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Ask HN: Why is Go lang so popular for cloud infrastructure - gazarullz
Why there are so many tools built on top of Go now-days and not in other languages like Java, Rust, C# or C/C++ ?<p>What motivates people to pick Go instead of the others which are more stable and seasoned or more performant ?
======
tracker1
Go is a decent language, with some really good built in protections (great
concurrency model), a massive standard library, and a single binary output
that's immensely portable (compared to pretty much anything other than
C/C++/D, etc).
Those are some of the main reasons... it's great for pushing data with
relatively low overhead, and relatively high safety.
Compared to Rust, you could do very similar, but the language is a much larger
break from what most are used to.
Compared to Java/C#, you don't have a relatively large runtime to install, not
nearly as portable. I really like C# myself, but it's not for all use cases,
and the framework need make it a poorer choice for infrastructure tooling.
Also the concurrency model is more transparent in go... in C#, for example,
you can use pooling techniques, but they take more thought and planning. Java
has a history of huge overhead and tooling as well.
Compared to scripted languages, not worth even considering.
It really depends on your needs, but the fact is that Go and Rust are fairly
new, but build with specific needs in mind and do most of them better than
other options, with better safety and more transparent ease of use. Go tends
to be better for networking/communications, and Rust tends to be better with
interacting on system internals.
This is from a conscientious observer. I haven't had a good use case for
either, but may have one for go coming up, so looking forward to that.
~~~
mbrock
Compared to Rust the compiler is also really fast.
------
tmaly
I think the 1.0 compatibility promise, the simplicity of the language, and
great standard library let people focus more on the problem than other
languages.
I wrote my own zero allocation xml parser in Go the other day and it is 2-3
times faster than the standard library. It was not difficult to do mainly
because I could reference what the standard library was doing. The code is
easy to read and understand.
------
NetStrikeForce
As someone that's not a developer I like Go because I'm able to start fast and
get binaries for any major platform without having to install external
dependencies.
I code and test on a Windows box and I deploy to Linux without any changes.
You could say the same about Python, but not really. With Python I have to
maintain the Python environment anywhere I want to run my software. With Go I
only have to maintain it where I compile the code, so the final machine where
it's deployed could even not have Go installed and still run my Go silly
tools.
------
twunde
Golang is cross-platform unlike C#, doesn't have a large start-up time like
Java or C#, is more mature than Rust and higher level than C/C++. A large part
of its popularity was that it was picked up by the python and ruby community,
many of whom highly dislike Java, C# and C.
------
aprdm
IMO go is all about simplicity with a decent stdlib. Fast, single binary to
distribute... Can't go wrong really.
------
bsg75
Rust is less seasoned.
C# is fine on Windows, Linux support is second priority.
C/C++ takes a bit more work and skill (IMO).
Java is probably very widespread, but less popular from a publicity
standpoint.
Go is equally stable on Win and Linux, decent standard library, easy to pick
up for Python, Ruby, Java, C or C++ devs, has a simple deployment model, had a
good concurrency model, and provides fast builds. It has its detractors due to
features not in other languages, but fits the need for a wide variety of
others.
~~~
tracker1
I think for infrastructure tooling, the single binary output is probably a
_really_ big thing over Java (and C#), which have a separate, huge runtime
that switching versions on a system is problematic for.
~~~
icedchai
From a practical perspective, building your java app into a single fat jar
isn't much different. Yeah, you need java installed... big deal.
~~~
tracker1
Installing Java is a pretty big deal... multiple versions, bigger deal...
Also, the runtime is relatively huge. I don't think you'd want to do
CoreOS/etcd/Kubernetes tooling in Java.
~~~
icedchai
I disagree, based on my own experience having worked with Java off and on
since 1996. It was a big deal then. Today, not so much.
Multiple versions? The JVM is generally backwards compatible. It's pretty rare
where an "old version" it is actually _required_. Plus. Java 8 has been out
for over 2.5 years, which is practically an eternity in development time. In
the event you _do_ actually need multiple versions, setting JAVA_HOME and
maybe your PATH is hardly rocket science.
~~~
tracker1
You don't have to worry about Java_home or the clr being installed _at all_...
also, you can build it and deploy it wherever... with Java/.Net built with
newer tooling, then install it on a server that wasn't updated? That isn't a
problem with go...
There's a _HUGE_ class of problems that you simply don't have by using go...
Don't get me wrong... I really like C# (not a fan of Java), but I wouldn't
consider using it for a lot of the places where Go or Rust are used very well.
Frankly, I'd just assume use node for any higher level stuff, Go for anything
node isn't a good enough fit for, and Rust for anything system (Ie
os/hardware) related.
------
jstewartmobile
Why I chose Go for a network application, in no particular order:
\- easy concurrency with CSP/channels
\- decent documentation
\- cgo makes it almost trivial to link to C dependencies
\- strong UTF-8 support, native distinction between bytes and "Runes"
\- multiple return values make it easy to deal with return values and error
codes in the same function instead of having to resort to a by-reference
parameter to capture one or the other
\- has a lot of the simplicity of C, with a lot less of the ambiguity
\- gets a lot of love from Google, substantial improvements in almost every
release
------
Dinius
Performance, easy concurrency, and because the language itself is very
"straightforward".
------
lox
It's incredible standard library is probably the thing that motivates me the
most. Beyond that, fast builds, good package availability, easy to compile for
multiple platforms and great community support.
------
nitwit005
There is probably more C# and Java tools than Go. There has been more time for
libraries to build up.
But to the general thrust of your question, because that's the problem Google
was trying to solve? The built in libraries make it quite easy to write
applications that speak HTTP/HTTPS in a reasonably scalable way.
Rust will probably be comparable in the future, but isn't quite there yet.
C/C++ remains a bit difficult, although it should become a lot easier if the
C++ networking TS makes it in.
------
herbst
C# lol. Anyway its fast and the library is made for the web it just fits
perfectly and even has many libs to extend existing applications in other
languages easily. Like making stuff in Go for rails apps just works
------
di4na
Because it seems like Java without having to deal with JVM.
Like Java, it is not a good choice... but people stick to what they know.
~~~
icedchai
I'm curious... what is a good choice?
~~~
di4na
Depends of your goal. For low level stuff : Rust.
For scripting systems that are simple to write, Python or Ruby are quite
great.
If you want some OO but better, Scala or OCaml are around for a long time and
deal with concurrency better.
If you really want concurrency and parallelism, Elixir/Erlang are there and
Pony is growing slowly.
They are all better than Go at what Go aim for, without the hurtful decisions.
And they are better supported on a wide amount of systems.
------
itamarst
Lots of technical choices are made based on cool-factor, not technical or
business merit, especially in startups. Go is often a perfectly reasonable
choice... but is often chosen for the wrong reasons.
~~~
gazarullz
Can you please elaborate and provide some context?
~~~
itamarst
You can read some of the comments here, e.g. "Java is probably very
widespread, but less popular from a publicity standpoint." Java is objectively
vastly more popular than Go (just do some Googling), and who cares about
publicity when writing code? It's about business results. I don't care what
language the website I'm using is written in, I want it to do what I want and
be fast and have good UX.
So translated into objective facts that statement is just "Go is cooler than
Java."
At DockerCon EU a couple years ago someone who worked in VC firm mentioned
that every startup they were talking to was choosing Go. Go is better than
Python in some cases, better than Java in others... but in many cases you
could just use Python or just use Java and it'd be just fine. Often Python is
better (much more libraries) or Java is better (much more libraries, and has
generics unlike Go's "let's reinvent all of Java 1.0's faults" design).
But Python and Java aren't _trendy_.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
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Israel Calls a Man a “Terrorist” Until They Realized He Was an Israeli Jew - 3eto
https://theintercept.com/2015/10/22/israel-calls-a-man-its-soldiers-killed-a-terrorist-until-they-realized-he-was-an-israeli-jew/
======
NumberSix
This is the definition of "terrorism" from the FBI web site:
[https://www.fbi.gov/about-
us/investigate/terrorism/terrorism...](https://www.fbi.gov/about-
us/investigate/terrorism/terrorism-definition)
Note that whether something is classified as terrorism depends on the intent
or purpose of the act, not the act, the number of people killed, weapons used,
or other measurable characteristics of the act. Thus a mentally ill person who
murders a large number of people as sacrifices to the great god Cthulhu would
not be classified as a terrorist because he lacks the political intent, even
though the actual crime might be identical in all other respects to the
actions of a "terrorist".
Incidentally, Glenn Greenwald is an attorney and surely well aware of the
legal definitions of terrorist.
Definitions of Terrorism in the U.S. Code
18 U.S.C. § 2331 defines "international terrorism" and "domestic terrorism"
for purposes of Chapter 113B of the Code, entitled "Terrorism”:
"International terrorism" means activities with the following three
characteristics:
Involve violent acts or acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law;
Appear to be intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
Occur primarily outside the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S., or transcend national boundaries in terms of the means by which they are accomplished, the persons they appear intended to intimidate or coerce, or the locale in which their perpetrators operate or seek asylum.*
"Domestic terrorism" means activities with the following three
characteristics:
Involve acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law;
Appear intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination. or kidnapping; and
Occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S.
18 U.S.C. § 2332b defines the term "federal crime of terrorism" as an offense
that:
Is calculated to influence or affect the conduct of government by intimidation or coercion, or to retaliate against government conduct; and
Is a violation of one of several listed statutes, including § 930(c) (relating to killing or attempted killing during an attack on a federal facility with a dangerous weapon); and § 1114 (relating to killing or attempted killing of officers and employees of the U.S.).
* FISA defines "international terrorism" in a nearly identical way, replacing "primarily" outside the U.S. with "totally" outside the U.S. 50 U.S.C. § 1801(c).
Some other definitions of terrorism from different sources:
[http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Terrorism/terror...](http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Terrorism/terrordef.html)
Note again that in nearly all definitions the political intent or purpose of
the act is critical.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Developer One-Ups Google with Google+ Comments for WordPress - bkerensa
http://benjaminkerensa.com/2013/04/23/developer-one-ups-google-with-google-comments-for-wordpress
======
ignostic
I am actually getting quite tired of having Twitter, Facebook, and now G+
connected comments. I don't like giving out those permissions. At the same
time, I'm getting tired of needing separate logins for Disqus, Livefyre, etc.
I comment less than I used to - I'm tired of setting up logins and giving up
privacy on every blog I visit.
Good on the developer, though...
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Google Is Turning Off the Works-with-Nest API - cek
https://nest.com/whats-happening/
======
gergles
> I’m a Works with Nest developer. Will I be able to access and control Nest
> devices moving forward?
> No. The Actions on Google Smart Home platform does not provide open API
> access to Nest devices, so it cannot be used to access and control Nest
> devices. Instead, managing and controlling Google Home, Nest, and thousands
> of third-party smart home devices is done through the Google Home app and
> the Google Assistant.
Wow, just wow. The entire non-Google Nest ecosystem evaporates overnight.
~~~
dotBen
Yup, they just did a Twitter.
I lived through the Twitter ecosystem collapse and now I'm a VC I worry about
investing in startups that are built on any large ecosystem where there isn't
an alignment of clear economic interest.
Google of all people doing this just made it tougher for everyone else to
maintain confidence in large vendor platforms.
~~~
TeMPOraL
Here's a note, straight from quotes file, I took around the original Twitter
fiasco, and have since reposted or mentioned on HN a few times on occasions
similar to this:
* Sovereign from Mass Effect on using someone else's technology:
"Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays, our
technology. By using it, your society develops along the paths we desire. We
impose order on the chaos of organic evolution. You exist because we allow it,
and you will end because we demand it." Strangely, it seems to describe recent
(2012/2013) situation with API of Twitter perfectly.
\--
Twitter did that _twice_ [0] already, but it's a lesson people have to learn
and relearn repeatedly: this is what happens when you build a business
entirely around someone else's platform.
\--
[0] -
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10427530](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10427530)
~~~
zimablue
[Spoiler alert, Hyperion series] That sounds totally lifted from the Hyperion
series, but maybe the idea is earlier than that, does anyone have a proposed
source for that idea that's earlier than 1989?
~~~
djsumdog
The writers were big Sci-Fi fans. The Asari were heavily influenced by the
Minbari of Babylon 5. There are lots of other callouts to classic Sci-Fi in
the series.
~~~
j03m1
That ending tho. Unforgivable.
~~~
XaoDaoCaoCao
I will always be mad about the ME3 ending. If reincarnation is something that
happens, my reincarnated self will be mad about the ME3 ending from birth.
What a godamn waste.
~~~
CaptainMarvel
As someone who never played the games but has a rough idea of story and
characters, what was wrong with the ending(s)?
~~~
ZeikJT
The endings didn't take into account any of the choices you'd made up until
that point. The endings were also a bit brief before the ending patch. I think
those were people's biggest complaints, I could be misremembering.
Highly recommend the trilogy! Great story, amazing characters, pretty great
gameplay (especially after #1), and overall an immersive journey. I wasn't
bothered at all by the ending, personally.
------
palebluedot
This seems to include all of us using them in open-source "hobbyist"
environments, like Home Assistant and Node-Red. I'm quite frustrated by this;
I'll never buy another Nest product again, and I now regret my purchase of the
Nest Thermostat.
All the rest of my IoT stuff is either open-source hardware/software, or at
the least local-only with known protocol interfaces. This was the one
exception I made for IoT "cloud", giving Google the benefit of the doubt. I
regret deeply giving them that benefit now.
~~~
ocdtrekkie
The month Google originally bought Nest, I sold my thermostat to someone else
and picked up an Insteon thermostat instead. My Insteon thermostat's been a
reliable partner since, and doesn't send my data to anyone. I actually turned
a profit on it, since I got rebate credit from my electric company originally
for buying it.
~~~
dehrmann
My gripe is the design is nowhere near as good. It's like going from an iPhone
to a feature phone.
I wish there were an open-source Nest firmware, or at least an open-source
backend. Google doesn't need to know when I'm home.
~~~
telltruth
Nest is actually _far_ from great thermostate, definitely not "iPhone" of
thermostate. It doesn't allow lots of manual settings and it doesn't handle
anything more than simple systems well. There is lot of marketing that is
blinding but not much substance. You should check out thermostats like Ecobee
instead.
~~~
cptskippy
Specifics? It does everything a basic programmable thermostat does in a
simpler interface.
------
bryanrasmussen
EU law (because the EU seems to be the only one willing to make these big laws
inconveniencing tech) - any IOT enabled product that has the IOT capabilities
removed by closing of a service without a simple way for those capabilities to
be re-enabled (simple being further clarified in law) can be returned for a
full purchase refund up to 3 months after closing of the service.
~~~
tpxl
IIRC there is a law where you can return items for a full refund or exchange
if the product was "not fit for purpose", which includes shenanigans like
these.
~~~
bpfrh
There is a law you can return anything brought online without giving any
reason for 14 days, I don't think there is a law which applies here?
~~~
NeedMoreTea
At least in the UK there are the concepts of "fit for purpose" (and of
merchantable quality) and "reasonable expected life". Now I doubt there's yet
been much chance to evolve what a reasonable life of a smart thermostat or
associated devices are, but crucially liability is with the retailer. It's on
them to prove they are not liable. If they then want to chase the
manufacturer, that's separate. It probably pays not to buy direct from
manufacturer.
A retailer can be busy ducking all their legal obligations and telling you
that you're long past the window of refund, but mention the provisions of the
Sale of Goods Act and you usually get a very different response, or a manager
is called over (to authorise the inevitable refund). The Sale of Goods Act is
still law (Well, parts of it), and the newer EU Consumer Rights Act is in
force as well. Good job too, the Sale of Goods Act is stronger in several
areas, whilst the EU gave us 2 year warranty.
There is case law where things have been judged to be within reasonable
expected life, and a repair, refund or compensation ordered long after the
mandatory warranty ran out.
------
URSpider94
For those who see this as Google turning off an unused service: no, just no.
This is Google cutting off a massive interop ecosystem to try to parlay the
success of Nest into higher adoption of Google Home. That’s vastly different
than shutting down G+, Wave, Orkut, Reader, etc.
It would be as if they announced tomorrow that the only way to read GMail is
in Chrome browser or on an Android phone.
~~~
masklinn
> For those who see this as Google turning off an unused service: no, just no.
> This is Google cutting off a massive interop ecosystem to try to parlay the
> success of Nest into higher adoption of Google Home. That’s vastly different
> than shutting down G+, Wave, Orkut, Reader, etc.
It's exactly the same as previous shutdowns, it's just that you didn't
personally care about previous shutdowns and couldn't be arsed to emphasise or
learn the lesson that google can not be trusted to keep services alive.
The sharp folks are those like ocdtrekkie upthread who shed their nest
immediately upon learning of the acquisition.
~~~
Angostura
Since you claim its exactly the same as previous shutdowns listed; when Google
shut down Wave, which paid for Google product were they aiming to increase
adoption of?
~~~
dopamean
my memory of wave is that it barely even launched. wasn't it around less than
a year? did anyone actually use it?
~~~
otakucode
My group of friends tried to. It could have been quite successful, since it
basically offered what Discord is now.
~~~
rtkwe
How? I guess you could use it like a chat room just putting new messages at
the bottom of the document but seems like a crazy kludge to use Wave as a
chat.
~~~
otakucode
I thought that was its intended primary purpose. We could chat and inline
media, pictures, etc. It was a big upgrade from IRC. There were issues with
sharing files larger than just images and whatnot, but it easily could have
been polished a bit into something better. If Discord added the ability to
have 'threads', it would basically be what we used Wave for. For a few weeks
anyway until Google decided it wasn't catching on enough or whatever
justification they gave for giving up on it.
~~~
rtkwe
I don't think I ever heard of it being pitched that way just as a
collaborative editing room for editing an actual document not just for using
the comments etc as a chat.
------
mc32
I used to be a fan of Google. They were the good ones, the open ones. Ha! I’ve
feel like they played the long sucker game. How times have changed. Even
Android feels like a ruse. And Chrome. And maps.
The last thing will be search. At some point it’ll be curated for my own good.
To be fair, Everyone has to make a living, but be honest don’t take people for
suckers of make them into suckers.
~~~
mcv
I agree. I used to be a fan. They were explicitly not evil, gave lots of open
source stuff away for free, made lots of other free services.
Turns out they were just making us dependent on them, and now that they've got
us, they do whatever they want. We need to make ourselves less dependent on
Google. Move away from GMail, use Firefox, DuckDuckGo, OSM, federated social
networks, etc. I don't have a good replacement for Android yet, as iOS is just
another walled garden. Similarly, Facebook is no replacement for Google+. We
need stuff to be opener, not dependent on another company. For email, you need
to own your own domain, so you can easily move from one provider to another.
~~~
tiredyam
god I tried. DuckDuckGo just does not work as well as it needs to. It gets
touted as a turn key google search replacement but it’s simply not. 4 times
today, I searched 5+ different ways for something after poor results, each
thing took one search to find on google. Granted, maybe I am just more
familiar with how to get the most out of googles search, maybe it has such a
vast profile on me that it understands what I want i am looking for. Either
way, i am pretty close to caving and it’s sad
~~~
m0nty
You can use the !SP operator before your DDG search to invoke StartPage, which
uses Google results. I mean, it's the same thing, just it doesn't look like
you're using Google search ;)
~~~
npongratz
Even better, with same results: use !s as a token anywhere in your search
string :)
------
leshokunin
What's the point of creating an ecosystem if you won't support it? Typical
Google. I understand shutting down or refocusing services that don't work. But
decisions like this or to shut down Inbox make no sense to me. It feels like
complete disregard of the user base.
~~~
specialp
Google has done this again and again with their APIs and services other than
their main search and advertising business. For me as a developer Google has a
bad name now and I'd never invest my time developing something in their
ecosystem or worse have my business depend on it. They do not care about their
user base as is shown even when they shut down paid services. Which is why
even with all their promises about Google Cloud I still don't trust it. When
one says that about Google Cloud you get this immune response that it is
different, but it is prefixed with Google which is a bad name when it comes to
keeping third party services or APIs up paid or unpaid.
~~~
PascLeRasc
I've been a Google apologist for most of my HN career, but shutting down Inbox
really changed my view. Regular old GMail sucks compared to Inbox, especially
the mobile app. I miss the Inbox app and its layout and recognition of
important emails so much that I don't feel like I can get attached to anything
else they make.
~~~
Aeolun
I’d long been thinking about it, but this shutdown is what triggered me
completely moving away from Google.
------
HillRat
So now all Nest accounts have to go through Google. Can’t wait for the first
time some Android developer gets their Google account locked and suddenly
can’t change the temperature on their HVAC unit.
~~~
dawnerd
Or that people using Gsuite wont be able to perform certain actions because
... reasons? My Google home hub is still pretty useless since they don't allow
some features.
------
richev
So my Nest app[1] that has 1800+ registered users will stop working in August.
:'(
[1] [https://richev.me/nest](https://richev.me/nest)
~~~
pugworthy
Look not to be blunt, but 1800 users? Why should they care?
I'm being a devils advocate, but ... if you were at Google and a person making
large business decisions, why would you care about 1800 users?
~~~
sdinsn
Because having an open API fosters a community of applications that is free
marketing and free development for your product.
Nest products are expensive, those 1800 users may equate to a few hundred
thousand in revenue for Google, who may instead buy a competitor for their
next purchase.
------
bhhaskin
Wait, so people that bought other devices that "Works with Nest" will no
longer work with Nest?
~~~
floatingatoll
Correct:
[https://nest.com/whats-happening/#im-a-works-with-nest-
devel...](https://nest.com/whats-happening/#im-a-works-with-nest-developer-
will-my-solution-still-be-able-to-access-and-control-nest-devices)
~~~
bhhaskin
Another reminder to never buy a "smart" device. At the end of the day they are
pretty dumb.
~~~
gordon_freeman
I have Wemo smart plugs that I have plugged in all sorts of stuff like Heater,
Lamps, and TV, etc connected to my Google Home and Home Mini. And I'd advise
anyone to think twice before buying smart plugs or smart devices. There are so
many bugs creating so many complications that I feel they are not worth using.
You'd need to reconnect them with WEMO app time and again, restart these
frequently if they just stop working and even you would not know what to do
with them when a failed firmware upgrade will make your smart plug useless!
~~~
josteink
> And I'd advise anyone to think twice before buying smart plugs or smart
> devices.
Not all smart devices are created alike. Research your purchases.
So far the one I’ve been most happy with is IKEA Trådfri.
It costs roughly half of the comparable Phillips hue offering, but still
delivers on any aspect I care about.
Works 100% locally, uses standard Zigbee (non-WiFi) networking. No cloud
required.
Supports HomeKit, Alexa, google assistant, not to mention Home Assistant.
More importantly, it supports other vendor’s Zigbee devices (like Hue) and
supports working with other Zigbee controllers than IKEA’s own.
Also certified non-shit by kernel-hacker Matthew Garret[1].
Nobody can shut me out of this purchase. This _is_ actually my hardware.
[1]
[https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/47803.html](https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/47803.html)
~~~
vincnetas
I have also voted with my money for IKEA Trådfri and am quite happy with it.
Light bulbs, motion sensors, remote controls. Everything connected to zigbee
coordinator and controlled with simple node red flows. And good thing is that
list of supported devices is longer than any other single vendor with option
to expand it by your self.
Baby starts moving in bedroom, light bulb flashes in kitchen.
Sonos stopped supporting remote control, no problem, map IKEA remote
controller to start/stop Sonos playback.
[https://nodered.org](https://nodered.org)
[https://www.zigbee2mqtt.io](https://www.zigbee2mqtt.io)
[https://www.zigbee2mqtt.io/information/supported_devices.htm...](https://www.zigbee2mqtt.io/information/supported_devices.html)
[https://www.ikea.com/gb/en/products/lighting/smart-
lighting/](https://www.ikea.com/gb/en/products/lighting/smart-lighting/)
------
w0mbat
Very confusing headline should be:
Google Is Turning Off the "Works with Nest" API
~~~
marquis-chacha
It's a "garden path sentence", but not in the fun way.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden-
path_sentence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden-path_sentence)
------
electrograv
I see Google API/ecosystem fans often defending or dismissing Google’s pattern
of behavior here, using arguments like this:
_“Well, sure, they shut down that API I don’t use — big deal; all things come
to an end eventually! But, they’d NEVER do that to this API I rely on — that
would be so horrible, Google just would not do it!”_
I hope we all can acknowledge that this argument is on perpetually eroding
ground, at the very least.
~~~
DivisionSol
I've been considering pasting this:
[https://killedbygoogle.com/](https://killedbygoogle.com/) every time the
argument comes up. Maybe Google proponents will make one for other companies
notorious for killing services, but at least for now, the Google Graveyard
grows.
~~~
cortesoft
I don't quite get what people expect... do they think that once google creates
something, they are obligated to continue it indefinitely? That seems like an
unreasonable expectation.
~~~
mikeash
We expect web services to go away eventually. We expect physical products to
keep working until they physically break. The problem is when companies sell
physical products with a web service as a fundamental part of the product.
Companies want to treat the web service like any other web service, while
their customers reasonably expect their physical product to act like any other
physical product.
Edit: I want to add that this is a really easy problem to solve. Support or
create an open standard for the communication between the device and the
server. Allow the device to be reconfigured to communicate with other servers.
Then you can shut down your service and owners can keep on going. Better yet,
make it so that our device can communicate on the LAN without needing a server
at all. These problems exist not because they’re some inevitable fact of life,
but because these companies see more value in not fixing them.
~~~
Joky
Are the physical devices not working after this change, or rather some of the
applications developed for these devices need to switch to another API?
~~~
toomuchtodo
There is no other API to switch to, as Google controls the protocol, no open
standard exists to replicate the Nest API server, and Nest devices don’t
support targeting a self hosted API.
If you as a user or third party provider integrated with this API and rely on
it for functionality, you have no alternative nor recourse.
~~~
Joky
Isn't "Works with Google Assistant" supposed to become the replacement API? It
seems like they don't offer direct access to the data or the device but plan
to allow "some" level of control? (I don't know the space, apologize if my
questions are naive...)
> As a Works with Nest developer and partner, you will not be able to access
> or control Nest devices once the Works with Nest APIs are turned off on
> August 31, 2019. Moving forward, our team will focus on making Works with
> Google Assistant the most helpful and intelligent ecosystem for the home,
> enabling all of the products in your users’ homes to work together. We
> encourage all smart home developers to visit the Actions on Google Smart
> Home developer site to learn how to integrate your devices or services with
> the Google Assistant.
------
jasonhansel
Honestly, I think that IoT manufacturers should be required to provide open
APIs. Preventing third-party developers from interfacing with smart devices,
especially after they've already been sold to consumers, seems dangerously
monopolistic.
~~~
jasonhansel
To be clear: I want a _legal_ requirement. Like any industry that has vastly
expanded in power and societal influence, the tech industry may ultimately
need to be regulated for the greater good.
------
krosaen
> One developer platform. We want to unify our efforts around third-party
> connected home devices under a single developer platform – a one-stop shop
> for both our developers and our customers to build a more helpful home. To
> accomplish this, we’ll be winding down Works with Nest on August 31, 2019,
> and delivering a single unified experience through the Works with Google
> Assistant program.
> One set of privacy commitments. As Nest redefines technology in the home,
> there’s an opportunity to explain clearly and simply how our connected home
> devices and services work, and how we will respect your privacy. Learn more
> about Google’s commitment to privacy in the home.
and at least a preliminary perusal of the google home apps seems to indicate
control of nest works:
[https://assistant.google.com/explore/c/19/?jsmode=du&hl=en_U...](https://assistant.google.com/explore/c/19/?jsmode=du&hl=en_US&utm_campaign=GS102472&utm_source=external&utm_medium=email_service&utm_content=workswithgoogleassistant)
so while grumpiness about this consolidation and need to migrate / have a
google account (instead of nest account) seems warranted, this doesn't feel
like the same thing as "pulling a twitter" or a conspiracy to bait and switch
developers.
if it turns out you won't be able to actually control the nest in the same
way, I'll go get my pitchfork and join y'all, but I'm cautiously waiting to
see how this turns out.
~~~
adjkant
Read upthread, but lots of control appears to be lost - some estimated 90% of
programatic control. Grab your pitchfork :)
------
GiorgioG
Man, Google is the new Microsoft of the 90s. Fuck them. I have 3 Nest
thermostats (bought prior to the Nest acquisition.)
~~~
Rexxar
No. There is a lot of reasons to criticize Microsoft but they keep their
services/apis alive longer than any other company.
~~~
telltruth
Correct. If you had bought Windows Phone, it still works today. It's
unbelievable that they have kept the whole thing running for may be 10,000
people out there.
~~~
omgtehlion
Unfortunately not anymore. You cannot reset your device or add new apps if it
is not supporting w10 mobile anymore.
Hopefully most wp8 devices can be upgraded but I would not depend on that for
long...
------
jonstewart
I bought two Nest thermostats this winter because they worked with only R-W
wires. I turned off the learning feature, as it was useless for my house with
its combination of passive solar and radiant heat. However, the API is/was
quite simple and I was looking forward to writing my own controller.
Still, I had this nagging feeling that I shouldn’t have bought them. Thanks
for confirming my anxieties, Google! I can’t trust you, but I at least can
trust you to be you.
~~~
Marsymars
> I bought two Nest thermostats this winter because they worked with only R-W
> wires.
FWIW, I've got a gas fireplace with no C wire that I added a 120V->24V AC
adapter and a Fast-STAT common maker to for <$100 to wire my Ecobee thermostat
without needing to alter any in-wall wiring.
------
ljoshua
So let's talk alternatives. EcoBee? Honeywell?
What's the suggested alternate device and route for those of us that like a
little control, like having other services that can integrate, and don't want
to be yanked around by shutdowns?
~~~
mikestew
EcoBee is what I bought when the writing was on the wall with Nest. Works with
HomeKit, so EcoBee could go under tomorrow and Apple stuff can still talk to
it. Or if an open solution is more to your liking, works with Home Assistant,
too, though it goes through the API to work.
------
eyeareque
How soon until google gets sued for the bait and switch? This reminds me of
the Sony PlayStation Linux lawsuit: [https://segmentnext.com/2016/06/21/sony-
linux-lawsuit-ends-s...](https://segmentnext.com/2016/06/21/sony-linux-
lawsuit-ends-sony-will-pay-millions-gamers/)
~~~
conradfr
Realistically is there any lawsuit that can make any dent in Google's profits?
~~~
jeltz
While they are not civil lawsuits, EU's anti-competition fines certainly can
make a dent in any company's profits since they are based on a percentage of
global turnover.
~~~
perlgeek
Same with GDPR fines
------
herf
Anyone know if Alexa is their biggest Nest API client?
That's one way to shut out Amazon.
~~~
URSpider94
Yeah, that is the most likely explanation. Everyone else is just collateral
damage.
------
mherdeg
Hey, so how do I graph the temperature of my house at each temperature sensor
over time?
I knew how to do that with the Nest API (see e.g.
[https://github.com/peterot/nest-graph](https://github.com/peterot/nest-graph)
or
[https://github.com/nbrownus/nestflux](https://github.com/nbrownus/nestflux)
). These data provide some useful information about energy expenditure in the
house, a little better than the Nest "schedule" view of daily heating/cooling
activity and daily temperature settings.
Will this still be possible with the new indirect Google Assistant API
integration they are describing? How?
~~~
pugworthy
Lots of little tiny cheap ESP8266 based systems with DS18S20 temp sensors all
over your house, telling you far more than just a single Nest thermostat could
tell you.
Look into low power sleep modes, so that it can run for a very long time,
waking up at some interval to take a quick temperature measurement, report it,
then go back to sleep. While you're at it, have it confirm its battery level
and report that too if the battery is low.
------
inlined
Does any attorney want to speculate whether Google could be forced to accept
returns on Nest devices now that they’re materially worse through intentional
actions?
~~~
glogla
They could, but then they would delete your Gmail and permanently ban you from
their services, probably.
~~~
inlined
Retaliation seems unwise as well
------
apocalyptic0n3
IFTTT sent out an email about an hour ago warning of the pending shutdown of
their integration.
------
danols
If you build a business around a Google CONSUMER device/service/api/whatever
at this stage you are a fool.
------
orcthwy012
It's interesting to see the responses to this article and contrast with the
responses to the article regarding Facebook's possible 5B fine. I don't know
the motivation behind this decision but I can't help but see the two sides of
the same coin.
If we decide as a society that third-party apps misusing the platform in a way
that hurts the users or otherwise looks bad to the outside world is the
platform's fault, even if this was done with the user's consent (which the app
that harvested data for Cambridge Analytica had) and furthermore decide that
such conduct deserves a disproportionate fine (which 5B is, given that much
larger breaches without any consent have generally gone unpunished) because
the platform as a whole is owned by a large successful company, we cannot also
expect large tech companies to keep supporting open platforms that allow
third-parties to thrive. The economic benefits of giving control to the user
are fairly marginal and theoretical, while the risks are extremely large and
potentially existential.
I'm not intimately familiar with this particular API, but it's almost certain
that it can be abused by third party apps in a way that makes look Google bad.
Platform openness has its advocates and detractors at every company. In light
of what's going on, it would be hard for the advocates to win any argument.
~~~
CaptainZapp
_which the app that harvested data for Cambridge Analytica had_
This is just part of the picture and almost revisionist in its briefness.
Sure, they had "permission" from the user, which took that "personality-test"
to harvest their data.
Who sure as shit did not agree to have their data harvested were the friends
of those who took the test and whoms data was harvested and resold with
applomb and abandon.
Leaving this part out of your statement makes this statement a lie by
omission.
~~~
makomk
The thing is, that's clearly not what most people actually object to about
Cambridge Analytica. I mean, the same is even more true of Obama's 2012
campaign, which went so far as to harvest their supporters' friends' posting
activity to assess how best to get those friends to vote Obama, and yet nearly
all of the people who loudly decried Cambridge Analytica used this same bogus
consent argument to justify why the Obama campaign's actions were OK.
~~~
CaptainZapp
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism)
------
amanzi
If a developer has gone to the effort to integrate their solution with Nest,
I'd be very surprised if they don't get their solution integrated with Google
Assistant, and Apple HomeKit too while they're at it. So I assume that when
end-users switch over their Nest devices to the Google Assistant platform,
their existing Nest integrations will be available on the Google Assistant
platform too. Doesn't appear to be as doom and gloom as most other commenters
here are predicting.
~~~
Klathmon
I believe the kind of Google Assistant integration you would need to replicate
this kind of access is impossible in publicly available APIs currently.
Google has much more integration capabilities, but they seem to be this far
"invite only", you can't request it.
~~~
saulrh
So... The functionality exists and is currently in testing, it's only just
become stable enough that we're hearing about it, and they're notifying
developers targeting the current service as far ahead of time as possible? I
mean, it won't do anything for stuff that's too crappy to take software
updates, but that's an entirely different matter.
Edit: Finally went and read the announcement. They're really not giving people
much time, are they? Nevermind, three months is pretty bad.
~~~
IshKebab
No, this isn't a case of moving functionality from Nest to Google. They've
_removed_ the Nest API ("set the temperature", "set to away", "what's the
temperature?"). They say "move to Google Assistant" but Google Assistant
doesn't let you do that.
Also - I could sort of understand it if they provided a proper IFTTT style
system in Google Home but they don't. All you can do is trigger actions based
on a custom voice command or a time.
------
Causality1
If you're even slightly surprised by this you weren't paying attention when
Google bought the Revolv smart home ecosystem then took it out back and shot
it. All the customers got when their expensive smart home devices shut down
was a "Thanks for playing, here's a coupon for saving when you buy a Nest
because we just turned off all your shit".
Google is a company with severe ADHD. Consumers expect home appliances to
operate for decades. That is not a good mixture. If the whole "internet of
things" trend dies out and people stop buying, you bet your ass Google will
happily shut Nest's servers down and leave every single one of their customers
out in the cold. They've already done it.
I've got friends with home automation systems from the early 80s. They work
flawlessly. You think any service or device Google sells will be functioning
in twenty years? Thirty?
Call me when IBM is offering a smart hub.
~~~
fooey
When Lowes shut down their IRIS system, they actually sent out checks
refunding every cent all of their customers had paid out into their hardware.
I was completely shocked
I haven't found a replacement for them yet, but I'm incredibly wary of
investing into _any_ ecosystem these days.
~~~
Causality1
I'll trust a smart outlet to cut my AC on for me. I'll even trust a wi-fi
security camera aimed at my front yard. However, my corpse will be in the
cold, cold ground before I hook a door or an oven up to the internet.
------
Phlarp
Hey, at least they are going to roll "Nest" accounts into "Google" accounts so
hopefully the app can stop asking me to set up sms based 2fa everytime I try
to change the temp.
All that employee stock from the acquisition must be finished vesting.
~~~
shereadsthenews
Yeah, I welcome this change. Nest's account management is garbage. It alerts
me when a smoke alarm fires, but then it asks me to login, as if I have any
idea what the password is.
------
dreamcompiler
Nest screwed the pooch with me before Google bought them by changing their UI
and temporarily bricking my thermostat with unwanted firmware updates. (My
Nest still works as a dumb thermostat but I'll never let it talk to the
Internet again.)
When Google bought them I knew Nest would only get worse, and here we are.
------
tw04
Can't wait for them to tell me that Google Apps accounts aren't supported so
I'll lose all access to my Nest devices... if that happens I'll be removing
all of my Nest devices and selling my Google Home.
I'm _SO SICK_ of them acting like there needs to be a firewall between google
apps accounts and _everything else_.
~~~
glitch003
Well, Google Apps accounts are for businesses, so it makes sense that they
wouldn't work like a personal account.
~~~
codebook
Well, it was firstly advertised as free account with custom domain. I was one
of many who created the account. and keep frustrating and maintaining another
@gmail.com account for this reason.
------
jredwards
Literally bought a nest thermostat yesterday. Glad it's still in the box.
Wondering what the best alternative is now.
~~~
reificator
Hadn't set mine up yet, but I did take it out of the box. Time to pack it back
up and return it.
~~~
rs23296008n1
Defective by design.
------
inlined
Just to be clear: is this confirmed to mean that Alexa will no longer
integrate with Nest?
------
awestley
I guess all my nest stuff is going ebay... Too bad.
~~~
quickthrower2
Sell to the greater fool?
~~~
awestley
I'm going to try!
~~~
quickthrower2
On a serious note I hope someone can buy it and hack it to work with some API,
otherwise it's more landfill.
------
imglorp
Another entry for [https://killedbygoogle.com/](https://killedbygoogle.com/)
------
sexyflanders
Looking forward to when google turns off their corporate headquarters.
------
pugworthy
If you're looking for a replacement, try starting here...
[https://www.hackster.io/projects/tags/thermostat](https://www.hackster.io/projects/tags/thermostat)
Plenty of people have worked on open source / open hardware thermostat
systems. Take your anger at this and apply it to them.
~~~
cwarrior
ecobee
------
joenathanone
Can I return my Nest for a refund? This is so stupid.
~~~
McDev
I contacted one of their support guys, eventually I was put through to a
senior agent. After I quoted a bunch of consumer laws (at least here in the
UK) he was adamant that their terms of services lets them change features as
they wish so legal action is definitely going to be the only way forward.
From the follow up email: "Any product feature can be changed at Nests
discretion under the terms terms of service. It is for this reason that I
cannot refund the cost of your thermostat."
------
ajmurmann
Just yesterday I started to look into building a tiny app that checks if the
temperature in my two rooms that have a Nest is too hot or cold in one and OK
in the other and just turn the fan on instead of heat/AC. And here we go...I
guess I am not making that dumb "smart thermostat" ant smarter.
------
mherdeg
Does the Nest thermostat product still have an active firmware / hardware /
software team?
It feels like various features have been kind of frozen in place for the past
few years.
------
jimktrains2
This is why we need to be pushing for devices that use open protocols at the
very least. (Ideally they'd be fully open devices.)
It saddens me to see people buy into IoT and not think about the vendor lock-
in or data exfiltration. The thing is, there really aren't any alternatives.
~~~
Andrex
At the very _least,_ the fact that the upcoming Nest Hub Max supports Thread
is a (small) step in the right direction.
~~~
jimktrains2
What is thread? That's a very unsearchable term.
~~~
vincnetas
Protocol invented by google :)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thread_(network_protocol)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thread_\(network_protocol\))
~~~
Andrex
But crucially, has support from Samsung, ARM holdings, Qualcomm and, now, even
Apple.
------
ars
This makes it seem like you would have to use the "Works with Google
Assistant" API's instead? i.e. rather than completely not available, there's a
new platform?
Don't know about either API to know if that's the case, but it's what the page
implies?
~~~
cthalupa
It's a significantly smaller subset of APIs leaving you with far less control.
------
diogenescynic
Honestly, this is so Google. They consistently abandon products and leave
their customers hanging. I’ll never buy another product from them.
This is a huge win for Amazon. Ring will get more customers and Nest will be
abandoned.
------
4rt
headline should be "that $300 doorbell is now a paperweight".
in the future it will be "that $8000 trunk car driving computer is now a
paperweight".
~~~
pugworthy
Pretty much straight up FUD. This is not bricking Nest devices.
~~~
Aeolun
Ok, more like “That remotely controlled car with integrated taxi service you
bought?”
Well, now it’s “Just a car”
------
KukicAdnan
Google decides to unify APIs under a single IoT brand, thus shutting down
redundant APIs. Google bad.
Google maintaining multiple APIs that essentially do the same thing. Google
bad.
People are going to complain either way. I welcome this change personally and
think it makes perfect business sense. I can't think of any Works with Nest
that I have integrated in my home that's not already connected to my Google
Home, so I don't really see this impacting many negatively.
~~~
welly
Given the comments in this post, I think people disagree with you.
Not sure how you came to the conclusion that because you can't think of any
integrations you personally use that it won't affect others.
------
est
Some years later: Google shuts down Nest.
------
deg4uss3r
Anyone want to buy a nest? It came with the home and I'd rather use it as a
hockey puck than a thermostat/spy.
~~~
justwalt
That’s quite the sales pitch.
------
BadJo0Jo0
While I'm frustrated at this, I'm wondering if what I'm feeling is a knee-jerk
reaction.
I wonder how the Actions on Google Smart Homes integration works.
Will I still be able to control my Nest thermostats from Google Smart Home
Actions? This seems to be mentioned, but it's unclear what I'm able to do and
how.
------
marapuru
I wonder how big the "Works-with-Nest" ecosystem actually is. With that I
don't mean the _potential_ size, but the actual size in terms of usage.
Does anyone have a bit of insight in that? Maybe that could give more insight
in the reasoning of Google to shut it down.
------
jsilence
Yet another reason why we need protocols and not APIs.
------
mcintyre1994
It seems weird they're announcing this during I/O - you'd think they'd avoid
telling developers that their platforms sometimes shut down with 3 months
notice and with no replacement provided when everyone's paying attention.
------
qubex
I went through the elaborate motions of setting up HomeBridge to make my pre-
HomeKit Nest ecosystem inter operate with my Apple devices. Now they’ve gone
and trashed it. I guess I’ll just replace all their devices and Google can go
to hell.
------
qaq
So the only huge company not royally screwing over their dev ecosystem is MS?
------
sundvor
I read on The Verge that the Nest cameras will have their operating lights
hardcoded to ON.
They cite pervy privacy reasons, but bad luck for anyone using it as a baby
monitor, through a glass window, etc.
------
stronglikedan
The worst part is that Google Home is a complete shit-show so far. I
constantly have to redo device setups for dvices that randomly disappear,
recreate groups that lose one or more (and sometimes _all_ ) devices, and
physically reset devices that randomly disconnect from wifi. It's been a
terrible experience so far. I'd get rid of it completely if Alexa would let me
like songs on Spotify, but that's another conversation altogether.
------
systemBuilder
I am turning off my future purchases of Google Nest products.
~~~
pugworthy
Why exactly? How does this decision impact you personally?
~~~
johnwheeler
You keep repeating this in your comments like a broken record. What do _you_
care that people care? People obviously do care or they wouldn’t be voicing on
HN? Why does that bother you so much?
~~~
pugworthy
Because I believe many of the responses are irrational, and not expressing
what the actual underlying feelings are of the commenters.
People are upset that there is a reduction in the openness of things, which I
understand. People are upset that their personal projects and home hacks will
stop working, which I understand.
They should just state that though, and not the "That's it I'm never buying
Nest again" type of angry response.
If you want to hack your home, there are many open source alternatives.
~~~
parrellel
If you're dumping 2-3 hundred dollars on a thermostat, and suddenly it starts
losing functionality, not buying another one makes a bit of sense.
Or, relatedly, do you think all those labs that bought PS3's for their ability
to act as Linux clusters were wrong to sue the hell out of Sony?
------
la_barba
I understand everyone wants to dump on Google here, but Nest labs is the
company that made the API, not Google, and AFAIK they never turned a profit.
So as far as "promises" go, Google didn't really make a promise to anyone
w.r.t the API FWICT. Google has shuttered their own products plenty, but when
you purchase a loss-making company you're going to want to streamline
everything, so you can make your money back.
------
michrassena
I wonder if it's time to re-evaluate the concept of "not invented here".
Services that exist at another company's pleasure aren't a platform to build a
business on. This is effectively a type a single sourcing. There are no
contractual obligations to you on the part of the service provider, and
tremendous leverage to undermine you if you ever get big enough to get
noticed.
------
pugworthy
How many things use that API?
~~~
hello_asdf
I do. I have a command line nest app that I use to control my temperature.
~~~
pugworthy
So a personal project then, not a commercial one. My guess is they just lost a
new customer with you.
The root of my question though is this: Is most API use a hobby thing, or a
professional thing businesses are build around?
My assumption here is that the financial impact is trivial for them. They
aren't Valve ending Half-Life modding for example. If that's not a clear
analogy, Valve's enabling of modding for Half-Life enabled Counter Strike,
which basically kept Valve alive so they could become what they are now.
~~~
epc
Nest's income/expense is likely a rounding error on the Google balance sheet.
Killing off the Nest developer ecosystem is a choice, not driven by any
economics.
I have eight Nest thermostats across two homes, and a pile of Nest cameras. My
"hobbyist" use of the APIs collects and aggregates some of the data together
since the Nest UI (web or mobile) is lousy at best. Given that Google Home /
Google Assistant do not work* with my G Suite account, I'm not at all
confident about continuing to use Nest equipment after the grand changeover to
Google Home Assistant Whatever in August.
* By "do not work" I mean: You log in to a Google Home device with a G Suite account and it (the device) cannot be shared with any other accounts, and it cannot access any of your data like your calendar. Oddly Alexa has no difficulties accessing my G Suite calendar.
------
raverbashing
So "Works with Nest" is the G version of "Plays For Sure"?
Funny how the more assertive the name the more likely it is to be dumped
------
hawski
I thought about buying a thermostat for my district heating radiators. But for
the time being I just manage with a cheap thermometer and regulating the
radiator manually, because they already have a crude thermostat. It works
quite good, because weather is not changing as fast day to day and heating
season is not very long.
Many times more technology equals more nuisance.
------
asaph
Will the Nest Alexa skill still continue to work?
~~~
IshKebab
I don't see how it could.
Edit: actually the Nest skill seems to be provided by Nest, not Amazon. So as
long as they don't remove it it should keep working.
------
lgleason
It really feels like Google is starting to be forced to actually make money on
things or get rid of them. With Nest that means sell more of their products
and ecosystem instead of supporting everybody else...given last quarter's
numbers etc. it looks like they may need to begin to focus on that, especially
if the ad revenues continue to go down.
------
wil421
Just bought a home this year and I am so glad I went with Ecobee and Ubiquiti
Unifi cameras.
If your model is a subscription service I don’t want your product. Especially
if they are acquired by Google. Google has acquired and killed (or killed
their own products) more products than almost any company I use.
I don’t even want Alexa so I just turn it off.
------
ondrae
How can I return all my Nest products in the United States? Any EU-like laws
apply here?
------
thefounder
Welcome to the "cloud" world! Google is pretty "windy" these days.
~~~
crankylinuxuser
ThanosWare
At a click of a finger, half the features disappear!
------
iask
And there went my love for Nest. I’ve been one of the earliest adopters...love
the product. After they got acquired by Google I’ve been expecting this,
however, not so soon.
Time to start looking into an alternative - suggestions anyone?
------
CriticalCathed
I was just about to upgrade my home with Nest products. The other alternative
I was looking into looks much more attractive now.
I wonder if this was about money, control, or developer resources? What's the
upshot for them?
------
ummonk
This sort of thing by Google (along with dropping many beloved consumer
products) has become such a regular occurrence that I wonder how much it has
impacted the tepid adoption of Google Cloud by developers.
------
poorman
It will be interesting to see if some open source firmware comes out of this.
I wonder if we will see people "jailbreaking" their IoT devices to work with
more open/collaborative marketplaces.
------
slifin
:clap: :clap: Don't make breaking changes in public things :clap: :clap:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyLBGkS5ICk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyLBGkS5ICk)
------
pgt
I don’t want to work at a place where my projects will get shut down.
------
jonahhorowitz
Does anyone know of a good replacement for the Nest Protect Smoke Alarms? Lots
of recs for ecobee and insteon for thermostats, but I'd love a smoke detector
recommendation.
------
taneq
Google doesn't care about individual people.
Scale is fun! >.>
------
csixty4
Does this mean Alexa won't be able to control my thermostat anymore? What a
crappy way to get me to switch to their ecosystem.
------
andrewtbham
Anyone know a good replacement for a nest cam?
~~~
lwhalen
Ubiquiti is great. They make cloud integration easy if you want it, or self
hosted as well.
~~~
cthalupa
I have thousands of dollars of Ubiquiti gear in my house, but I opted for Ring
cameras instead.
Primarily because, even though I have plenty of storage space for an NVR, I
don't want to rely on thieves not stealing the thing if they break in, thus
leaving me with no footage. It would be easy enough to constantly back the
data up to a different location, I suppose, but not something I wanted to
bother with.
They also integrate pretty well with the Ring alarm system, and the $10/mo I
pay for monitoring alarm service for burglary and smoke/co2 detectors I have
also covers the storage cost for multiple cameras, etc.
I just picked up a smart lock that will supposedly get additional integration
later this year, and be able to disarm the alarm system automatically when
it's unlocked. (This functionality already exists for some other smart lock
options)
------
crottypeter
Reminds me of when nest 'bricked' revolv devices and migrated the users to
nest.
I am sticking with a non-IOT thermostat.
------
caterama
Disclaimer: I own no Smart Home devices.
Under the FAQ, I was not able to find an entry like "Will I be able to reach a
human about my Nest devices / services?". That's a bit scary. Not sure if that
was possible before though. But, considering the occasional horror story of
what happens when you get locked out of a Google account, I wonder what the
impact will be having a Nest integrated with that.
------
0_gravitas
Are there any Open Source hard/software based home-assistant alternatives to
stuff like Nest and Alexa?
------
aspectmin
Okay. What should I replace my Nest thermostat and camera with?
Recommendations appreciated.
------
Rebelgecko
As someone who uses Home Assistant to keep some level of control over my data,
this sucks.
------
24gttghh
Good. One less reason to use this type of garbage in your house anyways.
------
joejerryronnie
And this is why Google will never be able to sell to the enterprise.
~~~
rswail
This is why Google will not be able to sell things not backed by an SLA and a
contract to the enterprise.
Guess what, GSuite and GC are covered by SLAs/contracts.
But yes, this is a stupid move by Google, trying to lock out other
controllers/apps. I have been looking at home automation and I want: a) open
APIs b) security c) functionality
Most offers/products don't even do c) very well.
~~~
conradfr
They did increase Google Map Apis prices a lot almost overnight though.
------
rkochman
“Alexa, tell Google to turn up the heat”
------
thatoneuser
So what you're saying is Google is giving another red flag that any work done
with them should only be considered a privilege that can be revoked at any
time? It's funny I found this article and I'd literally just been thinking
about how I need to avoid Google products because I can't afford to have my
workflow just up and disappear when someone at Google gets promoted to a
higher level management.
------
asdfasgasdgasdg
Questions I won't get answers to, but about which I'm curious anyway:
1\. How many _end-users_ are affected?
2\. How many _devs_ are affected?
3\. What is the annual _transaction volume_ that is affected?
Depending on the magnitude of the answers to these questions, I can see
turning this API off being either a good thing or a bad thing. If hundreds of
users are affected, well. Sad, but sometimes unpopular things get turned off.
If hundreds of thousands of users are affected, this is an eyebrow-raising
decision.
Developers are also important, but less so than users. It would be nice to
keep the lights on just to let people tinker, but that same openness creates
security risks and costs money. Many on this site praise Apple when they make
restrictive decisions that harm devs, as long as those decisions are justified
in terms of end-user privacy and security.
I think the transaction volume question gets at the heart of the issue, at
least for me. If there is a lot of economic activity here, that's a signal
that user needs might not be accounted for in this decision, or at least are
not its primary driver. On the other hand, if only $1M or $2M per year is
changing hands in the affected part of the ecosystem, well . . . again,
nothing lasts forever.
~~~
cthalupa
This is the API that Alexa integration works through, so I imagine it is a
pretty large number.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: How do you overcome the chicken and egg problem? - jwwest
You're building a community driven site that relies on member generated content. Potential users don't want to participate unless there's content. What do you do?
======
veb
Make 20 different user accounts. Create 20 different pieces of content, from
20 different people. Rinse and repeat.
To a new user, it'll look like there's some serious activity, and they'll join
in.
I believe this is what Quora did.
------
rcavezza
I would create two separate services for each side - services that doesn't
require the "egg" or "chicken".
Once you hit critical mass, you can start integrating the futures.
Let's say you want to create a "find a cofounder website".
=====Very Specific Example Here =====
For tech entrepreneurs, you might create a tool that helps with adwords or
business development. Maybe a directory of similar startups in their niche &
pre-typed business development sample emails.
For business entrepreneurs, maybe create a lean website testing quick app that
will test if their idea is viable. Idk, fake pricing page, fake screenshot,
and they'd put in their prices, features, and sales copy.
Maybe you can go even simpler and create one of those dumb quiz sites: Are you
a tech cofounder or a business cofounder quizzes - make it funny and you can
get email addresses on both sides of the coin. Just getting the email
addresses alone can potentially help solve the problem.
------
keiferski
This isn't the answer you're looking for, but I'll give it anyway:
Reframe your site so that you don't rely on the community to power it -- make
it so each user can use the product to its fullest extent without a single
other user.
We had this same problem during the early planning process for our (currently
just _my_ ) startup. Ultimately we realized that we were looking at the
problem the wrong way. Instead of making the tool community-powered, we made
it individual-user-powered. This lets us be "successful" with far, far less
users.
Obviously this probably won't work for your site, but maybe it's just a useful
thought exercise.
------
asanwal
In general, you to have seed one side.
Would also recommend checking out this HBR paper - Strategies for Two-Sided
Markets. It's talk of the "money side" and "subsidy side" is quite good.
------
antidaily
The Reddit guys faked submissions for months until the site caught on.
------
solipsist
As other people have already posted, the founders of Quora and Reddit have
admitted to generating "fake" content on their own to attract users to the
site. Reddit supposedly did this for the first few weeks until it got going. I
also remember reading that Quora put in a lot of hours generating the "fake"
content, but it has seemed to pay off quite well.
When looking at your community, find ways that you and your friends/cofounders
can easily generate lots of hiqh-quality content. It's important to set the
tone of the site when you're generating the content. If you make lots of spam
or low-quality content due to time constraints, the site will get a poor
reputation and new users will continue the trend of making bad content. So
make sure you generate the content wisely from the beginning :)
------
Swannie
Find another source of this same content.
Based on the licensing of it either: use it directly, quote and reference to
it, approach the best contributors and offer to pay peanuts for their content,
approach the site and pay for a bulk license.
Or just outright steal it and deal with the repercussions later :-O (It
worked, albeit indirectly, for YouTube etc.)
Or if you wish to go the normal route, add an incentive. Free "pro" accounts
to the top contributors, ad-revenue share (with a minimum payout set to
something sensible, like affiliate programs, so you only deal with the best
contributors). Or something as simple as a points system (works well at
somewhere like HN & StackOverflow).
------
jonafato
Depending on the type of content you need, you could try leveraging Mechanical
Turk. Or, as others have said, fake it. Also, posting a link here couldn't
hurt (providing it is live).
------
kongqiu
I'm tackling this problem at my startup, ParkGrades.com, by: 1\. Seeding the
site with as much quality information as I possibly can (given my limited
resources); 2\. Incenting users to add content through giveaways; 3\. Testing
the giveaways to see which incentives work best.
Once a given area/topic has a certain amount of information, it's then much
easier to promote that area/topic with additional marketing and incentives.
------
derrida
Have a conversation with yourself and 100's of usernames. Worked for me first
time I made a forum in the late 90's Within a couple of weeks the site
membership was exponentially increasing and out of control.
------
catshirt
am i the only one who cringes at the thought of faking users?
~~~
Mz
Do you have a specific situation you are considering? If so, may I ask what
kind of content it involves?
~~~
catshirt
regardless of the content, it _feels_ like cheating. for whatever that's
worth. "cringe" was admittedly an exaggeration.
~~~
Mz
No, I agree with you. Just wondering if I might be able to help you overcome
an issue. If there's no issue you are working on, no big. We are in agreement.
~~~
derrida
How do we know hacker news isn't faking all this? Am I speaking to myself?
~~~
Mz
Don't be silly. I am the one speaking to myself. Really, extremely advanced
case of multiple personality disorder.
(Please lead me not into humor temptation. Jokes of this sort are discouraged
here and I hate when my other selves downvote me.)
------
Mz
I think that depends in part on what type of content you are aiming for.
I did gather a few links to previous discussions on this topic (and a couple
of related articles) here:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2126209>
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Why Mailchimp is no longer in the Shopify App Store - blackdogie
https://community.shopify.com/c/Shopify-Apps/Here-s-why-Mailchimp-is-no-longer-in-the-Shopify-App-Store/td-p/493593
======
kweks
We run Shopify across a plurality of domains. Over the last 12 months,
especially with the release of "Shopify Payments" (Stripe Connect) - they have
become a lot more opaque, greedy and dangerous for merchants.
Anecdota: \- Their "Shopify Payments" onboarding is highly shady. They onboard
you _without_ performing KYC. Once you are committed to the platform, they
perform KYC. They refuse to perform KYC before moving to their platform.
\- Once you commit, you can't go back to Stripe - they remove Stripe from the
list of providers. In the past, support would reenable it upon request. Now
they refuse.
\- We have a high volume site that migrated to Shopify Payments, after 4 years
of Stripe without issue. Two weeks later, they sent an email stating we were
not eligible Shopify Payments, refused to let us return to Stripe (would not
reactivate it), and held the money collected for three months.
\- On another store, a competitor issued a trademark infringement email.
Shopify pulled all products immediately, without communication - and refused
to reinstate, despite letters from our legal team showing proof of
capitulation from the accusatory party.
The _platform_ is great. It out performs Magento, Presta, WooCommerce,
BigCommerce, etc etc with its interface, product management, raw performance
and core feature set.
However, it is most definitely the PayPal of the eCommerce world: they can,
have, and will happily kill accounts and clients based on their whims.
~~~
yuchi
May I point you to our own competing platform?
[https://en.storeden.com](https://en.storeden.com)
~~~
justinclift
Sounded interesting, but your team doesn't seem to be on the ball. :(
The HTTPS certificate for one of your main websites (submitting bug issues),
linked from your front page, expired last November.
[https://assistenza.storeden.com](https://assistenza.storeden.com)
For a lot of things, some forgiveness is in order.
But for an eCommerce place, it seems a bit much. :(
~~~
justinclift
And, 1 week later the certificate is still expired.
Clearly people should avoid storeden.com.
------
spectramax
I found Shopify app store excessively expensive and risky. Most plugins are
subscription based with poor support, no guarantee of future updates and just
reeks of poor quality. I am not a store owner so I can't comment on how useful
some of these plugins are but the whole idea of business critical services
(such as a store front) needs rock solid foundation and support, without it I
would get extremely nervous.
Imagine if I have 8 plugins that I pay anywhere from $10-30 a month, per
plugin. That's 8 things that can break when Shopify changes some API related
things and now I have 8 _different_ parties that I need to seek support from
to get my store up and running. God forbid if the developer ceases to exist
and bailed out of Shopify ecosystem. I am getting nervous just thinking about
this whole "app store" model for business critical infrastructure.
May be I am not well informed in this space, but there are also services that
help glue various other services such as IFTTT, and a few others that combine
GSuite, Asana, Dropbox, Slack, etc... I can't remember them but I wonder what
kind of nightmares I would have to rely on fragmented infrastructure that
consists of chained API calls managed by independent companies. Mind you, the
middle broker of API also wants the slice of the business so they're going to
either charge $/month or worse - ads. Then there is the whole privacy/security
aspect. Holycrap what a mess!
~~~
dmix
Sounds like Heroku's business model and that works fine for a certain type of
business/consumer. Of course you could spin up your own VPS or code your own
Rails ecommerce app. But that's not always economical - up to a certain scale.
API changes breaking sites is another matter entirely than their subscription
plugin model which could be solved while maintaining that structure.
This change by Spotify seems to be related to Mailchimp not providing a
certain standard of service that they demand from other plugin-services on
their platform. I could see that being a costly choice for any customer who
has to now migrate to other services, but the intentions were largely good and
pro-customer.
Hopefully there was some sort of data migration process in place and some
upfront warnings before your email marketing system gets cut-off.
~~~
spectramax
I think the problem I am describing goes deeper than just the API calls.
It is about support and accountability. As a business owner, I want as few
parties responsible for my infrastructure as possible with healthy portability
possibilities (to avoid lock-in).
With Shopify app store, the whole idea is insane to me - I have to now deal
with Shopify + plugin developers individually to fix issues. Things break all
the time, just go to Shopify forums for support. And then, there is the risk
of a developer leaving Shopify ecosystem with a dangling plugin never to be
maintained.
~~~
dmix
Sure but supporting your own infrastructure is exactly _why_ people choose to
use a service like this.
From my experience running your own services is far more fragile and subject
to maintenance-overhead due to API changes than a service like Shopify or
Heroku.
The main drawback is a lack of flexibility and customization - not so much the
lack of stability in service.
~~~
spectramax
I agree and I can see why supporting your own service would probably be more
of a headache.
What about stores such as Squarespace? They don't have a market place of apps
and everything they do is in their control. Ofcourse, now there is a risk of
lock-in and unable to extend/scale your store if needed.
------
blackdogie
This of course is one side of the story. Looking forward to hear the
Mailchimps side of things.
Edit: here we are [https://mailchimp.com/shopify-
statement/](https://mailchimp.com/shopify-statement/)
~~~
aboutruby
Shopify:
> Shopify has had growing concerns about Mailchimp’s app because of the poor
> merchant experience and their refusal to respect our Partner Program
> Agreement. Our terms require app partners to share all important data back
> to the merchant using Shopify’s API to help them run their businesses.
Mailchimp:
> Throughout these negotiations, we refused to agree to terms that jeopardize
> our users’ privacy and require us to hand over customer data acquired
> outside of Shopify. From our perspective, that's not our data to share.
~~~
jonstaab
I had been working on an integration between our product and Shopify via an
app for just about a week when their updated ToU came out. It is a pain in the
butt. I side with MailChimp here, that customer data isn't ours to share with
Shopify, especially since it concerns a whole different segment of our
merchants' customers (brick and mortar vs ecommerce).
What's not mentioned here is that they also updated the terms to prohibit
selling anything on behalf of a merchant without using their checkout api, if
your software is integrated with Shopify. But we make a special-purpose POS,
that's our value-add. It appears that they just want their cut - of customer
data and of fees.
Edit: a link to the ToU discussion on the Shopify forums.
[https://community.shopify.com/c/Shopify-APIs-SDKs/We-ve-
upda...](https://community.shopify.com/c/Shopify-APIs-SDKs/We-ve-updated-our-
API-ToU-and-Partner-Program-Agreement/td-p/490397/highlight/false)
~~~
kartickv
Exactly what data is this dispute about? The article says "customer
information captured on merchants’ online stores" but what exactly does that
mean?
~~~
jonstaab
The definitions are frustratingly vague. "Any customer data excluding
sensitive personal data", which doesn't exclude stuff that isn't relevant to
them, or things that don't fit in the API.
Also, it states that apps "not use an alternative to Shopify Checkout for web
checkout or payment processing, or register any transactions through the
Shopify API, without Shopify’s express written authorization".
That's from 2.3.17-18 of the api terms of use:
[https://www.shopify.com/legal/api-terms](https://www.shopify.com/legal/api-
terms)
------
navs
So Shopify is mad that Mailchimp isn’t sharing data with them?
I’m no fan of mailchimp (for e-commerce customers I recommend Klaviyo) but
Shopify+ is hell to work with. I haven’t had as much grief with a platform as
I’ve had building e-commerce stores on Shopify (and I come from Magento). For
the price of plus, you get practically nothing. Clients ask me incredulously
why they don’t have something as basic as Wishlist support or access to custom
fields inside their product pages. Shopify’s own sync tool for dealing with
multiple stores doesn’t sync much and their answer to the admin hell of
managing multiple stores is to give us a single login and a store selector.
For everything else well there’s an app for that.
Yes there’s an API. Yes you can build apps. But that’s an investment and at
that point you might as well build something on Woocommerce or Magento. Yes
you have to maintain a server and updates on the other platforms but you’ll
need that for Shopify anyway. If you want to roll your own Wishlist app
(you’ll want to when you see what’s on offer from the shopify store) you’ll
need a server, a database - the architecture that Shopify says you don’t need
to begin with.
~~~
steve-benjamins
Shopify does include Wishlist and Custom Field features. They're available as
apps— not in the core.
The whole point of the app store is to avoid the mistakes of Magento: building
a confusing, monolithic mess because they tried to shoehorn too many features
into the core.
~~~
navs
They’re available by third parties. You can argue that customfields are
supported by Shopify but wishlists aren’t. If you need a Wishlist you need a
database externally storing customer and product data.
So no, Shopify doesn’t have a Wishlist feature. Shopify lists other Saas’ that
offer to fill in the many gaps.
That may work for some retailers. As with Magento, some will like that
approach and some won’t.
But if you’re telling a retailer that Shopify offers a Wishlist feature you
need to be sure to mention that it will cost them $x/month/store and that the
app isn’t built nor supported by Shopify.
------
hrdwdmrbl
Shopify's Plus offering is also really shady. If you ever choose to try it
out, they will not let you return to your previous payment processing rates
(credit-card fees). We had been grandfathered in to their old (good) rates.
But after trying Plus they gave us their new (much worse) rate and refused to
give us the old ones. And this was after they lied about the rate we'd be
getting with Plus. And after they gave us a low teaser rate to try out Plus.
~~~
YeahSureWhyNot
hey we are a small team that developed a multitenant ecommmerce system geared
towards B2B type businesses. I would love to get your feedback about the
solution that we built. please shoot me an email at [email protected] if you
have 10 minutes to chat.
------
lugg
> The data captured on behalf of our merchants belongs to those merchants,
> it’s as simple as that.
No, it doesn't. It's the end users data.
> and this isn’t possible when Mailchimp locks in their data
Complaints about lock-in from you is pretty rich.
> Mailchimp refuses to synchronize customer information captured on merchants’
> online stores and email opt-out preferences.
You're intentionally misleading the reader here. This isn't about opt out
preferences. That's just a useful excuse.
Any idiot can see you're trying to build up a complete picture about user's
spanning across stores.
This isn't about your customers, this is about you wanting to push mailchimp
out.
~~~
bigbadgoose
Wait, when you supply your data to vendors … do they own rights to that
supplication, ergo the data?
------
mancuso5
Well, Mailchimp is starting their own “ecommerce platform” after hiring people
from the now defunct LemonStand. How about that for the real reason for
pulling them off the Shopify app store? :)
------
nickjj
I used to use Shopify about 5 years ago and remember thinking they were one of
the good ones (company wise). Good platform, easy to work with API, etc.. I
even created a few custom apps for a client's site that ended up doing 100k+
through Shopify's POS hardware in a month.
But from all of the comments here it sounds like they've gone down hill. I
haven't used Shopify since then mainly because I haven't tried to pick up new
work where I manage an ecommerce store for people but is it really that bad
now?
How many of you are really going to use an alternative solution for an
ecommerce site?
~~~
calibas
I was kind of shocked that they discontinued their WordPress integration. I
get the feeling they want their customers to be completely dependent upon
Shopify, which is part of why I avoid them when possible.
------
YeahSureWhyNot
as a small wholesale business owner I was shocked that I have to pay $300 a
month to Shopify system that lacks a million things and then I need to pay
30-50 dollars a month for each plugin and it was my job to figure out how they
will work with each other. I am not even talking about support and where I
should get it from after spending around $500/month on the whole 'solution'.
Instead of paying $6k per year or close to $20k for 3 years I got my own
ecommerce system custom built.
~~~
dmix
"$20k for 3 years" instead of 3 years of custom development costs is
nothing... sure it's expensive but that's positioned in a marketplace where
the alternatives are far more expensive for the average non-technical
e-commerce store owner.
If $6k per year is a big expense for you then obviously this isn't the service
for you, but enough people are willing to pay that where they are a billion
dollar per yr in revenue company.
If some half-baked open-source PHP ecommerce platform with a p/t solo
developer over a couple yrs is sufficient to run your business, that's fine.
But that was always an option before Shopify existed too and they probably
found they weren't interested in that subsection of the market.
~~~
YeahSureWhyNot
half baked open source thingy costs $50 a month, im talking about fully custom
solution that actually can handle business cases that Shopify can not. such as
this product is shipped by itself in a box. that product is actually a
combination of the other 3 products. and give accurate shipping quote for an
order is 3 boxes 37 pounds each not 1 big 111 pound box. you will need 17
different apps plugged into shopify to get this to work. and yeah you are
right, there is a million generic stores that ship apparell and other random
crap doesn't have specific inventory and shipping needs and thats Shopify's
market. for anything more advanced you need to shell out $2000 per month for
Shopify Plus. And let me guess your response to that will be "any serious
business can afford that". its like businesses have hand over their cash to
Shopify so that can claim to be a serious business. Shopify is a rip-off and
clearly abuses their market dominance in the cases like with MailChimp
~~~
sokoloff
What outbound shipping system are you using that you’re happy with?
~~~
YeahSureWhyNot
www.CartSpark.com
~~~
throwaway413
Nice sales pitch. Should probably just be explicit that this is your business.
~~~
YeahSureWhyNot
this particular comment didn't ask for that but I have mentioned that I am
developing CartSpark in multiple comments on this thread
------
system2
Shopify and all other service providers MUST stop letting people comment
announcements like this. No one is adding anything valuable but advertising
their own product. This announcement just looks like Quora spams.
------
system2
Last week was about Apple VS Spotify, now Shopify VS Mailchimp. I just can't
understand why big companies can't get along while there is so much money to
make or lose.
I tend to support opensource apps like Magento or WooCommerce. Shopify is
extremely easy but I don't get how they can complain when they actually hold
all the ropes of their clients and say something about another services' data
collection. What's the logic behind it exactly? Users want to use Mailchimp,
and it is not always e-commerce related.
~~~
kokey
I suspect since easy investment money with no questions asked is slowing down
and there's increasing IPO activity, companies are starting to care about
their bottom line more and along comes with it strategic fights with potential
competitors over a share of a smaller pie.
~~~
YeahSureWhyNot
could be. reminds me of the times when Twitter/Facebook and all others first
acted like a platform to build upon and after watching some companies become
successful these 'platforms' tightened data access for the the apps/clients
and pushed them out of business
------
bobjordan
I use MailChimp with my Shopify store and it's pretty irritating to be
impacted and have to plan to deal with this. I put quite a few hours into
getting everything set up as it is now with our MailChimp followup emails
(products left in the shopping cart, etc). From my view, I don't care at all
to have my MailChimp account more connected with the Shopify API. Shopify has
plenty of data on me why do they need more? And, I don't need or want to
control my followup emails from within Shopify. I obviously like MailChimp
enough to chose them, independently. So, I smell BS in reading this Shopify
post.
------
chuckgreenman
Sorry Shopify, I think I buy MailChimp's side of the story more. I wonder what
percentage of Shopify stores are just drop shipping fronts. I can see that
hurting MailChimp's deliverability.
~~~
briandear
How are drop shipping companies harming email deliverability?
~~~
chuckgreenman
There are a bunch of Shopify plugins that just let people sell Alibaba express
items with no intermediate work. These kinds of drop shippers engage in
shadier marketing campaigns. If email coming from MailChimp starts getting
reported for spam, other legitimate mail coming from their ips will see
delivery suffer.
------
so_tired
Off Topic: recommendation for a payment processer for a market place?
So this is a market place for virtual goods. Maybe 10K users, with
$10-$1000/month/user paying into OUR ACCOUNT, and about 100-1000 users are
sellers, pulling in about $10K/month from OUR SHARED ACCOUNT.
Our biggest concern is not commission or speed. It is simply not being
arbitrarily black listed !!
------
apple4ever
Very interesting. Our company just announced switching to Shopify from Magento
(against my advice). We don’t use Mailchimp but this doesn’t sound good from
the Shopify side.
And from some of the comments here, given that we have a highly customized
Magento site (with deep integration to our ERP system) and 100K+ SKUs, I’m
very worried what this will do to our site. I wouldn’t be surprised if our
company will be shocked at the how limiting and expensive it will be.
~~~
navs
I’d be very interested in hearing more about the switch. I’m a Magento dev
that’s recently done a Shopify+ store and would love to hear from people in
the trenches rather than marketing blog posts
------
wdr1
Reading this & Mailchimp's response, the crux of the debate is sharing things
like the user's opt-out status?
------
point78
So they are both saying it's the other ones fault. And both saying because the
other one is sharing private data....
~~~
detaro
> And both saying because the other one is sharing private data....
No, they aren't. Shopify is saying that Mailchimp isn't sharing data Shopify
insists be shared, Mailchimp says sharing that data is not acceptable, because
it's private.
------
4FNET7
If you are larger merchant, we recommend Hubspot.
------
danielfoster
I'm curious what good alternatives to Mailchimp exist? My experience working
with them is that they're a solid but outdated option.
For example I went to import some contacts today and was surprised that
Mailchimp was unable to automatically correct basic syntax errors such as
"usergmail.com", "user@gmail" or even "[email protected] <FirstName LastName>"
The fact that their product management team never thought it was a priority to
include such an easy time-saving feature makes me think they have a rather
hard-headed culture that is missing the boat on a lot of things. I can see why
they would be difficult for Shopify to work with.
~~~
kaslai
You say they are basic syntax errors but fixing them is not the place of the
application. "usergmail.com" could have the @ at basically any spot before the
I and be a totally believable email address. Sure, statistically speaking,
"[email protected]" is the most likely option, but "[email protected]" would be a
perfectly believable email for a game master that manages ail.com.
Given that mailchimp is a bulk email delivery service, I would hate to get
spam at [email protected] just because someone forgot the @ on their
"[email protected]" entry.
~~~
danielfoster
That's a good point. I guess I'm looking at this from a UI / usability
standpoint. I feel it is Mailchimp's job to speed up my email marketing--
that's the job I've hired it to do. If I just wanted to send email I would use
a leaner service at a lower cost.
Mailchimp already filters out bad email addresses ([email protected], etc.).
Most addresses have a format like "sallysanders11" or "michael.smith." The
chances of there being another user on the same domain are scarce and indeed
at least on my mailing list, 70% of the people signed up are on Gmail.
There's no reason why a good piece of software should not be able to use a
little bit of intelligence and ask me if I want to auto-correct my addresses--
within reason, of course.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Avoiding common HTML5 mistakes - joshuacc
http://html5doctor.com/avoiding-common-html5-mistakes/
======
andybak
Reading this, does anyone else get a sinking feeling regarding the chances of
semantic markup succeeding?
It's too easy to get it wrong and the subtleties are, well, too subtle.
It's never going to work.
~~~
gage
I felt the same way. It's hard enough to remember the subtleties of CSS and
which order the table tags go in. The header tag makes my head hurt(no pun
intended).
------
wccrawford
Among them is probably not how to prevent your service from collapsing under
load.
Edit: It's back up now.
Mistakes? Hmm... Bad style, maybe, but hardly mistakes. They certainly aren't
causing any harm.
~~~
rsoto
This is obviously to code purists -- which I am. IMHO, it's way better to know
what you're doing. They certainly aren't causing any harm, but we all have
seen things like:
<span class="title">Article title</span>
And the guy who did it says it's the same as using an <h1>, since the font
size attribute is the same. If they don't understand the value of a semantic
code, they will just see that the site is showing up more or less the same in
the browsers and that's good for them.
------
rsoto
Very interesting article, but what about the <menu> element, what's the
difference between this and the <nav>?
| {
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Website Builder Webflow (YC S13) to Exceed $200M Valuation in New Funding - ballmers_peak
https://www.theinformation.com/articles/website-builder-webflow-to-exceed-200-million-valuation-in-new-funding?pu=hackernewsqf889u&utm_source=hackernews&utm_medium=unlock
======
vlokshin
Congrats. They deserve it.
Even though my company focuses on front-end dev, we still use webflow for our
marketing website because it's _that_ easy.
They're by far the closest to achieving what Dreamweaver once set out to.
Works best when used for marketing websites and when mixed with a basic
respect for CSS.
(1) Idea > (2) Make page in something that feels like figma/sketch > (3)
Publish ... is such a pleasant workflow.
~~~
basch
Webflow seems like a perfect acquisition for Microsoft to take on Adobe. I
agree, it is the modern Dreamweaver.
Microsoft could, in one week, acquire Serif (Affinity), Black Magic (Davinci
Resolve), Webflow, photopea.com, squarespace and have a day 1 full feature
competitor to Adobe Creative Cloud. Microsoft Creator 365.
Im kind of shocked they have moved into the marketing cloud sector against
Adobe, Salesforce and Oracle, but ignored creative tools while allowing
companies like Serif to reinvent themselves overnight.
------
meemoo
FYI: the information in this article is inaccurate. See the August 7th Forbes
article for the correct information:
* [https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexkonrad/2019/08/07/webflow-w...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexkonrad/2019/08/07/webflow-went-from-near-bankruptcy-to-72-million-series-a/)
* [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20636476](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20636476)
------
StanAngeloff
We tried and used Webflow extensively in our company for about 2 years. It was
great for most tasks and we could get up and running fairly quickly. Sadly our
UI dev team never fell in love with it and slowly but surely Webflow faded to
the background. I noticed our subscription had run out a couple of months ago
and nobody had since complained. Brilliant piece of software, however if you
are someone who operates on the code level, never quite good enough.
------
humanbeinc
Webflow was definitely a gamechanger in terms of All-in-one CMS. It lacks a
thousand features, but the core value of the product is just too good:
Creating new pages in a few minutes (with reusing lots of components), hand it
over to the content team, you're done...
------
fillskills
Congrats! Used webflow for 2 yrs to launch my last startup. That was 4 years
ago. And now using it again for the next one. The CMS is new and what a
wonderful thing it is. Love the thought they put into releasing very polished
product. Great work!
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Eternity in six hours: Easy intergalactic spreading of intelligent life [pdf] - gwern
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/847d/8dabb12f67124868af0876c77538e4fd1c60.pdf
======
programd
Needs a (2013) tag in the title.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: What's your favourite ISO standard code? - gidztech
======
Nicksil
I'm a big fan 8601
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601)
~~~
jessemillar
Came here to say the same thing. 8601 can really helps simplify the handling
of dates in APIs. [http://apiux.com/2013/03/20/5-laws-api-dates-and-
times/](http://apiux.com/2013/03/20/5-laws-api-dates-and-times/)
------
gidztech
There's 22560 to pick from: [https://www.iso.org/standards-catalogue/browse-
by-ics.html](https://www.iso.org/standards-catalogue/browse-by-ics.html)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
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A protocol for detection of Covid-19 using CRISPR diagnostics [pdf] - ejstronge
https://www.broadinstitute.org/files/publications/special/COVID-19%20detection%20(updated).pdf
======
bionhoward
Legit! We’re also working on the same exact type of CRISPR (Cas13) to
treat/prevent CoV (as an extension of the Bit Pharma Bio Firewall project
we’ve been thinking about for ~7years) here:
[https://github.com/bionicles/coronavirus](https://github.com/bionicles/coronavirus)
Goal is to use gene therapy to make the lung cells delete the virus. Just
imagine a Bio Firewall, that’s what we’re working on. We don’t modify the
cells’ DNA, we add a new chromosome, and it’s possible to make that self-
destructing, which we’ll do. got the side effect prediction algorithm working
and posted a video on Twitter here:
[https://twitter.com/bitpharma/status/1240986466437791744?s=2...](https://twitter.com/bitpharma/status/1240986466437791744?s=20)
Right now we’re expanding the side effect prediction index from lung CDS to
the whole transcriptome with LevelDB ( multiple orders of magnitude more data
but we can reuse this algorithm and the prebuilt index across a number of
different CRISPR projects) you could use the same exact process for a number
of bugs, Flu would be a good one!
Please hit me up at [email protected] if interested to assist on stuff like
plasmid design, computational directed evolution of stealth CRISPR, in
vitro/vivo testing, or business stuff (we’re hackers not MBAs!)
/yolo
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: french start-up in a difficult situation, looking for feedback/ideas. - Personne
Hi All,<p>I am the founder of a french start-up in a difficult situation, and I am looking for fresh perspective of what to do. I feel HN is the best place to ask. So please take a few min, and tell me what you think.<p>We are a small software publisher, our product is a heavy client (too computations-intensive to be web-based) and we are at a crossroad. Our numbers are much better this year but our current market position is weak and 20-30% of our customers are either dying or moving to new markets. I am not sure the market will be big enough for us in a few months : our value/price ratio being unadapted to a small market with small companies.<p>Because of that, I am thinking about our next move if the situation/market doesn't improve. I see basically 2 opportunities:<p>- Mercenary coding : we are a team of experienced python coders (over 50k in python + a few k in C or C++) with a complete production pipeline/organization. We know how to ship (complex) software in time. This may be interesting for some, but I feel the time to build the connecting with the potential buyers may be too long. As I said, we are located in France, not Cali.<p>- Selling the company to a software group/big company : Our tech is innovative and quite solid but our marketing is not very strong (we try to be clever but good marketing costs money). A group that have the proper marketing and distribution infrastructure would have a good ROI selling our tech through its channels. Again, our location doesn't help to connect to US software publisher (most are in our markets).<p>So, what do you think ? What would you do ? Other ideas ?<p>Thanks,
======
wdewind
This sounds like way too complex a question to answer with the small paragraph
of information provided. So with that little amount of information, I think
the best way to make the decision is by thinking about your team. Of the two
mercenary coding has the advantage of actually feeding people so if you really
like your team I think you should try that, build and ship a few products for
other people and see if with a new perspective you can't think of another
product.
You already have a network and customer base, why not try to build products
for the new businesses THEY are entering?
~~~
Personne
Because the new market looks like a blind gold rush. Everybody is going to the
same place but the maths says that most won't have any ROI.
Maybe you could help with this more-focused question : How to promote a team
of (quite) expert python coders ? I've seen some freelancing sites but 1/
indians/chinese/whatever can undercut everybody there and 2/they focus mainly
on task that doesn't need good coders.
Thanks
~~~
wdewind
Unfortunately I don't know a ton about a) the python market or b) freelancing
in general, but as a fundamental rule you can't be chasing the same clients as
the 1 Indian guy. I don't know where the big fish are, but minnows wont feed
you anyway.
Maybe try finding some other, larger firms and work on a project by project
basis? Contact some agencies, other dev firms etc. Short of that it's all
sales: find the big guys, get an audience, convince them. Not so complicated
just very difficult :)
Good luck.
------
drallison
There is not enough information in your post to offer any serious suggestions.
What is the product you currently have in the market? Did it require special
domain expertise? What happens if you decide to close the doors--how would it
impact your current customers? Is there any potential for expanding your
market? Why would someone want to buy your company? What is the company
culture like? Could you could accept outside direction and management?
Detailed answers to many of these questions are likely to not be appropriate
for a public forum like HN. Your profile has no email address for contact.
~~~
Personne
Sorry about the email adress, it is now corrected.
About your questions, I am sorry I can't go into the specifics but I don't
want to damage our brand. I would be more transparent if the situation was
desperate but we are not there yet (that's what I want to avoid).
Here is what I can say : \- our product is a complex (pc/win) software. \- it
requires some investment but not much (domain expertise is too strong a word).
\- most customers can find alternatives even if much more costly \- our own
market could grow (especially under a focused marketing push). \- our company
culture is quite informal \- I suppose we could accept outside direction. Not
sure, though, I never thought about it.
Don't hesitate to contact me if you want details.
~~~
drallison
I still do not see your email in your profile. Please contact me off grid as
[email protected].
~~~
LBarret
Corrected again. a (network) bug I suppose. Anyway, I'll contact you by mail.
------
ozziegooen
If you really have some innovative developers, you could try to do what Odeo
did :)
~~~
ericmsimons
what did they do?
~~~
koevet
they built twitter: [http://www.140characters.com/2009/01/30/how-twitter-was-
born...](http://www.140characters.com/2009/01/30/how-twitter-was-born/)
~~~
Personne
interesting...I'll think about it but that looks like a shot in the dark,
sometimes you hit something, most of the time not.
------
bluethunder
Firstly understand that the most precious thing that you are losing here is
time - or rather time not spent on building a break-out business. Every day
that you spent on the dead end business is time not spent on building a break-
out business.
This is what I would suggest:
1\. Try selling your startup. Put a time frame on it - say 2 months at the
max. Research and Pitch potential buyers. Don't be too rigid on the price.
Again, you need to sell so that the business (and its employees) can stretch
for as much as possible, and you need to sell to save your time.
2\. If the sale doesnt happen in two months, disassociate from the business.
For all practical purposes assume that the business is dead. Detach and Break
Free. Do not let the dead-end business take your mindspace. Plan the business
contingency - you might let your employees keep running the business so that
it helps pay their salaries - or you might make it clear to your employees
that the business is dead end and they should jump ship. Offer them salaries
till the business pays the bills and help them in whatever way they want.
Whatever you do, do not engage in the business.
3\. Use the now free mind space to figure out the next break out business. Do
not try to adapt your existing business. Do not try to 'do something' with
your business competencies. Do not 'pivot' your existing
business/employees/software.
~~~
Personne
I never thought about dissociating from the business but I see the reasoning
behind it. The 'free mind space' versus sad burnout is really a good image.
Thanks,
------
dualogy
My 2 cents for free, for whatever that is worth...
While the old product still makes you money, invest all resources into
building the new product.
Selling the company / IP: if you don't have willing buyers lined up and
competing-up the sales value, common wisdom suggests that this is usually not
worthwhile / a losing proposition. Buyers are usually trying to enter into
growing markets / products, but you expect negative growth. So not sure who'd
be looking to invest in this area right now...
~~~
lifeisstillgood
Could not agree more. You have a dying product, not a dying business or bad
employees. Level with your employees (who probably already know this is a
dying product) - and then set a revitalising target - Build in the next two
months at least two online profitable (cash positive) services. Which ones?
Ask your employees now, and over next few weeks ask your customers. They have
pain points that clearly are being better met elsewhere, but when someone
credible asks what pain can I solve, most people reply seriously.
------
tttp
What's the size of your organization? Having a core team used to work
together, and that doesn't need to find a huge amount every month is quite a
different beast, and probably much easier to redirect following a different
path than a big(er) and with more inertia.
Are you using/working with open source libaries/platform? Surely if you are
active in a big community (say django), finding some gig to cover the salaries
and buy you some time shouldn't be too difficult.
Btw, there is nothing to be ashamed of to work on others' ideas and projects,
and 'mercenary coding' sounds a bit like you feel you are prostituting
yourself, probably neither good for the ones in your team that will end up
selling their services to keep the company afloat, nor for your customers.
What about your market ? if you think it's really dying, don't die with it.
You should consider open source your product. Might bring more visibility, new
customers and new "mercenary coding" ;)
If your market isn't dying and is small only if you focus on a national
context, selling your team/product to someone having more connections to your
market abroad could be an option, but will likely have an impact on your team,
and on your product. Is this worthwhile ?
Bonne chance.
~~~
Personne
We are 8, 5 devs including myself. Not huge but still costly.
We do use open source libs (mit license), its the combinations which is quite
unusual. But we could leverage some of them like web2py.
About mercenary coding, I am all for it as I know my team would do right and
create a good margin on each project. What I wonder is how to promote a team
like us.
Delegating the sales at the international level might be indeed the best
option. Some of our customer are foreign and in bad shape but someone with
more connections could be more successful than we have been. Open sourcing
(even partially) the product is also on my mind. The increased visibility is
indeed something to consider.
Thank you for you input,
------
teyc
You have existing customers right?
Pick the customer who believes you the most, and ask him to honestly tell you
why this product is important to him. What kind of disasters does the software
prevent in his business. How does this software affect him personally.
The problem right now is your company is very engineering focussed and doesn't
have enough domain understanding. You need to cut back on your engineering
focus and spend more time with your customers.
Also talk to potential customers who are one notch bigger than your current
ones. For example, if you are dealing with 5 person company, talk with 50
person company. Their problems are magnified. Enterprise sales require people
who understand their problems and require some kind of software integration.
Usually, if you have integration or plugins preconfigured, it is a selling
point because customization is very expensive.
------
revorad
Do you have competitors whose products you could sell as affiliates? This
might hurt your pride but will help you stay alive and learn about what
products to build next.
~~~
Personne
Indeed that would hurt my pride but that's a good idea. Thanks.
------
adulau
Concerning the second option:
Sometime you might find potential buyer of your company within your existing
or past customers. Have you reviewed that option?
Another option, maybe your competitor could be a potential buyer too? If they
have some customers they don't have or they are willing to integrate new
functionalities only available in your version?
~~~
Personne
yep, but the transformation from "buy our product because they're good, we are
a reliable company" to "buy the company because it is valuable but cannot
survive independently" is a delicate maneuver.
Our competitor have a quite different framework, the tech integration looks
complicated. They could buy us autodesk-style : to dominate the market
absolutely. Not sure they have enough money for that.
------
hrasm
If you honestly think you are going to fold in coming months, why not hire a
sales/marketing person? Hopefully, he/she will be able to turn your business
around/get new clients/etc.
~~~
Bootvis
Agreed, why not try to get better at marketing and sales yourselves? If, given
with good sales and marketing, you are not able to be profitable in the
changing market then BigCo is probably not interested in a buy-out.
~~~
LBarret
yes, that's the idea. getting better at marketing. See my above comment.
About BigCo, I agree with you but I was thinking more about an industrial/tech
fit something along the lines "this tech adapted to my needs would help me be
a lot more competitive. Buying the company might be simpler than paying a lot
of customization.". Not sure about the validity of that.
------
petervandijck
Your customers are dying?
~~~
LBarret
Some of them are which makes the rest quite conservative about their
toolchains/spending. The financial crisis + some disruptive change in their
production model did a lot of damage.
We adapted but the new shape of the market might be too small for us. As I
said, I am trying to be a step ahead.
------
len
get in touch with some details about your team. might have a project for
you...
| {
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} |
Yacc is Not Dead (2010) - pmoriarty
http://research.swtch.com/yaccalive/#
======
marktangotango
Yacc may not be dead, but parser generation should be, in my opinion. If one
is designing a language today one should, and indeed most new lanvuages in the
last 5-10 years have, avoided the pathological ambiguities of C++. Hence
implementing parsing via recursive descent is sufficient, and i say trivial as
opposed to learning and using any particular parser generator (error handling
being the lrimary culprit in my view). Even for C++, i don't know of a major
project that does not use a handcrafted rec descent parser.
Can anyone convince me of the value of parser genaration, othr than an
interesting academic exercise?
~~~
jules
Parser generators allow you to work on a higher level. The reason why you may
want to use one is the same as the reason why you'd want to use a higher level
language rather than assembly. Instead of repeating the same pattern to
implement every rule in the grammar you simply write down the grammar and the
parser generator expands that so that you don't have to. Unfortunately most
parser generators are limited in the class of languages they parse, or they
are limited in the languages that they can express conveniently. Even parser
generators that support full context free grammars are not enough. You need
some method to abstract common patterns. For example if you want to express
operator parsing in a context free grammar you end up with a separate rule for
each level of precedence. Parser combinator libraries do allow you to use the
full abstraction facilities of the programming language, but they usually are
weak in terms of which grammars they allow you to parse in polynomial time
(usually LL), whereas ideally you would be able to parse regular languages in
O(n), deterministic languages in O(n) and context free languages in O(n^3).
Also parser combinators often do not support streaming & incrementality
because their reliance on backtracking forces them to keep the entire input in
memory.
I don't know of any parser generator or parser combinator library that
simultaneously supports abstraction and supports efficient streaming parsing.
Does anybody know one?
~~~
sklogic
There are parser generators based on PEG and Pratt, which are very flexible
and efficient.
~~~
jules
PEG parsers are not streaming. They have to keep the entire input in memory in
case backtracking happens. I'll look into Pratt parsing. I've actually
implemented a Pratt parser in the past but I thought it was just for parsing
operators with precedence?
~~~
sklogic
> PEG parsers are not streaming.
PEG is a superset of recursive descent. You can structure you grammar in a way
that backtracking is not required at all or minimised.
> They have to keep the entire input in memory in case backtracking happens.
Not necessarily. You only need to keep something like around a current
statement (or other small syntax entity), discarding everything you've already
streamed.
> I've actually implemented a Pratt parser in the past but I thought it was
> just for parsing operators with precedence?
Exactly. And it's really easy to mix it into an otherwise PEG-based parser,
eliminating the need to backtrack for the worst backtracking case (binary
expressions).
For example, there is a very efficient implementation of such an approach
(pure PEG+Pratt, no memoisation and no backtracking) in Nemerle.
There is also a Packrat+Pratt parser used in
[https://github.com/combinatorylogic/mbase](https://github.com/combinatorylogic/mbase)
------
antimagic
From the article: "...though Bison still retains yacc's infuriating lack of
detail in error messages. (I use an awk script to parse the bison.output file
and tell me what really went wrong.)"
Oh dear. Now I'm going to have to get a new Irony meter, because mine just
blew...
------
bmn_
LR parsers like yacc are obsoleted by Earley parsers, which Cox apparently
didn't know about in 2010. Quoting <[http://loup-vaillant.fr/tutorials/earley-
parsing/what-and-wh...](http://loup-vaillant.fr/tutorials/earley-parsing/what-
and-why#Why>):
The biggest advantage of Earley Parsing is its accessibility.
Most other tools such as parser generators, parsing
expression grammars, or combinator libraries feature
restrictions that often make them hard to use. Use the wrong
kind of grammar, and your PEG will enter an infinite loop.
Use another wrong kind of grammar, and most parser
generators will fail. To a beginner, these restrictions feel
most arbitrary: it looks like it should work, but it doesn't.
There are workarounds of course, but they make these tools
more complex.
Earley parsing Just Works™.
On the flip side, to get this generality we must sacrifice
some speed. Earley parsing cannot compete with speed demons
such as Flex/Bison in terms of raw speed. It's not that bad,
however:
• Earley parsing is cubic in the worst cases, which is the
state of the art (and possibly the best we can do). The speed
demons often don't work at all for those worst cases. Other
parsers are prone to exponential combinatorial explosion.
• Most simple grammars can be parsed in linear time.
• Even the worst unambiguous grammars can be parsed in
quadratic time.
My advice would be to use Earley parsing by default, and only
revert to more specific methods if performance is an issue…
In 2014, we now have Earley parsers in C, JavaScript, Lua, Perl and Python.
Further discussion on killing yacc:
[http://jeffreykegler.github.io/Ocean-of-Awareness-
blog/indiv...](http://jeffreykegler.github.io/Ocean-of-Awareness-
blog/individual/2010/12/killing-yacc-1-2-3.html)
[http://jeffreykegler.github.io/Ocean-of-Awareness-
blog/indiv...](http://jeffreykegler.github.io/Ocean-of-Awareness-
blog/individual/2010/12/why-the-bovicidal-rage-killing-yacc-4.html)
[http://jeffreykegler.github.io/Ocean-of-Awareness-
blog/indiv...](http://jeffreykegler.github.io/Ocean-of-Awareness-
blog/individual/2011/04/bovicide-5-parse-time-error-reporting.html)
[http://jeffreykegler.github.io/Ocean-of-Awareness-
blog/indiv...](http://jeffreykegler.github.io/Ocean-of-Awareness-
blog/individual/2011/05/bovicide-6-the-final-requirement.html)
~~~
dalke
"Earley parsers, which Cox apparently didn't know about in 2010"
How do you draw that conclusion? I see nothing in the article which says that
he did or didn't know about Earley parsers. A quick search finds this posting
by Cox from 17 Apr 2006 at
[http://compilers.iecc.com/comparch/article/06-04-111](http://compilers.iecc.com/comparch/article/06-04-111)
:
> Although few people do use Earley and Tomita parsers in practice now, I
> think general approaches, especially GLR, are gaining ground.
Furthermore, the Wikipedia page for GLR says:
> Recognition using the GLR algorithm has the same worst-case time complexity
> as the CYK algorithm and Earley algorithm: O(n^3). However, GLR carries two
> additional advantages:
> \- The time required to run the algorithm is proportional to the degree of
> nondeterminism in the grammar: on deterministic grammars the GLR algorithm
> runs in O(n) time (this is not true of the Earley[citation needed] and CYK
> algorithms, but the original Earley algorithms can be modified to ensure it)
> \- The GLR algorithm is "online" – that is, it consumes the input tokens in
> a specific order and performs as much work as possible after consuming each
> token.
> Compared to other algorithms capable of handling the full class of context-
> free grammars (such as Earley or CYK), the GLR algorithm gives better
> performance on these "nearly deterministic" grammars, because only a single
> stack will be active during the majority of the parsing process.
Perhaps Cox knew about and rejected bringing up Earley in favor of GLR, for
several sound reasons that you didn't know about in 2014?
~~~
bmn_
No need to get so agitated. Your reply comes across unnecessarily hostile for
no good reason.
> How do you draw that conclusion? I see nothing in the article which says
> that he did or didn't know about Earley parsers.
Simple inference from it not being mentioned, even though I thought it
deserved to be. Since that does not prove anything, I wrote "apparently" – I
anticipated my assessment could be wrong, and indeed it was.
> the Wikipedia page for GLR says
I'm not happy with that article. It gives people the wrong ideas, it's not
realistically useful to make comparisons with the decades-old original
algorithm. Modern Earley parsers do contain optimisations that makes those
distinctions mentioned there moot. And unless I completely misunderstand what
the WP contributor aimed to express, the Earley algorithm is "online", too,
and that is the case even for unmodified/unoptimised Earley parsing. See
[http://web.stanford.edu/class/archive/cs/cs143/cs143.1128/le...](http://web.stanford.edu/class/archive/cs/cs143/cs143.1128/lectures/07/Slides07.pdf)
or just step through an implementation with a debugger. I think the reasons
are not as "sound" as you concluded them to be.
To me it appears after all that GLR and Earley are equal in power, so Cox
shouldn't simply reject, and implementations compete in areas other than the
algorithm, e.g. sensible error reporting, simple interface for simple use
cases, ability to consume grammars in standard formats, coverage by number of
programming languages and such like.
~~~
dalke
Unnecessarily hostile? I even used "Perhaps" where you used "apparently", and
quoted a block of third-party text like you did.
Cox wrote "These tools and many others all have the guarantee that if they
tell you the grammar is unambiguous, they'll give you a linear-time parser,
and if not, they'll give you at worst a cubic-time parser. Computer science
theory doesn't know a better way. But any of these is better than an
exponential time parser."
It's more generous to believe that Earley is simply one of the "many others"
that were unenumerated, but equal in power to GLR.
You can certainly argue that there are pluses and minus to all of them, but
they are irrelevant for the context of the essay. That section is very short
and can't be seen as being a complete summary of alternatives, but rather
observation that "newer tools that provide compelling alternatives still
embody [the spirit of yacc]", including bison.
The lack of a reference to Earley is not indicative that the author does not
know it. Consider that ANLR uses adaptive LL( * ) because:
> The biggest problem for the average practitioner is that most parser
> generators do not produce code you can load into a debugger and step
> through. This immediately removes bottom-up parser generators and the really
> powerful GLR parser generators from consideration by the average programmer.
> There are a few other tools that generate source code like ANTLR does, but
> they don't have v4's adaptive LL( * ) parsers. You will be stuck with
> contorting your grammar to fit the needs of the tool's weaker, say, LL(k)
> parsing strategy. PEG-based tools have a number of weaknesses, but to
> mention one, they have essentially no error recovery because they cannot
> report an error and until they have parsed the entire input.
That's from
[https://theantlrguy.atlassian.net/wiki/pages/viewpage.action...](https://theantlrguy.atlassian.net/wiki/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=1900547)
. The page doesn't mention Earley parsers either. I don't think that Terence
Parr, author of ANTL and that quote, is ignorant of Earley parsers in 2013.
(Especially as Parr mentions Earley in 2007 in
[http://blog.athico.com/2007/06/interview-with-
antlr-30-autho...](http://blog.athico.com/2007/06/interview-with-
antlr-30-author-terrence.html) . Note also the issues with GLR in
[https://qconsf.com/system/files/presentation-slides/quest-
fo...](https://qconsf.com/system/files/presentation-slides/quest-for-the-one-
true-parser.pdf) and compare to the lone reference in that presentation to
Earley).
FWIW, I was using an Earley-based parser for Python as part of the SPARK
package back in 2000, and I'm by far an expert in the field, so I think it's
unreasonable to assume, as you did, that a practitioner in the field wouldn't
know about it and have other reasons for not enumerating it specifically.
"Reject" is my word, not Cox's.
Nor did I mean to imply that the reasons on Wikipedia were the same as the
ones the Cox used when deciding to not mention Earley, only that there could
be reasons. Quoting Parr at [http://blog.athico.com/2007/06/interview-with-
antlr-30-autho...](http://blog.athico.com/2007/06/interview-with-
antlr-30-author-terrence.html) " GLR and Earley and CYK can deal with the same
class of grammars (all context-free grammars), but GLR is more efficient."
That one reason alone might be enough for Cox to have decided to mention GLR
and leave Earley in the category "and many other[ tools]".
------
101914
My favorite utility for this task is spitbol. I do not know of any software
that is more naturally suited to working with BNF. Nothing I have seen is as
flexible, either. I'm currently learning an additional, interpreted language
and testing its limits; it is quite fast, so my opinion could change. But I
doubt it.
------
BruceIV
I've been working on a derivative parser for PEGs; it's not quite working yet,
but the inherent lack of ambiguity in PEGs is helpful to the time bounds there
(I think I can make it worst case cubic, and linear in a lot of common cases).
I've got some ideas how to modify the algorithm to a better derivative parser
for CFGs; I should be able to recognize arbitrary CFGs in linear time, and I
think parse them in cubic (carrying around the set of current parse tree
options is expensive, but I think if you store them as a DAG of parsing paths
rather than a parse tree you can make it tolerable).
------
agumonkey
What killed my understanding of Yacc is the ad-hoc nature of semantic actions,
I could never grasp what was in scope when it happened. You could access some
state. Well I was never imperative oriented. I feel it could be enhanced with
better integrated constructs like closures. C++ have them, I've seen people
adding lambdas to C too, so maybe ...
PS: Also, see that article thread about limitations of Parsing (composability)
and other ideas.
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2327313](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2327313)
------
amelius
Has anybody here used Elkhound [1]? How does it compare to e.g. ANTLR?
Also, why do parser generators always have to be so language specific?
[1] [http://scottmcpeak.com/elkhound/](http://scottmcpeak.com/elkhound/)
> Elkhound is a parser generator, similar to Bison. The parsers it generates
> use the Generalized LR (GLR) parsing algorithm. GLR works with any context-
> free grammar, whereas LR parsers (such as Bison) require grammars to be
> LALR(1).
~~~
dalke
According to this swtch.com essay, "GNU Bison can optionally generate a GLR
parser instead of an LALR(1) parsers" and checking history shows that GLR was
available in Bison 1.75 in 2002 (See [http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/info-
gnu/2002-10/msg00008....](http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/info-
gnu/2002-10/msg00008.html) .)
Regarding "so language specific"; proper language support for a given language
is hard, and that's where most of the development time goes.
Adding support for two languages is more than twice as hard as support for one
language. Take a look at the comments for Java support in Bison, at
[http://www.gnu.org/software/bison/manual/bison.html#Java-
Par...](http://www.gnu.org/software/bison/manual/bison.html#Java-Parsers) to
see some of the difficulties and incomplete aspects of that port. Now consider
a port to Python, which doesn't have a switch statement so likely needs very
different code generation style.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Chinese QQ Browser Caught Sending User Data to Its Servers - Jerry2
https://citizenlab.org/2016/03/researchers-identify-major-security-and-privacy-issues-in-popular-china-browser-application-qq/
======
contingencies
_The Android version of the browser transmits personally identifiable data,
including a user’s search terms, the URLs of visited websites, nearby WiFi
access points, and the user’s IMSI and IMEI identifiers, without encryption or
with easily decrypted encryption_
Well call me a skeptic but save the final clause isn't this _exactly_ what
Google collects?
Because GPS is often too slow or cannot get a fix, location services are
usually based on using every single Android device to approximately geolocate
Wifi APs ... then send the data to Google, who tells your phone where it is
when it reports in the local APs.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Two Factor Auth List - davis
http://twofactorauth.org/
======
gergles
You should probably rename Google Auth to "TOTP" since that's what is actually
supported.
Neat idea for a site.
~~~
nacs
Agreed. I don't see why they list Google Auth and Authy separately when they
both support the same TOTP system.
~~~
richbradshaw
Authy also supports (it's own?) TFA system that is incompatible with the
google app.
~~~
bdcravens
Yes, but you include TOTP sites in the Authy app and have them all in one
place.
------
jug6ernaut
While this is all good(and it is, no sarcasm intended).
What I really want/care about is banking sites/companies. If this website
could also compile a list for these institutions that would be awesome. It
truly amazes me how most major banks lack 2fa.
~~~
alexchamberlain
I feel that I should point out that nearly every UK banking site uses 2fa for
transactions, and many as an option for login. This only comes with chip &
pin.
~~~
joe_inferno
I setup a bank account in Germany in 2007 that issued me a hardware token
generator (I forget the name of the bank). It was my first experience with 2
factor auth, and I'm a little surprised that I have yet to see it implemented
with banks in the US.
~~~
luchs
Today, these usually work by transmitting some code via a flickering field on
the website. You insert your bank card into the generator, hold it to your
screen and type the number it shows on the device.
The German Wikipedia has some pictures:
[http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transaktionsnummer#chipTAN_comf...](http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transaktionsnummer#chipTAN_comfort.2FSmartTAN_optic_.28Flickering.29)
------
martiuk
I would change custom to not show red if it doesn't exist.
It gives off an impression that it's bad that they don't have their own custom
solution to 2FA.
------
jonesetc
1\. I thought Google auth and Authy were interchangeable.
2\. [https://library.linode.com/linode-manager-
security](https://library.linode.com/linode-manager-security) for the dev
section.
~~~
sp332
Not sure of the details, but according to
[https://blog.cloudflare.com/choosing-a-two-factor-
authentica...](https://blog.cloudflare.com/choosing-a-two-factor-
authentication-system) they are not (always) interchangeable.
~~~
jonesetc
You are right, but the end of that article alluded to a bit of an
interchangeability.
> They're adding support in the next few weeks for Google Authenticator tokens
> to their system as well. That way you can use Authy's great UI to access
> your Google codes through one app.
So I got looking, and it looks like now you can always use Authy for google
authenticator tokens [1].
[http://blog.authy.com/authenticator](http://blog.authy.com/authenticator)
------
IgorPartola
Random: I really like how simple the Google Authenticator's TOTP algorithm is:
[https://github.com/tadeck/onetimepass/blob/master/onetimepas...](https://github.com/tadeck/onetimepass/blob/master/onetimepass/__init__.py)
It's only a few lines of code and other than having sync'ed clocks does not
require any other running services. At one point I implemented it as a second
factor for my most important servers that I ssh to so that my IP would be
unlocked for 45 minutes after the initial connection.
~~~
StavrosK
Nitpick: It's not Google's, it's an open standard (OATH):
[http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6238](http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6238)
There's also HOTP.
~~~
IgorPartola
You are right, I should have elaborated. Just like most people, I first
learned about it from using the Google Authenticator app.
~~~
StavrosK
Sure, I'm just clarifying that it's a standard (and thus awesome).
------
brady8
If it works with Google Auth, it also works with Authy - same algorithm.
~~~
hoov
That's exactly what I was going to say. I finally put 2FA on my Dropbox
account a while ago. Scanned the QR code in Authy, and everything worked just
ifne.
------
torbjorn
I use two factor authentication apps on my phone to generate my one time
passwords. This works great for me but I always wonder what I will do if I
lose my phone. I've backed up the authenticator apps. I am correct in assuming
I can restore the one time password generators from the back-ups? Is there
anything else I should do?
~~~
kramerc
I have used Titanium Backup to restore Google Authenticator and Battle.net
Mobile Authenticator onto a different device and both apps have retained my
accounts with no problem at all. So yes, you are correct in assuming that you
can restore OTP generators from backups.
~~~
da_n
I can also confirm this. AS well as local, I have set Titanium Backup to send
an additional (encrypted) backup to a cloud storage service as well (in my
case Google Drive). I have restored from Titanium Backup many times with
different ROMS and different phones.
------
mercnet
I tried to setup Facebook Two Factor Auth and it says: "Make sure you have the
latest version of the Facebook app on your device." According to your site,
Facebook supports Google Auth but I am clueless on how to set this up without
installing the FB android app.
~~~
sp332
Head to
[https://www.facebook.com/settings?tab=security§ion=code_...](https://www.facebook.com/settings?tab=security§ion=code_generator&view)
and click "Set up another way to get security codes."
------
dunham
Evernote's documentation says they "recommend" Google Authenticator, but I've
never managed to set it up because their setup process requires SMS. (Is the
TOTP support premium only?)
------
deanclatworthy
This is a great resource. However, the SMS column might require some expansion
as although some of the companies on this list support SMS two-factor auth,
they don't support it outside of the US. Paypal, for example, does not support
Finland (checked last week).
------
markhall
Great site. Is there a way (as a user) to mandate two-factor authentication on
sites that don't natively offer it? I recognize that the obvious answer is no,
but I'm curious to know if anyone has tried workarounds.
------
mindstab
[http://aws.amazon.com/iam/details/mfa/](http://aws.amazon.com/iam/details/mfa/)
amazon supports MFA, but the site seems to not know that...
~~~
nacs
Thats for AWS which is listed as supported further down the page as Amazon Web
Services under the "Developer" section.
The Amazon they list above it is for the consumer store which AFAIK doesn't
support MFA yet.
------
amalag
Sites didn't have a standard to follow and not everyone has the resources of
Google to roll their own. Now that the Fido Alliance has big names on it, I
hope to see companies use it.
------
caio1982
That's a great resource! The first step before increased security is to
increase awareness. Big service providers must be put on spot about two factor
authentication IMHO.
------
batman0219
or [http://evanhahn.com/2fa/](http://evanhahn.com/2fa/)
------
thrush
There are sites that allow you to add 2FA to practically any site. Okta for
example has this feature.
~~~
bradleybuda
Even non-SAML sites can get 2FA support via Google Auth -our company Meldium
([https://www.meldium.com/](https://www.meldium.com/)) now supports over 1,000
web apps, while there are only a few dozen major SaaS apps with SAML support.
------
malandrew
Is there a decent hacker-friendly domain name provider that supports 2FA?
~~~
footpath
There's Dynadot:
[http://www.dynadot.com/domain/security.html](http://www.dynadot.com/domain/security.html)
Also NearlyFreeSpeech, though the domain selection is very limited, as it's
primarily a hosting company:
[https://blog.nearlyfreespeech.net/2014/02/28/price-cuts-
more...](https://blog.nearlyfreespeech.net/2014/02/28/price-cuts-more-
security-and-recovery-options/)
------
DomBlack
This could do with a column for Yubikey support.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Can Chrome Sync or Firefox Sync be trusted with sensitive data? - tillulen
https://palant.de/2018/03/13/can-chrome-sync-or-firefox-sync-be-trusted-with-sensitive-data
======
ddtaylor
Poking around his previous articles I was surprised to see this:
> At the end of the day, OpenSSL is a library, not an end-user product, and
> enc(1) and friends are developer utilities and "demo" tools.
I think most would be interested to know that OpenSSL doesn't consider the
command line tools worth securing.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: Anyone else in South Carolina? - jamesmp98
I was wondering because from what I see, the tech industry here sucks compared to where I was before (Georgia) and was curious if anyone else was marooned here and if you work in the tech industry.
======
ilkhan4
Yep, I'm in the Greenville area. It's not quite Silicon Valley, but I've found
the Upstate to have a pretty good tech industry, at least compared to Florida
where I came from.
~~~
jamesmp98
Nice, Greenville does seem to have some industry, but it's like a 2-3 hour
commute for me.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: What is the ONE most important thing you've learnt on HN? - slice_of_life
Answers can be technical (like a server config loophole you had always overlooked) or non-technical.<p>For me, it was to cut down on hyperbole when communicating. Before, I used to make statements like 'I am sure everyone feels the same way'. Now, I'll ask questions like, how can you quantify how many people feel the same way? Did you measure that or can you make a reference to the statement you just made?
======
harel
Not necessarily on HN but on the internet as a whole, though this applies
heavily on HN:
Like a coin, every story has 3 sides. Hear them all before making judgement,
and in general, opt for internalising judgement rather than publicising it.
~~~
slice_of_life
> Like a coin, every story has 3 sides
I like that.
------
NicoJuicy
Read less, do more ( ps. working on it)
------
amirouche
Do not market a product that has no content.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Salary Below Which You Earn More on Unemployment in Each State - kolz13
https://www.zippia.com/research/unemployment-stimulus-by-state/
======
hkmshao
Really surprising numbers! Haven't seen it on other news media.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
ASk HN the case for going all OpenID Vs. local accounts Vs. Both - wastedbrains
We are implementing a user system and wanted to base it entirely off OpenID. We will store some account details, but use OpenID for all authentication and such. We were curious how much pushback we will get from people that don't have OpenID or like have separate accounts for various things. Who want to sign up and make a password on our system. Should we allow both? Anyone with experience with either case?
======
charliepark
I think it depends on a number of things, among them being:
• is your target audience geeky? (that is, will the people coming to your site
already know what OpenID is, or will you have to educate them on it?)
• how in-demand do you anticipate your service being? (that is, do you think
it'll be _so_ compelling that people will overcome the hurdle of having to
sign up for an OpenID / figure out which of their OpenID providers to use?)
• are there other services in the same vein that use OpenID? (that is, is
there precedent?)
• is there an alternate form of ID (Twitter? Facebook?) that would make more
sense for your anticipated userbase?
~~~
wastedbrains
thanks. We are a really geeky service. I think we can accept facebook and
twitter as forms of openid as they implement the protocol. I think we are
going to move forward with just openID and see what kind of demand or requests
we get to create our own password system.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Unicorn: a simple and flexible abstraction of BigTable-like databases - haifeng
https://github.com/haifengl/unicorn
======
jdf
Not to be a stickler about name collisions, but Facebook wrote a research
paper about a graph database called Unicorn back in 2013:
[https://people.csail.mit.edu/matei/courses/2015/6.S897/readi...](https://people.csail.mit.edu/matei/courses/2015/6.S897/readings/unicorn.pdf)
This appears to be unrelated, which is somewhat unfortunate.
~~~
droopyEyelids
I wish there was some sort of social agreement to name projects new words, or
combined words.
We're overloading the english language so much. In 100 years it's going to be
impossible to search for anything, as every word and phrase will have a
million products and projects attached.
Didn't the original MIT hackers take pride in coming up with clever and unique
names? what happened to that? I'd even settle for names like "elinks"
~~~
Johnny555
Search engines will just need to take context into account, I remember a lot
of confusion between searches for Cisco IOS versus Apple IOS back when IOS
first took on the name, but with a few keywords to provide context, now it's
pretty easy to get relevant results.
------
rspeer
How would I use this if I have graph data that's described in terms of its
edges, not its nodes?
The N-Triples and DOT formats would be examples of graph data that's
structured like this: you just list the edges as the pairs of nodes that they
connect. The nodes don't necessarily have any properties, they're just
implicitly created by edges. I could describe
a -- b
b -- c
b -- d
and nodes "a", "b", "c", and "d" would implicitly exist.
I ask this because the documentation involves programmatically creating nodes,
storing them in local variables, and referring to them when building edges:
gods.addEdge(jupiter, "father", saturn)
gods.addEdge(jupiter, "lives", sky, json"""{"reason": "loves fresh breezes"}""")
If "jupiter", "saturn", and "sky" weren't previously declared and stored in
local variables, how would you do this?
The documentation on the GitHub page is reasonably extensive, but it doesn't
even say how to get an existing node without creating it, and certainly
doesn't say how to create an edge in an efficient way that is independent of
whether its nodes have already been created.
I've also run into a similar problem trying out the new version of OrientDB.
They have a fast importer called ETL, but all the documentation for it assumes
that you're mostly concerned with importing nodes and you're only using edges
to represent SQL-esque relational data. I'm not trying to shove relational
data into NoSQL for the sake of NoSQL, I actually have a large graph.
Importing serialized graphs into a graph database seems to be a pretty
neglected use case.
~~~
haifeng
In most graph database, you find a vertex by filtering its properties, e.g.
Gremlin graph query language. In Unicorn, you can do the similar with document
vertices (it is, a vertex corresponding to a document in another
table/collection). This is probably very nature in a business application.
However, it is not very useful in your case as your vertices are abstract
without any properties.
I guess what you want is some large scale graph analytics, which I suggest
Spark GrpahX or other distributed graph computing engine.
Unicorn is designed for property directed multi-graphs.
~~~
rspeer
I would say that what I _have_ is a property-directed multi-graph, as I
understand it. It's just that the properties are on the edges, and the nodes
have no properties except for their ID.
The graph in question is ConceptNet, which in the version I'm working on has
about 10 million edges and 3 million nodes. Let's be clear that, in computing,
"million" is not a large number. I only said "large graph" to clarify that
it's not a small toy graph. The data needs to be imported with some degree of
efficiency. But I have a 3TB hard drive and 16 GB of RAM, and both of them can
spare a few gigabytes for this task.
Before you throw me into the tarpit of distributed computing, like every other
graph-DB provider does as an excuse for their terrible inefficiency, I would
like to know if your graph database is appropriate to use with reasonable-
sized graphs that fit easily on a single computer.
~~~
haifeng
Check out this script
[https://github.com/haifengl/unicorn/blob/master/shell/src/un...](https://github.com/haifengl/unicorn/blob/master/shell/src/universal/examples/dbpedia.sh),
which loads dbpedia graph into unicorn. You should be able to load ConceptNet
without minor modifications. Later, you can refer a vertex by its string id.
------
janprill
While people seem to mostly tinker with the name in the comments I'd like to
say that this looks like a really interesting project!
Would you mind to give us a little more background with regards to how this
has been initiated, what your motivation was to write something new?
Given that you have an interesting vita
([https://www.linkedin.com/in/haifengli](https://www.linkedin.com/in/haifengli))
and a lot of people are interested in the graph database space I'd assume that
people what be interested in your take on: The graph landscape, why for
example haven't you joined the effort of Neo4j, ArangoDB, Titan and the likes.
Is Unicorn already older than these systems? Why have you decided to open
source now? Why is this linking to a fork originating at ADP while you are
obviously a member of ADP and what is ADP about? Questions over questions
which IMHO should be answered so that people like myself, who are impressed by
your work, get a better chance where this massive effort comes from to better
estimate how long this is going to stay around.
However: Thanks for open sourcing, posting and giving us a chance to play
around with this...
~~~
janprill
Ok, doing a little research about ADP I realize that this is quite a large
company. Sorry, I didn't knew it (am from Germany). But this would make it
even more interesting how unicorn is used at ADP and if this already is a
reference with regards to the scale of larger installations of Unicorn.
------
hans
given the context of today, find the name rather unfortunate
~~~
haifeng
It is true. Unfortunately, the project was started several years ago and had
nothing to do with the startup world. I would like to complain that VCs
destroy another nice name with their hypes :(
------
jc423
does it web-scale?
~~~
haifeng
It is on top of hbase, Cassandra, or accumulo. So yes, it is web scaled.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
US government confirms Clinton emails contained top secret information - wslh
http://thenextweb.com/insider/2016/01/29/us-government-confirms-clinton-emails-contained-top-secret-information/
======
mark_l_watson
A year ago I was a Clinton supporter, even though I didn't like her support
for the Iraq war and her imperial connections.
I am very unhappy with the entire issue of her using a not very secure email
server for government business. I don't like that the disks were reformatted
before being turned over to the FBI. And, as long as I am complaining, I don't
like the way she laughs off suggestions of releasing transcripts for her paid
for talks at Goldman Sachs.
------
EvanPlaice
Knowingly mishandling Top Secret documents outside of secure channels would be
a career ending mistake for the majority of those who deal with anything
security related.
She'll arrogantly laugh it off like she does with everything else that doesn't
suit her personal interests.
As a result it'll set a terrible legal precedent that politicians are above
recourse when it comes to matters of national security.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Java Pain - robin_reala
https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2014/06/20/Hating-Java-in-2014
======
chipotle_coyote
I'm seeing a lot of comments here along the lines of "this is just a problem
Java newbies would have and this Tim Bray guy, whoever he is, doesn't want to
take the time to learn the tools."
Well. True, to a degree, I suppose, but _whoever this Tim Bray guy is_ adds
some pretty important context. He co-authored the XML spec and was director of
web technologies at Sun. You know, the people who made Java and promoted it as
a web technology. Going out on a limb here, but it doesn't seem to me that the
man is a Java newbie.
The point of Bray's rant, I'd suggest, is that these tools largely haven't
gotten any easier since 2004. It frequently seems to be controversial in these
parts to assert that it's worthwhile to make developer tools easy to use
("what you're complaining about is _obviously_ easily addressed by whipping
together something with bash, awk and sed and therefore isn't a pain point at
all, you whiner"), which has always vaguely irritated me. A toolchain which
requires you to wrangle it into place for every project is a toolchain which
could benefit from usability improvements.
~~~
acdha
Agreed - and both Sun and Oracle have no cultural tradition of taking
toolchain usability seriously. Installing updates is a complete trainwreck for
almost every product they've ever released and that's one of the most basic
tasks for a software vendor.
Fundamentally, I think the problem is arrogance – companies like Oracle or Sun
historically assumed that their products are so important that it's someone's
full-time job to deal with the rough edges, they've invested in training or
reading massive doc dumps, etc. – familiar to anyone who's heard tales of
mainframe operators with run books of canned solutions for each problem. Those
HN commentators have the same blindspot.
In addition to usually being flat-out wrong, as the more common user is
someone who just needs to do what should be a simple task which is blocking
their actual real job, this ignores how profligately that mindset wastes other
peoples' time and how it sets a dangerous long-term precedent where
alternatives look attractive because everyone simply assumes e.g. Java,
Solaris, Oracle's database etc. is hard to use and expensive.
~~~
binarycrusader
Installing updates is a complete trainwreck for almost
every product they've ever released and that's one of the
most basic tasks for a software vendor."
Then you haven't used Solaris 11, because in general, installing updates for
the OS (and Java and many other things) is as simple as: pkg update
Also, your generalisations about 'no cultural tradition of taking toolchain
usability seriously' are simply not true, I can show you plenty of tools where
clearly whoever was working on them did care about usability.
With that said, I'm sure you're just venting and didn't mean what you said
"literally"...
~~~
mateuszf
Are you saying that every JDK install should come with Solaris? Or that
operating systems should be built specifically to suppport java installation?
~~~
yellowapple
> Or that operating systems should be built specifically to suppport java
> installation?
Not even "specifically"; these updating woes rarely exist on platforms where
you have a proper package manager (be it APT or YUM or Zypper or Pacman or
Homebrew or whatever). Software devs shouldn't have to worry about writing
updaters, since updating should be handled by the OS.
~~~
binarycrusader
Exactly, Solaris 11 has a "proper" package manager: Network-based
repositories, SAT-solver-based dependency management, signed packages, boot
environments, etc.
------
schmichael
The confusing series of shell scripts most Java services (Cassandra, Kafka,
Elasticearch) come wrapped in are a constant annoyance. Not only do they
rarely if ever follow common shell command idioms, but trying to configure
production services turns into tracing environment variables through a series
of shell scripts sprinkled across my system.
It's nothing wrong with Java the language, but the platform just seems to make
common UNIX best practices hard.
_Edit: Just remembered Kafka is Scala, not Java, but I think it just supports
my asssertion that the Java /JVM ecosystem just makes common best practices
hard._
~~~
x0x0
I was about to say "omg yes" \-- as someone who writes piles of java code,
this is a constant pain. However, look at the other tools: I run python out of
a virtualenv. I use rvm to run multiple rubys, and that shit breaks all the
time for me. (Or rather, I use it infrequently enough that I never learn it
well enough; I use it for the first time again every 2-3 months).
That said, java is a special bit of shit. Those shell scripts are really
complex. Most java shops have had problems with classpaths exceeding the 32k
limit in shells! And java is yet another language where the morons who run it
refuse to sand off some of the really sharp edges most likely because their
heads are in their asses. To give two really simple examples:
1 - why the fuck can't I import a directory full of jars? eg
--classpath ./lib/jars/*
or better yet, recursively descend
--classpath ./lib/jars/**
For personal projects I often use ant just to manage the classpath.
2 - a nullsafe repeated dereference operator, like groovy. If I'm pulling out
a.b.c.d out of a nested object, in real code, I have to say if
String address = null;
if (a != null)
if (a.b != null)
if(a.b.c != null)
if(a.b.c.d != null)
address = a.b.c.d.address;
return address;
// vs groovy
String address = a?.b?.c?.d?.address;
this is the sort of minor irritant that you have to deal with all day long
with deep class hierarchies, and there's some really low hanging fruit to
instantly make my life better. sigh.
And for java, the combination of ant, maven, ivy, etc, are a special set of
hell.
~~~
agibsonccc
Re: classpath. You mean like this[1]?
[1]
[http://docs.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/technotes/tools/windows...](http://docs.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/technotes/tools/windows/classpath.html)
~~~
x0x0
eh, you're quite right; it's the recursive I really need. oops. fta:
Subdirectories are not searched recursively.
our solution has typically been to unjar all the libs and turn everything into
a single giant jar, though this often leads to 100+M jars.
~~~
agibsonccc
Yeah I use uberjars sometimes too. Java deployment in general is
awkward/subpar. Some of the newer tech like dropwizard has helped with this,
but it's still far from ideal.
~~~
pron
Take a look at capsule[1] (I'm the author).
[1]:
[https://github.com/puniverse/capsule](https://github.com/puniverse/capsule)
~~~
agibsonccc
This is what I was going to bring up. Also: hello again ;).
------
patio11
One thing which I noticed during the Stripe CTF, where Node, Scala, and Go
were all first time languages for me, was that the baseline experience of
getting a dev environment assuming you have a Linux box is, in 2014, really
freaking awesome. I was doing Java in 2004, and think it would probably take
me half an hour going from zero to "minimum viable Java dev environment." I
was hello worlding after maybe three console commands in Go/Node/etc.
This is partly a technology problem, partially a philosophy problem (Java does
not have a scripting language heritage which counsels e.g. having a REPL or
really obvious options for program invocation), and partly a marketing
problem. I rather doubt that anyone at Oracle has the job "Make people's first
experience with Java suck less." Web devs thankfully have standardized on
"batteries included; max five minutes to install" for new platforms in the
last few years (Rails strikes me as the conspicuous first example, and
ironically is harder to install now than it used to be).
~~~
glimcat
It still often takes me 30+ minutes to set up the environment for a new
language, but that's mostly spent doing some reading on how to set it up
"right" vs. just executing an apt-get.
Most of which comes down to the fact that official documentation for first-
time users is somewhere on the spectrum of nonexistent to crappy. Many
languages have pretty good tools for managing virtual environments and
dependencies and such these days, but odds are that a new user won't find out
about them for quite some time unless they know to go looking.
------
abalone
Play targets this _exact_ pain point in Java. The "I want to script stuff
easily in a text editor not an IDE and by invoking from the command line
and/or by loading a web page without a compilation and deployment step" case.
Here's the manual page for calling an HTTPS service [1]. You just call
WS.url("[https://example.com"](https://example.com")).get(). And if it's a
self-signed certificate then it's more or less one line in a config file to
add it. That's about as easy as it gets short of deliberately making HTTPS
insecure.
My experience: I very quickly evolved beyond this case and prefer the
robustness of standard Java with the convenience of a bundle like Dropwizard
[2]. Dropwizard packages up and glues together various best-of-breed libraries
for building services. That was the _real_ pain point for me, not so much
having to use an IDE.
[1]
[http://www.playframework.com/documentation/2.3.x/WSQuickStar...](http://www.playframework.com/documentation/2.3.x/WSQuickStart)
[2] [http://dropwizard.io](http://dropwizard.io)
------
tsmarsh
Yup, he's right. Most of these problems have been solved with tools, not by
the JDK. If I have arbitrary Java that I want to execute quickly I write a
unit test, not a test program for precisely this reason.
I guess it doesn't slow me down, because I know the unit test 'trick', in the
same way as I know how to get Light Table to execute arbitrary s-expressions
to get around Clojures load times has meant that I'm far less obsessed with
Clojures slow startup.
Its a problem, sure, but I don't think Java is broken, its just never had the
CLI in mind.
~~~
kyllo
_If I have arbitrary Java that I want to execute quickly I write a unit test,
not a test program for precisely this reason._
Exactly. JUnit is your "command line" (and your REPL) for Java.
------
lucian1900
There are many Java pains, both little and big. Most of them are more related
to the JVM than the language.
It's why I still don't use Clojure significantly (or even ClojureScript), even
though I really like the language. Things just break or simply never work and
it appears random. Other environments I use get a lot less wrong (although
node is pretty bad too).
~~~
jwr
Actually, Clojure improves the "Java experience" by quite a bit. As an
example, leiningen as a build tool is quite usable, and it doesn't take much
work to get a working (yes, also from the command line) application.
As for the JVM "just breaking", I can't agree with that. The JVM is an
impressive piece of engineering and I'm very glad I can make use of it in
Clojure, rather than deal with half-baked attempts at building yet another VM
(reference counting, anyone?).
~~~
nathell
Interestingly, Leiningen is very much usable as a Maven replacement even for
pure Java projects. I've tried it, it works fine. Just specify :java-source-
paths in project.clj, and you get all the goodies like lein uberjar for free.
------
jakozaur
Quite a lot of languages let's you do https, but just give you illusion of
security. Not really validating it, which is trivial to spoof with certificate
signed by "your own authority".
"The Most Dangerous Code in the World: Validating SSL Certificates in Non-
Browser Software"
[https://www.cs.utexas.edu/~shmat/shmat_ccs12.pdf](https://www.cs.utexas.edu/~shmat/shmat_ccs12.pdf)
~~~
idbehold
Wow, does this imply that the Heartbleed bug might end up being even more
damaging that previously thought? This paper shows that even if you've already
revoked your old certs, many pieces of widely used software don't even bother
validating them.
~~~
Eridrus
This has nothing to do with heartbleed. This means you can just generate certs
on your own machine that a lot of software will simply accept.
------
suprgeek
Given Suns history with EJB 2.0, I would humbly submit that "ease of use",
work out-of-the box etc should not be the default expectations with Java.
Having said that (snarky response) having worked with Java from 1.1, I think
the language is moving in the right direction. The latest release (8) adds a
ton of syntactic sugar and there is a real impetus towards easier more dev
friendly features.
Plus Java needs a non-backwards compatible version soon. I suggest Java X be
that where it gets rid of a lot of the cruft that has built up.
(Go Duke!)
~~~
exabrial
Amen for breaking backwards compatibility. Needs to happen soon so the CRUFT
can be cut out of JEE.
~~~
adamc
I see the appeal but... Python's long, slow march to widespread adoption of
3.x, and Perl 6's much less successful experience, both suggest there would be
a _lot_ of danger in that.
~~~
yellowapple
Yep; I'd rather just have Perl5 on Parrot than have to relearn Perl.
Not to mention that the O'Reilly book for Perl6+Parrot doesn't have a parrot,
or even a camel. Deal-breaker right there ;)
------
scotty79
Java is Enterprisey. Enterprises survive and operate only because they by
freak accident at some point began earning way too much money. They employ
lots of people who have no incentive to save work. We are paid for our work.
Effects of the work are secondary to almost everybody in corporate world. Why
trouble yourself with figuring out code if you can get paid all the same for
tinkering with claspaths and poms for few days.
Java is a decent language but its developers have way too much tolerance for
pointless hoopjumping.
------
agibsonccc
As a java dev myself, I'd just like to say that I agree. If I want all of
those extra features, I will just move to scala though.
The command line is a bit quirky, but I think like anything else in java, we
typically solve it with libraries like args4j. It's not the best situation,
and there's lots of ways to do things.
That being said, whether you consider this stockholm syndrome or not, I'm used
to the quirkiness and it doesn't really affect my day to day. Could I be as
productive had java had better features/support? yes. Is it that much of a non
starter? I think it's just like any situation, use what makes sense for the
job.
------
skywhopper
I know Java well, though I'm not primarily a developer. As a DevOps guy, there
are a few places where I'd love to be able to write a quick program in Java to
take advantage of one API or another, or to ensure compatibility with the app
I'm trying to manage or what have you, but between the boilerplate, the
classpath, the compilation step, and the awkward command line, it's almost
never worth it, and I write it in Ruby or Bash instead.
The complaint about overstrict PKI libraries is spot on as well. Dealing with
Java's PKI infrastructure for https URLs, etc, in a systems level setting
where, you know what, sometimes the CN on the cert ain't gonna match the
internal name, is a huge pain. Other languages are actually pretty bad about
this too, and so too often I resort to calling out to curl -k because it'll
just shut up and do what needs to be done.
It's clear that this is all because Java is built around the assumption that
you're creating a big program and you're going to use an IDE and you're
willing to deal with multiple steps before you have something that'll run on
the server. That's fine and dandy. _If_ the Java community wants Java to be
more useful for smaller tasks, then Tim's complaints here are dead on target.
But if not, I long ago gave up trying to use Java in this way, and I think Tim
should do the same.
~~~
Eridrus
I'm not sure why Java is taking a bullet on this.
The default in other languages is often to not do any certificate validation.
That seems like the worse approach since no-one can tell their code is
insecure. Maybe fine for a scripting tool, but I wouldn't want that on my
production boxes.
I'm not sure why every language needs to be useful as a scripting tool. If
there are things that help the common case and also scripting (eg classpaths
being a pain), there's obviously an argument for "why the fuck hasn't this
been fixed yet", but in other cases there are either fundamental tradeoffs or
resource constraints.
~~~
yellowapple
> I'm not sure why every language needs to be useful as a scripting tool.
"Easy things should be easy, and hard things should be possible." \-- Larry
Wall
One of the reasons why I switched from Java to Perl. I didn't feel that easy
things were easy in Java, and I don't run into enough hard problems on a daily
basis to justify the verbosity and masochism involved.
~~~
Eridrus
On one hand, I'm happy you found something more productive.
On the other, I've spent a good chunk of time _just_ reading other people's
code, and I've come to appreciate really straight forward verbose code.
So I am a bit biased against the Perl I've seen, since it is generally not
written with ease of understanding as a priority.
~~~
yellowapple
That's unfortunate. I try to keep my code (no matter what language, Perl
included) as readable and tidy as possible for the sake of those reading the
code in the future (myself included). While creatively stringing an
incomprehensible stream of punctuation marks into a usable program is fun, I'm
with you in agreeing that such coding styles should be avoided in anything
that's not a one-off mental exercise.
That said, too much verbosity can introduce the same problem of unreadability
by making important things harder to identify. There's an important balance
between verbosity and terseness that should always be considered.
------
oinksoft
Without the code and error message, this is just a rant from some (famous) guy
who can't/won't figure out his tools.
First of all, it took me forever to figure out the java
command-line incantations to tell it that it needed my
project’s class files and the json.org library (which I’d
already downloaded so I could compile the sucker). Yeah,
I used to know that stuff ten years ago, but there really
shouldn’t be any complexity here.
"incantations"? It's not wizardry.
~~~
tjr
Referring to things like unusual command line options as "incantations" has
been reasonably common across the history of computer usage at least from the
1970s or so, if not earlier.
See:
[http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/I/incantation.html](http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/I/incantation.html)
~~~
xxs
what's so unusual about -cp (or "-classpath")
~~~
acdha
If you're familiar with most unix tools, you'd expect that to be --classpath.
If you need more than one addition, do you use a colon separated list (Unix),
semicolon (Windows), or repeat it once per option? Does it expand ~ or do you
need to
None of this is that hard but if you don't use this all the time it's easy for
everyone's soup of almost-but-not-quite similar conventions to blur together
and you waste time figuring it out.
In the Java world you have the added problem that the JVM has a legacy
convention which doesn't follow any platform standard _and_ the problem that
many projects use different conventions so you probably also have a different
set of rules for JVM options and the actual program options.
------
critium
Seems like 2 issues:
1\. Launching Java Programs can suck
2\. Java defaults to secure on https requests.
First, on #2, yeah, really cant do anything here. If they didnt do this way,
it would be reported as another vulnerability in the JVM that they would have
to patch.
On #1, this is actually an old problem that I had worked on this years ago and
i even published the solution in javanet (remember that?). If there is any
interest in this, i can revive the project since its been dead for nearly 10
years.
([http://web.archive.org/web/20070724060104/https://launcher.d...](http://web.archive.org/web/20070724060104/https://launcher.dev.java.net/))
Basically I had a custom classloader read the lib dir that worked similarly to
tomcat's classloader. Dump any jars/wars/etc in there that you want. All you
had to do was tell me where the main class was (because a lot of jars have
testing Main built into it and i wouldnt know which one you wanted to run).
------
mdpye
How is the classpath problem different from manually specifying the -L and -I
compiling that little c program exactly?
~~~
schmichael
-L and -I are specified at compile time, so if you distribute/deploy a binary the runtime doesn't have to care (except in the case of dynamic linking - eek!)
$CLASSPATH is purely runtime, so it's all the fun of dynamic linking, all the
time. Monolithic shaded JARs can solve this problem but introduce some of
their own.
~~~
mdpye
So someone has already gone to the effort of specifying them. In that case the
analogous java situation is downloading a packaged jar and running java -jar
mything.jar
------
tootie
Executable jar anyone? It's not that hard. Generating a standalone executable
(a jar plus a bundled JRE) is not as simple as it should be, but it's
certainly doable.
------
_greim_
Everyone knows in theory that an actual command line is being run, and
somewhere a main() method has kicked it all off, but the Java world is really
dominated by enterprise tooling concerns, many levels of abstraction away from
such things. Since people in the community don't spend much time thinking
about it, it doesn't get the attention and polish it needs.
------
gavinpc
$CLASSPATH pain is one of the first things a new Java developer encounters —
maybe the last, in many cases.
The only reason it's not quite as bad in .NET is that it can usually reference
at least the framework in a well-known location.
But generally, whatever you call the problem that $CLASSPATH is designed to
solve (assembly binding, reference resolution), it's an unsolved problem.
~~~
tootie
That's a feature, not a bug. It's part and parcel of dynamic linking and
dependency management. You certainly can generate a monolithic executable jar
file if you want.
------
sid-
In java to be able to crawl a https url you have to do the following -
[http://www.coderanch.com/t/134619/Security/JDK-trust-
Certifi...](http://www.coderanch.com/t/134619/Security/JDK-trust-Certificate)
Its easier in other languages but its not that hard in java. Just export
certificate via IE and save to disk and from the jre/lib/security folder and
issue one command keytool -import -alias mycert -keystore cacerts -file
d:\mycert.cer. (default password is changeit) Done.
~~~
scotty79
Why must you do that? And why you don't have to do that for environments of
modern llanguags?
~~~
jcape
tl;dr: Other environments are insecure out of the box, and require
applications specifically opt-in to security. Java requires you opt-out of the
security.
HTTPS is built on top of PKI, which involves a list of trusted root
authorities who verify that the certificate for blahblah.com is actually for
blahblah.com. A self-signed certificate won't have that, and any application
that doesn't validate that the certificate is signed by a trusted authority
and not expired, etc. has no security.
If an application doesn't validate it's certificate, anybody sitting between
you and the HTTPS server can step in between you and your traffic, give you a
phony certificate, and then proxy all your "secure" traffic to the HTTPS
server. And, of course, "sitting between you and the HTTPS server" means not
only the NSA with their low-latency network specifically built to conduct
these types of attacks, it also means the guy in the corner at Starbucks too
(because WiFi is a radio).
Java only actually started checking if certificates were valid very recently
(IIRC it was J7, r51). Prior to that, Java was just as lax as every other
toolkit---probably specifically to address complaints like Bray's: "testing
HTTPS is tough".
~~~
scotty79
I never understood how trustworthy is cert that you could buy for 100$. What
that certificate proves? That whoever signed the stuff had a 100$ at some
point?
Besides ... why can't java just pull the certs out of the system (like you did
manually) or ship with them like every browser does (I presume).
~~~
jcape
They typically ask that you perform some step of the transaction using an
e-mail address tied to the domain, so it's not quite that terrible. The 700USD
EV certs actually require corporate registration paperwork, tax IDs, etc. and
are far closer to a credit check in terms of depth.
I agree that Java should use the certs the system provides, and that is a PITA
to wrestle with keytool, but I also know that the self-signed cert that apache
is using is not trusted by your PC either (so you've got work to do
regardless).
------
yawz
Use a programmer testing framework (e.g. JUnit) even if this is an integration
test, even if you're going to "ignore" it later. If you feel the need to
create a main() method just to test your code, IMHO, it is a type of code
smell and I think this should belong with your programmer tests.
------
exabrial
C, CPP, Objective-C, and Swift are all broken too then...
Java runs as compiled bytecode, not interpreted script. Try "mvn exec:java".
If you're not using Maven, you're likely making this ridiculously harder than
it needs to be. (And yes, Maven sucks too, but it's also pretty good).
I do think a KeyBase Java client is a good idea though! Can't wait to see the
results.
------
logn
Java supports Runnable JARs. This bundles all dependencies into the JAR so you
can just run:
java -jar foobar.jar
And if it's a webapp, you can use something like Jersey so that the JAR itself
if a webserver (launched from main function). And with Jersey+Grizzly you can
make webapps that have zero XML config, btw.
Java's SSL handling is definitely annoying, though. But I think it's better
than how other languages do it which is to simply bypass cert validation.
Also, I don't think it's fair to lump anything Android-related into complaints
about Java. Google yoinked the Java syntax and the name and then added their
own stack underneath.
My main pain point with Java is dependency management and builds. I don't like
any of the systems out there. After years of Ant, Ivy, and Maven, I've just
resigned myself to using Eclipse and downloading JARs manually, storing them
with the code. It's ugly but not as ugly as Maven.
~~~
djeikyb
For those who can accept ant+ivy, I feel this is a stab in the right direction
for console apps: [https://github.com/djeikyb/simple-console-
app](https://github.com/djeikyb/simple-console-app)
The script target creates a runnable shell script that has the jar and all
dependencies embedded. The last step might be using packr[0] to also embed the
java runtime.
[0]: [https://github.com/libgdx/packr](https://github.com/libgdx/packr)
------
jayd16
Are we seriously talking about this article? There's nothing here.
------
PaulHoule
This is why I wrote this open source package
[https://github.com/paulhoule/centipede](https://github.com/paulhoule/centipede)
you can create a new project with from a maven archetype that has log4j and
Spring set up for you. A centipede application contains a bunch of little
command line applications that are defined simply by writing classes that
implement CommandLineApplication; Spring automatically finds all of these and
makes them available.
Centipede also defines a per-user configuration mechanism that means you have
no excuse to hardwire database passwords into your version control.
------
ivanr
Tim's rant is misplaced. The reason he can't connect to
[https://keybase.io](https://keybase.io) using Java 7 is because Keybase have
(mis)configured their server so it doesn't offer any cipher suites Java 7
could use.
[https://www.ssllabs.com/ssltest/analyze.html?d=keybase.io&s=...](https://www.ssllabs.com/ssltest/analyze.html?d=keybase.io&s=54.84.133.185)
You can see this in the SSL Labs simulator, in the bottom part of the report.
Clicking "Java 7" will show the cipher suites available by default.
------
sehugg
tl;dr: Missing certificate in keystore. It'd be helpful to know the details;
it's hardly an issue limited to Java (although it's harder to bypass
certificate checking than in, say, curl)
~~~
nailer
Yep, it happens in node. There you fix it with:
require('ssl-root-cas').inject();
------
skizm
I'm confused about the HTTPS complaint. Is he trying to do something special?
I'm pretty sure a simple HttpURLConnection object can read HTTPS links same as
HTTP links.
I feel like I'm missing something.
------
fsdfweafwe
This is what I hear: "I am java newb and it doesn't work!" . Its true that
other languages are simpler but he is missing the point why in java you have
explicitly set classpath. Java allows not only for having multiple versions of
libraries on the system with no installation whatsoever, but allows running
components requiring those different versions of same lib in the same process
(OSGi).
~~~
rspeer
> This is what I hear: "I am java newb and it doesn't work!"
You might want to check your hearing, because this is Tim Bray.
------
teacurran
So many people commenting here don't seem to have read the article. His
comment is that Java can't connect to an SSL encrypted URL out of the box. He
is saying that because it can't do this it can't be used for a basic command
line app. He isn't complaining that it is hard to write a command line app in
Java.
He is trying to load this URL:
[https://keybase.io/_/api/1.0/user/autocomplete.json?q=someth...](https://keybase.io/_/api/1.0/user/autocomplete.json?q=something)
This URL is not self signed and loads fine as a valid cert in a browser. In
the Java application it throws an exception about a bad handshake. I believe
this is because Java 7 and 8 ship with less trusted certificate authorities
than browsers do.
I forked his project and made it easy to run via the command line without
Android if anyone wants to try it out:
[https://github.com/teacurran/KeybaseLib](https://github.com/teacurran/KeybaseLib)
Just clone the repo and execute "./run.sh something"
------
guipsp
´./gradlew run´
Good luck trying to compile a C project without autotools/make either.
~~~
angersock
It's not that hard. I believe in you.
gcc test.c -o test
~~~
nsxwolf
That's not much of a C project. If that's the standard, then Java is a breeze:
javac Test.java
Easy to run, too:
java Test
------
mark_l_watson
There is a lot of truth in what Tim says.
The Java + Clojure + JRuby ecosystem has been very good to me. That said, I
have been spending more time writing Haskell code that anything else this year
and being away frmm the JVM, and being able to build compact executables is a
breath of fresh air, especially since I am looking at Haskell now more as a
strongly typed and perhaps better Lisp.
------
vorg
> Dear Java: I can run Ruby and Python and Go and JavaScript and C code from
> the command line on my Mac. If I can’t run you, that means you’re broken.
These were the types of problems dynamic JVM language Groovy was created back
in 2003 to solve. If only Groovy had stuck to its knitting when the new
management, er, took over from its creator a few years later, it would still
be a solution. Unfortunately, Groovy diversified into providing CompileStatic
tags to compete with Java, DSL syntax to compete with Maven, a MOP to compete
with Rails, and AST annotation hooks to compete with Lisp. It's now become
obsolete for its original purpose of JVM scripting, missing the Java 8 boat
despite several years advance warning, as well as being at best 2nd fiddle but
usually 9th fiddle at the stuff it tried diversifying into.
------
yarper
Also points for readers;
if you use intellij or another good ide it'll package it up for you with a
execute script
(gradle's application/java plugin also do this)
manual classpath supplying is not advised
------
cowardlydragon
He's getting hamstrung by Java's intolerance of self-signed certs.
Which overriding is a bit of black magic.
------
spullara
IMHO, the best way to distribute java programs is create a single jar and the
append that jar to this shell script:
#!/bin/sh
exec java $JAVA_OPTS -jar "$0" "$@"
~~~
aikah
and then it doesnt run on windows...so much for run everywhere...
the best way to distribute a package is to create a proper package for each
plateform and encapsulate any java "gimmick".
~~~
jebblue
Right, you don't need the script as long as it's an executable jar, it will
run fine with:
java -jar Product.jar
If there are any native libraries then they need to be built into the jar, you
could do one jar or one for each platform.
------
norswap
Very true, I was thinking about this recently. Note there's no technical
impediment to making the right tools, so if you're tempted, have a blast :)
(Otherwise maybe I will)
------
not_rhodey
you're kidding me, right?
rhodey@rhodey$ mvn package
rhodey@rhodey$ java -jar <package-name>.jar <command line options>
~~~
schmichael
I don't think you read the article. You don't address his certificate issues.
Your solution also requires writing a pom.xml which is non-trivial.
~~~
Malus
Maven can generate one for you:
mvn archetype:generate -DgroupId=com.mycompany.app -DartifactId=my-app -DarchetypeArtifactId=maven-archetype-quickstart -DinteractiveMode=false
Which is not trivial I suppose, but it is pretty easy to do.
------
tokenizerrr
If you're using eclipse or android studio there's just a single button that
compiles and sends your app to the plugged in device, and uses your IDEs
debugger, and a logcat window for the system log. There's also an emulator
which you could use instead, which comes with the sdk.
~~~
CanSpice
So to run a smoke test using a language that's already installed on the
computer Tim Bray is using, instead of just typing something easy into a
terminal, he needs to download an entirely new application, set that up with
his project (which isn't exactly a walk in the park), plug in his device, and
then run it?
He wants to run a smoke test on a library he's writing. He doesn't want to run
a full-blown application just to test his library, or to have to plug in a
device to test his library. He wants to open up a terminal, type "java test
KeybaseLib" (or something like that) and have it just work.
------
djulius
By far, the most uninteresting post of the day on HN. Some random guy ranting
on trivial stuff.
~~~
pflanze
He's not really random, at least I remembered his name. He may have invested
enough into the XML, and since Java is pretty strongly into XML, perhaps also
the Java world to feel justified venting about it.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Bray](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Bray)
------
CmonDev
"Dear Java: I can run Ruby and Python and Go and JavaScript and C code from
the command line on my Mac." \- to be fair most of those languages are
scripting languages.
~~~
simonw
In my opinion, the difference between "scripting" languages and other
languages hasn't been relevant for about a decade.
~~~
Someone
In my mind, the difference is clear: scripting language == has REPL == lets
you treat it as a calculator, and (in practice) has a one-line, one-statement
"hello, world".
So, I don't think go is a scripting language. It requires you to write a
function and then call it before it will output anything.
So, forth, JavaScript, lisp, lua, perl, python, ruby do qualify as scripting
languages in my book.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Show HN: Pogo – Host your own podcasts - gmemstr
https://www.producthunt.com/posts/pogo-3
======
bernardhalas
Nice presentation page, but it doesn't explain how does this work. It says I
can host my own podcasts. What exactly is meant by that? I can host podcast on
a hard-drive on a machine with public IP. Or I can host the podcasts on AWS
S3. What's the added value of your tool?
What's the architecture of your solution? What are the benefits? I can look
into the source myself, but if the tool is meant for an average audio-blogger
who is not a SW developer (who would look into github and try to understand
what this is by reading the source), then I guess you need to share more info
on this matter. Is this command-line only? If this has a GUI, any chance to
see some screenshots? Does this allow streaming? If so, how? Does this tool
come bundled with a web-server?
From my perspective if you want people to try this out a little you need to
set some (positive) expectations.
If you want feedback from more people, you can try
[https://usability.testing.exchange](https://usability.testing.exchange)
(disclaimer: I am associated with it).
Good luck!
------
stevekemp
The real site is [https://pogoapp.net/](https://pogoapp.net/)
Linking to producthunt is needlessly indirect and feels spammy; like you're
trying to encourage people to voat you up you there.
~~~
gmemstr
Yup, I'm sorry it came across that way.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
One billion people worldwide stop breathing while they sleep - anarbadalov
https://mosaicscience.com/story/sleep-apnea-apnoea-snoring-heart-disease-breathing/
======
rpiguy
If you are tired at all during the day, get an at home sleep study as soon as
you can. Treatment makes a world of difference.
I wasn't diagnosed until I was older, but I suspect it started mildly in my
20s after a long bout of tonsillitis.
Furthermore, don't take snoring as the only sign of apnea. People assume if
you don't snore or struggle then you don't have apnea.
I never snored, I just stopped breathing for whatever reason. I got married
and my spouse noticed it. I couldn't believe it.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Learning Lisp: Start with Scheme, CL, or Arc? - binglo
I've never used any Lisp before but would like to start. PG's ANSI CL book looks good, as does Seibel's PCL book, but I've also heard great things about SICP. Then again, I see that Arc has a pretty sizable tutorial, and since it's written by PG, I'm guessing it's probably pretty good.<p>My free time is very limited, and my end goal is to write some interesting software over the course of the next 6 months or so -- and have fun doing it. :) I've only used languages like C, Java, Perl, Ruby, and Python in the past.<p>Any advice on which one to go with for someone brand new to Lisp? Does Arc come with enough tutorial material for someone brand new to Lisp in general?<p>Which is a bigger leap: to go from CL to Arc or from Scheme to Arc? Is Arc any harder to learn than the CL or Scheme?
======
DaniFong
The Arc tutorial is quite excellent. A friend used it as an introduction to
programming: great stuff.
------
hs
hmmm lisp ... i use newlisp
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Market Maturity (1997) - hliyan
http://www.uie.com/articles/market_maturity/
======
tobias3
I think there is a stage 5 now:
An Open Source project becomes good enough and takes over the market. Because
the price of the Open Source product is zero you cannot compete with
proprietary software. Additionally your software introduces licensing
overhead. You have to move your product significantly forward or move on to
other markets. This happened e.g. to the application server market. And at
some point in the future it will happen to the office suite as well.
~~~
rapidapps
Isn't that the end of stage 4? The price diminishes until it reaches 0.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Twitter API v1.1 sneakily removes existing resources - sferik
https://twitter.com/sferik/status/243996033359704064
======
f055
Isn't GET lists practically the same as GET lists/all which in turn is renamed
in 1.1 to GET lists/list ?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Concurrency in Go - chaitanyav
http://chaitanyav.github.io/2014/08/22/concurrency-with-go/
======
monoid
[http://talks.golang.org/2013/bestpractices.slide#25](http://talks.golang.org/2013/bestpractices.slide#25)
=)
~~~
chaitanyav
Thank you, Added the link to the post.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Upgrading to MacOS Sierra will break your SSH keys and lock you out - raisedadead
https://medium.freecodecamp.com/upgrading-to-macos-sierra-will-break-your-ssh-keys-and-lock-you-out-of-your-own-servers-f413ac96139a
======
gumby
umm, no. I have 1024 bit keys and they have continued to work fine from my Mac
to various servers that have the corresponding public key. (yes they should be
updated, but I have larger keys for other servers).
I use the stock ssh in /usr/bin/ssh
Perhaps you had dsa keys? Those were deprecated and support for them was
dropped.
------
jsjohnst
> You can leave this blank or add a password for a little extra security (and
> a lot more typing).
Please please stop saying things like this. If typing the password is
inconvenient to you, store it in your keychain. OS X/macOS makes this
trivially easy. Having a pass phrase on your private key is (almost) as
important as using a key with sufficient entropy.
------
rurban
Never heard of ssh-copy-id? Copy & paste public ssh keys is a kindergarden
solution.
~~~
closeparen
Needing to install something (ssh-copy-id does not ship with OSX) to copy a
little bit of text around isn't great either.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Secure your site from the “not secure” chrome/Firefox 2017 warning with this app - stilliard
http://www.downloadcrew.com/article/34753-https_checker
======
aiur3la
Link to source without the malware packaging (?):
[https://github.com/HTTPSChecker/](https://github.com/HTTPSChecker/)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
30 Years Ago They Retired at 35: An Update - JacobAldridge
http://www.nextavenue.org/30-years-ago-they-retired-35-update/
======
jpatokal
In case you were wondering how they pulled this off at 35:
_The author retired from his CPA job at KPMG to live the life of world travel
and financial freedom. When he retired in 1984 he was making in excess of
$125,000 a year. The concept works best where you have a high priced personal
residence in a hot real estate market. The premise is that you sell your high
priced house and your status car. Then you take the proceeds and invest it in
a SAFE, CONSERVATIVE investment living off the interest and never touch the
principle. You move to a lower priced area, either in the US or outside._
(from [http://www.amazon.com/Cashing-American-Dream-Paul-
Terhorst/d...](http://www.amazon.com/Cashing-American-Dream-Paul-
Terhorst/dp/0553278150))
Although that leaves it unclear how you got the high-priced house in the first
place, much less the status car (why buy one if you're going to sell it
anyway?). And the "safe, conservative" investment was cash deposits at a bank
paying 8%/year, but good luck finding that these days...
~~~
douche
> Although that leaves it unclear how you got the high-priced house in the
> first place
1984, man. Prices were half or a third then what they are now. That probably
means they originally bought the house in the 70s, when things were yet
cheaper.
I think back to my grandparents, that paid around 20k for a house around 1960.
If I were to buy an identical house today, I'd be looking at 200k minimum,
probably more like 250k, and it would be on a one acre lot, not 20.
~~~
sokoloff
That's equivalent to the effect of an average 4.25% inflation compounded over
55 years.
The 10x headline multiple seems shocking, but when you unpack it, it's not
that shocking.
~~~
protonfish
And $125,000 a year salary at 4.25% for 30 years is almost $450,000 today. It
wouldn't be a struggle retiring in 10 years if you made that today.
A single inflation rate paints an inaccurate picture when the difference
between income and living expenses increases are that dissimilar.
------
im3w1l
They didn't mention the real trick in the advice section: Don't have kids.
~~~
s3nnyy
The "early retirement community" has people who manage to retire early while
having kids. Check out
[http://www.earlyretirementextreme.com](http://www.earlyretirementextreme.com).
The real trick is living way below your means. The main cost factors for most
people are shelter, transportation and food. If you manage to lower these
three recurring expenses considerably, you can retire within 5-10 years (even
if you don`t make a six figure income).
~~~
vasilipupkin
The problem with early retirement and having kids, is that kids need to go to
school and presumably, in one place. So you can't just bounce around the world
when you have kids, or at least it's not as easy, finances aside.
~~~
orasis
My unschool and homeschool friends bounce around with their kids just fine.
------
mitchi
I read this and immediately thought of this :
Retires at 35, explores the world for 30 years
Claims Social Security at 62.
[http://weknowmemes.com/2015/05/25-ways-the-baby-boomers-
had-...](http://weknowmemes.com/2015/05/25-ways-the-baby-boomers-had-it-
easier-than-the-millennials/)
~~~
cldellow
I assumed the social security benefits aren't that good if you only worked
until 35?
In Canada, e.g., the Canada Pension Plan (our version of social security) pays
on a schedule based on how many years you worked. You must work for 39 years
to get the maximum benefit.
If you work fewer than 39 years, no consideration is afforded to whether you
worked those years at the start of your life or the end of your life. i.e.,
the time value of money is completely ignored.
Thus, I think the subjects of this article are likely being shortchanged by SS
in some ways: they contributed, say, $200K to the coffers of SS. SS then had
30 years to grow that money, but will pay out ignoring the 30 years of growth.
~~~
saalweachter
Social Security benefits require a certain minimum pay-in before you get
anything out. If you're paying in a lot, you can get your points in quite
quickly. I'm a 30-something well-to-do software engineer, and the last time
the Social Security folks sent out paper letters updating on benefits -- which
was several years ago -- I had already paid in enough to qualify for Social
Security (at 60-something), even if I stopped working today. I'll get more, of
course, if I keep working and paying in.
------
vasilipupkin
I am not sure. This seems to me a very boring way to live. Sure, it's
fantastic to travel around the world and explore different places. But, there
is also a lot of satisfaction in meaningful work. Plus, a lot of things are
really fun BECAUSE you are taking a vacation or rest away from a job.
~~~
mcjiggerlog
I think that depends on your world-view. For some they see it as it's better
to work to live, than to live to work.
------
hnnewguy
> _the couple uses Washington state (where Paul’s brother lives) as their
> address for U.S. residential purposes because there’s no state income tax._
> _Plus our benefits are grandfathered in if Congress screws around with
> Social Security._
> _" But at least now, when we go to the United States, we have coverage and
> if we get sick, we won’t be devastated financially.”_
Not sure how I feel about people taking advantage of safety net, while doing
whatever they can to avoid contributing.
~~~
a3n
Their safety net is not provided by Washington State.
They presumably worked the required number of quarters for their SS benefits,
and played by the rules at the time.
~~~
pkaye
It is playing by the rules but if everyone did it, the whole SS benefit scheme
will collapse.
~~~
dsr_
It appears that you are misunderstanding Social Security, and you may think
that the US federal government plays by the same set of fiscal rules that a
household, a corporation or a state has to use.
This article from the Washington Post can help:
[http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-
checker/wp/2014/01/...](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-
checker/wp/2014/01/08/social-security-a-guide-to-critical-questions/)
~~~
_broody
That article doesn't actually counter what the OP says. In fact it ends by
stating that SS is being more strained and giving diminishing returns as time
passes by, which sounds disturbingly like a ponzi scheme. It's unsustainable
_by design_ even without free-riders, much less with min-maxers gaming the
system to not put anything in.
~~~
chadzawistowski
I don't know why you think social security is necessarily unsustainable. It's
been running a massive surplus since the 80s. Unfortunately it was borrowed
from to finance wars in the middle east, but that's not a problem with social
security.
[http://www.accuracy.org/release/social-security-has-a-
large-...](http://www.accuracy.org/release/social-security-has-a-large-and-
growing-surplus/)
~~~
hnnewguy
> _It 's been running a massive surplus since the 80s._
When the boomers were in their prime earning years, supporting a smaller, aged
cohort.
------
digi_owl
Brings to mind the Victorian concept of "retire with competence".
Problem is that it pretty much depends on getting in the door with the rentier
economy, and not everyone can be there (unless you fancy trying to run the
world on an eternal Ponzi scheme)...
------
nathan_f77
Pretty awesome. Chiang Mai is a great city. We lived there for a month but
just moved to Uthai Thani, which is even cheaper. It's a lot quieter, but
pretty nice.
Unfortunately, you can never really settle down in Thailand, unless you marry
a Thai person. Foreigners aren't allowed to own land, although you can buy an
apartment. But even so, it must get tiring to go on visa runs every 90 days
for over 30 years.
~~~
geomark
If you have a retirement visa (age 50 years and up) or spouse visa (married to
a Thai citizen) you never have to do a visa run. For all others, it's a PITA.
Also, it's not that cheap to live in Thailand. You can live cheap if you like.
But if you want a car, TV, bottle of wine, a decent steak, etc. you pay far
more in Thailand than in the U.S.
I've been living in the Khao Yai area for more than 10 years.
Added: Something is wrong with the story of that couple in the article re:
their visa. Because the only one year visas are retirement, spouse and
business visas. They could have retirements visas at their age but no visa run
is required - you never have the leave the country at all, just renew it once
a year. If they are in the country on tourist visas, well, there is no such
thing as a one year tourist visa. There is a 60 day multi-entry tourist visa,
valid for one year, extendable by 30 days one time after which you have to
leave the country and re-enter getting another 60 days, rinse and repeat.
(Added: maybe this is what they are referring to). And you used to be able to
get 30 days visa exempt on arrival and do visa runs every 30 days
indefinitely, but they put a stop to that recently.
~~~
nathan_f77
> Also, it's not that cheap to live in Thailand.
That's an interesting perspective. My own perspective might be slightly
skewed, since we moved from San Francisco, where we were splitting $4,400 per
month for a 2 bedroom apartment.
I see what you mean about luxury items costing more, so it definitely depends
on your lifestyle. We're renting a house for $200 per month, and we've found
great meals for under a dollar at local restaurants. Going out to eat at
western restaurants rarely costs more than $5 per person.
About the visa details, I met someone in Chiang Mai who was here on a
retirement visa. He said he had to leave the country every 90 days, but I
think he mentioned that they had recently changed the rules.
~~~
geomark
Well yes, that's a pretty hefty monthly rental. I just got back from Singapore
which is even more absurdly priced. So you can definitely save a lot on
housing in comparison to some places. On the other hand, if you want to buy
then you find land prices are pretty high throughout the country, even in
areas I wouldn't live if they paid me. I compare that to friends who bought
ranch lands in the southwest U.S. - much cheaper and nicer.
But a basic car is hardly a luxury item yet costs 2X to 3X the same car in the
U.S. does due to high import tariffs. I eat at the local places for $2 (used
to be $1) but when you want a pizza you pay $10 for a small one that is no
bigger than one of those giant slices of Costco pizza in the U.S. Try a steak
of local beef and break a tooth it's so tough, so if you want a decent steak
you pay $30 at a restaurant for import. I suppose that is a bit of a luxury.
The list goes on. Some things are cheaper, others more expensive. It's just
not uniformly cheaper as many people think.
------
hatheyn
I really like the pragmatic focus on what they actually enjoy and want from
life rather than chasing conventional 'task-oriented' achievements.
Parents often push kids to be competitive and achieve, when actually there are
plenty of other ways to a fulfilling life!
------
falcolas
Meta: The static headers and footer eat up about 50% of the screen real-
estate. Makes reading this a real chore.
On topic - If you can save up some 25x your living income, it's absolutely
possible to retire from a normal job early and live off the interest of your
investments. However, it's not a trivial amount of money to manage (it takes a
savings of around 1 million to provide an "average" American household
income), and your job can quickly become managing that money to ensure you get
your interest on a regular basis.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Big data checklist: make better data-driven decisions - Kiplot
https://kiplot.com/blog/big-data
======
testing674
I feel like I understand Big Data a lot better now. It isn't just hype
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
5 Sales-Spiking Website Tweaks Gurus Don’t Know - JayInt
http://attentionthievery.informationhighwayman.com/
======
kaens
Ok, what the heck is this?
I decided to go ahead and throw an email at this to see if anything came up.
The wording sets my "scam" sensors off like mad. Maybe I just have a learned
response to "one step away", "just one click away', "don't let anything stop
you know" types of wording.
Anyhow, after seeing that the "click here to enroll for free" thing ...
actually seemed to do that, it sent me a confirmation email -- with more "red-
flag" wording, a confirmation link, _and a VCard_ on it of all things.
The link did the normal confirmation jump, and included a download to a "cheat
sheet" for creating a business website that sells.
The cheat sheet has actual content. A lot of it. A lot of it's "common sense",
and there's an interesting consistent misspelling, but it's not bullshit.
This is either a very prolonged scam, which I'm starting to doubt, or what
could be a hugely successful marketing campaign for this person and their
company. If they're being legitimate in their claim of sending out "one email
a day" with a tip to people, for free, where that tip isn't bullshit but is
just something that the type of people who respond to "red-flag" wording don't
know (or might not, or whatever), that's .... that's a huge market. That will
pay you. And you'd be "doing good", reducing ignorance.
Maybe I'm reading too much into this, maybe I'm not. Guess I'll have to wait a
few days to make a call though.
Edit: Found the product, at $197. That said, if the emails he sends out are
legit, it's a novel (to me) method of using this type of thing for sales /
marketing of a product that has any sort of substance, and it may very well be
worth $200 for the type of people that would buy it. I'm keeping an eye on
this.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: Does anyone know of any startup founded by military veterans? - pjnewton
I'm curious if there are any veteran backed/founded startups out there. I'm finding it exceptionally difficult to translate my prior military experience and communicate the value military veteran can bring to the fast paced hectic startup space.<p>If not founded by former military guys/gals does anyone out there have any experience with hiring veterans? What wast he biggest advantage? Biggest drawback?
======
rman666
See VETransfer.org
~~~
pjnewton
Thanks, I hadn't seen this site before and it looks interesting.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
AppHarbor Sets their pricing and asks for feedback. - cipherzero
http://appharbor.com/page/pricing
======
skilesare
I want to give good feedback. But I also want to be a little bit of jerk. I'm
pretty sure that I woke up this morning and produced 20MB of data before my
coffee finished brewing. Here are some things that have more than 20MB of
storage:
1987: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Macintosh_SE_b.jpg> 1995:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Zip-100a-transparent.png> 2002:
[http://reviews.cnet.com/pc-card/kodak-20-mb-
compactflash/170...](http://reviews.cnet.com/pc-card/kodak-20-mb-
compactflash/1707-3239_7-183379.html) (Note the Discontinued tag)
Ok...enough sillyness. 20MB? If you have any index on your data this is really
more like 12MB of data. I'll admit that the 20MB is free and enough to get
started with a design, but there no way you'd be able to run any sort MVP on
that amount of space. With the current lack of logging a couple hundred
visitors would fill that up in a few days with just web traffic logging.
$10/month isn't that expensive for the full 10GB...actually a great price
point....but the 20MB just looks silly.
If I were you all I'd up it to 1GB. 20MB just looks so...1992ish? Heck even
100MB would look more appealing.
Please don't take this as too much of criticism. I'm using the service and
love is so far. I'm sure you have some spreadsheet somewhere that says the
free DB should be 20MB and I'm sure that there is a very logical reason for
picking the number. But it is a bad number.
~~~
rlm
Heroku has a whopping 5 MB on the free plan.
------
latch
In short, there's a free tier, and then it's $0.05/hour.
There isn't really a concept of what you get for that
(process/memory/disk/io/bandwidth...).
At that hourly price, it's ~40% the cost of an small EC2 instance, ~170% the
price of a micro instance and ~5% the cost of an extra large.
If you aim for approx 15 apps on 1 extra large, that gives 1gb per app and
somewhere around 1/2 EC2 CU instance.
Redundancy can be added by replicating the apps to a fallback server but not
routing any traffic to them when everything is ok. If you had 15 EL servers
and distributed each app's fallback server randomly, having 1 EL server go
down would mean your 14 remaining instances would be handling 16, instead of
15, apps - not unreasonable.
Drop the EC2 prices to reserved instances, and there's suddenly room to
grow+profit.
Without knowing what you are actually getting (EBS? LB? S3?) it's _impossible_
to tell if this is a good or bad value.
Personally, deployment through git/mercurial isn't worth an even minute price
premium over straight up EC2. Heroku had autoscaling, varnish and reverse
proxy, possibly on higher margins - which I think is a large part of what
makes Heroku, well, Heroku.
~~~
troethom
I don't think Heroku has ever had autoscaling, but
<https://www.heroscale.com/> provides it as a service.
~~~
mseebach
That business model would be PaaSaaS?
~~~
Maro
You just boggled my mind.
------
barranger
What performance can I expect from a single instance? I know that your doing
shared hosting on AWS Instances, but not sure which EC2 type, nor how many
instances are being deployed to each. Without knowing that, it's hard to
comment on whether five cents an hour is worth it or not (also that is time
that the application is deployed correct, not compute time?)
~~~
runesoerensen
We're monitoring the performance of our beta users apps and will figure out a
reasonable estimate of what to expect before we begin charging. In terms of
processing power we're currently aiming at performance roughly equivalent of
1/2 EC2 CU.
The prices are for the time the application instance is live rather than
compute time.
~~~
traskjd
I really don't want this to come across as rude, as maybe I have missed
something but this sounds like you've set pricing before you actually know
what you're going to have to spend on hosting yourself?
Happy to hear how I've missed something :-)
~~~
shykes
That's a tough decision that all PaaS providers face: offer simple predictable
pricing, and face the risk of unpredictable, possibly even negative margins?
Or safely convey the infrastructure's variable costs, leaving Amazon in
control of the relationship with your customer?
The AppHarbour guys are right to focus on pricing as early as they can: it's
the hardest part. I advise the myriad of Heroku clones out there to do the
same.
~~~
lucisferre
I'll second that. Especially in the .net ecosystem, it will be much easier for
me to sell a PaaS provider to enterprise customers with a pricing model than
without.
------
johns
If you want to provide direct feedback:
<http://blog.appharbor.com/2011/1/27/preliminary-pricing-page>
------
kolektiv
Background worker and job pricing are probably more interesting to me
academically speaking. At the moment, have people been able to test those? I
didn't think so, and I would think they will be more variable in their data
usage.
Do you know yet what kind of restrictions/capabilities a background worker
process may have? External ports/consistent URI, for example?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Google Denies Social Network Called Circles Will Debut Today, Despite Report - ggordan
http://networkeffect.allthingsd.com/20110313/new-google-circles-would-have-more-nuanced-sharing-but-google-says-no-launch-imminent/
======
zeedotme
We're certain the product, which RWW discovered the name for, will be
launching at Google i/o: [http://thenextweb.com/google/2011/03/11/google-
reportedly-to...](http://thenextweb.com/google/2011/03/11/google-reportedly-
to-launch-google-me-in-may/)
------
Rantenki
Which would totally explain this new social circle google page
<http://www.google.com/s2/u/0/search/social>
~~~
seancron
That is not new. It has been around for a while now.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
How often do you talk to your close friends? - pixelart
I'm transitioning to adulthood right now, and I've found that one of the hardest parts is that I don't talk to my close friends as often anymore (or I just don't have close friends).
In high school and college, I usually talked with close friends a few times a week about various life issues. Now, I talk to them once every couple of months (and we might hang out a few times a year).<p>Is this normal? My friends and I don't have much in common anymore. While I'm not depressed, I miss having meaningful conversations with people.<p>How do adults deal with this? Apart from a significant other, do people usually have a few close friends that they can talk to about important things? I'm otherwise in a decent place mentally, but everyday interactions tend to be shallow and it gets lonely. Thanks for any perspective or advice.
======
jkaykin
I struggled with this early on. When I was in high school, I went to a college
program and realized all my friends sucked, I wanted to have friends who would
actually talk about important things not alcohol or parties, so I left them
and started looking for better friends.
As I got older, I looked for and found great friends outside of school,
friends I made through tech meetups and my job (friends of friends as well). I
now have about 10 close friends who I try to talk to at least once a week and
schedule some sort of way to get together. I have a few friends with whom I go
out to eat with at least once a month and others who I try to go to meet
ups/events with.
If you are looking for friends in your area, I would suggest using
[http://atthepool.com](http://atthepool.com) and
[http://highlig.ht](http://highlig.ht). You can meet some cool people that
way.
Once you find a couple awesome friends, schedule dinner or lunch with them on
the first/last day of every month, that way you have something to look forward
to and you know for sure that you will see your friends at least once a month.
Hope this helps!
~~~
pixelart
Yeah, it's definitely gotten harder to meet people. What has your experience
been with friends who have moved for jobs or other reasons?
I'm impressed that you talk to your close friends once a week. Are all these
friends in the local area, or do you talk to them online? I think only seeing
friends a couple of times a year in real life has led to us not talking much
anymore.
~~~
jkaykin
My experience with friends who moved away really resulted in us attempting to
communicate a lot online. For friends that I had very strong bonds with, we
would try to stay in touch any way we could and attempt to visit each other.
Friends who were just ok, eventually, we just slowly stopped talking as often.
You just have to accept it and move on.
Yes, most of my friends are in my area. I communicate with them online/text
and we try to set up things to do (even if it's just grabbing some lunch).
~~~
pixelart
Yeah, I was pretty close friends with the people who moved away, but we've
mostly stopped talking.
I think the hard part is that it takes time to develop close friendships,
especially with a full time job.
~~~
caw
For my group of friends, I was the person who moved away after college. The
rest are still together, and some of them are still roommates.
I keep in touch occasionally. A few of my friends I try to call (no one ever
seems to call me). Mostly we IM on Steam, or sometimes I hop on Ventrilo.
They're usually gaming, and while I've tried to buy the same games so we could
kind of hang out, they keep different schedules, and anything with a leveling
component they get really far ahead because they play all the time.
When I head back for whatever reason we generally try to meet up, even if it's
just grabbing food.
~~~
pixelart
Interesting. Some of my friends play games, but I don't anymore.
That actually seems to be a big disconnect. Among my friends who play games,
it seems like all their close friends play games too.
------
jister
A very good friend of mine is into glass business, the other has a motorcycle
business, one is a housewife, another worked as, well i am not sure what she
does since she left the country, but I know she is into climbing and diving. I
have other good friends doing something different from me and I have technical
friends too. We all don't have much in common but WE ARE VERY GOOD FRIENDS!
Friendship is not based on having something in common or having meaningful
conversation. It's much deeper than that. When my friends and I get together,
we don't talked about our achievements or failures. We just talked about
whatever there is to talked about. Most of it is nothing interesting. We just
enjoy the company of each other with a couple of beers and pizza.
As we grow older out commitments change. We get married, start a business and
so on. We have responsibilities. We don't get to hang out often but our
friendship remains.
~~~
pixelart
Thanks for the reply. How often do you talk to these friends? (whether online
or in real life)
I only talk to my close friends once every couple of months now, and that
makes the friendships feel much less close. I don't know much about what's
happening in their lives anymore (and vice versa).
~~~
jister
Some of them once or twice a month. Some if there's an occasion like birthdays
or christmas.
------
deadfall
This is pretty "normal" I would guess. In my experience and the fact I have
moved every three years since birth (gypsy grandmother) I have not had to many
long term friendship/bonds. I do have a good friend that I use to build cars
with but we went separate ways. He has a kid and is now a cop in a town in NC
where I use to live in. People just grow up and find different interest.
Everyone experiences life differently. I have been living in SF for 2 years
and still have yet to find a close buddy/buddies. I am a little bit of an
introvert for I assume moving around so much.
~~~
pixelart
Realistically, I do think that this is pretty normal.
That kind of depresses me though. I guess it seems odd how so many adults
don't have close friendships. I'm not sure whether it's just a common part of
adulthood, or whether it's because of cultural or other factors in the US.
------
adamzerner
this is a relevant read - [http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/fashion/the-
challenge-of-m...](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/fashion/the-challenge-of-
making-friends-as-an-
adult.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&pagewanted=all&adxnnlx=1362981828-IFeaWGqBlRzRM6qmewLA6g)
it seems that the types of interactions you're referring to require repeated,
unplanned interactions, and an environment that encourages people to let their
guard down.
~~~
pixelart
Yeah, I remember reading this. From the comments here and the comments on the
article, I guess it seems fairly representative of adult life.
------
xtrycatchx
i have spent less time talking to my close friends. However, there this one
friend who i talk most of the time when I'm at home - my wife ;)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Skeptic Physicist finds he now agrees global warming is real - hendler
http://news.yahoo.com/skeptic-finds-now-agrees-global-warming-real-142616605.html
======
marshray
I always heard the Earth was warming because we were still coming out of the
ice age from 10,000 years ago.
Seems like the relevant questions to me are how accurately are we measuring
it? What kinds of problems (or benefits) will this cause? How much of this
warming is caused by humans and CO2? How good are our models at predicting,
really? And most importantly, can we, and at what cost, should we actually
attempt to change the way things are headed?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Shareaholic v1.7 is here - More services, more options (would love your feedback) - meattle
http://blog.shareaholic.com/2009/04/23/update-shareaholic-v17-now-available-more-services-more-options/
======
meattle
Amongst numerous other additions & improvements, we’ve added the option to
turn on the Shareaholic button in the URL bar right next to the orange RSS
icon. We feel that this is a very natural place for the icon to live within
the browser. What do you think? love it/hate it/indifferent?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
App Engine releases full-text search - adrinavarro
http://googleappengine.blogspot.com.es/2012/05/looking-for-search-find-it-on-google.html
======
abeppu
Some folks wondered for a long time whether AWS would roll out a search
product, and they finally did like 4 weeks ago. And as the blogpost mentions,
full-text search has been a long time coming to App Engine. Does anyone have
insight into whether the release of CloudSearch caused the App Engine to
release this sooner than they otherwise would have?
------
krosaen
The full text capability itself is great to have added, no more rolling our
own indices / stemmers and taking StringListProperty to the max and using
hacks with parent keys[1].
That said, bummed that the compound filtering expressions are apparently not
powerful enough to find ranges [2], and therefor filter based on location.
Sigh, guess we're still stuck with geoboxes for a while longer.
[1] [http://www.billkatz.com/2009/6/Simple-Full-Text-Search-
for-A...](http://www.billkatz.com/2009/6/Simple-Full-Text-Search-for-App-
Engine)
[2]
[http://code.google.com/p/googleappengine/issues/detail?id=72...](http://code.google.com/p/googleappengine/issues/detail?id=7247)
------
diminish
interesting to see GAE from Google to have search capabilities coming so late.
I have tried to use custom search, however it does not have the same index and
quality as the google.com
------
krosaen
cool that the search expressions are s-expressions:
[https://developers.google.com/appengine/docs/python/search/o...](https://developers.google.com/appengine/docs/python/search/overview#Query_Language_Overview)
~~~
axiak
Huh? Presence of parentheses != s expressions. For starters, the expression
"foo" AND "bar" is valid, but not an s expression.
~~~
krosaen
Ha, whoops, you're right. Ironically, I jumped to assume this because
internally the "structured search" api was in fact s-expression based (at
least as of a couple years ago). Looks like they made it infix for the public
api? WTH
~~~
axiak
IMHO an s-expression api would be awesome, but I think any public facing input
would have to allow the "conventional" format. I guess App Engine doesn't want
to force app developers to make that conversion.
------
salimmadjd
You know what's wrong with this post? The date! If it was May 8, 2010 instead
of May 8, 2012 it would have been something.
------
joshu
hooray! i have been hoping for this for a while.
~~~
pw
Why?
~~~
joshu
It makes a bunch of app ideas that I had feasible.
~~~
ericd
Was Sphinx too much of a PITA to make those workable before?
~~~
nl
Sphinx, Solr[1] etc cannot be run on AppEngine.
[1] Technically you can make Solr run by using a AppEngine port of Lucene and
a lot of hacking of the Solr code, but it doesn't work well.
~~~
ericd
Yeah, I just didn't figure that GAE's limitations would hold him back on a
cool idea, so I was wondering if this made cool things much, much easier. The
alternative explanation would be that he uses GAE to the exclusion of all else
nowadays.
~~~
joshu
I meant for pet projects is all. I spend too much on VMs otherwise.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Brazil education standards contribute to learning crisis - tokenadult
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-brazil-bad-education-20121118,0,623172.story
======
bulletmagnet
You can thank this guy for it: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paulo_Freire>
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Welcome to the Next Level of Bullshit - jelliclesfarm
http://nautil.us/issue/89/the-dark-side/welcome-to-the-next-level-of-bullshit
======
reilly3000
At risk of being too pedantic even for HN, I have to say that a news article
written by GPT-3 isn't "Fake News". Maybe you could called it "artificially
authored news" or something, but nothing about synthesizing and regurgitating
words is inherently fake. "Fake News" is a loaded term that fact-checkers tend
to avoid for its ambiguity. Generally its usage refers to disinformation,
which is the use of media to intentionally deceive the reader for political or
social motivations.
Its terrifying to imagine artificially authored disinformation, but from my
sparse understanding of GPT-3, it wouldn't be the right tool for crafting
novel disinformation without a lot of inputs for its user. Disinformation is
dangerous when represented as truth by platforms with credibility, and no
content creation tool can garner and wield credibility on its own. That said,
it could certainly wreak havoc with mass commenting campaigns and such.
------
warent
"GPT-3 is a marvel of engineering due to its breathtaking scale. It contains
175 billion parameters (the weights in the connections between the “neurons”
or units of the network) distributed over 96 layers. It produces embeddings in
a vector space with 12,288 dimensions."
I don't know much about AI, though I do know about programming, and to me this
vaguely smells like "our program is so great because it has 1 million lines of
code!"
Does the number of parameters, dimensions, etc, really have anything to do
with how breathtaking and marvelous something like this is?
~~~
donw
It does.
We can see a very strong correlation between brain size, and overall
intelligence within the animal kingdom. The larger the brain, the smarter the
animal.
Effectively, GPT-3 has a bigger brain.
~~~
neatze
you statement is just false, [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain-to-
body_mass_ratio#/medi...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain-to-
body_mass_ratio#/media/File:Brain-
body_mass_ratio_for_some_animals_diagram.svg)
This without including animals such as parrots and octopuses.
~~~
donw
I stand corrected!
Pretty sure it holds for hominids, though.
~~~
neatze
If read this correctly, it does hold in very narrow sense, when compared
within hominid evolutionary path only.
In general size of brain is proportional to body mass, more sensors bigger
brain, has nothing to do with intelligent effective behavior, to large extent,
arguably.
To best of my knowledge there is no known method that would estimate minimum
amount of neurons even for simple problems, let alone complex one, however
there is convergence of some form cerebral cortex between species, but octopi
break this model to large extent (might we wrong here). Things get even more
complicated when you account for space between individual neurons.
------
curiousgal
The biggest bulkshit, to me, is people confusing pattern matching with
intelligence. Sure, the model is outputing coherent text, but it has no
fucking clue what it's talking about.
~~~
GarrisonPrime
Fair enough, but the argument could be made that even human-level intelligence
is just an advanced degree of pattern matching.
------
johndoe42377
Well, this could be explained in a few meta-principles or just principles of a
proper (non-abstract) philosophy.
1\. A map is not a territory. Weighted connections are not semantic relations.
2\. Environment and its laws and constraints comes first.
3\. Language is a tool of describing What Is, not a tool of producing what
could be.
4\. Like untyped lambda calculus, applying anything to anything produce
bullshit.
5\. A proper use of a language require a type discipline which reflect the
laws and constraints of the environment, and reject sentences with is not
type-correct.
Everything else will produce a bullshit. Theoretical physics and other
abstraction based fields are thus flawed.
------
axegon_
For years we've been hearing how AI will build robots and wipe out humanity
and the bollocks that is the trolley problem. I remember when I was reading
the Unsupervised Cross-Domain Image Generation[1] paper and my immediate
thought was "yep, I can see this going south". And sure enough, not long after
deepfakes became a thing. GPT-3 is absolutely astonishing in terms of it's
capabilities and I'd love to be able to dig into it's inner workings and
scroll through it's code. The truth is there are three stoppers for the large
majority of people who would love to exploit it.
1\. Data. For better or worse obtaining a dataset that big isn't a great deal
if you really want to. Gutenberg project, wiki corpus, the reddit dumps -
difficult but definitely doable.
2\. Costs - training the model costs $5M which is a considerable amount of
money by anyone's standard(rich people will also have a second thought when
they hear that number). But there is a catch - the hardware is becoming more
and more accessible. Remember when a server grade GPU like P100 was ~10k a
piece? And now the high end 30X series are 1/10th of that and have better
specs... Adjust those numbers and you get something close to 20x price
decrease in the course of 4 years(iirc p100 came out 2016).
3\. Finding the people with the adequate knowledge to build something like
this. This I think is the only blocker at this point. Realistically we are
talking a few dozen people on earth that have the mental capacity to build
something like this.
If there is one thing that I see as a potential threat in this field:
information losing credibility.
[1] [https://arxiv.org/abs/1611.02200](https://arxiv.org/abs/1611.02200)
~~~
phobosanomaly
Regarding point number 3, I wonder if there might be more than we think, but
they are sequestered in various defense projects in different countries around
the globe?
~~~
peterlk
I think there are probably more than a dozen people, but they are working
other projects. GPT-3 is cool, but it's not really commercially viable yet.
There are lots of more immediately profitable projects to work on in the large
enterprises that employ these capable people.
------
leshokunin
We tried GPT-3 for our email startup (Mailscript), initially as a fancy way to
detect and understand the content of an email. That didn't work out great,
because it's really prone to false positives and ultimately requires more work
than doing fancy Regex. We're hopeful it will solve other problems we'll run
into though, but we're not going to push for it before we find the problems.
I'll share the lessons learned from the implementation if that's interesting
to people here.
------
phobosanomaly
Maybe bullshit could wind up being useful in unexpected ways.
It could be an interesting tool to use to workshop ideas.
For example, if you were trying to work your way through an idea, you could
throw various aspects of your idea at it, and it would throw back a slightly
different take.
Rubber-duck debugging, but the duck talks back, and you can throw your
fundamental assumptions about life at it.
------
grensley
Oh god, was this written by GPT-3 too?
Feels like we're headed for the next level of SEO dark ages, where the shovel-
ware content that was written by humans before can now be automated.
~~~
snuxoll
I was literally sitting waiting for the punchline, and was mildly
disappointed.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
A Photo Gallery of MeteorWrongs - apsec112
http://meteorites.wustl.edu/meteorwrongs/meteorwrongs.htm
======
themodelplumber
I like it. There's a huge contingent here on HN that learns best via
"wrongness demos" like these. In software they are often packaged as "anti-
patterns". You could describe meteors all day, to the sound of their yawns.
Now get into "what people _think_ is a meteor, but is actually something
else..." and you get their attention.
The only problem with this approach (it's really more like an information-
orientation) is that it can prematurely lead to pitchforks. Where some
scientists have the problem of being too open-minded, scientists who think
this way, on the other hand, are going to try to replicate your study out
behind the shed, just before you get to dinner. Then, the moment you start
talking about your research or heaven forbid, your meteorite
collection...wham! :-)
------
ggm
I had forgotten this wonderful site. It's the doctor Bronner's of meteorite
info.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Libvirt – The Unsung Hero of Cloud Computing (2013) - vikrantrathore
https://vyomtech.com/2013/12/17/libvirt_the_unsung_hero_of_cloud_computing.html
======
guerby
We're currently migrating from VMware to libvirt, we discovered the cockpit
project and cockpit-machines to manage VMs:
[https://cockpit-project.org/](https://cockpit-project.org/)
cockpit-machines is available in a recent version in debian backports,
installing it is trivial, no configuration,
[https://hostname:9090/](https://hostname:9090/) and just works.
RedHat announced that cockpit will be the long term successor of virt-manager:
[https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/managing-virtual-machines-
rhe...](https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/managing-virtual-machines-rhel-8-web-
console)
[https://blog.wikichoon.com/2020/06/virt-manager-
deprecated-i...](https://blog.wikichoon.com/2020/06/virt-manager-deprecated-
in-rhel.html)
cockpit has frequent releases, latest:
[https://cockpit-project.org/blog/cockpit-227.html](https://cockpit-
project.org/blog/cockpit-227.html)
It hasn't all the features of virt-manager, far from it, but looks promising.
~~~
servilio
> RedHat announced that cockpit will be the long term successor of virt-
> manager
For RHEL, virt-manager will still be developed independently.
~~~
indolering
> For RHEL, virt-manager will still be developed independently.
By whom? The _vast_ majority of contributions are paid for by Red Hat [0].
[0]: [https://github.com/virt-manager/virt-
manager/graphs/contribu...](https://github.com/virt-manager/virt-
manager/graphs/contributors)
------
ohazi
If you haven't tried it, the "Virtual Machine Manager" GUI [1] is also
surprisingly usable on Desktop Linux. I use it with both Windows and Linux
images, and getting it to work with the usual guest extension niceties is
straightforward.
From what I remember, getting VirtualBox or VMware to launch and run properly
after a few months of automatic upgrades and not launching your images for a
while was always kind of a gamble. With libvirt, everything just seems to
work, and your images are just ready to go when you need them.
[1] [https://virt-manager.org/](https://virt-manager.org/)
~~~
throwaway8941
>With libvirt, everything just seems to work
Strictly speaking, you have qemu to thank for that. libvirt is just a frontend
for several hypervisors, including qemu (which is what typically used).
~~~
bonzini
Libvirt is also responsible for keeping the guest exactly the same after
upgrades; a basic QEMU command line does not guarantee that the guest hardware
remains the same when you upgrade to a newer version, while Libvirt uses the
more complicated and less human-friendly options to ensure that.
Libvirt does a lot more for QEMU than for other hypervisors, so much that
libvirtd's initial name was qemud.
------
amscanne
While I respect the job that libvirt does (it works — high praise for
software), it’s unfortunate that it is also the answer to the question “how
can I represent all these virtualized things using XML?”, which was in fashion
when libvirt was created.
It’s also a bit misleading to characterize cloud providers as building on
libvirt. Libvirt is useful as an mostly hypervisor-agnostic wrapper, which is
super useful for enterprise on-prem software, but kinda of the opposite of
what big providers need and build for themselves.
I wonder what we will look back on as the XML of today. Everything is
schemaless JSON and YAML; surely we’ll look back and wonder WTF everyone was
thinking? But alas, it’s probably not a data format at all. Only time will
tell.
~~~
foepys
JSON is a bad configuration format simply for the fact that it doesn't support
comments. Some parsers do but most don't. XML for all its verbosity and
complexity at least has comments where I can quickly try out configuration
changes without needing to save the old configuration somewhere else.
Hell, even INI files had support for comments and were just as expressional as
JSON. I wonder why we regressed in that regard. Was it just because of the
success of JavaScript and readily available JSON parsers? Because I'd argue
that an INI parser is just as easy to write.
~~~
japanuspus
This is exactly why TOML [0] is gaining traction as a simple configuration
file format. Rust's cargo has been TOML from day one (`Cargo.toml`) and Python
is moving this way with (`pyproject.toml`).
For more general data structures, remember that JSON is a true subset of YAML
[1]: Switch to a YAML parser and you can start optionally adding comments to
your files while still being compatible with legacy input.
[0] [https://toml.io/en/](https://toml.io/en/) [1]
[https://yaml.org/](https://yaml.org/)
~~~
eska
Yaml is generally derided as too complex and transforming data in unintended
ways.
I see a lot of Rust programmers preferring RON over TOML because it is much
less complex and doesn't have multiple ways to express the same thing
[https://crates.io/crates/ron](https://crates.io/crates/ron)
------
xfennec
We've build our own automated hosting infrastructure* a few years ago on top
of libvirt. Using the libvirt API was a breeze and libvirt is rock solid since
day one for us, I can only recommend this project.
* Shameless plug: [https://github.com/OnitiFR/mulch](https://github.com/OnitiFR/mulch)
We're using libvirt-go binding (Daniel Berrangé and his team is doing a
excellent job maintaining it!), and KVM/QEMU hypervisior. For a small team
like us, it's incredibly valuable to have access to such powerful tools in a
such easy way.
~~~
appleflaxen
Mulch looks super cool; you have some great ideas!
------
CSDude
Libvirt is really nice. For linux, I also recommend reading the man page of
Qemu directly to learn more about internals, it helped me understand a lot. Of
course you have to take care networking, disk management on your own but it
can be really simple. [https://linux.die.net/man/1/qemu-
kvm](https://linux.die.net/man/1/qemu-kvm)
~~~
guerby
There's a nice tool to get qemu command lines from libvirt xml:
virsh domxml-to-native qemu-argv myvm.xml
~~~
tarruda
Nice, thanks for sharing!
------
catern
I really doubt that AWS is using libvirt. They almost certainly have their own
abstraction.
But still, I agree that libvirt is great; I wrote about it here:
[http://catern.com/posts/libvirt.html](http://catern.com/posts/libvirt.html)
~~~
vikrantrathore
Might be true, but don’t see any open source work from Amazon in public domain
which shows they built their own libraries from scratch to manage Xen and
cloud management in early years from 2008.
Indeed it’s 2020 and yet to see any major open source work from Amazon (which
has benefited a lot from open source itself using Perl, CPAN, C, Java, Linux
etc.). In this respect IBM, google, Microsoft, Facebook and Apple are far
better. Here even Oracle fare better due to acuisition of MySQL and sun
microsystems.
I believe the major contribution from amazon might be hiring some of the open
source developers to build proprietary systems. Those developers in spare time
or weekends continue their open source project, but I do not have any study or
articles on it.
Based on my information in 2013, amazon built their cloud using Xen hypervisor
and related tools and libraries. Libvirt is one of the key libraries providing
beautiful abstractions and language bindings to manage xen on Linux node at
that time.
It will be nice if you can point to code from Amazon on low level library like
Libvirt for cloud computing.
~~~
lmz
What makes you think it was libvirt instead of the Xen native xm / xl tools?
------
willscott
for the last month (v6.6.0 and v6.7.0) libvirt has been released with a new
key 453B65310595562855471199CA68BE8010084C9C (first seen:2020-07-20). It
hasn't been signed or verified by any other source in libvirt / redhat yet.
[https://www.redhat.com/archives/libvirt-
announce/2020-July/m...](https://www.redhat.com/archives/libvirt-
announce/2020-July/msg00006.html)
That is preventing downstream distros, like arch, from admitting these new
releases into their package repos.
Critical infrastructure, indeed.
~~~
silly-silly
Key exists on pgp.ocf.berkeley.edu.
------
shekharshan
I couldn't understand this: "Domain is an instance of an operating system (or
subsystem in case of container virtualization like OpenVZ and lxc) running on
a virtualized machine provided by the hypervisor"
So the domain itself is a virtual machine? What makes it different from other
guest virtual machinse?
~~~
rwmj
It's unfortunate that when libvirt was originally started (2005) it was a
wrapper around Xen, and in Xen a VM is called a domain.
------
dmacvicar
If you want to use libvirt with terraform, this is the project I started to
learn Go years ago:
[https://github.com/dmacvicar/terraform-provider-
libvirt](https://github.com/dmacvicar/terraform-provider-libvirt)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Evoke - A crash course in changing the world. - lzimm
http://www.urgentevoke.com/
======
PostOnce
There's a red arrow on the comic that turns the page. The same red arrow is at
the bottom and takes you to a login screen.
Momentarily confusing design. It causes lost traffic.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Imperial College pandemic code: “ thousands of lines of undocumented C” - somerandomness
https://twitter.com/neil_ferguson/status/1241835454707699713
======
jjgreen
The usual estimate is 15 defects per thousand lines of code. I really hope
that we've not destroyed the economy on a operator precedence error ...
~~~
chewz
Won't be first time that happen.
Rogoff's Excel error destroyed entire Greek economy however IMF appologized
latter.
[https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-04-18/faq-
reinh...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-04-18/faq-reinhart-
rogoff-and-the-excel-error-that-changed-history)
[https://www.theguardian.com/business/2013/jun/05/imf-
admit-m...](https://www.theguardian.com/business/2013/jun/05/imf-admit-
mistakes-greek-crisis-austerity)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
3% ROI for selling my iPhone app using MochiAds - avgarrison
http://andrewgarrison.com/Blog/tabid/62/EntryId/4/MochiAds-Experiment.aspx
======
gyardley
No one has been able to advertise paid applications on the iPhone platform and
get a positive return from the advertising itself. The name of the game is to
generate enough downloads to get onto a 'top paid app' leaderboard in your
category, which will then expose you to a bunch of buyers who wouldn't have
seen your app otherwise. In other words, you're indirectly paying for
placement.
All cost-per-click networks will have abysmal conversion rates for paid apps.
Cost-per-install networks shift this risk from you to the network, since you
only pay per install. However, paid apps advertising on straight cost-per-
install networks delivers minimal volume, which makes them not worth doing -
while the risk to you is gone, the conversion rate still sucks. Some cost-per-
install networks (Tapzilla, Apperang) require you to pay them more than the
cost of the app, so they can bribe users to install the app. This works, but
it automatically results in a negative ROI on the advertising itself - since
they take a cut, Apple takes a cut, and the user gets reimbursed through
PayPal. If your spend isn't enough to get you onto a leaderboard and get that
sweet organic traffic, you wasted your money. Right now these user-bribing
networks are still small, so this is a real risk. Buy from everyone
simultaneously.
Happily, there's a lot more options for free applications. If you've figured
out how to make sufficient money from your users through virtual goods sales
(like one YC company, Addmired, although there are many others), and therefore
can afford to advertise, there's many cost-per-install options you can use to
effectively buy placement - Flurry (which is mine), TapJoy, MDotM, Free App A
Day, many others. Again, the prudent-but-flush developer buys from a lot of
sources simultaneously to ensure their application ends up on the front page
of iTunes.
------
patio11
The economics of CPC advertising are punishing at low customer LTV, unless you
are getting unbelievably cheap clicks. I wouldn't be able to make the math
work well for BCC at $.10 a click, and I have four years of conversion
optimization and $30 price points to fall back on.
~~~
malloreon
Your quality score must be 10/10 on all your keywords.
~~~
prawn
Does that necessarily follow? Are you assuming that he does or can get 10c
clicks?
~~~
patio11
I've spent about $8,000 in 2010 six to eight cents at a time. You don't
literally need 10QS to do so, but a generally high QS is one factor. Others
include Conversion Optimizer, several years of history, rigorous pruning of
nonperforming keywords, being in a niche which has lowish competition for the
keywords I care about, being able to outspend other competitors through having
a higher price point, etc.
Incidentally, I am not very good at AdWords.
~~~
malloreon
I've spent about $6,000,000 on adwords in 2010 six to eight cents at a time,
and you're better than you think at it.
------
andre3k1
Andrew, you completely miscalculated your ROI:
(gain - cost) / cost = ROI
($4 - $100) / $100 = -.96
Your ROI was therefore -96% and not 3%.
Sorry to hear about your terrible returns, but thanks for sharing nonetheless.
------
amadiver
Could part of the issue be the ad? I don't mean to offend, but it didn't seem
like it would inspire many clicks. You might want to give a better indication
of what the game is about, and give a really strong CTA (call to action).
Something like "CLICK HERE" usually does the trick.
~~~
patio11
Getting clicks is not his issue if they are happy to drain a hundred bucks in
a day. The issue is that he needs to convert about 20 - 30% of the clicks to
purchasers to make the math work at his price point. That is extraordinarily
high.
~~~
amadiver
Ah -- you're right. I now see that the app sells for 99 cents.
To slightly rephrase: even without counting Apple's and LinkShare's cut, the
developer would still need a 10% purchase rate just to break even (10 cents *
10 people = 1 purchase) (which is just as ridiculously high as a 20-30%
conversion rate as far as I know).
------
benologist
You probably paid for a lot of clicks from people who were curious but don't
have devices, and of course you might lose people on your page in the app
store.
I would suggest a better creative and more importantly, since you're PPC put
the app's price on it so casual browsers and people who don't buy apps won't
click thru - "ON SALE!! $normalprice" in one of those red starry-circle things
might help a lot.
------
dtran
You should check out Tapzilla - <http://tapzilla.com> (YC S2010) - you only
pay for actual app installs rather than paying $100 for 994 clicks, which
leads to 4 installs (I had no idea install rates per click were as low as
0.40%!). They just launched on Techcrunch last week
([http://techcrunch.com/2010/10/13/tapzilla-offers-daily-
deals...](http://techcrunch.com/2010/10/13/tapzilla-offers-daily-deals-for-
paid-mobile-apps/)).
Edit: I can't claim to be an expert on mobile advertising, but it doesn't seem
like traditional CPC/CPMs really work in this space. I'm on a mobile device,
which means lots of accidental taps, and if I randomly click on an ad that
catches my eye, chances are I'm not going to want to install the app from the
app store right then and there (although I guess this also means your 4
installs could be a low stat since users might return to install the app later
without going through the Linkshare affiliate link).
------
lionhearted
Andrew, thanks for sharing your numbers man. Raw numbers are one of the most
valuable things for learning.
3% ROI isn't great from a cash perspective, but there's other benefits you're
getting - those 100,000 impressions are potentially worth something for people
recognizing your product later, then there's getting more reviews, potential
word of mouth, etc. Also, someone that checked it out first from the ad might
buy later, especially if they get repeated exposure.
The danger with such a low return is that if you're not watching carefully,
you could run in the red pretty quickly and lose money. But as long as you're
above break even and paying attention, your real ROI is probably a bit higher
than that 3% considering the other positive effects.
Edit: Wait a minute, you got 4 sales... do you mean you spent $100 and got $3
in return? I was thinking you got $103 in return... if you're in the hole $97,
that's utterly abysmal and discard the rest of my comment. No positive
secondary effects gonna make up for that.
~~~
avgarrison
I'm really embarrassed that I used the wrong number for the ROI. I fixed the
article, but unfortunately I can't change the title of this link on Hacker-
News. Hopefully I don't lead people astray making them think that MochiAds is
a viable option for advertising their iPhone apps!
------
avgarrison
Has anyone had any success advertising their iPhone apps? I'm disappointed
MochiAds didn't yield a higher ROI. It seems like their ads could be more
effective, considering they are blasted at the user, in the center of the
content they are looking at.
~~~
hboon
I had depressing ROI with advertising my iPhone app on AdMob. I can't remember
the exact figure, but depressing is the word I can think of to describe it.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Marc Andreessen denies existence of middle class - asanwal
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2012/12/marc-andreessen-and-the-middle-class.html
======
henrikschroder
Whenever I've discussed class with my friends, it's always the case that the
people who were born upper-middle class, and have stayed there, are completely
oblivious to notions of class. They don't see the class society, and they
often don't even know which class they belong to themselves.
Whereas the friends that are working class or lower-middle class, or have made
a class journey, they know perfectly well which class they belong to, and they
acknowledge the class society. Likewise, members of the upper class are also
aware of the class society and their place in it.
It's just the upper-middle that are clueless, because the values that are
characteristic for them, the optimism and the trust, is what causes them to be
blind to it. And since Marc Andreesen belongs to that class, he might suffer
from the same blindness. (I skimmed the original article, and it was very
light on context as to why he said that...)
(As a sidenote, I'm talking about social class from a European perspective,
which is different from the US perspective in that here, your values and
network are more important factors for your class than your income bracket.)
------
CurtHagenlocher
Although I think the headline "gotcha" statement is pretty ridiculous, his
point about the 50s is not. For a combination of reasons, it was possible at
that time to get a job straight out of high school at a place like Ford and
make a very comfortable living. The circumstances that enabled this were
1) High domestic consumer demand for goods as a result of the baby boom and
following the low-demand period of the Depression and the constrained-supply
period of the war.
2) Negligible competition from imports, in part because most of the likely
suspects were still a long way from recovering from the war.
3) A tight labor market resulting from the high level of growth. Growth --
particularly population growth -- as a driver of wages was noted way back in
the 18th century by Adam Smith.
None of these are true in the United States today.
~~~
netcan
Another perspective on this is that it's all relative. It's hard to compare
wages across different times, but a lot of things that were considered part of
a "very comfortable living" are still pretty easy to obtain: kitchen
appliances, cars, televisions, frozen vegetables, a family meal out.
The reason the 50s in the US have such an association is that they were a lot
better than the 30s & 40s, everyone's frame of reference. Also, cars enabled
suburbs, supermarkets and other efficiencies.
------
tokenizer
Well, everyone knows Marc Andreessen has extreme Randist views. I'd say it
borders on a Machiavellian worldview, especially considering he's apart of the
class which has the most influence, so it's not an evil view, but rather a
pragmatic view that would benefit him.
Unfortunately for him, the idea that the middle class doesn't exist is
incorrect. I know because according to some sources, almost half of the world
now fits in this class. Source:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_class#Recent_growth_of_t...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_class#Recent_growth_of_the_global_middle_class)
When you also factor in that more and more young people are viewing excess
spending and wealth after meeting ones needs as excessive and look down upon
it, then you could also point to a future where we actually shift from this
purely capitalist view to a more social capital view point.
Regardless of what you think, it's all speculation.
~~~
rjknight
Not that Marc Andreessen is necessarily /right/, but the argument that the
middle class "definitely exists" is, like any statement in sociology, rather
difficult to prove.
In fact, "middle class" means different things in different places. In
Britain, "middle class" generally refers to doctors, lawyers, bankers, senior
government officials and many entrepreneurs. The higher rank "upper class" is
historically reserved for genuine aristocrats - if you're not a Lord,
Viscount, Baronet etc. then you're not upper class, no matter how wealthy you
are. Richard Branson is "middle class" by this definition. Essentially,
British middle-classness is about values rather than economic status; even a
poor person can be middle class if they listen to Radio 4. (I simplify, but
not by much).
Marxists (again, simplifying) generally describe the "middle class" as being a
fairly narrow band of people who benefit from capitalism by virtue of
occupying privileged positions - bankers, CEOs and so on - without actually
being capitalists (owners of capital) themselves. In Marxist analysis, this
middle class is effectively bribed to support capitalism by being rewarded
with power over their fellow workers, but this power is always exercised on
behalf of the capitalists. Weirdly, this idea of a narrow middle class of
functionaries acting in close concert with [venture] capitalists is pretty
close to the Andreessen world view as described in the OP!
If we accept the mainstream American definition of middle class as being about
income levels, then Andreessen can still be correct if we read him as saying
that the middle class does not /inevitably/ exist, or is not /inevitably/ as
large as it is now. Falling median income in the US could, if continued,
result in the eventual shrinkage of the middle class, or the redefinition of
'middle class' to include poorer people.
~~~
Turing_Machine
"even a poor person can be middle class if they listen to Radio 4."
If I understand the British system correctly, a poor person can even be upper
class if he happens to be a Viscount whose family has fallen on hard times. Is
that right?
~~~
_mhp_
Yes. A substantial fraction of the upper classes are quite poor, for many
reasons, not least the rising costs of maintaining a family home. Some even
turn to TV to help defray the costs, such as Francis Fulford in the series
'The F __*ing Fulfords' (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fucking_Fulfords>).
You can probably find clips on Youtube.
------
netcan
I think phrasing this in terms of "middle class" is off. It sounds like he's
got the seed of something, but it isn't fully thought out.
It's true that the world of the 50s-80s is done. It's true that there are
fewer jobs where employees above a minimum standard of competence are
interchangeable. Factory workers with decent aptitude that arrives on time &
doesn't steal does not vary much from another one. I think these kinds of jobs
is what he is defining as middle class.
But, the more common definition of middle class is bigger than ever. Most
engineers would generally be considered some flavour of middle class by most
people.
BTW, I recently heard an interesting argument that suggests it's too late to
compete based on cheaper less regulated labour markets at this point, even for
low wage countries. Unskilled labour is decreasing as a percentage of total
manufacturing costs and is unlikely to draw in manufacturers.
------
antihero
Lowering the minimum wage is often suggested by people who are not competing
for jobs on minimum wage in order to support themselves.
Do they really believe wages will go up if companies can pay people less?
Absurd.
~~~
FelixP
I believe that the argument supporting lowering or eliminating minimum wages
is that doing so will increase employment, not wages.
~~~
antihero
So there's lots of people who can barely get by if at all?
------
TYPE_FASTER
Wouldn't lowering the minimum wage require raising taxes to pay for social
services? The minimum wage is not a living wage in many parts of the US.
~~~
accountoftheday
So what if it does?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Looking for a co-founder? post here (3 rules apply) - sharpshoot
Ok with all the cofounder finding going on. I thought i'd start a useful thread.<p>There are 3 rules<p>1. Put in your location in the comments
2. If there is someone in your local area looking for a cofounder meet them this weekend.
3. Not too much spiel - keep it fairly enigmatic<p>Three rules. Go forth and conquer..
======
JesseAldridge
I know pg says you need co-founders, but I have a feeling that partnering with
a _stranger_ will hurt your chances of success more than it will help. I
remember Jessica saying a major cause of death in startups was founder
disputes (link: [http://www.grid7.com/archives/189_podcast-28-jessica-
livings...](http://www.grid7.com/archives/189_podcast-28-jessica-livingston-
of-y-combinator.html), around the 14 minute mark).
~~~
apexauk
I co-founded our startup after reading an ad for a hacker and convincing the
other guy to take me on as a partner instead of employee - we met for the
first time 2 years ago to talk about the startup that would be, today we've
got an angel-backed team. Meet new people and start work with them - it can
work, you'll soon find out if it doesn't. Keep in mind looking for people with
complimentary qualities though - I put our success 100% down to how we each
have a responsibility for well-defined "halves" of the company - me product &
tech, him sales, marketing, community, legal, biz dev etc.
~~~
sharpshoot
right on. Jesse's excuses above can be attributed to a lack of balls in
changing his situation.
Don't sit on the fence. Make stuff happen. This president's day weekend is
finding a cofounder weekend...
------
burnout1540
Okay, I'll start. I'm 24 and living in San Francisco. I'm a programmer but
would like to find another technical person to work with. I have three ideas
for a startup:
1\. An easy software solution for multivariate testing web pages. 2\. A bid
management tool for PPC. I'm thinking something like www.efrontier.com, but
for small and medium sized businesses. 3\. Totally different from the top two,
but I'm interested in a personalized (or well-balanced) news site. Findory
would be the best comparison. Of course, it failed, so I am a little bit
hesitant and I think relying on advertising as your only revenue source is
very risky. If you're interested in the latest technology that could be used
in this area, check out <http://www.cs.utoronto.ca/~hinton/absps/sh.pdf>
My email address is in my profile.
~~~
cperciva
_My email address is in my profile._
The email address in your profile is only visible to you and the YC
management.
~~~
cawel
Then, when editing one's HN profile, it could indicate it better (whether the
info is shown publicly or not).
~~~
dcurtis
But News.YC prides itself on having both a terrible user interface and a
terrible user experience.
What kind of site calls a feature "noprocrast" without giving any detailed
information about what it does? Only news.yc!
\--edit
I wonder why I am being modded down. Maybe I said it too sarcastically.
News.YC really does have a terrible interface. Look at the account settings
page-- imagine yourself as a user who has never been there before. It's
confusing and poorly documented. I love this site for the content and the
simplicity, but Paul Graham is a programmer and spent very little time on the
user experience, which makes sense. I don't blame him.
But it is still a bad interface. I'm pretty sure 99% of people who fill out
the "email" field expect their email to somehow be visible to other users.
It's right next to another field that IS visible.
~~~
DaniFong
Shiny graphics do not a user experience make.
~~~
dcurtis
Of course not. Craigslist has an amazing masterpiece of an interface and uses
no icons/pictures at all.
~~~
DaniFong
There seems to be some disagreement over what we mean by 'user interface' and
'user experience'. Those who downmodded you probably thought 'I like using YC
news just fine thanks.'
When I hit the little ycn button on my dash, i'm immediately greeted with a
list of interesting articles, flanked by comments that are worth reading.
That's the most important part of the user experience for us, so here we stay.
~~~
dcurtis
Ah. The content here is great. I'm not denying that YC is awesome.
It just has a sub-par interface. Compared to other sites, it has a terrible
UI. It's not very user friendly, and it could be much more so.
------
asisproperty
I'm a technology entrepreneur in Provo, UT. I'm starting a "master-mind" group
here with other entrepreneurs, business owners, or executives of start-up's. I
want to keep it to under 10 people for now. If you're not familiar with the
master-mind concept, it's where entrepreneurs sit down all (in our case
Saturday once a month) day and brainstorm on eachothers' business ideas.
John D. Rockefeller attributed most of his success to his frequent master-mind
meetings with other business owners. In fact, 90% of what we now know as
Rockefeller's achievements came after Thomas Edison joined his master-mind
group.
If you are interested, send me an email and include your phone number:
[email protected]
~~~
sharpshoot
so you aren't looking for a cofounder? Then i don't think this is relevant on
this thread.
------
zenlinux
I live in southeast New Hampshire, about an hour and a half drive from Boston.
I'm interested in meeting people who are involved with the intersection of
political activism and technology. I'm working on a web application to help
grassroots groups run letter writing campaigns and various other activities. I
enjoy working with Ruby and Rails and also run the NHRuby.org user group. Drop
me a line at sgarman at zenlinux dot com.
------
duke
1\. México. Will move as needed to get text twext.
2\. Este fin de semana en San Miguel de Allende. La semana que entra en
México, D.F. para <http://consol.org.mx>, buscando programador para
<http://twext.com/gig>
3\. <http://twext.com/overview> wants great hacker to add value to unicode
texts by formatting them twext. Why? So we can more easily learn natural
language like Español, Français, Português, etc etc. So we can communicate
better. Twext text works on computers and prints on paper. Today, a billion
people are learning English.
a.)
[http://olpcnews.com/content/localization/learning_language.h...](http://olpcnews.com/content/localization/learning_language.html)
b.) <http://more.read.fm/more_language#why.3F>
4\. Spiel: Lisp?
------
ph0rque
Hailing from State College, PA (home of Penn State) here. Working on an app
that aims to be a one-stop shop for open source learning: a cross between
Wikipedia (for students) and SourceForge (for teachers); with courses,
lectures, classes, and tutorials that anyone can create, edit and use.
Unfortunately, I was an absolute noob when I came up with the idea ~8 months
ago, so I am learning as I go along (ironically, what I really need is
something like ezLearnz to help accelerate my learning). As such, progress is
slower than I expected; I hoped to have launched ezLearnz by February, but I
still have some development to do. Hopefully, the launch will occur within a
week, give or take a few days, at <http://beta.ezlearnz.com> . I'm developing
in RoR, so a RoR developer would be ideal.
My contact details are in my (public) profile.
------
ubudesign
Santa Monica, CA.
If you are creating or have a nice idea for a client based on the webdav
protocal (web-based or desktop), we would be interested to work with you. We
have the server implemented already which works with existing clients and
developing other clients
------
rosy720
Looking for a Lead Developer for the coolest new music site. We're 2 fun,
music obsessed girls looking for the right engineer to make our great idea a
reality. We're located in San Francisco. email rose at imthemusic dot com
------
fergusom
Three liberating real-world app ideas on the table. Atlanta, 30.Two successful
ventures under belt. Looking for young-ish, VP of Engineering to partner / co-
found / code third.
~~~
carpal
"Real-world app ideas"
Elaborate?
~~~
fergusom
"Real world" is probably better described as tools & apps that will
dramatically change the way non-technical people do business. Email me at
[email protected]
~~~
wehriam
oh my
------
zapnap
I live on the Maine/NH/Mass border area about an hour north of Boston. A Ruby
developer. Lots of ideas, in various prototype stages. Looking to take some
time off of freelancing and focus on one of them with 1-2 other people for a
few months.
Not looking for an immediate cofounder as much as just other local
entrepreneurs with moxy to meetup with from time to time, exchange ideas and
skills. If things click, we can go from there...
------
carpal
24 living in Atlanta. Working on an accounting suite for small businesses
called Aloe. Very very raw pre-alpha quality build up at <http://aloe-
acct.com>
Looking for someone who can kick ass and take names. A Rails developer would
be great, but I'm also looking for someone who has business chops and a good
understanding of accounting principles.
~~~
Todd
I've been working on a similar concept on and off for almost a year. It's on
the shelf right now, but I wouldn't mind talking. I've done a lot of research
into Oracle and Peoplesoft and (to a lesser degree) Peachtree and Quick Books.
If nothing else, I could share some insights on database schema, etc. tl
@nospam@ onlyshallow.com
------
bluelu
Switzerland, Luxembourg or inbetween ;)
25, university degree, looking for a cofounder with experience in natural
language processing and clustering of documents (like
<http://www.cs.utoronto.ca/~hinton/absps/sh.pdf> someone else posted below).
Preferentially Java. Idea is blog search related.
~~~
Tichy
I am in Munich and would be interested to meet.
~~~
davidw
And I'm in Innsbruck. I'll remember to look you up if I'm in Munich again -
feel free to come down here to visit some time for day of hiking or skiing or
something.
bluelu - where in .ch? I am in Zurich sort of regularly on business these
days.
~~~
bluelu
I live in Zurich. Maybe we can meet for a dring sometime soon. I will contact
both of you.
~~~
davidw
I guess so, because you don't have any information at all in your profile.
------
dderu
Hi all,
Ok, I'm not looking for a cofounder, but rather a lead developer to help
commercialize our software. We are a funded startup company in Salt Lake City,
UT. If interested, you can see our Craigslist ad at:
<http://saltlakecity.craigslist.org/sof/576377282.html>
------
wmeredith
Wade Meredith, 26, Kansas City
Graphic design, GUI, CSS+HTML, SEO, Blogging, Viral Marketing
wademeredith.com <\---portfolio site/contact me here.
------
thinkcomp
I'm in Palo Alto, California. I'm 24, I've been running my company for 10
years, and I'm looking for someone who knows how to sell the products I
already have to people. Or, if you'd like to help code new ones, that would be
cool, too.
------
cstejerean
I'm not exactly looking for a co-founder but I'm looking to meet smart people
with interesting ideas. I like working on interesting projects whether it's my
idea or someone else's. I'm located in Chicago (for now).
~~~
jdavid
Milwaukee, WI - We will be at techcocktail 7, you should come find us. we want
to meet people that like to work on fun projects.
~~~
pchristensen
I'll be there too.
------
dkokelley
While I'm not sure how well HN works as a co-founder-finder (confoundit), I'll
test the waters. :P
19 living in Santa Clarita, CA (just north of Los Angeles). Contact info, as
well as stuff I've done is available in my profile.
------
edw519
1 man band in Tampa. Wouldn't mind teaming with a LAMP / AJAX rock star.
Here's what I'm doing...
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=114568>
~~~
rms
Do you need a drummer?
~~~
aston
Do you play?
~~~
rms
Lately, just Guitar Hero and Rock Band. I'll pick up a decent electronic kit
one of these days though.
------
davidw
It looks like a lot of people are simply interested in meeting other hackers
in their area, whether looking for co-founders or not. Maybe that should be
part of the site at this point.
------
ptn
Why must someone meet with the person who posted that same weekend?
~~~
imsteve
Just what I was about to say.
~~~
sharpshoot
This was posted at the start of the weekend. Some people are already getting
together.
Just imagine what would happen if you left this for next weekend. And then
felt a bit lazy, and put it off for another few days. Then didn't bother
meeting up at all. Chatted over IM, got offended by something someone said
because they were nervous and then never met at all.
Momentum breeds momentum. People have a huge inertia to changing their
situation.
If you want to stay how you are, then do it. Everyone around you will be
finding great people to work with and moving on.
~~~
imsteve
More tough for some of us who are broke and have no car to do this all within
one day.
------
gscott
I need a person into writing copy. If you like to write articles, sales text,
web page copy please let me know. Click on "gscott" to see what I am doing and
where it is going.
~~~
sharpshoot
what city are you in?
~~~
gscott
San Diego, California.
------
dizm
I'm in the Los Angeles area. Mainly looking for an interface graphics
designer, but anyone else could be interesting. Doing work in Seaside. phil at
dizm.com
------
pretzel
I am going to be in Leeds, UK in 2 months time working on a p2p
database/webserver. If you are interested, around the UK, and know Java, let
me know!
~~~
neilcauldwell
Pretzel - I'd be interested in meeting up. Graduated from Leeds last summer,
and I've been scrambling round in the startup world since.
Anyone else from the UK, let me know. The Songkick guys held a UK hackers
meetup last year, so we're probably due for another one soon. Maybe we could
do one in Stratford-Upon-Avon?!
~~~
danw
Theres BarCamp Brighton in a few weeks which will be attended by a load of
smart hackers. I suggest you check it out if looking for a cofounder:
<http://www.barcampbrighton.org/>
------
kirubakaran
I am not exactly looking for a co-founder right now but I'd definitely like to
make friends with ppl with startuppy interests.
Location: Seattle, WA.
(Proximity not a requirement)
------
michaelr
If anyone in western Canada (Calgary, Alberta) would like to toss around some
ideas send me an email (see profile).
------
memius
i'm a programmer fresh out of college in bergen, norway (planning to relocate
to boston or bay area). i'm 34, and i'm building a neural network to do speech
to text. i need another programmer, preferrably someone with more experience
than myself, especially with browsers and low-level signal processing.
~~~
duke
speech to text interests me because SLS (same language subtitling) now helps
many in india learn to read..
[http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2005/12/same-language-
subtitl...](http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2005/12/same-language-
subtitling.html)
synxi theory: with tools to easily sync/caption youtube, kaltura, etc, we can
make a fun way to learn/teach each other language, (ie engelsk, spansk, norsk,
etc)
------
andreyf
New York, NY - doesn't have to be a co-founder, just always happy to meet more
smart people.
[email protected]
------
alaskamiller
It's nice to make friends but this isn't how you start up companies
~~~
edw519
From the responses on this page you appear to be correct.
What would you suggest?
~~~
alaskamiller
The pairings that are made today would be best to apply for future cycles
later in the year. Most people here you talk to will at best end up as an
employee in your eyes, it's going to be hard to treat them as equals when most
people are just throwing out soft skills they want filled.
My partner and I have known each other since high school but he went off to
college while I went into the military. After reconnecting we've been working
on small projects on and off for the past couple cycles to learn each others
quirks, styles, and most importantly trust.
And after attending our 5 year high school reunion it's really surprising that
people we haven't talked to in awhile turned out to be doing very similar tech
things as well, even if they're not in the area. It surely doesn't hurt to
look up Facebook some old friends and see what they're doing or what they're
working on. Maybe some hate big corporate culture as much as we all do here.
A better way would be for people to list out their work experiences or market
they're analyzing for their startup.
For example, one of the failed ideas I was researching for was event planning
and building an evite competitor. After 4 months I dropped it but I've kept
plenty of notes about trends, other websites, feature lists, specs, and so
forth. If anyone wants to discuss it feel free to get in touch with me at
[email protected]. I also worked at a big corporation working with CMS
tools, search tools, publication, enterprise software for PLM processes. If
you want to build software to optimize those fields, again, get in touch with
me.
Likewise my current idea is dealing with Flash video and Flex environment, and
accessibility. If anyone has experience with that, please email me.
Start emailing people and sharing with them your ideas for feedback, then ask
them for another referral to someone else you can talk to until you've
literally have no one left to talk to. I've been keeping track of all my
conversations and people of interest in iCal and 37s Highrise and building my
business network. I'm also inviting local people to lunch to pick their
brains.
But it's completely youthful naivety to think this is the right way to cofound
a business together.
~~~
edw519
Thanks. Already been doing some of what you suggest. This just looked like an
interesting thread.
In the meantime, back to work.
~~~
alaskamiller
I've even got you stored in my little database as the ERP guy
~~~
edw519
Thanks. I never thought of describing myself that way, but who knows, maybe I
can find 2 chicks who dig it.
~~~
kirubakaran
They will, when you get acquired.
------
latrokles
Miami, FL... 25. Doing hardware stuff...
------
danw
sharpshoot: What's the reasoning behind Rule 3: 'Keep it enigmatic'?
I'm in Bristol, UK if anyone wishes to get in touch.
~~~
serhei
Guessing: you have to be serious enough about actually co-founding something
that you're willing to meet people in person to get opportunities.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Dilution - firloop
https://blog.ycombinator.com/dilution/
======
birken
> Remember that raising money is not success. Raising huge amounts of money
> early on is very rarely how companies win (though it is sometimes how
> companies lose)
I honestly think one of the reasons the company I worked for was successful
was our inability to raise money while we were young, which forced a real
discipline and creativity for how to do more with less. It also made us
skeptical of investors and ensured we didn't base our internal feelings about
the company based on what a bunch of incredibly fickle investors thought. This
was important both when investors hated us, and perhaps more important when
they switched and loved us.
And to the second point, I saw first hand how easy money made one of our
competitors so cocky they had no chance of success, and another one got too
much money and got distracted spending it all to actually make a core business
that made sense.
Money is necessary and important, but having too much of it is also a risk
that you need to take seriously.
~~~
yosefk
Counterpoint: if you're running out of money, the next investor you try to
raise from is going to be tough to negotiate with. If you have years of runway
left, you're in control when talking to investors, when you have 6 months,
they're in control. Another point is that when everything comes down crashing,
as it did in 2008, and you can't raise money anywhere nor, in many cases, make
a profit in the near future since demand for everything also crashes, then if
you've squirreled away enough money, you don't have to fire anyone, nor close
shop.
This is not to say that too much money can't cause the problems you mentioned.
The cure is to keep the money in the bank and not spend it.
All of the above is what my employer did, not my own personal idea. (Also no
VCs, these gut the company if it's neither public nor profitable in 5 years,
or at least they used to.)
~~~
marcofloriano
I like your idea (actually i practice it), but your investors aren't putting a
lot of money in your hands so you keep it at the bank to them, right? They
could do that for themselves.
By experience you don't need years on cash to survive in the long run,
discipline and a business that makes sense is way more powerful.
But off course, months of runaway is necessary. More than that is luxury.
~~~
_yosefk
Investors put money in the craziest places, surely there's a public story
stock right now that you think is inflated beyond belief and yet it trades at
the price it does. It follows that investors will do crazier things than give
you money to keep in the bank if you persuade them.
You tell them point blank, "we're hoping to make it big this year, but we
aren't taking any risks and we're gonna keep enough cash in the bank for the 3
next years. If you don't like this plan, fine, you're missing a chance to buy
a stock that's gonna shoot up 10x and here's why", and they buy your pitch,
they're gonna beg you to take their money.
I'm not saying I can do this, I'm saying people exist who can, and there are
markets where things are measured in years, and so you might want more runway
because your progress is way slower than that of a YC-backed Internet monopoly
wannabe.
By the way, MIPS Technologies was killed by genius investors who said "give us
your $100+ million in cash or invest it" and a genius CEO who said "fine, you
ain't gettin' nothin', I'm buying Chip Idea." It turned out that they didn't
know how to run Chip Idea and ran it into the ground, and now they had neither
money in the bank nor anything to show for it. This drove the company value
down so much that Imagination bought it for $60 million (the patents were sold
to a big CPU cartel for another $500 million, perhaps unfortunately as genius
investors did not get quite the punishment they needed to learn anything.)
A CEO capable of persuading the board of directors to keep the money in the
bank would have done better.
~~~
posterboy
>you're missing a chance to buy a stock that's gonna shoot up 10x and here's
why
that's not a positive pitch. The message sticks, whether you try to negate it
or not, if resonating with expectation.
------
lpolovets
Caveat: I'm a seed stage VC, so obviously I have a horse in this race.
I don't agree with this advice. Well, _in theory_ , I strongly agree that
avoiding excessive dilution is ideal. But the suggested numbers (10% dilution
for a seed round) feel very unrealistic to me. It's very hard to get far on
that kind of money for a seed stage company. If anything, the proliferation of
bridge rounds and seed extensions and series of convertible notes show that
even after raising seed rounds, many companies need more capital to get to a
series A.
It's also interesting to note that the 10% figure is coming from YC, which
takes 7%. That's a considerable amount of dilution, too (and very worth it,
IMO).
Finally, I've never been a founder, but I imagine if a company becomes
enormous, I'd care less about whether my net worth was $200m or $250m as a
founder. So the dilution seems less important than having enough capital for a
successful outcome. I'd rather have 60% of a small exit than 80% of a $0 exit.
I do believe in constraints and good cash management, so regardless of how
much founders raise, they should be conservative with spend until they have
strong product market fit.
~~~
tyre
I agree. Ironically, this was the advice we got while going through YC (yours,
not Sam's.)
Specifically: don't worry about valuation because success is binary. You
either make enough money that you don't care too much about percentage or you
make zero dollars in which case you don't care about percentage.
The idea of constraints helping to focus a team sounds true, as long as people
have enough to not worry about money. Note that this advice comes from Sam,
who literally got scurvy from eating too much Ramen while a founder of Loopt.
~~~
ryandrake
Does anyone else find this binary view of success to be... sad? I guess you
could say that if your goal isn't "Uber or bust" then don't take external
capital. Is there really no funding available for companies that just want to
make relatively safe, modest bets and deliver relatively safe, modest returns?
~~~
tyre
You don't have to do Uber or bust, but don't ask for venture money without
going for venture returns.
I do agree that there is a market opportunity to fund $50m/year businesses,
but that's not what VCs are for.
VCs: Invest in 100 companies, 90 fail, 5 return capital, 3 return 10x, 2
return 100x | 2.35x return on capital over a 10 year period (hopefully)
Index fund: 6% yearly return | 1.79x return on capital over 10 year period
Traditional small business loans average 6-9% APR and have a higher failure
rate than an index fund but lower than an index fund. Unfortunately, for
startups, they require collateral and/or historical financials.
~~~
tbrowbdidnso
I never understood this logic. Investors want unicorns but it's not like
they're going to hate you for only giving them a 5x ROI.
Most startups either fail or become small businesses. Investors are giving you
money to fund a business that you own. Depending on the terms you can, and
should, use that money for whatever you want.
Its the investors problem if 5x returns aren't good enough, not yours. Does
the bank call you to complain that your mortgage interest rate is too low? No.
They gave you the loan with what they thought was reasonable terms at the
time. It's not your fault they gave you the money too easily.
You should be focused 100% on building a successful sustainable business.
Investors can fuck right off if they push for risks that could turn their 5x
return into 0.
~~~
nostrademons
That requires that you have board control. If investors control the board and
you tell them to fuck right off, you will quickly find yourself out of a job.
~~~
syllogism
Board control isn't the problem at seed. You'll usually have board control.
But if you need another round of funding, the investors control the company.
If your seed investors are "name brand", and they pass and say, "Ah yes,
they're very nice guys. Wonderful conscience, very punctual. Unfortunately I
can't follow on, my capital's already allocated. I wish them luck.", you'd
better have a plan for profitability.
------
achou
"How do I spend this money?"
If you're asking yourself this question, you're not focusing on building your
business. How to spend it becomes a distraction.
The converse also happens: for any business problem the easiest solution is to
spend money. Leads? Leadgen firm. Hiring? Recruiters. Code? Outsource, or
contract out. Testing? you get the picture.
Throwing money at a problem is a short term fix but fails to build competence
at doing that thing. The lack of experience weakens your company in the long
term. It's organizational muscle that didn't get exercised. It atrophies over
time.
This might make sense for certain areas, but having too much money on hand
makes it very tempting to solve all problems with this one hammer.
------
Abundnce10
Somebody please make this: like TransparentStartup [1] but instead of sharing
revenue numbers the startup shares their cap table so that we can see how it
changes over time after multiple rounds of fundraising.
I feel like seeing concrete examples of how the founders' share of their
company changes based on the size/details of a fundraising round would be
super useful for founders as they negotiate funding rounds.
Are there any companies currently sharing these details that I'm not aware of?
[1] [http://www.transparentstartups.com/](http://www.transparentstartups.com/)
~~~
god_bless_texas
I would love to see that along with the founder and early employee stakes
broken down on the company side. This is all so easy when you read it on
various websites and haven't actually done it on your own. Then you get in the
driver seat and there's all this crap flying at you that doesn't fall into any
one bucket. The guy who is critical to your business doesn't care how much
equity he gets. The gal who is not as critical is ready for a cage match. The
investor wanting to throw you 5 million makes the offer over a burger and a
beer. The guy in the next town over wants pages of documentation for his
$20,000.
------
antidilution
Serious question here for people who know about this.
"I have recently seen several examples of companies doing pretty well and
going out to raise B rounds with investors already owning 50-60% of the
company. In all cases, they are having a tough time."
I know a company in this position. Not quite going out to raise a Series B,
but lots of interest from current Series A investors in doubling down (doing
an internal growth round).
What's special about this scenario is that the company is profitable and has
millions in revenue and grew 1,200% since the Series A investment round just a
couple years ago. But because the pre-Series-A financing was at depressed
valuations, there is only 30% of stock for the common, and the
founders/employees are (rightfully) worried about dilution. The cap table is
clean, but the distribution is unfavorable.
In this case, could founders make a reasonable argument that Series A
investors should buy out seed investors and angels rather than diluting the
common stock holders further? It seems like secondary liquidity for the angels
would be attractive to them, and I heard that when offering secondary
liquidity for those seed-stage investors, one could do some sort of "stock-
cash swap" that avoids dilution of the common. Anyone heard of something like
this or have good reading material about it? It seems like an esoteric "third
way" between Series A and exit.
~~~
bartmancuso
That seems reasonable if you can find Seed investors willing to sell. The very
fact that the new investor wants to put money in at a favorable valuation may
be the type of thing that makes the seed investor think "this company might be
getting hot" and decide they don't want to sell.
------
jmspring
A classic comment from the CEO of a startup I worked at during an all hands
after a new round of funding, someone asked about dilution. The CEO (with a
straight face) said, "you weren't diluted, the share price increased." The
question was from one of the early employees. It was one more item that made a
few of us who were already fed up about a few things leave before even
vesting.
~~~
grosbisou
Could you link to some resources to help understand this kind of stuff? It's
hard to navigate between all the numbers people at startup throw like it's
always good things.
For example in your case why was it bullshit? It sounds like you potentially
own less but it got more expensive.
~~~
e1g
>why was it bullshit?
It _probably_ was bullshit because to raise money the company will usually
create new shares - and doing this will always make all existing shares own a
lesser percentage of the company.
Fun example time! Let's consider a company with 100 shares in total (as
printed physical IOUs). An early-stage engineer received 1 of those shares, so
they own 1% of the company. Fast forward to the next all-hands meeting, and a
founder says they just raised a new investment round. Common practice suggests
that the new investors just bought 25% of shares/IOUs. But where did these
IOUs come from, if there were only 100 and all are distributed already? In
essence, the company just printed new ones, much like the government can print
new money. In this case the company started with 100 shares, then printed 33
new ones for the new investors, and now those investors own 33/133 shares or
~25% of the company. And our early-stage engineer owns 1/133 shares, or their
ownership got "diluted" to 0.7% from 1%. Perhaps. Or perhaps the company
printed 500 new shares, and the new investors now own 80% of the business
(500/600 shares), and the engineer owns 0.16% instead of 1%. This is what the
engineer is asking: "by how much did I get diluted?". The founder is replying
"you didn't", which is mathematically impossible if new shares/IOUs were
created. Of course now the engineer's 0.7% is probably worth more in $$$, but
that wasn't what they asked.
That's under typical conditions, but it's possible that the founder _was_
correct as long as the company did not print new shares. Two examples come to
mind: (1) the founders sold some of their own shares to the new investors at a
much higher price, thus keeping the total share count at 100 but implicitly
increasing the price of the 1 share the engineer holds. This scenario is
unlikely because it's seen as a bad signal - the founders are cashing-in and
existing the venture. (2) The company had 100 shares, but only distributed 80
of them initially, so the new investors are getting their shares from the
remaining unallocated pool. This means the total share count remains at 100,
and the engineer still owns 1% with no dilution, and the price just went up
and that's it. Having 10-15% unallocated for attracting talent is normal, but
having ~25% unallocated for future fund raising is unnecessary complex and
highly unusual.
------
alexmingoia
In other words, companies are taking investment later and later in their
lifespan so founders need to be sure thy have some left many years and many
rounds after they started. Capital is dirt cheap and desperate for return -
and only getting cheaper.
------
oculusthrift
Tangential question: How do founders typically retain control of their
company? I've specifically been told that it's wise for one person to own
51pct of the company and be CEO. However, with 20 pct of equity for investors
and 10 reserved for future employees, this doesn't seem to leave much for
cofounders who are potentially putting as much skin in the game as the CEO.
~~~
jacquesm
> I've specifically been told that it's wise for one person to own 51pct of
> the company and be CEO.
Well, if that CEO puts up 51% of the capital that might happen. But otherwise
the better formula is to be equals as co-founders.
~~~
oculusthrift
From what I've read, from former ycombinator founders, that if one person
isn't in charge then people get stuck in decision paralysis. And that for
instance if three people are equal partners, its always a game of alliances
and two people ganging up against the other one.
~~~
jacquesm
You are conflating ownership and the role of a CEO. Technically the CEO does
not have to hold equity at all (and this is in fact common in many older
family owned companies).
Decision paralysis is more a function of not having a clear path forward or
having founders without aligned goals than anything else and those are serious
problems that need to be dealt with but they do not need to be dealt with on
an equity level.
It's much more to do with knowing which role fits you best.
Keep in mind that the CEO functions at the pleasure of the board if you have
one and the stockholders if you do not and unless you plan on doing stuff that
will go directly against the interest of other shareholders having control is
rarely if ever important.
_Far_ more important than the CEO having a controlling percentage of the
equity is that the _founders_ have a controlling percentage (and if possible,
a supermajority depending on your articles of incorporation and shareholder
agreements and whether or not you have more than one class of stock).
------
lmeyerov
This felt more from a VC perspective than a founder's one..
1\. VCs have portfolios and can talk about averages. As a founder, you're
dealing with your particular reality, and as startup phases are inherently
high variance... your terms will be all over the map, and not driven by your
dilution aspirations. Oh, SaaS crashed this quarter and you lost your F100
account? Too bad for you. Bots are in? Sweet!
2\. I'm surprised by the dilution percentages here: I'm guessing they're for
the top 10% or so, where everything already aligned anyway. Likewise, I'd
expect it for something like a SaaS snack boxes -- stuff where averages and
predictability make sense from day 1, not crazy bumpy tech etc. Otherwise, for
example, VCs will fight HARD for their % minimums. So, 10-15% sounds like one
VC at their absolute bottom... and therefore not normal.
3\. 7% might be what accelerators converged on... but that's high compared to
F&F, angels, & specialized advisors in your field (vs "startups").
------
matchagaucho
In every VC pitch I've made in the past 5 years, they have all offered more
money than needed/requested.
Maybe I over-corrected by choosing to bootstrap, but you can never own too
much of your own company.
In the VC's defense, their funds are increasing at a rate disproportionate to
the number of partners available to manage the investments.
VCs simply cannot focus on 100 $1M investments with 5 partners.
~~~
gmarx
Do I understand correctly that every time you have pitched VCs in the past 5
years they wanted to give you money? If pitched to many VCs over the years and
never been offered investment. The rest of you make it sound so easy
~~~
matchagaucho
Sorry, didn't mean to trivialize the process.
More literally, for the all VC conversations _that got past due diligence_ ,
the negotiations simply fizzled out.
Dilution was only one of many factors. It _is_ a very hard and grueling
process.
------
sama
Bug fix: in an earlier version I used 12.5% and 20% as the rough targets for
seed and A rounds. Then I decided to switch to 10-15% and 15-25% ranges.
Somehow that change only partially got made, indicating 10% and 15-25%. Now
it's fixed.
------
logicallee
I think it's a bit insensitive not to mention that at the seed stage most
companies throughout the world cannot raise any money on any terms, period.
(Literally: period.)
This includes companies with revenue and built product.
The rest of the advice is good and interesting - but it really is for
companies that can raise in Silicon Valley.
------
dandare
Am I the only one who cringes when entrepreneur uses the amount of raised
money to introduce/describe himself?
"...during my career I have raised $100 million..."
Yeah? And how much value did you create?
------
Quanticles
less dilution = good
money to do stuff = good
wise spending = good
these are all known things, i'm not sure this article actually digs much into
how to balance them
------
SFJulie
As a former serial startup employee (I used to be young an optimistic) I
cannot count the money I earned doing crunch and being underpaid ...
Because I have none of it.
------
jartelt
The other consideration with raising a large round is that you are going to
have a high valuation. If your company is awesome and growing really fast,
this is no problem. However, if you overestimated your market and struggle to
grow into that high valuation, you limit your options for a successful exit.
------
equalarrow
Great post, I love it!
I definitely have an opiniosn.
I've raised money, couldn't raise money, have had friends that couldn't, have
ended up having friends slogging through to become millionaires without any
vc, and even turned down rounds hoping to get more.
Now when I look back and think "how would I do this now?" I come to two
conclusions.
1\. If I want to own an idea as a business owner over the long term, then I
don't care about investors. This is my Basecamp spidey sense and convictions.
My happy path.
2\. My idea is great, I need some money. However.... Nowadays I'm thinking
along the lines of "long term (hopefully,, but I suspect that most people
don't care bs long term"", which is not SV or wall st friendly. I am seriously
looking at non-profit.
Uggggh!
I've been through #1 a gazillion times and now, since I have a family and a
diff outlook on life, I'm looking longer term.
But, how does the 'family dude' perspective conflict with the Uber
perspective?
Growth is the altar that we all kneel to. The Iron Throne. But, it doesn't
have to be this way. Granted, we all have Maslow's needs and that varies based
on a number of factors (geographic, personal, etc). But in the end, what is
our purpose?
Are we here to sustain sexual harassment via star pupils at Uber so they that
their 'CEO' can grow? (At the expense of human beings?)
What is the point of growth or even exponential growth? Money? Riches?
Look, I think YC is better than not and I think that we - we tech people -
need to lead the way because we 'can'. Thumbs up on riches, algorithms, and
technology. These are awesome progressive things!
But, seriously, after going thru the vc grinder, seeing the cap tables of
founders and everyone else and then THEN (stupidly) agreeing to this
inequity.. Well, the fault is obviously mine but there is is (a lot) of fault
with these pump and dump startups.
------
65827
I think the spectacular real time failure of Uber is going to drive a lot of
those valuations down.
~~~
CalChris
I think you're right but VCs have only themselves to blame for that fiasco.
------
amorphid
Do startups ever pre-allocate blocks of equity for investors? I understand
it's common to carve out N shares for employee options.
Say pre-raise look like this...
\- 30% for founders
\- 20% for employees
\- 50% for future investors
Then when raising initial funds, you sell 20% the total pie (40% of the
investor block) of the company to investors, making the share split look like
this...
\- 30% for founders
\- 20% for employees
\- 20% for current investors
\- 30% for future investors
When an exit occurs, any unallocated shares get split up among the existing
shareholders using whatever formula is used to calculate how the money is
distributed.
~~~
jkarneges
I did something like this with our company, but it doesn't really do anything
other than make round share counts. All that matters is the proportions
between shareholders, not the number of unissued shares.
~~~
amorphid
Given what you know, would you do it again? My main thinking is that it's
simply easier to reason about, especially when discussing the value of shares
with non-investors.
~~~
jkarneges
I wouldn't preallocate for investors. It's too unpredictable. Employees, sure.
Is it that you want to be able to say to your team members, "you have X% in
the worst case" ? I don't think it's practical to make such a statement if
you're going down a fundraising path. At best you might be able give a near
term worst case, based on the next round or two (e.g. apply the high side of
Sam's seed/A dilution ranges). It's all guesswork though, and even with a
preallocation you might need to exceed it.
------
auganov
Diluting founders' equity is the least important point. A messed up cap table
can make your startup uninvestable. It hurts the whole company, not just you,
the founder. Which is why you mostly see these deals peddled by VCs without a
track record.
Even if you can't get a different deal you might want to pass. There's just no
point. Unless all you want is a salary.
------
blazespin
I think something needs to be said about context. Some ventures will be more
successful by raising more / diluting more, while others the cash will just
hurt. Some examples: hardware plays versus an AI startup.
------
Kiro
> raise $5 million on a $10 million pre-money valuation (selling 33% of the
> company to investors)
How do these calculations work?
~~~
tyre
The pre-money valuation is what you are worth before the investment. So you're
saying "we have a company worth $10 million" and the investor is saying "cool,
let me give you $5 million."
So now you have $10 million in company plus $5 million in cash, so you are
worth $15 million (that's called the post-money valuation.) The investor gets
$5m / $15m—33% of the company.
------
neom
Money is simply wind in the sails.
~~~
neom
The fact that I got voted down on this just goes to show the level of ability
to understand reality HN has. HN is a bubble.
~~~
marktangotango
I didn't down vote, but your comment was banal and didn't add anything to the
discussion. HN aspires to a higher level of discourse, as you probably know.
Just glanced at your profile, you probably have a lot of insight that everyone
would find interesting!
------
pdog
_> Most founders' instincts seem to be to give too much equity to investors
and not enough to employees._
Is this wrong? Investors don't receive anything for their capital but equity.
Employees receive income, benefits, etc. that have to be factored into the
equation.
~~~
tyre
It's absolutely wrong! Employees are the ones who put in the work to actually
build the company.
As you said, investors only put in capital (and sometimes advice and/or
intros.) Employees work full-time on the company, oftentimes for below-market
rates (what they could reasonably assume to make in salary + benefits at
larger companies.)
A company at any size is far, far, far more likely to succeed or fail based on
its employees than its investors.
~~~
maxxxxx
Employees also take more risk. Investors just lose money but employees lose
years of their career if things go wrong.
~~~
kinkrtyavimoodh
Why would employees lose years of their career? While it's true that early
work-ex in a company that eventually becomes Google is great to have, it's not
exactly a black mark on your resume if you have worked in a company that
didn't do well. You still got plenty of engineering experience.
~~~
100k
Sadly, four years of "heroic effort at failing startup" doesn't look as good
on the resume as "worked at Google".
~~~
maxxxxx
A lot of startups aren't even technically very advanced so the only thing you
may have learned is to work 80 hours per week without complaining
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
UBiome Offices Searched by FBI - jbergstroem
https://www.wsj.com/articles/ubiome-offices-searched-by-fbi-11556301287
======
schmatz
I was stupid enough to sign up for their SmartGut program. They never clearly
disclose how much the test costs if you opt to use your insurance. They’re
$2700. Not only that, they make it seem like you purchased 6 tests, but the
$2700 charge is per test. Their billing practices are questionable, at least
from the perspective of the consumer. On the BBB page for uBiome tons of
people are complaining. While I can afford the surprise charge, I feel bad for
the many that surely cannot.
~~~
homero
They promised to only take what your insurance paid and not bill you any
remainder. My insurance refused one and paid another. They ate the first one.
But it's a ridiculous amount to bill my insurance so i didn't do anymore. They
got shady when they started sending emails where just by clicking they would
"resequence" your sample.
~~~
tschwimmer
>They promised to only take what your insurance paid and not bill you any
remainder.
This sounds like insurance fraud. [0]
[0] [https://www.ajmc.com/contributor/andria-jacobs-rn-ms-cen-
cph...](https://www.ajmc.com/contributor/andria-jacobs-rn-ms-cen-
cphq/2015/07/waiving-copays-and-deductibles-waves-a-red-flag)
~~~
homero
What about all the $5 drug copay promotions? A drug company just refunded my
copay.
~~~
refurb
It’s ok with private insurance, but not public insurance. The federal govt
considers it an inducement.
~~~
leelew
It’s not Ok with commercial insurance either.
~~~
refurb
If by "ok" you mean legal, yes, it is legal for drug companies to offer co-pay
assistance.
------
breck
I did uBiome a couple of years ago, paying out of pocket ~$100-$200 or so for
a kit. It was ahead of its time and I think it could have a very bright
future.
At the time the it was overhyping the present-day usefulness of the data but
wasn't lying about it, similar to 23andMe. I'm hoping this is a 23andMe-like
incident and not a Theranos, where the latter I guess blatantly lied about the
accuracy of its tests. IMO (I occasionally work with microbiome data in our
bioinformatics lab), your microbiome data today is nearly useless but will be
indispensable in the future as the technology improves, and we need early
adopters to use services like uBiome to get there.
I know nothing about uBiome's newer more expensive products and/or how they
bill insurance companies. I hope they're not doing anything illegal there, or
if there is a simple settlement that can be reached a la 23andMe's FDA case. I
can't imagine they are doing anything more unethical than anyone else in the
health insurance industry, which IMO is rotten to the core (I just saw my
friend's insurance bill for a normal healthy birth + 2day stay at a hospital
in SF for over $60,000 before insurance).
~~~
refurb
Reimbursement is everything in the healthcare industry and the gov't loves to
lay the smack down on companies who play fast and loose with the billing
rules, particularly if Medicare or Medicaid is involved.
Yes, your friend's hospital bill is ridiculous, but that's doesn't mean it was
fraudulent. If uBiome is breaking the rules, they are going to be severely
punished.
------
natosaichek
Video of employees walking out of the building:
[https://twitter.com/sallyshin/status/1121854424727425024](https://twitter.com/sallyshin/status/1121854424727425024)
~~~
refurb
Anyone else notice the "DCIS Police" on the cops shirt?
_DCIS protects military personnel by investigating cases of fraud, bribery,
and corruption; preventing the illegal transfer of sensitive defense
technologies to proscribed nations and criminal elements; investigating
companies that use defective, substandard, or counterfeit parts in weapons
systems and equipment utilized by the military; and stopping cyber crimes and
computer intrusions.
Priorities: Health care fraud committed by providers that involves (a) quality
of care, unnecessary care, or failure to provide care to Tricare‐eligible
service members, retirees, dependents, or survivors; or (b) significant direct
loss to DoD's Tricare Management Activity._[1]
Maybe they just needed help with the raid and DCIS was available? Or maybe
uBiome was ripping of gov't insurers?
[1][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Criminal_Investigative...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Criminal_Investigative_Service)
~~~
dragonwriter
DCIS explicitly, from the same source, is responsible for investigating, among
other things:
”Health care fraud committed by providers that involves (a) quality of care,
unnecessary care, or failure to provide care to Tricare‐eligible service
members, retirees, dependents, or survivors; or (b) significant direct loss to
DoD's Tricare Management Activity.”
Given the general concerns about UBiome, that responsibility has to be why
DCIS is involved.
------
imjk
There's not much in the way of details in this article. Some other news
sources are suggesting the company is being investigated for how they're
billing insurance companies specifically:
[https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/26/the-fbi-just-raided-
ubiomes-...](https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/26/the-fbi-just-raided-ubiomes-
office-for-billing-practices.html)
------
ilamont
So who are the board members who signed off on its current business plan?
Don't see anything on the site about the corporate board, just the SAB. The
Crunchbase list
([https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/ubiome/advisors/curr...](https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/ubiome/advisors/current_advisors_image_list#section-
board-members-and-advisors)) seems outdated in light of the funding it has
received from Andreessen, OS Fund, and 8 VC.
------
2coolbaby
My gut bacteria was destroyed by antibiotics plus after my latest round I
ended up with the c-dif toxin that can be fatal. My microbiome results were so
important in getting my gut bacteria recovered and taking the right probiotics
to do it. So, anyone saying the results are useless obviously never saw a set
of them. I’m disappointed that this has happened because I was just starting
to get my gut bacteria in line through good diet and probiotics. No snake or
essential oils necessary! (Puts crystals away and looks at that poster with
sarcasm!).
------
reureu
I wonder if all the microbiome sequence data that UBiome collected will wind
up in some FBI database now.
~~~
atomical
uBiome was mostly selling pseudoscience to engineers (who should know better)
and the essential oils crowd. Once you have the data you have to do something
meaningful with it. For most uBiome users that means heading to YouTube to
figure out which guru they are going to follow.
------
lsllc
Are they seriously carrying shields and body armor?
~~~
kyrieeschaton
The FBI and most US law enforcement is notorious for ridiculous overkill and
roughing up subjects of search warrants.
~~~
drak0n1c
The FBI engaged in similar militarized theater for the recent arrest of Roger
Stone. Dozens of armored SWAT officers, automatic rifles, and a CNN war
correspondent van parked outside - all to arrest a solitary man sleeping his
pajamas.
For historical context, this trend is due to the pendulum swinging back too
far in reaction to the Miami FBI shootout [1], where officers were woefully
outgunned.
[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout)
~~~
VectorLock
Roger Stone had posted multiple videos of him at a shooting range so its
reasonable for them to assume he was in the possession of firearms.
~~~
byset
so anyone who has been at a shooting range needs to be raided by a SWAT team
when arrested for white-collar crimes?
~~~
dragonwriter
The thing about a heavily armed society is that it necessitates law
enforcement preparing for armed resistance in routine tasks as a default
rather than exceptional case, if nothing else to reduce the probability of
such resistance by reducing the expectation of it being successful.
You can't reasonably both have a pervasively armed populace and law
enforcement unprepared to deal with armed resistance from suspects even when
the crime of which they are suspected is not itself violent.
~~~
kyrieeschaton
SWAT raids are a terrible way to get the drop on anyone who is actually
intending on armed resistance. They are on the other hand an excellent way to
make sure that "accidents" happen, as they routinely do. They are an obvious
terror tactic.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
GameNetworkingSockets – Reliable and unreliable messages over UDP - ivanfon
https://github.com/ValveSoftware/GameNetworkingSockets
======
Animats
Second Life does something very similar. Reliable and unreliable messages,
binary format, multiple messages in a single datagram.
Unreliable messsages are for ones that are superseded by later messages.
There's no point in retransmitting; you always want the latest object
positions.
The big problem is message priority. Games need a low-latency, low-traffic
channel for updates and a high-latency, high-traffic channel for assets. It's
tough making this work on the open Internet. End to end QoS just isn't widely
available. So using much less than the full available bandwidth is needed to
keep intermediate FIFO buffers from filling up. This is related to the
"bufferbloat" problem - network devices now all have lots of RAM, and if they
have FIFO queuing and less output bandwidth than input bandwidth, they will
build up huge queues that generate huge latency.
For QoS to work in the wild, there has to be some throttling or incentive to
discourage too much high priority traffic. You'd like to have under 5% of your
traffic at high priority. It's hard to make this work in the public Internet.
~~~
woah
I believe this type of QoS would easily violate “net neutrality”, which is why
it hasn’t happened yet.
~~~
matthewmacleod
That is a misconception.
It’s totally legitimate to provide QoS based on open protocols, or even for
particular classes of traffic. Net neutrality comes into play where providers
start prioritising traffic based on the remote service provider.
------
calebh
I've used ENet for my games which is pretty similar to this project.
Unfortunately ENet does not support IPv6, and the pull requests on the ENet
repository appear to be ignored. The ENet author refuses to accept any changes
that break the ABI, which is highly unfortunate.
[http://enet.bespin.org/](http://enet.bespin.org/)
------
johnhenry
> GameNetworkingSockets is a basic transport layer for games.
I understand that this is primarily derived from a gaming platform, but is
there anything that makes this useful specifically "for game" and not
networked applications in general?
~~~
blackflame7000
Let's start with why TCP won't work: every time a packet is lost or reordered,
your on-screen avatar will put Michael Jackson's moonwalk to shame. UDP won't
work by itself either because what happens if that packet that said I got the
winning kill didn't make it to the server? There are all sorts of time-and-
order-critical messages that are needed to correctly keep score in the game
for example. So obviously we need 2 channels, some for order sensitive data
(like score) and some for last update possible (like movement)
~~~
cma
If you round robin on a bunch of tcp connections you can avoid many of the
packet loss latency issues (doesn't give an advantage over udp really, but
allows you to work in tcp only environments).
~~~
blackflame7000
Yea if you're gaming on a budget I suppose that would work, but I'd still be
worried about the exponential backoff algorithm TCP usages because packets
aren't guaranteed to take an unblocked pathway on their subsequent attempts.
Its possible to lose a whole bunch of packets before being successfully
diverted. And furthermore, what happens if your opponent is scoring points
while you're frozen in TCP rectification mode. You're going to need UDP for
just about anything that involves players interacting in a 3-dimensional
world.
------
xir78
Would be great for TCP to better address the reliable transmission of messages
for games, these “reliable UDP” code bases in game engines don’t address all
of the other issues such as bandwidth sharing fairness and avoiding saturation
of networking links, which ultimately will just make networks slower than
faster and more reliable for everyone.
~~~
kabdib
If you changed TCP sufficiently to make it a real-time protocol suitable for
gaming, it wouldn't be TCP any more. Reliable streaming and real-time packet
delivery are two completely different animals.
I would argue that bandwidth-sharing fairness with stuff going over UDP is
easy: Just start dropping packets when pipes get full.
Most updates are going to be pretty small. It's not like game developers want
the user experience of their titles to be bad, after all.
~~~
xir78
It’s not easy to share the bandwidth fairly, it’s taken decades of research
and it continues to be improved in TCP.
You’re not consindering a server, the bandwidth is very high on the backend
and does saturate links. You run many servers per physical or virtual machine
due to cost, so you can have 1000s if players connected over a single network
path.
~~~
kabdib
... which is why you provision servers and design your software and network
architecture to take the demand (latency, bandwidth, etc.) into account. Data
rates for online games are pretty predictable. A 10 Gbit fiber connection to a
racked server doesn't cost that much.
At the datacenter level you're making sure that the bandwidth you bought from
providers is sufficient (and ideally, redundant), and that you can shift load
from one area to another if necessary. You can buy this capability from AWS or
Azure, or build it yourself in many different ways.
------
bluejekyll
Anyone know how this differs from RTP?
I haven’t worked with either but did review the RTP spec, and many of these
features appear similar.
RTP also has some multicasting features built in for broadcast delivery, which
can be useful in certain contexts.
Edit: the reason I ask is that RTP is getting wide scale deployment and
testing as it’s being used for WebRTC.
~~~
gfodor
Also worth comparing to WebRTC data channels, which are SCTP.
------
popee
Stupid question. How do you solve (de)fragmentation and out of order delivery
with unreliable protocol? What are cases and is it possible to make it simple?
~~~
camgunz
You generally only use this for data where only the latest update matters. So
if you get "Packet 18" "Packet 30" "Packet 19", you take 18, then 30, then
ignore 19. The canonical example is an object's position; usually if you know
what something's position is at 30 then information about where it was at 19
is so out of date it's useless.
The gain here is that you typically get the latest information as fast as
possible. The downsides, of course, are that there's a pretty steep decline on
connections that are even a little high latency or lossy. UDP drops packets
even on wired LAN, for example. Practically all games use this method, and
they all have lots of smoothing and prediction tech to make things seem like
you're getting constant position updates -- which you almost certainly aren't.
You can also use this for data that doesn't matter -- although if it doesn't
matter you should question why you're sending it in the first place.
------
limaoscarjuliet
The moment you say "reliable messages with UDP" you really are saying "we are
implementing TCP on our own", which quickly turns into question "why?".
By its own admission, the project says: "The reliability layer is a pretty
naive sliding window implementation". A bit scary if you really want to have
guarantee message is delivered.
Also scary part: "Our use of OpenSSL is extremely limited; basically just AES
encryption", "we do not support x509 certificates". OpenSSL is difficult,
coming up with your own key exchange is likely problematic.
So I'm still searching for the answer as to why we need to do this? What's the
market for this?
P.S. Yes, Valve being the author certainly brings some "reedeming value" to
this!
~~~
thezilch
Your assuming the usage of such a library is sending, let's say, a network
crushing amount of data. But, this is really intended for games that try to
fit under 512Kb/s (or even less). We're not trying to jam down 20MB/s of JS, 5
MB/s of CSS, and 100MB/s of PNGs. Reliable packets are sending you, at worst,
"the state of the world" in a few KB.
~~~
xir78
You’re just thinking of a single game client, if you have a server running 100
matches then it’s real bandwidth and will saturate network links.
~~~
kabdib
Last time I bought some 10Gbit fiber (some AOC, the stuff with SFPs on both
ends) it was about $70 for a 3 meter cable. Amortized cost of switch ports are
maybe another $200. You paid $700 for a 10Gbit networking card with (say) four
ports ... but a LOT more for the server to run all of this.
Back-of-envelope calculation: You can get about 50,000 client connections at
50 updates/sec of 500 bytes each on a 10Gbit link. Four ports, double
redundancy gets you 100K clients on a server. Yike -- that's _wayyy_ more
clients than you want on a single server (you almost certainly run out of
server-side CPU for game simulation and so forth before you run into bandwidth
issues). A dual 40Gbit networking card is pretty cheap, but you'll run into
CPU load issues trying to feed that card enough traffic -- it's frankly plenty
hard to do that even when you're not doing game computation.
You can probably run all of your servers on 1Gbit copper for under $100 /
port. There are better ways to wire things up, but I've done this in the past
and it's worked fine.
Capital outlay for sufficient server bandwidth just isn't a big deal.
[edit: back-of-envelope calculation low by a factor of 10 :-) ]
~~~
arca_vorago
70 dollars for 9ft of fiber with connectors? I almost always make my own
cables (fiber included) but for some special jobs where it was a time
contraint I'd use pre-made but that still seems very steep. Where are you
sourcing cables?
I also suppose not everyone knows how to terminate fiber and I've done it so
much it's become second nature.
~~~
kabdib
It might have been closer to $35, I'd have to dig a little. Remember, this is
with the SFPs, not just the raw fiber (which is significantly cheaper on its
own, even if you buy it terminated).
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Telescope Making [video] - gosub
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYpjlQpsANY
======
imroot
This is something that I am really passionate about.
I have a farm in the middle of nowhere in Kentucky, that I've put a glass
studio in part of the unfinished side of my pole barn (I use the other side
for electronics assembly, testing, and debugging) that I use for casting the
blanks for grinding the mirrors.
I use a High Def projector and a 12MP DSLR camera to identify parts of the
mirror that need to be ground down more and then ultimately verify that the
curvature of the glass is correct.
There's an observatory about 200 miles away near Columbus, Ohio that can
mirrorize the glass (it's a 3 day process), and I usually donate my last
telescope to the observatory for letting me use their equipment (and I bring
my own supplies).
I've attempted to make my own lenses, but, there's just too much room for
error in that process.
Once I have the mirrors and lenses correctly, I've been playing around with
NEMA-34 stepper motors and kflop/kstep motor controllers to power my polar
object tracking -- there are usually two buttons on the telescope that I use
-- one for releasing the steppers and the other for energizing and starting to
track -- along with encoders so that I can get an approximation of the night
sky.
I love living in the middle of nowhere, in Kentucky for the stars, and my
ability to do unique farm tech (temperature and water quality sensors using
raspberry pi's and mesh networking, GPS and yield sensors on my tractors,
solar powered wifi repeaters to my 'city home' for fast internet).
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: PHP, interfaces, typehinting subtype and LSP? - enterx
interface I<p>{<p>function foo(stdClass $arg);<p>}<p>class Test extends stdClass<p>{<p>}<p>class Implementation implements I<p>{<p>function foo(Test $arg)<p>{<p>}<p>}<p>Result:<p>Fatal error: Declaration of InterfaceImplementation::foo() must be compatible with I::foo(stdClass $arg) in test.php on line XY<p>How come that I can't type hint a subtype in the implementation?
======
jaachan
It has to work with all subtypes of stdClass, since in order for the interface
to hold its word, I need to be able to get an object thats implements I, and
pass it any stdClass, regardless of what they do with it.
~~~
enterx
Based on the research I've made it is legal by the OO principles and SHOULD
work but it got omitted somehow in the trade-off during the implementation.
Also NOT available in java.lang.
~~~
jaachan
Say I have a function that accepts I as argument:
function my_func(I $x)
{
$x->foo(new stdClass);
}
That wouldn't be allowed, since your code requires an instance of Test, not
stdClass
------
FreezerburnV
This is a question that would be better suited to asking on stackoverflow.com
~~~
enterx
wow. you too might think of allocating unnecessary memory, wasting people's
bandwidth and occupying cognitive resources of others for nothing. TIA.
~~~
jaachan
It's true though, stack overflow gets you more programmer eyeballs
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: Anyone would like to team up? I have tons of unfinished projects. - hinoglu
I have many projects laying around, waiting for their heros to get them up and complete. They might not be the next biggest things, but might be fun.<p>Projects are based on python and django.<p>Some of them are:<p>1 - A social job listing board. Users can submit their ads for seeking jobs,
for employees, or about their services etc. My aim is to eliminate the sending
cv and waiting for a possible reply or having to struggle gazillions of cvs or
applications all stating that "the applicant is the best for that job" problems.<p>For that reason a dynamic questionairre system is provided where ad owners can
ask applicants to write code samples, essays, or answer some specific questions
to see if applicants fit their needs. I'm planning many other features, but need
to get it online first.
status: almost done, needs effort on design and bugfixes<p>2 - An open social bug filing system mostly for fun. you can file a bug on anything,
on your girlfriend, on god, on your cell phone, on your drink etc. Bug reports are
legit, though the content may not be :)
status: almost done, needs some work on features and design.<p>3 - A soc^H^H^H community based recipe & question & answer system for web developers
to improve their skills. The drill is that it provides a canvas based draw board
where users can quickly come up with a mockup of layout of the elements and ask
their questions, or provide sample css & html recipes on them. nothing big, but might be fun.
status: mostly done, needs design and some more work on draw board, bugfixes.<p>4 - Awesomelist. A very old project, where users share information about the things they find
awesome (or sucky?) in life which'll eventually build up a community(ha! no escape from communities).
might already been implemented a gazillion times.
status: uhm..uh.. don't remember where i left it.<p>5 - Pros & cons. Another old project. Listing page about the pros and cons on anything.
Most probably this idea also has been exploited to death, but you know oldies are goldies.
status: not really sure. i might have never started this.<p>So if anyone would like to team up with me on any of these projects, please drop me a line.
======
hinoglu
bumping for the sake of bumping
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Google Data Collection - proper analysis[pdf] - oox
https://digitalcontentnext.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/DCN-Google-Data-Collection-Paper.pdf
======
oox
Finally someone has made a proper analysis with tracking network traffic,
analysing content of communication with google servers, analysing user
agreements. Read it, it is priceless.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Python 3.8.0a1 is now available for testing - edmorley
https://pythoninsider.blogspot.com/2019/02/python-380a1-is-now-available-for.html
======
luhn
Notably new is the assignment expressions [1]. This was quite controversial
and the battle around it caused Guido to step down as BDFL [2].
I personally think it's quite a nifty feature. I often end up writing
something along the lines of:
result = do_something()
if result:
do_more(result)
Now that can be expressed as:
if result := do_something():
do_more(result)
It definitely has the potential to be abused and reduce readability, but
applied well I think it can increase readability.
[1] [https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0572/#relative-
precedenc...](https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0572/#relative-precedence-
of) [2] [https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-
committers/2018-Jul...](https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-
committers/2018-July/005664.html)
~~~
muhbags
It is definitely useful, but it severely reduces readability in my opinion.
Your example is also a great example for this. The first version in way more
readable than the second version with the walrus operator.
~~~
gonational
I agree with you.
It's very exciting to remove these sorts of redundant lines, but I cannot
train my brain to intuitively view that line as it will be interpreted.
There is one case where the benefit, IMHO, far outweighs the negatives, and
that can be seen in slides 30-31 of Dustin Ingram's slideshow[1].
PEP 572... the day Python jumped the walrus.
1\. [https://speakerdeck.com/di_codes/pep-572-the-walrus-
operator...](https://speakerdeck.com/di_codes/pep-572-the-walrus-
operator?slide=30)
~~~
legostormtroopr
I can't take a programming talk seriously if it declares in giant font "Less
lines are better" (slide 38).
Any C program can be written as a single line, with no linebreaks - that
doesn't make it "better" by any metric.
Python is built around its readability, and slide 44:
> group = match.group(1) if (match := re.match(data)) else None
is anything but. 'match' is assigned _after_ its first use, and it took me far
to long to mentally parse what it was doing.
~~~
maceurt
C is different than python though. Python already forces readability things
like forcing indent and newline. In most scenarios making a python program in
as few lines as possble will make the program more readible.
------
xtreak29
There were notable performance improvments with several positional argument
only functions made 1.3-1.7x faster in stdlib
[https://bugs.python.org/issue35582](https://bugs.python.org/issue35582).
namedtuple attr access is also now 1.7x faster
[https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/10495](https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/10495)
Other performance improvments :
[https://github.com/python/cpython/pulls?q=is%3Apr+sort%3Aupd...](https://github.com/python/cpython/pulls?q=is%3Apr+sort%3Aupdated-
desc+label%3Atype-performance+is%3Aclosed)
------
nine_k
The key changes seem to be [PEP-572], a bunch of small backward-compatible
syntax changes, a bunch of AST (internal) changes, and bugfixes (of course).
# You can now write
if (match := pattern.search(data)) is not None:
# Do something with match
# or even
[y for x in data if (y := f(x)) is not None]
This is what I personally very much anticipated.
Also nice:
# This is now supported.
x: Tuple[int, int] = 1, 2 # No parens.
yield 1, 2, 3, *rest # No parens again.
[PEP-572]:
[https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0572/](https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0572/)
~~~
mikepurvis
That list comprehension is the most compelling case I've seen for this
functionality; far more so than the basic assignment + if.
~~~
nine_k
Yes, sometimes, writing a comprehension, I was dearly missing the `let` /
`where`, as seen in e.g. Haskell, or lisps.
------
Jeff_Brown
Are assignment expressions the only linguistic change?
For years,I've been holding my breath in Python for sum types, totality
checking, and an enforced, complete type system -- one where you can say "this
should be a list of lists of integers" and it won't let you put any other kind
of thing there.
(Yes, there are external typing solutions like PyPy, but last I checked they
did not offer complete type systems (you could specify that something is a
list, but not that it's a list of ints), nor did they permit totality checking
(so if type X is a sum type with two constructors X1 and X2, and f is a
function that takes an X as input, and you forgot to define what happens if f
is given an X2, it would not know to complain that you hadn't covered all
possibilities).
~~~
netheril96
> but not that it’s a list of ints
Python type annotations do support such use case: List[int].
~~~
Jeff_Brown
Just tried it. What's the point of type signatures if the compiler won't hold
you to the promises you've made? This is in Python 3.6.4:
>>> def f (x:int) -> int: return x+1
...
>>> def g (x:str) -> str: return f(x)
...
>>> g(1)
2
I expected a complaint after the second definition: I specified that g takes
and returns a string, and then defined it to take and return an int. Not only
did Python not catch the error at compile time (defining g), it didn't even
catch it at runtime (calling g).
~~~
detaro
Type annotations are just that: annotations. They currently have no meaning to
the CPython interpreter and are purely consumed by external tooling (IDEs,
there's a static typechecker called mypy, ...) or code that chooses to use
them (e.g. there's web frameworks that convert and validate parameter types
according to the signature of the handler function)
------
ian-g
I wonder if anybody has seen anything happening about PEP 582 for a local
packages directory. It's definitely something I'd like to see implemented
------
just_myles
I have done a lot of work in Postgres pgsql writing functions and procedures
and the walrus operator is an assignment operator. Welcome all :D .
~~~
mixmastamyk
It is also assignment in Pascal, though doesn't return the value.
------
mistrial9
I am a proponent of LTS for Python 2.7x and existing libraries. This walrus
operator is a fine new feature, for those that want it in Python 3.8x and
beyond. Sorry, not sorry !
~~~
ma2rten
I can't wait for 2020.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Dart: A Simple, Elegant Language Programmers Will Love - egduff
http://blog.stablekernel.com/dart-google-language
======
gmosx
Dart is not just an elegant language, more like a complete programming
environment.
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"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
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Ask HN: Best books/resources on running a lean/bootstrapped company? - philippnagel
======
hawe
The Single Founder Handbook -
[http://www.singlefounderhandbook.com/](http://www.singlefounderhandbook.com/)
?
------
pacnw
The obvious ones: The Lean Startup - Eric Ries, Rework - Jason Fried & DHH,
Getting Real - Jason Fried
------
ignasl
Traction is also good book
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
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Symmetry Minute - unixhero
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symmetry_minute
======
niftich
Although I'm familiar with this concept since the implementation of ITF
(integrated clock-face timetables) in Central Europe, I found the second half
of this article (as of this revision [1]) hard to read. After finishing it, I
felt like I understood less about clock-face scheduling than I did before.
Nonetheless, I know that the key desirable features are (1) to ensure that
hub-like nodes have services from all directions arrive and leave at the same
time, so that connecting passengers don't need to wait for long, and (2) that
a future arrival/departure time at a major node is somewhat predictable
without consulting the full timetable.
For trains, it's also a nice feature that trains of opposite directions will
meet somewhere predictable, so track improvements like double-tracking can be
targeted at places where crossings are likely to occur, which can cost less
than double-tracking the entire line.
Integrated clock-face timetables work best when rigid, but it requires the
spacetime of transport geography to fit into a regular pattern. But this can
mean that some improvements that would result in faster service on portions of
the network would put the the network out of sync. Because of this
complication, such incremental improvements may not happen.
[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Symmetry_minute&o...](https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Symmetry_minute&oldid=865986472)
~~~
itcrowd
I had the same problem with the Wiki article! But, to be honest I had the same
with the last part of your comment. Could you explain your last paragraph in
other words because I don't really understand what you mean there?
~~~
wongarsu
For simplicity's sake assume we have two short train lines, one takes one hour
from start to finish, one takes two hours. They always meet at the same point,
everything works out. But if you can improve the track to speed up line 1 by
10 minutes everything goes out of sync.
------
Smaug123
This is amusingly similar to the old chestnut "I have a rope of nonuniform
thickness, and it will take one hour to burn its entire length. How can I
measure half an hour?"
~~~
Y_Y
I don't think this non-uniform, flammable rope would be allowed in the EU.
Even then it's hardly the right tool for the job of measuring time.
~~~
boomskats
You mean, like those bananas?
~~~
H8crilA
Hey it's not just the EU that is strangely obsessed with bananas. It's a big
deal m'kay, governments were toppled and CIA was involved:
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_Guatemalan_coup_d'%C3%A...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_Guatemalan_coup_d'%C3%A9tat)
------
oneplane
To me, the most interesting thing about this is that I was familiar with the
implementation but never figured this was a thing on its own or even has a
name. Makes sense that stuff like timing, scheduling etc. has a field of
knowledge on its own. This makes me wonder what other unknowns in the area of
commonly used processes I don't know about.
~~~
unixhero
Actually. These incredibly interesting Wikipedia articles pop up here on HN
from time to time. And with that here is my contribution. I suggest you search
for wikipedia.org with the HN search engine to find more Wikipedia articles
with interesting stuff.
------
p0cc
Similar Submission (1 day ago) about Denmark's Train ambitions:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20464602](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20464602)
Top comment is related and references Clock-face scheduling
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clock-
face_scheduling](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clock-face_scheduling)).
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
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Rintagi Low-Code Generated ReactJS Applications: The Future Is Reactive - Rintagi
https://medium.com/rintagi/rintagi-low-code-generated-reactjs-applications-the-future-is-reactive-e430319687ef
======
Rintagi
Rintagi, the first open-source low-code development platform from Robocoder,
empowers users to create enterprise-grade applications with limitless
extension and rejuvenation.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Studios win $110 million in TorrentSpy suit - nreece
http://www.reuters.com/article/industryNews/idUSN0831061320080509
======
rms
Is this the first ruling to establish that torrent files themselves are
illegal in the USA?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
What's your take on the save mysql? - pedalpete
http://www.helpmysql.org
======
tentonova2
It's duplicitous and wrong. He sold the product, and now he is actively
undermining the product that he sold with the potential of costing Sun/Oracle
considerable sums of money to defend against his clearly self-serving claims.
Even if Monty does not succeed, he has the ability to do significant damage to
Oracle, Sun, and even industry perceptions of not only the GPL, but of open
source in general.
~~~
mbreese
> he is actively undermining the product
I wonder when some Sun/Oracle lawyer is going to give him a call and let him
know about the legal trouble he could be in for this. I mean, wouldn't this
type of behavior have been dealt with in the original MySQL purchase
agreement?
~~~
gte910h
He's urging public bodies to block the merger. I doubt they can have an
effective agreement that involves anything more than firing him. And he
doesn't work there anymore.
------
briansmith
If you sold something for a billion dollars, and you had a 1% chance of
getting it back just by writing some letters and blog posts, so that you could
sell it again for another billion dollars, would you do it? If you had a much-
higher-than-1% chance of getting Sun/Oracle to pay you many millions of
dollars just to STFU, would you do it?
Some of us would say "no," others "yes." Monty is definitely a "yes" man.
~~~
jonny_noog
If I managed to sell something for a billion dollars, I'd be off doing
something more interesting than trying to make more money for the sake of it.
I guess that makes me a "no" man.
------
jacquesm
I think it's easy, if you sell it you lose it.
If Monty wants to continue working on MySQL he should simply fork the project
and get it over with. Announce the new name, if he manages to assemble a good
enough team then I'm sure he will gain some traction.
It's not like he couldn't hire a few talented people.
In fact, using some of the money he made from the SUN deal in order to do this
would probably be one of the best ways to make use of it, provided his
contracts do not stop him from doing that.
~~~
joshu
I think the problem is that he would have to fork from the GPL'd version,
which means he can't sell a proprietary fork.
(Someone please correct me as I am most probably wrong)
~~~
gte910h
The issue is that you can't write non-open source programs on it anymore. You
have to write JUST GPL programs with it.
It doesn't have a linking exception like Linux does [which allows you to write
non-GPL programs to run on it].
Basically, the dude used pure GPL [a bad idea in my book] with no linking
exceptions. He did this to make $$$$ off of the dual licensing scam that MySql
AB [The company] was doing. He then sold the company, and got bit in the ass,
because you can't make a useful fork of the application due to the overly
restrictive license [which pure GPL is for a library, such as MySQL].
Basically, if you wrote a proprietary app that uses MySQL, you're hosed if
regulators don't block this.
~~~
mbreese
You're only hosed if you use the C library. If you use a Free/Open source
licensed language (Python,PHP,etc...), you're in the clear. MySQL has a FOSS
licensing exception (and always has). So the clients for these languages
aren't GPL-viral.
Now the C-library is a different story. If you want to use it, then you're
looking either GPL or one of their supported FOSS licenses. So, it isn't quite
as bad as you're making it sound.
What really needs to happen is to have someone write an LGPL or BSD MySQL
client library. That would pretty much put up a licensing firewall. This might
even be the case with something like DBSlayer. It would be even more clear if
the middleware supported multiple DB backends.
MySQL has always straddled this GPL/FOSS/proprietary fence, and never made it
very clear if you really needed a commercial license. I could be
'misremembering', but I thought that at one time they even explicitly said
that if you used Python/Perl/PHP/etc you could write proprietary software w/o
a commercial license. However, they also said that if your program "required
MySQL features" that you had to have a commercial license. They made all of
their money off of this confusion. But I think that if a third-party BSD
client library spoke the correct binary protocol to the server, that you'd be
in the clear. Then again, I'm not a lawyer...
<http://www.mysql.com/about/legal/licensing/foss-exception/>
~~~
carey
I read somewhere recently (here or proggit?) about libdrizzle, which is a BSD-
licensed client library that is compatible with the MySQL network protocol.
The developers are quite clear that you can use it with their own GPL 2
database server: <https://answers.launchpad.net/drizzle/+faq/134>
------
gte910h
I've always thought the Oracle acquisition a bad bad thing.
Then again, I always thought using GPL for a database is ALSO a bad bad thing.
It probably should have been LGPL at the most, probably something like
apache/MIT/BSD instead.
To my opinion, this is MySQL AB's old owners getting bitten in the ass for
their greedy dual licensing model. They should have licensed it with a more
permissive license.
------
nfnaaron
My take is if mysql is important to you as a resource, get together with
similar people and settle on a fork, then move on.
As for trying to influence the status of any IP owned by Sun and acquired by
Oracle ... good luck with that.
~~~
gte910h
Europe's merger approval body is already concerned, I think there is a real
chance the merger may at least block for awhile unless they address something
along this angle.
The issue with MySQL is there is a lot of stuff built on it MySQL AB said is
"okay" that isn't specifically allowed in the license. That damages hundreds
if not thousands of other projects that are in that gray area. Oracle has a
huge incentive to enforce the actual license on these companies....so now you
see the issue.
------
gojomo
I'm concerned about having a leading (by usership) free SQL database under the
control of the leading (by revenue) proprietary SQL database vendor.
And, I believe it would ultimately be better for MySQL users for it to be
under a more permissive, non-copyleft license. It allows for a broader
commercial ecosystem.
But, I'm uncomfortable with regulators telling companies what to do with their
lawfully acquired property/rights based on speculation about potential abuses
that haven't even occurred yet.
And, I'm uncomfortable with someone who chose for their own benefit one
doctrinaire set of rules -- the GPL -- now asking for the rules to be
rewritten, against the wishes of the people to whom he sold his package of
rights.
So I can't support the campaign, even though I'd like one of its sought end
states (non-copyleft MySQL).
Maybe if someone other then Widenius led a purely-antitrust-based case for
divesting or relicensing MySQL. As an advocate, he's tainted.
------
manbearpig
My personal opinion is that it's time to let SQL and RDMS go. Free the world
from the shackles of schema.
~~~
gte910h
I don't know why you're getting downvoted.
If the oracle approach is voted through without forcing an licencing exception
change, I will be pushing people VERY strongly to NoSql solutions who need any
scalability. MySQL was pretty much the best solution for many projects, and
being used as a base with it in the hands of Oracle is a questionable thing to
advise from a business risk perspective.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
How the human penis lost its spines - tokenadult
http://www.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/03/09/penis.spines.genes/
======
btilly
The article talks about the genetics, but doesn't really answer the
evolutionary question. So I'm going to speculate in a somewhat informed
fashion.
First I'll start with a fun fact. Humans have a penis that is several times
larger than you would expect looking at other primate species. In fact there
is clear evidence that humans have undergone sexual selection for penises that
women like. (And there is evidence that women enjoy size.) By contrast what a
chimp's penis is like is pretty much the least important thing about him as
far as the female is concerned. Much, much more important is how big and
strong he is, and likely to pound her if she doesn't comply with his wishes
RIGHT NOW. (Chimp sexual behavior is really not very nice.)
Therefore I'm going to propose a hypothesis. They have suggested that spines
help in removing your competitor's sperm. I'm going to suggest that spines are
less pleasant for females. Therefore in humans, who seem to have undergone
sexual selection based on what women think about men's penises, spines have
been lost. While in most other species, where female preference on penises is
not a sexual selection criteria, spines win.
------
joshu
It's always the last place you look.
------
jarin
Well, I'm glad we got that cleared up.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
WIKILEAKS RELEASE: The Global Intelligence Files. Over 5 million emails - locusm
http://wikileaks.org/the-gifiles.html?nocache
======
keeran
The press release (if servers are still being hammered):
<http://pastebin.com/D7sR4zhT>
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Business networking for nerds (2017) - Olshansky
http://benjaminreinhardt.com/networking-for-nerds/
======
jnbiche
I've recently returned to professional programming after working in another
profession for 10 years. My former profession (let's call it "medical
transcription" for the sake of my anonymity) is a dying profession, and is
being replaced by a combination of technology and global outsourcing.
Now, with relatively few exceptions, the only people who can actually make a
good living at medical transcription are the master networkers and
salespeople. And even though they present themselves as being "successful" at
making a good living at medical transcription, what they really are making
money doing is selling courses and books to people who want to get into the
(dying) profession. Of course, they never mention to those people that it's
increasingly difficult to make a decent living at medical transcription.
This isn't the first time I've watched social butterfly networkers and
salespeople take advantage of people and engage in ethically dubious conduct,
so I have a bad taste in my mouth regarding networking. I'm also an introvert,
so I'm naturally very bad at networking.
That said, I also realize that I could be doing much better financially and
professionally if I had a strong network of friends and colleagues,
particularly as I'm starting at a new profession in my 40s.
It's frustrating.
EDIT: Changed a few sentences to make it clearer that the dying profession I'm
referring to isn't programming.
~~~
pm90
I have not had the same experience as you have. Maybe it depends on the city?
In the Bay Area hardcore engineering is still in enormous demand. I had
expected automation and the cloud to reduce the demand for engineers, but it’s
actually increased the demand for engineers familiar with cloud technologies.
~~~
jnbiche
I was unclear. The profession I'm talking about is not related to engineering.
However, I don't want to be more specific because the profession in question
is fairly unusual and I don't wish to identify myself.
------
incompatible
Think of how much society is set back because people who have no interest or
ability with "networking" aren't given the opportunities that they should have
had. Instead, we end up with the most socially aggressive / self promoting
running practically everything (badly).
~~~
chrisseaton
If you call it 'networking' it sounds bad.
If you call it 'getting out there and speaking to people, listening to what
their problems, hopes, opinions are, and sharing the same yourself and making
a connection to see if you can mutually help each other' then it suddenly
sounds like a better thing, doesn't it?
~~~
fenwick67
Networking isn't talking to people about important things. It's talking to
people with the specific goal of moving your career forward. That's what makes
chronic networkers insufferable, and those people give networking a bad rap.
~~~
eropple
I network _all the damn time_. I talk to people. I get lunch with new people
who I don't know (there's a standing invite in my HN profile for a reason). I
don't have some Specific Goal of Moving My Career Forward. I like people, I
like meeting people, I like learning about them, and in the future maybe I'll
do them a solid or they'll do me one.
It pays off, though. And it's fun.
But I have never started a conversation (at least, not with somebody I didn't
already know well, like my boss) with the Specific Goal of Moving My Career
Forward.
If that's what you think networking is, you're missing out.
~~~
tomjen3
Small note on that one: you probably want to include an e-mail in your about
field.
I have and don't receive much spam.
~~~
eropple
No? Good to know. I'll do that. Thanks.
------
PakG1
Maybe I've been going to the wrong events, but I've never gone to a networking
event where I made a contact with whom I ever had contact for a third time.
Extremely rarely would I have contact for a second time. Well... no, sometimes
I'd see them at additional networking events.
I've stopped going to networking events to network. Usually, I won't go if the
sole focus is networking. If there's another purpose that's the primary
purpose, I might go, depending on what that is.
------
barcadad
Edison, EINSTEIN, and Musk?? You think that "general relativity project" would
never have gotten off the ground without some solid networking skills by Al?
Or developing quantum theory from a Swiss patent office? Maybe go with Edison
Jobs and Musk instead.
~~~
nicklovescode
Actually Einstein was great at reaching out to others in the field and
discussing ideas with them. He also voraciously applied to various programs to
find great places to work.
He’s no Edison in terms of networking, but it is interesting that even a
cononical super-nerd creating theories in their basement (or patent-office)
still gets value out of it.
~~~
fsloth
This. The entire progress of science happened because illuminaries and savants
started sharing their discoveries and discussing them in groups. There was an
enormous amount of individual work involved as well, of course, which was the
main element, but without the networking part to vet and discuss the result
science would really not have happened.
------
ai_ia
Misread as 'Networking for Hackers' and thought finally going to learn more
about networking.
~~~
desertrider12
Me too. I know I'm a nerd now...
------
mstaoru
I'm one of those people who hug their glass of water, finds a cozy (i.e.
devoid of people) corner, and pretends something is very important in their
phone. The few contacts I had from those events were never helpful, and I'm
not a kind of person to keep an Excel and reach out to people on schedule
pretending I care. (I understand there are people who do care, I'm just not
this type.)
I found the best way for me to meet new people is... smoking a pipe. It's a
greatly enjoyable hobby by itself, and it always draws people at least to
comment on the smell or ask me something like "hey, where do you get this
stuff?" (I'm in China and naked tobacco is illegal here... go figure). Once
the ice is broken, I feel much better about having a conversation. It also
helps that most people who are interested in the pipe are somewhat relatable.
------
dorchadas
I've found the biggest issue for me to be finding places _to_ network. I'm
currently an educator (want to shift careers) and don't live in a city, which
means my options are limited. I love going out and meeting new people and
learning about them, though, so I wish I could find a place to do this.
------
alexashka
This was very reasonable and well written.
'Keep it short and sweet' or 'minimize friction' if I were to summarize it.
I don't know that there are excellent ideas with solid execution that go to
the graveyard, because nerds just couldn't network their way to the top
however.
There has never been a better time for intelligent, hard working people to see
their ideas come to fruition. There is all sorts of infrastructure in place to
help you - schools, loans, accelerator programs like Y Combinator, the
internet!
While I don't want to minimize the value of having social skills for your
relationships with your loved ones if nothing else - it is important to know
who are and bet on your strengths, there's plenty of infrastructure to fill in
the gaps.
------
projektir
I'm not sure how I feel about networking but I really like the part about
meeting arrangement (Pre-Meeting Motions). It's amazing how drawn-out meeting
scheduling can get if you are not proactively concrete about it. I don't
usually do calendar invites, though, and that is actually a good idea. I had
it happen when we agreed on a date and time, but then they thought it was a
different day of the week for some reason.
------
BeetleB
Although I know many people hate the book, but Keith Ferrazzi's "Never Eat
Alone" is well worth reading - both for the practical tips, but also for the
_attitude_ one should adopt while networking (the more you care about others,
the more they are likely to help you).
------
etical
Are there any other sites/blogs that talk about professional communication
like this? I found this very clear and helpful, while a lot of other sites
I’ve read are either overly generic or focus on what not to do.
------
aryehof
When meeting someone at at an event or conference, what is the best way to
exchange details? Does one need a business card, or do we just give a
Twitter/Facebook id, or a email address or phone number etc?
------
mathattack
The article seems to miss the key way to succeed at networking: help as many
people as you can before asking for help.
------
purplezooey
I liked the "projection" thing. Seems very true and effective.
------
jzwinck
"Do I need to bring a table or just my computer?"
She stared. "What?"
"I have a 21 inch monitor and I can bring a folding table," I said.
Still clearly confused, she asked, "Why would you bring a computer?"
Oh, that kind of networking party. "Never mind."
\- a true story from university
~~~
marnett
This hurts how relatable this is.
~~~
rudolph9
Yeah I was really hoping computer networking when I opened this and was sorely
disappointed.
------
jimnotgym
Am I the only person who clicked the link hoping to read about the OSI 7 layer
model?
~~~
icpmacdo
This is the common sentiment in this thread lol, is there a canonical
reference for the other type of Networking(osi) for Nerds HN?
~~~
jimnotgym
The Wikipedia articles are very good in terms of detail, but I didn't find
them accessible. I thought about writing some more accessible ones for non-
tech people after a request from a colleague for something even a manager
could understand!
------
wiradikusuma
OOT but funny:
During uni time, a friend invited me and my other friend to a "networking
event". Being computer science students, the two of us thought it's "computer
networking". Heck, we just had Network 101 class the day before.
We asked the inviter, and he did confirm it (but smiled). When we reached
there, I didn't see any computer stuff, but I saw grandparents, uncles and
aunties (basically, people I wouldn't relate with computer). I thought, "Wow,
this organizer really good at convincing computer illiterate people to learn
about computer networks."
The first speaker showed up, enthusiastically greeting us out loud, "Good
morning everyone!" (it was noon) and started talking about fulfilling your
dreams and Ferraris.
My friend tricked us to a MLM event (we knew what MLM was, and not with a good
reputation).
Cut story short, the inviter is no longer my friend.
------
paulgrant999
I can attest to to his point about having a "story"; I have many skillsets
(across several fields) and I went in to pitch for a position I could do in my
sleep, and did not get the job. The last comment made by the owner of the
company was "what job would we put you in?" and I replied, "it doesn't matter
I can do every job in your organization." (having done every job prior in a
similar organization, and demonstrated as such!).
They literally didn't hire me, because they couldn't figure out where I fit in
their organization. Never mind the qualifications; never mind the ability, or
the direct experience. They simply boggled, at where they could put me.
And its been repeated over and over. They aren't hiring people, they are
hiring cogs. People like me, break their tiny worldviews, and they simply
can't handle it. Its fucking retarded.
I had one guy I emailed, reply back "Sorry we're picking someone more
qualified; 20 minutes into the work day", to which I replied "be fucking
serious. I used to do this in the first 10 minutes of my day. whats the real
reason?" He replied back "we don't think we could keep you." i.e. cog for 20
years needed.
When I started my career, I got fired from three temp jobs, for suggesting
ways I could automate their entire process, and instead of it taking months, I
could do it in under a week.
The whole employment racket, is bloody retarded.
~~~
cmehdy
Not every place seeks the jack-of-all-trades types of people. It isn't
necessarily because of any dehumanizing train of thought, but more likely
because of a more pragmatic one: they might not have the company structure to
support people with those profiles and give them room to grow, to contribute
in ways that are both nourishing for the company's and the employee's goals.
I find myself often drained by the type of situation you mention encountering
(although I seem tot lack the self-confidence you are pushing there), but a
recent experience has allowed me to see that some structures might
theoretically want my profile but practically not be ready to embrace it. In a
way, the interviews you encountered might be at places that are more realistic
with their own skills and needs.
I do wish you the best in trying to find the right fit.
~~~
arandr0x
What kind of job would you and the parent poster recommend jack-of-all-trades
people who just want to get things done apply to? Sales in some environments
is ideal for this but for introverts?
~~~
cmehdy
I've found that the umbrella term "DevOps" carries a lot more than what most
people might realize, creating an interesting space to solve problems that are
about logistics, technicalities, human behaviour, communication, planning and
execution of projects, etc.
YMMV, but I find that any "good" engineer can learn to excel where the need
is, provided the structure is there to support and encourage such behaviour
(which is easier said than done, and most often what you will get to judge
when interviewing).
------
ptr_void
Everything about networking is shady and discriminatory. Networking should be
made illegal.
~~~
fibers
you will not pry my cisco switches from my cold dead hands
~~~
whorleater
Juniper switches are the only ones for me
------
ryanmarsh
Bad advice. Networking is a high cost low value activity. It’s a pre-internet
strategy for building trust in the absence of information about competency.
Today anyone can find anyone they’re looking for. Today on the internet there
are many businesses and people who make money by amplifying others with new or
novel things, or some value.
Just build things you care about and share your work online. Give it to the
amplifiers and let them amplify. Good will come. In the internet age
“networking” is for losers.
~~~
falcor84
>Give it to the amplifiers ...
How are you supposed to meet these amplifiers then and get them to care about
your work?
~~~
ryanmarsh
Email them. If it’s interesting they’ll amplify it. These people make their
living be being “in the know” on all the great new stuff.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
No-cost desktop software development is dead on Windows 8 - Goronmon
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/05/no-cost-desktop-software-development-is-dead-on-windows-8
======
programminggeek
I think that non-windows devs don't realize how much Windows devs LOVE Visual
Studio. They will spend however much money it costs to use it. Also, VS is
like $500-600? Devs pay that for IntelliJ all day long, so why not VS?
Honestly, for a tool you would use all day long at work, $500 is cheap. If you
NEED Visual Studio for C++, then it's worth the money.
Sure, on Linux and OS X you get free dev tools like XCode and GCC, but MSFT
spends a lot of money building these tools, so if they decide they no longer
want to subsidize them by offering them free, it's their business.
They want devs making Metro apps, not old Win32 C++ apps. If they don't get
Metro apps to be built in a big way, Windows 8 tablet edition for human beings
2012 is never going to take off.
It makes sense for Microsoft.
~~~
gouranga
developers only like visual studio because either they haven't had much
experience with anything else, they use languages that require massive amounts
of IDE to be practical or they paid for it which results in 'money bias'.
Its rarely because they knowingly like it.
That's the opinion I've managed to deduce after working with over 200 heavy vs
users over 10 years.
~~~
potatolicious
I beg to differ. I've written code on Windows, OS X, and Linux, with tools
ranging anywhere between Xcode, VS, and plain old vim.
Visual Studio is a fine IDE that has a lot of things going for it. Hell, now
that I write Obj-C for a living I wish Xcode was more like VS (especially when
it comes to stability).
In contrast, I'd rather marathon American Idol than use Eclipse for a single
day.
~~~
gouranga
Xcode is horrid. I used it for a year or so in 2008 on a project so I agree
there.
Eclipse is fine when you get used to it. It has a fairly hefty learning curve
but when you get there, it's awesome.
~~~
drewcrawford
XCode has matured very recently. It's gone from worst IDE to arguably best in
a very short amount of time.
Recent additions include integrated Git, code intelligence so good that it
understands C++ templates, in-IDE static analysis, one-keystroke to fix typos
in identifiers, etc.
~~~
to3m
Hmm...
No scripting. Cretinous window layout facilities. No search and replace in
selection. No mixed source/disassembly view. Registers view disappears when as
you debug. No keyboard shortcut for rectangular selections. Code browsing menu
'thing' doesn't show structs. That stupid log navigator is too damn narrow,
and has a proportional font. Pasting of rectangular selections doesn't work.
No column/line number display. Lacks numerous basic simple text manipulation
commands.
------
gouranga
Good. Microsoft can officially go to hell with respect to desktop development
after the day I've had today dredging through a debugging job from hell.
75% of my time writing software is:
* Watching VS crash miserably. It's just seriously unreliable.
* Digging through MSDN trying to find out cryptic errors.
* Desperately trying to debug issues with various black boxes (today was 4 hours on a w3wp crash due to a CLR.dll bug related to stack usage resulting in an interesting session with EDITBIN).
* Dredging through hotfix lists trying to find out which one solved a problem.
* Sitting on the phone for HOURS to MS support who barely speak a work of English these days and don't give a shit - they just want you to fuck off so they can close the case. This is usually because two products won't talk to each other (IE and ClickOnce for example).
* WAITING LITERALLY FUCKING HOURS for things to compile and rebuild.
* Endless fucking updates that take several minutes to apply, sometimes an hour plus. I WANT TO USE MY FUCKING COMPUTER.
Not much:
* solving problems of my own.
Sorry for the rant but that's why it's really dead.
Good riddance.
It's all a "me too" as google and apple have app stores.
Bring on the web for everything.
~~~
keithwarren
You are clearly a troll who has either A) Spent no time using VS in real life
or B) well...see A
~~~
gouranga
Indeed I'm trolling so bad because I've only clocked approximately 18000 hours
of using it in real life since the first beta drop of VS.Net 2002 to 22:15
this evening...
Yes that's really three zeroes rounded down heavily (8 hours a day, 23 days a
month, 12 months a year for 10 years)...
~~~
keithwarren
Being that there was never a VS.Net 2002...It was merely Visual Studio.NET
But I digress.
Even if I assume honesty from you, what does it say about you that you would
use a tool for 18K hours and then berate it in such a way because you had a
bad day today? I have been using VS in its various forms since 1995 and while
it can be buggy and can crash - it is still a venerable tool. I use XCode,
MonoDevlop, RubyMine and Eclipse as well and they all have problems. Claiming
VS is 'seriously unreliable' basically makes people ignore everything you say
after that because millions of people know better. Crash yes, on
occasion...unreliable is different.
~~~
gouranga
It is referred to as VS.Net 2002 after VS.Net 2003 came out with .Net 1.1 if
you want to be pendantic.
If you really want to be pedantic, Visual Studio .Net 7.0.
It's not just today - it's been 10 years of hell. Unfortunately it pays the
bills (just about).
It's not venerable tool. It's like sitting in front of a pressing machine that
pokes you in the eye once an hour, but not quite enough to do you serious
damage.
I've been poked in the eye 18,000 times.
------
marshray
It seems Microsoft only has one reliable tactical move: leverage the installed
base of Windows users. They always fall back on this strategy whenever they
want to prop up some other product.
For developers, they often provided carrots to encourage them in a certain
direction. This tended to work sort of well, as there are always large numbers
of new CS students expecting the Microsoft-recommended stack to provide a
reliable career ticket. Maybe after they saw what Microsoft just did to
Silverlight developers and they're not so eager to follow that path.
I never thought that they'd go so far as to actually take the stick to native
Win32 developers. How can they not realize how much of their app ecosystem is
still built on native code and how much easier it is to get started with that
type of development on other platforms?
(In every one of these forums one or two people pop up to say how great this
will be for developers and you can still use the free Visual Studio 2010
Express Edition to write native code or managed code to write C++. This is not
correct, that product is crippleware and the managed code stuff is not
anything like native C++.)
------
patio11
Directly contrary to the thesis of the article: Microsoft is _absurdly_
generous with software licenses if you're going to build on their stack. Even
without getting a deal from the inside, you can get on their e.g. BizSpark
program, which gets you essentially _every software product made by Microsoft_
for free for three years.
<http://www.microsoft.com/bizspark/>
The only requirements are you have to be working on the MS stack, privately
held, and making less than a million bucks.
~~~
mythz
You're right it is _absurd_ \-- to think it's generosity. Whilst most
development stacks these days are free in-beer-and-use for life - Microsoft
gives you unlimited access to try out all their wares hoping you get hooked on
as much of it as possible so when the 3 year is up, you're up for the lump
some of your IT development infrastructure. It's a lot harder to move off a
platform once you're hooked on it so by doing this Microsoft expects a life-
long re-occurring income as your infrastructure upgrades and grows.
This 3 year "absurd generosity" is nothing more than a classic bait and switch
Marketing strategy - although it does have the pleasant side-effect of not
immediately obvious, and is sometimes mistaken for generosity.
~~~
ctdonath
By the time your biz has been developing for Windows for _3 years_ you should
be able to afford the tools. It's not bait-and-switch, it's helping customers
use a product to make money with which they can pay for the product - more a
"pay only if it works for you" model. Fair enough.
~~~
mythz
> It's not bait-and-switch, it's helping customers use a product
It's only helping customers _choose their product_ and "3 years free!" makes
the MS Stack look like a better choice than it really is against the "really
is free for life" stacks. This all happens at the most critical time for a
business - when stakeholders decide what platform they're going to adopt.
Meanwhile whilst your busy building your business on their stack MS is free to
raise their prices - and SQL Server is amongst the most expensive licences and
hosting there is, which has recently seen liberal price increases - whilst at
the same time offering a sweet migration path to their expensive subscription-
in-the-sky services (aka Azure).
~~~
statictype
So do you feel the same way about Basecamp or ZenDesk or Salesforce offering
30-day free trials?
They also have the ability to crank up the price whenever they feel like it.
They're also offering their product 'for free' at the most critical time for a
business - when deciding what product to use.
The only way what you say makes sense is if people buying into the program are
dumb enough or ill-informed enough to not know that there are open-source
alternatives available for what they want to do.
~~~
mythz
I don't use either myself.
But no one is confusing their free-trials as anything other than a marketing
strategy to maintain a low barrier to entry to get more people to first try
then use their product.
i.e. I've never heard anyone say SalesForce is absurdly generous because of
their free trials.
------
jlarocco
This seems like a huge over reaction, and bordering on misinformation.
First of all, for the longest time there were no free versions of Visual
Studio for producing any kind of application.
Second, even the recent "Express" versions have always been severely crippled.
Where were the "No-cost 64-bit development is Dead on Windows 7" when the
previous Express versions were released?
The Express versions are more like promotional tools than real versions of VS.
For any serious development you'll probably need to buy a VS license anyway.
~~~
smiler
Exactly, Express didn't allow you to manage class library projects, which
rules out almost all serious development anyway.
~~~
ramchip
I've built class libraries just fine with Express. Personally, what is a
problem for me is that it can't handle multi-language projects.
~~~
smiler
Apologies - I thought this was a restriction on early versions, maybe they
changed it with later ones
------
loso
I started off as a hobbyist developer who thought you had to use Visual Studio
to develop for Windows. So I pirated a copy because I couldn't afford the real
thing. As soon as I figured out that there were cheaper or open source
alternatives, I uninstalled and went that route. The Express versions made me
look at Windows development again.
Even though I can afford the Professional version now, I really don't like to
see the way that they are going. I think its boneheaded and might close them
off to a new generation of programmers. Open Source and IOS development are
already seen as the "cool thing". I don't see how this move gets Microsoft
back into the good graces of a younger generation of programmers.
------
mmcconnell1618
I see this as just another side-effect of letting a marketing guy (Balmer)
take the helm instead of a developer (Gates). As soon as visual studio became
segmented into different versions it no longer represented a product designed
to increase developer adoption of Windows. Instead, it became a potential
profit center. A short-term financial gain at the long-term expense of Windows
applications and market share.
Companies that are willing to take long term risks are not valued in a world
of high frequency trading. Balmer is hoping that by force feeding Windows 8
Metro apps down developer throats he will convince Wall Street that Microsoft
isn't dead yet.
------
cobrausn
"It's very likely that most productivity applications will stick with the
desktop for some years to come. The same is true of utility programs, AAA-
gaming titles, and a large swath of current Windows software..."
My bet is most of these developers currently pay for Visual Studio
professional versions anyway. So, not much different for them. Seems like the
new restrictions are just for hobby development - they'll be forced to make
Metro-style apps, which is what they (MS) wants.
~~~
marshray
How do you think these professional Windows developers got into it before they
turned pro? Hint: most of them didn't learn it in college.
~~~
mattmanser
Downloaded VB6 for free from Kazaa?
Not me of course...
I actually remember trying to decide between eclipse and VB6. What whim made
me end up choosing the latter now completely escapes me. I think it was
because it didn't have those weird {} braces. Ah, C#, the irony.
~~~
flomo
Note you could buy a copy of VB for about $100. Which wasn't a bad deal
considering it came with a thousand pages of manuals & tutorials.
~~~
mattmanser
At the time I was a hobbyist straight out of uni where £100 was rather a lot
of money (yeah, they always convert dollars to pounds over here, greedy
buggers). And I didn't need a manual as I picked up a 'learn VB6 in 30 days
book'. Classic.
The trouble with all these 'cheap cause you use it all the time' tools is that
to start with you don't want to use them all the time. So they're relatively
very expensive.
For example I was just re-learning programming to prove a point to my boss
that the internal IT program sucked.
------
brudgers
If my VS 2010 Express Edition works, why should I care?
Not having the 2011 IDE isn't going to affect my productivity anywhere near
the degree that a lack of coding expertise does...it's not like I need to rush
out and upgrade just for the sake of upgrading. If I have an excuse to skip an
upgrade cycle next year, that's fine with me.
Over the long term, I expect Microsoft to continue to provide appropriate
tools for the amazing price of free as in beer...again, it's just hard for me
to see what someone is complaining about when 2010 Express Edition will
continue to be available.
Finally, Reading through the comments, there's very little, "I use VS Express
and now I'm screwed." I've played around with Windows Phone SDK, and it's
easier to produce something that looks good than with WPF or Forms. Though I
hate to say it, switching to all Metro for anything desktop related will
probably make me more productive not less.
(edit) If I want to write a command line utility, I'll continue to use
powershell.
------
snorkel
I used be one of those suckers who would fork over $hundreds to Microsoft
every few years to keep up with the latest-greatest VC++ and SDKs. Always
annoyed me how Microsoft would cripple its affordable tools in ways that I
feel actually hurt Windows in the long run. It definitely made me shelve my
own Windows projects and get into web development instead, and there's no
regrets there.
------
drhayes9
What's the larger strategy here: "Lose"?
I don't understand why they would do this. Seems like people will just shrug
and migrate towards the free tools that will help them solve a variety of
problems in more interesting ways (e.g. gcc, python, ruby, JS, etc.). Then
they'll start migrating towards platforms that make it easy to create those
solutions (Linux, OSX).
------
malkia
I've found myself a nice sweet spot - Windows Driver Kit (WDK) - it ships with
Compiler (MSC 15.0) that can target MSVCRT.DLL
It's unusual to use something like the WDK for Desktop Apps, but it works.
The compiler is a bit outdated, and there is need for some trickery to get
stl7 (internal naming) to work, but if something is missing you can install
latest WSDK with it and reuse missing libs/headers from there (platform sdk)
At work I do use VS2010 with .sln/.vcxproj, but for my projects I just stay
away from this - either makefiles, shell scripts, or some other tool, but not
.sln/.vcxproj
Then again, I don't do much UI stuff, and If I do - I do it in code.
Debugging is there (but a bit harder, then again much more powerful) with
WinDBG. There is also OllyDBG.
So WDK + SDK (missing pieces) and I'm set. And since I avoid heavy C++
projects, prefer to stick to C it's not problem for me. Occasionally I have to
fix simple problems, like variable not declared at the top of the block, which
never "C" compilers are okay, but MSC 15.0 is not (the one from WDK 7.1)
------
ognyankulev
Reminds me of OS/2: a great OS with expensive development tools, and some of
us remember how it ended... except that Windows 8 is not so great in
comparison with contemporaries.
I hope Ubuntu exploits this opportunity.
~~~
marshray
I remember reading a Jerry Porunelle column where he described the difference
between talking to IBM and Microsoft at COMDEX that year (1991?). IBM was
charging something like $400 for its driver development kit at the time. He
said "if I go over to the Microsoft booth and tell them I want to write device
drivers for Windows, they'll stuff diskettes in my bag".
But I'm sure IBM was thinking "if you're making hardware devices why couldn't
you afford $400 for a OS/2 driver developer license?" Like Microsoft's dim
early understanding of open source software, completely missing the point.
------
jaredsohn
For those just reading the headline and not the article, it is important to
note that Visual Studio 2010 Express will continue to be available for free.
(But it won't take advantage of changes to the compiler or the environment.)
~~~
marshray
Only a fool would base their development environment on the hope that an
outdated compiler version will still be downloadable from Microsoft's website
into the future.
That thing is crippleware anyway, it can't even produce native 64-bit
executables. Raise your hand if you're still on a 32-bit operating system.
~~~
brudgers
Visual Studio 2008 Express Edition is still available from Microsoft here:
[http://www.microsoft.com/visualstudio/en-
us/products/2008-ed...](http://www.microsoft.com/visualstudio/en-
us/products/2008-editions/express)
The reason Visual Studio 2005 Express Edition is no longer available for
download may be found here:
[http://stackoverflow.com/questions/780741/where-is-visual-
st...](http://stackoverflow.com/questions/780741/where-is-visual-
studio-2005-express)
------
gecko
I agree with Ars that the VisualStudio changes are bad, but is there any
confirmation that the SDK change isn't temporary/won't have an official
solution by the time of shipping? Microsoft has distributed the C++ compiler
for _years_ ; it'd be very odd for them to do an about-face now. This reminds
me off the uproar when Xcode 4 was suddenly a $5 purchase...except that it
wasn't for users on the newer OS, when it actually shipped.
~~~
randomfool
If so this _really_ sucks for build machines- don't want to have to get a VS
license just for that.
------
alexbell
Hopefully university CS courses will stop utilizing Visual Studio now.
~~~
thomaslangston
I'd rate that as highly unlikely. Microsoft's DreamSpark initiative makes this
software free for many schools.
<https://www.dreamspark.com/>
~~~
AlexFromBelgium
I get everything for free.. Server software, IDE, ... and I feel dirtier, and
dirtier every time!
------
ginko
Or they can just use MinGW again just like when there was no free version of
VS.
~~~
law
I used to be devoted VS2010 user, but when C++11 came out, I realized that
Microsoft had no intention of incorporating all of the changes into its
products in the near future. Accordingly, I moved to MinGW with gcc 4.7 and
use Code::Blocks as my IDE. Although I'm giving up a considerable amount of
usability, the trade off was well worth it.
~~~
jpdoctor
> _Accordingly, I moved to MinGW with gcc 4.7 and use Code::Blocks as my IDE._
I note that eclipse + MinGW works quite well, though I wish the debugger was a
little more configurable. I haven't used Code::Blocks, so I can't compare.
------
gfosco
This is bone-headed, as are the restrictions on WinRT... Makes me more likely
to focus on other platforms.
~~~
cooldeal
Why are restrictions on WinRT boneheaded? Windows on the desktop and Android
on mobile shows us how spyware and viruses are a very big problem without
those restrictions, compared to, say iOS. Not to mention battery life and
security.
~~~
myko
What's with the Android FUD? Care to back up your assertion that Android is
inherently less secure than say, iOS?
~~~
cooldeal
Too easy.
How about this news from an hour ago?
[http://www.informationweek.com/news/security/attacks/2400009...](http://www.informationweek.com/news/security/attacks/240000992)
Or this posted 6 hours ago?
[http://www.cbronline.com/news/uk-regulator-shuts-down-
androi...](http://www.cbronline.com/news/uk-regulator-shuts-down-android-
malware-network-240512)
This was posted yesterday.
[http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2012/05/23/researc...](http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2012/05/23/researchers-
say-they-snuck-malware-app-past-googles-bouncer-android-market-scanner/)
Let me know if you need more references.
Note, I didn't say Android is inherently less secure than iOS. Apps policy is
the difference and the topic of discussion.
What's up with the needless FUD accusations?
~~~
myko
You said:
> Android on mobile shows us how spyware and viruses are a very big problem
> without those restrictions, compared to, say iOS
Which I took as saying Android is inherently less secure, but I agree after
your clarification that isn't what you were actually saying.
That said, this doesn't show Android is more susceptible to viruses than iOS
devices, and iPhones are not immune to botnets either
([http://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2010/03/09/8000-iphone-
andro...](http://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2010/03/09/8000-iphone-android-
users-duped-joining-smartphone-botnet/) \- though this only affected
jailbroken iPhones). Previous jailbreak exploits that worked through Safari
could have been disastrous as well - it's not that iOS is more secure, but I
do agree it seems to be less targeted. As the popularity of iOS seems to be on
the rise I believe this will change.
------
stan_rogers
I hope nobody minds too very much if I inject just a little bit of reality
here: we are just about the only profession/trade/occupation on the planet
that seems to believe that our tools should be free (as in beer). Carpenters,
mechanics, hairdressers, even window-washers all have to pay for their tools
(and the associated supplies and tool maintenance), and most of them don't get
anything like the ROI that a door-to-door ASP.NET site peddler would get
pounding the pavement in downtown Lesser Podunk after buying the ultimate all-
in version of VS. Maybe it's time we dropped the entitlement attitude.
~~~
delian66
>>we are just about the only profession/trade/occupation on the planet that
seems to believe that our tools should be free (as in beer).
That is because software development tools like all other software is just
data, once written and debugged. Data can be copied at zero cost, which can
not be said about physical tools, at least for now.
------
forrestthewoods
This is not a real issue.
Visual Studio 2010 will continue to work just fine. As will 2008 or even 2005.
Anyone with a business license, even a $50 sole proprietorship, can get every
piece of software Microsoft makes for zero dollars via free MSDN subscription
[1]. This includes licenses for Office, XP/Vista/Win7 home/pro/ultimate,
Visual Studio Ultimate, SQL Server, and so on and so forth. The licenses are
free forever and ever.
[1] BizSpark program. It's fantastic. <http://www.microsoft.com/bizspark/>
------
ChuckMcM
Its an interesting trend. The Ars prose was a bit more breathless than I'd
prefer but there is an underlying 'computer as appliance' trend that has been
steadily growing for some time. Some folks talk about the 'Post-PC' era but I
feel like its more like things that didn't use to require a computer are being
aggregated and replaced by something that contains a computer.
TV/Book/Catalog/Phone/Game thingy. The canonical example is an iPad.
That said, there are more folks who could care less about writing code on a PC
doing work or using one, than people who do write code. That fact coupled with
the cost of tool maintenance leads Microsoft to choose the route they are on.
Computers, and dedicated personal computers, will continue until the heat
death of the universe as far as I can tell but the number of folks who need
the 'general purpose programmability' seems to have flattened out.
------
coffeeaddicted
As opensource library developer I think this sucks hard. They should at least
let the command-line tools working so people can test if software still
compiles/runs with their compiler without having to buy a license just for
that (Borland C++ is this way these days). VS 2010 staying free is nice, but
certainly it's missing some new C++11 features and obviously the amount of
missing features will only increase over time.
Also I'm wondering something about Metro... so far I haven't found a wrapper
for OpenGL, but only Direct3D. Yet another attempt at killing a competing
standard?
------
diego_moita
From a business perspective this makes sense.
C++ is a slowly fading language. Most universities/colleges are abandoning it
and those that still cling to it are in an anti-MS mindset. Therefore, not to
much to loose here.
~~~
marshray
FWIW, I've been hearing this since about a year or two after Sun released
Java. I'll consider believing it when I see a major web browser or office
suite written in something else.
~~~
kibwen
Could have sworn that OpenOffice was Java, but turns out it's C++ after all.
In that case, I suppose this is your best hope:
<https://github.com/mozilla/servo>
(Not quite a web browser _yet_ , last I checked its exhaustive feature list
was "drawing rectangles". But getting there, slowly.)
~~~
marshray
Yeah I'm keeping my eye on Rust. I like what I'm seeing so far.
------
chj
Is this saying that no way to develop c++ applications with VS 11 Express? If
so, it is horrible for beginners, and I don't see how MS is going to benefit
from this move.
------
jpdoctor
Every other release from microsoft gets committed to obscurity and ridicule.
(ME, Vista, )
I was wondering how Win8 was going to self-destruct, thanks for letting me
know.
------
terjetyl
You already have tons of other super-lightweight great tools enabling you to
create great client applications using only javascript and html5 already so
server side languages are pretty soon mostly restricted to creating rest
services consumed by the same javascript applications. Also when you can just
use node.js to create the rest services the need for a tool like visual studio
is really fading.
------
leke
Why are people complaining? This is exactly what one would expect with the
MicroSoft OS option. This is their business model -- to make money and then
use that money to deliver a user experience. Long term Windows users should
not be surprised or offended by this.
------
drivingmenuts
If it encourages people to dump Microsoft and develop on other platforms, I'm
all for it.
------
moistgorilla
I am happy about this. Now c++ developers will hopefully look at the other
options (Qt Creator, please try it) and normal users will look at other
operating systems (ubuntu).
------
ajasmin
I hope they at least let us write console apps. How many lines of code is a
Metro "Hello, World"?
~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
Four.
<!doctype html>
<meta charset=utf-8>
<title>Metro app</title>
hello, world<br>
------
nl
Yeah, that's kind of useless if you are a hobby developer releasing a free
product.
------
clarky07
This is an absurd article. Microsoft spends tons and tons of time and money
making this product that is Visual Studio. How dare they want people to pay
for the full version. Express is a demo, nothing more and nothing less. Be
happy they provide it at all.
------
hereonbusiness
It seems that Microsoft is going full Apple.
------
dos1
Why is Microsoft so hell-bent on destroying the desktop OS that made them what
they are today? The Metro stuff is fine for tablets, but it's a TERRIBLE user
experience on a traditional desktop computer.
I don't even understand this "everything must be a super simple little app"
approach that both Apple and (and now because they're a big copy cat)
Microsoft are taking. Is this really what the populace wants? I understand
that constraints often yield the best designs, but this is a little crazy.
And as far as the dev tooling - that was one area that Microsoft was notably
competent. I really can't see how this will benefit them in the long term.
Seriously, what is the upside for them? A few more Metro apps? They'll win the
battle but lose the war.
~~~
ajross
It's a disease. Once everyone realized that touch (and mobile more generally)
interfaces were going to "replace" the desktop for many day-to-day uses, they
all went nuts trying to rearchitect and "evolve" the desktop in that
direction.
Thus Unity, and Gnome 3, and Lion, and Metro. And most of these things don't
even suck, they're just needlessly different.
What irks me and others, I suspect, is that the standard WIMP desktop was a
_mature, well-understood, and very usable_ metaphor. There's nothing wrong
with it.
~~~
superuser2
For you. For me. Not for grandpa. And there are more grandpas than hackers
right now.
Immediate visibility of functionality, dropping the filesystem metaphor,
standardizing and simplifying the installation of software, and enforcing a
consistent UX works better than WIMP for a significant portion of people who
would rather not expend effort on making their tools carry out their will.
(Only, of course, if their wills are relatively simple. But the intuitiveness
vs. power tradeoff is a technology problem, and one there is going to be
market pressure to solve.)
~~~
ajross
This sounds like a statement out of 1985. It's belied by simple facts:
penetration of smartphones and tablets into the "general population" is no
better than it was for web browsing and general desktop computing 10-12 years
ago. It's selling more devices, mostly because they're cheaper but also
because they're inherently personal. Kids that would have shared the family PC
in 1998 now expect their own 4S to carry.
And that's not to say that there aren't usability enhancements in the new
devices that are worthwhile. But don't pretend that smartphones are "opening
computing to a whole new world", becuase they aren't. Like the desktop PC
before them, they are the tools of the middle class.
------
drivebyacct2
Microsoft still gives away the compilers, SDKs, .NET Runtime/SDKs, no?
Is the expectation that an IDE as powerful as Visual Studio be given away for
free? Or just that the Windows Store not charge a fee for utilizing their
distribution infrastructure?
There _was_ a time before Express editions.
edit: I failed to scroll through the rest of the article, feel free to ignore
me. I would delete but I don't like stranding replies. Apologies.
~~~
gecko
If you read the article, you will find that MS is currently declining to ship
compilers as part of the Windows 8 SDK, which is why Ars is so concerned. But
I'd also point out that Visual Studio Express 2010 is indeed free, and far
more flexible than its 2011 replacement. This represents a massive policy
shift.
~~~
hartez
From [http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-
us/windows/hardware/hh852363.as...](http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-
us/windows/hardware/hh852363.aspx) (under the section "Updated or Removed
Features"):
The Windows SDK no longer ships with a complete command-line build environment. The Windows SDK now requires a compiler and build environment to be installed separately.
Below that they also list a dozen tools and a bunch of documentation and
samples that they also no longer include in the SDK. My guess is that they're
just trimming down their SDK downloads. Their SDK has been getting more and
more bloated over the years with utilities and samples and stuff that most
devs don't need.
Completely dropping their command line tools doesn't make sense for anyone who
runs build servers; it doesn't make sense for their Powershell tools; and it
_really_ doesn't make sense when you consider their recent moves in Open
Source. My guess is that the command line tools will be separate downloads
from the basic SDK and you'll still be able to write C# code in Notepad++ if
you like. The basic SDK will be targeting people writing Metro apps (which
they want to encourage by default), but they aren't going to just drop
everything else. This is a company that lives and breathes backward
compatibility, after all.
It's just a case of poor messaging by Microsoft. Remember last year when
everyone thought that all Windows 8 apps were going to be Javascript/HTML 5?
~~~
gecko
That's also my guess, which I indicated elsewhere in the thread. I'm
definitely withholding judgment until we get a wee bit closer to the release
date and have a better idea what Microsoft's actually trying to accomplish
here. The lack of simple compilers in any capacity is bizarre, if taken as a
final statement, since it'd _really_ throw the wrench in pretty much every
Windows build farm ever. I suspect this is simply that, right now, given that
VS.NET 2k11 Ultimate beta is free anyway, they don't yet have the compiler or
doc downloads. I expect them to show up soon.
------
excuse-me
" productivity applications will stick with the desktop "
So by definition tablet and phone apps are unproductive? Actually that's
probably true!
------
ascendant
This really isn't a big deal for me. Mainly because I have no urge to develop
for Windows now, nor will I have the urge to do so then. That makes things so
much easier.
------
voodoochilo
nice, foss wins:)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Dropped wrappers and dirty cups: the tricks bosses play at interviews - adrian_mrd
https://www.theguardian.com/money/shortcuts/2019/jun/05/dropped-wrappers-and-dirty-coffee-cups-the-tricks-bosses-play-at-interviews
======
daly
It is a Navy tradition not to wash your coffee cup.
While I was never in the Navy, my coffee cup can be used to make coffee by
just adding water.
If the manager dropped the candy wrapper, the manager should pick it up.
Managers who play mind games are the kind of people who think negging is a
dating technique. It betokens a superiour attitude. Find work elsewhere.
------
NotPaidToPost
Those mind games are very useful for candidates as well because, after reading
that article, I have no desire at all to work for any of these companies.
Now, the 'thank you' email after an interview on the other hand is etiquette
and a good way to follow up.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Elsevier's Digital Doc Prototype: Is This The Scientific Article of the Future? - ExJournalist
http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/elseviers_prototype_is_this_the_scientific_article.php
======
paulsb
Here is a FriendFeed discussion about it: [http://friendfeed.com/science-
online/cbbe2531/news-releases-...](http://friendfeed.com/science-
online/cbbe2531/news-releases-elsevier-announces-article-of), which boils down
to the answer of 'no'.
This is typical of those with the power in science: they are too slow to
embrace new technologies and to adapt to what researchers need. But, hey, why
do they need to when they have researchers bent over a barrel whilst they rake
in the money.
Scientific publishing is ripe for disruption, which includes getting rid of
pdf.
------
michael_nielsen
More like the scientific article as it should have been by the mid-90s. Still,
it's good to see some experimentation.
------
yannis
Elsevier's attempts are laudable to make Scientific papers a bit more readable
on the web. Most people will just download a pdf and print to read and keep!
However, I was surprised to find out that their use of Javascript can only be
described as 'archaic'! (Just do a page view of the images tab)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
How to Hire Software Engineers During a Remote Work Crisis - loumal
https://builtin.com/remote-work-software-engineering-perspectives/how-hire-software-engineers-during-remote-work-crisis
======
engineertorque
some great thoughts here on how to keep interviews consistent, etc.
~~~
loumal
agree. some interesting points about being VERY clear about expectations on
technical qs.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Shall we fork Debian? - walterbell
http://debianfork.org
======
almost
> only few of us have the time and patience to interact with Debian on a
> voluntary basis.
This might present a problem if they actually do try and fork it. I imagine it
would take more time a patience to run a competing fork than to interact with
current Debian.
Not that a fork is necessarily the wrong thing to do if your ideas of what
Debian should be differ enough from where it's going. It's just that it sounds
like it would be a fair amount of work :)
------
dz0ny
Duplicate
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8477659](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8477659)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: Is there any one book or resource on search engine development & theory? - rneufeld
I'm working on a search engine for a web application I am developing and realized I really didn't know that much about making search engines. I've taken a bit of AI & Expert Systems in school but never really run into any books specifically on developing search engines. Do any such books exist? If so, recommendations?
======
rmobin
Gred Linden likes Introduction to Information Retrieval: [http://www-
csli.stanford.edu/~hinrich/information-retrieval-...](http://www-
csli.stanford.edu/~hinrich/information-retrieval-book.html) (free online).
------
xinsight
This article gives a wonderful overview of the challenges:
"Why Writing Your Own Search Engine Is Hard"
<http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=988407>
(site is down currently.) google cache:
[http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:13tlOSQwtjAJ:queue.acm.o...](http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:13tlOSQwtjAJ:queue.acm.org/detail.cfm%3Fid%3D988407+writing+a+search+engine+is+hard&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&client=safari)
------
michael_dorfman
There are some ACM/IEEE journals that have relevant papers, but you have to
ask yourself: is reinventing the wheel what you really want to be doing? Given
that there are lots of available COTS solutions, shouldn't you be focusing on
things that are unique to your app?
(Needless to say, if the search engine needs _are_ unique to your app, and a
COTS solution isn't viable, you might want to bring in someone with relevant
expertise.)
~~~
gtani
spot on. OP: Are you asking how basic tf-idf works, or is there something you
can't get lucene / SOLR / sphinx / tsearch to do easily?
nevertheless, here are some good background materials (search amazon on "data
mining"
<http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1584504609>
[http://www.amazon.com/Data-Mining-Practical-Techniques-
Manag...](http://www.amazon.com/Data-Mining-Practical-Techniques-
Management/dp/0120884070/ref=pd_sim_b_8)
Also the Collective intelligence by Satnam alag is quite good (a lot of java
code to wade through tho
~~~
rneufeld
To be honest I hadn't even heard of tf-idf before you mentioned it. It is
definitely not the case I am stepping beyond the bounds of something like
sphinx.
I basically want to lay a bit of foundation before I start mucking around with
something I have no idea about.
I have a couple e-books on Data Mining but I didn't think it was applicable.
Are Data Mining and Search two things closely intertwined?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Advocates of splitting California into six states gathering signatures - ilamont
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-petition-drive-underway-to-split-california-into-six-states-20140621-story.html
======
SAI_Peregrinus
Bah. We only need three more states to have 53. One nation, indivisible...
~~~
dllthomas
So then we need to shoot for 59.
------
officialjunk
is there a way to gerrymander the state to give advantage to one political
party over another?
~~~
dllthomas
Of course.
------
eruditely
What's the point? I think California is united as a signature identity at this
point.
I'd kind of rather live and die with what we have now.
~~~
dllthomas
When CA entered the union, it held well less than one percent of the US
population. Since then, the US population has gone up about fourteenfold. CA
population has gone up _four-hundred-and_ -fourteenfold. When our borders were
drawn, we had industry and population like Wyoming, and it's not crazy that we
had borders to match. Now, we have industry and population more like the
eastern seaboard, and we should quite arguably have borders more like the
eastern seaboard.
As it stands, our voices are systematically underrepresented at the national
level and our state government is too big to be responsive.
I have some mixed feelings about this particular proposal, but I am more than
sympathetic to the notion that we should carve up this state.
And the notion that residents of Humboldt and residents of San Diego have more
of a shared identity than residents of New Haven and New Bedford seems... a
stretch.
As an aside, Texas and Florida would also be good candidates to split, if they
wanted to.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Great Trail FAQ - brudgers
https://thegreattrail.ca/about-us/faq/
======
musgravepeter
There is some great info at
[http://www.ridethetrail.ca/](http://www.ridethetrail.ca/). Many parts of the
trail are on roads or have ATV access - which is not ideal for those who
prefer human powered locomotion.
A cross-Canada trail is an awesome goal - but the reality is we have a very
long way to go.
~~~
sandworm101
A girl I knew at university was hired one summer to map out an indigenous
trail by examining archaeological records and talking to community elders. She
found it: down the center of what is today a divided highway. The larger
resurrection project was abandoned because most all of the ancient trails were
on/under/beside roadways. The flattest and easiest path between two points is
the first to be paved.
------
AlphaWeaver
Better info about what it is is here: [https://thegreattrail.ca/stories/the-
great-trail-a-national-...](https://thegreattrail.ca/stories/the-great-trail-
a-national-icon/)
------
gragas
Too bad it leaves out Nord-du-Quebec. I've always been fascinated with remote
and uninhabited regions. Without Northern Quebec there's still a good bit of
that stuff covered by the trail.
Maybe it's a good thing the area is left untouched.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: About.me for business? - taphangum
Wondering if this exists? I've been googling around and haven't found anything remotely close to what i need.<p>The only solutions that i seem to be finding are the run of the mill template type sites.<p>There doesn't seem to be a simple, elegant landing page service out there for businesses. (Maybe an idea for a startup?)<p>Anyone able to point me in the right direction? Would appreciate any help.
======
QuasiPreneur
Wouldn't that be the first results page from google search?
I thought idealistic like you and although sounds great. Once you have in
excess of 1,000 businesses all vying for exposure..then how do you provide
that exposure time/place?
The only thought that would be idealistic would be if you're searching for
specific niche/vertical product or services. But again once you've exceeded a
comfort zone of the viewer. How do you again find time/space? AND be
democratic about it? Meaning I personally like to give little guys time/space
but money always wins... bottomline isn't it?
PS> everyone.. EVERYONE on about.me has an agenda. No one exposes themselves
for the sake of exposure without an ulterior motive.
------
mmattax
We (Formstack) launched <http://shoutmy.biz> last month. It's goal is to
provide a great looking landing page for small businesses who otherwise don't
have a web presence. I'd love to hear feedback from the HN crowd!
~~~
taphangum
ShoutMyBiz is EXACTLY what i need. Thanks alot for posting here. Helped alot.
~~~
mmattax
Great! Glad to hear it. We'd love some feedback if you have any.
~~~
taphangum
Yes, having cname domain mapping would be awesome.
------
dwynings
<http://central.ly/page/home>
<http://www.justabout.co/>
~~~
taphangum
Great suggestions! Central.Ly also looks awesome!
------
stbullard
<http://onepagerapp.com/>
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Computing shortest distances incrementally with Spark - wak
http://insightdataengineering.com/blog/incr-short-dist-graphx/
======
bitL
Yikes, I had to stop when the author mentioned MapReduce for computing
shortest distance. That's one of the problems for which MapReduce approach is
extraordinarily bad.
~~~
ignoramous
A better approach at the scale being discussed in the article would be to...?
~~~
karussell
What does 'scale' mean :) ? Solving graph problems are best done in-memory
with a big machine (RAM!), otherwise you are an order of magnitude slower (at
least) if you try to distribute. But if you really have no choice I would have
a look if some of the graph databases has a good distributed model. My gut
feeling tells me that even a bad approach there is faster than spark ...
~~~
ignoramous
I guess Titan DB would fit the bill:
[http://thinkaurelius.github.io/titan/](http://thinkaurelius.github.io/titan/)
Facebook has blogged about scaling Apache Giraph to insane number of
Vertices/Edges.
------
ddrum001
I don't think you have a choice, you'll have to use MapReduce if the data is
too big to fit into memory. I believe that's what Facebook and Google do:
[https://www.facebook.com/notes/facebook-
engineering/scaling-...](https://www.facebook.com/notes/facebook-
engineering/scaling-apache-giraph-to-a-trillion-edges/10151617006153920)
[http://googleresearch.blogspot.com/2009/06/large-scale-
graph...](http://googleresearch.blogspot.com/2009/06/large-scale-graph-
computing-at-google.html)
~~~
bitL
Your 2nd link describes Pregel, Google's distributed graph database
specifically built for these kinds of tasks.
They were using Map Reduce prior to that, but it was a cascading mess.
------
karussell
If you have a hammer everything looks like a ...
~~~
jklein11
unicorn?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Stop biodiversity loss or we could face our own extinction, warns UN - nwrk
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/nov/03/stop-biodiversity-loss-or-we-could-face-our-own-extinction-warns-un
======
sverige
A great place to start would be to seriously limit or eliminate pesticides
like Roundup. Don't believe the alarmists in Big Ag who will say the world
will starve. We overproduce food now, and organic farming techniques, if
widely adopted, wouldn't make it impossible to continue to produce enough. The
loss of diversity in insects and "weeds" has had a huge impact up the chain.
~~~
bamboozled
I once saw a great quote which was, "maybe food is too cheap". This is
probably true, we could probably eat better quality, organic food grown in a
more diverse way, it would just cost more. On the flip side, it would be more
valued so we'd have less waste.
I can't imagine the amount of "non-valued" food, fruit vegetables etc which
end up in the bin.
~~~
mchannon
Everybody here is ignoring yield per acre. RoundUp, for all its faults, drives
the yield number up. More people (and particularly more cattle) are fed per
acre when you use pesticides.
If you banned the pesticides, it would do a lot of good, but now consider how
many more acres would need to be farmed in order to keep the overall yields
the same. How many acres would be cleared that would not otherwise be cleared?
I agree that glyphosate (RoundUp now makes up less than half the market, which
is largely Chinese-made and Chinese-consumed now) should probably be far more
heavily regulated, but be aware that humans are not going to happily grow less
food on the same land when yields drop.
Taste the rainforest.
~~~
xg15
> _More people (and particularly more cattle) are fed per acre when you use
> pesticides._
This feels like saying we absolutely _need_ multiple GB of RAM to display a
website because how else would Angular work otherwise?
If the increased yield per acre is used primarily to support todays
industrial-scale meat production, maybe we should address the latter first.
The way meat production works today seems to have almost exclusively
downsides: It's a moral bankruptcy considering current state of research in
animal consciousness, it's a health hazard for consumers, it's an inefficient
way to consume proteins _and_ as you note, it monopolizes vast parts of crop
production.
~~~
candiodari
We only have a few percent more food production than humanity needs, if I
remember correctly. Roundup and other pesticides combined with fertilizer
increased yields ... it doubles and triples them, and it prevents famines
resulting from sudden insect plagues, which were common (as in every 30 years
on average) for most of human history.
If these numbers are even close to accurate, eliminating roundup and modern
farming would kill BILLIONS of humans.
I would love to get more accurate numbers, but what do you intend to do about
the little "humans need food" issue in general ?
~~~
heurist
As i understand it, there are new intensive organic farming techniques that
are practically unknown to big ag and which produce similar yields with higher
quality (by not destroying soil and ecosystems every year). I'd counter that
the final death toll of Roundup and similar chemicals could be much higher any
potential famine caused by abrupt cessation of pesticide treatments.
Destruction of ecosystems is an externality which has never been accounted
for, and sooner or later someone will pay that bill.
------
jelliclesfarm
Getting rid of chemical warfare on soil and in farms will become much easier
of farming is automated. Automation in farms works longer than any human
labourer. And getting rid of weeds in farms and planting hedgerows and letting
at least 30-50 percent of land go back to nature with reforestation and
installing grasslands will help with habitat restoration. We have urban indoor
farms that can deal with the shortage. A lot can be grown indoors..not all our
food tho. Just take inside whatever is possible to be grown indoors! Shorten
supply chains. Population needs to be reduced not by punitive methods but by
incentivizing smaller families. In the 70s, our population was around 3.5
billion ..now it’s close to 7.5 billion. This is a problem. We accommodated
this explosion by getting rid of animals, birds, insects and turning forests
into farmlands. Some of this conversion needs to be reversed.
------
ah765
I agree with the big idea of conservation of biodiversity, but it really
bothers me when these articles are using what seems like lies and fear tactics
to convince me. 2 years? Why is it so urgent? The article doesn't explain. And
"By 2050, Africa is expected to lose 50% of its birds and mammals," sounded
really implausible to me. I had to do further research to determine that they
are probably actually referring to "50% of species" rather than "50% of
population", which is a very big difference that seems the opposite of what is
implied. In this case, "face our own extinction" seems like a huge
overexaggeration. This kind of deception and disregard for actual facts makes
me much less sympathetic to the cause.
~~~
omosubi
Losing 50% of species _is_ the loss of biodiversity by definition. Just about
every species plays a vital role in maintaining a habitat and losing 1 or
several has consequences that are hard to predict and could mean a drastic
reduction in the ability to grow food and have clean water.
What incentives do scientists have to lie about this? Why is everyone so
skeptical about warnings that scientists around the world agree on and have
been saying for 20 or 30 years? It's maddening
~~~
ah765
Losing 50% of species sounds bad, but much less bad than losing 50% of all
mammal populations. Are we just talking about losing ten thousand obscure
rodent species? I actually have no real idea what this value means, which
makes me inclined to ignore it. A scientific source would be great, but the
article doesn't provide any.
If we're talking about "human extinction" level threats, it would probably be
from massive famines, and "half of the animals are now dead" seems much more
likely to cause that than "half of animal species are extinct". What is the
actual percentage estimate that we would go extinct from this, and when? It
matters when comparing it to nuclear war or AI.
The incentive for scientists to lie seems obvious to me. They want people to
support and fund their efforts (possibly for noble reasons, possibly because
they just want more money). They think that simple facts aren't good enough,
so they use fear tactics like "we could face our own extinction" hoping that
will convince us instead.
Also, the authors of these articles and the people interviewed are not
necessarily the scientists either. Given that sources aren't provided, I have
no idea what the scientists are actually saying.
~~~
jeremyjh
Most animal species are insects, so probably that is the majority of animal
species that will die out. Insects and grubs, worms etc though can be very
important to the local ecology. Loss of some could damage human food
production that relies on them in sometimes very indirect ways.
~~~
DennisP
There have been a several recent studies showing massive loss of insect
populations:
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/science/2018/10/15/hyperalarm...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/science/2018/10/15/hyperalarming-
study-shows-massive-insect-loss/?utm_term=.96d6124d639c)
But insects are also a foundation of natural food webs; we can't lose lots of
insects without losing lots of other animals too. And as a couple of us have
posted already, a recent study showed that we've reduced the populations of
mammals, birds, fish and reptiles by 60% since 1970:
[https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/oct/30/humanity...](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/oct/30/humanity-
wiped-out-animals-since-1970-major-report-finds)
------
carapace
Permaculture (Applied Ecology) - we can provide food _and CARBON-NEUTRAL fuel_
for ourselves without wrecking Nature.
A "Permie" farm is more productive than any other mode of food production. By
setting up ecosystems that consist of a preponderance of human-usable crop
species you can grow _multiple times_ the amount of food-per-acre of
conventional agriculture (even with GMOs and pesticides, et. al.) After the
initial set-up very little labor is required.
Permie farms _foster_ biodiversity.
"Permaculture Behind `Greening the Desert` with Geoff Lawton"
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Q41b05ku9U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Q41b05ku9U)
Salt desert to figs in two years.
Toby Hemenway - "How Permaculture Can Save Humanity and the Earth, but Not
Civilization"
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nLKHYHmPbo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nLKHYHmPbo)
"Alcohol Can Be a Gas!" [http://permaculture.com/](http://permaculture.com/)
Small-scale alcohol fuel production integrated with a Permaculture farm. You
can grow your own energy. The economics are totally different from large-scale
industrial ethanol production. You can start this in your backyard and be
driving your converted car from your own home-grown carbon-neutral solar
energy within a few months. Faster if you scavenge feedstock. Farmer Dave used
to have an arrangement with a donut shop to ferment their old leftover/scrap
dough.
------
Illniyar
Why would reducing biodiversity cause humans to go extinct? It isn't made
clear in the article.
Wouldn't it just cause certain creatures to be more dominant?
~~~
dyeje
The environment is a complex web of interdependent relationships between
species and ecological processes. You remove enough relationships and it'll
just collapse.
~~~
Illniyar
That's very vague. Collapse how? According to other comments we have already
remove 60% of species, why wasn't that enough to cause a collapse. Other
species take up the slack left by those removed.
~~~
intended
Death of insects means no honey and many dead birds.
No pollination means many fallow meadows and dead plants.
This means either weeds spreading or top soil depletion.
This also means many crops we depend on will not survive because various
helper species aren’t available.
Earthworms dying mean no areation of soil, or the impact of other insects to
improve the eco system.
So no those other species aren’t taking up the slack as you put it. Wasps
aren’t interchangeable with moths for example.
But I too want to understand better how far this collapse impacts human
beings.
~~~
nearbuy
This doesn't really explain human extinction. Our food supply doesn't come
from a natural ecosystem.
\- Commercial bee populations aren't declining. (There has been an increase in
Colony Collapse Disorder, but lost colonies are replaced and total bee
population hasn't declined.)
\- The vast majority of the world's food supply does not depend on pollination
from insects. To quote from
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_crop_plants_pollinated...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_crop_plants_pollinated_by_bees):
> The most essential staple food crops on the planet, like corn, wheat, rice,
> soybeans and sorghum, need no insect help at all; they are wind-pollinated
> or self-pollinating. Other staple food crops, like bananas and plantains,
> are sterile and propagated from cuttings, requiring no pollination of any
> form, ever.
\- None of the crops that require pollination from insects are essential to
human survival. It's hard to see how their loss could lead to our extinction.
\- Crops can be pollinated by hand or machine.
\- Crops can be propagated without seeds.
\- Crops can be grown in all kinds of unbelievable conditions. Crops can be
grown without soil. They can be grown in space stations, completely isolated
from Earth's ecosystems.
\- Extinction is a very strong claim. To support it, it wouldn't be enough,
for example, to show that 90% of the population would die off, leaving 750
million people. They need to propose a mechanism by which all humans would
die.
~~~
esarbe
If you think that the human food supply will not be affected by a planet-wide
ecosystem collapse, you might want to think again.
Fertile soil is not just dirt. Talk to a soil expert and you'll find out very
quickly how difficult it is to keep soil healthy, especially if you punish it
every day with pesticides and herbicides. See you long you can maintain
production if you don't have a support system of insects, arachnids, worms,
fungi and so on. You'll end up with just dirt. Nothing grows in just dirt. You
can try to keep up production by downing it in fertilizer, but in the end
you'll just prolong the inevitable; loss of crop and collaps of production.
See how many humans you can feed by growing crops in space stations. See how
long you can maintain a closed ecosystem in space.
To your last point; if you lose more than 30% to 30% of the productive
workforce, you can kiss human civilization goodbye; our manufacturing is
highly de-centralized, but heavily interdependent and without safety buffer..
Our infrastructure is wide-spread and needs tons of maintenance. Lose enough
people and it all comes crashing down, leaving the survivors with broken
machinery for which they don't have energy, don't have the knowledge to
operate let alone repair if (not when) they stop working. They will also have
to deal with all the poison and radioactive fallout from all the fission
reactors that experience core-meltdown because nobody's around anymore to
power them down over the period of ten years.
Don't kid yourself; saving what's left of this earth's ecosystem is the only
shot we have. There's not techo-utopia down the road to carry us to eternity
and the heat-death of the universe. Its you and me and the rest of us puny
humans that will have to do the saving.
------
jelliclesfarm
[https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-07183-6](https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-07183-6)
: this explains about the loss of terrestrial biomass. [..]Numerous studies
are revealing that Earth’s remaining wilderness areas are increasingly
important buffers against the effects of climate change and other human
impacts. But, so far, the contribution of intact ecosystems has not been an
explicit target in any international policy framework, such as the United
Nations’ Strategic Plan for Biodiversity or the Paris climate agreement.
This must change if we are to prevent Earth’s intact ecosystems from
disappearing completely.[..]
------
anon1203
We can't even stop killing each other because of greed and other stupid
reasons, we can't even stop global warming, who's going to stop biodiversity
loss and how? It's in the nature of mankind to create but also destroy. Every
era of civilization was build on the ashes of the former, and the next will
not be different, a lot of people will have to die of violent death for
humanity to evolve and come to its senses. we are at the beginning of a
climate refugee crisis of proportions never seen before,coming from Southern
countries, do people really think it will go smoothly?
~~~
dwaltrip
We kill each other less than we did in the past. Humanity is not a completely
static thing.
There are many struggles ahead of us. But not all hope is lost. I
wholeheartedly reject any fatalistic notion. There is always something that
can be done to improve the situation.
------
arminiusreturns
Once again the principles of centralization vs decentralization play out in
front of us. Decentralization is a strength, centralization is a weakness, in
almost everything, from the internet to crops...
------
quotemstr
Humanity will never go extinct as long as the Earth supports photosynthesis
generally. If the ecosystem collapses, we might suffer for a little while, but
our technology can overcome any environmental problem. Environmental damage,
no matter how severe, is not an _existential_ threat, and hyping it up as so
does nobody any favors.
That said, environmental damage is expensive, and we should mitigate it. But
we should do so with an accurate, not inflated, knowledge of the consequences.
~~~
esarbe
Holy cow, Batman, that's some fatal case of hubris if I've ever seen one.
Environmental damage /is/ an /existential/ threat. We're part of an ecosystem,
we're not independent of it. We have no way to produce food or oxygen without
an ecosystem. In what artificial Biosphere do you live in?
The sheer audacity leaves me (almost) speechless.
~~~
quotemstr
Agriculture _is_ producing food without the ecosystem.
~~~
esarbe
Nope, it isn't. You're still dependent on the fertile soil, on nematodes and
fungi, on insects and arthropods. You fool yourself when you think that all
these square kilometers of dry and dead dust will yield anything at all when
there's no ecosystem around to renew the dehydrated husk of soil we leave when
we're done.
Google for 'arable soil loss' and read a bit about it, please.
------
starfish99
I like to think each living organism as a gigantic living git repository of
successful experiments by evolution. No wonder a huge number of human
inventions come out of either isolating naturally occurring compounds or
mimicking some natural occurring behavior of some organism: plant/animal.
Each time we lose an organism, we lose an entire repo of commits made over
billions of years.
------
jelliclesfarm
There is a lot of skepticism and charges of exaggeration about this threat to
the planet. Is it ok to make a book recommendation here?
[https://www.amazon.com/Sixth-Extinction-Unnatural-
History/dp...](https://www.amazon.com/Sixth-Extinction-Unnatural-
History/dp/0805092994) : Sixth Extinction by Elizabeth Kolbert. And it’s not a
new book either. Many people have been warning about this and 2020 is a
pivotal year for answers about our survival. Media..as usual..is getting
hysterical about it too late and all in unison. But that doesn’t negate the
overwhelming evidence that the threats are real.
------
musha68k
This has happened many times before in more localized settings. The big
difference to our situation is that the pertaining cultures were most likely
plain ignorant about the dynamics that lead to their demise.
We are lucky that we do have all the knowledge but instead of taking action we
constantly bathe ourselves in dystopian fantasies and social media whining
(Q.E.D.) without any _vision_ other than what seems like a global death-wish.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_Chimpanzee#Environme...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_Chimpanzee#Environmental_impact_and_extinction_\(part_five\))
------
village-idiot
Honestly, I think it’s too late.
It’s not too late technically, we could make changes now that would save us.
But it’s far too late politically because people are stubbornly doubling down
on the behaviors that are killing us.
~~~
titzer
There was never any time. We're programmed like bacteria to expand and fill
the available resources until either our consumption or our waste products
kill us off. The only question was the speed and ugliness of it all. After
agriculture, without population control, this whole shit became inevitable.
Science? Education? Democracy? Capitalism? All just ingredients into making
this global society capable of mass digestion. Chewing up the Earth and
shitting it out.
[http://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/acref/9780199539...](http://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/acref/9780199539536.001.0001/acref-9780199539536-e-1221)
------
botverse
What about overpopulation as a factor? The elephant in the room. Every time
someone suggest that we are too many, people tend to agree, but when what is
suggested is that we should think about how to be less people, everybody halts
in horror
------
raprp
I some countries is still a challenge to forbid use of plastic bags on
supermarkets and plastic straws. We just keep throwing this disposable stuff
out like crazy.
------
esarbe
It's incredible how many participants in this topic don't seem to grasp the
delicacy of earth's ecosystem and see it as something that is easily replaced
or that humans can exist without.
Let's not kid around; if the ecosystem of goes the way of the way of the dodo,
humans will go along for the ride.
You might (or not) have noticed that humans don't exist outside of the
ecological system that our plant harbors. We're part of this ecological
network, we're fully, totally, non-negotiable dependent on it. Techno-utopian
dreams (nightmares, more like it) of being independent of the 'natural' world
are not going to save mankind; we're part of 'nature', we exist within nature,
there's no existence for humans outside nature. We need an ecosystem that
provides us with calories and oxygen. The only ecosystem in existence that is
capable of providing that is the very ecosystem we're working tirelessly to
dismantle and destroy. So yes; we might die out because of lack of resources.
We very probably will. There's only so much damage that an ecosystem can take.
And there are tons of signs that signal that our earthly ecosystem is reaching
it's breaking point; - we've lost about a third of the arable land in the last
forty years. - we've lost about 30% of bio diversity in the last twenty years.
- we've lost almost 75% of insect biomass in the last thirty years.
The loss of insects is especially alarming; insects play a major role in all
food webs on earth. The disappearance of 75% of insects (biomass, not species)
has a catastrophic impact of everything further up the food chain. Yes,
including humans.
We're currently working non-stop to destroy our ecosystem's capacity to carry
animals in the upper food chain. Guess who's on top of that food chain. Yes,
us humans.
Don't kid yourself; we're currently rushing full-speed ahead towards a full-
scale ecosystem collapse. And don't fool yourself on our ability to create and
maintain a man-made closed ecosystem as a replacement; we're not able to do
that and we probably won't for many, many, many decades to come.
The only ecosystem we have to save our collective asses is the one we're
currently punishing every day with our overproduction, overconsumption, with
our fertilizers, insecticides, pesticides and waste.
It's so past high times that we - humans, as a collective - have a hard talk
how much longer we want to exist as a 'civilized' species, with global trade,
no struggle for survival, boundless capitalism.
Because if we keep going, we've got a dozen or so decades left. It's back to
hunter gathering for the rest of mankind's existence after that.
If we leave enough prey species alive, that is. Otherwise that will be the end
of mankind's short stint.
------
newnewpdro
Collapse != extinction
~~~
esarbe
It is, for humans. We've got a hard dependency on civilization because we've
forgotten how to live without it and don't have any natural habitats we could
live in (as hunter/gatherers) even if we remembered how.
~~~
newnewpdro
B.S.
~~~
esarbe
Even tough you've very eloquently made you point, would you care to elaborate?
What of my argument is -- to quote you -- 'B.S.'?
------
Rubinsalamander
While it would be sad to see so many species dying, i dont think it will
affect the survival of humans.
If really needed bacterias and plants would be enough for humans to survive.
Wouldnt be pleasant though, so we should try our best that it doesnt happen.
I just dont see the apocalyptic prophecies coming true.
------
intended
So precisely who is going to pay for all this, and the reduction in growth
it’s going to entail?
Markets are levered if not overlevered, and maintenance of biodiversity is
going to have both spending costs for the govt and resource extraction
reductions (arguable), followed by compliance costs for firms.
Sure we save ourselves, but face it, our economic system is a rational system
which at the end must put a finite price on a human life. Whether by market
price discovery or by fiat, we are going to say, “there’s only this much we
can spend”.
I’m really curious because I pretty much see a dead rock and humans under
domes, in the far future.
Is there some other plausible outcome?
———-
Edit: people are correctly targeting the rational part of markets, but here’s
the counter.
It’s very rational for business firms to lobby against externalities being
priced in. It’s rational for ranchers to cut forests for economic gains. And
it’s rational for the many many people who are being propelled up out of
poverty to want better food, clothing and power.
That guy burning crops in India says “shit, sorry for the bad smoke Delhi. But
it costs too much to do anything else. Sucks to be you.”
That’s why my point on our economy being levered. It’s not in anyone’s
rational interest to halt growth. Every % of global gdp growth is millions of
people out of poverty.
Which is why the question. Are people really incentivized to bell the cat - to
actually price in externalities ?
~~~
jnurmine
A system of economy based on continuous growth and limited resources is simply
not viable. That is nothing new, the Club of Rome presented their findings
already in 1970s.
Their conclusion was a rapid and uncontrollable decline in population and
industrial capacity, and the signs of that would be apparent by 2072.
Given that the "business as usual" scenario has persisted, we are on track to
that sudden crash "overshoot" scenario. In addition, now there is the looming
climate catastrophy as well. Countries and regions have to become more
resilient to all kinds of impacts from climate change, as it does not look
like we can avoid or prevent it.
In addition, another economic system than one expecting continuous growth is
required.
Therefore the question of "who pays for the reduction in growth" is a rather
non-starter, as the reduction in growth is inevitable.
Edit: crash not at 2072, signs visible at 2072.
~~~
boombust
I think his point was that individual actors do not want to hinder their
prosperity at the cost of the planet. The looming threat of extinction is not
something a business or a 3rd world farmer takes into account when making
choices. Out of sight out of mind, unfortunately.
------
9712263
Terraforming Mars, or maybe just create a habitable satellite is easier than
saving the earth. Current economical model fosters growing business, and only
government regulation to deal with externality. Growing is intuitive to human
activity, but restricting human growth is counter-intuitive.
I forget the link, but a lecture video using bacteria growth as a metaphor of
human growth creeps me out. Supposed bacteria in a jar growth 2 times for 1
minutes, and the jar will be full in 1 hour. When will the jar be half full?
Answer is at 59 minutes. At the time of 58 minutes, only 25% space is used.
How many bacteria thinks the jar or the world will be full after 2 minutes?
The situation is similar to human, and we still cannot find a way to protect
the environment and have economic growth at the same time. Maybe the end of
human history is next 2 years but we still think its pretty okay and didn't
notice anything unusual. Then maybe finding a new jar is the second best way
to deal with it.
~~~
justaaron
Holy guacamole. "easier to terraform mars or create a habitable satellite than
saving earth"
this is the most ignorant thing I've ever seen written on the internet. Get
back to me once you have 1/10000000th the bio-diversity of earth on your
habitable satellite.
1) change our paradigms, economic system, and other social factors. I can
assure you that this is far more maleable than Martian soil composition...
our social structures evolved in the context of low population densities and
plentiful resources.
our economic system is what needs to give, it doesn't even function for
humans, let alone the planet and the rest of life we share it with...
need I remind you that 1) we are only ONE species, and haven't the RIGHT to
destroy our shared home, nor the other species. Some of us humans are upset
about this, and we WILL take you other humans on over this issue!
2) our planet is STILL the only known place with LIFE in the entire universe.
This is likely to change, at some point, but not if you get us all killed
first.
3) our social systems are flexible, arbitrary, dare I say "PRETEND"... change
em.
~~~
gepi79
Indeed, people are dangerously ignorant regarding Earth and Mars.
If we can not rescue Earth, a biological paradise, we have no hope to make it
on Mars, a biological hell.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
What's Hiding Inside Egypt's Great Pyramid? Tiny Robots May Find Out - DrScump
https://www.livescience.com/61435-great-pyramid-mysterious-voids.html
======
ggm
After the robot and the inflatable blimp die, future archeologists will be
able to show that the Ancient Egyptians invented WiFi and discovered Helium,
but not entirely able to explain how Horus used them to convey kings to the
afterlife.
Is the soul carried in the blimp, or dragged by the robot?
------
qubex
I’m hoping archaeologists will finally find something that has undoubtedly
been inside the Great Pyramid since it was built that they can carbon-date.
There’s a surprisingly large amount of fairly circular thinking involved in
dating some of the more impressive monuments in at the Giza Plateau, and
though for sure the conspiracy theory/aliens built ‘em theories are bunk, I am
really looking forward to breaking out of the loops with objective external
validation.
~~~
oh_sigh
Agreed upon chronologies only differ by ~300 years over a period of ~5000
years - is carbon dating precise enough to even narrow that down for us?
~~~
DrScump
Carbon dating can only be used on carbon-based life and its residues, not on
the building materials.
~~~
sandworm101
lots of building materials contain bits of organic material. Glues, dyes,
wood, perhaps bits of people. A big enough chunk of wood can also sometimes be
linked to a specific year via tree rings. Such a combination of carbon and
non-carbon dating techniques is about as reliable as we can every hope.
------
MBCook
The most recent episode of Nova, where they watched the process to find these
voids, was very interesting.
[http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/next/ancient/cosmic-ray-
muons-r...](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/next/ancient/cosmic-ray-muons-reveal-
hidden-void-in-the-great-pyramid/)
~~~
JohnJamesRambo
I can't wait to watch this, thanks for sharing!
------
blackrock
I always wondered if we could create some type of neutrino scanning device.
Neutrinos passes through most matter like nothing. You need a super large
underground water tank to detect it.
One side of the pyramid would have the emitter. The other side, would have the
receptor. And you bombard the pyramid with trillions and trillions of
neutrinos, and collect the statistics. Then from this, it might help you
formulate an image, and allow you to see what is inside the pyramid.
The next question is: How do you create a neutrino?
According to this video, it seems you can make a neutrino beam from a particle
accelerator.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_xWDWKq1CM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_xWDWKq1CM)
Again, IANAPS, I am not a particle scientist.
~~~
ebosi
A study using essentially your idea was published in Nature recently:
[https://www.nature.com/news/cosmic-ray-particles-reveal-
secr...](https://www.nature.com/news/cosmic-ray-particles-reveal-secret-
chamber-in-egypt-s-great-pyramid-1.22939)
They found a previously unknown 30-meter void inside the Great Pyramid.
~~~
robin_reala
Yep, muon tomography is a thing. Scientists also use them to visualise this
interiors of volcanos (for example).
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muon_tomography](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muon_tomography)
------
audio1001
This article is garbage by the third sentence. Only "evidence" Khufu built the
pyramid is the forged cartouche in the "relieving chamber" of the "King's
chamber." The entire history is predicated on its supposed authenticity.
------
Graham24
I hope it's Bayek
------
jandrese
What's hiding in the article? Maybe we can use tiny robots to drive over to
the server rack and hit the reset switch.
~~~
pbhjpbhj
I think the robots send their lower paid servants to do such tasks nowadays.
------
paulcole
If there's ever been a more gift-wrapped Nicolas Cage movie plot I haven't
seen it.
~~~
strictnein
"I'm going to steal the great pyramid of Giza"
~~~
acheron
Gritty reboot of Carmen Sandiego?
~~~
sthu11182
reboot of stargate
------
antishatter
Eh nothin
------
vtange
When the inevitable day comes when we fully and thoroughly finish scanning
every nook and cranny of the Pyramids, I wonder if they will be able to
maintain their novelty? Will tourists eventually cast the place aside as "been
there, seen it all" once technology has fully mapped the place?
~~~
colemannugent
I think "VR tourism" could be a pretty cool thing if large scale 3D mapping of
interesting places takes off. I imagine it to be a little like a more
immersive "Street View" from Google Maps.
You could walk through all of the strange passages of the pyramids one minute
and then be looking at Earth from the surface of the moon the next.
~~~
irrational
To be honest, Google Street Maps and Google Earth already do this for me.
There are a lot of places that I've wanted to visit, but after seeing them on
Google Earth I've found that my desire to visit such places is gone. I look at
it as a cheap form of tourism without the risk of pick-pockets ;-)
However, I still want to travel and experience places that are not man-made. I
love to hike and there are trails all over the world I'd like to explore.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Rich Kids of App.net - ohnoinky
http://richkidsofappdotnet.tumblr.com
======
true_religion
What's with the smear campaign?
------
truebecomefalse
How do you know they are rich?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Show HN: Ideas to get more clients for freelancers and agencies - rabbitsfoot8
https://tiiny.host/75-ideas-freelancers-agencies/
======
rabbitsfoot8
Hey guys,
I've been working on a resource to help freelancers & agencies get more
clients, thought it would be useful in these times.
Whilst browsing around I couldn't find a thorough resource with ideas and
actionable tips, just blog posts. Whilst you may have heard a few of them
before I think putting them into a handy resource helps you brainstorm new
avenues for business.
Let me know what you guys think! Have you tried any of these? Any more you
think I should add? Looking to continually update this.
~~~
gsempe
There is few things that I tried myself and they some were effective for me.
For the partner section the Stripe partner program is interesting
[https://stripe.com/docs/partners](https://stripe.com/docs/partners)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Show HN: Chrome dictionary plugin with context extraction and spaced repetition - vgr789
https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/vocblocks-lookup/ehnoadhemhhkcggnacpabgdpnoacadao
======
vgr789
Hi there! I've published a dictionary extension in the Google Chrome store
recently and it would be nice to get some feedback.
Generally, the extension provides a translation for a selected word directly
on the web page, but there are several features that set it apart from similar
extensions out there.
Firstly, you can see both the definition in your target language and the
translation into your native language in the same pop up window. I myself have
found it really useful when studying English. I look at English-English aka
definitions most of the time but with some words, like nouns, for example, a
direct translation works better. The extension currently supports 19
languages.
Secondly, you can use the extension as a dictionary app by opening it in its
own browser window/tab and typing in words you want to look up. Again you can
see both definitions and translations so you get the same look and feel as in
a pop up window.
And finally - I read a lot online and even though at my level of English the
unknown words I look up are not the most frequently used ones, I still want to
further grow my vocabulary, both passive and active. The extension, being a
part of a bigger vocblocks project
([https://www.vocblocks.com](https://www.vocblocks.com)), helps with this too.
It captures words I look up together with their context (the sentences they
were found in), packages them on
[https://www.vocblocks.com](https://www.vocblocks.com) into a special block of
vocabulary, aka a vocblock, and sends email notifications prompting me to
practise the words on the spaced repetition schedule.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
IOS Tutorial: Connect to Foursquare using OAuth - Fortaymedia
http://ios-blog.com/tutorials/ios-connect-to-foursquare-using-oauth/
======
stevekinney
This is super useful. Oauth isn't my favorite thing to work with, and I'm new
to iOS. This helped on both ends.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Gitlet: Git implemented in JavaScript - fogus
http://gitlet.maryrosecook.com/
======
maryrosecook
I wrote a short post about how and why I made Gitlet:
[http://maryrosecook.com/blog/post/introducing-
gitlet](http://maryrosecook.com/blog/post/introducing-gitlet)
~~~
317070
I can't seem to find the rebase code? I've always wondered how that part
works. Great work otherwise! I've already taken a look at the three way merger
code.
~~~
ethomson
In a nutshell, it checks out the target and cherry-picks what had been HEAD
onto it, beginning at the merge-base.
[https://github.com/libgit2/libgit2/blob/master/src/rebase.c](https://github.com/libgit2/libgit2/blob/master/src/rebase.c)
may be helpful and (hopefully) readable.
------
Procrastes
I really liked your "Git in 600 words.[1]" I think it will help clear up some
confusion for some of my VCS wary colleagues.
1\. [http://maryrosecook.com/blog/post/git-in-six-hundred-
words](http://maryrosecook.com/blog/post/git-in-six-hundred-words)
~~~
throwawaymsft
Not to be rude, but I'm baffled why a professional programmer could be "wary"
of using a VCS. Or is it just git in particular? (More understandable, there's
a learning curve, but nearly every major project is using it. Git's proven
itself.)
~~~
throwawayaway
git checkout <branch>
where did my changes go?
~~~
knicholes
They're still right where they were before you switched branches unless you've
committed them before you switched branches, of course!
~~~
throwawayaway
mkdir commadir
cd commadir
git init
echo "dog" >> dog.txt
git add .
git commit -m one
echo "dog" >> dog.txt
git add .
git commit -m two
echo "dog" >> dog.txt
git log
git checkout dog.txt
cat dog.txt
how many dogs in dog.txt?
~~~
bryondowd
That isn't "git checkout <branch>", it is "git checkout <file>" If you try
checking out another branch while you have uncommitted changes, git will tell
you to commit or stash your changes before changing branch.
I can certainly understand the danger/confusion there, though. Using checkout
on a file reverts the file to a committed state. But the grandparent was
referring to checking out a branch, not a file, which is safe.
~~~
throwawayaway
git checkout <branch> *
has the same behaviour. does it not? I left out the asterisk as I was working
from memory.
------
patcoll
See also: [https://github.com/creationix/js-
git](https://github.com/creationix/js-git)
Kickstarter: [https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/creationix/js-
git](https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/creationix/js-git)
------
Sir_Cmpwn
I've asked GitHub to enable CORS for their https git endpoints, and I'm not
the first. Email them at [email protected] if you can think of some cool
stuff to do with that enabled.
------
zyxley
It would be interesting to see this baked into a browser-based text editor.
Make it fully client side and you can potentially save the git history in
localstorage and use it as an offline web app. I wonder if there are any git
servers that support websockets...
~~~
azeirah
You don't need git for that, simply save every keystroke made by the user.
~~~
WickyNilliams
Can't tell if you mean overwriting after every keystroke (if so, no history);
or saving a "fresh copy" after each keystroke (history, but terribly
inefficient - localStorage has space limitations); or saving a series of diffs
(how far do you have to go down that path before you realise you should have
just used git?)
------
filearts
This is a collossal effort and a huge community service. Thank you for being
so thorough in documenting your work. Even if others don't directly use your
code, you have given the world a great template to understand and implement
git!
------
skeoh
Some might also find js-git interesting: [https://github.com/creationix/js-
git](https://github.com/creationix/js-git)
~~~
isxek
Thanks for posting this. I remembered seeing a similar project before, but I
couldn't remember the name.
------
zrail
OT: I love the typography on your site, especially the little touches like the
decenders overlapping link underlines.
edit: after some research turns out the link underline styling is a Safari
thing. My point stands, though, the typography is wonderful.
------
caipre
> Sometimes, I can only understand something by implementing it. So, I wrote
> Gitlet, my own version of Git. I pored over tutorials. I read articles about
> internals. I tried to understand how API commands work by reading the docs,
> then gave up and ran hundreds of experiments on repositories and rummaged
> throught the .git directory to figure out the results.
When the source itself is available, why not just read the code? I understand
using articles and documentation to get the high to mid level view, but why
not go to the real source of truth if it's available?
~~~
nicholasjbs
I find reading the source of things can be incredibly helpful in some cases,
but when I want to really grok something, I need to write code myself. When
I'm just reading code it's easy to trick myself into thinking I understand
something, but it's much harder to do that if I have to make a piece of code
work correctly.
Peter Seibel wrote a great post on code reading, which hits on a similar
point: [http://www.gigamonkeys.com/code-
reading/](http://www.gigamonkeys.com/code-reading/)
~~~
caipre
I was referring more to the "ran hundreds of experiments" than the
"understanding by implementing." I agree wholeheartedly that actually making
something reveals far more about a problem/solution than would simply reading
about it.
------
hyp0
A related way to learn is from git's initial source, which was quite small.
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8650483](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8650483)
Warning: the file format has changed slightly.
------
phatak-dev
Superb effort.
------
joelthelion
What are the expected use cases?
~~~
bmj
From TFA:
_I wrote Gitlet to explain how Git works. I didn 't write it to be used. It
would be unwise to use Gitlet to version control your projects._
------
jokoon
how are files handled ?
------
nhlx2
Why JavaScript?
~~~
robotnoises
Atwood's law?
------
brianwillis
This is the most extreme example of Atwood's law that I've seen so far of.
Any volunteers for making an operating system kernel? Or has that been done
already?
~~~
icebraining
Well, the NetBSD kernel has been ported to JS:
[http://blog.netbsd.org/tnf/entry/kernel_drivers_compiled_to_...](http://blog.netbsd.org/tnf/entry/kernel_drivers_compiled_to_javascript)
It's using emscripten, not handwritten JS, though.
~~~
agumonkey
My favorite emscripten demo was
[https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2014/03/12/mozilla-and-epic-
pr...](https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2014/03/12/mozilla-and-epic-preview-
unreal-engine-4-running-in-firefox/)
It was really impressive to see UE4 running at ~7 fps on an old ThinkPad
(without discrete GPU) in pure software.
~~~
jcrites
Do you happen to have a link to the demo? I looked around but haven't been
able to find it.
It looks like the demo lived at the time at
[https://www.unrealengine.com/html5](https://www.unrealengine.com/html5) \-
and the site doesn't seem to work through Wayback Machine.
~~~
agumonkey
I randomly clicked on an URL Brendan Eich gave on twitter. Maybe this
[http://kripken.github.io/misc-js-
benchmarks/banana/benchmark...](http://kripken.github.io/misc-js-
benchmarks/banana/benchmark.html)
bbl
------
gitspirit
git is a tool that have to be introduced to as many as possible, even non-
developers. In essence git is a fundamental part of the future global world
collaboration. One can't overestimate the gits value.
~~~
eyko
> One can't overestimate the gits value
I think you just did that.
~~~
gitspirit
In my world I haven't
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
AirBnB for Driveways - mmcconnell1618
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/business/2012/01/homeowners-rent-out-driveways-for-money/
======
johnmurch
For cities, especially home owners who have a deeded parking spot, but doesn't
have a cart - this is genius! Airbnb for parking, going to be big!
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
SenderDefender open beta, client side encrypted big file transfer - mbranton
https://www.senderdefender.com/
======
mbranton
Hi guys,
Looking for testing and feedback, let me know what you think.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Developments in tech in Toronto over the past seven years - salbowski
https://blog.brainstation.io/how-toronto-became-a-global-tech-leader-in-7-years/
======
kirbypineapple
The wages in Toronto are laughable. In the praries it's possible to make maybe
10 to 20k less than Toronto salaries but the houses are half the price.
~~~
adriand
These conversations, which appear every time a post appears on HN that talks
about what a great place Toronto is (along with many other places in Canada),
make me sad.
There is so much more to life than money.
~~~
jgh
Sure but Toronto is expensive and they pay isn't very good considering. If it
were people lamenting only being paid $300k instead of $400k then we could be
like "it's just money!" but I heard when I was there a few months back
CAD$120k is pretty typical for a senior dev, which is roughly $90k USD, and
the housing and whatnot isn't all that much cheaper than in big US cities.
~~~
nasalgoat
I would go as far to say that $120K is exceptionally _high_ for a senior dev
and in fact $100K is an upper boundary.
~~~
apercu
As I mentioned elsewhere, it depends on what you consider a "senior" dev. A
couple years of experience _does not_ make you a senior.
The upper boundary for an intermediate in Toronto is certainly $90-95k.
------
apercu
I see these posts a lot lately. I've worked in Chicago, Madison, Palo Alto,
Mountain View, Des Moines, Hopewell New Jersey and Toronto.
A few points: A "senior" dev in Toronto would be someone with 8-10 years of
experience. They can easily make 120+. I've hired many of them. Very few
organizations in the GTA consider someone with 2-4 years a "senior", and those
people will be lucky to make 90k. That make the COL in the GTA difficult.
If you truly are an amazing developer and you can't get a high salary in the
GTA, get in touch.
Also, it would be interesting to see the ages of people who post. When I was
in my 20's I'm sure I would have stayed in the Bay area if salaries were as
good as they are now. But there really wasn't a _huge_ disparity in wages in
the late 90's/Early 2000's between SV and elsewhere. I likely would have left
the Bay area in my 30's though. And moving to Canada is one of the best
decisions I feel I have ever made, especially considering the last 2 years.
EDIT: As a side note, I think outside of SV, ALL tech salaries (and all other
industries)are too low and have been stagnant for the most part for a decade.
------
canada_dry
As a Canadian tech guy who travels to Silicon Valley and Seattle fairly
frequently the impression that most US techies have is that Toronto is an
awesome place to live, but it is not (yet) a magnet for top talent.
There are many amazing startups at any given moment in Toronto... but many of
the folks involved have their sights set on FANG.
~~~
paulie_a
I am not familiar with Toronto personally but it would have one huge benefit
over silicon valley...you don't have to live in silicon valley.
Edit: I'd prefer Siberia over sv, there is a reason talented people are
getting the hell out of there and many major companies are building huge
offices elsewhere.
~~~
abrichr
What is the reason?
~~~
paulie_a
Cost of living/lack of decent housing, low quality transportation and quite
frankly the snobbery of SV to name a few.
------
Apocryphon
Is this truly significant, or is it spin to sell a city? Not to be harsh, but
I've read the accounts of Canadian expats on the comparatively low wages back
home. Not SF low, but low even compared to other cities in the U.S.
~~~
devoply
In Canada, salaries for tech seem to normally max out around 100k for
developers (with exceptions for working for big US/multinational companies
like Amazon, MSFT, etc.). Even 80k is pretty common for senior developers...
In Canadian dollars. So around 80k USD is max a Canadian developer can expect
to make other than a few unusual cases thrown in there which might go as high
as 130k CAD so around 100k USD is a stellar Canadian development salary. If
you compare this to how H1B workers are paid in the US, it's around those
sorts of rates. I don't see it improving any time soon because the revenue
that this work generates is not 10x multiples like you see in the US. Canada
does not have the VC culture to support a tech culture that produces 100s of
millions to billions in returns. If US companies come looking for remote
workers they are looking to pay Canadian rates and save money that way.
~~~
tlear
100k? maybe 5-6 years ago, it is not the case anymore at all. I dont what the
max is but 140-150 is no that unusual(for senior people obviously)
~~~
jandrewrogers
That may be because that is about US$100k at the current exchange rates. A
cynic would say that the comp has only gone up because the exchange rate has,
since tech tends to be denominated in USD.
------
pards
I've been living and working in Toronto since 2003, and can attest that it
truly is a fantastic city to live in.
Most of the senior developers I know in Toronto work as independent
contractors for large enterprises because they can get paid significantly more
than the base salaries mentioned here. Contractor rates rival Silicon Valley
salaries.
The downside of independent contracting is that you forgo sick pay, holiday
pay, and employee-sponsored perks like extended health care. However, Ontario
has an excellent public health system that covers all residents so the need
for additional health benefits is questionable.
~~~
qcpydev
Hi, I'm a contractor in Québec City work as a Business analyst. Can you tell
me what is the hourly rate in Toronto ? And how do you find your clients ?
It's my first year of working as a contractor. Thanks.
~~~
apercu
Depends on your experience/expertise. I typically see vast ranges with more
junior people charging $50/hr, intermediates at $80/hr, and seniors (people
with decades of business experience) between $100-180/hr.
I sub out work now and then, I'll add an email address to my profile. I'd like
to know your skill sets.
~~~
qcpydev
Oh thanks for your reply. Here in Québec city consulting companies charge
70-75 for gov contracting, and in insurances companies you can get 80-100 per
hour. Yes add your e-mail adress, we can take the discussion further :)
~~~
apercu
Done.
~~~
toto123456
Hi, sorry for the late reply, that's my other account, I can't see your e-mail
on your profile. Thanks.
~~~
apercu
Sorry, check now.
------
bungie4
I'm from Toronto. Congrats to Toronto for its accomplishments.
It should be realized that their is a great standard of living available
outside of major tech centers all across the country(s). The opportunity is
different, but the jobs do exist. I'd argue that their is far more opportunity
outside of tech centers than within. A tech center addresses the issue of
distribution. More specifically, of concentration. Having a small cluster of a
100 or so tech businesses conveniently located pales in comparison to the 10's
of thousands scatter across the corporate landscape.
Its myopic to measure 'success' with such a short term metric. My measure of
success is different at a wholesale level from my 20's to my 40's. Toronto is
fantastic for those less than 30. Tons to see and do, easy access to
everything. Flash forward 20 years with a family and kids and it's not so
attractive anymore. What were once benefits are now become detriments.
That being said, today is my last day at work in my less than 150K population
town. I start a new job in 2 weeks, +$$, +benefits etc. Same scenario, smaller
location. My compensation is is within striking distance of the wages in
Toronto's tech center. But without the heavy cost of accommodations (all else
being marginally cheaper) but more importantly, I'm 5 minutes from a entire
world of green space and the crushing humanity that is found in all major
centers, Toronto included.
Enjoy your success T.O. :D
~~~
microcolonel
As a Canadian-U.S. dual citizen who has spent my whole life in Canada, and
most of it in Toronto, I honestly can't justify settling down in Ontario. The
taxes are high and complicated, the services are subpar (and I don't use most
of them), and Canada largely lacks the civil rights stability enjoyed in the
U.S. under the Constitution (as currently amended and interpreted),
particularly regarding freedom of speech and the bounds of unlawful search.
~~~
cam3ham
lolwat
~~~
dang
Please don't do this here.
------
adamgravitis
Toronto’s tech talent is keen... but relatively green. Since few companies
have had to deal with scaling networks, users and data to the same magnitude
as is common with Valley companies, it’s almost impossible to find senior
engineers worthy of the title. Plenty of options for junior and intermediate,
though.
~~~
ninjakeyboard
Yeah. I'm struggling to find really solid engineers in the city. I need really
experienced people and I can't find anyone. Even the most sr consultants and
contractors have a lot of gaps and don't understand the real edge cases that
appear in systems.
I was lucky enough to learn from a team as we went through a google
acquisition and watch and learn as the technology was scaled in both the
context of a startup, and later inside Google. I was the whitebelt in the back
of the room but that experience of working in that team was the most valuable
experience I could have ever hoped for and I still regularly mail the people
that I absorbed from to let them know how grateful I am to have taken me along
on that journey. It's not a common experience but that completely humbled me
and fixed my dunning-kruger arrogant ass.
~~~
grigory
Jumping into a project with a truly world-class team is a very humbling
experience, and certainly something to seek out in one's career!
------
lucidone
Why live in Toronto for a 90k CAD salary when I can live close to Waterloo and
get an 80k CAD salary? Perhaps I'm very lucky, but it goes a lot farther.
~~~
dear
You can live in Waterloo and work in Toronto. Commute by greyhound daily. I
know people who do that for years.
------
raverbashing
No, Toronto isn't a "Global tech leader"
A lot of startups, but a significant amount seem very "gimmicky". (Probably
less than SV, but it seems there are less companies that "started up" then
grew to a significant size). That or you can work for the Megacorps, usually
in the suburbs in their lifeless campuses.
Not to mention the salaries.
Also Canada tech companies in general seems to use less open source than USA
or Europe.
~~~
cam3ham
Ecobee, WealthSimple, Shopify,
~~~
raverbashing
I'd say Shopify is an exception (and it started in Ottawa)
I hadn't heard about the other two
------
cam3ham
I'm from Toronto but did 3 year stint in SF and then a 4 year stint in NYC. I
moved back to Toronto last year to purchase and settle into my home base. Love
it here.
These comments are hilarious and so typical of Toronto - there is a reason
it's called the "screwface capital" of the world and I think it really rings
true.
------
se30b
Those Mirvish+Gehry tower plans look hideous. How did such a monstrosity get
approved? What an absolute embarrassment for Toronto, lol.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Porting a 15 yr old .NET 1.1 Virtual CPU Tiny OS school project to .NET Core 2.0 - riqbal
https://www.hanselman.com/blog/PortingA15YearOldNET11VirtualCPUTinyOperatingSystemSchoolProjectToNETCore20.aspx
======
taspeotis
Porting a 15 year old .NET 1.1 Virtual CPU Tiny OS school project to .NET 2.0 (hanselman.com)
2 points by riqbal 33 minutes ago
This title is misleading, it's .NET Core 2.0, not .NET. The blog post gets it
right.
~~~
riqbal
Sorry for that. I've edited the title
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Tiny mites spark big battle over imports of French cheese (2013) - Vlad81b
https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2013/05/11/180570160/tiny-mites-spark-big-battle-over-imports-of-french-cheese
======
robin_reala
Charles Babbage (of Analytical Engine fame) wrote an entire chapter of his
sort-of-autobiography where he imagines life from the perspective of a
cheesemite philosopher:
[https://www.gutenberg.org/files/57532/57532-h/57532-h.htm#p4...](https://www.gutenberg.org/files/57532/57532-h/57532-h.htm#p406)
(I did a production of this book as a nice epub for Standard Ebooks:
[https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/charles-
babbage/passages-f...](https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/charles-
babbage/passages-from-the-life-of-a-philosopher) if you want something for
your reader.)
~~~
aspenmayer
Thanks for this. It’s great you did this and shared it.
------
sjackso
I once bought a piece of mimollete cheese on a lark. When I ate it later that
day, I was extremely impressed by the rich and nutty flavor, and wondered how
I had reached adulthood without knowing about something so delicious.
So I looked it up on wikipedia. And learned about the mites.
When I looked closely at the rind of the the cheese I'd bought-- sure enough,
it was busy with tiny, transparent crawlies.
I still like mimolette, but there's something in the back of my brain that
cannot forget the mites. The innocent bliss of that first experience is
impossible to recapture.
~~~
GuiA
You have similar mites living on your face too.
[https://www.npr.org/sections/health-
shots/2019/05/21/7250878...](https://www.npr.org/sections/health-
shots/2019/05/21/725087824/meet-the-mites-that-live-on-your-face)
~~~
Retric
Human mites are up to 0.016in while cheese mites can be about twice that size
0.028in making them much easier to see.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demodex_folliculorum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demodex_folliculorum)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrophagus_casei](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrophagus_casei)
~~~
sjackso
Yes, illogical though it be, the fact that my eyelash dust might be motile
bothers me less than seeing live arachnids in my food.
------
wazoox
If you keep your cheese warm enough (not refrigerated for 4 to 6 hours) you
can even see the mites run in your plate at times :) They're not actually
microscopic, though they're really, really small. There are cheeses that gets
their name (and taste) from the mites : "la tomme céronnée" is so called
because it's covered with "cirons" (mites) that gives it its typical nutty
taste (you're of course supposed to eat the rind, eventually after brushing
off some of the dust).
Another interesting thing to now is that raw milk cheeses have an intense life
of their own, but they're less susceptible to host bad bugs : the existing
fauna and flora keeps the nasty ones out. OTOH, a pasteurized cheese must be
either almost sterile, or may rapidly host all sorts of bad microbes.
~~~
omginternets
>eventually
Fellow compatriot spotted ;)
Just FYI, “eventually” != “éventuellement”.
Also, do you want to tell them about Corsican cheese, or should I?
~~~
tasogare
Isn’t that cheese forbidden? It’s more a meat product than diary at this
point.
~~~
freeqaz
I couldn't find this when I searched the web for it. Are you meaning Casu
marzu?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casu_marzu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casu_marzu)
~~~
Leynos
The Wikipedia article gives a suggestion for how to kill the maggots (and
force them to vacate the cheese) if one is squeamish. The article actually
makes it sound rather delicious (if hard to obtain).
------
wcoenen
Sounds like something that could be solved with food irradiation [1] after the
cheese has ripened, to kill the mites. It's similar to pasteurization, but
without any of the heat which would melt the cheese. And it's already FDA
approved[2].
[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_irradiation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_irradiation)
[2] [https://www.fda.gov/food/buy-store-serve-safe-food/food-
irra...](https://www.fda.gov/food/buy-store-serve-safe-food/food-irradiation-
what-you-need-know)
~~~
tomxor
Does it need to be solved? Is it an actual problem? I'm not clear what the
issues is with eating them.
What's the difference between mites in this cheese and bacteria in yogurt?
they are both intrinsic to the process of producing respective foods.
~~~
stevula
Many food regulations seem to be based on people’s traditional idea of
cleanliness than on actual salutary benefits. I doubt hair and cockroaches are
huge disease vectors but I still don’t want them in or near my food.
~~~
saiya-jin
Yeah but if you kill the mites/worms/whatever, its still _in_ the cheese, just
dead. I would actually prefer the, you know, meaty part, to be fresh upon
digestion
~~~
tomxor
:D well said, we want our cheese mites fresh and squirming.
------
swimfar
In Germany there is a cheese called Milbenkäse (mite cheese) that contains
live mites inside the cheese, not just on the rind. They contain hundreds of
thousands of them per cheese block.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milbenk%C3%A4se](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milbenk%C3%A4se)
~~~
kergonath
And of course that’s nothing compared to casu marzu. Granted, they are maggots
and not mites.
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casu_marzu](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casu_marzu)
------
numpad0
Could anyone educate me on how to dereference and unsee this article from my
brain? I very much love cheeses and never noticed this ... fact.
~~~
distantaidenn
Don’t look up how figs are pollinated.
~~~
HeWhoLurksLate
If, like me, you also don't want to find out how figs are pollinated, here's
an article I didn't immediately turn around and find-
[https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/85340/fig-pollination-
in...](https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/85340/fig-pollination-incredible-
and-probably-results-you-eating-mummified-wasps)
------
jccooper
I had to find out what happened. Apparently after a year it came back, but why
is unclear.
[https://www.kansascity.com/living/liv-columns-blogs/chow-
tow...](https://www.kansascity.com/living/liv-columns-blogs/chow-
town/article2742471.html)
[https://www.dairyreporter.com/Article/2013/04/17/FDA-
dismiss...](https://www.dairyreporter.com/Article/2013/04/17/FDA-dismisses-
reports-of-US-import-ban-on-French-mimolette-cheese)
French raw milk cheeses are still banned, though.
~~~
swimfar
Not all raw milk cheese is banned. Raw milk cheeses that have been aged less
than 60 days are not allowed in the US and Canada(excluding Quebec). You can
buy raw milk cheese in most supermarkets in the US.
------
pmoriarty
I wonder how the FDA feels about civet coffee.
------
pbhjpbhj
Why stop the sale, if there are problems with allergies can't you just label
the cheese "[may] contain mites" under the allergen list?
Do the mites taste worse if they're dead? Seems they could be killed
relatively easily by placing then in an oxygen free container for a while?
~~~
kergonath
Cheese is often a bargaining chip in trade negotiations, or collateral damage
when the American government wants so show it’s not happy. One example was the
banana trade wars in the 1990s, which saw things like roquefort (as well as
other European food) getting banned and un-banned a couple of times. It often
has not much to do with actual food safety.
~~~
swimfar
True, but I doubt that banning this one very specific cheese (that is much
less known than Roquefort in the US) is due to trade negotiations. Even the
German mite cheese is supposedly in kind of a legal grey area in the EU.
~~~
kergonath
You’re right, in this instance apparently some customs agents did not like the
look of one batch. My memory is a bit hazy, and finding details is difficult.
The report is fantastic though, you can feel the disgust of the officer who
wrote it:
— The article is subject to refusal of admission pursuant to Section 801(a)(3)
in that it the article appears to consist in whole or in part of a filthy,
putrid, or decomposed substance or be otherwise unfit for food. —
[https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/importrefusals/index....](https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/importrefusals/index.cfm)
There are actually a bunch of things that are not entirely compliant with EU
regulations but get some kind of exemption because they are traditional, and
usually not produced in large quantities. Sometimes they can be produced but
not sold, like the casu marzu mentioned elsethread.
------
Animats
Just irradiate it. Problem solved.
------
slater
(2013)
~~~
Vlad81b
let me remove this. sorry
~~~
hadrien01
Why remove it? It's interesting!
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Why Perl Didn't Win - nkurz
http://outspeaking.com/words-of-technology/why-perl-didnt-win.html
======
ghshephard
I was a Perl scripter (I never rose to the level of JAPH) from around 1998 to
2002, with my final accomplishment being a two-way HRIS synchronization system
between our installation of peoplesoft and our LDAP server (Netscape LDAP
server, awesome product).
And then I met Python, and I never wrote another line of Perl, and have
written some python code almost every week since then.
There were two _personal_ reasons why I left Perl.
First - I would write some code, it would do what I wanted, but then I would
come back in a week (or even a few days) and have no idea _how_ it worked.
This is code that _I_ wrote. Yes, I know this is a personal failing (I said
these were _personal_ reasons) - but, on the flipside, I've never had anything
I've written in Python that I didn't completely understand how it worked any
time in the future. Perl just let me write code that was too complex for my
brain to comprehend. I blame implicit variables. [edit - and perhaps an over
reliance on regex.]
Second, If I hadn't used them for a month or so, I used to struggle with
Arrays of Hashes and Hashes of Arrays. Once I eyeballed my template, it all
came back, but the syntax imposed enough cognitive overhead that I struggled
with that data structure (which is one that you use a lot).
On the flip side - the very _first_ day I was learning Python, I thought to
myself, "What if I just drop an array (list) as an object in this hash (dict),
or a dict in this list? Will this work?
And it did. Close to zero cognitive overhead.
So, that's why I left Perl - Readability and complexity of what should be bog
simple data structures.
~~~
Mithaldu
A consideration to you:
You spent 4 years of learning Perl, 4 years in which you likely also massively
improved your skills as a programmer, regardless of the Perl angle. Then you
went to Python, bringing in your programmer experience, probably started off
with a good book and had a much happier time.
So, do challenge yourself and ponder how much of that come from having spent 4
years programming, and how much from actual differences in the languages?
~~~
ghshephard
It's an interesting perspective, but, seriously - for the life of me, I
struggled every time I wanted to declare/parse/initialize an AoH or HoA on
perl. And I'm not engaging in hyperbole when I said that my code was basically
completely foreign to me a week after writing it.
Obviously developers (which I am not), and people with more discipline and
structure, and write eminently readable and maintainable perl code - but as my
day job was network engineering, I was just looking for the lowest cost path
to get the job done.
I really did love CPAN though.
~~~
kbenson
That's interesting, because defining an AoH or HoA in Perl is almost identical
to how you would do it in Javascript, which is to say it looks a lot like
JSON.
If it was the access and assignment semantics, the normal case is also fairly
straightforward; use curly braces for hash/dict keys, square brackets for
array indices.
E.g.
my %data = (
foo => [
{ bar => 10, baz => 12 },
{ bar => 20, baz => 13 },
{ bar => 30, baz => 14 },
],
);
print $data{foo}[2]{bar}; # 30
push $data{foo}, { bar => 40, baz => 15 };
Given, using array and hash references with the built-in
push,pop,shift,unshift,keys,values and each used to require some annoying
dereferencing that could be confusing.
Do you still find that confusing?
~~~
ghshephard
I'll admit to not having looked at it for about 12 years, and, of course, I'm
not saying I couldn't figure out after 2-3 minutes over looking over the
pattern, but it just never flowed the way it did with Python for me.
data ={}
data['foo']= [
{'bar':10,'baz':12},
{'bar':20,'baz':13},
{'bar':30,'baz':14}
]
print data['foo'][2]['bar']
data['foo'].append({'bar':40,'baz':15})
for x in data['foo']:
print x['bar']
Maybe it had something to do with indices always being [] brackets and {} only
being used to define the dict structure. Or maybe it got easier sometime in
the last 12 years? Or, maybe you could onto something, and having come pre-
primed with knowledge hashes/arrays, I just picked up python more quickly.
Anyways, it was just a personal story told as well as I could remember it.
------
bane
Maintenance. I say this as somebody who loves Perl, quirks and all (actually
because of the quirks). It's actually a beautiful language to work in in the
same way English is a beautiful language -- it's a beauty because it's a
goddamn mess. But it's a rotten language to maintain.
Sure, it's perfectly possible to write highly maintainable code (I have a few
30-40k line Perl projects that I can open up and get right to work on without
too much fuss) and you can create some coding standards and stick to them, and
write perfectly maintainable code. But Perl is a bit like C++ in the sense
that everybody has different standards and those standards change and "non-
standard" bits of the language start leaking into your code and you spend as
much time unmessing things as you do writing code.
I don't think Perl will ever really die, it's too convenient, but it's
definitely never going to enjoy the dominance it once had. It'll fall back to
a very good one-off system admin and log processing language with some extra
bits, but it's simply a language that the rest of the world has surpassed and
Perl 6 just isn't a realistic offering, after a _very_ loooong wait (nor does
it fix the issues non-Perlers have with the language -- it's basically fan
service).
~~~
mst
I don't want the popularity we once had.
The same people who wrote unreadable, unmaintainable perl went on to do the
same sort of damage in PHP, then python, then ruby/rails, and now node.js/go.
They were never a net positive to the community, and I'm not sorry to see them
causing problems for somebody else.
(and before somebody says "but that doesn't happen in X" ... yes, it does,
even python lets you write code that looks superficially comprehensible but
turns out to be so horribly illogical structurally that it's impossible to
maintain - I quite like python but I've been there and I was kinda scared
because at least wrong perl looks wrong to start with, whereas wrong python
looks fine until you realise just how much of a crawling horror it is)
~~~
mamcx
With python is not the same. Even if the developers is truly bad and do a
mess, is a _decipherable_ mess. Requiere truly talent to do a hard-to-
understand mess in python, and in that case, is very likely the code was made
by a good developer ;)
~~~
yellowapple
> Requiere truly talent to do a hard-to-understand mess in python, and in that
> case, is very likely the code was made by a good developer ;)
Last I checked, the whole "if it was hard for me to write, it should be hard
for others to understand" was still a mockery, not a seriously-interpreted
excuse. It ignores the fact that the programmer's future self will eventually
need to maintain that code. The developer might have skill, but one who writes
unmaintainable messes as anything other than a Perl-golf-style mental exercise
probably lacks wisdom. :)
------
jmacdotorg
Articles which critique Perl as a whole by focusing on Perl 6 always strike me
as a bit strange. As someone who works professionally with Perl every day, and
starts several new projects using Moose-centric modern Perl techniques every
year, the amount of time I or any of my colleagues spend thinking about Perl 6
is negligible.
The modern Perl movement, as far as I can tell, arose in part from Perl
hackers who started to treat the wandering Perl 6 project — rife with neat
ideas, if not with release engineering — as a skunkworks for Perl 5
extensions. In the gap between the middle-aughts and 2014 that this writer
waves away with “is anyone still paying attention?” due to no Perl 6 release,
the active Perl world adopted Moose, and many Perl-based Moose-driven
technologies — Catalyst, DBIC, and so on.
These technologies, and the communities around them, have thrived on their own
ever since. Nowadays when I think about Perl 6, it is often because I am at a
Perl conference and Larry Wall is literally at the podium talking about it and
I am like “Well. You go, Larry Wall.”
Perl really has reinvented itself in the last handful of years, at least in
the eyes of those who make a living inventing new things with it. I can’t call
this writer wrong — their perspective is their own. I suppose I can only learn
to appreciate the notion that, to hackerly folks who aren’t as ensconced
within the modern Perl community as I, the language is this thing from the
1990s that kicked the bucket through one bad decision in the summer of 2000,
leaving behind acres of legacy code that’s still being scraped away.
To be fair: this indeed describes a lot of what I am hired to do. It’s just
that I replace it all with newer and better Perl…
------
overgard
Perl is sort of like trying to read someone else's brain (in this case Larry
Wall's). You get themes and kind of the gist of where it's going, but it never
quite adds up to some sort of coherent whole.
The defense has always been that Perl is designed more like natural language
than programming language, ok, but: natural languages are a LOT harder to
learn than programming languages. Put me in a room with Haskell and I'll learn
it in a month. Give me a month of training in french and I'll maybe be able to
not make an entire ass of myself if I try to get from point A to point B.
Human languages are hard. Design wise -- I'm not sure that's what you want to
aim for.
Almost everything you learn is... surprising. Like flattening lists. Useful in
a context, maybe, but is that the kind of thing anyone would ever expect? And
why is "list" (@) part of the variable name in the first place? It's like
"dynamically typed, kind of, except your variable name has to say if it's one
thing or many things or many things referenced with keys". What the fuck? I'd
rather the python way of "it's a name that points to a thing, whatever that
thing is". GOT IT. Simple.
I program in C++ for a living, probably the biggest clusterF of a language
ever devised (outside of perl), and the thought of reading Perl still
terrifies me.
~~~
stormbrew
> Put me in a room with Haskell and I'll learn it in a month. Give me a month
> of training in french and I'll maybe be able to not make an entire ass of
> myself if I try to get from point A to point B. Human languages are hard.
To be fair, I don't think this is actually because human languages are all
that hard to become competent (note: not fluent) in. It's just that with
computer languages you have an endlessly patient practice partner to work
with. In particular, I think the complexity of competent Haskell is definitely
higher than most spoken languages.
------
rustyconover
The same things could be argued as for why, why C didn't win, or C++ didn't
win, or even really PASCAL/Smalltalk/Lisp didn't win. "Winning" is temporary
and not the end goal of any language and is best left to be declared by
Charlie Sheen like pundits trying to demonstrate their language bigotry.
Is Perl the first tool that some of us think of when solving a problem? It
might not be for you but it is frequently for me. Ruby might be your first
choice, and really that's fine.
You're not a lesser or better programmer than anyone else if you choose
something besides Perl either. Honestly, if you can solve the problems that
you need to solve and you can work with your team, that's the only thing that
matters. Not that you're using some language that isn't "winning".
As for Perl not having support for recent things like Stripe, that's just
silly to argue (the author really should have searched the CPAN). Perl has
many new modules, Dancer, Catalyst, Moose, Plack, Starman, Net::Stripe
(maintained by me), and full support of AWS's offerings. And, yes modules
written in 1999 do get used today, just look at all of LWP.
"Winning" isn't everything. Admittedly, Perl 6 isn't out or even moving
forward visibly but doesn't mean that the language is irrelevant. Just watch
[https://metacpan.org/recent](https://metacpan.org/recent) to see the pulse of
the community and the new modules released and updated daily.
~~~
oalders
If this article had been written about natural languages, it might be called
"Why French didn't win". It may not be the world's most popular language, but
it's extremely useful to a lot of people.
Winning isn't everything. :)
------
kephra
> You need large absolute numbers of users to grow a library. That's why
> library ecosystems like that of Python, Ruby, and Node.js have grown large
> in recent years.
Thats where the author missed an important point. None of those library
archives have the culture of PAUSE+CPAN to constrain a minimal code quality
when it comes to configuration, documentation, regression test and
installation. This minimal code quality is constrained by CPAN testers, when a
module hits PAUSE, before the module is seen by the unwashed masses who access
CPAN.
I've seen many library archives of other languages, but they are all full of
junk, undocumented junk, untested junk, and junk that does not configure or
install everywhere. The worst example was the LuaRocks system. The quality of
the libraries in the Rocks archive had been so bad, that the church decided to
remove the module keyword from Lua language, to get rid of this junk. But the
code I see for Ruby/Rails, NPM/Node, or PyPy/Python is junk compared to even
those Perl modules, that barely managed to convince CPAN testers.
You not only need the absolute numbers, but important you need a core group
starting the ecosystem who constrain a coding culture. Raw numbers are not
enough. A million apes wont write a Shakespeare novel.
~~~
spacemanmatt
I have been so very burned by CPAN module quality in the past. Claims to CPAN
'minimal code quality' ring hollow with me. Apache's collection of Java code
is MUCH higher quality on average.
------
autarch
I suspect that all the languages that are "winning" right now will have "lost"
10-20 years from now too.
What's the longest lived language out there right now that's actually still in
heavy use? I'd say C. But C has clearly fallen from its position of complete
dominance when _every_ new project was written in C (because it was much
easier than writing assembly).
C++ had its day as well and lives on in many places, but again, it's no longer
the go to language for projects where C isn't the right choice.
How about Java? It was hot stuff in the 90s and it's still huge today, but it
clearly didn't "win".
PHP? We'll be living with legacy PHP code bases for at least 10-20 years but
does anyone honestly think this will be the language that the startups of 2025
use?
Programming is both incredibly faddish and incredibly fast paced. Today's new
hotness is tomorrow's "dead" language.
Give it 5-10 years and I expect to read "Why Python Didn't Win". I expect
we'll see a "Why Ruby Didn't Win" in 10-15 years too.
~~~
rdtsc
So maybe winning is more like winning for a time period. PERL did win. It won
up until early 2000s, then lost. I am guessing it is not getting picked much
for new, greenfield projects. I think that is a cut-off metric. One way get
there is to find a niche. Maybe it isn't the new use-for-everything language.
But at least can become the "ok, use for this one area" language.
C -- still winning in that respect. It is used in many places just because of
hardware or time constraints -- drivers, micro-controllers, optimized fast
parses, low level socket handling code. It just got specialized. Not used
probably for business or back-end systems.
I don't think PERL can claim that same. It seems to me its role has been
replaced by Python, maybe Ruby, Java (for web server back-ends).
C++ still winning. None of the current languages including the new contenders
like Rust and Go can eat its lunch (as they say) when it comes to performance.
Things like games or signal processing. Anything requiring low latency
responses will still see C++ being picked. And with C++11 and C++14 it is
getting a new breath of fresh air. Whoever is going to contend with, will have
a steep hill to climb.
Java? Java still winning. Now if you think of Java as JVM it is winning even
more. Java itself if just a very average language that is also fairly
performant, explicit, IDE friendly. If you had a lot of money and could hire
potentially lots of average or below average programmers to throw at a problem
(which I think often is the wrong approach, but if you did), Java is your
language. And Android. Don't forget Android. If anything it is winning just
because of that.
> Give it 5-10 years and I expect to read "Why Python Didn't Win". I expect
> we'll see a "Why Ruby Didn't Win" in 10-15 years too.
I think it replaced PERL by in large and but now it is feeling the heat in a
lot of areas where it was being used. Scientific community has Julia as a new
kid. Server back-ends have Go and Javascript. Not one big threat but little
paper cuts here and there.
Ruby, I am not familiar with it much, from my outside perspective it looks
like a one-trick-pony = Rails. If something replaces or obsoletes Rails, I
don't see Ruby rising and finding a niche. I could be wrong, so anyone please
correct me here.
~~~
kamaal
I think the definition of 'winning' people use around here is, if start ups
think its a trendy technology to use. So you will see all these new companies
stop using a particular language, and then when some conference happens you
will see talks around the older technologies have dried out, while people are
giving talks on the newer set of technologies.
Its then when you see articles/rants/blog posts on the lines 'Whatever
happened to X which was famous $current_years - 5 years back?'
Please note all the focus is around the new technology. Some one is writing a
new library around this new DB technology some one is using and is writing
about it. Some one just gave a talk on how some scalability problem was solved
by a specific feature in the language. Some one just talked about how testing
got easier, some one writes about how maintenance efforts got reduced because
of a new way in which language deals with type declarations, Or some
programming forum is full of questions and the Google auto suggests can tell
you your question as you are typing it.
Meanwhile some where in a MegaCorp, your maven can't see beyond the company in
house repo. And using a different library takes 3 months of permission cycles.
People sitting in there don't get interview calls and hear about people saying
that the old technology isn't hip any more.
Only thing that is buying Java some time is the large quantities of enterprise
code, which no one has the money to replace.
~~~
oneeyedpigeon
Can you fix the bug in "$current_years - 5 years back", please - it's
bothering me. If you're going to talk in code, at least get it right ;-)
~~~
oneeyedpigeon
Oh, come on downvoter - I put a ";-)" at the end of that. There's literally
zero tolerance for anything lighthearted here, isn't there?
------
steven2012
I gave up on perl when I saw the following code:
$x = $src[$src];
I was confused as hell until I realized that arrays and scalars had different
namespaces. That, along with the fact that "or" and || had different
precedences were what ended Perl for me. I'm not saying that wonderful code
can't be written by Perl, it just wasn't the right language for me in that I
hate memorizing one-off rules, which Perl seemed to have plenty of, instead of
a language that was more internally consistent.
~~~
mst
If you only want a single namespace for everything, I recommend sticking to
only scheme (note: I really love scheme for that property, I'm not being
sarcastic).
Once you learn -enough- perl, there's a sort of overall consistency that's
actually really nice, but there's a gap ... simple perl is very simple, but
mid-level perl is generally a mess until you get to the expert level, and then
its awesome again.
There's probably an analogy to text editors here.
~~~
anko
I couldn't agree more, and that's why I hate perl.
That gap in the middle makes it really hard to hire perl developers unless
they are experts. It's hard to find experts because they think perl code is a
mess before they get there.
It's probably the main failing of perl.
------
ww520
Perl lost because PHP took its place on the web development front.
Perl lost because Python/Ruby took its place on admin front.
Perl lost because the new version took forever to get ready and broke
compatibility with the old code.
~~~
unexistance
1\. True
2\. Linux Admin? maybe. UNIX admin? I'd say Perl still on, as it's installed
by default (yeah not popular anymore, but a LOT of legacy system still run)
3\. cannot comment, as never used new Perl, since UNIX still shipped with old-
ish Perl
maybe, just maybe it's not just winning & losing :D every language will find
it's place eventually.
~~~
nly
On 2: Still 193 unique files in /usr/bin on my system containing the string
'/usr/bin/perl'. Only 51 containing '/usr/bin/python'.
~~~
anko
are you saying python is more efficient? :P
------
steveklabnik
I have two programming tattoos: a Perl camel and a Ruby ruby. That basically
tells the story of why Perl didn't win for me: As soon as I started learning
Ruby, I thought, "Oh, a cleaned-up Perl" and never really wrote any Perl code
again.
I love Perl's personality, its quirkiness, and its massive amount of
libraries. Perl was _massively_ influential on me as a young programmer. But
I'm pretty sure that I won't be writing any Perl ever again.
~~~
Roboprog
Exactly. Perl 6 was forever delayed, and along came Ruby. Or rather, out from
the shadows came Ruby, which was already there before the Perl 6 debacle, and
just needed promotion. The Pragmatic Programmer books were pretty good at
pointing to this cool replacement for Perl that you never knew was already
there (as well as all the buzz from the RoR folks for those of us who weren't
in on the beginning)
I don't really think that the people who left perl all went to PHP.
Now if only there was a "Ruby lite" that ran more like Perl 5 (skipping the GC
for reference counting and a few other performance shortcuts)
~~~
Poiesis
I'm wondering if Swift will fill that role, eventually.
~~~
Roboprog
I hope so. That is, I hope there is a version of Swift outside of Apple-land
(Clang compiler for LLVM extension???). What little bit I have seen so far
looks promising, and it has a significant sponsor to get the language going.
------
kamaal
I got introduced to Perl in 2006, at a time when trolls were screaming 'Perl
is dead' from top of the buildings. Perl was revolutionary to some one like me
who had only done C and assembly language programming. And it turned to be a
great tool for the job back then(Processing massive unstructured text files).
Its still unbeatable in that area.
Back then I saw that people who worked around enterprise projects that used
some kind of a relational database used a lot of Java. People who were jumping
to the Web 2.0 Bandwagon, used stuff like Python and Ruby largely because of
the frameworks. Thereby what's really apparent is tools that are best suited
for the job get traction.
Perl is still unmatched for many things. Unixy things like dealing with large
quantities of text. Gluing things together, getting stuff done quickly etc
etc.
Perl's every day use cases were going way, as database and web heavy things
ruled the business scenarios. Perl largely occupied a niche and ruled it. So
is Python today(Web frameworks), and ruby. Also Perl reached a very high peak
in the 90's. And reaching that kind of level again isn't possible unless Perl
does some very new and paradigm changing.
Perl 6 is kind off believed will do that eventually some day. But from what I
last heard a few day back in this very forum, there are not close to anything
serious even in another 2 years from now.
------
esaym
Articles like this make me sad. Perl is a mature, well supported language with
a thriving community. It is not in maintenance mode, a new version has come
out every year for the last 4 or five years, all with new features, many more
planned. Plus the perl conference attendance has been up every year for the
last few years. [http://www.yapcna.org](http://www.yapcna.org)
You say I should use something more modern? Are not all languages based off of
methodologies from 1950?
And which one of these modern languages do I choose? Rust, Go, Python, Ruby,
Java, JavaScript, node.js, coffee, dart, swift, C#, F#, Scala...
Probably many more that I missed but my head already spins. If anyone says
they know more than 2 of those languages, then they only know them poorly.
I get tired of some new language coming out every year, along with a new
community of trolls to bash everything and tell me I need to drop everything I
already know to learn their new mess.
I must say, none of these languages that are in the news impress me. Yet there
are many perl modules that do impress me.
I enjoy perl and its community. I like that it is not coupled with any huge
corporate sponsorship. It is the bazaar in "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" and
that I like.
------
jacques_chester
The final section, which I was anticipating for the whole article, was
essentially this:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect)
What killed Perl? An imaginary Perl did.
~~~
oalders
>> What Killed Perl?
The article is entitled "Why Perl Didn't Win", not "Why Perl is Dead". Perl
hasn't been killed.
~~~
spacemanmatt
It's dead to me.
------
mattzito
I think there's some good points in this article - and I relate to it, 'cause
this is _exactly_ how I learned Perl.
The one other item that I'll add is that some of the characteristics that make
Perl awesome for sysadmins, like extremely flexible syntax and the ability to
freely access data sturctures in a variety of contexts, can make it more
difficult to build proper software development projects.
Maybe it's just my limited experience, but it seems like Perl organizations
spend a lot more time on mandating coding styles and debating best practices
compared with more structured languages like Ruby or Python.
~~~
gsteinb88
But as was mentioned in another comment, what you mention as a key appeal for
sysadmins is _exactly_ why I can't stand perl. In particular "extremely
flexible syntax" makes taking over the sysadmin job from another person, or
joining a team, a ridiculous amount of effort. I can't begin to tally the
number of hours I've spent with perl code open in one window, and a web
browser open to various different perl guides, the documentation, etc. trying
to figure out what tricks some script is using that makes it completely
incomprehensible to me.
Is it fun? Sometimes, except never when a key service is down and you have
users breathing down your neck. Or your website is down. Or really, trying to
do any kind of maintenance work. And guess what happens? More crazy patches,
probably written in an entirely different style! So now there are $n+1$
different styles in that script, and my successor is going to be even more
frustrated with me than I am with my predecessors.
On the flip side, it's been a great education on the difference between
maintaining code for your own use and code in an organization...
------
stcredzero
_How does a language win? By being compelling enough to be used for new
things. It 's not solely a technical concern; it's a concern of the language
community and ecosystem._
One of the most valuable 4 sentence paragraphs I've read from an HN post in
awhile. (Perhaps 3, but the semicolon really separates 2 sentences.)
~~~
twic
The semicolon separates two independent clauses, but they constitute a single
sentence.
When we're thinking about language, clauses are probably a better atomic unit
than sentences; clauses are a semantic unit, and sentences are really just a
syntactic packaging format for some number of clauses. Just like we should be
counting expressions (or something) rather than lines of code.
~~~
stcredzero
I'll take that comment as a parody?
~~~
twic
Sure, whatever you like.
~~~
stcredzero
Well played!
------
dmckeon
As a Perl and Modern/PBP fan, I have to suggest that CPAN has become a poorer
resource over time:
> _In the olden days, you could expect to find a Perl module for most anything
> you wanted to do_
but also:
_Having 57 modules all called Sort will not make life easy for anyone (though
having 23 called Sort::Quick is only marginally better_
and it seems that every time I look for a useful module on CPAN I find myself
in a _twisty little maze of packages, all different._
TIMTOWTDI, yes, but which one (or several) of the available modules will have
a usable combination of convenient utility and mutual compatibility? Over
time, CPAN has started to feel like the house of someone who rescues animals,
but cannot let go of any of them.
~~~
davewood
There are a few things to consider when trying to pick a good/the best module
for a problem.
\- ask in irc.perl.org. it is very likely to get pointers from very
experienced people.
\- use metacpan.org and pay attention to the votes/likes it got. and read the
reviews.
\- each and every CPAN module is automatically tested. look at the stats to
weed out problematic modules.
\- check out the release frequency and when the last release occurred.
\- read the Changes file
\- take a look at the tests for the module, is it well tested? are there alot
of tests?
If you are past a certain point in your life as a Perl programmer this comes
very natural and does not take alot of time.
~~~
liotier
I agree, but naive new Perl users might benefit from some prominent showcasing
of well-known good modules or maybe comparison charts between modules in the
same functional niche... Maybe that is a subject better left to Perl bloggers
rather than to the neutral CPAN, but first contact with Perl is sometimes an
embarrassment of riches.
Anyway, I love the CPAN - whatever I imagine myself wanting to do, five people
have done it already !
~~~
phaylon
Well, MetaCPAN has a leaderboard of modules, but it could be a bit more
prominent:
[https://metacpan.org/favorite/leaderboard](https://metacpan.org/favorite/leaderboard)
------
schmonz
I recently spent 4.5 years at a big bank developing identity-management tools.
They were written in Perl. The first thing I did was screw up in production:
[http://www.schmonz.com/2014/06/01/tdd-in-
context-1-keeping-m...](http://www.schmonz.com/2014/06/01/tdd-in-
context-1-keeping-my-job)
So I started carefully making the code testable, then gradually adding tests
and refactoring under them, and gradually adopting and taking advantage of
Moose, shipping every month all the while. There was never a second screwup.
(Will big banks keep choosing Perl for new projects? Yes, for a long time.
It's firmly entrenched. It didn't win, but it'll probably never lose either.)
Would I choose Perl for a new project? That depends. For programmers with
taste, discernment, and discipline, Perl-the-language + Perl-the-CPAN can be
incredibly and sustainably productive. For other programmers, it's enough rope
to quickly cut off bloodflow to your foot, which you can then use Perl to
amputate.
In other words, Perl is at the high end of the risk/reward curve. If I could
mitigate the risk -- say, by convincing myself that I'll always be in a
position to hire great programmers or nobody -- then I'd absolutely want the
reward of developing a new system in Perl.
------
atmosx
I think the article is a little bit harsh on Perl. Ruby (1995) and Python
(1993) wouldn't probably exist without Perl (1987). Hence IMHO it's just a
sort of evolution, nothing more. The other two languages _learned_ from Perl's
mistakes and were _better designed_.
------
winter_blue
At the end of the article, he/she says "the Swift programming language has
been public for less than a week and already has more users than Perl 6, and
_Swift is entirely built on technologies which have been invented since the
Perl 6 announcement_ ".
That's simply false; anyone who's been in the programming languages field for
a while knows that...
~~~
aaronbrethorst
I interpreted that as 'Perl 6 dates back to 2000, while LLVM (upon which Swift
is built) dates back to slightly later in the year in 2000.' (although, to be
fair, the LLVM website first appeared in 2002.)
------
narrator
I always check on indeed.com to confirm the popularity of things. It looks
like Python just broke past Perl on absolute job posting numbers.
[http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=+perl+developer%2Cpython+d...](http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=+perl+developer%2Cpython+developer&l=)
------
raiph
The domain outspeaking.com is owned by chromatic's company.
Afaict chromatic was the first to promote the article with a tweet shortly
after it was published and shortly before it appeared here on HN and reddit.
When someone noted this connection on reddit and said they thought chromatic
wrote it his response was "I'm not the only person with access to the server.
Anonymous wrote that article."
[http://www.reddit.com/r/perl/comments/27o6h5/why_perl_didnt_...](http://www.reddit.com/r/perl/comments/27o6h5/why_perl_didnt_win/ci32gof)
Even if it's not chromatic (I think it is), is it not obvious that the OP
article is designed to garner inbound links/views (and sell books) rather than
provide a balanced picture? Consider the juxtaposition of the deceitful title
and well written content. Do you see what the author did there?
~~~
kbenson
My understanding is that chromatic is not the only person at that company that
knows Perl, not that has had experience with Perl 6 and/or Parrot. I think
it's appropriate to judge the article on it's merits and how well it covers
the issue, not the specific views of people that may be associated with it.
Truth be told, I was thinking while reading it that it sounded quite a bit
like chromatic but with tones down criticism, and said as much to a friend I
fowarded it to. I wrote this "Sounds a lot like chromatic when he was
disillusioned, but not yet bitter. Which is to say harsh, but definitely
constructive." That it's from the company he's involved in doesn't surprise
me. If he wrote it and wants to keep it as aonymous, I think that's perfectly
acceptable. If someone else there wrote it, that wouldn't surprise me either;
I doubt all of his thoughts and opinions happen in a vacuum.
------
alien3d
if ain't php ,think will stick to perl.. first web base language learn..
~~~
alien3d
why down vote,since it my first web base language in 2001. By that time,php is
new and .net is version 1. When i got visual studio dvd,my pc run slow. So i
moved to php and stick till now.
------
vampirechicken
I never understand the apparent glee with which people perform premature post-
mortems on Perl.
You never really see people declaring any other language moribund, and then
kicking it a couple of times for fun.
I don't see the point?
------
spacemanmatt
No language syntax causes me higher cognitive dissonance than perl. I just
find it fugly.
------
pnathan
Another perspective: Perl lost because the culture of internet software
development moved away from hackers who grokked humor and cleverness towards
team-driven business application developers who preferred synergistic
framework solutions.
------
oscargrouch
Whenever i read perl code, i feel somebody is cursing me through the source
code
------
lovelyday
Write once, read never.
~~~
Roboprog
Speak for yourself! (or maybe, for annoying coworkers???)
It's certainly possible to write functions (subs) with comments about what
they do, and use meaningful variable names. The built-in syntax/operators do
require some study, though.
For the "Enterprise!" developer pool, there's Java. The 500 line methods are
still hard to slog through, though. Too many never got the note about a
"business logic layer" and abstraction, and just shove all the details in-
line. In which case, the language of mandate doesn't matter much.
~~~
EdwardDiego
> For the "Enterprise!" developer pool, there's Java. The 500 line methods are
> still hard to slog through, though.
Great straw-man there. I didn't realise that javac required 500 line methods
before compilation.
> In which case, the language of mandate doesn't matter much.
It's a lot easier to pass two collections to a method in Java than to a sub in
Perl.
~~~
Roboprog
\--- Java ---
List <Integer> aList = Arrays.asList( new int [] { 1, 3, 5 }); // probably
missing some more type stuff in <>
Map <String, String> aMap = new HashMap <String, String> ();
aMap.put( "name", "Joe");
aMap.put( "ID", "42"); // I need to check if Java 8 has map literals a la
Groovy...
doSomething( aList, aMap);
...
void doSomething( List <Integer> aList, Map <String, String> aMap) {
System.out.println( "First: " \+ aList.get( 0) + ", Name: " \+ aMap.get(
"name") );
}
\--- Perl ---
&do_something( [ 1, 3, 5 ], { 'name' => 'Joe', 'ID' => '42 });
...
sub do_something {
my( $list_ref, $hash_ref) = @_;
printf "First: %d, Name: %s\n", ${ $list_ref }[ 0 ], ${ $hash_ref }{ 'name' };
}
\------
I'm not seeing _that_ much of a difference in parameter passing, other than
the explicit reference/dereference syntax.
Of course Java doesn't _require_ 500 line methods. But the bondage and
discipline imposed is independent of whether or not readable code will be
produced.
I actually _like_ strongly typed languages for larger programs, but prefer
something more fast and loose for smaller ones. TMTOWTDI!
~~~
EdwardDiego
> List <Integer> aList = Arrays.asList( new int [] { 1, 3, 5 });
You can drop the inner array, asList takes variable number of arguments.
> // I need to check if Java 8 has map literals a la Groovy...
Sadly not, IIRC they've backed off from literals towards a Guava style static
factory methods, which I'm not thrilled about.
> I'm not seeing that much of a difference in parameter passing, other than
> the explicit reference/dereference syntax.
So let's say I'm a newbie Perl developer just exploring subs.
sub stuff {
my ($a, $b) = @_;
print "$a and $b\n";
}
my $a = 1;
my $b = 2;
stuff($a, $b);
It works! Hurrah. Feeling clever, I move onto collections.
sub stuff {
my (@a, %b) = @_;
print "$a[0] and $b{A}\n";
}
my @a = (1);
my %b = (A => 2);
stuff(@a, %b);
And it doesn't work at all. @a has some additional values, and %b is undef.
So yes, let's use references.
sub stuff {
my ($a, $b) = @_;
print "${$a}[0] and ${$b}{A}\n";
}
my @a = (1);
my %b = (A => 2);
stuff(\@a, \%b);
Except now, I have two ways of working with Perl's collections, two separate
sets of sigils, and all because I wanted to pass two collections into a
function and Perl treats function arguments as a collection, and Perl
implicitly flattens collections.
The difference _I_ see, as a Perl newbie only working with it out of
necessity, is that having (because you need it because of earlier design
choices) more than one way of operating on data structures, violates the
principle of least surprise.
~~~
__david__
> Except now, I have two ways of working with Perl's collections, two separate
> sets of sigils, and all because I wanted to pass two collections into a
> function and Perl treats function arguments as a collection, and Perl
> implicitly flattens collections.
It's not really two sets of sigils, it's two concepts: "collection", and
"pointer to collection". I guess coming from C that didn't bother me too
much—once it sunk that references were just (safe) pointers, using them works
almost exactly the same:
int a = 1, *b=&a, **c=&b, ***d=&c;
printf("%d %d %d %d\n", a, *b, **c, ***d);
my $a = 1; my $b=\$a; my $c=\$b; my $d=\$c;
printf("%d %d %d %d\n", $a, $$b, $$$c, $$$$d);
Perl even stole C's pointer syntax to make working with collections nice:
my $a = [1,2,3];
printf("%d\n", $a->[0]);
~~~
EdwardDiego
> it's two concepts: "collection", and "pointer to collection". I guess coming
> from C that didn't bother me too much
Fair point. I guess what bugs me is that you can use collections merrily
without references until you want to pass more than one collection to a
function - or create a collection that isn't flattened - at which point you
have no choice.
------
mantrax5
In one of the WWDC sessions an Apple engineer was adamant one should never
choose terseness over clarity, because every line of code is written once by
one person, but read many times by many people.
And funny enough Objective-C is taking this quite seriously, being a very
verbose language (the new Swift language also keep the verbose method names,
enums and properties).
While Perl is exactly the opposite. There's a reason people jokingly call it a
write-only language.
It has real implication on its usage. You use Perl for one-off scripts you
intend to forget and maybe delete after you run them a few times.
While CPAN happened, I wonder how much Perl was an obstacle in multiple people
joining to work on a single library (versus multiple people just downloading
it and using it, big difference).
~~~
mst
Most of the modern perl ecosystem is libraries built by substantial teams -
it's a lot different now than a decade or so ago.
The Modern Perl dialect is basically what came out of the new wave of CPAN
(Enlightened Perl) movement which is all about using perl's flexibility in a
way that scales to larger teams.
Sadly, every attempt to explain this to people not already writing it results
in a deluge of 'write-only' jokes and nobody bothering to actually look at the
code, so while the technical capacity is there, the pop culture nature of
programming language choice means people generally never realise.
~~~
mantrax5
Perl's brand is damaged. No amount of explaining fixes a broken brand.
The best that can probably be done is to create a new language which is, say,
a clean subset of Perl 6 and call it something new, focusing the message on
how readable and intuitive it is.
------
danbmil99
There are so many snarky things to say, but my mother taught me to never speak
ill of the dead.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The amazing intelligence of crows [video] - critic
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/joshua_klein_on_the_intelligence_of_crows.html
======
CalmQuiet
Joshua Klein makes a _hot_ presentation. And shows how one can turn an
intellectual obsession into a potent scientific/societal contribution.
The crow-intelligence demo is also a great rebuttal to those who complain that
scientific experimentation is necessarily the /enemy/ of nature or of species
preservation.
This video might also serve well to encourage school kids to consider science
careers.
------
timf
Nice talk, I wish there was more time at the end for him to talk about his
ideas for mutually beneficial "arrangements" like the one idea of crows
picking up trash after events etc.
~~~
amoeba
Agreed. This has serious implications and I wonder if there are any other
potential systems to be tapped.
Dolphins cleaning up the oceans?
~~~
jyothi
Why are we humans always obsessed with figuring out how another living or non-
living being can be leveraged for our benefit only. Why can't we just give
them their space and live in 'mutual harmony' without expecting a favor. It is
remarkable to provide crows with a way to get food.
But why do we have to train them to clean garbage? Can we know if they would
really want to do it? Would that define their life, their purpose of
existence? Are we just aiming at a crooked adoption of "survival of the
fittest (read fit == helpful for human existence)"?
Imagine what would have happened if animals were as evil as humans.
~~~
tomjen
The animals are free to find other sources of food, if they so desire. This is
exploitation of the animals only to the extend that you don't believe in free
will.
~~~
rw
Free will is a difficult position to defend nowadays. If free will is
physical, you have to explain away determinism and causality. If free will is
supernatural, we have to go meta with the discussion and figure out why you
believe in the nonphysical.
------
awt
I would like to see some sort of website with information on how everyone can
use these techniques locally, and tools share their experiences. As Joshua
said, crows are everywhere. Anyone could do this. It seems like a relatively
inexpensive hobby.
~~~
peregrine
I used to have crows around my house alot and I'd try to trap them or shoot
them with my bbgun or chase them or surprise them. But you can't they are too
smart, looking back on it they were probably just playing with me. I've always
been fascinated by them. A site like that would be great.
------
amix
My parents have an African Grey parrot Benny and his intelligence is simply
amazing. First, he can talk sentences and he mimics my mom pretty good.
Second, he can connect sentences to meaning, so for example, when I enter the
room he'll greet me, when I leave the room he'll say goodbye. If he's hungry
he'll also tell you that (actually, he is hungry most of the time :)) And I
think that crows have a similar intelligence level like African Greys, so
their potential is really huge.
------
critic
What was amazing in the video to me was that, apparently, crows are to other
birds and animals of their (brain) size, what humans are to other primates and
mammals: "they stick around and figure things out".
------
pkrumins
makes me want train crows as well.
------
xenophanes
Crow are not more intelligent than orcs in warcraft 3 which can, for example,
patrol an area and autonomously engage any enemies that come near.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Plastic Injection Molding (2015) [video] - jstimpfle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMjtmsr3CqA
======
Noumenon72
I operated a line like this for seven years before becoming a programmer,
except that we extruded continuous paper-thin sheets of plastic for people to
print signs on. That was a more skilled process, I guess; injection molders I
talked to often had one person monitoring multiple machines.
My plant was in Wisconsin but wasn't heated during the winter when the lines
were running. Melting plastic takes so much heat that we were the main
electricity consumer in my town.
Because there isn't a check ring in place while the screw is turning, plastic
is always trying to slip backwards over the flights of the screw. You have not
just heater bands around the barrel, but also cooling water, which makes the
plastic less melty so the flights can push it forward without slipping back.
The more recycled material you use, generally the cooler you need the barrel
because those little flakes melt faster and slip more than virgin pellets.
The many challenges of fighting reality to get your plastic to come out
correctly mixed and without bubbles build a lot more character than similar
paying jobs like driving a forklift. Facing the same problems repeatedly
helped me develop the quick-access note system I still use for debugging and
syntax. I wouldn't be half the programmer I am without the life skills from
manufacturing. The only problem with being a line operator was that most
permanently solvable problems have been engineered out already, so being
clever and organized about solving things didn't produce nearly as much value
for the plastic factory as it does now that I'm a programmer.
~~~
klausnrooster
I'd like to hear more about your quick-access note system.
~~~
Noumenon72
In the plastic factory, which had zero wireless access because it had metal
walls and was basically a Faraday cage, I kept paper notes in my shirt pocket.
At first I just wrote down stuff as I learned it: "when the plastic pellets
won't feed do this. Here are tips for feeding the trim grinder. Here's what
this alarm code means."
The amount of helpful stuff grew fast and I had to keep erasing my notebook
and reorganizing it to find things. Settings were organized by machine number,
defects by symptom, job changes as a checklist, alarm responses as a
flowchart. (You only had 3 minutes before your line would shut down when the
'out-of-pellets' alarm went off, so you had to consider only solutions that
might work).
The machine produces a half-ton of plastic every hour so my lookups had to get
more and more efficient. Every second you spend looking stuff up means more
plastic you have to pick up and throw in the scrap box. I switched to a Word
document I could print out and bring with me. I used Word's four levels of
headings and the "Generate Table of Contents" feature so I could find the
exact page with my issue in seconds. I kept the most important six pages
folded up in my front pocket for immediate access. Things like the stacking
table ceasing to lower so that the plastic would jam up within minutes.
Every day when you make plastic you fail and waste money, it's very
challenging. The consequences are much more tangible than in programming --
orders don't get on trucks, people have to roll up hundreds of pounds of
plastic off the floor, the line goes down and you have to spend an hour
sweating to get it back up again. So every day I fixed my notebook so that
day's timewasters would have been solved faster. Write down how to fix things
without calling maintenance, record the solution that worked and not the five
that didn't, add a step to a checklist.
So what this did that carries over to programming is it makes you start using
your notes as an extension of your memory. There were fixes I wouldn't use for
months but could instantly access by the situation (even though I didn't have
Ctrl+F). Because of the speed of the lookup, I wouldn't even bother
remembering these things at all, which gave me more working memory.
Now I have 280,000 words of notes about programming, but it's not like college
note-taking where you'd have to skim pages and pages to find what you need.
There's a Python.docx, Concurrency.docx, Testing.docx. It's all organized by
headers like "Design patterns", "refactoring conditionals", "String.format
expression syntax". That way if I can't remember exactly what I wrote to
Ctrl+F, I can still get there very fast -- and see all the other related notes
beside it.
They're all on AutoHotKeys so that I can just Ctrl+Alt+D to open
"debugging.docx" and search "ConcurrentModificationException" and see exactly
what the typical errors I make are that cause this exception and how I solved
them last time.
In the end, just like I was able to move to any line in the factory and run it
as familiarly as if I had been there for months, I can move from writing a
context manager in Python to doing conditional inserts in SQL and recover all
the expertise I ever had in under a minute. It's great at my job which is full
stack from Bash to Javascript.
The same approach helped me revitalize our support wiki. Walls of text became
"if this, click to expand. If that, go to page X". Related issues got stored
together so you can go up the hierarchy a level if one approach fails and try
others. Information got moved to right when you need it instead of buried on
some other page.
I feel like people who use Confluence and text notes to expand their quick-
access memory like this are kind of "digital-ready" \-- it's like our brain is
expandable with an SD card slot that others don't have. Good notes let you
crystallize a bit of knowledge every day so you have more room to learn
something new the next day.
~~~
klausnrooster
Thanks for that great exposition. I tried a similar approach in a TiddlyWiki
but when it got larger it was slow and required more and more fiddling. Then
as an exercise in how to implement tagging using SQLite and TCL (then Python
2.7, then REBOL, then Python 3.5), a made a command-line thing that I've
relied on for about 8 years now (REBOL FTW). I carry it around on a USB stick.
Thought of porting it in a way I could use it from my phone but I'll never get
around to it - I'm not a developer in the sense you guys are so it would take
me months. As a further exercise I cloned that tool in an MS-Access form. I
use that version at work. I put everything in it and it has been a huge help -
I agree with your SD card slot analogy. Coincidentally I work at a compounder
of plastic pellets for automotive use. We mold for testing tensile, etc, so I
can appreciate what you were up against. I may steal from you and partition my
tools topically (separate tables).
~~~
Noumenon72
Android uses SQLite so you're partway there. The USB stick is a good idea
because sometimes I read an article about Python at home and have been
emailing it to work.
------
lopmotr
I once built a very simple one in my backyard using a shock absorber from a
car as the barrel, which just worked like a syringe with no screw. It was
driven by a threaded rod powered by an electric drill. The heater was a spiral
stove element or a hot-air paint stripper or both - I forget which. The mold
was a stack of aluminium plates that I'd cut with hand tools and bolted
together. It was very fiddly to operate but worth the experience!
Driving a car without shock absorbers is also a real experience! With
alternating braking and accelerating, you can build up an oscillation that's
big enough to bounce the wheels off the ground with almost no forward speed.
------
gnicholas
Perfect for curious toddlers. My daughter is always asking to watch videos of
how things are made, and this video has a great mix of very simple takeaways
(chairs and legos are made out of plastic) and much more complicated concepts
that she can be exposed to and grow to understand (the way screws work, how
the runners attach).
And now she can run around the house finding the ejector pin witness marks on
everything.
~~~
trumped
watch How It's Made[1], this one is probably not my favorite:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NzUm7UEEIY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NzUm7UEEIY)
1\.
[https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWBkudOTaVbvkCBc0pyZFMA](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWBkudOTaVbvkCBc0pyZFMA)
~~~
viggity
I would have How It's Made on constantly in the background if I could stream
more than the 3 most recent seasons on hulu. I love that show, but 3 seasons
isn't near enough.
------
Judgmentality
This is by far my favorite video of his:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUhisi2FBuw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUhisi2FBuw)
~~~
jcims
Here's the How It's Made version -
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7Y0zAzoggY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7Y0zAzoggY)
Aluminum baseball bats have a similar manufacturing method -
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=didmRLz4vfU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=didmRLz4vfU)
------
beautifulfreak
The book, Serendipity: Accidental Discoveries in Science, claims that some
early plastic billiard balls were made of nitrocellulose and sometimes
exploded. I suppose Hyatt's celluloid billiard balls were the nonexplosive
kind. [https://www.amazon.com/Serendipity-Accidental-Discoveries-
Ro...](https://www.amazon.com/Serendipity-Accidental-Discoveries-Royston-
Roberts/dp/0471602035)
~~~
evgen
Fun history there and if you ever get a chance to watch it, there is a nice
episode of Connections ('Countdown', [https://archive.org/details/james-burke-
connections_s01e09](https://archive.org/details/james-burke-
connections_s01e09)) that uses this as a key point for one of Burke's nice
random walks through the history of technology. Nitrocellulose was initially a
failure as an explosive, but when mixed with a few other things it was used to
replace the ivory in billiard balls as hunters were decimating the elephant
populations. Nitrocellulose ended up being the base for smokeless gunpowder
that had a huge impact on guns and cannon later in history, but the other big
thing it was used for was early film stock. One source of so many fires in
theaters (and film storage vaults at studios) in the early 20th century was
due to this particular type of film stock.
------
giarc
Those are incredibly well done videos. Without realizing it, I just spent 30
minutes watching engineering videos. They are done in a way that anyone could
understand.
~~~
jcims
I wish he would Patreon up or something so this could be a full time job. He
does an amazing job of making a variety of engineering disciplines accessible
to the layman.
~~~
Judgmentality
Admittedly I don't know for sure, but I suspect he enjoys his profession as a
university professor.
------
KamiCrit
I still can't believe some tool & die maker machined a die large enough to
house an entire plastic lawn chair.
~~~
Noumenon72
At my job, we extruded plastic sheets, so we had dies which were 84 inches
wide with an opening of 0.020 inches. It's quite a challenge to get the
plastic to spread evenly from the barrel opening all across that width like a
river delta. There are two flexible lips inside, you can supply more heat to
individual die zones to make it meltier, and at the very edges you stretch the
plastic out a little so that several inches of the die end up contributing to
one inch of the finished sheet.
~~~
countzeroasl
The other option that is commonly used is using a mold with an internal
manifold to heat the plastic, which is injected through heated tips or
pneumatic/hydraulic valve gates. This shortens the space on the part such that
the flow length of the plastic will be sufficient to fill the part, where with
a single gate, it may not due to the part thickness and thermodynamic freeze.
------
ggambetta
This looks super fun! What's the viability of doing this at an artisanal scale
in the kitchen? E.g carving a mold out of something, melting plastic in the
hob, and pouring it into the mold?
I remember as a kid my dad once got some sort of plastic that you made by
mixing two liquids (they were very liquid, so not epoxy), and I made molds of
things out of putty (or clay?) and then "copied" them with the plastic. Any
idea of what this room-temperature binary-plastic could be?
~~~
Doxin
Casting epoxy is a thing that exists, but the chemicals involved should most
definitely be kept away from the skin until after they have cured.
~~~
ggambetta
So it's "casting epoxy", thank you :)
------
le-mark
I've had a project in mind for several years now that would be ideal for
injection molding plastic parts, the only problem is a $10-20k in mold
creation would take a long time to pay off and become profitable for a niche
product (lego related for example). Does anyone have experience doing this?
~~~
catherd
I run a contract manufacturing service in China. We mostly work with US
companies bringing new products to market. I'm a little uncertain what you're
asking, but my email is in my profile. In general, I can say that individuals
trying to start anything hardware related almost universally run into funding
problems before they finish (or their idea was just not what the market
wanted).
My usual recommendation to people trying to start something hardware related
is to do as much as you can in the beginning to make "sales", with sales being
defined as whatever you can get that proves someone would actually pay you
money for your widget. Prove you have a market before you pay for expensive
tooling. That process can vary, but crowdfunding is one example.
Some rough rules of thumb if all you are interested in is cash outlay:
need 2 parts: 3D print or CNC
need 10 parts: silicone mold or CNC
need 200+ parts: injection mold
If lead time to first part, part uniformity, or uncertainty about design
changes are factors that might also swing you toward or away from injection
molding.
For injection mold tools, assuming the part has a normal level of complexity:
2cm cube: ~$3k, 5 weeks to first shot
15cm x 5cm x 2cm: ~$4k, 5 weeks to first shot
25cm x 15cm x 5cm: ~$8k 8 weeks to first shot
First shot means the first time the tool is tested to make samples. Generally
there is a sample approval and testing process you have to go through before
any remaining tweaks are made + the final mold texture or polish is added. I
find the total time has more to do with how organized and diligent the client
is in responding, but assuming nobody drags their feet we generally can be
production ready in another 2 weeks or so.
We only work with production tooling (hard steel, lasts a long time). From
checking around, if you use aluminum tooling or other "cheap" fast turn
prototyping stuff the price doesn't seem to be any less, and in many cases is
more. Tooling made in America is usually significantly more... maybe 1.3 - 3x
more.
~~~
countzeroasl
As an engineering manager that does these types of projects for a living, I
would be happy to chat with anyone who is interested in the actual process,
design/manufacturing issues, or rough costs/timeline of this type of project.
------
countzeroasl
I am an engineering manager for a plant that does contract manufacturing and
specializes in injection molding. I'm happy to answer any questions someone
might have about this process, plants that utilize it, or design/manufacturing
limitations of it.
------
saagarjha
> Likely the device you're watching this on has injection molded parts; you
> should be able to find ejector pin witness marks and parting lines.
I'm not seeing these on my MacBook. Is that because the parts are not
injection molded, or is it because these features have been sanded off or done
in a clever way so that it's not easily visible?
~~~
NickNameNick
The body of your MacBook is cnc machined, and bead-blast finished. There may
be some markings from the original casting, but they'll be on the inside. All
the ejector pin marks on the keyboard keys should be on the inside.
~~~
xyzzy_plugh
On top of that, Apple has some of _the_ most advanced manufacturing technology
on the planet. They're continuously a couple years ahead of everyone else for
anything similar to their product line, especially around molding processes.
If a new, better process hits the market, Apple often snaps them up.
The original unibody aluminum Apple TV remote is a masterpiece.
A lifetime ago, we were working with Foxconn and a colleague managed to sneak
onto an Apple floor and take a look at some of their tools -- he was
gobsmacked at what they were capable of. The stuff of industrial design
engineers' dreams.
------
Animats
That's a great talk and animation.
Amusingly, the cheap plastic resin chair shown prominently in the video
probably isn't injection-molded. Those are usually formed from a flat sheet.
~~~
naikrovek
He literally shows tooling marks from the injection molding process on the
chair...
~~~
Animats
Yes, that one's not from a sheet; it just looks similar to the cheaper ones
that are.
------
rdiddly
The visuals are good enough to watch this without sound... Always a high
benchmark for visual aids.
------
trumped
didnt injection molding startup the industrial revolution?
~~~
onesun
No, the steam engine started the industrial revolution.
------
kennywinker
It’s 2018 - ceeating a product from new plastic is probably morally
indefensible.
This guy has open source plans for garage-scale plastic recycling machines. If
you’re interested in alternatives to new plastic from china
[https://preciousplastic.com](https://preciousplastic.com)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Users report duplicate, dummy Facebook accounts in PH - tim_sw
https://www.rappler.com/nation/263121-users-report-duplicate-facebook-dummy-accounts-philippines
======
skytreader
This is even more alarming as:
1\. the dummy accounts are spotted mere days after mass protests against a
controversial (to say the least) Anti-Terror Bill was passed, only awaiting
the president's signature for it to become law.
2\. said bill allows law-enforcement to arrest and detain people on mere
suspicion of being involved in vaguely-defined "terrorist activities".
Here's a supplementary article:
[https://www.rappler.com/nation/263156-lawmakers-fear-fake-
fa...](https://www.rappler.com/nation/263156-lawmakers-fear-fake-facebook-
accounts-online-tanim-ebidensiya)
Note: "tanim ebidensiya" roughly translates to "planted evidence". Also
noteworthy is that a few days ago the UN released a report on Rodrigo
Duterte's bloody and controversial drug war, revealing that the same evidence
(a gun) was found in multiple cases where a drug suspect was killed. This
"evidence" that the suspect carried a gun is used to bolster a self-defense
narrative the cops use to rationalize the outcome of their operation.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Bing sees things differently - koops
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3604/3585051300_d23a37a32e_o.png
======
RiderOfGiraffes
I saw this 8 hours ago via this link:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=635819>
It took me ages to see what the point was, but when I did I was unsurprised.
Perhaps that's a comment on my expectations and world-view, rather than on the
actual content.
I wonder how they get these different results. Do they deliberately massage
the results? Do they hand pick the searching? Or is it something else.
Answers on a postcard ... (now _there's_ a web-app waiting to happen)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The lottery is a tax, an inefficient, regressive, and exploitative tax - teslacar
http://metrocosm.com/state-lotteries-high-cost-low-return-and-absurdly-dishonest/
======
kwillets
A tax on mathematical illiteracy.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Disney's Bob Iger walked away from a Twitter purchase because of “nastiness” - laurex
https://qz.com/1713764/disneys-bob-iger-walked-away-from-a-twitter-purchase-because-of-nastiness/
======
buboard
Thank fuck
------
kylek
>> Iger cited the possibility that toxic dimensions of the Twitter experience
could hurt Disney’s family focused brand
Wow, Disney showing some actual integrity. Color me surprised.
~~~
smacktoward
I'm not sure that decision required integrity as much as it did understanding
Disney's place in the market. Disney makes big, uncontroversial, _safe_ mass-
market entertainment products for the broadest possible audiences. Twitter is
the exact opposite of all those things: it's a product covered in sharp edges
that appeals to a relatively small but enthusiastic-slash-rabid niche. Disney
would consider it a failure if a group of people walked out of one of their
movies or theme parks yelling at each other, but Twitter's whole engagement
strategy is based on pitting its users against each other. It's the least
Disney-like thing you could imagine.
The amazing thing isn't that the acquisition eventually fell apart, it's that
it got as far as it did.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Less Lag, More Frag - Eset Tee Shirt - help me get one please - teksquisite
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150202013805908&set=a.10150158319155908.331653.56844830907&theater
======
teksquisite
They are saying that it is NOT for sale. They "might" have a contest because I
have twittered and FB'd about wanting it. I have to have it. Hacker News
please help me get one!
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
MMO 2D Competitive Space Action Clone of Cosmic Rift - esuen
I've created a clone of 'Cosmic Rift' called 'Astral Rift'. It is played in the browser and made with Javascript, NodeJS and JoyJS.<p>The codebase and the gameplay instructions are here https://github.com/esuen/AstralRift.<p>The game is playable here http://www.astralrift.com.<p>Please try it out and give me feedback.
======
JesseAldridge
Some notes:
Add stars to the background for orientation.
Make the ships a lot easier to control.
I escaped the arena by moving to the bottom-left corner and holding down.
Make the bullets move faster.
Add instructions; just "shift = mine; z = shoot; etc."
I didn't understand the life system. I guess getting hit makes you lose
energy, but so does shooting? I shot a guy a bunch of times but nothing seemed
to happen. Maybe add more feedback when you hit somebody?
Right now it's not very fun.
~~~
esuen
I'll be adding stars in the background soon.
Could you elaborate more on why the current controls are difficult? What could
make it easier?
Yes, there is a couple bugs with escaping the arena. I may make the bullets
faster.
Yeah, good point on adding instructions.
The life system is this: you're energy is both depleted when you are hit or
use a weapon.
More special weapons and features added later will add to the enjoyment of
this game.
~~~
JesseAldridge
I think more friction would make the controls easier. Right now it feels like
you're sliding on ice.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Head & Shoulders has a dirty secret - arunitc
http://dirtysecret.greenpeace.org/
======
panarky
Head & Shoulders doesn't appear to contain any palm oil, at least according to
the product's Material Safety Data Sheet.
[http://www.pg.com/productsafety/msds/beauty_care/haircare/he...](http://www.pg.com/productsafety/msds/beauty_care/haircare/head_and_shoulders/Head_and_Shoulders_Clinical_Strength_Shampoo_%2895804498%29.pdf)
~~~
calciphus
You can't let facts get in the way of manufactured outrage!
------
billyjobob
The worst 'secret' of Head & Shoulders is that it doesn't work.
------
Koldark
It wouldn't be a secret ingredient if it was listed somewhere. :-P
------
kjs3
I wanted tread the article, but apparently not only can they not get facts
straight, their shitty dev team can't present the information without enabling
javascript. So...no thanks.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
This startup thinks devs should get paid for their open source projects - ariehkovler
https://techcrunch.com/2019/12/10/xscode-launches-subscription-platform-to-monetize-open-source-projects/
======
helad
About time! I Hope the OSS community and companies who use open source
projects will embrace this initiative.
------
jascii
25% for payment processing?
Maybe the title should be changed to: "This startup thinks they should get
paid for your open source projects"
~~~
maximumOS
it's an industry-standard... UpWork.. Fiverr...
~~~
jascii
No personal experience, but aren't those at least supposed to put you in
contact with potential clients? I'm having a hard time finding any value added
in this service over what my bank already offers me for free.
------
maximumOS
amazing!
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Subsets and Splits