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SEQ42-Q: Uh how old...how old was your brother's name?
[]
RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
1,264,119,539
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spans_manual
accept
1,678,550,586
SEQ43-A: My brother's name was Shlomo.
[]
RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
751,981,495
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spans_manual
accept
1,678,550,587
SEQ44-Q: How old was Shlomo when he was killed?
[]
RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
1,820,584,016
-1,527,198,237
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spans_manual
accept
1,678,550,588
SEQ45-A: Uh three years younger than I, so in 1942 I guess he was about eight.
[]
RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
1,063,854,901
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spans_manual
accept
1,678,550,589
SEQ46-Q: Did your family ever find out any of the facts or any of the rumors or or any information involving him being turned over? Did he go to a concentration camp? Did you ever find out what actually happened?
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RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
1,622,285,388
1,485,444,266
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spans_manual
accept
1,678,550,593
SEQ47-A: Oh no. None of the people in our hometown went to a concentration camp. In uh our part of Poland uh there were no concentration camps. There was no industry. There was no need for labor and uh what they basically did is they gathered the Jews and shot them. They eliminated everybody by the bullet and sometimes they'll...some horror stories were they left bodies on top of live people and they just suffocated. Uh they also...a few people that I know that had managed to crawl out from under these dead bodies at night and get away.
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RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
-184,590,971
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spans_manual
accept
1,678,550,604
SEQ48-Q: So the the Nazis would do a round-up?
[]
RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
1,440,484,572
-509,826,524
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spans_manual
accept
1,678,550,607
SEQ49-A: Do a round-up and uh shoot the people.
[]
RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
-1,076,281,118
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spans_manual
accept
1,678,550,608
SEQ50-Q: Did your family find out what happened to the family who who sheltered your brother?
[]
RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
1,247,942,872
482,709,202
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spans_manual
accept
1,678,550,609
SEQ51-A: Uh my mother went back after the war but uh (sigh) it's difficult to get the story straight. My brother's governess did go into town immediately uh to find out what happened to him and the only thing she would tell my mother when she came back is that she was sure he was shot. When we escaped from the ghetto and uh on the way, we stopped at at her house and uh she hid us...I don't remember for how long, whether it was hours or overnight and she went into town to find out what happened to him and uh she told it was not safe for her to keep us because everybody had...knew the connection and she had just come from town inquiring about him.
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RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
551,423,198
380,810,362
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spans_manual
accept
1,678,550,630
SEQ52-Q: I know that you were a small child at that time. You must have some impressions of what it was like. Uh how do you think that your mother was able to hear this and still go on in her own fight for survival for herself and for you and for the family? How...how did...
[]
RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
1,275,008,751
1,126,390,051
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spans_manual
accept
1,678,550,635
SEQ53-A: Uh I know from...from my own feelings, the the desire to live and to protect someone is great and I think at that point it was a matter of protecting me and getting me through it that kept her going.
[]
RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
-310,733,833
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1,678,550,638
SEQ54-Q: Did it sharpen the will to live, knowing that that death could be so imminent?
[]
RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
-531,166,412
-822,045,979
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spans_manual
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1,678,550,640
SEQ55-A: I think the will to live is something that does not need to be sharpened. I think it's there all the time and uh I think what happens is is they...the closer one feels that upon one's self, the the stronger the fight is. I've watched friends that had cancer and passed away and their will to live was so strong that uh one does not believe that death is around the comer.
[]
RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
1,140,588,047
-844,916,666
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1,678,550,646
SEQ56-Q: How did it affect you and your own struggle as a little girl at that time?
[]
RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
-163,596,767
1,159,407,720
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spans_manual
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1,678,550,647
SEQ57-A: I don't even know how to answer that. How it affected me? You just do the next thing.
[]
RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
497,163,345
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1,678,550,650
SEQ58-Q: So do you think that...of course, looking back because it would be hard to recall exactly what happened, but do you think that you you had to distance yourself or tuck it away in a part of your mind until you could deal with it and and just take the next step?
[]
RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
-661,405,327
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1,678,550,658
SEQ59-A: I don't even think one thinks. I think or at least I felt that uh when danger is there you try to to stay...stay alive, stay out of it. I know one particular circumstance where I lost my mother, got separated in the forest. Didn't know where I was, nobody was there. All I could hear was the Germans calling and shooting, and at that point...
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RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
323,125,751
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spans_manual
accept
1,678,550,669
SEQ60-Q: Calling and shooting?
[]
RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
513,060,364
511,041,941
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spans_manual
accept
1,678,550,669
SEQ61-A: Calling. Uh they knew people were around there. We were in the partisans at that time already and they were calling out give yourself up and you will survive, and, of course, spraying bullets over the the area, and I remember going out to the clearing. I forget...1t's better to get shot than be lost in the forest, and going out to the area and watching the bullets hit the dirt in front of me. It sort of makes a little puff when it hits the dirt. Then I heard my mother calling me. It didn't take me (laughter) a split second to turn away and run, and that I remember very clearly.
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RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
-1,892,520,967
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spans_manual
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1,678,550,687
SEQ62-Q: When you thought about that decision, uh being lost and alone in the forest or giving yourself up to be shot...
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RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
-1,272,150,605
1,332,820,424
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spans_manual
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1,678,550,692
SEQ63-A: No, not giving myself up. Sooner be shot than give myself up.
[]
RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
-1,737,570,796
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spans_manual
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1,678,550,694
SEQ64-Q: So you were going to willingly walk into...
[]
RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
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spans_manual
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1,678,550,695
SEQ65-A: Into a bullet...yes.
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spans_manual
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1,678,550,696
SEQ66-Q: And...and why? Why...
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RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
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spans_manual
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1,678,550,697
SEQ67-A: Uh you have to understand that at that point we were very much aware of what Germans did to Jews and even though at that point there were no Jews alive that we knew of in any of the surrounding towns, knowing that I'm Jewish and knowing what awaited me, don't you think it's easier to take a bullet at random than to have somebody point a gun between your eyes?
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RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
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1,678,550,706
SEQ68-Q: Your family...you had a father and mother and a brother before the occupation and uh...
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1,678,550,709
SEQ69-A: There were uncles and aunts and grandparents...
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1,678,550,710
SEQ70-Q: An extended family...
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1,678,550,711
SEQ71-A: Sure.
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RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
338,750,945
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1,678,550,712
SEQ72-Q: Let me go back chronologically a little bit in time and talk about how there became an awareness in your community and in your family that the occupation was coming. Not everybody believed it, is that correct?
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SEQ73-A: Uh you mean the German occupation? Well, once uh the Germans started to fight the Poles, once they declared war on Poland, we knew that the Germans would be coming. Uh you must understand that we were already occupied by the Russian forces. Poland was divided and it wasn't a matter of, you know, will they come. It was a question of when they will come, how quickly they will come.
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1,678,550,734
SEQ74-Q: Did your community...the Jews in your community...you talked about toward the end knowing at that point what they did to Jews, but in the beginning you didn't really know?
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RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
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spans_manual
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1,678,550,757
SEQ75-A: Stories filtered down. Uh stories filtered down about the fact that uh the Jews in Germany were being taken out of their homes. Uh Jews from Poland had run away uh because the Germans were coming in and occupying. Uh some of them who came returned back because the conditions under the Russians were so bad too. Uh my family especially since we were called bourgeois (ph), rich Jews or rich people period, uh we were packed and waiting to be taken to Siberia. That's what they did with with the rich people, uh resettling them. Probably would have been a blessing in disguise.
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RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
809,311,551
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1,678,550,779
SEQ76-Q: So you were a community knowing that your fate lay either in the hands of the Germans or the Russians, and at that point, did...was there an awareness of what would be better or what would be worse, what your...?
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RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
459,839,360
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spans_manual
accept
1,678,550,791
SEQ77-A: There was an awareness of oppression under the Germans, but I don't think anybody uh thought of being just shot to death, being eliminated or wiped off the face of the earth. I don't think...as a child, of course, I didn't think about it, but I don't think the general community was prepared for the type of holocaust that that happened and remember something else...all that did not start until a little later. The concentration camps... mean we had no knowledge of concentration camps at that point.
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RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
939,523,295
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spans_manual
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1,678,550,801
SEQ78-Q: But there was a ghettoization (ph) process?
[]
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spans_manual
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1,678,550,803
SEQ79-A: Ghettoization process was not immediately. That was oh several months later. Uh the Germans came in in I think July and I know it was summer. And the ghetto was not organizing...
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spans_manual
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1,678,550,808
SEQ80-Q: What year do you think that was?
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spans_manual
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1,678,550,809
SEQ81-A: No. That was 1941, and the ghetto did not get established until the wintertime, so there were several months, maybe not...six months maybe, five months.
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spans_manual
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1,678,550,813
SEQ82-Q: In the time between the time the Germans came in and occupied and the actual ghettoization, what was the transformation that took place in your community?
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spans_manual
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SEQ83-A: Well, everybody became aware of the fact that the Jews were not treated well. Uh there were incidents of beatings. Uh the next thing was the edict to wear the the yellow star. No Jew was to uh venture out without the yellow star. If you were caught, they would get beaten. I don't recall but I think there were even a few instances where people were shot, Jewish people were shot. One of the things that stands out in my mind is uh Russian prisoners of war that were driven through the town and they were in just terrible condition, uh without shoes, without proper clothing, hungry, looking dilapidated and drawn and went begging, of course, for food and water and if somebody attempted to give them...or couldn't hand it to them, throw toward them, uh anything, any food and if they caught it or even if they didn't, the Germans beat them and even shot several people if they lunged toward the crowd to receive some food, they shot them, and that was I think the first awareness of the brutality of those people.
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RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
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spans_manual
accept
1,678,550,848
SEQ84-Q: Was there a systematic attempt to set apart and segregate and identify the Jews?
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spans_manual
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SEQ85-A: Uh yes. If a Jew had to wear the yellow star, he was set aside...he was set apart from the community. He was pointed to. To me it means being pointed to someone, there is a Jew. Uh probably there must have been an accounting. Uh I recall quite early where some of the...of our possessions were taken, uh valuables. The Germans uh had...I guess there was some sort of an organization that was uh formed from the Jews or appointed as a leader of the Jews and the the intermediary between the German command and the Jewish community where the Jewish community was taxed because I remember having to give up some valuables to help with the war effort.
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RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
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spans_manual
accept
1,678,550,879
SEQ86-Q: So the Jewish community was organized as a community and in that way was uh there was a liaison to the Germans. Is that how it worked?
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RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
656,865,172
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spans_manual
accept
1,678,550,886
SEQ87-A: No. The Jewish community was always organized. The Jewish community has always had its own organization where if help was needed uh even to the point of sort of like a banking system, gmiluth chesed, where if someone uh found themself in dire need and needed money to to tide him over, he could go to the Jewish community and get some of it. Uh that establishment had existed and uh I don't recall whether the same person was head of the Jewish community when the Germans came in or whether somebody else was appointed, but there was a liaison.
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RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
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spans_manual
accept
1,678,550,903
SEQ88-Q: Do you remember when the edict went out that all Jews had to wear stars?
[]
RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
680,172,191
-787,184,877
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spans_manual
accept
1,678,550,905
SEQ89-A: I don't remember exactly when but within a short period afterwards, maybe within a month or six weeks.
[]
RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
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spans_manual
accept
1,678,550,906
SEQ90-Q: Do you remember what it was like wearing the star?
[]
RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
-557,082,402
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spans_manual
accept
1,678,550,907
SEQ91-A: Very much, because that was my first feeling of uh being singled out and pointed to. All of a sudden I was less, you know...living in a family that was quite comfortably uh situated financially and uh feeling...being the upper crust to becoming the the lower crust. All of a sudden wearing the Jewish star made me less of a...of an important person than I was before.
[]
RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
655,214,178
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spans_manual
accept
1,678,550,910
SEQ92-Q: Did your fellow villagers react in that manner to you?
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RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
952,749,272
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spans_manual
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1,678,550,911
SEQ93-A: Uh yes. Remember it it wasn't really that small a village. There were probably about nine thousand, ten thousand inhabitants total, so if there were one-third of them Jewish, two thirds were not and in a community like that, of course, there are all kinds. I remember very much being spit at. I remember having to get off the sidewalk when I walked on the sidewalk and a non-Jew was approaching. Part of the the prescribed new behavior was that one had to accommodate the non-Jewish person.
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818,374,635
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spans_manual
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1,678,550,924
SEQ94-Q: So before this process, you didn't feel anti-Semitism?
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spans_manual
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1,678,550,925
SEQ95-A: Not as such because being within the family and the school, uh you know, if I ventured out into the non-Jewish community, 1t was normally my parents' acquaintances. Uh with my parents having businesses and especially my mother had probably the largest yard goods store in the area, there were always non-Jewish people coming and going and the store was uh in front of the house. It was sort of connected.
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spans_manual
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1,678,550,941
SEQ96-Q: And now things were very different, now that you were set apart and identified as a Jew?
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spans_manual
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1,678,550,943
SEQ97-A: Uh it started actually when the Russians came in, because all of a sudden we were identified as bourgeois. The store was closed. Our circumstances were quite different, so it was sort of a degrading of circumstances starting with the Russian occupation, and that proceeded into the German occupation, the conditions constantly getting worse.
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spans_manual
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1,678,550,950
SEQ98-Q: Let me ask about some of the religious and cultural observances that were common in your town and how you kept them under the occupation. Now your father was a Zionist, correct?
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SEQ99-A: Yes.
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1,678,550,955
SEQ100-Q: And how did he practice or promote that Zionism?
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spans_manual
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SEQ101-A: I know that I was taught Hebrew at an early age. I know I spoke fluent Hebrew and remembered enough of it that after liberation, uh I met up with Isra...actually when we came across the border into Italy, we met the Hebrew brigade and uh I had no difficulty communicating.
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SEQ102-Q: Were any other ways in which your father observed Zionist teachings and...?
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1,678,550,972
SEQ103-A: Well, I think probably he always contributed to the Jewish community and uh to Israel. I remember the the little box, tzedoka, the discussions about Israel in the house. Uh some cousins had uh gone to what was called a kibbutz, preparing to go to Israel, uh kind of getting training, mostly agricultural training and living in communities. Uh I remember the hallutz (ph) movement, patriotic songs, uh learning about some of the the heroes.
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SEQ104-Q: And there were also Jewish Socialists.
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SEQ105-A: I'm sure there were. I know that I had a cousin who had uh gone to Russia uh in the revolutionary period. We never heard from him. All I did was see pictures of him. I never actually knew him, but that was my uh father's sister's son.
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spans_manual
accept
1,678,551,018
SEQ106-Q: Was it hard to maintain Jewish observances after the Germans came and how did you do that specifically?
[]
RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
48,261,075
1,729,244,182
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spans_manual
accept
1,678,551,020
SEQ107-A: Uh much of it...the synagogues ceased to exist as they did before. Uh much of it was in the house. I remember a seder. I also remember wall to wall beds and that the table was Set up and everybody sat on the beds, because that was in the ghetto, probably the the last seder in ghetto. And uh I remember that it was conducted.
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RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
638,217,468
95,769,834
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spans_manual
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1,678,551,028
SEQ108-Q: What do you remember about that seder?
[]
RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
-655,945,111
1,235,770,271
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spans_manual
accept
1,678,551,029
SEQ109-A: Probably for the first time in my life, I observed the baking of the matzoh and it was done at night in hiding. You know, couldn't remember before now that...you kind of jogged my memory to it. I remember the baking of the matzoh at one of the houses where they uh...the baking was set up and I remember everything being blacked out.
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RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
1,225,822,169
-708,836,093
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spans_manual
accept
1,678,551,040
SEQ110-Q: Now you were in hiding at this time?
[]
RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
-2,005,620,553
451,544,474
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spans_manual
accept
1,678,551,041
SEQ111-A: No. That was in the ghetto.
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SEQ112-Q: OK.
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SEQ113-A: I'm talking about during the ghetto.
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SEQ114-Q: You had to hide the fact that you were observing passover?
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SEQ115-A: The fact...yes, that matzoh was being baked for passover.
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SEQ116-Q: So it had been...the the observance of Jewish holidays had been outlawed at that point?
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SEQ117-A: I guess. I don't know why else it had to be done at night and in hiding.
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SEQ118-Q: And shabbot?
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SEQ119-A: Shabbot was a a normal observance. Nobody worked on shabbot. If any Jew worked on shabbot, he was looked down upon and pointed to by the rest of the community.
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SEQ120-Q: Were you allowed to observe shabbot or was that also something that had to be done in hiding?
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SEQ121-A: I really don't know. I am sure that the Germans took all the people to work. Uh a certain segment of the population from the ghetto was taken to work either cleaning or doing whatever the Germans needed done...laundry or uh some of them were shoemakers or uh tailors. Those fared a little better because they were needed.
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SEQ122-Q: Going back to that passover seder for a minute, uh do you remember what it meant to you as a child observing how life had changed from one passover to the other? How it...what did it mean to you that that Jews were gathered, not enough to eat, in a crowded situation and and trying to maintain that that observance?
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spans_manual
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1,678,551,081
SEQ123-A: I'm not quite sure, I'll tell you the truth. I just...you know, it's a memory of what the seder was like, a memory of the fact that uh you were not with just family. Actually not with family, only the people that lived in the house. Some were family, some not. Uh it was more what I remember 1s the fact that 1t was different.
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RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
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spans_manual
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1,678,551,087
SEQ124-Q: Would you...do you think that it had special meaning then or only when you look back on it?
[]
RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
2,126,290,187
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spans_manual
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1,678,551,089
SEQ125-A: I think at this point only when I look back at it. It was...it was so long ago I don't really remember what my feelings were. Just the fact that they were strange. It wasn't the way it used to be.
[]
RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
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spans_manual
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1,678,551,092
SEQ126-Q: What else did you remember how long a period of time, from the beginning of the ghettoization to to that time?
[]
RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
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spans_manual
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1,678,551,095
SEQ127-A: Uh the ghetto started in the wintertime and it was summer. I know it was after Shavuot and it was around May that the ghetto was liquidated, so I would say probably six months.
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RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
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spans_manual
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1,678,551,102
SEQ128-Q: OK. So this was a process that took six months. What happened 1n that period of time? How was twenty-five thousand people or three thousand people...
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RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
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spans_manual
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1,678,551,104
SEQ129-A: Twenty-five hundred.
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RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
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spans_manual
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1,678,551,105
SEQ130-Q: Twenty-five hundred...excuse me...liquidated?
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RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
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spans_manual
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1,678,551,106
SEQ131-A: Well, you...we had certain small groups that were shot. Uh I remember stories that uh people were made to dig their own graves. Uh in front of the cemetery, there was a big pit...I guess a sand pit. I just remember there was a pit and from what I heard that is where the majority of the people were shot. Uh I know...I remember hearing that some of the people...uh Jews had to to throw dirt or sand or whatever over the bodies. Uh those people had been at the edge of that pit and had come back. Uh there were small groups that were killed and then there were what they called uh reducing the numbers, I guess.
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1,678,551,124
SEQ132-Q: What did that...what did that mean?
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981,211,176
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spans_manual
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1,678,551,125
SEQ133-A: They had taken away the the the uh the less able and uh the smallest and uh shot them. It sort of was a a process that they went through by eliminating people and making the ghetto smaller, easier to control.
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RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
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49,655,317
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spans_manual
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1,678,551,129
SEQ134-Q: How were Jews identified in the various phases to be executed?
[]
RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
-1,179,255,851
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spans_manual
accept
1,678,551,131
SEQ135-A: I think it was who was available, who they could get hold of and uh normally the strongest ones were the ones that survived because they could use them. The Germans uh needed some people to do their chores and kept up...kept out the the most able. Uh every time that the people in the ghetto became aware that uh there was going to be some uh some cleaning out, that they were going to to take some of the people away, whoever could hid and if one was in hiding, if they didn't find them, managed to survive. Actually we survived because we were in hiding...hiding uh at the time when the final phase of the ghetto was liquidated.
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RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
-426,502,363
1,680,341,959
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spans_manual
accept
1,678,551,143
SEQ136-Q: When...approaching the final phase, what was the the mentality? Was there an awareness that eventually your number would be up, that eventually in not too long a period of time that that it would be your turn to be eliminated and and was there fear? Was there uh...was there an awareness that you had to get out? What was the mentality like at the time?
[]
RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
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spans_manual
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1,678,551,146
SEQ137-A: Well, of course there was awareness and there was no place to go. Uh a few people did manage to get out and uh the reprisals were very very high and that probably kept other people from from leaving if they could get out, because the first ones that would uh be used in the reprisal would be the family. I guess it's very difficult for a person to to save his life knowing that his family is going to to pay for it.
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RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
416,522,595
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spans_manual
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1,678,551,152
SEQ138-Q: Were you scared? You were a little girl at the time. How much of this were you...did you know and and and how did you deal with it? Were you frightened?
[]
RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
1,965,614,092
273,421,523
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spans_manual
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1,678,551,153
SEQ139-A: Of course. Of course. Uh it's fear but it's almost an accepted fear at that point. You do things because you have to do them. I remember incidents where...I'd be jumping the gun. We escaped from one ghetto and we were in another ghetto and we knew that there was going to be a reduction again and a cousin had a studio and the Germans had told him that that night he was to spend at his studio and he took me along with him and I wasn't allowed to walk with him. I had to follow at a distance, and he hid me and uh we went up to the attic of the house and watched what was going on.
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RG-50.030.0082_trs_en.jsonl
18,904,884
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SEQ140-Q: What was going on?
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SEQ141-A: Well, we saw the Jews being gathered into one open field. We watched them being separated, a group here, a group there, examining their papers and some taken away and some returned back to the houses.
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