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Ask HN: What happened to flutter? - sourabh86
There is this awesome app at flutterapp.com, I have been using this since some time now, but there have been no updates to it since they were acquired by Google. I thought now there might be frequent releases and many more supported gestures, but nope nothing! Anyone knows what happened?
======
dotcoma
This? ;-)
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?f&v=BeLZCy-
_m3s](http://www.youtube.com/watch?f&v=BeLZCy-_m3s)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Facebook & Twitter down? - philco
http://www.facebook.com
http://www.twitter.com - I get a page with the following text on it "www.weblogsinc.com"<p>and on Facebook.com I get 404 not found...?
======
jacobr
<http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/facebook.com>
~~~
philco
Yeah, both twitter and facebook are down for me, oh well. Palo Alto, CA
------
ColinWright
Fine for me - using both without a problem. UK.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
CDN Comparison - turrini
https://www.codeinwp.com/blog/maxcdn-vs-cloudflare-vs-cloudfront-vs-akamai-edge-vs-fastly/
======
havliktom
If you'd like a comparison from a customer point of view - here's a great
summary: [https://www.thetoptens.com/best-content-delivery-network-
cdn...](https://www.thetoptens.com/best-content-delivery-network-cdn-
providers/)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Untangling the mechanics of knots - kercker
http://news.mit.edu/2015/untangling-mechanics-knots-0908
======
Mithaldu
MIT has been confusing me to no end. Over the past year i've seen them act
like the worst scum of PR by using clickbait tiles, and weird actions like
disabling the fullscreen button so you don't leave their blog page. Somehow
that doesn't gel with my image of them actually doing good research.
~~~
rtkwe
It's pretty simple, they're not the same people. The news/PR arm is the one
making all those "worst scum of PR" decisions and the research is separate.
Science press has always been hyperbolic compared to the papers actually put
out.
------
elektromekatron
_" For example, a granny knot is much easier to undo, as its configuration of
twists creates weaker forces within the knot. For centuries, sailors have
observed such distinctions, choosing certain knots over others to secure
vessels — largely by intuition and tradition."_
This author does not know knots. Granny knots are weaker, but are generally
harder to undo than a reef as they pinch themselves up, whereas a reef can be
undone by holding both lines securely with their tails and just pushing, and
it is the combination of how easy they are to undo after being under strain
and the fact they lie flat, that makes the reef generally the preferred knot
to the granny.
~~~
JoeAltmaier
Agreed. In fact Ashley (definitive work: the Ashley book of Knots) requires a
knot to be easy (or at least possible) to un-do.
~~~
clort
Well, you get my upvote just for mentioning that massive tome .. but do they
not recognise knots which just cannot be undone? I can't check as my copy is
in storage but I'm thinking specifically of the fishermans blood knot, or
knots like a monkeys fist which aren't designed to be undone though perhaps
they are considered something else? I have a turks head on a pole on my boat
which I made some years ago, I'm pretty sure it could be undone, but not
easily as I think the end is tucked in to hide it.
~~~
blacksmith_tb
Yes, the constrictor knot comes to mind, for example. I am surprised there
isn't any discussion of the weakening of the line caused by the knot - in
fact, the 10 knots requiring 1,000 times the force makes me wonder why that
doesn't cause the line to fail (though I suppose the initial amount needed is
very small). I am also a little nonplussed by their dismissal of sailors'
knowledge as mere 'tradition', which seems like saying that the builders of
Notre Dame didn't really understand their engineering, but were just part of a
tradition of building...
~~~
JoeAltmaier
Glad you mentioned the 'constrictor' \- one of two knots invented in the 1900s
(all others of course documented in the 1800s and before) and by Ashley
himself (as I'm sure you already knew). What is the other knot?
------
MasterQueef
Can they also find out why a t-shirt I throw in the dryer comes out completely
inside out? Because that's really impressive.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The mystery of Google+ - pascal07
http://www.elezea.com/2013/07/google-plus-mystery/
======
diydsp
Google Plus is like the movie Dark City. It's a group of technical aliens
picking apart the human experience, trying different scenarios in order to
find out what the human soul is.
Once per day, humans wake up and find themselves in its meticulously-
constructed parallel universe, doing things as ordinary humans do on other
websites. Their activities, such as appreciating music and searching for
lovers, feel familiar, necessary and meaningful, but at the same time, the
unsettling atmosphere prevents the existential questions from settling deeply
repressed where they should be. Instead, we're left wondering, "Why are we
doing this here?" Isn't there something better? Is there a Shell Beach out
there somewhere? Couldn't I just do this all myself on 1999-style website and
live a more natural life?
Successful, albeit defunct, networks like MySpace work b/c above and beyond,
they were passionate about connecting people with things they want. e.g.
music... at all costs! Facebook reassures you that you dodged a bullet when
you didn't marry your high school sweetheart. Google Plus just screams "use
me. use me. use me for... everything or anything.. so that... um... so that
google can keep track of what's hip and make money while I don't." There's no
soul or love deep at the bottom.
There's a whole lot more I could say about passion, sacrifice, vulnerability,
and empty vs. full cabinets, but I have a customer to service now, so I'll
leave you with this hint: Germick is onto something with the google doodles.
Hire me as a consultant if you really want to pick my brain.
~~~
raldi
_> Germick is onto something with the google doodles._
Who?
~~~
diydsp
[http://www.ryangermick.com/?content=about](http://www.ryangermick.com/?content=about)
Ryan Germick leads the Google Doodle Team. This is his ol' portfolio website.
~~~
scholia
Interesting. I wonder what happened to Dennis Hwang, who started the whole
doodle thing....
------
tstactplsignore
Google+ is a UI disaster. Look at some of the basics. When the browser is
fully maximized, my screen can see 8 chats / contacts / "hangouts" / whatever
they're called in the sidebar on the right. On my Facebook chat sidebar, I can
see 14 contacts. When you refresh a G+ page, the open chats mysteriously
disappear. This cuts down on usage, because, for example, each time I go to
Facebook, my chats are still open and I can immediately continue from where I
left off. Google+ has 3 "toolbars" at the top of each page, taking up an
enormous amount of vertical space. Honestly, with the sidebars open, it feels
like you're working in a 500px x 500px window. For God's sake, the "About"
page doesn't even let you be in a relationship _with_ another member. The
"About" page also doesn't allow other users to see your interests, or favorite
books / TV / music. Essentially, G+ utterly fails to encapsulate everything
Facebook offers in this regards: when you first Facebook friend someone you
just met, you immediately get the basic information about their life: where
they stand romantically and what things they like.
There are other problems. Tagline? Bragging Rights? Skills? Links? Is G+ a
page for socializing or a resume?
I simply cannot fathom why some people in the tech industry think that G+ is
in any way a viable competitor to Facebook. Outside of the tech bubble, its
usage is nonexistent and unhelpful. It is cluttered with things people don't
want, and it lacks some of the basic things people DO want.
~~~
alan_cx
I look at G+, and as it happens GMail, and I just see a confusing mess. I have
to look at it for a second or two to sort of orientate my self, and let the
site sort of focus. I'm sure its the flat design lark we are currently in the
middle of. Last time I used facebook (I "deleted" my account a year or so ago)
it was far clearer and instantly use-able. Although looking at it now, using
one of my kid's profiles, its beginning to get as bad.
I might actually use G+ if it were use-able. I have joined two groups, purely
because people migrated there from Usenet, and every time I want to check
whats what in these groups I come away wishing I hadn't bothered. Good job the
one I most care about is a slow burner.
So, for me the biggest barrier is the UI.
------
roc
I'm increasingly convinced that the mystery amounts to "Circles working as
designed."
Let's say you've got a classic oversharer in your Aunt Sally. It's uncouth to
ignore her entirely, as sometimes she does post things you need/want to be
aware of, if for no other reason than to reduce family stress.
On Facebook, there's just a steady peppering of her stuff in all the other
posts. On Google+, you can shunt her off into a "noisy" circle and deal with
her posts maybe once a week.
But there-in lies the rub: any given dull Facebook session you can click on an
Aunt Sally link -- they're always right in front of you. But on Google+ even
if you've got 5 minutes to kill on a random link, clicking over to the "noisy"
circle carries a mental obligation to not just find a link, but actually do
the chore of scanning her aggregated posts to see if there was anything in
there about your Uncle's knee surgery or the family reunion.
So you generally don't do it. Or, if you do, you're not concentrating on the
random links, you're dealing with the chore of sorting the pile, and the
random links still aren't getting clicked.
And the flip side is that when you construct circles for your own sharing, you
may think you're sparing your gear-head uncle bob from all your links to
computing articles, not realizing that he actually _did_ read them from time
to time on Facebook.
Though this explanation does raise the question of "was the lost traffic
actually _valuable_?" as your killing 5 minutes on an Aunt Sally post, or
Uncle Bob skimming an anti-Facebook rant are certainly going to be page-views,
they're unlikely to have resulted in any sales or ad-clicks.
~~~
bradbeattie
I'd always thought that circles should have been two-sided. People should be
allow to create personas (channels for their profile) and choose which
channels a post is associated with. Others can then follow a person's
personas, not the person directly.
I admit that the idea gets a little clunky when you have to take into account
"I want to make a post that only people in my X circle can see", but I don't
see why that couldn't be worked in somehow.
~~~
VLM
You've pretty well described "communities".
"Tactile Keyboards" doesn't have much kitty pictures or religious quotes...
mostly.
------
MRSallee
I've been using G+ more frequently since the upgrades introduced at IO. It is
a better product now, and the photo sharing is quite good (at least compared
to Facebook and Twitter).
It is still a UX nightmare, however, and I imagine hat turns off a lot of
users that try to dabble in G+.
Communities seem to be the best draw for Google Plus right now, maybe because
it is otherwise difficult to converse with a large group of people (e.g.
friends, family) on G+.
------
gcb0
There's no mystery.
> is Google artificially inflating it's numbers while really dying a slow
> death
Yes.
Every free Google product that they don't know how to monetize is being moved
under g+ in an effort that g+ will be highly monetizable(?) In the future.
I have some 7 g+ accounts just for such logins.
~~~
k3n
Damnit, you're overcompensating for my refusal to join. I'm going to have to
refuse to join 6 more times now...
------
tim_hutton
The article says it's a mystery but then nails it:
_" In line with Google’s vision to organize the world’s information, the
focus on Google+ seems to be shifting to content more than relationships. ...
I wonder if Google is more interested in being Reddit (the front page of the
Internet), than it is in being a Facebook/Twitter clone (what your friends are
up to)."_
~~~
scholia
Problem with that is that G+ is an even worse version of Reddit than it is a
Facebook clone.
Reddit already has (a) anonymity; (b) a working karma system; (c) proper
threading; (d) organisation by subject/topic; (e) freedom to start new boards;
and (f) a lot more intelligent debate than G+. Fixing all of these G+
deficiencies in the current system looks a long way beyond Google's
capabilities, even if it wanted to.
The dog-slow operation of G+ and the extreme information-poverty of the UI
(which makes it impossible to scan topics quickly) add to G+'s problems in
being a pseudo-Reddit.
~~~
snowwrestler
I was with you until you said intelligent debate. Aside from a few pockets
like /r/askscience, Reddit is an awful place for an intelligent conversation.
I don't know if Google+ is worse, but there are great pockets there too (Linus
Tovalds for instance).
~~~
scholia
Reddit is certainly variable, but I often find the debates interesting. On G+,
I mostly see people on soapboxes: it's not so much debate as the defending of
entrenched positions....
------
BruceIV
Of course network effects are more important than technical factors for a
social network.
For what it's worth, I gave Google+ a pretty solid try when it came out, but
very little of my social network actually moved over there, and then I moved
to a new city and all my new friends were on Facebook instead, so I stopped
using G+.
~~~
VikingCoder
Why do you use Hacker News?
No, seriously.
I simply can't understand the logic of someone who says that they stopped
using G+, BECAUSE all of their friends are on Facebook... when they SAY THAT
on Reddit or Hacker News.
~~~
scholia
Hacker News and Reddit have lots of information and good discussions. People
use them because of the quality of the content, not because they know the
contributors.
People use Facebook because they know the people, and that's what makes the
content significant _to them_ but not to outsiders.
G+ simply doesn't have the ease of access or quality of content (links,
discussions) that you get on HN or Reddit, and it doesn't have your friends.
It fails at both.
~~~
VikingCoder
You personally don't find the quality of content on G+. I personally do.
Or at least, it's rewarding enough to make it ANOTHER site that I visit.
GMail, Facebook, Reddit, Hacker News, CNN, G+. I don't think G+ is going to
replace GMail, Facebook, Reddit, Hacker News, or CNN for me. But I don't
expect ANY of those sites, to replace any of the others. So it just boggles my
mind when people - on Reddit or Hacker News - comment that G+ didn't replace
Facebook, so therefore it is not valuable.
I think I've put a bit more effort into finding interesting people, Pages,
Communities, and #topics than you have, and I've been rewarded for my efforts.
Google+ doesn't have a Front Page like Reddit and HN do, that's true. But it
wasn't hard to get started finding stuff I care about.
~~~
scholia
Fair enough, but the whole idea of following _people_ to find _content_ just
makes it harder to find content on G+. On Reddit, you pick the topics that
interest you and the best content (in theory at least) gets upvoted.
Both Twitter and Reddit (and HN) pack a ton of info into small spaces so it's
very quick to scroll through and pick up new stuff, which is a major problem
with G+. The same info may be on G+ but, in my experience, it's a lot harder
to find. (And if do I find it, it's already been tweeted to death.)
Incidentally, it wasn't me who thought G+ should replace other services! I do
think it started as an attempt to replace Facebook, but as far as I can see,
it isn't a good substitute for anything I already use. Worse, it doesn't have
any unique attractions (unless you want Hangouts, which I don't).
~~~
VikingCoder
You don't need to follow people to find content - you can follow Pages,
Communities, and #topics. That makes it very similar to sub-Reddits.
I can scroll through my stream pretty quickly. j/k keys work great.
Reddit isn't a good substitute for anything I already use. It augments them.
Google+ is the same, it augments the things I already use.
A unique attraction for me is that when I +1 something, and later Google
Search, I can find my own +1'd things very, very quickly. That's a completely
unique feature.
Try to find anything you ever saw on Facebook or Reddit, for comparison.
~~~
scholia
I've not found any Pages or Communities that were worth the effort. And
however fast you page, you still end up viewing close to one item per page,
which is ridiculous. I want to see at least 10, preferably 20 or more. (Worse,
G+'s endless pages mean you never get very far down the stream even if you
try.)
------
ratscabies
It's no mystery. Google creeps people out. I am one of them. I read his
comments on Google plus, but you have to be on Google + to respond. Seems self
limiting if you are trying to find out why people don't use it. Facebook is at
least as creepy, but for some reason, people don't seem to care. Twitter, for
the most part, doesn't seem creepy. If I was to be on any of those 3, it would
probably be twitter, though I don't see any reason to use it, so I don't.
------
microtherion
I wonder about that “#2 social network” statistic. Google is, e.g. getting
increasingly pushy about getting me to merge my YouTube account with my G+
account. I wouldn’t be surprised if a sizable proportion of whatever metrics
went into determining that #2 ranking were derived from people who did NOT
think of themselves as “being active on G+”.
Of course the same is true for Facebook, to some extent, with an increasing
number of web sites outsourcing their comment system to them.
~~~
m_ram
Also, it's no longer possible to sign up for any Google product without
getting a G+ account with it. You can remove G+ from your account, but of
course 99.9% of people have no idea how to do this.
------
josephers
> Does it mean that Google did too little, too late? Does it mean that the
> major social networks are all syphoning off their own unique customers that
> will never overlap? Is Google inflating the numbers artificially and it is,
> in fact, dying a slow death? Or, most disturbingly, does it mean that having
> a superior product doesn’t matter as much as strong network effects?
I've never given Google Plus a serious try, but I would totally do it if it
had no barrier to entry
([http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000052.html](http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000052.html)).
If I could try it for a while, use it to create content, then know that if I
don't like it, I can go back to Twitter and others won't even know that I
left, then I would give Google Plus a try.
If Google Plus already does this.. well. Then it's marketing's fault.
~~~
freehunter
What are you looking for? Are you asking that Google+ automatically brings
over all of your Twitter followers? Or automatically Circles everyone you
follow? I don't think either of those would work out very accurately. I'm not
sure what the barrier is that is keeping you from trying Google+, considering
it's completely free, it's competitor is completely free, Google+'s character
limit is far greater than any of its competitors (so you can post the same
stuff)...
You literally can just try Google+ for a while, use it to create content, and
if you don't like it you can go back to Twitter. They're not mutually
exclusive. Google+ doesn't deactivate your Twitter account. It doesn't edit
your hosts file to null route www.twitter.com. There are even browser plugins
that let you post all your existing Twitter and Facebook content to Google+
retroactively, and let you post to both for future posts as well.
So... that doesn't seem like it's marketing's fault. I'm not sure what would
be a barrier to entry to something that's completely free and demands
literally nothing of you.
------
peterkelly
So perhaps Google⊉ might have been a more accurate name?
------
camus
Google should "remove" whatever person is in charge of the G+ UI/UX . It's so
bad . that's why people dont use it. Let the content breath , get ride of the
header that takes half the page on laptops , stuffs like that. It's like they
want it to fail ... It's funny with the load of money Google has , they
usually suck at UI. Youtube UI is good most of the time though some iterations
were bad.
Keep things simple for god sake. Even Microsoft is better at UI than Google.
~~~
PavlovsCat
Youtube is fine in most aspects, but I would consider comment system one of
the most broken things on the web, period. I know it's not easy to make good,
given the variety of audience and usage, much less "perfect", but I doubt
anyone is even trying.
How much of the quality of youtube comments can be attributed to this? Anyone
wanting to make a point or responding to one would rather post the video in a
forum and discuss it there. And considering that it's YOUtube, which means the
initial idea was that people talk into their camera, and others respond with
videos and comments, I wouldn't exactly call the comment system a gimmick
either. It would be nice to at least _theoretically_ be able to have actual
discussion on important videos, right where the video is. But no ^^
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
HOPE Conference Criticized for Allowing Far-Right Harassment - AndrewUnmuted
https://www.unicornriot.ninja/2018/hope-conference-criticized-for-allowing-far-right-harassment/
======
sp332
A couple more details:
[https://twitter.com/zenalbatross/status/1021429246047158272](https://twitter.com/zenalbatross/status/1021429246047158272)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Show HN: Breakapart: simple gestures on a physical keyboard - aehtyb
https://github.com/fanfare/breakapart/blob/master/README.md
======
wingerlang
You should allow it to be any number of keys. Imagine if touchpads had you do
gestures exactly in dedicated areas, it would kinda ruin the experience.
E.g. I thought it wasn't working because I accidentally used the wrong key.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
A Short Talk about Richard Feynman (2005) - danso
http://www.stephenwolfram.com/publications/short-talk-about-richard-feynman/
======
georgemcbay
Decent read but I vastly prefer W. Daniel Hillis' "Richard Feynman and The
Connection Machine" as it is actually more about Feynman (in his later years,
around the same time period as Wolfram's piece) rather than using him as a
jumping off point to remind everyone of how smart the guy writing the essay
is.
[http://longnow.org/essays/richard-feynman-connection-
machine...](http://longnow.org/essays/richard-feynman-connection-machine/)
~~~
baddox
Did you read the article, or did you just say what you think people are
supposed to say about anything Wolfram writes?
~~~
georgemcbay
I actually read the article but wasn't too surprised when he continually
inserted what I would consider too much of himself into it.
It doesn't directly bother me that Wolfram is an egotist, I don't have to deal
with him on a personal level, so why should I care? But he fancies himself a
writer (among other things) and I do think his constant need to insert himself
and his past accomplishments continually (even when his subject is ostensibly
something else) detracts a great deal from his writing and thus it is fair
game to call him out for it.
~~~
eruditely
I don't think we read the same article, obviously you are forcing what you
have decided his identity is and are trying to fit it into the article. Just
like how people see giraffes in clouds when they are just clouds.
------
thearn4
> _You know, I remember a time—it must have been the summer of 1985—when I 'd
> just discovered a thing called rule 30. That's probably my own all-time
> favorite scientific discovery. And that's what launched a lot of the whole
> new kind of science that I've spent 20 years building. [See A New Kind of
> Science, page 27.]_
Oh, Wolfram...
Some self-promotional aspects aside, this was a pretty interesting write-up
about the personal side of Feynman.
One quote of his from this article stands out: _" peace of mind is the most
important prerequisite for creative work."_ I'd be very interested to know
what he would have thought about the current state of academia and scientific
research.
~~~
Fede_V
There is a similar statement by Higgs (the guy who won the Nobel prize for
physics for the discovery of the boson named after him) about how the insane
pressure to constantly publish and produce papers comes at the expense of
being able to think really hard about difficult problems.
It's a difficult problem. Universities have limited funding, and want to
attract professors that get lots of grants to self finance their own research.
To get lots of grants, you need to publish lots of high impact papers. To
publish lots of papers quickly, you need a lot of PhD students to supervise,
and you need to work in a hot and rapidly moving field. This leads to
professors acting as glorified managers who spend all their time churning out
grants, and spend an incredibly tiny fraction of their time working on their
own science.
~~~
chii
the classic problem of "you get 'promoted' to your level of incompetence".
------
sytelus
I just don't know if I'm feeling sad or amused after reading this. I've read 3
full books about just Feynman (one of them twice) and still today I keep
coming across new factoids and quotes about him every now and than I hadn't
known before. If aliens came down tomorrow and asked me to pick the finest
sample of humanity across space and time, I would pick Feynman. Without a
doubt.
And here is Wolfram, a burned out prodigy busy managing a commercial company
and doing classic Cargo Cult science part time with little respect from peers
and with a seminal work called New "Kind" Of Science. He should be thankful
that he actually met living and breathing Feynman and even had opportunity to
work with him (although Feynman never seem to have mentioned Wolfram
anywhere). Instead he goes on to put quotes likes these whose only purpose
seems to show how limited Feynman was and how Wolfram didn't had those
limitations:
_What mattered to him was the process of finding it. And he was often quite
competitive about it._
Really Wolfram? Where is your Nobel prize? Oh, I know you are waiting for the
one on new "kind" of science.
_Some scientists (myself probably included) are driven by the ambition to
build grand intellectual edifices. I think Feynman—at least in the years I
knew him—was much more driven by the pure pleasure of actually doing the
science._
No Mr. Wolfram. You are driven by egoistic desire to leave your name
everywhere and people worshiping you for your intellect on their knees.
_And he was a great calculator. All around perhaps the best human calculator
there 's ever been._
Yeah, he calculated some of the greatest mysteries in known physics.
The ego of Wolfram dribbles all over:
_And one day he calls me and says: "OK, Wolfram, I can't crack it. I think
you're onto something." Which was very encouraging._
_And it was nice of him to write such nice things about me._
~~~
stiff
None of those quotes are derogatory toward Feynman, and I don't see how
Wolfram being pleased by Feynman liking his idea says anything about Wolframs
ego. In fact, this was very modest for Wolfram standards, and a much more
interesting and cultured homage to a friend, than the ones by Susskind or
Gell-Mann:
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpjwotips7E](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpjwotips7E)
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnMsgxIIQEE](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnMsgxIIQEE)
I must say I in general don't understand the hate a lot of people have for
Wolfram, he clearly is a bit narcissistic, but what he writes and says is
always otherwise genuinely interesting, even if not as earth shattering as he
would like. Certainly his work is not cargo cult science, he did genuinely
advance the research in cellular automata, and he even did some lasting minor
contribution to physics in his early days:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Wolfram#Particle_physic...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Wolfram#Particle_physics)
~~~
m0nastic
I don't know if the vehement dislike for Wolfram is all necessarily rooted in
the same underlying cause. I suspect different people have different reasons
for it.
I think there is a kind of idealized scientist that nerds want to look up to.
A great sense of humility, a clear sense of purpose, an unwavering commitment
to reason and rationality. Yet I can think of no famous scientist that
actually fits that mold.
Another poster brings up Kanye West, someone that people seethe over that he
isn't humble enough.
I read in the parent's comment a sense of great frustration, that somehow
Wolfram isn't being sufficiently reverent to someone who they clearly idolize.
I can almost see spittle forming at the corners of their mouth. It makes me a
little sad.
Wolfram certainly doesn't do himself any favors by reinforcing the narrative
that he has a big ego, and always working in a reference to his book (which I
think this essay is much more appropriate for then how he shoe-horns it into
his other writing).
But I get it. People don't like it when you toot your own horn. Although if I
spent ten years writing a giant science tome I'd probably want to bring it up
all the time as well. I suspect Wolfram is aware of this perception of him (I
think I've actually read him mention it before). I kind of hope he ignores it
though.
~~~
shadowfox
> A great sense of humility
> But I get it. People don't like it when you toot your own horn
You have a point. But often enough people do not like it (only) when _others_
toot their horn. They have no qualms about tooting their own horn (usually
under some notion of "promoting yourself").
------
visakanv
This was the quote that really resonated with me:
"You know, it's funny. For all Feynman's independence, he was surprisingly
diligent. I remember once he was preparing some fairly minor conference talk.
He was quite concerned about it. I said, "You're a great speaker; what are you
worrying about?" He said, "Yes, everyone thinks I'm a great speaker. So that
means they expect more from me."
It reminds me of Daniel Chambliss' findings in "The Mundanity of Excellence":
"Swimmers like Lundquist, who train at competition-level intensity, therefore
have an advantage: arriving at a meet, they are already accustomed to doing
turns correctly, taking legal starts, doing a proper warmup, and being
aggressive from the outset of the competition. If each day of the season is
approached with a seriousness of purpose, then the big meet will not come as a
shock.
Feynman's diligence was not at all surprising. We cultivate this idea of
eccentric geniuses. But it's precisely the diligence- to little details, over
years and decades- that makes all the difference.
\- [http://www.visakanv.com/blog/2014/01/the-mundanity-of-
excell...](http://www.visakanv.com/blog/2014/01/the-mundanity-of-excellence-
by-daniel-chambliss/)
------
danso
Kind of sad to see this, or at least what Wolfram perceived of the situation:
> _It did have some limits, though. I think he never really believed it
> applied to human affairs, for example. Like when we were both consulting for
> Thinking Machines in Boston, I would always be jumping up and down about how
> if the management of the company didn 't do this or that, they would fail.
> He would just say: "Why don't you let these people run their company; we
> can't figure out this kind of stuff." Sadly, the company did in the end
> fail. But that's another story._
I don't believe that tech/computers/science is the end all of improving human
existence. But sometimes, the systems we construct _are_ machines, in the
worst way. I wonder if what Feynman meant that they _could_ "figure it out",
but it was either beneath them, or, Feynman was wise/cynical enough to know
that that their kind of individual intellect had no real power in that realm
of political and collective human affairs.
In a way, it's nice that a genius is introspective enough to know that
intellect and cleverness, especially by individuals alone, can't be
efficiently applied to the business concerns that frustrated Wolfram. On the
other hand, many of us below Feynman's knack and energy for problem-solving
would say the same thing about the physics that he _did_ get around to working
out.
------
GuiA
The bit about how Feynman organized his life is particularly interesting. He
was quite the character, and became extremely successful because he was able
to thrive in his academic environment. I wonder if a personality like Feynman
would flourish today?
~~~
Scienz
The part of "Surely You're Joking" where he cracks the safe at Los Alamos
makes me wonder more if he would have gone the way of Aaron Swartz, in today's
world.
------
acidburnNSA
The Wikipedia journey I just took thanks to this was amazing: Rule 30 ->
cellular automata -> Conway's Game of Life -> Golly_(program). This lead to
the package manager and then an hour of fascinating entertainment going
through the samples. Wow.
------
vonnik
can wolfram write anything that doesn't compliment wolfram?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Bypassing UAC on Windows 10 Using Disk Cleanup - djsumdog
https://enigma0x3.net/2016/07/22/bypassing-uac-on-windows-10-using-disk-cleanup/
======
ocdtrekkie
Pardon if I don't understand something obvious, but how is UAC "not a security
boundary"?
~~~
zamalek
That's news to me too. Fixing this should be as simple as changing the rights
on the folder before copying to it.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
10 Scientific Expeditions That Were Doomed From the Start - nickcobb
http://brainz.org/10-scientific-expeditions-were-doomed-start/
======
infinity
The story of the expedition of Burke and Wills is also part of the History of
the camels in Australia - a story which is really something special.
In the year 1860 the ship Chinsurah arrived from Karachi in India at
Melbourne. It brought 24 dromedaries (one-humped Arabian camels) to Australia
and also some camel herders, called "Afghans". The camels were supposed to be
part of the expedition of Burke and Wills, which was financially supported by
the Royal Society of Victoria and aimed at crossing the australian continent
from south to north.
Two years earlier the Victorian Exploration Committee employed Mr. George
James Landells to buy camels for £3000 and recruit also some camel herders.
Six further camels were bought by the Victorian Exploration Committee,
imported to Australia on the ship Malta by Mr. White & Co.
On Mr. Landells explicit wishes, 60 gallons of rum were added to the supplies
of the expedition - not for himself, but for the camels! Mr. Landells had
convinced the Committee, that rum would prevent scurvy and improve the
survival of the camels in the desert.
On the 20th of August 1860 the expedition started with much public attention
from Melbourne with 26 camels, four camels stayed at home, because they were
ill.
------
SkyMarshal
Drop the '10' in the title. Makes the submission sound like supermarket
tabloid linkbait. As common and effective on peoples' ape subroutines as it
is, it's not a writing style one should strive to emulate.
<http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html>
_If the original title begins with a number or number + gratuitous adjective,
we'd appreciate it if you'd crop it. E.g. translate "10 Ways To Do X" to "How
To Do X," and "14 Amazing Ys" to "Ys." Exception: when the number is
meaningful, e.g. "The 5 Platonic Solids."_
------
arethuza
Fergus Fleming has written an excellent book on some of the more daring/crazy
British expeditions of the 19th century:
"Barrow's Boys: A Stirring Story of Daring, Fortitude, and Outright Lunacy"
[http://www.amazon.com/Barrows-Boys-Stirring-Fortitude-
Outrig...](http://www.amazon.com/Barrows-Boys-Stirring-Fortitude-
Outright/dp/0802137946/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1317996925&sr=8-1)
To my amazement after reading this book I discovered that one of the few
bodies recovered from the Franklin expedition is buried a couple of hundred
meters from my home in Edinburgh.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin%27s_lost_expedition>
[http://hidden-tracks-book.blogspot.com/2010/05/lt-irving-
mem...](http://hidden-tracks-book.blogspot.com/2010/05/lt-irving-
memorial.html)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Spring Hibernate Integration - javabuddy
http://java-diaries.blogspot.com/2011/02/spring-hibernate-integration.html
======
DerekH
Did you reverse engineer your entities from a database? If not, you should add
that as well. That way, if the database changes, you can automate the creation
of those entities. I like to follow "don't repeat yourself."
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Mentat Wiki - pmoriarty
http://www.ludism.org/mentat
======
dunkelheit
These are useful techniques but they kind of miss the point. They all
concentrate on the question of how to do something, but completely ignore the
(much more interesing in my opinion) question of what to do. Besides raw
intellectual ability good answer to this question requires creativity and also
philosophical and ethical skills (that includes the ability to make tough
decisions). Much harder.
Worth remembering who the mentats were in the Dune universe - servants of
those in power.
~~~
DiabloD3
Actually, I'm surprised the Dune universe never explored people who undertook
at least some mentat training, at least in secret, to become better leaders,
instead of merely relying on that group of human computers.
~~~
beschizza
Isn't Paul Atreides being secretly trained as such by Hawat? Or was it just
Bene Gesserit training?
~~~
DiabloD3
A bit of column A, a bit of column B. See my other reply.
------
jjcc
It is interesting that no comments mention the "SmartDrug" , or nootropics.
There was a rumor that half of Silicon Valley CEOs use Modafinil,an important
nootropics that enhance human's brain.
There are some new breakthrough in recent years about psychedelics that with
low dosages, psychedelics can be more efficient nootropics. Psychedelics might
give normal people some visualization capabilities that most famous geniuses
have. It's good for graduate students to understand complicated math or
engineering concept. There could be more new discoveries in Science because
more normal people have genius brains.
Steve Jobs mentioned using LSD was one of two or three most important things
in his life.That statement might be ignored by most people.It's quite likely
that Jobs could never be the Jobs we know without LSD.
~~~
someman7
The Jobs we know is no genius. The only extraordinary thing about him is the
ability to exploit people. As for psychadelics, they'll give you the ability
to visualise things that normal people don't alright. Like random geometric
shapes even after you've stopped using.
~~~
bordercases
He was alright: [https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/finding-the-next-
einste...](https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/finding-the-next-
einstein/201111/was-steve-jobs-smart-heck-yes)
------
Herodotus38
I didn't check every link but I find it interesting that under "improving
intelligence", there is no mention of the generations of work previous
thinkers have put in to the question about how to be wiser/intelligent, or the
question of what that means.
I'm not saying the answer lies in past philosophers, but I think it would be
silly to discount previous work done in this area and focus on video games and
drugs.
~~~
pmoriarty
Which thinkers did you have in mind?
The Mentat Wiki has entries on mnemonic techniques like the Major System[1],
Peg System[2], and the Loci System (aka Memory Palace)[3], which are hundreds
if not thousands of years old.
It's not really fair to characterize the wiki as being all about "drugs and
video games".
[1] -
[http://www.ludism.org/mentat/MajorSystem](http://www.ludism.org/mentat/MajorSystem)
[2] -
[http://www.ludism.org/mentat/PegSystem](http://www.ludism.org/mentat/PegSystem)
[3] -
[http://www.ludism.org/mentat/LociSystem](http://www.ludism.org/mentat/LociSystem)
~~~
Herodotus38
I was thinking of philosophers like the Greeks (Socrates, Plato, etc...),
Jewish (Maimonides, Goan, etc...), Chinese (Confucius, Sun Tzu), Europeans
(Descartes, Hume), American (Autobio of Benj Franklin, other autodidacts like
Hamilton, Jefferson, etc). Now, a good argument against my list is that few of
these sources have actual methods for becoming more intelligent, aside from
general advice on how to live "a good life" (paraphrasing) which will allow
one to be wise.
I hadn't seen the systems you mentioned so I will check those out, thanks.
I can see how my comment came across as implying it was all drugs and video
games, which it is not and I should have chosen my words better. I was trying
to convey the overall feel that I got from the site that becoming more
intelligent can be done with quick interventions (which is entirely possible,
but I think unknown).
This wiki is in its early stages so I can't fault it much. What I would like
to see is a source of evidence behind each link it lists for improvements in
memory, creative thinking, problem solving, etc... so that interventions can
at least be ranked. The reality is presently we can't measure these things
very well. Another nice addition would be early childhood interventions that
have been associated with increased intelligence (something we do have data
on).
------
maxerickson
Interesting that there is no mention of better ideas.
(for example, people will choose to internalize ideas that are economically
valuable, and if they happen to have applicability beyond that, they are
likely to end up better thinkers as a by product of seeking that economic
advantage)
------
chm
Nice project, I'll be browsing it for the next hour or so. I do have a
suggestion, however. Take the MemoryTechnique[1] page for example. It should
begin with a very short introduction to the subject and be followed by a
suggested reading order. The links are good but they need to be presented
differently in order for users to find what they want more quickly.
[1]:
[http://www.ludism.org/mentat/MemoryTechnique](http://www.ludism.org/mentat/MemoryTechnique)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
RFC 2119: Key Words for Use in RFCs to Indicate Requirement Levels - zaksoup
http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2119
======
zaksoup
Was digging through the RFC for HOTP and came across this. Thought it was very
interesting that there are actual definitions for these terms, or that they
(the definitions) were apparently needed in the first place.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Experts Want to Give Control of America's Nuclear Missiles to AI - ForFreedom
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/59n3y5/experts-want-to-give-control-of-americas-nuclear-missiles-to-ai
======
hacktember
"Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they
didn’t stop to think if they should."
------
nabla9
Instead of delegating launch authority to more people in the case of
decapitation attack, let's just automate it. Seems like a big conceptual jump
without a good reason.
~~~
Gibbon1
I'll give you a reason. In my fifty years I've noticed that in the US at least
leaders are becoming increasing responsibility adverse. Fearful even.
------
one2zero
I'm guessing they've never seen some of James Cameron's early works.
~~~
justlaughingatt
literally what i was thinking as i read the title
------
rolph
when asked "lets play global thermonuclear war"
even alexa suggests a nice game of chess
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Super long-term kernel support - _emacsomancer_
https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/749530/86a6011785a95659/
======
znpy
> The first SLTS kernel will be based on the 4.4 LTS release and will be
> maintained by Ben Hutchings
That guy is a genius: he probably managed to secure a job for at least the
next twenty years.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Token Fixation in Paypal - johnterry_cfc
http://homakov.blogspot.com/2014/01/token-fixation-in-paypal.html
======
pothibo
I'm annoyed every time homakov posts a vulnerability. He writes in a way that
belittle his target, like everyone is stupid except himself.
Also, I really dislike how he handles his disclosures.
~~~
znowi
His writings do carry a condescending tone, with a faint "l33t hax0r" taste. I
think it might be a case of a sudden fame multiplied by the teen spirit :)
~~~
eli
I would give people the benefit of the doubt. Especially when they're writing
in a language that isn't their mother tongue.
------
primitivesuave
I hear from a source very high up in PayPal that a large part of their
codebase is evolving at this point and that in the next couple months, we
should be seeing a wide range of developer-friendly changes. I'm not
advocating PayPal nor do I have any financial interest in PayPal, just
pointing out that they acknowledge how far behind they are and desperately
trying to catch up.
~~~
ExpiredLink
> _how far behind they are and desperately trying to catch up_
They are merely the market leader ...
~~~
DiabloD3
When you're the market leader, you have to work twice as hard as the next guy
in line. Paypal has at least 2 companies plus Bitcoin threatening to replace
them at any given moment.
~~~
primitivesuave
PayPal doesn't have to worry about being replaced as much as it has to worry
about being marginalized. If a developer who has never integrated payment into
their app asks me what platform to use, I'm going to answer "Stripe" without
hesitation because they make it very simple for developers to use. PayPal
needs to shift its focus toward making the developer experience better,
because right now their documentation is a steaming pile of shit and their web
interface is unintuitive.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
FBI will no longer accept FOIA requests by email - rmason
https://techcrunch.com/2017/02/06/fbi-foia-fax-march-2017/
======
shawnee_
Previously-accumulated USDA data (that has already been paid for and is
technically a public good) has been blacked out also. Source:
[https://sunlightfoundation.com/tracking-u-s-government-
data-...](https://sunlightfoundation.com/tracking-u-s-government-data-removed-
from-the-internet-during-the-trump-administration/)
_The USDA announced that public access to that information would now be
mediated through Freedom of Information Act requests._
There was a dog food poisoning reported [earlier this
week]([http://patch.com/illinois/hydepark/s/g0ven/illinois-
company-...](http://patch.com/illinois/hydepark/s/g0ven/illinois-company-sold-
dog-food-tainted-with-euthanasia-drug-fda)) The "supplier" of the poison dog
food is probably pretty happy the public can't figure out which other pet food
manufacturers (Besides Evanger's) they vendor.
This move was likely designed to hide facts from the public and to make
investigative journalism a lot more difficult. Public health and safety data
needs to be public and squelching it is akin to public endangerment.
[edit: thx for grammar correction.]
~~~
pdabbadabba
Well, there's a (hopefully) easy way to solve this problem: submit a FOIA
request for the missing data, and post it publicly.
Does anyone know of a place to post such things?
Edit: To be clear, I think there is no good reason for this to be hidden
behind a FOIA wall. But, assuming that we're stuck with the FOIA wall...
~~~
anigbrowl
It's not going to be easy or cheap and there will be a significant discovery
problem for others. To be effective, we need to abandon the nonprofit silo
model and switch towards an open unitary model, a wiki-web built on
relationships rather than centered on ownership or exclusive curation content.
~~~
pdabbadabba
I understand the first half of your post, but not the second. Could you
explain? (Or just drop a link to something I can read?)
------
morisy
Someone pointed out that there's technically a web portal that requesters can
use. That web portal, however, goes beyond the law to add a bunch of
restrictions including:
* Limiting you to one request per day.
* Not allowing you to request internal memos and a variety of other classes of documents.
* The website doesn't work on weekends.
More detailed look how bad the website they launched to replace email is:
[https://www.muckrock.com/news/archives/2017/feb/07/fbi-
foia-...](https://www.muckrock.com/news/archives/2017/feb/07/fbi-foia-portal-
bad/)
~~~
elfchief
Websites that don't work on weekends (of which I've seen more than a few) are
really quite possibly the stupidest thing I've ever seen. I shudder to think
that somewhere there was a requirements document that details what days the
site should and shouldn't work...
~~~
chias
I had to file some forms on irs.gov about a year ago, and the web portal was
only open on weekdays between 9am and 5pm eastern time.
My fantasy explanation is that the form feeds directly into a printer, and
they have a guy who takes the printouts, staples them, and puts them in a box.
If the website is open 24/7 then when Stapleman shows up to work Monday
morning the backlog might be discouraging. Not to mention if the printer jams
during off hours and nobody's there to notice, filings may be lost. Or maybe
I'm overthinking this.
~~~
metaobject
I realize you're speculating, but ...
I'm not sure if the IRS is trending towards a paperless office or not (is that
even still a thing?), but triggering a print job for every form submitted via
a web portal sounds very wasteful. I'd hope they have have some sort of
workflow system in place instead.
~~~
chias
Another theory I have involves concessions to webserver unions and/or
acknowledging the need for time off to take care of the child processes. These
fantasies are the only place I can find closure and sanity when my carefully
filled out submission is rejected by the website because it is now 4:01 pm and
that's Miller Time on the east coast.
~~~
phil21
You're actually closer than you realize :)
It's a government worker union thing. They don't have a contract for being
called at 4am when the website breaks, so you better shut it off at 5pm.
If you think this is the stupidest thing in government you should ensure you
_never_ have to work in that environment over your lifetime :)
~~~
virusduck
I'm not sure there are many government web services run by actual government
employees.
------
jonknee
It would be interesting to fax in a FOIA request to find out the reasoning
behind the decision to not allow email FOIA requests. And how the restrictions
for the web portal came to be since they are not required by law.
~~~
morisy
Someone filed a request here:
[https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-
america-10/foi...](https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-
america-10/foia-portal-only-32948/)
The page gets updated as documents come back.
------
coldcode
Well they don't respond with information either, so they may as well only
accept carrier pigeons.
~~~
dickbasedregex
I don't know why people have down voted you. It's not as if the US government
has a history of accessibility and transparency.
Call a spade a spade.
~~~
jjawssd
Obama promised a new era of US government transparency and Wikileaks delivered
it
------
digitalneal
Who is going to be the hero that converts FBI FOIA emails into automated faxes
and offers it as a service?
~~~
morisy
My non-profit, MuckRock, offers that service for the FBI and 6,000 other
agencies:
[https://www.muckrock.com/foi/create/](https://www.muckrock.com/foi/create/)
You can also browse almost 30,000 other requests filed by users:
[https://www.muckrock.com/foi/](https://www.muckrock.com/foi/)
~~~
a_t48
Nice. My first thought was that somebody should make such a service. My second
thought was that somebody probably already had. Do you get upticks in traffic
when things show up in the news?
~~~
morisy
Definitely. Trick is keeping things running smoothly during news cycles and
off, but there's been a lot more interest the past few months around a number
of topics.
------
un-devmox
This is another troubling action meant to chip away at what government
transparency we have left. I'm sure that the argument could be made that
government agencies are "inundated" with requests that they can't keep up with
and all this is too "costly."
This is worrisome! Will the feds start charging fees to view electronic docs
like the State of Wyoming? [http://www.wyomingnews.com/news/wyoming-court-ok-
to-charge-f...](http://www.wyomingnews.com/news/wyoming-court-ok-to-charge-
for-viewing-electronic-
records/article_47fa4470-b791-11e6-aaf6-fbca37317729.html)
------
yAnonymous
[https://faxzero.com/](https://faxzero.com/)
~~~
feld
Would be great if they offered free faxes for FOIA requests :)
~~~
bpchaps
(I'm attempting to make something that does something similar, if anyone's
interested in helping out in any way.)
~~~
rabidonrails
I'm the cofounder of Phaxio (a faxing API). We're interested in helping out
too!
~~~
dopamean
When and why did you create a faxing API? I know that may seem like a snarky
question but I really mean it seriously. I'm someone who hasn't sent a fax in
at least 10 years and so I just assumed it was a nearly dead form of
communication.
~~~
rabidonrails
We created Phaxio several years ago because the project we were working on
needed a fax API and the options at the time were all terrible.
I don't personally send lots of faxes but businesses send millions of them and
it's a crucial part of their workflow.
~~~
dopamean
Cool. Thanks for the reply.
------
fjdlwlv
If I don't see a privately operated website providing a workaround within a
week, I'll be embarrassed. The Internet views censorship as damage and routes
around it.
Corporations have been profiting from your contact information for years, now
you can donate your contact information for the public good.
See also [https://www.muckrock.com/](https://www.muckrock.com/)
------
weberc2
Someone could set up an email->fax interface for FOIA requests.
~~~
cbhl
HelloFax and eFax are already a thing -- the problem is that faxes require
going through POTS, and are much more expensive to send than emails.
~~~
fjdlwlv
POTS only costs as much as a phone call (which can be automated over VOIP),
which isn't free but for FOIA workload is close enough.
------
zaidf
There should be a SaaS API that let's you file, track and access data from
your FOIA requests.
~~~
huac
MuckRock does a lot of this.
------
c0nfused
This is essentially FUD.
There is a web portal [https://efoia.fbi.gov](https://efoia.fbi.gov)
The terms are a bit restrictive but not incredibly so.
FBI eFOIPA: Terms of Service: Please read before continuing...
Not all requests can be fulfilled using the eFOIPA system. You will be
notified if your request cannot be serviced through the eFOIPA system.
A valid e-mail address will be required for authentication. Requests for fee
waivers will require additional documentation.
Submissions are limited to events, organizations, first party requests
(Privacy Act requests), and deceased individuals. You will be required to
upload proof of death for requests for records responsive to deceased
individuals who are younger than 100 years of age. Acceptable formats include
.pdf or .doc. Other formats will not be accepted.
If you are making a request on an event, organization, or deceased individual,
the primary form of correspondence that you will receive from the FBI will be
e-mail. If you are making a request on a first party (Privacy Act request),
the primary form of correspondence that you will receive from the FBI will be
through standard mail.
If you are making a request on a living third party, your request cannot
currently be serviced using the eFOIPA system. The combined file size of all
attachments may not exceed 30 megabytes.
You are limited to making one request per day and one request per submission.
It is recommended that you visit [http://www.justice.gov/oip/doj-foia-
regulations](http://www.justice.gov/oip/doj-foia-regulations) if you have any
additional questions or concerns prior to submitting your Freedom of
Information Act or Privacy Act (FOIPA) request to the FBI.
An FBI Criminal History Summary Check—often referred to as a criminal
background check, criminal history record, police background clearance,
police/good conduct certificate, or “rap sheet”—is a listing of certain
information taken from fingerprint submissions retained by the FBI in
connection with arrests and, in some instances, federal employment,
naturalization, or military service. It can also be used to satisfy a
requirement to live, work, or travel in a foreign country; for employment or
licensing; or for adopting a child. To obtain a copy of your FBI Criminal
History Summary Check, please contact the FBI’s Criminal Justice Services
Division (CJIS) in Clarksburg, West Virginia by writing to Federal Bureau of
Investigation, CJIS Division, Attention: Record Request, 1000 Custer Hollow
Road, Clarksburg, WV 26306.
~~~
Lagged2Death
_This is essentially FUD. There is a web portal..._
The linked article points all of this out in the first few sentences. FUD?
~~~
robert_foss
Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt
~~~
mijoharas
I think they were questioning how the person could class this as Fear,
Uncertainty and Doubt rather than asking for a definition.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ireland Lacrosse sacrifice place in 'Medicine Game' tournament for greater good - bryanrasmussen
https://www.rte.ie/sport/other-sport/2020/0905/1163463-iroquois-nationals-lacrosse-ireland-world-games/
======
chrisbennet
Reminds me of Jack Sock vs. Lleyton Hewitt act of sportsmanship:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvhLq09FaZg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvhLq09FaZg)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Bash on Ubuntu on Windows - aymenim
https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/commandline/2016/04/06/bash-on-ubuntu-on-windows-download-now-3/
======
siscia
I am a little scared from the distinction we are start to make between
"computers" and "developers' computers"
In most computer nowadays you cannot code (tables and smartphones), are
computers doomed to be an expensive tool for few "nerd" ? What will be the
impact on computer literacy ?
~~~
omaranto
What do you mean you "cannot" code on tablets and smartphones? There are nice
interpreters and compilers in the official app stores for major mobiles OS,
aren't there? I've used Python on iOS, Android and Windows Phone. Also J,
Ocaml, some dialects of Lisp, C# and Ruby, that I can remember now (each
language on at least one of those OSes, sometimes more than one). Not to
mention these devices all come with web browsers which means at the very least
you can use JavaScript (I've done at least one Project Euler question on an
iPod Touch in CoffeeScript standing in line at the bank.)
The tablet I currently own cost me $80 and came with a C# compiler
preinstalled! (Maybe that's an extreme example: It is a Windows tablet, and
Android or iOS only come with JavaScript JIT compilers preinstalled.)
~~~
lossolo
I tried to code on smartphone, never again. I am x times more productive on
desktop.
~~~
onion2k
I've recently started using Termux on my phone with a bluetooth keyboard - I'm
as productive as I would be doing dev over SSH. All the tools I'd use on a
server are there (node, git, nano, etc). I've written a small API server with
it and it wasn't a disaster. Admittedly I'm more productive when I'm on my
laptop with Atom and a couple of monitors, but if that isn't an option I can
still do work. It's a bonus rather than an alternative.
------
atgreen
As I understand it, Microsoft has copied the Linux kernel system call
interfaces and provided their own underlying implementation.
Given that Microsoft supported Oracle's view that the structure, sequence, and
organization of the Java programming interfaces were covered by copyright law,
then surely they would also agree that the same holds true for the Linux
kernel system call interfaces.
I don't like the APIs-are-copyrightable decision, but given that's the current
state, why aren't we talking about how this is a violation of the Linux kernel
copyright license -- the GPL?
~~~
jjuel
Do you really think a multi billion dollar company like Microsoft wouldn't
have their legal team all over this? Do you not think they would have
researched this out. Discussed their implementation, and made sure everything
they were doing was going to meet the GPL copyright standards?
~~~
osweiller
This same "multi billion dollar" company had an AI bot tweeting Nazi
propaganda a week ago. They spectacularly failed in their xbox one release,
having to completely retool and regroup. Their Windows Phone efforts remain a
complete disaster and are now doomed to failure.
The whole "they're a big company...don't you think they've thought of this!"
argument (and its many "do you really think they'll lose?" variations) is
_always_ a fallacy. That doesn't make the argument about the copyright of ABIs
valid, but at the same time the notion that Microsoft is big therefore they
must be right is absurd.
~~~
dubcanada
Well if we really believe the bot was AI, then it wasn't Microsoft's bot. It
was was it's own "artificial intelligence".
But the rest of those have nothing to do with their legal team. They wouldn't
implement a copy of another OS into this OS without making sure it was legal
to do so.
~~~
fizzbatter
I think the AI comment was more to the fact that, they didn't safeguard
against _seemingly_ obvious outcomes - such as internet trolls trying to get
the bot to say bad things. Many companies put no-go words during username
creation, hitler, racist words, etc - so why didn't Microsoft?
It might not have been simple to do, but still - hard not to see the outcome.
~~~
rmwaite
lol what the hell are you talking about. this thing is SUPPOSED to learn. you
can't have ai and restrict what it learns, it defeats the entire purpose.
isn't this the same thing that happens to people too? they go around the
internet and soak up knowledge, sometimes racist, harmful, misinformation, but
they soak it up nonetheless.
~~~
fizzbatter
Well, to be clear, i didn't say restrict what it learns - i said safeguard
against outcomes. Or, are you arguing that Microsoft knew the bot would slur
racist insults in a laughably short timeframe, and only planned to run the bot
for said timeframe?
The very fact that they had to pull the plug seems to suggest that it was not
desired, and as such, it should have been safe guarded against.
An example safeguard being, limit what it can say. If it has racist/etc stuff
in it, literally don't send to twitter. The bot still learns, the algos don't
change, and Microsoft still gets to see what the given AI will behave like in
full public. And above all else, the bot isn't a Microsoft branded Hail Hitler
AI.
It sounds like you believe what happened is perfectly within reason - if
that's the case, why do you believe they pulled the plug?
~~~
scrupulusalbion
Did they even have any sort of filter? If they at least blacklisted these
words [0], then that seems like a reasonable enough effort on its own.
However, these developers would have had to be living in a bubble to not know
about trolls from 4chan.
All in all, this is a lesson that some high-profile person/group eventually
had to learn on our behalf. Now, when an unknowing manager asks why your chat
bot needs to avoid certain offensive phrases because, "our clientele aren't a
bunch of racists", you can just point him to this story. The actual racists
are tame by comparison to what trolls will do to your software.
[0] = [https://github.com/shutterstock/List-of-Dirty-Naughty-
Obscen...](https://github.com/shutterstock/List-of-Dirty-Naughty-Obscene-and-
Otherwise-Bad-Words)
------
captainmuon
I have to say after the initial excitement, I'm a bit disappointed about how
this is implemented. Apparently, there is no or little interaction between the
Linux world and the Windows world in this system. I don't see the benefits
over running a classical Linux-as-a-process like coLinux, or something like
Cygwin or MinGW.
The option to run unmodified executables is nice if you have closed-source
linux binaries, but they are rare, and this is directed towards developers and
not deployment anyway (where this might be a useful feature).
When I heard "Linux subsystem", I was hoping for a fuller integration. Mapping
Linux users to Windows users, Linux processes to Windows processes etc.. I
want to do "top" in a cmd.exe window and see windows and linux processes. Or
for a more useful example, I want to use bash scripts to automate windows
tools, e.g. hairy VC++ builds. And I thought it would be possible to throw a
dlopen in a Linux program and load Windows DLLs. Since I don't need to run
unmodified Linux binaries, I don't see what this brings to me over cygwin.
I am hoping though that this might be a bit more stable (due to ubuntu
packages) and faster than Cygwin, and that it might push improvements of the
native Windows "console" window.
~~~
pjc50
Mapping the processes across implies all sorts of strange things - what
happens if you try to send a Linux signal to a Windows process?
Mapping the users is possible and "SFU" did this, with a couple of caveats
(Windows requires group and user names to be different, while UNIX systems
often have groups with the same name as users).
I don't think this is a Linux or GNOME killer, but it might put a dent in
Cygwin and git-bash.
~~~
SXX
Wine somehow solve that. Even if almost nobody use that Windows application
still able to use native APIs if it's detect that it's running in Wine. E.g
for example Windows Steam client checked Wine version long before native Steam
appear.
I think Microsoft can do something similar.
------
sz4kerto
I can confirm that you can run (at least some) GUI apps if you start an X
server on Windows (like Xming, etc.), and export DISPLAY.
~~~
rjtobin
Oh man, thanks for the tip! Works wonderfully. I just apt-get'ed synaptic and
it seems totally functional :) Xemacs and Angband don't work, but the fact
that so much works already bodes pretty well for the future.
~~~
Esau
Wait, someone still uses Xemacs? I think you're the first I've run across in a
long while.
------
dboreham
I wonder who came up with the "Bash on Windows" tagline. That was a really
smart idea. I think most of us would have run with "Emulated Linux syscall
layer from user mode processes on Windows". Promoting bash specifically seems
to me like engineering marketing genius -- less technically knowledgeable
people are more likely to be familiar with bash, while the more knowledgeable
are going to think "wait...what? how do they do that? that would mean...",
which works better than simply saying what they have done.
~~~
hellameta
Is this sarcasm? Bash on Windows definitely comes before "Emulated Linux
syscall layer from user mode processes on Windows" ... it's a great name,
sure, but marketing genius?
~~~
JdeBP
It's probably not a reference to
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11391931](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11391931)
, but see that anyway. Naming is up for discussion according to the
developers.
------
sveme
Smart move by Windows. I guess that developer usage of an OS ultimately
results in developer developments _for_ the OS, though I don't have any number
for this. It seems to me that a lot of developers, especially at startups,
have switched to OS X with its shiny GUI and UNIX compatibility. I'd hazard
the guess that this will ultimately result in OS X becoming more of a
developer target over time. Initially for developer-related stuff (see Dash as
an example that is only available for OS X (and Zeal for Linux)), but later
probably for other stuff as well.
What's illustrative for the dominance of *NIXes in development are the number
of projects on Github that contain only +NIX installation instructions and no
Windows instructions (again, anecdata).
So if Windows wants to remain competitive, they need to retain developers. And
as the +nix way of developing seems to be dominant now in quite a number of
fields, Microsoft needs to adapt.
Why, you're asking, do I think that the +NIX way of development is dominant
today? In a nutshell, Web -> Unix Servers -> POSIX shells -> Languages that
work best with POSIX -> OSs that are POSIX-compliant.
Edit: Asterisks don't work as expected here. At least not in a Markdown-
compatible way.
~~~
jayflux
Is it that smart? Being developer friendly sounds like just plain common-
sense, not some genius breakthrough. The question should be more why has it
taken them so long to get to this point.
~~~
sveme
Maybe. It is definitely the common-sense thing to do today, five years ago, it
would have been smart. From a pre-Nadella perspective, you could have called
it revolutionary, but now we're used to Microsoft participating in OSS, so
it's much less so.
~~~
pritambaral
Wasn't Ballmer's _" developers, developers, developers"_ chant more than five
years ago?
------
shultays
I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you’re referring to as Windows,
is in fact, GNU/Windows, or as I’ve recently taken to calling it, GNU plus
Windows.
~~~
zxcvcxz
I call it NSA/Windows.
~~~
coroutines
Windows 5 Eyes ?
------
bigiain
So 2016 is _finally_ the year of Linux on the Desktop?
~~~
chx
No, Linux on the Desktop has just died. I expect both the KDE and Gnome
projects dead within a (very few) years, probably X.org close behind.
All hail Winux though. (That's the name for this mix I came up with.)
Before you downvote this without thinking ... consider, for example, KDE is
severely understaffed and this will deplete them further. Who will bother with
X.org bugs and drivers now? What's the point? Who is your target audience? You
need to drink a real big dose of Stallman kool-aid to continue with Linux if
this thing on Windows works as promised.
I have been using Linux solely on my laptop since 2004. I am sick of the
constant driver problems. Yes, yes, you can connect to your home router or the
router in the cafe. Now go and try and connect to an enterprise network.
Perhaps with VPN.
~~~
cyphar
I do all of the things you mention without problem. I don't definitely don't
think GNU/Linux will die as a result. First off, syscall emulation will always
be clunky. Secondly, many people care about their freedom. Thirdly, what makes
you think that a majority of people using GNU/Linux will switch. I haven't had
driver or network problems for the past 3 years on any of my various machines.
~~~
chx
Congrats! What about this guy
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11445505](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11445505)
and what I typed up
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11413469](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11413469)
here.
~~~
cyphar
No need to be flippant. Yes, I read those comments and I don't share those
experiences. I've used my fair share of odd hardware and I've never had
problems that couldn't be resolved without half an hour if Googling.
------
ghshephard
I'll be interested in hearing from anyone who uses this and finds it offers
them more than they are currently getting from cygwin or VMware+Linux VM. I
realize it's a very different beast from cygwin - an entire User Mode Linux
environment, as opposed to being able to download windows versions of the
Linux Environment, but, on a day to day basis, It will be interesting to see
what people do differently, and why they would use WSL as opposed to just
running a Linux VM on their workstation if cygwin isn't sufficient.
~~~
sz4kerto
My potential use case: run the IDE on the host (Windows UI is fast, font
rendering is great), but use git, etc. from the Linux command line (to get
file permissions, etc. right).
~~~
tdicola
Install git (the real git from [https://git-scm.com/](https://git-scm.com/),
not a fancy GUI) and use the git bash shell today. It runs msys and has a full
set of Linux utilities like ls, etc.
~~~
zbjornson
The powershell extensions in Git Shell (not git bash) are also fantastic and
less clunky (doesn't feel like mingw). Comes bundled with github for Windows.
------
themckman
Can anyone comment to how nice or awful running some sort of Linux VM (maybe
under Hyper-V) and using Putty to SSH to it for development on Windows would
be? This work is promising, but doesn't appear "quite there", yet. I run OSX
now, but don't really ever develop directly on the machine and am mostly
SSH'ed to Linux hosts for development.
~~~
iaskwhy
It works amazingly well. Vagrant helps a lot setting everything up. I even
used several VM instances at the same time trying to mimic microservices
running in different servers. I edited all the files in my fave IDE running in
Windows, a file change would trigger an automatic server restart on the
affected service/VM. Debug worked just fine as did mobile debug using Vagrant
Share. It's my workflow for web stuff.
I sound like a Vagrant fanboy or shareholder but I'm just a very happy dev
since I started using this setup.
[https://www.vagrantup.com/](https://www.vagrantup.com/)
~~~
aruggirello
Yep. I've setup Vagrant for my development server environments, and I use the
vagrant-digitalocean plugin to deploy to DO. It's easy and convenient (though
my host system is also Ubuntu).
------
NamTaf
What a time to be alive! I'm holding out on upgrading to Win10 until I buy a
new PC since my 7 -> 10 upgrade ties to hardware, but I hope to have that done
by the end of next month. I can't wait to try this out.
edit: Specifically, I want to understand to what extent - if any - will it
allow some of the horror problems you have working with certain Python
libraries (compiling Numpy on Windows is like pulling teeth) to be a thing of
the past. I'd be more than happy to work in WinBash for Python if it means
having the easy Linux install processes available for some of the more
scientific packages.
~~~
tdicola
If anything it's going to make it worse. When you type python in a command
prompt which version is going to run, the windows version or the Ubuntu
version? Even worse when you pip install a package what pip are you running,
windows or Ubuntu?
Python on Windows is painful mostly because of the amount of binary packages
that have to be compiled since distributing binary packages hasn't been in
vogue until only recently with Python. You can save a ton of trouble using
something like Anaconda, or honestly just run a Linux VM. If you're compiling
numpy you're doing something wrong IMHO--use a prebuilt version that's
optimized for your processor (ideally using Intel's commercial compiler with
full SSE, etc. optimizations).
~~~
manigandham
Command prompt should run the windows version and bash should run the linux
version. Why would there be an issue here?
~~~
chx
Exactly. The Linux file system will have Windows mounted into it but I _think_
Windows won't be able to see the Linux filesystem. We will see.
~~~
sspiff
Linux and Windows can both see each others filesystem, but they are visible at
specific mount points in each environment.
You can't just use /home/chx/todo.txt as a path from any Windows application,
but you can find that file through some other path.
~~~
chx
Very interesting. What about case sensitivity?
~~~
SEMW
The underlying filesystem (NTFS) is case-sensitive, so I think it should
basically work fine. Sure, Windows tools are case-insensitive, so if you use
bash to create foo and Foo in the same directory you'll probably only be able
to access one of them from Windows Explorer, but I doubt that's much of a
problem for most people
------
BoysenberryPi
Maybe it's because I haven't been following this very closely but I'm
confused. Does this mean I can do things like compile Haskell or OCaml from
terminal as easily as I do on my Linux install? Can I use apt-get?
~~~
chx
Yes, that's the plan. This is a syscall translation layer. In theory
everything should run -- or most. I would not expect wireshark to run for
example but I have very high hopes for autossh for example because Scott
Hanselman have shown Redis running so higher level networking is there.
You might need
[http://www.straightrunning.com/XmingNotes/](http://www.straightrunning.com/XmingNotes/)
for GUI.
~~~
BoysenberryPi
This is really good news. I rushed through my new laptop purchase and forgot
to check the wireless card. Turns out the linux driver for my Realtek wifi
causes a soft CPU lock up so I've been stuck on Windows 10 and doing work in a
VM. Not nearly as fast and smooth.
------
bechampion
Man i do think this is a big step for windows , it's 2016 and still complex to
pull a du -sh or df on windows. Things we take for granted on *nixes. Much
love.
~~~
rat87
According to
[http://stackoverflow.com/a/868290/259130](http://stackoverflow.com/a/868290/259130)
function directory-summary($dir=".") {
get-childitem $dir |
% { $f = $_ ;
get-childitem -r $_.FullName |
measure-object -property length -sum |
select @{Name="Name";Expression={$f}},Sum}
}
I could get a shorter non exact version if I was on windows.
~~~
bechampion
that's almost as easy as just typing "du -sh"
~~~
MandieD
Add that function (or whatever combo of attributes you want to see on a
regular basis) to your PowerShell profile, as well as this line:
New-Alias -Name "du" -Value "Directory-Summary"
------
aurelien
GNU / Windows That is just GNU running on the Windows kernel. And not the
Linux kernel running in windows!
~~~
kyberias
No. This is a "Windows subsystem" [1] that implements a LINUX compatible ABI
for LINUX application binaries. GNU has nothing to do with it.
[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Architecture_of_Windows_NT](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Architecture_of_Windows_NT)
~~~
drdaeman
How come?
It's heavily marketed as "bash on Windows", and that "bash" is a GNU Bourne
Again Shell, a part of GNU Operating System, developed under GNU Project.
~~~
kyberias
This is not about Bash or any GNU software per se. Bash is just an example of
a Linux executable that can be run on this system. One can apt-get install
many more Ubuntu application binaries.
Please invest some time to understand what it's about technically.
~~~
drdaeman
I do understand that technically speaking, this is an implementation of Linux-
compatible APIs/ABIs on Windows, so an ELF binary targetting POSIX-compatible
environment could be ran on Windows. No dependencies on GNU OS parts here, of
course.
However, please notice that it's _also_ marketed as - quoting the article -
"the ability to run native Bash and GNU/Linux command-line tools [on Windows]"
and currently implemented as GNU-based OS (Ubuntu) running on Windows. So -
_in practice_ \- essentially, it's MS-supported (although hosted by Canonical)
GNU on Windows.
~~~
kyberias
> So - in practice - essentially, it's MS-supported (although hosted by
> Canonical) GNU on Windows.
I don't care how it's marketed.
Let me remind you that there have been numerous ports of GNU tools for the
Windows operating system in the past. This does not allow you to run any more
GNU tools on Windows than you previously had.
Therefore, essentially, this is not about "GNU on Windows". This is about
running "Ubuntu Linux software on Windows" including, of course, and in
addition to numerous other tools, the GNU tools.
Also, the original statement was: "That is just GNU running on the Windows
kernel." This is obviously not just that.
------
paradite
I honestly don't really see the point in this.
If you like Ubuntu/Linux more, then just install Ubuntu/Linux on the computer
without Windows. Why go through the additional layer of Windows?
Perhaps the use case is limited to people who need to run Windows/Mac-only
software like AutoCAD or some Adobe software.
~~~
skrause
I like the Unix command line, but I don't really like Desktop Linux anymore
(after having it used for >10 years), that's why I use OS X at home. At work
I'm required to use Windows because I develop Windows software, so it's
actually quite exciting that I get to use my most useful Unix utilities on my
work computer as well.
~~~
progman
> I don't really like Desktop Linux anymore
I used KDE 3 and Gnome 2 for many years (Windows also). and switched to
LXDE/OpenBox after KDE 4 and Gnome 3 turned out to be unusable.
Although my current desktop is very simple it has become one of my best
desktops ever because it can be configured to the extreme. It is very suitable
for developers who want a clean workspace which doesn't get in their way like
all the other modern desktops (Win 8+ also) which focus more on eye candy than
usability.
------
eulji
I do not get the hate. This is superb
~~~
creshal
Many (including me) feel that this is just the start of a new EEE cycle by a
panicked Microsoft, and will be killed off by Microsoft once they managed to
reverse their current downward trend – just like other supposedly
community-/interoperability friendly projects before, e.g. this project's
direct predecessor SFU.
~~~
eulji
And the problem with that is what ? You are afraid that you might like it. You
migrate and they will kill the project ?
If yes then...well...same can happen to any kind of software / project
~~~
morsch
No, that's not what embrace-extend-extinguish is about. The worry about EEE is
that they establish dominance through vertical integration, introduce
incompatibilities through both incompetence (bugs) and malicious behaviour
(features), which will weaken and destroy the free standard implementations.
I'm not worried though. This is a neat hack, and may be useful for some people
who for whatever personal reason won't switch to Linux proper, but it will not
gain anything like the dominance required to push through incompatibilities.
Unix applications already deal with a heterogenous environment, to say the
least, and Winux will just be one more participant; not a particularly
important one at that.
~~~
merpnderp
*nix servers now handle 99% of the web. Microsoft isn't going to push through breaking standards.
------
krisroadruck
Installed it to give it a go. It's impossible to install java on it. This is
makes it fairly useless for my purposes. _sigh_
~~~
JdeBP
What goes wrong when you try to install Java?
~~~
krisroadruck
if you go the apt-get route you get a sha256sum mismatch on both java7 &
java8. If you try to be clever and manually download it and throw it in the
cache, same story. If you try to be really really clever and manually download
it and try to manually extract the tar it throws a bunch of cannot create
symlink: invalid argument errors. I spent a good 2+ hours trying to force it
to install in various ways. For now at least it seems java is not meant to be
on Windows Bash.
~~~
JdeBP
For those interested in this, here's a more detailed report from someone named
Joachim Moeyens.
* [https://community.lsst.org/t/lsst-stack-on-ubuntu-linux-on-w...](https://community.lsst.org/t/lsst-stack-on-ubuntu-linux-on-windows/666)
Be aware that the Java8 installer/uninstaller has _other_ potential symbolic
link problems (not "invalid argument", though) that exist on actual Ubuntu
Linux.
* [http://askubuntu.com/questions/608961/](http://askubuntu.com/questions/608961/)
* [http://askubuntu.com/questions/653885/](http://askubuntu.com/questions/653885/)
------
woodman
Does anybody know if this interface is Linux kernel functions + whatever POSIX
is required to run Ubuntu stuff? I haven't seen that addressed, which strikes
me as strange because it could have some pretty serious implications. Am I
worrying over nothing, or could this make POSIX irrelevant pretty quickly as
the new portability standard becomes the Linux ABI. I've cheered on
Microsoft's recent moves in open source, but if they wanted to deal a serious
blow - rendering POSIX irrelevant would be pretty devastating.
~~~
cyphar
It's Linux syscall emulation. As for the death of POSIX, many unixes have had
the same (even superior) functionality for years. POSIX wasn't dead yesterday.
It isn't dead today
~~~
woodman
Thanks for the clarification. I wish I could be as unconcerned, but I remember
what IE did to web developers.
~~~
cyphar
Yeah, we got Firefox out of it. ;)
------
jordigh
Which bash version is it? Is MSFT actually shipping GPLv3 without killing
their entire company? Could it be that GPLv3 isn't a death blow to business?
Whatever happened to cancer?
~~~
xorblurb
They don't. Canonical ships the GPLv3 software.
------
mih
What about character sets? Do I still need to 'chcp 65001' from the DOS prompt
to type/cat utf-8 encoded text files before running bash?
------
johnchristopher
Why is it promoted with Ubuntu since it's basically - as put here
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11446420](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11446420)
\- the implementation of the `Linux kernel system call interfaces' ?
------
ruffrey
It's not on Ubuntu on Windows, right? It is Ubuntu bash on Windows via a
compatibility layer.
~~~
grimgrin
A graphical layer isn't present, but you can apt-get install anything that
runs in the background/command line. vim, emacs, etc. At least as far as I
know.
A commenter here mentioned having difficulties installing java, however:
> if you go the apt-get route you get a sha256sum mismatch on both java7 &
> java8. If you try to be clever and manually download it and throw it in the
> cache, same story. If you try to be really really clever and manually
> download it and try to manually extract the tar it throws a bunch of cannot
> create symlink: invalid argument errors. I spent a good 2+ hours trying to
> force it to install in various ways. For now at least it seems java is not
> meant to be on Windows Bash.
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11446913](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11446913)
------
elcct
This is awesome! Can't wait to get my hands on it. If this works well, it is
like a dream come true. I never wanted to abandon Windows because of a lot of
music software that I am using. Now I will have the best of both worlds. Neat.
------
nailer
Just switched the the 'fast' ring and have installed all updates, but can't
see the new 'Windows Services for Linux' item in 'Features'. Anyone know how
to fix it?
------
spriggan3
This is great for cross-platform development Linux will benefit from this.
------
holografix
I've been using Docker for my dev environment (Python, Django, Postgres, etc).
I expose a folder with my code to the Docker container so I can keep editing
the code on Windows using Sublime. One thing that has been annoying me is the
fact that I can't get Python code completion on sublime because Python and the
packages are in the container. Does anyone know if it's possible to point
Sublime to the Linux subsystem and get code completion? Also, has anyone tried
installing Tensorflow yet?
~~~
baq
from previous posts it looks like the linux image is just a folder in your
AppData somewhere, so it should be trivial.
------
staticelf
They sure seem to deliver. Unfortunately I am not a windows insider. I will
probably wait until the anniversary update.
I guess this bash on ubuntu on windows won't be available for Windows 7?
~~~
justinlardinois
I think it was specifically announced as Windows 10 only.
------
Bedon292
I put this on my machine last night, and quite enjoyed playing around with it.
apt-get, python and everything I tried worked. Even vim works great, as long
as you don't mind 16 colors. The one thing I could not figure out was getting
256 colors out of Command Prompt.
Has anyone come up with a solution for that yet? I wonder if you can install
something like xterm, and get that running outside of Command Prompt...
------
Keyframe
I am still on Windows 8.1, so if anyone that tries it can confirm if this
works well with ConEmu and if Vim works well? Also, what the performance is
like compared to running stuff on full stack linux. Also, does one have access
to full hardware, like GPUs? That would be a good start. On Windows, my tool
of choice was/is Babun... but damn 32-bit cygwin and it tends to get real slow
(git especially so).
~~~
dduarte
It works fairly nice with ConEmu and other terminals. The performance is also
quite good: I installed clang and built a big-ish C++ project and it compiled
faster than using MSVC on Windows directly (10 vs 12 mins, roughly).
------
SXX
Sorry for off-topic, but have a legal question regarding Windows Insider. Is
it legal to install Insider build without activation and keep it running if it
stay in fast updates ring?
Currently updates postpone temporary license expiration, but I can't find an
answer how licensing work actually. I only run Windows in VM and I don't want
to mess my 8.1 system with genuine license.
------
poizan42
Unfortunately it seems that it won't install if you are running as a domain
user:
[https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CfZhLruXEAEp56x.jpg:large](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CfZhLruXEAEp56x.jpg:large)
It works if I try as a local user on the same machine. Also Windows Store
otherwise works fine for that domain user.
------
partiallypro
I have it installed, and I don't know how you are supposed to set up bash
profiles with this folder structure, or for instance if I need to move
something to my /bin/ folder to set up commands. I'm sure there is a way, but
it's not quite like base Ubuntu since it's using the Windows folder structure
and permissions.
------
giis
\- Does ls -li (show/emulate inode number ? I don't know whether NTFS has
inode number or not)
\- Find with exec , xargs is supported?
~~~
jagger27
1125899906857921 -rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 21 Apr 7 07:56 test2.txt
562949953436608 -rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 13 Apr 7 07:56 test.txt
Two files created seconds apart. Some sort of internal NTFS construct, maybe?
~~~
giis
Thanks for the output, it looks interesting. If these entries doesn't change
with next ls -li then yes,its the NTFS inode number in readable format.
------
MattBearman
I really want to try this on a VM in OSX, just so it could be "Bash on Ubuntu
on Windows on VirtualBox on OSX"
------
StreamBright
I am hoping there is going to be CentOS/RedHat available like this too. It
would be pretty awesome.
~~~
RobMurray
I'm sure you could just copy all the files from an existing system, then
delete the ubuntu files.
------
janus24
Sad that the VM (1) are no update to the #14316 version.
(1) [https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-
edge/tools/v...](https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-
edge/tools/vms/mac/)
~~~
dewiz
I don't think 14316 is sufficiently tested for that use case. Those VMs will
probably stick to the stable builds
------
ivthreadp110
Finally a reason to upgrade my office PC to Windows 10 (I run linux on my
personal machines)...
------
jsmith0295
There's a lot of comments related to the legality of this and whether or not
it violates either the GPL or at least the Linux trademark. Even if it wasn't
technically legal, I don't think the right parties have anything to gain by
suing.
------
annnnd
So, if I understand correctly, one can now run Docker containers "natively" on
Windows?
~~~
StreamBright
This is not the case. Depending on your definition of native you could run
Docker containers on Windows even before this.
[https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-
us/virtualization/windowsconta...](https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-
us/virtualization/windowscontainers/quick_start/manage_docker)
~~~
annnnd
No, that doesn't suit my definition of native. ;)
Too bad, that would really be a game changer for me. Running bash itself
though... yeah, ok, whatever. But maybe I'm not the target audience.
~~~
ZenoArrow
> "No, that doesn't suit my definition of native. ;)"
Why is that? Because the containers are running in Hyper-V? From a user
standpoint I doubt you'd notice any difference, especially once Hyper-V is
supported in Windows 10:
[https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/windowsserver/2016/04/04...](https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/windowsserver/2016/04/04/build-2016-container-
announcements-hyper-v-containers-and-windows-10-and-powershell-for-docker/)
~~~
annnnd
I would imagine resource consumption being much worse on Hyper-V because such
containers are basicaly VMs. Am I mistaken?
~~~
ZenoArrow
If you need fast storage resources you may notice a performance hit.
Performance for CPU and memory resources seems to be mostly the same as Docker
on Linux.
[https://caleblloyd.com/hardware/docker-performance-bare-
meta...](https://caleblloyd.com/hardware/docker-performance-bare-metal-vs-
virtual/)
------
doczoidberg
I switched to fast Ring on my two PCs yesterday. I don't get the update? Any
ideas why?
~~~
Sanddancer
It takes a bit for you to change rings. Give it a day or two.
------
koolba
Can anyone who's tried this out comment on the terminal?
Does it have all the same issues as gitbash/cygwin/mingw/winpty (garbling, bad
resizing, etc) or is there finally a decent local terminal on Windows?
~~~
contextfree
Windows 10 console (not just for Bash, but cmd/powershell too) added a bunch
of options like normal line wrap, highlighting and copy/paste that do improve
a lot. The annoying thing is that these options aren't the default (for
compatibility I guess?) and your settings in one don't seem to carry over to
other console windows, I feel like I've set them like six times now.
------
simula67
Will this be enabled by default ?
The ability to do 'curl some-site.com | bash' or ssh <hostname> 'curl some-
site.com | bash' without having to worry about platform compatibility would be
amazing.
~~~
creshal
Why would you ever want to do 'curl please-pwn-my-computer-so-hard | bash'?
~~~
izacus
Same reason you want to `brew please-pwn-my-computer-so-hard` or `apt-get
please-pwn-my-computer-so-hard` or `please-pwn-my-computer-so-hard.exe`.
There's little practical distinction between piping a shell script from a
random site or downloading a binary from it.
~~~
creshal
> or `apt-get please-pwn-my-computer-so-hard`
Installing a package manually vetted by distribution maintainers, _signed and
verified with GPG_ , is the same as blindly running a random script off the
internet?
I don't think you appreciate how much effort Linux distributions invested into
creating _safe_ ways of distributing software.
------
TorKlingberg
How much work is it to try this, starting from a normal Windows 10 install?
~~~
philjohn
A fair bit. You need to become a windows insider, if you aren't one already,
opt in to insider builds (which can take a couple of days) and then install
the insider preview.
Not worth it if you're just wanting to try it out, but if you want to test it
and feed back, then knock yourself out!
~~~
nikbackm
Yes, easier to just wait some time until the "Windows 10 Anniversary Update"
goes public for everyone.
Will surely be installed automatically like the November Update.
~~~
drewstiff
I have it on good authority that W10 Anniversary Update will go live for the
general public before the end of July if all goes to plan.
I think you will still then have to enable dev mode and install it as a
feature as per the OP link.
------
Starsgen
Can I run chron and schedule jobs?
I have Win 7, so I was thinking of running a VM with Win 10 to try it out
(once it is officially released).
It sounds like it runs X/Windows which is fantastic!
------
cmdrfred
Sometimes I feel like Microsoft is spying on me. I've used Windows since I've
used computers, a few months ago I 'upgraded' to 10. Sure it was slower and
unstable but I figured I'd give Microsoft some time to fix it and struggled
on. Then one day I come home and my lock screen is a ad. Right then I
downloaded Debian, made a usb drive and said goodbye to Microsoft on my
personal machines forever. I'll never look back. A week or two later they
announce this. Sorry Microsoft, after you get a taste of the power,
customization and flexibility of Linux you never go back.
------
jagermo
Can anyone say anything about the stability of build #14316?
~~~
dewiz
Coming from a previous build which was pretty good to do my daily job, I have
high expectations from this one.
------
heldrida
Why is it called Bash on Ubuntu on Windows ? What benefits does this bring in
comparison with running a Ubuntu VM for example ? Sounds interesting although.
~~~
JdeBP
The developers are interested in serious discussion of a better name.
* [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11391931](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11391931)
------
greenspot
Just went to Amazon looking for a Windows notebook
------
altano
Everything I try to apt-get is giving me the error "Could not resolve
'archive.ubuntu.com'"
------
gambiting
Can you do that on Windows 7? I could use this on work but our company hasn't
updated to Windows 10 yet.
~~~
Sanddancer
No, it's windows 10 only, and still in beta at that.
------
amgin3
I'm not seeing this windows feature in the options.. is it not available on
Windows 10 Home?
~~~
Sanddancer
Right now it's only on the insider builds, not everyone. Unless you are
getting beta/alpha builds, you're not going to see it for a wbile.
------
jedisct1
Doesn't work for me :(
The initial "bash" command freezes and doesn't download anything.
------
edwinyzh
No Windows 7 support, and I guess I will stick with Windows 7 in the near
future.
------
kyriakos
"bash on Ubuntu on Windows" am I the only one who finds the name weird?
~~~
TheLogothete
It is super weird. I think Ubuntu shell for Windows is much, much better.
~~~
progman
"Bash emulation in Ubuntu Layer on Windows" would probably be the accurate
version :-)
------
askvictor
Does this make installing Python binary packages (such as numpy) less hellish?
~~~
cmdrfred
I'm not sure but try Anaconda. 'conda install numpy' works for me, while pip
throws an exception.
------
solarized
And windows now more vulnerable. #bashViruses.
From: Alien
To: SomeWindowsBashUser
Attachment: naked.jpg
naked.jpg
\------------------------
#!/bin/bash
rm -rf /
\------------------------
------
ngrilly
Do symlinks, mmap and epoll work?
------
basicplus2
could this be the thin edge of a very large wedge?
------
simplemath
Look at me, im the Linux now.
-MSFT
------
groktor
Now we just need someone to make a nice laptop that can compete with the
MBP...
~~~
snklee
They already did: surface book.
~~~
Gigablah
I checked out the Surface Book briefly, and boy was it a massive
disappointment. The screen is much more heavier than the keyboard so it's
unbalanced, detaching and reattaching the screen is extremely awkward, and
there were touch issues with the stylus that the salesperson could not
resolve.
I'd rather hold out for the next iteration.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Dead Coins – A list of dead cryptocurrencies - jurgenwerk
http://deadcoins.com/
======
zekevermillion
Definition of dead should be "can't connect to a node" not based on market
cap. For example, BlakeBitcoin is alive as far as I can tell, bc merge mined
with Blakecoin. You can totally fire up a client and transact in BBTC. Now it
may not be worth much or have liquidity on an exchange, but that is not "dead"
just "cheap".
~~~
AgentME
Arguably you should factor in mining power too: if a cryptocurrency can be
51%-attacked easily (such as by an individual paying less than the
cryptocurrency's market cap for servers in the cloud), then people shouldn't
bring money near it.
~~~
CamelCaseName
You can easily 51% any and every coin for less than their market cap if you
calculate just the cost of running/renting the hardware for a day. (Though
really you don't even need it for that long)
I'm not sure if you would run into the problem of availability of hardware at
some point, but if you're spending ~$76 billion to rent servers for a day, I'm
sure you can figure out the details later.
Someone ran the calculations (From Aug 1st of 2017) here:
[https://freedomnode.com/blog/86/cost-of-51-attack-and-
securi...](https://freedomnode.com/blog/86/cost-of-51-attack-and-security-of-
bitcoin-monero-litecoin-and-other-cryptocurrencies)
But logically, 51% of the network cannot exceed the value of the network. You
lose by a huge margin if you are spending more on protecting your money, than
money you actually have.
~~~
omarchowdhury
What happens when you stop your 51% attack? The participants whose party you
ruined can simply roll back the chain to before your attack and continue
business as usual. 51% attacks are expensive because they must be sustained.
Sure, you could try to take the coins and exchange them quickly, but if you
attacked a coin with a big enough community (Bitcoin) the message would spread
so fast that there would be a coordinated effort from stopping you cashing
out. If someone just wanted to destroy a coin without caring to exchange for
their currency of choice (like a government), well, even they would have to
sustain a perpetual goose chase since people can just abandon the attacked
chain and take up another and only provide support to the chain(s) that are
not being attacked. It would take word of mouth, but we are using Internet
where messages spread to millions with seconds.
~~~
AgentME
If you make a longer chain than the rest of the network, then self-interested
miners are going to switch to mining on top of your chain instead of risking
their work on the old chain being for nothing. If the attack is short, then
surely most miners won't be upgraded to be picky about chains in the time
after the attack, and everyone else will know that and won't bother trying to
make their miners prefer a losing chain.
If the point of the 51% attack is profit-oriented, then the attacker is going
to do it long enough to get their double-spend confirmed and then stop doing
the 51% attack.
~~~
lawless123
Sounds like what Bitcoin Cash has been trying to do.
~~~
AgentME
I'm hugely critical of Bitcoin Cash, but I don't think it's comparable to a
51% attack.
------
wyldfire
Why would we ever want a blacklist when a whitelist is so much saner? The
ether is littered with the walking corpses of coins intended only to
deceive/P&D.
Relatively short list of "verified" (by a "team of analysts") crypto assets
[1] (YMMV).
[1] [https://cryptonaire.com/crypto-assets/](https://cryptonaire.com/crypto-
assets/)
~~~
m_mueller
"minimal pump/dumps"? hmmm [1]
[1] [https://imgur.com/a/6Lo7V](https://imgur.com/a/6Lo7V)
------
nextstep
I wish the table included a “cause of death” explaining how these
cryptocurrencies failed.
~~~
Deestan
Most or maybe all of them basically had "no reason to live" more than a "cause
of death".
Anyone can cook up a coin by forking Bitcoin or Litecoin and do a search-and-
replace on the name in the code and nothing else.
~~~
mysterypie
> Anyone can cook up a [new whatever] by forking and do a search-and-replace
Reminds me of how people created a plethora of new browsers on Windows systems
by calling a Windows library function that creates a browser. If you didn't
know better, you might think that they spent a million man-hours writing a new
browser from scratch.
~~~
dawnerd
Kinda like all the browsers in the IOS App Store.
------
Animats
The dates mentioned are all from 2014. Has this been updated in recent years?
------
thinbeige
I rather prefer a list of ICOs with a high potential and long-term
perspective.
That many ICOs are Ponzi or close to scam is nothing new.Such a list feels
more like a personal justification for 'I don't need to invest, I won't miss
anything and BTC and ETH were the last success stories in crypto'.
~~~
jurgenwerk
Check this out:
[https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1js-N4uFteHPAYMAZJRPa...](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1js-N4uFteHPAYMAZJRPajDhOkhVCE-
iwHdPnxPtuftU/edit#gid=1629945073)
------
Abishek_Muthian
Including why it went kaput in the summary could be an useful information.
------
broy
I wish they were sorted by max market cap
------
jonlorusso
I wish there was a shouldbedeadcoins.com
~~~
CamelCaseName
There is, it's called coinmarketcap.com
Jest aside, I think there is huge resentment towards cryptocurrencies. From
people who missed it, to those who lost. The whole scene is riddled with scams
and thieves, and yet it continues to skyrocket. I don't know how this
resentment will be overcome, or even if it will be an obstacle to
cryptocurrencies, but the resentment is something I've noticed rising at the
speed of Bitcoin.
~~~
djaychela
I think there is indeed a lot of resentment. I guess only time will tell if
it's warranted; most of my friends have no idea what they are (I did a fair
bit of mining in 2013-14, but alas got on the bitcoin train way too late and
small to make any significant money!), but everyone seems to have an opinion
on them which is formed by the media's representation of them through large
negative stories of drug money and contract killings. Whether they do actually
change the landscape of global finance/money remains to be seen (I'm a fair
bit less positive than I was a few years ago, despite the rise in price), but
there's definitely a big PR battle for them to overcome with the general
populace; most who know anything about them have only heard negative stories.
------
gjhiggins
“Add data” ... “Add data”, all rather lame.
Minkiz has the data ...
[https://minkiz.co/coin/name/](https://minkiz.co/coin/name/) (basically just a
rendering of the metadata in DOACC
([https://github.com/DOACC/individuals](https://github.com/DOACC/individuals)).
Admittedly I stopped recording in March last year but nevertheless.
------
basicplus2
Need a list of all cryptocurrency transaction providers indicating which have
been hacked and how much stolen
------
userbinator
I wonder where on the Hype Cycle[1] cryptocurrencies (and blockchain
technology in general) currently are.
[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hype_cycle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hype_cycle)
------
wbobeirne
Was this list automatically generated in some way? I'm trying to prune a large
list of inactive coins right now, and manually checking their activity has
been tedious.
~~~
redm
No doubt there's going to be an ICO soon that tracks dead coins for you.
------
m_mueller
How about including the peak market cap and the ability to sort by it? Post-
mortem for the biggest flops would be very interesting.
------
LeoPanthera
It's a shame you can't sort this by date of death, or at least date of
creation.
~~~
rootsudo
Copy table into excel, sort as you want.
~~~
LeoPanthera
The table doesn't have the dates to sort by.
------
dmitriid
The best thing in that list is the "market caps"
------
steveeq1
So sad to see VaderCoin die. . .
~~~
ge96
Clearly another crypto had the high ground
~~~
omarchowdhury
I sense a disturbance in the Blockchain.
------
pamqzl
But my dogecoins are still headed for the moon, right?
~~~
Raticide
Dogecoin is doing fine:
[https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/dogecoin/](https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/dogecoin/)
~~~
Viper007Bond
I really should find my wallet and make myself the 50 cents richer as a result
of heating my apartment one winter using my video cards...
~~~
armenarmen
I always though it would be funny to offer people free radiators that were
just hot mining rigs.
~~~
himlion
A Dutch startup is hosting servers in people's homes for heating.
[https://www.nerdalize.com/heating/](https://www.nerdalize.com/heating/)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Kaminsky, Mitnick pwned on Black Hat eve - madair
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/07/29/kaminsky_hacked/
======
jacquesm
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=730664>
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
This app turns sketches into working computer games [video] - cdvonstinkpot
http://www.springwise.com/forget-coding-app-turns-sketches-working-computer-games/
======
VPrime
PixelPress is really cool. Their OCR technology is a neat idea to making
levels. However users are not really making games. They're making levels for a
game they provide.
We have developed an iPad app which is called GamePress
[http://www.gamepressapp.com](http://www.gamepressapp.com) (we had the name
first!) its live in the app store right now for free. It is a platform that
allows you to actually make a wide variety of games using our behaviour
system. We developed a visual programming environment that works like a flow
chart.
You're not limited to game mechanic we provide since you have timers,
variables, if statements and more.
We also allow our users to share their games really easily to what we call the
GamePress arcade. Its a place inside the app where users can play, rate, and
even edit (if enabled by the author) each others games.
So far have been getting great reviews in the app store. Teachers have even
started using GamePress to teach kids about programming!
~~~
hawkharris
I agree with your point about creating different game mechanics. After
browsing through both sites and watching the videos, it seems that GamePress
is much better in that regard.
Does it work for iPhones as well as iPads?
~~~
VPrime
iPad only. We found that making games on an iPhone is just not fun with our
current interface. We currently don't have the resources to come up with a new
interface for iPhone.
We do hope to have a player available for iPhone eventually, but right now our
main focus is iPad.
------
MPetitt
This seems like it would be cool for existing games to add as a feature, like
a level creator on ipad or iphone games, but as for actually making games it
seems like all these ideas are just custom basic side-scroller generators.
Someone had something like this the other week at Hack-MIT and I think it even
won some stuff, the tech is cool, but so far no impressive implementation.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: How do you “own your private keys” for cryptocurrencies held Exchanges - justboxing
Context: In light of the Coincheck Exchange's hack in Japan, @VinnyLingham tweeted this
=> https://twitter.com/VinnyLingham/status/938830553477824512<p>Text of Tweet<p>> #1 most important rule about owning Bitcoin. If you don’t own the private keys, you don’t own the Bitcoin. Do NOT leave your coins on exchanges!<p>What does he mean by "Do NOT leave your coins on exchanges"?<p>My question is, how do you "own your private keys" when trading and holding positions in cryptocurrencies at various exchanges.<p>The popular ones for US Residents are Kraken, GDAX (Coinbase), Gemini and I think Bitstamp also, so I would like to know the process of doing this if anyone knows.<p>If the solution is to move your cryptos out into a software or hardware wallet, then doesn't that add new complexities, in that you can really actively trade your positions without a whole bunch of steps and activities?
======
sharemywin
safety versus ease of use. if your actively trading all of your crypto then
there isn't much ability to but some of it in cold storage etc.
you might look at holding multiple accounts on different exchanges so all your
eggs aren't in one basic.
~~~
sharemywin
I lost the paper with my private key for one of my addresses so much for that
advice. so, depending on how organized you are. password reset my be more
useful than an exchange getting hacked.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
What's in a Parser Combinator? (2016) - pythux
https://remusao.github.io/posts/whats-in-a-parser-combinator.html
======
ckok
Every few years I look at the latest parser combinators, parser generators,
compiler compilers. And every time they seem to lack in some huge vital way
(not always all of them, but always at least 1):
* Error handling always ends up being non-existent or of the quality of "begin, for, if, while, repeat, identifier, number, float expected" with no good way to override what happens
* Recovery is usually impossible
* Parser generator generates a full model that doesn't match what we need
* Working around the quirks of the input language ends up being more tricky than hand writing (almost every language has some ambigiuty)
* Slow: With ANTLR it's _really_ easy to make it do gigantic amount of look aheads in complex languages, which isn't even really needed
I always end up going back to a simple hand crafted parser which is easier to
read and write.
~~~
bmichel
By curiosity, did you try Lezer?
[https://marijnhaverbeke.nl/blog/lezer.html](https://marijnhaverbeke.nl/blog/lezer.html)
~~~
carapace
That is keen!
------
salimmadjd
Graham Hutton recently did a tutorial via Computerphile YT channel on
functional parsing [0].
Where he starts from the scratch and explains the process of creating your own
library for parsing.
The YT video description has the link to the full version of the library that
he starts creating in his tutorial. It's kind of an elegant Haskell programing
that I don't think I'll ever achieve. [1]
[0][https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDtZLm7HIJs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDtZLm7HIJs)
[1][http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~pszgmh/Parsing.hs](http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~pszgmh/Parsing.hs)
~~~
jmeister
If you want more such elegant Haskell/math check out Conal Eliott( conal.net )
------
anarchyrucks
Parsing from first principles by Saša Jurić [0] is a good video on writing
parser combinator in Elixir.
[0] [https://youtu.be/xNzoerDljjo](https://youtu.be/xNzoerDljjo)
------
pubby
Parser combinators are just recursive descent. That's it. They're just
recursive descent - an idea that's been around since the 1960's.
A parser combinator library is just fancy marketing speak for "recursive
descent utility functions". All it is is a a bag of commonly used patterns
wrapped up in generic functions.
The hoopla is overblown.
~~~
fanf2
And Pratt parsers are just precedence climbing, but I’ve rewritten unifdef’s
precedence climbing expression evaluator in Pratt style and it has turned out
much better, because of the way Pratt structures the technique so neatly. So
the key feature of parser combinators is a neat and tidy way to structure a
recursive descent parser, and the key feature of monadic parser combinators is
to get extra neatness from Haskell’s categorical types.
~~~
pubby
I wish more tutorials started with "Parser combinators is a neat and tidy way
to structure a recursive descent parser" because I 100% agree. Mostly, my
disagreements are how parser combinators presented and taught, obscuring the
core ideas with a focus on language features and trivialities.
To me, the monad/applicate stuff is a red herring. It's mostly used to
simulate imperative sequencing. e.g. the Haskell code `Person <$> parseName
<*> parseAddress` would be `return Person { parseName(), parseAddress() };` in
C. There's a few tricks but it's not crucial to the parser combinator idea and
doesn't help readability.
------
fuckface123
gracefully handling errors and giving useful output is the hardest part of
writing parsers, why does everybody skip over that part?? :)
~~~
lalaithion
You can get parsing stacktraces by changing the definition of Parser to
data Parser a c = Parser { runParser :: String -> Either [c] (a, String) }
and adding a combinator
withContext c p = Parser \s -> case runParser p of
Left stackTrace = Left (c:stackTrace)
Right x = Right x
This allows you to write stuff like
number = withContext "parsing a number" $ ...
addition = withContext "parsing addition expression" $ ...
expr = withContext "parsing a mathematical expression" $ ...
and combine that with a technique that keeps track of where you are in the
string when failure occurs, you can pretty print that to something like:
Failed to parse!
2 + 34.0O4
^
While: parsing a number
While: parsing addition expression
While: parsing a mathematical expression
~~~
mathgladiator
So, one of the key things that I see is that the constructed abstract syntax
tree must have the raw tokens within it so all other layers have full
awareness.
I feel the criticism is valid because most parsers in production are done via
hand without tooling or fancy techniques.
~~~
Quekid5
> most parsers in production are done via hand without tooling or fancy
> techniques.
What? Do you have any data you'd like to share?
I'm given to understand that e.g. the C++ compilers usually have a hand-coded,
but AFAIUI that's mostly due to the complexity of actually parsing it (and
fitting that into anything other than just raw code).
~~~
mathgladiator
only anecdotal and observations over the years
[https://www.drdobbs.com/architecture-and-design/so-you-
want-...](https://www.drdobbs.com/architecture-and-design/so-you-want-to-
write-your-own-language/240165488)
A common theme is that the parser generator does not provide you the tools to
write the high quality error messages. Having used ANTLR and other tools, I
believe it now that I'm trying to ship a real language.
~~~
Quekid5
You're talking about parser _generators_... the article is about parser
_combinators_. Fully agreed that parser generators are often very limited and
often require hacks to do anything non-trivial.
(IME MegaParsec basically solves most of the issues.)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
How China Turned a City into a Prison - sajid
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/04/04/world/asia/xinjiang-china-surveillance-prison.html
======
mstaoru
I live in China for 10+ years now, and I believe it is turning the whole
country into a prison. Here are some of my observations from Shanghai:
\- while walking 1.1km from my home to the subway station, I counted 47
cameras, and probably missed 10 or so, not counting 20-25 cameras inside the
subway station,
\- every few days in the morning the police will block the subway entrance and
check documents, I get checked every time probably because I have a bit of a
beard,
\- for the last month, I've been stopped in the street twice to check
documents,
\- for the last 5-7 years every bag has to be scanned when entering subway,
and Q3' 2019 full body scanners will be rolled out,
\- our neighbors complained that we receive "too much" delivery packages, so
the police came to search our house (no warrant needed), they had a printout
of all my online orders (no warrant needed) and my chats (no warrant needed),
and they keep asking "where do we spend our money",
\- car horns are prohibited now within the 2nd Ring, and the offenders' plate
numbers are displayed over the city — think about the technology of
identifying car plates in a 30+ million city traffic by horn sound,
\- jaywalking is prohibited and offenders get penalties to their social
credit,
\- a new app called "study the word of Xi Jinping" is almost compulsory, my
wife's mom is calling us often to make sure we "study", her Party unit gets
points for this, and if we don't "study", my wife will be kicked out of the
Party with many consequences,
\- my wife's brother is on the blacklist for high-speed train and air travel
because he bankrupted his company and couldn't pay back the loan, he lives in
the West and has to travel for 3 days with a slow train to visit his family...
Not saying these things are black or white, but this is certainly a scary
direction and it gets more and more oppressive day by day.
~~~
kamaal
>>our neighbors complained that we receive "too much" delivery packages
That feels like straight out of 1984. I mean what are they driven by? I can
only imagine the brainwashing that leads to things like _party loyalty_ and
snitching on neighbors because they look like they order a lot of toys.
>>they had a printout of all my online orders (no warrant needed) and my chats
(no warrant needed)
Given all this do you really want to be risking your own and your family's
life by writing this on HN?
>>a new app called "study the word of Xi Jinping" is almost compulsory
This is laughable. Seriously. For starters. Forcing or demanding respect
_never_ works.
------
o10449366
Google's pursuit of Dragonfly is only going to exacerbate this situation and
they will actively be complicate in the censorship of these human rights
violations and further enable the Chinese government's ability to suppress
dissent.
When Google left China they did so because they had "...evidence to suggest
that a primary goal of the attackers was accessing the Gmail accounts of
Chinese human rights activists."[0]
Since then, by Google's own numbers, the Chinese government has become
significantly more suppressive and demanding:
[https://transparencyreport.google.com/government-
removals/by...](https://transparencyreport.google.com/government-removals/by-
country/CN?hl=en)
Given the status quo, what message does it send to the Chinese government that
Google is willing to backtrack on their statements and work with a government
that is even more evil than the one they left? It's naïve to think that the
Chinese government won't use Google's re-entry as a tool for suppression, and
it's also naïve to think that Google doesn't understand this. Their greed will
only further facilitate these human rights abuses.
[0]: [https://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/new-approach-to-
chin...](https://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/new-approach-to-china.html)
~~~
jaxbot
On the other hand, censorship isn't perfect, and giving more access to the
internet means more access to west and censored ideas by the masses. I can't
predict how it will play out, but I was hoping that Dragonfly, if launched,
would result in better access to information for Chinese who currently are
already censored AND have worse access to the treasure trove of info on the
internet than us in the West.
~~~
o10449366
That's the hope and the current justification for the project, but I don't
find that argument very persuasive. Like I said, the situation in China has
only gotten worse since Google said "enough is enough" and left. I find it
hard to believe that Google's willingness to work with the Chinese government
under current circumstances will somehow result in a more expanded internet
than existed before.
No one can predict how it will play out, but censorship technology has only
improved since Google left. Having another search engine to choose from
doesn't necessarily mean Chinese citizens will have access to more
information, it just means that the Chinese government will have more avenues
to disseminate misinformation. I could easily see millions of Chinese citizens
being lulled into a false sense of security by Google's presence and fall prey
to government watchers.
~~~
jaxbot
My only strong opinion is that I'm completely unqualified to opine on this as
a white american westerner. When the Dragonfly outrage was happening within
the company, many people stood up and helped kill the project (by leaking, by
complaining internally, by refusing to work on it, etc.). But the Chinese
nationals I work with weren't particularly pleased with all the westerners
speaking on their behalf. Obviously my sampling doesn't represent the
population, but the general attitude was that Baidu is woefully subpar and
denying access to information, censored or not, was against Google's stated
mission.
Believe me, I'm greatly disturbed by China's censorship. Talking shit about my
own government is a right I can't imagine losing, let alone access to the
treasure troves of anti-US thought. I also know how terrified I would be if my
own government had the ability to lock down information. Imagine Trump and the
GOP having that power, even for 4 years, and what damage they could do. (And
GOP voters would make the same argument, of course, the other way around, and
already do fear that tech companies are censoring their freedom of thoughts).
So believe me, I'm not trying to defend China here, nor am I trying to shill
for the project. But it's not my lane to opine on, and I had hopes that if the
project _did_ launch, that some good could come out of it. But your concerns
are absolutely valid too.
~~~
FartyMcFarter
> But the Chinese nationals I work with weren't particularly pleased with all
> the westerners speaking on their behalf.
Just because someone thinks their company shouldn't engage in a specific
project due to ethical concerns, that doesn't mean they're speaking on behalf
of the people affected by those ethical violations.
It's perfectly reasonable to want to stop the project due to the ethical
principles alone.
~~~
yorwba
> Just because someone thinks their company shouldn't engage in a specific
> project due to ethical concerns, that doesn't mean they're speaking on
> behalf of the people affected by those ethical violations.
It however presumes that they know enough about the situation to apply those
ethical principles to decide what's best for the people affected.
It's hard to find an analogy for this, but consider milk powder. Due past
scandals about contaminated milk powder, Chinese parents who can afford it
prefer importing milk powder from overseas. Now suppose China bans halal
products. Should a milk powder manufacturer who previously exported both halal
and non-halal milk powder to China continue to export their non-halal powder,
or should they stop exports of both product lines to avoid complying with what
they believe to be an ethical violation, knowing full well that Chinese
consumers will then be exposed to the hazardous milk powder manufactured
domestically?
The alternative to Chinese people getting censored search results from Google
isn't getting uncensored search results from Google, it's getting censored
search results from Baidu.
------
0xcafecafe
I liked the graphics heavy style of the article. Also, it doesn't touch upon
the brutality of the indoctrination camps. There are reports of them being
forced to eat pork, forced marriages,etc. I wonder if this is the closest we
can get to NK outside NK.
~~~
gumby
> I liked the graphics heavy style of the article
I'm glad you posted this because I felt the exact opposite (it's almost always
good to have my assumptions questioned).
I wanted to read some info but I had to click, see a picture, and then see
some small amount of text slowly appear. I closed the tab after seeing that on
the first image -- to me it's basically as worthless as a video. I don't have
the patience for that and feel that the NYT doesn't value my time. Clearly
some people feel the opposite!
I would love to see some data on these experiments by the nyt: do they show
greater revenue than ordinary articles?
~~~
pmarreck
I was on the fence until they used the video to highlight the actual minders
and the videocameras. That sort of thing is hard to convey with text. Has more
impact visually.
------
Ozzie_osman
I don't get why China is taking these extreme measures. I know there's a
general feeling of anxiety towards Muslims (I'm Muslim) and I understand that
China worries about these sorts of cultural issues. But this is really heavy-
handed. Can someone explain this to me?
Of course, I should make clear that I completely condemn this type of behavior
from _any_ country. And point out that letting China get away with this means
many other countries will do the same.
~~~
HansLandaa
Everyone seems to ignore the trouble China has with terrorists in this region.
Plane hijackings, mass killings, suicide bombings. I think that you have to
view what's happening in the context of the violent terrorist attacks that
have occurred.
~~~
sdinsn
Probably because China has a problem with authoritarianism is every region.
Tienanmen Square happened because the Chinese government claimed there was
"unrest" and "crime" when there was just protests about human rights.
------
zachguo
Have you wondered why Xinjiang is like this now?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_conflict](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_conflict)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkistan_Islamic_Party](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkistan_Islamic_Party)
~~~
Ennis
How can civil conflict of any kind possibly justify treatment of civilians by
their own Goverment in this way? Regardless of your intentions that comment is
insensitive and avoidant of the conversation.
~~~
zachguo
It's not "civil conflict", it's terrorism led by a branch of Islamic State
killing thousands of civilians. Have you wonder why all major media release
articles about Xinjiang every week but ignore this important piece of
information intentionally? What kind of consent are they manufacturing now?
Let's make the conversation a bit more constructive, can you offer a better,
effective and peaceful way to prevent future terrorist attacks from happening?
------
Ennis
As technology workers our influence on the world around us is outsized in many
ways. At some point we have to get more heavily involved in building civil
society in local and global ways. Live and let live is a great mantra but it
is failing because we don’t excercize the influence we have in ways that can
prevent these things from happening. If Facebook is toxic it can and should be
forced to change. If the Chinese state is complicit in such large scale crimes
against humanity then it’s ability to trade with us can be severely curtailed
to influence behaviour. Consider California alone passing laws that prohibit
investment or even trade with companies who have investment from such states.
The change will be swift.
------
Hasz
Good lord, that place is unbelievably dystopian. If it wasn't real, I would
have called it a bad Orwellian fiction.
Dozens of security cameras everywhere, inside shops, streets, and even the
mosque. Mandatory government id, tied to a facial recognition regime. No
shortage of well armed police, and plenty of fear.
From another article: " 120,000 Uighurs are being held in Chinese political
reeducation camps in Kashgar prefecture alone, according to Radio Free Asia
(RFA). Guards force detainees to sing patriotic songs, bombard them with
propaganda, and require them to study “Xi Jinping Thought.” Beijing does not
publicly acknowledge the existence of these camps, yet Uighur activists
estimate 1 million Uighurs have been detained since April 2017. "
Given this climate, I find it hard to believe that this is the only activities
going on behind the camp doors.
If there was ever something the US should condemn China for, it's this.
~~~
gdhbcc
Are you describing china or western europeia countries like portugal?
~~~
powerapple
I believe England cities have more cameras
------
tuxxy
When will founders decide that accepting Chinese VC funding is unethical? The
money feeds back into a system that gives human rights very little value.
------
OrgNet
The UI is a bit funky and makes it hard to know when you can press the 'next'
button when you are trying to do it as early as you should
------
qwerty456127
Although I personally find this pretty nightmarish yet I still can acknowledge
it makes some sense and there probably is quite a number of people who would
prefer to live in a surveillance-heavy police-state city (willing to trade
privacy for guaranteed lack of criminals around). So I believe such a city
should exist in every country just for them (in fact the more different kinds
of places to choose from there are in a country - the better) as long as
people outside don't get discriminated and as long as people who lived in the
city before the surveillance system implementation are well-assisted and
compensated in moving out.
------
dmix
> The police sometimes take Uighurs' phones and check to make sure they have
> the compulsory software that monitors calls and messages.
Wow, this is the definition of a modern police state. Sounds like a dystopian
video game.
------
redm
This article looks like digital “rags” should, its editorial, but the rich
media, subtle sound, really bring it to life. It could do with a bit more text
and details, but the format in general is stellar.
------
spectramax
What bothers me about HN is how people here are afraid to criticize the
Chinese government and their authoritarian regime. We should be fearlessly
talking about it. What happens here is the “softening” of opinions either by
A) Comparing with America B) Somehow justifying authoritarian governments by
observing success and economic progress in Shanghai/Shenzhen.
I feel that Googlers inside of Google has the same type of environment but
with combined strong business justification to oppose project DragonFly.
HN is one of the most intellectual communities in the internet, I love reading
comments just about anything here. Except for this topic - I despise HN in
this regard.
In the past, I was told by moderators to not post any inciting comments that
are about China because it ends up being USA vs China. What a shame...While I
agree that the conversation becomes toxic, what’s the point of a community
where I cannot freely express criticism of a government that takes a lot of
risk by real journalists to put stories like this in front of the world.
~~~
theseadroid
As a Chinese, I dont really understand the utility it brings to the table of
people here criticizing Chinese government on issues like this NYT article. I
dont see that it will make China a better place or bring new knowledge to the
HN community. So I agree with the moderator's approach.
The reason being we (me included) are not subject experts on the issues.
>what’s the point of a community where I cannot freely express criticism of a
government that takes a lot of risk by real journalists to put stories like
this in front of the world.
The problem is you are probably not at a position to be able to differentiate
whether this piece is by journalists taking risks and unveiling the truth or
just a subtle propaganda to some degree. (And i'm very surprised by your
confidence in Western media on issues related to China, yet most of HNers
understand how inaccurate media are when dealing within their respective
fields.)
I can go on and on about this topic. I also encourage you to talk to some
Chinese around you who are first generation immigrants, rather than forming a
China criticizing bubble here or somewhere else with other Westerners.
~~~
ohazi
I'm not sure if I've misunderstood your position, but you seem to think that
only subject matter experts should be able to criticize a government. This
seems absolutely crazy to me, and I think you'll find that most Westerners
share my view.
If this was how it worked, the government would be able to claim that _nobody_
is expert enough to criticize, and it would be able to do whatever it wanted
to its citizens. Kind of like how the government works in China, and exactly
like what's happening here.
"You're not an expert. You don't understand. You're not from here. We do
things differently here." The entire international community has criticized
China's treatment of their Uighur population. Yes, China does human rights
differently. We know.
Western governments are accountable to their citizens, expert or not. If the
people think that something is unacceptable, they are expected to express
these thoughts through the Democratic process, and then the government is
required to change its behavior, even if the people were "wrong" in some
expertly measurable way.
The culture in the West sees anything less than this as immoral or corrupt,
and we generally don't consider things like "social orderliness" to be worth
sacrificing Democratic ideals for, as seems to happen in China.
It's not a matter of talking to more first generation Chinese to get a clearer
perspective. I've spoken with ethnic Chinese people who still live and work in
China, and I understand their perspective quite well. Most of them have
understood my perspective too. The issue is not that we don't _understand_
each other, it's that our perspectives and expectations from other people and
from government are different in some pretty significant ways.
~~~
theseadroid
It's very true as you said: >it's that our perspectives and expectations from
other people and from government are different in some pretty significant
ways.
But what I meant is really about whether HN is a good place to discuss this
issue, where for most other discussions we expect to find some good comments
from domain experts.
~~~
spectramax
"it's that our perspectives and expectations from other people and from
government are different in some pretty significant ways"
I think that should not give a license to stop discussion and criticism if you
are from a different country. There is a pretty good understanding of
political ideologies across the world about authoritarianism. We have seen the
results of dictatorships and authoritarian governments and how they turned
out. There is absolutely no reason to say that "It is different, it is a
different perspective about governance". Absolutely, it is different and there
is a universal understanding of what that difference is.
George Orwell accurately outlines what is going on in Kashgar and other
regions in China. He outlined it decades ago.
If I were Chinese citizen, I would be the first one to question the
government's actions. Except, that the Chinese people tried to protest in 1988
and it ended in a massacre.
I have been to China many times and I love the people there, culture, and how
they live lives just like anyone else in the world. Criticism against the
government and political ideology has nothing to do with "an attack against
China". I know you're not saying that but I wanted to clarify.
~~~
theseadroid
>According to the World Bank, more than 500 million people were lifted out of
extreme poverty as China's poverty rate fell from 88 percent in 1981 to 6.5
percent in 2012, as measured by the percentage of people living on the
equivalent of US$1.90 or less per day in 2011 purchasing price parity terms.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China)
If this is not the biggest human right achievement during that 30 years I dont
know what is. I also looked up data from world bank for India and Brazil and
they albeit democracies seem less effective toward eliminating their
proveties.
Do I want China becomes an even better place? yes. I emigrated but not my
close relatives and friends and classmates. I miss them. Can China become a
better place by pressure from western countries? I doubt it. It instead makes
a great number of Chinese more anti-western.
What can make China a better place in my mind, is western countries showing
what real democracy can do to make their own countries better. You bet all the
Trump/Brexit/US healthcare/wars/drugs are not making ordinary Chinese more
exciting embracing democracy.
Or maybe I'm wrong from the beginning that you are not interested in making
China better with those discussions or criticisms.
~~~
tropo
Doesn't China already have democracy? It appears to, despite two unusual
attributes:
1\. Only one party is permitted, effectively making that party a part of the
government and thus being equivalent to banning parties.
2\. You have to be a party member to vote. This is available to those with a
good reputation.
Those oddities don't seem to be disqualifying. The USA didn't begin with
parties or universal suffrage.
~~~
theseadroid
I guess so, I'm not arguing against that.
Furthermore, I'd encourage spectramax or anyone this video if not seen:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs)
(Basically under a dictatorship you still need to represent the citizens in
some degree.)
At this point I don't remember what I'm arguing and again I'm not an expert in
social science who can contribute to a conversation on solving China's problem
or the issue reported by NYT. I hope HN remains as a place where I can always
see insights from people who truly understand the domain and can give
constructive comments.
------
pmarreck
"Today, on 'Real-Life Dystopias'..."
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The MTHFR Gene Mutation and How to Rewire Your Genetics - amelius
https://www.bulletproofexec.com/the-mthfr-gene-mutation-and-how-to-rewire-your-genetics/
======
diminish
Refactoring your DNA mayh help too..
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Wild IIlusions: 5 startups experiments I like to try - zaveri
http://ac-idealog.blogspot.com/2009/04/5-startups-experiments-i-like-to-try.html
======
dmix
Startups or applications?
Scanning the list I see twitter, bit.ly tags, and firefox plugin.
These might be experiments in creating products but I don't see any concrete
businesses.
------
paulbaumgart
#2 and #5 sound like they might actually have some revenue potential, but a
startup based on a "Firefox plug-in to provide real time analytics for your
links"? That sounds like a neat side-project, but I can't imagine how to found
a company around that.
------
lacker
Real time link analytics seems like a great idea. It would be neat to open a
chat box on the corner of the page with someone who was using the site in a
weird way, and start talking to them about what they were hoping for.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
How Fear Can Derail an Entrepreneur - T-A
http://www.wsj.com/articles/how-fear-can-derail-an-entrepreneur-1440381701
======
lglassop
As a mature female founder who started her business at age 55 I think I have
fear under control...NOT! I think fear is also a motivator, without it, you
could be a bit reckless.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Microsoft’s new ‘M’ programming language - nickb
http://thecoffeedesk.com/news/index.php/archives/74
======
cosmo7
So you are imagining what this language is and then complaining about it?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Show HN: Redux JSON Router – Declarative, Redux-First Routing for the Browser - mksarge
https://github.com/mksarge/redux-json-router
======
mksarge
I started this project to learn about Redux middleware and client-side routing
in React/Redux. It's my first open-source library, so tips/suggestions are
greatly appreciated!
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: Trigger finger and tendonitis - odammit
I tend to get extremely painful forearm tendonitis and trigger finger from my Mac's trackpad to the point my finger will stop functioning and I have to get cortisone shots every year or so.<p>I generally use shortcut keys, but inevitably I use my trackpad when I'm in learning mode (scrolling through blogs, changing tabs, etc).<p>I purchased an Evoluent mouse to switch back and forth and ended up getting shoulder tendonitis. I bought a Wacom tablet and switch between all three. It helps, but I look like an input device diva.<p>If you get or used to get frequent tendonitis, how do you relieve it or avoid it?
======
nostrademons
I've intermittently had the same problem. Some basic habits you can change to
help:
Cmd-Tab (and Ctrl/Shift-Tab) should not be done with one hand! Hold down Cmd
with your right hand and hit tab with your left. This one change probably
helped my "tendonitis claw" more than anything else. Similarly, other keyboard
shortcuts should involve holding down the opposite modifier key from the key
being pressed.
Let your fingers float above the keyboard. A lot of people rest their wrists
on the wrist-rest and try to type; this puts a lot of pressure on the carpal
tunnel, and means you have to curl your fingers more.
Two-finger scroll with your wrist & upper arm, not your fingers. It should be
a really subtle movement, too, just a few millimeters displacement.
Editor wars aside, vim is better than emacs (& TextMate etc, though emacs is
the worst offender) for RSI. Modal editing doesn't require that you hold down
modifiers.
Take thinking breaks. When your code is compiling or you have a tough problem,
get up and walk around instead of cmd-tabbing to a blog.
Don't let yourself get mad or frustrated at your code. Get up and take a walk
or talk to someone instead. This is actually pretty challenging, because I've
found that intensive coding tends to shut down the emotional processing parts
of my brain. But that's also why it's dangerous: when you aren't consciously
processing emotions, they can often get "stuck" as muscle tension; your back
and shoulder muscles might remember that you were mad, or your fingers that
you were frustrated, even though consciously you don't. Relaxation or
meditation exercises can help get muscles un-stuck, but ideally you should be
relaxed whenever you're typing.
If all else fails, switch to Dvorak. It's somewhat better for finger-movement
than Qwerty, although I'm not sure the benefit outweighs the switching cost
unless your fingers are really bothering you.
~~~
odammit
Thanks. I'm going to give these a swing. I'm definitely guilty of going into a
k-hole when I work and generally only stopping once I'm hungry.
I've stopped resting my wrist. I made a little tack strip that I'd lay on my
laptop while I was working to train me not to rest them.
Have you tried Dvorak? I've considered it multiple times but always worry
about if I'll lose the ability to use a standard keyboard. Although - how
often do you use someone else's keyboard :/
~~~
nostrademons
Been using Dvorak since college. I did lose the ability to use a standard
keyboard for a bit but gained it back. (The switching process is actually
quite fascinating from a cognitive POV...there was a point where I would type
half a word in Dvorak and half in Qwerty, resulting in nonsense, and then a
later period when the keyboard layout I would type in was conditioned by which
app was on the screen.) I'd say the speed boost is about 10-15% and it helps
quite a bit for RSI, but it was a good year or two before I was back up to my
previous Qwerty speeds and fluent on both keyboards, so it takes a while to
recoup your investment. A decade and a half later I can say it was worthwhile,
but don't expect miracles.
------
itamarst
Short list:
1\. Wear warm clothing: I'm very serious, this really helped me.
2\. Got a Kinesis Advantage keyboard. Use normal mouse, but in left hand since
right hand does more work (I'm right-handed).
3\. Standing desk helps encourage correct posture for me(90 degrees in elbow,
arms straight down in shoulder), but can be done at desk.
Longer version: [https://codewithoutrules.com/2016/11/18/rsi-
solution/](https://codewithoutrules.com/2016/11/18/rsi-solution/)
------
giardini
Switch hands! Give your current hand some time to heal and then alternate
hands day-by-day. This cuts the workload in half.
~~~
odammit
That's what I'm currently doing with the tablet and the vertical mouse. I have
the tablet on my left side the mouse on my right and then it's just a matter
of remembering to not use my trackpad :-)
------
PaulHoule
Push ups
~~~
odammit
Really?! Do you do them throughout the day or before/after work?
~~~
PaulHoule
I did them in the morning.
The theory behind it is that in action the fingers are part of a kinematic
chain and that involves your arms and the rest of your torso. Push-ups work
all of those muscles as a group and can improve function of the whole system.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: I'm a contractor, how do I find good work? - Ixiaus
Short and simple: I'm a contractor, I'm not in dire straights, but I want better work that is stimulating and pays well. I also want to get out of the "PHP rut", I've been enchanted by Python (my favorite language second to Scheme) and also consider Ruby to be an elegant option. But how!?<p>I've had core commit privileges to the open source Kohana PHP framework for over two years, worked for a startup, IP firm, entertainment venue, and now myself. I'm not lacking in skill or experience. The work I do have right now is from referrals and word of mouth.<p>Should I be networking in my area better? Advice on how I might go about that? When my schedule coincides, I plan to participate in the regional Hacker News meetup to make some friends. Should I publish more on the internet? Use my website a bit more?
======
djb_hackernews
Check out local meetup.com groups. I'm a "member" of the DC python group and
there is always someone mentioning they are looking for work during the intro
session of the meetups. I don't know if it pans out for any of them but good
place to network.
~~~
Ixiaus
I like that suggestion, I was big on meetups for a while when I lived in Vegas
for hiking and the like, hadn't thought to join (or start) a tech related
meetup.
------
kilian
To paraphrase a generic web2.oh buzzword: "local, local, local".
Go to local opencoffees, go to local business meetups (they're there, albeit
harder to find, and they have nothing to do with webby stuff and are filled
with people to do work for). Of course HN meetups or other *UG meetups are
great for contacts as well, but the biggest chance for clients will be at the
suit/tie business meetups.
~~~
Ixiaus
This is a good suggestion, thank you! Maybe the local chamber of commerce
too...
------
ArabGeek
why not start a blog to publish tips and tricks in PHP and Python? also being
active on developers and startups community would help you get known, try
<http://arabcrunch.net/developers_qna>
also use Twitter socialize with related people.
------
sidmitra
Have you tried places like Elance?
~~~
Ixiaus
I specifically avoid Elance, ODesk, and RAC type marketplaces.
~~~
sidmitra
is there a reason? I don't see why you should, amidst all the cruft, there are
good projects there some times.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
What does it take to get a PC with XP? - procyon
http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php/id;1496591483;fp;2;fpid;2
======
jasonkester
I ordered an XP "downgrade" box from Dell just yesterday. It was just a tick
box on the OS list, and didn't add any cost or force me to jump through hoops.
Speccing the same machine through Lenovo's website was a little more painful,
but still doable. Looks like XP will stay around for a while.
~~~
truebosko
That's weird, as I just purchased a simple Dell machine for our office today
and I had an additional cost of around $100 to downgrade to XP. It wasn't a
special XP box, just the Vostro so perhaps that is why.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Wasted Creativity in the GNU/Linux Distribution Diversity - gnuarch
https://write.as/text/wasted-creativity-in-the-gnu-linux-distribution-diversity
======
jlarocco
Not this self-centered, ignorant complaint again.
Even if this time really is 100% wasted, it's not _your_ wasted time, so it's
none of your business anyway. Open source devs don't owe your their time, and
you're not entitled to tell them what to work on.
But the time isn't wasted, in any case. If existing solutions met people's
needs the alternatives wouldn't have been created. A huge project like a
desktop manager or a Linux distribution doesn't get spun up on a whim because
somebody doesn't like a desktop background, and it's telling that that's the
only difference the author notices.
~~~
ken
Note that this position is mutually exclusive with "It's open source so you
can just fix it yourself when it breaks". I _can_ go fix it myself, sure, but
then it _is_ my wasted time, that there are 8 or 10 major distros. We
shouldn't have to fix the same bug so many times.
I don't want 8 or 10 distros. I only want one. I don't even care which one it
is. I haven't contributed to that OS in 10 years _because_ so much of my time
ended up being wasted.
Or, if you take the position that "Developers don't owe you anything", then
that's fair on its own, but it means that it's not an OS that I can depend on
for anything. It's true there's no literal debt to be repaid but project
maintainers are supposed to be good stewards. They can be replaced, but it's a
slow and rare process. I can count on my fingers how many successful open
source forks I've seen. Most projects will die before they'll change
maintainers.
> If existing solutions met people's needs the alternatives wouldn't have been
> created.
That doesn't follow at all. There are plenty of reasons for starting an
alternative software project which have nothing to do with meeting any user
need. "Ego" is a common one -- it serves only one person's interest.
~~~
jlarocco
> Note that this position is mutually exclusive with "It's open source so you
> can just fix it yourself when it breaks". I can go fix it myself, sure, but
> then it is my wasted time, that there are 8 or 10 major distros. We
> shouldn't have to fix the same bug so many times.
They seem to be complimentary ideas. I might refuse to fix your bug or add the
feature you want, but you're free to take my code and do it yourself. It's no
more a waste of your time than it would be of the other dev's.
I also don't see what you're saying about fixing the same bug 10 times. That's
not how it works. Each distro is responsible for itself. If you submit a fix
to zsh, for example, it's up to each distro to go upstream and get that fix
themselves. Same goes for bugs fixed by distro maintainers - it's awesome if
they submit the fix to the upstream, but they're not obligated.
> Or, if you take the position that "Developers don't owe you anything", then
> that's fair on its own, but it means that it's not an OS that I can depend
> on for anything.
And maybe you shouldn't. "Buyer beware" should apply double when you're
getting something for free.
Paid Linux distros exist for a reason. If you're depending on it for something
important it's worth paying for Ubuntu or RHEL.
> That doesn't follow at all. There are plenty of reasons for starting an
> alternative software project which have nothing to do with meeting any user
> need. "Ego" is a common one -- it serves only one person's interest.
Exactly, there are plenty of reasons. Just because _you_ think they're bad
reasons doesn't mean they are, or that anybody has to listen to you.
------
theonemind
Well, perhaps so, but Linus, regarding Linux (although I think he meant mostly
the kernel), said,
"I'm deadly serious: we humans have never been able to replicate something
more complicated than what we ourselves are, yet natural selection did it
without even thinking. Don't underestimate the power of survival of the
fittest. And don't ever make the mistake that you can design something better
than what you get from ruthless massively parallel trial-and-error with a
feedback cycle. That's giving your intelligence much too much credit."
In that light, this strikes me like complaining that we have too many kinds of
beetles. Linux distributions just work this way.
~~~
ken
That is indeed a powerful mechanism -- but it still sucks to be a beetle,
especially if you're not on a dominant branch of your family tree.
Imagine you had the job of recruiting beetles. You'll die soon, and your
offspring (if you have any) probably will, too! What's the upside? Your
species will be stronger for your death! That's a pretty tough sell. You're
going to get the young and ambitious, and they're going to fight each other as
much as they possibly can.
That's not the only way to win, or even the best. Pine trees are genetically
successful, too, and they don't go out and murder each other.
I wouldn't complain that there are too many kinds of beetles, but I would
complain that there are very few trees. It would be sad if beetles were the
highest form of life on the planet.
------
markstos
Bah. Diversity is good for the ecosystem.
Do you complain about the plants and animals with only minor differences as
being redundant, a waste of evolutionary effort?
Just a generation ago there was understanding that we had let too much power
accumulate into too few large, multi-national corporations.
Then we got a chance to start over with the internet and new digital
companies. How quickly we repeated the same mistakes. Now we have trillion
dollar tech companies and wonder if they've gotten too big, too centralized.
What cognitive dissonance to bemoan the consolidated power of just a few FAANG
companies while also complaining that the diversity in open source software
isn't the kind of diversity you'd like to see.
------
brendangregg
I worked on Sun Solaris (it's now dead, I know), and now on Linux. This was
like switching from a Universe with one Linux distro, to the current one with
many.
The speed and priority of bug fixes and feature development was higher with
one distro. Everyone was working on the one thing. Any bug ever found could go
straight to _the_ best engineer to fix it, who could replicate it
_immediately_ since they were running that distro as well, and they could make
it a priority to fix as it affected _all_ customers.
Now consider many Linux distros. A user says "this doesn't compile on
NiftyLinux". A) The developer hasn't even heard of NiftyLinux, and doesn't
have immediate access to reproduce the bug. B) It's a low priority to fix,
since most of the developer's users are on Ubuntu or CentOS.
I've felt this firsthand with the performance tools I've developed for Solaris
and Linux. With Solaris I could provide better support. With Linux, there's
bugs that are open for months or years for odd Linux distros that I don't have
time to explore.
------
dansman805
On one hand, time and effort is wasted doing the same thing 100 times with
slight differences rather than just working on the same thing. But on the
other hand, in my opinion these differences are very important. For example,
you listed that only a few desktop environments are necessary. While that may
be true for the vast majority of Linux users, the more fringe desktop
environments/window managers are great. For example, I use i3wm daily and it's
a pleasure to use. While some of the DEs listed in the article may have some
tiling, the WMs designed specifically for tiling do it better (in my opinion).
That's the glorious thing about there being many tools that do ostensibly the
same thing, you can almost always find a tool that fits your niche use case.
~~~
gnuarch
Good point, at least i3 or sway don't do their own distributions – afaik.
~~~
dansman805
There is manjaro i3 edition, and if I recall correctly another more minor
distro that does i3 by default, but for the most part it is user installed,
yes.
------
noja
A very top-down utilitarian way of thinking about it. So what if there _is_
wasted effort, people want to do that, so they do.
------
eterps
And the most creative distribution IMO: NixOS isn't even mentioned.
------
kgwxd
There is 0 substance to that link. How did this hit the front page?
~~~
gnuarch
There's the rub. Many distributions hardly add any substance, yet the topic is
so popular.
~~~
agumonkey
Because people wants to express themselves. Tweaking and repackaging feels
like something for the young nerd or the tech saavy layman. It feels like
making an OS and OSes are semi god for the computer crowd.
------
dsego
I agree, it's ridiculous. Hundreds of distros but all include the same 5-10
usable apps. Great, I can run GIMP on Ubuntu, Fedora, Solus, Mint, Elementary,
etc. It's still GIMP.
------
b0rsuk
I think many people contribute to Linux _because_ there are all these extra
distros. People have different needs, and gather around a different itch to
scratch. If there wasn't a distro focusing on Rasberry Pi, performance or
security, they wouldn't be there.
It's like saying there should only be 10 programming languages. Vast majority
of programming languages never takes off, and many are very niche. But you
never know which are going to take off and when.
------
mimixco
I don't think the problem is too many options. This is one of the great
benefits of the free market.
The biggest problem with Linux distros, IMHO, is that nobody has really
created a packaged install that's simple for users to get running. Ubuntu is
ahead of the pack but there are still many issues... creating a USB boot
stick, using Ubuntu under Windows, accessing your network with a VPN -- those
a just a few I've experienced.
Until a Linux distro gets to the level of packaged, simple installation like
users enjoy with Windows and Macs, the operating system won't take off on the
desktop. And that's a real shame. We need open source software more than ever.
Perhaps there's room in the market for _just one more_ distro that can solve
this!
~~~
jcastro
> simple for users to get running.
This doesn't matter. Most users don't install operating systems, they just use
what comes with their computer.
The real issue for most people is "Why would I use this"?
~~~
mimixco
That's a very good point.
------
giomasce
It seems that the author is only aware of the existence of general-purpose
distributions. They did not list any distribution with, say, different
approach to packaging, or for use in HPC, security, NAS, embedded, you name
it. Also, for some reason they cannot avoid listing more or less all well
established general-purpose distributions, while that is really the list
between which you are supposed to choose one or two if you care about not
trying many similar things. It seems that the only criterion to be on this
list is to be well known. Same for the DEs.
------
spacesuitman2
It's not wasted at all - people are learning and configuring, tweaking and
optimizing their use of a computer. I for one really like the fact that
Manjaro is an easy Arch for me. Is it wasted creativity now that I can focus
on non-distro work since I found my distro?
Besides, who is the author to tell people to not waste creativity. It's
remarkable to have this audacity. Even the notion of "wasted" creativity is
just not nuanced.
------
a3n
Why not just Slackware?
The author's list got to be the list in mutual cooperation and competition
with the list and others.
------
haolez
Not sure why, but this remembered me of Tiny Core Linux:
[https://distro.ibiblio.org/tinycorelinux/](https://distro.ibiblio.org/tinycorelinux/)
It's a very different and clever way of deploying Linux.
------
darkr
¯\\_(ツ)_/¯ People are free to do whatever the fuck they want with their time
and creative energy.
Here’s to anyone who ever scratched an itch, created something and then gave
away the fruits of their labour for free.
A thousand more distributions and desktop environments!
------
jotm
One can dream... Linux would've replaced Windows by now if that happened.
~~~
a3n
What sales force would have caused Linux to be the default on mainstream
hardware?
~~~
markstos
Google. Shipping Chrome OS.
~~~
yarosv
Chrome OS is not Linux, or I should say GNU/Linux (although this name lost its
meaning too). Just like Android is not Linux either.
------
seba_dos1
This makes me want to spend some time creating a new distribution with its own
desktop environment.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Tom Scott: How the First Ever Telecoms Scam Worked [video] - lifthrasiir
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPeVsniB7b0
======
lifthrasiir
I'm not a fan of video-first contents, but I'm linking to Tom Scott because he
commissioned various source materials and their translations just for this
video as it turned out that all existing English sources varied in details. I
love this amount of dedication.
(If you simply don't like videos, Wikipedia gives a reasonable article:
[https://www.inc.com/magazine/19990915/13554.html](https://www.inc.com/magazine/19990915/13554.html))
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
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Incorporation and stock sharing dilemma - atiw
Hi everyone,
This is my first post here.
I have been just a silent reader all this time.
Finally I get to post something as well.
Hope this helps others as well.<p>So, let's get started.
(P.S. - I am avoiding mentioning names of stuff like university etc, since it will be very<p>embarrassing if this gets read by my future co-founder, as he doesn't know about this dilemma i am facing yet)<p>First, A little background. I graduated as a Master's in CS from a reputable university this<p>summer. I am planning to start this company that uses AI to solve some major NP complete<p>problems related to resource allocation problems. It's planned to be a software product company.<p>This has been a product of my master's thesis.
So, obviously the IP(Intellectual Property) is in both mine and my adviser's name. This idea is<p>basically an evolution of his idea, which his earlier students had been trying their hands on,<p>but it didn't quite work as well as it was supposed to be.<p>And finally, I came along and with all my magic touch (If you can believe that), we did it. I<p>started implementing from scratch and finally after one and half years or so, we got it working.
Now, this product has myriad applications and all that, but we want to focus on two, at most,<p>for now, and see where we go from there. and when i say we, i mean the company.<p>I guess we have enough information now.<p>I have two major questions for you guys.<p>1. I have to incorporate this company sometime this week, since we had a demo last Friday and it<p>went very well. Now, the users are asking for this product, so this is the right time to incorporate and start selling i guess.<p>Now, I am not sure what kind of company it has to be.
According to Ycombinator FAQs, we need to be a C-Corp. I am wondering "Is that like the common<p>requirement to accept money from any of the other investors as well? or is it just YC? ".
How about other types? LLC? etc etc. I am not even sure what other types are out there, except these and S-corps.
How about S-Corps? I have heard about S-Corp but i am not really sure if startups qualify.<p>2. And the more important one. So, I finally had the guts to ask him (my adviser) about our<p>stock distribution as co founders of this new company.
His thoughts were the following:<p>"We make it 50-50, except since he will be continuing his full time job as a professor/head of department and I am doing all the coding full time (most of it is done already), I get a fixed salary(not yet decided) first from the revenue and then we evenly get 50-50."<p>Now, I was all happy with this for a few hours, thinking this is great. I start selling my<p>product, and apply to Ycombinator, which obviously is going to invest once they hear of me, my co founder, my company and my product. And I get to go live in bay area and share the startup experience with you guys.<p>And then i called people to talk about this and share this great news...
I go : "Hey, listen, my adviser wants to open a company with me. How cool is that? This is totally awesome. He is a genius, and
now he wants to partner with me"<p>Too bad, I had mixed opinions from them and that got me all confused.<p>Here's the thing.
I am pretty sure he is NOT going to leave his job.
And I am the one who has coded everything in this product.
But the initial idea was his. IP is shared between both of us.<p>But if you ask me, he taught me everything related to this idea, and he has been helping me<p>through the worst of my times(I was in a coma, horrible horrible stuff happened to me,and he<p>agreed to give me a chance and guide me , believed in me, when i was almost broke...so....u<p>know...he is like...i don;t know, if you divide god into half....one half....well whatever,<p>that's another long story...maybe later)<p>He is not bringing in any coding to the company, though we always talk through all features of<p>the product and decide it. He is not an MBA, he is more like a head of dept now. He has opened 2<p>startups, he has so much more experience, he is a brilliant guy and i feel so lucky for even<p>being able to work with him. He is like one of the gods of his field.
But we haven't decided roles specifically yet.
And someone said that his offer of the whole 50-50 is unfair and all.<p>Now, I am confused here.
What do people do when one of the co founders is technical, but he is more like an abstract<p>adviser, still a top guy in his field in academics?
and in this case,he is not even going to work full time for the company.
but he is like eric schmidt in some sense, that he actually manages a lot of stuff in his<p>current position (u knw, like eric was working for google and apple until recently, and like he<p>was a chairman for quite some time with google, before he switched over to google as CEO back<p>then).<p>I am not even sure at this point exactly what his role would be.
I just know what it won't be.
Also, his name and reputation follows him.
Having him on my side is really good.<p>Just that I don't know how to make sure I don't feel like a fool later on.
Coz I have read everywhere, it's better to settle all co founders issues from the very beginning<p>and better put things on paper.<p>So, I see these as his plus points:
1. Co-inventor of the technology.
2. Great Mentor.
3. Great qualifications.
4. Experience.
5. Good contacts.
6. Highly Technical guy.<p>And the minus:
1. I am considerably younger, so getting a buddy like feeling is almost impossible.
2. I might feel like I am working alone until I get some developers as employees, which might<p>take time since we have the product ready to sell.
3. Not a coder.
4. Not full time employee, more like a partner who runs other stuff as well.<p>I am dying to hear from you guys on this.
======
atiw
P.S. - I might have said something that led people believe he is bringing
investment too. Well, He is NOT. He is NOT investing or bringing in money of
any sorts. So more I think about it, it's more like consulting.
Now, what are your thoughts, after I told you guys this explicitly (somehow I
thought it was obvious...should have mentioned this in the minus points, now I
don't seem to be able to edit the post...anyone willing to help me with doing
that....that way whoever reads the post gets the whole scenario.)
------
bdfh42
The past is a "sunk cost". Start from today. Who is doing what into the
future.
Do not undervalue a founder who can bring in investment but equally do not
over-value this attribute. Think about how you would go about compensating
another developer joining the team - how would that change the stock split -
do you need to reserve shares for future contributors.
If you must go 50:50 with a salary (when income flows) - negotiate how you can
convert salary into stock.
~~~
yalurker
The past is not a "sunk cost" given the IP issue. It sounds like the poster
just continued research the prof was already doing in his lab.
At an extreme, suppose OP just abandoned the prof and started the company
solo. Certainly the prof could later sue for his fair share. I would suspect
the University (and/or agency the research funding came from) may have some IP
rights here too.
Essentially, you can't just treat this as "the start of a business". You need
to look at it as "we invented something in the lab, and now we want to sell
it".
He can certainly negotiate, but 50/50 does not sound unreasonable. One key
component in my mind would be "how much value was created already" versus "how
much value will be added in the coming months/years".
~~~
atiw
Well, let me put it this way. I am not going to abandon my prof in any case,
both due to respect and sense of legality and righteousness. What I want is to
figure out a way to make everyone happy, future investors, and both of us. But
I agree with yalurker, in the sense that: yes, this is something invented in
the lab, only by me and my prof, and we want to sell it since it's so matured
now. The university is going to release the IP to both of us, and we will be
paying the university an agreed upon share, it's 10% as we have been told. So,
really it's more like an issue between our shares that's troubling me so much.
In a perfect world, he could have joined me in the venture and i would have
gladly made it 50-50 (hell, i would have even gone for 55-45), or maybe i
wouldn't have told my peers this and never would have been asking this
question anyways, both to myself and to all of you. If only it was a perfect
world....
I hope somehow we get close enough to the magic number, which would make
everyone happy.
------
jacquesm
c-corps are fine, but I think you have to solve your other issue first.
50/50 means a 50/50 commitment.
In the situation you sketch it's more like 90/10, after all it's free money to
your adviser.
I highly doubt a VC would invest in a company that has 50% deadwood on board
from day one.
See the 50/50 as an opening offer, now the negotiations begin. You're young,
he can't do it without you but you have plenty of time and energy to go and do
something else, obviously you've got talent.
remeber: everything comes to those who wait, negotiating under pressure is the
worst you can do, you have to get in to the mindset that it can take as long
as you want, best to not do any deal than to do a bad one.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Self-Driving Cars May One Day Face Decision of Who to Save or Kill - jaequery
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/driving-cars-day-face-decision-save-kill/story?id=40072003
======
jaequery
"Would you get into an automated self-driving vehicle, knowing that in the
event of an accident, it might sacrifice your life if it meant saving the
lives of 10 other people?"
Interesting dilemma.
------
yehosef
Or with less sugar coating - "Robots will decide who to kill"
------
boznz
I wouldn't want to write the if..then statement for that decision..
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Assessing a Company: Questions you need to ask in an Interview - mikeinterviewst
http://blog.interviewstreet.com/2011/12/assessing-a-company-questions-you-need-to-ask-in-an-interview/
======
jacques_chester
Interviewers do "leak" information to interviewees. I once turned down a
lucrative job offer because, during the interview, the interviewer had told me
"hilarious" anecdotes about the CEO changing his mind every few days.
Here's a more technically-slanted list of questions I've used during
interviews:
[http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/apae9/interview...](http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/apae9/interviewing_for_a_programming_job_does_anyone/c0iqgve)
------
nigelsampson
I've found a lot of companies don't like giving feedback of negative outcomes
for fear of opening themselves up to some sort of liability around
discrimination.
Realistically it shouldn't be a problem if they handled the interview
correctly, but some prefer not to take the risk.
~~~
jacques_chester
> I've found a lot of companies don't like giving feedback of negative
> outcomes for fear of opening themselves up to some sort of liability around
> discrimination.
In itself, this is a useful indicator of corporate culture.
~~~
Peroni
Very valid point. Whilst it's not necessarily indicative of a 'bad' company as
such, anyone who refuses feedback as a matter of course is generally a company
driven by compliance. not always a good thing.
------
jroseattle
This is a really good starting point. Questions can obviously go deeper,
relative to the particular industry, to learn more about a company. The main
point is not only the information you get, but gauging responses to those
questions.
If you're being interviewed, turn yourself into the interviewer at this stage.
Be prepared -- take notes, bring materials from the website or other content
to reference during the conversation, and have your questions planned out
thoughtfully ahead of time.
Generally, a recruiter is not the best person to ask questions, though. Try to
ask questions to the hiring manager. Strive to learn the
organizational/corporate pain points. Ask questions to gain information, but
also to get beyond understanding "culture" to understanding biases and
preferences. Rarely do interviewers make that clear, in spite of the
intentions of their communication.
Last, one general comment about questions: if they can't be answered to your
satisfaction, mark it as a red flag. If you, the candidate, can think about
something in the short term and a business that's focused on that thing can't
or won't respond in a way that's clear, that should be a clear indication of a
problem.
------
asanwal
This is a fantastic guide that I think anyone thinking of working at a startup
should read. There is far too much hype, personality and gimmickry it seems
around startup hiring much of the time.
We're interviewing lots of folks these days and here are some more questions I
think candidates should ask or which we've been asked which I appreciate:
1\. How many months (or years) of cash do you have in the bank?
The founder might not say the exact number of dollars, but they should be
willing to give you a # of months/years left esp if they're not revenue
generating and are reliant on other people's money (VCs, angels). If it's 3 or
6 months, I'd think twice as there are no guarantees of funding being raised
and do you really want to be job-seeking in 3 or 6 months or get laid off cuz
of the Last In, First Out principal? There are no guarantees of more money
being raised. Plus they might be exaggerating about how much they actually
have. If I were a candidate, I'd love to hear 2 years but 1 year at a minimum.
2 years only happens generally if the business is real (making
revenues/profits)
Clarification: On the money in bank question, you're looking for real money in
the bank now. Not what they expect based on their projections or if they land
that big customer they are "on the verge of landing" or the "we have
termsheets from investors and will be closing in the next few weeks" -- none
of those are money, they are promises/hope. So perhaps the better way to ask
this is "If you earned no more revenue or got more financing after today, how
long will the money you have in the bank today last the company?" -- Also,
this is a question you should only ask of a founder, CEO as they'll prob be in
the best position to actually answer it.
2\. What specific projects do you see me working on if I were to join?
This may in all likelihood change by the time you join, but they should have a
clearly defined plan for the areas your talents and skills be used. This will
help give you a sense for what you'll be doing as well and whether it's
interesting. I also think if they articulate some nasty, unpleasant work
you'll be doing, that is good as well. Jobs are rarely all rainbows and
butterflies so someone who is going to be honest with you about the good, bad
and ugly up front is probably better than someone trying to sugarcoat up front
with all the amazing stuff you'll be doing every day to "change the world and
make people's lives better."
My only comment on the post is the question about "What technologies do you
want to be utilizing?"
Technology enables solutions to problems. So whether some company is adopting
some new, shiny technology is less relevant than whether they're using
technology in a way that is solving a real problem and ideally becoming a
real, fast-growing business.
I think the better question is to somehow gauge their receptivity to being
flexible about technology if there is a real benefit to doing so. Not sure the
right question to test for "technology rigidity" but that is the question I'd
ask if I were a candidate talking to us or any startup.
~~~
jacques_chester
> On the money in bank question, you're looking for real money in the bank
> now.
Another way to put this: "can I see your current balance sheet and cashflow
statement"?
Serves two purposes:
1\. If they say yes, you get to see their actual assets and cash flow, unless
they're flat out liars.
2\. Whether they say yes or no, their degree of reluctance or acceptance is
informative about managerial culture.
~~~
temphn
For one data point: as an employer, if someone asked me that in a job
interview I'd think they were complete mercenaries and highly
distrustful/cynical. Would smile, respond with something noncommittal about
how the board won't let us share that kind of information, and cut short the
interview as soon as possible.
Think about it from our perspective: part of the point of being a non-public
company is that you can keep some things close to the vest, like profits and
balance sheet. Perhaps 50% of the people we interview don't end up getting a
position. What if you take that info and share it with competitors, or plaster
it on TechCrunch?
This is particularly true if this was a follow up to a previous question
(which is borderline) about how many months of cash were in the bank.
Should you judge the financial health of a company? Sure. Look them up on
CrunchBase, observe the surroundings, do some research into market size
yourself. But have some tact.
~~~
jacques_chester
> For one data point: as an employer, if someone asked me that in a job
> interview I'd think they were complete mercenaries and highly
> distrustful/cynical.
Now this is interesting. What triggers that reaction? Is it asking for the
particular documents, or is it the request for meaningful information?
> Perhaps 50% of the people we interview don't end up getting a position. What
> if you take that info and share it with competitors, or plaster it on
> TechCrunch?
Good point, and looking at it from your perspective, sure, I'd be reluctant to
open the kimono too. The main thing that stops _me_ , since we're swapping
data points, is that it would be the wrong thing to do. Betraying confidences
is both unethical and often contrary to the protections of common law.
> This is particularly true if this was a follow up to a previous question
> (which is borderline) about how many months of cash were in the bank.
If you then smiled and cut me short, _I'd_ be suspicious. It sounds like we
both lost.
~~~
temphn
> Now this is interesting. What triggers that reaction? Is it asking for the
> particular documents, or is it the request for meaningful information?
It's sort of like a woman who asks you what car you drive right off the bat,
on the first date. It indicates she is only in it for the money. And that she
also lacks the social intelligence necessary to gain information without
revealing that she's only in it for the money.
For a startup to succeed its people need to be a bit irrational. A pure profit
maximizing strategy for a good developer is just to do something boring at
Google. You aren't joining a startup to do median case profit maximization,
you're doing it to (a) do something interesting for a change and (b) have a
shot at a big payday.
Now, there's a certain undercurrent here at HN that says "F you, pay me". OK,
but this is not the type of personality that is likely to build something
great. They are the first ones to bail when things get rough, the first ones
to trash their former (or current) employers, the first ones to lay blame.
There is a role for highly skilled mercenaries, just as there is a role for
really beautiful golddiggers. But they should gravitate to Google/really rich
men, as that's where they'll find a mutually satisfactory exchange.
~~~
jacques_chester
What about the "runway" question?
It's the same thing: I want a sense of the risk I'm taking, but without
signalling (incorrectly IMO) that I'm just such a mercenary.
------
polymatter
Research is something everyone stresses, but it is something I struggle with
and I would really like to see more advice on it. Advice on parsing the data I
get rather than more data.
Now I've gotten into the habit of only looking at directors statements on
their annual reports when I need to research a company. I get so little from
the rest of their website, I can spend hours and not understand anything more
than the names of their products/services. I have the distinct impression that
coding teaches me to only believe what is stated, whereas parsing marketing
text is all about reading the lines, which I am terrible at.
------
lemming
In addition to the excellent questions here about revenue and runway, if
equity is a significant part of your comp (read: if you could make more money
elsewhere and you're not taking the pay hit because it's the job of your
dreams) there are more things you need to know. I'd want to know total
investment, the liquidation preference and if the preferred stock is
participating. This will give you a good idea of the exit required for your
stock to actually be worth anything. Knowing the makeup of the board is useful
too, i.e. how many are VCs compared to common holders.
------
codenerdz
I would love to be able to find the following information without seeming to
be afraid of working hard:
"How often do you expect your employees to work extreme hours in order to be
competitive in your company?"
If the culture of the company supports 60-80 hour weeks, it may not be
apparent in a job interview... and even if it doesn't, asking this question
incorrectly may paint you lazy or unwilling to put in time if(hopefully
infrequently) necessary
~~~
Tichy
If you are unwilling to work 60-80 hour work weeks, what is the point in lying
about it? Would you make an exception for some companies?
~~~
codenerdz
There is a difference between working 60-80 hour weeks all the time vs putting
in a week of crunch time that happens rarely. Latter is oftentimes inevitable,
whereas the former is a sign of poor time management IMHO.
There was nothing in my question about lying, It just seems that is very tough
to emphasise your dislike of constant 60-80hr weeks and still be able to
convey the fact that you wont shy away from a late night work when absolutely
necessary.
~~~
nandemo
That's why the author writes " _How often_ do you expect...". Of course you
can choose a different wording if you want to be clearer. Also, note that this
happens in a face-to-face conversation, so you can always gauge the reaction
of the interviewer, qualify your question, etc. I usually ask "how are your
working hours like?", and add that I'm _used_ to working overtime and weekends
-- that not only avoids the impression you mention, but also makes the
interviewer more likely to be honest in their answer.
By the way, I wouldn't call someone who doesn't want to do overtime "lazy".
For instance, just because I'm "used" to working long hours doesn't mean that
I'm indifferent to it.
------
troels
_If you left them with an impression you don’t agree with, the fact of the
matter is you did leave them with that impression so you simply need to figure
out how to make the same mistakes next time round._
Or, you know, how to avoid them ;)
Good advice by the way. I have always made a point of asking this my self, and
when I have been hiring, I would always try to answer as well and honest as
possible, if candidates ask for it.
------
johnobrien102
These might be questions to ask after you get the offer, but IMHO you'll
likely decrease your chances of getting the job if you ask them early in the
interview process.
~~~
Peroni
I couldn't disagree more (obviously).
There is nothing in those questions that could lead an employer to think that
you wouldn't be suitable. They are intelligent, natural questions and the
answers are very relevant to someone applying for a job.
Once an offer has been made, the opportunity to ask detailed questions is
gone. If someone posed these questions to me _after_ the offer I'd simply
think why didn't they ask during the interview if it was important.
~~~
johnobrien102
Well perhaps you are right.
------
aherlambang
i completely agree with the fact that you should never take a job just solely
because of the money...sometimes its hard because if you share your pay with
other, they would say, but why?? only you yourself can feel good about it
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Show HN: Team collaboration on anything on the web – Skarpline - Storbaek
https://skarpline.com/ref/hacker-news/
======
Storbaek
Hi HN,
We built Skarpline after scraping a product we had built. We focused on
solving our own need and the challenges we saw in modern communication and
collaboration.
One of our early users made a pretty good description what makes Skarpline
unique right here [http://bit.ly/1YXzy8L](http://bit.ly/1YXzy8L) (former Slack
user).
And, we’re doing a small announcement with “PRESS RELEASE: We are now a
Unicorn Startup”. [http://bit.ly/1MOgxw8](http://bit.ly/1MOgxw8)
We got featured on Product Hunt a few days ago:
[https://www.producthunt.com/tech/skarpline](https://www.producthunt.com/tech/skarpline)
Take the web app for a spin. Happy to answer your questions.
Ask me anything!
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Is Amazon Unstoppable? - elsewhen
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/10/21/is-amazon-unstoppable
======
wahern
> Amazon pays all U.S.-based employees at least fifteen dollars an hour—more
> than the minimum wage in many places—and full-time warehouse workers have
> access to the same health and retirement plans as executives.
FWIW, all U.S. employers are required by law to provide the same health and
retirement benefits to full-time workers as they do executives.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: Who do you follow on Twitter? - goldbabelfish
I just got Twitter and thought this community would have a great selection of people who make great things or say great things.
======
DrScump
I don't.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Hiring Is Broken – My interview experience in the tech industry - sahat
https://medium.com/@evnowandforever/f-you-i-quit-hiring-is-broken-bb8f3a48d324#.yankhfx9h
======
sagichmal
Hiring isn't broken, dude. You just don't interview well, and you seem
antagonistic even to the idea that your cachet and skills, insofar as they
exist, aren't useful to the market. That's a problem -- for you.
Interviews exist because employers need a way to quantify and qualify your
ability. Typical computer science problems are a (flawed, but concrete) way of
doing that. No reasonable interviewer expects you to recollect breadth-first
search flawlessly, on demand, onto a whiteboard. But they do expect you to be
able to reason from a problem statement to something approximating a solution.
That's fundamentally what programmers _do_. You should have the chops to think
in this way, and you should be eager to try. Emoting "what the fuck?!" and
claiming you can't, or won't, because you're not a recent graduate is an
excuse and a cop-out.
A few popular open-source projects don't necessarily speak to your talent as a
programmer. A 960 day GitHub streak is trivia, not a signal of anything
useful. (If anything, it marks you as a target for burnout!) A few Hackathon
wins and a couple hundred GH stars are the artifacts of a successful hobbyist,
not a proxy for professional ability, or a gateway to employment.
~~~
emerongi
I don't think many software engineers deal with "computer science problems" in
their everyday jobs.
GitHub stars are worth much more IMO. It shows that other developers value
your work. That says a lot.
In the end, we have to realize that most developers are just average. Why go
through the ridiculous process of finding average developers who by luck (or
some homework) happen to solve the problems you throw at them perfectly?
~~~
unoti
> Why go through the ridiculous process of finding average developers who by
> luck (or some homework) happen to solve the problems you throw at them
> perfectly?
Never underestimate the value of hard work, preparation, and a can-do
attitude. It eclipses natural talent every time.
~~~
p4wnc6
The hardest workers with the most successful can-do attitudes will simply
reject your company if you ask them to do bullshit like algorithm trivia or
HackerRank tests.
Such trivia is the opposite of useful hard work; preparation for it truly
wastes time that could be better spent on other things; a can-do attitude
would imply rejecting or ignoring requests to do such things.
As a result, the people who actually do take the time to complete it will not
be completing it because of a good attitude or work ethic, yet you will
mistakenly believe they are.
~~~
serge2k
or they already learned it because they worked hard during school and they
work hard to keep themselves current.
I think the concerns people have about the efficacy of this interview style is
valid, but extending it to the point where you start to make claims about how
people who can pass them aren't as good is ridiculous.
~~~
p4wnc6
No, overfitting is a real thing. Overfitted learning algorithms are generally
worse at generalizing their ability to broader examples and new situations.
The types of candidates who spend the time necessary to memorize algorithm
trivia for the sake of passing these exams are exactly like overfitted
learning algorithms. What they happen to know is unlikely to generalize well.
Of course you could get lucky and hire someone like that who can generalize,
but that's rare. More often, since hiring is political, you pat yourself on
the back for how "good" the candidate is (based on some trivia) and make
excuses when their on-the-job performance isn't what you'd hoped, and find
ways to deflect attention from that so that you, as an inefficient hirer,
won't be called out on it.
Willingness to waste time overfitting yourself to algorithm trivia absolutely
predicts worse later-on performance than candidates with demonstrated
experience and pragmatism (e.g. I'm not wasting my time memorizing how to
solve tricky things that rarely matter. I will look them up / derive them /
figure them out when/if I need them).
If given the choice between hiring a math/programming olympiad winner vs. a
Macgyver/Edison-like tinkerer who may not be able to explain how to convert
between Thevenin and Norton circuit forms, but who took their family radio
apart and put it back together, Macgyver/Edison wins every time (unless you're
hiring for bullshit on-paper prestige, and of course many places are while
proclaiming loudly that they aren't).
~~~
consz
Totally disagree with the final sentence. Most math/programming olympiad
_winners_ are way more than capable of handling anything the Macgyver/Edison
type would be good at. At least in my industry, every olympiad winner has been
a consistently spectacular performer, and I have absolutely no qualms heavily
biasing myself towards that credential.
~~~
p4wnc6
Having worked with some such folks in a quant-focused field, I can say that
their performance was no better than average and in some cases worse. After a
few hires like this, my boss actually pulled me aside and asked me to take
over one of the main hiring projects because he and a few other managers were
unhappy with the way the emphasis on this type of paper credential had failed
to produce good enough analysts, and they wanted a process more focused on
probing someone's experience and ingenuity. I didn't enjoy it at the time, but
that 9-month project focused on that team's hiring needs (which took me away
from some of my technical projects for more time than I liked) ended up
teaching me a ton about what candidates in general look like (at least for
that type of firm).
But I grant this is reasoning just from the anecdata that I have. I can
believe that _winners_ perhaps represent a higher degree of skill, but then
we're talking about an extremely small number of people.
Generally you're facing a tradeoff where you have to choose between a sort of
rustic self-reliance skill set versus a bookworm skill set. People from either
group can learn the other over time, but you can't predict how well by testing
them solely on trivia that constitutes their current main group. My preference
is to hire for self-reliance and learn bookworm stuff later. I used to believe
the opposite (e.g. hire someone good at math because they can always learn to
be an effective programmer later) but my job experience made me believe the
opposite (e.g. actually it's pretty easy to teach people stochastic processes,
machine learning, or cryptography, but it's incredibly hard to teach people
how to be good at creative software design).
------
vdnkh
It took me a year to find a new job. I got rejected from on-sites 8 or 9
times, a few other rejections before that. I've been through everything the OP
has and more. I was once forgotten in an interview room while my interviewer
played foosball and then went home. I've managed to pass all rounds with
"positive feedback" only to get rejected three days later. I've swam through
rivers of aerated bullshit to find a new job and it sucked - but I never once
believed that I was a bad engineer. Hate the game all you want (and I really
do hate it), but you have no choice other than to play it or have an extremely
strong network.
I didn't even want to go to the interview which landed me my new job. In my
previous phone screen they were looking to hire a single person.The perfect
fit. Probably not me - what the hell do I know about video players? And it's
one of those interviews where they'll boot you to the curb if you do poorly in
the first half. Whatever, I'll go anyway. And as luck would have it, I didn't
get booted. I did damn well. And in my final phone screen with the CTO, I got
asked how to find the Nth last spot from the end of a linked list.
I really wasn't good at interviewing for a long time. And from the outset, I
didn't know everything I needed to get the job I wanted. It was consistent
studying and a buy-in to the bullshit that interviewing is that landed me a
new job.
~~~
ruaree
> In my previous phone screen they were looking to hire a single person.The
> perfect fit. Probably not me
What country was this in? In Ireland that qualifies as employment
discrimination on the "civil status" ground.
~~~
vdnkh
America. It's a bit hyperbolic, but is it really discrimination to want to
hire a person who meets all your requirements?
Oh, single person. Ha, it is illegal to discriminate on the basis of civil
status. They meant it as "one person".
~~~
ruaree
Apologies, I misread your original comment. I thought they wanted a person who
wasn't in a relationship.
~~~
jbdigriz
They would probably prefer that as well
------
markbnj
There's selectivity, and there's courtesy and respect. Companies are entitled
to be as selective as they like, and if those are the kinds of tests that
yield the people they want to hire then good for them. On the other hand
courtesy and respect would demand that you're clear with the candidate about
your expectations and requirements, that you don't waste their time, that you
respect the investment of time by communicating after the interview to let
them know how they did, and perhaps even that you let them know up front what
areas you expect to cover. Otherwise, as was noted in an earlier comment, it
really is just a lottery to see if you happen to be fresh on whatever thing
they happen to ask you.
There is another side to this which leads me to ask why companies feel they
have to be so defensive? My wife is a registered nurse on a cardiac critical
care ward. If she doesn't know what she's doing actual people can actually
die, something that is a rare outcome for even the worst software developer.
Nevertheless, she has a BS, and work experience, and when she interviews they
don't require her to stand up at a whiteboard and prove she's a nurse all over
again. They respect her experience, and the questions are more about process,
work habits, personality, etc. In the software development world we appear to
have zero respect for experience, and I wonder why that is? Have employers
been burned so often? Or is this more of a geek cred gauntlet thing?
~~~
csixty4
Is your wife re-certified every year or two? Does she have to have a certain
number of continuing education hours every year?
I don't doubt for a minute that there's some kind of alpha geek thing going on
with a lot of interviews. But it's also a reflection of the fact we don't have
a widely-accepted accreditation body that can vouch for people.
~~~
vonmoltke
> Is your wife re-certified every year or two? Does she have to have a certain
> number of continuing education hours every year?
Every time credentials come up with respect to this industry there are a whole
bunch of people who complain that credentials are meaningless because people
can just cheat or coast their way through. They go so far as to include CS
degrees themselves in that category. What makes you think the education and
credentials for nurses are so much better than for software engineers that
nurses can be hired based on credentials and software engineers cannot?
~~~
markbnj
Two possible answers come to mind: the first is that in order to be licensed
nurses, like doctors and lawyers, have to pass an intensive test known as
"boards." The second is that licensing, certification, and recertification are
functions of state government, not voluntary industry guidelines.
~~~
vonmoltke
> the first is that in order to be licensed nurses, like doctors and lawyers,
> have to pass an intensive test known as "boards."
Board certification is not a legal requirement in any jurisdiction I am aware
of. The licensure tests and board certifications are separate, and the former
is generally taken very close to when the doctor, lawyer, or nurse graduates
from their program and completes their internship period.
> The second is that licensing, certification, and recertification are
> functions of state government, not voluntary industry guidelines.
Yes and no. State governments decide what they will recognize, but industry
provides the training. Some of the shit that counts as "continuing education"
for the medical profession is little better than what you get at DeVry for
programmers.
That said, at least these professions have strong professional associations
that birddog state licensing boards to keep the bullshit out. My original
comment, in fact, was motivated by IEEE and ACM's attempts to do the same for
software engineers and the way the industry seems to be laughing at their
efforts.
------
tptacek
I'm torn.
On the one hand: the interview processes this post describes are hilariously
broken. Stand up at a whiteboard and implement breadth-first search from
memory! You know, like no programmer at their desk staring at their editor
ever does. I think "that's the one where you use a queue, right?" is a fully
valid and _complete_ answer to that dumb question.
I also think you're within your rights to demand that your interviewer
implement Kruskal's minimum cost spanning tree from memory at the same
whiteboard _before_ you have to do BFS. That's an extremely simple and
important graph theory algorithm that nobody memorizes either.
These interviews are nerd status rituals. Really good candidates know this and
game them. If you know anyone like this, ask them for stories. I've heard some
great ones. But obviously, this isn't a good way to select software
developers.
_On the other hand..._
The idea that "front-end developers" shouldn't need to be able to implement a
BFS (at all) bothers me a lot. If you're a software developer, you should grok
basic conceptual computer science. You should be able to work with a graph. If
you're doing web work, you're working with graphs all day whether you grok
that or not!
I've been doing front-end work for the past month, and I've had to do more
low-level profiling and performance work here than in the previous 4 years of
low-level systems work.
~~~
Morgawr
To be honest I was a bit taken aback by the author not being able to implement
a BFS. It's a fairly standard and really simple algorithm and it's probably
one of the most common ones to actually implement because of a need in your
day-to-day work.
What do you do if you have a nested data structure (like a tree) and want to
print it in order? You write a simple BFS on it.
It's not even a question where you _need_ prior knowledge on the algorithm,
it's just logical. He could've easily asked "Print the contents of this tree
to screen" and it would've been the same.
I can see how some questions like implementing quick or merge sort can be
annoying, most libraries have a sort() function that usually implement either
(or similar), you don't often have to write them yourself, but a BFS does not
fall into that category in my opinion.
~~~
tptacek
Hold on. I'm not taken aback by their inability to do BFS _in an interview at
a whiteboard from memory_. That, I think, is a total bullshit question, which
is why I think the right play there is to one-up them.
What I have a problem with is the assertion that a front-end dev shouldn't
have to grok BFS. Not "be able to implement from memory", but "be able to
quickly implement on demand given a few minutes research".
------
49531
Technical interviews became 10x easier when I realized that most companies
aren't necessarily looking for the right answer as much as they are trying to
look into your mind.
As a self taught programmer things like binary search trees and linked lists
are a foreign concepts (especially as a self taught frontend developer). When
I am asked to solve a problem in a way I've never encountered before, people
are pretty open to explaining how the problem works.
I don't get frustrated if a problem seems arbitrary or obscure because that's
typically not the point. The point is, if you're going to join my team, how do
you approach a difficult problem; do you get upset? do you clam up? I don't
want someone like that on my team. I'd say most people would prefer a teammate
who is resourceful rather than one who only wants to solve problems they're
comfortable solving.
~~~
ckozlowski
>Technical interviews became 10x easier when I realized that most companies
aren't necessarily looking for the right answer as much as they are trying to
look into your mind.
This is a great, great point.
I'd like to add one more: Admitting when you don't know the answer. I've been
in a number of recent phonescreens where we'd ask a technical question of a
simple "good/bad" sort. My advise to those reading: If you don't know, just
say so. "I'm really not sure." or "I knew at one point, but I'd have to go
look it up again." Perfectly acceptable. No one's a walking encyclopedia, and
to say you don't know show's humility. I'm much more comfortable with someone
who says they don't know and will go look for the correct answer than someone
who might stand in front of the customer and try to poker face.
To those reading this and taking notes for an interview, I'd say instances
like these are a good opportunity to discuss. If you don't know, ask what the
correct answer was. Ask why. See if you can build off the answer, sometimes
you might get asked a question you couldn't recall the answer for, but once
given, you can expand upon and demonstrate your knowledge in other ways.
~~~
snappy173
> I'd like to add one more: Admitting when you don't know the answer
I'll +1 this, but with a slight caveat. Some interviewers don't get it, and
will ding you for this. Those are the companies to avoid.
~~~
prakashk
Since those are companies to avoid anyway, you are not losing if you are
rejected because of an honest "I don't know" answer.
------
bryanlarsen
The OP is describing the new grad tech hiring process. It looks like an exam
because it's for hiring people straight out of school.
For experienced people, it's not what you know, it's who you know. You tell
your connected friend that you're looking for a job, he tells you who's hiring
and gives you a recommendation.
You still have an interview, but it's no longer adversarial, it's a formality,
it's friendly, it's just a screen to make sure you're not faking it. One of
the people on the other side of the table has seen your work before, so is on
your side. So when you get those stupid questions, it's a joke that you all
laugh at. You handwave at it, and it's enough.
There are obviously problems with the above process -- it leads to hiring
friends rather than the "best" candidate, but I'm surprised that we've moved
so far away from it that the obviously well-connected OP is having so much
trouble.
~~~
Apocryphon
This calls the entire meme of "Silicon Valley is a meritocracy" into question.
This just further validates those who criticize tech for being a monoculture
with lack of diversity.
~~~
jaredcwhite
Anyone who actually believes "Silicon Valley is a meritocracy" is exactly the
reason why Silicon Valley is, in fact, not a meritocracy. :)
------
halis
I interviewed with Netflix for a front-end JavaScript position a few years
ago. I had two technical phone screens. One with the engineering manager and
another with a senior engineer on their team.
Those went smoothly so I was asked to fly out to Los Gatos, CA.
On-site I was supposed to talk first with the senior engineer I had already
interviewed with over the phone. He was out sick so they changed at the last
minute.
In walks a guy in a fedora with full tattoo sleeves. He glances at my resume
and laughs saying he hasn't looked at it at all and really knows nothing about
me.
He proceeds to ask me detailed questions about Node.js. I told him that I was
very clear with them on the phone, that I've played around with Node, but I
hadn't used it to any serious degree (at that point in my career).
He continued with the Node.js questions for a while, some of which I knew
because they were the same as the browser (console) some of which I wasn't
familiar with at the time (EventEmitter).
He then asked me some simple JavaScript, Backbone, CSS questions all of which
were easy. He then asked me a C# question and I knew that too.
We shook hands and after he left, the engineering manager came back in and I
was basically escorted out. He said I was good but that I wasn't what they
were looking for.
I've had some retarded interview experiences but that one took the cake.
~~~
Grishnakh
I wonder if he didn't like you because you didn't look like a hipster....
I'm totally serious: I really wonder how many of these baffling interview
experiences where seemingly highly-qualified candidates get turned down is
really about non-technical and non-work-related factors, but no one wants to
actually admit it. How much of it is due to personal biases by the
interviewers, who may discriminate against people for various reasons? A lot
of people want to surround themselves with people just like themselves, so if
you have a company full of hipsters wearing fedoras and someone comes in for
an interview and they don't look like that, they could easily be passed over
because they're "not a fit for our company culture".
I don't think I'm half as competent as the guy who wrote this article, but
I've had a much easier time getting jobs in general. My background isn't even
CS, it's EE, so I totally suck at all the algorithm questions. But OTOH I
generally apply for embedded programming positions where knowledge of
algorithms isn't that important anyway. I even interviewed at Google (one of
their recruiters contacted me) and had pretty much the same experience as him;
I won't waste my time with that company again. A bunch of recruiters have
tried to get me to interview at Bloomberg LP, but I would never work in that
crappy open-plan environment that they're infamous for. But I frequently
wonder how much of my success is just from being tall and in-shape, not having
any obvious personality quirks, and "fitting in" with the look and the company
culture (I interview with more stodgy places, not places with hipsters with
arm-sleeve tattoos), rather than due to my technical proficiency.
~~~
jjn2009
Netflix has a very strong focus on culture so you are likely correct, although
it doesn't sound like he got to the part where they actually quiz you on their
Netflix culture slide deck they likely did not continue for this reason.
There is some merit to trying to maintain culture if they have some formula
for what works there and they want to maintain it but an engineer could pretty
easily think something along the lines of "he's not hipster enough" and then
make a case that they don't fit the culture but really not care about
netflix's corporate ideas about culture.
------
paddy_m
I hired Sahat as an intern three years ago while he was an undergrad. It was
one of the best hiring decisions I have ever made. He was productive
immediately and our (small) team felt the loss when he went back to school.
This guy is good and gets stuff done, ask people who have worked with him.
I wish Sahat had reached out to more of his network before responding to
random recruiters. Tech interviews as Sahat experienced them are broken, but
tech hiring is slightly less broken especially when you leverage your network.
~~~
falcolas
> I wish Sahat had reached out to more of his network before responding to
> random recruiters.
Has his network moved forward in what they do? I've found with my own network
that so many of them are in the same (or equivalent) spots they were when I
left to advance my career. Not precisely positions of power which I can take
advantage of for the next step forward in my career.
~~~
Aissen
You do not need to be in position of power to refer someone.
~~~
falcolas
The usefulness of contacts only really matters when they are managing (or are
a key-decider in) the team you wish to apply for.
Otherwise, a reference will only add to the burden you have to overcome with
the interviewers - they will consider not only your qualities, but the
referrer's qualities as well. "Richard vouched for Jane? But Richard is
writing testing software, and we're hiring for backend. We don't need a SDET
or we would have hired Richard."
~~~
EdHominem
I've referred people senior to me and been told by the recruiter that it was
significant.
Because I can't be expected to know their work as well as they do I describe
their peers' opinions (well-respected in the NOC) and the soft-skills they
have like mentoring, etc.
"Even though I was only an SDET, Dave took the time to help me fully
understand the math involved in the problem domain and how to efficiently
model it. This allowed for a 60% increase in my deliverables and put the
entire team a week ahead of schedule."
------
unoti
Google and similar companies aren't for everyone. They're looking for people
on top of their game and willing to go the extra mile.
> To be fair, I already knew about Google’s idiotic interview process that is
> optimized for hiring book-smart academic candidates who know their
> algorithms and data structures cold, so my expectations were rather low to
> begin with. I also did not get much sleep that day, so my problem solving
> skills weren’t at its peak.
The author is already annoyed, antagonistic, and planning for failure. He knew
what he was up against, but didn't adequately prepare to succeed by studying.
And didn't sleep the night before.
And none of the reasons for not succeeding are the author's fault, in his
mind.
You can claim that the screening process is dumb, and in some ways you're
right. But at the same time, this process does select to some extent at least
against the people who make excuses instead of bringing their A-game when it
counts.
If you want a job at a place like this, you can do it: commit yourself to a
plan of action for success that involves real work and preparation. Wanting to
change the industry practice of the top tier firms is interesting and all. But
if you want to get in, work and preparation will reap more rewards than
complaining.
~~~
falcolas
With all due respect, being able to recite algorithms from memory is no actual
indication of being at the top of your game. All it really indicates is that
you are capable of memorizing algorithms.
~~~
unoti
It's well publicized what to expect at interviews for these firms. It shows
that you're willing to put in the preparation to make it work. In addition to
putting in the work of memorizing the algorithms, a candidate needs to know
how to apply them, and to write code, and to accept feedback, and to
collaborate and communicate.
If a candidate isn't willing to put in the work to prepare, it's not much of a
cognitive leap for me to envision them telling me that implementing this or
that feature is dumb, impractical and not needed. Many developers have this
"start with no" defeatist attitude as their default position on most problems
of moderate complexity, and it's a real problem. Given a chance to select for
candidates that instead figure out a way to make it happen I'd rather take the
winners.
~~~
tobz
Do you not find it strange, or at least confusing, that you're arguing a point
here that is predicated on studying for an interview, rather than the _actual_
position?
"This person didn't study for the interview, so what did they expect to
happen?" Oh, I don't know, maybe to be asked questions directly related to the
position, amongst other things.
~~~
unoti
> Do you not find it strange, or at least confusing, that you're arguing a
> point here that is predicated on studying for an interview, rather than the
> actual position?
No, I don't find it strange that I want them to prepare for something they're
not going to use normally, but agree it might be confusing.
For the actual positions I'm hiring for, nobody in the world outside our teams
understands the systems. The candidates are going to need to work hard to
learn what's going on when they start their new job. Some of it is going to be
hard to do and not always a complete pleasure. Essentially I see it as a
personality test that selects for the kind of people that figure out how to
overcome technical adversity.
Willingness to do the work to be prepared and eagerness to dive into technical
arcana despite it being not very easy-- these things _are_ very relevant to
the positions I hire for at Microsoft.
~~~
tobz
> I want them to prepare for something they're not going to use normally
<mind blown GIF goes here..>
> Essentially I see it as a personality test that selects for the kind of
> people that figure in it how to overcome technical adversity.
This seems at odds with the original "ask", as it were: study up on some basic
CS algorithms, and now I know you can handle what we're going to throw at you
here. Ignoring the obvious "well, we need to make sure they can learn basic
things", how is this even a viable test if your environment is so advanced, so
high up, that you expect new candidates to encounter actual _adversity_?
------
maxsilver
What frustrates me about this is not even these questions, specifically, but
which companies seem to use them.
If Google wants to ask crazy algorithm questions, that's at least sort-of
reasonable. There's at least a hypothetical chance your work will involve that
knowledge.
But I've interviewed at companies who's entire tech stack is a simple CRUD web
app, or a simple RESTful mobile app, who's so-called "big data" is less than a
few gigabytes in total, and they _still_ want to throw algorithms and brain
teasers at me. These same companies then post some inane blog post about the
"developer shortage" and how "we can't find talented people".
If these companies could actually find the candidate they're testing for --
this hypothetical hyper-intelligent developer who had a IBM-Watson-like memory
of every CS algorithm and it's application in every language, that person
would get completely bored working there and quit in 3 months or so. _These
companies could never retain the type of person their own hiring process
exclusively selects for_
\---
Hiring doesn't need to get fixed, companies need to get honest about what they
are and what they actually want. To restate this in 1-10 scale : Many
companies delude themselves into believing they are a 9 or 10, and are trying
exclusively to hire 10's (and hypothetical 11's that don't exist).
When in reality, most companies are in the 4 to 6 range, they only need people
in the 4 to 6 range, but are rejecting 7 and 8s type candidates, because they
aren't a 10.
This process itself isn't broken, so much as the businesses holding the power
in the process are delusional about...everything (what they are, what they
need, who could provide that, etc).
~~~
brazzledazzle
I've learned that a lot of people need to lie to themselves sometimes to feel
confident. If everyone was honest with themselves about how utterly average
and relatively unimportant they are they'd probably be much less productive.
And in case someone feels I'm looking down my nose, I consider myself
positively average. A tiny part of me hopes/wishes that I'm not, but the rest
knows better.
~~~
mifreewil
Much of the advice around startups is actually centered around the idea of
"fooling yourself" or "faking it 'til you make it" or other strategies of
positive thinking. Working on a startup is a rollercoaster of emotions and
using these strategies can be helpful. Real wisdom may be found in knowing
when to fool (lie to) yourself and when not to.
------
tachion
After reading author's post I've a feeling that its not the programming skills
that the author has issues with, but instead the attitude, stress durability,
expectations to the world around him. True, hiring can be broken, it often is,
but as with everything, the persistence usually allows us to find the proper
company with proper hiring process. He's getting frustrated pretty quickly,
complains when is asked to perform math-heavy coding, complains when is asked
to do proper front end coding, so on and so forth - this type of people are
not very pleasant to work with and very often their feelings, unability to
adapt to difficult situations and attitude is very visible, putting off the
recruiters. That is, of course, my personal feeling after reading that piece
and I might be completely wrong.
~~~
collyw
Persistence is a pain in the arse if you have to spend 1.5 hours every
Hackerrank challenge (plus you are likely to want a warm up of at least half
an hour). Say you have to do ten of those. Why can't employers ask you to
bring in some previous work and discuss it? Surely that is a lot more relevant
than algorithmic stuff that you likely haven't used for years.
~~~
ionforce
> bring in some previous work
Surely your prior work is under some sort of NDA? It's all proprietary (unless
it is open source).
~~~
collyw
I have side projects that I am working on, quite happy to show those - its one
of the motivations for doing them so that I have code to show people.
------
dryajov
Honestly, I believe the industry is cannibalizing it self, and this sort of
practices is pushing out more and more creative and capable people. When I
have to make a choice of whether to practice my algorithms or work on my open
source project, is when things are going to start blowing up. This industry is
built by people with passion and dedication, some of the most powerful and
defining projects were built by individuals who sacrificed their spare time to
build something useful, now they will sacrifice that time to practice...
Algos? C'mon!!! I think our industry has passed the initial honey moon period,
when crazy and beautiful solutions crystalized in garages and basements all
across the county and the world, and we're headed for a bumpy landing were big
corps control open source and the crazies that made them possible are pushed
out. This is not sustainable on the long run, and pretty soon were going to be
regulated to oblivion. Bye bye innovation.
~~~
bogomipz
Good points. I know how I want to spend my time - working on something
creative not "training up" for a potential interview. Companies only started
doing the "throw the CLRS book at them" style interviews when they found out
that was Google was doing. I'm sure Google has their own reasons for that.
However why would a smallish start up want to emulate what works for a company
that has 65K employees? This whole training up for Google/FB/MS/AWS style
interviews has actually given rise to a cottage industry that has sprouted up
around helping you train - "Cracking the Coding interview"/Hacker Rank etc. I
would rather hire someone that:
A) Has good experience
B) Has the ability to reason about problem domains even if they can't scribble
out a perfect implementation with all edge cases considered on a white board
in under 30 minutes.
C) Has good interpersonal skills.
------
grosbisou
Ah I interviewed with some of these companies a few months ago and had the
same experience. Unlike you though I didn’t find this frustating but rather
hilarious.
For example, Lifion interviewers who wanted me to write fibonacci couldn’t
tell me what the sequence definition was, they ‘taught’ me that C++ classes
default visibility was protected or that REST was a protocol, they didn’t like
when I said they should use a relational database if mongodb lack of multi
documents atomicity was such a problem. That was so mind blowing that I
started writing down on my phone all the stuff they said.
I might write an article about all that too actually.
~~~
maxxxxx
I had the same experience a while ago for a contracting gig. The interviewer
threw all kinds of jargon at me and when I asked for clarification he couldn't
provide any. And some of the stuff he talked about was incomplete or basically
wrong.
------
Xcelerate
When I was an undergrad, my team won the Facebook Hackathon at our university
in 2011, so they gave each of us job interviews. None of us got an offer, but
the irony is that one of my other team members went on to work at Instagram,
which was then acquired by Facebook less than a year later. I'm pretty sure
that was about the most expensive way FB could have hired him.
During my interview, the interviewer asked me where I was getting my CS degree
from, and I replied that I wasn't getting a CS degree — my major was chemical
engineering. He was silent for a few seconds, so I'm pretty sure that wasn't
the answer he was expecting.
What I remember about the interview process is that I was asked to implement
some kind of odd search/sort algorithm. I remember thinking "why would I have
this memorized off the top of my head when I could easily Google the best
algorithm suited for the task?"
In high school, I don't think there was ever a chemistry or math exam that I
didn't get a perfect score on, but I would also take much longer to finish
than the other students. I frequently ran over the allotted class time and
worked well into the lunch period (luckily, I had nice teachers who allowed me
to do this). In college, I remember perplexing the physics professor, because
I got 70s-80s on the quizzes throughout the semester, then I got a 113 on the
final exam. I told him the only difference was that I was given 20 minutes for
the quizzes, whereas I had 3 hours to complete the final exam. The extra time
made all the difference.
So I wonder if a lot of companies are missing out when they look for 1) people
who have a lot of simplistic CS algorithms memorized and 2) people who can
work quickly on the spot. I may not be able to write a FizzBubbleRedBlackSort
algorithm on a whiteboard in ten minutes, but give me a week and I'll have you
a parallelized implementation of quantum monte carlo that runs on a hundred
thousand cores.
~~~
madelinecameron
I think anyone with a CS education can design something like that given enough
time.
It isn't a question of whether you can do it, it is whether you can find a
'good enough' solution in an optimal amount of time. It is testing your
creativity and problem-solving abilities.
~~~
dclowd9901
An "optimal" amount of time? So we expect "good enough" solutions to be
materialized in a matter of an hour?
If my PM ever walked up to me and said, "Hey, I have this project, and I need
you to have it back to me in an hour," I would laugh, then escort them over to
their boss, who would also laugh at them before they walked back to their desk
in shame.
It's not testing anything but whether or not you're good at studying for
exams.
------
mikelevins
Yeah, it's broken.
Google studied their own interview process, according to Lazlo Bock, examining
tens of thousands of hiring decisions. The study concluded that their process
was no better than random chance at finding good candidates. They continue
with that process nevertheless.
I have a rich network of Silicon Valley connections, built over 29 years of
working for Valley companies. What I hear time and again is that many highly-
qualified and productive people have a terrible time finding work.
Simultaneously, Silicon Valley companies testify before congress and complain
to the press that there is a serious shortage of technical hires.
If companies can't find enough good candidates, and good candidates can't find
enough offers, and one of the most prosperous companies in technology, with
the most famously rigorous hiring process in the industry says that their own
process is bullshit, then yeah, I'd say that hiring is broken.
Of course, if you happen to be prospering, then it doesn't look broken to you.
You're prospering, after all.
And of course, if some joker comes along and says that the process that hired
you is broken and gives results no better than random chance, of course you
aren't likely to agree. After all, if it was luck that gave you your
prosperity, then luck could just as easily take it away again.
The story we like to tell is that the technical interview screens out bad
candidates. It's just a story, though. Google's research says it doesn't.
Is that such a big surprise, though? How many times in my three decades in
software has a product launch depended on someone being able to solve a brain
teaser in front of a critical stranger? Zero. How many times has a company's
success depended on someone writing the right code on a whiteboard? Zero. How
many times has the bottom line depended on someone coming up with the right
algorithm or data structure off the top of their head in a conversation? Zero.
Technical interviews, if they measure anything at all, measure things that
don't have much to do with technical jobs. So it shouldn't be a big surprise
that they don't do better than chance at predicting someone's performance.
If technical interviews don't work, why do we still use them? Why does Google
still use a hiring process that its own research says is bullshit?
Maybe it's because we don't have anything better.
I think it's because on some level we realize that we don't actually know how
to distinguish good candidates from bad ones, but we don't want to admit it to
ourselves. We want to think that we can pick the right candidate, because it
can be so costly if we don't.
So we ritualize the process. We rely on a bullshit hazing ritual. We wave a
dead chicken over it and tell ourselves that we are screening out bad
candidates and hiring only the best.
Only we're not. If we were, then maybe companies would still have a hard time
finding enough candidates, or maybe good candidates would still have a hard
time finding jobs, but not both at the same time. And the company with the
most 'rigorous' hiring process in the industry wouldn't be concluding that
their own process is nonsense.
Yeah. It's broken.
~~~
codeOfRobin
As John Siracusa once said, Success hides problems.
------
traviswingo
I interviewed at 17 companies before finding one that fit me. It's more of a
persistence game than anything, and I began to realize that a lot of companies
were just testing the waters, only willing to hire someone if they really blew
them away (obviously this is hard to do under interview circumstances).
Once I found a company that actually _needed_ me, the experience became a
positive one - they went out of my way to make me feel comfortable.
I wish there were a way for candidates to pre-screen companies, rather than
the other way around. It's a waste of time on both parties if the company
isn't actually in need of a new hire, but just dabbling in the option pool.
~~~
pyb
Agreed ! So many companies are advertising positions, but are not that
committed to hiring. They just enjoy having people coming to their office to
get grilled. I guess it must be very rewarding for the interviewer.
------
bpchaps
One possible reason is that the brony thing on his github might be a legit
turnoff for employers. It's silly, but it's possible. The two people I talk to
more than anyone else in this world are bronies (to the extent of going to
conventions and whatnot) and have similar issues. Hell, I still don't
understand it and find myself irrationally judging them for it, and that's
even after daily exposure to it.
~~~
hvoiiita
I agree. I cringed when I checked out his Github profile because its one of
those things that immediately throw up a red flag.
To each their own on their personal time, but you can't seriously expect that
being associated with a stigmatized hobby is going to gain you anything.
~~~
brazzledazzle
While it's hardly fair I have to agree. I'm acquainted with a few and they are
generally cool people but part of the brony identity does seem to be tied
directly to the stigma against them. I wonder if feeling like they have to
hide it makes them more resistant to hiding it?
It's such a silly thing, but humans are animals and we have annoying or shitty
things like pack/tribe mentalities.
~~~
bpchaps
From knowing these guys for so long, they try their absolute best not to hide
it and go pretty far to show it off in a way that's not really in your face.
Gotta hand it to them for sticking up for their interests considering how much
negativity the crowd receives. That said, the friends I mentioned really,
really dislike most other bronies for being consistently over the top.
------
spitfire
Tokenadult isn't around to chime in here, so I'll take his place today. Hunter
and Schmit did a meta-study of 70 years of research on hiring criteria. [1]
There are three attributes you need to select for to identify performing
employees in intellectual fields.
- General mental ability (Are they generally smart)
- Work sample test. NOT HAZING! As close as possible to the actual work they'd be doing.
- Integrity (The first two won't matter if the candidate is a sociopath).
This alone will get you > 65% hit rate. [1]
[http://mavweb.mnsu.edu/howard/Schmidt%20and%20Hunter%201998%...](http://mavweb.mnsu.edu/howard/Schmidt%20and%20Hunter%201998%20Validity%20and%20Utility%20Psychological%20Bulletin.pdf)
Hell one of these companies should hire me to do data driven recruiting.
------
stegosaurus
Is it even just hiring?
Every employer I've worked for has made the experience farcical. If not at the
start, then over time. You interview for one job, and eventually end up doing
something else.
A full time career that doesn't pay enough to buy a home. And they say
software developers are overpaid.
I think the end-game for me is to just go camping with a laptop or something.
I'll code for fun, rather than trying to meet this 'market demand' which
provides people with studio apartments, temporarily, in exchange for ~all of
their productive hours.
~~~
wott
> You interview for one job, and eventually end up doing something else.
LOL yeah, that's what happened to me for my last job. A recruiting process
that lasted 4 bloody months for an electronic designer position, and when I
was finally hired they put me on software testing; not only I had never done
this, but I had never heard it was a thing. Anyway, after less than 2 months I
was better as this than the CS graduates who had been doing it for several
years and they were asking me for help in their work.
But now I have been unemployed for 2.5 years, I made it to the interview stage
_only once_ during that time, and _I have given up on even just applying_ to
any job offer for the last 5 months because it is absolutely pointless and
humiliating to be repeatedly discarded by people who are clueless, who don't
give a flying fuck about the persons they "harvest" and lack the basic respect
in social interactions (like spending 2 minutes of their precious time
answering a question, not blatantly lying, doing what they said they'd do, or
even just showing up at the very appointment themselves fixed!).
So yes, in a way, I've quitted and I am getting ready to become a street
beggar when all savings are gone. In the blogger case, his situation is too
fresh, I don't think his mood of the day will last long for this time (and
after all, he got plenty of interviews, at least), but I am really really
tired of these completely nonsensical recruiting processes and their
humiliating consequences.
~~~
splicer
Would you be interested in another software (or firmware) testing role? Where
are you located?
------
daurnimator
The purposes of these interviews is not (usually) to see if you know the
answer. It's to see how you problem solve.
If you knew the correct answer to e.g. the BFS algorithm, you'll get thrown
another question that they hope you _don 't_ know.
When interviewing, the thing I want to see most is how someone works through a
problem: can they solve from first principles? do they go via trial and error?
do they ask for a computer to google things up/a book?
Picking raw CS problems is an easy option, as its something that you _should_
be able to solve, and it means I don't have to require you to know
Angular/React/Flavour of the month (new tools are easy to teach the right
candidate).
You're _not_ going to immediately know the answer to everything that comes up
in your job; so evaluating how you solve the unfamiliar is very important.
~~~
pjlegato
That sounds nicer than what 95% of programming interviewers actually do, which
is something rather different.
Almost all are simply playing "programming trivia." They name an algorithm or
a data structure, and then evaluate whether you can recite it from memory.
That's it. There is no problem-solving element involved. It is purely a test
of whether you can memorize and recite.
This requires a lot less effort on the part of the interviewer than the style
you describe, and also bolsters their ego and makes them feel clever when they
find a candidate who can't recite properly.
~~~
infinite8s
If that's the case, is that really a company you'd want to work at?
~~~
radnor
When it's the case with nearly every company around you, and you really need a
job right now, what choice do you have?
------
m4tthumphrey
Fancy moving to the UK? :)
Seriously there's a job with your name on it if you're interested.
When I interview candidates I sit with them for half an hour or so to get to
know them. Then I give them purposely broken, poorly written piece of code
which I tell them to pull apart. This proves incredibly effective as even if
they miss some of the more obvious errors I can at least point them in that
area and then see if they can see the problem on their own. There are about
100 different things to talk about so it really gives me an idea of the level
they are at, and also the type of programmer they are; passionate, lazy,
smart, meticulous, inexperienced, confident etc. Then if I feel they are worth
a second interview, I get them back to sit with me and my team for the day to
see how they fit in with the team. Then all being well I offer the job.
~~~
koyote
That sounds pretty much like an ideal interview process.
But do you think this is easier to do if you get less candidates (looking at
your location, I am assuming you only get a small fraction of candidates than
if you were located in, say, London) ?
~~~
shawn-furyan
> But do you think this is easier to do if you get less candidates
This is one of my pet peeves. The number of applications you get has
absolutely nothing to do with the number of candidates you should consider,
because it has absolutely nothing to do with the number of candidates that you
can competently consider. You don't have to get through every resume, and
trying to do so will just lead to biased "how can I say no" ad hoc filtering
games.
The solution is to use an unbiased* pre-filter to restrict the number of
applicants that you let into a thorough consideration process. Random
selection is the pre filter that I would use, but there may be other valid
choices (though outside of random selection, it's easy to let bias slip in).
Bonus points if you are transparent with candidates that get filtered out this
way about why and how that happened. If you're messaging is constructed well,
then they should understand that there were too many candidates to give all of
them fair consideration, and that being filtered out reflects in no way on
their worth as a candidate. So, they will be more likely to apply for future
openings.
Sorry if it feels like I'm criticizing you. I don't mean to at all. It's just
that this idea of being overwhelmed by candidates is absolutely pervasive in
discussions of hiring, and it's a completely fake problem that leads to
absolutely real difficulty on both sides of the hiring process.
* A lot of organizations resort to biased pre-filters to cull resumes, like unnecessary requirements. I'm of the opinion that this leads to suboptimal results, particularly if they align significantly with the biased filters that the rest of the industry your company is competing in uses. It means that there are qualified candidates that end up systematically under-recruited. Those are the Moneyball candidates. You should want those candidates because they are the most productive relative to the salaries they can demand. And even if you don't give them a lower salary than you would give a candidate that passes all the typical filters, then you will still have a significant retention advantage, which all told may be worth more than shaving salary in many (most?) situations.
------
ts330
Considering that it's our fellow programmers doing the interviewing, I'd say
we're failing ourselves here. I'd wager that in almost all cases, those doing
interviews have had zero training on effectively recruiting anyone (let alone
other developers). An effective interview requires preparation - and I bet the
majority of developers do this right between saying " _fuck_ , have they
arrived already?" and starting the interview. Is it any wonder it falls back
to the standard approach of "Google does it, it must be good" or a dick
swinging contest trying to prove how amazing your team is, because "fuck yeah,
we all write search algos every fucking day - it's why our product is
amazing."
~~~
YeGoblynQueenne
I guess the take-home lesson here is that programmers have no idea what makes
a good programmer and how to screen for one. So they fall back to the basics,
CS 101.
~~~
ionforce
> programmers have no idea what makes a good programmer
I disagree. I think we do know what we want, but there is no cheap/easy litmus
test for this. If time, money, and opportunity were free, the way to find out
if someone is a good programmer is to work with them for a long time.
Okay, now find a cheap way to do that while both sides of the interview have
to juggle full time jobs and other interviews.
------
wildermuthn
Front-end lead here, building large desktop apps for my company's internal
use.
I've never had a web-app that failed due to performance. I can't recall any
that ever have, except Facebooks' attempt to use HTML on mobile.
UI performance has little to do with algorithms, and only occasionally
requires opening the profiler to hit 60fps with some tweaks to bone-headed
nested loops. Or maybe reconsider your use of Angular!
Front-end apps fail because long-lived mutable state is a powerful engine of
complexity, and algorithms do not solve complexity. I am constantly telling my
team (CS back-enders prepare yourself!) to _ignore_ performance concerns.
O-whatever has zero-impact on delivering simple, extensible, bug-free web apps
that please its users.
But admittedly, crafting good software isn't as objectively clear as
implementing a mathematical function that makes your server code perform. The
proliferation of front-end frameworks and compile-to-js languages indicates
that writing FE software that _works_ remains a far greater challenge than
writing FE software that hums.
To that point, maintaining a popular github repo for a library or app that
demonstrates your ability to write, maintain, and extend FE software is still
the best sign that you know what you're doing, and that you _like_ what you're
doing. Conversely, knowing a lot of algorithms as a FE candidate tells me
nothing about whether your first PR will be your last.
On a happy note, Netflix didn't ask me a single question regarding algorithms!
Their interview's focus on OOP made sense, even if it didn't fit with my own
focus on ClojureScript and FP.
------
leothekim
I think it's important when interviewing candidates that he/she can
demonstrate fundamental CS knowledge. In any software project, you may be
working out very complicated features, and CS knowledge is often the common
language for conveying complex and subtle ideas.
That said, it's perverse that there's a cottage industry around software
engineering interview training on both sides of the table for the crazy
questions that are being asked. No one wants this, but sadly, once you're in
the door at these places that do these sorts of interviews, the motivation to
affect change approaches zero.
There are some companies that have tried to make this a fairer assessment
though, e.g. Foursquare
[http://engineering.foursquare.com/2016/04/04/improving-
our-e...](http://engineering.foursquare.com/2016/04/04/improving-our-e...).
Putting this sort of effort into an interview process is time-consuming, but
if the software industry is going to make its interview practices assess
candidates more fairly, it's going to take effort.
~~~
geebee
Yes! I really agree. How this will happen I don't know, but it badly needs to
happen.
I don't object to an employer wanting to see a background in data structures
and algorithms, sql, binary, and a few branches of math. This is why I agree
that hiring is broken but also understand that it isn't easy to fix.
Some of it stems from something very wonderful about our profession - we are
flexible about how people can acquire this background. In law, you must do a 3
year JD[1], and you must typically pay way over 100k for it. Alternate paths
toward learning this material are pretty much illegal (as in, we'll put you in
jail if you try to practice law if you haven't done the 3-year degree,
regardless of your master of the material).
For instance, I was a math major, and I only took a bit of formal CS. However,
when I did self-study to try to plug some of these gaps (partially for
interviews, partially for my own education), I was surprised with how much I
actually had covered from a different angle. Many of my math (and later, in
grad school, Industrial Engineering) professors ran "labs", some for a bit of
extra credit, others as an optional set of assignments. I took graph theory
through a math department and stuck around in the lab and so forth to
implement some of the algorithms, to learn about how some types of proofs
actually contain an algorithm. BFS, DFS, minimum spanning set. That all
involved building trees, lists, using pointers. In numerical analysis, I did a
lot of matrix algebra manipulations. And so on. If CS were run like law, it
would be illegal for someone like me to work as a programmer, because my
degree isn't an ABET accredited CS degree.
The downside to all of this, though, is that there is no recognized
credential. I don't object to being taken through my paces, I object to how
random, capricious, and redundant the process has become. I read a blog
article about a programmer who took the bar and studied for 100 hours and
passed. Think on that for a second and compare it to the amount of time people
spend preparing for and taking what are essentially white board exams in
technical interviews. The bar, an exam that is considered one of the most
brutal rites of passage for a learned profession? In some ways, we go through
that every time we do a new round of interviews when we change jobs!
Actuaries have to show understanding of relatively advanced math, but senior
actuaries don't (to my knowledge) get grilled on integration by parts or some
specialized set of partial differential equations when they interview. Why?
Because there is _a proper exam_ for their field (and unlike law, actuaries
are free to obtain this background through multiple educational paths, they
often major in math, but hardly always).
Another problem is the capriciousness of the tech exam/interviews. I believe
that a "bill of rights" so to speak slowly evolved between examinee and
governing board over time in true professions. The nursing and medical boards,
the actuarial exams, the bar - these fields have a tough exam (or series of
exams), but they are consistent, there is a clear study path, there is a
commitment to grade them fairly, there is a clear study path, if you fail, you
get feedback or at least a score (the bar doesn't write you back and say they
"decided not to pursue your candidacy further at this time"), there is often a
second (or additional) change at the exam, and, most importantly, when you
pass you get _a lasting, public credential respected by your peers in the
field_.
People often describe these exams as the most brutal, anxiety ridden,
stressful events of their professional lives. This is why, I believe, they
slowly evolved that "bill or rights" that protects the examinee.
Unfortunately, in tech, I believe we experience these exams over and over, but
without any of those benefits.
I am a-ok with requiring people to show competence, but the way we go about it
is, I think, badly broken. I believe that this process accounts for a great
deal of attrition in the field, as well as people deciding not to enter the
field in the first place.
[1] yes, a bit of handwaving, it's not _quite_ that simple in some states.
------
riyadparvez
The problem with interviews I am having (I am about to graduate and have not
got a job yet) is that the whole hiring process is too one-dimensional. Some
companies only care about algorithmic coding competition skills that you can
only achieve via competing in some sites like TopCoder, CodeChef and some
other companies only care about how many years of experiences you have - does
not matter what you have learned from experiences, it is just how many years
that count.
Coding contest skills are very unfair to senior developers because they are
out of school long time and do not have the time or motivation to engage in
coding competition. And this also creates different incentive models. I have
seen people who flunked very elementary CS courses (OS, networking etc.) to
spend more time coding competition to get hired in big companies. This is
really weird because they have to learn these things to become a real
developer and they are gonna learn these things in company's time which they
should know already. That being said, I personally think, problems like maze
solving and inverting binary tree are fair questions. These are not exotic DP
problems, these are just simple problems.
OTOH, the whole years of experience thing is unfair for new developers who do
not have the experience but smart enough to learn and outperform many
developers with experience who just memorized APIs over years of experience.
There must be a healthy compromise between these two types of hiring.
~~~
ddebernardy
FYI there actually are very few "new developers who do not have the experience
but smart enough to learn and outperform many developers with experience".
Developers like to think they're on top of their game straight out of school
and are able to design and develop 100k LOC apps off the bat. They could use a
healthy dose of humility, because those that can are few and far in between.
The sorrier reality is that most of them spend their first couple of years
learning how to work in a team, and then next 5-15 years picking up good
habits and design patterns, and subsequently learning to not systematically
use them once they know better. (I can't say first hand what comes after, but
I would imagine yet more of the same.)
------
taneq
The examples that always come up of "stupid interview questions" in this kind
of rant: Implement a breadth first search, or reverse a binary tree, or write
FizzBuzz. Are these really such difficult things to whip up, off the top of
your head? Is it really that unreasonable to want to hire someone who _can_ do
so?
Yes, if you need such a thing and it's not immediately obvious how to do it,
off to StackOverflow you go to find some example code, but these are basic "do
you understand fundamental data structure / control flow" type questions. It's
not like they're asking you to implement a theorem prover or something.
~~~
stegosaurus
I don't know what BFS is.
I just googled it. Oh, I know what it is now.
If you haven't been exposed to it, it's just jargon. That's the point. You are
testing for jargon rather than ability.
It is the distinction between saying 'implement FizzBuzz' and going silent,
and actually explaining what it is. As an interviewer it is easy to forget
that whilst you may have asked a question 20 times, this may be the
candidate's first encounter with your terminology.
Steelmanning as applied to interviews, basically.
~~~
bad_user
Trees and graphs are fundamental to computer science and there are only two
ways to traverse them. I don't know what kids are doing these days, but I
learned this because of my high-school curricula.
In other words, it's OK if you don't have a formal education in computer
science, but when you don't have it, you need to make up for it by learning on
your own, because this is basic stuff that high-school kids are learning. And
it's even worse when people do have that education on their resume and don't
know BFS, because it means they cheated on those courses.
And what would you prefer for a hiring test? Straight IQ tests? A requirement
for public, open-source contributions? Or are you speaking of querying
databases and fading out divs? I think we can all agree that neither is
entirely fair.
And keep in mind that for all the pain involved in the interview process, the
only alternative is optimistic hiring for a test period, except that doesn't
work because it causes distress to everybody involved if it doesn't work out.
This is why many companies now prefer internships, because thus they are
dealing with young people that don't have big expectations.
~~~
stegosaurus
I think this makes sense if you consider an interview as extending a hand to a
poor, down-trodden vagrant, rather than an exchange amongst equals.
The article might go over the top a bit with self-pity, but personally I just
see it as suboptimal behaviour.
[http://danluu.com/programmer-moneyball/](http://danluu.com/programmer-
moneyball/) \- Dan Luu explains better than I can.
I think fundamentally the idea of paying developer X 40K and developer Y 80K
(because developer Y has been twice as effective in the past) is broken,
because it negates the impact of environment.
If you pay someone 150K GBP in London they can live next door to the office,
have TaskRabbit like services perform all household tasks for them, and spend
their time exercising and reading 24/7\. They will kill it.
Pay them 30K, and regardless of pedigree, they're going to struggle.
Somewhere in there is a balance and I argue it's far less to do with
certification and more the circumstances of life which as an employer you have
huge discretion to influence.
Basically, it's about steelmanning. Why is someone bad? Is it that they're
inherently genetically dysfunctional? Or is it that they haven't been coached
well or have a difficult environment?
Given good faith, most of the developers I know have the ability to be
amazing. I include myself in that (am I that good? dunno, impostor syndrome
innit). But they are stifled by needless nonsense. Management, open office,
low pay, commute, stress, basically. Kill the stress and you get your '10x
engineer'. Keep the stress and your '10x engineer' turns into a chocolate
mousse.
~~~
bad_user
Are you sure you replied to the right comment? :-)
From my point of view, an interview really isn't an exchange between equals,
but a meetup where two parties meet, state their demands and evaluate each
other. It works in both directions of course.
~~~
stegosaurus
Yes, I am.
>> From my point of view, an interview really isn't an exchange between equals
If you design it that way, sure. It doesn't have to be like that.
The whole principle here is that there exists a growing portion of developers
who can't be bothered with interview ping pong.
If you don't want them, great! Everyone wins. You don't need to convince us,
we won't be working at your company anyway.
~~~
bad_user
So first of all, I'm not hiring :-P I see your point though and I don't agree.
First of all, the point of the interview isn't to determine whether somebody
is bad, or improperly couched. Surely interviewers would love being able to do
that, but it's not possible to do it in a couple of hours.
During the interview all you get to do is to apply a noise filter to get rid
of the incredibly bad ones. Because without that filter you can get people
that are a very bad fit and that can cost you the project and the morale of
your existing employees. It's incredibly taxing to fire somebody. Every time
it happened to see a colleague being fired, internal discussions, personal
attacks and bad feelings happened internally, every single time and not just
at one company. And then in big corporations, because of the risks involved in
firing people, you get an even worse effect - you see them "promoted".
And with a noise filter you can naturally have many, many false negatives, as
in people that are in fact good, but won't pass the test and interviewers are
willing to have that risk, instead of risking false positives.
Of course, from what you're saying, I think you believe everybody can be
great. Well, yeah, I think everybody can be great at something useful, but not
everybody can be great at something specific. We software developers are too
idealistic at times. I don't see surgeons going around telling other people
that everybody can be a surgeon. That would be a preposterous thing to say.
On the other hand I do think that if companies want good people, they should
invest in education.
> _The whole principle here is that there exists a growing portion of
> developers who can 't be bothered with interview ping pong._
I can agree with that. I'm not into interviewing myself. I'm not into
switching jobs that often either. I can't be bothered with that because I've
got satisfying things to work on already. Capitalism and the free market cuts
both ways, right?
------
dmitrygr
The author claiming he'll never need to do a BFS, and thus does not need to
know it is kind of funny to read. You should never be proud of your ignorance.
Oh, you think you're a front-end dev and will never need to do anything else?
What happened to striving for growth (personal and professional)? Why not
_learn_ how to write a BFS instead of writing a rant about your pride in not
knowing it? Are you really just proud of doing your one thing, doing it well,
and have no interest in ever branching out? If so, it is not surprise nobody
will hire you (who needs a single-use tool?). If not, then also no surprise as
you've shown a complete lack of desire to learn (who needs an inflexible
employee?).
I am further sorry to tell you that your github history is irrelevant. I've
seen _ _my_ _ code on github under 10 names. None of them mine. I'd never
trust anyone's github profile - no reason to believe they wrote the code, they
did it themselves, and how many attemtps of guess-and-check they needed (or
not). You know what I do trust? Your ability to prove your "skills", in
person, under realistic pressure, on demand, and on a schedule. You know, by
solving a problem perhaps a bit out of your comfort zone. Maybe a simple maze?
~~~
Filthy_casual
A jack of all trades isn't inherently better at all trades. There's great
value to be found in a specialist.
And if you're hiring a front-end pay him as such. If you want him to know more
than front-end beforehand, pay him extra.
~~~
dmitrygr
specialist != only know one thing
specialist = know one thing well, many things a little
only know one thing = useless one-time-use-tool whom i will contract for
exactly my one-time-problem and then move on from
------
zeemonkee3
Why don't companies who ask these kinds of CS questions in interviews just put
in the job ad something along the lines of "if you pass the initial filter
we'll invite you for an interview. We'll grill you on some data structures &
algorithms & give you some whiteboard challenges".
Which is absolutely OK. If that's what you're going to do - regardless whether
it's sensible or not - then potential candidates can either ignore your ad,
and save everyone's time, or apply to you knowing what to expect. If a large
enough number of desirable companies do this a candidate might decide to brush
up on CS 101 and interview practice.
That's honest and courteous, instead of ambushing candidates in the interview
stage - when they've taken a precious vacation day and taken the time flying
out to see you. And it saves you time - any candidate you get should know what
to expect.
~~~
Xyik
I've interviewed at companies like this (Amazon / Google / Microsoft) and they
do indeed tell you ahead of time there will give algorithms / data structures
/ coding.
~~~
kkapelon
No they don't. I had interviews with both Amazon and Google and nobody told me
that.
After two years Amazon called be back for a second interview. I told them that
I am not interested if they still have that kind of questions. They said they
don't.
I flew to a different country for that second interview and guess what! They
still asked those kind of questions.
------
k__
Don't get hired then. Just freelance and be done with it.
I as a developer can't understand why anyone skilled wants to be employed.
I was employed for about 7 years and now I'm a freelancer. I don't have to
discuss with my customers that I want to work from home, I just do it. I get
more money than before, I spend less for health insurance and taxes, I start
working when I want and not when some manager wants me in the office. And job
security seems a bit odd considering that everyone is searching for devs and
the demand seems to increase every year.
And the best thing is, I don't need to do dumb interviews anymore. When I
freelance people just ask me for solutions and give me money for them. When I
look for employment for doing exact the same stuff I do as a freelancer,
suddenly they want to know the weirdest stuff and ask me to do dumb tests.
~~~
johnward
"I as a developer can't understand why anyone skilled wants to be employed."
I'm mostly scared of the lack of a "guaranteed" salary. I'm a consultant for
IBM Watson. My skills are in demand. I could probably go on my own for about
$150 an hour; work less and make more. I'm afraid to take that leap though. I
have a family I'm responsible for and live paycheck to paycheck now.
I also have similar experience in my job search but I attribute it mostly to
me just being a failure at interviews.
------
aavz
I'm sorry, but breadth-first-search is a simple and fundamental algorithm and
straightforward to write if you understand the concept and have decent coding
skills. You're just visiting a level of the tree at a time: stick each level
in a list, iterate over it, and append the next level's nodes to the next
list. There's no trick to it.
Not being able to do write a basic BFS algorithm suggests a) you didn't do any
interview prep and b) whatever you've been working on hasn't involved any non-
trivial algorithms.
It doesn't mean you're a bad programmer but if you can't answer a basic BFS
algorithms question I wouldn't trust you to touch code with any non-trivial
algorithms in it.
~~~
geebee
That's reasonable, but I'd like to share an experience I had interviewing a
long time back.
I'd been writing lots of mathematically intensive code for building and
solving large scale linear programs for about a year, and I interviewed at a
job that was doing lots of math-ish business analysis. Code would certainly be
written.
I was incredibly busy, and mainly spent my interview prep on math I thought
would be relevant, though I really didn't adequately prep for the interview.
One of my interview questions involved some simple (really, I must be honest
there, it was simple) recursive tree traversal. I blew it, and I'm pretty sure
this is why they didn't hire me.
Six months later, I had to use quite a bit of tree traversal to model a series
of conditions that had to occur in several possible patterns for a
manufacturing system. Because there were various combinations of events that
would "pass", I used trees to model the system, and I needed to recursively
determine, in the event that the system didn't pass, what possible paths
(including the least cost path) existed to bring the system into compliance.
I picked up my old reference books, reviewed for a couple days, and started
writing code. As I did this, I started to feeling kind of embarrassed about
the questions I had failed, since I was now reminded of how basic they
actually were. I was chatting with a coworker about it and mentioned the
interview, and told him that I could see why they didn't want to hire me.
He's my buddy, so he tends to say nice things, but he said (paraphrasing from
memory): "but wait, doesn't that prove the opposite? The moment you needed to
do tree traversal, you knew exactly where to go look. You know about these
algorithms, you've done them and taken exams on them in the past, you just
don't walk around ready to implement these algorithms on the spot."
So ok, BFS is so basic that I'll probably never forget how to to it again. But
right now, this moment? I'd have to reason back through it. To get really
sharp (especially since I won't know the questions in advance), yeah, I'd have
to hit the books for a while.
Just how many times do I need to re-take my Data Structures and Algorithms
midterm?
~~~
pklausler
How the question is posed really matters. What if the question had been "hey,
you have a starting node in a linked structure, and you want to visit /
collect / search all of the nodes that it can reach, without duplicates",
you'd probably come up with DFS or BFS on the spot because the problem is not
that hard and those are really the only two ways to attack it, and having
found one of the two you'd probably also realize that the other approach could
have been used. Whereas, if just asked to implement DFS or BFS, the question
becomes less about problem solving aptitude and more about memorization.
~~~
geebee
All that is true, but I went through some interviews last year at Google, and
honestly, you really can't afford to be thinking about things like this.
Nobody is going to ask you to just implement DFS, but you may get a problem
that essentially reduces to DFS, if you can see it. In my experience, you
really will be expected to solve this problem at a whiteboard in 45 minutes.
Syntax and so forth won't be an issue, but you can't do too much handwaving,
you really are expected to write code that solves the problem.
If you have to stop and reason your way back through DFS, I'd say there's no
way you'll get this done in 45 minutes. You need to know this stuff _cold_.
Rote memorization is useless, of course, because you won't be able to adapt or
modify these algorithms. But there's a kind of memorization in the level of
sharpness and mental prep you need to have when you walk into those
interviews.
~~~
pklausler
I've conducted hundreds of programming interviews for Google, and I'd expect
any good candidate to need way less than 45 minutes to code up a graph
traversal in arbitrary order, even if I believed that they didn't already know
an algorithm for doing so.
------
liquidise
I recently wrote a post on designing better tech interview questions. [1] But
one thing i never see interviewees do is outright ask, "Wait, what does this
question _actually_ tell you about me?" I find myself asking it in nearly
every interview i go to.
If you ask and your interviewer gets glassy-eyed or gives you the laughably
generic "it shows how well you think algorithmically" you know that you are
being interviewed by someone who has little clue what they are doing. It is a
great way, from your side of the table, to understand if your time is being
wasted right out of the gate.
1: [http://blog.benroux.me/4-steps-to-making-your-interview-
suck...](http://blog.benroux.me/4-steps-to-making-your-interview-suck-less/)
~~~
p4wnc6
"We want to see how you think" is a hallmark of dysfunction. You cannot see
how someone thinks from short interviews and coding puzzles. You just cannot.
Anyone trying to is so far from doing things right that you want to run, don't
walk, away from them.
The only way to really see how someone thinks is to just hire them, work with
them for a while, and fire them if they can't do the job. You can either pay
the costs of hiring and firing (like on-boarding, benefits, administration,
severance) and get useful signal about their performance, or you can spend the
same money by throwing it away on useless shit like HackerRank-style trivia
tests. Per applicant, the HackerRank thing seems cheaper, but you typically
have to spam it across many more applicants, endure losses due to great
candidates who won't agree to your bullshit hiring process, and still end up
firing people sometimes when they pass the trivia but (surprise) it didn't
mean they would be good at the job. So overall, it's just as expensive.
You spend the money either way, might as well get useful signal out of it.
~~~
ktRolster
_The only way to really see how someone thinks is to just hire them, work with
them for a while, and fire them if they can 't do the job._
That's the worst idea ever
~~~
p4wnc6
It's what Netflix does, so your dismissal seems badly placed.
~~~
ktRolster
It looks like Netflix has a fairly lengthy interview process, including
technical questions: [https://www.glassdoor.com/Interview/Netflix-Interview-
Questi...](https://www.glassdoor.com/Interview/Netflix-Interview-
Questions-E11891.htm)
They fire people quickly, sure, but they don't "just hire them" either.
~~~
p4wnc6
Only one or two of those interview descriptions mention anything like the
bullshit tech trivia this thread is about. Most describe take-home problems,
extended design conversations, and technical sessions that are more like
extended conversations.
You seem to infer that the phrase "just hire them" means you do absolutely
zero interviewing, which was not my intention.
When I said "just hire them" I meant "do some obvious stuff, like talk about
their experience, ask a high-level question and expect a discussiony answer,
not short, commoditized trivia, and if based on that stuff it seems
reasonable, then just hire them and don't obsess over cramming more dumb
trivia filters into the process."
I took it for granted that everyone reading this would understand that basic
interview (e.g. talk to someone, ask about their resume items, have a
discussion) is always necessary.
The "just hire them" part is meant to say that people should not get stuck up
their own ass with trying to put together a ridiculous number of commodity
filters up front before getting to that conversation stage, and that the
conversation stage should function more like a rolling basis hire than like a
process in which you tediously examine every candidate first, then go back and
eliminate and re-interview, etc.
I think the Netflix process fits what I'm saying very well.
~~~
ktRolster
_When I said "just hire them" I meant "do some obvious stuff, like talk about
their experience, ask a high-level question and expect a discussiony answer,
not short, commoditized trivia, and if based on that stuff it seems
reasonable, then just hire them and don't obsess over cramming more dumb
trivia filters into the process."_
There's a big difference between the words "just hire them" and what you meant
by those words.
~~~
p4wnc6
I disagree. It's pretty obvious that no one would mean to literally hire
someone with zero screening of any kind. It's unreasonable to read "just hire
them" to mean something that extreme.
~~~
ktRolster
_I disagree. It 's pretty obvious_
ok. It wasn't obvious to me lol
~~~
p4wnc6
It surprises me greatly that you wouldn't account for some base level of
vetting of any candidate, and place my comment in the context of much of the
rest of the thread, which is clearly about whether or not commoditized trivia
testing is a useful way of vetting candidates.
It greatly surprises me that anyone enough in touch with tech to even be
reading Hacker News in the first place would choose to read my comment that
way.
I'm not saying you're wrong or trying to defend my writing. I'm just saying
there's no way in a million lifetimes that I would have anticipated even the
most remote possibility of someone taking it that way, and even after reading
that you saw it that way, my prior is still so heavily weighted towards the
obviousness from context that I still wouldn't ever expect this and doubt that
if I make similar comments in the future, they will adequately account for
someone reading it in the manner in which you did. It's just too unlikely of a
perspective.
------
quantum_nerd
While I do agree with the OP that the tech hiring process "might" be broken, I
noticed a pattern in his interviews: it seems to me like a self-fulfilling
prophecy. From the get go, he already considered the interviewers as enemies
and went in with a mindset that they are out to get him. That wouldn't
probably help calm those nervous nerves, neither would it show your
prospective coworkers that you are someone they would enjoy working with(which
is a fundamental part of the interview, I believe).
I have actually noticed that most tech companies(at least they ones I've had
to deal with, namely Facebook, Google, Amazon, and Microsoft) are doing all
they can to take the guess work out of interviews with training sessions,
resources, etc...
All the OP needs is to change his attitude from cynical to optimistic and I
promise, things will change for him.
Also, BFS (and DFS) are as basic as you can get with algorithms. Either of
them is not longer than 10 lines of codes; just remember that BFS uses a Queue
and DFS a Stack...
------
limaoscarjuliet
I am a VP at a medium size company and I do plenty of interviews. I usually
talk about what people are interested in and then ask one question:
"You are in front of PC/Mac/Mobile screen, type www.cnn.com into browser, and
press enter. A fraction of a second images show up on the screen... How? What
happened? Tell me all you can from key press interrupts to underwater fiber
cables".
This question never failed me. It always shows how deep does one go in their
computer science adventures.
~~~
jerich
Wow. What a great question! I found that I was sitting here answering it to
myself. After starting down a rabbit-hole on how the browser would probably
need to do some GPU initialization, I realized how much fun I'd have talking
through this with someone in an interview.
"Let's see, I guess the wifi radio is going to have to do an RSSI
measurement..."
It actually gave me goosebumps when I realized that I was so caught up in it
and how excited I was getting.
~~~
kragniz
[https://github.com/alex/what-happens-when](https://github.com/alex/what-
happens-when)
------
justsaysmthng
What worries me a lot is the proliferation of these puzzle solving interview
sites which waste candidate's time and prove almost nothing except that the
candidate can solve high school olympiad problems.
Many companies require this as a first step, before even talking to the
candidate.
Apart from the problems being totally unlike what your future work will be
like, the time constraint proves .. what ? That a candidate can "think fast" ?
What about code quality, architecture, design patterns, build systems,
concurrency, etc ?
Here's what I've decided to do when they reply with a coding interview task:
I charge my clients 50 EUR an hour. If you want me to spend 3 hours on a
coding interview as proof that I can code, then I'll expect you to pay me 150
EUR as proof that you can pay.
I think this is fair. Otherwise, I'm going to knock on someone else's door,
were I can talk programming with an actual person, share "war stories" and get
excited about building something cool together.
------
kinai
"I could feel my frustration rise as I am struggling to come up with a
solution on a whiteboard....yep, I am definitely not going to pass this
interview. I ran out of time before coming up with a working solution."
Instead of standing there with nothing its better to be straight up and just
say "No idea mate" and then name reasons why that is but how you'd solve it in
a normal situation. It is a lot about human psychology, showing them that they
want/need you, not vice versa.
Sometimes all it takes is balls and a good amount of "I don't give a fuck"
attitude.
I wouldn't let anyone treat me like Sahat got treated.
~~~
mikearagua
Funny. I'm like that too, if the interviewer isn't focused on the actual
position and what I'd be doing in it and the problem solving and knowledge
surrounding the actual work I'd be doing on a day to day basis, I bail because
it's a bad sign to me that I'm talking to people who are _way_ too comfortable
wasting time.
But luckily I'm usually in the hiring manager's chair these days and my
interviews aren't easy but they're not a stupid game.
~~~
kinai
Yea I once left during an interview when I realized that I don't want to work
there anyway (the atmosphere told me).
------
mixmastamyk
> From this moment on, I would rather be unemployed and homeless rather than
> do another tech interview. Enough is enough.
God, happened to me this year, highlights:
- "Do you like to wear a tie to work?"
(perhaps because I'm 40-ish)
- "Tell us about your worst boss."
(from three guys with frowns and folded arms)
- "Do/talk through this sorting problem on the whiteboard/webpage..."
(With people watching, clock ticking over $100k in suitcase, gun to head)
I gave up as well, am now writing a book on software, unsure it will sell.
------
Bahamut
Yep, the interview process is pretty broken. It took me 5 Google phone screens
before I got invited to an on-site (although one of those phone screens had
the technical phone interview waived due to the team's familiarity with my
skills, but I still got rejected amusingly) - the only reason I made it was
because I failed & learned from each of the previous phone screens enough to
pass.
This is an absolutely awful way to interview. However, the author should learn
some patience & attack the problem. You deal with the cards you're given - it
took me 2 1/2 years of applying to jobs before I lucked into get a job in the
tech industry after grad school, and lots of wtfs in many interviews after I
entered tech. Learning how to take it on the chin and keep going is an
important skill for success - he could learn something from sales in that
respect.
~~~
mixmastamyk
If we (collectively) could fail faster it would help, but currently
interviewing is incredibly time-consuming.
------
cottonseed
As someone hiring right now, I feel your pain and, while I hope I compare
favorably to the interviews your describe, I wish I was better.
My one piece of advice: read Nick Corcodilos's Reinventing the Interview:
[http://www.amazon.com/Ask-Headhunter-Reinventing-
Interview-W...](http://www.amazon.com/Ask-Headhunter-Reinventing-Interview-
Win/dp/0452278015)
The basic idea is demonstrate you can provide value to the company, and you
have the skills to do the job. If you're stuck with a disinterested
interviewer asking irrelevant questions, make it about the job you'll do and
your ability to succeed in the job. He has concrete suggestions. I say, if
they're not open to that and it is clearly not working, tell them you it is
not going to work out and stop the interview rather than enduring another
miserable experience.
------
collyw
Its ironic that I would have done better in these hackerrank type challenges
straight out of university, even though the code I write now is way better.
~~~
aristus
It's not ironic, it's very much by design. It's a bit like the Army. In theory
anyone of any age and background can join up, but the physical requirements
and "culture fit" does a very good job of selecting for young males.
~~~
ryanx435
> It's a bit like the Army. In theory anyone of any age and background can
> join up.
this is patently false. There are very strict requirements for enlisting/being
commissioned [0], including minimum and maximum age for new members, minimum
aptitude tests, and either be a us citizen or a resident alien. Also many
people are disqualified for having a criminal record.
> but the physical requirements and "culture fit" does a very good job of
> selecting for young males.
yes, this makes sense. "Culture fit" must be the reason that every single
military in the history of the world from every culture ever has been heavily
male dominated.
/s
[0] [http://www.military.com/join-armed-forces/join-the-
military-...](http://www.military.com/join-armed-forces/join-the-military-
basic-eligibility.html)
~~~
aristus
Sure, it's 17-34, but the curve of applicants weights heavily toward the left
side. And it's not universal; Grace Hopper joined the Navy at 37. Also also,
the "aptitude test" sounds a lot like that whiteboard process, right? That was
my point. :)
------
Apocryphon
This story serves as an interesting counterpoint to Haseeb Qureshi's interview
experience
([https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11552780](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11552780)).
I think some discussion about how he and Sahat's experiences contrast would be
useful.
I almost want to joke that it's Sahat should have done a bootcamp, since that
seems to have been Haseeb's advantage; he learned everything about CS very
recently and freshly, in an environment where he would be absorbing material
that's tech interview fodder. Coupled with Haseeb's intelligence and quickness
in absorbing said material, he must have impressed his interviewers. Whereas,
an experienced developer like Sahat is worse off- ironically, by not being new
to the field, he lacked the advantage of seeing like a fast learner. It's
almost like ageism but specific to how long one has been programming.
And on the subject of hacker bootcamps- I've heard a lot of them not only
teach programming, but how to optimize one's interviewing skills. If bootcamp
graduates are doing well because of that, does that mean there should be
bootcamps for experienced devs who want to switch jobs, just so they can ace
interview questions? And is that really what this industry has come to?
Memorizing algorithms and strategies for passing data structure logic puzzles
in cram schools just to get a job?
------
truetuna
I've had my fair share of bad interviews too. Just recently I was interviewing
for a full stack position with a company that tried to get me to recite "what
happens when I type google.com into my browser". I asked them where they had
gotten idea from and showed them this: [https://github.com/alex/what-happens-
when](https://github.com/alex/what-happens-when). They decided ask me another
question soon after.
Sometimes the questions aren't even related to data structures or algorithms.
I'm OK with those because at least you can somewhat prepare for them. I've
once had an interviewer ask me obscure questions about Netscape 6 (this was
2016 btw).
> I much prefer “homework” projects, even if they involve me working “for
> free”, because I feel like they ask for actual programming skills rather
> than the “guess the algorithm” lottery of phone screens and whiteboard
> coding.
Me too but when you're interviewing with 3+ companies at the same time while
working at your current job, it gets difficult. There was one time where I had
spend my Saturday afternoon maybe 6-8 hours completing their "homework"
project. I got a call back from them a few days later for a follow up
interview and they flat out didn't even bother to ask about the project I had
completed for them. What was the point?
Tech interviews suck.
~~~
odonnellryan
> I got a call back from them a few days later for a follow up interview and
> they flat out didn't even bother to ask about the project I had completed
> for them. What was the point?
It's worse when they give you an _easy_ project that takes you ~30 hrs to
complete, they state it "doesn't have to be finished," then disqualify you
because "why didn't you use a graph database for this problem?"
Oh well. Same company was using Mongo+Node on a new startup from when they
were still in year one. Wish them the best..
------
blubb-fish
Why bother applying at those __super __fancy companies. There are loads of
medium-sized shops with a friendly work atmosphere and reasonable hiring
practices.
Vimeo, Facebook, Google, ... they hire elitists and those design the
interviews. And honestly I doubt their work is at the end of the day more
efficient then that of most other "regular" companies.
~~~
pound
because of money?
------
aetherson
I feel like it's a little weird that one of the author's big examples of a
difficult algorithmic question is breadth-first search. While I agree it's not
something that's very likely to come up much in real work (especially for a
front-end dev!), it's also... not actually hard? You check the current node
for your truth condition, you add its children to a queue, you pop the queue
and do the same thing for that node. If the queue is empty, you return false.
~~~
reitoei
Everything is easy when you know how to do it.
~~~
jldugger
> Everything is easy when you know how to do it.
Yes?
The point of an CS education is just as much to study well known algorithms
and re-apply them to new contexts as it is to invent new ones. In fact, for
most professionals, I'd argue the weighting is well slanted towards
reapplication.
Our dev team previously used FizzBuzz, and found that every applicant was
passing it. So they wanted a new take home programming problem, and internally
their most important criteria was 'demonstrates algorithmic thinking.' They
mostly write and maintain simple Django webapps, so I thought this was a bit
silly, and suggested if they wanted to measure that, give candidates a problem
easily solvable with topological sort. Unfortunately they bit hard and only
found out afterwards that pretty much no applicants solved the problem
correctly. We still hired four people from that round. So in some sense,
turnover within a year will mean that none of our dev team can pass their own
interview.
------
vijucat
Experiment : hire 10% of candidates without conducting any interviews. Use
Machine Learning to quantify internal or external candidates' code quality.
Use that model to score candidates' GitHub. Hire them.
Well, OK, throw in a sociability / not-a-psycho score using LinkedIn or
twitter or whatever.
I'd outsource this to gild.com who seem to know what they're doing.
Methinks management will be surprised at how well these 10% do despite not
passing the usual "What happens when I flip all the color bits in a red-black
tree" or whatever shibboleth is being used these days. Admit it : most work,
even at Google, doesn't involve knowing how self-balancing trees work. On the
other hand, getting things done matters everywhere.
~~~
autotune
One caveat: you can't use Machine Learning to quantify someone's overall
personality and whether you actually _want_ to work with them or not. Sure
they can contribute quality code, but if they come in and have to do a 5
minute breakdance after each contribution or throw a hissy fit when their code
gets critiqued, probably not a good culture fit.
~~~
vijucat
True. Maybe (non-technical) team lunches / one-on-one lunches together before
one seals the deal?
------
fecak
The good news is there are plenty of shops that don't ask these types of
questions in interviews. Most of the companies you mention have a technical
reputation as being elite, and as you say they can hire or interview as they
please.
Everybody can't work for Google, and there may be some that _could_ work for
Google if they were better at interviewing the way Google does (and these
other companies do).
The author harbors some hostility towards the recruiters that have landed him
these interviews. I'm a recruiter, and I too harbor some hostility towards
recruiters when they behave badly.
The recruiters in all of these situations seem to have done the author a
service, and there are no explanations of the recruiters behaving badly (other
than the going silent/no feedback scenario).
Telling recruiters to "F __* OFF " is just blaming the messenger. They didn't
design the interviews, they didn't conduct the technical interviews being
complained about, and they didn't make the decision not to hire. They simply
facilitated the process and relayed the message.
Blame recruiters when they behave badly. Lying about salary ranges, 'bait and
switch' jobs, etc. Don't blame them when they do their jobs, just because you
didn't like the outcome.
------
overcast
So there's really no hope for the self taught without formal algorithm
training. I can start from an idea, build an entire site from the ground up,
including hardware, OS, programming environments,
mysql/oracle/rethinkdb/mongodb/arangodb + all their query languages, backend
nodejs/php/python code, all custom frontend css/stylus/vuejs/js/responsive,
domain / dns / hosts, email servers, deployment and administer the entire
stack. But I guarantee I'd fail every single one of these tests.
I guess I'll go back to building my own projects, because none of this sounds
enjoyable.
~~~
tyingq
The flavor here is very much the Google/Facebook/Apple + Tech Startup crowd.
Dev jobs outside of that little bubble tend to have very different interview
techniques.
------
louden
I have been on the other side of the table and I'm sure I came off as
indifferent. The problem is, I have been thrown into the interview as an
interviewer multiple times with about 1 hour notice when I have many other
things to focus on.
It is definitely a broken process in many companies.
------
user_rob
I sympathise. I have not agreed to tech problems in interviews for years. In
my experience I get more job offers for more $ if I refuse to do them rather
than answering problems either rightly or wrongly. Either makes no difference.
I have even turned offers down because of the stupidity of the interviewers.
Stop doing silly interview questions professionals should be above that.
~~~
lj3
Could you elaborate? When somebody gets you on the phone and says "could you
explain how to reverse a binary search tree?" do you just say "no"?
------
JDiculous
Yes, hiring is ridiculous at big tech companies that everybody wants to work
for. Asking a ton of CS questions is justified if the job is actually CS
heavy, but most front end jobs aren't. The dentist analogy is spot on.
My recommendation is to apply to smaller, lesser known companies. Much much
less bullshit and time wasting. There are enough jobs out there that you don't
have to deal with this bullshit.
Time spent on learning extraneous knowledge solely for the purpose of passing
interviews for jobs that don't actually utilize such knowledge is a massive
waste of society's resources.
------
pjlegato
"Programming trivia" style interviews are the bane of our profession. They
serve primarily to allow the people doing the interview to feel clever and
superior when they discover that the candidate can't implement a red-black
tree from memory on a whiteboard. They tell you little about whether the
person is a good candidate.
There is a school of thought, baffling to me, that suggests that knowledge is
mere rote memorization of facts, so the best way to test people in anything is
to check their memorization of the relevant material. This interviewing style
derives from that school of thought.
This is, of course, utter bullshit, especially given that the details of the
topics chosen are almost entirely irrelevant to the actual job of a software
engineer. A working programmer who re-implements a red-black tree from scratch
is almost always doing it wrong. Someone has already built that and debugged
it and optimized it, and you should be using that implementation, not redoing
it from scratch yourself. The "programming trivia" interview style is like
interviewing an architect by handing them some iron ore and asking them to
smelt high grade steel out of it. That's not what architects do. They buy
premade steel smelted by experts, then use it to build other things.
The solution? Real-world programming as an interview. Either give them a toy
problem, or pay them to do some minor bit of actual work on your system for a
day or two, if that is feasible. Then get out of their way. Give them a laptop
and the Internet, leave them alone for a few hours, and see what they can do.
Afterwards, do a code review. Then discuss their programming and engineering
philosophy.
Why don't people do this? It takes a lot longer, and requires the interviewer
to think more. It's much less cognitive load for the interviewer to memorize
some obscure data structures and ask candidates to recite their construction.
------
raverbashing
And of course we then will have to hear the sad stories of companies saying
"they can't find talent"
And that's not even going into the salary/H1B issue, the problem is much
deeper than that.
\- I was an advocate at first, but take home exercises are pretty much
useless. Because they at best won't fail you. And of course you could have
written a new sorting algorithm that works on O(n) but what you'll get back is
a complaint about coding style
\- Having a github might be nice but as the article says it seems to be also
in the category "won't fail you". It seems to barely matter
\- And of course companies like Google ignore everything and make a test out
of your interview, fail/pass grade, period.
People are probably missing an empathy component or working outside of the "SV
tech clique" where if you don't code for 12h per day and doesn't know all
libraries and algorithms by heart you're not even considered
------
m52go
WOW. I thought I was in a weak spot by being self-taught and scattered.
So just who the hell is passing these inquisitions? What's really necessary?
~~~
TDL
I'm right there with you. There is a lot of FUD on both sides of this issue,
it would be nice to know what the reality of tech interviewing is. I can't
seem to get passed perfunctory phone screens right now (if I even get those.)
------
yownie
I'm currently considering jobs directions too and finally have a name for what
I'm experiencing. "career interview fatigue", it's probably similar to
whatever performing elephants in circuses experience right before they snap.
I think it comes from a decade of experience of being asked to jump through
increasingly ridiculous hoop sizes over time, and complicity cooperating with
this nonsense system in an otherwise analytical logical calling.
------
percept
In jobs or sales or relationships (which is ultimately what this is:
interpersonal relationship dynamics), the best outcomes are effortless. If
there's too much friction, it's probably not going to work out. The best
job/deal/friend/partner will simply fall into your lap, and you'll wonder how
it can be so simple.
The challenge is finding these. Careful filtering can help, but it seems to be
largely a numbers game.
This becomes increasingly difficult, as more companies are infected with these
faddish processes every day.
And there's a cost, of time and money and contentment. To help reduce this,
consider spending increasingly less time on opportunities you deem unlikely to
work out, based on past experience.
I often prequalify jobs--sometimes companies respond, sometimes not, but that
also provides me with useful information.
------
robbiemitchell
Most people are commenting about the technical nature of the interviewers, but
the communication between company and applicant is often broken as well. It's
the difference between not getting an offer and then (a) hating the company or
(b) supporting it and recommending it to other potential applicants. Companies
underestimate these effects.
Once you bring someone in for an interview, you owe them a phone call, with
email as a backup.
~~~
GFischer
Some companies do have good feedback processes.
I was rejected twice by a large company, which both had a much saner interview
process (take-home excercises and much better in-person interviews), and I
still think very highly of it (and I know the people that did get in and they
were indeed very good).
------
was_boring
It's unclear what sort of prep work the author put into each interview, but
interviewing is nothing more than a sales pitch and a "game" to be played.
I'm 100% self taught, having never set foot in a CS classroom, and this is
what I do for every interview process: 1\. Find everything you can about
company and their interview style; 2\. skim over Algorithms in a Nutshell; 3\.
Take an hour to refresh Big O notation; 4\. Read up on "best practices" for
the technologies the company uses.
Finally, after the interview always follow up -- say something nice and
memorable, be humble and express interest in learning their technology stack
_before_ your first day on the job.
I find it takes 2-3 company's before I hit my "interviewing stride".
------
746F7475
Didn't care to read after first rant about hiring process. It just seems like
you are not a fit for Google. People always try to find company which
"culture" fits them, but it also works the other way around, even if you wish
to work for Google, maybe just for the salary or other benefits, if you are
poor fit for the company culture then you are a net loss.
~~~
odonnellryan
I interviewed for Google. I didn't get the job, but they were 100% awesome
people. Even followed up after asking if I had an complaints, or questions, or
anything like that.
~~~
746F7475
I would love to get to experience something like that, but I don't have the
educational merits to even be considered by industry heavy hitters like that.
~~~
odonnellryan
I didn't have the credentials, and I still don't. I just submitted my resume
with a cover letter.
------
tyingq
>> _" The first round started with introductions, followed by a coding
exercise — write a maze solving algorithm. What the fuck?! Seriously?...I am
not a recent college graduate anymore"_
I wonder if just writing a brute-force maze solver, and then explaining that
you are aware better solutions exist...but that you didn't have any memorized,
would have sufficed.
~~~
akadien
If you're sure you don't want the job, turn the tables and say something like
"I have no clue. Can you show me?" Most likely, they don't have a clue either.
~~~
jghn
Unlikely. They have likely asked that question countless times and even if
they couldn't initially they could now.
If you could go back in time to before they've ever seen it, well then yeah, I
agree.
------
jmaley
TLDR: Doesn't know computer science fundamentals, doesn't get hired in a role
that requires computer science fundamentals.
Is this Hacker News or Script-Kiddie News?
~~~
kkapelon
Can you explain why a front-end position _requires_ computer science
fundamentals?
If you are a company and have to select between two front-end developers where
one has a vast portfolio of production apps that you find impressive and the
other knows BFS by heart (but has never shipped something to production), who
would you choose?
~~~
jmaley
Consider a scenario where the developer is required to write a custom
directory tree. Each row contains a caret and a checkbox. When either of these
are clicked, you'll need to perform some sort of tree traversal to ensure
integrity of the view -- for example, checking the checkbox on a row may
require that all children as selected too. Additionally, you may need an
upward traversal to the root to ensure the parents are either in a mixed or
unchecked state.
If the developer doesn't understand performance (or at the very least, basic
tree operations like searching/sorting/traversing), they're going to write
some horrible code. Google and Bloomberg have their pick, they don't want a
shitty developer.
~~~
beeboop
From a front-end developer perspective, I would google "navigation tree
jquery", download some library that does this for me, and be done with it. If
all children of a checkbox need to also be selected, that's like a single like
of jQuery. Worst case scenario, something custom is written, and yeah it's not
the best way and yeah it takes 100 milliseconds instead of 4, but who cares?
~~~
dagw
_Worst case scenario, something custom is written, and yeah it 's not the best
way and yeah it takes 100 milliseconds instead of 4, but who cares?_
The person who has to try to understand what the hell is going on and how to
add new features after the original developer has moved on to other things
probably cares quite a lot. The difference between a good programmer and a
mediocre programmer is not that one can solve the problem and the other can't,
but that the good one can solve the problem in an easy to understand and easy
to maintain way.
~~~
Apocryphon
And the difference between a good organization and a mediocre one is if a
crappy custom solution is caught during code review.
------
eulji
You have to go with the flow. Unfortunately.
They treat you like hobo that came to their kingdom begging for a cookie.
They are the kings and queens and you are nothing just a pathetic beggar.
It's really exhausting and painful to go through it again and again especially
when you know that most of the companies are just wannabe hipsters or the same
corporate hellholes.
They pretend they are on the same level as Rob Pike and alike but what most of
the people do is they write shitty code, shitty UI and shitty everything.
Google is definitely worse they cannot really make a compelling product that
would DIRECTLY earn them money .It's all about ADS.
------
NoMoreNicksLeft
I disagree.
A typical adult has the spare time to study 3-5 algorithms prior to an
upcoming interview, and the algorithm question lottery has room for several
hundred.
This means that the practice of trying to stump them with algorithm questions
provides a strong benefit to hiring managers: can this candidate read my mind
even before I've decided what it is I will ask of him?
They're selecting for psychic powers and do-what-I-want-ness. Which is what
most management in the United States (elsewhere probably, but I'm an
uncultured redneck type... wouldn't know) values.
------
niemyjski
Completely agree with all of your points. I think I'd do horrible in most on
the spot interviews, but give me an ide with intellisense and a book of
advanced algorithms and I'll complete what ever you want. I understand the
most common algorithms but I don't use them hardly ever in all the work I have
done over the past 10 years. Am I implementing a big data search engine, no.
So why would I know all the specifics to that, but given an hour or two of
reading I'd be up to speed and be on top of things.
~~~
odonnellryan
Yeah. I think teaching students algo at college does one thing really well: It
helps them understand runtime in association with the data structures they
will use.
Gives you an intuition of the proper way to implement something before you
know the big picture.
This isn't what interviews are testing: they are testing if you can implement
the algo. That is rarely important.
------
abustamam
I have a job at a startup as a software engineer. I waded through dozens of
interviews like Sahat's. "Do whiteboard problems," "solve this benign
algorithm problem."
The two job offers I did end up getting went something like this:
1\. "Show me a project you worked on. Tell us about it. Tell us about future
features. Okay, implement one of those features right now."
2\. _approaching me after an event I spoke at_ "Hey, are you by chance looking
for a job? We'd love to have you with us." _at "interview"_ "tell me about
your past experience, some projects you worked on, and how you learn new
things."
I feel like both of these "interviews" tackle two very important things as a
software engineer--can you use what you currently know to add a new feature?
And if you don't currently know it, do you know how to find it out?
I didn't know a lick about React, SVG, animation, databases, lodash, es6, or
trees, before I started working at my current job. But because they were able
to see how quickly I could learn new things, I started as a contractor (to
"test the waters" so to speak) and impressed them by proving them right.
And I think that's exactly what companies should strive for--hiring people who
can pick things up quickly. Of course, consulting firms may not have this
luxury, because they need to deliver now now now, but for SaaS companies, I
don't see why this method wouldn't work.
------
pacomerh
You're looking in the wrong companies. Based on the things you're solving
you'd be good for smaller companies or even the startup world. These usually
look at your experience more, and pay more attention to what you've done.
Bigger companies don't care about you, or what you did as much. They want to
test you right there. Bottom line, a smaller organization will value your open
source work more, if that is what you're looking for.
------
jfaucett
I think this boils down to just knowing what you are. Are you a computer
scientist or a programmer? These are two very different things - as much as
many people like to think they are not. To be a good (or very good) general
software programmer you need about as much math and physics as someone who has
completed 9th grade.
Some areas of programming will require specialized math knowledge of course
i.e. basic linear algebra for general game programming, and various algorithms
depending on your specialty. But in any programming field you will almost
never be expected to research new algorithms from scratch - this is the job of
scientists - and your job is just to implement those, and know enough to
choose the right one for the job.
This is just a long winded way of saying, I think a lot of HR departments need
to clear up for themselves what it is they are trying to recruit. If they want
people researching, you are going to need the algorithm/math/physics chops
inside and out, but if you are building 98% of the not so super theoretically
revolutionary products out there in the world, you really just want to hire
people who know how to pick the right tool and then use it i.e. code with it.
And to know how to pick the right tool, you do not need a PHD in CS.
~~~
dryajov
This, thats exactly what I think. We as an industry are so confused about what
we do that it's starting to become a real problem. Engineering is very
different from science and many companies are interviewing as if hiring a
scientist, for what is essentially an engineering role, and when they get
someone that can crack algos left and right, but can't code in real life
situations, they wonder WTF?
------
nfirvine
I've been doing a little interviewing at my company, hiring engineers. I tend
to avoid the pop quiz questions because I, having been asked them in
interviews before, can't imagine they're that valuable, and, considering our
field has plenty of introverts and autism spectrum-types, it's probably not
representative of their abilities in a real work environment.
HOWEVER. One candidate had a PhD and was very agreeable, had lots of
experience in other companies in our field. So I skipped the programming test,
since I figured a PhD with loads of experience _must_ be able to code...
A colleague of mine saw the candidate as they were leaving and ducked. I asked
them why. "Well, I personally lead to them getting fired a few jobs ago."
Turns out Colleague worked very closely with Candidate and Candidate can't
code worth shit: Colleague ended up personally redoing a ton of Candidate's
botched work, Boss noticed Colleague working way late for no good reason, and
after several chances, had to let Candidate go since they couldn't do their
job.
Anyway, I've come to the conclusion that I need to ask in-depth technical
problems, but I'll phrase it like this: "I'd like you to describe an A* path-
finding algorithm the best way you can (pseudocode, diagrams, assembly,
whatever). I'm not looking for a 'correct' answer, or syntax or class
diagrams. I want to watch how you solve problems of which you only have a
vague knowledge. If you'd like to refer to some resource, feel free to ask,
and I'll tell you if I know, or I'll find out."
I suspect this is the point of the technical question, but it's hard to tell
what interviewers actually want.
------
roansh
I agree with the most part of it, some of it doesn't seem quite right. For
instance, where author mentions he is a front-end developer and doesn't need
to deal with algorithms, and data structures -- it only gives a (false?) sense
that he doesn't want to deal with the problems. I agree with the "take-home
problems and submit solutions", idea to assess the candidate (or an
alternative solution could be -- work at their own office, like how you would
if you were an employee on the given problem) This basically strips away the
unnecessary pressure.
Now, about the real problem -- It has to be solved by both the parties, for
instance, somewhere in the middle of the article the author mentions he was
asked to write the BFS algorithm. In this particular scenario, the
interviewers should NOT expect the candidate to actually remember the
algorithm and write the solution right away like a bot (or a human who has
used it very recently) would. Here the interviewers can be more humble, more
human. They should check whether the candidate holds the problem solving
skills which is what is essential and NOT whether the candidate has a
computer-memory. Here, they could explain what BFS is, how it works, and then
give the candidate some time to come up with a solution.
Again, interviewers shouldn't expect a correct solution for the problem, it's
the attitude of the candidate towards the problem, and the way he/she thinks
about it -- that should be enough to give some idea about the skills he/she
holds for problem solving.
The idea is simple. Don't just drop some Dothraki (or some language the
candidate does not know) algorithm names, and ask what it is instead, skip the
names, explain the problem in simple words and ask for solutions.
------
koala_man
OP, it sounds like you work by looking up and remember solutions, and assume
everyone does the same. You're saying the questions are BS because you haven't
seen the solution in a long time (or ever):
> it has been a long time
> I vaguely remember
> this would have been a trivial problem to solve from memory, but that’s
> besides the point
> Do I remember how to implement those algorithms? No
> I am not a recent college graduate anymore who has breadth-first search
> memorized
> I haven’t implemented BFS in years, there is no way I can come up with a
> solution right here and now
> If, and when [...] I will go look it up
I normally wouldn't point it out since it sounds really condescending, but
after
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11554894](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11554894)
I don't know what to assume anymore:
They don't want you to remember or memorize solutions, they want you to be
able to implement it given just an informally explained approach (which you
may also be responsible for coming up with).
Converting ideas into code without having seen the code before is a realistic,
desirable and not at all uncommon skill.
I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a candidate to be able to write code
given the description "These objects have a value and links to similar
objects. We want to find a certain value by first looking at all our nearest
neighbors, then at their nearest neighbors, then at theirs, and so forth.",
even if they had never heard of graph theory or BFS, or seen code for it
before.
------
rayiner
I don't think the specific interview questions are all that y fair. BFS,
shortest path, etc, are building blocks of computer science and familiarity
with them is a good signal someone has a thorough education in algorithms. If
you're hiring an engineer and he's not familiar with the Bernoulli equation,
or a lawyer who isn't familiar with Marbury v. Madison, that'd give you pause
too.
The real issue is why is a front end developer expected to have an education
in algorithms? Part of the problem is that programmers doing the interviewing
like to show off, instead of focusing on the requirements of the position. I
remember the first time I interviewed someone. His resume said he knew C++, so
I asked him about the intricacies of templates. That revealed that his
knowledge of C++, like that of many people in the early 2000s, extended only
to "C with classes." Gave a negative evaluation. But in retrospect, all our
code was C with classes so what did it matter? I was really just showing off
that I had read TCPPPL.
~~~
vonmoltke
> If you're hiring an engineer and he's not familiar with the Bernoulli
> equation
What discipline are you hiring, and what do you define as "familiar with"? If
I am hiring an electrical engineer, I expect them all to know what Maxwell's
equations are and what they represent. I would only expect an analog, mixed-
signal, or power systems engineer to know how to apply them. Even then I would
expect them to look up the equations.
Engineering has been standing on a foundation of reference books for as long
as the discipline has existed. Engineers are expected to know what the
principles are and how to apply them. They aren't expected to do all this from
memory. The PE exam is a mostly open book test for that reason.
------
ig1
One of the fundamental principles that's coming out of a century of hiring
research is you have to evaluate candidates on the same basis - any other
approach is an invitation to bias and subjective decisions.
If you evaluate two similar candidates, candidate A on their github and
candidate B on their performance on Hackerrank then it's incredibly hard to
fairly compare those two candidates without adding subjective bias.
In practice what happens is the company goes "oh well the person with a github
clearly has more initiative". But is initiative part of your evaluation
process ? - have you ensured you've fairly allowed all candidates to
demonstrate it, or have you ended up evaluating candidates unfairly on totally
different metrics.
If you're hiring you can vastly improve your hiring process by doing two
things: (1) Adopting a standardized structured interview where questions map
directly to your needs and (2) using a work sample test (getting candidates to
do a small piece of work that resembles real-world work as closely as
possible).
------
strictnein
Not sure if it's accurate, but it seems like these inane coding challenges are
more common on the coasts. The only time I've experienced any of them was at
an interview with Amazon (for an Email Deliverability Manager role, of all
things...).
I've been tested on code, but it's never been these inane tidbits everyone
went through getting their CompSci degree. Anecdotal, I know.
~~~
Apocryphon
What cities and kinds of firms did you work at?
~~~
strictnein
Minneapolis area
The last 3-4 years have been at larger corporations. Major retailer and a
division of SAP. Haven't always been at larger corps, but after doing the
startup thing for a couple of years, the stability is relaxing.
I also had job offers from some companies that would be maybe "mature
startups"? Not sure of a good term, but around 5-7 years old, profitable, ~50
employees, etc. One of them had zero programming exercises of any type. Just
tech discussions. None had the questions discussed in this article.
~~~
lj3
I've been looking at companies in Minneapolis over the last few months, but
I've been having a hard time finding open positions to apply to. My usual
methods (online job boards) have gotten me precious few results. How do you
find companies in Minneapolis who need your services?
~~~
strictnein
Little hard to answer without knowing where you're at career-wise and what you
do, but here goes. I haven't been looking for about two years now, and I don't
know if I have any unique insights here, but when I did look there was a
couple of avenues:
\- Job boards: Mainly indeed.com, to be honest. Lot of recruiters on both, but
they do a pretty good job of indexing real job posts as well. I think that's
where I found my current position.
\- Targeting specific companies. Got my previous job this way. If you're
looking in and near Minneapolis itself, Best Buy, Target, US Bank, United
Health, Ameriprise, etc are almost always hiring. So are Medtronic, 3M,
Ecolab, etc, but they're not right in Minneapolis and depending on where
you're at might be quite a drive. If you see a job listing by a recruiter and
it mentions Richfield, MN it's almost certainly Best Buy (like this one -
[http://www.indeed.com/cmp/Palnar-Inc/jobs/Ui-
Developer-c059f...](http://www.indeed.com/cmp/Palnar-Inc/jobs/Ui-
Developer-c059f8967494e689) ) or US Bank (which is actually using about 25% of
Best Buy's HQ now). Best Buy hires a lot of their front end devs as
contractors, so if that's what you're interested in, you probably won't find a
listing on their own website. I was a Front End contractor there for 18
months. Not a bad place really, although the front end dev contractors are
definitely 2nd class citizens. If you're looking for a job at Target, they
host (almost) monthly meetups in their pretty cool Plaza Commons (across
Nicollet Ave from their HQ). Free beer and food, some interesting talks, and
there are Target recruiters there usually - [http://www.meetup.com/Skyway-
Software-Symposium/](http://www.meetup.com/Skyway-Software-Symposium/)
\- Recruiters. A lot of junk here, but there are actually some decent ones out
there who aren't complete idiots. Turning the "Looking for a job" flag on in
Linkedin was enough for me (just make sure you turn off notifications for your
network).
Anyways, hopefully that's helpful (not sure if it will be). Unfortunately, I
can't be more of a help directly as we're not hiring at my office currently (I
think we just filled our latest openings).
------
capote
I think it's perfectly reasonable for interviewers to ask scientific and "non-
practical" questions.
1\. If they just went by open-source contribution and prior experience, the
pool of "qualified" people would be immense. You need some way to narrow them
down, and it's fine for a company to pick their way, be it CS questions or how
handsome someone is (joking) or how easy they are to talk to and interact with
(charisma). It's not just about pushing code--lots of people can do that.
2\. Questions like these are not totally unnecessary. Even though you won't be
dealing with CS questions regularly at work, they still show that you put the
effort in to learn them, and that you can think critically and on the spot to
solve problems.
I don't think hiring is _as_ broken as people make it out to be. Just learn
the science and study up on it a lot before... I even bought a book that is a
summary of common CS problems that interviewers ask. It's not a big deal for
me to just read it up for a couple hours a day for a couple days before my
interview. Good companies are looking for people who are ready to put a lot
more effort in than just brushing up on Dijkstra's algorithm.
Note: One of the greatest things I learned from 5 years of undergraduate
school has nothing to do with coding or science. It's the ability to just shut
up and get some work done. Even if it's hard, unnecessary, or it's difficult
to understand the motivation behind being assigned it, it's a useful ability
(for growing professionally) to just crank out some work when you're told to
do so. Many times, it takes doing the work to understand _why_ you should do
the work. Then that lightbulb turns on and you realize how much you've
benefited from learning Dijkstra's algorithm and applying it to something;
it's pleasant.
------
greatemployee
I sympathize with the author. I have been through this as well. I'm still
going through this, really.
I've been rejected many times. And every time, I come away from the process
annoyed and disappointed, but certain that I would have been useful to them
had they hired me. I research companies thoroughly before going into
interviews, and don't waste time interviewing for positions that I don't think
I'd be interested in / qualified for.
I also have decent GitHub activity, handful of open source projects that
demonstrate my abilities. When I started my new job search I assumed that this
mattered, but in my experience it really doesn't. I still get asked extremely
basic questions that I'd hoped my GitHub would eliminate. In some instances
the company that rejected me had some open source projects, and it made me
feel better about myself to see their poor code quality.
Nevertheless, I am also starting to have doubts about the industry. I've
wasted a lot of time on take-home challenges, introductions, technical phone
screens, on-site interviews, etc. to be rejected without explanation. As an
introvert, it's all very exhausting. Why should I, as a computer programmer,
have to be an amazing socialite that my colleagues would like to vape & play
air hockey with? I just want to work on interesting problems. I'm not
stimulated by extravagant team lunches or interrupting meetings to play with
the company dog. I'm not stimulated by fancy windows and games and snacks and
toys. I'm happy to have technical discussions all day long, but I really don't
want to work in a frat house.
I feel like there's a lot of pressure from the industry to be someone I'm not.
Also, it seems like the Joel Spolsky idea about only hiring exceptional
programmers (at the expense of risking a merely /good/ hire) has seriously
penetrated the industry, making the system highly risk-averse in terms of
hiring. I feel like no amount of prior job experience or open source work will
make a difference. Every time I interview, it's a clean slate, and if I don't
nail _everything_ it's a certain no-hire. Even if I did well in prior
interviews with the company, they simply won't risk it. I would really like to
know what the reasoning is, but they never provide feedback.
I will say that I've been hardened by the experience. I'm better at pitching
myself, making appointments, talking to people in a structured way,
preparation. I think if any startup founders lack experience as sales(wo)men,
there's plenty of opportunity to dial-in your skills by pretending to be a job
candidate strictly for practice.
------
splicer
Whenever I interview someone, I try to follow these principles:
1) Simulate a real work environment. This means a dev machine with full access
to the web. One thing I'm looking for is how good the candidate is a finding
information they don't know.
2) Customize the questions for the job at hand. A software tools dev is a very
different position a firmware dev. I wouldn't, for instance, expect a firmware
dev to know much about regular expressions. And I wouldn't expect someone
interviewing for a scripting job to know much about alignment on ARM.
3) Test your questions on coworkers and friends. You need to get a baseline.
Is there enough time to answer the question? Are people coming up with wide
spectrum of solutions, or do you keep seeing the same response over an over?
Are there parts of the problem that people find unclear?
------
shawn-butler
... I really wish companies would be more transparent about their candidate
rejection reasons. From this day on, I was even more disappointed — both with
myself and tech hiring process — rejection, rejection, rejection. It honestly
feels as if I am a complete failure and an unhirable[sic] candidate...
Companies simply cannot give a reason for rejection. It is a "fake/legitimate"
legal liability HR says exists opening the door to discrimination lawsuits.
My advice is never interview at a company at which you do not have some prior
professional introduction (network, friend, foaf, etc). These people will be
able to give you the real feedback on why you were or were not hired.
Some recruiters with longstanding relationships at the companies they are
placing at will also be able to find out, but may or may not be honest with
you.
------
kkapelon
4 years have passed and nothing has changed
[http://www.unlimitednovelty.com/2011/12/can-you-solve-
this-p...](http://www.unlimitednovelty.com/2011/12/can-you-solve-this-problem-
for-me-on.html)
------
drinchev
Wow! As a person that interviewed other people for front-end developers, here
in Berlin, I would say that I will probably offend half of the candidates if I
ask them to code on a whiteboard.
Not to mention that I would feel offended if I'm asked by a hiring team to
solve complex logic task while visiting an office for a first time.
Usually what I do as an interviewer is to select a bunch of questions out of
[1] github frontend developer interview questions and make a productive
conversation, by asking for opinion on different ways of writing front-end
code.
1 : [https://github.com/h5bp/Front-end-Developer-Interview-
Questi...](https://github.com/h5bp/Front-end-Developer-Interview-Questions)
~~~
ddebernardy
Still, you'd be surprised by how may devs can't do a fizzbuzz. Even amongst
the competent looking ones.
------
20andup
“Never memorize something that you can look up.” \- Albert Einstein
------
jaredcwhite
This is why I refuse to participate in tech industry job interviews. Thus far,
I've managed to get enough work in a freelance capacity mostly through
referrals and my personal network to avoid having to go down that route. I
think it's the height of hypocrisy that tech companies complain that they
can't find enough good candidates and how hard hiring is, yet the absurd
processes they use actually turn off some good candidates who just aren't
interested in playing the game.
Kudos to the author for being so forthcoming about his experience. Maybe if
enough programmers start making a big stink about this problem, something will
actually get done about it.
------
beaubouchard
Interview questions are not pass or fail. They are just there to gauge you're
ability to problem solve and function under pressure. I hated interviewing,
but disliked conducting an interview even more. The problem is people act so
antagonistic when an interviewer challenges their ability, but realistically
your character is whats really under scrutiny.
Having a great resume and stellar github is why you get the call back, an
inability to conduct yourself in a professional manner is why you didn't get
the offer. Especially in newyork, a medium post from an employee could affect
stock prices, you can't have a lose cannon working for you.
------
Tomte
With some helpful nudges you should be able to do a simple BFS. Still, not a
very fruitful interview question, IMO.
What's bugging me about the author is that he dismisses everything that
doesn't have direct relevance to the position.
Projects get finished and you still want to work there. Projects get
reshuffled and you're placed elsewhere. Your role in the organization changes.
If an interviewee showed such a myopic view of his future work I wouldn't be
thrilled. He basically says "let me show you that I'm a one-trick pony", while
the interviewer tries to ascertain his capabilities across several potential
jobs.
------
HillaryBriss
I truly appreciate the OP's honest, detailed accounts of recent interview
experiences. Thanks for writing this.
~~~
serg_chernata
Just chiming in to say I agree. Thanks for being brave enough to vocalize
these things. I'm not even on author's level and that is very concerning.
------
mrdrozdov
I think you may benefit from a change of narrative. Evidence from your
interviews (specifically the Vimeo interview) suggests that your potential
employers have a mixed perception about your skills and experience. I
certainly believe you're capable of being a productive engineer that a company
will value, but it still may take some searching to find the right fit. One of
the benefits of leaning a little more on your network than using recruiter
requests is that it increases the probability of finding the right job.
------
TaylorHu
Life is a video game. Well really a series of minigames. Some of the minigames
aren’t as fun as others, but you have to pass them to move on. Right now
you’re on the ‘get hired as a developer’ minigame. You beat that minigame by
memorizing things like Algorithms and Data Structures.
Yes it’s stupid. Yes it’s not something you’ll ever actually do on the job. No
it’s not a real indicator of your actual programming ability. But it’s what
you have to do to beat this part of the game and move on.
And, yes it sucks, but it’s not THAT hard in the grand scheme of thing.
Basically what’s happening is someone is saying “we’d like to hire you for a
job that pays significantly above the national average, is safe, low stress
and generally pretty easy when you think about it. All we ask in return is
that you brush up on some things that you have already had to learn anyway.”
I would also argue that it’s at least partially about seeing how driven you
are. Everyone knows that you’re probably going to get asked Algorithm and DS
questions in an interview. There are literally several very popular books
entirely dedicated to that fact. So you can either have a self-centered,
egotistical, “I don’t think I should have to know this and I know better than
everyone else so I am not going to learn it” attitude, or an open, eager “I
really want this job and I know they will probably ask me some of these kinds
of questions, so if I have to take a week to brush up on these concepts I am
more than willing to do so attitude.” Which do you think makes for a more
attractive potential employee?
------
ojbyrne
"...almost as if they were looking for a reason not to hire me"
Essentially that's what is going on. Easier to exercise your biases when the
default is "don't hire."
------
maxxxxx
When I interview people I usually ask what they have done and let them explain
to me why some things were done in a certain way, what alternatives they had
thought about and so on. When I can have an intelligent conversation the
candidate usually is a go, otherwise not. I just want to know whether they can
think straight or just repeat memorized stuff.
If you know your stuff you usually can separate bullshitters from good people.
This has worked pretty well for me so far.
------
mirekrusin
Couple of years ago one of London companies did it well IMHO, after little
chat about few technical things (which looked more like Friday night chat in a
pub with colleagues than anything else) they said there's computer in the
corner, here's a problem (it was to use macfuse to implement in-memory virtual
filesystem with basic file ops) - I was left with computer, with internet
connection, I could browse whatever I wanted, nobody was looking over my
shoulder etc. Even though macfuse was a bit crap at that time (kernel would
sometimes panic so i had to reboot machine few times) and I never used macfuse
before - it still felt like there was no pressure. After that quick chat about
written code and next meeting was with CEO about the salary etc, all smooth.
Since then I think one of the best approaches is to come up with work related
problem, leave person to solve it with computer, keyboard, internet etc. with
no time limit (if candidate can't solve the problem, they will give up and
just say it after 2h or so). Quick chat about the code afterwards will tell
you in 1 minute if person understands it and didn't copy pasted solution etc.
------
spenuke
Kind of tangential, but I'm wondering: if he is unable to implement BFS in a
reasonable time, how was he able to implement Math.pow over the phone? Would
this have been a Math.pow that didn't account for fractional exponents?
I spent a few minutes trying to recall how it would work and I couldn't, and
it seems like a fully working Math.pow is a little complex for a gatekeeper
question – or maybe I just forgot the trick.
------
good_sir_ant
I dunno... it's frustrating, but really, you can learn some valuable stuff
during those few hours. I have had some interviews that certainly haven't been
positive, but they have been instructive or rewarding in some way. Not
necessarily even relating to code. It teaches you something about them, the
industry, and more importantly, about yourself.
~~~
tehwebguy
Author learned that hiring is broken.
~~~
good_sir_ant
This isn't a fact set in stone. These are objective observations. It
completely depends on the goals of those involved. Even in 'bad' interviews,
there is an argument that there's value there. Is efficiency trending upwards
or downwards in building our professional relationships? It's Impossible to
quantify from these anecdotes.
~~~
js_badboy55
"Even in 'bad' interviews, there is an argument that there's value there."
You must have lost your mind.
------
Mysterix
>If you are going to test my knowledge, at least ask relevant questions for
the role.
Even for a front-end developer, I think that algorithms matter, because
developers have to understand what they do.
And the OP's solution in O(N2), as well as the other one with hash maps, seem
quite bad (it can be done trivially in O(Nlog(N), and optimized to reach O(N))
------
plafl
I think that the kind of interview you get tells a lot about the person that
is interviewing you. I have been interviewed by professors and PhDs, and I
have worked with them too, and never they expected anyone to remember some
specific knowledge from several years ago. Hell, I spent more than 5 years
working on Kalman filters and I don't think I could code the algorithm without
having a look at wikipedia (I always forget the formula for the 'K' matrix). I
remember taking Udacity's course about robotics and when Sebastian Thrunn
appeared on the video and said he always forgot the formula too a tear dropped
from my eye. If someone makes you that kind of specific technical questions my
guess is that they lack enough qualification to better assess you, I don't
care if they work in Google, Facebook or whatever.
------
ljw1001
I don't want to pick on any individual response, but the amount of close-
minded - and arrogant - replies on this thread is pretty sad. The OP has many
valid points. I've interviewed hundreds of candidates - some well, some not so
well - and been interviewed many times. I've had four offers in my last five
interviews, so I'm not bitter about the process, but I do think most interview
processes are far more amateurish than the people they're trying to weed out.
Interviewing should be about finding a fit between a worker and work that
needs to be done. The best predictor of that is past success doing similar
work. It's not about imitating Google's process, and except in increasingly
rare situations, it has very little to do with academic computer science.
And there is never a need to treat anyone rudely. So don't.
------
Grue3
I'd rather solve programming puzzles all day long, but every time I do an
interview I get asked incredibly specific questions about a particular
technology that can only be remembered by rote memorisation and can easily be
Googled. That is, if I even get to the technical interview part.
------
clueless123
What kills me is when you go to the trouble of interviewing , do ok, don't get
the job and then... get called to interview for the exact same job 1 year
later! I mean.. something must be wrong on a (recognizable name) company that
does not fill a position for 1+ year..
~~~
scotty79
I got a job a year later. Interview was very different. Company was growing.
It was same position but they were hiring for that position constantly and
over this year I think at least 10 people were hired for this position. At
least that was the rate at which they hired when I was finally working there
and participated in interviews as senior dev. (no algo puzzles, the only trick
questions were about strange things one encounters when doing JS).
------
onion2k
_If a 960+ days GitHub commit streak doesn’t prove it, then I don’t know what
will._
crontab -e
30 9 * * * cd /mycode && git add . && git commit -m "Woo!" && git push
service crond restart
Ta da!
~~~
j_s
Agreed: GitHub commit history timing metadata means nothing.
[https://github.com/gelstudios/gitfiti](https://github.com/gelstudios/gitfiti)
------
rafiki6
I share a lot of the author's sentiments and frankly a lot of the tech
interviews I've had were terrible and I've also been on the other side of the
table and made great hiring decisions based on conversations about past
experience rather than grilling the interviewee. BUT at the same time, I think
if we want to change the state of affairs software development and engineering
needs to actually standardise what the body of knowledge that's essential to
the job is, create a testable credential around it and make sure your
candidates pass like in other engineering and tech disciplines. That's really
the solution.
------
educar
Ok, here's a pro tip: never go to tech interviews unless you know exactly what
you are getting hired for. If the recruiter cannot give you this information,
they you know this is what is in store for you. This is a game - some are good
at it and some or not. If you are not good at this "puzzle" interview game,
then simply don't bother since they are just demoralizing and a complete waste
of time.
The best approach to getting hired (especially if you know you are good) is to
reach out via your personal network. Get in via contacts and recommendations.
Always keep pushing your existing coding profile at every point of
interaction.
------
riot504
I interviewed for a different position at a company 2 months ago in Seattle.
Had 3 phone interviews, then got called in for an on-site interview which I
had to fly to requiring me to take 1.5 days off of work. I get there ask them
if this goes well what are the next steps, they proceeded to tell me that I
would need to do a take home assignment that would take a week to complete and
if that went well another on-site interview.
Is that really necessary?
I was going to turn down the position in the end due to cultural differences.
In the end I didn't get the position due to lack of technical proficiency
though I was only asked behavioral questions.
Waste of time.
------
Taylor_OD
Tech recruiter in Chicago here.
So many factors go into hiring someone. Often it comes down to little things
that have nothing to do with someones ability to do the job. Maybe a
particular member of the team really didint like you or the manager and you
went to the same high school and you have a connection.
It's crazy how often I will have a developer flat out rejected after a
technical screening from one company only to go to another company who loves
them and everything they do.
I believe the biggest misconception is that just because someone COULD do the
job means that they will or should get the job. A lot of intangibles affect
the final decision.
------
soham
Context and disclaimer: I run a bootcamp for technical interview prep:
[http://InterviewKickstart.com](http://InterviewKickstart.com).
Your frustration is understandable. But you also have to ask and understand
how our industry has come to this point. There are concrete reasons for it,
and despite this process not being the best, it's the least evil when hiring
is done at scale.
The process is here to stay. If you want to work at some of those companies,
don't overthink it. Just prepare for interviews. It'll also give you a
refreshing perspective to software development.
------
coderKen
I really do know the feeling of no feedback. I agree that hiring is really
broken, only 2 months back I went on various interview rounds for a Front-end
position and couldn't quite understand how an Algorithm would help one with
CSS floats. I think I was lucky to interview with a Startup that really knew
what they wanted and all I had to build was an app. I got the job and I love
the job, I don't think I've ever been more in love with my job like this.
PS: The startup's not American, American startups have an inflated ego.
------
Xyik
No offense, but not knowing BFS is kind of a red flag, even if its for a
front-end position. It's the most basic graph / tree traversal algorithm there
is. And you when you work with the DOM on a daily basis and use libraries that
traverse for you its a good idea to have a basic understanding of whats going
on under the hood. It's like saying you're a good programmer but not
understanding basic concepts about memory management and whether things are
stored on the stack or on the heap.
~~~
tptacek
If I took an interview with a random developer at your firm, drawn at random,
not including you, and I spontaneously asked them to implement Djikstra's
shortest path algorithm from memory, what percentage of them would be able to
do that? Djikstra is not only basic and extremely simple, but it's also an
algorithm that everyone who takes graph theory --- or really, computer science
at all --- learns.
I'm guessing 10%.
~~~
Xyik
They all got through the interview process so I'm pretty confident about 80%
of them would be able to do it and 100% of them would be able to implement
BFS.
Also yes it's a basic graph algorithm everyone learns, but its inherently much
more complicated than BFS which is a simple traversal. It's like bubble sort
vs radix sort ... which makes this kind of a loaded question.
~~~
tptacek
Now, I didn't say BFS, did I? :)
I expect they can all do BFS, because your interview process apparently
requires that.
~~~
Morgawr
The parent was talking about BFS, it's not exactly clear to me why you're
asking about Dijkstra's. The two things are entirely different and, as the
parent said, it's akin to asking bubblesort vs radix sort.
~~~
tptacek
My point is that they are not entirely different; both are academic, simple,
basic applications of the kind of graph theory freshmen learn. Described in
terms of a heap, Djikstra is barely more complicated than BFS.
~~~
Morgawr
BFS is far from academic though, it's a very common tree/graph traversal
algorithm when you want to traverse in-order, like propagation of events in a
UI, or printing contents of a nested data structure for debugging purposes, or
searching for the top-most element in a tree that meets your criteria so you
can insert a new child subtree (very common operation in nested GUI). Hell,
it's not even such an alien concept for a web/frontend developer...
~~~
tptacek
I mean "academic" in the sense of "basic". SPF is one of the most fundamental
problems in applied graph theory.
------
sheriff
Here's an O(N) solution to the `findSum` problem in Ruby:
def findSum(array1, array2, sum)
complements = array1.map{|x| sum - x}.reverse
i = complements.count - 1
j = array2.count - 1
while i >= 0 && j >= 0
return true if complements[i] == array2[j]
if complements[i] > array2[j]
i -= 1
else
j -= 1
end
end
false
end
------
onmyway133
To be honest, your voice is a bit aggressive. I like open source as much as
you do. Stars on GitHub repo does not necessarily mean we're skilled or
clever, but it means that project is necessary to many people. You look for a
job, but they look for the correct employee. I don't really like to interview
with a company that I don't feel belong to. And if I do, I will focus my time
on it
------
aregsarkissian
When you go on interviews you should be interviewing them as well. So for
every question they ask you should ask them one as well. If they ask you to
code up something them you should ask them to code up something to see if they
qualify as a group of people you would like to work for. This might not go
well at some companies which should be sign that you don't want to work for
them.
------
marme
I find it funny how many people dont realize the "your next interviewer is out
of office so we are going to end early" is code for were have already decided
to reject you so we dont want to waste any more of our employees time
interviewing you. No company schedules a set number of interviews then decides
to hire someone without doing every one of those interviews
------
master_yoda_1
I don't have any problem with coding question as I enjoy doing that. But what
piss me off is that going into google with referral is a piece of cake and
even if I do good in interview I can't get an offer. I know couple of guys who
don't even do coding and can't write a BSF but they get into google apple and
facebook with referrer. This referrer sucks.
~~~
fjgla
As far as I know referral is just a guarantee that you will be called back
after they see your CV. It doesn't guarantee you getting hired. I've referred
plenty of people and a lot of them never got hired or even failed the
screening phone call.
It just means "hey, try out this guy" and they won't be throwing away your CV
into the pile of hundreds of thousands of CVs they get every year. You still
need to go through everything like everyone else.
------
aluminussoma
The only way out of this mess is to start and bootstrap your own company.
Hiring is broken, therefore hire yourself.
~~~
zeemonkee3
Tell that to someone who has rent and loans to pay, medical needs or family to
feed. Bootstrapping takes savings/investment and a LOT of time before you see
a penny of profit.
~~~
aluminussoma
I am totally empathetic to this. I did not intend for it to be a trite
statement. I'm in the same boat.
Not all ventures require lots of savings. (Time? Definitely). It is
conceivably possible to try and bootstrap something outside of working hours.
The original author was able to devote much time to GitHub projects, so it's
not a stretch that the author might be able to bootstrap an idea.
~~~
zeemonkee3
Sorry, didn't want to come off too harsh. I've gone down the bootstrapping
route before and it's very, very hit and miss. Actually mostly miss.
The skills required to build a product or service people will pay you a
livable wage for are not the same as those needed to write an open-source
library. I've seen people with terrible coding skills make successful products
with a "Rails for Dummies" book on their lap as they go (they hired pros later
to clean up the mess), and I've seen excellent coders flounder with terrible
ideas and business execution.
Personally I'd love to jump off the hiring hamster wheel, but realistically -
outside of consulting (which has its own share of nightmares) - I don't see
that happening even if I do come up with the perfect idea in the shower
tomorrow.
------
FLUX-YOU
I see these same algorithms/concepts show up repeatedly in interview rants
posted here. At this point, if I'm going to interview, I'm just going to cold
memorize them over a week or so and then adapt to the specific interview
questions. It's just a ritual that needs to be done at this point.
------
shade23
I am talking from personal experience here: __Hiring is broken __is a
statement that is often the result of long intensive (and multiple ) interview
processes which is met with sheer frustration.I went through that, cooled down
a bit and came to a conclusion which I would like to share :
Hiring is Broken: Yes it is,but not the process,but the people. When you
interview in a big company(especially a profitable one) you need to realize
they are not looking for a typical skillset. Big (for profit) companies tend
to keep their softwares behind closed doors. Hadoop was open sourced by google
atleast a year after internal usage ,the same goes for Bazel(Blaze internally)
.These were open sourced because they had much better versions of the same
software that were consumed internally.When you reach such levels,performance
factors are as important as
\- ability to ship fast \- writing clean/testable code \- and all the other
things that we programmers/coders are good at.
I am not saying that we aren't good at optimizing. But they are not really
looking for the horde. This could also explain poaching college professors/PhD
candidates for jobs.They need to people to push boundaries,not implement/build
things from existing technologies.There is only so long that you can spend in
a domain without having the need to extend that domain which you have been
working in the past 20 years for.
Regular start-ups and other companies need a product.They need to make a mark
in a field by pleasing the customer who would be using their
products/technologies and who are looking for a service alternative mostly.
That is my justification for such interviews.This changed the way how I even
handled interviews.
If I am asked these algorithmic questions,I generally smile and ask them if
they want a Computer[1] or someone who can use a computer.I Immediately steer
the conversation to what do they expect from me and explain to them what I can
do.Often this clears the air and helps me(stress on the __me __) decide if I
would like to join them. What you need to realize is that its you who is
joining them.The impact that the organization will have on you is normally a
much larger of magnitude in comparison to what you will have on the
organization. The environment you end up working in will mould you in ways
that you cannot anticipate.
PS: There are a couple of people who do the job hunting for the massive salary
hikes and those sort of factors.I guess none of my arguments apply for them .
[2]:[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_computer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_computer)
------
JSeymourATL
> When I asked the Vimeo’s recruiter for a feedback — no reply, haven’t heard
> from him ever again. Feedback is too much to ask for these days, apparently.
Corporate feedback is mostly BS. And the rare line from bozo recruiters offer
little of substantive value. It's safer for him to say nothing at all.
------
Cpoll
I'll preface by saying I completely agree with the sentiment of the article.
However, I was taken aback by the author's refusal to try to solve BFS. To me,
it feels like someone should be able to reinvent it relatively easy - that
it's akin to a linked-list, palindrome or FizzBuzz question.
------
jarsin
I always ask where they use those algorithms in their production systems.
The typical answer is that they don't :)
------
linux_devil
Hiring is broken , but not everywhere , its hard to set standard rules for
technical hiring across different organizations , as every organization have
different needs. I had similar experience in few organizations but not all
organization are same.
------
DeadReckoning
I've been asked to solve such tough questions during some interviews. Getting
asked to solve really complicated text search problems using suffix trees in a
45 minute phone screen for a junior Android dev position at a small startup
lol
------
malbs
Just went through this process from the POV of employer.
The risk of choosing the wrong person is so great, that it's often better to
not choose anyone. If there is any doubt what-so-ever, it's better to not make
a a hire, it can be too damaging to a team, manager, company.
I've tried so many different "coding interview" scenarios. But I found the
best one was a real task that a real staff member would be expected to do,
extract it out into its own example, and before I talk to someone, they
present their solution to the task, and the only thing we talk about, is their
solution. If they can dissect and discuss their solution eloquently, and
reason about trade-offs, short-cuts, talk about what they may have done
better....
Of course, it can also be a simple case of, "is this person an asshole? are
they going to rub my team up the wrong way? yes? fuck them."
~~~
joesmo
"The risk of choosing the wrong person is so great"
I assume you don't live in the US or if you do, please elaborate because in
the US there are virtually no such risks with at-will employment. It's so
incredibly easy to fire people in the US that such an idea is actually
ridiculous, yet people keep bringing it up all the time as if it's real.
~~~
mkozlows
Legal barriers are not the only barriers. Many companies don't work with a
quick-fire model. If you, as a hiring manager, hire a person and then fire
them within a month, you're going to need to sit down with your manager and
explain what happened. If you do it twice, they're going to have serious
doubts about whether you're qualified to be a manager.
Plus, it's sociopathic: If someone has a job already, having them quit that
job, start working for you, and then get fired and end up on the street
because it didn't work out... man, that's a jerk move. The manager owes it to
the new hire to be confident that they'll work out.
------
PaulHoule
This is just an indication of what will happen to you if you get the job.
------
atjoslin
Why don't more people do, "We're not 100% sure if you're the right fit, but
we'd like to find out. We'll pay you to work with us for [2/4] weeks."
~~~
jaaron
For most companies, the organizational cost is too high.
There's a cost (in terms of time & money) to onboarding someone, integrating
them into the company and team, and getting them to be productive. That's a
reasonable investment for a long term gain, but for a short probation, it
rarely pays off for the organization. The churn itself just isn't worth it.
Moreover, it means the candidate is in an uncertain state. Should they keep
interviewing if it doesn't work? Should they change their lives and relocate?
Etc.
------
josefresco
Wondering if the "cover your ass" is a factor in these hiring decisions. If
you're the guy/gal who hire a new engineer, who turns out _not_ to know their
stuff, your ass is probably on the line. Making engineering candidates jump
through hoops might provide them with a level of protection against future
reprisals.
While I don't interview for engineering jobs, we do bid on municipal contracts
which are dominated by this concept (cover your ass, hire the big guy). A
different animal indeed, but in a employment hierarchy where employees are
held accountable for performance of new hires, it seems similar incentive
would exist.
------
nouney
"How many people can actually write BFS on the spot, without preparing for it
in advance?" A lot of people. You should too, even if you're just a front-end.
~~~
kkapelon
What about the maze solving question?
Should all front-end developers be able to create a maze solving algorithm on
the spot, during an interview, under time pressure?
~~~
tyingq
I would at least offer something back, like a loop that randomly chooses
left/right, restarts loop if dead end, exit loop if solved. Then verbally walk
through how you might improve on it incrementally.
------
websitescenes
Look for a job at a startup. Way easier to get in the door.
[https://careers.stackoverflow.com/](https://careers.stackoverflow.com/)
------
zappo2938
"Write a maze solving algorithm" I just solved that in less than 3 seconds.
Here is the solution in a Fiddle[0] and the discussion on Stack
Exchange.[1]Sorry, I'm too busy solving problems which haven't been solved yet
to bother with problems that have been solved.
[0]: [http://jsfiddle.net/5g7se8qL/7/](http://jsfiddle.net/5g7se8qL/7/)
[1]: [http://stackoverflow.com/questions/16173259/javascript-
maze-...](http://stackoverflow.com/questions/16173259/javascript-maze-solver-
algorithm)
~~~
LaurenceW1
You wrote that in 3 seconds huh
~~~
tgeo
To be fair, I think he meant he "solved" it by googling and finding a stack
overflow link. He wasn't being literal (I thought he was as well at first).
------
ted12345
I wonder if this has to do with your personality, how you behave under
pressure, and how you react to not knowing the answer to something.
You seem more than capable enough to get a good job but in my experience,
interviewers are looking to see how you react to being stumped. If it's
anger/frustration/clamming up then that's a turn off for a lot of employers.
They're looking for more than the right answer.
~~~
p4wnc6
What if he is merely introverted, and responds well to pressure when there is
not an awkward, immediate social situation? There are lots of excellent
programmers like this, you know, and also very few workplaces that actually
benefit from lots of real-time interpersonal communication (as opposed to
cargo culting that from startup bullshit).
------
eachro
I think this is the wrong sort of attitude to have towards hiring. Maybe
interviews are suboptimal for finding good talent. Whatever. But if you want a
job and you already KNOW the sort of tricks and games go on for these
interviews, then why not just play the game? Do the adequate interview prep
and land the job. It's that simple.
------
halis
Rapid Development and Code Complete by Steve McConnell. Those books are
prescient.
------
AndyMcConachie
If interviews require this much effort people should get paid for their
effort.
------
kogone
a quick fix would be to have feedback of your interview be mandatory if
requested.. kind of like a FOIA request
------
paddy_m
I hired Sahat as an intern three years ago while he was an undergrad. It was
one of the best hiring decisions I have ever made. He was productive
immediately and our (small) team felt the loss when he went back to school.
This guy is good and gets stuff done, ask people who have worked with him.
I wish Sahat had reached out to more of his network before responding to
random recruiters. Tech interviews as Sahat experienced them are broken, but
tech hiring is slightly less broken especially when you leverage your network.
*note this is the same comment I made in the other thread. I stand by it. [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11579757](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11579757)
~~~
swayvil
I'm seeing a lot of "reaching out" in this thread. Is this a new thing, like
"passion"?
~~~
eric-hu
No, quite the opposite. It's an old trick for job searching. It doesn't
originate in tech. It's one reason why people go to networking events in their
industry.
My impression of what reaching out means today is a chat over coffee, lunch,
or less preferably a phone call.
~~~
lj3
What frequently gets looked over is who you're reaching out to. It doesn't do
you any good to reach out to a rank and file developer. You need to reach out
to (is seduce a better word?) somebody with hiring authority in order to
bypass the ridiculousness.
~~~
eric-hu
Personally, I don't mind going through an interview process. I actually find
it strange if a company makes an offer without much of a technical interview,
which has happened before.
------
tacos
I do not think junior people realize what senior people see when they look at
your GitHub work. Without exception, the crappier the _oeurve_ the more the
candidate wants me to look at his or her GitHub.
Read a single user's Tweets going back a month and even your best friend
starts to look a little nuts. Do it with their git history and you'll
sometimes get a very different impression of their work habits, too.
In my experience, these services tend to make people look worse, not better.
But I can't always give the benefit of the doubt when I'm making a critical
hiring decision.
------
dimino
I've been in interviews where those stupid "I have three balls and want to
guarantee the ball I pick is red" questions get asked, and what I've noticed
is if they _want_ to hire me, I can just take vague guesses and they'll help
me along, but if they _don 't want_ to hire me, they'll sit coldly, watching
as I flounder about. By the time I've sat down in the chair, a lot of times
the person hiring has already made a choice. I'm not charismatic enough to
reverse their choice, but I'm not antisocial enough to disqualify myself if
they already like me.
The thing I learned about applying to jobs last time I went through this is
that if your primary goal is obtaining a source of income, you need to send
your resume to ~10 people a day, every day, and go on every possible
interview, and do every possible thing people ask you to do.
You'll still lose a lot of jobs to these techniques, because they're
effectively random, but since it's random, your odds of success increase with
volume. Eventually you'll hit a position that you _do_ just randomly happen to
know the algorithm they're looking for, or they don't ask CS theory questions
(I'm self taught, so theory is a weak point for me as well), and you can talk
about/demonstrate your _actual_ job qualifications, rather than some contrived
talent that's entirely irrelevant to the position.
------
twreactistricky
Tech hiring sucks, and the people who continue to do such a bad job at it seem
to wear their behavior and tactics as a mark of pride.
There are a few companies that make it a point to mention they avoid the kind
of interviews you've been getting. Perhaps try to seek them out rather than
rely on recruiters
------
gcb0
when they don't give you feedback, most of the time it means "you're great but
we also found John OK for 1/3 of the price"
------
cloudjacker
Hey Sahat, one problem is the small sample size any one person can get during
the interview process, so I recently did this process and in one month I
embarked on interviews with 15 companies and progressed to various stages. The
recruiter was Hired.com and I wrote about it here:
[https://gist.github.com/ericlw/16b55e038028e1e4768e](https://gist.github.com/ericlw/16b55e038028e1e4768e)
Because Hired.com prescreens companies and have a limited pool of both types
of companies and types of candidates, it is easier to get a better sample size
based on type of role.
I primarily talk about some of the arbitrary offers, instead of the interview
process. But you might find it interesting too.
------
elcct
Not sure what is the problem. If you don't like the hiring methods of those
companies (I agree those methods are retarded), then you are not their target.
Look for something else. There is plenty of this for everyone.
------
notliketherest
If you don't like Google's hiring process, apply somewhere else. There's
plenty of viarety among a whole host of different companies large and small.
The reality is Google gets hundreds of thousands of candidates a year and has
these processes in place for a reason. The interview machine at Google spans
the entire company and everyone is expected to participate and give detailed
feedback at each stage and "rank" a candidate on a 1-4 scale. You have to have
some sort of normalization in place when you're interviewing at that scale,
it's not enough to say "oh, this guy invented homebrew or this guy has some
cool open source project, let's fast track him." It's unrealistic to think
that. A lot of people complain that Google spends too much time on "things
that don't matter like nuances of algorithms" but I'd disagree with that
point. Google's not in the business of hiring "frontend devs" or "node js
devs" theyre looking to hiring well rounded software engineers that would be
expected to fit in any role given to them org wide. And honestly, it's not
hard to pick up a data structure book and a "software engineer interview
questions" book and study for a few weeks prior. You'd probably do pretty
well.
~~~
metaphorm
I'm not sure why you feel the need to apologize for and defend google's
interviewing practices.
they are entitled to interview in whatever way they choose, but you should
recognize that it is a highly idiosyncratic process that has been widely
criticized by many many many people.
~~~
notliketherest
I can't reply to your other comment but I worked there several years ago. Am I
brilliant? No. Did I study my ass off and understand the company's hiring
practice in and out BECAUSE I WANTED A JOB THERE? absolutely. I didn't go in
with some attitude like this guy in the article and resign myself to failure
because of preconceived notions.
~~~
tehwebguy
You are explaining the problem exactly!
Author spends their time building software; Hired Google employee spent their
time studying to win the interview game.
~~~
notliketherest
You realize that "winning the interview game" consists of what's called
"practicing"? Do you expect to succeed in life by winging it? I'm really taken
aback by how many people think they're entitled to passing job interviews
without preparing for them.
~~~
GFischer
The problem is when the interview has absolutely nothing to do with the day to
day work the hired employee is expected to do.
So someone who wants to be hired has to spend a lot of time and effort
learning stuff that are only marginally useful - knowledge isn't bad per se,
but it might be a bad allocation of resources.
I'm not saying that it is so in Google's case, only that I've seen and
participated in interviews where questions had no relevance to the job
description.
------
dang
HN doesn't bowdlerize, so the first thing to do with the title is take out the
stars. But "Fuck you I quit" is linkbait of the kind that the HN guidelines
ask submitters to take out of titles, so we've replaced that bit with a phrase
from the first sentence.
------
askyourmother
When I hired a plumber for my heating firm, I put her through a hazing
interview, tested her knowledge of Maxwell relations and thermodynamic
equations. Oh wait, no I didn't. As she has been a plumber for years, so we
recognised her skill and experience and cut to the chase.
When I hired a programmer for our doomed to die VC life support funded fart of
a project, we put her through numerous rounds of comp sci bingo and algorithm
hell. Why? Not sure. Everyone else does. I mean, hiring in IT is shit, why
should we break from the industry norm? Why should we want to care about the
candidates? Right? I mean if Google can do it...
~~~
wdewind
I frequently hear this basic point: "Software interviews test algorithms and
data structures that are so _clearly_ not relevant to the work being done and
soooo theoretical I don't understand why interviewing isn't better???"
I used to believe this myself, mostly because I didn't have a strong CS
background and was still successful at carrying out software projects at a
relatively high level.
The truth is, as I learned more CS I learned that these things are actually
pretty crucial. Not necessarily for executing one single project, but for
building a large system that scales reasonably? Absolutely. I spent years
reinventing the wheel of basic data structures and algos simply because I did
not know them or how to use them.
Bottom line: I would not want to work with the me of 5 years ago because I
wrote shitty code while proudly proclaiming that CS was theoretical bullshit
that didn't matter in web development, and I think many people who make these
types of claims really just don't understand how applicable a good CS
foundation is.
I'd agree that ideally you want some kind of work sample as well. Either an OS
contribution, github or even small project written specifically for the
interview. You can't ask someone to write enough code on an interview that you
really see what happens when they have to structure a real project (ie:
thousands of lines) or work within a real system (ie: millions of lines). This
is where CS foundations in interviews have their relevancy.
~~~
mkohlmyr
I think you are both taking extreme sides of this argument when there is a
very reasonable middle ground
Should a programmer you hire be able to reason about CS problems? Yes. Do they
need to be able to write out the best possible solution to a problem on a
whiteboard within 15 minutes? No.
The white-board sessions only really serve to intimidate people who aren't
good public speakers, think better with some time and peace and quiet, or
simply haven't bothered to memorize code they never have to write from
scratch.
Legitimately bad candidates could just as efficiently be eliminated by having
a casual discussion about a CS concept that relates to the job description.
~~~
wdewind
I totally agree with this. In one of my other replies I mentioned the concept
of having multiple paths for a candidate to be successful through, and I agree
that "whiteboard coding" should not be the only way to prove you are smart and
competent.
------
morning_star
You know what other type of people are not very pleasant to work with? Nerds
who think they can trace a psychological profile of a person based on a blog
post.
~~~
dang
Even if you're right, an escalating personal attack is exactly the wrong way
to respond. Please don't do this here.
A better reply might simply have pointed out that there isn't enough
information to draw such a conclusion.
We detached this subthread from
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11581129](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11581129)
and marked it off-topic.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Does working at home make you more productive? Yes (with data)! - ojbyrne
http://blog.rescuetime.com/2009/11/18/does-working-from-home-make-you-more-productive-yes-with-data/
======
mark_l_watson
I have mostly worked from home for the last 12 years. There is a real trick to
it: identify projects that are mostly self contained with well defined
deliverables; avoid projects that require tight coupling with the activities
of other workers.
The biggest drawback is missing the fun of 'white board time' but adequate
time on the telephone (or Skype for video) helps.
The advantages mostly involve being able to schedule work time for when you
are feeling (and being) most productive. The ability to take a break (even if
it is only doing 20 minutes of yard work, running an errand, playing a musical
instrument for a few minutes, talk with family and neighbors) is often just
the thing to later help get into a good work flow.
------
callmeed
Sorry to state the obvious but the "data" doesn't prove anything.
Working at home might make the Rescue Time team more productive, but it
definitely isn't true for me, and probably many others.
Come work at my house, guys ... my kids show you what distracting is all about
~~~
wglb
Ah, you have identified the problem.
I worked at home when my kids were born, and I solved the problem by having a
separate office with a door. When the door is closed, I am "not home".
But then the trade off is when you do take breaks, you visit with them
multiple times per day. Also, there were times that we would put a blanket on
the floor in my office and the kids would nap there.
~~~
callmeed
Yes, that's one of the problems for me ... my home office doesn't have a door
... it's just a bonus room on the first floor. In fact, the doorway is so wide
I can't even get a baby-gate in there to keep the little one from rifling
through my books or camera gear
------
unperson
I've worked from home for a few years now and from a productivity standpoint
its wonderful. For me at least, the ability to work from my desk, sitting in
my chair, with my lightning, with only distractions that I create (such as
music), all while avoiding any time-wasting commute is huge for my ability to
focus and get stuff done.
Despite productivity benefits, the major drawback of working remotely is a
lack of social interaction beyond telephone/e-mail/im, which can be very
taxing emotionally because physical cues are hugely important to
communication.
------
jorleif
I've worked from home for a year but now I'm back at an office again. Working
from home seems very good for concentration, but I missed discussions with
other people. It felt like after some time I would run out of energy to do it.
This might be different if one was "doing his own thing" and be very
motivated, but I think the ideal for me would be working from home (or
somewhere else than the office, as I now have kids at home) for a couple of
days a week, and then be at the office for the rest of the week.
I think to make telecommuting really work, one would need to get a good
understanding of the intangibles involved. An antipattern of telecommuting
would be spending more time in meetings during the days in the office, to
"catch up", communicate or whatever. Rather, one would need to somehow make
the people working from home feel like they are socially part of the working
environment. Maybe having some kind of non-meeting social settings during
office days would work. Perhaps a long lunch or dinner or something?
------
lurkinggrue
I wish I was at home right now. Coworkers nearby keep having conversations
about things that make me facepalm.
I would be working better if I didn't have talk of reality shows forced into
my brain when I am trying to concentrate.
------
niels
I'd love to try rescuetime, but their linux client was working last time I
tried. Don't remember what the issue was exactly though.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: Have a Happy Christmas - vinnyglennon
======
harianus
You too
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Managed Kubernetes Node Groups for EKS - groodt
https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/containers/eks-managed-node-groups/
======
verdverm
Still waaaaay behind GKE and never likely to get closer.
GKE supports multiple versions of nodes and today began offering release
channels to further simplify version management. There pool and node limits
are far greater. Why does AWS require yet another CLI "eksctl" other than to
vendor lock-in?
I still have yet to see anything on EKS that can match GKE.
~~~
groodt
EKS has certainly been lagging behind GKE for a long time. I think that this
release acknowledges that and closes the gap somewhat.
To address your other comments: * EKS has automatic updates on the roadmap,
which I imagine is similar to release channels on GKE. * GKE Limits. Yes, they
are much larger than EKS, which I guess matters a lot if you have a
requirement to scale horizontally to thousands of nodes. * eksctl isn't
necessary to use EKS, but they do encourage it. I personally use Terraform and
kubectl. It's essentially a wrapper over the AWS CLI. For GKE you would use
the gcloud tool. For EKS you can use the AWS CLI or eksctl. It is an open-
source tool built by Weaveworks btw: [https://eksctl.io/](https://eksctl.io/)
~~~
verdverm
I think the gap is growing still.
They've had auto updates for nearly two years. Release channels enable you to
pick a minor version and stay there.
Other nice features from GKE
\- gVisor is a checkbox
\- istio is a checkbox
\- knative is a checkbox
\- Cloud Run is a checkbox
\- Custom CPU/Mem/SSD/GPU/TPU (this is more EC2 v GCE)
\- extra hardened OS
\- automatic credentials for GKE from Cloud Build
\- service account binding between IAM and k8s
\- Anthos!
\- Labels for understanding costs and multi-tenant billing (internal or
external)
GKE is free compared to the nearly $150 / month AWS fee that no one else is
charging.
Oh, and the Google Cloud runs on 100% renewables. When will AWS be able to say
that?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
French officials accuse US of hacking Sarkozy's computers - rpm4321
http://thehill.com/blogs/global-affairs/europe/268995-us-accused-of-hacking-into-french-presidential-computers
======
mtgx
US just loves making friends.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Array Vs. Linked List - neduma
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/166884/array-vs-linked-list
======
DenisM
Reposting my own answer here, maybe it will spark a discussion:
Suppose you have an ordered set, which you also want to modify by adding and
removing elements. Further, you need ability to retain a reference to an
element in such a way that later you can get a previous or next element. For
example, a to-do list or set of paragraphs in a book.
First we should note that if you want to retain references to objects outside
of the set itself, you will likely end up storing pointers in the array,
rather than storing objects themselves. Otherwise you will not be able to
insert into array - if objects are embedded into the array they will move
during insertions and any pointers to them will become invalid. Same is true
for array indexes.
Your first problem, as you have noted yourself, is insertion - linked list
allows inserting in O(1), but an array would generally require O(n). This
problem can be partially overcome - it is possible to create a data structure
that gives array-like by-ordinal access interface where both reading and
writing are, at worst, logarithmic.
Your second, and more severe problem is that given an element finding next
element is O(n). If the set was not modified you could retain the index of the
element as the reference instead of the pointer thus making find-next an O(1)
operation, but as it is all you have is a pointer to the object itself and no
way to determine its current index in the array other than by scanning the
entire "array". This is an insurmountable problem for arrays - even if you can
optimized insertions, there is nothing you can do to optimize find-next type
operation.
------
neduma
A Very detailed pros and cons. Liked it.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The Anthropocene epoch: scientists declare dawn of human-influenced age - okket
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/aug/29/declare-anthropocene-epoch-experts-urge-geological-congress-human-impact-earth
======
lagudragu
Related Nature link regarding this interesting topic:
[http://www.nature.com/news/anthropocene-the-human-
age-1.1708...](http://www.nature.com/news/anthropocene-the-human-age-1.17085)
------
api
I think we can set the exact date and time. The holocene ended and the
anthropocene began at precisely July 16, 1945, 5:29 am
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_(nuclear_test)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_\(nuclear_test\))
~~~
mVChr
Ugh, can't we just use the Unix epoch? Time's already too difficult to
program.
------
InclinedPlane
I understand the sentiment of these sorts of things, but they end up coming
off as quite ignorant of history.
There has definitely been a change in the nature of mankind's relationship
with the Earth's environment, such that human actions have become a dominant
factor. However, that happened at some time during the bronze age. Humans have
been completely changing biomes and drastically impacting the environment for
thousands of years. Huge swaths of forests were cut down, much of the
remaining forests were managed, farmland and grazing lands replaced natural
habitats, numerous megafauna were hunted to extinction, etc. The difference
between the bronze age and today is merely that it's become much more obvious
how significant our impact on the world is today.
~~~
woodandsteel
You are right that the Bronze age produced huge changes. However, most of the
planet, like the oceans, the rain forests, the Arctic, and the deserts, stayed
basically the same. Now great changes are happening everywhere.
~~~
InclinedPlane
I don't have time to fully answer this, because it's a big topic, but I think
you missed what I was saying.
There's this zeitgeist that mankind was largely at the mercy of nature until
the industrial age, but that's based primarily on our foggy view of history,
not on reality.
During the neolithic and bronze ages, humans cut down and/or "managed" most of
the forests of the world. Read that again, it's accurate. There's almost no
such thing as a primeval forest that hasn't been touched by human hands
anywhere on Earth, nor has there been for a very long time. In Europe there
was a significant reduction in forested land during the bronze age. Not only
were forests cut down to make room for planting, but the forests that were
left standing were managed for timber et al and for game hunting. In the
Americas and Africa, for example, it was quite common for the locals to use
fire on huge scales to modify the environment, either for slash and burn
agriculture, or for forest management (e.g. to make game hunting easier). The
image of the primeval American frontier is one that is based on a recently
depopulated post-Columbian exchange New World, which hides the massive extent
of the impact that the native americans had on their environment.
This is true for the rain forests, the arctic, the deserts, etc. Which saw
massive changes due to the presence of humans. They affected rates of
desertification, they became the apex predators in many cases, driving out
others, and they extensively modified the local environment (as in the case of
rain forests).
We see such things as untouched by human activity primarily because we don't
know any better. Our knowledge of ancient history is limited due to lack of
record keeping and the difficulty of piecing together data from just artifacts
(if we are lucky enough that the artifacts survived and were found during a
research dig, which requires luck stacked on top of luck stacked on top of
luck), and we often lack the context to know the difference between what a
landscape that has seen the impact of pre-industrial human activity looks like
and what a truly pristine landscape looks like. There are a lot of areas which
people think are natural but are the result of the activities of prehistoric
humans (such as many of the unforested regions in Scotland, which were
deforested and made into farmland but have lain fallow for centuries and
reverted to a semi-wild state, though not a pristine natural state).
The difference today is that we can more readily see the changes happening
directly, because we have much better record keeping and can compare
observations over recent decades and centuries. And, of course, the pace of
change has been accelerating, with impacts on new things. But the _start_ of
mankind having a dominant role in the environment happened a long, long time
ago.
Of course, there are folks who have a vested interest in denying this fact for
a variety of reasons. Environmentalists (and I count myself one, for the
record) might find this fact somewhat disconcerting, because if mankind has
been a driving force in environmental change for 5 thousand years, maybe that
implies that its nothing to worry about, right? I can understand wanting to
avoid having that discussion, but it's no excuse for denying the reality. And
indeed, sometimes the impact of humans on the environment has had extreme
negative consequences in the past, on human beings and on the environment,
even going back thousands of years (but, of course, such things can be hard to
suss out because of that pesky spotty historical record).
~~~
woodandsteel
That's a good reply, and you clearly know much more about this topic than I
do.
------
socmag
Let's skip forward a few years and look for the HN post regarding when
precisely the dawn of the AI-influenced age occurred.
Since I'm pretty sure it already happened, and quite some time ago, depending
on your metric.
~~~
swalsh
I'm not sure it's the same scale. AI has the potential to change human lives
quite a bit, even expand humanities reach. Our actions since 1950 though have
altered the earth's climate. Steel comes in 2 forms Pre-1945 steel, and new
steel. In less than 100 years we have left an unmistakable mark on the planet.
It affects everything. AI will be most impactful to humans.
~~~
hyperbovine
In case you are curious:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-
background_steel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-background_steel)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Calvin and Jobs (comic) - nickb
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3191/2723090810_6501c93ae2_o.png
======
Prrometheus
I hope that I am so famous and successful one day that people find it amusing
to lampoon me using classic cartoon remixes.
~~~
adnam
"Calvin and Prrometheus" doesn't ring, but you might pass as an extra in
Asterix and Obelix. The sky is falling on our heads!
------
aston
Boo for killing the almost homophone by inserting "Steve" in the title.
------
rewind
I think I've made $0.03 since I started typing this.
~~~
adnam
Don't stop keep going!
------
Harkins
I'm trying to figure out why Calvin is even used, and all I can get is the
lame almost-ryhme in the title. Calvin could be anyone or no one, all the
character does is stand there and say "What's the punchline, Mr. Jobs?"
~~~
thwarted
So you think it could be like <http://garfieldminusgarfield.net/> ?
~~~
icky
Jobs minus Hobbes minus Calvin?
(Hell, Hobbes minus Calvin would be trippy enough, since Hobbes is the
imaginary friend...)
~~~
benjamincanfly
Not imaginary.
~~~
icky
(First off, let's be clear that I'm using "real" and "imaginary" in the
context of the fictional world of the comic strip).
The portion of Hobbes that is _real_ is just an inanimate stuffed toy tiger.
Hobbes as a motile, living, thinking being exists entirely as a figment in
Calvin's mind, projected into the object of the toy tiger. So Hobbes the toy
is real, while Hobbes the being is imaginary.
~~~
benjamincanfly
I prefer to think of the motile, living, thinking Hobbes as a real being that
most people can't see.
------
convolver
I find it mildly amusing that just the other day my XKCD-Cautionary edit post
was killed off. Perhaps it was too close to home, or in too poor taste.
Nevertheless, Calvin and Jobs, utterly hilarious!
~~~
dandelany
Nah, it just wasn't funny.
~~~
convolver
Oh, I'm glad the master of humor decided to chime in here, thanks for setting
everything straight.
/me shrugs off bs
Your insulting comment doesn't have a thing to do with why it was killed off
in the first place.
I'm also fairly surprised you aren't railing on about how nickb's post is
pulling hackernews down into the terrible dredges of fark! We wouldn't want to
minimalize our up mods now would we?
------
geuis
Meh. The first comic was mildly funny. Not so much on the others.
~~~
mechanical_fish
It's got a better hit rate than 90% of the college newspaper comics I've ever
read. Not that that's saying much.
------
lg
don't forget the other ones:
[http://www.flickr.com/photos/35923610@N00/2722267025/sizes/o...](http://www.flickr.com/photos/35923610@N00/2722267025/sizes/o/)
~~~
ComputerGuru
Thanks. It's actually much funnier than the one in the OP.
------
tpiep
Original Flickr page:
[http://flickr.com/photos/35923610@N00/2723090810/in/photostr...](http://flickr.com/photos/35923610@N00/2723090810/in/photostream/)
~~~
benjamincanfly
The Flickr image is actually just a photo of the latest issue of Mad Magazine.
<http://macenstein.com/default/archives/1547>
~~~
Tichy
Are you saying Mad Magazine still exists? Interesting.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
What every programmer should know about memory - haskellito
http://lwn.net/Articles/250967/
======
klochner
Does every programmer really need to know the physics behind dynamic ram?
What every programmer _should_ know is the latency of the various memory types
(cache, RAM, virtual) and their respective sizes.
Here's a nice graphic:
[http://duartes.org/gustavo/blog/post/what-your-computer-
does...](http://duartes.org/gustavo/blog/post/what-your-computer-does-while-
you-wait)
~~~
mahmud
Not every programmer needs to be a hardcore systems hacker; you can ignore the
low-level details and lead a healthy productive life. But me, personally, I
get a massive inferiority complex if I don't dive into Nasm and GDB every 2-4
months. It would pain me not to know useless things about obscure stuff.
Yesterday I was prancing through reddit when I followed this link:
<http://pvk.ca/>
My stomach sank when I realized I wouldn't have the time to "follow along"
(i.e. waste the day reproducing his results, checking facts, researching and
following links) because I am about to start a lead-dev/PM position and need
to work on SaaS and EA stuff. So I closed the tab and moved on to focus on
what matters. It wasn't until 1AM that I realized what I have done; aarongough
sent me a link to his toy prototyping language and I have just spent 5 hours
reimplementing it in Lisp, in the process re-digging into the Self papers!
(and discovering warts, but that's another story.)
I am an Adderall prescription away from leading a healthy productive life,
without unnecessary knowledge about _stuff_.
------
pacemkr
Nonsense. What happened to abstraction?
To suggest this as recommended knowledge to all programmers is actually making
me angry.
My education is in Computer and Electrical Engineering, while I mostly work
with high level languages building software for the web. I've traveled up and
down the abstraction ladder out of curiosity -- that explains the dual in EE.
I've enjoyed it all, but there is zero reason for a programmer to know almost
anything from that page. You can make phenomenal software without ever knowing
what a transistor looks like on paper; and that's the whole point of progress.
If anything, we should encourage higher level thinking and discovery of more
expressive languages and tools.
~~~
Groxx
To me, the mentality that CS should require (near) EE dual-citizenship reeks
of "we had to learn it, so you have to too". I highly doubt that knowing how
to construct a logic gate from silicon will help me program one iota better.
Heck, even including what the logic gates _are_ and how to combine them to
make RAM, for instance, is valueless. So my CPU is mostly NAND... this changes
things for me how? If you're going into digital electronics, then by all
means... but CS != digital electronics.
~~~
scott_s
I maintain that to work well at abstraction level N, you need a good
_conceptual_ understanding of abstraction level N - 1. All abstractions leak,
and you need to be able to handle it.
~~~
vecter
So by induction, you need to learn N - 2, N - 3, ..., 2, ... 1? I
wholeheartedly disagree. By that logic, why stop at transistors? Let's get
down to the physics of how transistors work, or hey, atomic physics.
~~~
Groxx
Ehhh... only partially. If you need to work well _at_ level N-1, then yes, the
inductive proof works. They only mentioned knowledge _about_ a level lower
than you're _working_ at, though.
~~~
vecter
My bad, I read it wrong.
------
delano
If it's something every programmer should know then there should be a summary
that every programmer will actually read.
~~~
tav
Grep the articles for "conclusion" and read the articles on "what every
programmer should do..." in semi-detail. HTH.
------
ramchip
It's a cool link, but it gets reposted a lot, last one being 5 days ago:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1496377>
That link is a PDF/scribd version. I find it easier to read than a webpage.
~~~
toadie
Yeah, but every time the discussion is different though. To me, most of HN
value is in comments.
------
Groxx
If anyone is interested, a PDF of the entire thing is available at:
<http://people.redhat.com/drepper/cpumemory.pdf>
Drepper's site has a bunch more articles, too:
<http://people.redhat.com/~drepper/>
------
lispygem
_The former is much faster and provides the same functionality. Why is not all
RAM in a machine SRAM? The answer is, as one might expect, cost._
But since the density of transistors is pushing the cost of everything down
how expensive is expensive? Does it make sense to product a SRAM-based laptop
with 512MB of fast memory?
~~~
terminus
Well, part of the faster-than-DRAM is because the cache is limited in size.
Addressing 512 MB (and keeping it close enough to the CPU) would require a lot
more address lines/multiplexing and CPU die real estate [1] that it would be
prohibitively expensive and not as fast.
It'll still be faster than DRAM so you still have a point.
[1] In this die-shot (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Barcelona_die.jpg>)
of AMD's Barcelona (4 core) all the regular grid like pattern is the cache
(total is about 4MB + 512KB or so.) That takes about half the chip's real
estate.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Dave Winer: An open Twitter-like ecosystem - aaron-lebo
http://scripting.com/stories/2012/07/25/anOpenTwitterlikeEcosystem.html#theresBeenALotOfDiscussionLatelyAboutWhetherAForpayOrAdsupportedModelWorksBetterWhatsBeenOverlookedIsThatTheresAThirdOptionUseTheWeb
======
michaelpinto
I wish more people would embrace what Dave Winer is saying here and run with
the ball. The current web as we know it has benefited from an open ecosystem:
everything from the servers running Apache to web pages serving up HTML. I see
a real long term danger in closed walled gardens like Facebook and Twitter,
they're just not healthy.
~~~
bntly
But there are celebrities and that hot girl from high-school within that
walled garden.It sucks and i wish the products were better and more open but
the bar for entry is mostly user draw, and T&A is what draws them in..
*edited for spelling >_>
~~~
mvzink
You just made me think of something. The common folk may as well continue
using Twitter, and you're right about the bar to entry. We few, the vanguard
of openness and reliability, can use approaches like Dave Winer's to provide
an open, durable parallel "Twitter-like ecosystem" that integrates with
Twitter—and once Twitter goes away (and Facebook and Google+ and even SMS) we
will integrate with its successor—or hopefully, ideally, help create it's
successor on top of the open web. It could be a durable base for future work,
and a safety net for now.
Also: any time I consider using identi.ca again, it's with this view. Even if
it doesn't gain popularity, I can at least provide my own guarantees that it
will be around (so long as some few others use it) even when Facebook or
Twitter go away.
~~~
davewiner
You got it baby!
That's exactly the idea. It's a bootstrap. You use the systems that are in
place now to boot up the successor.
It's never either/or. You use everything that works, that has people on it
that you need to reach, as long as they welcome you.
This has been the problem with Google-Plus. They don't have an API that lets
you post to it. But Twitter does. To everyone who follows me on Twitter, they
don't have any idea that I'm not _really_ on their network. In every sense
that matters I am.
But when Twitter goes down, I keep posting, and people who are hooked in my
feed still get the new stuff.
~~~
mvzink
Good to know I got the point! :P Can I ask about your thoughts on StatusNet?
------
ammmir
RSS? DNS? camelCased JSON?
I don't know if you're going to entice many developers with that combination.
What we need is a simple protocol (not an API), maybe JSON/MessagePack based
with UDP signaling, that makes it easy to build distributed Twitter-like
services, while also reachable by HTTP. The developer experience needs to be
easy enough so that a distributed "hello world" service can be built in less
than 5 minutes. It needs to come with a cross-platform P2P server component,
and client libraries for a few popular languages. Make the barrier to entry so
low that any dev can do "apt-get install <fancy-distributed-system>" to get
the server/client bits.
The average user doesn't know DNS (username.twitter.com) as well as they do
email addresses ([email protected]) and URIs (twitter.com/username). If
this is going to gain adoption, it needs to prioritize UX familiarity over
technical superiority. Everyone has an email address, so use that for
identification, but don't clutter people's inboxes by using them to transport
or store app data.
Make it super easy to federate with existing walled gardens by providing open-
source implementations of server components so Twitter, Facebook, Google, etc.
can get up and running quickly.
~~~
Feoh
This has always been Dave's problem. He's a Big Idea Guy, but his
implementations often end up being somewhat less than fully thought through. I
say this as someone who has been following him for way more years than I like
to think about (I wrote a bunch of Frontier code WAAAY back in the Classic
MacOS days :) As always though, he's thought provoking and gets other people
discussing better ways to do it, which I think he entirely approves of.
------
liotier
Why reinvent the wheel when XEP-0277
(<http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0277.html>) and OStatus
([http://ostatus.org/sites/default/files/ostatus-1.0-draft-2-s...](http://ostatus.org/sites/default/files/ostatus-1.0-draft-2-specification.html))
have already accreted quite a bit of thinking about what open microblogging
could be ?
------
Create
<https://identi.ca/doc/source>
~~~
_pferreir_
You read my mind. identi.ca is a really good idea, it's a pity that it hasn't
managed to catch up with Twitter in terms of user base.
~~~
shampoo
..and why is that ? Wouldn't what Dave Winer is speaking of have the same fate
as identi.ca ?
~~~
riffic
in my mind, identi.ca is a red herring. What really matters is the platform,
StatusNet. This is a software package that, kind of like Wordpress, can be
installed on your host allowing you to run your own microblog service.
This package, and the underlying OStatus protocol, is where organizations that
want to retain control over their own reliability and namespace should be
looking.
~~~
shampoo
I agree entirely. But identi.ca is the most popular implementation of
status.net and it hasn't taken off. identi.ca, status.net, etc, need to offer
something else that twitter.com, other then Freedom.
~~~
riffic
I think that's a marketing problem, rather than technical.
~~~
msutherl
It's a product problem, rather than technical.
------
dasht
"3. To identify users -- please use DNS."
Using DNS to identify users is unwise, in my opinion, because it means that
people won't own their own on-line identities -- they'll have to rent them and
for real money, too. And if some users are assigned a sub-domain on a shared
domain, their identity won't be portable.
I think it is worth doing a little extra work to make a user name system that
doesn't have those problems.
~~~
mapgrep
Inventing a new identity system that features 1, portability and 2, end-user
price of $0 is surely possible, but surely more than "a little extra work."
DNS has the virtue of being here now, being tested and refined over multiple
decades, and offering a choice between subdomains for free or portability for
a nominal annual cost. It's not perfect but it's good.
~~~
dasht
To avoid building in a dependency on DNS does not require that the identity
system problem be fully solved, first. It only requires ensuring a good
abstraction barrier before too much code propagates that depends directly on
DNS. For example, perhaps, URIs.
~~~
pyre
Why can't the usernames be like email addresses?
send email to [email protected]
=> lookup example.net
=> pull MX record
=> route email to example.com
Looks like a SRV record[1] could be used for this.
[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SRV_record>
~~~
dasht
"Why can't the usernames be like email addresses?" [in the sense of querying
DNS to find them].
In this context we're talking about what it takes to avoid relying on DNS
(because DNS is a centralized, highly politicized system). Your solution would
still rely on DNS.
~~~
pyre
A system which relies on DNS, but in which anyone can setup a node seems
better than a system that relies on DNS but only has one centralized node
(Twitter), no?
In a truly decentralized system, you're not going to be able to have readable
unique names without collisions. Why? What happens when the network splits,
then people on either side of the split setup the same username. How do you
rectify this when the network rejoins? How do you know that the network has
split vs. a node going offline (if you wanted to do something like shut down
new usernames until the network was whole again)?
~~~
dasht
"A system which relies on DNS, but in which anyone can setup a node seems
better than a system that relies on DNS but only has one centralized node
(Twitter), no?"
The concern here is that whoever is currently leasing the domain name has
authority over users' identities. A better system would let users own their
identities outright.
"In a truly decentralized system, you're not going to be able to have readable
unique names without collisions. Why? [....]"
This is a well explored topic. A good place to start might be to look up
"Zooko's Triangle" and then go forward from there towards various ways people
have figured out to deal with such problems. (Zooko's wasn't the last word.)
------
chris_mahan
Uh, DNS is too hard for most people. So is maintaining a web server. If you
want any kind of reliability you're going to have to spend 10/year on domain
name, 15/year on good DNS server, and 10/month on web hosting. That's $145/yr.
Users can use twitter and facebook for free.
Besides, the general public can't even use HTML well, so what chance do they
have with xml?
The other compelling thing about twitter is that 140 characters thing. Blogs
enable people to train-of-thought-rant for pages before making their point (if
at all). Tweets, on the other hand, force people to think and condense before
writing. That's an awesome feature for readers. Also, twitter makes it very
easy to follow and unfollow.
~~~
icebraining
I think his suggestions are for the people who are planning on writing a
Twitter-like open service: <https://join.app.net/>
~~~
pwpwp
Except app.net isn't open in any of the ways Winer describes.
~~~
icebraining
App.net isn't open nor closed, because it doesn't exist yet.
------
dasht
"4. A user is a feed. So the name points to a feed."
What if the user wants to have more than one feed? Or wants, sometime down the
road, to have routable resources that are not feeds?
Wouldn't it be better to say that a user name is a user name and that a
default feed name can be automatically built given just the user name?
~~~
mapgrep
This makes the "Twitter-like" system less "Twitter-like". Don't get me wrong,
I see your point, and I can think of a technical solution (point to OPML feed
collections instead of feeds), but the further this gets from the original
popular thing (Twitter) the less support and momentum it's going to have,
imho. On Twitter it's one stream per user, and that keeps things simple. And
simplicity is a huge part of the value add of twitter.
~~~
dasht
I agree that "emulate the user==feed simplicity of twitter" is the best
counter-argument to "make the user name distinct from the feed name for
greater flexibility" position.
But here:
In twitter APIs, can't you get something like, say, a user's avatar image by
keying off the user name?
So, even on twitter, a user name maps to multiple different things -- not just
a single feed.
------
riffic
Over and over I emphasize that Twitter is not a public utility. If you're an
organization that has to get your micromessage out there, you're better off
hosting your own services.
~~~
cube13
I don't get what an "open" twitter system will have over the current one.
Unless I'm missing something, this is just RSS feeds.
~~~
riffic
What goals are you trying to accomplish using the service, be it Twitter.com
or an open alternative?
Are you just trying to post/read feeds as an individual? If that is the case
the open alternative does not provide you a benefit, and you will probably
find it less convenient.
On the other hand, what if you have many users under one org? How about you're
just a member of a division of another org, and they have many division and
subdivisions. And they really want be sure that your message gets out there,
without relying on a third party. The public relies on those messages, for
example a fire department posting about wildfires. Those are the use cases
that will probably see benefits.
~~~
cube13
But in the second case, what's the difference between that and email?
If you have the infrastructure to handle a setup like that, you should already
have an internal email server.
EDIT: After your edit, I think I've found where the disconnect is from my
perspective. The problem with this method is that discovery(arguably the most
important part of what Twitter provides) is still reliant on a third party's
index.
From a user's perspective, Twitter provides 3 key services from one URL:
1\. A unified feed for everyone you follow(This proposal also does this).
2\. An easy way to post/host content(This proposal does not deal with this).
3\. An easy way to discover new people to follow(This proposal also does not
deal with this).
Out of those three, I would argue that the second and third are the most
important. The problem isn't getting the message out to people that are
already subscribed with Twitter, email, or a hosted website. The problem is
discovery, and giving people an easy way to actually find the information that
they're looking for.
The only way to handle discovery on this way is to have some hosted, third
party method of searching through the users to find the ones you want to
follow.
~~~
riffic
The difference is, email isn't (usually) public. A status message is there,
for anyone to see it, like a tweet.
~~~
look_lookatme
If a message is posted in public and no one sees it, does it matter?
People won't be using this new decentralized service. They'll be using
Twitter. I guess you can feed into Twitter, but the last mile is still
Twitter.
------
unimpressive
Hacking together a microblogging system out of RSS and Atom with a little
network glue is fine for a prototype.
But in the long run you won't beat Facebook and Twitter by merely replicating
their functionality.
~~~
davewiner
Beating them is not in the cards.
If you look at tech industry cycles the leaders don't get beat, they run out
of room to grow, or evolve into something less monolithic.
Hegemony is always short lived. Once you get on top of the heap it's usually a
short time before there's a new generation rising up.
~~~
smoyer
You HAVE been reading Orson Scott Card! ;) But you're right and for a very
good reason. The barrier to entry has dropped to the point where a single guy
in NYC (or elsewhere) can challenge the status quo.
------
gbog
This article is a bit confusing, I'm not sure it is stating its view in the
simplest way. Trying to explain that view to someone else I'd do like this:
Twitter, Facebook and the like should be like emails: if you send me an email
from hotmail I can read it on gmail or any other mall client. I should be able
to subscribe to friends, interesting people or other social content provider
and consume this comment from the client of my choice. Something that Google
reader was not very far to provide.
Wrote something about this view sometime ago:
<http://www.douban.com/note/174513094/>
------
maxmzd_
We need to treat our data like we treat our email. Define the common
attributes comprising data within a particular application and define how to
access that data (through an API). Come up with a common vocabulary for all
data (crowd-sourced based on the current stewards of that type of application)
and tie those calls into user identity providers (again, built around the
common attributes of a user identity). Every interaction between apps and
users goes through the user to collect permissions. Permissions are based on
signals gained from all other interactions that have passed through the user
identity provider. Signals like how often you interact with the app or user
requesting the data, which topics you've interacted on previously, etc.. Data
is still stored on separate app providers, but we now have simple access. The
app provider uses the signals to build permissions specific to their
application. Users can transfer their data from one provider to the next
easily since all of the data definitions have been translated (assuming the
apps are similar in nature).
More here: <http://GoPalmetto.com/>
------
maxw3st
Great article. Loaded with links to things I need to learn and many good
points.
------
rwhitman
If someone can put this together in a package that consumers can wrap their
head around, I think the open twitter movement would have a shot.
Probably the best candidates would be all the Twitter client apps that are
getting burned by their API lockdown
------
akkartik
_"If you want to read what someone says on Twitter you have to use Twitter.
Not a big deal it turns out."_
I have to go to all the trouble to maintain my webserver and setup DNS, then
go to twitter to read others? Why is this not a big deal?
------
Raphael
You could support existing RSS readers by putting the entire microblog post in
the title field. And if you're worried about it being truncated, then
duplicate it in the body.
~~~
aaron-lebo
Was confused myself as to why he doesn't do this. He mentions not having
titles being an issue in Google Reader, but the same issue is apparent if you
try to add the rss feed of his linkblog in Firefox; you just get a bunch of
links with no details.
Do RSS titles have character limits?
~~~
smacktoward
No, neither RSS nor Atom specify a maximum number of characters for TITLE
elements. Which isn't to say that particular readers/clients don't truncate
them, of course, just that the specs don't say they should.
~~~
aaron-lebo
Interesting. So does anyone have any suggestions, technical or otherwise,
other than "twitter posts don't have titles" that he does it this way?
------
rocky1138
Here's a link to his linkblog.
<http://static.scripting.com/myReallySimple/linkblog.html>
It's great, except it's completely unusable due to it being a huge download of
a page full of disparate links with no organization other than by date.
The trick is not in writing something like this, it's in making the
information aggregated and easily organized.
------
smallegan
He mentions the lack of a notifications system. Isn't there room in this open
system for a ping type notification service or group of services? The benefit
for such a service to be free would be that they could aggregate the data and
mine it as twitter does. Then clients could fail back to polling should this
service not be available.
~~~
icebraining
pubsubhubbub
A simple, open, server-to-server web-hook-based pubsub (publish/subscribe)
protocol as an extension to Atom and RSS.
Parties (servers) speaking the PubSubHubbub protocol can get near-instant
notifications (via webhook callbacks) when a topic (feed URL) they're
interested in is updated.
The protocol in a nutshell is as follows:
\- An feed URL (a "topic") declares its Hub server(s) in its Atom or RSS XML
file, via <link rel="hub" ...>. The hub(s) can be run by the publisher of the
feed, or can be a community hub that anybody can use. (Atom and RssFeeds are
supported)
\- A subscriber (a server that's interested in a topic), initially fetches the
Atom URL as normal. If the Atom file declares its hubs, the subscriber can
then avoid lame, repeated polling of the URL and can instead register with the
feed's hub(s) and subscribe to updates.
\- The subscriber subscribes to the Topic URL from the Topic URL's declared
Hub(s).
\- When the Publisher next updates the Topic URL, the publisher software pings
the Hub(s) saying that there's an update.
\- The hub efficiently fetches the published feed and multicasts the
new/changed content out to all registered subscribers.
The protocol is decentralized and free. No company is at the center of this
controlling it. Anybody can run a hub, or anybody can ping (publish) or
subscribe using open hubs.
To bootstrap this, we've provided an open source reference implementation of
the hub (the hard part of the protocol) that runs on Google App Engine, and is
open for anybody to use.
<https://code.google.com/p/pubsubhubbub/>
~~~
aaron-lebo
I've run across pubsubhubhub before (geez that's hard to write), and it seems
like a really useful implementation.
What I wasn't sure of is when he mentions polling is that instead of pshh or
would that work with it?
~~~
icebraining
Polling always works, but if the feed and the client are PSHB-enabled, then
they can use it.
------
quadhome
There's more than one person named Alice, and there's more than one person
named Bob.
Like others, I'm allergic to DNS for identity. Yes, the UX is atrocious (see:
OpenID).
But, what about getting away from a global namespace?
Let people refer to their friends however they want! Use marked up links to
reference the underlying feeds.
------
tete
There are also a great number of similar projects.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributed_social_network#Com...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributed_social_network#Comparison_of_projects)
(Not all, but some of them follow a similar principle)
------
lecha
"6. I think the part that's hard to scale is the notification."
Why not email (SMTP/IMAP)? Deployed, standardized, widely supported.
------
squiggy22
I can't help but think that Google dropped the ball when deciding to be a
closed centralised platform. Being open IS the marketing.
------
codgercoder
let's call it Wintter
------
alpine
It's fairly obvious to me that an open system, that incorporates Twitter-like
functionality as a subset of a greater whole, could take over this space in
less than 12 months, leaving Twitter/Facebook/* as AOL-like also rans. Winer
appears to have functional solutions for many of the parts needed to deploy
this ecosystem. What is missing is a spark of genius to fire people's
imagination, such that they flock to the new tool(s) with an eagerness not
seen since early days of the www when Mosaic _hinted_ at what could be done. I
can't believe that all that is missing is a healthy dose of Mad Men marketing.
Maybe that is the missing ingredient?
~~~
_pius
_It's fairly obvious to me that an open system, that incorporates Twitter-like
functionality as a subset of a greater whole, could take over this space in
less than 12 months, leaving Twitter/Facebook as AOL-like also rans._
Big statement. How do you get critical mass when practically every journalist,
celebrity, and person you went to school with uses Twitter or Facebook and not
your new open system?
While I definitely think an open solution _could_ eventually "take over the
space" and leave Twitter and Facebook as "AOL-like also rans," it's far from
obvious to me how one would do it in a year.
~~~
alpine
It is a big statement, isn't it? I do believe it to be true, however. What I'm
positing is that the technological pieces can all be deployed relatively
easily. What is required is the 'spark of genius' that triggers mass adoption.
The hook into the new system has to be easy; it has to be cool; it has to
smart; it has to be desirable. Possibly even irrational.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Apparently Bing Is Something Of A Hit - vaksel
http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/06/01/apparently-bing-is-something-of-a-hit/
======
calambrac
I've been using Bing as my default search in FF all day today, just as an
experiment. I can't tell if what frustration I am experiencing is just due to
not being used to it, but I will say that any other time I've tried doing this
(Yahoo, Live, Ask), I've quickly switched back to Google simply because I
couldn't get my work done. The fact that it's been more than an hour and I
haven't given up on it says a lot.
~~~
froo
_I've been using Bing as my default search in FF all day today_
I must admit I've just started to do the same and am getting the same result.
I quickly added bing and its not sucking...
.. as someone who wrote off Microsoft only a few months ago and still on my
"Fuck yeah, open source! Fuck Microsoft!" high, I'm feeling a little
conflicted.
Well done Microsoft.
~~~
trezor
Not to deliberately derail the thread or anything, but if you in any way
associate using google search with promoting open-source, you are doing
something wrong. Google search is (too) as proprietary as it gets.
As for bing, I gave it a shot. After switching to the US version it was a
whole new product. My biggest complaint so far is the lack of intelligent
porn-searches :P
~~~
calambrac
The search is proprietary, but the company itself is one of (if not the)
largest supporters of open source software out there.
<http://code.google.com/opensource/>
Using Google for search makes Google money. Google reinvests a not-too-shabby
amount of that money back into open source software. Ergo, using Google search
promotes open source.
~~~
skinnymuch
Google also releases stuff by subsidizing them like crazy. Guess what happens
to people who make better products? No one hears about them because all the
techies are circle jerking themselves over the new Google product.
Sad, really.
~~~
calambrac
I'm pretty sure you're just talking out of your ass. Google has a long and
storied history of releasing things to the sound of chirping crickets (Orkut,
Froogle, Knol, Custom Search, etc.), and a lot of their services that aren't
necessarily duds certainly aren't being circle-jerked over, either (Checkout,
News, Finance, etc.)
------
callahad
Definitely not a bad option, but as Mr. Arrington says, "I’m used to Google
and I know how to find the things I’m looking for."
I honestly cannot think of a time in the past year where Google has failed to
locate sufficiently relevant information for a given query. If Google ever
disappoints, I'll definitely fail over to Bing, but those days will be few and
far between.
(And I do have a few presentation nits with Bing. I've seen a sponsored links
block inserted ~250ms after the results rendered, immediately shifting the
result positions and interrupting my skimming of the page. I can't open image
results in tabs using Chrome, and their content wrapping for image results,
Wikipedia pages, etc. feels a bit heavy-handed).
~~~
timcederman
To be honest, I've felt Google has been 'babying' me too much in the last
year. I've had part of my queries dropped, different intent inferred and weird
verb stemming applied to my searches. In the last 6 months there have been at
least a dozen occasions where I've felt the results are total crap for no good
reason.
(mind you, that's out of 15,000 searches according to my Google search
history)
There's also the general problem of too many commercial pages when you're
trying to get information, not a product. However Bing, et al, seems to suffer
from the same thing.
(eg, try finding out information about the Shoreline Amphitheatre VIP lounge
experience. There are sites out there which discuss it, but it took a
ridiculous number of permutations of search terms to finally find them)
~~~
randallsquared
Yes, one of the few major problems I have with Google is that it just changes
your query sometimes when you _really_ want what you typed, and the slight
change (adding an "s", most often, for me) swamps the results you're looking
for in a sea of unrelated stuff. Even using quotes doesn't help here, though
it should. I'll try to remember to use Bing for those kinds of queries when I
run into one again.
~~~
lincolnq
Did you try putting a + before the word? I think it tells Google "don't fuck
with this word, I want an exact match"
~~~
timcederman
Thanks! I always forget to use that, because its original use was only to
force Google to keep common words in the search query.
------
madair
There will be inevitable negatives comparisons to Google, and perhaps some of
them are right. I'm just pleased it's working well enough for me and that
there is finally now a viable competitor to Google.
~~~
litewulf
Just wondering, why is it important to have a viable competitor to Google?
Are you worried about corporate shenanigans, or a single point of failure or
something entirely else?
~~~
madair
The danger of all monopolies. I'm not trying to troll or promote irrational
fear, but I feel that the competition has been too weak.
The hegemony of a single organization which has a clearly stated philosophical
viewpoint with a desire to index all information quite simply poses risks
which others have described better than I can claim to. By diversifying those
risks I hope we can reduce the potential problems.
I'm not saying that Microsoft is the antidote, just that I am glad to see
competition. I hope there is more forthcoming.
------
noodle
i have to admit, it is surprisingly good. not better than google, but it
presents itself as a quality alternative. several steps up from live.
given some more time to chisel away at it, MS might have something which could
seriously compete with google in the future.
~~~
10ren
The results seem similar to Google. I wonder if PageRank litigation is a
possibility.
~~~
noodle
possible, but that would be one hell of an epic court case. probably wouldn't
even be worthwhile to try and jump into that. both sides would probably lose a
lot, on multiple levels.
~~~
10ren
Yes, I was thinking PR. Odd fact: Yahoo appears to have a license for PageRank
(Yahoo bought overture/goto, whose patent Google infringed with AdWords
auction). GOOG-MS might cross-license too.
------
pc
If you want to test Bing in Safari, try:
$ curl collison.ie/code/bing-safari-patch.rb | ruby
It'll replace Google with Bing in Safari's search box in the top right.
(Of course, you should read the code before running it.)
~~~
evgen
Or go get the glims safari extension so that you can add whatever search
provider you want for the search box and also pick up a bunch of other neat
safari tweaks (how I survived without the ability to undo a close tab I will
never know... :)
------
cnlwsu
I was a little excited after reading the article, alas I was disappointed when
I tried it out. Seems to do everything in its power to avoid displaying
blogspot, google mail lists, and google code projects. It didnt display as
much about me as when I searched my name on google - did not even have my blog
which has my name in the DNS :( . When I searched for dojango I was very
disapointed... "Results are included for django" could have been changed to
"Results were replaced with this search that we think you meant" To top things
off, it seems to temporarily freeze my Ubuntu's installation of FF every time
I move my mouse around the page.
------
radu_floricica
The problem with new search engines is not only how good they are, but that
google is _the_ standard. Every website who wants to be visible is google-
optimised, so it will be hard for a contender to be both original and
successful.
------
Retric
Bing seems to really like a few sites (Wikipedia, Amazon), but it's not quite
up to Google search results.
PS: Some of the differences are just funny. Retric in Google = Hacker News
profile, Retric in Bing = Slashdot Profile.
~~~
jm4
_PS: Some of the differences are just funny. Retric in Google = Hacker News
profile, Retric in Bing = Slashdot Profile._
Slashdot has been around for over a decade. It has a PageRank of 9 versus 6
for HN. I would imagine Bing has a similar metric for measuring the popularity
of a site. It seems to make sense that the Slashdot profile would rank higher.
What I think is really interesting is why Google ranked the HN profile higher.
I'm thinking freshness is weighted much higher on Google than it is on Bing.
I've done similar searches on both and while both yield relevant results I'm
more likely to see older content on Bing.
------
10ren
Nice point that there is a little google lock-in, when people have learnt how
to find things with google. It's not just the query syntax, but also that
we've learnt what kinds of answers it gets back.
~~~
10ren
Thinking further: lock-in doesn't give you much competitive advantage in comp
tech - but it does grant you a buffer against competitors. It buys you time,
to match their improvement, or even improve on them. Therefore, in tech, I
think competitive advantage should be measured in _time_ * : our good image
gives us 1 week; user inertia is 1 year; adapting to another interface is 3
weeks; our server farm speed is 6 months; PageRank is 2 months.
These times only come into play when a competitor offers something better in
some way (if there's nothing better, then these timers aren't engaged). It's
like a better product is a pressure or voltage differential, and the
competitive advantage is the resistance.
Of course, when you're ahead is the time to grow your competitive advantage,
even though it's not needed, so that you have it when it is needed. It's an
investment. The parts of the model are: the users you have; the relative
attractiveness of a competing product; and what stops your users from
switching.
Actually, I think this is just one kind of competitive advantage, and it only
covers existing users (not new ones). For a start up, it's not enough to just
retain users, you need to get them in the first place. You're better off
focusing on getting them (by increasing the relative attractiveness of your
product) rather than stopping them from switching... but Warren Buffett is
always going on about competitive advantage - what exactly does he mean?
[ * ] for half their users to switch
------
jzachary
I like Bing. It does a much better job for image search and presentation than
Google.
The thing that will make Bing competitive with Google, however, will be the
front page. Google has adhered to a simple front page with religious zealotry.
Bing, on the other hand, seems to embrace making the front search page more
useful. It remains to be seen if MS will clutter it up, but if Google starts
adding widgets and tools to the front page, you will know they are paying
attention.
------
Raphael_Amiard
I didn't like the search results. It tries to guess on what you want, and as a
techie i guess i'm more used to specifying myself what i want to search.
~~~
bitwize
Would you like them better if the Google logo were floating at the top of the
page?
~~~
Raphael_Amiard
I was refering to actual search results, for the same search, with comparison
from both search engines. I might be totally wrong, and the issue is in a good
part subjective. That's why i did put the words "I didn't like", and not "The
results are plain bad".
Implying i was just influenced by the brand, while it may have seemed clever
to you, is rude , gross ,and totally unrelated to what i said.
------
paulgb
I like the preview of the content when you hover over the result. It's
interesting that Wikipedia pages can be viewed as pages on Bing.com. I think
that's a feature that came from Powerset.
It's a reasonable competitor to Google, but I was hoping for a feature or two
that would really impress me. Everything I see so far is an incremental
improvement at best.
------
evanmoran
Personally I'm still enamored with WolframAlpha, though Bing has a distinct
edge in ease of typing=).
I realize that (for now) these sites are apples to oranges, but I would
welcome any move by Microsoft/Google to take on Wolfram. Perhaps Bing will go
this way? They have a lot of smart filtering, and the endless image search is
just fun.
------
nathanwdavis
I'm happy with it - my site comes in at #8 on it, instead of #10 on Google for
my target keywords "etf screener". Besides that though it does exceed my
expectations.
------
kwamenum86
uuuh...guys? I think Bing might be better than Google....what do I do?
------
jcapote
Meanwhile Windows continues to rot away; Remind me why they need to be so into
search again?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Child geniuses: What happens when they grow up? - MikeCapone
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/may/15/child-geniuses-prodigies
======
tokenadult
"an IQ that is, at 160, the same as Stephen Hawking's"
[citation needed]
I'm not so sure that there is an attested IQ figure for Stephen Hawking, based
on this interview with him:
"What is your I.Q.?
"I have no idea. People who boast about their I.Q. are losers."
<http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/12/magazine/12QUESTIONS.html>
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: Site That Parses “Who's Hiring?” Thread Replies for Keywords/Buzzwords - myrloc
Do any of you know of a site that does this? Something even as simple as a table organized by keyword (e.g. blockchain) and posts that include the word.
======
IlyaStam
somebody built shared this a few months ago:
[https://hnjobs.emilburzo.com/#engineer](https://hnjobs.emilburzo.com/#engineer)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: Best way to get started freelancing? - k00b
How did you or someone you know get started? Why did you choose freelancing (so I can see if I'm doing it for the right reasons)? If you could go back would you pick that career path again?
======
imsky
I got started on Freenode IRC channels - someone had a question and it turned
into a couple of years of freelance work. I went through marketplaces, but
even 10 years ago, the race to the bottom made them an unprofitable channel.
Freelancing lets you build up a portfolio of work, build relationships with
people who can give you work or referrals, solve problems in different domains
with different tech stacks, and test yourself as a sole proprietor. It helped
me get a lot of experience in a short time.
Times change and these days I would only recommend freelancing for people
starting their careers or for people who need some income quick. There are a
few issues: you usually won't be trusted to work on mission critical parts of
the business, clients care less about quality than you do, sometimes you have
to take work that's incompatible with your career goals, and price-sensitive
clients can be difficult to deal with when it comes to payment. Looking back,
I'd likely do it again, though I'd charge more and be more selective about
projects.
~~~
k00b
> solve problems in different domains with different tech stacks
I find this aspect most appealing.
> build relationships with people who can give you work or referrals > I'd
> charge more and be more selective about projects
These are probably harder to do when just starting I assume. I have near 0
tech network other than old employers. But maybe that's a good place to start
though.
Thanks for the comment. It gave me some new things to think about.
------
Jugurtha
One way to go about it is to:
\- Start a company
\- Contract with enterprise clients as a company
\- Charge appropriately
The money you can charge as a "freelancer" vs as a company is not the same.
You will be able to build a brand around that company in a way that's
different than a physical person, who may be unstable, disappear, etc.
If you go that route, please have an attorney write your contract drafts and
never sign anything without your attorney looking at it.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
How to be a Programmer: A Short, Comprehensive, and Personal Summary - hhm
http://samizdat.mines.edu/howto/HowToBeAProgrammer.html
======
aceregen
I pay my due respects to all programmers if this article summarized what you
have all went through.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: Rideshare’s obligations to notify passengers of C-19 affected drivers - hindsightbias
======
hindsightbias
Lyft: If we are notified of a rider or driver testing positive for COVID-19,
they will be temporarily suspended from using Lyft until they are medically
cleared. In this event, we will also follow guidance from the CDC and local
health officials to identify other individuals who may have been impacted.
[https://www.lyft.com/safety/coronavirus#faq](https://www.lyft.com/safety/coronavirus#faq)
Uber: We have a team available 24/7 to support public health authorities in
their response to the epidemic. Working with them, we may temporarily suspend
the accounts of riders or drivers confirmed to have contracted or been exposed
to COVID‑19. We’re also consulting with an epidemiologist to make sure our
efforts as a company are grounded in medical advice
[https://www.uber.com/us/en/coronavirus/](https://www.uber.com/us/en/coronavirus/)
One is not like the other
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
First app for audio transcription base on your mobile and speech recognition - comprobot
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/agile-dictation-audio-file/id979463309?mt=8
======
comprobot
It is a first app to let people convert the wav, mp3 which more than 3 minutes
to text!
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: Email client alternative to Nylas N1? - sreenadh
I am currently using Nylas N1 and I did see some alternatives last month. I decided to try them after I was done trying out N1. Well, now I cannot find the links and I think my browser messed with my bookmarks ;). So, kindly list the alternatives any of you are aware of. I did check all the links on http://alternativeto.net/software/n1/, but no good.
======
grinich
If you have feedback about N1, I'd love to hear it! :) You can post here or
always email me directly. (I'm the founder/CEO.)
~~~
luctus
Hi! I'm looking for alternatives too, mainly for two issues:
1) I can't insert inline images 2) My emails are not being marked as read in
server, so it's a mess when I go to my iPhone...
~~~
MagisDing
Try Canary Mail [http://canarymail.io/](http://canarymail.io/), snappy and
beautiful. And its slack channel is quite robust (not like Nylas, please
forgive me) although there only two people in its development team.
~~~
grinich
How do you think we could improve the Slack room? We currently have 2253
people there, so it's usually quite busy. It's free to join here:
[http://slack-invite.nylas.com/](http://slack-invite.nylas.com/)
(The mark-as-read issue has been fixed and we're working on shipping support
for sending with inline images. Gmail didn't have this for about the first 6
years.)
------
jharohit
I tried polymail(no imap support for months), Airmail (no link tracking or
read tracking,oddly slows my mac,lot of small bugs, UI felt sluggish), apple
mail(haha - next one), outlook (too skeumorphic on mac + too heavy + no swipe
gestures)
Went back to N1 now - so i guess i am not much help. Sorry mate.
------
thakobyan
I use Polymail and love it so far. It's fast, has a great UI and syncs very
instantly. [https://polymail.io/](https://polymail.io/)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Finding deserialisation issues has never been easier: Freddy the serial(isation) - based2
https://www.nccgroup.trust/uk/about-us/newsroom-and-events/blogs/2018/june/finding-deserialisation-issues-has-never-been-easier-freddy-the-serialisation-killer/
======
based2
[https://www.reddit.com/r/netsec/comments/8p9gqy/freddy_burp_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/netsec/comments/8p9gqy/freddy_burp_suite_extension_to_automatically/)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Brew stopped accepting custom options for packages and installing from source - ChrisCinelli
https://github.com/Homebrew/homebrew-core/issues/31510
======
ChrisCinelli
This started be a problem when I could not compile curl anymore with --with-
http2 option. See [https://github.com/Homebrew/homebrew-
core/commit/7f9bfa67922...](https://github.com/Homebrew/homebrew-
core/commit/7f9bfa679229a6837d2d8ba8a08bc6154f0ed4d4)
------
ChrisCinelli
Also:
[https://github.com/Homebrew/brew/issues/5514](https://github.com/Homebrew/brew/issues/5514)
\- No more HOMEBREW_BUILD_FROM_SOURCE
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Show HN: Socks, a super-light WebSocket wrapper - maemilius
https://github.com/chall8908/socks
======
jprince
What happens when they get dirty?
~~~
maemilius
I usually wash mine.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
RE42927: System and method for obtaining and using location specific information - caf
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=RE42,927.PN.&OS=PN/RE42,927&RS=PN/RE42,927
======
caf
Reading through the claims, the requirements for a "beacon" suggest that this
_doesn't_ read on geolocation by IP address. I'm not sure about geolocation by
triangulation from towers that don't specifically transmit information
intended to identify a location.
(As always, read the claims, not the abstract).
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Personal Reason for Hating Facebook (2015) - renegadesensei
https://righteousruminations.blogspot.com/2015/06/hating-facebook.html
======
brianfitz
I remember reading this when it was originally posted years ago and have had
time to think about the implications. I am just over 40, so most of my class
reunions were organized through Facebook and was amazed at the turn-out
possible because of these new social networks. For my mother, there were
simply people she no longer knew how to reach — including one of her best
friends from childhood. Years went by until Facebook gained traction and they
were reunited.
The point being, it is just as likely that the writer of this post wasn’t left
out any more than he would have been in the past. What has possibly changed is
that a funeral lightly attended by only a few in the past could now reach the
many. In the past, he would have missed hearing about the death and would have
missed the funeral. In the present, the same thing happened but now feels left
out.
It’s a benefit to the mother who lost her child, but a detriment to the friend
who feels left behind.
~~~
komali2
Agreed. Furthermore, Facebook doesn't require your work history or any of the
other things the author claims is it's blood payment cost of entry. Last I
checked it needs a valid email address, name, and password.
I've stripped most of my personal information off Facebook and now just use it
as a messaging app and a "find me by name" sort of internet yellow pages
thing.
~~~
wyager
> Last I checked it needs a valid email address, name, and password.
I’ve had friends have to submit government ID to prove that they were using
their real name.
~~~
protomyth
Why is wyager getting down voted? This is not uncommon given that people with
certain types of last names (e.g. Yellow Horse) are targeted and then need to
prove who they are. I cannot confidently say they don't keep the id given the
whole phone call revelations of the last week.
------
chrischen
Facebook's primary feature is a newsfeed which uses an algorithm to shape and
influence who you ultimately interact with. If you consign your interpersonal
relationship to Facebook's algorithms then it has become normal for facebook's
algorithm to shape and control the opinions and relationships of people en-
masse.
Whether you consider facebook's algorithms benevolent or not, the danger
actually lies in the fact that people's opinions and friendships are not
forming in a more natural and organic way. If relationships and opinions are
shaped by an algorithm from a single source, it's more prone to failure,
influence, if not by malevolence than by simple incompetence of not knowing
the macro effects of a line of code applied to hundreds of millions of people.
~~~
bigiain
Right. Features are for customers. Facebook's primary feature is ubiquitous
surveillance of 2 billion users. The newsfeed is a use of that feature, where
advertisers and "Facebook partners" can pay to manipulate targeted portions of
those 2 billion users.
To Facebook _users_, the newsfeed is just a gimmick they use to get you to
reveal more about you and your friends/connections than you would otherwise.
------
osoba
A few months ago I won about $200 worth of Amazon gift card codes. Since
nothing from Amazon delivers to my country I decided to give them to an
American friend of mine. I remember it was late for him when I sent him the
codes over Facebook so he only used up one right away and then went to sleep.
The next morning, however, the other coupons were all used up. He claims
nobody else has access to his FB messages and I never bothered to actually
check the validity of the codes on Amazon, so there is enough room for
plausible deniability, but this coincided in time with this reddit post
[https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/79x7u3/facebook_em...](https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/79x7u3/facebook_employees_just_opened_a_privately_shared/)
and now there's that nagging feeling in the back of my mind that some
underpaid 3rd world facebook employee read through the messages and decided to
use the codes themselves.
I don't know, this is all probably a stretch, but that moment reached a new
low for Facebook in my mind (not that my opinion of them was high before).
~~~
cconstantin
Did you contacted Amazon to clarify gift-codes usage?
------
glangdale
I will say that if you are organizing an event on Facebook, and you actually
have a list of people you'd like to see there or who should be there, then if
you don't make an effort to contact the non-FB people, you're a bit of a
jackass.
We put together a big list of people for a HS reunion, and used real-life
social networks to (try to) reach the names that weren't on FB. Mostly
successful and with a large nucleus who were on FB, easy to distribute the
workload.
------
osogolo
I empathize a lot with this guy. I wanted to share my recent story:
I unfollowed every single person and page I'm connected to on Facebook a month
and a half ago.
Every time I look at a Facebook there's just about no value. My feed is empty.
Nevertheless, I'll visit it by habit. It's weird to see how that persists.
I am not posting (never really did anyway), and I have no idea what's going on
with the people I didn't really interact with that much anyway.
What put me over the edge was answering the question: "Does anyone that I
deeply care for post anything (at all)?"
Answer for 90% was no. And there rest I still have phone/text to communicate.
This has all made me consider what relationships in my life are important. And
it's made me consider how susceptible I was to a fine-tuned algorithm hungry
for outrage and virality, and how that influenced my relationships and myself.
I feel great opting out. I hope to fully delete the whole thing soon. Weird
that I can't just do that.
I recommend the unfollow thing.
~~~
vmokry
I remember when I tried to do the same thing three years ago (the year before
I deleted my account) – Unfollow every person. AFAIK I had 600+ contacts.
What was funny, after ~300 clicks I got the captcha to fill and 14 clicks
later week block with a message: "This is not a proper using of the function".
Also, FB was hypocritical. It allowed me to click to follow again, just
unfollow was blocked. :-)
------
evrydayhustling
> I hate that, if I somehow don’t want to consign my personal data, beliefs,
> preferences, relationships, work history, daily plans, and private messages
> to a massive advertising corporation, I have to risk missing out on seminal
> life events. Not being on Facebook is sort of like not having a cellphone.
> Sure, me and a small number of weirdos can opt out, but we are increasingly
> disadvantaged by it.
This captures perfectly my reasons for getting on Facebook in ~2007. One of my
best friends had a baby and I was the only one who didn't know because I
wasn't on there. I'd also been one of the last of my friends to get a
cellphone 3 years before, and was starting to worry that I was just a jerk
about keeping in touch.
It's really interesting to compare those two decisions now. The slider phone I
got in 2003 was nothing like what we have today, but buying it let me
participate in a communication ecosystem that's still evolving fast.
Facebook feels really stagnant by comparison. Its core mechanics, at least the
ones I care about, are unchanged. Everyone's usage of it long ago stagnated
into the same patterns. I still check it because I have to for life events,
but it's not something I look forward to.
------
renegadesensei
Updated to reflect that I wrote this in 2015. Still feel raw about it.
------
vanilla_nut
I really sympathize with statements like this:
>I hate that, if I somehow don’t want to consign my personal data, beliefs,
preferences, relationships, work history, daily plans, and private messages to
a massive advertising corporation, I have to risk missing out on seminal life
events.
I feel very much the same way. Social media is a tool that we can use to make
social interaction more convenient, but it should not replace real social
interaction. Writing a letter, an email, calling a friend, or even sending a
text should not be replaced by Facebook because it is ultimately a corporation
that seeks to exploit those very interactions for its own profit _through
means you may not agree with_ \-- that is, selling off your personal data to
advertisers.
That being said, it's fine to use Facebook occasionally to check up on what's
happening with your friends across the globe. But I really think that everyone
should consider removing their "close" friends from Facebook and moving that
communication to in-person talks, phone calls, or even text messages. If
you're logging onto Facebook even once a day, you're playing into their
psychological traps: it's probably best reserved for a lazy Sunday afternoon,
something like how older folks treat email. You certainly don't need it on
your phone.
If you're concerned that you'll lose friends by deleting your Facebook, you
can always keep a Messenger account connected to your phone number and not
miss out on group communications. If you're a mover and shaker in your social
groups, try pulling your groups away from Facebook. Organizing an event? Offer
to send out a mass email to people instead of using Facebook. Or text people
yourself instead. Decoupling yourself from Facebook only gives you more power
when they decide to do misbehave (do you _really_ think this is the last or
worse scandal we'll see from Zuck), and if you're really successful, your
friend group will eventually start to realize that they don't need Facebook
any more either. Everyone isn't going to delete their Facebook overnight, but
if folks start to disconnect bit by bit we'll a) all be better off and have
more future options when it comes to Facebook's manipulation and b) start to
make Facebook less and less valuable, so eventually people won't even want to
join in the first place. "What is an ocean... but a multitude of drops?"
~~~
tim333
I would have thought a simple solution to
>I somehow don’t want to consign my personal data, beliefs, preferences,
relationships, work history, daily plans, and private messages to a massive
advertising corporation, I have to risk missing out on seminal life events
Is just to have a facebook account with you name and picture and limit to
that? Log in in an incognito window if you really don't want them to know what
you are browsing?
~~~
vanilla_nut
A fair point, but I would rather they didn't have knowledge of my social graph
at all. The minute I make an account, events, friend connections, private
messages, and more all start aggregating there. Then you have to log in to
check when you get messages and invites, and they know where you connected
from and when you connected -- even more data.
And since Facebook is tracking the phone calls and text messages of at least
some of my Android-using friends, there goes even more privacy, this time
_completely out of my control_ to keep private. Unfortunately Facebook is
pretty good at being "sticky".
------
tinyhouse
On a related note. A couple of years ago I was really annoyed by all the
notifications FB emailed me. I went to settings trying to change it so that FB
only sends me emails if someone is tagging me or sending me a message. Maybe
I'm stupid, I just couldn't figure it out. They made it so confusing and after
a few attempts I just stopped receiving any notifications, missing out some
important messages from people. I don't think it's just a bad UX (which it
is). It's probably by design, intentionally making it hard for people to
disconnect.
------
lambdasquirrel
And as a counterpoint, I will say that after I _deleted_ my Facebook, I feel a
lot more connected to the people I do see, when I see them, because I cannot
assume I know anything about their life, and, I have to, yknow, be _present_
with them? i’m
------
apo
_Not being on Facebook is sort of like not having a cellphone._
As someone who has never had a cell phone, I can say that living this way in a
first-world country is challenging. I've been in situations where it's assumed
I do have a cell phone, and the result ranges from awkward to maddening for
the other party.
I also don't have a Facebook account. Not having a cell phone is much more
troublesome.
The pull of network effect doesn't just mean that people join for opportunity.
If sufficiently insinuated into daily life, some become compelled to join out
of necessity.
But with Facebook and Cell Phones, joining this club takes a major toll one's
privacy.
That's the dilemma anyone resisting network effect faces.
~~~
toomanybeersies
Not having Facebook and not having a cellphone are two completely different
things. If you don't have Facebook, you might miss out on some social stuff.
Not having a cellphone is a bad idea, even just from a safety standpoint.
What if there is an incident and you need to call emergency services? Maybe
you crash your car? Maybe you come across another crashed car, and can't
contact emergency services because you don't have a cellphone?
I understand why you wouldn't want to carry around a cellphone all the time
for privacy reasons (government tracking etc.), but why not get a $10
dumbphone and keep it turned off and in your backpack, or in your glovebox in
your car? Nobody can track you if it's turned off.
I'm not sure about the USA, but at least in New Zealand, you'd only have to
top up a few dollars every 6 months to keep your SIM active, and you don't
need to register SIM cards in your name (although I know that other countries,
like Australia, require this). Even without a SIM in your phone, you can still
ring emergency services. There's no reason not to buy a $5 phone and keep it
around just in case.
~~~
jjgreen
I've never had a cellphone either; I do it because of the danger, life is so
tame nowerdays that it's one of few thrills that are still legal.
------
rjkennedy98
Its not a matter of trading personal information for access to a social
network, which is a reasonable thing to do.
Its a matter of letting a nefarious actor into your life to feed you addictive
poison, torpedo your well being, and feed you propaganda. Each new revelation
makes this increasingly clear.
------
matz1
I can relate to this since I'm an introvert to and don't like social media in
general but I do realize that this is how the current generation of society
works. If I want to participate in it I have to adapt too.
------
alistairSH
_[Without Facebook], I have to risk missing out on seminal life events_
Is missing a high school reunion or the funeral of a long-list friend really
"seminal"? Socially awkward, perhaps, but seminal? No, not really. Seminal is
getting married, the death of a parent, birth of a child, finishing college.
Not getting drunk with a bunch of people you barely know any more.
~~~
astura
Totally agreed.
Seminal literally means "of seed." Seminal moments are the moments in life
that "seed" your future. 99.99% of the time your life continue on exactly the
same if you attend a funeral or you don't and if you attend a class reunion,
or you don't.
------
tzs
> I hate that, if I somehow don’t want to consign my personal data, beliefs,
> preferences, relationships, work history, daily plans, and private messages
> to a massive advertising corporation, I have to risk missing out on seminal
> life events.
Why not have a Facebook account but only use it read-only for the most part?
Nothing _requires_ that you post your beliefs, work history, daily plans and
such.
That's what I do. I do post a couple of times or so a year, just to keep the
account looking used, but those posts are always just something innocuous.
Usually just a link to something funny I saw on Reddit, but sometimes a photo
or video of mine. The latest, for example, was a link to this video of several
Chestnut-backed Chickadees that landed on my hand to eat peanuts out of my
palm [1].
I do the same thing on Twitter.
[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShPgZhSbxU0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShPgZhSbxU0)
If you watch, I recommend a second viewing going frame by frame as they land
and takeoff.
~~~
etiam
> Nothing requires that you post your beliefs, work history, daily plans and
> such.
Except a lot of information about these things can be inferred simply from
using the network, through metadata and behavioral analysis. Facebook will
also use their software running on your machine to steal just about every
piece of information they can access at rest there.
------
makecheck
Closed platforms recreate all previously-solved problems, too, usually
requiring you to wait for the gatekeeper to get around to offering a solution.
We _have_ ways to track contacts, organize E-mail threads, view restaurant web
sites, etc. and all those tools are uninvented when the data is only visible
through Facebook. Even when Facebook graciously permits you to keep using one
of your tools (like a web browser), it’s still effectively broken until you
log in.
I find a silver lining in this by making it as friction-full as possible for
me to view Facebook content. For example, having to unblock domains and log in
every time (never saving passwords, etc.). It works: it makes me consider
whether or not I really want to spend time viewing whatever silly
video/rant/whatever I initially thought was interesting. And of course then I
am not sucked into an hour of grazing the rest of the feed.
------
xapata
Note that carrying a smartphone and using a credit card is entrusting a great
deal of information to advertising companies. All major phone and credit
companies are selling your data (anonymized, to the degree they feel is
optimal). I'm not sure that Facebook is any worse.
To be more clear: They know where you go, who you call and text, and what you
buy.
~~~
graeme
Even on iphone with content blockers running and location services disabled
for most apps except while using?
Referring to ad companies here, not NSA etc
~~~
jacquesm
Yep. Unless you disable your WiFi and only use a VPN while you are connecting
to the web via your phone.
~~~
bigiain
Even that doesn't solve the problem...
[https://www.tomsguide.com/us/FCC-Mobile-Devices-iPhone-
Andro...](https://www.tomsguide.com/us/FCC-Mobile-Devices-iPhone-
Android,news-12775.html)
"Devices that are not GPS-enabled must be tracked via triangulation with local
cellular towers, a time consuming process that can only give an approximate
location and can dangerously delay critical assistance. The new regulation
will allow almost universal pinpoint location of 911 callers by emergency
responders. No date was given for when non-GPS enabled devices must be
discontinued, but given FCC estimates that by 2018, 75 percent of all mobile
devices will be GPS capable, it is likely that the assumption is the
sunsetting of obsolete devices will occur naturally as consumers chuck
outdated gadgets for shiny new ones."
I'm really curious to know whether this means my iPhone will give up my GPS
location against my preference setting if I call 911, or if it means the
carriers are going to be required to improve non-gps derived location data
from cell towers to "allow almost universal pinpoint location of 911 callers
by emergency responders"...
~~~
jacquesm
True, but that's something your cell provider (and the providers of other base
stations your phone has pinged) has access to, not your typical website.
But you are 100% correct that the cell network knows to within a rough
approximation where you are and how fast you travel. This information is also
used to predict where and when the next cell-hand-off will happen.
~~~
bigiain
Yep - as always in security, it's important to know who your adversary is.
If your adversary is the NSA(/GRU/Mossad/etc) - you're fucked. Throw away all
your electronic devices, torch your house, and hope you make it to Belize
before they shut the borders to you.
If your adversary is Law Enforcement, they'll get cell tower data (quite
likely without a warrant by just asking), and they'll then mislead a court and
jury about how accurate that data is: [https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-
desk/what-your-cell-phon...](https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/what-
your-cell-phone-cant-tell-the-police)
This link: [http://urgentcomm.com/psap/different-
strokes](http://urgentcomm.com/psap/different-strokes) says that since '05
wireless carriers in The US have been required to do better than just "which
cell tower you're connected to", but for some percentage of connections
they're required to provide 50 or 150m location accuracy - which they can
apparently do using three cell towers and triangulation. Since they're happy
to hand over cell tower data to law enforcement when asked (or possibly when
asked with a warrant) - I wouldn't bet against then handing this E911 Phase 2
level of location accuracy over.
Somewhat more worryingly... The cell providers seem to be happily monetising
that data too: [https://techcrunch.com/2017/10/15/mobile-phone-companies-
app...](https://techcrunch.com/2017/10/15/mobile-phone-companies-appear-to-be-
providing-your-number-and-location-to-anyone-who-pays/)
[https://www.theverge.com/2013/4/9/4187654/how-carriers-
sell-...](https://www.theverge.com/2013/4/9/4187654/how-carriers-sell-your-
location-and-get-away-with-it)
Now out of the four big technology companies - two of them own a mobile OS and
so can do whatever-the-fuck they want with your phone if you're "in their
camp" and of the remaining two, one of them actually sells you stuff to make a
living, the other makes their money by surveilling you.
With Facebook's warchest - what do you reckon the chances are of them _not_
buying cellphone location data on the open market to add to their advertising-
marketing machine?
I'm not saying I know they are - but I do know that the data about location
down to perhaps 50m accuracy or less is legally required to be available to
the cell operators - and they've been caught in the past selling that data -
and Facebook have _very_ deep pockets to pay for data to match against theirs.
(And there is almost _zero_ chance that whatever the cell companies might to
to "anonymise" that cell location data, Facebook wouldn't be able to de-
anonymise it by correlating to to other data they collect.)
But yeah, having your phone use a VPN no doubt helps...
~~~
jacquesm
> With Facebook's warchest - what do you reckon the chances are of them _not_
> buying cellphone location data on the open market to add to their
> advertising-marketing machine?
I don't think they would have to pay for it. They're just going to give the
phone company a nice fat discount on their advertising campaign. That way they
don't have to own up to selling your data either, win/win. /s
Mobile phone location data is so valuable that there are whole companies
dedicated to 'enriching' mobile phone OpenRTB requests with location data.
[https://www.iab.com/guidelines/real-time-bidding-rtb-
project...](https://www.iab.com/guidelines/real-time-bidding-rtb-project/)
------
tunesmith
Honestly, this is true even if you're on facebook, if the algorithms don't
feel like putting the event in your feed.
~~~
FargoPelz
When someone invites you to an event, you receive a notification. You will be
directly informed, you don't have to see it in your feed.
~~~
deadbunny
You can even setup an ical feed for events, they'll get added when people
invite you. Don't even have to login.
------
robbrown451
The major complaint here is that not being on Facebook leaves him out of
things that are now on Facebook. And I get that, for a good while I was off
facebook entirely and felt quite left out. But still... it doesn't really make
sense to me for that to be your primary complaint. You could make the same
complaint about email, or the internet in general.
That said, I think it is a terrible shame more efforts haven't gone into
making an alternative -- and at this point, it would need to be a compatible
alternative -- that is not controlled by a single for-profit organization.
------
femto
Communicating in a way that is mutually agreeable is a more powerful enabler
of friendship than the existence of an entry in Facebook's database.
I put it to you that Facebook is about group communication, whereas friendship
is about one-on-one communication. As such Facebook has nothing to do with
friendship, and it is a delusion to think otherwise. Those Facebook "friends"
are actually acquaintances, and your friends are those smaller number of
people whom you talk to outside Facebook.
------
joshjdr
How fast can I kill all my karma by pointing out that the 3 of the top 4
articles on HN are some realization that Facebook does not give an ef about
anybody's privacy?
~~~
joshjdr
Response/discussing is preferred to down votes!
------
quasimodem
I fantasize about Facebook just one day utterly disappearing. No warning, just
quietly taken offline without explanation, all data deleted without a whisper.
The world would absolutely freak out like never before and I would sit back
and chortle with delight as I watched my fellow people throw tantrums like
little babies for months on end. Think of the lawsuits and blubbering that
would ensue!
I think it would be an excellent lesson to society that they shouldn't ever,
ever, ever entrust their personal data to a profit-driven corporation again.
Out of the ashes would arise a better, decentralized system and control would
be given back to the individuals and we would stop hating each other and being
glued to our fucking phones all the time and, well ok this fantasy has gone
off the rails, but you get the idea!
~~~
wilsonnb
How would that be a lesson to society about entrusting personal data to
corporations?
~~~
quasimodem
I mean, insofar as society can learn anything, I think if your entire last 10+
years of photos and love letters and baby pictures and the other trillion gigs
of intimate shit people have eagerly given to FB suddenly disappeared, you
might be a little less willing to so unconditionally trust the next FB that
comes along. IDK man! By that point, there's a new generation chompin' at the
bit to give away their gigs of content and the cycle repeats. Guess we're
stuck w/ FB forever. And war. War will never go away either.
------
harel
Social networks and Facebook in general are a certain aspect of "progress" in
society. Yes, it's not perfect, but it's ubiquitous enough that it's
considered a primary contact channel that reaches many people at once. Not
liking it/hating it/etc. is fine. It's one's own prerogative. But don't
complain other people find it useful and you will be left behind because you
don't. An exaggerated analogy is like saying "I don't like
computers/cars/aeroplanes/internet. I hate that. It's not right I am left
behind for not wanting to use it".
~~~
ethics_gradient
It's not that the author didn't get to chat about people's lunch on Facebook
every morning. It's that the author wasn't invited to things he should have
been invited to because to many people, "I invited everyone from my FB list"
sounds like they invited everyone they reasonably could. Which is not true.
The author explicitly says that he is easy to find. And his school friends
should take the extra several minutes to searchengine each person they didn't
have on facebook if the event is relatively big and organized. It should be
the default response. And the author is rightly frustrated that it isn't,
because people are lazy and can unintentionally be careless.
That isn't comparable to not being invited to a spontaneous dinner in 2 hours
at 9PM by someone clicking invite all of their contacts list tagged as
_classmates_ because you're living in the mountaints a one-hour flight and a
two hour hike away without any communication tools around you and you don't
even believe in flights.
I don't mean these examples to sound flippant, they're here because I'm trying
to underline how there's reasonable compromises between convenience and being
a good friend / event organizer, and not being on facebook doesn't make you
hard to contact. It definitely didn't in the case of the author.
~~~
harel
All fair points and an indication to the quality of 'friends' sometimes who
might or might not make the effort. One point I'll make is that being on
LinkedIn, to me, as what being on Facebook is for him. I don't like LinkedIn,
but I'm on it, reluctantly. I am only there for potential business and
'presence'. My "contacts" are mostly former colleagues, and recruiters. Every
button click on LinkedIn requires a second thought as it might be a contact
harvesting trap or worst. I really don't like it, yet I'm there because I
realise that sometimes this is a viable channel for this or that purpose.
------
etiam
Well said.
A talk by Moxie Marlinspike called "Changing threats to privacy" also
addressed some of these network effect aspects in a thoughtful way.
[https://archive.org/details/youtube-
dBtmzY5gcO8](https://archive.org/details/youtube-dBtmzY5gcO8)
------
dberg
I do sympathize with this but I have friends not on FB and as a friend of them
, if I see something on FB (like an event invite) one of us know to relay via
text to them. Maybe my situation is unique ?
------
sandov
You don't hate facebook. You hate people who think facebook = life.
~~~
antoineMoPa
Of course, there is also snapchat, tumblr and instagram.</OnlyHalfSarcasm>
------
FargoPelz
If you're concerned about "consign[ing] my personal data, beliefs,
preferences, relationships, work history, daily plans, and private messages to
a massive advertising corporation" but don't want to miss out on seminal life
events, why not just maintain a Facebook account without ever posting to it?
As long as you remain friends with people you need to keep in touch with, but
never post anything or fill out your personal details, you will not be giving
up any privacy or missing out.
~~~
wsxcde
They'll still know where you live, where you work, what devices you use, what
places you travel to, what hotels you stay in, what times you're usually
awake, who your friends are, which friends you're more interested in, what
invitations you respond to, what invitations you ignore, which of your friends
are interested in you, what your hobbies and interests are, what texts you
send on messenger, what other websites you visit on the internet, ...
Should I go on?
~~~
dexterdog
Don't use the app and they won't know most of that.
~~~
ExcelSaga
Also don’t let your friends and family use it, block their Pixel, don’t let
them buy brokered info on you, don’t let anyone else with Facebook on your
WiFi... and do this all perfectly 100% of the time.
~~~
dexterdog
They can't track you if you're not using their app on your phone. Use a
sandboxed version (there are many) and it's not running and tracking you other
than when you're actually using it. You can also sandbox it on your computer
if you like, but there are many privacy blockers that will keep them from
tracking you all over the web if you want to just use it in your regular
browser.
------
kelnos
> _I feel that my only real choices are to either A. Get with the program and
> embrace the dominant protocols of society..._
Um, yes? That's literally what bring a part of a society is about. I'm not
thrilled that Facebook has woven itself so deeply into our society, but if
you're not on it, it's likely you'll be missing out on some things. Many of
those things you may not care about, but unfortunately for some, like the
death of a dear friend, you will care.
------
MobiusHorizons
I haven't used Facebook for years (deleted my account as much as is possible).
I'm lucky though because I have a wife on Facebook who lets me knom when
family events occur.
------
jakequade
Sorry, but for the most part this sounds stupid. You're hating a widespread
method of communication because it doesn't work for you _when you're not using
it_. That's like complaining that no one text messages you if you never opted
in to owning a phone.
~~~
astura
Yeah, and it's really baffling that someone who is a self described
"introvert," who goes years without speaking to people they consider close
friends, is upset they didn't get an invite to a _high school reunion_!?!? Why
would someone like that want to attend a high school reunion in the first
place?
They didn't get an invite because they don't stay in communication with
people, not because they don't have a Facebook!!!
I'm not really sure why they'd expect to hear directly from the mom. When a
person dies, the information is spread like a web, the next-of-kin very rarely
informs everyone directly. Usually they inform their close circle and the
close circle of the deceased. Then those people spread the word. 100% of the
time I've been informed of a death it was by someone in my close circle, not
the next-of-kin. Since the author doesn't keep communication with their
"friends," they got overlooked. That's very sad and shitty, but it doesn't
have to do with Facebook.
~~~
mondoshawan
Maybe because without an event to go to, it's difficult to force themselves
out into the world?
Maybe because they wanted to see their friend at said event?
Or maybe, just maybe, they didn't have the current contact info for their
friends and would like so still see them but otherwise can't setup a meeting
with them?
The article doesn't make all of the facts plain, so it's pointless to
speculate the full details.
------
drosan
So that person calls himself/herself an "introvert" (I hate when ppl justify
their lifestyle with that word btw) then complains than he never got to class
reunion. Then throws some stronger motives about his friend suicide yet griefs
more about inability to "say goodbye" or "i feel responsible and hurt".
And overall says about facebook hate but, like, it is just a platform, a
technology; it all starts and ends up with people, so he'd better say "I hate
people but want their attention but don't want to tell 'em that by owning a
facebook profile".
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Serverless Scope: Get a customizable bird's eye view of your GitHub projects - AlaskaCasey
https://serverless.com/blog/scope-the-open-source-serverless-status-board/
======
josh_carterPDX
Curious what the difference is between Scope and using something like
Waffle.io.
~~~
pmelendez
Functionally speaking, probably are very close... but this one is using
serverless architecture and in the way they are using it, it is very cheap to
host in AWS
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Cobra Effect: Lionfish-style - kaptain
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/10/science/earth/10fish.html
======
blackboxxx
I don't like the editorial slant on the title kaptain. You're declaring it a
bad idea when you likely don't have anywhere near the credentials to make such
a call.
Either we continue to eat the same popular fish out of existance, or we can
try and eat overpopulated predators like the Lionfish.
It makes sense to try an idea before we condemn it.
~~~
js2
_There are risks to whetting America’s appetite. Marketing an invasive species
could make it so popular that “individuals would raise or release the fish”
where they did not already exist, Ms. Fellows said, potentially exacerbating
the problem; tilapia were originally imported into Latin America for weed and
bug control, but commercialization helped the species spread far more widely
than intended._
------
spatten
Ideas like this always reminds me of the old lady who swallowed a fly, which
is such a powerful metaphor for almost any time we try to control invasive
species.
Creating a demand for a product is a powerful force, but it sure is hard to
control once it has been established.
P.S. Here's the link to the cobra effect article from yesterday:
<https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Cobra_effect>
------
brianbreslin
I think this idea could be applied to lots of species. Maybe they put a
regulation on farming, free reign on fishing. In Florida there is a big
problem with pythons in the Everglades that came from people's homes where
they were pets.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
BritRuby conference cancelled due to gender equality outrage - relix
http://2013.britruby.com/?hn
======
relix
Apparently the non-profit conference had thus far a 100% white male line-up
and got a lot of negative tweets about that recently. Example:
<https://twitter.com/joshsusser/status/269863520135421952>
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ruby vs. Python, the Definitive FAQ - choult
https://hackernoon.com/ruby-vs-python-the-definitive-faq-5cb0046292be
======
informatimago
Not a serious comparison.
The point that matters for me (if I'm to avoid the subject of significant
whitespaces), is that in Ruby there are only expressions while in Python
there's a distinction between expressions and statement.
This makes me favor strongly Ruby.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: Your primary source of inspiration? - pizza
Gah, I feel like I know Python 2.6.2 enough to make something I'm proud of, but I lack so much inspiration it's fairly pathetic.<p>Thus, HN, where is your prime source of inspiration?
======
riffer
What would you do more of on the web if it didn't take so long, and wasn't
such a hassle?
Now make it fast and easy.
~~~
pizza
That was an exceptional comment. I just felt I needed to tell you that.
------
elcron
Find something that is pathetic and make a good version of it.
Find something that you feel should be done and do it.
I recall reading somewhere that the best way to find problems is to act like a
brat and complain about everything, write down your complaints and start
working on the first one you feel _needs_ to be done.
------
swannodette
Learning. Even when building, I'm mostly inspired by the possibility of
learning. Because usually the first time you built it kind of crooked. The
next time it'll be a little straighter. The next time perhaps there will even
be a touch of elegance in one miniscule part.
I find programming very much like practicing an instrument. There's the dim
hope that one day you'll master it. But trying your best and learning is more
than satisfying/inspiring for me anyway.
------
jhancock
inspiration? or motivation?
I find that inspiration mostly makes me daydream of all the wonderful things
I'm "going to do".
I find I usually need motivation to get them done. I find that precursors to
motivation, for me, are be happy and get a good nights sleep.
[EDIT] let me add more to the "be happy" issue. It doesn't well describe
things. Software is never "finished". One technique I have learned to coupe
with this un-motivating feel of something never being done is to find simple
things that give me pleasure that have a fixed ending. For dinner tonight I
made a tasty hand crafted sandwich. It took 10 minutes to make and 10 to eat.
I enjoyed it and felt satisfaction for a job well done. Then I went back
upstairs and was productive. Some people find jogging or other exercise a
great method. It has a clear ending and you feel good.
------
zaidf
Anytime I hear a friend whine or experience a major inconvenience, I am
inspired to find a solution:)
I rarely succeed. But most recently I hopped across my new startup idea
through this process.
------
spaghetti
Making things that are beautiful, fun, and other people enjoy. Currently I'm
making a game and taking my time with the artwork, sounds etc to make it as
enjoyable as possible.
------
lacker
My prime source of inspiration is promising other people I am going to do
something cool really soon. Then I feel obligated which forces me to become
inspired.
~~~
jhancock
That's more motivation or responsibility than inspiration. But I use that
technique too and it does work in many cases.
------
GotToStartup
I find a lot of inspiration from other really well built apps. Often finding
something that somebody has clearly done RIGHT motivates me to do the same.
------
rw
If you ignore the pomposity, <http://www.ted.com> can be wonderful.
------
edw519
Work.
The software sucks so bad, I _know_ I can do better.
And I have.
And I will continue to.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask YC: Where to order business cards? - BenS
Hi, I'd like to pick up some simple, but good looking business cards for meetings. Does anyone have suggestions? (Note: I don't care for Moo cards)
======
timr
I've used both vistaprint.com and overnightprints.com.
Overnightprints has better paper stock and printing options (e.g. rounded
corners), but I wasn't super-thrilled with their print quality. Vistaprint may
have been better at printing, but their card stock was flimsy.
That said, they were both okay, and pretty cheap, too (vistaprint is the
cheapest, once you factor in minimum order sizes).
------
alex_c
Very happy with our cards from overnightprints.com, the price was very
reasonable and we always get compliments on the cards (I think they look a lot
more expensive than they actually were).
------
pchristensen
I wrote up my experience with Overnightprints here:
[http://geekstack.com/blog/quick-and-easy-do-it-yourself-
busi...](http://geekstack.com/blog/quick-and-easy-do-it-yourself-business-
cards/)
Hint: It was great!
------
kimboslice
Vista Print. And 'splurge' for the thick or glossy stock. Also, google 'Vista
Print Coupon' before - you can always get 20-25% off.
------
aaroneous
PSPrint.com is good, cheap, and local if you're in the bay area.
------
alaskamiller
<http://searchyc.com/%2522business+cards%2522>
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=163191>
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
How did a business get a .edu TLD? - Gabrielfair
https://www.academia.edu/advertise
======
Gabrielfair
I meant to submit this as an "Ask HN" post.
~~~
detaro
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academia.edu#Domain_name](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academia.edu#Domain_name)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The Commercial Satellite Imagery Business Model Is Broken - jofer
https://medium.com/@joemorrison/the-commercial-satellite-imagery-business-model-is-broken-6f0e437ec29d
======
aurizon
Cube sats are about to shake this business up. In the past the cost of entry
was very high = few entrants, that went to fewer by predatory pricing against
any new entrants. The old birds are complex beasts that operate across many
spectral bands and are task commanded. The Cubes will be single band small
units with large lenses and larger sensors. They will accumulate and send data
to a ground based cloud and as time goes by will cover the earth in all bands
and in all seasons - all of which will be saleable at a price that will make
the old commercial monopolists to crap their pants. I am sure they will lobby
to limit these cubes, but many are immune to pressure. They might well agree
to no military base imagery. A trip to the planetlabs web site does show that
a huge acquisitive beurocracy lurks therein as there is zero mention of any
sort of fee structure = high fees IMHO, it is not the solution for all mankind
that cube sats might bring. Their videos seem to be staffed by summer
students??
~~~
campchase
Planet has hundreds of cube sats in orbit already. Low and medium resolution
data is not suitable for most commercial use cases. The only way to get high
res data is from big lenses = big satellites = big costs. I agree that cubes
sats are exciting especially for non-optical use cases like blanketing the
earth with internet or GPS-RO or Synthetic Aperture Radar. But they are not a
game-changer for visible-spectrum earth observation data in my opinion.
~~~
aurizon
Yes, but a crack in the monopoly edifice has appeared. It is true - the large
lenses rule - for now. I anticipate larger sensors, coupled with Cassegrain
reflectors(which are far lighter than glass and fold to shrink the path and
can fold even more for launch - unfolding on cue) will soon be flying and will
begin the cube sat's climb towards parity with the big boys as the weight
saving will enable their implementation in cube sats. This will make the big
boys fight back via access and price relaxations. I hope the cube sats people
stay independant and do not make common cause with the big boys? Better and
lower power SARs and control electronics are emerging to run within the
smaller power budget of the cubes.
~~~
campchase
Interesting, I’m unfamiliar with Cassegrain reflectors.
~~~
aurizon
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassegrain_reflector](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassegrain_reflector)
------
randyzwitch
The selling model sounds strangely like the car buying model. Pre-COVID, even
the suggestion that the total price of a car be listed on the car was viewed
as idealistic nonsense. Only until a pandemic broke out, did car dealers admit
"you're right, we could always sell you a car online"
~~~
campchase
I sympathize. I sell stuff without a price tag all the time--it's the trap of
having large, high-paying customers and trying to lean down to serve small
customers. They're incompatible sales motions, and the effort to set up an
entirely independent, second distribution model is very expensive and time
consuming so it doesn't seem worth investing in.
------
PaulHoule
So many problems with this post.
It's on Medium (not sure if Medium was broken but I wish it was -- if you are
posting on Medium everybody knows you are a dog.)
Scatological language: there are better words than "shitty" to describe your
experience.
Missing the point: to many users the value of satellite imagery is that they
have it and that 'competitors' do not. In the case of the US Govt they don't
want unfriendly military organizations to have it, if it is somebody like the
Bridgewater hedge fund they might want to know the occupancy of the parking
lot at every Wal-Mart in America, but it's only valuable to them if nobody
else knows it.
~~~
campchase
Thanks for your feedback, Paul! To your points:
1\. Medium is crappy, agreed. I would prefer to use Ghost and might do that in
the future. They say on the internet, no one knows you're a dog, but I guess
you are the exception to the rule.
2\. Use of scatological language is kind of my specialty. I mean, shit!
3\. You say I'm missing the point and then go on to make two points that don't
really address the argument I made. Maybe you are the the one that missed the
point. But what do I know, I'm just a dog that likes shit.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The psychological appeal of charismatic political candidates - anigbrowl
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2015/10/15/i-asked-psychologists-to-analyze-trump-supporters-this-is-what-i-learned/
======
anigbrowl
This is ostensibly about Donald Trump for the hook value but goes on to make
general observations about leadership, communication, and charisma that apply
in a wide variety of contexts, including the workplace, so I think it will be
of interest to HN readers.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Show HN: Yet another “Pocket to Kindle” service - oboroten
https://pocket2kindle.petprojects.space
======
adibalcan
Not working :( I have an error after link at pocket
~~~
oboroten
:( Try again, please. UPD: I found a problem :)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The Secret of Success: Suck Less - e1ven
http://www.codesimplicity.com/post/suck-less/
======
ilyak
I wonder if the crashing software he mentioned towards the end of essay was
amaroK.
~~~
ilyak
"Hahaha, it wasn’t."
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Now you see it, now you don't (Google rolls out fade-in homepage) - andrewpbrett
http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/12/now-you-see-it-now-you-dont.html
======
thaumaturgy
Hah! A couple of weeks back I was working (face-time) with a client, trying to
figure out some bizarre website behaviors on a project.
Every time we loaded the Google home page, it did the fade in thing, and I
couldn't replicate it on any of my systems, even though the client was hooked
into my local network at the time.
It drove me _nuts_ , doubly so since I couldn't find any evidence of it
happening to anyone else. I finally concluded that either Google had done
something funky with their page code, or something was hosed up in a bizarre
way in her copy of IE 8.
Thanks, Google.
~~~
ericd
Heh the hazards of A/B tests... I often wonder what percentage of A/B test
subjects casually use one anothers' computers and get confused/annoyed.
------
NathanKP
I loved the screenshot of the ultra minimalistic barcode logo and fade
combination:
[http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7ZYqYi4xigk/Sxb_MsMIxyI/AAAAAAAAFC...](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7ZYqYi4xigk/Sxb_MsMIxyI/AAAAAAAAFC0/IqU_3tGQCUU/s1600-h/barcode_mockup_fade.gif)
------
hellotoby
I'm not sure I really see the point of this. I mean the fade lasts for approx.
3 seconds, by which time I have hardly got my cursor to the search box let
alone started typing. I agree they could reduce some of the other visual noise
on the page but this seems... unnecessary.
[edit] I also use the top left controls an awful lot to access gmail etc.
since I have google set as my homepage. Now I have to wait before I can access
these? Poor usability. [/edit]
~~~
liuliu
It seems like if you move your mouse, the homepage will show everything. The
idea seems to be just go to google.com, and type what you want to search
without moving your mouse.
~~~
hellotoby
Ah, well spotted. I didn't notice that. I stand by my original point though,
why should I have to wait?
~~~
DougBTX
They are making you wait so that users on their happy path have less
distractions.
Worth noting that the animation lasts about half a second, not three. And that
people on the happy path will not need to wait. And that the main problem
isn't the wait, but that if you want Mail or News you have to move the mouse
before you know where to click, so the initial movement will be in the wrong
direction.
~~~
nooneelse
If the fade in elements stay in the same places, then won't low-level/muscle
memory take care of the initial movement being usually in the right direction?
~~~
DougBTX
I'd entertain the possibility, but I'm not sure. I hardly ever access
google.com directly. I mostly use Chrome, where I search from the address bar
directly, and in Safari and Firefox I search using the "g %s" bookmark from
the address bar. I have gmail as a thumbnail in the Chrome new tab start page,
and in other browsers I type it in directly.
So, no anecdotes from me. Hopefully the Google guys have tested this
themselves, and perhaps it does happen.
------
tptacek
I hate this passionately. Google is my home page, and now every time I open a
new browser window, I see a distracting animation.
~~~
sfk
<http://www.google.com/intl/en/> is still non-bloated.
If they are going to ruin that page too, Bing will suddenly become more
attractive.
------
julio_the_squid
Mmm... maybe I'm just feeling flibbly today but I'm not a big fan of this. It
makes me feel seasick for some reason.
~~~
ewiethoff
I'm sure you're not alone. My beau gets motion sickness at the sight of some
GUIs, and I get seizures from same. Hence, I will not be taking a look at
Google's new homepage, and I'm going to warn him about this change.
------
jsz0
I think it serves some purpose. Google's homepage is so plain you could almost
mistake it for being antiquated and neglected. This little fade effect is a
subtle reminder that it's simplistic by design.
------
chris100
Isn't it poor user interface design to _hide_ controls?
~~~
whughes
Their metrics indicate that it works, and I'm inclined to believe the hard
evidence over the vague guidelines of the UI textbooks. Besides, Google is
used extremely frequently. They may want an interface that is efficient rather
than one that is immediately intuitive.
------
jarsj
What is more interesting to notice is the aggressive use of Javascript on
Google's homepage as for long Google has tried to keep the old browsers
without JS support in mind. This indicates that the web is rapidly moving
towards more advanced browsers.
~~~
robryan
With chrome now Google has a vested interest in pushing the benefits of
JavaScript in web applications, then telling IE users that chrome will improve
performance.
------
macrael
One nice benefit of the change is that the home page now looks much nicer in a
"top sites" or "speed dial" or whatever you want to call it mode. It stands
out.
I like it.
------
sroerick
This is a really interesting user experience shift, given the minimalist
nature of chrome.
It's almost like a little HAL box.
------
MikeCapone
I like it, but it's mostly an aesthetic response. Maybe it's not a big
improvement in usability, but it certainly is visually.
------
ams6110
Is this supposed to be what everyone sees? I don't see any fade-in effects on
their home page. (Mac OS X 10.4 and Safari 4).
~~~
chrischen
Me neither. But I'm also using Safari 4.
Few weeks back, on my friend's IE8, the homepage was missing the Google Search
and I'm Feeling Lucky Buttons. So they're probably just testing it on select
users still, or testing it on IE 8.
~~~
lanaer
They were testing it back then, but now it seems they are launching it to
everyone. However, gotta clear caches in Safari to see it.
------
neilk
In general, the home page of an organization tells you everything you need to
know about its internal structure. Companies that don't know what they're
doing have confusing home pages. A focused company has a very clean home page.
This is one step beyond even that.
Say what you will about Google, but name any other big web property that
innovates on core services like this. Facebook maybe. Who else?
~~~
ryanwaggoner
Amazon. I know many will complain about how they're cluttered, but Amazon is
very test-centric and is constantly evolving their site based on statistical
testing to improve the business metrics that matter to them.
~~~
neilk
Lots of stuff on the page != cluttered != confusing
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Simulation class: 2D wave equations (in browser) - jedp
http://encinographic.blogspot.com/2014/05/sim-class-wave-equation-in-2d.html
======
gballan
Love it. Perhaps you'll like this nonlinear wave equation (in browser)
[http://puzlet.com/m/b00f0](http://puzlet.com/m/b00f0) .
------
SeanDav
I wondered what language it was written in and found out after a little
research: [http://processing.org/](http://processing.org/)
~~~
jedp
Yes, all his code is available at the github repo linked at the end of the
page [1], and .pde is a Processing file.
[1]
[https://github.com/blackencino/SimClass](https://github.com/blackencino/SimClass)
------
VMG
I loved playing around with this kind of water simulation when I was younger,
the basic principle behind it is very simple. Spent many hours optimizing C++
and OpenGL code.
I still haven't figured out though how to stop wave reflection at the edges
though...
~~~
chengsun
The trick is to perform damping around the edges in a hidden border around the
heightmap. Say you wanted to simulate a 500x500 heightmap. You would actually
calculate the results for a 700x700 heightmap, (which contains a hidden border
of width 100 around each edge). The hidden edges are slowly damped away by
multiplying by a factor interpolated between 1 (on the inner edge of the
visible part of the heightmap) 0 (on the very outside of the heightmap).
This works remarkably well; you can see this approach in action in
[http://www.falstad.com/ripple/](http://www.falstad.com/ripple/) for instance.
Source code is included on the page.
~~~
VMG
Thanks for the answer, I actually tried something like that but it never
worked out completely. There always was a small residual amount of noise that
prevented simulating a true infinite pool. I tried to come up with the
necessary equations for the pool margins so that I wouldn't need a hack, but
couldn't figure it out. One of those days I will!
------
oofabz
If you like wave equations, you might also enjoy EmeWave:
[http://psych.colorado.edu/~oreilly/emewave.html](http://psych.colorado.edu/~oreilly/emewave.html)
The movies at the bottom of the page are great, and if you want to see how
it's done, his papers give a thorough and rigorous explanation that is easy to
translate into code.
------
noobermin
This is just pure awesome. It is so awesome, that I was jealous of the author
for not being able to do this first, I almost didn't upvote it out of that
jealously--it's that good. Keep up the good work!
(I'm working on hacking together sims myself but for a larger project--I'm
part of a computation group at some state uni modeling HED plasmas.)
------
quarterwave
Very nice! I assume clicking inside the panel is like throwing a pebble in a
pond? Is this correct?
~~~
acadien
Yes it is very similar, it sets the value at that grid point to its maximum
height. This causes the neighboring grid cells to react accordingly (Laplacian
in space), giving the rippling effect.
------
kybernetyk
Nice. Reminds me of old school demo effects.
------
jhurliman
Amazing!
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
With MP3 patents seemingly expired, Fedora to begin shipping MP3 encoder - kibwen
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[email protected]/thread/KM557DP7OR2UEEPYQRNHJU7T45XDSXYJ/
======
kibwen
Given the uncertainty regarding whether or not MP3 is truly patent-free at
this point, I figured that this is an important story to submit given that
Fedora might be a big enough project to get any potential patent claimants to
tip their hand.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: How do you find interesting companies to apply to? - 666lumberjack
I monitor StackOverflow Jobs, HN Who's Hiring and a few language-specific sites already, but I'm aware that a lot of the most interesting jobs never go up on aggregators. I'm wondering if there's a good list of interesting small-to-mid-size tech companies that I could use to pick out some places I want to periodically check.<p>I'm primarily looking in London so ideally the site in question would have the ability to filter by location, but it might be worthwhile even without.
======
onion2k
Don't wait for companies to advertise. Contact them directly if they do
something you think is interesting and you have some in-demand skills they
might need.
~~~
666lumberjack
That's a good suggestion, but runs into the same problem - how do you find
interesting companies to contact directly?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Innovative technology for better decision-making - hpereira
http://www.d-sight.com
======
deniseadeva
Interesting indeed! Useful insights.
------
juanp
Very interesting technology :)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
C64 Keyboard Prototype - erickhill
http://www.breadbox64.com/blog/c64-keyboard-prototype/
======
vardump
Keyboard is pretty amazing for C64 preservation efforts. Perhaps lessons
learned could be applied to other same era systems.
There's one part in C64 that's becoming more and more rare — the amazing SID
sound chip.
I wonder whether it'd be possible to have production runs of truly new 6581
and/or 8580 SID chips. Does someone still have the old masks?
Other chips you could emulate with an FPGA. But SID is partially analog, so
it's special. Some say no two SIDs sound the same.
Btw, recent C64 music demo playing off 1 MB Ocean style (= ROM) cartridge (not
REU):
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qxxnJVU4jQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qxxnJVU4jQ)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYAf_awh5XA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYAf_awh5XA)
Yes, it's real. Not particularly good example of SID though, but still
impressive for 1982/83 technology.
But this one does show off SID; C64 "Cubase", realtime DSP (timestretch,
low/high pass filter, distortion, etc.) pretty amazing:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4GWheE4Gkw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4GWheE4Gkw)
~~~
monocasa
> Does someone still have the old masks?
You can probably reverse the masks with a microscope with a little elbow
grease. Not trivial by any means, but doable by someone in a garage as a
hobby.
The real question, does a fab that can work with that process still exist?
~~~
jdswain
There’s an ongoing effort to understand the SID here
[http://forum.6502.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4150](http://forum.6502.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4150)
Lots of interesting analog chip level stuff, it’s all new to me as I’ve only
dealt with things at the digital level, but very interesting to see how the
fabrication technology works in an analog way..
------
ChickeNES
Those acrylic backing plates are going to crack at some point. The author
should look into aluminum composite panel (Dibond is one brand name). It's a
sheet of HDPE plastic sandwiched between two thin layers of aluminum, and is
much stiffer and stronger than acrylic of the same thickness.
------
beamatronic
As a kid all I ever wanted from any computer was this:
Set pixel (x,y) to color (r,g,b)
I wish today’s kids had this with as little overhead as possible
~~~
egeozcan
var canvas = document.getElementById('canvas');
var ctx = canvas.getContext('2d');
ctx.fillStyle = `rgb(${r}, ${g}, ${b})`;
ctx.fillRect(x, y, 1, 1);
I say it's pretty close.
~~~
codeflo
It's pretty amazing to me that in 2018, the way we pass colors to a modern
graphics API is to build a string with comma separated list of the individual
components _encoded in decimal_.
And then people wonder why computers feel slower than they did 15 years ago.
~~~
egeozcan
Legacy APIs for DOM are hard to get rid of, which the Canvas API is based on.
There is some progress though:
[https://developers.google.com/web/updates/2018/03/cssom](https://developers.google.com/web/updates/2018/03/cssom)
------
pault
Those keycaps are gorgeous. If someone could manage to get those manufactured
I guarantee they would fetch upwards of $150/set on a site like massdrop.
~~~
xenomachina
I wonder how much it would cost to get custom keycaps made today with double-
shot top and front legends.
~~~
pault
Ask signature plastics!
[http://www.solutionsinplastic.com/](http://www.solutionsinplastic.com/)
~~~
xenomachina
It just occurred to me that using the Commodore logo probably adds to the
cost, as you'd have to license it from the company that owns the trademark.
(The C64 Mini avoids using the logo, presumably for this reason.)
~~~
pault
There's a set called SA Retro[1] that used the C64 logo; no idea if it was
cleared or not.
[1]: [https://www.geekzone.fr/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Minila-
Ai...](https://www.geekzone.fr/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Minila-Air-SA-
Retro-1.jpg)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Show HN : Slogan Generator [weekend fun project] - rk0567
http://slogangenerator.co/
======
mjhoy
Silly, but made me think: what words are the most slogan-like in my life?
_We build peanut butter._
_fatwood is fully of joy!_
Couldn't think of much.
~~~
rk0567
sorry for the typo! ( _fully_ ). I'll fix that.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Show HN: Automatic VPN Generator – Protect Yourself at Sochi and Starbucks - borski
https://www.tinfoilsecurity.com/vpn/new
======
chrissnell
A couple of things that I'd like to see in this script:
1\. Go ahead and apply all of the software updates. The RAX Ubuntu images are
behind on a lot of security updates.
apt-get -q upgrade
apt-get -q dist-upgrade
reboot (at the end)
2\. While you're at it, enable automatic security-related upgrades. It's
likely that the user of your service is less technical and not Linux-saavy.
Let's keep their cloud server from being owned.
3\. Force public key auth (disable password auth) on their OpenSSH server and
(preferably) disable root logins entirely. Create a user account for them if
needed, with sudo access.
4\. Set up IPtables as default-deny with holes punched for OpenVPN and
OpenSSH.
5\. Configure OpenSSH to listen on port 443 in addition to 22. Some hotspots
block port 22. Almost nobody blocks port 443/tcp. This is super-handy if
you're ever working from some place with a restrictive or filtering firewall.
SOCKS over SSH is awesome, especially when you're dealing with censorship or
malevolence at the DNS level. I used this technique when I was in the Army and
our Army housing had horrible DNS servers that censored a lot of legitimate
sites.
6\. I would prefer you not ask for people's cloud provider API keys. This has
huge potential for abuse. Instead, give them a script that they can run on any
Mac or Linux box that takes the root password and IP and provisions their
server for them.
I suppose I should make a PR for you; maybe later this weekend
~~~
gibbonsd1
I'd also install fail2ban. I looked at the auth logs for my DigitalOcean VM,
and it's amazing how many bots/people try to log into it, even though it
doesn't contain anything necessarily valuable.
~~~
j45
I've noticed the same on DO. Lots of weird proxying attempts trying to use the
webserver too.
------
KMag
The script is currently generating a 512-bit (EDIT: 2048-bit after merging my
pull request) DH modulus. DH over a finite field modulo a 512-bit prime is
weak sauce, about as hard to break as a 56-bit or 64-bit key for a symmetric
cipher.[1] You're using DH over a finite field, not ECDH.
Please upgrade your script to generate a 4096-bit DH modulus. EDIT: A 2048-bit
safe prime provides over 100 bits of security and is much faster to generate.
I'm not sure why OpenSSL hasn't upgraded their default modulus size, but to
have the same strength as a 150-bit symmetric cipher key, against the best
attack techniques 2004 had to offer, you'd need about a 4575-bit DH
modulus.[1] AES-128 is about as hard to break as a 3200-bit DH modulus given
the best techniques of 2001.[2]
EDIT: Times to generate different sized safe primes on my MBP maxing out one
core:
512 bits = 0.5 sec
1024 bits = 0.8 sec
2048 bits = 2 min
3072 bits = more than 30 minutes
4096 bits = more than 60 minutes
[1] [https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3766](https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3766)
(see table in section 5)
[2] [http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3526](http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3526)
~~~
borski
Would you mind submitting a pull request? We're happy to take a look, and if
we merge it it will update for all future VPN provisions.
That would be awesome.
------
akerl_
Need secure internet? Just drop your API key in here. Yes, I know they link to
the script, but you don't have any assurance that they're running the same
script when you give them your creds.
Promoting the use of VPNs and secure browsing habits is awesome, and I applaud
them for open sourcing the script. But asking people to trust them to do the
work negates much of the benefit they're trying to provide.
~~~
borski
We hear you. We think that getting more people using VPNs is more important,
so we made that trade-off. We built this for people who are mostly non-
technical, but we wanted to provide the script such that those who are more
technical are able to run this on their own. :)
I get that you can make the argument that we're training people to stick their
API keys in random textboxes on the internet, but we thought getting more
people on a VPN was worth the risk.
~~~
akerl_
Can you possibly link the script more prominently, with a suggestion that
folks run it themselves? I found it easily enough, but I was also browsing
with the primary intention of finding out what it was you were running on the
servers, not as someone looking to make a VPN.
~~~
borski
Pushing to production as we speak. :)
------
WizzleKake
If you just need secure browsing and you have a shell somewhere (like a VPS,
EC2 instance, a Linode, etc.) just use ssh.
ssh -D <port> user@host
Then configure your browser (I use a plugin called FoxyProxy) to use
localhost:<port> as SOCKS5 proxy.
This is also very cool:
[https://github.com/apenwarr/sshuttle](https://github.com/apenwarr/sshuttle)
Edit: I should add that I do not think your DNS requests will go over the
proxy. You might be able to configure your browser to do that. Caveat emptor.
~~~
gabemart
Am I correct in thinking that browser plugins like flash, java and silverlight
will not use the browser proxy and will leak data?
~~~
mjn
Flash will honor browser proxies for HTTP connections initiated within an app
(e.g. via getURL()), but Flash apps can also open arbitrary sockets, which go
directly. For Flash video, recent versions will first try a direct RTMP
connection, but will fall back to RTMPT (RTMP tunneled over HTTP) if that
fails, so they'll successfully go via the browser proxy if you block other
outgoing connections at your firewall.
But yes, if you allow plugins that have the ability to initiate arbitrary
connections, there's no way to guarantee they aren't making un-proxied
connections, unless you either use firewall rules to block outgoing un-proxied
connections, or you transparently proxy everything (VPN). Same as with running
arbitrary non-browser apps that might open socket connections.
------
pixelcort
If you're looking for an L2TP setup (iOS, etc), check out this script for EC2:
[http://www.sarfata.org/posts/setting-up-an-amazon-vpn-
server...](http://www.sarfata.org/posts/setting-up-an-amazon-vpn-server.md/)
I'm still trying to find a VPN solution that can stream 1080p video across the
Pacific Ocean, but I still haven't been able to get something working with
enough bandwidth.
~~~
ainsleyb
That's awesome. We used OpenVPN because that's what we were familiar with, but
your L2TP script looks great. Would you mind if we tried to integrated that at
some point?
~~~
pixelcort
I didn't create it; I just linked to it, lol.
------
revelation
Note that deep packet inspection will be able to identify this as OpenVPN
traffic the way its configured right now. You can configure OpenVPN to use a
fixed key [1] at which point the traffic is indistinguishable from random
noise and no longer has any protocol data. The big tradeoff here is that this
disables perfect forward secrecy; you can't add this as an extra layer on top.
You may also want to specify "cipher AES-256-CBC" in both client and server
config to upgrade from the default AES-128 it uses.
[1]: [https://openvpn.net/index.php/open-
source/documentation/misc...](https://openvpn.net/index.php/open-
source/documentation/miscellaneous/78-static-key-mini-howto.html)
~~~
borski
Would you mind making a pull request? We're happy to take a look. :)
------
jpdlla
This is awesome, but there's always something that makes me feel uneasy when
asked for API keys like this. They could probably list and delete any and all
of my droplets with that kind of credentials, couldn't they?
~~~
bensedat
Definitely agree. We hopefully answer some of those questions on our FAQ
([https://www.tinfoilsecurity.com/vpn/faq](https://www.tinfoilsecurity.com/vpn/faq)).
We also link to the script we run if you want to set it up yourself.
~~~
jpdlla
Thanks for the info! That's definitely helpful. Maybe it should be a bit more
prominent, like adding that "Why should I trust you?" section to the main page
below(or above) "What is a VPN?".
~~~
judk
On a site claiming to be about security, the FAQ should explain how and why it
works even if the user doesn't trust the server. That's the whole point.
~~~
borski
We already do?
[https://www.tinfoilsecurity.com/vpn/faq](https://www.tinfoilsecurity.com/vpn/faq)
Do we need more detail? :)
------
znowi
Good timing to piggyback on the Sochi hate. You may also like to put up this
NBC story on the site :)
_NBC: All Visitors to Sochi Olympics Immediately Hacked_
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waEeJJVZ5P8](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waEeJJVZ5P8)
~~~
voltagex_
It's better not to lie to people about what really happened. They were owned
because they executed mysterious applications.
------
umami
Is anyone else getting their DigitalOcean IPs banned from certain sites? I use
it as a personal VPN sometimes and lately any application hosted on Google App
Engine is inaccessible. Sometimes Gmail, Google Analytics and Google Drive are
also inaccessible.
The strange part is that the server I am using should not be sending email or
doing much really except hosting some git repos and a basic website.
~~~
bensedat
I've run into that before on VPNs using AWS. Likely the public IP my server is
using was used for abuse before I got it, especially as they usually only
stick very ephemerally unless you upgrade to an Elastic IP.
------
abuehrle
This is cool. Thanks.
The site talks about deleting or pausing servers, then going back to the
TinFoil page to start over in the future. However, it looks like DigitalOcean
charges a flat $5 per month for the lowest tier. Is there any harm in leaving
it running 24/7 and connecting when I'm in public? The most I'd be charged is
$5/month, right?
~~~
borski
There's no harm in that at all, and you're correct. But keep in mind it's
$5/mo/server at the lowest tier, so if you have multiple running
simultaneously you'll get charged more.
If you don't mind paying the $5, by all means leave it up 24/7\. :)
------
btgeekboy
I've been kicking around a similar idea for some time now, only that it would
be a standalone iOS/Android app. On iOS, it'd output a .ovpn file that could
be directly loaded into the OpenVPN app and started up. I'm sure Android would
have a similar process, though I admit to not being as familiar with it.
~~~
finnn
Android is basically the same, you have a .ovpn file that gets put into the
OpenVPN app. I think you have to put it in /sdcard/openvpn/ or something, but
im not 100% sure
------
ferrouswheel
What I would love is one of these that lets you chain your VPN.
E.g. I want a 10 chain VPN proxy, here is my API keys for N servives, please
distribute the VPN across these.
Obviously this is a slightly different use case than just protecting against
passive monitoring, but I think it'd be cool.
------
StavrosK
Very nice! You could make the linked script a bit more prominent, but the API
key way is a good tradeoff between security and convenience. I'd still use the
script myself, but I know that most people wouldn't bother with it.
~~~
borski
We're totally OK with you using the script. :) Most people, especially those
just looking for a way to be secure without knowing anything about the command
line, was whom this tool was built for. Glad you liked it!
------
mrblues
Since the script is meant for less technical people I would advise to add a
guide on how to use the VPN
~~~
borski
There is one, actually, later in the process. This is intended to help you
through the process in real-time, I suppose.
------
sstanfie
New droplets are now being created in San Francisco datacenter instead of
Amsterdam.
------
dietsprite
Can you use these services' VPN (Rackspace et al) for using BitTorrent?
~~~
bensedat
This VPN won't anonymize any traffic, just encrypt the traffic between you and
the server. The Rackspace account would be tied to you, so any piracy-type
violations will go to them first, which they will pass along to you.
------
nblavoie
You're abusing your refcode in the DO link. DO prohibits this linking.
~~~
borski
We got it cleared with them first. In fact, they're the ones who told us to do
it; originally that link contained no refcode.
------
unepipe
Why not just use Sidestep?
~~~
pbhjpbhj
[http://chetansurpur.com/projects/sidestep/](http://chetansurpur.com/projects/sidestep/)
:
>"Sidestep is an open-source application for Mac OS X that sits quietly in the
background, protecting your security and privacy as you browse the web."
>[...]
>"When Sidestep detects you connecting to an unprotected wireless network, it
automatically encrypts all of your Internet traffic and reroutes it through a
secure connection to a server of your choosing, which acts as your Internet
proxy. And it does all this in the background so that you don’t even notice
it."
------
just3ws
Did they take the site down? The link is 404'ing.
~~~
bensedat
Sorry about that! Things should be working again now :)
~~~
just3ws
Thanks! I was able to get to it via the blog post link. Just configured my own
VPN. Been meaning to do that for a while and was already planning to use
DigitalOcean. Thanks for the boostrapping!
~~~
just3ws
Okay, followed the script but the VPN won't connect to the internet. :( Even
blew away the first build of the VPN server and rebuilt from scratch, no dice.
:(
------
scottydelta
Isn't setting up a ssh tunnel easier?
~~~
revelation
This relies on properly configuring all relevant software to use the SSH
tunnel as a proxy. That's very difficult to do in a way that you don't end up
leaking information over the real connection.
OpenVPN works on a lower level and just tells the operating system to use it
as a gateway (as configured here) and every software will magically start
routing traffic over it. This is generally what you want for security, but can
be annoying for bandwidth or latency sensitive applications.
------
coherentpony
ssh -D port host
------
inanov
sochi sells.
------
ekianjo
"vpns are too painful to set up for everyone else"
Its been a long time i did not not see as much bullshit. In linux, its as
simple as going into the vpn tab of your connections, entering your username,
password and crt file, and you are done.
~~~
xur17
They are referring to the server side of the setup process, which is painful.
~~~
kh_hk
Just use tinc
[http://www.tinc-vpn.org/](http://www.tinc-vpn.org/)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
NBCOlympics’ Opening Ceremony Tape Delay: Stupid, Stupid, Stupid - rythie
http://techcrunch.com/2012/07/27/nbc-olympic-opening-ceremony/
======
ComputerGuru
My problem isn't just the delay, it's the fact that they were pretending the
rest of the world does not exist.
The NBC "newscasters" were _lying_ on air, saying things like "the big
question now is who will be lighting the olympic torch," "the opening ceremony
_will begin_ in 2 hours" (when it was already over!), "in three hours time,
the debate will be on as to whether the London or Beijing ceremony was nicer,
we have the world has no idea what surprises are in store," and so on and so
forth. They're deliberately misleading their viewers, and it's disgusting.
~~~
nicksergeant
Weren't the "newscasters" actually in London while the ceremonies were taking
place, taping there? Those statements make sense in that case.
~~~
ComputerGuru
No, I'm talking about the local newscasters. I'm in Chicago, these were
newscasters people here in the city.
~~~
eswangren
I think it's fair to assume that a Chicago news caster is speaking primarily
to an American audience. Specifically, a Chicago audience. So even in that
context they weren't being misleading. Relax a bit.
~~~
jack-r-abbit
Just like everyone on the East Coast forgets the West Coast exists when it
comes times for New Years Eve.
------
btilly
It is stupider than that.
Anyone who wants can get access to their streaming web. Just give them who
your cable provider is, and your user name and password to that account so
that they can verify that it is you.
OK. What about people like me? I wouldn't mind seeing some of the Olympics. I
would like to show it to my son. But I never watch TV, and I do not have a
subscription to any TV cable service. Can't I, I don't know, PAY THEM to get
access to this 2 week event? Or maybe they can MAKE ME SIT THROUGH ADS to get
it?
Apparently not. There is no such option. I'll just have to track down a friend
who trusts me and has a cable account to login on my computer so that I can
watch. Or else find an illegal stream. Or else just not watch.
~~~
ryannielsen
Well, if you're willing to pay, couldn't you sign up for cable for one month?
I agree, it's not our ideal and it's more overhead for you since you'll need
to deal with installation, but it's not like it's impossible to pay to see the
Olympics.
~~~
btilly
If I sign up for cable for one month, it will take several days before I
actually get it, and then who knows how much longer before I wind up able to
login through their process. What portion of the Olympics will I have missed?
Borrowing someone else's account seems more likely to happen.
~~~
ryannielsen
Well, you could have planned ahead... it's not like this situation cropped up
spontaneously. I bet months ago you knew the Olympics were starting today and
you knew you didn't have a way to view them. Not judging or accusing, just
sayin'.
~~~
blueski
I did this last time around. A guy had to come to my house, lay cable and
leave a box under my TV - only so I could take it all back a month later.
Comcast have have spammed me with roughly two "come back" letters a month ever
since.
It blows my mind that in 2012 NBC won't take my money to let me watch this
online. Presumably they think it's enough to make me buy a cable subscription.
They're wrong. I just searched around and watched a glitchy pirated feed -
wishing all the time they'd let me pay them $5-$10 for the real thing.
------
hardtke
I just watched the pirated BBC broadcast. I felt like something was missing,
and then I figured it out. The stupid thing is that Americans are forced to
watch the Olympics with 20 minutes of commercials per hour, while the rest of
the world gets to watch it nearly commercial free. Why does the US citizen pay
for the entire Olympics through the annoyance of commercials?
~~~
balac
The BBC is not free, in the UK everyone with a TV has to pay a yearly fee for
it, you get ads because you don't pay the fee.
~~~
gibybo
How much is the fee? I suspect if given the choice between fee or commercials,
many would choose the fee. Sadly that choice doesn't exist here (in the US) :/
~~~
andyjohnson0
£145.50 (US$228) per year. About £0.40 (US$0.65) per day.
Excellent value in my opinion.
~~~
mike_esspe
And if you don't pay, you'll get regular visits from TV licensing agents:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television_licensing_in_the_Uni...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television_licensing_in_the_United_Kingdom#Licence_fee_enforcement)
~~~
rcgs
* If you don't pay and watch live TV.
You can choose not to have a TV and not pay the license. Without the license
you can still watch BBC iPlayer (although not the live bit).
~~~
teamonkey
Believe me, you still get visits and threatening letters from the TV licencing
people.
~~~
halfasleep
You just need to fill in the form at <https://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/no-
licence-needed/> every three years. I've done that before and it's stopped the
letters.
~~~
teamonkey
It didn't work for me, they still sent threatening letters every few weeks
that all but accused me of lying.
I love the BBC (even though I didn't always own a TV) but in my experience the
TV licencing company are bullying scum.
------
mtkd
Another article referencing 'Sir Tim Berners-Lee, founder of the Internet' -
expect better from Techcrunch.
Internet != World Wide Web
~~~
nekojima
CTV coverage in Canada titled him on-screen as the "Founder of the World Wide
Web" then the commentator called him the Father of the Internet... so half
marks, if possible.
------
reaganing
Tennis fans regularly suffer this same nonsense from NBC every year with the
French Open and Wimbledon[^1]. I can't see them changing anytime soon.
Relatedly, their whole cable TV package requirements for online streaming is
also very annoying. It requires having a package with both CNBC and MSNBC to
get access. I still actually have a cable TV package, but my provider does not
offer MSNBC on any of their packages so I'm out of luck.
Thankfully, there's the Yankees/Red Sox this weekend so I'll watch that
instead.
[^1]: Thankfully ESPN bought the rights to Wimbledon starting this year. Maybe
they (or parent, Disney) could do the same with the Olympics once the rights
are up for grabs again.
------
tzs
NBC is providing live streaming on the web and via iOS and Android apps of
every event, for free to people who have a cable, satellite, or telco TV
package that includes CNBC and MSNBC. They are also providing on-demand access
so you don't have to watch live.
For many people, they won't even have to log in to access this, as they have
worked with some providers to automatically recognize IP addresses as belong
to people whose accounts qualify.
So they didn't include the opening ceremony. It seems pretty nit-picky to
focus on that and ignore the massive effort they've done to provide the live
coverage of everything else.
~~~
btilly
_NBC is providing live streaming on the web and via iOS and Android apps of
every event, for free to people who have a cable, satellite, or telco TV
package that includes CNBC and MSNBC._
s/for free/only/
I tried to find an option for people who do not choose to have TV. I failed.
------
mynameishere
In 2008 anyone with an internet connection could watch any event and replay
any event. And that was without the obnoxious commentary that accompanies most
TV broadcasts. I really enjoyed some of the longer events like the bike road
races for their silent, almost Zen qualities. Won't happen this time.
Now, I have to use a UK proxy to see it, and it's got the usual idiots
yammering over the action.
~~~
hackinthebochs
Oh yes, that was godly. It seriously should be the standard for any big
sporting event. It's sad to see that NBC has regressed so badly from the
standard set in 08.
------
robomartin
Well, companies such as Google need to start buying broadcast rights and put
it all on the 'net. I am sure they can make far more money online than NBC
ever pulls out of their advertisers. For one thing, these days lots of people
DVR shows not just for convenience but to skip the commercials. I sure do. I'd
rather watch something 30 to 45 minutes after the fact than have to endure the
obtrusive commercials.
~~~
eurleif
If Google put the Olympics online with its own commercials (I assume that's
how they would monetize it?), why would you stop watching your commercial-free
DVR recording in favor of Google's broadcast?
~~~
robomartin
Far more convenient. Better quality. I get to watch what I want vs. egocentric
American coverage. I get to watch it on my schedule. I get to watch it on
different devices. I can even watch it on the road or while camping. I'd
probably even get to watch it in different languages (granted, not so
applicable to the London event) The ads might even be relevant.
And, in general, I prefer to support 'net-based entertainment vs. broadcast
because, well, they suck.
There are probably more reasons beyond these.
~~~
w1ntermute
> I get to watch what I want vs. egocentric American coverage.
Believe it or not, the mainstream American audience _wants_ to see egocentric
American coverage - they enjoy it.
~~~
robomartin
> Believe it or not, the mainstream American audience wants to see egocentric
> American coverage - they enjoy it.
Probably true. I hate it.
Don't get me wrong, I love to see how our athletes are doing. I simply don't
enjoy the cultural isolation and exclusionist coverage that our media pushes
on us. Here's an opportunity to learn about others and we get fed a typical
short-attention-span American egocentric media diet.
This becomes very evident once you travel around the world, look back at the
US and make some comparisons.
When it comes to the Olympics, World Cup or other events it is also
particularly bothersome because the US is made-up of hundreds of cultures that
have come together to adopt this nation. This does not mean that Afgani-
Americans or Chilean-Americans don't not want to see how the teams or athletes
from their native soil are doing. Events like the Olympic Games are
opportunities to honor the many cultures that form this nation by, at the very
least, providing reasonable exposure to their athletes and stories as well.
This is where online coverage could be so far ahead of typical network stuff.
You get to watch what you want.
Another thing that doesn't sit will with me is when accident reports go
something like "139 people, three Americans". OK, I get it, you are trying to
tell our country that three of ours got lost in the accident. However, for
some reason, these reports always sound like they don't respect the rest of
those lost in the accident. I surely can't be the only one who feels this way.
Finally, why are NFL or NBA teams "World Champions" when the competition is
national?
~~~
harshreality
_e.g. "139 people, three Americans"_
It's important to know to what degree an attack entangles the United States,
politically speaking. Everyone's life is beyond value, philosophically
speaking, but U.S. political response depends on how many Americans were
involved. Therefore, it makes sense to report that number to United States
viewers.
~~~
eurleif
To what extent might this be a self-fulfilling prophecy?
------
stevvooe
I've effectively boycotted as I have no legal means of watching the events.
Way to make another institution irrelevant to my generation, big media. Enjoy
your profits while they last.
------
cypherpunks01
Does anyone know what ended up happening to BitTorrent Live
(live.bittorrent.com)?
Creating a swarm of video streamers would've been a good technology fit for
filling this role, from what I read about the protocol awhile back.
~~~
agravier
I use SopCast for that, it works well. There is an android client that works
very well for me.
------
josephlord
Having watched the first half live on the BBC in the UK it wasn't as
embarrassing as I feared. The 3D version was pretty good, it worked better
than many things.
Is NBC offering the 3D version in the US?
------
mattvot
See <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR6OZ_x7QqM> for the first hour and 20
from the BBC broadcast.
~~~
mattvot
never mind, Olympic Committee, UMG and EMI have taking it down a few seconds
after I posted this.
------
RobMcCullough
The sense of entitlement in the last few Olympics related posts is really
getting obnoxious. Granted the article here makes a good point about it being
silly to live tweet an event that is not being broadcast. But, everyone
commenting seems to think watching the Olympics for free is a god given right.
I am excited that, unlike the NFL, MLB, and other professional sporting
events, the live-streaming capability provided to NBC subscribers is actually
quite thorough and high quality.
------
Vivtek
Hungarian TV showed it straight through, no ads (and free) ( _and_ live) but
still had the damn commentators talking through all the music. Why do they
think that adds anything? It drove me bananas.
------
da_n
I am a citizen of Team GB and feel your pain. NBC are idiots.
------
Zaheer
Who's ready for Google Fiber? :)
------
tkahn6
Well here's my attempt at doing something marginally useful. The only thing I
could really think of. I generally am ambivalent about these media blunders
because I don't watch TV... but I was really looking forward to the Opening
Ceremonies.
[http://www.change.org/petitions/international-olympic-
commit...](http://www.change.org/petitions/international-olympic-committee-no-
longer-permit-nbc-to-bid-on-the-broadcasting-rights-to-the-olympic-games)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Show HN: Lego, a fast static site generator built in JavaScript - misterxi
https://astronomersiva.github.io/lego/
======
misterxi
Released v3 of lego, a JavaScript based static site generator.
Supports Liquid and Nunjucks for templates and Markdown for posts, and YML, JS
and JSON for data. Produces an optimised website as the output.
My own site, which has about 84 pages takes under a second to start a
development server and about 40 seconds to run a production build(asset
minification and versioning, HTML minification, inlining critical CSS, sitemap
generation, etc.).
Do take a look!
~~~
qmmmur
Why would I use this over pelican, Hugo, jekyll, 11ty? Asking sincerely as I'm
looking to create my dissertation in a Web based format.
~~~
misterxi
Pelican and Jekyll - Optimising the output is bit hard because most of the
tools for that exist in the JS ecosystem. If you are not that concerned about
stuff like inlining critical CSS, image optimisation, CSS and JS traspilation,
these could be good choices.
Hugo - Pretty much the same issues with Jekyll and Pelican, and the templating
language also leaves a lot to be desired. If build speed is paramount to you,
choose this.
11ty - I just benchmarked lego against this and it looks like there is only a
couple ms difference performance wise. The only real difference is that 11ty
lets the users configure everything and decide what kind of optimisations they
want(or if at all they want it).
lego supports the templating languages of both Pelican and Jekyll and is
reasonably fast as well. It also optimises the output build as much as
possible. If at all you decide to use it, please share your feedback.
Another important factor, in your case, might be the availability of
templates. Pelican, Hugo and Jekyll should have readymade templates for most
use cases and should save you time spent on designing the layouts, writing
CSS, etc. I am not sure if 11ty has such an ecosystem. lego definitely doesn't
have any templates and you might want to factor that in your decision.
I hope this answers your question. Also, all the best with your dissertation
:)
~~~
qmmmur
Thanks for your response. As you alluded to, I found a theme for Hugo that
worked out of the box for what I needed (essentially a book format). I don't
need much customisation on the layout and my main focus is reducing
development time implementing different kinds of content in an easy to
structure manner.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
What Is Wireless Charging Good For? - vermilingua
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/03/technology/personaltech/wireless-charging-pros-cons.html
======
byoung2
If you have a waterproof phone and you get it wet (I am an avid jet skier),
the charging port will not work for several hours afterward (moisture detected
warning). A wireless charging pad is a must for these situations.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
$2 Test Identified Bird Shit as Cocaine. Cops Keep Using It to Arrest People - kyleblarson
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/evj89n/this-dollar2-test-identified-bird-shit-as-cocaine-cops-keep-using-it-to-arrest-people
======
Simulacra
There should be penalties for false arrests; mandatory payouts to victims for
starters. If the state suddenly has to start paying out $150,000 a pop every
time someone is falsely arrested, then they will fix these tests.
~~~
shalmanese
In America, there really isn't a concept of false arrests. There is a "not
guilty" verdict but not an "innocent" verdict. If you're forcing states to pay
out in the case of not guilty verdicts, then you're introducing a whole new
host of bizarre incentives.
~~~
snagglegaggle
There are already incentives to arrest as many people as possible.
~~~
squarefoot
Exactly. Prisons are just like hotels: keep them constantly full and money
will keep coming, no matter from where.
------
notlukesky
Law enforcement has incentives to arrest as they are then seen to be doing
their job. There are incentives for false positives and no penalties for
wrongful imprisonment. Also related:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_rate_fallacy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_rate_fallacy)
------
cannonedhamster
If the tests are so inconclusive wouldn't that mean police officers are
depriving people of their constitutional rights to freedom of movement? There
have to be counter suits and either this company or the police force are
liable for false imprisonment.
~~~
pstuart
Cops are, with rare exception, ever held liable for their abuses of power.
Lawsuits are payed by the taxpayers, so they have zero incentive to behave
legally.
~~~
ceejayoz
Yup. A particularly egregious case:
[https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20190909/12232742945/ninth...](https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20190909/12232742945/ninth-
circuit-upholds-previous-declaration-that-cops-stealing-your-stuff-doesnt-
violate-constitution.shtml)
The Ninth Circuit:
"We recognize that the allegation of any theft by police officers - most
certainly the theft of over $225,000 - is deeply disturbing. Whether that
conduct violates the Fourth Amendment's prohibition on unreasonable searches
and seizures, however, would not "be 'clear to a reasonable officer.'""
Note: Theft! Not asset forfeiture, but actual theft!
~~~
pytester
It gets worse than stealing:
[https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/oct/06/witness-
in-a...](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/oct/06/witness-in-amber-
guyger-case-found-shot-dead-in-dallas)
"authorities have not identified a suspect or determined a motive."
Internal affairs clearly isn't a thing in the US. Or, if it is, it's a thing
that doesn't work, coz when the witness of somebody getting murdered by a cop
gets murdered in suspicious circumstances then it's _not all that hard_ to
identify a motive.
------
bilbo0s
Well, they let that one, _particular_ , suspect off when the test was caught
failing in that very public fashion.
So, I mean, in they're view, they probably figure that they, well,
"Fixed the Glitch":
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUE0PPQI3is](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUE0PPQI3is)
Other people's constitutional rights will likely be violated, but hey, "these
things work themselves out" right?
/end sarcasm
How do people live with themselves when they _knowingly_ implement shoddy
products and processes like these that literally ruin peoples' lives? It's
crazy.
~~~
buckminster
They might think, well, it's not as bad as a fake bomb detector.
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADE_651](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADE_651)
~~~
OrgNet
It's not as bad as police dogs that 'find' things on-command, by the real
police officer, to give him/her probable cause to search your car/etc...
------
adolph
Not to defend policing in general, but shouldn’t this community recognize the
recursive set of tradeoffs here?
Tests can rarely be both sensitive and specific. This test might have more
Type I errors so it doesn’t commit Type II.
Likewise, a police officer is in the same dilemma. Are you really not going to
arrest even though the test you were told to use came up positive?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensitivity_and_specificity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensitivity_and_specificity)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_I_and_type_II_errors](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_I_and_type_II_errors)
~~~
HarryHirsch
You need to be arrested for birdshit or sugar doughnuts (that happened, too),
and then we can talk again.
~~~
adolph
Or cat litter, or detergent or any other pretext, but wouldn’t my experience
bias me?
If a society is to accept false positives then it follows that the arrest
process would be less difficult and stigmatizing than it is in most places.
Unfortunately, “the law is an ass” as they say.
[https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/the_law_is_an_ass](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/the_law_is_an_ass)
------
dogma1138
Most forensic tests are quite broad including GSR and blood residue.
It’s not about what else they trigger on but how likely that this would be the
case in a set of controlled circumstances.
A cocaine test that triggers on bird poop is still completely acceptable
unless carrying bags of powdered guano is the new rage these days.
Same thing with a GSR test that may be triggered with certain other chemicals,
you only get reasonable doubt when there is a good explanation why would
you’ve been exposed to those chemicals nominally.
BTW medical tests aren’t that different, it’s up to the doctors to make sure
they exclude all other possible explanations besides what they are testing for
and we don’t really complain.
------
edoo
"They’re often not admissible in court, which is why police have to order
follow-up testing from a lab." \- whoa so you can be arrested based on
evidence that is known to be inadmissible in the first place.
~~~
Fjolsvith
The test shows reasonable doubt of your innocence.
~~~
edoo
But there is reasonable doubt of the test. That logic could have you arrested
for being the false positive from an algorithm.
~~~
ceejayoz
There's a "beyond a reasonable doubt" requirement for conviction, not arrests.
------
oi-pilot
Haven't seen much people with bird shit in their pockets.
~~~
tbyehl
Plenty of people drive around with bird shit on their car tho.
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/08/09/young-
bla...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/08/09/young-black-
football-player-was-arrested-after-claiming-cocaine-his-car-was-bird-poop-it-
was-bird-poop/)
~~~
adjkant
How this doesn't get these cops fired for trying to falsely arrest someone
using a test they likely know is flawed is insane (who would ever look at a
white spot on the top of a car and think "yep that's cocaine"??). If there was
any sense and lack of lobbying by police unions in the US it would be an easy
priority to draft better laws on actions of cops.
~~~
tbyehl
In this instance, it's hard not to question the intelligence of a police
officer thinking a white spot on the outside of a car might be drugs.
But overall, in the War on Some Substances, anything goes. Blame needs to
start at the top. It's not like the cop purchased these widely-discredited
field tests on their own.
------
kd3
To understand why cops get away with this crap look up the origin of the
police AKA slave patrol.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Problems looking for solutions - olalonde
http://webapps.stackexchange.com/unanswered
======
ultrasaurus
Some of these seem like genuine weekend problems:
[http://webapps.stackexchange.com/questions/6841/is-there-
a-w...](http://webapps.stackexchange.com/questions/6841/is-there-a-way-to-see-
tweets-from-only-people-who-follow-on-twitter)
------
tjsnyder
This is actually a really neat find an an excellent source of inspiration.
------
ambirex
Although, the best problems to solve are you're own problems. Still
interesting to see what people are looking to do.
------
defrex
Perhaps event better: <http://webapps.stackexchange.com/?tab=featured>
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Apple's Tim Cook says 'I'm sorry' to Chinese customers - nekojima
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21996134
======
nekojima
Whether Cook means he is "sorry" or not, this type of kowtowing is what is
required in mainland China in situations like this. Otherwise the corporate
harassment would continue until products are banned, stores closed, or
unilateral changes are forced on Apple by a government agency.
A quick Skype poll of mainland friends (as opposed to expat friends) in China
found that of those who had Apple products, none said they'd ever had a
problem with Apple's repair policies inside China. The problems were more
likely with customers returning fake or far too out-of-warranty repair issues.
Chatting on the weekend to the Director of Marketing for a major local
electronics firm in China, he felt it was a politically inspired anti-
foreigner campaign and was sure other foreign brands would be harassed for
their perceived "arrogance" in the coming weeks and months.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
San Francisco Hacker News meetup happening this Thursday - lowglow
Hi Everyone,<p>I'm organizing a SFHN meetup this Thursday, November 29th. It will be at the Coderwall offices on 480 2nd Street, Suite 302 from 6pm-8pm.<p>Refreshments will be provided!<p>-<p>Please RSVP at http://sfhn.eventbrite.com/
and join our FB group at https://www.facebook.com/groups/gosfhn
======
lowglow
Clickable: <http://sfhn.eventbrite.com/>
<https://www.facebook.com/groups/gosfhn>
~~~
JammuHendrix
I hit waitlist when I RSVP. Can I still drop by?
~~~
lowglow
Yes. I just opened up more tickets.
------
hunvreus
I'll be there with 2 colleagues from Shanghai where we've been organizing a HN
meetup every month for the past year and a half (<http://shanghaihn.org/>).
~~~
lowglow
I'm interested to find out what your format is and what has been working for
you guys. Please find me when you arrive so we can chat. Your site looks
great, btw. Happy to have our Shanghai HNers represent!
~~~
ienumerable
I went to a number of LA HN meetups organized by andrewvc that went really
well. You might want to ping him for tips...
Usually we had some socializing/networking time, followed by 1-2 lightning
talks and one longer talk, followed by more socializing.
------
aclimatt
Looking forward to seeing everybody there. How many spots were available?
------
tylermenezes
Nice to see these spreading to SF! I used to go to the ones in Seattle. You
might want to consider creating an event on Meetup, it's tended to work better
for us for recurring events like these should hopefully become.
~~~
lowglow
Thanks for the advice. I went ahead and made a meetup group for anyone
inclined <http://www.meetup.com/San-Francisco-Hacker-News-Meetup/>
------
donebizkit
Great. I am in. I just moved to SF and need some community friction.
~~~
lowglow
Awesome! Can't wait to meet you.
------
davecyen
Thanks for organizing. Free is very appreciated. Sounds like format/agenda is
still in the works, any possibility of posting a rough idea of what to expect
before would be sweet.
~~~
lowglow
Since this meetup is the first of many to come, I plan on using this as an
opportunity to meet, greet, and strengthen the community.
I'll talk with people about formats and perhaps send a survey out afterwards.
I'd like something that really helps the community without people ever feeling
like something is being sold to them.
The meetup should be pure, constructive, and hopefully everyone can grow a
little more because of it.
------
snikolic
I'm in. Just moved to SF and ready to meet some awesome new folks!
------
magicarp
Psyched to meet some HNers in SF!
------
nicw
Signed up, looking forward! Managed to get a 'pending' ticket that was dropped
by a fellow HNer. Thanks, whoever you are.
------
pdufour
Sweet, just registered.
------
suyash
Btw can you change the name of FB group from San Francisco to SF Bay
Area..since most people don't live in the city but surrounding areas?
~~~
geofft
For those of us who do live in the city, it's good to know whether an event is
actually in San Francisco, which means I can get to it by bike or public
transit in the evening, or generically somewhere in the Bay Area, which would
probably be fine for someone who lived generically elsewhere in the Bay Area
and had a car, but not for me. So the distinction is semantically meaningful.
------
iwaffles
See you guys there!
------
suyash
Awesome...more meetups in Bay Area!
------
DanielRibeiro
Great! Being one block away from home/work, there is absolutely no excuse for
me not to go.
------
necubi
Wow, got one of the last spots after only 47 minutes. Maybe a larger venue is
warranted?
~~~
lowglow
I'm not sure if everyone that RSVPs will show up. If we reach capacity at this
event, I'll plan to have the next one at a larger venue.
Either way, I bumped up the number of available tickets.
------
nthitz
What goes on at these meetups?
~~~
lowglow
The idea is that no matter how small the scene may seem, we all need a good
excuse to get out and meet more awesome people.
This event will give us all a good opportunity to talk about projects, expand
our network, and hopefully learn something cool.
------
nodesocket
Can't make this one, but certainly interested in attending the next.
~~~
lowglow
We'll try to make these monthly or bimonthly depending on demand.
~~~
nodesocket
Nice. Thanks for organizing.
------
lsiebert
Damn, I'm in class then. Next time.
------
noinput
Looking forward to it!
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
FriendBinder Launched - rythie
http://blog.friendbinder.com/2009/09/friendbinder-launched.html
======
joshu
Adult FriendBinder?
------
j2d2
What makes this one better than the similar services that already exist?
------
ssn
Is it like FriendFeed? What differs?
~~~
rythie
It automatically gets your friends from the various networks and the replies
go back to those networks in the same way twitter clients work - though for
multiple networks.
I.e. it's not a social network like FriendFeed is - it's a client.
~~~
karanbhangui
I've had the idea to do this type of a site for a while, but realized backtype
kinda does (did, not sure after their rebrand) this already. How does friend
binder differ?
~~~
rythie
backtype looks like a search engine to me - we are focused on what your
friends are doing.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Robert Scoble's Galaxy S II vs iPhone 4S camera test - nextparadigms
https://plus.google.com/photos/111091089527727420853/albums/5663472490008529457
======
obeattie
This a dreadful comparison. There is nothing to show depth of field; there's
no comparison between performance in low-light and harsh-light conditions; no
comparison between flashes. All-in-all, pretty useless.
~~~
product50
Unfortunately, that is typical of Robert Scoble. You should have been warned
before you clicked on that link.
~~~
watmough
mostlylisa on Twitter, of the taptaptap people I think, put out the following
link:
<http://campl.us/f349>
Not a comparison, but it really does show that the iPhone4S camera is pretty
damn good.
------
tofu
Why does the iPhone 4 photo look the sharpest? Probably just shaky hands?
~~~
listrophy
Probably shaky hands indeed.
While not indicative of real-world use, comparison shots like this, IMHO,
should be done with a stand... unless the only variable being tested is
"likelihood of shakiness due to camera(phone) form factor."
~~~
rauljara
I generally agree with you, except in this case one of the specs they touted
in the iPhone announcement event was capture speed. It captures much faster
than the iPhone 4, and would be a good explanation as to why the 4s appears
less shaky.
~~~
tofu
I don't think capture speed has any effect on the sharpness of the image,
sharpness is more down to the lens/shutter speed, I'm assuming the "speed"
touted by Apple refers to the startup time of the camera app as well as the
responsiveness of the UI and the ability to take consecutive shots faster.
Looking at the shots again, it does seem that the sharpest image, that of the
original iPhone 4, is also the noisiest, iPhone4 autoexposure set it to high-
iso/fast shutter I suppose?
~~~
iliis
Yes, that's definitely the cause here. The iPhone 4 Picture is much darker,
meaning it was made with a higher shutter speed and therefore is much shaper
when holding it by hand. If you have a good camera lying around you can try it
out by playing with iso/aperture/shutter-speed: Make two pictures in a
dark(ish) place, one with low speed and low iso, the other with high speed and
high iso (but same aperture). Depending on how dark it actually is and how
steady your hands are, you'll see a big difference in sharpness.
The other thing are the colors, which seem much better in Samsung's picture.
This, too, has nothing per se to do with the quality of the camera but it's
settings. This time it's the white balance that's different. This is one of
the things, where camera automatics are still often wrong. A small change of
the subject can cause big differences. Moving a few centimeters more to the
left is enough...
Again, you can try that with a "real" camera. A DSLR will let you choose the
color temperature, but even cheap digital cameras have sometimes different
modi for "sunlight"/"cloudy"/"artificial light". I won't go into details here
(see [1]), sufficient to say that this can greatly affect a picture.
Also note that the picture from the Galayx II and the one from the iPhone 4S
have roughly the same brightness and sharpness. Judging from the noise and
resolution, the two cameras seem quite similiar (and are maybe even produced
by the same factory).
_TL;DR_ This comparison is not meaningful at all. For a professional result
you would need to control the cameras completely manual and take a lot more
pictures in different settings (light, reference colors, tripod, ...).
[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_balance>
EDIT: He actually made more than these three:
<https://secure.flickr.com/photos/scobleizer>
~~~
starwed
> _For a professional result you would need to control the cameras completely
> manual and take a lot more pictures in different settings (light, reference
> colors, tripod, ...)._
Well, it's also worthwhile testing how well the automatic settings work --
that's how most folk will use the phone.
(All I really want in a camera phone is non-shitty low-light photos.)
------
codenerdz
The really bad quality of iPhone 4S shot may be due to his hands shaking, we
really wouldnt know untill somebody uses a tripod to do comparative shots.
Nice thing about Galaxy S2 software though is that you can specify ISO,
focusing type as well as use a timer to deal with "shakiness" of the shot. In
less than ideal light situations, Galaxy suffers from shutter lag, i havent
tested the iphone picture taking that much though.
------
phatbyte
The iphone4S seems more yellowish but it's more detailed when you look the
book words. You can't barely read any on the Galaxy unlike on iphone4S.
~~~
barrkel
They are focused on different points. The Galaxy is focused closer than the
4S; the details on the Belkin card reader (in particular, the edge contacts in
the slots) are clearer on the Galaxy, and the difference is even more marked
on the keyboard letters. The Galaxy also has a higher exposure. On the book
paper, the lack of focus combined with overexposure has causing some bleed
into the type; but it shows better detail in shadow areas.
Much of a muchness, IMO. The two are very close, and aside from things like
color temperature (which I personally would discount and tweak later if
desired - though I wonder if the white balance is configurable on either
phone), they are all but equal.
------
tvon
Full size photos on flickr: <http://www.flickr.com/photos/scobleizer>
His stream, which has some other test photos with commentary:
<https://plus.google.com/111091089527727420853/posts>
~~~
barrkel
The full-size photos are available through the "download photo" link under the
actions menu in Google+.
------
veyron
Who exactly is robert scoble, and what is his claim to fame? His name seems to
come up somewhat frequently
~~~
blauwbilgorgel
I believe this is called the "Robert Scoble"-effect. One could liken it to
social media spam: I don't want to know Robert Scoble, don't find him notable,
yet his name appears everywhere.
Such people know how to insert themselves in the daily conversations and can
count on the support of their followers to carry their views far and beyond.
Most of the time those views are not much more than a catchy social hook. You
Googling his name and reading this reply will likely cement Robert Scoble in
your brain for a while longer.
I find it an interesting, albeit at times annoying, phenomenon. Like the Quora
drama (in which Scoble was able to permeate into a lot of topics):
[http://scobleizer.com/2011/01/30/why-i-was-wrong-about-
quora...](http://scobleizer.com/2011/01/30/why-i-was-wrong-about-quora-as-a-
blogging-service/)
[http://www.quora.com/Dan-Kaplan/Sorry-Scoble-Quora-is-not-
yo...](http://www.quora.com/Dan-Kaplan/Sorry-Scoble-Quora-is-not-your-
playground)
~~~
drzaiusapelord
>I believe this is called the "Robert Scoble"-effect.
Heh, I love that. I'm going to use it.
------
arkitaip
iPhone 4S produces more accurate colors. Overall, I'm delighted how great the
image quality if for all cell phones; astonishing how far we've come in just a
few years.
~~~
jsnk
How do you tell that iPhone 4S has more accurate colors without actually
seeing the real objects?
~~~
sjs
Maybe he has the same keyboard and has seen a can of Diet Pepsi before. It's
not hard to imagine that being true.
I think that the 4S shot is too red/yellow compared to the Galaxy II. This
sort of comparison is pretty subjective though.
(aside for evanwalsh: for the record I hate my Nexus One and have a 4S on the
way)
~~~
stewbrew
Does he also have the same light/lamp/bulb?
Without making sure parameters & the software used were the same, such a
casual comparison doesn't seems too useful to me.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Show HN: My Android App - Quotes - europa
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.quotes.app
======
zethus
You should consider grabbing the 4.0 UI Kit
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Comments more like slander than libel - astrec
http://www.mathewingram.com/work/2008/09/04/comments-more-like-slander-than-libel/
======
blogimus
One wrinkle in calling defamatory online comments slander rather than libel is
that even though the comment is made offhand and then the discussion "moves
on" (not formally thought out as a "publication"), there is still a written
record left behind. So in that respect, it is more like libel, unless the
record left behind is considered more like a tape/video recording than a
written account.
~~~
raganwald
It's true that there is a permanent record, but the judge's ruling focused on
how people perceive the comments. In this case, consider two bloggers Alice
and Betty. If Alice writes something and Betty posts a comment on Alice's
blog, the judge eems to be saying this is more casual than if Betty posts her
reply on her own blog.
It will be fun figuring out where "Ask HN," Twitter, and Tumblr fit in all of
this.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
AWS S3 Having Problems Again? (Monday 12PM Pacific) - RyanGWU82
We're seeing similar problems to last night -- lots of 503s from S3. Anyone else?
======
wbharding
Indeed. As I write this we're in the midst of our third S3 outage of the day.
The past two were eventually documented on the AWS Service Dashboard. The
latest one has not yet received its tiny status icon to indicate an outage.
It's one thing that S3 keeps going down today; we run our own server cluster
and I accept that 100% uptime isn't possible. But it's aggravating that they
can't at least figure out how to give timely updates on their dashboard when
something is broken.
We inevitably learn of S3 outages through our internal error reporting systems
before AWS posts it to their status page. When they do finally post, it is
usually a tiny "information" icon, even when reporting a problem that makes
the service unusable. The laggy, misleading nature of their status page gives
the impression they must be tying bonuses to the status icons. Can't fathom
why else they would be so inept when it comes to keeping us updated when
something is wrong. Surely they have sufficient internal monitoring to pick up
on these outages long before they update their customers.
~~~
ceejayoz
It shouldn't be, but I've found
[https://twitter.com/ylastic](https://twitter.com/ylastic) by far the best way
to find early info on AWS issues.
------
KenCochrane
From Amazon:
"Hello, We have just become aware of EC2 network connectivity issues in the
US-EAST-1 region. The impact of this issue is loss of network connectivity to
EC2 instances in US-EAST-1. The AWS support and engineering teams are actively
working on bringing closure to this issue. I will share additional information
as soon as I learn more about this issue."
------
dkuebric
Yep, same. Lots of latency too--here's what we're seeing:
[http://kuebri.ch/bucket/s3_latency_081015.png](http://kuebri.ch/bucket/s3_latency_081015.png)
~~~
zeeta6
What tool is that?
~~~
dkuebric
[http://www.appneta.com/products/traceview/](http://www.appneta.com/products/traceview/)
~~~
zeeta6
Thanks
------
Negitivefrags
I'm risking being inflammatory here, but do people really believe that they
get better uptime from AWS compared to renting dedicated servers?
I feel like AWS has way too many moving parts to be stable.
It's very tempting for them to reuse bits of infrastructure everywhere which
increases the chances that if something goes wrong somewhere it will break
your stuff. So for example, hosting instance images on S3 means that when S3
has issues, now EC2 has issues.
~~~
deanCommie
AWS is so massive that even when 0.1% of the customers are having problems, it
is huge news like this.
The reality is most customers are not affected, and overall service uptime is
highest anywhere around.
Not to mention that whenever AWS is having issues it's always in one region at
a time, and frequently a single availability zone. As long as you build your
application to be AZ-tolerant, you won't run into problems.
~~~
mnutt
_The reality is most customers are not affected, and overall service uptime is
highest anywhere around._
Unfortunately it's really impossible to say in this case, since they don't
release numbers. Informally everyone I know with S3 buckets in US-Default had
issues this morning.
_As long as you build your application to be AZ-tolerant, you won 't run into
problems._
What you say about multiple AZs is true for EC2, but many other AWS services
(especially EBS-backed ones) tend to go down across the entire region. If
you're serious about availability, you really need to be in multiple regions.
------
edgan
The us-east-1 region gets treated differently than all other regions by AWS.
Part of the reason it gets treated differently it is the default, and hence
the most popular. It also doesn't help that it is on the east coast, and
experiences more weather.
For the above reasons, and that I work in the SF bay area, I put everything in
us-west-2. us-west-2 sometimes has it's own issues, but nothing quite at the
level of us-east-1.
~~~
mdellabitta
IIRC, the AWS console itself is hosted out of us-east-1. Which means you're
always somewhat exposed to whatever failure modes it has.
~~~
not_kurt_godel
This is no longer true.
------
thspimpolds
"12:28 PM PDT Between 12:03 PM to 12:19 PM PDT we experienced elevated errors
for requests made to Amazon S3 in the US-STANDARD Region. The issue has been
resolved and the service is operating normally"
Our AWS TAM called us. I don't think he wanted the nasty call I gave him at
4:30am
------
atopuzov
Amazon yet again lying to it's customers about the status of the service is
the only real issue I see here>. Services fail, it's a fact of life but at
least admit it's broken and that the issue is being fixed instead of blatantly
lying and saying minor disruptions.
~~~
eric_h
[http://status.aws.amazon.com](http://status.aws.amazon.com) appears to
indicate that they did have problems and have now resolved them.
------
bhz
We saw a short burst of 503s a short while ago, but we have not seen any
since. Hopefully we do not see any more though.
Also, for the record, S3 has been very stable for us otherwise. We have been
rather happy with AWS overall.
~~~
onyxraven
Same, though just as I write this we see another spike of errors.
~~~
bhz
Ok, no 503s but just got a very small burst of 500s,
"com.amazonaws.services.s3.model.AmazonS3Exception: Status Code: 500, AWS
Service: Amazon S3, AWS Request ID: -redacted-, AWS Error Code: InternalError,
AWS Error Message: We encountered an internal error. Please try again., S3
Extended Request ID: -redacted-"
:/
------
RyanGWU82
Looks like it got better around 12:20 PM, about 10 minutes after the incident
started. We haven't seen any problems in the last few minutes.
~~~
RyanGWU82
... and errors started up again at 1:00 PM.
------
autotune
What happened to that 99.99% availability? Either way this just got posted at
reddit.com/r/sysadmin which might be useful to some for tracking error rate:
[https://pulse.turbobytes.com/results/55c8751aecbe400bf80005f...](https://pulse.turbobytes.com/results/55c8751aecbe400bf80005f2/)
~~~
ceejayoz
Their SLA guarantees 99.9% on a monthly basis. The 99.99% mentioned on the
product page isn't guaranteed at all.
As for what happened, my money is on this: [https://aws.amazon.com/about-
aws/whats-new/2015/08/amazon-s3...](https://aws.amazon.com/about-aws/whats-
new/2015/08/amazon-s3-introduces-new-usability-enhancements/)
> You can now increase your Amazon S3 bucket limit per AWS account... Amazon
> S3 now supports read-after-write consistency for new objects added to Amazon
> S3 in US Standard region.
The 100 bucket limit used to be an absolute, unchangeable hard limit - rare
for AWS and thus likely something deep in the architecture from S3 being one
of their first services - so I suspect the lifting of that limit involved some
fairly major changes to the backend.
~~~
StabbyCutyou
They actually would let you increase that, but only up to a certain point and
only if you specifically requested it. I don't see them mention the absolute
ceiling being lifted, so that is probably still in place somewhere.
I'd wager it's more likely that read-after-write change.
------
toomuchtodo
503s galore. Is anyone seeing issues in other S3 regions?
------
arturhoo
We had problems while connecting to S3 standard US region from us-east-1 at
19UTC but it was solved 20 minutes later.
edit: seeing connectivity issues again at 19h50UTC
------
azundo
We're seeing similar symptoms here as well.
------
matwood
We have also seen a higher rate of port scans/attacks today. I wonder if it is
AWS wide causing system overload issues.
------
kordless
Interesting this article was bumped from the front page so quickly. Makes you
wonder...
------
needcaffeine
Just started again in us-east-1.
------
andrebrov
We had problems with AWS ML tonight
------
mstkrft
Same here :(
------
kernel_sanders
Same for us
------
Stovoy
Yes, seeing the same thing.
------
AnonNo15
Seeing it too. 15:00 EST
------
ronreiter
Yes, same here.
------
ninjakeyboard
bad day.
------
mej10
Yep!
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Open Sourcing Microsoft's C++ Standard Library Implementation - matt_d
https://devblogs.microsoft.com/cppblog/open-sourcing-msvcs-stl/
======
moron4hire
>> As C++ Standardization accelerates, with more large features being voted in
every year, we believe that accepting major features as open source
contributions will be important.
Translation: we believe it will be cheaper to take changes from people working
for free/on someone else's payroll than to hire more of our own developers.
~~~
m-p-3
also, everyone wins
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Gods and Robots: Myths, Machines, and Ancient Dreams of Technology - diodorus
https://spectator.us/robots-ancient-greeks-loved-alexa/
======
psiops
All this further supports the theory that the gods of old were in fact a
highly advanced civilization quite apart from but meddling with nascent human
civilization. I love that idea :).
~~~
posterboy
I think you mean out of space aliens but technically advanced messengers
bringing teachings like agricultur, writing, and metallurgy, demanding
offerings in return and keeping relative peace fits the bill just as much,
especially if the Lords ventured from places high in the sky, mountains that
is.
At a lower layer, it's just veneration of the elders, preservation of memory
through old stories traveling through time, not space.
------
madeuptempacct
I didn't read the article, but I feel like we might rapidly get to the point
where technology is magic. As arrogant as using "even" in this context sounds
- EVEN people on here generally don't understand more than a few fields. For
example, when it really comes down to it, the way pain meds work might as well
be magic to me, though I could probably sputter some scientific-sounding
explanation that I really don't understand. Same with modern computers - I can
mumble about logic gates, but the reality is that my electronics knowledge
stops at vacuum tubes, just because that's what's accessible without an
EE/chemistry specialization.
~~~
empath75
To me ‘magic’ is the gap between our internal models of the external world and
reality.
You stand before a magician, he is holding a card. You believe this to be true
because some photons entered your eyes and your mind constructed a realistic
simulation that conforms to the sensoral input.
The magician waves his hand— the card disappears — in a very real sense. The
simulation that your consciousness creates and inhabits has updated and erased
the card from your reality.
That it is in fact behind his hand and that he was able make your internal
model of reality diverge from actual reality with some words and a gesture is
what creates magic.
So how does this apply to technology — if the technology is so advanced that
your mind can’t model it’s behavior — then it perpetually creates that
divergence by merely existing. You’re always going to have to update your
mental model to account for what it does.
But I think that sort of magic is fairly temporary, because people are nothing
if not adaptable — hand an iPhone to a toddler and it’s simply another new
thing to explore and understand, no more mysterious than the light sparkling
from a glass of water or a leaf blowing in the wind.
------
agumonkey
should technology only stay at near dream state ?
------
PavlovsCat
Rant incoming.
I doubt they "would have loved Alexa" (which doesn't occur again in the body
of the article, at all). I mean, of course they would also have loved the idea
of owning slaves, but I still don't see how to get from there to Alexa, which
is beholden to Amazon, not the user.
[http://arkbooks.dk/leisure-in-ancient-greece-with-hannah-
are...](http://arkbooks.dk/leisure-in-ancient-greece-with-hannah-arendt/)
> Leisure — _skhole_ — can be seen as one of the acid tests of sorts here: In
> its positive capacity, it is a characteristic of _vita contemplativa_ as a
> specific freedom to abstain from the life of a political engagement. Its
> obverse, ‘un-quiet’ — _a-skholia_ — functioned traditionally as a negative
> term to characterise vita activa as seen from the philosophical perspective
> of ‘the absolute quiet of contemplation’.
That's kinda different from "not having to work so there's more time to
consume things, and having more money to be able to consume ever more
expensive things", which seems to the dream for many... rather than finally
having time to ponder everything, finally not having to ponder anything!
Because that is work, too. Or as a HN comment put it,
> _learning a huge amount of useless facts, [instead of] being able to look
> them up like the rest of society does_
That's the antithesis of the contemplative life. I don't think the Greeks
would have liked that, though I don't claim to know, that's just my
impression... and at any rate I disagree with them in some things, and agree
more with Arendt:
> A rehabilitation of _vita activa_ , and especially of the activity of
> action, the one defining for the human experience of freedom and for
> politics
Insofar automation and "AI" is just used by few humans to control many humans
without having to face them directly, it doesn't increase the freedom to act.
It gives "freedom" from having to be a free citizen, with the illusion of
being allowed forever to just graze on land the owners could turn into jungle
or a golf course, with the very same machines that make the masses obsolete. I
certainly don't buy that those who so far do their best to hoard and exploit
will suddenly want to share or even serve, that doesn't pass the smell test
for me.
Anyway, what's so unfathomable about making new life and treating it well and
being a good friend / parent, rather than a slave?
It's silly to talk about whether androids ( _Why androids? That 's an odd
choice of words, like seeming more human to us in shape would have anything to
do with their mental or emotional capabilities_) "can have a moral sense",
considering how we are currently using our moral sense. It's like people who
drink and fight all day, and don't have a book in the house, and keep hitting
their child on the head all the time, asking about whether it might attend
university one day. The actions kinda betray that they're not seriously
asking, they just want to be able to say "it wasn't our fault, we hoped our
child would make it".
It generally feels more like it's not even about making "another human, or
something even more human than humans", but simply robbing humans of their
humanity. We seem happy to equate showing all the right "signs of empathy"
with actually feeling it on the inside, basically adopting the the approach of
a sociopath.
> _" All you have to do is keep quiet about the failure of the Voigt-Kampff
> test here today. You and your colleagues keep going as you are, we start
> feeding Nexus Sixes into the earth population, and in a couple of years you
> make out you've suddenly discovered the test mistakes human beings for
> androids. But by then, it'll be too late to turn the clock back."_
> _" So human beings won't be able to tell themselves apart from androids."_
> _" Nor androids from human beings."_
> _" And so we forget what it really means to be human."_
> _" No fuss. Let society and its attitudes just evolve."_
This is like a car with no wheels, and some say it's for transportation, but I
say it's to block a road. If it was for transportation, why does nobody care
that it has no wheels?
What if empathy and morality isn't _just_ something that is instinctive or
selfish, something you can just "train" or get by applying "game theory", but
also the result of relationships, as they actually are, infinitely complex and
unique? Can empathy and morality exist without relationships as a person with
other person? I don't know, but would rather try that route first, not the
slave / tool route.
I mean, life can be kinda hard and confusing, it's actually really hard for
many of us, even though we have so many other people to speak with and learn
from. What will AI have? The comforting knowledge that the rights-holders are
doing great on the stock market? Or not even that, but just a bunch of data
with no inherent meaning, and people who kill each other over what is true and
what isn't? We currently live "might is right", and that combined with AI is
supposed to produce... androids with a moral sense? Wat?
And even if we give our AI other AI friends it can do more than fight with,
but still treat it like shit (which treating someone like a tool is), will it
ever have a moral sense regarding _us_? Why would it? So why not start it like
you want it to continue? Why start with vivisection, when we want to end with
some kind of soppy "love on first sight, happily ever after" story?
You don't work in a clean room to get clean. Likewise we can't make AI to
become better ourselves, we need to be better before we can make AI that is a
"person" that will want more of us than a swift mercy killing.
We ask so much what AI can do for us, precious little what it might need of
us, what could be fun for both. As Bill Hicks said, let's make a nice world to
bring children _into_.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Show HN: Census – Sync your warehouse data to any app - borisjabes
https://www.getcensus.com
======
borisjabes
We're launching a service that helps growth/ops teams get data about customers
into go-to-market tools (a HN-worthy description would be "Fivetran in
reverse"). Census connects directly to your data warehouse and syncs into apps
like Salesforce, Marketo, Google Sheets, and FB Audiences.
You can customize how data is mapped and how frequently it’s synced. You can
also use SQL to build custom views on your data. Our goal is to help you build
an effective customer data hub out of your data warehouse.
Would love to hear feedback from the HN community.
~~~
camillovisini
How does this differ from Segment‘s Persona [1] product feature?
[1]
[https://segment.com/product/personas/](https://segment.com/product/personas/)
~~~
borisjabes
That's a great question. I don't know all the features in their offering but
here's some of the ways I believe we're different off the top of my head: we
run on any data warehouse, you can use SQL to build data models, and we can
sync any kind of data, not just users. Would love to hear if you've had
experience with Personas and what you like/dislike.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
I would never send my kids to school (2017) - garaetjjte
https://supermemo.guru/wiki/I_would_never_send_my_kids_to_school
======
NikolaNovak
Have to read more to be able to comment meaningfully, but an early red flag is
distilled in this statement:
"I am looking for a formula for mass-production of little Nobel Prize winners,
researchers, engineers, and creative problem solvers"
There are _many_ potential educational systems that would do better for the
top [1|5|10]% of learners, while doing far worse for the remainder of the bell
curve (however it is defined). One has to be upfront and honest with
themselves, and audience, if the goals and proposals will benefit all overall,
or select few. I am not yet convinced that less-structured approach will
provide clear benefits for everybody :-/
~~~
spamizbad
People routinely criticize rigid schooling yet the very people they aspire to
emulate are products of such systems. The people who often struggled in such
systems (artists, athletes, celebrities) are looked down upon. Even
entrepreneurs, by in large, did well in school. For every Steve Jobs there's
10 other founders who were former super students that aggressively tracked
into tier-1 schools through hard work and (yes) conformity. No offense but
every founder story I read about their "rebellion" is almost silly. It's
always like "My parents wanted me to be an investment banker but I said NO!"
~~~
Barrin92
Yes, if you look at extreme versions like the Soviet system it by and large
did what it was supposed to do and produced for all it's other flaws a pretty
solid amount of very well trained experts, and a very highly educated general
populace. I'd include athletes from your list as well because they also tend
to thrive in very rigid environments, artists and celebrities less so.
In my experience whenever I hear people talk about unschooling or free thought
for their children it isn't about children at all but about the political
beliefs of their parents. There's still this kind of 60s hippie or California
'free spirit' individualist attitude that also has a renaissance in 'hacker'
circles. It seems to me more about the beliefs of a certain social class than
generally about education.
~~~
Fins
That's a rather charitable view of the Soviet education system, probably
colored by the biased selection you'd see in the West.
By 1990, that "very highly educated general populace" was setting out jars of
water in front of their TV screens, so they would get charged with healing
powers of ESPers
------
cwyers
I don't always feel great about sending my kid to school, but until you can
get a critical mass for some kind of alternative, the cost in social isolation
for keeping kids out of school seems way too high to me.
~~~
ChrisSD
There is also a cost in learning. I'll doff my hat to parents who have the
time, energy, resources and ability to teach their own kids a wide range of
subjects but in practice this seems to be the exception. Most homeschooled
kids I've known have been very behind their schooled peers.
~~~
peterwoerner
I taught a couple of home school co-ops during school. I found that for this
particular group, these kids basically didn't learn math, but were good
writers, well read and eloquent speakers.
My wife says that they were all incredible awkward to be around, so there may
be something to the social thing.
~~~
siempreb
> so there may be something to the social thing
You have a point there. In regular school you are forced to be 'social' or
risk punishment. I put 'social' in quotes because I think what is considered
social is subjective and mostly made up. But watching how people are treating
one another in this world I'm not sure if that social component is really
working out good. Homeschooled kids are definitely not as slavishly as the
'socially' drilled kids from regular school.
------
ping_pong
I'm struggling with this right now. My 7 year old child is "profoundly gifted"
which is an IQ above 145 (he is almost 160). He is mostly a wonderful child
and he is very very smart. He is well above his peers and is mostly sweet but
he has extreme behavioral issues many times throughout the day. He has friends
that love to play with him but like a German Shepherd, will out of nowhere
attack them verbally because he perceived a slight and will scream and say
horrible things. We have sent him to psychologists and behaviorists and burned
through our savings and spent close to $200k over the last two years and we
have run out of money. I'm getting close to the point where I accept that
school isn't for him.
I've been told that most schools do not cater for profoundly gifted children,
especially the asynchrony of the emotional development. I don't blame the
schools because children like my son are very extreme. I don't know what
setting is right for him, but we have no choice but to look into home
schooling, let him grow academically and in emotional peace, and maybe when
his maturity increases we can reintegrate him with other children. Or maybe
home schooling will be such a relief for him that his anxiety or whatever it
is that is causing this will get naturally alleviated.
~~~
socalnate1
Not sure if this is helpful or not; but I have a very similar 8 year old.
(Although his emotional maturity isn't quite as far behind as your child, and
his response is to shut down rather than attack.) Similar challenge with IQ
where he works 3-4 years ahead of grade levels and tests as profoundly gifted.
We found a charter school that mixes home school and in class education. So he
is in a typical school environment 2 days a week and we home school the other
three days. This has been a good mix for us; he can get some socialization at
school (plus other activities we are involved in). It's not as all
encompassing and stressful as a full 5 day a week school would be. We can do
academically advanced work 3 days a week; while still giving him a chance to
work his underdeveloped social skills with a little less pressure on the
system. Best of luck; parenting can be hard :)
~~~
ping_pong
Thank you. This is an interesting idea. I will look to see if my area has
something similar (SF Bay Area).
------
velcrovan
I was homeschooled for all but 2nd and 3rd grade. I have mixed feelings about
my experience of it (for me it worked out sort of OK for various lucky
reasons) but no mixed feelings about the concept of it, and I now believe it
should be illegal. It's possible, even common, to have a terrible social
experience AND a terrible education in homeschooling.
Most of the reasoning for it was that public schools are evil and stupid and
raise evil drone kids with evil drone values. This is a terrible perspective
to inculcate into your children and it warped my view of everyone around me
well into my twenties. Also the homeschooling community tends to self-select
for a lot of the most narcissistic and BPD types of parents who actually do
inflict major developmental and psychological damage and abuse on their
children.
There was also a smattering of justifying it to the effect of "children learn
better at home than they do in a classroom environment". This may be partly
and technically true, but in practice it gets cancelled out by the fact that
most parents are not actually able to educate children effectively past a 3rd
grade level.
There are always exceptions. The broad exception, as usual, is when the family
has plenty of money and the parents have LOTS of autonomy over their work
schedules. The home-schooled children of doctors and lawyers that I knew had
private tutors in some subjects and did all kinds of travel, participated in
sports and robot building competitions, even worked for state legislators as
part of their "high school".
Long story short, I am sending my children to Minneapolis public schools. As a
parent, I hugely get the desire to keep your kids close and be their
everything all the way through to adulthood. It was hard for us to watch our
six year old get on the school bus and think about this first chapter of our
lives together was in some sense ending. But I also know from experience and
observation, the protectionist instinct to keep your kids that close for that
long is really not healthy.
~~~
AnimalMuppet
"I didn't like it, it worked out badly for me, so it should be illegal for
everyone"? That seems like a bit of an over-reaction.
> There are always exceptions.
And yet you believe it should be illegal. It's going to be hard to make it
illegal and still allow the exceptions, though. "Illegal unless you have
plenty of money and autonomy over your schedule" is a pretty sketchy law.
~~~
velcrovan
> "I didn't like it, it worked out badly for me, so it should be illegal for
> everyone"? That seems like a bit of an over-reaction.
It actually didn't work out that badly for me, I thought I made that clear. It
worked out badly for most of the people I know, though.
I think it should be illegal because it's broadly unhealthy for society. It's
part of a broader belief that the way to fix a suboptimal public education
system is to make sure all parents have big incentives to invest time and
resources to improve it, rather than for the wealthy to flee and create a
system that works only for themselves and leave the public system and the
remaining people it serves to wither on the vine.
> > There are always exceptions. > And yet you believe it should be illegal.
> It's going to be hard to make it illegal and still allow the exceptions,
> though.
Yes, despite the fact that some kids (such as myself) did OK under
homeschooling, it should still be illegal. I also knew a kid who learned to
drive a stick at age ten with no license, and he didn't die. He was an
exception. Still a bad idea that should not be legal.
~~~
AnimalMuppet
> I think it should be illegal because it's broadly unhealthy for society.
> It's part of a broader belief that the way to fix a suboptimal public
> education system is to make sure all parents have big incentives to invest
> time and resources to improve it, rather than for the wealthy to flee and
> create a system that works only for themselves and leave the public system
> and the remaining people it serves to wither on the vine.
By that logic, private schools should also be made illegal. And that should be
a higher priority than homeschooling, because (I believe) more people send
their kids to private schools than homeschool. (Also by the same logic,
charter schools and magnet schools are suspect.)
I mean, you are correct in saying that that may be the best chance for the
public education system. However, I think that your proposed solution is not
only misguided, but heavy-handed authoritarian to boot. Let's throw away
parental authority over children, and give it to the state, so that the
schools will be better? No thanks. I want the schools to be better, but not at
your price.
~~~
velcrovan
> By that logic, private schools should also be made illegal.
I used to think this too, actually. But now I think that Finland’s approach
satisfies the goal while being a bit less drastic. Private schools are still
allowed, but are not allowed to charge tuition fees (they are funded by a
state grant if approved), are not allowed to have a selective admission
process, and must offer the same educational and social services as the
municipal schools.
It’s important to remember, the current system we have is heavy-handed and
authoritarian too. It traps lots of people in an underfunded system and then
tells them that system is hopeless and they are bad for using it. And parents
do not “give up authority over their children” by sending them to public
school. By fearing and vilifying any state action whatsoever, what you end up
doing is vilifying, fearing (and eventually crippling) democracy. Instead of
doing this, consider looking at measures that have been tried, proven to work,
and have high satisfaction where they have been done, and join me in
advocating an evidence-based approach to improving life for normal people!
~~~
AnimalMuppet
Parents do not give up control of their children by sending them to public
school. (At least, not in the sense I meant. They do, voluntarily, give up
some control, but that's not what I was talking about.)
But parents _being required_ to send their children to public school is a
forced removal of control from parents. No, I will not join you in advocating
that (not even if you include your restricted version of private schools). I
trust the median parent to decide what's best for their children more than I
trust the state.
~~~
velcrovan
How do you feel about truancy laws?
Also:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6T2zUEiVQU4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6T2zUEiVQU4)
~~~
AnimalMuppet
Ambivalent.
Also: I'm not going to watch a video to try to figure out what your point is.
If you've got something to say, say it.
------
misterdoubt
Cached:
[https://web.archive.org/web/20181117200216/https://supermemo...](https://web.archive.org/web/20181117200216/https://supermemo.guru/wiki/I_would_never_send_my_kids_to_school)
------
KirinDave
A discussion about how school is modeled seems on point for this site, but the
author of this seems a bit... zany?
"Before humanity is taken over by AI?"
~~~
wayoutthere
Yeah, I get the sense that this guy attached himself to a topic in the early
80s and has been on a self-directed tangent ever since. He makes a lot of
unfounded claims, peppering in _just_ enough references to sound credible.
I’m sure he believes everything he says wholeheartedly, but self-directed
learning without guidance can lead you to pick up some weird ideas before
having the context to understand why they’re “weird”. I don’t think he’s
entirely off-base with his criticisms of the school system, but I also don’t
think he presents any arguments that aren’t well-established already.
The question of which sources to trust (and thus learn from) is the biggest
reason _not_ to go entirely self-directed with learning. One is equally likely
to end up with a theological argument as a scientific one depending on which
sources you were introduced to first.
~~~
saalweachter
I feel fortunate in that most of the zany ideas I attached myself to in my
late teens/early 20's were re: physics and mathematics. Because they could be
pretty easily shown as nonsense with just a tiny bit more education and
thought, like concretely, useless nonsense, for very straight forward easy to
demonstrate reasons, I was able to later discard them without too much
difficulty, and accept that I didn't actually have any Big Ideas about math
and physics, ideas that were going to change the world.
If my Big Ideas about how the world works had been about something more
difficult to prove or disprove, like sociology or psychology, I kind of think
I would still believe them, because it's one thing to elaborate your maths to
a logical contradiction on a couple of sheets of paper, and another to run a
well-controlled experiment with thousands of subjects.
------
leftyted
There's a movie relevant to this topic called Captain Fantastic. It's about a
father who raises his kids in the forests of the Pacific NW.
I do think it's true that school is oppressive. I guess it's oppressive for
the same reason modern mass societies are oppressive: strict conformity is
tacitly enforced. The nail that stands out (for whatever reason) is usually
hammered in. Of course we also gain a lot from the way we've arranged our
societies (and our schools). We're optimizing for the best outcomes on average
-- and we may be doing that fairly well -- but that doesn't mean we're
anywhere close to optimal for a given individual.
Unfortunately, "optimal for each individual" may not be a realizable goal. But
if you have the resources, alternative means of educating your children seem
tempting.
It's also well-documented that girls seem to tolerate school better than boys
(and get better grades), which is interesting.
------
wallflower
If you found this interesting, you may find John Taylor Gatto’s “The Six-
Lesson Schoolteacher” fascinating. He is mentioned in the linked book, of
course.
[http://www.cantrip.org/gatto.html](http://www.cantrip.org/gatto.html)
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17619435](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17619435)
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=182727](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=182727)
------
paulryanrogers
There is a lot to read here. So far as I can tell it's a mix of proven ideas
(spaced repitition, need for sleep, exercise, etc) and speculation (everyone
is better without heavily structured schooling).
My guess is we could use more customized, self-driven efforts in schools and
intermingled age groups. Though I doubt his vision would be practical without
devoting a lot more resources per child.
~~~
tyri_kai_psomi
> ) and speculation (everyone is better without heavily structured schooling).
[https://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/sep/20/grammar-
sc...](https://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/sep/20/grammar-schools-play-
europe-top-education-system-finland-daycare)
[https://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/why-are-
finlands-s...](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/why-are-finlands-
schools-successful-49859555/)
This isn't speculation. Some of the best performing primary schools in the
world are in Scandinavian countries, and they have a heavily unstructured
"structure" if you want to call it that, day consisting of mostly playtime and
activities, no standardized tests (even when there are testing, the results
aren't publicized).
A far-cry from some of the rigor and structure our kids face here in the US,
where the primary objective seems to have been to raise obedient subservient
factory workers rather than inspire dreams, aspirations, and creativity and
teaching children how to truly learn, rather than simply perform a task.
~~~
topkai22
Picking Finland as a model is problematic. Compared to the US, it's a small,
socially homogenous country that speaks a language isolate.
A much better comparison is Canada, which demographically and socially is much
closer to the United States but ranks even higher than Finland in education
scores.
AFAIK from my contacts in Canada, their schooling system is very similar to
the US, but had much better results.
~~~
tyri_kai_psomi
I am not just picking Finland however. I am picking Scandanavia as a region,
which consists of 21 million, or a little over half of Canada's population.
The sample size is large enough, in my opinion.
It passes the smell test as well: teaching children how to learn versus
teaching children how to perform a task or pass a test Obviously the former is
going to be better.
Not forcing children to sit in classrooms for the majority of the day is
obviously going to be better.
Not being obsessed with standardize testing losing sight of the overall goal
of preparing your children for life sounds obviously better.
Starting at 7 years old sounds obviously better - I can specifically attest to
this as a parent, where Americans seem obsessed to have their glorified
daycare service aka "preschool and kindergarten" so that they can work more of
their already overworked life away)
Irrespective of the above points: I get it (the point about population size,
different countries, economic systems, political systems, etc). This fact is
brought up every time a desired attribute about a smaller country is
mentioned. The things I am talking about are irrespective of population size.
It requires a perspective change and getting rid of politicians that still
somehow think the turn of the century, industrial-age, overtly standardized
school system we have built here in America that more resembles a prison than
a place of learning is working and just needs more: more money, more teachers,
more books, more standardization (now we need to account for all different
metrics and biases! more money to the test generators) etc, so we can keep on
chugging along with this failed system when the elephant in the room is the
system itself is what is a overall failure and needs a complete rebuild --
which is exactly what Finland did in the 60s when it had similar challenges
from the Soviet-era education system.
------
packet_nerd
It's interesting to me to think, compared to our evolutionary history, schools
are really really foreign and unnatural. Until relatively recently, the
average kid would have grown up in a small community surrounded by her
parents, relatives, and other adults. At toddler age she would play with other
kids or find ways to amuse herself, later like 5, 6 and up, she'd start to
help out with chores.
Whereas at a school kids are cooped up in a high pressure environment, with
other kids who are all just as immature, and a few adults to supervise.
My parents homeschooled my brothers and I. I'm really torn as to whether I
want to do the same for my kids some day. One the one hand, I feel like it was
a good healthy environment to learn and grow up. On the other, I've always
felt like I don't fit into society and sometimes am jealous of "normal"
people.
~~~
onemoresoop
_> I've always felt like I don't fit into society_
Many who were not homeschooled feel the same way. I don't think this has to do
with being homeschooled or not, it has to do with how some people adapt better
than others. I went to regular school and sometimes I get that feeling that it
is hard to fit in with the average, but that is not a bad thing after all.
Modern times are quite tough for everyone. Perhaps we all have that feeling
but never talk about it.
------
joshuaheard
Someone needs to disrupt education from the current Industrial Age model to a
more current Information Age model. I lean towards a self-paced video model
like Khan Academy, with some personal instruction to answer questions, along
with some group activities to socialize the children. Unfortunately, our
government and union run education institutions resist any changes.
~~~
siempreb
It's even pre-industrial age model. School and its strict class system
originate from the church. And I totally agree it should be disrupted by a
more scientific proven model so kids can actually start to enjoy learning. The
problem is that we have billions of people that were conditioned in
traditional school. There is practically no way to change those peoples minds,
whatever argument you come up with, it's futile. That's all the downvotes ;)
~~~
joshuaheard
You're right, there are some elements from the Agrarian Age, namely getting
summers off to help with the harvest. But, if it's one thing I have learned,
it's that anything can be disrupted!
------
user_50123890
School is supposed to be a place of learning. Instead, it became a daycare for
kids to spend their days in autopilot mode
------
dvfjsdhgfv
Man, this is rant level 1000. It seems the guy was really hurt by the school
system.
------
GrumpyNl
Sounds like someone had a bad school experience.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Stock-market legend who predicted 3 financial bubbles says this is Real McCoy - danboarder
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/guid/A157512A-B0D0-11EA-B693-BE36DDFAF8A6
======
magicnubs
> The great bubbles can go on a long time
What he said may be true, but that doesn't mean it's useful. By this logic,
you can just say that stocks are overvalued any time after they've recovered
from a prior bubble pop or they go over a certain P/E ration, and you'll
eventually be right given a long enough timeframe for a correction, but you
might miss out on decades of growth in between.
~~~
lmilcin
No, that's not what he said.
What he said is that people can be blind for a long time. That it is not
correct to assume that if there is a big bubble people will notice it
immediately.
It is useful when it prevents you from assuming there are no huge bubbles
around because if there was one somebody would notice it already.
------
svaha1728
I think a big problem is everyone is in, “Central banks are on the case and
will save us” mode. It’s still an unprecedented route to take. There’s a lofty
exuberance to the Hertz rally, in particular, that seems completely detached
from the current reality.
------
kwhitefoot
What's the false positive rate, false negative rate? Does he also correctly
predict when there will not be a bubble?
~~~
rmrfstar
His research team publishes global equity index forecasts, monthly I believe.
They also have a collection of mutual funds, whose track records you can check
very easily. I recommend bench-marking against Ken French's factors [1].
[1]
[https://mba.tuck.dartmouth.edu/pages/faculty/ken.french/data...](https://mba.tuck.dartmouth.edu/pages/faculty/ken.french/data_library.html)
~~~
moneywoes
How do those compare to just the spy500, I thought sector allocation didn't
perform better long term.
~~~
rmrfstar
Start with the 3 factors (market, size, value).
Almost all the variance is in the market factor, which is just a cap-weighted
average return for all US-listed stocks.
The size factor should capture a lot of the difference between SPX (which
excludes small companies) and the broad market.
Also: SPX = S&P 500 index SPY = ETF tracking S&P 500 index
------
rmrfstar
His fund family actually publishes equity index forecasts in its research
library [1].
That means you can evaluate the efficacy of his research team's forecasts over
time.
I happen to think he is correct, but process matters. How has the process held
up over time?
[1] [https://www.gmo.com/](https://www.gmo.com/)
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