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In that there is no choice because the moment you choose you have decided. Just be aware of the outward habit, then see what is involved in that habit - the fear, the motive, the decisions, the urgency, the saying, 'I must', 'I must not', putting the body through torture, all that is a wastage of energy, which does not solve the problem. You still go on, there is still the hankering for whisky, or whatever you drink, or the smoke, for smoking. |
So have you listened from the beginning to the end? Listening means seeing this whole thing very, very clearly. And when you see the thing absolutely, not relatively, absolutely clearly then there is a different state of energy with which you can then come back and say, 'Now, what shall I do with this particular problem? |
', and you will see, you will know how to deal with it. Got it? What shall we do to get it... Madam, I explained it. |
I have just explained it, madam. (Inaudible) That's your affair, sir, I said, listen. (Inaudible) Call it what you like, the total (laughs) tent, or anything you like! |
(Inaudible) That's not what I mean. The whole means the whole, I said that. You know the word 'whole' means also holy. |
It seems that then the love of listening is the most important thing. You see you are still... I give it up! |
Sir, you go to your museum, and you see a picture. And first you say, who painted it, if it is Rembrandt, if it is Picasso, if it is Botticelli, then you say, 'By Jove', and you look at it. And then you compare it with this, Michelangelo painted it but he was a homosexual therefore he put all those men naked and therefore and so on, so on, so on, so on. |
So you begin to compare. And what are you doing? You are not looking at the picture. |
You are thinking about Michelangelo and all his peculiarities - Leonardo and with his peculiarities. You are comparing, judging, evaluating, you are never looking. And the painter also has his peculiarities and he wants you to look at his name first too. |
So you never look. And that's what we are doing here. This man sitting on the platform, unfortunately he has to sit on a platform, I don't know why, for convenience, he sits there and describes the whole picture in detail, and you say... And you want to know about god, don't you? |
Whether god created the universe, and all this stuff, but to find out, you have to work, haven't you? Not just accept what the Hindus, the ancient Hindus, or the Hebrews, or the Arabs, or the Christian mythology said, you want to find out. And to find out you have to have a free mind and a free heart. |
So, sir, where are we now? What time is it, sir? When did I begin? |
Now where are we? In the future, tomorrow, am I going to make a decision about anything? Apart from clothes, house, cars, you know between this brush and that brush, and this toothpaste, (laughs) apart from that am I going to decide, am I going to take a decision? |
Am I going to, when I have seen what is involved in it in this tent, am I now going outside again saying, 'By Jove, I must...' - you follow? Are you going to do it? Why do you behave so strongly, I don't see why you should separate toothpaste... you're creating a separation. |
Sir, that's what we do sir. I am not creating it, I have finished, in my life I have never decided. Even about toothpaste? |
Toothpaste, yes. (Laughter) About any other thing I have never decided. That's the beauty of it. |
You don't aim for that. Like, I have never controlled. That's a different matter. |
So in listening here this morning, you might say, well, I have really understood it, perhaps verbally, intellectually, I see the whole logic, and the reason and the practicality of it. But when you go outside, are you going to fall into the trap of the old tradition? If you do, then you haven't listened at all. |
So there is an action in which decision is not involved at all. See the beauty of it, sir. And one's life has been based on choice and decision, and therefore continuous battle. |
I think that is enough, isn't it? I think we have to lay ground rules before we begin to converse together. I think the word 'discussion' is rather misplaced. |
Discussion means explanation or examination through argument, opinion against opinion, judgement against judgement, one's characteristic conclusions against another. I think that word 'discussion' we shouldn't use, if I may suggest. But rather use the word 'dialogue' which means converse together, talk over things together. |
So what shall we talk over together today? I mean by talking over really as two friends concerned with a very serious problem. As two friends, companions, with affection, with consideration, with attention, really talk over what they feel, what they think, what their problems are, how to resolve them. |
If we could do that during these seven days I think it would be worth while. So we need in order to talk over things together a certain quality of affection, not tolerance, because that's an ugly word, because then you put up with each other - I tolerate you and you tolerate me. Whereas if we could seriously, with consideration, with a great deal of affection, and naturally attention - talk things over then perhaps we could come to some kind of resolution of our problems. |
May we do that? So, what shall we talk over this morning - one problem, you know, one thing, let's go to the very end of it, each day - you understand? - then it will be worthwhile. |
Sir, there was just now a difference between the older and the younger, and there was then sort of... there is a difference in time between some people who are... (inaudible). There is also a distinction between long hair and short hair. Now, there is of course, this distinction exists within our minds, but when you stand in front of people, perhaps this distinction doesn't necessarily enter into our relationship; they are only sort of boxes that we put people in, in our mind. |
They are little sort of partitions between... (inaudible) ...sort of dictionary existence but not as an actual existence when we face these situations with another person. But there are also within our minds our main distinctions, not only between long hair, short hair, black, white and so on and so on, but they are always only distinctions... (inaudible) ...not the distinction that you then... So what is the question, sir? |
The question is how shall we go beyond this division... Obviously many so-called young short hair, long hair, whatever it is, asked if they could have a discussion, a dialogue together in the tent, here, and so I thought we should have one meeting of that kind. It isn't that there is a time-lag between the young and the old, but just the feeling that young people have their own peculiar problems and they want to discuss - that's all. I did not want to say anything against that, I only wanted to make this question about the compartments that we put into our minds... |
I understand, sir. Right. So what shall we talk over together this morning? |
Is it possible to transform the human mind? I'm wondering what it is that prevents a person from being aware of his own inward space. He says he is going to watch himself and he's not going to escape, and all the time the person is in fear, one gets depressed, for example, and one wants to run away, smoke a cigarette or whatever it is, and you say, 'I won't run away; I'm going to watch myself'. |
And yet one still doesn't watch oneself, one doesn't see... Now we can take that? One question, which is, he how is it possible for me to watch myself, not force myself to watch myself, not deliberately avoid escapes, but just watch myself. Can we discuss that? |
Do you really want to go into it? Right. Why does one... What is the necessity of watching oneself? |
Why do you think one should watch oneself? Go on, sir. To learn about oneself? |
To learn about oneself. I watch myself in order to learn what is actually going on - factually, not theoretically, not in abstraction - what is going on in myself. I want to learn. |
Now what does that word mean, to learn? Because I think we ought to be clear when we use words that have different meanings. What do we mean by that word 'to learn'. |
I want to learn about myself. First of all, myself is a living thing, isn't it - right? - or you don't think it's a living thing. |
The word 'myself'? No, not the word but the fact - myself, the 'me'. I want to learn about myself. |
Right? We are examining the two words 'learn' and 'myself' - not the word but the content of that word. Myself is a living thing, isn't it - I'm adding, taking it away, there is - it is a living, not a dead block of material or wood, because it is always moving. |
Right? Are we clear on that? Why do we want to be concerned with ourselves at all? |
Why do we want to be so concerned about ourselves. Oh my... I want to watch myself and learn about myself because, OK, let's say I'm unhappy, and I'm running away and always... |
Wait, sir, we're coming to that. ...it has no meaning and I want to be able to learn about myself so that I'm not... (inaudible) And the lady asks, why are you so concerned about yourself. Oh, what I said didn't answer that? |
No, she asks, why is one so concerned about oneself. Because we are unhappy. Because we are comparing ourselves with others. |
Is it a habit? Is it a necessity? To be not concerned, to learn is different from being concerned, surely. |
I am concerned about my property, to hold it. I'm concerned about my dog. I'm concerned about my garden. |
But here we are trying to learn, which is entirely different from being self-centred, in a self-centred way be concerned. So that's clear. Now, I want to learn about myself. |
What do I mean by that word 'to learn'? Is there a difference between knowing myself and learning about myself? You understand? |
I'm sorry to be - this is not splitting hair - I just... I want to learn, I want to find out the meaning of words - you understand, sir? - otherwise we'll talk two different things. |
So when I say I want to know myself, and when I want to learn about myself, is there a difference between these two words? To me there is - knowing... (Inaudible) Just a minute, sir, this lady is asking. To me there is. |
Knowing would be something dead, final, and learning is a constant movement, a constant following of my... The lady says, knowing myself is a dead statement, whereas learning about myself is a constant movement. That is, I know you because I met you yesterday, or know you because I've seen you for several years. |
I have an image about you and I can add to that image, then I say, 'I know you'. But in the meantime you might have changed, but I retain the picture of you which I have had for the last five years. So when I say, 'I know you', I am judging you from my dead conclusion about you. |
So, we can leave that word 'know' aside. So what does it mean then to learn? To be aware of what you are thinking and feeling every moment. |
To be aware of what you are thinking and feeling every moment. Learn. I guess it's to collect information about yourself... (inaudible) Just say a couple of words - I'll try to... Louder too. |
I guess to learn means collect information... Ah. Learning means collecting information. You see - let me go on, may I go on a little bit and then you can. |
I want to learn about myself. Myself is a living thing, though myself is the result of various experiences, memories, conclusions and so on, through those conclusions, memories, experiences, one adds all the time, it isn't a dead thing. So it's a living thing. |
I want to learn about myself - 'learn' means, doesn't it, learn about myself who is living, all the time changing, adjusting, conforming, denying, pushing, aggressive - I want to learn about that. Now, to learn I must have curiosity, mustn't I? Right? |
Because I know nothing about myself. I'm going to learn about it. But if I come to it with a prejudice - prejudice being previous judgement, previous opinion - I can't learn about it. |
Right? So to learn about myself I must come to it without any prejudice - right? - without any conclusion, without any judgement, otherwise I can't learn. |
I want to learn about... I want to learn Italian or Russian. I must come to it afresh, because I know nothing about it. |
So if I want to learn about myself I mustn't come to it with a conclusion. Right, sir? Now this is going to be the difficulty. |
Because when I look at myself I say, 'How ugly', 'How beautiful', 'This is right', 'This is wrong' - those are all conclusions which have arrived previously, therefore I am not learning. Right? Is that... |
Approach that without pre-set limitations. That's right, sir. Now can I observe myself without prejudice? |
- for or against. If I can't there is no learning. Right? |
Now, please begin - we are talking over together. You want to learn about yourself and I want to learn about myself. First of all I want to learn about myself because there is a division between you and me, not only biological differences but psychological differences, which bring about a division between you and me, and therefore there is a battle between you and me, we and they and so on, so on. |
So I want to learn about myself to see why there is this division. Right? To learn. |
Now, to learn implies, doesn't it, that it is a constant movement and therefore it is not an accumulation of knowledge about myself. Please see the difference. Right? |
(Inaudible) That's what we are doing now. (Inaudible) Wait, I'm coming to that, madame - go slowly. I want to learn about myself. |
First I see that myself is a living thing. And if I come to it with any prejudice, I can't learn. I have a question about that, sir. |
The formulation to learn about myself is not the way I feel it. I feel I need to be myself. If there's learning, then there's a separation and that's what's painful, the separation. |
I'm coming - sir, wait a minute, sir. You're all too quick for me. (Laughter) I want to go into it step by step, sir, and then see for myself why there is a division between the observer, who is trying to learn about the observed. |
Now, is there a division between the observer and the observed? We're going to find out, sir - go slowly. We must be clear on this because then we can proceed quickly. |
Learning implies that any form of accumulation as knowledge will prevent further learning, it will be only an addition to what I already know. So I am looking at myself with the previous conclusions which I have had about myself. Right? |
Is that learning, if I... Look, I want to learn about myself, and to learn about myself I must look at myself without any conclusion, mustn't I. No? When we say I am a living self, we have there an assumption. |
No. When I say I am a living entity, is that an assumption or is it a fact? But as we understand ourselves, when we say I am a living self, then we mean we are changing constantly. |
Yes. That means living. Living. |
And so we are discovering ourselves... We are discovering ourselves, we are observing ourselves, we are learning about ourselves. There is no discovering of ourselves as a factual if we come to it with a prejudice. What is the difference between a fact and a conclusion? |
I can't hear, sir. Please look at the yellow question, the yellow piece of paper on which he has written his question. He has written a question on a piece of paper - I won't. |
Sorry. This is a friendly discussion, a dialogue, communication, talking things over - how can you give me a piece of paper, when we are two friends sitting here. (Inaudible) He has no microphone therefore he cannot talk from so far, he says. |
I don't know what to do. Sir, how do you know when you're seeing a fact and how can you distinguish that from when you come to a conclusion? I don't see the difference between a fact and a conclusion - seeing a fact about yourself and coming to a conclusion. |
The gentleman says, I don't see the difference between a fact and a conclusion. Good lord! Wait a minute, I'll tell you. |
A fact and a conclusion. A fact is that I have a toothache. Right? |
The conclusion is I must go to the doctor, dentist. One is a fact, the other is a I must go to the dentist to have... see something about it. Now, a conclusion about myself prevents me from looking at the fact. |
That is, if I have a previous conclusion, which is a prejudice, I cannot see the fact. That's all we are saying. Can you give an example of that, a concrete example? |
I don't like examples, but he wanted to know the difference between a conclusion and a fact. So I can understand what you are saying better, that is, that any prejudice about myself will prevent my seeing myself. That's all. |
And am I looking at myself with various conclusions? Then I want to find out who is the entity who is looking - you understand? - learning. |
Who is that entity? Are you suggesting that this is a lifelong process... (inaudible) Are you saying, the questioner asks, that throughout life one mustn't have any conclusion. You will find out. |
Oh lord. Please, you are all... you are not following step by step, you're going... thinking, that's the difficulty when we're talking with so many people. Now let me begin again. |
I want to learn about myself. I cannot learn about myself if there is any form of conclusion. And I see I have got a great many conclusions about myself - good, bad, that I am great, ignoble, this or that. |
Now, who is the entity that is gathering all these conclusions. Right? You're following? |
And so these conclusions divide from the fact. Right, sir? Sir, when I say I'm bad, is that a fact or a conclusion? |
How do I know when I am angry - is that a fact or a conclusion? (Inaudible) How do I know that anger is a fact and the opinion about anger is a conclusion. Right? |
Don't you know? The opinion, the judgement about anger is a conclusion. And the fact I'm angry is a fact. |
For the love of god. (Inaudible) I understand that, sir. There are two things involved, isn't the observer and the thing he observes. |
Right? The observer says, 'I must learn about myself'. Right? |
And so there is a division between the observer and the observed. Right - that's a fact. The observer says, 'I must learn about what I observe'. |
That is, the observer says, 'I must accumulate knowledge about myself'. Right? Please think, look at it. |
There is myself and the observer. Right? The observer says, 'I must learn about this thing which is myself'. |
Now is there a division between the observer and the observed? To my mind there is. To her mind there is. |
Why, why do you think that there is a division? Is the observer the entity that concludes, that says, 'I must learn about myself'? Right? |
The observer is the past, isn't it? Right, sir? The observer is saying, 'I know a great deal and I must learn more about myself'. |
The observer doesn't say, 'I know nothing'. Right? The observer says, 'Yes, I know about myself a little, because I've been angry, I've been prejudiced, I've been hurt, I've got a great many images', and with those images, hurts, with those judgements he looks at the thing he calls 'myself'. |
No? So I say to myself, who is this observer who is saying, 'I must learn', 'I must do this', - you follow? - who is this observer? |
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