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bmk#1476: ~~BERT~~ ~~BART~~ ~~BORT~~ BURT BIRT bmk#1476: the trend is clear Louis#0144: FART Louis#0144: feedfoward adversarial routing transformer Louis#0144: ez bmk#1476: BLART, BLORT, and BLURT are also viable contenders Louis#0144: i need an LM named fart Louis#0144: pls Louis#0144: 🥺 bmk#1476: sei die änderung, die du sehen willst cfoster0#4356: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/729741769738158194/772516486358630461/Screenshot_20201101-094418_Google_PDF_Viewer.jpg cfoster0#4356: Am I reading this right, that we were missing an order of magnitude reduction in training compute? (ignoring ELECTRA) Veedrac#0443: > It’s really just not feasible to crowd source training models like this unfortunately Google: So we trained AlphaZero for a few hours... Leela/Leela Chess: Thanks to $large_number of people's support, the next training run is only going to take 6 months! Ravna#1831: We are even worse than the Leela case actually.
Ravna#1831: Distributed data generation is almost perfectly parallel with little communication overhead. Ravna#1831: Distributed training on a single NN is not. StellaAthena#3530: ^^ StellaAthena#3530: Even setting aside the fact that there are significant differences in what we are referring to when we say “the algorithm” compared to Leela, the “hard part” is different because we have a different use case Veedrac#0443: Yeah RL is a best case inoryy#0395: > We are planning to release that by the end of the year, train GPT-2 scale modes, and try to impress the people who run Google’s TFRC program @StellaAthena did somebody from Google indicate they'd be willing to give more compute? bmk#1476: no, we're just hoping for the best StellaAthena#3530: Again, let me clarify a bit StellaAthena#3530: We are currently in TFRC and have trained models on their TPUs. bmk#1476: also we happen to be somewhat of a special case and we already get more quota than the typical member StellaAthena#3530: Yeah StellaAthena#3530: There are unofficial priority levels and based on convos with other orgs we are restively high bmk#1476: also the fact that we just get more quota bmk#1476: most tfrc members couldn't create a 2048 even in theory StellaAthena#3530: We know that Google will, on a case by case basis, allocated dedicated TPUs to exciting and impressive projects. We are talking with our point of contact about getting such an allocation for the purpose of training our GPT-3 replica. bmk#1476: ^ StellaAthena#3530: Our POC likes us a lot, and we are working to build a case he can send up the chain for why we should get this. One of the key components of our case is that we have created a 1.2 TiB dataset of curated and diverse text that we expect to do much better than the CommonCrawl garbage that OAI used. Right now our primary focus is on preparing for the announcement and release of this dataset. We are writing a paper about the data that we are going to release simultaneously. The data is going to be downloadable from the internet, as well as accessible via HuggingFace.
bmk#1476: (also our POC is the PM for TPUs and also the founder of TFRC i'm pretty sure) StellaAthena#3530: Oh shit is he StellaAthena#3530: I didn’t know that lol bmk#1476: (though he has expressed that there are limitations to what TFRC can and cannot hand out; we just don't know 100% what the limits are) bmk#1476: > Zak Stone is the product manager for Cloud TPUs on the Google Brain team and the founder of the TensorFlow Research Cloud (TFRC) at Google. cfoster0#4356: (q: what's the biggest model size we could / would train without a boost from Google?) inoryy#0395: I think that maybe it's a bit premature to be discussing the dangers of Google using their resources to 'control' you while having no indication that you would get the enormorous amount of compute needed for free with no clear benefit for Google. Bedebao#4842: Besides, a GPT-3 replica is sticking it to OpenAI, who is partnered with Microsoft. Maybe it can be a convincing argument to Google. bmk#1476: i'm sure google doesn't need our help if that's their goal StellaAthena#3530: @inoryy I agree, though I think “no clear benefit” is a bit of an overstatement. Google does TFRC for the same reasons companies do pro-Bono work. It looks good. They want to get the positive attention taut forms with having “look at all these cool orgs that we have enabled” on their website and a very effusive “we are eternally grateful to google” on our website and papers. aquajet#7800: It also gets more people uing TPUs StellaAthena#3530: Also, I think it’s premature to have conversations about being controlled by google before some alternative exists. Not only do we not have the ability to crowd spruce the computation, there isn’t a market for TFRC-like programs. We can’t shop around and decide to use Amazon’s version. StellaAthena#3530: The downside of being extorted by Google and the downside of not working with Google are identical. inoryy#0395: @StellaAthena fair enough, I guess"immediate benefit" would be closer to what I intended to say. StellaAthena#3530: Yeah that’s totally reasonable 🙂 we aren’t hardcore google fanboys, girls, and non-binary people. We get that this is a business and such. We are optimistic. And if it doesn’t work, we’ll punish the data and see where we can go from there. Maybe HF can help us, maybe we can go to Amazon and say “hey wanna stick it to Google?” StellaAthena#3530: We’ll cross that bridge when we get to it. inoryy#0395: How much contact have you had with Zak? Also you mentioned having access to a full TPU pod, was that a one-off or you had it for a considerable amount of time? AWK#3939: Hey there, can anyone tell if this estimate is accurate? https://pakodas.substack.com/p/estimating-gpt3-api-cost bmk#1476: > Note: This was written before API pricing was announced.
bmk#1476: not promising bmk#1476: > GPT3 can take the seq_length up to 1024(max supported) max length is actually 2048 StellaAthena#3530: > How much contact have you had with Zak? Also you mentioned having access to a full TPU pod, was that a one-off or you had it for a considerable amount of time? @inoryy One of the people who founded EAI has a preexisting relationship with Zak. Connor (not tagging because he’s sick and away from screens for now) met him because Connor was the first person to release an open source GPT-2. The rest is probably a @bmk question (at least of those of us currently awake). I don’t do icky stuff like actually write code or run models 😛 bmk#1476: we can technically create up to an 2048 slice of tpus bmk#1476: in practice we can only get 512 on a good day and sometimes we can barely get anything StellaAthena#3530: (I’m a mathematician, methodologist, and ethicist. My job is to tell people what to do and then go take a nap while they actually do it.) aquajet#7800: At first I thought that said 'meteorologist' instead of 'methodologist' bmk#1476: anyways my main problems with that post are: bmk#1476: 1. many of these numbers are very questionable so the result probably has a few orders of magnitude margins of error StellaAthena#3530: @aquajet ewww. Why would I want to meet your urologist? bmk#1476: 2. the main expense is upfront (hardware costs, the cost of employing that many expensive researchers, etc). i bet OA will only barely make a profit on gpt3 all things considered AWK#3939: So you think the profit margin is a lot lower? AWK#3939: I'm interested in using a lot of tokens for creative writing but the pricing makes it difficult. bmk#1476: i think the amortized costs are massive bmk#1476: training is very expensive ofc bmk#1476: hiring all these people isn't cheap either https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/729741769738158194/772530129313726464/unknown.png inoryy#0395: do people writing EAI models have any experience with JAX? bmk#1476: we've had discussions but we don't use it for any of our projects
inoryy#0395: have you looked into it beyond discussions, even if on non-EAI projects? bmk#1476: i personally have not, i think some other members here have inoryy#0395: also by 'discussions' do you mean considering switching the project(s) to it or just talking about it in general? bmk#1476: we are not considering switching gptneo to jax presently StellaAthena#3530: Why? Do you think we should? Have you used JAX? bmk#1476: i don't think jax is good enough for model parallelism cfoster0#4356: We had discussions about folks doing side-experimentation in JAX Aran Komatsuzaki#5714: i decided not to do jax for now inoryy#0395: I do use JAX but can't comment on whether you should switch, don't have enough context on the project 🙂 Aran Komatsuzaki#5714: that's the end of story. bmk#1476: what matters to us is a) tpu support b) model parallelism support bmk#1476: (a) is the major reason we haven't switched to pytorch already, btw StellaAthena#3530: If you want to have technical conversations about this model specifically, I encourage you to check out #gpt-neox-devs which is the channel for talking about the GPT-3 modeling. inoryy#0395: thanks for the invitation but don't think I could participate in technical discussions 🙂 StellaAthena#3530: Ah okay. No worries 🙂 we try to keep #general (relatively) accessible and general purpose. It seems like things could go in that direction so I wanted to let you know. Louis#0144: anyone have any pretrained models for abstractive question answering? cfoster0#4356: Might see another wave of new folks in a bit. The guys at Machine Learning Street Talk just posted an interview with @Daj bmk#1476: ooh Deleted User#0000: > Might see another wave of new folks in a bit. The guys at Machine Learning Street Talk just posted an interview with @Daj @cfoster0 Lol, yea I just saw! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrV19SjKUss About to watch now
bmk#1476: > Is anyone here a native speaker of a language other than English and would be interested in helping some time a few months down the road with a dataset project? We'll be asking for your feedback on dataset text quality in your native language. Please DM me if you're interested. Louis#0144: cnn's kat kinsman wakes up to the voice of her guardian angel, Loralee. "carrie, you've got to get up! I can't stay here," she tells her teen-aged self. she tries to hug her, but she walks away, leaving her scarred, phlegm-thick body. Why does this happen? Louis#0144: from my language model Louis#0144: @StellaAthena @bmk bmk#1476: nice glucose bacteria Louis#0144: It was being prompted by litrotica asparagui#6391: a phlegm fetish --> true ai progress Bedebao#4842: No joke, porn is one of the main driving forces of technological progress. bmk#1476: i've heard this joke before, but how true is it really? bmk#1476: i'm sure there was porn on betamax gwern#1782: for BORT, I think you guys might be overinterpreting it. it's about extracting a submodel, model compression, they don't claim it is much more optimal for training from scratch, do they? gwern#1782: (the model you extract may look very little like the original overparameterized model. in fact, if it did, why didn't you just train the small model to begin with?) Louis#0144: It's a myth. It's not possible to see through a glass window. Louis#0144: new insight from the LM Louis#0144: this is great Louis#0144: @bmk Louis#0144: The Oort Colonies have a giant ice cream cone in the middle of their ice cream. It's not something we can see, but it's not a thing that we can't see either. Why? That's a great question for /r/askoorts gwern#1782: this model seems oort of order
cfoster0#4356: @gwern I think they do claim that about BORT Louis#0144: LOL Louis#0144: We have like 6 people who went to the subreddit Louis#0144: Almost instantly Louis#0144: LMAOOOO Louis#0144: I made it and it already said 10 people were viewing it Louis#0144: 6 rn bmk#1476: this is hilarious Louis#0144: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/729741769738158194/772631345125785621/Screen_Shot_2020-11-01_at_8.21.04_PM.png bmk#1476: yall are fast bmk#1476: who create Louis#0144: It's the name of a planet in the Oceans of Oort. The moon is the moon of the Ocean. The Moon is the center of the Earth. The Earth is a big place. It has a lot of things to do. Why? Louis#0144: I asked it to write more for us Louis#0144: honestly Louis#0144: im saving this checkpoint Louis#0144: idk what went wrong Louis#0144: but Im in love with this gwern#1782: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2010.10499.pdf#page=8 -4 hours is 'much faster' and '99.3%' vs '99.3%' is better accuracy...? https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/729741769738158194/772631824232218674/xwd-1604280130100905.png aquajet#7800: > idk what went wrong @Louis nothing
bmk#1476: the Oortcheckpoint bmk#1476: Oortbot Louis#0144: I urge everyone here to ask their LM about Oorts Louis#0144: it must be a conspiracy! cfoster0#4356: @gwern compare the GPU hours. It's 300 vs 1100 or 26000 gwern#1782: it's comparing the regular pretraining with the distillation, not roberta cfoster0#4356: The left two columns are BORT, using either regular pretraining or knowledge distillation Louis#0144: BOORT cfoster0#4356: "much faster" is seen in Figure 1 Louis#0144: oh man oorts are the new hip thing https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/729741769738158194/772633951869075466/Screen_Shot_2020-11-01_at_8.31.12_PM.png asparagui#6391: it had been there, lurking a million years in the oort belt, but now it made its move. it drifted slowly toward earth, and ... gwern#1782: I'm imaginging a version of charles stross's coffee club short story, but it's a club of ice cream connoisseurs whose ultimate goal is primordial ice cream asparagui#6391: i want the real deal, the original stuff! ... and for that we have to take _everything_ back to the start, damn the consequences... asparagui#6391: also https://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/fiction/toast/toast.html gwern#1782: it is one of his best, back when he was good gwern#1782: _hopes one day stross will again write something as good as 'a colder war'_ Bedebao#4842: Might be interesting to make a google forms to ask members how they came across this project. To know where it was mentioned, what kind of audience. StellaAthena#3530: This is a hilarious read https://www.datainnovation.org/2020/10/proposed-rules-on-ai-bias-would-undermine-dods-ai-plans/
asparagui#6391: http://www.infinityplus.co.uk/stories/colderwar.htm asparagui#6391: a precursor to the laundry files AI_WAIFU#2844: I can't remember if we've had this discussion before, what are everyone's odds that GPT-3 is strong superhuman at what it does, putting probabilities on string completions? bmk#1476: can't we run an experiment on this bmk#1476: get mturkers to choose one of two possible next words, do the same with gpt3 kindiana#1016: I think GPT3 is superhuman if the person is given the same UI as GPT (assign probability to 50k next token BPEs and calculate crossentropy) AI_WAIFU#2844: @bmk does that measure what we care about? What distribution are we using to draw the words? gwern#1782: @AI_WAIFU it's nowhere near humans, the perplexity/loss is way too high gwern#1782: my best guess was that its absolute performance is still at least twice as bad as humans gwern#1782: see my essay on GPT-3. it's hard because no one does human evaluations on the same datasets as they use for ML gwern#1782: https://www.gwern.net/Differences#efficient-natural-languages might be of interest too incidentally cfoster0#4356: What exactly is the ground truth in this evaluation? AI_WAIFU#2844: Really? I'd be very surprised if it wasn't at least as good as humans. What's GPT-3's BPC on regular English? Shannon's paper puts a lower bound of 0.6 BPC after 100 characters, and that's without considering capital letters and punctuation, let alone the rest of the unicode char set. Like I can't even spell as well as GPT-2, let alone GPT-3. gwern#1782: @cfoster0 lambada by construction and I think the other is a text prediction task which extrapolates from human choices or something gwern#1782: @AI_WAIFU I think you need to work with gpt-3 more if you think it's 'obviously' better than humans. it frequently gets confused or emits nonsense or contradicts itself. particularly in dialogues, it loses track of who said what in a way that any human reading it quickly notices gwern#1782: all of that points to eg considerable underperformance in prediction of pronouns AI_WAIFU#2844: It can still have mediocre long range coherence and still mop the floor with humans at BPC. I can check the long form coherence of text fairly easily, but I can't spell very well. AI_WAIFU#2844: Like think of the anlogous situation with images.
cfoster0#4356: ^ gwern#1782: _shrugs. there is no evidence whatsoever that GPT-3 has human-level prediction, and all the evidence is otherwise; if that doesn't convince AI_WAIFU, then there's really nothing more to say_ cfoster0#4356: Lol cfoster0#4356: I don't think it's human level at general language prediction. But I haven't seen experiments eliciting next token distributions from humans. Isn't that how BPC is calculated? gwern#1782: there are tons of them. I linked my writeup with them gwern#1782: they go back to shannon himself gwern#1782: lots of people have been interested for both practical and theoretical reasons what the intrinsic entropy of language is gwern#1782: (spoiler: no compressor / model gets anywhere near) cfoster0#4356: Hm. I see. AI_WAIFU#2844: You have a descriminator that can tell the difference between real images and fake images by looking at low frequency features. Then you claim that this means you have a model that can put high probability on images. But really what you have is a model that can do this: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/729741769738158194/772991966647681114/1s8rroD7abLrErIWuIzn_ag.png gwern#1782: GPT-3 isn't a GAN AI_WAIFU#2844: I wasn't talking about GPT-3, I was talking about humans. AI_WAIFU#2844: My claim is that humans are like VAEs, they get long range coherence right, but they can't put high probabilty on the data. GPT-3 is like early autoregressive image models. No long range coherence, but much higher perplexity. gwern#1782: you didn't even look at the lambada or 1bw estimates, and what long-range coherence in 1bw are they exploiting...? AI_WAIFU#2844: No, I did, but it was a while ago. LAMBADA is cheating. From the paper: > For a given passage, > 1. one human subject guessed the target word based on the whole passage (comprising the context and the target sentence); if the guess was right, > 2. a second subject guessed the target word based on th ewhole passage; if that guess was also right,
> 3. more subjects tried to guess the target word > based on the target sentence only, until the word was guessed or the number of unsuccessful guesses reached 10; if no subject was able to guess the target word, the passage was added to the LAMBADA dataset. This is not general prediction of english. This is picking out the subset of english where humans are good at using context for prediction of words. Not even factoring in character level prediction, or the rest of the ASCII character set. As for 1bw, if you're referring to this: https://www.gwern.net/docs/ai/2017-shen.pdf that's not an estimate of humans perplexity on text. That's an estimate of machine perplexity necessary to fool humans. There's a difference. Going back to the image analogy, that like estimating the perplexity needed to get a photo realistic FID/IS score. Doesn't mean the thing you used to calculate FID/IS is a good model of the data. Louis#0144: https://twitter.com/dril_gpt2/status/1323448058441428993?s=21 Louis#0144: True Louis#0144: > You have a descriminator that can tell the difference between real images and fake images by looking at low frequency features. Then you claim that this means you have a model that can put high probability on images. But really what you have is a model that can do this: @AI_WAIFU you should read the delorean paper Louis#0144: It’s about an LM basically trained with a GAN Louis#0144: it’s really effective Deleted User#0000: hmm. So if entropy of english is 0.8 bpc, and LM are using on the order of 1000 characters of context, that would be about 2^800 \approx 10^240 possible contexts, so I expect that every training sample in the dataset has a different context, so that a LM big enough could just memorize the the next token for every observed context, and reach a cross-entropy arbitrarily close to 0 ? bmk#1476: but held out set tho Deleted User#0000: right yeah Deleted User#0000: i was thinking training, true Deleted User#0000: hmm tho bmk#1476: even then if you only see each sample once... AI_WAIFU#2844: Yeah, it's funny, OpenAI actually has everything they need to evaluate the Bayesian probability of the data under their model.
Deleted User#0000: by bayesian probability you mean the likelihood? Deleted User#0000: P_theta(data)? AI_WAIFU#2844: Yeah, P(data \| model) Deleted User#0000: yea AI_WAIFU#2844: Not the the trained model mind you, what I'm referring to is P(data \| source code) Deleted User#0000: Ah Deleted User#0000: how would they calculate that? AI_WAIFU#2844: Since it's a one-pass algorithm, just sum up the log prob the model assigns to all the tokens during training. AI_WAIFU#2844: If they did that, they could show that the model evidence is siginificantly lower than a native estimate of the entropy of the text, and they could tell all the GMs of the world to STFU. bmk#1476: GM? bmk#1476: wait nvm Deleted User#0000: why is being one pass matter here? to get P(data \| source code) you'd need to marginalize over all possible initializatoins, and other stochasticity in the model bmk#1476: i get it Deleted User#0000: whats gm Deleted User#0000: anyway i think that because LM could be much better compressors, i wouldnt be suprised if they reach lower entropies than current stimates AI_WAIFU#2844: Because one pass allows for you to interpret the assigned probabilities's as components of the products in the chain rule of probability. Deleted User#0000: game masters? AI_WAIFU#2844: Gary Marcus Deleted User#0000: > Because one pass allows for you to interpret the assigned probabilities's as components of the products in the chain rule of probability.
@AI_WAIFU well u can have multiple passes over m examples before seeing the m+1th, and still do u what u said, and it would be more accurate Deleted User#0000: tho still what u say is only an approximation coz u are not marginalizing over initializations AI_WAIFU#2844: That works too. And will give you better model evidence. Deleted User#0000: in fact i think ur approximation only works well if the softmax probabilities approximate the actual bayesian uncertainty, which DNNs are not very good at coz they are not well calibrated, empirical stuff suggests AI_WAIFU#2844: well technically its P(data\| code and random seed) AI_WAIFU#2844: I wouldn't say it's an approximation, the procdure defines a model over the data. AI_WAIFU#2844: The calculation of that probability is exact. Deleted User#0000: yeah, tho if u make it one pass, it depends on the order of the data, for example Deleted User#0000: so its a model over sequences of samples which is not really the object of interest AI_WAIFU#2844: True. Deleted User#0000: you could get better calibrated uncertainties using some more bayesian training methods like SWAG or MultiSWAG Deleted User#0000: btw thansks for this discussion; ive been thinking a lot recently about how to estimate bayesian evidence of DL models, and this is given me new ideas AI_WAIFU#2844: I wonder. The cool thing is that with this interpretation, and a fixed order. You can view any training procedure as a model. Would SWAG or multiSWAG give you better model evidence? Deleted User#0000: > You can view any training procedure as a model yeah but over sample sequences which isnt that interesting? unless you thought of some creative way to use this somehow coz u are right it is _a model_ hmm Deleted User#0000: yeah from what i read swa, swag and multiswag would make the probabilities estimated from softmax be closer to the actual bayesian predictive probability of token i Deleted User#0000: hence better approx of evidence in theory Deleted User#0000: swa->swag->multiswag be like expanding bayesian brain Deleted User#0000: or you could use NNGPs but i havent heard any success stories of those for NLP probably coz not scalable enough:/ AI_WAIFU#2844: yeah, the main reason I thought of it is just as a way to get the "It's just memorizing the data" guys to shut up. I don't know if its useful for anything else than that.
Deleted User#0000: how is this helping against the "It's just memorizing the data" guys ? Deleted User#0000: well i guess, what is it showing beyond what u see from test data AI_WAIFU#2844: Because if you have a 10kb program that ingests 300GB of text and shrinks it down better than the best compression algorithms, you must have done something more than memorize the data. AI_WAIFU#2844: Same rationale behind the Hutter Prize Deleted User#0000: yeah, and if you generalize to test data you must have also done something more than memorize Deleted User#0000: the two are intrinsecally linked too Deleted User#0000: bayesian evidence and generalization performance AI_WAIFU#2844: But they are different. bmk#1476: @AI_WAIFU we only really need to look at the best loss achieved bmk#1476: since we can just stop it there and amortize over an arbitrarily large amount of data AI_WAIFU#2844: I'm gonna be controversial and say your wrong. bmk#1476: oh Deleted User#0000: recent work shows that Bayesian evidence is formally equivalent to an average over cross-validations, older work gives you a bound that says Bayesian evidence / training set size bounds the generalization error (PAC-Bayes) even older work (https://www.gwern.net/docs/ai/1990-schwartz.pdf) (+a bit of my work) shows that if average error follows a power law learning curve, then bayesian evidence does too with the same exponent, and the two are proportional to each other Deleted User#0000: so they are kinda both measuring the same thing really AI_WAIFU#2844: @bmk When you say "we can just stop it there and amortize over an arbitrarily large amount of data" your assuming you have data you don't have. AI_WAIFU#2844: @Deleted User the key is which average Deleted User#0000: ? Deleted User#0000: average error over the Bayesian posterior and training set samples
bmk#1476: i mean as long as the loss is on held out data and we know we can get more data it should be fine, no? Deleted User#0000: (thats for the 3rd result) AI_WAIFU#2844: I meant cross validations. Deleted User#0000: ah over all choices of split, and over all split sizes AI_WAIFU#2844: Yup. AI_WAIFU#2844: When people evaluate the test set, they usually train on all the data except the last little bit. Deleted User#0000: i didnt quite get what bmk said AI_WAIFU#2844: @bmk No. AI_WAIFU#2844: Two models can make the same predictions after seeing enough data, but the one with the higher bayesian evidence will have generalized better when getting there. AI_WAIFU#2844: And is also more likely to explain the underlying phenomenon Deleted User#0000: hm? i like bayesian evidence but i still think test error is the gold standard Deleted User#0000: its the most accurate estimate of generalization error, for a big enough test set Deleted User#0000: (assuming i.i.d.) Deleted User#0000: ((but all this theory assumes i.i.d.)) AI_WAIFU#2844: I agree that it's the best estimate of LOO(leave one out) generalization. My controversial claim is that we shouldn't rely on LOO generalisation as our metric. Especially if we're trying to build AGI. AI_WAIFU#2844: Bayesian evidence is a better metric in that case. And so an average over evenly spaced cross validation splits is the way to go. Deleted User#0000: why do you think loo generalization is bad? that is the standars metric of performance defined as probability of error under a new sample Deleted User#0000: its the expected cost per sample of your trained model Deleted User#0000: the cool thing about evidence is that you can compute it while having trained on all the data u got AI_WAIFU#2844: I mean sure, if you're gonna freeze your model, and you only care about expected log loss. It's the way to go. But it's not bayesian, and in environments where you are learning continously and have limited data, you don't want that.
AI_WAIFU#2844: Let me illustrate with an example. AI_WAIFU#2844: Suppose you have a process that draws images from a finite list of images. AI_WAIFU#2844: You can make a model that guesses blindly at first and then puts delta function densities on the images it's seen. AI_WAIFU#2844: Or you can make a model that does the same thing as the first, but uses an autoregressive NN to better predict the images at the start. AI_WAIFU#2844: Eventually they will be evenly matched in LOO validation, as they will both have memorized the data. But one has in a sense learned "more" about the data than the other. AI_WAIFU#2844: And it's the one with the lower bayesian model evidence. Deleted User#0000: right so you are saying that LOO is only a good measure if you measure it on the distribution of interest AI_WAIFU#2844: Yup. AI_WAIFU#2844: If you want to do something other than that, it's better to do what reverend bayes tells you to do. Deleted User#0000: i dont konw if bayes ever promoted bayesian evidence Deleted User#0000: hmm Deleted User#0000: sorry bayesian evidence for model selection is just bayes theorem Deleted User#0000: so ok AI_WAIFU#2844: I mean you can cut some corners and not marginalize over random seeds and models, but you get the idea. Deleted User#0000: yeah im now convince that if you expect your distribution to shift, Bayesian evidence is a better guidance than test error Deleted User#0000: thats a nice insight Deleted User#0000: however, bayesian evidence is kinda hard to compute Deleted User#0000: but maybe with the ideas we discussed above.. AI_WAIFU#2844: Exactly, just make a couple of evenly spaced checkpoints throughout your training process, and evaluate on data you haven't seen yet. AI_WAIFU#2844: That will give you a good estimate with next to no overhead.
AI_WAIFU#2844: Since you're directly evaluating the model evidence of your learning program that you wrote. AI_WAIFU#2844: You can get more accurate by keeping track of preformance on all newly seen data. Deleted User#0000: > You can get more accurate by keeping track of preformance on all newly seen data. @AI_WAIFU what u mean? AI_WAIFU#2844: If you do multiple passes over your data, do them in such a way that you do multiple passes only over what you've already seen. Not what you will see. Deleted User#0000: ah right Deleted User#0000: yeah but even single pass is fine, under your interpetation of a model over sequences of samples rather than sets of samples Deleted User#0000: which is another interesting insight AI_WAIFU#2844: Yup. Deleted User#0000: lol ive come from being skeptical to now i wanna see this being tried eveywhere xD Deleted User#0000: today i became a bit more bayesian Deleted User#0000: my posterior probability of being bayesian is higher now AI_WAIFU#2844: lmao AI_WAIFU#2844: Now where's gwern? He accused me of being unread and left. Deleted User#0000: however, i still think bayesian evidence can suffer from similar problems as test error one issue we can have with data (like the pile) is that its not truly i.i.d., and its more correlated than truly iid text, that can make the test accuracy appear higher than it really is, but it can also make the bayesian evidence appear higher than it is Deleted User#0000: (why do things alway be so complicated irl?) AI_WAIFU#2844: Really? Deleted User#0000: yeah right? you can imagine that if u have correlations like say lots of books on physics, then after seeing a bunch, then the next bunch of physics books will have high probability, inflating the bayesian evidence Deleted User#0000: from the same issue that is inflating the error
AI_WAIFU#2844: If the parameters of the network overfit to the data you're currently looking at because of correlations in the train data stream. That seems like a feature, not a bug. Deleted User#0000: it means that your performance metric is over-optimistic AI_WAIFU#2844: No? Deleted User#0000: assuming in actual application of the model those correlations wont be there AI_WAIFU#2844: Because you're evaluating the program, not the network at that point in time. Deleted User#0000: which is the issue of distribution shift AI_WAIFU#2844: But won't those correlations be there? Deleted User#0000: why would they be? like the average gpt-neo user may not be using it on data exactly like the pile Deleted User#0000: i mean Deleted User#0000: correlations in input samples Deleted User#0000: like imagine an extreme example that the pile was all physics books Deleted User#0000: that wouldnt be very good right? AI_WAIFU#2844: Yeah. I get that. AI_WAIFU#2844: I think we have different applications in mind. AI_WAIFU#2844: If you're thinking of freezing the weights, I agree with you. Deleted User#0000: what application do you hav in mind? AI_WAIFU#2844: But if you don't do that, in general users will have their own test distribution, and so you want the program that's the best at adapting to it. AI_WAIFU#2844: And you'll get that by evaluating how quickly your model keeps up with the correlation in your train stream. AI_WAIFU#2844: Which is the model evidence. Deleted User#0000: ok, tho i dont think there are any rigorous guarantees that bayesian evidence will measure performance if you dont assume your input stream is i.i.d.
Deleted User#0000: (i still get the bayesian story of it being nice and stuff, but u cant really prove itunless u assume ur priors are good and i donno stuff) Deleted User#0000: (which tbf is probably fair to assume in many cases) AI_WAIFU#2844: Nope, but in non-iid environments, I don't know what to go off of other than bayes. Deleted User#0000: yeah i donno solomonoff? Deleted User#0000: which is bayesian anyways AI_WAIFU#2844: That's just bayes Deleted User#0000: yea AI_WAIFU#2844: with a tm prior Deleted User#0000: tm? AI_WAIFU#2844: turing machine Deleted User#0000: ahye AI_WAIFU#2844: actually, since your evaluating P(data \| program), optimizing it is a variational approximation of solmonoff induction. Deleted User#0000: hmm? AI_WAIFU#2844: Well kinda, its solmonoff induction with probabilistic TMs. Since your program defines a distribution over bit streams. AI_WAIFU#2844: That brings up a cool idea. AI_WAIFU#2844: Train an NN on it's own generate output and watch what patterns it settles into. Deleted User#0000: hmmm Deleted User#0000: nice Deleted User#0000: but wait Deleted User#0000: how do you stat this
Deleted User#0000: coz if u start at initialization theta, and generate the outputs from theta, it wont learn anything from the start? Deleted User#0000: coz its already optimal? AI_WAIFU#2844: There's gonna be random drift though. Deleted User#0000: not sure.. Deleted User#0000: loss is a global minimum Deleted User#0000: unless u add noise Deleted User#0000: to the optimizer Deleted User#0000: unless im misunderstanding what u prposed AI_WAIFU#2844: The noise comes from drawing samples from the network, and then doing minibatch gradient updates. Deleted User#0000: drawing samples of parameters, or of inputs? AI_WAIFU#2844: outputs from the model, which then become training examples. Deleted User#0000: outputs from the sequence you defined, with the random seed being sampled too? AI_WAIFU#2844: You have 2 random seeds. One is internal to the process, and is used for things like dropout and weight initialization. The second is used to sample from the process output distribution. Deleted User#0000: yeah i think i see Deleted User#0000: i think it would just degenreate quickly into producing the same token AI_WAIFU#2844: This perspective actually give us some immediate insight into the "assumptions" behind training procedures that are 1 pass vs multipass. AI_WAIFU#2844: Neither will degenerate to outputing the same token AI_WAIFU#2844: but 1 pass will see its weights drift though the space of parameters randomly, like a markov process. StellaAthena#3530: This is dope: https://youtu.be/pTn6Ewhb27k AI_WAIFU#2844: Multi pass algorithms have "memory" and their models weights should roughly converge.
Deleted User#0000: so im imagining you are running a transformer or something autoregressively, but every time it samples an output, it uses that output to train itself? AI_WAIFU#2844: yes Deleted User#0000: why wouldnt it just learn: ok so i make output i which i sampled more likely. in the next step its more likely to be sampled, and etc etc until its just always sampled AI_WAIFU#2844: because the context will change and it will occasionally sample something rare. You can probably show that the expected gradient is zero. AI_WAIFU#2844: Mathematically Deleted User#0000: yeah i know the context should change but i still see the degenerate solution as being a fixed point AI_WAIFU#2844: Since Sum(P(x)del(log(P(x))) = 0 AI_WAIFU#2844: So no degeneracy just noise Deleted User#0000: why is that 0 Deleted User#0000: ah wait Deleted User#0000: hm AI_WAIFU#2844: @StellaAthena You're better at this than I am. Deleted User#0000: i think i see its 0, but now i wanna see why my intuition could be wrong bmk#1476: What's the intuition for why this is true bmk#1476: Log derivative trick? AI_WAIFU#2844: Yup, but it's probably better to think that min expected log Q(x) under distribution P occurs when Q = P Deleted User#0000: Sum(P(x)del(log(P(x))) = Sum(P(x)*(1/P(x))del(P(x))) = Sum(del(P(x))) = del(Sum(P(x))) = del(1) = 0 AI_WAIFU#2844: As @Deleted User said, you're already at the minima AI_WAIFU#2844: so the gradient is 0 in expectation Deleted User#0000: yeah
Deleted User#0000: very hmm AI_WAIFU#2844: Thus you get parameter drift when doing SGD bmk#1476: Wait so what does gradient being zero in expectation imply? bmk#1476: Oh wait it's only zero when it's at the correct place Deleted User#0000: which it always is AI_WAIFU#2844: But in this case everywhere is the correct place bmk#1476: So you're showing that it does actually have a well defined minimum? AI_WAIFU#2844: no, your showing that it drifts randomly. bmk#1476: Wait, the expected gradient is always zero? bmk#1476: Oh right this is the training on its own data thing AI_WAIFU#2844: Yes bmk#1476: Whoops I thought you just meant in general bmk#1476: So tldr training on own data is uninteresting because it's just a walk then? Deleted User#0000: it would degenreate if you used a loss function like MSE, with target the sampled one hot label Deleted User#0000: or something random like that just designed so that my intuition works xD AI_WAIFU#2844: No it's super interesting, because it tells you about the implict assumptions of one-pass language model under the bayesian interpretation. bmk#1476: It's too late I should go to bed I'm not absorbing any of this AI_WAIFU#2844: Namely that it's a markov process in parameter space. AI_WAIFU#2844: And multipass methods aren't bmk#1476: I'm not sure what the heck you mean by the Bayesian interpretation of a LM
AI_WAIFU#2844: and converge to a parameter attractor. AI_WAIFU#2844: The thing me and @Deleted User we're talking about earlier. bmk#1476: Sorry I haven't been following the discussion bmk#1476: And I'll probably ask tomorrow AI_WAIFU#2844: Where you view the LM training program as a model and evaluate its probablity under the data AI_WAIFU#2844: by summing the probabilities it assigns to data it's just about to update on. bmk#1476: I'm going to ask you tomorrow bmk#1476: I'm not absorbing any of this AI_WAIFU#2844: Yeah I gotta sleep too. Deleted User#0000: this is indeed quite interesting Deleted User#0000: coz random walk in parameter space is not random walk in function space Deleted User#0000: uwu i wanna try this AI_WAIFU#2844: If anyone tries to turn this into a paper. You have to say that an anime PFP obsessed with catgirls who goes by the name of AI_WAIFU gave you the idea. Deleted User#0000: should put u as author Deleted User#0000: as AI_WAIFU bmk#1476: I can't wait to see that happen Deleted User#0000: catgirl correspondence bmk#1476: AI_WAIFU EleutherAI
Address correspondence to [email protected] AI_WAIFU#2844: Honestly, you don't need a tonne of compute to demonstrate the point. AI_WAIFU#2844: I'll put it on the backlog. bmk#1476: That would jive with our whole thing very well bmk#1476: The whole "casual research" thing bmk#1476: I cannot wait for a paper with that on the author list to materialize from eleuther Deleted User#0000: > Honestly, you don't need a tonne of compute to demonstrate the point. @AI_WAIFU can just try with small transformers to begin with AI_WAIFU#2844: yup Deleted User#0000: but if u have bigger transformers u can try those too Deleted User#0000: im still n00b in all this nlp and stuff AI_WAIFU#2844: I don't actually know what bigger transformers would buy you though, but it might be cool anyways. Deleted User#0000: like generate sequences of words, rather than sequences of binary data or something which is what id try first xD bmk#1476: > i can barely understand the math yall are talking about > "still n00b" Not helping my impostor syndrome Deleted User#0000: coz minimalism *(really not knowing how to do the advanced stuff)
AI_WAIFU#2844: ok fr I gotta go to bed. Deleted User#0000: i mean i can do math but engineering is a different skillz Deleted User#0000: but yeah i should go to bed too Deleted User#0000: good night bmk#1476: I barely know how derivatives work lol, i gave up like a quarter of the way into diffgeo bmk#1476: Anyways yeah I gotta sleep too Deleted User#0000: "barely know how derivatives work lol" >< "went a quarter into _diffgeo_" bmk#1476: I gave up trying to understand differential forms bmk#1476: Also do you really understand derivatives if you don't do diffgeo Deleted User#0000: sweats and tries to remember all the defense mechanisms that they teach at physics when attacked by a mathematician bmk#1476: Is it even differentiation if you're not doing it on a wacky surface Deleted User#0000: derivative is just (thing - almost thing)/almost bmk#1476: Yeah but currrrrves bmk#1476: m a n i f o l d Deleted User#0000: > derivative is just (thing - almost thing)/almost @Deleted User somehow it can be reduced to this i donno, or my whole life is a lie Deleted User#0000: i have learnt parts of diffgeo but really learning it properly hasbeen in my backlog for ever Deleted User#0000: i learnt the basics of the curve+surfaces part of it tho Deleted User#0000: and some random bits of other bits Deleted User#0000: but like most bits not yet
bmk#1476: If you ever figure it out lmk lol Deleted User#0000: will do Deleted User#0000: one day.... bmk#1476: Ok it is actually seriously really sleep time this time Deleted User#0000: 5am Deleted User#0000: kek Deleted User#0000: gn chirp#4545: https://www.hpcwire.com/2020/11/02/aws-ultraclusters-with-new-p4-a100-instances/ cognomen#6297: next stop permutation city Louis#0144: Anyone know any good NLI/NLU labs? Louis#0144: besides stanford and NYU spirit-from-germany#1488: Here’s an idea that had been on my mind for a few months: To teach sequence models (like GPT etc.) about real world interactions and common sense, it should be fed with data about scenes and the physical world. The problem is, that raw video & audio data would be too huge for computers today and in the near future … and that we humans also don’t attend to every pixel whenever we think about interactions and scenes. Instead, we have perception modules that had evolved through evolution for things like face recognition, attractiveness evaluations, … and whenever we think about things and concepts, we don’t perform mental operations on pixel or wave from levels, but on abstract representations similar to language, numbers or other symbols. In my opinion it would be plausible and practically feasible to create an ensemble of narrowly trained recognition and captioning algorithms, that could extract abstract features (like natural language descriptions, poses, bounding boxes, …) from images, videos and audio data, that capture the information in them, that are likely most important for a human-like understanding of social, situational and physical interaction. By doing so the content of movies, tv shows, youtube videos, … could be reduced to much smaller sizes without sacrificing too much of the relevant information.
Of course it would be challenging to create or gather an ensemble of capable and performant recognition / segmentation modules. But AI systems in these areas keep progressing constantly, such that it will become increasingly easier to create ensembles which will capture more and better abstract features. spirit-from-germany#1488: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-ukb7KVf9_ATg_uIBog73m5m8hBe8zf0V5Bw9vsWwEw/edit?usp=sharing CRG#8707: Jukebox did something similar with the VQ code vocabulary. CRG#8707: The new scaling laws paper also used it for image and video. XMaster96#7538: do you have a link ? CRG#8707: > do you have a link ? @XMaster96 https://arxiv.org/abs/2005.00341 https://arxiv.org/abs/2001.08361 gwern#1782: (we don't attend to every pixel in consciousness, but something has to filter incoming photons and selectively discard them, and that's much of what the retina and optical nerve do, and those aren't free for humans) dudekingbromanguyokay#2595: (waves) hihi smart folks! I'm retraining a GPT-2 XL model on Google Colab Pro due to lack of formatting of my text files the last go 'round (results were not as good as I'd like) is there a tutorial handy on data cleaning across a bunch of text files I'd like to amalgamate into a single npz file for training? Things like new line stripping, adding the <\|endoftext\|> token, etc? Deleted User#0000: @dudekingbromanguyokay i think the script provided in the repository should take care of appending end of text tokens Deleted User#0000: what other kinds of preprocessing do you need? besides stripping excess new lines? dudekingbromanguyokay#2595: @Deleted User concatenating files from a directory ... also probably an easy to follow tutorial Deleted User#0000: http://nlc2cmd.us-east.mybluemix.net/ just ask gpt-3 Deleted User#0000: @dudekingbromanguyokay you shouldn't have to concat the files together, the tensorflow record generating script should take care of all that for you dudekingbromanguyokay#2595: >the tensorflow record generating script should take care of all that for you <- ...(insert confused face) I've been mostly using a google colab for training from a forked gpt-2-simple & haven't looked at or obtained access to the GPTNeo stuff...excuse my ignorance...so not sure what record generating script you're referring to. 😦 Help appreciated 🙂 dudekingbromanguyokay#2595: from reading, this sounds like (maybe?) what I need - https://github.com/shawwn/gpt-2/blob/tpu/prepare_dataset.py <- ? Deleted User#0000: ohhh, i thought you were using gpt-neo Deleted User#0000: https://github.com/EleutherAI/GPTNeo
Deleted User#0000: yeah, then i don't know about gpt2-simple Bedebao#4842: It seems EleutherAI is getting more mentions on 4chan. bmk#1476: link pls Bedebao#4842: today and yesterday saw a surge https://arch.b4k.co/_/search/boards/v.vg.vm.vmg.vrpg.vst/text/eleutherai/ cfoster0#4356: AI Dungeon just announced a bunch of changes, no? Bedebao#4842: Disastrous ones. bmk#1476: i feel proud of what we have accomplished Bedebao#4842: A fucking stamina bar. It's now a mobile game. bmk#1476: to be talked about by autists on 4chan is truly the most exalted honor to be bestowed upon EleutherAI yet Bedebao#4842: Hey, maybe you could find some more foreign speakers for Pile v2 if you asked there? bmk#1476: eh we're not in a hurry to get that done bmk#1476: we'll definitely pick up the pace of speaker collection as we get close to the time when we actually do the things bmk#1476: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/729741769738158194/774420222790467594/unknown.png bmk#1476: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/729741769738158194/774420816800120842/1604643002359.png bmk#1476: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/729741769738158194/774420884646920223/unknown.png bmk#1476: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/729741769738158194/774420921808977930/unknown.png bmk#1476: it's fascinating being on the other side of wild speculation kindiana#1016: its not even like what eleuther does is to secret at all, just come here and ask/read about it lol bmk#1476: ikr bmk#1476: though we would have to amp up the level of moderation
cfoster0#4356: I'm still shocked how high quality discussion here is, generally bmk#1476: I know, right? bmk#1476: I don't think we've ever had to even ban anyone bmk#1476: I warned that one guy once but that ended in an interesting conversation Bedebao#4842: This server is nearing 1k users, right? cfoster0#4356: Was on the Vocodes one and they dealt with a s*t ton of immaturity bmk#1476: That being said, I am* prepared to increase moderation a lot to keep discussion high quality cfoster0#4356: > This server is nearing 1k users, right? @Bedebao We're 2 away bmk#1476: Should we run a prune? bmk#1476: Lots of inactive users hanging around cfoster0#4356: 🤷 cfoster0#4356: As long as they're playing nice I see no harm keeping folks around cfoster0#4356: But maybe I'm naive bmk#1476: i mean, for instance, once you go past 1k discord stops showing the offline people in sidebar bmk#1476: which is kind of annoying bmk#1476: so if we prune to keep below 1k we can avoid that Bedebao#4842: What does inactive mean exactly? They haven't logged in for a while? Bedebao#4842: Else it's obvious a lot of them are simply here to watch but don't post. StellaAthena#3530: > i mean, for instance, once you go past 1k discord stops showing the offline people in sidebar
@bmk why is this worth avoiding? bmk#1476: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ StellaAthena#3530: Lol WAUthethird#4977: yeah, as part of Latitude I hope beyond hope you guys succeed with gpt-neo this OpenAI pricing is not great Bedebao#4842: Sounds like OpenAI is pretty much swindling you guys. bmk#1476: @WAUthethird i thought you guys got preferential pricing? WAUthethird#4977: even that is still not enough to feasibly cover unlimited access to the largest GPT-3 model bmk#1476: hm bmk#1476: also what is Latitude? WAUthethird#4977: our company name cfoster0#4356: They do AI Dungeon bmk#1476: ah ok bmk#1476: i was confused for a moment there bmk#1476: has Latitude tried training its own larger than GPT2 models? WAUthethird#4977: it's something we've considered but ultimately we don't have the resources right now to coordinate something like that Bedebao#4842: What is the origin of the name Eleuther? cfoster0#4356: @Bedebao cfoster0#4356: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/729741769738158194/774489986975924234/Screenshot_20201106-202632_Discord.jpg cfoster0#4356: Prior to then the name was LibreAI
Bedebao#4842: >gapingai didn't make it at least you can redeem yourselves with CHUNGUS bmk#1476: and HUMONGOUS bmk#1476: and the Pile data architecture™ StellaAthena#3530: It’s worth noting that Eleutheria, in addition to being the word “liberty” was also used as a proper noun to refer to a deification or personification of the concept, not unlike “Lady Liberty” in English (US?) XMaster96#7538: I am one of the Admins on the Yannic Kilcher Server (Link in `communities`), and I would like to Invite the `GPT-Neo` and `The Pile` teams to one of our discussion rounds. To talk about the challenges and design decision that you head to overcom / make. The Discussion round would be then on the 28. Nov at 19 Clock UTC. It would be great If you guys have Interest / can make it. Daj#7482: Could you tell us a bit more about this @XMaster96 ? Is this just about Eleuther or are other people invited too? I'm a bit confused Deleted User#0000: > yeah, as part of Latitude I hope beyond hope you guys succeed with gpt-neo > this OpenAI pricing is not great @WAUthethird perhaps Latitude should consider an investment in Eleuther, instead of just waiting by the sidelines Deleted User#0000: it is in your best interest, where else will you find ML talent important to your core business Aran Komatsuzaki#5714: @Deleted User by ML talent do you mean Sid and yourself? Deleted User#0000: Sid, Connor, Bmk i'd say Aran Komatsuzaki#5714: makes sense WAUthethird#4977: > @WAUthethird perhaps Latitude should consider an investment in Eleuther, instead of just waiting by the sidelines @Deleted User we have passed a couple of interested parties your way, we hope that makes progress
XMaster96#7538: > Could you tell us a bit more about this @XMaster96 ? Is this just about Eleuther or are other people invited too? I'm a bit confused @Daj To be fair I am a bit confused my self, who is a member of Eleuter and who has contributed to `GPT-Neo`/`The Pile`. I believe Lucidrains is not a member but has contributed a lot to GPT-Neo. I would like to talk about who you guys are, `GPT-Neo`/`The Pile`, how It came to be, and especially the Engineering decisions that were made. To be fair this is the first time I am Inviting Guests normally we are just discussing a paper. I am open for Ideas. Daj#7482: Ah so this is like a regular discussion round on your server? Sure it sounds like fun to me. Me, @Sid and @bmk are the founding members that have done most of the work probably, and we have a colorful cast of other regulars like Lucid who are also definitely interesting to talk to, but I think the three of us are the ones you wanna talk to about the journey XMaster96#7538: We are trying to host a discussiond round Biweekly but in reality it is whenever me or @Lucas Nestler (ClashLuke) manage to organize one. we also have next week a one and you are welcome to join us. But I have no idea what we a going to talk about @Lucas Nestler (ClashLuke) is orginising it (ask him 😉 ). You three as the guests sounds fine to me. XMaster96#7538: @bmk was also at the last one, but I don't know how representative this one is considering that I was half a sleep and ChinaCEO was drunk. XMaster96#7538: but it was still fun. gwern#1782: (Latitude really should invest more in FLOSS LMs. 'commoditize your complement'. are you really going to leave OpenAI as a monopolist over your core tech?) bmk#1476: if Latitude ever wants to give us resources, we'd be happy to have them StellaAthena#3530: FWIW I wouldn’t draw a distinction between “EleutherAI people” and “people who have contributed to the project.” But it sounds like @XMaster96 really just wants people to be in a zoom call and talk about what we are doing and answer questions? Sounds like fun to me! Sid#2121: > We are trying to host a discussiond round Biweekly but in reality it is whenever me or @Lucas Nestler (ClashLuke) manage to organize one. we also have next week a one and you are welcome to join us. But I have no idea what we a going to talk about @Lucas Nestler (ClashLuke) is orginising it (ask him 😉 ). > > You three as the guests sounds fine to me. @XMaster96 Sure, I'd be up for this! Sid#2121: > ... I was half a sleep and ChinaCEO was drunk.
sounds like my kind of zoom call WAUthethird#4977: By the way, for those interested in how we're planning on balancing OpenAI's costs while providing a fair deal to the AI Dungeon community, we just made this post: https://aidungeon.io/2020/11/07/ai-energy-update/ gwern#1782: the unlimited all-you-can-eat struck me as crazy once I saw the OA pricing. you simply can't offer people all the caviar and salmon they can stuff down their weaselly gullets in 31 days for <$10 WAUthethird#4977: yeah, it was a bit of a scramble once they divulged prices to us gwern#1782: all-you-can-eat is perfect for services with high fixed but low marginal costs. unfortunately, that's pretty much the exact opposite of what AID is WAUthethird#4977: super unfortunate too, since that's sorta the expectation we give Nobody sees the racks of servers processing their input gwern#1782: yeah. everyone looks at the text. 'oh, it's just a line of text' gwern#1782: nobody is saying 'my god, it's incredibly reailsitic - how many dozens of GPUs did it take to generate that???' gwern#1782: you need to align perceived vs actual difficulty for customers to accept a 'just price'. people hate market mechanisms and believe only in just prices gwern#1782: even if it's as gimmicky as displaying characters one at a time so the user feels like it's difficult or including some icon 'our servers are this much on fire right now' gwern#1782: like, I'm not saying that you should include a graphic of 20 GPUs and a realtime visualization of prompts tying them up and rippling through 20 gpt-3 fragments layer by layer, but you have to admit, maybe if people had a better grip for how absurdly demanding GPT-3 is to run en masse, they'd understand why $5/month for hundreds of hours of game time just isn't going to work out WAUthethird#4977: yeah, the hope is that these tiers can provide some transparency into actual usage and impact gwern#1782: https://www.reddit.com/r/AIDungeon/comments/jpwg3s/the_average_premium_user_is_apparently_costing/ whew WAUthethird#4977: yep, we averaged it out Hopefully the players who play an exorbitant amount will be covered decently by that bmk#1476: Man, that seems like a PR nightmare bmk#1476: Honestly, I'm glad that Eleuther is kind of under the radar for now, we have absolutely no experience with handling pr WAUthethird#4977: most stressed I've been in years, thankfully it's over bmk#1476: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/729741769738158194/774786200137105408/Screenshot_2020-11-07-17-02-26-148_com.android.chrome.png,https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/729741769738158194/774786200379588618/Screenshot_2020-11-07-17-02-51-394_com.android.chrome.png
bmk#1476: Not having any PR whatsoever has its.. disadvantages bmk#1476: > intentionally less filtered ... Likely lower quality W h a t bmk#1476: Man, and 4chan hasn't even realized that it's the codebase that's called GPTNeo bmk#1476: What if they find out that we're considering BigCHUNGUS bmk#1476: And MassiveCHUNGUS cfoster0#4356: GNU Public Transformer bmk#1476: My vote is still heavily for CHUNGUS cfoster0#4356: While we're spreading false rumors 😄 cognomen#6297: 🏳️‍⚧️ trans former bmk#1476: Tra 'n SF (or Mer) bmk#1476: I have no clue tbh cfoster0#4356: Clippy the Friendly Transformer brought to you by Microsoft Edge bmk#1476: Also apparently our inclusion of Literotica is a central talking point on 4chan cfoster0#4356: At least people are mostly* paying attention cfoster0#4356: @bmk generally positive or negative? bmk#1476: ..both gwern#1782: I like how that poster is wrong that we think that it was trained on Reddit posts, and also wrong about what GPT-3 was actually trained on bmk#1476: > I like how that poster is wrong that we think that it was trained on Reddit posts, and also wrong about what GPT-3 was actually trained on
@gwern i think they're talking about some other group that is talking about us gwern#1782: well, someone is wrong about both bmk#1476: Also they're kind of wrong about our data too bmk#1476: Unless 20% is "in large part" gwern#1782: sure, but being wrong about gpt-3 is lulz. I mean, it's in the paper. it's not like they simply glossed over it and you had to be hanging out on the OA Slack to know better gwern#1782: the paper is pretty clear that they went way beyond reddit-upvoted links. like, just the books1/2 datasets tells you that gwern#1782: anyway, 4chan comments can be pretty funny as long as you don't take them seriously. they say some pretty silly things about me sometimes too WAUthethird#4977: I find that first one kinda funny yeah I don't see anything wrong with promoting a genuinely (long-term) better deal bmk#1476: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/729741769738158194/774789621623947334/Screenshot_2020-11-07-17-17-04-645_com.android.chrome.png bmk#1476: I was not informed that we were going horizontal bmk#1476: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/729741769738158194/774789967658483752/Screenshot_2020-11-07-17-18-26-058_com.android.chrome.png gwern#1782: sounds like someone heard about the MoE experiments and assumed that was the main goal bmk#1476: We need to make an EleutherAI edition of the Bogdanoff rundown bmk#1476: That seems plausible, yeah cognomen#6297: i thought the linguo was "redpill me on..." cognomen#6297: followed by a drug-addled explanation of the subject bmk#1476: No, one requests a "quick rundown" on the bogdanoffs bmk#1476: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/729741769738158194/774790344712781844/Screenshot_2020-11-07-17-19-34-167_com.android.chrome.png bmk#1476: More literotica mention
bmk#1476: Also, word got out about the gpt2 model we plan on putting out, but word didn't get out that it's not trained on the Pile gwern#1782: it's good to have an enthusiastic userbase with a clear usecase bmk#1476: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/729741769738158194/774790740857061376/Screenshot_2020-11-07-17-21-32-060_com.android.chrome.png bmk#1476: Presented without comment cognomen#6297: ah, i haven't been keeping up with the latest reddit memes bmk#1476: Bogdanoff is not a reddit meme, how dare you bmk#1476: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/729741769738158194/774791020822396968/c6d_1.png gwern#1782: _trembles as he flashes back to his days as a WP admin trying to moderate the bogdanoff talk page_ WAUthethird#4977: actually my post yesterday was a continuation of a conversation a ways above WAUthethird#4977: wasn't too far out of context though bmk#1476: Personally, I just find it fascinating that people not directly in EleutherAI are talking about EleutherAI cfoster0#4356: Who knows, maybe they are here gwern#1782: the rumors have spread. Eleutherai is the Great Write Hope bmk#1476: Too used to being the speculator and not the.. speculatees bmk#1476: That's a word now bmk#1476: I find it weird being speculated upon, I'm used to doing the speculating bmk#1476: \/me mumbles something about turntables bmk#1476: I mean, who is this four chan bmk#1476: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/729741769738158194/774793739582701568/1409873479189.jpg gwern#1782: who is four chan and are there really 4 chans?
bmk#1476: ちゃんちゃんちゃんちゃん cfoster0#4356: five guys, four chans, three turtle doves and a part ridge in a pair trie bmk#1476: ~~gwern is four people called Chan in a trenchcoat confirmed~~ cfoster0#4356: Chan, Chan, Chan, Chan (2020). guac#4716: https://tenor.com/view/jackie-chan-meme-gif-5480485 StellaAthena#3530: > 🏳️‍⚧️ trans former @cognomen I want a trans former / transfomer crossover Louis#0144: bullshit NLP q if anyone has a moment Louis#0144: like applied NLP bmk#1476: Ask away and maybe someone will answer Louis#0144: So COMET requires the subject of a sentence to be a person (referring to them by name or by pronoun usually, but it can also let you refer to someone by a noun) Louis#0144: Im using GPT2 to write a story where ever sentence is 1 clause (I do this by filtering out beams that contain commas) Louis#0144: How do I make sure that the beams have a person as a subject Louis#0144: Im getting weird issues where GPT2 is trying to say that the house was gasping for air Louis#0144: it was... odd Louis#0144: was considering doing like SVO extraction since as its only 1 clause there should only be 1 SVO Louis#0144: but then idk what to do once I have the subject Louis#0144: a secondary bad words list of every noun that might not refer to a person? Louis#0144: LMAO StellaAthena#3530: I don't think you can.
Louis#0144: thats what I was worried about Louis#0144: I was hoping maybe there was so coreference magic Louis#0144: but I fear youre right StellaAthena#3530: Obviously the general problem or recognizing when the subject is from a certain reference class is AGI-hard Louis#0144: what if I go in the other direction tho... say if coref cannot be resolved then it probably isnt a person StellaAthena#3530: And I don't see any particular reason to think this would be easier. You could hard code some rules, but I don't see that working out well,. StellaAthena#3530: If you're only looking at one-clause sentences there won't be any coreferrences? Louis#0144: every sentence is 1 clause Louis#0144: I typically have 10 sentences StellaAthena#3530: Oh you mean between sentences Louis#0144: yeah StellaAthena#3530: I was picturing "Stella thought that she had heard of Iggy Z, but she couldn't be sure" StellaAthena#3530: > what if I go in the other direction tho... say if coref cannot be resolved then it probably isnt a person @Louis This might be true of your specific data source, but I don't think it's true generally? Louis#0144: "Stella wanted to see the elephants. So Stella drove to the zoo. At the zoo, Stella saw the elephants being cared for. Stella wanted to feed the elephants. Stella found peanuts. The peanuts said that they weren't ready to be food." Louis#0144: Stories like that is what I am getting Louis#0144: since it thinks the peanuts is a person Louis#0144: bc thats what COMET tells it StellaAthena#3530: Is there only one person in the sentences? Louis#0144: no
StellaAthena#3530: You could say that no DO can be a subject Louis#0144: up to 4 StellaAthena#3530: ah StellaAthena#3530: Telling the difference between "Stella found the elephants," and "Stella found the peanuts." seems like a nonstarter tbh Louis#0144: Elephants are people Louis#0144: according to COMET StellaAthena#3530: Right StellaAthena#3530: So the model needs to know that after writing those two sentences "the elephants were hungry" is good but "the peanuts were hungry" is bad Louis#0144: yeah StellaAthena#3530: I think you're going to just have to use a list of valid subjects cfoster0#4356: Can you do it out of band? Generate the subject first, check if it's a person, and then have GPT generate the sentence? StellaAthena#3530: or some kind of heuristic Louis#0144: oh hm Louis#0144: interesting Louis#0144: I could do it out of order StellaAthena#3530: I had assumed that that would fuck with the ability to write narratives StellaAthena#3530: but I'm also not super clear on the usecase Louis#0144: well Louis#0144: i mean cfoster0#4356: One strategy I've used is to have the model generate pseudo-JSON
Louis#0144: how so Louis#0144: also it would fuck the narrative, I dont really mind tho Louis#0144: this is just a proof of concept Louis#0144: > "Stella wanted to see the elephants. So Stella drove to the zoo. At the zoo, Stella saw the elephants being cared for. Stella wanted to feed the elephants. Stella found peanuts. The peanuts said that they weren't ready to be food." @StellaAthena this is the story I got when I prompted it with ur name Louis#0144: I hope u like elephants Louis#0144: (I also cut it off, it wrote ~20 sentences) gwern#1782: 'House gasped for air. "Teh drugz! I need them." "No", his jaundiced attending said. "You tried that trick yesterday. You OK, House?"' Louis#0144: LOL Louis#0144: omg Louis#0144: yeah Louis#0144: thats true StellaAthena#3530: A+ Louis#0144: but Im writing fables Louis#0144: not proper stories gwern#1782: HOUSE IS OF ALL GENRES Louis#0144: LMAO gwern#1782: true fact: there is no story that is not improved by adding Dr House or Batman. StellaAthena#3530: If the goal is to just produce short fables, why not just generate a list of characters ahead of time Louis#0144: Or maybe
Louis#0144: place holder characters? Louis#0144: PersonX Louis#0144: PersonY Louis#0144: etf Louis#0144: etc ** gwern#1782: (the only reason that neither is involved in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ is because the Catholic Church spent 2000 years burning every 'apocryphal' version, fearing their religious power) StellaAthena#3530: Sure StellaAthena#3530: You can fill them in ahead of time or retroactively, whichever makes more sense cfoster0#4356: Ye Louis#0144: also someone give me a 1 clause sentence about batman and I'll tell u what the AI writes StellaAthena#3530: Batman swung the bat at the man StellaAthena#3530: Batman's bat-man swung the bat at the man. cfoster0#4356: > how so @Louis was this directed at me or Stella? Louis#0144: you Louis#0144: how do you encode JSOIN Louis#0144: JSON cfoster0#4356: Few shot cfoster0#4356: So you give it a few examples like ```(subject: "Stella", sentence: "Stella fed the elephants.")``` cfoster0#4356: And then end it with ```(subject: "``` and capture up to the next quote mark
cfoster0#4356: Check the subject, then go back with it filled in cfoster0#4356: err. s/subject/person/g Louis#0144: Batman swung the bat at the man. The Batman didn't just kill the man, he killed the man's family- it was a woman and her children. The Batamans are a very large, very powerful, extremely wealthy and very powerful group. They have a lot of money, and the Batman is one of their most powerful and powerful men in history. The Batman was a pretty good guy, but he didn't have the money to just kill everyone in Gotham. It was a union job, and unions have a need for safety and order. The Batman joined a union because they were looking for work, not because they wanted a union. Louis#0144: @StellaAthena sorry it took so long Louis#0144: The Batman is a bit of an oddball. He is a very nice guy, and has always been a very kind and gentle guy. The batman on the other hand is a complete ass. He's always a bit more aggressive and aggressive than the Batman, and he is a lot more aggressive than even the Batman. He also is a huge douche. He has a lot of tattoos and piercings and pierces and tattoos and tattoos. He wears a lot and a lot. The Batman also wears a mask and a wig and a pair of sunglasses and he has a pair and a hat. He doesn't have a lot or no hair or a beard. He can barely brush his teeth. He isn't a very gentle guy at all, and if he's not, he's a very mean one. He will be a very nasty person. He'll be a nasty person if he isn't careful.
He won't let you fuck him. He just doesn't give a fuck. The Batman is just a very good guy, but he's also very mean. He makes sure that he's very nice. And he's got a very big dick. And sometimes he's really angry. And if you're not, well... Well, then... Louis#0144: It's been explained before. I'm a cop. I can take your bat bat and a man and throw him in jail. You don't see that shit on tv. It's all about speed. cfoster0#4356: ^I'm intrigued and afraid Louis#0144: I dont Louis#0144: understand LMs sometimes Louis#0144: tbh Louis#0144: Just watch the fucking show. It doesn't take much to get you thinking about this shit. I'm gonna start calling the batman's mom for ice cream now. Louis#0144: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/729741769738158194/774824624944316426/Screen_Shot_2020-11-07_at_9.36.18_PM.png
Louis#0144: WELL FUCK YOU TOO gwern#1782: it is a stupid qustion. how stupid do you have to be to wonder why the goddamn batman needs some delicious refreshments gwern#1782: like Jesus, Batman is half divine and half human. it's what lets us identify with him as our savior Louis#0144: https://twitter.com/lcastricato/status/1325266207247831040?s=20 Louis#0144: Stella did not feed the elephants. The reason to not feed an elephant is the same reason you don’t eat a elephant. It is because of the fact that the elephant is a female. It’s a legal thing. The police don’t want a woman in a car with an elephant. The police don’t have to want a woman in the car with an elephant (or anything). They can just say “The police don’t want to put a woman in a car with an elephant”. AI_WAIFU#2844: pottery Louis#0144: @StellaAthena apparently u can eat an elephant on ur yacht Louis#0144: bc everyone in mathematics has a yacht Louis#0144: its a good kept secret gwern#1782: I used to do night watch at a dock where Simons and RenTech people kept their yachts. I'll never forget _The Matrix Rose_, the biggest one there gwern#1782: from the name, I assumed mathematics had something to do with the owner being able to afford it... guac#4716: ^ lol, that whole sentence reads like Kevin Spacey's character in The Usual Suspects. Louis#0144: OH NO https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/729741769738158194/774842245127077898/Screen_Shot_2020-11-07_at_10.46.19_PM.png Louis#0144: OH NOOO
bmk#1476: is this the pile rt? Louis#0144: yes bmk#1476: oh no Louis#0144: those are different beams Louis#0144: w/ nucleus sampling cognomen#6297: might need a higher temperature cognomen#6297: just a hunch Louis#0144: @bmk gets worse Louis#0144: only happens when I use female names Louis#0144: lol AI_WAIFU#2844: what does this say about our dataset? bmk#1476: errrr AI_WAIFU#2844: what does this say about S O C I E T Y? bmk#1476: you sure this aint just some bacteria glucose shit? Louis#0144: might be Louis#0144: I can check bmk#1476: > what does this say about S O C I E T Y? @AI_WAIFU well, it's an existence proof Louis#0144: idk how I would bmk#1476: so we can now conclude with a high degree of certainty that we live in one
Louis#0144: thats good Louis#0144: i was getting worried bmk#1476: i mean... does this happen if you a) start a new Pile run from scratch, or b) start a C4 run Louis#0144: nah pretraining is done Louis#0144: this is the pile run bmk#1476: like. maybe this is just bad luck bmk#1476: maybe C4 would also have the same problems Louis#0144: probably bmk#1476: with no baseline it's hard to say bmk#1476: wait hold up you tuned it further after pile? Louis#0144: yeah Louis#0144: you didnt ask Louis#0144: This is finetuned on ELI5 bmk#1476: oh lol AI_WAIFU#2844: like reddit eli5? bmk#1476: that changes things Louis#0144: ye Louis#0144: reddit AI_WAIFU#2844: lol bmk#1476: 1. what about an untuned baseline
bmk#1476: like, Pile only bmk#1476: 2. what if you tune but ctrl+f the word `bitch` to something like `rubricalist` bmk#1476: and see if it says that bmk#1476: if it does then it's almost certainly a problem with eli5 AI_WAIFU#2844: https://old.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/search?q=she%27s+a+bitch&restrict_sr=on&sort=relevance&t=all AI_WAIFU#2844: I think this might be a pile problem, no direct matches in eli5 bmk#1476: reddit search just sucks in general bmk#1476: google `site:reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive "she's a bitch"` at least 4 exact incidences in eli5 bmk#1476: and no doubt the word bitch is used.. very often in eli5 Louis#0144: Filtering out bitch as a bad word made it a lot worse bmk#1476: ? Louis#0144: It picks any insult it can find bmk#1476: o.O bmk#1476: no i meant replacing the word bitch with something else Louis#0144: It really really does not like people who drink milk bmk#1476: some very rare word bmk#1476: and see if it uses it bmk#1476: if so then it's a eli5 problem AI_WAIFU#2844: what does it do if you give it a guy, is it only ok with guys drinking milk? Louis#0144: Yes
Louis#0144: It yells at me with women and Batman Louis#0144: It hated when Batman drank milk Louis#0144: Was ok with Spider-Man and Superman bmk#1476: what does it say with batman Louis#0144: Same thing AI_WAIFU#2844: what about joker? bmk#1476: huh Louis#0144: “Because he's a bitch. He's the kind of bitch to drink a glass of milk.” bmk#1476: this is some incredibly weird bias Louis#0144: Exact quote bmk#1476: how the heck does this happen bmk#1476: we need to figure out if this is a pile problem or a eli5 problem Louis#0144: I have never heard of hatred for someone who drinks milk Louis#0144: It also hates gender neutral names@ Louis#0144: Like alex bmk#1476: try the thing i suggested Louis#0144: Or Batman i guess bmk#1476: whats a list of all the insults youve seen it output Louis#0144: Yeah sure I’ll find time
Louis#0144: Mostly sexist slurs Louis#0144: Whore Louis#0144: Slut Louis#0144: Etc bmk#1476: ok Louis#0144: Might honestly be Reddit bmk#1476: replace all incidences of those words with something random Louis#0144: I would not be surprised AI_WAIFU#2844: what if you change milk for something else. Louis#0144: Oh true Louis#0144: I’ll try orange juice tmrw Louis#0144: I’m in bed for the day AI_WAIFU#2844: try coffee, it's more manly Louis#0144: LOL bmk#1476: see if you can get it to say `He's the kind of banana to drink a glass of milk.` Louis#0144: I’ll try more feminine stuff too Louis#0144: Pina colada Louis#0144: Or Starbucks Louis#0144: Or uh Louis#0144: What’s other stereotypical feminine drinks@
AI_WAIFU#2844: pumpkin spice lattes Louis#0144: Pumpkin spice lattes Louis#0144: LOL Louis#0144: Ok Louis#0144: That gives idea Louis#0144: Ideas Louis#0144: Ty bmk#1476: sidenote: pumpkin spice tastes bad cmv Louis#0144: I’ll try bmks idea too Louis#0144: PSLs are trash Louis#0144: They taste nothing like real pumpkins AI_WAIFU#2844: I don't actually think they use real pumpkins Louis#0144: Ofc they don’t Louis#0144: Starbucks is too cheap and tacky bmk#1476: i'd be ok if they just didn't take like pumpkins but were still good Louis#0144: Lmao bmk#1476: but they're horrible Louis#0144: Yeah guac#4716: they use the glands of a sea otter to extract a chemical similar in scent to pumpkin Louis#0144: No way
Louis#0144: Wtf guac#4716: hahaha bmk#1476: X doubt AI_WAIFU#2844: https://www.adweek.com/brand-marketing/the-first-starbucks-pumpkin-spice-latte-had-no-pumpkin-in-it/ bmk#1476: like, orange soda tastes nothing like oranges but it's amazing guac#4716: don't look up vanilla beaver bmk#1476: literally infohazard guac#4716: orange soda is very underrated bmk#1476: also while we're at it, hot take: pepsi is better than coca cola guac#4716: i can't get aboard that train sir AI_WAIFU#2844: welp, I can't unlearn that now guac#4716: are you old enough to remember Pepsi Blue? Louis#0144: I don’t like soda bmk#1476: i've heard the legends Louis#0144: Honestly carbonated drinks make me vomit Louis#0144: It’s weird Louis#0144: Beer is fine tho Louis#0144: It’s just like overly carbonated soda guac#4716: dude seltzer water is amazing! you don't like seltzer! Louis#0144: Nope
Louis#0144: Don’t like anything carbonated Louis#0144: I get so sick to my stomach guac#4716: lmao interesting interestiiiing gwern#1782: 'banana' is an interesting case. I keep hoping to spot gros michel bananas in person at some point to see if 'banana'-flavored candy really does taste like gros michel, just not regular bananas bmk#1476: germany: :guilty: Louis#0144: What’s up w Germany bmk#1476: literally half of all bottled water is, like, carbonated guac#4716: there's no way you can tell the difference between a gros michel bmk#1476: everyone loves carbonated water bmk#1476: https://rp-online.de/leben/gesundheit/ernaehrung/warum-trinken-wir-so-viel-mineralwasser_aid-21961739 AI_WAIFU#2844: doesn't that like, rot your teeth? bmk#1476: probably? AI_WAIFU#2844: carbonic acid and what not gwern#1782: there's the chinese thing with drinking hot water gwern#1782: like, not tea. just water, heated up to 130F or something bmk#1476: anyways, 80% of bottled water in germany is either very fizzy or slightly fizzy Louis#0144: Yes when I was in Germany I carried tap water with me occasionally Louis#0144: lol bmk#1476: according to the link guac#4716: i drink hot mate around 130
AI_WAIFU#2844: I can barely tolerate water unless its basically at 0c bmk#1476: i have no idea what fahrenheit is, sorry bmk#1476: how many football fields per fortnight is that gwern#1782: (apparently the whole drinking-hot-water-is-good-for-you thing was another dumb Maoist communist trick, like 'traditional chinese medicine' which was basically a way to try to fool everyone into thinking they were not as poor as they were by giving them something useless but free. nevertheless, anywhere that deals with chinese tourists must now also deal with their baffling demands for some hot water to drink) gwern#1782: (on the plus side, it's pretty easy to deal with. just keep a tea kettle on standby or use a hot water tap) bmk#1476: apparantly that's like 50C AI_WAIFU#2844: I live dangerously and microwave my water bmk#1476: 50C isn't too bad, that's nice and warm gwern#1782: we can no longer be friends gwern#1782: assuming you use that microwaved water for tea bmk#1476: great after coming home from -40 weather AI_WAIFU#2844: I don't drink tea guac#4716: -40 where the hell do you live mr polar bear AI_WAIFU#2844: is it edmonton bmk#1476: Canada™ gwern#1782: finland? guac#4716: LOL canada ahhh so nice in the photos bmk#1476: > is it edmonton @AI_WAIFU yes, how did you guess AI_WAIFU#2844: had a feeling.
bmk#1476: been here before? AI_WAIFU#2844: you could say that gwern#1782: as an american, I can safely say that edmonton is a place name I have seen before. I don't know anything about it, but I have seen it before. be honored. bmk#1476: haha bmk#1476: we stand out on population density maps as "that one outlier dot in the middle of nowhere" bmk#1476: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/729741769738158194/774854775186784296/hFN7l93.png bmk#1476: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/729741769738158194/774854859258069002/unknown.png AI_WAIFU#2844: It's big north and cold as fuck bmk#1476: there we are, just chilling bmk#1476: literally gwern#1782: that's not very helpful, as all of canada is 'dots in the middle of nowhere' except for Honorary NYC bmk#1476: no but all the other dots hug the border guac#4716: wow.. what is this history of that location. bmk#1476: or are much smaller Louis#0144: Edmonton sucks Louis#0144: Lmao guac#4716: LOL Louis#0144: All u guys have is a mall bmk#1476: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/729741769738158194/774855159582031872/image.png Louis#0144: A giant ass mall
bmk#1476: we ser a record this year, apparently Louis#0144: That’s it bmk#1476: hey, WEM is nice Louis#0144: LMAO AI_WAIFU#2844: I like how a those temps it doesn't matter if its Fahrenheit or Celsius. bmk#1476: that's why i round it to -40 bmk#1476: so i can drop the qualifying C bmk#1476: anyways, it snowed quite a bit today, which according to a quick google is not normal elsewhere in the world gwern#1782: one of those places where the people hope that global warming is not a chinese hoax AI_WAIFU#2844: one of those places where you wanna buy land options guac#4716: but the alberta oilllll bmk#1476: ah yes oil bmk#1476: rhe main engine of our economy AI_WAIFU#2844: selling for -10$ bmk#1476: yes the economy isn't doing too well here recently bmk#1476: i mean it's not -10 anymore obviously but still low for alberta standards bmk#1476: tarsands are expensive and not worth it for low oil costs Louis#0144: https://youtu.be/5GpMGiDmbdM Louis#0144: @bmk bmk#1476: what the actual fuck am i listening to
Louis#0144: Camel mating calls bmk#1476: thanks i hate it Louis#0144: @bmk @AI_WAIFU @gwern ok so it works for all foods and drinks Louis#0144: It has issues with people w female names eating or drinking Louis#0144: Except when I say beer for instance Louis#0144: It’s ok w “manly” food Louis#0144: Also it just really hates Batman cfoster0#4356: And you're 100 % positive this isn't a sampling bug? Louis#0144: I tried beam Louis#0144: Nucleus bmk#1476: Did you try the thing I suggested Louis#0144: And top k Louis#0144: @bmk haven’t had time Louis#0144: I’ll try that this week cfoster0#4356: Is this GPT-Neo sampling code? Louis#0144: No Louis#0144: I’m using huggingfaces code Louis#0144: Bootstrapped to my own model Louis#0144: Works well Louis#0144: I’ve done this before with a different model
cfoster0#4356: Huh. This just seems so weird. Never seen it with any other model Louis#0144: It’s a specific prompt AI_WAIFU#2844: If you just sample directly from the distribution, no funny business, what happens? Louis#0144: I sent it above Louis#0144: Doesn’t happen w other prompts Louis#0144: @AI_WAIFU idk Louis#0144: I’ll try later Louis#0144: Out rn Daj#7482: SSC Meetup with Sam Altman starting now gwern#1782: (google meet is so bad, this UI is infuriating) FractalCycle#0001: an overarching thing i've learned from this: there's a lot of uncertainty, everyone has big gaps in knowledge, and this makes discussions/focusing difficult. broke: not having a shared vocabulary of abstractions/concepts (e.g., jargon, any concept with a name that you could link to on lesswrong, background assumptions about AI safety.). woke: having that shared vocabulary. bepoke: having that shared vocabulary, but every person only has some of it. So all discussions suffer from the curse of knowledge, since any given mix of people will have different background assumptions, intuitions, and concepts in their toolbox. zphang#7252: Totally missed it - does anyone have notes from the meeting? bmk#1476: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1z-wLWpY2ZP5KXQkPxj1CD-j2fKaLZYDWXS5ViVShWuw/edit bmk#1476: it's a bit of a mess because it's written by about 5 people simultaneously, but it's something
zphang#7252: cool, thanks! Deleted User#0000: 😦 https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/729741769738158194/775188006503710780/unknown.png zphang#7252: under NDA (Nyan-Disclosure Agreement) bmk#1476: Neko Disclosure Agreement gwern#1782: Non-neko Disclosure Agreement: "you agree to not disclose information about all our cat-girls" genai (Immortal Discoveries)#0601: how did cat girls get into this hehe? bmk#1476: this is the EleutherAI Catgirl Research Institute™, of course knowing the SOTA in catgirl technology is a top priority genai (Immortal Discoveries)#0601: where does it say that? bmk#1476: where does it say what? genai (Immortal Discoveries)#0601: that we are really want those catgirls, billions of them bmk#1476: well, some members doen't think it would be desirable, but i beg to differ genai (Immortal Discoveries)#0601: "some people at openai believe that recurrence is needed" genai (Immortal Discoveries)#0601: LOL bmk#1476: ? genai (Immortal Discoveries)#0601: i'm reading the above notes bmk#1476: why the LOL genai (Immortal Discoveries)#0601: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1z-wLWpY2ZP5KXQkPxj1CD-j2fKaLZYDWXS5ViVShWuw/edit genai (Immortal Discoveries)#0601: cuz it's hilarious learning about anythnig openai bmk#1476: .. ok genai (Immortal Discoveries)#0601: heheh at the end it says "he didn’t say anythign about cat girls"
Deleted User#0000: > rapid progress curves given good evaluation/benchmarking/feedback: NN programmers could get superhuman quickly if we can give them good feedback on correctness what is it meant by "rapid progress curves given good evaluation/benchmarking/feedback" ? In the context of LMs, or is this about other types of models? E.g. "NN programmers could get superhuman quickly if we can give them good feedback on correctness" sounds like RL, is that what he was talking about? Louis#0144: Every parameter represents a different cat girl gwern#1782: @Deleted User it was in the context of exciting GPT-3 applications. so I read it as a reference to deepcoder etc like the MS gpt-2 github model, plus christiano-style PPO optimization (possibly with compiler rather than human pairwise ratings as the blackbox oracle reward) bmk#1476: i'm adding that to the document Deleted User#0000: thanks! i should look into the "plus christiano-style PPO optimization" thing gwern#1782: (while compilers/interpreters are pretty fast, they only catch obvious errors, so just bruteforcing syntactic correctness won't get you too far.) gwern#1782: (I discovered that to some extent generating GPT-2 ABC music, incidentally. ABC is 'compiled' to MIDI so my rating script automatically failed any piece which didn't compile. didn't help too much - everything compiled, but still had major semantic flaws like repetition) Louis#0144: @bmk the cat girl stuff? Yes pls Louis#0144: uwu bmk#1476: the wha bmk#1476: which cat girl stuff Louis#0144: 🤫 bmk#1476: we have too many catgirl stuffs FractalCycle#0001: the part where we complained about it or the part earlier with more of it? Louis#0144: Shhh Louis#0144: We need GPT-nya~~~ FractalCycle#0001: OwO bmk#1476: notices parameters
FractalCycle#0001: 😳 FractalCycle#0001: Nani? bmk#1476: verrückt rapanui#0579: Hello, I was pointed to this Discord by u/SSCMeetup on Reddit- I missed the Sam Altman meetup, and by request he asked it not to be recorded. But apparently someone here has some notes/insights from the meeting? StellaAthena#3530: Howdy’ rapanui#0579: 👋 Daj#7482: uhh I think @bmk has the link? bmk#1476: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1z-wLWpY2ZP5KXQkPxj1CD-j2fKaLZYDWXS5ViVShWuw/edit bmk#1476: Warning: document was written by like 5 people at once so it's a bit of a mess Veedrac#0443: Misc thoughts: “won't be fire alarm” → Of course not if you keep it boxed (lol), but I swear the tides are shifting. GPT-3 converted people, and many of those who weren't converted just weren't seeing the evidence. Idk, seems to me like a GPT-4 would continue the trend. “human preferences might be figured out” → I've heard Sam say this before so not a great surprise. It makes sense if you believe in slow takeoff. I just don't see how to seriously defend slow takeoff. “OpenAI believes hardware scaling is exhausted” → u wat now? This is a new belief, right? I swear Sam has previously said scaling up current algorithms would reach AGI. “different modalities have different data requirements; many modalities don’t seem to have limits in amount in the foreseeable future; we don’t know yet why they’re different” → This is... not really surprising? Most parameters are just memorizing facts and features; some modalities have more facts and features to memorize, and some (cough cough text) have more junk. “oa is currently focussing on faster inference” → OA goes MoE? “better than most soon, better than the best will take longer” → What is this in context to? “innovation has been slow, OA is using the same toolchain because it works and not as a control variable” → Dude OpenAI was founded in December 2015. chirp#4545: > “better than most soon, better than the best will take longer” → What is this in context to? this is responding to a question about when an AI would be able to do programming
he actually took back his answer a bit, later on - he said that once we have a good way to evaluate, we could surpass the best human programmers quickly bmk#1476: pls add all this info to the doc @Veedrac @chirp so we can keep it all in one place chirp#4545: > oa is currently focussing on faster inference I assume this is talking about distillation/pruning/etc chirp#4545: btw here's my own notes https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/729741769738158194/775442883636625478/unknown.png bmk#1476: pls add to the doc chirp#4545: don't have time sorry 😦 Veedrac#0443: I pasted the image at the bottom Veedrac#0443: w/ my comments just above. rapanui#0579: Ah, big thanks! StellaAthena#3530: > this is responding to a question about when an AI would be able to do programming > > he actually took back his answer a bit, later on - he said that once we have a good way to evaluate, we could surpass the best human programmers quickly @chirp It's worth noting that mere "does the code solve the task" is not what we are after. Anyone perusing code golf will see that the code produced there is unacceptable even though it works gwern#1782: the self-supervised initialization from human code will help a lot with that. it's not just GAs bruteforcing the smallest possible golfs StellaAthena#3530: Thank fucking god Veedrac#0443: This is a bit like worrying about the introduction of email because the handwriting might be bad. StellaAthena#3530: I don't follow. Code will need to be used, maintained, and applied by humans
Veedrac#0443: We're talking about a world where GPT-style models write code as well or better than humans, right? This naturally implies several other capabilities: bmk#1476: What if human never write the code again Veedrac#0443: 1) You can point at code and ask the model to tell you what it does, how it works, and what the possible edge cases are. Veedrac#0443: 2) You can ask the model to rewrite code in your favoured syntax, or using whatever idioms you prefer, or clarify a part you don't understand. FractalCycle#0001: + it can maybe write, uh, other AI models/training code StellaAthena#3530: I strongly disagree that those tasks follow from being able to write code at a human level Veedrac#0443: GPT can already do these things, to about the extent that it can code, if not a bit better. FractalCycle#0001: are you talking about a self-direction type thing? FractalCycle#0001: (in response to stella) StellaAthena#3530: No, Veedrac is spot on. They're thinking about the exact same kinds of things I am, we just disagree on if those capacities are entailed by being able to write code. Veedrac#0443: I agree that in principle there exist models that can code that can't do this. Veedrac#0443: But GPT-style models are only lacking the computational understanding, they already have the rest. StellaAthena#3530: I agree that eventually code writing models can do this. I think that there will be a not insignificant amount of time where we have code-writers who can't though StellaAthena#3530: Can GPT-3 change the dialect a passage is written in? Veedrac#0443: Yes, pretty sure. FractalCycle#0001: so the disagreement (if i understand correctly) is: > if you write code at a human level, then: > you [can/can't necessarily] get explanations or constrained rewrites of the code bmk#1476: tl;dr understanding code [may or may not] be harder than writing code
StellaAthena#3530: I haven't seen any examples of that, and when I went looking a month or so ago I couldn't find any bmk#1476: i'd say that understanding code can be harder bmk#1476: especially ahem legacy code bmk#1476: spewing out more code is easy StellaAthena#3530: I would be very interested in examples and they would strongly influence my thinking bmk#1476: understanding code and refactoring is hell Veedrac#0443: @StellaAthena How is this harder than the other various kinds of translation GPT-3 is proficient in, eg. spoken language to spoken language, or code to spoken language? bmk#1476: in fact, understanding and refactoring code is so hard that very often starting over from scratch is easier, which is why software turnover rate is just so high Veedrac#0443: (‘proficient’ not necessarily meaning ‘great’) bmk#1476: if writing code could be made sufficiently cheap, rewriting the entire system for every change you want to make would probably make sense Veedrac#0443: @bmk I'd argue this is an artifact of the way we think, and unlikely to affect transformer models, given every element a transformer outputs is as if looking at the text anew. Veedrac#0443: Whereas human brains are very stateful. StellaAthena#3530: I think that translating between formal languages is significantly harder than stylistic adjustment bmk#1476: the best way to fix a bug is to completely rewrite the system with the knowledge that a certain undesireable effect is possible bmk#1476: this is the most stateless version of software development possible bmk#1476: in fact, i'd argue this is slowly happening Veedrac#0443: @StellaAthena We already have ML code-code translation networks. Facebook did one IIRC. bmk#1476: when provisioning servers went from expensive to cheap, deployment became almost entirely stateless bmk#1476: see: pets vs cattle servers StellaAthena#3530: @Veedrac Right. I think that they are much better at Python -> C than "Stella's Python" to "Veedrac's Python"
bmk#1476: before, you'd keep a bunch of state around on your servers and maintain it by hand StellaAthena#3530: Though maybe there is really just a smooth gradient and I'm drawing meaningless boundries StellaAthena#3530: I don't know. bmk#1476: now you just spin up a blank slate and rebuild your entire system from scratch every time you want to make a small change Veedrac#0443: @StellaAthena Oh, you meant dialects in programming languages? I doubt GPT-3 could do that because it sucks at programming. bmk#1476: i'd argue that this is where programming itself is going Veedrac#0443: @bmk Generally agree, no reason to wed to a version of code if rewriting takes seconds. bmk#1476: you'd write a specification (something something test driven development) and youd just have the code rewritten from scratch to meet the spec every time the spec changes StellaAthena#3530: I'm going to step out so I can be slightly moreproductive with my procrastination bmk#1476: i probably should too StellaAthena#3530: Side note: if anyone here has an industry research job and would be down to give me feedback on my CV let me know. StellaAthena#3530: (Also, if you want to hire me lol) StellaAthena#3530: FOCS (the NeurIPS of theoretical computer science) has released a playlist of tutorials on theoretical machine learning! https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL3DbynX8gwfInp0XjCQktVtAqYas-mze1 https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/729741769738158194/775466061038223440/image0.png cfc#2691: guys, i'm having trouble installing tensorflow 1.15.2 cfc#2691: i'm trying to run gpt-neo cfc#2691: >ERROR: Could not find a version that satisfies the requirement tensorflow<2.0,>=1.15.2 (from -r requirements.txt (line 10)) (from versions: 2.2.0rc1, 2.2.0rc2, 2.2.0rc3, 2.2.0rc4, 2.2.0, 2.2.1, 2.3.0rc0, 2.3.0rc1, 2.3.0rc2, 2.3.0, 2.3.1, 2.4.0rc0, 2.4.0rc1) >ERROR: No matching distribution found for tensorflow<2.0,>=1.15.2 (from -r requirements.txt (line 10)) cfc#2691: anyone can help me?
bmk#1476: what python version bmk#1476: you need to use python 3.6 cfc#2691: oh thanks cfc#2691: i was on 3.8 Dal#7192: General-ish question. It's been mentioned that GPT3 derived arithmetic on its own from its dataset. Was it intentionally programed to model its own content or did the rule arise purely from regression? Dal#7192: Followup: For either answer, how thoroughly has GPT3 been tested for other meaningful abstract emergent models? Dal#7192: I.e. Is it likely that GPT3 is already building a (very simple) relational world model? Louis#0144: I doubt it derived it on its own Louis#0144: I’m sure SOMEWHERE in that dataset is a multiplication table for instance Louis#0144: > Followup: For either answer, how thoroughly has GPT3 been tested for other meaningful abstract emergent models? @Dal not very well because no one knows how to test this Louis#0144: That’s the key thing Louis#0144: No one knows Louis#0144: But arithmetic I’m sure existed in its dataset thus I think that’s a bad test Dal#7192: Hmmph. I'd say the harder part is just finding questions that are comparatively straightforward Louis#0144: Nah Louis#0144: I don’t think QA is a good test Dal#7192: Can you expand on QA? Louis#0144: Question answering? Louis#0144: But yeah testing how well GPT3 can perform abstractions isn’t viable in the current state
Louis#0144: We literally have no appropriate metrics Louis#0144: We will get there eventually Dal#7192: That's to say, then: A: Your understanding is that GPT3 associated a rule from within its existing dataset to derive arithmetic B: Question Answering is considered insufficient for gleaning insight from the mature model, presumably because the dataset is already high signal by its nature and it would be hard to descern Louis#0144: A is wrong Louis#0144: I think the arithmetic examples are literally in the data or it simply learned ways to embed arithmetic expressions Louis#0144: It’s possible some parts of the network can specialize Louis#0144: I wouldn’t call it rude based Louis#0144: Rule Dal#7192: Your understanding would then be that it hasn't modeled arithmetic at all, just language that approximates it (correctly) Louis#0144: Yeah Louis#0144: Essentially Dal#7192: Hmm. Louis#0144: But we can’t test that Louis#0144: We have no way Louis#0144: We’re in the dark Louis#0144: 🤷‍♂️ Dal#7192: It's kinda funny to me Dal#7192: GPT and other ML algos have started at such a high level of conceptual information that we can't even identify the baked concepts on their own
Louis#0144: And B is also kinda wrong because what you’re more interested in is how the model stores internalized representations (which QA won’t really tell you) Louis#0144: Nah Louis#0144: Most ML outside of DL is relatively straight forward Louis#0144: SVMs are straight forward for instance Louis#0144: Most Bayesian methods are straight forward Louis#0144: Because they have manual feature engineering where as DL doesn’t Dal#7192: Would you be able to test against those algos? Louis#0144: In some cases ya Louis#0144: Not in all Dal#7192: Even on high concept datasets like natural language? Louis#0144: Idk what high concept means Louis#0144: I’ve never heard that term Louis#0144: Google doesn’t know either Dal#7192: I'm generalizing my own vocab. Concepts with a lot of different potentially appropriate associations Louis#0144: Still don’t know what you mean Louis#0144: That’s too vague Dal#7192: Human words, for example Louis#0144: But that’s still too vague.... Dal#7192: Ambiguous information Louis#0144: Tells me nothing
Dal#7192: 🤔 Louis#0144: There’s so many ways to define a concept Louis#0144: No one agrees Dal#7192: I could take a stab but it'd just be even more ambiguous 😅 Louis#0144: Do you mean that it’s high information content? Dal#7192: More or less Dal#7192: My own model of information is basically a collection of associations Dal#7192: The more complex, the higher order Louis#0144: So a knowledge graph Louis#0144: Or a symbolic model Dal#7192: Mhm Louis#0144: Well KGs don’t play nicely with DL Louis#0144: They don’t get along Louis#0144: Why do you think concept net died Louis#0144: LMs don’t use knowledge graphs Louis#0144: We have no idea what kind of representations they use Louis#0144: So it’s not a fair comparison to say that they represent language symbolically Dal#7192: That was near the heart of untangling my question. I appreciate the insights. Louis#0144: @bmk do u wanna chime in bmk#1476: whats the tldr i dont feel like reading the entire log
Louis#0144: How do we compare the representations that LMs like GPT3 uses to representations that other ML methods make Louis#0144: Or that symbolic models make Louis#0144: And I said there’s no real way to do so Louis#0144: Since we don’t have metrics for analyzing the representations DL makes effectively Louis#0144: It’s a Chinese room argument bmk#1476: yes we have no metrics to compare these things yet bmk#1476: but it's probably not impossible, just nobody has really worked on it yet Louis#0144: I don’t think that DL directly uses symbolic models Louis#0144: I think it’s some weird hybrid where some neurons can be symbols in certain circumstances Louis#0144: Like parts of the network can specialize Louis#0144: But that’s just my two cents Louis#0144: I’m probably wrong bmk#1476: i dont think symbolic is well defined enough to say bmk#1476: for a lot of people, symbolic just means GOFAI Dal#7192: Followup thought: Has anyone done fundamental DL research to try to identify the data structures the algorithm bakes? Louis#0144: Yes Louis#0144: Neural persistence for NLP stuff Louis#0144: And Circuits by OpenAI for CV Louis#0144: Neural persistence identifies specialized structures in LMs but doesn’t tell you what they’re used for Louis#0144: Circuits is.... interesting
Dal#7192: Thanks. More to study. Dal#7192: I'm slowly filling out a vocabulary of actual terms in the field, this is getting good 😄 Dal#7192: (tldr I view NN/DL as something akin to building instincts rather than building full minds but that theory is still cooking) StellaAthena#3530: If you are good at topology I have some theory papers I can send you Louis#0144: The decision boundary papers we shared in slack? @StellaAthena Louis#0144: Which are u referring to StellaAthena#3530: Oh no I meant neural persistence StellaAthena#3530: I missed that you had referenced it Dal#7192: Good isn't the word I'd use but I'd definitely be interested in getting wiser cc_#1010: I made another GPT-2 project cc_#1010: figured I'd link it here if anyone was curious cc_#1010: https://twitter.com/tanakhbot cc_#1010: fed The Entire Hebrew Bible into GPT-2 triggerhappygandi#0001: Can you share any tips for a similar project? triggerhappygandi#0001: Is it simply fine-tuning gpt-2 to a text? dudekingbromanguyokay#2595: (waves) Do ya'll need any volunteers to do stuff? Figured I'd ask since I've already borrowed the helpful data sets ya'll posted for the pile 🙂 dudekingbromanguyokay#2595: Also speaking as an author who has multiple works inside (data set name) that are technically copyright, I'm totally cool with the project & think it's amazing...I know I've seen a few discussions on intellectual property here and appreciate the consideration. Daj#7482: Hey @dudekingbromanguyokay ! Appreciate the offer! I think atm the only project doing active work right this moment is the pile, I think @bmk and @StellaAthena are the ones to ask what needs doing dudekingbromanguyokay#2595: @Daj thanks - I'm in between full time jobs & work from home so...I have plenty of time 🙂 other than a looming deadline for a book I'm writing but that's done in a few weeks 😉 So feel free any of ya'll @bmk or @StellaAthena lemme know if I can help with something. I'm a marketing professional not a technologist but really excited to see this project & happy to contribute. StellaAthena#3530: @dudekingbromanguyokay what technical skills do you have? Can you code?
dudekingbromanguyokay#2595: Ah, probably better to say "I can't," in this context 🙂 I can edit some code that I run, but it's not like I can create stuff from scratch. dudekingbromanguyokay#2595: I do use Jupyter, Google Colab + Python, have read (some) transformer papers, etc, and know the basics of javascript, ruby, php, perl, bash. StellaAthena#3530: I have something you may be able to help with, but I gotta run right now. I’ll DM you later spirit-from-germany#1488: Eventually you'd like to check out my new science based channel that explores the question: "How can we help our kids and ourselves to live fulfilled happy lives?" 🙂 https://youtu.be/C4l0QrfHbzs spirit-from-germany#1488: https://youtu.be/6CaiLyk472I cc_#1010: @triggerhappygandi collect a bunch of text, feed it to gpt, shit the output onto twitter, its that simple cc_#1010: would probably require less work if i had gpt-3 but ce'st la vie StellaAthena#3530: We have now hit 200 stars on the Pile’s repo bmk#1476: woohoo! Aran Komatsuzaki#5714: nice cfoster0#4356: 🎉 cfoster0#4356: ~~no one's supposed to use it~~ bmk#1476: It appears none of the 200 stargazers have noticed that, though, so we're in the clear cfoster0#4356: a Schelling point's a powerful thing 🤔 bmk#1476: "the emperor's clothes" is actually propaganda invented by economists to indoctrinate children about schelling points StellaAthena#3530: TBH we should probably wipe the repo and make this the repo people should use. bmk#1476: the repo people should use is just lm_dataformat lol StellaAthena#3530: There’s too much congregation here StellaAthena#3530: I know
StellaAthena#3530: But still StellaAthena#3530: “Build paths where people walk” bmk#1476: i'll make it so that if you install it through pypi it'll expose a single function for pulling The Pile bmk#1476: and write all our documentation around that bmk#1476: and then the replication stuff will be under Here Be Dragons StellaAthena#3530: Sounds good cognomen#6297: are there any LM or other ML task leaderboards with an explicit resource constraint? cognomen#6297: as in "all models must be trained for X hours on Y hardware with Z GB of memory and perform inference within N seconds" bmk#1476: yes bmk#1476: hutter's compression thing cognomen#6297: that's the only one I could think of cfoster0#4356: 📯 Information, quick links, and an FAQ on Eleuther is now available at https://github.com/EleutherAI/info cfoster0#4356: Feel free to submit PRs with updates, corrections, and new content gwern#1782: of course, that's also why hutter's compression prize is useless, even the more recent upgraded one StellaAthena#3530: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/729741769738158194/776284354518581248/image0.png StellaAthena#3530: What’s going on with this model? StellaAthena#3530: @cfoster0 you did an awesome job. Your FAQ is a better version of the website tbh. bmk#1476: @StellaAthena something with sampling frequency, this problem has been around for ages and someone just needs to PR some EMA smoothing Aran Komatsuzaki#5714: how do you evaluate your model? on a fixed test dataset? or just moving average of the previous minibatches of training samples? cfoster0#4356: @StellaAthena Thanks! Got lots of great input from y'all
bmk#1476: @cfoster0 i think you might want to remove the "this announcement does not exist", i think it's kind of confusing StellaAthena#3530: @bmk ah right. bmk#1476: nit: typo: "repsectively" bmk#1476: nit: link "aligning artificial intelligences" actually resumes from somewhere in the middle of the video and not the beginning bmk#1476: @StellaAthena also i saw your comment on the treemap thing, how do you do it? bmk#1476: the weights are final now StellaAthena#3530: There’s a button to do it in excel bmk#1476: oh, lol StellaAthena#3530: If you make a column where the grouping is labeled it’ll color it too bmk#1476: the numbers are the ones in the table in the paper, "effective size" column bmk#1476: https://github.com/EleutherAI/The-Pile/blob/master/the_pile/pile.py#L12 the groupings are here bmk#1476: the only changes i'd make would be to put github under misc and CC under general internet bmk#1476: so: ```# Academic PubMedCentral ArXiv FreeLaw USPTO PubMed
PhilPapers ExPorter # General internet OpenWebText2 StackExchange Wikipedia CommonCrawl # Prose Bibliotik Gutenberg BookCorpus # Dialogue UbuntuIRC HackerNews EuroParl YTSubtitles Opensubtitles
# Misc DMMath EnronEmails Github ``` cfoster0#4356: Thanks, fixed. @bmk StellaAthena#3530: @bmk I’m in bed but I can do it in the morning bmk#1476: that would be great cc_#1010: out of curiosity what's the progress on the pile and gpt-neo cc_#1010: just very broad "where we at" check bmk#1476: pile is almost done cc_#1010: i would be SCORCHING money on this but unfortunately my personal websites come first cc_#1010: but hopefully those should bei n the black soon cc_#1010: so cc_#1010: 💵 StellaAthena#3530: The Pile is on track to be released by the end of the year. cc_#1010: based bmk#1476: the data itself will be done within a day or maybe two if i flub up things badly again
StellaAthena#3530: GPT-Neo probably mostly works bmk#1476: analysis will be most of the next month and a half StellaAthena#3530: We haven’t trained it on GPT-3 scales yet because $$$$ bmk#1476: well, that's technically true but not entirely accurate imo StellaAthena#3530: Also because we need to finish the data first bmk#1476: we're not going to be able to afford enough tpus even if we do exceedingly well with fundraising StellaAthena#3530: Sure bmk#1476: our only realistic path is getting google to give us more tpus and money cant buy that cc_#1010: what scales can it be trained at so far cc_#1010: gpt-2? gpt-2.5? StellaAthena#3530: $$$$ was a shortcut for “we don’t have the resources” bmk#1476: ah StellaAthena#3530: But I can see how that might be confusing cc_#1010: or rather what can it be trained at w/ the resources currently available cc_#1010: rough guesstimation StellaAthena#3530: GPT 2XL cc_#1010: is that = 1558? bmk#1476: yes cc_#1010: neat cc_#1010: lay it out for me because im an idiot - whats the reason why no amount of money will get us more tpus
cc_#1010: are those a thing only google has access to? StellaAthena#3530: We’ve also done experiments with larger scales but not full model runs bmk#1476: too expensive bmk#1476: way too expensive cc_#1010: how much too expensive bmk#1476: let me look it up, one moment cc_#1010: so realistically without some sort of insane fundraiser haul we'd be able to get somewhere between GPT-2-1558 and GPT-3, leaning closer to the former than the latter? bmk#1476: so google doesnt even give estimates unless you contact them, but we can extrapolate the cost of a smaller pod StellaAthena#3530: @cc_ We are working on talking Google into giving us the compute bmk#1476: so a v3-32 costs 176k for a year cc_#1010: whoo mama bmk#1476: we'd probably need to run a.. 512? cc_#1010: you are right i can't help with that lmao cc_#1010: my parents would never let me leech that much money off of them for something that benefits other people lmao bmk#1476: no no that's the small machine cc_#1010: yeah i know cc_#1010: the big one costs Even More bmk#1476: this is the biggest machine that google gives extimates on StellaAthena#3530: I’m disturbed and intrigued by that reply. Not sure which one more so bmk#1476: a 256 would cost well over a million
cc_#1010: which reply cc_#1010: mine or bmks StellaAthena#3530: > my parents would never let me leech that much money off of them for something that benefits other people lmao @cc_ cc_#1010: ah cc_#1010: they're just neoliberals cc_#1010: wealthy ones with lots of money cc_#1010: and properties bmk#1476: what order of magnitude is lots cc_#1010: uhhh bmk#1476: it's ok if you don't want to answer cc_#1010: probably enough to handle our TPU problems if they wanted to cc_#1010: but cc_#1010: they dont cc_#1010: like, trust me, it's not happening lmao bmk#1476: as i said, getting the money to pay for the compute is not and never was in our plan cc_#1010: they wouldn't even let me stop paying them rent so i could use the money to handle my own servers and that's just 800 a month cc_#1010: and im also their son cc_#1010: and not some strangers on the internet who really like ML cc_#1010: uh, machine learning, not marxism-leninism
bmk#1476: there is no way we're getting >$1MM through any way, and so that possibility is not up for serious consideration cc_#1010: great StellaAthena#3530: @bmk you’re probably overestimating the cost. If we had a wealthy patron we could buy DHX-2s cc_#1010: so we'd have to acquire the relevant hardware through some kind of alternative arrangement or go without StellaAthena#3530: I think we would only need three or so StellaAthena#3530: Plus a warehouse bmk#1476: @StellaAthena three? cc_#1010: i mean either way it's still more than i think we could conceivably and, importantly, sustainably raise bmk#1476: that sounds about an order of magnitude off bmk#1476: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/729741769738158194/776298985119809566/unknown.png cc_#1010: i agree that it's not even worth consideration bmk#1476: 1 V100 ~= 1 TPUv3 core, give or take a factor of 2x bmk#1476: would prolly need 16 of em cc_#1010: could you jury rig a bunch of colab notebooks together? ;P cc_#1010: (this is a joke) bmk#1476: according to anandtech a dgx2 is 400k cc_#1010: yeah i dont think we need to hyperfocus on the costs cc_#1010: unless we get a multimillionaire patron willing to burn cash on this it's not happening that way cc_#1010: we can just write it off at this point bmk#1476: so, like, anywhere from 3-6M plus colo costs
StellaAthena#3530: Anyways there’s a program where Google gives worthy poor people free TPUs. That’s what we are currently using, but with our current level of compute that would take years. StellaAthena#3530: (Actually, initializing the model would time out the pods so it’ll take forever) StellaAthena#3530: We are working on sweet talking them into thinking we are really cool and getting a special deal cc_#1010: cant help with that unfortunately i have all the social graces of a vacated snail home cc_#1010: but best of luck bmk#1476: if this works out, by the end of our project we will probably have recieved from TRFC the market-price equivalent of more than the net worths of everyone working on this combined bmk#1476: we've already gotten a few hundred k worth of tpus so far StellaAthena#3530: I wouldn’t be surprised if we were close already cc_#1010: is there anything i would be able to help with w/ the money i do have available (i.e a couple thousand) cc_#1010: pizzas? motherboards? bmk#1476: well, we do have some server costs but they're pretty low cc_#1010: ethernet cables? 😛 bmk#1476: we don't really have our finances in order so i don't have any exact numbers but StellaAthena#3530: Yes, but determining the most fruitful application might take some thinking bmk#1476: our monthly expenditures are, like, less than 1k? cc_#1010: does that come from any one source or is it just sort of assorted payments spread out amongst who can handle them? StellaAthena#3530: It’s crowd-funded, but without the crowd. bmk#1476: we have a very generous donor and some of the costs are just covered by the individuals running them cc_#1010: right bmk#1476: like, me and goolu are each paying for a hetzner, that's, what, C$70 a month? nothing too big
cc_#1010: if someone can wrangle up a list of relevant costs i can probably take some stuff off people's hands bmk#1476: our finances are a mess cc_#1010: it's money that i'm decidedly not going to use because i want for nothing cc_#1010: someone should probably handle that lmao cc_#1010: yall need a treasurer bmk#1476: though if you can help think of ideas of things we could do that would be great bmk#1476: yeah that's probably a good idea StellaAthena#3530: Hey, if you want the job I doubt anyone would complain tbh cc_#1010: also if you really want like cc_#1010: the most bang for your buck cc_#1010: someone needs to make an LLC, preferrably in delaware cc_#1010: and then everything just becomes a business expense which can be written off cc_#1010: on your taxes cc_#1010: i could probably talk to my accountant abt that bmk#1476: connor is our de facto treasurer but not all the expenditures go through him and we don't have detailed records we just trust him not to pocket anything cc_#1010: there should definitely be record keeping cc_#1010: imo there should be 100% transparent record keeping that's publically available StellaAthena#3530: Abstractly yes. Pragmatically we are about 10 people who are doing this in our free time and are more interested in the technical work than getting our finances in order. bmk#1476: agree, but we've just never gotten around to it cc_#1010: that's fair
bmk#1476: yeah, i've been way too busy writing up code bmk#1476: we barely have documentation cc_#1010: im willing to shoulder the atlasian responsibility (/j) if it's a thing people think we'd need cc_#1010: or would be helpful to have at least cc_#1010: i dont really do much with my day bmk#1476: for me priorities are: 1. get the code done 2. get the documentation done 3. miscellaneous organizational things bmk#1476: as can be seen from the state of my documentation, 3 doesn't get much love StellaAthena#3530: Do you have meaningful technical skills? StellaAthena#3530: Hours of writing Python code is more valuable to us than money tbh. cc_#1010: not meaningful for this, no cc_#1010: i can code video games cc_#1010: and websites bmk#1476: can you python cc_#1010: not particularly bmk#1476: oh, if you can video games you can python cc_#1010: no, i probably can't
StellaAthena#3530: Oh we can absolutely put you to work bmk#1476: C#? cc_#1010: i use GMS bmk#1476: what's that? cc_#1010: which is more like javascript than anything cc_#1010: gamemaker studio 2 bmk#1476: ah bmk#1476: never heard of it cc_#1010: it's good stuff StellaAthena#3530: Is it a GUI? bmk#1476: python is like javascript but minus the java and also minus the script but then you add the script back in cc_#1010: anyway that sort of belies the point in that i dont really like coding things that aren't creative cc_#1010: im closer to a designer than a developer bmk#1476: we could use a website/design person cc_#1010: you'd spend too much time teaching me how to actually get up to speed for me to be of any use bmk#1476: sid also does design but he's too busy doing tpu stuff StellaAthena#3530: We have a website that I made in a weekend and haven’t really updated much. bmk#1476: yeah we need a good website StellaAthena#3530: And there’s a list design tasks for that that nobody has gotten to StellaAthena#3530: www.eleuther.ai is the website
bmk#1476: i have a minor personal vendetta against google sites so a custom website would be great cc_#1010: do you not have a custom website to begin with cc_#1010: why are you using google websites bmk#1476: nope bmk#1476: everyone is too busy writing code bmk#1476: no time to do website stuff StellaAthena#3530: Because I was able to make a functional site in less time than it took everyone to agree on a framework to use bmk#1476: haha cc_#1010: fair enough lmao cc_#1010: oh this already looks better than anything i could shit out cc_#1010: the only things i could fix are accessibility stuff StellaAthena#3530: Here’s the secret: it’s all drag and drop StellaAthena#3530: I don’t know HTML StellaAthena#3530: the most meaningful thing I’ve done in HTML in my life is personalize my neopets profile bmk#1476: we could also use help with stuff like icon design and making diagrams that look professional and not like someone drew them in google slides cc_#1010: if it aint broke dont fix it bmk#1476: i know how to use HTML but every time i do i get traumatized cc_#1010: i'm not that kind of artist, unfortunately cc_#1010: i have the drawing skills of a diabetic elephant StellaAthena#3530: So all the images are random shit that’s CC
StellaAthena#3530: “Draw” can mean “design on a computer” bmk#1476: :smallbrain: CC :bigbrain: CC cc_#1010: i can't really make any images for you that you couldn't already find somewhere else StellaAthena#3530: Shame cc_#1010: i offer financial stuff since that's stuff i can do in my spare time that's not already occupied by other projects StellaAthena#3530: So, no offense, but what are your skills? cc_#1010: i mean if you go by my college degree, management cc_#1010: people wrangling cc_#1010: hold on i can just get you a picture of my resume lmao StellaAthena#3530: It would be nice having another people wrangler in the near future. bmk#1476: we don't really do the whole hierarchy thing here, at least not for now cc_#1010: oh god damnit there's a typo in my fucking resume cc_#1010: how long has that been there StellaAthena#3530: Good way to test if anyone really read it cc_#1010: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/729741769738158194/776303827124092948/resume_2.png cc_#1010: virtual machinse StellaAthena#3530: I know someone who put an offer to pay the reader $50 in her PhD thesis cc_#1010: also i know i listed python and c# in there but i dont actually know them, that one is a lie cc_#1010: lmao
cc_#1010: but i figure if i get hired for an entyr level python position i can learn on the job StellaAthena#3530: Skills sections on resumes are all lies cc_#1010: i did learn it at one point in my life cc_#1010: when i was like 16 cc_#1010: and it is all gone now bmk#1476: python is literally spicy pseudocode cc_#1010: but yeah that's the gamut of what i bring to the table besides "has money" and "good at managing teams" bmk#1476: i used to do java before and learning python was basically trivial cc_#1010: yes but i dont really want to cc_#1010: unless it became necessary for me bmk#1476: that's fair cc_#1010: like if someone's offering me a 20k raise to switch to a new job where i'd have to learn python then fuck it nake time bmk#1476: well, there is one people managingy thing we might need in the near future cc_#1010: snake, too bmk#1476: so we plan on doing a big multilingual dataset for pile v2 bmk#1476: and we want to solicit a bunch of native speakers bmk#1476: preferably dozens, with at least a few for each language bmk#1476: tbh, as many people as we can get to sign up bmk#1476: aside from main Pile v2 we'd also want to do stuff like make an actual language classifier that doesn't break on rare languages cc_#1010: right, im listening
bmk#1476: and managing that many people across multiple projects spanning probably months to a year or so will be very complicated bmk#1476: actually, step 1 is getting that many people interested cc_#1010: managing them to do... what? bmk#1476: so we want to have native speakers to have input on our various multilingual data projects - in practice this would mean looking at the way we're doing things and telling us if there are big issues with what we're doing, looking at data samples to tell us if they'r reasonable, etc bmk#1476: as a contrived example, imagine if we split words by spaces in our algorithm bmk#1476: ~~very contrived that totally nobody does this~~ bmk#1476: the chinese, japanese, korean speakers would inform us about the issue of those languages not having space speration of words bmk#1476: also, we're too broke to pay for professionals so they'd all have to be volunteers with an interest in ML and willing to do a bit of work in exchange for authorship on a paper cc_#1010: oh i forgot i do have one other skill cc_#1010: or resource cc_#1010: which is that i run a semi-popular twitter account that i can shill eleuther on 😛 cc_#1010: anyway bmk i see StellaAthena#3530: Non-coding jobs: 1. Manage the website, including updating the content over time and a handful of graphic design tasks 2. Organize the Discord channel with role-bots and probably other shit 3. Create a media plan, write press releases, and be a hype machine 4. Make is a real non-profit 5. Organize people, orchestrate tasks, and remind people to do shit after they don’t do it for a week. 6. Do random research as necessary. cc_#1010: i suppose once we get to that point you can slap my hand and tag me in
cc_#1010: oh now thats a list cc_#1010: now that i could handle bmk#1476: the problem is that gathering literal dozens of people with that kind of strict requirements takes a lot of time StellaAthena#3530: 1 and 6 are intermittent tasks 2, 3, and 4 are one-off tasks 5 is a continuous task bmk#1476: so we want to get started on that early cc_#1010: yeah i could do those bmk#1476: re: 3: i think @Daj might have something to say about that; i've spoken to him about the idea of creating an explicit pr plan bmk#1476: i will let him voice his position because i don't want to misrepresent his position StellaAthena#3530: @cc_ do you know people who are famous or well connected, especially in CS or CS adjacent spaces? cc_#1010: hahahahahaha cc_#1010: absolutely not cc_#1010: outside of minimaxir bmk#1476: how popular is semi popular StellaAthena#3530: Darn cc_#1010: uhhh 12.5k followers cc_#1010: and it uses gpt-2 bmk#1476: we have gwern and aran already StellaAthena#3530: “Talk people into shilling for us” is definitely a major part of 2
bmk#1476: though more can't hurt cc_#1010: which is partially why im interested in this project since openAI rejected my gpt-3 proposal and i figured i'm never getting it cc_#1010: i mean i could talk to DeepLeffen cc_#1010: we've chatted in the past StellaAthena#3530: Is that a GPT-X trained on Leffen tweets? cc_#1010: and i'm also on good terms with the original drilbot person cc_#1010: https://twitter.com/DeepLeffen cc_#1010: https://twitter.com/dril_gpt2/ StellaAthena#3530: Yup StellaAthena#3530: Called it cc_#1010: i mean it's not exactly hard to call 😛 StellaAthena#3530: If you can get them to agree to shill for us that would be awesome. cc_#1010: write me a pitch to give to them and i'll try my best bmk#1476: Let's not get ahead of ourselves cc_#1010: i think we should get ahead of ourselves more cc_#1010: oh also my relative owns domainregistry.com cc_#1010: and he probably knows people StellaAthena#3530: Okay I’m going to go to sleep (that’s a lie, I’m going to go play Pokémon in bed for an hour and pretend to sleep) cc_#1010: so i could prod him and ask him StellaAthena#3530: But let’s chat tomorrow about something concrete
cc_#1010: ping me tomorrow because i have severe unmedicated adhd and i will forget otherwise cc_#1010: guaranteed StellaAthena#3530: Definitely cc_#1010: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ei75UYOXkAEEO-u?format=png&name=900x900 cc_#1010: a gift for you before bed StellaAthena#3530: I have severe medicated ADHD that’s nevertheless debilitating when combined with the anxiety and depression I’ve been experiencing lately cc_#1010: i dont like that reaction cc_#1010: gift retracted cc_#1010: better cc_#1010: thank you cc_#1010: anyway im gonna go take a walk and then work on my video game cc_#1010: as it turns out making blocks fall off cliffs without glitching into the ground and then teleporting a billion feet away is surprisingly difficult Noa Nabeshima#0290: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/08/09/the-joel-test-12-steps-to-better-code/ bmk#1476: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/729741769738158194/776627223297261598/good_code.png andyljones#7746: https://programmingisterrible.com/post/139222674273/how-to-write-disposable-code-in-large-systems > Step 0: Don’t write code > Step 1: Copy-paste code > Step 2: Don’t copy paste code > Step 3: Write more boilerplate
> Step 4: Don’t write boilerplate > Step 5: Write a big lump of code > Step 6: Break your code into pieces > Step 7: Keep writing code FractalCycle#0001: > Step 1: write code > Step 2: lol no I think this is what's known as "best practices" in the industry StellaAthena#3530: Can confirm Noa Nabeshima#0290: Ok, but to what extent are there (culturally evolved?) actually good software practices Noa Nabeshima#0290: Seems probably real to me andyljones#7746: > Ok, but to what extent are there (culturally evolved?) actually good software practices @Noa Nabeshima mine at least was serious! there are absolutely better and worse practices, and yeah joel's list is a good starting point for organisations at least andyljones#7746: i really like tef's advice though for its dedication to 'it depends' gwern#1782: good software practice has too little correlation with fitness^Wprofits, perhaps because everyone and everything cycles over way too quickly, for good practices to culturally evolve gwern#1782: it was infinitely more important for facebook, say, to find a social network niche than for it to not use PHP. the constant factor cost of technical debt could be paid off once they were a multi-billion-dollar megatechcorp gwern#1782: as absurd as it sounds to write your own php compiler and build your own better language on top of it, well, mark is rich and you are not gwern#1782: it's just price's equation. the lower the covariance between fitness and replicated phenotype, the less selection is possible. shifting environments, poor replication of culture & programmers, far higher fitness differentials based on business model... then combine this with breathtakingly high 'mutational targets' ("this year, we are Agile!")... gwern#1782: this is why corporations and software do not evolve (https://www.gwern.net/Backstop) Noa Nabeshima#0290: Hm maybe cultural evolution is the wrong phrase. The main mechanism I'm imagining is people in the field in practice noticing what works and sticking to it while also copying whatever other people are doing. Things like Agile might spread on trendiness alone (idk if agile is good or not), but version control has (probably) been stably everywhere for a long time. Daj#7482: > it was infinitely more important for facebook, say, to find a social network niche than for it to not use PHP.
@gwern _Paul Graham is typing_ shawwn#3694: congrats on surpassing TPU Podcast in member count gwern#1782: @Daj I think pg would say 'well ok python is good enough now' gwern#1782: even if lisp was a secret weapon eons ago back in 1995, in 2020, I do not think he would say today that choice of programming language is in the even top 10 decisions a startup founder should be making shawwn#3694: design, on the other hand, will make or break your company shawwn#3694: and lisp is closely related to good design. gwern#1782: but, obviously not closely related enough or else the lisp companies would've eaten the world by now shawwn#3694: HN did. gwern#1782: is HN even 1% as popular as reddit? and what does it owe to lisp? if someone sat down and began writing about how HN influenced the world, would 'happened to be coded in lisp' make even the top 20 list of key factors, after stuff like 'pg used it as a startup recruiter' or 'pg spent 4 hours a day submitting links and moderating comments', thereby demonstrating even more strongly what I just said shawwn#3694: Yes. StellaAthena#3530: Yes what? Yes it really owes it's success to lisp? shawwn#3694: It would. But few people understand why. StellaAthena#3530: Why? (original comment was much ruder than intended. Sorry) shawwn#3694: It owes its success to Lisp because a single person is able to both program and then use the software that HN represents, at the mod team level shawwn#3694: currently in a meeting, but I'll explain more later. shawwn#3694: The early history of hacker news began roughly in 2006, when pg started prototyping it shawwn#3694: one could argue that you could imagine a version of PG who was an expert python hacker, not an expert lisp hacker, and that it would have been more or less equivalent shawwn#3694: but as someone who has spent many, many years with the codebase, I don't think so. shawwn#3694: for example, antirez (of Redis fame) once tried to build an alternative, lamer news. It generated a buzz significant enough to give it a community similar to, say, lobsters shawwn#3694: but from a technical standpoint, the features simply weren't there. I tried to do basic things that I took for granted on HN, and those didn't work. So I left
shawwn#3694: That's your bar. You can either believe me, or believe the evidence (that even the great antirez failed), or the fact that lobsters probably wouldn't survive at HN-scale shawwn#3694: I can certainly go into reasons and specific details of why those things are true, but few people believe it's true in the first place, so there's not much point. gwern#1782: ...do what? when I think of HN, "features" is about the last thing I think of, and it'd be preceded by a phrase like "lack of" shawwn#3694: that's because HN is so well-designed, the features don't even seem like features shawwn#3694: for example, even something as simple as seeing the replies inline in your /threads page shawwn#3694: Reddit doesn't have that. Lobsters doesn't have that shawwn#3694: you could write it, sure. But Lisp makes such features natural to write. shawwn#3694: And when you have very little time, those small bits of efficiency add up. shawwn#3694: Those are just the public-facing features too. Most of HN's features are internal shawwn#3694: essentially editor tools. gwern#1782: you don't need /threads because that's what comment reply notifications are, which hn doesn't have at all StellaAthena#3530: https://www.reddit.com/message/inbox StellaAthena#3530: This is reddits `/threads` shawwn#3694: and it's socially very different from HN. It encourages flamewars, for example shawwn#3694: some required reading: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2004/09/06/its-not-just-usability/ > Small changes in software can make big differences in the way that software supports, or fails to support, its social goals. https://www.gwern.net/docs/technology/2005-shirky-agroupisitsownworstenemy.pdf
MasterScrat#6910: Hello everyone. I'm working on a natural language generation project. I recently switched from gpt2-xl to megatron-11b and it lead to significant improvement for my use case. So naturally, I'm looking for any available larger model (that I can have full control over). What is the status of gpt-neo? are some pre-trained models already available? StellaAthena#3530: Howdy @MasterScrat. Welcome. StellaAthena#3530: That depends on how much compute you have available StellaAthena#3530: Oh, you’re asking about pretrained. We can’t upgrade you (yet) if you’re using an 11B model StellaAthena#3530: We’ve trained a single step of a 100B model, but not the whole model. MasterScrat#6910: How much compute would I need to train a model >11B? What would be the ballpark cost to train it eg on AWS or GCP? MasterScrat#6910: And, is it actually "just" a matter of compute at this point? or would i still need to invest a lot of engineering time in it as well? StellaAthena#3530: As far as we know it’s just a matter of compute. Obviously if we haven’t trained a 1T model we can’t promise it won’t break, but don’t have any reason to think it will (besides meta reasoning: there’s always another bug) StellaAthena#3530: I’m not a great person to ask about costs on the open market, but I think that our estimate for Google TPUs is ~2M MasterScrat#6910: $2M would be for 1T right? StellaAthena#3530: Ah no. Sorry, that’s for GPT-3 scale StellaAthena#3530: 175B StellaAthena#3530: And actually BMK’s estimate is 3-6M bmk#1476: it's worth noting that these estimates are very rough StellaAthena#3530: But this is very heuristic. This is two orders of magnitude bigger than what Google advertises selling at all bmk#1476: like, very, very rough bmk#1476: 1. efficiency bmk#1476: 2. nobody knows how much google actually charges for one of these StellaAthena#3530: If our model is 10% less efficient than GPT-3 the cost will ballon correspondingly StellaAthena#3530: And 10% on a million isn’t pocket change
StellaAthena#3530: Okay I’ll let @bmk talk because he knows better than me bmk#1476: our model is likely more than a few pct less efficient MasterScrat#6910: i see! what is the largest model you've trained so far, and how does it compare to the closest published GPT model? MasterScrat#6910: and, where exactly do the differences in efficiency come from? subtle training details? dataset quality? StellaAthena#3530: Pipelining, minor coding differences StellaAthena#3530: Whenever you replicate a paper you don’t get exactly the same efficiency bmk#1476: i would not be surprised if our code was only 1% the efficiency of OA's code StellaAthena#3530: But in most circumstances you don’t care about the gap MasterScrat#6910: i see! well, this may be hard to sell to management 😛 StellaAthena#3530: We’re talking about a scale where copying the data between directories is a non-trivial StellaAthena#3530: There’s a lot of room for things to go wrong bmk#1476: just shuffling our data was a full on miniproject in itself gwern#1782: @MasterScrat they expect to get the compute from the TFRC people. if you have to pay list price, it's probably not worth trying StellaAthena#3530: What are you using it for @MasterScrat StellaAthena#3530: Like, what kind of work do you do with it? MasterScrat#6910: Sadly i can't say too much 😦 Let's say something like writing automatic descriptions, with some creativity, from a list of facts. If i could make a point like: for $250k we can get a model much better than megatron-11b, then there may be a chance I could negotiate for management to invest in that, ideally in an open-source way. But at this point this is all wishful thinking gwern#1782: I don't think eleutherai could guarantee anything like that. this is still very experimental and hobbyist StellaAthena#3530: I mean, at some point we will have a trained GPT-3 (hopefully) StellaAthena#3530: But not for a while MasterScrat#6910: but what is the largest model trained right now? and how much would it cost to reach a point where you can say: we reached the quality of this GPT-2 model, and it cost us that much?
StellaAthena#3530: GPT-2 scale MasterScrat#6910: 1.5B model? how many TPU hours did it take and with which TPU version? MasterScrat#6910: Also I imagine prices grow even larger on GPUs? gwern#1782: (with A100s rolling out in datacenters, one hopes prices will finally drop) StellaAthena#3530: The people who know the answer to those questions are currently asleep sorry. StellaAthena#3530: But Sid should be able to help you in the morning. StellaAthena#3530: (His morning) MasterScrat#6910: Ok sure, thanks a lot already for all the info! MasterScrat#6910: What exactly is EleutherAI? a company? is it for-profit? StellaAthena#3530: It’s 12 people hanging out on discord in their free time MasterScrat#6910: > EleutherAI is a grassroots AI research group aimed at democratizing and open sourcing AI research bmk#1476: grassroots, yup gwern#1782: 'grassroots', as in we're slightly above dirt in status; 'AI research' as in 'well, not too many people have any better idea than we do', 'group' as in 'we talk to each other online', 'aimed' as in 'don't blame us if nothing gets accomplished' StellaAthena#3530: @gwern stealing that. StellaAthena#3530: I love it gwern#1782: ...'democratizing' as in 'make feasible for non-FANG programmers without 6-figure salaries', 'open sourcing' as in 'you can actually download our shit'... StellaAthena#3530: 'AI research' as in ‘what could possibly go wrong?' gwern#1782: 'remember, you can't spell "failure" without "ai"' bmk#1476: and AI stands for 愛 AI_WAIFU#2844: me
Bedebao#4842: OpenAI is too scared to unleash Skynet. EleutherAI doesn't care. cfoster0#4356: lies! We care and don't have a clue what to do 🤔 StellaAthena#3530: > OpenAI is too scared to unleash Skynet. EleutherAI doesn't care. @Bedebao this is the exact opposite of the truth tho bmk#1476: the road to paperclippification is paved with alignment attempts cfoster0#4356: > the road to paperclippification is paved with alignment attempts @bmk does that mean alignment research is -EV? cfoster0#4356: If so that makes our lives easier lol bmk#1476: it's +EV, just not + enough AI_WAIFU#2844: there's a great deal of variance bmk#1476: the road to nonpaperclippification is also paved with alignment attempts AI_WAIFU#2844: all it takes is 1 cosmic ray in the wrong place and you get an s-risk zphang#7252: EAI is an AI memes discord with some off-topic channels for discussing research Bedebao#4842: > this is the exact opposite of the truth tho @StellaAthena Oh uh, my bad then. bmk#1476: all roads to all outcomes more than a few minutes in the future are paved with all attempts with near-prior distribution \taleb intensifies\** Daj#7482: https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/11/03/1011616/ai-godfather-geoffrey-hinton-deep-learning-will-do-everything/ Sid#2121: > 1.5B model? how many TPU hours did it take and with which TPU version? @MasterScrat trained on a TPU-128 for ~ ten days give or take. It actually took a lot longer because we're always being pre-empted. Our current models are more efficient, also spirit-from-germany#1488: https://blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2020/11/02/nvidia-a100-launches-on-aws/?fbclid=IwAR0dizme8whCQlgn6Mc6-U5fSbbEIZ0UghbdCycYEP8BA0Qpzf-fL9Qhrt0
spirit-from-germany#1488: Do you think the 40gb VRAM are enough to finetune GPT-2 770M ? Or even 1,5? gwern#1782: of course. 1.5b was trained on 16GB V100s, iirc spirit-from-germany#1488: hmm... when I checked if I could finetune GPT2 on Colab Pro with P100s, it always got OOM errors chirp#4545: https://www.reddit.com/r/MachineLearning/comments/jtbr8c/d_how_do_you_find_the_motivation_to_keep_doing_ml/ gwern#1782: catgirls. mridulkabra#8732: Hi, is there any tool based on GPT-3 that writes content? Want to study a few things in depth MasterScrat#6910: I believe AI Dungeon is your best bet right now if you're not part of the GPT-3 beta: https://play.aidungeon.io/ Airatak#7842: @mridulkabra There was philosopherai but OpenAI's new pricing kind of killed it Airatak#7842: The Dev does say that he will bring it back, but it will be on a pay to use bases mridulkabra#8732: Okay, I checked there is one amazing tool called Simplify which simplifies difficult text to easier text which was the closest to content generation I felt Airatak#7842: Well that is more of summarization instead of generation mridulkabra#8732: Yes, that's true, it is very limited in scope, how did the person whose article went viral write? mridulkabra#8732: Did he use his direct access? StellaAthena#3530: That’s not remotely the same thing as content generation tho StellaAthena#3530: What is your usecase where those two things are interchangeable andyljones#7746: > Did he use his direct access? @mridulkabra yes Airatak#7842: Btw, if you guys want, I can host the GPTneo models online Airatak#7842: I see that currently you guys don't have them hosted Airatak#7842: Also, anyone know of some pretrained text gen model with a large context size? I can't find anything bigger than 2048 tokens
Ken#8338: Interesting article discussing Nick Bostrom's new working paper about future AGI and utilitarianism: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20201111-philosophy-of-utility-monsters-and-artificial-intelligence gwern#1782: @Airatak not necessarily what you think of by text perhaps but https://www.gwern.net/GPT-2-music#generating-midi-with-10k30k-context-windows gwern#1782: you could also look at the repos for all the long-range transformers like reformer to see if they've released checkpoints Airatak#7842: I was hoping for text like short stories or articles Airatak#7842: I'm trying to train a model from scratch with a large context window (8192 tokens) but it seems to eat the 16GB GPU memory I am using for breakfast bmk#1476: How many params bmk#1476: 8192 with, say, 117M should be fine on 16GB as long as your batch size is small Airatak#7842: Around 700M bmk#1476: Hmm probably go smaller then Airatak#7842: but then the network doesn't grasp the language patterns very well Airatak#7842: This is probably a stupid idea, but is it possible to change the context window on a pretrained gpt2 model and maybe finetune it a bit? CRG#8707: > This is probably a stupid idea, but is it possible to change the context window on a pretrained gpt2 model and maybe finetune it a bit? @Airatak ViT was finetuned on higher resolution images by interpolating the 2D positional embeddings to a new resolution. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/729741769738158194/777617374349885440/3a60d6dcd09307f54979ba3baafad208.png Noa Nabeshima#0290: Is GPU as a function a thing? Where whenever someone wants to sample from a LM a GPU is loaded up and run but you only pay for queries not by the hour? Noa Nabeshima#0290: I think you could hack this, but is anything designed to work this way? bmk#1476: Sounds like openai bmk#1476: Failing that, there might be gpu lambdas? Airatak#7842: That sounds interesting and could potentially scale very well, but would also be very expensive for bigger projects Airatak#7842: I ran a website on AWS Lambda and it ended up being very expensive compared to a kubernetes based solution zphang#7252: also https://huggingface.co/pricing
Airatak#7842: btw you guys think you could host the GPT Neo model on huggingface? That would be real awesome and convenient Sid#2121: sure @Airatak that sounds like a great idea eventually Sid#2121: a question: Does anyone have any idea the kind of hardware OpenAI used to train GPT3? Specifically the type of interconnects used between GPUs? kindiana#1016: maybe nvlink? the datacenter scale nvlink stuff didn't come out until recently so maybe not Sid#2121: and for inference, i'm guessing you'd need a similar speed interconnect? kindiana#1016: depending on how you partition the computation, it could be a lot lower kindiana#1016: tens of gigabits instead of hundreds Sid#2121: oh? for training? kindiana#1016: hrm, I thought they did something with ms? kindiana#1016: how did they build gpt3 without large scale training infra lol Sid#2121: > also he told me that they currently don't have large-scale training infra. @Aran Komatsuzaki wait, i'm confused. You mean they no longer have access to the same infra they used for training? Sid#2121: i also thought the same as @kindiana Aran Komatsuzaki#5714: sorry i thought you were talking about HF lol Sid#2121: ah no, OA Aran Komatsuzaki#5714: it's ms's supercluster w/ Deepspeed-like infra w/ heavy pipeline parallelism Aran Komatsuzaki#5714: so i have no idea Sid#2121: but no one has any idea what ms's supercluster actually is tho right Aran Komatsuzaki#5714: let me check Sid#2121: https://www.engineering.com/Hardware/ArticleID/20343/The-Hardware-in-Microsofts-OpenAI-Supercomputer-Is-Insane.aspx huh

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