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SEQ58-A: My aunt or my cousin, her son. You wanted to know how about my grandmother, I think you asked. Oh, no. I did say -- I did tell you that she committed suicide when she found out that my Uncle Miatek was killed.
[]
RG-50.030.0086_trs_en.jsonl
564,938,852
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spans_manual
accept
1,678,894,271
SEQ59-Q: I'd like to go back now. You're talking about the beginning of the Polish revolt in 1944. Can you tell me what that day was like?
[]
RG-50.030.0086_trs_en.jsonl
1,325,646,373
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spans_manual
accept
1,678,894,273
SEQ60-A: Well, I can tell you what it was for me.
[]
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spans_manual
accept
1,678,894,275
SEQ61-Q: Of course.
[]
RG-50.030.0086_trs_en.jsonl
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spans_manual
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1,678,894,276
SEQ62-A: It was a day that I had the time off and I went to visit my aunt and my cousin and came back in quite a good mood because I saw them. They were safe. They were alive. I gave them, each one of them, regards so I was kind of a contact. They were not seeing each other. So the mood was elated and I came back to Zoliborz, to the restaurant and I told Pepi all about it. Of course, we had to communicate very discreetly because the owners of the restaurant couldn't find out that we know each other from before or who we are. So the -- that day was good. When the shots started, I didn't know what it was all about but this Stefan who arranged for my aunt to stay with his sister, he came in that day to the restaurant, and he said that there 1s a revolt going and he's 1n it and he won't see me for a while. I never saw him since. Never again. And the first day was, was pretty good for me. But then of course the shooting started. I have to explain that when you are with other people and they are shooting buildings with the Krajowa® from across the river, you're scared, but you feel that you're in the same co-- position with all other people and that there is a war going on. One never suggests that that when there is a political war that somebody wants to hurt civilians. But, sure, civilians do get hurt, so it was not bad -- especially when we heard after a while that the Russians are in Praga, across the river, and we thought any minute they'll come in. Somebody will come in to stop the shooting. Somebody would free so that we don't have the shooting and, and nobody dies. Well, it didn't happen that way because the Russians stopped there. They didn't cross the river. The, the revolt took two months and then we were all captured and led through the city of Warsaw to the train that took us to Pruszkow, and at the time the city of Warsaw was very, very bad. We could smell the smoldering the, the, the fires but they were almost burned out. Mainly, we saw skeletons of homes, of houses. We walked in the middle of the road because there was a lot of debris and we were walked to the train and at that time from Warsaw to Pruszkow. We went in cattle trains, but locked not closed. They were halfway open. Nobody thought of jumping or, or running away. Pepi and I, we looked at each other: “Are we going or are we not?” I -- she said, “Let's wait a while and see what happens.” Little did I know that she had, she had poison that she carried with her and she kept it for the last minute, if necessary. I found that out when we got to Ravensbruek and we stayed in line to go into the bath house and she asked me while we ® Armia Krajowa [Home Army] (Polish). were staying in line if, if I think that, is it time or not yet? And I said, “Oh, let's wait and see,’ and by the time we got in and we were ordered to strip and give everything away, she didn't have it anymore.
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spans_manual
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1,678,894,332
SEQ63-Q: Could you tell me about the arrival in Ravensbruek, please?
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RG-50.030.0086_trs_en.jsonl
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SEQ64-A: Oh, yes.
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spans_manual
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SEQ65-Q: And could you repeat the word “Ravensbruek” so it’s on the tape?
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RG-50.030.0086_trs_en.jsonl
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spans_manual
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SEQ66-A: Yeah, well, in Pruszkow we were put on trains, and these were cattle trains, all closed, locked with tiny little window and we were taken -- I don't know if it was 10 days, two weeks, 12 days -- it was day after day after day and night after night. We were taken and we stopped on the railroad, on side roads. Many times there was an air attack and the train had to stop. We had reached one camp near, near Berlin. I forgot the name of the camp. that rumors were we were going to stay there and then we didn't stay there and again with the train until we reached Ravensbruek, yeah. Of course, the conditions were terrible, you know. Hardly anything, but we made it, and in Ravensbruek we stayed in line. We were political prisoners. We were not Jews. We were political prisoners and we were standing in line registering our names and given out numbers. We were asked age and, of course, they looked us over and I said that I was 18. I was lying about my name so I was also lying about my age. I wanted to be with Pepi. Pepi I think was in her 30s. So I got a number and there was a red triangle made of cloth with the letter “P” on it for political prisoner. The red was for political prisoner and on a white cloth was my number, 74073. And she was 704 -- 4074. I don't remember whether it was, she was first or I was first. I think I was first, and we got consecutive numbers and from then on we had no names, just numbers, and then we went to the bath house. We -- as I said they took away our clothes. We had to strip. Everybody was shaved. I don't know by what miracle Pepi and I were not shaved. Until today I have no answer. Somebody told me that the majority of people had lice. I don't believe it because this is not why you were shaved but they did not shave her. They did not shave me. They left my long hair and when we went to the baths, we really expected to die. We really did, and we said, “Well, we could have taken the poison but it's gone and it probably won't take longer with being gassed.” Well, we were very surprised when water came. And we, we really got a shower. There was even this gray soap that looked like pumice stone but a little softer. But 1t was not gas, so we took the showers and we went out on the other end of the building and we were given the striped uniforms and then I understood why we wanted to take the poison before we went in because each group that went in ahead of us, we never saw them coming out. We didn't recognize them. They were shaved and wearing stripes. So then when we got stripes and were getting sizes that are impossible, a big person would get a tiny dress, a tiny, tiny person would get a big dress, but we came out alive and we had our numbers and a triangle and we were assigned to barracks. When we came into the barracks, we saw on the wall Jewish writing, names, messages, many of it in Yiddish which I couldn't read, but Pepi could and she told me they were names. She read them to me and I, I could understand. I just couldn't read or write, and she told me there were messages, very, very heartbreaking messages and names of the people: “We...we were here. We’re the last. Tell others to remember us.” It, it was very sad, but we were ushered to those barracks and we were not killed. We, we had these straw mattresses, three in a row high and we stayed there until they sent us to another camp.
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spans_manual
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1,678,894,431
SEQ67-Q: Ravens- how long were you in Ravensbruek?
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RG-50.030.0086_trs_en.jsonl
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spans_manual
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1,678,894,433
SEQ68-A: Well, I have to figure 1t out. We went to Ravensbruek at the last day of the Polish revolt which was October, November, and in Ravensbruek we must have been, December, December, January, and then we were, we were sent to a camp in a forest Wildbou near Brandenburg.
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787,097,718
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spans_manual
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1,678,894,443
SEQ69-Q: Let's stay in, in Ravensbruek. You were there for more than a few days, which is the only thing --
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RG-50.030.0086_trs_en.jsonl
-735,241,006
1,184,638,337
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spans_manual
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1,678,894,446
SEQ70-A: Yes, but a short time and then I was staying longer in the other camp, in the in the forest.
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RG-50.030.0086_trs_en.jsonl
-2,112,178,623
440,365,697
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spans_manual
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1,678,894,449
SEQ71-Q: Can you tell me a little more about what Ravensbruek was like?
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RG-50.030.0086_trs_en.jsonl
-484,726,676
737,269,891
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spans_manual
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1,678,894,450
SEQ72-A: Ravensbruek was a very huge camp and there were inmates from many, many nations. In the short stay I could notice truck-fulls of bodies -- how skinny, just bones and skin, bodies, dead bodies. They had, they had a place where they hung people. I did not witness any, any hangings but they, they had a place and I could see the trucks going back and forth with bodies here and bodies there. We did not do much over there. We were then transported to another camp. And that was in a forest and it was a smaller camp, and we were building this railroad tracks for, for a narrow or a short distance train. It was very cold. We were marched every morning, after what we call Apell’ time. We were marched to work. Were putting the, the railroad tracks and the ties and while we were doing that, while we were marching, we were guarded by SS people, men and women with dogs and when we got there they would, we would make a fire so they could stay and keep warm while we were working and worked. Towards the evenings, we were coming back and we would get watery soup, or water, whatever. In that camp was really bad. ? Roll call (German). The, the, the SS men and the SS women, they were beating everybody they could see and the, the terrain was wet. They would put people face down and, and just stomp on them and beat them. I saw once thing like that. After this railroad thing, one day I was transferred to another barr- to a barrack where they had a factory and they told me they are parts for airplanes, but all I saw was little screws or little small items that you had to punch holes in and they told us how to do it, so I immediately asked if my mother could come, too. It was really not safe to do that, but I did and they said, “Yes,” so Pepi and I were brought, worked in that factory and she was working there testing. You have to test if they are good or bad, and most of them were bad, really, but we had to, we had to produce something because the foreman tried to be nice to, to us, not to beat us or anything, and we all tried to back him up and he had some quota to fulfill. If there is so and so much bad output, then he would be punished, so I remember Pepi was telling me that she was checking and she was saying, “Make good ones, make bad ones, whatever.” And we worked there 12 hours a day.
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RG-50.030.0086_trs_en.jsonl
-1,988,727,103
708,580,736
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1,678,894,527
SEQ73-Q: You said you had convinced the guards to let you bring your mother. You were pretending --
[]
RG-50.030.0086_trs_en.jsonl
-1,236,791,632
93,065,875
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1,678,894,529
SEQ74-A: Not the guards, the, the, the managers of it, yeah.
[]
RG-50.030.0086_trs_en.jsonl
-1,244,605,405
368,918,568
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1,678,894,531
SEQ75-Q: You pretended that Pepi was your mother?
[]
RG-50.030.0086_trs_en.jsonl
-1,268,953,944
-1,453,616,899
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accept
1,678,894,532
SEQ76-A: Yes, yes. It so happened that during all this time that I met Pepi, she tried to protect me and I tried to protect her. She lost her own child and apparently she felt she wanted to help. She, she was an outstanding person. To describe her, I probably couldn't. That's how good she was, and for everybody to everybody -- to humanity. On my side, she, she had dark hair, brown eyes, and she looked Jewish. I don't know what it means to look Jewish but that's what the stereotype is, look Jewish. On the other hand, I didn't very much. And I felt that in this respect if I say she's my mother, she will gain from it. I could have made a mistake. I don't know. I think this was behind my thinking and it worked somehow. So we were there, and, and being together with somebody you care for was excellent. At the evening, Pepi would teach me history, math, and she would talk to me about her husband, who might be alive. By the way, she found him after the war. He survived, yes. And Pepi was teaching me a lot. We, we didn't have a piece of paper or a pencil, but she would teach me a French song or geography, explaining things. It helped a lot. It helped a lot. I, I felt real good, and when you when you feel good, you're with somebody, you care for somebody, it makes you feel good; and Pepi cared for everybody, Pepi cared for everybody. One day I saw Pepi doesn't eat her portion of bread and I said, “What you -- ?” She says, “I was hungry. I ate already.” No she didn't. There was a Pani Arova who was very, very sick. A wife of a Polish major who we knew from Zoliborz, where we worked in the restaurant. I think she lived in the same apart- building. Pepi found her and since she was elderly, Pepi gave her her portion of bread, but she wouldn't tell me about it, and sure enough when I found out I said, “Then we'll share mine,” and she said “No, you're a young child. You have to survive.” I mean, I had problems with, with this that she would give away everything to everybody. She was just fantastic. What a human being. I'm not the only one who, who gained by her being around, who gained so much of everything, of understanding, of love, of helping others. She was just fantastic. So then we were in the camp and we heard some rumors that the war is coming closer. But we didn't know anything. This foreman apparently he also felt that Pepi was a nice and a good person, a worthwhile. He somehow let her know that things are going better for us. In other words, things are not going so good for the Germans, and at one time he gave her a piece of paper and a pencil so that she could teach me something. She wanted to teach me something to write and, and he, he did that, but we had to give it back right away, so we knew that something is, 1s happening, but we didn't know what. And, and the hope was really making us imagine better things, so one day -- it must have been again in March or April, in March, I think, March of '45 -- they put us in trains and they sent us to so-called “Free work.” Each one was assigned to some deserving German family or on a farm to work and this, Pepi and I we were assigned to two villages not far from each other in the northern part of Germany near Rostock. I was in Kulingsborn, and she was in Bornhagen. And we were there until May, I think, 5. We were liberated by the Russians, who didn't believe that we did not cooperate with the Germans. It, it was hard for them to understand because we were working here on, for a family or for a farmer so they, they just didn't believe that about a month or six weeks ago we were taken out of, of concentration camps and, and put there for whatever reason, I don't know. And that's where we, we were liberated.
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SEQ77-Q: What did you do? What happened to you?
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SEQ78-A: Well, Pepi made out. Pepi made out little, called a little -- a travel document, in Russian, and she put some stamps, different colors rubber stamps that mean nothing in German or whatever, whatever she could find in the farmer's, in the farmer's place and the, the Russian that occupied the farm that she was, they stayed there. They made it a headquarters, and in a couple of days I came running to her because where I was, was terrible, so I stayed with her and she made out those papers and she told the Russians that we want to go back home. One of them, quite an intelligent fellow, he says, “Well, why don't you go to Russia. Your daughter will go to school and, and you'll be fine and I'll write to my commandant to, to arrange for you.” So Pepi asked me, “Do you want to go to Russia?” I said, “No. I, I want to go home and see if I can find somebody alive.” So she, she said, “We'll have to think about it, want to see who 1s alive.” And they said “Oh, you can find out from there, too. Just go to Russia.” Anyway, Pepi got some kind of a carriage that took us, horse and buggy, that took us out and with those papers that she prepared, we got ourselves to Berlin. And when we got to Berlin there was a a Jewish office on Rikostrasse (ph), a Jewish office where there were DPs, and we went there to register to, to say that, “We're alive, we're here, and what next?” And the funniest thing happened: when I when I was interviewed by the interviewer on Rikostrasse in Berlin, he didn't want to believe that that I was Jewish. I had problems convincing him, but I could prove it. I could prove it with the names and, and what little I knew. It was, the names of my family and, and we had a conversa- a lengthy conversation ‘til, ‘til he believed me. And we stayed in Berlin for a while. That was another chapter that was very heartbreaking, however, nobody was getting killed and that was the good part. And the Allies brought some food and some clothing and people were looking for each other. It was just like drunk with freedom. Everybody was drunk with freedom but looking, “Who...who 1s alive? What do we do?” But this was the good part of it. The bad part of it is that I didn't find anybody when I tried to go back. Tried to go back and, and didn't find anybody. That was bad. Later on I found my father's brother in England with his family. I found my youngest uncle in Israel who went there before the war as a khalutz,'° and then I found that my Aunt Esther and her husband who was in Russia survived, and then they found little Jacek, and they came to Israel as a family. And that was something out of this world.
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spans_manual
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1,678,894,738
SEQ79-Q: So when you -- can we come back to you now? What did you do? Where did you go?
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spans_manual
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SEQ80-A: I, I was 1n Berlin, as I said, with Pepi, and we met there. Actually Pepi, she saw all kinds of people from, from the Jewish community and they were also American Jews, English Jews, French and Russian -- in all the armies. That was before Berlin was, was divided by a wall; it was all open. And Pepi, as usual, decided to, to help out others, so she had me do things to help out others and people who came let's say from Russia or from a camp, needed to stay over or go somewhere or get some clothes, being sent being sent wherever they wanted to. So the majority wanted to go to, to the west. Pepi was there to help. Oh, yeah, Pepi was there to help, and being with her you couldn't help but help others. It was great to be able to do something that you wanted to do, to be able to say, “Yes, you can go. You're free. Where do you want to go? You can go. You're hungry, here’s food,” you know? There was a Jewish holiday where they had in Berlin. I'll never forget that. Pepi invited all the Jewish people from all the armies. She says, “I don't care if they are the French Army, the Russian Army, the American -- it's a Jewish holiday.” '© Pioneer (Hebrew). They all came together and what a meal. I think each one brought something with them because we didn't have much and we had candles and they prayed, and it was a holiday. I mean, that was after all the, the things that we went through, there was a real Jewish holiday which was celebrated. I couldn't communicate with most of them. Learned a little Russian in concentration camp, but Pepi knew languages, but it didn't matter. You could communicate. And you could help. And that was great. It was great. It was like ecstasy. It's just later on that everything comes out, when you find out that you don't have anybody anymore and it settles in. I find that we all carry with us, the survivors I mean, we carry with us a certain something. I can't put my finger on a certain part in our brain that is different from everybody else in the world who did not go through what we did. I think that I can recognize a survivor probably from across the street, or at least when we exchange a few words. There is something about us that I don't find in any other people; maybe the, the sad look in their eyes or maybe some expressions. I don't know what it 1s. And we all carry that and many times our children do that, too. they, although they didn't go through the things we did, they're a part of it. They suffer from not having uncles and aunts and cousins. They suffer because their parents are overly protective. They suffer from it. They do it. I get a phone call from my kids every week, whether I need it or not, because I can't live otherwise. This is, this is the leftover from, from knowing where they are, knowing that they are all right. I wish I could change, but I can't. They have to understand that that's what I need. They do understand it but it's, it's an imposition on people. People shouldn't have to do that. So, my generation and our children, they carry the burden. Hopefully, we won’t have that thing happen again and, and the grandchildren will not need to, to carry the burden. They, they can learn from history what happened so, so they can prevent it in the future, but they shouldn't need to carry a burden. Nobody should.
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spans_manual
accept
1,678,894,808
SEQ81-Q: Id like -- indeed -- I'd like to come back to know how you got to Bergen-Belsen?
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RG-50.030.0086_trs_en.jsonl
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spans_manual
accept
1,678,894,811
SEQ82-A: Oh, well, I got to Bergen-Belsen after the war finished. We start off in Berlin where Pepi and I stayed and helped. And, of course, there were for Pepi, helped in a in a orphanage and tried, at that time there were, the British wanted to take the orphans out to the British zone. They started making the zones, French zone, British zone, you know, and Pepi registered me in the orphanage, and I went to the orphanage so that one day the British came with a truck and they told us to sit down in the truck and they took us out. What I didn't know then which I found out later was that some authority got -- found out that Pepi's helping many DPs and even some soldiers from, from a different army who did not allow their people to, to move, but they wanted to, to go. And she was helping and somehow they found out and they came looking for her at night and she ran away. She knew that she was being hunted at that time, so she sent me away.
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SEQ83-Q: Ok, Let’s take -- I need to go back in the truck, you are now loaded into a truck. Where are you taken?
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RG-50.030.0086_trs_en.jsonl
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spans_manual
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SEQ84-A: Oh, we were taken first, first we were taken, I think we stopped at Hanover. We stopped at Hanover, and then we were taken to Bergen-Belsen, or was it the other way around? I can't remember.
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RG-50.030.0086_trs_en.jsonl
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1,678,894,848
SEQ85-Q: Can you tell us what was Bergen-Belsen like at that time?
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spans_manual
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1,678,894,849
SEQ86-A: Bergen-Belsen was another orphanage, and I was just talking to -- it was Block RB-6 was the orphanage where there were some orphans and they brought us in to together so that they could care for us. And, of course, many people were ecstatic, they found each other but I couldn't find anybody I knew. I didn't know too many people before the war started and so I couldn't find many people and they cared for us very well in Bergen-Belsen, but it was all after the war. It, 1t was -- the burden was already there.
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spans_manual
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1,678,894,862
SEQ87-Q: Is this where you met Hadassah?
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spans_manual
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1,678,894,865
SEQ88-A: Yes, yes. That's where I met Hadassah, right.
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1,678,894,866
SEQ89-Q: Can you tell me what she was doing? Could you repeat her name?
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spans_manual
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1,678,894,869
SEQ90-A: Hadassah Rosensaft. Well, at that time, when I was in Bergen-Belsen, her name was Dr. Bimko, and there was a gentleman by the name of Yasala (ph) Rosensaft, and they were caring for the DPs, the displaced persons. I know that much, and I remember they got married. However, I did not -- I wasn't there apparently when their son was born. I found that out much later. And we kept in touch throughout the years but not very close and not very often. Her ways were, were different from mine although we lived also in Manhattan afterwards. I had two children to raise. I had a job and our ways are not the same but whenever there was something going on where survivors meet, she was there and I was there and somehow, even if we didn't talk or we just acknowledged, we were there. It's funny. We were there --
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spans_manual
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1,678,894,891
SEQ91-Q: I'm sorry. I'm going to have to interrupt you because of time. Can you tell me when you came to the United States?
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spans_manual
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1,678,894,894
SEQ92-A: I came to the United States in November of 1955.
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spans_manual
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1,678,894,895
SEQ93-Q: Who came with you?
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spans_manual
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1,678,894,896
SEQ94-A: My dear husband, Ike.
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spans_manual
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1,678,894,897
SEQ95-Q: Oh, wait, wait, wait. Back up. Where did you meet Ike at?
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spans_manual
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1,678,894,899
SEQ96-A: Oh.
[]
RG-50.030.0086_trs_en.jsonl
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SEQ97-Q: We have to be short here.
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SEQ98-A: Ok, well, from Bergen-Belsen a short, short trip, we’re sent to Blankenese, which 1s another place for the orphans. From Blankenese, we went to Marseilles where we boarded a ship, Champolion, that brought us to Egypt. Now Hadassah was on it. I didn't know that because my Pepi was putting in on Champoulyan. Pepi was adding people who didn't have any papers. Approximately 10 before us went up, went on board before I was allowed to board it, so many, many illegal -- but we, we got there, and it was impossible to see each other on the, on the ship. Many people and overloaded and all that, but we made the trip and we got there. And as Hadassah explained, we were divided into three groups. Each one went to a different kibbutz. We were studying. We were working and we were also semi-drafted, ala cub scouts, except we were trained with rifles and, and grenades and night, night exercise, combat exercise. then of course we had the War of Independence. After the War of Independence, I went to England to see my uncle, my father's brother, and he wanted to adopt me but I wanted to go back to Israel. And when I came back from Israel, I met Ike whom I married two years later.
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SEQ99-Q: Then you came to the United States?
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spans_manual
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SEQ100-A: We came to the United States with Ike and with a little 18-month old son, and Ike's parents were here in New York. We lived with them and then with another little boy born in New York City in Mt. Sinai Hospital, right. And that's the story.
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SEQ101-Q: Quite a story. Doris, can you tell me what you think the effect of the Holocaust has been on you, of going through all that?
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spans_manual
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SEQ102-A: Never thought about it, what the effect is on me. My children and my husband, they tell me that I'm a strong lady and I think that if it is true, then this would be one result. The effect is that I am probably overly sensitive to people's opinions, to people's behavior, and I'm constantly on the watch about safety, about wars, about slanderous talking. I'm more sensitive to that, I think, as a result. I also find that telling your story and telling what you feel towards people, which is mainly good stuff, love, people are good if they know it but if they are fed different information and they don't know any better, they can't behave any better. I, I feel that that I can, that I can explain or like people more than I could before the war. I'm closer to, to everybody, to the whole world because of it. I'm also watchful. I think all this 1s, is the result from, from what I went through my life. We're all, we're all products of our past, and I think that's what the past did to me. Good, bad, indifferent, I don't know. That’s just me.
[]
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1,678,894,966
SEQ103-Q: I thank you, Doris.
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SEQ104-A: I wish I didn’t have to —
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1,678,894,968
SEQ105-Q: Yes, ok, that’s it. We’ve got a couple of pictures. Doris, thank you very, very much. [Discussion of Photographs] Conclusion of Interview
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SEQ0-Q: Okay, Mr. Gruber would you please tell us your name?
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SEQ1-A: Yes, My name is Samuel Gruber.
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spans_manual
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1,678,993,195
SEQ2-Q: And what was the name that you used in Poland, during the time of the story that you are going to be sharing with us today?
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RG-50.030.0087_trs_en.jsonl
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spans_manual
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1,678,993,209
SEQ3-A: In the story they called me Mietek, it was a Polish name, it was a first name from Mietek, but Gruber. Mietek Gruber. But before the war they called me Munyo. I was known — in my town I was called — named Munyo Gruber. They called me that.
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RG-50.030.0087_trs_en.jsonl
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spans_manual
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1,678,993,258
SEQ4-Q: And which town was that, that you—?
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RG-50.030.0087_trs_en.jsonl
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spans_manual
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1,678,993,259
SEQ5-A: My town is a small town in Galicia, named Podhajce, not far from Lemberg. I went to school public there. Had my family, five people in the family, with my mother and father was seven. We — one of my sisters in 1928 married an American — came from America — American, and she come over to America with him and she was here. And I remembered her — his number here, address and being in a — as a prisoner of war, I wrote to her and she wrote to me and we contacted each other. She was here in America. The rest of the family disappeared.
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RG-50.030.0087_trs_en.jsonl
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spans_manual
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1,678,993,285
SEQ6-Q: Okay. Let's go back then to the period of time before the war. Tell us a little about what life was like in the town in which you were born.
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RG-50.030.0087_trs_en.jsonl
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spans_manual
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1,678,993,287
SEQ7-A: Podhajce was a small town. It was maybe 4,000 Jews and around, around the town were Polish people, Ukrainians. There was a difference from the Pollacks. And I went to school there, to the public school, for seven years we went. And the town was a very, very nice town. It was Podhajce — that mean, they had a lot of trees and water and people came from all over Poland almost for like a recreation. It was a very nice place. And I don't remember poor people there because usually in the towns, in the shtetel you call, there was a lot of poor people. I don't remember poor people there. Everybody had some kind of store or a business, a small one. My father was a builder. He came from another town and he was building in Podhajce, and he met my mother. My mother was a farmer's daughter, they had land, and he married her and I'm — all my life I was till 26 years, the war start — I was with my mother's family. I hardly knew my father's family. They were in another town, so it wasn't so easy to go from town to town like it is today. But still when I was 14 years old, I went away to Lemberg — Lwow, they called it — to a bigger town, and I went to high school there and I finished school.
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spans_manual
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1,678,993,339
SEQ8-Q: And after you finished high school?
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SEQ9-A: Oh, I came back. Not directly. I came maybe one or two years later because I had a job in Lemberg. I got some — I helped out some with teaching little bit, I did odd jobs. And then I came back to Podhajce, to my family. And I had a job, was a bookkeeper, I worked in a big company from a farmer’s equipment and bicycles, this kind of thing. I was a bookkeeper, there. I worked — till the war started, I worked there. I had a girlfriend. I went out with her for years before the war. And in 19—I was a soldier before, too.
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spans_manual
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1,678,993,359
SEQ10-Q: Tell us about that. In what way were you a soldier?
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SEQ11-A: They took — they drafted. After 18 years — 19 years, they drafted, and you had to go. And I was physically fit and they took me. Usually they didn't took Jews. Very, few Jews they took to the army, but I was fitting and I had school, and they took me to the army. And I was one and a half years in Tarnopol in the army and I finished the army I came home again and I was working back again in the job. And in ‘39 before the war started, maybe a month, the town was small and we knew each other. A lot of friends. We were always talking politics on the streets and what will be, what will be, about Hitler came in ‘33 and we knew what was going on. The Pollacks were already showing their faces too. They didn't — so much the Pollacks like the Ukraine, there were very few Pollacks there. But the Ukrainians there, they showed us that we are Jews, and they are — we had fights with them. Not big ones, not killings, but fists fights and all kind of — I remember one Purim where we made some kind of a party and a Pollack came and he wanted to disturb this. And I had a big fight with him and he almost killed me because he was very big. I didn't give him an inch, I just gave him back. But he never forgot me this guy. He came after a few days after me. He almost killed me. Around the house he was waiting for me. At least, we had our share with this antisemitism. We did not feel so much in with Podhajce, like we felt in Lemberg. We felt it more in the bigger towns. They were they called it Endeks!. There was a group of Pollacks, the right wing and they were completely against the Jews and they were even killing before the war break. We had a big fight with them on the streets in the gardens and whatever — it was a street like in Akademicka. That remind me today somebody. Jews couldn't walk there. And there was the biggest houses belonged to Jews and there was a guy — Stricher(ph) was his name — he had this biggest house like on Akademicka street. He couldn't even collect the rent there. He couldn't go over because the antisemitism was so big and they couldn't — they were almost sitting in the streets daring, waiting for Jews to come and to beat them up. The situation before the war was already ripe for this, but like a like — the churchman said ' National Democrats (Polish); abbreviated from “Endecja.” in Poland, “Boycotting is all right, the Jews. Beating them up, 1s alright. But not killing. Killing is not our aim,” the Catholic church.
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spans_manual
accept
1,678,993,465
SEQ12-Q: When we get back to the story that you're telling us about your completing the army activity, returning to work, the war began, where were you when the war began? What were you doing?
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RG-50.030.0087_trs_en.jsonl
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spans_manual
accept
1,678,993,469
SEQ13-A: That's right. Before the war, they called me over on the reserves. Maybe two or three weeks before the war started. They called me to Nowy Sacz, a town not far from the borders of Germany. It is not far from Przemysl and Tarnow. And they — I went to the army. They, they put us in uniforms and we started to exercise. And maybe two weeks after, nobody new about this. Nobody — the people around there was surrounded there. Zakopane was a place where people came there for a cure. And nobody knew that the war started and all of a sudden during the night they starting shooting and they left us behind, the Germans, and they moved in. It was a Blitzkrieg. They moved in before we even knew what happen. We were in the army. We were sitting in the mountains because there was a lot of mountains, the Carpathian Mountains. And we were sitting there and waiting for the Germans and they were around us already, deep in, in Poland and we didn't know they were around us. But after a time they started with us too because they did it in pockets like, and they start fighting with us and I was wounded in my right arm. I was shot and I fell, and but they didn't see me, and I walked over to a house there to a Polish woman and I begged her to let me in because I was bleeding and she saw me and she was crying. She was afraid, but she took me in and she start helping me and she bandaged my wound and I was laying — when I was laying there for five minutes the Germans came in. And screaming and looking, and the one with the pistol came over to me and I spoke fluently German. I told him, “I'm a soldier and I, I'm wounded.” He said, "Okay, don't worry. We will take you back to the hospital.” And they gave me something to eat even there because they took from the farm woman and gave it to me and they brought me back to the hospital.
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spans_manual
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1,678,993,526
SEQ14-Q: So you were a prisoner of war?
[]
RG-50.030.0087_trs_en.jsonl
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spans_manual
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1,678,993,527
SEQ15-A: And I became a prisoner of war. But I was in the hospital. I didn't feel it so much because I was still a prisoner of war, a Polish prisoner of war. Nobody bothered me specially as a Jew. Nobody said nothing to me. But the Polish people and the woman that worked there, they knew about it that I am Jewish, but they didn't make a special—
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RG-50.030.0087_trs_en.jsonl
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1,678,993,536
SEQ16-Q: How did they know?
[]
RG-50.030.0087_trs_en.jsonl
-659,272,913
-882,118,452
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spans_manual
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1,678,993,536
SEQ17-A: Face and the, the manners. They knew a Jew. They recognize. Pollacks recognize a Jew even we didn't look like one. They knew. And I was lying there maybe a month in the hospital until I could move my right hand. I couldn't move it, but they helped me out a little bit and I'm, I'm moving it. I still till today is — I cannot pick my hand that's all. And after a month and a half, they took us, whoever was in the hospital left, and they took us to Germany. In a train, they brought me over to Germany. And they brought me into Stalag 13 —1n the film you will see, Stalag 13 — as a prisoner of war. The second day I came in, they put us 1n a line up, all the Polish prisoners and they asked, “Juden raustreten’.” "Jews report.” I was hesitating for a minute, I admit and two friends of mine, Pollacks, they were standing in my side both of them and they pushed me out and they said, "Here is a Jew.”
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RG-50.030.0087_trs_en.jsonl
1,668,054,728
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spans_manual
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1,678,993,575
SEQ18-Q: Must have been nice friends.
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spans_manual
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1,678,993,576
SEQ19-A: Two friends of mine. A day before we, we shared bread because on the way we came, they throw bread to us to the, to the train. And I always — they always give me I should divide it and I was, I was always a leader between them. And all of a sudden, they decided, “here's a Jew.” Then I came out. I had no, no choice, and they put a separate barracks but to the same place they kept us. They took us to all kinds of work, heavy work during this. We were cleaning after even Hitler when he spoke in Nuremberg. That was — I was around Nur—Langwasser, Stalag 13 was there. Nuremberg, we were cleaning after Hitler. He spoke once. And I was a little bit more home in the barracks because I couldn't work so hard with my hand and they knew about it the Germans. They had their report. And in fact, the Red Cross came to us and my number's 30,189. I still remember. And they have the record of me when I was born, where I was born, and where I fell — the 8th of October I think, and when I was in prison.
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1,678,993,621
SEQ20-Q: This is a good chance to go back for a moment to think about your family. You have told us about the war beginning, your involvement in the war. Where was your family?
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1,678,993,623
SEQ21-A: That's a very interesting. My family was on the other side of the border. The Russians took over one side of Poland. The Germans took over the other. They had made pact, Ribbentrop® and Molotov’, and they divided Poland. My family was in Galicia, and then belonged to Russian and I was on the other side by the Germans and they were by the Russians. So 1941 they were under the Russian. It wasn't too good, but still my father was working. He was a builder and he built houses for them, and he built this. And he — they made a living. Nobody killed him there. They knew what is going on the other side, because I was corresponding with them. As a prisoner of war, I had the right to write — to send letters and they were receiving the letters and they were answering me. And one was an interesting that I sent a letter that went from one camp to the other when they took me. I was in a few camps. But they cut my hair. I had very nice bushy hair and I didn't like it that they cut my hair. I looked like a muselman’. I looked very bad. Then I wrote to my * Jews step out! (German) 3 Joachim von Ribbentrop * Vyacheslav Molotov > Muslim (German); camp term used to refer to prisoners who had lost the will to live and were near death. parents that they cut my hair again and my sister answers me, "Watch that they shouldn't cut your head. The hair will grow back.” And that was the truth. I had to watch my head.
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RG-50.030.0087_trs_en.jsonl
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spans_manual
accept
1,678,993,668
SEQ22-Q: So during this time while you were prisoner of war, you did keep contact with your family?
[]
RG-50.030.0087_trs_en.jsonl
1,897,153,437
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spans_manual
accept
1,678,993,670
SEQ23-A: I kept contact with my family and I kept contact even with my sister in America. I was sending her letters, and she even sent me a package — she was sending me a package. I had this sweater — I can never forget — a green sweater. She sent me and I put it on, and when I run away to the, to the woods, I had this sweater on. And after a time, there were SO many insects in this that when I took it over, the sweater walked away by itself. That's a joke, that's the truth. That's the way it was. I mean I had contact with my sister and I had contact with my family.
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RG-50.030.0087_trs_en.jsonl
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spans_manual
accept
1,678,993,689
SEQ24-Q: Okay. Now, let's get back to where you were. You were taken into Stalag and you were given a particular work assignment?
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RG-50.030.0087_trs_en.jsonl
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spans_manual
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1,678,993,693
SEQ25-A: I was assigned to the kitchen more or less because in the beginning, they did some other works and later on they put me in the kitchen. In the kitchen, I was making coffee and I was making lunch. And I once I made coffee and I didn't know what sugar is. They gave me the salt and sugar was for me the same. I never saw it before. And you had to — sugar was in lumps not loose. And I put in ..instead of sugar, I put in salt in the coffee in the morning, the group went to work, was Pollacks also, they were eating from this kitchen. They wanted to kill me because the coffee was salted and they figured — they called me in the Germans right away and they said it's sabotage and usually when — if I would be under the SS, I wouldn't live. They would kill me. But this was Wehrmacht® there. And some of them are still people today you could talk to. And I understand. told him this story that I didn't know what it is and I put in salt. And he let me go. But he gave me a lesson. I think he took me, he put me to work, but he was somehow lenient to me because I helped him out after a time in his office too. I write German fluently, and I was helping in the office to write it. And from — this was in Ludwigsburg, I think, yes. I was in Nuremberg, and then I was in Ludwigsburg and then I was in what the name? Munzinger. They were taking us from one place to the other. And then Munzinger, all of a sudden they decided or it's not — they, I mean, the headquarters — decided that all Jews have to be sent back to Poland. How”? They said they don't want prisoners now. The Pollacks — the Polish war was finished. Why should they keep prisoners? “You are Jews, and no, no prisoners and we send you home.” And they suppose to change, to change us over with the Russians. That was in ‘41, and after a time they took us — they put us in trains and they brought us to Gleiwitz and from Gleiwitz, they brought us to Lublin in a camp Lipowa Seven. There was from horses from a camp before. And this Lipowa, right away by the train, when they took us over, they showed us, right away, who they are. They ° General title of German armed forces from 1935 to 1945. were SS. They came with, with the dogs, peitsches’, sticks and all kinds of this, and they were beating us right all the way to the camp. And they told, "You are no more prisoners of war. You are Jews and we will be treated as Jews.” But still they kept us separate. They didn't put us together with the ghetto. There was a ghetto. In Lublin there was a ghetto already then. And they did not put us in the ghetto. But there was an interesting story. Before I came there was maybe a thousand prisoners. They were all Jews also, what came and they — the Germans brought them over to the Jews from the ghetto and they told them, "You feed them. That's your Jews. You feed them.” And they, they didn't have what to eat themselves in Lublin. The people, the population was very bad for the ghetto. And they said, "We don't have food.” They said, "Good.” They took them out and they killed all the prisoners of war, the whole thousand. Maybe — maybe a tenth was left over by the end. They brought them on the way to Lubartow, a small town, and then to Parczew. Maybe there was left maybe 10, maybe 20. I don't — I cannot tell exactly and there the people — the population, the Jewish population put them in right away and gave them food and they kept. I came after this and they felt that the Jews — they felt they had to do something. They made a kitchen for us in the camp. They brought over and they was cooking for us meals, and they kept us there. The leadership there was from the SS. There was Riedel® was the leader, and there was Dolp’ was a small officer. He was the terror of all Lublin and the terror from all over in Poland. Dolp was known all over. Dolp came in on a horse to the camp and if he saw somebody laying in the bed sick or somebody didn't get up so fast in the morning, he shot him right on the spot. And we had a lot of problems there in the camp. I was still on the, on the care of this hospital whatever because I was shot and I had always showed this paper I had from the Germans that I cannot work so hard. Others were working out and in the beginning also I went out to work and we built the known Majdanek camp, Majdanek concentration camp. They built from the prisoners of war. We built it. And after this was ready, we were still there. They brought in the first prisoners of war from Russia. The war with Russia started in 1941. I think in July, June. I don't remember exactly the date. And when the war started the first prisoners of war in Majdanek were Russians and they said — the Germans said that they are not Russians — just prisoners, but they are commissars. They are officers something like communists real, and they have to die. And they were dying like flies. I don't know if they gave them poison or whatever they gave them, they were dying. They had typhus there and they were dying. And we got — we caught from them typhus from the Russians. Me too. I got sick. I got the typhus. And they brought — they didn't want to give us any care because they were afraid that we will — they will get sick to the Germans, and they took us out and they put us in a synagogue. In the synagogue they put on the floor nothing to cover. Nothing. We just stayed there. We were about 400 sick people and I think 300 died. And the strongest one, somehow — I cannot believe it, but the stronger ones died. And I had some help from the town 7 Whips (German) * Unterscharf Horst Riedel ? Sturmbannfihrer Hermann Dolp somehow. A doctor came in once, and he knew me from before. And he gave me a needle and he ran out fast because he was afraid that everybody want and he didn't have the help for everybody. And he gave me a needle and somehow it helped me, and I lived too.
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SEQ26-Q: Mr. Gruber?
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SEQ27-A: Yeah.
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1,678,993,966
SEQ28-Q: You mentioned before that you were taken into a synagogue? Could you describe what that synagogue looked like?
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SEQ29-A: The synagogue was a very, very big building. It was the biggest synagogue in Lublin. Lublin was a very known town from Jews. The Jews lived there for hundreds of years, historical. The biggest Rabbi for the yeshiva there was in Lublin, and they had the biggest synagogue was there in Lublin, too. And they took out everything. It was bare walls there, and we were, were laying there 400 people on the floor. Plain on the floor. Nobody was taking care of us. Nobody talked to us. Nothing! But the people of Lublin once in awhile were daring. They came in and they brought us food a little bit. They helped us out a little bit in that synagogue.
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SEQ30-Q: These people from Lublin they were in the ghetto?
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SEQ31-A: In the ghetto.
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spans_manual
accept
1,678,993,998
SEQ32-Q: And they managed to get out of the ghetto?
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RG-50.030.0087_trs_en.jsonl
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spans_manual
accept
1,678,993,999
SEQ33-A: No. No. The synagogue was in the ghetto. This was in the ghetto.
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RG-50.030.0087_trs_en.jsonl
635,275,159
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spans_manual
accept
1,678,994,001
SEQ34-Q: Okay.
[]
RG-50.030.0087_trs_en.jsonl
2,007,325,206
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spans_manual
accept
1,678,994,002
SEQ35-A: They didn't have to go out. They came there. They came women and the ladies. I had a girlfriend there what I knew and she came to help me out and had friends they came in to me to see me there.
[]
RG-50.030.0087_trs_en.jsonl
271,771,909
1,908,885,337
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spans_manual
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1,678,994,007
SEQ36-Q: So you were actually able to see what was going on in the ghetto?
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RG-50.030.0087_trs_en.jsonl
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spans_manual
accept
1,678,994,009
SEQ37-A: I was in the ghetto. Lots of times. Because I was working so hard in the outside, then I was inside working for self help. People when they went out they were getting some foods, some bread. They brought it into the camp and they were bringing it over to me and I concentrated and I was going over there. There was a hospital. I would bring over food for them. I was given out for people what ever was poor. They couldn't work. I was giving out bread. It was self help. I was working with another one. Goldberg(ph) was his name. We both worked in this in the camp.
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spans_manual
accept
1,678,994,016
SEQ38-Q: How did it come to pass that you were doing these activities?
[]
RG-50.030.0087_trs_en.jsonl
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352,327,394
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spans_manual
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1,678,994,017
SEQ39-A: I don't know. I was maybe brought up like this from home. I was always in the organizations. I was belonged to Shomer ha-Za’ir!? when I was a youngster for the — for the organization for Israel. In fact, before the war I went also to a Hachshara!'. I was preparing to go to Israel and I was maybe a year and a half in that Hachshara working. And I was always on the side of the poor. I don't know — .somehow I — that was my nature. And I liked to do it, and I — I was helping people.
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RG-50.030.0087_trs_en.jsonl
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spans_manual
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1,678,994,030
SEQ40-Q: But you were more than helping? You were the leader of these activities?
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RG-50.030.0087_trs_en.jsonl
-802,414,780
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spans_manual
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1,678,994,032
SEQ41-A: I've always — somehow they — they gave me the leadership. Always as I remember there was a moment in the camp. There was a lot of doctors, intelligentsia was there. He came into the camp already when it was Jew. And one of the doctor, the Germans wanted him to be the leader of the camps, he came over to me and he said, "Gruber, you are the man for us. We want — I want you to do it.” I said, "No. Not for the Germans I wouldn't do it.” And I didn't want to take it. Another guy took it. But still they felt something from him that I was doing the right thing and they always gave me the leadership.
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RG-50.030.0087_trs_en.jsonl
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spans_manual
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1,678,994,049
SEQ42-Q: How did you feel about taking the leadership?
[]
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spans_manual
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1,678,994,050
SEQ43-A: I was brought up like that because when I was in the organizations I was always there. I was talking to people. I had speeches. But my main subject was antisemitism. I remember today that I was always digging in into this, why there is antisemitism all around. Why the church? Why this? Why they're doing this? And I was always working on this. And people were asking me always the questions about this. Why there is antisemitism? And I told once a story and I don't know why it came to me the story. I was reading it or something that men — a priest asked a man to come into his church. He didn't see him a long time in the church. He said, "Why should I go to the church. You always talk nonsense?" He said, "No, no. Come over. I will have a very nice sermon. Come over.” The man came out. The churchman talks as a sermon about Jews. He said that the Jews killed Christ. The Jews need blood for matzos and all the bad things in the world comes from the Jews. He heard a sermon against the Jews. The Pollack walked out and he grabbed a Jew on the street. They start beating him up. Then the church man came out, the priest came out and said, "Why do you beat this Jew?" He said, "What do you mean why I am beating?" You just told me what the Jews did. They killed Christ and, and all kinds of things.” He said, "Wait a second. That was 2000 years ago. That was a long time ago.” He said, "No, " to the priest. "You told it to me today and while you talking about this, we are listening.” And that's what it was. They were listening to the priest. The priest were always talking about this, that Jews are a menace. “The Jews killed Christ.” But they never told them that Christ was a Jew himself. In Poland if you would tell a '0'Youth guard (Hebrew); Zionist youth organization. 'l Training (Hebrew); Zionist program to prepare youth for emigration to Israel. Pollack that Jesus was a Jew, he would kill you it. Because how can it be? He was God. And that came from the churches. It came this hate for the Jews. Next the economic situation in Poland was so that Jews were working for the big farmers. Jews were working for the kings. Jews were working, collecting taxes. That was their function. And by doing this they came in contact with the nation, with the people.
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spans_manual
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1,678,994,097
SEQ44-Q: You had a lot of this experience?
[]
RG-50.030.0087_trs_en.jsonl
-2,127,617,818
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spans_manual
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1,678,994,098
SEQ45-A: Experience. Built up in me.
[]
RG-50.030.0087_trs_en.jsonl
1,060,397,572
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spans_manual
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1,678,994,099
SEQ46-Q: Let's come back then to where you were when you were put into the synagogue with these 400 people, sick people.
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RG-50.030.0087_trs_en.jsonl
-1,500,898,456
758,076,312
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spans_manual
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1,678,994,101
SEQ47-A: Yeah.
[]
RG-50.030.0087_trs_en.jsonl
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spans_manual
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1,678,994,102
SEQ48-Q: These were all Jews, all workers.
[]
RG-50.030.0087_trs_en.jsonl
1,932,518,951
920,314,818
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spans_manual
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1,678,994,104
SEQ49-A: Yes. All Jews. Workers.
[]
RG-50.030.0087_trs_en.jsonl
-766,466,370
1,140,575,262
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spans_manual
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1,678,994,105
SEQ50-Q: And this had been men who had been working on the Majdanek Camp?
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RG-50.030.0087_trs_en.jsonl
1,819,327,189
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spans_manual
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1,678,994,109
SEQ52-Q: Okay. And you were lying there and the doctor gave you an injection?
[]
RG-50.030.0087_trs_en.jsonl
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