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LLVM.js: LLVM Itself Compiled to JavaScript via Emscripten - cleverjake
http://badassjs.com/post/39573969361/llvm-js-llvm-itself-compiled-to-javascript-via
======
MatthewPhillips
I think I know where they are going with this; PNaCl compiles Native Client
code to LLVM bitcode, which now will be able to be compiled to JavaScript in
the browser.
~~~
azakai
I am not aware of any concrete plans to do anything like that. It is true that
PNaCl generates LLVM bitcode, but so does clang, which is what Emscripten
uses.
PNaCl has its own set of new APIs, none of which are supported by anything but
PNaCl (and in particular not Emscripten); Emscripten does support the typical
libraries a cross-platform app uses, like SDL, glut, egl, xlib. So it would be
a lot of work to get Emscripten to do anything with PNaCl binaries given the
different APIs.
Furthermore, converting PNaCl binaries to JS in the browser would add a lot of
overhead compared to compiling to JS ahead of time and just sending the user
the JS to directly run.
So if you want to run a C++ app in JS, you should just compile it to JS
directly using Emscripten, PNaCl doesn't fit there in any way that I can see.
~~~
MatthewPhillips
I was thinking of this being useful in the way that the PDF.js and Shumway
projects are. But if you say the APIs are not there, I believe ya!
~~~
zem
PDF.js and Shumway both look like very promising projects. thanks for the
pointers.
------
cmircea
Atwood's Law strikes again!
~~~
tlrobinson
Emscripten lets you compile basically anything to JavaScript (including
itself, apparently), so Atwood's Law is really equivalent to saying JavaScript
is Turing complete.
See also: jslinux (<http://bellard.org/jslinux/>)
~~~
timcameronryan
Makes me excited for a forthcoming Emscripten => Brainfuck compiler.
------
arcatek
Does it means that C++ compilers which use LLVM can finally be compiled to
Javascript ? If so, it's a great news !
~~~
iso-8859-1
No, cause they use LLVM parts that were not yet successfully compiled to JS.
This is just an LLVM assembler and bitcode-to-JS translator.
Obviously, a JavaScript C compiler would have been a much more impressive
demo, and that would have been demoed instead.
------
jethroalias97
x86 also has been compiled to javascript (<http://bellard.org/jslinux/>) QEMU
style.
~~~
iso-8859-1
people usually use the word "emulator" for this. I do not believe jslinux
actually outputs anything. So to call it a compiler would be misleading, IMHO.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The False Musk-Jobs Parallel - donmcc
https://mondaynote.com/the-false-musk-jobs-parallel-f038093ac033
======
ramblerman
This sounds like the title of a big bang episode.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Facebook has given some developers access to an unannounced Chat SDK - rachellaw
http://techcrunch.com/2016/01/05/facebook-messenger-bots/
======
shmerl
Another walled garden chat? Why can't they develop a shared IETF supported
standard (if XMPP isn't good enough for them)? It's a shame what a huge mess
IM landscape has become because big players don't care about standardization
and federation.
~~~
gkoberger
Counter argument: Standardization and federation comes at a cost. Facebook can
build a more cohesive product with interesting features by controlling the
ecosystem completely. That's the whole point; they gain nothing by just being
yet-another-protocol.
That being said, Facebook does let you chat via Jabber. I use it (with
Messenger on OSX), and it works, but it's a completely mediocre experience
devoid of what makes FB Messenger special.
An example: FB lets you send one-click "likes". It's a great feature; it means
"acknowledged". Yet you can't send it with third-party clients, and third-
party clients receive it as a URL to an image of a thumbs-up. There's dozens
of features like this. How frustrating would it be if Facebook Voice Calls
only worked with some people, or someone's client didn't support group
messages?
~~~
shmerl
_> Standardization and federation comes at a cost._
At a cost that provides long term interopraibility benefits. But these just
care about short term rip offs and as well causing interoperability problems
for their users (i.e. preventing communication with other services). We must
be extremely lucky this didn't stay like that for e-mail.
_> they gain nothing by just being yet-another-protocol._
That's the point. They measure their gain in how much they can mess up their
users (by preventing them from communicating with users of other services).
While gain should be measured in how useful such services can become
(enhancing, not crippling communication).
_> That being said, Facebook does let you chat via Jabber_
It's not federated (which defeats the main purpose).
_> I use it (with Messenger on OSX), and it works, but it's a completely
mediocre experience devoid of what makes FB Messenger special._
If they wanted to improve things and thought that XMPP can't reach that goal,
they could propose their non XMPP chat as IETF standard. Same as Google could
do with Hangouts and so on.
~~~
gkoberger
Go find someone who uses Facebook Messenger and has never heard of Hacker
News. Ask them if they care about interoperability.
They won't understand the question. They have a FB app on their iPhone and
facebook.com on their desktop, and they won't understand what you mean.
If they want to message someone "on another service", they'll just use that
other service.
~~~
shmerl
_> Go find someone who uses Facebook Messenger and has never heard of Hacker
News. Ask them if they care about interoperability._
Many do complain about it, but can't do much to fix it. People either end up
installing 20 different clients to reach those who use other services (imagine
installing 20 browsers to read different sites or 20 e-mail clients to use
different e-mail accounts), or simply don't communicate with those users when
that number grows annoyingly large. This problem affects everyone, and it's
pretty apparent even to those who don't visit HN.
~~~
drumdance
I don't install 20 different clients, and the ones I do install are ones where
I want to keep things separate. I don't want Slack messages showing up in my
Facebook messages. I don't want Facebook messages showing up in Apple Messages
on OSX.
~~~
matt_kantor
Standard protocols and interoperability do not preclude this. Plenty of people
have separate work email addresses from their personal ones.
~~~
nl
And interestingly most people use separate clients for their work and personal
email accounts.
------
efields
OK, so Everlane is a (mostly, originally) online-only clothing retailer that
started Facebook messaging me about my order status, including shipping
updates. Obviously, this is when you've auth'd with them via Facebook.
Messages can include html, including images and map data, so they used that to
show tracking progress with some nice branding. I always wondered how they did
that.
Nice use of the platform. If your user auths with Facebook, of course it makes
sense to do your customer communication via Facebook, too.
~~~
toomuchtodo
Under what circumstances would one want to receive these sorts of messages
over a Facebook message instead of via email?
> If your user auths with Facebook, of course it makes sense to do your
> customer communication via Facebook, too.
If I've authed with you, it does not mean I want you to message me through
Facebook.
~~~
nlawalker
_> > Under what circumstances would one want to receive these sorts of
messages over a Facebook message instead of via email?_
If you're the kind of person who instead asks "Under what circumstances would
one want to receive these sorts of messages via email instead of over a
Facebook message?"
~~~
toomuchtodo
Forgive me, I'm over 30. I barely want personal messages in Facebook as it is.
~~~
stephenitis
I'm 28 and I have a 50/50 mix of people using Facebook messenger just like a
SMS. It's definitely a shift that is happening in people's comfort level with
social media as a primary comm channel.
~~~
Semaphor
29, my parents and their friends 60, 70+ all use whatsapp instead of SMS.
Whatsapp, Messenger, Google Talk, even Jabber… With modern smartphones it's
all the same, the only difference is who's on what which is why I hated when
everyone moved away from XMPP.
------
thieving_magpie
Nice way to try and lock in more facebook users. If I ever encountered a
business requiring Facebook for communication, that'd be the end of my
patronage.
Facebook isn't doing a good job of masking their desire to force everyone onto
their site (e.g. 'free internet' in India).
~~~
njovin
I've worked with the new Chat SDK and our customers' use cases aren't geared
toward forcing (or even encouraging) users into using Facebook Messenger. Most
of them are just trying to meet demand from their customers. In our particular
case, we have customers with a lot of international travelers who have access
to data while abroad but not necessarily SMS.
IMO it's a lot better than having a dedicated app you have to download to
interact with a specific brand.
~~~
thieving_magpie
I agree that it's a nice option to have and I doubt many companies care to
only provide one method of communication via Facebook. But there will be some,
as there have been in the past that wouldn't let me register for their
services since I didn't have facebook (Spotify at one point, another was a
productivity app that was featured on HN).
It just seems like a slow creep by FB to become (as cliched as this is
nowadays) 'too big to fail'.
------
base
The main reason as a developer that I'm trying to stop using anything related
with the Facebook platform is that more and more of their APIs are private and
only given access to a handful group of companies. This includes: messenger
apis, graph apis, the recent shop/section tabs on pages, payments apis etc.
It's becoming a huge walled garden.
~~~
rudedogg
Several years ago I made a program to create ad variations for Facebook Ads. I
had to parse the page and submit the html forms because they wouldn't grant me
API access. A huge list of companies had access, and most of them had pretty
shitty apps to be honest.
I wrote a nice request for access, talking about the exciting features I'd
like to use the Ads API for, and how it could help advertisers make more
effective advertisements. They said no, and my business failed after a few
months. My users were basically risking losing their Ads account by using the
software, and it made marketing it very difficult.
I guess it pays to be connected, but it's difficult when you don't live near
San Francisco, etc.
------
carlosdp
Pretty sure this wasn't actually a secret, they announced Messenger Business
integrations months ago
[https://www.messenger.com/business](https://www.messenger.com/business) ...
------
frankacter
I'm seeing a fbchess option. @fbchess help returns:
@fbchess help Start game with random colors: @fbchess play Pick the colors:
@fbchess play white/black Pick the opponent: @fbchess play white John
Make a move: use Standard Algebraic Notation @fbchess e4 or @fbchess Pe4 moves
pawn to e4 Nbd2 to move knight from b-file to d2 B2xc5 to take on c5 with 2nd
rank bishop e8=Q to promote pawn to queen 0-0-0 or O-O to castle
Claim draw (e.g. 3-fold repetition): @fbchess draw claim Offer a draw in the
current position: @fbchess draw offer Offer an undo of the last move: @fbchess
undo
Resign: @fbchess resign Show current position: @fbchess show Show stats
between current players: @fbchess stats Continue a game from another
conversation: @fbchess continue From 1:1 conversation, @fbchess continue with
[friend] From group chat, @fbchess continue from [thread name]
@fbchess play actually initiates a game including a picture of the active
chess board within the chat window.
------
bobby_9x
IRC used to have all kinds of these bots back in the day. Mostly for
downloading software. I remember even building one for the hell of it when I
got bored one summer.
~~~
rachellaw
What's fascinating is the bot-bandwagon is mirroring the early app market.
With apps, you downloaded things to do things. With bots, you integrate them
into things, so they'll do it for you. (Save extra step laziness)
~~~
WorldMaker
What worries me is that that this mirroring also applies to the erection of
giant walled gardens as well. It seems curious that this current bot-bandwagon
has exploded after the XMPP interoperation world imploded. Different APIs now
to build bots for Slack, Facebook, Google, Skype, etc...
~~~
rachellaw
I think it's in-combo with the whole AI/automated personalization as well. It
used to be very difficult to do intelligent bots, but now you have
tensorflow/caffe/word2vec frameworks that come built-in with NLP
The walled garden thing has always been an issue though. I mean Facebook threw
a fit when India turned down their "facebook-only" internet:
[http://www.economist.com/news/business-and-
finance/21685292-...](http://www.economist.com/news/business-and-
finance/21685292-critics-argue-mark-zuckerbergs-generosity-cover-landgrab-
facebooks-free-internet)
~~~
iofj
India didn't turn it down, it introduced it, and then other megacorps,
Microsoft up front, lobbied until it got outlawed.
------
ihuman
I've been looking for something like this ever since they deprecated their
XMPP Chat API. I hope this goes public soon.
~~~
iza
Pidgin has had a working plugin for a while:
[https://github.com/jgeboski/purple-
facebook](https://github.com/jgeboski/purple-facebook)
------
throaawaythrow
Throw away for obvs reasons. Lately I've started hating using facebook. I get
spam on my feeds. I get spam on my notifications. I don't really talk to
friends there. I only contact friends on rare occasions when an opportunity
comes by.
I do use messenger to talk to people close to me. Most of the time I use other
platforms to talk to teams, groups of friends, etc.
If I start getting spam on my inbox I'm joining a new platform and deleting my
facebook account. Most of the content I get there is garbage. The only reason
I haven't left yet is because of the Messenger app.
~~~
maqr
> Throw away for obvs reasons.
Not super obvious to me, unless you work at Facebook. Is it really that much
of a social taboo to delete your Facebook account?
I've been refusing to sign up for about 11 years now and I'm pretty OK with
the social consequences.
------
bikamonki
I hope they do the same for Whatsapp. Telegram has this awesome feature where
a bot can send a menu, that feature opens huge possibilities for self-service
processes in businesses. Most native apps that business develop do just that
(consult balance, fill forms, buy more services, etc). Why the need to make
businesses develop custom apps and users install them/use them when chat apps
are already installed and users already trained to use them. Furthermore, it
is quite simple to avoid abuse (spam) for instance Telegram bots have acces to
user IDs and nicks only, a bot cannot send spam to a phone number or email. At
some point, if FB does not open its chat apps the opposite will occur: want to
get fast, easy, awesome support from a business? Install Telegram and chat
with its bot.
------
zanny
So you abandon open protocols, and then try to be yet another whatsapp /
snapchat / hangouts / skype / whatever the hell.
Didn't we do this in the 90s? We had AIM, Yahoo, and MSM. We learned that is
stupid as hell, and we should just use the same protocol. So then they all
supported XMPP.
And a decade later, the cycle repeats. Everyone walls up, tries to treat chat
as this money pot, and I hope we can get back to open standards sooner rather
than later. I'm sick and tired of not being able to talk to people easily and
just resorting to email since thats the only common open protocol left people
actually use.
~~~
nl
_We had AIM, Yahoo, and MSM. We learned that is stupid as hell, and we should
just use the same protocol. So then they all supported XMPP._
I think you are misinformed.
AIM: Never supported XMPP
Yahoo: Never supported XMPP
MSN: Never supported XMPP
What happened was that someone wrote code to send messages between them all.
However, you still needed accounts on each for it to work.
Source:
_No service can talk to all services. This means in order to talk to contact
X, you must have an account on the same service as contact X, or on any
compatible service.
If you have an account on AIM, ICQ, or MobileMe, you can chat with anybody who uses AIM, ICQ, MobileMe, or SMS.
If you have an account on XMPP ("Jabber"), Google Talk or LiveJournal, you can chat with anybody who uses XMPP ("Jabber"), Google Talk or LiveJournal.
In the official clients, MSN users can chat with Yahoo! users but this is not yet supported by Adium.
Some XMPP ("Jabber") servers (mostly private ones) allow chats with
proprietary services such as AIM, MSN, and Yahoo! via a mechanism called "XMPP
transports"._
[https://adium.im/help/pgs/Accounts-
ListOfServices.html](https://adium.im/help/pgs/Accounts-ListOfServices.html)
~~~
herbst
I assume he was referring rather to Google and Facebook which both supported
XMPP at some point.
~~~
nl
That would be correct. Unfortunately the author appears to believe otherwise.
I quote: _We had AIM, Yahoo, and MSM. We learned that is stupid as hell, and
we should just use the same protocol. So then they all supported XMPP._
I think the context is pretty clear.
------
nichochar
The monetization possibilities here are unbelievable. Have keys to a platform
with a billion users that use a product this often? I would kill for access :)
~~~
GFischer
In South America (and I guess Asia too), access to WhatsApp would be even
bigger - and it's Facebook owned...
------
joelrunyon
On the other end of this - this sucks. Anyone who has a Facebook page now has
users encouraged to message them (and you get scored if you respond too late).
Just found out this out later & it's a headache when you're trying to funnel
people through your actual customer service channels and not trying to handle
things on Facebook. ugh.
~~~
kitcar
If your goal is to have ecstatically happy customers, you may want to begin
thinking about your customer service channels as wherever your customers want
to talk to you, versus where you want to talk to them.
I know its a lot of work / not possible for all businesses / makes running the
business more difficult, but hopefully minimizing unhappy customers should
result in sales growth which offsets the investment in customer service.
~~~
joelrunyon
That's true, but by directing people to where we CAN help them & track their
data / info, we're better able to do that.
It'd be great as an "optional" feature, but the fact that they enable it
automatically & grade you on that basis is a bit ridiculous.
~~~
awad
Would software that unified your owned channels vs their owned channels help
you here with data/info unification help you here?
------
herbst
Glad thats too late. At least in my environment Facebook communication pretty
much died out. I always wanted a bot, actually i always do on any platform,
and i hated that they made it so super hard.
I may will use this for Advertisment tho once it gets public. I heard people
on Facebook love to get ads thrown at their faces.
------
smrtinsert
Hey make up some cool stuff with interesting ideas so we can change terms and
steal your entire business, thanks!
------
xena
So, what IRC has had for all its life?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Apple Numbers For Normals: It’s The 5C, Stupid - chmars
http://www.mondaynote.com/2014/02/02/apple-numbers-for-normals-its-the-5c-stupid/
======
MaysonL
Here's the series that blows my mind: Here's a little table of results for the
past 8 years.
Cash generated by operating activities, Q1
Year Dollars, millions
2007 1,813
2008 2,787
2009 3,938
2010 5,781
2011 9,773
2012 17,554
2013 23,426
2014 22,670
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
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Mumbling Isn’t a Sign of Laziness, It’s a Clever Data-Compression Trick - fbrusch
http://nautil.us/blog/mumbling-isnt-a-sign-of-lazinessits-a-clever-data_compression-trick
======
chasing
Bullshit. You're mumbling when I can't understand you. Calling it "data
compression" is polishing an indecipherable turd.
Of course people make their language more efficient when using common words
and phrases. "D'ja do it?" "Yeah." "K." "No prob."
But that's not mumbling.
I think of mumbling as generally being an expressed disinterest in being
understood. Sometimes because the speaker doesn't understand what they're
being asked to speak about, sometimes because they're shy and insecure about
their words. Sometimes mumbling is a way to express derision or disinterest in
the information or the person someone's speaking to. Lots of reasons.
Not clever. Kind of the opposite of clever. It's a time-waster compared to
just flat-out saying "I don't know" or "I'm not sure" or "I don't care" or
whatever.
~~~
MBlume
You appear to have no disagreement with the author of the post apart from the
definition of the word "mumbling"
~~~
Dylan16807
Pretty much. It's a bad title.
------
amirmc
> _" We also don’t know how well speakers tune their data-compression
> algorithms to the needs of individual listeners. Accurately predicting the
> information that a listener can easily recover sometimes requires knowing a
> lot about his previous experience or knowledge. After all, one person’s
> redundancy can be another person’s anomaly..."_
I'm glad the article recognises this (and the example immediately following
the quote is instructive). It's a natural habit to do this kind of 'data-
compression' when you're working with the same people all the time but this is
_also_ the reason that communication is difficult across different groups and
cultures. It requires you to make an effort to listen and _check your own
assumptions_ if you want to actually communicate effectively, rather than
talking past each other (or worse, walking away with _different_ ideas about
what was decided).
~~~
cheatsheet
> (or worse, walking away with different ideas about what what decided)
Eh, this can also denote synergistic group think or collective creativity.
Expect the unexpected, but within a clearly defined range of variability. I'm
not talking specifically about software development btw; consider the
surrealists or any other artistic or philosophical movement (or literature,
music, mathematics etc). People have ideas together, walk away, and then have
mental independence. Mental independence is good, because too much binding in
thought = paranoia, nervous, control obsessed people. Too little and it seems
like people don't care. It's a balance.
~~~
amirmc
> _" Eh, this can also denote synergistic group think or collective
> creativity."_
I think you've missed my point. I was mostly referring to things like
meetings, where people typically are trying to reach an agreement (or
decision) about something. If those people are from different cultures, then a
mismatch can arise where people _think_ they're talking about the same thing
but only realise _later_ that things have gone wrong. Even then, people tend
towards recriminations, rather than root-causing and realising that their
terms mean different things. Take the example from the end of the post itself
(where 'skiing' meant different things to both people -- if they hadn't
clarified, they'd have parted with vastly different views on what was
discussed).
~~~
divegeek
I find it useful to keep in mind the notion that all knowledge is gained by a
process of guesswork and criticism. When you listen to my voice or read my
words, you must guess at what I mean to convey, because my words by
themselves, even if not mumbled, are almost never sufficiently precise to
carry my meaning.
So instead, you have to build and discard internal explanatory models of my
meaning, criticizing them by cross-checking them with other things I've said,
and with your understanding of my understanding of the world. Meanwhile, I'm
doing the same thing on the other side, hypothesizing the models that you're
creating based on what I've said and trying to add more words to fill any gaps
in what I presume that you're presuming that I mean.
When we arrive at a point where you and I both believe that you hold a
consistent mental model of what I wished to convey, then we believe that I
have communicated to you.
Stated that way, it's clear that communication is really, really hard -- even
though we do all of that model building and evaluation without conscious
effort in most cases. And it's also quite obvious why it's easier to
communicate with people you know well, because both sides have a better mental
model of the other's mental model. Both are _wrong_, always, but they're less
wrong than similar situations between people with less shared context.
This view also makes it abundantly clear that it's important to validate
communication. If you restate to me in your own words what you believe I
intended to convey, there's a good chance I'll catch any major discrepancies
between what I intended and what you got. A good chance, but we can still end
up believing that we're in agreement when we're not.
In theory it is possible to define a language and communication techniques
that do not depend on this iterative, contextualized method. This is
essentially what we do in formal languages, such as those we use in
mathematics or programming. But it is not how people communicate because it's
actually far more efficient to rely on compression via shared context than it
is to communicate with formal precision. Further, formal communication only
obviates guesswork and criticism at the level of understanding which is
directly expressed. I can read an assembler program and understand with
perfect precision what the individual instructions do, but the leap to
understanding the goal of the program again requires guesswork and criticism.
As an aside, it's interesting to note that the process of guess-and-evaluate
is essentially the same as the scientific method of hypothesize-and-test and
even the same as the evolutionary method of vary-and-select. There's a
compelling argument that all knowledge creation occurs via this process -- and
communication is knowledge creation, even if it simply conveys an idea from
one brain to another, because there's no direct transfer mechanism the
receiver of the idea must create it based on observations of the words of the
giver.
~~~
cheatsheet
> communication is knowledge creation, even if it simply conveys an idea from
> one brain to another, because there's no direct transfer mechanism the
> receiver of the idea must create it based on observations of the words of
> the giver.
I feel like science and mathematics (and even computer science) attempts to
counter this.
If we can mechanically generate mathematical proofs, and those proofs can be
proven equivalent to one another, then we have essentially simplified the
abstraction mechanics of the individual brain and transferred them to a
computer.
I view abstraction as a means for expanding all potential permutations of a
given model and it's application, and then a reduction to a different set of
terms that connects models.
We might be able to prove that we can agree with one another, but we might not
be able to prove that we agree with our own selves. We can always make the
problem more difficult individually by guessing and creating more questions.
To me the process is two sides of the same coin. One side is creation, the
other side is destruction. You can't convey an idea without having an idea,
and you can't question that idea without having another idea. Negation is
still a logical mechanism. You can question whether there is more to think
about than a choice between [(exist) or (does not exist)].
I really prefer to think about possibility and potential. It's an open space
to me.
------
kinleyd
I knew a guy who mumbled so much you could never understand him. It was really
irritating, but also the secret of his success. His job was to liaison with a
number of governmental/bureaucratic organisations - involving customs
clearance and things like that - and he was incredibly successful. No one
knows for sure how exactly he managed it, but a leading school of thought was
convinced that it was his mumbling. The bureaucrats just gave him whatever the
hell he wanted as quickly as possible so that they could get him out of their
offices asap.
------
zw123456
When I was growing up, I had a cousin named Eddie, and he was a "lazy talker"
or at least, as I recall, that was the name they had for his speaking style.
Eddie would not mumble, he would just not say the whole word. For example (and
it is hard to convey here in the written word) he might say "Hi, my name is
Eddie and I am a lazy talker" but it would come out "H, m na Edeh, an I lah
tak". Again, not capturing it here, but it was not mumbling. I have met other
lazy talkers, and they are not mumbling. I think the article was maybe
referring to lazy talkers and not mumblers. Mumbling to me denotes an actual
corruption of the words, lazy talking is just not saying the whole word
completely, which is more like lossy compression while mumbling to me, means a
bad Signal to noise ratio, low volume and garbled words.
~~~
dbbolton
The reason this sort of speech pattern is still mostly intelligible is that
consonants are actually more important clues markers to the listener (as a
general rule).
For example, you could probably interpret "thuh kwuhck bruhn fuhx juhmps uhvr
thuh luhzy dug" quite readily, but not "duh dwid drowd dod dudd oded duh dudy
dod".
It is true that vowels are sometimes the distinguishing phoneme between
minimal pairs, but the reality is that we are quite adept at calibrating
ourselves to cope with vowel variation.
One example is actually head size, of all things. I won't go into all the
psychoacoustics involved (not my area of expertise), but your brain adjusts
its expectations for how a given vowel should sound based on the speaker's
unique "instrumental" qualities. In other words, you can end up with two very
objectively different waveforms that your brain is able to match up without
hesitation.
A more familiar example is dialects. A Southern American speaker might say
"ice", and to a General American speaker, it may sound much more like "ass",
but this kind of variation doesn't really lead to the hilarious confusion one
might expect. After a quick "scan" of another dialect, we usually adapt fairly
quickly, and we retain those "settings" for the next time we hear a similar
dialect.
One example that's not so easy to work around might be the pen-pin merger. In
general, it leads to few mix-ups. But those speakers, "pen" and "pin" are
homophones, and unlike other such pairs (bin-Ben, lint-lent, mint-meant,
tin[t]-ten[t], win-when, etc.) they may not be easily differentiable by
context. In response, many speakers refer to pens as "ink pens" and pins as
"stick pins", which avoids the ambiguity (animal pens and female swans aren't
really an issue I suppose).
So even when vowels lead to genuine ambiguity, we get around it pretty easily.
~~~
slg
Is this really a instance of consonants versus vowels or an instance of a
large group versus a small group? The biggest reason it is hard to distinguish
your second example, is likely because you are changing a larger percentage of
the word than in the first example. If you select a random 5 consonants and
change them, I have a feeling you would get similar results to changing
vowels.
~~~
dbbolton
The very fact that there are so many more consonant phonemes than vowel
phonemes in English reflects their importance.
------
Kenji
The robustness principle comes to mind:
"Be conservative in what you do, be liberal in what you accept from others."
You can save yourself a headache if you communicate as clearly and accurately
as possible. At work, with friends, with a partner. I don't care what mumbling
is a sign of, I care about its result. Don't optimize the wrong thing. Just
like nobody likes seeing ugly JPEG artifacts, nobody likes to recognize
mumbling.
~~~
mjburgess
That implies making a cognitive activity out of a non-cognitive activity and
thus defeating the point.
~~~
civilian
You can make a cognitive activity into a non-cognitive activity with enough
repetition and habit.
------
LordRatte
Some people over-compress, though, until the point where the data becomes
corrupt and the antivirus (our social attention span) quarantines it as a mild
threat.
~~~
TeMPOraL
Reminds me of Scott Aaronson's Umeshisms[0]/Malthusianisms[1]. If you don't
sometimes over-compress it means you're compressing too little and there's
room for improving efficiency.
Also,
"Why do native speakers of the language you’re studying talk too fast for you
to understand them? Because otherwise, they could talk faster and still
understand each other."
[0] -
[http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=40](http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=40)
[1] -
[http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=418](http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=418)
------
pkinsky
People also mumble when they're deliberately talking around something. For
example, see this section from the audio recordings that brought down Nixon.
There's no doubt that both parties knew exactly what they were referring to
and could have expanded on it if needed. It's more clear if you listen to it:
they mumble as an obfuscation tactic, likely as an ingrained habit when
talking about such matters.
[http://watergate.info/1972/06/23/the-smoking-gun-
tape.html](http://watergate.info/1972/06/23/the-smoking-gun-tape.html)
>Haldeman: .../only way to solve this, and we’re set up beautifully to do it,
ah, in that and that…the only network that paid any attention to it last night
was NBC…they did a massive story on the Cuban…
>Nixon: That’s right.
>Haldeman: thing.
>Nixon: Right.
>Haldeman: That the way to handle this now is for us to have Walters call Pat
Gray and just say, “Stay the hell out of this…this is ah, business here we
don’t want you to go any further on it.” That’s not an unusual development,…
>Nixon: Um huh.
>Haldeman: …and, uh, that would take care of it.
>Nixon: What about Pat Gray, ah, you mean he doesn’t want to?
------
mmanfrin
I'm a chronic mumbler -- I try not to be, but when I speak, it feels very loud
(to me), but comes out quiet and mumbly; when I speak up so friends can hear,
it feels like I am yelling.
Definitely not about compression, though.
------
kmm
I have always liked the noisy-channel model of language. It appeals to me
because I think of the human as an extremely good pattern recognition
"device".
In my opinion, it gives a satisfying explanation as to why many languages
(about half of them) divide their words in noun categories or genders, which
are rarely sex-based. It's a system of redundancy, which allows for noisy or
compressed speech (either mumbled, or at a party, or fast spoken), to still be
understood, because the gender endings give clues to what the original word
was
------
bgilroy26
These aren't different things! If you compress data by saying less, you're
expending less energy.
It seems like the author is arguing that in order to be lazy about sound
production, you need to expend energy picking out which sounds you need and
which can be safely left out. That's all well and good, but in the middle of
the article, the author herself refers to mumbling as a kind of "strategic
laziness"!
Curse these headlines!
------
woliveirajr
Kolmogorov complexity theorem states, in a very naive interpretation, that
information is as complex as the ammount of symbols you need to represent
it...
------
jdeibele
I have more trouble understanding what my daughters are saying than my son. My
daughters are in Spanish Immersion programs while he's in Japanese. My oldest
says that she's just used to using Spanish and that's why her English isn't
more clearly enunciated.
My son does mumble at times but I've always thought it was when he was saying
something he knew he wasn't supposed to.
------
arrrg
Am I completely off base here or is this mumbling equals laziness thing
something unique to the English language?
I'm German and I really wasn't aware of this association at all. I associate
mumbling with shyness … and that's about it. And what's more that association
to laziness seems positively weird and non-sensical to me.
------
mc32
So drunkards are better at data compression than the non drunk population?
And forget about southerners who speak English as if it were French. Eass for
east. Repore for report. Assed for asked, etc. (really you 'assed' me a
question?) It can quickly make a conversation ambiguous as this tendency
results in lots oh homonyms.
------
cwbrandsma
My father-in-law and one of my daughters are both mumblers. But my father
needs hearing aids.
Best way to make sure father-in-law speaks up is to have my father around.
Downside is it physically wears my father-in-law out. He just can't handle
expending that much effort into speaking.
------
cgtyoder
So just a coincidence with today's xkcd?
[http://xkcd.com/1489/](http://xkcd.com/1489/)
------
dozy
this reminded me of an interesting New Yorker summary of a study on 'filler
words' and how our ability to speak and explain efficiently develops:
[http://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-
comment/conscienti...](http://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-
comment/conscientiousness-kidspeak)
------
UhUhUhUh
The title is wrong because it can be both and much more. When will we stop
using titles as hooks?
------
surgerunner
Compressed data stops being human readable.
------
grimmdude
I mumble, and I will now send this article to all the people who tell me not
to. Thanks
------
a3voices
The purpose of speaking is to convey information to another person. As long as
you are accomplishing this, your volume, enunciation, tonality, etc. doesn't
matter.
~~~
cryptophreak
While a strict interpretation of your statement technically evaluates as true,
it’s worth noting that volume, enunciation and tonality can themselves carry
information which alters the meaning of your communication.
------
Dirlewanger
I hate it. This, txting talk, bastardizing the way we converse with one
another, it's all happening so unmanageably sudden that repercussions will
take a generation or two to manifest. The Internet doesn't help. I know, I
know, each generation loves to make a pastime in being armchair harbingers of
doom regarding successive generations, but seriously maiming the way we
communicate is on another plane of concern I think.
Ok, off my soapbox.
~~~
stephenhuey
There was more variation in language before the courts of Europe began
dictating the usage of standard dialects. Languages may have changed even
faster in the past than they do now (not counting the vast increase in jargon
we have in the modern world). The internet may not have publishing gatekeepers
like books have had for centuries, but like books and the courts of yore it
probably still does more for encouraging people to use the same language
patterns rather than different ones just because it's so accessible. If the
movies of Hollywood have influenced the usage of English worldwide, how much
more so would YouTube? Long before the internet, multiple Latin American
countries started chopping off certain sounds in Spanish words. Although it
makes it difficult for other Spanish speakers to understand clearly at first--
and they may feel like their language has been maimed, as you put it--the ones
doing the chopping seem to communicate quite easily with one another.
~~~
Dirlewanger
Of course this phenomenon has been happening since language first became a
thing, but the rate at which it's happening has not. The most cynical part of
me fears that places like courts, government institutions, academia, and other
sorts of walled gardens will soon be the only bastions well-written and cogent
language (and that this will happen before the end of the century). I don't
know...maybe it won't. But still.
~~~
stephenhuey
I'm no professional linguist, but my understanding is that there is less
variation in language now than there was a century or two ago. When travel and
communication were more difficult, you did not see speakers across a nation
using uniform language patterns as much as they do now. Not only that,
numerous languages we had only a century or two ago have been replaced, and
some predict "that 90% of the circa 7,000 languages currently spoken in the
world will have become extinct by 2050." This is sad to me, as I would prefer
the preservation of linguistic diversity. I'm pretty sure you have little
reason to expect there will be an increase of nonstandard language patterns.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinct_language#Language_loss](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinct_language#Language_loss)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Mystery of Lost Colony of Roanoke 'over': Settlers went to live with local tribe - bcaulfield
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-8647405/Writings-reveal-settlers-Lost-Colony-Roanoke-DID-integrate-local-tribe.html
======
Grakel
Being from Virginia, this is one of those "mitochondria are the powerhouse of
the cell" things that we studied over and over again for absolutely no reason.
Funny to see this.
~~~
bcaulfield
I'm chiefly impressed that someone's just saying "hey, there's no more mystery
people, they settled with the local tribes, okay? so let's cut out the woo" in
a headline.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The World of Everyday Experience, In One Equation - llambda
http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2013/01/04/the-world-of-everyday-experience-in-one-equation/
======
lutusp
The best line in the linked article: "I don’t want a notational shortcut to
undermine my argument and leave the audience believing in God."
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Philosophy Di Poetic Mystique - barcelonamessi
http://poeticmystique.xyz
======
gus_massa
The front page is too empty and has no information about what the site does. I
found this with more info [https://poeticmystique.xyz/new-
page/](https://poeticmystique.xyz/new-page/) but I don't understand how it
works. I pay $20 and then someone else pays my $1000 bill???
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
$8 million iPhone: The ultimate geek chic - devmonk
http://www.csmonitor.com/Innovation/Horizons/2010/1015/8-million-iPhone-The-ultimate-geek-chic
======
noonespecial
There's a lot of talk about wealth inequality these days but when the stuff
that ordinary people can just go buy at the mall is so awesome that the only
thing rich people can think of to do to improve it is to glue diamonds all
over it, this says something good about the way things are going.
------
aberkowitz
Do people actually buy these or similarly upperclassed phones?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The Forgotten Sidekick - joao
http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/forgottensidekick
======
tptacek
One of these devices runs a full Webkit browser.
The other needed a firmware update to support Javascript.
These do not seem like superficial differences, Aaron.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Congress's Approval Rating Hits 9% - dylangs1030
http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/21/opinion/obeidallah-congress-failure/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
======
nextparadigms
This isn't happening just in USA. People in other countries too are realizing
that the Parliament is barely representing them anymore, and they are there
mostly to represent themselves.
Changing parties every 4 years has become more like a false choice, as the end
result seems to be more or less the same, with the parties being run by more
or less the same type of people.
I do believe it's a system problem, though. I think our democracies or
republics or whatever you want to call them are way overdue for some changes
and some evolution in the way they work. Any thoughts on how that could be
done? I think there ought to be some major changes, but also a lot of small
ones, too.
~~~
billpatrianakos
The major problem is that the powers that be have so ingrained themselves into
our politics that nothing short of a full on violent revolution will oust
them.
Its no secret anymore that our representatives actually represent their own
interests, not ours. I would argue that corporate interests are _not_ what
they represent. It's their _own_ interests. The lobbies give them money,
status and power. If a different suitor came along they would turn on their
current lobbyist buddies in a heartbeat if they got a better offer.
So right there, that needs to change. When the electorate is able to provide
the representatives with more incentive to represent us than the lobbyists do
only then will we get our representatives back. How do we take money out of
politics?
First we overturn the Citizens United ruling and end corporate personhood or
at least restrict what constitutes free speech for corporations. As long as
money is considered speech in politics we'll have trouble.
The problem with this is that money actually can be speech. We vote with our
wallet all the time. So how can we stop this without unintended side effects?
Government sponsored campaigns and strict limits on contributions is probably
the most common sense and easy way to do this. A system where there is a limit
to campaign expenses and the government subsidizes candidates that doesn't
have as much money as their opponent up to the limit is a good plan. I know
some states are trying to enact policies in that vein. I hope more do and
succeed.
------
billpatrianakos
Yeah, these guys are doing absolutely nothing helpful at all. You know why I'm
an entrepreneur? Because the job market is so shitty that it made more sense
to create my own job than be unemployed for an indefinite period of time. And
even if we're able to find a job it would pay below poverty levels. Before I
went into business I was a manager at a fast food restaurant. After two years
and 3 promotions you know what my pay was? $10/hr. I was lucky if I could even
afford the employee discounted food there.
So terms limits sound good but it's just not happening soon. The way we can
impose term limits without amending the constitution is to educate people,
organize them, and then make sure each of our communities bands together to
vote out all incumbents after 2 or 4 years. In order to appease everyone we
should also make sure there is a republican and democrat running for that
office during every "vote out the incumbent" year regardless of what party
currently holds the seat.
Yeah, it sounds idealistic and it is. I wouldn't try to convince anyone it
would work in reality but in theory it sounds good. Too bad reality sucks.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: Can Machine Learning Be Trained to Predict How Will I Look After 10 Yrs? - nanospeck
Just getting more curious on ML possibilites, if I train a model with thousands of potrait photo samples of people at age 20 and their photo at age 30. Can I create a model that can successfully predict how someone will look at 30 when given the photo at age 20?<p>Since I don't have any mentors on this area. I am very interested to know atleast what this specific problem area is called in Machine Learning. Are there currently any frameworks you know that can do this?
======
webmaven
Probably.
I am not aware of any work that checks how _accurate_ such age progression (or
regression) transforms are, but there are many papers that use the realism (as
evaluated by humans) of the results as a criteria.
As one example, here is a recent paper ( _Deep Feature Interpolation for Image
Content Changes_ ) that uses age progression as one of the evaluation tasks:
[https://arxiv.org/abs/1611.05507](https://arxiv.org/abs/1611.05507)
Regardless of the model you choose, if accuracy is your goal your training
data _may_ need 2+ images of each subject at different ages, labelled as to
age (and possibly year). You might not necessarily need to associate different
images of the same person with each other, you just need to give your system
the opportunity to learn more than just how a generic 16yo ages to a generic
37yo, etc.
As a bonus for having the images labelled by year, the same model should also
be able to transform a 1972 18yo into a 2012 18yo, etc.
------
billconan
I think it is an interesting topic and may be possible.
But I see 2 difficulties. One is collecting this data. Maybe if you have
access to a passport photo database, things will be easier.
Second is how to design the cost function. direct comparing pixels doesn't
seem to be the right way.
a generative model sounds better.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The last line effect explained - AndreyKarpov
https://www.viva64.com/en/b/0485/
======
officelineback
So the idea is, the last line of each "chunk" of code tends to be where bugs
are focused because it's the last thing a programmer implements in that
"session" if you will, and they are already starting to be distracted by
whatever they're doing next?
~~~
AndreyKarpov
Well, mostly yes.
------
CarolineW
How can it be that this submission got 8 upvotes in less than a minute,
whereas a submission[0] from just 14 minutes ago has had no upvotes at all?
It was also submitted 95 days ago[1] as a simple PDF, but garner neither
upvotes nor comments. Personally, I found that PDF the easiest to read.
Personal reference.
[0]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13866780](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13866780)
[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13130635](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13130635)
~~~
jepler
my own baseless speculation? viva64 is a known and loved site by many HN
readers, while on springer I expected (but was wrong, after visiting the link)
a useless paywalled academic article.
~~~
AndreyKarpov
Try short variant :) -
[https://www.viva64.com/en/b/0260/](https://www.viva64.com/en/b/0260/) (The
Last Line Effect)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Male Test Scores Are More Variable Than Female Scores - snewe
http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2008/07/larry-summers-vindicated-by-new-study.html
======
run4yourlives
I feel bad that this guy needed to be "vindicated" by stating something that
was so obviously inline with all semi-correlated data points, from life
expectancy to average salaries.
It is clear that in our species, the female is the pretty one, while the male
is judged on achievement. Given that, the male most certainly will be the
gender that pushes boundaries.
I thought this was pretty much a given. Why people can't accept that we are
programmed differently (and, more importantly, that it has next to no impact
on any particular individual or the life they choose to live) is beyond me.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Comcast's 1TB data caps start to roll out nationwide - marmshallow
https://www.engadget.com/2016/10/06/comcasts-1tb-data-caps-start-to-roll-out-nationwide/
======
readams
We need to move to a system where a tightly-regulated utility owns the wired
infrastructure only, and leases access to a wide variety of ISPs, video
services, etc. This solves the problem that the infrastructure costs involved
create a natural monopoly while avoiding Comcast misbehavior.
Otherwise I think it's safe to assume that once the caps are entrenched, they
won't ever be increased and they'll try to move everyone into a regime like
cell phone data is currently: high prices, tightly metered, innovation dead.
~~~
bigdubs
T-Mobile is an example of cellular companies responding to tight competition
and differentiating by removing caps / usage fees.
The key is competition though, as you've pointed out.
~~~
kuschku
You do realize T-Mobile is on a full EEE trip there?
Look at Germany, where they existed for a while already, and have pushed
against net neutrality, refuse to peer with companies unless they get paid,
_replace ads in websites with their own with MitM proxies_ and so on.
T-Online/T-Mobile are the worst of the worst.
~~~
bogomipz
What is EEE?
Unfortunately paid peering is pretty much the norm these days unless you are
part of the exclusive club of Tier 1 ISPs, not that I'm defending it. I don't
have much great to say about any of the wireless carriers but I feel like
T-Mobile is at least trying new things. The T Mobile One plan for instance is
really great if you travel internationally. I don't know of any other carrier
that is doing that.
~~~
l1n
"Embrace, extend, and extinguish", also known as "Embrace, extend, and
exterminate", is a phrase that the U.S. Department of Justice found that was
used internally by Microsoft to describe its strategy for entering product
categories involving widely used standards, extending those standards with
proprietary capabilities, and then using those differences to disadvantage its
competitors. [1]
[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace_extend_extinguish](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace_extend_extinguish)
------
ar0
To be honest, I am often wondering: wouldn't it maybe be better to have a
provider that has clear data limits in place (and reasonable charges for
exceeding them) but otherwise provides full, unrestricted, unmonitored high-
speed connectivity including IPv6 for server usage instead of having an
apparently "unlimited" connection with lots of throttling, filtering, "best
effort" and peering games of chicken? After all, "unlimited" is not really
unlimited (moving bits does require physical materials which are limited) and
primarily means that low data users subsidize high data users.
Now, don't get me wrong: from what I have read, Comcast seems to be a prime
example of the second kind of ISP _and_ they are implementing data caps, so
yes this would make me try to switch as well. But dismissing data caps in
general seems not to be the right approach for me.
~~~
scrollaway
If you're in the UK, you are exactly describing Andrews&Arnold's business:
[http://aaisp.net/](http://aaisp.net/)
Full, unrestricted, unmonitored, uncensored, IPv6-compatible compatibility
sold by the gigabyte.
They are honestly fantastic (I'm even using them as my mobile provider - and I
don't live in the UK anymore). However, if you use them you'll understand why
this model can't go mainstream: It gets expensive pretty fast, especially if
you aren't paying attention.
However I will straight up recommend AAISP to the UK HN crowd. If you don't
know them, please look into them!
~~~
dingaling
I actually have an anecdote about leaving AAISP and going to an 'evil-capped-
service'...
AAISP applies time-and-byte-based billing, with higher billing rates in the
evening. One buys a number of billing 'units' at the start of the month and
these deplete with the calculated usage, if you exceed your purchased units
then they add another one and charge you.
Eventually this reached the point where my wife was asking 'how much will it
cost to watch this video?' and we were trying to work-out whether it would fit
in our purchased allowance, given the time of day, or require a top-up. So it
was easier to move to an equally competent ISP ( Goscomb ) who offered various
capped tiers, so now she can just look at the usage level and determine
whether she can watch a 1.5GB video or wait until next month. There is also
less fear about how much my self-hosted services are costing me.
Several months after I migrated-away from AAISP the latter cancelled the
underlying broadband service on my line. So they're not infallible, either...
and they never did apologise. Thankfully Goscomb fixed the issue and soaked-up
any charges from BT, the infrastructure provider.
~~~
scrollaway
Well, yeah, that's a metered connection for you and it's what I was talking
about: You need to keep it in mind all the time. Or, you need to overprovision
in order not to worry about it.
They have a 1TB service now which is very cheap, same as Comcast, so for most
people I actually think this problem is solved. Back when I used them, my
usage was greater than today and I was ordering only 300GB monthly so it was a
pita. Yet look at me still recommending them :)
> _So they 're not infallible, either... and they never did apologise_
Honestly that doesn't sound like them, unless it legitimately wasn't their
fault. Ring them. Hell, ring them today and ask for an apology I'm fairly
certain you'll get one. They did mess up when I was moving out as well, by
turning it off a day early - I gave them a ring and it was fixed in 10 mins,
and they did apologize :)
Now today I'm stuck with an ISP that doesn't train its staff on what IPv6 even
is. I can't call it about increased latency or 70 disconnects a day without
being asked "have you tried turning it off and on again". I can't get
transferred to a manager. I can't get a refund despite 4 months of completely
unusable service.
I'll take the constant worries of metering over eating meat from a butcher
that doesn't know what a cow is.
------
existencebox
Let me tell a tale.
Recently I was cancelling my comcast for wave. I was charged an early
cancellation fee of multiple months service (The cancellation was due to
moving out of my apt at end of lease to a house for which comcast did not
offer service). The early fee was not on my original contract; and was
apparently added without my consent in the interim, and the lower level
managers intended to enforce despite their inability to even provide me
service.
I refused this and continued to escalate until I got a surprisingly high tier
manager who talked like a techie and seemed to understand a thing or two and
had a degree of self awareness (when told "Thanks for your help, I'm sorry you
work for such a shit company since your good effort could be better used in
better actors" he responded with "yeah I know; at least it pays the bills").
He made ALL my problems disappear and listened to my complaints of a decade
with Comcast, and why I'd never go back, seeming legitimately remorseful and
sad that the company has been generally anti-consumer, promising that they
were pushing to improve things and acknowledging the pain I felt to the degree
of comping multiple months+fees.
So my question. Is that an act? Or is this another poor middle manager trying
to do his best? Are they really so tuned out as to how much ill will they're
generating such that I had "not comcast" as a prerequisite to the massive act
of _buying a house_? And to the other half of that question; how can we make
them feel the pain more as consumers? (legal action of course but in
addition.) As a tech influencer I do all I can to try and tell people about
the great local ISP alternatives in my area if they aren't aware, but it seems
like comcast lives in its own little bubble where the realities of good
consumer practices just don't apply. (or maybe I'm being pessimistic and the
hammer will drop in a few decades, I don't have many good prior historical
examples with similar enough context to extrapolate, if anyone else does I'd
be curious)
~~~
wernercd
I've found that they just like to make it harder to get stuff fixed or changed
in favor of the customer.
Let me tell a tale:
I've been with my fiance for ~10 years now. We've had Comcast for ~8 of the
ten years. We had a "full" internet/cable package for ~6 of those 8 years.
Every year - like clockwork - she would get a bill after the "year" intro
period and the price would go up. I'm not sure of the numbers but from ~100 to
~150 or somewhere in there.
Why like clockwork? Because every year she would call and say "cancel the
package... oh? you'll extend it? AND add another pay channel bundle? Okay...
talk to you next year".
With each year it got harder and she had to fight longer - sometimes through
multiple calls. When it got escalated to cancellation managers they would
inevitably change their minds.
It finally got to the point last year that we actually canceled everything
except for the _ABSOLUTE_ basic cable. No HD. Only half of the channels (no
MTV, HGTV, etc).
The reality is simple: It's them or... dialup? Satellite? couple other crappy
options. The joy of "monopolies". They know that people who want channels MUST
go through them.
Thankfully Netflix, Amazon Prime,... plex :) have picked up the slack so we
actually aren't bother much by the loss of HBO and the like...
~~~
Florin_Andrei
> _The reality is simple: It 's them or... dialup? Satellite? couple other
> crappy options. The joy of "monopolies"._
OTA channels + indoor antenna. Workes pretty well for me. We watched the
Olympics that way, and more recently the presidential debates.
------
godzillabrennus
Many folks don't have an option to switch away. If we want change we need to
vote it in. That reminds me to get back to work fixing the problem.
~~~
throwaway98237
Agreed. Much like public utilities. The Internet is already a public utility
in my mind, but we still regulate it like cable television. That must change.
But, looking to utilities, one sees the democratization and decentralization,
due to battery and solar technologies, taking place in that sector. It would
be wise to leapfrog some of the solutions and get straight to a decentralized,
private-mesh/public-utility solution as soon as possible.
~~~
throwaway98237
Thanks for the feedback (down-vote). Would appreciate an accompanying comment.
Then I could reconsider my position and perhaps alter it.
~~~
oldmanjay
Paying attention to the downvotes on your comments isn't terribly helpful on
HN. Mostly it just leads to more downvotes.
~~~
throwaway98237
Thanks for telling me how HN works. I've never been here before. Oh wait. I've
been here for years. So, my experience has let me to a different point of view
than you have. But, you know, thanks for making those assumptions and giving
your your advice.
~~~
oldmanjay
I assumed that a person who broke a well-known community convention may be
ignorant of the convention. Feel free to continue breaking them with your
throwaway.
~~~
throwaway98237
Conventions are meant to evolve. But boy, do you really like making
assumptions. Show me a rule I'm breaking, and I'll gladly revise my behavior.
------
SallySwanSmith
And I just switched to a local provider and am cancelling my xfinity tv and
internet. I'm done with them.
------
ralusek
I have had an extremely hard time getting an answer to this question. It is my
understanding that it is either very negligible, or an entirely non-existent
cost that is incurred by an ISP to transfer more vs less data. They basically
just facilitate the infrastructure, is that correct?
I understand with mobile data you're actually competing for frequency space,
among other issues, but this is not analogous to how data over cable works.
~~~
bajsejohannes
The cost of transferring more data on current infrastructure is negligible.
However, ISPs have a maximum capacity that's well below their number of users
multiplied by the user's maximum bandwidth. They're just making a bet that not
everyone will use all their bandwidth most of the time. At some point, average
utilization goes up, and they have to buy more infrastructure to handle it,
which is what costs money.
~~~
wmf
Only peak time (e.g. 8 PM) utilization matters and caps generally don't reduce
it. It's definitely true that increased peak usage requires ISPs to upgrade
their networks, but their pricing is almost totally disconnected from costs.
------
LeoPanthera
I wish I could migrate to a local provider, but in my area there is literally
no other option. We don't even have a phone line, and even if we paid AT&T the
surprisingly huge fee to have them install one, we still wouldn't be able to
get DSL because we live too far from civilization. (About 10 minutes up a hill
just outside Redwood City in the CA Bay Area.)
So whatever Comcast want to do, we're literally stuck with it.
------
unabridged
>If one TB is exceeded, $10 is charged for each additional data block of up to
50 GB/month $200 overage charge limit - no matter how much data is used
>Unlimited Data Additional $50/month No overage charges — no matter how much
data is used each month
Can't they just cap the overage at $50? Why the nickel and dime-ing just to
get an extra $150 from a handful of customers who forgot to monitor their
usage and make a phone call?
~~~
techsupporter
> Why the nickel and dime-ing just to get an extra $150 from a handful of
> customers who forgot to monitor their usage
They want that ARPU to go up by $50 for the people who think they're heavy
users but aren't _always_ heavy users. Best of both worlds from their
perspective: someone who only hits 1TB a couple of months out of the year
could wind up giving them $500/year of "free" money (10 months of not going
over but still paying the unlimited charge). And someone else who doesn't go
over except once but does it really big kicks in another $100 or so.
It's all about the ARPU.
------
chaostheory
You can pay $50/month more to Comcast if you don't want to be capped. I'm not
happy about it but at least there's an option. I don't pirate and I use about
5 TB of data a month.
------
nodesocket
I loathe Comcast/Xfinity with a passion. My bill went from $129 a month
(internet/tv) to $240 a month starting in Sept. This 1TB internet cap is
complete nonsense.
I don't understand why they just can't run their business responsibly and not
try to screw and scam their customers.
~~~
Florin_Andrei
> _I don 't understand why they just can't run their business responsibly and
> not try to screw and scam their customers._
When corporations are more powerful than the law or the political process,
then of course they can do whatever they want.
The law of this land is "whoever has more $$$ wins".
~~~
nodesocket
Not on board, and don't agree that law and political processes should be
enforcing pricing and business constraints on Comcast. We need more companies
and competition, and the market will force them to change.
~~~
xj9
That doesn't work for utilities or infrastructure.
------
tzs
Whenever bandwidth caps are discussed, many people say that there is no
technical reason providers like Comcast need to have a limit. It's all just to
make money on artificial overage charges and/or to discourage people from
canceling their cable TV in favor of internet streaming, and that these ISPs
can only do this because they are often the only high speed provider in their
area.
Question: if that is true, then how come on the server side of things, where
we do have competition and so can switch to a different hosting provider if
one charges too much for bandwidth, we don't have major hosting providers
giving us unlimited bandwidth?
~~~
paulmd
Do you mean data _transfer_ caps? That's what we are discussing here.
You can buy unmetered shared hosting (famously, Dreamhost) or even unmetered
servers/rackspace. The problem is that at the end of the day everyone involved
knows it's an illusion. You can't sell an infinite quantity of data and so any
service is oversold to some degree. And since transfer is just the integration
of bandwidth consumption, so there are hard limits to what you could ever push
through a given server (though the service will ask you to fuck off long
before this point).
Furthermore, servers are largely business-driven. Pretend "unlimited" hosting
is fine for toy projects but in business long load times or outages are lost
money, so reliability is a must and SLAs are the order of the day. Nobody will
sign a SLA on "unlimited", bandwidth (to handle peaks) is more important than
transfer anyway, and the larger your needs the more you will pay. Every dollar
you spend on wasted capacity is a dollar that comes out of your profit.
Anyway, what it largely comes down to is that consumer internet access is a
"best-effort" service and that's not acceptable in a datacenter. Data still
costs money to deliver even in a "best-effort" service but it's super minimal.
The marginal cost of a gigabyte of data is around a tenth of a cent per
gigabyte. All of the cost is in the last-mile infrastructure, so overage
charges are just a cash grab. I would be perfectly fine with being billed at
say $15/mo for hookup plus actual data charges but that's not what's being
offered here.
------
throwaway98237
As more and more of "our lives" are live online, this is going to be an issue
we must confront. On one hand, we need to admit the hard realities that the
internet is a physical network that requires real world resources, and every
time we pretend that limited resources are unlimited we end up in trouble. On
the other hand we can't say, you've reached your cap, so we are in the right
to charge you to utilize public resources or attend "online protests" (I
realize this immediately runs into net neutrality issues).
------
jdpedrie
I got this email yesterday, and called today to cancel my service.
The guy spent several minutes getting more and more belligerent, telling me
that I was mistaken, that there had always been a data cap, in fact the data
cap was being raised from 300gb to 1tb! The only real difference was now the
cap was going to be enforced.
I laughed at him and told him I wasn't going to argue, just cancel the
service.
~~~
brianwawok
There was a 300gb cap but it wasn't enforced. Kind of a joke.
------
sidlls
Now if only I didn't constantly see "insufficient bandwidth" on Amazon or
apparently-throttled downloads and streaming of other data with my
"Performance Pro" package I could start being more upset about the bandwidth
cap and less about being charged ridiculous rates for paltry bandwidth.
------
mankash666
Pre emptive strike against fledgling IPTV services. Imagine a world where all
your TV channels are delivered online. Except it'll be a reality in under 10
years, and Comcast wants a cut of it's made irrelevant
------
rb808
Aside from torrenting, how could you possibly use more than 30GB a day every
day?
If you do use that much surely its fair you pay extra as you're probably using
more data than the rest of the block.
~~~
llama052
I eat up more than 30GB a day from video streaming alone.
Think of how connected households are today, you've got everything connected
to the internet now. Smartphones, Tablets, Laptops, Streaming devices in every
room, learning devices/gadgets for kids. You've got Netflix/HBO/Prime video,
Spotify, apple music, Cloud backup services will eat into that bandwidth as
well.
Just checked my last months usage and I've used 1.3TB of data, and it's not
that I'm doing anything crazy, it just adds up.
~~~
sytelus
HD streaming costs 5Mbps. Even if you want 24X7, your total bandwidth
consumption would be 1.6TB/mo. It seems unlikely that you can eat up 1TB just
by streaming videos.
~~~
msh
4K Netflix is about 25 mbit
------
tjohns
If you've got no other choice besides Comcast, it's worth noting that their
business plans don't have data caps. (Though they are slightly more
expensive.)
~~~
x2f10
It's over double the cost for my 100-down line.
------
bgentry
It took a 30 minute phone call just for them to flip the switch that starts
charging me an extra $50/mo. Followed by another 20 minute call to get my plan
price reduced with a promotional rate.
At least the 2nd rep was nice and told me to call back in the 2nd week of Nov
for even more discounted special offers.
------
pasbesoin
Is their business product still uncapped? Going to remain so (to the best of
anyone's knowledge)? Been thinking of switching to that. Unfortunately,
Crapcast is the only option for me, here.
------
meesterdude
And i live in philadelphia, where Comcast has an agreement with the city that
prevents other ISPs from operating. Verizon can (because $$) but there are
other ISP's outside the city like RCN that aren't allowed in.
------
JustSomeNobody
>If one TB is exceeded, $10 is charged for each additional data block of up to
50 GB/month $200 overage charge limit - no matter how much data is used
I can't parse that. There appears to be some punctuation and words missing.
~~~
detaro
From the article:
_The third time it 's exceeded within a 12 month period, however, the
"courtesy months" go away and users will be charged $10 for an additional 50GB
of data, which will continue happening to a limit of $200 per month._
------
zenobit256
As someone affected by this in the Washington area, is there any other ISP
somebody would recommend? Comcast was my last resort, but this just floors me.
A terabyte is easy to blow through in a household!
------
bogomipz
And yet every time one of these near monopolies pleads their case in front of
the FCC and DOJ they always state that said merger will be good for consumers.
------
Florin_Andrei
The big, ugly company that should just die and be replaced by a utility
doesn't want to die.
------
wesleyd
I've just signed up for sonic.
~~~
r00fus
Just realized they are available for my address - but only as Fiber to the
Node (operated through ATT's Fiber + copper to house).
Has anyone actually used this? I imagine it wouldn't be as cool as FTTH, but
maybe better than Comcast (which shows as 25M down for me even though I have
50M signed up).
------
Tempest1981
Anyone else notice that they picked 1024 GB, vs 1000 GB? Extra generosity. :-)
------
LeifCarrotson
The text of the emails they're sending out is:
Information about a New Terabyte Internet Data Usage Plan
We’re writing to let you know that we will be activating a new XFINITY
Internet Data Usage Plan in your area. Effective November 1, 2016, your
XFINITY Internet service will include one terabyte (that’s 1,024 GB) of data
usage per month. With a terabyte of data you can stream between 600 and 700
hours of HD video, play more than 12,000 hours of online games, or download
60,000 high-res photos in a month.
[Note about your personalized usage vs 1tb]
One terabyte is a massive amount of data – less than 1% of our customers use
that amount in a month. However, we still want to make sure you understand
your options and choose the Data Usage Plan that works best for you. If you
believe you will need more data, an Unlimited Data option is available. Our
data plans are based on a principle of fairness. Those who use more Internet
data, pay more. And those who use less Internet data, pay less.
One Terabyte Plan and Unlimited Data option:
One Terabyte (TB) included/month
If one TB is exceeded, $10 is charged for each additional data block of up to
50 GB/month $200 overage charge limit - no matter how much data is used
Unlimited Data Additional $50/month No overage charges — no matter how much
data is used each month You can also track and manage your usage so there are
never any surprises about how much data you use. Here are a few tools you can
use:
Data Usage meter – Monitor how much data your household has used with our Data
Usage Meter.
Data Usage Estimator - Estimate your data usage with our estimator Tool.
Simply enter how your household typically uses the Internet and the tool will
estimate your monthly data usage.
Notifications - If you approach, reach or exceed one terabyte of data usage,
we will send you a courtesy "in-browser" notice as well as an email. You can
also elect to receive notifications at specific usage thresholds and set up
mobile text notifications. Learn more about notifications here. Usage
notifications will not be sent to customers who enroll in the Unlimited Data
option.
For the less than 1% of customers who do exceed one terabyte of data usage,
we’re offering two courtesy months, so customers will not be charged the first
two times they exceed one terabyte while they are getting comfortable with the
new plan.
If you have any questions about the new Data Usage Plan, please visit
[http://dataplan.xfinity.com/](http://dataplan.xfinity.com/).
Thank you for being an XFINITY Internet customer.
Sincerely,
Tim Collins Regional Senior Vice President of Comcast's Heartland Region
~~~
beamatronic
>> we will send you a courtesy "in-browser" notice
Another good reason to use SSL everywhere
------
mindslight
I would really like to see the FTC go after them if they continue to advertise
speeds above 3Mbit/sec.
I've said it before and I'll say it again - patronize your local DSL provider
before it's too late.
~~~
dpark
I don't understand any of this comment. What is the 3Mbit/sec in reference to?
I get significantly faster speed than that all the time. Edit: Oh, you're
trying to assert that bandwidth==cap subdivided to the second level. No,
that's absurd.
I don't understand how switching to a local DSL provider would benefit me. I
don't like Comcast at all, but cutting my typical bandwidth by more than 75%
doesn't seem like a net gain. I like Netflix more than I hate Comcast.
~~~
mindslight
First, the bulk of consumer use does not require high instantaneous bandwidth.
And from what I recall, cable companies generally throttle those uses anyway!
But the real value of the comparison is seeing exactly what game cable
companies are playing. Their last-mile links happen to have higher bandwidth,
but really they do not want to actually carry the corresponding traffic. So
they advertise the irrelevant speeds in big print, and then do everything they
can to restrict the actual service provided. Meanwhile I'm consistently doing
>2TB/mo on DSL.
Don't let CableCos' misleading advertising fool you, the US's last-mile
communications infrastructure basically stagnated two generations back.
Competition between cable and DSL is _the official national policy_ , and
moves like this one make it quite clear that they are providing similar
service.
If you're in an area that still has a CLEC, you might even find a provider
that actually has technical people answering the phone!
~~~
dpark
> _First, the bulk of consumer use does not require high instantaneous
> bandwidth._
The bulk of consumer use also doesn't require high usage caps so this is an
extremely noncompelling argument.
My house also does a ton of streaming and I do a lot of remote desktop. I do
care about decent peak throughput.
> _And from what I recall, cable companies generally throttle those uses
> anyway!_
Maybe? I'm super in favor of net neutrality but I also recognize that
_throttled_ cable internet is still faster than unthrottled DSL.
> _Meanwhile I 'm consistently doing >2TB/mo on DSL._
So by your math, a whopping 6Mbps.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Does contributing to open-source companies increase chance of a job there? - evex
As the title says, Does contributing to open-source companies such as:<p>- Gitlab<p>- Ghost<p>- Discourse<p>- Edx<p>- Google(Angular, Flutter, Tenserflow)<p>- Facebook(React, React Native, Jest)<p>Increases (Dramatically) Chances of getting a job at said companies? to a point where said companies reach out to the contributor?
======
tucaz
I’m going to reply to this just based on (my) logic and zero experience.
The question is: does it increase my chances dramatically?
I believe the answer is: if your contributions are dramatic I believe it does
increase your chances.
How dramatic it needs to be is another discussion.
If you can make significant contributions to a certain community or company,
so much that they can see the difference, how can it not help you?
~~~
evex
That's what first came to my mind as well.
I would like to hear from someone with experience just to rest my mind and go
ALL IN contributing :D
~~~
jolmg
Also based on my own logic and zero experience on the matter, why should they
hire you when you would work so much for them for free? What would be your
standing in a job negotiation?
Not to say it can't happen. For example, if you make cool features for Gitlab,
they may want to reserve it for the paid version but they won't be able to (I
hope) unless you were an employee, causing you to surrender your copyright for
said developments to them.
Still, I think you'd be setting yourself up for disappointment, if you only do
that work with the expectation that they would eventually hire you, when they
have given no indication that they would even consider it. It's too much
investment with little to no guarantee of returns, and most benefit of the
work is gratuitously given to someone else.
It might be better to spend that free time to build a portfolio of independent
projects to showcase to potential employers. Those projects would have your
name on them instead of some company's, and they make it easier to judge the
quality of your work by potential employers. It's easier to judge the quality
of a complete project, as opposed to a few commits here and there in a project
that's been worked on by many people.
~~~
evex
> when they have given no indication that they would even consider it.
That's exactly why I'm asking this question,
> It might be better to spend that free time to build a portfolio of
> independent projects to showcase to potential employers.
I already have a couple(wordhunt.xyz, getquoter.app), but they do not seem
enough to land me a job somehow, and I don't want to apply to 100+ companies
to get someone to hire me.
I would like to choose a company that I like and believe are doing a good
thing, and then apply and get accepted instead of randomly applying to any
company with good pay.
------
DoreenMichele
It seems to me this is kind of how Linus Torvalds got his job. I could be
wrong there, though.
HN comment:
"I've known many more or less unemployable people who started contributing to
significant open source projects, and based on that got hired to well paid
positions."
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18378267](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18378267)
~~~
evex
I see, thanks for your input.
I would like to know for sure if it is good investment to contribute to the
companies that I like :)
------
arduinomancer
Just a theory but I’d bet, for companies like Google and Facebook, grinding
leetcode would be less work and more efficient if your only end goal is to
work there.
~~~
evex
It would be a bit hard for me to get an interview in the first place, I'm not
a US citizen.
~~~
jolmg
They have offices in many parts of the world, I believe. Also, I imagine
sponsoring employment visas is probably something routine for them.
But yes, it's probably harder.
------
em-bee
this is based on my gut feeling, as someone who is hiring and has FOSS
projects we use for work.
first of all, there are multiple factors at play:
does contributing to FOSS projects increase your chances at getting any job?
does it make a difference to which projects you contribute to?
both these can be answered with yes.
having a portfolio of public contributions is helpful. (personally i think it
is unfair to those who can't afford the free time to spend coding, so i try to
reduce the effect, but even then the ability to look at your code will give me
insights that i'd otherwise not get)
if i am looking for a webdeveloper, i probably won't care so much about your
kernel contributions, other than as a general indicator of your skills. at the
worst i might fear that your career interests don't align with the job i can
offer.
so working on a company's codebase is likely going to help make sure that your
interests are aligned with the work i want you to do. but only if the job you
apply for is actually in that very area.
most of googles jobs for example are not angular, flutter or tensorflow.
contributing there will probably not make a difference because you likely
won't be hired to work on those.
it is more likely to matter for smaller projects/companies.
however on your last point, as mentioned by others, unless your contribution
is so significant that you already know the core developers on a first name
basis (like you are in the top 10% of non-core contributors) they won't reach
out to you. bigger companies won't because it's not enough to stand out, and
smaller companies rarely have the funds to hire people on a whim.
what contributing may help you with is to be the first to hear when new
positions open up.
if you are in the inner circle of angular developers, you may find out sooner
if a new position in the angular team opens up. and you may have a chance, not
because you contributed, but because they already know you and because you
were able to submit an application earlier. (they know you because you
contributed, but if you keep a stealth appearance while contributing, so that
you never interact with other developers then that probably won't help)
i have been in that group in one project, and while i didn't get an offer from
the company behind the project, job offers that targeted the experience were
usually posted first on the core developer list, and so i knew about them
early. my actual code contributions though weren't really that significant but
being on the inner circle helped (i organized conferences for the community
and helped edit a book for example).
~~~
evex
Hey, thanks for your input.
So can I conclude from what you said, that I should have my contributions
profile ready for when an opportunity is open at a company I'm contributing
to, I have a higher chance to get the opportunity compared to non-
contributors?
~~~
em-bee
no, the conclusion actually is to make friends with the core developers.
contributing good code is one way to do that, but writing excellent
documentation, or filling some other need in the community can also work.
------
codegladiator
No
------
throwaway2021
No, I've contributed to the Linux kernel more than once and never received a
job offer from Red Hat, SUSE or Canonical.
~~~
evex
I don't think "more than once" can get you a job, my goal was to contribute a
LOT, like full-time for 3-6 months on issues that no one wants to work on so I
actually impress.
~~~
awaywopassd
That is a lot of time to work for free. Why not get a regular job and convince
your employer to let you contribute to Open Source project they use.
~~~
evex
"regular jobs" where I live, offer very bad compensation packages. I see a lot
of remote companies offering good pay along with a good environment and good
benefits.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
How to trigger races reliably in the Linux kernel - sohkamyung
https://people.kernel.org/metan/how-to-trigger-races-reliably
======
loeg
In the FreeBSD kernel, we've got fail(9) for this exact use (since 2009).
Check out the EXAMPLES section of the manual page. You can use the mechanisms
to inject delay on some percentage of executions, and more generally some
integer value can be injected, which can be used to simulate device failures
(EIO) or whatever.
It's very powerful for creating reliable reproducers for all kinds of
failures, including race conditions. And the KPI is not quite as verbose as
the one presented in TFA.
[https://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=fail&sektion=9](https://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=fail&sektion=9)
------
chrisseaton
> Race condition, in terms of a computer programming, is a bug where two
> pieces of code cause an error if executed concurrently.
This article makes the common mistake of saying that a race condition is
inherently a bug.
A race condition just means that observable program behaviour is dependent on
the interleaving of two tasks. A race condition is only a bug if you don't
want one of the possible interleavings.
You can often find great performance optimisations by working out how to work
with race conditions rather than disallowing them.
~~~
adtac
is there any situation where a _data race_ might be useful or accommodatable?
~~~
chrisseaton
For example, some profilers that count the number of times something is run
will update a counter without any synchronisation. This risks lost updates,
but since you really just need to know if the counter is very low or very high
a few lost updates here or there don't really matter.
But I think from some accepted definitions (such as Padua et al) a data race
specifically is a bug, so this data interleaving if we're happy with it isn't
a data race because it isn't a bug.
~~~
robocat
> a few lost updates here or there don't really matter
jerf disagrees in last sentence of other comment:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23079788](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23079788)
~~~
chrisseaton
Well I don't know what to tell you except this is how real production
compilers written by experts work in practice.
[https://github.com/oracle/graal/blob/4553ea71f15c9e4721565e9...](https://github.com/oracle/graal/blob/4553ea71f15c9e4721565e94e838214a1b1274b1/compiler/src/org.graalvm.compiler.truffle.runtime/src/org/graalvm/compiler/truffle/runtime/OptimizedCallTarget.java#L816-L818)
You can argue this is a bug and they shouldn't write like this, but they don't
consider it a bug and they do write like this.
------
klysm
If you manage to reproduce a race, is there some way to capture exactly what
the scheduler did and force it to do that again?
~~~
jfk13
For debugging purposes, for example? You might be interested in [https://rr-
project.org](https://rr-project.org).
~~~
throwaway2048
rr isn't going to work on a kernel.
~~~
Hello71
I'm inclined to say that it will work on User Mode Linux, and it looks like
QEMU does have record/replay functionality.
~~~
loeg
Yes, it works as long as you don't have any real devices that cannot be
captured in a reverse-debugger's state history.
------
EvgeniyZh
there is a gsoc project regarding race conditions in Linux
[https://summerofcode.withgoogle.com/projects/#65400635565015...](https://summerofcode.withgoogle.com/projects/#6540063556501504)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Partial WebAssembly backend for the GNU toolchain - ingve
https://sourceware.org/ml/binutils/2017-03/msg00044.html
======
gant
And thus the era of METAL[1] begins...
[1]: [https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-
death...](https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death-of-
javascript)
~~~
spraak
This is super enjoyable thank you ^_^
~~~
andrewflnr
_And_ compelling. Can you really make that work securely in the kernel?
~~~
amelius
It's a nice idea, but it goes against layered security [1]. Perhaps computer-
assisted proofs can make that a non-issue.
In any case, I would very much like to see an implementation of this.
[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Layered_security](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Layered_security)
------
JoshTriplett
I sincerely hope this gets a good reception, and doesn't suffer the fate of
previous attempts to add similar backends to the GNU toolchain.
In the past, backends for anything usable as an intermediate language received
pushback as possible "escape hatches" by which one could glue proprietary code
(whether frontends, backends, or optimization passes) into the GNU toolchain.
That pushback mostly went away when the GCC Runtime Library Exception came
out, which makes such proprietary combinations much less viable.
So, hopefully this will get merged, or at least get on the path to merging
after further development.
~~~
hamandcheese
I don't really follow. Do you mean, for example, BigCorp making a backend that
compiles to proprietary BigCorpLang? Why would that be such a bad thing?
~~~
foota
I think they mean it compiles to BigBorp ir which is then used with BigCorps
secret sauce optimizing compiler.
~~~
bonzini
That's already happening with the nVidia PTX backend, so I guess that's
accepted too nowadays.
------
joaomacp
Maybe it's a foolish thought, but it occurred to me that maybe in 10/20 years
AAA game titles will have a 'web' version, as well as the PC and game console
ones. Or maybe they let you play a demo for free on the browser, with real
gameplay mechanics and graphics made with wasm or similar tech.
~~~
owaislone
If you have a fast enough internet, you can right now stream games to your PS4
just like Youtube. In 10-20 years time, we'll be able to stream games running
directly on publisher's server farm somewhere.
~~~
larsiusprime
Latency will always be a consideration though; the fidelity might get there in
terms of audiovisuals, but you can't engineer around the speed of light.
~~~
tomatsu
> _Latency will always be a consideration though_
And it will always be _way_ too high for VR.
~~~
Jyaif
They could stream a spherical texture (with depth map). Locally you would only
have to render the sphere from the view point of the eyes.
------
felipellrocha
How is this different than using the emsdk to build?
~~~
bobajeff
Emscripten is a cross-compiler tool chain. This is a back end for a compiler.
Currently Emscripten uses a fork of Clang/LLVM called fastcomp with a ASM.js
backend.
This is a fork of GCC/Binutils with a WebAssembly and ASM.js backend.
~~~
azakai
To add to that, in principle Emscripten could use gcc and this backend instead
of clang and an LLVM backend. Emscripten itself abstracts over the backend
details (it's supported 3 different backends in its history, and currently
supports 2). Most of the code in Emscripten is in the libraries, like
OpenGL=>WebGL, etc., and JS integration code, which shouldn't depend on the
backend.
It would be interesting to get that working and do some code comparisons on
the output.
------
quickben
So what does the future hold? Will this replace JavaScript?
~~~
tannhaeuser
The more imminent concern is that publishers are beginning to bundle browser
runtimes completely replacing native browser functionality along with its
established privacy and fair use expectations. Say hello to unskippable
interstitials, unblockable analytics and targeted advertising, content that
can't be linked, saved/archived, mirrored, cached, shared, translated or made
otherwise accessible.
Developers mostly discuss JavaScript shortcomings and new possibilities
offered by WebAss, but seem otherwise happy to completely throw the
fundamental architecture of the web under the bus.
Technically, what WebAss can do has since long been possible with native
applications; the only thing added here are new software licensing models, eg.
pay-per-use, but mostly tracking/ad-financed.
~~~
skissane
I have the same worry. Page downloads content as some encrypted binary blob,
displays it using <canvas>, impossible to block advertising or copy text.
However, at the end of the day, content providers have to make their content
available in plain HTML format in order for search engines to index it. If
they did the above without offering a plain HTML alternative, they'd lose
traffic from search engines. But, if they are offering that format to search
engines, they have to offer it to us too.
(Okay, they could lock it down so the plain HTML is only available if User-
Agent = Googlebot/Bingbot/etc and source IP is coming from Google/Bing/etc
network. But, will the search engines let them get away with that? I would
hope Google would refuse to index it on the grounds that their crawler is
getting something very different from what the real user sees, but I guess
that's their decision.)
~~~
dasfasf
You can already do all this. In practice, I've never seen a site render its
text and ads to a canvas to make things difficult for me.
IMO, the bigger obstacle to "content that can't be linked, saved/archived,
mirrored, cached, shared, translated or made otherwise accessible" is the
"fundamental architecture of the web": HTTP. You can't link it (who knows if
the person who clicks the link will get the same page?), you can't cache it
(who knows when to invalidate it?), you can't mirror it (who can enumerate the
dependencies?), and so on. Something like IPFS would fix these things (and
should fix these things). But in practice, a fairly cacheable, linkable,
mirrorable, sharable web has been built on HTTP and I expect nothing much will
change when wasm is thrown into the big vat of web technologies too.
------
bitL
This is precisely what I was waiting for! Finally a set of reasonable
languages for web! Many thanks!!!
~~~
7373737373
Is the closer C family of languages really reasonable for the web?
~~~
bitL
In many ways yes, as C can be much more straightforward than JavaScript, which
enforces spaghetti-programming by design (via callback hell). So anyone used
to develop desktop apps, facepalming on trivial problems in JS like loading
resources, can rejoice. And I expect other languages will be ported soon, like
Java, C#, Scala, Python, Go, Rust etc. Imagine getting the whole Java stack of
libraries, .NET or ML stack for Python running on top of WebAssembly with
almost zero differences and at native speeds. Why not?
~~~
josephg
> In many ways yes, as C can be much more straightforward than JavaScript,
> which enforces spaghetti-programming by design (via callback hell).
I don't think this is a fair criticism of javascript. In javascript if you
want to you can define all your callbacks as top level functions and just pass
a function pointer through, the same way you would in classic C or C++. But
nobody does that because its an awful way to write your code. If you want to
do async programming you need callbacks of some form, and putting the callback
inline is better. (Hence lambda functions being added to C++ and java).
Arguably await/defer is better still, and unlike C, javascript now supports
await if you want to write code that way.
The only other decent way to write high performance code is to use lightweight
threads and message passing (go or erlang). But again, (as far as I know) C
and C++ make this sort of code really hard to write correctly because of the
memory model. I'm looking forward to seeing that battle played out in rust,
where both models can work side-by-side.
As for resource loading in JS, promises aren't perfect but they make deferring
code execution on resources loading work great. Just bundle your resource
loading into a promise and then require('./resources').then(whatever =>
{...}).
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Automatically Find Answers for Homework/Quizzes – Homework Helper - kylehoell
https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/homework-helper/dgfigglmnhnamfjbccjoiomogdmglnpa
======
kylehoell
Homework Helper is an Open Source Chrome Extension, that allows users to right
click on Highlighted text/questions, and search for answers using Quizlet.
These answers are then stored in a nice card UI, where users can scroll
through a list, the items are stored from greatest percentage match, to the
lowest. Users can also copy the answer, or even launch the Quizlet page the
answer came from!
Chrome Store: [https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/homework-
helper/dg...](https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/homework-
helper/dgfigglmnhnamfjbccjoiomogdmglnpa)
Github: [https://github.com/subnub/Homework-
helper](https://github.com/subnub/Homework-helper)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Are Group Chat Apps Repeating the Same Mistakes of Email? - aceperry
http://motherboard.vice.com/read/why-group-chat-apps-arent-perfect
======
mark_Liu
Group chat is more effective than email but more fragmentation if no good way
to control. So base this i think the group chat like slack prefer "channel"
which is a type of small group or created by a single target. This will
decrease the fragmentation. As the slack reboot does.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Twitter Shifting More Code to JVM, Citing Performance and Encapsulation - colin_jack
http://www.infoq.com/articles/twitter-java-use
======
raganwald
I like this. I recall a startup some years back with a vision to build
something complex. The founder sat down with everyone and said that we had an
important decision to make: Do we build something that grows or do we build
something that evolves?
Neither way forward was presented as an obvious win. Building something that
grows meant overengineering and trying to forecast the future. Building
something that evolves meant constantly rewriting things, taking time away
from new development.
Twitter seems to have taken the "evolution" route, and it has served them
well. I'm not at all sure they would be this successful if they'd tried to
build on the JVM right from the start using the technologies available at the
time.
~~~
bborud
The problem with Java is mainly that people think they have to use all the
horribly complex, intrusive, badly written, underperforming frameworks that
exist in the Java sphere. And then, of course, you will inevitably be screwed.
To this day it takes _real_ effort to convince Java programmers that a lot of
"best practices" are anything but.
For instance I still see Java programmers use frameworks that require them to
maintain mountains of flimsy XML configs for things that they ought to have
done in code. Both to get the benefit of letting the compiler do the work of
weeding out boneheaded errors and to get rid of unnecessary flexibility that
just leads to more work and more confusing, hard to read code.
Java is a great language in which you can be very productive. But productivity
means that you have to crack down on people who drag along J2EE-crap, or
whatever crap was invented to make J2EE-crap slightly less crap. It also means
you have to mentor people actively and harass anyone who even thinks of doing
in XML what can be accomplished much faster in testable, compiled Java code.
~~~
nerd_in_rage
Yep, I saw this same thing. Mountains of XML deployment descriptors /
"component wiring" (some "Spring" garbage), needlessly verbose and usually
unneeded mapper classes, useless interfaces (my rule is if you are only going
to have ONE implementation save the interface for later after you know you got
it right and need it), extra layers that do nothing (except "map", of course),
etc.
kill me. Makes me want to kill myself.
~~~
GrooveStomp
This exactly describes my very brief experience working with Java
professionally. Back in university it was no big deal - the differences
between C++ and Java weren't _that_ big. In a production environment, though;
... XML, XML, XML!
All the XML-wrapper tools for Java are supposedly the reason why there is so
much XML config stuff going on - but the result is that you end up writing soo
much code in XML instead of the actual language that you're supposed to be
using.
It's like somebody looked quickly at the MVC pattern, got it all wrong, and
now Java has very tight coupling between XML and Java code for any production
environment that hopes to leverage existing tools.
~~~
bborud
And the really bad part is that in Java XML has always been extremely painful
to work with.
------
fizx
One of the key things that was kinda skimmed over: You should check out
<http://github.com/twitter/finagle>.
It takes async network programming with netty into a functional programming
paradigm. Programming scala/finagle network services is much nicer IMO than
coffeescript, ruby/em/fibers, raw netty. I can't wait until we release our
finagle-based cassandra client. It's been really nice to work with.
Here's some sample code:
[https://github.com/twitter/finagle/tree/master/finagle-
examp...](https://github.com/twitter/finagle/tree/master/finagle-
example/src/main/scala/com/twitter/finagle/example)
~~~
jorgeortiz85
I've been using Finagle over the last couple of weeks to build a small little
side-project. It's been almost a religious experience for me. This is how
network programming should be done.
------
clintjhill
In my opinion, the best part of their infrastructure is their willingness to
specialize in languages within each stack. It isn't simply "Java everywhere".
"To allow developers to choose the best language for the job, Twitter has
invested a lot of effort in writing internal frameworks which encapsulate
common concerns."
The single best investment companies can make is to allow developers to choose
their specialty, and their language. Otherwise you have a huge overhead of
skill set mismatch. And your talent pool can be bigger if you're open to more
than one language.
It's a refreshing view.
~~~
badmash69
Twitter can afford the to have multiple languages in their stack but most
start-ups simple don't have that luxury. If you have a early stage start up
with about 10 developers and you need to quickly build a set of server side
component or services for your product, would you want to use multiple
languages to develop that or use one programming language ? Having developers
choose best languages for the job would be disastrous if you end up with your
stack written in 5 different languages. I would not discount the importance
keeping codebase easy to manage.
~~~
j_baker
In my experience, languages don't make a codebase more complex. What makes a
codebase complex is how many subcodebases you have. In particular, I avoid
touching my company's JavaScript code not because I can't do JavaScript but
because it's difficult to learn an entirely new set of APIs.
If you can allow multiple languages to share common code like you can on the
JVM, then I say it's ok to go crazy.
------
lemming
This sounds slightly misleading to me:
_The primary driver is honestly encapsulation, so we can iterate faster as a
company. Having a single, monolithic application codebase is not amenable to
quick movement on a per-team basis. So when we decide to encapsulate
something, then because of our performance concerns, its better to rewrite it
in the JVM for most systems, than to write a new Ruby system._
It sounds from that like their primary driver for using the JVM is actually
performance, but that they only decide to rewrite components when
encapsulation drives them to do so. I can't see how the JVM provides any
encapsulation benefits over Ruby for new systems.
------
sehugg
Netty is a godsend. Java threads are extremely memory-hungry, so async I/O is
a must for handling many connections. We routinely handle 200K simultaneous
connections on our push servers without breaking a sweat.
~~~
fictorial
Mind if I ask what the specs are for those servers?
~~~
sehugg
AWS m1.large. We don't use nearly the entire CPU or memory footprint, but
m1.small just is a wee too tiny and there's nothing in between.
------
russellperry
"...static typing becomes a big convenience in enforcing coherency across all
the systems. You can guarantee that your dataflow is more or less going to
work, and focus on the functional aspects...But as we move into a light-weight
Service Oriented Architecture model, static typing becomes a genuine
productivity boon."
A 'productivity boon'? I don't understand. At the risk of invoking the ancient
static vs. dynamic religious war, this statement makes no sense to me.
I get that if your codebase is tangled enough, and your unit test suite is
inadequate to "guarantee that your dataflow is more or less going to work"
that maybe _rewriting_ significant portions of it in a type-safe system makes
sense. I guess. But without specific code examples it's hard to say exactly
what he's talking about.
Myself, I've spent many years in both static and dynamic environments and I
know exactly where I'm more productive -- and it's not wrestling complex
parameterized types to the ground, pulling up abstract classes or interfaces,
and/or configuring IOC containers, abstract factories and the like.
I wonder though -- this has echoes of Alex Payne's criticisms a couple of
years ago, which I think Obie Fernandez addressed pretty well:
[http://blog.obiefernandez.com/content/2009/04/my-reasoned-
re...](http://blog.obiefernandez.com/content/2009/04/my-reasoned-response-
about-scala-at-twitter.html)
~~~
wpietri
_A 'productivity boon'? I don't understand. At the risk of invoking the
ancient static vs. dynamic religious war, this statement makes no sense to
me._
I don't know what they mean either, but my first guess has to do with company
size and mobility of staff.
I love dynamic languages most when I'm coding solo or with small teams. I
don't need to express a lot of things to the computer when they're so clear in
my head. But if I'm going to take over an adequately maintained code base, I'd
rather it be in a static language, because more of the intent is explicit.
At this point Twitter has a lot of engineers and is still growing, and they're
in a very dynamic business. It's plausible to me that they get a global
productivity boost even though static languages could feel like a productivity
hit to each individual engineer.
~~~
colin_jack
> But if I'm going to take over an adequately maintained code base, I'd rather
> it be in a static language, because more of the intent is explicit
Out of interest would you feel the same if both codebases had adequate test
coverage?
In the post one of the reasons given was that with a static language you can
pretty much guarantee that a dataflow is going to work, that you won't be
caught out by getting the wrong type. I'd see this being most useful at the
edges of the system, and in those cases incoming data would normally go
through some validation anyway (including through a schema in many cases)
which would normally make clear the types involved.
Having said that I do think in those cases being able to specify types can
makes things slightly easier for newcomers, I'm just surprised its seen as a
big enough advantage to be one of the key motivators to switching language.
~~~
prodigal_erik
A decent static type system ensures every object will be compatible with the
types of all its references, no matter how the program may manipulate them.
Only 100% path coverage could replace that guarantee, and that's generally
regarded as infeasible.
No project I've worked on in twenty years had test coverage I could call
"adequate", though I realize this is partly my fault. Hard-core TDD from day
one might get you as far as "mediocre", and the industry average is much worse
than that.
~~~
colin_jack
Sure thing but I was really thinking more of the "more of the intent is
explicit" issue (and its affect on developer productivity) not guarantees
regarding compatibility.
------
jrockway
jrockway's law: add enough developers to a project and it eventually becomes
Java.
~~~
aristidb
Except it seems to be Scala here?
~~~
aphexairlines
"In the case of the search team, since they do a lot of work on Lucene, which
is Java-based, they have a lot of experience in writing Java code. As such it
is more convenient for them to work in Java than Scala or another language."
------
SoftwareMaven
One of the important lessons, IMO, is that you should always be making
pragmatic decisions that work today and into the _near_ future. You can't
predict how your system will change over time, so engineer in today's needs
and let tomorrow take care of itself.
Pragmatic failure inevitably leads to analysis paralysis. Just worry about
getting stuff done. :)
------
petenixey
I wonder if the reason Twitter never sees any significant evolution in product
is because they've weighed themselves down with too much iron cladding on
their services or if they've had more time to iron clad their services because
they never evolve the product.
Neither may be related but for a large company with very little product they
seem to produce astoundingly little.
~~~
akronim
They may have very little functionality, but do it at scale. e.g. even
searching tweets (which doesn't seem to work that great...) is a massive
undertaking (not _astoundingly little_ ) that they're obviously still working
at.
~~~
petenixey
That's a fair point and I don't trivialise the engineering however I am taken
aback by the just how little product they produce. In a similar timeframe
Facebook had created vast swathes of product and dealt with far greater user
numbers than Twitter.
------
rockarage
This is similar to facebook going from php to c++ via hip hop. (
<http://developers.facebook.com/blog/post/358/> ) Very few companies will ever
reach the scale of twitter and facebook. Building with ruby, php, python..
whatever your team is comfortable with is still ok.
------
msie
Holy name-soup, Batman! Stuff that was new to me: Gizzard, Finagle, Blender,
Netty and Earlybird.
------
gary4gar
I wonder how the story had been, if twitter had opted for Python, instead of
ruby.
Do they still have these problems or in these aspects python is better than
ruby?
~~~
hkarthik
Given the huge growth of the site in the first few years and the relative
inexperience of the founding team with problems of this magnitude, I expect
the story would have been the same with Python, Java, .NET, etc.
The simple Web Server -> ORM -> Relational database architecture that most
modern web frameworks utilize can easily break down under tremendous
concurrent load, especially if you attempt to run it on commodity hardware.
------
riprock
As a JRuby fan, I have my fingers crossed that they will switch to JRuby and
help it become "more mature." :)
------
cheez
Hopefully they don't have any Java experts on board.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Android app combines Wifi and Cellular on multiple devices - shoelaceW
http://www.xda-developers.com/android/get-your-videos-faster-with-videobee-for-android/
======
shoelaceW
(Shameless self-promotion) We just released the app as an Open Beta on Google
Play:
[https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.shoelacewi...](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.shoelacewireless.app.videobee&hl=en)
and would love to hear any feedback from you.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Leaving the Nest - shawndumas
https://nest.com/blog/2016/06/03/leaving-the-nest/
======
rdtsc
From
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11105510](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11105510)
\---
outside1234 109 days ago
I worked there. It was literally the worst experience of my career - and I
have worked at all of the hardest charging blue chips and two successful
startups - so it is not about high expectations - but abuse. I still wake up
with something like PTSD occasionally from getting yelled at and bullied by
Tony Fadell almost literally every day while I was there.
I have a distance from it now -- and a way better job. It made me realize that
the culture of a place is really what makes it and that "how" you get results
really matter. I bought into the Apple pedigree of the place without
understanding that the way Tony got there was through essentially wrecking
other people's lives.
I have no idea why Google bought this. Tony literally stood up at an all-hands
after the Alphabet thing and said "Fuck being Googley" (direct quote).
Frankly, if I could offer Larry Page once piece of advice it would be to take
Tony out front of TGIF and fire him publicly -- all of this comes from Tony.
Matt is just his hatchet man and fake cofounder.
There are a lot of great people at Nest and they deserve a better leader.
\---
~~~
outside1234
Kudos to Larry for recognizing it was time to do the right thing and remove
Tony. In this day and age, that sort of courage is pretty rare.
Do no evil indeed.
~~~
danudey
Arguably, the time to do the right thing was years ago, when Tony was abusing
his employees and Nest was making no money other than what Dropcam was making
(meaning that buying Dropcam instead of Nest would have made vastly more
sense).
~~~
outside1234
Yes, but hindsight is 20/20\. The only decisions you can make are the ones in
front of you - and Larry made the right one here.
------
Analemma_
I already knew that Fadell was a jerk, but apparently he's delusional as well.
Via [http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-03/flying-
goo...](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-03/flying-google-s-
nest-fadell-defends-his-record-and-methods):
"I don’t know why I feel this way, but between working closely with Bill
Campbell, working closely with Steve Jobs and watching a lot of my mentors
pass on, unfortunately, I feel like I bear this responsibility now. There’s a
few of us who are keepers of that knowledge. It’s almost our responsibility to
be able to continue that way of thinking, that way of working. Expect
excellence, respect excellence, drive hard, change things, don’t accept the
status quo, push yourself, push the people on your team harder than they could
ever imagine, and they will do more than they could have ever imagined."
You gotta love these incompetent execs, who have taken nothing away from Steve
Jobs' legacy except "be an asshole". Tony, listen: Steve Jobs succeeded _in
spite of_ being a massive douche, because he was a genius who essentially
invented new product categories, and made them work really really well. You,
on the other hand, stuck networking interfaces in common household appliances,
usually making them worse. Your psychopathic treatment of your employees gains
you nothing in that case.
~~~
762236
Jeez, Bill Campbell taught people to be nice! He has stories of sending
abusive execs home to calm down.
~~~
hawkice
Abusive? Maybe, sending fired up execs home. Or an exec who had stepped over
the line. But abusive, as in, a continuous process currently in motion?
Sending them home and letting them come back the next day is not great, and
sometimes a terrible business decision on par with letting aggressive sexual
harassers come back the next day.
Signed, Someone who has had a boss throw chairs at people
~~~
lucisferre
Microsoft?
~~~
hawkice
I'll be putting all guesses into my never_work_here.txt file and then I'll
respond to them all at once.
------
manav
For a company whose primary product is/was the Nest Thermostat, I've found
they have been terrible at innovation and keeping up with competition. The
product has been virtually unchanged for the last 3-4 years. What have they
been up to?
I switched to an Ecobee3 system and found it was far superior in many ways.
Alexa integration, remote sensors (for actual temperature measurements in
rooms), easier install and compatibility if you don't have power going to
thermostat, better wifi, touchscreen interface.
With Google Home coming I wonder what this means for Nest. Maybe it will be
fully absorbed into Google?
~~~
zippergz
This is interesting. I have had Nest thermostats for several years, and
overall I think they're great, but I have definitely felt the need for remote
sensors (our upstairs thermostat in particular is in a really bad spot). A
couple of months ago I seriously considered getting an Ecobee, but I read a
bunch of reviews that complained of stuff like unresponsive touchscreen, bad
UI, etc. The main thing I love about the Nest is that the UX is very simple,
and works well. Anyone in the house can use it without instructions, and it
feels like a thermostat, not a slow Android device or something.
Did you find those to not be issues? Definitely most of the reviews were good,
so maybe it's just isolated people having problems. But I couldn't tell if it
was that, or more that people either aren't as picky about UX as I am, or they
didn't have another point of comparison... I'm very open to re-considering
them if someone can convince me this stuff is a non-issue, because the remote
sensor would certainly make our system work better.
~~~
dmritard96
should check us out - got your remote sensors covered :)
[https://flair.co/products/puck](https://flair.co/products/puck)
~~~
illumin8
Looks cool, but nowhere on your product page does it say it's compatible with
Nest.
~~~
dmritard96
Its on the FAQ but not the product page. Working through the official works
with nest stuff behind the scenes.
------
ArmandGrillet
"We should all be disrupters!": I really don't like reading bullshit like this
in the middle of a blog post. Anyway, I hope this announcement means that Nest
employees will have a better work-life balance, it looked pretty terrible from
the recent articles posted on HN.
~~~
jaawn
I have been cringing every time I see/hear the word "disrupt" (in its various
forms) for a couple years now. In pretty much all cases, the more often a
given person uses that word, the more vapid I come to think they are.
~~~
yoodenvranx
"disrupt" is for startups/VC what "beautiful" is for Javascript/CSS
frameworks.
~~~
trhway
and "delightful" for user experience
~~~
foolfoolz
"elegant" for libraries
~~~
api
Delightfully beautiful elegant disruption.
------
marme
I love that he put "leaving the next" in quotes. He was leading that company
down the drain and got fired, they just dont want to make it look that way.
They have had so much bad press the past year, from nest employees complaining
of a hostile work environment to customers complaining about products being
intentionally bricked. This news is shocking only in that it took this long to
happen
~~~
atom-morgan
I would lol at someone who fired me expecting me to say it this way. If you
fire me I have no further obligation to your doublespeak.
~~~
rdtsc
You don't say it for them. You say it for yourself. You have nothing to gain
by going around telling everyone you've been fired.
~~~
atom-morgan
Honesty. Transparency. Accepting your mistakes and failures.
~~~
scrollaway
All qualities Tony Fadell is known for. Right?
------
Fricken
Okay, so Fadell is out, following reports that Nest is a mess.
Verily, the life sciences arm has similar CEO problems:
[https://www.statnews.com/2016/03/28/google-life-sciences-
exo...](https://www.statnews.com/2016/03/28/google-life-sciences-exodus/)
Boston Dynamics and Schaft are being sold off, and who knows if the rest of
Rubin's robot companies are on the auction block.
And while carmakers, rideshare companies and Autonomous AI companies are all
forming alliances in varying capacities, Alphabet's self driving car project
dance card remains conspicuously empty.
Things at Alphabet are not looking good.
~~~
beambot
> And while carmakers, rideshare companies and Autonomous AI companies are all
> forming alliances in varying capacities, Alphabet's self driving car project
> dance card remains conspicuously empty.
Except for the Ford partnership [1] and a strategic investment in Uber [2].
[1] [http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/28/business/ford-and-
google-t...](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/28/business/ford-and-google-team-
up-tosupport-driverless-cars.html)
[2] [http://techcrunch.com/2013/08/22/google-ventures-
puts-258m-i...](http://techcrunch.com/2013/08/22/google-ventures-
puts-258m-into-uber-its-largest-deal-ever/)
~~~
Fricken
Your first link refers to the Self-driving Coalition for Safer Streets which
also includes Volvo, Uber and Lyft, and it's just a lobby group.
The second link, about Google Ventures investment in Uber is unrelated to the
self driving car program. Uber has, in the meantime, acquired a substantial
portion of the Carnegie Mellon robotics department [1] and has siphoned off
~100 engineers from Bing Maps [2], which to me implies that for whatever
reason Uber wants to be as independent from Google as possible.
To graduate from a science project to a revenue generating business, Google
needs a major manufacturing partnership, and while they've been seeking such a
partnership for years now, no formal announcement has been made beyond a deal
with FCA to outfit 100 Pacifica minivans with autonomous sensors. It was
emphasized that Alphabet and FCA have no plans extending beyond those 100
vehicles [3].
[1][http://www.wsj.com/articles/is-uber-a-friend-or-foe-of-
carne...](http://www.wsj.com/articles/is-uber-a-friend-or-foe-of-carnegie-
mellon-in-robotics-1433084582)
[2] [http://techcrunch.com/2015/06/29/uber-acquires-part-of-
bings...](http://techcrunch.com/2015/06/29/uber-acquires-part-of-bings-
mapping-assets-will-absorb-around-100-microsoft-employees/)
[3] [http://www.reuters.com/article/us-google-selfdriving-
idUSKCN...](http://www.reuters.com/article/us-google-selfdriving-
idUSKCN0YA2ZP)
------
pfarnsworth
Wow. I honestly never thought this would happen. Hopefully this means that the
change in culture at Nest is real, and we can expect better innovation going
forward. As a heavy Nest customer (thermostat, 2 protects and 5 cameras), I've
been sorely disappointed over the last 2 years, and hopefully this means that
my investment in their technology isn't for naught.
~~~
kevan
>I've been sorely disappointed over the last 2 years
I bought a thermostat about a year ago and I've been disappointed too. The
marketing I read and a couple people I knew that worked there implied that new
features were in the pipeline but since I've installed it I haven't seen a
single substantive improvement in the experience.
~~~
zippergz
What changes are you hoping for in the experience? I think my Nest thermostats
work great, and frankly I'd rather that they not muck with that in the name of
"improvement." It's basically an appliance, and part of my house, and regular
software changes would be a real annoyance (other than fixing bugs, of
course). I'd rather they spend their energy on creating new products than on
changing the already (IMHO) solid experience on the existing ones.
~~~
rconti
Stop dropping off the network randomly. They blame it on "crappy wifi vendors"
not supporting 802.11 power save mode properly but I have it on word from
support that Meraki is fully 802.11 compliant.
Would be nice to have optional different displays too. Seems like a silly
thing, I know, but it would be nice if I could just setup the 'normal' display
to show outside temp without having to go to the menu.
------
RankingMember
From what I've read of this guy, this change is long overdue and hopefully a
sign of better things to come (culture-wise and product-wise) at Nest.
------
jusben1369
That awkward balancing act they do between "I'm gone but don't be too scared
I'm still here but really I'm gone" I mean this is like a sentence tennis
match:
```Although this news may feel sudden to some, this transition has been in
progress since late last year and while I won’t be present day to day at Nest,
I’ll remain involved in my new capacity as an advisor to Alphabet and Larry
Page. This will give me the time and flexibility to pursue new opportunities
to create and disrupt other industries – and to support others who want to do
the same – just as we’ve done at Nest. We should all be disrupters!
I will miss this company and my Nest family (although I’ll be around to
provide advice and guidance and help the team with the transition), but I am
excited about what’s coming next, both for Nest and for me.```
------
pboutros
Is Marwan Fawaz also lebanese-american? Tony Fadell is, and Marwan's LinkedIn
looks like he went to a high school in Lebanon. What are the odds!
[https://www.linkedin.com/in/marwanfawaz](https://www.linkedin.com/in/marwanfawaz)
~~~
dguaraglia
Not sure why you are being down voted, unless people are reading some kind of
undertone I'm not seeing.
~~~
pboutros
I hope they aren't - I'm american/lebanese as well, hence noticing.
------
Geekette
I wonder if this has to do with the internal problems at Nest[1][2].
[1][http://www.businessinsider.com/whats-going-on-at-
nest-2016-2](http://www.businessinsider.com/whats-going-on-at-nest-2016-2)
[2][https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11105510](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11105510)
~~~
pkaye
I believe there was a 2 year vesting on stock or bonuses at Next. They got
acquired around early 2014 so I'm sure that has something to do with it. I
expect a whole bunch of others may leave depending on how the new CEO is.
------
iqonik
I was at work the other day when I got a push notification that there was
smoke upstairs from Nest protect. I left work immediately and arrived home to
the smell of burning, an incense plug had been left in and was melting.
Nest saved me, the ROI for me is priceless. Thanks Tony, good luck in your
next venture - learn from your mistakes.
------
c-slice
He will remain as an "advisor" to Alphabet. That's an honorary position if
I've ever heard of one.
~~~
RankingMember
Yep, definitely looks like a face-saving maneuver.
<Tony> "Hey Lar I can at least call you every now and then still, right?"
<Larry> "uh ok".
_adds "Senior Advisor to Alphabet/Google" to LinkedIn profile_
~~~
rdtsc
Well it has the word _Senior_ in it, so it seems like an important position /s
------
paul
I wonder when Google will do a writedown on this deal? $3.2B seems like a lot
to pay for a thermostat company.
~~~
jamra
Especially considering that their product is not at the forefront of smart
thermostats. The learning capability is harmful if you have kids or live in
colder climates. Nest works poorly with home automation solutions as well.
Dropcam was a good product that didn't change since they were bought out. I am
looking into other thermostats and I can't wait to switch.
It seems to me that Google caught a ride on the Nest hype train.
~~~
hkmurakami
Out of academic curiosity, which product(s) is considered to be at the
forefront of smart thermostats?
~~~
karmicthreat
Probably depends on what you need the thermostat for. A home has a very
different set of requirements than say the Burj Khalifa. And a warehouse or
apartment complex might have their own very specialized requirements.
That said Honeywell has products that cover most of those bases at least
acceptably. If you just want something for your house though EcoBee seems to
be the device to get.
------
aboodman
I interviewed at Dropcam right before it was acquired, and it was clear that
it was an amazing place. The team there was so solid.
I didn't realize until recently, but am not surprised to learn, that the
people at Dropcam went on to found several interesting startups:
- https://eero.com/
- https://www.lily.camera/
- https://claralabs.com/
------
f_allwein
previous (Feb) discussion about "Troubles at Nest":
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11105510](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11105510)
------
dreamcompiler
Tony and Elizabeth Holmes should team up to create a wifi-enabled device that
regulates blood sugar for diabetics. It can be hidden in the collar of your
turtleneck. And when it loses connectivity or misreads your glucose level, you
get to meet Steve Jobs.
------
DonHopkins
Just incredible: he used the word "journey" un-ironically.
[http://ourincrediblejourney.tumblr.com/](http://ourincrediblejourney.tumblr.com/)
------
justinv
Marwan Fawaz as new CEO. Anyone know much about him?
~~~
shawndumas
[https://www.linkedin.com/in/marwanfawaz](https://www.linkedin.com/in/marwanfawaz)
~~~
gordon_freeman
I think this should not be downvoted as people can learn a lot about someone's
professional career by skimming through their LinkedIn profile.
------
dclowd9901
Man what I wouldn't pay to see some memes from the internal Google meme host
right now.
~~~
shawndumas
As a happy Nester it's been sad to see...
~~~
dclowd9901
As a former sad nester, I think this news is going to make your life much
better.
------
meerita
I have never used a product like Nest. What is it like for those who are used
to? I live in Barcelona and I never seen anyone using a product like that.
~~~
uptown
It's a thermostat with a digital display, and some learning capabilities that
figure out how you usually manually adjust the temperatures based on your
weekly routine. It can also detect when you're home or not, and adjust
accordingly. You can also use your phone to adjust the temperature remotely.
The idea is it'll dial down your energy usage better through intelligent
management of your heating and cooling systems and a slick interface.
~~~
Ressuder
I think that what gets confusing for a lot of us from Europe is taht we don't
generally have temperature control of our homes like that. There might be some
kind of radiators for heating, but that's generally it.
------
matt_wulfeck
> This will give me the time and flexibility to pursue new opportunities to
> create and disrupt other industries – and to support others who want to do
> the same – just as we’ve done at Nest. We should all be disrupters!
It sounds to me like he's done a terrific job disrupting people's lives and
careers. I find more and more than people who speak like this are interested
in fulfilling their narrow goals at the cost of everything and everyone around
them. After a few years and the novelty of the invention wears off it just
looks petty.
------
hiven
Glad to see him go based on what I have read here and elsewhere.
------
supergeek133
Wow. I think he and Google keep figuring out.. hardware is well.. hard!
I mean they started a revolution in Smart Thermostats (they're also now the
reason people are willing to pay $200+ for a thermostat).
They had a good innovation, found a market at the right time, got bought, and
realized sustaining that type of business isn't easy.
------
vincefutr23
Pushed from the nest?
~~~
newjersey
Regardless of the semantics, one can only hope the change is for the better.
Nest can't lose much goodwill at this point.
Previously, on HN
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11435245](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11435245)
------
tomphoolery
this is why we need an open-source thermostat
------
max_
Imagine if Tony had a HN account and was actualy reading these cmments. How
would he feel?
------
yuhong
I wonder if the fact that he left a day after a lawsuit was filed was not a
coincidence: [https://www.theinformation.com/former-nest-employee-takes-
ai...](https://www.theinformation.com/former-nest-employee-takes-aim-at-
googles-media-policy)
------
exstudent2
Does anyone know of a good alternative to Nest products? I've never liked
their marketing and this blog post doesn't do much to alleviate that feeling
(even though he's on the way out, the tone remains).
~~~
varikin
If you are looking for a thermostat, I have heard good things about the
Ecobee3. It can have several remote sensors around house, integrates with
Smartthings and maybe just zigbee/zwave in general. I only got the Nest
because of a great deal from a family member with an extra one. The downside
is that is can be trickier to wire up. If you furnace is older, you may have
to run an extra wire.
~~~
andykellr
After 2 homes with Nest, I decided to try an Ecobee last December. I prefer
the Ecobee.
1) Vacations: with the Ecobee, tell it when you'll be away (date/time range)
and it will go into vacation mode. I travel often and I can add multiple
vacations in advance. Not a complex feature and surprising Nest doesn't have
this. With the Nest I have to keep tweaking my Away mode temps to ensure that
it warms up when I return and doesn't just switch back to Away and stop
heating (it can take hours to go from 50=>70 when its 15 outside).
2) Learning with the Nest was always wrong for me because I have an irregular
schedule so I turned that off. For me, that was originally an appeal of the
Nest.
3) Ecobee multi-room sensors are awesome. Unfortunately I've learned that my
office is always 10 degrees warmer/cooler in summer/winter.
4) Ecobee is HomeKit/Siri compatible which I haven't really used much.
I installed the Ecobee myself and had to install the little box on my furnace
to provide power. Not ideal, but easy.
------
0xADADA
death knell
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
How a $1,500 Start-up Changed Health Care - bbarthel
http://www.inc.com/articles/201108/jay-parkinson-how-a-start-up-is-changing-health-care.html
======
entangld
His $1500 dollar startup is just the store front for his $100k+ medical
education. There is already a staggering demand for any and all medical
services.
Not as innovative as the headline made it sound.
~~~
narrator
What's interesting about the economics of all this is that the cost of an
office and staff overhead is now greater than the benefit from taking
insurance. Complexity has benefits but it also has a cost that tends to
deliver negative marginal returns after a certain point and the U.S health
care insurance industry passed that point long ago.
~~~
muzz
No, not in general but only for this _one_ particular doctor. He is basically
providing the simplest of medical services to the most well-paying patients.
This is a teeny tiny market, one whose consumers' needs and means are not
reflective of the average consumer of medical care. He may have success doing
this in two zip codes in a metropolitan area, but this business can't be
replicated to any meaningful scale.
~~~
pessimizer
I don't think one or two hundred a visit is very much higher than in any other
context.
~~~
muzz
It's not a high amount for that type of service. I was referring to the
ability to pay the entirety of it, presumably up front, and the willingness to
do so in some cases despite having insurance.
The more significant of the two points I made was the type of cases he could
possibly be seeing. The article refers to only the most basic of equipment
such as an otoscope, no mention of a lab (for blood chemistry, bacterial
tests, etc), so it's hard to see how he could handle only the absolute
simplest of cases.
Essentially he is practicing medicine the way it was done in a previous era.
It's not really "innovative", a better term would be "retro" or "throwback".
------
elliottcarlson
Unless the statement in this posting[1] has changed in the few years since it
was posted, this guy could lose his medical license over this... I'm all for
using technology to make things easier, but something as regulated as the
medical and pharmaceutical industry needs to be thought through and can't just
use any third party tool to do what you want with.
[1]
[http://support.formstack.com/index.php?pg=forums.posts&i...](http://support.formstack.com/index.php?pg=forums.posts&id=80&pc=2)
~~~
Bud
To me, this is just yet another argument to add to the gigantic stack of
arguments against the current way of doing things in medicine.
Lately, I've been doing a side job in which I transcribe focus groups for
various businesses, including several large health insurance firms. I am
consistently stunned at the money they spend on this, and the cynical nature
of the questions they ask, and how completely unrelated they are to anything
even resembling patient care. They just aren't concerned with patient care.
They are concerned with developing "innovative insurance products" to compete
with the supposedly "innovative" offerings from other health care
conglomerates.
People don't want "innovative insurance products". They want affordable health
care, provided by physicians who are not driven to distraction by the
bureaucratic requirements of dealing with ten different insurers who are all
trying to pay out as little as possible.
------
pavel_lishin
Sounds like it changed health care for the people living in those two zip
codes who don't want to go through the insurance company. Woohoo, but I'm
still hosed.
~~~
ars
BTW the patient can still submit the bill to insurance and request to be
reimbursed.
It might be an interesting model to push all insurance work from the doctors
to the patients. I think it may even have some benefits: people will actually
know what they are paying for.
~~~
pavel_lishin
I'll admit outright that I don't know enough about this to have a valid
opinion, but shifting the work from the doctor to me automatically makes me
want to say "no".
On the other hand, a little bit of work done by a lot of people vs. a lot of
work being done by one office, the "crowdsourcing" sounds like a better
solution. The obvious down side is that I have no leverage against the
insurance company - a doctor's office does.
~~~
ars
Actually I think you have more leverage than the Dr. If you are not happy with
the insurance company you cancel the policy or complain to your employer (you
are paying them, the insurance company does not want to loose the business).
The doctor can do nothing - they want to get paid, they have nothing to hold
against the insurance company.
------
muzz
Several questions immediately pop up from the article:
* "He watched doctors treat up to 40 patients a day". Is the article implying that is somehow bad in and of itself? If the doctor has staff to handle paper work, and doesn't travel to each patient, this seems to be more efficient. In economic terms, the doctor is maximizing his comparative advantage (treating patients)
* "It wasn't like this decades ago. ... there was so little overhead." What is the cause of this recent overhead? Certainly doctors had offices and staff decades ago, as they do now. Is it just the insurance part? If that's the case, then just simply perform fee-for-service; doctors are free to do that.
~~~
rdouble
_What is the cause of this recent overhead?_
Salaries for administrators and managers. Like universities, health care
organizations have dramatically expanded the number of administrative staff.
~~~
muzz
Most are private businesses-- they should be run efficiently.
------
dugmartin
We have a doctor here in our little town in Western Massachusetts that is
doing the same but set it up as a non-profit. He accepts barter as payment and
supports other small providers with an open source EMR system:
[http://www.cottagemed.org/index.php?option=com_content&v...](http://www.cottagemed.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=8&Itemid=9)
------
relix
Interesting observation: the permalink swaps "changed" with "is changing".
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Creating beautiful login form using HTML, CSS3 and JavaScript - akashbhadange
http://www.dzyngiri.com/index.php/creating-beautiful-login-form/
======
tangue
The html5 spec is clear [1] : "The placeholder attribute should not be used as
an alternative to a label."
If you really want to do this kind of layout, you should find some accessible
way of hiding labels.
[1] [http://www.w3.org/TR/html51/forms.html#the-placeholder-
attri...](http://www.w3.org/TR/html51/forms.html#the-placeholder-attribute)
------
tfb
While the login form might be pretty, I'm a bit turned off of "dzyngiri" by
the lack of indentation in their code. And it might be helpful to have the
demo/download buttons immediately visible rather than having to click the tiny
X in the box/tooltip/whatever that is. I probably spent a minute searching for
the buttons before finally clicking the X.
~~~
notum
I must agree, the "close to reveal" box is incredibly counterintuitive, took
me a while as well.
------
Posibyte
While this is great and helpful, it'd be really great if we could see more
content in the ways of the theory behind what makes something beautiful.
Something more on color theory, and more things on UX Design like what was
posted earlier yesterday about dialog boxes and meaningful verbs.
I say this because I can read things like webdesign tuts all day, but I leave
not knowing why I did something.
------
notum
Lovely! I'd add "outline: none;" to inputs, chrome displays the ugly orange
border when fields are focused.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Sharecropping in the Orchard: Everything old is new again - raganwald
http://weblog.raganwald.com/2004/11/sharecropping-in-orchard.html?reason_for_repost=app_store_fuss
======
biohacker42
That's a great essay.
I've since long forgotten where I first red the sharecropping metaphor for
software development. But I recall successfully convincing my manager that it
was worth it to build on top of open source instead of proprietary platforms.
When you describe things in terms of business risk, managers understand.
~~~
raganwald
Thank you! I heard the expression "sharecropper" from Tim Bray:
[http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2003/07/12/WebsThePla...](http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2003/07/12/WebsThePlace)
It came to mind again with all the posts about the app store.
~~~
GavinB
What's supposed to stop open source OSes from including a copy of your
commercial function in their next version? Isn't recreating commercial
products for free of the point of open source?
By your definition anyone who doesn't own the OS is a sharecropper.
The real danger is in writing software that is easily recreated.
In the end, all software is made obsolete by better (or better
marketed/distributed) software. The only difference with the OS is that it's a
little faster.
------
nazgulnarsil
the phrase everything old is new again makes me wonder how many times great
inventions had to be invented before they gained traction. Everyone knows that
iPod wasn't the first portable HDD music player, but will people know that in
200 years? What inventions from 200 years ago do we attribute to the wrong
people? (tesla/edison is one obvious example, but I'm sure there are some that
no one knows about.)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
IPv4, IPv6, and a sudden change in attitude - LaSombra
https://apenwarr.ca/log/20200708
======
PaulAJ
The people who make the decisions about IPv6 adoption are not users, they are
ISPs. You get an IPv4 address on your router WAN port because that is what
your ISP gives to you.
From an ISP's point of view IPv6 is a lot of No Business Case. Those three
words are the death knell for any proposal to do anything in any business that
expects to be here next year. It has exactly nothing to do with the geeky
I-could-have-designed-it-better arguments about the technology.
If you are an ISP that is a going concern, with a bunch of customers sitting
on IPv4 addresses, then handing out IPv6 addresses makes no difference, except
when it breaks something. You still have to give your customers just as many
IPv4 addresses. So why bother?
If you plan to migrate your customers to IPv6 then you are a lunatic. Its
going to break stuff. Lots of websites don't exist on IPv6, and customers are
going to notice. Also your customers have spent the last 20 years slowly
picking up bits of IPv4 lore, like the vital importance of 192.168.0.1, and
are going to be puzzled when this doesn't work any more. All of this
translates into higher support costs and more customer churn.
Also, your allocated block of IPv4 addresses is a valuable asset in its own
right; not only does it have real financial value (around $20 per address at
present), but it also acts as a barrier to entry for competitors; if you want
to set up in business as an ISP you are going to have to acquire some IPv4
address blocks from somewhere, and they aren't making any more of them.
Managers are trained to look for barriers to entry to their industry, and the
current IPv4 situation is exactly that. No sane manager is going to do
something to make it easier for new competitors.
Eventually, of course, the dam is going to break and IPv6 will become
ubiquitous. ISPs will decide that buying blocks of IPv4 addresses costs more
than providing new customers with IPv6 plus some kind of carrier-grade NAT for
legacy IPv4 addresses. More website hosting companies will support IPv6 in
response, and suddenly IPv4 will be _so_ last-decade.
~~~
jesboat
> If you plan to migrate your customers to IPv6 then you are a lunatic.
Well...
Comcast made IPv6 on-by-default to all residential customers some time ago
(IIRC) and available (not sure if on-by-default) to all business customers.
[1] Verizon requires all LTE devices to support v6 [2] and achieved >70%
penetration in 2016 [3] (I'm too lazy to find a more recent statistic.)
T-Mobile launched v6only in 2014 [4] and hit >90% in 2018. [5]
> Eventually, of course, the dam is going to break and IPv6 will become
> ubiquitous. ISPs will decide that buying blocks of IPv4 addresses costs more
> than providing new customers with IPv6 plus some kind of carrier-grade NAT
> for legacy IPv4 addresses. More website hosting companies will support IPv6
> in response, and suddenly IPv4 will be so last-decade.
In short, that happened.
[1] [https://business.comcast.com/help-and-
support/internet/comca...](https://business.comcast.com/help-and-
support/internet/comcast-business-internet-learn-about-ipv6/) [2]
[https://www.apnic.net/wp-
content/uploads/2017/01/vzw_apnic_1...](https://www.apnic.net/wp-
content/uploads/2017/01/vzw_apnic_13462152832-2.pdf) [3]
[https://archive.today/20160719154102/http://www.worldipv6lau...](https://archive.today/20160719154102/http://www.worldipv6launch.org/measurements/)
[4]
[https://www.internetsociety.org/resources/deploy360/2014/cas...](https://www.internetsociety.org/resources/deploy360/2014/case-
study-t-mobile-us-goes-ipv6-only-using-464xlat/) [5]
[https://pc.nanog.org/static/published/meetings/NANOG73/1645/...](https://pc.nanog.org/static/published/meetings/NANOG73/1645/20180625_Lagerholm_T-
Mobile_S_Journey_To_v1.pdf)
~~~
WarOnPrivacy
> ISPs will decide that buying blocks of IPv4 addresses costs more than
> providing new customers with IPv6 plus some kind of carrier-grade NAT for
> legacy IPv4 addresses.
This implies an ISP can do math. Frontier acquired lots of IPv4 addresses w/
it's $10B purchase of Verizon assets(in 2015 & $7B in 2010 & 2B of AT&T).
Frontier has no plans to ever deploy IPv6.
~~~
bluGill
How long before someone (probably in Asia) decides that their IPv4 address is
worth more than the few customers who get there on IPv4?
~~~
mgbmtl
At some point (but probably in more than a few years), IPv4 users will be the
new IE6 of the Internet.
------
alexarnesen
The article was worth it just for this gem:
'If we were feeling snarky, we could perhaps describe IPv6 as "the String
Theory of networking": a decades-long boondoggle that attracts True Believers,
gets you flamed intensely if you question the doctrine, and which is notable
mainly for how much progress it has held back.'
~~~
Sean-Der
This trend has been bothering me a lot lately.
In standards bodies you will have a 'True Believer' about a particular topic.
They will push it for years and years, and eventually get their way. The idea
isn't bad, and would be great if included in the spec from day one.
Unfortunately adding it to what we have today causes massive
breakage/incompatibility.
Maybe I am just being resistant to good change. It just is frustrating because
in most cases the 'True Believer' isn't going to go worry about the real-world
impact of the change.
This phenomena seems to be hurting a lot of programming languages as well. So
much harder to say no, and idealistic people are always going to find a way :)
~~~
m463
I think, like python 2->3, the chaos and confusion of trying to pull off a
"clean slate reboot" is very rarely successful or worth it.
~~~
Dagger2
There wasn't really any way to avoid what v6 did though. v4 can't handle
addresses that are bigger than 32 bits, and that's the end of it.
v6 also has pretty much every backwards compatibility mechanism that can work
with v4. It's hard to see how it could've done any better, and nobody I've
ever talked to has managed to come up with anything that a) would work and b)
isn't already a thing v6 does or can do.
I've seen plenty of proposals that don't satisfy those two conditions (like,
"just add an octet" or "just make the numbers go up to 999")...
------
gorgoiler
IPv6 is great if you control lots of components that need to talk to one
another. Life is much simpler when you can trivially have thousands of
globally routable addresses. It provides great value without having to be 100%
deployed and for that, I am grateful.
I liken it to a commercial kitchen. Large numbers of identical steel pans,
everything measured in grams, Cambros, walk-in refrigeration. Ideas and tech
that are unlikely to catch on in the home kitchen, but when you operate at a
larger scale, invaluable.
~~~
tomalpha
> ...everything measured in grams...
> Ideas and tech that are unlikely to catch on in the home kitchen
Given the posting time I’d guess you were _likely_ not US based so I found
this surprising.
Even if that _is_ so, then I continue to be surprised every time I rediscover
the fact that the US hasn’t moved towards metrification.
Edit: rereading this the wording is harsher than intended. So to add: Either
way the wording tickled me for some reason. Whether intentional or not, thank
you (genuinely) for the smile this morning.
~~~
nikanj
Metric units are a mouthful. Centiliter <-> ounce. Kilometer <-> mile.
Centimeter <-> inch.
I think having easy-to-pronounce names for the metric units would help. Kliks
are much better than kilometers.
~~~
dx034
I've never heard anyone say Centiliter. It's milliliters or liters. You find
cl or dl on bottles but I've never encountered it in spoken language.
Which is nice because having fewer units make it easier to compare, even if
converting in metric system is easy.
~~~
ralls_ebfe
Shot glasses are 2cl around here.
~~~
dx034
I believe they're 2cl in all of Europe, never heard anyone use it outside of
refering to it.
------
ohazi
This motivated me to bite the bullet and jump through the hoops to set up an
IPv6 address for my personal server. I got all the way to the end and then
just when everything looked like it was working, I tried to load the page
and... nothing. Turns out my _home_ network doesn't currently have an IPv6
address. Comcast in the SFBA seems to alternate giving out IPv6 addresses and
then taking them away again every few months or so.
Works on my phone, though, so ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯...
~~~
divbzero
My ISP doesn’t support IPv6 either. I get 0/10 on WiFi _vs._ 10/10 on mobile
using Test Your IPv6. [1]
[1]: [https://test-ipv6.com/](https://test-ipv6.com/)
I’ve considered emailing to ask them to support it but haven’t come up with a
persuasive reason for why they should.
~~~
executesorder66
> but haven’t come up with a persuasive reason for why they should.
I don't know about you, but whenever I see an ISP, hosting provider, or
website that supports IPv6 I think: These guys know what they are doing, they
care about quality, and they actually plan for the future.
I'd much rather do business with someone that supports IPv6 because of the
above impression.
If I was running my own business that provided network related products or
services I'd make IPv6 support required because I don't want to seem like I'm
incompetent/lazy/ignorant.
So in short the persuasive reason is that it would improve their reputation.
Technical people notice these things and base their recommendations on these
sorts of impressions.
~~~
rjsw
This was one factor when I chose my current ISP, they have provided IPv6 for a
long time.
------
sandstrom
Still some distance to go, but Google see 30% of traffic from IPv6 now. It’s
slowly getting there.
[https://www.google.com/intl/en/ipv6/statistics.html](https://www.google.com/intl/en/ipv6/statistics.html)
Also, with most cloud hosting (AWS et. al.) it’s fairly trivial to enable dual
stack support.
~~~
zokier
> Also, with most cloud hosting (AWS et. al.) it’s fairly trivial to enable
> dual stack support.
I say AWS IPv6 support is pretty atrocious. You still can not set up pure IPv6
VPC, even for internal use, afaik most AWS services are still accessible only
through IPv4, IPv6 VPC has lots of weird limitations, etc etc. Somewhat sad,
considering that one would think AWS would be one to benefit from v6
~~~
sandstrom
Agree, it's sad and strange that they can't provide that.
Still, hosting an IPv6 service on AWS is fairly simple (at least in my
experience).
------
ncmncm
This article demonstrates yet another way that Postel's Law is a terrible
design principle.
The amount of damage adherence to Postel's Law has caused can never be
exaggerated. It has made securing TLS extremely difficult. It makes every kind
of migration or evolution difficult, and interferes with securing anything.
The way to enforce The Anti-Postel's Law is with tests that include requests
and responses to be rejected, and fuzzers that explore the whole boundary of
well-formed interaction. Such a test will never detect every improper
toleration, but it will make equipment and programs that don't conform hardly
ever work, until they are fixed.
People used to like compilers that were lax about syntax requirements and
provided lots of extensions. GNU compilers obliged, for a while, and then
stopped. Now, even users of Microsoft compilers have demanded Standard
conformance, and have nearly got it. A compiler that won't report errors is a
way to generate lock-in. That was fine with Microsoft until they understood
that it was locking them in, too.
------
bsder
IPv4 continues to exist because consumers are subject to ISP monopolies.
"Symmetric bandwidth" or "Running my own server" are not criteria that can be
used to choose an ISP because there is _NO_ ISP that offers either one in most
of the country (US).
Since nobody can run their own servers, there is no pull for a larger chunk of
addresses that would drive IPv6 adoption.
~~~
dx034
Not offering symmetric bandwidth has technical reasons. You only have a
limited amount of bandwidth with most technologies and the vast majority of
consumers is much better off having higher download than upload speeds.
I'm actually glad that ISPs default to only giving one IP address per
household. Not having most devices directly reachable from the internet is an
extra layer of security. It should never be the only one but can be an extra
step to make it harder for atttackers to introduce malware.
~~~
shmerl
No technical reason today, except for ISPs not upgrading to modern technology
(fiber optics) because of being short term profit cheapskates.
~~~
_hl_
This is not true. With fiber, if you want to go full-duplex, you need to
specify which frequencies you want to use per direction. Because 99.9% of
users use much, much more downlink thank uplink, it does not make sense to
reserve an equal amount of bandwidth for up and downlink, because that would
reduce the uplink bandwidth per fibre. Symmetric bandwidth is wasteful for
everyone but the content providers (who might even want asymmetric bandwidth
but with more up than downlink).
~~~
welterde
I think you are thinking of coax (cable) and not FTTH. Fiber has a much wider
frequency range and one tends to think in wavelength terms and not frequency.
And rarely is more than two wavelengths used for connecting customers (leaving
most capacity of the fiber unused).
With FTTH there are two common deployment strategies: dedicated fiber per
customer (then there is no reason at all why it wouldn't be symmetric) or
(G)PON. With GPON the issue is that multiple customers share the downlink and
uplink. And while it's easy to make the downstream burstable (meaning you can
use more than 1Gbit/N - with N being the number of customers sharing the
upstream GPON port), since only the ISP transmits in that direction for the
upstream each customer gets assigned a timeslot to transmit (since GPON only
uses a single wavelength for transmit and another one for receive). This means
that even if the connection is symmetric at the ISP end (1G down and 1G up)
one customer only gets 1G/N uplink bandwidth while they might briefly be able
to completely saturate the downstream.
~~~
shmerl
NG-PON2 improves on that by a huge margin: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NG-
PON2](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NG-PON2)
------
quaintdev
One terrible way to switch to Ipv6 faster is to make existing services
available only on ipv6.
Or create some cutting edge application that will work only on ipv6
I know ipv4 users like author mentioned will still be able to access them
because someone else will plug in. We are stuck with ipv4 for decades, aren't
we?
~~~
dtech
> We are stuck with ipv4 for decades, aren't we?
This was always going to be the case, even with more speedy adoption op IPv6.
It's also not really a problem.
Making services just available for IPv6 is going to be a recipe for disaster
of the service, you've now made the service unavailable for 80-90% of your
audience, and they can't do a thing to fix it (their ISP has to). You need to
be better than start-up-era Google, Facebook, YouTube or Netflix to push
through that and force ISPs to adopt IPv6 to support you. Basically
impossible.
Forced adoption is a much better model. Apple forcing iOS apps to work on only
IPv6 connections if they want to get into the app store probably is one of the
largest drivers of adoption by businesses small and large, and IaaS providers
especially.
~~~
AndrewDucker
You're locking out 67% according to Google's latest figures.
51% in the USA.
Still too many to make it practical, but getting there.
~~~
dtech
That's good to hear :) I had numbers from a good while ago in my head then.
------
angrygoat
The 'noise' on this plot of Google IPv6 adoption is interesting:
[https://www.google.com/intl/en/ipv6/statistics.html](https://www.google.com/intl/en/ipv6/statistics.html)
It looks quite periodic when you zoom in: at first I thought it might be
different adoption rates in different timezones, but there's only one sample
available per day so that doesn't explain it. Anyone know what might be going
on?
~~~
teraflop
It's higher on weekends and holidays, which is presumably connected to mobile
devices having a significantly higher rate of IPv6 adoption.
~~~
why_only_15
You can see on the graph between March 10 and March 24 the significant
increase in the number of people working from home by the proportion of ipv6
usage
~~~
jcranmer
You can also see the much higher utilization of IPv6 at the end of December
that's pretty consistent for the last few years.
------
pferde
> That is, the ability for your connections to keep going even if you hop
> between IP addresses. If you had IP mobility, then you could migrate
> connections between your two internets in real time, based on live quality
> feedback.
This bit is solved pretty well by
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multipath_TCP](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multipath_TCP),
but of course, both ends of a TCP connection have to support it.
------
javier10e6
In 2008 I was asked in one company to add ipv6 from a network stack because it
was going ot be a government mandate to support ipv6. That came and went. In
2015 I was asked to add VLAN support to another network stack
[https://tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc5517.txt](https://tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc5517.txt)
to allow duplicate ipv4 address to co-exist in the same network. Ipv4 is not
going anywhere, it doesn't have to. IpV6 is an effective way to segment your
network at the hardware level.
------
lostmsu
What I am severely disappointed about is Microsoft restricting Teredo to their
Xbox services.
Previously it was quite easy to get IPv6 connectivity at home when your
provider only offered IPv4. In fact you'd get IPv6 connectivity by default.
But at some point 1 or 2 years ago that just stopped working altogether, and
my recent attempts to get IPv6 over Teredo back failed: you can establish
tunnel, but it does not transmit packages to IPv6 hosts.
Now I am at the hands of my ISP.
------
Causality1
A lack of fail-over is a problem at almost every level. Like how if my home
internet has gone out and I've connected over wifi to my phone's hotspot, I
have to disable my ethernet adapter before I can get at the outside world over
wifi.
------
themew
As long as Reddit is ip4 only, ip4 won't go anywhere...
~~~
Dagger2
NAT64+DNS64 works fine for Reddit. I run my desktop without a v4 address and
have no problems with it.
I'm running the NAT64 myself, but it could be done by the ISP just fine, at
which point they wouldn't need to provision me with a v4 address. There are
major ISPs out there that do exactly this (for example T-Mobile in the US).
------
hkt
Honestly, having worked for a hosting company in the past that was fastidious
about IPv6 support, I can say a couple of things:
* It is almost definitely not worth it commercially, unless you've carved out your space in the community of people who specifically want IPv6
* It is much, much harder to work with than IPv4 and I don't believe this is only a lack of exposure
* Dual stacking is expensive and requires staff to pursue training with very uncertain levels of reward
IPv4 address space shortages.. could have been addressed by doubling the
number of bits in an IPv4 address, rather than throwing out the many tools
that already worked.
The last point in particular is heresy to network engineers, but perfect sense
to commercial types. Adoption should be cheap, if not free. The huge up front
human cost of training people to operate IPv6 is uneconomical. A 64bit IPv4.1
would be fine for decades.
~~~
throwaway2048
There is a weird persistent idea that all anyone really needed to do was
"extend ipv4 addresses" and everything ipv4 related would have remained
compatible.
No, it still absolutely would have completely broken everything and anything
that used ipv4, all the tools would still need to be thrown out.
There is basically no way such a proposal could work and maintain any sane
level of compatibility.
Its evident right on its face, how exactly would an ipv4 only tool connect to
a 64 bit "ipv4.1 address" ?
~~~
mprovost
There were proposals for backwards compatible addressing schemes. But they
were rejected for a "clean slate" approach. Almost 30 years later, we can see
how successful that was...
EIP (Extended Internet Protocol) [0] was proposed in 1992 as a replacement for
IPv4:
"EIP achieves maximum backward compatibility with IP by making the extended
space appear to be an IP option to the IP hosts and routers.
When an IP host receives an EIP packets, the EIP Extension field is safely
ignored as it appears to the IP hosts as an new, therefore an unknown, IP
option. As a result, there is no need for translation for in-coming EIP
packets destined to IP hosts and there is also no need for subnet routers to
be upgraded during the transition period."
[0] [https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc1385.html](https://www.rfc-
editor.org/rfc/rfc1385.html)
~~~
welterde
IPv6 can do that too though! 6in4 is exactly equivalent to the proposed EIP
extension. EIP still splits the internet into the old legacy v4 internet and
the new EIP internet that cannot communicate with the old internet, since
while you can send packets to a v4-only host it won't know what to do with it.
You need to preserve this extra information - and IPv4 simply cannot do that.
You cannot fit more than 32 bit of information into 32 bit..
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Getting Up to Speed - jfe
I learned XHTML and CSS in the mid-late 90s, back when Zeldman.com, K10k.com and Waferbaby.com were really popular. I got into systems software engineering not long after that, and haven't really looked back. Now, the web has come a long way since the pre-Ajax days, and I feel it would be smart to develop at least a working knowledge of the fundamental web technologies.<p>So, what, in your opinion, are those fundamental technologies, and in what order do you propose they be learned?
======
eranation
Few tips from someone who started in the dot com bubble and had to adjust
during the years:
\- prefer [https://developer.mozilla.org/en-
US/](https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/) over w3schools
\- Get to know Bootstrap / Zorb / grid base layouts
\- Understand responsive design
\- the 2 above combined means - no more table layout
([http://giveupandusecss.com/](http://giveupandusecss.com/))
\- DOCTYPE really matters - don't go into quirks mode (no more table
height="100%"...
\- jQuery of course, and then Angular.js / React.js / Ember.js (and perhaps
also Backbone.js)
\- Any of the following back end stacks - Rails, Django, Play, Node.js/express
(depending on which language you prefer, Ruby, Python, Scala/Java, JavaScript)
\- SQL (Postgre / MariaDB / MySQL) and MongoDB won't hurt
\- Tooling - Get to know Github, Heroku, AWS etc...
\- Understand that you can do almost anything with JavaScript nowadays, it can
get to about 1/2 the speed of native code now and improving every day.
\- Understand that you can do almost anything with pure CSS nowadays,
animations, drawing, 3D. e.g. no more image buttons.
\- Flash and Applets are dead (de facto) HTML5 can do everything you needed
one of these before (cameras, sound, video, chats, sockets, animation, 3D,
really, anything)
\- You can use any font you want (webfonts)
\- XML / SOAP / XSD stayed in the enterprise world, the web / SaaS world seems
to have favored the less strict / more dynamic REST / JSON approach
\- Speaking of REST. learn REST, the HTTP verbs and how to design an API
\- Understand JS templates, and client side MVC, and that your backend is
becoming more of an API (that can serve both mobile apps and web apps as one).
e.g. no more JSP / PHP mess of business logic bundled with presentation logic.
\- Understand that your JS code base is going to be much bigger, and learn
technologies that will help you such as - TypeScript / CoffeeScript / Dart,
AMD / CommonJS / Browserify, Bower / Ender. Grunt / Yeoman. I know it sounds
like a big mess of buzzwords, but there are tons of tools out there to help
you organize your client side code (also look at SCSS and Compass to help with
organizing your CSS and reduce boilerplate)
this is my short list, but in the end as other said, it's all boils down to
HTML5, CSS3, JavaScript and HTTP... the rest are just syntactic sugars...
------
curiousHacker
I think the fundamental technologies of the web are HTTP, JavaScript, HTML5,
and CSS3 and should be learned in that order.
~~~
mathattack
What's behind the order?
I would have thought HTML5 -> CSS3 -> Javascript
Get the markup right, then make it look nice, then make it functional.
Basically learning in order of how pages are created.
------
carise
It kind of depends what you're going to use those technologies for (i.e. what
kind of webapp you want to build), but you can learn a lot about web
technologies by building a simple blog, if you don't have something particular
in mind. That will give you a direct, quick exposure to both backend and
frontend technologies. Or you can search for tutorials and demos, then hack
them to do more.
I'm sure others will have great suggestions, so I'll pitch a few to start with
(I don't have a particular ordering in mind):
Frontend:
Javascript (tons of great books and online resources out there, e.g. MDN and
Douglas Crockford:
[http://javascript.crockford.com/javascript.html);](http://javascript.crockford.com/javascript.html\);)
HTML5 ([http://www.html5rocks.com/en/);](http://www.html5rocks.com/en/\);)
CSS3
Backend:
SQL (yes, this isn't really new technology); NoSql or something similar; Some
kind of web framework, e.g. Ruby on Rails, which will provide you the
interface between database and frontend (and much more); Some familiarity with
web servers (just because you have to worry about that for your web framework)
Apologies in advance if I put the technologies in the wrong group...
------
jakozaur
There are quite a few decent websites which can teach you and help to
understand those technologies, e.g.:
[http://teamtreehouse.com/](http://teamtreehouse.com/)
[https://www.codeschool.com/](https://www.codeschool.com/)
Would take one of the paths for web developer.
~~~
toomuchtodo
I'm partial to [http://www.bentobox.io/](http://www.bentobox.io/)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
How to Port from Python 2 to Python 3 (2019) - noego
https://stxnext.com/blog/2019/04/16/python-3-migration-guide/
======
ryandvm
Python 3 and IPv6 are the poster-children of how _not_ to do a major upgrade.
I'm not sure what the right way is, but if the short-term advantages of the
upgrade do not outweigh the immediate pain, prepare for the matter to drag out
for _decades_.
~~~
segmondy
Upgrades are just hard.
See perl5 to perl6 GWbasic to Qbasic to VB to VB.net
you either make a clean break or keep all the warts, Either way folks are
going to be unhappy.
Keep the warts, COBOL, Fortran, C, C++, PHP, Excel
~~~
Asmod4n
Ruby did a great job back in the day with their 1.8 release which changed the
language to be Unicode friendly.
~~~
mixmastamyk
What did they do differently? I guess they benefited from hindsight.
------
LoreleiPenn
Hopefully no more people will keep saying "learn Python 2 because 3 has almost
no packages".
It is so easy for people to just repeat what they heard even if that idea
originated a decade ago and was valid a decade ago.
And that way we got into a mess of not migrating until pass the time it is no
longer supported...
------
zdw
I've been doing a lot of Python 2 -> 3 lately, and found this to be one of the
best actionable guides:
[https://portingguide.readthedocs.io/en/latest](https://portingguide.readthedocs.io/en/latest)
Also, using tox on the project to run tests against both python 2.7 and
multiple versions of 3 and the work goes pretty quickly.
~~~
mixmastamyk
Looks like a lot of the guide assumes you want to run on Py2 and 3
concurrently. The time for that has passed to be honest. A clean port is
easier to do.
~~~
zdw
For larger code bases making direct jump straight to Py3 that breaks Py2
compatibility without a transitional period can be problematic especially if
it's a library.
The time may have passed, but lots of code is still out there that needs to be
updated.
~~~
mixmastamyk
Maintaining two branches shouldn’t be a problem. If you waited this long to
port, velocity on the legacy branch can’t be especially high.
Now that I think of it the legacy branch should be eol soon.
------
pjc50
We built a product with an embedded Jython interpreter. Jython is stuck on
Python2 and somewhat abandoned. So that's nice.
Re: packages, one of the huge advantages of the C ecosystem has been that
compiled packages are _usually_ fine across language transitions, not only
between major compiler version numbers but even from C to C++ which are much
more different languages than Python2 to 3. How different would the Python
transition have been if it were possible to load Python2 packages in a Python3
program?
------
o_x
Isn't it ironic that Sentry is one of the tools mentioned in py2->py3
migration? (Sentry is on py2 and as far as I remember they were not very
optimistic about migrating)
~~~
zojirushibottle
that's correct. sentry itself is on python 2.7, not the python client.
not to pick on sentry here, but you know, my experience is that people are
having a hard time migrating due to them using obscure tricks and features of
python 2.7. so their code is breaking because the language evolved.
the saying goes write dumb code or something because debugging is twice as
hard. if there is anything to learn from all this, it's to write dumb code
because maintenance is twice as hard too.
that's all that is happening really!
~~~
ggregoire
Why would you even build a logs collector in python? Especially if it’s your
core business and you know you will need scale and reliability. You kinda
shoot yourself in the foot.
~~~
baq
they're using python 2.7. perhaps started on an earlier one. maybe there was
nothing except java 1.4 when they started.
------
zitterbewegung
The big issue of ports like these is not the tutorial but to justify that to
your boss.
From enterprise to a self run startup you have to see if it’s worth it .
~~~
GrayTzar
Hi, I'm one of the STX Next content crew. We actually have a companion piece
to this that goes over the reasons why you should migrate:
[https://stxnext.com/blog/2019/07/30/why-migrate-from-
python-...](https://stxnext.com/blog/2019/07/30/why-migrate-from-python-2-to-
python-3/)
Maybe that would be useful for a conversation with one's boss.
------
swalsh
I literally just got on a phone call to discuss our migration away from 2.7,
very timely post.
------
classified
IIRC, the Python used in the macOS vim(1) is still 2.x. So at least on a Mac
it won't be possible to just move on to Py3 and forget / uninstall Py2 for the
foreseeable future.
~~~
cinnamonheart
I think you can just do
brew install vim -- --with-override-system-vi --with-python3
To get a vim with python 3 on mac os. You are correct that it defaults to
python 2, though.
------
mixmastamyk
Porting is a non-event for most non-large projects. In short:
\- First cut a new major version
\- Write a few tests if needed, they go a long way here.
\- Update to 2.7 best practices and logging
\- Run tests, commit
\- Add a few future statements, commit
\- Run pyflakes3 on it, fix, commit
\- Run under 3.x/fix until clean, commit
However, if your project is huge and/or does a lot of string and bit twiddling
it's excruciating. Hence the controversy between factions.
------
grifball
sed -i 's/print \\("[^"]*"\\)/print(\1)'
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
FBI arrests CEO of company selling custom BlackBerrys to gangs - Element_
https://www.engadget.com/2018/03/11/fbi-arrests-ceo-of-custom-blackberry-company/
======
lulia
for having a http-only website?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
State of OpenJDK - Mark Reinhold [video] - hyperpallium
https://fosdem.org/2020/schedule/event/state_openjdk/
======
hyperpallium
covers many features, including destructuring switch, multiline steings, and
virtual threads. The justifcations are interesting.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: What would it take for you to change your view on domestic surveillance? - bko
Most people on this forum (myself included) are pretty skeptical of domestic surveillance in terms of effectiveness and the implications on civil liberties. After every attack, I feel like the media is having the same conversation about trade-off between civil liberties and surveillance. Could you foresee any event that would make you drastically change your opinion on domestic surveillance, one way or the other?
======
jacquesm
I strongly believe that terrorism can't be combated by surveillance no matter
how much of it you throw at the problem it is simply the wrong approach. So
for me there is no 'event' that would sway me to the side of pro dragnet
surveillance. In fact, I believe that dragnet surveillance actually makes
matters worse.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
America's Baby Bust - tokenadult
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323375204578270053387770718.html
======
lutusp
Only a conservative bastion like the WSJ would describe a declining fertility
rate as a crisis: "The root cause of most of our problems is our declining
fertility rate."
That's true only if we accept the model where growth must be constant and
unending. Doctors call that cancer, but economists call it healthy growth.
How is it that all these intelligent people don't understand that population
growth _cannot_ be constant and perpetual? That eventually we run out of land
to put all those happy consumers?
~~~
anigbrowl
It's a crisis because the ratio of workers to retirees has been almost flipped
on its head. by 2030 two individuals payroll taxes (SSI, medicare) are
supposed to support each retiree, down froma opstware ratio of about 16 to 1.
That means either benefits have to be slashed, or taxes on the employed have
to soar. In practice there's a bit of both and more savings from reducing
waste, but there's still a big gap to close. The boomers were a big
generation, but they had far fewer children than their parents and lived far
longer. This is a pattern that has already appeared in many other countries.
You'll see movement on immigration reform this year, because it offers the
best way of correcting these imbalances without massive tax hikes or benefit
cuts, and and can get us through the hump to a longer-term population
equilibrium after 203 or so. See this elegantly-explained summary of the
issue:
[http://www.ssab.gov/documents/immig_issue_brief_final_versio...](http://www.ssab.gov/documents/immig_issue_brief_final_version_000.pdf)
~~~
czr80
Your concerns implicitly depend on productivity per worker remaining constant
over time. As that is not true, it's not clear that the changing retiree to
worker ratio is as big a problem as you claim.
~~~
anigbrowl
Wages have not risen in proportion to the worker:retiree ratio, nor have
revenues since things like payroll taxes are capped. Many productivity gains
are the result of capital investment and automation and are thus captured by
the employer.
~~~
DenisM
I'm afraid that's because the wages are linked to cost of living, rather that
outcome. Even software developers with some serious pricing power on today's
market are often reluctant to switch jobs unless they can't afford something
"essential", be it simple rent increase, or another Hawaii trip. I call this
"tragedy of employment" - people being paid at cost rather than value.
One solution to that problem might be replacing payroll tax with another tax
that is closely correlated with productivity rather than wages.
------
n1ghtm4n
OMG! America is under attack by birth control pills! Yes, women in the US
freely choosing to use birth control is _just like_ forced abortions and house
raids in China.
"The root cause of most of our problems is our declining fertility rate."
Global warming, terrorism, droughts, hurricanes... all caused by birth control
pills.
"The replacement rate is 2.1. If the average woman has more children than
that, population grows. Fewer, and it contracts. Today, America's total
fertility rate is 1.93... it hasn't been above the replacement rate in a
sustained way since the early 1970s."
Let's just ignore the immigration from countries with replacement rates far
above 2.1 that has increased the US population by _100 million_ since the
early 70s.
"First, global population growth is slowing to a halt and will begin to shrink
within 60 years."
Overpopulation isn't a problem because the spread of birth control and women's
rights will solve the problem in 60 years. So let's block birth control and
women's rights.
"...growing populations lead to increased innovation and conservation."
Horrible droughts lead to increased innovation and conservation of water. Yay
horrible droughts!
------
nikster
I have considered raising my children in the US - I had the chance to do so,
and I was comparing it with Europe and Asia. Settled on Asia because not only
are there no incentives to raise Children in the USA, there are actually huge
disincentives. \- highest education costs \- lowest quality public education
\- highest college costs, compare this to the EU and England where high
quality colleges like Cambridge and Oxford are free. In the US, having 2 kids
pretty much determines where ALL the money of a typical middle class family
will go for the next 20 years. \- Few facilities in cities, eg parks and so
on, vs EU \- High cost of hired labor vs Asia, nanny and so on \- Dont expect
the state, or anyone, to help you. \- Society as a whole hostile to children
vs Asia where children are loved by everyone.
Given the circumstances, I am surprised the birth rate is as high as it is; I
guess a lot of it is down to immigrants...
Its very hard to raise children in the US. As long as that remains so the
birth rate will remain low.
~~~
rmk2
> highest college costs, compare this to the EU and England where high quality
> colleges like Cambridge and Oxford are free.
British universities are anything but free, unless you manage to get
scholarships (which don't exist for undergrads, as far as i know) for
everything. However, in that case, the same would apply for the US...
edit: For an overview over the undergrad fees (p.a., for _home_ students) as
of last year, have a look at <http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-12880840>
~~~
SimonInman
This is not really correct.
Although the government has recently raised the maximum tuition fees that
Universities may charge (from around £3000 to around £9000 per year), this has
not affected the financial provisions available to first-degree (i.e.
undergrad) home students.
The government supplies student loans for both tuition fees and maintenance
(i.e. living) costs, which (supposedly) only garner interest at the rate of
inflation.
In addition, there is extensive means-tested financial support available from
both the government and from Universities. I went to Oxford a few years ago
and received full financial support. My income (in addition to the ~£3K
tuition fee loan the government paid the university directly) from
loans/grants was in the region of £9000, with about £5k of that being non-
repayable. Although this was the maximum possible, it was hardly uncommon for
people to get it, or to get some proportion of it.
There are also numerous smaller grants handed out by both the university and
its constituent colleges on the basis of financial need and otherwise.
(In response to the increase in tuition fees, Michael Moritz (Sequoia Capital
chairman) donated £75m to Oxford, with the express goal of keeping tuition
fees low for disadvantaged students:
<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-18785041>)
~~~
rmk2
The original claim was that UK universities are free, which they are not.
Just because you don't pay for it immediately does not make something free.
And even if you end up not paying back the full amount, you still end up
paying _something_ back.
Additionally, relying on loan reduction schemes or scholarships does not mean
education is free. The Scandinavian countries would have been a better
example, because education is truly and actually free there, i.e. you do not
pay anything (and as a citizen, you will probably get money -- which is not a
loan and does not have to be paid back -- from the government as financial
aid, further enabling students).
On top of that scholarships for Masters degrees (depending on subject) are
exceedingly rare (and not means-tested), with few loan options available (none
of them government-funded, if I remember correctly).
------
codewright
And people in Silicon Valley look at me weird when I say the thing I want most
is to leave SV, move back out to the country, and start a family.
Yuppies. Pfah.
Edit:
This subject dovetails into the thread about remote working (for me anyway).
There are a few number of people that would like to work with me but if
they're not willing to do so remotely (previously my main way to work) then
it's no dice.
My freedom is the cost for my labor.
------
orangecat
Another indication that we should seriously pursue life extension and
preventing the effects of aging. Overpopulation is unlikely to be an issue,
and we really don't want to have a large portion of the population incurring
high medical costs and unable to be economically productive.
------
danteembermage
I'm also wondering if there aren't deeply ingrained subconscious feelings
about raising children that come from a natural even evolutionary response to
crowding in our immediate environment. A species which naturally reduces
fertility in response to crowding will be less likely to experience explosive
growth followed by terrible crashes as all available food sources are
exhausted for mere survival. The fertility rates were really low in the NIMH
mice utopia studies when population density was high.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_B._Calhoun>
~~~
anigbrowl
The US ranks #184 among countries in terms of population density. I don't
think your theory is borne out by reality when you consider that lots of other
countries have higher fertility rates and much larger cities with greater
overall population density.
~~~
nikster
Well if you want to live anywhere you can actually find a job youll live in a
densely populated area in the US. Sure there's a lot of land in the US and I
actually believe it will benefit the country in the long term - but at the
moment, nobody lives there.
~~~
philwelch
Even densely populated parts of the US are not densely populated. We have huge
yards, giant parking lots, and long drives from place to place. Aside from a
handful of cities, the US is designed to resist density.
------
jpxxx
TL;DR: Will everyone start having more babies already? Because otherwise we're
going to be overrun with coloreds, education, and quality of life.
Sincerely, Bill "Genocidal Dominionist Warlord Antichrist" Kristol
------
gyardley
Sure, because people have many kids as an economic strategy. If you believe
you'll need your family to take care of you in your old age, you'll have more
kids.
Of course, the reason why people don't believe they need their family's
support in their old age has a lot to do with government spending on programs
like social security - which requires a lot of younger taxpayers to sustain,
taxpayers we're no longer producing.
Eventually something will give, since situations that can't continue forever
won't. Our social safety net will weaken, and fertility will increase
accordingly. I hope this happens smoothly, and not all at once.
~~~
philwelch
I suspect that this attitude directly collides with the notion that there are
just fewer jobs to go around because of automation. If they're both true, both
problems solve each other.
~~~
waps
When social security triples (due to number of dependants), which it will do
in less than 20 years, it will require a 100% tax rate.
After that, costs will increase further.
~~~
philwelch
Not if productivity also triples. The mistake is having a separate payroll tax
earmarked for social security. If the government just eats the liability,
drops payroll taxes, and raises income taxes to compensate, it'll be fine.
Alternatively they could just supplement payroll tax out of the general fund.
It's not nearly as dire as the doomsayers make it sound.
------
heydenberk
The (inverse) correlation between life expectancy and fertility rate is quite
apparent[1].
[1] [http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&#...</a>
------
purplelobster
So, let me see if I get their recommendations right: gut social security and
medicare, gut education and build more roads? Brilliant.
------
Futurebot
The solutions won't be cheap, nor will they be culturally or politically easy
to swallow in this country, but it's where we'll wind up - one way or another.
Life extension/youth preservation/immortality research (what kills more that
diseases of age, eventually? We also use "old" as a synonym for "decrepit",
but when we decouple "years alive" from "likely level of health/ability to be
independent", this problem goes away), mass roboticization (to care for the
infirm, do all the menial work, etc.), and of course, a reworked economic
system where everyone is guaranteed a basic income.
It won't be an easy road, and it's not coming any time soon - too many are too
inured to our current systems because of ideology (particuarly ideologies
informed by the Just World fallacy, Social Darwinism, the belief that
starvation is better than sloth, and mindless anti-Utopianism) will fight
tooth and nail against anything that might lead to a world like this. In the
end they'll lose, but perhaps history will credit them for making sure we
don't go too far too fast.
------
jseliger
Someone sent this to me, and I wrote about its non-, half-, and full-truths
here: [http://jseliger.wordpress.com/2013/02/02/a-fools-errand-
and-...](http://jseliger.wordpress.com/2013/02/02/a-fools-errand-and-ill-play-
the-fool-jonathan-last-and-what-to-expect-when-no-ones-expecting/) .
------
pasbesoin
The problem isn't declining birth-rates. It's societies that are structured
upon ever-increasing populations.
With respect to where and when declining birth rates -- and older parents,
presenting greater health risks -- are considered to be a problem. (Such as,
individual impacts upon well-being and quality of life, and the health of the
child.) I agree with several other comments here that the contemporary U.S. is
creating significant dis-incentives, particularly for those in positions where
they are trying to prevent a decline in their own and their family and
children's socio-economic status and opportunity -- and, again, health.
The U.S. is a democracy, so I'm not trying overly to blame "someone else".
------
Zigurd
One of these predicted dire consequences is not like the others:
"Low-fertility societies don't innovate because their incentives for
consumption tilt overwhelmingly toward health care. They don't invest
aggressively because, with the average age skewing higher, capital shifts to
preserving and extending life and then begins drawing down. They cannot
sustain social-security programs because they don't have enough workers to pay
for the retirees. They cannot project power because they lack the money to pay
for defense and the military-age manpower to serve in their armed forces."
I'm surprised the author did not complete the circle of irony and claim we
need to project power because of low birth-rate China.
------
dos1
> _Second, as the work of economists Esther Boserups and Julian Simon
> demonstrated, growing populations lead to increased innovation and
> conservation._
Well I'll just bet that a shrinking population could also lead to innovation!
It may mean innovation in different areas, but when pushed to their limits,
humans seem to respond more often than not with a solution.
~~~
emil0r
Not likely. There are several problems with an aging population. The two big
ones in regards to innovation is a shrinking economy and a lack of energy.
Both being driven by the young.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
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Nuclear-Powered Icebreaker - georgecmu
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear-powered_icebreaker
======
coolspot
See also one and only one nuclear-powered merchant ship in service -
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sevmorput](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sevmorput)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
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Online Tracking and Publishers’ Revenues: An Empirical Analysis [pdf] - joker3
https://weis2019.econinfosec.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2019/05/WEIS_2019_paper_38.pdf
======
joker3
OP here. I think I saw the WSJ writeup of this paper posted a few days ago,
but it was kinda light on actual details. This is the actual (working) paper
and is quite a bit more detailed and specific.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
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Not So Anonymous: Bitcoin Exchange Mt. Gox Tightens Identity Requirement - ssclafani
http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2013/05/30/not-so-anonymous-bitcoin-exchange-mt-gox-tightens-identity-requirement/
======
waterlesscloud
The anonymity aspect of bitcoin has always been overplayed. It's possible to
be anonymous, but you'd have to work at it. And the transactions themselves
are in the public record forever, so you've got to _never_ slip up, even years
later. Good luck.
The most interesting news today was the interview by American Banker with the
head of FinCen. The questions are pretty probing, and they get some
interesting answers.
[http://www.americanbanker.com/issues/178_104/fincen-
chief-q-...](http://www.americanbanker.com/issues/178_104/fincen-chief-q-and-
a-what-we-expect-from-digital-currency-
firms-1059485-1.html?zkPrintable=1&nopagination=1)
~~~
deoxxa
I've always found that interesting. Sometimes you look at a dollar and think
"where has this been?" - with bitcoin you can answer that question as far back
as "who created this money" (to various degrees of pleasure or dismay.)
~~~
brazzy
In most cases the question makes no sense, as bitcoins do not have identity.
------
afreak
This is not really a surprise. If MtGox expects to survive as a business (if
it can at all), then it will need to start tightening up the rules or else it
will suffer the fate of not following regulation.
------
bdcravens
After the big Mt. Gox hack in 2011, in order to get my funds out, I had to
send a photocopy of my ID to be verified (pretty sure there were other
mechanisms, but that one seemed the one with the least friction). I'm a bit
surprised that there's any expectation of anonymity with Bitcoin if you're not
100% non-fiat.
------
theboywho
I think every journalist willing to write about bitcoin should know by now
that mtgox security or anonymity issues has nothing to do with Bitcoin (I mean
who is at Forbes and doesn't do his homework ?). This is another article that
proves Forbes is clearly lobbying against Bitcoin.
Bitcoin is intended to be an anonymous decentralized solution for buying and
selling stuff, you shouldn't be exchanging it for fiat money in the first
place, but if you want to do so, of course you can, but then that's your own
problem, not bitcoin's.
Forbes clearly doesn't want bitcoin to make it. They are saying it loud and
clear by writing misleading articles.
------
hkmurakami
I wonder what fraction of (1) the trade traffic, and (2) Bitcoin asset
ownership cares deeply about the anonymity aspect of bitcoin.
As a corollary, I wonder what fraction of each would stop using bitcoin as a
result.
~~~
bnferguson
I think those that use Mt Gox aren't so concerned with anonymity. They've had
some level of verification for a couple of years.
For those that are concerned with it, they use other means.
------
lucb1e
Sending an identity card (including social security number), proof or
residence, and lots of personal details was not enough yet? Didn't have to do
any of this on Bitcoin-central, that's why I don't use gox anymore.
------
yason
There's still no substitute for cash when you need true anonymity. How long
till cash is made illegal?
~~~
PeterisP
Large amounts of cash are already either non-anonymous or illegal in most of
western world - i.e., prove and record your identity along the cash deal, or
else.
------
drivebyacct2
Sigh. MtGox != Bitcoin. It's so painful to the community and cause to
perpetuate this sad meme. I for one welcome whatever might make MtGox more
reliable until someone else competent comes along.
~~~
verroq
I'm sure the other exchanges will soon follow suit. Since MtGox is responsible
most of the bitcoin trades it might as well be Bitcoin.
~~~
oleganza
Even if MtGox handled 100% of USD-BTC trades, it is still not Bitcoin. Many
more transactions are happening on Blockchain that has nothing to do with
MtGox or any other currency exchange.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
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Roads and Bridges: the unseen labor behind our digital infrastructure [pdf] - steveklabnik
https://fordfoundcontent.blob.core.windows.net/media/2976/roads-and-bridges-the-unseen-labor-behind-our-digital-infrastructure.pdf
======
Animats
The first seven pages of "me, me, me" can be skipped. Then comes the important
part - that the number of people behind some major open source tools is very
small. Everybody on Github knows this - once you get past the top 50 or so
open source projects, the number of active developers is very small, often 1.
This paper just presents this for a popular audience.
It goes off in too many directions at once, though. This needs to be tightened
up to about 5-10 pages.
(At one time, Python's SSL support was maintained by a World of Warcraft
guild. They had security problems organizing raids.)
~~~
spacemanmatt
It really flies in the face of the common assumption that someone smarter than
[present company] is in charge of [difficult domain or problem] that we solve
with a library.
------
z3t4
Development time could be treated as a sunk cost, and given that open sourcing
it would improve the quality and maybe also get people working on it for free.
You should open source as much as possible. But only if you are confident
about your business plan.
The problem I think is that all the one man shops _don 't have_ a business
plan.
------
sosuke
I liked the story format and hope it brings more attention to the need for
support of open source projects to folks who would otherwise not know anything
about it.
| {
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ONiO.zero offers a RISC-V Microcontroller that runs without battery - jacobr
https://www.cnx-software.com/2020/01/08/onio-zero-offers-a-risc-v-microcontroller-that-runs-without-battery/
======
dang
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21961869](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21961869)
------
dmitrygr
was recently posted. no datasheet available, just a generic website with a lot
of unsubstantiated promises and an email harvester. basically marketing spam
until some actual data is available.
------
gmaster1440
Is this similar to a passive[1] NFC device?
[1] - [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-
field_communication#Desig...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-
field_communication#Design)
------
ISL
"... and ever-growing RISC-V instruction set."
RISC: "Reduced instruction set computer"
?
~~~
flibbityflob
The article is probably describing RISC-V as growing in popularity, not number
of instructions.
The distinction between "reduced" (RISC) and "complex" (CISC) is more
philosophical than "number of instructions."
Even as the RISC-V specification gains new instructions, the modular design of
the architecture is specifically designed to allow implementations to pare
down to just the subset they need.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
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50,000 users install malware from the Android Market - rbarooah
http://mashable.com/2011/03/01/android-malware-apps/
======
rbarooah
"Remember, the Android Market is open, which can be great and unfortunate in
different circumstances. Always read user reviews before you download; and if
you have any doubts, play it safe."
This is how Apple's approach is good for developers. Their customers don't
have to play it safe.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Less Wrong : The New Nostradamus - billswift
http://lesswrong.com/lw/17t/the_new_nostradamus/
======
billswift
I considered linking to the first article linked in the Less Wrong post,
<http://www.good.is/post/the-new-nostradamus/> , but it's a couple of years
old, and there are several interesting links from the comments of the LW post.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
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I need someone to build my website. My budget is $200 and I need it ASAP. - bdclimber14
How many times have you been asked this by friends, colleagues, and referrals. The person generally continues to say...<p>"I really don't need anything too advanced. Just a simple ecommerce/wiki/forum/community website. With a blog. It shouldn't take you more than a few hours. I actually could even do it myself no problem, but its just not worth my time. You know, I used to be the #1 COBOL programmer in the 70s."<p>At this point, I sarcastically interrupt "Would you like me to program your website in COBOL so you can maintain it?" They never get the satire...<p>"Oh, and really important. I like this website (shows random crappy website) that my friend has. Can you make it like this? You know, but different? We're ready to launch, all we need is the website, and we need it done ASAP. If you say its going to take 8 hours, I expect that you could get it done by tomorrow."<p>I usually respond to this with "Sure thing, if you pay in full now, I'll have it ready tomorrow morning." I'm never serious, but no one ever pulls out their checkbook either. Usually this ends the conversation, as if the website were so trivial, it doesn't warrant compensation.<p>My Analysis:<p>This happens to me almost weekly. I never accept these jobs obviously, but I find the apparent, almost desperate, need fascinating. Despite the plethora of "do-it-yourself" website builders (weebly, SquareSpace, Clover, heck even WordPress.com) these "small business" minded people aren't having their needs met. In fact, they are generally so technology inept (despite their COBOL tenure) that they wouldn't be able to navigate the "3 easy steps of building a website" on any hosted CMS if their lives depending on it.<p>I think this is where the hosted CMS market is failing. These companies are trying to make a CMS so easy, it's like making a Facebook fan page. The problem is, these small business people can't even make those! They usually hire a student to do that as well. What they really need is someone to hold their hand through the entire process. They demand the service of a $10k+ project budget with a top design firm, but have a $200 "I can do it myself if I wanted to" budget.<p>If someone could figure this out, they'd be siphoning up a billion dollar market easily. I don't think technology is the sole answer. I think it's a combination of extremely lean business processes with technology. Get cheap labor to do the hand holding while using the 3rd party CMS solutions. The small business wants to send an email describing what they want the homepage to say. They don't want to use a website builder to edit text. They don't want to do anything but talk to someone. The cheap labor can do the transition, and margins can be high.<p>I'd REALLY love to hear your thoughts on this. I never leave a problem as big as this just complaining. I always race to come up with a solution, and this one is a toughy.
======
SHOwnsYou
I am either giving up a huge secret or revealing how little I actually value
my time...
You guys are giving up a huge opportunity.
It is easy to make a thousand or more per week from these types of jobs. A
thousand isn't a lot, but it is easily done in a few hours.
_If they are paying commodity prices, then you give them a commodity._
The key? Boiler - Plate. Have a standard contract. Have a standard website
theme, perhaps with multiple skins. Make it easy for them to enter their own
content. You can build a decent CMS in a few hours or a great CMS in 10-15
(for clients like this that don't need extensibility). Amortize it over the
5-10 websites you're selling each week and you're time costs go down
drastically.
I stumbled onto this strategy accidentally.
_I had nothing else to do for a few hours._
My BATNA was earn $0/hour. I wasn't going to let my pride get in the way of
easy money.
So I took a small "build me a website" job. Knowing they had small
requirements, it was easily done in a few hours. I kept getting more requests,
I kept sending out virtually the same website, over and over. I was getting
them onto the host I use also and making an additional $50-$100 for each
client as well.
Eventually it was only a matter of explaining how hosting works and how to add
new pages and content. After the 30-45 minute explanation, it was coming out
to move like $400/hour rather than $200 for a website.
Big Tip: Record your phone calls and meetings when you're explaining how
hosting works and how to work your CMS. Go over what you said each time and
work to actively improve it. Take 30 minutes, record screen capture videos
with voice over. Give these to the client when you give them the minor
training required.
~~~
benchmark
I tried something similar. I designed websites for five local restaurants, all
at the same time, then SEO'd them into top positions on Google. Then I went
door to door to each restaurant and showed them the websites, live online.
The restaurant owners wouldn't need to do anything. They could assume
possession of the website that very day (I would only need to change some
pictures and change the website name from "Your Family Restaurant" to their
name).
Guess what... I only moved one, and even that one was a special deal. I
couldn't even rent the other websites out for a small monthly fee.
I figure it wasn't a price point as much as they just didn't see the value in
having a website. If they did, they'd already have a website.
Lesson: Let people come to you. Let them have the need first.
BTW: Every now and then, late at night, I'll get a takeout order for lettuce
wraps and fried rice (sigh).
~~~
SHOwnsYou
>"Lesson: Let people come to you. Let them have the need first."
That is not the lesson your experience. The lesson is the make sure there is
demand before putting in a ton of time, especially when you're going to be
bitter about it later.
Your project was doomed from the start.
You committed the time to build 5 websites and SEO them to the top spot before
you had _any_ demand.
If you had waited until a restuarant actually wanted a website, and then
realized that even a small application can be made in a few hours for a few
$hundred, then you may have had better results. Pre-emptively making websites
or scripts is the opposite of what I've suggested.
So the next lesson is to not do work before getting paid (unless it is also a
hobby - like building a database class that you will use in freelance
projects).
I would have also approached selling the websites differently. Showing someone
a website you're trying to sell them and then finishing with "I just need to
change some pictures and stuff" isn't that compelling. You have 5 websites.
Customize one for each restuarant you're talking to. They pass? Change it up
with different pictures and titles. Let the customer see what they're buying,
not some representation. This is more time consuming, but it will help sales.
You already sunk time to designing, building, and SEOing the sites, so an
additional unpaid 20 minutes probably won't hurt you too much.
Also you can't just assume why people didn't buy the websites. You should have
done some random calling after the fact to determine _why_ people weren't
buying. But I will throw out a few ideas on that too.
You approached restaurants trying to sell them a commodity without knowing
what they want. They could have not bought because of the price, because they
didn't like the colors, they were intimidated by it's complexity, underwhelmed
by its simplicity, or because they didn't think they needed a website (you
really need to be making calls).
When someone comes to you with a budget and a need for a website, you are in a
position of power. You can dictate more terms. Building a random websie
without requirements or a scope and then approaching people takes the power
out of your hands.
Finally, there are thousands of companies that don't have a website because
they don't know how to make one or think they cost tens of thousands of
dollars. These are the types of companies you can be trying to advertise to
(but not cold call/approach).
~~~
benchmark
I knew the risks I was taking, but I took them anyway. I thought a pre-built,
pre-ranking website would be a sweet offer, but I was off.
~~~
Pharmguy
Benchmark, are you still designing websites?
------
dpcan
In my opinion, SquareSpace (and others) is missing the boat by not having a
white-label system for web developers to resell their services invisibly.
People pay web devs because they don't want to take the TIME to learn it and
do it themselves.
The reason people offer $200 is because they really want to pay someone for 8
hours of work for $200, it has NOTHING to do with web design.
If you are starting a candy store, that's the business you are in. Candy. They
don't want to be web developers. At the same time, they don't have much money.
A hired hand who can do the work, manage the content, setup the design, but
still use the easy tools available would be perfect. Then we COULD charge
$200, be done in a few hours, and have happy clients.
Most people won't care what you use to create their site as long as you get it
done and it was affordable.
~~~
slantyyz
Aren't all the web developers just white-labelling WordPress these days?
On the money part, you're right. Small businesses that are used to paying
their staff < $10/hr aren't used to paying the prices for a pro.
For some reason, devs aren't in the same mindspace to these potential clients
as lawyers, dentists and architects.
------
kls
The margins are just too low on these, hell a decent copy writer is going to
cost you half of that if not more. If it needs to have a polished look add a
graphics person to that. And that's just to get all of the creative done. I
just don't see how on the thin margin of $200 to $500 it can be done. Even
with offshore labor the onshore management would eat it up to the point that
it would not have a value proposition worth perusing. With canned text, stock
images, and a stock template, sure it could be done. But these people never
look for a just add water site. They want the "make it like x" twitter,
Facebook whoever they want to knock off that week.
I have a friend who owns a vending operation and I promised to sit down with
him and show him how to design his own site with GoDaddy's tools and how to
use Ad Words to market his service online. He was actually surprised at how
easy it was to do. Now he wont win any design awards but for his market
something that disseminates some simple info is all he needs. $200 is really a
DIY budget and that is all I could really see that someone could do to service
this market. It took me 3hr to teach him how to handle it himself. And if
someone where instructing people how to do it themselves with these simple
site builders they could make a decent freelancing salary. I just don't see a
product here that could do better than the existing watered down site
builders. Without professional a copywriter and graphic design you will get
the same results, offshoring copywriting seems like a bad idea and offshoring
graphics requires some management oversight. Until these can be automated I
dont see the margins.
The reality is $200 barely covers 2hrs labor for a good mechanic. Developers
require a lot more knowledge and skills than mechanics. For some reason people
get the idea that this should not be the case but $200 for professional
services set's up unrealistic expectations.
~~~
phranc
> Developers require a lot more knowledge and skills than mechanics
Oh? Care to elaborate on this statement or stop while you're ahead.
~~~
kls
Yes I can, my grandfather, my father and myself (in my early life) where all
Aircraft Mechanics. I am still a motor-sports mechanic (hobbyist for off-road
motor-sports team) and restore old Jeeps, Bronco's and Scouts. From Frame to
finish. I can tell you emphatically that software development is more complex
than Mechanics. Further, I do hobbies work in the automotive electronics space
and develop software that uses CAN, OBDII and hack ECU's. The development
environments and list of technologies required are far more spare because it
is an fairly heterogeneous environment but I did not say anything about
automotive programming (though I do believe that it is less complex than web,
mainly because it is not cluttered by technology soup) I was speaking
specifically about pull a part off, replace it, run a diagnostic machine on it
mechanic. I specifically chose mechanic because it is a trade I know a lot
about given that it is the family business.
------
drivingmenuts
Well, one solution is to point them to that freelancers site. There's always
people there who are willing to put together some sort of solution for the
bottom dollar. I went digging around there the other day and was completely
appalled at all of the budgets I was seeing. Some of them wouldn't even cover
the cost of writing a proposal for the solution.
In one sense, yes, they deserve a solution to their problems, but one can
always hope they learn a bitter lesson by going with the lowest possible
bidder on that site.
------
acconrad
So I'm going to be brutally honest with you...I was a freelance web designer
in college and I completely agree with what you're saying. The trouble is, the
solution is already out there...
www.vistaprint.com/websites.aspx
DISCLAIMER: Yes, I work for them, and yes I built that page. But you guys
aren't our market (too savvy) so I posted it because you probably didn't even
know we made websites.
If I were still a freelancer THAT would scare me. The price point is exactly
in the budget of your stereotyped user - $200 is like the price of the
PROFESSIONAL package, you could go even cheaper for the simplest stuff. As
SHOwnsYou pointed out, paying commodity prices is using boilerplate, and that
is EXACTLY what we use...there's no magic tricks here: we make it easy for
non-technical baby boomers and older (the LEAST tech savvy) to have a website
at a price they can afford. The UI is simple enough for a 40-yr-old business
owner to make a site. And to the point of the original poster, yeah we are
capitalizing on a booming market.
I think the problem is that people want what they can't have: a beautiful
looking site at a great price. As I said, speaking frankly, you get what you
pay for with our templates. I would never have created those templates and
called them my work as a freelancer, but I think the HN community of
aesthetically-seasoned designers/developers/entrepreneurs generally forgets
that the overwhelming majority has NO IDEA what good design is like and truly
DOESN'T need it. This is perhaps the BIGGEST lesson I've learned about
business, and truly echoes the sentiments of the greatest creed in marketing,
"KNOW YOUR TARGET MARKET."
I guess in the end, the problem from a web designer is that they refuse to
produce commodity work, and justifiably raises their rates, when they COULD be
making money hand-over-fist if they just kept a slew of simple, cheap
templates and just did the labor of porting them to a website for their
customers and charging next to nothing. Each transaction would seem like
peanuts to most freelancers, and they would feel like they aren't earning
anything, but this is a numbers game, and the numbers don't lie.
------
coryl
You're right in that its not completely just the issue of technical solution
or implementation.
When your friends come to you, they trust YOU to understand their problems,
and know that they can lean on you (ahem, extra features please!) and that you
won't run them wrong. It may be a matter of intimidation; they're too scared
to ring up a web design/consulting place because of embarrassment, price
rates, whatever. After all, if they really just wanted the site done, they'd
have already looked at some solutions before coming to you, but often, you're
the first stop.
So I wouldn't go ahead and necessarily say that their needs are being unmet,
and that this is a billion dollar untapped market. I'd say your friends are
ignorant of a bit of knowledge, and simply exploring their relationship
network. Its the same way we'd go to our mechanic friends for an idea about
getting our engines fixed, or the same way we'd ask other expertise friends
for their advice.
~~~
bdclimber14
True, but most of the referrals I get are friend of a friend (or more layers).
However, if my mechanic friend said "Here's a really easy way to figure out
the problem yourself" I would definitely take it.
------
zbruhnke
I get this kind of thing all the time from friends and family mainly, almost
always it is someone who "just needs something basic" and "it shouldnt be a
big deal" however, I am a perfectionist and everything is a big deal lol so
inevitably i spend time on it making it perfect and they go on thinking that
what I did it for is what those services cost. most of the time I feel I am
simply doing a disservice to people who actually have to make their living
designing sites, however at the same time I have a problem saying no and
throwing together a website in a couple hours typically just gives me a break
from whatever coding project i am currently working on ... I guess to each
their own, but I dont mind this kind of thing as something to pass the time.
Although to share a recent favorite, my Dad owns a company in which he sells
gate operators and automated entry systems and he had a client that wanted to
be able to bill every month by how many times an individual went in and out of
the site, after explaining a few options to him i decided it would be easiest
just to write a batch file that dumped the transactions form the controller
into a CSV and from the CSV into access which would then generate the reports
for billing with memorized reports.
I told my dad that which he understood (barely) but when the job was given to
another vendor he called dad to ask what software he needed to purchase to do
this, when dad told him i was just going to write a batch file to do it he
responded "Oh yeah, well I could do that but I really dont have the time, so
ill just let zach do that if he wants to then, let me know what I owe ya"
lol dont you just love the guy that doesnt have enough time to use the
switches in a batch file?
The nerve of some people...
------
mzslater
When we started Webvanta (a hosted CMS), we spent quite a bit of time talking
with small business owners, understanding their web needs, and trying to
figure out if we could provide them with a "do it yourself" solution.
Our conclusion was that, for the vast majority of small business people, there
is no such thing as a do-it-yourself solution that is going to yield a quality
site. They need help with their writing, marketing strategy, and approach,
even if all the technical issues go away. And most of them need help with
email marketing, social media, and so forth.
For the $200 customer, they're just going to have to figure it out on their
own, using something like Wix, or Weebly, or -- if they have a little budget
-- SquareSpace, GoDaddy Website Tonight, or Intuit Sites, or something like
that.
For anyone who wants a quality site, and wants to have an effective Internet
marketing strategy, they should hire someone to help them. That someone
typically goes by the name "web designer", but a good one is as much a
marketing consultant as a designer.
Typically, this is going to cost at least 10 times the $200 figure, but that's
life. Most business people undervalue design and undervalue the web, and
that's what needs to change if they are going to use it effectively.
So with the Webvanta hosted CMS (www.webvanta.com), we have focused on serving
professional web designers, to give them a powerful tool they can use to
deliver great sites to their clients. We did not attempt to make it easy for a
business owner to create their own site; instead, we made it easy for a
designer to create a great site, and for the business owner to then be able to
add content and maintain the site.
------
Mamady
Every project has overheads, and when you squeeze the budget very low, the
overheads can outweigh the budget itself.
Websites require a lot of communication as overhead - and cheap labor will
only get you so far.
Considering the ONLY value proposition you will be providing is 'price', its a
difficult business model. Any business with extremely tight margins and price
as their only competitive point is an uphill battle.
Keep in mind the service you will be providing will generally be poor -
because your price is low, you need to keep customer service time to a minimum
- leading to a poor service.
Its better to reject these clients, rather than try to adopt them.
------
Yaa101
The hosted market is not failing, it's just that these socalled technical
inept people have an entitlement problem.
The options in our society are very easy, either one does it him/her self or
one pays another person a fair fee.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Gmail Denial of Service Attack - deckar01
https://imgur.com/ksYbkEv
======
sova
Interesting... just overloading their inbox with new gmail account requests /
notifications ?
~~~
deckar01
Yep. Any amount of emails over 60 per minute shuts off the person's inbox.
This limit is calculated before applying any filters, so obvious junk still
trips the limit.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
DogeOS – Very Smart – Many Zones - snw
http://liyu1981.github.io/DogeOS/
======
snw
In spite of the silly name, it has some fantastic tech from SmartOS (ZFS,
Zones + KVM, nice tools to manage all that) and is great to use as a cloud
hypervisor. Project-FIFO provides a management portal on top of that, so
bundling both in a easy to use system makes a lot of sense.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Flood of Oil Is Coming, Complicating Efforts to Fight Global Warming - pseudolus
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/03/business/energy-environment/oil-supply.html
======
mxschumacher
Demand for oil&gas will continue to grow for a long time due to:
\- SUV/pick-up boom (America's best-selling car in 2018 is the F150 series!)
and more cars + trucks in countries like Brazil, India, China, Indonesia
\- crazy growth in air travel (look at order numbers of Airbus, see how many
airports are under construction, see miles traveled via plane)
\- simultaneous shift away from coal+ nuclear, giving a huge boost to natural
gas in the long term (LNG build-out is only now beginning)
\- the world getting richer (more and more humans are living like Westerners).
We're on a path towards $100tn/y world GDP and 10bn humans.
I provide more detail + resources on my blog:
[https://mxschumacher.xyz/post/long_oil_and_gas/](https://mxschumacher.xyz/post/long_oil_and_gas/)
~~~
irrational
Why are pick-ups so popular? I can understand if you are a construction
worker, farmer, etc. that actually needs a pickup truck; but why are they so
popular for other people? The vast majority of pickup trucks I see have beds
that are so clean that it is obvious that has never been used to haul even one
bag of cement or load of dirt.
~~~
ChuckMcM
I expect part of the reason is utility vs cost of ownership. You can commute
in a pickup but you can't move an apartment in a Prius (well not in one trip
:-).
If you look at the marginal cost of a second vehicle[1] it is quite high. Thus
you may be limited to owning exactly one vehicle, and that vehicle is going to
consume a chunk of your income (insurance/gas/maintenance). In that scenario
the most financially prudent choice can seem to be a truck over another
choice. Towing things is another aspect, if you vacation a lot by camping
rather than staying in hotels it costs less per day to camp/hike then to spend
it at a resort somewhere. Or boating/fishing, same calculus.
[1] Things like parking, insurance, inspection/license fees, maintenance all
add up. And the opportunity cost of that capital tied up in a car loan vs
doing something else.
~~~
irrational
But, it's like $50 or less a day to rent a huge uhaul truck. And an SUV can
easily haul a boat or other toys, plus keep gear covered and provide seating
for more people. If you really need to haul something that wont fit in the
back of the suv, you can always rent a uhaul trailer for about $20/day. Heck,
you can rent a large flat bed truck from home depot for about $20 for a few
hours that can probably haul more than an F-150.
~~~
noobiemcfoob
Perception is important. A lot of these decisions aren't made by people who
sat down and wrote down the numbers to arrive at the rational choice. But if I
_think_ I have utility for a pick up often because I like to _think_ I'm that
rugged, diy type of person, I'll _think_ it's rational to own a pickup and
assume the relative prices get massaged away.
/I drove a pick-up for a number of years for this reason until hybrid
crossovers became viable.
------
corodra
I have a hard time taking this article too seriously.
>not coming from the usual producers, but from Brazil, Canada, Norway and
Guyana — countries that are either not known for oil or whose production has
been lackluster in recent years.
Canada ranks 5 in oil exports, Norway 13, Brazil 21. Sure, Guyana belongs in
that sentence. But... uh, okay? Rank 5 is "not usual"?
Next part, wtf do you expect? Oil companies are going to bull rush to increase
their cash supply in the coming years due to gas car bans coming in the next
decades along with the push for renewable energy. Did people actually think
these multi billion dollar companies are going to just say, "Oh well, we had a
good run. We should take ourselves out to pasture now"?
>Years of moderate gasoline prices have already increased the popularity of
bigger cars and sports utility vehicles in the United States
I'm pretty sure that "demand" is a drop in the bucket to the past decade of
Chinese demand that's been increasing.
Fun point I really, really like: "The added production in Norway comes despite
the country’s embrace of the 2016 Paris climate agreement, which committed
nations to cut greenhouse-gas emissions."
Hmmm, so Norway taxes the shit out of oil(which they should, don't pretend I'm
for oil). What does that mean? Oh, let's see, 2018 oil tax rev was NOK 155
billion (17b USD), 2019 is estimated NOK 176 billion (19b USD). I have a truly
difficult time believing that the government will go, "No, we don't want that
money! Away with thee!" Especially in a country of 5.3million. That splits to
services among their citizens pretty well. Enough that if oil disappeared,
there are public services that are going to get cut back pretty badly.
Uh huh. At a 1.2 trillion NOK operating budget (131b USD), it'll hurt to lose,
what is that... oil taxes makes 12% of the gov's income? I'm trying to figure
out when the memo came out where we all started to believe political rhetoric.
Don't think for a second I'm "for oil". But I'm a realist. A lot more needs to
happen to end oil's stranglehold. Not drum circles, UN circle jerks climate
summits with teenagers crying nor bullshit "plant trees" PR stunts(past tree
planting stunts have real piss poor success rates of the trees surviving after
a year. Single digit percentages. And no one tries to learn from the past
ones.)
~~~
eloff
Also contributing probably is the rising risk that if you don't pump that oil
as fast as possible and sell it now, you might never be able to sell it. This
is weighing on the Saudi Aramco IPO. Although probably not as much as the
general opaque and untrustworthy reports from the Saudis as to how much oil
they have left.
We used to worry about peak oil, where a supply crunch would cause the price
to skyrocket. Now it's clear it will end in a whimper with demand just
trailing off until only the very cheapest producers are still in the market.
Too bad Canada, Brazil.
It's a good thing to be clear, and can't happen fast enough.
~~~
nradov
The notion of crude oil becoming a stranded asset seems a little silly. It
will be many decades before the transportation infrastructure transitions off
fossil fuels. And even then there will be demand for oil as a feed stock for
chemical manufacturing (plastics, fertilizers, etc). (I'm not claiming that
this is a good thing, it's just the economic reality.)
~~~
corodra
I can't remember where I saw the numbers and I'm pretty sure I'm off a bit.
But I think only half of all crude oil gets distilled into "fuel". The rest
ends up as plastics and other chemicals, as you mention. I just remember it's
a very significant of non-fuel oil use is out there. A quick google search, I
can't find the chart I saw. Maybe someone can chime in better on that?
Edit: Listen to Retric's comment below, not me on my stats
~~~
Retric
Worldwide, only 1/4 of oil is used for industry.
46% of oil is turned into gas. However, include diesel, aviation, plus boat
fuels and transportation adds up to 69% of oil used.
Home heating is 3%, and electricity is 1%.
------
bluedevil2k
I think it's naive to think that humans will leave any oil in the ground
despite climate change and any changes we enact to counteract it. We should
work from an assumption that all the oil in the ground is going to be dug up
and burned. It's too much money for some of these countries to ignore - the
article mentions Guyana, a poor country that now has a way to print money. It
also mentiones Venezuela, the country with the most oil reserves and the
country's desperate need for cash.
~~~
neuronic
The only solution would be to drastically reduce the value of oil and
therefore make it uneconomic to dig it up. The easy-access oil is decreasing
and extraction becomes more expensive.
~~~
mr__y
There is an "easy" solution to this problem - introduce a new (preferably
renewable) energy source that is an order of magnitude cheaper than oil.
~~~
rcMgD2BwE72F
It already exists in the form of Solar/Wind + batteries + EV.
Also, as price decrease for this combo, tax fossil fuels for all the damages
caused to the environment (taxes to be used to help people switch to renewable
energy, and for this transition only otherwise they won't support that tax).
~~~
cartoonworld
There another angle to this--USA provides vast sums of other monetary aid to
oil production.
Since it has been a (or perhaps _the_ ) strategic commodity, nationally, since
WWI our foreign policy is in part directed at those supplies. We expend much
military might in the effort to acquire and maintain the alliances and
security of the transportation and production of the stuff.
A lot of the geopolitical game in the middle east is about the oil. Not "We're
gonna take over your country and take it it!" exactly, but the Suez Canal, the
Straits of Hormuz, international shipping lanes, and current geopolitical need
for a gas pipeline to supply natural gas to Europe drives a lot of jockeying,
international conflict, and of course, US strategic military bases, of which
there are many.
Also I read in the news that some government official put boots are on the
ground to protect a Saudi oil field (?...!)
So my response to your comment is: "Yes!" however, there will be a long
political battle with an absurdly well funded opposition for it.
~~~
shantly
Hm. That actually raises a good point—how long until _militaries_ can operate
without gasoline and diesel? Or even significantly reduce their use? Hard to
imagine anything competing with petroleum there in the mid-term future, which
mean subsidized production will continue to be necessary to any state that
wants to be able to self-sufficiently field an army worth having at all.
I mean I guess there's ethanol from plants. Maybe all that corn subsidy stuff
actually makes sense in a long-term strategic sense, then. Though you can ramp
that up inside a year if you need to and probably much faster by rationing
food & feed use of existing corn to repurpose most of it for fuel, so that's
probably not what they had in mind and it _is_ just a form of corruption.
Crazy, though, if arable land becomes directly correlated to ability to
support armored divisions.
~~~
pm90
Military consumption _pales_ in comparison to civilian consumption though. I
can see most large armed forces being OK with using whatever Oil and Gas is
produced domestically. Smaller nations without access to oil have a problem,
but they probably have smaller armed forces too.
------
rossdavidh
So, interesting and all, but not even mentioning what is happening to coal the
last few years seems like an odd omission. Coal is essentially disappearing
from the world's energy mix. As big as coal was, it takes a while to go away
completely, but the trend does not seem to be slowing down. By some estimates,
there are a lot of cases now where it is more expensive to keep running an
existing coal-fired power plant, than to replace it with solar or wind.
So, at least a substantial fraction of this oil is replacing coal, which
doesn't mean it's all ok for the climate change issue, but it seems like an
important point to be just leaving out of the story entirely.
~~~
WhompingWindows
Coal is down-trending in the USA, but it still makes up 30% of the electricity
in the USA. In other countries, especially China and India, coal is expected
to be burned in massive quantities for the next couple of decades. Granted,
they use much more efficient coal than the US does, but let's not act like
coal is disappearing overnight. It's been over 30% of the mix for decades and
it will continue to be so, in a global scale, for at least a decade.
~~~
rossdavidh
Well, what I'm reading is that coal is still increasing in China in absolute
terms, but declining as a percentage of the mix. If oil drops in price in the
way the article is suggesting, I would have to think that it would displace a
good chunk of that? At the very least, if there's some reason we think it
would not, the article should have explained why that is.
------
nabla9
This is incredibly good news for the developing world in the short- and medium
term, but really bad news for the long term. Cheap energy boosts economic
growth and well-being. Oil finds its comparative advantage relative to cheap
solar.
Globally liquid fuel production and consumption just goes up year after year
[https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/steo/images/Fig6.png](https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/steo/images/Fig6.png)
Reduced use of hydrocarbons in the west is nice but it's not going to offset
the demand in the developed world. The growth will slow down and stop in
decade or two.
~~~
jdjdjjsjs
The idea that the developing world will benefit from cheap oil is ridiculous.
The developing world is the one suffering from the impacts of global warming.
Several countries in Africa are suffering from wars worsened by climate change
driven migrations. Countries like India have a mix of cities running out of
water, cities flooded by water and cities drowning in pollution which is
almost certainly gonna erase years of people's lives eliminating any
improvements caused by better medicine.
Cheap oil, or expensive oil, are both bad for developing countries. It's
literally not possible to give the hundreds of millions of people in
developing countries a better future with fossil fuel driven growth.
All our thinking and planning has to start from that basic fact.
~~~
leftyted
The idea that people in the developing world won't benefit from fossil fuels
is a horrible lie. All of the claims you made (regarding flooding, wars, etc)
are unfalsifiable, two-points-make-a-line gibberish.
Carbon emissions may very well be a valid concern, but that concern is not
_obviously more valid_ than people dying of privation, a condition that _we
know for sure_ is solved by economic development (which, to date, requires
fossil fuels).
The idea of someone typing on some website about how people in the developing
world shouldn't burn fossil fuels to lift themselves out of poverty is
appalling. "How dare you" \-- or something.
~~~
guelo
Maybe it's appalling but it is true. The developing world cannot become as
rich as the developed world or everything collapses. The developed world needs
to become poorer.
~~~
leftyted
Time will tell. Either way, I'm fairly tired of interacting with people who
seeem to think they have exclusive access to a mainline from the future.
------
Ancalagon
I feel like there is literally no way for the average person to win this
fight. I can't even avoid plastic and oil use in my day-to-day life because I
live too far from the only farmers market in town, because its too expensive
to live any closer. The only way I can see that I could "win" is by buying a
large plot of land and essentially returning to living an 1800s style
agricultural lifestyle, but even that would probably be too difficult because
of the startup costs to buy the land, house, and equipment. I also don't feel
that many politicians understand and are popular enough to combat these
issues, what else are we supposed to do?
~~~
robocat
The amount of CO₂ we produce is correlated with our spending (embedded
energy), and our spending is usually related to our income.
If you have a good income, you likely produce a lot of CO₂, but you can also
afford to spend some time and money on offsetting activities.
For example, buy a plot of uneconomical farmland and plant good CO₂ absorbers,
maybe good nursery trees so you can return land to a more native state.
There's heaps of ways to do it, but check you are not being greenwashed.
You do need to do some research: building an energy efficient home, or buying
a Tesla feels good but might not actually be effective (and could easily be
net producer of CO₂ depending on other factors).
When I spend money, I figure 25% is embedded energy (e.g. employees in chain
go on overseas holiday). E.g. I guess $8 spent uses a litre of petrochemicals.
Edit: if anyone has good pointers to information about embedded energy per
dollar, I am interested. The above comment is mostly from my own thought
experiments.
~~~
aaronblohowiak
Do you have a source for tesla being a net producer of CO2? Your assertion
goes against my understanding that even when powered by coal plants, it is
less CO2 per mile and over lifetime of vehicle as well.
~~~
robocat
Sorry, I probably shouldn't have mentioned Tesla since it tends to provoke
needless reaction.
However:
1\. A geeky acquantance bought a Tesla X in New Zealand. I think it cost
$200000. To me, that price implies a large amount of embedded energy. He felt
he was helping the world, but by my calculations it wasn't.
2\. In New Zealand a large amount of our power comes from hydroelectricity, so
electric car owners are often smug. But every marginal _extra_ kWh consumed
comes from gas, so electric cars here indirectly use hydrocarbons (that's
because virtually 100% of our hydro is already allocated). There are arguments
about efficiency, but those arguments are hollow for expensive cars, or for
low kilometres.
3\. The electric car industry would have happened even without Tesla. They
rightly claim some speedup of the market, which implies some gains (if we are
careful to ensure electric cars don't cause more CO₂ than other transport
options through other side effects). I don't see buyers being careful about
finding real facts, and sellers don't really care to give them, so it is hard
to know where the truth lies.
4\. We import a lot of used cars from Japan, something like a second-hand
Prius will usually be far better for the environment for most people than a
Tesla IMHO. Obviously non-car choices, or to offset the CO₂ might be better
still.
~~~
Ancalagon
I also want to point out a lot of CO2 comes from the manufacturing process as
well, and buying a lightly used vehicle that is a hybrid or runs on gas might
actually be better than buying a new car.
------
AtlasBarfed
Carbon tax Carbon tax Carbon tax
It sucks that as BEVs chase ICEs and become more prevalent that will drop
demand of oil and therefore oil will get cheaper.
I only hope that the higher extraction costs of current reserves make a floor
for gasoline that supply/demand curves can't go under fundamentally, and that
BEVs can beat that.
But a goddamn rational, common sense carbon tax would fix a whole lot of
things that are wrong with the world.
~~~
cr0sh
> It sucks that as BEVs chase ICEs and become more prevalent that will drop
> demand of oil and therefore oil will get cheaper.
Well - that's kinda good news (if it works that way) for me and my Jeep...
I'd love for there to be a real practical BEV Jeep (or similar off-road
vehicle) - but the truth is, the battery tech just isn't there yet.
There is no way to fit a battery pack into a vehicle the size of my 2004 TJ
(which is a classic 2-door style Jeep - smaller than the 4-door JK and JL
models most people have bought since), while still allowing for a 100+ mile
off-road trip.
One relatively recent attempt (which was a 3rd party conversion of a JK - and
far, far outside my budget) only got 70 miles or so on a charge - and had to
be trailered out to the trail at that.
I certainly hope that the technology gets there, though - the upsides of
electric motors for off-roading would be phenomenal. But until it can take me
to the trail, do the trail, then get back to pavement on a single "fill-up" \-
it will continue to be a non-starter for me and others. Ideally, current top-
of-line BEV vehicles would need to double (or maybe triple) their range to be
able to apply that to off-roading and gain something close to ICE.
Either that, or some way to carry a small and fast way to recharge the battery
while on the trail. With currently off-road vehicles, you can carry cans of
gasoline with you easily for such needs. That's just not possible (currently)
with a BEV type of system.
~~~
AtlasBarfed
100 miles is very doable with current BEV tech. A skateboard design will drop
the center of gravity, can be armored better than most other designs.
Battery tech will get there. Electric motors will deliver more torque and
independent torque vectoring will open up even more terrain to ruin.
Range can probably be done with a range extending generator, and PVs on the
roof can charge while you camp.
But I'm not going to shed tears that BEVs don't fit the 200 mile offroad romp
use case. BEVs won't come to Jeep segments until some other commercial
application does it. Jeep buyers generally don't care about the environment
when it comes down to it, they've been buying horribly inefficient dinosaur
burners for decades and really aren't any different than Hummer buyers.
------
WhompingWindows
The US had the single largest increases in crude oil and LNG production in
history in previous years. These other smaller producers are a drop in the
bucket compared to the massive increases seen in the USA. These two stark
facts may help explain why US politicians are reticent to back climate science
or carbon taxation...why would they back something to curtail resource
extraction that's making a KILLING in their red states? Especially when they
get a tidy % of that killing in campaign donations and PAC-support.
If we think of climate denial and obstructionism through this lens, it makes
the GOP a lot easier to comprehend.
~~~
frogpelt
I think you are off here. California, Colorado and New Mexico are all in the
top ten of oil production.
Yes, some states are "red" and they tend to like their fossil fuels. But they
may be "red" in part because of their oil production, not the other way
around.
Also, many traditional "red" states like Texas, Arizona, Georgia, North
Carolina, Iowa, Indiana, Oklahoma, Florida, North and South Dakota have shown
to be very interested in increasing wind[1] and solar[2] energy capacities.
Sources:
[1]: [https://www.power-technology.com/features/us-wind-energy-
by-...](https://www.power-technology.com/features/us-wind-energy-by-state/)
[2]: [https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/19/the-us-states-leading-the-
wa...](https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/19/the-us-states-leading-the-way-in-
solar.html)
------
rmrfrmrf
I mean, hopefully it's common knowledge now that it's impossible to combat
climate change by working within markets.
~~~
joshypants
It hasn't worked for the past 30 years. But any minute now it'll kick in, just
hold your breath and wait.
------
AnthonyMouse
It's not surprising that oil producers see the writing on the wall. If they
don't sell their reserves now, they'll either get a lower prices for them
later (because of lower demand as people switch to electric vehicles etc.), or
won't be able to sell them as a result of future legislation.
But making the price low now enables something they might not like -- it makes
it cheaper to enact a carbon tax, because consumers won't feel it as much.
Especially if you use it to fund a dividend, you can then make the tax (and
corresponding dividend) quite large, and not get many complaints because
people are getting back more than increase in fuel cost over what they're
accustomed to paying.
If gas drops to $2/gallon when people are used to $3, raising it to $4 with a
tax but then giving everyone the $2 back makes people happy, because now they
have an extra $1 at the expense of the oil companies. And an extra $2 if they
buy an electric car.
------
buboard
Hmm .. maybe don't buy into that SaudiAramco IPO
~~~
rcMgD2BwE72F
Expect a lot of news articles to be published explaining that oil remains the
future despite the urgent need to get rid of it
1) The world's biggest banks will do their best to find gullible buyers of
SaudiAramco' fees (taking nice fees in the process)
2) the commercial media in every industry (financial or not) knows that a lot
of money will be distributed to anyone who promote such stories (through ads,
exclusive content, or else)
3) that's enough to have thousands of writers pumping articles depicting oil
as a necessity / necessary evil, while owners of that oil are just trying to
dump it as it becomes a thing of the past.
------
torpfactory
"I hope that humanity will be able to free itself from its addiction of fossil
fuels (arguably it is the primary reason for violent conflict in the last 30
years and the driving force behind climate change), but my bet is that things
will get worse for a lot longer before we even reach the inflection point of
“peak oil”.
Change must happen. Change will happen. I don’t think the oil and gas industry
is anywhere near to disappearing. Given the current valuation of many
integrated oil majors, the favorable growth and interest rate environment, I
believe that it is a good time to invest in oil companies."
I love the cynicism of this perspective: We are well aware the world will burn
because of this technology, but hey, you can make a buck now, so keep
perpetuating the status quo. These kind of opinions are so frustrating.
~~~
bilbo0s
What was eye opening to me is that, if the GP is to be believed, is that
people keep buying F150s?
Clearly, not everyone believes in the idea of climate change. (In fact, if
that factoid is correct, a plurality of automobile consumers don't? That's a
"wow" moment for me.)
~~~
cr0sh
Something to keep in mind also is that today's F150 is not the same as
"yesterday's" F150.
Today's F150 is made out of mostly aluminum - not steel.
Today's F150 only comes in 4 and 6 cylinder models. 8 cylinder was dropped,
and I think the smaller engines are turbocharged to make up for the difference
(what if anything this does for emissions or fuel usage, I am not certain).
There are probably more than a few other differences as well that might make
the vehicles objectively better than their forebears.
That isn't to say they are better than other options, just that they are
possibly and likely better than what they used to be - but are still
frequently used as "scare fodder" for a public who doesn't generally follow or
understand how the vehicle has changed.
~~~
rootusrootus
> 8 cylinder was dropped
That's incorrect, you can definitely still spec it with a 5.0L V8. The twin
turbo V6 is the range topping engine, however. And it isn't especially fuel
efficient unless you never ask it to do anything hard. We have an F150 with
the ecoboost 3.5L and it's fantastic when towing our RV, but it gets 10 mpg
while doing so.
In the end you can't really get around physics. Heavy pickup, takes a lot of
fuel to make it move, even if you try to reduce pumping losses with smaller
engines.
------
algaeontoast
I still genuinely don't understand the elitist and patronizing view that
developing and/or developed countries should just stop traveling by air or
travel significantly less by air?
In reality, even if all the rich people stopped flying on planes, plenty of
other people would just keep doing it. I don't think poor people really care
too much about being guilted by rich people, led alone being told someone else
knows better than them how they should spend their hard earned money / live
their lives.
------
olivermarks
It's hard to know what to believe anymore. There were endless articles about
'peak oil' a few years ago.
~~~
hinkley
We had articles about this in the 80's too.
What happened then? Better mapping tools to identify oil-bearing structures,
and better catalysts to crack oil. Those catalysts have been worked on since
then and they're many times bigger now (I can't recall why this matters).
At some point we developed horizontal drilling. All these things were too
expensive when oil was cheaper. What other processes are waiting in the wings?
~~~
aidenn0
Another thing that happened is that growth of oil usage declined. From 1950 to
1968, worldwide oil usage quadrupled; that's an annual growth rate of about
3.9%. In the past 50 years it's doubled, that's an annual growth rate of about
1.4%. If usage had continued growing at the 4% rate, we would have already
exhausted today's P1 reserves.
By the 80s it was clear that oil prices were back on the decline, so many
thought demand might return to the earlier growth rate (making the 70s crisis
a "hiccup" rather than having a permanent affect).
------
pfortuny
Funny how at the same time the Norwegian Government Fund is divesting from oil
and gas exploration[1].
[1][https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/08/norways-1tn-
we...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/08/norways-1tn-wealth-fund-
to-divest-from-oil-and-gas-exploration)
~~~
hodder
Diversification.
------
gadders
Remember when everyone was talking about peak oil?
[https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaellynch/2018/06/29/what-
ev...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaellynch/2018/06/29/what-ever-
happened-to-peak-oil/#76f1e839731a)
~~~
swebs
Yes, and as the article says, we've past that point in the mid 2000's, which
is why companies have resorted to fracking.
~~~
gadders
If more oil is being found and extracted than before, then we haven't reached
peak oil. Peak oil never referred to one extraction method.
------
exabrial
[https://archive.ph/MIKOH](https://archive.ph/MIKOH)
------
ThomPete
Its important to realise that oil is not just for energy but for the 95% of
products, machinery and materials that make modern life possible. Roughly 50%
is for other things than energy and without oil most of us would either not
live today And live much poorer lives.
------
mikelyons
Whenever we grow, the universe will test us. This is an example of temptation,
will we resist? Will we find another way? Or will we double down on our
biggest existential threat.
Am I looking at this the wrong way? Help me to understand a more reasonable
way to look at it.
------
mlinksva
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Innovation_and_Carbon_D...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Innovation_and_Carbon_Dividend_Act_of_2019)
------
jeffdavis
Can someone comment on:
[http://projectvesta.org](http://projectvesta.org)
And it's viability? It seems to offer a way to scale carbon sequestration in
step with fossil fuel extraction.
------
ilaksh
Oh no! Demand for oil is going down and cutting into profits! Better start a
major war!
------
ZeroGravitas
One neat solution is to have a variable gas tax which rises and falls in near
opposite to the price swings, but also slowly grows over time to account for
carbon and pollution costs. This gives businesses and consumers an easy way to
plan future costs.
~~~
fyfy18
Isn't that pretty much what is happening with fuel taxes in Europe? Even
though the price of oil is around half what it was a decade ago, fuel prices
are still pretty much the same.
[https://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/indicators/fuel-
pric...](https://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/indicators/fuel-prices-and-
taxes/assessment-2)
(I wonder if diesel taxes are going to be brought inline with petrol taxes
after dieselgate has shown diesel is worse for the environment)
------
LatteLazy
Opec is a price fixing association of the most of the world's worst countries.
From funding terror to obscene inequality to political and religious
oppression. But if it weren't for them, we'd be in a much worse position on
climate change...
~~~
selectodude
OPEC hasn’t had the power to fix prices in probably a decade now. Saudi Arabia
barely complies and there’s way too much oil coming out of North America for
them to do a whole lot.
------
indue
I wouldn't call a 2.5% increase over 2 years a flood.
------
The_rationalist
Meanwhile, mad men fight nuclear because of their own brain bugs.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Nokia's flexible user interface prototype demo (in Gadgets) - adityar
http://www.mesmira.com/post/nokia-s-flexible-user-interface-prototype-demo
======
Juha
This looks interesting, something innovative from Nokia. That device didn't
look that usable, but it does open many possibilities for new features for
future phones.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Three New Longevity Startups - apsec112
https://www.leafscience.org/three-groundbreaking-longevity-startups/
======
BiochemOki
Hi, I'm co-founder of Underdog and the scientist who invented the drugs we are
developing. Cool that this community has taken an interest. I agree with a lot
of the insightful comments here. If you're interested in diving deeper into
the toxic cholesterol that we're targeting I've just published a review
article all about its biology and all the aspects of aging and disease that
it's involved in:
[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S221323171...](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2213231719311759)
To touch on a couple of the other points that have been raised here, no our
drugs aren't enzymes. We at SENS were working on an enzymatic approach for
many years. There is still potential to engineering enzymes for this, but I
designed our cyclodextrins to be a faster/cheaper/easier path to the clinic.
Well, not that much cheaper. It's still very expensive. And yes, we are well
aware of the hearing loss issue. It's avoidable, we believe we understand what
caused it, and we're engineering around it. We'll be able to test whether we
are successfully avoiding hearing loss in a very sensitive system in the next
9 months.
How long will we last? 16 more months with our current funding and burn rate.
By then we need to have moved into series A so if anyone has any pharma VC
contacts I'm definitely looking for warm intros :)
~~~
DrAwdeOccarim
What is your opinion of using a monoclonal antibody against 7KC instead of
cyclodextrin since mAbs are very well understood from a regulatory and PK/PD
point of view. In your review I only see that you discuss 7KC antibodies as a
method of screening for people who could benefit from your therapeutic idea.
~~~
BiochemOki
Great question. Two problems with making a therapeutic antibody against seven
KC. One is that we are not sure how good the seven KC antibodies are yet. We
are working on this. The problem there is that 7KC only differs from
cholesterol by one atom. The other problem is that the 7KC that we are worried
about is inside of cells, so our drug is designed to mechanically pull the
seven KC out, which antibodies can't really do. Also, cyclodextrins are very
well accepted by regulators, it's just that they are usually used as
excipients rather than as Active Pharmaceutical Ingredients (APIs). There are
two examples of cyclodextrin APIs already, however, one approved and one in
late stage clinical trials.
~~~
DrAwdeOccarim
Cool, thanks for the reply. Are the approved use parenteral? Have you
considered aptamers?
~~~
BiochemOki
Yes, we are looking at IV, as others have done already clinically. We aren't
looking at aptamers or other clever ways of binding small toxic biomolecules.
I hope that other groups are!
~~~
DrAwdeOccarim
This is a pretty interesting paper:
[https://stm.sciencemag.org/content/8/333/333ra50](https://stm.sciencemag.org/content/8/333/333ra50)
Is there a chance that you are developing CD that target 7KC but at the end of
the day, it dissolved chol-containing plaques inherently and that's where
you'll derive the benefit from?
------
wwwtyro
More on Underdog Pharma: [https://www.fightaging.org/archives/2019/11/an-
interview-wit...](https://www.fightaging.org/archives/2019/11/an-interview-
with-matthew-oconnor-as-underdog-pharmaceuticals-secures-seed-funding/)
"We've taken a well-known and extremely safe compound, and have created novel
derivatives that can specifically target the toxic biomolecule that drives the
development of atherosclerosis, the cause of most heart attacks and strokes."
I'm excited for this one. Seems like a reasonable possibility for success
addressing a huge killer.
~~~
assadk
> The company is focused on a class of molecule known cyclodextrins, and have
> candidates capable of efficiently binding and sequestering
> 7-ketocholesterol. This form of oxidized cholesterol is of great importance
> to the progression of atherosclerosis, and possibly other age-related
> conditions as well.
The thing is cyclodextrins have been linked to causing deafness, in as little
as a week. As per
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5676048/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5676048/)
and [https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/deaf-or-death-in-drug-
trial...](https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/deaf-or-death-in-drug-trial-
parents-weigh-life-vs-hearing-loss-1425267002)
Heart disease or hearing – tough trade-offs. Here’s to hoping that they’ve
engineered a novel compound without any of the downsides.
------
TheUndead96
I think longevity is vastly underestimated. Besides the natural innate desire
to live longer, every extra year of healthspan is an opportunity to reap
benefits on long term investment in friends, family and financial instruments.
Knowing that you may live to 150 changes how you might approach investing and
spending your time in money and skills development. People with the
conscientiousness and forethought to apply themselves to important but not
urgent tasks might experience compound interest the likes of which we have
never seen before. Imagine if Warren Buffet was only half way through his
healthspan.
~~~
speedplane
> I think longevity is vastly underestimated.
Many people would give up their entire life fortune, any inheritance to their
children, just to live for a few more years. People have been killing and
dying searching for the fountain of youth for centuries.
Everyone is going to die eventually, yet the extremes people go to extend life
is unlike any normal supply and demand curve.
I'm not sure there's anything more overestimated and over-hyped than
longevity.
~~~
luspr
There is not enough funding or investment in longevity to consider it over-
hyped. Compare it to, say, AI and VR. Or even meat substitutes.
~~~
speedplane
> There is not enough funding or investment in longevity to consider it over-
> hyped. Compare it to, say, AI and VR. Or even meat substitutes.
You're very much mistaken.
The National Institute of Health gets $31B of government funds every year for
research. The NSF gets $8B, NASA gets $20B, and DARPA gets around $3B. So
healthcare research gets roughly 50% of the entire U.S. public research
budget, and that's not including private investment.
It's difficult to pull accurate numbers, but meat substitutes, VR, and even
super-hot AI get far less every year, it's nowhere near healthcare research.
Extending life has been a priority of the US government for many years,
largely because it's politically popular. Everyone rich or poor wants to live
longer.
~~~
hobofan
That is "traditonal" healthcare, where the target age is 70-80ish, with
basically no means to get past that.
This is very different from what longevity research (like in the article) is
tackling, and almost non of that money (public or private) is invested there.
~~~
speedplane
> That is "traditonal" healthcare, where the target age is 70-80ish, with
> basically no means to get past that. This is very different from what
> longevity research (like in the article) is tackling...
If you're searching for a cure for cancer, heart failure, or any of fatal
health ailment, you are by definition trying to extend people's lives. The
entire purpose of healthcare is to extend both the length and quality of
people's lives.
------
jv22222
Reading this article makes me very glad that I've been donating to SENS for
some time now. They are doing awesome work:
[https://www.sens.org/get-involved/donate/](https://www.sens.org/get-
involved/donate/)
------
khaledkteily
I learned a lot through this, thank you for sharing.
I run a sperm freezing company (YC S19) incubated at Harvard and we've always
thought about freezing sperm as an extremely logical pairing with any life
extension technology; sperm can be frozen indefinitely with no loss in quality
(as far as we know), you could have 30-year old sperm frozen for us when
you're 130.
Since sperm develops mutations over time (~1 every 8 months) and DNA
fragmentation is associated with all manner of congenital conditions like
autism, younger sperm is generally speaking healthier.
Just wanted to share since it's something we talk about internally quite a
bit. What does it mean to live forever if you lose all your family members
along the way? How will society change to accommodate?
------
tempsy
Longevity is a interesting one because there are so many studies out there
that have looked into calorie restriction as having a large positive influence
on healthy aging...
------
deegles
At what age would these treatments be applied? How often?
~~~
rantwasp
this is mostly research. there are a lot of things you can do to slow down
aging right now - almost orthogonal to your age: sleep 7+ hours per night, hit
the gym (mix of cardio+strength), eat high quality food - the less processed
the better - also try to eat a plant based diet, reduce the level of stress in
your life, properly hydrate yourself, hang out with people you like, get a
pet, get a side project that is a work of love, learn something every day,
read books, reduce your social media (and media in general) consumption.
~~~
nostromo
> eat a plant based diet
I agree with everything else you've said, but the jury is definitely out on
this one.
~~~
chrisco255
The current life expectancy for Iceland in 2020 is 83.07 years, a 0.18%
increase from 2019. [1]
Life expectancy for Hong Kong is 84.7 years. [2]
Based on a comparison of 158 countries in 2013, Maldives ranked the highest in
fish consumption per capita with 166 kg followed by Iceland and Hong Kong [3]
Hong Kong also beats most countries in beef consumption, out-eating Americans
by nearly 50% per capita. [4]
So of the countries in the top 10 for life expectancy, we see a lot of meat in
the diet. India has the most vegetarians of any country (at 38%). And their
life expectancy ranks 133rd at 69.4 years.
[1] [https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/ISL/iceland/life-
expec...](https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/ISL/iceland/life-expectancy)
[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expe...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy)
[3] [https://www.helgilibrary.com/indicators/fish-consumption-
per...](https://www.helgilibrary.com/indicators/fish-consumption-per-capita/)
[4] [https://beef2live.com/story-world-beef-consumption-per-
capit...](https://beef2live.com/story-world-beef-consumption-per-capita-
ranking-countries-0-111634)
~~~
Rotten194
Some big confounding factors there. Hong Kong and Iceland are also very
wealthy compared to India.
~~~
scarejunba
There is a fortunate coincidence here. There are wealthy vegetarian castes in
India, and India tracks demographics by caste, so it's likely that the data is
out there for us to figure this part out.
An alternative is to do something like follow second-generation Western people
of Indian origin. I know at least one study of Tuberculosis in the UK tested
the effect of vegetarianism there and used the British Asian sub-population to
do so, so there's probably some info there too.
I don't know of any other large vegetarian groups.
------
AnimalMuppet
Wonder how long they'll last...
~~~
rantwasp
the whole point of these spin-offs is that the majority of them will not
survive. there are a lot of ideas around aging and it’s really easy to get
carried away to the point we throw everything against a wall and see what
sticks.
------
scandox
I'm interested if there is much anti-longevity sentiment here. I admit I'm
very much against further moves to artificially increase human lifespan.
Am I quite alone in this?
~~~
TeMPOraL
You're definitely not alone - though I disagree with your view, I've been in
enough back-and-forths about it on HN to know that plenty of thoughtful people
here are against life extension, for various reasons (that can't all be just
reduced to Stockholm syndrome).
For instance, there's worry that life extension will vastly worsen economic
inequality. Another problem is that a lot systems in society (e.g. retirement,
insurance) is implicitly based on current average lifespan, and a sudden
extension of it could cause such shockwaves in the economy that it would
create more suffering than it would save.
I mention these two because I acknowledge them as real risks, but despite
them, I'm 100% in support of life extension. I sincerely hope that one day
humans will be able to extends life indefinitely, while retaining full
capacity (i.e. no everlasting life in a body of a 90-years-old).
~~~
scandox
Interesting. I'm also interested in how you imagine your indefinite life. Do
you suspect that whole new avenues of existence and thought will open up? Or
do you view it as essentially more and better of the same?
------
placebo
Love of life is not the same as fear of death. If the latter is what drives
the search for longevity then it will never be enough. So long as longevity
isn't used to find peace with life and death, and transcend our limited
perspective on life then I see it as just a frantic attempt to delay the
inevitable. Resisting death at 150 will be just as painful as resisting it at
any other age. If on the other hand it will give people more time to gain
wisdom and perspective on what life is about then that's a whole different
story.
~~~
waterhouse
Assuming it's like any other product or service, the people that implement
longevity (if they do) will be a tiny fraction of the general population, and
certainly not a random sampling thereof. Most people who end up being able to
make use of longevity treatments will have had nothing to do with those who
implemented them (except by working for company A which made product X which
was used by company B to make ... which was one of the components the
longevity researchers used); I think it'll happen regardless of their opinion
about it (well, I guess if they violently opposed it, maybe they could stop
it).
So, it's less a question of what drives the search for longevity than what
we'll do with it once it arrives.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
C++ unified call syntax: x.f(y) vs. f(x,y) [pdf] - tpush
http://isocpp.org/files/papers/N4174.pdf
======
lokedhs
Oh great. More magic syntax that makes one thing look and behave like another,
while not actually being that other.
Every time C++ gets new features, I feel like the designers must never have
looked at a C++ core dump, trying to find out what actually happened. The
source code bears practically no relation to what actually happens.
The C++ designers should perhaps stop trying to make their language into
Common Lisp. You can only fake dynamic behaviour so far until it breaks.
~~~
kensai
I really don't understand this kind of bash every time C++ gets some cool new
feature. A developer that does NOT want to use a feature can always not use
it. But why should we deny it to those who are interested and use it at their
own risk?
~~~
golemotron
The problem is that there is no way to reduce complexity in a programming
language that is serious about backward compatibility. C++ now has close to 30
years of non-trivial additions built on the craggy basis of backward
compatibility with C and its own feature set.
In the early 1990s, it was complex. The Annotated Reference Manual that was
used as the de facto standard was full of edge cases and detail that required
a great deal of study. No other language since has approached that level of
complexity and I'm talking about what it was like before templates.
I sincerely believe that C++'s downfall is underway and it comes from a very
simple fact - it's increasingly hard (read impossible) for new C++ programmers
to go from zero knowledge of the language to being able to read and maintain
modern C++ programs that have taken full advantage of the feature set over the
past decades.
~~~
pjmlp
Yes it is complex, but you can say the same about almost any modern language.
If the language is not complex, then it is the eco-system.
~~~
golemotron
Yes, but on balance, I think that ecosystem complexity is both more tractable
and addressable than language complexity.
~~~
pjmlp
I think it is relative.
An ecosystem can also be quite complex, specially if it changes often.
Any newcomer will face the exact situation not knowing what to use, what is no
longer best practice or what should be avoided.
------
vidarh
The interesting part to me with this, is that for the last 20 years or so
there's been a certain strain of C++ development, spurred on by increasing
template/meta-programming support, that have advocated for moving more code to
non-member functions, to benefit from improved reuse.
But this has been awkward because it means calling conventions may often be
different and functionality that's "mixed in" this way seem far less
integrated than functionality that's brought in via inheritance. It's also had
the disadvantage that if you ever suddenly needed one of those free-standing
functions to depend on internal state of an object, you'd either have to break
encapsulation, or break the API (by moving the function into the class), or
provide a legacy function to forward to the new API.
This change would make it even more attractive to break out functionality that
does not depend directly on the internal state of an object as standalone
functions, in effect creating a sort-of "limited class re-opening".
~~~
phkahler
>> This change would make it even more attractive to break out functionality
that does not depend directly on the internal state of an object as standalone
functions, in effect creating a sort-of "limited class re-opening".
You can already write the functions that way, nobody is stopping you. f(x,y) a
function that returns something based on x and y. x.f(y) a method where object
type x does something based on y.
The second form will have access to private members of x and has some notion
of the object doing something. The first form implies that x is just an
argument to the function.
What I see is C++ going from object oriented to functional - in other words
following whats trendy.
That said, I think they should take all the lessons learned doing high
performance implementations of C++ and start over to create a new language
that doesn't suck with all the baggage.
~~~
yohanatan
> That said, I think they should take all the lessons learned doing high
> performance implementations of C++ and start over to create a new language
> that doesn't suck with all the baggage.
Oh, you mean Rust (programming language)?
------
toolslive
I would expect some comments on covariance here. With this you seem to have a
magic first parameter x that gets to be dispatched based on the runtime type
of x, while y isn't and gets to be overloaded according to its static type.
The dot notation at least conveys some notion of x being looked at in a
different way than y.
------
verytrivial
This idea _almost_ sounds like a joke. A member function is indeed different
from a non-member function precisely because it is not a member of the set of
functions responsible for maintaining the object's invariants. Treating
f(x, y);
as
x.f(y);
only makes sense (to me?) if all other things being equal, if f(x, y) is a
friend of the class. And picking the member function form over the non-member
function in the caller's scopes seems like a step _away_ from encapsulation.
Prefer non-member functions. Scott says so!
~~~
vidarh
Consider that under the hood, they result in the same code (unless f is a
virtual member function, in case it'd be equal to x.<vtable ptr>[vtable offset
of f](x,y)).
For non-virtual member functions they differ in syntax and lookup, not
implementation. In effect they provide two different syntaxes for something
that is _very_ often the same thing, namely executing a piece of code that
logically "belongs" to and operates on the first argument.
E.g. look at the C standard library, and consider how many of the functions
there operates on the state of the first argument.
This change would let you write an f() that does not have access to the
internals of x, yet can still be called the same way as the member functions,
providing increased uniformity and making the choice of member function vs.
non-member function more of an implementation choice by letting you reduce the
impact on the documented API:
> And picking the member function form over the non-member function in the
> caller's scopes seems like a step away from encapsulation. Prefer non-member
> functions. Scott says so!
Preferring non-member functions is exactly why I think this seems interesting.
The awkwardness of splitting an interface so people have to remember what is a
member function and what is a non-member function, and having to decide how it
should be split, easily results in a lot of stuff ending up as member
functions when it doesn't have to be.
If it's transparent to the user, there are fewer reasons to prefer member
functions, not least because "promoting" a non-member function to a member
function if you later need access to more internal state becomes easier.
------
pmontra
First of all, don't flame me too much because if you follow my advice it
wouldn't be C++ anymore. This is not a suggestion about the post but an invite
to think.
I always wondered why somebody designs object oriented languages with
functions and eventually run into this kind of problems.
An answer might be that they're not willing to wrap fundamental types with
classes, even if it would be only syntactic sugar that the compiler can easily
unwrap without losing efficiency in the generated code. Probably this is not
the only reason, as for the case of Python's len() and the like. Python's
designer actually wanted functions to make sure all classes had the same
methods, exported as functions.
Furthermore there might be historical reasons, in the case of C++ to make it
look like C. Too many differences can scary people away. Think about what it
took to make Objective-C successful, the almost impossibility to use any other
language to program on a given platform.
Finally, there is convenience, as in void fn(int x) {...} main() { ...; fn(x);
...} By the way, Ruby solves that by adding fn to the Kernel class so it
allows the same convenient syntax in a complete OO world.
Anyway, an OO language in which everything is an object doesn't suffer from
the kind of problems the post is trying to solve. Years ago I went to Ruby
from Java and a little of C++. I was happy not to have that kind of int vs
Integer duality. Then I looked at Python and found it a little bit weird with
functions mixed to methods, but that's the way it is.
So my advice is as radical as unrealistic in the case of C++: if you want to
change the language, make it use methods where it still uses functions. The
compiler will deal with that. Remember that when you'll design your next OO
language :-)
~~~
bcoates
In early-bound, single-dynamic-dispatch languages it makes a small amount of
sense, as x.fn() is the only syntax for a dynamic dispatch against object x
and fn(x) uses at most compile-time information to determine what fn gets
called.
------
adrusi
I like the idea of unified call syntax. I know D and Nimrod support a system
similar to the one proposed here, albeit they were designed with the syntax
from the start and avoid the more awkward edge cases.
If it can be proven not to break existing code, I think it would be a positive
addition to the language. I worry, however, that there might be some
confusion. I imagine seeing x.a().b().c() where you expect c(b(a(x))) would
throw you off.
An alternative worth considering is what Kotlin calls extension methods (and
I'm sure I've seen the idea elsewhere). The idea is you could declare a member
or non-member function to always be called with either call syntax. This
eliminates the burden on the programmer of choosing which syntax to use,
eliminates a lot of edge cases, but doesn't give the same flexibilty as the
unified syntax.
------
byuu
Oh, wow. I know most people dislike C++ language extensions, given how complex
the language already is. But as a library author, I truly believe this is the
most powerful and useful addition we can add to the language now. I've been
wanting this exact thing for years, but unfortunately you can't even do it as
a preprocessor due to the complexity of ADL and SFINAE on lookups.
First, I like Herb Sutter's propsal more (
[http://isocpp.org/files/papers/N4165.pdf](http://isocpp.org/files/papers/N4165.pdf)
), as Bjarne's proposal to favor x.f() when encountering f(x) would be a
breaking change. However, Herb's suggestion to accept x in any position in f
(eg x.f(a, b) could match f(a, x, b)), in order to wrap libc interfaces such
as FILE* more easily, I feel is a mistake. I'd rather we keep the complexity
of parsing down and write wrapper headers around libc to support the new
syntax instead (which is also a wonderful opportunity to get the functions and
#defines out of the global namespace.)
Onto utility ... as stated, nearly all of my time writing C++ is spent
creating libraries. This is always a huge struggle: you don't want users to
have to remember that some functions are class::func() and others are
func(class&), and indeed it makes for some really ugly code, eg c(b(a())
instead of a().b().c(). Further, since C++ classes cannot be reopened, it's a
real problem to just rely on users to extend your classes to add desired
features. Person A makes class fooObject : object, person B makes class
barObject : object. But now fooObject and barObject are incompatible, unless
you slice back to object, and lose the whole point of your extensions.
Unified function call syntax (UFCS) solves this nicely: member functions are
now only those that need access to private state. Your classes are much
smaller, which aids in encapsulation. Further, you don't have to code
everything but the kitchen sink into your classes anymore, the user can simply
add functionality that they need. Or you can offer the extensions piecemeal in
separate headers. So not only do we get UFCS, we also get a nicer form of C#
extension methods for free.
Further, it's a real boon to IDE auto-completion features to be able to know
available functions after object.[function] than it is after
function([object]; the former is much easier. Imagine an IDE trying to auto-
complete "begin(", for instance. That list is going to be hopelessly long.
Lastly, it will be very interesting to see what rules they put in place around
this and primitive types. If you can have square(int&), then you could call
int x = 5; int y = x.square(); But even more interesting will be if this is
allowed for constants: int x = 5.square(); string y = "hello".toUppercase();
... there is the potential to allow C++ to be a truly object oriented language
where everything is an object, if this is done right.
On that note, I haven't seen much talk around the implementation of f(x), but
they definitely need to allow for both x::f() -> f(x&) and x::f() const ->
f(const x&). I'm also a little concerned about x->f() -> f(x*), and how that
might play in with overloaded operator-> that you find in smart pointer
classes.
For those in favor of f(x, y) over x.f(y), please consider the history of
ambiguity around operator arguments. strcat is (target, source) whereas rename
is (source, target). There are thousands of examples like this. Putting the
target before the function call is an absolutely wonderful way to remove the
burden of having to remember each and every function's exact ordering. For
cases where there is no clear "target", regular function call syntax can still
be used, eg intersect(x, y)
But, complexities aside ... I really hope this feature makes it in, and that
the naysayers to all language extensions do not ruin this. It will completely
change the way I program in C++.
~~~
angersock
What is a use case in your library code where you have the problem of
class::func() vs func(class&)? I'm willing to wager your API is just plain
written badly in that case.
_It will completely change the way I program in C++._
This is a bug, not a feature.
I kind of think, at this point, Bjarne is trying to get the language to
implode once and for all so he can finally get some rest--and only has to take
such drastic measures because the community is too enamored with shiny to just
let the old dog die.
~~~
byuu
I must not have explained it well enough.
Take std::string. It is missing majorly useful functions that exist in other
languages, such as trim, transform, split/explode/tokenize, replace-by-string
(std::string is replace-by-length, which is more like memcpy), etc.
You can add those functions. But you can't add them into std::string. So you
get: void trim(string& s, const string& trim);
And now your code is a mix of two styles:
s.append(" Hello, World ");
trim(s, " ");
s.compare(...);
As I've explained, subclassing is dangerous. Two people each add their own
functions to their own derived types, and now those types aren't directly
compatible without slicing back to std::string.
So the problem, as a class author, is that you want to add all of the
functions a user might want, so that they can consistently use the same
syntax. So when you write your string class, users can then use it like so:
s.append(" Hello, World ");
s.trim(" ");
s.compare(...);
//or even possibly ...
s.append(" Hello, World ").trim(" ").compare(...);
(You may say the syntax difference doesn't matter, but I disagree strongly:
it's burdensome to remember which functions are string::foo(), and which
functions are foo(string&); and if I wanted to use foo(string&) exclusively,
then I'd go back to writing in C.)
This causes substantial bloat by packing string with a ridiculous number of
functions.
Some of those functions are going to be very niche. For instance, I have
find/replace/split functions that ignore values inside of quotes, which I use
extensively in a cross assembler I wrote. But they're not very useful for my
other programs. It would be nice if I could #include <string/extension/quoted-
strings.hpp> for the cross assembler, which would contain UFCS functions, and
leave this out of my other projects. Smaller compilation times, and easier to
create experimental/fluid extensions before committing them to the official
class API.
And if a user of my string library decided that they needed additional
functions, they too could add them.
I would go so far as to say that UFCS will result in more developers using the
C++ standard library containers and types, rather than rolling their own.
Which would be a huge win for the language.
------
nly
Even though it makes sense with regard to the way operators work currently
(they can be defined as members, or as free functions), it looks like a
breaking change to me
struct A {
double magic(int);
};
string magic(A&, int);
is currently legal code. Under this proposal they'd effectively be overloads
with different return types, which is is a compile-time error, unless I'm
missing something.
~~~
adrusi
In order to maintain compatability, magic(a,b) would have to call the
nonmember function and a.magic(b) would call the member function. Ideally, if
you were using this feature, you would enable a warning that tells you if
there's a collision like this in any scope. Otherwise, your code would
continue to work just as it already does.
Unless I'm missing something, I don't think this proposal would break
anything, and while the edge behavior for collisions is awkward and
unfortunate, at least its easy to identify and avoid
------
oleganza
Apple's Swift makes more sense with its curry feature. If you have class 'C'
with method 'm' taking argument 'x', you can call that method either like
c.m(x) or C.m(c, x) because C.m is automatically provided closure taking
instance of C (typically as "self") and argument x.
Most importantly, there is no magic going on with namespaces. Method 'm' still
belongs to its class's namespace.
------
lelf
Note: it's just a proposal. (And I'd say highly unlikely to be ratified: could
break things, don't bring anything.)
~~~
bodyfour
I don't know what it's chances of ratification are -- it does seem like an
aggressive change -- but I disagree that it doesn't add anything. This would
actually fix one of the biggest problems I have with large C++ development:
non-open classes.
Think of a widely used class -- for example lets use std::string. Maybe for
your program there are some missing methods that would really handy to add,
like maybe .urlencode(). Today in C++ you can't though: if the method isn't
mentioned in the original definition of std::string in its header file it's
permanently missing.
This leads to pressure to make a custom version of the class, either
inheriting or encapsulating the original. This seems to work OK but then can
lead to problems if you later want to interface with someone else's library
written in C++. For instance you might have "class mystring : public
std::string" and they have "class theirstring : ..." now you have to
explicitly convert between them even if data-wise they're 100% compatible.
This proposal neatly solves this problem -- you could just implement string
extensions as a function and still be able to call them like a regular method.
The ability to add methods to other people's types promotes type reuse.
~~~
jpatte
The same result could be achieved by introducing a smaller change to the
language that doesn't completely redefine the way existing functions are
evaluated. By using some specific signature (like adding a keyword to the
first argument of a function), you could indicate that this function may be
used as a member method of the first argument. For example, C# uses the
keyword 'this' for its extension methods:
public static class Helpers
{
public static string UrlEncode(this string url)
{
//...
}
}
// then later:
string someText = "...";
string a = Helpers.UrlEncode(someText); // valid
string b = someText.UrlEncode(); // valid too
But of course that would mean having to update all the function declarations
of the standard library to add the new keyword when needed...
~~~
bodyfour
Yes, I agree that there are simpler changes that would fix the problem, and
personally I'd root for them. Stroustrup's proposal is still interesting in
that it would solve it and unify operator/method dispatch at the same time. It
has a certain elegance.
------
oleganza
Stroustroup tries to bend your API to his liking only because in his opinion
certain syntax is "older" and more "general". Alarming quotes:
"The functional (mathematical) notation is far older and more general than the
object-oriented dot notation."
"For example, I prefer intersect(s1,s2) over s1.intersect(s2)."
~~~
zura
I'd also prefer "intersect(s1, s2)" if C++ had multimethods...
But to follow the line of Bjarne's advice (I've also heard same from
Stepanov): One should prefer non-member functions. i.e. there must be some
real reason for some function to become a member of a class.
~~~
throwawayaway
The problem with non member functions is that, once you start preferring them,
you are basically writing C. They are contagious. There's very little reason
for class members unless you want inheritance or polymorphism. Scott Meyers
has also promoted them:
[http://www.drdobbs.com/cpp/how-non-member-functions-
improve-...](http://www.drdobbs.com/cpp/how-non-member-functions-improve-
encapsu/184401197)
With non member functions declared in the header and defined in a .C file, and
suddenly you don't have RIAA any more or exceptions. Your .C files end up
being your division of concerns, not classes.
The only time you end up using any C++ features is interacting with a library
that prefers member functions.
~~~
zura
Well, the key thing is the `reason` here. In C++ we use RAII, so this is the
reason to have a member constructor/destructor functions instead of non-member
create_something(...)/destroy_something(...) (aka C style).
But, for instance, `sort` is a good candidate to have outside of a class - and
it actually is a global function - std::sort.
~~~
throwawayaway
RAII is your reason.
When you start preferring non member functions, you tend allocate on the
stack.
There are rare items that require heap allocation and other resources. For
those you can have classes. What I am saying is that when you prefer non
member functions you end up with very few classes.
~~~
nikbackm
You don't use classes only to get RAII. They are also useful when you have
data with invariants, which the constructor establishes. And of course, if you
want to use private data.
~~~
throwawayaway
by invariants do you mean constant values?
there's many ways to implement private data. if you prefer non member
functions, a class is a bunch of extra keystrokes to achieve the same as the
old fashioned C private data.
if you prefer non member functions to member functions, your private data
becomes a global variable or struct in a file, and the private data is not
accessible by getter/setter functions that are externalised.
~~~
zura
Having access to private data (implementation details) is another reason to
have a member function.
Unless you're a fan of `friend` keyword ;)
~~~
throwawayaway
i think you need to read my comment again because "private:" in a class is not
the only way to implement private data. you are only repeating what the parent
commenter said.
~~~
zura
Well, to follow your line - virtual functions can also be implemented with
some function pointer stuff within C. We're not discussing implementing
various C++ stuff in C, we're talking about C++ itself.
~~~
throwawayaway
be that as it may, it requires more keystrokes to implement virtual functions
in C than it does in C++.
however, it requires less keystrokes to implement private data in C, than it
does to create a class to store private data.
therefore it's questionable, if you are preferring non member non friend
functions, whether you should use classes when you want private data.
i refute the idea that private data is a reason to use classes, if you are
preferring non member non friend functions as advocated by Stroustrup, Meyers
and Stepanov.
as i said already
> There's very little reason for class members unless you want inheritance or
> polymorphism.
------
CountHackulus
Considering that this is already the case in D, it seems like it might be a
good idea. Though who knows how much havoc this will cause in older code bases
that are riddled with hacks.
------
KyleSanderson
The traditional C++ syntax to me is the most clear, hiding functions under
passing the hidden _this_ pointer just brings the entire thing seemingly back
to C.
------
ska
... and then it's a short step to adding multiple dispatch in a clean way.
I'm pretty sure that's not what Bjarne has in mind, though.
~~~
vinkelhake
Why are you sure about that? It's explicitly mentioned in the paper and Bjarne
has done research in the past on adding multiple dispatch to C++.
[http://www.stroustrup.com/multimethods.pdf](http://www.stroustrup.com/multimethods.pdf)
~~~
ska
Interesting, thanks. Color me much less sure then.
------
ANTSANTS
And so C++ takes another step towards Lisp.
------
Heliosmaster
Not sure if I like this. Smells like the Greenspun's tenth rule all over the
place.
------
tomp
I'm not a C programmer, but in general, I think this is a great idea. I really
wish that it could be added to a high-level language. However, I think it's
fundamentally incompatible with some of the features of high-level languages,
such as dynamic typing, first-class functions, partial application, parametric
polymorphism, structural typing/extensible records...
~~~
vidarh
I'm uncertain what languages other than C++ you think would benefit much from
this.
The reason C++ would benefit from this in the first place is because of a
combination of its lack of higher level features (e.g. enabling
extension/mixing in functionality in less painful ways) and its "C legacy" in
the form of vast amounts of non-OO code.
E.g. consider a language like Ruby, which has most of what you list as
features of "high-level languages". For Ruby this would be very weird to begin
with, because Ruby does not have non-member functions - everything calleable
in Ruby is a method; what looks like free-standing functions in Ruby are
functions on an object whose eigenclass is the implicit outermost scope.
What we'd do instead in Ruby is to put "function like" methods in a module
that we can include in whatever objects we want.
But you _can_ in fact easily achieve what this proposal does in Ruby.
~~~
tomp
Many languages that are not primarily object-oriented. E.g. it was proposed in
Rust [1]. It could also be added to many other functional languages, as often
the "object-oriented" function call syntax looks more natural (when the first
parameter is "special", the object of the call) than the "mathematical"
function call syntax (appropriate for when parameters are equivalent, e.g.
`max()` or `dot_product()`).
[1] [https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/rust-
dev/2013-October/006...](https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/rust-
dev/2013-October/006034.html)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The Grace of Manta Rays - dnetesn
http://oceans.nautil.us/feature/590/the-grace-of-manta-rays
======
kirrent
Douglas Adams wrote about his experience swimming with Manta Rays in an
article which is, to me, amongst his best bits of writing
([https://douglasadams.com/dna/980707-08-a.html](https://douglasadams.com/dna/980707-08-a.html)).
As a kid living on a boat on the east coast of Australia I have some happy
memories of watching manta rays feed at the surface nearby. Happy once I'd
realised that the wing tips silently breaking the surface weren't shark fins.
They really do move absurdly gracefully, unlike anything else I've ever seen
in the ocean.
------
ciguy
I had the privilege of diving with Manta Rays in Hawaii a few years ago. They
come to a specific bay to feed on plankton each night.
Seeing these 1000 pound animals glide through the water so peacefully was
surreal. In some cases they came just a few feet from us which was somewhat
terrifying as they really are massive. We had to sit down and hold onto rocks
on the ocean floor. They are harmless but could easily injure someone
accidentally due to sheer size.
~~~
lytfyre
A few years ago I did probably the same dive, just off the big island. Sharks
and whales are both _impressive_, but they don't have the sheer alien grace
about them and their movement.
It remains one of the most fantastic experiences I've ever had, above or below
the water.
~~~
ciguy
Same for me. I rate it among the top 5 experiences of my life. And I have been
traveling the world doing all kinds of adventure sports for many years.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ted Chiang Explains the Disaster Novel We All Suddenly Live In - toomuchtodo
https://electricliterature.com/ted-chiang-explains-the-disaster-novel-we-all-suddenly-live-in/
======
raleighm
I agree the current situation wouldn't make very compelling fiction.
> A pandemic story like that would be similar to what’s known as an “idiot
> plot,” a plot that would be resolved very quickly if your protagonist
> weren’t an idiot. What we’re living through is only partly a disaster novel;
> it’s also—and perhaps mostly—a grotesque political satire.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Emailgraph: Turn your email into social graphs - motters
http://sluggish.homelinux.net/wiki/Emailgraph
======
a3_nm
Down, here is the Google cache:
[https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:WTgUnz...](https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:WTgUnzt7mm4J:sluggish.homelinux.net/wiki/Emailgraph&hl=en&client=iceweasel-a&strip=1)
Here is the project page on launchpad: <https://launchpad.net/emailgraph>
Beware, the source archive is a tarbomb.
~~~
LiveTheDream
> Beware, the source archive is a tarbomb.
Thanks for the warning.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
How writing began, and other unexpectedly funny stories about cuneiform [video] - jelliclesfarm
https://aeon.co/videos/how-writing-began-and-other-unexpectedly-funny-stories-about-cuneiform
======
HocusLocus
I also recommend Thoth's Pill, an amazing historical overview of writing
systems that breaks new ground in animated video production... as they are
describing alphabet systems and letter figures they are drawn in real time and
presented on a clear crisp background.
Where most documentaries we've seen over the years show glimpses of
photographs of ancient writing samples, often dimly lit or weathered and
faded, tending to make it more about documents than language -- _these_ folk
are writing script and glyphs on computer, presenting detailed traces or
brushing the characters and building alphabets, explaining down to the
character/sound.
For children this is precious. If I had seen something like this when I was
young, it would have sucked me in and maybe changed the course of my life.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdO3IP0Pro8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdO3IP0Pro8)
~~~
tasogare
> For children this is precious. If I had seen something like this when I was
> young, it would have sucked me in and maybe changed the course of my life.
I’m fascinated by writing systems since childhood. It was only at the end of
high-school that I could start teaching myself about Chinese script with
Wikipedia. A decade later I was finally able to start Sumerian. This is
incredibly niche and hard to find classes for before college level. Internet
helped a lot.
Also it drove me to East-Asian languages which, like you suppose it, indeed
totally changed the course of my life, for the best.
~~~
jelliclesfarm
Fascinating. May I ask how one would go about learning Sumerian. Any
resources/online classes would be much appreciated.
I am currently reading Enuma Elish and Epic of Gilgamesh translated. It’s a
rabbit hole. My wish list for the rest of my life is significantly longer
now.. some of them possible..learning Sumerian/Akkadian and going to Pamir Hwy
and silk route.. Checking out where Oxus flowed and ancient civilizations
lived seems like a 2020 thing to do.
~~~
tasogare
Do you read French? If yes, there is this remote diploma of Sumerian offered
by the University of Strasbourg (costs around 400€/year, formation of two
years): [https://histoire.unistra.fr/offre-de-formation/diplome-
duniv...](https://histoire.unistra.fr/offre-de-formation/diplome-duniversite-
de-langues-anciennes). This is the path I took. The Louvre Museum also has
epigraphy courses, but nothing remote.
Then there are the free resources such as ePSD (dictionary), materials put
online by CDLI, le manuel d'épigraphie akkadienne de René Labat
([https://archive.org/details/LabatR.ManuelDEpigraphieAkkadien...](https://archive.org/details/LabatR.ManuelDEpigraphieAkkadienne5Ed1976))
that also contains Sumerian reading of symbols, Jagersma thesis. Those are
necessary to got further, but as the language is really grammatical, it not
something that can really be learnt without class in my opinion.
------
hprotagonist
Irving Finkel is a treasure.
~~~
jedimastert
He really is. He's got two incredible videos with Tom Scott where the two of
them play what could be considered the worlds oldest game[0] and he introduces
Tom and Matt to "writing" cuneiform[1]. He's so sharp in both, I love seeing
him anywhere else now.
[0]:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZskjLq040I](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZskjLq040I)
[1]:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOwP0KUlnZg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOwP0KUlnZg)
------
imvetri
thanks for sharing. Watched the full video.
Something worth to spend time than any other posts here.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Making authenticated API calls to Twitter using PHP and JQuery - mootymoots
http://www.reynoldsftw.com/2009/02/authenticating-twitter-api-calls-with-php-and-jquery/
======
mootymoots
Has anyone developed any interesting Twitter mashups out there?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Haskell style list comprehensions in Ruby - ldubinets
https://gist.github.com/andkerosine/3356675
======
wedesoft
Somewhat related: I've developed a library for operations involving multi-
dimensional arrays [1, 2]. When possible it uses GCC for jit-compilation to
achieve higher performance.
require 'multiarray'
include Hornetseye
# Object
lazy(4) { |i| i + 2 }
# Sequence(INT):
# [ 2, 3, 4, 5 ]
lazy(3, 2) { |x, y| x }
# MultiArray(INT,2):
# [ [ 0, 1, 2 ],
# [ 0, 1, 2 ] ]
lazy(3, 2) { |x, y| x + 1 }
# MultiArray(INT,2):
# [ [ 1, 2, 3 ],
# [ 1, 2, 3 ] ]
lazy(3, 3) { |x, y| y + 4 }
# MultiArray(INT,2):
# [ [ 4, 4, 4 ],
# [ 5, 5, 5 ],
# [ 6, 6, 6 ] ]
lazy(3, 3) { |x, y| (x + 1) * (y + 4) }
# MultiArray(INT,2):
# [ [ 4, 8, 12 ],
# [ 5, 10, 15 ],
# [ 6, 12, 18 ] ]
lazy { |x,y| Sequence['n', 'p', 'r', 't'][x] + Sequence['a', 'i', 'u', 'e', 'o'][y] }
# MultiArray(OBJECT,2):
# [ [ "na", "pa", "ra", "ta" ],
# [ "ni", "pi", "ri", "ti" ],
# [ "nu", "pu", "ru", "tu" ],
# [ "ne", "pe", "re", "te" ],
# [ "no", "po", "ro", "to" ] ]
s = lazy(33) { |i| 3 * (i+1) }
# Sequence(INT):
# [ 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18, 21, 24, 27, 30, 33, 36, 39, 42, 45, 48, 51, .... ]
s.mask((s % 2).eq(0)).collect { |i| i ** 2 / 3 }
# Sequence(INT):
# [ 12, 48, 108, 192, 300, 432, 588, 768, 972, 1200, 1452, 1728, .... ]
[1] <https://github.com/wedesoft/multiarray> [2]
<http://www.wedesoft.de/hornetseye-api/>
------
tome
It's neat that Ruby has programmable syntax like this, but Haskell's
comprehensions are one of its worst syntactic features IMHO. They're
inherently non-composable.
~~~
nimish
They're equivalent to do-notation in the List monad so as long as you don't
really need the inline syntax you can just mechanically translate it to do
nation and back.
And with -XMonadComprehensions you can have the compiler do that for a whole
bunch more Monads.
~~~
surement
It's also possible to just use Applicative with <*> and <$>
------
VeejayRampay
Cue to Haskell people lamenting the fact that this is an abomination and not
by any means "Haskell-style list comprehensions".
Still very nice though.
~~~
weareconvo
Haskell person here... I personally find Haskell list comprehensions to be
ridiculously ugly, and are an unnecessary bit of syntactic sugar over the List
Monad.
~~~
dons
... you might want to read up on monad comprehensions :)
<http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/MonadComprehensions>
~~~
weareconvo
Okay, as much as I hate syntactic sugar... that's pretty freakin awesome.
------
andkerosine
This has no business being at the top of HN.
~~~
Osmium
Why not? Seems pretty damn cool to me.
Edit: didn't realise you were the author :)
~~~
andkerosine
As its creator, I would certainly agree. Still, I'd feel bad if some poor soul
considered it anything but an interesting demonstration of Ruby's
capabilities.
~~~
zerr
Btw, it would be great if you add some comments there. What are the key (all
of it?) parts? etc...
------
egonschiele
Oh wow, that is so wrong and so beautiful.
------
dopamean
As someone who is still learning Ruby and would like to learn Haskell I have
no idea what is going on here. Would someone be kind enough to explain?
Thanks.
~~~
phaer
It's just adding a syntactic construct to ruby which looks similar to haskells
list comprehensions. Explanation for haskell:
[http://learnyouahaskell.com/starting-out#im-a-list-
comprehen...](http://learnyouahaskell.com/starting-out#im-a-list-
comprehension)
~~~
dopamean
Ah, I get it. Thanks dude.
------
gbog
Side question, rant. I love the syntactic side of list or dict comprehension
(in python) and often use them but as soon as I have to debug or expand the
functionality, I have to slice them into for loop. And then I hate myself for
being lazy/clever and more and more, when I start typing a = [, I hear an
internal voice: wait, aren't you being wrongfully clever one again?
I am the only one?
~~~
obviouslygreen
I adore list comprehensions, but perhaps for this reason, I generally only use
them for operations so simple as to be trivially correct or incorrect without
any debugging.
Dict comprehensions are just a little muddier, even for simple things, but a
single line of debug output after the comprehension should confirm whether or
not you're getting the structure you expect, provided you are still doing only
trivial work inside your comprehension.
------
stiff
Wow, that's some nontrivial Ruby, some explanation of this code would be nice,
I program in Ruby for some 6 years now and I still had to do a lot of head-
scratching to more or less figure this out. I had no idea Ruby allows
overloading of prefix operators, for example.
~~~
saraid216
There is an excellent book called "Metaprogramming Ruby" I'd recommend.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
What Is Wrong with Communism? - no-one-is-here
======
082349872349872
According to the recently re-elected polish President, whatever was wrong with
it, was not as wrong as granting LGBT rights.
[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-
europe-53039864](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53039864)
(Duda was born 16 May 1972, so he ought to have some personal experience of
their relative "wrongness")
------
uberman
At a macro level, with communism, the state will inevitably fail to predict
the correct demand for products and the result will be that a black market
will rise for products with more demand than supply and the wasteful
destruction/dumping of products with more supply than demand. The rise of
black markets in particular will ultimately undermine the communist's promise
of "to each according to their need". Almost all modern communistic systems
are actually mixed economic systems reflecting that a pure communistic model
is not feasible.
At a micro level, communism saps the entrepreneurial energy from economies as
it relies on the state to determine what goods and services should be
produced. It also potentially acts like a disincentive to work as work is
performed for the national well-being not the personal well-being. Not that
all individuals reject the notion of patriotic work for the betterment of the
nation but I feel that more are incentivized by personal rather than patriotic
rewards.
Traditionally, communism leads to the restriction of movement and voice for
the citizenry. Any system that needs to erect laws and walls to keep its own
citizens from leaving or voicing their displeasure seems to be a system that
is fundamentally flawed. I am not saying that any other "pure" ideology
(particularly free market capitalism) is without faults, but you asked
specifically about faults related to communism.
------
vladmk
There's nothing inherently wrong with the system, in fact it's amazing. The
problem with it is people, the government and people can easily get corrupted
leading it into a North Korea like system politicians can take advantage of.
~~~
kazinator
There is plenty of wrong with any form of collectivism, no matter how just are
its courts, and how free is its administration from corruption.
------
eucryphia
He says it like it's a bad thing:
"The bourgeoisie cannot exist without constantly revolutionising the
instruments of production, and thereby the relations of production, and with
them the whole relations of society. Conservation of the old modes of
production in unaltered form, was, on the contrary, the first condition of
existence for all earlier industrial classes. Constant revolutionising of
production, uninterrupted disturbance of all social conditions, everlasting
uncertainty and agitation distinguish the bourgeois epoch from all earlier
ones. All fixed, fast-frozen relations, with their train of ancient and
venerable prejudices and opinions, are swept away, all new-formed ones become
antiquated before they can ossify. All that is solid melts into air, all that
is holy is profaned, and man is at last compelled to face with sober senses
his real conditions of life, and his relations with his kind.
The need of a constantly expanding market for its products chases the
bourgeoisie over the entire surface of the globe. It must nestle everywhere,
settle everywhere, establish connexions everywhere."
— Marx 'Communist Manifesto'
------
CLPadvocate
The problem (with Communism and with answering your question) is that
Communism was never implemented yet, thus making it hard to say to what degree
it can be implemented at all. The most "communist" thing that the world had
were different collective communities, for example the original Kibbutzim in
Israel, which can at least be considered "socialist" to a large degree. On the
other hand none of them were state entities, which means they were heavily
influenced by a surrounding state form.
From a formal point of view, Communism can be considered one of the purest
forms of democracy, which makes it susceptible to the largest problem every
democracy has - the people. Any democratic society relies extremely on the
people's good will, (social) responsibility, and education. That makes it also
the most fragile state form possible - as soon as even one of the criteria
fails, the society inevitably changes. It can be a more or less slow evolution
into an aristocracy or a monarchy, or a rather revolutionary change into an
ochlocracy, oligarchy or a tyranny.
~~~
kazinator
Various small scale systems such as farming or housing co-operatives are
arguably forms of implemented communism. However, those are not complete,
autonomous governments with their own borders, armies and justice systems. :)
~~~
CLPadvocate
that's pretty much also what I said :)
------
maxharris
the individual is the smallest minority group you can possibly have
------
realpanzer
No matter what intentions communists had, path to Communism always led to
tyrrany.
~~~
kazinator
No instance of communism started with good intentions. The starting point was
the seizure of property, which is already a form of tyranny.
Imagine being declared scum because you own a business, and having almost
everything taken away from you.
~~~
CLPadvocate
but also to be honest, most of the "businessmen" were scum - we're talking
about 19th/beginning of the 20ieth century, where a worker was worth basically
nothing. 16 or even up to 20 working hours per day were usual, even for
children of ages of 10-12. and that for a salary that was barely sufficient to
rent a corner (literally!) in a room and a bit to eat (and you don't want to
know what was in this food).
there were exceptions, but even the better working conditions were so far
below today's standards that calling e.g. the factory owner "scum" would
actually be way too mild.
~~~
kazinator
In 20th century communist revolutions, small business owners such as
storekeepers had their property taken away.
It is not a historically correct view that only those business people who
matched evil stereotypes from Charles Dickens novels were targeted for
dispossession, and everyone else could continue on as before.
It simply became a crime to own property pretty much beyond personal
belongings.
Your own little farm, book store, whatever.
Talk to anyone of Chinese descent who got on a boat and the hell out of
Vietnam when the communists won the war.
Speaking of descent, these communist takeovers have been tinged with
racism/xenophobia. Whereas in Vietnam it was the Chinese elite with money and
education, in the The Soviet revolution, the situation was heavily anti-
semitic since a lot of the business owners were Jews.
Modern liberals in America, especially anyone too young to remember and relate
to the cold war are, know basically fuck all about any of this. No first hand
account of anything, just indoctrination from politically-correct sources.
I myself am a refugee from former Czechoslovakia. I actually lived in
communism.
Ironically, now I once again may not criticize communism. Wait, that's not
even what I'm doing. Rather, I may not make uncontroversial, true statements
about communism that Stalin would likely agree with if he were here.
------
eucryphia
[https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-09-23/video-uyghurs-
shaved-...](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-09-23/video-uyghurs-shaved-
blindfolded-xinjiang-train-station-china/11537628)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The Most Important, Overlooked Statistic about NYC's Bike Sharing Program - avidas
http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2014/05/30/nyc_citi_bike_zero_fatalities_in_new_york_city_bike_share_program_s_first.html
======
guiambros
Please don't editorialize titles. The original one describes the content
perfectly well: _" Not One Person Has Died on an NYC Bike-Share Bike"_
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Kivo (YC S13) Uses Git to Make Collaborating on Documents Easier - zefi
http://techcrunch.com/2013/08/05/kivo-uses-git-to-make-collaborating-on-documents-easier-starting-with-powerpoint/
======
minor_nitwit
Wasn't this problem already solved by Sharepoint and SVN? If I do a diff from
SVN at work, it automatically brings up the compare documents screen in Word.
If your company is of any decent size you have a server of your own, so what's
the advantage of putting the repository on Kivo?
Microsoft is always going to have an edge over anyone when it comes to
Microsoft Office documents, so even if some of this idea becomes successful, I
don't see how it stays out of office for long.
~~~
djtriptych
Please let me borrow your time machine.
~~~
minor_nitwit
Just install Tortoise SVN. Create a repository on your shared server, and then
add a folder on your local machine to the repository. When you commit a file,
you'll have a diff option, as well as locks and everything else you get.
------
MarcScott
I work in education, so I looked at this with interest (PowerPoint is a
teacher's staple, although I personally prefer Reveal.js).
I think a closer model to GitHub and the Windows app would be more useful to
me. The Github Windows app is able to pick up differences in Word documents
without any trouble already (although probably just text changes).
When working on a project, we normally have multiple files in a directory. A
PowerPoint or two, a couple of Word docs and maybe an Excel file. A standalone
app, rather than a PowerPoint plugin, would be able to look for all changes in
the directory such as the addition of image files.
More importantly I would like to see pull requests. I like to share my
resources with other educators, that aren't part of my 'team'. It would be
nice if they could make improvements to my resources and then submit a pull
request, so I could review what they've done and then accept it.
Just my thoughts. I've long thought we need a GitHub for teachers, but I don't
have the skills to implement this yet.
~~~
ahtomski
You should check out this
[http://www.teachhub.meliordevelopment.com/](http://www.teachhub.meliordevelopment.com/).
We built it in a weekend exploring exactly that problem in schools.
------
spion
Interesting. We applied with a very similar concept (except starting with Word
instead of PowerPoint and with more focus on email and tasks doable on mobile
devices) in winter 2012 and got immediately rejected. Our pitch was probably
not good enough...
We're working without YC's help anyway and hoping to launch soon :)
------
omegant
I´m working from the air mac but I´ll give it a shot when I get home. This is
exactly one of the ideas that I have been wondering with my friends (don´t
worry we are with another project right now), git-like collaborative editing,
but more centered on docs, as we where working on documentation. Working with
several comments and version on the same document is a pain!, good luck with
this. Some questions: -is there a version map? like a facebook timeline but
with all the lines of the branches-users. Where I can see the last commits by
user, but also the diff on a slide basis.
-is there a project owner, the one that accepts commits (I suppose there is one)
-I really like sigma´s idea. Be able to split between visual updates and content updates (but not a priority)
-how do you express-print the diff function on a slide? have you considered about a toogle button, or a slider to change between different versions of the different branches?.
-Is the document´s owner able to merge a single slide from a branch(user) that he likes, and then at the next slide choose from another branch(user)?
-How do you manage annotations?
I´ll defenitely check it when I´ll get home, there is a big oportunity here.
Personally we have tried with google docs, office 365, and the like, they just
don´t work. On a side note if you happen to need distribution for SaaS on a IT
basis and want to be able to control how people uses your product (and charge
accordingly), just contact us at apparly.com .
------
jlgreco
Kivo was previously discussed here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6023423](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6023423)
I think it's an idea with a lot of potential, if executed correctly. Great to
see they're YC S13!
------
chrisgd
I can immediately see use for this product. As a former investment banker, the
majority of your time is spent in powerpoint sending different documents back
and forth between analyst, associate and VP. Track changes always worked fine
in word for the majority of my purposes. I imagine there are a number of
investment banks, both bulge bracket and otherwise that could benefit from
this.
~~~
charleyma
Definitely seconding a clear use-case for bankers, I've done basic versions of
git repo doc sharing;
however the primary concern that I always have with any sort of version
control programs is the fact that the documents must be completely internal
and within our firewall, any sort of external hosting is usually not secure
enough, and most solutions seem to lack easy implementation due to the speed
of technology at large banks.
~~~
zefi
We will be offering self hosted deployments behind the firewall. All we need
is a Git server and you're away. Would be good to chat more, I'm [email protected]
------
Oculus
I remember either Asana, Stripe, or Quora suggesting to build a similar
program to help your application when applying. I always thought it was a
super cool idea, but never got around to building one.
I'll try and find a link later today.
------
6thSigma
How does merging work? It didn't cover that in the video.
~~~
pea
Hey 6thSigma! I'm Leo, CTO @ Kivo:
There are two things you'd merge: changes to the whole presentation (i.e. new
slides), and multiple changes to the same slide. In the first instance, we
slot together the slides and alert the user. In the latter instance (if you
sync a change and I sync a change to a single slide), they will both appear
chronologically in the list. It is up to the user to merge these versions
together.
Automatic merging works well with code because you can move locations of
functions and -- to some extent -- chunks of code (although git usually will
require some merge resolution); as we are merging something (a slide) which,
unlike code, has to appear a certain way visually, this approach doesn't make
much sense. Auto-merging together two slides with different content would not
have a desirable result. I'd love to hear your ideas on what you think the
best UX for this is.
~~~
6thSigma
Yeah, I get what you're saying. This is what I was thinking:
Say Person A and Person B are working on a slide that has the text "Hello
World" centered on a white background.
Person A makes a change to the slide by changing the background to red and
moving the text box up 10 pixels.
Person B makes a change to the slide by changing the text to "Hello World!"
They both sync at the same time.
Ideally, Kivo would be able to differentiate the changes as non-conflicting.
For some reason I doubt Microsoft's Powerpoint API allows you to differentiate
between those changes, however. :)
~~~
pea
Yeah that would totally make sense. There is quite a lot to work with in the
OpenXML library (as PP documents are essentially just XML in a zip file). If
you could segregate regions of a slide and delegate ownership that could be a
reality; I guess the UX problem is having different behavior from similar
actions (I.e., how do I know when it's going to merge or if I have to do it
myself?). We were thinking the best way would be some document-based version
of a 3-way-diff (TortoiseHG have a good one on windows). Regarding the PP COM
API, you want to stay away from it as much as possible and stick to
proprietary XML serialization..! Cheers for your feedback, and ping me an
email whenever: [email protected]
------
ajaymehta
Absolutely awesome product, congrats on the launch!
------
jaksmit
it should probably detect that I'm on a Mac and not direct me to download a
.exe file...
~~~
zefi
sorry about that, we will do. There's a mac sign up link in the top bar to add
to be added the mac beta.
------
kamweti
off topic but there is a brand mix-up here, did Cove
[http://getcove.com/](http://getcove.com/) rebrand to kivo?
~~~
zefi
wow! great spot. We used to be called Verse(.io) and wanted to change to a
.com. Cove was one of our options but we didn't go with it in the end. Need to
add a redirect. How did you find the url?
~~~
kamweti
it was unanticipated, I was happily doing a google search for the first guy in
your testimonials and it came up
~~~
zefi
awesome. thanks again for reminding us!
------
vladaionescu
Nice!
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Facebook photos now 2048 pix wide - jkaljundi
http://blog.facebook.com/blog.php?post=432670242130
======
avar
This is much better, but 2048 pixels is still significantly smaller than
modern high-quality digital cameras produce. It would be better if they
weren't scaled down at all.
They also don't mention what happened to previously uploaded photography.
Presumably there's no way to get the high-quality originals upscaled now and
users have to re-upload them.
~~~
jkaljundi
Running some local photo sharing sites in Europe myself, with tens of millions
of photos, I would say people rarely open the originals or anything larger
than 2048. Originals make sense only for historic archiving and paper prints.
99% of users never look at anything larger than what fits on their screen.
Most photo sites keep the originals for future upscaling though, I would
assume Facebook has done this as well? Storage is cheap. Even Youtube I
believe has kept all the originals uploaded, even when they offered crappy
low-res videos on the site. Correct me if I'm wrong.
------
smackfu
That is awesome. So many people have moved exclusively to Facebook for photos
(because really it's only your friends who care), and better quality is always
good.
Plus it makes the "print your Facebook photos" feature a lot less stupid.
------
robryan
Great to see some of the results of the divvyshot acquisition finally coming
to fruition.
~~~
cliffchang
Yeah, notice that the blog post was written by Sam Odio!
------
rbritton
The most important question for me is have they improved the compression and
resizing quality at all? Historically Facebook's treatment of uploaded images
has severely degraded them, often to the point where an originally sharp image
looks blurry.
------
STHayden
this is a great idea. In my mind their pictures and galleries is really what
was one of the first big breaks for Facebook.
------
duck
I'm not a Flickr user, but was wondering what does it offer that Facebook
doesn't?
~~~
smackfu
Geotagging. EXIF info. Creative Commons licensing options. Traffic stats.
Slidshows. Downloads of the original file.
~~~
johannchiang
Exactly. Wish that there is an option for users to keep EXIF including
geotagging. And give us API to query metadata of pictures (with privacy
control).
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Chris Sacca: Couldn't be happier for Omnisio - prakash
http://www.whatisleft.org/lookie_here/2008/07/couldnt-be-happ.html
======
maximilian
He says that Omnisio was part of his "portfolio". I assume that means he had
stake in the company, so by being acquired, he made bank. Of course he
"couldn't be happier". If I just cashed out for bank I couldn't think of a way
to be happier either.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Helping Fliers Avoid Change Fees for a Modest Fee - e15ctr0n
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/28/business/helping-fliers-avoid-change-fees-for-a-modest-fee.html
======
CaptainZapp
Your plans suddenly change, and a flight must be switched. Soon you are paying a flight-change fee of $200 or so.
(I really hate being a defender of the airline industry, but here we go
anyway)
If you're not sure about your plans you have three options:
You can wait until you're sure to buy a ticket
You can buy a ticket at a higher priced, refundable fare
You buy a cheap _non-refundable_ ticket and risk losing on it if you can't
take the flight, or need to change it
Flying, overall, got so incredible cheap. I read (meaning I can't give you a
source, but it sounds realistic) that taking a flight from Europe to Australia
40 years ago required 8 average monthly salaries. Today it's less than half an
average monthly salary.
Sure the perks got less and less and while flying may have been a glamourous,
champagne drenched affair then those times are certainly gone; at least in
cattle class.
I'm always bugged by whiners complaining that they bought a return flight from
New York to London for 399$ and then complain that they can't change it,
because they just don't seem to grasp the concept of _non-refundable_. If you
want refundable, that can be had. For 4x the price.
There are a lot of valid gripes about the industry. From penny pinching, to
ridiculous fees (like 10EUR to have your boarding pass printed) to rotten
"customer service", etc.
But if you buy a cheap ticket, which is sold with restrictions that are
communicated up-front then stop whining.
~~~
mathgeek
"I'm always bugged by whiners complaining that they bought a return flight
from New York to London for 399$ and then complain that they can't change it,
because they just don't seem to grasp the concept of non-refundable. If you
want refundable, that can be had. For 4x the price."
What are your thoughts on a system that allows for resale of unwanted tickets
through a vetted third party (assuming that third party has the proper tools
in place to vet purchasers through the normal security checks when buying a
flight)?
~~~
CaptainZapp
In principle I think it would be a good idea, but it will never fly (sorry),
since it would not only cut into the airlines' baseline, but totally sabotage
the concept of yield management (or price discrimantion, if you prefer), which
is totally essential to the business model of an airline (or hotel, or car
rental company).
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yield_management](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yield_management))
While this may seem frustrating I can - to some degree - understand their
position, since there would be a business model in that.
A cabin is divided into a number of classes. That's not just first -, business
- and economy -, but economy class as such is divided into a number of sub
classes, which are sold under different conditions for different fares.
For example: Swiss offers the following fare classes in economy (I assume this
goes for the whole Lufthansa group, but didn't check). From most expensive to
cheapest:
B, Y
G, H, M, U
Q, S, V, W
E, K, L, T
Now they have a certain amount of seats available in, say, fare class K. Once
they are sold out you can only book seats in classes S, H or even Y. It
fluctuates, though. They may add more seats to cheaper classes if the flight
is in danger of not selling out.
Let's assume that I buy K class tickets for a flight, from which I assume that
it sells out well in advance. Two weeks before the fllight is scheduled and
only (much) more expensive tickets in B and M class are available I offer my
tickets for sale and share the savings with the buyer, who, in theory would
have been willing to pay a much higher price.
So in essence it's the ability of the airlines to price discriminate, which
would be endangered if tickets are resellable.
You can argue that this is not right and unfair. Then again it's price
discrimination, which enables very cheap flights. Provided you book in a
timely manner and accept limited or no flexibility.
------
tamana
Nice submarine PR for these new travel insurance companies, selling an old
product with a new face.
------
hchenji
Why doesn't the article mention Southwest Airlines??
~~~
sardonicbryan
It does: "Only Southwest Airlines, which distinguishes itself among major
airlines by largely shunning fees, does not charge to switch flights."
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Estimating quantiles with O(1) space - baruch
http://research.neustar.biz/2013/09/16/sketch-of-the-day-frugal-streaming/
======
baruch
I really thought I found something rather new as I've been looking for such a
topic for some time now. But there is a sub-reddit for that
[http://www.reddit.com/r/CompressiveSensing/](http://www.reddit.com/r/CompressiveSensing/)
Oh well, it is still interesting and still useful to me to find this term of
Frugal Streaming and Compressive Sensing. I can foresee lots of time wasted on
this instead of my real project :-)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Drinking 3-4 Cups of Coffee Is “More Likely to Benefit Health Than to Harm It” - Exo_Tartarus
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/11/171122190659.htm
======
Exo_Tartarus
I'm going to go out on a limb here and state a theory I've been considering
for a while that could explain these coffee health benefit results...
The liquids I and everyone else consumes can be placed in two classes: pure
water and everything else.
When I'm not drinking pure water, my drink of choice is usually coffee, of
which I drink about 3 cups a day.
Now let's think of the alternative non water drinks out there... Many of them
are sodas which have obscenely high sugar levels, just like most drinks that
aren't pure water.
Someone who doesn't drink coffee may have more of these sugar containing
drinks when they're not drinking pure water, inundating their bodies with
harmful amounts of sugar.
So the benefits we see from high levels of coffee consumption come not from
the coffee itself but from a substitution effect of replacing unhealthy sugary
drinks with coffee.
A good test for this would be to see if tea drinkers also experience health
benefits similar to those seen in the study. If not then that may indicate
that my theory is wrong.
~~~
Nydhal
Here's another theory. Coffee makes you move more. Moving is healthy. Think of
how coffee gets people off their desks to get it and also because of the
caffeine and the need to urinate after. Its unlike other drinks as people
don't carry it in bottles, it requires more movement. Maybe the sedentary
lifestyle is what's killing people.
~~~
kelvin0
Coke and Meth also make you move more ... not sure I'd call those health
supplements.
~~~
digi_owl
Could have sworn i have seen old ads for meth as a diet pill...
------
d_burfoot
In about 100 years, people will realize that this kind of research doesn't
actually work.
Here's the problem: the human body is an immensely complex system, with
millions of factors influencing its status and well-being. Untangling these
factors correctly and producing an accurate and sophisticated statistical
theory of the body would require a comparably large number of parameters - on
the order of millions or more.
Unfortunately, modern medical science relies on low-N observational or
clinical trials, with N on the order of hundreds or thousands. In this
radically low-data regime it is impossible to justify the use of complex
models. If you try to use a complex model, you will just get overfitting. You
can use a simple model to avoid overfitting, but there's no reason to believe
that a simple model will produce a good approximation of the underlying
dynamics.
~~~
cJ0th
I've never understood this phenomena myself. Those who do this kind of
research on a daily basis must have been rather smart to get their job.
Surely, they must be intelligent enough to realize that what they do does not
really add up to much?
~~~
Asooka
Publish or perish.
------
RobertRoberts
I think this kind of information is funded by the caffeine industry. This is
pure insanity. It took me a month to quick coffee (IT professional here) and
to stop hating my life. Another 5 months to finally get completely over it
where I didn't feel like I was dragging every day.
Now, I am free from coffee addiction and happy as I have ever been. No way in
hell is that stuff good for you.
Read Caffeine Blues, it will wake you up for real.
[https://www.amazon.com/Caffeine-Blues-Hidden-Dangers-
America...](https://www.amazon.com/Caffeine-Blues-Hidden-Dangers-
Americas/dp/0446673919/)
~~~
vesak
Yeah, what I find weird is this:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_coffee_chemicals](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_coffee_chemicals)
More than a thousand chemical compounds in coffee, area of active research.
Does this imply that we don't know much about coffee yet?
And more anecdotally, what I find weird is that when I switch from coffee
drinking to tea and soft drinks, there seems to be no amount of caffeine
intake that make the withdrawal symptoms go away. For me, there certainly is
something in coffee besides caffeine that hooks me.
~~~
gizmonty
There are more than a thousand chemical compounds in anything you eat that
came from nature.
------
e9
We all have gene in our liver for making enzyme that breaks down caffeine. Due
to small genetic differences, some of us have enzyme that breaks down caffeine
quickly and others that breaks it down slowly. If you win genetic lottery and
produce enzyme that breaks down caffeine fast then you flush out caffeine and
end up reaping benefits of antioxidants found in coffee beans. If you have
enzyme that breaks down caffeine slowly, caffeine hangs around longer causing
health problems. That's all there is.
~~~
nastygibbon
Do you have a source for this?
~~~
vesak
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CYP1A2](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CYP1A2)
~~~
jooke
Where on this page does it say that having this mutation makes coffee less
harmful?
------
cletus
So the article touched on this briefly but I think it's a point worth
exploring: a big problem with many sources of caffeine is also that sugar
confuses the issue. Many people have an excessive amount of sugar with their
coffee (personally I find coffee revolting and 4+ sugars is the only way I
could cope if I were forced to drink it).
Other caffeinated drinks (eg sodas) are either sweetened (sugar or HFCS or
have artificial sweeteners.
So about a month ago I decided I was drinking too much caffeine. I'm talking
600-700mg a day. I should also point out that my variance with and without
caffeine is pretty low. In college for example I tried once to take caffeine
pills to stay awake to cram. Not sure how much I took but it was enough that
my hands were shaking. I still fell asleep just fine. Some people really do
seem a whole lot more sensitive to this than I am.
Anyway, my reason wasn't coffee in particular but sugar. For years I've drunk
artificial sweetener sodas and ignoring any other possible side effects I
think the big problem is that they still taste sweet so it seems like they
still feed the craving loop for sugar without containing any sugar.
It's early days yet but I think I can already notice some difference. Like I
had ice cream tonight that I've had many times before and it tasted too sweet.
Anyway I think it's impossible to talk about caffeine consumption without also
considering sugar consumption because they really do go hand in hand.
Caffeine is a stimulant and seems like it can be used to enhance some
activities including athletic ones [1].
[1] [https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/03/how-
athle...](https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/03/how-athletes-
strategically-use-caffeine/283758/)
~~~
jacalata
> Anyway I think it's impossible to talk about caffeine consumption without
> also considering sugar consumption because they really do go hand in hand.
Not for everyone - there are people who drink coffee black with no sugar
(especially espresso drinkers).
~~~
erikbye
Yep. I only drink black coffee, no sugar, and I don't eat sweets, cookies, or
anything. In fact, I mostly don't consume anything but coffee from I wake up
until dinner time, 6-7 PM.
~~~
blueprint
So you're repeatedly having coffee on an empty stomach? That can't be good for
you.
~~~
erikbye
Haven't noticed any of the supposed side-effects doing so could cause. For a
while, not eating for hours was also supposedly bad for you. Then fasting
started to show benefits. It turns out traditional dietary advice might not be
worth jack shit.
[https://www.coffeeandhealth.org/topic-overview/coffee-and-
di...](https://www.coffeeandhealth.org/topic-overview/coffee-and-disorders-of-
the-stomach/)
One study found a slight increase in acid reflux when drank on an empty
stomach, a problem I don't have, other than that there does not seem to be any
associations with gastritis, ulcers, or dyspepsia.
~~~
blueprint
Yes, intermittent fasting is said to be quite good for organisms. Maybe a form
of hormesis. I'm unfortunately not in a position to comment much on caffeine's
health effects aside from various interesting and likely true points of
speculation but I find what you shared interesting and do not doubt for a
second that medical science (including nutrition, and immunity) is not
properly understood except by a rare handful who have the ability to see
things whole.
~~~
erikbye
I believe coffee has a lot of beneficial properties, but I have a slight
concern regarding caffeine as it reduces CBF. That might impair cognitive
functions. Supposedly you can mitigate some of the vasoconstriction with
flavonoids.
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/19219847/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/19219847/)
------
emptybits
Observation: Coffee studies often report (in headlines and abstract and body)
consumption in terms of _cups_.
At best, this refers to a standardized 250 ml or 8 oz measuring cup
(unfortunately, still rarely what "a cup of coffee" generally means to those
who read these headlines and adjust behaviour as a result).
At worst, the term is used to allow for ambiguity and variance expected in
self-reporting.
I recognize there are many other variables that are even harder to measure
than beverage volume, like mg of caffeine or diterpenes or antioxidants. But
"cups" just seems so loose.
Related question: Is there a somewhat accurate amateur method of measuring
caffeine content? I vary my beans and roasts and method a fair bit for fun and
taste. e.g. various beans, light vs medium vs dark roasts, varying apparatus,
mass of beans per "cup", filter types, and brewing time. I would like to have
insight into how much caffeine I'm consuming.
~~~
DiabloD3
Ahh, now here comes the fun part. There is no standard.
250ml is 8.5 ounces. Some places in Europe standardized on this.
A cup of anything else is 8 ounces.
A "cup of coffee" (the actual unit) is 6 ounces, and this is the standard
everywhere where 250ml isn't, and we're not in Japan; but even though the US
follows the 6 ounce standard, the USDA considers a cup 8 ounces on their
nutrition table.
Japan has standardized on 200ml (or about 6.7 oz).
What SHOULD be measured is _not_ liquid volume, but bean weight (measured in
grams; even Ameicans measure it in grams when they're the type to weigh it
instead of just throwing ambiguously heaped tablespoons in); and _then_
shifted according to that blend's particular caffeine content (outside of
specialty products with high-caffeine bean variants, caffeine content can vary
about +/\- 50% depending on the origin of the beans (roasting does not effect
caffeine content meaningfully, although the myth lives on)).
------
pixie_
There's enough anecdotal evidence here to fuel a study in it of itself. I'm
surprised there isn't an app out there where you can opt into any number of
studies. Surely there's potential for an app like this.. Anyone want to get
together and build it?
* edit - maybe it's just an app where you like 'Facebook' all your medical history, and post daily diets, health issues like headaches, acne, etc...
All the data is public and accessible by anyone to trend. There would be no
usernames though, everyone just has a guid and all the guids can find people
like themselves and chat with anonymity.
~~~
touristtam
Open for massive fraud as an elective system which might be very damaging for
the endeavor itself and could completely discredit it.
~~~
pixie_
We have an open position for you on the team to use machine learning to root
out fraud ;)
------
dghughes
I only drink one cup per day and I only started when I was in my early 30s so
I guess I'm not getting much out of it.
Some people like me are very sensitive to caffeine. I wonder if we the jittery
ones process caffeine slower and could that be a disadvantage.
Acrylamide due to roasting isn't a great thing either.
Hot liquid ingested every day may be a risk for throat cancer.
[https://www.cancer.org/latest-news/world-health-
organization...](https://www.cancer.org/latest-news/world-health-organization-
says-very-hot-drinks-may-cause-cancer.html)
~~~
Moto7451
Your link’s first paragraph states coffee is usually consumed at temperatures
below the risk threshold. A couple paragraphs later is states that coffee has
been removed from their list of beverages they’re worried about.
~~~
dghughes
But that information seems to change every few years. The acrylamide is the
newest twist created during roasting, even cold brew can't escape acrylamide.
For me, I have to be careful drinking coffee because I have GERD if I drink
too much coffee my throat spasms and at night I cough up stomach acid while
asleep. It gets into my lungs and over time damages lung tissue.
Even for coffee roasters, the people near the coffee are at risk of lung
damage from whatever roasting coffee emits.
[https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/investigations/2017/09/2...](https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/investigations/2017/09/26/cdc-
finds-workers-coffee-facility-wisconsin-increased-respiratory-symptoms-
abnormal-breathing/699422001/)
------
theatraine
I wonder what the health benefits are for different caffeine metabolizers
(i.e. for different CYP1A2 genotypes). The source article only mentions that
slow metabolizers have a higher risk of hypertension, but is that outweighed
by the other benefits?
------
bitL
4 cups of coffee in a row don't do anything to me and adding more makes me
asleep. I guess I am one of those for whom coffee is just one of ways to stay
hydrated and nothing else. Similarly alcohol, it doesn't affect my thoughts
just coordination, I am not more open/brave/socially whatever with it. I guess
I should be a monk...
~~~
maxxxxx
I used to be like that until my 30s but suddenly it changed. Now I can't sleep
if I drink just one cup. It also makes me uncomfortably hyper.
------
spraak
Many people in this thread are sharing that coffee/caffeine doesn't work for
them, and then others are replying that it must not be true, there's
scientific evidence!!11 Look, one scientific study doesn't mean it will work
for everyone. It's very likely that there is plenty of counter evidence
available, as with almost every study. We all live by our own personal
guidance, and that's fine if it doesn't hurt anyone. Coffee or not, it's great
what works for you. But those replying here saying that person's personal
experience mist be wrong, are just rude and ignorant.
~~~
ojbyrne
This isn’t just one study, it’s a meta-analysis of “over 200” studies.
------
saryant
If I drink that much caffeine I get _very_ sensitive to anxiety attacks.
~~~
inDigiNeous
Yeah I used to think anxiety attacks were something I could not get, but then
I got into a stint of drinking 1 (!) cup of coffee daily when I was under
pressure to get some boring work done, and made a habit out of that for maybe
3 months.
During those months, I experienced anxiety attacks for the first time in my
life. I did not realize at first that long term (for me, 3 months) coffee
consumption slowly helped drive myself towards constantly doing more than I
realistically had the energy to do, somehow triggering these very anxietic
episodes couple of times, where I was feeling like I was in danger, it was
hard to breath, and I was panicking, I really didn't know what was happening.
Later I realized coffee did this. There are studies of coffee putting the body
into a state of fight-or-flee constantly, rising the heart rate and making
people very jumpy, so that might explain why this happened.
Also, I've been noticing that drinking coffee tends to over focus my focus on
one task and not see to whole picture, so it is very easy to go in one
direction too far with a project for example, and just start fine tuning
whatever little details come at me, when more better would be to see the big
picture again and change directions.
I can hardly see how coffee is a good thing on a global scale, except for the
work force who want to do stuff that is not otherwise interesting.
------
andr3w321
Drinking decaf ~one week a month is a good way to reset your tolerance
~~~
Fnoord
This doesn't make sense. Caffeine has a half time of 4 hrs (3-7 according to
this source [1] but lets assume 4 for the sake of argument). So if you consume
a cup, in 4 hours, you got 50% of caffeine remaining. If you then drink
another cup, you go from 0,5 to 1,5 and after 4 more hours you are on 0,75
which is 75% of your first dose. We're then 8 hours in the day. 12 hours into
the day you're on 0,375 and at that point you're winding down.
If you'd drink one week a month decaf (assuming you can enjoy the taste. I
dislike it) you get caffeine withdrawal the first day, and the other days you
don't. But as soon as you start consuming coffee again, you also get
withdrawal symptoms because the half time is ~4 hours.
The way I deal with it which is the correct way is limit coffee intake to 2-3
cups a day in the morning/afternoon. None in the evening because it will cause
sleep deprivation.
[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine)
------
tjohns
Personally, I've found drinking that much coffee is very likely to give me
headaches, and has even given me a couple ocular migraines over the years (not
fun). Not to mention making me feel terrible once the caffeine starts to wear
off in the evening.
Add in the caffeine withdrawal afterwards, and I've decided that it's best to
just avoid caffeine altogether. Overall, I feel like I have more energy now...
but it does require being more careful about getting enough sleep.
~~~
wbkang
Haha for me it's the opposite. Caffeine cures my migraine the same way
rizatriptan does. They are both vasoconstrictors and help reduce my throbbing
migraine.
------
GnarfGnarf
Go easy on the coffee. You'll discover it has caused you acid reflux, long
after you can do anything about it.
Also: sugar masks the flavor. Good coffee tastes best with just cream.
------
open-source-ux
There's an excellent, clear summary of this study on the NHS website:
[https://www.nhs.uk/news/food-and-diet/drinking-3-4-cups-
coff...](https://www.nhs.uk/news/food-and-diet/drinking-3-4-cups-coffee-day-
may-have-some-health-benefits/)
------
kakaorka
I feel like I have a real problem with some scientific studies on the human
body, which apparently link things to specific outcomes and later on reverse
those links and sometimes even linking the opposite to the same outcomes. As a
researcher myself, but not in a biological field, I believe more and more that
it is just insanely difficult to understand the complex interactions inside
our bodies. This doesn’t mean that I’m against this type of research, on the
contrary, we need more and more studies.
~~~
Theodores
Right, so it is 11 a.m. - who is for coffee? So I pick up the tray, go down to
the kitchen, make everyone a cup of tea/coffee/defac-coffee and pick up a can
of some fizzy drink for that guy who lives off energy drinks instead of
coffee.
In the kitchen I have a joke with the guy from accounts as well as have a
really positive buy-in for the new 'aggregated accounts' plan. I have some
chat with the cleaning lady, she smiles, I smile. Someone else gets doors for
me, I say please and thank-you. Finally beverages get served by me to my
colleagues. Everyone is happy.
On the way to and from the kitchen I have got the blood circulating, not a
very big walk, certainly not a gym workout, but all moving is good in the
sedentary office world. Yes, it does take a lot of muscles to smile, and just
with the light convo needed to get to the kettle and sink I have had a little
workout. Unlike press-ups I can put my heart into a smile.
So what happens if I am in a mood and can't be bothered to make tea for the
rest of the team? I sneak into the kitchen and make a coffee just for myself.
Or if it is the weekend and I am home alone, with no interaction with people
during the consumption of coffee.
On aggregate I do make coffee and it be a social thing rather than a loner
thing. We are social animals and the act of sharing coffee is probably better
for our well being than whatever is in the coffee. I don't think it is
possible to do studies without the bigger social picture.
So could claims that 'coffee is good for you' stack up, even with the above?
In my anecdata there is also the girl I sit next to that is not in the 'tea
round system'. She makes her own drink, and will tend to have a jogger style
water bottle at hand at all times. She will also make her own infusions -
ginger tea etc, but not a round for everybody. Because she just serves herself
then she is not in the kitchen for as long as me, not needing to converse to
complete the task (no tray). Furthermore, she does not get to greet everyone
in the team, or to have that special thought for them, e.g. mug colour
preference, tea/coffee strength etc.
So, anecdata, but, if coffee and the sharing of coffee is important, then the
claims that 'coffee is good for you' could stack up but it not be
causation/correlation on the caffeine, even if that appears to be the case.
------
eartheaterrr
Can coffee still be more beneficial than harmful if you suffer withdrawal
effects? I have some co-workers who get headaches if they try to have a
morning without coffee.
~~~
shmerl
That's a known thing. Drinking coffee blocks adenosine receptors (which affect
tiredness). In result, they increase in number to compensate that. So if you
stop drinking coffee, the increased number of receptors causes more intense
feeling of tiredness. If you stop drinking coffee for a long time, the number
of receptors adjusts back down.
------
nabla9
previously:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15679522](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15679522)
The relative risk vs coffee consumption curve fist goes below 1.0 (no coffee =
1.0) and reaches minimum around 3-5 cups then starts to increase slowly again.
cardiovascular disease and stroke risk go above 1.0 after 9-10 cups per day.
The study mentions that results may not apply to unfiltered coffee (eg, French
press, Scandinavian boiled, or Turkish/Greek coffee). Other studies have shown
that cholesterol-raising factor in coffee does not pass a paper filter.
NOTE: Cholesterol increasing effect in coffee is not from dietary cholesterol.
It comes from cafestol and kahweol (diterpenes). They seem to have adverse
effect to cholesterol regulation in the body,
[http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/10.1146/annurev.nutr.17.1.3...](http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/10.1146/annurev.nutr.17.1.305)
------
polskibus
Consider supplementing drinking coffee with taking l-theanine. You can read
more about the benefits at
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/wiki/beginners/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/wiki/beginners/)
Magnesium replenishment also helps, esp. with >2 cups of coffee / day.
~~~
inDigiNeous
L-Theanine is great when combining with coffee, but at least for me when I've
experiment with this combination, if doing it routinely, it really can start
to deplete maybe the serotonin levels or something in my brain, because I
start to feel more dull in a way, it's hard to describe, it's kinda like this
slight fuzziness.
Just for more info, I've been experimenting with 200 mg of L-theanine combined
with one cup of coffee. Not something I would take in long periods, but
definitely useful for those stints where you just have to get something done
and need the stimulants.
L-theanine is good also for relaxation alone, and calming the nerves down, I
sometimes take it by itself if I feel too anxious also.
~~~
polskibus
That's interesting, your findings are contrary to what's generally reported. I
haven't found data confirming any negative side effects for l-theanine
including prolonged use. I suppose it all depends on an individual and dosage
of all stimulants.
~~~
inDigiNeous
Yeah, it's interesting to hear that people have no side effect. It's not
anything really substantial, but there is definitely some side-effect. I'm
used to being really sensitive to any substances though, for example I
couldn't drink 3 cups of coffee a day, that would drive me totally hyper.
But after all, that calming effect has to come from somewhere with L-theanine.
------
bschwindHN
We seem way too focused on whether coffee is good or bad for our health.
All I know is it tastes fucking delicious, it makes me feel good, and we've
been drinking it for generations. If I die earlier because of it, then so be
it. At least I'll have had an enjoyable coffee-drinking life.
~~~
DanBC
> If I die earlier because of it, then so be it. At least I'll have had an
> enjoyable coffee-drinking life.
On the other hand if coffee drinking causes strokes you could live for years
with severe impairment.
~~~
bschwindHN
I'll take my chances and just not worry about it :)
I don't think I've ever heard of a person in old age lamenting, "If only I
hadn't enjoyed coffee so much!"
Cigarettes on the other hand...the effects of those are a lot more clear-cut.
------
maxxxxx
I don't know. When I drink more than 2 cups my sleep suffers and even my
personality changes. I get pretty hyper and less patient. With my girlfriend I
can tell immediately whether she has had coffee just from the way she talks.
~~~
toomuchtodo
Try to cut off the caffeine consumption by 3pm and your sleep should not
suffer (based on the half life of caffeine and average human adult body
weight).
Disclaimer: I consume ~4 cups of coffee per day between 8am and 3pm and get ~8
hours of sleep per night.
~~~
enthalpyx
The CYP1A2 gene affects how quickly you metabolize caffeine. Stopping at 3pm
may not be enough.
~~~
toomuchtodo
I’ll check my CYP1A2 SNPs on 23andme in the AM and report back.
~~~
35bge57dtjku
I'm not sure if that's sarcasm or not. Maybe I'm just not hip.
~~~
toomuchtodo
Not sarcasm at all. Last time I checked, 23andme reports if you’re a fast or
slow caffeine metabolizer. I just don’t recall offhand which I am.
------
biggc
How big is a "cup" of coffee in this study?
~~~
xellisx
Typically my "cup" measures 2 cups based on the coffee pot.
------
epx
I hope 10 cups a day are ok :)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
On Elitism - unignorant
http://www.stanford.edu/%7Epgbovine/on-elitism.htm
======
tokenadult
The blogger doth protest too much, methinks. We learn all about his academic
credentials almost as soon as the blog post begins, but don't hear anything
about his real-world accomplishments beyond attending great schools.
What does everyone think of the blogger's academics page?
<http://www.stanford.edu/~pgbovine/academic.htm>
Disclaimer: I don't know the blogger, and as far as I know I don't know any of
his professional colleagues or classmates from any era. I'm not competent to
judge accomplishments in the domain of computer science, but I try to pick up
nuances from English writing, just as does any other reader of English.
~~~
catzaa
That is unfortunately true.
There is this old joke:
Q: How do you know someone is from MIT {Stanford, Havard, ...}?
A: He tells you.
~~~
jhancock
The refined version for those from Harvard is:
Q: Where did you go to school?
A: Boston.
Q: uhh, where in Boston?
A: Harvard.
They make you draw it out of them. I have found at least three types of people
that respond in this manner:
1 - The person that was raised elite since birth and really doesn't care at
all what you think about him. So him dragging it out is him avoiding the
question and hoping you'll learn not to pry.
2 - The person that is tired of being identified with this standard
questioning. So him dragging it out is somewhere in the middle. He can use it
to his advantage when needed but for the most part doesn't want to be
identified in this way.
3 - The snob.
~~~
pgbovine
the motivation for people i know to do that is less disingenuous ...
4 - if you say that you went to Harvard (or another well-known university),
lots of people automatically cringe and think "ugh this guy must be a snob!",
so if you're really not a snob, then the reason for avoiding specifics is so
that people don't pre-judge upon first impressions.
the responses to my article sort of exemplifies this phenomenon. lots of
readers didn't like how i 'name-dropped' where i attended school ... i was
mentioning where i went to school because it's relevant for the point i'm
making in my article, not merely to show off or brag.
oftentimes i don't tell people where i went to school because i don't want to
automatically be viewed as a snob on first impressions.
------
joe_the_user
I'm sorry but this isn't a new one for sociology...
_I've observed that some of the people who display the greatest degrees of
elitism and snobbery are those who are technically skilled in their given area
of expertise but who do not necessarily have the most reputable externally-
recognizable marks of status._
Indeed. Those who _need to display_ elitism are those who aren't
_automatically accepted as elite_. Similarly, those who are naturally accepted
as elite, don't need make as much of an effort to display their eliteness.
This is so established that the act of _not_ attempting to show one's
eliteness is often subtler a mark of greater eliteness. And this is the basic
conundrum of elitism: how the 'old guard' defends itself against the arriviste
etc.
I'd suggest a reading of De Tocqueville, Veblen and modern signalling theory.
~~~
zackattack
Can you recommend a good book on modern signalling theory?
~~~
joe_the_user
What I have been reading recently is "Game Theory Evolving" by Herbert Gintis.
The Wikipedia articles on signaling theory and evolutionary game theory are
useful too.
------
xiaoma
> _"The smartest kids in the class had reputable externally-recognizable marks
> of status --- their top-ranked grades on exams and homeworks --- and thus
> did not need to assert their intelligence."_
Having the top grades on exams and _homework_ doesn't in any way demonstrate
that those kids are the smartest in the class. Grades are correlated with
intelligence to some degree, but much more strongly correlated with work-ethic
and compliance.
~~~
scott_s
If think you replace "smartest" with "most successful", the point he's trying
to make does not change.
~~~
Confusion
Which is still a ridiculous point: A/A+ students are not necessarily smarter,
more successful, more intelligent, whatever-you-want-to-call-it than B+/A-
students. His sole defense of that assertion is
_if you're so damn smart, wouldn't it take you just slightly more effort to
get an A_
which I cannot characterize as anything else but a total lack of any sense of
what someone may want to do with his time, other than obtain high grades,
combined with the unfounded accusation that they all consider themselves
capable of doing better.
He completely rules out the possibility that out of numbers 5 through 15 out
of a 100, five may rather want to spend their time, let's say, starting a
company, practicing a sport or contributing code to some open source project.
That's when the real problem shows it's ugly head: they are made to feel like
they have to excuse themselves for their grades, as anything below 'perfect'
is always questioned, as the article did: "why don't you get higher grades?"
For me, the answer really was exactly as he says: because I have a fucking
life out of school. However, the intention of that answer wasn't to play down
the grades of others or to assert my intelligence. I won't deny they usually
also have a life out of school. The intention was purely and solely: to answer
the question that everyone keeps asking. I've given that answer so many times
I can only think of it shouted with the expletive in it. And then grade-
obsessed nitwits like this guy throw a hissy fit because they think I'm trying
to trump them. No, I don't bloody care about trumping you. If I cared, I would
spend my time trying to score higher grades, so I'd get into that prestigious
university. I'm not sure I would succeed, but the point is: I'm not even
trying to best you. God, guys like this still piss me off. They don't want to
accept the fact that there may have been guys that could outdo them, but
didn't bother.
~~~
scott_s
A/A+ students are, by definition, more successful at school than B+/A-
students. That's the only sense of the phrase I meant it in.
~~~
omgsean
"A/A+ students are, by definition, more successful at school than B+/A-
students. That's the only sense of the phrase I meant it in."
More successful in school. There is very little value in getting high grades
until the later years of high school. Working hard in middle school is a waste
of time. The smartest kids would do the minimum amount of work to pass their
classes and ensure they have a solid understanding of the material. Especially
when you look back and remember how much of the middle school curriculum
involved drawing bubble letters and pasting printed photos on to Bristol
board.
~~~
ghshephard
Really? Walk through the curriculum starting around the 3rd grade onwards - It
basically sets up a foundation for future learning in all disciplines.
Reading, Writing, Arithmetic - I remember the precise instant (3rd grade) that
I was introduced to the concept of a negative number. It blew my mind. And
science classes theory in seventh and eights grade were awesome - if I hadn't
been grinding I probably would have never learned about umbra's and penumbras,
angle of reflection, etc... as well I did.
I think you get out of any experience (Sports, School, Start Ups) what you put
into it. And I have to agree - the entire point of the article, that people
who haven't been able to demonstrate "success" in school, do tend to be a bit
more defensive than those who have. I don't know if this applies to other
fields (Sports, Startups) - but it's certainly seen in schools with regards to
academic achievement. (BTW, We can all agree to hate the valedectorian who not
only graduated with a perfect 4.0 GPA, but also spent close to 30% of her
final two years of high school traveling Europe, preparing for the winter
olympics, and participating in the debate club)
------
psyklic
The author writes about himself, "Coming from two universities with world-
renowned Computer Science departments (MIT and Stanford) and having worked at
a top-tier software company (Google) as well as at several less high-profile
companies ..."
Meaning, of course, that he is not elitist -- he just had to share these
crucial facts about himself.
~~~
numair
I think the tide has really turned against name-brand institutions, leaving
people such as the author in a position where they feel they have to defend
themselves and their "prestige." This manifests itself in some peculiar ways,
as we can see from this piece...
~~~
rdr
agreed, university reputation matters a lot less nowadays than it did in the
previous generation ... nowadays anyone with a good idea can start up a tech
company and get rich. nobody cares about ur college name
------
codexon
It is probably true that people who scholastic reputation will try to make up
for it in other ways. However the problem is that there may be too much
authority placed in these usual standards of achievements.
Philip forgets that people with academic credentials like himself are being
smug when they complain about others. If your academic credentials represent
you so well, why should it bother you if someone is simply acting?
Another disingenuous behavior he describes is hiding that you went to a
reputable school like Harvard.
The reason people are afraid of living up to "artificially higher"
expectations is because their school's reputation really is artificially high.
What these type of people want is to have the "Harvard" reputation when it
suits them, and the average Joe culpability should they ever fail. They want
to further perpetuate the image of superiority that Harvard/Stanford entails
without letting the public correct their perception that going to one of these
top schools does not make you a Godly Genius.
~~~
scott_s
I don't think hiding you went to a prestigious school has to be disingenuous.
I can be, but it doesn't have to be.
I have a purple belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. This is a mid-level rank, but
it's also the point where a competitor is considered advanced. In tournaments
that don't use belt level but Novice, Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced, I
compete Advanced. If I talk to a stranger about BJJ, I never start out with "I
have a purple belt." I am going out of my way to avoid sounding like a
braggart. I am not worried about failing to live up to my rank, but I am
worried about appearing like a jerk.
~~~
codexon
What you are saying is completely different from someone asking you "What
college did you go to", and responding vaguely "Boston" when most people just
say the name of the school.
~~~
pgbovine
yes, "Boston" would be a disingenuous reply to "What college did you go to".
But it would _not_ be a disingenuous reply to "Where did you attend college?"
Some people I know say "in China" or "in Canada" ... "in Boston" is just as
legit of an answer, and often one that makes people not roll their eyes at you
nearly as much as if you say "HAHHHHHHH-VARD!"
~~~
codexon
Its also customary to say which college you attended if they ask you "where".
I also don't know anyone that says HAHHHHHHH-VARD, STANNNN-FAHD or M-AHH-
TTTTT. This pseudo-snobbery is all in your head.
If you keep hiding the fact that you are from a top school in order to
dissociate fallibility with Stanford, this sort of sentiment will continue.
~~~
scott_s
You guessed that he avoids mentioning his school by name to avoid the high
expectations along with it. To operate that this guess has to be true is, at
best, disingenuous.
~~~
codexon
This is not a guess. This is factual evidence as publicly admitted by many
people like Conan O'Brien.
And I should add that I also went to a top school, so its not like I am making
this stuff up.
~~~
scott_s
That's _anecdotal evidence_ , and you're assuming it also applies to this
person.
~~~
elblanco
I'm going to go out on a limb here and theorize that, since the start of this
topic you've consistently taken Mr. Guo's side, pedantically pointing out
rules and etiquette, deflecting from what he actually said, not responding to
actual quotes from his writings and posts and your general literal mindedness,
that you are indeed one of the name-brand school graduates that he feels is
victimized by the boorish snobbishness of the tier-1+n school grads.
Spank me if I'm wrong. But it's the only thing that adds up.
Either that or you are a tier-1+n school grad who's been guilt tripped by this
article into rethinking your prior maltreatment of the elite school kids.
~~~
scott_s
This is old by now, but you should be able to see from my profile that I am at
a large, middle-of-the-road state school. Note that I haven't actually
defended the authors position, only clarified what he said. I'm not sure if I
agree with his position. But I've seen very little discussion on what he
actually said. I've spent all of my time explaining what he did and did not
say. I've spent no time (that I can think of) defending the position he took.
I also like to avoid long, drawn on point-by-point posts, and try to keep
things focused by responding to a person's thesis.
Pointing out etiquette has nothing to do with this article, and everything to
do with liking HN as a place for civil discussion.
------
rauljara
I think it is true that the most insecure tend to exhibit the most elitism;
elitism being defined as going out of your way to put down another group you
consider inferior. The author, however, goes out of his way to condemn this
sort of elitism, basically succumbing to the same elitism he is condemning.
Just as I'm basically doing, going out of my way to write this comment. I
think the thing to realize is that comparing yourself to others in a
better/worse than relationship is a pretty human thing to do, even if it isn't
good. It should be avoided and maybe even corrected, but it shouldn't be
condemned or used as a way to put people down, lest you succumb to it
yourself.
------
Confusion
People from reputable universities don't need to vocally assert their
capabilities, because the mere mention of their university is enough for
people to acknowledge their capabilities. On the other hand, people from more
obscure universities need to vocally assert their skills and experience in
order to obtain the same recognition of their capabilities. This is just a
plain fact of society and asserting your skills and experience is _not in any
way_ arrogant or elitist behavior. He completely confuses being vocal about
your capabilities with vocally downplaying the capabilities of others, for
instance the capabilities of people from reputable universities. He seems
completely unaware that people can feel the need to assert their capabilities
without in any way wanting or trying to downplay the capabilities of others.
------
sofal
I haven't noticed anything to suggest that elitism is more prevalent among
those without elite credentials. Two distinguished professors from my school
come to mind. Both of them have very impressive track records and yet both of
them are on opposite ends of the arrogance spectrum.
I think it comes down to how comfortable you are with yourself. If you
constantly wish you were higher up in the food chain, there's a good chance
you are an elitist, and getting elite credentials likely won't satisfy you
anyway.
------
parse_tree
The author sounds like a real jackass. Who else would be so concerned with the
alma mater, "intelligence", or "technical skill" of other people that they
feel the need to write an article about it.
------
dill_day
When you are content to be simply yourself
and don't compare or compete,
everybody will respect you.
\-- Lao Tzu
~~~
Eliezer
When everybody respects you,
Without need for you to compare or compete,
You will be content to be simply yourself.
\-- Eliezer Yudkowsky (that's right - ELIEZER YUDKOWSKY)
------
daveying99
I think the guy has some smart points. But the fact that he has the MIT dome
picture on his blog counters the point that if you're a high achiever from a
top-tiered university, you don't need to show external signs of achievement...
~~~
zackattack
I imagine that when you go to a place like MIT where life is like "getting
kicked in the balls repeatedly", your alma mater becomes an important part of
your identity.
~~~
jgrant27
This gave me a good laugh !
These same people also tend to bring this mind set with them to wherever it is
they end up working. They seem to have a huge need to "kick others in the
balls repeatedly" to feel better than others.
Have you ever noticed how no matter what topic(it could even be about
fingernail clippings) is being discussed with these types the conversation
almost always degrades into them having to make repeated points to prove that
they are right and you are wrong. Apparently this indoctrinated part of their
identity is what they call 'education'. I guess they also need this to justify
the 100-200k of debt they have after graduation and the calls they will
receive for the rest of their life from their alma mater each year for
donations.
------
fogus
Unfortunately where I went to middle/high school there was very little elitism
built around GPA and test scores. However, everyone just instinctively knew
that the most dangerous bullies were _not_ the most popular kids, but instead
the kids just below them in the social heirarchy. The top tier were generally
secure in themselves, but those below were always looking for an edge to get
into the pantheon.
~~~
zackattack
Indeed, pg addresses this in his essay on why nerds are unpopular in school.
Here's my question: does bullying ever give an edge into the pantheon?
~~~
fogus
No. But that never stopped those guys from bullying. If they understood this
then they may have been at the top.
------
spiralhead
Interesting article but I am not convinced outward expressions of elitism have
much of a correlation with one's academic background. In my experience, the
most talented and creative individuals are modest, hard working and often
quiet while those lacking demonstrable talent are the ones who make the most
noise. I'd wager talent has little to no correlation with academic background.
------
richardw
What's the motivation for writing the article?
To me, there's always some way to feel superior by pointing fingers. I think
he's driving his own brand of elitism.
(Somebody please accuse me of the same thing, and let's see if we can
recursively create a singularity)
~~~
drats
>What's the motivation for writing the article? Well, he managed to name-drop
Stanford, MIT and Google in a short article with the nutritional value of
cardboard. Everyone knows that after the first job or two flashing a ivy-
league CV around it starts to matter what you have achieved not where you
went.
~~~
kburn
funny
------
invisible
What I find truly misleading is that he labels "name-brand universities" as a
form of adult elitism. He then goes on to explain that it is actually those
that did not attend the best schools that are outwardly elite. I have heard
stories of name-brand universities' alumni not even giving those outside of
the best schools the time of day.
Perhaps there is a cockiness to those that strive to prove themselves beyond
grades and diplomas. Sure. However, I'd heavily argue that this is not
elitism. Elitism requires grouping with those of similar backgrounds (e.g.
Harvard, Yale, MIT, whatever). You cannot be an elitist unless you claim
alumni from only your school - or brand of schools - are better than others.
The author does mention that he went to a FEW prestigious schools and so
doesn't follow his own advice on the matter.
(Elitism can also be displayed by a position that only wealthy are better [1].
This unfortunately may plague these so-called name brand schools.)
So, go be cocky and stop name dropping your prestigious university (or giving
said university/universities more weight). Then you'll stop being an elitist,
but you might just improve your former school's brand...
[1]: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elitism>
------
jgrant27
Grades are a sign of intelligence ?
This could simply be a student's willingness to parrot whatever answers or
theory a teacher would like to hear. Ever notice that often when a student
outdoes his teacher or his teacher's favorite 'pets' then he is down-graded ?
The world's best scientists, mathematicians, physicists have all experienced
this especially when their thinking was about to improve on and/or replace the
old theories that their professors used for large grant money.
Maybe there was a good reason that it was a crime in Socrates day for teachers
to accept money from students. Does financial incentive corrupt education
outright ?
"Prestigious" schools also deny those that need tuition most when the whole
point of attending is to gain something(knowledge etc.) that they do not
already possess. These schools also pride themselves on cultural diversity but
what about the classicism that defines their admissions ? Why should a decent
degree run a student into 100-200k of debt after graduation ? Less wealthy
countries provide comparable and even better education for free. Why ?
------
petercooper
In _The Psychology of Persuasion_ the author looks at how the appearance of
authority yields big results: [http://www.takebackyourbrain.com/2007/the-
psychology-of-pers...](http://www.takebackyourbrain.com/2007/the-psychology-
of-persuasion-authority/) \- The disconnect, then, is that confidence and
arrogance are often interpreted as authority.
------
pgbovine
hi everyone, this is the author --- wow, i totally didn't expect a random rant
of mine to be posted on hacker news :) after monitoring comments for a few
hours, i finally had to sign up for an account.
First off, I should mention the context of my article: I wrote that
(admittedly not so well-written) article from personal observations I made of
technical people in various fields working in various jobs at various
companies (I don't want to name drop any further, heh). It was just my
personal observation that given two people in the same exact job position WITH
EQUAL INTELLIGENCE/SKILLS/EXPERIENCE/ETC., the one who went to a lesser-known
university was usually more vocal about announcing his/her skills and, in a
way, disparaging of people from so-called name-brand schools.
Sorry I didn't intend to make any sorts of value judgments as to how
university reputation correlates with intelligence, likelihood of success,
etc.
Now I'm gonna have some fun responding to other people's comments :)
~~~
alexgartrell
Without passing any judgement whatsoever, I'm going to leave this link here :)
[http://www.stanford.edu/~pgbovine/advantages-of-name-
brand-s...](http://www.stanford.edu/~pgbovine/advantages-of-name-brand-
school.htm)
~~~
elblanco
Ugh, finally managed to read most of the article at the link. I would have
preferred putting my hand in my garbage disposal.
It's an absolutely accurate portrayal of what's wrong in the world with
respect to the reputation that top-tier schools have and the practices of top-
tier corporations. Mr. Guo, in a few areas of self-reflection attempts to
strike a reasonable tone in the parts that don't sound like a brochure for
these name branded schools. But then we get to the section titled, _"Take-home
messages if you went to a normal, lesser-known university"_ (actually the
title, I'm not making it up) and it's a fast ride downhill from there.
This kind of trite, patronizing, condescension is hard to find out in the
public arena. This honest externalization from an elite is only confirmation
of all the worst fears of what these folks are really thinking about you. The
joy of it is not that Mr. Guo rails against the practices he so accurately
describes but that he shrugs his shoulders, utters "just accept your station
in life _state-school_ ", and ends his piece with a section so unbelievably
arrogant, so paternal...we get this little pat on the head "be realistic
_state-school_ , you could always open some rinky-dink business in some small
town that's never heard of Google".
Here, I'll not paraphrase anymore, I'll just quote:
_"If you are like the vast majority of people who didn't attend a name-brand
university, then I want to stress the importance of perspective. Realize that
the deck is stacked against you...To try to buck the system will likely result
in disappointment and dejection."_
_"Another aspect of perspective is the importance of realism. It's healthy to
have dreams, but you must at the same time have a realistic career plan."_
_"Being realistic doesn't mean being complacent, though. For instance,
starting a small local business is a great outlet for those who are aspiring
entrepreneurs. If you are the town expert on Topic X, then you can form a
small business without fear that some Ivy League brat will infringe on your
local market."_
Are you kidding me with this "why even try, you'll just end up disappointed"
rubbish?
~~~
pgbovine
thanks for the comments ... you have a good point regarding some of the
passages, i'll take them down soon or try to re-work them.
i'm glad that you understood the main purpose of that article, which is to
highlight what i've observed about top-tier schools and the hiring practices
of certain big corporations.
however, i really don't mean to sound like i'm an advertising brochure for
those schools, because i'm definitely not. again, i'm just trying to share the
experiences i've heard from my friends (who went to all different types of
schools) with regards to their job hunting process.
in part, i'm trying to express some of the frustrations that people have
relayed to me because they were definitely worthy of certain positions but got
passed up due to their lack of so-called name-brand credentials. but i see
that i've done a bad job at doing that, since i drew such negative criticism
due to my tone ;)
please email me personally if you'd like to give me more feedback on how i
could emphasize the more objective points of that article without sounding
condescending. thanks.
~~~
elblanco
I wouldn't change it at all. I think you were being honest, which is
commendable. It's a perfect example of the attitude that permeates top-level
schools, employers and social organizations. An attitude most elites won't
admit to. Yet we of the penny seats in life face it every day. The honesty,
while infuriating, is refreshing. It's not that you were quietly or subtly
ignoring those from generic schools, but that you were out and out saying what
we know you are thinking "don't bother competing, you can't hang with us".
It's the academic and professional version of the kind of trash talk you might
hear at an inner city pick-up basketball game or an 8-mile rap battle. It's
starts with why the elite are the best, and what being the best means, and
ends with why the non-elites can't be part of this group and what they should
do about it. You just had fewer insults about my mother, but the content was
the same.
It's a challenge, not much different than the challenges presented by elites
to non-elites in every capacity of life.
I suspect that much of what you see in the other article is merely the
frustrated result of having to work just as hard as the elite guy for
schooling, but then also having to beat, kick and claw their way through even
minor interactions because they are being treated like a child just like in
the example you provided in the original version of this article. It's a
vicious cycle that creates a bad environment for everyone.
------
JeremyChase
I think the author is in error to assume that all people attend elite schools
for the same reasons. Some people are honestly the best in their field and
will gravitate to the best schools, others simply desire the best pedigree,
and some people simply want to go to the best school they can.
I don't think that Ivy alumni are hesitant to name drop their school. Some are
smug; most aren't. As I have gotten further from college the conversations
generally swing toward what you are doing, rather than where you went.
The generalization about 2nd tier students is also too broad. My CS degree is
from a 2nd tier school (RIT 01), and when talking with others from similar
schools it seems like there is occasionally an elitist; but it isn't that
common.
There are plenty of people who are elitist because they have something to
prove. They may have gone to a great school, or no school at all. In the end
it doesn't matter; they are simply annoying.
------
fburnaby
This is a fun paradox: someone who graduated from {MIT, Harvard, etc.} can't
say they did, since it would be elitist. They can stop mentioning their _Alma
mater_ when they realize that it sounds elitist to mention it. But then it
just seems like they're _not_ mentioning it, as a way of signaling their lack
of need to mention it (their status is obvious). Once you graduate from any of
these schools, there's no way not to sound elitist when asked where you went
to school. You're trapped.
PS - This, of course, doesn't mean someone graduating from these schools isn't
elitist. It's just that the social exchange in which they tell you their _Alma
mater_ doesn't give you any information in regards to their elitism.
------
xilun
Is it a sort of oxymoron exercise or something?
------
enthalpyx
Wouldn't it be great if we could get to the point where the opinion of others
didn't matter so much?
~~~
sofal
The opinions of people who have resources are always going to matter. That in
itself is not a bad thing. The bad thing is ill-informed opinions.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
A Massive Impact Crater Has Been Detected Beneath Greenland’s Ice Sheet - mr_tyzic
https://gizmodo.com/a-massive-impact-crater-has-been-detected-beneath-green-1830437095
======
pelagic_sky
Here's a link to the study for those who do not want to go to Gizmodo.
[http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/4/11/eaar8173](http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/4/11/eaar8173)
~~~
greenyoda
Also, an ongoing discussion of yesterday's article in Science:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18458138](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18458138)
------
duxup
>Some of the minerals they analyzed exhibited the telltale characteristics of
a catastrophic impact, such as shocked quartz grains and other impact-related
grains, such as glass.
Forgive me for my poor terminology here as this isn't my area.
Considering they found the signs of the impact, and other impacts like the
Chicxulub Crater have left similar debris / signs in soil samples.
Are we at the point now where we can take soil samples in an area and without
finding a creator see that there was a large impact somewhere (near or far)
around a specific time based on the soil date?
------
wanderr
pelagic_sky's link to the study is useful, I'm not sure why their comment is
dead:
[http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/4/11/eaar8173](http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/4/11/eaar8173)
~~~
colanderman
Shadowbanned with only 9 karma and only constructive comments so far, ouch. I
vouched for their posts, but damn that's a harsh welcome to HN. @dang, maybe
some spam-bot detector is a little too sensitive?
~~~
jandrese
New accounts with short posts containing outside links are probably a red flag
to spam heuristics.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Secure alternatives to email? - kevinfat
What current attempts are there to replace email with something secure rather than encryption slapped on after the fact like with email? Desirable properties would be like, for example, Google Wave had a federated model which thus allows you to run your own server which gets around the problem of the feds backdooring web based encrypted solutions like Lavabit.
======
jaredklewis
Email, like Google Wave, already is a federated model and you can indeed run
it on your own server. Problem it's not practical for people to run servers
24/7 from their home Internet connections. You can remove this burden from
people by having a company that hosts everyone's in a data center, but then
we're right back at the same place as email: if you get an NSL you have to
comply or go under.
So decentralized might be a better way to go. Have you tried
[https://bitmessage.org/](https://bitmessage.org/) ?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
With New Browser Tech, Apple Preserves Privacy and Google Preserves Trackers - alwillis
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/06/with-new-browser-tech-apple-preserves-privacy-google-preserves-trackers
======
alwillis
Not sure why we should be surprised--invasive ads seem core to Google's
business model.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Feedback on My Side-Project - samuraikjak
https://pluto.landen.co/
======
samuraikjak
Any feedback, good or bad is appreciated
Was the idea clear?
Does it make sense?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Common Lisp on Heroku - sgrove
https://github.com/mtravers/heroku-cl-example
======
sgrove
Although the move to the cedar stack introduced a lot of complexity, Heroku's
flexibility is really starting to shine through - I've seen work on a
smalltalk buildpack as well.
Long-term this trend is only going to accelerate, where we can _assume_ an
app-receptacle (lxc-containers, heroku's 'app', etc.) is setup properly out of
the box. There are almost no downsides to this when executed well on the
provider's side, and infinite upsides.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Channels, Concurrency, Cores: A New Concurrent ML Implementation (2017) [video] - espeed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IcI6sl5oBc
======
bjoli
Not only that, but guile just got a 2-4x speedup in the 2.9 branch (what will
become guile 3).
It is a really nice scheme implementation and very capable. The stuff the guix
people have done is amazing!
Concurrent ML is my favourite way of writing multi threaded parallel programs.
It is a bliss! One can say that reagents in multidirectional ocaml is another
step downwards in that it in most regards generalises CNL, but in its base
form it is not as simple to work with.
Guile fibers is amazing to work with, and has good repl integration. The
performance I am able to get out of it is nothing short of amazing.
~~~
dman
What are you using it for? Is any of the work publicly available?
~~~
bjoli
I have started using it to do every single task that I would previously use
threads for, and for a lot of other things that I would otherwise have done
sequentially.
Two days ago I made my own very shitty static site generator parallel using
fibers.
I have a POC for a irc-like server with proof-of-work to send messages
depending on current message throughput. (Not online yet)
I am not really a programmer, so I mostly do stupid things with it. I made my
smart home server (written by me, using ZigBee to communicate with devices)
scale to thousands of parallel authenticated connections. Just for fun (or at
least to be able to say that my WiFi and ZigBee dongle gave up before my own
ZigBee controller software did).
I have even used it for fully cooperative multitasking (by setting the "Hz" in
guile-fibers to 0).
------
a-nikolaev
The speaker's article on the topic:
[https://wingolog.org/archives/2017/06/29/a-new-concurrent-
ml](https://wingolog.org/archives/2017/06/29/a-new-concurrent-ml)
------
sctb
Discussions on Andy's related blog posts:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14664150](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14664150)
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17083447](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17083447)
------
jules
How does this compare to Reagents? If I understand correctly, Reagents are the
successor of Concurrent ML.
[http://kcsrk.info/ocaml/multicore/2016/06/11/lock-
free/](http://kcsrk.info/ocaml/multicore/2016/06/11/lock-free/)
~~~
bjoli
Reagents generalise CML, but is also not as opinionated in that it is more a
set of building blocks that can be used in many different ways. It gives you
more flexibility, but at the cost of having to do a bit more yourself.
Reagents are more comparable to STM I would say, even though it is slightly
less expressive in some areas, but on the other hand is always lock-free.
~~~
jules
Apparently I also answered my own question a year ago as a comment on the
associated blog post:
Reagents do generalise CML. The main difference is that CML only allows you to
combine operations with select (op1 OR op2) while Reagents also allow you to
combine operations into a transaction (op1 AND op2 for independent operations
and op1 THEN op2 for dependent ones). Reagents are lightweight in that the
library analyses the combined operation and then figures out an efficient CAS
scheme to execute it. Reagents also include some more low level operations,
such as CAS as a reagent. -- [https://wingolog.org/archives/2017/06/29/a-new-
concurrent-ml...](https://wingolog.org/archives/2017/06/29/a-new-concurrent-
ml#e65f4a9c7419cf15c71a58df4786a1a15f8066e9)
I hope that's correct...
> Reagents are more comparable to STM I would say, even though it is slightly
> less expressive in some areas, but on the other hand is always lock-free.
What is the difference in expressiveness between STM and Reagents? Is it that
STM provides monadic bind, whereas Reagents only provide applicative, i.e.
Reagents cannot dynamically decide to update different locations based on
values read in the transaction?
~~~
bjoli
Well, after having used reagents I have found that for most things so use it
to more or less implement CML anyway. I have never been limited by the CML
way, but I do appreciate the power that reagents give you.
In comparing STM and reagents I will probably just regurgitate what Aaron
Turin says in his paper "Reagents: Expressing and Composing Fine-grained
Concurrency" which you can find using a short Google. I only seem to be able
to copy the Google link, so you will have to Google it yourself.
------
jacinabox
I just want to say that I'm so glad people are developing concurrent
languages. The day that concurrency became of paramount importance to
computing, all of the old languages became obsolete! That's also why we have
Go; goroutines are a major innovation upon threads.
~~~
pjmlp
Modula-2 already had co-routines in 1978.
Concurrent Pascal had them in 1976.
And there are plenty of other examples gaining digital dust.
~~~
bakul
Concurrent pascal didn't allow unsafe concurrent access to shared data
structures. Go _allows_ safe concurrent access but doesn't _stop_ such access.
Its authors encourage people to use channels but this sharing is intrinsic --
one can start a nested function as a concurrent goroutine & it has full
concurrent access to its environment. Go tools can check for race conditions
but ideally such support should be in the language itself. So in a sense Go is
worse than Concurrent Pascal for the main feature it touts!
~~~
teamfrizz
allows and doesn't stop are the same thing.
~~~
kazinator
Maybe OP means "allows safe concurrent access but doesn't stop unsafe
concurrent access".
~~~
espeed
And that capabilities model is one of the big differences in Pony and was the
key to achieving Pony's parallel lock-free _provably correct_ concurrency
model.
Most lang/system capability models (including Go's) are open from the start --
where anyone can do anything -- and then when designing the lang/system you
try to restrict access between some things at some of the time, but this gets
messy fast and it's hard to get right and thus it's almost never optimal.
So rather than trying to start with an open model that's inherently flawed by
definition, Pony flips the model on its head and begins from the perspective
that everything is denied unless specified. You would say Pony has a _deny-
first_ capabilities model, which you can see explicitly defined here in Pony's
capabilities matrix...
[https://soyyomakesgames.wordpress.com/2016/10/10/ponys-
capab...](https://soyyomakesgames.wordpress.com/2016/10/10/ponys-capabilities-
made-simple/)
And if you listen to Sylvan's talks, he is emphatic that solving the
_capabilities problem_ upfront was key that made everything else possible. All
the other cool stuff you hear about in Pony like the provably correct runtime
and finally achieving something approaching Hewitt's elusive Actor model
that's been _theoretically true_ for 40 years but never fully realized. Well
the key to solving that mystery and unlocking the door was to take a new view
on the capabilities model and building everything off that from the start.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Airbus Beluga XL - Tomte
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_Beluga_XL
======
ArmandGrillet
We can see one landing from the office I work in once in a while, it really
looks like a flying whale over Hamburg.
~~~
anpat
Always loved to watch it flying over the city. My old office in emporio
offered some of the best views of beautiful HH.
------
nabla9
If I had extra money, I would buy one of those and make it into a 'vomit
comet' and sell tickets.
All that empty space inside to move in zero G would be fun. Just add some
padding and nets to avoid injuries.
~~~
benhurmarcel
It's not pressurized
~~~
t0mas88
That's fine upto 15,000 ft for a maximum of 30 minutes according to aviation
regulations. So depending on how you do your vomiting it may work :-)
~~~
greglindahl
The top of a Vomit Comet parabola is a lot higher than 15,000 feet. Having
that as a ceiling is going to shorten the zero-g time a lot.
~~~
imglorp
Not a problem, just issue each person a little O2 pony bottle and nasal
cannula. At 2 lpm should be plenty for a 30m fun ride.
------
FireBeyond
Tangential: one of the problems with Wikipedia - either help people write so
that time isn't an issue, or have people who look for things and edit.
So much of this article refers to 2017 as being in the future.
~~~
perl4ever
Seems fine to me - what is annoying is an old article where you can't pin down
when it was written. This way at least people can see that updating is needed.
------
mrtksn
Why these planes remain specialists equipment and not widely adopted by the
logistics industry? Are they very inefficient?
~~~
mechhacker
I took a brief look and these planes are unpressurized.
This is opposite of the typical cargo planes, which often are older passenger
planes or derived types that still have cabin pressurization.
It depends on what you're delivering. For the large airplane parts they are
designed for, pressurization isn't needed.
~~~
nuccy
Beluga XL has cargo space volume 2209 m^3, while An-225 Mriya has 1300 m^3
(pressurized), cargo weight is 53 and 189 tonnes, respectively. So you need a
big, "light" and non-pressure requiring cargo to justify the use of Beluga XL,
which is exactly what Airbus is using it for, by transporting fuselages of
other planes.
~~~
masklinn
Mriya is a 30 years old one-off, a better comparison would be An-124 or
747-8F.
Though Mriya's cargo weight capacity is 250t, 190t is the heaviest _single
item_ it's lifted (a power station gas generator, from Poland to Armenia).
------
gumby
I love the beluga paint job.
Given its use for transporting large plane parts I’d think an airship would
more cost effective. For wind turbine places and the like too, as in both
cases size is a bigger barrier than weight.
I know there have been some airship projects in the past few years: why have
they not succeeded?
------
alkonaut
Consider the software predicaments caused by the changed aerodynamics at some
angles of the 737-MAX, and consider the shape of this thing compared to the
A330. I wonder how much of the control of A330 had to be updated for this -
and how much that will cost for each sold individual of the transporter
version.
~~~
masklinn
The problem of the 737 was trying to keep to the type rating so crew didn't
need re-training and re-certification, especially for airlines which refuse to
fly anything but 737s.
This was not a concern here, it's not going to be sold to operators (let alone
operators who don't want to retrain crew).
There are only 5 Beluga XL (likewise its predecessor) and it exists solely and
exclusively for Airbus to move parts around due to the distributed nature of
its production.
Before Airbus built their own cargo aircraft, they used Super Guppies, which
is why there is one on display near or in two of Airbus' facilities (Toulouse
and Hamburg), despite the Guppy being on a Boeing base. Airbus actually bought
the right to build Guppies at the time.
------
thrillgore
I think the addition of the Beluga smile is just adorable.
------
golergka
How much do you have to spend on logistics so you end up paying $1 billion for
a special plane program? Is transportation of parts is so speed-sensitive in
plane manufacturing industry that you couldn't possibly use some other kind of
transport?
~~~
samatman
This is actually a good question.
The answer is that Airbus is a consortium, a prestige project of the European
Union.
One consequence of this, is that parts are manufactured in multiple countries,
at a considerable distance from one another, as opposed to the more
consolidated approach taken by Boeing.
Therefore, they have a unique need to ship very large and somewhat delicate
parts from place to place. The Beluga is a consequence of this.
~~~
masklinn
> One consequence of this, is that parts are manufactured in multiple
> countries, at a considerable distance from one another, as opposed to the
> more consolidated approach taken by Boeing.
FWIW Boeing built a similar plane (the 747-400 LCF / 747 Dreamlifter) to move
787 parts from suppliers, as they were considered too large for marine
shipping and existing cargo planes. The biggest difference is LCF is a
conversion from regular 747s (though according to wikipedia the program cost
the same $1bn, being built from a much heavier plane the Dreamlifter has much
higher capacity but somewhat lower volume in its similarly unpressurised
hold).
~~~
baud147258
The beluga (both the previous version and the XL one) are both derived from
other Airbus planes (A300 & A330)
~~~
masklinn
The belugas are derived from exiting frames but Airbus programs of their own.
The Dreamlifter is a straight up conversion of second-hand 747-400s by a
contracted third-party (Evergreen Aviation Technologies Corporation).
------
knolax
> The aircraft's lower fuselage will be assembled on the A330 final assembly
> line, and then be moved to another facility for the year-long process of
> assembling the upper fuselage and the lowered nose fuselage.
They do use Beluga XLs to these parts around too?
------
major505
Well the name is fitting. It really looks like a beluga when looked from the
side.
~~~
buboard
it wasn't even named as such, until they noticed the similarity
------
mikepurvis
Anyone know anything about the routes that it's running? I'm surprised these
kinds of large parts aren't moved around by barge.
~~~
txcwpalpha
Moving the parts by plane works better because the place where the parts are
needed (aka the factory where they are put together) is at an airport, which
is where this thing can land and directly offload right into the factory.
Barges are tougher because unless there is a waterway directly next to the
factory/airport (which isn't the case for Airbus's main factories AFAIK), it
can be hard transporting such large pieces via streets between the waterway
and the factory.
~~~
lispm
Various parts of the Airbus planes are moved with ships between factories.
Airbus ship at the Hamburg Finkenwerder factory:
[https://shipsnmoreships.smugmug.com/ShipsinEuropeanWaters/Ha...](https://shipsnmoreships.smugmug.com/ShipsinEuropeanWaters/Hamburg-
Cuxhaven-Elbe/CITY-OF-HAMBURG-Finkenwerder/)
~~~
txcwpalpha
That's a cool lookin boat. Airbus's factory in Hamburg is right on the Elbe,
so it makes sense that they would use barges for transport to/from it. The
factories in Toulouse and Seville are a bit farther from any waterways afaik.
~~~
masklinn
While not on the Garonne itself, Airbus Toulouse is pretty close (3km),
however it's _way_ farther inland from the sea, on a smaller river, and IIRC
there are pretty low lying bridges on the way, so they have to move the parts
to river barges.
~~~
txcwpalpha
I also think even that 3km can be challenging when you're talking about having
to move objects that are the length of a small skyscraper through narrow,
twisty streets. I found this picture of such a move [1]. I wonder how often
they have to do this!
1:
[https://airbus-h.assetsadobe2.com/is/image/content/dam/chann...](https://airbus-h.assetsadobe2.com/is/image/content/dam/channel-
specific/website-/company/history_milestones/A380_road_transport.jpg)
edit: I found this page [2] where it talks about moving A380 parts to
Toulouse. It sounds like it does happen via the Garonne, but not anywhere even
remotely close to Toulouse!
> Here, the components are transferred to specially-designed barges, which
> carry them on the penultimate part of their 95 km. voyage up Garonne River
> from Pauillac to Langon. ... In Langon, aircraft sections are transferred to
> outsized-load trucks to complete their journey to Toulouse by road.
That means the wings and other components have to travel more than 200km from
Langon to Toulouse by road, which is wild. Good thing a lot of that is
relatively empty countryside rather than packed city streets.
2: [https://www.airbus.com/aircraft/how-is-an-aircraft-
built/tra...](https://www.airbus.com/aircraft/how-is-an-aircraft-
built/transport-of-major-aircraft-sections.html)
~~~
masklinn
FWIW there's a video of A380 parts moving through the streets, they had to be
scheduled at night and the tolerances (to buildings!) are really low, it's
really cool.
A much larger version of the A-12 trips between Burbank and Area-51, which was
also super cool.
------
faitswulff
Is this a case of biomimicry? Is the peculiar design functional?
~~~
nuccy
The shape is just a result of the engineering decisions to reach Airbus's
goal: transport fuselages to Toulouse. Those are relatively light, but big, so
building a tube-like structure above the main "chassis" of the plane yields to
this kind of shape, which we then recognize as a similarity to beluga.
~~~
faitswulff
Ah, so it was all after-the-fact. Thank you.
------
enjoyyourlife
It is actually smaller than the Airbus Beluga
Source:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_large_aircraft](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_large_aircraft)
~~~
authoritarian
Those lists are alphabetical, not by size...
~~~
barkingcat
The parent is pretty much the worse kind of hn posting - not only did they not
read the original article, they didn't read the wikipedia article they linked
to as proof of their statement.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: What's the best way to write an API specification in 2017? - webmaven
Swagger, RAML, API Blueprint.. there still seem to be as many options as ever with no clear winner.<p>What have your experiences been like with these tools?
======
haidrali
I have used Swagger a lot and I like it as well other option I like the most
it gituhub also let you document things
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The Plan to Save a Life by Head Transplant - mmastrac
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/09/the-audacious-plan-to-save-this-mans-life-by-transplanting-his-head/492755/?single_page=true
======
broahmed
"...Christiaan Barnard, a South African who performed the first human heart
transplant, technically killed the first donor, a brain-dead woman, by taking
her off life support without her family’s permission and giving her an
injection of potassium to render her legally dead."
I was surprised to read this and naturally did some googling. I couldn't find
anything about Christiaan Barnard taking the donor off of life support without
her family's permission. Anyone know of evidence for this statement?
~~~
grahamel
It's on Denise Darvall's (the donor) wikipedia page,
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denise_Darvall](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denise_Darvall)
~~~
animal531
Based on that text it seems like a reasonable course of action.
------
matt_morgan
It should really be called a "body transplant."
~~~
jwn
The article does mention that, but I don't think simply defining the base of
the transplant as the section with the most mass accurately describes the
situation. What part of the body defines a person's identity? Is it the head,
or the rest of the body? I can see a case where the brain is considered the
center of mass (from an operation standpoint).
~~~
cthulhujr
Can it be defined as what is being replaced and discarded? When you have a
heart transplant, they replace the heart with a new one and discard the old
heart. In this case, they're discarding the body, so I see it as a body
transplant. As others have noted, mass is meaningless in this context.
Edit: The sources on wikipedia's
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_transplant](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_transplant)
article all call it a head transplant... so, I assume people more
knowledgeable than I on the topic have already "talked it out". Head
transplant it is!
~~~
danilocesar
They also "discard" the dead head... So, I guess no.
~~~
justinlardinois
What's discarded from the donor doesn't really mean much. We don't consider
what parts of organ donors' bodies aren't used.
------
sevenless
Reading all those different, excruciatingly difficult surgical steps it sounds
like it would be just about easier to give him a robot body, Futurama-Nixon
style.
~~~
maxerickson
The head transplant boils down to 3 problems: microsurgery, nerve regeneration
and immunotherapy. Each of which is incredibly complicated, but the
understanding is there to do things like full hand transplants (they don't
restore full function, but the doctors apparently believe them to be useful
enough to be ethical).
We have no idea how to artificially provide all the functions that the body
carries out. We have some baby steps like dialysis, but how would the life
support system deal with infections? Or take a look at the problems that
various heart assist systems have with clotting and coagulation (blood likes
to stick to the artificial surfaces).
~~~
pmoriarty
_" the doctors apparently believe them to be useful enough to be ethical"_
I don't think ethics works that way. Just because something is very useful
doesn't necessarily mean that it's ethical.
Nuclear weapons are a case in point. Few will deny that they're very useful
and effective weapons, but many believe their use to be unethical, no matter
how useful they are.
Chemical and biological weapons, and cluster bombs are other similar examples.
~~~
SamReidHughes
Fortunately we all understood this to be in the context of performing a
medical operation.
~~~
pmoriarty
I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at. Are you saying that
usefulness trumps ethics in medicine but not in warfare? If so, why do you
think that?
~~~
Gracana
Of course it doesn't "trump ethics." In the context of a hand transplant, the
likelihood of the procedure resulting in a useful hand is a large part of
deciding whether or not it's ethical. The likelihood of improved quality of
life is weighed against the likelihood of pain and complications.
------
1812Overture
Seems like it would be a good idea to try this with a brain-dead head first to
look for issues of tissue rejection etc before trying this on living person.
~~~
sokoloff
From the article: Ren also wants to choreograph the surgery with cadavers and,
as a final test, swap the heads of two brain-dead donors.
~~~
1812Overture
Thanks, must have missed that.
------
Matt_Mickiewicz
Anybody else find the photo of the russian dog grafted onto the back for
another disturbing?
~~~
justbees
I want to know if anyone did NOT find it disturbing. So, yes, I found it
disturbing. Related -> a cool synchronicity happened to me while reading this
article. The Roky Erikson song Two-Headed Dog came on and I realized it must
be referencing that experiment!
~~~
Joeboy
Hah, I experienced no such synchronicity but was motivated to put it on
anyway.
------
kilroy123
How is this procedure remotely legal? This man undergoing this "surgery" has
virtually a 100% chance of dying and being killed in the process.
I'm baffled by this, and can only assume it's all a big publicity stunt by the
doctor.
~~~
imagist
He has virtually a 100% chance of dying with or without the surgery.
------
maxxxxx
I wonder how a different body will affect the personality of the person. With
different hormone levels you probably have different emotions.
~~~
smellf
The article goes into this. Not only the hormones that come from the body, but
also the donor body's gut flora and differing physicality from the host's
would in some ways make it a new, third person who emerges from the operating
room.
~~~
maxxxxx
I am at work so I could only skim the article. I am unsure about the ethics
and I doubt they will succeed but it's certainly very interesting.
------
shmerl
Sounds like Professor Dowell's Head[1].
1\.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professor_Dowell's_Head](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professor_Dowell's_Head)
------
Raphmedia
I can't wait to order a nice fit dead body and transplant my head on it.
~~~
cLeEOGPw
You will completely ruin that body in 2 months and have to transplant yourself
on another fit body to maintain the fitness.
On the other hand, if your head gets chopped down and thrown in garbage, and
fit person's head is put on, your body will live longer than it would right
now with you.
~~~
Raphmedia
Hey, hey, I take care of my mediocre body. I simply want the 6ft tall, blond
haired, blue eyed model. Bonus points if you can add underwater breathing and
fit in electric windows.
------
irrational
Russians doing a head transplant? Why are they remaking that x-files movie?
------
sxcurry
I really wish they would quit torturing animals for this kind of garbage. If
people are so desperate to live on, why not proceed directly to human
experiments?
~~~
MOARDONGZPLZ
I see where you're coming from. One of my best friends does spinal cord
research to repair severed spinal cords. This involves damaging the spinal
cords of primates. It makes me feel uneasy, but there really is no other way
and certainly experimenting on a person is less ethical than experimenting on
an animal. No one wants to harm the animal.
~~~
euyyn
Experimenting on the animal before doing it on the person is understandable.
But it raises more ethical concerns, not fewer, due to the fact that the
animal cannot possibly consent to the experiment.
~~~
duncan_bayne
I think that's an example of category error. Animals aren't capable of consent
because they aren't capable of comprehending either consent, or the experiment
in question. If they were, they'd be human by any sensible definition.
To rely on consent to perform animal experiments is like relying on my
sandwich to consent to me eating it. It's just not a thing sandwiches are
capable of doing.
~~~
euyyn
Nobody relies on consent to perform animal experiments, because animals can't
consent, so I'm not sure where you're trying to go with that.
Unlike the sandwich you're eating, animals are capable of suffering, which is
why experimenting with them raises ethical issues to start with.
Some people are incapable of comprehending consent, and are incapable of
comprehending scientific experiments. Those people can't be subjects of
experiments, precisely for that reason. You seem to be arguing for the
opposite.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Show HN: College housing startup acquired by Facebook after one day - ycmike
https://www.facebook.com/domiapp/posts/1577023482521809
======
minimaxir
Saying that "Facebook/Google acquired X startup for $Y billion!" is not a
witty or original April Fool's joke.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Backbone.js 0.5.0 Released (with pushState) - jashkenas
http://blog.documentcloud.org/blog/2011/07/code-release-backbone-js-0-5-0/
======
jashkenas
I'd be curious to hear from anyone who thinks that this sort of parallel
hashchange/pushState support is a _bad_ idea. It should prove to be
controversial at the least.
* <http://www.documentcloud.org/public/#search/guantanamo>
* <http://www.documentcloud.org/public/search/guantanamo>
People who don't care much about Internet Explorer support often say to just
use pushState, and let IE users endure full page refreshes ... but that's not
really an acceptable way to build a responsive web app.
Hopefully, having the same structure for pushState and hash-based URLs, with
transparent upgrades in both directions, is a sane way to bridge these sort of
applications to the future.
~~~
masklinn
> People who don't care much about Internet Explorer support often say to just
> use pushState, and let IE users endure full page refreshes ... but that's
> not really an acceptable way to build a responsive web app.
Why not? It's responsive for those with a modern browser (and may get the IE
team to integrate the history API in IE10), and is less responsive for those
with an older browser. That _can be_ an acceptable tradeoff.
~~~
jashkenas
Sure -- it depends where you draw the line for "acceptable", and how much you
care about the experience of your IE users. In any single-page web app of
significant size, I'd argue that it's _never_ acceptable to do a full page
refresh. Would you really want to go back to a GMail that refreshed when you
clicked around between labels?
Regarding (2): hash-based URLs also work perfectly well for older browsers.
~~~
catshirt
you're right, "acceptable" is subjective. but it doesn't seem unreasonable
that if you are using an outdated version of a program, it will not perform
optimally. to that end, managing both pushState and hashchange adds overhead
and complexity. personally, i don't think enhancing old browsers is worth said
overhead.
_that said_ , if it was part of a framework i was using anyway, overhead and
complexity are much less of an issue, so the question becomes "why not".
------
johnbender
For those of you looking to use pushState in your apps, its also broken in iOS
4.2.x.
More information here:
[http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6161701/is-history-api-
br...](http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6161701/is-history-api-broken-on-
ios-location-bar-doesnt-update-on-pushstate)
------
MatthewPhillips
Right now I'm doing pushState manually and I have a bug that I can't figure
out. popstate happens whenever history changes, including when the user types
my URL in and hits enter. There doesn't appear to be a way to differentiate
between hitting the back button and going to my URL directly. Which is a
problem because if they type it in directly I want to render on the server, if
they hit the back button I want to do xhr. What am I doing wrong?
As for Backbone, I really need to switch to this rather than manually handling
click events and feeding jquery tmpl. Backbone seems to be a much better way
to do it but there also appears to be a learning curve that I'm fighting
against going through.
~~~
masklinn
> Which is a problem because if they type it in directly I want to render on
> the server
Why? What difference does the precise way they navigated to the URL make?
> if they hit the back button I want to do xhr.
Most back buttons have a popup menu which let users go to a completely
arbitrary url they've already seen, they're not limited to the very last page.
They can also hit the button several times to go back to the same page.
> What am I doing wrong?
You're adding arbitrary separations between two instances of the same event:
your users going from your site to your site.
~~~
MatthewPhillips
They are not arbitrary separations, they are very real. When a user navigates
from the URL bar or from a link on another site the browser requests a
specific location from my server. Since I'm already serving the browse HTML it
makes sense to render my templates at the same time. It doesn't make sense to
send only a generic template and then have the popstate trigger an XHR request
for some JSON which gets rendered by a javascript template library. That's
extra and unnecessary.
What are you suggesting? That I request the entire html doc at every popstate
event?
~~~
masklinn
> When a user navigates from the URL bar or from a link on another site the
> browser requests a specific location from my server. Since I'm already
> serving the browse HTML it makes sense to render my templates at the same
> time. It doesn't make sense to send only a generic template and then have
> the popstate trigger an XHR request for some JSON which gets rendered by a
> javascript template library. That's extra and unnecessary.
Wait, I might have misunderstood something here: do you mean `popstate` is
triggered when users _arrive on your site from an other one or from nowhere_?
On initial loading? As in, it's triggered by navigation between different
domains, not just in-domain navigation?
~~~
MatthewPhillips
Correct.
~~~
masklinn
Would you happen to be using Chrome?
edit: Try checking the `state` attribute of your event object, it should only
be set (therefore truthy) for history entries created via pushState, urls
being navigated will not have a state.
~~~
MatthewPhillips
Yep. Chrome bug?
~~~
masklinn
May be a chrome bug[0] or a spec bug/weirdness[1].
See edit, try checking for the state attribute on your event object to filter
out spurious popstate events.
An other option would be to use a shim library (History.js) handling that kind
of crap (and smoothing out implementation details issues) for you.
[0]
[http://www.google.com/support/forum/p/Chrome/thread?tid=28ed...](http://www.google.com/support/forum/p/Chrome/thread?tid=28edce84cd40d581&hl=en)
[1] [http://hacks.mozilla.org/2011/03/history-api-changes-in-
fire...](http://hacks.mozilla.org/2011/03/history-api-changes-in-firefox-4/)
~~~
MatthewPhillips
Yep, I was doing it wrong. You're supposed to pass a state object as the first
parameter, I was passing null. So this fixes 2 things, prevents me from having
to do XHR on initial page load AND I don't need to do an XHR on back/forward
navigation either, I can just use the state object to store my data. Awesome!
~~~
masklinn
Good to hear.
------
DrHankPym
I read somewhere that Backbone was being dropped for Spine.
<http://maccman.github.com/spine/>
Anyone else know anything about this?
~~~
jashkenas
Hah, that might be what Spine would like you to think ;)
In all seriousness, Spine is Alex MacCaw's rewrite/re-imagining of Backbone
for his O'Reilly book: <http://jswebapps.heroku.com/>
The broad strokes are roughly the same, but the internals work differently.
I'd suggest you look at what both libraries have to offer, and pick whichever
suits your fancy. The benefits accrued by your application should be similar
in both cases.
Spine doesn't depend on Underscore.js, but also doesn't benefit from
Underscore's rich collection functions. If you'd like to each, map, filter,
find, reject, every, some, invoke, include, sortBy, without, or pluck over
your models, try Backbone.
If Backbone looks too bewildering at first glance, Spine may be easier to
start with: the documentation is certainly better geared for beginners.
------
nikcub
I can now scrap my pushState fork :)
------
azrealus
Hey Jeremy! Thanks for releasing the new version!
------
Hipchan
<http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6193858/pushstate-and-seo>
pushState's SEO issues.
~~~
odiroot
Or you could use progressive JavaScript, AFAIK. Make your every link a first
class citizen (with it's own view) and for supported browsers replace links'
default action with content switching (without reloading) using JS requests.
Of course that's a bit harder since your views need to respond in a different
manner to casual GETs and AJAX requests.
~~~
encoderer
Which really should be trivial using most modern 3-Tier frameworks. They
universally have a concept of "layout" vs "template" so in a pseudocode logic,
all you need to do is tap into the render method and swap out an empty layout
when responding to an XHR request.
~~~
odiroot
Exactly, however one can argue the number of your test cases (and cache
entries) doubles. Still I think it's an elegant solution.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Citibank's $900M Blunder - superasn
https://finshots.in/archive/citibank-billion-dollar-blunder/
======
nrmitchi
I fail to see all of the defense of Brigade that is happening here. Arguments
that "Well Revlon owned them the money, they just through it was a prepayment"
seems like a gross simplification of the situation. A prepayment of this
magnitude would never happen without some sort of other communication.
Further, as far as I know, Brigade was _not_ owed $175M. There was a debt for
that amount, but at the time the payment was made, they were only owed what
was specified in the payment plan/agreement, which would have been the $1.5M.
Just because they were also owed more money in the future, does not mean that
it was owed now.
As a "down to earth" example, my employer will owe me more money in the
future, according to the terms of my employment. But on September 1st, they
will only owe me my bi-monthly paycheck.
If they over-pay me, and deposit a full years worth of my salary into my
account, it is not reasonable for me to say "Oh, I guess they chose to prepay
me for a year! Awesome." Your employer will take that over-payment back, and
if you fight it, you will lose.
~~~
jtc331
Your employer analogy doesn't hold up because you have not yet tendered the
services to your employer for which they would be indebted to you in the
future.
A better a analogy would be your mortgage, which is in fact a debt you owe in
full, a payment schedule notwithstanding.
~~~
jmvoodoo
Except the loan was paid including all interest for the lifetime of the loan.
If you prepaid your mortgage that way, even on purpose, your bank would owe
you a good portion of your money back.
~~~
freeone3000
That is incorrect - I would actually owe my bank an additional prepayment
penalty, according to my mortgage structure.
~~~
PascLeRasc
What? Every time I try to learn what a mortgage is it seems more like a scam.
The only thing a bank should say to paying more is "thank you".
~~~
binbag
I don’t think you understand how banks earn money. People deposit funds which
they then loan to others. The interest they get from the debtors is more then
the interest they pay depositors. If everyone repaid their mortgage early they
have no profit, so they need to cover themselves for that. They aren’t
charities.
~~~
deathanatos
And the bank does get the interest, for the duration for which the money is
not in their hands. A "pre-payment penalty" sounds to me like the bank asking
you for money while they themselves can then also turn around and loan that
(now repaid, with penalty!) money out to another person desiring a loan, and
get even _more_ profit.
> _The interest they get from the debtors is more then the interest they pay
> depositors._
The interest paid to most accounts these days is a pittance, adding less back
than is lost to inflation, and many accounts have additional fees.
------
whatok
There's a lot of comments in here saying that it was the amount Brigade was
owed so they probably just thought it was prepayment. There is no chance on
earth prepayment of a loan was made without any sort of communication
beforehand. Brigade very well knows that they weren't supposed to receive the
$ (at this point in time) but it's a cheaper option to take this to court and
potentially keep the money (low probability event) than give it back and see a
potentially much smaller sum in restructuring (high probability event).
Anyone familiar with distressed situations knows that these things are knife
fights so this kind of behavior is not surprising. Brigade is big enough that
banks aren't going to refuse to do business with them because of something
like this.
~~~
appleiigs
Everything you say is correct if it was Revlon's money, but it wasn't. So even
if Brigade delay long enough for a restructuring, Brigade still won't be able
to keep the money. They are independent events: 1) unjust enrichment is
Citibank vs. Brigade. 2) restructuring is Brigade vs. Revlon's other
creditors/investors.
~~~
HumblyTossed
> Brigade still won't be able to keep the money.
What about the interest accrued from keeping the money for a time?
~~~
natpalmer1776
That's probably why the courts agreed to freeze the funds completely.
~~~
HumblyTossed
I missed that very obvious point, thanks.
------
social_quotient
I’m struggling a little on the details. Citi paid 900mm to lenders of which
only 175mm went to Brigade.
Things I’d like to know:
-Who got the other amount and Did they return it?
-The 900mm mistake is actually several mistakes not just 1 simple typo? How is that possible.
As for wrapping my head around this. It’s a total debt of 1.5bn. Let’s drop
some zeros and see how we think of it. Let’s say 15k credit card with AMEX. I
owe 150 in interest but instead I send 1,500. Would they refund the mistake?
Let’s go ahead and follow the headline and say I paid 9k of my 15k balance.
Would they refund the mistake? (Honest question) This scenario is at the
consumer level and zeros matter but I see sloppiness somewhere in Citi and
their dealing with money when it’s specifically what they are trusted to do.
As for the “loss”...
Let’s consider how this should likely play. The loss here of Citi isn’t
materially that they lose the money. It would get rolled into a loan to Revlon
at the same rates. Revlon still has to pay it, just Citi has to float the
time. The material loss to Citi should be near zero - they could even sell the
loan at a slight loss to get it off their plate. Oops we sent 900mm to you...
Now we are the loan holder. They end up with money tied up and should Revlon
go to bankruptcy then they will realize this loss.
Stats -Citi has a 100bn market cap.
-They have currently 685bn in loans outstanding to borrowers.
-currently holding 26.4bn for credit losses for pandemic.
[https://www.citigroup.com/citi/news/2020/second-
quarter-2020...](https://www.citigroup.com/citi/news/2020/second-
quarter-2020-earnings.htm)
The only news I really see here is how Citi ops let an unexpected amount get
sent without proper authorizations.
~~~
LatteLazy
If you're employer sent you 10x your monthly salary, you would be expected to
return 9 of those x's. Not just "great, don't pay me again for 9 more months,
let's hope I don't quit before then lol".
~~~
koboll
Right, but that's because I'm _not owed_ 10x my monthly salary.
~~~
LatteLazy
Yes, you are, just not yet, exactly like revlon/brigade.
~~~
salamander014
No, you aren't. Unless he was on contract for the year, the salary for the
rest of the year won't be paid in full if the employee leaves or is fired, for
example.
A loan is the opposite.
~~~
LatteLazy
Sorry to be blunt but... you're sort of wrong twice:
* EVEN IF he has a contract for the year, there would still be 1001 things that might happen between then and now that mean he isn't actually due payment (company bankruptcy, his death etc). That's why he cannot keep the money.
* And that is exactly the same position that Revlon\Brigade are in: Brigade are no more SURE they will get paid or that Revlon will even be legally required to pay them...
~~~
URSpider94
There’s a difference between obligation and payment terms.
I undoubtedly owe my mortgage lender for the full amount of the loan on my
house. I can choose whether to just pay the monthly payment, or I can pay more
at any time, up to the full outstanding principal. If I send my lender a
bigger check, they’ll gladly cash it and apply it to the principal, and I
don’t think I’d have any luck in asking for the money back. It’s implicit with
most loans that the borrower can pre-pay ahead of the payment schedule at any
time.
For my salary, my employer’s obligation is only for the past two weeks of
work. Any overpayment on their part would be due back to them immediately.
~~~
cameldrv
I'm pretty sure if you could show that your bank made a mistake and
transferred them 10x your mortgage payment, that they would give it back.
~~~
true_religion
Probably. However if you pay off your mortgage by accident, they won't just
give you back the money. They might also be uninterested in giving you a new
mortgage if you are already declaring bankruptcy.
------
Hermel
IANAL, but all of this probably depends on a tiny detail: did Revlon instruct
Citibank to pay the $176.2 million to Brigade Capital?
(1) If the answer is yes, then this qualifies as a payment instruction. In a
payment instruction, a bank sends someone money on behalf of the payer and in
return claims that amount from the payer. In that case, citibank would have to
recover the 176.2 million from Revlon.
(2) If the answer is no and citibank sent out the money by mistake without
having been instructed to do so, it should be able to reclaim it from Brigade
Capital.
The article mentions that citibank never deducted the paid amount from
Revlon's account. This would hint at option (2) being the case.
~~~
basseq
Revlon did not instruct Citibank to pay the $176.2M:
_> Their first line of defence is Revlon’s own statement — “Revlon did not
pay down the loan or any part of the loan”._
IANAL, but this seems pretty cut and dried in favor of Citibank.
_Citibank_ does not have any liability to Brigade, and they paid the money
"from its own account". Combined with Citibank's role as an _intermediary_
between Revlon (who, again, did not instruct or actually pay the money) and
Brigade, I don't see how Brigade has any claim on _Citibank 's_ money.
------
ferros
How does a hedge fund decide they want to keep money that’s not theirs and
fight it in court?
And they manage people’s money as a business.
Who would entrust these people with their money after learning of this case?
edit: typo.
~~~
boffinism
To be fair to them, the hedge fund decided they wanted to keep money that they
think _is_ theirs, which they had loaned to Revlon.
Imagine a world where debtors can choose to repay lenders, and then change
their minds and take the loan back again. It would make being a lender
impossible. So it's sort of understandable if Brigade genuinely believe that,
at one point, there was a conscious decision on the part of someone to repay
the loan. Given that the sum they received was equal to the exact amount of
the loan, it's not completely unreasonable.
~~~
ferros
Understand your point, but if I was a customer there is zero chance I am
investing a cent with them.
My thinking is if they do this with Citibank and a hundred million, I have no
confidence in being able to recover my own money in case of a dispute.
~~~
ooobit2
I stuck with Wells Fargo after their fraudulent account debacle, and I can
attest first-hand that this will happen again, affect more people, and be only
relatively as frustrating compared to the last big issue. It's when I look
back on _before_ that time that I decided to break with business after changes
to Wells Fargo ACH policy in 2018.
In 2018, I was laid off, lost almost everything over five months. I had one
bill on autopay that I eventually ran out of funds to pay. IIRC in June 2018,
WF stopped denying repeat ACH attempts if, on the first two attempts, the
funds were not available and/or WF would not choose to pay it and simply
overdraw the account. Every single attempt would now process. On December 3,
my account was at $490 when the $600 payment attempted, then again, and again,
over and over, for 9 business days. My account was closed with a -$1,800+
balance. I lost count of the number of NSF fees by day four or five. And Wells
Fargo decided to pay that payment upon closure of my account. So, I went from
$490 on December 3, 2018, to owing almost $2,000 in fees to Wells Fargo two
weeks later.
I'll pay it off when I can, as you know, it's still my debt, but while other
banks were cutting fees, WF was changing its policies to ramp them up. I ended
up in an unfortunate waltz of financial doom with them. And I had a low
statistical risk of running into a problem with them because I used so few of
their services. Don't leave it up to luck. When you see risky behavior, grab
your money and _go_. They're willing to keep doing crap like this because they
know most people think it would never happen to their personal accounts.
~~~
jermaustin1
A similar thing happened to my wife, from the age of like 12 she had a wells
fargo savings account, her mother would deposit $50 each time her father paid
child support. It was supposed to be an account that when she graduated
highschool and went off to college she would have some money for random
things. She and I met during Junior year of high school, and moved in to a
shitty apartment near her college at 18, thinking that she had some money to
help with the deposit. I paid everything first, then she was going to pay me
back.
Turns out her mother had been depositing the $50 each week automatically until
she was about 17, but was also randomly over the years withdrawing nearly all
of it. And at the time she went in, she was -$240 on the account, and they
wouldn't allow her to close it until that was paid off, and they were going to
continue feeing her $20 each month for having less than the required amount.
By the time we finally had the income available to close the account it had
accrued around $1000 in fees.
And yet, for some stupid reason, I am still with Wells Fargo today, 15 years
on...
~~~
impendia
> And yet, for some stupid reason, I am still with Wells Fargo today, 15 years
> on...
Why?
I hate to rub salt in your wounds, but they have demonstrated that they are
unworthy of your business. Acting on this would play a small part in forcing
them to either change, or else go out of business.
~~~
jasonwatkinspdx
When I was younger I worked for a wells fargo joint venture that did credit
investigations related to mortgages. To this day I'm convinced that the way
they set up their QA policy was deliberately designed to enable fraud. I most
definitely would not do business with them.
------
Animats
Look at the bigger picture. The loan here was probably made originally by
Citibank to Revlon, and then the loan was sold to Brigade. That's implied by
the expected payment flow - Revlon to Citibank to Brigade. So Citibank was the
loan originator, and when they sold the loan, became just the servicer of the
loan. That's all quite common.
Citibank, by paying off Brigade, effectively bought the loan back. Something
Citibank might choose to do under some circumstances, and may have the
contractual option do to. If Revlon were not going broke, this would be a non-
problem. Revlon still has the obligation to pay Citibank. Citibank would just
have another loan on the books, and could hold onto it and collect the
payments, or sell it off again.
Revlon is in trouble and trying hard to restructure their debt.[1] As a
servicer, that wasn't Citibank's problem. Having accidentally bought the loan
back, now it is.
This will probably all turn on the contract terms. Did Citibank have the
option to buy back the loan from Brigade? Details like that.
I have a friend at a big law firm who deals with contract law messes like
this. She's said that IPOs and startups are fun - everybody is happy and
upbeat. In bankruptcies and workouts, everybody hates everybody else. No fun.
[1] [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-05-04/revlon-
wi...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-05-04/revlon-wins-
approval-for-debt-deal-facing-some-investor-pushback)
~~~
nutjob2
> effectively bought the loan back
Yes, at full price. Meanwhile Revlon debt is trading at a roughly 70% discount
on the open market.
------
rurp
This reminds me of a similar story from a very different domain: The World
Series of Poker. Some years back a high limit player went to the bathroom and
hung his money belt on the inside of the stall door, did his business, then
walked out forgetting the belt was in the stall.
As soon as he realized his mistake he ran back in a panic because the belt
contained over $700,000 in high denomination chips. By the time he got back
the money was gone.
The tournament director announced what had happened (leaving out most of the
details) and asked for the person who found the money belt to return it.
This sparked a lot of conversation at the event that year. Aside from the
ethics of keeping the money there would be some big practical hurdles. High
value casino chips are carefully tracked individually, so the issuing casino
would almost certainly recognize any large chips from that haul as having been
paid out to the original owner.
I later heard second or third hand that the money belt was returned with all
of the chips to the person who lost them, who in turn gave that person a
sizable reward.
------
JoeAltmaier
I just wonder, if I as a private person had a brain fart and wrote a check in
full for my car loan, instead of just an installment, what are my chances of
retrieving that money? Very small I should think.
So, are corporations classed as fictional persons? Then let Citibank live with
the mistake. As I would have to.
~~~
mehrdadn
> I just wonder, if I as a private person had a brain fart and wrote a check
> in full for my car loan, instead of just an installment, what are my chances
> of retrieving that money? Very small I should think.
I would've assumed that if you contacted them immediately and gave them
adequate notice of the mistake, you'd be able to get it sorted. Very curious
what the actual answer is in the real world.
~~~
chasd00
unless you were able to request a stop payment on the check prior to it
clearing I don't see how you would be able to get the money returned. Or, at
least, whatever entity you owed the money to would not be required to return
it. Maybe they would if they so chose but I don't see any way you could force
them.
------
saimiam
These clerical errors must be more common than I thought.
A few years ago, when I had taken a mortgage to buy a house, I had the exact
amount of the mortgage transferred into my account instead of going to the
seller or wherever it was supposed to go - maybe to the seller mortgage
provider?
I returned the money but I'm no hedge fund.
~~~
iamshs
"The former MasterChef contestant, Dani Venn, and her husband Chris Burgess
were left homeless last week when $250,000 from the settlement of her recently
sold Melbourne property was stolen by hackers who set up third party accounts
to breach the fledgling electronic property transfer system Property Exchange
Australia (PEXA).
Ms Venn’s bank, the Commonwealth Bank, was able to freeze $138,000 of the
funds, but the hackers who entered the system via her conveyancer’s account
made off with the remainder.
“The $110,000 is missing and it’s not recoverable,” she said."
[https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/masterchef-
finalis...](https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/masterchef-finalist-
caught-in-conveyancer-hack-recovers-half-her-money-but-could-still-be-
homeless-20180624-p4znfe.html)
~~~
sukilot
Wow PEXA flat out stole $110K from a random civilian to cover for their own
negligence. And face zero consequences for it because they are a state-
approved monopoly.
~~~
below43
Looks like she got it back
[https://www.9news.com.au/national/masterchef-contestant-
dani...](https://www.9news.com.au/national/masterchef-contestant-dani-venn-
home-sale-hack-pexa/58245cf0-b6ac-45bb-a904-d97d770877b4)
------
adrr
I'm confused why Brigade isn't being charged criminally. Any time a individual
receives a transfer in error and doesn't return it, they are hauled off to
jail for theft of funds.
Example: [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-
canada-49643015](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49643015)
~~~
manquer
They are owed the exact same amount they got from revlon. They didn’t get free
money.
If you mistakenly pay back extra on a loan/mortgage bank is not going easily
give it back to you, especially if you were about to go bankrupt.
~~~
adrr
Money came from Citi bank which is just facilitating the transfer and an
employee made a mistake a used bank money instead of the entities money.
It's like you payback the loan but the bank accidentally uses its own money
and not your money. You'd get hauled off to jail if you didn't return the
money.
~~~
manquer
I am not sure it is so simple mistake as a typo by a single employee , brigade
was paid the exact amount they were owed principal + interest . It wasn’t some
one’s transaction they got, they were instead paid early by mistake .
It is more like you dad who guaranteed your loan paid it off fully instead of
paying only the monthly amount and now saying it was a mistake.
Administrator in this context is more a guarantor than facilitator .
Sure courts may say that your dad does get the money back, but it is not
straightforward as you say, if you were that lender getting the money back
from a likely defaulter , you surely won’t give it back unless the court says
so.
------
hn_throwaway_99
Can someone tell me how these large financial transfers work, and why there
isn't a time period when the money can be returned? I think an error of this
magnitude would have been recognized almost immediately, no?
I mean, if someone does an ACH transfer into my bank account, it can 'clear',
but it can still be revoked days later if there was something wrong with the
transaction. Indeed, this was the basis for a bunch of "Nigerian Prince" scams
where scammers would send money to someone's account, that person would see it
'cleared', then they'd send some larger amount of money to the Nigerian
Prince, after which the original deposit was revoked, and the bank account
holder was on the hook for the now (usually large) negative balance.
~~~
avianlyric
There are many different payment scheme out there, which all have different
parameters.
ACH is someone unique in that money can just be pulled back, and even in
transactions that take a long time to clear, doesn’t mean that you can cancel
them.
Clearing time is usually caused by multiple sequential systems at multiple
institutions taking their time do something. But once Citi started the
transaction, and their system send the payment messages they probably couldn’t
retract the payment.
Once the first payment message was sent it immediately created a liability on
Citi for the money (either to the payment scheme or the receiving bank), at
that point actually moving the money becomes a bit academic, an unbreakable
promise has already been made.
------
AndyMcConachie
I have absolutely no sympathy for Citibank in this instance. They're a bank.
Their job is to do stuff like facilitate transfers and keep records. That's
their primary mission. If they're too incompetent to do that properly then
maybe they shouldn't be in business.
------
shajznnckfke
I feel a little suspicious of the story that there were _two_ mistakes here.
1) Citi paid the wrong amount (they paid the full outstanding amount, rather
than just the one payment)
2) Citi paid out of the wrong account (Citi’s account instead of Revlon’s
account)
In particular, I’m suspicious of the second claim. If Citi had paid the
correct amount out of this “wrong” account, would anyone have noticed? Is it
possible that paying out of account on behalf of clients is actually a normal
practice? After finding out that they paid the wrong amount, is it possible
that the “wrong account” is a convenient legal cover to make it more likely
the payment can be reversed?
------
credit_guy
The Institutional Investor has a few more details on this affair [1]. To me it
appears Brigade is acting in bad faith here, based on the information
available (I am not in any way connected to any of the actors here, Citi,
Brigade, Revlon, or anybody else). Maybe in is as u/woofie11 explains it in
this thread [2], that Brigade is doing a cynical calculation of sumproducts of
payouts and probabilities, and hoping for a settlement. I wonder if a judge
can't hold them in contempt? This would be a deterrent for this type of
shenanigans by other bad faith guys in the future. Without any downside, why
would anyone _not_ engage in this type of behavior?
[1]
[https://www.institutionalinvestor.com/article/b1mzydxt246pl9...](https://www.institutionalinvestor.com/article/b1mzydxt246pl9/Brigade-
Capital-Claims-It-s-Not-Believable-That-Citi-s-900-Million-Transfer-Was-a-
Mistake)
[2]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24226365](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24226365)
------
LatteLazy
>At this point, you’re probably thinking — Finders Keepers.
No, because that's not how any of this works, even when you're a child.
It's well established that obvious mistakes are obvious mistakes and you don't
get to profit from them. Brigade either had a very dumb lawyer or they were
having a really bad cash-flow problem and wanted this money to cover their
issues...
~~~
ace32229
I think the article does quite a good job of explaining why this isn't
necessarily an obvious mistake.
Sounds like quite a canny lawyer to me!
~~~
LatteLazy
It's interesting to me that the article missed a lot of the reasons though:
* no discussion of scibeners errors
* no mention of the effect on citi of being forced to buy 900m in bonds/debt they never consented to buy
* no discussion of the chilling effect on the wider credit system
* no discussion of why all the other creditors returned their payment without issue
"Should this money be returned" is a fair and interesting question. The answer
is Yes and for a long list of reasons. But the article picks a single one, a
technical one and the example used is a bit weak. Theres still a lot of meat
left on these bones imho :)
------
ineedasername
It seems particularly salient that, near as I can tell, Citi paid the money
out of its own funds, not using Revlon funds it was holding in reserve. In
which case it was not paying money that Revlon owed, it was accidentally
giving Brigade an amount of its own money equal to what Revlon owe, not even
immediately but in the future.
If my understanding it correct, it would seem to be Citi's mistake, leaving
them on the hook rather than Revlon.
------
RobRivera
This is fascinating, in so far as the surface details materialize. However I
feel as details of the loan are read in detail in can be reasonably argued
that one side is in fact more right than the other, but the devil's in the
details.
Early loan payment is a feature of credit. The cashflow is a feature of a
fixed income. If the cashflow can be cut short and money returned at the
debtors option, the creditor is once again found in a situation of having to
seek a superior investment opportunity and thats a risk in some portfolio
managers' eyes.
I think the argument that the spot economic signals are stacked against revlon
isn't a factor in citis favor, and a hedge fund is exercising fiduciary
responsibility by closing the debt, ESPECIALLY if the debt has an early
payment clause.
If citi is told to go "pound sand" then they've effectively acquired a bond
position on Revlon tho, so the argument that the hedgefund must return the
money sounds valud from the sense that currently, revlon doesn't have a formal
bond agreement with citi.
I'm very curious as to the court's position in this case, bc if citi has to
bite the bullet, IB world is going to laugh at citi
------
m3at
> It can happen for instance when someone pays money to another individual
> under the mistaken belief he is liable to pay the amount. And in the event,
> such a transaction does transpire, the law imposes an obligation upon the
> recipient to pay back the money in full.
Can you imagine if a company like TurboTax had to pay back the money they
charge people that legally should be able to fill for free?
------
jasonlfunk
I think the last point made by Brigade proves it was a mistake. If Revlon is
in such financial trouble they Brigade believes they won't be able to pay back
the loan, why would they have paid back the entry thing, with interest, early?
And if it wasn't a mistake, why would they be asking for it back now? It seems
perfectly straightforward to me.
~~~
DangitBobby
C sent B money that B wasn't expecting and immediately asked for it back...
Nothing more clear-cut. Thankfully the tax payers will get to fund the next
riveting installment of "was this obvious mistake actually legally a mistake?"
~~~
TuringNYC
C, acting on behalf of A, which owed money to B:
C returned money owed to B in full, which B was not expecting.
C asked for the money back from B.
~~~
DangitBobby
We just told the same story
------
gigatexal
Man. Banks never make errors in my favor. Pass Go do not collect 200.
------
Yizahi
This is exactly the same situation as in IT with "colored bits". Bits don't
have color of course, they are just 1 and 0. So when you have a sequence of
bits on your storage and it happens to be a sequence legally owned by someone
(DRM), what happens? Could you have randomly clicked on a keyboard all day and
generate exact same sequence as some corporation is selling for money? Maybe.
It is possible. But would court agree with this? No. To the court bits have
color, even if they are the same it does matter how they have appeared on your
storage and why. And the same exact sequence of bits acquired by different
means would be treated differently by the court. So most likely court will
force Brigade to return the money, at least I think it is logical to do so.
------
flerchin
If my bank accidentally paid off my entire credit card balance when I
instructed them to pay the minimum payment, I'd be glad that it's between the
bank and the credit card company. Not sure if I have an agreement with my bank
to repay them, and under what terms.
~~~
VBprogrammer
This reminds me of a story. A friend of mine once had a significant amount of
money (several thousand euro) deposited into his account accidentally. Being a
bit of a shyster he left it alone for several months but eventually started
spending it.
Some years later he got several phone calls from his bank all in a very short
period of time. His luck ran out. Apparently what had happened is that he'd
been in the bank having something changed on his account, the next person came
in to deposit money but the teller failed to change the account.
In the end they arranged a very low interest loan for him to pay back the
money over time, so in the end he probably came out ahead.
------
julienfr112
If during discovery, they found an internal email of Brigade Capital saying
"these dumbass of City send us the money !! IN FULL !! Never though we were
going to see again that Revlon money", Brigade Capital is screwed.
------
fsckboy
IANAL but have anecdotally been involved in similar law to this case where I
was told:
Courts don't issue injunctions routinely "just to freeze things and be fair
till the case plays out"; courts issue injunctions when the court considers
that the party who seeks the injunction has a good claim and has every
expectation of prevailing.
so by that measure, the judge freezing the assets means Citi has a good chance
of getting its money back.
(also, I looked up Kelly v Solari on wikipedia and the case was from 1841. I
don't think English Common Law from after US independence would apply)
~~~
ary
U.S. law is based on English Common Law.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law#United_States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law#United_States)
~~~
fsckboy
English Common Law prior to the American Revolution. Ongoing developments in
UK will not affect American law. The date of the citation is well after that.
------
Ballu
How this is different from this scenerio:
Think you send the money for mortgage payment from your brother account who
doesnt has any financial relationship wrt that mortgage (by mistake).. Plus
you pay for whole year in one transaction incl interest. Can you go back to
bank (lets take Citi for simplicity) and ask for money back and telling that
you will send for one month only with right account. How will Citi react?
------
djohnston
i dont understand how Brigade can so brazenly make off with the money here.
why would people want to work with them given this behavior?
~~~
boffinism
It's because (according to them) it's their money. It's not some random sum
coming from some stranger, it's the _exact_ amount they were owed.
------
noisy_boy
If I owe you money and my wife forgot my bag with money in your house, you
don't get to keep it just because the amount matches or I'm in bad shape.
Either I pay up as per terms and conditions and we are fair and square. If I
default, you can sue me and if the court orders to impound my assets, you get
to take/sell my stuff. Not before that.
------
dwighttk
That’s the Chance card I want to draw in Monopoly
------
rossjudson
It's probable that Brigade is not the only credit/investor involved. If Revlon
doesn't pay (or defaults), other creditors have rights too, and there are
processes to fairly distribute assets.
"Oops, we're keeping it" is an invitation to bypass those processes.
------
voices_carry
I think Citibank should be returned all the money they paid minus the owed
regular loan payment.
I also have no sympathy for them, and this seems like karmic retribution for
how they treated funds, retail investors, and mortgage holders during the
financial crisis of 2008.
~~~
dependenttypes
> how they treated funds, retail investors, and mortgage holders during the
> financial crisis of 2008.
What did they do exactly?
------
WarOnPrivacy
This story hints that huge entities aren't just predatory scumbags with
consumers but also with each other. I believe this shows how corp execs are
surrounded by unethical, profit-driven behavior. That helps shape & reinforce
their eat/be eaten world-view, that they then impose on masses of individuals
who neither live in their world nor live by their principles.
My above view is formed by a couple of things. One is years of providing IT
support for a car dealership conglomerate. Every vendor relationship existed
to extract cash from the auto-group; that goal shaped and drove the
relationship. The services provided were tokens to facilitate that goal.
Based on the car dealership world, the lifting-all-boats, capitalist ideals,
where profit drives us to better each other is a facade. The reality is that
everyone is meat. That non-predators walk into this grinder to buy their
transportation feels like cruel, dark humor.
The other thing that shapes my view is time I spent integrating new energy
tech into mansions. The projects could take months and that led to sometimes
candid conversations with the owners. One guy made his billion by baiting VC
capital into his company then shuttering his biz after funneling the capital
into his family's pockets. The VC firm also went under, with all jobs lost at
both businesses. He was especially proud of how he framed one guy on federal
charges who thought to bring attention to this. That seemed to be enough to
keep regulators at a distance.
I don't think capitalism is evil. However, experience is teaching me that
insufficiently regulated capitalism is driven by actions that are
indistinguishable from evil. Those actions typically leave enormous damage in
their wake.
------
inshadows
If Brigade Capital held account in Citibank, and the transaction credited this
account, could Citibank just revert the transaction (with fingers crossed that
no-one noticed)?
------
deeteecee
I'm a bit confused by the article. It ended with a question about whether
Brigade should keep that money but has only answered on the side of "Brigade
is wrong. They should return the money back."
------
seshagiric
I can only pity the poor chap who made the mistake. But then I would also
assume such large sums would require multiple signatures/ approvals at
Citibank which makes it strange why the error happened.
------
tmsh
Whether this is a good strategy for Brigade Capital (cons: risking reputation
with banks and the public, low chance of truly being able to keep the money,
pros: increasing reputation in some circles with investors, and giving off an
error of cut-throated-ness, 176.2 million dollars today) comes down to churn
rate.
I used to trade equities (high frequency, etc.) and I'll never forget the one
trading / programming infinite loop I had while doing some pairs trading (this
was like maybe 2005). It was with Goldman. Accidentally, went long something
like 10,000 shares of AMGN at the time. I remember it was an Amgen / Biogen
pairs trade. Clearly it was an 'out trade' or mistake. I called Goldman's desk
immediately (the trading was of course all automated). Anyway, I talk to a
Goldman trader. He looks up the order. Again, I'm long a lot more AMGN than I
should've been and it's very unusual. Back then you could call trading desks -
not sure how automated it is now... If there was an accident involved, the
fair thing to do is to "bust the trades" (originally based on trading floors,
trading pits, etc.). And lots of trading firms had these relationships with
brokers like Goldman back in the day. AMGN is trading up a bit from when these
orders came in - so I'm actually making a little money off this mistake, but I
just want to unwind / exit this mistake. He agrees. I breath a sigh of relief.
I go back to trying to figure out what stupid infinite loop triggered this
issue and make sure I'm completely out of everything (note, this was a huge
learning lesson in my programming career in terms of always building in safety
checks). 30 minutes go by and the trades aren't busted. I call Goldman back
and now am worried, as by this time Amgen stock has started to go down, so now
these trades are really hurting more and more (20k, 30k, etc. in 2005 dollars
for a young programmer/trader). Now it's in Goldman's favor and I speak to
another guy and they refuse to bust the trades.
Why do I mention this? Because again it's all a matter of churn. They made
implicitly the calculation of - is this going to jeopardize the trading
activity our firm is giving Goldman and cause us to split up? If not, if the
expected cost of churn is less than they can make via a short-term reward,
they don't care.
I now work for Amazon, and I recall Bezos saying he'd always be happy to make
up a loss for a customer instead of losing them as a customer. While I think
this is a good thing in the world, in a way it all comes down to churn (and
LTV). And the true price of your reputation for future customers based on your
reputation for treating customers.
Brigade Capital has to make that call. For me, Goldman as a company is doing
fine (despite my never trusting them again after that) - so perhaps it was the
right call for them to make (re: their culture -- certainly, an argument can
be made that they're not liable; however the other argument that they agreed
verbally to the bust and then went back on their word...).
I've since left the trading industry, and strongly believe in long-term value
/ valuing the relationship with the customer above all and, economically, the
LTV of a customer. But I'm savvy enough to know that indeed an Amazon LTV is
way way more than a single cost of an item. Now Amazon can't refund every
single order that is lapsed or it will really start to eat up LTV, but it
makes a lot of economic sense to protect the customer relationship (it's not
just being nice).
But there's always a tradeoff. Is 176.2 million worth it v. the reputation hit
and increase in churn rate for existing customers + the lowered expectation of
new customers? Perhaps for them it is. (Are they a 1B under management
company? a 100B under management company? According to wikipedia it says 35B,
so 176.2 is small relatively to them v. their reputation) In the long run,
given the difficulty in overcoming the legal aspects around this issue (i.e.,
given their chances of not winning the lawsuit) and having their public
perception be reduced for future business relationships (reputation once lost
is very difficult to regain), I doubt it.
Richard Posner was/is a big fan of the economic theory of law. In a way, there
is a market value to kindness, which is an odd thing. But the good/moral thing
is usually the more valuable thing in the long run (since we all vote with our
wallets for what we think is sustainable and good/moral/honest things are
usually more sustainable for business).
------
binbag
The financial understanding of the comments in this thread worry me.
------
rkagerer
_What do you think?_
I think if someone owes me a sh't-ton of money, I should send someone to go
work in their bank and make a serendipitous mistake.
------
dmix
I'm curious since they also paid a bunch of other people, totally 900M that it
will be a helpful argument in court to return the 177M.
------
vmception
Okay guys, so now that everyone got their silly irrelevant armchair legal
analogies out of the way:
What would you like to happen and why?
------
helsinkiandrew
I’m not sure that $900M can be called a ‘few million’ as stated in the
article.
200 or 300 million is probably the upper limit for a few?
~~~
chki
I think you misread something. The "few million" do not refer to the 900M but
instead to the interest on the loan which is actually "a few" (less than 10)
million.
------
kehphin
Why doesn’t Revlon just pay Citibank over time the remaining balance that
Citibank “paid” for them to Brigade Capital?
~~~
JoeAltmaier
Because they are likely to be bankrupt before that happens. Everybody involved
knows this, and is acting on that certainty.
------
onetimemanytime
IIRC, if a bank moves $3 million to my account, and I spend it, it's fraud.
~~~
docdeek
If I understand the article correctly, the equivalent here would be that the
bank owed you $3 million to be paid over the next 10 years but paid it all to
you today in one lump sum.
Now if they had paid you $5 million, that might leave you open to a fraud
charge if you spent it because you were never expecting that much. But if they
paid you the $3 million they were going to pay you but just 10 years early…is
it different?
That said, I reckon it’s clearly an error. ;)
~~~
matsemann
I think it would be more like: Someone owns you $3 million, and then _someone
else_ erroneously sends you $3 million.
~~~
antihero
More like, someone owes you $3m, they have a guy that comes to your house and
pays you the instalments for them. They accidentally pay you the full $3m out
of their own pocket. As far as you're concerned, that's the money owed to you,
so it's their problem to recoup that from the debtor.
~~~
stOneskull
that guy had a bad day, paying off people's debts, and all but one of the
people said 'yeah, mistakes happen, ok'. this one says 'nope, too bad'. they
might be legally right to keep it, and so would the others, but the others
care about integrity, reputation, and relationships. it seems greedy and
sociopathic to keep it but maybe the guy needs to learn from his mistake and
they're teaching an important lesson.
------
scott31
This was probably priced in when the hedge fund decided to lend the money
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Show HN: A realtime dashboard for Keras neural nets - dbranes
http://tryhera.com/
======
zo7
This looks fantastic and is something I've been wanting to make myself for
Keras! (although this way better implemented than I had imagined)
I have a model to finish and start training tonight, will definitely try this
out.
------
bbctol
Looks gorgeous. Visualization is always an underrated activity, and I think
visualizing the process of neural nets is only going to become more important
for understanding what's going on around us.
------
nharada
Nice, I love the interface to Keras. I wrote a similar application for Caffe
but my interface isn't nearly as clean.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: What are some suitable technical roles for INFP personality types? - bad_ramen_soup
======
schappim
Some suitable technical roles might include:
- Technical writer
- UX designer
- Design technologist
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The Six Million Dollar LibC (2008) - arunc
http://codingrelic.geekhold.com/2008/11/six-million-dollar-libc.html
======
revelation
I think in every modern libc implementation exception handling imposes no
extra cost on function calls. In fact, exceptions might well make code faster,
as you can take a bunch of error checks out of hot code paths. Pretty much the
only downside is the complexity of implementing exceptions for libc
maintainers and some extra space in the binary to store information that make
the stack unwinding possible, but that data is far, far away from the crucial
.text.
So exceptions are very expensive _when you cause one_ , but for free or even
an improvement when you don't.
------
vezzy-fnord
This was written back in 2008.
That said, the future of Android, at least if it is to become a self-hosting
development environment, is in musl and Toybox:
[http://landley.net/toybox/](http://landley.net/toybox/)
~~~
joezydeco
And before the NDK. I'm 100% confident termios is in the NDK because I've used
it.
------
snarfy
As a user, I find nothing encumbering about the LGPL. I'd argue it's
liberating. It might be encumbering for a developer to release a proprietary,
for profit version based off the work of others, but for a user it's great.
~~~
mindslight
My first computer running GNU/Linux: Single core, 66MHz, 8MiB RAM.
Galaxy S4 i9500: Octa-core, 1200/1600MHz, 2048MiB RAM.
That's an advancement of two orders of magnitude.
Getting rid of the GPL so the platform could be locked down is basically the
_only_ reason for Google/Android's NIH.
For all the techie mindshare, "open source" is worth about as much as
Microsoft's "shared source" \- essentially nothing when it comes to _user_
freedom.
Thank goodness for the (thoroughly pwned GPL2) kernel putting _slight_
pressure on manufacturers to be open.
~~~
sedachv
Android is the best argument for the AGPL.
~~~
RRRA
Everyone (MacOS X, Android, Jolla, etc.) is building there products, thanks to
free Software, (GPL & not GPL) and than adding proprietary wrappers to lock
things down & making sure they use non-Copyleft licences for anything else
they add as "open"-ed.
Free Software is about governance, community, open development, etc: not only
the licence! These company are just grabbing what is now infrastructure built
by everyone to sell it back to everyone, locked down, and doing code dumping
with not-so-open development and communities to trap people who don't get it.
So, since the free and open aspect could be built with Public Domain or non-
copyleft licences by a community or company doing the right thing (tm), I
agree, AGPL "all the things!" is the best way to eliminate part of this
problem.
(Yes, they can always relicence the code if they own it all, but that's the
community & open development part that is harder to evaluate...)
------
justincormack
Old article, it supports mips, mips64, arm64 now too, and there have been lots
of bug fixes, and maybe some additional support. But if you want a BSD
licensed libc, Musl is much nicer.
------
Animats
If you want to see a tiny version of libc, get the source for the original
JOVE editor, Jonathan's Own Version of EMACS, written 1983 by Jonathan Payne
while at Lincoln-Sudbury Regional High School. He was able to cram EMACS into
a PDP-11, and to make it fit, had to rewrite all the low-level libraries.
~~~
sedachv
Thanks a lot for that tip!
JOVE from 1983 as part of 2.9BSD:
[http://www.retro11.de/ouxr/29bsd/usr/contrib/jove/](http://www.retro11.de/ouxr/29bsd/usr/contrib/jove/)
JOVE circa 1988 in 2.11BSD:
[http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/PDP-11/Trees/2.11BSD/usr/src/new...](http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/PDP-11/Trees/2.11BSD/usr/src/new/jove/)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
How Australia Bungled Its $36B High-Speed Internet Rollout - bootload
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/11/world/australia/australia-slow-internet-broadband.html?_r=0
======
andrewstuart
If you posed the question "Who in the world would be the worst possible person
to decide on how to construct a nationwide high speed computer network?", the
you might come up with a list that included Tony Abbott.
I genuinely believe that Tony Abbott really didn't even understand what
purpose the Internet serves, apart from email and playing games - he saw it as
some sort of frivolous discretionary spend - definitely not anywhere near as
important as roads and mines and coal.
It's an absolute tragedy for the nation that the original plan was changed by
such ignorant luddites as Tony Abbott.
They made such an incredibly huge fuss about the cost, but only a month or two
back they handed a $23 billion corporate tax cut over to companies and it
barely made the newspaper.
I can tell you in no uncertain terms that I have not an atom of respect for
any of our politicians.
Off topic, to me all part of the same story is my absolute quivering rage that
we are literally giving away our natural resources for nothing or close to
nothing whilst every litre of natural gas that can be sucked out of the ground
is shipped to other countries.
Meanwhile the politicians ride around in helicopters, leech the taxpayer blind
with their kingly entitlements and are genuinely surprised when there is
outrage about it.
Seriously it is time for a citizens revolution. We need to take the country
back from these idiots.
~~~
fit2rule
>Seriously it is time for a citizens revolution. We need to take the country
back from these idiots.
Nothing can be done until Australians demand Constitution reform. This is the
crux of the problems with Australian politics - its Constitution is absolutely
atrocious.
~~~
cyphar
The fact we don't have a Bill of Rights (or even an equivalent to the First
Amendment) is ridiculous. But on the plus side we stopped with the ridiculous
gun-toting crap 20 years ago, so some parts of our constitution are more
reasonable than other countries.
One of the more worrying issues is that the Governor-General (and thus by
proxy the Queen of fucking England) has vito power over our laws.
~~~
Khaine
We don't need a bill of rights. I have never had anyone give me a convincing
argument on why a bill of rights is needed.
Also, its veto, not vito and the Governor General's reserve powers are a check
on the Government. In the history of the Commonwealth of Australia these
powers have been used twice: 1) On 13 May 1932, when the Governor of New South
Wales Sir Philip Game dismissed the Government of New South Wales. 2) On 11
November 1975, when the Governor-General of Australia Sir John Kerr dismissed
the Commonwealth Government.
In both cases an election was held very soon afterwards and, again in both
cases, the dismissed government was massively defeated by popular vote.
I really wish they would teach better civics in schools.
~~~
cyphar
> We don't need a bill of rights. I have never had anyone give me a convincing
> argument on why a bill of rights is needed.
We don't have any legal (let alone constitutional) right to freedom of
expression, freedom of assembly and a few other freedoms that are present in
the US bill of rights. There are some laws that provide protections for
certain kinds of political speech, but those are incredibly narrow compared to
the First Amendment in the US. In fact the only people in Australia who have
freedom of speech (even surpassing the US because libel laws don't apply to
them) is politicians in the House of Reps and Senate -- ordinary citizens
don't have those freedoms.
> I really wish they would teach better civics in schools.
To be frank we have more serious issues in our school system.
~~~
Khaine
The Australian Constitution does not explicitly protect freedom of expression.
However, the High Court has held that an implied freedom of political
communication exists as an indispensible part of the system of representative
and responsible government created by the Constitution. It operates as a
freedom from government restraint, rather than a right conferred directly on
individuals.
In Nationwide News Pty Ltd v Wills (1992) 177 CLR 1 and Australian Capital
Television Pty Ltd v the Commonwealth (1992) 177 CLR 106, the majority of the
High Court held that an implied freedom of political communication exists as
an incident of the system of representative government established by the
Constitution. This was reaffirmed in Unions NSW v New South Wales [2013] HCA
58.
This right is limited by certain laws a.k.a Section 18C of the Racial
Discrimination Act.
------
pserwylo
The government who changed away from FTTP is the more conservative (and pro
small government) of the two major parties. As such, although I disagree, I
can see why they may argue that it is not the governments responsibility to
deliver broadband infrastructure and that private industry should pick up any
slack.
However they didn't argue this.
They stuck with the concept of a nationally funded broadband network, but one
which was sub-par on almost every metric except cost. This just doesn't make
any sense to me, especially because they tried to sell it to the public by
suggesting that things like "Why invest so much in fibre when it may be
surpassed by another technology in the near future". There was also a lot of
clever wording around how their version would be "delivered cheaper, faster,
etc than the alternative" \- I have no doubt these words were chosen because
it sounds like the data rates themselves would be faster, whereas they
actually meant it the build could be completed faster.
~~~
ccakes
FTTP or FTTN aside, aiming for 93% coverage in a country as sparsely populated
as AU was a terrible idea to start with.
I understand the need to support rural areas but the the majority of the
initial budget was to cover non-metropolitan areas and while the govt has been
messing this up, private industry (TPG, First Path etc) managed to cover huge
swaths of the population with little-to-no government assistance.
~~~
spangry
This gets repeated a lot, but people seem to forget that a large part of the
continent/island [?] is inhospitable desert. Our population distribution looks
like this: [https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-
qimg-4afe2e7cc5078f81d6a999...](https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-
qimg-4afe2e7cc5078f81d6a9993b21724bb6)
About 60% of the population is clustered in 4 cities [0] and we're one of the
most urbanised countries in the world [1].
[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_Australia#Cities](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_Australia#Cities)
[1]
[https://infrastructure.gov.au/infrastructure/pab/soac/](https://infrastructure.gov.au/infrastructure/pab/soac/)
& [http://theconversation.com/density-sprawl-growth-how-
austral...](http://theconversation.com/density-sprawl-growth-how-australian-
cities-have-changed-in-the-last-30-years-65870)
------
stirlo
The biggest issue with the whole project wasn't the abandoning of FTTP and
move to MTM but the locking in of 2010 prices for the foreseeable future via a
ridiculous CVC charge that only existed to turn a profit.
The founder of one of Australia's largest independent ISP's Internode (and
later NBNco board member) Simon Hackett put it very well in 2011 where he
showed locking in a arbitrary $20 charge per megabit hobbled the network.The
whole profitability revolved around charging more for faster speeds/more data
in the future.
Every other technological advance gave users faster for cheaper whereas this
network would only work if people paid more. Cut to the future and now you've
got competition from 4G cellular data at the low end and private companies
providing private fibre/wireless networks at the top end. The whole pyramid is
coming crashing down so much that the government has had to introduce a new
broadband tax ($7.10 per month) to subsidize it.
And even the tax won't solve the problems because the CVC usage charge still
exists and the business case still resolves around charging more in the
future. In about 5 years when they realize what a stuff up it's been we can
only help they write it all off and we can go back having affordable fast
internet like the rest of the world.
[https://simonhackett.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/commsday-w-...](https://simonhackett.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/commsday-
w-and-dc-hackett-2013.pdf)
[https://blog.internode.on.net/2011/07/21/nbn-retail-
pricing-...](https://blog.internode.on.net/2011/07/21/nbn-retail-pricing-
pressure-points/)
~~~
spangry
Yep Hackett called it right. He put his money where his mouth was too: he sold
his ISP to iiNet/iiBorg (who were subsequently consumed by TPG) and got the
fuck outta dodge. It's a pity; Internode was possibly the best ISP in the
country.
~~~
voltagex_
Internode's sort of okay still. TPG routes are slower though. I have unlimited
FTTP NBN, static IPv4 and a v6 /56 for $110 a month.
~~~
spangry
Man, that's pretty nice. Looking at the TPG plan page I'm guessing that's at
100/40? What's bandwidth contention like? I know TPG cop a bit of flak on
whirlpool, but for the 2 or so years I had ADSL with them I never had a
problem...
When you say v6 /56, does that mean you can have 4,722,366,482,869,645,213,696
addressable hosts? [I don't CIDR gud...]
~~~
girvo
Ive got TPG FTTB, 100/50 that actually runs at 100/100, which is awesome. I
had their ADSL2, that ran at 23 down. Of course I live in the middle of
Brisanes tech hub (ish), so I'm lucky.
"Whingepool" have their nickname for a reason ;)
------
grizzles
I have a personal perspective on this. Around 2014 or so, I + some of
Australia's top physicists designed and quickly prototyped some tech to lower
the cost of the NBN rollout bigtime. Our approach revolved around self install
fibre + a far greater use of wireless.
I contacted 15+ people in senior leadership at NBNco, all of whom are still on
my LinkedIn. No matter how hard I tried, we couldn't get a meeting with NBNco
execs to demo our tech.
I took it to the local tech press here to get some positive coverage and they
told us repeatedly how "stupid" we were. We wrote comments on the now PM (then
Communications Minister)'s blog and chatted to his people. Zero interest. At
that point they'd been at it for ~7 years, spent billions and had pretty much
nothing to show for it. Nada.
Last year, an academic completely unaffiliated with us testified at a
parliamentary committee into why the existing approach has been such a
boondoggle. As a remedy, he suggested our exact approach. He also copped it
from the tech press.
Here are a couple tweets from that period between me and an online tech
pundit. This Renai LeMay fellow runs Australia's most influential tech site,
it's very very popular with Australia's politicians:
[https://twitter.com/renailemay/status/705523306699423744](https://twitter.com/renailemay/status/705523306699423744)
[https://twitter.com/renailemay/status/705528311330385920](https://twitter.com/renailemay/status/705528311330385920)
Such is the life of the serial entrepreneur. This is the typical bs that we
have to put up with. I folded that company up pretty fast. Idea tested. NEXT.
~~~
nl
I'm sure your technology is great, but I suspect you aren't seeing it through
your (potential) customer's eyes.
If you seriously don't understand why that solution could never have been
politically feasible then to be honest it isn't surprising you were ignored.
Additionally, did you really suggest that people should be able to dig their
own trenches and plug fibre in themselves? You do realize that does nothing to
make you seem credible, right?
~~~
grizzles
We suggested and could show that the tech can be completely plug and play, and
support any logical network topology. There is no installer risk because power
doesn't run over optical fiber. It's a big misconception that you need
specialized installers. You don't. And it's the labor cost that is responsible
for biggest chunk of the expense in building a country wide broadband network.
As I said in the linked tweet, you could hire the handyman down the street to
do it, or you could pay the major contractor Ericsson 100X as much per
property to do it. If they somehow screw up plugging something into something
else, it just doesn't work - it doesn't affect the integrity of the network at
all.
In my opinion, it's the existing approach that lacks credibility. It's
corporate welfare. That's why Australia's broadband lags behind Turkey,
Poland, Mexico, and many others even though it's a much richer country per
capita than all of those.
The funny thing was when we came onto the scene the most interest we got was
from Ericsson, with some email discussions and heaps of their people showing
up on my profiles, etc. That was flattering but apparently they needn't have
worried about us spoiling their cash cow. I can understand their paranoia.
Life must be sweet when you own 100% of the purported supply.
------
marak830
I was born and raised in Australia, I left for Japan just as the NBN was
beginning to roll out.
It's an absolute disgrace how much it has been butchered. I have thoughts
about returning occasionally, but going from 2 GB/s unlimited for Aus$ 40 ish
a month, back to those speeds and prices is a major factor for me staying
here.
It is a massive quality of life difference to have amazing internet.
~~~
Smerity
As an Australian now living in San Francisco paying $55 per month for 100/100
(WebPass, which would be the same price but 500/500 or 1000/1000 if I moved to
a newer building), I have the exact same feeling.
When I journey back home and stay with my parents, it is impossible to get
work done. Latency is the first killer - it'll never properly be solved if
you're working with remote systems in the US or Europe - but then upload
speeds slowly rip at your soul. Download speeds and quotas are no picnic
either of course.
That Australia didn't end up with a future proof fibre to the home system
given the amount of money spent is an absolute disgrace. I get angry every
time I have to discuss it.
I wanted to move back to Australia sooner than later - and the FTTH NBN
promised interesting start-up and other opportunities - but given it has been
relegated to a copper backwater those plans are on indefinite hold :(
I usually point people to the Australian government debate regarding copper
wire over iron wire from 1910 as an anachronistic comparison.
[https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2013/06/parliament-arguing-
about-...](https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2013/06/parliament-arguing-about-copper-
wires-in-1910-makes-for-some-amazing-reading/)
~~~
gaelian
> but then upload speeds slowly rip at your soul
I know the feeling. I'm relatively lucky in that I live somewhere that has had
VDSL for some time and my download speed is adequate, if not ideal. But my
upload speed is atrocious, in fact actually _slower now_ than it was in past
years (before my ISP got bought out by a bigger ISP) and my ISP will not
guarantee any particular upload speed for my connection. I make use of a
cloud-based backup service to mitigate the possibility of local disk failure
and it's just painful.
You hardly hear anyone talking about upload speeds in Australia. It's as if
cloud-based services aren't really a thing and we're back in the early 2000s.
> That Australia didn't end up with a future proof fibre to the home system
> given the amount of money spent is an absolute disgrace. I get angry every
> time I have to discuss it.
I know this feeling as well. :) It is a massive lost opportunity that the
country will be paying for in more ways than one for decades to come.
------
craigvn
As an Australian, I think it can be summed up by two reasons.
1\. All large scale infrastructure rollouts are difficult and subject to
problems and blowouts.
2\. It was made a political issue. New government decided to make major
revamps for no reason other than it was different to the previous government
so they could use it as an election issue.
~~~
flukus
> New government decided to make major revamps for no reason other than it was
> different to the previous government so they could use it as an election
> issue.
The worst part was the nationals. In 2007 they were bitching that it needed to
be fiber, by 2010 they were saying copper is the future.
~~~
beedogs
Not just copper. 100-year-old waterlogged copper. We prefer our transmission
lines to be well-aged down here.
------
ajdlinux
I'm lucky enough to live in an area where I can get ~70-80Mb/s down and
~30-50Mbps up VDSL2 for a (by Australian standards) reasonable price.
My suburb, unfortunately, hasn't been NBN-ified - but we still have a VDSL
network courtesy of TransACT, the broadband provider that was created when the
ACT Government decided to start laying FTTC fibre around Canberra back in the
1990s.
There's a lot of talk of locally-driven "municipal broadband" in the US, but
very little in Australia. I expect that's mostly because local governments in
Australia are far less powerful than in the United States (which, for the most
part, I'm actually okay with) and wouldn't be able to raise taxes and spend
them on broadband projects. The Australian Capital Territory, of course, is a
special case - a local government with state-level powers, who already owned
an electricity network when they decided to go into FTTN as well.
------
bootload
The NBN is a tale of geography. If you live in the CBD mainland capital city
you will get good coverage. Even that it's patchy. If you live more than 30km
out access get mostly worse. If you live in the bush, the best you'll get is
crappy satellite or your own jury rigged antenna to the nearest town.
If you were lucky enough to a) live close to the city b) have telephone poles
c) live near a telephone exchange and were chosen by Telstra to get FTTN
before the change of government you can get 100Mb+ access. [0] Otherwise you
are out of luck.
This is largely a political issue that could be fixed by leadership. Australia
has weak leaders of both sides of the political spectrum.
Market forces are supposed to fix this problem according to our learned
leaders, but it won't. Australia is big, really big and we needed a federally
funded optic fibre solution to the country even if it cost a lot.
Here's my version of NBN... Exchange->fibre->POTS
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/tags/pots
Using technology developed during the early 1900s.
[0] Relative has NBN fibre to the node.
~~~
simonrobb
I live five minutes' walk from the Melbourne CBD, and we have no indication
NBN is going to be rolled out here any time soon.
~~~
bootload
I did say patchy.
------
botbot
Australian here.
I was recently forced from my ADSL2+ service over to the shiny new HFC system.
My quality actually degraded - although my bandwidth increased, my latency is
off the charts, especially in peak time. I contacted my ISP to see if I could
go back to my ADSL2+ service and they flat out said no.
The future is bleak.
~~~
Veratyr
Which ISP and where is the latency though? It could be that your ISP has
congestion on NBN but not on ADSL2+? Not necessarily the NBN's fault.
~~~
botbot
This is true, but cable networks tend to degrade because of the way bandwidth
is shared compared to DSL connections, and actually gets worse with higher
adoption rates. It has to do with where the connection is actually
multiplexed.
Check out the section 'Shared Bandwidth' on wiki:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable_Internet_access](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable_Internet_access)
Check out this comparison: [http://www.bestbuy.com/site/tech-tips/compare-
cable-dsl/pcmc...](http://www.bestbuy.com/site/tech-tips/compare-cable-
dsl/pcmcat748301881084.c?id=pcmcat748301881084)
And check out the post by Net_Sharing in this forum:
[http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r28980221-Speed-Does-
cable-b...](http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r28980221-Speed-Does-cable-
broadband-really-get-shared-with-the-neighborhood)
------
cyphar
Yeah, shit's fucked. To be fair though, it's not like Labor would've delivered
on their promises either.
Honestly the whole thing smells very strongly of a money-making racket on the
part of Telstra (how much money did the CEOs profit from the privatisation
only to sell their 100-year-old waterlogged copper back to the government?).
------
shusson
> Average speeds have more than doubled since 2013, according to Akamai, but
> other countries are connecting their populations faster, meaning Australia’s
> lag with the rest of the world has grown.
The article is very light on numbers. It would be nice to actually see solid
metrics around speeds and costs across the whole of Australia.
------
davidgerard
The actual answer: it was directly sabotaged by the Liberal National Party
(the conservatives), at the bidding of Rupert Murdoch, who _really_ doesn't
want Australian internet not to suck.
Basically, Tony Abbott got in in 2013 and the shitty version of the scheme was
put into place.
------
runeks
Do we have any examples of successful, nation-wide, high-speed Internet
rollouts by governments (for countries roughly size-wise comparable to
Australia)?
It's an honest question, because I'm not familiar with any.
------
znedw
Currently I pay AUD$79 per month for the privilege of 1.4mbp/s down and
100kp/s up. My area is slated for the NBN, albiet HFC (using old coaxial) to
commence building in 2019. Bloody bonza, mate.
~~~
fliptables
I'd take HFC over FTTN. Last time I lived with DSL I enjoyed the same kind of
speeds you're getting and three visits from Telstra minions came out to
"sorry, nothing we can do". I'm in no hurry to play that phone-line lottery
again.
------
i336_
For people actually sad about the NBN: this mentions that people who want
1Gbps "will have an upgrade option" (I think they said it something like
that). This was from Feb 12 this year.
[http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/downloadthissho...](http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/downloadthisshow/nbn/8276824)
~~~
boyter
Unless you are on FTTN which will comprise more than 60% of the network and
are only guaranteed up-to 12 mbit for the coexistence period and 25 mbit
after. Unless you happen to be connected to a node less than 50m away (most
will be over 400m) there is no chance your connection will support that
option.
~~~
i336_
-_-
Wow :(
This is insane. We're getting laser beams, and they're literally going to be
worse than cable!
I wonder if NBN Co would agree to do a FTTH setup if I covered the fiber and
installation.
Hmm. They might, but then I could be stuck with a $200+/mo Internet bill...
_Shakes head_ ...this is just infuriating, how completely this has been mis-
sold and bungled.
~~~
boyter
There is a technology choice program to upgrade to FTTP which was promised to
cost less than $5000. A quote costs a non refundable $600 and the estimates I
have seen have all been in the tens of thousands of dollars. About 20 people
have taken the option so far.
~~~
i336_
Aaand now I'm even more depressed and kind of infuriated.
I'm just looking for personal-use Internet, and I wanted to join all the cool
people with their 1Gbps for $40/mo or whatever they have.
I don't even need a guaranteed SLA, I'm fine with consumer-grade "fair share"
bandwidth QoS and stuff.
Seems to me that the NBN Co is merely a sort of centralized rebranding that
doesn't really create a competitive advantage.
Can someone help me understand why Australia seems to be so unbelievably
backward in terms of advanced technology? I mean, I know there are some decent
tech projects here: the CSIRO's antenna array is fairly crazy, I remember
seeing SuSE when the news was doing a thing on NOAA about a decade ago, if you
ever see a tram's info dashboard reboot you'll see it's based on Ubuntu, the
rail transport project being built near where I live is completely driverless,
and NSW's existing/legacy rail network is so heavily fiber based, if you look
carefully at stations you can see there are fiber drops where you'd usually
expect RJ45 (!). That's just what I've seen, but it shows that competent
installations exist here.
But the thing is, I reiterate the above because I need reassurance that
Australians actually have brains (I say that as one), because the "IT tax" and
the Internet situation here and related issues are all just monumentally
_stupid_ and frankly an embarassment.
The government doesn't isn't making the bold changes needed to get a Silicon
Valley in here fast enough, if you ask me.
(PS. With the fiber drops w/ Transport for NSW - this was easy because the
fiber can run alongside the tracks; and I figured out fiber is being done to
get infrastructural latency to zero.)
~~~
boyter
Politics is the answer with regards to communications. I suspect that may also
be the case for other technology in Australia.
The only reason Australia needed a NBN was because of the sale of Telstra as a
vertically integrated monopoly. It should have been split from the start into
wholesale and retail as happened in New Zealand. Apparently they were starting
to roll out fibre when the sale was announced. It was politically good to sell
it as a single unit at the time.
Then when the NBN was announced the opposition and specifically Tony Abbot
lacked the vision to see the value and believed that it was just an advanced
video game system. Given the power I believe he would have stopped the build
entirely. Instead he handed it over to Malcom to "fix". Malcom in order to
remain on the cabinet and hopefully push to become prime minister did as
ordered and "destroyed" the NBN. The result is what we currently have. The
present government cannot fix it because Malcom hung his entire political
career on the NBN and to admit that it isn't working would be political
suicide for the present government.
This issue seems to occur all over the world where you have fixed terms in
politics and politicians who lack the guts to do what is right because they
only need to do enough to get re-elected and long term plans are off the
table.
~~~
buyx
_This issue seems to occur all over the world where you have fixed terms in
politics and politicians who lack the guts to do what is right because they
only need to do enough to get re-elected and long term plans are off the
table_
I thought Australia doesn't have fixed terms federally?
~~~
boyter
You are correct. What I meant is that they have only a short amount of time
around 3 years which is generally not enough to pull off large infrastructure
projects as most governments only last 2 terms and the opposition claims
credit if it was successful.
------
verytrivial
An entirely predictable shambles. This money should have been spent on
Australian skills and content, not on installing damn cables and routers. Let
the market decide how to meet demand for content delivery -- education and
social investment are far better places for governments to place these sorts
of long bets. I saw this coming a mile away and have a long list of poo-pooed
complaints on social media to this effect.
------
suspectdoubloon
At least the South Australian goverment is doing something to alleviate issues
of the NBN in Adelaide. Launching 10 gigabit internet across key areas in the
CBD.
[http://gigcity.com.au/](http://gigcity.com.au/)
------
antihero
In the UK we mostly have FTTC and copper to our property. I'm in London
admittedly, but I get 220Mbps/20Mpbs solidly, so copper isn't all bad _if_ you
have fibre running to a cabinet that's close to you.
~~~
noir_lord
Up in Hull they went FTTP instead FTTC, I can have gig internet at home, they
finally did something right, its not cheap but it's not expensive for what it
is either.
------
mingabunga
Related: Hosting in Aus is ridiculously expensive too
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10985137](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10985137)
------
spangry
Hilariously, the conservative government currently in power made the following
election campaign promises [0] [1] in 2013 (the election where they won
government):
\- _Every household and business to have access to broadband with a download
data rate of between 25 and 100 megabits per second by late 2016._ [We're
currently trailing Kenya]
\- _Key prices for a Coalition NBN will be capped nationally, ensuring
Australians in metropolitan and regional areas alike can obtain services at
fair prices._ [For the low low price of $80 a month, on a 24 month contract,
you can get 25Mbps/5Mbps from our two largest telcos: Telstra & Optus] [2] [3]
\- _"...unshackle the competitive telecom market that Labor tried to stamp
out, and reduce the cost of the NBN to prudent levels."_ [Because of the NBN
wholesale cost structure and network inter-connect structure, our retail ISPs
are rapidly consolidating. We're likely to have three left standing by the
end. To be fair, the latter wasn't the current government's fault.]
\- _They would complete the network roll-out at 2 /3 the cost of the previous
plan._ [The Parliamentary Budget Office estimated in December 2016 that the
total network cost will be $49 billion. However, the current government did
make the _entirely unsubstantiated and unquestioned_ claim that the $44B plan
for FTTP was actually going to cost $90B.] [4]
So, things seem to be going to plan so far. The worst part about all this is
that everyone seemed to eat this shit right up at the time. Even Australia's
tech so-called 'journalists' were all going on about how the Coalition had
presented a 'credible alternative'.
We deserve this, because we're stupid.
[0] PDF of election document:
[https://www.communications.gov.au/file/315/download?token=8O...](https://www.communications.gov.au/file/315/download?token=8OjaNaNc)
[1] HTML cached version:
[https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Ih8ycW...](https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Ih8ycWOkmRkJ:https://www.communications.gov.au/file/315/download%3Ftoken%3D8OjaNaNc+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au)
[2] [https://www.telstra.com.au/broadband/nbn/nbn-
plans](https://www.telstra.com.au/broadband/nbn/nbn-plans)
[3] [http://www.optus.com.au/shop/broadband/home-
broadband/plans?...](http://www.optus.com.au/shop/broadband/home-
broadband/plans?bt=FBB&tl=FTEL#Plans)
[4] [http://www.news.com.au/national/nbn-cost-blowout-to-
impact-b...](http://www.news.com.au/national/nbn-cost-blowout-to-impact-
budget/news-story/2db99cc39d5f9b337e9c8cdba64671eb)
------
swrobel
Can anyone from New Zealand comment on whether the same problems exist there?
It's even more geographically isolated so I'd expect that to be the case, but
who knows.
------
Khaine
The NBN was almost always going to end in failure, as the biggest impediment
to Australian internet is the lack of overseas links, and the cost of using
these links.
------
ParadisoShlee
[http://isthenbnfastyet.com/](http://isthenbnfastyet.com/)
------
Frogolocalypse
So they promoted the guy who screwed up the project, Malcolm Turnbull, to be
Prime Minister.
~~~
i336_
The lead singer in Midnight Oil sung "How do we sleep / While our beds are
burning" in 1987... and in 2009 the same person (Peter Garret), in his
position as Minister for Environment Protection (among other things), was the
driving force behind a home-insulation scheme that was found to be the cause
of 224 house fires.
You basically have to have a humorectomy to be able to follow Australian
politics. Otherwise you go crazy from too much cracking up.
\--
Some qualifying info to add some substance so this isn't just hyperbole and
commentary:
\- IIRC, what was happening is that the installers weren't being paid enough,
and they were nailing the insulation haphazardly without identifying where the
240V lines ran underneath the batts so they could dodge those areas with their
staple guns. Said insulation batts had foil on them. So sparks flew where wood
met aluminium and exposed/partially-shorted wiring. Even more tragically, four
installers were also electrocuted (AFAIK/IIUC) by live foil on the batts
during installation.
\- Mr Garret was actually really mature about the situation and took full
responsibility, stated that he wasn't fully informed about various risks, and
did raise issues about safety multiple times that were not listened to. So
there's that.
Some random sources/articles I found:
[http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/peter-
garre...](http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/peter-garrett-
tells-royal-commission-he-was-responsible-for-batts-rollout/news-
story/6045bce27f3fbd63ecd5fd5537bc93e4)
[http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-
news/peter-...](http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/peter-
garrett-was-in-charge-of-home-insulation-program-mark-
arbib-20140512-zr9zr.html)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Garrett](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Garrett)
~~~
flukus
> was the driving force behind a home-insulation scheme that was found to be
> the cause of 224 house fires.
House fires went down statistically. The absolute number of fires was higher
because more homes were getting insulation, but fires per insulated home went
down.
The real cause is business efficiency, hiring cheaper workers and not training
them properly. You can't hold the government responsible for every grunt a
private business hires. You don't hear the current lot taking direct
responsibility for the recent shooting in our offshore detention facilities.
Edit - in hindsight it's a perfect example of how "fake news" isn't a recent
problem.
~~~
i336_
>> was the driving force behind a home-insulation scheme that was found to be
the cause of 224 house fires.
> _House fires went down statistically. The absolute number of fires was
> higher because more homes were getting insulation, but fires per insulated
> home went down._
Oh. I didn't know that. So you mean this occurred after the installation...?
> _The real cause is business efficiency, hiring cheaper workers and not
> training them properly. You can 't hold the government responsible for every
> grunt a private business hires._
Absolutely, yeah. I was trying to get at that idea but didn't quite articulate
it. (Thanks.)
> _You don 't hear the current lot taking direct responsibility for the recent
> shooting in our offshore detention facilities._
Indeed :/
(I have to admit I honestly just don't understand why the offshore detention
system has to be the way that it is. But this is largely due to my ignorance
of the various variables and difficulties of the situation.)
~~~
flukus
The fires occur after the installation, 50% occur within 10 days of
installation, here is a very long and detailed analysis (with some CSIRO
analysis as well): [https://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollytics/2011/04/24/the-
csiro-g...](https://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollytics/2011/04/24/the-csiro-gets-
hip-to-debunking-media-hysteria/)
~~~
i336_
Wow, this is great. Thanks for the link!
------
d_t_w
Country is a basket case politically, lowest calibre of politician I have ever
encountered. A profound paucity of talent across the board and absolutely no
end in sight to the endless stupidity.
You can think of the shit infrastructure, crap attitude in general, and
intellectually bankrupt waste that make up the political class as the many
layers of tax on any high cognitive business in Australia.
Coal is the future apparently. Don't even get me started on the racists.
~~~
dang
Please don't post nationalistic rants here. I get that this one is probably
the clean-up-our-own-house kind, but that subtlety doesn't work on the
internet.
~~~
d_t_w
This is the place to comment on the article about how political incompetency
hobbled Australia's broadband, right?
I understand if you are Australian and find the criticism uncomfortable, but
it's a fair reflection of my experience.
My intent wasn't to suggest X is better than Australia, rather to inform the
readership of HN that the political paralysis and ineptitude in this country
is in no way limited to a single broadband project.
~~~
dang
Right, and I get that your intention was positive, but "basket
case...shit...crap" doesn't count as "inform", and it's only by chance that
you didn't provoke aggrieved responses, a.k.a. flamewars. The thread went far
off-topic as it was.
~~~
d_t_w
I'm sorry to inform you that the internet is not an anodyne safe-place.
Consider your emotional reaction and continued need to engage, down this off-
topic path.
~~~
AnimalMuppet
Um, dang is one of the moderators here. Trying to shut town off-topic rants
that lead to flamewars is part of his job. He's engaging because he's trying
to educate _you_ on how people are expected to behave on HN. (And it's good
that he tries, rather than just banning you. And it's good that he keeps
calling out and shutting down garbage; HN is trying to hold on as a place
where you can have an intelligent conversation rather than drowning in
insanity.)
~~~
d_t_w
If he's a moderator, he can shut this thread down if he likes.
In my opinion my experience adds some context. On reflection I'd be happy to
change 'crap' for terrible and so on, but I can't edit that (historical time-
out I guess).
Now, if you'll excuse me, my comment has actually spawned a really
interesting, intelligent conversation with an Australian about the conduct of
the main protagonist of this article, and I don't have any more commentary to
add on this point.
------
cylinder
It'll be fine.
~~~
beedogs
Yeah, nah.
------
dibbsonline
It's about $5000 in tax per household to fund a $38B rollout, and you don't
get a choice. That's the unfunded half-ass costed guesstimate which was
largely skewed by politicians to make it look better. Why not let people
choose to spend $5k on fibre if they want?
The majority of connections opt for 12 or 25mbit anyway, sorry couldn't find
url for nbnco statistic.
Technically, dropping billions on fibre in this day and age is stupid given
that so much (vast majority) of the population is already in areas that can
get faster IP (over 100mbit) from LTE, wireless technology is the future,
imagine if it was spent on LTE sites.
Many people use the argument only fibre can do it, when that's just
intellectual dishonesty about different types of layer 1.
4 million of Australia's households (roughly half) already have HFC that when
upgraded will do gigabit.
It is illegal to compete with NBN.
The NBN was unfunded in its commitment. The same party implemented a $20b/year
national disability insurance scheme which was also not funded. All these
arguments saying it was bungled, but only the hollow commitments of the
unionist/socialist party that implemented this were bungled. A lot of the
angry people also don't pay a lot of net tax either which is the usual
narrative of the ALP.
So it wasn't properly costed or funded, all these great things that party
promised in power, but they still lost the next election anyway, so the people
spoke.
Also NYT is fake news. :)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Adjusted age-specific case fatality ratio during the Covid-19 epidemic in Hubei [pdf] - dougmwne
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.04.20031104v1.full.pdf
======
dougmwne
Submission Comment: This is one of the first papers I've seen that combines
data from China and the Diamond Princess to account for delayed mortality,
under-counted cases and asymptomatic cases. Link to the data and code on
Github:
[https://github.com/jriou/covid_adjusted_cfr](https://github.com/jriou/covid_adjusted_cfr)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Lessons learned from writing and launching a WebApp in 23 days - Wildfalcon
http://wildfalcon.com/archives/2011/01/07/lessons-learned-from-writing-and-launching-a-webapp-in-23-days/
======
alanfalcon
I wonder if 30daysyoanewhabit.com wouldn't be a better URL than
habitualapp.com? Then again it does sound very infomercial-ish.
I'm one of those people who won't use it as a Facebook thing. Give me a
Twitter login and option to have my progress reported there and I'd give it a
whirl.
~~~
fhars
Habitualapp is at least composed of recognizable lexemes, while 30 Days Yoanne
Wabbit sounds more like a failed Loony Toons fanfic site.
So, no, I think your proposal is even worse than the original as it allow too
many ambiguous parses.
------
riffraff
sorry, if I have to spam my facebook contacts to start doing something, I'm
not going to use it.
~~~
Wildfalcon
I expect hacker news readers to take this line. However most non-techies tell
me this is the feature they love most about the app. I guess different things
work for different people
~~~
statictype
I also really want to use this app - it's like the Seinfeld calendar - but the
Facebook login turned me away.
I can understand, though, how this would be a selling point for 'normal'
people.
Is there anyway to turn off the 'tell everyone on facebook about this' feature
if I login using my FB account?
~~~
Wildfalcon
Yes, this is a very much requested change, so I'm going to move it to top of
my list
I just created a MailChimp list so if you sign up (<http://eepurl.com/caXRn>)
I will send out a newsletter when its done
------
danielh
The layout is a bit off for me (FF 3.6.13, Mac OS X). Screenshot:
<http://imgur.com/dHYGY>
~~~
Wildfalcon
Thanks, I will take a look at it over the weekend :-)
------
inovica
Getting a database error here. Some new lessons to learn on receiving large
numbers of visitors from Hacker News?
~~~
Wildfalcon
Totally! :-)
I just tweaked the server settings and I think its holding up now, fingers
corssed
------
lazyfunctor
I'll surely give it a try as I plan to learn tennis. What's the stack you are
using and where is it hosted?
------
bobbywilson0
Did you open the floodgates for anyone to sign up or did you do a limited beta
launch first?
------
jpcx01
url is dead already
~~~
Wildfalcon
The server is struggling under the load a bit. I will see what I can do.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Show HN: Mothereffinanimatedgif - twakefield
http://mothereffinganimatedgif.com/
======
paulirish
Conceived of, developed, designed, and launched in 24 hours:
<https://github.com/paulirish/lazyweb-requests/issues/53>
Tech: HTML5 drag n drop, FileReader, a[download], GIF encoding on the client,
BlobBuilder, postMessage, <input type=range> (with Firefox polyfill),
appcache, transforms, etc. Oh! and the aforementioned * { box-sizing : border-
box; }
~~~
pacomerh
This is inspiring, a client side tool like this to compose press-kits would be
nice for media O.o
------
VMG
Whenever I have to drop images on a webpage see something happen, I close the
tab.
I don't have a bunch of images lying around that have the right size and that
I'd feel comfortable sharing.
~~~
paulirish
It's all clientside, so there's no risk here of sharing. But it's cool,
hombre.
Here's what someone else just made with it <http://twitpic.com/8kyup2>
~~~
VMG
I can't know that the files aren't transferred somewhere without thoroughly
inspecting the source and it isn't obvious from the page that this is an
offline app.
Thanks for the example. It would be great if the page itself linked to some
demonstrations.
~~~
NanoWar
It has (now) the following in the top bar: "Drag + Drop, Client-side, Animated
GIF Creator"
~~~
brk
Ah, yeah, so now it's totally safe because it says so right there on the page.
The points raised in higher-up comments are still relevant... It's impossible
to know for sure exactly what will happen with my images that I Drag n Drop.
Of course, for a 24 hour effort, it's great. But this is the 80/20 rule at
play. The first 80% was the "easy" bit. Now you have to create some demoes,
tutorials, earn user trust, etc.
I don't have a lot of need for animated GIFs personally, but this seems like a
neat little tool.
------
XLcommerce
Just fyi:
uses filereader. There is a bad (crashing) memory leak in Chrome.
Bug report here:
[http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=114548...](http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=114548&thanks=114548&ts=1329369049)
Beware if you intend to use filreader to read many large files. Allocated mem
never gets released.
Spent 2 days getting a html5 client side image resizer/uploader only to hit
this killer bug.
Had to use Flash in the end, which by the way performs like a demon on binary
data.
~~~
paulirish
Just threw your bug report over to our FileReader engineer. Thx for filing!
~~~
XLcommerce
No worries. I was v. disappointed when I had to fall back on flash for
resizing. Felt great having client side image resize and upload (with
progress) without using flash.
------
stefankendall
The 24-hour conception to launch is more impressive than the end-result, which
is still pretty damned impressive.
------
jmah
Why is Safari not supported?
~~~
paulirish
no FileReader support in Safari 5.1, which is used to enable the drag 'n drop
image reading. A "Nightly WebKit" build (which is basically Nightly Safari)
works though.
Behind the scenes, I'm alpha-testing a new API for mapping feature detects to
browsers, so you can say what features you need and get an automated response
for what browsers they'll work in. (Another lazyweb project actually):
<https://github.com/paulirish/lazyweb-requests/issues/39>
~~~
literalusername
How about Firefox 9.0.1? It works for me in Chromium, but in Firefox the
dropped image doesn't even appear on the deck.
------
rbrcurtis
Very cool. But you need to fix it for transparent gifs; they just stack on top
of each other and need to clear the previous.
------
ChrisArchitect
pretty neat -- way to step up 'team behind lazyweb-request#53'
tested it out with whatever I had handy: Mother Effing Mountain Lion
<http://i.imgur.com/oRFRA.gif>
------
manveru
No Opera support :(
------
zsherman
Seriously, that's awesome.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Get your Google calendar into tmux - mzehrer
https://blog.hauck.io/get-your-google-calendar-into-tmux/
======
anc84
FYI: Your blog only shows a spinner unless the user allows Javascript for no
reason at all.
~~~
hauck-d
Hey, thanks, Yesterday I changed the theme, which does this... thanks for the
hint! ;)
~~~
blfr
You also don't advertise your RSS feed[1] in the headers (or otherwise).
[1] [https://blog.hauck.io/feed/](https://blog.hauck.io/feed/)
~~~
hauck-d
Ok, I switched back to the non premium version, I got RSS-Feed back again and
no weird scrolling stuff :)
Thanks for the hint!
------
andmarios
As a sidenote, gcalcli is the best way to manage your google calendar. I
always found creating calendar entries through apps or web such a nuisance
that I just didn't bother.
~~~
hauck-d
Same to me but with owncloud or davical. But now I needed to use gcal for
work. Graphical nonsensestuff ...
------
Ianvdl
This is really useful. I've always wondered (but never bothered to search) if
there was a cli interface for Google calendar. Integrating it into tmux is a
nice bonus.
I really should setup my gmail account in mutt, it could save me a lot of alt-
tabbing time.
------
hobarrera
Also on topic: khal is a pretty good cli calendar app:
https://github.com/geier/khal/
It's designed to work with CalDAV, though IIRC, google is moving away from
standard protocols and onto their own, regrettably.
------
niix
Unfortunately, I couldn't get this to work. Here is the traceback:
[http://hastebin.com/yibusifogi.vhdl](http://hastebin.com/yibusifogi.vhdl)
Also, nice function name `BowChickaWowWow` :)
~~~
otaasni
Looks like you may need to upgrade six (dependency of the Google API library).
`pip install six --upgrade` may do the trick
------
tshadwell
Your bash looks like something that can be fixed by a well-placed sed one-
liner :)
~~~
hauck-d
Yes, I know, I will give it a try, and update my post ;) Thanks!
------
jandudulski
Oh my god, this is awesome! I guess it would became my fav command line tool.
------
ChuckMcM
Now to hook it up to twilio and get my sms notifications back.
------
MrGando
You mention:
> Be sure to replace GOOGLE_USERNAME with your accountname(everything in front
> of @gmail.com).
Where are you replacing GOOGLE_USERNAME?
~~~
MrGando
Figured it out
set -g status-right '📅 #(gcalcli --nostarted --calendar "GOOGLE_USERNAME"
agenda --nocolor | cut -d " " -f 4- | head -2 | tail -1 | sed "s/^ *//g" | sed
"s/ / /g" | cut -c1-19)'
------
stickperson
Getting a "daily limit exceeded" error from the Google API client.
~~~
otaasni
Hi, we are working on getting that lifted (I'm one of the maintainers.) Right
now you're best bet is to sign up for your own API key/secret and supply those
via either a config file or command line arguments:
--client_id API client_id
--client_secret API client_secret
See
[https://github.com/insanum/gcalcli/issues/65#issuecomment-13...](https://github.com/insanum/gcalcli/issues/65#issuecomment-13911462)
for details on how to get those.
~~~
stickperson
Hey, thanks for the info. I've tried that, but now I get a "Error:
redirect_uri_mismatch" error.
edit: I got it working. When creating a new client id, you need to choose
"Installed application" as the application type.
------
faarzein
hmmm interesting
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Why Do I Teach? - kafkaesque
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/05/22/why-do-i-teach/
======
tokenadult
Gutting's writings are criticized by Jerry Coyne from time to time,
[http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2013/01/22/an-
increa...](http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2013/01/22/an-increasingly-
common-argument-of-religionists-and-faitheists/)
and I think that is something to keep in mind while pondering Gutting's
rationale for his college teaching.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The Link Between Startups and Privilege - toufiqbarhamov
https://daily.jstor.org/the-link-between-startups-and-privilege/
======
nannotequalnan
THANK YOU. Privilege plays a huge role in entrepreneurship, and it does a
disservice to the vast majority that do not have privilege, to pretend like
startups are a true meritocracy.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Plastic Rain Is the New Acid Rain - headalgorithm
https://www.wired.com/story/plastic-rain-is-the-new-acid-rain/
======
goblin89
How much microplastic pollution hazard does PLA, the filament commonly used in
3D printing, pose?
As far as degradation goes, PLA is essentially like other plastics unless it’s
specifically biodegraded in somewhat extreme conditions. However, does it shed
micro- or nanoplastics, and if so how intensely? Relevant research is sparse.
~~~
plerpin
I think the amount of discarded plastic from water bottles dwarfs 3D printed
filament by many, many orders of magnitude. There aren't that many 3D printers
out there and each printer can only extrude so much filament per second.
~~~
goblin89
I am interested in long-term sustainability of this manufacturing method. It
is not an attempt to blame maker community for current microplastics
pollution.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
We got rejected, we think we are early - ganadiniakshay
We applied with http://intigrent.com and were rejected from the summer batch 2015..we think we are too early for yc but would love to get any insights from HN community.
======
fasteo
Good idea, but I think kids (I am thinking specifically in kids with ADHD)
could be a better market for this: A more dynamic, visual, and challenging
learning environment.
In this context, I have missed "learn by doing" missions. For example, given a
queue diagram, "implement" a "pop" operation by clicking and dragging the
elements in the diagram. Check [1] for an approximation of this idea.
I just cannot see the "game context" concept. Calling lessons "missions" is
not enough, but maybe I am missing something here.
You really need to polish the user interface.
Anyway, great work a lots of potential. Congrats.
[1] [http://visualgo.net/](http://visualgo.net/)
------
pavlov
What kind of feedback are you looking for? I didn't see anything about your
company or product, so it's difficult to offer advice.
~~~
kakanda
Learn by watching short videos, solving practice problems and working on real
world projects. All in the context of a game!
~~~
pavlov
Oh, sorry, so intigrent.com is your site? Based on your post, I thought it's
some accelerator you were applying to and didn't check the link. My
misunderstanding!
------
loumf
What do mean by "we think we are too early"? What is your pitch and what do
you think you need to do next?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Lavabit's Dark Mail Initiative - p4bl0
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ladar/lavabits-dark-mail-initiative
======
shazow
Video summary:
\- Lavabit + Silent Circle are starting a non-profit called the Dark Mail
Alliance.
\- Planning to release an open source protocol for end-to-end encrypted email,
along with some open source implementations. Expecting feedback from the
community to drive the direction.
\- Sketch of the protocol: Mail body/details is saved encrypted on some server
somewhere. Encrypted XMPP message containing URI describing where to retrieve
the message is sent to the recipients. Recipient clients figure out how to
fetch it and decrypt it.
\- The protocol is based heavily on Silent Circle's protocol. Functional proof
of concept already exists.
\- There will be several modes of security, default being the most secure, but
allowing the user to explicitly scale down on a case-by-case basis (e.g. to
abide by regulations and corporate policies).
\- Sounds like it's backwards-compatible with SMTP, perhaps through gateways.
It'll be explicitly marked as insecure.
\- Ladar's goal is to transition Lavabit from a services company into a
software company, using the free/open source business model and offer support
services around it.
\- The protocol will be using "new elliptic curve cryptography we [Silent
Circle] developed." They're expecting the encryption methods will change over
time.
~~~
GhotiFish
Thank you for the summary!
>"new elliptic curve cryptography we [Silent Circle] developed."
???
is... this a good idea? I would of thought libraries for this technique
abound.
~~~
devx
Strange that they say "we", because in the previous interview, they said Dan
Bernstein helped them to create some new 205-bit curve or something.
Previously they were using the NIST curves in the SCIMP protocol. They should
probably just use Curve25519, unless they think that's too overkill.
~~~
pit
I don't know too much about cryptography, but for an asynchronous
communication method like email, is there such a thing as encryption overkill?
For example, does it matter whether the message takes two seconds or five
seconds to decrypt/encrypt (particularly if that encryption/decryption happens
in the background of your mail app)? Are there other issues as you increase
the number of bits on the curve?
------
moxie
I think it's important that we separate our support for Ladar's legal problems
from our support from his technical decisions.
I think we should support Ladar as a person for bravely deciding not to comply
with the government's request, but that we should be extremely critical of the
technical decisions that lead to his ability to have complied.
LavaBit was a service offering "secure" email using a mechanism known to be
insecure, which unnecessarily put a lot of users at risk. It seems injudicious
to fund its redeployment, and even a little bit strange to fund the same
person to develop something new.
~~~
guelo
I dont understand. Lavabit's full process, including the last resort off
switch, worked. Snowden was well served to rely on it, his emails were not
read by the government.
~~~
moxie
Lavabit was vulnerable to three attackers:
1) The server operator could choose to obtain access to plaintext. 2) An
attacker who compromised the server could get access to plaintext. 3) Anyone
capable of intercepting the SSL communication could get access to plaintext.
Incidentally, those are the exact same points of vulnerability for a normal
(unencrypted) mail service.
One interesting question is why the US government requested Lavabit's SSL key
rather than just getting a CA to sign their own. My assumption is because they
were interested in _past_ communication that might have already been deleted
(perhaps by Snowden). We now know that the US government often logs and stores
ciphertext, and we know that Lavabit was not selecting PFS SSL cipher suites.
So when Ladar did eventually provide the SSL key to the government, it's
likely that the government was able to use that to decrypt all previously
stored traffic and obtain the entire history of transmitted email.
So it's quite likely that Snowden (and all other Lavabit users) did have their
email read by the government.
~~~
ju916
Are you sure, that Lavabit did not select PFS? Is this documented somewhere?
That's quite a fumble for someboday advertising secure email services.
BTW: shouldn't we assume, that the US government operates at least an own
intermediate CA for such purposes rather than getting single Certs signed.
~~~
natevancouver
Ladar says so in this interview, starting around 32:30:
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LzKjxj0u_s#t=32m30s](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LzKjxj0u_s#t=32m30s)
------
conroy
I'm disappointed with this Kickstarter campaign. One 23 minute video and
almost no text explaining the project. The video isn't even made for
Kickstarter, it's just the announcement video from Inbox Love. How do they
expect to get almost $200,000 in donations with a campaign that looks like it
was put together in 10 minutes?
I want Darkmail to succeed (and I don't mind the name like many here), but I
have serious questions about the protocol and the community, no one which have
been answered.
~~~
Simucal
I couldn't believe that the Kickstarter video was the unedited conference
recording. I don't think campaigns need to be exceedingly polished but I do
expect a bit more effort than this.
------
tnorthcutt
This Kickstarter campaign reads like a What Not to Do If You Want Your
Kickstarter Campaign to Get Funded.
23 minute video that isn't specifically created for the Kickstarter campaign?
Check.
Very little explanatory text? Check.
Reward levels at different price points with identical rewards? Check.
Basic spelling errors (their != they're)? Check.
Campaign started by someone with a dog as their profile pic? Check.
I hope this project succeeds. I don't think this Kickstarter campaign will,
though.
~~~
Dylan16807
>Reward levels at different price points with identical rewards? Check.
Come on, that's not fair. This is a kickstarter that gives the normal
contributor _no_ rewards. That is an entirely different discussion, and not
inherently bad.
~~~
tnorthcutt
I'm not talking about what's fair/not fair or what's bad/not bad. I'm talking
about attributes of successful (or not) Kickstarter campaigns. Do you know of
a successful campaign with reward levels at different price points that have
identical rewards/text? Do you think that increases the chances of success for
this campaign?
~~~
Dylan16807
I'm saying that your classification of multiple tiers as having the 'same'
reward is misleading, because those tiers have _no_ reward.
I can't answer your question because I've only paid attention to a handful of
kickstarters, and they were product-selling rather than goal-fundraising.
~~~
tnorthcutt
When I used the word _reward_ I used it in the context of Kickstarter. That's
the terminology they use:
[http://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/backer%20questions](http://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/backer%20questions)
Whether a project creator chooses to provide an actual reward in the sense
that most people use the word is up to him or her. I'd wager that electing not
to do so is strongly correlated with a project not reaching its funding goal.
~~~
Dylan16807
I'm not complaining about terminology. Okay let me put this another way. Let's
pretend they had a $20 tier where you get nothing, plus the $5000 and $10000
early access tiers. If someone donates $20, they get nothing. If someone
donates $437, they get nothing. Does it actually hurt the project to create a
$400 nothing-tier in addition to the $20 nothing-tier? I am skeptical of this.
But that's what you called out as a negative in your original post, having
multiple tiers that are the same.
~~~
tnorthcutt
I'm suggesting that if the $25 tier has nothing as a reward, the $100 tier
should not also have nothing as a reward.
------
adamnemecek
It's been said before but the name seriously needs to change if the initiative
wants to get any sort of support from the general public. It's only slightly
better than say "pedomail".
~~~
dmix
Similar to authoritarian conservative political groups using names like
"Freedom" and "Liberty"?
They can sugar-coat it however they want but I'm ok with "dark". That is the
fact of life in a surveillance-state. In such an environment, one who wishes
to communicate in private must do it in the dark.
~~~
nrivadeneira
As accurate as it may be, it's terrible from a PR standpoint. The grandmother
next door will be less likely to adopt its use if she associates it with
darkness/nefariousness. _You_ may be OK with it and understand its true
meaning, but this isn't about just you.
~~~
dmix
They are creating a new protocol to be adopted and marketed by other email
providers (including Lavabit).
Those companies can take care of Grandma.
~~~
adamnemecek
But why create the friction in the first place? News are mostly about
soundbites, do you think that if grandma hears on the news that a defendant is
part of the 'dark mail' initiative that she will be sympathetic towards him?
~~~
w1nk
Viewed slightly differently, given that news is mostly soundbites, which is
going to be more memorable?
------
conorgil145
They point out that existing email leaks a lot of metadata, but I do not see
any proposal to fix that in the new protocol. How would you
hide/encrypt/otherwise protect the list of recipients? Someone somewhere has
to know where to deliver the message, especially if you will continue to use
human readable/memorable email addresses as we currently know them today.
You could have the server know the addresses to forward the message and then
forget them. However, then the server knows this information at some point and
it could be sniffed/recorded along the way.
Does anyone know any more details about the specifics of the protocol? How
would you minimize metadata leakage if you were implementing such a protocol?
I am not sure it is possible to guarantee the recipient list won't be leaked.
~~~
conroy
I've read over the SCIMP protocol. From their white paper, a sample message
looks like this:
<message type="chat"from='[email protected]' to='[email protected]'
id="0FF6CF98-32FE-4EED-9DEF-D66A0E50EA8F"><body/><x xmlns="http://
silentcircle.com">?
SCIMP:ewogICAgImRhdGEiOiB7CiAgICAgICAgInNlcSI6IDE1MDcyLAogICAgICAgICJtYWMiOiAiZlp
YYURlQ1ljVTA9IiwKICAgICAgICAibXNnIjogIkloT051Sm9kK0Fjb09KQ1prZ0xHQXliSmJjbC9WNzhl
cmMrSFY4K1FHcUJ2cEdlb2RaSWZwNTRKVWluU2g0N0lZTjFORkJOaXBjTVdubWlsMXVtbi9pcG5rVk8rd
VJZdUJuQjdpZXZEK1pZQzBYV0hHQWQ3WWJtOWRsYkpSd0oyIgogICAgfQp9Cg==.</x></message>
which worries me. Yes, the connection between the server and client will be
encrypted, but my message still has metadata that isn't encrypted. I'd just
like an answer from Silent Circle / Lavabit.
~~~
xanth
why dont they address the server and encrypt the user address at the server
level, so a network eavesdropper would only see traffic too and from servers
but not the particular addresses being addressed. The user puts in an address
e.g. [email protected] the sender and receiver address (maName & yaName) are
then stripped on sending the D-mail and encrypted with the D-mail servers
private key the receiving server (maDomain) then goes through the public
private key exchange with the sender (yaDomain) thus securely passing the user
address between the two servers without the eavesdropper knowing from what
user the D-mail originated and to what user the D-mail was addressed to. This
system would become more secure the the greater the number of users on each
domain.
To add extra security batch sending by the server would make it even more
secure
e.g. every 3min || when unsent messages to domain x > 999 --> send D-mails.
this would add latency and create bandwidth spikes but would negate time based
inference attacks.
edit: relevant xkcd; [http://xkcd.com/927/](http://xkcd.com/927/)
------
mr_spothawk
: Whiney warning : I wish they'd put a bit more work into this kickstarter,
rather than just dropping a terd on my doorstep. I'm really interested in this
protocol, but I can't help but feel like there's a lot of entitlement evident
in the lackadaisical approach. : end whine :
------
asdfs
Neat, but they really need to repeat what's said in the video in the text.
Currently it's not amenable to obtaining a quick understanding.
------
DigitalSea
Wow, $196,000? That's a lot of cash for cleaning up source code and releasing
it, isn't it? My understanding is that the code is merely being modified to
work in other environments, right? Finding great talent costs money and time,
but surely finding great developers who support Ladar and his quest to release
an open source email service wouldn't be that hard? I don't know C that well,
but I'd volunteer my time to make the project a success.
Something about that almost 200k figure they're asking for doesn't feel right.
Am I missing something here?
~~~
steveklabnik
> Am I missing something here?
Yes, watch the video. Or read the comments here with a summary.
Even the summary of the kickstarter says more than 'OSS the code.'
------
friendcomputer
I can't find any information on the "newly developed dark mail protocol." Is
this public anywhere? I need more information before I know if I want to
donate to support it.
~~~
KingMob
Seriously? It's the first result for "dark mail".
[http://www.darkmail.info/](http://www.darkmail.info/)
~~~
woah
I don't see any information on that page.
------
gesman
"Yet another communication system that offers better encryption" is not going
to solve fundamental problem. Even if it is named "dark".
The communication system that conceals the very act of communication will.
The best way to conceal anything is to make others think that it never
existed.
Pissing off enemies with stronger encryption will just get more people hurt
and hunted for.
------
logn
I like this project:
[https://bitmessage.org/](https://bitmessage.org/)
~~~
mahyarm
Bitmessage is not very viable for mobile devices unless you offload hash cash
to a server.
~~~
logn
Then there's this, built on top of the protocol:
[https://bitmessage.ch/](https://bitmessage.ch/)
The source code is here:
[https://github.com/AyrA/BitMailServer](https://github.com/AyrA/BitMailServer)
It's written in C#, which I don't personally like. And there's no mention of
which particular 'open source' license it is. But the source code should be
informative for a port/rewrite, and maybe running it via Mono is viable.
edit:
If the DarkMail people happen to be reading this thread, please consider
putting your full support behind BitMessage.
------
jgrowl
Donated. Good luck to Ladar.
------
Mithrandir
Previous discussion:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6642106](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6642106)
------
nullz
"sell the sizzle not the steak"
------
hadem
What is keeping this service from getting shut down as well?
~~~
dsl
It is a protocol, not a service.
~~~
cracell
Ha, that's a pretty bullet-proof way to not get shutdown.
To expand a little bit for the less technical readers. This is about
developing a new protocol for email, and an open source software package that
supports that protocol for people to use it with.
So in the end there will be a software package that you could install on a
server yourself and use for emailing others using the protocol. Most likely
some businesses will use the software and charge users for the service, just
like what Lavabit was doing before it shutdown.
So you could shutdown one provider, but you'll likely just make several new
ones popup. This is similar to the war against bittorrent. You can shut down
the trackers and the sites where people find the torrents but new ones will
just appear.
~~~
socksy
I think chances are, the readers of HN already know the difference between a
protocol and a service.
And the benefit you listed is already one given to email — the reason that
lavabit was shut down was because the guy behind it didn't want to provide a
service he knew to be flawed, in that the US government could request details
about users.
The question is, how does this protocol have it built into it in such a way
that both allows anonymity and so that providers can pop up in their place, as
you say?
------
mars
pledged.
------
dram
I like the name didapper mail. A fun sounding duck inspired protocol.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Hawaii Bans Non-Compete and Non-Solicit Clauses in High-Tech Employment - lutesfuentes
https://casetext.com/posts/hawaii-bans-non-compete-and-non-solicit-clauses-in-high-tech-employment
======
jacobheller
A really good book to read on the subject is AnnaLee Saxenian's Regional
Advantage: Culture and Competition in Silicon Valley and Route 128
([http://www.amazon.com/Regional-Advantage-Culture-
Competition...](http://www.amazon.com/Regional-Advantage-Culture-Competition-
Silicon/dp/0674753402)). It discusses why Route 128 failed while Silicon
Valley flourished. A major part is that under California law, non-competes are
not enforceable in California. As people moved freely between competing
companies, their ideas, information, and best practices traveled with them.
The diffusion of good ideas gave the region as a whole a competitive edge.
~~~
mathattack
Yes - this is an instance where a law can help an ecosystem at the expense of
individual players. In aggregate though, it's net neutral for most companies,
since they benefit from being able to hire from competitors. The companies
doing interesting things probably benefit, while the ones doing boring things
get a little hurt.
The (largely untrained) economist in me says that mobility of labor is very
important for growth and economic efficiency, as systems work best when the
best people flock to the most important well funded ideas.
~~~
srean
Thanks. You touch upon one of my pet peeves. A huge amount of legislative
energy is spent to ensure that capital can move around unfettered. On the
contrary, movement of skill and intellectual property seems purposefully
hindered. Implicitly it says that capital is much more important than the
others, I simply disagree.
~~~
dredmorbius
It's less that capital is _more important_ and more that it's inherently _more
concentrated_ , and hence, _more capable of expressing its political will_.
A dynamic pointed out quite explicitly by Adam Smith in _Wealth of Nations_.
~~~
mathattack
There's an economics term for this, though I'm spacing on the name. It's the
same reason the taxi lobby is so strong - it's a subset of 1 issue voters with
concentrated financial support of key issues. It's also behind why tax
loopholes are so hard to close - a small subset cares a lot, but the masses
less so.
~~~
dredmorbius
There are several. Smith noted Hobbes's truism: wealth is power. You might be
thinking of the logic of collective action, Mancur Olsen.
~~~
mathattack
Yes - Mancur Olson it is. Thanks! It's more subtle than just Wealth is Power,
as it also explains some counterintuitive results.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Logic_of_Collective_Action](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Logic_of_Collective_Action)
~~~
dredmorbius
Quite. A personal fave.
------
josefdlange
Excellent.
If you want your employees to stay, and to contribute their ideas to you
instead of running off to your competitors or starting their own companies,
it's so so so much better to just treat your employees better than the bind
them legally.
~~~
themartorana
I always found it weird when employers wanted to start a relationship entirely
adversarially. I also found it weird when businesses identified employees as a
significant and therefore negative cost center.
Employees are life blood. If they aren't, get rid of them and get new life
blood - but being so standoffish and adversarial is the antithesis of what an
employer/employee relationship should be.
~~~
sillygeese
> _I also found it weird when businesses identified employees as a significant
> and therefore negative cost center_
But they _are_ pretty much the biggest cost center for any employer? I'm not
saying employees should not be valued and treated well, but salaries add up to
a lot of money.
~~~
mcv
Yes, employees are expensive, but they're also the companies biggest assets.
It's worth treating them well. Without them, you're nothing.
If a company wants loyalty from their employees, they have to demonstrate
their own loyalty towards their employees first.
Edit: maybe calling employees assets is wrong, because you don't own or
control them. The _relationships_ with your employees (and those with your
customers) are your biggest assets. Ruin those relationships, and you squander
your biggest sources of expertise and revenue.
~~~
sillygeese
> _It 's worth treating them well._
Again, I agree.
> _Without them, you 're nothing._
Plenty of lifestyle business owners would beg to differ.
> _If a company wants loyalty from their employees, they have to demonstrate
> their own loyalty towards their employees first._
How? What's loyalty in this context anyway? Working your ass off for your
employer? Or perhaps not firing someone even though he's holding your business
back? I would recommend neither.
~~~
mcv
You seem to have a very limited view of employer-employee relationships. Work
is a big part of our life, but not all of it. We don't live to work, but work
to live. Just acknowledging that would go a long way. Give employees the room
they need to get their lives in order if they need it. Don't work them til
they drop, but give them a healthy amount of vacation time, and only ask them
to work overtime in extreme cases. Make sure they're happy. Invest in their
training. Don't screw them over. Don't treat them as expendable resources. And
when someone is holding your business back, maybe figure out why that is,
before you blindly fire him.
~~~
sillygeese
What exactly prompted you to give me that advice?
I'm planning to treat my employees very well, if I ever have some.
~~~
mcv
Did you miss that I responded to you? You asked, I answered the question. That
prompted me.
It's great that you intend to treat your employees well. I hope every company
does that.
~~~
sillygeese
Nope, I just didn't see how you reached the conclusion that I needed to be
told to treat my employees well.
I still don't :p
But nevermind.
~~~
mcv
You asked: "What's loyalty in this context anyway? Working your ass off for
your employer? Or perhaps not firing someone even though he's holding your
business back? I would recommend neither."
I consider those very short-sighted interpretations of loyalty, so I gave some
better examples. If you don't want them, then don't ask for them.
I'm completely baffled by your reaction to receiving an answer to your
question.
------
gtrubetskoy
As I understand it, non-competes are very hard to enforce and are more of an
intimidation tactic than anything else. You cannot be prevented from earning a
living the only way you know how given the demand for your skills. If you're
bound by a non-compete and the only (or the best) job available is with the
competition, you shouldn't be afraid to take it, and the courts will side with
you if someone goes after you (well, unless you're in Hawaii according to the
article!).
An agreement is not enforceable if it is unreasonable, and denying someone the
opportunity to make a living is pretty much unreasonable out of the box. Of
course it's not true in every case, but it is mostly true for "techie jobs".
(I am not a laywer, the above is not legal advice).
~~~
sib
Washington and Massachusetts (states with significant high-tech employee
bases) are also very friendly to employers in enforcing non-competes. (IANAL)
~~~
robot22
I can't speak for Massachussetts, but in Washington state non-competes have to
be narrowly tailored resulting in them being relatively hard to enforce.
~~~
muP
Didn't Microsoft choose to sue Google in Washington, when Google hired Kai-Fu
Lee? [http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/20/technology/microsoft-
sues-...](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/20/technology/microsoft-sues-over-
googles-hiring-of-a-former-executive.html?_r=0)
------
benjohnson
As an employer, I'm quite fine with this - as the law still allows for an
agreement to be made about soliciting clients.
If relationship with an employee and my company sours, all I really care about
is that poor relationship not transferring to the relationship between my
company and my clients.
Artificially locking ourselves into to a bad employer/employee relationship
does nobody any good.
~~~
crimsonalucard
Your problem is when someone you have a good relationship with is seduced by
something hotter and sexier.
~~~
benjohnson
I can see why's that would be frustrating, but my employees are not "mine" \-
so they are free to go at any time and hence, I need to treat them well.
If an employee is seduced by an offer that doesn't work out - they can (and
have) come back and can bring back what they learned.
One of the thing that I learned from such exits an re-entryies is that money
is not always the best motivator - I used to run really lean to have a high
payroll. Now I run lean to provide a good work environment - I can now fire
bad companies that don't respect my employees.
~~~
rodgerd
> I can see why's that would be frustrating, but my employees are not "mine"
> \- so they are free to go at any time and hence, I need to treat them well.
It's great to hear someone articulating that point on HN. There is too often a
constant stream of suggestions to the effect employees are a form of chattel.
------
tibbon
A company I worked for recently had non-competes and non-solicit clauses. A
new employees was negotiating their contract, and I told them to push back
against the NC/CS clauses.
I spoke with the management and asked why they needed them, "to prevent
problems" they said. I pointed out that they didn't have the non-competes for
their employees in California and asked if they had problems there. They
weren't aware of any problems in California, yet they thought it perfectly
logical and needed to ask for them elsewhere.
~~~
vinhboy
because lawyers...
~~~
lordnacho
Not just funny, but true. When you invite a lawyer into a discussion, what is
most straightforward way for them to show they are contributing? More clauses.
My firm's done negotiations with banks, and they all do the same vanilla
business. Some have lawyers very close to the process, and some keep them at a
distance. Of course there's always more back-and-forth when the lawyers are
there, even though the business is the same for everyone. They try to sneak in
ridiculous clauses and fight you on everything.
~~~
yourapostasy
In my personal experience, that "wtf clause" embedding is because lawyers are
at the coalface of dealing with the assholes of the business world. When it
comes to rules-based systems like law, the assholes of the world are the ones
that drive fractal-like complexity in the rulesets, with their continuous
seeking of edge cases to externalize costs upon everyone else they can
possibly unload to while profiting from finding said edge cases, and the
subsequent response by the body of law or by a law instrument to counter that
behavior. In other words, the assholes work the contract instead of the actual
relationship.
We need something like Iain Banks' envisioned "slap drone" for the assholes,
but in the meantime, I'll settle for discreetly negotiated relationships that
create exceptions for my company. Law also needs to evolve more formalisms
around invocation of privacy and other personal space / personal resource
(time, especially) concepts that are currently not well defined at the moment,
but are rife with predation by the assholes.
I have found company counsel to always be willing to strike clauses for me if
I negotiate with them amicably and agreeably, and preemptively provide them a
"trust but verify" action they can perform that absolutely cannot be faked by
an asshole participant. Clauses ranging from "all your bases are belong to us"
IP seizures, sky-high insurance requirements, invasive financial reporting,
you name it I've probably seen it, have all be negotiated away in this manner.
------
wheaties
Wish NY did the same. In NY they get to own all your ideas both at work and
"off the clock."
~~~
tracker1
I cross/line out any portion of employment agreements that say such things...
I've never had any push back about it.
~~~
throwaway91231
I did cross out a bunch of non-compete and some ridiculous post-employment IP
claim provisions and refused to take an offer from a midsize NYC hedge fund
which constantly self-proclaims as "technology company applying talents to the
domain of finance". Their contract was pure evil by California (and reasonable
people) standards and I realized I wouldn't be able to negotiate my way out of
those clauses (even though they seemed to have liked me enough in negotiating
the salary). I made it clear to them that this is not a tech company's
behavior. It was a hard decision for me to make considering my situation at
the time and the offer's $$$ compared to SV big cos, but I eventually realized
that _someone_ should take a stance against this form of slavery and we are
responsible for not letting this crap perpetuate. If more people pay the cost
of saying no, they'll have to cave eventually.
(throwaway because I don't like admitting I interviewed at a hedgefund
publicly on the internet.)
------
skarap
This is good development!
I'm not sure how effective the law will be though. As others mentioned, those
agreements are hard/impossible to enforce in court, part of the reason of
which is that they are completely one-sided, vague and almost enslaving (we
own whatever you create also in your own time, can't compete
directly/indirectly for 10 years after leaving, can't use anything your
learned while working for us...). But what stops the ex-employer accusing the
ex-employee of stealing trade secrets and keep them in courts for ~3 years
(and forcing to spend hundreds of thousands)? Cause, you know, it's hard to
litigate with someone who has a few orders of magnitude more resources than
you do.
As for non-solicit - I have a different opinion. Have seen companies breaking
apart because some of the middle-managers/team leads decided to leave the
company and take their team and the clients (with whom they had direct
contact) with them. E.g. that's how Lycos Armenia's history ended.
~~~
dia80
This only possible because companies want to be able to fire their employees
quickly so that means the employees can leave quickly. I know of one place (in
the UK) with a one year notice term. You can't leave quickly so their business
is secure but you are secure too as they have to give 12 months notice before
letting you go.
~~~
skarap
12 months for both sides? So if an employee wants to leave the employer can
make them stay for one more year? Doesn't sound like a good thing to me.
~~~
mcv
12 months is extreme. But it's extreme for both sides.
~~~
Lawtonfogle
If the company goes under, good luck getting a year of pay from them.
It is better than many deals, but still seems to favor the employer for the
reason most laws do, which is that when a deal is between a person and a
company, the law never treats them the same and the company gets what I always
see to be the favorable treatment (for example, company can't go to jail).
~~~
skarap
It's not always true, at least not everywhere. E.g. in my country (Armenia)
the employee can leave whenever they like with just a two week's notice
(except in situations when they have some central/important role in the
organization - in that cases it's 1 month). The employer on the other hand has
almost no way to fire someone if he doesn't have very good reasons for that
(e.g. lost trust in employee). Mass layoffs are allowed if there is some
global change (technology, economy, ..). In that cases the notice period in 3
months.
I guess we inherited this from the USSR (where corporate interest was not a
thing) and just didn't have time to change yet.
------
Sukotto
If your employee is going to leave anyway, your best course of action is to
encourage them.
Perhaps something along the lines of: "We're really going to miss you, but
it's clear that this is a great opportunity for you. When it's time for you to
move on from that role give me a call... I'd love to chat with you about roles
back here that would be a good fit with that additional experience under your
belt"
------
drawkbox
Non-competes are the most anti-American, anti-business, and anti-innovation
devices ever created. They are protectionism. They need to end everywhere.
Employment will only be more fruitful with freedom to create and innovate. It
encourages companies to pay people with skills in their field. As the country
moves to project/entrepreneur based contractual employment this is actually a
big issue.
------
IvyMike
There are companies out there that simultaneously proclaim the need for strict
non-compete laws while also stating how difficult it is for them to hire
qualified candidates, never seeing the conflict.
------
colanderman
"The law clearly violates corporate equal protection under the 14th Amendment
and I am just waiting for a client to ask me to challenge the law."
Couldn't have picked a more biased source ;)
~~~
tracker1
I think we need to establish a constitutional amendment that explicitly states
that non-living entities (companies, corporations, etc) are not legally
allowed to express opinions in so far as they donate to PACs or directly to
campaigns. Also, that the congress or the states may limit the rights that
non-living entities have beyond what an individual who works for or owns a
non-living entity has.
"Corporate Personhood" is such a horrible idea that it just doesn't make any
sense at all.
EDIT: for clarification, the 14th amendment refers to Person(s)/People, not
corporations specifically... which is where my statement was coming from. It
may not be a popular subject, but the fact is that corporation rights exceed
that of people at this point.
~~~
bmelton
On the contrary, if corporations didn't have personhood, we could not sue them
when they did wrong, or enter into contracts with them.
Personhood has its own challenges for sure, but it originates more to protect
people than it does to advantage corporations.
~~~
elevenfist
The point that's being missed in this discussion is that corporations are
abstract entities defined by the state and society, ideally for society's
benefit (otherwise why the hell would or should they exist, and also the
original corp was for public benefit). These abstract entities can be given
attributes, rights, relationships, etc. as needed, but they do not have any
inherent properties in and of themselves.
Corporate personhood is an analogy, and a poor one at that. Many of the
properties we assign to personhood are not suitable for corporations.
~~~
bmelton
I dunno what gives you the impression that I've missed that point, really, but
the scope of your message, which comes across to me as "perhaps we could
slightly restructure the rights and responsibilities of corporations to better
fit what we see as their role in society" is dramatically different from
"Corporate Personhood is such a horrible idea that it just doesn't make any
sense at all."
Both statements are equally true, as is my rebuttal. We perhaps could reframe
the rights of corporations, but abolishing personhood would likely make the
situation far worse than it makes anything better, as we then lose the ability
to enter contracts with or sue corporations.
Much of the abilities of corporations that stem from personhood are
commensurate with their other roles. I personally don't see a problem with
corporations having representation, as those same corporations are otherwise
bound by the laws of the land. Despite the "Wal-Mart is not a person"
rhetoric, it's worth noting that many corporations are sole proprietorships,
or, rephrased, people, and if they have the responsibility of obeying the
whimsy of the legislature in the myriad regulations they are responsible to
perform (worth noting, corporate responsibilities are typically far more
burdensome than personal responsibilities) that they have the right to speak
out against that whimsy where they wish.
That isn't to suggest that my word is definite, and there's definitely wiggle
room to restructure, but as it stands, corporations have burdens, and knee
jerk responses neither obviate nor necessarily better the proportionality of
their rights in response to those burdens. Ut totum, abolishing personhood is,
I think, as horrible an idea as mandatory mediation.
------
renownedmedia
Let's pack up all the Silicon Valley engineers and move to Hawaii ;)
~~~
hueving
Sadly it's a much cheaper place to live.
~~~
jegutman
Housing maybe, although not the stuff I have imagined in my head. Everything
else is really expensive in hawaii though because of shipping costs and lack
of scale.
~~~
hueving
Cost of stuff is only important if you spend all of your money on stuff. With
a tech salary, the cost of food going up 15% should be nothing compared to the
rent you will save.
~~~
tracker1
You think the cost of food is only 15% more? That's funny.. still not enough
to offset the cost of housing in SF though. Been looking at moving out to San
Jose (to work in Los Gatos, that's expensive to live in), and need to make
about 75% more to offset the cost of housing and taxes than I do in Phoenix.
I totally understand why some large companies would put their IT hubs in Texas
or Arizona now. Relative to the cost of living, we have it pretty good here..
I don't want to be outside in June, July or August though.
~~~
hueving
What are you talking about? I was pointing out how expensive SF is and how you
might hit a 15% higher food cost in Hawaii than SF. But that will be offset by
the massive amount you will save in rent.
~~~
jegutman
Okay, but if you're only talking about SF then that's pretty silly. Because
there are parts of the bay area that are much cheaper although I get that even
they are expensive. But if you're paying to live in SF proper or Palo Alto
proper you're paying a premium for either a low commute or to be around other
tech people or both. You can find places that are affordable in plenty of
parts of the east bay.
------
re_todd
I wish there were a Presidential candidate that would make come out strongly
against these things. Left or right, I'd vote for him/her. Unfortunately, most
Americans probably are not affected and thus do not care.
------
mathattack
The question I have is "Why limit this to High Tech"?
------
monksy
Lets see Illinois do this as well!
------
vacri
Why is this limited to just the high-tech industry?
~~~
j_b_f
The individual citizen (!) who lobbied tirelessly for this bill tried to get a
broader version passed in the previous session. Unfortunately as bbanyc45
points out there was too much opposition from entrenched interests for that to
pass. So he tried again (which is pretty admirable), this time using narrower
language.
------
lgleason
Good for Hawaii! Georgia went the other way. My advice to anybody is to not
sign them if you are asked to. They are bad for everybody.
~~~
colanderman
Doesn't work in my experience. I started not too long ago at a startup whose
founder actively publicly campaigns _against_ non-competes. Yet there was
still a non-compete in my employment contract, and they wouldn't let me strike
it, presumably due to pressure from their lawyers regarding potential
investors.
They have laudably since removed the clause, even retroactively from current
employees' contracts, but it just goes to show how little bargaining power
employees have in the arena of employment contracts.
~~~
hwstar
Investors and banks are the root of the problem when it comes to non-competes.
They insist that companies include these in all employee agreements.
If you live in a state where non-competes are legal, and if you are a job
candidate and they refuse to let you strike the non-compete, then push back
with the following: If employment is terminated by them and not you, ask them
to pay you 100% of your salary during the non-compete duration so you can go
on "Gardening leave". If they refuse to do this, then decline the job offer.
Oh, and make sure you state that you need to see everything up-front I will
need to sign in the next 6 months as an employee in the offer documentation
package. Some ethically-challenged companies wait until you have accepted the
offer and hit you with the non-compete and invention agreements on your first
day of employment with a "sign or be fired" requirement.
------
ErikRogneby
My understanding is that if non-compete clauses are unreasonable then they
they are generally unenforceable. As in if they put undue hardship on you
finding employment elsewhere. It seems the exception is usually up at the
senior leadership and C-level where strategic intelligence comes in to play.
(joe/jane-coder not so much.)
~~~
CognitiveLens
Unfortunately "unreasonable" is something that generally requires a court to
define. That's a big burden for a worker to bear even in the most justified
cases.
~~~
hueving
especially when said worker that bothers to sue is unemployed.
------
fulafel
How does it work out in the US wrt what you can bring with you to a new
employer, where non-compete agreements are outlawed? Is all information then
free game? European countries tend to have it in national legislation that you
can't disclose important trade secrets.
------
wahsd
Are there any clear and concise sources regarding non-compete and non-
solicitation clauses and their enforceability in various states? Basically,
some kind of primer on the topic?
------
lsllc
Good for Hawaii!
MA has tried to do this recently but sadly the big corporate interests were
able to bribe the pols; not a surprise really since MA politics are completely
corrupt.
------
omouse
I wish this would happen in Ontario; I know a judge struck down a non-
compete/non-solicit clause in one case but employers still stick that shit in.
------
jon-wood
Sadly the most important ideas are rarely the best funded. For example Zynga
has vastly more funds at their disposal than Wikipedia, and I'd challenge
anyone to argue that's the right way round.
~~~
javert
Of course it's the right way around. Wikipedia has, basically, what it needs.
I don't see how throwing more money at Wikipedia is going to accomplish
anything.
~~~
fapjacks
Oh? And Zynga "needs" something? Or is going to accomplish anything nearly as
worthwhile as Wikipedia? Or... ?
~~~
javert
People enjoy the games, they pay for them, those payments accure to employees
of the company and eventually investors who make it all possible. So the whole
goal of the business is literally creating happiness.
The investors, having produced value, can then invest in something else.
The people playing the games are also producing value, because they earned
their paychecks doing something productive for somebody.
Of course, all of this is true of every productive company and is readily
evident in everyday life (unless you live under communism). You need to take
an econ 101 course. Or maybe just pay attention.
~~~
fapjacks
I feel sorry for you, needing to resort to those kinds of statements. Whatever
made you that way, please know that life gets better, and it's possible to
draw inspiration for positive change from many different things around you.
It'll get better, buddy, I promise.
~~~
mjcohen
Until our civilization collapses. Then it will get better for all except
humanity.
------
MrTonyD
I think there needs to be some middle ground. What is completely ignored by
such an "all or nothing" law is the trade-offs required in order to create a
high quality of life for individuals while also thinking of our society
overall.
It is in society's interest for some industries to be protected - in order to
avoid low-cost competitors and worse employers. We are over-reacting.
~~~
GeneralMayhem
Middle ground in inherently non-equal relationships (employer-employee,
landlord-tenant, etc) doesn't usually work because the areas close to the line
need courts to sort them out, and courts cost money, which one side of the
relationship doesn't have, so what happens instead is that the line inches
slowly but surely in favor of the powerful side of the relationship because no
individual can afford to challenge it.
There are some ways to combat those effects - for instance, large statutory
damages make the reward larger, and unionization makes the individual risk
lower - but by far the simplest and most direct is to sacrifice nuance to at
least avoid a worst-case option.
------
CognitiveLens
In unrelated news, Hawaii's High-Tech industry collapses.
I think this policy is awesome and should be universal, but it seems a little
crazy to enact it unilaterally - if a company can choose which state to
operate in, Hawaii is going to lose out to all the others that allow unfair
(IMO) employer protections.
~~~
WilliamSt
Aren't non-compete clauses banned in California?
~~~
ridgeguy
Pretty much, as long as you're an employee.
There may be exceptions if you're the owner of a business that you sell, or a
member of a partnership that's dissolved, or part of an LLC that's being
dissolved.
Useful info on US noncompete laws:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-
compete_clause#Exceptions_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-
compete_clause#Exceptions_-_valid_non-compete_agreements_in_California)
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Top Educational Apps Are Mostly All Stuck in the Stone Age - e15ctr0n
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jordanshapiro/2015/12/12/the-top-50-educational-apps-are-mostly-all-stuck-in-the-stone-age/
======
personjerry
This would be a lot more helpful if they showed specific apps and what makes
them bad, as examples.
If anyone is interested in a good language learning system, I've been using
Duolingo on the web to learn French and it's been far more interesting than
learning it in school in Canada. It's free with no ads so I recommend others
try it.
Furthermore I downloaded Duolingo's app the other day and they apparently have
classroom integration! I am not an educator but if an educator could try or
evaluate it, I would be interested in how it is, as I'm thinking of
recommending it to my old high school teacher.
Disclosure: I am not affiliated with Duolingo in anyway.
------
educationcto
There is a lot of junk in the various app stores (just as there is on the
Internet generally) but the overall quality and quantity of incredible
educational apps is growing- quickly.
When used effectively, we have seen students using iPads double their learning
outcomes in a single school year. The issue is that the evaluation sustems are
in their infancy- the review sites cited in the article are pretty useless
because they rarely go more than skin deep.
My company, eSpark, evaluates and curates the best tablet apps for use in
schools, and we apply rigorous review to make sure they work. I've been really
impressed by how much the ecosystem has changed in the last few years and
can't wait for more classrooms to catch up.
------
baldfat
I run a STEM Lab for 3-5 year olds. I have hunted and looked for good apps for
education and it is a desert! We use a program for literacy and it is
"Computer Adaptive" to the children AKA if you know your letters they move you
up.
PROBLEMS:
1) Glorified Work Sheets. Just give them printed sheets of your stupid boring
activities. To improve them give the kids crayons and scissors and have them
draw on the blank side of that sheet of paper!
2) Computer Adaptive to learn letters SHOULD be learn the letters in your name
NEVER START WITH A otherwise. A is a vowel and it extreemly different rules in
terms of name and sound.
3) The FONTS are STUPID for a. Instead of the easy to write circle and line a
it is the type writer a.
My dream is to get educational apps and programs created that are actually
Developmentally Appropriate and actually better because they are on the
computer not just digital analogies of real world things AKA don't show a
maraca and have the kids shake the tablet just give the kids the real thing.
My firends who could invest believe the market is saturated with ABC Mouse and
company. There must be a way.
My favorite app for kids: Alien Assignment from the Fred Rogers Foundation
[https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/alien-
assignment/id531359578...](https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/alien-
assignment/id531359578?mt=8) it appears to be abandoned wear and shows its age
but the principle of the app is great. The children follow directions to and
take pictures to the directions of something round or blue or that holds water
and then give the tablet to an adult to check your work.
~~~
tom_wilde
Out of interest, are there any other Apps/Websites you'd recommend? I have a 4
y/o sponge who'd eat it up... :D
------
smelendez
Sounds like a lot of these apps are simple games to give kids practice
recognizing letters and how groups of letters work together. But I'm not sure
why that's a problem--as the article says, kids have been learning to read
this way since the Stone Age.
And if parents are downloading the apps, do they really need expert guidance
on what age or developmental stage they're suited for? Can't they just say,
"oh, we were singing the ABC song with Johnny today--let's download a couple
of alphabet games and see how he likes them?"
------
knicholes
I wish this article suggested ways for these apps to improve. Sure, run
studies, list your curriculum, whatever, but if it's so stone-aged to just
regurgitate the "correct" answer, what do modern education leaders recommend?
~~~
brudgers
Forbes' forte is not software design or analysis.
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Software architect mistakes - giancarlofrison
http://gfrison.com/post/14311599806/software-architect-mistakes
======
escoz
Mistake #1: read and agree with any article you see on hackernews.
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18 Things you didn’t know about Firefly - DrewHerrick
http://carsort.com/blog/firefly-infographic/
======
rpwilcox
Nice. Even had some things that were surprising to me, as a big Firefly nerd
(although, really, who isn't? ;) )
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American Schools Are Teaching Our Kids How to Code All Wrong - ShaneBonich
http://qz.com/691614/american-schools-are-teaching-our-kids-how-to-code-all-wrong/
======
marvel_boy
First phrase of the article: "The US Department of Labor projects that one
million jobs in computing will go unfilled by 2020"
This is just false. Similar lies are spoken in Europe. It is just a scam of
the "industry" to get more cheap labour.
------
pbhjpbhj
The author complains that kids are learning coding tutorials - like angry
birds ones on code.org. Having attended my (then 5yo) doing some of these I
think the level is about right. Just like we don't force kids to read chapter
books without illustrations at that age, 'horses for courses' as they say.
The angry birds type tutorials are a bit too closely lead buy they cover basic
variable use and loops and such. They also show the JavaScript produced by the
blockly frontend.
The objections seem a bit harsh given the target age ranges - if they're still
using only blockly at 15yo then you would be right to worry IMO.
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The app boom is over - 20years
http://www.recode.net/2016/6/8/11883518/app-boom-over-snapchat-uber
======
BinaryIdiot
I'm surprised it took so long. Integrated experiences almost always trump
separate apps as far as user experiences go. I'm looking forward to more
consolidation.
------
Dralon
Am I wrong or this just shows that downloads of the big old apps that are
around since half a decade are slowing down/stagnating? It doesn't show any
number about evolution of apps download overall...
Actually also shows that more recent apps (uber, snapchat, AirBnB, Hulu, HBO)
is going up.
How does all this adds up to verify the claim of the headline? What did I miss
here? :/ Is that just yet another catchy/fishy HL?
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Startup NASA - runesoerensen
http://www.technology.nasa.gov/startup
======
runesoerensen
Press release: [http://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-offers-licenses-of-
pa...](http://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-offers-licenses-of-patented-
technologies-to-start-up-companies)
------
ramon
US Citizens only.
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Lisp Lacks Visual Cues - gnosis
http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?LispLacksVisualCues
======
gruseom
I say the opposite. Lisp's regularity allows the qualities of the program
itself to emerge visually. It's amazing how fine-tuned an intuition one
develops after a while for code one's looking at when its structure isn't
distorted by extraneous demands of the language. In Lisp, I find I am
frequently (and often subliminally) processing visual cues to figure out what
I'm looking at, prior to parsing what the text says, which is a slower thing
to do.
Actually, you get the same effect in any language. You can tell a lot about,
say, a Java program by printing it out, sticking the printout on a wall, and
walking back 10 feet. But Lisp's regularity makes this effect richer, more
powerful, and workable-with at much smaller scale.
Unfamiliarity reactions are not properties of the unfamiliar thing. When you
walk into a space that is brighter or darker than what your eyes are used to,
you can't see as well. This does not mean the space "lacks visual cues".
------
jimbokun
Clojure makes great strides in this area, by claiming for itself the reader
macros for [] and {} in addition to (). [] is always used any time variable
binding takes place, for example. It also more closely follows the JSONy
conventions used by Python, Ruby and Javascript.
~~~
fauigerzigerk
The use of [] is something I hate about clojure. I'm never entirely sure where
it can/cannot/must be used and why. Sometimes it seems to get used as a
replacement for quoting a list, somtimes for efficiency reasons, most of the
time I just don't know why it is used.
------
akkartik
My (arc-like) lisp dialect has pervasive python-style keyword args, which I
find makes code easier to read. See, for example,
[https://github.com/akkartik/wart/blob/master/063http-
get.wts...](https://github.com/akkartik/wart/blob/master/063http-get.wtst).
Tokens starting with a ':' are keyword args. Removing them doesn't change
program behavior.
You don't _have_ to use them, but I find inserting the odd keyword arg makes
things much easier to read.
~~~
BruceForth
I think Python-style implicit kw-args are a mistake. It means that caller can
depend on the name of your function parameters and you can't change them
without breaking existing code, which may not be yours. Explicit kw-args,
where the names of params are explicitly advertised as part of the interface
of the function, are a fine idea OTOH, and should be in every language.
~~~
akkartik
Upvoted. We'll have to agree to disagree on this. I don't see why the number
and semantics of arguments can be part of the interface but it's bad for the
name to be.
Also, wart is like arc in that it's utterly unconcerned about backwards
compatibility. It's not meant for building large edifices. That doesn't mean
you can't build webapps in it. It _does_ mean that you better write lots of
unit tests.
------
blue1
Mostly it's a matter of habit (it's the same for typefaces, btw).
After some time, I found syntax-colored Common Lisp (in SLIME) to be very
readable, and I started to find confusing other languages.
------
aristidb
c2.com is classic, or in other words: archaic, software. This makes the page
hard to read in this case. For example, it seems to be written in the style of
a discussion, by multiple people, but you never know who wrote what (there are
a few signed comments, but most are not). There are also no sub-headings to
help you navigate the page.
It (Lisp's "lack of visual cues") is also an interesting topic, and I think it
would be especially interesting if you looked at this while comparing it to
Haskell.
~~~
officemonkey
Ward's Wiki was the first wiki, and as such, many of the pages were a mess.
When you winnow through the crap, there's a lot of pure gold.
I was active at Ward's Wiki from 1999 to 2002. I just spent some seriously
nostalgic moments clicking around.
------
mkramlich
The link title is my #1 complaint with Lisp. I think it has many strengths and
it's homogeneity is a strength, but also it's biggest weakness. Not a
showstopper, of course, but it is a turn-off for me esp when I consider cases
like having to parachute in and understand a new codebase or maintain
something I wrote years ago. Python, in comparison, gives more visual cues as
to what's what. It has less power, but more readability.
~~~
Tiomaidh
Indentation and convention both help (as does experience).
Python:
def spam(self, eggs):
for egg in eggs:
if egg.color == "white":
egg.crack
Which goes to:
xxx xxxx(xxxx, xxxx):
xxx xxx xx xxxx:
xx xxx.xxxxx == "xxxxx":
xxx.xxxxx
CL:
(defun spam (eggs)
(dolist (egg eggs)
(when (equal (color-of egg) 'white)
(crack egg))))
(Ignore the fact that this example was clearly written with object-oriented
Python in mind :P .)
Which goes to:
(xxxxx xxxx (xxxx)
(xxxxxx (xxx xxxx)
(xxxx (xxxxx (xxxxx-xx xxx) 'xxxxx)
(xxxxx xxx))))
I don't think there's a huge difference.
~~~
jrockway
Actually, you've misindented the CL and that's causing confusion.
You should indent when statements like:
(when (equal foo bar)
(do-something)
So that it doesn't look like:
(when (equal (some-long thing)
(that is being compared))
(do-something)
------
IvarTJ
When reading Scheme code for Chicken Scheme packages I find myself thinking –
“So this is why Lisp is unpopular, it really is the parentheses!”
I am not experienced reading Lisp code, but I find the many levels of
indentation and the abundance of parentheses overwhelming. I don’t know if
this is the case with Common Lisp code.
In Chicken Scheme however, parentheses are interchangable with other brackets
– so you can add visual cues through your style if you don’t care much about
portability.
~~~
mcn
Someone (sorry for not noting your name) suggested dimming/graying the
parentheses in lisp modes and gave this elisp snippet to do it. I find that I
prefer reading lisp with dimmed parentheses.
(defface paren-face '((((class color) (background dark)) (:foreground
"grey20")) (((class color) (background light)) (:foreground "grey70"))) "Face
used to dim parentheses.")
(add-hook 'scheme-mode-hook (lambda () (font-lock-add-keywords nil '(("(\\\|)"
. 'paren-face)))))
I also came across a blog post[1] which includes a slightly more complete
solution.
<http://briancarper.net/blog/492/>
~~~
evangineer
There's also Dave Pearson's parenface.el:
<http://www.davep.org/emacs/parenface.el>
------
twfarland
Hm, I'm a lisp newbie but just had a little think about this
(<http://blog.timfarland.com/2011/05/12/lithp.html>). I'd be happy just giving
special forms short, mostly non-alphabetic names, and using a bit of matchfix
sugar, looking something like:
(def map
(-> |list f|
(? (== list []) []
// (: (f (. list)) (map (.. list) f)))))
------
beza1e1
Guess what, syntax sometimes actually helps readability. For example Python's
"something[2:-2]" to remove the first and last to elements of a list or maybe
characters of a string.
Lisp is the language, where you have to write the AST yourself instead of
having a language-defined parser.
------
gord
they're called brackets
~~~
biot
Here's how I call the various punctuation which I've found to be reasonably
consistent with others' nomenclature:
Parentheses: ()
Braces: {}
Square brackets (or just Brackets): []
Angle brackets: <>
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Real-Time World War 2 Tweets - victorbojica
https://twitter.com/RealTimeWWII
======
emmelaich
This is a replay. Start at
[https://twitter.com/RealTimeWWII/status/903355299096141825](https://twitter.com/RealTimeWWII/status/903355299096141825)
| {
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America's Enduring Ideal - geargrinder
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903703604576589090204327736.html
======
sologoub
Well this was a scary read... I fully understand that it was written with the
sole intention of being scary, but seriously...
"He argues that financial incentives ought not to matter in a mindful society
and is confident that well-intentioned social engineers can suspend the laws
of economics."
Yup... people should work to better themselves without regard for reward, but
for the greater good of society. Marx would be proud, but unfortunately, human
greed and other vices always seem to win. Case in point - USSR and the ensuing
disaster of the 90s, replaced by autocratic oligarchical rule of the present
day. (First hand knowledge - I grew up there...)
"Mr. Sachs is honest enough to acknowledge that the "rich" are not nearly rich
enough to pay for his ever-expansive vision of government. We're told that
"each of us with an above-average income" (i.e., $50,000 per household) must
"understand that if we are prudent, we can make do with a little less take-
home pay." "
Anyone tried supporting a family in California on $50k income? I'm hoping my
family won't have to try this.
"Government must instead quantify "the greatest happiness of the greatest
number" and set policies and goals accordingly. There was a science to
satisfaction, Bentham claimed, and it was a puzzle that trained experts could
solve."
I seriously hope this was yanked out of context in the book, because otherwise
it's a call for complete lunacy. Soviets tried this in Russia and Mao tried
this in China... results were cataclysmic for the respective societies. If I
could transport the author of the book to Russia of the 90s, or better yet
Stalin's era, he might be signing a different tune.
~~~
sologoub
One more thought... one place we could learn from, however, is Scandinavian
view on education - merit-based access to any level of it. In a nutshell, if
you are good enough, society should give you a chance to get all of the
education you need to realize your full potential and benefit the society, as
well as yourself.
But then again, a system like this has to be entirely merit-based. At the
scale of US (300+ million people), policing a system like that and ensuring
fairness will be a disaster and it will likely fail. Throw in special-
interests and affirmative action, and you have a mess no better and maybe
worse than what exists today.
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Cucku Backup shutdown - cjg
http://www.cucku.com/cucku-shut-down.aspx
======
cjg
They blame it on Skype withdrawing their Extras program and litigation over an
existing patent.
~~~
nikosdimopoulos
The minute your company/application/service depends on something, that
something becomes your weakest link.
From the announcement, Skype decided that they will no longer pursue the
Extras market. Fine. What was the backup plan for the company? Surely they
must have thought of that happening even if it seemed improbable at the time.
They 'gambled' with the Extras since there was never a guarantee that that
service will continue. Very smart move to reach an audience of 20 million or
more but it backfired on them :(
As far as the patent is concerned, they could have researched a bit more
regarding their service but then again everyone sues everyone about a weird
patent nowadays...
Wishing them the best of luck.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: how to learn functional programming in Python - DeusExMachina
I have an odd question, to which I don't know if there is an answer: can I learn functional programming in Python?<p>First, let me answer to the obvious question that is coming to your mind: why? The part of the answer on why I want to learn functional programming should be clear to almost everyone here, so the real question is: why Python?<p>I know that there are a lot of better functional languages out there. The reason I chose Python is that for for my next project I decided to use Google App Engine, because I think that it is a very cost/time/resource effective way to implement what I want. And Google App Engine uses Python (or Java...)<p>So, to kill two birds with one stone, I'd like to learn functional programming directly in Python, so that I would be able to learn it as I go implementing my app. I already understand what functional programming is and how to program in a functional style, but going only with what I know I will surely miss something.<p>Everything I find for Python is object oriented (and I can understand why), but I really would like not to have to learn it in one language and then switch to Python (but I know this could be a better way).<p>Is this possible? Do you recommend not doing it this way?
Can you recommend books/resources/anything?
Everything is really appreciated. Thank you very much.
======
probably
I was introduced to and learned functional programming through Python,
beginning with these series of docs:
<http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/library/l-prog.html>
<http://docs.python.org/dev/howto/functional.html>
I would say I program primarily, though not strictly, in a functional style in
Python, Lisp, and R. For my applications it's more for the purpose of a
modularity rather than concurrency-critical issues, so Python's functional
programming limitations aren't noticeable (don't know in your case). There is
a 'functional' module available for Python which extends on map, filter, and
reduce, and lambda's single-epxression limitation does not necessarily make it
functional-hostile.
------
jacquesm
Functional programming is a technique, and that technique is best expressed
using languages designed for the purpose.
Python has enough elements of functional programming languages that it should
be relatively easily done, but it won't be 'the real deal'.
The interesting thing is that this exercise will probably make you a better
python programmer, mutable state, side effects and parameter modification are
'bad' traits anyway, and getting functions to always return the same result
dependent solely on the input parameters is 'good'.
This may be of some help:
<http://norvig.com/python-lisp.html>
It's intended for lisp programmers to make it to python, but I think plenty of
the stuff in there should apply to your situation.
------
spooneybarger
You can program in a functional style using python to an extent BUT... python
in many ways puts up roadblocks that make it a less than fulfilling thing to
do.
I would say you could become familiar with functional programming in python
but you can't experience the full depth of functional programming, for that
given your general goals... I would suggest looking at clojure ( runs on jvm
and gae )
------
mnemonik
As others have pointed out, the best course for your goals (learning
functional programming and using GAE) is probably going to be Clojure (or
Scala).
Python has taken some idioms from functional languages, but if you try to
really code in the functional paradigm you will but heads with the language.
Statements and expressions are very sharply divided. Lexical scoping is
broken. Lambdas are one line only.
Guido even suggested removing filter, reduce, lambda, and map from Python
3k[1]. If that isn't a signal that the functional paradigm won't be nurtured,
I don't know what is.
[1] <http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=98196>
~~~
l0nwlf
lambda and map will be there. reduce will be moved to functools and filter
will be removed.
------
cydork
You should read following [http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1892324/why-
program-funct...](http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1892324/why-program-
functionally-in-python) [http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1017621/why-isnt-
python-v...](http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1017621/why-isnt-python-very-
good-for-functional-programming)
I still think if you are interested in learning functional programming choose
another language.
------
gruseom
If you want functional programming on the GAE, aren't Clojure and Scala more
obvious choices? Both were designed with the functional style in mind.
~~~
DeusExMachina
Sorry for the lack of knowledge, but they were not obvious to me. Is it
possible to use them on GAE? I thought, reading thei pages, that only Python
and Java could be used.
~~~
cydork
Check JVM-based Languages section in the following link
[http://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine-
java/web/wil...](http://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine-
java/web/will-it-play-in-app-engine)
------
python123
"The part of the answer on why I want to learn functional programming should
be clear to almost everyone here"
It isn't clear to me. Why don't you explain why you want to learn functional
programming?
~~~
DeusExMachina
Functional programming and all its pros and cons are a recurring theme here on
HN, AFAIK.
I did not want to mean that everybody here uses it or advocates it, but I
think almost everybody knows what leads a developer to move to functional
programming.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Retrofuturism - ccozan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retrofuturism
======
aresant
Not sure there’s a finer visual artist to produce in the medium of
retrofuturism than Syd Mead - passed away late last year unfortunately but
left an inspiring catalog and vision of the future that I imagine will endure
a very long time ->
[https://www.iamag.co/the-art-of-syd-mead/](https://www.iamag.co/the-art-of-
syd-mead/)
~~~
cxr
Simon Stålenhag does really great work that if not considered retro-futurism
proper is something else that doesn't seem to have a name but certainly is at
least in a space adjacent to retro-futurism.
[http://www.simonstalenhag.se/](http://www.simonstalenhag.se/)
~~~
jonnydubowsky
Nathaniel Halpern (Legion) created an amazing adaptation of Stalenhag's
artwork for Amazon. It's unlike anything I've ever seen and definitely worth a
watch.
[https://www.engadget.com/amazon-tales-from-the-loop-simon-
st...](https://www.engadget.com/amazon-tales-from-the-loop-simon-stalenhag-
making-of-140005163)
------
bpiche
Gibson's excellent collection of short stories, 'Burning Chrome', contains a
story called 'The Gernsback Continuum' which is very explicitly a
retrofuturist work, I think. Maybe one of the best! In the first few
paragraphs of the story he also uses the term 'raygun gothic' to describe this
idea. I won't spoil it for you, but there are people in pulp sci-fi
spacesuits.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gernsback_Continuum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gernsback_Continuum)
~~~
steve_gh
One of my favourite William Gibson stories. A little gem!
~~~
bpiche
Indeed :)
------
chubot
There is an analogy to computing here. I mentioned a couple of 30+ year old
books here about what the future of software would be:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22093100](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22093100)
by Brad Cox (inventor of Objective C) and David Gelertner (CS professor and
entrepreneur).
I guess you could make Retrofuturistic software now by writing modern versions
of those old ideas (which didn't turn out to be economically feasible /
adopted, at least in the exact form predicted, although in some cases they
were influential.)
------
flanbiscuit
Back in the Google Reader days I subscribed to a few Retofuture blogs. Was
really into this stuff back in the late 90s and early 00s. Love the scientific
optimism. Not surprising that I am a huge fan of EPCOT, it had a huge impact
on me as kid going there in the 80s.
This was one of the blogs I enjoyed, have not kept up with it:
[https://paleofuture.com/](https://paleofuture.com/)
~~~
JetSpiegel
> This was one of the blogs I enjoyed, have not kept up with it:
> [https://paleofuture.com/](https://paleofuture.com/)
Matt Novak moved to Gizmodo a while back:
[https://paleofuture.gizmodo.com/](https://paleofuture.gizmodo.com/)
Did not know he had that site as an archive.
------
peter303
Various parts of Disneyland exhibit versions of retrofuturism.
First is the original tomorrowland, a future of rocketships, futuristic cars.
Next came EPCOT of the 1970s on the heels of Earth Day and environmental
sensibilities.
Then both tomorrowland and EPCOT were reburbished with a future of computers
and videao games.
Most recently it is the Star Wars experience "long ago and far away" another
blast from the 1970s.
~~~
narag
I love 60s and 70s retrofuturist style, white everywhere and rounded shapes
being the most recognizable marks. Starwars was very much in that style: R2
and Luke, with a revival in episode I and maybe II. Rest of the movies were
much darker.
------
Strilanc
See also: Zeerust [1]
> _Something — a character design, a building, anything — used to be someone
> 's idea of futuristic. Nowadays though, it ironically has a quaint sort of
> datedness to it more reminiscent of the era the work came from_
For example, a science fiction show from the 50s showing a video phone with _a
rotary dial_.
1:
[https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Zeerust](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Zeerust)
------
undershirt
“the future according to the past” as my writing teacher called it quite
pithily
~~~
sitkack
the bigger mistake, isn't the future according to the past but the future
according to the present, which is on the cusp of becoming the past.
It is almost impossible to see the now, we are too close to focus. My favorite
in tech is that someone is porting from a legacy system. No that isn't how it
works, you port from a legacy system to a future-legacy system. Be timeless
and love your future self.
~~~
undershirt
that’s profound. we should have drinks.
your comment resonates with the thesis that it’s easier to imagine the end of
the world than the end of capitalism—that our inability to imagine and
provision for the future, is the death of our imagination, of our
transcendence, and the world.
I like your take on it, that love has to point in every direction of time,
timeless.
~~~
sitkack
In the zeitgeist of HN, The Fence [1] and that everyone was doing the best
they could at the time, we need to have empathy both for the past and for the
future. That is why we strive to make things better.
[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Chesterton%27s_fence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Chesterton%27s_fence)
~~~
undershirt
chesterton’s fence is great. I’ve recently appreciated the synthesis of the
conservative and progressive impulses—to respect what has come before as it
encodes unseen wisdom, but to recognize that there are fundamentally new
things happening that we must account for.
------
solarkraft
Thanks for giving it a name, I love this stuff. Old visions of the future are
amazing. I love the German film "Richtung 2000" (towards 2000) from 1972 [0]
(should be understandable auto-translated). It's great to get a sense of the
situation at the time (oil crisis, the aero train just having been announced)
and evaluate what of it has actually happened.
They were right (albeit about 15 years off) about many major things: Home
automation, shopping and talking over the internet, a lot of work being
automated away, the psychological issues these innovations cause ...
Sadly they were also wrong about many of the great things that should've
happened by now. Space exploration has barely progressed (damn, I'm glad
SpaceX exists!) and we still don't care nearly enough about our
environment/quality of life to have electric vehicles and good local transit.
It's weird to see that so many of the things going on today were so
predictable. It paints a concering picture of _our_ future.
[0]:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4U2zW4IPDY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4U2zW4IPDY)
------
valeg
Netflix's "Maniac" is an interesting recent example of retrofuturism in a
show.
------
rayalez
Fallout is probably my favorite example of that.
~~~
pm90
Came here to say this. Not a video game fan but the series has a charm that I
found very hard to explain to friends.
The genesis of that world is interesting enough too: a post-apocalyptic world
which mixes the old and the new out of necessity, rather than a deliberate
desire to model things on the past.
------
dang
Related from 2019:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18966421](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18966421)
2014:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8148570](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8148570)
------
mseepgood
The future was better in the past.
~~~
krebs_liebhaber
Mark Fisher (RIP) made a good point in this vein: our vision for the future is
stuck in the '70s and '80s. If you watch a really old sci-fi movie like
Forbidden Planet[0] (or listen to its rather incredible proto-industrial
soundtrack[1]), you get the distinct feeling that it's "cheesy" or "wrong",
that its vision of the future has fallen greatly out of sync with our own.
This feeling diminishes as you go forward in time, and basically subsides
entirely once you reach the eighties. Throbbing Gristle, Kraftwerk, Blade
Runner, Akira... all "futuristic", even to modern eyes and ears. Is this due
to improvements in visual effects and electronic instrumentation, or have we
"given up" on the future in a very real sense?
[0]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWQbnyHNY3k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWQbnyHNY3k)
[1] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unSrf-
htPbk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unSrf-htPbk)
------
gitgud
People once envisioned a fantastical future, where _energy_ was practically
free, allowing endless possibilities for transport and construction.
What almost nobody predicted is that _information_ would become _practically
free_ thanks to the internet....
~~~
m4rtink
Well, energy is also almost free once you get some megascale space projects
going. Sun is putting out a lot of energy that currently just radiates out to
empty space.
------
ysr23
There is a nice video 'in praise of retrofuturism' on the BBC Ideas page:
[https://www.bbc.co.uk/ideas/videos/in-praise-of-
retrofuturis...](https://www.bbc.co.uk/ideas/videos/in-praise-of-
retrofuturism/p081y8lk)
------
rutherblood
this remembering of the past and what they thought about us can mostly only
mean one thing: we ourselves can't and haven't been able to think of the
future.
~~~
jbay808
I mean, there were also some remarkably prescient predictions made at the
time. But the more accurate they were, the less likely they'd define a
retrofuturistic artistic genre.
------
SomeoneFromCA
Although, it is obvious, you cannot be close to the reality if you trying to
predict more than 10 years upfront, to be more or less realistic, you have to
go back from the present back as many years as you want to go into future and
observe what did not change. Then extrapolate to the future that has changed
and what has not. Say in 10 years we'll still have AMD64 computers on our
desks, albeit 50% faster, we'll still be running Windows and Linux, we;ll
probably have more than 10% cars running on electricity, we'll still be
wearing jeans and t-shirts, yet there will be subtle change in the social
order, perhaps a bad pandemic, change in social networking platforms etc.
~~~
close04
We can't really imagine the distant future because we are very biased about
the past and present. And we also can't account for developments that are
entirely new.
People always imagined the future full of flying cars because cars and planes
were the big thing so the combination must also be big. But nobody really
imagined "social networks" 100 years ago, which are way bigger now than flying
cars. They had no indication that this could possibly be a thing, at least not
in their current form. We imagined/had forums and all sorts of communities but
not really close to the current idea of social media.
~~~
goto11
Science-fiction tend to underestimate social changes compared to technological
changes. The classic example is Asimov where we have an intergalactic empire
thousands of years in the future but with gender roles stuck in the 1950's.
Videophones are everywhere in SF, but who predicted people would prefer text
messaging with emojis?
Smartphones and climate change crisis was predicted many times, but who
predicted transsexual rights would become a divisive political issue in the
US?
~~~
close04
SciFi creators are also bound by the fact that their creations must be
commercial successes. Touching on sensitive social topics can get in the way
of that and it's the best way to get a lynch mob at their door. So even if one
could have predicted in the '30s anything related to race and gender-related
emancipation they would have been buried along with their work. Fancy
futuristic tech? Yes, please! Radical social reform ideas? Solid nope.
------
stolenmerch
I was always under the impression that Lloyd Dunn coined the term.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lloyd_Dunn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lloyd_Dunn)
------
akaktsn
I’d be curious if there is someone designing art or tech in this style.
~~~
egypturnash
Zillions of people. Usually it gets called steampunk (18xx) or dieselpunk
(193x-194x). 195x-6x futurism usually ends up going very Googie. And we’re
starting to see 70s/80s retrofuturism, mostly I’d say the word associated with
that is vaporwave.
More art than actual tech, and most of the tech is one-off hand-built stuff.
~~~
Swizec
Would cyberpunk count as 90s retrofuturism? Or have we decided it hits too
close to home for present times?
~~~
irscott
Nah cyberpunk is it's own thing and the aesthetic way predates the 90s.
------
avindroth
I think of Bioshock when I see that word
~~~
erlapso
Agreed, as in: Steampunk is actually a form of retrofuturism
~~~
pizzicato
The Wikipedia article does describe steampunk as a high-profile example.
Also interesting to note the two non-distinct forms of retrofuturism: "the
future as seen from the past" and "the past as seen from the future".
Steampunk is an example of the latter.
~~~
aidenn0
Renditions of things described by Jules Verne could be considered both "the
future as seen from the past" and "Steampunk"
~~~
jbay808
Or working models of Babbage's machines!
------
throw_m239339
Time to read Jules Verne books again.
------
hawski
I see a new wave of futurism with solarpunk. I hope it will catch on.
------
bityard
See also: false nostalgia
------
tomphoolery
my favorite style of art!
------
paypalcust83
What then is the converse of retrofuturism where the present or future is
represented with a mix of obsolete technologies along with contemporary and/or
hypothetical future ones?
~~~
magicsmoke
A post-apocalypic present with ancient and highly advanced technologies
unearthed from ruins that humanity no longer has the skill to remake.
Miyazaki's Nausicaa comes to mind.
Or maybe a world where technology is futuristic but the societal structure is
from the past. Warhammer 40k, the Roman empire but in space.
~~~
_Microft
RPGs are often like that. Powerful items are never something like the
_optimized, advanced light sabre of performance_ but always something like the
_ancient rusty sword of the primordial elders_.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
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