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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyZyHHexx7s	4,101	oyZyHHexx7s	2022-12-07 00:00:00	even though I was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off I couldn't get people to go with me I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars [Music] it's great to have you back David obviously we've met before but for anyone who doesn't know who you are for new listeners or new viewers could you give us a brief introduction to what you are famous for well I suppose uh most well known for uh having escaped to prison in Thailand in Bangkok uh the biggest one they have there clong Prim it uh wasn't something I did frivolously I was going to be executed within a couple of weeks so it seemed like a good time to leave okay now um we're going to get into that in a bit more detail but one thing that I remember about you from last time is you're the most incredible talker and we took away the inter the initial interview we've done with you and ended up having to make it into two long episodes because you have a lot of different very colorful uh experiences so do forgive me if I Jimmy us through oh no I can understand that I mean the only place I never talk is in the police station I always like some of my uh work colleagues took um what was it one slap to get them talking but five to shut them up oh okay so let's go right back to the beginning um you were born in the UK and then I believe you emigrated to Australia well um it was all a family thing yes I was born in basewater in London I spent the first few years of my life then uh there but my parents broke up divorced and I went with my mother to Australia with my older sister so I don't have any really very early memories of London apart from some old eight millimeter movie footage of me learning to walk in Hyde Park my dad was waving a five pound note in front of my face and I was making every effort to grab it I continued that behavior for many many years afterwards returned to Australia um finished some schooling um got really contrasting jobs I worked in an adult Agency for a while um but also before that I was got a job in a cinema now it was the and under literally an underground place but it was there that I got introduced to a bunch of crooks um some of the girls there had boyfriends that I used to run down with um strange boxes or bits of money or fur coats and then wink at me bolt out the back door pursued by often policemen undercover ones of course whom we'd misdirect somewhere but that Circle they were um safe crackers and they really didn't trust Outsiders and didn't much like the sound of me but because of I demonstrated a couple of things by being look everybody was really very anti-authority then I I don't mean hostile but for people now they they wouldn't have experienced that in the uh late 60s 70s we were so snotty and arrogant we really thought we were going to change the world and that um the laws were all nothing and the way to change them was to break them well that was the kind of vanity we had so um when I got to know the safe crackers uh better there was something really interesting I mean I didn't like the idea you know stealing things seemed a bit tacky but on the other hand they kind of all needed the money from the from their backgrounds and everything but that wasn't so much the the interest it was the technicalities of getting into these things okay um they used to drill through the top um having anchored it with the drill with clamps and and put a kind of little lens inside a cystoscope used in medicine and watch the the wheels turning around this is the old kind of old-fashioned Hollywood style it was yeah and um behind the safe were three discs and you had to line them up and they'd once they got in they'd take the door with them so that the opposition the safe makers wouldn't know how they'd got in and it was a a constant battle between the manufacturers and them because they've come across new safes which had Special Metals in it that was mixed like a a crunchy nut bar very hard metals very soft ones so the drill bit would slip on them snap and you got a sense that this was almost like a game where um they would try something then try to beat them and they were very loyal to each other um they they never spoke out of school as it were um when I got involved with them I'd only have to if I had trouble I don't have to make one phone call and people would appear out of nowhere and I thought yeah this this is kind of better than the treacherous boys school that I I grew up in and how old were you at this point um 19 years old 19. so were you thinking you were making a conscious decision to move into illegal activities or at that point in time and at that point in the world did it feel like more of a kind of a bit of roguish fun would you say I was drawn to it anyway because it was interesting and um I didn't really have a lot of fear I think sometimes what we do or don't do is depending on how scary it seems yeah agreed um I was born with a low resting heart rate as they say you know if it's below 70 you're a risk taker I don't know why that is when the safe crackers retired they put some of their money into growing little crops of weed and so on but profit margin is is only through importing because like the price difference is cheap in the source countries expensive where it sells so because they couldn't do it they were almost throwing it down like a challenge like we don't know anybody who can do this and I thought well I traveled a lot um I didn't think it was going to be impossible um I thought the odds were in my phone and I looked it up I went to the library and sort of researched it a bit and where were you thinking which country Well they um they were very keen to get some um hashish from India or Nepal or somewhere okay I could see um it's bulky and there's packing problems so um they funded me and off I sailed now the operation my first operation was so deplorably bad I'm barely 20 years old I my cunning plan which involved a big piece of exported Machinery which had weights in it so the weights would come out the cash would go in it would weigh the same being returned and it was a piece of Television equipment or something that went South immediately when I didn't realize that I would have to pay a huge deposit in duty to even bring it in as a demo machine so forget that I ended up in short meeting a guy in a money exchange section of a bank I was there because I ran out and I had to send asking for more from the boys and I met him and he wasn't involved in any of this but he soon became that just he managed to get me six kilos of hash I took the 1952 ancient Grundig radio from his parents house the Shelf there guttered the thing like a fish wrapped it up and he had to get cling film in those days think of this before you travel arriving with a suitcase full of cling film doesn't look good I suppose but uh wedged it in there and then just flew back to Sydney now you can imagine what happened well just before we get on to what happened you know one thing that strikes me is what year was would this have been this was uh 77 77 so it's amazing think that back then if someone was going to India for the first time now they could go on Google Maps they could research it or they could find out who they could find phone numbers contacts they could be put in contact with people before they've even set off whereas you must have at that age at that time been going in slightly blind you know touching down in a foreign country that you didn't know well no contacts was that not quite daunting well what was more um troubling with um how everything would fail and then I'd have to um you know come up with another plan what context somebody I knew um um there were no bank robber who joined the hare krishnas and fled to India right and I had his name and and the ashram in Delhi where where he was was supposed to have been uh I didn't really catch up with him on that trip but okay sure so so then you get back to Australia with your radio that is now full to the brim with and I get stopped you you did get stopped okay I could stop because uh I'm I'm on a British passport um and it's the only trip I've ever done and I'm that age I'd stop me oh fatherly type was at the Customs desk now the the systems were different in those days um it was Sydney too which is very and certainly was very relaxed back then right he opened the suitcase uh there was nothing in there except a pair of socks there's a towel wrapping up this massive radio which he lifted up so it was buckled at the sides little red packets poking out oh it smelled like a hedgehog for a patchouliers okay not much of a disguise um he let me go he uh put it back looked around to make sure that none of his workmates were watching him being so soft um and then turned to me and said you're going back there you're going to do this again [Music] all right you can take your we'll call it a radio shall we get out of here what he thought I realized later was that he didn't want the whole grammar of the day arresting me filling out papers and it would have been a a long time plus I guess being a dad he thought if I he's obviously an idiot you're right if I send him into Gladiator Academy or it wasn't really like that in those days but certainly contact center um the prison what am I doing um well I guess uh he was hopeful you know I whilst out of there must have smuggling me but I experienced then what um I got years later which was kind of a real Downer after you know having got nowhere with The Hare krishnas and and cultivated the shoeshine boys and had my money stolen at Amex uh by some Scallywags in Delhi all sorts of Little Adventures over there in India and nonetheless made it it's kind of like that's all there is to it I I didn't really want to give it to anyone um sort of felt like you didn't have a big moment of no a bit of money that came earlier that's handy right uh I paid back what I owed and settled up for for the next thing so but once that was started when you sorry I interrupted you go oh I was just going to say it to finish it even though they'd funded me the guys were very surprised to see me back but at all at all oh you made it oh because some of them say oh you'll just run away with it uh even if that's what he's doing who knows what he's doing you know and then I could see sitting around you can imagine there's like a table full of well like three guys and then a kind of Darkness shrouded over that room I thought uh it's not valuable enough to kill me you know what what is this mood why did you bring that well that's what you've been talking about yeah you could have loaded that with cane or smack or something you guys we say nothing but terrible things about a class or heavy drugs that don't want to know about it right and I could read then that wait a minute there we're all might be guys together and having fun getting into the safe and whatnot but there was a kind of different it was something a very strong lesson I'd have to be thoughtful about that um there could be times where things didn't work out not necessarily that my safety was at risk I didn't see it that way but I knew that there were Ruthless People right okay yeah so you got an insight into a mindset that had been a bit below the surface it was there I just chose not to see it but um I then went on to you know refine everything and Vary everything and then did you after that first time did you were you still working sort of for them or did you immediately well when you wake up on your own when things um I picked up and there was enough money around out of uh out of strategy rather than just being a nice guy I gave my partners a kind of thank you bonus from the next thing that I did but I did that all myself right so it was almost like a yeah separation and I wanted to go back to the my hippie friends anyway they were a little less it wasn't that they were scary but but that didn't last because they were maybe friends might be all right but they will certainly careless and stupid but from from that point onwards after that initial Journey was that you then into the world of smuggling I thought this won't last forever you only need one setback and that changes it I probably made quite a lot of money and I could have got out but and I should have gotta you know I have couriers a leak from one of the the couriers brought the police to me and here was the problem with it it was at first I scattered now I was married to my first wife then clearly Italian girl her dad had restaurants I grabbed her I had a secret drawer with extra passports in it some money ended up four plane Journeys later in um off the Bahamas had the skipper of a day rent yacht and take me out to an island and nobody had ever been on before it was empty sat there on a towel I thought hmm the level of surveillance I had means it's quite a big operation they're funded and I checked with a lawyer before the bigger the money they spent the more determined they'll be stay away or go back I mean I don't know why would anybody do this uh well I wasn't broke um I didn't have to there was no pressure on me the more I went through the problems the more attractive the whole thing is uh she didn't like it much well again do you think because it was a puzzle to be solved because um arrogance really we've gone from basically someone who was kind of mildly interested in making a group of people meeting a group of um safe hackers to someone who pulled off their first thing and then we've jumped to someone who has people working for them and and now is no longer taking the risk themselves now the police are on to you and you're on this desert island well small island and you're thinking about going back into it was this like a turning point in your life in terms of going you know because the other option I suppose was to go straight but were you just more it was that just not an option for you I'd gone to my lawyer Ralph he said look this is what I picked up because I my travel agent had tipped me to a couple of detectives that come in he traveled again while I was in on the phone okay uh actually they're all innocent really yeah you know and and gave him a long list of names um they wanted travel details for and a telephone number which I traced uh to um a private office building which had been rented by state and federal police they were so distrusting of their own they didn't want to even run this thing from um regular police headquarters my lawyer said well what you sure it's you said Ralph look at the list of names there's 30 there I'm 26 of them passports are a lot easier to get back then than there now so you had 26 aliases that you were traveling on yeah right okay um and I described where they were he said David they are funded well they're not bear this in mind but although I what they won't get me with anything they're funded you think they're going to walk away after a year and say oh sorry boss you spend a million dollars and uh nothing doing they don't work like that but this is how stubborn I was I thought because he said the only thing you can do is disappear for at least a couple of years and then you can come back if that's what you want and of course I had justifications for it I thought okay I'll I'll build up a bit more money and then I'll disappear but um it was only after things went terribly badly that I realized I shouldn't play like this anymore what it was they um because the challenge just kept coming so now so did you go back to Australia I went back to Australia and and when I retired within three months right but they weren't waiting for you to arrest you or no no they wanted they wanted something solid okay [Music] um I won't go into the long machinations of it all but um somebody we knew uh was getting things from a Thai Courier and he got arrested he sold us out to the police so that that The Courier would now come to us and I always have some solid evidence right he would bring things but we got away with that because that was another challenge but the police got tired of all this arrested me no drugs of course so it was a difficult case the worst kind of case is that where there's no solid evidence and in a way it's better to go to court where you've got a Smoking Gun and a dead body on the ground because at least you know where you are but where there's nothing tangible and it's conspiracies and this was a huge trial six months long what is that 119 Witnesses 6 000 pages of uh telephone intercept massive thing won't made it worse too and I think this was um would change things for me um the pressure was put on for confessions but it'd be silly to confess and you can't confess on somebody else's behalf can you that's not nice um lots of the family were arrested even my mother was taken and it went oh wow just to put pressure on uh did she know what you did oh she had an idea right okay I mean I used to have bin liners full of money I'd leave behind the fridge yeah you don't get that in the cinema do you not done not a very good day you know uh because they arrested so many people now when they arrested our wives and my business partner Michael his wife just had a baby it was we had to do a deal here I didn't want to but I was going to say I said to Michael look I know you don't like it but we'll play to it get the girls out of trouble we'll Escape that's a good challenge that way [Music] um but unfortunately um the intelligence section put an arsonist Informer in with the girls to get some information her fire was lit uh burnt down the women's prison and my wife and my business partner's wife was were killed uh that's awful and so the Informer that they put in there yeah why did they pick an arsonist for Daniel writer name was I don't know why I remember that after 40 years God so that's quite a big that was oh and and just uh to make things worse the story put about town to scare the careers into talking because they wouldn't speak was that we'd we were killing off all the witnesses and starting with our own family where does that come from um we ended up in a super max prison nightmarish electronic zoo with two inch glass and electronic doors and insane inmates held 48 death rate 27 people a year died in that little supermax going to court in Chains with a SWAT team taking it it was so so much Michael fell to pieces he was just a wreck he didn't make it uh he survived the jail but died when he got out the only way I could survive all of that was to strip away everything I you know I found myself in the supermax concrete everything's concrete the bed everything there's no everything's still just with the tape player from my lure listening to the the tapes the bug tapes the microphones in my house I could play back my life for the last six months clearly you're moving from room to room taking telephone calls she was crying about something I didn't know what I never know and David that's gone immerse yourself in the worst that they have you will not survive this otherwise trial sort of went not so good acquitted of most things but convicted enough 10 years difficult imprisonment but I the only way I could deal with it was to say did I want revenge that was more my fault I brought this about I got her in there I mean a family of a very kind to me about it considering I wouldn't be but it doesn't matter in Chains and super Mech strip it all away it is nothing everyone is a potential enemy everything it just nothing mattered win the day win the night I mean this is a place we had to fill in a book to get some toilet paper the showers were in front of them in a glass box um if you went on a visit they'd zip you up and lock you in a suit so you had no pockets there was after that and her death I felt like there was nothing that could affect me you're wrong about these things you know we're human but I got out and they were there they even visited me to say we'll be on you when you get out the police yeah we enjoyed the old days didn't you yeah I said pretending you know and just to make the point that they were there when I got out um I I'd done a whole lot of Woodwork in the prison in the last place I was at carving intricate things making these really great trick Chinese boxes with beeswax they intercepted the van that was taking it from the prison back to my house and smashed it all to pieces I put it in a box just to say don't think that we will never be here we can do what we want so I decided to leave the country I was um how old am I by then let's work it out yeah uh I started all this Mischief when I was about 18 got arrested at 22. 23 uh um 16 years 17 years either under surveillance or in bad prisons got out and I'm under surveillance again um so how old so you're number 37 about 37. so that's already you know that's a big chunk of Life there but you've lost quite a lot of it to prison or surveillance well at no point now were you like okay and I wasn't a normal person uh really when I got out because of the experience of prison I'd already stripped most of Myself Away to deal with the death of the Superman yeah and and watching people be burnt to death in the place which was frequent somebody had contact glue pulled all over him and then satellite oh God Gods came in and the other one's standing there with a Tire swinging it around to make sure to let him burn let him burn Jesus Barry's name was testicles swollen like apples but black okay he died two hours later in hospital anyway um that was regular account to deal with that I'd already strip things away so when I got a little apartment when I got out and my mother had arranged things for me when they were there when they'd leave rude messages on my answer machine when they'd be behind me everywhere I thought all right I remember this David it never ends if you want to survive go back to the way you were you know in in the super max Anything Can Happen anytime but I didn't want to live like that um I got a fresh passport and most elaborate means um I could spend a week explaining how that came into existence but I went to Thailand to pick up some money I had three days there it was just before Christmas I left at that time on purpose so that they maybe I thought maybe it's their weak point that they want to have families in their life just at Christmas I've parked my mum's car and and left the keys somewhere for her nobody knew were you not meant to leave the country no no no licenses oh I see we're just going to take a minute here to talk about a sponsor of this show which is manscaped we were sent a package to try out by manscaped but Conor one of our producers is already a fan of the brand I believe yeah absolutely I've been using manscape for a little while now and Ben as you know it's that time of year people start asking you what you want for Christmas and I would say that a great gift for a man especially one that might have everything is the manscape performance package 4.0 so what's in that so you get the lawnmower 4.0 electric trimmer you get some anti-chafe boxer shorts which I can vouch for as well as a couple of other grooming products that smell great fantastic well it sounds like a five-star review from uconnor absolutely so Connor you were talking about the performance package there's loads of other great gift ideas such as the hygiene bundle all available at manscape.com com and all gifts that men will genuinely love to receive this Christmas if you are a listener of this podcast you get 20 off and free shipping all you have to do is go to manscape.com and use the code minutes that's manscape.com m-i-n-u-t-e-s minutes um so why are we doing that the risk is it worth it I didn't want to play anymore right I wanted to uh see if I could have a something resembling like a a real life just to find some corner of the world plan was to to return to London and oh so you were leaving forever I'm leaving forever okay I see nobody knew it um I had a couple of hundred thousand in Thailand I thought um which I returned to pick up um now I suppose people say this Crooks always say this most unusual circumstances led to my arrest well they were but then again they always are aren't they or you wouldn't be telling the story or you wouldn't have been arrested but um the USDA was involved lots of people lots of players uh no real drugs are found uh they did an airport sweep and listed me up for like an ounce of something and a false passport or two the money I had just disappeared into pockets but those when I arrived there I felt so free I knew this identity was good I just like floating on air really I slipped out of my protective mode you know that when we stick to the plan and all right you don't want to leave I should have even stayed there for six months just get some sensible view of the world but I I didn't uh and as I went to the airport I could see they were all around me and I melted back into the crowd and disappeared again I thought well that serves me right for changing that attitude I'd had from back in super max and I just glaze over concentrate on the details which I needed to do because when I went to make a phone call later at the travel agency uh waiting it was so depressing being thrown into the Thai prison and I had some idea what they'd be like um people I'd known had been arrested there I knew this much it never won a case you never get out well you get out and what were they arresting you for was it the the uh the passport um what did the the the money wasn't I mean what did they leave 4 000 or something like that right and there are airports we put um I saw the guy walking in with it in a plastic bag you know whatever people throw on the floor before they go through security there was a bit of hash this usual bits of weed but what they really wanted was um this 25 grams of heroin because that would finish me off a policeman um Australian one said was that yours yeah yeah sure it was he said I didn't think so what would you be carrying around that for I mean if it was 10 kilos I might understand but but that was enough the death penalty and was it yours no no no so where where would that come from if you do they do a sweep every afternoon at five o'clock they get tons of it right I get you know nervous passengers go up and then they change their minds and they throw it in the toilet too and were they just did do you think they believed it was yours or do you think they were just going this is we need to give him this bit no no I think they were using it hoping to that would be good to hold and maybe they could get something else find out what I was up to who I was seeing because I had met um somebody who's whose uncle was a big player right so there was there was I think they were optimistic there might be more Camp come out of it but but there wasn't but what difference did it make and I wasn't really worried about um those drugs or the death penalty I wanted to die anyway frankly my first escape plans from there had this I imagine getting out to find the Privacy to kill myself right I wanted to go to the dusa Tony Hotel I knew Which floor and where to get onto the roof I'd taken photographs from there many years before um they were you simply couldn't get a moment's piece dormitories with 150 guys in them screaming all night um we can't even take a crap in peace in the Thai prison We're Not Afraid though of what killing myself well no I mean I don't know being brutalized by the guards or the inmates so well I knew enough about Thailand to to know that it was a little more comic than than bad there were very bad things happen they used to um they've beaten people a couple of people get beaten to death every day there but it's a very big prison we have to get that in proportion I only wish they wouldn't use the food trolley to take the dead bodies out because um you know they don't clean them up um and could you speak the language or were you quite it was a quite different communication uh not really uh and the few languages that uh pitch up in my travels I always found that even if you know them it's better to pretend you don't okay um because they'll talk about you behind your back you know certainly didn't live it on there was I I just couldn't see any point I'd gone to such elaborate precautions on this trip um it just shouldn't have happened and I even got away from the airport and still it happened oh all that confidence that I'll figure a way out I didn't care anymore I just had enough um and I remember seeing an old guy there if you had to go to court they put change on you and um you'd line up on the ground now this old guy I was looking at him because I don't know why a big soundtrack went past he had the presence of mind to push his head under that sand truck and oh it twisted it around popped like a watermelon being dropped on the ground oh my God guys very annoyed told the trustees to get that thing away out of sight was that nice thing called it I thought you Brave bastard you yeah you've got the guts to do that was it not quite a disturbing thing to witness no it was shocking because if you haven't seen it kind of thing up close and I happen to be looking um it was uh but that that's how I felt about it but I was saved In The End by a con man and people say a lot of bad things about economy they do yes they do and they uh you can't be trusted uh they are rottenness and they will cheat you just because they're the Scorpion that's in their nature uh but sometimes they're just what you need and this rather smooth um Bostonian American um who spoke Thai and really knew his way around and I you know I thought the somewhere in this huge prison there'd be an enclave of rich and corrupt foreigners with loads of money and there'd be luxuries it wasn't there was nobody of any importance in there you know a couple of big sacrifices had been made but um a couple of very rich policemen who were in the hospital in intensive care but other than that it was it was just um the people who reached the absolute bottom Drifters in Asia who did run after run and then got sacrificed to the machine they'd get about four jobs a big Syndicate there operating careers had run four times bang they'd shot them to the police they'd be gone oh God they will turn told the same story and it was Joe it was this guest house it was such and such identical and um and and at this point had you been sentenced to death had you received oh no no no I I was trying to avoid that yeah once I came to my senses because the the Boston con had so many wonderful schemes medical thing to get me bail and know some way of a escape with a go to court I get snatched from there I had villains come over and and scope out the court too because there was a way I thought of getting out of there from the lift that took you up to the the building uh snatched from the middle as you go down changed into a different set of clothes but they all got scared thing about um some of our most loved uh and fearless villains they're pretty good in the local manner but you throw them into a place like that where people carry machine guns and shoot at will just for the hell of it not so confident they like the upper edge of being snakes um so I couldn't convince anybody to really help and it was just as well um and two and a half years passed there in this prison it's a long time it was I sort of perked up a little bit pulled myself together started exercising um got a couple of ATM cards over hadn't my favorite god um he was in charge of the the building bought myself a room renovated um so you had you bought a room within the prison that was just for you rented that's rented right you know and is that an official thing that you're allowed to do right there are places in the world where it's official right but you had an influx of money that you could pay for special treats you could survive there on um less than 500 pounds a month and be king oh wow was this the 70s or the 80s now by the way we're into um 90 495 19 the 495 because what's reported about you is that during the 80s you were a multi-millionaire um is that accurate um now what do we call a multi-millionaires a young halfway with a million and a quarter on a glass coffee table and looks around the living room and thinks I've got to get a sofa one of these days um oh goes to the car auctions in the morning buys a big yank tank with a 427 Chevy engine in it um drives it around makes his own car parking spaces you know we're smashing the front in backing the other one pushing the other cars out of the way um oh stoned off my head most of the time uh if I wasn't stunned enough I'd take a few mandracks just to colludes icing on the cake um so I didn't take care of the money and the money didn't take care of me so I guess I'm like the reason I the reason I asked was because it must have been quite a stark change going from a very rich existence to basically somewhere where you basically couldn't pay for anything initially and it was a very poor existence but I guess from what you're saying there it's not like you felt like you were Rich at the time um I've made that contrast a few times when I had my first big arrest I couldn't as I was in a cold near lightless cell of blue stone and horse hair mattress about two inches thick and wrecking a piss I would think back to the night before when I had my important to tell in huge bed and Irish linen sheets and swimming pool out there and um and we had to kind of shake off the contrast but that rubber banding must must have been hard to take because it's you're going from basically the aspiration of almost everyone where you're talking about just buying cars outright and having a swimming pool to a piss stinking bed you know it must be it was you know it's odd thing about it was providing I could see a way out a work a way out I didn't so much mind oh okay um I really trained myself to expect my whatever world I built up and and this happened several times I've done it five times had a new identity New Life new surroundings even new people and dang they're gone and every time it got worse um and there was even Thailand was desperately important because even though it was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it um you know I was somebody that nobody minded killing um so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah there's nothing like the prospect of being executed by a machine gun which is the way they did it God is that what it would have been wow yeah you know oh they'd have three guards all with a bit of string on the trigger and they'd all pull it once so that none of them could be condemned in the Buddhist sense of sin oh they don't even actually right I see it caused the bullet that finished you off oh I see so you're in the Thai prison you've been sentenced to uh rather unpleasant death penalty um how did you start coming up with this famous plan for escaping um desperation it was the last plan that looked like it was going to work um there were probably about 20 plans considered um everything from being the prison held I've since found out it holds 22 000 people oh my God in 10 sub prisons uh there's a women's section there's a young offenders there's a special reminder a drug unit all of that um just a wild place it has everything it even had a prisoner-run shop where you could extract you could borrow money against your account and cash anyway um one of the plans involved being welded into a VW Combi van in the prisons Auto Workshop which would be picked up early Monday morning and I'd be driven out and that another one was um there were several courtroom ones and you couldn't just pay your way out no no it's just you could pay to have a mobile phone which in those days was a rare thing but they were around um you could pay for a bottle of clong uh whiskey you could pay I'm sure you could pay to get a a girl in your room if you could work out what a room was that a whole section full of ladyboys there and got a building full of them they used to open it up on Saturdays so um you could pay for anything but not to leave they couldn't cover that and they couldn't trust each other you would need 25 30 different guards paid off and and the gods of visitors I mean too many guides no that wouldn't work and they looked at it as a kind of betrayal only if I saw two escapes attempts there one group of uh straight kids and a Singaporean got out of their cell incredibly turned themselves into the sleeping God when they'd all lied to each other about what they didn't have you know the ropes and ways out because they're it was so outraged that they'd spoiled the guys jobs they beat them to death slowly tortured them over three months to death having put them in little code lockers the soy they call them drag them out in elephant chains every day and batter them senseless uh internal bleeding usually did it um look I've got a bowl of rice and a painting to poo in that was it um even the water was it was just too horrible so if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off even my Swedish friends Sten the Viking he backed out at the last minute I couldn't get people to go with me all the other plants had fallen to bits because they depended on other people I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars and I needed equipment for that and here's a really important point I guess as bad as this world is you've got to try to find good people if you ask somebody if you asked your friend yeah and and you're finished you'll manage to get a phone call and say friend it's been here um I need you to get um I don't know four hacksaw blades and cut them into the dowel rods of a of a poster and then paint it all up and send it in a huge package with this that cable ties gaffer tape but disguise all that how many people are going to do it turn around wouldn't believe it Ben called me what his neck yeah he's screwed but anyway he wouldn't believe but he wants me to do this that now people don't do it but Michael on the other hand our business partner wouldn't even let me explain he hadn't heard from me in 18 months he said David don't explain I'm sure we could get cut off tell me the important part now where do I have to be and what do I have to bring no that's a friend um and so I've always tried to do the same for the others that I've known like that um but um I did get the equipment together that I needed and everything um about escapes from a big prison is not like your hope it's going to be you know I turned it out walked around the streets and it had streets inside it um and timed it with my trusty Casio and it was so I knew roughly how long it would take to get me but the night's a different world I'm a prisoner I'm only used to noise during the day even the fan chopping around in the Cell at night it's so quiet everything I did squeaked and rattled and twisted I came across a panel that had to be a nail had to come out and that and they'll protest it and scream their wrench out of the way it took um uh seven or eight worlds uh sorry seven or eight walls to cross over I say worlds because they really were every building was a different thing and I got lost and I went past the terminal AIDS Ward that building hundreds of guys all die and I could smell it before I got there because this necrotic Rotting Flesh and I couldn't resist looking in I'm carrying this huge long ladder made out of bamboo poles and fake picture frames gaffer taped along the center [Music] um and I looked up and I saw all these little faces in the Moonlight wrapped in so much pain and despair they didn't have the energy to cry out to the guards if they'd been in any other prisoners they would have the trustees there were absolute scum of the earth had whistled little uniforms sell the drugs one day and the rest of the guys for it the next all of that um and it was only by um well I only got to the outer wall by Dawn and if somebody had been with me I wouldn't have made it either you wouldn't have no imagine I've taken all night to get there and at each point where this something was unexpected I've had to dream up something and I get a little basic toolkit and I sometimes I'd have to sacrifice part of my ladder to make a hook to pull down barbed wire and the technique for using the thing was awkward you had to prop it walk up drop down the other side so you're twisting over the walls like that manual is entirely barbed wire so I had to go underneath it covered in mud the the last one was really too high and there was a Mars bar Creek the the moat that ran around I did you know if I was with somebody else we'd be arguing wouldn't we oh Spa Creek oh it was full of turds bombing around it was caught out of the sewer yeah you did ask um illustrative okay we're just gonna take a quick break from the show to talk about a sponsor of this episode better help better help is an online Counseling Service which connects people to therapists and counselors I'm joined by one of our producers bryony is counseling something you've had experience with do you know what it's interesting because when I was growing up the same kind of challenges in life would happen but people wouldn't necessarily go to therapy or talk about therapy and I feel like since uh maybe my late teens early 20s people are starting to go to therapy and talking about it and I have definitely used it in my life and it's been massively beneficial same and do you because I think one of the things that people often mistake they think it's just for big things yeah but what's the other experience of that thing I think life always throws you know small challenges and large challenges and sometimes the big things need talking about but actually you know starting a new school or starting a new job can rile up that same level of anxiety and it's just really helpful to be able to talk to someone about it who is completely impartial not involved in your life and just kind of a safe space I guess to just say whatever you want to say you completely agree as the world's largest therapy service better help as much 3 million people with professionally licensed and vetted therapists available 100 online plus it's affordable just fill out a brief questionnaire to match with a therapist if things aren't clicking you can easily switch to a new therapist anytime it couldn't be simpler no waiting rooms no traffic no endless searching for the right therapist learn more and save 10 of your first month at betterhelp.com minutes with that's betterhelp help help.com minutes with um now there was one way of oh Beyond marsburg create this a foot and a half of land before this huge huge wall you've got to get a ladder that's too heavy to carry too imbalanced to do anything with but you've got a bit of rope how do you get it to the other side of Mars bar which has all got tangled barb wire in that so it'll catch get it in place and up against the wall when you've got no ground to to walk on now there is a way and uh I guess people have to listen to me describe it either to you or in my book okay fine but too long to tell here sure but um I could see the glow of dawn as I got to the top which had electricity running through it too just to make it the top of the wall dead yeah yeah wow but um my friend who um was in there a bit of a technician is to belong to the anarchist Society in in Britain how would you belong to a society that has rules when you anyway putting that aside he did tell me that it would only be 240 volts but to be careful um and just managed to get over that and because the original plan was to um oh there was an outer moat beyond that of 20 meters I had my clothes ready to go into a plastic bag swim the moat but just as well I didn't um because all it turned out all the guards houses were over the other side of that moat this would not be a place to go but I cleaned myself up threw some clothes on and I one of the jobs that I didn't do but I was supposed to be doing was working in the Umbrella Factory so I paid a local boy to do it um I've got a pop-up umbrella from there I thought you know you really get a perspective about I want to just simple discrimination but being an outsider a foreigner the way sometimes people feel picked upon you know we were called the white trash and we were in in Chains and everything so I knew I had to cover my face in the popular did it and I managed to get to a place where a passport was hidden and to the airport and still had a working ATM card to get me out of the country into Singapore so did you end up with the umbrella did you walk out the front gate yeah I did I had some long trousers on now in their prisoners are not allowed to wear them so I had some khaki pants I thought they might as I walked around the the narrow path to the front gate it's still mote but a little Bridge I thought another figure it's a guard arriving late and sneaking in and I did I felt like Ripley an alien uh looking at thinking lucky lucky this is where it all ends doesn't it and I'm thinking that every moment and looking up and there was just enough light rain to justify the umbrella yeah I would learn later that was actually the not a rain from the gods but the spittle of their laughter because they had worse things in mind for me later on I mean it's so it's you know how many people are you aware how many people had escaped from that prison up to that point was it some every year or was it very infrequent none um the ties sometimes ran away when they were doing the gardens in Chains outside but Escape From Within um I'd known of in 20 years people could recall two attempts no foreigners um and they didn't trust the foreigners that's why they put you on the third floor right quite rightly yes and and how long had it taken you from like the beginning of the uh I started cutting at um 11 45 I paid a lot to get a light switch in there normally the lights are on all the time um okay and I said to my favorite guard oh yeah Ponting or whatever his name was I can't sleep with that thing I'll put a light switch in um um now they didn't say it as corruption or bribe taking they thought I'm doing this nice guy a favor and I'll be lucky because of it that's a very big thing over there you know if I get caught I'm unlucky then so they can batter me to death I mean sure it's kind of self-justifies any action that a human being might take so he started cutting around eight for 11 45 11 45 okay it's quite close through one bar by two in the morning oh God stencia listen we'll go on the next note I looked around and Kevin the American from Hawaii I didn't even know this was happening uh Mirage the Indian I know he's going to talk the next morning he was kakaria LA pantaloni right in the cell never mind holding out and not saying anything he would have it would have been finished I never would have made it and I guess I could have seen the missing bars potentially but I learned later on I actually caught up with somebody who was in there Scottish guy um he was there for selling ecstasy to the Two well-off Sons and Daughters of wealthy policemen anyway um he remembers they the guards couldn't figure that I'd left oh um he said David they ran around the the prison calling out your name it was Daniel Westlake while I was there Daniel Daniel they okay that somebody drew their attention to the cut bar in there yeah my Scottish friend said they the gods wanted they thought that okay he's got out he's angry about something uh Daniel but he's not actually he'll never get out he couldn't get it they never found the the ladder down the front wall until much much later so for um uh uh only one of them said oh we better check the airport they sent a couple of guys down there um just a little bit late and you were gone by then only just and remember man you've got a passport from a Chinese connection that you barely know but kind of like the cut of his jib but are you gonna put your life on the line on that and at every moment you're handing it over you know like the look of it yeah they don't like the look of it they're typing it up and you're thinking they got onto the computer have they done that bit uh have they entered my arrival was this I knew it was freshly stolen or sold off was only a few weeks old uh I mean not new was had only gone missing a few weeks earlier so it was still good but very nerve-wracking and I didn't have a photo I had to use my old um uh radio operators license that had a photograph in it to get reproduced into this thing so it was a bit grainy um and even on the plane it was delay and takeoff oh God and a mumbling Captain oh sorry um we we have a thing with one passenger I just asked what thing exactly soon enough thwomp doors to manual oh but I've got an hour you know looking at this passport I don't like it get to Singapore but I make it through so you got to Singapore yeah but you did end up going back to prison not a Thai prison but a different prison he's suggesting uh I did something wrong well I'm hoping you're going to tell me um no well okay uh I didn't stay in Singapore long because um I sat there in the hotel room unable to digest food not prepared by my own cook sure I in the hotel room in Singapore I realized you could work out who had left that day if they'd flown my air by simply going to the airport and children you work it out yourselves at home you check everybody who's left separate the foreigners hmm go a step further let's keep the Canadian and American the British the Australian New Zealand all the English-speaking passport Society um just to you know reduce the numbers take those names check with the embassies any of these names belong to lost or stolen passports that have been reported yeah five of them because that's Bangkok you know not the only Mischief maker there but nonetheless um they probably knew I could be who was I Charles McClintock hmm sorry Charles I had to borrow your passport but it was an essential cause but you're not wanted anymore of course are you no but I did get an unwelcome knock at the door some years ago uh by the police who um would it be to go excuse me Westminster Court known for the terrorist cases extradition or parking fights wow I'd lift the car anywhere lately so it was going to be one of the other two and it was extradition to Thailand I fought that case for two years and um it was difficult um but managed to effectively win in the end so the ties have dropped that one and I can't be taken back there I'm not wanted anywhere um I can nobody can do what they want but um I I'm not I haven't got anything pending I'm not in business I'm a bit cautious I even got sent something in the the mail a few years ago and I thought it was some gift from some halfway ambitious wombat in in Pakistan sending me a bit of dope thinking oh yeah there's a gift you might like that connection made no I mean people had my address all around the world ever since Danny Dyer um it turned out to be more complicated than that but um very dangerous for me to walk into a courtroom so I don't even imagine you're me and knock at the door oh here's something for you Ben you don't like the look of it you refuse it you're in court no matter why did you refuse that was it your name no you was up The Jig was up proof ladies and gentlemen oh you accept it ah you accepted it proof ladies and gentlemen wife saying to me Jeanette and whom I met in Pakistan years ago and she was there to fish out her husband on a two-ton hash deal he didn't make it anyway um she said throw the thing away I'm thinking in court again ladies and gentlemen he threw the stuff away I can't win so very cautious about all that kind of stuff um fair enough but I take it you won't be going for a holiday to Thailand anytime soon I didn't think so okay so how many do you know off the top of your head of your life how many years of your life have you spent in prison ultimately I did add it up once I'm 66 now and I suppose I've spent um but 22 years the thing that occurs to me and I met you before and I thought the same thing is like you obviously extremely intelligent extremely resourceful it can't be well but well anyway but do you regret the choices you made in terms of do you see those 22 years in prison as something you had no control over it's just the way the dice rolled or do you see them as a mistake on your part um worse than a mistake mistake suggest you didn't know uh where you were going wrong I was taking those steps into uh of a precipice that I'd defied there is no gravity I said I said I will work out something before I hit the ground um when I was It was kind of in stages when I was young it was just arrogance and and showing off and later on when everything was destroyed it was kind of I'd scraped away all of my life and would just go on um then in the third stage it was escaping away from places rebuilding up and being weakened every time it was taken away again um and do I regret it yeah I'm sure I um no you know some people say oh yeah but David just smuggled everything on Earth you scumbag you you know um think of the lives you've destroyed and the people you've heard ah and I go to start to explain that it's not quite black and white uh I mean I've had drug habits myself that I've carelessly allowed um but I thought what's the point anything I say we just sound like self-justification so well don't listen to me then you know but things that have happened that have taught me a lot it's interesting you say that because one of a lot of the comments on our well on the first video we did a lot of the comments where people saying someone needs to make a movie about this guy but a lot of the other comments were people saying he's so charismatic and likable but he must be a really dangerous person to have been involved with all these worlds for so long and um we've interviewed a couple of drug smugglers and I would say they're the ones that I've met have been the ones that probably are more someone you'd see is traditionally quite an obviously dangerous person you come across as very Charming charismatic roguish where do you see yourself on that scale do you see yourself as someone who was dangerous or do you see yourself as someone who's just moved from area to area as it occurred um kind of like this a dangerous I suppose what most people see that and you know if somebody was a problem for me would I find the best option to have them killed or not but really there always was a kind of Vestige of that's a failure if you can't think of anything better than to have them killed then then then what are you doing there's a million clever ways of solving your problems and that besides which there's always going to be people you can't kill everybody um not only that who killed the killers that you've got to do the killing you know you know they always say that about the quiet ones and all of that but it was the people who bothered to put up a smoke screen um they're establishing a um later Alibi a courtroom personality but I met him he didn't seem bothered by all of that why would he have him killed and those are the ones that um seem to be more dangerous and if I was such a dangerous person like that I certainly been absolute fool to break from that mold and say otherwise wouldn't it very true David it's great to see you again thank you so much for coming in always a pleasure yeah and I've Got a Feeling we'll be seeing you again at some point as well it's possible it does may cross thank you I'll be like oh my God they're in my head they they know they know that was a song and so they put that song on the radio and it's all everything revolves around me or you know and this happened well sometimes happens today you know I'm I'm thinking of someone in my head someone under there like on the street	Jimmy us through oh no I can understand that I mean the only place I never talk is in the police station I always like some of my uh work colleagues took um what was it one slap to get them talking but five to shut them up oh okay so let's go right back to the beginning um you were born in the UK and then I believe you emigrated to Australia well um it was all a family thing yes I was born in basewater in London I spent the first few years of my life then uh there but my parents broke up divorced and I went with my mother to Australia with my older sister so I don't have any really very early memories of London apart from some old eight millimeter movie footage of me learning to walk in Hyde Park my dad was waving a five pound note in front of my face and I was making every effort to grab it I continued that behavior for many many years afterwards returned to Australia um finished some schooling um got really contrasting jobs I worked in an adult Agency for a while um but also before that I was got a job in a cinema now it was the and under literally an underground place but it was there that I got introduced to a bunch of crooks um some of the girls there had boyfriends that I used to run down with um	3	4	6	Jimmy us through oh no I can understand that I mean the only place I never talk is in the police station I always like some of my uh work colleagues took um what was it one slap to get them talking but five to shut them up	oh okay so let's go right back to the beginning um you were born in the UK and then I believe you emigrated to Australia	0,2,5	2,1,4	0	2	5	2	1	4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyZyHHexx7s	4,101	oyZyHHexx7s	2022-12-07 00:00:00	even though I was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off I couldn't get people to go with me I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars [Music] it's great to have you back David obviously we've met before but for anyone who doesn't know who you are for new listeners or new viewers could you give us a brief introduction to what you are famous for well I suppose uh most well known for uh having escaped to prison in Thailand in Bangkok uh the biggest one they have there clong Prim it uh wasn't something I did frivolously I was going to be executed within a couple of weeks so it seemed like a good time to leave okay now um we're going to get into that in a bit more detail but one thing that I remember about you from last time is you're the most incredible talker and we took away the inter the initial interview we've done with you and ended up having to make it into two long episodes because you have a lot of different very colorful uh experiences so do forgive me if I Jimmy us through oh no I can understand that I mean the only place I never talk is in the police station I always like some of my uh work colleagues took um what was it one slap to get them talking but five to shut them up oh okay so let's go right back to the beginning um you were born in the UK and then I believe you emigrated to Australia well um it was all a family thing yes I was born in basewater in London I spent the first few years of my life then uh there but my parents broke up divorced and I went with my mother to Australia with my older sister so I don't have any really very early memories of London apart from some old eight millimeter movie footage of me learning to walk in Hyde Park my dad was waving a five pound note in front of my face and I was making every effort to grab it I continued that behavior for many many years afterwards returned to Australia um finished some schooling um got really contrasting jobs I worked in an adult Agency for a while um but also before that I was got a job in a cinema now it was the and under literally an underground place but it was there that I got introduced to a bunch of crooks um some of the girls there had boyfriends that I used to run down with um strange boxes or bits of money or fur coats and then wink at me bolt out the back door pursued by often policemen undercover ones of course whom we'd misdirect somewhere but that Circle they were um safe crackers and they really didn't trust Outsiders and didn't much like the sound of me but because of I demonstrated a couple of things by being look everybody was really very anti-authority then I I don't mean hostile but for people now they they wouldn't have experienced that in the uh late 60s 70s we were so snotty and arrogant we really thought we were going to change the world and that um the laws were all nothing and the way to change them was to break them well that was the kind of vanity we had so um when I got to know the safe crackers uh better there was something really interesting I mean I didn't like the idea you know stealing things seemed a bit tacky but on the other hand they kind of all needed the money from the from their backgrounds and everything but that wasn't so much the the interest it was the technicalities of getting into these things okay um they used to drill through the top um having anchored it with the drill with clamps and and put a kind of little lens inside a cystoscope used in medicine and watch the the wheels turning around this is the old kind of old-fashioned Hollywood style it was yeah and um behind the safe were three discs and you had to line them up and they'd once they got in they'd take the door with them so that the opposition the safe makers wouldn't know how they'd got in and it was a a constant battle between the manufacturers and them because they've come across new safes which had Special Metals in it that was mixed like a a crunchy nut bar very hard metals very soft ones so the drill bit would slip on them snap and you got a sense that this was almost like a game where um they would try something then try to beat them and they were very loyal to each other um they they never spoke out of school as it were um when I got involved with them I'd only have to if I had trouble I don't have to make one phone call and people would appear out of nowhere and I thought yeah this this is kind of better than the treacherous boys school that I I grew up in and how old were you at this point um 19 years old 19. so were you thinking you were making a conscious decision to move into illegal activities or at that point in time and at that point in the world did it feel like more of a kind of a bit of roguish fun would you say I was drawn to it anyway because it was interesting and um I didn't really have a lot of fear I think sometimes what we do or don't do is depending on how scary it seems yeah agreed um I was born with a low resting heart rate as they say you know if it's below 70 you're a risk taker I don't know why that is when the safe crackers retired they put some of their money into growing little crops of weed and so on but profit margin is is only through importing because like the price difference is cheap in the source countries expensive where it sells so because they couldn't do it they were almost throwing it down like a challenge like we don't know anybody who can do this and I thought well I traveled a lot um I didn't think it was going to be impossible um I thought the odds were in my phone and I looked it up I went to the library and sort of researched it a bit and where were you thinking which country Well they um they were very keen to get some um hashish from India or Nepal or somewhere okay I could see um it's bulky and there's packing problems so um they funded me and off I sailed now the operation my first operation was so deplorably bad I'm barely 20 years old I my cunning plan which involved a big piece of exported Machinery which had weights in it so the weights would come out the cash would go in it would weigh the same being returned and it was a piece of Television equipment or something that went South immediately when I didn't realize that I would have to pay a huge deposit in duty to even bring it in as a demo machine so forget that I ended up in short meeting a guy in a money exchange section of a bank I was there because I ran out and I had to send asking for more from the boys and I met him and he wasn't involved in any of this but he soon became that just he managed to get me six kilos of hash I took the 1952 ancient Grundig radio from his parents house the Shelf there guttered the thing like a fish wrapped it up and he had to get cling film in those days think of this before you travel arriving with a suitcase full of cling film doesn't look good I suppose but uh wedged it in there and then just flew back to Sydney now you can imagine what happened well just before we get on to what happened you know one thing that strikes me is what year was would this have been this was uh 77 77 so it's amazing think that back then if someone was going to India for the first time now they could go on Google Maps they could research it or they could find out who they could find phone numbers contacts they could be put in contact with people before they've even set off whereas you must have at that age at that time been going in slightly blind you know touching down in a foreign country that you didn't know well no contacts was that not quite daunting well what was more um troubling with um how everything would fail and then I'd have to um you know come up with another plan what context somebody I knew um um there were no bank robber who joined the hare krishnas and fled to India right and I had his name and and the ashram in Delhi where where he was was supposed to have been uh I didn't really catch up with him on that trip but okay sure so so then you get back to Australia with your radio that is now full to the brim with and I get stopped you you did get stopped okay I could stop because uh I'm I'm on a British passport um and it's the only trip I've ever done and I'm that age I'd stop me oh fatherly type was at the Customs desk now the the systems were different in those days um it was Sydney too which is very and certainly was very relaxed back then right he opened the suitcase uh there was nothing in there except a pair of socks there's a towel wrapping up this massive radio which he lifted up so it was buckled at the sides little red packets poking out oh it smelled like a hedgehog for a patchouliers okay not much of a disguise um he let me go he uh put it back looked around to make sure that none of his workmates were watching him being so soft um and then turned to me and said you're going back there you're going to do this again [Music] all right you can take your we'll call it a radio shall we get out of here what he thought I realized later was that he didn't want the whole grammar of the day arresting me filling out papers and it would have been a a long time plus I guess being a dad he thought if I he's obviously an idiot you're right if I send him into Gladiator Academy or it wasn't really like that in those days but certainly contact center um the prison what am I doing um well I guess uh he was hopeful you know I whilst out of there must have smuggling me but I experienced then what um I got years later which was kind of a real Downer after you know having got nowhere with The Hare krishnas and and cultivated the shoeshine boys and had my money stolen at Amex uh by some Scallywags in Delhi all sorts of Little Adventures over there in India and nonetheless made it it's kind of like that's all there is to it I I didn't really want to give it to anyone um sort of felt like you didn't have a big moment of no a bit of money that came earlier that's handy right uh I paid back what I owed and settled up for for the next thing so but once that was started when you sorry I interrupted you go oh I was just going to say it to finish it even though they'd funded me the guys were very surprised to see me back but at all at all oh you made it oh because some of them say oh you'll just run away with it uh even if that's what he's doing who knows what he's doing you know and then I could see sitting around you can imagine there's like a table full of well like three guys and then a kind of Darkness shrouded over that room I thought uh it's not valuable enough to kill me you know what what is this mood why did you bring that well that's what you've been talking about yeah you could have loaded that with cane or smack or something you guys we say nothing but terrible things about a class or heavy drugs that don't want to know about it right and I could read then that wait a minute there we're all might be guys together and having fun getting into the safe and whatnot but there was a kind of different it was something a very strong lesson I'd have to be thoughtful about that um there could be times where things didn't work out not necessarily that my safety was at risk I didn't see it that way but I knew that there were Ruthless People right okay yeah so you got an insight into a mindset that had been a bit below the surface it was there I just chose not to see it but um I then went on to you know refine everything and Vary everything and then did you after that first time did you were you still working sort of for them or did you immediately well when you wake up on your own when things um I picked up and there was enough money around out of uh out of strategy rather than just being a nice guy I gave my partners a kind of thank you bonus from the next thing that I did but I did that all myself right so it was almost like a yeah separation and I wanted to go back to the my hippie friends anyway they were a little less it wasn't that they were scary but but that didn't last because they were maybe friends might be all right but they will certainly careless and stupid but from from that point onwards after that initial Journey was that you then into the world of smuggling I thought this won't last forever you only need one setback and that changes it I probably made quite a lot of money and I could have got out but and I should have gotta you know I have couriers a leak from one of the the couriers brought the police to me and here was the problem with it it was at first I scattered now I was married to my first wife then clearly Italian girl her dad had restaurants I grabbed her I had a secret drawer with extra passports in it some money ended up four plane Journeys later in um off the Bahamas had the skipper of a day rent yacht and take me out to an island and nobody had ever been on before it was empty sat there on a towel I thought hmm the level of surveillance I had means it's quite a big operation they're funded and I checked with a lawyer before the bigger the money they spent the more determined they'll be stay away or go back I mean I don't know why would anybody do this uh well I wasn't broke um I didn't have to there was no pressure on me the more I went through the problems the more attractive the whole thing is uh she didn't like it much well again do you think because it was a puzzle to be solved because um arrogance really we've gone from basically someone who was kind of mildly interested in making a group of people meeting a group of um safe hackers to someone who pulled off their first thing and then we've jumped to someone who has people working for them and and now is no longer taking the risk themselves now the police are on to you and you're on this desert island well small island and you're thinking about going back into it was this like a turning point in your life in terms of going you know because the other option I suppose was to go straight but were you just more it was that just not an option for you I'd gone to my lawyer Ralph he said look this is what I picked up because I my travel agent had tipped me to a couple of detectives that come in he traveled again while I was in on the phone okay uh actually they're all innocent really yeah you know and and gave him a long list of names um they wanted travel details for and a telephone number which I traced uh to um a private office building which had been rented by state and federal police they were so distrusting of their own they didn't want to even run this thing from um regular police headquarters my lawyer said well what you sure it's you said Ralph look at the list of names there's 30 there I'm 26 of them passports are a lot easier to get back then than there now so you had 26 aliases that you were traveling on yeah right okay um and I described where they were he said David they are funded well they're not bear this in mind but although I what they won't get me with anything they're funded you think they're going to walk away after a year and say oh sorry boss you spend a million dollars and uh nothing doing they don't work like that but this is how stubborn I was I thought because he said the only thing you can do is disappear for at least a couple of years and then you can come back if that's what you want and of course I had justifications for it I thought okay I'll I'll build up a bit more money and then I'll disappear but um it was only after things went terribly badly that I realized I shouldn't play like this anymore what it was they um because the challenge just kept coming so now so did you go back to Australia I went back to Australia and and when I retired within three months right but they weren't waiting for you to arrest you or no no they wanted they wanted something solid okay [Music] um I won't go into the long machinations of it all but um somebody we knew uh was getting things from a Thai Courier and he got arrested he sold us out to the police so that that The Courier would now come to us and I always have some solid evidence right he would bring things but we got away with that because that was another challenge but the police got tired of all this arrested me no drugs of course so it was a difficult case the worst kind of case is that where there's no solid evidence and in a way it's better to go to court where you've got a Smoking Gun and a dead body on the ground because at least you know where you are but where there's nothing tangible and it's conspiracies and this was a huge trial six months long what is that 119 Witnesses 6 000 pages of uh telephone intercept massive thing won't made it worse too and I think this was um would change things for me um the pressure was put on for confessions but it'd be silly to confess and you can't confess on somebody else's behalf can you that's not nice um lots of the family were arrested even my mother was taken and it went oh wow just to put pressure on uh did she know what you did oh she had an idea right okay I mean I used to have bin liners full of money I'd leave behind the fridge yeah you don't get that in the cinema do you not done not a very good day you know uh because they arrested so many people now when they arrested our wives and my business partner Michael his wife just had a baby it was we had to do a deal here I didn't want to but I was going to say I said to Michael look I know you don't like it but we'll play to it get the girls out of trouble we'll Escape that's a good challenge that way [Music] um but unfortunately um the intelligence section put an arsonist Informer in with the girls to get some information her fire was lit uh burnt down the women's prison and my wife and my business partner's wife was were killed uh that's awful and so the Informer that they put in there yeah why did they pick an arsonist for Daniel writer name was I don't know why I remember that after 40 years God so that's quite a big that was oh and and just uh to make things worse the story put about town to scare the careers into talking because they wouldn't speak was that we'd we were killing off all the witnesses and starting with our own family where does that come from um we ended up in a super max prison nightmarish electronic zoo with two inch glass and electronic doors and insane inmates held 48 death rate 27 people a year died in that little supermax going to court in Chains with a SWAT team taking it it was so so much Michael fell to pieces he was just a wreck he didn't make it uh he survived the jail but died when he got out the only way I could survive all of that was to strip away everything I you know I found myself in the supermax concrete everything's concrete the bed everything there's no everything's still just with the tape player from my lure listening to the the tapes the bug tapes the microphones in my house I could play back my life for the last six months clearly you're moving from room to room taking telephone calls she was crying about something I didn't know what I never know and David that's gone immerse yourself in the worst that they have you will not survive this otherwise trial sort of went not so good acquitted of most things but convicted enough 10 years difficult imprisonment but I the only way I could deal with it was to say did I want revenge that was more my fault I brought this about I got her in there I mean a family of a very kind to me about it considering I wouldn't be but it doesn't matter in Chains and super Mech strip it all away it is nothing everyone is a potential enemy everything it just nothing mattered win the day win the night I mean this is a place we had to fill in a book to get some toilet paper the showers were in front of them in a glass box um if you went on a visit they'd zip you up and lock you in a suit so you had no pockets there was after that and her death I felt like there was nothing that could affect me you're wrong about these things you know we're human but I got out and they were there they even visited me to say we'll be on you when you get out the police yeah we enjoyed the old days didn't you yeah I said pretending you know and just to make the point that they were there when I got out um I I'd done a whole lot of Woodwork in the prison in the last place I was at carving intricate things making these really great trick Chinese boxes with beeswax they intercepted the van that was taking it from the prison back to my house and smashed it all to pieces I put it in a box just to say don't think that we will never be here we can do what we want so I decided to leave the country I was um how old am I by then let's work it out yeah uh I started all this Mischief when I was about 18 got arrested at 22. 23 uh um 16 years 17 years either under surveillance or in bad prisons got out and I'm under surveillance again um so how old so you're number 37 about 37. so that's already you know that's a big chunk of Life there but you've lost quite a lot of it to prison or surveillance well at no point now were you like okay and I wasn't a normal person uh really when I got out because of the experience of prison I'd already stripped most of Myself Away to deal with the death of the Superman yeah and and watching people be burnt to death in the place which was frequent somebody had contact glue pulled all over him and then satellite oh God Gods came in and the other one's standing there with a Tire swinging it around to make sure to let him burn let him burn Jesus Barry's name was testicles swollen like apples but black okay he died two hours later in hospital anyway um that was regular account to deal with that I'd already strip things away so when I got a little apartment when I got out and my mother had arranged things for me when they were there when they'd leave rude messages on my answer machine when they'd be behind me everywhere I thought all right I remember this David it never ends if you want to survive go back to the way you were you know in in the super max Anything Can Happen anytime but I didn't want to live like that um I got a fresh passport and most elaborate means um I could spend a week explaining how that came into existence but I went to Thailand to pick up some money I had three days there it was just before Christmas I left at that time on purpose so that they maybe I thought maybe it's their weak point that they want to have families in their life just at Christmas I've parked my mum's car and and left the keys somewhere for her nobody knew were you not meant to leave the country no no no licenses oh I see we're just going to take a minute here to talk about a sponsor of this show which is manscaped we were sent a package to try out by manscaped but Conor one of our producers is already a fan of the brand I believe yeah absolutely I've been using manscape for a little while now and Ben as you know it's that time of year people start asking you what you want for Christmas and I would say that a great gift for a man especially one that might have everything is the manscape performance package 4.0 so what's in that so you get the lawnmower 4.0 electric trimmer you get some anti-chafe boxer shorts which I can vouch for as well as a couple of other grooming products that smell great fantastic well it sounds like a five-star review from uconnor absolutely so Connor you were talking about the performance package there's loads of other great gift ideas such as the hygiene bundle all available at manscape.com com and all gifts that men will genuinely love to receive this Christmas if you are a listener of this podcast you get 20 off and free shipping all you have to do is go to manscape.com and use the code minutes that's manscape.com m-i-n-u-t-e-s minutes um so why are we doing that the risk is it worth it I didn't want to play anymore right I wanted to uh see if I could have a something resembling like a a real life just to find some corner of the world plan was to to return to London and oh so you were leaving forever I'm leaving forever okay I see nobody knew it um I had a couple of hundred thousand in Thailand I thought um which I returned to pick up um now I suppose people say this Crooks always say this most unusual circumstances led to my arrest well they were but then again they always are aren't they or you wouldn't be telling the story or you wouldn't have been arrested but um the USDA was involved lots of people lots of players uh no real drugs are found uh they did an airport sweep and listed me up for like an ounce of something and a false passport or two the money I had just disappeared into pockets but those when I arrived there I felt so free I knew this identity was good I just like floating on air really I slipped out of my protective mode you know that when we stick to the plan and all right you don't want to leave I should have even stayed there for six months just get some sensible view of the world but I I didn't uh and as I went to the airport I could see they were all around me and I melted back into the crowd and disappeared again I thought well that serves me right for changing that attitude I'd had from back in super max and I just glaze over concentrate on the details which I needed to do because when I went to make a phone call later at the travel agency uh waiting it was so depressing being thrown into the Thai prison and I had some idea what they'd be like um people I'd known had been arrested there I knew this much it never won a case you never get out well you get out and what were they arresting you for was it the the uh the passport um what did the the the money wasn't I mean what did they leave 4 000 or something like that right and there are airports we put um I saw the guy walking in with it in a plastic bag you know whatever people throw on the floor before they go through security there was a bit of hash this usual bits of weed but what they really wanted was um this 25 grams of heroin because that would finish me off a policeman um Australian one said was that yours yeah yeah sure it was he said I didn't think so what would you be carrying around that for I mean if it was 10 kilos I might understand but but that was enough the death penalty and was it yours no no no so where where would that come from if you do they do a sweep every afternoon at five o'clock they get tons of it right I get you know nervous passengers go up and then they change their minds and they throw it in the toilet too and were they just did do you think they believed it was yours or do you think they were just going this is we need to give him this bit no no I think they were using it hoping to that would be good to hold and maybe they could get something else find out what I was up to who I was seeing because I had met um somebody who's whose uncle was a big player right so there was there was I think they were optimistic there might be more Camp come out of it but but there wasn't but what difference did it make and I wasn't really worried about um those drugs or the death penalty I wanted to die anyway frankly my first escape plans from there had this I imagine getting out to find the Privacy to kill myself right I wanted to go to the dusa Tony Hotel I knew Which floor and where to get onto the roof I'd taken photographs from there many years before um they were you simply couldn't get a moment's piece dormitories with 150 guys in them screaming all night um we can't even take a crap in peace in the Thai prison We're Not Afraid though of what killing myself well no I mean I don't know being brutalized by the guards or the inmates so well I knew enough about Thailand to to know that it was a little more comic than than bad there were very bad things happen they used to um they've beaten people a couple of people get beaten to death every day there but it's a very big prison we have to get that in proportion I only wish they wouldn't use the food trolley to take the dead bodies out because um you know they don't clean them up um and could you speak the language or were you quite it was a quite different communication uh not really uh and the few languages that uh pitch up in my travels I always found that even if you know them it's better to pretend you don't okay um because they'll talk about you behind your back you know certainly didn't live it on there was I I just couldn't see any point I'd gone to such elaborate precautions on this trip um it just shouldn't have happened and I even got away from the airport and still it happened oh all that confidence that I'll figure a way out I didn't care anymore I just had enough um and I remember seeing an old guy there if you had to go to court they put change on you and um you'd line up on the ground now this old guy I was looking at him because I don't know why a big soundtrack went past he had the presence of mind to push his head under that sand truck and oh it twisted it around popped like a watermelon being dropped on the ground oh my God guys very annoyed told the trustees to get that thing away out of sight was that nice thing called it I thought you Brave bastard you yeah you've got the guts to do that was it not quite a disturbing thing to witness no it was shocking because if you haven't seen it kind of thing up close and I happen to be looking um it was uh but that that's how I felt about it but I was saved In The End by a con man and people say a lot of bad things about economy they do yes they do and they uh you can't be trusted uh they are rottenness and they will cheat you just because they're the Scorpion that's in their nature uh but sometimes they're just what you need and this rather smooth um Bostonian American um who spoke Thai and really knew his way around and I you know I thought the somewhere in this huge prison there'd be an enclave of rich and corrupt foreigners with loads of money and there'd be luxuries it wasn't there was nobody of any importance in there you know a couple of big sacrifices had been made but um a couple of very rich policemen who were in the hospital in intensive care but other than that it was it was just um the people who reached the absolute bottom Drifters in Asia who did run after run and then got sacrificed to the machine they'd get about four jobs a big Syndicate there operating careers had run four times bang they'd shot them to the police they'd be gone oh God they will turn told the same story and it was Joe it was this guest house it was such and such identical and um and and at this point had you been sentenced to death had you received oh no no no I I was trying to avoid that yeah once I came to my senses because the the Boston con had so many wonderful schemes medical thing to get me bail and know some way of a escape with a go to court I get snatched from there I had villains come over and and scope out the court too because there was a way I thought of getting out of there from the lift that took you up to the the building uh snatched from the middle as you go down changed into a different set of clothes but they all got scared thing about um some of our most loved uh and fearless villains they're pretty good in the local manner but you throw them into a place like that where people carry machine guns and shoot at will just for the hell of it not so confident they like the upper edge of being snakes um so I couldn't convince anybody to really help and it was just as well um and two and a half years passed there in this prison it's a long time it was I sort of perked up a little bit pulled myself together started exercising um got a couple of ATM cards over hadn't my favorite god um he was in charge of the the building bought myself a room renovated um so you had you bought a room within the prison that was just for you rented that's rented right you know and is that an official thing that you're allowed to do right there are places in the world where it's official right but you had an influx of money that you could pay for special treats you could survive there on um less than 500 pounds a month and be king oh wow was this the 70s or the 80s now by the way we're into um 90 495 19 the 495 because what's reported about you is that during the 80s you were a multi-millionaire um is that accurate um now what do we call a multi-millionaires a young halfway with a million and a quarter on a glass coffee table and looks around the living room and thinks I've got to get a sofa one of these days um oh goes to the car auctions in the morning buys a big yank tank with a 427 Chevy engine in it um drives it around makes his own car parking spaces you know we're smashing the front in backing the other one pushing the other cars out of the way um oh stoned off my head most of the time uh if I wasn't stunned enough I'd take a few mandracks just to colludes icing on the cake um so I didn't take care of the money and the money didn't take care of me so I guess I'm like the reason I the reason I asked was because it must have been quite a stark change going from a very rich existence to basically somewhere where you basically couldn't pay for anything initially and it was a very poor existence but I guess from what you're saying there it's not like you felt like you were Rich at the time um I've made that contrast a few times when I had my first big arrest I couldn't as I was in a cold near lightless cell of blue stone and horse hair mattress about two inches thick and wrecking a piss I would think back to the night before when I had my important to tell in huge bed and Irish linen sheets and swimming pool out there and um and we had to kind of shake off the contrast but that rubber banding must must have been hard to take because it's you're going from basically the aspiration of almost everyone where you're talking about just buying cars outright and having a swimming pool to a piss stinking bed you know it must be it was you know it's odd thing about it was providing I could see a way out a work a way out I didn't so much mind oh okay um I really trained myself to expect my whatever world I built up and and this happened several times I've done it five times had a new identity New Life new surroundings even new people and dang they're gone and every time it got worse um and there was even Thailand was desperately important because even though it was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it um you know I was somebody that nobody minded killing um so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah there's nothing like the prospect of being executed by a machine gun which is the way they did it God is that what it would have been wow yeah you know oh they'd have three guards all with a bit of string on the trigger and they'd all pull it once so that none of them could be condemned in the Buddhist sense of sin oh they don't even actually right I see it caused the bullet that finished you off oh I see so you're in the Thai prison you've been sentenced to uh rather unpleasant death penalty um how did you start coming up with this famous plan for escaping um desperation it was the last plan that looked like it was going to work um there were probably about 20 plans considered um everything from being the prison held I've since found out it holds 22 000 people oh my God in 10 sub prisons uh there's a women's section there's a young offenders there's a special reminder a drug unit all of that um just a wild place it has everything it even had a prisoner-run shop where you could extract you could borrow money against your account and cash anyway um one of the plans involved being welded into a VW Combi van in the prisons Auto Workshop which would be picked up early Monday morning and I'd be driven out and that another one was um there were several courtroom ones and you couldn't just pay your way out no no it's just you could pay to have a mobile phone which in those days was a rare thing but they were around um you could pay for a bottle of clong uh whiskey you could pay I'm sure you could pay to get a a girl in your room if you could work out what a room was that a whole section full of ladyboys there and got a building full of them they used to open it up on Saturdays so um you could pay for anything but not to leave they couldn't cover that and they couldn't trust each other you would need 25 30 different guards paid off and and the gods of visitors I mean too many guides no that wouldn't work and they looked at it as a kind of betrayal only if I saw two escapes attempts there one group of uh straight kids and a Singaporean got out of their cell incredibly turned themselves into the sleeping God when they'd all lied to each other about what they didn't have you know the ropes and ways out because they're it was so outraged that they'd spoiled the guys jobs they beat them to death slowly tortured them over three months to death having put them in little code lockers the soy they call them drag them out in elephant chains every day and batter them senseless uh internal bleeding usually did it um look I've got a bowl of rice and a painting to poo in that was it um even the water was it was just too horrible so if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off even my Swedish friends Sten the Viking he backed out at the last minute I couldn't get people to go with me all the other plants had fallen to bits because they depended on other people I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars and I needed equipment for that and here's a really important point I guess as bad as this world is you've got to try to find good people if you ask somebody if you asked your friend yeah and and you're finished you'll manage to get a phone call and say friend it's been here um I need you to get um I don't know four hacksaw blades and cut them into the dowel rods of a of a poster and then paint it all up and send it in a huge package with this that cable ties gaffer tape but disguise all that how many people are going to do it turn around wouldn't believe it Ben called me what his neck yeah he's screwed but anyway he wouldn't believe but he wants me to do this that now people don't do it but Michael on the other hand our business partner wouldn't even let me explain he hadn't heard from me in 18 months he said David don't explain I'm sure we could get cut off tell me the important part now where do I have to be and what do I have to bring no that's a friend um and so I've always tried to do the same for the others that I've known like that um but um I did get the equipment together that I needed and everything um about escapes from a big prison is not like your hope it's going to be you know I turned it out walked around the streets and it had streets inside it um and timed it with my trusty Casio and it was so I knew roughly how long it would take to get me but the night's a different world I'm a prisoner I'm only used to noise during the day even the fan chopping around in the Cell at night it's so quiet everything I did squeaked and rattled and twisted I came across a panel that had to be a nail had to come out and that and they'll protest it and scream their wrench out of the way it took um uh seven or eight worlds uh sorry seven or eight walls to cross over I say worlds because they really were every building was a different thing and I got lost and I went past the terminal AIDS Ward that building hundreds of guys all die and I could smell it before I got there because this necrotic Rotting Flesh and I couldn't resist looking in I'm carrying this huge long ladder made out of bamboo poles and fake picture frames gaffer taped along the center [Music] um and I looked up and I saw all these little faces in the Moonlight wrapped in so much pain and despair they didn't have the energy to cry out to the guards if they'd been in any other prisoners they would have the trustees there were absolute scum of the earth had whistled little uniforms sell the drugs one day and the rest of the guys for it the next all of that um and it was only by um well I only got to the outer wall by Dawn and if somebody had been with me I wouldn't have made it either you wouldn't have no imagine I've taken all night to get there and at each point where this something was unexpected I've had to dream up something and I get a little basic toolkit and I sometimes I'd have to sacrifice part of my ladder to make a hook to pull down barbed wire and the technique for using the thing was awkward you had to prop it walk up drop down the other side so you're twisting over the walls like that manual is entirely barbed wire so I had to go underneath it covered in mud the the last one was really too high and there was a Mars bar Creek the the moat that ran around I did you know if I was with somebody else we'd be arguing wouldn't we oh Spa Creek oh it was full of turds bombing around it was caught out of the sewer yeah you did ask um illustrative okay we're just gonna take a quick break from the show to talk about a sponsor of this episode better help better help is an online Counseling Service which connects people to therapists and counselors I'm joined by one of our producers bryony is counseling something you've had experience with do you know what it's interesting because when I was growing up the same kind of challenges in life would happen but people wouldn't necessarily go to therapy or talk about therapy and I feel like since uh maybe my late teens early 20s people are starting to go to therapy and talking about it and I have definitely used it in my life and it's been massively beneficial same and do you because I think one of the things that people often mistake they think it's just for big things yeah but what's the other experience of that thing I think life always throws you know small challenges and large challenges and sometimes the big things need talking about but actually you know starting a new school or starting a new job can rile up that same level of anxiety and it's just really helpful to be able to talk to someone about it who is completely impartial not involved in your life and just kind of a safe space I guess to just say whatever you want to say you completely agree as the world's largest therapy service better help as much 3 million people with professionally licensed and vetted therapists available 100 online plus it's affordable just fill out a brief questionnaire to match with a therapist if things aren't clicking you can easily switch to a new therapist anytime it couldn't be simpler no waiting rooms no traffic no endless searching for the right therapist learn more and save 10 of your first month at betterhelp.com minutes with that's betterhelp help help.com minutes with um now there was one way of oh Beyond marsburg create this a foot and a half of land before this huge huge wall you've got to get a ladder that's too heavy to carry too imbalanced to do anything with but you've got a bit of rope how do you get it to the other side of Mars bar which has all got tangled barb wire in that so it'll catch get it in place and up against the wall when you've got no ground to to walk on now there is a way and uh I guess people have to listen to me describe it either to you or in my book okay fine but too long to tell here sure but um I could see the glow of dawn as I got to the top which had electricity running through it too just to make it the top of the wall dead yeah yeah wow but um my friend who um was in there a bit of a technician is to belong to the anarchist Society in in Britain how would you belong to a society that has rules when you anyway putting that aside he did tell me that it would only be 240 volts but to be careful um and just managed to get over that and because the original plan was to um oh there was an outer moat beyond that of 20 meters I had my clothes ready to go into a plastic bag swim the moat but just as well I didn't um because all it turned out all the guards houses were over the other side of that moat this would not be a place to go but I cleaned myself up threw some clothes on and I one of the jobs that I didn't do but I was supposed to be doing was working in the Umbrella Factory so I paid a local boy to do it um I've got a pop-up umbrella from there I thought you know you really get a perspective about I want to just simple discrimination but being an outsider a foreigner the way sometimes people feel picked upon you know we were called the white trash and we were in in Chains and everything so I knew I had to cover my face in the popular did it and I managed to get to a place where a passport was hidden and to the airport and still had a working ATM card to get me out of the country into Singapore so did you end up with the umbrella did you walk out the front gate yeah I did I had some long trousers on now in their prisoners are not allowed to wear them so I had some khaki pants I thought they might as I walked around the the narrow path to the front gate it's still mote but a little Bridge I thought another figure it's a guard arriving late and sneaking in and I did I felt like Ripley an alien uh looking at thinking lucky lucky this is where it all ends doesn't it and I'm thinking that every moment and looking up and there was just enough light rain to justify the umbrella yeah I would learn later that was actually the not a rain from the gods but the spittle of their laughter because they had worse things in mind for me later on I mean it's so it's you know how many people are you aware how many people had escaped from that prison up to that point was it some every year or was it very infrequent none um the ties sometimes ran away when they were doing the gardens in Chains outside but Escape From Within um I'd known of in 20 years people could recall two attempts no foreigners um and they didn't trust the foreigners that's why they put you on the third floor right quite rightly yes and and how long had it taken you from like the beginning of the uh I started cutting at um 11 45 I paid a lot to get a light switch in there normally the lights are on all the time um okay and I said to my favorite guard oh yeah Ponting or whatever his name was I can't sleep with that thing I'll put a light switch in um um now they didn't say it as corruption or bribe taking they thought I'm doing this nice guy a favor and I'll be lucky because of it that's a very big thing over there you know if I get caught I'm unlucky then so they can batter me to death I mean sure it's kind of self-justifies any action that a human being might take so he started cutting around eight for 11 45 11 45 okay it's quite close through one bar by two in the morning oh God stencia listen we'll go on the next note I looked around and Kevin the American from Hawaii I didn't even know this was happening uh Mirage the Indian I know he's going to talk the next morning he was kakaria LA pantaloni right in the cell never mind holding out and not saying anything he would have it would have been finished I never would have made it and I guess I could have seen the missing bars potentially but I learned later on I actually caught up with somebody who was in there Scottish guy um he was there for selling ecstasy to the Two well-off Sons and Daughters of wealthy policemen anyway um he remembers they the guards couldn't figure that I'd left oh um he said David they ran around the the prison calling out your name it was Daniel Westlake while I was there Daniel Daniel they okay that somebody drew their attention to the cut bar in there yeah my Scottish friend said they the gods wanted they thought that okay he's got out he's angry about something uh Daniel but he's not actually he'll never get out he couldn't get it they never found the the ladder down the front wall until much much later so for um uh uh only one of them said oh we better check the airport they sent a couple of guys down there um just a little bit late and you were gone by then only just and remember man you've got a passport from a Chinese connection that you barely know but kind of like the cut of his jib but are you gonna put your life on the line on that and at every moment you're handing it over you know like the look of it yeah they don't like the look of it they're typing it up and you're thinking they got onto the computer have they done that bit uh have they entered my arrival was this I knew it was freshly stolen or sold off was only a few weeks old uh I mean not new was had only gone missing a few weeks earlier so it was still good but very nerve-wracking and I didn't have a photo I had to use my old um uh radio operators license that had a photograph in it to get reproduced into this thing so it was a bit grainy um and even on the plane it was delay and takeoff oh God and a mumbling Captain oh sorry um we we have a thing with one passenger I just asked what thing exactly soon enough thwomp doors to manual oh but I've got an hour you know looking at this passport I don't like it get to Singapore but I make it through so you got to Singapore yeah but you did end up going back to prison not a Thai prison but a different prison he's suggesting uh I did something wrong well I'm hoping you're going to tell me um no well okay uh I didn't stay in Singapore long because um I sat there in the hotel room unable to digest food not prepared by my own cook sure I in the hotel room in Singapore I realized you could work out who had left that day if they'd flown my air by simply going to the airport and children you work it out yourselves at home you check everybody who's left separate the foreigners hmm go a step further let's keep the Canadian and American the British the Australian New Zealand all the English-speaking passport Society um just to you know reduce the numbers take those names check with the embassies any of these names belong to lost or stolen passports that have been reported yeah five of them because that's Bangkok you know not the only Mischief maker there but nonetheless um they probably knew I could be who was I Charles McClintock hmm sorry Charles I had to borrow your passport but it was an essential cause but you're not wanted anymore of course are you no but I did get an unwelcome knock at the door some years ago uh by the police who um would it be to go excuse me Westminster Court known for the terrorist cases extradition or parking fights wow I'd lift the car anywhere lately so it was going to be one of the other two and it was extradition to Thailand I fought that case for two years and um it was difficult um but managed to effectively win in the end so the ties have dropped that one and I can't be taken back there I'm not wanted anywhere um I can nobody can do what they want but um I I'm not I haven't got anything pending I'm not in business I'm a bit cautious I even got sent something in the the mail a few years ago and I thought it was some gift from some halfway ambitious wombat in in Pakistan sending me a bit of dope thinking oh yeah there's a gift you might like that connection made no I mean people had my address all around the world ever since Danny Dyer um it turned out to be more complicated than that but um very dangerous for me to walk into a courtroom so I don't even imagine you're me and knock at the door oh here's something for you Ben you don't like the look of it you refuse it you're in court no matter why did you refuse that was it your name no you was up The Jig was up proof ladies and gentlemen oh you accept it ah you accepted it proof ladies and gentlemen wife saying to me Jeanette and whom I met in Pakistan years ago and she was there to fish out her husband on a two-ton hash deal he didn't make it anyway um she said throw the thing away I'm thinking in court again ladies and gentlemen he threw the stuff away I can't win so very cautious about all that kind of stuff um fair enough but I take it you won't be going for a holiday to Thailand anytime soon I didn't think so okay so how many do you know off the top of your head of your life how many years of your life have you spent in prison ultimately I did add it up once I'm 66 now and I suppose I've spent um but 22 years the thing that occurs to me and I met you before and I thought the same thing is like you obviously extremely intelligent extremely resourceful it can't be well but well anyway but do you regret the choices you made in terms of do you see those 22 years in prison as something you had no control over it's just the way the dice rolled or do you see them as a mistake on your part um worse than a mistake mistake suggest you didn't know uh where you were going wrong I was taking those steps into uh of a precipice that I'd defied there is no gravity I said I said I will work out something before I hit the ground um when I was It was kind of in stages when I was young it was just arrogance and and showing off and later on when everything was destroyed it was kind of I'd scraped away all of my life and would just go on um then in the third stage it was escaping away from places rebuilding up and being weakened every time it was taken away again um and do I regret it yeah I'm sure I um no you know some people say oh yeah but David just smuggled everything on Earth you scumbag you you know um think of the lives you've destroyed and the people you've heard ah and I go to start to explain that it's not quite black and white uh I mean I've had drug habits myself that I've carelessly allowed um but I thought what's the point anything I say we just sound like self-justification so well don't listen to me then you know but things that have happened that have taught me a lot it's interesting you say that because one of a lot of the comments on our well on the first video we did a lot of the comments where people saying someone needs to make a movie about this guy but a lot of the other comments were people saying he's so charismatic and likable but he must be a really dangerous person to have been involved with all these worlds for so long and um we've interviewed a couple of drug smugglers and I would say they're the ones that I've met have been the ones that probably are more someone you'd see is traditionally quite an obviously dangerous person you come across as very Charming charismatic roguish where do you see yourself on that scale do you see yourself as someone who was dangerous or do you see yourself as someone who's just moved from area to area as it occurred um kind of like this a dangerous I suppose what most people see that and you know if somebody was a problem for me would I find the best option to have them killed or not but really there always was a kind of Vestige of that's a failure if you can't think of anything better than to have them killed then then then what are you doing there's a million clever ways of solving your problems and that besides which there's always going to be people you can't kill everybody um not only that who killed the killers that you've got to do the killing you know you know they always say that about the quiet ones and all of that but it was the people who bothered to put up a smoke screen um they're establishing a um later Alibi a courtroom personality but I met him he didn't seem bothered by all of that why would he have him killed and those are the ones that um seem to be more dangerous and if I was such a dangerous person like that I certainly been absolute fool to break from that mold and say otherwise wouldn't it very true David it's great to see you again thank you so much for coming in always a pleasure yeah and I've Got a Feeling we'll be seeing you again at some point as well it's possible it does may cross thank you I'll be like oh my God they're in my head they they know they know that was a song and so they put that song on the radio and it's all everything revolves around me or you know and this happened well sometimes happens today you know I'm I'm thinking of someone in my head someone under there like on the street	style it was yeah and um behind the safe were three discs and you had to line them up and they'd once they got in they'd take the door with them so that the opposition the safe makers wouldn't know how they'd got in and it was a a constant battle between the manufacturers and them because they've come across new safes which had Special Metals in it that was mixed like a a crunchy nut bar very hard metals very soft ones so the drill bit would slip on them snap and you got a sense that this was almost like a game where um they would try something then try to beat them and they were very loyal to each other um they they never spoke out of school as it were um when I got involved with them I'd only have to if I had trouble I don't have to make one phone call and people would appear out of nowhere and I thought yeah this this is kind of better than the treacherous boys school that I I grew up in and how old were you at this point um 19 years old 19. so were you thinking you were making a conscious decision to move into illegal activities or at that point in time and at that point in the world did it feel like more of a kind of a bit of roguish fun would you say I was drawn to it anyway because	7	5	3	style it was yeah and um behind the safe were three discs and you had to line them up and they'd once they got in they'd take the door with them so that the opposition the safe makers wouldn't know how they'd got in and it was a a constant battle between the manufacturers and them because they've come across new safes which had Special Metals in it that was mixed like a a crunchy nut bar very hard metals very soft ones so the drill bit would slip on them snap and you got a sense that this was almost like a game where um they would try something then try to beat them and they were very loyal to each other um they they never spoke out of school as it were um when I got involved with them I'd only have to if I had trouble I don't have to make one phone call and people would appear out of nowhere and I thought yeah this this is kind of better than the treacherous boys school that I I grew up in	how old were you at this point um 19 years old 19. so were you thinking you were making a conscious decision to move into illegal activities or at that point in time and at that point in the world did it feel like more of a kind of a bit of roguish fun would you say	4,5,6	0,3,4	4	5	6	0	3	4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyZyHHexx7s	4,101	oyZyHHexx7s	2022-12-07 00:00:00	even though I was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off I couldn't get people to go with me I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars [Music] it's great to have you back David obviously we've met before but for anyone who doesn't know who you are for new listeners or new viewers could you give us a brief introduction to what you are famous for well I suppose uh most well known for uh having escaped to prison in Thailand in Bangkok uh the biggest one they have there clong Prim it uh wasn't something I did frivolously I was going to be executed within a couple of weeks so it seemed like a good time to leave okay now um we're going to get into that in a bit more detail but one thing that I remember about you from last time is you're the most incredible talker and we took away the inter the initial interview we've done with you and ended up having to make it into two long episodes because you have a lot of different very colorful uh experiences so do forgive me if I Jimmy us through oh no I can understand that I mean the only place I never talk is in the police station I always like some of my uh work colleagues took um what was it one slap to get them talking but five to shut them up oh okay so let's go right back to the beginning um you were born in the UK and then I believe you emigrated to Australia well um it was all a family thing yes I was born in basewater in London I spent the first few years of my life then uh there but my parents broke up divorced and I went with my mother to Australia with my older sister so I don't have any really very early memories of London apart from some old eight millimeter movie footage of me learning to walk in Hyde Park my dad was waving a five pound note in front of my face and I was making every effort to grab it I continued that behavior for many many years afterwards returned to Australia um finished some schooling um got really contrasting jobs I worked in an adult Agency for a while um but also before that I was got a job in a cinema now it was the and under literally an underground place but it was there that I got introduced to a bunch of crooks um some of the girls there had boyfriends that I used to run down with um strange boxes or bits of money or fur coats and then wink at me bolt out the back door pursued by often policemen undercover ones of course whom we'd misdirect somewhere but that Circle they were um safe crackers and they really didn't trust Outsiders and didn't much like the sound of me but because of I demonstrated a couple of things by being look everybody was really very anti-authority then I I don't mean hostile but for people now they they wouldn't have experienced that in the uh late 60s 70s we were so snotty and arrogant we really thought we were going to change the world and that um the laws were all nothing and the way to change them was to break them well that was the kind of vanity we had so um when I got to know the safe crackers uh better there was something really interesting I mean I didn't like the idea you know stealing things seemed a bit tacky but on the other hand they kind of all needed the money from the from their backgrounds and everything but that wasn't so much the the interest it was the technicalities of getting into these things okay um they used to drill through the top um having anchored it with the drill with clamps and and put a kind of little lens inside a cystoscope used in medicine and watch the the wheels turning around this is the old kind of old-fashioned Hollywood style it was yeah and um behind the safe were three discs and you had to line them up and they'd once they got in they'd take the door with them so that the opposition the safe makers wouldn't know how they'd got in and it was a a constant battle between the manufacturers and them because they've come across new safes which had Special Metals in it that was mixed like a a crunchy nut bar very hard metals very soft ones so the drill bit would slip on them snap and you got a sense that this was almost like a game where um they would try something then try to beat them and they were very loyal to each other um they they never spoke out of school as it were um when I got involved with them I'd only have to if I had trouble I don't have to make one phone call and people would appear out of nowhere and I thought yeah this this is kind of better than the treacherous boys school that I I grew up in and how old were you at this point um 19 years old 19. so were you thinking you were making a conscious decision to move into illegal activities or at that point in time and at that point in the world did it feel like more of a kind of a bit of roguish fun would you say I was drawn to it anyway because it was interesting and um I didn't really have a lot of fear I think sometimes what we do or don't do is depending on how scary it seems yeah agreed um I was born with a low resting heart rate as they say you know if it's below 70 you're a risk taker I don't know why that is when the safe crackers retired they put some of their money into growing little crops of weed and so on but profit margin is is only through importing because like the price difference is cheap in the source countries expensive where it sells so because they couldn't do it they were almost throwing it down like a challenge like we don't know anybody who can do this and I thought well I traveled a lot um I didn't think it was going to be impossible um I thought the odds were in my phone and I looked it up I went to the library and sort of researched it a bit and where were you thinking which country Well they um they were very keen to get some um hashish from India or Nepal or somewhere okay I could see um it's bulky and there's packing problems so um they funded me and off I sailed now the operation my first operation was so deplorably bad I'm barely 20 years old I my cunning plan which involved a big piece of exported Machinery which had weights in it so the weights would come out the cash would go in it would weigh the same being returned and it was a piece of Television equipment or something that went South immediately when I didn't realize that I would have to pay a huge deposit in duty to even bring it in as a demo machine so forget that I ended up in short meeting a guy in a money exchange section of a bank I was there because I ran out and I had to send asking for more from the boys and I met him and he wasn't involved in any of this but he soon became that just he managed to get me six kilos of hash I took the 1952 ancient Grundig radio from his parents house the Shelf there guttered the thing like a fish wrapped it up and he had to get cling film in those days think of this before you travel arriving with a suitcase full of cling film doesn't look good I suppose but uh wedged it in there and then just flew back to Sydney now you can imagine what happened well just before we get on to what happened you know one thing that strikes me is what year was would this have been this was uh 77 77 so it's amazing think that back then if someone was going to India for the first time now they could go on Google Maps they could research it or they could find out who they could find phone numbers contacts they could be put in contact with people before they've even set off whereas you must have at that age at that time been going in slightly blind you know touching down in a foreign country that you didn't know well no contacts was that not quite daunting well what was more um troubling with um how everything would fail and then I'd have to um you know come up with another plan what context somebody I knew um um there were no bank robber who joined the hare krishnas and fled to India right and I had his name and and the ashram in Delhi where where he was was supposed to have been uh I didn't really catch up with him on that trip but okay sure so so then you get back to Australia with your radio that is now full to the brim with and I get stopped you you did get stopped okay I could stop because uh I'm I'm on a British passport um and it's the only trip I've ever done and I'm that age I'd stop me oh fatherly type was at the Customs desk now the the systems were different in those days um it was Sydney too which is very and certainly was very relaxed back then right he opened the suitcase uh there was nothing in there except a pair of socks there's a towel wrapping up this massive radio which he lifted up so it was buckled at the sides little red packets poking out oh it smelled like a hedgehog for a patchouliers okay not much of a disguise um he let me go he uh put it back looked around to make sure that none of his workmates were watching him being so soft um and then turned to me and said you're going back there you're going to do this again [Music] all right you can take your we'll call it a radio shall we get out of here what he thought I realized later was that he didn't want the whole grammar of the day arresting me filling out papers and it would have been a a long time plus I guess being a dad he thought if I he's obviously an idiot you're right if I send him into Gladiator Academy or it wasn't really like that in those days but certainly contact center um the prison what am I doing um well I guess uh he was hopeful you know I whilst out of there must have smuggling me but I experienced then what um I got years later which was kind of a real Downer after you know having got nowhere with The Hare krishnas and and cultivated the shoeshine boys and had my money stolen at Amex uh by some Scallywags in Delhi all sorts of Little Adventures over there in India and nonetheless made it it's kind of like that's all there is to it I I didn't really want to give it to anyone um sort of felt like you didn't have a big moment of no a bit of money that came earlier that's handy right uh I paid back what I owed and settled up for for the next thing so but once that was started when you sorry I interrupted you go oh I was just going to say it to finish it even though they'd funded me the guys were very surprised to see me back but at all at all oh you made it oh because some of them say oh you'll just run away with it uh even if that's what he's doing who knows what he's doing you know and then I could see sitting around you can imagine there's like a table full of well like three guys and then a kind of Darkness shrouded over that room I thought uh it's not valuable enough to kill me you know what what is this mood why did you bring that well that's what you've been talking about yeah you could have loaded that with cane or smack or something you guys we say nothing but terrible things about a class or heavy drugs that don't want to know about it right and I could read then that wait a minute there we're all might be guys together and having fun getting into the safe and whatnot but there was a kind of different it was something a very strong lesson I'd have to be thoughtful about that um there could be times where things didn't work out not necessarily that my safety was at risk I didn't see it that way but I knew that there were Ruthless People right okay yeah so you got an insight into a mindset that had been a bit below the surface it was there I just chose not to see it but um I then went on to you know refine everything and Vary everything and then did you after that first time did you were you still working sort of for them or did you immediately well when you wake up on your own when things um I picked up and there was enough money around out of uh out of strategy rather than just being a nice guy I gave my partners a kind of thank you bonus from the next thing that I did but I did that all myself right so it was almost like a yeah separation and I wanted to go back to the my hippie friends anyway they were a little less it wasn't that they were scary but but that didn't last because they were maybe friends might be all right but they will certainly careless and stupid but from from that point onwards after that initial Journey was that you then into the world of smuggling I thought this won't last forever you only need one setback and that changes it I probably made quite a lot of money and I could have got out but and I should have gotta you know I have couriers a leak from one of the the couriers brought the police to me and here was the problem with it it was at first I scattered now I was married to my first wife then clearly Italian girl her dad had restaurants I grabbed her I had a secret drawer with extra passports in it some money ended up four plane Journeys later in um off the Bahamas had the skipper of a day rent yacht and take me out to an island and nobody had ever been on before it was empty sat there on a towel I thought hmm the level of surveillance I had means it's quite a big operation they're funded and I checked with a lawyer before the bigger the money they spent the more determined they'll be stay away or go back I mean I don't know why would anybody do this uh well I wasn't broke um I didn't have to there was no pressure on me the more I went through the problems the more attractive the whole thing is uh she didn't like it much well again do you think because it was a puzzle to be solved because um arrogance really we've gone from basically someone who was kind of mildly interested in making a group of people meeting a group of um safe hackers to someone who pulled off their first thing and then we've jumped to someone who has people working for them and and now is no longer taking the risk themselves now the police are on to you and you're on this desert island well small island and you're thinking about going back into it was this like a turning point in your life in terms of going you know because the other option I suppose was to go straight but were you just more it was that just not an option for you I'd gone to my lawyer Ralph he said look this is what I picked up because I my travel agent had tipped me to a couple of detectives that come in he traveled again while I was in on the phone okay uh actually they're all innocent really yeah you know and and gave him a long list of names um they wanted travel details for and a telephone number which I traced uh to um a private office building which had been rented by state and federal police they were so distrusting of their own they didn't want to even run this thing from um regular police headquarters my lawyer said well what you sure it's you said Ralph look at the list of names there's 30 there I'm 26 of them passports are a lot easier to get back then than there now so you had 26 aliases that you were traveling on yeah right okay um and I described where they were he said David they are funded well they're not bear this in mind but although I what they won't get me with anything they're funded you think they're going to walk away after a year and say oh sorry boss you spend a million dollars and uh nothing doing they don't work like that but this is how stubborn I was I thought because he said the only thing you can do is disappear for at least a couple of years and then you can come back if that's what you want and of course I had justifications for it I thought okay I'll I'll build up a bit more money and then I'll disappear but um it was only after things went terribly badly that I realized I shouldn't play like this anymore what it was they um because the challenge just kept coming so now so did you go back to Australia I went back to Australia and and when I retired within three months right but they weren't waiting for you to arrest you or no no they wanted they wanted something solid okay [Music] um I won't go into the long machinations of it all but um somebody we knew uh was getting things from a Thai Courier and he got arrested he sold us out to the police so that that The Courier would now come to us and I always have some solid evidence right he would bring things but we got away with that because that was another challenge but the police got tired of all this arrested me no drugs of course so it was a difficult case the worst kind of case is that where there's no solid evidence and in a way it's better to go to court where you've got a Smoking Gun and a dead body on the ground because at least you know where you are but where there's nothing tangible and it's conspiracies and this was a huge trial six months long what is that 119 Witnesses 6 000 pages of uh telephone intercept massive thing won't made it worse too and I think this was um would change things for me um the pressure was put on for confessions but it'd be silly to confess and you can't confess on somebody else's behalf can you that's not nice um lots of the family were arrested even my mother was taken and it went oh wow just to put pressure on uh did she know what you did oh she had an idea right okay I mean I used to have bin liners full of money I'd leave behind the fridge yeah you don't get that in the cinema do you not done not a very good day you know uh because they arrested so many people now when they arrested our wives and my business partner Michael his wife just had a baby it was we had to do a deal here I didn't want to but I was going to say I said to Michael look I know you don't like it but we'll play to it get the girls out of trouble we'll Escape that's a good challenge that way [Music] um but unfortunately um the intelligence section put an arsonist Informer in with the girls to get some information her fire was lit uh burnt down the women's prison and my wife and my business partner's wife was were killed uh that's awful and so the Informer that they put in there yeah why did they pick an arsonist for Daniel writer name was I don't know why I remember that after 40 years God so that's quite a big that was oh and and just uh to make things worse the story put about town to scare the careers into talking because they wouldn't speak was that we'd we were killing off all the witnesses and starting with our own family where does that come from um we ended up in a super max prison nightmarish electronic zoo with two inch glass and electronic doors and insane inmates held 48 death rate 27 people a year died in that little supermax going to court in Chains with a SWAT team taking it it was so so much Michael fell to pieces he was just a wreck he didn't make it uh he survived the jail but died when he got out the only way I could survive all of that was to strip away everything I you know I found myself in the supermax concrete everything's concrete the bed everything there's no everything's still just with the tape player from my lure listening to the the tapes the bug tapes the microphones in my house I could play back my life for the last six months clearly you're moving from room to room taking telephone calls she was crying about something I didn't know what I never know and David that's gone immerse yourself in the worst that they have you will not survive this otherwise trial sort of went not so good acquitted of most things but convicted enough 10 years difficult imprisonment but I the only way I could deal with it was to say did I want revenge that was more my fault I brought this about I got her in there I mean a family of a very kind to me about it considering I wouldn't be but it doesn't matter in Chains and super Mech strip it all away it is nothing everyone is a potential enemy everything it just nothing mattered win the day win the night I mean this is a place we had to fill in a book to get some toilet paper the showers were in front of them in a glass box um if you went on a visit they'd zip you up and lock you in a suit so you had no pockets there was after that and her death I felt like there was nothing that could affect me you're wrong about these things you know we're human but I got out and they were there they even visited me to say we'll be on you when you get out the police yeah we enjoyed the old days didn't you yeah I said pretending you know and just to make the point that they were there when I got out um I I'd done a whole lot of Woodwork in the prison in the last place I was at carving intricate things making these really great trick Chinese boxes with beeswax they intercepted the van that was taking it from the prison back to my house and smashed it all to pieces I put it in a box just to say don't think that we will never be here we can do what we want so I decided to leave the country I was um how old am I by then let's work it out yeah uh I started all this Mischief when I was about 18 got arrested at 22. 23 uh um 16 years 17 years either under surveillance or in bad prisons got out and I'm under surveillance again um so how old so you're number 37 about 37. so that's already you know that's a big chunk of Life there but you've lost quite a lot of it to prison or surveillance well at no point now were you like okay and I wasn't a normal person uh really when I got out because of the experience of prison I'd already stripped most of Myself Away to deal with the death of the Superman yeah and and watching people be burnt to death in the place which was frequent somebody had contact glue pulled all over him and then satellite oh God Gods came in and the other one's standing there with a Tire swinging it around to make sure to let him burn let him burn Jesus Barry's name was testicles swollen like apples but black okay he died two hours later in hospital anyway um that was regular account to deal with that I'd already strip things away so when I got a little apartment when I got out and my mother had arranged things for me when they were there when they'd leave rude messages on my answer machine when they'd be behind me everywhere I thought all right I remember this David it never ends if you want to survive go back to the way you were you know in in the super max Anything Can Happen anytime but I didn't want to live like that um I got a fresh passport and most elaborate means um I could spend a week explaining how that came into existence but I went to Thailand to pick up some money I had three days there it was just before Christmas I left at that time on purpose so that they maybe I thought maybe it's their weak point that they want to have families in their life just at Christmas I've parked my mum's car and and left the keys somewhere for her nobody knew were you not meant to leave the country no no no licenses oh I see we're just going to take a minute here to talk about a sponsor of this show which is manscaped we were sent a package to try out by manscaped but Conor one of our producers is already a fan of the brand I believe yeah absolutely I've been using manscape for a little while now and Ben as you know it's that time of year people start asking you what you want for Christmas and I would say that a great gift for a man especially one that might have everything is the manscape performance package 4.0 so what's in that so you get the lawnmower 4.0 electric trimmer you get some anti-chafe boxer shorts which I can vouch for as well as a couple of other grooming products that smell great fantastic well it sounds like a five-star review from uconnor absolutely so Connor you were talking about the performance package there's loads of other great gift ideas such as the hygiene bundle all available at manscape.com com and all gifts that men will genuinely love to receive this Christmas if you are a listener of this podcast you get 20 off and free shipping all you have to do is go to manscape.com and use the code minutes that's manscape.com m-i-n-u-t-e-s minutes um so why are we doing that the risk is it worth it I didn't want to play anymore right I wanted to uh see if I could have a something resembling like a a real life just to find some corner of the world plan was to to return to London and oh so you were leaving forever I'm leaving forever okay I see nobody knew it um I had a couple of hundred thousand in Thailand I thought um which I returned to pick up um now I suppose people say this Crooks always say this most unusual circumstances led to my arrest well they were but then again they always are aren't they or you wouldn't be telling the story or you wouldn't have been arrested but um the USDA was involved lots of people lots of players uh no real drugs are found uh they did an airport sweep and listed me up for like an ounce of something and a false passport or two the money I had just disappeared into pockets but those when I arrived there I felt so free I knew this identity was good I just like floating on air really I slipped out of my protective mode you know that when we stick to the plan and all right you don't want to leave I should have even stayed there for six months just get some sensible view of the world but I I didn't uh and as I went to the airport I could see they were all around me and I melted back into the crowd and disappeared again I thought well that serves me right for changing that attitude I'd had from back in super max and I just glaze over concentrate on the details which I needed to do because when I went to make a phone call later at the travel agency uh waiting it was so depressing being thrown into the Thai prison and I had some idea what they'd be like um people I'd known had been arrested there I knew this much it never won a case you never get out well you get out and what were they arresting you for was it the the uh the passport um what did the the the money wasn't I mean what did they leave 4 000 or something like that right and there are airports we put um I saw the guy walking in with it in a plastic bag you know whatever people throw on the floor before they go through security there was a bit of hash this usual bits of weed but what they really wanted was um this 25 grams of heroin because that would finish me off a policeman um Australian one said was that yours yeah yeah sure it was he said I didn't think so what would you be carrying around that for I mean if it was 10 kilos I might understand but but that was enough the death penalty and was it yours no no no so where where would that come from if you do they do a sweep every afternoon at five o'clock they get tons of it right I get you know nervous passengers go up and then they change their minds and they throw it in the toilet too and were they just did do you think they believed it was yours or do you think they were just going this is we need to give him this bit no no I think they were using it hoping to that would be good to hold and maybe they could get something else find out what I was up to who I was seeing because I had met um somebody who's whose uncle was a big player right so there was there was I think they were optimistic there might be more Camp come out of it but but there wasn't but what difference did it make and I wasn't really worried about um those drugs or the death penalty I wanted to die anyway frankly my first escape plans from there had this I imagine getting out to find the Privacy to kill myself right I wanted to go to the dusa Tony Hotel I knew Which floor and where to get onto the roof I'd taken photographs from there many years before um they were you simply couldn't get a moment's piece dormitories with 150 guys in them screaming all night um we can't even take a crap in peace in the Thai prison We're Not Afraid though of what killing myself well no I mean I don't know being brutalized by the guards or the inmates so well I knew enough about Thailand to to know that it was a little more comic than than bad there were very bad things happen they used to um they've beaten people a couple of people get beaten to death every day there but it's a very big prison we have to get that in proportion I only wish they wouldn't use the food trolley to take the dead bodies out because um you know they don't clean them up um and could you speak the language or were you quite it was a quite different communication uh not really uh and the few languages that uh pitch up in my travels I always found that even if you know them it's better to pretend you don't okay um because they'll talk about you behind your back you know certainly didn't live it on there was I I just couldn't see any point I'd gone to such elaborate precautions on this trip um it just shouldn't have happened and I even got away from the airport and still it happened oh all that confidence that I'll figure a way out I didn't care anymore I just had enough um and I remember seeing an old guy there if you had to go to court they put change on you and um you'd line up on the ground now this old guy I was looking at him because I don't know why a big soundtrack went past he had the presence of mind to push his head under that sand truck and oh it twisted it around popped like a watermelon being dropped on the ground oh my God guys very annoyed told the trustees to get that thing away out of sight was that nice thing called it I thought you Brave bastard you yeah you've got the guts to do that was it not quite a disturbing thing to witness no it was shocking because if you haven't seen it kind of thing up close and I happen to be looking um it was uh but that that's how I felt about it but I was saved In The End by a con man and people say a lot of bad things about economy they do yes they do and they uh you can't be trusted uh they are rottenness and they will cheat you just because they're the Scorpion that's in their nature uh but sometimes they're just what you need and this rather smooth um Bostonian American um who spoke Thai and really knew his way around and I you know I thought the somewhere in this huge prison there'd be an enclave of rich and corrupt foreigners with loads of money and there'd be luxuries it wasn't there was nobody of any importance in there you know a couple of big sacrifices had been made but um a couple of very rich policemen who were in the hospital in intensive care but other than that it was it was just um the people who reached the absolute bottom Drifters in Asia who did run after run and then got sacrificed to the machine they'd get about four jobs a big Syndicate there operating careers had run four times bang they'd shot them to the police they'd be gone oh God they will turn told the same story and it was Joe it was this guest house it was such and such identical and um and and at this point had you been sentenced to death had you received oh no no no I I was trying to avoid that yeah once I came to my senses because the the Boston con had so many wonderful schemes medical thing to get me bail and know some way of a escape with a go to court I get snatched from there I had villains come over and and scope out the court too because there was a way I thought of getting out of there from the lift that took you up to the the building uh snatched from the middle as you go down changed into a different set of clothes but they all got scared thing about um some of our most loved uh and fearless villains they're pretty good in the local manner but you throw them into a place like that where people carry machine guns and shoot at will just for the hell of it not so confident they like the upper edge of being snakes um so I couldn't convince anybody to really help and it was just as well um and two and a half years passed there in this prison it's a long time it was I sort of perked up a little bit pulled myself together started exercising um got a couple of ATM cards over hadn't my favorite god um he was in charge of the the building bought myself a room renovated um so you had you bought a room within the prison that was just for you rented that's rented right you know and is that an official thing that you're allowed to do right there are places in the world where it's official right but you had an influx of money that you could pay for special treats you could survive there on um less than 500 pounds a month and be king oh wow was this the 70s or the 80s now by the way we're into um 90 495 19 the 495 because what's reported about you is that during the 80s you were a multi-millionaire um is that accurate um now what do we call a multi-millionaires a young halfway with a million and a quarter on a glass coffee table and looks around the living room and thinks I've got to get a sofa one of these days um oh goes to the car auctions in the morning buys a big yank tank with a 427 Chevy engine in it um drives it around makes his own car parking spaces you know we're smashing the front in backing the other one pushing the other cars out of the way um oh stoned off my head most of the time uh if I wasn't stunned enough I'd take a few mandracks just to colludes icing on the cake um so I didn't take care of the money and the money didn't take care of me so I guess I'm like the reason I the reason I asked was because it must have been quite a stark change going from a very rich existence to basically somewhere where you basically couldn't pay for anything initially and it was a very poor existence but I guess from what you're saying there it's not like you felt like you were Rich at the time um I've made that contrast a few times when I had my first big arrest I couldn't as I was in a cold near lightless cell of blue stone and horse hair mattress about two inches thick and wrecking a piss I would think back to the night before when I had my important to tell in huge bed and Irish linen sheets and swimming pool out there and um and we had to kind of shake off the contrast but that rubber banding must must have been hard to take because it's you're going from basically the aspiration of almost everyone where you're talking about just buying cars outright and having a swimming pool to a piss stinking bed you know it must be it was you know it's odd thing about it was providing I could see a way out a work a way out I didn't so much mind oh okay um I really trained myself to expect my whatever world I built up and and this happened several times I've done it five times had a new identity New Life new surroundings even new people and dang they're gone and every time it got worse um and there was even Thailand was desperately important because even though it was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it um you know I was somebody that nobody minded killing um so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah there's nothing like the prospect of being executed by a machine gun which is the way they did it God is that what it would have been wow yeah you know oh they'd have three guards all with a bit of string on the trigger and they'd all pull it once so that none of them could be condemned in the Buddhist sense of sin oh they don't even actually right I see it caused the bullet that finished you off oh I see so you're in the Thai prison you've been sentenced to uh rather unpleasant death penalty um how did you start coming up with this famous plan for escaping um desperation it was the last plan that looked like it was going to work um there were probably about 20 plans considered um everything from being the prison held I've since found out it holds 22 000 people oh my God in 10 sub prisons uh there's a women's section there's a young offenders there's a special reminder a drug unit all of that um just a wild place it has everything it even had a prisoner-run shop where you could extract you could borrow money against your account and cash anyway um one of the plans involved being welded into a VW Combi van in the prisons Auto Workshop which would be picked up early Monday morning and I'd be driven out and that another one was um there were several courtroom ones and you couldn't just pay your way out no no it's just you could pay to have a mobile phone which in those days was a rare thing but they were around um you could pay for a bottle of clong uh whiskey you could pay I'm sure you could pay to get a a girl in your room if you could work out what a room was that a whole section full of ladyboys there and got a building full of them they used to open it up on Saturdays so um you could pay for anything but not to leave they couldn't cover that and they couldn't trust each other you would need 25 30 different guards paid off and and the gods of visitors I mean too many guides no that wouldn't work and they looked at it as a kind of betrayal only if I saw two escapes attempts there one group of uh straight kids and a Singaporean got out of their cell incredibly turned themselves into the sleeping God when they'd all lied to each other about what they didn't have you know the ropes and ways out because they're it was so outraged that they'd spoiled the guys jobs they beat them to death slowly tortured them over three months to death having put them in little code lockers the soy they call them drag them out in elephant chains every day and batter them senseless uh internal bleeding usually did it um look I've got a bowl of rice and a painting to poo in that was it um even the water was it was just too horrible so if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off even my Swedish friends Sten the Viking he backed out at the last minute I couldn't get people to go with me all the other plants had fallen to bits because they depended on other people I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars and I needed equipment for that and here's a really important point I guess as bad as this world is you've got to try to find good people if you ask somebody if you asked your friend yeah and and you're finished you'll manage to get a phone call and say friend it's been here um I need you to get um I don't know four hacksaw blades and cut them into the dowel rods of a of a poster and then paint it all up and send it in a huge package with this that cable ties gaffer tape but disguise all that how many people are going to do it turn around wouldn't believe it Ben called me what his neck yeah he's screwed but anyway he wouldn't believe but he wants me to do this that now people don't do it but Michael on the other hand our business partner wouldn't even let me explain he hadn't heard from me in 18 months he said David don't explain I'm sure we could get cut off tell me the important part now where do I have to be and what do I have to bring no that's a friend um and so I've always tried to do the same for the others that I've known like that um but um I did get the equipment together that I needed and everything um about escapes from a big prison is not like your hope it's going to be you know I turned it out walked around the streets and it had streets inside it um and timed it with my trusty Casio and it was so I knew roughly how long it would take to get me but the night's a different world I'm a prisoner I'm only used to noise during the day even the fan chopping around in the Cell at night it's so quiet everything I did squeaked and rattled and twisted I came across a panel that had to be a nail had to come out and that and they'll protest it and scream their wrench out of the way it took um uh seven or eight worlds uh sorry seven or eight walls to cross over I say worlds because they really were every building was a different thing and I got lost and I went past the terminal AIDS Ward that building hundreds of guys all die and I could smell it before I got there because this necrotic Rotting Flesh and I couldn't resist looking in I'm carrying this huge long ladder made out of bamboo poles and fake picture frames gaffer taped along the center [Music] um and I looked up and I saw all these little faces in the Moonlight wrapped in so much pain and despair they didn't have the energy to cry out to the guards if they'd been in any other prisoners they would have the trustees there were absolute scum of the earth had whistled little uniforms sell the drugs one day and the rest of the guys for it the next all of that um and it was only by um well I only got to the outer wall by Dawn and if somebody had been with me I wouldn't have made it either you wouldn't have no imagine I've taken all night to get there and at each point where this something was unexpected I've had to dream up something and I get a little basic toolkit and I sometimes I'd have to sacrifice part of my ladder to make a hook to pull down barbed wire and the technique for using the thing was awkward you had to prop it walk up drop down the other side so you're twisting over the walls like that manual is entirely barbed wire so I had to go underneath it covered in mud the the last one was really too high and there was a Mars bar Creek the the moat that ran around I did you know if I was with somebody else we'd be arguing wouldn't we oh Spa Creek oh it was full of turds bombing around it was caught out of the sewer yeah you did ask um illustrative okay we're just gonna take a quick break from the show to talk about a sponsor of this episode better help better help is an online Counseling Service which connects people to therapists and counselors I'm joined by one of our producers bryony is counseling something you've had experience with do you know what it's interesting because when I was growing up the same kind of challenges in life would happen but people wouldn't necessarily go to therapy or talk about therapy and I feel like since uh maybe my late teens early 20s people are starting to go to therapy and talking about it and I have definitely used it in my life and it's been massively beneficial same and do you because I think one of the things that people often mistake they think it's just for big things yeah but what's the other experience of that thing I think life always throws you know small challenges and large challenges and sometimes the big things need talking about but actually you know starting a new school or starting a new job can rile up that same level of anxiety and it's just really helpful to be able to talk to someone about it who is completely impartial not involved in your life and just kind of a safe space I guess to just say whatever you want to say you completely agree as the world's largest therapy service better help as much 3 million people with professionally licensed and vetted therapists available 100 online plus it's affordable just fill out a brief questionnaire to match with a therapist if things aren't clicking you can easily switch to a new therapist anytime it couldn't be simpler no waiting rooms no traffic no endless searching for the right therapist learn more and save 10 of your first month at betterhelp.com minutes with that's betterhelp help help.com minutes with um now there was one way of oh Beyond marsburg create this a foot and a half of land before this huge huge wall you've got to get a ladder that's too heavy to carry too imbalanced to do anything with but you've got a bit of rope how do you get it to the other side of Mars bar which has all got tangled barb wire in that so it'll catch get it in place and up against the wall when you've got no ground to to walk on now there is a way and uh I guess people have to listen to me describe it either to you or in my book okay fine but too long to tell here sure but um I could see the glow of dawn as I got to the top which had electricity running through it too just to make it the top of the wall dead yeah yeah wow but um my friend who um was in there a bit of a technician is to belong to the anarchist Society in in Britain how would you belong to a society that has rules when you anyway putting that aside he did tell me that it would only be 240 volts but to be careful um and just managed to get over that and because the original plan was to um oh there was an outer moat beyond that of 20 meters I had my clothes ready to go into a plastic bag swim the moat but just as well I didn't um because all it turned out all the guards houses were over the other side of that moat this would not be a place to go but I cleaned myself up threw some clothes on and I one of the jobs that I didn't do but I was supposed to be doing was working in the Umbrella Factory so I paid a local boy to do it um I've got a pop-up umbrella from there I thought you know you really get a perspective about I want to just simple discrimination but being an outsider a foreigner the way sometimes people feel picked upon you know we were called the white trash and we were in in Chains and everything so I knew I had to cover my face in the popular did it and I managed to get to a place where a passport was hidden and to the airport and still had a working ATM card to get me out of the country into Singapore so did you end up with the umbrella did you walk out the front gate yeah I did I had some long trousers on now in their prisoners are not allowed to wear them so I had some khaki pants I thought they might as I walked around the the narrow path to the front gate it's still mote but a little Bridge I thought another figure it's a guard arriving late and sneaking in and I did I felt like Ripley an alien uh looking at thinking lucky lucky this is where it all ends doesn't it and I'm thinking that every moment and looking up and there was just enough light rain to justify the umbrella yeah I would learn later that was actually the not a rain from the gods but the spittle of their laughter because they had worse things in mind for me later on I mean it's so it's you know how many people are you aware how many people had escaped from that prison up to that point was it some every year or was it very infrequent none um the ties sometimes ran away when they were doing the gardens in Chains outside but Escape From Within um I'd known of in 20 years people could recall two attempts no foreigners um and they didn't trust the foreigners that's why they put you on the third floor right quite rightly yes and and how long had it taken you from like the beginning of the uh I started cutting at um 11 45 I paid a lot to get a light switch in there normally the lights are on all the time um okay and I said to my favorite guard oh yeah Ponting or whatever his name was I can't sleep with that thing I'll put a light switch in um um now they didn't say it as corruption or bribe taking they thought I'm doing this nice guy a favor and I'll be lucky because of it that's a very big thing over there you know if I get caught I'm unlucky then so they can batter me to death I mean sure it's kind of self-justifies any action that a human being might take so he started cutting around eight for 11 45 11 45 okay it's quite close through one bar by two in the morning oh God stencia listen we'll go on the next note I looked around and Kevin the American from Hawaii I didn't even know this was happening uh Mirage the Indian I know he's going to talk the next morning he was kakaria LA pantaloni right in the cell never mind holding out and not saying anything he would have it would have been finished I never would have made it and I guess I could have seen the missing bars potentially but I learned later on I actually caught up with somebody who was in there Scottish guy um he was there for selling ecstasy to the Two well-off Sons and Daughters of wealthy policemen anyway um he remembers they the guards couldn't figure that I'd left oh um he said David they ran around the the prison calling out your name it was Daniel Westlake while I was there Daniel Daniel they okay that somebody drew their attention to the cut bar in there yeah my Scottish friend said they the gods wanted they thought that okay he's got out he's angry about something uh Daniel but he's not actually he'll never get out he couldn't get it they never found the the ladder down the front wall until much much later so for um uh uh only one of them said oh we better check the airport they sent a couple of guys down there um just a little bit late and you were gone by then only just and remember man you've got a passport from a Chinese connection that you barely know but kind of like the cut of his jib but are you gonna put your life on the line on that and at every moment you're handing it over you know like the look of it yeah they don't like the look of it they're typing it up and you're thinking they got onto the computer have they done that bit uh have they entered my arrival was this I knew it was freshly stolen or sold off was only a few weeks old uh I mean not new was had only gone missing a few weeks earlier so it was still good but very nerve-wracking and I didn't have a photo I had to use my old um uh radio operators license that had a photograph in it to get reproduced into this thing so it was a bit grainy um and even on the plane it was delay and takeoff oh God and a mumbling Captain oh sorry um we we have a thing with one passenger I just asked what thing exactly soon enough thwomp doors to manual oh but I've got an hour you know looking at this passport I don't like it get to Singapore but I make it through so you got to Singapore yeah but you did end up going back to prison not a Thai prison but a different prison he's suggesting uh I did something wrong well I'm hoping you're going to tell me um no well okay uh I didn't stay in Singapore long because um I sat there in the hotel room unable to digest food not prepared by my own cook sure I in the hotel room in Singapore I realized you could work out who had left that day if they'd flown my air by simply going to the airport and children you work it out yourselves at home you check everybody who's left separate the foreigners hmm go a step further let's keep the Canadian and American the British the Australian New Zealand all the English-speaking passport Society um just to you know reduce the numbers take those names check with the embassies any of these names belong to lost or stolen passports that have been reported yeah five of them because that's Bangkok you know not the only Mischief maker there but nonetheless um they probably knew I could be who was I Charles McClintock hmm sorry Charles I had to borrow your passport but it was an essential cause but you're not wanted anymore of course are you no but I did get an unwelcome knock at the door some years ago uh by the police who um would it be to go excuse me Westminster Court known for the terrorist cases extradition or parking fights wow I'd lift the car anywhere lately so it was going to be one of the other two and it was extradition to Thailand I fought that case for two years and um it was difficult um but managed to effectively win in the end so the ties have dropped that one and I can't be taken back there I'm not wanted anywhere um I can nobody can do what they want but um I I'm not I haven't got anything pending I'm not in business I'm a bit cautious I even got sent something in the the mail a few years ago and I thought it was some gift from some halfway ambitious wombat in in Pakistan sending me a bit of dope thinking oh yeah there's a gift you might like that connection made no I mean people had my address all around the world ever since Danny Dyer um it turned out to be more complicated than that but um very dangerous for me to walk into a courtroom so I don't even imagine you're me and knock at the door oh here's something for you Ben you don't like the look of it you refuse it you're in court no matter why did you refuse that was it your name no you was up The Jig was up proof ladies and gentlemen oh you accept it ah you accepted it proof ladies and gentlemen wife saying to me Jeanette and whom I met in Pakistan years ago and she was there to fish out her husband on a two-ton hash deal he didn't make it anyway um she said throw the thing away I'm thinking in court again ladies and gentlemen he threw the stuff away I can't win so very cautious about all that kind of stuff um fair enough but I take it you won't be going for a holiday to Thailand anytime soon I didn't think so okay so how many do you know off the top of your head of your life how many years of your life have you spent in prison ultimately I did add it up once I'm 66 now and I suppose I've spent um but 22 years the thing that occurs to me and I met you before and I thought the same thing is like you obviously extremely intelligent extremely resourceful it can't be well but well anyway but do you regret the choices you made in terms of do you see those 22 years in prison as something you had no control over it's just the way the dice rolled or do you see them as a mistake on your part um worse than a mistake mistake suggest you didn't know uh where you were going wrong I was taking those steps into uh of a precipice that I'd defied there is no gravity I said I said I will work out something before I hit the ground um when I was It was kind of in stages when I was young it was just arrogance and and showing off and later on when everything was destroyed it was kind of I'd scraped away all of my life and would just go on um then in the third stage it was escaping away from places rebuilding up and being weakened every time it was taken away again um and do I regret it yeah I'm sure I um no you know some people say oh yeah but David just smuggled everything on Earth you scumbag you you know um think of the lives you've destroyed and the people you've heard ah and I go to start to explain that it's not quite black and white uh I mean I've had drug habits myself that I've carelessly allowed um but I thought what's the point anything I say we just sound like self-justification so well don't listen to me then you know but things that have happened that have taught me a lot it's interesting you say that because one of a lot of the comments on our well on the first video we did a lot of the comments where people saying someone needs to make a movie about this guy but a lot of the other comments were people saying he's so charismatic and likable but he must be a really dangerous person to have been involved with all these worlds for so long and um we've interviewed a couple of drug smugglers and I would say they're the ones that I've met have been the ones that probably are more someone you'd see is traditionally quite an obviously dangerous person you come across as very Charming charismatic roguish where do you see yourself on that scale do you see yourself as someone who was dangerous or do you see yourself as someone who's just moved from area to area as it occurred um kind of like this a dangerous I suppose what most people see that and you know if somebody was a problem for me would I find the best option to have them killed or not but really there always was a kind of Vestige of that's a failure if you can't think of anything better than to have them killed then then then what are you doing there's a million clever ways of solving your problems and that besides which there's always going to be people you can't kill everybody um not only that who killed the killers that you've got to do the killing you know you know they always say that about the quiet ones and all of that but it was the people who bothered to put up a smoke screen um they're establishing a um later Alibi a courtroom personality but I met him he didn't seem bothered by all of that why would he have him killed and those are the ones that um seem to be more dangerous and if I was such a dangerous person like that I certainly been absolute fool to break from that mold and say otherwise wouldn't it very true David it's great to see you again thank you so much for coming in always a pleasure yeah and I've Got a Feeling we'll be seeing you again at some point as well it's possible it does may cross thank you I'll be like oh my God they're in my head they they know they know that was a song and so they put that song on the radio and it's all everything revolves around me or you know and this happened well sometimes happens today you know I'm I'm thinking of someone in my head someone under there like on the street	it was interesting and um I didn't really have a lot of fear I think sometimes what we do or don't do is depending on how scary it seems yeah agreed um I was born with a low resting heart rate as they say you know if it's below 70 you're a risk taker I don't know why that is when the safe crackers retired they put some of their money into growing little crops of weed and so on but profit margin is is only through importing because like the price difference is cheap in the source countries expensive where it sells so because they couldn't do it they were almost throwing it down like a challenge like we don't know anybody who can do this and I thought well I traveled a lot um I didn't think it was going to be impossible um I thought the odds were in my phone and I looked it up I went to the library and sort of researched it a bit and where were you thinking which country Well they um they were very keen to get some um hashish from India or Nepal or somewhere okay I could see um it's bulky and there's packing problems so um they funded me and off I sailed now the operation my first operation was so deplorably bad I'm barely 20 years old I my cunning plan which involved a big piece of exported Machinery which had weights in it so the	5	7	8	it was interesting and um I didn't really have a lot of fear I think sometimes what we do or don't do is depending on how scary it seems yeah agreed um I was born with a low resting heart rate as they say you know if it's below 70 you're a risk taker I don't know why that is when the safe crackers retired they put some of their money into growing little crops of weed and so on but profit margin is is only through importing because like the price difference is cheap in the source countries expensive where it sells so because they couldn't do it they were almost throwing it down like a challenge like we don't know anybody who can do this and I thought well I traveled a lot um I didn't think it was going to be impossible um I thought the odds were in my phone and I looked it up I went to the library and sort of researched it a bit and where were you thinking which country	Well they um they were very keen to get some um hashish from India or Nepal or somewhere	6,4,8	3,2,5	6	4	8	3	2	5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyZyHHexx7s	4,101	oyZyHHexx7s	2022-12-07 00:00:00	even though I was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off I couldn't get people to go with me I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars [Music] it's great to have you back David obviously we've met before but for anyone who doesn't know who you are for new listeners or new viewers could you give us a brief introduction to what you are famous for well I suppose uh most well known for uh having escaped to prison in Thailand in Bangkok uh the biggest one they have there clong Prim it uh wasn't something I did frivolously I was going to be executed within a couple of weeks so it seemed like a good time to leave okay now um we're going to get into that in a bit more detail but one thing that I remember about you from last time is you're the most incredible talker and we took away the inter the initial interview we've done with you and ended up having to make it into two long episodes because you have a lot of different very colorful uh experiences so do forgive me if I Jimmy us through oh no I can understand that I mean the only place I never talk is in the police station I always like some of my uh work colleagues took um what was it one slap to get them talking but five to shut them up oh okay so let's go right back to the beginning um you were born in the UK and then I believe you emigrated to Australia well um it was all a family thing yes I was born in basewater in London I spent the first few years of my life then uh there but my parents broke up divorced and I went with my mother to Australia with my older sister so I don't have any really very early memories of London apart from some old eight millimeter movie footage of me learning to walk in Hyde Park my dad was waving a five pound note in front of my face and I was making every effort to grab it I continued that behavior for many many years afterwards returned to Australia um finished some schooling um got really contrasting jobs I worked in an adult Agency for a while um but also before that I was got a job in a cinema now it was the and under literally an underground place but it was there that I got introduced to a bunch of crooks um some of the girls there had boyfriends that I used to run down with um strange boxes or bits of money or fur coats and then wink at me bolt out the back door pursued by often policemen undercover ones of course whom we'd misdirect somewhere but that Circle they were um safe crackers and they really didn't trust Outsiders and didn't much like the sound of me but because of I demonstrated a couple of things by being look everybody was really very anti-authority then I I don't mean hostile but for people now they they wouldn't have experienced that in the uh late 60s 70s we were so snotty and arrogant we really thought we were going to change the world and that um the laws were all nothing and the way to change them was to break them well that was the kind of vanity we had so um when I got to know the safe crackers uh better there was something really interesting I mean I didn't like the idea you know stealing things seemed a bit tacky but on the other hand they kind of all needed the money from the from their backgrounds and everything but that wasn't so much the the interest it was the technicalities of getting into these things okay um they used to drill through the top um having anchored it with the drill with clamps and and put a kind of little lens inside a cystoscope used in medicine and watch the the wheels turning around this is the old kind of old-fashioned Hollywood style it was yeah and um behind the safe were three discs and you had to line them up and they'd once they got in they'd take the door with them so that the opposition the safe makers wouldn't know how they'd got in and it was a a constant battle between the manufacturers and them because they've come across new safes which had Special Metals in it that was mixed like a a crunchy nut bar very hard metals very soft ones so the drill bit would slip on them snap and you got a sense that this was almost like a game where um they would try something then try to beat them and they were very loyal to each other um they they never spoke out of school as it were um when I got involved with them I'd only have to if I had trouble I don't have to make one phone call and people would appear out of nowhere and I thought yeah this this is kind of better than the treacherous boys school that I I grew up in and how old were you at this point um 19 years old 19. so were you thinking you were making a conscious decision to move into illegal activities or at that point in time and at that point in the world did it feel like more of a kind of a bit of roguish fun would you say I was drawn to it anyway because it was interesting and um I didn't really have a lot of fear I think sometimes what we do or don't do is depending on how scary it seems yeah agreed um I was born with a low resting heart rate as they say you know if it's below 70 you're a risk taker I don't know why that is when the safe crackers retired they put some of their money into growing little crops of weed and so on but profit margin is is only through importing because like the price difference is cheap in the source countries expensive where it sells so because they couldn't do it they were almost throwing it down like a challenge like we don't know anybody who can do this and I thought well I traveled a lot um I didn't think it was going to be impossible um I thought the odds were in my phone and I looked it up I went to the library and sort of researched it a bit and where were you thinking which country Well they um they were very keen to get some um hashish from India or Nepal or somewhere okay I could see um it's bulky and there's packing problems so um they funded me and off I sailed now the operation my first operation was so deplorably bad I'm barely 20 years old I my cunning plan which involved a big piece of exported Machinery which had weights in it so the weights would come out the cash would go in it would weigh the same being returned and it was a piece of Television equipment or something that went South immediately when I didn't realize that I would have to pay a huge deposit in duty to even bring it in as a demo machine so forget that I ended up in short meeting a guy in a money exchange section of a bank I was there because I ran out and I had to send asking for more from the boys and I met him and he wasn't involved in any of this but he soon became that just he managed to get me six kilos of hash I took the 1952 ancient Grundig radio from his parents house the Shelf there guttered the thing like a fish wrapped it up and he had to get cling film in those days think of this before you travel arriving with a suitcase full of cling film doesn't look good I suppose but uh wedged it in there and then just flew back to Sydney now you can imagine what happened well just before we get on to what happened you know one thing that strikes me is what year was would this have been this was uh 77 77 so it's amazing think that back then if someone was going to India for the first time now they could go on Google Maps they could research it or they could find out who they could find phone numbers contacts they could be put in contact with people before they've even set off whereas you must have at that age at that time been going in slightly blind you know touching down in a foreign country that you didn't know well no contacts was that not quite daunting well what was more um troubling with um how everything would fail and then I'd have to um you know come up with another plan what context somebody I knew um um there were no bank robber who joined the hare krishnas and fled to India right and I had his name and and the ashram in Delhi where where he was was supposed to have been uh I didn't really catch up with him on that trip but okay sure so so then you get back to Australia with your radio that is now full to the brim with and I get stopped you you did get stopped okay I could stop because uh I'm I'm on a British passport um and it's the only trip I've ever done and I'm that age I'd stop me oh fatherly type was at the Customs desk now the the systems were different in those days um it was Sydney too which is very and certainly was very relaxed back then right he opened the suitcase uh there was nothing in there except a pair of socks there's a towel wrapping up this massive radio which he lifted up so it was buckled at the sides little red packets poking out oh it smelled like a hedgehog for a patchouliers okay not much of a disguise um he let me go he uh put it back looked around to make sure that none of his workmates were watching him being so soft um and then turned to me and said you're going back there you're going to do this again [Music] all right you can take your we'll call it a radio shall we get out of here what he thought I realized later was that he didn't want the whole grammar of the day arresting me filling out papers and it would have been a a long time plus I guess being a dad he thought if I he's obviously an idiot you're right if I send him into Gladiator Academy or it wasn't really like that in those days but certainly contact center um the prison what am I doing um well I guess uh he was hopeful you know I whilst out of there must have smuggling me but I experienced then what um I got years later which was kind of a real Downer after you know having got nowhere with The Hare krishnas and and cultivated the shoeshine boys and had my money stolen at Amex uh by some Scallywags in Delhi all sorts of Little Adventures over there in India and nonetheless made it it's kind of like that's all there is to it I I didn't really want to give it to anyone um sort of felt like you didn't have a big moment of no a bit of money that came earlier that's handy right uh I paid back what I owed and settled up for for the next thing so but once that was started when you sorry I interrupted you go oh I was just going to say it to finish it even though they'd funded me the guys were very surprised to see me back but at all at all oh you made it oh because some of them say oh you'll just run away with it uh even if that's what he's doing who knows what he's doing you know and then I could see sitting around you can imagine there's like a table full of well like three guys and then a kind of Darkness shrouded over that room I thought uh it's not valuable enough to kill me you know what what is this mood why did you bring that well that's what you've been talking about yeah you could have loaded that with cane or smack or something you guys we say nothing but terrible things about a class or heavy drugs that don't want to know about it right and I could read then that wait a minute there we're all might be guys together and having fun getting into the safe and whatnot but there was a kind of different it was something a very strong lesson I'd have to be thoughtful about that um there could be times where things didn't work out not necessarily that my safety was at risk I didn't see it that way but I knew that there were Ruthless People right okay yeah so you got an insight into a mindset that had been a bit below the surface it was there I just chose not to see it but um I then went on to you know refine everything and Vary everything and then did you after that first time did you were you still working sort of for them or did you immediately well when you wake up on your own when things um I picked up and there was enough money around out of uh out of strategy rather than just being a nice guy I gave my partners a kind of thank you bonus from the next thing that I did but I did that all myself right so it was almost like a yeah separation and I wanted to go back to the my hippie friends anyway they were a little less it wasn't that they were scary but but that didn't last because they were maybe friends might be all right but they will certainly careless and stupid but from from that point onwards after that initial Journey was that you then into the world of smuggling I thought this won't last forever you only need one setback and that changes it I probably made quite a lot of money and I could have got out but and I should have gotta you know I have couriers a leak from one of the the couriers brought the police to me and here was the problem with it it was at first I scattered now I was married to my first wife then clearly Italian girl her dad had restaurants I grabbed her I had a secret drawer with extra passports in it some money ended up four plane Journeys later in um off the Bahamas had the skipper of a day rent yacht and take me out to an island and nobody had ever been on before it was empty sat there on a towel I thought hmm the level of surveillance I had means it's quite a big operation they're funded and I checked with a lawyer before the bigger the money they spent the more determined they'll be stay away or go back I mean I don't know why would anybody do this uh well I wasn't broke um I didn't have to there was no pressure on me the more I went through the problems the more attractive the whole thing is uh she didn't like it much well again do you think because it was a puzzle to be solved because um arrogance really we've gone from basically someone who was kind of mildly interested in making a group of people meeting a group of um safe hackers to someone who pulled off their first thing and then we've jumped to someone who has people working for them and and now is no longer taking the risk themselves now the police are on to you and you're on this desert island well small island and you're thinking about going back into it was this like a turning point in your life in terms of going you know because the other option I suppose was to go straight but were you just more it was that just not an option for you I'd gone to my lawyer Ralph he said look this is what I picked up because I my travel agent had tipped me to a couple of detectives that come in he traveled again while I was in on the phone okay uh actually they're all innocent really yeah you know and and gave him a long list of names um they wanted travel details for and a telephone number which I traced uh to um a private office building which had been rented by state and federal police they were so distrusting of their own they didn't want to even run this thing from um regular police headquarters my lawyer said well what you sure it's you said Ralph look at the list of names there's 30 there I'm 26 of them passports are a lot easier to get back then than there now so you had 26 aliases that you were traveling on yeah right okay um and I described where they were he said David they are funded well they're not bear this in mind but although I what they won't get me with anything they're funded you think they're going to walk away after a year and say oh sorry boss you spend a million dollars and uh nothing doing they don't work like that but this is how stubborn I was I thought because he said the only thing you can do is disappear for at least a couple of years and then you can come back if that's what you want and of course I had justifications for it I thought okay I'll I'll build up a bit more money and then I'll disappear but um it was only after things went terribly badly that I realized I shouldn't play like this anymore what it was they um because the challenge just kept coming so now so did you go back to Australia I went back to Australia and and when I retired within three months right but they weren't waiting for you to arrest you or no no they wanted they wanted something solid okay [Music] um I won't go into the long machinations of it all but um somebody we knew uh was getting things from a Thai Courier and he got arrested he sold us out to the police so that that The Courier would now come to us and I always have some solid evidence right he would bring things but we got away with that because that was another challenge but the police got tired of all this arrested me no drugs of course so it was a difficult case the worst kind of case is that where there's no solid evidence and in a way it's better to go to court where you've got a Smoking Gun and a dead body on the ground because at least you know where you are but where there's nothing tangible and it's conspiracies and this was a huge trial six months long what is that 119 Witnesses 6 000 pages of uh telephone intercept massive thing won't made it worse too and I think this was um would change things for me um the pressure was put on for confessions but it'd be silly to confess and you can't confess on somebody else's behalf can you that's not nice um lots of the family were arrested even my mother was taken and it went oh wow just to put pressure on uh did she know what you did oh she had an idea right okay I mean I used to have bin liners full of money I'd leave behind the fridge yeah you don't get that in the cinema do you not done not a very good day you know uh because they arrested so many people now when they arrested our wives and my business partner Michael his wife just had a baby it was we had to do a deal here I didn't want to but I was going to say I said to Michael look I know you don't like it but we'll play to it get the girls out of trouble we'll Escape that's a good challenge that way [Music] um but unfortunately um the intelligence section put an arsonist Informer in with the girls to get some information her fire was lit uh burnt down the women's prison and my wife and my business partner's wife was were killed uh that's awful and so the Informer that they put in there yeah why did they pick an arsonist for Daniel writer name was I don't know why I remember that after 40 years God so that's quite a big that was oh and and just uh to make things worse the story put about town to scare the careers into talking because they wouldn't speak was that we'd we were killing off all the witnesses and starting with our own family where does that come from um we ended up in a super max prison nightmarish electronic zoo with two inch glass and electronic doors and insane inmates held 48 death rate 27 people a year died in that little supermax going to court in Chains with a SWAT team taking it it was so so much Michael fell to pieces he was just a wreck he didn't make it uh he survived the jail but died when he got out the only way I could survive all of that was to strip away everything I you know I found myself in the supermax concrete everything's concrete the bed everything there's no everything's still just with the tape player from my lure listening to the the tapes the bug tapes the microphones in my house I could play back my life for the last six months clearly you're moving from room to room taking telephone calls she was crying about something I didn't know what I never know and David that's gone immerse yourself in the worst that they have you will not survive this otherwise trial sort of went not so good acquitted of most things but convicted enough 10 years difficult imprisonment but I the only way I could deal with it was to say did I want revenge that was more my fault I brought this about I got her in there I mean a family of a very kind to me about it considering I wouldn't be but it doesn't matter in Chains and super Mech strip it all away it is nothing everyone is a potential enemy everything it just nothing mattered win the day win the night I mean this is a place we had to fill in a book to get some toilet paper the showers were in front of them in a glass box um if you went on a visit they'd zip you up and lock you in a suit so you had no pockets there was after that and her death I felt like there was nothing that could affect me you're wrong about these things you know we're human but I got out and they were there they even visited me to say we'll be on you when you get out the police yeah we enjoyed the old days didn't you yeah I said pretending you know and just to make the point that they were there when I got out um I I'd done a whole lot of Woodwork in the prison in the last place I was at carving intricate things making these really great trick Chinese boxes with beeswax they intercepted the van that was taking it from the prison back to my house and smashed it all to pieces I put it in a box just to say don't think that we will never be here we can do what we want so I decided to leave the country I was um how old am I by then let's work it out yeah uh I started all this Mischief when I was about 18 got arrested at 22. 23 uh um 16 years 17 years either under surveillance or in bad prisons got out and I'm under surveillance again um so how old so you're number 37 about 37. so that's already you know that's a big chunk of Life there but you've lost quite a lot of it to prison or surveillance well at no point now were you like okay and I wasn't a normal person uh really when I got out because of the experience of prison I'd already stripped most of Myself Away to deal with the death of the Superman yeah and and watching people be burnt to death in the place which was frequent somebody had contact glue pulled all over him and then satellite oh God Gods came in and the other one's standing there with a Tire swinging it around to make sure to let him burn let him burn Jesus Barry's name was testicles swollen like apples but black okay he died two hours later in hospital anyway um that was regular account to deal with that I'd already strip things away so when I got a little apartment when I got out and my mother had arranged things for me when they were there when they'd leave rude messages on my answer machine when they'd be behind me everywhere I thought all right I remember this David it never ends if you want to survive go back to the way you were you know in in the super max Anything Can Happen anytime but I didn't want to live like that um I got a fresh passport and most elaborate means um I could spend a week explaining how that came into existence but I went to Thailand to pick up some money I had three days there it was just before Christmas I left at that time on purpose so that they maybe I thought maybe it's their weak point that they want to have families in their life just at Christmas I've parked my mum's car and and left the keys somewhere for her nobody knew were you not meant to leave the country no no no licenses oh I see we're just going to take a minute here to talk about a sponsor of this show which is manscaped we were sent a package to try out by manscaped but Conor one of our producers is already a fan of the brand I believe yeah absolutely I've been using manscape for a little while now and Ben as you know it's that time of year people start asking you what you want for Christmas and I would say that a great gift for a man especially one that might have everything is the manscape performance package 4.0 so what's in that so you get the lawnmower 4.0 electric trimmer you get some anti-chafe boxer shorts which I can vouch for as well as a couple of other grooming products that smell great fantastic well it sounds like a five-star review from uconnor absolutely so Connor you were talking about the performance package there's loads of other great gift ideas such as the hygiene bundle all available at manscape.com com and all gifts that men will genuinely love to receive this Christmas if you are a listener of this podcast you get 20 off and free shipping all you have to do is go to manscape.com and use the code minutes that's manscape.com m-i-n-u-t-e-s minutes um so why are we doing that the risk is it worth it I didn't want to play anymore right I wanted to uh see if I could have a something resembling like a a real life just to find some corner of the world plan was to to return to London and oh so you were leaving forever I'm leaving forever okay I see nobody knew it um I had a couple of hundred thousand in Thailand I thought um which I returned to pick up um now I suppose people say this Crooks always say this most unusual circumstances led to my arrest well they were but then again they always are aren't they or you wouldn't be telling the story or you wouldn't have been arrested but um the USDA was involved lots of people lots of players uh no real drugs are found uh they did an airport sweep and listed me up for like an ounce of something and a false passport or two the money I had just disappeared into pockets but those when I arrived there I felt so free I knew this identity was good I just like floating on air really I slipped out of my protective mode you know that when we stick to the plan and all right you don't want to leave I should have even stayed there for six months just get some sensible view of the world but I I didn't uh and as I went to the airport I could see they were all around me and I melted back into the crowd and disappeared again I thought well that serves me right for changing that attitude I'd had from back in super max and I just glaze over concentrate on the details which I needed to do because when I went to make a phone call later at the travel agency uh waiting it was so depressing being thrown into the Thai prison and I had some idea what they'd be like um people I'd known had been arrested there I knew this much it never won a case you never get out well you get out and what were they arresting you for was it the the uh the passport um what did the the the money wasn't I mean what did they leave 4 000 or something like that right and there are airports we put um I saw the guy walking in with it in a plastic bag you know whatever people throw on the floor before they go through security there was a bit of hash this usual bits of weed but what they really wanted was um this 25 grams of heroin because that would finish me off a policeman um Australian one said was that yours yeah yeah sure it was he said I didn't think so what would you be carrying around that for I mean if it was 10 kilos I might understand but but that was enough the death penalty and was it yours no no no so where where would that come from if you do they do a sweep every afternoon at five o'clock they get tons of it right I get you know nervous passengers go up and then they change their minds and they throw it in the toilet too and were they just did do you think they believed it was yours or do you think they were just going this is we need to give him this bit no no I think they were using it hoping to that would be good to hold and maybe they could get something else find out what I was up to who I was seeing because I had met um somebody who's whose uncle was a big player right so there was there was I think they were optimistic there might be more Camp come out of it but but there wasn't but what difference did it make and I wasn't really worried about um those drugs or the death penalty I wanted to die anyway frankly my first escape plans from there had this I imagine getting out to find the Privacy to kill myself right I wanted to go to the dusa Tony Hotel I knew Which floor and where to get onto the roof I'd taken photographs from there many years before um they were you simply couldn't get a moment's piece dormitories with 150 guys in them screaming all night um we can't even take a crap in peace in the Thai prison We're Not Afraid though of what killing myself well no I mean I don't know being brutalized by the guards or the inmates so well I knew enough about Thailand to to know that it was a little more comic than than bad there were very bad things happen they used to um they've beaten people a couple of people get beaten to death every day there but it's a very big prison we have to get that in proportion I only wish they wouldn't use the food trolley to take the dead bodies out because um you know they don't clean them up um and could you speak the language or were you quite it was a quite different communication uh not really uh and the few languages that uh pitch up in my travels I always found that even if you know them it's better to pretend you don't okay um because they'll talk about you behind your back you know certainly didn't live it on there was I I just couldn't see any point I'd gone to such elaborate precautions on this trip um it just shouldn't have happened and I even got away from the airport and still it happened oh all that confidence that I'll figure a way out I didn't care anymore I just had enough um and I remember seeing an old guy there if you had to go to court they put change on you and um you'd line up on the ground now this old guy I was looking at him because I don't know why a big soundtrack went past he had the presence of mind to push his head under that sand truck and oh it twisted it around popped like a watermelon being dropped on the ground oh my God guys very annoyed told the trustees to get that thing away out of sight was that nice thing called it I thought you Brave bastard you yeah you've got the guts to do that was it not quite a disturbing thing to witness no it was shocking because if you haven't seen it kind of thing up close and I happen to be looking um it was uh but that that's how I felt about it but I was saved In The End by a con man and people say a lot of bad things about economy they do yes they do and they uh you can't be trusted uh they are rottenness and they will cheat you just because they're the Scorpion that's in their nature uh but sometimes they're just what you need and this rather smooth um Bostonian American um who spoke Thai and really knew his way around and I you know I thought the somewhere in this huge prison there'd be an enclave of rich and corrupt foreigners with loads of money and there'd be luxuries it wasn't there was nobody of any importance in there you know a couple of big sacrifices had been made but um a couple of very rich policemen who were in the hospital in intensive care but other than that it was it was just um the people who reached the absolute bottom Drifters in Asia who did run after run and then got sacrificed to the machine they'd get about four jobs a big Syndicate there operating careers had run four times bang they'd shot them to the police they'd be gone oh God they will turn told the same story and it was Joe it was this guest house it was such and such identical and um and and at this point had you been sentenced to death had you received oh no no no I I was trying to avoid that yeah once I came to my senses because the the Boston con had so many wonderful schemes medical thing to get me bail and know some way of a escape with a go to court I get snatched from there I had villains come over and and scope out the court too because there was a way I thought of getting out of there from the lift that took you up to the the building uh snatched from the middle as you go down changed into a different set of clothes but they all got scared thing about um some of our most loved uh and fearless villains they're pretty good in the local manner but you throw them into a place like that where people carry machine guns and shoot at will just for the hell of it not so confident they like the upper edge of being snakes um so I couldn't convince anybody to really help and it was just as well um and two and a half years passed there in this prison it's a long time it was I sort of perked up a little bit pulled myself together started exercising um got a couple of ATM cards over hadn't my favorite god um he was in charge of the the building bought myself a room renovated um so you had you bought a room within the prison that was just for you rented that's rented right you know and is that an official thing that you're allowed to do right there are places in the world where it's official right but you had an influx of money that you could pay for special treats you could survive there on um less than 500 pounds a month and be king oh wow was this the 70s or the 80s now by the way we're into um 90 495 19 the 495 because what's reported about you is that during the 80s you were a multi-millionaire um is that accurate um now what do we call a multi-millionaires a young halfway with a million and a quarter on a glass coffee table and looks around the living room and thinks I've got to get a sofa one of these days um oh goes to the car auctions in the morning buys a big yank tank with a 427 Chevy engine in it um drives it around makes his own car parking spaces you know we're smashing the front in backing the other one pushing the other cars out of the way um oh stoned off my head most of the time uh if I wasn't stunned enough I'd take a few mandracks just to colludes icing on the cake um so I didn't take care of the money and the money didn't take care of me so I guess I'm like the reason I the reason I asked was because it must have been quite a stark change going from a very rich existence to basically somewhere where you basically couldn't pay for anything initially and it was a very poor existence but I guess from what you're saying there it's not like you felt like you were Rich at the time um I've made that contrast a few times when I had my first big arrest I couldn't as I was in a cold near lightless cell of blue stone and horse hair mattress about two inches thick and wrecking a piss I would think back to the night before when I had my important to tell in huge bed and Irish linen sheets and swimming pool out there and um and we had to kind of shake off the contrast but that rubber banding must must have been hard to take because it's you're going from basically the aspiration of almost everyone where you're talking about just buying cars outright and having a swimming pool to a piss stinking bed you know it must be it was you know it's odd thing about it was providing I could see a way out a work a way out I didn't so much mind oh okay um I really trained myself to expect my whatever world I built up and and this happened several times I've done it five times had a new identity New Life new surroundings even new people and dang they're gone and every time it got worse um and there was even Thailand was desperately important because even though it was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it um you know I was somebody that nobody minded killing um so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah there's nothing like the prospect of being executed by a machine gun which is the way they did it God is that what it would have been wow yeah you know oh they'd have three guards all with a bit of string on the trigger and they'd all pull it once so that none of them could be condemned in the Buddhist sense of sin oh they don't even actually right I see it caused the bullet that finished you off oh I see so you're in the Thai prison you've been sentenced to uh rather unpleasant death penalty um how did you start coming up with this famous plan for escaping um desperation it was the last plan that looked like it was going to work um there were probably about 20 plans considered um everything from being the prison held I've since found out it holds 22 000 people oh my God in 10 sub prisons uh there's a women's section there's a young offenders there's a special reminder a drug unit all of that um just a wild place it has everything it even had a prisoner-run shop where you could extract you could borrow money against your account and cash anyway um one of the plans involved being welded into a VW Combi van in the prisons Auto Workshop which would be picked up early Monday morning and I'd be driven out and that another one was um there were several courtroom ones and you couldn't just pay your way out no no it's just you could pay to have a mobile phone which in those days was a rare thing but they were around um you could pay for a bottle of clong uh whiskey you could pay I'm sure you could pay to get a a girl in your room if you could work out what a room was that a whole section full of ladyboys there and got a building full of them they used to open it up on Saturdays so um you could pay for anything but not to leave they couldn't cover that and they couldn't trust each other you would need 25 30 different guards paid off and and the gods of visitors I mean too many guides no that wouldn't work and they looked at it as a kind of betrayal only if I saw two escapes attempts there one group of uh straight kids and a Singaporean got out of their cell incredibly turned themselves into the sleeping God when they'd all lied to each other about what they didn't have you know the ropes and ways out because they're it was so outraged that they'd spoiled the guys jobs they beat them to death slowly tortured them over three months to death having put them in little code lockers the soy they call them drag them out in elephant chains every day and batter them senseless uh internal bleeding usually did it um look I've got a bowl of rice and a painting to poo in that was it um even the water was it was just too horrible so if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off even my Swedish friends Sten the Viking he backed out at the last minute I couldn't get people to go with me all the other plants had fallen to bits because they depended on other people I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars and I needed equipment for that and here's a really important point I guess as bad as this world is you've got to try to find good people if you ask somebody if you asked your friend yeah and and you're finished you'll manage to get a phone call and say friend it's been here um I need you to get um I don't know four hacksaw blades and cut them into the dowel rods of a of a poster and then paint it all up and send it in a huge package with this that cable ties gaffer tape but disguise all that how many people are going to do it turn around wouldn't believe it Ben called me what his neck yeah he's screwed but anyway he wouldn't believe but he wants me to do this that now people don't do it but Michael on the other hand our business partner wouldn't even let me explain he hadn't heard from me in 18 months he said David don't explain I'm sure we could get cut off tell me the important part now where do I have to be and what do I have to bring no that's a friend um and so I've always tried to do the same for the others that I've known like that um but um I did get the equipment together that I needed and everything um about escapes from a big prison is not like your hope it's going to be you know I turned it out walked around the streets and it had streets inside it um and timed it with my trusty Casio and it was so I knew roughly how long it would take to get me but the night's a different world I'm a prisoner I'm only used to noise during the day even the fan chopping around in the Cell at night it's so quiet everything I did squeaked and rattled and twisted I came across a panel that had to be a nail had to come out and that and they'll protest it and scream their wrench out of the way it took um uh seven or eight worlds uh sorry seven or eight walls to cross over I say worlds because they really were every building was a different thing and I got lost and I went past the terminal AIDS Ward that building hundreds of guys all die and I could smell it before I got there because this necrotic Rotting Flesh and I couldn't resist looking in I'm carrying this huge long ladder made out of bamboo poles and fake picture frames gaffer taped along the center [Music] um and I looked up and I saw all these little faces in the Moonlight wrapped in so much pain and despair they didn't have the energy to cry out to the guards if they'd been in any other prisoners they would have the trustees there were absolute scum of the earth had whistled little uniforms sell the drugs one day and the rest of the guys for it the next all of that um and it was only by um well I only got to the outer wall by Dawn and if somebody had been with me I wouldn't have made it either you wouldn't have no imagine I've taken all night to get there and at each point where this something was unexpected I've had to dream up something and I get a little basic toolkit and I sometimes I'd have to sacrifice part of my ladder to make a hook to pull down barbed wire and the technique for using the thing was awkward you had to prop it walk up drop down the other side so you're twisting over the walls like that manual is entirely barbed wire so I had to go underneath it covered in mud the the last one was really too high and there was a Mars bar Creek the the moat that ran around I did you know if I was with somebody else we'd be arguing wouldn't we oh Spa Creek oh it was full of turds bombing around it was caught out of the sewer yeah you did ask um illustrative okay we're just gonna take a quick break from the show to talk about a sponsor of this episode better help better help is an online Counseling Service which connects people to therapists and counselors I'm joined by one of our producers bryony is counseling something you've had experience with do you know what it's interesting because when I was growing up the same kind of challenges in life would happen but people wouldn't necessarily go to therapy or talk about therapy and I feel like since uh maybe my late teens early 20s people are starting to go to therapy and talking about it and I have definitely used it in my life and it's been massively beneficial same and do you because I think one of the things that people often mistake they think it's just for big things yeah but what's the other experience of that thing I think life always throws you know small challenges and large challenges and sometimes the big things need talking about but actually you know starting a new school or starting a new job can rile up that same level of anxiety and it's just really helpful to be able to talk to someone about it who is completely impartial not involved in your life and just kind of a safe space I guess to just say whatever you want to say you completely agree as the world's largest therapy service better help as much 3 million people with professionally licensed and vetted therapists available 100 online plus it's affordable just fill out a brief questionnaire to match with a therapist if things aren't clicking you can easily switch to a new therapist anytime it couldn't be simpler no waiting rooms no traffic no endless searching for the right therapist learn more and save 10 of your first month at betterhelp.com minutes with that's betterhelp help help.com minutes with um now there was one way of oh Beyond marsburg create this a foot and a half of land before this huge huge wall you've got to get a ladder that's too heavy to carry too imbalanced to do anything with but you've got a bit of rope how do you get it to the other side of Mars bar which has all got tangled barb wire in that so it'll catch get it in place and up against the wall when you've got no ground to to walk on now there is a way and uh I guess people have to listen to me describe it either to you or in my book okay fine but too long to tell here sure but um I could see the glow of dawn as I got to the top which had electricity running through it too just to make it the top of the wall dead yeah yeah wow but um my friend who um was in there a bit of a technician is to belong to the anarchist Society in in Britain how would you belong to a society that has rules when you anyway putting that aside he did tell me that it would only be 240 volts but to be careful um and just managed to get over that and because the original plan was to um oh there was an outer moat beyond that of 20 meters I had my clothes ready to go into a plastic bag swim the moat but just as well I didn't um because all it turned out all the guards houses were over the other side of that moat this would not be a place to go but I cleaned myself up threw some clothes on and I one of the jobs that I didn't do but I was supposed to be doing was working in the Umbrella Factory so I paid a local boy to do it um I've got a pop-up umbrella from there I thought you know you really get a perspective about I want to just simple discrimination but being an outsider a foreigner the way sometimes people feel picked upon you know we were called the white trash and we were in in Chains and everything so I knew I had to cover my face in the popular did it and I managed to get to a place where a passport was hidden and to the airport and still had a working ATM card to get me out of the country into Singapore so did you end up with the umbrella did you walk out the front gate yeah I did I had some long trousers on now in their prisoners are not allowed to wear them so I had some khaki pants I thought they might as I walked around the the narrow path to the front gate it's still mote but a little Bridge I thought another figure it's a guard arriving late and sneaking in and I did I felt like Ripley an alien uh looking at thinking lucky lucky this is where it all ends doesn't it and I'm thinking that every moment and looking up and there was just enough light rain to justify the umbrella yeah I would learn later that was actually the not a rain from the gods but the spittle of their laughter because they had worse things in mind for me later on I mean it's so it's you know how many people are you aware how many people had escaped from that prison up to that point was it some every year or was it very infrequent none um the ties sometimes ran away when they were doing the gardens in Chains outside but Escape From Within um I'd known of in 20 years people could recall two attempts no foreigners um and they didn't trust the foreigners that's why they put you on the third floor right quite rightly yes and and how long had it taken you from like the beginning of the uh I started cutting at um 11 45 I paid a lot to get a light switch in there normally the lights are on all the time um okay and I said to my favorite guard oh yeah Ponting or whatever his name was I can't sleep with that thing I'll put a light switch in um um now they didn't say it as corruption or bribe taking they thought I'm doing this nice guy a favor and I'll be lucky because of it that's a very big thing over there you know if I get caught I'm unlucky then so they can batter me to death I mean sure it's kind of self-justifies any action that a human being might take so he started cutting around eight for 11 45 11 45 okay it's quite close through one bar by two in the morning oh God stencia listen we'll go on the next note I looked around and Kevin the American from Hawaii I didn't even know this was happening uh Mirage the Indian I know he's going to talk the next morning he was kakaria LA pantaloni right in the cell never mind holding out and not saying anything he would have it would have been finished I never would have made it and I guess I could have seen the missing bars potentially but I learned later on I actually caught up with somebody who was in there Scottish guy um he was there for selling ecstasy to the Two well-off Sons and Daughters of wealthy policemen anyway um he remembers they the guards couldn't figure that I'd left oh um he said David they ran around the the prison calling out your name it was Daniel Westlake while I was there Daniel Daniel they okay that somebody drew their attention to the cut bar in there yeah my Scottish friend said they the gods wanted they thought that okay he's got out he's angry about something uh Daniel but he's not actually he'll never get out he couldn't get it they never found the the ladder down the front wall until much much later so for um uh uh only one of them said oh we better check the airport they sent a couple of guys down there um just a little bit late and you were gone by then only just and remember man you've got a passport from a Chinese connection that you barely know but kind of like the cut of his jib but are you gonna put your life on the line on that and at every moment you're handing it over you know like the look of it yeah they don't like the look of it they're typing it up and you're thinking they got onto the computer have they done that bit uh have they entered my arrival was this I knew it was freshly stolen or sold off was only a few weeks old uh I mean not new was had only gone missing a few weeks earlier so it was still good but very nerve-wracking and I didn't have a photo I had to use my old um uh radio operators license that had a photograph in it to get reproduced into this thing so it was a bit grainy um and even on the plane it was delay and takeoff oh God and a mumbling Captain oh sorry um we we have a thing with one passenger I just asked what thing exactly soon enough thwomp doors to manual oh but I've got an hour you know looking at this passport I don't like it get to Singapore but I make it through so you got to Singapore yeah but you did end up going back to prison not a Thai prison but a different prison he's suggesting uh I did something wrong well I'm hoping you're going to tell me um no well okay uh I didn't stay in Singapore long because um I sat there in the hotel room unable to digest food not prepared by my own cook sure I in the hotel room in Singapore I realized you could work out who had left that day if they'd flown my air by simply going to the airport and children you work it out yourselves at home you check everybody who's left separate the foreigners hmm go a step further let's keep the Canadian and American the British the Australian New Zealand all the English-speaking passport Society um just to you know reduce the numbers take those names check with the embassies any of these names belong to lost or stolen passports that have been reported yeah five of them because that's Bangkok you know not the only Mischief maker there but nonetheless um they probably knew I could be who was I Charles McClintock hmm sorry Charles I had to borrow your passport but it was an essential cause but you're not wanted anymore of course are you no but I did get an unwelcome knock at the door some years ago uh by the police who um would it be to go excuse me Westminster Court known for the terrorist cases extradition or parking fights wow I'd lift the car anywhere lately so it was going to be one of the other two and it was extradition to Thailand I fought that case for two years and um it was difficult um but managed to effectively win in the end so the ties have dropped that one and I can't be taken back there I'm not wanted anywhere um I can nobody can do what they want but um I I'm not I haven't got anything pending I'm not in business I'm a bit cautious I even got sent something in the the mail a few years ago and I thought it was some gift from some halfway ambitious wombat in in Pakistan sending me a bit of dope thinking oh yeah there's a gift you might like that connection made no I mean people had my address all around the world ever since Danny Dyer um it turned out to be more complicated than that but um very dangerous for me to walk into a courtroom so I don't even imagine you're me and knock at the door oh here's something for you Ben you don't like the look of it you refuse it you're in court no matter why did you refuse that was it your name no you was up The Jig was up proof ladies and gentlemen oh you accept it ah you accepted it proof ladies and gentlemen wife saying to me Jeanette and whom I met in Pakistan years ago and she was there to fish out her husband on a two-ton hash deal he didn't make it anyway um she said throw the thing away I'm thinking in court again ladies and gentlemen he threw the stuff away I can't win so very cautious about all that kind of stuff um fair enough but I take it you won't be going for a holiday to Thailand anytime soon I didn't think so okay so how many do you know off the top of your head of your life how many years of your life have you spent in prison ultimately I did add it up once I'm 66 now and I suppose I've spent um but 22 years the thing that occurs to me and I met you before and I thought the same thing is like you obviously extremely intelligent extremely resourceful it can't be well but well anyway but do you regret the choices you made in terms of do you see those 22 years in prison as something you had no control over it's just the way the dice rolled or do you see them as a mistake on your part um worse than a mistake mistake suggest you didn't know uh where you were going wrong I was taking those steps into uh of a precipice that I'd defied there is no gravity I said I said I will work out something before I hit the ground um when I was It was kind of in stages when I was young it was just arrogance and and showing off and later on when everything was destroyed it was kind of I'd scraped away all of my life and would just go on um then in the third stage it was escaping away from places rebuilding up and being weakened every time it was taken away again um and do I regret it yeah I'm sure I um no you know some people say oh yeah but David just smuggled everything on Earth you scumbag you you know um think of the lives you've destroyed and the people you've heard ah and I go to start to explain that it's not quite black and white uh I mean I've had drug habits myself that I've carelessly allowed um but I thought what's the point anything I say we just sound like self-justification so well don't listen to me then you know but things that have happened that have taught me a lot it's interesting you say that because one of a lot of the comments on our well on the first video we did a lot of the comments where people saying someone needs to make a movie about this guy but a lot of the other comments were people saying he's so charismatic and likable but he must be a really dangerous person to have been involved with all these worlds for so long and um we've interviewed a couple of drug smugglers and I would say they're the ones that I've met have been the ones that probably are more someone you'd see is traditionally quite an obviously dangerous person you come across as very Charming charismatic roguish where do you see yourself on that scale do you see yourself as someone who was dangerous or do you see yourself as someone who's just moved from area to area as it occurred um kind of like this a dangerous I suppose what most people see that and you know if somebody was a problem for me would I find the best option to have them killed or not but really there always was a kind of Vestige of that's a failure if you can't think of anything better than to have them killed then then then what are you doing there's a million clever ways of solving your problems and that besides which there's always going to be people you can't kill everybody um not only that who killed the killers that you've got to do the killing you know you know they always say that about the quiet ones and all of that but it was the people who bothered to put up a smoke screen um they're establishing a um later Alibi a courtroom personality but I met him he didn't seem bothered by all of that why would he have him killed and those are the ones that um seem to be more dangerous and if I was such a dangerous person like that I certainly been absolute fool to break from that mold and say otherwise wouldn't it very true David it's great to see you again thank you so much for coming in always a pleasure yeah and I've Got a Feeling we'll be seeing you again at some point as well it's possible it does may cross thank you I'll be like oh my God they're in my head they they know they know that was a song and so they put that song on the radio and it's all everything revolves around me or you know and this happened well sometimes happens today you know I'm I'm thinking of someone in my head someone under there like on the street	out who they could find phone numbers contacts they could be put in contact with people before they've even set off whereas you must have at that age at that time been going in slightly blind you know touching down in a foreign country that you didn't know well no contacts was that not quite daunting well what was more um troubling with um how everything would fail and then I'd have to um you know come up with another plan what context somebody I knew um um there were no bank robber who joined the hare krishnas and fled to India right and I had his name and and the ashram in Delhi where where he was was supposed to have been uh I didn't really catch up with him on that trip but okay sure so so then you get back to Australia with your radio that is now full to the brim with and I get stopped you you did get stopped okay I could stop because uh I'm I'm on a British passport um and it's the only trip I've ever done and I'm that age I'd stop me oh fatherly type was at the Customs desk now the the systems were different in those days um it was Sydney too which is very and certainly was very relaxed back then right he opened the suitcase uh there was nothing in there except a pair of socks there's a towel wrapping up this massive radio which	2	6	4	out who they could find phone numbers contacts they could be put in contact with people before they've even set off whereas you must have at that age at that time been going in slightly blind you know touching down in a foreign country that you didn't know well no contacts was that not quite daunting	well what was more um troubling with um how everything would fail and then I'd have to um you know come up with another plan what context somebody I knew um um there were no bank robber who joined the hare krishnas and fled to India right and I had his name and and the ashram in Delhi where where he was was supposed to have been uh I didn't really catch up with him on that trip but okay	2,-5,4	3,-2,6	2	-5	4	3	-2	6
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyZyHHexx7s	4,101	oyZyHHexx7s	2022-12-07 00:00:00	even though I was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off I couldn't get people to go with me I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars [Music] it's great to have you back David obviously we've met before but for anyone who doesn't know who you are for new listeners or new viewers could you give us a brief introduction to what you are famous for well I suppose uh most well known for uh having escaped to prison in Thailand in Bangkok uh the biggest one they have there clong Prim it uh wasn't something I did frivolously I was going to be executed within a couple of weeks so it seemed like a good time to leave okay now um we're going to get into that in a bit more detail but one thing that I remember about you from last time is you're the most incredible talker and we took away the inter the initial interview we've done with you and ended up having to make it into two long episodes because you have a lot of different very colorful uh experiences so do forgive me if I Jimmy us through oh no I can understand that I mean the only place I never talk is in the police station I always like some of my uh work colleagues took um what was it one slap to get them talking but five to shut them up oh okay so let's go right back to the beginning um you were born in the UK and then I believe you emigrated to Australia well um it was all a family thing yes I was born in basewater in London I spent the first few years of my life then uh there but my parents broke up divorced and I went with my mother to Australia with my older sister so I don't have any really very early memories of London apart from some old eight millimeter movie footage of me learning to walk in Hyde Park my dad was waving a five pound note in front of my face and I was making every effort to grab it I continued that behavior for many many years afterwards returned to Australia um finished some schooling um got really contrasting jobs I worked in an adult Agency for a while um but also before that I was got a job in a cinema now it was the and under literally an underground place but it was there that I got introduced to a bunch of crooks um some of the girls there had boyfriends that I used to run down with um strange boxes or bits of money or fur coats and then wink at me bolt out the back door pursued by often policemen undercover ones of course whom we'd misdirect somewhere but that Circle they were um safe crackers and they really didn't trust Outsiders and didn't much like the sound of me but because of I demonstrated a couple of things by being look everybody was really very anti-authority then I I don't mean hostile but for people now they they wouldn't have experienced that in the uh late 60s 70s we were so snotty and arrogant we really thought we were going to change the world and that um the laws were all nothing and the way to change them was to break them well that was the kind of vanity we had so um when I got to know the safe crackers uh better there was something really interesting I mean I didn't like the idea you know stealing things seemed a bit tacky but on the other hand they kind of all needed the money from the from their backgrounds and everything but that wasn't so much the the interest it was the technicalities of getting into these things okay um they used to drill through the top um having anchored it with the drill with clamps and and put a kind of little lens inside a cystoscope used in medicine and watch the the wheels turning around this is the old kind of old-fashioned Hollywood style it was yeah and um behind the safe were three discs and you had to line them up and they'd once they got in they'd take the door with them so that the opposition the safe makers wouldn't know how they'd got in and it was a a constant battle between the manufacturers and them because they've come across new safes which had Special Metals in it that was mixed like a a crunchy nut bar very hard metals very soft ones so the drill bit would slip on them snap and you got a sense that this was almost like a game where um they would try something then try to beat them and they were very loyal to each other um they they never spoke out of school as it were um when I got involved with them I'd only have to if I had trouble I don't have to make one phone call and people would appear out of nowhere and I thought yeah this this is kind of better than the treacherous boys school that I I grew up in and how old were you at this point um 19 years old 19. so were you thinking you were making a conscious decision to move into illegal activities or at that point in time and at that point in the world did it feel like more of a kind of a bit of roguish fun would you say I was drawn to it anyway because it was interesting and um I didn't really have a lot of fear I think sometimes what we do or don't do is depending on how scary it seems yeah agreed um I was born with a low resting heart rate as they say you know if it's below 70 you're a risk taker I don't know why that is when the safe crackers retired they put some of their money into growing little crops of weed and so on but profit margin is is only through importing because like the price difference is cheap in the source countries expensive where it sells so because they couldn't do it they were almost throwing it down like a challenge like we don't know anybody who can do this and I thought well I traveled a lot um I didn't think it was going to be impossible um I thought the odds were in my phone and I looked it up I went to the library and sort of researched it a bit and where were you thinking which country Well they um they were very keen to get some um hashish from India or Nepal or somewhere okay I could see um it's bulky and there's packing problems so um they funded me and off I sailed now the operation my first operation was so deplorably bad I'm barely 20 years old I my cunning plan which involved a big piece of exported Machinery which had weights in it so the weights would come out the cash would go in it would weigh the same being returned and it was a piece of Television equipment or something that went South immediately when I didn't realize that I would have to pay a huge deposit in duty to even bring it in as a demo machine so forget that I ended up in short meeting a guy in a money exchange section of a bank I was there because I ran out and I had to send asking for more from the boys and I met him and he wasn't involved in any of this but he soon became that just he managed to get me six kilos of hash I took the 1952 ancient Grundig radio from his parents house the Shelf there guttered the thing like a fish wrapped it up and he had to get cling film in those days think of this before you travel arriving with a suitcase full of cling film doesn't look good I suppose but uh wedged it in there and then just flew back to Sydney now you can imagine what happened well just before we get on to what happened you know one thing that strikes me is what year was would this have been this was uh 77 77 so it's amazing think that back then if someone was going to India for the first time now they could go on Google Maps they could research it or they could find out who they could find phone numbers contacts they could be put in contact with people before they've even set off whereas you must have at that age at that time been going in slightly blind you know touching down in a foreign country that you didn't know well no contacts was that not quite daunting well what was more um troubling with um how everything would fail and then I'd have to um you know come up with another plan what context somebody I knew um um there were no bank robber who joined the hare krishnas and fled to India right and I had his name and and the ashram in Delhi where where he was was supposed to have been uh I didn't really catch up with him on that trip but okay sure so so then you get back to Australia with your radio that is now full to the brim with and I get stopped you you did get stopped okay I could stop because uh I'm I'm on a British passport um and it's the only trip I've ever done and I'm that age I'd stop me oh fatherly type was at the Customs desk now the the systems were different in those days um it was Sydney too which is very and certainly was very relaxed back then right he opened the suitcase uh there was nothing in there except a pair of socks there's a towel wrapping up this massive radio which he lifted up so it was buckled at the sides little red packets poking out oh it smelled like a hedgehog for a patchouliers okay not much of a disguise um he let me go he uh put it back looked around to make sure that none of his workmates were watching him being so soft um and then turned to me and said you're going back there you're going to do this again [Music] all right you can take your we'll call it a radio shall we get out of here what he thought I realized later was that he didn't want the whole grammar of the day arresting me filling out papers and it would have been a a long time plus I guess being a dad he thought if I he's obviously an idiot you're right if I send him into Gladiator Academy or it wasn't really like that in those days but certainly contact center um the prison what am I doing um well I guess uh he was hopeful you know I whilst out of there must have smuggling me but I experienced then what um I got years later which was kind of a real Downer after you know having got nowhere with The Hare krishnas and and cultivated the shoeshine boys and had my money stolen at Amex uh by some Scallywags in Delhi all sorts of Little Adventures over there in India and nonetheless made it it's kind of like that's all there is to it I I didn't really want to give it to anyone um sort of felt like you didn't have a big moment of no a bit of money that came earlier that's handy right uh I paid back what I owed and settled up for for the next thing so but once that was started when you sorry I interrupted you go oh I was just going to say it to finish it even though they'd funded me the guys were very surprised to see me back but at all at all oh you made it oh because some of them say oh you'll just run away with it uh even if that's what he's doing who knows what he's doing you know and then I could see sitting around you can imagine there's like a table full of well like three guys and then a kind of Darkness shrouded over that room I thought uh it's not valuable enough to kill me you know what what is this mood why did you bring that well that's what you've been talking about yeah you could have loaded that with cane or smack or something you guys we say nothing but terrible things about a class or heavy drugs that don't want to know about it right and I could read then that wait a minute there we're all might be guys together and having fun getting into the safe and whatnot but there was a kind of different it was something a very strong lesson I'd have to be thoughtful about that um there could be times where things didn't work out not necessarily that my safety was at risk I didn't see it that way but I knew that there were Ruthless People right okay yeah so you got an insight into a mindset that had been a bit below the surface it was there I just chose not to see it but um I then went on to you know refine everything and Vary everything and then did you after that first time did you were you still working sort of for them or did you immediately well when you wake up on your own when things um I picked up and there was enough money around out of uh out of strategy rather than just being a nice guy I gave my partners a kind of thank you bonus from the next thing that I did but I did that all myself right so it was almost like a yeah separation and I wanted to go back to the my hippie friends anyway they were a little less it wasn't that they were scary but but that didn't last because they were maybe friends might be all right but they will certainly careless and stupid but from from that point onwards after that initial Journey was that you then into the world of smuggling I thought this won't last forever you only need one setback and that changes it I probably made quite a lot of money and I could have got out but and I should have gotta you know I have couriers a leak from one of the the couriers brought the police to me and here was the problem with it it was at first I scattered now I was married to my first wife then clearly Italian girl her dad had restaurants I grabbed her I had a secret drawer with extra passports in it some money ended up four plane Journeys later in um off the Bahamas had the skipper of a day rent yacht and take me out to an island and nobody had ever been on before it was empty sat there on a towel I thought hmm the level of surveillance I had means it's quite a big operation they're funded and I checked with a lawyer before the bigger the money they spent the more determined they'll be stay away or go back I mean I don't know why would anybody do this uh well I wasn't broke um I didn't have to there was no pressure on me the more I went through the problems the more attractive the whole thing is uh she didn't like it much well again do you think because it was a puzzle to be solved because um arrogance really we've gone from basically someone who was kind of mildly interested in making a group of people meeting a group of um safe hackers to someone who pulled off their first thing and then we've jumped to someone who has people working for them and and now is no longer taking the risk themselves now the police are on to you and you're on this desert island well small island and you're thinking about going back into it was this like a turning point in your life in terms of going you know because the other option I suppose was to go straight but were you just more it was that just not an option for you I'd gone to my lawyer Ralph he said look this is what I picked up because I my travel agent had tipped me to a couple of detectives that come in he traveled again while I was in on the phone okay uh actually they're all innocent really yeah you know and and gave him a long list of names um they wanted travel details for and a telephone number which I traced uh to um a private office building which had been rented by state and federal police they were so distrusting of their own they didn't want to even run this thing from um regular police headquarters my lawyer said well what you sure it's you said Ralph look at the list of names there's 30 there I'm 26 of them passports are a lot easier to get back then than there now so you had 26 aliases that you were traveling on yeah right okay um and I described where they were he said David they are funded well they're not bear this in mind but although I what they won't get me with anything they're funded you think they're going to walk away after a year and say oh sorry boss you spend a million dollars and uh nothing doing they don't work like that but this is how stubborn I was I thought because he said the only thing you can do is disappear for at least a couple of years and then you can come back if that's what you want and of course I had justifications for it I thought okay I'll I'll build up a bit more money and then I'll disappear but um it was only after things went terribly badly that I realized I shouldn't play like this anymore what it was they um because the challenge just kept coming so now so did you go back to Australia I went back to Australia and and when I retired within three months right but they weren't waiting for you to arrest you or no no they wanted they wanted something solid okay [Music] um I won't go into the long machinations of it all but um somebody we knew uh was getting things from a Thai Courier and he got arrested he sold us out to the police so that that The Courier would now come to us and I always have some solid evidence right he would bring things but we got away with that because that was another challenge but the police got tired of all this arrested me no drugs of course so it was a difficult case the worst kind of case is that where there's no solid evidence and in a way it's better to go to court where you've got a Smoking Gun and a dead body on the ground because at least you know where you are but where there's nothing tangible and it's conspiracies and this was a huge trial six months long what is that 119 Witnesses 6 000 pages of uh telephone intercept massive thing won't made it worse too and I think this was um would change things for me um the pressure was put on for confessions but it'd be silly to confess and you can't confess on somebody else's behalf can you that's not nice um lots of the family were arrested even my mother was taken and it went oh wow just to put pressure on uh did she know what you did oh she had an idea right okay I mean I used to have bin liners full of money I'd leave behind the fridge yeah you don't get that in the cinema do you not done not a very good day you know uh because they arrested so many people now when they arrested our wives and my business partner Michael his wife just had a baby it was we had to do a deal here I didn't want to but I was going to say I said to Michael look I know you don't like it but we'll play to it get the girls out of trouble we'll Escape that's a good challenge that way [Music] um but unfortunately um the intelligence section put an arsonist Informer in with the girls to get some information her fire was lit uh burnt down the women's prison and my wife and my business partner's wife was were killed uh that's awful and so the Informer that they put in there yeah why did they pick an arsonist for Daniel writer name was I don't know why I remember that after 40 years God so that's quite a big that was oh and and just uh to make things worse the story put about town to scare the careers into talking because they wouldn't speak was that we'd we were killing off all the witnesses and starting with our own family where does that come from um we ended up in a super max prison nightmarish electronic zoo with two inch glass and electronic doors and insane inmates held 48 death rate 27 people a year died in that little supermax going to court in Chains with a SWAT team taking it it was so so much Michael fell to pieces he was just a wreck he didn't make it uh he survived the jail but died when he got out the only way I could survive all of that was to strip away everything I you know I found myself in the supermax concrete everything's concrete the bed everything there's no everything's still just with the tape player from my lure listening to the the tapes the bug tapes the microphones in my house I could play back my life for the last six months clearly you're moving from room to room taking telephone calls she was crying about something I didn't know what I never know and David that's gone immerse yourself in the worst that they have you will not survive this otherwise trial sort of went not so good acquitted of most things but convicted enough 10 years difficult imprisonment but I the only way I could deal with it was to say did I want revenge that was more my fault I brought this about I got her in there I mean a family of a very kind to me about it considering I wouldn't be but it doesn't matter in Chains and super Mech strip it all away it is nothing everyone is a potential enemy everything it just nothing mattered win the day win the night I mean this is a place we had to fill in a book to get some toilet paper the showers were in front of them in a glass box um if you went on a visit they'd zip you up and lock you in a suit so you had no pockets there was after that and her death I felt like there was nothing that could affect me you're wrong about these things you know we're human but I got out and they were there they even visited me to say we'll be on you when you get out the police yeah we enjoyed the old days didn't you yeah I said pretending you know and just to make the point that they were there when I got out um I I'd done a whole lot of Woodwork in the prison in the last place I was at carving intricate things making these really great trick Chinese boxes with beeswax they intercepted the van that was taking it from the prison back to my house and smashed it all to pieces I put it in a box just to say don't think that we will never be here we can do what we want so I decided to leave the country I was um how old am I by then let's work it out yeah uh I started all this Mischief when I was about 18 got arrested at 22. 23 uh um 16 years 17 years either under surveillance or in bad prisons got out and I'm under surveillance again um so how old so you're number 37 about 37. so that's already you know that's a big chunk of Life there but you've lost quite a lot of it to prison or surveillance well at no point now were you like okay and I wasn't a normal person uh really when I got out because of the experience of prison I'd already stripped most of Myself Away to deal with the death of the Superman yeah and and watching people be burnt to death in the place which was frequent somebody had contact glue pulled all over him and then satellite oh God Gods came in and the other one's standing there with a Tire swinging it around to make sure to let him burn let him burn Jesus Barry's name was testicles swollen like apples but black okay he died two hours later in hospital anyway um that was regular account to deal with that I'd already strip things away so when I got a little apartment when I got out and my mother had arranged things for me when they were there when they'd leave rude messages on my answer machine when they'd be behind me everywhere I thought all right I remember this David it never ends if you want to survive go back to the way you were you know in in the super max Anything Can Happen anytime but I didn't want to live like that um I got a fresh passport and most elaborate means um I could spend a week explaining how that came into existence but I went to Thailand to pick up some money I had three days there it was just before Christmas I left at that time on purpose so that they maybe I thought maybe it's their weak point that they want to have families in their life just at Christmas I've parked my mum's car and and left the keys somewhere for her nobody knew were you not meant to leave the country no no no licenses oh I see we're just going to take a minute here to talk about a sponsor of this show which is manscaped we were sent a package to try out by manscaped but Conor one of our producers is already a fan of the brand I believe yeah absolutely I've been using manscape for a little while now and Ben as you know it's that time of year people start asking you what you want for Christmas and I would say that a great gift for a man especially one that might have everything is the manscape performance package 4.0 so what's in that so you get the lawnmower 4.0 electric trimmer you get some anti-chafe boxer shorts which I can vouch for as well as a couple of other grooming products that smell great fantastic well it sounds like a five-star review from uconnor absolutely so Connor you were talking about the performance package there's loads of other great gift ideas such as the hygiene bundle all available at manscape.com com and all gifts that men will genuinely love to receive this Christmas if you are a listener of this podcast you get 20 off and free shipping all you have to do is go to manscape.com and use the code minutes that's manscape.com m-i-n-u-t-e-s minutes um so why are we doing that the risk is it worth it I didn't want to play anymore right I wanted to uh see if I could have a something resembling like a a real life just to find some corner of the world plan was to to return to London and oh so you were leaving forever I'm leaving forever okay I see nobody knew it um I had a couple of hundred thousand in Thailand I thought um which I returned to pick up um now I suppose people say this Crooks always say this most unusual circumstances led to my arrest well they were but then again they always are aren't they or you wouldn't be telling the story or you wouldn't have been arrested but um the USDA was involved lots of people lots of players uh no real drugs are found uh they did an airport sweep and listed me up for like an ounce of something and a false passport or two the money I had just disappeared into pockets but those when I arrived there I felt so free I knew this identity was good I just like floating on air really I slipped out of my protective mode you know that when we stick to the plan and all right you don't want to leave I should have even stayed there for six months just get some sensible view of the world but I I didn't uh and as I went to the airport I could see they were all around me and I melted back into the crowd and disappeared again I thought well that serves me right for changing that attitude I'd had from back in super max and I just glaze over concentrate on the details which I needed to do because when I went to make a phone call later at the travel agency uh waiting it was so depressing being thrown into the Thai prison and I had some idea what they'd be like um people I'd known had been arrested there I knew this much it never won a case you never get out well you get out and what were they arresting you for was it the the uh the passport um what did the the the money wasn't I mean what did they leave 4 000 or something like that right and there are airports we put um I saw the guy walking in with it in a plastic bag you know whatever people throw on the floor before they go through security there was a bit of hash this usual bits of weed but what they really wanted was um this 25 grams of heroin because that would finish me off a policeman um Australian one said was that yours yeah yeah sure it was he said I didn't think so what would you be carrying around that for I mean if it was 10 kilos I might understand but but that was enough the death penalty and was it yours no no no so where where would that come from if you do they do a sweep every afternoon at five o'clock they get tons of it right I get you know nervous passengers go up and then they change their minds and they throw it in the toilet too and were they just did do you think they believed it was yours or do you think they were just going this is we need to give him this bit no no I think they were using it hoping to that would be good to hold and maybe they could get something else find out what I was up to who I was seeing because I had met um somebody who's whose uncle was a big player right so there was there was I think they were optimistic there might be more Camp come out of it but but there wasn't but what difference did it make and I wasn't really worried about um those drugs or the death penalty I wanted to die anyway frankly my first escape plans from there had this I imagine getting out to find the Privacy to kill myself right I wanted to go to the dusa Tony Hotel I knew Which floor and where to get onto the roof I'd taken photographs from there many years before um they were you simply couldn't get a moment's piece dormitories with 150 guys in them screaming all night um we can't even take a crap in peace in the Thai prison We're Not Afraid though of what killing myself well no I mean I don't know being brutalized by the guards or the inmates so well I knew enough about Thailand to to know that it was a little more comic than than bad there were very bad things happen they used to um they've beaten people a couple of people get beaten to death every day there but it's a very big prison we have to get that in proportion I only wish they wouldn't use the food trolley to take the dead bodies out because um you know they don't clean them up um and could you speak the language or were you quite it was a quite different communication uh not really uh and the few languages that uh pitch up in my travels I always found that even if you know them it's better to pretend you don't okay um because they'll talk about you behind your back you know certainly didn't live it on there was I I just couldn't see any point I'd gone to such elaborate precautions on this trip um it just shouldn't have happened and I even got away from the airport and still it happened oh all that confidence that I'll figure a way out I didn't care anymore I just had enough um and I remember seeing an old guy there if you had to go to court they put change on you and um you'd line up on the ground now this old guy I was looking at him because I don't know why a big soundtrack went past he had the presence of mind to push his head under that sand truck and oh it twisted it around popped like a watermelon being dropped on the ground oh my God guys very annoyed told the trustees to get that thing away out of sight was that nice thing called it I thought you Brave bastard you yeah you've got the guts to do that was it not quite a disturbing thing to witness no it was shocking because if you haven't seen it kind of thing up close and I happen to be looking um it was uh but that that's how I felt about it but I was saved In The End by a con man and people say a lot of bad things about economy they do yes they do and they uh you can't be trusted uh they are rottenness and they will cheat you just because they're the Scorpion that's in their nature uh but sometimes they're just what you need and this rather smooth um Bostonian American um who spoke Thai and really knew his way around and I you know I thought the somewhere in this huge prison there'd be an enclave of rich and corrupt foreigners with loads of money and there'd be luxuries it wasn't there was nobody of any importance in there you know a couple of big sacrifices had been made but um a couple of very rich policemen who were in the hospital in intensive care but other than that it was it was just um the people who reached the absolute bottom Drifters in Asia who did run after run and then got sacrificed to the machine they'd get about four jobs a big Syndicate there operating careers had run four times bang they'd shot them to the police they'd be gone oh God they will turn told the same story and it was Joe it was this guest house it was such and such identical and um and and at this point had you been sentenced to death had you received oh no no no I I was trying to avoid that yeah once I came to my senses because the the Boston con had so many wonderful schemes medical thing to get me bail and know some way of a escape with a go to court I get snatched from there I had villains come over and and scope out the court too because there was a way I thought of getting out of there from the lift that took you up to the the building uh snatched from the middle as you go down changed into a different set of clothes but they all got scared thing about um some of our most loved uh and fearless villains they're pretty good in the local manner but you throw them into a place like that where people carry machine guns and shoot at will just for the hell of it not so confident they like the upper edge of being snakes um so I couldn't convince anybody to really help and it was just as well um and two and a half years passed there in this prison it's a long time it was I sort of perked up a little bit pulled myself together started exercising um got a couple of ATM cards over hadn't my favorite god um he was in charge of the the building bought myself a room renovated um so you had you bought a room within the prison that was just for you rented that's rented right you know and is that an official thing that you're allowed to do right there are places in the world where it's official right but you had an influx of money that you could pay for special treats you could survive there on um less than 500 pounds a month and be king oh wow was this the 70s or the 80s now by the way we're into um 90 495 19 the 495 because what's reported about you is that during the 80s you were a multi-millionaire um is that accurate um now what do we call a multi-millionaires a young halfway with a million and a quarter on a glass coffee table and looks around the living room and thinks I've got to get a sofa one of these days um oh goes to the car auctions in the morning buys a big yank tank with a 427 Chevy engine in it um drives it around makes his own car parking spaces you know we're smashing the front in backing the other one pushing the other cars out of the way um oh stoned off my head most of the time uh if I wasn't stunned enough I'd take a few mandracks just to colludes icing on the cake um so I didn't take care of the money and the money didn't take care of me so I guess I'm like the reason I the reason I asked was because it must have been quite a stark change going from a very rich existence to basically somewhere where you basically couldn't pay for anything initially and it was a very poor existence but I guess from what you're saying there it's not like you felt like you were Rich at the time um I've made that contrast a few times when I had my first big arrest I couldn't as I was in a cold near lightless cell of blue stone and horse hair mattress about two inches thick and wrecking a piss I would think back to the night before when I had my important to tell in huge bed and Irish linen sheets and swimming pool out there and um and we had to kind of shake off the contrast but that rubber banding must must have been hard to take because it's you're going from basically the aspiration of almost everyone where you're talking about just buying cars outright and having a swimming pool to a piss stinking bed you know it must be it was you know it's odd thing about it was providing I could see a way out a work a way out I didn't so much mind oh okay um I really trained myself to expect my whatever world I built up and and this happened several times I've done it five times had a new identity New Life new surroundings even new people and dang they're gone and every time it got worse um and there was even Thailand was desperately important because even though it was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it um you know I was somebody that nobody minded killing um so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah there's nothing like the prospect of being executed by a machine gun which is the way they did it God is that what it would have been wow yeah you know oh they'd have three guards all with a bit of string on the trigger and they'd all pull it once so that none of them could be condemned in the Buddhist sense of sin oh they don't even actually right I see it caused the bullet that finished you off oh I see so you're in the Thai prison you've been sentenced to uh rather unpleasant death penalty um how did you start coming up with this famous plan for escaping um desperation it was the last plan that looked like it was going to work um there were probably about 20 plans considered um everything from being the prison held I've since found out it holds 22 000 people oh my God in 10 sub prisons uh there's a women's section there's a young offenders there's a special reminder a drug unit all of that um just a wild place it has everything it even had a prisoner-run shop where you could extract you could borrow money against your account and cash anyway um one of the plans involved being welded into a VW Combi van in the prisons Auto Workshop which would be picked up early Monday morning and I'd be driven out and that another one was um there were several courtroom ones and you couldn't just pay your way out no no it's just you could pay to have a mobile phone which in those days was a rare thing but they were around um you could pay for a bottle of clong uh whiskey you could pay I'm sure you could pay to get a a girl in your room if you could work out what a room was that a whole section full of ladyboys there and got a building full of them they used to open it up on Saturdays so um you could pay for anything but not to leave they couldn't cover that and they couldn't trust each other you would need 25 30 different guards paid off and and the gods of visitors I mean too many guides no that wouldn't work and they looked at it as a kind of betrayal only if I saw two escapes attempts there one group of uh straight kids and a Singaporean got out of their cell incredibly turned themselves into the sleeping God when they'd all lied to each other about what they didn't have you know the ropes and ways out because they're it was so outraged that they'd spoiled the guys jobs they beat them to death slowly tortured them over three months to death having put them in little code lockers the soy they call them drag them out in elephant chains every day and batter them senseless uh internal bleeding usually did it um look I've got a bowl of rice and a painting to poo in that was it um even the water was it was just too horrible so if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off even my Swedish friends Sten the Viking he backed out at the last minute I couldn't get people to go with me all the other plants had fallen to bits because they depended on other people I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars and I needed equipment for that and here's a really important point I guess as bad as this world is you've got to try to find good people if you ask somebody if you asked your friend yeah and and you're finished you'll manage to get a phone call and say friend it's been here um I need you to get um I don't know four hacksaw blades and cut them into the dowel rods of a of a poster and then paint it all up and send it in a huge package with this that cable ties gaffer tape but disguise all that how many people are going to do it turn around wouldn't believe it Ben called me what his neck yeah he's screwed but anyway he wouldn't believe but he wants me to do this that now people don't do it but Michael on the other hand our business partner wouldn't even let me explain he hadn't heard from me in 18 months he said David don't explain I'm sure we could get cut off tell me the important part now where do I have to be and what do I have to bring no that's a friend um and so I've always tried to do the same for the others that I've known like that um but um I did get the equipment together that I needed and everything um about escapes from a big prison is not like your hope it's going to be you know I turned it out walked around the streets and it had streets inside it um and timed it with my trusty Casio and it was so I knew roughly how long it would take to get me but the night's a different world I'm a prisoner I'm only used to noise during the day even the fan chopping around in the Cell at night it's so quiet everything I did squeaked and rattled and twisted I came across a panel that had to be a nail had to come out and that and they'll protest it and scream their wrench out of the way it took um uh seven or eight worlds uh sorry seven or eight walls to cross over I say worlds because they really were every building was a different thing and I got lost and I went past the terminal AIDS Ward that building hundreds of guys all die and I could smell it before I got there because this necrotic Rotting Flesh and I couldn't resist looking in I'm carrying this huge long ladder made out of bamboo poles and fake picture frames gaffer taped along the center [Music] um and I looked up and I saw all these little faces in the Moonlight wrapped in so much pain and despair they didn't have the energy to cry out to the guards if they'd been in any other prisoners they would have the trustees there were absolute scum of the earth had whistled little uniforms sell the drugs one day and the rest of the guys for it the next all of that um and it was only by um well I only got to the outer wall by Dawn and if somebody had been with me I wouldn't have made it either you wouldn't have no imagine I've taken all night to get there and at each point where this something was unexpected I've had to dream up something and I get a little basic toolkit and I sometimes I'd have to sacrifice part of my ladder to make a hook to pull down barbed wire and the technique for using the thing was awkward you had to prop it walk up drop down the other side so you're twisting over the walls like that manual is entirely barbed wire so I had to go underneath it covered in mud the the last one was really too high and there was a Mars bar Creek the the moat that ran around I did you know if I was with somebody else we'd be arguing wouldn't we oh Spa Creek oh it was full of turds bombing around it was caught out of the sewer yeah you did ask um illustrative okay we're just gonna take a quick break from the show to talk about a sponsor of this episode better help better help is an online Counseling Service which connects people to therapists and counselors I'm joined by one of our producers bryony is counseling something you've had experience with do you know what it's interesting because when I was growing up the same kind of challenges in life would happen but people wouldn't necessarily go to therapy or talk about therapy and I feel like since uh maybe my late teens early 20s people are starting to go to therapy and talking about it and I have definitely used it in my life and it's been massively beneficial same and do you because I think one of the things that people often mistake they think it's just for big things yeah but what's the other experience of that thing I think life always throws you know small challenges and large challenges and sometimes the big things need talking about but actually you know starting a new school or starting a new job can rile up that same level of anxiety and it's just really helpful to be able to talk to someone about it who is completely impartial not involved in your life and just kind of a safe space I guess to just say whatever you want to say you completely agree as the world's largest therapy service better help as much 3 million people with professionally licensed and vetted therapists available 100 online plus it's affordable just fill out a brief questionnaire to match with a therapist if things aren't clicking you can easily switch to a new therapist anytime it couldn't be simpler no waiting rooms no traffic no endless searching for the right therapist learn more and save 10 of your first month at betterhelp.com minutes with that's betterhelp help help.com minutes with um now there was one way of oh Beyond marsburg create this a foot and a half of land before this huge huge wall you've got to get a ladder that's too heavy to carry too imbalanced to do anything with but you've got a bit of rope how do you get it to the other side of Mars bar which has all got tangled barb wire in that so it'll catch get it in place and up against the wall when you've got no ground to to walk on now there is a way and uh I guess people have to listen to me describe it either to you or in my book okay fine but too long to tell here sure but um I could see the glow of dawn as I got to the top which had electricity running through it too just to make it the top of the wall dead yeah yeah wow but um my friend who um was in there a bit of a technician is to belong to the anarchist Society in in Britain how would you belong to a society that has rules when you anyway putting that aside he did tell me that it would only be 240 volts but to be careful um and just managed to get over that and because the original plan was to um oh there was an outer moat beyond that of 20 meters I had my clothes ready to go into a plastic bag swim the moat but just as well I didn't um because all it turned out all the guards houses were over the other side of that moat this would not be a place to go but I cleaned myself up threw some clothes on and I one of the jobs that I didn't do but I was supposed to be doing was working in the Umbrella Factory so I paid a local boy to do it um I've got a pop-up umbrella from there I thought you know you really get a perspective about I want to just simple discrimination but being an outsider a foreigner the way sometimes people feel picked upon you know we were called the white trash and we were in in Chains and everything so I knew I had to cover my face in the popular did it and I managed to get to a place where a passport was hidden and to the airport and still had a working ATM card to get me out of the country into Singapore so did you end up with the umbrella did you walk out the front gate yeah I did I had some long trousers on now in their prisoners are not allowed to wear them so I had some khaki pants I thought they might as I walked around the the narrow path to the front gate it's still mote but a little Bridge I thought another figure it's a guard arriving late and sneaking in and I did I felt like Ripley an alien uh looking at thinking lucky lucky this is where it all ends doesn't it and I'm thinking that every moment and looking up and there was just enough light rain to justify the umbrella yeah I would learn later that was actually the not a rain from the gods but the spittle of their laughter because they had worse things in mind for me later on I mean it's so it's you know how many people are you aware how many people had escaped from that prison up to that point was it some every year or was it very infrequent none um the ties sometimes ran away when they were doing the gardens in Chains outside but Escape From Within um I'd known of in 20 years people could recall two attempts no foreigners um and they didn't trust the foreigners that's why they put you on the third floor right quite rightly yes and and how long had it taken you from like the beginning of the uh I started cutting at um 11 45 I paid a lot to get a light switch in there normally the lights are on all the time um okay and I said to my favorite guard oh yeah Ponting or whatever his name was I can't sleep with that thing I'll put a light switch in um um now they didn't say it as corruption or bribe taking they thought I'm doing this nice guy a favor and I'll be lucky because of it that's a very big thing over there you know if I get caught I'm unlucky then so they can batter me to death I mean sure it's kind of self-justifies any action that a human being might take so he started cutting around eight for 11 45 11 45 okay it's quite close through one bar by two in the morning oh God stencia listen we'll go on the next note I looked around and Kevin the American from Hawaii I didn't even know this was happening uh Mirage the Indian I know he's going to talk the next morning he was kakaria LA pantaloni right in the cell never mind holding out and not saying anything he would have it would have been finished I never would have made it and I guess I could have seen the missing bars potentially but I learned later on I actually caught up with somebody who was in there Scottish guy um he was there for selling ecstasy to the Two well-off Sons and Daughters of wealthy policemen anyway um he remembers they the guards couldn't figure that I'd left oh um he said David they ran around the the prison calling out your name it was Daniel Westlake while I was there Daniel Daniel they okay that somebody drew their attention to the cut bar in there yeah my Scottish friend said they the gods wanted they thought that okay he's got out he's angry about something uh Daniel but he's not actually he'll never get out he couldn't get it they never found the the ladder down the front wall until much much later so for um uh uh only one of them said oh we better check the airport they sent a couple of guys down there um just a little bit late and you were gone by then only just and remember man you've got a passport from a Chinese connection that you barely know but kind of like the cut of his jib but are you gonna put your life on the line on that and at every moment you're handing it over you know like the look of it yeah they don't like the look of it they're typing it up and you're thinking they got onto the computer have they done that bit uh have they entered my arrival was this I knew it was freshly stolen or sold off was only a few weeks old uh I mean not new was had only gone missing a few weeks earlier so it was still good but very nerve-wracking and I didn't have a photo I had to use my old um uh radio operators license that had a photograph in it to get reproduced into this thing so it was a bit grainy um and even on the plane it was delay and takeoff oh God and a mumbling Captain oh sorry um we we have a thing with one passenger I just asked what thing exactly soon enough thwomp doors to manual oh but I've got an hour you know looking at this passport I don't like it get to Singapore but I make it through so you got to Singapore yeah but you did end up going back to prison not a Thai prison but a different prison he's suggesting uh I did something wrong well I'm hoping you're going to tell me um no well okay uh I didn't stay in Singapore long because um I sat there in the hotel room unable to digest food not prepared by my own cook sure I in the hotel room in Singapore I realized you could work out who had left that day if they'd flown my air by simply going to the airport and children you work it out yourselves at home you check everybody who's left separate the foreigners hmm go a step further let's keep the Canadian and American the British the Australian New Zealand all the English-speaking passport Society um just to you know reduce the numbers take those names check with the embassies any of these names belong to lost or stolen passports that have been reported yeah five of them because that's Bangkok you know not the only Mischief maker there but nonetheless um they probably knew I could be who was I Charles McClintock hmm sorry Charles I had to borrow your passport but it was an essential cause but you're not wanted anymore of course are you no but I did get an unwelcome knock at the door some years ago uh by the police who um would it be to go excuse me Westminster Court known for the terrorist cases extradition or parking fights wow I'd lift the car anywhere lately so it was going to be one of the other two and it was extradition to Thailand I fought that case for two years and um it was difficult um but managed to effectively win in the end so the ties have dropped that one and I can't be taken back there I'm not wanted anywhere um I can nobody can do what they want but um I I'm not I haven't got anything pending I'm not in business I'm a bit cautious I even got sent something in the the mail a few years ago and I thought it was some gift from some halfway ambitious wombat in in Pakistan sending me a bit of dope thinking oh yeah there's a gift you might like that connection made no I mean people had my address all around the world ever since Danny Dyer um it turned out to be more complicated than that but um very dangerous for me to walk into a courtroom so I don't even imagine you're me and knock at the door oh here's something for you Ben you don't like the look of it you refuse it you're in court no matter why did you refuse that was it your name no you was up The Jig was up proof ladies and gentlemen oh you accept it ah you accepted it proof ladies and gentlemen wife saying to me Jeanette and whom I met in Pakistan years ago and she was there to fish out her husband on a two-ton hash deal he didn't make it anyway um she said throw the thing away I'm thinking in court again ladies and gentlemen he threw the stuff away I can't win so very cautious about all that kind of stuff um fair enough but I take it you won't be going for a holiday to Thailand anytime soon I didn't think so okay so how many do you know off the top of your head of your life how many years of your life have you spent in prison ultimately I did add it up once I'm 66 now and I suppose I've spent um but 22 years the thing that occurs to me and I met you before and I thought the same thing is like you obviously extremely intelligent extremely resourceful it can't be well but well anyway but do you regret the choices you made in terms of do you see those 22 years in prison as something you had no control over it's just the way the dice rolled or do you see them as a mistake on your part um worse than a mistake mistake suggest you didn't know uh where you were going wrong I was taking those steps into uh of a precipice that I'd defied there is no gravity I said I said I will work out something before I hit the ground um when I was It was kind of in stages when I was young it was just arrogance and and showing off and later on when everything was destroyed it was kind of I'd scraped away all of my life and would just go on um then in the third stage it was escaping away from places rebuilding up and being weakened every time it was taken away again um and do I regret it yeah I'm sure I um no you know some people say oh yeah but David just smuggled everything on Earth you scumbag you you know um think of the lives you've destroyed and the people you've heard ah and I go to start to explain that it's not quite black and white uh I mean I've had drug habits myself that I've carelessly allowed um but I thought what's the point anything I say we just sound like self-justification so well don't listen to me then you know but things that have happened that have taught me a lot it's interesting you say that because one of a lot of the comments on our well on the first video we did a lot of the comments where people saying someone needs to make a movie about this guy but a lot of the other comments were people saying he's so charismatic and likable but he must be a really dangerous person to have been involved with all these worlds for so long and um we've interviewed a couple of drug smugglers and I would say they're the ones that I've met have been the ones that probably are more someone you'd see is traditionally quite an obviously dangerous person you come across as very Charming charismatic roguish where do you see yourself on that scale do you see yourself as someone who was dangerous or do you see yourself as someone who's just moved from area to area as it occurred um kind of like this a dangerous I suppose what most people see that and you know if somebody was a problem for me would I find the best option to have them killed or not but really there always was a kind of Vestige of that's a failure if you can't think of anything better than to have them killed then then then what are you doing there's a million clever ways of solving your problems and that besides which there's always going to be people you can't kill everybody um not only that who killed the killers that you've got to do the killing you know you know they always say that about the quiet ones and all of that but it was the people who bothered to put up a smoke screen um they're establishing a um later Alibi a courtroom personality but I met him he didn't seem bothered by all of that why would he have him killed and those are the ones that um seem to be more dangerous and if I was such a dangerous person like that I certainly been absolute fool to break from that mold and say otherwise wouldn't it very true David it's great to see you again thank you so much for coming in always a pleasure yeah and I've Got a Feeling we'll be seeing you again at some point as well it's possible it does may cross thank you I'll be like oh my God they're in my head they they know they know that was a song and so they put that song on the radio and it's all everything revolves around me or you know and this happened well sometimes happens today you know I'm I'm thinking of someone in my head someone under there like on the street	he lifted up so it was buckled at the sides little red packets poking out oh it smelled like a hedgehog for a patchouliers okay not much of a disguise um he let me go he uh put it back looked around to make sure that none of his workmates were watching him being so soft um and then turned to me and said you're going back there you're going to do this again [Music] all right you can take your we'll call it a radio shall we get out of here what he thought I realized later was that he didn't want the whole grammar of the day arresting me filling out papers and it would have been a a long time plus I guess being a dad he thought if I he's obviously an idiot you're right if I send him into Gladiator Academy or it wasn't really like that in those days but certainly contact center um the prison what am I doing um well I guess uh he was hopeful you know I whilst out of there must have smuggling me but I experienced then what um I got years later which was kind of a real Downer after you know having got nowhere with The Hare krishnas and and cultivated the shoeshine boys and had my money stolen at Amex uh by some Scallywags in Delhi all sorts of Little Adventures over there in India and nonetheless made it it's kind of like that's all	-2	4	6	he let me go he uh put it back looked around to make sure that none of his workmates were watching him being so soft um and then turned to me and said you're going back there you're going to do this again	you're going back there you're going to do this again	0,2,5	3,5,8	0	2	5	3	5	8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyZyHHexx7s	4,101	oyZyHHexx7s	2022-12-07 00:00:00	even though I was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off I couldn't get people to go with me I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars [Music] it's great to have you back David obviously we've met before but for anyone who doesn't know who you are for new listeners or new viewers could you give us a brief introduction to what you are famous for well I suppose uh most well known for uh having escaped to prison in Thailand in Bangkok uh the biggest one they have there clong Prim it uh wasn't something I did frivolously I was going to be executed within a couple of weeks so it seemed like a good time to leave okay now um we're going to get into that in a bit more detail but one thing that I remember about you from last time is you're the most incredible talker and we took away the inter the initial interview we've done with you and ended up having to make it into two long episodes because you have a lot of different very colorful uh experiences so do forgive me if I Jimmy us through oh no I can understand that I mean the only place I never talk is in the police station I always like some of my uh work colleagues took um what was it one slap to get them talking but five to shut them up oh okay so let's go right back to the beginning um you were born in the UK and then I believe you emigrated to Australia well um it was all a family thing yes I was born in basewater in London I spent the first few years of my life then uh there but my parents broke up divorced and I went with my mother to Australia with my older sister so I don't have any really very early memories of London apart from some old eight millimeter movie footage of me learning to walk in Hyde Park my dad was waving a five pound note in front of my face and I was making every effort to grab it I continued that behavior for many many years afterwards returned to Australia um finished some schooling um got really contrasting jobs I worked in an adult Agency for a while um but also before that I was got a job in a cinema now it was the and under literally an underground place but it was there that I got introduced to a bunch of crooks um some of the girls there had boyfriends that I used to run down with um strange boxes or bits of money or fur coats and then wink at me bolt out the back door pursued by often policemen undercover ones of course whom we'd misdirect somewhere but that Circle they were um safe crackers and they really didn't trust Outsiders and didn't much like the sound of me but because of I demonstrated a couple of things by being look everybody was really very anti-authority then I I don't mean hostile but for people now they they wouldn't have experienced that in the uh late 60s 70s we were so snotty and arrogant we really thought we were going to change the world and that um the laws were all nothing and the way to change them was to break them well that was the kind of vanity we had so um when I got to know the safe crackers uh better there was something really interesting I mean I didn't like the idea you know stealing things seemed a bit tacky but on the other hand they kind of all needed the money from the from their backgrounds and everything but that wasn't so much the the interest it was the technicalities of getting into these things okay um they used to drill through the top um having anchored it with the drill with clamps and and put a kind of little lens inside a cystoscope used in medicine and watch the the wheels turning around this is the old kind of old-fashioned Hollywood style it was yeah and um behind the safe were three discs and you had to line them up and they'd once they got in they'd take the door with them so that the opposition the safe makers wouldn't know how they'd got in and it was a a constant battle between the manufacturers and them because they've come across new safes which had Special Metals in it that was mixed like a a crunchy nut bar very hard metals very soft ones so the drill bit would slip on them snap and you got a sense that this was almost like a game where um they would try something then try to beat them and they were very loyal to each other um they they never spoke out of school as it were um when I got involved with them I'd only have to if I had trouble I don't have to make one phone call and people would appear out of nowhere and I thought yeah this this is kind of better than the treacherous boys school that I I grew up in and how old were you at this point um 19 years old 19. so were you thinking you were making a conscious decision to move into illegal activities or at that point in time and at that point in the world did it feel like more of a kind of a bit of roguish fun would you say I was drawn to it anyway because it was interesting and um I didn't really have a lot of fear I think sometimes what we do or don't do is depending on how scary it seems yeah agreed um I was born with a low resting heart rate as they say you know if it's below 70 you're a risk taker I don't know why that is when the safe crackers retired they put some of their money into growing little crops of weed and so on but profit margin is is only through importing because like the price difference is cheap in the source countries expensive where it sells so because they couldn't do it they were almost throwing it down like a challenge like we don't know anybody who can do this and I thought well I traveled a lot um I didn't think it was going to be impossible um I thought the odds were in my phone and I looked it up I went to the library and sort of researched it a bit and where were you thinking which country Well they um they were very keen to get some um hashish from India or Nepal or somewhere okay I could see um it's bulky and there's packing problems so um they funded me and off I sailed now the operation my first operation was so deplorably bad I'm barely 20 years old I my cunning plan which involved a big piece of exported Machinery which had weights in it so the weights would come out the cash would go in it would weigh the same being returned and it was a piece of Television equipment or something that went South immediately when I didn't realize that I would have to pay a huge deposit in duty to even bring it in as a demo machine so forget that I ended up in short meeting a guy in a money exchange section of a bank I was there because I ran out and I had to send asking for more from the boys and I met him and he wasn't involved in any of this but he soon became that just he managed to get me six kilos of hash I took the 1952 ancient Grundig radio from his parents house the Shelf there guttered the thing like a fish wrapped it up and he had to get cling film in those days think of this before you travel arriving with a suitcase full of cling film doesn't look good I suppose but uh wedged it in there and then just flew back to Sydney now you can imagine what happened well just before we get on to what happened you know one thing that strikes me is what year was would this have been this was uh 77 77 so it's amazing think that back then if someone was going to India for the first time now they could go on Google Maps they could research it or they could find out who they could find phone numbers contacts they could be put in contact with people before they've even set off whereas you must have at that age at that time been going in slightly blind you know touching down in a foreign country that you didn't know well no contacts was that not quite daunting well what was more um troubling with um how everything would fail and then I'd have to um you know come up with another plan what context somebody I knew um um there were no bank robber who joined the hare krishnas and fled to India right and I had his name and and the ashram in Delhi where where he was was supposed to have been uh I didn't really catch up with him on that trip but okay sure so so then you get back to Australia with your radio that is now full to the brim with and I get stopped you you did get stopped okay I could stop because uh I'm I'm on a British passport um and it's the only trip I've ever done and I'm that age I'd stop me oh fatherly type was at the Customs desk now the the systems were different in those days um it was Sydney too which is very and certainly was very relaxed back then right he opened the suitcase uh there was nothing in there except a pair of socks there's a towel wrapping up this massive radio which he lifted up so it was buckled at the sides little red packets poking out oh it smelled like a hedgehog for a patchouliers okay not much of a disguise um he let me go he uh put it back looked around to make sure that none of his workmates were watching him being so soft um and then turned to me and said you're going back there you're going to do this again [Music] all right you can take your we'll call it a radio shall we get out of here what he thought I realized later was that he didn't want the whole grammar of the day arresting me filling out papers and it would have been a a long time plus I guess being a dad he thought if I he's obviously an idiot you're right if I send him into Gladiator Academy or it wasn't really like that in those days but certainly contact center um the prison what am I doing um well I guess uh he was hopeful you know I whilst out of there must have smuggling me but I experienced then what um I got years later which was kind of a real Downer after you know having got nowhere with The Hare krishnas and and cultivated the shoeshine boys and had my money stolen at Amex uh by some Scallywags in Delhi all sorts of Little Adventures over there in India and nonetheless made it it's kind of like that's all there is to it I I didn't really want to give it to anyone um sort of felt like you didn't have a big moment of no a bit of money that came earlier that's handy right uh I paid back what I owed and settled up for for the next thing so but once that was started when you sorry I interrupted you go oh I was just going to say it to finish it even though they'd funded me the guys were very surprised to see me back but at all at all oh you made it oh because some of them say oh you'll just run away with it uh even if that's what he's doing who knows what he's doing you know and then I could see sitting around you can imagine there's like a table full of well like three guys and then a kind of Darkness shrouded over that room I thought uh it's not valuable enough to kill me you know what what is this mood why did you bring that well that's what you've been talking about yeah you could have loaded that with cane or smack or something you guys we say nothing but terrible things about a class or heavy drugs that don't want to know about it right and I could read then that wait a minute there we're all might be guys together and having fun getting into the safe and whatnot but there was a kind of different it was something a very strong lesson I'd have to be thoughtful about that um there could be times where things didn't work out not necessarily that my safety was at risk I didn't see it that way but I knew that there were Ruthless People right okay yeah so you got an insight into a mindset that had been a bit below the surface it was there I just chose not to see it but um I then went on to you know refine everything and Vary everything and then did you after that first time did you were you still working sort of for them or did you immediately well when you wake up on your own when things um I picked up and there was enough money around out of uh out of strategy rather than just being a nice guy I gave my partners a kind of thank you bonus from the next thing that I did but I did that all myself right so it was almost like a yeah separation and I wanted to go back to the my hippie friends anyway they were a little less it wasn't that they were scary but but that didn't last because they were maybe friends might be all right but they will certainly careless and stupid but from from that point onwards after that initial Journey was that you then into the world of smuggling I thought this won't last forever you only need one setback and that changes it I probably made quite a lot of money and I could have got out but and I should have gotta you know I have couriers a leak from one of the the couriers brought the police to me and here was the problem with it it was at first I scattered now I was married to my first wife then clearly Italian girl her dad had restaurants I grabbed her I had a secret drawer with extra passports in it some money ended up four plane Journeys later in um off the Bahamas had the skipper of a day rent yacht and take me out to an island and nobody had ever been on before it was empty sat there on a towel I thought hmm the level of surveillance I had means it's quite a big operation they're funded and I checked with a lawyer before the bigger the money they spent the more determined they'll be stay away or go back I mean I don't know why would anybody do this uh well I wasn't broke um I didn't have to there was no pressure on me the more I went through the problems the more attractive the whole thing is uh she didn't like it much well again do you think because it was a puzzle to be solved because um arrogance really we've gone from basically someone who was kind of mildly interested in making a group of people meeting a group of um safe hackers to someone who pulled off their first thing and then we've jumped to someone who has people working for them and and now is no longer taking the risk themselves now the police are on to you and you're on this desert island well small island and you're thinking about going back into it was this like a turning point in your life in terms of going you know because the other option I suppose was to go straight but were you just more it was that just not an option for you I'd gone to my lawyer Ralph he said look this is what I picked up because I my travel agent had tipped me to a couple of detectives that come in he traveled again while I was in on the phone okay uh actually they're all innocent really yeah you know and and gave him a long list of names um they wanted travel details for and a telephone number which I traced uh to um a private office building which had been rented by state and federal police they were so distrusting of their own they didn't want to even run this thing from um regular police headquarters my lawyer said well what you sure it's you said Ralph look at the list of names there's 30 there I'm 26 of them passports are a lot easier to get back then than there now so you had 26 aliases that you were traveling on yeah right okay um and I described where they were he said David they are funded well they're not bear this in mind but although I what they won't get me with anything they're funded you think they're going to walk away after a year and say oh sorry boss you spend a million dollars and uh nothing doing they don't work like that but this is how stubborn I was I thought because he said the only thing you can do is disappear for at least a couple of years and then you can come back if that's what you want and of course I had justifications for it I thought okay I'll I'll build up a bit more money and then I'll disappear but um it was only after things went terribly badly that I realized I shouldn't play like this anymore what it was they um because the challenge just kept coming so now so did you go back to Australia I went back to Australia and and when I retired within three months right but they weren't waiting for you to arrest you or no no they wanted they wanted something solid okay [Music] um I won't go into the long machinations of it all but um somebody we knew uh was getting things from a Thai Courier and he got arrested he sold us out to the police so that that The Courier would now come to us and I always have some solid evidence right he would bring things but we got away with that because that was another challenge but the police got tired of all this arrested me no drugs of course so it was a difficult case the worst kind of case is that where there's no solid evidence and in a way it's better to go to court where you've got a Smoking Gun and a dead body on the ground because at least you know where you are but where there's nothing tangible and it's conspiracies and this was a huge trial six months long what is that 119 Witnesses 6 000 pages of uh telephone intercept massive thing won't made it worse too and I think this was um would change things for me um the pressure was put on for confessions but it'd be silly to confess and you can't confess on somebody else's behalf can you that's not nice um lots of the family were arrested even my mother was taken and it went oh wow just to put pressure on uh did she know what you did oh she had an idea right okay I mean I used to have bin liners full of money I'd leave behind the fridge yeah you don't get that in the cinema do you not done not a very good day you know uh because they arrested so many people now when they arrested our wives and my business partner Michael his wife just had a baby it was we had to do a deal here I didn't want to but I was going to say I said to Michael look I know you don't like it but we'll play to it get the girls out of trouble we'll Escape that's a good challenge that way [Music] um but unfortunately um the intelligence section put an arsonist Informer in with the girls to get some information her fire was lit uh burnt down the women's prison and my wife and my business partner's wife was were killed uh that's awful and so the Informer that they put in there yeah why did they pick an arsonist for Daniel writer name was I don't know why I remember that after 40 years God so that's quite a big that was oh and and just uh to make things worse the story put about town to scare the careers into talking because they wouldn't speak was that we'd we were killing off all the witnesses and starting with our own family where does that come from um we ended up in a super max prison nightmarish electronic zoo with two inch glass and electronic doors and insane inmates held 48 death rate 27 people a year died in that little supermax going to court in Chains with a SWAT team taking it it was so so much Michael fell to pieces he was just a wreck he didn't make it uh he survived the jail but died when he got out the only way I could survive all of that was to strip away everything I you know I found myself in the supermax concrete everything's concrete the bed everything there's no everything's still just with the tape player from my lure listening to the the tapes the bug tapes the microphones in my house I could play back my life for the last six months clearly you're moving from room to room taking telephone calls she was crying about something I didn't know what I never know and David that's gone immerse yourself in the worst that they have you will not survive this otherwise trial sort of went not so good acquitted of most things but convicted enough 10 years difficult imprisonment but I the only way I could deal with it was to say did I want revenge that was more my fault I brought this about I got her in there I mean a family of a very kind to me about it considering I wouldn't be but it doesn't matter in Chains and super Mech strip it all away it is nothing everyone is a potential enemy everything it just nothing mattered win the day win the night I mean this is a place we had to fill in a book to get some toilet paper the showers were in front of them in a glass box um if you went on a visit they'd zip you up and lock you in a suit so you had no pockets there was after that and her death I felt like there was nothing that could affect me you're wrong about these things you know we're human but I got out and they were there they even visited me to say we'll be on you when you get out the police yeah we enjoyed the old days didn't you yeah I said pretending you know and just to make the point that they were there when I got out um I I'd done a whole lot of Woodwork in the prison in the last place I was at carving intricate things making these really great trick Chinese boxes with beeswax they intercepted the van that was taking it from the prison back to my house and smashed it all to pieces I put it in a box just to say don't think that we will never be here we can do what we want so I decided to leave the country I was um how old am I by then let's work it out yeah uh I started all this Mischief when I was about 18 got arrested at 22. 23 uh um 16 years 17 years either under surveillance or in bad prisons got out and I'm under surveillance again um so how old so you're number 37 about 37. so that's already you know that's a big chunk of Life there but you've lost quite a lot of it to prison or surveillance well at no point now were you like okay and I wasn't a normal person uh really when I got out because of the experience of prison I'd already stripped most of Myself Away to deal with the death of the Superman yeah and and watching people be burnt to death in the place which was frequent somebody had contact glue pulled all over him and then satellite oh God Gods came in and the other one's standing there with a Tire swinging it around to make sure to let him burn let him burn Jesus Barry's name was testicles swollen like apples but black okay he died two hours later in hospital anyway um that was regular account to deal with that I'd already strip things away so when I got a little apartment when I got out and my mother had arranged things for me when they were there when they'd leave rude messages on my answer machine when they'd be behind me everywhere I thought all right I remember this David it never ends if you want to survive go back to the way you were you know in in the super max Anything Can Happen anytime but I didn't want to live like that um I got a fresh passport and most elaborate means um I could spend a week explaining how that came into existence but I went to Thailand to pick up some money I had three days there it was just before Christmas I left at that time on purpose so that they maybe I thought maybe it's their weak point that they want to have families in their life just at Christmas I've parked my mum's car and and left the keys somewhere for her nobody knew were you not meant to leave the country no no no licenses oh I see we're just going to take a minute here to talk about a sponsor of this show which is manscaped we were sent a package to try out by manscaped but Conor one of our producers is already a fan of the brand I believe yeah absolutely I've been using manscape for a little while now and Ben as you know it's that time of year people start asking you what you want for Christmas and I would say that a great gift for a man especially one that might have everything is the manscape performance package 4.0 so what's in that so you get the lawnmower 4.0 electric trimmer you get some anti-chafe boxer shorts which I can vouch for as well as a couple of other grooming products that smell great fantastic well it sounds like a five-star review from uconnor absolutely so Connor you were talking about the performance package there's loads of other great gift ideas such as the hygiene bundle all available at manscape.com com and all gifts that men will genuinely love to receive this Christmas if you are a listener of this podcast you get 20 off and free shipping all you have to do is go to manscape.com and use the code minutes that's manscape.com m-i-n-u-t-e-s minutes um so why are we doing that the risk is it worth it I didn't want to play anymore right I wanted to uh see if I could have a something resembling like a a real life just to find some corner of the world plan was to to return to London and oh so you were leaving forever I'm leaving forever okay I see nobody knew it um I had a couple of hundred thousand in Thailand I thought um which I returned to pick up um now I suppose people say this Crooks always say this most unusual circumstances led to my arrest well they were but then again they always are aren't they or you wouldn't be telling the story or you wouldn't have been arrested but um the USDA was involved lots of people lots of players uh no real drugs are found uh they did an airport sweep and listed me up for like an ounce of something and a false passport or two the money I had just disappeared into pockets but those when I arrived there I felt so free I knew this identity was good I just like floating on air really I slipped out of my protective mode you know that when we stick to the plan and all right you don't want to leave I should have even stayed there for six months just get some sensible view of the world but I I didn't uh and as I went to the airport I could see they were all around me and I melted back into the crowd and disappeared again I thought well that serves me right for changing that attitude I'd had from back in super max and I just glaze over concentrate on the details which I needed to do because when I went to make a phone call later at the travel agency uh waiting it was so depressing being thrown into the Thai prison and I had some idea what they'd be like um people I'd known had been arrested there I knew this much it never won a case you never get out well you get out and what were they arresting you for was it the the uh the passport um what did the the the money wasn't I mean what did they leave 4 000 or something like that right and there are airports we put um I saw the guy walking in with it in a plastic bag you know whatever people throw on the floor before they go through security there was a bit of hash this usual bits of weed but what they really wanted was um this 25 grams of heroin because that would finish me off a policeman um Australian one said was that yours yeah yeah sure it was he said I didn't think so what would you be carrying around that for I mean if it was 10 kilos I might understand but but that was enough the death penalty and was it yours no no no so where where would that come from if you do they do a sweep every afternoon at five o'clock they get tons of it right I get you know nervous passengers go up and then they change their minds and they throw it in the toilet too and were they just did do you think they believed it was yours or do you think they were just going this is we need to give him this bit no no I think they were using it hoping to that would be good to hold and maybe they could get something else find out what I was up to who I was seeing because I had met um somebody who's whose uncle was a big player right so there was there was I think they were optimistic there might be more Camp come out of it but but there wasn't but what difference did it make and I wasn't really worried about um those drugs or the death penalty I wanted to die anyway frankly my first escape plans from there had this I imagine getting out to find the Privacy to kill myself right I wanted to go to the dusa Tony Hotel I knew Which floor and where to get onto the roof I'd taken photographs from there many years before um they were you simply couldn't get a moment's piece dormitories with 150 guys in them screaming all night um we can't even take a crap in peace in the Thai prison We're Not Afraid though of what killing myself well no I mean I don't know being brutalized by the guards or the inmates so well I knew enough about Thailand to to know that it was a little more comic than than bad there were very bad things happen they used to um they've beaten people a couple of people get beaten to death every day there but it's a very big prison we have to get that in proportion I only wish they wouldn't use the food trolley to take the dead bodies out because um you know they don't clean them up um and could you speak the language or were you quite it was a quite different communication uh not really uh and the few languages that uh pitch up in my travels I always found that even if you know them it's better to pretend you don't okay um because they'll talk about you behind your back you know certainly didn't live it on there was I I just couldn't see any point I'd gone to such elaborate precautions on this trip um it just shouldn't have happened and I even got away from the airport and still it happened oh all that confidence that I'll figure a way out I didn't care anymore I just had enough um and I remember seeing an old guy there if you had to go to court they put change on you and um you'd line up on the ground now this old guy I was looking at him because I don't know why a big soundtrack went past he had the presence of mind to push his head under that sand truck and oh it twisted it around popped like a watermelon being dropped on the ground oh my God guys very annoyed told the trustees to get that thing away out of sight was that nice thing called it I thought you Brave bastard you yeah you've got the guts to do that was it not quite a disturbing thing to witness no it was shocking because if you haven't seen it kind of thing up close and I happen to be looking um it was uh but that that's how I felt about it but I was saved In The End by a con man and people say a lot of bad things about economy they do yes they do and they uh you can't be trusted uh they are rottenness and they will cheat you just because they're the Scorpion that's in their nature uh but sometimes they're just what you need and this rather smooth um Bostonian American um who spoke Thai and really knew his way around and I you know I thought the somewhere in this huge prison there'd be an enclave of rich and corrupt foreigners with loads of money and there'd be luxuries it wasn't there was nobody of any importance in there you know a couple of big sacrifices had been made but um a couple of very rich policemen who were in the hospital in intensive care but other than that it was it was just um the people who reached the absolute bottom Drifters in Asia who did run after run and then got sacrificed to the machine they'd get about four jobs a big Syndicate there operating careers had run four times bang they'd shot them to the police they'd be gone oh God they will turn told the same story and it was Joe it was this guest house it was such and such identical and um and and at this point had you been sentenced to death had you received oh no no no I I was trying to avoid that yeah once I came to my senses because the the Boston con had so many wonderful schemes medical thing to get me bail and know some way of a escape with a go to court I get snatched from there I had villains come over and and scope out the court too because there was a way I thought of getting out of there from the lift that took you up to the the building uh snatched from the middle as you go down changed into a different set of clothes but they all got scared thing about um some of our most loved uh and fearless villains they're pretty good in the local manner but you throw them into a place like that where people carry machine guns and shoot at will just for the hell of it not so confident they like the upper edge of being snakes um so I couldn't convince anybody to really help and it was just as well um and two and a half years passed there in this prison it's a long time it was I sort of perked up a little bit pulled myself together started exercising um got a couple of ATM cards over hadn't my favorite god um he was in charge of the the building bought myself a room renovated um so you had you bought a room within the prison that was just for you rented that's rented right you know and is that an official thing that you're allowed to do right there are places in the world where it's official right but you had an influx of money that you could pay for special treats you could survive there on um less than 500 pounds a month and be king oh wow was this the 70s or the 80s now by the way we're into um 90 495 19 the 495 because what's reported about you is that during the 80s you were a multi-millionaire um is that accurate um now what do we call a multi-millionaires a young halfway with a million and a quarter on a glass coffee table and looks around the living room and thinks I've got to get a sofa one of these days um oh goes to the car auctions in the morning buys a big yank tank with a 427 Chevy engine in it um drives it around makes his own car parking spaces you know we're smashing the front in backing the other one pushing the other cars out of the way um oh stoned off my head most of the time uh if I wasn't stunned enough I'd take a few mandracks just to colludes icing on the cake um so I didn't take care of the money and the money didn't take care of me so I guess I'm like the reason I the reason I asked was because it must have been quite a stark change going from a very rich existence to basically somewhere where you basically couldn't pay for anything initially and it was a very poor existence but I guess from what you're saying there it's not like you felt like you were Rich at the time um I've made that contrast a few times when I had my first big arrest I couldn't as I was in a cold near lightless cell of blue stone and horse hair mattress about two inches thick and wrecking a piss I would think back to the night before when I had my important to tell in huge bed and Irish linen sheets and swimming pool out there and um and we had to kind of shake off the contrast but that rubber banding must must have been hard to take because it's you're going from basically the aspiration of almost everyone where you're talking about just buying cars outright and having a swimming pool to a piss stinking bed you know it must be it was you know it's odd thing about it was providing I could see a way out a work a way out I didn't so much mind oh okay um I really trained myself to expect my whatever world I built up and and this happened several times I've done it five times had a new identity New Life new surroundings even new people and dang they're gone and every time it got worse um and there was even Thailand was desperately important because even though it was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it um you know I was somebody that nobody minded killing um so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah there's nothing like the prospect of being executed by a machine gun which is the way they did it God is that what it would have been wow yeah you know oh they'd have three guards all with a bit of string on the trigger and they'd all pull it once so that none of them could be condemned in the Buddhist sense of sin oh they don't even actually right I see it caused the bullet that finished you off oh I see so you're in the Thai prison you've been sentenced to uh rather unpleasant death penalty um how did you start coming up with this famous plan for escaping um desperation it was the last plan that looked like it was going to work um there were probably about 20 plans considered um everything from being the prison held I've since found out it holds 22 000 people oh my God in 10 sub prisons uh there's a women's section there's a young offenders there's a special reminder a drug unit all of that um just a wild place it has everything it even had a prisoner-run shop where you could extract you could borrow money against your account and cash anyway um one of the plans involved being welded into a VW Combi van in the prisons Auto Workshop which would be picked up early Monday morning and I'd be driven out and that another one was um there were several courtroom ones and you couldn't just pay your way out no no it's just you could pay to have a mobile phone which in those days was a rare thing but they were around um you could pay for a bottle of clong uh whiskey you could pay I'm sure you could pay to get a a girl in your room if you could work out what a room was that a whole section full of ladyboys there and got a building full of them they used to open it up on Saturdays so um you could pay for anything but not to leave they couldn't cover that and they couldn't trust each other you would need 25 30 different guards paid off and and the gods of visitors I mean too many guides no that wouldn't work and they looked at it as a kind of betrayal only if I saw two escapes attempts there one group of uh straight kids and a Singaporean got out of their cell incredibly turned themselves into the sleeping God when they'd all lied to each other about what they didn't have you know the ropes and ways out because they're it was so outraged that they'd spoiled the guys jobs they beat them to death slowly tortured them over three months to death having put them in little code lockers the soy they call them drag them out in elephant chains every day and batter them senseless uh internal bleeding usually did it um look I've got a bowl of rice and a painting to poo in that was it um even the water was it was just too horrible so if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off even my Swedish friends Sten the Viking he backed out at the last minute I couldn't get people to go with me all the other plants had fallen to bits because they depended on other people I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars and I needed equipment for that and here's a really important point I guess as bad as this world is you've got to try to find good people if you ask somebody if you asked your friend yeah and and you're finished you'll manage to get a phone call and say friend it's been here um I need you to get um I don't know four hacksaw blades and cut them into the dowel rods of a of a poster and then paint it all up and send it in a huge package with this that cable ties gaffer tape but disguise all that how many people are going to do it turn around wouldn't believe it Ben called me what his neck yeah he's screwed but anyway he wouldn't believe but he wants me to do this that now people don't do it but Michael on the other hand our business partner wouldn't even let me explain he hadn't heard from me in 18 months he said David don't explain I'm sure we could get cut off tell me the important part now where do I have to be and what do I have to bring no that's a friend um and so I've always tried to do the same for the others that I've known like that um but um I did get the equipment together that I needed and everything um about escapes from a big prison is not like your hope it's going to be you know I turned it out walked around the streets and it had streets inside it um and timed it with my trusty Casio and it was so I knew roughly how long it would take to get me but the night's a different world I'm a prisoner I'm only used to noise during the day even the fan chopping around in the Cell at night it's so quiet everything I did squeaked and rattled and twisted I came across a panel that had to be a nail had to come out and that and they'll protest it and scream their wrench out of the way it took um uh seven or eight worlds uh sorry seven or eight walls to cross over I say worlds because they really were every building was a different thing and I got lost and I went past the terminal AIDS Ward that building hundreds of guys all die and I could smell it before I got there because this necrotic Rotting Flesh and I couldn't resist looking in I'm carrying this huge long ladder made out of bamboo poles and fake picture frames gaffer taped along the center [Music] um and I looked up and I saw all these little faces in the Moonlight wrapped in so much pain and despair they didn't have the energy to cry out to the guards if they'd been in any other prisoners they would have the trustees there were absolute scum of the earth had whistled little uniforms sell the drugs one day and the rest of the guys for it the next all of that um and it was only by um well I only got to the outer wall by Dawn and if somebody had been with me I wouldn't have made it either you wouldn't have no imagine I've taken all night to get there and at each point where this something was unexpected I've had to dream up something and I get a little basic toolkit and I sometimes I'd have to sacrifice part of my ladder to make a hook to pull down barbed wire and the technique for using the thing was awkward you had to prop it walk up drop down the other side so you're twisting over the walls like that manual is entirely barbed wire so I had to go underneath it covered in mud the the last one was really too high and there was a Mars bar Creek the the moat that ran around I did you know if I was with somebody else we'd be arguing wouldn't we oh Spa Creek oh it was full of turds bombing around it was caught out of the sewer yeah you did ask um illustrative okay we're just gonna take a quick break from the show to talk about a sponsor of this episode better help better help is an online Counseling Service which connects people to therapists and counselors I'm joined by one of our producers bryony is counseling something you've had experience with do you know what it's interesting because when I was growing up the same kind of challenges in life would happen but people wouldn't necessarily go to therapy or talk about therapy and I feel like since uh maybe my late teens early 20s people are starting to go to therapy and talking about it and I have definitely used it in my life and it's been massively beneficial same and do you because I think one of the things that people often mistake they think it's just for big things yeah but what's the other experience of that thing I think life always throws you know small challenges and large challenges and sometimes the big things need talking about but actually you know starting a new school or starting a new job can rile up that same level of anxiety and it's just really helpful to be able to talk to someone about it who is completely impartial not involved in your life and just kind of a safe space I guess to just say whatever you want to say you completely agree as the world's largest therapy service better help as much 3 million people with professionally licensed and vetted therapists available 100 online plus it's affordable just fill out a brief questionnaire to match with a therapist if things aren't clicking you can easily switch to a new therapist anytime it couldn't be simpler no waiting rooms no traffic no endless searching for the right therapist learn more and save 10 of your first month at betterhelp.com minutes with that's betterhelp help help.com minutes with um now there was one way of oh Beyond marsburg create this a foot and a half of land before this huge huge wall you've got to get a ladder that's too heavy to carry too imbalanced to do anything with but you've got a bit of rope how do you get it to the other side of Mars bar which has all got tangled barb wire in that so it'll catch get it in place and up against the wall when you've got no ground to to walk on now there is a way and uh I guess people have to listen to me describe it either to you or in my book okay fine but too long to tell here sure but um I could see the glow of dawn as I got to the top which had electricity running through it too just to make it the top of the wall dead yeah yeah wow but um my friend who um was in there a bit of a technician is to belong to the anarchist Society in in Britain how would you belong to a society that has rules when you anyway putting that aside he did tell me that it would only be 240 volts but to be careful um and just managed to get over that and because the original plan was to um oh there was an outer moat beyond that of 20 meters I had my clothes ready to go into a plastic bag swim the moat but just as well I didn't um because all it turned out all the guards houses were over the other side of that moat this would not be a place to go but I cleaned myself up threw some clothes on and I one of the jobs that I didn't do but I was supposed to be doing was working in the Umbrella Factory so I paid a local boy to do it um I've got a pop-up umbrella from there I thought you know you really get a perspective about I want to just simple discrimination but being an outsider a foreigner the way sometimes people feel picked upon you know we were called the white trash and we were in in Chains and everything so I knew I had to cover my face in the popular did it and I managed to get to a place where a passport was hidden and to the airport and still had a working ATM card to get me out of the country into Singapore so did you end up with the umbrella did you walk out the front gate yeah I did I had some long trousers on now in their prisoners are not allowed to wear them so I had some khaki pants I thought they might as I walked around the the narrow path to the front gate it's still mote but a little Bridge I thought another figure it's a guard arriving late and sneaking in and I did I felt like Ripley an alien uh looking at thinking lucky lucky this is where it all ends doesn't it and I'm thinking that every moment and looking up and there was just enough light rain to justify the umbrella yeah I would learn later that was actually the not a rain from the gods but the spittle of their laughter because they had worse things in mind for me later on I mean it's so it's you know how many people are you aware how many people had escaped from that prison up to that point was it some every year or was it very infrequent none um the ties sometimes ran away when they were doing the gardens in Chains outside but Escape From Within um I'd known of in 20 years people could recall two attempts no foreigners um and they didn't trust the foreigners that's why they put you on the third floor right quite rightly yes and and how long had it taken you from like the beginning of the uh I started cutting at um 11 45 I paid a lot to get a light switch in there normally the lights are on all the time um okay and I said to my favorite guard oh yeah Ponting or whatever his name was I can't sleep with that thing I'll put a light switch in um um now they didn't say it as corruption or bribe taking they thought I'm doing this nice guy a favor and I'll be lucky because of it that's a very big thing over there you know if I get caught I'm unlucky then so they can batter me to death I mean sure it's kind of self-justifies any action that a human being might take so he started cutting around eight for 11 45 11 45 okay it's quite close through one bar by two in the morning oh God stencia listen we'll go on the next note I looked around and Kevin the American from Hawaii I didn't even know this was happening uh Mirage the Indian I know he's going to talk the next morning he was kakaria LA pantaloni right in the cell never mind holding out and not saying anything he would have it would have been finished I never would have made it and I guess I could have seen the missing bars potentially but I learned later on I actually caught up with somebody who was in there Scottish guy um he was there for selling ecstasy to the Two well-off Sons and Daughters of wealthy policemen anyway um he remembers they the guards couldn't figure that I'd left oh um he said David they ran around the the prison calling out your name it was Daniel Westlake while I was there Daniel Daniel they okay that somebody drew their attention to the cut bar in there yeah my Scottish friend said they the gods wanted they thought that okay he's got out he's angry about something uh Daniel but he's not actually he'll never get out he couldn't get it they never found the the ladder down the front wall until much much later so for um uh uh only one of them said oh we better check the airport they sent a couple of guys down there um just a little bit late and you were gone by then only just and remember man you've got a passport from a Chinese connection that you barely know but kind of like the cut of his jib but are you gonna put your life on the line on that and at every moment you're handing it over you know like the look of it yeah they don't like the look of it they're typing it up and you're thinking they got onto the computer have they done that bit uh have they entered my arrival was this I knew it was freshly stolen or sold off was only a few weeks old uh I mean not new was had only gone missing a few weeks earlier so it was still good but very nerve-wracking and I didn't have a photo I had to use my old um uh radio operators license that had a photograph in it to get reproduced into this thing so it was a bit grainy um and even on the plane it was delay and takeoff oh God and a mumbling Captain oh sorry um we we have a thing with one passenger I just asked what thing exactly soon enough thwomp doors to manual oh but I've got an hour you know looking at this passport I don't like it get to Singapore but I make it through so you got to Singapore yeah but you did end up going back to prison not a Thai prison but a different prison he's suggesting uh I did something wrong well I'm hoping you're going to tell me um no well okay uh I didn't stay in Singapore long because um I sat there in the hotel room unable to digest food not prepared by my own cook sure I in the hotel room in Singapore I realized you could work out who had left that day if they'd flown my air by simply going to the airport and children you work it out yourselves at home you check everybody who's left separate the foreigners hmm go a step further let's keep the Canadian and American the British the Australian New Zealand all the English-speaking passport Society um just to you know reduce the numbers take those names check with the embassies any of these names belong to lost or stolen passports that have been reported yeah five of them because that's Bangkok you know not the only Mischief maker there but nonetheless um they probably knew I could be who was I Charles McClintock hmm sorry Charles I had to borrow your passport but it was an essential cause but you're not wanted anymore of course are you no but I did get an unwelcome knock at the door some years ago uh by the police who um would it be to go excuse me Westminster Court known for the terrorist cases extradition or parking fights wow I'd lift the car anywhere lately so it was going to be one of the other two and it was extradition to Thailand I fought that case for two years and um it was difficult um but managed to effectively win in the end so the ties have dropped that one and I can't be taken back there I'm not wanted anywhere um I can nobody can do what they want but um I I'm not I haven't got anything pending I'm not in business I'm a bit cautious I even got sent something in the the mail a few years ago and I thought it was some gift from some halfway ambitious wombat in in Pakistan sending me a bit of dope thinking oh yeah there's a gift you might like that connection made no I mean people had my address all around the world ever since Danny Dyer um it turned out to be more complicated than that but um very dangerous for me to walk into a courtroom so I don't even imagine you're me and knock at the door oh here's something for you Ben you don't like the look of it you refuse it you're in court no matter why did you refuse that was it your name no you was up The Jig was up proof ladies and gentlemen oh you accept it ah you accepted it proof ladies and gentlemen wife saying to me Jeanette and whom I met in Pakistan years ago and she was there to fish out her husband on a two-ton hash deal he didn't make it anyway um she said throw the thing away I'm thinking in court again ladies and gentlemen he threw the stuff away I can't win so very cautious about all that kind of stuff um fair enough but I take it you won't be going for a holiday to Thailand anytime soon I didn't think so okay so how many do you know off the top of your head of your life how many years of your life have you spent in prison ultimately I did add it up once I'm 66 now and I suppose I've spent um but 22 years the thing that occurs to me and I met you before and I thought the same thing is like you obviously extremely intelligent extremely resourceful it can't be well but well anyway but do you regret the choices you made in terms of do you see those 22 years in prison as something you had no control over it's just the way the dice rolled or do you see them as a mistake on your part um worse than a mistake mistake suggest you didn't know uh where you were going wrong I was taking those steps into uh of a precipice that I'd defied there is no gravity I said I said I will work out something before I hit the ground um when I was It was kind of in stages when I was young it was just arrogance and and showing off and later on when everything was destroyed it was kind of I'd scraped away all of my life and would just go on um then in the third stage it was escaping away from places rebuilding up and being weakened every time it was taken away again um and do I regret it yeah I'm sure I um no you know some people say oh yeah but David just smuggled everything on Earth you scumbag you you know um think of the lives you've destroyed and the people you've heard ah and I go to start to explain that it's not quite black and white uh I mean I've had drug habits myself that I've carelessly allowed um but I thought what's the point anything I say we just sound like self-justification so well don't listen to me then you know but things that have happened that have taught me a lot it's interesting you say that because one of a lot of the comments on our well on the first video we did a lot of the comments where people saying someone needs to make a movie about this guy but a lot of the other comments were people saying he's so charismatic and likable but he must be a really dangerous person to have been involved with all these worlds for so long and um we've interviewed a couple of drug smugglers and I would say they're the ones that I've met have been the ones that probably are more someone you'd see is traditionally quite an obviously dangerous person you come across as very Charming charismatic roguish where do you see yourself on that scale do you see yourself as someone who was dangerous or do you see yourself as someone who's just moved from area to area as it occurred um kind of like this a dangerous I suppose what most people see that and you know if somebody was a problem for me would I find the best option to have them killed or not but really there always was a kind of Vestige of that's a failure if you can't think of anything better than to have them killed then then then what are you doing there's a million clever ways of solving your problems and that besides which there's always going to be people you can't kill everybody um not only that who killed the killers that you've got to do the killing you know you know they always say that about the quiet ones and all of that but it was the people who bothered to put up a smoke screen um they're establishing a um later Alibi a courtroom personality but I met him he didn't seem bothered by all of that why would he have him killed and those are the ones that um seem to be more dangerous and if I was such a dangerous person like that I certainly been absolute fool to break from that mold and say otherwise wouldn't it very true David it's great to see you again thank you so much for coming in always a pleasure yeah and I've Got a Feeling we'll be seeing you again at some point as well it's possible it does may cross thank you I'll be like oh my God they're in my head they they know they know that was a song and so they put that song on the radio and it's all everything revolves around me or you know and this happened well sometimes happens today you know I'm I'm thinking of someone in my head someone under there like on the street	there is to it I I didn't really want to give it to anyone um sort of felt like you didn't have a big moment of no a bit of money that came earlier that's handy right uh I paid back what I owed and settled up for for the next thing so but once that was started when you sorry I interrupted you go oh I was just going to say it to finish it even though they'd funded me the guys were very surprised to see me back but at all at all oh you made it oh because some of them say oh you'll just run away with it uh even if that's what he's doing who knows what he's doing you know and then I could see sitting around you can imagine there's like a table full of well like three guys and then a kind of Darkness shrouded over that room I thought uh it's not valuable enough to kill me you know what what is this mood why did you bring that well that's what you've been talking about yeah you could have loaded that with cane or smack or something you guys we say nothing but terrible things about a class or heavy drugs that don't want to know about it right and I could read then that wait a minute there we're all might be guys together and having fun getting into the safe and whatnot but there was a kind of	-2	4	-5	I didn't really want to give it to anyone um sort of felt like you didn't have a big moment of no a bit of money that came earlier that's handy right uh I paid back what I owed and settled up for for the next thing so but once that was started when you sorry I interrupted you go oh I was just going to say it to finish it even though they'd funded me the guys were very surprised to see me back but at all at all oh you made it oh because some of them say oh you'll just run away with it uh even if that's what he's doing who knows what he's doing you know and then I could see sitting around you can imagine there's like a table full of well like three guys and then a kind of Darkness shrouded over that room I thought uh it's not valuable enough to kill me you know what what is this mood why did you bring that well that's what you've been talking about yeah you could have loaded that with cane or smack or something you guys we say nothing but terrible things about a class or heavy drugs that don't want to know about it right and I could read then that wait a minute there we're all might be guys together and having fun getting into the safe and whatnot but there was a kind of	oh, you made it, oh	-2,4,3	6,2,5	-2	4	3	6	2	5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyZyHHexx7s	4,101	oyZyHHexx7s	2022-12-07 00:00:00	even though I was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off I couldn't get people to go with me I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars [Music] it's great to have you back David obviously we've met before but for anyone who doesn't know who you are for new listeners or new viewers could you give us a brief introduction to what you are famous for well I suppose uh most well known for uh having escaped to prison in Thailand in Bangkok uh the biggest one they have there clong Prim it uh wasn't something I did frivolously I was going to be executed within a couple of weeks so it seemed like a good time to leave okay now um we're going to get into that in a bit more detail but one thing that I remember about you from last time is you're the most incredible talker and we took away the inter the initial interview we've done with you and ended up having to make it into two long episodes because you have a lot of different very colorful uh experiences so do forgive me if I Jimmy us through oh no I can understand that I mean the only place I never talk is in the police station I always like some of my uh work colleagues took um what was it one slap to get them talking but five to shut them up oh okay so let's go right back to the beginning um you were born in the UK and then I believe you emigrated to Australia well um it was all a family thing yes I was born in basewater in London I spent the first few years of my life then uh there but my parents broke up divorced and I went with my mother to Australia with my older sister so I don't have any really very early memories of London apart from some old eight millimeter movie footage of me learning to walk in Hyde Park my dad was waving a five pound note in front of my face and I was making every effort to grab it I continued that behavior for many many years afterwards returned to Australia um finished some schooling um got really contrasting jobs I worked in an adult Agency for a while um but also before that I was got a job in a cinema now it was the and under literally an underground place but it was there that I got introduced to a bunch of crooks um some of the girls there had boyfriends that I used to run down with um strange boxes or bits of money or fur coats and then wink at me bolt out the back door pursued by often policemen undercover ones of course whom we'd misdirect somewhere but that Circle they were um safe crackers and they really didn't trust Outsiders and didn't much like the sound of me but because of I demonstrated a couple of things by being look everybody was really very anti-authority then I I don't mean hostile but for people now they they wouldn't have experienced that in the uh late 60s 70s we were so snotty and arrogant we really thought we were going to change the world and that um the laws were all nothing and the way to change them was to break them well that was the kind of vanity we had so um when I got to know the safe crackers uh better there was something really interesting I mean I didn't like the idea you know stealing things seemed a bit tacky but on the other hand they kind of all needed the money from the from their backgrounds and everything but that wasn't so much the the interest it was the technicalities of getting into these things okay um they used to drill through the top um having anchored it with the drill with clamps and and put a kind of little lens inside a cystoscope used in medicine and watch the the wheels turning around this is the old kind of old-fashioned Hollywood style it was yeah and um behind the safe were three discs and you had to line them up and they'd once they got in they'd take the door with them so that the opposition the safe makers wouldn't know how they'd got in and it was a a constant battle between the manufacturers and them because they've come across new safes which had Special Metals in it that was mixed like a a crunchy nut bar very hard metals very soft ones so the drill bit would slip on them snap and you got a sense that this was almost like a game where um they would try something then try to beat them and they were very loyal to each other um they they never spoke out of school as it were um when I got involved with them I'd only have to if I had trouble I don't have to make one phone call and people would appear out of nowhere and I thought yeah this this is kind of better than the treacherous boys school that I I grew up in and how old were you at this point um 19 years old 19. so were you thinking you were making a conscious decision to move into illegal activities or at that point in time and at that point in the world did it feel like more of a kind of a bit of roguish fun would you say I was drawn to it anyway because it was interesting and um I didn't really have a lot of fear I think sometimes what we do or don't do is depending on how scary it seems yeah agreed um I was born with a low resting heart rate as they say you know if it's below 70 you're a risk taker I don't know why that is when the safe crackers retired they put some of their money into growing little crops of weed and so on but profit margin is is only through importing because like the price difference is cheap in the source countries expensive where it sells so because they couldn't do it they were almost throwing it down like a challenge like we don't know anybody who can do this and I thought well I traveled a lot um I didn't think it was going to be impossible um I thought the odds were in my phone and I looked it up I went to the library and sort of researched it a bit and where were you thinking which country Well they um they were very keen to get some um hashish from India or Nepal or somewhere okay I could see um it's bulky and there's packing problems so um they funded me and off I sailed now the operation my first operation was so deplorably bad I'm barely 20 years old I my cunning plan which involved a big piece of exported Machinery which had weights in it so the weights would come out the cash would go in it would weigh the same being returned and it was a piece of Television equipment or something that went South immediately when I didn't realize that I would have to pay a huge deposit in duty to even bring it in as a demo machine so forget that I ended up in short meeting a guy in a money exchange section of a bank I was there because I ran out and I had to send asking for more from the boys and I met him and he wasn't involved in any of this but he soon became that just he managed to get me six kilos of hash I took the 1952 ancient Grundig radio from his parents house the Shelf there guttered the thing like a fish wrapped it up and he had to get cling film in those days think of this before you travel arriving with a suitcase full of cling film doesn't look good I suppose but uh wedged it in there and then just flew back to Sydney now you can imagine what happened well just before we get on to what happened you know one thing that strikes me is what year was would this have been this was uh 77 77 so it's amazing think that back then if someone was going to India for the first time now they could go on Google Maps they could research it or they could find out who they could find phone numbers contacts they could be put in contact with people before they've even set off whereas you must have at that age at that time been going in slightly blind you know touching down in a foreign country that you didn't know well no contacts was that not quite daunting well what was more um troubling with um how everything would fail and then I'd have to um you know come up with another plan what context somebody I knew um um there were no bank robber who joined the hare krishnas and fled to India right and I had his name and and the ashram in Delhi where where he was was supposed to have been uh I didn't really catch up with him on that trip but okay sure so so then you get back to Australia with your radio that is now full to the brim with and I get stopped you you did get stopped okay I could stop because uh I'm I'm on a British passport um and it's the only trip I've ever done and I'm that age I'd stop me oh fatherly type was at the Customs desk now the the systems were different in those days um it was Sydney too which is very and certainly was very relaxed back then right he opened the suitcase uh there was nothing in there except a pair of socks there's a towel wrapping up this massive radio which he lifted up so it was buckled at the sides little red packets poking out oh it smelled like a hedgehog for a patchouliers okay not much of a disguise um he let me go he uh put it back looked around to make sure that none of his workmates were watching him being so soft um and then turned to me and said you're going back there you're going to do this again [Music] all right you can take your we'll call it a radio shall we get out of here what he thought I realized later was that he didn't want the whole grammar of the day arresting me filling out papers and it would have been a a long time plus I guess being a dad he thought if I he's obviously an idiot you're right if I send him into Gladiator Academy or it wasn't really like that in those days but certainly contact center um the prison what am I doing um well I guess uh he was hopeful you know I whilst out of there must have smuggling me but I experienced then what um I got years later which was kind of a real Downer after you know having got nowhere with The Hare krishnas and and cultivated the shoeshine boys and had my money stolen at Amex uh by some Scallywags in Delhi all sorts of Little Adventures over there in India and nonetheless made it it's kind of like that's all there is to it I I didn't really want to give it to anyone um sort of felt like you didn't have a big moment of no a bit of money that came earlier that's handy right uh I paid back what I owed and settled up for for the next thing so but once that was started when you sorry I interrupted you go oh I was just going to say it to finish it even though they'd funded me the guys were very surprised to see me back but at all at all oh you made it oh because some of them say oh you'll just run away with it uh even if that's what he's doing who knows what he's doing you know and then I could see sitting around you can imagine there's like a table full of well like three guys and then a kind of Darkness shrouded over that room I thought uh it's not valuable enough to kill me you know what what is this mood why did you bring that well that's what you've been talking about yeah you could have loaded that with cane or smack or something you guys we say nothing but terrible things about a class or heavy drugs that don't want to know about it right and I could read then that wait a minute there we're all might be guys together and having fun getting into the safe and whatnot but there was a kind of different it was something a very strong lesson I'd have to be thoughtful about that um there could be times where things didn't work out not necessarily that my safety was at risk I didn't see it that way but I knew that there were Ruthless People right okay yeah so you got an insight into a mindset that had been a bit below the surface it was there I just chose not to see it but um I then went on to you know refine everything and Vary everything and then did you after that first time did you were you still working sort of for them or did you immediately well when you wake up on your own when things um I picked up and there was enough money around out of uh out of strategy rather than just being a nice guy I gave my partners a kind of thank you bonus from the next thing that I did but I did that all myself right so it was almost like a yeah separation and I wanted to go back to the my hippie friends anyway they were a little less it wasn't that they were scary but but that didn't last because they were maybe friends might be all right but they will certainly careless and stupid but from from that point onwards after that initial Journey was that you then into the world of smuggling I thought this won't last forever you only need one setback and that changes it I probably made quite a lot of money and I could have got out but and I should have gotta you know I have couriers a leak from one of the the couriers brought the police to me and here was the problem with it it was at first I scattered now I was married to my first wife then clearly Italian girl her dad had restaurants I grabbed her I had a secret drawer with extra passports in it some money ended up four plane Journeys later in um off the Bahamas had the skipper of a day rent yacht and take me out to an island and nobody had ever been on before it was empty sat there on a towel I thought hmm the level of surveillance I had means it's quite a big operation they're funded and I checked with a lawyer before the bigger the money they spent the more determined they'll be stay away or go back I mean I don't know why would anybody do this uh well I wasn't broke um I didn't have to there was no pressure on me the more I went through the problems the more attractive the whole thing is uh she didn't like it much well again do you think because it was a puzzle to be solved because um arrogance really we've gone from basically someone who was kind of mildly interested in making a group of people meeting a group of um safe hackers to someone who pulled off their first thing and then we've jumped to someone who has people working for them and and now is no longer taking the risk themselves now the police are on to you and you're on this desert island well small island and you're thinking about going back into it was this like a turning point in your life in terms of going you know because the other option I suppose was to go straight but were you just more it was that just not an option for you I'd gone to my lawyer Ralph he said look this is what I picked up because I my travel agent had tipped me to a couple of detectives that come in he traveled again while I was in on the phone okay uh actually they're all innocent really yeah you know and and gave him a long list of names um they wanted travel details for and a telephone number which I traced uh to um a private office building which had been rented by state and federal police they were so distrusting of their own they didn't want to even run this thing from um regular police headquarters my lawyer said well what you sure it's you said Ralph look at the list of names there's 30 there I'm 26 of them passports are a lot easier to get back then than there now so you had 26 aliases that you were traveling on yeah right okay um and I described where they were he said David they are funded well they're not bear this in mind but although I what they won't get me with anything they're funded you think they're going to walk away after a year and say oh sorry boss you spend a million dollars and uh nothing doing they don't work like that but this is how stubborn I was I thought because he said the only thing you can do is disappear for at least a couple of years and then you can come back if that's what you want and of course I had justifications for it I thought okay I'll I'll build up a bit more money and then I'll disappear but um it was only after things went terribly badly that I realized I shouldn't play like this anymore what it was they um because the challenge just kept coming so now so did you go back to Australia I went back to Australia and and when I retired within three months right but they weren't waiting for you to arrest you or no no they wanted they wanted something solid okay [Music] um I won't go into the long machinations of it all but um somebody we knew uh was getting things from a Thai Courier and he got arrested he sold us out to the police so that that The Courier would now come to us and I always have some solid evidence right he would bring things but we got away with that because that was another challenge but the police got tired of all this arrested me no drugs of course so it was a difficult case the worst kind of case is that where there's no solid evidence and in a way it's better to go to court where you've got a Smoking Gun and a dead body on the ground because at least you know where you are but where there's nothing tangible and it's conspiracies and this was a huge trial six months long what is that 119 Witnesses 6 000 pages of uh telephone intercept massive thing won't made it worse too and I think this was um would change things for me um the pressure was put on for confessions but it'd be silly to confess and you can't confess on somebody else's behalf can you that's not nice um lots of the family were arrested even my mother was taken and it went oh wow just to put pressure on uh did she know what you did oh she had an idea right okay I mean I used to have bin liners full of money I'd leave behind the fridge yeah you don't get that in the cinema do you not done not a very good day you know uh because they arrested so many people now when they arrested our wives and my business partner Michael his wife just had a baby it was we had to do a deal here I didn't want to but I was going to say I said to Michael look I know you don't like it but we'll play to it get the girls out of trouble we'll Escape that's a good challenge that way [Music] um but unfortunately um the intelligence section put an arsonist Informer in with the girls to get some information her fire was lit uh burnt down the women's prison and my wife and my business partner's wife was were killed uh that's awful and so the Informer that they put in there yeah why did they pick an arsonist for Daniel writer name was I don't know why I remember that after 40 years God so that's quite a big that was oh and and just uh to make things worse the story put about town to scare the careers into talking because they wouldn't speak was that we'd we were killing off all the witnesses and starting with our own family where does that come from um we ended up in a super max prison nightmarish electronic zoo with two inch glass and electronic doors and insane inmates held 48 death rate 27 people a year died in that little supermax going to court in Chains with a SWAT team taking it it was so so much Michael fell to pieces he was just a wreck he didn't make it uh he survived the jail but died when he got out the only way I could survive all of that was to strip away everything I you know I found myself in the supermax concrete everything's concrete the bed everything there's no everything's still just with the tape player from my lure listening to the the tapes the bug tapes the microphones in my house I could play back my life for the last six months clearly you're moving from room to room taking telephone calls she was crying about something I didn't know what I never know and David that's gone immerse yourself in the worst that they have you will not survive this otherwise trial sort of went not so good acquitted of most things but convicted enough 10 years difficult imprisonment but I the only way I could deal with it was to say did I want revenge that was more my fault I brought this about I got her in there I mean a family of a very kind to me about it considering I wouldn't be but it doesn't matter in Chains and super Mech strip it all away it is nothing everyone is a potential enemy everything it just nothing mattered win the day win the night I mean this is a place we had to fill in a book to get some toilet paper the showers were in front of them in a glass box um if you went on a visit they'd zip you up and lock you in a suit so you had no pockets there was after that and her death I felt like there was nothing that could affect me you're wrong about these things you know we're human but I got out and they were there they even visited me to say we'll be on you when you get out the police yeah we enjoyed the old days didn't you yeah I said pretending you know and just to make the point that they were there when I got out um I I'd done a whole lot of Woodwork in the prison in the last place I was at carving intricate things making these really great trick Chinese boxes with beeswax they intercepted the van that was taking it from the prison back to my house and smashed it all to pieces I put it in a box just to say don't think that we will never be here we can do what we want so I decided to leave the country I was um how old am I by then let's work it out yeah uh I started all this Mischief when I was about 18 got arrested at 22. 23 uh um 16 years 17 years either under surveillance or in bad prisons got out and I'm under surveillance again um so how old so you're number 37 about 37. so that's already you know that's a big chunk of Life there but you've lost quite a lot of it to prison or surveillance well at no point now were you like okay and I wasn't a normal person uh really when I got out because of the experience of prison I'd already stripped most of Myself Away to deal with the death of the Superman yeah and and watching people be burnt to death in the place which was frequent somebody had contact glue pulled all over him and then satellite oh God Gods came in and the other one's standing there with a Tire swinging it around to make sure to let him burn let him burn Jesus Barry's name was testicles swollen like apples but black okay he died two hours later in hospital anyway um that was regular account to deal with that I'd already strip things away so when I got a little apartment when I got out and my mother had arranged things for me when they were there when they'd leave rude messages on my answer machine when they'd be behind me everywhere I thought all right I remember this David it never ends if you want to survive go back to the way you were you know in in the super max Anything Can Happen anytime but I didn't want to live like that um I got a fresh passport and most elaborate means um I could spend a week explaining how that came into existence but I went to Thailand to pick up some money I had three days there it was just before Christmas I left at that time on purpose so that they maybe I thought maybe it's their weak point that they want to have families in their life just at Christmas I've parked my mum's car and and left the keys somewhere for her nobody knew were you not meant to leave the country no no no licenses oh I see we're just going to take a minute here to talk about a sponsor of this show which is manscaped we were sent a package to try out by manscaped but Conor one of our producers is already a fan of the brand I believe yeah absolutely I've been using manscape for a little while now and Ben as you know it's that time of year people start asking you what you want for Christmas and I would say that a great gift for a man especially one that might have everything is the manscape performance package 4.0 so what's in that so you get the lawnmower 4.0 electric trimmer you get some anti-chafe boxer shorts which I can vouch for as well as a couple of other grooming products that smell great fantastic well it sounds like a five-star review from uconnor absolutely so Connor you were talking about the performance package there's loads of other great gift ideas such as the hygiene bundle all available at manscape.com com and all gifts that men will genuinely love to receive this Christmas if you are a listener of this podcast you get 20 off and free shipping all you have to do is go to manscape.com and use the code minutes that's manscape.com m-i-n-u-t-e-s minutes um so why are we doing that the risk is it worth it I didn't want to play anymore right I wanted to uh see if I could have a something resembling like a a real life just to find some corner of the world plan was to to return to London and oh so you were leaving forever I'm leaving forever okay I see nobody knew it um I had a couple of hundred thousand in Thailand I thought um which I returned to pick up um now I suppose people say this Crooks always say this most unusual circumstances led to my arrest well they were but then again they always are aren't they or you wouldn't be telling the story or you wouldn't have been arrested but um the USDA was involved lots of people lots of players uh no real drugs are found uh they did an airport sweep and listed me up for like an ounce of something and a false passport or two the money I had just disappeared into pockets but those when I arrived there I felt so free I knew this identity was good I just like floating on air really I slipped out of my protective mode you know that when we stick to the plan and all right you don't want to leave I should have even stayed there for six months just get some sensible view of the world but I I didn't uh and as I went to the airport I could see they were all around me and I melted back into the crowd and disappeared again I thought well that serves me right for changing that attitude I'd had from back in super max and I just glaze over concentrate on the details which I needed to do because when I went to make a phone call later at the travel agency uh waiting it was so depressing being thrown into the Thai prison and I had some idea what they'd be like um people I'd known had been arrested there I knew this much it never won a case you never get out well you get out and what were they arresting you for was it the the uh the passport um what did the the the money wasn't I mean what did they leave 4 000 or something like that right and there are airports we put um I saw the guy walking in with it in a plastic bag you know whatever people throw on the floor before they go through security there was a bit of hash this usual bits of weed but what they really wanted was um this 25 grams of heroin because that would finish me off a policeman um Australian one said was that yours yeah yeah sure it was he said I didn't think so what would you be carrying around that for I mean if it was 10 kilos I might understand but but that was enough the death penalty and was it yours no no no so where where would that come from if you do they do a sweep every afternoon at five o'clock they get tons of it right I get you know nervous passengers go up and then they change their minds and they throw it in the toilet too and were they just did do you think they believed it was yours or do you think they were just going this is we need to give him this bit no no I think they were using it hoping to that would be good to hold and maybe they could get something else find out what I was up to who I was seeing because I had met um somebody who's whose uncle was a big player right so there was there was I think they were optimistic there might be more Camp come out of it but but there wasn't but what difference did it make and I wasn't really worried about um those drugs or the death penalty I wanted to die anyway frankly my first escape plans from there had this I imagine getting out to find the Privacy to kill myself right I wanted to go to the dusa Tony Hotel I knew Which floor and where to get onto the roof I'd taken photographs from there many years before um they were you simply couldn't get a moment's piece dormitories with 150 guys in them screaming all night um we can't even take a crap in peace in the Thai prison We're Not Afraid though of what killing myself well no I mean I don't know being brutalized by the guards or the inmates so well I knew enough about Thailand to to know that it was a little more comic than than bad there were very bad things happen they used to um they've beaten people a couple of people get beaten to death every day there but it's a very big prison we have to get that in proportion I only wish they wouldn't use the food trolley to take the dead bodies out because um you know they don't clean them up um and could you speak the language or were you quite it was a quite different communication uh not really uh and the few languages that uh pitch up in my travels I always found that even if you know them it's better to pretend you don't okay um because they'll talk about you behind your back you know certainly didn't live it on there was I I just couldn't see any point I'd gone to such elaborate precautions on this trip um it just shouldn't have happened and I even got away from the airport and still it happened oh all that confidence that I'll figure a way out I didn't care anymore I just had enough um and I remember seeing an old guy there if you had to go to court they put change on you and um you'd line up on the ground now this old guy I was looking at him because I don't know why a big soundtrack went past he had the presence of mind to push his head under that sand truck and oh it twisted it around popped like a watermelon being dropped on the ground oh my God guys very annoyed told the trustees to get that thing away out of sight was that nice thing called it I thought you Brave bastard you yeah you've got the guts to do that was it not quite a disturbing thing to witness no it was shocking because if you haven't seen it kind of thing up close and I happen to be looking um it was uh but that that's how I felt about it but I was saved In The End by a con man and people say a lot of bad things about economy they do yes they do and they uh you can't be trusted uh they are rottenness and they will cheat you just because they're the Scorpion that's in their nature uh but sometimes they're just what you need and this rather smooth um Bostonian American um who spoke Thai and really knew his way around and I you know I thought the somewhere in this huge prison there'd be an enclave of rich and corrupt foreigners with loads of money and there'd be luxuries it wasn't there was nobody of any importance in there you know a couple of big sacrifices had been made but um a couple of very rich policemen who were in the hospital in intensive care but other than that it was it was just um the people who reached the absolute bottom Drifters in Asia who did run after run and then got sacrificed to the machine they'd get about four jobs a big Syndicate there operating careers had run four times bang they'd shot them to the police they'd be gone oh God they will turn told the same story and it was Joe it was this guest house it was such and such identical and um and and at this point had you been sentenced to death had you received oh no no no I I was trying to avoid that yeah once I came to my senses because the the Boston con had so many wonderful schemes medical thing to get me bail and know some way of a escape with a go to court I get snatched from there I had villains come over and and scope out the court too because there was a way I thought of getting out of there from the lift that took you up to the the building uh snatched from the middle as you go down changed into a different set of clothes but they all got scared thing about um some of our most loved uh and fearless villains they're pretty good in the local manner but you throw them into a place like that where people carry machine guns and shoot at will just for the hell of it not so confident they like the upper edge of being snakes um so I couldn't convince anybody to really help and it was just as well um and two and a half years passed there in this prison it's a long time it was I sort of perked up a little bit pulled myself together started exercising um got a couple of ATM cards over hadn't my favorite god um he was in charge of the the building bought myself a room renovated um so you had you bought a room within the prison that was just for you rented that's rented right you know and is that an official thing that you're allowed to do right there are places in the world where it's official right but you had an influx of money that you could pay for special treats you could survive there on um less than 500 pounds a month and be king oh wow was this the 70s or the 80s now by the way we're into um 90 495 19 the 495 because what's reported about you is that during the 80s you were a multi-millionaire um is that accurate um now what do we call a multi-millionaires a young halfway with a million and a quarter on a glass coffee table and looks around the living room and thinks I've got to get a sofa one of these days um oh goes to the car auctions in the morning buys a big yank tank with a 427 Chevy engine in it um drives it around makes his own car parking spaces you know we're smashing the front in backing the other one pushing the other cars out of the way um oh stoned off my head most of the time uh if I wasn't stunned enough I'd take a few mandracks just to colludes icing on the cake um so I didn't take care of the money and the money didn't take care of me so I guess I'm like the reason I the reason I asked was because it must have been quite a stark change going from a very rich existence to basically somewhere where you basically couldn't pay for anything initially and it was a very poor existence but I guess from what you're saying there it's not like you felt like you were Rich at the time um I've made that contrast a few times when I had my first big arrest I couldn't as I was in a cold near lightless cell of blue stone and horse hair mattress about two inches thick and wrecking a piss I would think back to the night before when I had my important to tell in huge bed and Irish linen sheets and swimming pool out there and um and we had to kind of shake off the contrast but that rubber banding must must have been hard to take because it's you're going from basically the aspiration of almost everyone where you're talking about just buying cars outright and having a swimming pool to a piss stinking bed you know it must be it was you know it's odd thing about it was providing I could see a way out a work a way out I didn't so much mind oh okay um I really trained myself to expect my whatever world I built up and and this happened several times I've done it five times had a new identity New Life new surroundings even new people and dang they're gone and every time it got worse um and there was even Thailand was desperately important because even though it was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it um you know I was somebody that nobody minded killing um so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah there's nothing like the prospect of being executed by a machine gun which is the way they did it God is that what it would have been wow yeah you know oh they'd have three guards all with a bit of string on the trigger and they'd all pull it once so that none of them could be condemned in the Buddhist sense of sin oh they don't even actually right I see it caused the bullet that finished you off oh I see so you're in the Thai prison you've been sentenced to uh rather unpleasant death penalty um how did you start coming up with this famous plan for escaping um desperation it was the last plan that looked like it was going to work um there were probably about 20 plans considered um everything from being the prison held I've since found out it holds 22 000 people oh my God in 10 sub prisons uh there's a women's section there's a young offenders there's a special reminder a drug unit all of that um just a wild place it has everything it even had a prisoner-run shop where you could extract you could borrow money against your account and cash anyway um one of the plans involved being welded into a VW Combi van in the prisons Auto Workshop which would be picked up early Monday morning and I'd be driven out and that another one was um there were several courtroom ones and you couldn't just pay your way out no no it's just you could pay to have a mobile phone which in those days was a rare thing but they were around um you could pay for a bottle of clong uh whiskey you could pay I'm sure you could pay to get a a girl in your room if you could work out what a room was that a whole section full of ladyboys there and got a building full of them they used to open it up on Saturdays so um you could pay for anything but not to leave they couldn't cover that and they couldn't trust each other you would need 25 30 different guards paid off and and the gods of visitors I mean too many guides no that wouldn't work and they looked at it as a kind of betrayal only if I saw two escapes attempts there one group of uh straight kids and a Singaporean got out of their cell incredibly turned themselves into the sleeping God when they'd all lied to each other about what they didn't have you know the ropes and ways out because they're it was so outraged that they'd spoiled the guys jobs they beat them to death slowly tortured them over three months to death having put them in little code lockers the soy they call them drag them out in elephant chains every day and batter them senseless uh internal bleeding usually did it um look I've got a bowl of rice and a painting to poo in that was it um even the water was it was just too horrible so if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off even my Swedish friends Sten the Viking he backed out at the last minute I couldn't get people to go with me all the other plants had fallen to bits because they depended on other people I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars and I needed equipment for that and here's a really important point I guess as bad as this world is you've got to try to find good people if you ask somebody if you asked your friend yeah and and you're finished you'll manage to get a phone call and say friend it's been here um I need you to get um I don't know four hacksaw blades and cut them into the dowel rods of a of a poster and then paint it all up and send it in a huge package with this that cable ties gaffer tape but disguise all that how many people are going to do it turn around wouldn't believe it Ben called me what his neck yeah he's screwed but anyway he wouldn't believe but he wants me to do this that now people don't do it but Michael on the other hand our business partner wouldn't even let me explain he hadn't heard from me in 18 months he said David don't explain I'm sure we could get cut off tell me the important part now where do I have to be and what do I have to bring no that's a friend um and so I've always tried to do the same for the others that I've known like that um but um I did get the equipment together that I needed and everything um about escapes from a big prison is not like your hope it's going to be you know I turned it out walked around the streets and it had streets inside it um and timed it with my trusty Casio and it was so I knew roughly how long it would take to get me but the night's a different world I'm a prisoner I'm only used to noise during the day even the fan chopping around in the Cell at night it's so quiet everything I did squeaked and rattled and twisted I came across a panel that had to be a nail had to come out and that and they'll protest it and scream their wrench out of the way it took um uh seven or eight worlds uh sorry seven or eight walls to cross over I say worlds because they really were every building was a different thing and I got lost and I went past the terminal AIDS Ward that building hundreds of guys all die and I could smell it before I got there because this necrotic Rotting Flesh and I couldn't resist looking in I'm carrying this huge long ladder made out of bamboo poles and fake picture frames gaffer taped along the center [Music] um and I looked up and I saw all these little faces in the Moonlight wrapped in so much pain and despair they didn't have the energy to cry out to the guards if they'd been in any other prisoners they would have the trustees there were absolute scum of the earth had whistled little uniforms sell the drugs one day and the rest of the guys for it the next all of that um and it was only by um well I only got to the outer wall by Dawn and if somebody had been with me I wouldn't have made it either you wouldn't have no imagine I've taken all night to get there and at each point where this something was unexpected I've had to dream up something and I get a little basic toolkit and I sometimes I'd have to sacrifice part of my ladder to make a hook to pull down barbed wire and the technique for using the thing was awkward you had to prop it walk up drop down the other side so you're twisting over the walls like that manual is entirely barbed wire so I had to go underneath it covered in mud the the last one was really too high and there was a Mars bar Creek the the moat that ran around I did you know if I was with somebody else we'd be arguing wouldn't we oh Spa Creek oh it was full of turds bombing around it was caught out of the sewer yeah you did ask um illustrative okay we're just gonna take a quick break from the show to talk about a sponsor of this episode better help better help is an online Counseling Service which connects people to therapists and counselors I'm joined by one of our producers bryony is counseling something you've had experience with do you know what it's interesting because when I was growing up the same kind of challenges in life would happen but people wouldn't necessarily go to therapy or talk about therapy and I feel like since uh maybe my late teens early 20s people are starting to go to therapy and talking about it and I have definitely used it in my life and it's been massively beneficial same and do you because I think one of the things that people often mistake they think it's just for big things yeah but what's the other experience of that thing I think life always throws you know small challenges and large challenges and sometimes the big things need talking about but actually you know starting a new school or starting a new job can rile up that same level of anxiety and it's just really helpful to be able to talk to someone about it who is completely impartial not involved in your life and just kind of a safe space I guess to just say whatever you want to say you completely agree as the world's largest therapy service better help as much 3 million people with professionally licensed and vetted therapists available 100 online plus it's affordable just fill out a brief questionnaire to match with a therapist if things aren't clicking you can easily switch to a new therapist anytime it couldn't be simpler no waiting rooms no traffic no endless searching for the right therapist learn more and save 10 of your first month at betterhelp.com minutes with that's betterhelp help help.com minutes with um now there was one way of oh Beyond marsburg create this a foot and a half of land before this huge huge wall you've got to get a ladder that's too heavy to carry too imbalanced to do anything with but you've got a bit of rope how do you get it to the other side of Mars bar which has all got tangled barb wire in that so it'll catch get it in place and up against the wall when you've got no ground to to walk on now there is a way and uh I guess people have to listen to me describe it either to you or in my book okay fine but too long to tell here sure but um I could see the glow of dawn as I got to the top which had electricity running through it too just to make it the top of the wall dead yeah yeah wow but um my friend who um was in there a bit of a technician is to belong to the anarchist Society in in Britain how would you belong to a society that has rules when you anyway putting that aside he did tell me that it would only be 240 volts but to be careful um and just managed to get over that and because the original plan was to um oh there was an outer moat beyond that of 20 meters I had my clothes ready to go into a plastic bag swim the moat but just as well I didn't um because all it turned out all the guards houses were over the other side of that moat this would not be a place to go but I cleaned myself up threw some clothes on and I one of the jobs that I didn't do but I was supposed to be doing was working in the Umbrella Factory so I paid a local boy to do it um I've got a pop-up umbrella from there I thought you know you really get a perspective about I want to just simple discrimination but being an outsider a foreigner the way sometimes people feel picked upon you know we were called the white trash and we were in in Chains and everything so I knew I had to cover my face in the popular did it and I managed to get to a place where a passport was hidden and to the airport and still had a working ATM card to get me out of the country into Singapore so did you end up with the umbrella did you walk out the front gate yeah I did I had some long trousers on now in their prisoners are not allowed to wear them so I had some khaki pants I thought they might as I walked around the the narrow path to the front gate it's still mote but a little Bridge I thought another figure it's a guard arriving late and sneaking in and I did I felt like Ripley an alien uh looking at thinking lucky lucky this is where it all ends doesn't it and I'm thinking that every moment and looking up and there was just enough light rain to justify the umbrella yeah I would learn later that was actually the not a rain from the gods but the spittle of their laughter because they had worse things in mind for me later on I mean it's so it's you know how many people are you aware how many people had escaped from that prison up to that point was it some every year or was it very infrequent none um the ties sometimes ran away when they were doing the gardens in Chains outside but Escape From Within um I'd known of in 20 years people could recall two attempts no foreigners um and they didn't trust the foreigners that's why they put you on the third floor right quite rightly yes and and how long had it taken you from like the beginning of the uh I started cutting at um 11 45 I paid a lot to get a light switch in there normally the lights are on all the time um okay and I said to my favorite guard oh yeah Ponting or whatever his name was I can't sleep with that thing I'll put a light switch in um um now they didn't say it as corruption or bribe taking they thought I'm doing this nice guy a favor and I'll be lucky because of it that's a very big thing over there you know if I get caught I'm unlucky then so they can batter me to death I mean sure it's kind of self-justifies any action that a human being might take so he started cutting around eight for 11 45 11 45 okay it's quite close through one bar by two in the morning oh God stencia listen we'll go on the next note I looked around and Kevin the American from Hawaii I didn't even know this was happening uh Mirage the Indian I know he's going to talk the next morning he was kakaria LA pantaloni right in the cell never mind holding out and not saying anything he would have it would have been finished I never would have made it and I guess I could have seen the missing bars potentially but I learned later on I actually caught up with somebody who was in there Scottish guy um he was there for selling ecstasy to the Two well-off Sons and Daughters of wealthy policemen anyway um he remembers they the guards couldn't figure that I'd left oh um he said David they ran around the the prison calling out your name it was Daniel Westlake while I was there Daniel Daniel they okay that somebody drew their attention to the cut bar in there yeah my Scottish friend said they the gods wanted they thought that okay he's got out he's angry about something uh Daniel but he's not actually he'll never get out he couldn't get it they never found the the ladder down the front wall until much much later so for um uh uh only one of them said oh we better check the airport they sent a couple of guys down there um just a little bit late and you were gone by then only just and remember man you've got a passport from a Chinese connection that you barely know but kind of like the cut of his jib but are you gonna put your life on the line on that and at every moment you're handing it over you know like the look of it yeah they don't like the look of it they're typing it up and you're thinking they got onto the computer have they done that bit uh have they entered my arrival was this I knew it was freshly stolen or sold off was only a few weeks old uh I mean not new was had only gone missing a few weeks earlier so it was still good but very nerve-wracking and I didn't have a photo I had to use my old um uh radio operators license that had a photograph in it to get reproduced into this thing so it was a bit grainy um and even on the plane it was delay and takeoff oh God and a mumbling Captain oh sorry um we we have a thing with one passenger I just asked what thing exactly soon enough thwomp doors to manual oh but I've got an hour you know looking at this passport I don't like it get to Singapore but I make it through so you got to Singapore yeah but you did end up going back to prison not a Thai prison but a different prison he's suggesting uh I did something wrong well I'm hoping you're going to tell me um no well okay uh I didn't stay in Singapore long because um I sat there in the hotel room unable to digest food not prepared by my own cook sure I in the hotel room in Singapore I realized you could work out who had left that day if they'd flown my air by simply going to the airport and children you work it out yourselves at home you check everybody who's left separate the foreigners hmm go a step further let's keep the Canadian and American the British the Australian New Zealand all the English-speaking passport Society um just to you know reduce the numbers take those names check with the embassies any of these names belong to lost or stolen passports that have been reported yeah five of them because that's Bangkok you know not the only Mischief maker there but nonetheless um they probably knew I could be who was I Charles McClintock hmm sorry Charles I had to borrow your passport but it was an essential cause but you're not wanted anymore of course are you no but I did get an unwelcome knock at the door some years ago uh by the police who um would it be to go excuse me Westminster Court known for the terrorist cases extradition or parking fights wow I'd lift the car anywhere lately so it was going to be one of the other two and it was extradition to Thailand I fought that case for two years and um it was difficult um but managed to effectively win in the end so the ties have dropped that one and I can't be taken back there I'm not wanted anywhere um I can nobody can do what they want but um I I'm not I haven't got anything pending I'm not in business I'm a bit cautious I even got sent something in the the mail a few years ago and I thought it was some gift from some halfway ambitious wombat in in Pakistan sending me a bit of dope thinking oh yeah there's a gift you might like that connection made no I mean people had my address all around the world ever since Danny Dyer um it turned out to be more complicated than that but um very dangerous for me to walk into a courtroom so I don't even imagine you're me and knock at the door oh here's something for you Ben you don't like the look of it you refuse it you're in court no matter why did you refuse that was it your name no you was up The Jig was up proof ladies and gentlemen oh you accept it ah you accepted it proof ladies and gentlemen wife saying to me Jeanette and whom I met in Pakistan years ago and she was there to fish out her husband on a two-ton hash deal he didn't make it anyway um she said throw the thing away I'm thinking in court again ladies and gentlemen he threw the stuff away I can't win so very cautious about all that kind of stuff um fair enough but I take it you won't be going for a holiday to Thailand anytime soon I didn't think so okay so how many do you know off the top of your head of your life how many years of your life have you spent in prison ultimately I did add it up once I'm 66 now and I suppose I've spent um but 22 years the thing that occurs to me and I met you before and I thought the same thing is like you obviously extremely intelligent extremely resourceful it can't be well but well anyway but do you regret the choices you made in terms of do you see those 22 years in prison as something you had no control over it's just the way the dice rolled or do you see them as a mistake on your part um worse than a mistake mistake suggest you didn't know uh where you were going wrong I was taking those steps into uh of a precipice that I'd defied there is no gravity I said I said I will work out something before I hit the ground um when I was It was kind of in stages when I was young it was just arrogance and and showing off and later on when everything was destroyed it was kind of I'd scraped away all of my life and would just go on um then in the third stage it was escaping away from places rebuilding up and being weakened every time it was taken away again um and do I regret it yeah I'm sure I um no you know some people say oh yeah but David just smuggled everything on Earth you scumbag you you know um think of the lives you've destroyed and the people you've heard ah and I go to start to explain that it's not quite black and white uh I mean I've had drug habits myself that I've carelessly allowed um but I thought what's the point anything I say we just sound like self-justification so well don't listen to me then you know but things that have happened that have taught me a lot it's interesting you say that because one of a lot of the comments on our well on the first video we did a lot of the comments where people saying someone needs to make a movie about this guy but a lot of the other comments were people saying he's so charismatic and likable but he must be a really dangerous person to have been involved with all these worlds for so long and um we've interviewed a couple of drug smugglers and I would say they're the ones that I've met have been the ones that probably are more someone you'd see is traditionally quite an obviously dangerous person you come across as very Charming charismatic roguish where do you see yourself on that scale do you see yourself as someone who was dangerous or do you see yourself as someone who's just moved from area to area as it occurred um kind of like this a dangerous I suppose what most people see that and you know if somebody was a problem for me would I find the best option to have them killed or not but really there always was a kind of Vestige of that's a failure if you can't think of anything better than to have them killed then then then what are you doing there's a million clever ways of solving your problems and that besides which there's always going to be people you can't kill everybody um not only that who killed the killers that you've got to do the killing you know you know they always say that about the quiet ones and all of that but it was the people who bothered to put up a smoke screen um they're establishing a um later Alibi a courtroom personality but I met him he didn't seem bothered by all of that why would he have him killed and those are the ones that um seem to be more dangerous and if I was such a dangerous person like that I certainly been absolute fool to break from that mold and say otherwise wouldn't it very true David it's great to see you again thank you so much for coming in always a pleasure yeah and I've Got a Feeling we'll be seeing you again at some point as well it's possible it does may cross thank you I'll be like oh my God they're in my head they they know they know that was a song and so they put that song on the radio and it's all everything revolves around me or you know and this happened well sometimes happens today you know I'm I'm thinking of someone in my head someone under there like on the street	different it was something a very strong lesson I'd have to be thoughtful about that um there could be times where things didn't work out not necessarily that my safety was at risk I didn't see it that way but I knew that there were Ruthless People right okay yeah so you got an insight into a mindset that had been a bit below the surface it was there I just chose not to see it but um I then went on to you know refine everything and Vary everything and then did you after that first time did you were you still working sort of for them or did you immediately well when you wake up on your own when things um I picked up and there was enough money around out of uh out of strategy rather than just being a nice guy I gave my partners a kind of thank you bonus from the next thing that I did but I did that all myself right so it was almost like a yeah separation and I wanted to go back to the my hippie friends anyway they were a little less it wasn't that they were scary but but that didn't last because they were maybe friends might be all right but they will certainly careless and stupid but from from that point onwards after that initial Journey was that you then into the world of smuggling I thought this won't last forever you only need one	5	4	7	different it was something a very strong lesson I'd have to be thoughtful about that um there could be times where things didn't work out not necessarily that my safety was at risk I didn't see it that way but I knew that there were Ruthless People right okay yeah so you got an insight into a mindset that had been a bit below the surface it was there I just chose not to see it but um I then went on to you know refine everything and Vary everything and then did you after that first time did you were you still working sort of for them or did you immediately well when you wake up on your own when things um I picked up and there was enough money around out of uh out of strategy rather than just being a nice guy I gave my partners a kind of thank you bonus from the next thing that I did but I did that all myself right so it was almost like a yeah separation and I wanted to go back to the my hippie friends anyway they were a little less it wasn't that they were scary but but that didn't last because they were maybe friends might be all right but they will certainly careless and stupid but from from that point onwards after that initial Journey was that you then into the world of smuggling I thought this won't last forever you only need one	did you after that first time did you were you still working sort of for them or did you immediately	3,4,-2	2,-1,5	3	4	-2	2	-1	5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyZyHHexx7s	4,101	oyZyHHexx7s	2022-12-07 00:00:00	even though I was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off I couldn't get people to go with me I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars [Music] it's great to have you back David obviously we've met before but for anyone who doesn't know who you are for new listeners or new viewers could you give us a brief introduction to what you are famous for well I suppose uh most well known for uh having escaped to prison in Thailand in Bangkok uh the biggest one they have there clong Prim it uh wasn't something I did frivolously I was going to be executed within a couple of weeks so it seemed like a good time to leave okay now um we're going to get into that in a bit more detail but one thing that I remember about you from last time is you're the most incredible talker and we took away the inter the initial interview we've done with you and ended up having to make it into two long episodes because you have a lot of different very colorful uh experiences so do forgive me if I Jimmy us through oh no I can understand that I mean the only place I never talk is in the police station I always like some of my uh work colleagues took um what was it one slap to get them talking but five to shut them up oh okay so let's go right back to the beginning um you were born in the UK and then I believe you emigrated to Australia well um it was all a family thing yes I was born in basewater in London I spent the first few years of my life then uh there but my parents broke up divorced and I went with my mother to Australia with my older sister so I don't have any really very early memories of London apart from some old eight millimeter movie footage of me learning to walk in Hyde Park my dad was waving a five pound note in front of my face and I was making every effort to grab it I continued that behavior for many many years afterwards returned to Australia um finished some schooling um got really contrasting jobs I worked in an adult Agency for a while um but also before that I was got a job in a cinema now it was the and under literally an underground place but it was there that I got introduced to a bunch of crooks um some of the girls there had boyfriends that I used to run down with um strange boxes or bits of money or fur coats and then wink at me bolt out the back door pursued by often policemen undercover ones of course whom we'd misdirect somewhere but that Circle they were um safe crackers and they really didn't trust Outsiders and didn't much like the sound of me but because of I demonstrated a couple of things by being look everybody was really very anti-authority then I I don't mean hostile but for people now they they wouldn't have experienced that in the uh late 60s 70s we were so snotty and arrogant we really thought we were going to change the world and that um the laws were all nothing and the way to change them was to break them well that was the kind of vanity we had so um when I got to know the safe crackers uh better there was something really interesting I mean I didn't like the idea you know stealing things seemed a bit tacky but on the other hand they kind of all needed the money from the from their backgrounds and everything but that wasn't so much the the interest it was the technicalities of getting into these things okay um they used to drill through the top um having anchored it with the drill with clamps and and put a kind of little lens inside a cystoscope used in medicine and watch the the wheels turning around this is the old kind of old-fashioned Hollywood style it was yeah and um behind the safe were three discs and you had to line them up and they'd once they got in they'd take the door with them so that the opposition the safe makers wouldn't know how they'd got in and it was a a constant battle between the manufacturers and them because they've come across new safes which had Special Metals in it that was mixed like a a crunchy nut bar very hard metals very soft ones so the drill bit would slip on them snap and you got a sense that this was almost like a game where um they would try something then try to beat them and they were very loyal to each other um they they never spoke out of school as it were um when I got involved with them I'd only have to if I had trouble I don't have to make one phone call and people would appear out of nowhere and I thought yeah this this is kind of better than the treacherous boys school that I I grew up in and how old were you at this point um 19 years old 19. so were you thinking you were making a conscious decision to move into illegal activities or at that point in time and at that point in the world did it feel like more of a kind of a bit of roguish fun would you say I was drawn to it anyway because it was interesting and um I didn't really have a lot of fear I think sometimes what we do or don't do is depending on how scary it seems yeah agreed um I was born with a low resting heart rate as they say you know if it's below 70 you're a risk taker I don't know why that is when the safe crackers retired they put some of their money into growing little crops of weed and so on but profit margin is is only through importing because like the price difference is cheap in the source countries expensive where it sells so because they couldn't do it they were almost throwing it down like a challenge like we don't know anybody who can do this and I thought well I traveled a lot um I didn't think it was going to be impossible um I thought the odds were in my phone and I looked it up I went to the library and sort of researched it a bit and where were you thinking which country Well they um they were very keen to get some um hashish from India or Nepal or somewhere okay I could see um it's bulky and there's packing problems so um they funded me and off I sailed now the operation my first operation was so deplorably bad I'm barely 20 years old I my cunning plan which involved a big piece of exported Machinery which had weights in it so the weights would come out the cash would go in it would weigh the same being returned and it was a piece of Television equipment or something that went South immediately when I didn't realize that I would have to pay a huge deposit in duty to even bring it in as a demo machine so forget that I ended up in short meeting a guy in a money exchange section of a bank I was there because I ran out and I had to send asking for more from the boys and I met him and he wasn't involved in any of this but he soon became that just he managed to get me six kilos of hash I took the 1952 ancient Grundig radio from his parents house the Shelf there guttered the thing like a fish wrapped it up and he had to get cling film in those days think of this before you travel arriving with a suitcase full of cling film doesn't look good I suppose but uh wedged it in there and then just flew back to Sydney now you can imagine what happened well just before we get on to what happened you know one thing that strikes me is what year was would this have been this was uh 77 77 so it's amazing think that back then if someone was going to India for the first time now they could go on Google Maps they could research it or they could find out who they could find phone numbers contacts they could be put in contact with people before they've even set off whereas you must have at that age at that time been going in slightly blind you know touching down in a foreign country that you didn't know well no contacts was that not quite daunting well what was more um troubling with um how everything would fail and then I'd have to um you know come up with another plan what context somebody I knew um um there were no bank robber who joined the hare krishnas and fled to India right and I had his name and and the ashram in Delhi where where he was was supposed to have been uh I didn't really catch up with him on that trip but okay sure so so then you get back to Australia with your radio that is now full to the brim with and I get stopped you you did get stopped okay I could stop because uh I'm I'm on a British passport um and it's the only trip I've ever done and I'm that age I'd stop me oh fatherly type was at the Customs desk now the the systems were different in those days um it was Sydney too which is very and certainly was very relaxed back then right he opened the suitcase uh there was nothing in there except a pair of socks there's a towel wrapping up this massive radio which he lifted up so it was buckled at the sides little red packets poking out oh it smelled like a hedgehog for a patchouliers okay not much of a disguise um he let me go he uh put it back looked around to make sure that none of his workmates were watching him being so soft um and then turned to me and said you're going back there you're going to do this again [Music] all right you can take your we'll call it a radio shall we get out of here what he thought I realized later was that he didn't want the whole grammar of the day arresting me filling out papers and it would have been a a long time plus I guess being a dad he thought if I he's obviously an idiot you're right if I send him into Gladiator Academy or it wasn't really like that in those days but certainly contact center um the prison what am I doing um well I guess uh he was hopeful you know I whilst out of there must have smuggling me but I experienced then what um I got years later which was kind of a real Downer after you know having got nowhere with The Hare krishnas and and cultivated the shoeshine boys and had my money stolen at Amex uh by some Scallywags in Delhi all sorts of Little Adventures over there in India and nonetheless made it it's kind of like that's all there is to it I I didn't really want to give it to anyone um sort of felt like you didn't have a big moment of no a bit of money that came earlier that's handy right uh I paid back what I owed and settled up for for the next thing so but once that was started when you sorry I interrupted you go oh I was just going to say it to finish it even though they'd funded me the guys were very surprised to see me back but at all at all oh you made it oh because some of them say oh you'll just run away with it uh even if that's what he's doing who knows what he's doing you know and then I could see sitting around you can imagine there's like a table full of well like three guys and then a kind of Darkness shrouded over that room I thought uh it's not valuable enough to kill me you know what what is this mood why did you bring that well that's what you've been talking about yeah you could have loaded that with cane or smack or something you guys we say nothing but terrible things about a class or heavy drugs that don't want to know about it right and I could read then that wait a minute there we're all might be guys together and having fun getting into the safe and whatnot but there was a kind of different it was something a very strong lesson I'd have to be thoughtful about that um there could be times where things didn't work out not necessarily that my safety was at risk I didn't see it that way but I knew that there were Ruthless People right okay yeah so you got an insight into a mindset that had been a bit below the surface it was there I just chose not to see it but um I then went on to you know refine everything and Vary everything and then did you after that first time did you were you still working sort of for them or did you immediately well when you wake up on your own when things um I picked up and there was enough money around out of uh out of strategy rather than just being a nice guy I gave my partners a kind of thank you bonus from the next thing that I did but I did that all myself right so it was almost like a yeah separation and I wanted to go back to the my hippie friends anyway they were a little less it wasn't that they were scary but but that didn't last because they were maybe friends might be all right but they will certainly careless and stupid but from from that point onwards after that initial Journey was that you then into the world of smuggling I thought this won't last forever you only need one setback and that changes it I probably made quite a lot of money and I could have got out but and I should have gotta you know I have couriers a leak from one of the the couriers brought the police to me and here was the problem with it it was at first I scattered now I was married to my first wife then clearly Italian girl her dad had restaurants I grabbed her I had a secret drawer with extra passports in it some money ended up four plane Journeys later in um off the Bahamas had the skipper of a day rent yacht and take me out to an island and nobody had ever been on before it was empty sat there on a towel I thought hmm the level of surveillance I had means it's quite a big operation they're funded and I checked with a lawyer before the bigger the money they spent the more determined they'll be stay away or go back I mean I don't know why would anybody do this uh well I wasn't broke um I didn't have to there was no pressure on me the more I went through the problems the more attractive the whole thing is uh she didn't like it much well again do you think because it was a puzzle to be solved because um arrogance really we've gone from basically someone who was kind of mildly interested in making a group of people meeting a group of um safe hackers to someone who pulled off their first thing and then we've jumped to someone who has people working for them and and now is no longer taking the risk themselves now the police are on to you and you're on this desert island well small island and you're thinking about going back into it was this like a turning point in your life in terms of going you know because the other option I suppose was to go straight but were you just more it was that just not an option for you I'd gone to my lawyer Ralph he said look this is what I picked up because I my travel agent had tipped me to a couple of detectives that come in he traveled again while I was in on the phone okay uh actually they're all innocent really yeah you know and and gave him a long list of names um they wanted travel details for and a telephone number which I traced uh to um a private office building which had been rented by state and federal police they were so distrusting of their own they didn't want to even run this thing from um regular police headquarters my lawyer said well what you sure it's you said Ralph look at the list of names there's 30 there I'm 26 of them passports are a lot easier to get back then than there now so you had 26 aliases that you were traveling on yeah right okay um and I described where they were he said David they are funded well they're not bear this in mind but although I what they won't get me with anything they're funded you think they're going to walk away after a year and say oh sorry boss you spend a million dollars and uh nothing doing they don't work like that but this is how stubborn I was I thought because he said the only thing you can do is disappear for at least a couple of years and then you can come back if that's what you want and of course I had justifications for it I thought okay I'll I'll build up a bit more money and then I'll disappear but um it was only after things went terribly badly that I realized I shouldn't play like this anymore what it was they um because the challenge just kept coming so now so did you go back to Australia I went back to Australia and and when I retired within three months right but they weren't waiting for you to arrest you or no no they wanted they wanted something solid okay [Music] um I won't go into the long machinations of it all but um somebody we knew uh was getting things from a Thai Courier and he got arrested he sold us out to the police so that that The Courier would now come to us and I always have some solid evidence right he would bring things but we got away with that because that was another challenge but the police got tired of all this arrested me no drugs of course so it was a difficult case the worst kind of case is that where there's no solid evidence and in a way it's better to go to court where you've got a Smoking Gun and a dead body on the ground because at least you know where you are but where there's nothing tangible and it's conspiracies and this was a huge trial six months long what is that 119 Witnesses 6 000 pages of uh telephone intercept massive thing won't made it worse too and I think this was um would change things for me um the pressure was put on for confessions but it'd be silly to confess and you can't confess on somebody else's behalf can you that's not nice um lots of the family were arrested even my mother was taken and it went oh wow just to put pressure on uh did she know what you did oh she had an idea right okay I mean I used to have bin liners full of money I'd leave behind the fridge yeah you don't get that in the cinema do you not done not a very good day you know uh because they arrested so many people now when they arrested our wives and my business partner Michael his wife just had a baby it was we had to do a deal here I didn't want to but I was going to say I said to Michael look I know you don't like it but we'll play to it get the girls out of trouble we'll Escape that's a good challenge that way [Music] um but unfortunately um the intelligence section put an arsonist Informer in with the girls to get some information her fire was lit uh burnt down the women's prison and my wife and my business partner's wife was were killed uh that's awful and so the Informer that they put in there yeah why did they pick an arsonist for Daniel writer name was I don't know why I remember that after 40 years God so that's quite a big that was oh and and just uh to make things worse the story put about town to scare the careers into talking because they wouldn't speak was that we'd we were killing off all the witnesses and starting with our own family where does that come from um we ended up in a super max prison nightmarish electronic zoo with two inch glass and electronic doors and insane inmates held 48 death rate 27 people a year died in that little supermax going to court in Chains with a SWAT team taking it it was so so much Michael fell to pieces he was just a wreck he didn't make it uh he survived the jail but died when he got out the only way I could survive all of that was to strip away everything I you know I found myself in the supermax concrete everything's concrete the bed everything there's no everything's still just with the tape player from my lure listening to the the tapes the bug tapes the microphones in my house I could play back my life for the last six months clearly you're moving from room to room taking telephone calls she was crying about something I didn't know what I never know and David that's gone immerse yourself in the worst that they have you will not survive this otherwise trial sort of went not so good acquitted of most things but convicted enough 10 years difficult imprisonment but I the only way I could deal with it was to say did I want revenge that was more my fault I brought this about I got her in there I mean a family of a very kind to me about it considering I wouldn't be but it doesn't matter in Chains and super Mech strip it all away it is nothing everyone is a potential enemy everything it just nothing mattered win the day win the night I mean this is a place we had to fill in a book to get some toilet paper the showers were in front of them in a glass box um if you went on a visit they'd zip you up and lock you in a suit so you had no pockets there was after that and her death I felt like there was nothing that could affect me you're wrong about these things you know we're human but I got out and they were there they even visited me to say we'll be on you when you get out the police yeah we enjoyed the old days didn't you yeah I said pretending you know and just to make the point that they were there when I got out um I I'd done a whole lot of Woodwork in the prison in the last place I was at carving intricate things making these really great trick Chinese boxes with beeswax they intercepted the van that was taking it from the prison back to my house and smashed it all to pieces I put it in a box just to say don't think that we will never be here we can do what we want so I decided to leave the country I was um how old am I by then let's work it out yeah uh I started all this Mischief when I was about 18 got arrested at 22. 23 uh um 16 years 17 years either under surveillance or in bad prisons got out and I'm under surveillance again um so how old so you're number 37 about 37. so that's already you know that's a big chunk of Life there but you've lost quite a lot of it to prison or surveillance well at no point now were you like okay and I wasn't a normal person uh really when I got out because of the experience of prison I'd already stripped most of Myself Away to deal with the death of the Superman yeah and and watching people be burnt to death in the place which was frequent somebody had contact glue pulled all over him and then satellite oh God Gods came in and the other one's standing there with a Tire swinging it around to make sure to let him burn let him burn Jesus Barry's name was testicles swollen like apples but black okay he died two hours later in hospital anyway um that was regular account to deal with that I'd already strip things away so when I got a little apartment when I got out and my mother had arranged things for me when they were there when they'd leave rude messages on my answer machine when they'd be behind me everywhere I thought all right I remember this David it never ends if you want to survive go back to the way you were you know in in the super max Anything Can Happen anytime but I didn't want to live like that um I got a fresh passport and most elaborate means um I could spend a week explaining how that came into existence but I went to Thailand to pick up some money I had three days there it was just before Christmas I left at that time on purpose so that they maybe I thought maybe it's their weak point that they want to have families in their life just at Christmas I've parked my mum's car and and left the keys somewhere for her nobody knew were you not meant to leave the country no no no licenses oh I see we're just going to take a minute here to talk about a sponsor of this show which is manscaped we were sent a package to try out by manscaped but Conor one of our producers is already a fan of the brand I believe yeah absolutely I've been using manscape for a little while now and Ben as you know it's that time of year people start asking you what you want for Christmas and I would say that a great gift for a man especially one that might have everything is the manscape performance package 4.0 so what's in that so you get the lawnmower 4.0 electric trimmer you get some anti-chafe boxer shorts which I can vouch for as well as a couple of other grooming products that smell great fantastic well it sounds like a five-star review from uconnor absolutely so Connor you were talking about the performance package there's loads of other great gift ideas such as the hygiene bundle all available at manscape.com com and all gifts that men will genuinely love to receive this Christmas if you are a listener of this podcast you get 20 off and free shipping all you have to do is go to manscape.com and use the code minutes that's manscape.com m-i-n-u-t-e-s minutes um so why are we doing that the risk is it worth it I didn't want to play anymore right I wanted to uh see if I could have a something resembling like a a real life just to find some corner of the world plan was to to return to London and oh so you were leaving forever I'm leaving forever okay I see nobody knew it um I had a couple of hundred thousand in Thailand I thought um which I returned to pick up um now I suppose people say this Crooks always say this most unusual circumstances led to my arrest well they were but then again they always are aren't they or you wouldn't be telling the story or you wouldn't have been arrested but um the USDA was involved lots of people lots of players uh no real drugs are found uh they did an airport sweep and listed me up for like an ounce of something and a false passport or two the money I had just disappeared into pockets but those when I arrived there I felt so free I knew this identity was good I just like floating on air really I slipped out of my protective mode you know that when we stick to the plan and all right you don't want to leave I should have even stayed there for six months just get some sensible view of the world but I I didn't uh and as I went to the airport I could see they were all around me and I melted back into the crowd and disappeared again I thought well that serves me right for changing that attitude I'd had from back in super max and I just glaze over concentrate on the details which I needed to do because when I went to make a phone call later at the travel agency uh waiting it was so depressing being thrown into the Thai prison and I had some idea what they'd be like um people I'd known had been arrested there I knew this much it never won a case you never get out well you get out and what were they arresting you for was it the the uh the passport um what did the the the money wasn't I mean what did they leave 4 000 or something like that right and there are airports we put um I saw the guy walking in with it in a plastic bag you know whatever people throw on the floor before they go through security there was a bit of hash this usual bits of weed but what they really wanted was um this 25 grams of heroin because that would finish me off a policeman um Australian one said was that yours yeah yeah sure it was he said I didn't think so what would you be carrying around that for I mean if it was 10 kilos I might understand but but that was enough the death penalty and was it yours no no no so where where would that come from if you do they do a sweep every afternoon at five o'clock they get tons of it right I get you know nervous passengers go up and then they change their minds and they throw it in the toilet too and were they just did do you think they believed it was yours or do you think they were just going this is we need to give him this bit no no I think they were using it hoping to that would be good to hold and maybe they could get something else find out what I was up to who I was seeing because I had met um somebody who's whose uncle was a big player right so there was there was I think they were optimistic there might be more Camp come out of it but but there wasn't but what difference did it make and I wasn't really worried about um those drugs or the death penalty I wanted to die anyway frankly my first escape plans from there had this I imagine getting out to find the Privacy to kill myself right I wanted to go to the dusa Tony Hotel I knew Which floor and where to get onto the roof I'd taken photographs from there many years before um they were you simply couldn't get a moment's piece dormitories with 150 guys in them screaming all night um we can't even take a crap in peace in the Thai prison We're Not Afraid though of what killing myself well no I mean I don't know being brutalized by the guards or the inmates so well I knew enough about Thailand to to know that it was a little more comic than than bad there were very bad things happen they used to um they've beaten people a couple of people get beaten to death every day there but it's a very big prison we have to get that in proportion I only wish they wouldn't use the food trolley to take the dead bodies out because um you know they don't clean them up um and could you speak the language or were you quite it was a quite different communication uh not really uh and the few languages that uh pitch up in my travels I always found that even if you know them it's better to pretend you don't okay um because they'll talk about you behind your back you know certainly didn't live it on there was I I just couldn't see any point I'd gone to such elaborate precautions on this trip um it just shouldn't have happened and I even got away from the airport and still it happened oh all that confidence that I'll figure a way out I didn't care anymore I just had enough um and I remember seeing an old guy there if you had to go to court they put change on you and um you'd line up on the ground now this old guy I was looking at him because I don't know why a big soundtrack went past he had the presence of mind to push his head under that sand truck and oh it twisted it around popped like a watermelon being dropped on the ground oh my God guys very annoyed told the trustees to get that thing away out of sight was that nice thing called it I thought you Brave bastard you yeah you've got the guts to do that was it not quite a disturbing thing to witness no it was shocking because if you haven't seen it kind of thing up close and I happen to be looking um it was uh but that that's how I felt about it but I was saved In The End by a con man and people say a lot of bad things about economy they do yes they do and they uh you can't be trusted uh they are rottenness and they will cheat you just because they're the Scorpion that's in their nature uh but sometimes they're just what you need and this rather smooth um Bostonian American um who spoke Thai and really knew his way around and I you know I thought the somewhere in this huge prison there'd be an enclave of rich and corrupt foreigners with loads of money and there'd be luxuries it wasn't there was nobody of any importance in there you know a couple of big sacrifices had been made but um a couple of very rich policemen who were in the hospital in intensive care but other than that it was it was just um the people who reached the absolute bottom Drifters in Asia who did run after run and then got sacrificed to the machine they'd get about four jobs a big Syndicate there operating careers had run four times bang they'd shot them to the police they'd be gone oh God they will turn told the same story and it was Joe it was this guest house it was such and such identical and um and and at this point had you been sentenced to death had you received oh no no no I I was trying to avoid that yeah once I came to my senses because the the Boston con had so many wonderful schemes medical thing to get me bail and know some way of a escape with a go to court I get snatched from there I had villains come over and and scope out the court too because there was a way I thought of getting out of there from the lift that took you up to the the building uh snatched from the middle as you go down changed into a different set of clothes but they all got scared thing about um some of our most loved uh and fearless villains they're pretty good in the local manner but you throw them into a place like that where people carry machine guns and shoot at will just for the hell of it not so confident they like the upper edge of being snakes um so I couldn't convince anybody to really help and it was just as well um and two and a half years passed there in this prison it's a long time it was I sort of perked up a little bit pulled myself together started exercising um got a couple of ATM cards over hadn't my favorite god um he was in charge of the the building bought myself a room renovated um so you had you bought a room within the prison that was just for you rented that's rented right you know and is that an official thing that you're allowed to do right there are places in the world where it's official right but you had an influx of money that you could pay for special treats you could survive there on um less than 500 pounds a month and be king oh wow was this the 70s or the 80s now by the way we're into um 90 495 19 the 495 because what's reported about you is that during the 80s you were a multi-millionaire um is that accurate um now what do we call a multi-millionaires a young halfway with a million and a quarter on a glass coffee table and looks around the living room and thinks I've got to get a sofa one of these days um oh goes to the car auctions in the morning buys a big yank tank with a 427 Chevy engine in it um drives it around makes his own car parking spaces you know we're smashing the front in backing the other one pushing the other cars out of the way um oh stoned off my head most of the time uh if I wasn't stunned enough I'd take a few mandracks just to colludes icing on the cake um so I didn't take care of the money and the money didn't take care of me so I guess I'm like the reason I the reason I asked was because it must have been quite a stark change going from a very rich existence to basically somewhere where you basically couldn't pay for anything initially and it was a very poor existence but I guess from what you're saying there it's not like you felt like you were Rich at the time um I've made that contrast a few times when I had my first big arrest I couldn't as I was in a cold near lightless cell of blue stone and horse hair mattress about two inches thick and wrecking a piss I would think back to the night before when I had my important to tell in huge bed and Irish linen sheets and swimming pool out there and um and we had to kind of shake off the contrast but that rubber banding must must have been hard to take because it's you're going from basically the aspiration of almost everyone where you're talking about just buying cars outright and having a swimming pool to a piss stinking bed you know it must be it was you know it's odd thing about it was providing I could see a way out a work a way out I didn't so much mind oh okay um I really trained myself to expect my whatever world I built up and and this happened several times I've done it five times had a new identity New Life new surroundings even new people and dang they're gone and every time it got worse um and there was even Thailand was desperately important because even though it was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it um you know I was somebody that nobody minded killing um so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah there's nothing like the prospect of being executed by a machine gun which is the way they did it God is that what it would have been wow yeah you know oh they'd have three guards all with a bit of string on the trigger and they'd all pull it once so that none of them could be condemned in the Buddhist sense of sin oh they don't even actually right I see it caused the bullet that finished you off oh I see so you're in the Thai prison you've been sentenced to uh rather unpleasant death penalty um how did you start coming up with this famous plan for escaping um desperation it was the last plan that looked like it was going to work um there were probably about 20 plans considered um everything from being the prison held I've since found out it holds 22 000 people oh my God in 10 sub prisons uh there's a women's section there's a young offenders there's a special reminder a drug unit all of that um just a wild place it has everything it even had a prisoner-run shop where you could extract you could borrow money against your account and cash anyway um one of the plans involved being welded into a VW Combi van in the prisons Auto Workshop which would be picked up early Monday morning and I'd be driven out and that another one was um there were several courtroom ones and you couldn't just pay your way out no no it's just you could pay to have a mobile phone which in those days was a rare thing but they were around um you could pay for a bottle of clong uh whiskey you could pay I'm sure you could pay to get a a girl in your room if you could work out what a room was that a whole section full of ladyboys there and got a building full of them they used to open it up on Saturdays so um you could pay for anything but not to leave they couldn't cover that and they couldn't trust each other you would need 25 30 different guards paid off and and the gods of visitors I mean too many guides no that wouldn't work and they looked at it as a kind of betrayal only if I saw two escapes attempts there one group of uh straight kids and a Singaporean got out of their cell incredibly turned themselves into the sleeping God when they'd all lied to each other about what they didn't have you know the ropes and ways out because they're it was so outraged that they'd spoiled the guys jobs they beat them to death slowly tortured them over three months to death having put them in little code lockers the soy they call them drag them out in elephant chains every day and batter them senseless uh internal bleeding usually did it um look I've got a bowl of rice and a painting to poo in that was it um even the water was it was just too horrible so if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off even my Swedish friends Sten the Viking he backed out at the last minute I couldn't get people to go with me all the other plants had fallen to bits because they depended on other people I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars and I needed equipment for that and here's a really important point I guess as bad as this world is you've got to try to find good people if you ask somebody if you asked your friend yeah and and you're finished you'll manage to get a phone call and say friend it's been here um I need you to get um I don't know four hacksaw blades and cut them into the dowel rods of a of a poster and then paint it all up and send it in a huge package with this that cable ties gaffer tape but disguise all that how many people are going to do it turn around wouldn't believe it Ben called me what his neck yeah he's screwed but anyway he wouldn't believe but he wants me to do this that now people don't do it but Michael on the other hand our business partner wouldn't even let me explain he hadn't heard from me in 18 months he said David don't explain I'm sure we could get cut off tell me the important part now where do I have to be and what do I have to bring no that's a friend um and so I've always tried to do the same for the others that I've known like that um but um I did get the equipment together that I needed and everything um about escapes from a big prison is not like your hope it's going to be you know I turned it out walked around the streets and it had streets inside it um and timed it with my trusty Casio and it was so I knew roughly how long it would take to get me but the night's a different world I'm a prisoner I'm only used to noise during the day even the fan chopping around in the Cell at night it's so quiet everything I did squeaked and rattled and twisted I came across a panel that had to be a nail had to come out and that and they'll protest it and scream their wrench out of the way it took um uh seven or eight worlds uh sorry seven or eight walls to cross over I say worlds because they really were every building was a different thing and I got lost and I went past the terminal AIDS Ward that building hundreds of guys all die and I could smell it before I got there because this necrotic Rotting Flesh and I couldn't resist looking in I'm carrying this huge long ladder made out of bamboo poles and fake picture frames gaffer taped along the center [Music] um and I looked up and I saw all these little faces in the Moonlight wrapped in so much pain and despair they didn't have the energy to cry out to the guards if they'd been in any other prisoners they would have the trustees there were absolute scum of the earth had whistled little uniforms sell the drugs one day and the rest of the guys for it the next all of that um and it was only by um well I only got to the outer wall by Dawn and if somebody had been with me I wouldn't have made it either you wouldn't have no imagine I've taken all night to get there and at each point where this something was unexpected I've had to dream up something and I get a little basic toolkit and I sometimes I'd have to sacrifice part of my ladder to make a hook to pull down barbed wire and the technique for using the thing was awkward you had to prop it walk up drop down the other side so you're twisting over the walls like that manual is entirely barbed wire so I had to go underneath it covered in mud the the last one was really too high and there was a Mars bar Creek the the moat that ran around I did you know if I was with somebody else we'd be arguing wouldn't we oh Spa Creek oh it was full of turds bombing around it was caught out of the sewer yeah you did ask um illustrative okay we're just gonna take a quick break from the show to talk about a sponsor of this episode better help better help is an online Counseling Service which connects people to therapists and counselors I'm joined by one of our producers bryony is counseling something you've had experience with do you know what it's interesting because when I was growing up the same kind of challenges in life would happen but people wouldn't necessarily go to therapy or talk about therapy and I feel like since uh maybe my late teens early 20s people are starting to go to therapy and talking about it and I have definitely used it in my life and it's been massively beneficial same and do you because I think one of the things that people often mistake they think it's just for big things yeah but what's the other experience of that thing I think life always throws you know small challenges and large challenges and sometimes the big things need talking about but actually you know starting a new school or starting a new job can rile up that same level of anxiety and it's just really helpful to be able to talk to someone about it who is completely impartial not involved in your life and just kind of a safe space I guess to just say whatever you want to say you completely agree as the world's largest therapy service better help as much 3 million people with professionally licensed and vetted therapists available 100 online plus it's affordable just fill out a brief questionnaire to match with a therapist if things aren't clicking you can easily switch to a new therapist anytime it couldn't be simpler no waiting rooms no traffic no endless searching for the right therapist learn more and save 10 of your first month at betterhelp.com minutes with that's betterhelp help help.com minutes with um now there was one way of oh Beyond marsburg create this a foot and a half of land before this huge huge wall you've got to get a ladder that's too heavy to carry too imbalanced to do anything with but you've got a bit of rope how do you get it to the other side of Mars bar which has all got tangled barb wire in that so it'll catch get it in place and up against the wall when you've got no ground to to walk on now there is a way and uh I guess people have to listen to me describe it either to you or in my book okay fine but too long to tell here sure but um I could see the glow of dawn as I got to the top which had electricity running through it too just to make it the top of the wall dead yeah yeah wow but um my friend who um was in there a bit of a technician is to belong to the anarchist Society in in Britain how would you belong to a society that has rules when you anyway putting that aside he did tell me that it would only be 240 volts but to be careful um and just managed to get over that and because the original plan was to um oh there was an outer moat beyond that of 20 meters I had my clothes ready to go into a plastic bag swim the moat but just as well I didn't um because all it turned out all the guards houses were over the other side of that moat this would not be a place to go but I cleaned myself up threw some clothes on and I one of the jobs that I didn't do but I was supposed to be doing was working in the Umbrella Factory so I paid a local boy to do it um I've got a pop-up umbrella from there I thought you know you really get a perspective about I want to just simple discrimination but being an outsider a foreigner the way sometimes people feel picked upon you know we were called the white trash and we were in in Chains and everything so I knew I had to cover my face in the popular did it and I managed to get to a place where a passport was hidden and to the airport and still had a working ATM card to get me out of the country into Singapore so did you end up with the umbrella did you walk out the front gate yeah I did I had some long trousers on now in their prisoners are not allowed to wear them so I had some khaki pants I thought they might as I walked around the the narrow path to the front gate it's still mote but a little Bridge I thought another figure it's a guard arriving late and sneaking in and I did I felt like Ripley an alien uh looking at thinking lucky lucky this is where it all ends doesn't it and I'm thinking that every moment and looking up and there was just enough light rain to justify the umbrella yeah I would learn later that was actually the not a rain from the gods but the spittle of their laughter because they had worse things in mind for me later on I mean it's so it's you know how many people are you aware how many people had escaped from that prison up to that point was it some every year or was it very infrequent none um the ties sometimes ran away when they were doing the gardens in Chains outside but Escape From Within um I'd known of in 20 years people could recall two attempts no foreigners um and they didn't trust the foreigners that's why they put you on the third floor right quite rightly yes and and how long had it taken you from like the beginning of the uh I started cutting at um 11 45 I paid a lot to get a light switch in there normally the lights are on all the time um okay and I said to my favorite guard oh yeah Ponting or whatever his name was I can't sleep with that thing I'll put a light switch in um um now they didn't say it as corruption or bribe taking they thought I'm doing this nice guy a favor and I'll be lucky because of it that's a very big thing over there you know if I get caught I'm unlucky then so they can batter me to death I mean sure it's kind of self-justifies any action that a human being might take so he started cutting around eight for 11 45 11 45 okay it's quite close through one bar by two in the morning oh God stencia listen we'll go on the next note I looked around and Kevin the American from Hawaii I didn't even know this was happening uh Mirage the Indian I know he's going to talk the next morning he was kakaria LA pantaloni right in the cell never mind holding out and not saying anything he would have it would have been finished I never would have made it and I guess I could have seen the missing bars potentially but I learned later on I actually caught up with somebody who was in there Scottish guy um he was there for selling ecstasy to the Two well-off Sons and Daughters of wealthy policemen anyway um he remembers they the guards couldn't figure that I'd left oh um he said David they ran around the the prison calling out your name it was Daniel Westlake while I was there Daniel Daniel they okay that somebody drew their attention to the cut bar in there yeah my Scottish friend said they the gods wanted they thought that okay he's got out he's angry about something uh Daniel but he's not actually he'll never get out he couldn't get it they never found the the ladder down the front wall until much much later so for um uh uh only one of them said oh we better check the airport they sent a couple of guys down there um just a little bit late and you were gone by then only just and remember man you've got a passport from a Chinese connection that you barely know but kind of like the cut of his jib but are you gonna put your life on the line on that and at every moment you're handing it over you know like the look of it yeah they don't like the look of it they're typing it up and you're thinking they got onto the computer have they done that bit uh have they entered my arrival was this I knew it was freshly stolen or sold off was only a few weeks old uh I mean not new was had only gone missing a few weeks earlier so it was still good but very nerve-wracking and I didn't have a photo I had to use my old um uh radio operators license that had a photograph in it to get reproduced into this thing so it was a bit grainy um and even on the plane it was delay and takeoff oh God and a mumbling Captain oh sorry um we we have a thing with one passenger I just asked what thing exactly soon enough thwomp doors to manual oh but I've got an hour you know looking at this passport I don't like it get to Singapore but I make it through so you got to Singapore yeah but you did end up going back to prison not a Thai prison but a different prison he's suggesting uh I did something wrong well I'm hoping you're going to tell me um no well okay uh I didn't stay in Singapore long because um I sat there in the hotel room unable to digest food not prepared by my own cook sure I in the hotel room in Singapore I realized you could work out who had left that day if they'd flown my air by simply going to the airport and children you work it out yourselves at home you check everybody who's left separate the foreigners hmm go a step further let's keep the Canadian and American the British the Australian New Zealand all the English-speaking passport Society um just to you know reduce the numbers take those names check with the embassies any of these names belong to lost or stolen passports that have been reported yeah five of them because that's Bangkok you know not the only Mischief maker there but nonetheless um they probably knew I could be who was I Charles McClintock hmm sorry Charles I had to borrow your passport but it was an essential cause but you're not wanted anymore of course are you no but I did get an unwelcome knock at the door some years ago uh by the police who um would it be to go excuse me Westminster Court known for the terrorist cases extradition or parking fights wow I'd lift the car anywhere lately so it was going to be one of the other two and it was extradition to Thailand I fought that case for two years and um it was difficult um but managed to effectively win in the end so the ties have dropped that one and I can't be taken back there I'm not wanted anywhere um I can nobody can do what they want but um I I'm not I haven't got anything pending I'm not in business I'm a bit cautious I even got sent something in the the mail a few years ago and I thought it was some gift from some halfway ambitious wombat in in Pakistan sending me a bit of dope thinking oh yeah there's a gift you might like that connection made no I mean people had my address all around the world ever since Danny Dyer um it turned out to be more complicated than that but um very dangerous for me to walk into a courtroom so I don't even imagine you're me and knock at the door oh here's something for you Ben you don't like the look of it you refuse it you're in court no matter why did you refuse that was it your name no you was up The Jig was up proof ladies and gentlemen oh you accept it ah you accepted it proof ladies and gentlemen wife saying to me Jeanette and whom I met in Pakistan years ago and she was there to fish out her husband on a two-ton hash deal he didn't make it anyway um she said throw the thing away I'm thinking in court again ladies and gentlemen he threw the stuff away I can't win so very cautious about all that kind of stuff um fair enough but I take it you won't be going for a holiday to Thailand anytime soon I didn't think so okay so how many do you know off the top of your head of your life how many years of your life have you spent in prison ultimately I did add it up once I'm 66 now and I suppose I've spent um but 22 years the thing that occurs to me and I met you before and I thought the same thing is like you obviously extremely intelligent extremely resourceful it can't be well but well anyway but do you regret the choices you made in terms of do you see those 22 years in prison as something you had no control over it's just the way the dice rolled or do you see them as a mistake on your part um worse than a mistake mistake suggest you didn't know uh where you were going wrong I was taking those steps into uh of a precipice that I'd defied there is no gravity I said I said I will work out something before I hit the ground um when I was It was kind of in stages when I was young it was just arrogance and and showing off and later on when everything was destroyed it was kind of I'd scraped away all of my life and would just go on um then in the third stage it was escaping away from places rebuilding up and being weakened every time it was taken away again um and do I regret it yeah I'm sure I um no you know some people say oh yeah but David just smuggled everything on Earth you scumbag you you know um think of the lives you've destroyed and the people you've heard ah and I go to start to explain that it's not quite black and white uh I mean I've had drug habits myself that I've carelessly allowed um but I thought what's the point anything I say we just sound like self-justification so well don't listen to me then you know but things that have happened that have taught me a lot it's interesting you say that because one of a lot of the comments on our well on the first video we did a lot of the comments where people saying someone needs to make a movie about this guy but a lot of the other comments were people saying he's so charismatic and likable but he must be a really dangerous person to have been involved with all these worlds for so long and um we've interviewed a couple of drug smugglers and I would say they're the ones that I've met have been the ones that probably are more someone you'd see is traditionally quite an obviously dangerous person you come across as very Charming charismatic roguish where do you see yourself on that scale do you see yourself as someone who was dangerous or do you see yourself as someone who's just moved from area to area as it occurred um kind of like this a dangerous I suppose what most people see that and you know if somebody was a problem for me would I find the best option to have them killed or not but really there always was a kind of Vestige of that's a failure if you can't think of anything better than to have them killed then then then what are you doing there's a million clever ways of solving your problems and that besides which there's always going to be people you can't kill everybody um not only that who killed the killers that you've got to do the killing you know you know they always say that about the quiet ones and all of that but it was the people who bothered to put up a smoke screen um they're establishing a um later Alibi a courtroom personality but I met him he didn't seem bothered by all of that why would he have him killed and those are the ones that um seem to be more dangerous and if I was such a dangerous person like that I certainly been absolute fool to break from that mold and say otherwise wouldn't it very true David it's great to see you again thank you so much for coming in always a pleasure yeah and I've Got a Feeling we'll be seeing you again at some point as well it's possible it does may cross thank you I'll be like oh my God they're in my head they they know they know that was a song and so they put that song on the radio and it's all everything revolves around me or you know and this happened well sometimes happens today you know I'm I'm thinking of someone in my head someone under there like on the street	setback and that changes it I probably made quite a lot of money and I could have got out but and I should have gotta you know I have couriers a leak from one of the the couriers brought the police to me and here was the problem with it it was at first I scattered now I was married to my first wife then clearly Italian girl her dad had restaurants I grabbed her I had a secret drawer with extra passports in it some money ended up four plane Journeys later in um off the Bahamas had the skipper of a day rent yacht and take me out to an island and nobody had ever been on before it was empty sat there on a towel I thought hmm the level of surveillance I had means it's quite a big operation they're funded and I checked with a lawyer before the bigger the money they spent the more determined they'll be stay away or go back I mean I don't know why would anybody do this uh well I wasn't broke um I didn't have to there was no pressure on me the more I went through the problems the more attractive the whole thing is uh she didn't like it much well again do you think because it was a puzzle to be solved because um arrogance really we've gone from basically someone who was kind of mildly interested in making a group of people meeting a	5	8	7	setback and that changes it I probably made quite a lot of money and I could have got out but and I should have gotta you know I have couriers a leak from one of the the couriers brought the police to me and here was the problem with it it was at first I scattered now I was married to my first wife then clearly Italian girl her dad had restaurants I grabbed her I had a secret drawer with extra passports in it some money ended up four plane Journeys later in um off the Bahamas had the skipper of a day rent yacht and take me out to an island and nobody had ever been on before it was empty sat there on a towel I thought hmm the level of surveillance I had means it's quite a big operation they're funded and I checked with a lawyer before the bigger the money they spent the more determined they'll be stay away or go back I mean I don't know why would anybody do this uh well I wasn't broke um I didn't have to there was no pressure on me the more I went through the problems the more attractive the whole thing is uh she didn't like it much well again do you think because it was a puzzle to be solved because um arrogance really	do you think because it was a puzzle to be solved	4,5,8	2,4,6	4	5	8	2	4	6
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyZyHHexx7s	4,101	oyZyHHexx7s	2022-12-07 00:00:00	even though I was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off I couldn't get people to go with me I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars [Music] it's great to have you back David obviously we've met before but for anyone who doesn't know who you are for new listeners or new viewers could you give us a brief introduction to what you are famous for well I suppose uh most well known for uh having escaped to prison in Thailand in Bangkok uh the biggest one they have there clong Prim it uh wasn't something I did frivolously I was going to be executed within a couple of weeks so it seemed like a good time to leave okay now um we're going to get into that in a bit more detail but one thing that I remember about you from last time is you're the most incredible talker and we took away the inter the initial interview we've done with you and ended up having to make it into two long episodes because you have a lot of different very colorful uh experiences so do forgive me if I Jimmy us through oh no I can understand that I mean the only place I never talk is in the police station I always like some of my uh work colleagues took um what was it one slap to get them talking but five to shut them up oh okay so let's go right back to the beginning um you were born in the UK and then I believe you emigrated to Australia well um it was all a family thing yes I was born in basewater in London I spent the first few years of my life then uh there but my parents broke up divorced and I went with my mother to Australia with my older sister so I don't have any really very early memories of London apart from some old eight millimeter movie footage of me learning to walk in Hyde Park my dad was waving a five pound note in front of my face and I was making every effort to grab it I continued that behavior for many many years afterwards returned to Australia um finished some schooling um got really contrasting jobs I worked in an adult Agency for a while um but also before that I was got a job in a cinema now it was the and under literally an underground place but it was there that I got introduced to a bunch of crooks um some of the girls there had boyfriends that I used to run down with um strange boxes or bits of money or fur coats and then wink at me bolt out the back door pursued by often policemen undercover ones of course whom we'd misdirect somewhere but that Circle they were um safe crackers and they really didn't trust Outsiders and didn't much like the sound of me but because of I demonstrated a couple of things by being look everybody was really very anti-authority then I I don't mean hostile but for people now they they wouldn't have experienced that in the uh late 60s 70s we were so snotty and arrogant we really thought we were going to change the world and that um the laws were all nothing and the way to change them was to break them well that was the kind of vanity we had so um when I got to know the safe crackers uh better there was something really interesting I mean I didn't like the idea you know stealing things seemed a bit tacky but on the other hand they kind of all needed the money from the from their backgrounds and everything but that wasn't so much the the interest it was the technicalities of getting into these things okay um they used to drill through the top um having anchored it with the drill with clamps and and put a kind of little lens inside a cystoscope used in medicine and watch the the wheels turning around this is the old kind of old-fashioned Hollywood style it was yeah and um behind the safe were three discs and you had to line them up and they'd once they got in they'd take the door with them so that the opposition the safe makers wouldn't know how they'd got in and it was a a constant battle between the manufacturers and them because they've come across new safes which had Special Metals in it that was mixed like a a crunchy nut bar very hard metals very soft ones so the drill bit would slip on them snap and you got a sense that this was almost like a game where um they would try something then try to beat them and they were very loyal to each other um they they never spoke out of school as it were um when I got involved with them I'd only have to if I had trouble I don't have to make one phone call and people would appear out of nowhere and I thought yeah this this is kind of better than the treacherous boys school that I I grew up in and how old were you at this point um 19 years old 19. so were you thinking you were making a conscious decision to move into illegal activities or at that point in time and at that point in the world did it feel like more of a kind of a bit of roguish fun would you say I was drawn to it anyway because it was interesting and um I didn't really have a lot of fear I think sometimes what we do or don't do is depending on how scary it seems yeah agreed um I was born with a low resting heart rate as they say you know if it's below 70 you're a risk taker I don't know why that is when the safe crackers retired they put some of their money into growing little crops of weed and so on but profit margin is is only through importing because like the price difference is cheap in the source countries expensive where it sells so because they couldn't do it they were almost throwing it down like a challenge like we don't know anybody who can do this and I thought well I traveled a lot um I didn't think it was going to be impossible um I thought the odds were in my phone and I looked it up I went to the library and sort of researched it a bit and where were you thinking which country Well they um they were very keen to get some um hashish from India or Nepal or somewhere okay I could see um it's bulky and there's packing problems so um they funded me and off I sailed now the operation my first operation was so deplorably bad I'm barely 20 years old I my cunning plan which involved a big piece of exported Machinery which had weights in it so the weights would come out the cash would go in it would weigh the same being returned and it was a piece of Television equipment or something that went South immediately when I didn't realize that I would have to pay a huge deposit in duty to even bring it in as a demo machine so forget that I ended up in short meeting a guy in a money exchange section of a bank I was there because I ran out and I had to send asking for more from the boys and I met him and he wasn't involved in any of this but he soon became that just he managed to get me six kilos of hash I took the 1952 ancient Grundig radio from his parents house the Shelf there guttered the thing like a fish wrapped it up and he had to get cling film in those days think of this before you travel arriving with a suitcase full of cling film doesn't look good I suppose but uh wedged it in there and then just flew back to Sydney now you can imagine what happened well just before we get on to what happened you know one thing that strikes me is what year was would this have been this was uh 77 77 so it's amazing think that back then if someone was going to India for the first time now they could go on Google Maps they could research it or they could find out who they could find phone numbers contacts they could be put in contact with people before they've even set off whereas you must have at that age at that time been going in slightly blind you know touching down in a foreign country that you didn't know well no contacts was that not quite daunting well what was more um troubling with um how everything would fail and then I'd have to um you know come up with another plan what context somebody I knew um um there were no bank robber who joined the hare krishnas and fled to India right and I had his name and and the ashram in Delhi where where he was was supposed to have been uh I didn't really catch up with him on that trip but okay sure so so then you get back to Australia with your radio that is now full to the brim with and I get stopped you you did get stopped okay I could stop because uh I'm I'm on a British passport um and it's the only trip I've ever done and I'm that age I'd stop me oh fatherly type was at the Customs desk now the the systems were different in those days um it was Sydney too which is very and certainly was very relaxed back then right he opened the suitcase uh there was nothing in there except a pair of socks there's a towel wrapping up this massive radio which he lifted up so it was buckled at the sides little red packets poking out oh it smelled like a hedgehog for a patchouliers okay not much of a disguise um he let me go he uh put it back looked around to make sure that none of his workmates were watching him being so soft um and then turned to me and said you're going back there you're going to do this again [Music] all right you can take your we'll call it a radio shall we get out of here what he thought I realized later was that he didn't want the whole grammar of the day arresting me filling out papers and it would have been a a long time plus I guess being a dad he thought if I he's obviously an idiot you're right if I send him into Gladiator Academy or it wasn't really like that in those days but certainly contact center um the prison what am I doing um well I guess uh he was hopeful you know I whilst out of there must have smuggling me but I experienced then what um I got years later which was kind of a real Downer after you know having got nowhere with The Hare krishnas and and cultivated the shoeshine boys and had my money stolen at Amex uh by some Scallywags in Delhi all sorts of Little Adventures over there in India and nonetheless made it it's kind of like that's all there is to it I I didn't really want to give it to anyone um sort of felt like you didn't have a big moment of no a bit of money that came earlier that's handy right uh I paid back what I owed and settled up for for the next thing so but once that was started when you sorry I interrupted you go oh I was just going to say it to finish it even though they'd funded me the guys were very surprised to see me back but at all at all oh you made it oh because some of them say oh you'll just run away with it uh even if that's what he's doing who knows what he's doing you know and then I could see sitting around you can imagine there's like a table full of well like three guys and then a kind of Darkness shrouded over that room I thought uh it's not valuable enough to kill me you know what what is this mood why did you bring that well that's what you've been talking about yeah you could have loaded that with cane or smack or something you guys we say nothing but terrible things about a class or heavy drugs that don't want to know about it right and I could read then that wait a minute there we're all might be guys together and having fun getting into the safe and whatnot but there was a kind of different it was something a very strong lesson I'd have to be thoughtful about that um there could be times where things didn't work out not necessarily that my safety was at risk I didn't see it that way but I knew that there were Ruthless People right okay yeah so you got an insight into a mindset that had been a bit below the surface it was there I just chose not to see it but um I then went on to you know refine everything and Vary everything and then did you after that first time did you were you still working sort of for them or did you immediately well when you wake up on your own when things um I picked up and there was enough money around out of uh out of strategy rather than just being a nice guy I gave my partners a kind of thank you bonus from the next thing that I did but I did that all myself right so it was almost like a yeah separation and I wanted to go back to the my hippie friends anyway they were a little less it wasn't that they were scary but but that didn't last because they were maybe friends might be all right but they will certainly careless and stupid but from from that point onwards after that initial Journey was that you then into the world of smuggling I thought this won't last forever you only need one setback and that changes it I probably made quite a lot of money and I could have got out but and I should have gotta you know I have couriers a leak from one of the the couriers brought the police to me and here was the problem with it it was at first I scattered now I was married to my first wife then clearly Italian girl her dad had restaurants I grabbed her I had a secret drawer with extra passports in it some money ended up four plane Journeys later in um off the Bahamas had the skipper of a day rent yacht and take me out to an island and nobody had ever been on before it was empty sat there on a towel I thought hmm the level of surveillance I had means it's quite a big operation they're funded and I checked with a lawyer before the bigger the money they spent the more determined they'll be stay away or go back I mean I don't know why would anybody do this uh well I wasn't broke um I didn't have to there was no pressure on me the more I went through the problems the more attractive the whole thing is uh she didn't like it much well again do you think because it was a puzzle to be solved because um arrogance really we've gone from basically someone who was kind of mildly interested in making a group of people meeting a group of um safe hackers to someone who pulled off their first thing and then we've jumped to someone who has people working for them and and now is no longer taking the risk themselves now the police are on to you and you're on this desert island well small island and you're thinking about going back into it was this like a turning point in your life in terms of going you know because the other option I suppose was to go straight but were you just more it was that just not an option for you I'd gone to my lawyer Ralph he said look this is what I picked up because I my travel agent had tipped me to a couple of detectives that come in he traveled again while I was in on the phone okay uh actually they're all innocent really yeah you know and and gave him a long list of names um they wanted travel details for and a telephone number which I traced uh to um a private office building which had been rented by state and federal police they were so distrusting of their own they didn't want to even run this thing from um regular police headquarters my lawyer said well what you sure it's you said Ralph look at the list of names there's 30 there I'm 26 of them passports are a lot easier to get back then than there now so you had 26 aliases that you were traveling on yeah right okay um and I described where they were he said David they are funded well they're not bear this in mind but although I what they won't get me with anything they're funded you think they're going to walk away after a year and say oh sorry boss you spend a million dollars and uh nothing doing they don't work like that but this is how stubborn I was I thought because he said the only thing you can do is disappear for at least a couple of years and then you can come back if that's what you want and of course I had justifications for it I thought okay I'll I'll build up a bit more money and then I'll disappear but um it was only after things went terribly badly that I realized I shouldn't play like this anymore what it was they um because the challenge just kept coming so now so did you go back to Australia I went back to Australia and and when I retired within three months right but they weren't waiting for you to arrest you or no no they wanted they wanted something solid okay [Music] um I won't go into the long machinations of it all but um somebody we knew uh was getting things from a Thai Courier and he got arrested he sold us out to the police so that that The Courier would now come to us and I always have some solid evidence right he would bring things but we got away with that because that was another challenge but the police got tired of all this arrested me no drugs of course so it was a difficult case the worst kind of case is that where there's no solid evidence and in a way it's better to go to court where you've got a Smoking Gun and a dead body on the ground because at least you know where you are but where there's nothing tangible and it's conspiracies and this was a huge trial six months long what is that 119 Witnesses 6 000 pages of uh telephone intercept massive thing won't made it worse too and I think this was um would change things for me um the pressure was put on for confessions but it'd be silly to confess and you can't confess on somebody else's behalf can you that's not nice um lots of the family were arrested even my mother was taken and it went oh wow just to put pressure on uh did she know what you did oh she had an idea right okay I mean I used to have bin liners full of money I'd leave behind the fridge yeah you don't get that in the cinema do you not done not a very good day you know uh because they arrested so many people now when they arrested our wives and my business partner Michael his wife just had a baby it was we had to do a deal here I didn't want to but I was going to say I said to Michael look I know you don't like it but we'll play to it get the girls out of trouble we'll Escape that's a good challenge that way [Music] um but unfortunately um the intelligence section put an arsonist Informer in with the girls to get some information her fire was lit uh burnt down the women's prison and my wife and my business partner's wife was were killed uh that's awful and so the Informer that they put in there yeah why did they pick an arsonist for Daniel writer name was I don't know why I remember that after 40 years God so that's quite a big that was oh and and just uh to make things worse the story put about town to scare the careers into talking because they wouldn't speak was that we'd we were killing off all the witnesses and starting with our own family where does that come from um we ended up in a super max prison nightmarish electronic zoo with two inch glass and electronic doors and insane inmates held 48 death rate 27 people a year died in that little supermax going to court in Chains with a SWAT team taking it it was so so much Michael fell to pieces he was just a wreck he didn't make it uh he survived the jail but died when he got out the only way I could survive all of that was to strip away everything I you know I found myself in the supermax concrete everything's concrete the bed everything there's no everything's still just with the tape player from my lure listening to the the tapes the bug tapes the microphones in my house I could play back my life for the last six months clearly you're moving from room to room taking telephone calls she was crying about something I didn't know what I never know and David that's gone immerse yourself in the worst that they have you will not survive this otherwise trial sort of went not so good acquitted of most things but convicted enough 10 years difficult imprisonment but I the only way I could deal with it was to say did I want revenge that was more my fault I brought this about I got her in there I mean a family of a very kind to me about it considering I wouldn't be but it doesn't matter in Chains and super Mech strip it all away it is nothing everyone is a potential enemy everything it just nothing mattered win the day win the night I mean this is a place we had to fill in a book to get some toilet paper the showers were in front of them in a glass box um if you went on a visit they'd zip you up and lock you in a suit so you had no pockets there was after that and her death I felt like there was nothing that could affect me you're wrong about these things you know we're human but I got out and they were there they even visited me to say we'll be on you when you get out the police yeah we enjoyed the old days didn't you yeah I said pretending you know and just to make the point that they were there when I got out um I I'd done a whole lot of Woodwork in the prison in the last place I was at carving intricate things making these really great trick Chinese boxes with beeswax they intercepted the van that was taking it from the prison back to my house and smashed it all to pieces I put it in a box just to say don't think that we will never be here we can do what we want so I decided to leave the country I was um how old am I by then let's work it out yeah uh I started all this Mischief when I was about 18 got arrested at 22. 23 uh um 16 years 17 years either under surveillance or in bad prisons got out and I'm under surveillance again um so how old so you're number 37 about 37. so that's already you know that's a big chunk of Life there but you've lost quite a lot of it to prison or surveillance well at no point now were you like okay and I wasn't a normal person uh really when I got out because of the experience of prison I'd already stripped most of Myself Away to deal with the death of the Superman yeah and and watching people be burnt to death in the place which was frequent somebody had contact glue pulled all over him and then satellite oh God Gods came in and the other one's standing there with a Tire swinging it around to make sure to let him burn let him burn Jesus Barry's name was testicles swollen like apples but black okay he died two hours later in hospital anyway um that was regular account to deal with that I'd already strip things away so when I got a little apartment when I got out and my mother had arranged things for me when they were there when they'd leave rude messages on my answer machine when they'd be behind me everywhere I thought all right I remember this David it never ends if you want to survive go back to the way you were you know in in the super max Anything Can Happen anytime but I didn't want to live like that um I got a fresh passport and most elaborate means um I could spend a week explaining how that came into existence but I went to Thailand to pick up some money I had three days there it was just before Christmas I left at that time on purpose so that they maybe I thought maybe it's their weak point that they want to have families in their life just at Christmas I've parked my mum's car and and left the keys somewhere for her nobody knew were you not meant to leave the country no no no licenses oh I see we're just going to take a minute here to talk about a sponsor of this show which is manscaped we were sent a package to try out by manscaped but Conor one of our producers is already a fan of the brand I believe yeah absolutely I've been using manscape for a little while now and Ben as you know it's that time of year people start asking you what you want for Christmas and I would say that a great gift for a man especially one that might have everything is the manscape performance package 4.0 so what's in that so you get the lawnmower 4.0 electric trimmer you get some anti-chafe boxer shorts which I can vouch for as well as a couple of other grooming products that smell great fantastic well it sounds like a five-star review from uconnor absolutely so Connor you were talking about the performance package there's loads of other great gift ideas such as the hygiene bundle all available at manscape.com com and all gifts that men will genuinely love to receive this Christmas if you are a listener of this podcast you get 20 off and free shipping all you have to do is go to manscape.com and use the code minutes that's manscape.com m-i-n-u-t-e-s minutes um so why are we doing that the risk is it worth it I didn't want to play anymore right I wanted to uh see if I could have a something resembling like a a real life just to find some corner of the world plan was to to return to London and oh so you were leaving forever I'm leaving forever okay I see nobody knew it um I had a couple of hundred thousand in Thailand I thought um which I returned to pick up um now I suppose people say this Crooks always say this most unusual circumstances led to my arrest well they were but then again they always are aren't they or you wouldn't be telling the story or you wouldn't have been arrested but um the USDA was involved lots of people lots of players uh no real drugs are found uh they did an airport sweep and listed me up for like an ounce of something and a false passport or two the money I had just disappeared into pockets but those when I arrived there I felt so free I knew this identity was good I just like floating on air really I slipped out of my protective mode you know that when we stick to the plan and all right you don't want to leave I should have even stayed there for six months just get some sensible view of the world but I I didn't uh and as I went to the airport I could see they were all around me and I melted back into the crowd and disappeared again I thought well that serves me right for changing that attitude I'd had from back in super max and I just glaze over concentrate on the details which I needed to do because when I went to make a phone call later at the travel agency uh waiting it was so depressing being thrown into the Thai prison and I had some idea what they'd be like um people I'd known had been arrested there I knew this much it never won a case you never get out well you get out and what were they arresting you for was it the the uh the passport um what did the the the money wasn't I mean what did they leave 4 000 or something like that right and there are airports we put um I saw the guy walking in with it in a plastic bag you know whatever people throw on the floor before they go through security there was a bit of hash this usual bits of weed but what they really wanted was um this 25 grams of heroin because that would finish me off a policeman um Australian one said was that yours yeah yeah sure it was he said I didn't think so what would you be carrying around that for I mean if it was 10 kilos I might understand but but that was enough the death penalty and was it yours no no no so where where would that come from if you do they do a sweep every afternoon at five o'clock they get tons of it right I get you know nervous passengers go up and then they change their minds and they throw it in the toilet too and were they just did do you think they believed it was yours or do you think they were just going this is we need to give him this bit no no I think they were using it hoping to that would be good to hold and maybe they could get something else find out what I was up to who I was seeing because I had met um somebody who's whose uncle was a big player right so there was there was I think they were optimistic there might be more Camp come out of it but but there wasn't but what difference did it make and I wasn't really worried about um those drugs or the death penalty I wanted to die anyway frankly my first escape plans from there had this I imagine getting out to find the Privacy to kill myself right I wanted to go to the dusa Tony Hotel I knew Which floor and where to get onto the roof I'd taken photographs from there many years before um they were you simply couldn't get a moment's piece dormitories with 150 guys in them screaming all night um we can't even take a crap in peace in the Thai prison We're Not Afraid though of what killing myself well no I mean I don't know being brutalized by the guards or the inmates so well I knew enough about Thailand to to know that it was a little more comic than than bad there were very bad things happen they used to um they've beaten people a couple of people get beaten to death every day there but it's a very big prison we have to get that in proportion I only wish they wouldn't use the food trolley to take the dead bodies out because um you know they don't clean them up um and could you speak the language or were you quite it was a quite different communication uh not really uh and the few languages that uh pitch up in my travels I always found that even if you know them it's better to pretend you don't okay um because they'll talk about you behind your back you know certainly didn't live it on there was I I just couldn't see any point I'd gone to such elaborate precautions on this trip um it just shouldn't have happened and I even got away from the airport and still it happened oh all that confidence that I'll figure a way out I didn't care anymore I just had enough um and I remember seeing an old guy there if you had to go to court they put change on you and um you'd line up on the ground now this old guy I was looking at him because I don't know why a big soundtrack went past he had the presence of mind to push his head under that sand truck and oh it twisted it around popped like a watermelon being dropped on the ground oh my God guys very annoyed told the trustees to get that thing away out of sight was that nice thing called it I thought you Brave bastard you yeah you've got the guts to do that was it not quite a disturbing thing to witness no it was shocking because if you haven't seen it kind of thing up close and I happen to be looking um it was uh but that that's how I felt about it but I was saved In The End by a con man and people say a lot of bad things about economy they do yes they do and they uh you can't be trusted uh they are rottenness and they will cheat you just because they're the Scorpion that's in their nature uh but sometimes they're just what you need and this rather smooth um Bostonian American um who spoke Thai and really knew his way around and I you know I thought the somewhere in this huge prison there'd be an enclave of rich and corrupt foreigners with loads of money and there'd be luxuries it wasn't there was nobody of any importance in there you know a couple of big sacrifices had been made but um a couple of very rich policemen who were in the hospital in intensive care but other than that it was it was just um the people who reached the absolute bottom Drifters in Asia who did run after run and then got sacrificed to the machine they'd get about four jobs a big Syndicate there operating careers had run four times bang they'd shot them to the police they'd be gone oh God they will turn told the same story and it was Joe it was this guest house it was such and such identical and um and and at this point had you been sentenced to death had you received oh no no no I I was trying to avoid that yeah once I came to my senses because the the Boston con had so many wonderful schemes medical thing to get me bail and know some way of a escape with a go to court I get snatched from there I had villains come over and and scope out the court too because there was a way I thought of getting out of there from the lift that took you up to the the building uh snatched from the middle as you go down changed into a different set of clothes but they all got scared thing about um some of our most loved uh and fearless villains they're pretty good in the local manner but you throw them into a place like that where people carry machine guns and shoot at will just for the hell of it not so confident they like the upper edge of being snakes um so I couldn't convince anybody to really help and it was just as well um and two and a half years passed there in this prison it's a long time it was I sort of perked up a little bit pulled myself together started exercising um got a couple of ATM cards over hadn't my favorite god um he was in charge of the the building bought myself a room renovated um so you had you bought a room within the prison that was just for you rented that's rented right you know and is that an official thing that you're allowed to do right there are places in the world where it's official right but you had an influx of money that you could pay for special treats you could survive there on um less than 500 pounds a month and be king oh wow was this the 70s or the 80s now by the way we're into um 90 495 19 the 495 because what's reported about you is that during the 80s you were a multi-millionaire um is that accurate um now what do we call a multi-millionaires a young halfway with a million and a quarter on a glass coffee table and looks around the living room and thinks I've got to get a sofa one of these days um oh goes to the car auctions in the morning buys a big yank tank with a 427 Chevy engine in it um drives it around makes his own car parking spaces you know we're smashing the front in backing the other one pushing the other cars out of the way um oh stoned off my head most of the time uh if I wasn't stunned enough I'd take a few mandracks just to colludes icing on the cake um so I didn't take care of the money and the money didn't take care of me so I guess I'm like the reason I the reason I asked was because it must have been quite a stark change going from a very rich existence to basically somewhere where you basically couldn't pay for anything initially and it was a very poor existence but I guess from what you're saying there it's not like you felt like you were Rich at the time um I've made that contrast a few times when I had my first big arrest I couldn't as I was in a cold near lightless cell of blue stone and horse hair mattress about two inches thick and wrecking a piss I would think back to the night before when I had my important to tell in huge bed and Irish linen sheets and swimming pool out there and um and we had to kind of shake off the contrast but that rubber banding must must have been hard to take because it's you're going from basically the aspiration of almost everyone where you're talking about just buying cars outright and having a swimming pool to a piss stinking bed you know it must be it was you know it's odd thing about it was providing I could see a way out a work a way out I didn't so much mind oh okay um I really trained myself to expect my whatever world I built up and and this happened several times I've done it five times had a new identity New Life new surroundings even new people and dang they're gone and every time it got worse um and there was even Thailand was desperately important because even though it was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it um you know I was somebody that nobody minded killing um so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah there's nothing like the prospect of being executed by a machine gun which is the way they did it God is that what it would have been wow yeah you know oh they'd have three guards all with a bit of string on the trigger and they'd all pull it once so that none of them could be condemned in the Buddhist sense of sin oh they don't even actually right I see it caused the bullet that finished you off oh I see so you're in the Thai prison you've been sentenced to uh rather unpleasant death penalty um how did you start coming up with this famous plan for escaping um desperation it was the last plan that looked like it was going to work um there were probably about 20 plans considered um everything from being the prison held I've since found out it holds 22 000 people oh my God in 10 sub prisons uh there's a women's section there's a young offenders there's a special reminder a drug unit all of that um just a wild place it has everything it even had a prisoner-run shop where you could extract you could borrow money against your account and cash anyway um one of the plans involved being welded into a VW Combi van in the prisons Auto Workshop which would be picked up early Monday morning and I'd be driven out and that another one was um there were several courtroom ones and you couldn't just pay your way out no no it's just you could pay to have a mobile phone which in those days was a rare thing but they were around um you could pay for a bottle of clong uh whiskey you could pay I'm sure you could pay to get a a girl in your room if you could work out what a room was that a whole section full of ladyboys there and got a building full of them they used to open it up on Saturdays so um you could pay for anything but not to leave they couldn't cover that and they couldn't trust each other you would need 25 30 different guards paid off and and the gods of visitors I mean too many guides no that wouldn't work and they looked at it as a kind of betrayal only if I saw two escapes attempts there one group of uh straight kids and a Singaporean got out of their cell incredibly turned themselves into the sleeping God when they'd all lied to each other about what they didn't have you know the ropes and ways out because they're it was so outraged that they'd spoiled the guys jobs they beat them to death slowly tortured them over three months to death having put them in little code lockers the soy they call them drag them out in elephant chains every day and batter them senseless uh internal bleeding usually did it um look I've got a bowl of rice and a painting to poo in that was it um even the water was it was just too horrible so if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off even my Swedish friends Sten the Viking he backed out at the last minute I couldn't get people to go with me all the other plants had fallen to bits because they depended on other people I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars and I needed equipment for that and here's a really important point I guess as bad as this world is you've got to try to find good people if you ask somebody if you asked your friend yeah and and you're finished you'll manage to get a phone call and say friend it's been here um I need you to get um I don't know four hacksaw blades and cut them into the dowel rods of a of a poster and then paint it all up and send it in a huge package with this that cable ties gaffer tape but disguise all that how many people are going to do it turn around wouldn't believe it Ben called me what his neck yeah he's screwed but anyway he wouldn't believe but he wants me to do this that now people don't do it but Michael on the other hand our business partner wouldn't even let me explain he hadn't heard from me in 18 months he said David don't explain I'm sure we could get cut off tell me the important part now where do I have to be and what do I have to bring no that's a friend um and so I've always tried to do the same for the others that I've known like that um but um I did get the equipment together that I needed and everything um about escapes from a big prison is not like your hope it's going to be you know I turned it out walked around the streets and it had streets inside it um and timed it with my trusty Casio and it was so I knew roughly how long it would take to get me but the night's a different world I'm a prisoner I'm only used to noise during the day even the fan chopping around in the Cell at night it's so quiet everything I did squeaked and rattled and twisted I came across a panel that had to be a nail had to come out and that and they'll protest it and scream their wrench out of the way it took um uh seven or eight worlds uh sorry seven or eight walls to cross over I say worlds because they really were every building was a different thing and I got lost and I went past the terminal AIDS Ward that building hundreds of guys all die and I could smell it before I got there because this necrotic Rotting Flesh and I couldn't resist looking in I'm carrying this huge long ladder made out of bamboo poles and fake picture frames gaffer taped along the center [Music] um and I looked up and I saw all these little faces in the Moonlight wrapped in so much pain and despair they didn't have the energy to cry out to the guards if they'd been in any other prisoners they would have the trustees there were absolute scum of the earth had whistled little uniforms sell the drugs one day and the rest of the guys for it the next all of that um and it was only by um well I only got to the outer wall by Dawn and if somebody had been with me I wouldn't have made it either you wouldn't have no imagine I've taken all night to get there and at each point where this something was unexpected I've had to dream up something and I get a little basic toolkit and I sometimes I'd have to sacrifice part of my ladder to make a hook to pull down barbed wire and the technique for using the thing was awkward you had to prop it walk up drop down the other side so you're twisting over the walls like that manual is entirely barbed wire so I had to go underneath it covered in mud the the last one was really too high and there was a Mars bar Creek the the moat that ran around I did you know if I was with somebody else we'd be arguing wouldn't we oh Spa Creek oh it was full of turds bombing around it was caught out of the sewer yeah you did ask um illustrative okay we're just gonna take a quick break from the show to talk about a sponsor of this episode better help better help is an online Counseling Service which connects people to therapists and counselors I'm joined by one of our producers bryony is counseling something you've had experience with do you know what it's interesting because when I was growing up the same kind of challenges in life would happen but people wouldn't necessarily go to therapy or talk about therapy and I feel like since uh maybe my late teens early 20s people are starting to go to therapy and talking about it and I have definitely used it in my life and it's been massively beneficial same and do you because I think one of the things that people often mistake they think it's just for big things yeah but what's the other experience of that thing I think life always throws you know small challenges and large challenges and sometimes the big things need talking about but actually you know starting a new school or starting a new job can rile up that same level of anxiety and it's just really helpful to be able to talk to someone about it who is completely impartial not involved in your life and just kind of a safe space I guess to just say whatever you want to say you completely agree as the world's largest therapy service better help as much 3 million people with professionally licensed and vetted therapists available 100 online plus it's affordable just fill out a brief questionnaire to match with a therapist if things aren't clicking you can easily switch to a new therapist anytime it couldn't be simpler no waiting rooms no traffic no endless searching for the right therapist learn more and save 10 of your first month at betterhelp.com minutes with that's betterhelp help help.com minutes with um now there was one way of oh Beyond marsburg create this a foot and a half of land before this huge huge wall you've got to get a ladder that's too heavy to carry too imbalanced to do anything with but you've got a bit of rope how do you get it to the other side of Mars bar which has all got tangled barb wire in that so it'll catch get it in place and up against the wall when you've got no ground to to walk on now there is a way and uh I guess people have to listen to me describe it either to you or in my book okay fine but too long to tell here sure but um I could see the glow of dawn as I got to the top which had electricity running through it too just to make it the top of the wall dead yeah yeah wow but um my friend who um was in there a bit of a technician is to belong to the anarchist Society in in Britain how would you belong to a society that has rules when you anyway putting that aside he did tell me that it would only be 240 volts but to be careful um and just managed to get over that and because the original plan was to um oh there was an outer moat beyond that of 20 meters I had my clothes ready to go into a plastic bag swim the moat but just as well I didn't um because all it turned out all the guards houses were over the other side of that moat this would not be a place to go but I cleaned myself up threw some clothes on and I one of the jobs that I didn't do but I was supposed to be doing was working in the Umbrella Factory so I paid a local boy to do it um I've got a pop-up umbrella from there I thought you know you really get a perspective about I want to just simple discrimination but being an outsider a foreigner the way sometimes people feel picked upon you know we were called the white trash and we were in in Chains and everything so I knew I had to cover my face in the popular did it and I managed to get to a place where a passport was hidden and to the airport and still had a working ATM card to get me out of the country into Singapore so did you end up with the umbrella did you walk out the front gate yeah I did I had some long trousers on now in their prisoners are not allowed to wear them so I had some khaki pants I thought they might as I walked around the the narrow path to the front gate it's still mote but a little Bridge I thought another figure it's a guard arriving late and sneaking in and I did I felt like Ripley an alien uh looking at thinking lucky lucky this is where it all ends doesn't it and I'm thinking that every moment and looking up and there was just enough light rain to justify the umbrella yeah I would learn later that was actually the not a rain from the gods but the spittle of their laughter because they had worse things in mind for me later on I mean it's so it's you know how many people are you aware how many people had escaped from that prison up to that point was it some every year or was it very infrequent none um the ties sometimes ran away when they were doing the gardens in Chains outside but Escape From Within um I'd known of in 20 years people could recall two attempts no foreigners um and they didn't trust the foreigners that's why they put you on the third floor right quite rightly yes and and how long had it taken you from like the beginning of the uh I started cutting at um 11 45 I paid a lot to get a light switch in there normally the lights are on all the time um okay and I said to my favorite guard oh yeah Ponting or whatever his name was I can't sleep with that thing I'll put a light switch in um um now they didn't say it as corruption or bribe taking they thought I'm doing this nice guy a favor and I'll be lucky because of it that's a very big thing over there you know if I get caught I'm unlucky then so they can batter me to death I mean sure it's kind of self-justifies any action that a human being might take so he started cutting around eight for 11 45 11 45 okay it's quite close through one bar by two in the morning oh God stencia listen we'll go on the next note I looked around and Kevin the American from Hawaii I didn't even know this was happening uh Mirage the Indian I know he's going to talk the next morning he was kakaria LA pantaloni right in the cell never mind holding out and not saying anything he would have it would have been finished I never would have made it and I guess I could have seen the missing bars potentially but I learned later on I actually caught up with somebody who was in there Scottish guy um he was there for selling ecstasy to the Two well-off Sons and Daughters of wealthy policemen anyway um he remembers they the guards couldn't figure that I'd left oh um he said David they ran around the the prison calling out your name it was Daniel Westlake while I was there Daniel Daniel they okay that somebody drew their attention to the cut bar in there yeah my Scottish friend said they the gods wanted they thought that okay he's got out he's angry about something uh Daniel but he's not actually he'll never get out he couldn't get it they never found the the ladder down the front wall until much much later so for um uh uh only one of them said oh we better check the airport they sent a couple of guys down there um just a little bit late and you were gone by then only just and remember man you've got a passport from a Chinese connection that you barely know but kind of like the cut of his jib but are you gonna put your life on the line on that and at every moment you're handing it over you know like the look of it yeah they don't like the look of it they're typing it up and you're thinking they got onto the computer have they done that bit uh have they entered my arrival was this I knew it was freshly stolen or sold off was only a few weeks old uh I mean not new was had only gone missing a few weeks earlier so it was still good but very nerve-wracking and I didn't have a photo I had to use my old um uh radio operators license that had a photograph in it to get reproduced into this thing so it was a bit grainy um and even on the plane it was delay and takeoff oh God and a mumbling Captain oh sorry um we we have a thing with one passenger I just asked what thing exactly soon enough thwomp doors to manual oh but I've got an hour you know looking at this passport I don't like it get to Singapore but I make it through so you got to Singapore yeah but you did end up going back to prison not a Thai prison but a different prison he's suggesting uh I did something wrong well I'm hoping you're going to tell me um no well okay uh I didn't stay in Singapore long because um I sat there in the hotel room unable to digest food not prepared by my own cook sure I in the hotel room in Singapore I realized you could work out who had left that day if they'd flown my air by simply going to the airport and children you work it out yourselves at home you check everybody who's left separate the foreigners hmm go a step further let's keep the Canadian and American the British the Australian New Zealand all the English-speaking passport Society um just to you know reduce the numbers take those names check with the embassies any of these names belong to lost or stolen passports that have been reported yeah five of them because that's Bangkok you know not the only Mischief maker there but nonetheless um they probably knew I could be who was I Charles McClintock hmm sorry Charles I had to borrow your passport but it was an essential cause but you're not wanted anymore of course are you no but I did get an unwelcome knock at the door some years ago uh by the police who um would it be to go excuse me Westminster Court known for the terrorist cases extradition or parking fights wow I'd lift the car anywhere lately so it was going to be one of the other two and it was extradition to Thailand I fought that case for two years and um it was difficult um but managed to effectively win in the end so the ties have dropped that one and I can't be taken back there I'm not wanted anywhere um I can nobody can do what they want but um I I'm not I haven't got anything pending I'm not in business I'm a bit cautious I even got sent something in the the mail a few years ago and I thought it was some gift from some halfway ambitious wombat in in Pakistan sending me a bit of dope thinking oh yeah there's a gift you might like that connection made no I mean people had my address all around the world ever since Danny Dyer um it turned out to be more complicated than that but um very dangerous for me to walk into a courtroom so I don't even imagine you're me and knock at the door oh here's something for you Ben you don't like the look of it you refuse it you're in court no matter why did you refuse that was it your name no you was up The Jig was up proof ladies and gentlemen oh you accept it ah you accepted it proof ladies and gentlemen wife saying to me Jeanette and whom I met in Pakistan years ago and she was there to fish out her husband on a two-ton hash deal he didn't make it anyway um she said throw the thing away I'm thinking in court again ladies and gentlemen he threw the stuff away I can't win so very cautious about all that kind of stuff um fair enough but I take it you won't be going for a holiday to Thailand anytime soon I didn't think so okay so how many do you know off the top of your head of your life how many years of your life have you spent in prison ultimately I did add it up once I'm 66 now and I suppose I've spent um but 22 years the thing that occurs to me and I met you before and I thought the same thing is like you obviously extremely intelligent extremely resourceful it can't be well but well anyway but do you regret the choices you made in terms of do you see those 22 years in prison as something you had no control over it's just the way the dice rolled or do you see them as a mistake on your part um worse than a mistake mistake suggest you didn't know uh where you were going wrong I was taking those steps into uh of a precipice that I'd defied there is no gravity I said I said I will work out something before I hit the ground um when I was It was kind of in stages when I was young it was just arrogance and and showing off and later on when everything was destroyed it was kind of I'd scraped away all of my life and would just go on um then in the third stage it was escaping away from places rebuilding up and being weakened every time it was taken away again um and do I regret it yeah I'm sure I um no you know some people say oh yeah but David just smuggled everything on Earth you scumbag you you know um think of the lives you've destroyed and the people you've heard ah and I go to start to explain that it's not quite black and white uh I mean I've had drug habits myself that I've carelessly allowed um but I thought what's the point anything I say we just sound like self-justification so well don't listen to me then you know but things that have happened that have taught me a lot it's interesting you say that because one of a lot of the comments on our well on the first video we did a lot of the comments where people saying someone needs to make a movie about this guy but a lot of the other comments were people saying he's so charismatic and likable but he must be a really dangerous person to have been involved with all these worlds for so long and um we've interviewed a couple of drug smugglers and I would say they're the ones that I've met have been the ones that probably are more someone you'd see is traditionally quite an obviously dangerous person you come across as very Charming charismatic roguish where do you see yourself on that scale do you see yourself as someone who was dangerous or do you see yourself as someone who's just moved from area to area as it occurred um kind of like this a dangerous I suppose what most people see that and you know if somebody was a problem for me would I find the best option to have them killed or not but really there always was a kind of Vestige of that's a failure if you can't think of anything better than to have them killed then then then what are you doing there's a million clever ways of solving your problems and that besides which there's always going to be people you can't kill everybody um not only that who killed the killers that you've got to do the killing you know you know they always say that about the quiet ones and all of that but it was the people who bothered to put up a smoke screen um they're establishing a um later Alibi a courtroom personality but I met him he didn't seem bothered by all of that why would he have him killed and those are the ones that um seem to be more dangerous and if I was such a dangerous person like that I certainly been absolute fool to break from that mold and say otherwise wouldn't it very true David it's great to see you again thank you so much for coming in always a pleasure yeah and I've Got a Feeling we'll be seeing you again at some point as well it's possible it does may cross thank you I'll be like oh my God they're in my head they they know they know that was a song and so they put that song on the radio and it's all everything revolves around me or you know and this happened well sometimes happens today you know I'm I'm thinking of someone in my head someone under there like on the street	group of um safe hackers to someone who pulled off their first thing and then we've jumped to someone who has people working for them and and now is no longer taking the risk themselves now the police are on to you and you're on this desert island well small island and you're thinking about going back into it was this like a turning point in your life in terms of going you know because the other option I suppose was to go straight but were you just more it was that just not an option for you I'd gone to my lawyer Ralph he said look this is what I picked up because I my travel agent had tipped me to a couple of detectives that come in he traveled again while I was in on the phone okay uh actually they're all innocent really yeah you know and and gave him a long list of names um they wanted travel details for and a telephone number which I traced uh to um a private office building which had been rented by state and federal police they were so distrusting of their own they didn't want to even run this thing from um regular police headquarters my lawyer said well what you sure it's you said Ralph look at the list of names there's 30 there I'm 26 of them passports are a lot easier to get back then than there now so you had 26 aliases that you	2	6	4	group of um safe hackers to someone who pulled off their first thing and then we've jumped to someone who has people working for them and and now is no longer taking the risk themselves now the police are on to you and you're on this desert island well small island and you're thinking about going back into it was this like a turning point in your life in terms of going you know because the other option I suppose was to go straight but were you just more it was that just not an option for you I'd gone to my lawyer Ralph he said look this is what I picked up because I my travel agent had tipped me to a couple of detectives that come in he traveled again while I was on the phone okay uh actually they're all innocent really yeah you know and and gave him a long list of names um they wanted travel details for and a telephone number which I traced uh to um a private office building which had been rented by state and federal police they were so distrusting of their own they didn't want to even run this thing from um regular police headquarters my lawyer said well what you sure it's you said Ralph look at the list of names there's 30 there I'm 26 of them passports are a lot easier to get back then than there now so you had 26 aliases that you	well what you sure it's you said Ralph look at the list of names there's 30 there	3,5,6	2,3,4	3	5	6	2	3	4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyZyHHexx7s	4,101	oyZyHHexx7s	2022-12-07 00:00:00	even though I was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off I couldn't get people to go with me I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars [Music] it's great to have you back David obviously we've met before but for anyone who doesn't know who you are for new listeners or new viewers could you give us a brief introduction to what you are famous for well I suppose uh most well known for uh having escaped to prison in Thailand in Bangkok uh the biggest one they have there clong Prim it uh wasn't something I did frivolously I was going to be executed within a couple of weeks so it seemed like a good time to leave okay now um we're going to get into that in a bit more detail but one thing that I remember about you from last time is you're the most incredible talker and we took away the inter the initial interview we've done with you and ended up having to make it into two long episodes because you have a lot of different very colorful uh experiences so do forgive me if I Jimmy us through oh no I can understand that I mean the only place I never talk is in the police station I always like some of my uh work colleagues took um what was it one slap to get them talking but five to shut them up oh okay so let's go right back to the beginning um you were born in the UK and then I believe you emigrated to Australia well um it was all a family thing yes I was born in basewater in London I spent the first few years of my life then uh there but my parents broke up divorced and I went with my mother to Australia with my older sister so I don't have any really very early memories of London apart from some old eight millimeter movie footage of me learning to walk in Hyde Park my dad was waving a five pound note in front of my face and I was making every effort to grab it I continued that behavior for many many years afterwards returned to Australia um finished some schooling um got really contrasting jobs I worked in an adult Agency for a while um but also before that I was got a job in a cinema now it was the and under literally an underground place but it was there that I got introduced to a bunch of crooks um some of the girls there had boyfriends that I used to run down with um strange boxes or bits of money or fur coats and then wink at me bolt out the back door pursued by often policemen undercover ones of course whom we'd misdirect somewhere but that Circle they were um safe crackers and they really didn't trust Outsiders and didn't much like the sound of me but because of I demonstrated a couple of things by being look everybody was really very anti-authority then I I don't mean hostile but for people now they they wouldn't have experienced that in the uh late 60s 70s we were so snotty and arrogant we really thought we were going to change the world and that um the laws were all nothing and the way to change them was to break them well that was the kind of vanity we had so um when I got to know the safe crackers uh better there was something really interesting I mean I didn't like the idea you know stealing things seemed a bit tacky but on the other hand they kind of all needed the money from the from their backgrounds and everything but that wasn't so much the the interest it was the technicalities of getting into these things okay um they used to drill through the top um having anchored it with the drill with clamps and and put a kind of little lens inside a cystoscope used in medicine and watch the the wheels turning around this is the old kind of old-fashioned Hollywood style it was yeah and um behind the safe were three discs and you had to line them up and they'd once they got in they'd take the door with them so that the opposition the safe makers wouldn't know how they'd got in and it was a a constant battle between the manufacturers and them because they've come across new safes which had Special Metals in it that was mixed like a a crunchy nut bar very hard metals very soft ones so the drill bit would slip on them snap and you got a sense that this was almost like a game where um they would try something then try to beat them and they were very loyal to each other um they they never spoke out of school as it were um when I got involved with them I'd only have to if I had trouble I don't have to make one phone call and people would appear out of nowhere and I thought yeah this this is kind of better than the treacherous boys school that I I grew up in and how old were you at this point um 19 years old 19. so were you thinking you were making a conscious decision to move into illegal activities or at that point in time and at that point in the world did it feel like more of a kind of a bit of roguish fun would you say I was drawn to it anyway because it was interesting and um I didn't really have a lot of fear I think sometimes what we do or don't do is depending on how scary it seems yeah agreed um I was born with a low resting heart rate as they say you know if it's below 70 you're a risk taker I don't know why that is when the safe crackers retired they put some of their money into growing little crops of weed and so on but profit margin is is only through importing because like the price difference is cheap in the source countries expensive where it sells so because they couldn't do it they were almost throwing it down like a challenge like we don't know anybody who can do this and I thought well I traveled a lot um I didn't think it was going to be impossible um I thought the odds were in my phone and I looked it up I went to the library and sort of researched it a bit and where were you thinking which country Well they um they were very keen to get some um hashish from India or Nepal or somewhere okay I could see um it's bulky and there's packing problems so um they funded me and off I sailed now the operation my first operation was so deplorably bad I'm barely 20 years old I my cunning plan which involved a big piece of exported Machinery which had weights in it so the weights would come out the cash would go in it would weigh the same being returned and it was a piece of Television equipment or something that went South immediately when I didn't realize that I would have to pay a huge deposit in duty to even bring it in as a demo machine so forget that I ended up in short meeting a guy in a money exchange section of a bank I was there because I ran out and I had to send asking for more from the boys and I met him and he wasn't involved in any of this but he soon became that just he managed to get me six kilos of hash I took the 1952 ancient Grundig radio from his parents house the Shelf there guttered the thing like a fish wrapped it up and he had to get cling film in those days think of this before you travel arriving with a suitcase full of cling film doesn't look good I suppose but uh wedged it in there and then just flew back to Sydney now you can imagine what happened well just before we get on to what happened you know one thing that strikes me is what year was would this have been this was uh 77 77 so it's amazing think that back then if someone was going to India for the first time now they could go on Google Maps they could research it or they could find out who they could find phone numbers contacts they could be put in contact with people before they've even set off whereas you must have at that age at that time been going in slightly blind you know touching down in a foreign country that you didn't know well no contacts was that not quite daunting well what was more um troubling with um how everything would fail and then I'd have to um you know come up with another plan what context somebody I knew um um there were no bank robber who joined the hare krishnas and fled to India right and I had his name and and the ashram in Delhi where where he was was supposed to have been uh I didn't really catch up with him on that trip but okay sure so so then you get back to Australia with your radio that is now full to the brim with and I get stopped you you did get stopped okay I could stop because uh I'm I'm on a British passport um and it's the only trip I've ever done and I'm that age I'd stop me oh fatherly type was at the Customs desk now the the systems were different in those days um it was Sydney too which is very and certainly was very relaxed back then right he opened the suitcase uh there was nothing in there except a pair of socks there's a towel wrapping up this massive radio which he lifted up so it was buckled at the sides little red packets poking out oh it smelled like a hedgehog for a patchouliers okay not much of a disguise um he let me go he uh put it back looked around to make sure that none of his workmates were watching him being so soft um and then turned to me and said you're going back there you're going to do this again [Music] all right you can take your we'll call it a radio shall we get out of here what he thought I realized later was that he didn't want the whole grammar of the day arresting me filling out papers and it would have been a a long time plus I guess being a dad he thought if I he's obviously an idiot you're right if I send him into Gladiator Academy or it wasn't really like that in those days but certainly contact center um the prison what am I doing um well I guess uh he was hopeful you know I whilst out of there must have smuggling me but I experienced then what um I got years later which was kind of a real Downer after you know having got nowhere with The Hare krishnas and and cultivated the shoeshine boys and had my money stolen at Amex uh by some Scallywags in Delhi all sorts of Little Adventures over there in India and nonetheless made it it's kind of like that's all there is to it I I didn't really want to give it to anyone um sort of felt like you didn't have a big moment of no a bit of money that came earlier that's handy right uh I paid back what I owed and settled up for for the next thing so but once that was started when you sorry I interrupted you go oh I was just going to say it to finish it even though they'd funded me the guys were very surprised to see me back but at all at all oh you made it oh because some of them say oh you'll just run away with it uh even if that's what he's doing who knows what he's doing you know and then I could see sitting around you can imagine there's like a table full of well like three guys and then a kind of Darkness shrouded over that room I thought uh it's not valuable enough to kill me you know what what is this mood why did you bring that well that's what you've been talking about yeah you could have loaded that with cane or smack or something you guys we say nothing but terrible things about a class or heavy drugs that don't want to know about it right and I could read then that wait a minute there we're all might be guys together and having fun getting into the safe and whatnot but there was a kind of different it was something a very strong lesson I'd have to be thoughtful about that um there could be times where things didn't work out not necessarily that my safety was at risk I didn't see it that way but I knew that there were Ruthless People right okay yeah so you got an insight into a mindset that had been a bit below the surface it was there I just chose not to see it but um I then went on to you know refine everything and Vary everything and then did you after that first time did you were you still working sort of for them or did you immediately well when you wake up on your own when things um I picked up and there was enough money around out of uh out of strategy rather than just being a nice guy I gave my partners a kind of thank you bonus from the next thing that I did but I did that all myself right so it was almost like a yeah separation and I wanted to go back to the my hippie friends anyway they were a little less it wasn't that they were scary but but that didn't last because they were maybe friends might be all right but they will certainly careless and stupid but from from that point onwards after that initial Journey was that you then into the world of smuggling I thought this won't last forever you only need one setback and that changes it I probably made quite a lot of money and I could have got out but and I should have gotta you know I have couriers a leak from one of the the couriers brought the police to me and here was the problem with it it was at first I scattered now I was married to my first wife then clearly Italian girl her dad had restaurants I grabbed her I had a secret drawer with extra passports in it some money ended up four plane Journeys later in um off the Bahamas had the skipper of a day rent yacht and take me out to an island and nobody had ever been on before it was empty sat there on a towel I thought hmm the level of surveillance I had means it's quite a big operation they're funded and I checked with a lawyer before the bigger the money they spent the more determined they'll be stay away or go back I mean I don't know why would anybody do this uh well I wasn't broke um I didn't have to there was no pressure on me the more I went through the problems the more attractive the whole thing is uh she didn't like it much well again do you think because it was a puzzle to be solved because um arrogance really we've gone from basically someone who was kind of mildly interested in making a group of people meeting a group of um safe hackers to someone who pulled off their first thing and then we've jumped to someone who has people working for them and and now is no longer taking the risk themselves now the police are on to you and you're on this desert island well small island and you're thinking about going back into it was this like a turning point in your life in terms of going you know because the other option I suppose was to go straight but were you just more it was that just not an option for you I'd gone to my lawyer Ralph he said look this is what I picked up because I my travel agent had tipped me to a couple of detectives that come in he traveled again while I was in on the phone okay uh actually they're all innocent really yeah you know and and gave him a long list of names um they wanted travel details for and a telephone number which I traced uh to um a private office building which had been rented by state and federal police they were so distrusting of their own they didn't want to even run this thing from um regular police headquarters my lawyer said well what you sure it's you said Ralph look at the list of names there's 30 there I'm 26 of them passports are a lot easier to get back then than there now so you had 26 aliases that you were traveling on yeah right okay um and I described where they were he said David they are funded well they're not bear this in mind but although I what they won't get me with anything they're funded you think they're going to walk away after a year and say oh sorry boss you spend a million dollars and uh nothing doing they don't work like that but this is how stubborn I was I thought because he said the only thing you can do is disappear for at least a couple of years and then you can come back if that's what you want and of course I had justifications for it I thought okay I'll I'll build up a bit more money and then I'll disappear but um it was only after things went terribly badly that I realized I shouldn't play like this anymore what it was they um because the challenge just kept coming so now so did you go back to Australia I went back to Australia and and when I retired within three months right but they weren't waiting for you to arrest you or no no they wanted they wanted something solid okay [Music] um I won't go into the long machinations of it all but um somebody we knew uh was getting things from a Thai Courier and he got arrested he sold us out to the police so that that The Courier would now come to us and I always have some solid evidence right he would bring things but we got away with that because that was another challenge but the police got tired of all this arrested me no drugs of course so it was a difficult case the worst kind of case is that where there's no solid evidence and in a way it's better to go to court where you've got a Smoking Gun and a dead body on the ground because at least you know where you are but where there's nothing tangible and it's conspiracies and this was a huge trial six months long what is that 119 Witnesses 6 000 pages of uh telephone intercept massive thing won't made it worse too and I think this was um would change things for me um the pressure was put on for confessions but it'd be silly to confess and you can't confess on somebody else's behalf can you that's not nice um lots of the family were arrested even my mother was taken and it went oh wow just to put pressure on uh did she know what you did oh she had an idea right okay I mean I used to have bin liners full of money I'd leave behind the fridge yeah you don't get that in the cinema do you not done not a very good day you know uh because they arrested so many people now when they arrested our wives and my business partner Michael his wife just had a baby it was we had to do a deal here I didn't want to but I was going to say I said to Michael look I know you don't like it but we'll play to it get the girls out of trouble we'll Escape that's a good challenge that way [Music] um but unfortunately um the intelligence section put an arsonist Informer in with the girls to get some information her fire was lit uh burnt down the women's prison and my wife and my business partner's wife was were killed uh that's awful and so the Informer that they put in there yeah why did they pick an arsonist for Daniel writer name was I don't know why I remember that after 40 years God so that's quite a big that was oh and and just uh to make things worse the story put about town to scare the careers into talking because they wouldn't speak was that we'd we were killing off all the witnesses and starting with our own family where does that come from um we ended up in a super max prison nightmarish electronic zoo with two inch glass and electronic doors and insane inmates held 48 death rate 27 people a year died in that little supermax going to court in Chains with a SWAT team taking it it was so so much Michael fell to pieces he was just a wreck he didn't make it uh he survived the jail but died when he got out the only way I could survive all of that was to strip away everything I you know I found myself in the supermax concrete everything's concrete the bed everything there's no everything's still just with the tape player from my lure listening to the the tapes the bug tapes the microphones in my house I could play back my life for the last six months clearly you're moving from room to room taking telephone calls she was crying about something I didn't know what I never know and David that's gone immerse yourself in the worst that they have you will not survive this otherwise trial sort of went not so good acquitted of most things but convicted enough 10 years difficult imprisonment but I the only way I could deal with it was to say did I want revenge that was more my fault I brought this about I got her in there I mean a family of a very kind to me about it considering I wouldn't be but it doesn't matter in Chains and super Mech strip it all away it is nothing everyone is a potential enemy everything it just nothing mattered win the day win the night I mean this is a place we had to fill in a book to get some toilet paper the showers were in front of them in a glass box um if you went on a visit they'd zip you up and lock you in a suit so you had no pockets there was after that and her death I felt like there was nothing that could affect me you're wrong about these things you know we're human but I got out and they were there they even visited me to say we'll be on you when you get out the police yeah we enjoyed the old days didn't you yeah I said pretending you know and just to make the point that they were there when I got out um I I'd done a whole lot of Woodwork in the prison in the last place I was at carving intricate things making these really great trick Chinese boxes with beeswax they intercepted the van that was taking it from the prison back to my house and smashed it all to pieces I put it in a box just to say don't think that we will never be here we can do what we want so I decided to leave the country I was um how old am I by then let's work it out yeah uh I started all this Mischief when I was about 18 got arrested at 22. 23 uh um 16 years 17 years either under surveillance or in bad prisons got out and I'm under surveillance again um so how old so you're number 37 about 37. so that's already you know that's a big chunk of Life there but you've lost quite a lot of it to prison or surveillance well at no point now were you like okay and I wasn't a normal person uh really when I got out because of the experience of prison I'd already stripped most of Myself Away to deal with the death of the Superman yeah and and watching people be burnt to death in the place which was frequent somebody had contact glue pulled all over him and then satellite oh God Gods came in and the other one's standing there with a Tire swinging it around to make sure to let him burn let him burn Jesus Barry's name was testicles swollen like apples but black okay he died two hours later in hospital anyway um that was regular account to deal with that I'd already strip things away so when I got a little apartment when I got out and my mother had arranged things for me when they were there when they'd leave rude messages on my answer machine when they'd be behind me everywhere I thought all right I remember this David it never ends if you want to survive go back to the way you were you know in in the super max Anything Can Happen anytime but I didn't want to live like that um I got a fresh passport and most elaborate means um I could spend a week explaining how that came into existence but I went to Thailand to pick up some money I had three days there it was just before Christmas I left at that time on purpose so that they maybe I thought maybe it's their weak point that they want to have families in their life just at Christmas I've parked my mum's car and and left the keys somewhere for her nobody knew were you not meant to leave the country no no no licenses oh I see we're just going to take a minute here to talk about a sponsor of this show which is manscaped we were sent a package to try out by manscaped but Conor one of our producers is already a fan of the brand I believe yeah absolutely I've been using manscape for a little while now and Ben as you know it's that time of year people start asking you what you want for Christmas and I would say that a great gift for a man especially one that might have everything is the manscape performance package 4.0 so what's in that so you get the lawnmower 4.0 electric trimmer you get some anti-chafe boxer shorts which I can vouch for as well as a couple of other grooming products that smell great fantastic well it sounds like a five-star review from uconnor absolutely so Connor you were talking about the performance package there's loads of other great gift ideas such as the hygiene bundle all available at manscape.com com and all gifts that men will genuinely love to receive this Christmas if you are a listener of this podcast you get 20 off and free shipping all you have to do is go to manscape.com and use the code minutes that's manscape.com m-i-n-u-t-e-s minutes um so why are we doing that the risk is it worth it I didn't want to play anymore right I wanted to uh see if I could have a something resembling like a a real life just to find some corner of the world plan was to to return to London and oh so you were leaving forever I'm leaving forever okay I see nobody knew it um I had a couple of hundred thousand in Thailand I thought um which I returned to pick up um now I suppose people say this Crooks always say this most unusual circumstances led to my arrest well they were but then again they always are aren't they or you wouldn't be telling the story or you wouldn't have been arrested but um the USDA was involved lots of people lots of players uh no real drugs are found uh they did an airport sweep and listed me up for like an ounce of something and a false passport or two the money I had just disappeared into pockets but those when I arrived there I felt so free I knew this identity was good I just like floating on air really I slipped out of my protective mode you know that when we stick to the plan and all right you don't want to leave I should have even stayed there for six months just get some sensible view of the world but I I didn't uh and as I went to the airport I could see they were all around me and I melted back into the crowd and disappeared again I thought well that serves me right for changing that attitude I'd had from back in super max and I just glaze over concentrate on the details which I needed to do because when I went to make a phone call later at the travel agency uh waiting it was so depressing being thrown into the Thai prison and I had some idea what they'd be like um people I'd known had been arrested there I knew this much it never won a case you never get out well you get out and what were they arresting you for was it the the uh the passport um what did the the the money wasn't I mean what did they leave 4 000 or something like that right and there are airports we put um I saw the guy walking in with it in a plastic bag you know whatever people throw on the floor before they go through security there was a bit of hash this usual bits of weed but what they really wanted was um this 25 grams of heroin because that would finish me off a policeman um Australian one said was that yours yeah yeah sure it was he said I didn't think so what would you be carrying around that for I mean if it was 10 kilos I might understand but but that was enough the death penalty and was it yours no no no so where where would that come from if you do they do a sweep every afternoon at five o'clock they get tons of it right I get you know nervous passengers go up and then they change their minds and they throw it in the toilet too and were they just did do you think they believed it was yours or do you think they were just going this is we need to give him this bit no no I think they were using it hoping to that would be good to hold and maybe they could get something else find out what I was up to who I was seeing because I had met um somebody who's whose uncle was a big player right so there was there was I think they were optimistic there might be more Camp come out of it but but there wasn't but what difference did it make and I wasn't really worried about um those drugs or the death penalty I wanted to die anyway frankly my first escape plans from there had this I imagine getting out to find the Privacy to kill myself right I wanted to go to the dusa Tony Hotel I knew Which floor and where to get onto the roof I'd taken photographs from there many years before um they were you simply couldn't get a moment's piece dormitories with 150 guys in them screaming all night um we can't even take a crap in peace in the Thai prison We're Not Afraid though of what killing myself well no I mean I don't know being brutalized by the guards or the inmates so well I knew enough about Thailand to to know that it was a little more comic than than bad there were very bad things happen they used to um they've beaten people a couple of people get beaten to death every day there but it's a very big prison we have to get that in proportion I only wish they wouldn't use the food trolley to take the dead bodies out because um you know they don't clean them up um and could you speak the language or were you quite it was a quite different communication uh not really uh and the few languages that uh pitch up in my travels I always found that even if you know them it's better to pretend you don't okay um because they'll talk about you behind your back you know certainly didn't live it on there was I I just couldn't see any point I'd gone to such elaborate precautions on this trip um it just shouldn't have happened and I even got away from the airport and still it happened oh all that confidence that I'll figure a way out I didn't care anymore I just had enough um and I remember seeing an old guy there if you had to go to court they put change on you and um you'd line up on the ground now this old guy I was looking at him because I don't know why a big soundtrack went past he had the presence of mind to push his head under that sand truck and oh it twisted it around popped like a watermelon being dropped on the ground oh my God guys very annoyed told the trustees to get that thing away out of sight was that nice thing called it I thought you Brave bastard you yeah you've got the guts to do that was it not quite a disturbing thing to witness no it was shocking because if you haven't seen it kind of thing up close and I happen to be looking um it was uh but that that's how I felt about it but I was saved In The End by a con man and people say a lot of bad things about economy they do yes they do and they uh you can't be trusted uh they are rottenness and they will cheat you just because they're the Scorpion that's in their nature uh but sometimes they're just what you need and this rather smooth um Bostonian American um who spoke Thai and really knew his way around and I you know I thought the somewhere in this huge prison there'd be an enclave of rich and corrupt foreigners with loads of money and there'd be luxuries it wasn't there was nobody of any importance in there you know a couple of big sacrifices had been made but um a couple of very rich policemen who were in the hospital in intensive care but other than that it was it was just um the people who reached the absolute bottom Drifters in Asia who did run after run and then got sacrificed to the machine they'd get about four jobs a big Syndicate there operating careers had run four times bang they'd shot them to the police they'd be gone oh God they will turn told the same story and it was Joe it was this guest house it was such and such identical and um and and at this point had you been sentenced to death had you received oh no no no I I was trying to avoid that yeah once I came to my senses because the the Boston con had so many wonderful schemes medical thing to get me bail and know some way of a escape with a go to court I get snatched from there I had villains come over and and scope out the court too because there was a way I thought of getting out of there from the lift that took you up to the the building uh snatched from the middle as you go down changed into a different set of clothes but they all got scared thing about um some of our most loved uh and fearless villains they're pretty good in the local manner but you throw them into a place like that where people carry machine guns and shoot at will just for the hell of it not so confident they like the upper edge of being snakes um so I couldn't convince anybody to really help and it was just as well um and two and a half years passed there in this prison it's a long time it was I sort of perked up a little bit pulled myself together started exercising um got a couple of ATM cards over hadn't my favorite god um he was in charge of the the building bought myself a room renovated um so you had you bought a room within the prison that was just for you rented that's rented right you know and is that an official thing that you're allowed to do right there are places in the world where it's official right but you had an influx of money that you could pay for special treats you could survive there on um less than 500 pounds a month and be king oh wow was this the 70s or the 80s now by the way we're into um 90 495 19 the 495 because what's reported about you is that during the 80s you were a multi-millionaire um is that accurate um now what do we call a multi-millionaires a young halfway with a million and a quarter on a glass coffee table and looks around the living room and thinks I've got to get a sofa one of these days um oh goes to the car auctions in the morning buys a big yank tank with a 427 Chevy engine in it um drives it around makes his own car parking spaces you know we're smashing the front in backing the other one pushing the other cars out of the way um oh stoned off my head most of the time uh if I wasn't stunned enough I'd take a few mandracks just to colludes icing on the cake um so I didn't take care of the money and the money didn't take care of me so I guess I'm like the reason I the reason I asked was because it must have been quite a stark change going from a very rich existence to basically somewhere where you basically couldn't pay for anything initially and it was a very poor existence but I guess from what you're saying there it's not like you felt like you were Rich at the time um I've made that contrast a few times when I had my first big arrest I couldn't as I was in a cold near lightless cell of blue stone and horse hair mattress about two inches thick and wrecking a piss I would think back to the night before when I had my important to tell in huge bed and Irish linen sheets and swimming pool out there and um and we had to kind of shake off the contrast but that rubber banding must must have been hard to take because it's you're going from basically the aspiration of almost everyone where you're talking about just buying cars outright and having a swimming pool to a piss stinking bed you know it must be it was you know it's odd thing about it was providing I could see a way out a work a way out I didn't so much mind oh okay um I really trained myself to expect my whatever world I built up and and this happened several times I've done it five times had a new identity New Life new surroundings even new people and dang they're gone and every time it got worse um and there was even Thailand was desperately important because even though it was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it um you know I was somebody that nobody minded killing um so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah there's nothing like the prospect of being executed by a machine gun which is the way they did it God is that what it would have been wow yeah you know oh they'd have three guards all with a bit of string on the trigger and they'd all pull it once so that none of them could be condemned in the Buddhist sense of sin oh they don't even actually right I see it caused the bullet that finished you off oh I see so you're in the Thai prison you've been sentenced to uh rather unpleasant death penalty um how did you start coming up with this famous plan for escaping um desperation it was the last plan that looked like it was going to work um there were probably about 20 plans considered um everything from being the prison held I've since found out it holds 22 000 people oh my God in 10 sub prisons uh there's a women's section there's a young offenders there's a special reminder a drug unit all of that um just a wild place it has everything it even had a prisoner-run shop where you could extract you could borrow money against your account and cash anyway um one of the plans involved being welded into a VW Combi van in the prisons Auto Workshop which would be picked up early Monday morning and I'd be driven out and that another one was um there were several courtroom ones and you couldn't just pay your way out no no it's just you could pay to have a mobile phone which in those days was a rare thing but they were around um you could pay for a bottle of clong uh whiskey you could pay I'm sure you could pay to get a a girl in your room if you could work out what a room was that a whole section full of ladyboys there and got a building full of them they used to open it up on Saturdays so um you could pay for anything but not to leave they couldn't cover that and they couldn't trust each other you would need 25 30 different guards paid off and and the gods of visitors I mean too many guides no that wouldn't work and they looked at it as a kind of betrayal only if I saw two escapes attempts there one group of uh straight kids and a Singaporean got out of their cell incredibly turned themselves into the sleeping God when they'd all lied to each other about what they didn't have you know the ropes and ways out because they're it was so outraged that they'd spoiled the guys jobs they beat them to death slowly tortured them over three months to death having put them in little code lockers the soy they call them drag them out in elephant chains every day and batter them senseless uh internal bleeding usually did it um look I've got a bowl of rice and a painting to poo in that was it um even the water was it was just too horrible so if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off even my Swedish friends Sten the Viking he backed out at the last minute I couldn't get people to go with me all the other plants had fallen to bits because they depended on other people I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars and I needed equipment for that and here's a really important point I guess as bad as this world is you've got to try to find good people if you ask somebody if you asked your friend yeah and and you're finished you'll manage to get a phone call and say friend it's been here um I need you to get um I don't know four hacksaw blades and cut them into the dowel rods of a of a poster and then paint it all up and send it in a huge package with this that cable ties gaffer tape but disguise all that how many people are going to do it turn around wouldn't believe it Ben called me what his neck yeah he's screwed but anyway he wouldn't believe but he wants me to do this that now people don't do it but Michael on the other hand our business partner wouldn't even let me explain he hadn't heard from me in 18 months he said David don't explain I'm sure we could get cut off tell me the important part now where do I have to be and what do I have to bring no that's a friend um and so I've always tried to do the same for the others that I've known like that um but um I did get the equipment together that I needed and everything um about escapes from a big prison is not like your hope it's going to be you know I turned it out walked around the streets and it had streets inside it um and timed it with my trusty Casio and it was so I knew roughly how long it would take to get me but the night's a different world I'm a prisoner I'm only used to noise during the day even the fan chopping around in the Cell at night it's so quiet everything I did squeaked and rattled and twisted I came across a panel that had to be a nail had to come out and that and they'll protest it and scream their wrench out of the way it took um uh seven or eight worlds uh sorry seven or eight walls to cross over I say worlds because they really were every building was a different thing and I got lost and I went past the terminal AIDS Ward that building hundreds of guys all die and I could smell it before I got there because this necrotic Rotting Flesh and I couldn't resist looking in I'm carrying this huge long ladder made out of bamboo poles and fake picture frames gaffer taped along the center [Music] um and I looked up and I saw all these little faces in the Moonlight wrapped in so much pain and despair they didn't have the energy to cry out to the guards if they'd been in any other prisoners they would have the trustees there were absolute scum of the earth had whistled little uniforms sell the drugs one day and the rest of the guys for it the next all of that um and it was only by um well I only got to the outer wall by Dawn and if somebody had been with me I wouldn't have made it either you wouldn't have no imagine I've taken all night to get there and at each point where this something was unexpected I've had to dream up something and I get a little basic toolkit and I sometimes I'd have to sacrifice part of my ladder to make a hook to pull down barbed wire and the technique for using the thing was awkward you had to prop it walk up drop down the other side so you're twisting over the walls like that manual is entirely barbed wire so I had to go underneath it covered in mud the the last one was really too high and there was a Mars bar Creek the the moat that ran around I did you know if I was with somebody else we'd be arguing wouldn't we oh Spa Creek oh it was full of turds bombing around it was caught out of the sewer yeah you did ask um illustrative okay we're just gonna take a quick break from the show to talk about a sponsor of this episode better help better help is an online Counseling Service which connects people to therapists and counselors I'm joined by one of our producers bryony is counseling something you've had experience with do you know what it's interesting because when I was growing up the same kind of challenges in life would happen but people wouldn't necessarily go to therapy or talk about therapy and I feel like since uh maybe my late teens early 20s people are starting to go to therapy and talking about it and I have definitely used it in my life and it's been massively beneficial same and do you because I think one of the things that people often mistake they think it's just for big things yeah but what's the other experience of that thing I think life always throws you know small challenges and large challenges and sometimes the big things need talking about but actually you know starting a new school or starting a new job can rile up that same level of anxiety and it's just really helpful to be able to talk to someone about it who is completely impartial not involved in your life and just kind of a safe space I guess to just say whatever you want to say you completely agree as the world's largest therapy service better help as much 3 million people with professionally licensed and vetted therapists available 100 online plus it's affordable just fill out a brief questionnaire to match with a therapist if things aren't clicking you can easily switch to a new therapist anytime it couldn't be simpler no waiting rooms no traffic no endless searching for the right therapist learn more and save 10 of your first month at betterhelp.com minutes with that's betterhelp help help.com minutes with um now there was one way of oh Beyond marsburg create this a foot and a half of land before this huge huge wall you've got to get a ladder that's too heavy to carry too imbalanced to do anything with but you've got a bit of rope how do you get it to the other side of Mars bar which has all got tangled barb wire in that so it'll catch get it in place and up against the wall when you've got no ground to to walk on now there is a way and uh I guess people have to listen to me describe it either to you or in my book okay fine but too long to tell here sure but um I could see the glow of dawn as I got to the top which had electricity running through it too just to make it the top of the wall dead yeah yeah wow but um my friend who um was in there a bit of a technician is to belong to the anarchist Society in in Britain how would you belong to a society that has rules when you anyway putting that aside he did tell me that it would only be 240 volts but to be careful um and just managed to get over that and because the original plan was to um oh there was an outer moat beyond that of 20 meters I had my clothes ready to go into a plastic bag swim the moat but just as well I didn't um because all it turned out all the guards houses were over the other side of that moat this would not be a place to go but I cleaned myself up threw some clothes on and I one of the jobs that I didn't do but I was supposed to be doing was working in the Umbrella Factory so I paid a local boy to do it um I've got a pop-up umbrella from there I thought you know you really get a perspective about I want to just simple discrimination but being an outsider a foreigner the way sometimes people feel picked upon you know we were called the white trash and we were in in Chains and everything so I knew I had to cover my face in the popular did it and I managed to get to a place where a passport was hidden and to the airport and still had a working ATM card to get me out of the country into Singapore so did you end up with the umbrella did you walk out the front gate yeah I did I had some long trousers on now in their prisoners are not allowed to wear them so I had some khaki pants I thought they might as I walked around the the narrow path to the front gate it's still mote but a little Bridge I thought another figure it's a guard arriving late and sneaking in and I did I felt like Ripley an alien uh looking at thinking lucky lucky this is where it all ends doesn't it and I'm thinking that every moment and looking up and there was just enough light rain to justify the umbrella yeah I would learn later that was actually the not a rain from the gods but the spittle of their laughter because they had worse things in mind for me later on I mean it's so it's you know how many people are you aware how many people had escaped from that prison up to that point was it some every year or was it very infrequent none um the ties sometimes ran away when they were doing the gardens in Chains outside but Escape From Within um I'd known of in 20 years people could recall two attempts no foreigners um and they didn't trust the foreigners that's why they put you on the third floor right quite rightly yes and and how long had it taken you from like the beginning of the uh I started cutting at um 11 45 I paid a lot to get a light switch in there normally the lights are on all the time um okay and I said to my favorite guard oh yeah Ponting or whatever his name was I can't sleep with that thing I'll put a light switch in um um now they didn't say it as corruption or bribe taking they thought I'm doing this nice guy a favor and I'll be lucky because of it that's a very big thing over there you know if I get caught I'm unlucky then so they can batter me to death I mean sure it's kind of self-justifies any action that a human being might take so he started cutting around eight for 11 45 11 45 okay it's quite close through one bar by two in the morning oh God stencia listen we'll go on the next note I looked around and Kevin the American from Hawaii I didn't even know this was happening uh Mirage the Indian I know he's going to talk the next morning he was kakaria LA pantaloni right in the cell never mind holding out and not saying anything he would have it would have been finished I never would have made it and I guess I could have seen the missing bars potentially but I learned later on I actually caught up with somebody who was in there Scottish guy um he was there for selling ecstasy to the Two well-off Sons and Daughters of wealthy policemen anyway um he remembers they the guards couldn't figure that I'd left oh um he said David they ran around the the prison calling out your name it was Daniel Westlake while I was there Daniel Daniel they okay that somebody drew their attention to the cut bar in there yeah my Scottish friend said they the gods wanted they thought that okay he's got out he's angry about something uh Daniel but he's not actually he'll never get out he couldn't get it they never found the the ladder down the front wall until much much later so for um uh uh only one of them said oh we better check the airport they sent a couple of guys down there um just a little bit late and you were gone by then only just and remember man you've got a passport from a Chinese connection that you barely know but kind of like the cut of his jib but are you gonna put your life on the line on that and at every moment you're handing it over you know like the look of it yeah they don't like the look of it they're typing it up and you're thinking they got onto the computer have they done that bit uh have they entered my arrival was this I knew it was freshly stolen or sold off was only a few weeks old uh I mean not new was had only gone missing a few weeks earlier so it was still good but very nerve-wracking and I didn't have a photo I had to use my old um uh radio operators license that had a photograph in it to get reproduced into this thing so it was a bit grainy um and even on the plane it was delay and takeoff oh God and a mumbling Captain oh sorry um we we have a thing with one passenger I just asked what thing exactly soon enough thwomp doors to manual oh but I've got an hour you know looking at this passport I don't like it get to Singapore but I make it through so you got to Singapore yeah but you did end up going back to prison not a Thai prison but a different prison he's suggesting uh I did something wrong well I'm hoping you're going to tell me um no well okay uh I didn't stay in Singapore long because um I sat there in the hotel room unable to digest food not prepared by my own cook sure I in the hotel room in Singapore I realized you could work out who had left that day if they'd flown my air by simply going to the airport and children you work it out yourselves at home you check everybody who's left separate the foreigners hmm go a step further let's keep the Canadian and American the British the Australian New Zealand all the English-speaking passport Society um just to you know reduce the numbers take those names check with the embassies any of these names belong to lost or stolen passports that have been reported yeah five of them because that's Bangkok you know not the only Mischief maker there but nonetheless um they probably knew I could be who was I Charles McClintock hmm sorry Charles I had to borrow your passport but it was an essential cause but you're not wanted anymore of course are you no but I did get an unwelcome knock at the door some years ago uh by the police who um would it be to go excuse me Westminster Court known for the terrorist cases extradition or parking fights wow I'd lift the car anywhere lately so it was going to be one of the other two and it was extradition to Thailand I fought that case for two years and um it was difficult um but managed to effectively win in the end so the ties have dropped that one and I can't be taken back there I'm not wanted anywhere um I can nobody can do what they want but um I I'm not I haven't got anything pending I'm not in business I'm a bit cautious I even got sent something in the the mail a few years ago and I thought it was some gift from some halfway ambitious wombat in in Pakistan sending me a bit of dope thinking oh yeah there's a gift you might like that connection made no I mean people had my address all around the world ever since Danny Dyer um it turned out to be more complicated than that but um very dangerous for me to walk into a courtroom so I don't even imagine you're me and knock at the door oh here's something for you Ben you don't like the look of it you refuse it you're in court no matter why did you refuse that was it your name no you was up The Jig was up proof ladies and gentlemen oh you accept it ah you accepted it proof ladies and gentlemen wife saying to me Jeanette and whom I met in Pakistan years ago and she was there to fish out her husband on a two-ton hash deal he didn't make it anyway um she said throw the thing away I'm thinking in court again ladies and gentlemen he threw the stuff away I can't win so very cautious about all that kind of stuff um fair enough but I take it you won't be going for a holiday to Thailand anytime soon I didn't think so okay so how many do you know off the top of your head of your life how many years of your life have you spent in prison ultimately I did add it up once I'm 66 now and I suppose I've spent um but 22 years the thing that occurs to me and I met you before and I thought the same thing is like you obviously extremely intelligent extremely resourceful it can't be well but well anyway but do you regret the choices you made in terms of do you see those 22 years in prison as something you had no control over it's just the way the dice rolled or do you see them as a mistake on your part um worse than a mistake mistake suggest you didn't know uh where you were going wrong I was taking those steps into uh of a precipice that I'd defied there is no gravity I said I said I will work out something before I hit the ground um when I was It was kind of in stages when I was young it was just arrogance and and showing off and later on when everything was destroyed it was kind of I'd scraped away all of my life and would just go on um then in the third stage it was escaping away from places rebuilding up and being weakened every time it was taken away again um and do I regret it yeah I'm sure I um no you know some people say oh yeah but David just smuggled everything on Earth you scumbag you you know um think of the lives you've destroyed and the people you've heard ah and I go to start to explain that it's not quite black and white uh I mean I've had drug habits myself that I've carelessly allowed um but I thought what's the point anything I say we just sound like self-justification so well don't listen to me then you know but things that have happened that have taught me a lot it's interesting you say that because one of a lot of the comments on our well on the first video we did a lot of the comments where people saying someone needs to make a movie about this guy but a lot of the other comments were people saying he's so charismatic and likable but he must be a really dangerous person to have been involved with all these worlds for so long and um we've interviewed a couple of drug smugglers and I would say they're the ones that I've met have been the ones that probably are more someone you'd see is traditionally quite an obviously dangerous person you come across as very Charming charismatic roguish where do you see yourself on that scale do you see yourself as someone who was dangerous or do you see yourself as someone who's just moved from area to area as it occurred um kind of like this a dangerous I suppose what most people see that and you know if somebody was a problem for me would I find the best option to have them killed or not but really there always was a kind of Vestige of that's a failure if you can't think of anything better than to have them killed then then then what are you doing there's a million clever ways of solving your problems and that besides which there's always going to be people you can't kill everybody um not only that who killed the killers that you've got to do the killing you know you know they always say that about the quiet ones and all of that but it was the people who bothered to put up a smoke screen um they're establishing a um later Alibi a courtroom personality but I met him he didn't seem bothered by all of that why would he have him killed and those are the ones that um seem to be more dangerous and if I was such a dangerous person like that I certainly been absolute fool to break from that mold and say otherwise wouldn't it very true David it's great to see you again thank you so much for coming in always a pleasure yeah and I've Got a Feeling we'll be seeing you again at some point as well it's possible it does may cross thank you I'll be like oh my God they're in my head they they know they know that was a song and so they put that song on the radio and it's all everything revolves around me or you know and this happened well sometimes happens today you know I'm I'm thinking of someone in my head someone under there like on the street	were traveling on yeah right okay um and I described where they were he said David they are funded well they're not bear this in mind but although I what they won't get me with anything they're funded you think they're going to walk away after a year and say oh sorry boss you spend a million dollars and uh nothing doing they don't work like that but this is how stubborn I was I thought because he said the only thing you can do is disappear for at least a couple of years and then you can come back if that's what you want and of course I had justifications for it I thought okay I'll I'll build up a bit more money and then I'll disappear but um it was only after things went terribly badly that I realized I shouldn't play like this anymore what it was they um because the challenge just kept coming so now so did you go back to Australia I went back to Australia and and when I retired within three months right but they weren't waiting for you to arrest you or no no they wanted they wanted something solid okay [Music] um I won't go into the long machinations of it all but um somebody we knew uh was getting things from a Thai Courier and he got arrested he sold us out to the police so that that The Courier would now come to us and I always have	-2	6	-3	David they are funded well they're not bear this in mind but although I what they won't get me with anything they're funded	the only thing you can do is disappear for at least a couple of years and then you can come back if that's what you want	2,4,6	0,2,4	2	4	6	0	2	4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyZyHHexx7s	4,101	oyZyHHexx7s	2022-12-07 00:00:00	even though I was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off I couldn't get people to go with me I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars [Music] it's great to have you back David obviously we've met before but for anyone who doesn't know who you are for new listeners or new viewers could you give us a brief introduction to what you are famous for well I suppose uh most well known for uh having escaped to prison in Thailand in Bangkok uh the biggest one they have there clong Prim it uh wasn't something I did frivolously I was going to be executed within a couple of weeks so it seemed like a good time to leave okay now um we're going to get into that in a bit more detail but one thing that I remember about you from last time is you're the most incredible talker and we took away the inter the initial interview we've done with you and ended up having to make it into two long episodes because you have a lot of different very colorful uh experiences so do forgive me if I Jimmy us through oh no I can understand that I mean the only place I never talk is in the police station I always like some of my uh work colleagues took um what was it one slap to get them talking but five to shut them up oh okay so let's go right back to the beginning um you were born in the UK and then I believe you emigrated to Australia well um it was all a family thing yes I was born in basewater in London I spent the first few years of my life then uh there but my parents broke up divorced and I went with my mother to Australia with my older sister so I don't have any really very early memories of London apart from some old eight millimeter movie footage of me learning to walk in Hyde Park my dad was waving a five pound note in front of my face and I was making every effort to grab it I continued that behavior for many many years afterwards returned to Australia um finished some schooling um got really contrasting jobs I worked in an adult Agency for a while um but also before that I was got a job in a cinema now it was the and under literally an underground place but it was there that I got introduced to a bunch of crooks um some of the girls there had boyfriends that I used to run down with um strange boxes or bits of money or fur coats and then wink at me bolt out the back door pursued by often policemen undercover ones of course whom we'd misdirect somewhere but that Circle they were um safe crackers and they really didn't trust Outsiders and didn't much like the sound of me but because of I demonstrated a couple of things by being look everybody was really very anti-authority then I I don't mean hostile but for people now they they wouldn't have experienced that in the uh late 60s 70s we were so snotty and arrogant we really thought we were going to change the world and that um the laws were all nothing and the way to change them was to break them well that was the kind of vanity we had so um when I got to know the safe crackers uh better there was something really interesting I mean I didn't like the idea you know stealing things seemed a bit tacky but on the other hand they kind of all needed the money from the from their backgrounds and everything but that wasn't so much the the interest it was the technicalities of getting into these things okay um they used to drill through the top um having anchored it with the drill with clamps and and put a kind of little lens inside a cystoscope used in medicine and watch the the wheels turning around this is the old kind of old-fashioned Hollywood style it was yeah and um behind the safe were three discs and you had to line them up and they'd once they got in they'd take the door with them so that the opposition the safe makers wouldn't know how they'd got in and it was a a constant battle between the manufacturers and them because they've come across new safes which had Special Metals in it that was mixed like a a crunchy nut bar very hard metals very soft ones so the drill bit would slip on them snap and you got a sense that this was almost like a game where um they would try something then try to beat them and they were very loyal to each other um they they never spoke out of school as it were um when I got involved with them I'd only have to if I had trouble I don't have to make one phone call and people would appear out of nowhere and I thought yeah this this is kind of better than the treacherous boys school that I I grew up in and how old were you at this point um 19 years old 19. so were you thinking you were making a conscious decision to move into illegal activities or at that point in time and at that point in the world did it feel like more of a kind of a bit of roguish fun would you say I was drawn to it anyway because it was interesting and um I didn't really have a lot of fear I think sometimes what we do or don't do is depending on how scary it seems yeah agreed um I was born with a low resting heart rate as they say you know if it's below 70 you're a risk taker I don't know why that is when the safe crackers retired they put some of their money into growing little crops of weed and so on but profit margin is is only through importing because like the price difference is cheap in the source countries expensive where it sells so because they couldn't do it they were almost throwing it down like a challenge like we don't know anybody who can do this and I thought well I traveled a lot um I didn't think it was going to be impossible um I thought the odds were in my phone and I looked it up I went to the library and sort of researched it a bit and where were you thinking which country Well they um they were very keen to get some um hashish from India or Nepal or somewhere okay I could see um it's bulky and there's packing problems so um they funded me and off I sailed now the operation my first operation was so deplorably bad I'm barely 20 years old I my cunning plan which involved a big piece of exported Machinery which had weights in it so the weights would come out the cash would go in it would weigh the same being returned and it was a piece of Television equipment or something that went South immediately when I didn't realize that I would have to pay a huge deposit in duty to even bring it in as a demo machine so forget that I ended up in short meeting a guy in a money exchange section of a bank I was there because I ran out and I had to send asking for more from the boys and I met him and he wasn't involved in any of this but he soon became that just he managed to get me six kilos of hash I took the 1952 ancient Grundig radio from his parents house the Shelf there guttered the thing like a fish wrapped it up and he had to get cling film in those days think of this before you travel arriving with a suitcase full of cling film doesn't look good I suppose but uh wedged it in there and then just flew back to Sydney now you can imagine what happened well just before we get on to what happened you know one thing that strikes me is what year was would this have been this was uh 77 77 so it's amazing think that back then if someone was going to India for the first time now they could go on Google Maps they could research it or they could find out who they could find phone numbers contacts they could be put in contact with people before they've even set off whereas you must have at that age at that time been going in slightly blind you know touching down in a foreign country that you didn't know well no contacts was that not quite daunting well what was more um troubling with um how everything would fail and then I'd have to um you know come up with another plan what context somebody I knew um um there were no bank robber who joined the hare krishnas and fled to India right and I had his name and and the ashram in Delhi where where he was was supposed to have been uh I didn't really catch up with him on that trip but okay sure so so then you get back to Australia with your radio that is now full to the brim with and I get stopped you you did get stopped okay I could stop because uh I'm I'm on a British passport um and it's the only trip I've ever done and I'm that age I'd stop me oh fatherly type was at the Customs desk now the the systems were different in those days um it was Sydney too which is very and certainly was very relaxed back then right he opened the suitcase uh there was nothing in there except a pair of socks there's a towel wrapping up this massive radio which he lifted up so it was buckled at the sides little red packets poking out oh it smelled like a hedgehog for a patchouliers okay not much of a disguise um he let me go he uh put it back looked around to make sure that none of his workmates were watching him being so soft um and then turned to me and said you're going back there you're going to do this again [Music] all right you can take your we'll call it a radio shall we get out of here what he thought I realized later was that he didn't want the whole grammar of the day arresting me filling out papers and it would have been a a long time plus I guess being a dad he thought if I he's obviously an idiot you're right if I send him into Gladiator Academy or it wasn't really like that in those days but certainly contact center um the prison what am I doing um well I guess uh he was hopeful you know I whilst out of there must have smuggling me but I experienced then what um I got years later which was kind of a real Downer after you know having got nowhere with The Hare krishnas and and cultivated the shoeshine boys and had my money stolen at Amex uh by some Scallywags in Delhi all sorts of Little Adventures over there in India and nonetheless made it it's kind of like that's all there is to it I I didn't really want to give it to anyone um sort of felt like you didn't have a big moment of no a bit of money that came earlier that's handy right uh I paid back what I owed and settled up for for the next thing so but once that was started when you sorry I interrupted you go oh I was just going to say it to finish it even though they'd funded me the guys were very surprised to see me back but at all at all oh you made it oh because some of them say oh you'll just run away with it uh even if that's what he's doing who knows what he's doing you know and then I could see sitting around you can imagine there's like a table full of well like three guys and then a kind of Darkness shrouded over that room I thought uh it's not valuable enough to kill me you know what what is this mood why did you bring that well that's what you've been talking about yeah you could have loaded that with cane or smack or something you guys we say nothing but terrible things about a class or heavy drugs that don't want to know about it right and I could read then that wait a minute there we're all might be guys together and having fun getting into the safe and whatnot but there was a kind of different it was something a very strong lesson I'd have to be thoughtful about that um there could be times where things didn't work out not necessarily that my safety was at risk I didn't see it that way but I knew that there were Ruthless People right okay yeah so you got an insight into a mindset that had been a bit below the surface it was there I just chose not to see it but um I then went on to you know refine everything and Vary everything and then did you after that first time did you were you still working sort of for them or did you immediately well when you wake up on your own when things um I picked up and there was enough money around out of uh out of strategy rather than just being a nice guy I gave my partners a kind of thank you bonus from the next thing that I did but I did that all myself right so it was almost like a yeah separation and I wanted to go back to the my hippie friends anyway they were a little less it wasn't that they were scary but but that didn't last because they were maybe friends might be all right but they will certainly careless and stupid but from from that point onwards after that initial Journey was that you then into the world of smuggling I thought this won't last forever you only need one setback and that changes it I probably made quite a lot of money and I could have got out but and I should have gotta you know I have couriers a leak from one of the the couriers brought the police to me and here was the problem with it it was at first I scattered now I was married to my first wife then clearly Italian girl her dad had restaurants I grabbed her I had a secret drawer with extra passports in it some money ended up four plane Journeys later in um off the Bahamas had the skipper of a day rent yacht and take me out to an island and nobody had ever been on before it was empty sat there on a towel I thought hmm the level of surveillance I had means it's quite a big operation they're funded and I checked with a lawyer before the bigger the money they spent the more determined they'll be stay away or go back I mean I don't know why would anybody do this uh well I wasn't broke um I didn't have to there was no pressure on me the more I went through the problems the more attractive the whole thing is uh she didn't like it much well again do you think because it was a puzzle to be solved because um arrogance really we've gone from basically someone who was kind of mildly interested in making a group of people meeting a group of um safe hackers to someone who pulled off their first thing and then we've jumped to someone who has people working for them and and now is no longer taking the risk themselves now the police are on to you and you're on this desert island well small island and you're thinking about going back into it was this like a turning point in your life in terms of going you know because the other option I suppose was to go straight but were you just more it was that just not an option for you I'd gone to my lawyer Ralph he said look this is what I picked up because I my travel agent had tipped me to a couple of detectives that come in he traveled again while I was in on the phone okay uh actually they're all innocent really yeah you know and and gave him a long list of names um they wanted travel details for and a telephone number which I traced uh to um a private office building which had been rented by state and federal police they were so distrusting of their own they didn't want to even run this thing from um regular police headquarters my lawyer said well what you sure it's you said Ralph look at the list of names there's 30 there I'm 26 of them passports are a lot easier to get back then than there now so you had 26 aliases that you were traveling on yeah right okay um and I described where they were he said David they are funded well they're not bear this in mind but although I what they won't get me with anything they're funded you think they're going to walk away after a year and say oh sorry boss you spend a million dollars and uh nothing doing they don't work like that but this is how stubborn I was I thought because he said the only thing you can do is disappear for at least a couple of years and then you can come back if that's what you want and of course I had justifications for it I thought okay I'll I'll build up a bit more money and then I'll disappear but um it was only after things went terribly badly that I realized I shouldn't play like this anymore what it was they um because the challenge just kept coming so now so did you go back to Australia I went back to Australia and and when I retired within three months right but they weren't waiting for you to arrest you or no no they wanted they wanted something solid okay [Music] um I won't go into the long machinations of it all but um somebody we knew uh was getting things from a Thai Courier and he got arrested he sold us out to the police so that that The Courier would now come to us and I always have some solid evidence right he would bring things but we got away with that because that was another challenge but the police got tired of all this arrested me no drugs of course so it was a difficult case the worst kind of case is that where there's no solid evidence and in a way it's better to go to court where you've got a Smoking Gun and a dead body on the ground because at least you know where you are but where there's nothing tangible and it's conspiracies and this was a huge trial six months long what is that 119 Witnesses 6 000 pages of uh telephone intercept massive thing won't made it worse too and I think this was um would change things for me um the pressure was put on for confessions but it'd be silly to confess and you can't confess on somebody else's behalf can you that's not nice um lots of the family were arrested even my mother was taken and it went oh wow just to put pressure on uh did she know what you did oh she had an idea right okay I mean I used to have bin liners full of money I'd leave behind the fridge yeah you don't get that in the cinema do you not done not a very good day you know uh because they arrested so many people now when they arrested our wives and my business partner Michael his wife just had a baby it was we had to do a deal here I didn't want to but I was going to say I said to Michael look I know you don't like it but we'll play to it get the girls out of trouble we'll Escape that's a good challenge that way [Music] um but unfortunately um the intelligence section put an arsonist Informer in with the girls to get some information her fire was lit uh burnt down the women's prison and my wife and my business partner's wife was were killed uh that's awful and so the Informer that they put in there yeah why did they pick an arsonist for Daniel writer name was I don't know why I remember that after 40 years God so that's quite a big that was oh and and just uh to make things worse the story put about town to scare the careers into talking because they wouldn't speak was that we'd we were killing off all the witnesses and starting with our own family where does that come from um we ended up in a super max prison nightmarish electronic zoo with two inch glass and electronic doors and insane inmates held 48 death rate 27 people a year died in that little supermax going to court in Chains with a SWAT team taking it it was so so much Michael fell to pieces he was just a wreck he didn't make it uh he survived the jail but died when he got out the only way I could survive all of that was to strip away everything I you know I found myself in the supermax concrete everything's concrete the bed everything there's no everything's still just with the tape player from my lure listening to the the tapes the bug tapes the microphones in my house I could play back my life for the last six months clearly you're moving from room to room taking telephone calls she was crying about something I didn't know what I never know and David that's gone immerse yourself in the worst that they have you will not survive this otherwise trial sort of went not so good acquitted of most things but convicted enough 10 years difficult imprisonment but I the only way I could deal with it was to say did I want revenge that was more my fault I brought this about I got her in there I mean a family of a very kind to me about it considering I wouldn't be but it doesn't matter in Chains and super Mech strip it all away it is nothing everyone is a potential enemy everything it just nothing mattered win the day win the night I mean this is a place we had to fill in a book to get some toilet paper the showers were in front of them in a glass box um if you went on a visit they'd zip you up and lock you in a suit so you had no pockets there was after that and her death I felt like there was nothing that could affect me you're wrong about these things you know we're human but I got out and they were there they even visited me to say we'll be on you when you get out the police yeah we enjoyed the old days didn't you yeah I said pretending you know and just to make the point that they were there when I got out um I I'd done a whole lot of Woodwork in the prison in the last place I was at carving intricate things making these really great trick Chinese boxes with beeswax they intercepted the van that was taking it from the prison back to my house and smashed it all to pieces I put it in a box just to say don't think that we will never be here we can do what we want so I decided to leave the country I was um how old am I by then let's work it out yeah uh I started all this Mischief when I was about 18 got arrested at 22. 23 uh um 16 years 17 years either under surveillance or in bad prisons got out and I'm under surveillance again um so how old so you're number 37 about 37. so that's already you know that's a big chunk of Life there but you've lost quite a lot of it to prison or surveillance well at no point now were you like okay and I wasn't a normal person uh really when I got out because of the experience of prison I'd already stripped most of Myself Away to deal with the death of the Superman yeah and and watching people be burnt to death in the place which was frequent somebody had contact glue pulled all over him and then satellite oh God Gods came in and the other one's standing there with a Tire swinging it around to make sure to let him burn let him burn Jesus Barry's name was testicles swollen like apples but black okay he died two hours later in hospital anyway um that was regular account to deal with that I'd already strip things away so when I got a little apartment when I got out and my mother had arranged things for me when they were there when they'd leave rude messages on my answer machine when they'd be behind me everywhere I thought all right I remember this David it never ends if you want to survive go back to the way you were you know in in the super max Anything Can Happen anytime but I didn't want to live like that um I got a fresh passport and most elaborate means um I could spend a week explaining how that came into existence but I went to Thailand to pick up some money I had three days there it was just before Christmas I left at that time on purpose so that they maybe I thought maybe it's their weak point that they want to have families in their life just at Christmas I've parked my mum's car and and left the keys somewhere for her nobody knew were you not meant to leave the country no no no licenses oh I see we're just going to take a minute here to talk about a sponsor of this show which is manscaped we were sent a package to try out by manscaped but Conor one of our producers is already a fan of the brand I believe yeah absolutely I've been using manscape for a little while now and Ben as you know it's that time of year people start asking you what you want for Christmas and I would say that a great gift for a man especially one that might have everything is the manscape performance package 4.0 so what's in that so you get the lawnmower 4.0 electric trimmer you get some anti-chafe boxer shorts which I can vouch for as well as a couple of other grooming products that smell great fantastic well it sounds like a five-star review from uconnor absolutely so Connor you were talking about the performance package there's loads of other great gift ideas such as the hygiene bundle all available at manscape.com com and all gifts that men will genuinely love to receive this Christmas if you are a listener of this podcast you get 20 off and free shipping all you have to do is go to manscape.com and use the code minutes that's manscape.com m-i-n-u-t-e-s minutes um so why are we doing that the risk is it worth it I didn't want to play anymore right I wanted to uh see if I could have a something resembling like a a real life just to find some corner of the world plan was to to return to London and oh so you were leaving forever I'm leaving forever okay I see nobody knew it um I had a couple of hundred thousand in Thailand I thought um which I returned to pick up um now I suppose people say this Crooks always say this most unusual circumstances led to my arrest well they were but then again they always are aren't they or you wouldn't be telling the story or you wouldn't have been arrested but um the USDA was involved lots of people lots of players uh no real drugs are found uh they did an airport sweep and listed me up for like an ounce of something and a false passport or two the money I had just disappeared into pockets but those when I arrived there I felt so free I knew this identity was good I just like floating on air really I slipped out of my protective mode you know that when we stick to the plan and all right you don't want to leave I should have even stayed there for six months just get some sensible view of the world but I I didn't uh and as I went to the airport I could see they were all around me and I melted back into the crowd and disappeared again I thought well that serves me right for changing that attitude I'd had from back in super max and I just glaze over concentrate on the details which I needed to do because when I went to make a phone call later at the travel agency uh waiting it was so depressing being thrown into the Thai prison and I had some idea what they'd be like um people I'd known had been arrested there I knew this much it never won a case you never get out well you get out and what were they arresting you for was it the the uh the passport um what did the the the money wasn't I mean what did they leave 4 000 or something like that right and there are airports we put um I saw the guy walking in with it in a plastic bag you know whatever people throw on the floor before they go through security there was a bit of hash this usual bits of weed but what they really wanted was um this 25 grams of heroin because that would finish me off a policeman um Australian one said was that yours yeah yeah sure it was he said I didn't think so what would you be carrying around that for I mean if it was 10 kilos I might understand but but that was enough the death penalty and was it yours no no no so where where would that come from if you do they do a sweep every afternoon at five o'clock they get tons of it right I get you know nervous passengers go up and then they change their minds and they throw it in the toilet too and were they just did do you think they believed it was yours or do you think they were just going this is we need to give him this bit no no I think they were using it hoping to that would be good to hold and maybe they could get something else find out what I was up to who I was seeing because I had met um somebody who's whose uncle was a big player right so there was there was I think they were optimistic there might be more Camp come out of it but but there wasn't but what difference did it make and I wasn't really worried about um those drugs or the death penalty I wanted to die anyway frankly my first escape plans from there had this I imagine getting out to find the Privacy to kill myself right I wanted to go to the dusa Tony Hotel I knew Which floor and where to get onto the roof I'd taken photographs from there many years before um they were you simply couldn't get a moment's piece dormitories with 150 guys in them screaming all night um we can't even take a crap in peace in the Thai prison We're Not Afraid though of what killing myself well no I mean I don't know being brutalized by the guards or the inmates so well I knew enough about Thailand to to know that it was a little more comic than than bad there were very bad things happen they used to um they've beaten people a couple of people get beaten to death every day there but it's a very big prison we have to get that in proportion I only wish they wouldn't use the food trolley to take the dead bodies out because um you know they don't clean them up um and could you speak the language or were you quite it was a quite different communication uh not really uh and the few languages that uh pitch up in my travels I always found that even if you know them it's better to pretend you don't okay um because they'll talk about you behind your back you know certainly didn't live it on there was I I just couldn't see any point I'd gone to such elaborate precautions on this trip um it just shouldn't have happened and I even got away from the airport and still it happened oh all that confidence that I'll figure a way out I didn't care anymore I just had enough um and I remember seeing an old guy there if you had to go to court they put change on you and um you'd line up on the ground now this old guy I was looking at him because I don't know why a big soundtrack went past he had the presence of mind to push his head under that sand truck and oh it twisted it around popped like a watermelon being dropped on the ground oh my God guys very annoyed told the trustees to get that thing away out of sight was that nice thing called it I thought you Brave bastard you yeah you've got the guts to do that was it not quite a disturbing thing to witness no it was shocking because if you haven't seen it kind of thing up close and I happen to be looking um it was uh but that that's how I felt about it but I was saved In The End by a con man and people say a lot of bad things about economy they do yes they do and they uh you can't be trusted uh they are rottenness and they will cheat you just because they're the Scorpion that's in their nature uh but sometimes they're just what you need and this rather smooth um Bostonian American um who spoke Thai and really knew his way around and I you know I thought the somewhere in this huge prison there'd be an enclave of rich and corrupt foreigners with loads of money and there'd be luxuries it wasn't there was nobody of any importance in there you know a couple of big sacrifices had been made but um a couple of very rich policemen who were in the hospital in intensive care but other than that it was it was just um the people who reached the absolute bottom Drifters in Asia who did run after run and then got sacrificed to the machine they'd get about four jobs a big Syndicate there operating careers had run four times bang they'd shot them to the police they'd be gone oh God they will turn told the same story and it was Joe it was this guest house it was such and such identical and um and and at this point had you been sentenced to death had you received oh no no no I I was trying to avoid that yeah once I came to my senses because the the Boston con had so many wonderful schemes medical thing to get me bail and know some way of a escape with a go to court I get snatched from there I had villains come over and and scope out the court too because there was a way I thought of getting out of there from the lift that took you up to the the building uh snatched from the middle as you go down changed into a different set of clothes but they all got scared thing about um some of our most loved uh and fearless villains they're pretty good in the local manner but you throw them into a place like that where people carry machine guns and shoot at will just for the hell of it not so confident they like the upper edge of being snakes um so I couldn't convince anybody to really help and it was just as well um and two and a half years passed there in this prison it's a long time it was I sort of perked up a little bit pulled myself together started exercising um got a couple of ATM cards over hadn't my favorite god um he was in charge of the the building bought myself a room renovated um so you had you bought a room within the prison that was just for you rented that's rented right you know and is that an official thing that you're allowed to do right there are places in the world where it's official right but you had an influx of money that you could pay for special treats you could survive there on um less than 500 pounds a month and be king oh wow was this the 70s or the 80s now by the way we're into um 90 495 19 the 495 because what's reported about you is that during the 80s you were a multi-millionaire um is that accurate um now what do we call a multi-millionaires a young halfway with a million and a quarter on a glass coffee table and looks around the living room and thinks I've got to get a sofa one of these days um oh goes to the car auctions in the morning buys a big yank tank with a 427 Chevy engine in it um drives it around makes his own car parking spaces you know we're smashing the front in backing the other one pushing the other cars out of the way um oh stoned off my head most of the time uh if I wasn't stunned enough I'd take a few mandracks just to colludes icing on the cake um so I didn't take care of the money and the money didn't take care of me so I guess I'm like the reason I the reason I asked was because it must have been quite a stark change going from a very rich existence to basically somewhere where you basically couldn't pay for anything initially and it was a very poor existence but I guess from what you're saying there it's not like you felt like you were Rich at the time um I've made that contrast a few times when I had my first big arrest I couldn't as I was in a cold near lightless cell of blue stone and horse hair mattress about two inches thick and wrecking a piss I would think back to the night before when I had my important to tell in huge bed and Irish linen sheets and swimming pool out there and um and we had to kind of shake off the contrast but that rubber banding must must have been hard to take because it's you're going from basically the aspiration of almost everyone where you're talking about just buying cars outright and having a swimming pool to a piss stinking bed you know it must be it was you know it's odd thing about it was providing I could see a way out a work a way out I didn't so much mind oh okay um I really trained myself to expect my whatever world I built up and and this happened several times I've done it five times had a new identity New Life new surroundings even new people and dang they're gone and every time it got worse um and there was even Thailand was desperately important because even though it was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it um you know I was somebody that nobody minded killing um so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah there's nothing like the prospect of being executed by a machine gun which is the way they did it God is that what it would have been wow yeah you know oh they'd have three guards all with a bit of string on the trigger and they'd all pull it once so that none of them could be condemned in the Buddhist sense of sin oh they don't even actually right I see it caused the bullet that finished you off oh I see so you're in the Thai prison you've been sentenced to uh rather unpleasant death penalty um how did you start coming up with this famous plan for escaping um desperation it was the last plan that looked like it was going to work um there were probably about 20 plans considered um everything from being the prison held I've since found out it holds 22 000 people oh my God in 10 sub prisons uh there's a women's section there's a young offenders there's a special reminder a drug unit all of that um just a wild place it has everything it even had a prisoner-run shop where you could extract you could borrow money against your account and cash anyway um one of the plans involved being welded into a VW Combi van in the prisons Auto Workshop which would be picked up early Monday morning and I'd be driven out and that another one was um there were several courtroom ones and you couldn't just pay your way out no no it's just you could pay to have a mobile phone which in those days was a rare thing but they were around um you could pay for a bottle of clong uh whiskey you could pay I'm sure you could pay to get a a girl in your room if you could work out what a room was that a whole section full of ladyboys there and got a building full of them they used to open it up on Saturdays so um you could pay for anything but not to leave they couldn't cover that and they couldn't trust each other you would need 25 30 different guards paid off and and the gods of visitors I mean too many guides no that wouldn't work and they looked at it as a kind of betrayal only if I saw two escapes attempts there one group of uh straight kids and a Singaporean got out of their cell incredibly turned themselves into the sleeping God when they'd all lied to each other about what they didn't have you know the ropes and ways out because they're it was so outraged that they'd spoiled the guys jobs they beat them to death slowly tortured them over three months to death having put them in little code lockers the soy they call them drag them out in elephant chains every day and batter them senseless uh internal bleeding usually did it um look I've got a bowl of rice and a painting to poo in that was it um even the water was it was just too horrible so if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off even my Swedish friends Sten the Viking he backed out at the last minute I couldn't get people to go with me all the other plants had fallen to bits because they depended on other people I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars and I needed equipment for that and here's a really important point I guess as bad as this world is you've got to try to find good people if you ask somebody if you asked your friend yeah and and you're finished you'll manage to get a phone call and say friend it's been here um I need you to get um I don't know four hacksaw blades and cut them into the dowel rods of a of a poster and then paint it all up and send it in a huge package with this that cable ties gaffer tape but disguise all that how many people are going to do it turn around wouldn't believe it Ben called me what his neck yeah he's screwed but anyway he wouldn't believe but he wants me to do this that now people don't do it but Michael on the other hand our business partner wouldn't even let me explain he hadn't heard from me in 18 months he said David don't explain I'm sure we could get cut off tell me the important part now where do I have to be and what do I have to bring no that's a friend um and so I've always tried to do the same for the others that I've known like that um but um I did get the equipment together that I needed and everything um about escapes from a big prison is not like your hope it's going to be you know I turned it out walked around the streets and it had streets inside it um and timed it with my trusty Casio and it was so I knew roughly how long it would take to get me but the night's a different world I'm a prisoner I'm only used to noise during the day even the fan chopping around in the Cell at night it's so quiet everything I did squeaked and rattled and twisted I came across a panel that had to be a nail had to come out and that and they'll protest it and scream their wrench out of the way it took um uh seven or eight worlds uh sorry seven or eight walls to cross over I say worlds because they really were every building was a different thing and I got lost and I went past the terminal AIDS Ward that building hundreds of guys all die and I could smell it before I got there because this necrotic Rotting Flesh and I couldn't resist looking in I'm carrying this huge long ladder made out of bamboo poles and fake picture frames gaffer taped along the center [Music] um and I looked up and I saw all these little faces in the Moonlight wrapped in so much pain and despair they didn't have the energy to cry out to the guards if they'd been in any other prisoners they would have the trustees there were absolute scum of the earth had whistled little uniforms sell the drugs one day and the rest of the guys for it the next all of that um and it was only by um well I only got to the outer wall by Dawn and if somebody had been with me I wouldn't have made it either you wouldn't have no imagine I've taken all night to get there and at each point where this something was unexpected I've had to dream up something and I get a little basic toolkit and I sometimes I'd have to sacrifice part of my ladder to make a hook to pull down barbed wire and the technique for using the thing was awkward you had to prop it walk up drop down the other side so you're twisting over the walls like that manual is entirely barbed wire so I had to go underneath it covered in mud the the last one was really too high and there was a Mars bar Creek the the moat that ran around I did you know if I was with somebody else we'd be arguing wouldn't we oh Spa Creek oh it was full of turds bombing around it was caught out of the sewer yeah you did ask um illustrative okay we're just gonna take a quick break from the show to talk about a sponsor of this episode better help better help is an online Counseling Service which connects people to therapists and counselors I'm joined by one of our producers bryony is counseling something you've had experience with do you know what it's interesting because when I was growing up the same kind of challenges in life would happen but people wouldn't necessarily go to therapy or talk about therapy and I feel like since uh maybe my late teens early 20s people are starting to go to therapy and talking about it and I have definitely used it in my life and it's been massively beneficial same and do you because I think one of the things that people often mistake they think it's just for big things yeah but what's the other experience of that thing I think life always throws you know small challenges and large challenges and sometimes the big things need talking about but actually you know starting a new school or starting a new job can rile up that same level of anxiety and it's just really helpful to be able to talk to someone about it who is completely impartial not involved in your life and just kind of a safe space I guess to just say whatever you want to say you completely agree as the world's largest therapy service better help as much 3 million people with professionally licensed and vetted therapists available 100 online plus it's affordable just fill out a brief questionnaire to match with a therapist if things aren't clicking you can easily switch to a new therapist anytime it couldn't be simpler no waiting rooms no traffic no endless searching for the right therapist learn more and save 10 of your first month at betterhelp.com minutes with that's betterhelp help help.com minutes with um now there was one way of oh Beyond marsburg create this a foot and a half of land before this huge huge wall you've got to get a ladder that's too heavy to carry too imbalanced to do anything with but you've got a bit of rope how do you get it to the other side of Mars bar which has all got tangled barb wire in that so it'll catch get it in place and up against the wall when you've got no ground to to walk on now there is a way and uh I guess people have to listen to me describe it either to you or in my book okay fine but too long to tell here sure but um I could see the glow of dawn as I got to the top which had electricity running through it too just to make it the top of the wall dead yeah yeah wow but um my friend who um was in there a bit of a technician is to belong to the anarchist Society in in Britain how would you belong to a society that has rules when you anyway putting that aside he did tell me that it would only be 240 volts but to be careful um and just managed to get over that and because the original plan was to um oh there was an outer moat beyond that of 20 meters I had my clothes ready to go into a plastic bag swim the moat but just as well I didn't um because all it turned out all the guards houses were over the other side of that moat this would not be a place to go but I cleaned myself up threw some clothes on and I one of the jobs that I didn't do but I was supposed to be doing was working in the Umbrella Factory so I paid a local boy to do it um I've got a pop-up umbrella from there I thought you know you really get a perspective about I want to just simple discrimination but being an outsider a foreigner the way sometimes people feel picked upon you know we were called the white trash and we were in in Chains and everything so I knew I had to cover my face in the popular did it and I managed to get to a place where a passport was hidden and to the airport and still had a working ATM card to get me out of the country into Singapore so did you end up with the umbrella did you walk out the front gate yeah I did I had some long trousers on now in their prisoners are not allowed to wear them so I had some khaki pants I thought they might as I walked around the the narrow path to the front gate it's still mote but a little Bridge I thought another figure it's a guard arriving late and sneaking in and I did I felt like Ripley an alien uh looking at thinking lucky lucky this is where it all ends doesn't it and I'm thinking that every moment and looking up and there was just enough light rain to justify the umbrella yeah I would learn later that was actually the not a rain from the gods but the spittle of their laughter because they had worse things in mind for me later on I mean it's so it's you know how many people are you aware how many people had escaped from that prison up to that point was it some every year or was it very infrequent none um the ties sometimes ran away when they were doing the gardens in Chains outside but Escape From Within um I'd known of in 20 years people could recall two attempts no foreigners um and they didn't trust the foreigners that's why they put you on the third floor right quite rightly yes and and how long had it taken you from like the beginning of the uh I started cutting at um 11 45 I paid a lot to get a light switch in there normally the lights are on all the time um okay and I said to my favorite guard oh yeah Ponting or whatever his name was I can't sleep with that thing I'll put a light switch in um um now they didn't say it as corruption or bribe taking they thought I'm doing this nice guy a favor and I'll be lucky because of it that's a very big thing over there you know if I get caught I'm unlucky then so they can batter me to death I mean sure it's kind of self-justifies any action that a human being might take so he started cutting around eight for 11 45 11 45 okay it's quite close through one bar by two in the morning oh God stencia listen we'll go on the next note I looked around and Kevin the American from Hawaii I didn't even know this was happening uh Mirage the Indian I know he's going to talk the next morning he was kakaria LA pantaloni right in the cell never mind holding out and not saying anything he would have it would have been finished I never would have made it and I guess I could have seen the missing bars potentially but I learned later on I actually caught up with somebody who was in there Scottish guy um he was there for selling ecstasy to the Two well-off Sons and Daughters of wealthy policemen anyway um he remembers they the guards couldn't figure that I'd left oh um he said David they ran around the the prison calling out your name it was Daniel Westlake while I was there Daniel Daniel they okay that somebody drew their attention to the cut bar in there yeah my Scottish friend said they the gods wanted they thought that okay he's got out he's angry about something uh Daniel but he's not actually he'll never get out he couldn't get it they never found the the ladder down the front wall until much much later so for um uh uh only one of them said oh we better check the airport they sent a couple of guys down there um just a little bit late and you were gone by then only just and remember man you've got a passport from a Chinese connection that you barely know but kind of like the cut of his jib but are you gonna put your life on the line on that and at every moment you're handing it over you know like the look of it yeah they don't like the look of it they're typing it up and you're thinking they got onto the computer have they done that bit uh have they entered my arrival was this I knew it was freshly stolen or sold off was only a few weeks old uh I mean not new was had only gone missing a few weeks earlier so it was still good but very nerve-wracking and I didn't have a photo I had to use my old um uh radio operators license that had a photograph in it to get reproduced into this thing so it was a bit grainy um and even on the plane it was delay and takeoff oh God and a mumbling Captain oh sorry um we we have a thing with one passenger I just asked what thing exactly soon enough thwomp doors to manual oh but I've got an hour you know looking at this passport I don't like it get to Singapore but I make it through so you got to Singapore yeah but you did end up going back to prison not a Thai prison but a different prison he's suggesting uh I did something wrong well I'm hoping you're going to tell me um no well okay uh I didn't stay in Singapore long because um I sat there in the hotel room unable to digest food not prepared by my own cook sure I in the hotel room in Singapore I realized you could work out who had left that day if they'd flown my air by simply going to the airport and children you work it out yourselves at home you check everybody who's left separate the foreigners hmm go a step further let's keep the Canadian and American the British the Australian New Zealand all the English-speaking passport Society um just to you know reduce the numbers take those names check with the embassies any of these names belong to lost or stolen passports that have been reported yeah five of them because that's Bangkok you know not the only Mischief maker there but nonetheless um they probably knew I could be who was I Charles McClintock hmm sorry Charles I had to borrow your passport but it was an essential cause but you're not wanted anymore of course are you no but I did get an unwelcome knock at the door some years ago uh by the police who um would it be to go excuse me Westminster Court known for the terrorist cases extradition or parking fights wow I'd lift the car anywhere lately so it was going to be one of the other two and it was extradition to Thailand I fought that case for two years and um it was difficult um but managed to effectively win in the end so the ties have dropped that one and I can't be taken back there I'm not wanted anywhere um I can nobody can do what they want but um I I'm not I haven't got anything pending I'm not in business I'm a bit cautious I even got sent something in the the mail a few years ago and I thought it was some gift from some halfway ambitious wombat in in Pakistan sending me a bit of dope thinking oh yeah there's a gift you might like that connection made no I mean people had my address all around the world ever since Danny Dyer um it turned out to be more complicated than that but um very dangerous for me to walk into a courtroom so I don't even imagine you're me and knock at the door oh here's something for you Ben you don't like the look of it you refuse it you're in court no matter why did you refuse that was it your name no you was up The Jig was up proof ladies and gentlemen oh you accept it ah you accepted it proof ladies and gentlemen wife saying to me Jeanette and whom I met in Pakistan years ago and she was there to fish out her husband on a two-ton hash deal he didn't make it anyway um she said throw the thing away I'm thinking in court again ladies and gentlemen he threw the stuff away I can't win so very cautious about all that kind of stuff um fair enough but I take it you won't be going for a holiday to Thailand anytime soon I didn't think so okay so how many do you know off the top of your head of your life how many years of your life have you spent in prison ultimately I did add it up once I'm 66 now and I suppose I've spent um but 22 years the thing that occurs to me and I met you before and I thought the same thing is like you obviously extremely intelligent extremely resourceful it can't be well but well anyway but do you regret the choices you made in terms of do you see those 22 years in prison as something you had no control over it's just the way the dice rolled or do you see them as a mistake on your part um worse than a mistake mistake suggest you didn't know uh where you were going wrong I was taking those steps into uh of a precipice that I'd defied there is no gravity I said I said I will work out something before I hit the ground um when I was It was kind of in stages when I was young it was just arrogance and and showing off and later on when everything was destroyed it was kind of I'd scraped away all of my life and would just go on um then in the third stage it was escaping away from places rebuilding up and being weakened every time it was taken away again um and do I regret it yeah I'm sure I um no you know some people say oh yeah but David just smuggled everything on Earth you scumbag you you know um think of the lives you've destroyed and the people you've heard ah and I go to start to explain that it's not quite black and white uh I mean I've had drug habits myself that I've carelessly allowed um but I thought what's the point anything I say we just sound like self-justification so well don't listen to me then you know but things that have happened that have taught me a lot it's interesting you say that because one of a lot of the comments on our well on the first video we did a lot of the comments where people saying someone needs to make a movie about this guy but a lot of the other comments were people saying he's so charismatic and likable but he must be a really dangerous person to have been involved with all these worlds for so long and um we've interviewed a couple of drug smugglers and I would say they're the ones that I've met have been the ones that probably are more someone you'd see is traditionally quite an obviously dangerous person you come across as very Charming charismatic roguish where do you see yourself on that scale do you see yourself as someone who was dangerous or do you see yourself as someone who's just moved from area to area as it occurred um kind of like this a dangerous I suppose what most people see that and you know if somebody was a problem for me would I find the best option to have them killed or not but really there always was a kind of Vestige of that's a failure if you can't think of anything better than to have them killed then then then what are you doing there's a million clever ways of solving your problems and that besides which there's always going to be people you can't kill everybody um not only that who killed the killers that you've got to do the killing you know you know they always say that about the quiet ones and all of that but it was the people who bothered to put up a smoke screen um they're establishing a um later Alibi a courtroom personality but I met him he didn't seem bothered by all of that why would he have him killed and those are the ones that um seem to be more dangerous and if I was such a dangerous person like that I certainly been absolute fool to break from that mold and say otherwise wouldn't it very true David it's great to see you again thank you so much for coming in always a pleasure yeah and I've Got a Feeling we'll be seeing you again at some point as well it's possible it does may cross thank you I'll be like oh my God they're in my head they they know they know that was a song and so they put that song on the radio and it's all everything revolves around me or you know and this happened well sometimes happens today you know I'm I'm thinking of someone in my head someone under there like on the street	some solid evidence right he would bring things but we got away with that because that was another challenge but the police got tired of all this arrested me no drugs of course so it was a difficult case the worst kind of case is that where there's no solid evidence and in a way it's better to go to court where you've got a Smoking Gun and a dead body on the ground because at least you know where you are but where there's nothing tangible and it's conspiracies and this was a huge trial six months long what is that 119 Witnesses 6 000 pages of uh telephone intercept massive thing won't made it worse too and I think this was um would change things for me um the pressure was put on for confessions but it'd be silly to confess and you can't confess on somebody else's behalf can you that's not nice um lots of the family were arrested even my mother was taken and it went oh wow just to put pressure on uh did she know what you did oh she had an idea right okay I mean I used to have bin liners full of money I'd leave behind the fridge yeah you don't get that in the cinema do you not done not a very good day you know uh because they arrested so many people now when they arrested our wives and my business partner Michael his wife just had a	-2	8	-5	some solid evidence right he would bring things but we got away with that because that was another challenge but the police got tired of all this arrested me no drugs of course so it was a difficult case the worst kind of case is that where there's no solid evidence and in a way it's better to go to court where you've got a Smoking Gun and a dead body on the ground because at least you know where you are but where there's nothing tangible and it's conspiracies and this was a huge trial six months long what is that 119 Witnesses 6 000 pages of uh telephone intercept massive thing won't made it worse too and I think this was um would change things for me um the pressure was put on for confessions but it'd be silly to confess and you can't confess on somebody else's behalf can you that's not nice um lots of the family were arrested even my mother was taken and it went oh wow just to put pressure on uh did she know what you did oh she had an idea right okay I mean I used to have bin liners full of money I'd leave behind the fridge yeah you don't get that in the cinema do you not done not a very good day you know uh because they arrested so many people now when they arrested our wives and my business partner Michael his wife just had a	oh she had an idea right okay	2,-3,4	0,2,5	2	-3	4	0	2	5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyZyHHexx7s	4,101	oyZyHHexx7s	2022-12-07 00:00:00	even though I was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off I couldn't get people to go with me I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars [Music] it's great to have you back David obviously we've met before but for anyone who doesn't know who you are for new listeners or new viewers could you give us a brief introduction to what you are famous for well I suppose uh most well known for uh having escaped to prison in Thailand in Bangkok uh the biggest one they have there clong Prim it uh wasn't something I did frivolously I was going to be executed within a couple of weeks so it seemed like a good time to leave okay now um we're going to get into that in a bit more detail but one thing that I remember about you from last time is you're the most incredible talker and we took away the inter the initial interview we've done with you and ended up having to make it into two long episodes because you have a lot of different very colorful uh experiences so do forgive me if I Jimmy us through oh no I can understand that I mean the only place I never talk is in the police station I always like some of my uh work colleagues took um what was it one slap to get them talking but five to shut them up oh okay so let's go right back to the beginning um you were born in the UK and then I believe you emigrated to Australia well um it was all a family thing yes I was born in basewater in London I spent the first few years of my life then uh there but my parents broke up divorced and I went with my mother to Australia with my older sister so I don't have any really very early memories of London apart from some old eight millimeter movie footage of me learning to walk in Hyde Park my dad was waving a five pound note in front of my face and I was making every effort to grab it I continued that behavior for many many years afterwards returned to Australia um finished some schooling um got really contrasting jobs I worked in an adult Agency for a while um but also before that I was got a job in a cinema now it was the and under literally an underground place but it was there that I got introduced to a bunch of crooks um some of the girls there had boyfriends that I used to run down with um strange boxes or bits of money or fur coats and then wink at me bolt out the back door pursued by often policemen undercover ones of course whom we'd misdirect somewhere but that Circle they were um safe crackers and they really didn't trust Outsiders and didn't much like the sound of me but because of I demonstrated a couple of things by being look everybody was really very anti-authority then I I don't mean hostile but for people now they they wouldn't have experienced that in the uh late 60s 70s we were so snotty and arrogant we really thought we were going to change the world and that um the laws were all nothing and the way to change them was to break them well that was the kind of vanity we had so um when I got to know the safe crackers uh better there was something really interesting I mean I didn't like the idea you know stealing things seemed a bit tacky but on the other hand they kind of all needed the money from the from their backgrounds and everything but that wasn't so much the the interest it was the technicalities of getting into these things okay um they used to drill through the top um having anchored it with the drill with clamps and and put a kind of little lens inside a cystoscope used in medicine and watch the the wheels turning around this is the old kind of old-fashioned Hollywood style it was yeah and um behind the safe were three discs and you had to line them up and they'd once they got in they'd take the door with them so that the opposition the safe makers wouldn't know how they'd got in and it was a a constant battle between the manufacturers and them because they've come across new safes which had Special Metals in it that was mixed like a a crunchy nut bar very hard metals very soft ones so the drill bit would slip on them snap and you got a sense that this was almost like a game where um they would try something then try to beat them and they were very loyal to each other um they they never spoke out of school as it were um when I got involved with them I'd only have to if I had trouble I don't have to make one phone call and people would appear out of nowhere and I thought yeah this this is kind of better than the treacherous boys school that I I grew up in and how old were you at this point um 19 years old 19. so were you thinking you were making a conscious decision to move into illegal activities or at that point in time and at that point in the world did it feel like more of a kind of a bit of roguish fun would you say I was drawn to it anyway because it was interesting and um I didn't really have a lot of fear I think sometimes what we do or don't do is depending on how scary it seems yeah agreed um I was born with a low resting heart rate as they say you know if it's below 70 you're a risk taker I don't know why that is when the safe crackers retired they put some of their money into growing little crops of weed and so on but profit margin is is only through importing because like the price difference is cheap in the source countries expensive where it sells so because they couldn't do it they were almost throwing it down like a challenge like we don't know anybody who can do this and I thought well I traveled a lot um I didn't think it was going to be impossible um I thought the odds were in my phone and I looked it up I went to the library and sort of researched it a bit and where were you thinking which country Well they um they were very keen to get some um hashish from India or Nepal or somewhere okay I could see um it's bulky and there's packing problems so um they funded me and off I sailed now the operation my first operation was so deplorably bad I'm barely 20 years old I my cunning plan which involved a big piece of exported Machinery which had weights in it so the weights would come out the cash would go in it would weigh the same being returned and it was a piece of Television equipment or something that went South immediately when I didn't realize that I would have to pay a huge deposit in duty to even bring it in as a demo machine so forget that I ended up in short meeting a guy in a money exchange section of a bank I was there because I ran out and I had to send asking for more from the boys and I met him and he wasn't involved in any of this but he soon became that just he managed to get me six kilos of hash I took the 1952 ancient Grundig radio from his parents house the Shelf there guttered the thing like a fish wrapped it up and he had to get cling film in those days think of this before you travel arriving with a suitcase full of cling film doesn't look good I suppose but uh wedged it in there and then just flew back to Sydney now you can imagine what happened well just before we get on to what happened you know one thing that strikes me is what year was would this have been this was uh 77 77 so it's amazing think that back then if someone was going to India for the first time now they could go on Google Maps they could research it or they could find out who they could find phone numbers contacts they could be put in contact with people before they've even set off whereas you must have at that age at that time been going in slightly blind you know touching down in a foreign country that you didn't know well no contacts was that not quite daunting well what was more um troubling with um how everything would fail and then I'd have to um you know come up with another plan what context somebody I knew um um there were no bank robber who joined the hare krishnas and fled to India right and I had his name and and the ashram in Delhi where where he was was supposed to have been uh I didn't really catch up with him on that trip but okay sure so so then you get back to Australia with your radio that is now full to the brim with and I get stopped you you did get stopped okay I could stop because uh I'm I'm on a British passport um and it's the only trip I've ever done and I'm that age I'd stop me oh fatherly type was at the Customs desk now the the systems were different in those days um it was Sydney too which is very and certainly was very relaxed back then right he opened the suitcase uh there was nothing in there except a pair of socks there's a towel wrapping up this massive radio which he lifted up so it was buckled at the sides little red packets poking out oh it smelled like a hedgehog for a patchouliers okay not much of a disguise um he let me go he uh put it back looked around to make sure that none of his workmates were watching him being so soft um and then turned to me and said you're going back there you're going to do this again [Music] all right you can take your we'll call it a radio shall we get out of here what he thought I realized later was that he didn't want the whole grammar of the day arresting me filling out papers and it would have been a a long time plus I guess being a dad he thought if I he's obviously an idiot you're right if I send him into Gladiator Academy or it wasn't really like that in those days but certainly contact center um the prison what am I doing um well I guess uh he was hopeful you know I whilst out of there must have smuggling me but I experienced then what um I got years later which was kind of a real Downer after you know having got nowhere with The Hare krishnas and and cultivated the shoeshine boys and had my money stolen at Amex uh by some Scallywags in Delhi all sorts of Little Adventures over there in India and nonetheless made it it's kind of like that's all there is to it I I didn't really want to give it to anyone um sort of felt like you didn't have a big moment of no a bit of money that came earlier that's handy right uh I paid back what I owed and settled up for for the next thing so but once that was started when you sorry I interrupted you go oh I was just going to say it to finish it even though they'd funded me the guys were very surprised to see me back but at all at all oh you made it oh because some of them say oh you'll just run away with it uh even if that's what he's doing who knows what he's doing you know and then I could see sitting around you can imagine there's like a table full of well like three guys and then a kind of Darkness shrouded over that room I thought uh it's not valuable enough to kill me you know what what is this mood why did you bring that well that's what you've been talking about yeah you could have loaded that with cane or smack or something you guys we say nothing but terrible things about a class or heavy drugs that don't want to know about it right and I could read then that wait a minute there we're all might be guys together and having fun getting into the safe and whatnot but there was a kind of different it was something a very strong lesson I'd have to be thoughtful about that um there could be times where things didn't work out not necessarily that my safety was at risk I didn't see it that way but I knew that there were Ruthless People right okay yeah so you got an insight into a mindset that had been a bit below the surface it was there I just chose not to see it but um I then went on to you know refine everything and Vary everything and then did you after that first time did you were you still working sort of for them or did you immediately well when you wake up on your own when things um I picked up and there was enough money around out of uh out of strategy rather than just being a nice guy I gave my partners a kind of thank you bonus from the next thing that I did but I did that all myself right so it was almost like a yeah separation and I wanted to go back to the my hippie friends anyway they were a little less it wasn't that they were scary but but that didn't last because they were maybe friends might be all right but they will certainly careless and stupid but from from that point onwards after that initial Journey was that you then into the world of smuggling I thought this won't last forever you only need one setback and that changes it I probably made quite a lot of money and I could have got out but and I should have gotta you know I have couriers a leak from one of the the couriers brought the police to me and here was the problem with it it was at first I scattered now I was married to my first wife then clearly Italian girl her dad had restaurants I grabbed her I had a secret drawer with extra passports in it some money ended up four plane Journeys later in um off the Bahamas had the skipper of a day rent yacht and take me out to an island and nobody had ever been on before it was empty sat there on a towel I thought hmm the level of surveillance I had means it's quite a big operation they're funded and I checked with a lawyer before the bigger the money they spent the more determined they'll be stay away or go back I mean I don't know why would anybody do this uh well I wasn't broke um I didn't have to there was no pressure on me the more I went through the problems the more attractive the whole thing is uh she didn't like it much well again do you think because it was a puzzle to be solved because um arrogance really we've gone from basically someone who was kind of mildly interested in making a group of people meeting a group of um safe hackers to someone who pulled off their first thing and then we've jumped to someone who has people working for them and and now is no longer taking the risk themselves now the police are on to you and you're on this desert island well small island and you're thinking about going back into it was this like a turning point in your life in terms of going you know because the other option I suppose was to go straight but were you just more it was that just not an option for you I'd gone to my lawyer Ralph he said look this is what I picked up because I my travel agent had tipped me to a couple of detectives that come in he traveled again while I was in on the phone okay uh actually they're all innocent really yeah you know and and gave him a long list of names um they wanted travel details for and a telephone number which I traced uh to um a private office building which had been rented by state and federal police they were so distrusting of their own they didn't want to even run this thing from um regular police headquarters my lawyer said well what you sure it's you said Ralph look at the list of names there's 30 there I'm 26 of them passports are a lot easier to get back then than there now so you had 26 aliases that you were traveling on yeah right okay um and I described where they were he said David they are funded well they're not bear this in mind but although I what they won't get me with anything they're funded you think they're going to walk away after a year and say oh sorry boss you spend a million dollars and uh nothing doing they don't work like that but this is how stubborn I was I thought because he said the only thing you can do is disappear for at least a couple of years and then you can come back if that's what you want and of course I had justifications for it I thought okay I'll I'll build up a bit more money and then I'll disappear but um it was only after things went terribly badly that I realized I shouldn't play like this anymore what it was they um because the challenge just kept coming so now so did you go back to Australia I went back to Australia and and when I retired within three months right but they weren't waiting for you to arrest you or no no they wanted they wanted something solid okay [Music] um I won't go into the long machinations of it all but um somebody we knew uh was getting things from a Thai Courier and he got arrested he sold us out to the police so that that The Courier would now come to us and I always have some solid evidence right he would bring things but we got away with that because that was another challenge but the police got tired of all this arrested me no drugs of course so it was a difficult case the worst kind of case is that where there's no solid evidence and in a way it's better to go to court where you've got a Smoking Gun and a dead body on the ground because at least you know where you are but where there's nothing tangible and it's conspiracies and this was a huge trial six months long what is that 119 Witnesses 6 000 pages of uh telephone intercept massive thing won't made it worse too and I think this was um would change things for me um the pressure was put on for confessions but it'd be silly to confess and you can't confess on somebody else's behalf can you that's not nice um lots of the family were arrested even my mother was taken and it went oh wow just to put pressure on uh did she know what you did oh she had an idea right okay I mean I used to have bin liners full of money I'd leave behind the fridge yeah you don't get that in the cinema do you not done not a very good day you know uh because they arrested so many people now when they arrested our wives and my business partner Michael his wife just had a baby it was we had to do a deal here I didn't want to but I was going to say I said to Michael look I know you don't like it but we'll play to it get the girls out of trouble we'll Escape that's a good challenge that way [Music] um but unfortunately um the intelligence section put an arsonist Informer in with the girls to get some information her fire was lit uh burnt down the women's prison and my wife and my business partner's wife was were killed uh that's awful and so the Informer that they put in there yeah why did they pick an arsonist for Daniel writer name was I don't know why I remember that after 40 years God so that's quite a big that was oh and and just uh to make things worse the story put about town to scare the careers into talking because they wouldn't speak was that we'd we were killing off all the witnesses and starting with our own family where does that come from um we ended up in a super max prison nightmarish electronic zoo with two inch glass and electronic doors and insane inmates held 48 death rate 27 people a year died in that little supermax going to court in Chains with a SWAT team taking it it was so so much Michael fell to pieces he was just a wreck he didn't make it uh he survived the jail but died when he got out the only way I could survive all of that was to strip away everything I you know I found myself in the supermax concrete everything's concrete the bed everything there's no everything's still just with the tape player from my lure listening to the the tapes the bug tapes the microphones in my house I could play back my life for the last six months clearly you're moving from room to room taking telephone calls she was crying about something I didn't know what I never know and David that's gone immerse yourself in the worst that they have you will not survive this otherwise trial sort of went not so good acquitted of most things but convicted enough 10 years difficult imprisonment but I the only way I could deal with it was to say did I want revenge that was more my fault I brought this about I got her in there I mean a family of a very kind to me about it considering I wouldn't be but it doesn't matter in Chains and super Mech strip it all away it is nothing everyone is a potential enemy everything it just nothing mattered win the day win the night I mean this is a place we had to fill in a book to get some toilet paper the showers were in front of them in a glass box um if you went on a visit they'd zip you up and lock you in a suit so you had no pockets there was after that and her death I felt like there was nothing that could affect me you're wrong about these things you know we're human but I got out and they were there they even visited me to say we'll be on you when you get out the police yeah we enjoyed the old days didn't you yeah I said pretending you know and just to make the point that they were there when I got out um I I'd done a whole lot of Woodwork in the prison in the last place I was at carving intricate things making these really great trick Chinese boxes with beeswax they intercepted the van that was taking it from the prison back to my house and smashed it all to pieces I put it in a box just to say don't think that we will never be here we can do what we want so I decided to leave the country I was um how old am I by then let's work it out yeah uh I started all this Mischief when I was about 18 got arrested at 22. 23 uh um 16 years 17 years either under surveillance or in bad prisons got out and I'm under surveillance again um so how old so you're number 37 about 37. so that's already you know that's a big chunk of Life there but you've lost quite a lot of it to prison or surveillance well at no point now were you like okay and I wasn't a normal person uh really when I got out because of the experience of prison I'd already stripped most of Myself Away to deal with the death of the Superman yeah and and watching people be burnt to death in the place which was frequent somebody had contact glue pulled all over him and then satellite oh God Gods came in and the other one's standing there with a Tire swinging it around to make sure to let him burn let him burn Jesus Barry's name was testicles swollen like apples but black okay he died two hours later in hospital anyway um that was regular account to deal with that I'd already strip things away so when I got a little apartment when I got out and my mother had arranged things for me when they were there when they'd leave rude messages on my answer machine when they'd be behind me everywhere I thought all right I remember this David it never ends if you want to survive go back to the way you were you know in in the super max Anything Can Happen anytime but I didn't want to live like that um I got a fresh passport and most elaborate means um I could spend a week explaining how that came into existence but I went to Thailand to pick up some money I had three days there it was just before Christmas I left at that time on purpose so that they maybe I thought maybe it's their weak point that they want to have families in their life just at Christmas I've parked my mum's car and and left the keys somewhere for her nobody knew were you not meant to leave the country no no no licenses oh I see we're just going to take a minute here to talk about a sponsor of this show which is manscaped we were sent a package to try out by manscaped but Conor one of our producers is already a fan of the brand I believe yeah absolutely I've been using manscape for a little while now and Ben as you know it's that time of year people start asking you what you want for Christmas and I would say that a great gift for a man especially one that might have everything is the manscape performance package 4.0 so what's in that so you get the lawnmower 4.0 electric trimmer you get some anti-chafe boxer shorts which I can vouch for as well as a couple of other grooming products that smell great fantastic well it sounds like a five-star review from uconnor absolutely so Connor you were talking about the performance package there's loads of other great gift ideas such as the hygiene bundle all available at manscape.com com and all gifts that men will genuinely love to receive this Christmas if you are a listener of this podcast you get 20 off and free shipping all you have to do is go to manscape.com and use the code minutes that's manscape.com m-i-n-u-t-e-s minutes um so why are we doing that the risk is it worth it I didn't want to play anymore right I wanted to uh see if I could have a something resembling like a a real life just to find some corner of the world plan was to to return to London and oh so you were leaving forever I'm leaving forever okay I see nobody knew it um I had a couple of hundred thousand in Thailand I thought um which I returned to pick up um now I suppose people say this Crooks always say this most unusual circumstances led to my arrest well they were but then again they always are aren't they or you wouldn't be telling the story or you wouldn't have been arrested but um the USDA was involved lots of people lots of players uh no real drugs are found uh they did an airport sweep and listed me up for like an ounce of something and a false passport or two the money I had just disappeared into pockets but those when I arrived there I felt so free I knew this identity was good I just like floating on air really I slipped out of my protective mode you know that when we stick to the plan and all right you don't want to leave I should have even stayed there for six months just get some sensible view of the world but I I didn't uh and as I went to the airport I could see they were all around me and I melted back into the crowd and disappeared again I thought well that serves me right for changing that attitude I'd had from back in super max and I just glaze over concentrate on the details which I needed to do because when I went to make a phone call later at the travel agency uh waiting it was so depressing being thrown into the Thai prison and I had some idea what they'd be like um people I'd known had been arrested there I knew this much it never won a case you never get out well you get out and what were they arresting you for was it the the uh the passport um what did the the the money wasn't I mean what did they leave 4 000 or something like that right and there are airports we put um I saw the guy walking in with it in a plastic bag you know whatever people throw on the floor before they go through security there was a bit of hash this usual bits of weed but what they really wanted was um this 25 grams of heroin because that would finish me off a policeman um Australian one said was that yours yeah yeah sure it was he said I didn't think so what would you be carrying around that for I mean if it was 10 kilos I might understand but but that was enough the death penalty and was it yours no no no so where where would that come from if you do they do a sweep every afternoon at five o'clock they get tons of it right I get you know nervous passengers go up and then they change their minds and they throw it in the toilet too and were they just did do you think they believed it was yours or do you think they were just going this is we need to give him this bit no no I think they were using it hoping to that would be good to hold and maybe they could get something else find out what I was up to who I was seeing because I had met um somebody who's whose uncle was a big player right so there was there was I think they were optimistic there might be more Camp come out of it but but there wasn't but what difference did it make and I wasn't really worried about um those drugs or the death penalty I wanted to die anyway frankly my first escape plans from there had this I imagine getting out to find the Privacy to kill myself right I wanted to go to the dusa Tony Hotel I knew Which floor and where to get onto the roof I'd taken photographs from there many years before um they were you simply couldn't get a moment's piece dormitories with 150 guys in them screaming all night um we can't even take a crap in peace in the Thai prison We're Not Afraid though of what killing myself well no I mean I don't know being brutalized by the guards or the inmates so well I knew enough about Thailand to to know that it was a little more comic than than bad there were very bad things happen they used to um they've beaten people a couple of people get beaten to death every day there but it's a very big prison we have to get that in proportion I only wish they wouldn't use the food trolley to take the dead bodies out because um you know they don't clean them up um and could you speak the language or were you quite it was a quite different communication uh not really uh and the few languages that uh pitch up in my travels I always found that even if you know them it's better to pretend you don't okay um because they'll talk about you behind your back you know certainly didn't live it on there was I I just couldn't see any point I'd gone to such elaborate precautions on this trip um it just shouldn't have happened and I even got away from the airport and still it happened oh all that confidence that I'll figure a way out I didn't care anymore I just had enough um and I remember seeing an old guy there if you had to go to court they put change on you and um you'd line up on the ground now this old guy I was looking at him because I don't know why a big soundtrack went past he had the presence of mind to push his head under that sand truck and oh it twisted it around popped like a watermelon being dropped on the ground oh my God guys very annoyed told the trustees to get that thing away out of sight was that nice thing called it I thought you Brave bastard you yeah you've got the guts to do that was it not quite a disturbing thing to witness no it was shocking because if you haven't seen it kind of thing up close and I happen to be looking um it was uh but that that's how I felt about it but I was saved In The End by a con man and people say a lot of bad things about economy they do yes they do and they uh you can't be trusted uh they are rottenness and they will cheat you just because they're the Scorpion that's in their nature uh but sometimes they're just what you need and this rather smooth um Bostonian American um who spoke Thai and really knew his way around and I you know I thought the somewhere in this huge prison there'd be an enclave of rich and corrupt foreigners with loads of money and there'd be luxuries it wasn't there was nobody of any importance in there you know a couple of big sacrifices had been made but um a couple of very rich policemen who were in the hospital in intensive care but other than that it was it was just um the people who reached the absolute bottom Drifters in Asia who did run after run and then got sacrificed to the machine they'd get about four jobs a big Syndicate there operating careers had run four times bang they'd shot them to the police they'd be gone oh God they will turn told the same story and it was Joe it was this guest house it was such and such identical and um and and at this point had you been sentenced to death had you received oh no no no I I was trying to avoid that yeah once I came to my senses because the the Boston con had so many wonderful schemes medical thing to get me bail and know some way of a escape with a go to court I get snatched from there I had villains come over and and scope out the court too because there was a way I thought of getting out of there from the lift that took you up to the the building uh snatched from the middle as you go down changed into a different set of clothes but they all got scared thing about um some of our most loved uh and fearless villains they're pretty good in the local manner but you throw them into a place like that where people carry machine guns and shoot at will just for the hell of it not so confident they like the upper edge of being snakes um so I couldn't convince anybody to really help and it was just as well um and two and a half years passed there in this prison it's a long time it was I sort of perked up a little bit pulled myself together started exercising um got a couple of ATM cards over hadn't my favorite god um he was in charge of the the building bought myself a room renovated um so you had you bought a room within the prison that was just for you rented that's rented right you know and is that an official thing that you're allowed to do right there are places in the world where it's official right but you had an influx of money that you could pay for special treats you could survive there on um less than 500 pounds a month and be king oh wow was this the 70s or the 80s now by the way we're into um 90 495 19 the 495 because what's reported about you is that during the 80s you were a multi-millionaire um is that accurate um now what do we call a multi-millionaires a young halfway with a million and a quarter on a glass coffee table and looks around the living room and thinks I've got to get a sofa one of these days um oh goes to the car auctions in the morning buys a big yank tank with a 427 Chevy engine in it um drives it around makes his own car parking spaces you know we're smashing the front in backing the other one pushing the other cars out of the way um oh stoned off my head most of the time uh if I wasn't stunned enough I'd take a few mandracks just to colludes icing on the cake um so I didn't take care of the money and the money didn't take care of me so I guess I'm like the reason I the reason I asked was because it must have been quite a stark change going from a very rich existence to basically somewhere where you basically couldn't pay for anything initially and it was a very poor existence but I guess from what you're saying there it's not like you felt like you were Rich at the time um I've made that contrast a few times when I had my first big arrest I couldn't as I was in a cold near lightless cell of blue stone and horse hair mattress about two inches thick and wrecking a piss I would think back to the night before when I had my important to tell in huge bed and Irish linen sheets and swimming pool out there and um and we had to kind of shake off the contrast but that rubber banding must must have been hard to take because it's you're going from basically the aspiration of almost everyone where you're talking about just buying cars outright and having a swimming pool to a piss stinking bed you know it must be it was you know it's odd thing about it was providing I could see a way out a work a way out I didn't so much mind oh okay um I really trained myself to expect my whatever world I built up and and this happened several times I've done it five times had a new identity New Life new surroundings even new people and dang they're gone and every time it got worse um and there was even Thailand was desperately important because even though it was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it um you know I was somebody that nobody minded killing um so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah there's nothing like the prospect of being executed by a machine gun which is the way they did it God is that what it would have been wow yeah you know oh they'd have three guards all with a bit of string on the trigger and they'd all pull it once so that none of them could be condemned in the Buddhist sense of sin oh they don't even actually right I see it caused the bullet that finished you off oh I see so you're in the Thai prison you've been sentenced to uh rather unpleasant death penalty um how did you start coming up with this famous plan for escaping um desperation it was the last plan that looked like it was going to work um there were probably about 20 plans considered um everything from being the prison held I've since found out it holds 22 000 people oh my God in 10 sub prisons uh there's a women's section there's a young offenders there's a special reminder a drug unit all of that um just a wild place it has everything it even had a prisoner-run shop where you could extract you could borrow money against your account and cash anyway um one of the plans involved being welded into a VW Combi van in the prisons Auto Workshop which would be picked up early Monday morning and I'd be driven out and that another one was um there were several courtroom ones and you couldn't just pay your way out no no it's just you could pay to have a mobile phone which in those days was a rare thing but they were around um you could pay for a bottle of clong uh whiskey you could pay I'm sure you could pay to get a a girl in your room if you could work out what a room was that a whole section full of ladyboys there and got a building full of them they used to open it up on Saturdays so um you could pay for anything but not to leave they couldn't cover that and they couldn't trust each other you would need 25 30 different guards paid off and and the gods of visitors I mean too many guides no that wouldn't work and they looked at it as a kind of betrayal only if I saw two escapes attempts there one group of uh straight kids and a Singaporean got out of their cell incredibly turned themselves into the sleeping God when they'd all lied to each other about what they didn't have you know the ropes and ways out because they're it was so outraged that they'd spoiled the guys jobs they beat them to death slowly tortured them over three months to death having put them in little code lockers the soy they call them drag them out in elephant chains every day and batter them senseless uh internal bleeding usually did it um look I've got a bowl of rice and a painting to poo in that was it um even the water was it was just too horrible so if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off even my Swedish friends Sten the Viking he backed out at the last minute I couldn't get people to go with me all the other plants had fallen to bits because they depended on other people I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars and I needed equipment for that and here's a really important point I guess as bad as this world is you've got to try to find good people if you ask somebody if you asked your friend yeah and and you're finished you'll manage to get a phone call and say friend it's been here um I need you to get um I don't know four hacksaw blades and cut them into the dowel rods of a of a poster and then paint it all up and send it in a huge package with this that cable ties gaffer tape but disguise all that how many people are going to do it turn around wouldn't believe it Ben called me what his neck yeah he's screwed but anyway he wouldn't believe but he wants me to do this that now people don't do it but Michael on the other hand our business partner wouldn't even let me explain he hadn't heard from me in 18 months he said David don't explain I'm sure we could get cut off tell me the important part now where do I have to be and what do I have to bring no that's a friend um and so I've always tried to do the same for the others that I've known like that um but um I did get the equipment together that I needed and everything um about escapes from a big prison is not like your hope it's going to be you know I turned it out walked around the streets and it had streets inside it um and timed it with my trusty Casio and it was so I knew roughly how long it would take to get me but the night's a different world I'm a prisoner I'm only used to noise during the day even the fan chopping around in the Cell at night it's so quiet everything I did squeaked and rattled and twisted I came across a panel that had to be a nail had to come out and that and they'll protest it and scream their wrench out of the way it took um uh seven or eight worlds uh sorry seven or eight walls to cross over I say worlds because they really were every building was a different thing and I got lost and I went past the terminal AIDS Ward that building hundreds of guys all die and I could smell it before I got there because this necrotic Rotting Flesh and I couldn't resist looking in I'm carrying this huge long ladder made out of bamboo poles and fake picture frames gaffer taped along the center [Music] um and I looked up and I saw all these little faces in the Moonlight wrapped in so much pain and despair they didn't have the energy to cry out to the guards if they'd been in any other prisoners they would have the trustees there were absolute scum of the earth had whistled little uniforms sell the drugs one day and the rest of the guys for it the next all of that um and it was only by um well I only got to the outer wall by Dawn and if somebody had been with me I wouldn't have made it either you wouldn't have no imagine I've taken all night to get there and at each point where this something was unexpected I've had to dream up something and I get a little basic toolkit and I sometimes I'd have to sacrifice part of my ladder to make a hook to pull down barbed wire and the technique for using the thing was awkward you had to prop it walk up drop down the other side so you're twisting over the walls like that manual is entirely barbed wire so I had to go underneath it covered in mud the the last one was really too high and there was a Mars bar Creek the the moat that ran around I did you know if I was with somebody else we'd be arguing wouldn't we oh Spa Creek oh it was full of turds bombing around it was caught out of the sewer yeah you did ask um illustrative okay we're just gonna take a quick break from the show to talk about a sponsor of this episode better help better help is an online Counseling Service which connects people to therapists and counselors I'm joined by one of our producers bryony is counseling something you've had experience with do you know what it's interesting because when I was growing up the same kind of challenges in life would happen but people wouldn't necessarily go to therapy or talk about therapy and I feel like since uh maybe my late teens early 20s people are starting to go to therapy and talking about it and I have definitely used it in my life and it's been massively beneficial same and do you because I think one of the things that people often mistake they think it's just for big things yeah but what's the other experience of that thing I think life always throws you know small challenges and large challenges and sometimes the big things need talking about but actually you know starting a new school or starting a new job can rile up that same level of anxiety and it's just really helpful to be able to talk to someone about it who is completely impartial not involved in your life and just kind of a safe space I guess to just say whatever you want to say you completely agree as the world's largest therapy service better help as much 3 million people with professionally licensed and vetted therapists available 100 online plus it's affordable just fill out a brief questionnaire to match with a therapist if things aren't clicking you can easily switch to a new therapist anytime it couldn't be simpler no waiting rooms no traffic no endless searching for the right therapist learn more and save 10 of your first month at betterhelp.com minutes with that's betterhelp help help.com minutes with um now there was one way of oh Beyond marsburg create this a foot and a half of land before this huge huge wall you've got to get a ladder that's too heavy to carry too imbalanced to do anything with but you've got a bit of rope how do you get it to the other side of Mars bar which has all got tangled barb wire in that so it'll catch get it in place and up against the wall when you've got no ground to to walk on now there is a way and uh I guess people have to listen to me describe it either to you or in my book okay fine but too long to tell here sure but um I could see the glow of dawn as I got to the top which had electricity running through it too just to make it the top of the wall dead yeah yeah wow but um my friend who um was in there a bit of a technician is to belong to the anarchist Society in in Britain how would you belong to a society that has rules when you anyway putting that aside he did tell me that it would only be 240 volts but to be careful um and just managed to get over that and because the original plan was to um oh there was an outer moat beyond that of 20 meters I had my clothes ready to go into a plastic bag swim the moat but just as well I didn't um because all it turned out all the guards houses were over the other side of that moat this would not be a place to go but I cleaned myself up threw some clothes on and I one of the jobs that I didn't do but I was supposed to be doing was working in the Umbrella Factory so I paid a local boy to do it um I've got a pop-up umbrella from there I thought you know you really get a perspective about I want to just simple discrimination but being an outsider a foreigner the way sometimes people feel picked upon you know we were called the white trash and we were in in Chains and everything so I knew I had to cover my face in the popular did it and I managed to get to a place where a passport was hidden and to the airport and still had a working ATM card to get me out of the country into Singapore so did you end up with the umbrella did you walk out the front gate yeah I did I had some long trousers on now in their prisoners are not allowed to wear them so I had some khaki pants I thought they might as I walked around the the narrow path to the front gate it's still mote but a little Bridge I thought another figure it's a guard arriving late and sneaking in and I did I felt like Ripley an alien uh looking at thinking lucky lucky this is where it all ends doesn't it and I'm thinking that every moment and looking up and there was just enough light rain to justify the umbrella yeah I would learn later that was actually the not a rain from the gods but the spittle of their laughter because they had worse things in mind for me later on I mean it's so it's you know how many people are you aware how many people had escaped from that prison up to that point was it some every year or was it very infrequent none um the ties sometimes ran away when they were doing the gardens in Chains outside but Escape From Within um I'd known of in 20 years people could recall two attempts no foreigners um and they didn't trust the foreigners that's why they put you on the third floor right quite rightly yes and and how long had it taken you from like the beginning of the uh I started cutting at um 11 45 I paid a lot to get a light switch in there normally the lights are on all the time um okay and I said to my favorite guard oh yeah Ponting or whatever his name was I can't sleep with that thing I'll put a light switch in um um now they didn't say it as corruption or bribe taking they thought I'm doing this nice guy a favor and I'll be lucky because of it that's a very big thing over there you know if I get caught I'm unlucky then so they can batter me to death I mean sure it's kind of self-justifies any action that a human being might take so he started cutting around eight for 11 45 11 45 okay it's quite close through one bar by two in the morning oh God stencia listen we'll go on the next note I looked around and Kevin the American from Hawaii I didn't even know this was happening uh Mirage the Indian I know he's going to talk the next morning he was kakaria LA pantaloni right in the cell never mind holding out and not saying anything he would have it would have been finished I never would have made it and I guess I could have seen the missing bars potentially but I learned later on I actually caught up with somebody who was in there Scottish guy um he was there for selling ecstasy to the Two well-off Sons and Daughters of wealthy policemen anyway um he remembers they the guards couldn't figure that I'd left oh um he said David they ran around the the prison calling out your name it was Daniel Westlake while I was there Daniel Daniel they okay that somebody drew their attention to the cut bar in there yeah my Scottish friend said they the gods wanted they thought that okay he's got out he's angry about something uh Daniel but he's not actually he'll never get out he couldn't get it they never found the the ladder down the front wall until much much later so for um uh uh only one of them said oh we better check the airport they sent a couple of guys down there um just a little bit late and you were gone by then only just and remember man you've got a passport from a Chinese connection that you barely know but kind of like the cut of his jib but are you gonna put your life on the line on that and at every moment you're handing it over you know like the look of it yeah they don't like the look of it they're typing it up and you're thinking they got onto the computer have they done that bit uh have they entered my arrival was this I knew it was freshly stolen or sold off was only a few weeks old uh I mean not new was had only gone missing a few weeks earlier so it was still good but very nerve-wracking and I didn't have a photo I had to use my old um uh radio operators license that had a photograph in it to get reproduced into this thing so it was a bit grainy um and even on the plane it was delay and takeoff oh God and a mumbling Captain oh sorry um we we have a thing with one passenger I just asked what thing exactly soon enough thwomp doors to manual oh but I've got an hour you know looking at this passport I don't like it get to Singapore but I make it through so you got to Singapore yeah but you did end up going back to prison not a Thai prison but a different prison he's suggesting uh I did something wrong well I'm hoping you're going to tell me um no well okay uh I didn't stay in Singapore long because um I sat there in the hotel room unable to digest food not prepared by my own cook sure I in the hotel room in Singapore I realized you could work out who had left that day if they'd flown my air by simply going to the airport and children you work it out yourselves at home you check everybody who's left separate the foreigners hmm go a step further let's keep the Canadian and American the British the Australian New Zealand all the English-speaking passport Society um just to you know reduce the numbers take those names check with the embassies any of these names belong to lost or stolen passports that have been reported yeah five of them because that's Bangkok you know not the only Mischief maker there but nonetheless um they probably knew I could be who was I Charles McClintock hmm sorry Charles I had to borrow your passport but it was an essential cause but you're not wanted anymore of course are you no but I did get an unwelcome knock at the door some years ago uh by the police who um would it be to go excuse me Westminster Court known for the terrorist cases extradition or parking fights wow I'd lift the car anywhere lately so it was going to be one of the other two and it was extradition to Thailand I fought that case for two years and um it was difficult um but managed to effectively win in the end so the ties have dropped that one and I can't be taken back there I'm not wanted anywhere um I can nobody can do what they want but um I I'm not I haven't got anything pending I'm not in business I'm a bit cautious I even got sent something in the the mail a few years ago and I thought it was some gift from some halfway ambitious wombat in in Pakistan sending me a bit of dope thinking oh yeah there's a gift you might like that connection made no I mean people had my address all around the world ever since Danny Dyer um it turned out to be more complicated than that but um very dangerous for me to walk into a courtroom so I don't even imagine you're me and knock at the door oh here's something for you Ben you don't like the look of it you refuse it you're in court no matter why did you refuse that was it your name no you was up The Jig was up proof ladies and gentlemen oh you accept it ah you accepted it proof ladies and gentlemen wife saying to me Jeanette and whom I met in Pakistan years ago and she was there to fish out her husband on a two-ton hash deal he didn't make it anyway um she said throw the thing away I'm thinking in court again ladies and gentlemen he threw the stuff away I can't win so very cautious about all that kind of stuff um fair enough but I take it you won't be going for a holiday to Thailand anytime soon I didn't think so okay so how many do you know off the top of your head of your life how many years of your life have you spent in prison ultimately I did add it up once I'm 66 now and I suppose I've spent um but 22 years the thing that occurs to me and I met you before and I thought the same thing is like you obviously extremely intelligent extremely resourceful it can't be well but well anyway but do you regret the choices you made in terms of do you see those 22 years in prison as something you had no control over it's just the way the dice rolled or do you see them as a mistake on your part um worse than a mistake mistake suggest you didn't know uh where you were going wrong I was taking those steps into uh of a precipice that I'd defied there is no gravity I said I said I will work out something before I hit the ground um when I was It was kind of in stages when I was young it was just arrogance and and showing off and later on when everything was destroyed it was kind of I'd scraped away all of my life and would just go on um then in the third stage it was escaping away from places rebuilding up and being weakened every time it was taken away again um and do I regret it yeah I'm sure I um no you know some people say oh yeah but David just smuggled everything on Earth you scumbag you you know um think of the lives you've destroyed and the people you've heard ah and I go to start to explain that it's not quite black and white uh I mean I've had drug habits myself that I've carelessly allowed um but I thought what's the point anything I say we just sound like self-justification so well don't listen to me then you know but things that have happened that have taught me a lot it's interesting you say that because one of a lot of the comments on our well on the first video we did a lot of the comments where people saying someone needs to make a movie about this guy but a lot of the other comments were people saying he's so charismatic and likable but he must be a really dangerous person to have been involved with all these worlds for so long and um we've interviewed a couple of drug smugglers and I would say they're the ones that I've met have been the ones that probably are more someone you'd see is traditionally quite an obviously dangerous person you come across as very Charming charismatic roguish where do you see yourself on that scale do you see yourself as someone who was dangerous or do you see yourself as someone who's just moved from area to area as it occurred um kind of like this a dangerous I suppose what most people see that and you know if somebody was a problem for me would I find the best option to have them killed or not but really there always was a kind of Vestige of that's a failure if you can't think of anything better than to have them killed then then then what are you doing there's a million clever ways of solving your problems and that besides which there's always going to be people you can't kill everybody um not only that who killed the killers that you've got to do the killing you know you know they always say that about the quiet ones and all of that but it was the people who bothered to put up a smoke screen um they're establishing a um later Alibi a courtroom personality but I met him he didn't seem bothered by all of that why would he have him killed and those are the ones that um seem to be more dangerous and if I was such a dangerous person like that I certainly been absolute fool to break from that mold and say otherwise wouldn't it very true David it's great to see you again thank you so much for coming in always a pleasure yeah and I've Got a Feeling we'll be seeing you again at some point as well it's possible it does may cross thank you I'll be like oh my God they're in my head they they know they know that was a song and so they put that song on the radio and it's all everything revolves around me or you know and this happened well sometimes happens today you know I'm I'm thinking of someone in my head someone under there like on the street	suit so you had no pockets there was after that and her death I felt like there was nothing that could affect me you're wrong about these things you know we're human but I got out and they were there they even visited me to say we'll be on you when you get out the police yeah we enjoyed the old days didn't you yeah I said pretending you know and just to make the point that they were there when I got out um I I'd done a whole lot of Woodwork in the prison in the last place I was at carving intricate things making these really great trick Chinese boxes with beeswax they intercepted the van that was taking it from the prison back to my house and smashed it all to pieces I put it in a box just to say don't think that we will never be here we can do what we want so I decided to leave the country I was um how old am I by then let's work it out yeah uh I started all this Mischief when I was about 18 got arrested at 22. 23 uh um 16 years 17 years either under surveillance or in bad prisons got out and I'm under surveillance again um so how old so you're number 37 about 37. so that's already you know that's a big chunk of Life there but you've lost quite a lot of it to prison or surveillance	-2	6	-5	yeah we enjoyed the old days didn't you	you're wrong about these things you know	2,3,-2	0,-1,4	2	3	-2	0	-1	4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyZyHHexx7s	4,101	oyZyHHexx7s	2022-12-07 00:00:00	even though I was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off I couldn't get people to go with me I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars [Music] it's great to have you back David obviously we've met before but for anyone who doesn't know who you are for new listeners or new viewers could you give us a brief introduction to what you are famous for well I suppose uh most well known for uh having escaped to prison in Thailand in Bangkok uh the biggest one they have there clong Prim it uh wasn't something I did frivolously I was going to be executed within a couple of weeks so it seemed like a good time to leave okay now um we're going to get into that in a bit more detail but one thing that I remember about you from last time is you're the most incredible talker and we took away the inter the initial interview we've done with you and ended up having to make it into two long episodes because you have a lot of different very colorful uh experiences so do forgive me if I Jimmy us through oh no I can understand that I mean the only place I never talk is in the police station I always like some of my uh work colleagues took um what was it one slap to get them talking but five to shut them up oh okay so let's go right back to the beginning um you were born in the UK and then I believe you emigrated to Australia well um it was all a family thing yes I was born in basewater in London I spent the first few years of my life then uh there but my parents broke up divorced and I went with my mother to Australia with my older sister so I don't have any really very early memories of London apart from some old eight millimeter movie footage of me learning to walk in Hyde Park my dad was waving a five pound note in front of my face and I was making every effort to grab it I continued that behavior for many many years afterwards returned to Australia um finished some schooling um got really contrasting jobs I worked in an adult Agency for a while um but also before that I was got a job in a cinema now it was the and under literally an underground place but it was there that I got introduced to a bunch of crooks um some of the girls there had boyfriends that I used to run down with um strange boxes or bits of money or fur coats and then wink at me bolt out the back door pursued by often policemen undercover ones of course whom we'd misdirect somewhere but that Circle they were um safe crackers and they really didn't trust Outsiders and didn't much like the sound of me but because of I demonstrated a couple of things by being look everybody was really very anti-authority then I I don't mean hostile but for people now they they wouldn't have experienced that in the uh late 60s 70s we were so snotty and arrogant we really thought we were going to change the world and that um the laws were all nothing and the way to change them was to break them well that was the kind of vanity we had so um when I got to know the safe crackers uh better there was something really interesting I mean I didn't like the idea you know stealing things seemed a bit tacky but on the other hand they kind of all needed the money from the from their backgrounds and everything but that wasn't so much the the interest it was the technicalities of getting into these things okay um they used to drill through the top um having anchored it with the drill with clamps and and put a kind of little lens inside a cystoscope used in medicine and watch the the wheels turning around this is the old kind of old-fashioned Hollywood style it was yeah and um behind the safe were three discs and you had to line them up and they'd once they got in they'd take the door with them so that the opposition the safe makers wouldn't know how they'd got in and it was a a constant battle between the manufacturers and them because they've come across new safes which had Special Metals in it that was mixed like a a crunchy nut bar very hard metals very soft ones so the drill bit would slip on them snap and you got a sense that this was almost like a game where um they would try something then try to beat them and they were very loyal to each other um they they never spoke out of school as it were um when I got involved with them I'd only have to if I had trouble I don't have to make one phone call and people would appear out of nowhere and I thought yeah this this is kind of better than the treacherous boys school that I I grew up in and how old were you at this point um 19 years old 19. so were you thinking you were making a conscious decision to move into illegal activities or at that point in time and at that point in the world did it feel like more of a kind of a bit of roguish fun would you say I was drawn to it anyway because it was interesting and um I didn't really have a lot of fear I think sometimes what we do or don't do is depending on how scary it seems yeah agreed um I was born with a low resting heart rate as they say you know if it's below 70 you're a risk taker I don't know why that is when the safe crackers retired they put some of their money into growing little crops of weed and so on but profit margin is is only through importing because like the price difference is cheap in the source countries expensive where it sells so because they couldn't do it they were almost throwing it down like a challenge like we don't know anybody who can do this and I thought well I traveled a lot um I didn't think it was going to be impossible um I thought the odds were in my phone and I looked it up I went to the library and sort of researched it a bit and where were you thinking which country Well they um they were very keen to get some um hashish from India or Nepal or somewhere okay I could see um it's bulky and there's packing problems so um they funded me and off I sailed now the operation my first operation was so deplorably bad I'm barely 20 years old I my cunning plan which involved a big piece of exported Machinery which had weights in it so the weights would come out the cash would go in it would weigh the same being returned and it was a piece of Television equipment or something that went South immediately when I didn't realize that I would have to pay a huge deposit in duty to even bring it in as a demo machine so forget that I ended up in short meeting a guy in a money exchange section of a bank I was there because I ran out and I had to send asking for more from the boys and I met him and he wasn't involved in any of this but he soon became that just he managed to get me six kilos of hash I took the 1952 ancient Grundig radio from his parents house the Shelf there guttered the thing like a fish wrapped it up and he had to get cling film in those days think of this before you travel arriving with a suitcase full of cling film doesn't look good I suppose but uh wedged it in there and then just flew back to Sydney now you can imagine what happened well just before we get on to what happened you know one thing that strikes me is what year was would this have been this was uh 77 77 so it's amazing think that back then if someone was going to India for the first time now they could go on Google Maps they could research it or they could find out who they could find phone numbers contacts they could be put in contact with people before they've even set off whereas you must have at that age at that time been going in slightly blind you know touching down in a foreign country that you didn't know well no contacts was that not quite daunting well what was more um troubling with um how everything would fail and then I'd have to um you know come up with another plan what context somebody I knew um um there were no bank robber who joined the hare krishnas and fled to India right and I had his name and and the ashram in Delhi where where he was was supposed to have been uh I didn't really catch up with him on that trip but okay sure so so then you get back to Australia with your radio that is now full to the brim with and I get stopped you you did get stopped okay I could stop because uh I'm I'm on a British passport um and it's the only trip I've ever done and I'm that age I'd stop me oh fatherly type was at the Customs desk now the the systems were different in those days um it was Sydney too which is very and certainly was very relaxed back then right he opened the suitcase uh there was nothing in there except a pair of socks there's a towel wrapping up this massive radio which he lifted up so it was buckled at the sides little red packets poking out oh it smelled like a hedgehog for a patchouliers okay not much of a disguise um he let me go he uh put it back looked around to make sure that none of his workmates were watching him being so soft um and then turned to me and said you're going back there you're going to do this again [Music] all right you can take your we'll call it a radio shall we get out of here what he thought I realized later was that he didn't want the whole grammar of the day arresting me filling out papers and it would have been a a long time plus I guess being a dad he thought if I he's obviously an idiot you're right if I send him into Gladiator Academy or it wasn't really like that in those days but certainly contact center um the prison what am I doing um well I guess uh he was hopeful you know I whilst out of there must have smuggling me but I experienced then what um I got years later which was kind of a real Downer after you know having got nowhere with The Hare krishnas and and cultivated the shoeshine boys and had my money stolen at Amex uh by some Scallywags in Delhi all sorts of Little Adventures over there in India and nonetheless made it it's kind of like that's all there is to it I I didn't really want to give it to anyone um sort of felt like you didn't have a big moment of no a bit of money that came earlier that's handy right uh I paid back what I owed and settled up for for the next thing so but once that was started when you sorry I interrupted you go oh I was just going to say it to finish it even though they'd funded me the guys were very surprised to see me back but at all at all oh you made it oh because some of them say oh you'll just run away with it uh even if that's what he's doing who knows what he's doing you know and then I could see sitting around you can imagine there's like a table full of well like three guys and then a kind of Darkness shrouded over that room I thought uh it's not valuable enough to kill me you know what what is this mood why did you bring that well that's what you've been talking about yeah you could have loaded that with cane or smack or something you guys we say nothing but terrible things about a class or heavy drugs that don't want to know about it right and I could read then that wait a minute there we're all might be guys together and having fun getting into the safe and whatnot but there was a kind of different it was something a very strong lesson I'd have to be thoughtful about that um there could be times where things didn't work out not necessarily that my safety was at risk I didn't see it that way but I knew that there were Ruthless People right okay yeah so you got an insight into a mindset that had been a bit below the surface it was there I just chose not to see it but um I then went on to you know refine everything and Vary everything and then did you after that first time did you were you still working sort of for them or did you immediately well when you wake up on your own when things um I picked up and there was enough money around out of uh out of strategy rather than just being a nice guy I gave my partners a kind of thank you bonus from the next thing that I did but I did that all myself right so it was almost like a yeah separation and I wanted to go back to the my hippie friends anyway they were a little less it wasn't that they were scary but but that didn't last because they were maybe friends might be all right but they will certainly careless and stupid but from from that point onwards after that initial Journey was that you then into the world of smuggling I thought this won't last forever you only need one setback and that changes it I probably made quite a lot of money and I could have got out but and I should have gotta you know I have couriers a leak from one of the the couriers brought the police to me and here was the problem with it it was at first I scattered now I was married to my first wife then clearly Italian girl her dad had restaurants I grabbed her I had a secret drawer with extra passports in it some money ended up four plane Journeys later in um off the Bahamas had the skipper of a day rent yacht and take me out to an island and nobody had ever been on before it was empty sat there on a towel I thought hmm the level of surveillance I had means it's quite a big operation they're funded and I checked with a lawyer before the bigger the money they spent the more determined they'll be stay away or go back I mean I don't know why would anybody do this uh well I wasn't broke um I didn't have to there was no pressure on me the more I went through the problems the more attractive the whole thing is uh she didn't like it much well again do you think because it was a puzzle to be solved because um arrogance really we've gone from basically someone who was kind of mildly interested in making a group of people meeting a group of um safe hackers to someone who pulled off their first thing and then we've jumped to someone who has people working for them and and now is no longer taking the risk themselves now the police are on to you and you're on this desert island well small island and you're thinking about going back into it was this like a turning point in your life in terms of going you know because the other option I suppose was to go straight but were you just more it was that just not an option for you I'd gone to my lawyer Ralph he said look this is what I picked up because I my travel agent had tipped me to a couple of detectives that come in he traveled again while I was in on the phone okay uh actually they're all innocent really yeah you know and and gave him a long list of names um they wanted travel details for and a telephone number which I traced uh to um a private office building which had been rented by state and federal police they were so distrusting of their own they didn't want to even run this thing from um regular police headquarters my lawyer said well what you sure it's you said Ralph look at the list of names there's 30 there I'm 26 of them passports are a lot easier to get back then than there now so you had 26 aliases that you were traveling on yeah right okay um and I described where they were he said David they are funded well they're not bear this in mind but although I what they won't get me with anything they're funded you think they're going to walk away after a year and say oh sorry boss you spend a million dollars and uh nothing doing they don't work like that but this is how stubborn I was I thought because he said the only thing you can do is disappear for at least a couple of years and then you can come back if that's what you want and of course I had justifications for it I thought okay I'll I'll build up a bit more money and then I'll disappear but um it was only after things went terribly badly that I realized I shouldn't play like this anymore what it was they um because the challenge just kept coming so now so did you go back to Australia I went back to Australia and and when I retired within three months right but they weren't waiting for you to arrest you or no no they wanted they wanted something solid okay [Music] um I won't go into the long machinations of it all but um somebody we knew uh was getting things from a Thai Courier and he got arrested he sold us out to the police so that that The Courier would now come to us and I always have some solid evidence right he would bring things but we got away with that because that was another challenge but the police got tired of all this arrested me no drugs of course so it was a difficult case the worst kind of case is that where there's no solid evidence and in a way it's better to go to court where you've got a Smoking Gun and a dead body on the ground because at least you know where you are but where there's nothing tangible and it's conspiracies and this was a huge trial six months long what is that 119 Witnesses 6 000 pages of uh telephone intercept massive thing won't made it worse too and I think this was um would change things for me um the pressure was put on for confessions but it'd be silly to confess and you can't confess on somebody else's behalf can you that's not nice um lots of the family were arrested even my mother was taken and it went oh wow just to put pressure on uh did she know what you did oh she had an idea right okay I mean I used to have bin liners full of money I'd leave behind the fridge yeah you don't get that in the cinema do you not done not a very good day you know uh because they arrested so many people now when they arrested our wives and my business partner Michael his wife just had a baby it was we had to do a deal here I didn't want to but I was going to say I said to Michael look I know you don't like it but we'll play to it get the girls out of trouble we'll Escape that's a good challenge that way [Music] um but unfortunately um the intelligence section put an arsonist Informer in with the girls to get some information her fire was lit uh burnt down the women's prison and my wife and my business partner's wife was were killed uh that's awful and so the Informer that they put in there yeah why did they pick an arsonist for Daniel writer name was I don't know why I remember that after 40 years God so that's quite a big that was oh and and just uh to make things worse the story put about town to scare the careers into talking because they wouldn't speak was that we'd we were killing off all the witnesses and starting with our own family where does that come from um we ended up in a super max prison nightmarish electronic zoo with two inch glass and electronic doors and insane inmates held 48 death rate 27 people a year died in that little supermax going to court in Chains with a SWAT team taking it it was so so much Michael fell to pieces he was just a wreck he didn't make it uh he survived the jail but died when he got out the only way I could survive all of that was to strip away everything I you know I found myself in the supermax concrete everything's concrete the bed everything there's no everything's still just with the tape player from my lure listening to the the tapes the bug tapes the microphones in my house I could play back my life for the last six months clearly you're moving from room to room taking telephone calls she was crying about something I didn't know what I never know and David that's gone immerse yourself in the worst that they have you will not survive this otherwise trial sort of went not so good acquitted of most things but convicted enough 10 years difficult imprisonment but I the only way I could deal with it was to say did I want revenge that was more my fault I brought this about I got her in there I mean a family of a very kind to me about it considering I wouldn't be but it doesn't matter in Chains and super Mech strip it all away it is nothing everyone is a potential enemy everything it just nothing mattered win the day win the night I mean this is a place we had to fill in a book to get some toilet paper the showers were in front of them in a glass box um if you went on a visit they'd zip you up and lock you in a suit so you had no pockets there was after that and her death I felt like there was nothing that could affect me you're wrong about these things you know we're human but I got out and they were there they even visited me to say we'll be on you when you get out the police yeah we enjoyed the old days didn't you yeah I said pretending you know and just to make the point that they were there when I got out um I I'd done a whole lot of Woodwork in the prison in the last place I was at carving intricate things making these really great trick Chinese boxes with beeswax they intercepted the van that was taking it from the prison back to my house and smashed it all to pieces I put it in a box just to say don't think that we will never be here we can do what we want so I decided to leave the country I was um how old am I by then let's work it out yeah uh I started all this Mischief when I was about 18 got arrested at 22. 23 uh um 16 years 17 years either under surveillance or in bad prisons got out and I'm under surveillance again um so how old so you're number 37 about 37. so that's already you know that's a big chunk of Life there but you've lost quite a lot of it to prison or surveillance well at no point now were you like okay and I wasn't a normal person uh really when I got out because of the experience of prison I'd already stripped most of Myself Away to deal with the death of the Superman yeah and and watching people be burnt to death in the place which was frequent somebody had contact glue pulled all over him and then satellite oh God Gods came in and the other one's standing there with a Tire swinging it around to make sure to let him burn let him burn Jesus Barry's name was testicles swollen like apples but black okay he died two hours later in hospital anyway um that was regular account to deal with that I'd already strip things away so when I got a little apartment when I got out and my mother had arranged things for me when they were there when they'd leave rude messages on my answer machine when they'd be behind me everywhere I thought all right I remember this David it never ends if you want to survive go back to the way you were you know in in the super max Anything Can Happen anytime but I didn't want to live like that um I got a fresh passport and most elaborate means um I could spend a week explaining how that came into existence but I went to Thailand to pick up some money I had three days there it was just before Christmas I left at that time on purpose so that they maybe I thought maybe it's their weak point that they want to have families in their life just at Christmas I've parked my mum's car and and left the keys somewhere for her nobody knew were you not meant to leave the country no no no licenses oh I see we're just going to take a minute here to talk about a sponsor of this show which is manscaped we were sent a package to try out by manscaped but Conor one of our producers is already a fan of the brand I believe yeah absolutely I've been using manscape for a little while now and Ben as you know it's that time of year people start asking you what you want for Christmas and I would say that a great gift for a man especially one that might have everything is the manscape performance package 4.0 so what's in that so you get the lawnmower 4.0 electric trimmer you get some anti-chafe boxer shorts which I can vouch for as well as a couple of other grooming products that smell great fantastic well it sounds like a five-star review from uconnor absolutely so Connor you were talking about the performance package there's loads of other great gift ideas such as the hygiene bundle all available at manscape.com com and all gifts that men will genuinely love to receive this Christmas if you are a listener of this podcast you get 20 off and free shipping all you have to do is go to manscape.com and use the code minutes that's manscape.com m-i-n-u-t-e-s minutes um so why are we doing that the risk is it worth it I didn't want to play anymore right I wanted to uh see if I could have a something resembling like a a real life just to find some corner of the world plan was to to return to London and oh so you were leaving forever I'm leaving forever okay I see nobody knew it um I had a couple of hundred thousand in Thailand I thought um which I returned to pick up um now I suppose people say this Crooks always say this most unusual circumstances led to my arrest well they were but then again they always are aren't they or you wouldn't be telling the story or you wouldn't have been arrested but um the USDA was involved lots of people lots of players uh no real drugs are found uh they did an airport sweep and listed me up for like an ounce of something and a false passport or two the money I had just disappeared into pockets but those when I arrived there I felt so free I knew this identity was good I just like floating on air really I slipped out of my protective mode you know that when we stick to the plan and all right you don't want to leave I should have even stayed there for six months just get some sensible view of the world but I I didn't uh and as I went to the airport I could see they were all around me and I melted back into the crowd and disappeared again I thought well that serves me right for changing that attitude I'd had from back in super max and I just glaze over concentrate on the details which I needed to do because when I went to make a phone call later at the travel agency uh waiting it was so depressing being thrown into the Thai prison and I had some idea what they'd be like um people I'd known had been arrested there I knew this much it never won a case you never get out well you get out and what were they arresting you for was it the the uh the passport um what did the the the money wasn't I mean what did they leave 4 000 or something like that right and there are airports we put um I saw the guy walking in with it in a plastic bag you know whatever people throw on the floor before they go through security there was a bit of hash this usual bits of weed but what they really wanted was um this 25 grams of heroin because that would finish me off a policeman um Australian one said was that yours yeah yeah sure it was he said I didn't think so what would you be carrying around that for I mean if it was 10 kilos I might understand but but that was enough the death penalty and was it yours no no no so where where would that come from if you do they do a sweep every afternoon at five o'clock they get tons of it right I get you know nervous passengers go up and then they change their minds and they throw it in the toilet too and were they just did do you think they believed it was yours or do you think they were just going this is we need to give him this bit no no I think they were using it hoping to that would be good to hold and maybe they could get something else find out what I was up to who I was seeing because I had met um somebody who's whose uncle was a big player right so there was there was I think they were optimistic there might be more Camp come out of it but but there wasn't but what difference did it make and I wasn't really worried about um those drugs or the death penalty I wanted to die anyway frankly my first escape plans from there had this I imagine getting out to find the Privacy to kill myself right I wanted to go to the dusa Tony Hotel I knew Which floor and where to get onto the roof I'd taken photographs from there many years before um they were you simply couldn't get a moment's piece dormitories with 150 guys in them screaming all night um we can't even take a crap in peace in the Thai prison We're Not Afraid though of what killing myself well no I mean I don't know being brutalized by the guards or the inmates so well I knew enough about Thailand to to know that it was a little more comic than than bad there were very bad things happen they used to um they've beaten people a couple of people get beaten to death every day there but it's a very big prison we have to get that in proportion I only wish they wouldn't use the food trolley to take the dead bodies out because um you know they don't clean them up um and could you speak the language or were you quite it was a quite different communication uh not really uh and the few languages that uh pitch up in my travels I always found that even if you know them it's better to pretend you don't okay um because they'll talk about you behind your back you know certainly didn't live it on there was I I just couldn't see any point I'd gone to such elaborate precautions on this trip um it just shouldn't have happened and I even got away from the airport and still it happened oh all that confidence that I'll figure a way out I didn't care anymore I just had enough um and I remember seeing an old guy there if you had to go to court they put change on you and um you'd line up on the ground now this old guy I was looking at him because I don't know why a big soundtrack went past he had the presence of mind to push his head under that sand truck and oh it twisted it around popped like a watermelon being dropped on the ground oh my God guys very annoyed told the trustees to get that thing away out of sight was that nice thing called it I thought you Brave bastard you yeah you've got the guts to do that was it not quite a disturbing thing to witness no it was shocking because if you haven't seen it kind of thing up close and I happen to be looking um it was uh but that that's how I felt about it but I was saved In The End by a con man and people say a lot of bad things about economy they do yes they do and they uh you can't be trusted uh they are rottenness and they will cheat you just because they're the Scorpion that's in their nature uh but sometimes they're just what you need and this rather smooth um Bostonian American um who spoke Thai and really knew his way around and I you know I thought the somewhere in this huge prison there'd be an enclave of rich and corrupt foreigners with loads of money and there'd be luxuries it wasn't there was nobody of any importance in there you know a couple of big sacrifices had been made but um a couple of very rich policemen who were in the hospital in intensive care but other than that it was it was just um the people who reached the absolute bottom Drifters in Asia who did run after run and then got sacrificed to the machine they'd get about four jobs a big Syndicate there operating careers had run four times bang they'd shot them to the police they'd be gone oh God they will turn told the same story and it was Joe it was this guest house it was such and such identical and um and and at this point had you been sentenced to death had you received oh no no no I I was trying to avoid that yeah once I came to my senses because the the Boston con had so many wonderful schemes medical thing to get me bail and know some way of a escape with a go to court I get snatched from there I had villains come over and and scope out the court too because there was a way I thought of getting out of there from the lift that took you up to the the building uh snatched from the middle as you go down changed into a different set of clothes but they all got scared thing about um some of our most loved uh and fearless villains they're pretty good in the local manner but you throw them into a place like that where people carry machine guns and shoot at will just for the hell of it not so confident they like the upper edge of being snakes um so I couldn't convince anybody to really help and it was just as well um and two and a half years passed there in this prison it's a long time it was I sort of perked up a little bit pulled myself together started exercising um got a couple of ATM cards over hadn't my favorite god um he was in charge of the the building bought myself a room renovated um so you had you bought a room within the prison that was just for you rented that's rented right you know and is that an official thing that you're allowed to do right there are places in the world where it's official right but you had an influx of money that you could pay for special treats you could survive there on um less than 500 pounds a month and be king oh wow was this the 70s or the 80s now by the way we're into um 90 495 19 the 495 because what's reported about you is that during the 80s you were a multi-millionaire um is that accurate um now what do we call a multi-millionaires a young halfway with a million and a quarter on a glass coffee table and looks around the living room and thinks I've got to get a sofa one of these days um oh goes to the car auctions in the morning buys a big yank tank with a 427 Chevy engine in it um drives it around makes his own car parking spaces you know we're smashing the front in backing the other one pushing the other cars out of the way um oh stoned off my head most of the time uh if I wasn't stunned enough I'd take a few mandracks just to colludes icing on the cake um so I didn't take care of the money and the money didn't take care of me so I guess I'm like the reason I the reason I asked was because it must have been quite a stark change going from a very rich existence to basically somewhere where you basically couldn't pay for anything initially and it was a very poor existence but I guess from what you're saying there it's not like you felt like you were Rich at the time um I've made that contrast a few times when I had my first big arrest I couldn't as I was in a cold near lightless cell of blue stone and horse hair mattress about two inches thick and wrecking a piss I would think back to the night before when I had my important to tell in huge bed and Irish linen sheets and swimming pool out there and um and we had to kind of shake off the contrast but that rubber banding must must have been hard to take because it's you're going from basically the aspiration of almost everyone where you're talking about just buying cars outright and having a swimming pool to a piss stinking bed you know it must be it was you know it's odd thing about it was providing I could see a way out a work a way out I didn't so much mind oh okay um I really trained myself to expect my whatever world I built up and and this happened several times I've done it five times had a new identity New Life new surroundings even new people and dang they're gone and every time it got worse um and there was even Thailand was desperately important because even though it was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it um you know I was somebody that nobody minded killing um so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah there's nothing like the prospect of being executed by a machine gun which is the way they did it God is that what it would have been wow yeah you know oh they'd have three guards all with a bit of string on the trigger and they'd all pull it once so that none of them could be condemned in the Buddhist sense of sin oh they don't even actually right I see it caused the bullet that finished you off oh I see so you're in the Thai prison you've been sentenced to uh rather unpleasant death penalty um how did you start coming up with this famous plan for escaping um desperation it was the last plan that looked like it was going to work um there were probably about 20 plans considered um everything from being the prison held I've since found out it holds 22 000 people oh my God in 10 sub prisons uh there's a women's section there's a young offenders there's a special reminder a drug unit all of that um just a wild place it has everything it even had a prisoner-run shop where you could extract you could borrow money against your account and cash anyway um one of the plans involved being welded into a VW Combi van in the prisons Auto Workshop which would be picked up early Monday morning and I'd be driven out and that another one was um there were several courtroom ones and you couldn't just pay your way out no no it's just you could pay to have a mobile phone which in those days was a rare thing but they were around um you could pay for a bottle of clong uh whiskey you could pay I'm sure you could pay to get a a girl in your room if you could work out what a room was that a whole section full of ladyboys there and got a building full of them they used to open it up on Saturdays so um you could pay for anything but not to leave they couldn't cover that and they couldn't trust each other you would need 25 30 different guards paid off and and the gods of visitors I mean too many guides no that wouldn't work and they looked at it as a kind of betrayal only if I saw two escapes attempts there one group of uh straight kids and a Singaporean got out of their cell incredibly turned themselves into the sleeping God when they'd all lied to each other about what they didn't have you know the ropes and ways out because they're it was so outraged that they'd spoiled the guys jobs they beat them to death slowly tortured them over three months to death having put them in little code lockers the soy they call them drag them out in elephant chains every day and batter them senseless uh internal bleeding usually did it um look I've got a bowl of rice and a painting to poo in that was it um even the water was it was just too horrible so if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off even my Swedish friends Sten the Viking he backed out at the last minute I couldn't get people to go with me all the other plants had fallen to bits because they depended on other people I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars and I needed equipment for that and here's a really important point I guess as bad as this world is you've got to try to find good people if you ask somebody if you asked your friend yeah and and you're finished you'll manage to get a phone call and say friend it's been here um I need you to get um I don't know four hacksaw blades and cut them into the dowel rods of a of a poster and then paint it all up and send it in a huge package with this that cable ties gaffer tape but disguise all that how many people are going to do it turn around wouldn't believe it Ben called me what his neck yeah he's screwed but anyway he wouldn't believe but he wants me to do this that now people don't do it but Michael on the other hand our business partner wouldn't even let me explain he hadn't heard from me in 18 months he said David don't explain I'm sure we could get cut off tell me the important part now where do I have to be and what do I have to bring no that's a friend um and so I've always tried to do the same for the others that I've known like that um but um I did get the equipment together that I needed and everything um about escapes from a big prison is not like your hope it's going to be you know I turned it out walked around the streets and it had streets inside it um and timed it with my trusty Casio and it was so I knew roughly how long it would take to get me but the night's a different world I'm a prisoner I'm only used to noise during the day even the fan chopping around in the Cell at night it's so quiet everything I did squeaked and rattled and twisted I came across a panel that had to be a nail had to come out and that and they'll protest it and scream their wrench out of the way it took um uh seven or eight worlds uh sorry seven or eight walls to cross over I say worlds because they really were every building was a different thing and I got lost and I went past the terminal AIDS Ward that building hundreds of guys all die and I could smell it before I got there because this necrotic Rotting Flesh and I couldn't resist looking in I'm carrying this huge long ladder made out of bamboo poles and fake picture frames gaffer taped along the center [Music] um and I looked up and I saw all these little faces in the Moonlight wrapped in so much pain and despair they didn't have the energy to cry out to the guards if they'd been in any other prisoners they would have the trustees there were absolute scum of the earth had whistled little uniforms sell the drugs one day and the rest of the guys for it the next all of that um and it was only by um well I only got to the outer wall by Dawn and if somebody had been with me I wouldn't have made it either you wouldn't have no imagine I've taken all night to get there and at each point where this something was unexpected I've had to dream up something and I get a little basic toolkit and I sometimes I'd have to sacrifice part of my ladder to make a hook to pull down barbed wire and the technique for using the thing was awkward you had to prop it walk up drop down the other side so you're twisting over the walls like that manual is entirely barbed wire so I had to go underneath it covered in mud the the last one was really too high and there was a Mars bar Creek the the moat that ran around I did you know if I was with somebody else we'd be arguing wouldn't we oh Spa Creek oh it was full of turds bombing around it was caught out of the sewer yeah you did ask um illustrative okay we're just gonna take a quick break from the show to talk about a sponsor of this episode better help better help is an online Counseling Service which connects people to therapists and counselors I'm joined by one of our producers bryony is counseling something you've had experience with do you know what it's interesting because when I was growing up the same kind of challenges in life would happen but people wouldn't necessarily go to therapy or talk about therapy and I feel like since uh maybe my late teens early 20s people are starting to go to therapy and talking about it and I have definitely used it in my life and it's been massively beneficial same and do you because I think one of the things that people often mistake they think it's just for big things yeah but what's the other experience of that thing I think life always throws you know small challenges and large challenges and sometimes the big things need talking about but actually you know starting a new school or starting a new job can rile up that same level of anxiety and it's just really helpful to be able to talk to someone about it who is completely impartial not involved in your life and just kind of a safe space I guess to just say whatever you want to say you completely agree as the world's largest therapy service better help as much 3 million people with professionally licensed and vetted therapists available 100 online plus it's affordable just fill out a brief questionnaire to match with a therapist if things aren't clicking you can easily switch to a new therapist anytime it couldn't be simpler no waiting rooms no traffic no endless searching for the right therapist learn more and save 10 of your first month at betterhelp.com minutes with that's betterhelp help help.com minutes with um now there was one way of oh Beyond marsburg create this a foot and a half of land before this huge huge wall you've got to get a ladder that's too heavy to carry too imbalanced to do anything with but you've got a bit of rope how do you get it to the other side of Mars bar which has all got tangled barb wire in that so it'll catch get it in place and up against the wall when you've got no ground to to walk on now there is a way and uh I guess people have to listen to me describe it either to you or in my book okay fine but too long to tell here sure but um I could see the glow of dawn as I got to the top which had electricity running through it too just to make it the top of the wall dead yeah yeah wow but um my friend who um was in there a bit of a technician is to belong to the anarchist Society in in Britain how would you belong to a society that has rules when you anyway putting that aside he did tell me that it would only be 240 volts but to be careful um and just managed to get over that and because the original plan was to um oh there was an outer moat beyond that of 20 meters I had my clothes ready to go into a plastic bag swim the moat but just as well I didn't um because all it turned out all the guards houses were over the other side of that moat this would not be a place to go but I cleaned myself up threw some clothes on and I one of the jobs that I didn't do but I was supposed to be doing was working in the Umbrella Factory so I paid a local boy to do it um I've got a pop-up umbrella from there I thought you know you really get a perspective about I want to just simple discrimination but being an outsider a foreigner the way sometimes people feel picked upon you know we were called the white trash and we were in in Chains and everything so I knew I had to cover my face in the popular did it and I managed to get to a place where a passport was hidden and to the airport and still had a working ATM card to get me out of the country into Singapore so did you end up with the umbrella did you walk out the front gate yeah I did I had some long trousers on now in their prisoners are not allowed to wear them so I had some khaki pants I thought they might as I walked around the the narrow path to the front gate it's still mote but a little Bridge I thought another figure it's a guard arriving late and sneaking in and I did I felt like Ripley an alien uh looking at thinking lucky lucky this is where it all ends doesn't it and I'm thinking that every moment and looking up and there was just enough light rain to justify the umbrella yeah I would learn later that was actually the not a rain from the gods but the spittle of their laughter because they had worse things in mind for me later on I mean it's so it's you know how many people are you aware how many people had escaped from that prison up to that point was it some every year or was it very infrequent none um the ties sometimes ran away when they were doing the gardens in Chains outside but Escape From Within um I'd known of in 20 years people could recall two attempts no foreigners um and they didn't trust the foreigners that's why they put you on the third floor right quite rightly yes and and how long had it taken you from like the beginning of the uh I started cutting at um 11 45 I paid a lot to get a light switch in there normally the lights are on all the time um okay and I said to my favorite guard oh yeah Ponting or whatever his name was I can't sleep with that thing I'll put a light switch in um um now they didn't say it as corruption or bribe taking they thought I'm doing this nice guy a favor and I'll be lucky because of it that's a very big thing over there you know if I get caught I'm unlucky then so they can batter me to death I mean sure it's kind of self-justifies any action that a human being might take so he started cutting around eight for 11 45 11 45 okay it's quite close through one bar by two in the morning oh God stencia listen we'll go on the next note I looked around and Kevin the American from Hawaii I didn't even know this was happening uh Mirage the Indian I know he's going to talk the next morning he was kakaria LA pantaloni right in the cell never mind holding out and not saying anything he would have it would have been finished I never would have made it and I guess I could have seen the missing bars potentially but I learned later on I actually caught up with somebody who was in there Scottish guy um he was there for selling ecstasy to the Two well-off Sons and Daughters of wealthy policemen anyway um he remembers they the guards couldn't figure that I'd left oh um he said David they ran around the the prison calling out your name it was Daniel Westlake while I was there Daniel Daniel they okay that somebody drew their attention to the cut bar in there yeah my Scottish friend said they the gods wanted they thought that okay he's got out he's angry about something uh Daniel but he's not actually he'll never get out he couldn't get it they never found the the ladder down the front wall until much much later so for um uh uh only one of them said oh we better check the airport they sent a couple of guys down there um just a little bit late and you were gone by then only just and remember man you've got a passport from a Chinese connection that you barely know but kind of like the cut of his jib but are you gonna put your life on the line on that and at every moment you're handing it over you know like the look of it yeah they don't like the look of it they're typing it up and you're thinking they got onto the computer have they done that bit uh have they entered my arrival was this I knew it was freshly stolen or sold off was only a few weeks old uh I mean not new was had only gone missing a few weeks earlier so it was still good but very nerve-wracking and I didn't have a photo I had to use my old um uh radio operators license that had a photograph in it to get reproduced into this thing so it was a bit grainy um and even on the plane it was delay and takeoff oh God and a mumbling Captain oh sorry um we we have a thing with one passenger I just asked what thing exactly soon enough thwomp doors to manual oh but I've got an hour you know looking at this passport I don't like it get to Singapore but I make it through so you got to Singapore yeah but you did end up going back to prison not a Thai prison but a different prison he's suggesting uh I did something wrong well I'm hoping you're going to tell me um no well okay uh I didn't stay in Singapore long because um I sat there in the hotel room unable to digest food not prepared by my own cook sure I in the hotel room in Singapore I realized you could work out who had left that day if they'd flown my air by simply going to the airport and children you work it out yourselves at home you check everybody who's left separate the foreigners hmm go a step further let's keep the Canadian and American the British the Australian New Zealand all the English-speaking passport Society um just to you know reduce the numbers take those names check with the embassies any of these names belong to lost or stolen passports that have been reported yeah five of them because that's Bangkok you know not the only Mischief maker there but nonetheless um they probably knew I could be who was I Charles McClintock hmm sorry Charles I had to borrow your passport but it was an essential cause but you're not wanted anymore of course are you no but I did get an unwelcome knock at the door some years ago uh by the police who um would it be to go excuse me Westminster Court known for the terrorist cases extradition or parking fights wow I'd lift the car anywhere lately so it was going to be one of the other two and it was extradition to Thailand I fought that case for two years and um it was difficult um but managed to effectively win in the end so the ties have dropped that one and I can't be taken back there I'm not wanted anywhere um I can nobody can do what they want but um I I'm not I haven't got anything pending I'm not in business I'm a bit cautious I even got sent something in the the mail a few years ago and I thought it was some gift from some halfway ambitious wombat in in Pakistan sending me a bit of dope thinking oh yeah there's a gift you might like that connection made no I mean people had my address all around the world ever since Danny Dyer um it turned out to be more complicated than that but um very dangerous for me to walk into a courtroom so I don't even imagine you're me and knock at the door oh here's something for you Ben you don't like the look of it you refuse it you're in court no matter why did you refuse that was it your name no you was up The Jig was up proof ladies and gentlemen oh you accept it ah you accepted it proof ladies and gentlemen wife saying to me Jeanette and whom I met in Pakistan years ago and she was there to fish out her husband on a two-ton hash deal he didn't make it anyway um she said throw the thing away I'm thinking in court again ladies and gentlemen he threw the stuff away I can't win so very cautious about all that kind of stuff um fair enough but I take it you won't be going for a holiday to Thailand anytime soon I didn't think so okay so how many do you know off the top of your head of your life how many years of your life have you spent in prison ultimately I did add it up once I'm 66 now and I suppose I've spent um but 22 years the thing that occurs to me and I met you before and I thought the same thing is like you obviously extremely intelligent extremely resourceful it can't be well but well anyway but do you regret the choices you made in terms of do you see those 22 years in prison as something you had no control over it's just the way the dice rolled or do you see them as a mistake on your part um worse than a mistake mistake suggest you didn't know uh where you were going wrong I was taking those steps into uh of a precipice that I'd defied there is no gravity I said I said I will work out something before I hit the ground um when I was It was kind of in stages when I was young it was just arrogance and and showing off and later on when everything was destroyed it was kind of I'd scraped away all of my life and would just go on um then in the third stage it was escaping away from places rebuilding up and being weakened every time it was taken away again um and do I regret it yeah I'm sure I um no you know some people say oh yeah but David just smuggled everything on Earth you scumbag you you know um think of the lives you've destroyed and the people you've heard ah and I go to start to explain that it's not quite black and white uh I mean I've had drug habits myself that I've carelessly allowed um but I thought what's the point anything I say we just sound like self-justification so well don't listen to me then you know but things that have happened that have taught me a lot it's interesting you say that because one of a lot of the comments on our well on the first video we did a lot of the comments where people saying someone needs to make a movie about this guy but a lot of the other comments were people saying he's so charismatic and likable but he must be a really dangerous person to have been involved with all these worlds for so long and um we've interviewed a couple of drug smugglers and I would say they're the ones that I've met have been the ones that probably are more someone you'd see is traditionally quite an obviously dangerous person you come across as very Charming charismatic roguish where do you see yourself on that scale do you see yourself as someone who was dangerous or do you see yourself as someone who's just moved from area to area as it occurred um kind of like this a dangerous I suppose what most people see that and you know if somebody was a problem for me would I find the best option to have them killed or not but really there always was a kind of Vestige of that's a failure if you can't think of anything better than to have them killed then then then what are you doing there's a million clever ways of solving your problems and that besides which there's always going to be people you can't kill everybody um not only that who killed the killers that you've got to do the killing you know you know they always say that about the quiet ones and all of that but it was the people who bothered to put up a smoke screen um they're establishing a um later Alibi a courtroom personality but I met him he didn't seem bothered by all of that why would he have him killed and those are the ones that um seem to be more dangerous and if I was such a dangerous person like that I certainly been absolute fool to break from that mold and say otherwise wouldn't it very true David it's great to see you again thank you so much for coming in always a pleasure yeah and I've Got a Feeling we'll be seeing you again at some point as well it's possible it does may cross thank you I'll be like oh my God they're in my head they they know they know that was a song and so they put that song on the radio and it's all everything revolves around me or you know and this happened well sometimes happens today you know I'm I'm thinking of someone in my head someone under there like on the street	I left at that time on purpose so that they maybe I thought maybe it's their weak point that they want to have families in their life just at Christmas I've parked my mum's car and and left the keys somewhere for her nobody knew were you not meant to leave the country no no no licenses oh I see we're just going to take a minute here to talk about a sponsor of this show which is manscaped we were sent a package to try out by manscaped but Conor one of our producers is already a fan of the brand I believe yeah absolutely I've been using manscape for a little while now and Ben as you know it's that time of year people start asking you what you want for Christmas and I would say that a great gift for a man especially one that might have everything is the manscape performance package 4.0 so what's in that so you get the lawnmower 4.0 electric trimmer you get some anti-chafe boxer shorts which I can vouch for as well as a couple of other grooming products that smell great fantastic well it sounds like a five-star review from uconnor absolutely so Connor you were talking about the performance package there's loads of other great gift ideas such as the hygiene bundle all available at manscape.com com and all gifts that men will genuinely love to receive this Christmas if you are a listener of this podcast you	6	2	4	I left at that time on purpose so that they maybe I thought maybe it's their weak point that they want to have families in their life just at Christmas I've parked my mum's car and and left the keys somewhere for her nobody knew were you not meant to leave the country no no no licenses	yeah absolutely I've been using manscape for a little while now and Ben as you know it's that time of year people start asking you what you want for Christmas and I would say that a great gift for a man especially one that might have everything is the manscape performance package 4.0 so what's in that so you get the lawnmower 4.0 electric trimmer you get some anti-chafe boxer shorts which I can vouch for as well as a couple of other grooming products that smell great fantastic	2,-5,3	8,4,6	2	-5	3	8	4	6
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyZyHHexx7s	4,101	oyZyHHexx7s	2022-12-07 00:00:00	even though I was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off I couldn't get people to go with me I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars [Music] it's great to have you back David obviously we've met before but for anyone who doesn't know who you are for new listeners or new viewers could you give us a brief introduction to what you are famous for well I suppose uh most well known for uh having escaped to prison in Thailand in Bangkok uh the biggest one they have there clong Prim it uh wasn't something I did frivolously I was going to be executed within a couple of weeks so it seemed like a good time to leave okay now um we're going to get into that in a bit more detail but one thing that I remember about you from last time is you're the most incredible talker and we took away the inter the initial interview we've done with you and ended up having to make it into two long episodes because you have a lot of different very colorful uh experiences so do forgive me if I Jimmy us through oh no I can understand that I mean the only place I never talk is in the police station I always like some of my uh work colleagues took um what was it one slap to get them talking but five to shut them up oh okay so let's go right back to the beginning um you were born in the UK and then I believe you emigrated to Australia well um it was all a family thing yes I was born in basewater in London I spent the first few years of my life then uh there but my parents broke up divorced and I went with my mother to Australia with my older sister so I don't have any really very early memories of London apart from some old eight millimeter movie footage of me learning to walk in Hyde Park my dad was waving a five pound note in front of my face and I was making every effort to grab it I continued that behavior for many many years afterwards returned to Australia um finished some schooling um got really contrasting jobs I worked in an adult Agency for a while um but also before that I was got a job in a cinema now it was the and under literally an underground place but it was there that I got introduced to a bunch of crooks um some of the girls there had boyfriends that I used to run down with um strange boxes or bits of money or fur coats and then wink at me bolt out the back door pursued by often policemen undercover ones of course whom we'd misdirect somewhere but that Circle they were um safe crackers and they really didn't trust Outsiders and didn't much like the sound of me but because of I demonstrated a couple of things by being look everybody was really very anti-authority then I I don't mean hostile but for people now they they wouldn't have experienced that in the uh late 60s 70s we were so snotty and arrogant we really thought we were going to change the world and that um the laws were all nothing and the way to change them was to break them well that was the kind of vanity we had so um when I got to know the safe crackers uh better there was something really interesting I mean I didn't like the idea you know stealing things seemed a bit tacky but on the other hand they kind of all needed the money from the from their backgrounds and everything but that wasn't so much the the interest it was the technicalities of getting into these things okay um they used to drill through the top um having anchored it with the drill with clamps and and put a kind of little lens inside a cystoscope used in medicine and watch the the wheels turning around this is the old kind of old-fashioned Hollywood style it was yeah and um behind the safe were three discs and you had to line them up and they'd once they got in they'd take the door with them so that the opposition the safe makers wouldn't know how they'd got in and it was a a constant battle between the manufacturers and them because they've come across new safes which had Special Metals in it that was mixed like a a crunchy nut bar very hard metals very soft ones so the drill bit would slip on them snap and you got a sense that this was almost like a game where um they would try something then try to beat them and they were very loyal to each other um they they never spoke out of school as it were um when I got involved with them I'd only have to if I had trouble I don't have to make one phone call and people would appear out of nowhere and I thought yeah this this is kind of better than the treacherous boys school that I I grew up in and how old were you at this point um 19 years old 19. so were you thinking you were making a conscious decision to move into illegal activities or at that point in time and at that point in the world did it feel like more of a kind of a bit of roguish fun would you say I was drawn to it anyway because it was interesting and um I didn't really have a lot of fear I think sometimes what we do or don't do is depending on how scary it seems yeah agreed um I was born with a low resting heart rate as they say you know if it's below 70 you're a risk taker I don't know why that is when the safe crackers retired they put some of their money into growing little crops of weed and so on but profit margin is is only through importing because like the price difference is cheap in the source countries expensive where it sells so because they couldn't do it they were almost throwing it down like a challenge like we don't know anybody who can do this and I thought well I traveled a lot um I didn't think it was going to be impossible um I thought the odds were in my phone and I looked it up I went to the library and sort of researched it a bit and where were you thinking which country Well they um they were very keen to get some um hashish from India or Nepal or somewhere okay I could see um it's bulky and there's packing problems so um they funded me and off I sailed now the operation my first operation was so deplorably bad I'm barely 20 years old I my cunning plan which involved a big piece of exported Machinery which had weights in it so the weights would come out the cash would go in it would weigh the same being returned and it was a piece of Television equipment or something that went South immediately when I didn't realize that I would have to pay a huge deposit in duty to even bring it in as a demo machine so forget that I ended up in short meeting a guy in a money exchange section of a bank I was there because I ran out and I had to send asking for more from the boys and I met him and he wasn't involved in any of this but he soon became that just he managed to get me six kilos of hash I took the 1952 ancient Grundig radio from his parents house the Shelf there guttered the thing like a fish wrapped it up and he had to get cling film in those days think of this before you travel arriving with a suitcase full of cling film doesn't look good I suppose but uh wedged it in there and then just flew back to Sydney now you can imagine what happened well just before we get on to what happened you know one thing that strikes me is what year was would this have been this was uh 77 77 so it's amazing think that back then if someone was going to India for the first time now they could go on Google Maps they could research it or they could find out who they could find phone numbers contacts they could be put in contact with people before they've even set off whereas you must have at that age at that time been going in slightly blind you know touching down in a foreign country that you didn't know well no contacts was that not quite daunting well what was more um troubling with um how everything would fail and then I'd have to um you know come up with another plan what context somebody I knew um um there were no bank robber who joined the hare krishnas and fled to India right and I had his name and and the ashram in Delhi where where he was was supposed to have been uh I didn't really catch up with him on that trip but okay sure so so then you get back to Australia with your radio that is now full to the brim with and I get stopped you you did get stopped okay I could stop because uh I'm I'm on a British passport um and it's the only trip I've ever done and I'm that age I'd stop me oh fatherly type was at the Customs desk now the the systems were different in those days um it was Sydney too which is very and certainly was very relaxed back then right he opened the suitcase uh there was nothing in there except a pair of socks there's a towel wrapping up this massive radio which he lifted up so it was buckled at the sides little red packets poking out oh it smelled like a hedgehog for a patchouliers okay not much of a disguise um he let me go he uh put it back looked around to make sure that none of his workmates were watching him being so soft um and then turned to me and said you're going back there you're going to do this again [Music] all right you can take your we'll call it a radio shall we get out of here what he thought I realized later was that he didn't want the whole grammar of the day arresting me filling out papers and it would have been a a long time plus I guess being a dad he thought if I he's obviously an idiot you're right if I send him into Gladiator Academy or it wasn't really like that in those days but certainly contact center um the prison what am I doing um well I guess uh he was hopeful you know I whilst out of there must have smuggling me but I experienced then what um I got years later which was kind of a real Downer after you know having got nowhere with The Hare krishnas and and cultivated the shoeshine boys and had my money stolen at Amex uh by some Scallywags in Delhi all sorts of Little Adventures over there in India and nonetheless made it it's kind of like that's all there is to it I I didn't really want to give it to anyone um sort of felt like you didn't have a big moment of no a bit of money that came earlier that's handy right uh I paid back what I owed and settled up for for the next thing so but once that was started when you sorry I interrupted you go oh I was just going to say it to finish it even though they'd funded me the guys were very surprised to see me back but at all at all oh you made it oh because some of them say oh you'll just run away with it uh even if that's what he's doing who knows what he's doing you know and then I could see sitting around you can imagine there's like a table full of well like three guys and then a kind of Darkness shrouded over that room I thought uh it's not valuable enough to kill me you know what what is this mood why did you bring that well that's what you've been talking about yeah you could have loaded that with cane or smack or something you guys we say nothing but terrible things about a class or heavy drugs that don't want to know about it right and I could read then that wait a minute there we're all might be guys together and having fun getting into the safe and whatnot but there was a kind of different it was something a very strong lesson I'd have to be thoughtful about that um there could be times where things didn't work out not necessarily that my safety was at risk I didn't see it that way but I knew that there were Ruthless People right okay yeah so you got an insight into a mindset that had been a bit below the surface it was there I just chose not to see it but um I then went on to you know refine everything and Vary everything and then did you after that first time did you were you still working sort of for them or did you immediately well when you wake up on your own when things um I picked up and there was enough money around out of uh out of strategy rather than just being a nice guy I gave my partners a kind of thank you bonus from the next thing that I did but I did that all myself right so it was almost like a yeah separation and I wanted to go back to the my hippie friends anyway they were a little less it wasn't that they were scary but but that didn't last because they were maybe friends might be all right but they will certainly careless and stupid but from from that point onwards after that initial Journey was that you then into the world of smuggling I thought this won't last forever you only need one setback and that changes it I probably made quite a lot of money and I could have got out but and I should have gotta you know I have couriers a leak from one of the the couriers brought the police to me and here was the problem with it it was at first I scattered now I was married to my first wife then clearly Italian girl her dad had restaurants I grabbed her I had a secret drawer with extra passports in it some money ended up four plane Journeys later in um off the Bahamas had the skipper of a day rent yacht and take me out to an island and nobody had ever been on before it was empty sat there on a towel I thought hmm the level of surveillance I had means it's quite a big operation they're funded and I checked with a lawyer before the bigger the money they spent the more determined they'll be stay away or go back I mean I don't know why would anybody do this uh well I wasn't broke um I didn't have to there was no pressure on me the more I went through the problems the more attractive the whole thing is uh she didn't like it much well again do you think because it was a puzzle to be solved because um arrogance really we've gone from basically someone who was kind of mildly interested in making a group of people meeting a group of um safe hackers to someone who pulled off their first thing and then we've jumped to someone who has people working for them and and now is no longer taking the risk themselves now the police are on to you and you're on this desert island well small island and you're thinking about going back into it was this like a turning point in your life in terms of going you know because the other option I suppose was to go straight but were you just more it was that just not an option for you I'd gone to my lawyer Ralph he said look this is what I picked up because I my travel agent had tipped me to a couple of detectives that come in he traveled again while I was in on the phone okay uh actually they're all innocent really yeah you know and and gave him a long list of names um they wanted travel details for and a telephone number which I traced uh to um a private office building which had been rented by state and federal police they were so distrusting of their own they didn't want to even run this thing from um regular police headquarters my lawyer said well what you sure it's you said Ralph look at the list of names there's 30 there I'm 26 of them passports are a lot easier to get back then than there now so you had 26 aliases that you were traveling on yeah right okay um and I described where they were he said David they are funded well they're not bear this in mind but although I what they won't get me with anything they're funded you think they're going to walk away after a year and say oh sorry boss you spend a million dollars and uh nothing doing they don't work like that but this is how stubborn I was I thought because he said the only thing you can do is disappear for at least a couple of years and then you can come back if that's what you want and of course I had justifications for it I thought okay I'll I'll build up a bit more money and then I'll disappear but um it was only after things went terribly badly that I realized I shouldn't play like this anymore what it was they um because the challenge just kept coming so now so did you go back to Australia I went back to Australia and and when I retired within three months right but they weren't waiting for you to arrest you or no no they wanted they wanted something solid okay [Music] um I won't go into the long machinations of it all but um somebody we knew uh was getting things from a Thai Courier and he got arrested he sold us out to the police so that that The Courier would now come to us and I always have some solid evidence right he would bring things but we got away with that because that was another challenge but the police got tired of all this arrested me no drugs of course so it was a difficult case the worst kind of case is that where there's no solid evidence and in a way it's better to go to court where you've got a Smoking Gun and a dead body on the ground because at least you know where you are but where there's nothing tangible and it's conspiracies and this was a huge trial six months long what is that 119 Witnesses 6 000 pages of uh telephone intercept massive thing won't made it worse too and I think this was um would change things for me um the pressure was put on for confessions but it'd be silly to confess and you can't confess on somebody else's behalf can you that's not nice um lots of the family were arrested even my mother was taken and it went oh wow just to put pressure on uh did she know what you did oh she had an idea right okay I mean I used to have bin liners full of money I'd leave behind the fridge yeah you don't get that in the cinema do you not done not a very good day you know uh because they arrested so many people now when they arrested our wives and my business partner Michael his wife just had a baby it was we had to do a deal here I didn't want to but I was going to say I said to Michael look I know you don't like it but we'll play to it get the girls out of trouble we'll Escape that's a good challenge that way [Music] um but unfortunately um the intelligence section put an arsonist Informer in with the girls to get some information her fire was lit uh burnt down the women's prison and my wife and my business partner's wife was were killed uh that's awful and so the Informer that they put in there yeah why did they pick an arsonist for Daniel writer name was I don't know why I remember that after 40 years God so that's quite a big that was oh and and just uh to make things worse the story put about town to scare the careers into talking because they wouldn't speak was that we'd we were killing off all the witnesses and starting with our own family where does that come from um we ended up in a super max prison nightmarish electronic zoo with two inch glass and electronic doors and insane inmates held 48 death rate 27 people a year died in that little supermax going to court in Chains with a SWAT team taking it it was so so much Michael fell to pieces he was just a wreck he didn't make it uh he survived the jail but died when he got out the only way I could survive all of that was to strip away everything I you know I found myself in the supermax concrete everything's concrete the bed everything there's no everything's still just with the tape player from my lure listening to the the tapes the bug tapes the microphones in my house I could play back my life for the last six months clearly you're moving from room to room taking telephone calls she was crying about something I didn't know what I never know and David that's gone immerse yourself in the worst that they have you will not survive this otherwise trial sort of went not so good acquitted of most things but convicted enough 10 years difficult imprisonment but I the only way I could deal with it was to say did I want revenge that was more my fault I brought this about I got her in there I mean a family of a very kind to me about it considering I wouldn't be but it doesn't matter in Chains and super Mech strip it all away it is nothing everyone is a potential enemy everything it just nothing mattered win the day win the night I mean this is a place we had to fill in a book to get some toilet paper the showers were in front of them in a glass box um if you went on a visit they'd zip you up and lock you in a suit so you had no pockets there was after that and her death I felt like there was nothing that could affect me you're wrong about these things you know we're human but I got out and they were there they even visited me to say we'll be on you when you get out the police yeah we enjoyed the old days didn't you yeah I said pretending you know and just to make the point that they were there when I got out um I I'd done a whole lot of Woodwork in the prison in the last place I was at carving intricate things making these really great trick Chinese boxes with beeswax they intercepted the van that was taking it from the prison back to my house and smashed it all to pieces I put it in a box just to say don't think that we will never be here we can do what we want so I decided to leave the country I was um how old am I by then let's work it out yeah uh I started all this Mischief when I was about 18 got arrested at 22. 23 uh um 16 years 17 years either under surveillance or in bad prisons got out and I'm under surveillance again um so how old so you're number 37 about 37. so that's already you know that's a big chunk of Life there but you've lost quite a lot of it to prison or surveillance well at no point now were you like okay and I wasn't a normal person uh really when I got out because of the experience of prison I'd already stripped most of Myself Away to deal with the death of the Superman yeah and and watching people be burnt to death in the place which was frequent somebody had contact glue pulled all over him and then satellite oh God Gods came in and the other one's standing there with a Tire swinging it around to make sure to let him burn let him burn Jesus Barry's name was testicles swollen like apples but black okay he died two hours later in hospital anyway um that was regular account to deal with that I'd already strip things away so when I got a little apartment when I got out and my mother had arranged things for me when they were there when they'd leave rude messages on my answer machine when they'd be behind me everywhere I thought all right I remember this David it never ends if you want to survive go back to the way you were you know in in the super max Anything Can Happen anytime but I didn't want to live like that um I got a fresh passport and most elaborate means um I could spend a week explaining how that came into existence but I went to Thailand to pick up some money I had three days there it was just before Christmas I left at that time on purpose so that they maybe I thought maybe it's their weak point that they want to have families in their life just at Christmas I've parked my mum's car and and left the keys somewhere for her nobody knew were you not meant to leave the country no no no licenses oh I see we're just going to take a minute here to talk about a sponsor of this show which is manscaped we were sent a package to try out by manscaped but Conor one of our producers is already a fan of the brand I believe yeah absolutely I've been using manscape for a little while now and Ben as you know it's that time of year people start asking you what you want for Christmas and I would say that a great gift for a man especially one that might have everything is the manscape performance package 4.0 so what's in that so you get the lawnmower 4.0 electric trimmer you get some anti-chafe boxer shorts which I can vouch for as well as a couple of other grooming products that smell great fantastic well it sounds like a five-star review from uconnor absolutely so Connor you were talking about the performance package there's loads of other great gift ideas such as the hygiene bundle all available at manscape.com com and all gifts that men will genuinely love to receive this Christmas if you are a listener of this podcast you get 20 off and free shipping all you have to do is go to manscape.com and use the code minutes that's manscape.com m-i-n-u-t-e-s minutes um so why are we doing that the risk is it worth it I didn't want to play anymore right I wanted to uh see if I could have a something resembling like a a real life just to find some corner of the world plan was to to return to London and oh so you were leaving forever I'm leaving forever okay I see nobody knew it um I had a couple of hundred thousand in Thailand I thought um which I returned to pick up um now I suppose people say this Crooks always say this most unusual circumstances led to my arrest well they were but then again they always are aren't they or you wouldn't be telling the story or you wouldn't have been arrested but um the USDA was involved lots of people lots of players uh no real drugs are found uh they did an airport sweep and listed me up for like an ounce of something and a false passport or two the money I had just disappeared into pockets but those when I arrived there I felt so free I knew this identity was good I just like floating on air really I slipped out of my protective mode you know that when we stick to the plan and all right you don't want to leave I should have even stayed there for six months just get some sensible view of the world but I I didn't uh and as I went to the airport I could see they were all around me and I melted back into the crowd and disappeared again I thought well that serves me right for changing that attitude I'd had from back in super max and I just glaze over concentrate on the details which I needed to do because when I went to make a phone call later at the travel agency uh waiting it was so depressing being thrown into the Thai prison and I had some idea what they'd be like um people I'd known had been arrested there I knew this much it never won a case you never get out well you get out and what were they arresting you for was it the the uh the passport um what did the the the money wasn't I mean what did they leave 4 000 or something like that right and there are airports we put um I saw the guy walking in with it in a plastic bag you know whatever people throw on the floor before they go through security there was a bit of hash this usual bits of weed but what they really wanted was um this 25 grams of heroin because that would finish me off a policeman um Australian one said was that yours yeah yeah sure it was he said I didn't think so what would you be carrying around that for I mean if it was 10 kilos I might understand but but that was enough the death penalty and was it yours no no no so where where would that come from if you do they do a sweep every afternoon at five o'clock they get tons of it right I get you know nervous passengers go up and then they change their minds and they throw it in the toilet too and were they just did do you think they believed it was yours or do you think they were just going this is we need to give him this bit no no I think they were using it hoping to that would be good to hold and maybe they could get something else find out what I was up to who I was seeing because I had met um somebody who's whose uncle was a big player right so there was there was I think they were optimistic there might be more Camp come out of it but but there wasn't but what difference did it make and I wasn't really worried about um those drugs or the death penalty I wanted to die anyway frankly my first escape plans from there had this I imagine getting out to find the Privacy to kill myself right I wanted to go to the dusa Tony Hotel I knew Which floor and where to get onto the roof I'd taken photographs from there many years before um they were you simply couldn't get a moment's piece dormitories with 150 guys in them screaming all night um we can't even take a crap in peace in the Thai prison We're Not Afraid though of what killing myself well no I mean I don't know being brutalized by the guards or the inmates so well I knew enough about Thailand to to know that it was a little more comic than than bad there were very bad things happen they used to um they've beaten people a couple of people get beaten to death every day there but it's a very big prison we have to get that in proportion I only wish they wouldn't use the food trolley to take the dead bodies out because um you know they don't clean them up um and could you speak the language or were you quite it was a quite different communication uh not really uh and the few languages that uh pitch up in my travels I always found that even if you know them it's better to pretend you don't okay um because they'll talk about you behind your back you know certainly didn't live it on there was I I just couldn't see any point I'd gone to such elaborate precautions on this trip um it just shouldn't have happened and I even got away from the airport and still it happened oh all that confidence that I'll figure a way out I didn't care anymore I just had enough um and I remember seeing an old guy there if you had to go to court they put change on you and um you'd line up on the ground now this old guy I was looking at him because I don't know why a big soundtrack went past he had the presence of mind to push his head under that sand truck and oh it twisted it around popped like a watermelon being dropped on the ground oh my God guys very annoyed told the trustees to get that thing away out of sight was that nice thing called it I thought you Brave bastard you yeah you've got the guts to do that was it not quite a disturbing thing to witness no it was shocking because if you haven't seen it kind of thing up close and I happen to be looking um it was uh but that that's how I felt about it but I was saved In The End by a con man and people say a lot of bad things about economy they do yes they do and they uh you can't be trusted uh they are rottenness and they will cheat you just because they're the Scorpion that's in their nature uh but sometimes they're just what you need and this rather smooth um Bostonian American um who spoke Thai and really knew his way around and I you know I thought the somewhere in this huge prison there'd be an enclave of rich and corrupt foreigners with loads of money and there'd be luxuries it wasn't there was nobody of any importance in there you know a couple of big sacrifices had been made but um a couple of very rich policemen who were in the hospital in intensive care but other than that it was it was just um the people who reached the absolute bottom Drifters in Asia who did run after run and then got sacrificed to the machine they'd get about four jobs a big Syndicate there operating careers had run four times bang they'd shot them to the police they'd be gone oh God they will turn told the same story and it was Joe it was this guest house it was such and such identical and um and and at this point had you been sentenced to death had you received oh no no no I I was trying to avoid that yeah once I came to my senses because the the Boston con had so many wonderful schemes medical thing to get me bail and know some way of a escape with a go to court I get snatched from there I had villains come over and and scope out the court too because there was a way I thought of getting out of there from the lift that took you up to the the building uh snatched from the middle as you go down changed into a different set of clothes but they all got scared thing about um some of our most loved uh and fearless villains they're pretty good in the local manner but you throw them into a place like that where people carry machine guns and shoot at will just for the hell of it not so confident they like the upper edge of being snakes um so I couldn't convince anybody to really help and it was just as well um and two and a half years passed there in this prison it's a long time it was I sort of perked up a little bit pulled myself together started exercising um got a couple of ATM cards over hadn't my favorite god um he was in charge of the the building bought myself a room renovated um so you had you bought a room within the prison that was just for you rented that's rented right you know and is that an official thing that you're allowed to do right there are places in the world where it's official right but you had an influx of money that you could pay for special treats you could survive there on um less than 500 pounds a month and be king oh wow was this the 70s or the 80s now by the way we're into um 90 495 19 the 495 because what's reported about you is that during the 80s you were a multi-millionaire um is that accurate um now what do we call a multi-millionaires a young halfway with a million and a quarter on a glass coffee table and looks around the living room and thinks I've got to get a sofa one of these days um oh goes to the car auctions in the morning buys a big yank tank with a 427 Chevy engine in it um drives it around makes his own car parking spaces you know we're smashing the front in backing the other one pushing the other cars out of the way um oh stoned off my head most of the time uh if I wasn't stunned enough I'd take a few mandracks just to colludes icing on the cake um so I didn't take care of the money and the money didn't take care of me so I guess I'm like the reason I the reason I asked was because it must have been quite a stark change going from a very rich existence to basically somewhere where you basically couldn't pay for anything initially and it was a very poor existence but I guess from what you're saying there it's not like you felt like you were Rich at the time um I've made that contrast a few times when I had my first big arrest I couldn't as I was in a cold near lightless cell of blue stone and horse hair mattress about two inches thick and wrecking a piss I would think back to the night before when I had my important to tell in huge bed and Irish linen sheets and swimming pool out there and um and we had to kind of shake off the contrast but that rubber banding must must have been hard to take because it's you're going from basically the aspiration of almost everyone where you're talking about just buying cars outright and having a swimming pool to a piss stinking bed you know it must be it was you know it's odd thing about it was providing I could see a way out a work a way out I didn't so much mind oh okay um I really trained myself to expect my whatever world I built up and and this happened several times I've done it five times had a new identity New Life new surroundings even new people and dang they're gone and every time it got worse um and there was even Thailand was desperately important because even though it was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it um you know I was somebody that nobody minded killing um so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah there's nothing like the prospect of being executed by a machine gun which is the way they did it God is that what it would have been wow yeah you know oh they'd have three guards all with a bit of string on the trigger and they'd all pull it once so that none of them could be condemned in the Buddhist sense of sin oh they don't even actually right I see it caused the bullet that finished you off oh I see so you're in the Thai prison you've been sentenced to uh rather unpleasant death penalty um how did you start coming up with this famous plan for escaping um desperation it was the last plan that looked like it was going to work um there were probably about 20 plans considered um everything from being the prison held I've since found out it holds 22 000 people oh my God in 10 sub prisons uh there's a women's section there's a young offenders there's a special reminder a drug unit all of that um just a wild place it has everything it even had a prisoner-run shop where you could extract you could borrow money against your account and cash anyway um one of the plans involved being welded into a VW Combi van in the prisons Auto Workshop which would be picked up early Monday morning and I'd be driven out and that another one was um there were several courtroom ones and you couldn't just pay your way out no no it's just you could pay to have a mobile phone which in those days was a rare thing but they were around um you could pay for a bottle of clong uh whiskey you could pay I'm sure you could pay to get a a girl in your room if you could work out what a room was that a whole section full of ladyboys there and got a building full of them they used to open it up on Saturdays so um you could pay for anything but not to leave they couldn't cover that and they couldn't trust each other you would need 25 30 different guards paid off and and the gods of visitors I mean too many guides no that wouldn't work and they looked at it as a kind of betrayal only if I saw two escapes attempts there one group of uh straight kids and a Singaporean got out of their cell incredibly turned themselves into the sleeping God when they'd all lied to each other about what they didn't have you know the ropes and ways out because they're it was so outraged that they'd spoiled the guys jobs they beat them to death slowly tortured them over three months to death having put them in little code lockers the soy they call them drag them out in elephant chains every day and batter them senseless uh internal bleeding usually did it um look I've got a bowl of rice and a painting to poo in that was it um even the water was it was just too horrible so if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off even my Swedish friends Sten the Viking he backed out at the last minute I couldn't get people to go with me all the other plants had fallen to bits because they depended on other people I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars and I needed equipment for that and here's a really important point I guess as bad as this world is you've got to try to find good people if you ask somebody if you asked your friend yeah and and you're finished you'll manage to get a phone call and say friend it's been here um I need you to get um I don't know four hacksaw blades and cut them into the dowel rods of a of a poster and then paint it all up and send it in a huge package with this that cable ties gaffer tape but disguise all that how many people are going to do it turn around wouldn't believe it Ben called me what his neck yeah he's screwed but anyway he wouldn't believe but he wants me to do this that now people don't do it but Michael on the other hand our business partner wouldn't even let me explain he hadn't heard from me in 18 months he said David don't explain I'm sure we could get cut off tell me the important part now where do I have to be and what do I have to bring no that's a friend um and so I've always tried to do the same for the others that I've known like that um but um I did get the equipment together that I needed and everything um about escapes from a big prison is not like your hope it's going to be you know I turned it out walked around the streets and it had streets inside it um and timed it with my trusty Casio and it was so I knew roughly how long it would take to get me but the night's a different world I'm a prisoner I'm only used to noise during the day even the fan chopping around in the Cell at night it's so quiet everything I did squeaked and rattled and twisted I came across a panel that had to be a nail had to come out and that and they'll protest it and scream their wrench out of the way it took um uh seven or eight worlds uh sorry seven or eight walls to cross over I say worlds because they really were every building was a different thing and I got lost and I went past the terminal AIDS Ward that building hundreds of guys all die and I could smell it before I got there because this necrotic Rotting Flesh and I couldn't resist looking in I'm carrying this huge long ladder made out of bamboo poles and fake picture frames gaffer taped along the center [Music] um and I looked up and I saw all these little faces in the Moonlight wrapped in so much pain and despair they didn't have the energy to cry out to the guards if they'd been in any other prisoners they would have the trustees there were absolute scum of the earth had whistled little uniforms sell the drugs one day and the rest of the guys for it the next all of that um and it was only by um well I only got to the outer wall by Dawn and if somebody had been with me I wouldn't have made it either you wouldn't have no imagine I've taken all night to get there and at each point where this something was unexpected I've had to dream up something and I get a little basic toolkit and I sometimes I'd have to sacrifice part of my ladder to make a hook to pull down barbed wire and the technique for using the thing was awkward you had to prop it walk up drop down the other side so you're twisting over the walls like that manual is entirely barbed wire so I had to go underneath it covered in mud the the last one was really too high and there was a Mars bar Creek the the moat that ran around I did you know if I was with somebody else we'd be arguing wouldn't we oh Spa Creek oh it was full of turds bombing around it was caught out of the sewer yeah you did ask um illustrative okay we're just gonna take a quick break from the show to talk about a sponsor of this episode better help better help is an online Counseling Service which connects people to therapists and counselors I'm joined by one of our producers bryony is counseling something you've had experience with do you know what it's interesting because when I was growing up the same kind of challenges in life would happen but people wouldn't necessarily go to therapy or talk about therapy and I feel like since uh maybe my late teens early 20s people are starting to go to therapy and talking about it and I have definitely used it in my life and it's been massively beneficial same and do you because I think one of the things that people often mistake they think it's just for big things yeah but what's the other experience of that thing I think life always throws you know small challenges and large challenges and sometimes the big things need talking about but actually you know starting a new school or starting a new job can rile up that same level of anxiety and it's just really helpful to be able to talk to someone about it who is completely impartial not involved in your life and just kind of a safe space I guess to just say whatever you want to say you completely agree as the world's largest therapy service better help as much 3 million people with professionally licensed and vetted therapists available 100 online plus it's affordable just fill out a brief questionnaire to match with a therapist if things aren't clicking you can easily switch to a new therapist anytime it couldn't be simpler no waiting rooms no traffic no endless searching for the right therapist learn more and save 10 of your first month at betterhelp.com minutes with that's betterhelp help help.com minutes with um now there was one way of oh Beyond marsburg create this a foot and a half of land before this huge huge wall you've got to get a ladder that's too heavy to carry too imbalanced to do anything with but you've got a bit of rope how do you get it to the other side of Mars bar which has all got tangled barb wire in that so it'll catch get it in place and up against the wall when you've got no ground to to walk on now there is a way and uh I guess people have to listen to me describe it either to you or in my book okay fine but too long to tell here sure but um I could see the glow of dawn as I got to the top which had electricity running through it too just to make it the top of the wall dead yeah yeah wow but um my friend who um was in there a bit of a technician is to belong to the anarchist Society in in Britain how would you belong to a society that has rules when you anyway putting that aside he did tell me that it would only be 240 volts but to be careful um and just managed to get over that and because the original plan was to um oh there was an outer moat beyond that of 20 meters I had my clothes ready to go into a plastic bag swim the moat but just as well I didn't um because all it turned out all the guards houses were over the other side of that moat this would not be a place to go but I cleaned myself up threw some clothes on and I one of the jobs that I didn't do but I was supposed to be doing was working in the Umbrella Factory so I paid a local boy to do it um I've got a pop-up umbrella from there I thought you know you really get a perspective about I want to just simple discrimination but being an outsider a foreigner the way sometimes people feel picked upon you know we were called the white trash and we were in in Chains and everything so I knew I had to cover my face in the popular did it and I managed to get to a place where a passport was hidden and to the airport and still had a working ATM card to get me out of the country into Singapore so did you end up with the umbrella did you walk out the front gate yeah I did I had some long trousers on now in their prisoners are not allowed to wear them so I had some khaki pants I thought they might as I walked around the the narrow path to the front gate it's still mote but a little Bridge I thought another figure it's a guard arriving late and sneaking in and I did I felt like Ripley an alien uh looking at thinking lucky lucky this is where it all ends doesn't it and I'm thinking that every moment and looking up and there was just enough light rain to justify the umbrella yeah I would learn later that was actually the not a rain from the gods but the spittle of their laughter because they had worse things in mind for me later on I mean it's so it's you know how many people are you aware how many people had escaped from that prison up to that point was it some every year or was it very infrequent none um the ties sometimes ran away when they were doing the gardens in Chains outside but Escape From Within um I'd known of in 20 years people could recall two attempts no foreigners um and they didn't trust the foreigners that's why they put you on the third floor right quite rightly yes and and how long had it taken you from like the beginning of the uh I started cutting at um 11 45 I paid a lot to get a light switch in there normally the lights are on all the time um okay and I said to my favorite guard oh yeah Ponting or whatever his name was I can't sleep with that thing I'll put a light switch in um um now they didn't say it as corruption or bribe taking they thought I'm doing this nice guy a favor and I'll be lucky because of it that's a very big thing over there you know if I get caught I'm unlucky then so they can batter me to death I mean sure it's kind of self-justifies any action that a human being might take so he started cutting around eight for 11 45 11 45 okay it's quite close through one bar by two in the morning oh God stencia listen we'll go on the next note I looked around and Kevin the American from Hawaii I didn't even know this was happening uh Mirage the Indian I know he's going to talk the next morning he was kakaria LA pantaloni right in the cell never mind holding out and not saying anything he would have it would have been finished I never would have made it and I guess I could have seen the missing bars potentially but I learned later on I actually caught up with somebody who was in there Scottish guy um he was there for selling ecstasy to the Two well-off Sons and Daughters of wealthy policemen anyway um he remembers they the guards couldn't figure that I'd left oh um he said David they ran around the the prison calling out your name it was Daniel Westlake while I was there Daniel Daniel they okay that somebody drew their attention to the cut bar in there yeah my Scottish friend said they the gods wanted they thought that okay he's got out he's angry about something uh Daniel but he's not actually he'll never get out he couldn't get it they never found the the ladder down the front wall until much much later so for um uh uh only one of them said oh we better check the airport they sent a couple of guys down there um just a little bit late and you were gone by then only just and remember man you've got a passport from a Chinese connection that you barely know but kind of like the cut of his jib but are you gonna put your life on the line on that and at every moment you're handing it over you know like the look of it yeah they don't like the look of it they're typing it up and you're thinking they got onto the computer have they done that bit uh have they entered my arrival was this I knew it was freshly stolen or sold off was only a few weeks old uh I mean not new was had only gone missing a few weeks earlier so it was still good but very nerve-wracking and I didn't have a photo I had to use my old um uh radio operators license that had a photograph in it to get reproduced into this thing so it was a bit grainy um and even on the plane it was delay and takeoff oh God and a mumbling Captain oh sorry um we we have a thing with one passenger I just asked what thing exactly soon enough thwomp doors to manual oh but I've got an hour you know looking at this passport I don't like it get to Singapore but I make it through so you got to Singapore yeah but you did end up going back to prison not a Thai prison but a different prison he's suggesting uh I did something wrong well I'm hoping you're going to tell me um no well okay uh I didn't stay in Singapore long because um I sat there in the hotel room unable to digest food not prepared by my own cook sure I in the hotel room in Singapore I realized you could work out who had left that day if they'd flown my air by simply going to the airport and children you work it out yourselves at home you check everybody who's left separate the foreigners hmm go a step further let's keep the Canadian and American the British the Australian New Zealand all the English-speaking passport Society um just to you know reduce the numbers take those names check with the embassies any of these names belong to lost or stolen passports that have been reported yeah five of them because that's Bangkok you know not the only Mischief maker there but nonetheless um they probably knew I could be who was I Charles McClintock hmm sorry Charles I had to borrow your passport but it was an essential cause but you're not wanted anymore of course are you no but I did get an unwelcome knock at the door some years ago uh by the police who um would it be to go excuse me Westminster Court known for the terrorist cases extradition or parking fights wow I'd lift the car anywhere lately so it was going to be one of the other two and it was extradition to Thailand I fought that case for two years and um it was difficult um but managed to effectively win in the end so the ties have dropped that one and I can't be taken back there I'm not wanted anywhere um I can nobody can do what they want but um I I'm not I haven't got anything pending I'm not in business I'm a bit cautious I even got sent something in the the mail a few years ago and I thought it was some gift from some halfway ambitious wombat in in Pakistan sending me a bit of dope thinking oh yeah there's a gift you might like that connection made no I mean people had my address all around the world ever since Danny Dyer um it turned out to be more complicated than that but um very dangerous for me to walk into a courtroom so I don't even imagine you're me and knock at the door oh here's something for you Ben you don't like the look of it you refuse it you're in court no matter why did you refuse that was it your name no you was up The Jig was up proof ladies and gentlemen oh you accept it ah you accepted it proof ladies and gentlemen wife saying to me Jeanette and whom I met in Pakistan years ago and she was there to fish out her husband on a two-ton hash deal he didn't make it anyway um she said throw the thing away I'm thinking in court again ladies and gentlemen he threw the stuff away I can't win so very cautious about all that kind of stuff um fair enough but I take it you won't be going for a holiday to Thailand anytime soon I didn't think so okay so how many do you know off the top of your head of your life how many years of your life have you spent in prison ultimately I did add it up once I'm 66 now and I suppose I've spent um but 22 years the thing that occurs to me and I met you before and I thought the same thing is like you obviously extremely intelligent extremely resourceful it can't be well but well anyway but do you regret the choices you made in terms of do you see those 22 years in prison as something you had no control over it's just the way the dice rolled or do you see them as a mistake on your part um worse than a mistake mistake suggest you didn't know uh where you were going wrong I was taking those steps into uh of a precipice that I'd defied there is no gravity I said I said I will work out something before I hit the ground um when I was It was kind of in stages when I was young it was just arrogance and and showing off and later on when everything was destroyed it was kind of I'd scraped away all of my life and would just go on um then in the third stage it was escaping away from places rebuilding up and being weakened every time it was taken away again um and do I regret it yeah I'm sure I um no you know some people say oh yeah but David just smuggled everything on Earth you scumbag you you know um think of the lives you've destroyed and the people you've heard ah and I go to start to explain that it's not quite black and white uh I mean I've had drug habits myself that I've carelessly allowed um but I thought what's the point anything I say we just sound like self-justification so well don't listen to me then you know but things that have happened that have taught me a lot it's interesting you say that because one of a lot of the comments on our well on the first video we did a lot of the comments where people saying someone needs to make a movie about this guy but a lot of the other comments were people saying he's so charismatic and likable but he must be a really dangerous person to have been involved with all these worlds for so long and um we've interviewed a couple of drug smugglers and I would say they're the ones that I've met have been the ones that probably are more someone you'd see is traditionally quite an obviously dangerous person you come across as very Charming charismatic roguish where do you see yourself on that scale do you see yourself as someone who was dangerous or do you see yourself as someone who's just moved from area to area as it occurred um kind of like this a dangerous I suppose what most people see that and you know if somebody was a problem for me would I find the best option to have them killed or not but really there always was a kind of Vestige of that's a failure if you can't think of anything better than to have them killed then then then what are you doing there's a million clever ways of solving your problems and that besides which there's always going to be people you can't kill everybody um not only that who killed the killers that you've got to do the killing you know you know they always say that about the quiet ones and all of that but it was the people who bothered to put up a smoke screen um they're establishing a um later Alibi a courtroom personality but I met him he didn't seem bothered by all of that why would he have him killed and those are the ones that um seem to be more dangerous and if I was such a dangerous person like that I certainly been absolute fool to break from that mold and say otherwise wouldn't it very true David it's great to see you again thank you so much for coming in always a pleasure yeah and I've Got a Feeling we'll be seeing you again at some point as well it's possible it does may cross thank you I'll be like oh my God they're in my head they they know they know that was a song and so they put that song on the radio and it's all everything revolves around me or you know and this happened well sometimes happens today you know I'm I'm thinking of someone in my head someone under there like on the street	get 20 off and free shipping all you have to do is go to manscape.com and use the code minutes that's manscape.com m-i-n-u-t-e-s minutes um so why are we doing that the risk is it worth it I didn't want to play anymore right I wanted to uh see if I could have a something resembling like a a real life just to find some corner of the world plan was to to return to London and oh so you were leaving forever I'm leaving forever okay I see nobody knew it um I had a couple of hundred thousand in Thailand I thought um which I returned to pick up um now I suppose people say this Crooks always say this most unusual circumstances led to my arrest well they were but then again they always are aren't they or you wouldn't be telling the story or you wouldn't have been arrested but um the USDA was involved lots of people lots of players uh no real drugs are found uh they did an airport sweep and listed me up for like an ounce of something and a false passport or two the money I had just disappeared into pockets but those when I arrived there I felt so free I knew this identity was good I just like floating on air really I slipped out of my protective mode you know that when we stick to the plan and all right you don't want to leave I should	-5	7	3	oh so you were leaving forever	I'm leaving forever okay I see	0,-5,2	0,0,5	0	-5	2	0	0	5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyZyHHexx7s	4,101	oyZyHHexx7s	2022-12-07 00:00:00	even though I was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off I couldn't get people to go with me I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars [Music] it's great to have you back David obviously we've met before but for anyone who doesn't know who you are for new listeners or new viewers could you give us a brief introduction to what you are famous for well I suppose uh most well known for uh having escaped to prison in Thailand in Bangkok uh the biggest one they have there clong Prim it uh wasn't something I did frivolously I was going to be executed within a couple of weeks so it seemed like a good time to leave okay now um we're going to get into that in a bit more detail but one thing that I remember about you from last time is you're the most incredible talker and we took away the inter the initial interview we've done with you and ended up having to make it into two long episodes because you have a lot of different very colorful uh experiences so do forgive me if I Jimmy us through oh no I can understand that I mean the only place I never talk is in the police station I always like some of my uh work colleagues took um what was it one slap to get them talking but five to shut them up oh okay so let's go right back to the beginning um you were born in the UK and then I believe you emigrated to Australia well um it was all a family thing yes I was born in basewater in London I spent the first few years of my life then uh there but my parents broke up divorced and I went with my mother to Australia with my older sister so I don't have any really very early memories of London apart from some old eight millimeter movie footage of me learning to walk in Hyde Park my dad was waving a five pound note in front of my face and I was making every effort to grab it I continued that behavior for many many years afterwards returned to Australia um finished some schooling um got really contrasting jobs I worked in an adult Agency for a while um but also before that I was got a job in a cinema now it was the and under literally an underground place but it was there that I got introduced to a bunch of crooks um some of the girls there had boyfriends that I used to run down with um strange boxes or bits of money or fur coats and then wink at me bolt out the back door pursued by often policemen undercover ones of course whom we'd misdirect somewhere but that Circle they were um safe crackers and they really didn't trust Outsiders and didn't much like the sound of me but because of I demonstrated a couple of things by being look everybody was really very anti-authority then I I don't mean hostile but for people now they they wouldn't have experienced that in the uh late 60s 70s we were so snotty and arrogant we really thought we were going to change the world and that um the laws were all nothing and the way to change them was to break them well that was the kind of vanity we had so um when I got to know the safe crackers uh better there was something really interesting I mean I didn't like the idea you know stealing things seemed a bit tacky but on the other hand they kind of all needed the money from the from their backgrounds and everything but that wasn't so much the the interest it was the technicalities of getting into these things okay um they used to drill through the top um having anchored it with the drill with clamps and and put a kind of little lens inside a cystoscope used in medicine and watch the the wheels turning around this is the old kind of old-fashioned Hollywood style it was yeah and um behind the safe were three discs and you had to line them up and they'd once they got in they'd take the door with them so that the opposition the safe makers wouldn't know how they'd got in and it was a a constant battle between the manufacturers and them because they've come across new safes which had Special Metals in it that was mixed like a a crunchy nut bar very hard metals very soft ones so the drill bit would slip on them snap and you got a sense that this was almost like a game where um they would try something then try to beat them and they were very loyal to each other um they they never spoke out of school as it were um when I got involved with them I'd only have to if I had trouble I don't have to make one phone call and people would appear out of nowhere and I thought yeah this this is kind of better than the treacherous boys school that I I grew up in and how old were you at this point um 19 years old 19. so were you thinking you were making a conscious decision to move into illegal activities or at that point in time and at that point in the world did it feel like more of a kind of a bit of roguish fun would you say I was drawn to it anyway because it was interesting and um I didn't really have a lot of fear I think sometimes what we do or don't do is depending on how scary it seems yeah agreed um I was born with a low resting heart rate as they say you know if it's below 70 you're a risk taker I don't know why that is when the safe crackers retired they put some of their money into growing little crops of weed and so on but profit margin is is only through importing because like the price difference is cheap in the source countries expensive where it sells so because they couldn't do it they were almost throwing it down like a challenge like we don't know anybody who can do this and I thought well I traveled a lot um I didn't think it was going to be impossible um I thought the odds were in my phone and I looked it up I went to the library and sort of researched it a bit and where were you thinking which country Well they um they were very keen to get some um hashish from India or Nepal or somewhere okay I could see um it's bulky and there's packing problems so um they funded me and off I sailed now the operation my first operation was so deplorably bad I'm barely 20 years old I my cunning plan which involved a big piece of exported Machinery which had weights in it so the weights would come out the cash would go in it would weigh the same being returned and it was a piece of Television equipment or something that went South immediately when I didn't realize that I would have to pay a huge deposit in duty to even bring it in as a demo machine so forget that I ended up in short meeting a guy in a money exchange section of a bank I was there because I ran out and I had to send asking for more from the boys and I met him and he wasn't involved in any of this but he soon became that just he managed to get me six kilos of hash I took the 1952 ancient Grundig radio from his parents house the Shelf there guttered the thing like a fish wrapped it up and he had to get cling film in those days think of this before you travel arriving with a suitcase full of cling film doesn't look good I suppose but uh wedged it in there and then just flew back to Sydney now you can imagine what happened well just before we get on to what happened you know one thing that strikes me is what year was would this have been this was uh 77 77 so it's amazing think that back then if someone was going to India for the first time now they could go on Google Maps they could research it or they could find out who they could find phone numbers contacts they could be put in contact with people before they've even set off whereas you must have at that age at that time been going in slightly blind you know touching down in a foreign country that you didn't know well no contacts was that not quite daunting well what was more um troubling with um how everything would fail and then I'd have to um you know come up with another plan what context somebody I knew um um there were no bank robber who joined the hare krishnas and fled to India right and I had his name and and the ashram in Delhi where where he was was supposed to have been uh I didn't really catch up with him on that trip but okay sure so so then you get back to Australia with your radio that is now full to the brim with and I get stopped you you did get stopped okay I could stop because uh I'm I'm on a British passport um and it's the only trip I've ever done and I'm that age I'd stop me oh fatherly type was at the Customs desk now the the systems were different in those days um it was Sydney too which is very and certainly was very relaxed back then right he opened the suitcase uh there was nothing in there except a pair of socks there's a towel wrapping up this massive radio which he lifted up so it was buckled at the sides little red packets poking out oh it smelled like a hedgehog for a patchouliers okay not much of a disguise um he let me go he uh put it back looked around to make sure that none of his workmates were watching him being so soft um and then turned to me and said you're going back there you're going to do this again [Music] all right you can take your we'll call it a radio shall we get out of here what he thought I realized later was that he didn't want the whole grammar of the day arresting me filling out papers and it would have been a a long time plus I guess being a dad he thought if I he's obviously an idiot you're right if I send him into Gladiator Academy or it wasn't really like that in those days but certainly contact center um the prison what am I doing um well I guess uh he was hopeful you know I whilst out of there must have smuggling me but I experienced then what um I got years later which was kind of a real Downer after you know having got nowhere with The Hare krishnas and and cultivated the shoeshine boys and had my money stolen at Amex uh by some Scallywags in Delhi all sorts of Little Adventures over there in India and nonetheless made it it's kind of like that's all there is to it I I didn't really want to give it to anyone um sort of felt like you didn't have a big moment of no a bit of money that came earlier that's handy right uh I paid back what I owed and settled up for for the next thing so but once that was started when you sorry I interrupted you go oh I was just going to say it to finish it even though they'd funded me the guys were very surprised to see me back but at all at all oh you made it oh because some of them say oh you'll just run away with it uh even if that's what he's doing who knows what he's doing you know and then I could see sitting around you can imagine there's like a table full of well like three guys and then a kind of Darkness shrouded over that room I thought uh it's not valuable enough to kill me you know what what is this mood why did you bring that well that's what you've been talking about yeah you could have loaded that with cane or smack or something you guys we say nothing but terrible things about a class or heavy drugs that don't want to know about it right and I could read then that wait a minute there we're all might be guys together and having fun getting into the safe and whatnot but there was a kind of different it was something a very strong lesson I'd have to be thoughtful about that um there could be times where things didn't work out not necessarily that my safety was at risk I didn't see it that way but I knew that there were Ruthless People right okay yeah so you got an insight into a mindset that had been a bit below the surface it was there I just chose not to see it but um I then went on to you know refine everything and Vary everything and then did you after that first time did you were you still working sort of for them or did you immediately well when you wake up on your own when things um I picked up and there was enough money around out of uh out of strategy rather than just being a nice guy I gave my partners a kind of thank you bonus from the next thing that I did but I did that all myself right so it was almost like a yeah separation and I wanted to go back to the my hippie friends anyway they were a little less it wasn't that they were scary but but that didn't last because they were maybe friends might be all right but they will certainly careless and stupid but from from that point onwards after that initial Journey was that you then into the world of smuggling I thought this won't last forever you only need one setback and that changes it I probably made quite a lot of money and I could have got out but and I should have gotta you know I have couriers a leak from one of the the couriers brought the police to me and here was the problem with it it was at first I scattered now I was married to my first wife then clearly Italian girl her dad had restaurants I grabbed her I had a secret drawer with extra passports in it some money ended up four plane Journeys later in um off the Bahamas had the skipper of a day rent yacht and take me out to an island and nobody had ever been on before it was empty sat there on a towel I thought hmm the level of surveillance I had means it's quite a big operation they're funded and I checked with a lawyer before the bigger the money they spent the more determined they'll be stay away or go back I mean I don't know why would anybody do this uh well I wasn't broke um I didn't have to there was no pressure on me the more I went through the problems the more attractive the whole thing is uh she didn't like it much well again do you think because it was a puzzle to be solved because um arrogance really we've gone from basically someone who was kind of mildly interested in making a group of people meeting a group of um safe hackers to someone who pulled off their first thing and then we've jumped to someone who has people working for them and and now is no longer taking the risk themselves now the police are on to you and you're on this desert island well small island and you're thinking about going back into it was this like a turning point in your life in terms of going you know because the other option I suppose was to go straight but were you just more it was that just not an option for you I'd gone to my lawyer Ralph he said look this is what I picked up because I my travel agent had tipped me to a couple of detectives that come in he traveled again while I was in on the phone okay uh actually they're all innocent really yeah you know and and gave him a long list of names um they wanted travel details for and a telephone number which I traced uh to um a private office building which had been rented by state and federal police they were so distrusting of their own they didn't want to even run this thing from um regular police headquarters my lawyer said well what you sure it's you said Ralph look at the list of names there's 30 there I'm 26 of them passports are a lot easier to get back then than there now so you had 26 aliases that you were traveling on yeah right okay um and I described where they were he said David they are funded well they're not bear this in mind but although I what they won't get me with anything they're funded you think they're going to walk away after a year and say oh sorry boss you spend a million dollars and uh nothing doing they don't work like that but this is how stubborn I was I thought because he said the only thing you can do is disappear for at least a couple of years and then you can come back if that's what you want and of course I had justifications for it I thought okay I'll I'll build up a bit more money and then I'll disappear but um it was only after things went terribly badly that I realized I shouldn't play like this anymore what it was they um because the challenge just kept coming so now so did you go back to Australia I went back to Australia and and when I retired within three months right but they weren't waiting for you to arrest you or no no they wanted they wanted something solid okay [Music] um I won't go into the long machinations of it all but um somebody we knew uh was getting things from a Thai Courier and he got arrested he sold us out to the police so that that The Courier would now come to us and I always have some solid evidence right he would bring things but we got away with that because that was another challenge but the police got tired of all this arrested me no drugs of course so it was a difficult case the worst kind of case is that where there's no solid evidence and in a way it's better to go to court where you've got a Smoking Gun and a dead body on the ground because at least you know where you are but where there's nothing tangible and it's conspiracies and this was a huge trial six months long what is that 119 Witnesses 6 000 pages of uh telephone intercept massive thing won't made it worse too and I think this was um would change things for me um the pressure was put on for confessions but it'd be silly to confess and you can't confess on somebody else's behalf can you that's not nice um lots of the family were arrested even my mother was taken and it went oh wow just to put pressure on uh did she know what you did oh she had an idea right okay I mean I used to have bin liners full of money I'd leave behind the fridge yeah you don't get that in the cinema do you not done not a very good day you know uh because they arrested so many people now when they arrested our wives and my business partner Michael his wife just had a baby it was we had to do a deal here I didn't want to but I was going to say I said to Michael look I know you don't like it but we'll play to it get the girls out of trouble we'll Escape that's a good challenge that way [Music] um but unfortunately um the intelligence section put an arsonist Informer in with the girls to get some information her fire was lit uh burnt down the women's prison and my wife and my business partner's wife was were killed uh that's awful and so the Informer that they put in there yeah why did they pick an arsonist for Daniel writer name was I don't know why I remember that after 40 years God so that's quite a big that was oh and and just uh to make things worse the story put about town to scare the careers into talking because they wouldn't speak was that we'd we were killing off all the witnesses and starting with our own family where does that come from um we ended up in a super max prison nightmarish electronic zoo with two inch glass and electronic doors and insane inmates held 48 death rate 27 people a year died in that little supermax going to court in Chains with a SWAT team taking it it was so so much Michael fell to pieces he was just a wreck he didn't make it uh he survived the jail but died when he got out the only way I could survive all of that was to strip away everything I you know I found myself in the supermax concrete everything's concrete the bed everything there's no everything's still just with the tape player from my lure listening to the the tapes the bug tapes the microphones in my house I could play back my life for the last six months clearly you're moving from room to room taking telephone calls she was crying about something I didn't know what I never know and David that's gone immerse yourself in the worst that they have you will not survive this otherwise trial sort of went not so good acquitted of most things but convicted enough 10 years difficult imprisonment but I the only way I could deal with it was to say did I want revenge that was more my fault I brought this about I got her in there I mean a family of a very kind to me about it considering I wouldn't be but it doesn't matter in Chains and super Mech strip it all away it is nothing everyone is a potential enemy everything it just nothing mattered win the day win the night I mean this is a place we had to fill in a book to get some toilet paper the showers were in front of them in a glass box um if you went on a visit they'd zip you up and lock you in a suit so you had no pockets there was after that and her death I felt like there was nothing that could affect me you're wrong about these things you know we're human but I got out and they were there they even visited me to say we'll be on you when you get out the police yeah we enjoyed the old days didn't you yeah I said pretending you know and just to make the point that they were there when I got out um I I'd done a whole lot of Woodwork in the prison in the last place I was at carving intricate things making these really great trick Chinese boxes with beeswax they intercepted the van that was taking it from the prison back to my house and smashed it all to pieces I put it in a box just to say don't think that we will never be here we can do what we want so I decided to leave the country I was um how old am I by then let's work it out yeah uh I started all this Mischief when I was about 18 got arrested at 22. 23 uh um 16 years 17 years either under surveillance or in bad prisons got out and I'm under surveillance again um so how old so you're number 37 about 37. so that's already you know that's a big chunk of Life there but you've lost quite a lot of it to prison or surveillance well at no point now were you like okay and I wasn't a normal person uh really when I got out because of the experience of prison I'd already stripped most of Myself Away to deal with the death of the Superman yeah and and watching people be burnt to death in the place which was frequent somebody had contact glue pulled all over him and then satellite oh God Gods came in and the other one's standing there with a Tire swinging it around to make sure to let him burn let him burn Jesus Barry's name was testicles swollen like apples but black okay he died two hours later in hospital anyway um that was regular account to deal with that I'd already strip things away so when I got a little apartment when I got out and my mother had arranged things for me when they were there when they'd leave rude messages on my answer machine when they'd be behind me everywhere I thought all right I remember this David it never ends if you want to survive go back to the way you were you know in in the super max Anything Can Happen anytime but I didn't want to live like that um I got a fresh passport and most elaborate means um I could spend a week explaining how that came into existence but I went to Thailand to pick up some money I had three days there it was just before Christmas I left at that time on purpose so that they maybe I thought maybe it's their weak point that they want to have families in their life just at Christmas I've parked my mum's car and and left the keys somewhere for her nobody knew were you not meant to leave the country no no no licenses oh I see we're just going to take a minute here to talk about a sponsor of this show which is manscaped we were sent a package to try out by manscaped but Conor one of our producers is already a fan of the brand I believe yeah absolutely I've been using manscape for a little while now and Ben as you know it's that time of year people start asking you what you want for Christmas and I would say that a great gift for a man especially one that might have everything is the manscape performance package 4.0 so what's in that so you get the lawnmower 4.0 electric trimmer you get some anti-chafe boxer shorts which I can vouch for as well as a couple of other grooming products that smell great fantastic well it sounds like a five-star review from uconnor absolutely so Connor you were talking about the performance package there's loads of other great gift ideas such as the hygiene bundle all available at manscape.com com and all gifts that men will genuinely love to receive this Christmas if you are a listener of this podcast you get 20 off and free shipping all you have to do is go to manscape.com and use the code minutes that's manscape.com m-i-n-u-t-e-s minutes um so why are we doing that the risk is it worth it I didn't want to play anymore right I wanted to uh see if I could have a something resembling like a a real life just to find some corner of the world plan was to to return to London and oh so you were leaving forever I'm leaving forever okay I see nobody knew it um I had a couple of hundred thousand in Thailand I thought um which I returned to pick up um now I suppose people say this Crooks always say this most unusual circumstances led to my arrest well they were but then again they always are aren't they or you wouldn't be telling the story or you wouldn't have been arrested but um the USDA was involved lots of people lots of players uh no real drugs are found uh they did an airport sweep and listed me up for like an ounce of something and a false passport or two the money I had just disappeared into pockets but those when I arrived there I felt so free I knew this identity was good I just like floating on air really I slipped out of my protective mode you know that when we stick to the plan and all right you don't want to leave I should have even stayed there for six months just get some sensible view of the world but I I didn't uh and as I went to the airport I could see they were all around me and I melted back into the crowd and disappeared again I thought well that serves me right for changing that attitude I'd had from back in super max and I just glaze over concentrate on the details which I needed to do because when I went to make a phone call later at the travel agency uh waiting it was so depressing being thrown into the Thai prison and I had some idea what they'd be like um people I'd known had been arrested there I knew this much it never won a case you never get out well you get out and what were they arresting you for was it the the uh the passport um what did the the the money wasn't I mean what did they leave 4 000 or something like that right and there are airports we put um I saw the guy walking in with it in a plastic bag you know whatever people throw on the floor before they go through security there was a bit of hash this usual bits of weed but what they really wanted was um this 25 grams of heroin because that would finish me off a policeman um Australian one said was that yours yeah yeah sure it was he said I didn't think so what would you be carrying around that for I mean if it was 10 kilos I might understand but but that was enough the death penalty and was it yours no no no so where where would that come from if you do they do a sweep every afternoon at five o'clock they get tons of it right I get you know nervous passengers go up and then they change their minds and they throw it in the toilet too and were they just did do you think they believed it was yours or do you think they were just going this is we need to give him this bit no no I think they were using it hoping to that would be good to hold and maybe they could get something else find out what I was up to who I was seeing because I had met um somebody who's whose uncle was a big player right so there was there was I think they were optimistic there might be more Camp come out of it but but there wasn't but what difference did it make and I wasn't really worried about um those drugs or the death penalty I wanted to die anyway frankly my first escape plans from there had this I imagine getting out to find the Privacy to kill myself right I wanted to go to the dusa Tony Hotel I knew Which floor and where to get onto the roof I'd taken photographs from there many years before um they were you simply couldn't get a moment's piece dormitories with 150 guys in them screaming all night um we can't even take a crap in peace in the Thai prison We're Not Afraid though of what killing myself well no I mean I don't know being brutalized by the guards or the inmates so well I knew enough about Thailand to to know that it was a little more comic than than bad there were very bad things happen they used to um they've beaten people a couple of people get beaten to death every day there but it's a very big prison we have to get that in proportion I only wish they wouldn't use the food trolley to take the dead bodies out because um you know they don't clean them up um and could you speak the language or were you quite it was a quite different communication uh not really uh and the few languages that uh pitch up in my travels I always found that even if you know them it's better to pretend you don't okay um because they'll talk about you behind your back you know certainly didn't live it on there was I I just couldn't see any point I'd gone to such elaborate precautions on this trip um it just shouldn't have happened and I even got away from the airport and still it happened oh all that confidence that I'll figure a way out I didn't care anymore I just had enough um and I remember seeing an old guy there if you had to go to court they put change on you and um you'd line up on the ground now this old guy I was looking at him because I don't know why a big soundtrack went past he had the presence of mind to push his head under that sand truck and oh it twisted it around popped like a watermelon being dropped on the ground oh my God guys very annoyed told the trustees to get that thing away out of sight was that nice thing called it I thought you Brave bastard you yeah you've got the guts to do that was it not quite a disturbing thing to witness no it was shocking because if you haven't seen it kind of thing up close and I happen to be looking um it was uh but that that's how I felt about it but I was saved In The End by a con man and people say a lot of bad things about economy they do yes they do and they uh you can't be trusted uh they are rottenness and they will cheat you just because they're the Scorpion that's in their nature uh but sometimes they're just what you need and this rather smooth um Bostonian American um who spoke Thai and really knew his way around and I you know I thought the somewhere in this huge prison there'd be an enclave of rich and corrupt foreigners with loads of money and there'd be luxuries it wasn't there was nobody of any importance in there you know a couple of big sacrifices had been made but um a couple of very rich policemen who were in the hospital in intensive care but other than that it was it was just um the people who reached the absolute bottom Drifters in Asia who did run after run and then got sacrificed to the machine they'd get about four jobs a big Syndicate there operating careers had run four times bang they'd shot them to the police they'd be gone oh God they will turn told the same story and it was Joe it was this guest house it was such and such identical and um and and at this point had you been sentenced to death had you received oh no no no I I was trying to avoid that yeah once I came to my senses because the the Boston con had so many wonderful schemes medical thing to get me bail and know some way of a escape with a go to court I get snatched from there I had villains come over and and scope out the court too because there was a way I thought of getting out of there from the lift that took you up to the the building uh snatched from the middle as you go down changed into a different set of clothes but they all got scared thing about um some of our most loved uh and fearless villains they're pretty good in the local manner but you throw them into a place like that where people carry machine guns and shoot at will just for the hell of it not so confident they like the upper edge of being snakes um so I couldn't convince anybody to really help and it was just as well um and two and a half years passed there in this prison it's a long time it was I sort of perked up a little bit pulled myself together started exercising um got a couple of ATM cards over hadn't my favorite god um he was in charge of the the building bought myself a room renovated um so you had you bought a room within the prison that was just for you rented that's rented right you know and is that an official thing that you're allowed to do right there are places in the world where it's official right but you had an influx of money that you could pay for special treats you could survive there on um less than 500 pounds a month and be king oh wow was this the 70s or the 80s now by the way we're into um 90 495 19 the 495 because what's reported about you is that during the 80s you were a multi-millionaire um is that accurate um now what do we call a multi-millionaires a young halfway with a million and a quarter on a glass coffee table and looks around the living room and thinks I've got to get a sofa one of these days um oh goes to the car auctions in the morning buys a big yank tank with a 427 Chevy engine in it um drives it around makes his own car parking spaces you know we're smashing the front in backing the other one pushing the other cars out of the way um oh stoned off my head most of the time uh if I wasn't stunned enough I'd take a few mandracks just to colludes icing on the cake um so I didn't take care of the money and the money didn't take care of me so I guess I'm like the reason I the reason I asked was because it must have been quite a stark change going from a very rich existence to basically somewhere where you basically couldn't pay for anything initially and it was a very poor existence but I guess from what you're saying there it's not like you felt like you were Rich at the time um I've made that contrast a few times when I had my first big arrest I couldn't as I was in a cold near lightless cell of blue stone and horse hair mattress about two inches thick and wrecking a piss I would think back to the night before when I had my important to tell in huge bed and Irish linen sheets and swimming pool out there and um and we had to kind of shake off the contrast but that rubber banding must must have been hard to take because it's you're going from basically the aspiration of almost everyone where you're talking about just buying cars outright and having a swimming pool to a piss stinking bed you know it must be it was you know it's odd thing about it was providing I could see a way out a work a way out I didn't so much mind oh okay um I really trained myself to expect my whatever world I built up and and this happened several times I've done it five times had a new identity New Life new surroundings even new people and dang they're gone and every time it got worse um and there was even Thailand was desperately important because even though it was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it um you know I was somebody that nobody minded killing um so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah there's nothing like the prospect of being executed by a machine gun which is the way they did it God is that what it would have been wow yeah you know oh they'd have three guards all with a bit of string on the trigger and they'd all pull it once so that none of them could be condemned in the Buddhist sense of sin oh they don't even actually right I see it caused the bullet that finished you off oh I see so you're in the Thai prison you've been sentenced to uh rather unpleasant death penalty um how did you start coming up with this famous plan for escaping um desperation it was the last plan that looked like it was going to work um there were probably about 20 plans considered um everything from being the prison held I've since found out it holds 22 000 people oh my God in 10 sub prisons uh there's a women's section there's a young offenders there's a special reminder a drug unit all of that um just a wild place it has everything it even had a prisoner-run shop where you could extract you could borrow money against your account and cash anyway um one of the plans involved being welded into a VW Combi van in the prisons Auto Workshop which would be picked up early Monday morning and I'd be driven out and that another one was um there were several courtroom ones and you couldn't just pay your way out no no it's just you could pay to have a mobile phone which in those days was a rare thing but they were around um you could pay for a bottle of clong uh whiskey you could pay I'm sure you could pay to get a a girl in your room if you could work out what a room was that a whole section full of ladyboys there and got a building full of them they used to open it up on Saturdays so um you could pay for anything but not to leave they couldn't cover that and they couldn't trust each other you would need 25 30 different guards paid off and and the gods of visitors I mean too many guides no that wouldn't work and they looked at it as a kind of betrayal only if I saw two escapes attempts there one group of uh straight kids and a Singaporean got out of their cell incredibly turned themselves into the sleeping God when they'd all lied to each other about what they didn't have you know the ropes and ways out because they're it was so outraged that they'd spoiled the guys jobs they beat them to death slowly tortured them over three months to death having put them in little code lockers the soy they call them drag them out in elephant chains every day and batter them senseless uh internal bleeding usually did it um look I've got a bowl of rice and a painting to poo in that was it um even the water was it was just too horrible so if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off even my Swedish friends Sten the Viking he backed out at the last minute I couldn't get people to go with me all the other plants had fallen to bits because they depended on other people I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars and I needed equipment for that and here's a really important point I guess as bad as this world is you've got to try to find good people if you ask somebody if you asked your friend yeah and and you're finished you'll manage to get a phone call and say friend it's been here um I need you to get um I don't know four hacksaw blades and cut them into the dowel rods of a of a poster and then paint it all up and send it in a huge package with this that cable ties gaffer tape but disguise all that how many people are going to do it turn around wouldn't believe it Ben called me what his neck yeah he's screwed but anyway he wouldn't believe but he wants me to do this that now people don't do it but Michael on the other hand our business partner wouldn't even let me explain he hadn't heard from me in 18 months he said David don't explain I'm sure we could get cut off tell me the important part now where do I have to be and what do I have to bring no that's a friend um and so I've always tried to do the same for the others that I've known like that um but um I did get the equipment together that I needed and everything um about escapes from a big prison is not like your hope it's going to be you know I turned it out walked around the streets and it had streets inside it um and timed it with my trusty Casio and it was so I knew roughly how long it would take to get me but the night's a different world I'm a prisoner I'm only used to noise during the day even the fan chopping around in the Cell at night it's so quiet everything I did squeaked and rattled and twisted I came across a panel that had to be a nail had to come out and that and they'll protest it and scream their wrench out of the way it took um uh seven or eight worlds uh sorry seven or eight walls to cross over I say worlds because they really were every building was a different thing and I got lost and I went past the terminal AIDS Ward that building hundreds of guys all die and I could smell it before I got there because this necrotic Rotting Flesh and I couldn't resist looking in I'm carrying this huge long ladder made out of bamboo poles and fake picture frames gaffer taped along the center [Music] um and I looked up and I saw all these little faces in the Moonlight wrapped in so much pain and despair they didn't have the energy to cry out to the guards if they'd been in any other prisoners they would have the trustees there were absolute scum of the earth had whistled little uniforms sell the drugs one day and the rest of the guys for it the next all of that um and it was only by um well I only got to the outer wall by Dawn and if somebody had been with me I wouldn't have made it either you wouldn't have no imagine I've taken all night to get there and at each point where this something was unexpected I've had to dream up something and I get a little basic toolkit and I sometimes I'd have to sacrifice part of my ladder to make a hook to pull down barbed wire and the technique for using the thing was awkward you had to prop it walk up drop down the other side so you're twisting over the walls like that manual is entirely barbed wire so I had to go underneath it covered in mud the the last one was really too high and there was a Mars bar Creek the the moat that ran around I did you know if I was with somebody else we'd be arguing wouldn't we oh Spa Creek oh it was full of turds bombing around it was caught out of the sewer yeah you did ask um illustrative okay we're just gonna take a quick break from the show to talk about a sponsor of this episode better help better help is an online Counseling Service which connects people to therapists and counselors I'm joined by one of our producers bryony is counseling something you've had experience with do you know what it's interesting because when I was growing up the same kind of challenges in life would happen but people wouldn't necessarily go to therapy or talk about therapy and I feel like since uh maybe my late teens early 20s people are starting to go to therapy and talking about it and I have definitely used it in my life and it's been massively beneficial same and do you because I think one of the things that people often mistake they think it's just for big things yeah but what's the other experience of that thing I think life always throws you know small challenges and large challenges and sometimes the big things need talking about but actually you know starting a new school or starting a new job can rile up that same level of anxiety and it's just really helpful to be able to talk to someone about it who is completely impartial not involved in your life and just kind of a safe space I guess to just say whatever you want to say you completely agree as the world's largest therapy service better help as much 3 million people with professionally licensed and vetted therapists available 100 online plus it's affordable just fill out a brief questionnaire to match with a therapist if things aren't clicking you can easily switch to a new therapist anytime it couldn't be simpler no waiting rooms no traffic no endless searching for the right therapist learn more and save 10 of your first month at betterhelp.com minutes with that's betterhelp help help.com minutes with um now there was one way of oh Beyond marsburg create this a foot and a half of land before this huge huge wall you've got to get a ladder that's too heavy to carry too imbalanced to do anything with but you've got a bit of rope how do you get it to the other side of Mars bar which has all got tangled barb wire in that so it'll catch get it in place and up against the wall when you've got no ground to to walk on now there is a way and uh I guess people have to listen to me describe it either to you or in my book okay fine but too long to tell here sure but um I could see the glow of dawn as I got to the top which had electricity running through it too just to make it the top of the wall dead yeah yeah wow but um my friend who um was in there a bit of a technician is to belong to the anarchist Society in in Britain how would you belong to a society that has rules when you anyway putting that aside he did tell me that it would only be 240 volts but to be careful um and just managed to get over that and because the original plan was to um oh there was an outer moat beyond that of 20 meters I had my clothes ready to go into a plastic bag swim the moat but just as well I didn't um because all it turned out all the guards houses were over the other side of that moat this would not be a place to go but I cleaned myself up threw some clothes on and I one of the jobs that I didn't do but I was supposed to be doing was working in the Umbrella Factory so I paid a local boy to do it um I've got a pop-up umbrella from there I thought you know you really get a perspective about I want to just simple discrimination but being an outsider a foreigner the way sometimes people feel picked upon you know we were called the white trash and we were in in Chains and everything so I knew I had to cover my face in the popular did it and I managed to get to a place where a passport was hidden and to the airport and still had a working ATM card to get me out of the country into Singapore so did you end up with the umbrella did you walk out the front gate yeah I did I had some long trousers on now in their prisoners are not allowed to wear them so I had some khaki pants I thought they might as I walked around the the narrow path to the front gate it's still mote but a little Bridge I thought another figure it's a guard arriving late and sneaking in and I did I felt like Ripley an alien uh looking at thinking lucky lucky this is where it all ends doesn't it and I'm thinking that every moment and looking up and there was just enough light rain to justify the umbrella yeah I would learn later that was actually the not a rain from the gods but the spittle of their laughter because they had worse things in mind for me later on I mean it's so it's you know how many people are you aware how many people had escaped from that prison up to that point was it some every year or was it very infrequent none um the ties sometimes ran away when they were doing the gardens in Chains outside but Escape From Within um I'd known of in 20 years people could recall two attempts no foreigners um and they didn't trust the foreigners that's why they put you on the third floor right quite rightly yes and and how long had it taken you from like the beginning of the uh I started cutting at um 11 45 I paid a lot to get a light switch in there normally the lights are on all the time um okay and I said to my favorite guard oh yeah Ponting or whatever his name was I can't sleep with that thing I'll put a light switch in um um now they didn't say it as corruption or bribe taking they thought I'm doing this nice guy a favor and I'll be lucky because of it that's a very big thing over there you know if I get caught I'm unlucky then so they can batter me to death I mean sure it's kind of self-justifies any action that a human being might take so he started cutting around eight for 11 45 11 45 okay it's quite close through one bar by two in the morning oh God stencia listen we'll go on the next note I looked around and Kevin the American from Hawaii I didn't even know this was happening uh Mirage the Indian I know he's going to talk the next morning he was kakaria LA pantaloni right in the cell never mind holding out and not saying anything he would have it would have been finished I never would have made it and I guess I could have seen the missing bars potentially but I learned later on I actually caught up with somebody who was in there Scottish guy um he was there for selling ecstasy to the Two well-off Sons and Daughters of wealthy policemen anyway um he remembers they the guards couldn't figure that I'd left oh um he said David they ran around the the prison calling out your name it was Daniel Westlake while I was there Daniel Daniel they okay that somebody drew their attention to the cut bar in there yeah my Scottish friend said they the gods wanted they thought that okay he's got out he's angry about something uh Daniel but he's not actually he'll never get out he couldn't get it they never found the the ladder down the front wall until much much later so for um uh uh only one of them said oh we better check the airport they sent a couple of guys down there um just a little bit late and you were gone by then only just and remember man you've got a passport from a Chinese connection that you barely know but kind of like the cut of his jib but are you gonna put your life on the line on that and at every moment you're handing it over you know like the look of it yeah they don't like the look of it they're typing it up and you're thinking they got onto the computer have they done that bit uh have they entered my arrival was this I knew it was freshly stolen or sold off was only a few weeks old uh I mean not new was had only gone missing a few weeks earlier so it was still good but very nerve-wracking and I didn't have a photo I had to use my old um uh radio operators license that had a photograph in it to get reproduced into this thing so it was a bit grainy um and even on the plane it was delay and takeoff oh God and a mumbling Captain oh sorry um we we have a thing with one passenger I just asked what thing exactly soon enough thwomp doors to manual oh but I've got an hour you know looking at this passport I don't like it get to Singapore but I make it through so you got to Singapore yeah but you did end up going back to prison not a Thai prison but a different prison he's suggesting uh I did something wrong well I'm hoping you're going to tell me um no well okay uh I didn't stay in Singapore long because um I sat there in the hotel room unable to digest food not prepared by my own cook sure I in the hotel room in Singapore I realized you could work out who had left that day if they'd flown my air by simply going to the airport and children you work it out yourselves at home you check everybody who's left separate the foreigners hmm go a step further let's keep the Canadian and American the British the Australian New Zealand all the English-speaking passport Society um just to you know reduce the numbers take those names check with the embassies any of these names belong to lost or stolen passports that have been reported yeah five of them because that's Bangkok you know not the only Mischief maker there but nonetheless um they probably knew I could be who was I Charles McClintock hmm sorry Charles I had to borrow your passport but it was an essential cause but you're not wanted anymore of course are you no but I did get an unwelcome knock at the door some years ago uh by the police who um would it be to go excuse me Westminster Court known for the terrorist cases extradition or parking fights wow I'd lift the car anywhere lately so it was going to be one of the other two and it was extradition to Thailand I fought that case for two years and um it was difficult um but managed to effectively win in the end so the ties have dropped that one and I can't be taken back there I'm not wanted anywhere um I can nobody can do what they want but um I I'm not I haven't got anything pending I'm not in business I'm a bit cautious I even got sent something in the the mail a few years ago and I thought it was some gift from some halfway ambitious wombat in in Pakistan sending me a bit of dope thinking oh yeah there's a gift you might like that connection made no I mean people had my address all around the world ever since Danny Dyer um it turned out to be more complicated than that but um very dangerous for me to walk into a courtroom so I don't even imagine you're me and knock at the door oh here's something for you Ben you don't like the look of it you refuse it you're in court no matter why did you refuse that was it your name no you was up The Jig was up proof ladies and gentlemen oh you accept it ah you accepted it proof ladies and gentlemen wife saying to me Jeanette and whom I met in Pakistan years ago and she was there to fish out her husband on a two-ton hash deal he didn't make it anyway um she said throw the thing away I'm thinking in court again ladies and gentlemen he threw the stuff away I can't win so very cautious about all that kind of stuff um fair enough but I take it you won't be going for a holiday to Thailand anytime soon I didn't think so okay so how many do you know off the top of your head of your life how many years of your life have you spent in prison ultimately I did add it up once I'm 66 now and I suppose I've spent um but 22 years the thing that occurs to me and I met you before and I thought the same thing is like you obviously extremely intelligent extremely resourceful it can't be well but well anyway but do you regret the choices you made in terms of do you see those 22 years in prison as something you had no control over it's just the way the dice rolled or do you see them as a mistake on your part um worse than a mistake mistake suggest you didn't know uh where you were going wrong I was taking those steps into uh of a precipice that I'd defied there is no gravity I said I said I will work out something before I hit the ground um when I was It was kind of in stages when I was young it was just arrogance and and showing off and later on when everything was destroyed it was kind of I'd scraped away all of my life and would just go on um then in the third stage it was escaping away from places rebuilding up and being weakened every time it was taken away again um and do I regret it yeah I'm sure I um no you know some people say oh yeah but David just smuggled everything on Earth you scumbag you you know um think of the lives you've destroyed and the people you've heard ah and I go to start to explain that it's not quite black and white uh I mean I've had drug habits myself that I've carelessly allowed um but I thought what's the point anything I say we just sound like self-justification so well don't listen to me then you know but things that have happened that have taught me a lot it's interesting you say that because one of a lot of the comments on our well on the first video we did a lot of the comments where people saying someone needs to make a movie about this guy but a lot of the other comments were people saying he's so charismatic and likable but he must be a really dangerous person to have been involved with all these worlds for so long and um we've interviewed a couple of drug smugglers and I would say they're the ones that I've met have been the ones that probably are more someone you'd see is traditionally quite an obviously dangerous person you come across as very Charming charismatic roguish where do you see yourself on that scale do you see yourself as someone who was dangerous or do you see yourself as someone who's just moved from area to area as it occurred um kind of like this a dangerous I suppose what most people see that and you know if somebody was a problem for me would I find the best option to have them killed or not but really there always was a kind of Vestige of that's a failure if you can't think of anything better than to have them killed then then then what are you doing there's a million clever ways of solving your problems and that besides which there's always going to be people you can't kill everybody um not only that who killed the killers that you've got to do the killing you know you know they always say that about the quiet ones and all of that but it was the people who bothered to put up a smoke screen um they're establishing a um later Alibi a courtroom personality but I met him he didn't seem bothered by all of that why would he have him killed and those are the ones that um seem to be more dangerous and if I was such a dangerous person like that I certainly been absolute fool to break from that mold and say otherwise wouldn't it very true David it's great to see you again thank you so much for coming in always a pleasure yeah and I've Got a Feeling we'll be seeing you again at some point as well it's possible it does may cross thank you I'll be like oh my God they're in my head they they know they know that was a song and so they put that song on the radio and it's all everything revolves around me or you know and this happened well sometimes happens today you know I'm I'm thinking of someone in my head someone under there like on the street	have even stayed there for six months just get some sensible view of the world but I I didn't uh and as I went to the airport I could see they were all around me and I melted back into the crowd and disappeared again I thought well that serves me right for changing that attitude I'd had from back in super max and I just glaze over concentrate on the details which I needed to do because when I went to make a phone call later at the travel agency uh waiting it was so depressing being thrown into the Thai prison and I had some idea what they'd be like um people I'd known had been arrested there I knew this much it never won a case you never get out well you get out and what were they arresting you for was it the the uh the passport um what did the the the money wasn't I mean what did they leave 4 000 or something like that right and there are airports we put um I saw the guy walking in with it in a plastic bag you know whatever people throw on the floor before they go through security there was a bit of hash this usual bits of weed but what they really wanted was um this 25 grams of heroin because that would finish me off a policeman um Australian one said was that yours yeah yeah sure it was he said I	-5	8	-7	what were they arresting you for was it the the uh the passport um what did the the the money wasn't I mean what did they leave 4 000 or something like that right	was that yours yeah yeah sure it was he said	0,-5,-3	5,2,8	0	-5	-3	5	2	8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyZyHHexx7s	4,101	oyZyHHexx7s	2022-12-07 00:00:00	even though I was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off I couldn't get people to go with me I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars [Music] it's great to have you back David obviously we've met before but for anyone who doesn't know who you are for new listeners or new viewers could you give us a brief introduction to what you are famous for well I suppose uh most well known for uh having escaped to prison in Thailand in Bangkok uh the biggest one they have there clong Prim it uh wasn't something I did frivolously I was going to be executed within a couple of weeks so it seemed like a good time to leave okay now um we're going to get into that in a bit more detail but one thing that I remember about you from last time is you're the most incredible talker and we took away the inter the initial interview we've done with you and ended up having to make it into two long episodes because you have a lot of different very colorful uh experiences so do forgive me if I Jimmy us through oh no I can understand that I mean the only place I never talk is in the police station I always like some of my uh work colleagues took um what was it one slap to get them talking but five to shut them up oh okay so let's go right back to the beginning um you were born in the UK and then I believe you emigrated to Australia well um it was all a family thing yes I was born in basewater in London I spent the first few years of my life then uh there but my parents broke up divorced and I went with my mother to Australia with my older sister so I don't have any really very early memories of London apart from some old eight millimeter movie footage of me learning to walk in Hyde Park my dad was waving a five pound note in front of my face and I was making every effort to grab it I continued that behavior for many many years afterwards returned to Australia um finished some schooling um got really contrasting jobs I worked in an adult Agency for a while um but also before that I was got a job in a cinema now it was the and under literally an underground place but it was there that I got introduced to a bunch of crooks um some of the girls there had boyfriends that I used to run down with um strange boxes or bits of money or fur coats and then wink at me bolt out the back door pursued by often policemen undercover ones of course whom we'd misdirect somewhere but that Circle they were um safe crackers and they really didn't trust Outsiders and didn't much like the sound of me but because of I demonstrated a couple of things by being look everybody was really very anti-authority then I I don't mean hostile but for people now they they wouldn't have experienced that in the uh late 60s 70s we were so snotty and arrogant we really thought we were going to change the world and that um the laws were all nothing and the way to change them was to break them well that was the kind of vanity we had so um when I got to know the safe crackers uh better there was something really interesting I mean I didn't like the idea you know stealing things seemed a bit tacky but on the other hand they kind of all needed the money from the from their backgrounds and everything but that wasn't so much the the interest it was the technicalities of getting into these things okay um they used to drill through the top um having anchored it with the drill with clamps and and put a kind of little lens inside a cystoscope used in medicine and watch the the wheels turning around this is the old kind of old-fashioned Hollywood style it was yeah and um behind the safe were three discs and you had to line them up and they'd once they got in they'd take the door with them so that the opposition the safe makers wouldn't know how they'd got in and it was a a constant battle between the manufacturers and them because they've come across new safes which had Special Metals in it that was mixed like a a crunchy nut bar very hard metals very soft ones so the drill bit would slip on them snap and you got a sense that this was almost like a game where um they would try something then try to beat them and they were very loyal to each other um they they never spoke out of school as it were um when I got involved with them I'd only have to if I had trouble I don't have to make one phone call and people would appear out of nowhere and I thought yeah this this is kind of better than the treacherous boys school that I I grew up in and how old were you at this point um 19 years old 19. so were you thinking you were making a conscious decision to move into illegal activities or at that point in time and at that point in the world did it feel like more of a kind of a bit of roguish fun would you say I was drawn to it anyway because it was interesting and um I didn't really have a lot of fear I think sometimes what we do or don't do is depending on how scary it seems yeah agreed um I was born with a low resting heart rate as they say you know if it's below 70 you're a risk taker I don't know why that is when the safe crackers retired they put some of their money into growing little crops of weed and so on but profit margin is is only through importing because like the price difference is cheap in the source countries expensive where it sells so because they couldn't do it they were almost throwing it down like a challenge like we don't know anybody who can do this and I thought well I traveled a lot um I didn't think it was going to be impossible um I thought the odds were in my phone and I looked it up I went to the library and sort of researched it a bit and where were you thinking which country Well they um they were very keen to get some um hashish from India or Nepal or somewhere okay I could see um it's bulky and there's packing problems so um they funded me and off I sailed now the operation my first operation was so deplorably bad I'm barely 20 years old I my cunning plan which involved a big piece of exported Machinery which had weights in it so the weights would come out the cash would go in it would weigh the same being returned and it was a piece of Television equipment or something that went South immediately when I didn't realize that I would have to pay a huge deposit in duty to even bring it in as a demo machine so forget that I ended up in short meeting a guy in a money exchange section of a bank I was there because I ran out and I had to send asking for more from the boys and I met him and he wasn't involved in any of this but he soon became that just he managed to get me six kilos of hash I took the 1952 ancient Grundig radio from his parents house the Shelf there guttered the thing like a fish wrapped it up and he had to get cling film in those days think of this before you travel arriving with a suitcase full of cling film doesn't look good I suppose but uh wedged it in there and then just flew back to Sydney now you can imagine what happened well just before we get on to what happened you know one thing that strikes me is what year was would this have been this was uh 77 77 so it's amazing think that back then if someone was going to India for the first time now they could go on Google Maps they could research it or they could find out who they could find phone numbers contacts they could be put in contact with people before they've even set off whereas you must have at that age at that time been going in slightly blind you know touching down in a foreign country that you didn't know well no contacts was that not quite daunting well what was more um troubling with um how everything would fail and then I'd have to um you know come up with another plan what context somebody I knew um um there were no bank robber who joined the hare krishnas and fled to India right and I had his name and and the ashram in Delhi where where he was was supposed to have been uh I didn't really catch up with him on that trip but okay sure so so then you get back to Australia with your radio that is now full to the brim with and I get stopped you you did get stopped okay I could stop because uh I'm I'm on a British passport um and it's the only trip I've ever done and I'm that age I'd stop me oh fatherly type was at the Customs desk now the the systems were different in those days um it was Sydney too which is very and certainly was very relaxed back then right he opened the suitcase uh there was nothing in there except a pair of socks there's a towel wrapping up this massive radio which he lifted up so it was buckled at the sides little red packets poking out oh it smelled like a hedgehog for a patchouliers okay not much of a disguise um he let me go he uh put it back looked around to make sure that none of his workmates were watching him being so soft um and then turned to me and said you're going back there you're going to do this again [Music] all right you can take your we'll call it a radio shall we get out of here what he thought I realized later was that he didn't want the whole grammar of the day arresting me filling out papers and it would have been a a long time plus I guess being a dad he thought if I he's obviously an idiot you're right if I send him into Gladiator Academy or it wasn't really like that in those days but certainly contact center um the prison what am I doing um well I guess uh he was hopeful you know I whilst out of there must have smuggling me but I experienced then what um I got years later which was kind of a real Downer after you know having got nowhere with The Hare krishnas and and cultivated the shoeshine boys and had my money stolen at Amex uh by some Scallywags in Delhi all sorts of Little Adventures over there in India and nonetheless made it it's kind of like that's all there is to it I I didn't really want to give it to anyone um sort of felt like you didn't have a big moment of no a bit of money that came earlier that's handy right uh I paid back what I owed and settled up for for the next thing so but once that was started when you sorry I interrupted you go oh I was just going to say it to finish it even though they'd funded me the guys were very surprised to see me back but at all at all oh you made it oh because some of them say oh you'll just run away with it uh even if that's what he's doing who knows what he's doing you know and then I could see sitting around you can imagine there's like a table full of well like three guys and then a kind of Darkness shrouded over that room I thought uh it's not valuable enough to kill me you know what what is this mood why did you bring that well that's what you've been talking about yeah you could have loaded that with cane or smack or something you guys we say nothing but terrible things about a class or heavy drugs that don't want to know about it right and I could read then that wait a minute there we're all might be guys together and having fun getting into the safe and whatnot but there was a kind of different it was something a very strong lesson I'd have to be thoughtful about that um there could be times where things didn't work out not necessarily that my safety was at risk I didn't see it that way but I knew that there were Ruthless People right okay yeah so you got an insight into a mindset that had been a bit below the surface it was there I just chose not to see it but um I then went on to you know refine everything and Vary everything and then did you after that first time did you were you still working sort of for them or did you immediately well when you wake up on your own when things um I picked up and there was enough money around out of uh out of strategy rather than just being a nice guy I gave my partners a kind of thank you bonus from the next thing that I did but I did that all myself right so it was almost like a yeah separation and I wanted to go back to the my hippie friends anyway they were a little less it wasn't that they were scary but but that didn't last because they were maybe friends might be all right but they will certainly careless and stupid but from from that point onwards after that initial Journey was that you then into the world of smuggling I thought this won't last forever you only need one setback and that changes it I probably made quite a lot of money and I could have got out but and I should have gotta you know I have couriers a leak from one of the the couriers brought the police to me and here was the problem with it it was at first I scattered now I was married to my first wife then clearly Italian girl her dad had restaurants I grabbed her I had a secret drawer with extra passports in it some money ended up four plane Journeys later in um off the Bahamas had the skipper of a day rent yacht and take me out to an island and nobody had ever been on before it was empty sat there on a towel I thought hmm the level of surveillance I had means it's quite a big operation they're funded and I checked with a lawyer before the bigger the money they spent the more determined they'll be stay away or go back I mean I don't know why would anybody do this uh well I wasn't broke um I didn't have to there was no pressure on me the more I went through the problems the more attractive the whole thing is uh she didn't like it much well again do you think because it was a puzzle to be solved because um arrogance really we've gone from basically someone who was kind of mildly interested in making a group of people meeting a group of um safe hackers to someone who pulled off their first thing and then we've jumped to someone who has people working for them and and now is no longer taking the risk themselves now the police are on to you and you're on this desert island well small island and you're thinking about going back into it was this like a turning point in your life in terms of going you know because the other option I suppose was to go straight but were you just more it was that just not an option for you I'd gone to my lawyer Ralph he said look this is what I picked up because I my travel agent had tipped me to a couple of detectives that come in he traveled again while I was in on the phone okay uh actually they're all innocent really yeah you know and and gave him a long list of names um they wanted travel details for and a telephone number which I traced uh to um a private office building which had been rented by state and federal police they were so distrusting of their own they didn't want to even run this thing from um regular police headquarters my lawyer said well what you sure it's you said Ralph look at the list of names there's 30 there I'm 26 of them passports are a lot easier to get back then than there now so you had 26 aliases that you were traveling on yeah right okay um and I described where they were he said David they are funded well they're not bear this in mind but although I what they won't get me with anything they're funded you think they're going to walk away after a year and say oh sorry boss you spend a million dollars and uh nothing doing they don't work like that but this is how stubborn I was I thought because he said the only thing you can do is disappear for at least a couple of years and then you can come back if that's what you want and of course I had justifications for it I thought okay I'll I'll build up a bit more money and then I'll disappear but um it was only after things went terribly badly that I realized I shouldn't play like this anymore what it was they um because the challenge just kept coming so now so did you go back to Australia I went back to Australia and and when I retired within three months right but they weren't waiting for you to arrest you or no no they wanted they wanted something solid okay [Music] um I won't go into the long machinations of it all but um somebody we knew uh was getting things from a Thai Courier and he got arrested he sold us out to the police so that that The Courier would now come to us and I always have some solid evidence right he would bring things but we got away with that because that was another challenge but the police got tired of all this arrested me no drugs of course so it was a difficult case the worst kind of case is that where there's no solid evidence and in a way it's better to go to court where you've got a Smoking Gun and a dead body on the ground because at least you know where you are but where there's nothing tangible and it's conspiracies and this was a huge trial six months long what is that 119 Witnesses 6 000 pages of uh telephone intercept massive thing won't made it worse too and I think this was um would change things for me um the pressure was put on for confessions but it'd be silly to confess and you can't confess on somebody else's behalf can you that's not nice um lots of the family were arrested even my mother was taken and it went oh wow just to put pressure on uh did she know what you did oh she had an idea right okay I mean I used to have bin liners full of money I'd leave behind the fridge yeah you don't get that in the cinema do you not done not a very good day you know uh because they arrested so many people now when they arrested our wives and my business partner Michael his wife just had a baby it was we had to do a deal here I didn't want to but I was going to say I said to Michael look I know you don't like it but we'll play to it get the girls out of trouble we'll Escape that's a good challenge that way [Music] um but unfortunately um the intelligence section put an arsonist Informer in with the girls to get some information her fire was lit uh burnt down the women's prison and my wife and my business partner's wife was were killed uh that's awful and so the Informer that they put in there yeah why did they pick an arsonist for Daniel writer name was I don't know why I remember that after 40 years God so that's quite a big that was oh and and just uh to make things worse the story put about town to scare the careers into talking because they wouldn't speak was that we'd we were killing off all the witnesses and starting with our own family where does that come from um we ended up in a super max prison nightmarish electronic zoo with two inch glass and electronic doors and insane inmates held 48 death rate 27 people a year died in that little supermax going to court in Chains with a SWAT team taking it it was so so much Michael fell to pieces he was just a wreck he didn't make it uh he survived the jail but died when he got out the only way I could survive all of that was to strip away everything I you know I found myself in the supermax concrete everything's concrete the bed everything there's no everything's still just with the tape player from my lure listening to the the tapes the bug tapes the microphones in my house I could play back my life for the last six months clearly you're moving from room to room taking telephone calls she was crying about something I didn't know what I never know and David that's gone immerse yourself in the worst that they have you will not survive this otherwise trial sort of went not so good acquitted of most things but convicted enough 10 years difficult imprisonment but I the only way I could deal with it was to say did I want revenge that was more my fault I brought this about I got her in there I mean a family of a very kind to me about it considering I wouldn't be but it doesn't matter in Chains and super Mech strip it all away it is nothing everyone is a potential enemy everything it just nothing mattered win the day win the night I mean this is a place we had to fill in a book to get some toilet paper the showers were in front of them in a glass box um if you went on a visit they'd zip you up and lock you in a suit so you had no pockets there was after that and her death I felt like there was nothing that could affect me you're wrong about these things you know we're human but I got out and they were there they even visited me to say we'll be on you when you get out the police yeah we enjoyed the old days didn't you yeah I said pretending you know and just to make the point that they were there when I got out um I I'd done a whole lot of Woodwork in the prison in the last place I was at carving intricate things making these really great trick Chinese boxes with beeswax they intercepted the van that was taking it from the prison back to my house and smashed it all to pieces I put it in a box just to say don't think that we will never be here we can do what we want so I decided to leave the country I was um how old am I by then let's work it out yeah uh I started all this Mischief when I was about 18 got arrested at 22. 23 uh um 16 years 17 years either under surveillance or in bad prisons got out and I'm under surveillance again um so how old so you're number 37 about 37. so that's already you know that's a big chunk of Life there but you've lost quite a lot of it to prison or surveillance well at no point now were you like okay and I wasn't a normal person uh really when I got out because of the experience of prison I'd already stripped most of Myself Away to deal with the death of the Superman yeah and and watching people be burnt to death in the place which was frequent somebody had contact glue pulled all over him and then satellite oh God Gods came in and the other one's standing there with a Tire swinging it around to make sure to let him burn let him burn Jesus Barry's name was testicles swollen like apples but black okay he died two hours later in hospital anyway um that was regular account to deal with that I'd already strip things away so when I got a little apartment when I got out and my mother had arranged things for me when they were there when they'd leave rude messages on my answer machine when they'd be behind me everywhere I thought all right I remember this David it never ends if you want to survive go back to the way you were you know in in the super max Anything Can Happen anytime but I didn't want to live like that um I got a fresh passport and most elaborate means um I could spend a week explaining how that came into existence but I went to Thailand to pick up some money I had three days there it was just before Christmas I left at that time on purpose so that they maybe I thought maybe it's their weak point that they want to have families in their life just at Christmas I've parked my mum's car and and left the keys somewhere for her nobody knew were you not meant to leave the country no no no licenses oh I see we're just going to take a minute here to talk about a sponsor of this show which is manscaped we were sent a package to try out by manscaped but Conor one of our producers is already a fan of the brand I believe yeah absolutely I've been using manscape for a little while now and Ben as you know it's that time of year people start asking you what you want for Christmas and I would say that a great gift for a man especially one that might have everything is the manscape performance package 4.0 so what's in that so you get the lawnmower 4.0 electric trimmer you get some anti-chafe boxer shorts which I can vouch for as well as a couple of other grooming products that smell great fantastic well it sounds like a five-star review from uconnor absolutely so Connor you were talking about the performance package there's loads of other great gift ideas such as the hygiene bundle all available at manscape.com com and all gifts that men will genuinely love to receive this Christmas if you are a listener of this podcast you get 20 off and free shipping all you have to do is go to manscape.com and use the code minutes that's manscape.com m-i-n-u-t-e-s minutes um so why are we doing that the risk is it worth it I didn't want to play anymore right I wanted to uh see if I could have a something resembling like a a real life just to find some corner of the world plan was to to return to London and oh so you were leaving forever I'm leaving forever okay I see nobody knew it um I had a couple of hundred thousand in Thailand I thought um which I returned to pick up um now I suppose people say this Crooks always say this most unusual circumstances led to my arrest well they were but then again they always are aren't they or you wouldn't be telling the story or you wouldn't have been arrested but um the USDA was involved lots of people lots of players uh no real drugs are found uh they did an airport sweep and listed me up for like an ounce of something and a false passport or two the money I had just disappeared into pockets but those when I arrived there I felt so free I knew this identity was good I just like floating on air really I slipped out of my protective mode you know that when we stick to the plan and all right you don't want to leave I should have even stayed there for six months just get some sensible view of the world but I I didn't uh and as I went to the airport I could see they were all around me and I melted back into the crowd and disappeared again I thought well that serves me right for changing that attitude I'd had from back in super max and I just glaze over concentrate on the details which I needed to do because when I went to make a phone call later at the travel agency uh waiting it was so depressing being thrown into the Thai prison and I had some idea what they'd be like um people I'd known had been arrested there I knew this much it never won a case you never get out well you get out and what were they arresting you for was it the the uh the passport um what did the the the money wasn't I mean what did they leave 4 000 or something like that right and there are airports we put um I saw the guy walking in with it in a plastic bag you know whatever people throw on the floor before they go through security there was a bit of hash this usual bits of weed but what they really wanted was um this 25 grams of heroin because that would finish me off a policeman um Australian one said was that yours yeah yeah sure it was he said I didn't think so what would you be carrying around that for I mean if it was 10 kilos I might understand but but that was enough the death penalty and was it yours no no no so where where would that come from if you do they do a sweep every afternoon at five o'clock they get tons of it right I get you know nervous passengers go up and then they change their minds and they throw it in the toilet too and were they just did do you think they believed it was yours or do you think they were just going this is we need to give him this bit no no I think they were using it hoping to that would be good to hold and maybe they could get something else find out what I was up to who I was seeing because I had met um somebody who's whose uncle was a big player right so there was there was I think they were optimistic there might be more Camp come out of it but but there wasn't but what difference did it make and I wasn't really worried about um those drugs or the death penalty I wanted to die anyway frankly my first escape plans from there had this I imagine getting out to find the Privacy to kill myself right I wanted to go to the dusa Tony Hotel I knew Which floor and where to get onto the roof I'd taken photographs from there many years before um they were you simply couldn't get a moment's piece dormitories with 150 guys in them screaming all night um we can't even take a crap in peace in the Thai prison We're Not Afraid though of what killing myself well no I mean I don't know being brutalized by the guards or the inmates so well I knew enough about Thailand to to know that it was a little more comic than than bad there were very bad things happen they used to um they've beaten people a couple of people get beaten to death every day there but it's a very big prison we have to get that in proportion I only wish they wouldn't use the food trolley to take the dead bodies out because um you know they don't clean them up um and could you speak the language or were you quite it was a quite different communication uh not really uh and the few languages that uh pitch up in my travels I always found that even if you know them it's better to pretend you don't okay um because they'll talk about you behind your back you know certainly didn't live it on there was I I just couldn't see any point I'd gone to such elaborate precautions on this trip um it just shouldn't have happened and I even got away from the airport and still it happened oh all that confidence that I'll figure a way out I didn't care anymore I just had enough um and I remember seeing an old guy there if you had to go to court they put change on you and um you'd line up on the ground now this old guy I was looking at him because I don't know why a big soundtrack went past he had the presence of mind to push his head under that sand truck and oh it twisted it around popped like a watermelon being dropped on the ground oh my God guys very annoyed told the trustees to get that thing away out of sight was that nice thing called it I thought you Brave bastard you yeah you've got the guts to do that was it not quite a disturbing thing to witness no it was shocking because if you haven't seen it kind of thing up close and I happen to be looking um it was uh but that that's how I felt about it but I was saved In The End by a con man and people say a lot of bad things about economy they do yes they do and they uh you can't be trusted uh they are rottenness and they will cheat you just because they're the Scorpion that's in their nature uh but sometimes they're just what you need and this rather smooth um Bostonian American um who spoke Thai and really knew his way around and I you know I thought the somewhere in this huge prison there'd be an enclave of rich and corrupt foreigners with loads of money and there'd be luxuries it wasn't there was nobody of any importance in there you know a couple of big sacrifices had been made but um a couple of very rich policemen who were in the hospital in intensive care but other than that it was it was just um the people who reached the absolute bottom Drifters in Asia who did run after run and then got sacrificed to the machine they'd get about four jobs a big Syndicate there operating careers had run four times bang they'd shot them to the police they'd be gone oh God they will turn told the same story and it was Joe it was this guest house it was such and such identical and um and and at this point had you been sentenced to death had you received oh no no no I I was trying to avoid that yeah once I came to my senses because the the Boston con had so many wonderful schemes medical thing to get me bail and know some way of a escape with a go to court I get snatched from there I had villains come over and and scope out the court too because there was a way I thought of getting out of there from the lift that took you up to the the building uh snatched from the middle as you go down changed into a different set of clothes but they all got scared thing about um some of our most loved uh and fearless villains they're pretty good in the local manner but you throw them into a place like that where people carry machine guns and shoot at will just for the hell of it not so confident they like the upper edge of being snakes um so I couldn't convince anybody to really help and it was just as well um and two and a half years passed there in this prison it's a long time it was I sort of perked up a little bit pulled myself together started exercising um got a couple of ATM cards over hadn't my favorite god um he was in charge of the the building bought myself a room renovated um so you had you bought a room within the prison that was just for you rented that's rented right you know and is that an official thing that you're allowed to do right there are places in the world where it's official right but you had an influx of money that you could pay for special treats you could survive there on um less than 500 pounds a month and be king oh wow was this the 70s or the 80s now by the way we're into um 90 495 19 the 495 because what's reported about you is that during the 80s you were a multi-millionaire um is that accurate um now what do we call a multi-millionaires a young halfway with a million and a quarter on a glass coffee table and looks around the living room and thinks I've got to get a sofa one of these days um oh goes to the car auctions in the morning buys a big yank tank with a 427 Chevy engine in it um drives it around makes his own car parking spaces you know we're smashing the front in backing the other one pushing the other cars out of the way um oh stoned off my head most of the time uh if I wasn't stunned enough I'd take a few mandracks just to colludes icing on the cake um so I didn't take care of the money and the money didn't take care of me so I guess I'm like the reason I the reason I asked was because it must have been quite a stark change going from a very rich existence to basically somewhere where you basically couldn't pay for anything initially and it was a very poor existence but I guess from what you're saying there it's not like you felt like you were Rich at the time um I've made that contrast a few times when I had my first big arrest I couldn't as I was in a cold near lightless cell of blue stone and horse hair mattress about two inches thick and wrecking a piss I would think back to the night before when I had my important to tell in huge bed and Irish linen sheets and swimming pool out there and um and we had to kind of shake off the contrast but that rubber banding must must have been hard to take because it's you're going from basically the aspiration of almost everyone where you're talking about just buying cars outright and having a swimming pool to a piss stinking bed you know it must be it was you know it's odd thing about it was providing I could see a way out a work a way out I didn't so much mind oh okay um I really trained myself to expect my whatever world I built up and and this happened several times I've done it five times had a new identity New Life new surroundings even new people and dang they're gone and every time it got worse um and there was even Thailand was desperately important because even though it was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it um you know I was somebody that nobody minded killing um so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah there's nothing like the prospect of being executed by a machine gun which is the way they did it God is that what it would have been wow yeah you know oh they'd have three guards all with a bit of string on the trigger and they'd all pull it once so that none of them could be condemned in the Buddhist sense of sin oh they don't even actually right I see it caused the bullet that finished you off oh I see so you're in the Thai prison you've been sentenced to uh rather unpleasant death penalty um how did you start coming up with this famous plan for escaping um desperation it was the last plan that looked like it was going to work um there were probably about 20 plans considered um everything from being the prison held I've since found out it holds 22 000 people oh my God in 10 sub prisons uh there's a women's section there's a young offenders there's a special reminder a drug unit all of that um just a wild place it has everything it even had a prisoner-run shop where you could extract you could borrow money against your account and cash anyway um one of the plans involved being welded into a VW Combi van in the prisons Auto Workshop which would be picked up early Monday morning and I'd be driven out and that another one was um there were several courtroom ones and you couldn't just pay your way out no no it's just you could pay to have a mobile phone which in those days was a rare thing but they were around um you could pay for a bottle of clong uh whiskey you could pay I'm sure you could pay to get a a girl in your room if you could work out what a room was that a whole section full of ladyboys there and got a building full of them they used to open it up on Saturdays so um you could pay for anything but not to leave they couldn't cover that and they couldn't trust each other you would need 25 30 different guards paid off and and the gods of visitors I mean too many guides no that wouldn't work and they looked at it as a kind of betrayal only if I saw two escapes attempts there one group of uh straight kids and a Singaporean got out of their cell incredibly turned themselves into the sleeping God when they'd all lied to each other about what they didn't have you know the ropes and ways out because they're it was so outraged that they'd spoiled the guys jobs they beat them to death slowly tortured them over three months to death having put them in little code lockers the soy they call them drag them out in elephant chains every day and batter them senseless uh internal bleeding usually did it um look I've got a bowl of rice and a painting to poo in that was it um even the water was it was just too horrible so if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off even my Swedish friends Sten the Viking he backed out at the last minute I couldn't get people to go with me all the other plants had fallen to bits because they depended on other people I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars and I needed equipment for that and here's a really important point I guess as bad as this world is you've got to try to find good people if you ask somebody if you asked your friend yeah and and you're finished you'll manage to get a phone call and say friend it's been here um I need you to get um I don't know four hacksaw blades and cut them into the dowel rods of a of a poster and then paint it all up and send it in a huge package with this that cable ties gaffer tape but disguise all that how many people are going to do it turn around wouldn't believe it Ben called me what his neck yeah he's screwed but anyway he wouldn't believe but he wants me to do this that now people don't do it but Michael on the other hand our business partner wouldn't even let me explain he hadn't heard from me in 18 months he said David don't explain I'm sure we could get cut off tell me the important part now where do I have to be and what do I have to bring no that's a friend um and so I've always tried to do the same for the others that I've known like that um but um I did get the equipment together that I needed and everything um about escapes from a big prison is not like your hope it's going to be you know I turned it out walked around the streets and it had streets inside it um and timed it with my trusty Casio and it was so I knew roughly how long it would take to get me but the night's a different world I'm a prisoner I'm only used to noise during the day even the fan chopping around in the Cell at night it's so quiet everything I did squeaked and rattled and twisted I came across a panel that had to be a nail had to come out and that and they'll protest it and scream their wrench out of the way it took um uh seven or eight worlds uh sorry seven or eight walls to cross over I say worlds because they really were every building was a different thing and I got lost and I went past the terminal AIDS Ward that building hundreds of guys all die and I could smell it before I got there because this necrotic Rotting Flesh and I couldn't resist looking in I'm carrying this huge long ladder made out of bamboo poles and fake picture frames gaffer taped along the center [Music] um and I looked up and I saw all these little faces in the Moonlight wrapped in so much pain and despair they didn't have the energy to cry out to the guards if they'd been in any other prisoners they would have the trustees there were absolute scum of the earth had whistled little uniforms sell the drugs one day and the rest of the guys for it the next all of that um and it was only by um well I only got to the outer wall by Dawn and if somebody had been with me I wouldn't have made it either you wouldn't have no imagine I've taken all night to get there and at each point where this something was unexpected I've had to dream up something and I get a little basic toolkit and I sometimes I'd have to sacrifice part of my ladder to make a hook to pull down barbed wire and the technique for using the thing was awkward you had to prop it walk up drop down the other side so you're twisting over the walls like that manual is entirely barbed wire so I had to go underneath it covered in mud the the last one was really too high and there was a Mars bar Creek the the moat that ran around I did you know if I was with somebody else we'd be arguing wouldn't we oh Spa Creek oh it was full of turds bombing around it was caught out of the sewer yeah you did ask um illustrative okay we're just gonna take a quick break from the show to talk about a sponsor of this episode better help better help is an online Counseling Service which connects people to therapists and counselors I'm joined by one of our producers bryony is counseling something you've had experience with do you know what it's interesting because when I was growing up the same kind of challenges in life would happen but people wouldn't necessarily go to therapy or talk about therapy and I feel like since uh maybe my late teens early 20s people are starting to go to therapy and talking about it and I have definitely used it in my life and it's been massively beneficial same and do you because I think one of the things that people often mistake they think it's just for big things yeah but what's the other experience of that thing I think life always throws you know small challenges and large challenges and sometimes the big things need talking about but actually you know starting a new school or starting a new job can rile up that same level of anxiety and it's just really helpful to be able to talk to someone about it who is completely impartial not involved in your life and just kind of a safe space I guess to just say whatever you want to say you completely agree as the world's largest therapy service better help as much 3 million people with professionally licensed and vetted therapists available 100 online plus it's affordable just fill out a brief questionnaire to match with a therapist if things aren't clicking you can easily switch to a new therapist anytime it couldn't be simpler no waiting rooms no traffic no endless searching for the right therapist learn more and save 10 of your first month at betterhelp.com minutes with that's betterhelp help help.com minutes with um now there was one way of oh Beyond marsburg create this a foot and a half of land before this huge huge wall you've got to get a ladder that's too heavy to carry too imbalanced to do anything with but you've got a bit of rope how do you get it to the other side of Mars bar which has all got tangled barb wire in that so it'll catch get it in place and up against the wall when you've got no ground to to walk on now there is a way and uh I guess people have to listen to me describe it either to you or in my book okay fine but too long to tell here sure but um I could see the glow of dawn as I got to the top which had electricity running through it too just to make it the top of the wall dead yeah yeah wow but um my friend who um was in there a bit of a technician is to belong to the anarchist Society in in Britain how would you belong to a society that has rules when you anyway putting that aside he did tell me that it would only be 240 volts but to be careful um and just managed to get over that and because the original plan was to um oh there was an outer moat beyond that of 20 meters I had my clothes ready to go into a plastic bag swim the moat but just as well I didn't um because all it turned out all the guards houses were over the other side of that moat this would not be a place to go but I cleaned myself up threw some clothes on and I one of the jobs that I didn't do but I was supposed to be doing was working in the Umbrella Factory so I paid a local boy to do it um I've got a pop-up umbrella from there I thought you know you really get a perspective about I want to just simple discrimination but being an outsider a foreigner the way sometimes people feel picked upon you know we were called the white trash and we were in in Chains and everything so I knew I had to cover my face in the popular did it and I managed to get to a place where a passport was hidden and to the airport and still had a working ATM card to get me out of the country into Singapore so did you end up with the umbrella did you walk out the front gate yeah I did I had some long trousers on now in their prisoners are not allowed to wear them so I had some khaki pants I thought they might as I walked around the the narrow path to the front gate it's still mote but a little Bridge I thought another figure it's a guard arriving late and sneaking in and I did I felt like Ripley an alien uh looking at thinking lucky lucky this is where it all ends doesn't it and I'm thinking that every moment and looking up and there was just enough light rain to justify the umbrella yeah I would learn later that was actually the not a rain from the gods but the spittle of their laughter because they had worse things in mind for me later on I mean it's so it's you know how many people are you aware how many people had escaped from that prison up to that point was it some every year or was it very infrequent none um the ties sometimes ran away when they were doing the gardens in Chains outside but Escape From Within um I'd known of in 20 years people could recall two attempts no foreigners um and they didn't trust the foreigners that's why they put you on the third floor right quite rightly yes and and how long had it taken you from like the beginning of the uh I started cutting at um 11 45 I paid a lot to get a light switch in there normally the lights are on all the time um okay and I said to my favorite guard oh yeah Ponting or whatever his name was I can't sleep with that thing I'll put a light switch in um um now they didn't say it as corruption or bribe taking they thought I'm doing this nice guy a favor and I'll be lucky because of it that's a very big thing over there you know if I get caught I'm unlucky then so they can batter me to death I mean sure it's kind of self-justifies any action that a human being might take so he started cutting around eight for 11 45 11 45 okay it's quite close through one bar by two in the morning oh God stencia listen we'll go on the next note I looked around and Kevin the American from Hawaii I didn't even know this was happening uh Mirage the Indian I know he's going to talk the next morning he was kakaria LA pantaloni right in the cell never mind holding out and not saying anything he would have it would have been finished I never would have made it and I guess I could have seen the missing bars potentially but I learned later on I actually caught up with somebody who was in there Scottish guy um he was there for selling ecstasy to the Two well-off Sons and Daughters of wealthy policemen anyway um he remembers they the guards couldn't figure that I'd left oh um he said David they ran around the the prison calling out your name it was Daniel Westlake while I was there Daniel Daniel they okay that somebody drew their attention to the cut bar in there yeah my Scottish friend said they the gods wanted they thought that okay he's got out he's angry about something uh Daniel but he's not actually he'll never get out he couldn't get it they never found the the ladder down the front wall until much much later so for um uh uh only one of them said oh we better check the airport they sent a couple of guys down there um just a little bit late and you were gone by then only just and remember man you've got a passport from a Chinese connection that you barely know but kind of like the cut of his jib but are you gonna put your life on the line on that and at every moment you're handing it over you know like the look of it yeah they don't like the look of it they're typing it up and you're thinking they got onto the computer have they done that bit uh have they entered my arrival was this I knew it was freshly stolen or sold off was only a few weeks old uh I mean not new was had only gone missing a few weeks earlier so it was still good but very nerve-wracking and I didn't have a photo I had to use my old um uh radio operators license that had a photograph in it to get reproduced into this thing so it was a bit grainy um and even on the plane it was delay and takeoff oh God and a mumbling Captain oh sorry um we we have a thing with one passenger I just asked what thing exactly soon enough thwomp doors to manual oh but I've got an hour you know looking at this passport I don't like it get to Singapore but I make it through so you got to Singapore yeah but you did end up going back to prison not a Thai prison but a different prison he's suggesting uh I did something wrong well I'm hoping you're going to tell me um no well okay uh I didn't stay in Singapore long because um I sat there in the hotel room unable to digest food not prepared by my own cook sure I in the hotel room in Singapore I realized you could work out who had left that day if they'd flown my air by simply going to the airport and children you work it out yourselves at home you check everybody who's left separate the foreigners hmm go a step further let's keep the Canadian and American the British the Australian New Zealand all the English-speaking passport Society um just to you know reduce the numbers take those names check with the embassies any of these names belong to lost or stolen passports that have been reported yeah five of them because that's Bangkok you know not the only Mischief maker there but nonetheless um they probably knew I could be who was I Charles McClintock hmm sorry Charles I had to borrow your passport but it was an essential cause but you're not wanted anymore of course are you no but I did get an unwelcome knock at the door some years ago uh by the police who um would it be to go excuse me Westminster Court known for the terrorist cases extradition or parking fights wow I'd lift the car anywhere lately so it was going to be one of the other two and it was extradition to Thailand I fought that case for two years and um it was difficult um but managed to effectively win in the end so the ties have dropped that one and I can't be taken back there I'm not wanted anywhere um I can nobody can do what they want but um I I'm not I haven't got anything pending I'm not in business I'm a bit cautious I even got sent something in the the mail a few years ago and I thought it was some gift from some halfway ambitious wombat in in Pakistan sending me a bit of dope thinking oh yeah there's a gift you might like that connection made no I mean people had my address all around the world ever since Danny Dyer um it turned out to be more complicated than that but um very dangerous for me to walk into a courtroom so I don't even imagine you're me and knock at the door oh here's something for you Ben you don't like the look of it you refuse it you're in court no matter why did you refuse that was it your name no you was up The Jig was up proof ladies and gentlemen oh you accept it ah you accepted it proof ladies and gentlemen wife saying to me Jeanette and whom I met in Pakistan years ago and she was there to fish out her husband on a two-ton hash deal he didn't make it anyway um she said throw the thing away I'm thinking in court again ladies and gentlemen he threw the stuff away I can't win so very cautious about all that kind of stuff um fair enough but I take it you won't be going for a holiday to Thailand anytime soon I didn't think so okay so how many do you know off the top of your head of your life how many years of your life have you spent in prison ultimately I did add it up once I'm 66 now and I suppose I've spent um but 22 years the thing that occurs to me and I met you before and I thought the same thing is like you obviously extremely intelligent extremely resourceful it can't be well but well anyway but do you regret the choices you made in terms of do you see those 22 years in prison as something you had no control over it's just the way the dice rolled or do you see them as a mistake on your part um worse than a mistake mistake suggest you didn't know uh where you were going wrong I was taking those steps into uh of a precipice that I'd defied there is no gravity I said I said I will work out something before I hit the ground um when I was It was kind of in stages when I was young it was just arrogance and and showing off and later on when everything was destroyed it was kind of I'd scraped away all of my life and would just go on um then in the third stage it was escaping away from places rebuilding up and being weakened every time it was taken away again um and do I regret it yeah I'm sure I um no you know some people say oh yeah but David just smuggled everything on Earth you scumbag you you know um think of the lives you've destroyed and the people you've heard ah and I go to start to explain that it's not quite black and white uh I mean I've had drug habits myself that I've carelessly allowed um but I thought what's the point anything I say we just sound like self-justification so well don't listen to me then you know but things that have happened that have taught me a lot it's interesting you say that because one of a lot of the comments on our well on the first video we did a lot of the comments where people saying someone needs to make a movie about this guy but a lot of the other comments were people saying he's so charismatic and likable but he must be a really dangerous person to have been involved with all these worlds for so long and um we've interviewed a couple of drug smugglers and I would say they're the ones that I've met have been the ones that probably are more someone you'd see is traditionally quite an obviously dangerous person you come across as very Charming charismatic roguish where do you see yourself on that scale do you see yourself as someone who was dangerous or do you see yourself as someone who's just moved from area to area as it occurred um kind of like this a dangerous I suppose what most people see that and you know if somebody was a problem for me would I find the best option to have them killed or not but really there always was a kind of Vestige of that's a failure if you can't think of anything better than to have them killed then then then what are you doing there's a million clever ways of solving your problems and that besides which there's always going to be people you can't kill everybody um not only that who killed the killers that you've got to do the killing you know you know they always say that about the quiet ones and all of that but it was the people who bothered to put up a smoke screen um they're establishing a um later Alibi a courtroom personality but I met him he didn't seem bothered by all of that why would he have him killed and those are the ones that um seem to be more dangerous and if I was such a dangerous person like that I certainly been absolute fool to break from that mold and say otherwise wouldn't it very true David it's great to see you again thank you so much for coming in always a pleasure yeah and I've Got a Feeling we'll be seeing you again at some point as well it's possible it does may cross thank you I'll be like oh my God they're in my head they they know they know that was a song and so they put that song on the radio and it's all everything revolves around me or you know and this happened well sometimes happens today you know I'm I'm thinking of someone in my head someone under there like on the street	taken photographs from there many years before um they were you simply couldn't get a moment's piece dormitories with 150 guys in them screaming all night um we can't even take a crap in peace in the Thai prison We're Not Afraid though of what killing myself well no I mean I don't know being brutalized by the guards or the inmates so well I knew enough about Thailand to to know that it was a little more comic than than bad there were very bad things happen they used to um they've beaten people a couple of people get beaten to death every day there but it's a very big prison we have to get that in proportion I only wish they wouldn't use the food trolley to take the dead bodies out because um you know they don't clean them up um and could you speak the language or were you quite it was a quite different communication uh not really uh and the few languages that uh pitch up in my travels I always found that even if you know them it's better to pretend you don't okay um because they'll talk about you behind your back you know certainly didn't live it on there was I I just couldn't see any point I'd gone to such elaborate precautions on this trip um it just shouldn't have happened and I even got away from the airport and still it happened oh all that confidence that I'll figure	-5	8	-3	taken photographs from there many years before um they were you simply couldn't get a moment's peace dormitories with 150 guys in them screaming all night um we can't even take a crap in peace in the Thai prison We're Not Afraid though of what killing myself well no I mean I don't know being brutalized by the guards or the inmates so well I knew enough about Thailand to to know that it was a little more comic than than bad there were very bad things happen they used to um they've beaten people a couple of people get beaten to death every day there but it's a very big prison we have to get that in proportion	could you speak the language or were you quite it was a quite different communication uh not really uh and the few languages that uh pitch up in my travels I always found that even if you know them it's better to pretend you don't okay um because they'll talk about you behind your back you know certainly didn't live it on there was I I just couldn't see any point I'd gone to such elaborate precautions on this trip um it just shouldn't have happened and I even got away from the airport and still it happened oh all that confidence that I'll figure	-5,6,4	-3,5,6	-5	6	4	-3	5	6
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyZyHHexx7s	4,101	oyZyHHexx7s	2022-12-07 00:00:00	even though I was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off I couldn't get people to go with me I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars [Music] it's great to have you back David obviously we've met before but for anyone who doesn't know who you are for new listeners or new viewers could you give us a brief introduction to what you are famous for well I suppose uh most well known for uh having escaped to prison in Thailand in Bangkok uh the biggest one they have there clong Prim it uh wasn't something I did frivolously I was going to be executed within a couple of weeks so it seemed like a good time to leave okay now um we're going to get into that in a bit more detail but one thing that I remember about you from last time is you're the most incredible talker and we took away the inter the initial interview we've done with you and ended up having to make it into two long episodes because you have a lot of different very colorful uh experiences so do forgive me if I Jimmy us through oh no I can understand that I mean the only place I never talk is in the police station I always like some of my uh work colleagues took um what was it one slap to get them talking but five to shut them up oh okay so let's go right back to the beginning um you were born in the UK and then I believe you emigrated to Australia well um it was all a family thing yes I was born in basewater in London I spent the first few years of my life then uh there but my parents broke up divorced and I went with my mother to Australia with my older sister so I don't have any really very early memories of London apart from some old eight millimeter movie footage of me learning to walk in Hyde Park my dad was waving a five pound note in front of my face and I was making every effort to grab it I continued that behavior for many many years afterwards returned to Australia um finished some schooling um got really contrasting jobs I worked in an adult Agency for a while um but also before that I was got a job in a cinema now it was the and under literally an underground place but it was there that I got introduced to a bunch of crooks um some of the girls there had boyfriends that I used to run down with um strange boxes or bits of money or fur coats and then wink at me bolt out the back door pursued by often policemen undercover ones of course whom we'd misdirect somewhere but that Circle they were um safe crackers and they really didn't trust Outsiders and didn't much like the sound of me but because of I demonstrated a couple of things by being look everybody was really very anti-authority then I I don't mean hostile but for people now they they wouldn't have experienced that in the uh late 60s 70s we were so snotty and arrogant we really thought we were going to change the world and that um the laws were all nothing and the way to change them was to break them well that was the kind of vanity we had so um when I got to know the safe crackers uh better there was something really interesting I mean I didn't like the idea you know stealing things seemed a bit tacky but on the other hand they kind of all needed the money from the from their backgrounds and everything but that wasn't so much the the interest it was the technicalities of getting into these things okay um they used to drill through the top um having anchored it with the drill with clamps and and put a kind of little lens inside a cystoscope used in medicine and watch the the wheels turning around this is the old kind of old-fashioned Hollywood style it was yeah and um behind the safe were three discs and you had to line them up and they'd once they got in they'd take the door with them so that the opposition the safe makers wouldn't know how they'd got in and it was a a constant battle between the manufacturers and them because they've come across new safes which had Special Metals in it that was mixed like a a crunchy nut bar very hard metals very soft ones so the drill bit would slip on them snap and you got a sense that this was almost like a game where um they would try something then try to beat them and they were very loyal to each other um they they never spoke out of school as it were um when I got involved with them I'd only have to if I had trouble I don't have to make one phone call and people would appear out of nowhere and I thought yeah this this is kind of better than the treacherous boys school that I I grew up in and how old were you at this point um 19 years old 19. so were you thinking you were making a conscious decision to move into illegal activities or at that point in time and at that point in the world did it feel like more of a kind of a bit of roguish fun would you say I was drawn to it anyway because it was interesting and um I didn't really have a lot of fear I think sometimes what we do or don't do is depending on how scary it seems yeah agreed um I was born with a low resting heart rate as they say you know if it's below 70 you're a risk taker I don't know why that is when the safe crackers retired they put some of their money into growing little crops of weed and so on but profit margin is is only through importing because like the price difference is cheap in the source countries expensive where it sells so because they couldn't do it they were almost throwing it down like a challenge like we don't know anybody who can do this and I thought well I traveled a lot um I didn't think it was going to be impossible um I thought the odds were in my phone and I looked it up I went to the library and sort of researched it a bit and where were you thinking which country Well they um they were very keen to get some um hashish from India or Nepal or somewhere okay I could see um it's bulky and there's packing problems so um they funded me and off I sailed now the operation my first operation was so deplorably bad I'm barely 20 years old I my cunning plan which involved a big piece of exported Machinery which had weights in it so the weights would come out the cash would go in it would weigh the same being returned and it was a piece of Television equipment or something that went South immediately when I didn't realize that I would have to pay a huge deposit in duty to even bring it in as a demo machine so forget that I ended up in short meeting a guy in a money exchange section of a bank I was there because I ran out and I had to send asking for more from the boys and I met him and he wasn't involved in any of this but he soon became that just he managed to get me six kilos of hash I took the 1952 ancient Grundig radio from his parents house the Shelf there guttered the thing like a fish wrapped it up and he had to get cling film in those days think of this before you travel arriving with a suitcase full of cling film doesn't look good I suppose but uh wedged it in there and then just flew back to Sydney now you can imagine what happened well just before we get on to what happened you know one thing that strikes me is what year was would this have been this was uh 77 77 so it's amazing think that back then if someone was going to India for the first time now they could go on Google Maps they could research it or they could find out who they could find phone numbers contacts they could be put in contact with people before they've even set off whereas you must have at that age at that time been going in slightly blind you know touching down in a foreign country that you didn't know well no contacts was that not quite daunting well what was more um troubling with um how everything would fail and then I'd have to um you know come up with another plan what context somebody I knew um um there were no bank robber who joined the hare krishnas and fled to India right and I had his name and and the ashram in Delhi where where he was was supposed to have been uh I didn't really catch up with him on that trip but okay sure so so then you get back to Australia with your radio that is now full to the brim with and I get stopped you you did get stopped okay I could stop because uh I'm I'm on a British passport um and it's the only trip I've ever done and I'm that age I'd stop me oh fatherly type was at the Customs desk now the the systems were different in those days um it was Sydney too which is very and certainly was very relaxed back then right he opened the suitcase uh there was nothing in there except a pair of socks there's a towel wrapping up this massive radio which he lifted up so it was buckled at the sides little red packets poking out oh it smelled like a hedgehog for a patchouliers okay not much of a disguise um he let me go he uh put it back looked around to make sure that none of his workmates were watching him being so soft um and then turned to me and said you're going back there you're going to do this again [Music] all right you can take your we'll call it a radio shall we get out of here what he thought I realized later was that he didn't want the whole grammar of the day arresting me filling out papers and it would have been a a long time plus I guess being a dad he thought if I he's obviously an idiot you're right if I send him into Gladiator Academy or it wasn't really like that in those days but certainly contact center um the prison what am I doing um well I guess uh he was hopeful you know I whilst out of there must have smuggling me but I experienced then what um I got years later which was kind of a real Downer after you know having got nowhere with The Hare krishnas and and cultivated the shoeshine boys and had my money stolen at Amex uh by some Scallywags in Delhi all sorts of Little Adventures over there in India and nonetheless made it it's kind of like that's all there is to it I I didn't really want to give it to anyone um sort of felt like you didn't have a big moment of no a bit of money that came earlier that's handy right uh I paid back what I owed and settled up for for the next thing so but once that was started when you sorry I interrupted you go oh I was just going to say it to finish it even though they'd funded me the guys were very surprised to see me back but at all at all oh you made it oh because some of them say oh you'll just run away with it uh even if that's what he's doing who knows what he's doing you know and then I could see sitting around you can imagine there's like a table full of well like three guys and then a kind of Darkness shrouded over that room I thought uh it's not valuable enough to kill me you know what what is this mood why did you bring that well that's what you've been talking about yeah you could have loaded that with cane or smack or something you guys we say nothing but terrible things about a class or heavy drugs that don't want to know about it right and I could read then that wait a minute there we're all might be guys together and having fun getting into the safe and whatnot but there was a kind of different it was something a very strong lesson I'd have to be thoughtful about that um there could be times where things didn't work out not necessarily that my safety was at risk I didn't see it that way but I knew that there were Ruthless People right okay yeah so you got an insight into a mindset that had been a bit below the surface it was there I just chose not to see it but um I then went on to you know refine everything and Vary everything and then did you after that first time did you were you still working sort of for them or did you immediately well when you wake up on your own when things um I picked up and there was enough money around out of uh out of strategy rather than just being a nice guy I gave my partners a kind of thank you bonus from the next thing that I did but I did that all myself right so it was almost like a yeah separation and I wanted to go back to the my hippie friends anyway they were a little less it wasn't that they were scary but but that didn't last because they were maybe friends might be all right but they will certainly careless and stupid but from from that point onwards after that initial Journey was that you then into the world of smuggling I thought this won't last forever you only need one setback and that changes it I probably made quite a lot of money and I could have got out but and I should have gotta you know I have couriers a leak from one of the the couriers brought the police to me and here was the problem with it it was at first I scattered now I was married to my first wife then clearly Italian girl her dad had restaurants I grabbed her I had a secret drawer with extra passports in it some money ended up four plane Journeys later in um off the Bahamas had the skipper of a day rent yacht and take me out to an island and nobody had ever been on before it was empty sat there on a towel I thought hmm the level of surveillance I had means it's quite a big operation they're funded and I checked with a lawyer before the bigger the money they spent the more determined they'll be stay away or go back I mean I don't know why would anybody do this uh well I wasn't broke um I didn't have to there was no pressure on me the more I went through the problems the more attractive the whole thing is uh she didn't like it much well again do you think because it was a puzzle to be solved because um arrogance really we've gone from basically someone who was kind of mildly interested in making a group of people meeting a group of um safe hackers to someone who pulled off their first thing and then we've jumped to someone who has people working for them and and now is no longer taking the risk themselves now the police are on to you and you're on this desert island well small island and you're thinking about going back into it was this like a turning point in your life in terms of going you know because the other option I suppose was to go straight but were you just more it was that just not an option for you I'd gone to my lawyer Ralph he said look this is what I picked up because I my travel agent had tipped me to a couple of detectives that come in he traveled again while I was in on the phone okay uh actually they're all innocent really yeah you know and and gave him a long list of names um they wanted travel details for and a telephone number which I traced uh to um a private office building which had been rented by state and federal police they were so distrusting of their own they didn't want to even run this thing from um regular police headquarters my lawyer said well what you sure it's you said Ralph look at the list of names there's 30 there I'm 26 of them passports are a lot easier to get back then than there now so you had 26 aliases that you were traveling on yeah right okay um and I described where they were he said David they are funded well they're not bear this in mind but although I what they won't get me with anything they're funded you think they're going to walk away after a year and say oh sorry boss you spend a million dollars and uh nothing doing they don't work like that but this is how stubborn I was I thought because he said the only thing you can do is disappear for at least a couple of years and then you can come back if that's what you want and of course I had justifications for it I thought okay I'll I'll build up a bit more money and then I'll disappear but um it was only after things went terribly badly that I realized I shouldn't play like this anymore what it was they um because the challenge just kept coming so now so did you go back to Australia I went back to Australia and and when I retired within three months right but they weren't waiting for you to arrest you or no no they wanted they wanted something solid okay [Music] um I won't go into the long machinations of it all but um somebody we knew uh was getting things from a Thai Courier and he got arrested he sold us out to the police so that that The Courier would now come to us and I always have some solid evidence right he would bring things but we got away with that because that was another challenge but the police got tired of all this arrested me no drugs of course so it was a difficult case the worst kind of case is that where there's no solid evidence and in a way it's better to go to court where you've got a Smoking Gun and a dead body on the ground because at least you know where you are but where there's nothing tangible and it's conspiracies and this was a huge trial six months long what is that 119 Witnesses 6 000 pages of uh telephone intercept massive thing won't made it worse too and I think this was um would change things for me um the pressure was put on for confessions but it'd be silly to confess and you can't confess on somebody else's behalf can you that's not nice um lots of the family were arrested even my mother was taken and it went oh wow just to put pressure on uh did she know what you did oh she had an idea right okay I mean I used to have bin liners full of money I'd leave behind the fridge yeah you don't get that in the cinema do you not done not a very good day you know uh because they arrested so many people now when they arrested our wives and my business partner Michael his wife just had a baby it was we had to do a deal here I didn't want to but I was going to say I said to Michael look I know you don't like it but we'll play to it get the girls out of trouble we'll Escape that's a good challenge that way [Music] um but unfortunately um the intelligence section put an arsonist Informer in with the girls to get some information her fire was lit uh burnt down the women's prison and my wife and my business partner's wife was were killed uh that's awful and so the Informer that they put in there yeah why did they pick an arsonist for Daniel writer name was I don't know why I remember that after 40 years God so that's quite a big that was oh and and just uh to make things worse the story put about town to scare the careers into talking because they wouldn't speak was that we'd we were killing off all the witnesses and starting with our own family where does that come from um we ended up in a super max prison nightmarish electronic zoo with two inch glass and electronic doors and insane inmates held 48 death rate 27 people a year died in that little supermax going to court in Chains with a SWAT team taking it it was so so much Michael fell to pieces he was just a wreck he didn't make it uh he survived the jail but died when he got out the only way I could survive all of that was to strip away everything I you know I found myself in the supermax concrete everything's concrete the bed everything there's no everything's still just with the tape player from my lure listening to the the tapes the bug tapes the microphones in my house I could play back my life for the last six months clearly you're moving from room to room taking telephone calls she was crying about something I didn't know what I never know and David that's gone immerse yourself in the worst that they have you will not survive this otherwise trial sort of went not so good acquitted of most things but convicted enough 10 years difficult imprisonment but I the only way I could deal with it was to say did I want revenge that was more my fault I brought this about I got her in there I mean a family of a very kind to me about it considering I wouldn't be but it doesn't matter in Chains and super Mech strip it all away it is nothing everyone is a potential enemy everything it just nothing mattered win the day win the night I mean this is a place we had to fill in a book to get some toilet paper the showers were in front of them in a glass box um if you went on a visit they'd zip you up and lock you in a suit so you had no pockets there was after that and her death I felt like there was nothing that could affect me you're wrong about these things you know we're human but I got out and they were there they even visited me to say we'll be on you when you get out the police yeah we enjoyed the old days didn't you yeah I said pretending you know and just to make the point that they were there when I got out um I I'd done a whole lot of Woodwork in the prison in the last place I was at carving intricate things making these really great trick Chinese boxes with beeswax they intercepted the van that was taking it from the prison back to my house and smashed it all to pieces I put it in a box just to say don't think that we will never be here we can do what we want so I decided to leave the country I was um how old am I by then let's work it out yeah uh I started all this Mischief when I was about 18 got arrested at 22. 23 uh um 16 years 17 years either under surveillance or in bad prisons got out and I'm under surveillance again um so how old so you're number 37 about 37. so that's already you know that's a big chunk of Life there but you've lost quite a lot of it to prison or surveillance well at no point now were you like okay and I wasn't a normal person uh really when I got out because of the experience of prison I'd already stripped most of Myself Away to deal with the death of the Superman yeah and and watching people be burnt to death in the place which was frequent somebody had contact glue pulled all over him and then satellite oh God Gods came in and the other one's standing there with a Tire swinging it around to make sure to let him burn let him burn Jesus Barry's name was testicles swollen like apples but black okay he died two hours later in hospital anyway um that was regular account to deal with that I'd already strip things away so when I got a little apartment when I got out and my mother had arranged things for me when they were there when they'd leave rude messages on my answer machine when they'd be behind me everywhere I thought all right I remember this David it never ends if you want to survive go back to the way you were you know in in the super max Anything Can Happen anytime but I didn't want to live like that um I got a fresh passport and most elaborate means um I could spend a week explaining how that came into existence but I went to Thailand to pick up some money I had three days there it was just before Christmas I left at that time on purpose so that they maybe I thought maybe it's their weak point that they want to have families in their life just at Christmas I've parked my mum's car and and left the keys somewhere for her nobody knew were you not meant to leave the country no no no licenses oh I see we're just going to take a minute here to talk about a sponsor of this show which is manscaped we were sent a package to try out by manscaped but Conor one of our producers is already a fan of the brand I believe yeah absolutely I've been using manscape for a little while now and Ben as you know it's that time of year people start asking you what you want for Christmas and I would say that a great gift for a man especially one that might have everything is the manscape performance package 4.0 so what's in that so you get the lawnmower 4.0 electric trimmer you get some anti-chafe boxer shorts which I can vouch for as well as a couple of other grooming products that smell great fantastic well it sounds like a five-star review from uconnor absolutely so Connor you were talking about the performance package there's loads of other great gift ideas such as the hygiene bundle all available at manscape.com com and all gifts that men will genuinely love to receive this Christmas if you are a listener of this podcast you get 20 off and free shipping all you have to do is go to manscape.com and use the code minutes that's manscape.com m-i-n-u-t-e-s minutes um so why are we doing that the risk is it worth it I didn't want to play anymore right I wanted to uh see if I could have a something resembling like a a real life just to find some corner of the world plan was to to return to London and oh so you were leaving forever I'm leaving forever okay I see nobody knew it um I had a couple of hundred thousand in Thailand I thought um which I returned to pick up um now I suppose people say this Crooks always say this most unusual circumstances led to my arrest well they were but then again they always are aren't they or you wouldn't be telling the story or you wouldn't have been arrested but um the USDA was involved lots of people lots of players uh no real drugs are found uh they did an airport sweep and listed me up for like an ounce of something and a false passport or two the money I had just disappeared into pockets but those when I arrived there I felt so free I knew this identity was good I just like floating on air really I slipped out of my protective mode you know that when we stick to the plan and all right you don't want to leave I should have even stayed there for six months just get some sensible view of the world but I I didn't uh and as I went to the airport I could see they were all around me and I melted back into the crowd and disappeared again I thought well that serves me right for changing that attitude I'd had from back in super max and I just glaze over concentrate on the details which I needed to do because when I went to make a phone call later at the travel agency uh waiting it was so depressing being thrown into the Thai prison and I had some idea what they'd be like um people I'd known had been arrested there I knew this much it never won a case you never get out well you get out and what were they arresting you for was it the the uh the passport um what did the the the money wasn't I mean what did they leave 4 000 or something like that right and there are airports we put um I saw the guy walking in with it in a plastic bag you know whatever people throw on the floor before they go through security there was a bit of hash this usual bits of weed but what they really wanted was um this 25 grams of heroin because that would finish me off a policeman um Australian one said was that yours yeah yeah sure it was he said I didn't think so what would you be carrying around that for I mean if it was 10 kilos I might understand but but that was enough the death penalty and was it yours no no no so where where would that come from if you do they do a sweep every afternoon at five o'clock they get tons of it right I get you know nervous passengers go up and then they change their minds and they throw it in the toilet too and were they just did do you think they believed it was yours or do you think they were just going this is we need to give him this bit no no I think they were using it hoping to that would be good to hold and maybe they could get something else find out what I was up to who I was seeing because I had met um somebody who's whose uncle was a big player right so there was there was I think they were optimistic there might be more Camp come out of it but but there wasn't but what difference did it make and I wasn't really worried about um those drugs or the death penalty I wanted to die anyway frankly my first escape plans from there had this I imagine getting out to find the Privacy to kill myself right I wanted to go to the dusa Tony Hotel I knew Which floor and where to get onto the roof I'd taken photographs from there many years before um they were you simply couldn't get a moment's piece dormitories with 150 guys in them screaming all night um we can't even take a crap in peace in the Thai prison We're Not Afraid though of what killing myself well no I mean I don't know being brutalized by the guards or the inmates so well I knew enough about Thailand to to know that it was a little more comic than than bad there were very bad things happen they used to um they've beaten people a couple of people get beaten to death every day there but it's a very big prison we have to get that in proportion I only wish they wouldn't use the food trolley to take the dead bodies out because um you know they don't clean them up um and could you speak the language or were you quite it was a quite different communication uh not really uh and the few languages that uh pitch up in my travels I always found that even if you know them it's better to pretend you don't okay um because they'll talk about you behind your back you know certainly didn't live it on there was I I just couldn't see any point I'd gone to such elaborate precautions on this trip um it just shouldn't have happened and I even got away from the airport and still it happened oh all that confidence that I'll figure a way out I didn't care anymore I just had enough um and I remember seeing an old guy there if you had to go to court they put change on you and um you'd line up on the ground now this old guy I was looking at him because I don't know why a big soundtrack went past he had the presence of mind to push his head under that sand truck and oh it twisted it around popped like a watermelon being dropped on the ground oh my God guys very annoyed told the trustees to get that thing away out of sight was that nice thing called it I thought you Brave bastard you yeah you've got the guts to do that was it not quite a disturbing thing to witness no it was shocking because if you haven't seen it kind of thing up close and I happen to be looking um it was uh but that that's how I felt about it but I was saved In The End by a con man and people say a lot of bad things about economy they do yes they do and they uh you can't be trusted uh they are rottenness and they will cheat you just because they're the Scorpion that's in their nature uh but sometimes they're just what you need and this rather smooth um Bostonian American um who spoke Thai and really knew his way around and I you know I thought the somewhere in this huge prison there'd be an enclave of rich and corrupt foreigners with loads of money and there'd be luxuries it wasn't there was nobody of any importance in there you know a couple of big sacrifices had been made but um a couple of very rich policemen who were in the hospital in intensive care but other than that it was it was just um the people who reached the absolute bottom Drifters in Asia who did run after run and then got sacrificed to the machine they'd get about four jobs a big Syndicate there operating careers had run four times bang they'd shot them to the police they'd be gone oh God they will turn told the same story and it was Joe it was this guest house it was such and such identical and um and and at this point had you been sentenced to death had you received oh no no no I I was trying to avoid that yeah once I came to my senses because the the Boston con had so many wonderful schemes medical thing to get me bail and know some way of a escape with a go to court I get snatched from there I had villains come over and and scope out the court too because there was a way I thought of getting out of there from the lift that took you up to the the building uh snatched from the middle as you go down changed into a different set of clothes but they all got scared thing about um some of our most loved uh and fearless villains they're pretty good in the local manner but you throw them into a place like that where people carry machine guns and shoot at will just for the hell of it not so confident they like the upper edge of being snakes um so I couldn't convince anybody to really help and it was just as well um and two and a half years passed there in this prison it's a long time it was I sort of perked up a little bit pulled myself together started exercising um got a couple of ATM cards over hadn't my favorite god um he was in charge of the the building bought myself a room renovated um so you had you bought a room within the prison that was just for you rented that's rented right you know and is that an official thing that you're allowed to do right there are places in the world where it's official right but you had an influx of money that you could pay for special treats you could survive there on um less than 500 pounds a month and be king oh wow was this the 70s or the 80s now by the way we're into um 90 495 19 the 495 because what's reported about you is that during the 80s you were a multi-millionaire um is that accurate um now what do we call a multi-millionaires a young halfway with a million and a quarter on a glass coffee table and looks around the living room and thinks I've got to get a sofa one of these days um oh goes to the car auctions in the morning buys a big yank tank with a 427 Chevy engine in it um drives it around makes his own car parking spaces you know we're smashing the front in backing the other one pushing the other cars out of the way um oh stoned off my head most of the time uh if I wasn't stunned enough I'd take a few mandracks just to colludes icing on the cake um so I didn't take care of the money and the money didn't take care of me so I guess I'm like the reason I the reason I asked was because it must have been quite a stark change going from a very rich existence to basically somewhere where you basically couldn't pay for anything initially and it was a very poor existence but I guess from what you're saying there it's not like you felt like you were Rich at the time um I've made that contrast a few times when I had my first big arrest I couldn't as I was in a cold near lightless cell of blue stone and horse hair mattress about two inches thick and wrecking a piss I would think back to the night before when I had my important to tell in huge bed and Irish linen sheets and swimming pool out there and um and we had to kind of shake off the contrast but that rubber banding must must have been hard to take because it's you're going from basically the aspiration of almost everyone where you're talking about just buying cars outright and having a swimming pool to a piss stinking bed you know it must be it was you know it's odd thing about it was providing I could see a way out a work a way out I didn't so much mind oh okay um I really trained myself to expect my whatever world I built up and and this happened several times I've done it five times had a new identity New Life new surroundings even new people and dang they're gone and every time it got worse um and there was even Thailand was desperately important because even though it was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it um you know I was somebody that nobody minded killing um so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah there's nothing like the prospect of being executed by a machine gun which is the way they did it God is that what it would have been wow yeah you know oh they'd have three guards all with a bit of string on the trigger and they'd all pull it once so that none of them could be condemned in the Buddhist sense of sin oh they don't even actually right I see it caused the bullet that finished you off oh I see so you're in the Thai prison you've been sentenced to uh rather unpleasant death penalty um how did you start coming up with this famous plan for escaping um desperation it was the last plan that looked like it was going to work um there were probably about 20 plans considered um everything from being the prison held I've since found out it holds 22 000 people oh my God in 10 sub prisons uh there's a women's section there's a young offenders there's a special reminder a drug unit all of that um just a wild place it has everything it even had a prisoner-run shop where you could extract you could borrow money against your account and cash anyway um one of the plans involved being welded into a VW Combi van in the prisons Auto Workshop which would be picked up early Monday morning and I'd be driven out and that another one was um there were several courtroom ones and you couldn't just pay your way out no no it's just you could pay to have a mobile phone which in those days was a rare thing but they were around um you could pay for a bottle of clong uh whiskey you could pay I'm sure you could pay to get a a girl in your room if you could work out what a room was that a whole section full of ladyboys there and got a building full of them they used to open it up on Saturdays so um you could pay for anything but not to leave they couldn't cover that and they couldn't trust each other you would need 25 30 different guards paid off and and the gods of visitors I mean too many guides no that wouldn't work and they looked at it as a kind of betrayal only if I saw two escapes attempts there one group of uh straight kids and a Singaporean got out of their cell incredibly turned themselves into the sleeping God when they'd all lied to each other about what they didn't have you know the ropes and ways out because they're it was so outraged that they'd spoiled the guys jobs they beat them to death slowly tortured them over three months to death having put them in little code lockers the soy they call them drag them out in elephant chains every day and batter them senseless uh internal bleeding usually did it um look I've got a bowl of rice and a painting to poo in that was it um even the water was it was just too horrible so if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off even my Swedish friends Sten the Viking he backed out at the last minute I couldn't get people to go with me all the other plants had fallen to bits because they depended on other people I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars and I needed equipment for that and here's a really important point I guess as bad as this world is you've got to try to find good people if you ask somebody if you asked your friend yeah and and you're finished you'll manage to get a phone call and say friend it's been here um I need you to get um I don't know four hacksaw blades and cut them into the dowel rods of a of a poster and then paint it all up and send it in a huge package with this that cable ties gaffer tape but disguise all that how many people are going to do it turn around wouldn't believe it Ben called me what his neck yeah he's screwed but anyway he wouldn't believe but he wants me to do this that now people don't do it but Michael on the other hand our business partner wouldn't even let me explain he hadn't heard from me in 18 months he said David don't explain I'm sure we could get cut off tell me the important part now where do I have to be and what do I have to bring no that's a friend um and so I've always tried to do the same for the others that I've known like that um but um I did get the equipment together that I needed and everything um about escapes from a big prison is not like your hope it's going to be you know I turned it out walked around the streets and it had streets inside it um and timed it with my trusty Casio and it was so I knew roughly how long it would take to get me but the night's a different world I'm a prisoner I'm only used to noise during the day even the fan chopping around in the Cell at night it's so quiet everything I did squeaked and rattled and twisted I came across a panel that had to be a nail had to come out and that and they'll protest it and scream their wrench out of the way it took um uh seven or eight worlds uh sorry seven or eight walls to cross over I say worlds because they really were every building was a different thing and I got lost and I went past the terminal AIDS Ward that building hundreds of guys all die and I could smell it before I got there because this necrotic Rotting Flesh and I couldn't resist looking in I'm carrying this huge long ladder made out of bamboo poles and fake picture frames gaffer taped along the center [Music] um and I looked up and I saw all these little faces in the Moonlight wrapped in so much pain and despair they didn't have the energy to cry out to the guards if they'd been in any other prisoners they would have the trustees there were absolute scum of the earth had whistled little uniforms sell the drugs one day and the rest of the guys for it the next all of that um and it was only by um well I only got to the outer wall by Dawn and if somebody had been with me I wouldn't have made it either you wouldn't have no imagine I've taken all night to get there and at each point where this something was unexpected I've had to dream up something and I get a little basic toolkit and I sometimes I'd have to sacrifice part of my ladder to make a hook to pull down barbed wire and the technique for using the thing was awkward you had to prop it walk up drop down the other side so you're twisting over the walls like that manual is entirely barbed wire so I had to go underneath it covered in mud the the last one was really too high and there was a Mars bar Creek the the moat that ran around I did you know if I was with somebody else we'd be arguing wouldn't we oh Spa Creek oh it was full of turds bombing around it was caught out of the sewer yeah you did ask um illustrative okay we're just gonna take a quick break from the show to talk about a sponsor of this episode better help better help is an online Counseling Service which connects people to therapists and counselors I'm joined by one of our producers bryony is counseling something you've had experience with do you know what it's interesting because when I was growing up the same kind of challenges in life would happen but people wouldn't necessarily go to therapy or talk about therapy and I feel like since uh maybe my late teens early 20s people are starting to go to therapy and talking about it and I have definitely used it in my life and it's been massively beneficial same and do you because I think one of the things that people often mistake they think it's just for big things yeah but what's the other experience of that thing I think life always throws you know small challenges and large challenges and sometimes the big things need talking about but actually you know starting a new school or starting a new job can rile up that same level of anxiety and it's just really helpful to be able to talk to someone about it who is completely impartial not involved in your life and just kind of a safe space I guess to just say whatever you want to say you completely agree as the world's largest therapy service better help as much 3 million people with professionally licensed and vetted therapists available 100 online plus it's affordable just fill out a brief questionnaire to match with a therapist if things aren't clicking you can easily switch to a new therapist anytime it couldn't be simpler no waiting rooms no traffic no endless searching for the right therapist learn more and save 10 of your first month at betterhelp.com minutes with that's betterhelp help help.com minutes with um now there was one way of oh Beyond marsburg create this a foot and a half of land before this huge huge wall you've got to get a ladder that's too heavy to carry too imbalanced to do anything with but you've got a bit of rope how do you get it to the other side of Mars bar which has all got tangled barb wire in that so it'll catch get it in place and up against the wall when you've got no ground to to walk on now there is a way and uh I guess people have to listen to me describe it either to you or in my book okay fine but too long to tell here sure but um I could see the glow of dawn as I got to the top which had electricity running through it too just to make it the top of the wall dead yeah yeah wow but um my friend who um was in there a bit of a technician is to belong to the anarchist Society in in Britain how would you belong to a society that has rules when you anyway putting that aside he did tell me that it would only be 240 volts but to be careful um and just managed to get over that and because the original plan was to um oh there was an outer moat beyond that of 20 meters I had my clothes ready to go into a plastic bag swim the moat but just as well I didn't um because all it turned out all the guards houses were over the other side of that moat this would not be a place to go but I cleaned myself up threw some clothes on and I one of the jobs that I didn't do but I was supposed to be doing was working in the Umbrella Factory so I paid a local boy to do it um I've got a pop-up umbrella from there I thought you know you really get a perspective about I want to just simple discrimination but being an outsider a foreigner the way sometimes people feel picked upon you know we were called the white trash and we were in in Chains and everything so I knew I had to cover my face in the popular did it and I managed to get to a place where a passport was hidden and to the airport and still had a working ATM card to get me out of the country into Singapore so did you end up with the umbrella did you walk out the front gate yeah I did I had some long trousers on now in their prisoners are not allowed to wear them so I had some khaki pants I thought they might as I walked around the the narrow path to the front gate it's still mote but a little Bridge I thought another figure it's a guard arriving late and sneaking in and I did I felt like Ripley an alien uh looking at thinking lucky lucky this is where it all ends doesn't it and I'm thinking that every moment and looking up and there was just enough light rain to justify the umbrella yeah I would learn later that was actually the not a rain from the gods but the spittle of their laughter because they had worse things in mind for me later on I mean it's so it's you know how many people are you aware how many people had escaped from that prison up to that point was it some every year or was it very infrequent none um the ties sometimes ran away when they were doing the gardens in Chains outside but Escape From Within um I'd known of in 20 years people could recall two attempts no foreigners um and they didn't trust the foreigners that's why they put you on the third floor right quite rightly yes and and how long had it taken you from like the beginning of the uh I started cutting at um 11 45 I paid a lot to get a light switch in there normally the lights are on all the time um okay and I said to my favorite guard oh yeah Ponting or whatever his name was I can't sleep with that thing I'll put a light switch in um um now they didn't say it as corruption or bribe taking they thought I'm doing this nice guy a favor and I'll be lucky because of it that's a very big thing over there you know if I get caught I'm unlucky then so they can batter me to death I mean sure it's kind of self-justifies any action that a human being might take so he started cutting around eight for 11 45 11 45 okay it's quite close through one bar by two in the morning oh God stencia listen we'll go on the next note I looked around and Kevin the American from Hawaii I didn't even know this was happening uh Mirage the Indian I know he's going to talk the next morning he was kakaria LA pantaloni right in the cell never mind holding out and not saying anything he would have it would have been finished I never would have made it and I guess I could have seen the missing bars potentially but I learned later on I actually caught up with somebody who was in there Scottish guy um he was there for selling ecstasy to the Two well-off Sons and Daughters of wealthy policemen anyway um he remembers they the guards couldn't figure that I'd left oh um he said David they ran around the the prison calling out your name it was Daniel Westlake while I was there Daniel Daniel they okay that somebody drew their attention to the cut bar in there yeah my Scottish friend said they the gods wanted they thought that okay he's got out he's angry about something uh Daniel but he's not actually he'll never get out he couldn't get it they never found the the ladder down the front wall until much much later so for um uh uh only one of them said oh we better check the airport they sent a couple of guys down there um just a little bit late and you were gone by then only just and remember man you've got a passport from a Chinese connection that you barely know but kind of like the cut of his jib but are you gonna put your life on the line on that and at every moment you're handing it over you know like the look of it yeah they don't like the look of it they're typing it up and you're thinking they got onto the computer have they done that bit uh have they entered my arrival was this I knew it was freshly stolen or sold off was only a few weeks old uh I mean not new was had only gone missing a few weeks earlier so it was still good but very nerve-wracking and I didn't have a photo I had to use my old um uh radio operators license that had a photograph in it to get reproduced into this thing so it was a bit grainy um and even on the plane it was delay and takeoff oh God and a mumbling Captain oh sorry um we we have a thing with one passenger I just asked what thing exactly soon enough thwomp doors to manual oh but I've got an hour you know looking at this passport I don't like it get to Singapore but I make it through so you got to Singapore yeah but you did end up going back to prison not a Thai prison but a different prison he's suggesting uh I did something wrong well I'm hoping you're going to tell me um no well okay uh I didn't stay in Singapore long because um I sat there in the hotel room unable to digest food not prepared by my own cook sure I in the hotel room in Singapore I realized you could work out who had left that day if they'd flown my air by simply going to the airport and children you work it out yourselves at home you check everybody who's left separate the foreigners hmm go a step further let's keep the Canadian and American the British the Australian New Zealand all the English-speaking passport Society um just to you know reduce the numbers take those names check with the embassies any of these names belong to lost or stolen passports that have been reported yeah five of them because that's Bangkok you know not the only Mischief maker there but nonetheless um they probably knew I could be who was I Charles McClintock hmm sorry Charles I had to borrow your passport but it was an essential cause but you're not wanted anymore of course are you no but I did get an unwelcome knock at the door some years ago uh by the police who um would it be to go excuse me Westminster Court known for the terrorist cases extradition or parking fights wow I'd lift the car anywhere lately so it was going to be one of the other two and it was extradition to Thailand I fought that case for two years and um it was difficult um but managed to effectively win in the end so the ties have dropped that one and I can't be taken back there I'm not wanted anywhere um I can nobody can do what they want but um I I'm not I haven't got anything pending I'm not in business I'm a bit cautious I even got sent something in the the mail a few years ago and I thought it was some gift from some halfway ambitious wombat in in Pakistan sending me a bit of dope thinking oh yeah there's a gift you might like that connection made no I mean people had my address all around the world ever since Danny Dyer um it turned out to be more complicated than that but um very dangerous for me to walk into a courtroom so I don't even imagine you're me and knock at the door oh here's something for you Ben you don't like the look of it you refuse it you're in court no matter why did you refuse that was it your name no you was up The Jig was up proof ladies and gentlemen oh you accept it ah you accepted it proof ladies and gentlemen wife saying to me Jeanette and whom I met in Pakistan years ago and she was there to fish out her husband on a two-ton hash deal he didn't make it anyway um she said throw the thing away I'm thinking in court again ladies and gentlemen he threw the stuff away I can't win so very cautious about all that kind of stuff um fair enough but I take it you won't be going for a holiday to Thailand anytime soon I didn't think so okay so how many do you know off the top of your head of your life how many years of your life have you spent in prison ultimately I did add it up once I'm 66 now and I suppose I've spent um but 22 years the thing that occurs to me and I met you before and I thought the same thing is like you obviously extremely intelligent extremely resourceful it can't be well but well anyway but do you regret the choices you made in terms of do you see those 22 years in prison as something you had no control over it's just the way the dice rolled or do you see them as a mistake on your part um worse than a mistake mistake suggest you didn't know uh where you were going wrong I was taking those steps into uh of a precipice that I'd defied there is no gravity I said I said I will work out something before I hit the ground um when I was It was kind of in stages when I was young it was just arrogance and and showing off and later on when everything was destroyed it was kind of I'd scraped away all of my life and would just go on um then in the third stage it was escaping away from places rebuilding up and being weakened every time it was taken away again um and do I regret it yeah I'm sure I um no you know some people say oh yeah but David just smuggled everything on Earth you scumbag you you know um think of the lives you've destroyed and the people you've heard ah and I go to start to explain that it's not quite black and white uh I mean I've had drug habits myself that I've carelessly allowed um but I thought what's the point anything I say we just sound like self-justification so well don't listen to me then you know but things that have happened that have taught me a lot it's interesting you say that because one of a lot of the comments on our well on the first video we did a lot of the comments where people saying someone needs to make a movie about this guy but a lot of the other comments were people saying he's so charismatic and likable but he must be a really dangerous person to have been involved with all these worlds for so long and um we've interviewed a couple of drug smugglers and I would say they're the ones that I've met have been the ones that probably are more someone you'd see is traditionally quite an obviously dangerous person you come across as very Charming charismatic roguish where do you see yourself on that scale do you see yourself as someone who was dangerous or do you see yourself as someone who's just moved from area to area as it occurred um kind of like this a dangerous I suppose what most people see that and you know if somebody was a problem for me would I find the best option to have them killed or not but really there always was a kind of Vestige of that's a failure if you can't think of anything better than to have them killed then then then what are you doing there's a million clever ways of solving your problems and that besides which there's always going to be people you can't kill everybody um not only that who killed the killers that you've got to do the killing you know you know they always say that about the quiet ones and all of that but it was the people who bothered to put up a smoke screen um they're establishing a um later Alibi a courtroom personality but I met him he didn't seem bothered by all of that why would he have him killed and those are the ones that um seem to be more dangerous and if I was such a dangerous person like that I certainly been absolute fool to break from that mold and say otherwise wouldn't it very true David it's great to see you again thank you so much for coming in always a pleasure yeah and I've Got a Feeling we'll be seeing you again at some point as well it's possible it does may cross thank you I'll be like oh my God they're in my head they they know they know that was a song and so they put that song on the radio and it's all everything revolves around me or you know and this happened well sometimes happens today you know I'm I'm thinking of someone in my head someone under there like on the street	somewhere in this huge prison there'd be an enclave of rich and corrupt foreigners with loads of money and there'd be luxuries it wasn't there was nobody of any importance in there you know a couple of big sacrifices had been made but um a couple of very rich policemen who were in the hospital in intensive care but other than that it was it was just um the people who reached the absolute bottom Drifters in Asia who did run after run and then got sacrificed to the machine they'd get about four jobs a big Syndicate there operating careers had run four times bang they'd shot them to the police they'd be gone oh God they will turn told the same story and it was Joe it was this guest house it was such and such identical and um and and at this point had you been sentenced to death had you received oh no no no I I was trying to avoid that yeah once I came to my senses because the the Boston con had so many wonderful schemes medical thing to get me bail and know some way of a escape with a go to court I get snatched from there I had villains come over and and scope out the court too because there was a way I thought of getting out of there from the lift that took you up to the the building uh snatched from the middle as you go down	-5	8	-5	somewhere in this huge prison there'd be an enclave of rich and corrupt foreigners with loads of money and there'd be luxuries it wasn't there was nobody of any importance in there you know a couple of big sacrifices had been made but um a couple of very rich policemen who were in the hospital in intensive care but other than that it was it was just um the people who reached the absolute bottom Drifters in Asia who did run after run and then got sacrificed to the machine they'd get about four jobs a big Syndicate there operating careers had run four times bang they'd shot them to the police they'd be gone oh God they will turn told the same story and it was Joe it was this guest house it was such and such identical and um and and at this point had you been sentenced to death had you received oh no no no I I was trying to avoid that yeah once I came to my senses because the the Boston con had so many wonderful schemes medical thing to get me bail and know some way of a escape with a go to court I get snatched from there I had villains come over and and scope out the court too because there was a way I thought of getting out of there from the lift that took you up to the the building uh snatched from the middle as you go down	had you been sentenced to death had you received	3,-3,6	-5,2,3	3	-3	6	-5	2	3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyZyHHexx7s	4,101	oyZyHHexx7s	2022-12-07 00:00:00	even though I was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off I couldn't get people to go with me I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars [Music] it's great to have you back David obviously we've met before but for anyone who doesn't know who you are for new listeners or new viewers could you give us a brief introduction to what you are famous for well I suppose uh most well known for uh having escaped to prison in Thailand in Bangkok uh the biggest one they have there clong Prim it uh wasn't something I did frivolously I was going to be executed within a couple of weeks so it seemed like a good time to leave okay now um we're going to get into that in a bit more detail but one thing that I remember about you from last time is you're the most incredible talker and we took away the inter the initial interview we've done with you and ended up having to make it into two long episodes because you have a lot of different very colorful uh experiences so do forgive me if I Jimmy us through oh no I can understand that I mean the only place I never talk is in the police station I always like some of my uh work colleagues took um what was it one slap to get them talking but five to shut them up oh okay so let's go right back to the beginning um you were born in the UK and then I believe you emigrated to Australia well um it was all a family thing yes I was born in basewater in London I spent the first few years of my life then uh there but my parents broke up divorced and I went with my mother to Australia with my older sister so I don't have any really very early memories of London apart from some old eight millimeter movie footage of me learning to walk in Hyde Park my dad was waving a five pound note in front of my face and I was making every effort to grab it I continued that behavior for many many years afterwards returned to Australia um finished some schooling um got really contrasting jobs I worked in an adult Agency for a while um but also before that I was got a job in a cinema now it was the and under literally an underground place but it was there that I got introduced to a bunch of crooks um some of the girls there had boyfriends that I used to run down with um strange boxes or bits of money or fur coats and then wink at me bolt out the back door pursued by often policemen undercover ones of course whom we'd misdirect somewhere but that Circle they were um safe crackers and they really didn't trust Outsiders and didn't much like the sound of me but because of I demonstrated a couple of things by being look everybody was really very anti-authority then I I don't mean hostile but for people now they they wouldn't have experienced that in the uh late 60s 70s we were so snotty and arrogant we really thought we were going to change the world and that um the laws were all nothing and the way to change them was to break them well that was the kind of vanity we had so um when I got to know the safe crackers uh better there was something really interesting I mean I didn't like the idea you know stealing things seemed a bit tacky but on the other hand they kind of all needed the money from the from their backgrounds and everything but that wasn't so much the the interest it was the technicalities of getting into these things okay um they used to drill through the top um having anchored it with the drill with clamps and and put a kind of little lens inside a cystoscope used in medicine and watch the the wheels turning around this is the old kind of old-fashioned Hollywood style it was yeah and um behind the safe were three discs and you had to line them up and they'd once they got in they'd take the door with them so that the opposition the safe makers wouldn't know how they'd got in and it was a a constant battle between the manufacturers and them because they've come across new safes which had Special Metals in it that was mixed like a a crunchy nut bar very hard metals very soft ones so the drill bit would slip on them snap and you got a sense that this was almost like a game where um they would try something then try to beat them and they were very loyal to each other um they they never spoke out of school as it were um when I got involved with them I'd only have to if I had trouble I don't have to make one phone call and people would appear out of nowhere and I thought yeah this this is kind of better than the treacherous boys school that I I grew up in and how old were you at this point um 19 years old 19. so were you thinking you were making a conscious decision to move into illegal activities or at that point in time and at that point in the world did it feel like more of a kind of a bit of roguish fun would you say I was drawn to it anyway because it was interesting and um I didn't really have a lot of fear I think sometimes what we do or don't do is depending on how scary it seems yeah agreed um I was born with a low resting heart rate as they say you know if it's below 70 you're a risk taker I don't know why that is when the safe crackers retired they put some of their money into growing little crops of weed and so on but profit margin is is only through importing because like the price difference is cheap in the source countries expensive where it sells so because they couldn't do it they were almost throwing it down like a challenge like we don't know anybody who can do this and I thought well I traveled a lot um I didn't think it was going to be impossible um I thought the odds were in my phone and I looked it up I went to the library and sort of researched it a bit and where were you thinking which country Well they um they were very keen to get some um hashish from India or Nepal or somewhere okay I could see um it's bulky and there's packing problems so um they funded me and off I sailed now the operation my first operation was so deplorably bad I'm barely 20 years old I my cunning plan which involved a big piece of exported Machinery which had weights in it so the weights would come out the cash would go in it would weigh the same being returned and it was a piece of Television equipment or something that went South immediately when I didn't realize that I would have to pay a huge deposit in duty to even bring it in as a demo machine so forget that I ended up in short meeting a guy in a money exchange section of a bank I was there because I ran out and I had to send asking for more from the boys and I met him and he wasn't involved in any of this but he soon became that just he managed to get me six kilos of hash I took the 1952 ancient Grundig radio from his parents house the Shelf there guttered the thing like a fish wrapped it up and he had to get cling film in those days think of this before you travel arriving with a suitcase full of cling film doesn't look good I suppose but uh wedged it in there and then just flew back to Sydney now you can imagine what happened well just before we get on to what happened you know one thing that strikes me is what year was would this have been this was uh 77 77 so it's amazing think that back then if someone was going to India for the first time now they could go on Google Maps they could research it or they could find out who they could find phone numbers contacts they could be put in contact with people before they've even set off whereas you must have at that age at that time been going in slightly blind you know touching down in a foreign country that you didn't know well no contacts was that not quite daunting well what was more um troubling with um how everything would fail and then I'd have to um you know come up with another plan what context somebody I knew um um there were no bank robber who joined the hare krishnas and fled to India right and I had his name and and the ashram in Delhi where where he was was supposed to have been uh I didn't really catch up with him on that trip but okay sure so so then you get back to Australia with your radio that is now full to the brim with and I get stopped you you did get stopped okay I could stop because uh I'm I'm on a British passport um and it's the only trip I've ever done and I'm that age I'd stop me oh fatherly type was at the Customs desk now the the systems were different in those days um it was Sydney too which is very and certainly was very relaxed back then right he opened the suitcase uh there was nothing in there except a pair of socks there's a towel wrapping up this massive radio which he lifted up so it was buckled at the sides little red packets poking out oh it smelled like a hedgehog for a patchouliers okay not much of a disguise um he let me go he uh put it back looked around to make sure that none of his workmates were watching him being so soft um and then turned to me and said you're going back there you're going to do this again [Music] all right you can take your we'll call it a radio shall we get out of here what he thought I realized later was that he didn't want the whole grammar of the day arresting me filling out papers and it would have been a a long time plus I guess being a dad he thought if I he's obviously an idiot you're right if I send him into Gladiator Academy or it wasn't really like that in those days but certainly contact center um the prison what am I doing um well I guess uh he was hopeful you know I whilst out of there must have smuggling me but I experienced then what um I got years later which was kind of a real Downer after you know having got nowhere with The Hare krishnas and and cultivated the shoeshine boys and had my money stolen at Amex uh by some Scallywags in Delhi all sorts of Little Adventures over there in India and nonetheless made it it's kind of like that's all there is to it I I didn't really want to give it to anyone um sort of felt like you didn't have a big moment of no a bit of money that came earlier that's handy right uh I paid back what I owed and settled up for for the next thing so but once that was started when you sorry I interrupted you go oh I was just going to say it to finish it even though they'd funded me the guys were very surprised to see me back but at all at all oh you made it oh because some of them say oh you'll just run away with it uh even if that's what he's doing who knows what he's doing you know and then I could see sitting around you can imagine there's like a table full of well like three guys and then a kind of Darkness shrouded over that room I thought uh it's not valuable enough to kill me you know what what is this mood why did you bring that well that's what you've been talking about yeah you could have loaded that with cane or smack or something you guys we say nothing but terrible things about a class or heavy drugs that don't want to know about it right and I could read then that wait a minute there we're all might be guys together and having fun getting into the safe and whatnot but there was a kind of different it was something a very strong lesson I'd have to be thoughtful about that um there could be times where things didn't work out not necessarily that my safety was at risk I didn't see it that way but I knew that there were Ruthless People right okay yeah so you got an insight into a mindset that had been a bit below the surface it was there I just chose not to see it but um I then went on to you know refine everything and Vary everything and then did you after that first time did you were you still working sort of for them or did you immediately well when you wake up on your own when things um I picked up and there was enough money around out of uh out of strategy rather than just being a nice guy I gave my partners a kind of thank you bonus from the next thing that I did but I did that all myself right so it was almost like a yeah separation and I wanted to go back to the my hippie friends anyway they were a little less it wasn't that they were scary but but that didn't last because they were maybe friends might be all right but they will certainly careless and stupid but from from that point onwards after that initial Journey was that you then into the world of smuggling I thought this won't last forever you only need one setback and that changes it I probably made quite a lot of money and I could have got out but and I should have gotta you know I have couriers a leak from one of the the couriers brought the police to me and here was the problem with it it was at first I scattered now I was married to my first wife then clearly Italian girl her dad had restaurants I grabbed her I had a secret drawer with extra passports in it some money ended up four plane Journeys later in um off the Bahamas had the skipper of a day rent yacht and take me out to an island and nobody had ever been on before it was empty sat there on a towel I thought hmm the level of surveillance I had means it's quite a big operation they're funded and I checked with a lawyer before the bigger the money they spent the more determined they'll be stay away or go back I mean I don't know why would anybody do this uh well I wasn't broke um I didn't have to there was no pressure on me the more I went through the problems the more attractive the whole thing is uh she didn't like it much well again do you think because it was a puzzle to be solved because um arrogance really we've gone from basically someone who was kind of mildly interested in making a group of people meeting a group of um safe hackers to someone who pulled off their first thing and then we've jumped to someone who has people working for them and and now is no longer taking the risk themselves now the police are on to you and you're on this desert island well small island and you're thinking about going back into it was this like a turning point in your life in terms of going you know because the other option I suppose was to go straight but were you just more it was that just not an option for you I'd gone to my lawyer Ralph he said look this is what I picked up because I my travel agent had tipped me to a couple of detectives that come in he traveled again while I was in on the phone okay uh actually they're all innocent really yeah you know and and gave him a long list of names um they wanted travel details for and a telephone number which I traced uh to um a private office building which had been rented by state and federal police they were so distrusting of their own they didn't want to even run this thing from um regular police headquarters my lawyer said well what you sure it's you said Ralph look at the list of names there's 30 there I'm 26 of them passports are a lot easier to get back then than there now so you had 26 aliases that you were traveling on yeah right okay um and I described where they were he said David they are funded well they're not bear this in mind but although I what they won't get me with anything they're funded you think they're going to walk away after a year and say oh sorry boss you spend a million dollars and uh nothing doing they don't work like that but this is how stubborn I was I thought because he said the only thing you can do is disappear for at least a couple of years and then you can come back if that's what you want and of course I had justifications for it I thought okay I'll I'll build up a bit more money and then I'll disappear but um it was only after things went terribly badly that I realized I shouldn't play like this anymore what it was they um because the challenge just kept coming so now so did you go back to Australia I went back to Australia and and when I retired within three months right but they weren't waiting for you to arrest you or no no they wanted they wanted something solid okay [Music] um I won't go into the long machinations of it all but um somebody we knew uh was getting things from a Thai Courier and he got arrested he sold us out to the police so that that The Courier would now come to us and I always have some solid evidence right he would bring things but we got away with that because that was another challenge but the police got tired of all this arrested me no drugs of course so it was a difficult case the worst kind of case is that where there's no solid evidence and in a way it's better to go to court where you've got a Smoking Gun and a dead body on the ground because at least you know where you are but where there's nothing tangible and it's conspiracies and this was a huge trial six months long what is that 119 Witnesses 6 000 pages of uh telephone intercept massive thing won't made it worse too and I think this was um would change things for me um the pressure was put on for confessions but it'd be silly to confess and you can't confess on somebody else's behalf can you that's not nice um lots of the family were arrested even my mother was taken and it went oh wow just to put pressure on uh did she know what you did oh she had an idea right okay I mean I used to have bin liners full of money I'd leave behind the fridge yeah you don't get that in the cinema do you not done not a very good day you know uh because they arrested so many people now when they arrested our wives and my business partner Michael his wife just had a baby it was we had to do a deal here I didn't want to but I was going to say I said to Michael look I know you don't like it but we'll play to it get the girls out of trouble we'll Escape that's a good challenge that way [Music] um but unfortunately um the intelligence section put an arsonist Informer in with the girls to get some information her fire was lit uh burnt down the women's prison and my wife and my business partner's wife was were killed uh that's awful and so the Informer that they put in there yeah why did they pick an arsonist for Daniel writer name was I don't know why I remember that after 40 years God so that's quite a big that was oh and and just uh to make things worse the story put about town to scare the careers into talking because they wouldn't speak was that we'd we were killing off all the witnesses and starting with our own family where does that come from um we ended up in a super max prison nightmarish electronic zoo with two inch glass and electronic doors and insane inmates held 48 death rate 27 people a year died in that little supermax going to court in Chains with a SWAT team taking it it was so so much Michael fell to pieces he was just a wreck he didn't make it uh he survived the jail but died when he got out the only way I could survive all of that was to strip away everything I you know I found myself in the supermax concrete everything's concrete the bed everything there's no everything's still just with the tape player from my lure listening to the the tapes the bug tapes the microphones in my house I could play back my life for the last six months clearly you're moving from room to room taking telephone calls she was crying about something I didn't know what I never know and David that's gone immerse yourself in the worst that they have you will not survive this otherwise trial sort of went not so good acquitted of most things but convicted enough 10 years difficult imprisonment but I the only way I could deal with it was to say did I want revenge that was more my fault I brought this about I got her in there I mean a family of a very kind to me about it considering I wouldn't be but it doesn't matter in Chains and super Mech strip it all away it is nothing everyone is a potential enemy everything it just nothing mattered win the day win the night I mean this is a place we had to fill in a book to get some toilet paper the showers were in front of them in a glass box um if you went on a visit they'd zip you up and lock you in a suit so you had no pockets there was after that and her death I felt like there was nothing that could affect me you're wrong about these things you know we're human but I got out and they were there they even visited me to say we'll be on you when you get out the police yeah we enjoyed the old days didn't you yeah I said pretending you know and just to make the point that they were there when I got out um I I'd done a whole lot of Woodwork in the prison in the last place I was at carving intricate things making these really great trick Chinese boxes with beeswax they intercepted the van that was taking it from the prison back to my house and smashed it all to pieces I put it in a box just to say don't think that we will never be here we can do what we want so I decided to leave the country I was um how old am I by then let's work it out yeah uh I started all this Mischief when I was about 18 got arrested at 22. 23 uh um 16 years 17 years either under surveillance or in bad prisons got out and I'm under surveillance again um so how old so you're number 37 about 37. so that's already you know that's a big chunk of Life there but you've lost quite a lot of it to prison or surveillance well at no point now were you like okay and I wasn't a normal person uh really when I got out because of the experience of prison I'd already stripped most of Myself Away to deal with the death of the Superman yeah and and watching people be burnt to death in the place which was frequent somebody had contact glue pulled all over him and then satellite oh God Gods came in and the other one's standing there with a Tire swinging it around to make sure to let him burn let him burn Jesus Barry's name was testicles swollen like apples but black okay he died two hours later in hospital anyway um that was regular account to deal with that I'd already strip things away so when I got a little apartment when I got out and my mother had arranged things for me when they were there when they'd leave rude messages on my answer machine when they'd be behind me everywhere I thought all right I remember this David it never ends if you want to survive go back to the way you were you know in in the super max Anything Can Happen anytime but I didn't want to live like that um I got a fresh passport and most elaborate means um I could spend a week explaining how that came into existence but I went to Thailand to pick up some money I had three days there it was just before Christmas I left at that time on purpose so that they maybe I thought maybe it's their weak point that they want to have families in their life just at Christmas I've parked my mum's car and and left the keys somewhere for her nobody knew were you not meant to leave the country no no no licenses oh I see we're just going to take a minute here to talk about a sponsor of this show which is manscaped we were sent a package to try out by manscaped but Conor one of our producers is already a fan of the brand I believe yeah absolutely I've been using manscape for a little while now and Ben as you know it's that time of year people start asking you what you want for Christmas and I would say that a great gift for a man especially one that might have everything is the manscape performance package 4.0 so what's in that so you get the lawnmower 4.0 electric trimmer you get some anti-chafe boxer shorts which I can vouch for as well as a couple of other grooming products that smell great fantastic well it sounds like a five-star review from uconnor absolutely so Connor you were talking about the performance package there's loads of other great gift ideas such as the hygiene bundle all available at manscape.com com and all gifts that men will genuinely love to receive this Christmas if you are a listener of this podcast you get 20 off and free shipping all you have to do is go to manscape.com and use the code minutes that's manscape.com m-i-n-u-t-e-s minutes um so why are we doing that the risk is it worth it I didn't want to play anymore right I wanted to uh see if I could have a something resembling like a a real life just to find some corner of the world plan was to to return to London and oh so you were leaving forever I'm leaving forever okay I see nobody knew it um I had a couple of hundred thousand in Thailand I thought um which I returned to pick up um now I suppose people say this Crooks always say this most unusual circumstances led to my arrest well they were but then again they always are aren't they or you wouldn't be telling the story or you wouldn't have been arrested but um the USDA was involved lots of people lots of players uh no real drugs are found uh they did an airport sweep and listed me up for like an ounce of something and a false passport or two the money I had just disappeared into pockets but those when I arrived there I felt so free I knew this identity was good I just like floating on air really I slipped out of my protective mode you know that when we stick to the plan and all right you don't want to leave I should have even stayed there for six months just get some sensible view of the world but I I didn't uh and as I went to the airport I could see they were all around me and I melted back into the crowd and disappeared again I thought well that serves me right for changing that attitude I'd had from back in super max and I just glaze over concentrate on the details which I needed to do because when I went to make a phone call later at the travel agency uh waiting it was so depressing being thrown into the Thai prison and I had some idea what they'd be like um people I'd known had been arrested there I knew this much it never won a case you never get out well you get out and what were they arresting you for was it the the uh the passport um what did the the the money wasn't I mean what did they leave 4 000 or something like that right and there are airports we put um I saw the guy walking in with it in a plastic bag you know whatever people throw on the floor before they go through security there was a bit of hash this usual bits of weed but what they really wanted was um this 25 grams of heroin because that would finish me off a policeman um Australian one said was that yours yeah yeah sure it was he said I didn't think so what would you be carrying around that for I mean if it was 10 kilos I might understand but but that was enough the death penalty and was it yours no no no so where where would that come from if you do they do a sweep every afternoon at five o'clock they get tons of it right I get you know nervous passengers go up and then they change their minds and they throw it in the toilet too and were they just did do you think they believed it was yours or do you think they were just going this is we need to give him this bit no no I think they were using it hoping to that would be good to hold and maybe they could get something else find out what I was up to who I was seeing because I had met um somebody who's whose uncle was a big player right so there was there was I think they were optimistic there might be more Camp come out of it but but there wasn't but what difference did it make and I wasn't really worried about um those drugs or the death penalty I wanted to die anyway frankly my first escape plans from there had this I imagine getting out to find the Privacy to kill myself right I wanted to go to the dusa Tony Hotel I knew Which floor and where to get onto the roof I'd taken photographs from there many years before um they were you simply couldn't get a moment's piece dormitories with 150 guys in them screaming all night um we can't even take a crap in peace in the Thai prison We're Not Afraid though of what killing myself well no I mean I don't know being brutalized by the guards or the inmates so well I knew enough about Thailand to to know that it was a little more comic than than bad there were very bad things happen they used to um they've beaten people a couple of people get beaten to death every day there but it's a very big prison we have to get that in proportion I only wish they wouldn't use the food trolley to take the dead bodies out because um you know they don't clean them up um and could you speak the language or were you quite it was a quite different communication uh not really uh and the few languages that uh pitch up in my travels I always found that even if you know them it's better to pretend you don't okay um because they'll talk about you behind your back you know certainly didn't live it on there was I I just couldn't see any point I'd gone to such elaborate precautions on this trip um it just shouldn't have happened and I even got away from the airport and still it happened oh all that confidence that I'll figure a way out I didn't care anymore I just had enough um and I remember seeing an old guy there if you had to go to court they put change on you and um you'd line up on the ground now this old guy I was looking at him because I don't know why a big soundtrack went past he had the presence of mind to push his head under that sand truck and oh it twisted it around popped like a watermelon being dropped on the ground oh my God guys very annoyed told the trustees to get that thing away out of sight was that nice thing called it I thought you Brave bastard you yeah you've got the guts to do that was it not quite a disturbing thing to witness no it was shocking because if you haven't seen it kind of thing up close and I happen to be looking um it was uh but that that's how I felt about it but I was saved In The End by a con man and people say a lot of bad things about economy they do yes they do and they uh you can't be trusted uh they are rottenness and they will cheat you just because they're the Scorpion that's in their nature uh but sometimes they're just what you need and this rather smooth um Bostonian American um who spoke Thai and really knew his way around and I you know I thought the somewhere in this huge prison there'd be an enclave of rich and corrupt foreigners with loads of money and there'd be luxuries it wasn't there was nobody of any importance in there you know a couple of big sacrifices had been made but um a couple of very rich policemen who were in the hospital in intensive care but other than that it was it was just um the people who reached the absolute bottom Drifters in Asia who did run after run and then got sacrificed to the machine they'd get about four jobs a big Syndicate there operating careers had run four times bang they'd shot them to the police they'd be gone oh God they will turn told the same story and it was Joe it was this guest house it was such and such identical and um and and at this point had you been sentenced to death had you received oh no no no I I was trying to avoid that yeah once I came to my senses because the the Boston con had so many wonderful schemes medical thing to get me bail and know some way of a escape with a go to court I get snatched from there I had villains come over and and scope out the court too because there was a way I thought of getting out of there from the lift that took you up to the the building uh snatched from the middle as you go down changed into a different set of clothes but they all got scared thing about um some of our most loved uh and fearless villains they're pretty good in the local manner but you throw them into a place like that where people carry machine guns and shoot at will just for the hell of it not so confident they like the upper edge of being snakes um so I couldn't convince anybody to really help and it was just as well um and two and a half years passed there in this prison it's a long time it was I sort of perked up a little bit pulled myself together started exercising um got a couple of ATM cards over hadn't my favorite god um he was in charge of the the building bought myself a room renovated um so you had you bought a room within the prison that was just for you rented that's rented right you know and is that an official thing that you're allowed to do right there are places in the world where it's official right but you had an influx of money that you could pay for special treats you could survive there on um less than 500 pounds a month and be king oh wow was this the 70s or the 80s now by the way we're into um 90 495 19 the 495 because what's reported about you is that during the 80s you were a multi-millionaire um is that accurate um now what do we call a multi-millionaires a young halfway with a million and a quarter on a glass coffee table and looks around the living room and thinks I've got to get a sofa one of these days um oh goes to the car auctions in the morning buys a big yank tank with a 427 Chevy engine in it um drives it around makes his own car parking spaces you know we're smashing the front in backing the other one pushing the other cars out of the way um oh stoned off my head most of the time uh if I wasn't stunned enough I'd take a few mandracks just to colludes icing on the cake um so I didn't take care of the money and the money didn't take care of me so I guess I'm like the reason I the reason I asked was because it must have been quite a stark change going from a very rich existence to basically somewhere where you basically couldn't pay for anything initially and it was a very poor existence but I guess from what you're saying there it's not like you felt like you were Rich at the time um I've made that contrast a few times when I had my first big arrest I couldn't as I was in a cold near lightless cell of blue stone and horse hair mattress about two inches thick and wrecking a piss I would think back to the night before when I had my important to tell in huge bed and Irish linen sheets and swimming pool out there and um and we had to kind of shake off the contrast but that rubber banding must must have been hard to take because it's you're going from basically the aspiration of almost everyone where you're talking about just buying cars outright and having a swimming pool to a piss stinking bed you know it must be it was you know it's odd thing about it was providing I could see a way out a work a way out I didn't so much mind oh okay um I really trained myself to expect my whatever world I built up and and this happened several times I've done it five times had a new identity New Life new surroundings even new people and dang they're gone and every time it got worse um and there was even Thailand was desperately important because even though it was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it um you know I was somebody that nobody minded killing um so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah there's nothing like the prospect of being executed by a machine gun which is the way they did it God is that what it would have been wow yeah you know oh they'd have three guards all with a bit of string on the trigger and they'd all pull it once so that none of them could be condemned in the Buddhist sense of sin oh they don't even actually right I see it caused the bullet that finished you off oh I see so you're in the Thai prison you've been sentenced to uh rather unpleasant death penalty um how did you start coming up with this famous plan for escaping um desperation it was the last plan that looked like it was going to work um there were probably about 20 plans considered um everything from being the prison held I've since found out it holds 22 000 people oh my God in 10 sub prisons uh there's a women's section there's a young offenders there's a special reminder a drug unit all of that um just a wild place it has everything it even had a prisoner-run shop where you could extract you could borrow money against your account and cash anyway um one of the plans involved being welded into a VW Combi van in the prisons Auto Workshop which would be picked up early Monday morning and I'd be driven out and that another one was um there were several courtroom ones and you couldn't just pay your way out no no it's just you could pay to have a mobile phone which in those days was a rare thing but they were around um you could pay for a bottle of clong uh whiskey you could pay I'm sure you could pay to get a a girl in your room if you could work out what a room was that a whole section full of ladyboys there and got a building full of them they used to open it up on Saturdays so um you could pay for anything but not to leave they couldn't cover that and they couldn't trust each other you would need 25 30 different guards paid off and and the gods of visitors I mean too many guides no that wouldn't work and they looked at it as a kind of betrayal only if I saw two escapes attempts there one group of uh straight kids and a Singaporean got out of their cell incredibly turned themselves into the sleeping God when they'd all lied to each other about what they didn't have you know the ropes and ways out because they're it was so outraged that they'd spoiled the guys jobs they beat them to death slowly tortured them over three months to death having put them in little code lockers the soy they call them drag them out in elephant chains every day and batter them senseless uh internal bleeding usually did it um look I've got a bowl of rice and a painting to poo in that was it um even the water was it was just too horrible so if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off even my Swedish friends Sten the Viking he backed out at the last minute I couldn't get people to go with me all the other plants had fallen to bits because they depended on other people I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars and I needed equipment for that and here's a really important point I guess as bad as this world is you've got to try to find good people if you ask somebody if you asked your friend yeah and and you're finished you'll manage to get a phone call and say friend it's been here um I need you to get um I don't know four hacksaw blades and cut them into the dowel rods of a of a poster and then paint it all up and send it in a huge package with this that cable ties gaffer tape but disguise all that how many people are going to do it turn around wouldn't believe it Ben called me what his neck yeah he's screwed but anyway he wouldn't believe but he wants me to do this that now people don't do it but Michael on the other hand our business partner wouldn't even let me explain he hadn't heard from me in 18 months he said David don't explain I'm sure we could get cut off tell me the important part now where do I have to be and what do I have to bring no that's a friend um and so I've always tried to do the same for the others that I've known like that um but um I did get the equipment together that I needed and everything um about escapes from a big prison is not like your hope it's going to be you know I turned it out walked around the streets and it had streets inside it um and timed it with my trusty Casio and it was so I knew roughly how long it would take to get me but the night's a different world I'm a prisoner I'm only used to noise during the day even the fan chopping around in the Cell at night it's so quiet everything I did squeaked and rattled and twisted I came across a panel that had to be a nail had to come out and that and they'll protest it and scream their wrench out of the way it took um uh seven or eight worlds uh sorry seven or eight walls to cross over I say worlds because they really were every building was a different thing and I got lost and I went past the terminal AIDS Ward that building hundreds of guys all die and I could smell it before I got there because this necrotic Rotting Flesh and I couldn't resist looking in I'm carrying this huge long ladder made out of bamboo poles and fake picture frames gaffer taped along the center [Music] um and I looked up and I saw all these little faces in the Moonlight wrapped in so much pain and despair they didn't have the energy to cry out to the guards if they'd been in any other prisoners they would have the trustees there were absolute scum of the earth had whistled little uniforms sell the drugs one day and the rest of the guys for it the next all of that um and it was only by um well I only got to the outer wall by Dawn and if somebody had been with me I wouldn't have made it either you wouldn't have no imagine I've taken all night to get there and at each point where this something was unexpected I've had to dream up something and I get a little basic toolkit and I sometimes I'd have to sacrifice part of my ladder to make a hook to pull down barbed wire and the technique for using the thing was awkward you had to prop it walk up drop down the other side so you're twisting over the walls like that manual is entirely barbed wire so I had to go underneath it covered in mud the the last one was really too high and there was a Mars bar Creek the the moat that ran around I did you know if I was with somebody else we'd be arguing wouldn't we oh Spa Creek oh it was full of turds bombing around it was caught out of the sewer yeah you did ask um illustrative okay we're just gonna take a quick break from the show to talk about a sponsor of this episode better help better help is an online Counseling Service which connects people to therapists and counselors I'm joined by one of our producers bryony is counseling something you've had experience with do you know what it's interesting because when I was growing up the same kind of challenges in life would happen but people wouldn't necessarily go to therapy or talk about therapy and I feel like since uh maybe my late teens early 20s people are starting to go to therapy and talking about it and I have definitely used it in my life and it's been massively beneficial same and do you because I think one of the things that people often mistake they think it's just for big things yeah but what's the other experience of that thing I think life always throws you know small challenges and large challenges and sometimes the big things need talking about but actually you know starting a new school or starting a new job can rile up that same level of anxiety and it's just really helpful to be able to talk to someone about it who is completely impartial not involved in your life and just kind of a safe space I guess to just say whatever you want to say you completely agree as the world's largest therapy service better help as much 3 million people with professionally licensed and vetted therapists available 100 online plus it's affordable just fill out a brief questionnaire to match with a therapist if things aren't clicking you can easily switch to a new therapist anytime it couldn't be simpler no waiting rooms no traffic no endless searching for the right therapist learn more and save 10 of your first month at betterhelp.com minutes with that's betterhelp help help.com minutes with um now there was one way of oh Beyond marsburg create this a foot and a half of land before this huge huge wall you've got to get a ladder that's too heavy to carry too imbalanced to do anything with but you've got a bit of rope how do you get it to the other side of Mars bar which has all got tangled barb wire in that so it'll catch get it in place and up against the wall when you've got no ground to to walk on now there is a way and uh I guess people have to listen to me describe it either to you or in my book okay fine but too long to tell here sure but um I could see the glow of dawn as I got to the top which had electricity running through it too just to make it the top of the wall dead yeah yeah wow but um my friend who um was in there a bit of a technician is to belong to the anarchist Society in in Britain how would you belong to a society that has rules when you anyway putting that aside he did tell me that it would only be 240 volts but to be careful um and just managed to get over that and because the original plan was to um oh there was an outer moat beyond that of 20 meters I had my clothes ready to go into a plastic bag swim the moat but just as well I didn't um because all it turned out all the guards houses were over the other side of that moat this would not be a place to go but I cleaned myself up threw some clothes on and I one of the jobs that I didn't do but I was supposed to be doing was working in the Umbrella Factory so I paid a local boy to do it um I've got a pop-up umbrella from there I thought you know you really get a perspective about I want to just simple discrimination but being an outsider a foreigner the way sometimes people feel picked upon you know we were called the white trash and we were in in Chains and everything so I knew I had to cover my face in the popular did it and I managed to get to a place where a passport was hidden and to the airport and still had a working ATM card to get me out of the country into Singapore so did you end up with the umbrella did you walk out the front gate yeah I did I had some long trousers on now in their prisoners are not allowed to wear them so I had some khaki pants I thought they might as I walked around the the narrow path to the front gate it's still mote but a little Bridge I thought another figure it's a guard arriving late and sneaking in and I did I felt like Ripley an alien uh looking at thinking lucky lucky this is where it all ends doesn't it and I'm thinking that every moment and looking up and there was just enough light rain to justify the umbrella yeah I would learn later that was actually the not a rain from the gods but the spittle of their laughter because they had worse things in mind for me later on I mean it's so it's you know how many people are you aware how many people had escaped from that prison up to that point was it some every year or was it very infrequent none um the ties sometimes ran away when they were doing the gardens in Chains outside but Escape From Within um I'd known of in 20 years people could recall two attempts no foreigners um and they didn't trust the foreigners that's why they put you on the third floor right quite rightly yes and and how long had it taken you from like the beginning of the uh I started cutting at um 11 45 I paid a lot to get a light switch in there normally the lights are on all the time um okay and I said to my favorite guard oh yeah Ponting or whatever his name was I can't sleep with that thing I'll put a light switch in um um now they didn't say it as corruption or bribe taking they thought I'm doing this nice guy a favor and I'll be lucky because of it that's a very big thing over there you know if I get caught I'm unlucky then so they can batter me to death I mean sure it's kind of self-justifies any action that a human being might take so he started cutting around eight for 11 45 11 45 okay it's quite close through one bar by two in the morning oh God stencia listen we'll go on the next note I looked around and Kevin the American from Hawaii I didn't even know this was happening uh Mirage the Indian I know he's going to talk the next morning he was kakaria LA pantaloni right in the cell never mind holding out and not saying anything he would have it would have been finished I never would have made it and I guess I could have seen the missing bars potentially but I learned later on I actually caught up with somebody who was in there Scottish guy um he was there for selling ecstasy to the Two well-off Sons and Daughters of wealthy policemen anyway um he remembers they the guards couldn't figure that I'd left oh um he said David they ran around the the prison calling out your name it was Daniel Westlake while I was there Daniel Daniel they okay that somebody drew their attention to the cut bar in there yeah my Scottish friend said they the gods wanted they thought that okay he's got out he's angry about something uh Daniel but he's not actually he'll never get out he couldn't get it they never found the the ladder down the front wall until much much later so for um uh uh only one of them said oh we better check the airport they sent a couple of guys down there um just a little bit late and you were gone by then only just and remember man you've got a passport from a Chinese connection that you barely know but kind of like the cut of his jib but are you gonna put your life on the line on that and at every moment you're handing it over you know like the look of it yeah they don't like the look of it they're typing it up and you're thinking they got onto the computer have they done that bit uh have they entered my arrival was this I knew it was freshly stolen or sold off was only a few weeks old uh I mean not new was had only gone missing a few weeks earlier so it was still good but very nerve-wracking and I didn't have a photo I had to use my old um uh radio operators license that had a photograph in it to get reproduced into this thing so it was a bit grainy um and even on the plane it was delay and takeoff oh God and a mumbling Captain oh sorry um we we have a thing with one passenger I just asked what thing exactly soon enough thwomp doors to manual oh but I've got an hour you know looking at this passport I don't like it get to Singapore but I make it through so you got to Singapore yeah but you did end up going back to prison not a Thai prison but a different prison he's suggesting uh I did something wrong well I'm hoping you're going to tell me um no well okay uh I didn't stay in Singapore long because um I sat there in the hotel room unable to digest food not prepared by my own cook sure I in the hotel room in Singapore I realized you could work out who had left that day if they'd flown my air by simply going to the airport and children you work it out yourselves at home you check everybody who's left separate the foreigners hmm go a step further let's keep the Canadian and American the British the Australian New Zealand all the English-speaking passport Society um just to you know reduce the numbers take those names check with the embassies any of these names belong to lost or stolen passports that have been reported yeah five of them because that's Bangkok you know not the only Mischief maker there but nonetheless um they probably knew I could be who was I Charles McClintock hmm sorry Charles I had to borrow your passport but it was an essential cause but you're not wanted anymore of course are you no but I did get an unwelcome knock at the door some years ago uh by the police who um would it be to go excuse me Westminster Court known for the terrorist cases extradition or parking fights wow I'd lift the car anywhere lately so it was going to be one of the other two and it was extradition to Thailand I fought that case for two years and um it was difficult um but managed to effectively win in the end so the ties have dropped that one and I can't be taken back there I'm not wanted anywhere um I can nobody can do what they want but um I I'm not I haven't got anything pending I'm not in business I'm a bit cautious I even got sent something in the the mail a few years ago and I thought it was some gift from some halfway ambitious wombat in in Pakistan sending me a bit of dope thinking oh yeah there's a gift you might like that connection made no I mean people had my address all around the world ever since Danny Dyer um it turned out to be more complicated than that but um very dangerous for me to walk into a courtroom so I don't even imagine you're me and knock at the door oh here's something for you Ben you don't like the look of it you refuse it you're in court no matter why did you refuse that was it your name no you was up The Jig was up proof ladies and gentlemen oh you accept it ah you accepted it proof ladies and gentlemen wife saying to me Jeanette and whom I met in Pakistan years ago and she was there to fish out her husband on a two-ton hash deal he didn't make it anyway um she said throw the thing away I'm thinking in court again ladies and gentlemen he threw the stuff away I can't win so very cautious about all that kind of stuff um fair enough but I take it you won't be going for a holiday to Thailand anytime soon I didn't think so okay so how many do you know off the top of your head of your life how many years of your life have you spent in prison ultimately I did add it up once I'm 66 now and I suppose I've spent um but 22 years the thing that occurs to me and I met you before and I thought the same thing is like you obviously extremely intelligent extremely resourceful it can't be well but well anyway but do you regret the choices you made in terms of do you see those 22 years in prison as something you had no control over it's just the way the dice rolled or do you see them as a mistake on your part um worse than a mistake mistake suggest you didn't know uh where you were going wrong I was taking those steps into uh of a precipice that I'd defied there is no gravity I said I said I will work out something before I hit the ground um when I was It was kind of in stages when I was young it was just arrogance and and showing off and later on when everything was destroyed it was kind of I'd scraped away all of my life and would just go on um then in the third stage it was escaping away from places rebuilding up and being weakened every time it was taken away again um and do I regret it yeah I'm sure I um no you know some people say oh yeah but David just smuggled everything on Earth you scumbag you you know um think of the lives you've destroyed and the people you've heard ah and I go to start to explain that it's not quite black and white uh I mean I've had drug habits myself that I've carelessly allowed um but I thought what's the point anything I say we just sound like self-justification so well don't listen to me then you know but things that have happened that have taught me a lot it's interesting you say that because one of a lot of the comments on our well on the first video we did a lot of the comments where people saying someone needs to make a movie about this guy but a lot of the other comments were people saying he's so charismatic and likable but he must be a really dangerous person to have been involved with all these worlds for so long and um we've interviewed a couple of drug smugglers and I would say they're the ones that I've met have been the ones that probably are more someone you'd see is traditionally quite an obviously dangerous person you come across as very Charming charismatic roguish where do you see yourself on that scale do you see yourself as someone who was dangerous or do you see yourself as someone who's just moved from area to area as it occurred um kind of like this a dangerous I suppose what most people see that and you know if somebody was a problem for me would I find the best option to have them killed or not but really there always was a kind of Vestige of that's a failure if you can't think of anything better than to have them killed then then then what are you doing there's a million clever ways of solving your problems and that besides which there's always going to be people you can't kill everybody um not only that who killed the killers that you've got to do the killing you know you know they always say that about the quiet ones and all of that but it was the people who bothered to put up a smoke screen um they're establishing a um later Alibi a courtroom personality but I met him he didn't seem bothered by all of that why would he have him killed and those are the ones that um seem to be more dangerous and if I was such a dangerous person like that I certainly been absolute fool to break from that mold and say otherwise wouldn't it very true David it's great to see you again thank you so much for coming in always a pleasure yeah and I've Got a Feeling we'll be seeing you again at some point as well it's possible it does may cross thank you I'll be like oh my God they're in my head they they know they know that was a song and so they put that song on the radio and it's all everything revolves around me or you know and this happened well sometimes happens today you know I'm I'm thinking of someone in my head someone under there like on the street	changed into a different set of clothes but they all got scared thing about um some of our most loved uh and fearless villains they're pretty good in the local manner but you throw them into a place like that where people carry machine guns and shoot at will just for the hell of it not so confident they like the upper edge of being snakes um so I couldn't convince anybody to really help and it was just as well um and two and a half years passed there in this prison it's a long time it was I sort of perked up a little bit pulled myself together started exercising um got a couple of ATM cards over hadn't my favorite god um he was in charge of the the building bought myself a room renovated um so you had you bought a room within the prison that was just for you rented that's rented right you know and is that an official thing that you're allowed to do right there are places in the world where it's official right but you had an influx of money that you could pay for special treats you could survive there on um less than 500 pounds a month and be king oh wow was this the 70s or the 80s now by the way we're into um 90 495 19 the 495 because what's reported about you is that during the 80s you were a multi-millionaire um is that accurate	2	6	8	changed into a different set of clothes but they all got scared thing about um some of our most loved uh and fearless villains they're pretty good in the local manner but you throw them into a place like that where people carry machine guns and shoot at will just for the hell of it not so confident they like the upper edge of being snakes um so I couldn't convince anybody to really help and it was just as well um and two and a half years passed there in this prison it's a long time it was I sort of perked up a little bit pulled myself together started exercising um got a couple of ATM cards over hadn't my favorite god um he was in charge of the the building bought myself a room renovated um so you had you bought a room within the prison that was just for you rented that's rented right you know and is that an official thing that you're allowed to do right there are places in the world where it's official right but you had an influx of money that you could pay for special treats you could survive there on um less than 500 pounds a month and be king	now by the way we're into um 90 495 19 the 495 because what's reported about you is that during the 80s you were a multi-millionaire um is that accurate	2,-3,6	0,2,8	2	-3	6	0	2	8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyZyHHexx7s	4,101	oyZyHHexx7s	2022-12-07 00:00:00	even though I was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off I couldn't get people to go with me I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars [Music] it's great to have you back David obviously we've met before but for anyone who doesn't know who you are for new listeners or new viewers could you give us a brief introduction to what you are famous for well I suppose uh most well known for uh having escaped to prison in Thailand in Bangkok uh the biggest one they have there clong Prim it uh wasn't something I did frivolously I was going to be executed within a couple of weeks so it seemed like a good time to leave okay now um we're going to get into that in a bit more detail but one thing that I remember about you from last time is you're the most incredible talker and we took away the inter the initial interview we've done with you and ended up having to make it into two long episodes because you have a lot of different very colorful uh experiences so do forgive me if I Jimmy us through oh no I can understand that I mean the only place I never talk is in the police station I always like some of my uh work colleagues took um what was it one slap to get them talking but five to shut them up oh okay so let's go right back to the beginning um you were born in the UK and then I believe you emigrated to Australia well um it was all a family thing yes I was born in basewater in London I spent the first few years of my life then uh there but my parents broke up divorced and I went with my mother to Australia with my older sister so I don't have any really very early memories of London apart from some old eight millimeter movie footage of me learning to walk in Hyde Park my dad was waving a five pound note in front of my face and I was making every effort to grab it I continued that behavior for many many years afterwards returned to Australia um finished some schooling um got really contrasting jobs I worked in an adult Agency for a while um but also before that I was got a job in a cinema now it was the and under literally an underground place but it was there that I got introduced to a bunch of crooks um some of the girls there had boyfriends that I used to run down with um strange boxes or bits of money or fur coats and then wink at me bolt out the back door pursued by often policemen undercover ones of course whom we'd misdirect somewhere but that Circle they were um safe crackers and they really didn't trust Outsiders and didn't much like the sound of me but because of I demonstrated a couple of things by being look everybody was really very anti-authority then I I don't mean hostile but for people now they they wouldn't have experienced that in the uh late 60s 70s we were so snotty and arrogant we really thought we were going to change the world and that um the laws were all nothing and the way to change them was to break them well that was the kind of vanity we had so um when I got to know the safe crackers uh better there was something really interesting I mean I didn't like the idea you know stealing things seemed a bit tacky but on the other hand they kind of all needed the money from the from their backgrounds and everything but that wasn't so much the the interest it was the technicalities of getting into these things okay um they used to drill through the top um having anchored it with the drill with clamps and and put a kind of little lens inside a cystoscope used in medicine and watch the the wheels turning around this is the old kind of old-fashioned Hollywood style it was yeah and um behind the safe were three discs and you had to line them up and they'd once they got in they'd take the door with them so that the opposition the safe makers wouldn't know how they'd got in and it was a a constant battle between the manufacturers and them because they've come across new safes which had Special Metals in it that was mixed like a a crunchy nut bar very hard metals very soft ones so the drill bit would slip on them snap and you got a sense that this was almost like a game where um they would try something then try to beat them and they were very loyal to each other um they they never spoke out of school as it were um when I got involved with them I'd only have to if I had trouble I don't have to make one phone call and people would appear out of nowhere and I thought yeah this this is kind of better than the treacherous boys school that I I grew up in and how old were you at this point um 19 years old 19. so were you thinking you were making a conscious decision to move into illegal activities or at that point in time and at that point in the world did it feel like more of a kind of a bit of roguish fun would you say I was drawn to it anyway because it was interesting and um I didn't really have a lot of fear I think sometimes what we do or don't do is depending on how scary it seems yeah agreed um I was born with a low resting heart rate as they say you know if it's below 70 you're a risk taker I don't know why that is when the safe crackers retired they put some of their money into growing little crops of weed and so on but profit margin is is only through importing because like the price difference is cheap in the source countries expensive where it sells so because they couldn't do it they were almost throwing it down like a challenge like we don't know anybody who can do this and I thought well I traveled a lot um I didn't think it was going to be impossible um I thought the odds were in my phone and I looked it up I went to the library and sort of researched it a bit and where were you thinking which country Well they um they were very keen to get some um hashish from India or Nepal or somewhere okay I could see um it's bulky and there's packing problems so um they funded me and off I sailed now the operation my first operation was so deplorably bad I'm barely 20 years old I my cunning plan which involved a big piece of exported Machinery which had weights in it so the weights would come out the cash would go in it would weigh the same being returned and it was a piece of Television equipment or something that went South immediately when I didn't realize that I would have to pay a huge deposit in duty to even bring it in as a demo machine so forget that I ended up in short meeting a guy in a money exchange section of a bank I was there because I ran out and I had to send asking for more from the boys and I met him and he wasn't involved in any of this but he soon became that just he managed to get me six kilos of hash I took the 1952 ancient Grundig radio from his parents house the Shelf there guttered the thing like a fish wrapped it up and he had to get cling film in those days think of this before you travel arriving with a suitcase full of cling film doesn't look good I suppose but uh wedged it in there and then just flew back to Sydney now you can imagine what happened well just before we get on to what happened you know one thing that strikes me is what year was would this have been this was uh 77 77 so it's amazing think that back then if someone was going to India for the first time now they could go on Google Maps they could research it or they could find out who they could find phone numbers contacts they could be put in contact with people before they've even set off whereas you must have at that age at that time been going in slightly blind you know touching down in a foreign country that you didn't know well no contacts was that not quite daunting well what was more um troubling with um how everything would fail and then I'd have to um you know come up with another plan what context somebody I knew um um there were no bank robber who joined the hare krishnas and fled to India right and I had his name and and the ashram in Delhi where where he was was supposed to have been uh I didn't really catch up with him on that trip but okay sure so so then you get back to Australia with your radio that is now full to the brim with and I get stopped you you did get stopped okay I could stop because uh I'm I'm on a British passport um and it's the only trip I've ever done and I'm that age I'd stop me oh fatherly type was at the Customs desk now the the systems were different in those days um it was Sydney too which is very and certainly was very relaxed back then right he opened the suitcase uh there was nothing in there except a pair of socks there's a towel wrapping up this massive radio which he lifted up so it was buckled at the sides little red packets poking out oh it smelled like a hedgehog for a patchouliers okay not much of a disguise um he let me go he uh put it back looked around to make sure that none of his workmates were watching him being so soft um and then turned to me and said you're going back there you're going to do this again [Music] all right you can take your we'll call it a radio shall we get out of here what he thought I realized later was that he didn't want the whole grammar of the day arresting me filling out papers and it would have been a a long time plus I guess being a dad he thought if I he's obviously an idiot you're right if I send him into Gladiator Academy or it wasn't really like that in those days but certainly contact center um the prison what am I doing um well I guess uh he was hopeful you know I whilst out of there must have smuggling me but I experienced then what um I got years later which was kind of a real Downer after you know having got nowhere with The Hare krishnas and and cultivated the shoeshine boys and had my money stolen at Amex uh by some Scallywags in Delhi all sorts of Little Adventures over there in India and nonetheless made it it's kind of like that's all there is to it I I didn't really want to give it to anyone um sort of felt like you didn't have a big moment of no a bit of money that came earlier that's handy right uh I paid back what I owed and settled up for for the next thing so but once that was started when you sorry I interrupted you go oh I was just going to say it to finish it even though they'd funded me the guys were very surprised to see me back but at all at all oh you made it oh because some of them say oh you'll just run away with it uh even if that's what he's doing who knows what he's doing you know and then I could see sitting around you can imagine there's like a table full of well like three guys and then a kind of Darkness shrouded over that room I thought uh it's not valuable enough to kill me you know what what is this mood why did you bring that well that's what you've been talking about yeah you could have loaded that with cane or smack or something you guys we say nothing but terrible things about a class or heavy drugs that don't want to know about it right and I could read then that wait a minute there we're all might be guys together and having fun getting into the safe and whatnot but there was a kind of different it was something a very strong lesson I'd have to be thoughtful about that um there could be times where things didn't work out not necessarily that my safety was at risk I didn't see it that way but I knew that there were Ruthless People right okay yeah so you got an insight into a mindset that had been a bit below the surface it was there I just chose not to see it but um I then went on to you know refine everything and Vary everything and then did you after that first time did you were you still working sort of for them or did you immediately well when you wake up on your own when things um I picked up and there was enough money around out of uh out of strategy rather than just being a nice guy I gave my partners a kind of thank you bonus from the next thing that I did but I did that all myself right so it was almost like a yeah separation and I wanted to go back to the my hippie friends anyway they were a little less it wasn't that they were scary but but that didn't last because they were maybe friends might be all right but they will certainly careless and stupid but from from that point onwards after that initial Journey was that you then into the world of smuggling I thought this won't last forever you only need one setback and that changes it I probably made quite a lot of money and I could have got out but and I should have gotta you know I have couriers a leak from one of the the couriers brought the police to me and here was the problem with it it was at first I scattered now I was married to my first wife then clearly Italian girl her dad had restaurants I grabbed her I had a secret drawer with extra passports in it some money ended up four plane Journeys later in um off the Bahamas had the skipper of a day rent yacht and take me out to an island and nobody had ever been on before it was empty sat there on a towel I thought hmm the level of surveillance I had means it's quite a big operation they're funded and I checked with a lawyer before the bigger the money they spent the more determined they'll be stay away or go back I mean I don't know why would anybody do this uh well I wasn't broke um I didn't have to there was no pressure on me the more I went through the problems the more attractive the whole thing is uh she didn't like it much well again do you think because it was a puzzle to be solved because um arrogance really we've gone from basically someone who was kind of mildly interested in making a group of people meeting a group of um safe hackers to someone who pulled off their first thing and then we've jumped to someone who has people working for them and and now is no longer taking the risk themselves now the police are on to you and you're on this desert island well small island and you're thinking about going back into it was this like a turning point in your life in terms of going you know because the other option I suppose was to go straight but were you just more it was that just not an option for you I'd gone to my lawyer Ralph he said look this is what I picked up because I my travel agent had tipped me to a couple of detectives that come in he traveled again while I was in on the phone okay uh actually they're all innocent really yeah you know and and gave him a long list of names um they wanted travel details for and a telephone number which I traced uh to um a private office building which had been rented by state and federal police they were so distrusting of their own they didn't want to even run this thing from um regular police headquarters my lawyer said well what you sure it's you said Ralph look at the list of names there's 30 there I'm 26 of them passports are a lot easier to get back then than there now so you had 26 aliases that you were traveling on yeah right okay um and I described where they were he said David they are funded well they're not bear this in mind but although I what they won't get me with anything they're funded you think they're going to walk away after a year and say oh sorry boss you spend a million dollars and uh nothing doing they don't work like that but this is how stubborn I was I thought because he said the only thing you can do is disappear for at least a couple of years and then you can come back if that's what you want and of course I had justifications for it I thought okay I'll I'll build up a bit more money and then I'll disappear but um it was only after things went terribly badly that I realized I shouldn't play like this anymore what it was they um because the challenge just kept coming so now so did you go back to Australia I went back to Australia and and when I retired within three months right but they weren't waiting for you to arrest you or no no they wanted they wanted something solid okay [Music] um I won't go into the long machinations of it all but um somebody we knew uh was getting things from a Thai Courier and he got arrested he sold us out to the police so that that The Courier would now come to us and I always have some solid evidence right he would bring things but we got away with that because that was another challenge but the police got tired of all this arrested me no drugs of course so it was a difficult case the worst kind of case is that where there's no solid evidence and in a way it's better to go to court where you've got a Smoking Gun and a dead body on the ground because at least you know where you are but where there's nothing tangible and it's conspiracies and this was a huge trial six months long what is that 119 Witnesses 6 000 pages of uh telephone intercept massive thing won't made it worse too and I think this was um would change things for me um the pressure was put on for confessions but it'd be silly to confess and you can't confess on somebody else's behalf can you that's not nice um lots of the family were arrested even my mother was taken and it went oh wow just to put pressure on uh did she know what you did oh she had an idea right okay I mean I used to have bin liners full of money I'd leave behind the fridge yeah you don't get that in the cinema do you not done not a very good day you know uh because they arrested so many people now when they arrested our wives and my business partner Michael his wife just had a baby it was we had to do a deal here I didn't want to but I was going to say I said to Michael look I know you don't like it but we'll play to it get the girls out of trouble we'll Escape that's a good challenge that way [Music] um but unfortunately um the intelligence section put an arsonist Informer in with the girls to get some information her fire was lit uh burnt down the women's prison and my wife and my business partner's wife was were killed uh that's awful and so the Informer that they put in there yeah why did they pick an arsonist for Daniel writer name was I don't know why I remember that after 40 years God so that's quite a big that was oh and and just uh to make things worse the story put about town to scare the careers into talking because they wouldn't speak was that we'd we were killing off all the witnesses and starting with our own family where does that come from um we ended up in a super max prison nightmarish electronic zoo with two inch glass and electronic doors and insane inmates held 48 death rate 27 people a year died in that little supermax going to court in Chains with a SWAT team taking it it was so so much Michael fell to pieces he was just a wreck he didn't make it uh he survived the jail but died when he got out the only way I could survive all of that was to strip away everything I you know I found myself in the supermax concrete everything's concrete the bed everything there's no everything's still just with the tape player from my lure listening to the the tapes the bug tapes the microphones in my house I could play back my life for the last six months clearly you're moving from room to room taking telephone calls she was crying about something I didn't know what I never know and David that's gone immerse yourself in the worst that they have you will not survive this otherwise trial sort of went not so good acquitted of most things but convicted enough 10 years difficult imprisonment but I the only way I could deal with it was to say did I want revenge that was more my fault I brought this about I got her in there I mean a family of a very kind to me about it considering I wouldn't be but it doesn't matter in Chains and super Mech strip it all away it is nothing everyone is a potential enemy everything it just nothing mattered win the day win the night I mean this is a place we had to fill in a book to get some toilet paper the showers were in front of them in a glass box um if you went on a visit they'd zip you up and lock you in a suit so you had no pockets there was after that and her death I felt like there was nothing that could affect me you're wrong about these things you know we're human but I got out and they were there they even visited me to say we'll be on you when you get out the police yeah we enjoyed the old days didn't you yeah I said pretending you know and just to make the point that they were there when I got out um I I'd done a whole lot of Woodwork in the prison in the last place I was at carving intricate things making these really great trick Chinese boxes with beeswax they intercepted the van that was taking it from the prison back to my house and smashed it all to pieces I put it in a box just to say don't think that we will never be here we can do what we want so I decided to leave the country I was um how old am I by then let's work it out yeah uh I started all this Mischief when I was about 18 got arrested at 22. 23 uh um 16 years 17 years either under surveillance or in bad prisons got out and I'm under surveillance again um so how old so you're number 37 about 37. so that's already you know that's a big chunk of Life there but you've lost quite a lot of it to prison or surveillance well at no point now were you like okay and I wasn't a normal person uh really when I got out because of the experience of prison I'd already stripped most of Myself Away to deal with the death of the Superman yeah and and watching people be burnt to death in the place which was frequent somebody had contact glue pulled all over him and then satellite oh God Gods came in and the other one's standing there with a Tire swinging it around to make sure to let him burn let him burn Jesus Barry's name was testicles swollen like apples but black okay he died two hours later in hospital anyway um that was regular account to deal with that I'd already strip things away so when I got a little apartment when I got out and my mother had arranged things for me when they were there when they'd leave rude messages on my answer machine when they'd be behind me everywhere I thought all right I remember this David it never ends if you want to survive go back to the way you were you know in in the super max Anything Can Happen anytime but I didn't want to live like that um I got a fresh passport and most elaborate means um I could spend a week explaining how that came into existence but I went to Thailand to pick up some money I had three days there it was just before Christmas I left at that time on purpose so that they maybe I thought maybe it's their weak point that they want to have families in their life just at Christmas I've parked my mum's car and and left the keys somewhere for her nobody knew were you not meant to leave the country no no no licenses oh I see we're just going to take a minute here to talk about a sponsor of this show which is manscaped we were sent a package to try out by manscaped but Conor one of our producers is already a fan of the brand I believe yeah absolutely I've been using manscape for a little while now and Ben as you know it's that time of year people start asking you what you want for Christmas and I would say that a great gift for a man especially one that might have everything is the manscape performance package 4.0 so what's in that so you get the lawnmower 4.0 electric trimmer you get some anti-chafe boxer shorts which I can vouch for as well as a couple of other grooming products that smell great fantastic well it sounds like a five-star review from uconnor absolutely so Connor you were talking about the performance package there's loads of other great gift ideas such as the hygiene bundle all available at manscape.com com and all gifts that men will genuinely love to receive this Christmas if you are a listener of this podcast you get 20 off and free shipping all you have to do is go to manscape.com and use the code minutes that's manscape.com m-i-n-u-t-e-s minutes um so why are we doing that the risk is it worth it I didn't want to play anymore right I wanted to uh see if I could have a something resembling like a a real life just to find some corner of the world plan was to to return to London and oh so you were leaving forever I'm leaving forever okay I see nobody knew it um I had a couple of hundred thousand in Thailand I thought um which I returned to pick up um now I suppose people say this Crooks always say this most unusual circumstances led to my arrest well they were but then again they always are aren't they or you wouldn't be telling the story or you wouldn't have been arrested but um the USDA was involved lots of people lots of players uh no real drugs are found uh they did an airport sweep and listed me up for like an ounce of something and a false passport or two the money I had just disappeared into pockets but those when I arrived there I felt so free I knew this identity was good I just like floating on air really I slipped out of my protective mode you know that when we stick to the plan and all right you don't want to leave I should have even stayed there for six months just get some sensible view of the world but I I didn't uh and as I went to the airport I could see they were all around me and I melted back into the crowd and disappeared again I thought well that serves me right for changing that attitude I'd had from back in super max and I just glaze over concentrate on the details which I needed to do because when I went to make a phone call later at the travel agency uh waiting it was so depressing being thrown into the Thai prison and I had some idea what they'd be like um people I'd known had been arrested there I knew this much it never won a case you never get out well you get out and what were they arresting you for was it the the uh the passport um what did the the the money wasn't I mean what did they leave 4 000 or something like that right and there are airports we put um I saw the guy walking in with it in a plastic bag you know whatever people throw on the floor before they go through security there was a bit of hash this usual bits of weed but what they really wanted was um this 25 grams of heroin because that would finish me off a policeman um Australian one said was that yours yeah yeah sure it was he said I didn't think so what would you be carrying around that for I mean if it was 10 kilos I might understand but but that was enough the death penalty and was it yours no no no so where where would that come from if you do they do a sweep every afternoon at five o'clock they get tons of it right I get you know nervous passengers go up and then they change their minds and they throw it in the toilet too and were they just did do you think they believed it was yours or do you think they were just going this is we need to give him this bit no no I think they were using it hoping to that would be good to hold and maybe they could get something else find out what I was up to who I was seeing because I had met um somebody who's whose uncle was a big player right so there was there was I think they were optimistic there might be more Camp come out of it but but there wasn't but what difference did it make and I wasn't really worried about um those drugs or the death penalty I wanted to die anyway frankly my first escape plans from there had this I imagine getting out to find the Privacy to kill myself right I wanted to go to the dusa Tony Hotel I knew Which floor and where to get onto the roof I'd taken photographs from there many years before um they were you simply couldn't get a moment's piece dormitories with 150 guys in them screaming all night um we can't even take a crap in peace in the Thai prison We're Not Afraid though of what killing myself well no I mean I don't know being brutalized by the guards or the inmates so well I knew enough about Thailand to to know that it was a little more comic than than bad there were very bad things happen they used to um they've beaten people a couple of people get beaten to death every day there but it's a very big prison we have to get that in proportion I only wish they wouldn't use the food trolley to take the dead bodies out because um you know they don't clean them up um and could you speak the language or were you quite it was a quite different communication uh not really uh and the few languages that uh pitch up in my travels I always found that even if you know them it's better to pretend you don't okay um because they'll talk about you behind your back you know certainly didn't live it on there was I I just couldn't see any point I'd gone to such elaborate precautions on this trip um it just shouldn't have happened and I even got away from the airport and still it happened oh all that confidence that I'll figure a way out I didn't care anymore I just had enough um and I remember seeing an old guy there if you had to go to court they put change on you and um you'd line up on the ground now this old guy I was looking at him because I don't know why a big soundtrack went past he had the presence of mind to push his head under that sand truck and oh it twisted it around popped like a watermelon being dropped on the ground oh my God guys very annoyed told the trustees to get that thing away out of sight was that nice thing called it I thought you Brave bastard you yeah you've got the guts to do that was it not quite a disturbing thing to witness no it was shocking because if you haven't seen it kind of thing up close and I happen to be looking um it was uh but that that's how I felt about it but I was saved In The End by a con man and people say a lot of bad things about economy they do yes they do and they uh you can't be trusted uh they are rottenness and they will cheat you just because they're the Scorpion that's in their nature uh but sometimes they're just what you need and this rather smooth um Bostonian American um who spoke Thai and really knew his way around and I you know I thought the somewhere in this huge prison there'd be an enclave of rich and corrupt foreigners with loads of money and there'd be luxuries it wasn't there was nobody of any importance in there you know a couple of big sacrifices had been made but um a couple of very rich policemen who were in the hospital in intensive care but other than that it was it was just um the people who reached the absolute bottom Drifters in Asia who did run after run and then got sacrificed to the machine they'd get about four jobs a big Syndicate there operating careers had run four times bang they'd shot them to the police they'd be gone oh God they will turn told the same story and it was Joe it was this guest house it was such and such identical and um and and at this point had you been sentenced to death had you received oh no no no I I was trying to avoid that yeah once I came to my senses because the the Boston con had so many wonderful schemes medical thing to get me bail and know some way of a escape with a go to court I get snatched from there I had villains come over and and scope out the court too because there was a way I thought of getting out of there from the lift that took you up to the the building uh snatched from the middle as you go down changed into a different set of clothes but they all got scared thing about um some of our most loved uh and fearless villains they're pretty good in the local manner but you throw them into a place like that where people carry machine guns and shoot at will just for the hell of it not so confident they like the upper edge of being snakes um so I couldn't convince anybody to really help and it was just as well um and two and a half years passed there in this prison it's a long time it was I sort of perked up a little bit pulled myself together started exercising um got a couple of ATM cards over hadn't my favorite god um he was in charge of the the building bought myself a room renovated um so you had you bought a room within the prison that was just for you rented that's rented right you know and is that an official thing that you're allowed to do right there are places in the world where it's official right but you had an influx of money that you could pay for special treats you could survive there on um less than 500 pounds a month and be king oh wow was this the 70s or the 80s now by the way we're into um 90 495 19 the 495 because what's reported about you is that during the 80s you were a multi-millionaire um is that accurate um now what do we call a multi-millionaires a young halfway with a million and a quarter on a glass coffee table and looks around the living room and thinks I've got to get a sofa one of these days um oh goes to the car auctions in the morning buys a big yank tank with a 427 Chevy engine in it um drives it around makes his own car parking spaces you know we're smashing the front in backing the other one pushing the other cars out of the way um oh stoned off my head most of the time uh if I wasn't stunned enough I'd take a few mandracks just to colludes icing on the cake um so I didn't take care of the money and the money didn't take care of me so I guess I'm like the reason I the reason I asked was because it must have been quite a stark change going from a very rich existence to basically somewhere where you basically couldn't pay for anything initially and it was a very poor existence but I guess from what you're saying there it's not like you felt like you were Rich at the time um I've made that contrast a few times when I had my first big arrest I couldn't as I was in a cold near lightless cell of blue stone and horse hair mattress about two inches thick and wrecking a piss I would think back to the night before when I had my important to tell in huge bed and Irish linen sheets and swimming pool out there and um and we had to kind of shake off the contrast but that rubber banding must must have been hard to take because it's you're going from basically the aspiration of almost everyone where you're talking about just buying cars outright and having a swimming pool to a piss stinking bed you know it must be it was you know it's odd thing about it was providing I could see a way out a work a way out I didn't so much mind oh okay um I really trained myself to expect my whatever world I built up and and this happened several times I've done it five times had a new identity New Life new surroundings even new people and dang they're gone and every time it got worse um and there was even Thailand was desperately important because even though it was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it um you know I was somebody that nobody minded killing um so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah there's nothing like the prospect of being executed by a machine gun which is the way they did it God is that what it would have been wow yeah you know oh they'd have three guards all with a bit of string on the trigger and they'd all pull it once so that none of them could be condemned in the Buddhist sense of sin oh they don't even actually right I see it caused the bullet that finished you off oh I see so you're in the Thai prison you've been sentenced to uh rather unpleasant death penalty um how did you start coming up with this famous plan for escaping um desperation it was the last plan that looked like it was going to work um there were probably about 20 plans considered um everything from being the prison held I've since found out it holds 22 000 people oh my God in 10 sub prisons uh there's a women's section there's a young offenders there's a special reminder a drug unit all of that um just a wild place it has everything it even had a prisoner-run shop where you could extract you could borrow money against your account and cash anyway um one of the plans involved being welded into a VW Combi van in the prisons Auto Workshop which would be picked up early Monday morning and I'd be driven out and that another one was um there were several courtroom ones and you couldn't just pay your way out no no it's just you could pay to have a mobile phone which in those days was a rare thing but they were around um you could pay for a bottle of clong uh whiskey you could pay I'm sure you could pay to get a a girl in your room if you could work out what a room was that a whole section full of ladyboys there and got a building full of them they used to open it up on Saturdays so um you could pay for anything but not to leave they couldn't cover that and they couldn't trust each other you would need 25 30 different guards paid off and and the gods of visitors I mean too many guides no that wouldn't work and they looked at it as a kind of betrayal only if I saw two escapes attempts there one group of uh straight kids and a Singaporean got out of their cell incredibly turned themselves into the sleeping God when they'd all lied to each other about what they didn't have you know the ropes and ways out because they're it was so outraged that they'd spoiled the guys jobs they beat them to death slowly tortured them over three months to death having put them in little code lockers the soy they call them drag them out in elephant chains every day and batter them senseless uh internal bleeding usually did it um look I've got a bowl of rice and a painting to poo in that was it um even the water was it was just too horrible so if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off even my Swedish friends Sten the Viking he backed out at the last minute I couldn't get people to go with me all the other plants had fallen to bits because they depended on other people I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars and I needed equipment for that and here's a really important point I guess as bad as this world is you've got to try to find good people if you ask somebody if you asked your friend yeah and and you're finished you'll manage to get a phone call and say friend it's been here um I need you to get um I don't know four hacksaw blades and cut them into the dowel rods of a of a poster and then paint it all up and send it in a huge package with this that cable ties gaffer tape but disguise all that how many people are going to do it turn around wouldn't believe it Ben called me what his neck yeah he's screwed but anyway he wouldn't believe but he wants me to do this that now people don't do it but Michael on the other hand our business partner wouldn't even let me explain he hadn't heard from me in 18 months he said David don't explain I'm sure we could get cut off tell me the important part now where do I have to be and what do I have to bring no that's a friend um and so I've always tried to do the same for the others that I've known like that um but um I did get the equipment together that I needed and everything um about escapes from a big prison is not like your hope it's going to be you know I turned it out walked around the streets and it had streets inside it um and timed it with my trusty Casio and it was so I knew roughly how long it would take to get me but the night's a different world I'm a prisoner I'm only used to noise during the day even the fan chopping around in the Cell at night it's so quiet everything I did squeaked and rattled and twisted I came across a panel that had to be a nail had to come out and that and they'll protest it and scream their wrench out of the way it took um uh seven or eight worlds uh sorry seven or eight walls to cross over I say worlds because they really were every building was a different thing and I got lost and I went past the terminal AIDS Ward that building hundreds of guys all die and I could smell it before I got there because this necrotic Rotting Flesh and I couldn't resist looking in I'm carrying this huge long ladder made out of bamboo poles and fake picture frames gaffer taped along the center [Music] um and I looked up and I saw all these little faces in the Moonlight wrapped in so much pain and despair they didn't have the energy to cry out to the guards if they'd been in any other prisoners they would have the trustees there were absolute scum of the earth had whistled little uniforms sell the drugs one day and the rest of the guys for it the next all of that um and it was only by um well I only got to the outer wall by Dawn and if somebody had been with me I wouldn't have made it either you wouldn't have no imagine I've taken all night to get there and at each point where this something was unexpected I've had to dream up something and I get a little basic toolkit and I sometimes I'd have to sacrifice part of my ladder to make a hook to pull down barbed wire and the technique for using the thing was awkward you had to prop it walk up drop down the other side so you're twisting over the walls like that manual is entirely barbed wire so I had to go underneath it covered in mud the the last one was really too high and there was a Mars bar Creek the the moat that ran around I did you know if I was with somebody else we'd be arguing wouldn't we oh Spa Creek oh it was full of turds bombing around it was caught out of the sewer yeah you did ask um illustrative okay we're just gonna take a quick break from the show to talk about a sponsor of this episode better help better help is an online Counseling Service which connects people to therapists and counselors I'm joined by one of our producers bryony is counseling something you've had experience with do you know what it's interesting because when I was growing up the same kind of challenges in life would happen but people wouldn't necessarily go to therapy or talk about therapy and I feel like since uh maybe my late teens early 20s people are starting to go to therapy and talking about it and I have definitely used it in my life and it's been massively beneficial same and do you because I think one of the things that people often mistake they think it's just for big things yeah but what's the other experience of that thing I think life always throws you know small challenges and large challenges and sometimes the big things need talking about but actually you know starting a new school or starting a new job can rile up that same level of anxiety and it's just really helpful to be able to talk to someone about it who is completely impartial not involved in your life and just kind of a safe space I guess to just say whatever you want to say you completely agree as the world's largest therapy service better help as much 3 million people with professionally licensed and vetted therapists available 100 online plus it's affordable just fill out a brief questionnaire to match with a therapist if things aren't clicking you can easily switch to a new therapist anytime it couldn't be simpler no waiting rooms no traffic no endless searching for the right therapist learn more and save 10 of your first month at betterhelp.com minutes with that's betterhelp help help.com minutes with um now there was one way of oh Beyond marsburg create this a foot and a half of land before this huge huge wall you've got to get a ladder that's too heavy to carry too imbalanced to do anything with but you've got a bit of rope how do you get it to the other side of Mars bar which has all got tangled barb wire in that so it'll catch get it in place and up against the wall when you've got no ground to to walk on now there is a way and uh I guess people have to listen to me describe it either to you or in my book okay fine but too long to tell here sure but um I could see the glow of dawn as I got to the top which had electricity running through it too just to make it the top of the wall dead yeah yeah wow but um my friend who um was in there a bit of a technician is to belong to the anarchist Society in in Britain how would you belong to a society that has rules when you anyway putting that aside he did tell me that it would only be 240 volts but to be careful um and just managed to get over that and because the original plan was to um oh there was an outer moat beyond that of 20 meters I had my clothes ready to go into a plastic bag swim the moat but just as well I didn't um because all it turned out all the guards houses were over the other side of that moat this would not be a place to go but I cleaned myself up threw some clothes on and I one of the jobs that I didn't do but I was supposed to be doing was working in the Umbrella Factory so I paid a local boy to do it um I've got a pop-up umbrella from there I thought you know you really get a perspective about I want to just simple discrimination but being an outsider a foreigner the way sometimes people feel picked upon you know we were called the white trash and we were in in Chains and everything so I knew I had to cover my face in the popular did it and I managed to get to a place where a passport was hidden and to the airport and still had a working ATM card to get me out of the country into Singapore so did you end up with the umbrella did you walk out the front gate yeah I did I had some long trousers on now in their prisoners are not allowed to wear them so I had some khaki pants I thought they might as I walked around the the narrow path to the front gate it's still mote but a little Bridge I thought another figure it's a guard arriving late and sneaking in and I did I felt like Ripley an alien uh looking at thinking lucky lucky this is where it all ends doesn't it and I'm thinking that every moment and looking up and there was just enough light rain to justify the umbrella yeah I would learn later that was actually the not a rain from the gods but the spittle of their laughter because they had worse things in mind for me later on I mean it's so it's you know how many people are you aware how many people had escaped from that prison up to that point was it some every year or was it very infrequent none um the ties sometimes ran away when they were doing the gardens in Chains outside but Escape From Within um I'd known of in 20 years people could recall two attempts no foreigners um and they didn't trust the foreigners that's why they put you on the third floor right quite rightly yes and and how long had it taken you from like the beginning of the uh I started cutting at um 11 45 I paid a lot to get a light switch in there normally the lights are on all the time um okay and I said to my favorite guard oh yeah Ponting or whatever his name was I can't sleep with that thing I'll put a light switch in um um now they didn't say it as corruption or bribe taking they thought I'm doing this nice guy a favor and I'll be lucky because of it that's a very big thing over there you know if I get caught I'm unlucky then so they can batter me to death I mean sure it's kind of self-justifies any action that a human being might take so he started cutting around eight for 11 45 11 45 okay it's quite close through one bar by two in the morning oh God stencia listen we'll go on the next note I looked around and Kevin the American from Hawaii I didn't even know this was happening uh Mirage the Indian I know he's going to talk the next morning he was kakaria LA pantaloni right in the cell never mind holding out and not saying anything he would have it would have been finished I never would have made it and I guess I could have seen the missing bars potentially but I learned later on I actually caught up with somebody who was in there Scottish guy um he was there for selling ecstasy to the Two well-off Sons and Daughters of wealthy policemen anyway um he remembers they the guards couldn't figure that I'd left oh um he said David they ran around the the prison calling out your name it was Daniel Westlake while I was there Daniel Daniel they okay that somebody drew their attention to the cut bar in there yeah my Scottish friend said they the gods wanted they thought that okay he's got out he's angry about something uh Daniel but he's not actually he'll never get out he couldn't get it they never found the the ladder down the front wall until much much later so for um uh uh only one of them said oh we better check the airport they sent a couple of guys down there um just a little bit late and you were gone by then only just and remember man you've got a passport from a Chinese connection that you barely know but kind of like the cut of his jib but are you gonna put your life on the line on that and at every moment you're handing it over you know like the look of it yeah they don't like the look of it they're typing it up and you're thinking they got onto the computer have they done that bit uh have they entered my arrival was this I knew it was freshly stolen or sold off was only a few weeks old uh I mean not new was had only gone missing a few weeks earlier so it was still good but very nerve-wracking and I didn't have a photo I had to use my old um uh radio operators license that had a photograph in it to get reproduced into this thing so it was a bit grainy um and even on the plane it was delay and takeoff oh God and a mumbling Captain oh sorry um we we have a thing with one passenger I just asked what thing exactly soon enough thwomp doors to manual oh but I've got an hour you know looking at this passport I don't like it get to Singapore but I make it through so you got to Singapore yeah but you did end up going back to prison not a Thai prison but a different prison he's suggesting uh I did something wrong well I'm hoping you're going to tell me um no well okay uh I didn't stay in Singapore long because um I sat there in the hotel room unable to digest food not prepared by my own cook sure I in the hotel room in Singapore I realized you could work out who had left that day if they'd flown my air by simply going to the airport and children you work it out yourselves at home you check everybody who's left separate the foreigners hmm go a step further let's keep the Canadian and American the British the Australian New Zealand all the English-speaking passport Society um just to you know reduce the numbers take those names check with the embassies any of these names belong to lost or stolen passports that have been reported yeah five of them because that's Bangkok you know not the only Mischief maker there but nonetheless um they probably knew I could be who was I Charles McClintock hmm sorry Charles I had to borrow your passport but it was an essential cause but you're not wanted anymore of course are you no but I did get an unwelcome knock at the door some years ago uh by the police who um would it be to go excuse me Westminster Court known for the terrorist cases extradition or parking fights wow I'd lift the car anywhere lately so it was going to be one of the other two and it was extradition to Thailand I fought that case for two years and um it was difficult um but managed to effectively win in the end so the ties have dropped that one and I can't be taken back there I'm not wanted anywhere um I can nobody can do what they want but um I I'm not I haven't got anything pending I'm not in business I'm a bit cautious I even got sent something in the the mail a few years ago and I thought it was some gift from some halfway ambitious wombat in in Pakistan sending me a bit of dope thinking oh yeah there's a gift you might like that connection made no I mean people had my address all around the world ever since Danny Dyer um it turned out to be more complicated than that but um very dangerous for me to walk into a courtroom so I don't even imagine you're me and knock at the door oh here's something for you Ben you don't like the look of it you refuse it you're in court no matter why did you refuse that was it your name no you was up The Jig was up proof ladies and gentlemen oh you accept it ah you accepted it proof ladies and gentlemen wife saying to me Jeanette and whom I met in Pakistan years ago and she was there to fish out her husband on a two-ton hash deal he didn't make it anyway um she said throw the thing away I'm thinking in court again ladies and gentlemen he threw the stuff away I can't win so very cautious about all that kind of stuff um fair enough but I take it you won't be going for a holiday to Thailand anytime soon I didn't think so okay so how many do you know off the top of your head of your life how many years of your life have you spent in prison ultimately I did add it up once I'm 66 now and I suppose I've spent um but 22 years the thing that occurs to me and I met you before and I thought the same thing is like you obviously extremely intelligent extremely resourceful it can't be well but well anyway but do you regret the choices you made in terms of do you see those 22 years in prison as something you had no control over it's just the way the dice rolled or do you see them as a mistake on your part um worse than a mistake mistake suggest you didn't know uh where you were going wrong I was taking those steps into uh of a precipice that I'd defied there is no gravity I said I said I will work out something before I hit the ground um when I was It was kind of in stages when I was young it was just arrogance and and showing off and later on when everything was destroyed it was kind of I'd scraped away all of my life and would just go on um then in the third stage it was escaping away from places rebuilding up and being weakened every time it was taken away again um and do I regret it yeah I'm sure I um no you know some people say oh yeah but David just smuggled everything on Earth you scumbag you you know um think of the lives you've destroyed and the people you've heard ah and I go to start to explain that it's not quite black and white uh I mean I've had drug habits myself that I've carelessly allowed um but I thought what's the point anything I say we just sound like self-justification so well don't listen to me then you know but things that have happened that have taught me a lot it's interesting you say that because one of a lot of the comments on our well on the first video we did a lot of the comments where people saying someone needs to make a movie about this guy but a lot of the other comments were people saying he's so charismatic and likable but he must be a really dangerous person to have been involved with all these worlds for so long and um we've interviewed a couple of drug smugglers and I would say they're the ones that I've met have been the ones that probably are more someone you'd see is traditionally quite an obviously dangerous person you come across as very Charming charismatic roguish where do you see yourself on that scale do you see yourself as someone who was dangerous or do you see yourself as someone who's just moved from area to area as it occurred um kind of like this a dangerous I suppose what most people see that and you know if somebody was a problem for me would I find the best option to have them killed or not but really there always was a kind of Vestige of that's a failure if you can't think of anything better than to have them killed then then then what are you doing there's a million clever ways of solving your problems and that besides which there's always going to be people you can't kill everybody um not only that who killed the killers that you've got to do the killing you know you know they always say that about the quiet ones and all of that but it was the people who bothered to put up a smoke screen um they're establishing a um later Alibi a courtroom personality but I met him he didn't seem bothered by all of that why would he have him killed and those are the ones that um seem to be more dangerous and if I was such a dangerous person like that I certainly been absolute fool to break from that mold and say otherwise wouldn't it very true David it's great to see you again thank you so much for coming in always a pleasure yeah and I've Got a Feeling we'll be seeing you again at some point as well it's possible it does may cross thank you I'll be like oh my God they're in my head they they know they know that was a song and so they put that song on the radio and it's all everything revolves around me or you know and this happened well sometimes happens today you know I'm I'm thinking of someone in my head someone under there like on the street	um now what do we call a multi-millionaires a young halfway with a million and a quarter on a glass coffee table and looks around the living room and thinks I've got to get a sofa one of these days um oh goes to the car auctions in the morning buys a big yank tank with a 427 Chevy engine in it um drives it around makes his own car parking spaces you know we're smashing the front in backing the other one pushing the other cars out of the way um oh stoned off my head most of the time uh if I wasn't stunned enough I'd take a few mandracks just to colludes icing on the cake um so I didn't take care of the money and the money didn't take care of me so I guess I'm like the reason I the reason I asked was because it must have been quite a stark change going from a very rich existence to basically somewhere where you basically couldn't pay for anything initially and it was a very poor existence but I guess from what you're saying there it's not like you felt like you were Rich at the time um I've made that contrast a few times when I had my first big arrest I couldn't as I was in a cold near lightless cell of blue stone and horse hair mattress about two inches thick and wrecking a piss I would think back to the night	-2	4	-5	um now what do we call a multi-millionaires a young halfway with a million and a quarter on a glass coffee table and looks around the living room and thinks I've got to get a sofa one of these days um oh goes to the car auctions in the morning buys a big yank tank with a 427 Chevy engine in it um drives it around makes his own car parking spaces you know we're smashing the front in backing the other one pushing the other cars out of the way um oh stoned off my head most of the time uh if I wasn't stunned enough I'd take a few mandracks just to colludes icing on the cake um so I didn't take care of the money and the money didn't take care of me	I guess I'm like the reason I the reason I asked was because it must have been quite a stark change going from a very rich existence to basically somewhere where you basically couldn't pay for anything initially and it was a very poor existence but I guess from what you're saying there it's not like you felt like you were Rich at the time	2,6,3	0,4,5	2	6	3	0	4	5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyZyHHexx7s	4,101	oyZyHHexx7s	2022-12-07 00:00:00	even though I was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off I couldn't get people to go with me I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars [Music] it's great to have you back David obviously we've met before but for anyone who doesn't know who you are for new listeners or new viewers could you give us a brief introduction to what you are famous for well I suppose uh most well known for uh having escaped to prison in Thailand in Bangkok uh the biggest one they have there clong Prim it uh wasn't something I did frivolously I was going to be executed within a couple of weeks so it seemed like a good time to leave okay now um we're going to get into that in a bit more detail but one thing that I remember about you from last time is you're the most incredible talker and we took away the inter the initial interview we've done with you and ended up having to make it into two long episodes because you have a lot of different very colorful uh experiences so do forgive me if I Jimmy us through oh no I can understand that I mean the only place I never talk is in the police station I always like some of my uh work colleagues took um what was it one slap to get them talking but five to shut them up oh okay so let's go right back to the beginning um you were born in the UK and then I believe you emigrated to Australia well um it was all a family thing yes I was born in basewater in London I spent the first few years of my life then uh there but my parents broke up divorced and I went with my mother to Australia with my older sister so I don't have any really very early memories of London apart from some old eight millimeter movie footage of me learning to walk in Hyde Park my dad was waving a five pound note in front of my face and I was making every effort to grab it I continued that behavior for many many years afterwards returned to Australia um finished some schooling um got really contrasting jobs I worked in an adult Agency for a while um but also before that I was got a job in a cinema now it was the and under literally an underground place but it was there that I got introduced to a bunch of crooks um some of the girls there had boyfriends that I used to run down with um strange boxes or bits of money or fur coats and then wink at me bolt out the back door pursued by often policemen undercover ones of course whom we'd misdirect somewhere but that Circle they were um safe crackers and they really didn't trust Outsiders and didn't much like the sound of me but because of I demonstrated a couple of things by being look everybody was really very anti-authority then I I don't mean hostile but for people now they they wouldn't have experienced that in the uh late 60s 70s we were so snotty and arrogant we really thought we were going to change the world and that um the laws were all nothing and the way to change them was to break them well that was the kind of vanity we had so um when I got to know the safe crackers uh better there was something really interesting I mean I didn't like the idea you know stealing things seemed a bit tacky but on the other hand they kind of all needed the money from the from their backgrounds and everything but that wasn't so much the the interest it was the technicalities of getting into these things okay um they used to drill through the top um having anchored it with the drill with clamps and and put a kind of little lens inside a cystoscope used in medicine and watch the the wheels turning around this is the old kind of old-fashioned Hollywood style it was yeah and um behind the safe were three discs and you had to line them up and they'd once they got in they'd take the door with them so that the opposition the safe makers wouldn't know how they'd got in and it was a a constant battle between the manufacturers and them because they've come across new safes which had Special Metals in it that was mixed like a a crunchy nut bar very hard metals very soft ones so the drill bit would slip on them snap and you got a sense that this was almost like a game where um they would try something then try to beat them and they were very loyal to each other um they they never spoke out of school as it were um when I got involved with them I'd only have to if I had trouble I don't have to make one phone call and people would appear out of nowhere and I thought yeah this this is kind of better than the treacherous boys school that I I grew up in and how old were you at this point um 19 years old 19. so were you thinking you were making a conscious decision to move into illegal activities or at that point in time and at that point in the world did it feel like more of a kind of a bit of roguish fun would you say I was drawn to it anyway because it was interesting and um I didn't really have a lot of fear I think sometimes what we do or don't do is depending on how scary it seems yeah agreed um I was born with a low resting heart rate as they say you know if it's below 70 you're a risk taker I don't know why that is when the safe crackers retired they put some of their money into growing little crops of weed and so on but profit margin is is only through importing because like the price difference is cheap in the source countries expensive where it sells so because they couldn't do it they were almost throwing it down like a challenge like we don't know anybody who can do this and I thought well I traveled a lot um I didn't think it was going to be impossible um I thought the odds were in my phone and I looked it up I went to the library and sort of researched it a bit and where were you thinking which country Well they um they were very keen to get some um hashish from India or Nepal or somewhere okay I could see um it's bulky and there's packing problems so um they funded me and off I sailed now the operation my first operation was so deplorably bad I'm barely 20 years old I my cunning plan which involved a big piece of exported Machinery which had weights in it so the weights would come out the cash would go in it would weigh the same being returned and it was a piece of Television equipment or something that went South immediately when I didn't realize that I would have to pay a huge deposit in duty to even bring it in as a demo machine so forget that I ended up in short meeting a guy in a money exchange section of a bank I was there because I ran out and I had to send asking for more from the boys and I met him and he wasn't involved in any of this but he soon became that just he managed to get me six kilos of hash I took the 1952 ancient Grundig radio from his parents house the Shelf there guttered the thing like a fish wrapped it up and he had to get cling film in those days think of this before you travel arriving with a suitcase full of cling film doesn't look good I suppose but uh wedged it in there and then just flew back to Sydney now you can imagine what happened well just before we get on to what happened you know one thing that strikes me is what year was would this have been this was uh 77 77 so it's amazing think that back then if someone was going to India for the first time now they could go on Google Maps they could research it or they could find out who they could find phone numbers contacts they could be put in contact with people before they've even set off whereas you must have at that age at that time been going in slightly blind you know touching down in a foreign country that you didn't know well no contacts was that not quite daunting well what was more um troubling with um how everything would fail and then I'd have to um you know come up with another plan what context somebody I knew um um there were no bank robber who joined the hare krishnas and fled to India right and I had his name and and the ashram in Delhi where where he was was supposed to have been uh I didn't really catch up with him on that trip but okay sure so so then you get back to Australia with your radio that is now full to the brim with and I get stopped you you did get stopped okay I could stop because uh I'm I'm on a British passport um and it's the only trip I've ever done and I'm that age I'd stop me oh fatherly type was at the Customs desk now the the systems were different in those days um it was Sydney too which is very and certainly was very relaxed back then right he opened the suitcase uh there was nothing in there except a pair of socks there's a towel wrapping up this massive radio which he lifted up so it was buckled at the sides little red packets poking out oh it smelled like a hedgehog for a patchouliers okay not much of a disguise um he let me go he uh put it back looked around to make sure that none of his workmates were watching him being so soft um and then turned to me and said you're going back there you're going to do this again [Music] all right you can take your we'll call it a radio shall we get out of here what he thought I realized later was that he didn't want the whole grammar of the day arresting me filling out papers and it would have been a a long time plus I guess being a dad he thought if I he's obviously an idiot you're right if I send him into Gladiator Academy or it wasn't really like that in those days but certainly contact center um the prison what am I doing um well I guess uh he was hopeful you know I whilst out of there must have smuggling me but I experienced then what um I got years later which was kind of a real Downer after you know having got nowhere with The Hare krishnas and and cultivated the shoeshine boys and had my money stolen at Amex uh by some Scallywags in Delhi all sorts of Little Adventures over there in India and nonetheless made it it's kind of like that's all there is to it I I didn't really want to give it to anyone um sort of felt like you didn't have a big moment of no a bit of money that came earlier that's handy right uh I paid back what I owed and settled up for for the next thing so but once that was started when you sorry I interrupted you go oh I was just going to say it to finish it even though they'd funded me the guys were very surprised to see me back but at all at all oh you made it oh because some of them say oh you'll just run away with it uh even if that's what he's doing who knows what he's doing you know and then I could see sitting around you can imagine there's like a table full of well like three guys and then a kind of Darkness shrouded over that room I thought uh it's not valuable enough to kill me you know what what is this mood why did you bring that well that's what you've been talking about yeah you could have loaded that with cane or smack or something you guys we say nothing but terrible things about a class or heavy drugs that don't want to know about it right and I could read then that wait a minute there we're all might be guys together and having fun getting into the safe and whatnot but there was a kind of different it was something a very strong lesson I'd have to be thoughtful about that um there could be times where things didn't work out not necessarily that my safety was at risk I didn't see it that way but I knew that there were Ruthless People right okay yeah so you got an insight into a mindset that had been a bit below the surface it was there I just chose not to see it but um I then went on to you know refine everything and Vary everything and then did you after that first time did you were you still working sort of for them or did you immediately well when you wake up on your own when things um I picked up and there was enough money around out of uh out of strategy rather than just being a nice guy I gave my partners a kind of thank you bonus from the next thing that I did but I did that all myself right so it was almost like a yeah separation and I wanted to go back to the my hippie friends anyway they were a little less it wasn't that they were scary but but that didn't last because they were maybe friends might be all right but they will certainly careless and stupid but from from that point onwards after that initial Journey was that you then into the world of smuggling I thought this won't last forever you only need one setback and that changes it I probably made quite a lot of money and I could have got out but and I should have gotta you know I have couriers a leak from one of the the couriers brought the police to me and here was the problem with it it was at first I scattered now I was married to my first wife then clearly Italian girl her dad had restaurants I grabbed her I had a secret drawer with extra passports in it some money ended up four plane Journeys later in um off the Bahamas had the skipper of a day rent yacht and take me out to an island and nobody had ever been on before it was empty sat there on a towel I thought hmm the level of surveillance I had means it's quite a big operation they're funded and I checked with a lawyer before the bigger the money they spent the more determined they'll be stay away or go back I mean I don't know why would anybody do this uh well I wasn't broke um I didn't have to there was no pressure on me the more I went through the problems the more attractive the whole thing is uh she didn't like it much well again do you think because it was a puzzle to be solved because um arrogance really we've gone from basically someone who was kind of mildly interested in making a group of people meeting a group of um safe hackers to someone who pulled off their first thing and then we've jumped to someone who has people working for them and and now is no longer taking the risk themselves now the police are on to you and you're on this desert island well small island and you're thinking about going back into it was this like a turning point in your life in terms of going you know because the other option I suppose was to go straight but were you just more it was that just not an option for you I'd gone to my lawyer Ralph he said look this is what I picked up because I my travel agent had tipped me to a couple of detectives that come in he traveled again while I was in on the phone okay uh actually they're all innocent really yeah you know and and gave him a long list of names um they wanted travel details for and a telephone number which I traced uh to um a private office building which had been rented by state and federal police they were so distrusting of their own they didn't want to even run this thing from um regular police headquarters my lawyer said well what you sure it's you said Ralph look at the list of names there's 30 there I'm 26 of them passports are a lot easier to get back then than there now so you had 26 aliases that you were traveling on yeah right okay um and I described where they were he said David they are funded well they're not bear this in mind but although I what they won't get me with anything they're funded you think they're going to walk away after a year and say oh sorry boss you spend a million dollars and uh nothing doing they don't work like that but this is how stubborn I was I thought because he said the only thing you can do is disappear for at least a couple of years and then you can come back if that's what you want and of course I had justifications for it I thought okay I'll I'll build up a bit more money and then I'll disappear but um it was only after things went terribly badly that I realized I shouldn't play like this anymore what it was they um because the challenge just kept coming so now so did you go back to Australia I went back to Australia and and when I retired within three months right but they weren't waiting for you to arrest you or no no they wanted they wanted something solid okay [Music] um I won't go into the long machinations of it all but um somebody we knew uh was getting things from a Thai Courier and he got arrested he sold us out to the police so that that The Courier would now come to us and I always have some solid evidence right he would bring things but we got away with that because that was another challenge but the police got tired of all this arrested me no drugs of course so it was a difficult case the worst kind of case is that where there's no solid evidence and in a way it's better to go to court where you've got a Smoking Gun and a dead body on the ground because at least you know where you are but where there's nothing tangible and it's conspiracies and this was a huge trial six months long what is that 119 Witnesses 6 000 pages of uh telephone intercept massive thing won't made it worse too and I think this was um would change things for me um the pressure was put on for confessions but it'd be silly to confess and you can't confess on somebody else's behalf can you that's not nice um lots of the family were arrested even my mother was taken and it went oh wow just to put pressure on uh did she know what you did oh she had an idea right okay I mean I used to have bin liners full of money I'd leave behind the fridge yeah you don't get that in the cinema do you not done not a very good day you know uh because they arrested so many people now when they arrested our wives and my business partner Michael his wife just had a baby it was we had to do a deal here I didn't want to but I was going to say I said to Michael look I know you don't like it but we'll play to it get the girls out of trouble we'll Escape that's a good challenge that way [Music] um but unfortunately um the intelligence section put an arsonist Informer in with the girls to get some information her fire was lit uh burnt down the women's prison and my wife and my business partner's wife was were killed uh that's awful and so the Informer that they put in there yeah why did they pick an arsonist for Daniel writer name was I don't know why I remember that after 40 years God so that's quite a big that was oh and and just uh to make things worse the story put about town to scare the careers into talking because they wouldn't speak was that we'd we were killing off all the witnesses and starting with our own family where does that come from um we ended up in a super max prison nightmarish electronic zoo with two inch glass and electronic doors and insane inmates held 48 death rate 27 people a year died in that little supermax going to court in Chains with a SWAT team taking it it was so so much Michael fell to pieces he was just a wreck he didn't make it uh he survived the jail but died when he got out the only way I could survive all of that was to strip away everything I you know I found myself in the supermax concrete everything's concrete the bed everything there's no everything's still just with the tape player from my lure listening to the the tapes the bug tapes the microphones in my house I could play back my life for the last six months clearly you're moving from room to room taking telephone calls she was crying about something I didn't know what I never know and David that's gone immerse yourself in the worst that they have you will not survive this otherwise trial sort of went not so good acquitted of most things but convicted enough 10 years difficult imprisonment but I the only way I could deal with it was to say did I want revenge that was more my fault I brought this about I got her in there I mean a family of a very kind to me about it considering I wouldn't be but it doesn't matter in Chains and super Mech strip it all away it is nothing everyone is a potential enemy everything it just nothing mattered win the day win the night I mean this is a place we had to fill in a book to get some toilet paper the showers were in front of them in a glass box um if you went on a visit they'd zip you up and lock you in a suit so you had no pockets there was after that and her death I felt like there was nothing that could affect me you're wrong about these things you know we're human but I got out and they were there they even visited me to say we'll be on you when you get out the police yeah we enjoyed the old days didn't you yeah I said pretending you know and just to make the point that they were there when I got out um I I'd done a whole lot of Woodwork in the prison in the last place I was at carving intricate things making these really great trick Chinese boxes with beeswax they intercepted the van that was taking it from the prison back to my house and smashed it all to pieces I put it in a box just to say don't think that we will never be here we can do what we want so I decided to leave the country I was um how old am I by then let's work it out yeah uh I started all this Mischief when I was about 18 got arrested at 22. 23 uh um 16 years 17 years either under surveillance or in bad prisons got out and I'm under surveillance again um so how old so you're number 37 about 37. so that's already you know that's a big chunk of Life there but you've lost quite a lot of it to prison or surveillance well at no point now were you like okay and I wasn't a normal person uh really when I got out because of the experience of prison I'd already stripped most of Myself Away to deal with the death of the Superman yeah and and watching people be burnt to death in the place which was frequent somebody had contact glue pulled all over him and then satellite oh God Gods came in and the other one's standing there with a Tire swinging it around to make sure to let him burn let him burn Jesus Barry's name was testicles swollen like apples but black okay he died two hours later in hospital anyway um that was regular account to deal with that I'd already strip things away so when I got a little apartment when I got out and my mother had arranged things for me when they were there when they'd leave rude messages on my answer machine when they'd be behind me everywhere I thought all right I remember this David it never ends if you want to survive go back to the way you were you know in in the super max Anything Can Happen anytime but I didn't want to live like that um I got a fresh passport and most elaborate means um I could spend a week explaining how that came into existence but I went to Thailand to pick up some money I had three days there it was just before Christmas I left at that time on purpose so that they maybe I thought maybe it's their weak point that they want to have families in their life just at Christmas I've parked my mum's car and and left the keys somewhere for her nobody knew were you not meant to leave the country no no no licenses oh I see we're just going to take a minute here to talk about a sponsor of this show which is manscaped we were sent a package to try out by manscaped but Conor one of our producers is already a fan of the brand I believe yeah absolutely I've been using manscape for a little while now and Ben as you know it's that time of year people start asking you what you want for Christmas and I would say that a great gift for a man especially one that might have everything is the manscape performance package 4.0 so what's in that so you get the lawnmower 4.0 electric trimmer you get some anti-chafe boxer shorts which I can vouch for as well as a couple of other grooming products that smell great fantastic well it sounds like a five-star review from uconnor absolutely so Connor you were talking about the performance package there's loads of other great gift ideas such as the hygiene bundle all available at manscape.com com and all gifts that men will genuinely love to receive this Christmas if you are a listener of this podcast you get 20 off and free shipping all you have to do is go to manscape.com and use the code minutes that's manscape.com m-i-n-u-t-e-s minutes um so why are we doing that the risk is it worth it I didn't want to play anymore right I wanted to uh see if I could have a something resembling like a a real life just to find some corner of the world plan was to to return to London and oh so you were leaving forever I'm leaving forever okay I see nobody knew it um I had a couple of hundred thousand in Thailand I thought um which I returned to pick up um now I suppose people say this Crooks always say this most unusual circumstances led to my arrest well they were but then again they always are aren't they or you wouldn't be telling the story or you wouldn't have been arrested but um the USDA was involved lots of people lots of players uh no real drugs are found uh they did an airport sweep and listed me up for like an ounce of something and a false passport or two the money I had just disappeared into pockets but those when I arrived there I felt so free I knew this identity was good I just like floating on air really I slipped out of my protective mode you know that when we stick to the plan and all right you don't want to leave I should have even stayed there for six months just get some sensible view of the world but I I didn't uh and as I went to the airport I could see they were all around me and I melted back into the crowd and disappeared again I thought well that serves me right for changing that attitude I'd had from back in super max and I just glaze over concentrate on the details which I needed to do because when I went to make a phone call later at the travel agency uh waiting it was so depressing being thrown into the Thai prison and I had some idea what they'd be like um people I'd known had been arrested there I knew this much it never won a case you never get out well you get out and what were they arresting you for was it the the uh the passport um what did the the the money wasn't I mean what did they leave 4 000 or something like that right and there are airports we put um I saw the guy walking in with it in a plastic bag you know whatever people throw on the floor before they go through security there was a bit of hash this usual bits of weed but what they really wanted was um this 25 grams of heroin because that would finish me off a policeman um Australian one said was that yours yeah yeah sure it was he said I didn't think so what would you be carrying around that for I mean if it was 10 kilos I might understand but but that was enough the death penalty and was it yours no no no so where where would that come from if you do they do a sweep every afternoon at five o'clock they get tons of it right I get you know nervous passengers go up and then they change their minds and they throw it in the toilet too and were they just did do you think they believed it was yours or do you think they were just going this is we need to give him this bit no no I think they were using it hoping to that would be good to hold and maybe they could get something else find out what I was up to who I was seeing because I had met um somebody who's whose uncle was a big player right so there was there was I think they were optimistic there might be more Camp come out of it but but there wasn't but what difference did it make and I wasn't really worried about um those drugs or the death penalty I wanted to die anyway frankly my first escape plans from there had this I imagine getting out to find the Privacy to kill myself right I wanted to go to the dusa Tony Hotel I knew Which floor and where to get onto the roof I'd taken photographs from there many years before um they were you simply couldn't get a moment's piece dormitories with 150 guys in them screaming all night um we can't even take a crap in peace in the Thai prison We're Not Afraid though of what killing myself well no I mean I don't know being brutalized by the guards or the inmates so well I knew enough about Thailand to to know that it was a little more comic than than bad there were very bad things happen they used to um they've beaten people a couple of people get beaten to death every day there but it's a very big prison we have to get that in proportion I only wish they wouldn't use the food trolley to take the dead bodies out because um you know they don't clean them up um and could you speak the language or were you quite it was a quite different communication uh not really uh and the few languages that uh pitch up in my travels I always found that even if you know them it's better to pretend you don't okay um because they'll talk about you behind your back you know certainly didn't live it on there was I I just couldn't see any point I'd gone to such elaborate precautions on this trip um it just shouldn't have happened and I even got away from the airport and still it happened oh all that confidence that I'll figure a way out I didn't care anymore I just had enough um and I remember seeing an old guy there if you had to go to court they put change on you and um you'd line up on the ground now this old guy I was looking at him because I don't know why a big soundtrack went past he had the presence of mind to push his head under that sand truck and oh it twisted it around popped like a watermelon being dropped on the ground oh my God guys very annoyed told the trustees to get that thing away out of sight was that nice thing called it I thought you Brave bastard you yeah you've got the guts to do that was it not quite a disturbing thing to witness no it was shocking because if you haven't seen it kind of thing up close and I happen to be looking um it was uh but that that's how I felt about it but I was saved In The End by a con man and people say a lot of bad things about economy they do yes they do and they uh you can't be trusted uh they are rottenness and they will cheat you just because they're the Scorpion that's in their nature uh but sometimes they're just what you need and this rather smooth um Bostonian American um who spoke Thai and really knew his way around and I you know I thought the somewhere in this huge prison there'd be an enclave of rich and corrupt foreigners with loads of money and there'd be luxuries it wasn't there was nobody of any importance in there you know a couple of big sacrifices had been made but um a couple of very rich policemen who were in the hospital in intensive care but other than that it was it was just um the people who reached the absolute bottom Drifters in Asia who did run after run and then got sacrificed to the machine they'd get about four jobs a big Syndicate there operating careers had run four times bang they'd shot them to the police they'd be gone oh God they will turn told the same story and it was Joe it was this guest house it was such and such identical and um and and at this point had you been sentenced to death had you received oh no no no I I was trying to avoid that yeah once I came to my senses because the the Boston con had so many wonderful schemes medical thing to get me bail and know some way of a escape with a go to court I get snatched from there I had villains come over and and scope out the court too because there was a way I thought of getting out of there from the lift that took you up to the the building uh snatched from the middle as you go down changed into a different set of clothes but they all got scared thing about um some of our most loved uh and fearless villains they're pretty good in the local manner but you throw them into a place like that where people carry machine guns and shoot at will just for the hell of it not so confident they like the upper edge of being snakes um so I couldn't convince anybody to really help and it was just as well um and two and a half years passed there in this prison it's a long time it was I sort of perked up a little bit pulled myself together started exercising um got a couple of ATM cards over hadn't my favorite god um he was in charge of the the building bought myself a room renovated um so you had you bought a room within the prison that was just for you rented that's rented right you know and is that an official thing that you're allowed to do right there are places in the world where it's official right but you had an influx of money that you could pay for special treats you could survive there on um less than 500 pounds a month and be king oh wow was this the 70s or the 80s now by the way we're into um 90 495 19 the 495 because what's reported about you is that during the 80s you were a multi-millionaire um is that accurate um now what do we call a multi-millionaires a young halfway with a million and a quarter on a glass coffee table and looks around the living room and thinks I've got to get a sofa one of these days um oh goes to the car auctions in the morning buys a big yank tank with a 427 Chevy engine in it um drives it around makes his own car parking spaces you know we're smashing the front in backing the other one pushing the other cars out of the way um oh stoned off my head most of the time uh if I wasn't stunned enough I'd take a few mandracks just to colludes icing on the cake um so I didn't take care of the money and the money didn't take care of me so I guess I'm like the reason I the reason I asked was because it must have been quite a stark change going from a very rich existence to basically somewhere where you basically couldn't pay for anything initially and it was a very poor existence but I guess from what you're saying there it's not like you felt like you were Rich at the time um I've made that contrast a few times when I had my first big arrest I couldn't as I was in a cold near lightless cell of blue stone and horse hair mattress about two inches thick and wrecking a piss I would think back to the night before when I had my important to tell in huge bed and Irish linen sheets and swimming pool out there and um and we had to kind of shake off the contrast but that rubber banding must must have been hard to take because it's you're going from basically the aspiration of almost everyone where you're talking about just buying cars outright and having a swimming pool to a piss stinking bed you know it must be it was you know it's odd thing about it was providing I could see a way out a work a way out I didn't so much mind oh okay um I really trained myself to expect my whatever world I built up and and this happened several times I've done it five times had a new identity New Life new surroundings even new people and dang they're gone and every time it got worse um and there was even Thailand was desperately important because even though it was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it um you know I was somebody that nobody minded killing um so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah there's nothing like the prospect of being executed by a machine gun which is the way they did it God is that what it would have been wow yeah you know oh they'd have three guards all with a bit of string on the trigger and they'd all pull it once so that none of them could be condemned in the Buddhist sense of sin oh they don't even actually right I see it caused the bullet that finished you off oh I see so you're in the Thai prison you've been sentenced to uh rather unpleasant death penalty um how did you start coming up with this famous plan for escaping um desperation it was the last plan that looked like it was going to work um there were probably about 20 plans considered um everything from being the prison held I've since found out it holds 22 000 people oh my God in 10 sub prisons uh there's a women's section there's a young offenders there's a special reminder a drug unit all of that um just a wild place it has everything it even had a prisoner-run shop where you could extract you could borrow money against your account and cash anyway um one of the plans involved being welded into a VW Combi van in the prisons Auto Workshop which would be picked up early Monday morning and I'd be driven out and that another one was um there were several courtroom ones and you couldn't just pay your way out no no it's just you could pay to have a mobile phone which in those days was a rare thing but they were around um you could pay for a bottle of clong uh whiskey you could pay I'm sure you could pay to get a a girl in your room if you could work out what a room was that a whole section full of ladyboys there and got a building full of them they used to open it up on Saturdays so um you could pay for anything but not to leave they couldn't cover that and they couldn't trust each other you would need 25 30 different guards paid off and and the gods of visitors I mean too many guides no that wouldn't work and they looked at it as a kind of betrayal only if I saw two escapes attempts there one group of uh straight kids and a Singaporean got out of their cell incredibly turned themselves into the sleeping God when they'd all lied to each other about what they didn't have you know the ropes and ways out because they're it was so outraged that they'd spoiled the guys jobs they beat them to death slowly tortured them over three months to death having put them in little code lockers the soy they call them drag them out in elephant chains every day and batter them senseless uh internal bleeding usually did it um look I've got a bowl of rice and a painting to poo in that was it um even the water was it was just too horrible so if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off even my Swedish friends Sten the Viking he backed out at the last minute I couldn't get people to go with me all the other plants had fallen to bits because they depended on other people I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars and I needed equipment for that and here's a really important point I guess as bad as this world is you've got to try to find good people if you ask somebody if you asked your friend yeah and and you're finished you'll manage to get a phone call and say friend it's been here um I need you to get um I don't know four hacksaw blades and cut them into the dowel rods of a of a poster and then paint it all up and send it in a huge package with this that cable ties gaffer tape but disguise all that how many people are going to do it turn around wouldn't believe it Ben called me what his neck yeah he's screwed but anyway he wouldn't believe but he wants me to do this that now people don't do it but Michael on the other hand our business partner wouldn't even let me explain he hadn't heard from me in 18 months he said David don't explain I'm sure we could get cut off tell me the important part now where do I have to be and what do I have to bring no that's a friend um and so I've always tried to do the same for the others that I've known like that um but um I did get the equipment together that I needed and everything um about escapes from a big prison is not like your hope it's going to be you know I turned it out walked around the streets and it had streets inside it um and timed it with my trusty Casio and it was so I knew roughly how long it would take to get me but the night's a different world I'm a prisoner I'm only used to noise during the day even the fan chopping around in the Cell at night it's so quiet everything I did squeaked and rattled and twisted I came across a panel that had to be a nail had to come out and that and they'll protest it and scream their wrench out of the way it took um uh seven or eight worlds uh sorry seven or eight walls to cross over I say worlds because they really were every building was a different thing and I got lost and I went past the terminal AIDS Ward that building hundreds of guys all die and I could smell it before I got there because this necrotic Rotting Flesh and I couldn't resist looking in I'm carrying this huge long ladder made out of bamboo poles and fake picture frames gaffer taped along the center [Music] um and I looked up and I saw all these little faces in the Moonlight wrapped in so much pain and despair they didn't have the energy to cry out to the guards if they'd been in any other prisoners they would have the trustees there were absolute scum of the earth had whistled little uniforms sell the drugs one day and the rest of the guys for it the next all of that um and it was only by um well I only got to the outer wall by Dawn and if somebody had been with me I wouldn't have made it either you wouldn't have no imagine I've taken all night to get there and at each point where this something was unexpected I've had to dream up something and I get a little basic toolkit and I sometimes I'd have to sacrifice part of my ladder to make a hook to pull down barbed wire and the technique for using the thing was awkward you had to prop it walk up drop down the other side so you're twisting over the walls like that manual is entirely barbed wire so I had to go underneath it covered in mud the the last one was really too high and there was a Mars bar Creek the the moat that ran around I did you know if I was with somebody else we'd be arguing wouldn't we oh Spa Creek oh it was full of turds bombing around it was caught out of the sewer yeah you did ask um illustrative okay we're just gonna take a quick break from the show to talk about a sponsor of this episode better help better help is an online Counseling Service which connects people to therapists and counselors I'm joined by one of our producers bryony is counseling something you've had experience with do you know what it's interesting because when I was growing up the same kind of challenges in life would happen but people wouldn't necessarily go to therapy or talk about therapy and I feel like since uh maybe my late teens early 20s people are starting to go to therapy and talking about it and I have definitely used it in my life and it's been massively beneficial same and do you because I think one of the things that people often mistake they think it's just for big things yeah but what's the other experience of that thing I think life always throws you know small challenges and large challenges and sometimes the big things need talking about but actually you know starting a new school or starting a new job can rile up that same level of anxiety and it's just really helpful to be able to talk to someone about it who is completely impartial not involved in your life and just kind of a safe space I guess to just say whatever you want to say you completely agree as the world's largest therapy service better help as much 3 million people with professionally licensed and vetted therapists available 100 online plus it's affordable just fill out a brief questionnaire to match with a therapist if things aren't clicking you can easily switch to a new therapist anytime it couldn't be simpler no waiting rooms no traffic no endless searching for the right therapist learn more and save 10 of your first month at betterhelp.com minutes with that's betterhelp help help.com minutes with um now there was one way of oh Beyond marsburg create this a foot and a half of land before this huge huge wall you've got to get a ladder that's too heavy to carry too imbalanced to do anything with but you've got a bit of rope how do you get it to the other side of Mars bar which has all got tangled barb wire in that so it'll catch get it in place and up against the wall when you've got no ground to to walk on now there is a way and uh I guess people have to listen to me describe it either to you or in my book okay fine but too long to tell here sure but um I could see the glow of dawn as I got to the top which had electricity running through it too just to make it the top of the wall dead yeah yeah wow but um my friend who um was in there a bit of a technician is to belong to the anarchist Society in in Britain how would you belong to a society that has rules when you anyway putting that aside he did tell me that it would only be 240 volts but to be careful um and just managed to get over that and because the original plan was to um oh there was an outer moat beyond that of 20 meters I had my clothes ready to go into a plastic bag swim the moat but just as well I didn't um because all it turned out all the guards houses were over the other side of that moat this would not be a place to go but I cleaned myself up threw some clothes on and I one of the jobs that I didn't do but I was supposed to be doing was working in the Umbrella Factory so I paid a local boy to do it um I've got a pop-up umbrella from there I thought you know you really get a perspective about I want to just simple discrimination but being an outsider a foreigner the way sometimes people feel picked upon you know we were called the white trash and we were in in Chains and everything so I knew I had to cover my face in the popular did it and I managed to get to a place where a passport was hidden and to the airport and still had a working ATM card to get me out of the country into Singapore so did you end up with the umbrella did you walk out the front gate yeah I did I had some long trousers on now in their prisoners are not allowed to wear them so I had some khaki pants I thought they might as I walked around the the narrow path to the front gate it's still mote but a little Bridge I thought another figure it's a guard arriving late and sneaking in and I did I felt like Ripley an alien uh looking at thinking lucky lucky this is where it all ends doesn't it and I'm thinking that every moment and looking up and there was just enough light rain to justify the umbrella yeah I would learn later that was actually the not a rain from the gods but the spittle of their laughter because they had worse things in mind for me later on I mean it's so it's you know how many people are you aware how many people had escaped from that prison up to that point was it some every year or was it very infrequent none um the ties sometimes ran away when they were doing the gardens in Chains outside but Escape From Within um I'd known of in 20 years people could recall two attempts no foreigners um and they didn't trust the foreigners that's why they put you on the third floor right quite rightly yes and and how long had it taken you from like the beginning of the uh I started cutting at um 11 45 I paid a lot to get a light switch in there normally the lights are on all the time um okay and I said to my favorite guard oh yeah Ponting or whatever his name was I can't sleep with that thing I'll put a light switch in um um now they didn't say it as corruption or bribe taking they thought I'm doing this nice guy a favor and I'll be lucky because of it that's a very big thing over there you know if I get caught I'm unlucky then so they can batter me to death I mean sure it's kind of self-justifies any action that a human being might take so he started cutting around eight for 11 45 11 45 okay it's quite close through one bar by two in the morning oh God stencia listen we'll go on the next note I looked around and Kevin the American from Hawaii I didn't even know this was happening uh Mirage the Indian I know he's going to talk the next morning he was kakaria LA pantaloni right in the cell never mind holding out and not saying anything he would have it would have been finished I never would have made it and I guess I could have seen the missing bars potentially but I learned later on I actually caught up with somebody who was in there Scottish guy um he was there for selling ecstasy to the Two well-off Sons and Daughters of wealthy policemen anyway um he remembers they the guards couldn't figure that I'd left oh um he said David they ran around the the prison calling out your name it was Daniel Westlake while I was there Daniel Daniel they okay that somebody drew their attention to the cut bar in there yeah my Scottish friend said they the gods wanted they thought that okay he's got out he's angry about something uh Daniel but he's not actually he'll never get out he couldn't get it they never found the the ladder down the front wall until much much later so for um uh uh only one of them said oh we better check the airport they sent a couple of guys down there um just a little bit late and you were gone by then only just and remember man you've got a passport from a Chinese connection that you barely know but kind of like the cut of his jib but are you gonna put your life on the line on that and at every moment you're handing it over you know like the look of it yeah they don't like the look of it they're typing it up and you're thinking they got onto the computer have they done that bit uh have they entered my arrival was this I knew it was freshly stolen or sold off was only a few weeks old uh I mean not new was had only gone missing a few weeks earlier so it was still good but very nerve-wracking and I didn't have a photo I had to use my old um uh radio operators license that had a photograph in it to get reproduced into this thing so it was a bit grainy um and even on the plane it was delay and takeoff oh God and a mumbling Captain oh sorry um we we have a thing with one passenger I just asked what thing exactly soon enough thwomp doors to manual oh but I've got an hour you know looking at this passport I don't like it get to Singapore but I make it through so you got to Singapore yeah but you did end up going back to prison not a Thai prison but a different prison he's suggesting uh I did something wrong well I'm hoping you're going to tell me um no well okay uh I didn't stay in Singapore long because um I sat there in the hotel room unable to digest food not prepared by my own cook sure I in the hotel room in Singapore I realized you could work out who had left that day if they'd flown my air by simply going to the airport and children you work it out yourselves at home you check everybody who's left separate the foreigners hmm go a step further let's keep the Canadian and American the British the Australian New Zealand all the English-speaking passport Society um just to you know reduce the numbers take those names check with the embassies any of these names belong to lost or stolen passports that have been reported yeah five of them because that's Bangkok you know not the only Mischief maker there but nonetheless um they probably knew I could be who was I Charles McClintock hmm sorry Charles I had to borrow your passport but it was an essential cause but you're not wanted anymore of course are you no but I did get an unwelcome knock at the door some years ago uh by the police who um would it be to go excuse me Westminster Court known for the terrorist cases extradition or parking fights wow I'd lift the car anywhere lately so it was going to be one of the other two and it was extradition to Thailand I fought that case for two years and um it was difficult um but managed to effectively win in the end so the ties have dropped that one and I can't be taken back there I'm not wanted anywhere um I can nobody can do what they want but um I I'm not I haven't got anything pending I'm not in business I'm a bit cautious I even got sent something in the the mail a few years ago and I thought it was some gift from some halfway ambitious wombat in in Pakistan sending me a bit of dope thinking oh yeah there's a gift you might like that connection made no I mean people had my address all around the world ever since Danny Dyer um it turned out to be more complicated than that but um very dangerous for me to walk into a courtroom so I don't even imagine you're me and knock at the door oh here's something for you Ben you don't like the look of it you refuse it you're in court no matter why did you refuse that was it your name no you was up The Jig was up proof ladies and gentlemen oh you accept it ah you accepted it proof ladies and gentlemen wife saying to me Jeanette and whom I met in Pakistan years ago and she was there to fish out her husband on a two-ton hash deal he didn't make it anyway um she said throw the thing away I'm thinking in court again ladies and gentlemen he threw the stuff away I can't win so very cautious about all that kind of stuff um fair enough but I take it you won't be going for a holiday to Thailand anytime soon I didn't think so okay so how many do you know off the top of your head of your life how many years of your life have you spent in prison ultimately I did add it up once I'm 66 now and I suppose I've spent um but 22 years the thing that occurs to me and I met you before and I thought the same thing is like you obviously extremely intelligent extremely resourceful it can't be well but well anyway but do you regret the choices you made in terms of do you see those 22 years in prison as something you had no control over it's just the way the dice rolled or do you see them as a mistake on your part um worse than a mistake mistake suggest you didn't know uh where you were going wrong I was taking those steps into uh of a precipice that I'd defied there is no gravity I said I said I will work out something before I hit the ground um when I was It was kind of in stages when I was young it was just arrogance and and showing off and later on when everything was destroyed it was kind of I'd scraped away all of my life and would just go on um then in the third stage it was escaping away from places rebuilding up and being weakened every time it was taken away again um and do I regret it yeah I'm sure I um no you know some people say oh yeah but David just smuggled everything on Earth you scumbag you you know um think of the lives you've destroyed and the people you've heard ah and I go to start to explain that it's not quite black and white uh I mean I've had drug habits myself that I've carelessly allowed um but I thought what's the point anything I say we just sound like self-justification so well don't listen to me then you know but things that have happened that have taught me a lot it's interesting you say that because one of a lot of the comments on our well on the first video we did a lot of the comments where people saying someone needs to make a movie about this guy but a lot of the other comments were people saying he's so charismatic and likable but he must be a really dangerous person to have been involved with all these worlds for so long and um we've interviewed a couple of drug smugglers and I would say they're the ones that I've met have been the ones that probably are more someone you'd see is traditionally quite an obviously dangerous person you come across as very Charming charismatic roguish where do you see yourself on that scale do you see yourself as someone who was dangerous or do you see yourself as someone who's just moved from area to area as it occurred um kind of like this a dangerous I suppose what most people see that and you know if somebody was a problem for me would I find the best option to have them killed or not but really there always was a kind of Vestige of that's a failure if you can't think of anything better than to have them killed then then then what are you doing there's a million clever ways of solving your problems and that besides which there's always going to be people you can't kill everybody um not only that who killed the killers that you've got to do the killing you know you know they always say that about the quiet ones and all of that but it was the people who bothered to put up a smoke screen um they're establishing a um later Alibi a courtroom personality but I met him he didn't seem bothered by all of that why would he have him killed and those are the ones that um seem to be more dangerous and if I was such a dangerous person like that I certainly been absolute fool to break from that mold and say otherwise wouldn't it very true David it's great to see you again thank you so much for coming in always a pleasure yeah and I've Got a Feeling we'll be seeing you again at some point as well it's possible it does may cross thank you I'll be like oh my God they're in my head they they know they know that was a song and so they put that song on the radio and it's all everything revolves around me or you know and this happened well sometimes happens today you know I'm I'm thinking of someone in my head someone under there like on the street	all with a bit of string on the trigger and they'd all pull it once so that none of them could be condemned in the Buddhist sense of sin oh they don't even actually right I see it caused the bullet that finished you off oh I see so you're in the Thai prison you've been sentenced to uh rather unpleasant death penalty um how did you start coming up with this famous plan for escaping um desperation it was the last plan that looked like it was going to work um there were probably about 20 plans considered um everything from being the prison held I've since found out it holds 22 000 people oh my God in 10 sub prisons uh there's a women's section there's a young offenders there's a special reminder a drug unit all of that um just a wild place it has everything it even had a prisoner-run shop where you could extract you could borrow money against your account and cash anyway um one of the plans involved being welded into a VW Combi van in the prisons Auto Workshop which would be picked up early Monday morning and I'd be driven out and that another one was um there were several courtroom ones and you couldn't just pay your way out no no it's just you could pay to have a mobile phone which in those days was a rare thing but they were around um you could pay for a bottle	-2	6	-5	all with a bit of string on the trigger and they'd all pull it once so that none of them could be condemned in the Buddhist sense of sin oh they don't even actually right I see it caused the bullet that finished you off oh I see so you're in the Thai prison you've been sentenced to uh rather unpleasant death penalty um how did you start coming up with this famous plan for escaping	um desperation it was the last plan that looked like it was going to work um there were probably about 20 plans considered um everything from being the prison held I've since found out it holds 22 000 people oh my God in 10 sub prisons uh there's a women's section there's a young offenders there's a special reminder a drug unit all of that um just a wild place it has everything it even had a prisoner-run shop where you could extract you could borrow money against your account and cash anyway um one of the plans involved being welded into a VW Combi van in the prisons Auto Workshop which would be picked up early Monday morning and I'd be driven out and that another one was um there were several courtroom ones and you couldn't just pay your way out no no it's just you could pay to have a mobile phone which in those days was a rare thing but they were around um you could pay for a bottle	0,4,6	3,6,4	0	4	6	3	6	4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyZyHHexx7s	4,101	oyZyHHexx7s	2022-12-07 00:00:00	even though I was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off I couldn't get people to go with me I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars [Music] it's great to have you back David obviously we've met before but for anyone who doesn't know who you are for new listeners or new viewers could you give us a brief introduction to what you are famous for well I suppose uh most well known for uh having escaped to prison in Thailand in Bangkok uh the biggest one they have there clong Prim it uh wasn't something I did frivolously I was going to be executed within a couple of weeks so it seemed like a good time to leave okay now um we're going to get into that in a bit more detail but one thing that I remember about you from last time is you're the most incredible talker and we took away the inter the initial interview we've done with you and ended up having to make it into two long episodes because you have a lot of different very colorful uh experiences so do forgive me if I Jimmy us through oh no I can understand that I mean the only place I never talk is in the police station I always like some of my uh work colleagues took um what was it one slap to get them talking but five to shut them up oh okay so let's go right back to the beginning um you were born in the UK and then I believe you emigrated to Australia well um it was all a family thing yes I was born in basewater in London I spent the first few years of my life then uh there but my parents broke up divorced and I went with my mother to Australia with my older sister so I don't have any really very early memories of London apart from some old eight millimeter movie footage of me learning to walk in Hyde Park my dad was waving a five pound note in front of my face and I was making every effort to grab it I continued that behavior for many many years afterwards returned to Australia um finished some schooling um got really contrasting jobs I worked in an adult Agency for a while um but also before that I was got a job in a cinema now it was the and under literally an underground place but it was there that I got introduced to a bunch of crooks um some of the girls there had boyfriends that I used to run down with um strange boxes or bits of money or fur coats and then wink at me bolt out the back door pursued by often policemen undercover ones of course whom we'd misdirect somewhere but that Circle they were um safe crackers and they really didn't trust Outsiders and didn't much like the sound of me but because of I demonstrated a couple of things by being look everybody was really very anti-authority then I I don't mean hostile but for people now they they wouldn't have experienced that in the uh late 60s 70s we were so snotty and arrogant we really thought we were going to change the world and that um the laws were all nothing and the way to change them was to break them well that was the kind of vanity we had so um when I got to know the safe crackers uh better there was something really interesting I mean I didn't like the idea you know stealing things seemed a bit tacky but on the other hand they kind of all needed the money from the from their backgrounds and everything but that wasn't so much the the interest it was the technicalities of getting into these things okay um they used to drill through the top um having anchored it with the drill with clamps and and put a kind of little lens inside a cystoscope used in medicine and watch the the wheels turning around this is the old kind of old-fashioned Hollywood style it was yeah and um behind the safe were three discs and you had to line them up and they'd once they got in they'd take the door with them so that the opposition the safe makers wouldn't know how they'd got in and it was a a constant battle between the manufacturers and them because they've come across new safes which had Special Metals in it that was mixed like a a crunchy nut bar very hard metals very soft ones so the drill bit would slip on them snap and you got a sense that this was almost like a game where um they would try something then try to beat them and they were very loyal to each other um they they never spoke out of school as it were um when I got involved with them I'd only have to if I had trouble I don't have to make one phone call and people would appear out of nowhere and I thought yeah this this is kind of better than the treacherous boys school that I I grew up in and how old were you at this point um 19 years old 19. so were you thinking you were making a conscious decision to move into illegal activities or at that point in time and at that point in the world did it feel like more of a kind of a bit of roguish fun would you say I was drawn to it anyway because it was interesting and um I didn't really have a lot of fear I think sometimes what we do or don't do is depending on how scary it seems yeah agreed um I was born with a low resting heart rate as they say you know if it's below 70 you're a risk taker I don't know why that is when the safe crackers retired they put some of their money into growing little crops of weed and so on but profit margin is is only through importing because like the price difference is cheap in the source countries expensive where it sells so because they couldn't do it they were almost throwing it down like a challenge like we don't know anybody who can do this and I thought well I traveled a lot um I didn't think it was going to be impossible um I thought the odds were in my phone and I looked it up I went to the library and sort of researched it a bit and where were you thinking which country Well they um they were very keen to get some um hashish from India or Nepal or somewhere okay I could see um it's bulky and there's packing problems so um they funded me and off I sailed now the operation my first operation was so deplorably bad I'm barely 20 years old I my cunning plan which involved a big piece of exported Machinery which had weights in it so the weights would come out the cash would go in it would weigh the same being returned and it was a piece of Television equipment or something that went South immediately when I didn't realize that I would have to pay a huge deposit in duty to even bring it in as a demo machine so forget that I ended up in short meeting a guy in a money exchange section of a bank I was there because I ran out and I had to send asking for more from the boys and I met him and he wasn't involved in any of this but he soon became that just he managed to get me six kilos of hash I took the 1952 ancient Grundig radio from his parents house the Shelf there guttered the thing like a fish wrapped it up and he had to get cling film in those days think of this before you travel arriving with a suitcase full of cling film doesn't look good I suppose but uh wedged it in there and then just flew back to Sydney now you can imagine what happened well just before we get on to what happened you know one thing that strikes me is what year was would this have been this was uh 77 77 so it's amazing think that back then if someone was going to India for the first time now they could go on Google Maps they could research it or they could find out who they could find phone numbers contacts they could be put in contact with people before they've even set off whereas you must have at that age at that time been going in slightly blind you know touching down in a foreign country that you didn't know well no contacts was that not quite daunting well what was more um troubling with um how everything would fail and then I'd have to um you know come up with another plan what context somebody I knew um um there were no bank robber who joined the hare krishnas and fled to India right and I had his name and and the ashram in Delhi where where he was was supposed to have been uh I didn't really catch up with him on that trip but okay sure so so then you get back to Australia with your radio that is now full to the brim with and I get stopped you you did get stopped okay I could stop because uh I'm I'm on a British passport um and it's the only trip I've ever done and I'm that age I'd stop me oh fatherly type was at the Customs desk now the the systems were different in those days um it was Sydney too which is very and certainly was very relaxed back then right he opened the suitcase uh there was nothing in there except a pair of socks there's a towel wrapping up this massive radio which he lifted up so it was buckled at the sides little red packets poking out oh it smelled like a hedgehog for a patchouliers okay not much of a disguise um he let me go he uh put it back looked around to make sure that none of his workmates were watching him being so soft um and then turned to me and said you're going back there you're going to do this again [Music] all right you can take your we'll call it a radio shall we get out of here what he thought I realized later was that he didn't want the whole grammar of the day arresting me filling out papers and it would have been a a long time plus I guess being a dad he thought if I he's obviously an idiot you're right if I send him into Gladiator Academy or it wasn't really like that in those days but certainly contact center um the prison what am I doing um well I guess uh he was hopeful you know I whilst out of there must have smuggling me but I experienced then what um I got years later which was kind of a real Downer after you know having got nowhere with The Hare krishnas and and cultivated the shoeshine boys and had my money stolen at Amex uh by some Scallywags in Delhi all sorts of Little Adventures over there in India and nonetheless made it it's kind of like that's all there is to it I I didn't really want to give it to anyone um sort of felt like you didn't have a big moment of no a bit of money that came earlier that's handy right uh I paid back what I owed and settled up for for the next thing so but once that was started when you sorry I interrupted you go oh I was just going to say it to finish it even though they'd funded me the guys were very surprised to see me back but at all at all oh you made it oh because some of them say oh you'll just run away with it uh even if that's what he's doing who knows what he's doing you know and then I could see sitting around you can imagine there's like a table full of well like three guys and then a kind of Darkness shrouded over that room I thought uh it's not valuable enough to kill me you know what what is this mood why did you bring that well that's what you've been talking about yeah you could have loaded that with cane or smack or something you guys we say nothing but terrible things about a class or heavy drugs that don't want to know about it right and I could read then that wait a minute there we're all might be guys together and having fun getting into the safe and whatnot but there was a kind of different it was something a very strong lesson I'd have to be thoughtful about that um there could be times where things didn't work out not necessarily that my safety was at risk I didn't see it that way but I knew that there were Ruthless People right okay yeah so you got an insight into a mindset that had been a bit below the surface it was there I just chose not to see it but um I then went on to you know refine everything and Vary everything and then did you after that first time did you were you still working sort of for them or did you immediately well when you wake up on your own when things um I picked up and there was enough money around out of uh out of strategy rather than just being a nice guy I gave my partners a kind of thank you bonus from the next thing that I did but I did that all myself right so it was almost like a yeah separation and I wanted to go back to the my hippie friends anyway they were a little less it wasn't that they were scary but but that didn't last because they were maybe friends might be all right but they will certainly careless and stupid but from from that point onwards after that initial Journey was that you then into the world of smuggling I thought this won't last forever you only need one setback and that changes it I probably made quite a lot of money and I could have got out but and I should have gotta you know I have couriers a leak from one of the the couriers brought the police to me and here was the problem with it it was at first I scattered now I was married to my first wife then clearly Italian girl her dad had restaurants I grabbed her I had a secret drawer with extra passports in it some money ended up four plane Journeys later in um off the Bahamas had the skipper of a day rent yacht and take me out to an island and nobody had ever been on before it was empty sat there on a towel I thought hmm the level of surveillance I had means it's quite a big operation they're funded and I checked with a lawyer before the bigger the money they spent the more determined they'll be stay away or go back I mean I don't know why would anybody do this uh well I wasn't broke um I didn't have to there was no pressure on me the more I went through the problems the more attractive the whole thing is uh she didn't like it much well again do you think because it was a puzzle to be solved because um arrogance really we've gone from basically someone who was kind of mildly interested in making a group of people meeting a group of um safe hackers to someone who pulled off their first thing and then we've jumped to someone who has people working for them and and now is no longer taking the risk themselves now the police are on to you and you're on this desert island well small island and you're thinking about going back into it was this like a turning point in your life in terms of going you know because the other option I suppose was to go straight but were you just more it was that just not an option for you I'd gone to my lawyer Ralph he said look this is what I picked up because I my travel agent had tipped me to a couple of detectives that come in he traveled again while I was in on the phone okay uh actually they're all innocent really yeah you know and and gave him a long list of names um they wanted travel details for and a telephone number which I traced uh to um a private office building which had been rented by state and federal police they were so distrusting of their own they didn't want to even run this thing from um regular police headquarters my lawyer said well what you sure it's you said Ralph look at the list of names there's 30 there I'm 26 of them passports are a lot easier to get back then than there now so you had 26 aliases that you were traveling on yeah right okay um and I described where they were he said David they are funded well they're not bear this in mind but although I what they won't get me with anything they're funded you think they're going to walk away after a year and say oh sorry boss you spend a million dollars and uh nothing doing they don't work like that but this is how stubborn I was I thought because he said the only thing you can do is disappear for at least a couple of years and then you can come back if that's what you want and of course I had justifications for it I thought okay I'll I'll build up a bit more money and then I'll disappear but um it was only after things went terribly badly that I realized I shouldn't play like this anymore what it was they um because the challenge just kept coming so now so did you go back to Australia I went back to Australia and and when I retired within three months right but they weren't waiting for you to arrest you or no no they wanted they wanted something solid okay [Music] um I won't go into the long machinations of it all but um somebody we knew uh was getting things from a Thai Courier and he got arrested he sold us out to the police so that that The Courier would now come to us and I always have some solid evidence right he would bring things but we got away with that because that was another challenge but the police got tired of all this arrested me no drugs of course so it was a difficult case the worst kind of case is that where there's no solid evidence and in a way it's better to go to court where you've got a Smoking Gun and a dead body on the ground because at least you know where you are but where there's nothing tangible and it's conspiracies and this was a huge trial six months long what is that 119 Witnesses 6 000 pages of uh telephone intercept massive thing won't made it worse too and I think this was um would change things for me um the pressure was put on for confessions but it'd be silly to confess and you can't confess on somebody else's behalf can you that's not nice um lots of the family were arrested even my mother was taken and it went oh wow just to put pressure on uh did she know what you did oh she had an idea right okay I mean I used to have bin liners full of money I'd leave behind the fridge yeah you don't get that in the cinema do you not done not a very good day you know uh because they arrested so many people now when they arrested our wives and my business partner Michael his wife just had a baby it was we had to do a deal here I didn't want to but I was going to say I said to Michael look I know you don't like it but we'll play to it get the girls out of trouble we'll Escape that's a good challenge that way [Music] um but unfortunately um the intelligence section put an arsonist Informer in with the girls to get some information her fire was lit uh burnt down the women's prison and my wife and my business partner's wife was were killed uh that's awful and so the Informer that they put in there yeah why did they pick an arsonist for Daniel writer name was I don't know why I remember that after 40 years God so that's quite a big that was oh and and just uh to make things worse the story put about town to scare the careers into talking because they wouldn't speak was that we'd we were killing off all the witnesses and starting with our own family where does that come from um we ended up in a super max prison nightmarish electronic zoo with two inch glass and electronic doors and insane inmates held 48 death rate 27 people a year died in that little supermax going to court in Chains with a SWAT team taking it it was so so much Michael fell to pieces he was just a wreck he didn't make it uh he survived the jail but died when he got out the only way I could survive all of that was to strip away everything I you know I found myself in the supermax concrete everything's concrete the bed everything there's no everything's still just with the tape player from my lure listening to the the tapes the bug tapes the microphones in my house I could play back my life for the last six months clearly you're moving from room to room taking telephone calls she was crying about something I didn't know what I never know and David that's gone immerse yourself in the worst that they have you will not survive this otherwise trial sort of went not so good acquitted of most things but convicted enough 10 years difficult imprisonment but I the only way I could deal with it was to say did I want revenge that was more my fault I brought this about I got her in there I mean a family of a very kind to me about it considering I wouldn't be but it doesn't matter in Chains and super Mech strip it all away it is nothing everyone is a potential enemy everything it just nothing mattered win the day win the night I mean this is a place we had to fill in a book to get some toilet paper the showers were in front of them in a glass box um if you went on a visit they'd zip you up and lock you in a suit so you had no pockets there was after that and her death I felt like there was nothing that could affect me you're wrong about these things you know we're human but I got out and they were there they even visited me to say we'll be on you when you get out the police yeah we enjoyed the old days didn't you yeah I said pretending you know and just to make the point that they were there when I got out um I I'd done a whole lot of Woodwork in the prison in the last place I was at carving intricate things making these really great trick Chinese boxes with beeswax they intercepted the van that was taking it from the prison back to my house and smashed it all to pieces I put it in a box just to say don't think that we will never be here we can do what we want so I decided to leave the country I was um how old am I by then let's work it out yeah uh I started all this Mischief when I was about 18 got arrested at 22. 23 uh um 16 years 17 years either under surveillance or in bad prisons got out and I'm under surveillance again um so how old so you're number 37 about 37. so that's already you know that's a big chunk of Life there but you've lost quite a lot of it to prison or surveillance well at no point now were you like okay and I wasn't a normal person uh really when I got out because of the experience of prison I'd already stripped most of Myself Away to deal with the death of the Superman yeah and and watching people be burnt to death in the place which was frequent somebody had contact glue pulled all over him and then satellite oh God Gods came in and the other one's standing there with a Tire swinging it around to make sure to let him burn let him burn Jesus Barry's name was testicles swollen like apples but black okay he died two hours later in hospital anyway um that was regular account to deal with that I'd already strip things away so when I got a little apartment when I got out and my mother had arranged things for me when they were there when they'd leave rude messages on my answer machine when they'd be behind me everywhere I thought all right I remember this David it never ends if you want to survive go back to the way you were you know in in the super max Anything Can Happen anytime but I didn't want to live like that um I got a fresh passport and most elaborate means um I could spend a week explaining how that came into existence but I went to Thailand to pick up some money I had three days there it was just before Christmas I left at that time on purpose so that they maybe I thought maybe it's their weak point that they want to have families in their life just at Christmas I've parked my mum's car and and left the keys somewhere for her nobody knew were you not meant to leave the country no no no licenses oh I see we're just going to take a minute here to talk about a sponsor of this show which is manscaped we were sent a package to try out by manscaped but Conor one of our producers is already a fan of the brand I believe yeah absolutely I've been using manscape for a little while now and Ben as you know it's that time of year people start asking you what you want for Christmas and I would say that a great gift for a man especially one that might have everything is the manscape performance package 4.0 so what's in that so you get the lawnmower 4.0 electric trimmer you get some anti-chafe boxer shorts which I can vouch for as well as a couple of other grooming products that smell great fantastic well it sounds like a five-star review from uconnor absolutely so Connor you were talking about the performance package there's loads of other great gift ideas such as the hygiene bundle all available at manscape.com com and all gifts that men will genuinely love to receive this Christmas if you are a listener of this podcast you get 20 off and free shipping all you have to do is go to manscape.com and use the code minutes that's manscape.com m-i-n-u-t-e-s minutes um so why are we doing that the risk is it worth it I didn't want to play anymore right I wanted to uh see if I could have a something resembling like a a real life just to find some corner of the world plan was to to return to London and oh so you were leaving forever I'm leaving forever okay I see nobody knew it um I had a couple of hundred thousand in Thailand I thought um which I returned to pick up um now I suppose people say this Crooks always say this most unusual circumstances led to my arrest well they were but then again they always are aren't they or you wouldn't be telling the story or you wouldn't have been arrested but um the USDA was involved lots of people lots of players uh no real drugs are found uh they did an airport sweep and listed me up for like an ounce of something and a false passport or two the money I had just disappeared into pockets but those when I arrived there I felt so free I knew this identity was good I just like floating on air really I slipped out of my protective mode you know that when we stick to the plan and all right you don't want to leave I should have even stayed there for six months just get some sensible view of the world but I I didn't uh and as I went to the airport I could see they were all around me and I melted back into the crowd and disappeared again I thought well that serves me right for changing that attitude I'd had from back in super max and I just glaze over concentrate on the details which I needed to do because when I went to make a phone call later at the travel agency uh waiting it was so depressing being thrown into the Thai prison and I had some idea what they'd be like um people I'd known had been arrested there I knew this much it never won a case you never get out well you get out and what were they arresting you for was it the the uh the passport um what did the the the money wasn't I mean what did they leave 4 000 or something like that right and there are airports we put um I saw the guy walking in with it in a plastic bag you know whatever people throw on the floor before they go through security there was a bit of hash this usual bits of weed but what they really wanted was um this 25 grams of heroin because that would finish me off a policeman um Australian one said was that yours yeah yeah sure it was he said I didn't think so what would you be carrying around that for I mean if it was 10 kilos I might understand but but that was enough the death penalty and was it yours no no no so where where would that come from if you do they do a sweep every afternoon at five o'clock they get tons of it right I get you know nervous passengers go up and then they change their minds and they throw it in the toilet too and were they just did do you think they believed it was yours or do you think they were just going this is we need to give him this bit no no I think they were using it hoping to that would be good to hold and maybe they could get something else find out what I was up to who I was seeing because I had met um somebody who's whose uncle was a big player right so there was there was I think they were optimistic there might be more Camp come out of it but but there wasn't but what difference did it make and I wasn't really worried about um those drugs or the death penalty I wanted to die anyway frankly my first escape plans from there had this I imagine getting out to find the Privacy to kill myself right I wanted to go to the dusa Tony Hotel I knew Which floor and where to get onto the roof I'd taken photographs from there many years before um they were you simply couldn't get a moment's piece dormitories with 150 guys in them screaming all night um we can't even take a crap in peace in the Thai prison We're Not Afraid though of what killing myself well no I mean I don't know being brutalized by the guards or the inmates so well I knew enough about Thailand to to know that it was a little more comic than than bad there were very bad things happen they used to um they've beaten people a couple of people get beaten to death every day there but it's a very big prison we have to get that in proportion I only wish they wouldn't use the food trolley to take the dead bodies out because um you know they don't clean them up um and could you speak the language or were you quite it was a quite different communication uh not really uh and the few languages that uh pitch up in my travels I always found that even if you know them it's better to pretend you don't okay um because they'll talk about you behind your back you know certainly didn't live it on there was I I just couldn't see any point I'd gone to such elaborate precautions on this trip um it just shouldn't have happened and I even got away from the airport and still it happened oh all that confidence that I'll figure a way out I didn't care anymore I just had enough um and I remember seeing an old guy there if you had to go to court they put change on you and um you'd line up on the ground now this old guy I was looking at him because I don't know why a big soundtrack went past he had the presence of mind to push his head under that sand truck and oh it twisted it around popped like a watermelon being dropped on the ground oh my God guys very annoyed told the trustees to get that thing away out of sight was that nice thing called it I thought you Brave bastard you yeah you've got the guts to do that was it not quite a disturbing thing to witness no it was shocking because if you haven't seen it kind of thing up close and I happen to be looking um it was uh but that that's how I felt about it but I was saved In The End by a con man and people say a lot of bad things about economy they do yes they do and they uh you can't be trusted uh they are rottenness and they will cheat you just because they're the Scorpion that's in their nature uh but sometimes they're just what you need and this rather smooth um Bostonian American um who spoke Thai and really knew his way around and I you know I thought the somewhere in this huge prison there'd be an enclave of rich and corrupt foreigners with loads of money and there'd be luxuries it wasn't there was nobody of any importance in there you know a couple of big sacrifices had been made but um a couple of very rich policemen who were in the hospital in intensive care but other than that it was it was just um the people who reached the absolute bottom Drifters in Asia who did run after run and then got sacrificed to the machine they'd get about four jobs a big Syndicate there operating careers had run four times bang they'd shot them to the police they'd be gone oh God they will turn told the same story and it was Joe it was this guest house it was such and such identical and um and and at this point had you been sentenced to death had you received oh no no no I I was trying to avoid that yeah once I came to my senses because the the Boston con had so many wonderful schemes medical thing to get me bail and know some way of a escape with a go to court I get snatched from there I had villains come over and and scope out the court too because there was a way I thought of getting out of there from the lift that took you up to the the building uh snatched from the middle as you go down changed into a different set of clothes but they all got scared thing about um some of our most loved uh and fearless villains they're pretty good in the local manner but you throw them into a place like that where people carry machine guns and shoot at will just for the hell of it not so confident they like the upper edge of being snakes um so I couldn't convince anybody to really help and it was just as well um and two and a half years passed there in this prison it's a long time it was I sort of perked up a little bit pulled myself together started exercising um got a couple of ATM cards over hadn't my favorite god um he was in charge of the the building bought myself a room renovated um so you had you bought a room within the prison that was just for you rented that's rented right you know and is that an official thing that you're allowed to do right there are places in the world where it's official right but you had an influx of money that you could pay for special treats you could survive there on um less than 500 pounds a month and be king oh wow was this the 70s or the 80s now by the way we're into um 90 495 19 the 495 because what's reported about you is that during the 80s you were a multi-millionaire um is that accurate um now what do we call a multi-millionaires a young halfway with a million and a quarter on a glass coffee table and looks around the living room and thinks I've got to get a sofa one of these days um oh goes to the car auctions in the morning buys a big yank tank with a 427 Chevy engine in it um drives it around makes his own car parking spaces you know we're smashing the front in backing the other one pushing the other cars out of the way um oh stoned off my head most of the time uh if I wasn't stunned enough I'd take a few mandracks just to colludes icing on the cake um so I didn't take care of the money and the money didn't take care of me so I guess I'm like the reason I the reason I asked was because it must have been quite a stark change going from a very rich existence to basically somewhere where you basically couldn't pay for anything initially and it was a very poor existence but I guess from what you're saying there it's not like you felt like you were Rich at the time um I've made that contrast a few times when I had my first big arrest I couldn't as I was in a cold near lightless cell of blue stone and horse hair mattress about two inches thick and wrecking a piss I would think back to the night before when I had my important to tell in huge bed and Irish linen sheets and swimming pool out there and um and we had to kind of shake off the contrast but that rubber banding must must have been hard to take because it's you're going from basically the aspiration of almost everyone where you're talking about just buying cars outright and having a swimming pool to a piss stinking bed you know it must be it was you know it's odd thing about it was providing I could see a way out a work a way out I didn't so much mind oh okay um I really trained myself to expect my whatever world I built up and and this happened several times I've done it five times had a new identity New Life new surroundings even new people and dang they're gone and every time it got worse um and there was even Thailand was desperately important because even though it was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it um you know I was somebody that nobody minded killing um so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah there's nothing like the prospect of being executed by a machine gun which is the way they did it God is that what it would have been wow yeah you know oh they'd have three guards all with a bit of string on the trigger and they'd all pull it once so that none of them could be condemned in the Buddhist sense of sin oh they don't even actually right I see it caused the bullet that finished you off oh I see so you're in the Thai prison you've been sentenced to uh rather unpleasant death penalty um how did you start coming up with this famous plan for escaping um desperation it was the last plan that looked like it was going to work um there were probably about 20 plans considered um everything from being the prison held I've since found out it holds 22 000 people oh my God in 10 sub prisons uh there's a women's section there's a young offenders there's a special reminder a drug unit all of that um just a wild place it has everything it even had a prisoner-run shop where you could extract you could borrow money against your account and cash anyway um one of the plans involved being welded into a VW Combi van in the prisons Auto Workshop which would be picked up early Monday morning and I'd be driven out and that another one was um there were several courtroom ones and you couldn't just pay your way out no no it's just you could pay to have a mobile phone which in those days was a rare thing but they were around um you could pay for a bottle of clong uh whiskey you could pay I'm sure you could pay to get a a girl in your room if you could work out what a room was that a whole section full of ladyboys there and got a building full of them they used to open it up on Saturdays so um you could pay for anything but not to leave they couldn't cover that and they couldn't trust each other you would need 25 30 different guards paid off and and the gods of visitors I mean too many guides no that wouldn't work and they looked at it as a kind of betrayal only if I saw two escapes attempts there one group of uh straight kids and a Singaporean got out of their cell incredibly turned themselves into the sleeping God when they'd all lied to each other about what they didn't have you know the ropes and ways out because they're it was so outraged that they'd spoiled the guys jobs they beat them to death slowly tortured them over three months to death having put them in little code lockers the soy they call them drag them out in elephant chains every day and batter them senseless uh internal bleeding usually did it um look I've got a bowl of rice and a painting to poo in that was it um even the water was it was just too horrible so if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off even my Swedish friends Sten the Viking he backed out at the last minute I couldn't get people to go with me all the other plants had fallen to bits because they depended on other people I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars and I needed equipment for that and here's a really important point I guess as bad as this world is you've got to try to find good people if you ask somebody if you asked your friend yeah and and you're finished you'll manage to get a phone call and say friend it's been here um I need you to get um I don't know four hacksaw blades and cut them into the dowel rods of a of a poster and then paint it all up and send it in a huge package with this that cable ties gaffer tape but disguise all that how many people are going to do it turn around wouldn't believe it Ben called me what his neck yeah he's screwed but anyway he wouldn't believe but he wants me to do this that now people don't do it but Michael on the other hand our business partner wouldn't even let me explain he hadn't heard from me in 18 months he said David don't explain I'm sure we could get cut off tell me the important part now where do I have to be and what do I have to bring no that's a friend um and so I've always tried to do the same for the others that I've known like that um but um I did get the equipment together that I needed and everything um about escapes from a big prison is not like your hope it's going to be you know I turned it out walked around the streets and it had streets inside it um and timed it with my trusty Casio and it was so I knew roughly how long it would take to get me but the night's a different world I'm a prisoner I'm only used to noise during the day even the fan chopping around in the Cell at night it's so quiet everything I did squeaked and rattled and twisted I came across a panel that had to be a nail had to come out and that and they'll protest it and scream their wrench out of the way it took um uh seven or eight worlds uh sorry seven or eight walls to cross over I say worlds because they really were every building was a different thing and I got lost and I went past the terminal AIDS Ward that building hundreds of guys all die and I could smell it before I got there because this necrotic Rotting Flesh and I couldn't resist looking in I'm carrying this huge long ladder made out of bamboo poles and fake picture frames gaffer taped along the center [Music] um and I looked up and I saw all these little faces in the Moonlight wrapped in so much pain and despair they didn't have the energy to cry out to the guards if they'd been in any other prisoners they would have the trustees there were absolute scum of the earth had whistled little uniforms sell the drugs one day and the rest of the guys for it the next all of that um and it was only by um well I only got to the outer wall by Dawn and if somebody had been with me I wouldn't have made it either you wouldn't have no imagine I've taken all night to get there and at each point where this something was unexpected I've had to dream up something and I get a little basic toolkit and I sometimes I'd have to sacrifice part of my ladder to make a hook to pull down barbed wire and the technique for using the thing was awkward you had to prop it walk up drop down the other side so you're twisting over the walls like that manual is entirely barbed wire so I had to go underneath it covered in mud the the last one was really too high and there was a Mars bar Creek the the moat that ran around I did you know if I was with somebody else we'd be arguing wouldn't we oh Spa Creek oh it was full of turds bombing around it was caught out of the sewer yeah you did ask um illustrative okay we're just gonna take a quick break from the show to talk about a sponsor of this episode better help better help is an online Counseling Service which connects people to therapists and counselors I'm joined by one of our producers bryony is counseling something you've had experience with do you know what it's interesting because when I was growing up the same kind of challenges in life would happen but people wouldn't necessarily go to therapy or talk about therapy and I feel like since uh maybe my late teens early 20s people are starting to go to therapy and talking about it and I have definitely used it in my life and it's been massively beneficial same and do you because I think one of the things that people often mistake they think it's just for big things yeah but what's the other experience of that thing I think life always throws you know small challenges and large challenges and sometimes the big things need talking about but actually you know starting a new school or starting a new job can rile up that same level of anxiety and it's just really helpful to be able to talk to someone about it who is completely impartial not involved in your life and just kind of a safe space I guess to just say whatever you want to say you completely agree as the world's largest therapy service better help as much 3 million people with professionally licensed and vetted therapists available 100 online plus it's affordable just fill out a brief questionnaire to match with a therapist if things aren't clicking you can easily switch to a new therapist anytime it couldn't be simpler no waiting rooms no traffic no endless searching for the right therapist learn more and save 10 of your first month at betterhelp.com minutes with that's betterhelp help help.com minutes with um now there was one way of oh Beyond marsburg create this a foot and a half of land before this huge huge wall you've got to get a ladder that's too heavy to carry too imbalanced to do anything with but you've got a bit of rope how do you get it to the other side of Mars bar which has all got tangled barb wire in that so it'll catch get it in place and up against the wall when you've got no ground to to walk on now there is a way and uh I guess people have to listen to me describe it either to you or in my book okay fine but too long to tell here sure but um I could see the glow of dawn as I got to the top which had electricity running through it too just to make it the top of the wall dead yeah yeah wow but um my friend who um was in there a bit of a technician is to belong to the anarchist Society in in Britain how would you belong to a society that has rules when you anyway putting that aside he did tell me that it would only be 240 volts but to be careful um and just managed to get over that and because the original plan was to um oh there was an outer moat beyond that of 20 meters I had my clothes ready to go into a plastic bag swim the moat but just as well I didn't um because all it turned out all the guards houses were over the other side of that moat this would not be a place to go but I cleaned myself up threw some clothes on and I one of the jobs that I didn't do but I was supposed to be doing was working in the Umbrella Factory so I paid a local boy to do it um I've got a pop-up umbrella from there I thought you know you really get a perspective about I want to just simple discrimination but being an outsider a foreigner the way sometimes people feel picked upon you know we were called the white trash and we were in in Chains and everything so I knew I had to cover my face in the popular did it and I managed to get to a place where a passport was hidden and to the airport and still had a working ATM card to get me out of the country into Singapore so did you end up with the umbrella did you walk out the front gate yeah I did I had some long trousers on now in their prisoners are not allowed to wear them so I had some khaki pants I thought they might as I walked around the the narrow path to the front gate it's still mote but a little Bridge I thought another figure it's a guard arriving late and sneaking in and I did I felt like Ripley an alien uh looking at thinking lucky lucky this is where it all ends doesn't it and I'm thinking that every moment and looking up and there was just enough light rain to justify the umbrella yeah I would learn later that was actually the not a rain from the gods but the spittle of their laughter because they had worse things in mind for me later on I mean it's so it's you know how many people are you aware how many people had escaped from that prison up to that point was it some every year or was it very infrequent none um the ties sometimes ran away when they were doing the gardens in Chains outside but Escape From Within um I'd known of in 20 years people could recall two attempts no foreigners um and they didn't trust the foreigners that's why they put you on the third floor right quite rightly yes and and how long had it taken you from like the beginning of the uh I started cutting at um 11 45 I paid a lot to get a light switch in there normally the lights are on all the time um okay and I said to my favorite guard oh yeah Ponting or whatever his name was I can't sleep with that thing I'll put a light switch in um um now they didn't say it as corruption or bribe taking they thought I'm doing this nice guy a favor and I'll be lucky because of it that's a very big thing over there you know if I get caught I'm unlucky then so they can batter me to death I mean sure it's kind of self-justifies any action that a human being might take so he started cutting around eight for 11 45 11 45 okay it's quite close through one bar by two in the morning oh God stencia listen we'll go on the next note I looked around and Kevin the American from Hawaii I didn't even know this was happening uh Mirage the Indian I know he's going to talk the next morning he was kakaria LA pantaloni right in the cell never mind holding out and not saying anything he would have it would have been finished I never would have made it and I guess I could have seen the missing bars potentially but I learned later on I actually caught up with somebody who was in there Scottish guy um he was there for selling ecstasy to the Two well-off Sons and Daughters of wealthy policemen anyway um he remembers they the guards couldn't figure that I'd left oh um he said David they ran around the the prison calling out your name it was Daniel Westlake while I was there Daniel Daniel they okay that somebody drew their attention to the cut bar in there yeah my Scottish friend said they the gods wanted they thought that okay he's got out he's angry about something uh Daniel but he's not actually he'll never get out he couldn't get it they never found the the ladder down the front wall until much much later so for um uh uh only one of them said oh we better check the airport they sent a couple of guys down there um just a little bit late and you were gone by then only just and remember man you've got a passport from a Chinese connection that you barely know but kind of like the cut of his jib but are you gonna put your life on the line on that and at every moment you're handing it over you know like the look of it yeah they don't like the look of it they're typing it up and you're thinking they got onto the computer have they done that bit uh have they entered my arrival was this I knew it was freshly stolen or sold off was only a few weeks old uh I mean not new was had only gone missing a few weeks earlier so it was still good but very nerve-wracking and I didn't have a photo I had to use my old um uh radio operators license that had a photograph in it to get reproduced into this thing so it was a bit grainy um and even on the plane it was delay and takeoff oh God and a mumbling Captain oh sorry um we we have a thing with one passenger I just asked what thing exactly soon enough thwomp doors to manual oh but I've got an hour you know looking at this passport I don't like it get to Singapore but I make it through so you got to Singapore yeah but you did end up going back to prison not a Thai prison but a different prison he's suggesting uh I did something wrong well I'm hoping you're going to tell me um no well okay uh I didn't stay in Singapore long because um I sat there in the hotel room unable to digest food not prepared by my own cook sure I in the hotel room in Singapore I realized you could work out who had left that day if they'd flown my air by simply going to the airport and children you work it out yourselves at home you check everybody who's left separate the foreigners hmm go a step further let's keep the Canadian and American the British the Australian New Zealand all the English-speaking passport Society um just to you know reduce the numbers take those names check with the embassies any of these names belong to lost or stolen passports that have been reported yeah five of them because that's Bangkok you know not the only Mischief maker there but nonetheless um they probably knew I could be who was I Charles McClintock hmm sorry Charles I had to borrow your passport but it was an essential cause but you're not wanted anymore of course are you no but I did get an unwelcome knock at the door some years ago uh by the police who um would it be to go excuse me Westminster Court known for the terrorist cases extradition or parking fights wow I'd lift the car anywhere lately so it was going to be one of the other two and it was extradition to Thailand I fought that case for two years and um it was difficult um but managed to effectively win in the end so the ties have dropped that one and I can't be taken back there I'm not wanted anywhere um I can nobody can do what they want but um I I'm not I haven't got anything pending I'm not in business I'm a bit cautious I even got sent something in the the mail a few years ago and I thought it was some gift from some halfway ambitious wombat in in Pakistan sending me a bit of dope thinking oh yeah there's a gift you might like that connection made no I mean people had my address all around the world ever since Danny Dyer um it turned out to be more complicated than that but um very dangerous for me to walk into a courtroom so I don't even imagine you're me and knock at the door oh here's something for you Ben you don't like the look of it you refuse it you're in court no matter why did you refuse that was it your name no you was up The Jig was up proof ladies and gentlemen oh you accept it ah you accepted it proof ladies and gentlemen wife saying to me Jeanette and whom I met in Pakistan years ago and she was there to fish out her husband on a two-ton hash deal he didn't make it anyway um she said throw the thing away I'm thinking in court again ladies and gentlemen he threw the stuff away I can't win so very cautious about all that kind of stuff um fair enough but I take it you won't be going for a holiday to Thailand anytime soon I didn't think so okay so how many do you know off the top of your head of your life how many years of your life have you spent in prison ultimately I did add it up once I'm 66 now and I suppose I've spent um but 22 years the thing that occurs to me and I met you before and I thought the same thing is like you obviously extremely intelligent extremely resourceful it can't be well but well anyway but do you regret the choices you made in terms of do you see those 22 years in prison as something you had no control over it's just the way the dice rolled or do you see them as a mistake on your part um worse than a mistake mistake suggest you didn't know uh where you were going wrong I was taking those steps into uh of a precipice that I'd defied there is no gravity I said I said I will work out something before I hit the ground um when I was It was kind of in stages when I was young it was just arrogance and and showing off and later on when everything was destroyed it was kind of I'd scraped away all of my life and would just go on um then in the third stage it was escaping away from places rebuilding up and being weakened every time it was taken away again um and do I regret it yeah I'm sure I um no you know some people say oh yeah but David just smuggled everything on Earth you scumbag you you know um think of the lives you've destroyed and the people you've heard ah and I go to start to explain that it's not quite black and white uh I mean I've had drug habits myself that I've carelessly allowed um but I thought what's the point anything I say we just sound like self-justification so well don't listen to me then you know but things that have happened that have taught me a lot it's interesting you say that because one of a lot of the comments on our well on the first video we did a lot of the comments where people saying someone needs to make a movie about this guy but a lot of the other comments were people saying he's so charismatic and likable but he must be a really dangerous person to have been involved with all these worlds for so long and um we've interviewed a couple of drug smugglers and I would say they're the ones that I've met have been the ones that probably are more someone you'd see is traditionally quite an obviously dangerous person you come across as very Charming charismatic roguish where do you see yourself on that scale do you see yourself as someone who was dangerous or do you see yourself as someone who's just moved from area to area as it occurred um kind of like this a dangerous I suppose what most people see that and you know if somebody was a problem for me would I find the best option to have them killed or not but really there always was a kind of Vestige of that's a failure if you can't think of anything better than to have them killed then then then what are you doing there's a million clever ways of solving your problems and that besides which there's always going to be people you can't kill everybody um not only that who killed the killers that you've got to do the killing you know you know they always say that about the quiet ones and all of that but it was the people who bothered to put up a smoke screen um they're establishing a um later Alibi a courtroom personality but I met him he didn't seem bothered by all of that why would he have him killed and those are the ones that um seem to be more dangerous and if I was such a dangerous person like that I certainly been absolute fool to break from that mold and say otherwise wouldn't it very true David it's great to see you again thank you so much for coming in always a pleasure yeah and I've Got a Feeling we'll be seeing you again at some point as well it's possible it does may cross thank you I'll be like oh my God they're in my head they they know they know that was a song and so they put that song on the radio and it's all everything revolves around me or you know and this happened well sometimes happens today you know I'm I'm thinking of someone in my head someone under there like on the street	put most people off even my Swedish friends Sten the Viking he backed out at the last minute I couldn't get people to go with me all the other plants had fallen to bits because they depended on other people I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars and I needed equipment for that and here's a really important point I guess as bad as this world is you've got to try to find good people if you ask somebody if you asked your friend yeah and and you're finished you'll manage to get a phone call and say friend it's been here um I need you to get um I don't know four hacksaw blades and cut them into the dowel rods of a of a poster and then paint it all up and send it in a huge package with this that cable ties gaffer tape but disguise all that how many people are going to do it turn around wouldn't believe it Ben called me what his neck yeah he's screwed but anyway he wouldn't believe but he wants me to do this that now people don't do it but Michael on the other hand our business partner wouldn't even let me explain he hadn't heard from me in 18 months he said David don't explain I'm sure we could get cut off tell me the important part now where do I have to be and	-5	7	4	put most people off even my Swedish friends Sten the Viking he backed out at the last minute I couldn't get people to go with me all the other plants had fallen to bits because they depended on other people I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars and I needed equipment for that and here's a really important point I guess as bad as this world is you've got to try to find good people if you ask somebody if you asked your friend yeah and and you're finished you'll manage to get a phone call and say friend it's been here um I need you to get um I don't know four hacksaw blades and cut them into the dowel rods of a of a poster and then paint it all up and send it in a huge package with this that cable ties gaffer tape but disguise all that how many people are going to do it turn around wouldn't believe it Ben called me what his neck yeah he's screwed but anyway he wouldn't believe but he wants me to do this that now people don't do it but Michael on the other hand our business partner wouldn't even let me explain he hadn't heard from me in 18 months he said	David don't explain I'm sure we could get cut off tell me the important part now where do I have to be and	0,-5,8	2,1,6	0	-5	8	2	1	6
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyZyHHexx7s	4,101	oyZyHHexx7s	2022-12-07 00:00:00	even though I was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off I couldn't get people to go with me I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars [Music] it's great to have you back David obviously we've met before but for anyone who doesn't know who you are for new listeners or new viewers could you give us a brief introduction to what you are famous for well I suppose uh most well known for uh having escaped to prison in Thailand in Bangkok uh the biggest one they have there clong Prim it uh wasn't something I did frivolously I was going to be executed within a couple of weeks so it seemed like a good time to leave okay now um we're going to get into that in a bit more detail but one thing that I remember about you from last time is you're the most incredible talker and we took away the inter the initial interview we've done with you and ended up having to make it into two long episodes because you have a lot of different very colorful uh experiences so do forgive me if I Jimmy us through oh no I can understand that I mean the only place I never talk is in the police station I always like some of my uh work colleagues took um what was it one slap to get them talking but five to shut them up oh okay so let's go right back to the beginning um you were born in the UK and then I believe you emigrated to Australia well um it was all a family thing yes I was born in basewater in London I spent the first few years of my life then uh there but my parents broke up divorced and I went with my mother to Australia with my older sister so I don't have any really very early memories of London apart from some old eight millimeter movie footage of me learning to walk in Hyde Park my dad was waving a five pound note in front of my face and I was making every effort to grab it I continued that behavior for many many years afterwards returned to Australia um finished some schooling um got really contrasting jobs I worked in an adult Agency for a while um but also before that I was got a job in a cinema now it was the and under literally an underground place but it was there that I got introduced to a bunch of crooks um some of the girls there had boyfriends that I used to run down with um strange boxes or bits of money or fur coats and then wink at me bolt out the back door pursued by often policemen undercover ones of course whom we'd misdirect somewhere but that Circle they were um safe crackers and they really didn't trust Outsiders and didn't much like the sound of me but because of I demonstrated a couple of things by being look everybody was really very anti-authority then I I don't mean hostile but for people now they they wouldn't have experienced that in the uh late 60s 70s we were so snotty and arrogant we really thought we were going to change the world and that um the laws were all nothing and the way to change them was to break them well that was the kind of vanity we had so um when I got to know the safe crackers uh better there was something really interesting I mean I didn't like the idea you know stealing things seemed a bit tacky but on the other hand they kind of all needed the money from the from their backgrounds and everything but that wasn't so much the the interest it was the technicalities of getting into these things okay um they used to drill through the top um having anchored it with the drill with clamps and and put a kind of little lens inside a cystoscope used in medicine and watch the the wheels turning around this is the old kind of old-fashioned Hollywood style it was yeah and um behind the safe were three discs and you had to line them up and they'd once they got in they'd take the door with them so that the opposition the safe makers wouldn't know how they'd got in and it was a a constant battle between the manufacturers and them because they've come across new safes which had Special Metals in it that was mixed like a a crunchy nut bar very hard metals very soft ones so the drill bit would slip on them snap and you got a sense that this was almost like a game where um they would try something then try to beat them and they were very loyal to each other um they they never spoke out of school as it were um when I got involved with them I'd only have to if I had trouble I don't have to make one phone call and people would appear out of nowhere and I thought yeah this this is kind of better than the treacherous boys school that I I grew up in and how old were you at this point um 19 years old 19. so were you thinking you were making a conscious decision to move into illegal activities or at that point in time and at that point in the world did it feel like more of a kind of a bit of roguish fun would you say I was drawn to it anyway because it was interesting and um I didn't really have a lot of fear I think sometimes what we do or don't do is depending on how scary it seems yeah agreed um I was born with a low resting heart rate as they say you know if it's below 70 you're a risk taker I don't know why that is when the safe crackers retired they put some of their money into growing little crops of weed and so on but profit margin is is only through importing because like the price difference is cheap in the source countries expensive where it sells so because they couldn't do it they were almost throwing it down like a challenge like we don't know anybody who can do this and I thought well I traveled a lot um I didn't think it was going to be impossible um I thought the odds were in my phone and I looked it up I went to the library and sort of researched it a bit and where were you thinking which country Well they um they were very keen to get some um hashish from India or Nepal or somewhere okay I could see um it's bulky and there's packing problems so um they funded me and off I sailed now the operation my first operation was so deplorably bad I'm barely 20 years old I my cunning plan which involved a big piece of exported Machinery which had weights in it so the weights would come out the cash would go in it would weigh the same being returned and it was a piece of Television equipment or something that went South immediately when I didn't realize that I would have to pay a huge deposit in duty to even bring it in as a demo machine so forget that I ended up in short meeting a guy in a money exchange section of a bank I was there because I ran out and I had to send asking for more from the boys and I met him and he wasn't involved in any of this but he soon became that just he managed to get me six kilos of hash I took the 1952 ancient Grundig radio from his parents house the Shelf there guttered the thing like a fish wrapped it up and he had to get cling film in those days think of this before you travel arriving with a suitcase full of cling film doesn't look good I suppose but uh wedged it in there and then just flew back to Sydney now you can imagine what happened well just before we get on to what happened you know one thing that strikes me is what year was would this have been this was uh 77 77 so it's amazing think that back then if someone was going to India for the first time now they could go on Google Maps they could research it or they could find out who they could find phone numbers contacts they could be put in contact with people before they've even set off whereas you must have at that age at that time been going in slightly blind you know touching down in a foreign country that you didn't know well no contacts was that not quite daunting well what was more um troubling with um how everything would fail and then I'd have to um you know come up with another plan what context somebody I knew um um there were no bank robber who joined the hare krishnas and fled to India right and I had his name and and the ashram in Delhi where where he was was supposed to have been uh I didn't really catch up with him on that trip but okay sure so so then you get back to Australia with your radio that is now full to the brim with and I get stopped you you did get stopped okay I could stop because uh I'm I'm on a British passport um and it's the only trip I've ever done and I'm that age I'd stop me oh fatherly type was at the Customs desk now the the systems were different in those days um it was Sydney too which is very and certainly was very relaxed back then right he opened the suitcase uh there was nothing in there except a pair of socks there's a towel wrapping up this massive radio which he lifted up so it was buckled at the sides little red packets poking out oh it smelled like a hedgehog for a patchouliers okay not much of a disguise um he let me go he uh put it back looked around to make sure that none of his workmates were watching him being so soft um and then turned to me and said you're going back there you're going to do this again [Music] all right you can take your we'll call it a radio shall we get out of here what he thought I realized later was that he didn't want the whole grammar of the day arresting me filling out papers and it would have been a a long time plus I guess being a dad he thought if I he's obviously an idiot you're right if I send him into Gladiator Academy or it wasn't really like that in those days but certainly contact center um the prison what am I doing um well I guess uh he was hopeful you know I whilst out of there must have smuggling me but I experienced then what um I got years later which was kind of a real Downer after you know having got nowhere with The Hare krishnas and and cultivated the shoeshine boys and had my money stolen at Amex uh by some Scallywags in Delhi all sorts of Little Adventures over there in India and nonetheless made it it's kind of like that's all there is to it I I didn't really want to give it to anyone um sort of felt like you didn't have a big moment of no a bit of money that came earlier that's handy right uh I paid back what I owed and settled up for for the next thing so but once that was started when you sorry I interrupted you go oh I was just going to say it to finish it even though they'd funded me the guys were very surprised to see me back but at all at all oh you made it oh because some of them say oh you'll just run away with it uh even if that's what he's doing who knows what he's doing you know and then I could see sitting around you can imagine there's like a table full of well like three guys and then a kind of Darkness shrouded over that room I thought uh it's not valuable enough to kill me you know what what is this mood why did you bring that well that's what you've been talking about yeah you could have loaded that with cane or smack or something you guys we say nothing but terrible things about a class or heavy drugs that don't want to know about it right and I could read then that wait a minute there we're all might be guys together and having fun getting into the safe and whatnot but there was a kind of different it was something a very strong lesson I'd have to be thoughtful about that um there could be times where things didn't work out not necessarily that my safety was at risk I didn't see it that way but I knew that there were Ruthless People right okay yeah so you got an insight into a mindset that had been a bit below the surface it was there I just chose not to see it but um I then went on to you know refine everything and Vary everything and then did you after that first time did you were you still working sort of for them or did you immediately well when you wake up on your own when things um I picked up and there was enough money around out of uh out of strategy rather than just being a nice guy I gave my partners a kind of thank you bonus from the next thing that I did but I did that all myself right so it was almost like a yeah separation and I wanted to go back to the my hippie friends anyway they were a little less it wasn't that they were scary but but that didn't last because they were maybe friends might be all right but they will certainly careless and stupid but from from that point onwards after that initial Journey was that you then into the world of smuggling I thought this won't last forever you only need one setback and that changes it I probably made quite a lot of money and I could have got out but and I should have gotta you know I have couriers a leak from one of the the couriers brought the police to me and here was the problem with it it was at first I scattered now I was married to my first wife then clearly Italian girl her dad had restaurants I grabbed her I had a secret drawer with extra passports in it some money ended up four plane Journeys later in um off the Bahamas had the skipper of a day rent yacht and take me out to an island and nobody had ever been on before it was empty sat there on a towel I thought hmm the level of surveillance I had means it's quite a big operation they're funded and I checked with a lawyer before the bigger the money they spent the more determined they'll be stay away or go back I mean I don't know why would anybody do this uh well I wasn't broke um I didn't have to there was no pressure on me the more I went through the problems the more attractive the whole thing is uh she didn't like it much well again do you think because it was a puzzle to be solved because um arrogance really we've gone from basically someone who was kind of mildly interested in making a group of people meeting a group of um safe hackers to someone who pulled off their first thing and then we've jumped to someone who has people working for them and and now is no longer taking the risk themselves now the police are on to you and you're on this desert island well small island and you're thinking about going back into it was this like a turning point in your life in terms of going you know because the other option I suppose was to go straight but were you just more it was that just not an option for you I'd gone to my lawyer Ralph he said look this is what I picked up because I my travel agent had tipped me to a couple of detectives that come in he traveled again while I was in on the phone okay uh actually they're all innocent really yeah you know and and gave him a long list of names um they wanted travel details for and a telephone number which I traced uh to um a private office building which had been rented by state and federal police they were so distrusting of their own they didn't want to even run this thing from um regular police headquarters my lawyer said well what you sure it's you said Ralph look at the list of names there's 30 there I'm 26 of them passports are a lot easier to get back then than there now so you had 26 aliases that you were traveling on yeah right okay um and I described where they were he said David they are funded well they're not bear this in mind but although I what they won't get me with anything they're funded you think they're going to walk away after a year and say oh sorry boss you spend a million dollars and uh nothing doing they don't work like that but this is how stubborn I was I thought because he said the only thing you can do is disappear for at least a couple of years and then you can come back if that's what you want and of course I had justifications for it I thought okay I'll I'll build up a bit more money and then I'll disappear but um it was only after things went terribly badly that I realized I shouldn't play like this anymore what it was they um because the challenge just kept coming so now so did you go back to Australia I went back to Australia and and when I retired within three months right but they weren't waiting for you to arrest you or no no they wanted they wanted something solid okay [Music] um I won't go into the long machinations of it all but um somebody we knew uh was getting things from a Thai Courier and he got arrested he sold us out to the police so that that The Courier would now come to us and I always have some solid evidence right he would bring things but we got away with that because that was another challenge but the police got tired of all this arrested me no drugs of course so it was a difficult case the worst kind of case is that where there's no solid evidence and in a way it's better to go to court where you've got a Smoking Gun and a dead body on the ground because at least you know where you are but where there's nothing tangible and it's conspiracies and this was a huge trial six months long what is that 119 Witnesses 6 000 pages of uh telephone intercept massive thing won't made it worse too and I think this was um would change things for me um the pressure was put on for confessions but it'd be silly to confess and you can't confess on somebody else's behalf can you that's not nice um lots of the family were arrested even my mother was taken and it went oh wow just to put pressure on uh did she know what you did oh she had an idea right okay I mean I used to have bin liners full of money I'd leave behind the fridge yeah you don't get that in the cinema do you not done not a very good day you know uh because they arrested so many people now when they arrested our wives and my business partner Michael his wife just had a baby it was we had to do a deal here I didn't want to but I was going to say I said to Michael look I know you don't like it but we'll play to it get the girls out of trouble we'll Escape that's a good challenge that way [Music] um but unfortunately um the intelligence section put an arsonist Informer in with the girls to get some information her fire was lit uh burnt down the women's prison and my wife and my business partner's wife was were killed uh that's awful and so the Informer that they put in there yeah why did they pick an arsonist for Daniel writer name was I don't know why I remember that after 40 years God so that's quite a big that was oh and and just uh to make things worse the story put about town to scare the careers into talking because they wouldn't speak was that we'd we were killing off all the witnesses and starting with our own family where does that come from um we ended up in a super max prison nightmarish electronic zoo with two inch glass and electronic doors and insane inmates held 48 death rate 27 people a year died in that little supermax going to court in Chains with a SWAT team taking it it was so so much Michael fell to pieces he was just a wreck he didn't make it uh he survived the jail but died when he got out the only way I could survive all of that was to strip away everything I you know I found myself in the supermax concrete everything's concrete the bed everything there's no everything's still just with the tape player from my lure listening to the the tapes the bug tapes the microphones in my house I could play back my life for the last six months clearly you're moving from room to room taking telephone calls she was crying about something I didn't know what I never know and David that's gone immerse yourself in the worst that they have you will not survive this otherwise trial sort of went not so good acquitted of most things but convicted enough 10 years difficult imprisonment but I the only way I could deal with it was to say did I want revenge that was more my fault I brought this about I got her in there I mean a family of a very kind to me about it considering I wouldn't be but it doesn't matter in Chains and super Mech strip it all away it is nothing everyone is a potential enemy everything it just nothing mattered win the day win the night I mean this is a place we had to fill in a book to get some toilet paper the showers were in front of them in a glass box um if you went on a visit they'd zip you up and lock you in a suit so you had no pockets there was after that and her death I felt like there was nothing that could affect me you're wrong about these things you know we're human but I got out and they were there they even visited me to say we'll be on you when you get out the police yeah we enjoyed the old days didn't you yeah I said pretending you know and just to make the point that they were there when I got out um I I'd done a whole lot of Woodwork in the prison in the last place I was at carving intricate things making these really great trick Chinese boxes with beeswax they intercepted the van that was taking it from the prison back to my house and smashed it all to pieces I put it in a box just to say don't think that we will never be here we can do what we want so I decided to leave the country I was um how old am I by then let's work it out yeah uh I started all this Mischief when I was about 18 got arrested at 22. 23 uh um 16 years 17 years either under surveillance or in bad prisons got out and I'm under surveillance again um so how old so you're number 37 about 37. so that's already you know that's a big chunk of Life there but you've lost quite a lot of it to prison or surveillance well at no point now were you like okay and I wasn't a normal person uh really when I got out because of the experience of prison I'd already stripped most of Myself Away to deal with the death of the Superman yeah and and watching people be burnt to death in the place which was frequent somebody had contact glue pulled all over him and then satellite oh God Gods came in and the other one's standing there with a Tire swinging it around to make sure to let him burn let him burn Jesus Barry's name was testicles swollen like apples but black okay he died two hours later in hospital anyway um that was regular account to deal with that I'd already strip things away so when I got a little apartment when I got out and my mother had arranged things for me when they were there when they'd leave rude messages on my answer machine when they'd be behind me everywhere I thought all right I remember this David it never ends if you want to survive go back to the way you were you know in in the super max Anything Can Happen anytime but I didn't want to live like that um I got a fresh passport and most elaborate means um I could spend a week explaining how that came into existence but I went to Thailand to pick up some money I had three days there it was just before Christmas I left at that time on purpose so that they maybe I thought maybe it's their weak point that they want to have families in their life just at Christmas I've parked my mum's car and and left the keys somewhere for her nobody knew were you not meant to leave the country no no no licenses oh I see we're just going to take a minute here to talk about a sponsor of this show which is manscaped we were sent a package to try out by manscaped but Conor one of our producers is already a fan of the brand I believe yeah absolutely I've been using manscape for a little while now and Ben as you know it's that time of year people start asking you what you want for Christmas and I would say that a great gift for a man especially one that might have everything is the manscape performance package 4.0 so what's in that so you get the lawnmower 4.0 electric trimmer you get some anti-chafe boxer shorts which I can vouch for as well as a couple of other grooming products that smell great fantastic well it sounds like a five-star review from uconnor absolutely so Connor you were talking about the performance package there's loads of other great gift ideas such as the hygiene bundle all available at manscape.com com and all gifts that men will genuinely love to receive this Christmas if you are a listener of this podcast you get 20 off and free shipping all you have to do is go to manscape.com and use the code minutes that's manscape.com m-i-n-u-t-e-s minutes um so why are we doing that the risk is it worth it I didn't want to play anymore right I wanted to uh see if I could have a something resembling like a a real life just to find some corner of the world plan was to to return to London and oh so you were leaving forever I'm leaving forever okay I see nobody knew it um I had a couple of hundred thousand in Thailand I thought um which I returned to pick up um now I suppose people say this Crooks always say this most unusual circumstances led to my arrest well they were but then again they always are aren't they or you wouldn't be telling the story or you wouldn't have been arrested but um the USDA was involved lots of people lots of players uh no real drugs are found uh they did an airport sweep and listed me up for like an ounce of something and a false passport or two the money I had just disappeared into pockets but those when I arrived there I felt so free I knew this identity was good I just like floating on air really I slipped out of my protective mode you know that when we stick to the plan and all right you don't want to leave I should have even stayed there for six months just get some sensible view of the world but I I didn't uh and as I went to the airport I could see they were all around me and I melted back into the crowd and disappeared again I thought well that serves me right for changing that attitude I'd had from back in super max and I just glaze over concentrate on the details which I needed to do because when I went to make a phone call later at the travel agency uh waiting it was so depressing being thrown into the Thai prison and I had some idea what they'd be like um people I'd known had been arrested there I knew this much it never won a case you never get out well you get out and what were they arresting you for was it the the uh the passport um what did the the the money wasn't I mean what did they leave 4 000 or something like that right and there are airports we put um I saw the guy walking in with it in a plastic bag you know whatever people throw on the floor before they go through security there was a bit of hash this usual bits of weed but what they really wanted was um this 25 grams of heroin because that would finish me off a policeman um Australian one said was that yours yeah yeah sure it was he said I didn't think so what would you be carrying around that for I mean if it was 10 kilos I might understand but but that was enough the death penalty and was it yours no no no so where where would that come from if you do they do a sweep every afternoon at five o'clock they get tons of it right I get you know nervous passengers go up and then they change their minds and they throw it in the toilet too and were they just did do you think they believed it was yours or do you think they were just going this is we need to give him this bit no no I think they were using it hoping to that would be good to hold and maybe they could get something else find out what I was up to who I was seeing because I had met um somebody who's whose uncle was a big player right so there was there was I think they were optimistic there might be more Camp come out of it but but there wasn't but what difference did it make and I wasn't really worried about um those drugs or the death penalty I wanted to die anyway frankly my first escape plans from there had this I imagine getting out to find the Privacy to kill myself right I wanted to go to the dusa Tony Hotel I knew Which floor and where to get onto the roof I'd taken photographs from there many years before um they were you simply couldn't get a moment's piece dormitories with 150 guys in them screaming all night um we can't even take a crap in peace in the Thai prison We're Not Afraid though of what killing myself well no I mean I don't know being brutalized by the guards or the inmates so well I knew enough about Thailand to to know that it was a little more comic than than bad there were very bad things happen they used to um they've beaten people a couple of people get beaten to death every day there but it's a very big prison we have to get that in proportion I only wish they wouldn't use the food trolley to take the dead bodies out because um you know they don't clean them up um and could you speak the language or were you quite it was a quite different communication uh not really uh and the few languages that uh pitch up in my travels I always found that even if you know them it's better to pretend you don't okay um because they'll talk about you behind your back you know certainly didn't live it on there was I I just couldn't see any point I'd gone to such elaborate precautions on this trip um it just shouldn't have happened and I even got away from the airport and still it happened oh all that confidence that I'll figure a way out I didn't care anymore I just had enough um and I remember seeing an old guy there if you had to go to court they put change on you and um you'd line up on the ground now this old guy I was looking at him because I don't know why a big soundtrack went past he had the presence of mind to push his head under that sand truck and oh it twisted it around popped like a watermelon being dropped on the ground oh my God guys very annoyed told the trustees to get that thing away out of sight was that nice thing called it I thought you Brave bastard you yeah you've got the guts to do that was it not quite a disturbing thing to witness no it was shocking because if you haven't seen it kind of thing up close and I happen to be looking um it was uh but that that's how I felt about it but I was saved In The End by a con man and people say a lot of bad things about economy they do yes they do and they uh you can't be trusted uh they are rottenness and they will cheat you just because they're the Scorpion that's in their nature uh but sometimes they're just what you need and this rather smooth um Bostonian American um who spoke Thai and really knew his way around and I you know I thought the somewhere in this huge prison there'd be an enclave of rich and corrupt foreigners with loads of money and there'd be luxuries it wasn't there was nobody of any importance in there you know a couple of big sacrifices had been made but um a couple of very rich policemen who were in the hospital in intensive care but other than that it was it was just um the people who reached the absolute bottom Drifters in Asia who did run after run and then got sacrificed to the machine they'd get about four jobs a big Syndicate there operating careers had run four times bang they'd shot them to the police they'd be gone oh God they will turn told the same story and it was Joe it was this guest house it was such and such identical and um and and at this point had you been sentenced to death had you received oh no no no I I was trying to avoid that yeah once I came to my senses because the the Boston con had so many wonderful schemes medical thing to get me bail and know some way of a escape with a go to court I get snatched from there I had villains come over and and scope out the court too because there was a way I thought of getting out of there from the lift that took you up to the the building uh snatched from the middle as you go down changed into a different set of clothes but they all got scared thing about um some of our most loved uh and fearless villains they're pretty good in the local manner but you throw them into a place like that where people carry machine guns and shoot at will just for the hell of it not so confident they like the upper edge of being snakes um so I couldn't convince anybody to really help and it was just as well um and two and a half years passed there in this prison it's a long time it was I sort of perked up a little bit pulled myself together started exercising um got a couple of ATM cards over hadn't my favorite god um he was in charge of the the building bought myself a room renovated um so you had you bought a room within the prison that was just for you rented that's rented right you know and is that an official thing that you're allowed to do right there are places in the world where it's official right but you had an influx of money that you could pay for special treats you could survive there on um less than 500 pounds a month and be king oh wow was this the 70s or the 80s now by the way we're into um 90 495 19 the 495 because what's reported about you is that during the 80s you were a multi-millionaire um is that accurate um now what do we call a multi-millionaires a young halfway with a million and a quarter on a glass coffee table and looks around the living room and thinks I've got to get a sofa one of these days um oh goes to the car auctions in the morning buys a big yank tank with a 427 Chevy engine in it um drives it around makes his own car parking spaces you know we're smashing the front in backing the other one pushing the other cars out of the way um oh stoned off my head most of the time uh if I wasn't stunned enough I'd take a few mandracks just to colludes icing on the cake um so I didn't take care of the money and the money didn't take care of me so I guess I'm like the reason I the reason I asked was because it must have been quite a stark change going from a very rich existence to basically somewhere where you basically couldn't pay for anything initially and it was a very poor existence but I guess from what you're saying there it's not like you felt like you were Rich at the time um I've made that contrast a few times when I had my first big arrest I couldn't as I was in a cold near lightless cell of blue stone and horse hair mattress about two inches thick and wrecking a piss I would think back to the night before when I had my important to tell in huge bed and Irish linen sheets and swimming pool out there and um and we had to kind of shake off the contrast but that rubber banding must must have been hard to take because it's you're going from basically the aspiration of almost everyone where you're talking about just buying cars outright and having a swimming pool to a piss stinking bed you know it must be it was you know it's odd thing about it was providing I could see a way out a work a way out I didn't so much mind oh okay um I really trained myself to expect my whatever world I built up and and this happened several times I've done it five times had a new identity New Life new surroundings even new people and dang they're gone and every time it got worse um and there was even Thailand was desperately important because even though it was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it um you know I was somebody that nobody minded killing um so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah there's nothing like the prospect of being executed by a machine gun which is the way they did it God is that what it would have been wow yeah you know oh they'd have three guards all with a bit of string on the trigger and they'd all pull it once so that none of them could be condemned in the Buddhist sense of sin oh they don't even actually right I see it caused the bullet that finished you off oh I see so you're in the Thai prison you've been sentenced to uh rather unpleasant death penalty um how did you start coming up with this famous plan for escaping um desperation it was the last plan that looked like it was going to work um there were probably about 20 plans considered um everything from being the prison held I've since found out it holds 22 000 people oh my God in 10 sub prisons uh there's a women's section there's a young offenders there's a special reminder a drug unit all of that um just a wild place it has everything it even had a prisoner-run shop where you could extract you could borrow money against your account and cash anyway um one of the plans involved being welded into a VW Combi van in the prisons Auto Workshop which would be picked up early Monday morning and I'd be driven out and that another one was um there were several courtroom ones and you couldn't just pay your way out no no it's just you could pay to have a mobile phone which in those days was a rare thing but they were around um you could pay for a bottle of clong uh whiskey you could pay I'm sure you could pay to get a a girl in your room if you could work out what a room was that a whole section full of ladyboys there and got a building full of them they used to open it up on Saturdays so um you could pay for anything but not to leave they couldn't cover that and they couldn't trust each other you would need 25 30 different guards paid off and and the gods of visitors I mean too many guides no that wouldn't work and they looked at it as a kind of betrayal only if I saw two escapes attempts there one group of uh straight kids and a Singaporean got out of their cell incredibly turned themselves into the sleeping God when they'd all lied to each other about what they didn't have you know the ropes and ways out because they're it was so outraged that they'd spoiled the guys jobs they beat them to death slowly tortured them over three months to death having put them in little code lockers the soy they call them drag them out in elephant chains every day and batter them senseless uh internal bleeding usually did it um look I've got a bowl of rice and a painting to poo in that was it um even the water was it was just too horrible so if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off even my Swedish friends Sten the Viking he backed out at the last minute I couldn't get people to go with me all the other plants had fallen to bits because they depended on other people I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars and I needed equipment for that and here's a really important point I guess as bad as this world is you've got to try to find good people if you ask somebody if you asked your friend yeah and and you're finished you'll manage to get a phone call and say friend it's been here um I need you to get um I don't know four hacksaw blades and cut them into the dowel rods of a of a poster and then paint it all up and send it in a huge package with this that cable ties gaffer tape but disguise all that how many people are going to do it turn around wouldn't believe it Ben called me what his neck yeah he's screwed but anyway he wouldn't believe but he wants me to do this that now people don't do it but Michael on the other hand our business partner wouldn't even let me explain he hadn't heard from me in 18 months he said David don't explain I'm sure we could get cut off tell me the important part now where do I have to be and what do I have to bring no that's a friend um and so I've always tried to do the same for the others that I've known like that um but um I did get the equipment together that I needed and everything um about escapes from a big prison is not like your hope it's going to be you know I turned it out walked around the streets and it had streets inside it um and timed it with my trusty Casio and it was so I knew roughly how long it would take to get me but the night's a different world I'm a prisoner I'm only used to noise during the day even the fan chopping around in the Cell at night it's so quiet everything I did squeaked and rattled and twisted I came across a panel that had to be a nail had to come out and that and they'll protest it and scream their wrench out of the way it took um uh seven or eight worlds uh sorry seven or eight walls to cross over I say worlds because they really were every building was a different thing and I got lost and I went past the terminal AIDS Ward that building hundreds of guys all die and I could smell it before I got there because this necrotic Rotting Flesh and I couldn't resist looking in I'm carrying this huge long ladder made out of bamboo poles and fake picture frames gaffer taped along the center [Music] um and I looked up and I saw all these little faces in the Moonlight wrapped in so much pain and despair they didn't have the energy to cry out to the guards if they'd been in any other prisoners they would have the trustees there were absolute scum of the earth had whistled little uniforms sell the drugs one day and the rest of the guys for it the next all of that um and it was only by um well I only got to the outer wall by Dawn and if somebody had been with me I wouldn't have made it either you wouldn't have no imagine I've taken all night to get there and at each point where this something was unexpected I've had to dream up something and I get a little basic toolkit and I sometimes I'd have to sacrifice part of my ladder to make a hook to pull down barbed wire and the technique for using the thing was awkward you had to prop it walk up drop down the other side so you're twisting over the walls like that manual is entirely barbed wire so I had to go underneath it covered in mud the the last one was really too high and there was a Mars bar Creek the the moat that ran around I did you know if I was with somebody else we'd be arguing wouldn't we oh Spa Creek oh it was full of turds bombing around it was caught out of the sewer yeah you did ask um illustrative okay we're just gonna take a quick break from the show to talk about a sponsor of this episode better help better help is an online Counseling Service which connects people to therapists and counselors I'm joined by one of our producers bryony is counseling something you've had experience with do you know what it's interesting because when I was growing up the same kind of challenges in life would happen but people wouldn't necessarily go to therapy or talk about therapy and I feel like since uh maybe my late teens early 20s people are starting to go to therapy and talking about it and I have definitely used it in my life and it's been massively beneficial same and do you because I think one of the things that people often mistake they think it's just for big things yeah but what's the other experience of that thing I think life always throws you know small challenges and large challenges and sometimes the big things need talking about but actually you know starting a new school or starting a new job can rile up that same level of anxiety and it's just really helpful to be able to talk to someone about it who is completely impartial not involved in your life and just kind of a safe space I guess to just say whatever you want to say you completely agree as the world's largest therapy service better help as much 3 million people with professionally licensed and vetted therapists available 100 online plus it's affordable just fill out a brief questionnaire to match with a therapist if things aren't clicking you can easily switch to a new therapist anytime it couldn't be simpler no waiting rooms no traffic no endless searching for the right therapist learn more and save 10 of your first month at betterhelp.com minutes with that's betterhelp help help.com minutes with um now there was one way of oh Beyond marsburg create this a foot and a half of land before this huge huge wall you've got to get a ladder that's too heavy to carry too imbalanced to do anything with but you've got a bit of rope how do you get it to the other side of Mars bar which has all got tangled barb wire in that so it'll catch get it in place and up against the wall when you've got no ground to to walk on now there is a way and uh I guess people have to listen to me describe it either to you or in my book okay fine but too long to tell here sure but um I could see the glow of dawn as I got to the top which had electricity running through it too just to make it the top of the wall dead yeah yeah wow but um my friend who um was in there a bit of a technician is to belong to the anarchist Society in in Britain how would you belong to a society that has rules when you anyway putting that aside he did tell me that it would only be 240 volts but to be careful um and just managed to get over that and because the original plan was to um oh there was an outer moat beyond that of 20 meters I had my clothes ready to go into a plastic bag swim the moat but just as well I didn't um because all it turned out all the guards houses were over the other side of that moat this would not be a place to go but I cleaned myself up threw some clothes on and I one of the jobs that I didn't do but I was supposed to be doing was working in the Umbrella Factory so I paid a local boy to do it um I've got a pop-up umbrella from there I thought you know you really get a perspective about I want to just simple discrimination but being an outsider a foreigner the way sometimes people feel picked upon you know we were called the white trash and we were in in Chains and everything so I knew I had to cover my face in the popular did it and I managed to get to a place where a passport was hidden and to the airport and still had a working ATM card to get me out of the country into Singapore so did you end up with the umbrella did you walk out the front gate yeah I did I had some long trousers on now in their prisoners are not allowed to wear them so I had some khaki pants I thought they might as I walked around the the narrow path to the front gate it's still mote but a little Bridge I thought another figure it's a guard arriving late and sneaking in and I did I felt like Ripley an alien uh looking at thinking lucky lucky this is where it all ends doesn't it and I'm thinking that every moment and looking up and there was just enough light rain to justify the umbrella yeah I would learn later that was actually the not a rain from the gods but the spittle of their laughter because they had worse things in mind for me later on I mean it's so it's you know how many people are you aware how many people had escaped from that prison up to that point was it some every year or was it very infrequent none um the ties sometimes ran away when they were doing the gardens in Chains outside but Escape From Within um I'd known of in 20 years people could recall two attempts no foreigners um and they didn't trust the foreigners that's why they put you on the third floor right quite rightly yes and and how long had it taken you from like the beginning of the uh I started cutting at um 11 45 I paid a lot to get a light switch in there normally the lights are on all the time um okay and I said to my favorite guard oh yeah Ponting or whatever his name was I can't sleep with that thing I'll put a light switch in um um now they didn't say it as corruption or bribe taking they thought I'm doing this nice guy a favor and I'll be lucky because of it that's a very big thing over there you know if I get caught I'm unlucky then so they can batter me to death I mean sure it's kind of self-justifies any action that a human being might take so he started cutting around eight for 11 45 11 45 okay it's quite close through one bar by two in the morning oh God stencia listen we'll go on the next note I looked around and Kevin the American from Hawaii I didn't even know this was happening uh Mirage the Indian I know he's going to talk the next morning he was kakaria LA pantaloni right in the cell never mind holding out and not saying anything he would have it would have been finished I never would have made it and I guess I could have seen the missing bars potentially but I learned later on I actually caught up with somebody who was in there Scottish guy um he was there for selling ecstasy to the Two well-off Sons and Daughters of wealthy policemen anyway um he remembers they the guards couldn't figure that I'd left oh um he said David they ran around the the prison calling out your name it was Daniel Westlake while I was there Daniel Daniel they okay that somebody drew their attention to the cut bar in there yeah my Scottish friend said they the gods wanted they thought that okay he's got out he's angry about something uh Daniel but he's not actually he'll never get out he couldn't get it they never found the the ladder down the front wall until much much later so for um uh uh only one of them said oh we better check the airport they sent a couple of guys down there um just a little bit late and you were gone by then only just and remember man you've got a passport from a Chinese connection that you barely know but kind of like the cut of his jib but are you gonna put your life on the line on that and at every moment you're handing it over you know like the look of it yeah they don't like the look of it they're typing it up and you're thinking they got onto the computer have they done that bit uh have they entered my arrival was this I knew it was freshly stolen or sold off was only a few weeks old uh I mean not new was had only gone missing a few weeks earlier so it was still good but very nerve-wracking and I didn't have a photo I had to use my old um uh radio operators license that had a photograph in it to get reproduced into this thing so it was a bit grainy um and even on the plane it was delay and takeoff oh God and a mumbling Captain oh sorry um we we have a thing with one passenger I just asked what thing exactly soon enough thwomp doors to manual oh but I've got an hour you know looking at this passport I don't like it get to Singapore but I make it through so you got to Singapore yeah but you did end up going back to prison not a Thai prison but a different prison he's suggesting uh I did something wrong well I'm hoping you're going to tell me um no well okay uh I didn't stay in Singapore long because um I sat there in the hotel room unable to digest food not prepared by my own cook sure I in the hotel room in Singapore I realized you could work out who had left that day if they'd flown my air by simply going to the airport and children you work it out yourselves at home you check everybody who's left separate the foreigners hmm go a step further let's keep the Canadian and American the British the Australian New Zealand all the English-speaking passport Society um just to you know reduce the numbers take those names check with the embassies any of these names belong to lost or stolen passports that have been reported yeah five of them because that's Bangkok you know not the only Mischief maker there but nonetheless um they probably knew I could be who was I Charles McClintock hmm sorry Charles I had to borrow your passport but it was an essential cause but you're not wanted anymore of course are you no but I did get an unwelcome knock at the door some years ago uh by the police who um would it be to go excuse me Westminster Court known for the terrorist cases extradition or parking fights wow I'd lift the car anywhere lately so it was going to be one of the other two and it was extradition to Thailand I fought that case for two years and um it was difficult um but managed to effectively win in the end so the ties have dropped that one and I can't be taken back there I'm not wanted anywhere um I can nobody can do what they want but um I I'm not I haven't got anything pending I'm not in business I'm a bit cautious I even got sent something in the the mail a few years ago and I thought it was some gift from some halfway ambitious wombat in in Pakistan sending me a bit of dope thinking oh yeah there's a gift you might like that connection made no I mean people had my address all around the world ever since Danny Dyer um it turned out to be more complicated than that but um very dangerous for me to walk into a courtroom so I don't even imagine you're me and knock at the door oh here's something for you Ben you don't like the look of it you refuse it you're in court no matter why did you refuse that was it your name no you was up The Jig was up proof ladies and gentlemen oh you accept it ah you accepted it proof ladies and gentlemen wife saying to me Jeanette and whom I met in Pakistan years ago and she was there to fish out her husband on a two-ton hash deal he didn't make it anyway um she said throw the thing away I'm thinking in court again ladies and gentlemen he threw the stuff away I can't win so very cautious about all that kind of stuff um fair enough but I take it you won't be going for a holiday to Thailand anytime soon I didn't think so okay so how many do you know off the top of your head of your life how many years of your life have you spent in prison ultimately I did add it up once I'm 66 now and I suppose I've spent um but 22 years the thing that occurs to me and I met you before and I thought the same thing is like you obviously extremely intelligent extremely resourceful it can't be well but well anyway but do you regret the choices you made in terms of do you see those 22 years in prison as something you had no control over it's just the way the dice rolled or do you see them as a mistake on your part um worse than a mistake mistake suggest you didn't know uh where you were going wrong I was taking those steps into uh of a precipice that I'd defied there is no gravity I said I said I will work out something before I hit the ground um when I was It was kind of in stages when I was young it was just arrogance and and showing off and later on when everything was destroyed it was kind of I'd scraped away all of my life and would just go on um then in the third stage it was escaping away from places rebuilding up and being weakened every time it was taken away again um and do I regret it yeah I'm sure I um no you know some people say oh yeah but David just smuggled everything on Earth you scumbag you you know um think of the lives you've destroyed and the people you've heard ah and I go to start to explain that it's not quite black and white uh I mean I've had drug habits myself that I've carelessly allowed um but I thought what's the point anything I say we just sound like self-justification so well don't listen to me then you know but things that have happened that have taught me a lot it's interesting you say that because one of a lot of the comments on our well on the first video we did a lot of the comments where people saying someone needs to make a movie about this guy but a lot of the other comments were people saying he's so charismatic and likable but he must be a really dangerous person to have been involved with all these worlds for so long and um we've interviewed a couple of drug smugglers and I would say they're the ones that I've met have been the ones that probably are more someone you'd see is traditionally quite an obviously dangerous person you come across as very Charming charismatic roguish where do you see yourself on that scale do you see yourself as someone who was dangerous or do you see yourself as someone who's just moved from area to area as it occurred um kind of like this a dangerous I suppose what most people see that and you know if somebody was a problem for me would I find the best option to have them killed or not but really there always was a kind of Vestige of that's a failure if you can't think of anything better than to have them killed then then then what are you doing there's a million clever ways of solving your problems and that besides which there's always going to be people you can't kill everybody um not only that who killed the killers that you've got to do the killing you know you know they always say that about the quiet ones and all of that but it was the people who bothered to put up a smoke screen um they're establishing a um later Alibi a courtroom personality but I met him he didn't seem bothered by all of that why would he have him killed and those are the ones that um seem to be more dangerous and if I was such a dangerous person like that I certainly been absolute fool to break from that mold and say otherwise wouldn't it very true David it's great to see you again thank you so much for coming in always a pleasure yeah and I've Got a Feeling we'll be seeing you again at some point as well it's possible it does may cross thank you I'll be like oh my God they're in my head they they know they know that was a song and so they put that song on the radio and it's all everything revolves around me or you know and this happened well sometimes happens today you know I'm I'm thinking of someone in my head someone under there like on the street	turds bombing around it was caught out of the sewer yeah you did ask um illustrative okay we're just gonna take a quick break from the show to talk about a sponsor of this episode better help better help is an online Counseling Service which connects people to therapists and counselors I'm joined by one of our producers bryony is counseling something you've had experience with do you know what it's interesting because when I was growing up the same kind of challenges in life would happen but people wouldn't necessarily go to therapy or talk about therapy and I feel like since uh maybe my late teens early 20s people are starting to go to therapy and talking about it and I have definitely used it in my life and it's been massively beneficial same and do you because I think one of the things that people often mistake they think it's just for big things yeah but what's the other experience of that thing I think life always throws you know small challenges and large challenges and sometimes the big things need talking about but actually you know starting a new school or starting a new job can rile up that same level of anxiety and it's just really helpful to be able to talk to someone about it who is completely impartial not involved in your life and just kind of a safe space I guess to just say whatever you want to say you completely agree	6	2	4	I'm joined by one of our producers bryony is counseling something you've had experience with do you know what it's interesting because when I was growing up the same kind of challenges in life would happen but people wouldn't necessarily go to therapy or talk about therapy and I feel like since uh maybe my late teens early 20s people are starting to go to therapy and talking about it and I have definitely used it in my life and it's been massively beneficial	same and do you because I think one of the things that people often mistake they think it's just for big things yeah but what's the other experience of that thing I think life always throws you know small challenges and large challenges and sometimes the big things need talking about but actually you know starting a new school or starting a new job can rile up that same level of anxiety and it's just really helpful to be able to talk to someone about it who is completely impartial not involved in your life and just kind of a safe space I guess to just say whatever you want to say you completely agree	8,2,6	7,1,5	8	2	6	7	1	5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyZyHHexx7s	4,101	oyZyHHexx7s	2022-12-07 00:00:00	even though I was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off I couldn't get people to go with me I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars [Music] it's great to have you back David obviously we've met before but for anyone who doesn't know who you are for new listeners or new viewers could you give us a brief introduction to what you are famous for well I suppose uh most well known for uh having escaped to prison in Thailand in Bangkok uh the biggest one they have there clong Prim it uh wasn't something I did frivolously I was going to be executed within a couple of weeks so it seemed like a good time to leave okay now um we're going to get into that in a bit more detail but one thing that I remember about you from last time is you're the most incredible talker and we took away the inter the initial interview we've done with you and ended up having to make it into two long episodes because you have a lot of different very colorful uh experiences so do forgive me if I Jimmy us through oh no I can understand that I mean the only place I never talk is in the police station I always like some of my uh work colleagues took um what was it one slap to get them talking but five to shut them up oh okay so let's go right back to the beginning um you were born in the UK and then I believe you emigrated to Australia well um it was all a family thing yes I was born in basewater in London I spent the first few years of my life then uh there but my parents broke up divorced and I went with my mother to Australia with my older sister so I don't have any really very early memories of London apart from some old eight millimeter movie footage of me learning to walk in Hyde Park my dad was waving a five pound note in front of my face and I was making every effort to grab it I continued that behavior for many many years afterwards returned to Australia um finished some schooling um got really contrasting jobs I worked in an adult Agency for a while um but also before that I was got a job in a cinema now it was the and under literally an underground place but it was there that I got introduced to a bunch of crooks um some of the girls there had boyfriends that I used to run down with um strange boxes or bits of money or fur coats and then wink at me bolt out the back door pursued by often policemen undercover ones of course whom we'd misdirect somewhere but that Circle they were um safe crackers and they really didn't trust Outsiders and didn't much like the sound of me but because of I demonstrated a couple of things by being look everybody was really very anti-authority then I I don't mean hostile but for people now they they wouldn't have experienced that in the uh late 60s 70s we were so snotty and arrogant we really thought we were going to change the world and that um the laws were all nothing and the way to change them was to break them well that was the kind of vanity we had so um when I got to know the safe crackers uh better there was something really interesting I mean I didn't like the idea you know stealing things seemed a bit tacky but on the other hand they kind of all needed the money from the from their backgrounds and everything but that wasn't so much the the interest it was the technicalities of getting into these things okay um they used to drill through the top um having anchored it with the drill with clamps and and put a kind of little lens inside a cystoscope used in medicine and watch the the wheels turning around this is the old kind of old-fashioned Hollywood style it was yeah and um behind the safe were three discs and you had to line them up and they'd once they got in they'd take the door with them so that the opposition the safe makers wouldn't know how they'd got in and it was a a constant battle between the manufacturers and them because they've come across new safes which had Special Metals in it that was mixed like a a crunchy nut bar very hard metals very soft ones so the drill bit would slip on them snap and you got a sense that this was almost like a game where um they would try something then try to beat them and they were very loyal to each other um they they never spoke out of school as it were um when I got involved with them I'd only have to if I had trouble I don't have to make one phone call and people would appear out of nowhere and I thought yeah this this is kind of better than the treacherous boys school that I I grew up in and how old were you at this point um 19 years old 19. so were you thinking you were making a conscious decision to move into illegal activities or at that point in time and at that point in the world did it feel like more of a kind of a bit of roguish fun would you say I was drawn to it anyway because it was interesting and um I didn't really have a lot of fear I think sometimes what we do or don't do is depending on how scary it seems yeah agreed um I was born with a low resting heart rate as they say you know if it's below 70 you're a risk taker I don't know why that is when the safe crackers retired they put some of their money into growing little crops of weed and so on but profit margin is is only through importing because like the price difference is cheap in the source countries expensive where it sells so because they couldn't do it they were almost throwing it down like a challenge like we don't know anybody who can do this and I thought well I traveled a lot um I didn't think it was going to be impossible um I thought the odds were in my phone and I looked it up I went to the library and sort of researched it a bit and where were you thinking which country Well they um they were very keen to get some um hashish from India or Nepal or somewhere okay I could see um it's bulky and there's packing problems so um they funded me and off I sailed now the operation my first operation was so deplorably bad I'm barely 20 years old I my cunning plan which involved a big piece of exported Machinery which had weights in it so the weights would come out the cash would go in it would weigh the same being returned and it was a piece of Television equipment or something that went South immediately when I didn't realize that I would have to pay a huge deposit in duty to even bring it in as a demo machine so forget that I ended up in short meeting a guy in a money exchange section of a bank I was there because I ran out and I had to send asking for more from the boys and I met him and he wasn't involved in any of this but he soon became that just he managed to get me six kilos of hash I took the 1952 ancient Grundig radio from his parents house the Shelf there guttered the thing like a fish wrapped it up and he had to get cling film in those days think of this before you travel arriving with a suitcase full of cling film doesn't look good I suppose but uh wedged it in there and then just flew back to Sydney now you can imagine what happened well just before we get on to what happened you know one thing that strikes me is what year was would this have been this was uh 77 77 so it's amazing think that back then if someone was going to India for the first time now they could go on Google Maps they could research it or they could find out who they could find phone numbers contacts they could be put in contact with people before they've even set off whereas you must have at that age at that time been going in slightly blind you know touching down in a foreign country that you didn't know well no contacts was that not quite daunting well what was more um troubling with um how everything would fail and then I'd have to um you know come up with another plan what context somebody I knew um um there were no bank robber who joined the hare krishnas and fled to India right and I had his name and and the ashram in Delhi where where he was was supposed to have been uh I didn't really catch up with him on that trip but okay sure so so then you get back to Australia with your radio that is now full to the brim with and I get stopped you you did get stopped okay I could stop because uh I'm I'm on a British passport um and it's the only trip I've ever done and I'm that age I'd stop me oh fatherly type was at the Customs desk now the the systems were different in those days um it was Sydney too which is very and certainly was very relaxed back then right he opened the suitcase uh there was nothing in there except a pair of socks there's a towel wrapping up this massive radio which he lifted up so it was buckled at the sides little red packets poking out oh it smelled like a hedgehog for a patchouliers okay not much of a disguise um he let me go he uh put it back looked around to make sure that none of his workmates were watching him being so soft um and then turned to me and said you're going back there you're going to do this again [Music] all right you can take your we'll call it a radio shall we get out of here what he thought I realized later was that he didn't want the whole grammar of the day arresting me filling out papers and it would have been a a long time plus I guess being a dad he thought if I he's obviously an idiot you're right if I send him into Gladiator Academy or it wasn't really like that in those days but certainly contact center um the prison what am I doing um well I guess uh he was hopeful you know I whilst out of there must have smuggling me but I experienced then what um I got years later which was kind of a real Downer after you know having got nowhere with The Hare krishnas and and cultivated the shoeshine boys and had my money stolen at Amex uh by some Scallywags in Delhi all sorts of Little Adventures over there in India and nonetheless made it it's kind of like that's all there is to it I I didn't really want to give it to anyone um sort of felt like you didn't have a big moment of no a bit of money that came earlier that's handy right uh I paid back what I owed and settled up for for the next thing so but once that was started when you sorry I interrupted you go oh I was just going to say it to finish it even though they'd funded me the guys were very surprised to see me back but at all at all oh you made it oh because some of them say oh you'll just run away with it uh even if that's what he's doing who knows what he's doing you know and then I could see sitting around you can imagine there's like a table full of well like three guys and then a kind of Darkness shrouded over that room I thought uh it's not valuable enough to kill me you know what what is this mood why did you bring that well that's what you've been talking about yeah you could have loaded that with cane or smack or something you guys we say nothing but terrible things about a class or heavy drugs that don't want to know about it right and I could read then that wait a minute there we're all might be guys together and having fun getting into the safe and whatnot but there was a kind of different it was something a very strong lesson I'd have to be thoughtful about that um there could be times where things didn't work out not necessarily that my safety was at risk I didn't see it that way but I knew that there were Ruthless People right okay yeah so you got an insight into a mindset that had been a bit below the surface it was there I just chose not to see it but um I then went on to you know refine everything and Vary everything and then did you after that first time did you were you still working sort of for them or did you immediately well when you wake up on your own when things um I picked up and there was enough money around out of uh out of strategy rather than just being a nice guy I gave my partners a kind of thank you bonus from the next thing that I did but I did that all myself right so it was almost like a yeah separation and I wanted to go back to the my hippie friends anyway they were a little less it wasn't that they were scary but but that didn't last because they were maybe friends might be all right but they will certainly careless and stupid but from from that point onwards after that initial Journey was that you then into the world of smuggling I thought this won't last forever you only need one setback and that changes it I probably made quite a lot of money and I could have got out but and I should have gotta you know I have couriers a leak from one of the the couriers brought the police to me and here was the problem with it it was at first I scattered now I was married to my first wife then clearly Italian girl her dad had restaurants I grabbed her I had a secret drawer with extra passports in it some money ended up four plane Journeys later in um off the Bahamas had the skipper of a day rent yacht and take me out to an island and nobody had ever been on before it was empty sat there on a towel I thought hmm the level of surveillance I had means it's quite a big operation they're funded and I checked with a lawyer before the bigger the money they spent the more determined they'll be stay away or go back I mean I don't know why would anybody do this uh well I wasn't broke um I didn't have to there was no pressure on me the more I went through the problems the more attractive the whole thing is uh she didn't like it much well again do you think because it was a puzzle to be solved because um arrogance really we've gone from basically someone who was kind of mildly interested in making a group of people meeting a group of um safe hackers to someone who pulled off their first thing and then we've jumped to someone who has people working for them and and now is no longer taking the risk themselves now the police are on to you and you're on this desert island well small island and you're thinking about going back into it was this like a turning point in your life in terms of going you know because the other option I suppose was to go straight but were you just more it was that just not an option for you I'd gone to my lawyer Ralph he said look this is what I picked up because I my travel agent had tipped me to a couple of detectives that come in he traveled again while I was in on the phone okay uh actually they're all innocent really yeah you know and and gave him a long list of names um they wanted travel details for and a telephone number which I traced uh to um a private office building which had been rented by state and federal police they were so distrusting of their own they didn't want to even run this thing from um regular police headquarters my lawyer said well what you sure it's you said Ralph look at the list of names there's 30 there I'm 26 of them passports are a lot easier to get back then than there now so you had 26 aliases that you were traveling on yeah right okay um and I described where they were he said David they are funded well they're not bear this in mind but although I what they won't get me with anything they're funded you think they're going to walk away after a year and say oh sorry boss you spend a million dollars and uh nothing doing they don't work like that but this is how stubborn I was I thought because he said the only thing you can do is disappear for at least a couple of years and then you can come back if that's what you want and of course I had justifications for it I thought okay I'll I'll build up a bit more money and then I'll disappear but um it was only after things went terribly badly that I realized I shouldn't play like this anymore what it was they um because the challenge just kept coming so now so did you go back to Australia I went back to Australia and and when I retired within three months right but they weren't waiting for you to arrest you or no no they wanted they wanted something solid okay [Music] um I won't go into the long machinations of it all but um somebody we knew uh was getting things from a Thai Courier and he got arrested he sold us out to the police so that that The Courier would now come to us and I always have some solid evidence right he would bring things but we got away with that because that was another challenge but the police got tired of all this arrested me no drugs of course so it was a difficult case the worst kind of case is that where there's no solid evidence and in a way it's better to go to court where you've got a Smoking Gun and a dead body on the ground because at least you know where you are but where there's nothing tangible and it's conspiracies and this was a huge trial six months long what is that 119 Witnesses 6 000 pages of uh telephone intercept massive thing won't made it worse too and I think this was um would change things for me um the pressure was put on for confessions but it'd be silly to confess and you can't confess on somebody else's behalf can you that's not nice um lots of the family were arrested even my mother was taken and it went oh wow just to put pressure on uh did she know what you did oh she had an idea right okay I mean I used to have bin liners full of money I'd leave behind the fridge yeah you don't get that in the cinema do you not done not a very good day you know uh because they arrested so many people now when they arrested our wives and my business partner Michael his wife just had a baby it was we had to do a deal here I didn't want to but I was going to say I said to Michael look I know you don't like it but we'll play to it get the girls out of trouble we'll Escape that's a good challenge that way [Music] um but unfortunately um the intelligence section put an arsonist Informer in with the girls to get some information her fire was lit uh burnt down the women's prison and my wife and my business partner's wife was were killed uh that's awful and so the Informer that they put in there yeah why did they pick an arsonist for Daniel writer name was I don't know why I remember that after 40 years God so that's quite a big that was oh and and just uh to make things worse the story put about town to scare the careers into talking because they wouldn't speak was that we'd we were killing off all the witnesses and starting with our own family where does that come from um we ended up in a super max prison nightmarish electronic zoo with two inch glass and electronic doors and insane inmates held 48 death rate 27 people a year died in that little supermax going to court in Chains with a SWAT team taking it it was so so much Michael fell to pieces he was just a wreck he didn't make it uh he survived the jail but died when he got out the only way I could survive all of that was to strip away everything I you know I found myself in the supermax concrete everything's concrete the bed everything there's no everything's still just with the tape player from my lure listening to the the tapes the bug tapes the microphones in my house I could play back my life for the last six months clearly you're moving from room to room taking telephone calls she was crying about something I didn't know what I never know and David that's gone immerse yourself in the worst that they have you will not survive this otherwise trial sort of went not so good acquitted of most things but convicted enough 10 years difficult imprisonment but I the only way I could deal with it was to say did I want revenge that was more my fault I brought this about I got her in there I mean a family of a very kind to me about it considering I wouldn't be but it doesn't matter in Chains and super Mech strip it all away it is nothing everyone is a potential enemy everything it just nothing mattered win the day win the night I mean this is a place we had to fill in a book to get some toilet paper the showers were in front of them in a glass box um if you went on a visit they'd zip you up and lock you in a suit so you had no pockets there was after that and her death I felt like there was nothing that could affect me you're wrong about these things you know we're human but I got out and they were there they even visited me to say we'll be on you when you get out the police yeah we enjoyed the old days didn't you yeah I said pretending you know and just to make the point that they were there when I got out um I I'd done a whole lot of Woodwork in the prison in the last place I was at carving intricate things making these really great trick Chinese boxes with beeswax they intercepted the van that was taking it from the prison back to my house and smashed it all to pieces I put it in a box just to say don't think that we will never be here we can do what we want so I decided to leave the country I was um how old am I by then let's work it out yeah uh I started all this Mischief when I was about 18 got arrested at 22. 23 uh um 16 years 17 years either under surveillance or in bad prisons got out and I'm under surveillance again um so how old so you're number 37 about 37. so that's already you know that's a big chunk of Life there but you've lost quite a lot of it to prison or surveillance well at no point now were you like okay and I wasn't a normal person uh really when I got out because of the experience of prison I'd already stripped most of Myself Away to deal with the death of the Superman yeah and and watching people be burnt to death in the place which was frequent somebody had contact glue pulled all over him and then satellite oh God Gods came in and the other one's standing there with a Tire swinging it around to make sure to let him burn let him burn Jesus Barry's name was testicles swollen like apples but black okay he died two hours later in hospital anyway um that was regular account to deal with that I'd already strip things away so when I got a little apartment when I got out and my mother had arranged things for me when they were there when they'd leave rude messages on my answer machine when they'd be behind me everywhere I thought all right I remember this David it never ends if you want to survive go back to the way you were you know in in the super max Anything Can Happen anytime but I didn't want to live like that um I got a fresh passport and most elaborate means um I could spend a week explaining how that came into existence but I went to Thailand to pick up some money I had three days there it was just before Christmas I left at that time on purpose so that they maybe I thought maybe it's their weak point that they want to have families in their life just at Christmas I've parked my mum's car and and left the keys somewhere for her nobody knew were you not meant to leave the country no no no licenses oh I see we're just going to take a minute here to talk about a sponsor of this show which is manscaped we were sent a package to try out by manscaped but Conor one of our producers is already a fan of the brand I believe yeah absolutely I've been using manscape for a little while now and Ben as you know it's that time of year people start asking you what you want for Christmas and I would say that a great gift for a man especially one that might have everything is the manscape performance package 4.0 so what's in that so you get the lawnmower 4.0 electric trimmer you get some anti-chafe boxer shorts which I can vouch for as well as a couple of other grooming products that smell great fantastic well it sounds like a five-star review from uconnor absolutely so Connor you were talking about the performance package there's loads of other great gift ideas such as the hygiene bundle all available at manscape.com com and all gifts that men will genuinely love to receive this Christmas if you are a listener of this podcast you get 20 off and free shipping all you have to do is go to manscape.com and use the code minutes that's manscape.com m-i-n-u-t-e-s minutes um so why are we doing that the risk is it worth it I didn't want to play anymore right I wanted to uh see if I could have a something resembling like a a real life just to find some corner of the world plan was to to return to London and oh so you were leaving forever I'm leaving forever okay I see nobody knew it um I had a couple of hundred thousand in Thailand I thought um which I returned to pick up um now I suppose people say this Crooks always say this most unusual circumstances led to my arrest well they were but then again they always are aren't they or you wouldn't be telling the story or you wouldn't have been arrested but um the USDA was involved lots of people lots of players uh no real drugs are found uh they did an airport sweep and listed me up for like an ounce of something and a false passport or two the money I had just disappeared into pockets but those when I arrived there I felt so free I knew this identity was good I just like floating on air really I slipped out of my protective mode you know that when we stick to the plan and all right you don't want to leave I should have even stayed there for six months just get some sensible view of the world but I I didn't uh and as I went to the airport I could see they were all around me and I melted back into the crowd and disappeared again I thought well that serves me right for changing that attitude I'd had from back in super max and I just glaze over concentrate on the details which I needed to do because when I went to make a phone call later at the travel agency uh waiting it was so depressing being thrown into the Thai prison and I had some idea what they'd be like um people I'd known had been arrested there I knew this much it never won a case you never get out well you get out and what were they arresting you for was it the the uh the passport um what did the the the money wasn't I mean what did they leave 4 000 or something like that right and there are airports we put um I saw the guy walking in with it in a plastic bag you know whatever people throw on the floor before they go through security there was a bit of hash this usual bits of weed but what they really wanted was um this 25 grams of heroin because that would finish me off a policeman um Australian one said was that yours yeah yeah sure it was he said I didn't think so what would you be carrying around that for I mean if it was 10 kilos I might understand but but that was enough the death penalty and was it yours no no no so where where would that come from if you do they do a sweep every afternoon at five o'clock they get tons of it right I get you know nervous passengers go up and then they change their minds and they throw it in the toilet too and were they just did do you think they believed it was yours or do you think they were just going this is we need to give him this bit no no I think they were using it hoping to that would be good to hold and maybe they could get something else find out what I was up to who I was seeing because I had met um somebody who's whose uncle was a big player right so there was there was I think they were optimistic there might be more Camp come out of it but but there wasn't but what difference did it make and I wasn't really worried about um those drugs or the death penalty I wanted to die anyway frankly my first escape plans from there had this I imagine getting out to find the Privacy to kill myself right I wanted to go to the dusa Tony Hotel I knew Which floor and where to get onto the roof I'd taken photographs from there many years before um they were you simply couldn't get a moment's piece dormitories with 150 guys in them screaming all night um we can't even take a crap in peace in the Thai prison We're Not Afraid though of what killing myself well no I mean I don't know being brutalized by the guards or the inmates so well I knew enough about Thailand to to know that it was a little more comic than than bad there were very bad things happen they used to um they've beaten people a couple of people get beaten to death every day there but it's a very big prison we have to get that in proportion I only wish they wouldn't use the food trolley to take the dead bodies out because um you know they don't clean them up um and could you speak the language or were you quite it was a quite different communication uh not really uh and the few languages that uh pitch up in my travels I always found that even if you know them it's better to pretend you don't okay um because they'll talk about you behind your back you know certainly didn't live it on there was I I just couldn't see any point I'd gone to such elaborate precautions on this trip um it just shouldn't have happened and I even got away from the airport and still it happened oh all that confidence that I'll figure a way out I didn't care anymore I just had enough um and I remember seeing an old guy there if you had to go to court they put change on you and um you'd line up on the ground now this old guy I was looking at him because I don't know why a big soundtrack went past he had the presence of mind to push his head under that sand truck and oh it twisted it around popped like a watermelon being dropped on the ground oh my God guys very annoyed told the trustees to get that thing away out of sight was that nice thing called it I thought you Brave bastard you yeah you've got the guts to do that was it not quite a disturbing thing to witness no it was shocking because if you haven't seen it kind of thing up close and I happen to be looking um it was uh but that that's how I felt about it but I was saved In The End by a con man and people say a lot of bad things about economy they do yes they do and they uh you can't be trusted uh they are rottenness and they will cheat you just because they're the Scorpion that's in their nature uh but sometimes they're just what you need and this rather smooth um Bostonian American um who spoke Thai and really knew his way around and I you know I thought the somewhere in this huge prison there'd be an enclave of rich and corrupt foreigners with loads of money and there'd be luxuries it wasn't there was nobody of any importance in there you know a couple of big sacrifices had been made but um a couple of very rich policemen who were in the hospital in intensive care but other than that it was it was just um the people who reached the absolute bottom Drifters in Asia who did run after run and then got sacrificed to the machine they'd get about four jobs a big Syndicate there operating careers had run four times bang they'd shot them to the police they'd be gone oh God they will turn told the same story and it was Joe it was this guest house it was such and such identical and um and and at this point had you been sentenced to death had you received oh no no no I I was trying to avoid that yeah once I came to my senses because the the Boston con had so many wonderful schemes medical thing to get me bail and know some way of a escape with a go to court I get snatched from there I had villains come over and and scope out the court too because there was a way I thought of getting out of there from the lift that took you up to the the building uh snatched from the middle as you go down changed into a different set of clothes but they all got scared thing about um some of our most loved uh and fearless villains they're pretty good in the local manner but you throw them into a place like that where people carry machine guns and shoot at will just for the hell of it not so confident they like the upper edge of being snakes um so I couldn't convince anybody to really help and it was just as well um and two and a half years passed there in this prison it's a long time it was I sort of perked up a little bit pulled myself together started exercising um got a couple of ATM cards over hadn't my favorite god um he was in charge of the the building bought myself a room renovated um so you had you bought a room within the prison that was just for you rented that's rented right you know and is that an official thing that you're allowed to do right there are places in the world where it's official right but you had an influx of money that you could pay for special treats you could survive there on um less than 500 pounds a month and be king oh wow was this the 70s or the 80s now by the way we're into um 90 495 19 the 495 because what's reported about you is that during the 80s you were a multi-millionaire um is that accurate um now what do we call a multi-millionaires a young halfway with a million and a quarter on a glass coffee table and looks around the living room and thinks I've got to get a sofa one of these days um oh goes to the car auctions in the morning buys a big yank tank with a 427 Chevy engine in it um drives it around makes his own car parking spaces you know we're smashing the front in backing the other one pushing the other cars out of the way um oh stoned off my head most of the time uh if I wasn't stunned enough I'd take a few mandracks just to colludes icing on the cake um so I didn't take care of the money and the money didn't take care of me so I guess I'm like the reason I the reason I asked was because it must have been quite a stark change going from a very rich existence to basically somewhere where you basically couldn't pay for anything initially and it was a very poor existence but I guess from what you're saying there it's not like you felt like you were Rich at the time um I've made that contrast a few times when I had my first big arrest I couldn't as I was in a cold near lightless cell of blue stone and horse hair mattress about two inches thick and wrecking a piss I would think back to the night before when I had my important to tell in huge bed and Irish linen sheets and swimming pool out there and um and we had to kind of shake off the contrast but that rubber banding must must have been hard to take because it's you're going from basically the aspiration of almost everyone where you're talking about just buying cars outright and having a swimming pool to a piss stinking bed you know it must be it was you know it's odd thing about it was providing I could see a way out a work a way out I didn't so much mind oh okay um I really trained myself to expect my whatever world I built up and and this happened several times I've done it five times had a new identity New Life new surroundings even new people and dang they're gone and every time it got worse um and there was even Thailand was desperately important because even though it was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it um you know I was somebody that nobody minded killing um so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah there's nothing like the prospect of being executed by a machine gun which is the way they did it God is that what it would have been wow yeah you know oh they'd have three guards all with a bit of string on the trigger and they'd all pull it once so that none of them could be condemned in the Buddhist sense of sin oh they don't even actually right I see it caused the bullet that finished you off oh I see so you're in the Thai prison you've been sentenced to uh rather unpleasant death penalty um how did you start coming up with this famous plan for escaping um desperation it was the last plan that looked like it was going to work um there were probably about 20 plans considered um everything from being the prison held I've since found out it holds 22 000 people oh my God in 10 sub prisons uh there's a women's section there's a young offenders there's a special reminder a drug unit all of that um just a wild place it has everything it even had a prisoner-run shop where you could extract you could borrow money against your account and cash anyway um one of the plans involved being welded into a VW Combi van in the prisons Auto Workshop which would be picked up early Monday morning and I'd be driven out and that another one was um there were several courtroom ones and you couldn't just pay your way out no no it's just you could pay to have a mobile phone which in those days was a rare thing but they were around um you could pay for a bottle of clong uh whiskey you could pay I'm sure you could pay to get a a girl in your room if you could work out what a room was that a whole section full of ladyboys there and got a building full of them they used to open it up on Saturdays so um you could pay for anything but not to leave they couldn't cover that and they couldn't trust each other you would need 25 30 different guards paid off and and the gods of visitors I mean too many guides no that wouldn't work and they looked at it as a kind of betrayal only if I saw two escapes attempts there one group of uh straight kids and a Singaporean got out of their cell incredibly turned themselves into the sleeping God when they'd all lied to each other about what they didn't have you know the ropes and ways out because they're it was so outraged that they'd spoiled the guys jobs they beat them to death slowly tortured them over three months to death having put them in little code lockers the soy they call them drag them out in elephant chains every day and batter them senseless uh internal bleeding usually did it um look I've got a bowl of rice and a painting to poo in that was it um even the water was it was just too horrible so if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off even my Swedish friends Sten the Viking he backed out at the last minute I couldn't get people to go with me all the other plants had fallen to bits because they depended on other people I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars and I needed equipment for that and here's a really important point I guess as bad as this world is you've got to try to find good people if you ask somebody if you asked your friend yeah and and you're finished you'll manage to get a phone call and say friend it's been here um I need you to get um I don't know four hacksaw blades and cut them into the dowel rods of a of a poster and then paint it all up and send it in a huge package with this that cable ties gaffer tape but disguise all that how many people are going to do it turn around wouldn't believe it Ben called me what his neck yeah he's screwed but anyway he wouldn't believe but he wants me to do this that now people don't do it but Michael on the other hand our business partner wouldn't even let me explain he hadn't heard from me in 18 months he said David don't explain I'm sure we could get cut off tell me the important part now where do I have to be and what do I have to bring no that's a friend um and so I've always tried to do the same for the others that I've known like that um but um I did get the equipment together that I needed and everything um about escapes from a big prison is not like your hope it's going to be you know I turned it out walked around the streets and it had streets inside it um and timed it with my trusty Casio and it was so I knew roughly how long it would take to get me but the night's a different world I'm a prisoner I'm only used to noise during the day even the fan chopping around in the Cell at night it's so quiet everything I did squeaked and rattled and twisted I came across a panel that had to be a nail had to come out and that and they'll protest it and scream their wrench out of the way it took um uh seven or eight worlds uh sorry seven or eight walls to cross over I say worlds because they really were every building was a different thing and I got lost and I went past the terminal AIDS Ward that building hundreds of guys all die and I could smell it before I got there because this necrotic Rotting Flesh and I couldn't resist looking in I'm carrying this huge long ladder made out of bamboo poles and fake picture frames gaffer taped along the center [Music] um and I looked up and I saw all these little faces in the Moonlight wrapped in so much pain and despair they didn't have the energy to cry out to the guards if they'd been in any other prisoners they would have the trustees there were absolute scum of the earth had whistled little uniforms sell the drugs one day and the rest of the guys for it the next all of that um and it was only by um well I only got to the outer wall by Dawn and if somebody had been with me I wouldn't have made it either you wouldn't have no imagine I've taken all night to get there and at each point where this something was unexpected I've had to dream up something and I get a little basic toolkit and I sometimes I'd have to sacrifice part of my ladder to make a hook to pull down barbed wire and the technique for using the thing was awkward you had to prop it walk up drop down the other side so you're twisting over the walls like that manual is entirely barbed wire so I had to go underneath it covered in mud the the last one was really too high and there was a Mars bar Creek the the moat that ran around I did you know if I was with somebody else we'd be arguing wouldn't we oh Spa Creek oh it was full of turds bombing around it was caught out of the sewer yeah you did ask um illustrative okay we're just gonna take a quick break from the show to talk about a sponsor of this episode better help better help is an online Counseling Service which connects people to therapists and counselors I'm joined by one of our producers bryony is counseling something you've had experience with do you know what it's interesting because when I was growing up the same kind of challenges in life would happen but people wouldn't necessarily go to therapy or talk about therapy and I feel like since uh maybe my late teens early 20s people are starting to go to therapy and talking about it and I have definitely used it in my life and it's been massively beneficial same and do you because I think one of the things that people often mistake they think it's just for big things yeah but what's the other experience of that thing I think life always throws you know small challenges and large challenges and sometimes the big things need talking about but actually you know starting a new school or starting a new job can rile up that same level of anxiety and it's just really helpful to be able to talk to someone about it who is completely impartial not involved in your life and just kind of a safe space I guess to just say whatever you want to say you completely agree as the world's largest therapy service better help as much 3 million people with professionally licensed and vetted therapists available 100 online plus it's affordable just fill out a brief questionnaire to match with a therapist if things aren't clicking you can easily switch to a new therapist anytime it couldn't be simpler no waiting rooms no traffic no endless searching for the right therapist learn more and save 10 of your first month at betterhelp.com minutes with that's betterhelp help help.com minutes with um now there was one way of oh Beyond marsburg create this a foot and a half of land before this huge huge wall you've got to get a ladder that's too heavy to carry too imbalanced to do anything with but you've got a bit of rope how do you get it to the other side of Mars bar which has all got tangled barb wire in that so it'll catch get it in place and up against the wall when you've got no ground to to walk on now there is a way and uh I guess people have to listen to me describe it either to you or in my book okay fine but too long to tell here sure but um I could see the glow of dawn as I got to the top which had electricity running through it too just to make it the top of the wall dead yeah yeah wow but um my friend who um was in there a bit of a technician is to belong to the anarchist Society in in Britain how would you belong to a society that has rules when you anyway putting that aside he did tell me that it would only be 240 volts but to be careful um and just managed to get over that and because the original plan was to um oh there was an outer moat beyond that of 20 meters I had my clothes ready to go into a plastic bag swim the moat but just as well I didn't um because all it turned out all the guards houses were over the other side of that moat this would not be a place to go but I cleaned myself up threw some clothes on and I one of the jobs that I didn't do but I was supposed to be doing was working in the Umbrella Factory so I paid a local boy to do it um I've got a pop-up umbrella from there I thought you know you really get a perspective about I want to just simple discrimination but being an outsider a foreigner the way sometimes people feel picked upon you know we were called the white trash and we were in in Chains and everything so I knew I had to cover my face in the popular did it and I managed to get to a place where a passport was hidden and to the airport and still had a working ATM card to get me out of the country into Singapore so did you end up with the umbrella did you walk out the front gate yeah I did I had some long trousers on now in their prisoners are not allowed to wear them so I had some khaki pants I thought they might as I walked around the the narrow path to the front gate it's still mote but a little Bridge I thought another figure it's a guard arriving late and sneaking in and I did I felt like Ripley an alien uh looking at thinking lucky lucky this is where it all ends doesn't it and I'm thinking that every moment and looking up and there was just enough light rain to justify the umbrella yeah I would learn later that was actually the not a rain from the gods but the spittle of their laughter because they had worse things in mind for me later on I mean it's so it's you know how many people are you aware how many people had escaped from that prison up to that point was it some every year or was it very infrequent none um the ties sometimes ran away when they were doing the gardens in Chains outside but Escape From Within um I'd known of in 20 years people could recall two attempts no foreigners um and they didn't trust the foreigners that's why they put you on the third floor right quite rightly yes and and how long had it taken you from like the beginning of the uh I started cutting at um 11 45 I paid a lot to get a light switch in there normally the lights are on all the time um okay and I said to my favorite guard oh yeah Ponting or whatever his name was I can't sleep with that thing I'll put a light switch in um um now they didn't say it as corruption or bribe taking they thought I'm doing this nice guy a favor and I'll be lucky because of it that's a very big thing over there you know if I get caught I'm unlucky then so they can batter me to death I mean sure it's kind of self-justifies any action that a human being might take so he started cutting around eight for 11 45 11 45 okay it's quite close through one bar by two in the morning oh God stencia listen we'll go on the next note I looked around and Kevin the American from Hawaii I didn't even know this was happening uh Mirage the Indian I know he's going to talk the next morning he was kakaria LA pantaloni right in the cell never mind holding out and not saying anything he would have it would have been finished I never would have made it and I guess I could have seen the missing bars potentially but I learned later on I actually caught up with somebody who was in there Scottish guy um he was there for selling ecstasy to the Two well-off Sons and Daughters of wealthy policemen anyway um he remembers they the guards couldn't figure that I'd left oh um he said David they ran around the the prison calling out your name it was Daniel Westlake while I was there Daniel Daniel they okay that somebody drew their attention to the cut bar in there yeah my Scottish friend said they the gods wanted they thought that okay he's got out he's angry about something uh Daniel but he's not actually he'll never get out he couldn't get it they never found the the ladder down the front wall until much much later so for um uh uh only one of them said oh we better check the airport they sent a couple of guys down there um just a little bit late and you were gone by then only just and remember man you've got a passport from a Chinese connection that you barely know but kind of like the cut of his jib but are you gonna put your life on the line on that and at every moment you're handing it over you know like the look of it yeah they don't like the look of it they're typing it up and you're thinking they got onto the computer have they done that bit uh have they entered my arrival was this I knew it was freshly stolen or sold off was only a few weeks old uh I mean not new was had only gone missing a few weeks earlier so it was still good but very nerve-wracking and I didn't have a photo I had to use my old um uh radio operators license that had a photograph in it to get reproduced into this thing so it was a bit grainy um and even on the plane it was delay and takeoff oh God and a mumbling Captain oh sorry um we we have a thing with one passenger I just asked what thing exactly soon enough thwomp doors to manual oh but I've got an hour you know looking at this passport I don't like it get to Singapore but I make it through so you got to Singapore yeah but you did end up going back to prison not a Thai prison but a different prison he's suggesting uh I did something wrong well I'm hoping you're going to tell me um no well okay uh I didn't stay in Singapore long because um I sat there in the hotel room unable to digest food not prepared by my own cook sure I in the hotel room in Singapore I realized you could work out who had left that day if they'd flown my air by simply going to the airport and children you work it out yourselves at home you check everybody who's left separate the foreigners hmm go a step further let's keep the Canadian and American the British the Australian New Zealand all the English-speaking passport Society um just to you know reduce the numbers take those names check with the embassies any of these names belong to lost or stolen passports that have been reported yeah five of them because that's Bangkok you know not the only Mischief maker there but nonetheless um they probably knew I could be who was I Charles McClintock hmm sorry Charles I had to borrow your passport but it was an essential cause but you're not wanted anymore of course are you no but I did get an unwelcome knock at the door some years ago uh by the police who um would it be to go excuse me Westminster Court known for the terrorist cases extradition or parking fights wow I'd lift the car anywhere lately so it was going to be one of the other two and it was extradition to Thailand I fought that case for two years and um it was difficult um but managed to effectively win in the end so the ties have dropped that one and I can't be taken back there I'm not wanted anywhere um I can nobody can do what they want but um I I'm not I haven't got anything pending I'm not in business I'm a bit cautious I even got sent something in the the mail a few years ago and I thought it was some gift from some halfway ambitious wombat in in Pakistan sending me a bit of dope thinking oh yeah there's a gift you might like that connection made no I mean people had my address all around the world ever since Danny Dyer um it turned out to be more complicated than that but um very dangerous for me to walk into a courtroom so I don't even imagine you're me and knock at the door oh here's something for you Ben you don't like the look of it you refuse it you're in court no matter why did you refuse that was it your name no you was up The Jig was up proof ladies and gentlemen oh you accept it ah you accepted it proof ladies and gentlemen wife saying to me Jeanette and whom I met in Pakistan years ago and she was there to fish out her husband on a two-ton hash deal he didn't make it anyway um she said throw the thing away I'm thinking in court again ladies and gentlemen he threw the stuff away I can't win so very cautious about all that kind of stuff um fair enough but I take it you won't be going for a holiday to Thailand anytime soon I didn't think so okay so how many do you know off the top of your head of your life how many years of your life have you spent in prison ultimately I did add it up once I'm 66 now and I suppose I've spent um but 22 years the thing that occurs to me and I met you before and I thought the same thing is like you obviously extremely intelligent extremely resourceful it can't be well but well anyway but do you regret the choices you made in terms of do you see those 22 years in prison as something you had no control over it's just the way the dice rolled or do you see them as a mistake on your part um worse than a mistake mistake suggest you didn't know uh where you were going wrong I was taking those steps into uh of a precipice that I'd defied there is no gravity I said I said I will work out something before I hit the ground um when I was It was kind of in stages when I was young it was just arrogance and and showing off and later on when everything was destroyed it was kind of I'd scraped away all of my life and would just go on um then in the third stage it was escaping away from places rebuilding up and being weakened every time it was taken away again um and do I regret it yeah I'm sure I um no you know some people say oh yeah but David just smuggled everything on Earth you scumbag you you know um think of the lives you've destroyed and the people you've heard ah and I go to start to explain that it's not quite black and white uh I mean I've had drug habits myself that I've carelessly allowed um but I thought what's the point anything I say we just sound like self-justification so well don't listen to me then you know but things that have happened that have taught me a lot it's interesting you say that because one of a lot of the comments on our well on the first video we did a lot of the comments where people saying someone needs to make a movie about this guy but a lot of the other comments were people saying he's so charismatic and likable but he must be a really dangerous person to have been involved with all these worlds for so long and um we've interviewed a couple of drug smugglers and I would say they're the ones that I've met have been the ones that probably are more someone you'd see is traditionally quite an obviously dangerous person you come across as very Charming charismatic roguish where do you see yourself on that scale do you see yourself as someone who was dangerous or do you see yourself as someone who's just moved from area to area as it occurred um kind of like this a dangerous I suppose what most people see that and you know if somebody was a problem for me would I find the best option to have them killed or not but really there always was a kind of Vestige of that's a failure if you can't think of anything better than to have them killed then then then what are you doing there's a million clever ways of solving your problems and that besides which there's always going to be people you can't kill everybody um not only that who killed the killers that you've got to do the killing you know you know they always say that about the quiet ones and all of that but it was the people who bothered to put up a smoke screen um they're establishing a um later Alibi a courtroom personality but I met him he didn't seem bothered by all of that why would he have him killed and those are the ones that um seem to be more dangerous and if I was such a dangerous person like that I certainly been absolute fool to break from that mold and say otherwise wouldn't it very true David it's great to see you again thank you so much for coming in always a pleasure yeah and I've Got a Feeling we'll be seeing you again at some point as well it's possible it does may cross thank you I'll be like oh my God they're in my head they they know they know that was a song and so they put that song on the radio and it's all everything revolves around me or you know and this happened well sometimes happens today you know I'm I'm thinking of someone in my head someone under there like on the street	as the world's largest therapy service better help as much 3 million people with professionally licensed and vetted therapists available 100 online plus it's affordable just fill out a brief questionnaire to match with a therapist if things aren't clicking you can easily switch to a new therapist anytime it couldn't be simpler no waiting rooms no traffic no endless searching for the right therapist learn more and save 10 of your first month at betterhelp.com minutes with that's betterhelp help help.com minutes with um now there was one way of oh Beyond marsburg create this a foot and a half of land before this huge huge wall you've got to get a ladder that's too heavy to carry too imbalanced to do anything with but you've got a bit of rope how do you get it to the other side of Mars bar which has all got tangled barb wire in that so it'll catch get it in place and up against the wall when you've got no ground to to walk on now there is a way and uh I guess people have to listen to me describe it either to you or in my book okay fine but too long to tell here sure but um I could see the glow of dawn as I got to the top which had electricity running through it too just to make it the top of the wall dead yeah yeah wow but um my friend who um was in	2	6	4	as the world's largest therapy service better help as much 3 million people with professionally licensed and vetted therapists available 100 online plus it's affordable just fill out a brief questionnaire to match with a therapist if things aren't clicking you can easily switch to a new therapist anytime it couldn't be simpler no waiting rooms no traffic no endless searching for the right therapist learn more and save 10 of your first month at betterhelp.com	now there was one way of oh Beyond marsburg create this a foot and a half of land before this huge huge wall you've got to get a ladder that's too heavy to carry too imbalanced to do anything with but you've got a bit of rope how do you get it to the other side of Mars bar which has all got tangled barb wire in that so it'll catch get it in place and up against the wall when you've got no ground to to walk on now there is a way and uh I guess people have to listen to me describe it either to you or in my book okay fine but too long to tell here	8,6,9	3,-5,6	8	6	9	3	-5	6
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyZyHHexx7s	4,101	oyZyHHexx7s	2022-12-07 00:00:00	even though I was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off I couldn't get people to go with me I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars [Music] it's great to have you back David obviously we've met before but for anyone who doesn't know who you are for new listeners or new viewers could you give us a brief introduction to what you are famous for well I suppose uh most well known for uh having escaped to prison in Thailand in Bangkok uh the biggest one they have there clong Prim it uh wasn't something I did frivolously I was going to be executed within a couple of weeks so it seemed like a good time to leave okay now um we're going to get into that in a bit more detail but one thing that I remember about you from last time is you're the most incredible talker and we took away the inter the initial interview we've done with you and ended up having to make it into two long episodes because you have a lot of different very colorful uh experiences so do forgive me if I Jimmy us through oh no I can understand that I mean the only place I never talk is in the police station I always like some of my uh work colleagues took um what was it one slap to get them talking but five to shut them up oh okay so let's go right back to the beginning um you were born in the UK and then I believe you emigrated to Australia well um it was all a family thing yes I was born in basewater in London I spent the first few years of my life then uh there but my parents broke up divorced and I went with my mother to Australia with my older sister so I don't have any really very early memories of London apart from some old eight millimeter movie footage of me learning to walk in Hyde Park my dad was waving a five pound note in front of my face and I was making every effort to grab it I continued that behavior for many many years afterwards returned to Australia um finished some schooling um got really contrasting jobs I worked in an adult Agency for a while um but also before that I was got a job in a cinema now it was the and under literally an underground place but it was there that I got introduced to a bunch of crooks um some of the girls there had boyfriends that I used to run down with um strange boxes or bits of money or fur coats and then wink at me bolt out the back door pursued by often policemen undercover ones of course whom we'd misdirect somewhere but that Circle they were um safe crackers and they really didn't trust Outsiders and didn't much like the sound of me but because of I demonstrated a couple of things by being look everybody was really very anti-authority then I I don't mean hostile but for people now they they wouldn't have experienced that in the uh late 60s 70s we were so snotty and arrogant we really thought we were going to change the world and that um the laws were all nothing and the way to change them was to break them well that was the kind of vanity we had so um when I got to know the safe crackers uh better there was something really interesting I mean I didn't like the idea you know stealing things seemed a bit tacky but on the other hand they kind of all needed the money from the from their backgrounds and everything but that wasn't so much the the interest it was the technicalities of getting into these things okay um they used to drill through the top um having anchored it with the drill with clamps and and put a kind of little lens inside a cystoscope used in medicine and watch the the wheels turning around this is the old kind of old-fashioned Hollywood style it was yeah and um behind the safe were three discs and you had to line them up and they'd once they got in they'd take the door with them so that the opposition the safe makers wouldn't know how they'd got in and it was a a constant battle between the manufacturers and them because they've come across new safes which had Special Metals in it that was mixed like a a crunchy nut bar very hard metals very soft ones so the drill bit would slip on them snap and you got a sense that this was almost like a game where um they would try something then try to beat them and they were very loyal to each other um they they never spoke out of school as it were um when I got involved with them I'd only have to if I had trouble I don't have to make one phone call and people would appear out of nowhere and I thought yeah this this is kind of better than the treacherous boys school that I I grew up in and how old were you at this point um 19 years old 19. so were you thinking you were making a conscious decision to move into illegal activities or at that point in time and at that point in the world did it feel like more of a kind of a bit of roguish fun would you say I was drawn to it anyway because it was interesting and um I didn't really have a lot of fear I think sometimes what we do or don't do is depending on how scary it seems yeah agreed um I was born with a low resting heart rate as they say you know if it's below 70 you're a risk taker I don't know why that is when the safe crackers retired they put some of their money into growing little crops of weed and so on but profit margin is is only through importing because like the price difference is cheap in the source countries expensive where it sells so because they couldn't do it they were almost throwing it down like a challenge like we don't know anybody who can do this and I thought well I traveled a lot um I didn't think it was going to be impossible um I thought the odds were in my phone and I looked it up I went to the library and sort of researched it a bit and where were you thinking which country Well they um they were very keen to get some um hashish from India or Nepal or somewhere okay I could see um it's bulky and there's packing problems so um they funded me and off I sailed now the operation my first operation was so deplorably bad I'm barely 20 years old I my cunning plan which involved a big piece of exported Machinery which had weights in it so the weights would come out the cash would go in it would weigh the same being returned and it was a piece of Television equipment or something that went South immediately when I didn't realize that I would have to pay a huge deposit in duty to even bring it in as a demo machine so forget that I ended up in short meeting a guy in a money exchange section of a bank I was there because I ran out and I had to send asking for more from the boys and I met him and he wasn't involved in any of this but he soon became that just he managed to get me six kilos of hash I took the 1952 ancient Grundig radio from his parents house the Shelf there guttered the thing like a fish wrapped it up and he had to get cling film in those days think of this before you travel arriving with a suitcase full of cling film doesn't look good I suppose but uh wedged it in there and then just flew back to Sydney now you can imagine what happened well just before we get on to what happened you know one thing that strikes me is what year was would this have been this was uh 77 77 so it's amazing think that back then if someone was going to India for the first time now they could go on Google Maps they could research it or they could find out who they could find phone numbers contacts they could be put in contact with people before they've even set off whereas you must have at that age at that time been going in slightly blind you know touching down in a foreign country that you didn't know well no contacts was that not quite daunting well what was more um troubling with um how everything would fail and then I'd have to um you know come up with another plan what context somebody I knew um um there were no bank robber who joined the hare krishnas and fled to India right and I had his name and and the ashram in Delhi where where he was was supposed to have been uh I didn't really catch up with him on that trip but okay sure so so then you get back to Australia with your radio that is now full to the brim with and I get stopped you you did get stopped okay I could stop because uh I'm I'm on a British passport um and it's the only trip I've ever done and I'm that age I'd stop me oh fatherly type was at the Customs desk now the the systems were different in those days um it was Sydney too which is very and certainly was very relaxed back then right he opened the suitcase uh there was nothing in there except a pair of socks there's a towel wrapping up this massive radio which he lifted up so it was buckled at the sides little red packets poking out oh it smelled like a hedgehog for a patchouliers okay not much of a disguise um he let me go he uh put it back looked around to make sure that none of his workmates were watching him being so soft um and then turned to me and said you're going back there you're going to do this again [Music] all right you can take your we'll call it a radio shall we get out of here what he thought I realized later was that he didn't want the whole grammar of the day arresting me filling out papers and it would have been a a long time plus I guess being a dad he thought if I he's obviously an idiot you're right if I send him into Gladiator Academy or it wasn't really like that in those days but certainly contact center um the prison what am I doing um well I guess uh he was hopeful you know I whilst out of there must have smuggling me but I experienced then what um I got years later which was kind of a real Downer after you know having got nowhere with The Hare krishnas and and cultivated the shoeshine boys and had my money stolen at Amex uh by some Scallywags in Delhi all sorts of Little Adventures over there in India and nonetheless made it it's kind of like that's all there is to it I I didn't really want to give it to anyone um sort of felt like you didn't have a big moment of no a bit of money that came earlier that's handy right uh I paid back what I owed and settled up for for the next thing so but once that was started when you sorry I interrupted you go oh I was just going to say it to finish it even though they'd funded me the guys were very surprised to see me back but at all at all oh you made it oh because some of them say oh you'll just run away with it uh even if that's what he's doing who knows what he's doing you know and then I could see sitting around you can imagine there's like a table full of well like three guys and then a kind of Darkness shrouded over that room I thought uh it's not valuable enough to kill me you know what what is this mood why did you bring that well that's what you've been talking about yeah you could have loaded that with cane or smack or something you guys we say nothing but terrible things about a class or heavy drugs that don't want to know about it right and I could read then that wait a minute there we're all might be guys together and having fun getting into the safe and whatnot but there was a kind of different it was something a very strong lesson I'd have to be thoughtful about that um there could be times where things didn't work out not necessarily that my safety was at risk I didn't see it that way but I knew that there were Ruthless People right okay yeah so you got an insight into a mindset that had been a bit below the surface it was there I just chose not to see it but um I then went on to you know refine everything and Vary everything and then did you after that first time did you were you still working sort of for them or did you immediately well when you wake up on your own when things um I picked up and there was enough money around out of uh out of strategy rather than just being a nice guy I gave my partners a kind of thank you bonus from the next thing that I did but I did that all myself right so it was almost like a yeah separation and I wanted to go back to the my hippie friends anyway they were a little less it wasn't that they were scary but but that didn't last because they were maybe friends might be all right but they will certainly careless and stupid but from from that point onwards after that initial Journey was that you then into the world of smuggling I thought this won't last forever you only need one setback and that changes it I probably made quite a lot of money and I could have got out but and I should have gotta you know I have couriers a leak from one of the the couriers brought the police to me and here was the problem with it it was at first I scattered now I was married to my first wife then clearly Italian girl her dad had restaurants I grabbed her I had a secret drawer with extra passports in it some money ended up four plane Journeys later in um off the Bahamas had the skipper of a day rent yacht and take me out to an island and nobody had ever been on before it was empty sat there on a towel I thought hmm the level of surveillance I had means it's quite a big operation they're funded and I checked with a lawyer before the bigger the money they spent the more determined they'll be stay away or go back I mean I don't know why would anybody do this uh well I wasn't broke um I didn't have to there was no pressure on me the more I went through the problems the more attractive the whole thing is uh she didn't like it much well again do you think because it was a puzzle to be solved because um arrogance really we've gone from basically someone who was kind of mildly interested in making a group of people meeting a group of um safe hackers to someone who pulled off their first thing and then we've jumped to someone who has people working for them and and now is no longer taking the risk themselves now the police are on to you and you're on this desert island well small island and you're thinking about going back into it was this like a turning point in your life in terms of going you know because the other option I suppose was to go straight but were you just more it was that just not an option for you I'd gone to my lawyer Ralph he said look this is what I picked up because I my travel agent had tipped me to a couple of detectives that come in he traveled again while I was in on the phone okay uh actually they're all innocent really yeah you know and and gave him a long list of names um they wanted travel details for and a telephone number which I traced uh to um a private office building which had been rented by state and federal police they were so distrusting of their own they didn't want to even run this thing from um regular police headquarters my lawyer said well what you sure it's you said Ralph look at the list of names there's 30 there I'm 26 of them passports are a lot easier to get back then than there now so you had 26 aliases that you were traveling on yeah right okay um and I described where they were he said David they are funded well they're not bear this in mind but although I what they won't get me with anything they're funded you think they're going to walk away after a year and say oh sorry boss you spend a million dollars and uh nothing doing they don't work like that but this is how stubborn I was I thought because he said the only thing you can do is disappear for at least a couple of years and then you can come back if that's what you want and of course I had justifications for it I thought okay I'll I'll build up a bit more money and then I'll disappear but um it was only after things went terribly badly that I realized I shouldn't play like this anymore what it was they um because the challenge just kept coming so now so did you go back to Australia I went back to Australia and and when I retired within three months right but they weren't waiting for you to arrest you or no no they wanted they wanted something solid okay [Music] um I won't go into the long machinations of it all but um somebody we knew uh was getting things from a Thai Courier and he got arrested he sold us out to the police so that that The Courier would now come to us and I always have some solid evidence right he would bring things but we got away with that because that was another challenge but the police got tired of all this arrested me no drugs of course so it was a difficult case the worst kind of case is that where there's no solid evidence and in a way it's better to go to court where you've got a Smoking Gun and a dead body on the ground because at least you know where you are but where there's nothing tangible and it's conspiracies and this was a huge trial six months long what is that 119 Witnesses 6 000 pages of uh telephone intercept massive thing won't made it worse too and I think this was um would change things for me um the pressure was put on for confessions but it'd be silly to confess and you can't confess on somebody else's behalf can you that's not nice um lots of the family were arrested even my mother was taken and it went oh wow just to put pressure on uh did she know what you did oh she had an idea right okay I mean I used to have bin liners full of money I'd leave behind the fridge yeah you don't get that in the cinema do you not done not a very good day you know uh because they arrested so many people now when they arrested our wives and my business partner Michael his wife just had a baby it was we had to do a deal here I didn't want to but I was going to say I said to Michael look I know you don't like it but we'll play to it get the girls out of trouble we'll Escape that's a good challenge that way [Music] um but unfortunately um the intelligence section put an arsonist Informer in with the girls to get some information her fire was lit uh burnt down the women's prison and my wife and my business partner's wife was were killed uh that's awful and so the Informer that they put in there yeah why did they pick an arsonist for Daniel writer name was I don't know why I remember that after 40 years God so that's quite a big that was oh and and just uh to make things worse the story put about town to scare the careers into talking because they wouldn't speak was that we'd we were killing off all the witnesses and starting with our own family where does that come from um we ended up in a super max prison nightmarish electronic zoo with two inch glass and electronic doors and insane inmates held 48 death rate 27 people a year died in that little supermax going to court in Chains with a SWAT team taking it it was so so much Michael fell to pieces he was just a wreck he didn't make it uh he survived the jail but died when he got out the only way I could survive all of that was to strip away everything I you know I found myself in the supermax concrete everything's concrete the bed everything there's no everything's still just with the tape player from my lure listening to the the tapes the bug tapes the microphones in my house I could play back my life for the last six months clearly you're moving from room to room taking telephone calls she was crying about something I didn't know what I never know and David that's gone immerse yourself in the worst that they have you will not survive this otherwise trial sort of went not so good acquitted of most things but convicted enough 10 years difficult imprisonment but I the only way I could deal with it was to say did I want revenge that was more my fault I brought this about I got her in there I mean a family of a very kind to me about it considering I wouldn't be but it doesn't matter in Chains and super Mech strip it all away it is nothing everyone is a potential enemy everything it just nothing mattered win the day win the night I mean this is a place we had to fill in a book to get some toilet paper the showers were in front of them in a glass box um if you went on a visit they'd zip you up and lock you in a suit so you had no pockets there was after that and her death I felt like there was nothing that could affect me you're wrong about these things you know we're human but I got out and they were there they even visited me to say we'll be on you when you get out the police yeah we enjoyed the old days didn't you yeah I said pretending you know and just to make the point that they were there when I got out um I I'd done a whole lot of Woodwork in the prison in the last place I was at carving intricate things making these really great trick Chinese boxes with beeswax they intercepted the van that was taking it from the prison back to my house and smashed it all to pieces I put it in a box just to say don't think that we will never be here we can do what we want so I decided to leave the country I was um how old am I by then let's work it out yeah uh I started all this Mischief when I was about 18 got arrested at 22. 23 uh um 16 years 17 years either under surveillance or in bad prisons got out and I'm under surveillance again um so how old so you're number 37 about 37. so that's already you know that's a big chunk of Life there but you've lost quite a lot of it to prison or surveillance well at no point now were you like okay and I wasn't a normal person uh really when I got out because of the experience of prison I'd already stripped most of Myself Away to deal with the death of the Superman yeah and and watching people be burnt to death in the place which was frequent somebody had contact glue pulled all over him and then satellite oh God Gods came in and the other one's standing there with a Tire swinging it around to make sure to let him burn let him burn Jesus Barry's name was testicles swollen like apples but black okay he died two hours later in hospital anyway um that was regular account to deal with that I'd already strip things away so when I got a little apartment when I got out and my mother had arranged things for me when they were there when they'd leave rude messages on my answer machine when they'd be behind me everywhere I thought all right I remember this David it never ends if you want to survive go back to the way you were you know in in the super max Anything Can Happen anytime but I didn't want to live like that um I got a fresh passport and most elaborate means um I could spend a week explaining how that came into existence but I went to Thailand to pick up some money I had three days there it was just before Christmas I left at that time on purpose so that they maybe I thought maybe it's their weak point that they want to have families in their life just at Christmas I've parked my mum's car and and left the keys somewhere for her nobody knew were you not meant to leave the country no no no licenses oh I see we're just going to take a minute here to talk about a sponsor of this show which is manscaped we were sent a package to try out by manscaped but Conor one of our producers is already a fan of the brand I believe yeah absolutely I've been using manscape for a little while now and Ben as you know it's that time of year people start asking you what you want for Christmas and I would say that a great gift for a man especially one that might have everything is the manscape performance package 4.0 so what's in that so you get the lawnmower 4.0 electric trimmer you get some anti-chafe boxer shorts which I can vouch for as well as a couple of other grooming products that smell great fantastic well it sounds like a five-star review from uconnor absolutely so Connor you were talking about the performance package there's loads of other great gift ideas such as the hygiene bundle all available at manscape.com com and all gifts that men will genuinely love to receive this Christmas if you are a listener of this podcast you get 20 off and free shipping all you have to do is go to manscape.com and use the code minutes that's manscape.com m-i-n-u-t-e-s minutes um so why are we doing that the risk is it worth it I didn't want to play anymore right I wanted to uh see if I could have a something resembling like a a real life just to find some corner of the world plan was to to return to London and oh so you were leaving forever I'm leaving forever okay I see nobody knew it um I had a couple of hundred thousand in Thailand I thought um which I returned to pick up um now I suppose people say this Crooks always say this most unusual circumstances led to my arrest well they were but then again they always are aren't they or you wouldn't be telling the story or you wouldn't have been arrested but um the USDA was involved lots of people lots of players uh no real drugs are found uh they did an airport sweep and listed me up for like an ounce of something and a false passport or two the money I had just disappeared into pockets but those when I arrived there I felt so free I knew this identity was good I just like floating on air really I slipped out of my protective mode you know that when we stick to the plan and all right you don't want to leave I should have even stayed there for six months just get some sensible view of the world but I I didn't uh and as I went to the airport I could see they were all around me and I melted back into the crowd and disappeared again I thought well that serves me right for changing that attitude I'd had from back in super max and I just glaze over concentrate on the details which I needed to do because when I went to make a phone call later at the travel agency uh waiting it was so depressing being thrown into the Thai prison and I had some idea what they'd be like um people I'd known had been arrested there I knew this much it never won a case you never get out well you get out and what were they arresting you for was it the the uh the passport um what did the the the money wasn't I mean what did they leave 4 000 or something like that right and there are airports we put um I saw the guy walking in with it in a plastic bag you know whatever people throw on the floor before they go through security there was a bit of hash this usual bits of weed but what they really wanted was um this 25 grams of heroin because that would finish me off a policeman um Australian one said was that yours yeah yeah sure it was he said I didn't think so what would you be carrying around that for I mean if it was 10 kilos I might understand but but that was enough the death penalty and was it yours no no no so where where would that come from if you do they do a sweep every afternoon at five o'clock they get tons of it right I get you know nervous passengers go up and then they change their minds and they throw it in the toilet too and were they just did do you think they believed it was yours or do you think they were just going this is we need to give him this bit no no I think they were using it hoping to that would be good to hold and maybe they could get something else find out what I was up to who I was seeing because I had met um somebody who's whose uncle was a big player right so there was there was I think they were optimistic there might be more Camp come out of it but but there wasn't but what difference did it make and I wasn't really worried about um those drugs or the death penalty I wanted to die anyway frankly my first escape plans from there had this I imagine getting out to find the Privacy to kill myself right I wanted to go to the dusa Tony Hotel I knew Which floor and where to get onto the roof I'd taken photographs from there many years before um they were you simply couldn't get a moment's piece dormitories with 150 guys in them screaming all night um we can't even take a crap in peace in the Thai prison We're Not Afraid though of what killing myself well no I mean I don't know being brutalized by the guards or the inmates so well I knew enough about Thailand to to know that it was a little more comic than than bad there were very bad things happen they used to um they've beaten people a couple of people get beaten to death every day there but it's a very big prison we have to get that in proportion I only wish they wouldn't use the food trolley to take the dead bodies out because um you know they don't clean them up um and could you speak the language or were you quite it was a quite different communication uh not really uh and the few languages that uh pitch up in my travels I always found that even if you know them it's better to pretend you don't okay um because they'll talk about you behind your back you know certainly didn't live it on there was I I just couldn't see any point I'd gone to such elaborate precautions on this trip um it just shouldn't have happened and I even got away from the airport and still it happened oh all that confidence that I'll figure a way out I didn't care anymore I just had enough um and I remember seeing an old guy there if you had to go to court they put change on you and um you'd line up on the ground now this old guy I was looking at him because I don't know why a big soundtrack went past he had the presence of mind to push his head under that sand truck and oh it twisted it around popped like a watermelon being dropped on the ground oh my God guys very annoyed told the trustees to get that thing away out of sight was that nice thing called it I thought you Brave bastard you yeah you've got the guts to do that was it not quite a disturbing thing to witness no it was shocking because if you haven't seen it kind of thing up close and I happen to be looking um it was uh but that that's how I felt about it but I was saved In The End by a con man and people say a lot of bad things about economy they do yes they do and they uh you can't be trusted uh they are rottenness and they will cheat you just because they're the Scorpion that's in their nature uh but sometimes they're just what you need and this rather smooth um Bostonian American um who spoke Thai and really knew his way around and I you know I thought the somewhere in this huge prison there'd be an enclave of rich and corrupt foreigners with loads of money and there'd be luxuries it wasn't there was nobody of any importance in there you know a couple of big sacrifices had been made but um a couple of very rich policemen who were in the hospital in intensive care but other than that it was it was just um the people who reached the absolute bottom Drifters in Asia who did run after run and then got sacrificed to the machine they'd get about four jobs a big Syndicate there operating careers had run four times bang they'd shot them to the police they'd be gone oh God they will turn told the same story and it was Joe it was this guest house it was such and such identical and um and and at this point had you been sentenced to death had you received oh no no no I I was trying to avoid that yeah once I came to my senses because the the Boston con had so many wonderful schemes medical thing to get me bail and know some way of a escape with a go to court I get snatched from there I had villains come over and and scope out the court too because there was a way I thought of getting out of there from the lift that took you up to the the building uh snatched from the middle as you go down changed into a different set of clothes but they all got scared thing about um some of our most loved uh and fearless villains they're pretty good in the local manner but you throw them into a place like that where people carry machine guns and shoot at will just for the hell of it not so confident they like the upper edge of being snakes um so I couldn't convince anybody to really help and it was just as well um and two and a half years passed there in this prison it's a long time it was I sort of perked up a little bit pulled myself together started exercising um got a couple of ATM cards over hadn't my favorite god um he was in charge of the the building bought myself a room renovated um so you had you bought a room within the prison that was just for you rented that's rented right you know and is that an official thing that you're allowed to do right there are places in the world where it's official right but you had an influx of money that you could pay for special treats you could survive there on um less than 500 pounds a month and be king oh wow was this the 70s or the 80s now by the way we're into um 90 495 19 the 495 because what's reported about you is that during the 80s you were a multi-millionaire um is that accurate um now what do we call a multi-millionaires a young halfway with a million and a quarter on a glass coffee table and looks around the living room and thinks I've got to get a sofa one of these days um oh goes to the car auctions in the morning buys a big yank tank with a 427 Chevy engine in it um drives it around makes his own car parking spaces you know we're smashing the front in backing the other one pushing the other cars out of the way um oh stoned off my head most of the time uh if I wasn't stunned enough I'd take a few mandracks just to colludes icing on the cake um so I didn't take care of the money and the money didn't take care of me so I guess I'm like the reason I the reason I asked was because it must have been quite a stark change going from a very rich existence to basically somewhere where you basically couldn't pay for anything initially and it was a very poor existence but I guess from what you're saying there it's not like you felt like you were Rich at the time um I've made that contrast a few times when I had my first big arrest I couldn't as I was in a cold near lightless cell of blue stone and horse hair mattress about two inches thick and wrecking a piss I would think back to the night before when I had my important to tell in huge bed and Irish linen sheets and swimming pool out there and um and we had to kind of shake off the contrast but that rubber banding must must have been hard to take because it's you're going from basically the aspiration of almost everyone where you're talking about just buying cars outright and having a swimming pool to a piss stinking bed you know it must be it was you know it's odd thing about it was providing I could see a way out a work a way out I didn't so much mind oh okay um I really trained myself to expect my whatever world I built up and and this happened several times I've done it five times had a new identity New Life new surroundings even new people and dang they're gone and every time it got worse um and there was even Thailand was desperately important because even though it was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it um you know I was somebody that nobody minded killing um so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah there's nothing like the prospect of being executed by a machine gun which is the way they did it God is that what it would have been wow yeah you know oh they'd have three guards all with a bit of string on the trigger and they'd all pull it once so that none of them could be condemned in the Buddhist sense of sin oh they don't even actually right I see it caused the bullet that finished you off oh I see so you're in the Thai prison you've been sentenced to uh rather unpleasant death penalty um how did you start coming up with this famous plan for escaping um desperation it was the last plan that looked like it was going to work um there were probably about 20 plans considered um everything from being the prison held I've since found out it holds 22 000 people oh my God in 10 sub prisons uh there's a women's section there's a young offenders there's a special reminder a drug unit all of that um just a wild place it has everything it even had a prisoner-run shop where you could extract you could borrow money against your account and cash anyway um one of the plans involved being welded into a VW Combi van in the prisons Auto Workshop which would be picked up early Monday morning and I'd be driven out and that another one was um there were several courtroom ones and you couldn't just pay your way out no no it's just you could pay to have a mobile phone which in those days was a rare thing but they were around um you could pay for a bottle of clong uh whiskey you could pay I'm sure you could pay to get a a girl in your room if you could work out what a room was that a whole section full of ladyboys there and got a building full of them they used to open it up on Saturdays so um you could pay for anything but not to leave they couldn't cover that and they couldn't trust each other you would need 25 30 different guards paid off and and the gods of visitors I mean too many guides no that wouldn't work and they looked at it as a kind of betrayal only if I saw two escapes attempts there one group of uh straight kids and a Singaporean got out of their cell incredibly turned themselves into the sleeping God when they'd all lied to each other about what they didn't have you know the ropes and ways out because they're it was so outraged that they'd spoiled the guys jobs they beat them to death slowly tortured them over three months to death having put them in little code lockers the soy they call them drag them out in elephant chains every day and batter them senseless uh internal bleeding usually did it um look I've got a bowl of rice and a painting to poo in that was it um even the water was it was just too horrible so if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off even my Swedish friends Sten the Viking he backed out at the last minute I couldn't get people to go with me all the other plants had fallen to bits because they depended on other people I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars and I needed equipment for that and here's a really important point I guess as bad as this world is you've got to try to find good people if you ask somebody if you asked your friend yeah and and you're finished you'll manage to get a phone call and say friend it's been here um I need you to get um I don't know four hacksaw blades and cut them into the dowel rods of a of a poster and then paint it all up and send it in a huge package with this that cable ties gaffer tape but disguise all that how many people are going to do it turn around wouldn't believe it Ben called me what his neck yeah he's screwed but anyway he wouldn't believe but he wants me to do this that now people don't do it but Michael on the other hand our business partner wouldn't even let me explain he hadn't heard from me in 18 months he said David don't explain I'm sure we could get cut off tell me the important part now where do I have to be and what do I have to bring no that's a friend um and so I've always tried to do the same for the others that I've known like that um but um I did get the equipment together that I needed and everything um about escapes from a big prison is not like your hope it's going to be you know I turned it out walked around the streets and it had streets inside it um and timed it with my trusty Casio and it was so I knew roughly how long it would take to get me but the night's a different world I'm a prisoner I'm only used to noise during the day even the fan chopping around in the Cell at night it's so quiet everything I did squeaked and rattled and twisted I came across a panel that had to be a nail had to come out and that and they'll protest it and scream their wrench out of the way it took um uh seven or eight worlds uh sorry seven or eight walls to cross over I say worlds because they really were every building was a different thing and I got lost and I went past the terminal AIDS Ward that building hundreds of guys all die and I could smell it before I got there because this necrotic Rotting Flesh and I couldn't resist looking in I'm carrying this huge long ladder made out of bamboo poles and fake picture frames gaffer taped along the center [Music] um and I looked up and I saw all these little faces in the Moonlight wrapped in so much pain and despair they didn't have the energy to cry out to the guards if they'd been in any other prisoners they would have the trustees there were absolute scum of the earth had whistled little uniforms sell the drugs one day and the rest of the guys for it the next all of that um and it was only by um well I only got to the outer wall by Dawn and if somebody had been with me I wouldn't have made it either you wouldn't have no imagine I've taken all night to get there and at each point where this something was unexpected I've had to dream up something and I get a little basic toolkit and I sometimes I'd have to sacrifice part of my ladder to make a hook to pull down barbed wire and the technique for using the thing was awkward you had to prop it walk up drop down the other side so you're twisting over the walls like that manual is entirely barbed wire so I had to go underneath it covered in mud the the last one was really too high and there was a Mars bar Creek the the moat that ran around I did you know if I was with somebody else we'd be arguing wouldn't we oh Spa Creek oh it was full of turds bombing around it was caught out of the sewer yeah you did ask um illustrative okay we're just gonna take a quick break from the show to talk about a sponsor of this episode better help better help is an online Counseling Service which connects people to therapists and counselors I'm joined by one of our producers bryony is counseling something you've had experience with do you know what it's interesting because when I was growing up the same kind of challenges in life would happen but people wouldn't necessarily go to therapy or talk about therapy and I feel like since uh maybe my late teens early 20s people are starting to go to therapy and talking about it and I have definitely used it in my life and it's been massively beneficial same and do you because I think one of the things that people often mistake they think it's just for big things yeah but what's the other experience of that thing I think life always throws you know small challenges and large challenges and sometimes the big things need talking about but actually you know starting a new school or starting a new job can rile up that same level of anxiety and it's just really helpful to be able to talk to someone about it who is completely impartial not involved in your life and just kind of a safe space I guess to just say whatever you want to say you completely agree as the world's largest therapy service better help as much 3 million people with professionally licensed and vetted therapists available 100 online plus it's affordable just fill out a brief questionnaire to match with a therapist if things aren't clicking you can easily switch to a new therapist anytime it couldn't be simpler no waiting rooms no traffic no endless searching for the right therapist learn more and save 10 of your first month at betterhelp.com minutes with that's betterhelp help help.com minutes with um now there was one way of oh Beyond marsburg create this a foot and a half of land before this huge huge wall you've got to get a ladder that's too heavy to carry too imbalanced to do anything with but you've got a bit of rope how do you get it to the other side of Mars bar which has all got tangled barb wire in that so it'll catch get it in place and up against the wall when you've got no ground to to walk on now there is a way and uh I guess people have to listen to me describe it either to you or in my book okay fine but too long to tell here sure but um I could see the glow of dawn as I got to the top which had electricity running through it too just to make it the top of the wall dead yeah yeah wow but um my friend who um was in there a bit of a technician is to belong to the anarchist Society in in Britain how would you belong to a society that has rules when you anyway putting that aside he did tell me that it would only be 240 volts but to be careful um and just managed to get over that and because the original plan was to um oh there was an outer moat beyond that of 20 meters I had my clothes ready to go into a plastic bag swim the moat but just as well I didn't um because all it turned out all the guards houses were over the other side of that moat this would not be a place to go but I cleaned myself up threw some clothes on and I one of the jobs that I didn't do but I was supposed to be doing was working in the Umbrella Factory so I paid a local boy to do it um I've got a pop-up umbrella from there I thought you know you really get a perspective about I want to just simple discrimination but being an outsider a foreigner the way sometimes people feel picked upon you know we were called the white trash and we were in in Chains and everything so I knew I had to cover my face in the popular did it and I managed to get to a place where a passport was hidden and to the airport and still had a working ATM card to get me out of the country into Singapore so did you end up with the umbrella did you walk out the front gate yeah I did I had some long trousers on now in their prisoners are not allowed to wear them so I had some khaki pants I thought they might as I walked around the the narrow path to the front gate it's still mote but a little Bridge I thought another figure it's a guard arriving late and sneaking in and I did I felt like Ripley an alien uh looking at thinking lucky lucky this is where it all ends doesn't it and I'm thinking that every moment and looking up and there was just enough light rain to justify the umbrella yeah I would learn later that was actually the not a rain from the gods but the spittle of their laughter because they had worse things in mind for me later on I mean it's so it's you know how many people are you aware how many people had escaped from that prison up to that point was it some every year or was it very infrequent none um the ties sometimes ran away when they were doing the gardens in Chains outside but Escape From Within um I'd known of in 20 years people could recall two attempts no foreigners um and they didn't trust the foreigners that's why they put you on the third floor right quite rightly yes and and how long had it taken you from like the beginning of the uh I started cutting at um 11 45 I paid a lot to get a light switch in there normally the lights are on all the time um okay and I said to my favorite guard oh yeah Ponting or whatever his name was I can't sleep with that thing I'll put a light switch in um um now they didn't say it as corruption or bribe taking they thought I'm doing this nice guy a favor and I'll be lucky because of it that's a very big thing over there you know if I get caught I'm unlucky then so they can batter me to death I mean sure it's kind of self-justifies any action that a human being might take so he started cutting around eight for 11 45 11 45 okay it's quite close through one bar by two in the morning oh God stencia listen we'll go on the next note I looked around and Kevin the American from Hawaii I didn't even know this was happening uh Mirage the Indian I know he's going to talk the next morning he was kakaria LA pantaloni right in the cell never mind holding out and not saying anything he would have it would have been finished I never would have made it and I guess I could have seen the missing bars potentially but I learned later on I actually caught up with somebody who was in there Scottish guy um he was there for selling ecstasy to the Two well-off Sons and Daughters of wealthy policemen anyway um he remembers they the guards couldn't figure that I'd left oh um he said David they ran around the the prison calling out your name it was Daniel Westlake while I was there Daniel Daniel they okay that somebody drew their attention to the cut bar in there yeah my Scottish friend said they the gods wanted they thought that okay he's got out he's angry about something uh Daniel but he's not actually he'll never get out he couldn't get it they never found the the ladder down the front wall until much much later so for um uh uh only one of them said oh we better check the airport they sent a couple of guys down there um just a little bit late and you were gone by then only just and remember man you've got a passport from a Chinese connection that you barely know but kind of like the cut of his jib but are you gonna put your life on the line on that and at every moment you're handing it over you know like the look of it yeah they don't like the look of it they're typing it up and you're thinking they got onto the computer have they done that bit uh have they entered my arrival was this I knew it was freshly stolen or sold off was only a few weeks old uh I mean not new was had only gone missing a few weeks earlier so it was still good but very nerve-wracking and I didn't have a photo I had to use my old um uh radio operators license that had a photograph in it to get reproduced into this thing so it was a bit grainy um and even on the plane it was delay and takeoff oh God and a mumbling Captain oh sorry um we we have a thing with one passenger I just asked what thing exactly soon enough thwomp doors to manual oh but I've got an hour you know looking at this passport I don't like it get to Singapore but I make it through so you got to Singapore yeah but you did end up going back to prison not a Thai prison but a different prison he's suggesting uh I did something wrong well I'm hoping you're going to tell me um no well okay uh I didn't stay in Singapore long because um I sat there in the hotel room unable to digest food not prepared by my own cook sure I in the hotel room in Singapore I realized you could work out who had left that day if they'd flown my air by simply going to the airport and children you work it out yourselves at home you check everybody who's left separate the foreigners hmm go a step further let's keep the Canadian and American the British the Australian New Zealand all the English-speaking passport Society um just to you know reduce the numbers take those names check with the embassies any of these names belong to lost or stolen passports that have been reported yeah five of them because that's Bangkok you know not the only Mischief maker there but nonetheless um they probably knew I could be who was I Charles McClintock hmm sorry Charles I had to borrow your passport but it was an essential cause but you're not wanted anymore of course are you no but I did get an unwelcome knock at the door some years ago uh by the police who um would it be to go excuse me Westminster Court known for the terrorist cases extradition or parking fights wow I'd lift the car anywhere lately so it was going to be one of the other two and it was extradition to Thailand I fought that case for two years and um it was difficult um but managed to effectively win in the end so the ties have dropped that one and I can't be taken back there I'm not wanted anywhere um I can nobody can do what they want but um I I'm not I haven't got anything pending I'm not in business I'm a bit cautious I even got sent something in the the mail a few years ago and I thought it was some gift from some halfway ambitious wombat in in Pakistan sending me a bit of dope thinking oh yeah there's a gift you might like that connection made no I mean people had my address all around the world ever since Danny Dyer um it turned out to be more complicated than that but um very dangerous for me to walk into a courtroom so I don't even imagine you're me and knock at the door oh here's something for you Ben you don't like the look of it you refuse it you're in court no matter why did you refuse that was it your name no you was up The Jig was up proof ladies and gentlemen oh you accept it ah you accepted it proof ladies and gentlemen wife saying to me Jeanette and whom I met in Pakistan years ago and she was there to fish out her husband on a two-ton hash deal he didn't make it anyway um she said throw the thing away I'm thinking in court again ladies and gentlemen he threw the stuff away I can't win so very cautious about all that kind of stuff um fair enough but I take it you won't be going for a holiday to Thailand anytime soon I didn't think so okay so how many do you know off the top of your head of your life how many years of your life have you spent in prison ultimately I did add it up once I'm 66 now and I suppose I've spent um but 22 years the thing that occurs to me and I met you before and I thought the same thing is like you obviously extremely intelligent extremely resourceful it can't be well but well anyway but do you regret the choices you made in terms of do you see those 22 years in prison as something you had no control over it's just the way the dice rolled or do you see them as a mistake on your part um worse than a mistake mistake suggest you didn't know uh where you were going wrong I was taking those steps into uh of a precipice that I'd defied there is no gravity I said I said I will work out something before I hit the ground um when I was It was kind of in stages when I was young it was just arrogance and and showing off and later on when everything was destroyed it was kind of I'd scraped away all of my life and would just go on um then in the third stage it was escaping away from places rebuilding up and being weakened every time it was taken away again um and do I regret it yeah I'm sure I um no you know some people say oh yeah but David just smuggled everything on Earth you scumbag you you know um think of the lives you've destroyed and the people you've heard ah and I go to start to explain that it's not quite black and white uh I mean I've had drug habits myself that I've carelessly allowed um but I thought what's the point anything I say we just sound like self-justification so well don't listen to me then you know but things that have happened that have taught me a lot it's interesting you say that because one of a lot of the comments on our well on the first video we did a lot of the comments where people saying someone needs to make a movie about this guy but a lot of the other comments were people saying he's so charismatic and likable but he must be a really dangerous person to have been involved with all these worlds for so long and um we've interviewed a couple of drug smugglers and I would say they're the ones that I've met have been the ones that probably are more someone you'd see is traditionally quite an obviously dangerous person you come across as very Charming charismatic roguish where do you see yourself on that scale do you see yourself as someone who was dangerous or do you see yourself as someone who's just moved from area to area as it occurred um kind of like this a dangerous I suppose what most people see that and you know if somebody was a problem for me would I find the best option to have them killed or not but really there always was a kind of Vestige of that's a failure if you can't think of anything better than to have them killed then then then what are you doing there's a million clever ways of solving your problems and that besides which there's always going to be people you can't kill everybody um not only that who killed the killers that you've got to do the killing you know you know they always say that about the quiet ones and all of that but it was the people who bothered to put up a smoke screen um they're establishing a um later Alibi a courtroom personality but I met him he didn't seem bothered by all of that why would he have him killed and those are the ones that um seem to be more dangerous and if I was such a dangerous person like that I certainly been absolute fool to break from that mold and say otherwise wouldn't it very true David it's great to see you again thank you so much for coming in always a pleasure yeah and I've Got a Feeling we'll be seeing you again at some point as well it's possible it does may cross thank you I'll be like oh my God they're in my head they they know they know that was a song and so they put that song on the radio and it's all everything revolves around me or you know and this happened well sometimes happens today you know I'm I'm thinking of someone in my head someone under there like on the street	somebody who was in there Scottish guy um he was there for selling ecstasy to the Two well-off Sons and Daughters of wealthy policemen anyway um he remembers they the guards couldn't figure that I'd left oh um he said David they ran around the the prison calling out your name it was Daniel Westlake while I was there Daniel Daniel they okay that somebody drew their attention to the cut bar in there yeah my Scottish friend said they the gods wanted they thought that okay he's got out he's angry about something uh Daniel but he's not actually he'll never get out he couldn't get it they never found the the ladder down the front wall until much much later so for um uh uh only one of them said oh we better check the airport they sent a couple of guys down there um just a little bit late and you were gone by then only just and remember man you've got a passport from a Chinese connection that you barely know but kind of like the cut of his jib but are you gonna put your life on the line on that and at every moment you're handing it over you know like the look of it yeah they don't like the look of it they're typing it up and you're thinking they got onto the computer have they done that bit uh have they entered my arrival was this I knew it was freshly stolen	-2	8	-5	somebody who was in there Scottish guy um he was there for selling ecstasy to the Two well-off Sons and Daughters of wealthy policemen anyway um he remembers they the guards couldn't figure that I'd left oh um he said David they ran around the the prison calling out your name it was Daniel Westlake while I was there Daniel Daniel they okay that somebody drew their attention to the cut bar in there yeah my Scottish friend said they the gods wanted they thought that okay he's got out he's angry about something uh Daniel but he's not actually he'll never get out he couldn't get it they never found the the ladder down the front wall until much much later so for um uh uh only one of them said oh we better check the airport they sent a couple of guys down there um just a little bit late and you were gone by then only just and remember man you've got a passport from a Chinese connection that you barely know but kind of like the cut of his jib but are you gonna put your life on the line on that and at every moment you're handing it over you know like the look of it yeah they don't like the look of it they're typing it up and you're thinking they got onto the computer have they done that bit uh have they entered my arrival was this I knew it was freshly stolen	David they ran around the the prison calling out your name it was Daniel Westlake while I was there Daniel Daniel	3,2,6	0,1,5	3	2	6	0	1	5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyZyHHexx7s	4,101	oyZyHHexx7s	2022-12-07 00:00:00	even though I was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off I couldn't get people to go with me I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars [Music] it's great to have you back David obviously we've met before but for anyone who doesn't know who you are for new listeners or new viewers could you give us a brief introduction to what you are famous for well I suppose uh most well known for uh having escaped to prison in Thailand in Bangkok uh the biggest one they have there clong Prim it uh wasn't something I did frivolously I was going to be executed within a couple of weeks so it seemed like a good time to leave okay now um we're going to get into that in a bit more detail but one thing that I remember about you from last time is you're the most incredible talker and we took away the inter the initial interview we've done with you and ended up having to make it into two long episodes because you have a lot of different very colorful uh experiences so do forgive me if I Jimmy us through oh no I can understand that I mean the only place I never talk is in the police station I always like some of my uh work colleagues took um what was it one slap to get them talking but five to shut them up oh okay so let's go right back to the beginning um you were born in the UK and then I believe you emigrated to Australia well um it was all a family thing yes I was born in basewater in London I spent the first few years of my life then uh there but my parents broke up divorced and I went with my mother to Australia with my older sister so I don't have any really very early memories of London apart from some old eight millimeter movie footage of me learning to walk in Hyde Park my dad was waving a five pound note in front of my face and I was making every effort to grab it I continued that behavior for many many years afterwards returned to Australia um finished some schooling um got really contrasting jobs I worked in an adult Agency for a while um but also before that I was got a job in a cinema now it was the and under literally an underground place but it was there that I got introduced to a bunch of crooks um some of the girls there had boyfriends that I used to run down with um strange boxes or bits of money or fur coats and then wink at me bolt out the back door pursued by often policemen undercover ones of course whom we'd misdirect somewhere but that Circle they were um safe crackers and they really didn't trust Outsiders and didn't much like the sound of me but because of I demonstrated a couple of things by being look everybody was really very anti-authority then I I don't mean hostile but for people now they they wouldn't have experienced that in the uh late 60s 70s we were so snotty and arrogant we really thought we were going to change the world and that um the laws were all nothing and the way to change them was to break them well that was the kind of vanity we had so um when I got to know the safe crackers uh better there was something really interesting I mean I didn't like the idea you know stealing things seemed a bit tacky but on the other hand they kind of all needed the money from the from their backgrounds and everything but that wasn't so much the the interest it was the technicalities of getting into these things okay um they used to drill through the top um having anchored it with the drill with clamps and and put a kind of little lens inside a cystoscope used in medicine and watch the the wheels turning around this is the old kind of old-fashioned Hollywood style it was yeah and um behind the safe were three discs and you had to line them up and they'd once they got in they'd take the door with them so that the opposition the safe makers wouldn't know how they'd got in and it was a a constant battle between the manufacturers and them because they've come across new safes which had Special Metals in it that was mixed like a a crunchy nut bar very hard metals very soft ones so the drill bit would slip on them snap and you got a sense that this was almost like a game where um they would try something then try to beat them and they were very loyal to each other um they they never spoke out of school as it were um when I got involved with them I'd only have to if I had trouble I don't have to make one phone call and people would appear out of nowhere and I thought yeah this this is kind of better than the treacherous boys school that I I grew up in and how old were you at this point um 19 years old 19. so were you thinking you were making a conscious decision to move into illegal activities or at that point in time and at that point in the world did it feel like more of a kind of a bit of roguish fun would you say I was drawn to it anyway because it was interesting and um I didn't really have a lot of fear I think sometimes what we do or don't do is depending on how scary it seems yeah agreed um I was born with a low resting heart rate as they say you know if it's below 70 you're a risk taker I don't know why that is when the safe crackers retired they put some of their money into growing little crops of weed and so on but profit margin is is only through importing because like the price difference is cheap in the source countries expensive where it sells so because they couldn't do it they were almost throwing it down like a challenge like we don't know anybody who can do this and I thought well I traveled a lot um I didn't think it was going to be impossible um I thought the odds were in my phone and I looked it up I went to the library and sort of researched it a bit and where were you thinking which country Well they um they were very keen to get some um hashish from India or Nepal or somewhere okay I could see um it's bulky and there's packing problems so um they funded me and off I sailed now the operation my first operation was so deplorably bad I'm barely 20 years old I my cunning plan which involved a big piece of exported Machinery which had weights in it so the weights would come out the cash would go in it would weigh the same being returned and it was a piece of Television equipment or something that went South immediately when I didn't realize that I would have to pay a huge deposit in duty to even bring it in as a demo machine so forget that I ended up in short meeting a guy in a money exchange section of a bank I was there because I ran out and I had to send asking for more from the boys and I met him and he wasn't involved in any of this but he soon became that just he managed to get me six kilos of hash I took the 1952 ancient Grundig radio from his parents house the Shelf there guttered the thing like a fish wrapped it up and he had to get cling film in those days think of this before you travel arriving with a suitcase full of cling film doesn't look good I suppose but uh wedged it in there and then just flew back to Sydney now you can imagine what happened well just before we get on to what happened you know one thing that strikes me is what year was would this have been this was uh 77 77 so it's amazing think that back then if someone was going to India for the first time now they could go on Google Maps they could research it or they could find out who they could find phone numbers contacts they could be put in contact with people before they've even set off whereas you must have at that age at that time been going in slightly blind you know touching down in a foreign country that you didn't know well no contacts was that not quite daunting well what was more um troubling with um how everything would fail and then I'd have to um you know come up with another plan what context somebody I knew um um there were no bank robber who joined the hare krishnas and fled to India right and I had his name and and the ashram in Delhi where where he was was supposed to have been uh I didn't really catch up with him on that trip but okay sure so so then you get back to Australia with your radio that is now full to the brim with and I get stopped you you did get stopped okay I could stop because uh I'm I'm on a British passport um and it's the only trip I've ever done and I'm that age I'd stop me oh fatherly type was at the Customs desk now the the systems were different in those days um it was Sydney too which is very and certainly was very relaxed back then right he opened the suitcase uh there was nothing in there except a pair of socks there's a towel wrapping up this massive radio which he lifted up so it was buckled at the sides little red packets poking out oh it smelled like a hedgehog for a patchouliers okay not much of a disguise um he let me go he uh put it back looked around to make sure that none of his workmates were watching him being so soft um and then turned to me and said you're going back there you're going to do this again [Music] all right you can take your we'll call it a radio shall we get out of here what he thought I realized later was that he didn't want the whole grammar of the day arresting me filling out papers and it would have been a a long time plus I guess being a dad he thought if I he's obviously an idiot you're right if I send him into Gladiator Academy or it wasn't really like that in those days but certainly contact center um the prison what am I doing um well I guess uh he was hopeful you know I whilst out of there must have smuggling me but I experienced then what um I got years later which was kind of a real Downer after you know having got nowhere with The Hare krishnas and and cultivated the shoeshine boys and had my money stolen at Amex uh by some Scallywags in Delhi all sorts of Little Adventures over there in India and nonetheless made it it's kind of like that's all there is to it I I didn't really want to give it to anyone um sort of felt like you didn't have a big moment of no a bit of money that came earlier that's handy right uh I paid back what I owed and settled up for for the next thing so but once that was started when you sorry I interrupted you go oh I was just going to say it to finish it even though they'd funded me the guys were very surprised to see me back but at all at all oh you made it oh because some of them say oh you'll just run away with it uh even if that's what he's doing who knows what he's doing you know and then I could see sitting around you can imagine there's like a table full of well like three guys and then a kind of Darkness shrouded over that room I thought uh it's not valuable enough to kill me you know what what is this mood why did you bring that well that's what you've been talking about yeah you could have loaded that with cane or smack or something you guys we say nothing but terrible things about a class or heavy drugs that don't want to know about it right and I could read then that wait a minute there we're all might be guys together and having fun getting into the safe and whatnot but there was a kind of different it was something a very strong lesson I'd have to be thoughtful about that um there could be times where things didn't work out not necessarily that my safety was at risk I didn't see it that way but I knew that there were Ruthless People right okay yeah so you got an insight into a mindset that had been a bit below the surface it was there I just chose not to see it but um I then went on to you know refine everything and Vary everything and then did you after that first time did you were you still working sort of for them or did you immediately well when you wake up on your own when things um I picked up and there was enough money around out of uh out of strategy rather than just being a nice guy I gave my partners a kind of thank you bonus from the next thing that I did but I did that all myself right so it was almost like a yeah separation and I wanted to go back to the my hippie friends anyway they were a little less it wasn't that they were scary but but that didn't last because they were maybe friends might be all right but they will certainly careless and stupid but from from that point onwards after that initial Journey was that you then into the world of smuggling I thought this won't last forever you only need one setback and that changes it I probably made quite a lot of money and I could have got out but and I should have gotta you know I have couriers a leak from one of the the couriers brought the police to me and here was the problem with it it was at first I scattered now I was married to my first wife then clearly Italian girl her dad had restaurants I grabbed her I had a secret drawer with extra passports in it some money ended up four plane Journeys later in um off the Bahamas had the skipper of a day rent yacht and take me out to an island and nobody had ever been on before it was empty sat there on a towel I thought hmm the level of surveillance I had means it's quite a big operation they're funded and I checked with a lawyer before the bigger the money they spent the more determined they'll be stay away or go back I mean I don't know why would anybody do this uh well I wasn't broke um I didn't have to there was no pressure on me the more I went through the problems the more attractive the whole thing is uh she didn't like it much well again do you think because it was a puzzle to be solved because um arrogance really we've gone from basically someone who was kind of mildly interested in making a group of people meeting a group of um safe hackers to someone who pulled off their first thing and then we've jumped to someone who has people working for them and and now is no longer taking the risk themselves now the police are on to you and you're on this desert island well small island and you're thinking about going back into it was this like a turning point in your life in terms of going you know because the other option I suppose was to go straight but were you just more it was that just not an option for you I'd gone to my lawyer Ralph he said look this is what I picked up because I my travel agent had tipped me to a couple of detectives that come in he traveled again while I was in on the phone okay uh actually they're all innocent really yeah you know and and gave him a long list of names um they wanted travel details for and a telephone number which I traced uh to um a private office building which had been rented by state and federal police they were so distrusting of their own they didn't want to even run this thing from um regular police headquarters my lawyer said well what you sure it's you said Ralph look at the list of names there's 30 there I'm 26 of them passports are a lot easier to get back then than there now so you had 26 aliases that you were traveling on yeah right okay um and I described where they were he said David they are funded well they're not bear this in mind but although I what they won't get me with anything they're funded you think they're going to walk away after a year and say oh sorry boss you spend a million dollars and uh nothing doing they don't work like that but this is how stubborn I was I thought because he said the only thing you can do is disappear for at least a couple of years and then you can come back if that's what you want and of course I had justifications for it I thought okay I'll I'll build up a bit more money and then I'll disappear but um it was only after things went terribly badly that I realized I shouldn't play like this anymore what it was they um because the challenge just kept coming so now so did you go back to Australia I went back to Australia and and when I retired within three months right but they weren't waiting for you to arrest you or no no they wanted they wanted something solid okay [Music] um I won't go into the long machinations of it all but um somebody we knew uh was getting things from a Thai Courier and he got arrested he sold us out to the police so that that The Courier would now come to us and I always have some solid evidence right he would bring things but we got away with that because that was another challenge but the police got tired of all this arrested me no drugs of course so it was a difficult case the worst kind of case is that where there's no solid evidence and in a way it's better to go to court where you've got a Smoking Gun and a dead body on the ground because at least you know where you are but where there's nothing tangible and it's conspiracies and this was a huge trial six months long what is that 119 Witnesses 6 000 pages of uh telephone intercept massive thing won't made it worse too and I think this was um would change things for me um the pressure was put on for confessions but it'd be silly to confess and you can't confess on somebody else's behalf can you that's not nice um lots of the family were arrested even my mother was taken and it went oh wow just to put pressure on uh did she know what you did oh she had an idea right okay I mean I used to have bin liners full of money I'd leave behind the fridge yeah you don't get that in the cinema do you not done not a very good day you know uh because they arrested so many people now when they arrested our wives and my business partner Michael his wife just had a baby it was we had to do a deal here I didn't want to but I was going to say I said to Michael look I know you don't like it but we'll play to it get the girls out of trouble we'll Escape that's a good challenge that way [Music] um but unfortunately um the intelligence section put an arsonist Informer in with the girls to get some information her fire was lit uh burnt down the women's prison and my wife and my business partner's wife was were killed uh that's awful and so the Informer that they put in there yeah why did they pick an arsonist for Daniel writer name was I don't know why I remember that after 40 years God so that's quite a big that was oh and and just uh to make things worse the story put about town to scare the careers into talking because they wouldn't speak was that we'd we were killing off all the witnesses and starting with our own family where does that come from um we ended up in a super max prison nightmarish electronic zoo with two inch glass and electronic doors and insane inmates held 48 death rate 27 people a year died in that little supermax going to court in Chains with a SWAT team taking it it was so so much Michael fell to pieces he was just a wreck he didn't make it uh he survived the jail but died when he got out the only way I could survive all of that was to strip away everything I you know I found myself in the supermax concrete everything's concrete the bed everything there's no everything's still just with the tape player from my lure listening to the the tapes the bug tapes the microphones in my house I could play back my life for the last six months clearly you're moving from room to room taking telephone calls she was crying about something I didn't know what I never know and David that's gone immerse yourself in the worst that they have you will not survive this otherwise trial sort of went not so good acquitted of most things but convicted enough 10 years difficult imprisonment but I the only way I could deal with it was to say did I want revenge that was more my fault I brought this about I got her in there I mean a family of a very kind to me about it considering I wouldn't be but it doesn't matter in Chains and super Mech strip it all away it is nothing everyone is a potential enemy everything it just nothing mattered win the day win the night I mean this is a place we had to fill in a book to get some toilet paper the showers were in front of them in a glass box um if you went on a visit they'd zip you up and lock you in a suit so you had no pockets there was after that and her death I felt like there was nothing that could affect me you're wrong about these things you know we're human but I got out and they were there they even visited me to say we'll be on you when you get out the police yeah we enjoyed the old days didn't you yeah I said pretending you know and just to make the point that they were there when I got out um I I'd done a whole lot of Woodwork in the prison in the last place I was at carving intricate things making these really great trick Chinese boxes with beeswax they intercepted the van that was taking it from the prison back to my house and smashed it all to pieces I put it in a box just to say don't think that we will never be here we can do what we want so I decided to leave the country I was um how old am I by then let's work it out yeah uh I started all this Mischief when I was about 18 got arrested at 22. 23 uh um 16 years 17 years either under surveillance or in bad prisons got out and I'm under surveillance again um so how old so you're number 37 about 37. so that's already you know that's a big chunk of Life there but you've lost quite a lot of it to prison or surveillance well at no point now were you like okay and I wasn't a normal person uh really when I got out because of the experience of prison I'd already stripped most of Myself Away to deal with the death of the Superman yeah and and watching people be burnt to death in the place which was frequent somebody had contact glue pulled all over him and then satellite oh God Gods came in and the other one's standing there with a Tire swinging it around to make sure to let him burn let him burn Jesus Barry's name was testicles swollen like apples but black okay he died two hours later in hospital anyway um that was regular account to deal with that I'd already strip things away so when I got a little apartment when I got out and my mother had arranged things for me when they were there when they'd leave rude messages on my answer machine when they'd be behind me everywhere I thought all right I remember this David it never ends if you want to survive go back to the way you were you know in in the super max Anything Can Happen anytime but I didn't want to live like that um I got a fresh passport and most elaborate means um I could spend a week explaining how that came into existence but I went to Thailand to pick up some money I had three days there it was just before Christmas I left at that time on purpose so that they maybe I thought maybe it's their weak point that they want to have families in their life just at Christmas I've parked my mum's car and and left the keys somewhere for her nobody knew were you not meant to leave the country no no no licenses oh I see we're just going to take a minute here to talk about a sponsor of this show which is manscaped we were sent a package to try out by manscaped but Conor one of our producers is already a fan of the brand I believe yeah absolutely I've been using manscape for a little while now and Ben as you know it's that time of year people start asking you what you want for Christmas and I would say that a great gift for a man especially one that might have everything is the manscape performance package 4.0 so what's in that so you get the lawnmower 4.0 electric trimmer you get some anti-chafe boxer shorts which I can vouch for as well as a couple of other grooming products that smell great fantastic well it sounds like a five-star review from uconnor absolutely so Connor you were talking about the performance package there's loads of other great gift ideas such as the hygiene bundle all available at manscape.com com and all gifts that men will genuinely love to receive this Christmas if you are a listener of this podcast you get 20 off and free shipping all you have to do is go to manscape.com and use the code minutes that's manscape.com m-i-n-u-t-e-s minutes um so why are we doing that the risk is it worth it I didn't want to play anymore right I wanted to uh see if I could have a something resembling like a a real life just to find some corner of the world plan was to to return to London and oh so you were leaving forever I'm leaving forever okay I see nobody knew it um I had a couple of hundred thousand in Thailand I thought um which I returned to pick up um now I suppose people say this Crooks always say this most unusual circumstances led to my arrest well they were but then again they always are aren't they or you wouldn't be telling the story or you wouldn't have been arrested but um the USDA was involved lots of people lots of players uh no real drugs are found uh they did an airport sweep and listed me up for like an ounce of something and a false passport or two the money I had just disappeared into pockets but those when I arrived there I felt so free I knew this identity was good I just like floating on air really I slipped out of my protective mode you know that when we stick to the plan and all right you don't want to leave I should have even stayed there for six months just get some sensible view of the world but I I didn't uh and as I went to the airport I could see they were all around me and I melted back into the crowd and disappeared again I thought well that serves me right for changing that attitude I'd had from back in super max and I just glaze over concentrate on the details which I needed to do because when I went to make a phone call later at the travel agency uh waiting it was so depressing being thrown into the Thai prison and I had some idea what they'd be like um people I'd known had been arrested there I knew this much it never won a case you never get out well you get out and what were they arresting you for was it the the uh the passport um what did the the the money wasn't I mean what did they leave 4 000 or something like that right and there are airports we put um I saw the guy walking in with it in a plastic bag you know whatever people throw on the floor before they go through security there was a bit of hash this usual bits of weed but what they really wanted was um this 25 grams of heroin because that would finish me off a policeman um Australian one said was that yours yeah yeah sure it was he said I didn't think so what would you be carrying around that for I mean if it was 10 kilos I might understand but but that was enough the death penalty and was it yours no no no so where where would that come from if you do they do a sweep every afternoon at five o'clock they get tons of it right I get you know nervous passengers go up and then they change their minds and they throw it in the toilet too and were they just did do you think they believed it was yours or do you think they were just going this is we need to give him this bit no no I think they were using it hoping to that would be good to hold and maybe they could get something else find out what I was up to who I was seeing because I had met um somebody who's whose uncle was a big player right so there was there was I think they were optimistic there might be more Camp come out of it but but there wasn't but what difference did it make and I wasn't really worried about um those drugs or the death penalty I wanted to die anyway frankly my first escape plans from there had this I imagine getting out to find the Privacy to kill myself right I wanted to go to the dusa Tony Hotel I knew Which floor and where to get onto the roof I'd taken photographs from there many years before um they were you simply couldn't get a moment's piece dormitories with 150 guys in them screaming all night um we can't even take a crap in peace in the Thai prison We're Not Afraid though of what killing myself well no I mean I don't know being brutalized by the guards or the inmates so well I knew enough about Thailand to to know that it was a little more comic than than bad there were very bad things happen they used to um they've beaten people a couple of people get beaten to death every day there but it's a very big prison we have to get that in proportion I only wish they wouldn't use the food trolley to take the dead bodies out because um you know they don't clean them up um and could you speak the language or were you quite it was a quite different communication uh not really uh and the few languages that uh pitch up in my travels I always found that even if you know them it's better to pretend you don't okay um because they'll talk about you behind your back you know certainly didn't live it on there was I I just couldn't see any point I'd gone to such elaborate precautions on this trip um it just shouldn't have happened and I even got away from the airport and still it happened oh all that confidence that I'll figure a way out I didn't care anymore I just had enough um and I remember seeing an old guy there if you had to go to court they put change on you and um you'd line up on the ground now this old guy I was looking at him because I don't know why a big soundtrack went past he had the presence of mind to push his head under that sand truck and oh it twisted it around popped like a watermelon being dropped on the ground oh my God guys very annoyed told the trustees to get that thing away out of sight was that nice thing called it I thought you Brave bastard you yeah you've got the guts to do that was it not quite a disturbing thing to witness no it was shocking because if you haven't seen it kind of thing up close and I happen to be looking um it was uh but that that's how I felt about it but I was saved In The End by a con man and people say a lot of bad things about economy they do yes they do and they uh you can't be trusted uh they are rottenness and they will cheat you just because they're the Scorpion that's in their nature uh but sometimes they're just what you need and this rather smooth um Bostonian American um who spoke Thai and really knew his way around and I you know I thought the somewhere in this huge prison there'd be an enclave of rich and corrupt foreigners with loads of money and there'd be luxuries it wasn't there was nobody of any importance in there you know a couple of big sacrifices had been made but um a couple of very rich policemen who were in the hospital in intensive care but other than that it was it was just um the people who reached the absolute bottom Drifters in Asia who did run after run and then got sacrificed to the machine they'd get about four jobs a big Syndicate there operating careers had run four times bang they'd shot them to the police they'd be gone oh God they will turn told the same story and it was Joe it was this guest house it was such and such identical and um and and at this point had you been sentenced to death had you received oh no no no I I was trying to avoid that yeah once I came to my senses because the the Boston con had so many wonderful schemes medical thing to get me bail and know some way of a escape with a go to court I get snatched from there I had villains come over and and scope out the court too because there was a way I thought of getting out of there from the lift that took you up to the the building uh snatched from the middle as you go down changed into a different set of clothes but they all got scared thing about um some of our most loved uh and fearless villains they're pretty good in the local manner but you throw them into a place like that where people carry machine guns and shoot at will just for the hell of it not so confident they like the upper edge of being snakes um so I couldn't convince anybody to really help and it was just as well um and two and a half years passed there in this prison it's a long time it was I sort of perked up a little bit pulled myself together started exercising um got a couple of ATM cards over hadn't my favorite god um he was in charge of the the building bought myself a room renovated um so you had you bought a room within the prison that was just for you rented that's rented right you know and is that an official thing that you're allowed to do right there are places in the world where it's official right but you had an influx of money that you could pay for special treats you could survive there on um less than 500 pounds a month and be king oh wow was this the 70s or the 80s now by the way we're into um 90 495 19 the 495 because what's reported about you is that during the 80s you were a multi-millionaire um is that accurate um now what do we call a multi-millionaires a young halfway with a million and a quarter on a glass coffee table and looks around the living room and thinks I've got to get a sofa one of these days um oh goes to the car auctions in the morning buys a big yank tank with a 427 Chevy engine in it um drives it around makes his own car parking spaces you know we're smashing the front in backing the other one pushing the other cars out of the way um oh stoned off my head most of the time uh if I wasn't stunned enough I'd take a few mandracks just to colludes icing on the cake um so I didn't take care of the money and the money didn't take care of me so I guess I'm like the reason I the reason I asked was because it must have been quite a stark change going from a very rich existence to basically somewhere where you basically couldn't pay for anything initially and it was a very poor existence but I guess from what you're saying there it's not like you felt like you were Rich at the time um I've made that contrast a few times when I had my first big arrest I couldn't as I was in a cold near lightless cell of blue stone and horse hair mattress about two inches thick and wrecking a piss I would think back to the night before when I had my important to tell in huge bed and Irish linen sheets and swimming pool out there and um and we had to kind of shake off the contrast but that rubber banding must must have been hard to take because it's you're going from basically the aspiration of almost everyone where you're talking about just buying cars outright and having a swimming pool to a piss stinking bed you know it must be it was you know it's odd thing about it was providing I could see a way out a work a way out I didn't so much mind oh okay um I really trained myself to expect my whatever world I built up and and this happened several times I've done it five times had a new identity New Life new surroundings even new people and dang they're gone and every time it got worse um and there was even Thailand was desperately important because even though it was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it um you know I was somebody that nobody minded killing um so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah there's nothing like the prospect of being executed by a machine gun which is the way they did it God is that what it would have been wow yeah you know oh they'd have three guards all with a bit of string on the trigger and they'd all pull it once so that none of them could be condemned in the Buddhist sense of sin oh they don't even actually right I see it caused the bullet that finished you off oh I see so you're in the Thai prison you've been sentenced to uh rather unpleasant death penalty um how did you start coming up with this famous plan for escaping um desperation it was the last plan that looked like it was going to work um there were probably about 20 plans considered um everything from being the prison held I've since found out it holds 22 000 people oh my God in 10 sub prisons uh there's a women's section there's a young offenders there's a special reminder a drug unit all of that um just a wild place it has everything it even had a prisoner-run shop where you could extract you could borrow money against your account and cash anyway um one of the plans involved being welded into a VW Combi van in the prisons Auto Workshop which would be picked up early Monday morning and I'd be driven out and that another one was um there were several courtroom ones and you couldn't just pay your way out no no it's just you could pay to have a mobile phone which in those days was a rare thing but they were around um you could pay for a bottle of clong uh whiskey you could pay I'm sure you could pay to get a a girl in your room if you could work out what a room was that a whole section full of ladyboys there and got a building full of them they used to open it up on Saturdays so um you could pay for anything but not to leave they couldn't cover that and they couldn't trust each other you would need 25 30 different guards paid off and and the gods of visitors I mean too many guides no that wouldn't work and they looked at it as a kind of betrayal only if I saw two escapes attempts there one group of uh straight kids and a Singaporean got out of their cell incredibly turned themselves into the sleeping God when they'd all lied to each other about what they didn't have you know the ropes and ways out because they're it was so outraged that they'd spoiled the guys jobs they beat them to death slowly tortured them over three months to death having put them in little code lockers the soy they call them drag them out in elephant chains every day and batter them senseless uh internal bleeding usually did it um look I've got a bowl of rice and a painting to poo in that was it um even the water was it was just too horrible so if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off even my Swedish friends Sten the Viking he backed out at the last minute I couldn't get people to go with me all the other plants had fallen to bits because they depended on other people I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars and I needed equipment for that and here's a really important point I guess as bad as this world is you've got to try to find good people if you ask somebody if you asked your friend yeah and and you're finished you'll manage to get a phone call and say friend it's been here um I need you to get um I don't know four hacksaw blades and cut them into the dowel rods of a of a poster and then paint it all up and send it in a huge package with this that cable ties gaffer tape but disguise all that how many people are going to do it turn around wouldn't believe it Ben called me what his neck yeah he's screwed but anyway he wouldn't believe but he wants me to do this that now people don't do it but Michael on the other hand our business partner wouldn't even let me explain he hadn't heard from me in 18 months he said David don't explain I'm sure we could get cut off tell me the important part now where do I have to be and what do I have to bring no that's a friend um and so I've always tried to do the same for the others that I've known like that um but um I did get the equipment together that I needed and everything um about escapes from a big prison is not like your hope it's going to be you know I turned it out walked around the streets and it had streets inside it um and timed it with my trusty Casio and it was so I knew roughly how long it would take to get me but the night's a different world I'm a prisoner I'm only used to noise during the day even the fan chopping around in the Cell at night it's so quiet everything I did squeaked and rattled and twisted I came across a panel that had to be a nail had to come out and that and they'll protest it and scream their wrench out of the way it took um uh seven or eight worlds uh sorry seven or eight walls to cross over I say worlds because they really were every building was a different thing and I got lost and I went past the terminal AIDS Ward that building hundreds of guys all die and I could smell it before I got there because this necrotic Rotting Flesh and I couldn't resist looking in I'm carrying this huge long ladder made out of bamboo poles and fake picture frames gaffer taped along the center [Music] um and I looked up and I saw all these little faces in the Moonlight wrapped in so much pain and despair they didn't have the energy to cry out to the guards if they'd been in any other prisoners they would have the trustees there were absolute scum of the earth had whistled little uniforms sell the drugs one day and the rest of the guys for it the next all of that um and it was only by um well I only got to the outer wall by Dawn and if somebody had been with me I wouldn't have made it either you wouldn't have no imagine I've taken all night to get there and at each point where this something was unexpected I've had to dream up something and I get a little basic toolkit and I sometimes I'd have to sacrifice part of my ladder to make a hook to pull down barbed wire and the technique for using the thing was awkward you had to prop it walk up drop down the other side so you're twisting over the walls like that manual is entirely barbed wire so I had to go underneath it covered in mud the the last one was really too high and there was a Mars bar Creek the the moat that ran around I did you know if I was with somebody else we'd be arguing wouldn't we oh Spa Creek oh it was full of turds bombing around it was caught out of the sewer yeah you did ask um illustrative okay we're just gonna take a quick break from the show to talk about a sponsor of this episode better help better help is an online Counseling Service which connects people to therapists and counselors I'm joined by one of our producers bryony is counseling something you've had experience with do you know what it's interesting because when I was growing up the same kind of challenges in life would happen but people wouldn't necessarily go to therapy or talk about therapy and I feel like since uh maybe my late teens early 20s people are starting to go to therapy and talking about it and I have definitely used it in my life and it's been massively beneficial same and do you because I think one of the things that people often mistake they think it's just for big things yeah but what's the other experience of that thing I think life always throws you know small challenges and large challenges and sometimes the big things need talking about but actually you know starting a new school or starting a new job can rile up that same level of anxiety and it's just really helpful to be able to talk to someone about it who is completely impartial not involved in your life and just kind of a safe space I guess to just say whatever you want to say you completely agree as the world's largest therapy service better help as much 3 million people with professionally licensed and vetted therapists available 100 online plus it's affordable just fill out a brief questionnaire to match with a therapist if things aren't clicking you can easily switch to a new therapist anytime it couldn't be simpler no waiting rooms no traffic no endless searching for the right therapist learn more and save 10 of your first month at betterhelp.com minutes with that's betterhelp help help.com minutes with um now there was one way of oh Beyond marsburg create this a foot and a half of land before this huge huge wall you've got to get a ladder that's too heavy to carry too imbalanced to do anything with but you've got a bit of rope how do you get it to the other side of Mars bar which has all got tangled barb wire in that so it'll catch get it in place and up against the wall when you've got no ground to to walk on now there is a way and uh I guess people have to listen to me describe it either to you or in my book okay fine but too long to tell here sure but um I could see the glow of dawn as I got to the top which had electricity running through it too just to make it the top of the wall dead yeah yeah wow but um my friend who um was in there a bit of a technician is to belong to the anarchist Society in in Britain how would you belong to a society that has rules when you anyway putting that aside he did tell me that it would only be 240 volts but to be careful um and just managed to get over that and because the original plan was to um oh there was an outer moat beyond that of 20 meters I had my clothes ready to go into a plastic bag swim the moat but just as well I didn't um because all it turned out all the guards houses were over the other side of that moat this would not be a place to go but I cleaned myself up threw some clothes on and I one of the jobs that I didn't do but I was supposed to be doing was working in the Umbrella Factory so I paid a local boy to do it um I've got a pop-up umbrella from there I thought you know you really get a perspective about I want to just simple discrimination but being an outsider a foreigner the way sometimes people feel picked upon you know we were called the white trash and we were in in Chains and everything so I knew I had to cover my face in the popular did it and I managed to get to a place where a passport was hidden and to the airport and still had a working ATM card to get me out of the country into Singapore so did you end up with the umbrella did you walk out the front gate yeah I did I had some long trousers on now in their prisoners are not allowed to wear them so I had some khaki pants I thought they might as I walked around the the narrow path to the front gate it's still mote but a little Bridge I thought another figure it's a guard arriving late and sneaking in and I did I felt like Ripley an alien uh looking at thinking lucky lucky this is where it all ends doesn't it and I'm thinking that every moment and looking up and there was just enough light rain to justify the umbrella yeah I would learn later that was actually the not a rain from the gods but the spittle of their laughter because they had worse things in mind for me later on I mean it's so it's you know how many people are you aware how many people had escaped from that prison up to that point was it some every year or was it very infrequent none um the ties sometimes ran away when they were doing the gardens in Chains outside but Escape From Within um I'd known of in 20 years people could recall two attempts no foreigners um and they didn't trust the foreigners that's why they put you on the third floor right quite rightly yes and and how long had it taken you from like the beginning of the uh I started cutting at um 11 45 I paid a lot to get a light switch in there normally the lights are on all the time um okay and I said to my favorite guard oh yeah Ponting or whatever his name was I can't sleep with that thing I'll put a light switch in um um now they didn't say it as corruption or bribe taking they thought I'm doing this nice guy a favor and I'll be lucky because of it that's a very big thing over there you know if I get caught I'm unlucky then so they can batter me to death I mean sure it's kind of self-justifies any action that a human being might take so he started cutting around eight for 11 45 11 45 okay it's quite close through one bar by two in the morning oh God stencia listen we'll go on the next note I looked around and Kevin the American from Hawaii I didn't even know this was happening uh Mirage the Indian I know he's going to talk the next morning he was kakaria LA pantaloni right in the cell never mind holding out and not saying anything he would have it would have been finished I never would have made it and I guess I could have seen the missing bars potentially but I learned later on I actually caught up with somebody who was in there Scottish guy um he was there for selling ecstasy to the Two well-off Sons and Daughters of wealthy policemen anyway um he remembers they the guards couldn't figure that I'd left oh um he said David they ran around the the prison calling out your name it was Daniel Westlake while I was there Daniel Daniel they okay that somebody drew their attention to the cut bar in there yeah my Scottish friend said they the gods wanted they thought that okay he's got out he's angry about something uh Daniel but he's not actually he'll never get out he couldn't get it they never found the the ladder down the front wall until much much later so for um uh uh only one of them said oh we better check the airport they sent a couple of guys down there um just a little bit late and you were gone by then only just and remember man you've got a passport from a Chinese connection that you barely know but kind of like the cut of his jib but are you gonna put your life on the line on that and at every moment you're handing it over you know like the look of it yeah they don't like the look of it they're typing it up and you're thinking they got onto the computer have they done that bit uh have they entered my arrival was this I knew it was freshly stolen or sold off was only a few weeks old uh I mean not new was had only gone missing a few weeks earlier so it was still good but very nerve-wracking and I didn't have a photo I had to use my old um uh radio operators license that had a photograph in it to get reproduced into this thing so it was a bit grainy um and even on the plane it was delay and takeoff oh God and a mumbling Captain oh sorry um we we have a thing with one passenger I just asked what thing exactly soon enough thwomp doors to manual oh but I've got an hour you know looking at this passport I don't like it get to Singapore but I make it through so you got to Singapore yeah but you did end up going back to prison not a Thai prison but a different prison he's suggesting uh I did something wrong well I'm hoping you're going to tell me um no well okay uh I didn't stay in Singapore long because um I sat there in the hotel room unable to digest food not prepared by my own cook sure I in the hotel room in Singapore I realized you could work out who had left that day if they'd flown my air by simply going to the airport and children you work it out yourselves at home you check everybody who's left separate the foreigners hmm go a step further let's keep the Canadian and American the British the Australian New Zealand all the English-speaking passport Society um just to you know reduce the numbers take those names check with the embassies any of these names belong to lost or stolen passports that have been reported yeah five of them because that's Bangkok you know not the only Mischief maker there but nonetheless um they probably knew I could be who was I Charles McClintock hmm sorry Charles I had to borrow your passport but it was an essential cause but you're not wanted anymore of course are you no but I did get an unwelcome knock at the door some years ago uh by the police who um would it be to go excuse me Westminster Court known for the terrorist cases extradition or parking fights wow I'd lift the car anywhere lately so it was going to be one of the other two and it was extradition to Thailand I fought that case for two years and um it was difficult um but managed to effectively win in the end so the ties have dropped that one and I can't be taken back there I'm not wanted anywhere um I can nobody can do what they want but um I I'm not I haven't got anything pending I'm not in business I'm a bit cautious I even got sent something in the the mail a few years ago and I thought it was some gift from some halfway ambitious wombat in in Pakistan sending me a bit of dope thinking oh yeah there's a gift you might like that connection made no I mean people had my address all around the world ever since Danny Dyer um it turned out to be more complicated than that but um very dangerous for me to walk into a courtroom so I don't even imagine you're me and knock at the door oh here's something for you Ben you don't like the look of it you refuse it you're in court no matter why did you refuse that was it your name no you was up The Jig was up proof ladies and gentlemen oh you accept it ah you accepted it proof ladies and gentlemen wife saying to me Jeanette and whom I met in Pakistan years ago and she was there to fish out her husband on a two-ton hash deal he didn't make it anyway um she said throw the thing away I'm thinking in court again ladies and gentlemen he threw the stuff away I can't win so very cautious about all that kind of stuff um fair enough but I take it you won't be going for a holiday to Thailand anytime soon I didn't think so okay so how many do you know off the top of your head of your life how many years of your life have you spent in prison ultimately I did add it up once I'm 66 now and I suppose I've spent um but 22 years the thing that occurs to me and I met you before and I thought the same thing is like you obviously extremely intelligent extremely resourceful it can't be well but well anyway but do you regret the choices you made in terms of do you see those 22 years in prison as something you had no control over it's just the way the dice rolled or do you see them as a mistake on your part um worse than a mistake mistake suggest you didn't know uh where you were going wrong I was taking those steps into uh of a precipice that I'd defied there is no gravity I said I said I will work out something before I hit the ground um when I was It was kind of in stages when I was young it was just arrogance and and showing off and later on when everything was destroyed it was kind of I'd scraped away all of my life and would just go on um then in the third stage it was escaping away from places rebuilding up and being weakened every time it was taken away again um and do I regret it yeah I'm sure I um no you know some people say oh yeah but David just smuggled everything on Earth you scumbag you you know um think of the lives you've destroyed and the people you've heard ah and I go to start to explain that it's not quite black and white uh I mean I've had drug habits myself that I've carelessly allowed um but I thought what's the point anything I say we just sound like self-justification so well don't listen to me then you know but things that have happened that have taught me a lot it's interesting you say that because one of a lot of the comments on our well on the first video we did a lot of the comments where people saying someone needs to make a movie about this guy but a lot of the other comments were people saying he's so charismatic and likable but he must be a really dangerous person to have been involved with all these worlds for so long and um we've interviewed a couple of drug smugglers and I would say they're the ones that I've met have been the ones that probably are more someone you'd see is traditionally quite an obviously dangerous person you come across as very Charming charismatic roguish where do you see yourself on that scale do you see yourself as someone who was dangerous or do you see yourself as someone who's just moved from area to area as it occurred um kind of like this a dangerous I suppose what most people see that and you know if somebody was a problem for me would I find the best option to have them killed or not but really there always was a kind of Vestige of that's a failure if you can't think of anything better than to have them killed then then then what are you doing there's a million clever ways of solving your problems and that besides which there's always going to be people you can't kill everybody um not only that who killed the killers that you've got to do the killing you know you know they always say that about the quiet ones and all of that but it was the people who bothered to put up a smoke screen um they're establishing a um later Alibi a courtroom personality but I met him he didn't seem bothered by all of that why would he have him killed and those are the ones that um seem to be more dangerous and if I was such a dangerous person like that I certainly been absolute fool to break from that mold and say otherwise wouldn't it very true David it's great to see you again thank you so much for coming in always a pleasure yeah and I've Got a Feeling we'll be seeing you again at some point as well it's possible it does may cross thank you I'll be like oh my God they're in my head they they know they know that was a song and so they put that song on the radio and it's all everything revolves around me or you know and this happened well sometimes happens today you know I'm I'm thinking of someone in my head someone under there like on the street	or sold off was only a few weeks old uh I mean not new was had only gone missing a few weeks earlier so it was still good but very nerve-wracking and I didn't have a photo I had to use my old um uh radio operators license that had a photograph in it to get reproduced into this thing so it was a bit grainy um and even on the plane it was delay and takeoff oh God and a mumbling Captain oh sorry um we we have a thing with one passenger I just asked what thing exactly soon enough thwomp doors to manual oh but I've got an hour you know looking at this passport I don't like it get to Singapore but I make it through so you got to Singapore yeah but you did end up going back to prison not a Thai prison but a different prison he's suggesting uh I did something wrong well I'm hoping you're going to tell me um no well okay uh I didn't stay in Singapore long because um I sat there in the hotel room unable to digest food not prepared by my own cook sure I in the hotel room in Singapore I realized you could work out who had left that day if they'd flown my air by simply going to the airport and children you work it out yourselves at home you check everybody who's left separate the foreigners hmm go a step further	-2	6	-3	or sold off was only a few weeks old uh I mean not new was had only gone missing a few weeks earlier so it was still good but very nerve-wracking and I didn't have a photo I had to use my old um uh radio operators license that had a photograph in it to get reproduced into this thing so it was a bit grainy um and even on the plane it was delay and takeoff oh God and a mumbling Captain oh sorry um we we have a thing with one passenger I just asked what thing exactly soon enough thwomp doors to manual oh but I've got an hour you know looking at this passport I don't like it get to Singapore but I make it through so you got to Singapore yeah but you did end up going back to prison not a Thai prison but a different prison	he's suggesting uh I did something wrong well I'm hoping you're going to tell me	2,-5,3	0,2,-2	2	-5	3	0	2	-2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyZyHHexx7s	4,101	oyZyHHexx7s	2022-12-07 00:00:00	even though I was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off I couldn't get people to go with me I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars [Music] it's great to have you back David obviously we've met before but for anyone who doesn't know who you are for new listeners or new viewers could you give us a brief introduction to what you are famous for well I suppose uh most well known for uh having escaped to prison in Thailand in Bangkok uh the biggest one they have there clong Prim it uh wasn't something I did frivolously I was going to be executed within a couple of weeks so it seemed like a good time to leave okay now um we're going to get into that in a bit more detail but one thing that I remember about you from last time is you're the most incredible talker and we took away the inter the initial interview we've done with you and ended up having to make it into two long episodes because you have a lot of different very colorful uh experiences so do forgive me if I Jimmy us through oh no I can understand that I mean the only place I never talk is in the police station I always like some of my uh work colleagues took um what was it one slap to get them talking but five to shut them up oh okay so let's go right back to the beginning um you were born in the UK and then I believe you emigrated to Australia well um it was all a family thing yes I was born in basewater in London I spent the first few years of my life then uh there but my parents broke up divorced and I went with my mother to Australia with my older sister so I don't have any really very early memories of London apart from some old eight millimeter movie footage of me learning to walk in Hyde Park my dad was waving a five pound note in front of my face and I was making every effort to grab it I continued that behavior for many many years afterwards returned to Australia um finished some schooling um got really contrasting jobs I worked in an adult Agency for a while um but also before that I was got a job in a cinema now it was the and under literally an underground place but it was there that I got introduced to a bunch of crooks um some of the girls there had boyfriends that I used to run down with um strange boxes or bits of money or fur coats and then wink at me bolt out the back door pursued by often policemen undercover ones of course whom we'd misdirect somewhere but that Circle they were um safe crackers and they really didn't trust Outsiders and didn't much like the sound of me but because of I demonstrated a couple of things by being look everybody was really very anti-authority then I I don't mean hostile but for people now they they wouldn't have experienced that in the uh late 60s 70s we were so snotty and arrogant we really thought we were going to change the world and that um the laws were all nothing and the way to change them was to break them well that was the kind of vanity we had so um when I got to know the safe crackers uh better there was something really interesting I mean I didn't like the idea you know stealing things seemed a bit tacky but on the other hand they kind of all needed the money from the from their backgrounds and everything but that wasn't so much the the interest it was the technicalities of getting into these things okay um they used to drill through the top um having anchored it with the drill with clamps and and put a kind of little lens inside a cystoscope used in medicine and watch the the wheels turning around this is the old kind of old-fashioned Hollywood style it was yeah and um behind the safe were three discs and you had to line them up and they'd once they got in they'd take the door with them so that the opposition the safe makers wouldn't know how they'd got in and it was a a constant battle between the manufacturers and them because they've come across new safes which had Special Metals in it that was mixed like a a crunchy nut bar very hard metals very soft ones so the drill bit would slip on them snap and you got a sense that this was almost like a game where um they would try something then try to beat them and they were very loyal to each other um they they never spoke out of school as it were um when I got involved with them I'd only have to if I had trouble I don't have to make one phone call and people would appear out of nowhere and I thought yeah this this is kind of better than the treacherous boys school that I I grew up in and how old were you at this point um 19 years old 19. so were you thinking you were making a conscious decision to move into illegal activities or at that point in time and at that point in the world did it feel like more of a kind of a bit of roguish fun would you say I was drawn to it anyway because it was interesting and um I didn't really have a lot of fear I think sometimes what we do or don't do is depending on how scary it seems yeah agreed um I was born with a low resting heart rate as they say you know if it's below 70 you're a risk taker I don't know why that is when the safe crackers retired they put some of their money into growing little crops of weed and so on but profit margin is is only through importing because like the price difference is cheap in the source countries expensive where it sells so because they couldn't do it they were almost throwing it down like a challenge like we don't know anybody who can do this and I thought well I traveled a lot um I didn't think it was going to be impossible um I thought the odds were in my phone and I looked it up I went to the library and sort of researched it a bit and where were you thinking which country Well they um they were very keen to get some um hashish from India or Nepal or somewhere okay I could see um it's bulky and there's packing problems so um they funded me and off I sailed now the operation my first operation was so deplorably bad I'm barely 20 years old I my cunning plan which involved a big piece of exported Machinery which had weights in it so the weights would come out the cash would go in it would weigh the same being returned and it was a piece of Television equipment or something that went South immediately when I didn't realize that I would have to pay a huge deposit in duty to even bring it in as a demo machine so forget that I ended up in short meeting a guy in a money exchange section of a bank I was there because I ran out and I had to send asking for more from the boys and I met him and he wasn't involved in any of this but he soon became that just he managed to get me six kilos of hash I took the 1952 ancient Grundig radio from his parents house the Shelf there guttered the thing like a fish wrapped it up and he had to get cling film in those days think of this before you travel arriving with a suitcase full of cling film doesn't look good I suppose but uh wedged it in there and then just flew back to Sydney now you can imagine what happened well just before we get on to what happened you know one thing that strikes me is what year was would this have been this was uh 77 77 so it's amazing think that back then if someone was going to India for the first time now they could go on Google Maps they could research it or they could find out who they could find phone numbers contacts they could be put in contact with people before they've even set off whereas you must have at that age at that time been going in slightly blind you know touching down in a foreign country that you didn't know well no contacts was that not quite daunting well what was more um troubling with um how everything would fail and then I'd have to um you know come up with another plan what context somebody I knew um um there were no bank robber who joined the hare krishnas and fled to India right and I had his name and and the ashram in Delhi where where he was was supposed to have been uh I didn't really catch up with him on that trip but okay sure so so then you get back to Australia with your radio that is now full to the brim with and I get stopped you you did get stopped okay I could stop because uh I'm I'm on a British passport um and it's the only trip I've ever done and I'm that age I'd stop me oh fatherly type was at the Customs desk now the the systems were different in those days um it was Sydney too which is very and certainly was very relaxed back then right he opened the suitcase uh there was nothing in there except a pair of socks there's a towel wrapping up this massive radio which he lifted up so it was buckled at the sides little red packets poking out oh it smelled like a hedgehog for a patchouliers okay not much of a disguise um he let me go he uh put it back looked around to make sure that none of his workmates were watching him being so soft um and then turned to me and said you're going back there you're going to do this again [Music] all right you can take your we'll call it a radio shall we get out of here what he thought I realized later was that he didn't want the whole grammar of the day arresting me filling out papers and it would have been a a long time plus I guess being a dad he thought if I he's obviously an idiot you're right if I send him into Gladiator Academy or it wasn't really like that in those days but certainly contact center um the prison what am I doing um well I guess uh he was hopeful you know I whilst out of there must have smuggling me but I experienced then what um I got years later which was kind of a real Downer after you know having got nowhere with The Hare krishnas and and cultivated the shoeshine boys and had my money stolen at Amex uh by some Scallywags in Delhi all sorts of Little Adventures over there in India and nonetheless made it it's kind of like that's all there is to it I I didn't really want to give it to anyone um sort of felt like you didn't have a big moment of no a bit of money that came earlier that's handy right uh I paid back what I owed and settled up for for the next thing so but once that was started when you sorry I interrupted you go oh I was just going to say it to finish it even though they'd funded me the guys were very surprised to see me back but at all at all oh you made it oh because some of them say oh you'll just run away with it uh even if that's what he's doing who knows what he's doing you know and then I could see sitting around you can imagine there's like a table full of well like three guys and then a kind of Darkness shrouded over that room I thought uh it's not valuable enough to kill me you know what what is this mood why did you bring that well that's what you've been talking about yeah you could have loaded that with cane or smack or something you guys we say nothing but terrible things about a class or heavy drugs that don't want to know about it right and I could read then that wait a minute there we're all might be guys together and having fun getting into the safe and whatnot but there was a kind of different it was something a very strong lesson I'd have to be thoughtful about that um there could be times where things didn't work out not necessarily that my safety was at risk I didn't see it that way but I knew that there were Ruthless People right okay yeah so you got an insight into a mindset that had been a bit below the surface it was there I just chose not to see it but um I then went on to you know refine everything and Vary everything and then did you after that first time did you were you still working sort of for them or did you immediately well when you wake up on your own when things um I picked up and there was enough money around out of uh out of strategy rather than just being a nice guy I gave my partners a kind of thank you bonus from the next thing that I did but I did that all myself right so it was almost like a yeah separation and I wanted to go back to the my hippie friends anyway they were a little less it wasn't that they were scary but but that didn't last because they were maybe friends might be all right but they will certainly careless and stupid but from from that point onwards after that initial Journey was that you then into the world of smuggling I thought this won't last forever you only need one setback and that changes it I probably made quite a lot of money and I could have got out but and I should have gotta you know I have couriers a leak from one of the the couriers brought the police to me and here was the problem with it it was at first I scattered now I was married to my first wife then clearly Italian girl her dad had restaurants I grabbed her I had a secret drawer with extra passports in it some money ended up four plane Journeys later in um off the Bahamas had the skipper of a day rent yacht and take me out to an island and nobody had ever been on before it was empty sat there on a towel I thought hmm the level of surveillance I had means it's quite a big operation they're funded and I checked with a lawyer before the bigger the money they spent the more determined they'll be stay away or go back I mean I don't know why would anybody do this uh well I wasn't broke um I didn't have to there was no pressure on me the more I went through the problems the more attractive the whole thing is uh she didn't like it much well again do you think because it was a puzzle to be solved because um arrogance really we've gone from basically someone who was kind of mildly interested in making a group of people meeting a group of um safe hackers to someone who pulled off their first thing and then we've jumped to someone who has people working for them and and now is no longer taking the risk themselves now the police are on to you and you're on this desert island well small island and you're thinking about going back into it was this like a turning point in your life in terms of going you know because the other option I suppose was to go straight but were you just more it was that just not an option for you I'd gone to my lawyer Ralph he said look this is what I picked up because I my travel agent had tipped me to a couple of detectives that come in he traveled again while I was in on the phone okay uh actually they're all innocent really yeah you know and and gave him a long list of names um they wanted travel details for and a telephone number which I traced uh to um a private office building which had been rented by state and federal police they were so distrusting of their own they didn't want to even run this thing from um regular police headquarters my lawyer said well what you sure it's you said Ralph look at the list of names there's 30 there I'm 26 of them passports are a lot easier to get back then than there now so you had 26 aliases that you were traveling on yeah right okay um and I described where they were he said David they are funded well they're not bear this in mind but although I what they won't get me with anything they're funded you think they're going to walk away after a year and say oh sorry boss you spend a million dollars and uh nothing doing they don't work like that but this is how stubborn I was I thought because he said the only thing you can do is disappear for at least a couple of years and then you can come back if that's what you want and of course I had justifications for it I thought okay I'll I'll build up a bit more money and then I'll disappear but um it was only after things went terribly badly that I realized I shouldn't play like this anymore what it was they um because the challenge just kept coming so now so did you go back to Australia I went back to Australia and and when I retired within three months right but they weren't waiting for you to arrest you or no no they wanted they wanted something solid okay [Music] um I won't go into the long machinations of it all but um somebody we knew uh was getting things from a Thai Courier and he got arrested he sold us out to the police so that that The Courier would now come to us and I always have some solid evidence right he would bring things but we got away with that because that was another challenge but the police got tired of all this arrested me no drugs of course so it was a difficult case the worst kind of case is that where there's no solid evidence and in a way it's better to go to court where you've got a Smoking Gun and a dead body on the ground because at least you know where you are but where there's nothing tangible and it's conspiracies and this was a huge trial six months long what is that 119 Witnesses 6 000 pages of uh telephone intercept massive thing won't made it worse too and I think this was um would change things for me um the pressure was put on for confessions but it'd be silly to confess and you can't confess on somebody else's behalf can you that's not nice um lots of the family were arrested even my mother was taken and it went oh wow just to put pressure on uh did she know what you did oh she had an idea right okay I mean I used to have bin liners full of money I'd leave behind the fridge yeah you don't get that in the cinema do you not done not a very good day you know uh because they arrested so many people now when they arrested our wives and my business partner Michael his wife just had a baby it was we had to do a deal here I didn't want to but I was going to say I said to Michael look I know you don't like it but we'll play to it get the girls out of trouble we'll Escape that's a good challenge that way [Music] um but unfortunately um the intelligence section put an arsonist Informer in with the girls to get some information her fire was lit uh burnt down the women's prison and my wife and my business partner's wife was were killed uh that's awful and so the Informer that they put in there yeah why did they pick an arsonist for Daniel writer name was I don't know why I remember that after 40 years God so that's quite a big that was oh and and just uh to make things worse the story put about town to scare the careers into talking because they wouldn't speak was that we'd we were killing off all the witnesses and starting with our own family where does that come from um we ended up in a super max prison nightmarish electronic zoo with two inch glass and electronic doors and insane inmates held 48 death rate 27 people a year died in that little supermax going to court in Chains with a SWAT team taking it it was so so much Michael fell to pieces he was just a wreck he didn't make it uh he survived the jail but died when he got out the only way I could survive all of that was to strip away everything I you know I found myself in the supermax concrete everything's concrete the bed everything there's no everything's still just with the tape player from my lure listening to the the tapes the bug tapes the microphones in my house I could play back my life for the last six months clearly you're moving from room to room taking telephone calls she was crying about something I didn't know what I never know and David that's gone immerse yourself in the worst that they have you will not survive this otherwise trial sort of went not so good acquitted of most things but convicted enough 10 years difficult imprisonment but I the only way I could deal with it was to say did I want revenge that was more my fault I brought this about I got her in there I mean a family of a very kind to me about it considering I wouldn't be but it doesn't matter in Chains and super Mech strip it all away it is nothing everyone is a potential enemy everything it just nothing mattered win the day win the night I mean this is a place we had to fill in a book to get some toilet paper the showers were in front of them in a glass box um if you went on a visit they'd zip you up and lock you in a suit so you had no pockets there was after that and her death I felt like there was nothing that could affect me you're wrong about these things you know we're human but I got out and they were there they even visited me to say we'll be on you when you get out the police yeah we enjoyed the old days didn't you yeah I said pretending you know and just to make the point that they were there when I got out um I I'd done a whole lot of Woodwork in the prison in the last place I was at carving intricate things making these really great trick Chinese boxes with beeswax they intercepted the van that was taking it from the prison back to my house and smashed it all to pieces I put it in a box just to say don't think that we will never be here we can do what we want so I decided to leave the country I was um how old am I by then let's work it out yeah uh I started all this Mischief when I was about 18 got arrested at 22. 23 uh um 16 years 17 years either under surveillance or in bad prisons got out and I'm under surveillance again um so how old so you're number 37 about 37. so that's already you know that's a big chunk of Life there but you've lost quite a lot of it to prison or surveillance well at no point now were you like okay and I wasn't a normal person uh really when I got out because of the experience of prison I'd already stripped most of Myself Away to deal with the death of the Superman yeah and and watching people be burnt to death in the place which was frequent somebody had contact glue pulled all over him and then satellite oh God Gods came in and the other one's standing there with a Tire swinging it around to make sure to let him burn let him burn Jesus Barry's name was testicles swollen like apples but black okay he died two hours later in hospital anyway um that was regular account to deal with that I'd already strip things away so when I got a little apartment when I got out and my mother had arranged things for me when they were there when they'd leave rude messages on my answer machine when they'd be behind me everywhere I thought all right I remember this David it never ends if you want to survive go back to the way you were you know in in the super max Anything Can Happen anytime but I didn't want to live like that um I got a fresh passport and most elaborate means um I could spend a week explaining how that came into existence but I went to Thailand to pick up some money I had three days there it was just before Christmas I left at that time on purpose so that they maybe I thought maybe it's their weak point that they want to have families in their life just at Christmas I've parked my mum's car and and left the keys somewhere for her nobody knew were you not meant to leave the country no no no licenses oh I see we're just going to take a minute here to talk about a sponsor of this show which is manscaped we were sent a package to try out by manscaped but Conor one of our producers is already a fan of the brand I believe yeah absolutely I've been using manscape for a little while now and Ben as you know it's that time of year people start asking you what you want for Christmas and I would say that a great gift for a man especially one that might have everything is the manscape performance package 4.0 so what's in that so you get the lawnmower 4.0 electric trimmer you get some anti-chafe boxer shorts which I can vouch for as well as a couple of other grooming products that smell great fantastic well it sounds like a five-star review from uconnor absolutely so Connor you were talking about the performance package there's loads of other great gift ideas such as the hygiene bundle all available at manscape.com com and all gifts that men will genuinely love to receive this Christmas if you are a listener of this podcast you get 20 off and free shipping all you have to do is go to manscape.com and use the code minutes that's manscape.com m-i-n-u-t-e-s minutes um so why are we doing that the risk is it worth it I didn't want to play anymore right I wanted to uh see if I could have a something resembling like a a real life just to find some corner of the world plan was to to return to London and oh so you were leaving forever I'm leaving forever okay I see nobody knew it um I had a couple of hundred thousand in Thailand I thought um which I returned to pick up um now I suppose people say this Crooks always say this most unusual circumstances led to my arrest well they were but then again they always are aren't they or you wouldn't be telling the story or you wouldn't have been arrested but um the USDA was involved lots of people lots of players uh no real drugs are found uh they did an airport sweep and listed me up for like an ounce of something and a false passport or two the money I had just disappeared into pockets but those when I arrived there I felt so free I knew this identity was good I just like floating on air really I slipped out of my protective mode you know that when we stick to the plan and all right you don't want to leave I should have even stayed there for six months just get some sensible view of the world but I I didn't uh and as I went to the airport I could see they were all around me and I melted back into the crowd and disappeared again I thought well that serves me right for changing that attitude I'd had from back in super max and I just glaze over concentrate on the details which I needed to do because when I went to make a phone call later at the travel agency uh waiting it was so depressing being thrown into the Thai prison and I had some idea what they'd be like um people I'd known had been arrested there I knew this much it never won a case you never get out well you get out and what were they arresting you for was it the the uh the passport um what did the the the money wasn't I mean what did they leave 4 000 or something like that right and there are airports we put um I saw the guy walking in with it in a plastic bag you know whatever people throw on the floor before they go through security there was a bit of hash this usual bits of weed but what they really wanted was um this 25 grams of heroin because that would finish me off a policeman um Australian one said was that yours yeah yeah sure it was he said I didn't think so what would you be carrying around that for I mean if it was 10 kilos I might understand but but that was enough the death penalty and was it yours no no no so where where would that come from if you do they do a sweep every afternoon at five o'clock they get tons of it right I get you know nervous passengers go up and then they change their minds and they throw it in the toilet too and were they just did do you think they believed it was yours or do you think they were just going this is we need to give him this bit no no I think they were using it hoping to that would be good to hold and maybe they could get something else find out what I was up to who I was seeing because I had met um somebody who's whose uncle was a big player right so there was there was I think they were optimistic there might be more Camp come out of it but but there wasn't but what difference did it make and I wasn't really worried about um those drugs or the death penalty I wanted to die anyway frankly my first escape plans from there had this I imagine getting out to find the Privacy to kill myself right I wanted to go to the dusa Tony Hotel I knew Which floor and where to get onto the roof I'd taken photographs from there many years before um they were you simply couldn't get a moment's piece dormitories with 150 guys in them screaming all night um we can't even take a crap in peace in the Thai prison We're Not Afraid though of what killing myself well no I mean I don't know being brutalized by the guards or the inmates so well I knew enough about Thailand to to know that it was a little more comic than than bad there were very bad things happen they used to um they've beaten people a couple of people get beaten to death every day there but it's a very big prison we have to get that in proportion I only wish they wouldn't use the food trolley to take the dead bodies out because um you know they don't clean them up um and could you speak the language or were you quite it was a quite different communication uh not really uh and the few languages that uh pitch up in my travels I always found that even if you know them it's better to pretend you don't okay um because they'll talk about you behind your back you know certainly didn't live it on there was I I just couldn't see any point I'd gone to such elaborate precautions on this trip um it just shouldn't have happened and I even got away from the airport and still it happened oh all that confidence that I'll figure a way out I didn't care anymore I just had enough um and I remember seeing an old guy there if you had to go to court they put change on you and um you'd line up on the ground now this old guy I was looking at him because I don't know why a big soundtrack went past he had the presence of mind to push his head under that sand truck and oh it twisted it around popped like a watermelon being dropped on the ground oh my God guys very annoyed told the trustees to get that thing away out of sight was that nice thing called it I thought you Brave bastard you yeah you've got the guts to do that was it not quite a disturbing thing to witness no it was shocking because if you haven't seen it kind of thing up close and I happen to be looking um it was uh but that that's how I felt about it but I was saved In The End by a con man and people say a lot of bad things about economy they do yes they do and they uh you can't be trusted uh they are rottenness and they will cheat you just because they're the Scorpion that's in their nature uh but sometimes they're just what you need and this rather smooth um Bostonian American um who spoke Thai and really knew his way around and I you know I thought the somewhere in this huge prison there'd be an enclave of rich and corrupt foreigners with loads of money and there'd be luxuries it wasn't there was nobody of any importance in there you know a couple of big sacrifices had been made but um a couple of very rich policemen who were in the hospital in intensive care but other than that it was it was just um the people who reached the absolute bottom Drifters in Asia who did run after run and then got sacrificed to the machine they'd get about four jobs a big Syndicate there operating careers had run four times bang they'd shot them to the police they'd be gone oh God they will turn told the same story and it was Joe it was this guest house it was such and such identical and um and and at this point had you been sentenced to death had you received oh no no no I I was trying to avoid that yeah once I came to my senses because the the Boston con had so many wonderful schemes medical thing to get me bail and know some way of a escape with a go to court I get snatched from there I had villains come over and and scope out the court too because there was a way I thought of getting out of there from the lift that took you up to the the building uh snatched from the middle as you go down changed into a different set of clothes but they all got scared thing about um some of our most loved uh and fearless villains they're pretty good in the local manner but you throw them into a place like that where people carry machine guns and shoot at will just for the hell of it not so confident they like the upper edge of being snakes um so I couldn't convince anybody to really help and it was just as well um and two and a half years passed there in this prison it's a long time it was I sort of perked up a little bit pulled myself together started exercising um got a couple of ATM cards over hadn't my favorite god um he was in charge of the the building bought myself a room renovated um so you had you bought a room within the prison that was just for you rented that's rented right you know and is that an official thing that you're allowed to do right there are places in the world where it's official right but you had an influx of money that you could pay for special treats you could survive there on um less than 500 pounds a month and be king oh wow was this the 70s or the 80s now by the way we're into um 90 495 19 the 495 because what's reported about you is that during the 80s you were a multi-millionaire um is that accurate um now what do we call a multi-millionaires a young halfway with a million and a quarter on a glass coffee table and looks around the living room and thinks I've got to get a sofa one of these days um oh goes to the car auctions in the morning buys a big yank tank with a 427 Chevy engine in it um drives it around makes his own car parking spaces you know we're smashing the front in backing the other one pushing the other cars out of the way um oh stoned off my head most of the time uh if I wasn't stunned enough I'd take a few mandracks just to colludes icing on the cake um so I didn't take care of the money and the money didn't take care of me so I guess I'm like the reason I the reason I asked was because it must have been quite a stark change going from a very rich existence to basically somewhere where you basically couldn't pay for anything initially and it was a very poor existence but I guess from what you're saying there it's not like you felt like you were Rich at the time um I've made that contrast a few times when I had my first big arrest I couldn't as I was in a cold near lightless cell of blue stone and horse hair mattress about two inches thick and wrecking a piss I would think back to the night before when I had my important to tell in huge bed and Irish linen sheets and swimming pool out there and um and we had to kind of shake off the contrast but that rubber banding must must have been hard to take because it's you're going from basically the aspiration of almost everyone where you're talking about just buying cars outright and having a swimming pool to a piss stinking bed you know it must be it was you know it's odd thing about it was providing I could see a way out a work a way out I didn't so much mind oh okay um I really trained myself to expect my whatever world I built up and and this happened several times I've done it five times had a new identity New Life new surroundings even new people and dang they're gone and every time it got worse um and there was even Thailand was desperately important because even though it was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it um you know I was somebody that nobody minded killing um so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah there's nothing like the prospect of being executed by a machine gun which is the way they did it God is that what it would have been wow yeah you know oh they'd have three guards all with a bit of string on the trigger and they'd all pull it once so that none of them could be condemned in the Buddhist sense of sin oh they don't even actually right I see it caused the bullet that finished you off oh I see so you're in the Thai prison you've been sentenced to uh rather unpleasant death penalty um how did you start coming up with this famous plan for escaping um desperation it was the last plan that looked like it was going to work um there were probably about 20 plans considered um everything from being the prison held I've since found out it holds 22 000 people oh my God in 10 sub prisons uh there's a women's section there's a young offenders there's a special reminder a drug unit all of that um just a wild place it has everything it even had a prisoner-run shop where you could extract you could borrow money against your account and cash anyway um one of the plans involved being welded into a VW Combi van in the prisons Auto Workshop which would be picked up early Monday morning and I'd be driven out and that another one was um there were several courtroom ones and you couldn't just pay your way out no no it's just you could pay to have a mobile phone which in those days was a rare thing but they were around um you could pay for a bottle of clong uh whiskey you could pay I'm sure you could pay to get a a girl in your room if you could work out what a room was that a whole section full of ladyboys there and got a building full of them they used to open it up on Saturdays so um you could pay for anything but not to leave they couldn't cover that and they couldn't trust each other you would need 25 30 different guards paid off and and the gods of visitors I mean too many guides no that wouldn't work and they looked at it as a kind of betrayal only if I saw two escapes attempts there one group of uh straight kids and a Singaporean got out of their cell incredibly turned themselves into the sleeping God when they'd all lied to each other about what they didn't have you know the ropes and ways out because they're it was so outraged that they'd spoiled the guys jobs they beat them to death slowly tortured them over three months to death having put them in little code lockers the soy they call them drag them out in elephant chains every day and batter them senseless uh internal bleeding usually did it um look I've got a bowl of rice and a painting to poo in that was it um even the water was it was just too horrible so if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off even my Swedish friends Sten the Viking he backed out at the last minute I couldn't get people to go with me all the other plants had fallen to bits because they depended on other people I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars and I needed equipment for that and here's a really important point I guess as bad as this world is you've got to try to find good people if you ask somebody if you asked your friend yeah and and you're finished you'll manage to get a phone call and say friend it's been here um I need you to get um I don't know four hacksaw blades and cut them into the dowel rods of a of a poster and then paint it all up and send it in a huge package with this that cable ties gaffer tape but disguise all that how many people are going to do it turn around wouldn't believe it Ben called me what his neck yeah he's screwed but anyway he wouldn't believe but he wants me to do this that now people don't do it but Michael on the other hand our business partner wouldn't even let me explain he hadn't heard from me in 18 months he said David don't explain I'm sure we could get cut off tell me the important part now where do I have to be and what do I have to bring no that's a friend um and so I've always tried to do the same for the others that I've known like that um but um I did get the equipment together that I needed and everything um about escapes from a big prison is not like your hope it's going to be you know I turned it out walked around the streets and it had streets inside it um and timed it with my trusty Casio and it was so I knew roughly how long it would take to get me but the night's a different world I'm a prisoner I'm only used to noise during the day even the fan chopping around in the Cell at night it's so quiet everything I did squeaked and rattled and twisted I came across a panel that had to be a nail had to come out and that and they'll protest it and scream their wrench out of the way it took um uh seven or eight worlds uh sorry seven or eight walls to cross over I say worlds because they really were every building was a different thing and I got lost and I went past the terminal AIDS Ward that building hundreds of guys all die and I could smell it before I got there because this necrotic Rotting Flesh and I couldn't resist looking in I'm carrying this huge long ladder made out of bamboo poles and fake picture frames gaffer taped along the center [Music] um and I looked up and I saw all these little faces in the Moonlight wrapped in so much pain and despair they didn't have the energy to cry out to the guards if they'd been in any other prisoners they would have the trustees there were absolute scum of the earth had whistled little uniforms sell the drugs one day and the rest of the guys for it the next all of that um and it was only by um well I only got to the outer wall by Dawn and if somebody had been with me I wouldn't have made it either you wouldn't have no imagine I've taken all night to get there and at each point where this something was unexpected I've had to dream up something and I get a little basic toolkit and I sometimes I'd have to sacrifice part of my ladder to make a hook to pull down barbed wire and the technique for using the thing was awkward you had to prop it walk up drop down the other side so you're twisting over the walls like that manual is entirely barbed wire so I had to go underneath it covered in mud the the last one was really too high and there was a Mars bar Creek the the moat that ran around I did you know if I was with somebody else we'd be arguing wouldn't we oh Spa Creek oh it was full of turds bombing around it was caught out of the sewer yeah you did ask um illustrative okay we're just gonna take a quick break from the show to talk about a sponsor of this episode better help better help is an online Counseling Service which connects people to therapists and counselors I'm joined by one of our producers bryony is counseling something you've had experience with do you know what it's interesting because when I was growing up the same kind of challenges in life would happen but people wouldn't necessarily go to therapy or talk about therapy and I feel like since uh maybe my late teens early 20s people are starting to go to therapy and talking about it and I have definitely used it in my life and it's been massively beneficial same and do you because I think one of the things that people often mistake they think it's just for big things yeah but what's the other experience of that thing I think life always throws you know small challenges and large challenges and sometimes the big things need talking about but actually you know starting a new school or starting a new job can rile up that same level of anxiety and it's just really helpful to be able to talk to someone about it who is completely impartial not involved in your life and just kind of a safe space I guess to just say whatever you want to say you completely agree as the world's largest therapy service better help as much 3 million people with professionally licensed and vetted therapists available 100 online plus it's affordable just fill out a brief questionnaire to match with a therapist if things aren't clicking you can easily switch to a new therapist anytime it couldn't be simpler no waiting rooms no traffic no endless searching for the right therapist learn more and save 10 of your first month at betterhelp.com minutes with that's betterhelp help help.com minutes with um now there was one way of oh Beyond marsburg create this a foot and a half of land before this huge huge wall you've got to get a ladder that's too heavy to carry too imbalanced to do anything with but you've got a bit of rope how do you get it to the other side of Mars bar which has all got tangled barb wire in that so it'll catch get it in place and up against the wall when you've got no ground to to walk on now there is a way and uh I guess people have to listen to me describe it either to you or in my book okay fine but too long to tell here sure but um I could see the glow of dawn as I got to the top which had electricity running through it too just to make it the top of the wall dead yeah yeah wow but um my friend who um was in there a bit of a technician is to belong to the anarchist Society in in Britain how would you belong to a society that has rules when you anyway putting that aside he did tell me that it would only be 240 volts but to be careful um and just managed to get over that and because the original plan was to um oh there was an outer moat beyond that of 20 meters I had my clothes ready to go into a plastic bag swim the moat but just as well I didn't um because all it turned out all the guards houses were over the other side of that moat this would not be a place to go but I cleaned myself up threw some clothes on and I one of the jobs that I didn't do but I was supposed to be doing was working in the Umbrella Factory so I paid a local boy to do it um I've got a pop-up umbrella from there I thought you know you really get a perspective about I want to just simple discrimination but being an outsider a foreigner the way sometimes people feel picked upon you know we were called the white trash and we were in in Chains and everything so I knew I had to cover my face in the popular did it and I managed to get to a place where a passport was hidden and to the airport and still had a working ATM card to get me out of the country into Singapore so did you end up with the umbrella did you walk out the front gate yeah I did I had some long trousers on now in their prisoners are not allowed to wear them so I had some khaki pants I thought they might as I walked around the the narrow path to the front gate it's still mote but a little Bridge I thought another figure it's a guard arriving late and sneaking in and I did I felt like Ripley an alien uh looking at thinking lucky lucky this is where it all ends doesn't it and I'm thinking that every moment and looking up and there was just enough light rain to justify the umbrella yeah I would learn later that was actually the not a rain from the gods but the spittle of their laughter because they had worse things in mind for me later on I mean it's so it's you know how many people are you aware how many people had escaped from that prison up to that point was it some every year or was it very infrequent none um the ties sometimes ran away when they were doing the gardens in Chains outside but Escape From Within um I'd known of in 20 years people could recall two attempts no foreigners um and they didn't trust the foreigners that's why they put you on the third floor right quite rightly yes and and how long had it taken you from like the beginning of the uh I started cutting at um 11 45 I paid a lot to get a light switch in there normally the lights are on all the time um okay and I said to my favorite guard oh yeah Ponting or whatever his name was I can't sleep with that thing I'll put a light switch in um um now they didn't say it as corruption or bribe taking they thought I'm doing this nice guy a favor and I'll be lucky because of it that's a very big thing over there you know if I get caught I'm unlucky then so they can batter me to death I mean sure it's kind of self-justifies any action that a human being might take so he started cutting around eight for 11 45 11 45 okay it's quite close through one bar by two in the morning oh God stencia listen we'll go on the next note I looked around and Kevin the American from Hawaii I didn't even know this was happening uh Mirage the Indian I know he's going to talk the next morning he was kakaria LA pantaloni right in the cell never mind holding out and not saying anything he would have it would have been finished I never would have made it and I guess I could have seen the missing bars potentially but I learned later on I actually caught up with somebody who was in there Scottish guy um he was there for selling ecstasy to the Two well-off Sons and Daughters of wealthy policemen anyway um he remembers they the guards couldn't figure that I'd left oh um he said David they ran around the the prison calling out your name it was Daniel Westlake while I was there Daniel Daniel they okay that somebody drew their attention to the cut bar in there yeah my Scottish friend said they the gods wanted they thought that okay he's got out he's angry about something uh Daniel but he's not actually he'll never get out he couldn't get it they never found the the ladder down the front wall until much much later so for um uh uh only one of them said oh we better check the airport they sent a couple of guys down there um just a little bit late and you were gone by then only just and remember man you've got a passport from a Chinese connection that you barely know but kind of like the cut of his jib but are you gonna put your life on the line on that and at every moment you're handing it over you know like the look of it yeah they don't like the look of it they're typing it up and you're thinking they got onto the computer have they done that bit uh have they entered my arrival was this I knew it was freshly stolen or sold off was only a few weeks old uh I mean not new was had only gone missing a few weeks earlier so it was still good but very nerve-wracking and I didn't have a photo I had to use my old um uh radio operators license that had a photograph in it to get reproduced into this thing so it was a bit grainy um and even on the plane it was delay and takeoff oh God and a mumbling Captain oh sorry um we we have a thing with one passenger I just asked what thing exactly soon enough thwomp doors to manual oh but I've got an hour you know looking at this passport I don't like it get to Singapore but I make it through so you got to Singapore yeah but you did end up going back to prison not a Thai prison but a different prison he's suggesting uh I did something wrong well I'm hoping you're going to tell me um no well okay uh I didn't stay in Singapore long because um I sat there in the hotel room unable to digest food not prepared by my own cook sure I in the hotel room in Singapore I realized you could work out who had left that day if they'd flown my air by simply going to the airport and children you work it out yourselves at home you check everybody who's left separate the foreigners hmm go a step further let's keep the Canadian and American the British the Australian New Zealand all the English-speaking passport Society um just to you know reduce the numbers take those names check with the embassies any of these names belong to lost or stolen passports that have been reported yeah five of them because that's Bangkok you know not the only Mischief maker there but nonetheless um they probably knew I could be who was I Charles McClintock hmm sorry Charles I had to borrow your passport but it was an essential cause but you're not wanted anymore of course are you no but I did get an unwelcome knock at the door some years ago uh by the police who um would it be to go excuse me Westminster Court known for the terrorist cases extradition or parking fights wow I'd lift the car anywhere lately so it was going to be one of the other two and it was extradition to Thailand I fought that case for two years and um it was difficult um but managed to effectively win in the end so the ties have dropped that one and I can't be taken back there I'm not wanted anywhere um I can nobody can do what they want but um I I'm not I haven't got anything pending I'm not in business I'm a bit cautious I even got sent something in the the mail a few years ago and I thought it was some gift from some halfway ambitious wombat in in Pakistan sending me a bit of dope thinking oh yeah there's a gift you might like that connection made no I mean people had my address all around the world ever since Danny Dyer um it turned out to be more complicated than that but um very dangerous for me to walk into a courtroom so I don't even imagine you're me and knock at the door oh here's something for you Ben you don't like the look of it you refuse it you're in court no matter why did you refuse that was it your name no you was up The Jig was up proof ladies and gentlemen oh you accept it ah you accepted it proof ladies and gentlemen wife saying to me Jeanette and whom I met in Pakistan years ago and she was there to fish out her husband on a two-ton hash deal he didn't make it anyway um she said throw the thing away I'm thinking in court again ladies and gentlemen he threw the stuff away I can't win so very cautious about all that kind of stuff um fair enough but I take it you won't be going for a holiday to Thailand anytime soon I didn't think so okay so how many do you know off the top of your head of your life how many years of your life have you spent in prison ultimately I did add it up once I'm 66 now and I suppose I've spent um but 22 years the thing that occurs to me and I met you before and I thought the same thing is like you obviously extremely intelligent extremely resourceful it can't be well but well anyway but do you regret the choices you made in terms of do you see those 22 years in prison as something you had no control over it's just the way the dice rolled or do you see them as a mistake on your part um worse than a mistake mistake suggest you didn't know uh where you were going wrong I was taking those steps into uh of a precipice that I'd defied there is no gravity I said I said I will work out something before I hit the ground um when I was It was kind of in stages when I was young it was just arrogance and and showing off and later on when everything was destroyed it was kind of I'd scraped away all of my life and would just go on um then in the third stage it was escaping away from places rebuilding up and being weakened every time it was taken away again um and do I regret it yeah I'm sure I um no you know some people say oh yeah but David just smuggled everything on Earth you scumbag you you know um think of the lives you've destroyed and the people you've heard ah and I go to start to explain that it's not quite black and white uh I mean I've had drug habits myself that I've carelessly allowed um but I thought what's the point anything I say we just sound like self-justification so well don't listen to me then you know but things that have happened that have taught me a lot it's interesting you say that because one of a lot of the comments on our well on the first video we did a lot of the comments where people saying someone needs to make a movie about this guy but a lot of the other comments were people saying he's so charismatic and likable but he must be a really dangerous person to have been involved with all these worlds for so long and um we've interviewed a couple of drug smugglers and I would say they're the ones that I've met have been the ones that probably are more someone you'd see is traditionally quite an obviously dangerous person you come across as very Charming charismatic roguish where do you see yourself on that scale do you see yourself as someone who was dangerous or do you see yourself as someone who's just moved from area to area as it occurred um kind of like this a dangerous I suppose what most people see that and you know if somebody was a problem for me would I find the best option to have them killed or not but really there always was a kind of Vestige of that's a failure if you can't think of anything better than to have them killed then then then what are you doing there's a million clever ways of solving your problems and that besides which there's always going to be people you can't kill everybody um not only that who killed the killers that you've got to do the killing you know you know they always say that about the quiet ones and all of that but it was the people who bothered to put up a smoke screen um they're establishing a um later Alibi a courtroom personality but I met him he didn't seem bothered by all of that why would he have him killed and those are the ones that um seem to be more dangerous and if I was such a dangerous person like that I certainly been absolute fool to break from that mold and say otherwise wouldn't it very true David it's great to see you again thank you so much for coming in always a pleasure yeah and I've Got a Feeling we'll be seeing you again at some point as well it's possible it does may cross thank you I'll be like oh my God they're in my head they they know they know that was a song and so they put that song on the radio and it's all everything revolves around me or you know and this happened well sometimes happens today you know I'm I'm thinking of someone in my head someone under there like on the street	ambitious wombat in in Pakistan sending me a bit of dope thinking oh yeah there's a gift you might like that connection made no I mean people had my address all around the world ever since Danny Dyer um it turned out to be more complicated than that but um very dangerous for me to walk into a courtroom so I don't even imagine you're me and knock at the door oh here's something for you Ben you don't like the look of it you refuse it you're in court no matter why did you refuse that was it your name no you was up The Jig was up proof ladies and gentlemen oh you accept it ah you accepted it proof ladies and gentlemen wife saying to me Jeanette and whom I met in Pakistan years ago and she was there to fish out her husband on a two-ton hash deal he didn't make it anyway um she said throw the thing away I'm thinking in court again ladies and gentlemen he threw the stuff away I can't win so very cautious about all that kind of stuff um fair enough but I take it you won't be going for a holiday to Thailand anytime soon I didn't think so okay so how many do you know off the top of your head of your life how many years of your life have you spent in prison ultimately I did add it up once I'm 66 now and I	-2	6	-5	I'm thinking in court again ladies and gentlemen he threw the stuff away I can't win	fair enough but I take it you won't be going for a holiday to Thailand anytime soon	0,-5,2	2,1,5	0	-5	2	2	1	5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyZyHHexx7s	4,101	oyZyHHexx7s	2022-12-07 00:00:00	even though I was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off I couldn't get people to go with me I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars [Music] it's great to have you back David obviously we've met before but for anyone who doesn't know who you are for new listeners or new viewers could you give us a brief introduction to what you are famous for well I suppose uh most well known for uh having escaped to prison in Thailand in Bangkok uh the biggest one they have there clong Prim it uh wasn't something I did frivolously I was going to be executed within a couple of weeks so it seemed like a good time to leave okay now um we're going to get into that in a bit more detail but one thing that I remember about you from last time is you're the most incredible talker and we took away the inter the initial interview we've done with you and ended up having to make it into two long episodes because you have a lot of different very colorful uh experiences so do forgive me if I Jimmy us through oh no I can understand that I mean the only place I never talk is in the police station I always like some of my uh work colleagues took um what was it one slap to get them talking but five to shut them up oh okay so let's go right back to the beginning um you were born in the UK and then I believe you emigrated to Australia well um it was all a family thing yes I was born in basewater in London I spent the first few years of my life then uh there but my parents broke up divorced and I went with my mother to Australia with my older sister so I don't have any really very early memories of London apart from some old eight millimeter movie footage of me learning to walk in Hyde Park my dad was waving a five pound note in front of my face and I was making every effort to grab it I continued that behavior for many many years afterwards returned to Australia um finished some schooling um got really contrasting jobs I worked in an adult Agency for a while um but also before that I was got a job in a cinema now it was the and under literally an underground place but it was there that I got introduced to a bunch of crooks um some of the girls there had boyfriends that I used to run down with um strange boxes or bits of money or fur coats and then wink at me bolt out the back door pursued by often policemen undercover ones of course whom we'd misdirect somewhere but that Circle they were um safe crackers and they really didn't trust Outsiders and didn't much like the sound of me but because of I demonstrated a couple of things by being look everybody was really very anti-authority then I I don't mean hostile but for people now they they wouldn't have experienced that in the uh late 60s 70s we were so snotty and arrogant we really thought we were going to change the world and that um the laws were all nothing and the way to change them was to break them well that was the kind of vanity we had so um when I got to know the safe crackers uh better there was something really interesting I mean I didn't like the idea you know stealing things seemed a bit tacky but on the other hand they kind of all needed the money from the from their backgrounds and everything but that wasn't so much the the interest it was the technicalities of getting into these things okay um they used to drill through the top um having anchored it with the drill with clamps and and put a kind of little lens inside a cystoscope used in medicine and watch the the wheels turning around this is the old kind of old-fashioned Hollywood style it was yeah and um behind the safe were three discs and you had to line them up and they'd once they got in they'd take the door with them so that the opposition the safe makers wouldn't know how they'd got in and it was a a constant battle between the manufacturers and them because they've come across new safes which had Special Metals in it that was mixed like a a crunchy nut bar very hard metals very soft ones so the drill bit would slip on them snap and you got a sense that this was almost like a game where um they would try something then try to beat them and they were very loyal to each other um they they never spoke out of school as it were um when I got involved with them I'd only have to if I had trouble I don't have to make one phone call and people would appear out of nowhere and I thought yeah this this is kind of better than the treacherous boys school that I I grew up in and how old were you at this point um 19 years old 19. so were you thinking you were making a conscious decision to move into illegal activities or at that point in time and at that point in the world did it feel like more of a kind of a bit of roguish fun would you say I was drawn to it anyway because it was interesting and um I didn't really have a lot of fear I think sometimes what we do or don't do is depending on how scary it seems yeah agreed um I was born with a low resting heart rate as they say you know if it's below 70 you're a risk taker I don't know why that is when the safe crackers retired they put some of their money into growing little crops of weed and so on but profit margin is is only through importing because like the price difference is cheap in the source countries expensive where it sells so because they couldn't do it they were almost throwing it down like a challenge like we don't know anybody who can do this and I thought well I traveled a lot um I didn't think it was going to be impossible um I thought the odds were in my phone and I looked it up I went to the library and sort of researched it a bit and where were you thinking which country Well they um they were very keen to get some um hashish from India or Nepal or somewhere okay I could see um it's bulky and there's packing problems so um they funded me and off I sailed now the operation my first operation was so deplorably bad I'm barely 20 years old I my cunning plan which involved a big piece of exported Machinery which had weights in it so the weights would come out the cash would go in it would weigh the same being returned and it was a piece of Television equipment or something that went South immediately when I didn't realize that I would have to pay a huge deposit in duty to even bring it in as a demo machine so forget that I ended up in short meeting a guy in a money exchange section of a bank I was there because I ran out and I had to send asking for more from the boys and I met him and he wasn't involved in any of this but he soon became that just he managed to get me six kilos of hash I took the 1952 ancient Grundig radio from his parents house the Shelf there guttered the thing like a fish wrapped it up and he had to get cling film in those days think of this before you travel arriving with a suitcase full of cling film doesn't look good I suppose but uh wedged it in there and then just flew back to Sydney now you can imagine what happened well just before we get on to what happened you know one thing that strikes me is what year was would this have been this was uh 77 77 so it's amazing think that back then if someone was going to India for the first time now they could go on Google Maps they could research it or they could find out who they could find phone numbers contacts they could be put in contact with people before they've even set off whereas you must have at that age at that time been going in slightly blind you know touching down in a foreign country that you didn't know well no contacts was that not quite daunting well what was more um troubling with um how everything would fail and then I'd have to um you know come up with another plan what context somebody I knew um um there were no bank robber who joined the hare krishnas and fled to India right and I had his name and and the ashram in Delhi where where he was was supposed to have been uh I didn't really catch up with him on that trip but okay sure so so then you get back to Australia with your radio that is now full to the brim with and I get stopped you you did get stopped okay I could stop because uh I'm I'm on a British passport um and it's the only trip I've ever done and I'm that age I'd stop me oh fatherly type was at the Customs desk now the the systems were different in those days um it was Sydney too which is very and certainly was very relaxed back then right he opened the suitcase uh there was nothing in there except a pair of socks there's a towel wrapping up this massive radio which he lifted up so it was buckled at the sides little red packets poking out oh it smelled like a hedgehog for a patchouliers okay not much of a disguise um he let me go he uh put it back looked around to make sure that none of his workmates were watching him being so soft um and then turned to me and said you're going back there you're going to do this again [Music] all right you can take your we'll call it a radio shall we get out of here what he thought I realized later was that he didn't want the whole grammar of the day arresting me filling out papers and it would have been a a long time plus I guess being a dad he thought if I he's obviously an idiot you're right if I send him into Gladiator Academy or it wasn't really like that in those days but certainly contact center um the prison what am I doing um well I guess uh he was hopeful you know I whilst out of there must have smuggling me but I experienced then what um I got years later which was kind of a real Downer after you know having got nowhere with The Hare krishnas and and cultivated the shoeshine boys and had my money stolen at Amex uh by some Scallywags in Delhi all sorts of Little Adventures over there in India and nonetheless made it it's kind of like that's all there is to it I I didn't really want to give it to anyone um sort of felt like you didn't have a big moment of no a bit of money that came earlier that's handy right uh I paid back what I owed and settled up for for the next thing so but once that was started when you sorry I interrupted you go oh I was just going to say it to finish it even though they'd funded me the guys were very surprised to see me back but at all at all oh you made it oh because some of them say oh you'll just run away with it uh even if that's what he's doing who knows what he's doing you know and then I could see sitting around you can imagine there's like a table full of well like three guys and then a kind of Darkness shrouded over that room I thought uh it's not valuable enough to kill me you know what what is this mood why did you bring that well that's what you've been talking about yeah you could have loaded that with cane or smack or something you guys we say nothing but terrible things about a class or heavy drugs that don't want to know about it right and I could read then that wait a minute there we're all might be guys together and having fun getting into the safe and whatnot but there was a kind of different it was something a very strong lesson I'd have to be thoughtful about that um there could be times where things didn't work out not necessarily that my safety was at risk I didn't see it that way but I knew that there were Ruthless People right okay yeah so you got an insight into a mindset that had been a bit below the surface it was there I just chose not to see it but um I then went on to you know refine everything and Vary everything and then did you after that first time did you were you still working sort of for them or did you immediately well when you wake up on your own when things um I picked up and there was enough money around out of uh out of strategy rather than just being a nice guy I gave my partners a kind of thank you bonus from the next thing that I did but I did that all myself right so it was almost like a yeah separation and I wanted to go back to the my hippie friends anyway they were a little less it wasn't that they were scary but but that didn't last because they were maybe friends might be all right but they will certainly careless and stupid but from from that point onwards after that initial Journey was that you then into the world of smuggling I thought this won't last forever you only need one setback and that changes it I probably made quite a lot of money and I could have got out but and I should have gotta you know I have couriers a leak from one of the the couriers brought the police to me and here was the problem with it it was at first I scattered now I was married to my first wife then clearly Italian girl her dad had restaurants I grabbed her I had a secret drawer with extra passports in it some money ended up four plane Journeys later in um off the Bahamas had the skipper of a day rent yacht and take me out to an island and nobody had ever been on before it was empty sat there on a towel I thought hmm the level of surveillance I had means it's quite a big operation they're funded and I checked with a lawyer before the bigger the money they spent the more determined they'll be stay away or go back I mean I don't know why would anybody do this uh well I wasn't broke um I didn't have to there was no pressure on me the more I went through the problems the more attractive the whole thing is uh she didn't like it much well again do you think because it was a puzzle to be solved because um arrogance really we've gone from basically someone who was kind of mildly interested in making a group of people meeting a group of um safe hackers to someone who pulled off their first thing and then we've jumped to someone who has people working for them and and now is no longer taking the risk themselves now the police are on to you and you're on this desert island well small island and you're thinking about going back into it was this like a turning point in your life in terms of going you know because the other option I suppose was to go straight but were you just more it was that just not an option for you I'd gone to my lawyer Ralph he said look this is what I picked up because I my travel agent had tipped me to a couple of detectives that come in he traveled again while I was in on the phone okay uh actually they're all innocent really yeah you know and and gave him a long list of names um they wanted travel details for and a telephone number which I traced uh to um a private office building which had been rented by state and federal police they were so distrusting of their own they didn't want to even run this thing from um regular police headquarters my lawyer said well what you sure it's you said Ralph look at the list of names there's 30 there I'm 26 of them passports are a lot easier to get back then than there now so you had 26 aliases that you were traveling on yeah right okay um and I described where they were he said David they are funded well they're not bear this in mind but although I what they won't get me with anything they're funded you think they're going to walk away after a year and say oh sorry boss you spend a million dollars and uh nothing doing they don't work like that but this is how stubborn I was I thought because he said the only thing you can do is disappear for at least a couple of years and then you can come back if that's what you want and of course I had justifications for it I thought okay I'll I'll build up a bit more money and then I'll disappear but um it was only after things went terribly badly that I realized I shouldn't play like this anymore what it was they um because the challenge just kept coming so now so did you go back to Australia I went back to Australia and and when I retired within three months right but they weren't waiting for you to arrest you or no no they wanted they wanted something solid okay [Music] um I won't go into the long machinations of it all but um somebody we knew uh was getting things from a Thai Courier and he got arrested he sold us out to the police so that that The Courier would now come to us and I always have some solid evidence right he would bring things but we got away with that because that was another challenge but the police got tired of all this arrested me no drugs of course so it was a difficult case the worst kind of case is that where there's no solid evidence and in a way it's better to go to court where you've got a Smoking Gun and a dead body on the ground because at least you know where you are but where there's nothing tangible and it's conspiracies and this was a huge trial six months long what is that 119 Witnesses 6 000 pages of uh telephone intercept massive thing won't made it worse too and I think this was um would change things for me um the pressure was put on for confessions but it'd be silly to confess and you can't confess on somebody else's behalf can you that's not nice um lots of the family were arrested even my mother was taken and it went oh wow just to put pressure on uh did she know what you did oh she had an idea right okay I mean I used to have bin liners full of money I'd leave behind the fridge yeah you don't get that in the cinema do you not done not a very good day you know uh because they arrested so many people now when they arrested our wives and my business partner Michael his wife just had a baby it was we had to do a deal here I didn't want to but I was going to say I said to Michael look I know you don't like it but we'll play to it get the girls out of trouble we'll Escape that's a good challenge that way [Music] um but unfortunately um the intelligence section put an arsonist Informer in with the girls to get some information her fire was lit uh burnt down the women's prison and my wife and my business partner's wife was were killed uh that's awful and so the Informer that they put in there yeah why did they pick an arsonist for Daniel writer name was I don't know why I remember that after 40 years God so that's quite a big that was oh and and just uh to make things worse the story put about town to scare the careers into talking because they wouldn't speak was that we'd we were killing off all the witnesses and starting with our own family where does that come from um we ended up in a super max prison nightmarish electronic zoo with two inch glass and electronic doors and insane inmates held 48 death rate 27 people a year died in that little supermax going to court in Chains with a SWAT team taking it it was so so much Michael fell to pieces he was just a wreck he didn't make it uh he survived the jail but died when he got out the only way I could survive all of that was to strip away everything I you know I found myself in the supermax concrete everything's concrete the bed everything there's no everything's still just with the tape player from my lure listening to the the tapes the bug tapes the microphones in my house I could play back my life for the last six months clearly you're moving from room to room taking telephone calls she was crying about something I didn't know what I never know and David that's gone immerse yourself in the worst that they have you will not survive this otherwise trial sort of went not so good acquitted of most things but convicted enough 10 years difficult imprisonment but I the only way I could deal with it was to say did I want revenge that was more my fault I brought this about I got her in there I mean a family of a very kind to me about it considering I wouldn't be but it doesn't matter in Chains and super Mech strip it all away it is nothing everyone is a potential enemy everything it just nothing mattered win the day win the night I mean this is a place we had to fill in a book to get some toilet paper the showers were in front of them in a glass box um if you went on a visit they'd zip you up and lock you in a suit so you had no pockets there was after that and her death I felt like there was nothing that could affect me you're wrong about these things you know we're human but I got out and they were there they even visited me to say we'll be on you when you get out the police yeah we enjoyed the old days didn't you yeah I said pretending you know and just to make the point that they were there when I got out um I I'd done a whole lot of Woodwork in the prison in the last place I was at carving intricate things making these really great trick Chinese boxes with beeswax they intercepted the van that was taking it from the prison back to my house and smashed it all to pieces I put it in a box just to say don't think that we will never be here we can do what we want so I decided to leave the country I was um how old am I by then let's work it out yeah uh I started all this Mischief when I was about 18 got arrested at 22. 23 uh um 16 years 17 years either under surveillance or in bad prisons got out and I'm under surveillance again um so how old so you're number 37 about 37. so that's already you know that's a big chunk of Life there but you've lost quite a lot of it to prison or surveillance well at no point now were you like okay and I wasn't a normal person uh really when I got out because of the experience of prison I'd already stripped most of Myself Away to deal with the death of the Superman yeah and and watching people be burnt to death in the place which was frequent somebody had contact glue pulled all over him and then satellite oh God Gods came in and the other one's standing there with a Tire swinging it around to make sure to let him burn let him burn Jesus Barry's name was testicles swollen like apples but black okay he died two hours later in hospital anyway um that was regular account to deal with that I'd already strip things away so when I got a little apartment when I got out and my mother had arranged things for me when they were there when they'd leave rude messages on my answer machine when they'd be behind me everywhere I thought all right I remember this David it never ends if you want to survive go back to the way you were you know in in the super max Anything Can Happen anytime but I didn't want to live like that um I got a fresh passport and most elaborate means um I could spend a week explaining how that came into existence but I went to Thailand to pick up some money I had three days there it was just before Christmas I left at that time on purpose so that they maybe I thought maybe it's their weak point that they want to have families in their life just at Christmas I've parked my mum's car and and left the keys somewhere for her nobody knew were you not meant to leave the country no no no licenses oh I see we're just going to take a minute here to talk about a sponsor of this show which is manscaped we were sent a package to try out by manscaped but Conor one of our producers is already a fan of the brand I believe yeah absolutely I've been using manscape for a little while now and Ben as you know it's that time of year people start asking you what you want for Christmas and I would say that a great gift for a man especially one that might have everything is the manscape performance package 4.0 so what's in that so you get the lawnmower 4.0 electric trimmer you get some anti-chafe boxer shorts which I can vouch for as well as a couple of other grooming products that smell great fantastic well it sounds like a five-star review from uconnor absolutely so Connor you were talking about the performance package there's loads of other great gift ideas such as the hygiene bundle all available at manscape.com com and all gifts that men will genuinely love to receive this Christmas if you are a listener of this podcast you get 20 off and free shipping all you have to do is go to manscape.com and use the code minutes that's manscape.com m-i-n-u-t-e-s minutes um so why are we doing that the risk is it worth it I didn't want to play anymore right I wanted to uh see if I could have a something resembling like a a real life just to find some corner of the world plan was to to return to London and oh so you were leaving forever I'm leaving forever okay I see nobody knew it um I had a couple of hundred thousand in Thailand I thought um which I returned to pick up um now I suppose people say this Crooks always say this most unusual circumstances led to my arrest well they were but then again they always are aren't they or you wouldn't be telling the story or you wouldn't have been arrested but um the USDA was involved lots of people lots of players uh no real drugs are found uh they did an airport sweep and listed me up for like an ounce of something and a false passport or two the money I had just disappeared into pockets but those when I arrived there I felt so free I knew this identity was good I just like floating on air really I slipped out of my protective mode you know that when we stick to the plan and all right you don't want to leave I should have even stayed there for six months just get some sensible view of the world but I I didn't uh and as I went to the airport I could see they were all around me and I melted back into the crowd and disappeared again I thought well that serves me right for changing that attitude I'd had from back in super max and I just glaze over concentrate on the details which I needed to do because when I went to make a phone call later at the travel agency uh waiting it was so depressing being thrown into the Thai prison and I had some idea what they'd be like um people I'd known had been arrested there I knew this much it never won a case you never get out well you get out and what were they arresting you for was it the the uh the passport um what did the the the money wasn't I mean what did they leave 4 000 or something like that right and there are airports we put um I saw the guy walking in with it in a plastic bag you know whatever people throw on the floor before they go through security there was a bit of hash this usual bits of weed but what they really wanted was um this 25 grams of heroin because that would finish me off a policeman um Australian one said was that yours yeah yeah sure it was he said I didn't think so what would you be carrying around that for I mean if it was 10 kilos I might understand but but that was enough the death penalty and was it yours no no no so where where would that come from if you do they do a sweep every afternoon at five o'clock they get tons of it right I get you know nervous passengers go up and then they change their minds and they throw it in the toilet too and were they just did do you think they believed it was yours or do you think they were just going this is we need to give him this bit no no I think they were using it hoping to that would be good to hold and maybe they could get something else find out what I was up to who I was seeing because I had met um somebody who's whose uncle was a big player right so there was there was I think they were optimistic there might be more Camp come out of it but but there wasn't but what difference did it make and I wasn't really worried about um those drugs or the death penalty I wanted to die anyway frankly my first escape plans from there had this I imagine getting out to find the Privacy to kill myself right I wanted to go to the dusa Tony Hotel I knew Which floor and where to get onto the roof I'd taken photographs from there many years before um they were you simply couldn't get a moment's piece dormitories with 150 guys in them screaming all night um we can't even take a crap in peace in the Thai prison We're Not Afraid though of what killing myself well no I mean I don't know being brutalized by the guards or the inmates so well I knew enough about Thailand to to know that it was a little more comic than than bad there were very bad things happen they used to um they've beaten people a couple of people get beaten to death every day there but it's a very big prison we have to get that in proportion I only wish they wouldn't use the food trolley to take the dead bodies out because um you know they don't clean them up um and could you speak the language or were you quite it was a quite different communication uh not really uh and the few languages that uh pitch up in my travels I always found that even if you know them it's better to pretend you don't okay um because they'll talk about you behind your back you know certainly didn't live it on there was I I just couldn't see any point I'd gone to such elaborate precautions on this trip um it just shouldn't have happened and I even got away from the airport and still it happened oh all that confidence that I'll figure a way out I didn't care anymore I just had enough um and I remember seeing an old guy there if you had to go to court they put change on you and um you'd line up on the ground now this old guy I was looking at him because I don't know why a big soundtrack went past he had the presence of mind to push his head under that sand truck and oh it twisted it around popped like a watermelon being dropped on the ground oh my God guys very annoyed told the trustees to get that thing away out of sight was that nice thing called it I thought you Brave bastard you yeah you've got the guts to do that was it not quite a disturbing thing to witness no it was shocking because if you haven't seen it kind of thing up close and I happen to be looking um it was uh but that that's how I felt about it but I was saved In The End by a con man and people say a lot of bad things about economy they do yes they do and they uh you can't be trusted uh they are rottenness and they will cheat you just because they're the Scorpion that's in their nature uh but sometimes they're just what you need and this rather smooth um Bostonian American um who spoke Thai and really knew his way around and I you know I thought the somewhere in this huge prison there'd be an enclave of rich and corrupt foreigners with loads of money and there'd be luxuries it wasn't there was nobody of any importance in there you know a couple of big sacrifices had been made but um a couple of very rich policemen who were in the hospital in intensive care but other than that it was it was just um the people who reached the absolute bottom Drifters in Asia who did run after run and then got sacrificed to the machine they'd get about four jobs a big Syndicate there operating careers had run four times bang they'd shot them to the police they'd be gone oh God they will turn told the same story and it was Joe it was this guest house it was such and such identical and um and and at this point had you been sentenced to death had you received oh no no no I I was trying to avoid that yeah once I came to my senses because the the Boston con had so many wonderful schemes medical thing to get me bail and know some way of a escape with a go to court I get snatched from there I had villains come over and and scope out the court too because there was a way I thought of getting out of there from the lift that took you up to the the building uh snatched from the middle as you go down changed into a different set of clothes but they all got scared thing about um some of our most loved uh and fearless villains they're pretty good in the local manner but you throw them into a place like that where people carry machine guns and shoot at will just for the hell of it not so confident they like the upper edge of being snakes um so I couldn't convince anybody to really help and it was just as well um and two and a half years passed there in this prison it's a long time it was I sort of perked up a little bit pulled myself together started exercising um got a couple of ATM cards over hadn't my favorite god um he was in charge of the the building bought myself a room renovated um so you had you bought a room within the prison that was just for you rented that's rented right you know and is that an official thing that you're allowed to do right there are places in the world where it's official right but you had an influx of money that you could pay for special treats you could survive there on um less than 500 pounds a month and be king oh wow was this the 70s or the 80s now by the way we're into um 90 495 19 the 495 because what's reported about you is that during the 80s you were a multi-millionaire um is that accurate um now what do we call a multi-millionaires a young halfway with a million and a quarter on a glass coffee table and looks around the living room and thinks I've got to get a sofa one of these days um oh goes to the car auctions in the morning buys a big yank tank with a 427 Chevy engine in it um drives it around makes his own car parking spaces you know we're smashing the front in backing the other one pushing the other cars out of the way um oh stoned off my head most of the time uh if I wasn't stunned enough I'd take a few mandracks just to colludes icing on the cake um so I didn't take care of the money and the money didn't take care of me so I guess I'm like the reason I the reason I asked was because it must have been quite a stark change going from a very rich existence to basically somewhere where you basically couldn't pay for anything initially and it was a very poor existence but I guess from what you're saying there it's not like you felt like you were Rich at the time um I've made that contrast a few times when I had my first big arrest I couldn't as I was in a cold near lightless cell of blue stone and horse hair mattress about two inches thick and wrecking a piss I would think back to the night before when I had my important to tell in huge bed and Irish linen sheets and swimming pool out there and um and we had to kind of shake off the contrast but that rubber banding must must have been hard to take because it's you're going from basically the aspiration of almost everyone where you're talking about just buying cars outright and having a swimming pool to a piss stinking bed you know it must be it was you know it's odd thing about it was providing I could see a way out a work a way out I didn't so much mind oh okay um I really trained myself to expect my whatever world I built up and and this happened several times I've done it five times had a new identity New Life new surroundings even new people and dang they're gone and every time it got worse um and there was even Thailand was desperately important because even though it was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it um you know I was somebody that nobody minded killing um so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah there's nothing like the prospect of being executed by a machine gun which is the way they did it God is that what it would have been wow yeah you know oh they'd have three guards all with a bit of string on the trigger and they'd all pull it once so that none of them could be condemned in the Buddhist sense of sin oh they don't even actually right I see it caused the bullet that finished you off oh I see so you're in the Thai prison you've been sentenced to uh rather unpleasant death penalty um how did you start coming up with this famous plan for escaping um desperation it was the last plan that looked like it was going to work um there were probably about 20 plans considered um everything from being the prison held I've since found out it holds 22 000 people oh my God in 10 sub prisons uh there's a women's section there's a young offenders there's a special reminder a drug unit all of that um just a wild place it has everything it even had a prisoner-run shop where you could extract you could borrow money against your account and cash anyway um one of the plans involved being welded into a VW Combi van in the prisons Auto Workshop which would be picked up early Monday morning and I'd be driven out and that another one was um there were several courtroom ones and you couldn't just pay your way out no no it's just you could pay to have a mobile phone which in those days was a rare thing but they were around um you could pay for a bottle of clong uh whiskey you could pay I'm sure you could pay to get a a girl in your room if you could work out what a room was that a whole section full of ladyboys there and got a building full of them they used to open it up on Saturdays so um you could pay for anything but not to leave they couldn't cover that and they couldn't trust each other you would need 25 30 different guards paid off and and the gods of visitors I mean too many guides no that wouldn't work and they looked at it as a kind of betrayal only if I saw two escapes attempts there one group of uh straight kids and a Singaporean got out of their cell incredibly turned themselves into the sleeping God when they'd all lied to each other about what they didn't have you know the ropes and ways out because they're it was so outraged that they'd spoiled the guys jobs they beat them to death slowly tortured them over three months to death having put them in little code lockers the soy they call them drag them out in elephant chains every day and batter them senseless uh internal bleeding usually did it um look I've got a bowl of rice and a painting to poo in that was it um even the water was it was just too horrible so if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off even my Swedish friends Sten the Viking he backed out at the last minute I couldn't get people to go with me all the other plants had fallen to bits because they depended on other people I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars and I needed equipment for that and here's a really important point I guess as bad as this world is you've got to try to find good people if you ask somebody if you asked your friend yeah and and you're finished you'll manage to get a phone call and say friend it's been here um I need you to get um I don't know four hacksaw blades and cut them into the dowel rods of a of a poster and then paint it all up and send it in a huge package with this that cable ties gaffer tape but disguise all that how many people are going to do it turn around wouldn't believe it Ben called me what his neck yeah he's screwed but anyway he wouldn't believe but he wants me to do this that now people don't do it but Michael on the other hand our business partner wouldn't even let me explain he hadn't heard from me in 18 months he said David don't explain I'm sure we could get cut off tell me the important part now where do I have to be and what do I have to bring no that's a friend um and so I've always tried to do the same for the others that I've known like that um but um I did get the equipment together that I needed and everything um about escapes from a big prison is not like your hope it's going to be you know I turned it out walked around the streets and it had streets inside it um and timed it with my trusty Casio and it was so I knew roughly how long it would take to get me but the night's a different world I'm a prisoner I'm only used to noise during the day even the fan chopping around in the Cell at night it's so quiet everything I did squeaked and rattled and twisted I came across a panel that had to be a nail had to come out and that and they'll protest it and scream their wrench out of the way it took um uh seven or eight worlds uh sorry seven or eight walls to cross over I say worlds because they really were every building was a different thing and I got lost and I went past the terminal AIDS Ward that building hundreds of guys all die and I could smell it before I got there because this necrotic Rotting Flesh and I couldn't resist looking in I'm carrying this huge long ladder made out of bamboo poles and fake picture frames gaffer taped along the center [Music] um and I looked up and I saw all these little faces in the Moonlight wrapped in so much pain and despair they didn't have the energy to cry out to the guards if they'd been in any other prisoners they would have the trustees there were absolute scum of the earth had whistled little uniforms sell the drugs one day and the rest of the guys for it the next all of that um and it was only by um well I only got to the outer wall by Dawn and if somebody had been with me I wouldn't have made it either you wouldn't have no imagine I've taken all night to get there and at each point where this something was unexpected I've had to dream up something and I get a little basic toolkit and I sometimes I'd have to sacrifice part of my ladder to make a hook to pull down barbed wire and the technique for using the thing was awkward you had to prop it walk up drop down the other side so you're twisting over the walls like that manual is entirely barbed wire so I had to go underneath it covered in mud the the last one was really too high and there was a Mars bar Creek the the moat that ran around I did you know if I was with somebody else we'd be arguing wouldn't we oh Spa Creek oh it was full of turds bombing around it was caught out of the sewer yeah you did ask um illustrative okay we're just gonna take a quick break from the show to talk about a sponsor of this episode better help better help is an online Counseling Service which connects people to therapists and counselors I'm joined by one of our producers bryony is counseling something you've had experience with do you know what it's interesting because when I was growing up the same kind of challenges in life would happen but people wouldn't necessarily go to therapy or talk about therapy and I feel like since uh maybe my late teens early 20s people are starting to go to therapy and talking about it and I have definitely used it in my life and it's been massively beneficial same and do you because I think one of the things that people often mistake they think it's just for big things yeah but what's the other experience of that thing I think life always throws you know small challenges and large challenges and sometimes the big things need talking about but actually you know starting a new school or starting a new job can rile up that same level of anxiety and it's just really helpful to be able to talk to someone about it who is completely impartial not involved in your life and just kind of a safe space I guess to just say whatever you want to say you completely agree as the world's largest therapy service better help as much 3 million people with professionally licensed and vetted therapists available 100 online plus it's affordable just fill out a brief questionnaire to match with a therapist if things aren't clicking you can easily switch to a new therapist anytime it couldn't be simpler no waiting rooms no traffic no endless searching for the right therapist learn more and save 10 of your first month at betterhelp.com minutes with that's betterhelp help help.com minutes with um now there was one way of oh Beyond marsburg create this a foot and a half of land before this huge huge wall you've got to get a ladder that's too heavy to carry too imbalanced to do anything with but you've got a bit of rope how do you get it to the other side of Mars bar which has all got tangled barb wire in that so it'll catch get it in place and up against the wall when you've got no ground to to walk on now there is a way and uh I guess people have to listen to me describe it either to you or in my book okay fine but too long to tell here sure but um I could see the glow of dawn as I got to the top which had electricity running through it too just to make it the top of the wall dead yeah yeah wow but um my friend who um was in there a bit of a technician is to belong to the anarchist Society in in Britain how would you belong to a society that has rules when you anyway putting that aside he did tell me that it would only be 240 volts but to be careful um and just managed to get over that and because the original plan was to um oh there was an outer moat beyond that of 20 meters I had my clothes ready to go into a plastic bag swim the moat but just as well I didn't um because all it turned out all the guards houses were over the other side of that moat this would not be a place to go but I cleaned myself up threw some clothes on and I one of the jobs that I didn't do but I was supposed to be doing was working in the Umbrella Factory so I paid a local boy to do it um I've got a pop-up umbrella from there I thought you know you really get a perspective about I want to just simple discrimination but being an outsider a foreigner the way sometimes people feel picked upon you know we were called the white trash and we were in in Chains and everything so I knew I had to cover my face in the popular did it and I managed to get to a place where a passport was hidden and to the airport and still had a working ATM card to get me out of the country into Singapore so did you end up with the umbrella did you walk out the front gate yeah I did I had some long trousers on now in their prisoners are not allowed to wear them so I had some khaki pants I thought they might as I walked around the the narrow path to the front gate it's still mote but a little Bridge I thought another figure it's a guard arriving late and sneaking in and I did I felt like Ripley an alien uh looking at thinking lucky lucky this is where it all ends doesn't it and I'm thinking that every moment and looking up and there was just enough light rain to justify the umbrella yeah I would learn later that was actually the not a rain from the gods but the spittle of their laughter because they had worse things in mind for me later on I mean it's so it's you know how many people are you aware how many people had escaped from that prison up to that point was it some every year or was it very infrequent none um the ties sometimes ran away when they were doing the gardens in Chains outside but Escape From Within um I'd known of in 20 years people could recall two attempts no foreigners um and they didn't trust the foreigners that's why they put you on the third floor right quite rightly yes and and how long had it taken you from like the beginning of the uh I started cutting at um 11 45 I paid a lot to get a light switch in there normally the lights are on all the time um okay and I said to my favorite guard oh yeah Ponting or whatever his name was I can't sleep with that thing I'll put a light switch in um um now they didn't say it as corruption or bribe taking they thought I'm doing this nice guy a favor and I'll be lucky because of it that's a very big thing over there you know if I get caught I'm unlucky then so they can batter me to death I mean sure it's kind of self-justifies any action that a human being might take so he started cutting around eight for 11 45 11 45 okay it's quite close through one bar by two in the morning oh God stencia listen we'll go on the next note I looked around and Kevin the American from Hawaii I didn't even know this was happening uh Mirage the Indian I know he's going to talk the next morning he was kakaria LA pantaloni right in the cell never mind holding out and not saying anything he would have it would have been finished I never would have made it and I guess I could have seen the missing bars potentially but I learned later on I actually caught up with somebody who was in there Scottish guy um he was there for selling ecstasy to the Two well-off Sons and Daughters of wealthy policemen anyway um he remembers they the guards couldn't figure that I'd left oh um he said David they ran around the the prison calling out your name it was Daniel Westlake while I was there Daniel Daniel they okay that somebody drew their attention to the cut bar in there yeah my Scottish friend said they the gods wanted they thought that okay he's got out he's angry about something uh Daniel but he's not actually he'll never get out he couldn't get it they never found the the ladder down the front wall until much much later so for um uh uh only one of them said oh we better check the airport they sent a couple of guys down there um just a little bit late and you were gone by then only just and remember man you've got a passport from a Chinese connection that you barely know but kind of like the cut of his jib but are you gonna put your life on the line on that and at every moment you're handing it over you know like the look of it yeah they don't like the look of it they're typing it up and you're thinking they got onto the computer have they done that bit uh have they entered my arrival was this I knew it was freshly stolen or sold off was only a few weeks old uh I mean not new was had only gone missing a few weeks earlier so it was still good but very nerve-wracking and I didn't have a photo I had to use my old um uh radio operators license that had a photograph in it to get reproduced into this thing so it was a bit grainy um and even on the plane it was delay and takeoff oh God and a mumbling Captain oh sorry um we we have a thing with one passenger I just asked what thing exactly soon enough thwomp doors to manual oh but I've got an hour you know looking at this passport I don't like it get to Singapore but I make it through so you got to Singapore yeah but you did end up going back to prison not a Thai prison but a different prison he's suggesting uh I did something wrong well I'm hoping you're going to tell me um no well okay uh I didn't stay in Singapore long because um I sat there in the hotel room unable to digest food not prepared by my own cook sure I in the hotel room in Singapore I realized you could work out who had left that day if they'd flown my air by simply going to the airport and children you work it out yourselves at home you check everybody who's left separate the foreigners hmm go a step further let's keep the Canadian and American the British the Australian New Zealand all the English-speaking passport Society um just to you know reduce the numbers take those names check with the embassies any of these names belong to lost or stolen passports that have been reported yeah five of them because that's Bangkok you know not the only Mischief maker there but nonetheless um they probably knew I could be who was I Charles McClintock hmm sorry Charles I had to borrow your passport but it was an essential cause but you're not wanted anymore of course are you no but I did get an unwelcome knock at the door some years ago uh by the police who um would it be to go excuse me Westminster Court known for the terrorist cases extradition or parking fights wow I'd lift the car anywhere lately so it was going to be one of the other two and it was extradition to Thailand I fought that case for two years and um it was difficult um but managed to effectively win in the end so the ties have dropped that one and I can't be taken back there I'm not wanted anywhere um I can nobody can do what they want but um I I'm not I haven't got anything pending I'm not in business I'm a bit cautious I even got sent something in the the mail a few years ago and I thought it was some gift from some halfway ambitious wombat in in Pakistan sending me a bit of dope thinking oh yeah there's a gift you might like that connection made no I mean people had my address all around the world ever since Danny Dyer um it turned out to be more complicated than that but um very dangerous for me to walk into a courtroom so I don't even imagine you're me and knock at the door oh here's something for you Ben you don't like the look of it you refuse it you're in court no matter why did you refuse that was it your name no you was up The Jig was up proof ladies and gentlemen oh you accept it ah you accepted it proof ladies and gentlemen wife saying to me Jeanette and whom I met in Pakistan years ago and she was there to fish out her husband on a two-ton hash deal he didn't make it anyway um she said throw the thing away I'm thinking in court again ladies and gentlemen he threw the stuff away I can't win so very cautious about all that kind of stuff um fair enough but I take it you won't be going for a holiday to Thailand anytime soon I didn't think so okay so how many do you know off the top of your head of your life how many years of your life have you spent in prison ultimately I did add it up once I'm 66 now and I suppose I've spent um but 22 years the thing that occurs to me and I met you before and I thought the same thing is like you obviously extremely intelligent extremely resourceful it can't be well but well anyway but do you regret the choices you made in terms of do you see those 22 years in prison as something you had no control over it's just the way the dice rolled or do you see them as a mistake on your part um worse than a mistake mistake suggest you didn't know uh where you were going wrong I was taking those steps into uh of a precipice that I'd defied there is no gravity I said I said I will work out something before I hit the ground um when I was It was kind of in stages when I was young it was just arrogance and and showing off and later on when everything was destroyed it was kind of I'd scraped away all of my life and would just go on um then in the third stage it was escaping away from places rebuilding up and being weakened every time it was taken away again um and do I regret it yeah I'm sure I um no you know some people say oh yeah but David just smuggled everything on Earth you scumbag you you know um think of the lives you've destroyed and the people you've heard ah and I go to start to explain that it's not quite black and white uh I mean I've had drug habits myself that I've carelessly allowed um but I thought what's the point anything I say we just sound like self-justification so well don't listen to me then you know but things that have happened that have taught me a lot it's interesting you say that because one of a lot of the comments on our well on the first video we did a lot of the comments where people saying someone needs to make a movie about this guy but a lot of the other comments were people saying he's so charismatic and likable but he must be a really dangerous person to have been involved with all these worlds for so long and um we've interviewed a couple of drug smugglers and I would say they're the ones that I've met have been the ones that probably are more someone you'd see is traditionally quite an obviously dangerous person you come across as very Charming charismatic roguish where do you see yourself on that scale do you see yourself as someone who was dangerous or do you see yourself as someone who's just moved from area to area as it occurred um kind of like this a dangerous I suppose what most people see that and you know if somebody was a problem for me would I find the best option to have them killed or not but really there always was a kind of Vestige of that's a failure if you can't think of anything better than to have them killed then then then what are you doing there's a million clever ways of solving your problems and that besides which there's always going to be people you can't kill everybody um not only that who killed the killers that you've got to do the killing you know you know they always say that about the quiet ones and all of that but it was the people who bothered to put up a smoke screen um they're establishing a um later Alibi a courtroom personality but I met him he didn't seem bothered by all of that why would he have him killed and those are the ones that um seem to be more dangerous and if I was such a dangerous person like that I certainly been absolute fool to break from that mold and say otherwise wouldn't it very true David it's great to see you again thank you so much for coming in always a pleasure yeah and I've Got a Feeling we'll be seeing you again at some point as well it's possible it does may cross thank you I'll be like oh my God they're in my head they they know they know that was a song and so they put that song on the radio and it's all everything revolves around me or you know and this happened well sometimes happens today you know I'm I'm thinking of someone in my head someone under there like on the street	suppose I've spent um but 22 years the thing that occurs to me and I met you before and I thought the same thing is like you obviously extremely intelligent extremely resourceful it can't be well but well anyway but do you regret the choices you made in terms of do you see those 22 years in prison as something you had no control over it's just the way the dice rolled or do you see them as a mistake on your part um worse than a mistake mistake suggest you didn't know uh where you were going wrong I was taking those steps into uh of a precipice that I'd defied there is no gravity I said I said I will work out something before I hit the ground um when I was It was kind of in stages when I was young it was just arrogance and and showing off and later on when everything was destroyed it was kind of I'd scraped away all of my life and would just go on um then in the third stage it was escaping away from places rebuilding up and being weakened every time it was taken away again um and do I regret it yeah I'm sure I um no you know some people say oh yeah but David just smuggled everything on Earth you scumbag you you know um think of the lives you've destroyed and the people you've heard ah and I go to start to explain	-2	4	-5	suppose I've spent um but 22 years the thing that occurs to me and I met you before and I thought the same thing is like you obviously extremely intelligent extremely resourceful it can't be well but well anyway but do you regret the choices you made in terms of do you see those 22 years in prison as something you had no control over it's just the way the dice rolled or do you see them as a mistake on your part um worse than a mistake mistake suggest you didn't know uh where you were going wrong	yeah I'm sure I um no you know some people say oh yeah but David just smuggled everything on Earth you scumbag you you know um think of the lives you've destroyed and the people you've heard ah and I go to start to explain	5,-2,7	2,4,-5	5	-2	7	2	4	-5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyZyHHexx7s	4,101	oyZyHHexx7s	2022-12-07 00:00:00	even though I was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off I couldn't get people to go with me I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars [Music] it's great to have you back David obviously we've met before but for anyone who doesn't know who you are for new listeners or new viewers could you give us a brief introduction to what you are famous for well I suppose uh most well known for uh having escaped to prison in Thailand in Bangkok uh the biggest one they have there clong Prim it uh wasn't something I did frivolously I was going to be executed within a couple of weeks so it seemed like a good time to leave okay now um we're going to get into that in a bit more detail but one thing that I remember about you from last time is you're the most incredible talker and we took away the inter the initial interview we've done with you and ended up having to make it into two long episodes because you have a lot of different very colorful uh experiences so do forgive me if I Jimmy us through oh no I can understand that I mean the only place I never talk is in the police station I always like some of my uh work colleagues took um what was it one slap to get them talking but five to shut them up oh okay so let's go right back to the beginning um you were born in the UK and then I believe you emigrated to Australia well um it was all a family thing yes I was born in basewater in London I spent the first few years of my life then uh there but my parents broke up divorced and I went with my mother to Australia with my older sister so I don't have any really very early memories of London apart from some old eight millimeter movie footage of me learning to walk in Hyde Park my dad was waving a five pound note in front of my face and I was making every effort to grab it I continued that behavior for many many years afterwards returned to Australia um finished some schooling um got really contrasting jobs I worked in an adult Agency for a while um but also before that I was got a job in a cinema now it was the and under literally an underground place but it was there that I got introduced to a bunch of crooks um some of the girls there had boyfriends that I used to run down with um strange boxes or bits of money or fur coats and then wink at me bolt out the back door pursued by often policemen undercover ones of course whom we'd misdirect somewhere but that Circle they were um safe crackers and they really didn't trust Outsiders and didn't much like the sound of me but because of I demonstrated a couple of things by being look everybody was really very anti-authority then I I don't mean hostile but for people now they they wouldn't have experienced that in the uh late 60s 70s we were so snotty and arrogant we really thought we were going to change the world and that um the laws were all nothing and the way to change them was to break them well that was the kind of vanity we had so um when I got to know the safe crackers uh better there was something really interesting I mean I didn't like the idea you know stealing things seemed a bit tacky but on the other hand they kind of all needed the money from the from their backgrounds and everything but that wasn't so much the the interest it was the technicalities of getting into these things okay um they used to drill through the top um having anchored it with the drill with clamps and and put a kind of little lens inside a cystoscope used in medicine and watch the the wheels turning around this is the old kind of old-fashioned Hollywood style it was yeah and um behind the safe were three discs and you had to line them up and they'd once they got in they'd take the door with them so that the opposition the safe makers wouldn't know how they'd got in and it was a a constant battle between the manufacturers and them because they've come across new safes which had Special Metals in it that was mixed like a a crunchy nut bar very hard metals very soft ones so the drill bit would slip on them snap and you got a sense that this was almost like a game where um they would try something then try to beat them and they were very loyal to each other um they they never spoke out of school as it were um when I got involved with them I'd only have to if I had trouble I don't have to make one phone call and people would appear out of nowhere and I thought yeah this this is kind of better than the treacherous boys school that I I grew up in and how old were you at this point um 19 years old 19. so were you thinking you were making a conscious decision to move into illegal activities or at that point in time and at that point in the world did it feel like more of a kind of a bit of roguish fun would you say I was drawn to it anyway because it was interesting and um I didn't really have a lot of fear I think sometimes what we do or don't do is depending on how scary it seems yeah agreed um I was born with a low resting heart rate as they say you know if it's below 70 you're a risk taker I don't know why that is when the safe crackers retired they put some of their money into growing little crops of weed and so on but profit margin is is only through importing because like the price difference is cheap in the source countries expensive where it sells so because they couldn't do it they were almost throwing it down like a challenge like we don't know anybody who can do this and I thought well I traveled a lot um I didn't think it was going to be impossible um I thought the odds were in my phone and I looked it up I went to the library and sort of researched it a bit and where were you thinking which country Well they um they were very keen to get some um hashish from India or Nepal or somewhere okay I could see um it's bulky and there's packing problems so um they funded me and off I sailed now the operation my first operation was so deplorably bad I'm barely 20 years old I my cunning plan which involved a big piece of exported Machinery which had weights in it so the weights would come out the cash would go in it would weigh the same being returned and it was a piece of Television equipment or something that went South immediately when I didn't realize that I would have to pay a huge deposit in duty to even bring it in as a demo machine so forget that I ended up in short meeting a guy in a money exchange section of a bank I was there because I ran out and I had to send asking for more from the boys and I met him and he wasn't involved in any of this but he soon became that just he managed to get me six kilos of hash I took the 1952 ancient Grundig radio from his parents house the Shelf there guttered the thing like a fish wrapped it up and he had to get cling film in those days think of this before you travel arriving with a suitcase full of cling film doesn't look good I suppose but uh wedged it in there and then just flew back to Sydney now you can imagine what happened well just before we get on to what happened you know one thing that strikes me is what year was would this have been this was uh 77 77 so it's amazing think that back then if someone was going to India for the first time now they could go on Google Maps they could research it or they could find out who they could find phone numbers contacts they could be put in contact with people before they've even set off whereas you must have at that age at that time been going in slightly blind you know touching down in a foreign country that you didn't know well no contacts was that not quite daunting well what was more um troubling with um how everything would fail and then I'd have to um you know come up with another plan what context somebody I knew um um there were no bank robber who joined the hare krishnas and fled to India right and I had his name and and the ashram in Delhi where where he was was supposed to have been uh I didn't really catch up with him on that trip but okay sure so so then you get back to Australia with your radio that is now full to the brim with and I get stopped you you did get stopped okay I could stop because uh I'm I'm on a British passport um and it's the only trip I've ever done and I'm that age I'd stop me oh fatherly type was at the Customs desk now the the systems were different in those days um it was Sydney too which is very and certainly was very relaxed back then right he opened the suitcase uh there was nothing in there except a pair of socks there's a towel wrapping up this massive radio which he lifted up so it was buckled at the sides little red packets poking out oh it smelled like a hedgehog for a patchouliers okay not much of a disguise um he let me go he uh put it back looked around to make sure that none of his workmates were watching him being so soft um and then turned to me and said you're going back there you're going to do this again [Music] all right you can take your we'll call it a radio shall we get out of here what he thought I realized later was that he didn't want the whole grammar of the day arresting me filling out papers and it would have been a a long time plus I guess being a dad he thought if I he's obviously an idiot you're right if I send him into Gladiator Academy or it wasn't really like that in those days but certainly contact center um the prison what am I doing um well I guess uh he was hopeful you know I whilst out of there must have smuggling me but I experienced then what um I got years later which was kind of a real Downer after you know having got nowhere with The Hare krishnas and and cultivated the shoeshine boys and had my money stolen at Amex uh by some Scallywags in Delhi all sorts of Little Adventures over there in India and nonetheless made it it's kind of like that's all there is to it I I didn't really want to give it to anyone um sort of felt like you didn't have a big moment of no a bit of money that came earlier that's handy right uh I paid back what I owed and settled up for for the next thing so but once that was started when you sorry I interrupted you go oh I was just going to say it to finish it even though they'd funded me the guys were very surprised to see me back but at all at all oh you made it oh because some of them say oh you'll just run away with it uh even if that's what he's doing who knows what he's doing you know and then I could see sitting around you can imagine there's like a table full of well like three guys and then a kind of Darkness shrouded over that room I thought uh it's not valuable enough to kill me you know what what is this mood why did you bring that well that's what you've been talking about yeah you could have loaded that with cane or smack or something you guys we say nothing but terrible things about a class or heavy drugs that don't want to know about it right and I could read then that wait a minute there we're all might be guys together and having fun getting into the safe and whatnot but there was a kind of different it was something a very strong lesson I'd have to be thoughtful about that um there could be times where things didn't work out not necessarily that my safety was at risk I didn't see it that way but I knew that there were Ruthless People right okay yeah so you got an insight into a mindset that had been a bit below the surface it was there I just chose not to see it but um I then went on to you know refine everything and Vary everything and then did you after that first time did you were you still working sort of for them or did you immediately well when you wake up on your own when things um I picked up and there was enough money around out of uh out of strategy rather than just being a nice guy I gave my partners a kind of thank you bonus from the next thing that I did but I did that all myself right so it was almost like a yeah separation and I wanted to go back to the my hippie friends anyway they were a little less it wasn't that they were scary but but that didn't last because they were maybe friends might be all right but they will certainly careless and stupid but from from that point onwards after that initial Journey was that you then into the world of smuggling I thought this won't last forever you only need one setback and that changes it I probably made quite a lot of money and I could have got out but and I should have gotta you know I have couriers a leak from one of the the couriers brought the police to me and here was the problem with it it was at first I scattered now I was married to my first wife then clearly Italian girl her dad had restaurants I grabbed her I had a secret drawer with extra passports in it some money ended up four plane Journeys later in um off the Bahamas had the skipper of a day rent yacht and take me out to an island and nobody had ever been on before it was empty sat there on a towel I thought hmm the level of surveillance I had means it's quite a big operation they're funded and I checked with a lawyer before the bigger the money they spent the more determined they'll be stay away or go back I mean I don't know why would anybody do this uh well I wasn't broke um I didn't have to there was no pressure on me the more I went through the problems the more attractive the whole thing is uh she didn't like it much well again do you think because it was a puzzle to be solved because um arrogance really we've gone from basically someone who was kind of mildly interested in making a group of people meeting a group of um safe hackers to someone who pulled off their first thing and then we've jumped to someone who has people working for them and and now is no longer taking the risk themselves now the police are on to you and you're on this desert island well small island and you're thinking about going back into it was this like a turning point in your life in terms of going you know because the other option I suppose was to go straight but were you just more it was that just not an option for you I'd gone to my lawyer Ralph he said look this is what I picked up because I my travel agent had tipped me to a couple of detectives that come in he traveled again while I was in on the phone okay uh actually they're all innocent really yeah you know and and gave him a long list of names um they wanted travel details for and a telephone number which I traced uh to um a private office building which had been rented by state and federal police they were so distrusting of their own they didn't want to even run this thing from um regular police headquarters my lawyer said well what you sure it's you said Ralph look at the list of names there's 30 there I'm 26 of them passports are a lot easier to get back then than there now so you had 26 aliases that you were traveling on yeah right okay um and I described where they were he said David they are funded well they're not bear this in mind but although I what they won't get me with anything they're funded you think they're going to walk away after a year and say oh sorry boss you spend a million dollars and uh nothing doing they don't work like that but this is how stubborn I was I thought because he said the only thing you can do is disappear for at least a couple of years and then you can come back if that's what you want and of course I had justifications for it I thought okay I'll I'll build up a bit more money and then I'll disappear but um it was only after things went terribly badly that I realized I shouldn't play like this anymore what it was they um because the challenge just kept coming so now so did you go back to Australia I went back to Australia and and when I retired within three months right but they weren't waiting for you to arrest you or no no they wanted they wanted something solid okay [Music] um I won't go into the long machinations of it all but um somebody we knew uh was getting things from a Thai Courier and he got arrested he sold us out to the police so that that The Courier would now come to us and I always have some solid evidence right he would bring things but we got away with that because that was another challenge but the police got tired of all this arrested me no drugs of course so it was a difficult case the worst kind of case is that where there's no solid evidence and in a way it's better to go to court where you've got a Smoking Gun and a dead body on the ground because at least you know where you are but where there's nothing tangible and it's conspiracies and this was a huge trial six months long what is that 119 Witnesses 6 000 pages of uh telephone intercept massive thing won't made it worse too and I think this was um would change things for me um the pressure was put on for confessions but it'd be silly to confess and you can't confess on somebody else's behalf can you that's not nice um lots of the family were arrested even my mother was taken and it went oh wow just to put pressure on uh did she know what you did oh she had an idea right okay I mean I used to have bin liners full of money I'd leave behind the fridge yeah you don't get that in the cinema do you not done not a very good day you know uh because they arrested so many people now when they arrested our wives and my business partner Michael his wife just had a baby it was we had to do a deal here I didn't want to but I was going to say I said to Michael look I know you don't like it but we'll play to it get the girls out of trouble we'll Escape that's a good challenge that way [Music] um but unfortunately um the intelligence section put an arsonist Informer in with the girls to get some information her fire was lit uh burnt down the women's prison and my wife and my business partner's wife was were killed uh that's awful and so the Informer that they put in there yeah why did they pick an arsonist for Daniel writer name was I don't know why I remember that after 40 years God so that's quite a big that was oh and and just uh to make things worse the story put about town to scare the careers into talking because they wouldn't speak was that we'd we were killing off all the witnesses and starting with our own family where does that come from um we ended up in a super max prison nightmarish electronic zoo with two inch glass and electronic doors and insane inmates held 48 death rate 27 people a year died in that little supermax going to court in Chains with a SWAT team taking it it was so so much Michael fell to pieces he was just a wreck he didn't make it uh he survived the jail but died when he got out the only way I could survive all of that was to strip away everything I you know I found myself in the supermax concrete everything's concrete the bed everything there's no everything's still just with the tape player from my lure listening to the the tapes the bug tapes the microphones in my house I could play back my life for the last six months clearly you're moving from room to room taking telephone calls she was crying about something I didn't know what I never know and David that's gone immerse yourself in the worst that they have you will not survive this otherwise trial sort of went not so good acquitted of most things but convicted enough 10 years difficult imprisonment but I the only way I could deal with it was to say did I want revenge that was more my fault I brought this about I got her in there I mean a family of a very kind to me about it considering I wouldn't be but it doesn't matter in Chains and super Mech strip it all away it is nothing everyone is a potential enemy everything it just nothing mattered win the day win the night I mean this is a place we had to fill in a book to get some toilet paper the showers were in front of them in a glass box um if you went on a visit they'd zip you up and lock you in a suit so you had no pockets there was after that and her death I felt like there was nothing that could affect me you're wrong about these things you know we're human but I got out and they were there they even visited me to say we'll be on you when you get out the police yeah we enjoyed the old days didn't you yeah I said pretending you know and just to make the point that they were there when I got out um I I'd done a whole lot of Woodwork in the prison in the last place I was at carving intricate things making these really great trick Chinese boxes with beeswax they intercepted the van that was taking it from the prison back to my house and smashed it all to pieces I put it in a box just to say don't think that we will never be here we can do what we want so I decided to leave the country I was um how old am I by then let's work it out yeah uh I started all this Mischief when I was about 18 got arrested at 22. 23 uh um 16 years 17 years either under surveillance or in bad prisons got out and I'm under surveillance again um so how old so you're number 37 about 37. so that's already you know that's a big chunk of Life there but you've lost quite a lot of it to prison or surveillance well at no point now were you like okay and I wasn't a normal person uh really when I got out because of the experience of prison I'd already stripped most of Myself Away to deal with the death of the Superman yeah and and watching people be burnt to death in the place which was frequent somebody had contact glue pulled all over him and then satellite oh God Gods came in and the other one's standing there with a Tire swinging it around to make sure to let him burn let him burn Jesus Barry's name was testicles swollen like apples but black okay he died two hours later in hospital anyway um that was regular account to deal with that I'd already strip things away so when I got a little apartment when I got out and my mother had arranged things for me when they were there when they'd leave rude messages on my answer machine when they'd be behind me everywhere I thought all right I remember this David it never ends if you want to survive go back to the way you were you know in in the super max Anything Can Happen anytime but I didn't want to live like that um I got a fresh passport and most elaborate means um I could spend a week explaining how that came into existence but I went to Thailand to pick up some money I had three days there it was just before Christmas I left at that time on purpose so that they maybe I thought maybe it's their weak point that they want to have families in their life just at Christmas I've parked my mum's car and and left the keys somewhere for her nobody knew were you not meant to leave the country no no no licenses oh I see we're just going to take a minute here to talk about a sponsor of this show which is manscaped we were sent a package to try out by manscaped but Conor one of our producers is already a fan of the brand I believe yeah absolutely I've been using manscape for a little while now and Ben as you know it's that time of year people start asking you what you want for Christmas and I would say that a great gift for a man especially one that might have everything is the manscape performance package 4.0 so what's in that so you get the lawnmower 4.0 electric trimmer you get some anti-chafe boxer shorts which I can vouch for as well as a couple of other grooming products that smell great fantastic well it sounds like a five-star review from uconnor absolutely so Connor you were talking about the performance package there's loads of other great gift ideas such as the hygiene bundle all available at manscape.com com and all gifts that men will genuinely love to receive this Christmas if you are a listener of this podcast you get 20 off and free shipping all you have to do is go to manscape.com and use the code minutes that's manscape.com m-i-n-u-t-e-s minutes um so why are we doing that the risk is it worth it I didn't want to play anymore right I wanted to uh see if I could have a something resembling like a a real life just to find some corner of the world plan was to to return to London and oh so you were leaving forever I'm leaving forever okay I see nobody knew it um I had a couple of hundred thousand in Thailand I thought um which I returned to pick up um now I suppose people say this Crooks always say this most unusual circumstances led to my arrest well they were but then again they always are aren't they or you wouldn't be telling the story or you wouldn't have been arrested but um the USDA was involved lots of people lots of players uh no real drugs are found uh they did an airport sweep and listed me up for like an ounce of something and a false passport or two the money I had just disappeared into pockets but those when I arrived there I felt so free I knew this identity was good I just like floating on air really I slipped out of my protective mode you know that when we stick to the plan and all right you don't want to leave I should have even stayed there for six months just get some sensible view of the world but I I didn't uh and as I went to the airport I could see they were all around me and I melted back into the crowd and disappeared again I thought well that serves me right for changing that attitude I'd had from back in super max and I just glaze over concentrate on the details which I needed to do because when I went to make a phone call later at the travel agency uh waiting it was so depressing being thrown into the Thai prison and I had some idea what they'd be like um people I'd known had been arrested there I knew this much it never won a case you never get out well you get out and what were they arresting you for was it the the uh the passport um what did the the the money wasn't I mean what did they leave 4 000 or something like that right and there are airports we put um I saw the guy walking in with it in a plastic bag you know whatever people throw on the floor before they go through security there was a bit of hash this usual bits of weed but what they really wanted was um this 25 grams of heroin because that would finish me off a policeman um Australian one said was that yours yeah yeah sure it was he said I didn't think so what would you be carrying around that for I mean if it was 10 kilos I might understand but but that was enough the death penalty and was it yours no no no so where where would that come from if you do they do a sweep every afternoon at five o'clock they get tons of it right I get you know nervous passengers go up and then they change their minds and they throw it in the toilet too and were they just did do you think they believed it was yours or do you think they were just going this is we need to give him this bit no no I think they were using it hoping to that would be good to hold and maybe they could get something else find out what I was up to who I was seeing because I had met um somebody who's whose uncle was a big player right so there was there was I think they were optimistic there might be more Camp come out of it but but there wasn't but what difference did it make and I wasn't really worried about um those drugs or the death penalty I wanted to die anyway frankly my first escape plans from there had this I imagine getting out to find the Privacy to kill myself right I wanted to go to the dusa Tony Hotel I knew Which floor and where to get onto the roof I'd taken photographs from there many years before um they were you simply couldn't get a moment's piece dormitories with 150 guys in them screaming all night um we can't even take a crap in peace in the Thai prison We're Not Afraid though of what killing myself well no I mean I don't know being brutalized by the guards or the inmates so well I knew enough about Thailand to to know that it was a little more comic than than bad there were very bad things happen they used to um they've beaten people a couple of people get beaten to death every day there but it's a very big prison we have to get that in proportion I only wish they wouldn't use the food trolley to take the dead bodies out because um you know they don't clean them up um and could you speak the language or were you quite it was a quite different communication uh not really uh and the few languages that uh pitch up in my travels I always found that even if you know them it's better to pretend you don't okay um because they'll talk about you behind your back you know certainly didn't live it on there was I I just couldn't see any point I'd gone to such elaborate precautions on this trip um it just shouldn't have happened and I even got away from the airport and still it happened oh all that confidence that I'll figure a way out I didn't care anymore I just had enough um and I remember seeing an old guy there if you had to go to court they put change on you and um you'd line up on the ground now this old guy I was looking at him because I don't know why a big soundtrack went past he had the presence of mind to push his head under that sand truck and oh it twisted it around popped like a watermelon being dropped on the ground oh my God guys very annoyed told the trustees to get that thing away out of sight was that nice thing called it I thought you Brave bastard you yeah you've got the guts to do that was it not quite a disturbing thing to witness no it was shocking because if you haven't seen it kind of thing up close and I happen to be looking um it was uh but that that's how I felt about it but I was saved In The End by a con man and people say a lot of bad things about economy they do yes they do and they uh you can't be trusted uh they are rottenness and they will cheat you just because they're the Scorpion that's in their nature uh but sometimes they're just what you need and this rather smooth um Bostonian American um who spoke Thai and really knew his way around and I you know I thought the somewhere in this huge prison there'd be an enclave of rich and corrupt foreigners with loads of money and there'd be luxuries it wasn't there was nobody of any importance in there you know a couple of big sacrifices had been made but um a couple of very rich policemen who were in the hospital in intensive care but other than that it was it was just um the people who reached the absolute bottom Drifters in Asia who did run after run and then got sacrificed to the machine they'd get about four jobs a big Syndicate there operating careers had run four times bang they'd shot them to the police they'd be gone oh God they will turn told the same story and it was Joe it was this guest house it was such and such identical and um and and at this point had you been sentenced to death had you received oh no no no I I was trying to avoid that yeah once I came to my senses because the the Boston con had so many wonderful schemes medical thing to get me bail and know some way of a escape with a go to court I get snatched from there I had villains come over and and scope out the court too because there was a way I thought of getting out of there from the lift that took you up to the the building uh snatched from the middle as you go down changed into a different set of clothes but they all got scared thing about um some of our most loved uh and fearless villains they're pretty good in the local manner but you throw them into a place like that where people carry machine guns and shoot at will just for the hell of it not so confident they like the upper edge of being snakes um so I couldn't convince anybody to really help and it was just as well um and two and a half years passed there in this prison it's a long time it was I sort of perked up a little bit pulled myself together started exercising um got a couple of ATM cards over hadn't my favorite god um he was in charge of the the building bought myself a room renovated um so you had you bought a room within the prison that was just for you rented that's rented right you know and is that an official thing that you're allowed to do right there are places in the world where it's official right but you had an influx of money that you could pay for special treats you could survive there on um less than 500 pounds a month and be king oh wow was this the 70s or the 80s now by the way we're into um 90 495 19 the 495 because what's reported about you is that during the 80s you were a multi-millionaire um is that accurate um now what do we call a multi-millionaires a young halfway with a million and a quarter on a glass coffee table and looks around the living room and thinks I've got to get a sofa one of these days um oh goes to the car auctions in the morning buys a big yank tank with a 427 Chevy engine in it um drives it around makes his own car parking spaces you know we're smashing the front in backing the other one pushing the other cars out of the way um oh stoned off my head most of the time uh if I wasn't stunned enough I'd take a few mandracks just to colludes icing on the cake um so I didn't take care of the money and the money didn't take care of me so I guess I'm like the reason I the reason I asked was because it must have been quite a stark change going from a very rich existence to basically somewhere where you basically couldn't pay for anything initially and it was a very poor existence but I guess from what you're saying there it's not like you felt like you were Rich at the time um I've made that contrast a few times when I had my first big arrest I couldn't as I was in a cold near lightless cell of blue stone and horse hair mattress about two inches thick and wrecking a piss I would think back to the night before when I had my important to tell in huge bed and Irish linen sheets and swimming pool out there and um and we had to kind of shake off the contrast but that rubber banding must must have been hard to take because it's you're going from basically the aspiration of almost everyone where you're talking about just buying cars outright and having a swimming pool to a piss stinking bed you know it must be it was you know it's odd thing about it was providing I could see a way out a work a way out I didn't so much mind oh okay um I really trained myself to expect my whatever world I built up and and this happened several times I've done it five times had a new identity New Life new surroundings even new people and dang they're gone and every time it got worse um and there was even Thailand was desperately important because even though it was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it um you know I was somebody that nobody minded killing um so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah there's nothing like the prospect of being executed by a machine gun which is the way they did it God is that what it would have been wow yeah you know oh they'd have three guards all with a bit of string on the trigger and they'd all pull it once so that none of them could be condemned in the Buddhist sense of sin oh they don't even actually right I see it caused the bullet that finished you off oh I see so you're in the Thai prison you've been sentenced to uh rather unpleasant death penalty um how did you start coming up with this famous plan for escaping um desperation it was the last plan that looked like it was going to work um there were probably about 20 plans considered um everything from being the prison held I've since found out it holds 22 000 people oh my God in 10 sub prisons uh there's a women's section there's a young offenders there's a special reminder a drug unit all of that um just a wild place it has everything it even had a prisoner-run shop where you could extract you could borrow money against your account and cash anyway um one of the plans involved being welded into a VW Combi van in the prisons Auto Workshop which would be picked up early Monday morning and I'd be driven out and that another one was um there were several courtroom ones and you couldn't just pay your way out no no it's just you could pay to have a mobile phone which in those days was a rare thing but they were around um you could pay for a bottle of clong uh whiskey you could pay I'm sure you could pay to get a a girl in your room if you could work out what a room was that a whole section full of ladyboys there and got a building full of them they used to open it up on Saturdays so um you could pay for anything but not to leave they couldn't cover that and they couldn't trust each other you would need 25 30 different guards paid off and and the gods of visitors I mean too many guides no that wouldn't work and they looked at it as a kind of betrayal only if I saw two escapes attempts there one group of uh straight kids and a Singaporean got out of their cell incredibly turned themselves into the sleeping God when they'd all lied to each other about what they didn't have you know the ropes and ways out because they're it was so outraged that they'd spoiled the guys jobs they beat them to death slowly tortured them over three months to death having put them in little code lockers the soy they call them drag them out in elephant chains every day and batter them senseless uh internal bleeding usually did it um look I've got a bowl of rice and a painting to poo in that was it um even the water was it was just too horrible so if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off even my Swedish friends Sten the Viking he backed out at the last minute I couldn't get people to go with me all the other plants had fallen to bits because they depended on other people I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars and I needed equipment for that and here's a really important point I guess as bad as this world is you've got to try to find good people if you ask somebody if you asked your friend yeah and and you're finished you'll manage to get a phone call and say friend it's been here um I need you to get um I don't know four hacksaw blades and cut them into the dowel rods of a of a poster and then paint it all up and send it in a huge package with this that cable ties gaffer tape but disguise all that how many people are going to do it turn around wouldn't believe it Ben called me what his neck yeah he's screwed but anyway he wouldn't believe but he wants me to do this that now people don't do it but Michael on the other hand our business partner wouldn't even let me explain he hadn't heard from me in 18 months he said David don't explain I'm sure we could get cut off tell me the important part now where do I have to be and what do I have to bring no that's a friend um and so I've always tried to do the same for the others that I've known like that um but um I did get the equipment together that I needed and everything um about escapes from a big prison is not like your hope it's going to be you know I turned it out walked around the streets and it had streets inside it um and timed it with my trusty Casio and it was so I knew roughly how long it would take to get me but the night's a different world I'm a prisoner I'm only used to noise during the day even the fan chopping around in the Cell at night it's so quiet everything I did squeaked and rattled and twisted I came across a panel that had to be a nail had to come out and that and they'll protest it and scream their wrench out of the way it took um uh seven or eight worlds uh sorry seven or eight walls to cross over I say worlds because they really were every building was a different thing and I got lost and I went past the terminal AIDS Ward that building hundreds of guys all die and I could smell it before I got there because this necrotic Rotting Flesh and I couldn't resist looking in I'm carrying this huge long ladder made out of bamboo poles and fake picture frames gaffer taped along the center [Music] um and I looked up and I saw all these little faces in the Moonlight wrapped in so much pain and despair they didn't have the energy to cry out to the guards if they'd been in any other prisoners they would have the trustees there were absolute scum of the earth had whistled little uniforms sell the drugs one day and the rest of the guys for it the next all of that um and it was only by um well I only got to the outer wall by Dawn and if somebody had been with me I wouldn't have made it either you wouldn't have no imagine I've taken all night to get there and at each point where this something was unexpected I've had to dream up something and I get a little basic toolkit and I sometimes I'd have to sacrifice part of my ladder to make a hook to pull down barbed wire and the technique for using the thing was awkward you had to prop it walk up drop down the other side so you're twisting over the walls like that manual is entirely barbed wire so I had to go underneath it covered in mud the the last one was really too high and there was a Mars bar Creek the the moat that ran around I did you know if I was with somebody else we'd be arguing wouldn't we oh Spa Creek oh it was full of turds bombing around it was caught out of the sewer yeah you did ask um illustrative okay we're just gonna take a quick break from the show to talk about a sponsor of this episode better help better help is an online Counseling Service which connects people to therapists and counselors I'm joined by one of our producers bryony is counseling something you've had experience with do you know what it's interesting because when I was growing up the same kind of challenges in life would happen but people wouldn't necessarily go to therapy or talk about therapy and I feel like since uh maybe my late teens early 20s people are starting to go to therapy and talking about it and I have definitely used it in my life and it's been massively beneficial same and do you because I think one of the things that people often mistake they think it's just for big things yeah but what's the other experience of that thing I think life always throws you know small challenges and large challenges and sometimes the big things need talking about but actually you know starting a new school or starting a new job can rile up that same level of anxiety and it's just really helpful to be able to talk to someone about it who is completely impartial not involved in your life and just kind of a safe space I guess to just say whatever you want to say you completely agree as the world's largest therapy service better help as much 3 million people with professionally licensed and vetted therapists available 100 online plus it's affordable just fill out a brief questionnaire to match with a therapist if things aren't clicking you can easily switch to a new therapist anytime it couldn't be simpler no waiting rooms no traffic no endless searching for the right therapist learn more and save 10 of your first month at betterhelp.com minutes with that's betterhelp help help.com minutes with um now there was one way of oh Beyond marsburg create this a foot and a half of land before this huge huge wall you've got to get a ladder that's too heavy to carry too imbalanced to do anything with but you've got a bit of rope how do you get it to the other side of Mars bar which has all got tangled barb wire in that so it'll catch get it in place and up against the wall when you've got no ground to to walk on now there is a way and uh I guess people have to listen to me describe it either to you or in my book okay fine but too long to tell here sure but um I could see the glow of dawn as I got to the top which had electricity running through it too just to make it the top of the wall dead yeah yeah wow but um my friend who um was in there a bit of a technician is to belong to the anarchist Society in in Britain how would you belong to a society that has rules when you anyway putting that aside he did tell me that it would only be 240 volts but to be careful um and just managed to get over that and because the original plan was to um oh there was an outer moat beyond that of 20 meters I had my clothes ready to go into a plastic bag swim the moat but just as well I didn't um because all it turned out all the guards houses were over the other side of that moat this would not be a place to go but I cleaned myself up threw some clothes on and I one of the jobs that I didn't do but I was supposed to be doing was working in the Umbrella Factory so I paid a local boy to do it um I've got a pop-up umbrella from there I thought you know you really get a perspective about I want to just simple discrimination but being an outsider a foreigner the way sometimes people feel picked upon you know we were called the white trash and we were in in Chains and everything so I knew I had to cover my face in the popular did it and I managed to get to a place where a passport was hidden and to the airport and still had a working ATM card to get me out of the country into Singapore so did you end up with the umbrella did you walk out the front gate yeah I did I had some long trousers on now in their prisoners are not allowed to wear them so I had some khaki pants I thought they might as I walked around the the narrow path to the front gate it's still mote but a little Bridge I thought another figure it's a guard arriving late and sneaking in and I did I felt like Ripley an alien uh looking at thinking lucky lucky this is where it all ends doesn't it and I'm thinking that every moment and looking up and there was just enough light rain to justify the umbrella yeah I would learn later that was actually the not a rain from the gods but the spittle of their laughter because they had worse things in mind for me later on I mean it's so it's you know how many people are you aware how many people had escaped from that prison up to that point was it some every year or was it very infrequent none um the ties sometimes ran away when they were doing the gardens in Chains outside but Escape From Within um I'd known of in 20 years people could recall two attempts no foreigners um and they didn't trust the foreigners that's why they put you on the third floor right quite rightly yes and and how long had it taken you from like the beginning of the uh I started cutting at um 11 45 I paid a lot to get a light switch in there normally the lights are on all the time um okay and I said to my favorite guard oh yeah Ponting or whatever his name was I can't sleep with that thing I'll put a light switch in um um now they didn't say it as corruption or bribe taking they thought I'm doing this nice guy a favor and I'll be lucky because of it that's a very big thing over there you know if I get caught I'm unlucky then so they can batter me to death I mean sure it's kind of self-justifies any action that a human being might take so he started cutting around eight for 11 45 11 45 okay it's quite close through one bar by two in the morning oh God stencia listen we'll go on the next note I looked around and Kevin the American from Hawaii I didn't even know this was happening uh Mirage the Indian I know he's going to talk the next morning he was kakaria LA pantaloni right in the cell never mind holding out and not saying anything he would have it would have been finished I never would have made it and I guess I could have seen the missing bars potentially but I learned later on I actually caught up with somebody who was in there Scottish guy um he was there for selling ecstasy to the Two well-off Sons and Daughters of wealthy policemen anyway um he remembers they the guards couldn't figure that I'd left oh um he said David they ran around the the prison calling out your name it was Daniel Westlake while I was there Daniel Daniel they okay that somebody drew their attention to the cut bar in there yeah my Scottish friend said they the gods wanted they thought that okay he's got out he's angry about something uh Daniel but he's not actually he'll never get out he couldn't get it they never found the the ladder down the front wall until much much later so for um uh uh only one of them said oh we better check the airport they sent a couple of guys down there um just a little bit late and you were gone by then only just and remember man you've got a passport from a Chinese connection that you barely know but kind of like the cut of his jib but are you gonna put your life on the line on that and at every moment you're handing it over you know like the look of it yeah they don't like the look of it they're typing it up and you're thinking they got onto the computer have they done that bit uh have they entered my arrival was this I knew it was freshly stolen or sold off was only a few weeks old uh I mean not new was had only gone missing a few weeks earlier so it was still good but very nerve-wracking and I didn't have a photo I had to use my old um uh radio operators license that had a photograph in it to get reproduced into this thing so it was a bit grainy um and even on the plane it was delay and takeoff oh God and a mumbling Captain oh sorry um we we have a thing with one passenger I just asked what thing exactly soon enough thwomp doors to manual oh but I've got an hour you know looking at this passport I don't like it get to Singapore but I make it through so you got to Singapore yeah but you did end up going back to prison not a Thai prison but a different prison he's suggesting uh I did something wrong well I'm hoping you're going to tell me um no well okay uh I didn't stay in Singapore long because um I sat there in the hotel room unable to digest food not prepared by my own cook sure I in the hotel room in Singapore I realized you could work out who had left that day if they'd flown my air by simply going to the airport and children you work it out yourselves at home you check everybody who's left separate the foreigners hmm go a step further let's keep the Canadian and American the British the Australian New Zealand all the English-speaking passport Society um just to you know reduce the numbers take those names check with the embassies any of these names belong to lost or stolen passports that have been reported yeah five of them because that's Bangkok you know not the only Mischief maker there but nonetheless um they probably knew I could be who was I Charles McClintock hmm sorry Charles I had to borrow your passport but it was an essential cause but you're not wanted anymore of course are you no but I did get an unwelcome knock at the door some years ago uh by the police who um would it be to go excuse me Westminster Court known for the terrorist cases extradition or parking fights wow I'd lift the car anywhere lately so it was going to be one of the other two and it was extradition to Thailand I fought that case for two years and um it was difficult um but managed to effectively win in the end so the ties have dropped that one and I can't be taken back there I'm not wanted anywhere um I can nobody can do what they want but um I I'm not I haven't got anything pending I'm not in business I'm a bit cautious I even got sent something in the the mail a few years ago and I thought it was some gift from some halfway ambitious wombat in in Pakistan sending me a bit of dope thinking oh yeah there's a gift you might like that connection made no I mean people had my address all around the world ever since Danny Dyer um it turned out to be more complicated than that but um very dangerous for me to walk into a courtroom so I don't even imagine you're me and knock at the door oh here's something for you Ben you don't like the look of it you refuse it you're in court no matter why did you refuse that was it your name no you was up The Jig was up proof ladies and gentlemen oh you accept it ah you accepted it proof ladies and gentlemen wife saying to me Jeanette and whom I met in Pakistan years ago and she was there to fish out her husband on a two-ton hash deal he didn't make it anyway um she said throw the thing away I'm thinking in court again ladies and gentlemen he threw the stuff away I can't win so very cautious about all that kind of stuff um fair enough but I take it you won't be going for a holiday to Thailand anytime soon I didn't think so okay so how many do you know off the top of your head of your life how many years of your life have you spent in prison ultimately I did add it up once I'm 66 now and I suppose I've spent um but 22 years the thing that occurs to me and I met you before and I thought the same thing is like you obviously extremely intelligent extremely resourceful it can't be well but well anyway but do you regret the choices you made in terms of do you see those 22 years in prison as something you had no control over it's just the way the dice rolled or do you see them as a mistake on your part um worse than a mistake mistake suggest you didn't know uh where you were going wrong I was taking those steps into uh of a precipice that I'd defied there is no gravity I said I said I will work out something before I hit the ground um when I was It was kind of in stages when I was young it was just arrogance and and showing off and later on when everything was destroyed it was kind of I'd scraped away all of my life and would just go on um then in the third stage it was escaping away from places rebuilding up and being weakened every time it was taken away again um and do I regret it yeah I'm sure I um no you know some people say oh yeah but David just smuggled everything on Earth you scumbag you you know um think of the lives you've destroyed and the people you've heard ah and I go to start to explain that it's not quite black and white uh I mean I've had drug habits myself that I've carelessly allowed um but I thought what's the point anything I say we just sound like self-justification so well don't listen to me then you know but things that have happened that have taught me a lot it's interesting you say that because one of a lot of the comments on our well on the first video we did a lot of the comments where people saying someone needs to make a movie about this guy but a lot of the other comments were people saying he's so charismatic and likable but he must be a really dangerous person to have been involved with all these worlds for so long and um we've interviewed a couple of drug smugglers and I would say they're the ones that I've met have been the ones that probably are more someone you'd see is traditionally quite an obviously dangerous person you come across as very Charming charismatic roguish where do you see yourself on that scale do you see yourself as someone who was dangerous or do you see yourself as someone who's just moved from area to area as it occurred um kind of like this a dangerous I suppose what most people see that and you know if somebody was a problem for me would I find the best option to have them killed or not but really there always was a kind of Vestige of that's a failure if you can't think of anything better than to have them killed then then then what are you doing there's a million clever ways of solving your problems and that besides which there's always going to be people you can't kill everybody um not only that who killed the killers that you've got to do the killing you know you know they always say that about the quiet ones and all of that but it was the people who bothered to put up a smoke screen um they're establishing a um later Alibi a courtroom personality but I met him he didn't seem bothered by all of that why would he have him killed and those are the ones that um seem to be more dangerous and if I was such a dangerous person like that I certainly been absolute fool to break from that mold and say otherwise wouldn't it very true David it's great to see you again thank you so much for coming in always a pleasure yeah and I've Got a Feeling we'll be seeing you again at some point as well it's possible it does may cross thank you I'll be like oh my God they're in my head they they know they know that was a song and so they put that song on the radio and it's all everything revolves around me or you know and this happened well sometimes happens today you know I'm I'm thinking of someone in my head someone under there like on the street	that it's not quite black and white uh I mean I've had drug habits myself that I've carelessly allowed um but I thought what's the point anything I say we just sound like self-justification so well don't listen to me then you know but things that have happened that have taught me a lot it's interesting you say that because one of a lot of the comments on our well on the first video we did a lot of the comments where people saying someone needs to make a movie about this guy but a lot of the other comments were people saying he's so charismatic and likable but he must be a really dangerous person to have been involved with all these worlds for so long and um we've interviewed a couple of drug smugglers and I would say they're the ones that I've met have been the ones that probably are more someone you'd see is traditionally quite an obviously dangerous person you come across as very Charming charismatic roguish where do you see yourself on that scale do you see yourself as someone who was dangerous or do you see yourself as someone who's just moved from area to area as it occurred um kind of like this a dangerous I suppose what most people see that and you know if somebody was a problem for me would I find the best option to have them killed or not but really there always was a kind of	5	4	2	that it's not quite black and white uh I mean I've had drug habits myself that I've carelessly allowed um but I thought what's the point anything I say we just sound like self-justification so well don't listen to me then you know but things that have happened that have taught me a lot	it's interesting you say that because one of a lot of the comments on our well on the first video we did a lot of the comments where people saying someone needs to make a movie about this guy but a lot of the other comments were people saying he's so charismatic and likable but he must be a really dangerous person to have been involved with all these worlds for so long and um we've interviewed a couple of drug smugglers and I would say they're the ones that I've met have been the ones that probably are more someone you'd see is traditionally quite an obviously dangerous person you come across as very Charming charismatic roguish where do you see yourself on that scale do you see yourself as someone who was dangerous or do you see yourself as someone who's just moved from area to area as it occurred um kind of like this a dangerous	2,-3,4	6,4,8	2	-3	4	6	4	8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyZyHHexx7s	4,101	oyZyHHexx7s	2022-12-07 00:00:00	even though I was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off I couldn't get people to go with me I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars [Music] it's great to have you back David obviously we've met before but for anyone who doesn't know who you are for new listeners or new viewers could you give us a brief introduction to what you are famous for well I suppose uh most well known for uh having escaped to prison in Thailand in Bangkok uh the biggest one they have there clong Prim it uh wasn't something I did frivolously I was going to be executed within a couple of weeks so it seemed like a good time to leave okay now um we're going to get into that in a bit more detail but one thing that I remember about you from last time is you're the most incredible talker and we took away the inter the initial interview we've done with you and ended up having to make it into two long episodes because you have a lot of different very colorful uh experiences so do forgive me if I Jimmy us through oh no I can understand that I mean the only place I never talk is in the police station I always like some of my uh work colleagues took um what was it one slap to get them talking but five to shut them up oh okay so let's go right back to the beginning um you were born in the UK and then I believe you emigrated to Australia well um it was all a family thing yes I was born in basewater in London I spent the first few years of my life then uh there but my parents broke up divorced and I went with my mother to Australia with my older sister so I don't have any really very early memories of London apart from some old eight millimeter movie footage of me learning to walk in Hyde Park my dad was waving a five pound note in front of my face and I was making every effort to grab it I continued that behavior for many many years afterwards returned to Australia um finished some schooling um got really contrasting jobs I worked in an adult Agency for a while um but also before that I was got a job in a cinema now it was the and under literally an underground place but it was there that I got introduced to a bunch of crooks um some of the girls there had boyfriends that I used to run down with um strange boxes or bits of money or fur coats and then wink at me bolt out the back door pursued by often policemen undercover ones of course whom we'd misdirect somewhere but that Circle they were um safe crackers and they really didn't trust Outsiders and didn't much like the sound of me but because of I demonstrated a couple of things by being look everybody was really very anti-authority then I I don't mean hostile but for people now they they wouldn't have experienced that in the uh late 60s 70s we were so snotty and arrogant we really thought we were going to change the world and that um the laws were all nothing and the way to change them was to break them well that was the kind of vanity we had so um when I got to know the safe crackers uh better there was something really interesting I mean I didn't like the idea you know stealing things seemed a bit tacky but on the other hand they kind of all needed the money from the from their backgrounds and everything but that wasn't so much the the interest it was the technicalities of getting into these things okay um they used to drill through the top um having anchored it with the drill with clamps and and put a kind of little lens inside a cystoscope used in medicine and watch the the wheels turning around this is the old kind of old-fashioned Hollywood style it was yeah and um behind the safe were three discs and you had to line them up and they'd once they got in they'd take the door with them so that the opposition the safe makers wouldn't know how they'd got in and it was a a constant battle between the manufacturers and them because they've come across new safes which had Special Metals in it that was mixed like a a crunchy nut bar very hard metals very soft ones so the drill bit would slip on them snap and you got a sense that this was almost like a game where um they would try something then try to beat them and they were very loyal to each other um they they never spoke out of school as it were um when I got involved with them I'd only have to if I had trouble I don't have to make one phone call and people would appear out of nowhere and I thought yeah this this is kind of better than the treacherous boys school that I I grew up in and how old were you at this point um 19 years old 19. so were you thinking you were making a conscious decision to move into illegal activities or at that point in time and at that point in the world did it feel like more of a kind of a bit of roguish fun would you say I was drawn to it anyway because it was interesting and um I didn't really have a lot of fear I think sometimes what we do or don't do is depending on how scary it seems yeah agreed um I was born with a low resting heart rate as they say you know if it's below 70 you're a risk taker I don't know why that is when the safe crackers retired they put some of their money into growing little crops of weed and so on but profit margin is is only through importing because like the price difference is cheap in the source countries expensive where it sells so because they couldn't do it they were almost throwing it down like a challenge like we don't know anybody who can do this and I thought well I traveled a lot um I didn't think it was going to be impossible um I thought the odds were in my phone and I looked it up I went to the library and sort of researched it a bit and where were you thinking which country Well they um they were very keen to get some um hashish from India or Nepal or somewhere okay I could see um it's bulky and there's packing problems so um they funded me and off I sailed now the operation my first operation was so deplorably bad I'm barely 20 years old I my cunning plan which involved a big piece of exported Machinery which had weights in it so the weights would come out the cash would go in it would weigh the same being returned and it was a piece of Television equipment or something that went South immediately when I didn't realize that I would have to pay a huge deposit in duty to even bring it in as a demo machine so forget that I ended up in short meeting a guy in a money exchange section of a bank I was there because I ran out and I had to send asking for more from the boys and I met him and he wasn't involved in any of this but he soon became that just he managed to get me six kilos of hash I took the 1952 ancient Grundig radio from his parents house the Shelf there guttered the thing like a fish wrapped it up and he had to get cling film in those days think of this before you travel arriving with a suitcase full of cling film doesn't look good I suppose but uh wedged it in there and then just flew back to Sydney now you can imagine what happened well just before we get on to what happened you know one thing that strikes me is what year was would this have been this was uh 77 77 so it's amazing think that back then if someone was going to India for the first time now they could go on Google Maps they could research it or they could find out who they could find phone numbers contacts they could be put in contact with people before they've even set off whereas you must have at that age at that time been going in slightly blind you know touching down in a foreign country that you didn't know well no contacts was that not quite daunting well what was more um troubling with um how everything would fail and then I'd have to um you know come up with another plan what context somebody I knew um um there were no bank robber who joined the hare krishnas and fled to India right and I had his name and and the ashram in Delhi where where he was was supposed to have been uh I didn't really catch up with him on that trip but okay sure so so then you get back to Australia with your radio that is now full to the brim with and I get stopped you you did get stopped okay I could stop because uh I'm I'm on a British passport um and it's the only trip I've ever done and I'm that age I'd stop me oh fatherly type was at the Customs desk now the the systems were different in those days um it was Sydney too which is very and certainly was very relaxed back then right he opened the suitcase uh there was nothing in there except a pair of socks there's a towel wrapping up this massive radio which he lifted up so it was buckled at the sides little red packets poking out oh it smelled like a hedgehog for a patchouliers okay not much of a disguise um he let me go he uh put it back looked around to make sure that none of his workmates were watching him being so soft um and then turned to me and said you're going back there you're going to do this again [Music] all right you can take your we'll call it a radio shall we get out of here what he thought I realized later was that he didn't want the whole grammar of the day arresting me filling out papers and it would have been a a long time plus I guess being a dad he thought if I he's obviously an idiot you're right if I send him into Gladiator Academy or it wasn't really like that in those days but certainly contact center um the prison what am I doing um well I guess uh he was hopeful you know I whilst out of there must have smuggling me but I experienced then what um I got years later which was kind of a real Downer after you know having got nowhere with The Hare krishnas and and cultivated the shoeshine boys and had my money stolen at Amex uh by some Scallywags in Delhi all sorts of Little Adventures over there in India and nonetheless made it it's kind of like that's all there is to it I I didn't really want to give it to anyone um sort of felt like you didn't have a big moment of no a bit of money that came earlier that's handy right uh I paid back what I owed and settled up for for the next thing so but once that was started when you sorry I interrupted you go oh I was just going to say it to finish it even though they'd funded me the guys were very surprised to see me back but at all at all oh you made it oh because some of them say oh you'll just run away with it uh even if that's what he's doing who knows what he's doing you know and then I could see sitting around you can imagine there's like a table full of well like three guys and then a kind of Darkness shrouded over that room I thought uh it's not valuable enough to kill me you know what what is this mood why did you bring that well that's what you've been talking about yeah you could have loaded that with cane or smack or something you guys we say nothing but terrible things about a class or heavy drugs that don't want to know about it right and I could read then that wait a minute there we're all might be guys together and having fun getting into the safe and whatnot but there was a kind of different it was something a very strong lesson I'd have to be thoughtful about that um there could be times where things didn't work out not necessarily that my safety was at risk I didn't see it that way but I knew that there were Ruthless People right okay yeah so you got an insight into a mindset that had been a bit below the surface it was there I just chose not to see it but um I then went on to you know refine everything and Vary everything and then did you after that first time did you were you still working sort of for them or did you immediately well when you wake up on your own when things um I picked up and there was enough money around out of uh out of strategy rather than just being a nice guy I gave my partners a kind of thank you bonus from the next thing that I did but I did that all myself right so it was almost like a yeah separation and I wanted to go back to the my hippie friends anyway they were a little less it wasn't that they were scary but but that didn't last because they were maybe friends might be all right but they will certainly careless and stupid but from from that point onwards after that initial Journey was that you then into the world of smuggling I thought this won't last forever you only need one setback and that changes it I probably made quite a lot of money and I could have got out but and I should have gotta you know I have couriers a leak from one of the the couriers brought the police to me and here was the problem with it it was at first I scattered now I was married to my first wife then clearly Italian girl her dad had restaurants I grabbed her I had a secret drawer with extra passports in it some money ended up four plane Journeys later in um off the Bahamas had the skipper of a day rent yacht and take me out to an island and nobody had ever been on before it was empty sat there on a towel I thought hmm the level of surveillance I had means it's quite a big operation they're funded and I checked with a lawyer before the bigger the money they spent the more determined they'll be stay away or go back I mean I don't know why would anybody do this uh well I wasn't broke um I didn't have to there was no pressure on me the more I went through the problems the more attractive the whole thing is uh she didn't like it much well again do you think because it was a puzzle to be solved because um arrogance really we've gone from basically someone who was kind of mildly interested in making a group of people meeting a group of um safe hackers to someone who pulled off their first thing and then we've jumped to someone who has people working for them and and now is no longer taking the risk themselves now the police are on to you and you're on this desert island well small island and you're thinking about going back into it was this like a turning point in your life in terms of going you know because the other option I suppose was to go straight but were you just more it was that just not an option for you I'd gone to my lawyer Ralph he said look this is what I picked up because I my travel agent had tipped me to a couple of detectives that come in he traveled again while I was in on the phone okay uh actually they're all innocent really yeah you know and and gave him a long list of names um they wanted travel details for and a telephone number which I traced uh to um a private office building which had been rented by state and federal police they were so distrusting of their own they didn't want to even run this thing from um regular police headquarters my lawyer said well what you sure it's you said Ralph look at the list of names there's 30 there I'm 26 of them passports are a lot easier to get back then than there now so you had 26 aliases that you were traveling on yeah right okay um and I described where they were he said David they are funded well they're not bear this in mind but although I what they won't get me with anything they're funded you think they're going to walk away after a year and say oh sorry boss you spend a million dollars and uh nothing doing they don't work like that but this is how stubborn I was I thought because he said the only thing you can do is disappear for at least a couple of years and then you can come back if that's what you want and of course I had justifications for it I thought okay I'll I'll build up a bit more money and then I'll disappear but um it was only after things went terribly badly that I realized I shouldn't play like this anymore what it was they um because the challenge just kept coming so now so did you go back to Australia I went back to Australia and and when I retired within three months right but they weren't waiting for you to arrest you or no no they wanted they wanted something solid okay [Music] um I won't go into the long machinations of it all but um somebody we knew uh was getting things from a Thai Courier and he got arrested he sold us out to the police so that that The Courier would now come to us and I always have some solid evidence right he would bring things but we got away with that because that was another challenge but the police got tired of all this arrested me no drugs of course so it was a difficult case the worst kind of case is that where there's no solid evidence and in a way it's better to go to court where you've got a Smoking Gun and a dead body on the ground because at least you know where you are but where there's nothing tangible and it's conspiracies and this was a huge trial six months long what is that 119 Witnesses 6 000 pages of uh telephone intercept massive thing won't made it worse too and I think this was um would change things for me um the pressure was put on for confessions but it'd be silly to confess and you can't confess on somebody else's behalf can you that's not nice um lots of the family were arrested even my mother was taken and it went oh wow just to put pressure on uh did she know what you did oh she had an idea right okay I mean I used to have bin liners full of money I'd leave behind the fridge yeah you don't get that in the cinema do you not done not a very good day you know uh because they arrested so many people now when they arrested our wives and my business partner Michael his wife just had a baby it was we had to do a deal here I didn't want to but I was going to say I said to Michael look I know you don't like it but we'll play to it get the girls out of trouble we'll Escape that's a good challenge that way [Music] um but unfortunately um the intelligence section put an arsonist Informer in with the girls to get some information her fire was lit uh burnt down the women's prison and my wife and my business partner's wife was were killed uh that's awful and so the Informer that they put in there yeah why did they pick an arsonist for Daniel writer name was I don't know why I remember that after 40 years God so that's quite a big that was oh and and just uh to make things worse the story put about town to scare the careers into talking because they wouldn't speak was that we'd we were killing off all the witnesses and starting with our own family where does that come from um we ended up in a super max prison nightmarish electronic zoo with two inch glass and electronic doors and insane inmates held 48 death rate 27 people a year died in that little supermax going to court in Chains with a SWAT team taking it it was so so much Michael fell to pieces he was just a wreck he didn't make it uh he survived the jail but died when he got out the only way I could survive all of that was to strip away everything I you know I found myself in the supermax concrete everything's concrete the bed everything there's no everything's still just with the tape player from my lure listening to the the tapes the bug tapes the microphones in my house I could play back my life for the last six months clearly you're moving from room to room taking telephone calls she was crying about something I didn't know what I never know and David that's gone immerse yourself in the worst that they have you will not survive this otherwise trial sort of went not so good acquitted of most things but convicted enough 10 years difficult imprisonment but I the only way I could deal with it was to say did I want revenge that was more my fault I brought this about I got her in there I mean a family of a very kind to me about it considering I wouldn't be but it doesn't matter in Chains and super Mech strip it all away it is nothing everyone is a potential enemy everything it just nothing mattered win the day win the night I mean this is a place we had to fill in a book to get some toilet paper the showers were in front of them in a glass box um if you went on a visit they'd zip you up and lock you in a suit so you had no pockets there was after that and her death I felt like there was nothing that could affect me you're wrong about these things you know we're human but I got out and they were there they even visited me to say we'll be on you when you get out the police yeah we enjoyed the old days didn't you yeah I said pretending you know and just to make the point that they were there when I got out um I I'd done a whole lot of Woodwork in the prison in the last place I was at carving intricate things making these really great trick Chinese boxes with beeswax they intercepted the van that was taking it from the prison back to my house and smashed it all to pieces I put it in a box just to say don't think that we will never be here we can do what we want so I decided to leave the country I was um how old am I by then let's work it out yeah uh I started all this Mischief when I was about 18 got arrested at 22. 23 uh um 16 years 17 years either under surveillance or in bad prisons got out and I'm under surveillance again um so how old so you're number 37 about 37. so that's already you know that's a big chunk of Life there but you've lost quite a lot of it to prison or surveillance well at no point now were you like okay and I wasn't a normal person uh really when I got out because of the experience of prison I'd already stripped most of Myself Away to deal with the death of the Superman yeah and and watching people be burnt to death in the place which was frequent somebody had contact glue pulled all over him and then satellite oh God Gods came in and the other one's standing there with a Tire swinging it around to make sure to let him burn let him burn Jesus Barry's name was testicles swollen like apples but black okay he died two hours later in hospital anyway um that was regular account to deal with that I'd already strip things away so when I got a little apartment when I got out and my mother had arranged things for me when they were there when they'd leave rude messages on my answer machine when they'd be behind me everywhere I thought all right I remember this David it never ends if you want to survive go back to the way you were you know in in the super max Anything Can Happen anytime but I didn't want to live like that um I got a fresh passport and most elaborate means um I could spend a week explaining how that came into existence but I went to Thailand to pick up some money I had three days there it was just before Christmas I left at that time on purpose so that they maybe I thought maybe it's their weak point that they want to have families in their life just at Christmas I've parked my mum's car and and left the keys somewhere for her nobody knew were you not meant to leave the country no no no licenses oh I see we're just going to take a minute here to talk about a sponsor of this show which is manscaped we were sent a package to try out by manscaped but Conor one of our producers is already a fan of the brand I believe yeah absolutely I've been using manscape for a little while now and Ben as you know it's that time of year people start asking you what you want for Christmas and I would say that a great gift for a man especially one that might have everything is the manscape performance package 4.0 so what's in that so you get the lawnmower 4.0 electric trimmer you get some anti-chafe boxer shorts which I can vouch for as well as a couple of other grooming products that smell great fantastic well it sounds like a five-star review from uconnor absolutely so Connor you were talking about the performance package there's loads of other great gift ideas such as the hygiene bundle all available at manscape.com com and all gifts that men will genuinely love to receive this Christmas if you are a listener of this podcast you get 20 off and free shipping all you have to do is go to manscape.com and use the code minutes that's manscape.com m-i-n-u-t-e-s minutes um so why are we doing that the risk is it worth it I didn't want to play anymore right I wanted to uh see if I could have a something resembling like a a real life just to find some corner of the world plan was to to return to London and oh so you were leaving forever I'm leaving forever okay I see nobody knew it um I had a couple of hundred thousand in Thailand I thought um which I returned to pick up um now I suppose people say this Crooks always say this most unusual circumstances led to my arrest well they were but then again they always are aren't they or you wouldn't be telling the story or you wouldn't have been arrested but um the USDA was involved lots of people lots of players uh no real drugs are found uh they did an airport sweep and listed me up for like an ounce of something and a false passport or two the money I had just disappeared into pockets but those when I arrived there I felt so free I knew this identity was good I just like floating on air really I slipped out of my protective mode you know that when we stick to the plan and all right you don't want to leave I should have even stayed there for six months just get some sensible view of the world but I I didn't uh and as I went to the airport I could see they were all around me and I melted back into the crowd and disappeared again I thought well that serves me right for changing that attitude I'd had from back in super max and I just glaze over concentrate on the details which I needed to do because when I went to make a phone call later at the travel agency uh waiting it was so depressing being thrown into the Thai prison and I had some idea what they'd be like um people I'd known had been arrested there I knew this much it never won a case you never get out well you get out and what were they arresting you for was it the the uh the passport um what did the the the money wasn't I mean what did they leave 4 000 or something like that right and there are airports we put um I saw the guy walking in with it in a plastic bag you know whatever people throw on the floor before they go through security there was a bit of hash this usual bits of weed but what they really wanted was um this 25 grams of heroin because that would finish me off a policeman um Australian one said was that yours yeah yeah sure it was he said I didn't think so what would you be carrying around that for I mean if it was 10 kilos I might understand but but that was enough the death penalty and was it yours no no no so where where would that come from if you do they do a sweep every afternoon at five o'clock they get tons of it right I get you know nervous passengers go up and then they change their minds and they throw it in the toilet too and were they just did do you think they believed it was yours or do you think they were just going this is we need to give him this bit no no I think they were using it hoping to that would be good to hold and maybe they could get something else find out what I was up to who I was seeing because I had met um somebody who's whose uncle was a big player right so there was there was I think they were optimistic there might be more Camp come out of it but but there wasn't but what difference did it make and I wasn't really worried about um those drugs or the death penalty I wanted to die anyway frankly my first escape plans from there had this I imagine getting out to find the Privacy to kill myself right I wanted to go to the dusa Tony Hotel I knew Which floor and where to get onto the roof I'd taken photographs from there many years before um they were you simply couldn't get a moment's piece dormitories with 150 guys in them screaming all night um we can't even take a crap in peace in the Thai prison We're Not Afraid though of what killing myself well no I mean I don't know being brutalized by the guards or the inmates so well I knew enough about Thailand to to know that it was a little more comic than than bad there were very bad things happen they used to um they've beaten people a couple of people get beaten to death every day there but it's a very big prison we have to get that in proportion I only wish they wouldn't use the food trolley to take the dead bodies out because um you know they don't clean them up um and could you speak the language or were you quite it was a quite different communication uh not really uh and the few languages that uh pitch up in my travels I always found that even if you know them it's better to pretend you don't okay um because they'll talk about you behind your back you know certainly didn't live it on there was I I just couldn't see any point I'd gone to such elaborate precautions on this trip um it just shouldn't have happened and I even got away from the airport and still it happened oh all that confidence that I'll figure a way out I didn't care anymore I just had enough um and I remember seeing an old guy there if you had to go to court they put change on you and um you'd line up on the ground now this old guy I was looking at him because I don't know why a big soundtrack went past he had the presence of mind to push his head under that sand truck and oh it twisted it around popped like a watermelon being dropped on the ground oh my God guys very annoyed told the trustees to get that thing away out of sight was that nice thing called it I thought you Brave bastard you yeah you've got the guts to do that was it not quite a disturbing thing to witness no it was shocking because if you haven't seen it kind of thing up close and I happen to be looking um it was uh but that that's how I felt about it but I was saved In The End by a con man and people say a lot of bad things about economy they do yes they do and they uh you can't be trusted uh they are rottenness and they will cheat you just because they're the Scorpion that's in their nature uh but sometimes they're just what you need and this rather smooth um Bostonian American um who spoke Thai and really knew his way around and I you know I thought the somewhere in this huge prison there'd be an enclave of rich and corrupt foreigners with loads of money and there'd be luxuries it wasn't there was nobody of any importance in there you know a couple of big sacrifices had been made but um a couple of very rich policemen who were in the hospital in intensive care but other than that it was it was just um the people who reached the absolute bottom Drifters in Asia who did run after run and then got sacrificed to the machine they'd get about four jobs a big Syndicate there operating careers had run four times bang they'd shot them to the police they'd be gone oh God they will turn told the same story and it was Joe it was this guest house it was such and such identical and um and and at this point had you been sentenced to death had you received oh no no no I I was trying to avoid that yeah once I came to my senses because the the Boston con had so many wonderful schemes medical thing to get me bail and know some way of a escape with a go to court I get snatched from there I had villains come over and and scope out the court too because there was a way I thought of getting out of there from the lift that took you up to the the building uh snatched from the middle as you go down changed into a different set of clothes but they all got scared thing about um some of our most loved uh and fearless villains they're pretty good in the local manner but you throw them into a place like that where people carry machine guns and shoot at will just for the hell of it not so confident they like the upper edge of being snakes um so I couldn't convince anybody to really help and it was just as well um and two and a half years passed there in this prison it's a long time it was I sort of perked up a little bit pulled myself together started exercising um got a couple of ATM cards over hadn't my favorite god um he was in charge of the the building bought myself a room renovated um so you had you bought a room within the prison that was just for you rented that's rented right you know and is that an official thing that you're allowed to do right there are places in the world where it's official right but you had an influx of money that you could pay for special treats you could survive there on um less than 500 pounds a month and be king oh wow was this the 70s or the 80s now by the way we're into um 90 495 19 the 495 because what's reported about you is that during the 80s you were a multi-millionaire um is that accurate um now what do we call a multi-millionaires a young halfway with a million and a quarter on a glass coffee table and looks around the living room and thinks I've got to get a sofa one of these days um oh goes to the car auctions in the morning buys a big yank tank with a 427 Chevy engine in it um drives it around makes his own car parking spaces you know we're smashing the front in backing the other one pushing the other cars out of the way um oh stoned off my head most of the time uh if I wasn't stunned enough I'd take a few mandracks just to colludes icing on the cake um so I didn't take care of the money and the money didn't take care of me so I guess I'm like the reason I the reason I asked was because it must have been quite a stark change going from a very rich existence to basically somewhere where you basically couldn't pay for anything initially and it was a very poor existence but I guess from what you're saying there it's not like you felt like you were Rich at the time um I've made that contrast a few times when I had my first big arrest I couldn't as I was in a cold near lightless cell of blue stone and horse hair mattress about two inches thick and wrecking a piss I would think back to the night before when I had my important to tell in huge bed and Irish linen sheets and swimming pool out there and um and we had to kind of shake off the contrast but that rubber banding must must have been hard to take because it's you're going from basically the aspiration of almost everyone where you're talking about just buying cars outright and having a swimming pool to a piss stinking bed you know it must be it was you know it's odd thing about it was providing I could see a way out a work a way out I didn't so much mind oh okay um I really trained myself to expect my whatever world I built up and and this happened several times I've done it five times had a new identity New Life new surroundings even new people and dang they're gone and every time it got worse um and there was even Thailand was desperately important because even though it was quite comfortable there I was going to get executed they said they were going to make an example of a Westerner and I think I was it um you know I was somebody that nobody minded killing um so so I had to there's a time limit there yeah there's nothing like the prospect of being executed by a machine gun which is the way they did it God is that what it would have been wow yeah you know oh they'd have three guards all with a bit of string on the trigger and they'd all pull it once so that none of them could be condemned in the Buddhist sense of sin oh they don't even actually right I see it caused the bullet that finished you off oh I see so you're in the Thai prison you've been sentenced to uh rather unpleasant death penalty um how did you start coming up with this famous plan for escaping um desperation it was the last plan that looked like it was going to work um there were probably about 20 plans considered um everything from being the prison held I've since found out it holds 22 000 people oh my God in 10 sub prisons uh there's a women's section there's a young offenders there's a special reminder a drug unit all of that um just a wild place it has everything it even had a prisoner-run shop where you could extract you could borrow money against your account and cash anyway um one of the plans involved being welded into a VW Combi van in the prisons Auto Workshop which would be picked up early Monday morning and I'd be driven out and that another one was um there were several courtroom ones and you couldn't just pay your way out no no it's just you could pay to have a mobile phone which in those days was a rare thing but they were around um you could pay for a bottle of clong uh whiskey you could pay I'm sure you could pay to get a a girl in your room if you could work out what a room was that a whole section full of ladyboys there and got a building full of them they used to open it up on Saturdays so um you could pay for anything but not to leave they couldn't cover that and they couldn't trust each other you would need 25 30 different guards paid off and and the gods of visitors I mean too many guides no that wouldn't work and they looked at it as a kind of betrayal only if I saw two escapes attempts there one group of uh straight kids and a Singaporean got out of their cell incredibly turned themselves into the sleeping God when they'd all lied to each other about what they didn't have you know the ropes and ways out because they're it was so outraged that they'd spoiled the guys jobs they beat them to death slowly tortured them over three months to death having put them in little code lockers the soy they call them drag them out in elephant chains every day and batter them senseless uh internal bleeding usually did it um look I've got a bowl of rice and a painting to poo in that was it um even the water was it was just too horrible so if you get caught you're finished you cannot get caught that's what put most people off even my Swedish friends Sten the Viking he backed out at the last minute I couldn't get people to go with me all the other plants had fallen to bits because they depended on other people I had to go out the old-fashioned way which was um cut my way out of the cell bars and I needed equipment for that and here's a really important point I guess as bad as this world is you've got to try to find good people if you ask somebody if you asked your friend yeah and and you're finished you'll manage to get a phone call and say friend it's been here um I need you to get um I don't know four hacksaw blades and cut them into the dowel rods of a of a poster and then paint it all up and send it in a huge package with this that cable ties gaffer tape but disguise all that how many people are going to do it turn around wouldn't believe it Ben called me what his neck yeah he's screwed but anyway he wouldn't believe but he wants me to do this that now people don't do it but Michael on the other hand our business partner wouldn't even let me explain he hadn't heard from me in 18 months he said David don't explain I'm sure we could get cut off tell me the important part now where do I have to be and what do I have to bring no that's a friend um and so I've always tried to do the same for the others that I've known like that um but um I did get the equipment together that I needed and everything um about escapes from a big prison is not like your hope it's going to be you know I turned it out walked around the streets and it had streets inside it um and timed it with my trusty Casio and it was so I knew roughly how long it would take to get me but the night's a different world I'm a prisoner I'm only used to noise during the day even the fan chopping around in the Cell at night it's so quiet everything I did squeaked and rattled and twisted I came across a panel that had to be a nail had to come out and that and they'll protest it and scream their wrench out of the way it took um uh seven or eight worlds uh sorry seven or eight walls to cross over I say worlds because they really were every building was a different thing and I got lost and I went past the terminal AIDS Ward that building hundreds of guys all die and I could smell it before I got there because this necrotic Rotting Flesh and I couldn't resist looking in I'm carrying this huge long ladder made out of bamboo poles and fake picture frames gaffer taped along the center [Music] um and I looked up and I saw all these little faces in the Moonlight wrapped in so much pain and despair they didn't have the energy to cry out to the guards if they'd been in any other prisoners they would have the trustees there were absolute scum of the earth had whistled little uniforms sell the drugs one day and the rest of the guys for it the next all of that um and it was only by um well I only got to the outer wall by Dawn and if somebody had been with me I wouldn't have made it either you wouldn't have no imagine I've taken all night to get there and at each point where this something was unexpected I've had to dream up something and I get a little basic toolkit and I sometimes I'd have to sacrifice part of my ladder to make a hook to pull down barbed wire and the technique for using the thing was awkward you had to prop it walk up drop down the other side so you're twisting over the walls like that manual is entirely barbed wire so I had to go underneath it covered in mud the the last one was really too high and there was a Mars bar Creek the the moat that ran around I did you know if I was with somebody else we'd be arguing wouldn't we oh Spa Creek oh it was full of turds bombing around it was caught out of the sewer yeah you did ask um illustrative okay we're just gonna take a quick break from the show to talk about a sponsor of this episode better help better help is an online Counseling Service which connects people to therapists and counselors I'm joined by one of our producers bryony is counseling something you've had experience with do you know what it's interesting because when I was growing up the same kind of challenges in life would happen but people wouldn't necessarily go to therapy or talk about therapy and I feel like since uh maybe my late teens early 20s people are starting to go to therapy and talking about it and I have definitely used it in my life and it's been massively beneficial same and do you because I think one of the things that people often mistake they think it's just for big things yeah but what's the other experience of that thing I think life always throws you know small challenges and large challenges and sometimes the big things need talking about but actually you know starting a new school or starting a new job can rile up that same level of anxiety and it's just really helpful to be able to talk to someone about it who is completely impartial not involved in your life and just kind of a safe space I guess to just say whatever you want to say you completely agree as the world's largest therapy service better help as much 3 million people with professionally licensed and vetted therapists available 100 online plus it's affordable just fill out a brief questionnaire to match with a therapist if things aren't clicking you can easily switch to a new therapist anytime it couldn't be simpler no waiting rooms no traffic no endless searching for the right therapist learn more and save 10 of your first month at betterhelp.com minutes with that's betterhelp help help.com minutes with um now there was one way of oh Beyond marsburg create this a foot and a half of land before this huge huge wall you've got to get a ladder that's too heavy to carry too imbalanced to do anything with but you've got a bit of rope how do you get it to the other side of Mars bar which has all got tangled barb wire in that so it'll catch get it in place and up against the wall when you've got no ground to to walk on now there is a way and uh I guess people have to listen to me describe it either to you or in my book okay fine but too long to tell here sure but um I could see the glow of dawn as I got to the top which had electricity running through it too just to make it the top of the wall dead yeah yeah wow but um my friend who um was in there a bit of a technician is to belong to the anarchist Society in in Britain how would you belong to a society that has rules when you anyway putting that aside he did tell me that it would only be 240 volts but to be careful um and just managed to get over that and because the original plan was to um oh there was an outer moat beyond that of 20 meters I had my clothes ready to go into a plastic bag swim the moat but just as well I didn't um because all it turned out all the guards houses were over the other side of that moat this would not be a place to go but I cleaned myself up threw some clothes on and I one of the jobs that I didn't do but I was supposed to be doing was working in the Umbrella Factory so I paid a local boy to do it um I've got a pop-up umbrella from there I thought you know you really get a perspective about I want to just simple discrimination but being an outsider a foreigner the way sometimes people feel picked upon you know we were called the white trash and we were in in Chains and everything so I knew I had to cover my face in the popular did it and I managed to get to a place where a passport was hidden and to the airport and still had a working ATM card to get me out of the country into Singapore so did you end up with the umbrella did you walk out the front gate yeah I did I had some long trousers on now in their prisoners are not allowed to wear them so I had some khaki pants I thought they might as I walked around the the narrow path to the front gate it's still mote but a little Bridge I thought another figure it's a guard arriving late and sneaking in and I did I felt like Ripley an alien uh looking at thinking lucky lucky this is where it all ends doesn't it and I'm thinking that every moment and looking up and there was just enough light rain to justify the umbrella yeah I would learn later that was actually the not a rain from the gods but the spittle of their laughter because they had worse things in mind for me later on I mean it's so it's you know how many people are you aware how many people had escaped from that prison up to that point was it some every year or was it very infrequent none um the ties sometimes ran away when they were doing the gardens in Chains outside but Escape From Within um I'd known of in 20 years people could recall two attempts no foreigners um and they didn't trust the foreigners that's why they put you on the third floor right quite rightly yes and and how long had it taken you from like the beginning of the uh I started cutting at um 11 45 I paid a lot to get a light switch in there normally the lights are on all the time um okay and I said to my favorite guard oh yeah Ponting or whatever his name was I can't sleep with that thing I'll put a light switch in um um now they didn't say it as corruption or bribe taking they thought I'm doing this nice guy a favor and I'll be lucky because of it that's a very big thing over there you know if I get caught I'm unlucky then so they can batter me to death I mean sure it's kind of self-justifies any action that a human being might take so he started cutting around eight for 11 45 11 45 okay it's quite close through one bar by two in the morning oh God stencia listen we'll go on the next note I looked around and Kevin the American from Hawaii I didn't even know this was happening uh Mirage the Indian I know he's going to talk the next morning he was kakaria LA pantaloni right in the cell never mind holding out and not saying anything he would have it would have been finished I never would have made it and I guess I could have seen the missing bars potentially but I learned later on I actually caught up with somebody who was in there Scottish guy um he was there for selling ecstasy to the Two well-off Sons and Daughters of wealthy policemen anyway um he remembers they the guards couldn't figure that I'd left oh um he said David they ran around the the prison calling out your name it was Daniel Westlake while I was there Daniel Daniel they okay that somebody drew their attention to the cut bar in there yeah my Scottish friend said they the gods wanted they thought that okay he's got out he's angry about something uh Daniel but he's not actually he'll never get out he couldn't get it they never found the the ladder down the front wall until much much later so for um uh uh only one of them said oh we better check the airport they sent a couple of guys down there um just a little bit late and you were gone by then only just and remember man you've got a passport from a Chinese connection that you barely know but kind of like the cut of his jib but are you gonna put your life on the line on that and at every moment you're handing it over you know like the look of it yeah they don't like the look of it they're typing it up and you're thinking they got onto the computer have they done that bit uh have they entered my arrival was this I knew it was freshly stolen or sold off was only a few weeks old uh I mean not new was had only gone missing a few weeks earlier so it was still good but very nerve-wracking and I didn't have a photo I had to use my old um uh radio operators license that had a photograph in it to get reproduced into this thing so it was a bit grainy um and even on the plane it was delay and takeoff oh God and a mumbling Captain oh sorry um we we have a thing with one passenger I just asked what thing exactly soon enough thwomp doors to manual oh but I've got an hour you know looking at this passport I don't like it get to Singapore but I make it through so you got to Singapore yeah but you did end up going back to prison not a Thai prison but a different prison he's suggesting uh I did something wrong well I'm hoping you're going to tell me um no well okay uh I didn't stay in Singapore long because um I sat there in the hotel room unable to digest food not prepared by my own cook sure I in the hotel room in Singapore I realized you could work out who had left that day if they'd flown my air by simply going to the airport and children you work it out yourselves at home you check everybody who's left separate the foreigners hmm go a step further let's keep the Canadian and American the British the Australian New Zealand all the English-speaking passport Society um just to you know reduce the numbers take those names check with the embassies any of these names belong to lost or stolen passports that have been reported yeah five of them because that's Bangkok you know not the only Mischief maker there but nonetheless um they probably knew I could be who was I Charles McClintock hmm sorry Charles I had to borrow your passport but it was an essential cause but you're not wanted anymore of course are you no but I did get an unwelcome knock at the door some years ago uh by the police who um would it be to go excuse me Westminster Court known for the terrorist cases extradition or parking fights wow I'd lift the car anywhere lately so it was going to be one of the other two and it was extradition to Thailand I fought that case for two years and um it was difficult um but managed to effectively win in the end so the ties have dropped that one and I can't be taken back there I'm not wanted anywhere um I can nobody can do what they want but um I I'm not I haven't got anything pending I'm not in business I'm a bit cautious I even got sent something in the the mail a few years ago and I thought it was some gift from some halfway ambitious wombat in in Pakistan sending me a bit of dope thinking oh yeah there's a gift you might like that connection made no I mean people had my address all around the world ever since Danny Dyer um it turned out to be more complicated than that but um very dangerous for me to walk into a courtroom so I don't even imagine you're me and knock at the door oh here's something for you Ben you don't like the look of it you refuse it you're in court no matter why did you refuse that was it your name no you was up The Jig was up proof ladies and gentlemen oh you accept it ah you accepted it proof ladies and gentlemen wife saying to me Jeanette and whom I met in Pakistan years ago and she was there to fish out her husband on a two-ton hash deal he didn't make it anyway um she said throw the thing away I'm thinking in court again ladies and gentlemen he threw the stuff away I can't win so very cautious about all that kind of stuff um fair enough but I take it you won't be going for a holiday to Thailand anytime soon I didn't think so okay so how many do you know off the top of your head of your life how many years of your life have you spent in prison ultimately I did add it up once I'm 66 now and I suppose I've spent um but 22 years the thing that occurs to me and I met you before and I thought the same thing is like you obviously extremely intelligent extremely resourceful it can't be well but well anyway but do you regret the choices you made in terms of do you see those 22 years in prison as something you had no control over it's just the way the dice rolled or do you see them as a mistake on your part um worse than a mistake mistake suggest you didn't know uh where you were going wrong I was taking those steps into uh of a precipice that I'd defied there is no gravity I said I said I will work out something before I hit the ground um when I was It was kind of in stages when I was young it was just arrogance and and showing off and later on when everything was destroyed it was kind of I'd scraped away all of my life and would just go on um then in the third stage it was escaping away from places rebuilding up and being weakened every time it was taken away again um and do I regret it yeah I'm sure I um no you know some people say oh yeah but David just smuggled everything on Earth you scumbag you you know um think of the lives you've destroyed and the people you've heard ah and I go to start to explain that it's not quite black and white uh I mean I've had drug habits myself that I've carelessly allowed um but I thought what's the point anything I say we just sound like self-justification so well don't listen to me then you know but things that have happened that have taught me a lot it's interesting you say that because one of a lot of the comments on our well on the first video we did a lot of the comments where people saying someone needs to make a movie about this guy but a lot of the other comments were people saying he's so charismatic and likable but he must be a really dangerous person to have been involved with all these worlds for so long and um we've interviewed a couple of drug smugglers and I would say they're the ones that I've met have been the ones that probably are more someone you'd see is traditionally quite an obviously dangerous person you come across as very Charming charismatic roguish where do you see yourself on that scale do you see yourself as someone who was dangerous or do you see yourself as someone who's just moved from area to area as it occurred um kind of like this a dangerous I suppose what most people see that and you know if somebody was a problem for me would I find the best option to have them killed or not but really there always was a kind of Vestige of that's a failure if you can't think of anything better than to have them killed then then then what are you doing there's a million clever ways of solving your problems and that besides which there's always going to be people you can't kill everybody um not only that who killed the killers that you've got to do the killing you know you know they always say that about the quiet ones and all of that but it was the people who bothered to put up a smoke screen um they're establishing a um later Alibi a courtroom personality but I met him he didn't seem bothered by all of that why would he have him killed and those are the ones that um seem to be more dangerous and if I was such a dangerous person like that I certainly been absolute fool to break from that mold and say otherwise wouldn't it very true David it's great to see you again thank you so much for coming in always a pleasure yeah and I've Got a Feeling we'll be seeing you again at some point as well it's possible it does may cross thank you I'll be like oh my God they're in my head they they know they know that was a song and so they put that song on the radio and it's all everything revolves around me or you know and this happened well sometimes happens today you know I'm I'm thinking of someone in my head someone under there like on the street	Vestige of that's a failure if you can't think of anything better than to have them killed then then then what are you doing there's a million clever ways of solving your problems and that besides which there's always going to be people you can't kill everybody um not only that who killed the killers that you've got to do the killing you know you know they always say that about the quiet ones and all of that but it was the people who bothered to put up a smoke screen um they're establishing a um later Alibi a courtroom personality but I met him he didn't seem bothered by all of that why would he have him killed and those are the ones that um seem to be more dangerous and if I was such a dangerous person like that I certainly been absolute fool to break from that mold and say otherwise wouldn't it very true David it's great to see you again thank you so much for coming in always a pleasure yeah and I've Got a Feeling we'll be seeing you again at some point as well it's possible it does may cross thank you I'll be like oh my God they're in my head they they know they know that was a song and so they put that song on the radio and it's all everything revolves around me or you know and this happened well sometimes happens today you know I'm I'm thinking of	-2	6	4	Vestige of that's a failure if you can't think of anything better than to have them killed then then then what are you doing there's a million clever ways of solving your problems and that besides which there's always going to be people you can't kill everybody um not only that who killed the killers that you've got to do the killing you know you know they always say that about the quiet ones and all of that but it was the people who bothered to put up a smoke screen um they're establishing a um later Alibi a courtroom personality but I met him he didn't seem bothered by all of that why would he have him killed and those are the ones that um seem to be more dangerous and if I was such a dangerous person like that I certainly been absolute fool to break from that mold and say otherwise wouldn't it very true	yeah and I've Got a Feeling we'll be seeing you again at some point as well it's possible it does may cross thank you	0,6,8	8,2,4	0	6	8	8	2	4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPQBcb9wf8Q	4,056	mPQBcb9wf8Q	2023-03-27 00:00:00	you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you're wasting your time the best-selling author and host the number one Health and Wellness podcast on purpose with Jay Shetty what are the signs that someone deeply loves you because I feel like we live in this world where we're always wondering do they love me do they like me do they really like me are they really into me how do you know when you deeply love someone and when someone deeply loves you how do you even know so I'm gonna start with an answer that people probably won't expect to me the first key is do you truly love them because look at it like this to me a lot of people get caught up in infatuation um they have unhealthy attachments they have different motivations to why they decided this is the person that I want and that can make them feel like they're in love but to me true love flows both ways it's not a one-sided thing so when you can say I I'm not into them like that if we look deep into that situation I can almost guarantee what we'll find is infatuation attachment something else but when you can say no I feel it too I'm deeply in love with them I think that's your first key because without that nothing else matters because a lot of people are choosing Partners based off of what they love me so much so I assume it's safe here and this is a good choice to make but the safe choice is usually the wrong choice and a lot of these people select this individual thinking everything's going to be okay but because you're not really into them you can never be what they need and they were never truly what you needed which is why you never even got to that level with them so to choose them without first evaluating do you truly love them would not be wise yeah that's that's a great question and I think people struggle with that question too because I think we think of love as so many different things wrapped into one for example I could think I love someone because of how they treat me I could think I love someone because they have one quality that I really wish I had or I could love someone because I think that they're out of my league and they give me a bit of attention yeah and so what we think is love is so complex and so wide that we never stop to ask ourselves like what does love mean like what's the definition of love like how do I Define love so how do you define love and how do you encourage other people to create their definitions of Love well for me first off is always God is love and then when we take it from there love is about kindness compassion patience understanding a willingness to be selfless important to that individual but I think what's also important for people to understand is when we're trying to apply it to romantic relationships we have to understand that there's other ingredients that are necessary before we can move forward so you could love someone dearly but if they are not emotionally ready because maybe they haven't healed from their past maybe there's still some things that need to work out in their life then it wouldn't be time to move forward in a relationship with them and we have this bad habit of the minute we feel like there's love there we want to move forward exactly and as you mentioned we can get caught up sometimes in but we love them because of what they do for us but what are you prepared to do for them love is about giving all right so we have to ask ourselves okay do we know what their needs are are we willing to fulfill those needs because if not maybe this wasn't love maybe it just felt good in the moment maybe you got caught up in the hype and that's okay it happens to almost all of us if not all of us at some point in life but we have to just be real very clear with ourselves about what's really driving the intention right now but I think all those things I mentioned is what encompasses love of and that's like the foundation of it and then from there we have to look at some other things to see how we can move forward so many times like you you convince yourself something's love and what I find really interesting is that so many people fall in love too fast and no one wants to go for the slow patient understanding love which is what love requires you just said love is kind love is patient love is understanding those things take time I think those things take time to nurture and to to make sure that we're doing it correctly for each other so it's about learning each other's Love Languages and how we make it work in within that Dynamic I think also because so many people are not used to dealing with emotions at on that level being that vulnerable people mishandle it all right so it takes time for us to get to a place so we understand how to manage this and work through this however I think that I'm a huge believer in connection and I believe connection is like your spirit recognizing its match and it's very instant when you speak to couples who said they experience a connection they'll tell you first conversation first time meeting first date first week it was pretty fast so to me the the recognizing of something deeper being here can happen very quickly but how we now cultivate that and how we move forward is where we need to take our time and make sure we're not rushing and overlooking certain important issues that need to be discussed and addressed first to me it's the understanding of chemistry versus compatibility and the idea that there needs to be a spark there needs to be a connection that I feel with someone like you're saying on a deeper level but I find that I find that most people are not Adept and knowing whether the connection they feel with someone is deeper or physical yeah like I would say that it's easy to it you can often feel a spark with if you meet a lot of people you can feel a spot with a lot of people but that doesn't mean that they're the right person to build a relationship absolutely right yes so it's connection to me is a very rare occurrence right yes so I feel that people who've actually experienced it they can tell you maybe once in their life if you're lucky two times maybe all right but it's not this thing that happens with everybody whereas chemistry uh feeling of spark these things can happen with a lot of different people yeah so I do think there's there's this education that's needed to understand how we differentiate these things so that we don't confuse them because I see a lot of people take that chemistry and think oh this is it this is the one it's like but you had chemistry with the last five people why is this one the one and not them so I do think we have to be careful with that yeah I think so so we're on the same page there's three things there's connection on the deeper level there's chemistry which is like the spark on a more superficial level and then there's compatibility which is like what makes get lost and I can relate to that with my wife I definitely felt so I I'm one of those people who I kind of knew from the first few moments when I met my wife before she was my wife was like I was like yeah this is my person like I felt that way yeah for sure I felt that connection and there was chemistry there too but it had to be turned into compatibility in order to create a long lasting relationship we've been together for 10 years we're still learning building going through everything but that was a big part of it so that I can get behind is do you see it that way too or is there something different in so how do you see it believe it or not I used to make compatibility the least important but that was because I was looking at it the wrong way once I kind of looked at the definition again and compatibility is about two people coexisting in harmony yeah then I was like okay no you you have to have that I just I got caught up more so in like let's say a dating site says okay we're gonna decide who's compatible so I view compatible as like an on the paper it looks good it's supposed to match but you can have a lot of people who are supposed to be compatible and it doesn't work absolutely so I think that it's compatibility is that add-on once we have the connection and the chemistry now we have to create that Harmony which is the compatibility yes I agree with you and and it is interesting how that word compatibility is thrown around and you're so right that compatibility on paper doesn't mean compatibility in real life exactly and to me compatibility really has another word inside of it which is like adaptability and that deeper understanding of an individual where you know how much you're willing to adapt around certain parts of the relationship but we'll get to that I think a lot of people like you know and and that's where we got into this conversation around what is slow a lot of people are waiting to feel like is this person wasting my time are they the one and so they don't have a deeper connection maybe they had that spark of chemistry and now that's kind of subsided how do you know if someone's wasting your time how do you know if you're letting yourself be used or wasted in that way so to me again I think it always starts with self and you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you because just use an example let's say you're a woman and the only reason why you're holding on to this guy is because he's a nice guy you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you figure let me try to make it work you're wasting your time this is where you're setting yourself up for disaster every single time so if it's not born out of a true connection love a genuine desire you really like this individual of course there's always things we have to work through but is the foundation strong enough for us to say okay we can make something special here and I think once we are honest with ourselves that kind of helps answer the question because sometimes we get so caught up trying to animal lies the other individual that is like we get in our heads and now we're missing the mark on what's really important here and we can't always say for sure what's going on with them I will say that in general if this person isn't willing to talk about things they're wasting your time if they're not willing to address or correct things that have been talked about they're wasting your time if you guys aren't on the same page about what you want and where you want to go in life wasting time so there are some things I think we can just look at and say listen this is pointless here but a lot of times and I have to say this especially for women women's intuition is extremely powerful I'm a huge believer in it and I feel like women know very early this isn't it but they rationalize reasons to convince themselves to give this man a chance and this again is a waste of time because it just doesn't work I've seen people turn what should have been maybe a couple weeks of dating into years of being married to someone they were not happy with all because they did not listen to themselves from the beginning they knew what it was but they just could not accept it for what it was yeah and I love that point on intuition it's almost like when a relationship finally ends a lot of us think to ourselves I knew they weren't right yeah like I knew it I knew that they weren't the one but you just didn't listen to that part of yourself yes so so let's break it down for people let's help people out we started talking about three very important words connection which you defined chemistry which we've defined in compatibility which we've defined how do people know the difference between connection and chemistry when they meet someone because I find that the science shows that you're experiencing dopamine and cortisol at the same times you're experiencing the reward chemical and stress chemical at the same time which gives you that chemistry feeling which is the feeling of butterflies in your stomach or like do they like me are they into me what should I wear that kind of feeling but then you're talking about a deeper connection how do you hear the difference because I think a lot of us just get swept up in the feeling of I'm So Into that person they're so into me how do you know so I think one is are you even being yourself or can you be yourself with this individual if if you're presenting your representative then this is not a real connection this is them falling for that person that you're presenting but that's not real so to me you have you should be already being yourself but with that person you have a connection with it's a more natural flow we don't have to force it we just feel so much more comfortable around them I think in addition to that is when you when you find yourself all caught up in the moment and caught up in that chemistry again you have to ask yourself what am I really attaching myself to what about what do I really like about this individual what I find is that when it's really about chemistry we're still on the surface you don't really know about them yet you just know you guys had a good time maybe you had fun at this event you guys were able to talk about a lot of different things which is great which is gonna also be important if there is a connection however do you even know what college did they want do you know what kind of Life they want to live you know are you guys really on the same page I think connection is our paths align our purpose is align so for us to align we have to have a deeper understanding of where we're headed and can we head there together so so that's why I think though you may feel it or you may feel like you're feeling it you have to do your due diligence to dig deeper to find out okay is this just I got caught up on the surface or there is something real here yeah and I think once we ask enough questions because I think that's the other big problem we have this experience where we feel this chemistry we're so excited and now we're afraid to ask questions because we don't want to blow up the fantasy yes you know what I'm saying we're just like no no I want to keep believing this is great so let me not ask anything let me not run this person away let me not rock the boat but that's going to be what tells us if this is real or not yes I think you're I think you've hit on something there like we're so scared of losing someone that we're okay with not asking important questions and discovering important truths that actually define whether this relationship is going to last absolutely and that is ultimately going back to your point earlier that is ultimately you not being yourself right you're losing yourself scared that you're going to lose the other person so you're okay with not being yourself do you think it's ever okay this is a funny question I think but I have to ask you because I think it's a healthy discussion do you think it's ever okay to present different sides of yourself in order to attract someone or do you think that you're ultimately setting yourself up for failure in a relationship almost like I think a lot of people they may not become someone completely different but I think a lot of people are like oh I'm gonna show my smart side because it will attract this person or I'm gonna show my this side because they're like that are you saying any of that kind of molding is unhealthy or do you think there's room for that I think anything that is not sustainable is unhealthy so look at it as if I'm a man and I'm meeting this woman I want to impress her so I'm like okay I'm gonna try to spend all my money take a nice five-star restaurant all these things but deep inside I prefer a more simple lifestyle you know I don't like all that extra stuff okay that's horrible that's a sale for disaster that's unhealthy because you can't sustain what you're presenting to that individual that's gonna draw them in so whatever it is another like common example is you'll have women who love to communicate they want to be able to talk to you every single day but because they're afraid of coming off a certain kind of way they'll hold back on their communication so now they'll make it seem like they're okay with talking every now and then we don't always have to text and then this guy falls for that he falls for this low standard I won't call low standard but not having such a high expectation of him when it comes to communication then he finally gets with the woman her true self is going to come out at some point no one can suppress their true self forever it comes out and now it's like what is this I did not sign up for this now we're fighting now we're stressed because you want him to call you more he was used to you not being worried about it so much that's why it's going to always not work out so it's extremely unhealthy unless we're presenting a side of us that is truly us and we can sustain it you've hit on something again that that at the beginning of relationships we often display unrealistic standards and we set those yes and then when things shift and now you're back in reality again the other person's like but wait a minute I thought you were really into me and I even went through that with my wife when we first met I was able to spend pretty much every day with her because I didn't have a job and so I was looking for work I was applying I would go see her at her College every day and I would spend the day with her and I'd be in the library applying for jobs while she was studying yeah and I could see it every day and I think I saw every day potentially for like six months maybe every single day five days a week at least and then when I got a job that wasn't the case anymore because I was at work now and I'd set this unrealistic expectation that we could see each other all the time and even in the beginning I would see her all the time because I'd spend time with her family but we wouldn't spend time with my family because I hadn't told my family yet and so now that my family knew we were trying to split the time and all of a sudden it was like wait a minute we used to spend time at my house and so even in little things like that it took a bit of adapting because I'd set a false standard in our relationship and then thankfully my wife was adapting and she understood and she got it and it was fine but I think for so many people you set unrealistic expectations in who you are yes and that's hard to come back from absolutely yeah and that's why it's so important for us to know who we are so that we can present the real from the jump you know because again A lot of times people you know this idea that we're always changing yes I do think we're always evolving but some of the big shifts that you see are is not because that's just the way life is it's because you did take the time to figure yourself out first and then you got with this person and now you want them to adjust now thank God for you she was able to adjust but there's a lot of people that they can't handle that yeah and now everything falls apart from there so that's why yeah we have to be very careful with what we're presenting from the beginning yeah it's I I agree with you on that that we think people change but actually they just start to understand themselves exactly they went from being completely unconscious about who they were you met an unconscious version of a person yeah and now you think they're changing but they just became conscious of who they are absolutely and but the thing is Stefan as you know like Society doesn't encourage that time of getting to know yourself right when you're young you're not trained in how to think about who you want to be you're trained in thinking about what you want to I do it's about your job it's about your career you're not thinking about who you are as a human being or as a person so how do we in this Society where understanding who you are is not clear it's not encouraged where where does one start or where have you kind of found great insights in trying to discover who we are I would love to see more parents encouraging their children to explore how they're feeling about who they are like what I have found is a lot of people who let's say I I had one client where she wanted to be an actress when she was a little kid uh but parents kind of push in a different direction now she's like a social worker but her desire is still to be an actress like the things that they they wanted to do they they want to do as an adult now you can find back in their childhood in a lot of cases so I feel like too many people have stifled their children's growth in certain areas with limited ideas of well this can't make money or this wouldn't be a good look for the family or whatever the case may be it's like no let them walk in it and see for themselves if that's really where they belong outside of that for me I think the big thing is getting in tune spiritually I'm just a huge believer in that I feel like me finding myself was when I went into what I call my Wilderness period I kind of just shut everything off that I was doing because I used to be all over having fun partying all these different things things and then God kind of slapped me upside my head and I had to like really pull away from everything and go deeper from within and it felt like a process of breaking me down to build me right back up and that's when I start to see things clearer because what I realized is the world is filled with distractions and it's the distractions why we can't see ourselves for who we really are if we simply shut off the distractions long enough you will learn a lot so even if someone just took a year off don't worry you know limit the TV you're watching limit the music you're listening to limit all the internet stuff just really go deeper within yourself spend more time alone spend more time you know thinking and processing you will learn a lot because again a lot of it is it isn't a problem of we don't know ourselves we are not aware and we're not willing to accept and once we allow ourselves to do those two things become aware and then accept it we become free yeah I I mean I agree with you I think that I've always been a big proponent of solitude to understand who you are because as soon as you have another person you now have another person's opinions you have to filter yes as soon as you have another person in front of you you have another person's judgments to filter and so now you can't even say what you truly think about something because you're constantly thinking what does that person think about me and my beliefs and so understanding your beliefs in solitude allows you to be really clear about what your values and beliefs are and and that's what it's there for I think when people get into if we switch to compatibility again the idea we talked about the difference between connection and chemistry but compatibility is really interesting because a lot of people believe that relationships should be hard and they require hard work and a lot of people believe relationships should be easy and everything should just flow where have you kind of discovered your lens on that Spectrum so okay there's a there's a couple ways to look at it I think that most relationships and I'll even be more specific most relations that involve connection and true love are typically hard not because relationships have to be hard but because most people have been hurt by something in their life are holding on to past traumas haven't resolved it once they meet this individual that they feel so strongly about it is scary this is where things get difficult it's the difficultness in how do I handle this how do I manage this you'll have people feel like they're losing themselves but they're not losing themselves their true self is coming out and it's it's the self that's been hiding behind that wall they've been using for quote-unquote protection but I always say the same module to protect you the same as blocking your blessings so now they're being pulled from behind it it's it's makes them feel some kind of way and again people start to mishandle things you also have situations where people are getting bad advice like I'm gonna give one example um there's this uh book called The Game by Neil Strauss I don't know if you ever read that book yeah it was great Neil you know you you answer that world to pick up artistry we learned it and he was great with the women but then once he found that woman that he fell in love with all that stuff doesn't work anymore so you have a lot of men being taught how to handle women in general but they don't understand that's not how you handle the woman you truly love and so now again you have individuals who though they are truly in love with this person they constantly mishandle it with bad Guidance with fear and all these things this is what makes it hard and and I even think that a lot of times the people who are supposed to be together sometimes will have the hardest time getting together but I believe that once we're able to conquer that part of it and actually come together it's not hard yes it takes work I believe we have to be conscious and mindful of how we treat our partners how we show up being willing to listen but I think it's so much easier to do those things with someone you have a connection with and you're truly in love with it's gonna always feel ten times harder when you're in the wrong relationship and I would argue the vast majority of people are in the wrong relationship that's why they're seeing it be so difficult and when you see this whole it's easy typically it's easy because you have two people who are not digging deeper they're they're trying to write out that chemistry we talked about earlier for as long as possible all right so yeah it seems like it's great it's easy no issues but it doesn't really work like that because they're just not facing the reality of the situation so I think we we have to understand that there is going to be some bumps in the road because of all the things that people have been through but once we're able to come together and we know this is our partner this is who we want to share our life with it can get so much better yeah and do you do you think that people have just been given generally the wrong education on how to deal with another person in their life 100 yeah because unfortunately a lot of individuals are giving advice from a bit or hurt place there and and they're trying to disguise it as I'm just looking out for you no you you have inhaled and you cannot properly guide them in a positive and loving Manner and I think that a lot of people you know I always say it's funny how we'll spend a lot of time getting educated for the for the sake of our careers and business but we don't do the same for relationships and yet relationships arguably are even more important than that career business and even if it's not a romantic relationship just relationships in general your ability to coexist with others connect with others is extremely important if you want that business to succeed you have to learn how to establish business relationships there's no way around it so we have to learn how to talk to people listen to people you know what I'm saying and just make make things work when we come together with other individuals so I definitely think that we're just lacking in a lot of education and again too many because there's so many voices on the internet now there's just so much bad advice being given and and the individuals giving it they may be giving like let's say 80 of the advice is accurate but it's that 20 that's completely off that can derail everything and that's the stuff that people are gravitating to and this is causing a lot of problems can you give us some example of some of the like not specific people or anything like that I just mean like could you give example of bad advice and what about it is bad or unhealthy for people to try and put into practice okay so one thing I heard recently was an individual told uh said some of the best advice you can give to men is to not fall in love you know basically just find a woman you want to be with and kind of keep it there the reason why I view that as horrible advice is because you sit down with any man who's lived enough life they will all be able to say there's been at least one time they fail deeply for a woman all right the problem isn't falling deep before a woman the problem is we don't know how to handle it once we get there the problem is because we're not accustomed to handling and processing our emotions a certain kind of way and being this vulnerable we don't understand what's going to be required of us in that moment we also kind of lose sight of because I'm a big believer in masculine and feminine energy and I believe that if she was attracted to you because of that masculine energy that you give off and now you become this emotional wreck because you don't know how to handle all these feelings you have for her well you start to become less attractive to her and it's not that it's not fixable it's fixable but again a lack of understanding and awareness derails the situation so rather than telling men don't fall in love because it's inevitable let's teach them how we walk in love how we make what I call Loving in your masculine how you maintain that energy and still be able to pour into that woman in a way that allows relationship to flourish yeah and how does that work when I think obviously a lot of people in that example that you're giving if if the person is attracted to someone because of their masculine energy but at the same time they want them to be empathetic and compassionate and kind which are generally seen as more feminine energy how does that person balance the two or is that is that not how you're explaining is that no it's about balance so we have to understand we all have masculine and feminine of course within us I'm a Believer in one must be your dominant energy the other is the one you tap into when necessary so as a man you can walk in your masculine and in those moments tap into those things but you can't just stay there all the time all right you can't just become this needy emotional God that's not going to work in the vast majority of cases and so what happens is there's this messaging that's being thrown out there that women don't like good guys I don't believe that's what it is I believe that women become less attracted when you don't know how to exude and walk in your masculine energy it's and and we're hiding behind the label of good guy you can be a good guy and still exude masculine energy and that's the thing and we also think that oh they like bad boys no if you look deeper it's really the masculine energy that that quote-unquote bad boy exudes but what they desire is a mixture of both the same way that we would want a mixture of both we would want a loving sweet woman family woman whatever or and if you're a guy who wants a mask and woman cool but you don't want her to be just that you know you want her to have the ability to tap into that other side when necessary I think we all desire that balance in our partner and I think it's healthy and if we just learn how to maintain it and how to nurture it we would see greater success in relationships yeah what are some of the skills with with mastering that energy that you think we're missing out on and balancing that energy and knowing when to be which and because the reason why it's hard is I think we live in a binary world right like you feel like you have to choose like you're either a bad boy or you're a good girl you are a doer or you're a thinker you're uh winner or you're a loser right like we think like that and some people go okay you need to be masculine or I can be feminine and I I definitely relate to what you were saying like I believe that there is a lot about me that is massively masculine in energy using that language and terminology my drive my ambition how I work my strategic mind and at the same time I consider myself to have a lot of great feminine energy and qualities where it comes to like empowering others and nurturing and the ability to hold deep compassionate space and be empathetic which are all powerful qualities for for everyone right Beyond gender they're powerful qualities and I appreciate and it's taken a long time to know when to be which and it's still and I still make mistakes right there's still sometimes like I should have been more assertive I should have been more affectionate so we live in a world that finds it hard to hold two opposing ideas at the same time yeah we don't know how to do that in any sphere of life let alone within ourselves so what are some of the skills that we can learn in order to nurture both those energies in a healthy way inside of ourselves so I think one it's going to require a lot of if you're already in a relationship it's going to boil down to a lot of transparency and communication you know her if you're that man trying to understand that woman and when you can walk in those two energies her being willing to be honest and open about you know what this was too much over here or I needed some of this over here and in time you're going to become more aware and understanding it's going to be like second nature to you you won't have to overthink it and I think part of it is not overthinking it it's kind of like being ourselves but understanding that we have to learn when this is doing too much and vice versa I also think that in reality for a lot of men especially uh when we're talking about relationships and kind of losing that masculine energy the the underlying issue is fear all right when we become so afraid of losing this woman we lose ourselves and so a lot of men now fall into this very feminine needy space because they're just afraid we have to learn that listen like to me I feel if your partner thinks you're never gonna walk away from them no matter what they do you've lost that's that's a horrible place to be in we have to get to a place where we both understand that as long as we show up the way that we need to show up for each other we have each other's back we will be here but neither of us will tolerate an unhealthy relationship and someone who blatantly does not want to work on making this better I would want my the woman I'm with to feel that way and I need to feel that way once we understand that and you have the confidence of I can walk away if I have to that shifts your energy right there in itself and now you don't find yourself falling into that place where again you start to look a lot more unattractive or for some men they become yes men in their relationships thinking that makes her happy that's turning her off she doesn't want you to be her yes man she wants you to stand up for yourself sometimes give your opinion give your perspective she wants to be able to you know if anything be able to have discussions with you about these things not just you say whatever you want whatever you want whatever you want over time it becomes a problem so I think that once we conquer that fear once we create a space where we can talk about these moments and not feel some kind of way I think sometimes men are not they struggle with taking the criticism from their partner men and women we we all do when we feel when we have actual feelings for someone you know we don't care about you it's not as big of a deal but we're emotionally invested we're more sensitive to it but we have to understand that these criticisms are for the sake of making things better and strengthening this relationship so once we can get to that place it's going to be so much easier to grow in it and then I think it's just a matter of understanding that it's this balance isn't just for your relationship so look at it like from a sports perspective if I'm on a basketball team there may be moments where I need to take the lead and recognize all right everyone else is down someone needs to step up this is my moment and then there's other moments where I realize okay let's say we already have a team captain let me show them that I can follow serve do what needs to be done so that the team can win it's just becoming aware of what the moment requires you know and again I think the more in tune we get the more in tune we get with ourselves and the more in tune we get with our partner the easier it becomes to find that balance that's the challenge right the challenge is just how much patience we have with ourselves and others to realize that you walked into an imbalance unbalanced situation and now it's like how much patience how much time are we going to give it to get to that because the challenge is I think we walk into a situation thinking it's perfect whereas we should be walking into a relationship knowing it's imperfect absolutely and we're going to learn and figure it out together and I think that's what sets us up for failure is because we walk into it going it's perfect and deep down we know it isn't but somehow we gloss over it whereas I find when I know we're gonna fight when I know we're gonna argue and I know there's going to be disagreements that sets me up to develop the skills I need in order to navigate those things yes but if I assume like oh we're never gonna fight and I always get that right we always meet someone who goes to I mean a friend who goes to me Jay we never fight I'm like how long have you been together because I don't I don't know anyone who never fights I get that no one has to get to like yeah the heights of fights yeah I did that I did that it doesn't have to be a heated fight but I don't know anyone who doesn't disagree there you go all right right I think that's important for people to understand yeah there's a difference yes you have some individuals out there that'll say arguing is normal it's healthy and to me it's like listen if we're talking about arguing where we're now Crossing disrespectful lines negative lines you know the way that we the tone we take with each other all these things that's not healthy yes it may happen you should be prepared for that but it does let's not normalize it just gonna keep doing this and it's it is what it is but you're right to to be with each other long enough and never have a disagreement that's extremely rare okay extremely rare and I do think that again as you mentioned we have to be ready for those moments we have to understand and going back to how we find that balance especially as men and even for women it's recognizing so for example if my partner is in a very heated moment let's say she's in her masculine right now all right she's getting rough well meeting her with more masculine is probably going to only make things worse yeah this is the time for me to be compassionate go to her hold her calm her down bring her peace in that moment you see because it we need to balance each other out same thing on the flip side if I'm all heated and I'm I'm extra passionate and then my woman now comes with that same energy that's it now where button has this is her moment to say no let me now be the one to soften the moment up bring that Sweetness in there and everybody calms down so it's learning how to feed off of each other and recognize okay they're over here let me bring it back over here and now we can work from that point and we're both good the problem is that we all see compassion and sweetness and kindness in those moments as a weakness we don't want to be that person because we see that as losing we see that as giving in we see that as us losing our power and strength in a relationship if we become the comforter or if we become the carer right like that's that's a perception that is the perception and we have to change that that is the power position so who is more powerful the person that lets the energy dictate them how they're going to react or the person that brings the energy and dictates how they're going to make this situation play out so if I'm coming in to calm it down and being all sweet because I'm trying to bring peace here I'm in the power position I'm not losing anything I'm gonna gain more peace and happiness and Harmony if I succeed in what I'm trying to do so we have to get out of that mindset of this makes us weaker and that is the big key of it that's a big problem that for a lot of women who struggle with their feminine energy that's a big issue where they feel that being feminine is weakness it's what got them taken advantage of and got them hurt but I always say it's not the feminine energy that's the problem it's who you give it to do they respect it did they honor it you know it's the same thing as a man does she respect your masculine if she doesn't then that might just be a sign you're with the wrong person but don't stop being that guy because the woman who's best for you is going to need that in those moments that that's exactly what it is is that when people have been their best selves for the wrong person that person brings out the worst in them yes right like when someone's been their best loving kindness self but someone took advantage of it that person now thinks next time I've got to be aggressive I've got to be you know powerful I've got to be strong in this way and I feel like that's kind of what most people are dealing with we know that is that you're just dealing with a wounded version of someone yes not a healed version of someone but I think people struggle to trust again and again especially when they see the same patterns in the person they're weird and I guess the question is why do we keep making the same mistakes because I feel like a lot of us keep dating the same people yeah and there's a part of us that also just keeps closing off or being more wounded it's almost like if you cut yourself you now walk around with your hand over that you don't want to get cut again and then if you lead it off and it gets cut even deeper now you're even more conscious of that and so I find that people are doing that where they're closing their heart more and more because it's been so misused and abused and I understand that I understand people don't want to be abused and misused but I guess the question is how do people find people that they know respect them so that they can be their best version or be a better version of themselves so you know you can't drive out Darkness with more Darkness you can't expose someone who's gonna hurt you by being someone who's closed off and holding back yourself we have it's kind of what we were just talking about we have to look at being vulnerable loving and open as not just well I'm setting myself to be hurt no it's how you expose people faster if I come with that energy and you cannot respect it match it then I know you don't belong here but if I hold back I give you a free pass to hold back so now we have two individuals who are hiding behind their walls because it's comfortable there but you can't really see what's what do we really have in front of us those walls are blinding you and you can't properly evaluate the situation so one we we got to get to a place of healing from our past so that we're not just walking around with the hand over the cut no you you gotta let the cup breathe you gotta let it heal all right holding on put your hand on there is delaying the process and like you said all that's gonna happen is when you finally take your hand off but you're taking it off with the wrong person and you haven't learned see what I want people to realize is your actions weren't the problem meaning you being loving sweet kind compassionate wasn't the problem it was the person separate those two things that you don't stop doing the good things now granted are there levels to this to where we have to learn again if I'm thinking about a man if you got so deeply emotional to where you kind of lost your your masculine energy and you became very needy okay you can say all right I need to continue to be loving but I know I have to learn how to draw a line I have to learn how not to cross that moment and again you only crossed it because you were unhealthy to begin with you only cross it because you were afraid to begin with once you get to that place where you're healthy and confident you won't find yourself Crossing that line anymore yeah you won't tolerate certain things anymore so we have to heal we have to be confident and we have to let our light shine so that we can expose what's in front of us easier that's a brilliant answer I I love the differentiation between how sharing your light is not the problem the person's the problem because we yeah we start to doubt whether being a good person a loving person is actually what wins in the world yeah and the truth is that it does win but it has to win with someone who can receive it and absolutely hold that space with you and share that space with you and I find that a lot of people keep giving that energy to the wrong person because we feel we can make them better right like there's this feeling of like I can change this person I can make them better I can heal them there's some of us want to fix people yeah and that means we assume the person we're with is broken and I think this is such a subconscious thing like if you're always critiquing if you're always picking at stuff with your partner chances are you don't think they're great like just now you think there's some issues with them when you think that you can fix them and they're broken tell us about that angle where now we're almost we've talked about being the loving and kind person but sometimes we're being the person that thinks we're loving and kind because we want to improve someone but that person doesn't want to improve one big problem is that what's really driving people to pick that individual is that by being the one that can upgrade you improve you I have more value here by having more value I have a false sense of security you have to appreciate me you're less likely to walk away you're less likely to cheat because you're lucky to have me I feel like I'm the prize here but those situations never really work because again you're choosing someone that is not capable of pouring into you the way you need you're basing this off of what you could do for them and that's not sustainable and you're choosing them because again you have more emotional control here what happens to so many people especially women it's something that I call the unhealthy love cycle of women where women in their first love experience outside of any childhood trauma may have experienced they're their most loving they're just out there they go all the way in but that typically happens at a younger age at an age where men are not mature enough to handle those kind of emotions that level of commitment so on and so forth so she gets hurt after she gets hurt her moment is saying to herself I will never let this happen to me again so now the woman starts to consciously or subconsciously choose men who are I don't want to say lower than hurt but essentially a man who does not take her there he's good enough to be with but I'm not that vulnerable with him he can't hurt me like that first love hurt me and so that Dynamic usually leads to picking that person I can fix I can make better who will appreciate and respect me but again it doesn't work out and many times you'll see these same situations the guy will move on to cheat on her not because and I have to say this because some women think yeah he's just being a man no not because he's a man but because you chose a man that you could never be the woman that he needed and he could never be the man that you needed once he kind of either gets what he needs from you to build himself up or the Smoke Clears from him being infatuated with you he starts to realize I'm not getting everything that I desire and now you building him up has brought him more attention from other women so now the the difference between what you're not giving him and what someone else is willing to give him becomes way clearer now the Temptation gets way stronger and he ends up doing something or she ends up cheating as well because he's safe but he doesn't fulfill her he doesn't satisfy her he he doesn't excite her in any kind of way and that's why I always said earlier like the safe choice is almost always the wrong choice but that is a function of people trying to choose these fix or uppers because they think it's going to give them some leverage there it's leverage that's it yeah it's leverage yeah how do you know when it's time to go like how do you know when it's like I feel like this is a common question where it's like how do you know when it's just I've tried everything we've tried together tried our best maybe we went to therapy maybe we got a coach or maybe you know maybe we didn't do those things how do I just know that I feel like I need to go but I'm scared of being alone yeah I'm I'm scared of dealing with the reality that I put in a lot of energy and I feel like you said this earlier but a lot of people stay in something for a lot longer than they should because they'd rather not be alone yes they'd rather not face reality they'd rather not lose two years of their life they'd rather lose two more thinking that this this should stay like how do you know when it's time to go let me first say this yes I think I think Society needs to change their thinking as far as Letting Go doesn't always mean it can't work out later it's just that it cannot work out under these circumstances all right because some people say well I feel like they're the one okay maybe they are but maybe the time is not right and it's letting go that will allow you both to do what needs to be done in your own personal lives that would allow you to come back together and have something way more amazing so that's number one thing to consider but outside of that it's when one if that person is unwilling to put in the work necessary it's time to go there's like so many times I'll I'll have a video go up about communication and someone will comment saying I've tried talking to him and he doesn't want to talk to me and in my head I'm like why are you still with them if he refuses to talk to you you've already tried there's nothing else to do but people will let it Linger on and continue why they can why they consistently complain or unhappy about this specific issue it's not gonna magically get better they're not gonna just change it just because all of a sudden they see oh it needs to change no if they're fighting it now they have no reason to change it and what people have to understand you know especially with this whole trying to fix people up healing and facing your traumas is one of the hardest things for people to do so if they already have you in their life they're essentially getting the incentive or the benefit of relationship without having to do the deeper work it's almost like if I'm at a job and the job says you need to have a master's degree to work here but we're going to hire you anyway and give you time to get that master's degree if getting that degree is super hard to you you're gonna drag that out as long as possible yeah you may never get the degree until they fire you when they fire you and you realize oh my gosh if I don't do this I'll never get this person back I'll never get this opportunity back now they might go and get it because it's very tough to walk down the path of the healing process so if they're not willing to work on it you guys have already discussed it and I think that's a big thing because there's a lot of relationships that end and the couples don't even know what the real issue was so the communication they'll say well we talked about no you guys argued you guys lashed out there wasn't a clear communication as to what the problem was what is expected how do we go about this if you've done that and I believe one of the most effective ways to do that is through a letter because I feel like verbal communication of deep issues and concerns they typically don't go well you know people get distracted they forget what they want to say the other person gets defensive they're not they're listening to rebuttal not to understand but when there's a letter involved it gives you time to get everything out you can you can evaluate your tone leave no stone unturned and now they have an opportunity to process it on their time to really take it in and then you guys can come together and discuss the letter and now it's so much easier to stay on point and get everything covered if we've done that and they're still unwilling or there's still no progress It's Time to Go yeah that's great that's great advice and I for me that's the biggest one it's like you can't make something last if only one person's working on it you can't keep hoping and waiting and wishing and and like you said that ending doesn't mean forever and often I found that two people need to grow individually to be able to grow collectively and we're forcing growing together so hard but we need space to grow and if you can't grow together chances are you need to grow apart in order to see whether you grow together again or grow for someone else and all of those options are okay but we put so much pressure on people to grow together that they grow apart yeah and actually if they chose to grow apart and grow separately they could come back together if they learn the lessons and I think that's a mistake too though sometimes people think I'm gonna go learn this lesson for this person I meet a lot of people they're like okay they broke up with me because I wasn't XYZ now I'm gonna go become XYZ to win them back yeah and I always find I'm just like well no you should go become XYZ if you think you were missing XYZ but not to win them back because you don't know what they're gonna do what's your take on people trying to win people back so I 100 agree with you like if we're trying to learn or grow it needs to be for the benefit of who we are and just whoever we deal with so was almost like if I was a bad Communicator in this relationship I shouldn't learn to better communicate for that person I need to better communicate for whoever I'm going to be with if you can't see it in that light then maybe you're looking at the wrong thing my thing is this I think it all depends on what the details of the situation was what led to the breakup what were you overlooking what was missing are these fixable issues because a lot of people are trying to win back someone where the issues are not resolved so it's like what's the point of going back we're just going to go in the same cycle all over again they're letting this idea of I miss them I don't want to be without them blind them from the fact that you two did not get along well or you two don't want the same things or YouTube just whatever it is maybe there's a lack of sexual satisfaction I don't know why I feel the need to mention that but it happens a lot of times you have to stay focused on what led to the end and can this be corrected if it can cool but as you mentioned listen correcting it does not guarantee you they're coming back and even if they will come back you don't know when they may need so you may have figured yourself out in six months they might need a year and I would argue if you guys are truly meant for each other and at the end of the year you need a year too you're just overlooking some things and you're rushing the process because you want to get back to them yeah it's I've never found a situation where it was truly only one person who had problems and the other person was squeaky clean no no you thought you were but you got some stuff too you needed to correct of course so I think we have to be honest with ourselves and just keep striving to be better and rather than focus on winning them back just become the best you because if you do and there's a true connection there the opportunity will present itself again and you too will be able to make something of it and the struggle is that when people finally make that decision to break up or let go the study showed that the parts of your brain that are activated in a breakup are the same as detoxing from cocaine right like you're literally trying to detox so you can have a craving yeah for someone that's bad for you yeah or also it says that the areas of the brain that are activated in a breakup are the areas that are the same with physical pain so if someone like punching the stomach the reason why we say like my heart feels broken is because it literally feels like something's broken yeah so when you're going through a breakup when you're feeling the craving to be with that person again studies show that eight over eighty percent of people are looking at what their exes are doing on social media right probably through a Finster account or whatever but you have to you have to know what are some of the healthiest tips that you've given to people and the people that you've worked with that have genuinely helped people move through a breaker the first thing is to ask yourself again why was I even there why am I holding on to this individual again I think sometimes we get so blinded by just the experience or our desire to have this person for whatever reason that we Overlook what was really missing or why this could not work anyway what you'll also find is and I'm sure there's probably a study on it where if you if they broke up with you you ever see a situation it happens on TV a lot where the person could be like okay I'm gonna break up with my partner they're planning on it they've been practicing in their head right it took them a couple weeks to muster up the strength they're about to do it and then the partner breaks up with them yeah now it's oh my gosh I gotta get them back yeah so it's like you just forgot this whole time that was your plan yeah it just gave you the past to do it but now because we don't like to be the one being let go of now we're fighting hard to get it back yeah so we have to really not fall into these little traps that happen to us as human beings our brains just playing tricks on us or something where we confuse these emotions for oh my gosh I must really love them or even like you said you go into that detox and because you miss I always tell people no matter how bad the relationship was there's always good moments so if you're trying to break free you can't just let your brain focus on the good moments you have to remind yourself why this doesn't work but if you keep focusing on the good you start to make yourself think oh because I missed this good moment I must miss them and there's this quote that says sometimes you're not missing the person you're missing the feeling so you've got to be able to differentiate those two things so getting back to how we get over these breakups is recognizing why were we really there to begin with you know could this actually work the next thing is you know I'm a huge believer that a lot of times a breakup is a blessing in disguise even if there is a chance that you two can work together or this is the one for you you may have needed this time to re-evaluate and get things in order something is obviously wrong even if you it may be something as deep as because I've seen situations where everything was going amazingly well on the surface and the person broke up with them let's say the woman lets go of the man so to the man that's really confusing but what it was is that that woman she had not healed from her past relationships and this relationship being so good was scaring her and what happens is the the better you are the scarier it becomes for her she's looking for something to be wrong she has to validate her fear somehow wow when she can't find it she'll either sabotage the relationship or she'll run from it So to that man it may seem like this is so unfair which yeah it sucks but if this woman didn't break up with you now you were inevitably gonna face this same ending but at a worse time yeah all right this is still best that is happening now at least if she can go do what she needs to do there's a chance for this to come back around later but it's hard for us to see it in the moment so I think just really we also have to focus on our healing whenever a breakup happens the mistake we make is that we think it's about healing from the breakup no it's healing from everything you've been through you've probably been sleeping under the rug your childhood trauma for years maybe the last two three relationships whatever it is so and and not healing from those things is contributing to your struggle to get past this breakup and contributing to why you even chose this person to begin with I'm a huge believer that if you haven't healed you are 90 likely to choose the wrong person yeah it's just too difficult to pick that person that you truly love and can truly love you and accept that level of vulnerability when you have still not resolved your past traumas and past hurts yeah so to me that's the next big thing is just focus on your healing process because in that process you will also be able to see more clearly if this is really for you or not like walking around unhealed is like walking around with broken glasses you you can't see straight no matter how hard you try but healing will clear up your vision really really fast and now it'd be like oh wait a minute I didn't belong there yeah you know thank God the broke breakup happened you know now I'm in a better place I move forward so to me I think and I would say in addition to those things is just have an accountability partner whether that's friend coach therapist someone that can help keep you in check help remind you what you need to do someone that you know you have to talk to and update what's going on so you feel like okay I don't want to come back so I'm saying I'm doing the same thing over and over again it doesn't guarantee success but it helps it helps move the needle some so I would highly encourage that that one mindset you spoke about that that changes everything and it hit me today I was just thinking if we were just able in a moment to recognize that something painful now was going to be good for us in five years time that would change so many things in our life yes but we're so poor at dealing with current pain yeah even if it means future joy that we just can't accept that I have to go through this like in everything right like knowing that someone breaking up with you just saved you 10 years of a wasted life is so much more than knowing you're gonna have to go through a few months of pain and 10 months of pain maybe it's a bit longer maybe it's two three years but we just have to get our head around that that sometimes the best things that happen to you are protecting more of your life than the pain that they're causing you need the Peace of knowing I did what I needed to do that's it yeah because anytime you feel like well maybe I could have done this but I could have done that leaves the door open for doubt do it well exactly so it's like and that's why I'm such a big believer in you know there's people who say well once they're done they're done they'll just move on and I'm like no no Express Yourself get everything off your chest because you don't need anything to linger and you questioning well what if I did this different no make sure speak your full piece and now you can say all right I did what I had to do it is what it is I move forward and I mean it makes it easier it may not make it a hundred percent you know not an issue whatsoever but it's gonna be easier and also also for me that's why like my relationship with God is so important because that's where I find my peace in dealing with a situation that doesn't work out the way I want to I always tell myself okay if this isn't working out God has something better for me you know if this is happening right now there's a purpose because I know if I followed his guidance throughout this process there's no need for me to question why is this the current outcome there's a reason for this and I've been through these things enough times to see as you mentioned the reward is going to come it may come next week it may come years from now it will come and I'll be able to see how it all connected yeah Stefan it's been incredible talking to you man this has been such a great back-to-back flowing conversation uh we end every on purpose episode with the final five which is like a rapid fire which means every question has to be answered with one word to one sentence maximum okay so here are your final five the first question is what's the best relationship advice you've ever received or heard or given it is to love fully lovefully and be yourself because as I said earlier that's how you will expose quicker who is for you and who isn't for you second question what is the worst relationship advice you've ever heard or received get under someone to get over someone [Laughter] uh question number three uh how would you defin	you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you're wasting your time the best-selling author and host the number one Health and Wellness podcast on purpose with Jay Shetty what are the signs that someone deeply loves you because I feel like we live in this world where we're always wondering do they love me do they like me do they really like me are they really into me how do you know when you deeply love someone and when someone deeply loves you how do you even know so I'm gonna start with an answer that people probably won't expect to me the first key is do you truly love them because look at it like this to me a lot of people get caught up in infatuation um they have unhealthy attachments they have different motivations to why they decided this is the person that I want and that can make them feel like they're in love but to me true love flows both ways it's not a one-sided thing so when you can say I I'm not into them like that if we look deep into that situation I can almost guarantee what we'll find is infatuation attachment something else but when you can say no I feel it too I'm deeply in	7	5	3	you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you're wasting your time	what are the signs that someone deeply loves you because I feel like we live in this world where we're always wondering do they love me do they like me do they really like me are they really into me how do you know when you deeply love someone and when someone deeply loves you how do you even know so I'm gonna start with an answer that people probably won't expect to me the first key is do you truly love them because look at it like this to me a lot of people get caught up in infatuation um they have unhealthy attachments they have different motivations to why they decided this is the person that I want and that can make them feel like they're in love but to me true love flows both ways it's not a one-sided thing so when you can say I I'm not into them like that if we look deep into that situation I can almost guarantee what we'll find is infatuation attachment something else but when you can say no I feel it too I'm deeply in	-5,4,-3	3,5,7	-5	4	-3	3	5	7
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPQBcb9wf8Q	4,056	mPQBcb9wf8Q	2023-03-27 00:00:00	you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you're wasting your time the best-selling author and host the number one Health and Wellness podcast on purpose with Jay Shetty what are the signs that someone deeply loves you because I feel like we live in this world where we're always wondering do they love me do they like me do they really like me are they really into me how do you know when you deeply love someone and when someone deeply loves you how do you even know so I'm gonna start with an answer that people probably won't expect to me the first key is do you truly love them because look at it like this to me a lot of people get caught up in infatuation um they have unhealthy attachments they have different motivations to why they decided this is the person that I want and that can make them feel like they're in love but to me true love flows both ways it's not a one-sided thing so when you can say I I'm not into them like that if we look deep into that situation I can almost guarantee what we'll find is infatuation attachment something else but when you can say no I feel it too I'm deeply in love with them I think that's your first key because without that nothing else matters because a lot of people are choosing Partners based off of what they love me so much so I assume it's safe here and this is a good choice to make but the safe choice is usually the wrong choice and a lot of these people select this individual thinking everything's going to be okay but because you're not really into them you can never be what they need and they were never truly what you needed which is why you never even got to that level with them so to choose them without first evaluating do you truly love them would not be wise yeah that's that's a great question and I think people struggle with that question too because I think we think of love as so many different things wrapped into one for example I could think I love someone because of how they treat me I could think I love someone because they have one quality that I really wish I had or I could love someone because I think that they're out of my league and they give me a bit of attention yeah and so what we think is love is so complex and so wide that we never stop to ask ourselves like what does love mean like what's the definition of love like how do I Define love so how do you define love and how do you encourage other people to create their definitions of Love well for me first off is always God is love and then when we take it from there love is about kindness compassion patience understanding a willingness to be selfless important to that individual but I think what's also important for people to understand is when we're trying to apply it to romantic relationships we have to understand that there's other ingredients that are necessary before we can move forward so you could love someone dearly but if they are not emotionally ready because maybe they haven't healed from their past maybe there's still some things that need to work out in their life then it wouldn't be time to move forward in a relationship with them and we have this bad habit of the minute we feel like there's love there we want to move forward exactly and as you mentioned we can get caught up sometimes in but we love them because of what they do for us but what are you prepared to do for them love is about giving all right so we have to ask ourselves okay do we know what their needs are are we willing to fulfill those needs because if not maybe this wasn't love maybe it just felt good in the moment maybe you got caught up in the hype and that's okay it happens to almost all of us if not all of us at some point in life but we have to just be real very clear with ourselves about what's really driving the intention right now but I think all those things I mentioned is what encompasses love of and that's like the foundation of it and then from there we have to look at some other things to see how we can move forward so many times like you you convince yourself something's love and what I find really interesting is that so many people fall in love too fast and no one wants to go for the slow patient understanding love which is what love requires you just said love is kind love is patient love is understanding those things take time I think those things take time to nurture and to to make sure that we're doing it correctly for each other so it's about learning each other's Love Languages and how we make it work in within that Dynamic I think also because so many people are not used to dealing with emotions at on that level being that vulnerable people mishandle it all right so it takes time for us to get to a place so we understand how to manage this and work through this however I think that I'm a huge believer in connection and I believe connection is like your spirit recognizing its match and it's very instant when you speak to couples who said they experience a connection they'll tell you first conversation first time meeting first date first week it was pretty fast so to me the the recognizing of something deeper being here can happen very quickly but how we now cultivate that and how we move forward is where we need to take our time and make sure we're not rushing and overlooking certain important issues that need to be discussed and addressed first to me it's the understanding of chemistry versus compatibility and the idea that there needs to be a spark there needs to be a connection that I feel with someone like you're saying on a deeper level but I find that I find that most people are not Adept and knowing whether the connection they feel with someone is deeper or physical yeah like I would say that it's easy to it you can often feel a spark with if you meet a lot of people you can feel a spot with a lot of people but that doesn't mean that they're the right person to build a relationship absolutely right yes so it's connection to me is a very rare occurrence right yes so I feel that people who've actually experienced it they can tell you maybe once in their life if you're lucky two times maybe all right but it's not this thing that happens with everybody whereas chemistry uh feeling of spark these things can happen with a lot of different people yeah so I do think there's there's this education that's needed to understand how we differentiate these things so that we don't confuse them because I see a lot of people take that chemistry and think oh this is it this is the one it's like but you had chemistry with the last five people why is this one the one and not them so I do think we have to be careful with that yeah I think so so we're on the same page there's three things there's connection on the deeper level there's chemistry which is like the spark on a more superficial level and then there's compatibility which is like what makes get lost and I can relate to that with my wife I definitely felt so I I'm one of those people who I kind of knew from the first few moments when I met my wife before she was my wife was like I was like yeah this is my person like I felt that way yeah for sure I felt that connection and there was chemistry there too but it had to be turned into compatibility in order to create a long lasting relationship we've been together for 10 years we're still learning building going through everything but that was a big part of it so that I can get behind is do you see it that way too or is there something different in so how do you see it believe it or not I used to make compatibility the least important but that was because I was looking at it the wrong way once I kind of looked at the definition again and compatibility is about two people coexisting in harmony yeah then I was like okay no you you have to have that I just I got caught up more so in like let's say a dating site says okay we're gonna decide who's compatible so I view compatible as like an on the paper it looks good it's supposed to match but you can have a lot of people who are supposed to be compatible and it doesn't work absolutely so I think that it's compatibility is that add-on once we have the connection and the chemistry now we have to create that Harmony which is the compatibility yes I agree with you and and it is interesting how that word compatibility is thrown around and you're so right that compatibility on paper doesn't mean compatibility in real life exactly and to me compatibility really has another word inside of it which is like adaptability and that deeper understanding of an individual where you know how much you're willing to adapt around certain parts of the relationship but we'll get to that I think a lot of people like you know and and that's where we got into this conversation around what is slow a lot of people are waiting to feel like is this person wasting my time are they the one and so they don't have a deeper connection maybe they had that spark of chemistry and now that's kind of subsided how do you know if someone's wasting your time how do you know if you're letting yourself be used or wasted in that way so to me again I think it always starts with self and you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you because just use an example let's say you're a woman and the only reason why you're holding on to this guy is because he's a nice guy you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you figure let me try to make it work you're wasting your time this is where you're setting yourself up for disaster every single time so if it's not born out of a true connection love a genuine desire you really like this individual of course there's always things we have to work through but is the foundation strong enough for us to say okay we can make something special here and I think once we are honest with ourselves that kind of helps answer the question because sometimes we get so caught up trying to animal lies the other individual that is like we get in our heads and now we're missing the mark on what's really important here and we can't always say for sure what's going on with them I will say that in general if this person isn't willing to talk about things they're wasting your time if they're not willing to address or correct things that have been talked about they're wasting your time if you guys aren't on the same page about what you want and where you want to go in life wasting time so there are some things I think we can just look at and say listen this is pointless here but a lot of times and I have to say this especially for women women's intuition is extremely powerful I'm a huge believer in it and I feel like women know very early this isn't it but they rationalize reasons to convince themselves to give this man a chance and this again is a waste of time because it just doesn't work I've seen people turn what should have been maybe a couple weeks of dating into years of being married to someone they were not happy with all because they did not listen to themselves from the beginning they knew what it was but they just could not accept it for what it was yeah and I love that point on intuition it's almost like when a relationship finally ends a lot of us think to ourselves I knew they weren't right yeah like I knew it I knew that they weren't the one but you just didn't listen to that part of yourself yes so so let's break it down for people let's help people out we started talking about three very important words connection which you defined chemistry which we've defined in compatibility which we've defined how do people know the difference between connection and chemistry when they meet someone because I find that the science shows that you're experiencing dopamine and cortisol at the same times you're experiencing the reward chemical and stress chemical at the same time which gives you that chemistry feeling which is the feeling of butterflies in your stomach or like do they like me are they into me what should I wear that kind of feeling but then you're talking about a deeper connection how do you hear the difference because I think a lot of us just get swept up in the feeling of I'm So Into that person they're so into me how do you know so I think one is are you even being yourself or can you be yourself with this individual if if you're presenting your representative then this is not a real connection this is them falling for that person that you're presenting but that's not real so to me you have you should be already being yourself but with that person you have a connection with it's a more natural flow we don't have to force it we just feel so much more comfortable around them I think in addition to that is when you when you find yourself all caught up in the moment and caught up in that chemistry again you have to ask yourself what am I really attaching myself to what about what do I really like about this individual what I find is that when it's really about chemistry we're still on the surface you don't really know about them yet you just know you guys had a good time maybe you had fun at this event you guys were able to talk about a lot of different things which is great which is gonna also be important if there is a connection however do you even know what college did they want do you know what kind of Life they want to live you know are you guys really on the same page I think connection is our paths align our purpose is align so for us to align we have to have a deeper understanding of where we're headed and can we head there together so so that's why I think though you may feel it or you may feel like you're feeling it you have to do your due diligence to dig deeper to find out okay is this just I got caught up on the surface or there is something real here yeah and I think once we ask enough questions because I think that's the other big problem we have this experience where we feel this chemistry we're so excited and now we're afraid to ask questions because we don't want to blow up the fantasy yes you know what I'm saying we're just like no no I want to keep believing this is great so let me not ask anything let me not run this person away let me not rock the boat but that's going to be what tells us if this is real or not yes I think you're I think you've hit on something there like we're so scared of losing someone that we're okay with not asking important questions and discovering important truths that actually define whether this relationship is going to last absolutely and that is ultimately going back to your point earlier that is ultimately you not being yourself right you're losing yourself scared that you're going to lose the other person so you're okay with not being yourself do you think it's ever okay this is a funny question I think but I have to ask you because I think it's a healthy discussion do you think it's ever okay to present different sides of yourself in order to attract someone or do you think that you're ultimately setting yourself up for failure in a relationship almost like I think a lot of people they may not become someone completely different but I think a lot of people are like oh I'm gonna show my smart side because it will attract this person or I'm gonna show my this side because they're like that are you saying any of that kind of molding is unhealthy or do you think there's room for that I think anything that is not sustainable is unhealthy so look at it as if I'm a man and I'm meeting this woman I want to impress her so I'm like okay I'm gonna try to spend all my money take a nice five-star restaurant all these things but deep inside I prefer a more simple lifestyle you know I don't like all that extra stuff okay that's horrible that's a sale for disaster that's unhealthy because you can't sustain what you're presenting to that individual that's gonna draw them in so whatever it is another like common example is you'll have women who love to communicate they want to be able to talk to you every single day but because they're afraid of coming off a certain kind of way they'll hold back on their communication so now they'll make it seem like they're okay with talking every now and then we don't always have to text and then this guy falls for that he falls for this low standard I won't call low standard but not having such a high expectation of him when it comes to communication then he finally gets with the woman her true self is going to come out at some point no one can suppress their true self forever it comes out and now it's like what is this I did not sign up for this now we're fighting now we're stressed because you want him to call you more he was used to you not being worried about it so much that's why it's going to always not work out so it's extremely unhealthy unless we're presenting a side of us that is truly us and we can sustain it you've hit on something again that that at the beginning of relationships we often display unrealistic standards and we set those yes and then when things shift and now you're back in reality again the other person's like but wait a minute I thought you were really into me and I even went through that with my wife when we first met I was able to spend pretty much every day with her because I didn't have a job and so I was looking for work I was applying I would go see her at her College every day and I would spend the day with her and I'd be in the library applying for jobs while she was studying yeah and I could see it every day and I think I saw every day potentially for like six months maybe every single day five days a week at least and then when I got a job that wasn't the case anymore because I was at work now and I'd set this unrealistic expectation that we could see each other all the time and even in the beginning I would see her all the time because I'd spend time with her family but we wouldn't spend time with my family because I hadn't told my family yet and so now that my family knew we were trying to split the time and all of a sudden it was like wait a minute we used to spend time at my house and so even in little things like that it took a bit of adapting because I'd set a false standard in our relationship and then thankfully my wife was adapting and she understood and she got it and it was fine but I think for so many people you set unrealistic expectations in who you are yes and that's hard to come back from absolutely yeah and that's why it's so important for us to know who we are so that we can present the real from the jump you know because again A lot of times people you know this idea that we're always changing yes I do think we're always evolving but some of the big shifts that you see are is not because that's just the way life is it's because you did take the time to figure yourself out first and then you got with this person and now you want them to adjust now thank God for you she was able to adjust but there's a lot of people that they can't handle that yeah and now everything falls apart from there so that's why yeah we have to be very careful with what we're presenting from the beginning yeah it's I I agree with you on that that we think people change but actually they just start to understand themselves exactly they went from being completely unconscious about who they were you met an unconscious version of a person yeah and now you think they're changing but they just became conscious of who they are absolutely and but the thing is Stefan as you know like Society doesn't encourage that time of getting to know yourself right when you're young you're not trained in how to think about who you want to be you're trained in thinking about what you want to I do it's about your job it's about your career you're not thinking about who you are as a human being or as a person so how do we in this Society where understanding who you are is not clear it's not encouraged where where does one start or where have you kind of found great insights in trying to discover who we are I would love to see more parents encouraging their children to explore how they're feeling about who they are like what I have found is a lot of people who let's say I I had one client where she wanted to be an actress when she was a little kid uh but parents kind of push in a different direction now she's like a social worker but her desire is still to be an actress like the things that they they wanted to do they they want to do as an adult now you can find back in their childhood in a lot of cases so I feel like too many people have stifled their children's growth in certain areas with limited ideas of well this can't make money or this wouldn't be a good look for the family or whatever the case may be it's like no let them walk in it and see for themselves if that's really where they belong outside of that for me I think the big thing is getting in tune spiritually I'm just a huge believer in that I feel like me finding myself was when I went into what I call my Wilderness period I kind of just shut everything off that I was doing because I used to be all over having fun partying all these different things things and then God kind of slapped me upside my head and I had to like really pull away from everything and go deeper from within and it felt like a process of breaking me down to build me right back up and that's when I start to see things clearer because what I realized is the world is filled with distractions and it's the distractions why we can't see ourselves for who we really are if we simply shut off the distractions long enough you will learn a lot so even if someone just took a year off don't worry you know limit the TV you're watching limit the music you're listening to limit all the internet stuff just really go deeper within yourself spend more time alone spend more time you know thinking and processing you will learn a lot because again a lot of it is it isn't a problem of we don't know ourselves we are not aware and we're not willing to accept and once we allow ourselves to do those two things become aware and then accept it we become free yeah I I mean I agree with you I think that I've always been a big proponent of solitude to understand who you are because as soon as you have another person you now have another person's opinions you have to filter yes as soon as you have another person in front of you you have another person's judgments to filter and so now you can't even say what you truly think about something because you're constantly thinking what does that person think about me and my beliefs and so understanding your beliefs in solitude allows you to be really clear about what your values and beliefs are and and that's what it's there for I think when people get into if we switch to compatibility again the idea we talked about the difference between connection and chemistry but compatibility is really interesting because a lot of people believe that relationships should be hard and they require hard work and a lot of people believe relationships should be easy and everything should just flow where have you kind of discovered your lens on that Spectrum so okay there's a there's a couple ways to look at it I think that most relationships and I'll even be more specific most relations that involve connection and true love are typically hard not because relationships have to be hard but because most people have been hurt by something in their life are holding on to past traumas haven't resolved it once they meet this individual that they feel so strongly about it is scary this is where things get difficult it's the difficultness in how do I handle this how do I manage this you'll have people feel like they're losing themselves but they're not losing themselves their true self is coming out and it's it's the self that's been hiding behind that wall they've been using for quote-unquote protection but I always say the same module to protect you the same as blocking your blessings so now they're being pulled from behind it it's it's makes them feel some kind of way and again people start to mishandle things you also have situations where people are getting bad advice like I'm gonna give one example um there's this uh book called The Game by Neil Strauss I don't know if you ever read that book yeah it was great Neil you know you you answer that world to pick up artistry we learned it and he was great with the women but then once he found that woman that he fell in love with all that stuff doesn't work anymore so you have a lot of men being taught how to handle women in general but they don't understand that's not how you handle the woman you truly love and so now again you have individuals who though they are truly in love with this person they constantly mishandle it with bad Guidance with fear and all these things this is what makes it hard and and I even think that a lot of times the people who are supposed to be together sometimes will have the hardest time getting together but I believe that once we're able to conquer that part of it and actually come together it's not hard yes it takes work I believe we have to be conscious and mindful of how we treat our partners how we show up being willing to listen but I think it's so much easier to do those things with someone you have a connection with and you're truly in love with it's gonna always feel ten times harder when you're in the wrong relationship and I would argue the vast majority of people are in the wrong relationship that's why they're seeing it be so difficult and when you see this whole it's easy typically it's easy because you have two people who are not digging deeper they're they're trying to write out that chemistry we talked about earlier for as long as possible all right so yeah it seems like it's great it's easy no issues but it doesn't really work like that because they're just not facing the reality of the situation so I think we we have to understand that there is going to be some bumps in the road because of all the things that people have been through but once we're able to come together and we know this is our partner this is who we want to share our life with it can get so much better yeah and do you do you think that people have just been given generally the wrong education on how to deal with another person in their life 100 yeah because unfortunately a lot of individuals are giving advice from a bit or hurt place there and and they're trying to disguise it as I'm just looking out for you no you you have inhaled and you cannot properly guide them in a positive and loving Manner and I think that a lot of people you know I always say it's funny how we'll spend a lot of time getting educated for the for the sake of our careers and business but we don't do the same for relationships and yet relationships arguably are even more important than that career business and even if it's not a romantic relationship just relationships in general your ability to coexist with others connect with others is extremely important if you want that business to succeed you have to learn how to establish business relationships there's no way around it so we have to learn how to talk to people listen to people you know what I'm saying and just make make things work when we come together with other individuals so I definitely think that we're just lacking in a lot of education and again too many because there's so many voices on the internet now there's just so much bad advice being given and and the individuals giving it they may be giving like let's say 80 of the advice is accurate but it's that 20 that's completely off that can derail everything and that's the stuff that people are gravitating to and this is causing a lot of problems can you give us some example of some of the like not specific people or anything like that I just mean like could you give example of bad advice and what about it is bad or unhealthy for people to try and put into practice okay so one thing I heard recently was an individual told uh said some of the best advice you can give to men is to not fall in love you know basically just find a woman you want to be with and kind of keep it there the reason why I view that as horrible advice is because you sit down with any man who's lived enough life they will all be able to say there's been at least one time they fail deeply for a woman all right the problem isn't falling deep before a woman the problem is we don't know how to handle it once we get there the problem is because we're not accustomed to handling and processing our emotions a certain kind of way and being this vulnerable we don't understand what's going to be required of us in that moment we also kind of lose sight of because I'm a big believer in masculine and feminine energy and I believe that if she was attracted to you because of that masculine energy that you give off and now you become this emotional wreck because you don't know how to handle all these feelings you have for her well you start to become less attractive to her and it's not that it's not fixable it's fixable but again a lack of understanding and awareness derails the situation so rather than telling men don't fall in love because it's inevitable let's teach them how we walk in love how we make what I call Loving in your masculine how you maintain that energy and still be able to pour into that woman in a way that allows relationship to flourish yeah and how does that work when I think obviously a lot of people in that example that you're giving if if the person is attracted to someone because of their masculine energy but at the same time they want them to be empathetic and compassionate and kind which are generally seen as more feminine energy how does that person balance the two or is that is that not how you're explaining is that no it's about balance so we have to understand we all have masculine and feminine of course within us I'm a Believer in one must be your dominant energy the other is the one you tap into when necessary so as a man you can walk in your masculine and in those moments tap into those things but you can't just stay there all the time all right you can't just become this needy emotional God that's not going to work in the vast majority of cases and so what happens is there's this messaging that's being thrown out there that women don't like good guys I don't believe that's what it is I believe that women become less attracted when you don't know how to exude and walk in your masculine energy it's and and we're hiding behind the label of good guy you can be a good guy and still exude masculine energy and that's the thing and we also think that oh they like bad boys no if you look deeper it's really the masculine energy that that quote-unquote bad boy exudes but what they desire is a mixture of both the same way that we would want a mixture of both we would want a loving sweet woman family woman whatever or and if you're a guy who wants a mask and woman cool but you don't want her to be just that you know you want her to have the ability to tap into that other side when necessary I think we all desire that balance in our partner and I think it's healthy and if we just learn how to maintain it and how to nurture it we would see greater success in relationships yeah what are some of the skills with with mastering that energy that you think we're missing out on and balancing that energy and knowing when to be which and because the reason why it's hard is I think we live in a binary world right like you feel like you have to choose like you're either a bad boy or you're a good girl you are a doer or you're a thinker you're uh winner or you're a loser right like we think like that and some people go okay you need to be masculine or I can be feminine and I I definitely relate to what you were saying like I believe that there is a lot about me that is massively masculine in energy using that language and terminology my drive my ambition how I work my strategic mind and at the same time I consider myself to have a lot of great feminine energy and qualities where it comes to like empowering others and nurturing and the ability to hold deep compassionate space and be empathetic which are all powerful qualities for for everyone right Beyond gender they're powerful qualities and I appreciate and it's taken a long time to know when to be which and it's still and I still make mistakes right there's still sometimes like I should have been more assertive I should have been more affectionate so we live in a world that finds it hard to hold two opposing ideas at the same time yeah we don't know how to do that in any sphere of life let alone within ourselves so what are some of the skills that we can learn in order to nurture both those energies in a healthy way inside of ourselves so I think one it's going to require a lot of if you're already in a relationship it's going to boil down to a lot of transparency and communication you know her if you're that man trying to understand that woman and when you can walk in those two energies her being willing to be honest and open about you know what this was too much over here or I needed some of this over here and in time you're going to become more aware and understanding it's going to be like second nature to you you won't have to overthink it and I think part of it is not overthinking it it's kind of like being ourselves but understanding that we have to learn when this is doing too much and vice versa I also think that in reality for a lot of men especially uh when we're talking about relationships and kind of losing that masculine energy the the underlying issue is fear all right when we become so afraid of losing this woman we lose ourselves and so a lot of men now fall into this very feminine needy space because they're just afraid we have to learn that listen like to me I feel if your partner thinks you're never gonna walk away from them no matter what they do you've lost that's that's a horrible place to be in we have to get to a place where we both understand that as long as we show up the way that we need to show up for each other we have each other's back we will be here but neither of us will tolerate an unhealthy relationship and someone who blatantly does not want to work on making this better I would want my the woman I'm with to feel that way and I need to feel that way once we understand that and you have the confidence of I can walk away if I have to that shifts your energy right there in itself and now you don't find yourself falling into that place where again you start to look a lot more unattractive or for some men they become yes men in their relationships thinking that makes her happy that's turning her off she doesn't want you to be her yes man she wants you to stand up for yourself sometimes give your opinion give your perspective she wants to be able to you know if anything be able to have discussions with you about these things not just you say whatever you want whatever you want whatever you want over time it becomes a problem so I think that once we conquer that fear once we create a space where we can talk about these moments and not feel some kind of way I think sometimes men are not they struggle with taking the criticism from their partner men and women we we all do when we feel when we have actual feelings for someone you know we don't care about you it's not as big of a deal but we're emotionally invested we're more sensitive to it but we have to understand that these criticisms are for the sake of making things better and strengthening this relationship so once we can get to that place it's going to be so much easier to grow in it and then I think it's just a matter of understanding that it's this balance isn't just for your relationship so look at it like from a sports perspective if I'm on a basketball team there may be moments where I need to take the lead and recognize all right everyone else is down someone needs to step up this is my moment and then there's other moments where I realize okay let's say we already have a team captain let me show them that I can follow serve do what needs to be done so that the team can win it's just becoming aware of what the moment requires you know and again I think the more in tune we get the more in tune we get with ourselves and the more in tune we get with our partner the easier it becomes to find that balance that's the challenge right the challenge is just how much patience we have with ourselves and others to realize that you walked into an imbalance unbalanced situation and now it's like how much patience how much time are we going to give it to get to that because the challenge is I think we walk into a situation thinking it's perfect whereas we should be walking into a relationship knowing it's imperfect absolutely and we're going to learn and figure it out together and I think that's what sets us up for failure is because we walk into it going it's perfect and deep down we know it isn't but somehow we gloss over it whereas I find when I know we're gonna fight when I know we're gonna argue and I know there's going to be disagreements that sets me up to develop the skills I need in order to navigate those things yes but if I assume like oh we're never gonna fight and I always get that right we always meet someone who goes to I mean a friend who goes to me Jay we never fight I'm like how long have you been together because I don't I don't know anyone who never fights I get that no one has to get to like yeah the heights of fights yeah I did that I did that it doesn't have to be a heated fight but I don't know anyone who doesn't disagree there you go all right right I think that's important for people to understand yeah there's a difference yes you have some individuals out there that'll say arguing is normal it's healthy and to me it's like listen if we're talking about arguing where we're now Crossing disrespectful lines negative lines you know the way that we the tone we take with each other all these things that's not healthy yes it may happen you should be prepared for that but it does let's not normalize it just gonna keep doing this and it's it is what it is but you're right to to be with each other long enough and never have a disagreement that's extremely rare okay extremely rare and I do think that again as you mentioned we have to be ready for those moments we have to understand and going back to how we find that balance especially as men and even for women it's recognizing so for example if my partner is in a very heated moment let's say she's in her masculine right now all right she's getting rough well meeting her with more masculine is probably going to only make things worse yeah this is the time for me to be compassionate go to her hold her calm her down bring her peace in that moment you see because it we need to balance each other out same thing on the flip side if I'm all heated and I'm I'm extra passionate and then my woman now comes with that same energy that's it now where button has this is her moment to say no let me now be the one to soften the moment up bring that Sweetness in there and everybody calms down so it's learning how to feed off of each other and recognize okay they're over here let me bring it back over here and now we can work from that point and we're both good the problem is that we all see compassion and sweetness and kindness in those moments as a weakness we don't want to be that person because we see that as losing we see that as giving in we see that as us losing our power and strength in a relationship if we become the comforter or if we become the carer right like that's that's a perception that is the perception and we have to change that that is the power position so who is more powerful the person that lets the energy dictate them how they're going to react or the person that brings the energy and dictates how they're going to make this situation play out so if I'm coming in to calm it down and being all sweet because I'm trying to bring peace here I'm in the power position I'm not losing anything I'm gonna gain more peace and happiness and Harmony if I succeed in what I'm trying to do so we have to get out of that mindset of this makes us weaker and that is the big key of it that's a big problem that for a lot of women who struggle with their feminine energy that's a big issue where they feel that being feminine is weakness it's what got them taken advantage of and got them hurt but I always say it's not the feminine energy that's the problem it's who you give it to do they respect it did they honor it you know it's the same thing as a man does she respect your masculine if she doesn't then that might just be a sign you're with the wrong person but don't stop being that guy because the woman who's best for you is going to need that in those moments that that's exactly what it is is that when people have been their best selves for the wrong person that person brings out the worst in them yes right like when someone's been their best loving kindness self but someone took advantage of it that person now thinks next time I've got to be aggressive I've got to be you know powerful I've got to be strong in this way and I feel like that's kind of what most people are dealing with we know that is that you're just dealing with a wounded version of someone yes not a healed version of someone but I think people struggle to trust again and again especially when they see the same patterns in the person they're weird and I guess the question is why do we keep making the same mistakes because I feel like a lot of us keep dating the same people yeah and there's a part of us that also just keeps closing off or being more wounded it's almost like if you cut yourself you now walk around with your hand over that you don't want to get cut again and then if you lead it off and it gets cut even deeper now you're even more conscious of that and so I find that people are doing that where they're closing their heart more and more because it's been so misused and abused and I understand that I understand people don't want to be abused and misused but I guess the question is how do people find people that they know respect them so that they can be their best version or be a better version of themselves so you know you can't drive out Darkness with more Darkness you can't expose someone who's gonna hurt you by being someone who's closed off and holding back yourself we have it's kind of what we were just talking about we have to look at being vulnerable loving and open as not just well I'm setting myself to be hurt no it's how you expose people faster if I come with that energy and you cannot respect it match it then I know you don't belong here but if I hold back I give you a free pass to hold back so now we have two individuals who are hiding behind their walls because it's comfortable there but you can't really see what's what do we really have in front of us those walls are blinding you and you can't properly evaluate the situation so one we we got to get to a place of healing from our past so that we're not just walking around with the hand over the cut no you you gotta let the cup breathe you gotta let it heal all right holding on put your hand on there is delaying the process and like you said all that's gonna happen is when you finally take your hand off but you're taking it off with the wrong person and you haven't learned see what I want people to realize is your actions weren't the problem meaning you being loving sweet kind compassionate wasn't the problem it was the person separate those two things that you don't stop doing the good things now granted are there levels to this to where we have to learn again if I'm thinking about a man if you got so deeply emotional to where you kind of lost your your masculine energy and you became very needy okay you can say all right I need to continue to be loving but I know I have to learn how to draw a line I have to learn how not to cross that moment and again you only crossed it because you were unhealthy to begin with you only cross it because you were afraid to begin with once you get to that place where you're healthy and confident you won't find yourself Crossing that line anymore yeah you won't tolerate certain things anymore so we have to heal we have to be confident and we have to let our light shine so that we can expose what's in front of us easier that's a brilliant answer I I love the differentiation between how sharing your light is not the problem the person's the problem because we yeah we start to doubt whether being a good person a loving person is actually what wins in the world yeah and the truth is that it does win but it has to win with someone who can receive it and absolutely hold that space with you and share that space with you and I find that a lot of people keep giving that energy to the wrong person because we feel we can make them better right like there's this feeling of like I can change this person I can make them better I can heal them there's some of us want to fix people yeah and that means we assume the person we're with is broken and I think this is such a subconscious thing like if you're always critiquing if you're always picking at stuff with your partner chances are you don't think they're great like just now you think there's some issues with them when you think that you can fix them and they're broken tell us about that angle where now we're almost we've talked about being the loving and kind person but sometimes we're being the person that thinks we're loving and kind because we want to improve someone but that person doesn't want to improve one big problem is that what's really driving people to pick that individual is that by being the one that can upgrade you improve you I have more value here by having more value I have a false sense of security you have to appreciate me you're less likely to walk away you're less likely to cheat because you're lucky to have me I feel like I'm the prize here but those situations never really work because again you're choosing someone that is not capable of pouring into you the way you need you're basing this off of what you could do for them and that's not sustainable and you're choosing them because again you have more emotional control here what happens to so many people especially women it's something that I call the unhealthy love cycle of women where women in their first love experience outside of any childhood trauma may have experienced they're their most loving they're just out there they go all the way in but that typically happens at a younger age at an age where men are not mature enough to handle those kind of emotions that level of commitment so on and so forth so she gets hurt after she gets hurt her moment is saying to herself I will never let this happen to me again so now the woman starts to consciously or subconsciously choose men who are I don't want to say lower than hurt but essentially a man who does not take her there he's good enough to be with but I'm not that vulnerable with him he can't hurt me like that first love hurt me and so that Dynamic usually leads to picking that person I can fix I can make better who will appreciate and respect me but again it doesn't work out and many times you'll see these same situations the guy will move on to cheat on her not because and I have to say this because some women think yeah he's just being a man no not because he's a man but because you chose a man that you could never be the woman that he needed and he could never be the man that you needed once he kind of either gets what he needs from you to build himself up or the Smoke Clears from him being infatuated with you he starts to realize I'm not getting everything that I desire and now you building him up has brought him more attention from other women so now the the difference between what you're not giving him and what someone else is willing to give him becomes way clearer now the Temptation gets way stronger and he ends up doing something or she ends up cheating as well because he's safe but he doesn't fulfill her he doesn't satisfy her he he doesn't excite her in any kind of way and that's why I always said earlier like the safe choice is almost always the wrong choice but that is a function of people trying to choose these fix or uppers because they think it's going to give them some leverage there it's leverage that's it yeah it's leverage yeah how do you know when it's time to go like how do you know when it's like I feel like this is a common question where it's like how do you know when it's just I've tried everything we've tried together tried our best maybe we went to therapy maybe we got a coach or maybe you know maybe we didn't do those things how do I just know that I feel like I need to go but I'm scared of being alone yeah I'm I'm scared of dealing with the reality that I put in a lot of energy and I feel like you said this earlier but a lot of people stay in something for a lot longer than they should because they'd rather not be alone yes they'd rather not face reality they'd rather not lose two years of their life they'd rather lose two more thinking that this this should stay like how do you know when it's time to go let me first say this yes I think I think Society needs to change their thinking as far as Letting Go doesn't always mean it can't work out later it's just that it cannot work out under these circumstances all right because some people say well I feel like they're the one okay maybe they are but maybe the time is not right and it's letting go that will allow you both to do what needs to be done in your own personal lives that would allow you to come back together and have something way more amazing so that's number one thing to consider but outside of that it's when one if that person is unwilling to put in the work necessary it's time to go there's like so many times I'll I'll have a video go up about communication and someone will comment saying I've tried talking to him and he doesn't want to talk to me and in my head I'm like why are you still with them if he refuses to talk to you you've already tried there's nothing else to do but people will let it Linger on and continue why they can why they consistently complain or unhappy about this specific issue it's not gonna magically get better they're not gonna just change it just because all of a sudden they see oh it needs to change no if they're fighting it now they have no reason to change it and what people have to understand you know especially with this whole trying to fix people up healing and facing your traumas is one of the hardest things for people to do so if they already have you in their life they're essentially getting the incentive or the benefit of relationship without having to do the deeper work it's almost like if I'm at a job and the job says you need to have a master's degree to work here but we're going to hire you anyway and give you time to get that master's degree if getting that degree is super hard to you you're gonna drag that out as long as possible yeah you may never get the degree until they fire you when they fire you and you realize oh my gosh if I don't do this I'll never get this person back I'll never get this opportunity back now they might go and get it because it's very tough to walk down the path of the healing process so if they're not willing to work on it you guys have already discussed it and I think that's a big thing because there's a lot of relationships that end and the couples don't even know what the real issue was so the communication they'll say well we talked about no you guys argued you guys lashed out there wasn't a clear communication as to what the problem was what is expected how do we go about this if you've done that and I believe one of the most effective ways to do that is through a letter because I feel like verbal communication of deep issues and concerns they typically don't go well you know people get distracted they forget what they want to say the other person gets defensive they're not they're listening to rebuttal not to understand but when there's a letter involved it gives you time to get everything out you can you can evaluate your tone leave no stone unturned and now they have an opportunity to process it on their time to really take it in and then you guys can come together and discuss the letter and now it's so much easier to stay on point and get everything covered if we've done that and they're still unwilling or there's still no progress It's Time to Go yeah that's great that's great advice and I for me that's the biggest one it's like you can't make something last if only one person's working on it you can't keep hoping and waiting and wishing and and like you said that ending doesn't mean forever and often I found that two people need to grow individually to be able to grow collectively and we're forcing growing together so hard but we need space to grow and if you can't grow together chances are you need to grow apart in order to see whether you grow together again or grow for someone else and all of those options are okay but we put so much pressure on people to grow together that they grow apart yeah and actually if they chose to grow apart and grow separately they could come back together if they learn the lessons and I think that's a mistake too though sometimes people think I'm gonna go learn this lesson for this person I meet a lot of people they're like okay they broke up with me because I wasn't XYZ now I'm gonna go become XYZ to win them back yeah and I always find I'm just like well no you should go become XYZ if you think you were missing XYZ but not to win them back because you don't know what they're gonna do what's your take on people trying to win people back so I 100 agree with you like if we're trying to learn or grow it needs to be for the benefit of who we are and just whoever we deal with so was almost like if I was a bad Communicator in this relationship I shouldn't learn to better communicate for that person I need to better communicate for whoever I'm going to be with if you can't see it in that light then maybe you're looking at the wrong thing my thing is this I think it all depends on what the details of the situation was what led to the breakup what were you overlooking what was missing are these fixable issues because a lot of people are trying to win back someone where the issues are not resolved so it's like what's the point of going back we're just going to go in the same cycle all over again they're letting this idea of I miss them I don't want to be without them blind them from the fact that you two did not get along well or you two don't want the same things or YouTube just whatever it is maybe there's a lack of sexual satisfaction I don't know why I feel the need to mention that but it happens a lot of times you have to stay focused on what led to the end and can this be corrected if it can cool but as you mentioned listen correcting it does not guarantee you they're coming back and even if they will come back you don't know when they may need so you may have figured yourself out in six months they might need a year and I would argue if you guys are truly meant for each other and at the end of the year you need a year too you're just overlooking some things and you're rushing the process because you want to get back to them yeah it's I've never found a situation where it was truly only one person who had problems and the other person was squeaky clean no no you thought you were but you got some stuff too you needed to correct of course so I think we have to be honest with ourselves and just keep striving to be better and rather than focus on winning them back just become the best you because if you do and there's a true connection there the opportunity will present itself again and you too will be able to make something of it and the struggle is that when people finally make that decision to break up or let go the study showed that the parts of your brain that are activated in a breakup are the same as detoxing from cocaine right like you're literally trying to detox so you can have a craving yeah for someone that's bad for you yeah or also it says that the areas of the brain that are activated in a breakup are the areas that are the same with physical pain so if someone like punching the stomach the reason why we say like my heart feels broken is because it literally feels like something's broken yeah so when you're going through a breakup when you're feeling the craving to be with that person again studies show that eight over eighty percent of people are looking at what their exes are doing on social media right probably through a Finster account or whatever but you have to you have to know what are some of the healthiest tips that you've given to people and the people that you've worked with that have genuinely helped people move through a breaker the first thing is to ask yourself again why was I even there why am I holding on to this individual again I think sometimes we get so blinded by just the experience or our desire to have this person for whatever reason that we Overlook what was really missing or why this could not work anyway what you'll also find is and I'm sure there's probably a study on it where if you if they broke up with you you ever see a situation it happens on TV a lot where the person could be like okay I'm gonna break up with my partner they're planning on it they've been practicing in their head right it took them a couple weeks to muster up the strength they're about to do it and then the partner breaks up with them yeah now it's oh my gosh I gotta get them back yeah so it's like you just forgot this whole time that was your plan yeah it just gave you the past to do it but now because we don't like to be the one being let go of now we're fighting hard to get it back yeah so we have to really not fall into these little traps that happen to us as human beings our brains just playing tricks on us or something where we confuse these emotions for oh my gosh I must really love them or even like you said you go into that detox and because you miss I always tell people no matter how bad the relationship was there's always good moments so if you're trying to break free you can't just let your brain focus on the good moments you have to remind yourself why this doesn't work but if you keep focusing on the good you start to make yourself think oh because I missed this good moment I must miss them and there's this quote that says sometimes you're not missing the person you're missing the feeling so you've got to be able to differentiate those two things so getting back to how we get over these breakups is recognizing why were we really there to begin with you know could this actually work the next thing is you know I'm a huge believer that a lot of times a breakup is a blessing in disguise even if there is a chance that you two can work together or this is the one for you you may have needed this time to re-evaluate and get things in order something is obviously wrong even if you it may be something as deep as because I've seen situations where everything was going amazingly well on the surface and the person broke up with them let's say the woman lets go of the man so to the man that's really confusing but what it was is that that woman she had not healed from her past relationships and this relationship being so good was scaring her and what happens is the the better you are the scarier it becomes for her she's looking for something to be wrong she has to validate her fear somehow wow when she can't find it she'll either sabotage the relationship or she'll run from it So to that man it may seem like this is so unfair which yeah it sucks but if this woman didn't break up with you now you were inevitably gonna face this same ending but at a worse time yeah all right this is still best that is happening now at least if she can go do what she needs to do there's a chance for this to come back around later but it's hard for us to see it in the moment so I think just really we also have to focus on our healing whenever a breakup happens the mistake we make is that we think it's about healing from the breakup no it's healing from everything you've been through you've probably been sleeping under the rug your childhood trauma for years maybe the last two three relationships whatever it is so and and not healing from those things is contributing to your struggle to get past this breakup and contributing to why you even chose this person to begin with I'm a huge believer that if you haven't healed you are 90 likely to choose the wrong person yeah it's just too difficult to pick that person that you truly love and can truly love you and accept that level of vulnerability when you have still not resolved your past traumas and past hurts yeah so to me that's the next big thing is just focus on your healing process because in that process you will also be able to see more clearly if this is really for you or not like walking around unhealed is like walking around with broken glasses you you can't see straight no matter how hard you try but healing will clear up your vision really really fast and now it'd be like oh wait a minute I didn't belong there yeah you know thank God the broke breakup happened you know now I'm in a better place I move forward so to me I think and I would say in addition to those things is just have an accountability partner whether that's friend coach therapist someone that can help keep you in check help remind you what you need to do someone that you know you have to talk to and update what's going on so you feel like okay I don't want to come back so I'm saying I'm doing the same thing over and over again it doesn't guarantee success but it helps it helps move the needle some so I would highly encourage that that one mindset you spoke about that that changes everything and it hit me today I was just thinking if we were just able in a moment to recognize that something painful now was going to be good for us in five years time that would change so many things in our life yes but we're so poor at dealing with current pain yeah even if it means future joy that we just can't accept that I have to go through this like in everything right like knowing that someone breaking up with you just saved you 10 years of a wasted life is so much more than knowing you're gonna have to go through a few months of pain and 10 months of pain maybe it's a bit longer maybe it's two three years but we just have to get our head around that that sometimes the best things that happen to you are protecting more of your life than the pain that they're causing you need the Peace of knowing I did what I needed to do that's it yeah because anytime you feel like well maybe I could have done this but I could have done that leaves the door open for doubt do it well exactly so it's like and that's why I'm such a big believer in you know there's people who say well once they're done they're done they'll just move on and I'm like no no Express Yourself get everything off your chest because you don't need anything to linger and you questioning well what if I did this different no make sure speak your full piece and now you can say all right I did what I had to do it is what it is I move forward and I mean it makes it easier it may not make it a hundred percent you know not an issue whatsoever but it's gonna be easier and also also for me that's why like my relationship with God is so important because that's where I find my peace in dealing with a situation that doesn't work out the way I want to I always tell myself okay if this isn't working out God has something better for me you know if this is happening right now there's a purpose because I know if I followed his guidance throughout this process there's no need for me to question why is this the current outcome there's a reason for this and I've been through these things enough times to see as you mentioned the reward is going to come it may come next week it may come years from now it will come and I'll be able to see how it all connected yeah Stefan it's been incredible talking to you man this has been such a great back-to-back flowing conversation uh we end every on purpose episode with the final five which is like a rapid fire which means every question has to be answered with one word to one sentence maximum okay so here are your final five the first question is what's the best relationship advice you've ever received or heard or given it is to love fully lovefully and be yourself because as I said earlier that's how you will expose quicker who is for you and who isn't for you second question what is the worst relationship advice you've ever heard or received get under someone to get over someone [Laughter] uh question number three uh how would you defin	love with them I think that's your first key because without that nothing else matters because a lot of people are choosing Partners based off of what they love me so much so I assume it's safe here and this is a good choice to make but the safe choice is usually the wrong choice and a lot of these people select this individual thinking everything's going to be okay but because you're not really into them you can never be what they need and they were never truly what you needed which is why you never even got to that level with them so to choose them without first evaluating do you truly love them would not be wise yeah that's that's a great question and I think people struggle with that question too because I think we think of love as so many different things wrapped into one for example I could think I love someone because of how they treat me I could think I love someone because they have one quality that I really wish I had or I could love someone because I think that they're out of my league and they give me a bit of attention yeah and so what we think is love is so complex and so wide that we never stop to ask ourselves like what does love mean like what's the definition of love like how do I Define love so how do you define love and how do	6	4	2	love with them I think that's your first key because without that nothing else matters because a lot of people are choosing Partners based off of what they love me so much so I assume it's safe here and this is a good choice to make but the safe choice is usually the wrong choice and a lot of these people select this individual thinking everything's going to be okay but because you're not really into them you can never be what they need and they were never truly what you needed which is why you never even got to that level with them so to choose them without first evaluating do you truly love them would not be wise	yeah that's that's a great question and I think people struggle with that question too because I think we think of love as so many different things wrapped into one for example I could think I love someone because of how they treat me I could think I love someone because they have one quality that I really wish I had or I could love someone because I think that they're out of my league and they give me a bit of attention yeah and so what we think is love is so complex and so wide that we never stop to ask ourselves like what does love mean like what's the definition of love like how do I Define love so how do you define love and how do	3,-1,6	6,2,8	3	-1	6	6	2	8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPQBcb9wf8Q	4,056	mPQBcb9wf8Q	2023-03-27 00:00:00	you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you're wasting your time the best-selling author and host the number one Health and Wellness podcast on purpose with Jay Shetty what are the signs that someone deeply loves you because I feel like we live in this world where we're always wondering do they love me do they like me do they really like me are they really into me how do you know when you deeply love someone and when someone deeply loves you how do you even know so I'm gonna start with an answer that people probably won't expect to me the first key is do you truly love them because look at it like this to me a lot of people get caught up in infatuation um they have unhealthy attachments they have different motivations to why they decided this is the person that I want and that can make them feel like they're in love but to me true love flows both ways it's not a one-sided thing so when you can say I I'm not into them like that if we look deep into that situation I can almost guarantee what we'll find is infatuation attachment something else but when you can say no I feel it too I'm deeply in love with them I think that's your first key because without that nothing else matters because a lot of people are choosing Partners based off of what they love me so much so I assume it's safe here and this is a good choice to make but the safe choice is usually the wrong choice and a lot of these people select this individual thinking everything's going to be okay but because you're not really into them you can never be what they need and they were never truly what you needed which is why you never even got to that level with them so to choose them without first evaluating do you truly love them would not be wise yeah that's that's a great question and I think people struggle with that question too because I think we think of love as so many different things wrapped into one for example I could think I love someone because of how they treat me I could think I love someone because they have one quality that I really wish I had or I could love someone because I think that they're out of my league and they give me a bit of attention yeah and so what we think is love is so complex and so wide that we never stop to ask ourselves like what does love mean like what's the definition of love like how do I Define love so how do you define love and how do you encourage other people to create their definitions of Love well for me first off is always God is love and then when we take it from there love is about kindness compassion patience understanding a willingness to be selfless important to that individual but I think what's also important for people to understand is when we're trying to apply it to romantic relationships we have to understand that there's other ingredients that are necessary before we can move forward so you could love someone dearly but if they are not emotionally ready because maybe they haven't healed from their past maybe there's still some things that need to work out in their life then it wouldn't be time to move forward in a relationship with them and we have this bad habit of the minute we feel like there's love there we want to move forward exactly and as you mentioned we can get caught up sometimes in but we love them because of what they do for us but what are you prepared to do for them love is about giving all right so we have to ask ourselves okay do we know what their needs are are we willing to fulfill those needs because if not maybe this wasn't love maybe it just felt good in the moment maybe you got caught up in the hype and that's okay it happens to almost all of us if not all of us at some point in life but we have to just be real very clear with ourselves about what's really driving the intention right now but I think all those things I mentioned is what encompasses love of and that's like the foundation of it and then from there we have to look at some other things to see how we can move forward so many times like you you convince yourself something's love and what I find really interesting is that so many people fall in love too fast and no one wants to go for the slow patient understanding love which is what love requires you just said love is kind love is patient love is understanding those things take time I think those things take time to nurture and to to make sure that we're doing it correctly for each other so it's about learning each other's Love Languages and how we make it work in within that Dynamic I think also because so many people are not used to dealing with emotions at on that level being that vulnerable people mishandle it all right so it takes time for us to get to a place so we understand how to manage this and work through this however I think that I'm a huge believer in connection and I believe connection is like your spirit recognizing its match and it's very instant when you speak to couples who said they experience a connection they'll tell you first conversation first time meeting first date first week it was pretty fast so to me the the recognizing of something deeper being here can happen very quickly but how we now cultivate that and how we move forward is where we need to take our time and make sure we're not rushing and overlooking certain important issues that need to be discussed and addressed first to me it's the understanding of chemistry versus compatibility and the idea that there needs to be a spark there needs to be a connection that I feel with someone like you're saying on a deeper level but I find that I find that most people are not Adept and knowing whether the connection they feel with someone is deeper or physical yeah like I would say that it's easy to it you can often feel a spark with if you meet a lot of people you can feel a spot with a lot of people but that doesn't mean that they're the right person to build a relationship absolutely right yes so it's connection to me is a very rare occurrence right yes so I feel that people who've actually experienced it they can tell you maybe once in their life if you're lucky two times maybe all right but it's not this thing that happens with everybody whereas chemistry uh feeling of spark these things can happen with a lot of different people yeah so I do think there's there's this education that's needed to understand how we differentiate these things so that we don't confuse them because I see a lot of people take that chemistry and think oh this is it this is the one it's like but you had chemistry with the last five people why is this one the one and not them so I do think we have to be careful with that yeah I think so so we're on the same page there's three things there's connection on the deeper level there's chemistry which is like the spark on a more superficial level and then there's compatibility which is like what makes get lost and I can relate to that with my wife I definitely felt so I I'm one of those people who I kind of knew from the first few moments when I met my wife before she was my wife was like I was like yeah this is my person like I felt that way yeah for sure I felt that connection and there was chemistry there too but it had to be turned into compatibility in order to create a long lasting relationship we've been together for 10 years we're still learning building going through everything but that was a big part of it so that I can get behind is do you see it that way too or is there something different in so how do you see it believe it or not I used to make compatibility the least important but that was because I was looking at it the wrong way once I kind of looked at the definition again and compatibility is about two people coexisting in harmony yeah then I was like okay no you you have to have that I just I got caught up more so in like let's say a dating site says okay we're gonna decide who's compatible so I view compatible as like an on the paper it looks good it's supposed to match but you can have a lot of people who are supposed to be compatible and it doesn't work absolutely so I think that it's compatibility is that add-on once we have the connection and the chemistry now we have to create that Harmony which is the compatibility yes I agree with you and and it is interesting how that word compatibility is thrown around and you're so right that compatibility on paper doesn't mean compatibility in real life exactly and to me compatibility really has another word inside of it which is like adaptability and that deeper understanding of an individual where you know how much you're willing to adapt around certain parts of the relationship but we'll get to that I think a lot of people like you know and and that's where we got into this conversation around what is slow a lot of people are waiting to feel like is this person wasting my time are they the one and so they don't have a deeper connection maybe they had that spark of chemistry and now that's kind of subsided how do you know if someone's wasting your time how do you know if you're letting yourself be used or wasted in that way so to me again I think it always starts with self and you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you because just use an example let's say you're a woman and the only reason why you're holding on to this guy is because he's a nice guy you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you figure let me try to make it work you're wasting your time this is where you're setting yourself up for disaster every single time so if it's not born out of a true connection love a genuine desire you really like this individual of course there's always things we have to work through but is the foundation strong enough for us to say okay we can make something special here and I think once we are honest with ourselves that kind of helps answer the question because sometimes we get so caught up trying to animal lies the other individual that is like we get in our heads and now we're missing the mark on what's really important here and we can't always say for sure what's going on with them I will say that in general if this person isn't willing to talk about things they're wasting your time if they're not willing to address or correct things that have been talked about they're wasting your time if you guys aren't on the same page about what you want and where you want to go in life wasting time so there are some things I think we can just look at and say listen this is pointless here but a lot of times and I have to say this especially for women women's intuition is extremely powerful I'm a huge believer in it and I feel like women know very early this isn't it but they rationalize reasons to convince themselves to give this man a chance and this again is a waste of time because it just doesn't work I've seen people turn what should have been maybe a couple weeks of dating into years of being married to someone they were not happy with all because they did not listen to themselves from the beginning they knew what it was but they just could not accept it for what it was yeah and I love that point on intuition it's almost like when a relationship finally ends a lot of us think to ourselves I knew they weren't right yeah like I knew it I knew that they weren't the one but you just didn't listen to that part of yourself yes so so let's break it down for people let's help people out we started talking about three very important words connection which you defined chemistry which we've defined in compatibility which we've defined how do people know the difference between connection and chemistry when they meet someone because I find that the science shows that you're experiencing dopamine and cortisol at the same times you're experiencing the reward chemical and stress chemical at the same time which gives you that chemistry feeling which is the feeling of butterflies in your stomach or like do they like me are they into me what should I wear that kind of feeling but then you're talking about a deeper connection how do you hear the difference because I think a lot of us just get swept up in the feeling of I'm So Into that person they're so into me how do you know so I think one is are you even being yourself or can you be yourself with this individual if if you're presenting your representative then this is not a real connection this is them falling for that person that you're presenting but that's not real so to me you have you should be already being yourself but with that person you have a connection with it's a more natural flow we don't have to force it we just feel so much more comfortable around them I think in addition to that is when you when you find yourself all caught up in the moment and caught up in that chemistry again you have to ask yourself what am I really attaching myself to what about what do I really like about this individual what I find is that when it's really about chemistry we're still on the surface you don't really know about them yet you just know you guys had a good time maybe you had fun at this event you guys were able to talk about a lot of different things which is great which is gonna also be important if there is a connection however do you even know what college did they want do you know what kind of Life they want to live you know are you guys really on the same page I think connection is our paths align our purpose is align so for us to align we have to have a deeper understanding of where we're headed and can we head there together so so that's why I think though you may feel it or you may feel like you're feeling it you have to do your due diligence to dig deeper to find out okay is this just I got caught up on the surface or there is something real here yeah and I think once we ask enough questions because I think that's the other big problem we have this experience where we feel this chemistry we're so excited and now we're afraid to ask questions because we don't want to blow up the fantasy yes you know what I'm saying we're just like no no I want to keep believing this is great so let me not ask anything let me not run this person away let me not rock the boat but that's going to be what tells us if this is real or not yes I think you're I think you've hit on something there like we're so scared of losing someone that we're okay with not asking important questions and discovering important truths that actually define whether this relationship is going to last absolutely and that is ultimately going back to your point earlier that is ultimately you not being yourself right you're losing yourself scared that you're going to lose the other person so you're okay with not being yourself do you think it's ever okay this is a funny question I think but I have to ask you because I think it's a healthy discussion do you think it's ever okay to present different sides of yourself in order to attract someone or do you think that you're ultimately setting yourself up for failure in a relationship almost like I think a lot of people they may not become someone completely different but I think a lot of people are like oh I'm gonna show my smart side because it will attract this person or I'm gonna show my this side because they're like that are you saying any of that kind of molding is unhealthy or do you think there's room for that I think anything that is not sustainable is unhealthy so look at it as if I'm a man and I'm meeting this woman I want to impress her so I'm like okay I'm gonna try to spend all my money take a nice five-star restaurant all these things but deep inside I prefer a more simple lifestyle you know I don't like all that extra stuff okay that's horrible that's a sale for disaster that's unhealthy because you can't sustain what you're presenting to that individual that's gonna draw them in so whatever it is another like common example is you'll have women who love to communicate they want to be able to talk to you every single day but because they're afraid of coming off a certain kind of way they'll hold back on their communication so now they'll make it seem like they're okay with talking every now and then we don't always have to text and then this guy falls for that he falls for this low standard I won't call low standard but not having such a high expectation of him when it comes to communication then he finally gets with the woman her true self is going to come out at some point no one can suppress their true self forever it comes out and now it's like what is this I did not sign up for this now we're fighting now we're stressed because you want him to call you more he was used to you not being worried about it so much that's why it's going to always not work out so it's extremely unhealthy unless we're presenting a side of us that is truly us and we can sustain it you've hit on something again that that at the beginning of relationships we often display unrealistic standards and we set those yes and then when things shift and now you're back in reality again the other person's like but wait a minute I thought you were really into me and I even went through that with my wife when we first met I was able to spend pretty much every day with her because I didn't have a job and so I was looking for work I was applying I would go see her at her College every day and I would spend the day with her and I'd be in the library applying for jobs while she was studying yeah and I could see it every day and I think I saw every day potentially for like six months maybe every single day five days a week at least and then when I got a job that wasn't the case anymore because I was at work now and I'd set this unrealistic expectation that we could see each other all the time and even in the beginning I would see her all the time because I'd spend time with her family but we wouldn't spend time with my family because I hadn't told my family yet and so now that my family knew we were trying to split the time and all of a sudden it was like wait a minute we used to spend time at my house and so even in little things like that it took a bit of adapting because I'd set a false standard in our relationship and then thankfully my wife was adapting and she understood and she got it and it was fine but I think for so many people you set unrealistic expectations in who you are yes and that's hard to come back from absolutely yeah and that's why it's so important for us to know who we are so that we can present the real from the jump you know because again A lot of times people you know this idea that we're always changing yes I do think we're always evolving but some of the big shifts that you see are is not because that's just the way life is it's because you did take the time to figure yourself out first and then you got with this person and now you want them to adjust now thank God for you she was able to adjust but there's a lot of people that they can't handle that yeah and now everything falls apart from there so that's why yeah we have to be very careful with what we're presenting from the beginning yeah it's I I agree with you on that that we think people change but actually they just start to understand themselves exactly they went from being completely unconscious about who they were you met an unconscious version of a person yeah and now you think they're changing but they just became conscious of who they are absolutely and but the thing is Stefan as you know like Society doesn't encourage that time of getting to know yourself right when you're young you're not trained in how to think about who you want to be you're trained in thinking about what you want to I do it's about your job it's about your career you're not thinking about who you are as a human being or as a person so how do we in this Society where understanding who you are is not clear it's not encouraged where where does one start or where have you kind of found great insights in trying to discover who we are I would love to see more parents encouraging their children to explore how they're feeling about who they are like what I have found is a lot of people who let's say I I had one client where she wanted to be an actress when she was a little kid uh but parents kind of push in a different direction now she's like a social worker but her desire is still to be an actress like the things that they they wanted to do they they want to do as an adult now you can find back in their childhood in a lot of cases so I feel like too many people have stifled their children's growth in certain areas with limited ideas of well this can't make money or this wouldn't be a good look for the family or whatever the case may be it's like no let them walk in it and see for themselves if that's really where they belong outside of that for me I think the big thing is getting in tune spiritually I'm just a huge believer in that I feel like me finding myself was when I went into what I call my Wilderness period I kind of just shut everything off that I was doing because I used to be all over having fun partying all these different things things and then God kind of slapped me upside my head and I had to like really pull away from everything and go deeper from within and it felt like a process of breaking me down to build me right back up and that's when I start to see things clearer because what I realized is the world is filled with distractions and it's the distractions why we can't see ourselves for who we really are if we simply shut off the distractions long enough you will learn a lot so even if someone just took a year off don't worry you know limit the TV you're watching limit the music you're listening to limit all the internet stuff just really go deeper within yourself spend more time alone spend more time you know thinking and processing you will learn a lot because again a lot of it is it isn't a problem of we don't know ourselves we are not aware and we're not willing to accept and once we allow ourselves to do those two things become aware and then accept it we become free yeah I I mean I agree with you I think that I've always been a big proponent of solitude to understand who you are because as soon as you have another person you now have another person's opinions you have to filter yes as soon as you have another person in front of you you have another person's judgments to filter and so now you can't even say what you truly think about something because you're constantly thinking what does that person think about me and my beliefs and so understanding your beliefs in solitude allows you to be really clear about what your values and beliefs are and and that's what it's there for I think when people get into if we switch to compatibility again the idea we talked about the difference between connection and chemistry but compatibility is really interesting because a lot of people believe that relationships should be hard and they require hard work and a lot of people believe relationships should be easy and everything should just flow where have you kind of discovered your lens on that Spectrum so okay there's a there's a couple ways to look at it I think that most relationships and I'll even be more specific most relations that involve connection and true love are typically hard not because relationships have to be hard but because most people have been hurt by something in their life are holding on to past traumas haven't resolved it once they meet this individual that they feel so strongly about it is scary this is where things get difficult it's the difficultness in how do I handle this how do I manage this you'll have people feel like they're losing themselves but they're not losing themselves their true self is coming out and it's it's the self that's been hiding behind that wall they've been using for quote-unquote protection but I always say the same module to protect you the same as blocking your blessings so now they're being pulled from behind it it's it's makes them feel some kind of way and again people start to mishandle things you also have situations where people are getting bad advice like I'm gonna give one example um there's this uh book called The Game by Neil Strauss I don't know if you ever read that book yeah it was great Neil you know you you answer that world to pick up artistry we learned it and he was great with the women but then once he found that woman that he fell in love with all that stuff doesn't work anymore so you have a lot of men being taught how to handle women in general but they don't understand that's not how you handle the woman you truly love and so now again you have individuals who though they are truly in love with this person they constantly mishandle it with bad Guidance with fear and all these things this is what makes it hard and and I even think that a lot of times the people who are supposed to be together sometimes will have the hardest time getting together but I believe that once we're able to conquer that part of it and actually come together it's not hard yes it takes work I believe we have to be conscious and mindful of how we treat our partners how we show up being willing to listen but I think it's so much easier to do those things with someone you have a connection with and you're truly in love with it's gonna always feel ten times harder when you're in the wrong relationship and I would argue the vast majority of people are in the wrong relationship that's why they're seeing it be so difficult and when you see this whole it's easy typically it's easy because you have two people who are not digging deeper they're they're trying to write out that chemistry we talked about earlier for as long as possible all right so yeah it seems like it's great it's easy no issues but it doesn't really work like that because they're just not facing the reality of the situation so I think we we have to understand that there is going to be some bumps in the road because of all the things that people have been through but once we're able to come together and we know this is our partner this is who we want to share our life with it can get so much better yeah and do you do you think that people have just been given generally the wrong education on how to deal with another person in their life 100 yeah because unfortunately a lot of individuals are giving advice from a bit or hurt place there and and they're trying to disguise it as I'm just looking out for you no you you have inhaled and you cannot properly guide them in a positive and loving Manner and I think that a lot of people you know I always say it's funny how we'll spend a lot of time getting educated for the for the sake of our careers and business but we don't do the same for relationships and yet relationships arguably are even more important than that career business and even if it's not a romantic relationship just relationships in general your ability to coexist with others connect with others is extremely important if you want that business to succeed you have to learn how to establish business relationships there's no way around it so we have to learn how to talk to people listen to people you know what I'm saying and just make make things work when we come together with other individuals so I definitely think that we're just lacking in a lot of education and again too many because there's so many voices on the internet now there's just so much bad advice being given and and the individuals giving it they may be giving like let's say 80 of the advice is accurate but it's that 20 that's completely off that can derail everything and that's the stuff that people are gravitating to and this is causing a lot of problems can you give us some example of some of the like not specific people or anything like that I just mean like could you give example of bad advice and what about it is bad or unhealthy for people to try and put into practice okay so one thing I heard recently was an individual told uh said some of the best advice you can give to men is to not fall in love you know basically just find a woman you want to be with and kind of keep it there the reason why I view that as horrible advice is because you sit down with any man who's lived enough life they will all be able to say there's been at least one time they fail deeply for a woman all right the problem isn't falling deep before a woman the problem is we don't know how to handle it once we get there the problem is because we're not accustomed to handling and processing our emotions a certain kind of way and being this vulnerable we don't understand what's going to be required of us in that moment we also kind of lose sight of because I'm a big believer in masculine and feminine energy and I believe that if she was attracted to you because of that masculine energy that you give off and now you become this emotional wreck because you don't know how to handle all these feelings you have for her well you start to become less attractive to her and it's not that it's not fixable it's fixable but again a lack of understanding and awareness derails the situation so rather than telling men don't fall in love because it's inevitable let's teach them how we walk in love how we make what I call Loving in your masculine how you maintain that energy and still be able to pour into that woman in a way that allows relationship to flourish yeah and how does that work when I think obviously a lot of people in that example that you're giving if if the person is attracted to someone because of their masculine energy but at the same time they want them to be empathetic and compassionate and kind which are generally seen as more feminine energy how does that person balance the two or is that is that not how you're explaining is that no it's about balance so we have to understand we all have masculine and feminine of course within us I'm a Believer in one must be your dominant energy the other is the one you tap into when necessary so as a man you can walk in your masculine and in those moments tap into those things but you can't just stay there all the time all right you can't just become this needy emotional God that's not going to work in the vast majority of cases and so what happens is there's this messaging that's being thrown out there that women don't like good guys I don't believe that's what it is I believe that women become less attracted when you don't know how to exude and walk in your masculine energy it's and and we're hiding behind the label of good guy you can be a good guy and still exude masculine energy and that's the thing and we also think that oh they like bad boys no if you look deeper it's really the masculine energy that that quote-unquote bad boy exudes but what they desire is a mixture of both the same way that we would want a mixture of both we would want a loving sweet woman family woman whatever or and if you're a guy who wants a mask and woman cool but you don't want her to be just that you know you want her to have the ability to tap into that other side when necessary I think we all desire that balance in our partner and I think it's healthy and if we just learn how to maintain it and how to nurture it we would see greater success in relationships yeah what are some of the skills with with mastering that energy that you think we're missing out on and balancing that energy and knowing when to be which and because the reason why it's hard is I think we live in a binary world right like you feel like you have to choose like you're either a bad boy or you're a good girl you are a doer or you're a thinker you're uh winner or you're a loser right like we think like that and some people go okay you need to be masculine or I can be feminine and I I definitely relate to what you were saying like I believe that there is a lot about me that is massively masculine in energy using that language and terminology my drive my ambition how I work my strategic mind and at the same time I consider myself to have a lot of great feminine energy and qualities where it comes to like empowering others and nurturing and the ability to hold deep compassionate space and be empathetic which are all powerful qualities for for everyone right Beyond gender they're powerful qualities and I appreciate and it's taken a long time to know when to be which and it's still and I still make mistakes right there's still sometimes like I should have been more assertive I should have been more affectionate so we live in a world that finds it hard to hold two opposing ideas at the same time yeah we don't know how to do that in any sphere of life let alone within ourselves so what are some of the skills that we can learn in order to nurture both those energies in a healthy way inside of ourselves so I think one it's going to require a lot of if you're already in a relationship it's going to boil down to a lot of transparency and communication you know her if you're that man trying to understand that woman and when you can walk in those two energies her being willing to be honest and open about you know what this was too much over here or I needed some of this over here and in time you're going to become more aware and understanding it's going to be like second nature to you you won't have to overthink it and I think part of it is not overthinking it it's kind of like being ourselves but understanding that we have to learn when this is doing too much and vice versa I also think that in reality for a lot of men especially uh when we're talking about relationships and kind of losing that masculine energy the the underlying issue is fear all right when we become so afraid of losing this woman we lose ourselves and so a lot of men now fall into this very feminine needy space because they're just afraid we have to learn that listen like to me I feel if your partner thinks you're never gonna walk away from them no matter what they do you've lost that's that's a horrible place to be in we have to get to a place where we both understand that as long as we show up the way that we need to show up for each other we have each other's back we will be here but neither of us will tolerate an unhealthy relationship and someone who blatantly does not want to work on making this better I would want my the woman I'm with to feel that way and I need to feel that way once we understand that and you have the confidence of I can walk away if I have to that shifts your energy right there in itself and now you don't find yourself falling into that place where again you start to look a lot more unattractive or for some men they become yes men in their relationships thinking that makes her happy that's turning her off she doesn't want you to be her yes man she wants you to stand up for yourself sometimes give your opinion give your perspective she wants to be able to you know if anything be able to have discussions with you about these things not just you say whatever you want whatever you want whatever you want over time it becomes a problem so I think that once we conquer that fear once we create a space where we can talk about these moments and not feel some kind of way I think sometimes men are not they struggle with taking the criticism from their partner men and women we we all do when we feel when we have actual feelings for someone you know we don't care about you it's not as big of a deal but we're emotionally invested we're more sensitive to it but we have to understand that these criticisms are for the sake of making things better and strengthening this relationship so once we can get to that place it's going to be so much easier to grow in it and then I think it's just a matter of understanding that it's this balance isn't just for your relationship so look at it like from a sports perspective if I'm on a basketball team there may be moments where I need to take the lead and recognize all right everyone else is down someone needs to step up this is my moment and then there's other moments where I realize okay let's say we already have a team captain let me show them that I can follow serve do what needs to be done so that the team can win it's just becoming aware of what the moment requires you know and again I think the more in tune we get the more in tune we get with ourselves and the more in tune we get with our partner the easier it becomes to find that balance that's the challenge right the challenge is just how much patience we have with ourselves and others to realize that you walked into an imbalance unbalanced situation and now it's like how much patience how much time are we going to give it to get to that because the challenge is I think we walk into a situation thinking it's perfect whereas we should be walking into a relationship knowing it's imperfect absolutely and we're going to learn and figure it out together and I think that's what sets us up for failure is because we walk into it going it's perfect and deep down we know it isn't but somehow we gloss over it whereas I find when I know we're gonna fight when I know we're gonna argue and I know there's going to be disagreements that sets me up to develop the skills I need in order to navigate those things yes but if I assume like oh we're never gonna fight and I always get that right we always meet someone who goes to I mean a friend who goes to me Jay we never fight I'm like how long have you been together because I don't I don't know anyone who never fights I get that no one has to get to like yeah the heights of fights yeah I did that I did that it doesn't have to be a heated fight but I don't know anyone who doesn't disagree there you go all right right I think that's important for people to understand yeah there's a difference yes you have some individuals out there that'll say arguing is normal it's healthy and to me it's like listen if we're talking about arguing where we're now Crossing disrespectful lines negative lines you know the way that we the tone we take with each other all these things that's not healthy yes it may happen you should be prepared for that but it does let's not normalize it just gonna keep doing this and it's it is what it is but you're right to to be with each other long enough and never have a disagreement that's extremely rare okay extremely rare and I do think that again as you mentioned we have to be ready for those moments we have to understand and going back to how we find that balance especially as men and even for women it's recognizing so for example if my partner is in a very heated moment let's say she's in her masculine right now all right she's getting rough well meeting her with more masculine is probably going to only make things worse yeah this is the time for me to be compassionate go to her hold her calm her down bring her peace in that moment you see because it we need to balance each other out same thing on the flip side if I'm all heated and I'm I'm extra passionate and then my woman now comes with that same energy that's it now where button has this is her moment to say no let me now be the one to soften the moment up bring that Sweetness in there and everybody calms down so it's learning how to feed off of each other and recognize okay they're over here let me bring it back over here and now we can work from that point and we're both good the problem is that we all see compassion and sweetness and kindness in those moments as a weakness we don't want to be that person because we see that as losing we see that as giving in we see that as us losing our power and strength in a relationship if we become the comforter or if we become the carer right like that's that's a perception that is the perception and we have to change that that is the power position so who is more powerful the person that lets the energy dictate them how they're going to react or the person that brings the energy and dictates how they're going to make this situation play out so if I'm coming in to calm it down and being all sweet because I'm trying to bring peace here I'm in the power position I'm not losing anything I'm gonna gain more peace and happiness and Harmony if I succeed in what I'm trying to do so we have to get out of that mindset of this makes us weaker and that is the big key of it that's a big problem that for a lot of women who struggle with their feminine energy that's a big issue where they feel that being feminine is weakness it's what got them taken advantage of and got them hurt but I always say it's not the feminine energy that's the problem it's who you give it to do they respect it did they honor it you know it's the same thing as a man does she respect your masculine if she doesn't then that might just be a sign you're with the wrong person but don't stop being that guy because the woman who's best for you is going to need that in those moments that that's exactly what it is is that when people have been their best selves for the wrong person that person brings out the worst in them yes right like when someone's been their best loving kindness self but someone took advantage of it that person now thinks next time I've got to be aggressive I've got to be you know powerful I've got to be strong in this way and I feel like that's kind of what most people are dealing with we know that is that you're just dealing with a wounded version of someone yes not a healed version of someone but I think people struggle to trust again and again especially when they see the same patterns in the person they're weird and I guess the question is why do we keep making the same mistakes because I feel like a lot of us keep dating the same people yeah and there's a part of us that also just keeps closing off or being more wounded it's almost like if you cut yourself you now walk around with your hand over that you don't want to get cut again and then if you lead it off and it gets cut even deeper now you're even more conscious of that and so I find that people are doing that where they're closing their heart more and more because it's been so misused and abused and I understand that I understand people don't want to be abused and misused but I guess the question is how do people find people that they know respect them so that they can be their best version or be a better version of themselves so you know you can't drive out Darkness with more Darkness you can't expose someone who's gonna hurt you by being someone who's closed off and holding back yourself we have it's kind of what we were just talking about we have to look at being vulnerable loving and open as not just well I'm setting myself to be hurt no it's how you expose people faster if I come with that energy and you cannot respect it match it then I know you don't belong here but if I hold back I give you a free pass to hold back so now we have two individuals who are hiding behind their walls because it's comfortable there but you can't really see what's what do we really have in front of us those walls are blinding you and you can't properly evaluate the situation so one we we got to get to a place of healing from our past so that we're not just walking around with the hand over the cut no you you gotta let the cup breathe you gotta let it heal all right holding on put your hand on there is delaying the process and like you said all that's gonna happen is when you finally take your hand off but you're taking it off with the wrong person and you haven't learned see what I want people to realize is your actions weren't the problem meaning you being loving sweet kind compassionate wasn't the problem it was the person separate those two things that you don't stop doing the good things now granted are there levels to this to where we have to learn again if I'm thinking about a man if you got so deeply emotional to where you kind of lost your your masculine energy and you became very needy okay you can say all right I need to continue to be loving but I know I have to learn how to draw a line I have to learn how not to cross that moment and again you only crossed it because you were unhealthy to begin with you only cross it because you were afraid to begin with once you get to that place where you're healthy and confident you won't find yourself Crossing that line anymore yeah you won't tolerate certain things anymore so we have to heal we have to be confident and we have to let our light shine so that we can expose what's in front of us easier that's a brilliant answer I I love the differentiation between how sharing your light is not the problem the person's the problem because we yeah we start to doubt whether being a good person a loving person is actually what wins in the world yeah and the truth is that it does win but it has to win with someone who can receive it and absolutely hold that space with you and share that space with you and I find that a lot of people keep giving that energy to the wrong person because we feel we can make them better right like there's this feeling of like I can change this person I can make them better I can heal them there's some of us want to fix people yeah and that means we assume the person we're with is broken and I think this is such a subconscious thing like if you're always critiquing if you're always picking at stuff with your partner chances are you don't think they're great like just now you think there's some issues with them when you think that you can fix them and they're broken tell us about that angle where now we're almost we've talked about being the loving and kind person but sometimes we're being the person that thinks we're loving and kind because we want to improve someone but that person doesn't want to improve one big problem is that what's really driving people to pick that individual is that by being the one that can upgrade you improve you I have more value here by having more value I have a false sense of security you have to appreciate me you're less likely to walk away you're less likely to cheat because you're lucky to have me I feel like I'm the prize here but those situations never really work because again you're choosing someone that is not capable of pouring into you the way you need you're basing this off of what you could do for them and that's not sustainable and you're choosing them because again you have more emotional control here what happens to so many people especially women it's something that I call the unhealthy love cycle of women where women in their first love experience outside of any childhood trauma may have experienced they're their most loving they're just out there they go all the way in but that typically happens at a younger age at an age where men are not mature enough to handle those kind of emotions that level of commitment so on and so forth so she gets hurt after she gets hurt her moment is saying to herself I will never let this happen to me again so now the woman starts to consciously or subconsciously choose men who are I don't want to say lower than hurt but essentially a man who does not take her there he's good enough to be with but I'm not that vulnerable with him he can't hurt me like that first love hurt me and so that Dynamic usually leads to picking that person I can fix I can make better who will appreciate and respect me but again it doesn't work out and many times you'll see these same situations the guy will move on to cheat on her not because and I have to say this because some women think yeah he's just being a man no not because he's a man but because you chose a man that you could never be the woman that he needed and he could never be the man that you needed once he kind of either gets what he needs from you to build himself up or the Smoke Clears from him being infatuated with you he starts to realize I'm not getting everything that I desire and now you building him up has brought him more attention from other women so now the the difference between what you're not giving him and what someone else is willing to give him becomes way clearer now the Temptation gets way stronger and he ends up doing something or she ends up cheating as well because he's safe but he doesn't fulfill her he doesn't satisfy her he he doesn't excite her in any kind of way and that's why I always said earlier like the safe choice is almost always the wrong choice but that is a function of people trying to choose these fix or uppers because they think it's going to give them some leverage there it's leverage that's it yeah it's leverage yeah how do you know when it's time to go like how do you know when it's like I feel like this is a common question where it's like how do you know when it's just I've tried everything we've tried together tried our best maybe we went to therapy maybe we got a coach or maybe you know maybe we didn't do those things how do I just know that I feel like I need to go but I'm scared of being alone yeah I'm I'm scared of dealing with the reality that I put in a lot of energy and I feel like you said this earlier but a lot of people stay in something for a lot longer than they should because they'd rather not be alone yes they'd rather not face reality they'd rather not lose two years of their life they'd rather lose two more thinking that this this should stay like how do you know when it's time to go let me first say this yes I think I think Society needs to change their thinking as far as Letting Go doesn't always mean it can't work out later it's just that it cannot work out under these circumstances all right because some people say well I feel like they're the one okay maybe they are but maybe the time is not right and it's letting go that will allow you both to do what needs to be done in your own personal lives that would allow you to come back together and have something way more amazing so that's number one thing to consider but outside of that it's when one if that person is unwilling to put in the work necessary it's time to go there's like so many times I'll I'll have a video go up about communication and someone will comment saying I've tried talking to him and he doesn't want to talk to me and in my head I'm like why are you still with them if he refuses to talk to you you've already tried there's nothing else to do but people will let it Linger on and continue why they can why they consistently complain or unhappy about this specific issue it's not gonna magically get better they're not gonna just change it just because all of a sudden they see oh it needs to change no if they're fighting it now they have no reason to change it and what people have to understand you know especially with this whole trying to fix people up healing and facing your traumas is one of the hardest things for people to do so if they already have you in their life they're essentially getting the incentive or the benefit of relationship without having to do the deeper work it's almost like if I'm at a job and the job says you need to have a master's degree to work here but we're going to hire you anyway and give you time to get that master's degree if getting that degree is super hard to you you're gonna drag that out as long as possible yeah you may never get the degree until they fire you when they fire you and you realize oh my gosh if I don't do this I'll never get this person back I'll never get this opportunity back now they might go and get it because it's very tough to walk down the path of the healing process so if they're not willing to work on it you guys have already discussed it and I think that's a big thing because there's a lot of relationships that end and the couples don't even know what the real issue was so the communication they'll say well we talked about no you guys argued you guys lashed out there wasn't a clear communication as to what the problem was what is expected how do we go about this if you've done that and I believe one of the most effective ways to do that is through a letter because I feel like verbal communication of deep issues and concerns they typically don't go well you know people get distracted they forget what they want to say the other person gets defensive they're not they're listening to rebuttal not to understand but when there's a letter involved it gives you time to get everything out you can you can evaluate your tone leave no stone unturned and now they have an opportunity to process it on their time to really take it in and then you guys can come together and discuss the letter and now it's so much easier to stay on point and get everything covered if we've done that and they're still unwilling or there's still no progress It's Time to Go yeah that's great that's great advice and I for me that's the biggest one it's like you can't make something last if only one person's working on it you can't keep hoping and waiting and wishing and and like you said that ending doesn't mean forever and often I found that two people need to grow individually to be able to grow collectively and we're forcing growing together so hard but we need space to grow and if you can't grow together chances are you need to grow apart in order to see whether you grow together again or grow for someone else and all of those options are okay but we put so much pressure on people to grow together that they grow apart yeah and actually if they chose to grow apart and grow separately they could come back together if they learn the lessons and I think that's a mistake too though sometimes people think I'm gonna go learn this lesson for this person I meet a lot of people they're like okay they broke up with me because I wasn't XYZ now I'm gonna go become XYZ to win them back yeah and I always find I'm just like well no you should go become XYZ if you think you were missing XYZ but not to win them back because you don't know what they're gonna do what's your take on people trying to win people back so I 100 agree with you like if we're trying to learn or grow it needs to be for the benefit of who we are and just whoever we deal with so was almost like if I was a bad Communicator in this relationship I shouldn't learn to better communicate for that person I need to better communicate for whoever I'm going to be with if you can't see it in that light then maybe you're looking at the wrong thing my thing is this I think it all depends on what the details of the situation was what led to the breakup what were you overlooking what was missing are these fixable issues because a lot of people are trying to win back someone where the issues are not resolved so it's like what's the point of going back we're just going to go in the same cycle all over again they're letting this idea of I miss them I don't want to be without them blind them from the fact that you two did not get along well or you two don't want the same things or YouTube just whatever it is maybe there's a lack of sexual satisfaction I don't know why I feel the need to mention that but it happens a lot of times you have to stay focused on what led to the end and can this be corrected if it can cool but as you mentioned listen correcting it does not guarantee you they're coming back and even if they will come back you don't know when they may need so you may have figured yourself out in six months they might need a year and I would argue if you guys are truly meant for each other and at the end of the year you need a year too you're just overlooking some things and you're rushing the process because you want to get back to them yeah it's I've never found a situation where it was truly only one person who had problems and the other person was squeaky clean no no you thought you were but you got some stuff too you needed to correct of course so I think we have to be honest with ourselves and just keep striving to be better and rather than focus on winning them back just become the best you because if you do and there's a true connection there the opportunity will present itself again and you too will be able to make something of it and the struggle is that when people finally make that decision to break up or let go the study showed that the parts of your brain that are activated in a breakup are the same as detoxing from cocaine right like you're literally trying to detox so you can have a craving yeah for someone that's bad for you yeah or also it says that the areas of the brain that are activated in a breakup are the areas that are the same with physical pain so if someone like punching the stomach the reason why we say like my heart feels broken is because it literally feels like something's broken yeah so when you're going through a breakup when you're feeling the craving to be with that person again studies show that eight over eighty percent of people are looking at what their exes are doing on social media right probably through a Finster account or whatever but you have to you have to know what are some of the healthiest tips that you've given to people and the people that you've worked with that have genuinely helped people move through a breaker the first thing is to ask yourself again why was I even there why am I holding on to this individual again I think sometimes we get so blinded by just the experience or our desire to have this person for whatever reason that we Overlook what was really missing or why this could not work anyway what you'll also find is and I'm sure there's probably a study on it where if you if they broke up with you you ever see a situation it happens on TV a lot where the person could be like okay I'm gonna break up with my partner they're planning on it they've been practicing in their head right it took them a couple weeks to muster up the strength they're about to do it and then the partner breaks up with them yeah now it's oh my gosh I gotta get them back yeah so it's like you just forgot this whole time that was your plan yeah it just gave you the past to do it but now because we don't like to be the one being let go of now we're fighting hard to get it back yeah so we have to really not fall into these little traps that happen to us as human beings our brains just playing tricks on us or something where we confuse these emotions for oh my gosh I must really love them or even like you said you go into that detox and because you miss I always tell people no matter how bad the relationship was there's always good moments so if you're trying to break free you can't just let your brain focus on the good moments you have to remind yourself why this doesn't work but if you keep focusing on the good you start to make yourself think oh because I missed this good moment I must miss them and there's this quote that says sometimes you're not missing the person you're missing the feeling so you've got to be able to differentiate those two things so getting back to how we get over these breakups is recognizing why were we really there to begin with you know could this actually work the next thing is you know I'm a huge believer that a lot of times a breakup is a blessing in disguise even if there is a chance that you two can work together or this is the one for you you may have needed this time to re-evaluate and get things in order something is obviously wrong even if you it may be something as deep as because I've seen situations where everything was going amazingly well on the surface and the person broke up with them let's say the woman lets go of the man so to the man that's really confusing but what it was is that that woman she had not healed from her past relationships and this relationship being so good was scaring her and what happens is the the better you are the scarier it becomes for her she's looking for something to be wrong she has to validate her fear somehow wow when she can't find it she'll either sabotage the relationship or she'll run from it So to that man it may seem like this is so unfair which yeah it sucks but if this woman didn't break up with you now you were inevitably gonna face this same ending but at a worse time yeah all right this is still best that is happening now at least if she can go do what she needs to do there's a chance for this to come back around later but it's hard for us to see it in the moment so I think just really we also have to focus on our healing whenever a breakup happens the mistake we make is that we think it's about healing from the breakup no it's healing from everything you've been through you've probably been sleeping under the rug your childhood trauma for years maybe the last two three relationships whatever it is so and and not healing from those things is contributing to your struggle to get past this breakup and contributing to why you even chose this person to begin with I'm a huge believer that if you haven't healed you are 90 likely to choose the wrong person yeah it's just too difficult to pick that person that you truly love and can truly love you and accept that level of vulnerability when you have still not resolved your past traumas and past hurts yeah so to me that's the next big thing is just focus on your healing process because in that process you will also be able to see more clearly if this is really for you or not like walking around unhealed is like walking around with broken glasses you you can't see straight no matter how hard you try but healing will clear up your vision really really fast and now it'd be like oh wait a minute I didn't belong there yeah you know thank God the broke breakup happened you know now I'm in a better place I move forward so to me I think and I would say in addition to those things is just have an accountability partner whether that's friend coach therapist someone that can help keep you in check help remind you what you need to do someone that you know you have to talk to and update what's going on so you feel like okay I don't want to come back so I'm saying I'm doing the same thing over and over again it doesn't guarantee success but it helps it helps move the needle some so I would highly encourage that that one mindset you spoke about that that changes everything and it hit me today I was just thinking if we were just able in a moment to recognize that something painful now was going to be good for us in five years time that would change so many things in our life yes but we're so poor at dealing with current pain yeah even if it means future joy that we just can't accept that I have to go through this like in everything right like knowing that someone breaking up with you just saved you 10 years of a wasted life is so much more than knowing you're gonna have to go through a few months of pain and 10 months of pain maybe it's a bit longer maybe it's two three years but we just have to get our head around that that sometimes the best things that happen to you are protecting more of your life than the pain that they're causing you need the Peace of knowing I did what I needed to do that's it yeah because anytime you feel like well maybe I could have done this but I could have done that leaves the door open for doubt do it well exactly so it's like and that's why I'm such a big believer in you know there's people who say well once they're done they're done they'll just move on and I'm like no no Express Yourself get everything off your chest because you don't need anything to linger and you questioning well what if I did this different no make sure speak your full piece and now you can say all right I did what I had to do it is what it is I move forward and I mean it makes it easier it may not make it a hundred percent you know not an issue whatsoever but it's gonna be easier and also also for me that's why like my relationship with God is so important because that's where I find my peace in dealing with a situation that doesn't work out the way I want to I always tell myself okay if this isn't working out God has something better for me you know if this is happening right now there's a purpose because I know if I followed his guidance throughout this process there's no need for me to question why is this the current outcome there's a reason for this and I've been through these things enough times to see as you mentioned the reward is going to come it may come next week it may come years from now it will come and I'll be able to see how it all connected yeah Stefan it's been incredible talking to you man this has been such a great back-to-back flowing conversation uh we end every on purpose episode with the final five which is like a rapid fire which means every question has to be answered with one word to one sentence maximum okay so here are your final five the first question is what's the best relationship advice you've ever received or heard or given it is to love fully lovefully and be yourself because as I said earlier that's how you will expose quicker who is for you and who isn't for you second question what is the worst relationship advice you've ever heard or received get under someone to get over someone [Laughter] uh question number three uh how would you defin	week it was pretty fast so to me the the recognizing of something deeper being here can happen very quickly but how we now cultivate that and how we move forward is where we need to take our time and make sure we're not rushing and overlooking certain important issues that need to be discussed and addressed first to me it's the understanding of chemistry versus compatibility and the idea that there needs to be a spark there needs to be a connection that I feel with someone like you're saying on a deeper level but I find that I find that most people are not Adept and knowing whether the connection they feel with someone is deeper or physical yeah like I would say that it's easy to it you can often feel a spark with if you meet a lot of people you can feel a spot with a lot of people but that doesn't mean that they're the right person to build a relationship absolutely right yes so it's connection to me is a very rare occurrence right yes so I feel that people who've actually experienced it they can tell you maybe once in their life if you're lucky two times maybe all right but it's not this thing that happens with everybody whereas chemistry uh feeling of spark these things can happen with a lot of different people yeah so I do think there's there's this education that's needed to understand how we differentiate these	5	3	7	week it was pretty fast so to me the the recognizing of something deeper being here can happen very quickly but how we now cultivate that and how we move forward is where we need to take our time and make sure we're not rushing and overlooking certain important issues that need to be discussed and addressed first to me it's the understanding of chemistry versus compatibility and the idea that there needs to be a spark there needs to be a connection that I feel with someone like you're saying on a deeper level but I find that I find that most people are not Adept and knowing whether the connection they feel with someone is deeper or physical yeah like I would say that it's easy to it you can often feel a spark with if you meet a lot of people you can feel a spot with a lot of people but that doesn't mean that they're the right person to build a relationship absolutely right yes so it's connection to me is a very rare occurrence right yes so I feel that people who've actually experienced it they can tell you maybe once in their life if you're lucky two times maybe all right but it's not this thing that happens with everybody whereas chemistry uh feeling of spark these things can happen with a lot of different people yeah so I do think there's there's this education that's needed to understand how we differentiate these	absolutely right yes	4,0,8	6,2,5	4	0	8	6	2	5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPQBcb9wf8Q	4,056	mPQBcb9wf8Q	2023-03-27 00:00:00	you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you're wasting your time the best-selling author and host the number one Health and Wellness podcast on purpose with Jay Shetty what are the signs that someone deeply loves you because I feel like we live in this world where we're always wondering do they love me do they like me do they really like me are they really into me how do you know when you deeply love someone and when someone deeply loves you how do you even know so I'm gonna start with an answer that people probably won't expect to me the first key is do you truly love them because look at it like this to me a lot of people get caught up in infatuation um they have unhealthy attachments they have different motivations to why they decided this is the person that I want and that can make them feel like they're in love but to me true love flows both ways it's not a one-sided thing so when you can say I I'm not into them like that if we look deep into that situation I can almost guarantee what we'll find is infatuation attachment something else but when you can say no I feel it too I'm deeply in love with them I think that's your first key because without that nothing else matters because a lot of people are choosing Partners based off of what they love me so much so I assume it's safe here and this is a good choice to make but the safe choice is usually the wrong choice and a lot of these people select this individual thinking everything's going to be okay but because you're not really into them you can never be what they need and they were never truly what you needed which is why you never even got to that level with them so to choose them without first evaluating do you truly love them would not be wise yeah that's that's a great question and I think people struggle with that question too because I think we think of love as so many different things wrapped into one for example I could think I love someone because of how they treat me I could think I love someone because they have one quality that I really wish I had or I could love someone because I think that they're out of my league and they give me a bit of attention yeah and so what we think is love is so complex and so wide that we never stop to ask ourselves like what does love mean like what's the definition of love like how do I Define love so how do you define love and how do you encourage other people to create their definitions of Love well for me first off is always God is love and then when we take it from there love is about kindness compassion patience understanding a willingness to be selfless important to that individual but I think what's also important for people to understand is when we're trying to apply it to romantic relationships we have to understand that there's other ingredients that are necessary before we can move forward so you could love someone dearly but if they are not emotionally ready because maybe they haven't healed from their past maybe there's still some things that need to work out in their life then it wouldn't be time to move forward in a relationship with them and we have this bad habit of the minute we feel like there's love there we want to move forward exactly and as you mentioned we can get caught up sometimes in but we love them because of what they do for us but what are you prepared to do for them love is about giving all right so we have to ask ourselves okay do we know what their needs are are we willing to fulfill those needs because if not maybe this wasn't love maybe it just felt good in the moment maybe you got caught up in the hype and that's okay it happens to almost all of us if not all of us at some point in life but we have to just be real very clear with ourselves about what's really driving the intention right now but I think all those things I mentioned is what encompasses love of and that's like the foundation of it and then from there we have to look at some other things to see how we can move forward so many times like you you convince yourself something's love and what I find really interesting is that so many people fall in love too fast and no one wants to go for the slow patient understanding love which is what love requires you just said love is kind love is patient love is understanding those things take time I think those things take time to nurture and to to make sure that we're doing it correctly for each other so it's about learning each other's Love Languages and how we make it work in within that Dynamic I think also because so many people are not used to dealing with emotions at on that level being that vulnerable people mishandle it all right so it takes time for us to get to a place so we understand how to manage this and work through this however I think that I'm a huge believer in connection and I believe connection is like your spirit recognizing its match and it's very instant when you speak to couples who said they experience a connection they'll tell you first conversation first time meeting first date first week it was pretty fast so to me the the recognizing of something deeper being here can happen very quickly but how we now cultivate that and how we move forward is where we need to take our time and make sure we're not rushing and overlooking certain important issues that need to be discussed and addressed first to me it's the understanding of chemistry versus compatibility and the idea that there needs to be a spark there needs to be a connection that I feel with someone like you're saying on a deeper level but I find that I find that most people are not Adept and knowing whether the connection they feel with someone is deeper or physical yeah like I would say that it's easy to it you can often feel a spark with if you meet a lot of people you can feel a spot with a lot of people but that doesn't mean that they're the right person to build a relationship absolutely right yes so it's connection to me is a very rare occurrence right yes so I feel that people who've actually experienced it they can tell you maybe once in their life if you're lucky two times maybe all right but it's not this thing that happens with everybody whereas chemistry uh feeling of spark these things can happen with a lot of different people yeah so I do think there's there's this education that's needed to understand how we differentiate these things so that we don't confuse them because I see a lot of people take that chemistry and think oh this is it this is the one it's like but you had chemistry with the last five people why is this one the one and not them so I do think we have to be careful with that yeah I think so so we're on the same page there's three things there's connection on the deeper level there's chemistry which is like the spark on a more superficial level and then there's compatibility which is like what makes get lost and I can relate to that with my wife I definitely felt so I I'm one of those people who I kind of knew from the first few moments when I met my wife before she was my wife was like I was like yeah this is my person like I felt that way yeah for sure I felt that connection and there was chemistry there too but it had to be turned into compatibility in order to create a long lasting relationship we've been together for 10 years we're still learning building going through everything but that was a big part of it so that I can get behind is do you see it that way too or is there something different in so how do you see it believe it or not I used to make compatibility the least important but that was because I was looking at it the wrong way once I kind of looked at the definition again and compatibility is about two people coexisting in harmony yeah then I was like okay no you you have to have that I just I got caught up more so in like let's say a dating site says okay we're gonna decide who's compatible so I view compatible as like an on the paper it looks good it's supposed to match but you can have a lot of people who are supposed to be compatible and it doesn't work absolutely so I think that it's compatibility is that add-on once we have the connection and the chemistry now we have to create that Harmony which is the compatibility yes I agree with you and and it is interesting how that word compatibility is thrown around and you're so right that compatibility on paper doesn't mean compatibility in real life exactly and to me compatibility really has another word inside of it which is like adaptability and that deeper understanding of an individual where you know how much you're willing to adapt around certain parts of the relationship but we'll get to that I think a lot of people like you know and and that's where we got into this conversation around what is slow a lot of people are waiting to feel like is this person wasting my time are they the one and so they don't have a deeper connection maybe they had that spark of chemistry and now that's kind of subsided how do you know if someone's wasting your time how do you know if you're letting yourself be used or wasted in that way so to me again I think it always starts with self and you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you because just use an example let's say you're a woman and the only reason why you're holding on to this guy is because he's a nice guy you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you figure let me try to make it work you're wasting your time this is where you're setting yourself up for disaster every single time so if it's not born out of a true connection love a genuine desire you really like this individual of course there's always things we have to work through but is the foundation strong enough for us to say okay we can make something special here and I think once we are honest with ourselves that kind of helps answer the question because sometimes we get so caught up trying to animal lies the other individual that is like we get in our heads and now we're missing the mark on what's really important here and we can't always say for sure what's going on with them I will say that in general if this person isn't willing to talk about things they're wasting your time if they're not willing to address or correct things that have been talked about they're wasting your time if you guys aren't on the same page about what you want and where you want to go in life wasting time so there are some things I think we can just look at and say listen this is pointless here but a lot of times and I have to say this especially for women women's intuition is extremely powerful I'm a huge believer in it and I feel like women know very early this isn't it but they rationalize reasons to convince themselves to give this man a chance and this again is a waste of time because it just doesn't work I've seen people turn what should have been maybe a couple weeks of dating into years of being married to someone they were not happy with all because they did not listen to themselves from the beginning they knew what it was but they just could not accept it for what it was yeah and I love that point on intuition it's almost like when a relationship finally ends a lot of us think to ourselves I knew they weren't right yeah like I knew it I knew that they weren't the one but you just didn't listen to that part of yourself yes so so let's break it down for people let's help people out we started talking about three very important words connection which you defined chemistry which we've defined in compatibility which we've defined how do people know the difference between connection and chemistry when they meet someone because I find that the science shows that you're experiencing dopamine and cortisol at the same times you're experiencing the reward chemical and stress chemical at the same time which gives you that chemistry feeling which is the feeling of butterflies in your stomach or like do they like me are they into me what should I wear that kind of feeling but then you're talking about a deeper connection how do you hear the difference because I think a lot of us just get swept up in the feeling of I'm So Into that person they're so into me how do you know so I think one is are you even being yourself or can you be yourself with this individual if if you're presenting your representative then this is not a real connection this is them falling for that person that you're presenting but that's not real so to me you have you should be already being yourself but with that person you have a connection with it's a more natural flow we don't have to force it we just feel so much more comfortable around them I think in addition to that is when you when you find yourself all caught up in the moment and caught up in that chemistry again you have to ask yourself what am I really attaching myself to what about what do I really like about this individual what I find is that when it's really about chemistry we're still on the surface you don't really know about them yet you just know you guys had a good time maybe you had fun at this event you guys were able to talk about a lot of different things which is great which is gonna also be important if there is a connection however do you even know what college did they want do you know what kind of Life they want to live you know are you guys really on the same page I think connection is our paths align our purpose is align so for us to align we have to have a deeper understanding of where we're headed and can we head there together so so that's why I think though you may feel it or you may feel like you're feeling it you have to do your due diligence to dig deeper to find out okay is this just I got caught up on the surface or there is something real here yeah and I think once we ask enough questions because I think that's the other big problem we have this experience where we feel this chemistry we're so excited and now we're afraid to ask questions because we don't want to blow up the fantasy yes you know what I'm saying we're just like no no I want to keep believing this is great so let me not ask anything let me not run this person away let me not rock the boat but that's going to be what tells us if this is real or not yes I think you're I think you've hit on something there like we're so scared of losing someone that we're okay with not asking important questions and discovering important truths that actually define whether this relationship is going to last absolutely and that is ultimately going back to your point earlier that is ultimately you not being yourself right you're losing yourself scared that you're going to lose the other person so you're okay with not being yourself do you think it's ever okay this is a funny question I think but I have to ask you because I think it's a healthy discussion do you think it's ever okay to present different sides of yourself in order to attract someone or do you think that you're ultimately setting yourself up for failure in a relationship almost like I think a lot of people they may not become someone completely different but I think a lot of people are like oh I'm gonna show my smart side because it will attract this person or I'm gonna show my this side because they're like that are you saying any of that kind of molding is unhealthy or do you think there's room for that I think anything that is not sustainable is unhealthy so look at it as if I'm a man and I'm meeting this woman I want to impress her so I'm like okay I'm gonna try to spend all my money take a nice five-star restaurant all these things but deep inside I prefer a more simple lifestyle you know I don't like all that extra stuff okay that's horrible that's a sale for disaster that's unhealthy because you can't sustain what you're presenting to that individual that's gonna draw them in so whatever it is another like common example is you'll have women who love to communicate they want to be able to talk to you every single day but because they're afraid of coming off a certain kind of way they'll hold back on their communication so now they'll make it seem like they're okay with talking every now and then we don't always have to text and then this guy falls for that he falls for this low standard I won't call low standard but not having such a high expectation of him when it comes to communication then he finally gets with the woman her true self is going to come out at some point no one can suppress their true self forever it comes out and now it's like what is this I did not sign up for this now we're fighting now we're stressed because you want him to call you more he was used to you not being worried about it so much that's why it's going to always not work out so it's extremely unhealthy unless we're presenting a side of us that is truly us and we can sustain it you've hit on something again that that at the beginning of relationships we often display unrealistic standards and we set those yes and then when things shift and now you're back in reality again the other person's like but wait a minute I thought you were really into me and I even went through that with my wife when we first met I was able to spend pretty much every day with her because I didn't have a job and so I was looking for work I was applying I would go see her at her College every day and I would spend the day with her and I'd be in the library applying for jobs while she was studying yeah and I could see it every day and I think I saw every day potentially for like six months maybe every single day five days a week at least and then when I got a job that wasn't the case anymore because I was at work now and I'd set this unrealistic expectation that we could see each other all the time and even in the beginning I would see her all the time because I'd spend time with her family but we wouldn't spend time with my family because I hadn't told my family yet and so now that my family knew we were trying to split the time and all of a sudden it was like wait a minute we used to spend time at my house and so even in little things like that it took a bit of adapting because I'd set a false standard in our relationship and then thankfully my wife was adapting and she understood and she got it and it was fine but I think for so many people you set unrealistic expectations in who you are yes and that's hard to come back from absolutely yeah and that's why it's so important for us to know who we are so that we can present the real from the jump you know because again A lot of times people you know this idea that we're always changing yes I do think we're always evolving but some of the big shifts that you see are is not because that's just the way life is it's because you did take the time to figure yourself out first and then you got with this person and now you want them to adjust now thank God for you she was able to adjust but there's a lot of people that they can't handle that yeah and now everything falls apart from there so that's why yeah we have to be very careful with what we're presenting from the beginning yeah it's I I agree with you on that that we think people change but actually they just start to understand themselves exactly they went from being completely unconscious about who they were you met an unconscious version of a person yeah and now you think they're changing but they just became conscious of who they are absolutely and but the thing is Stefan as you know like Society doesn't encourage that time of getting to know yourself right when you're young you're not trained in how to think about who you want to be you're trained in thinking about what you want to I do it's about your job it's about your career you're not thinking about who you are as a human being or as a person so how do we in this Society where understanding who you are is not clear it's not encouraged where where does one start or where have you kind of found great insights in trying to discover who we are I would love to see more parents encouraging their children to explore how they're feeling about who they are like what I have found is a lot of people who let's say I I had one client where she wanted to be an actress when she was a little kid uh but parents kind of push in a different direction now she's like a social worker but her desire is still to be an actress like the things that they they wanted to do they they want to do as an adult now you can find back in their childhood in a lot of cases so I feel like too many people have stifled their children's growth in certain areas with limited ideas of well this can't make money or this wouldn't be a good look for the family or whatever the case may be it's like no let them walk in it and see for themselves if that's really where they belong outside of that for me I think the big thing is getting in tune spiritually I'm just a huge believer in that I feel like me finding myself was when I went into what I call my Wilderness period I kind of just shut everything off that I was doing because I used to be all over having fun partying all these different things things and then God kind of slapped me upside my head and I had to like really pull away from everything and go deeper from within and it felt like a process of breaking me down to build me right back up and that's when I start to see things clearer because what I realized is the world is filled with distractions and it's the distractions why we can't see ourselves for who we really are if we simply shut off the distractions long enough you will learn a lot so even if someone just took a year off don't worry you know limit the TV you're watching limit the music you're listening to limit all the internet stuff just really go deeper within yourself spend more time alone spend more time you know thinking and processing you will learn a lot because again a lot of it is it isn't a problem of we don't know ourselves we are not aware and we're not willing to accept and once we allow ourselves to do those two things become aware and then accept it we become free yeah I I mean I agree with you I think that I've always been a big proponent of solitude to understand who you are because as soon as you have another person you now have another person's opinions you have to filter yes as soon as you have another person in front of you you have another person's judgments to filter and so now you can't even say what you truly think about something because you're constantly thinking what does that person think about me and my beliefs and so understanding your beliefs in solitude allows you to be really clear about what your values and beliefs are and and that's what it's there for I think when people get into if we switch to compatibility again the idea we talked about the difference between connection and chemistry but compatibility is really interesting because a lot of people believe that relationships should be hard and they require hard work and a lot of people believe relationships should be easy and everything should just flow where have you kind of discovered your lens on that Spectrum so okay there's a there's a couple ways to look at it I think that most relationships and I'll even be more specific most relations that involve connection and true love are typically hard not because relationships have to be hard but because most people have been hurt by something in their life are holding on to past traumas haven't resolved it once they meet this individual that they feel so strongly about it is scary this is where things get difficult it's the difficultness in how do I handle this how do I manage this you'll have people feel like they're losing themselves but they're not losing themselves their true self is coming out and it's it's the self that's been hiding behind that wall they've been using for quote-unquote protection but I always say the same module to protect you the same as blocking your blessings so now they're being pulled from behind it it's it's makes them feel some kind of way and again people start to mishandle things you also have situations where people are getting bad advice like I'm gonna give one example um there's this uh book called The Game by Neil Strauss I don't know if you ever read that book yeah it was great Neil you know you you answer that world to pick up artistry we learned it and he was great with the women but then once he found that woman that he fell in love with all that stuff doesn't work anymore so you have a lot of men being taught how to handle women in general but they don't understand that's not how you handle the woman you truly love and so now again you have individuals who though they are truly in love with this person they constantly mishandle it with bad Guidance with fear and all these things this is what makes it hard and and I even think that a lot of times the people who are supposed to be together sometimes will have the hardest time getting together but I believe that once we're able to conquer that part of it and actually come together it's not hard yes it takes work I believe we have to be conscious and mindful of how we treat our partners how we show up being willing to listen but I think it's so much easier to do those things with someone you have a connection with and you're truly in love with it's gonna always feel ten times harder when you're in the wrong relationship and I would argue the vast majority of people are in the wrong relationship that's why they're seeing it be so difficult and when you see this whole it's easy typically it's easy because you have two people who are not digging deeper they're they're trying to write out that chemistry we talked about earlier for as long as possible all right so yeah it seems like it's great it's easy no issues but it doesn't really work like that because they're just not facing the reality of the situation so I think we we have to understand that there is going to be some bumps in the road because of all the things that people have been through but once we're able to come together and we know this is our partner this is who we want to share our life with it can get so much better yeah and do you do you think that people have just been given generally the wrong education on how to deal with another person in their life 100 yeah because unfortunately a lot of individuals are giving advice from a bit or hurt place there and and they're trying to disguise it as I'm just looking out for you no you you have inhaled and you cannot properly guide them in a positive and loving Manner and I think that a lot of people you know I always say it's funny how we'll spend a lot of time getting educated for the for the sake of our careers and business but we don't do the same for relationships and yet relationships arguably are even more important than that career business and even if it's not a romantic relationship just relationships in general your ability to coexist with others connect with others is extremely important if you want that business to succeed you have to learn how to establish business relationships there's no way around it so we have to learn how to talk to people listen to people you know what I'm saying and just make make things work when we come together with other individuals so I definitely think that we're just lacking in a lot of education and again too many because there's so many voices on the internet now there's just so much bad advice being given and and the individuals giving it they may be giving like let's say 80 of the advice is accurate but it's that 20 that's completely off that can derail everything and that's the stuff that people are gravitating to and this is causing a lot of problems can you give us some example of some of the like not specific people or anything like that I just mean like could you give example of bad advice and what about it is bad or unhealthy for people to try and put into practice okay so one thing I heard recently was an individual told uh said some of the best advice you can give to men is to not fall in love you know basically just find a woman you want to be with and kind of keep it there the reason why I view that as horrible advice is because you sit down with any man who's lived enough life they will all be able to say there's been at least one time they fail deeply for a woman all right the problem isn't falling deep before a woman the problem is we don't know how to handle it once we get there the problem is because we're not accustomed to handling and processing our emotions a certain kind of way and being this vulnerable we don't understand what's going to be required of us in that moment we also kind of lose sight of because I'm a big believer in masculine and feminine energy and I believe that if she was attracted to you because of that masculine energy that you give off and now you become this emotional wreck because you don't know how to handle all these feelings you have for her well you start to become less attractive to her and it's not that it's not fixable it's fixable but again a lack of understanding and awareness derails the situation so rather than telling men don't fall in love because it's inevitable let's teach them how we walk in love how we make what I call Loving in your masculine how you maintain that energy and still be able to pour into that woman in a way that allows relationship to flourish yeah and how does that work when I think obviously a lot of people in that example that you're giving if if the person is attracted to someone because of their masculine energy but at the same time they want them to be empathetic and compassionate and kind which are generally seen as more feminine energy how does that person balance the two or is that is that not how you're explaining is that no it's about balance so we have to understand we all have masculine and feminine of course within us I'm a Believer in one must be your dominant energy the other is the one you tap into when necessary so as a man you can walk in your masculine and in those moments tap into those things but you can't just stay there all the time all right you can't just become this needy emotional God that's not going to work in the vast majority of cases and so what happens is there's this messaging that's being thrown out there that women don't like good guys I don't believe that's what it is I believe that women become less attracted when you don't know how to exude and walk in your masculine energy it's and and we're hiding behind the label of good guy you can be a good guy and still exude masculine energy and that's the thing and we also think that oh they like bad boys no if you look deeper it's really the masculine energy that that quote-unquote bad boy exudes but what they desire is a mixture of both the same way that we would want a mixture of both we would want a loving sweet woman family woman whatever or and if you're a guy who wants a mask and woman cool but you don't want her to be just that you know you want her to have the ability to tap into that other side when necessary I think we all desire that balance in our partner and I think it's healthy and if we just learn how to maintain it and how to nurture it we would see greater success in relationships yeah what are some of the skills with with mastering that energy that you think we're missing out on and balancing that energy and knowing when to be which and because the reason why it's hard is I think we live in a binary world right like you feel like you have to choose like you're either a bad boy or you're a good girl you are a doer or you're a thinker you're uh winner or you're a loser right like we think like that and some people go okay you need to be masculine or I can be feminine and I I definitely relate to what you were saying like I believe that there is a lot about me that is massively masculine in energy using that language and terminology my drive my ambition how I work my strategic mind and at the same time I consider myself to have a lot of great feminine energy and qualities where it comes to like empowering others and nurturing and the ability to hold deep compassionate space and be empathetic which are all powerful qualities for for everyone right Beyond gender they're powerful qualities and I appreciate and it's taken a long time to know when to be which and it's still and I still make mistakes right there's still sometimes like I should have been more assertive I should have been more affectionate so we live in a world that finds it hard to hold two opposing ideas at the same time yeah we don't know how to do that in any sphere of life let alone within ourselves so what are some of the skills that we can learn in order to nurture both those energies in a healthy way inside of ourselves so I think one it's going to require a lot of if you're already in a relationship it's going to boil down to a lot of transparency and communication you know her if you're that man trying to understand that woman and when you can walk in those two energies her being willing to be honest and open about you know what this was too much over here or I needed some of this over here and in time you're going to become more aware and understanding it's going to be like second nature to you you won't have to overthink it and I think part of it is not overthinking it it's kind of like being ourselves but understanding that we have to learn when this is doing too much and vice versa I also think that in reality for a lot of men especially uh when we're talking about relationships and kind of losing that masculine energy the the underlying issue is fear all right when we become so afraid of losing this woman we lose ourselves and so a lot of men now fall into this very feminine needy space because they're just afraid we have to learn that listen like to me I feel if your partner thinks you're never gonna walk away from them no matter what they do you've lost that's that's a horrible place to be in we have to get to a place where we both understand that as long as we show up the way that we need to show up for each other we have each other's back we will be here but neither of us will tolerate an unhealthy relationship and someone who blatantly does not want to work on making this better I would want my the woman I'm with to feel that way and I need to feel that way once we understand that and you have the confidence of I can walk away if I have to that shifts your energy right there in itself and now you don't find yourself falling into that place where again you start to look a lot more unattractive or for some men they become yes men in their relationships thinking that makes her happy that's turning her off she doesn't want you to be her yes man she wants you to stand up for yourself sometimes give your opinion give your perspective she wants to be able to you know if anything be able to have discussions with you about these things not just you say whatever you want whatever you want whatever you want over time it becomes a problem so I think that once we conquer that fear once we create a space where we can talk about these moments and not feel some kind of way I think sometimes men are not they struggle with taking the criticism from their partner men and women we we all do when we feel when we have actual feelings for someone you know we don't care about you it's not as big of a deal but we're emotionally invested we're more sensitive to it but we have to understand that these criticisms are for the sake of making things better and strengthening this relationship so once we can get to that place it's going to be so much easier to grow in it and then I think it's just a matter of understanding that it's this balance isn't just for your relationship so look at it like from a sports perspective if I'm on a basketball team there may be moments where I need to take the lead and recognize all right everyone else is down someone needs to step up this is my moment and then there's other moments where I realize okay let's say we already have a team captain let me show them that I can follow serve do what needs to be done so that the team can win it's just becoming aware of what the moment requires you know and again I think the more in tune we get the more in tune we get with ourselves and the more in tune we get with our partner the easier it becomes to find that balance that's the challenge right the challenge is just how much patience we have with ourselves and others to realize that you walked into an imbalance unbalanced situation and now it's like how much patience how much time are we going to give it to get to that because the challenge is I think we walk into a situation thinking it's perfect whereas we should be walking into a relationship knowing it's imperfect absolutely and we're going to learn and figure it out together and I think that's what sets us up for failure is because we walk into it going it's perfect and deep down we know it isn't but somehow we gloss over it whereas I find when I know we're gonna fight when I know we're gonna argue and I know there's going to be disagreements that sets me up to develop the skills I need in order to navigate those things yes but if I assume like oh we're never gonna fight and I always get that right we always meet someone who goes to I mean a friend who goes to me Jay we never fight I'm like how long have you been together because I don't I don't know anyone who never fights I get that no one has to get to like yeah the heights of fights yeah I did that I did that it doesn't have to be a heated fight but I don't know anyone who doesn't disagree there you go all right right I think that's important for people to understand yeah there's a difference yes you have some individuals out there that'll say arguing is normal it's healthy and to me it's like listen if we're talking about arguing where we're now Crossing disrespectful lines negative lines you know the way that we the tone we take with each other all these things that's not healthy yes it may happen you should be prepared for that but it does let's not normalize it just gonna keep doing this and it's it is what it is but you're right to to be with each other long enough and never have a disagreement that's extremely rare okay extremely rare and I do think that again as you mentioned we have to be ready for those moments we have to understand and going back to how we find that balance especially as men and even for women it's recognizing so for example if my partner is in a very heated moment let's say she's in her masculine right now all right she's getting rough well meeting her with more masculine is probably going to only make things worse yeah this is the time for me to be compassionate go to her hold her calm her down bring her peace in that moment you see because it we need to balance each other out same thing on the flip side if I'm all heated and I'm I'm extra passionate and then my woman now comes with that same energy that's it now where button has this is her moment to say no let me now be the one to soften the moment up bring that Sweetness in there and everybody calms down so it's learning how to feed off of each other and recognize okay they're over here let me bring it back over here and now we can work from that point and we're both good the problem is that we all see compassion and sweetness and kindness in those moments as a weakness we don't want to be that person because we see that as losing we see that as giving in we see that as us losing our power and strength in a relationship if we become the comforter or if we become the carer right like that's that's a perception that is the perception and we have to change that that is the power position so who is more powerful the person that lets the energy dictate them how they're going to react or the person that brings the energy and dictates how they're going to make this situation play out so if I'm coming in to calm it down and being all sweet because I'm trying to bring peace here I'm in the power position I'm not losing anything I'm gonna gain more peace and happiness and Harmony if I succeed in what I'm trying to do so we have to get out of that mindset of this makes us weaker and that is the big key of it that's a big problem that for a lot of women who struggle with their feminine energy that's a big issue where they feel that being feminine is weakness it's what got them taken advantage of and got them hurt but I always say it's not the feminine energy that's the problem it's who you give it to do they respect it did they honor it you know it's the same thing as a man does she respect your masculine if she doesn't then that might just be a sign you're with the wrong person but don't stop being that guy because the woman who's best for you is going to need that in those moments that that's exactly what it is is that when people have been their best selves for the wrong person that person brings out the worst in them yes right like when someone's been their best loving kindness self but someone took advantage of it that person now thinks next time I've got to be aggressive I've got to be you know powerful I've got to be strong in this way and I feel like that's kind of what most people are dealing with we know that is that you're just dealing with a wounded version of someone yes not a healed version of someone but I think people struggle to trust again and again especially when they see the same patterns in the person they're weird and I guess the question is why do we keep making the same mistakes because I feel like a lot of us keep dating the same people yeah and there's a part of us that also just keeps closing off or being more wounded it's almost like if you cut yourself you now walk around with your hand over that you don't want to get cut again and then if you lead it off and it gets cut even deeper now you're even more conscious of that and so I find that people are doing that where they're closing their heart more and more because it's been so misused and abused and I understand that I understand people don't want to be abused and misused but I guess the question is how do people find people that they know respect them so that they can be their best version or be a better version of themselves so you know you can't drive out Darkness with more Darkness you can't expose someone who's gonna hurt you by being someone who's closed off and holding back yourself we have it's kind of what we were just talking about we have to look at being vulnerable loving and open as not just well I'm setting myself to be hurt no it's how you expose people faster if I come with that energy and you cannot respect it match it then I know you don't belong here but if I hold back I give you a free pass to hold back so now we have two individuals who are hiding behind their walls because it's comfortable there but you can't really see what's what do we really have in front of us those walls are blinding you and you can't properly evaluate the situation so one we we got to get to a place of healing from our past so that we're not just walking around with the hand over the cut no you you gotta let the cup breathe you gotta let it heal all right holding on put your hand on there is delaying the process and like you said all that's gonna happen is when you finally take your hand off but you're taking it off with the wrong person and you haven't learned see what I want people to realize is your actions weren't the problem meaning you being loving sweet kind compassionate wasn't the problem it was the person separate those two things that you don't stop doing the good things now granted are there levels to this to where we have to learn again if I'm thinking about a man if you got so deeply emotional to where you kind of lost your your masculine energy and you became very needy okay you can say all right I need to continue to be loving but I know I have to learn how to draw a line I have to learn how not to cross that moment and again you only crossed it because you were unhealthy to begin with you only cross it because you were afraid to begin with once you get to that place where you're healthy and confident you won't find yourself Crossing that line anymore yeah you won't tolerate certain things anymore so we have to heal we have to be confident and we have to let our light shine so that we can expose what's in front of us easier that's a brilliant answer I I love the differentiation between how sharing your light is not the problem the person's the problem because we yeah we start to doubt whether being a good person a loving person is actually what wins in the world yeah and the truth is that it does win but it has to win with someone who can receive it and absolutely hold that space with you and share that space with you and I find that a lot of people keep giving that energy to the wrong person because we feel we can make them better right like there's this feeling of like I can change this person I can make them better I can heal them there's some of us want to fix people yeah and that means we assume the person we're with is broken and I think this is such a subconscious thing like if you're always critiquing if you're always picking at stuff with your partner chances are you don't think they're great like just now you think there's some issues with them when you think that you can fix them and they're broken tell us about that angle where now we're almost we've talked about being the loving and kind person but sometimes we're being the person that thinks we're loving and kind because we want to improve someone but that person doesn't want to improve one big problem is that what's really driving people to pick that individual is that by being the one that can upgrade you improve you I have more value here by having more value I have a false sense of security you have to appreciate me you're less likely to walk away you're less likely to cheat because you're lucky to have me I feel like I'm the prize here but those situations never really work because again you're choosing someone that is not capable of pouring into you the way you need you're basing this off of what you could do for them and that's not sustainable and you're choosing them because again you have more emotional control here what happens to so many people especially women it's something that I call the unhealthy love cycle of women where women in their first love experience outside of any childhood trauma may have experienced they're their most loving they're just out there they go all the way in but that typically happens at a younger age at an age where men are not mature enough to handle those kind of emotions that level of commitment so on and so forth so she gets hurt after she gets hurt her moment is saying to herself I will never let this happen to me again so now the woman starts to consciously or subconsciously choose men who are I don't want to say lower than hurt but essentially a man who does not take her there he's good enough to be with but I'm not that vulnerable with him he can't hurt me like that first love hurt me and so that Dynamic usually leads to picking that person I can fix I can make better who will appreciate and respect me but again it doesn't work out and many times you'll see these same situations the guy will move on to cheat on her not because and I have to say this because some women think yeah he's just being a man no not because he's a man but because you chose a man that you could never be the woman that he needed and he could never be the man that you needed once he kind of either gets what he needs from you to build himself up or the Smoke Clears from him being infatuated with you he starts to realize I'm not getting everything that I desire and now you building him up has brought him more attention from other women so now the the difference between what you're not giving him and what someone else is willing to give him becomes way clearer now the Temptation gets way stronger and he ends up doing something or she ends up cheating as well because he's safe but he doesn't fulfill her he doesn't satisfy her he he doesn't excite her in any kind of way and that's why I always said earlier like the safe choice is almost always the wrong choice but that is a function of people trying to choose these fix or uppers because they think it's going to give them some leverage there it's leverage that's it yeah it's leverage yeah how do you know when it's time to go like how do you know when it's like I feel like this is a common question where it's like how do you know when it's just I've tried everything we've tried together tried our best maybe we went to therapy maybe we got a coach or maybe you know maybe we didn't do those things how do I just know that I feel like I need to go but I'm scared of being alone yeah I'm I'm scared of dealing with the reality that I put in a lot of energy and I feel like you said this earlier but a lot of people stay in something for a lot longer than they should because they'd rather not be alone yes they'd rather not face reality they'd rather not lose two years of their life they'd rather lose two more thinking that this this should stay like how do you know when it's time to go let me first say this yes I think I think Society needs to change their thinking as far as Letting Go doesn't always mean it can't work out later it's just that it cannot work out under these circumstances all right because some people say well I feel like they're the one okay maybe they are but maybe the time is not right and it's letting go that will allow you both to do what needs to be done in your own personal lives that would allow you to come back together and have something way more amazing so that's number one thing to consider but outside of that it's when one if that person is unwilling to put in the work necessary it's time to go there's like so many times I'll I'll have a video go up about communication and someone will comment saying I've tried talking to him and he doesn't want to talk to me and in my head I'm like why are you still with them if he refuses to talk to you you've already tried there's nothing else to do but people will let it Linger on and continue why they can why they consistently complain or unhappy about this specific issue it's not gonna magically get better they're not gonna just change it just because all of a sudden they see oh it needs to change no if they're fighting it now they have no reason to change it and what people have to understand you know especially with this whole trying to fix people up healing and facing your traumas is one of the hardest things for people to do so if they already have you in their life they're essentially getting the incentive or the benefit of relationship without having to do the deeper work it's almost like if I'm at a job and the job says you need to have a master's degree to work here but we're going to hire you anyway and give you time to get that master's degree if getting that degree is super hard to you you're gonna drag that out as long as possible yeah you may never get the degree until they fire you when they fire you and you realize oh my gosh if I don't do this I'll never get this person back I'll never get this opportunity back now they might go and get it because it's very tough to walk down the path of the healing process so if they're not willing to work on it you guys have already discussed it and I think that's a big thing because there's a lot of relationships that end and the couples don't even know what the real issue was so the communication they'll say well we talked about no you guys argued you guys lashed out there wasn't a clear communication as to what the problem was what is expected how do we go about this if you've done that and I believe one of the most effective ways to do that is through a letter because I feel like verbal communication of deep issues and concerns they typically don't go well you know people get distracted they forget what they want to say the other person gets defensive they're not they're listening to rebuttal not to understand but when there's a letter involved it gives you time to get everything out you can you can evaluate your tone leave no stone unturned and now they have an opportunity to process it on their time to really take it in and then you guys can come together and discuss the letter and now it's so much easier to stay on point and get everything covered if we've done that and they're still unwilling or there's still no progress It's Time to Go yeah that's great that's great advice and I for me that's the biggest one it's like you can't make something last if only one person's working on it you can't keep hoping and waiting and wishing and and like you said that ending doesn't mean forever and often I found that two people need to grow individually to be able to grow collectively and we're forcing growing together so hard but we need space to grow and if you can't grow together chances are you need to grow apart in order to see whether you grow together again or grow for someone else and all of those options are okay but we put so much pressure on people to grow together that they grow apart yeah and actually if they chose to grow apart and grow separately they could come back together if they learn the lessons and I think that's a mistake too though sometimes people think I'm gonna go learn this lesson for this person I meet a lot of people they're like okay they broke up with me because I wasn't XYZ now I'm gonna go become XYZ to win them back yeah and I always find I'm just like well no you should go become XYZ if you think you were missing XYZ but not to win them back because you don't know what they're gonna do what's your take on people trying to win people back so I 100 agree with you like if we're trying to learn or grow it needs to be for the benefit of who we are and just whoever we deal with so was almost like if I was a bad Communicator in this relationship I shouldn't learn to better communicate for that person I need to better communicate for whoever I'm going to be with if you can't see it in that light then maybe you're looking at the wrong thing my thing is this I think it all depends on what the details of the situation was what led to the breakup what were you overlooking what was missing are these fixable issues because a lot of people are trying to win back someone where the issues are not resolved so it's like what's the point of going back we're just going to go in the same cycle all over again they're letting this idea of I miss them I don't want to be without them blind them from the fact that you two did not get along well or you two don't want the same things or YouTube just whatever it is maybe there's a lack of sexual satisfaction I don't know why I feel the need to mention that but it happens a lot of times you have to stay focused on what led to the end and can this be corrected if it can cool but as you mentioned listen correcting it does not guarantee you they're coming back and even if they will come back you don't know when they may need so you may have figured yourself out in six months they might need a year and I would argue if you guys are truly meant for each other and at the end of the year you need a year too you're just overlooking some things and you're rushing the process because you want to get back to them yeah it's I've never found a situation where it was truly only one person who had problems and the other person was squeaky clean no no you thought you were but you got some stuff too you needed to correct of course so I think we have to be honest with ourselves and just keep striving to be better and rather than focus on winning them back just become the best you because if you do and there's a true connection there the opportunity will present itself again and you too will be able to make something of it and the struggle is that when people finally make that decision to break up or let go the study showed that the parts of your brain that are activated in a breakup are the same as detoxing from cocaine right like you're literally trying to detox so you can have a craving yeah for someone that's bad for you yeah or also it says that the areas of the brain that are activated in a breakup are the areas that are the same with physical pain so if someone like punching the stomach the reason why we say like my heart feels broken is because it literally feels like something's broken yeah so when you're going through a breakup when you're feeling the craving to be with that person again studies show that eight over eighty percent of people are looking at what their exes are doing on social media right probably through a Finster account or whatever but you have to you have to know what are some of the healthiest tips that you've given to people and the people that you've worked with that have genuinely helped people move through a breaker the first thing is to ask yourself again why was I even there why am I holding on to this individual again I think sometimes we get so blinded by just the experience or our desire to have this person for whatever reason that we Overlook what was really missing or why this could not work anyway what you'll also find is and I'm sure there's probably a study on it where if you if they broke up with you you ever see a situation it happens on TV a lot where the person could be like okay I'm gonna break up with my partner they're planning on it they've been practicing in their head right it took them a couple weeks to muster up the strength they're about to do it and then the partner breaks up with them yeah now it's oh my gosh I gotta get them back yeah so it's like you just forgot this whole time that was your plan yeah it just gave you the past to do it but now because we don't like to be the one being let go of now we're fighting hard to get it back yeah so we have to really not fall into these little traps that happen to us as human beings our brains just playing tricks on us or something where we confuse these emotions for oh my gosh I must really love them or even like you said you go into that detox and because you miss I always tell people no matter how bad the relationship was there's always good moments so if you're trying to break free you can't just let your brain focus on the good moments you have to remind yourself why this doesn't work but if you keep focusing on the good you start to make yourself think oh because I missed this good moment I must miss them and there's this quote that says sometimes you're not missing the person you're missing the feeling so you've got to be able to differentiate those two things so getting back to how we get over these breakups is recognizing why were we really there to begin with you know could this actually work the next thing is you know I'm a huge believer that a lot of times a breakup is a blessing in disguise even if there is a chance that you two can work together or this is the one for you you may have needed this time to re-evaluate and get things in order something is obviously wrong even if you it may be something as deep as because I've seen situations where everything was going amazingly well on the surface and the person broke up with them let's say the woman lets go of the man so to the man that's really confusing but what it was is that that woman she had not healed from her past relationships and this relationship being so good was scaring her and what happens is the the better you are the scarier it becomes for her she's looking for something to be wrong she has to validate her fear somehow wow when she can't find it she'll either sabotage the relationship or she'll run from it So to that man it may seem like this is so unfair which yeah it sucks but if this woman didn't break up with you now you were inevitably gonna face this same ending but at a worse time yeah all right this is still best that is happening now at least if she can go do what she needs to do there's a chance for this to come back around later but it's hard for us to see it in the moment so I think just really we also have to focus on our healing whenever a breakup happens the mistake we make is that we think it's about healing from the breakup no it's healing from everything you've been through you've probably been sleeping under the rug your childhood trauma for years maybe the last two three relationships whatever it is so and and not healing from those things is contributing to your struggle to get past this breakup and contributing to why you even chose this person to begin with I'm a huge believer that if you haven't healed you are 90 likely to choose the wrong person yeah it's just too difficult to pick that person that you truly love and can truly love you and accept that level of vulnerability when you have still not resolved your past traumas and past hurts yeah so to me that's the next big thing is just focus on your healing process because in that process you will also be able to see more clearly if this is really for you or not like walking around unhealed is like walking around with broken glasses you you can't see straight no matter how hard you try but healing will clear up your vision really really fast and now it'd be like oh wait a minute I didn't belong there yeah you know thank God the broke breakup happened you know now I'm in a better place I move forward so to me I think and I would say in addition to those things is just have an accountability partner whether that's friend coach therapist someone that can help keep you in check help remind you what you need to do someone that you know you have to talk to and update what's going on so you feel like okay I don't want to come back so I'm saying I'm doing the same thing over and over again it doesn't guarantee success but it helps it helps move the needle some so I would highly encourage that that one mindset you spoke about that that changes everything and it hit me today I was just thinking if we were just able in a moment to recognize that something painful now was going to be good for us in five years time that would change so many things in our life yes but we're so poor at dealing with current pain yeah even if it means future joy that we just can't accept that I have to go through this like in everything right like knowing that someone breaking up with you just saved you 10 years of a wasted life is so much more than knowing you're gonna have to go through a few months of pain and 10 months of pain maybe it's a bit longer maybe it's two three years but we just have to get our head around that that sometimes the best things that happen to you are protecting more of your life than the pain that they're causing you need the Peace of knowing I did what I needed to do that's it yeah because anytime you feel like well maybe I could have done this but I could have done that leaves the door open for doubt do it well exactly so it's like and that's why I'm such a big believer in you know there's people who say well once they're done they're done they'll just move on and I'm like no no Express Yourself get everything off your chest because you don't need anything to linger and you questioning well what if I did this different no make sure speak your full piece and now you can say all right I did what I had to do it is what it is I move forward and I mean it makes it easier it may not make it a hundred percent you know not an issue whatsoever but it's gonna be easier and also also for me that's why like my relationship with God is so important because that's where I find my peace in dealing with a situation that doesn't work out the way I want to I always tell myself okay if this isn't working out God has something better for me you know if this is happening right now there's a purpose because I know if I followed his guidance throughout this process there's no need for me to question why is this the current outcome there's a reason for this and I've been through these things enough times to see as you mentioned the reward is going to come it may come next week it may come years from now it will come and I'll be able to see how it all connected yeah Stefan it's been incredible talking to you man this has been such a great back-to-back flowing conversation uh we end every on purpose episode with the final five which is like a rapid fire which means every question has to be answered with one word to one sentence maximum okay so here are your final five the first question is what's the best relationship advice you've ever received or heard or given it is to love fully lovefully and be yourself because as I said earlier that's how you will expose quicker who is for you and who isn't for you second question what is the worst relationship advice you've ever heard or received get under someone to get over someone [Laughter] uh question number three uh how would you defin	things so that we don't confuse them because I see a lot of people take that chemistry and think oh this is it this is the one it's like but you had chemistry with the last five people why is this one the one and not them so I do think we have to be careful with that yeah I think so so we're on the same page there's three things there's connection on the deeper level there's chemistry which is like the spark on a more superficial level and then there's compatibility which is like what makes get lost and I can relate to that with my wife I definitely felt so I I'm one of those people who I kind of knew from the first few moments when I met my wife before she was my wife was like I was like yeah this is my person like I felt that way yeah for sure I felt that connection and there was chemistry there too but it had to be turned into compatibility in order to create a long lasting relationship we've been together for 10 years we're still learning building going through everything but that was a big part of it so that I can get behind is do you see it that way too or is there something different in so how do you see it believe it or not I used to make compatibility the least important but that was because I was looking at	8	4	6	things so that we don't confuse them because I see a lot of people take that chemistry and think oh this is it this is the one it's like but you had chemistry with the last five people why is this one the one and not them so I do think we have to be careful with that yeah I think so so we're on the same page there's three things there's connection on the deeper level there's chemistry which is like the spark on a more superficial level and then there's compatibility which is like what makes get lost and I can relate to that with my wife I definitely felt so I I'm one of those people who I kind of knew from the first few moments when I met my wife before she was my wife was like I was like yeah this is my person like I felt that way yeah for sure I felt that connection and there was chemistry there too but it had to be turned into compatibility in order to create a long lasting relationship we've been together for 10 years we're still learning building going through everything but that was a big part of it so that I can get behind is do you see it that way too or is there something different in so how do you see it	believe it or not I used to make compatibility the least important but that was because I was looking at	4,2,5	2,-1,3	4	2	5	2	-1	3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPQBcb9wf8Q	4,056	mPQBcb9wf8Q	2023-03-27 00:00:00	you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you're wasting your time the best-selling author and host the number one Health and Wellness podcast on purpose with Jay Shetty what are the signs that someone deeply loves you because I feel like we live in this world where we're always wondering do they love me do they like me do they really like me are they really into me how do you know when you deeply love someone and when someone deeply loves you how do you even know so I'm gonna start with an answer that people probably won't expect to me the first key is do you truly love them because look at it like this to me a lot of people get caught up in infatuation um they have unhealthy attachments they have different motivations to why they decided this is the person that I want and that can make them feel like they're in love but to me true love flows both ways it's not a one-sided thing so when you can say I I'm not into them like that if we look deep into that situation I can almost guarantee what we'll find is infatuation attachment something else but when you can say no I feel it too I'm deeply in love with them I think that's your first key because without that nothing else matters because a lot of people are choosing Partners based off of what they love me so much so I assume it's safe here and this is a good choice to make but the safe choice is usually the wrong choice and a lot of these people select this individual thinking everything's going to be okay but because you're not really into them you can never be what they need and they were never truly what you needed which is why you never even got to that level with them so to choose them without first evaluating do you truly love them would not be wise yeah that's that's a great question and I think people struggle with that question too because I think we think of love as so many different things wrapped into one for example I could think I love someone because of how they treat me I could think I love someone because they have one quality that I really wish I had or I could love someone because I think that they're out of my league and they give me a bit of attention yeah and so what we think is love is so complex and so wide that we never stop to ask ourselves like what does love mean like what's the definition of love like how do I Define love so how do you define love and how do you encourage other people to create their definitions of Love well for me first off is always God is love and then when we take it from there love is about kindness compassion patience understanding a willingness to be selfless important to that individual but I think what's also important for people to understand is when we're trying to apply it to romantic relationships we have to understand that there's other ingredients that are necessary before we can move forward so you could love someone dearly but if they are not emotionally ready because maybe they haven't healed from their past maybe there's still some things that need to work out in their life then it wouldn't be time to move forward in a relationship with them and we have this bad habit of the minute we feel like there's love there we want to move forward exactly and as you mentioned we can get caught up sometimes in but we love them because of what they do for us but what are you prepared to do for them love is about giving all right so we have to ask ourselves okay do we know what their needs are are we willing to fulfill those needs because if not maybe this wasn't love maybe it just felt good in the moment maybe you got caught up in the hype and that's okay it happens to almost all of us if not all of us at some point in life but we have to just be real very clear with ourselves about what's really driving the intention right now but I think all those things I mentioned is what encompasses love of and that's like the foundation of it and then from there we have to look at some other things to see how we can move forward so many times like you you convince yourself something's love and what I find really interesting is that so many people fall in love too fast and no one wants to go for the slow patient understanding love which is what love requires you just said love is kind love is patient love is understanding those things take time I think those things take time to nurture and to to make sure that we're doing it correctly for each other so it's about learning each other's Love Languages and how we make it work in within that Dynamic I think also because so many people are not used to dealing with emotions at on that level being that vulnerable people mishandle it all right so it takes time for us to get to a place so we understand how to manage this and work through this however I think that I'm a huge believer in connection and I believe connection is like your spirit recognizing its match and it's very instant when you speak to couples who said they experience a connection they'll tell you first conversation first time meeting first date first week it was pretty fast so to me the the recognizing of something deeper being here can happen very quickly but how we now cultivate that and how we move forward is where we need to take our time and make sure we're not rushing and overlooking certain important issues that need to be discussed and addressed first to me it's the understanding of chemistry versus compatibility and the idea that there needs to be a spark there needs to be a connection that I feel with someone like you're saying on a deeper level but I find that I find that most people are not Adept and knowing whether the connection they feel with someone is deeper or physical yeah like I would say that it's easy to it you can often feel a spark with if you meet a lot of people you can feel a spot with a lot of people but that doesn't mean that they're the right person to build a relationship absolutely right yes so it's connection to me is a very rare occurrence right yes so I feel that people who've actually experienced it they can tell you maybe once in their life if you're lucky two times maybe all right but it's not this thing that happens with everybody whereas chemistry uh feeling of spark these things can happen with a lot of different people yeah so I do think there's there's this education that's needed to understand how we differentiate these things so that we don't confuse them because I see a lot of people take that chemistry and think oh this is it this is the one it's like but you had chemistry with the last five people why is this one the one and not them so I do think we have to be careful with that yeah I think so so we're on the same page there's three things there's connection on the deeper level there's chemistry which is like the spark on a more superficial level and then there's compatibility which is like what makes get lost and I can relate to that with my wife I definitely felt so I I'm one of those people who I kind of knew from the first few moments when I met my wife before she was my wife was like I was like yeah this is my person like I felt that way yeah for sure I felt that connection and there was chemistry there too but it had to be turned into compatibility in order to create a long lasting relationship we've been together for 10 years we're still learning building going through everything but that was a big part of it so that I can get behind is do you see it that way too or is there something different in so how do you see it believe it or not I used to make compatibility the least important but that was because I was looking at it the wrong way once I kind of looked at the definition again and compatibility is about two people coexisting in harmony yeah then I was like okay no you you have to have that I just I got caught up more so in like let's say a dating site says okay we're gonna decide who's compatible so I view compatible as like an on the paper it looks good it's supposed to match but you can have a lot of people who are supposed to be compatible and it doesn't work absolutely so I think that it's compatibility is that add-on once we have the connection and the chemistry now we have to create that Harmony which is the compatibility yes I agree with you and and it is interesting how that word compatibility is thrown around and you're so right that compatibility on paper doesn't mean compatibility in real life exactly and to me compatibility really has another word inside of it which is like adaptability and that deeper understanding of an individual where you know how much you're willing to adapt around certain parts of the relationship but we'll get to that I think a lot of people like you know and and that's where we got into this conversation around what is slow a lot of people are waiting to feel like is this person wasting my time are they the one and so they don't have a deeper connection maybe they had that spark of chemistry and now that's kind of subsided how do you know if someone's wasting your time how do you know if you're letting yourself be used or wasted in that way so to me again I think it always starts with self and you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you because just use an example let's say you're a woman and the only reason why you're holding on to this guy is because he's a nice guy you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you figure let me try to make it work you're wasting your time this is where you're setting yourself up for disaster every single time so if it's not born out of a true connection love a genuine desire you really like this individual of course there's always things we have to work through but is the foundation strong enough for us to say okay we can make something special here and I think once we are honest with ourselves that kind of helps answer the question because sometimes we get so caught up trying to animal lies the other individual that is like we get in our heads and now we're missing the mark on what's really important here and we can't always say for sure what's going on with them I will say that in general if this person isn't willing to talk about things they're wasting your time if they're not willing to address or correct things that have been talked about they're wasting your time if you guys aren't on the same page about what you want and where you want to go in life wasting time so there are some things I think we can just look at and say listen this is pointless here but a lot of times and I have to say this especially for women women's intuition is extremely powerful I'm a huge believer in it and I feel like women know very early this isn't it but they rationalize reasons to convince themselves to give this man a chance and this again is a waste of time because it just doesn't work I've seen people turn what should have been maybe a couple weeks of dating into years of being married to someone they were not happy with all because they did not listen to themselves from the beginning they knew what it was but they just could not accept it for what it was yeah and I love that point on intuition it's almost like when a relationship finally ends a lot of us think to ourselves I knew they weren't right yeah like I knew it I knew that they weren't the one but you just didn't listen to that part of yourself yes so so let's break it down for people let's help people out we started talking about three very important words connection which you defined chemistry which we've defined in compatibility which we've defined how do people know the difference between connection and chemistry when they meet someone because I find that the science shows that you're experiencing dopamine and cortisol at the same times you're experiencing the reward chemical and stress chemical at the same time which gives you that chemistry feeling which is the feeling of butterflies in your stomach or like do they like me are they into me what should I wear that kind of feeling but then you're talking about a deeper connection how do you hear the difference because I think a lot of us just get swept up in the feeling of I'm So Into that person they're so into me how do you know so I think one is are you even being yourself or can you be yourself with this individual if if you're presenting your representative then this is not a real connection this is them falling for that person that you're presenting but that's not real so to me you have you should be already being yourself but with that person you have a connection with it's a more natural flow we don't have to force it we just feel so much more comfortable around them I think in addition to that is when you when you find yourself all caught up in the moment and caught up in that chemistry again you have to ask yourself what am I really attaching myself to what about what do I really like about this individual what I find is that when it's really about chemistry we're still on the surface you don't really know about them yet you just know you guys had a good time maybe you had fun at this event you guys were able to talk about a lot of different things which is great which is gonna also be important if there is a connection however do you even know what college did they want do you know what kind of Life they want to live you know are you guys really on the same page I think connection is our paths align our purpose is align so for us to align we have to have a deeper understanding of where we're headed and can we head there together so so that's why I think though you may feel it or you may feel like you're feeling it you have to do your due diligence to dig deeper to find out okay is this just I got caught up on the surface or there is something real here yeah and I think once we ask enough questions because I think that's the other big problem we have this experience where we feel this chemistry we're so excited and now we're afraid to ask questions because we don't want to blow up the fantasy yes you know what I'm saying we're just like no no I want to keep believing this is great so let me not ask anything let me not run this person away let me not rock the boat but that's going to be what tells us if this is real or not yes I think you're I think you've hit on something there like we're so scared of losing someone that we're okay with not asking important questions and discovering important truths that actually define whether this relationship is going to last absolutely and that is ultimately going back to your point earlier that is ultimately you not being yourself right you're losing yourself scared that you're going to lose the other person so you're okay with not being yourself do you think it's ever okay this is a funny question I think but I have to ask you because I think it's a healthy discussion do you think it's ever okay to present different sides of yourself in order to attract someone or do you think that you're ultimately setting yourself up for failure in a relationship almost like I think a lot of people they may not become someone completely different but I think a lot of people are like oh I'm gonna show my smart side because it will attract this person or I'm gonna show my this side because they're like that are you saying any of that kind of molding is unhealthy or do you think there's room for that I think anything that is not sustainable is unhealthy so look at it as if I'm a man and I'm meeting this woman I want to impress her so I'm like okay I'm gonna try to spend all my money take a nice five-star restaurant all these things but deep inside I prefer a more simple lifestyle you know I don't like all that extra stuff okay that's horrible that's a sale for disaster that's unhealthy because you can't sustain what you're presenting to that individual that's gonna draw them in so whatever it is another like common example is you'll have women who love to communicate they want to be able to talk to you every single day but because they're afraid of coming off a certain kind of way they'll hold back on their communication so now they'll make it seem like they're okay with talking every now and then we don't always have to text and then this guy falls for that he falls for this low standard I won't call low standard but not having such a high expectation of him when it comes to communication then he finally gets with the woman her true self is going to come out at some point no one can suppress their true self forever it comes out and now it's like what is this I did not sign up for this now we're fighting now we're stressed because you want him to call you more he was used to you not being worried about it so much that's why it's going to always not work out so it's extremely unhealthy unless we're presenting a side of us that is truly us and we can sustain it you've hit on something again that that at the beginning of relationships we often display unrealistic standards and we set those yes and then when things shift and now you're back in reality again the other person's like but wait a minute I thought you were really into me and I even went through that with my wife when we first met I was able to spend pretty much every day with her because I didn't have a job and so I was looking for work I was applying I would go see her at her College every day and I would spend the day with her and I'd be in the library applying for jobs while she was studying yeah and I could see it every day and I think I saw every day potentially for like six months maybe every single day five days a week at least and then when I got a job that wasn't the case anymore because I was at work now and I'd set this unrealistic expectation that we could see each other all the time and even in the beginning I would see her all the time because I'd spend time with her family but we wouldn't spend time with my family because I hadn't told my family yet and so now that my family knew we were trying to split the time and all of a sudden it was like wait a minute we used to spend time at my house and so even in little things like that it took a bit of adapting because I'd set a false standard in our relationship and then thankfully my wife was adapting and she understood and she got it and it was fine but I think for so many people you set unrealistic expectations in who you are yes and that's hard to come back from absolutely yeah and that's why it's so important for us to know who we are so that we can present the real from the jump you know because again A lot of times people you know this idea that we're always changing yes I do think we're always evolving but some of the big shifts that you see are is not because that's just the way life is it's because you did take the time to figure yourself out first and then you got with this person and now you want them to adjust now thank God for you she was able to adjust but there's a lot of people that they can't handle that yeah and now everything falls apart from there so that's why yeah we have to be very careful with what we're presenting from the beginning yeah it's I I agree with you on that that we think people change but actually they just start to understand themselves exactly they went from being completely unconscious about who they were you met an unconscious version of a person yeah and now you think they're changing but they just became conscious of who they are absolutely and but the thing is Stefan as you know like Society doesn't encourage that time of getting to know yourself right when you're young you're not trained in how to think about who you want to be you're trained in thinking about what you want to I do it's about your job it's about your career you're not thinking about who you are as a human being or as a person so how do we in this Society where understanding who you are is not clear it's not encouraged where where does one start or where have you kind of found great insights in trying to discover who we are I would love to see more parents encouraging their children to explore how they're feeling about who they are like what I have found is a lot of people who let's say I I had one client where she wanted to be an actress when she was a little kid uh but parents kind of push in a different direction now she's like a social worker but her desire is still to be an actress like the things that they they wanted to do they they want to do as an adult now you can find back in their childhood in a lot of cases so I feel like too many people have stifled their children's growth in certain areas with limited ideas of well this can't make money or this wouldn't be a good look for the family or whatever the case may be it's like no let them walk in it and see for themselves if that's really where they belong outside of that for me I think the big thing is getting in tune spiritually I'm just a huge believer in that I feel like me finding myself was when I went into what I call my Wilderness period I kind of just shut everything off that I was doing because I used to be all over having fun partying all these different things things and then God kind of slapped me upside my head and I had to like really pull away from everything and go deeper from within and it felt like a process of breaking me down to build me right back up and that's when I start to see things clearer because what I realized is the world is filled with distractions and it's the distractions why we can't see ourselves for who we really are if we simply shut off the distractions long enough you will learn a lot so even if someone just took a year off don't worry you know limit the TV you're watching limit the music you're listening to limit all the internet stuff just really go deeper within yourself spend more time alone spend more time you know thinking and processing you will learn a lot because again a lot of it is it isn't a problem of we don't know ourselves we are not aware and we're not willing to accept and once we allow ourselves to do those two things become aware and then accept it we become free yeah I I mean I agree with you I think that I've always been a big proponent of solitude to understand who you are because as soon as you have another person you now have another person's opinions you have to filter yes as soon as you have another person in front of you you have another person's judgments to filter and so now you can't even say what you truly think about something because you're constantly thinking what does that person think about me and my beliefs and so understanding your beliefs in solitude allows you to be really clear about what your values and beliefs are and and that's what it's there for I think when people get into if we switch to compatibility again the idea we talked about the difference between connection and chemistry but compatibility is really interesting because a lot of people believe that relationships should be hard and they require hard work and a lot of people believe relationships should be easy and everything should just flow where have you kind of discovered your lens on that Spectrum so okay there's a there's a couple ways to look at it I think that most relationships and I'll even be more specific most relations that involve connection and true love are typically hard not because relationships have to be hard but because most people have been hurt by something in their life are holding on to past traumas haven't resolved it once they meet this individual that they feel so strongly about it is scary this is where things get difficult it's the difficultness in how do I handle this how do I manage this you'll have people feel like they're losing themselves but they're not losing themselves their true self is coming out and it's it's the self that's been hiding behind that wall they've been using for quote-unquote protection but I always say the same module to protect you the same as blocking your blessings so now they're being pulled from behind it it's it's makes them feel some kind of way and again people start to mishandle things you also have situations where people are getting bad advice like I'm gonna give one example um there's this uh book called The Game by Neil Strauss I don't know if you ever read that book yeah it was great Neil you know you you answer that world to pick up artistry we learned it and he was great with the women but then once he found that woman that he fell in love with all that stuff doesn't work anymore so you have a lot of men being taught how to handle women in general but they don't understand that's not how you handle the woman you truly love and so now again you have individuals who though they are truly in love with this person they constantly mishandle it with bad Guidance with fear and all these things this is what makes it hard and and I even think that a lot of times the people who are supposed to be together sometimes will have the hardest time getting together but I believe that once we're able to conquer that part of it and actually come together it's not hard yes it takes work I believe we have to be conscious and mindful of how we treat our partners how we show up being willing to listen but I think it's so much easier to do those things with someone you have a connection with and you're truly in love with it's gonna always feel ten times harder when you're in the wrong relationship and I would argue the vast majority of people are in the wrong relationship that's why they're seeing it be so difficult and when you see this whole it's easy typically it's easy because you have two people who are not digging deeper they're they're trying to write out that chemistry we talked about earlier for as long as possible all right so yeah it seems like it's great it's easy no issues but it doesn't really work like that because they're just not facing the reality of the situation so I think we we have to understand that there is going to be some bumps in the road because of all the things that people have been through but once we're able to come together and we know this is our partner this is who we want to share our life with it can get so much better yeah and do you do you think that people have just been given generally the wrong education on how to deal with another person in their life 100 yeah because unfortunately a lot of individuals are giving advice from a bit or hurt place there and and they're trying to disguise it as I'm just looking out for you no you you have inhaled and you cannot properly guide them in a positive and loving Manner and I think that a lot of people you know I always say it's funny how we'll spend a lot of time getting educated for the for the sake of our careers and business but we don't do the same for relationships and yet relationships arguably are even more important than that career business and even if it's not a romantic relationship just relationships in general your ability to coexist with others connect with others is extremely important if you want that business to succeed you have to learn how to establish business relationships there's no way around it so we have to learn how to talk to people listen to people you know what I'm saying and just make make things work when we come together with other individuals so I definitely think that we're just lacking in a lot of education and again too many because there's so many voices on the internet now there's just so much bad advice being given and and the individuals giving it they may be giving like let's say 80 of the advice is accurate but it's that 20 that's completely off that can derail everything and that's the stuff that people are gravitating to and this is causing a lot of problems can you give us some example of some of the like not specific people or anything like that I just mean like could you give example of bad advice and what about it is bad or unhealthy for people to try and put into practice okay so one thing I heard recently was an individual told uh said some of the best advice you can give to men is to not fall in love you know basically just find a woman you want to be with and kind of keep it there the reason why I view that as horrible advice is because you sit down with any man who's lived enough life they will all be able to say there's been at least one time they fail deeply for a woman all right the problem isn't falling deep before a woman the problem is we don't know how to handle it once we get there the problem is because we're not accustomed to handling and processing our emotions a certain kind of way and being this vulnerable we don't understand what's going to be required of us in that moment we also kind of lose sight of because I'm a big believer in masculine and feminine energy and I believe that if she was attracted to you because of that masculine energy that you give off and now you become this emotional wreck because you don't know how to handle all these feelings you have for her well you start to become less attractive to her and it's not that it's not fixable it's fixable but again a lack of understanding and awareness derails the situation so rather than telling men don't fall in love because it's inevitable let's teach them how we walk in love how we make what I call Loving in your masculine how you maintain that energy and still be able to pour into that woman in a way that allows relationship to flourish yeah and how does that work when I think obviously a lot of people in that example that you're giving if if the person is attracted to someone because of their masculine energy but at the same time they want them to be empathetic and compassionate and kind which are generally seen as more feminine energy how does that person balance the two or is that is that not how you're explaining is that no it's about balance so we have to understand we all have masculine and feminine of course within us I'm a Believer in one must be your dominant energy the other is the one you tap into when necessary so as a man you can walk in your masculine and in those moments tap into those things but you can't just stay there all the time all right you can't just become this needy emotional God that's not going to work in the vast majority of cases and so what happens is there's this messaging that's being thrown out there that women don't like good guys I don't believe that's what it is I believe that women become less attracted when you don't know how to exude and walk in your masculine energy it's and and we're hiding behind the label of good guy you can be a good guy and still exude masculine energy and that's the thing and we also think that oh they like bad boys no if you look deeper it's really the masculine energy that that quote-unquote bad boy exudes but what they desire is a mixture of both the same way that we would want a mixture of both we would want a loving sweet woman family woman whatever or and if you're a guy who wants a mask and woman cool but you don't want her to be just that you know you want her to have the ability to tap into that other side when necessary I think we all desire that balance in our partner and I think it's healthy and if we just learn how to maintain it and how to nurture it we would see greater success in relationships yeah what are some of the skills with with mastering that energy that you think we're missing out on and balancing that energy and knowing when to be which and because the reason why it's hard is I think we live in a binary world right like you feel like you have to choose like you're either a bad boy or you're a good girl you are a doer or you're a thinker you're uh winner or you're a loser right like we think like that and some people go okay you need to be masculine or I can be feminine and I I definitely relate to what you were saying like I believe that there is a lot about me that is massively masculine in energy using that language and terminology my drive my ambition how I work my strategic mind and at the same time I consider myself to have a lot of great feminine energy and qualities where it comes to like empowering others and nurturing and the ability to hold deep compassionate space and be empathetic which are all powerful qualities for for everyone right Beyond gender they're powerful qualities and I appreciate and it's taken a long time to know when to be which and it's still and I still make mistakes right there's still sometimes like I should have been more assertive I should have been more affectionate so we live in a world that finds it hard to hold two opposing ideas at the same time yeah we don't know how to do that in any sphere of life let alone within ourselves so what are some of the skills that we can learn in order to nurture both those energies in a healthy way inside of ourselves so I think one it's going to require a lot of if you're already in a relationship it's going to boil down to a lot of transparency and communication you know her if you're that man trying to understand that woman and when you can walk in those two energies her being willing to be honest and open about you know what this was too much over here or I needed some of this over here and in time you're going to become more aware and understanding it's going to be like second nature to you you won't have to overthink it and I think part of it is not overthinking it it's kind of like being ourselves but understanding that we have to learn when this is doing too much and vice versa I also think that in reality for a lot of men especially uh when we're talking about relationships and kind of losing that masculine energy the the underlying issue is fear all right when we become so afraid of losing this woman we lose ourselves and so a lot of men now fall into this very feminine needy space because they're just afraid we have to learn that listen like to me I feel if your partner thinks you're never gonna walk away from them no matter what they do you've lost that's that's a horrible place to be in we have to get to a place where we both understand that as long as we show up the way that we need to show up for each other we have each other's back we will be here but neither of us will tolerate an unhealthy relationship and someone who blatantly does not want to work on making this better I would want my the woman I'm with to feel that way and I need to feel that way once we understand that and you have the confidence of I can walk away if I have to that shifts your energy right there in itself and now you don't find yourself falling into that place where again you start to look a lot more unattractive or for some men they become yes men in their relationships thinking that makes her happy that's turning her off she doesn't want you to be her yes man she wants you to stand up for yourself sometimes give your opinion give your perspective she wants to be able to you know if anything be able to have discussions with you about these things not just you say whatever you want whatever you want whatever you want over time it becomes a problem so I think that once we conquer that fear once we create a space where we can talk about these moments and not feel some kind of way I think sometimes men are not they struggle with taking the criticism from their partner men and women we we all do when we feel when we have actual feelings for someone you know we don't care about you it's not as big of a deal but we're emotionally invested we're more sensitive to it but we have to understand that these criticisms are for the sake of making things better and strengthening this relationship so once we can get to that place it's going to be so much easier to grow in it and then I think it's just a matter of understanding that it's this balance isn't just for your relationship so look at it like from a sports perspective if I'm on a basketball team there may be moments where I need to take the lead and recognize all right everyone else is down someone needs to step up this is my moment and then there's other moments where I realize okay let's say we already have a team captain let me show them that I can follow serve do what needs to be done so that the team can win it's just becoming aware of what the moment requires you know and again I think the more in tune we get the more in tune we get with ourselves and the more in tune we get with our partner the easier it becomes to find that balance that's the challenge right the challenge is just how much patience we have with ourselves and others to realize that you walked into an imbalance unbalanced situation and now it's like how much patience how much time are we going to give it to get to that because the challenge is I think we walk into a situation thinking it's perfect whereas we should be walking into a relationship knowing it's imperfect absolutely and we're going to learn and figure it out together and I think that's what sets us up for failure is because we walk into it going it's perfect and deep down we know it isn't but somehow we gloss over it whereas I find when I know we're gonna fight when I know we're gonna argue and I know there's going to be disagreements that sets me up to develop the skills I need in order to navigate those things yes but if I assume like oh we're never gonna fight and I always get that right we always meet someone who goes to I mean a friend who goes to me Jay we never fight I'm like how long have you been together because I don't I don't know anyone who never fights I get that no one has to get to like yeah the heights of fights yeah I did that I did that it doesn't have to be a heated fight but I don't know anyone who doesn't disagree there you go all right right I think that's important for people to understand yeah there's a difference yes you have some individuals out there that'll say arguing is normal it's healthy and to me it's like listen if we're talking about arguing where we're now Crossing disrespectful lines negative lines you know the way that we the tone we take with each other all these things that's not healthy yes it may happen you should be prepared for that but it does let's not normalize it just gonna keep doing this and it's it is what it is but you're right to to be with each other long enough and never have a disagreement that's extremely rare okay extremely rare and I do think that again as you mentioned we have to be ready for those moments we have to understand and going back to how we find that balance especially as men and even for women it's recognizing so for example if my partner is in a very heated moment let's say she's in her masculine right now all right she's getting rough well meeting her with more masculine is probably going to only make things worse yeah this is the time for me to be compassionate go to her hold her calm her down bring her peace in that moment you see because it we need to balance each other out same thing on the flip side if I'm all heated and I'm I'm extra passionate and then my woman now comes with that same energy that's it now where button has this is her moment to say no let me now be the one to soften the moment up bring that Sweetness in there and everybody calms down so it's learning how to feed off of each other and recognize okay they're over here let me bring it back over here and now we can work from that point and we're both good the problem is that we all see compassion and sweetness and kindness in those moments as a weakness we don't want to be that person because we see that as losing we see that as giving in we see that as us losing our power and strength in a relationship if we become the comforter or if we become the carer right like that's that's a perception that is the perception and we have to change that that is the power position so who is more powerful the person that lets the energy dictate them how they're going to react or the person that brings the energy and dictates how they're going to make this situation play out so if I'm coming in to calm it down and being all sweet because I'm trying to bring peace here I'm in the power position I'm not losing anything I'm gonna gain more peace and happiness and Harmony if I succeed in what I'm trying to do so we have to get out of that mindset of this makes us weaker and that is the big key of it that's a big problem that for a lot of women who struggle with their feminine energy that's a big issue where they feel that being feminine is weakness it's what got them taken advantage of and got them hurt but I always say it's not the feminine energy that's the problem it's who you give it to do they respect it did they honor it you know it's the same thing as a man does she respect your masculine if she doesn't then that might just be a sign you're with the wrong person but don't stop being that guy because the woman who's best for you is going to need that in those moments that that's exactly what it is is that when people have been their best selves for the wrong person that person brings out the worst in them yes right like when someone's been their best loving kindness self but someone took advantage of it that person now thinks next time I've got to be aggressive I've got to be you know powerful I've got to be strong in this way and I feel like that's kind of what most people are dealing with we know that is that you're just dealing with a wounded version of someone yes not a healed version of someone but I think people struggle to trust again and again especially when they see the same patterns in the person they're weird and I guess the question is why do we keep making the same mistakes because I feel like a lot of us keep dating the same people yeah and there's a part of us that also just keeps closing off or being more wounded it's almost like if you cut yourself you now walk around with your hand over that you don't want to get cut again and then if you lead it off and it gets cut even deeper now you're even more conscious of that and so I find that people are doing that where they're closing their heart more and more because it's been so misused and abused and I understand that I understand people don't want to be abused and misused but I guess the question is how do people find people that they know respect them so that they can be their best version or be a better version of themselves so you know you can't drive out Darkness with more Darkness you can't expose someone who's gonna hurt you by being someone who's closed off and holding back yourself we have it's kind of what we were just talking about we have to look at being vulnerable loving and open as not just well I'm setting myself to be hurt no it's how you expose people faster if I come with that energy and you cannot respect it match it then I know you don't belong here but if I hold back I give you a free pass to hold back so now we have two individuals who are hiding behind their walls because it's comfortable there but you can't really see what's what do we really have in front of us those walls are blinding you and you can't properly evaluate the situation so one we we got to get to a place of healing from our past so that we're not just walking around with the hand over the cut no you you gotta let the cup breathe you gotta let it heal all right holding on put your hand on there is delaying the process and like you said all that's gonna happen is when you finally take your hand off but you're taking it off with the wrong person and you haven't learned see what I want people to realize is your actions weren't the problem meaning you being loving sweet kind compassionate wasn't the problem it was the person separate those two things that you don't stop doing the good things now granted are there levels to this to where we have to learn again if I'm thinking about a man if you got so deeply emotional to where you kind of lost your your masculine energy and you became very needy okay you can say all right I need to continue to be loving but I know I have to learn how to draw a line I have to learn how not to cross that moment and again you only crossed it because you were unhealthy to begin with you only cross it because you were afraid to begin with once you get to that place where you're healthy and confident you won't find yourself Crossing that line anymore yeah you won't tolerate certain things anymore so we have to heal we have to be confident and we have to let our light shine so that we can expose what's in front of us easier that's a brilliant answer I I love the differentiation between how sharing your light is not the problem the person's the problem because we yeah we start to doubt whether being a good person a loving person is actually what wins in the world yeah and the truth is that it does win but it has to win with someone who can receive it and absolutely hold that space with you and share that space with you and I find that a lot of people keep giving that energy to the wrong person because we feel we can make them better right like there's this feeling of like I can change this person I can make them better I can heal them there's some of us want to fix people yeah and that means we assume the person we're with is broken and I think this is such a subconscious thing like if you're always critiquing if you're always picking at stuff with your partner chances are you don't think they're great like just now you think there's some issues with them when you think that you can fix them and they're broken tell us about that angle where now we're almost we've talked about being the loving and kind person but sometimes we're being the person that thinks we're loving and kind because we want to improve someone but that person doesn't want to improve one big problem is that what's really driving people to pick that individual is that by being the one that can upgrade you improve you I have more value here by having more value I have a false sense of security you have to appreciate me you're less likely to walk away you're less likely to cheat because you're lucky to have me I feel like I'm the prize here but those situations never really work because again you're choosing someone that is not capable of pouring into you the way you need you're basing this off of what you could do for them and that's not sustainable and you're choosing them because again you have more emotional control here what happens to so many people especially women it's something that I call the unhealthy love cycle of women where women in their first love experience outside of any childhood trauma may have experienced they're their most loving they're just out there they go all the way in but that typically happens at a younger age at an age where men are not mature enough to handle those kind of emotions that level of commitment so on and so forth so she gets hurt after she gets hurt her moment is saying to herself I will never let this happen to me again so now the woman starts to consciously or subconsciously choose men who are I don't want to say lower than hurt but essentially a man who does not take her there he's good enough to be with but I'm not that vulnerable with him he can't hurt me like that first love hurt me and so that Dynamic usually leads to picking that person I can fix I can make better who will appreciate and respect me but again it doesn't work out and many times you'll see these same situations the guy will move on to cheat on her not because and I have to say this because some women think yeah he's just being a man no not because he's a man but because you chose a man that you could never be the woman that he needed and he could never be the man that you needed once he kind of either gets what he needs from you to build himself up or the Smoke Clears from him being infatuated with you he starts to realize I'm not getting everything that I desire and now you building him up has brought him more attention from other women so now the the difference between what you're not giving him and what someone else is willing to give him becomes way clearer now the Temptation gets way stronger and he ends up doing something or she ends up cheating as well because he's safe but he doesn't fulfill her he doesn't satisfy her he he doesn't excite her in any kind of way and that's why I always said earlier like the safe choice is almost always the wrong choice but that is a function of people trying to choose these fix or uppers because they think it's going to give them some leverage there it's leverage that's it yeah it's leverage yeah how do you know when it's time to go like how do you know when it's like I feel like this is a common question where it's like how do you know when it's just I've tried everything we've tried together tried our best maybe we went to therapy maybe we got a coach or maybe you know maybe we didn't do those things how do I just know that I feel like I need to go but I'm scared of being alone yeah I'm I'm scared of dealing with the reality that I put in a lot of energy and I feel like you said this earlier but a lot of people stay in something for a lot longer than they should because they'd rather not be alone yes they'd rather not face reality they'd rather not lose two years of their life they'd rather lose two more thinking that this this should stay like how do you know when it's time to go let me first say this yes I think I think Society needs to change their thinking as far as Letting Go doesn't always mean it can't work out later it's just that it cannot work out under these circumstances all right because some people say well I feel like they're the one okay maybe they are but maybe the time is not right and it's letting go that will allow you both to do what needs to be done in your own personal lives that would allow you to come back together and have something way more amazing so that's number one thing to consider but outside of that it's when one if that person is unwilling to put in the work necessary it's time to go there's like so many times I'll I'll have a video go up about communication and someone will comment saying I've tried talking to him and he doesn't want to talk to me and in my head I'm like why are you still with them if he refuses to talk to you you've already tried there's nothing else to do but people will let it Linger on and continue why they can why they consistently complain or unhappy about this specific issue it's not gonna magically get better they're not gonna just change it just because all of a sudden they see oh it needs to change no if they're fighting it now they have no reason to change it and what people have to understand you know especially with this whole trying to fix people up healing and facing your traumas is one of the hardest things for people to do so if they already have you in their life they're essentially getting the incentive or the benefit of relationship without having to do the deeper work it's almost like if I'm at a job and the job says you need to have a master's degree to work here but we're going to hire you anyway and give you time to get that master's degree if getting that degree is super hard to you you're gonna drag that out as long as possible yeah you may never get the degree until they fire you when they fire you and you realize oh my gosh if I don't do this I'll never get this person back I'll never get this opportunity back now they might go and get it because it's very tough to walk down the path of the healing process so if they're not willing to work on it you guys have already discussed it and I think that's a big thing because there's a lot of relationships that end and the couples don't even know what the real issue was so the communication they'll say well we talked about no you guys argued you guys lashed out there wasn't a clear communication as to what the problem was what is expected how do we go about this if you've done that and I believe one of the most effective ways to do that is through a letter because I feel like verbal communication of deep issues and concerns they typically don't go well you know people get distracted they forget what they want to say the other person gets defensive they're not they're listening to rebuttal not to understand but when there's a letter involved it gives you time to get everything out you can you can evaluate your tone leave no stone unturned and now they have an opportunity to process it on their time to really take it in and then you guys can come together and discuss the letter and now it's so much easier to stay on point and get everything covered if we've done that and they're still unwilling or there's still no progress It's Time to Go yeah that's great that's great advice and I for me that's the biggest one it's like you can't make something last if only one person's working on it you can't keep hoping and waiting and wishing and and like you said that ending doesn't mean forever and often I found that two people need to grow individually to be able to grow collectively and we're forcing growing together so hard but we need space to grow and if you can't grow together chances are you need to grow apart in order to see whether you grow together again or grow for someone else and all of those options are okay but we put so much pressure on people to grow together that they grow apart yeah and actually if they chose to grow apart and grow separately they could come back together if they learn the lessons and I think that's a mistake too though sometimes people think I'm gonna go learn this lesson for this person I meet a lot of people they're like okay they broke up with me because I wasn't XYZ now I'm gonna go become XYZ to win them back yeah and I always find I'm just like well no you should go become XYZ if you think you were missing XYZ but not to win them back because you don't know what they're gonna do what's your take on people trying to win people back so I 100 agree with you like if we're trying to learn or grow it needs to be for the benefit of who we are and just whoever we deal with so was almost like if I was a bad Communicator in this relationship I shouldn't learn to better communicate for that person I need to better communicate for whoever I'm going to be with if you can't see it in that light then maybe you're looking at the wrong thing my thing is this I think it all depends on what the details of the situation was what led to the breakup what were you overlooking what was missing are these fixable issues because a lot of people are trying to win back someone where the issues are not resolved so it's like what's the point of going back we're just going to go in the same cycle all over again they're letting this idea of I miss them I don't want to be without them blind them from the fact that you two did not get along well or you two don't want the same things or YouTube just whatever it is maybe there's a lack of sexual satisfaction I don't know why I feel the need to mention that but it happens a lot of times you have to stay focused on what led to the end and can this be corrected if it can cool but as you mentioned listen correcting it does not guarantee you they're coming back and even if they will come back you don't know when they may need so you may have figured yourself out in six months they might need a year and I would argue if you guys are truly meant for each other and at the end of the year you need a year too you're just overlooking some things and you're rushing the process because you want to get back to them yeah it's I've never found a situation where it was truly only one person who had problems and the other person was squeaky clean no no you thought you were but you got some stuff too you needed to correct of course so I think we have to be honest with ourselves and just keep striving to be better and rather than focus on winning them back just become the best you because if you do and there's a true connection there the opportunity will present itself again and you too will be able to make something of it and the struggle is that when people finally make that decision to break up or let go the study showed that the parts of your brain that are activated in a breakup are the same as detoxing from cocaine right like you're literally trying to detox so you can have a craving yeah for someone that's bad for you yeah or also it says that the areas of the brain that are activated in a breakup are the areas that are the same with physical pain so if someone like punching the stomach the reason why we say like my heart feels broken is because it literally feels like something's broken yeah so when you're going through a breakup when you're feeling the craving to be with that person again studies show that eight over eighty percent of people are looking at what their exes are doing on social media right probably through a Finster account or whatever but you have to you have to know what are some of the healthiest tips that you've given to people and the people that you've worked with that have genuinely helped people move through a breaker the first thing is to ask yourself again why was I even there why am I holding on to this individual again I think sometimes we get so blinded by just the experience or our desire to have this person for whatever reason that we Overlook what was really missing or why this could not work anyway what you'll also find is and I'm sure there's probably a study on it where if you if they broke up with you you ever see a situation it happens on TV a lot where the person could be like okay I'm gonna break up with my partner they're planning on it they've been practicing in their head right it took them a couple weeks to muster up the strength they're about to do it and then the partner breaks up with them yeah now it's oh my gosh I gotta get them back yeah so it's like you just forgot this whole time that was your plan yeah it just gave you the past to do it but now because we don't like to be the one being let go of now we're fighting hard to get it back yeah so we have to really not fall into these little traps that happen to us as human beings our brains just playing tricks on us or something where we confuse these emotions for oh my gosh I must really love them or even like you said you go into that detox and because you miss I always tell people no matter how bad the relationship was there's always good moments so if you're trying to break free you can't just let your brain focus on the good moments you have to remind yourself why this doesn't work but if you keep focusing on the good you start to make yourself think oh because I missed this good moment I must miss them and there's this quote that says sometimes you're not missing the person you're missing the feeling so you've got to be able to differentiate those two things so getting back to how we get over these breakups is recognizing why were we really there to begin with you know could this actually work the next thing is you know I'm a huge believer that a lot of times a breakup is a blessing in disguise even if there is a chance that you two can work together or this is the one for you you may have needed this time to re-evaluate and get things in order something is obviously wrong even if you it may be something as deep as because I've seen situations where everything was going amazingly well on the surface and the person broke up with them let's say the woman lets go of the man so to the man that's really confusing but what it was is that that woman she had not healed from her past relationships and this relationship being so good was scaring her and what happens is the the better you are the scarier it becomes for her she's looking for something to be wrong she has to validate her fear somehow wow when she can't find it she'll either sabotage the relationship or she'll run from it So to that man it may seem like this is so unfair which yeah it sucks but if this woman didn't break up with you now you were inevitably gonna face this same ending but at a worse time yeah all right this is still best that is happening now at least if she can go do what she needs to do there's a chance for this to come back around later but it's hard for us to see it in the moment so I think just really we also have to focus on our healing whenever a breakup happens the mistake we make is that we think it's about healing from the breakup no it's healing from everything you've been through you've probably been sleeping under the rug your childhood trauma for years maybe the last two three relationships whatever it is so and and not healing from those things is contributing to your struggle to get past this breakup and contributing to why you even chose this person to begin with I'm a huge believer that if you haven't healed you are 90 likely to choose the wrong person yeah it's just too difficult to pick that person that you truly love and can truly love you and accept that level of vulnerability when you have still not resolved your past traumas and past hurts yeah so to me that's the next big thing is just focus on your healing process because in that process you will also be able to see more clearly if this is really for you or not like walking around unhealed is like walking around with broken glasses you you can't see straight no matter how hard you try but healing will clear up your vision really really fast and now it'd be like oh wait a minute I didn't belong there yeah you know thank God the broke breakup happened you know now I'm in a better place I move forward so to me I think and I would say in addition to those things is just have an accountability partner whether that's friend coach therapist someone that can help keep you in check help remind you what you need to do someone that you know you have to talk to and update what's going on so you feel like okay I don't want to come back so I'm saying I'm doing the same thing over and over again it doesn't guarantee success but it helps it helps move the needle some so I would highly encourage that that one mindset you spoke about that that changes everything and it hit me today I was just thinking if we were just able in a moment to recognize that something painful now was going to be good for us in five years time that would change so many things in our life yes but we're so poor at dealing with current pain yeah even if it means future joy that we just can't accept that I have to go through this like in everything right like knowing that someone breaking up with you just saved you 10 years of a wasted life is so much more than knowing you're gonna have to go through a few months of pain and 10 months of pain maybe it's a bit longer maybe it's two three years but we just have to get our head around that that sometimes the best things that happen to you are protecting more of your life than the pain that they're causing you need the Peace of knowing I did what I needed to do that's it yeah because anytime you feel like well maybe I could have done this but I could have done that leaves the door open for doubt do it well exactly so it's like and that's why I'm such a big believer in you know there's people who say well once they're done they're done they'll just move on and I'm like no no Express Yourself get everything off your chest because you don't need anything to linger and you questioning well what if I did this different no make sure speak your full piece and now you can say all right I did what I had to do it is what it is I move forward and I mean it makes it easier it may not make it a hundred percent you know not an issue whatsoever but it's gonna be easier and also also for me that's why like my relationship with God is so important because that's where I find my peace in dealing with a situation that doesn't work out the way I want to I always tell myself okay if this isn't working out God has something better for me you know if this is happening right now there's a purpose because I know if I followed his guidance throughout this process there's no need for me to question why is this the current outcome there's a reason for this and I've been through these things enough times to see as you mentioned the reward is going to come it may come next week it may come years from now it will come and I'll be able to see how it all connected yeah Stefan it's been incredible talking to you man this has been such a great back-to-back flowing conversation uh we end every on purpose episode with the final five which is like a rapid fire which means every question has to be answered with one word to one sentence maximum okay so here are your final five the first question is what's the best relationship advice you've ever received or heard or given it is to love fully lovefully and be yourself because as I said earlier that's how you will expose quicker who is for you and who isn't for you second question what is the worst relationship advice you've ever heard or received get under someone to get over someone [Laughter] uh question number three uh how would you defin	it the wrong way once I kind of looked at the definition again and compatibility is about two people coexisting in harmony yeah then I was like okay no you you have to have that I just I got caught up more so in like let's say a dating site says okay we're gonna decide who's compatible so I view compatible as like an on the paper it looks good it's supposed to match but you can have a lot of people who are supposed to be compatible and it doesn't work absolutely so I think that it's compatibility is that add-on once we have the connection and the chemistry now we have to create that Harmony which is the compatibility yes I agree with you and and it is interesting how that word compatibility is thrown around and you're so right that compatibility on paper doesn't mean compatibility in real life exactly and to me compatibility really has another word inside of it which is like adaptability and that deeper understanding of an individual where you know how much you're willing to adapt around certain parts of the relationship but we'll get to that I think a lot of people like you know and and that's where we got into this conversation around what is slow a lot of people are waiting to feel like is this person wasting my time are they the one and so they don't have a deeper connection maybe they had that spark of	8	4	6	it the wrong way once I kind of looked at the definition again and compatibility is about two people coexisting in harmony yeah then I was like okay no you you have to have that I just I got caught up more so in like let's say a dating site says okay we're gonna decide who's compatible so I view compatible as like an on the paper it looks good it's supposed to match but you can have a lot of people who are supposed to be compatible and it doesn't work absolutely so I think that it's compatibility is that add-on once we have the connection and the chemistry now we have to create that Harmony which is the compatibility	yes I agree with you and and it is interesting how that word compatibility is thrown around and you're so right that compatibility on paper doesn't mean compatibility in real life exactly and to me compatibility really has another word inside of it which is like adaptability and that deeper understanding of an individual where you know how much you're willing to adapt around certain parts of the relationship	6,4,8	8,2,6	6	4	8	8	2	6
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPQBcb9wf8Q	4,056	mPQBcb9wf8Q	2023-03-27 00:00:00	you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you're wasting your time the best-selling author and host the number one Health and Wellness podcast on purpose with Jay Shetty what are the signs that someone deeply loves you because I feel like we live in this world where we're always wondering do they love me do they like me do they really like me are they really into me how do you know when you deeply love someone and when someone deeply loves you how do you even know so I'm gonna start with an answer that people probably won't expect to me the first key is do you truly love them because look at it like this to me a lot of people get caught up in infatuation um they have unhealthy attachments they have different motivations to why they decided this is the person that I want and that can make them feel like they're in love but to me true love flows both ways it's not a one-sided thing so when you can say I I'm not into them like that if we look deep into that situation I can almost guarantee what we'll find is infatuation attachment something else but when you can say no I feel it too I'm deeply in love with them I think that's your first key because without that nothing else matters because a lot of people are choosing Partners based off of what they love me so much so I assume it's safe here and this is a good choice to make but the safe choice is usually the wrong choice and a lot of these people select this individual thinking everything's going to be okay but because you're not really into them you can never be what they need and they were never truly what you needed which is why you never even got to that level with them so to choose them without first evaluating do you truly love them would not be wise yeah that's that's a great question and I think people struggle with that question too because I think we think of love as so many different things wrapped into one for example I could think I love someone because of how they treat me I could think I love someone because they have one quality that I really wish I had or I could love someone because I think that they're out of my league and they give me a bit of attention yeah and so what we think is love is so complex and so wide that we never stop to ask ourselves like what does love mean like what's the definition of love like how do I Define love so how do you define love and how do you encourage other people to create their definitions of Love well for me first off is always God is love and then when we take it from there love is about kindness compassion patience understanding a willingness to be selfless important to that individual but I think what's also important for people to understand is when we're trying to apply it to romantic relationships we have to understand that there's other ingredients that are necessary before we can move forward so you could love someone dearly but if they are not emotionally ready because maybe they haven't healed from their past maybe there's still some things that need to work out in their life then it wouldn't be time to move forward in a relationship with them and we have this bad habit of the minute we feel like there's love there we want to move forward exactly and as you mentioned we can get caught up sometimes in but we love them because of what they do for us but what are you prepared to do for them love is about giving all right so we have to ask ourselves okay do we know what their needs are are we willing to fulfill those needs because if not maybe this wasn't love maybe it just felt good in the moment maybe you got caught up in the hype and that's okay it happens to almost all of us if not all of us at some point in life but we have to just be real very clear with ourselves about what's really driving the intention right now but I think all those things I mentioned is what encompasses love of and that's like the foundation of it and then from there we have to look at some other things to see how we can move forward so many times like you you convince yourself something's love and what I find really interesting is that so many people fall in love too fast and no one wants to go for the slow patient understanding love which is what love requires you just said love is kind love is patient love is understanding those things take time I think those things take time to nurture and to to make sure that we're doing it correctly for each other so it's about learning each other's Love Languages and how we make it work in within that Dynamic I think also because so many people are not used to dealing with emotions at on that level being that vulnerable people mishandle it all right so it takes time for us to get to a place so we understand how to manage this and work through this however I think that I'm a huge believer in connection and I believe connection is like your spirit recognizing its match and it's very instant when you speak to couples who said they experience a connection they'll tell you first conversation first time meeting first date first week it was pretty fast so to me the the recognizing of something deeper being here can happen very quickly but how we now cultivate that and how we move forward is where we need to take our time and make sure we're not rushing and overlooking certain important issues that need to be discussed and addressed first to me it's the understanding of chemistry versus compatibility and the idea that there needs to be a spark there needs to be a connection that I feel with someone like you're saying on a deeper level but I find that I find that most people are not Adept and knowing whether the connection they feel with someone is deeper or physical yeah like I would say that it's easy to it you can often feel a spark with if you meet a lot of people you can feel a spot with a lot of people but that doesn't mean that they're the right person to build a relationship absolutely right yes so it's connection to me is a very rare occurrence right yes so I feel that people who've actually experienced it they can tell you maybe once in their life if you're lucky two times maybe all right but it's not this thing that happens with everybody whereas chemistry uh feeling of spark these things can happen with a lot of different people yeah so I do think there's there's this education that's needed to understand how we differentiate these things so that we don't confuse them because I see a lot of people take that chemistry and think oh this is it this is the one it's like but you had chemistry with the last five people why is this one the one and not them so I do think we have to be careful with that yeah I think so so we're on the same page there's three things there's connection on the deeper level there's chemistry which is like the spark on a more superficial level and then there's compatibility which is like what makes get lost and I can relate to that with my wife I definitely felt so I I'm one of those people who I kind of knew from the first few moments when I met my wife before she was my wife was like I was like yeah this is my person like I felt that way yeah for sure I felt that connection and there was chemistry there too but it had to be turned into compatibility in order to create a long lasting relationship we've been together for 10 years we're still learning building going through everything but that was a big part of it so that I can get behind is do you see it that way too or is there something different in so how do you see it believe it or not I used to make compatibility the least important but that was because I was looking at it the wrong way once I kind of looked at the definition again and compatibility is about two people coexisting in harmony yeah then I was like okay no you you have to have that I just I got caught up more so in like let's say a dating site says okay we're gonna decide who's compatible so I view compatible as like an on the paper it looks good it's supposed to match but you can have a lot of people who are supposed to be compatible and it doesn't work absolutely so I think that it's compatibility is that add-on once we have the connection and the chemistry now we have to create that Harmony which is the compatibility yes I agree with you and and it is interesting how that word compatibility is thrown around and you're so right that compatibility on paper doesn't mean compatibility in real life exactly and to me compatibility really has another word inside of it which is like adaptability and that deeper understanding of an individual where you know how much you're willing to adapt around certain parts of the relationship but we'll get to that I think a lot of people like you know and and that's where we got into this conversation around what is slow a lot of people are waiting to feel like is this person wasting my time are they the one and so they don't have a deeper connection maybe they had that spark of chemistry and now that's kind of subsided how do you know if someone's wasting your time how do you know if you're letting yourself be used or wasted in that way so to me again I think it always starts with self and you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you because just use an example let's say you're a woman and the only reason why you're holding on to this guy is because he's a nice guy you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you figure let me try to make it work you're wasting your time this is where you're setting yourself up for disaster every single time so if it's not born out of a true connection love a genuine desire you really like this individual of course there's always things we have to work through but is the foundation strong enough for us to say okay we can make something special here and I think once we are honest with ourselves that kind of helps answer the question because sometimes we get so caught up trying to animal lies the other individual that is like we get in our heads and now we're missing the mark on what's really important here and we can't always say for sure what's going on with them I will say that in general if this person isn't willing to talk about things they're wasting your time if they're not willing to address or correct things that have been talked about they're wasting your time if you guys aren't on the same page about what you want and where you want to go in life wasting time so there are some things I think we can just look at and say listen this is pointless here but a lot of times and I have to say this especially for women women's intuition is extremely powerful I'm a huge believer in it and I feel like women know very early this isn't it but they rationalize reasons to convince themselves to give this man a chance and this again is a waste of time because it just doesn't work I've seen people turn what should have been maybe a couple weeks of dating into years of being married to someone they were not happy with all because they did not listen to themselves from the beginning they knew what it was but they just could not accept it for what it was yeah and I love that point on intuition it's almost like when a relationship finally ends a lot of us think to ourselves I knew they weren't right yeah like I knew it I knew that they weren't the one but you just didn't listen to that part of yourself yes so so let's break it down for people let's help people out we started talking about three very important words connection which you defined chemistry which we've defined in compatibility which we've defined how do people know the difference between connection and chemistry when they meet someone because I find that the science shows that you're experiencing dopamine and cortisol at the same times you're experiencing the reward chemical and stress chemical at the same time which gives you that chemistry feeling which is the feeling of butterflies in your stomach or like do they like me are they into me what should I wear that kind of feeling but then you're talking about a deeper connection how do you hear the difference because I think a lot of us just get swept up in the feeling of I'm So Into that person they're so into me how do you know so I think one is are you even being yourself or can you be yourself with this individual if if you're presenting your representative then this is not a real connection this is them falling for that person that you're presenting but that's not real so to me you have you should be already being yourself but with that person you have a connection with it's a more natural flow we don't have to force it we just feel so much more comfortable around them I think in addition to that is when you when you find yourself all caught up in the moment and caught up in that chemistry again you have to ask yourself what am I really attaching myself to what about what do I really like about this individual what I find is that when it's really about chemistry we're still on the surface you don't really know about them yet you just know you guys had a good time maybe you had fun at this event you guys were able to talk about a lot of different things which is great which is gonna also be important if there is a connection however do you even know what college did they want do you know what kind of Life they want to live you know are you guys really on the same page I think connection is our paths align our purpose is align so for us to align we have to have a deeper understanding of where we're headed and can we head there together so so that's why I think though you may feel it or you may feel like you're feeling it you have to do your due diligence to dig deeper to find out okay is this just I got caught up on the surface or there is something real here yeah and I think once we ask enough questions because I think that's the other big problem we have this experience where we feel this chemistry we're so excited and now we're afraid to ask questions because we don't want to blow up the fantasy yes you know what I'm saying we're just like no no I want to keep believing this is great so let me not ask anything let me not run this person away let me not rock the boat but that's going to be what tells us if this is real or not yes I think you're I think you've hit on something there like we're so scared of losing someone that we're okay with not asking important questions and discovering important truths that actually define whether this relationship is going to last absolutely and that is ultimately going back to your point earlier that is ultimately you not being yourself right you're losing yourself scared that you're going to lose the other person so you're okay with not being yourself do you think it's ever okay this is a funny question I think but I have to ask you because I think it's a healthy discussion do you think it's ever okay to present different sides of yourself in order to attract someone or do you think that you're ultimately setting yourself up for failure in a relationship almost like I think a lot of people they may not become someone completely different but I think a lot of people are like oh I'm gonna show my smart side because it will attract this person or I'm gonna show my this side because they're like that are you saying any of that kind of molding is unhealthy or do you think there's room for that I think anything that is not sustainable is unhealthy so look at it as if I'm a man and I'm meeting this woman I want to impress her so I'm like okay I'm gonna try to spend all my money take a nice five-star restaurant all these things but deep inside I prefer a more simple lifestyle you know I don't like all that extra stuff okay that's horrible that's a sale for disaster that's unhealthy because you can't sustain what you're presenting to that individual that's gonna draw them in so whatever it is another like common example is you'll have women who love to communicate they want to be able to talk to you every single day but because they're afraid of coming off a certain kind of way they'll hold back on their communication so now they'll make it seem like they're okay with talking every now and then we don't always have to text and then this guy falls for that he falls for this low standard I won't call low standard but not having such a high expectation of him when it comes to communication then he finally gets with the woman her true self is going to come out at some point no one can suppress their true self forever it comes out and now it's like what is this I did not sign up for this now we're fighting now we're stressed because you want him to call you more he was used to you not being worried about it so much that's why it's going to always not work out so it's extremely unhealthy unless we're presenting a side of us that is truly us and we can sustain it you've hit on something again that that at the beginning of relationships we often display unrealistic standards and we set those yes and then when things shift and now you're back in reality again the other person's like but wait a minute I thought you were really into me and I even went through that with my wife when we first met I was able to spend pretty much every day with her because I didn't have a job and so I was looking for work I was applying I would go see her at her College every day and I would spend the day with her and I'd be in the library applying for jobs while she was studying yeah and I could see it every day and I think I saw every day potentially for like six months maybe every single day five days a week at least and then when I got a job that wasn't the case anymore because I was at work now and I'd set this unrealistic expectation that we could see each other all the time and even in the beginning I would see her all the time because I'd spend time with her family but we wouldn't spend time with my family because I hadn't told my family yet and so now that my family knew we were trying to split the time and all of a sudden it was like wait a minute we used to spend time at my house and so even in little things like that it took a bit of adapting because I'd set a false standard in our relationship and then thankfully my wife was adapting and she understood and she got it and it was fine but I think for so many people you set unrealistic expectations in who you are yes and that's hard to come back from absolutely yeah and that's why it's so important for us to know who we are so that we can present the real from the jump you know because again A lot of times people you know this idea that we're always changing yes I do think we're always evolving but some of the big shifts that you see are is not because that's just the way life is it's because you did take the time to figure yourself out first and then you got with this person and now you want them to adjust now thank God for you she was able to adjust but there's a lot of people that they can't handle that yeah and now everything falls apart from there so that's why yeah we have to be very careful with what we're presenting from the beginning yeah it's I I agree with you on that that we think people change but actually they just start to understand themselves exactly they went from being completely unconscious about who they were you met an unconscious version of a person yeah and now you think they're changing but they just became conscious of who they are absolutely and but the thing is Stefan as you know like Society doesn't encourage that time of getting to know yourself right when you're young you're not trained in how to think about who you want to be you're trained in thinking about what you want to I do it's about your job it's about your career you're not thinking about who you are as a human being or as a person so how do we in this Society where understanding who you are is not clear it's not encouraged where where does one start or where have you kind of found great insights in trying to discover who we are I would love to see more parents encouraging their children to explore how they're feeling about who they are like what I have found is a lot of people who let's say I I had one client where she wanted to be an actress when she was a little kid uh but parents kind of push in a different direction now she's like a social worker but her desire is still to be an actress like the things that they they wanted to do they they want to do as an adult now you can find back in their childhood in a lot of cases so I feel like too many people have stifled their children's growth in certain areas with limited ideas of well this can't make money or this wouldn't be a good look for the family or whatever the case may be it's like no let them walk in it and see for themselves if that's really where they belong outside of that for me I think the big thing is getting in tune spiritually I'm just a huge believer in that I feel like me finding myself was when I went into what I call my Wilderness period I kind of just shut everything off that I was doing because I used to be all over having fun partying all these different things things and then God kind of slapped me upside my head and I had to like really pull away from everything and go deeper from within and it felt like a process of breaking me down to build me right back up and that's when I start to see things clearer because what I realized is the world is filled with distractions and it's the distractions why we can't see ourselves for who we really are if we simply shut off the distractions long enough you will learn a lot so even if someone just took a year off don't worry you know limit the TV you're watching limit the music you're listening to limit all the internet stuff just really go deeper within yourself spend more time alone spend more time you know thinking and processing you will learn a lot because again a lot of it is it isn't a problem of we don't know ourselves we are not aware and we're not willing to accept and once we allow ourselves to do those two things become aware and then accept it we become free yeah I I mean I agree with you I think that I've always been a big proponent of solitude to understand who you are because as soon as you have another person you now have another person's opinions you have to filter yes as soon as you have another person in front of you you have another person's judgments to filter and so now you can't even say what you truly think about something because you're constantly thinking what does that person think about me and my beliefs and so understanding your beliefs in solitude allows you to be really clear about what your values and beliefs are and and that's what it's there for I think when people get into if we switch to compatibility again the idea we talked about the difference between connection and chemistry but compatibility is really interesting because a lot of people believe that relationships should be hard and they require hard work and a lot of people believe relationships should be easy and everything should just flow where have you kind of discovered your lens on that Spectrum so okay there's a there's a couple ways to look at it I think that most relationships and I'll even be more specific most relations that involve connection and true love are typically hard not because relationships have to be hard but because most people have been hurt by something in their life are holding on to past traumas haven't resolved it once they meet this individual that they feel so strongly about it is scary this is where things get difficult it's the difficultness in how do I handle this how do I manage this you'll have people feel like they're losing themselves but they're not losing themselves their true self is coming out and it's it's the self that's been hiding behind that wall they've been using for quote-unquote protection but I always say the same module to protect you the same as blocking your blessings so now they're being pulled from behind it it's it's makes them feel some kind of way and again people start to mishandle things you also have situations where people are getting bad advice like I'm gonna give one example um there's this uh book called The Game by Neil Strauss I don't know if you ever read that book yeah it was great Neil you know you you answer that world to pick up artistry we learned it and he was great with the women but then once he found that woman that he fell in love with all that stuff doesn't work anymore so you have a lot of men being taught how to handle women in general but they don't understand that's not how you handle the woman you truly love and so now again you have individuals who though they are truly in love with this person they constantly mishandle it with bad Guidance with fear and all these things this is what makes it hard and and I even think that a lot of times the people who are supposed to be together sometimes will have the hardest time getting together but I believe that once we're able to conquer that part of it and actually come together it's not hard yes it takes work I believe we have to be conscious and mindful of how we treat our partners how we show up being willing to listen but I think it's so much easier to do those things with someone you have a connection with and you're truly in love with it's gonna always feel ten times harder when you're in the wrong relationship and I would argue the vast majority of people are in the wrong relationship that's why they're seeing it be so difficult and when you see this whole it's easy typically it's easy because you have two people who are not digging deeper they're they're trying to write out that chemistry we talked about earlier for as long as possible all right so yeah it seems like it's great it's easy no issues but it doesn't really work like that because they're just not facing the reality of the situation so I think we we have to understand that there is going to be some bumps in the road because of all the things that people have been through but once we're able to come together and we know this is our partner this is who we want to share our life with it can get so much better yeah and do you do you think that people have just been given generally the wrong education on how to deal with another person in their life 100 yeah because unfortunately a lot of individuals are giving advice from a bit or hurt place there and and they're trying to disguise it as I'm just looking out for you no you you have inhaled and you cannot properly guide them in a positive and loving Manner and I think that a lot of people you know I always say it's funny how we'll spend a lot of time getting educated for the for the sake of our careers and business but we don't do the same for relationships and yet relationships arguably are even more important than that career business and even if it's not a romantic relationship just relationships in general your ability to coexist with others connect with others is extremely important if you want that business to succeed you have to learn how to establish business relationships there's no way around it so we have to learn how to talk to people listen to people you know what I'm saying and just make make things work when we come together with other individuals so I definitely think that we're just lacking in a lot of education and again too many because there's so many voices on the internet now there's just so much bad advice being given and and the individuals giving it they may be giving like let's say 80 of the advice is accurate but it's that 20 that's completely off that can derail everything and that's the stuff that people are gravitating to and this is causing a lot of problems can you give us some example of some of the like not specific people or anything like that I just mean like could you give example of bad advice and what about it is bad or unhealthy for people to try and put into practice okay so one thing I heard recently was an individual told uh said some of the best advice you can give to men is to not fall in love you know basically just find a woman you want to be with and kind of keep it there the reason why I view that as horrible advice is because you sit down with any man who's lived enough life they will all be able to say there's been at least one time they fail deeply for a woman all right the problem isn't falling deep before a woman the problem is we don't know how to handle it once we get there the problem is because we're not accustomed to handling and processing our emotions a certain kind of way and being this vulnerable we don't understand what's going to be required of us in that moment we also kind of lose sight of because I'm a big believer in masculine and feminine energy and I believe that if she was attracted to you because of that masculine energy that you give off and now you become this emotional wreck because you don't know how to handle all these feelings you have for her well you start to become less attractive to her and it's not that it's not fixable it's fixable but again a lack of understanding and awareness derails the situation so rather than telling men don't fall in love because it's inevitable let's teach them how we walk in love how we make what I call Loving in your masculine how you maintain that energy and still be able to pour into that woman in a way that allows relationship to flourish yeah and how does that work when I think obviously a lot of people in that example that you're giving if if the person is attracted to someone because of their masculine energy but at the same time they want them to be empathetic and compassionate and kind which are generally seen as more feminine energy how does that person balance the two or is that is that not how you're explaining is that no it's about balance so we have to understand we all have masculine and feminine of course within us I'm a Believer in one must be your dominant energy the other is the one you tap into when necessary so as a man you can walk in your masculine and in those moments tap into those things but you can't just stay there all the time all right you can't just become this needy emotional God that's not going to work in the vast majority of cases and so what happens is there's this messaging that's being thrown out there that women don't like good guys I don't believe that's what it is I believe that women become less attracted when you don't know how to exude and walk in your masculine energy it's and and we're hiding behind the label of good guy you can be a good guy and still exude masculine energy and that's the thing and we also think that oh they like bad boys no if you look deeper it's really the masculine energy that that quote-unquote bad boy exudes but what they desire is a mixture of both the same way that we would want a mixture of both we would want a loving sweet woman family woman whatever or and if you're a guy who wants a mask and woman cool but you don't want her to be just that you know you want her to have the ability to tap into that other side when necessary I think we all desire that balance in our partner and I think it's healthy and if we just learn how to maintain it and how to nurture it we would see greater success in relationships yeah what are some of the skills with with mastering that energy that you think we're missing out on and balancing that energy and knowing when to be which and because the reason why it's hard is I think we live in a binary world right like you feel like you have to choose like you're either a bad boy or you're a good girl you are a doer or you're a thinker you're uh winner or you're a loser right like we think like that and some people go okay you need to be masculine or I can be feminine and I I definitely relate to what you were saying like I believe that there is a lot about me that is massively masculine in energy using that language and terminology my drive my ambition how I work my strategic mind and at the same time I consider myself to have a lot of great feminine energy and qualities where it comes to like empowering others and nurturing and the ability to hold deep compassionate space and be empathetic which are all powerful qualities for for everyone right Beyond gender they're powerful qualities and I appreciate and it's taken a long time to know when to be which and it's still and I still make mistakes right there's still sometimes like I should have been more assertive I should have been more affectionate so we live in a world that finds it hard to hold two opposing ideas at the same time yeah we don't know how to do that in any sphere of life let alone within ourselves so what are some of the skills that we can learn in order to nurture both those energies in a healthy way inside of ourselves so I think one it's going to require a lot of if you're already in a relationship it's going to boil down to a lot of transparency and communication you know her if you're that man trying to understand that woman and when you can walk in those two energies her being willing to be honest and open about you know what this was too much over here or I needed some of this over here and in time you're going to become more aware and understanding it's going to be like second nature to you you won't have to overthink it and I think part of it is not overthinking it it's kind of like being ourselves but understanding that we have to learn when this is doing too much and vice versa I also think that in reality for a lot of men especially uh when we're talking about relationships and kind of losing that masculine energy the the underlying issue is fear all right when we become so afraid of losing this woman we lose ourselves and so a lot of men now fall into this very feminine needy space because they're just afraid we have to learn that listen like to me I feel if your partner thinks you're never gonna walk away from them no matter what they do you've lost that's that's a horrible place to be in we have to get to a place where we both understand that as long as we show up the way that we need to show up for each other we have each other's back we will be here but neither of us will tolerate an unhealthy relationship and someone who blatantly does not want to work on making this better I would want my the woman I'm with to feel that way and I need to feel that way once we understand that and you have the confidence of I can walk away if I have to that shifts your energy right there in itself and now you don't find yourself falling into that place where again you start to look a lot more unattractive or for some men they become yes men in their relationships thinking that makes her happy that's turning her off she doesn't want you to be her yes man she wants you to stand up for yourself sometimes give your opinion give your perspective she wants to be able to you know if anything be able to have discussions with you about these things not just you say whatever you want whatever you want whatever you want over time it becomes a problem so I think that once we conquer that fear once we create a space where we can talk about these moments and not feel some kind of way I think sometimes men are not they struggle with taking the criticism from their partner men and women we we all do when we feel when we have actual feelings for someone you know we don't care about you it's not as big of a deal but we're emotionally invested we're more sensitive to it but we have to understand that these criticisms are for the sake of making things better and strengthening this relationship so once we can get to that place it's going to be so much easier to grow in it and then I think it's just a matter of understanding that it's this balance isn't just for your relationship so look at it like from a sports perspective if I'm on a basketball team there may be moments where I need to take the lead and recognize all right everyone else is down someone needs to step up this is my moment and then there's other moments where I realize okay let's say we already have a team captain let me show them that I can follow serve do what needs to be done so that the team can win it's just becoming aware of what the moment requires you know and again I think the more in tune we get the more in tune we get with ourselves and the more in tune we get with our partner the easier it becomes to find that balance that's the challenge right the challenge is just how much patience we have with ourselves and others to realize that you walked into an imbalance unbalanced situation and now it's like how much patience how much time are we going to give it to get to that because the challenge is I think we walk into a situation thinking it's perfect whereas we should be walking into a relationship knowing it's imperfect absolutely and we're going to learn and figure it out together and I think that's what sets us up for failure is because we walk into it going it's perfect and deep down we know it isn't but somehow we gloss over it whereas I find when I know we're gonna fight when I know we're gonna argue and I know there's going to be disagreements that sets me up to develop the skills I need in order to navigate those things yes but if I assume like oh we're never gonna fight and I always get that right we always meet someone who goes to I mean a friend who goes to me Jay we never fight I'm like how long have you been together because I don't I don't know anyone who never fights I get that no one has to get to like yeah the heights of fights yeah I did that I did that it doesn't have to be a heated fight but I don't know anyone who doesn't disagree there you go all right right I think that's important for people to understand yeah there's a difference yes you have some individuals out there that'll say arguing is normal it's healthy and to me it's like listen if we're talking about arguing where we're now Crossing disrespectful lines negative lines you know the way that we the tone we take with each other all these things that's not healthy yes it may happen you should be prepared for that but it does let's not normalize it just gonna keep doing this and it's it is what it is but you're right to to be with each other long enough and never have a disagreement that's extremely rare okay extremely rare and I do think that again as you mentioned we have to be ready for those moments we have to understand and going back to how we find that balance especially as men and even for women it's recognizing so for example if my partner is in a very heated moment let's say she's in her masculine right now all right she's getting rough well meeting her with more masculine is probably going to only make things worse yeah this is the time for me to be compassionate go to her hold her calm her down bring her peace in that moment you see because it we need to balance each other out same thing on the flip side if I'm all heated and I'm I'm extra passionate and then my woman now comes with that same energy that's it now where button has this is her moment to say no let me now be the one to soften the moment up bring that Sweetness in there and everybody calms down so it's learning how to feed off of each other and recognize okay they're over here let me bring it back over here and now we can work from that point and we're both good the problem is that we all see compassion and sweetness and kindness in those moments as a weakness we don't want to be that person because we see that as losing we see that as giving in we see that as us losing our power and strength in a relationship if we become the comforter or if we become the carer right like that's that's a perception that is the perception and we have to change that that is the power position so who is more powerful the person that lets the energy dictate them how they're going to react or the person that brings the energy and dictates how they're going to make this situation play out so if I'm coming in to calm it down and being all sweet because I'm trying to bring peace here I'm in the power position I'm not losing anything I'm gonna gain more peace and happiness and Harmony if I succeed in what I'm trying to do so we have to get out of that mindset of this makes us weaker and that is the big key of it that's a big problem that for a lot of women who struggle with their feminine energy that's a big issue where they feel that being feminine is weakness it's what got them taken advantage of and got them hurt but I always say it's not the feminine energy that's the problem it's who you give it to do they respect it did they honor it you know it's the same thing as a man does she respect your masculine if she doesn't then that might just be a sign you're with the wrong person but don't stop being that guy because the woman who's best for you is going to need that in those moments that that's exactly what it is is that when people have been their best selves for the wrong person that person brings out the worst in them yes right like when someone's been their best loving kindness self but someone took advantage of it that person now thinks next time I've got to be aggressive I've got to be you know powerful I've got to be strong in this way and I feel like that's kind of what most people are dealing with we know that is that you're just dealing with a wounded version of someone yes not a healed version of someone but I think people struggle to trust again and again especially when they see the same patterns in the person they're weird and I guess the question is why do we keep making the same mistakes because I feel like a lot of us keep dating the same people yeah and there's a part of us that also just keeps closing off or being more wounded it's almost like if you cut yourself you now walk around with your hand over that you don't want to get cut again and then if you lead it off and it gets cut even deeper now you're even more conscious of that and so I find that people are doing that where they're closing their heart more and more because it's been so misused and abused and I understand that I understand people don't want to be abused and misused but I guess the question is how do people find people that they know respect them so that they can be their best version or be a better version of themselves so you know you can't drive out Darkness with more Darkness you can't expose someone who's gonna hurt you by being someone who's closed off and holding back yourself we have it's kind of what we were just talking about we have to look at being vulnerable loving and open as not just well I'm setting myself to be hurt no it's how you expose people faster if I come with that energy and you cannot respect it match it then I know you don't belong here but if I hold back I give you a free pass to hold back so now we have two individuals who are hiding behind their walls because it's comfortable there but you can't really see what's what do we really have in front of us those walls are blinding you and you can't properly evaluate the situation so one we we got to get to a place of healing from our past so that we're not just walking around with the hand over the cut no you you gotta let the cup breathe you gotta let it heal all right holding on put your hand on there is delaying the process and like you said all that's gonna happen is when you finally take your hand off but you're taking it off with the wrong person and you haven't learned see what I want people to realize is your actions weren't the problem meaning you being loving sweet kind compassionate wasn't the problem it was the person separate those two things that you don't stop doing the good things now granted are there levels to this to where we have to learn again if I'm thinking about a man if you got so deeply emotional to where you kind of lost your your masculine energy and you became very needy okay you can say all right I need to continue to be loving but I know I have to learn how to draw a line I have to learn how not to cross that moment and again you only crossed it because you were unhealthy to begin with you only cross it because you were afraid to begin with once you get to that place where you're healthy and confident you won't find yourself Crossing that line anymore yeah you won't tolerate certain things anymore so we have to heal we have to be confident and we have to let our light shine so that we can expose what's in front of us easier that's a brilliant answer I I love the differentiation between how sharing your light is not the problem the person's the problem because we yeah we start to doubt whether being a good person a loving person is actually what wins in the world yeah and the truth is that it does win but it has to win with someone who can receive it and absolutely hold that space with you and share that space with you and I find that a lot of people keep giving that energy to the wrong person because we feel we can make them better right like there's this feeling of like I can change this person I can make them better I can heal them there's some of us want to fix people yeah and that means we assume the person we're with is broken and I think this is such a subconscious thing like if you're always critiquing if you're always picking at stuff with your partner chances are you don't think they're great like just now you think there's some issues with them when you think that you can fix them and they're broken tell us about that angle where now we're almost we've talked about being the loving and kind person but sometimes we're being the person that thinks we're loving and kind because we want to improve someone but that person doesn't want to improve one big problem is that what's really driving people to pick that individual is that by being the one that can upgrade you improve you I have more value here by having more value I have a false sense of security you have to appreciate me you're less likely to walk away you're less likely to cheat because you're lucky to have me I feel like I'm the prize here but those situations never really work because again you're choosing someone that is not capable of pouring into you the way you need you're basing this off of what you could do for them and that's not sustainable and you're choosing them because again you have more emotional control here what happens to so many people especially women it's something that I call the unhealthy love cycle of women where women in their first love experience outside of any childhood trauma may have experienced they're their most loving they're just out there they go all the way in but that typically happens at a younger age at an age where men are not mature enough to handle those kind of emotions that level of commitment so on and so forth so she gets hurt after she gets hurt her moment is saying to herself I will never let this happen to me again so now the woman starts to consciously or subconsciously choose men who are I don't want to say lower than hurt but essentially a man who does not take her there he's good enough to be with but I'm not that vulnerable with him he can't hurt me like that first love hurt me and so that Dynamic usually leads to picking that person I can fix I can make better who will appreciate and respect me but again it doesn't work out and many times you'll see these same situations the guy will move on to cheat on her not because and I have to say this because some women think yeah he's just being a man no not because he's a man but because you chose a man that you could never be the woman that he needed and he could never be the man that you needed once he kind of either gets what he needs from you to build himself up or the Smoke Clears from him being infatuated with you he starts to realize I'm not getting everything that I desire and now you building him up has brought him more attention from other women so now the the difference between what you're not giving him and what someone else is willing to give him becomes way clearer now the Temptation gets way stronger and he ends up doing something or she ends up cheating as well because he's safe but he doesn't fulfill her he doesn't satisfy her he he doesn't excite her in any kind of way and that's why I always said earlier like the safe choice is almost always the wrong choice but that is a function of people trying to choose these fix or uppers because they think it's going to give them some leverage there it's leverage that's it yeah it's leverage yeah how do you know when it's time to go like how do you know when it's like I feel like this is a common question where it's like how do you know when it's just I've tried everything we've tried together tried our best maybe we went to therapy maybe we got a coach or maybe you know maybe we didn't do those things how do I just know that I feel like I need to go but I'm scared of being alone yeah I'm I'm scared of dealing with the reality that I put in a lot of energy and I feel like you said this earlier but a lot of people stay in something for a lot longer than they should because they'd rather not be alone yes they'd rather not face reality they'd rather not lose two years of their life they'd rather lose two more thinking that this this should stay like how do you know when it's time to go let me first say this yes I think I think Society needs to change their thinking as far as Letting Go doesn't always mean it can't work out later it's just that it cannot work out under these circumstances all right because some people say well I feel like they're the one okay maybe they are but maybe the time is not right and it's letting go that will allow you both to do what needs to be done in your own personal lives that would allow you to come back together and have something way more amazing so that's number one thing to consider but outside of that it's when one if that person is unwilling to put in the work necessary it's time to go there's like so many times I'll I'll have a video go up about communication and someone will comment saying I've tried talking to him and he doesn't want to talk to me and in my head I'm like why are you still with them if he refuses to talk to you you've already tried there's nothing else to do but people will let it Linger on and continue why they can why they consistently complain or unhappy about this specific issue it's not gonna magically get better they're not gonna just change it just because all of a sudden they see oh it needs to change no if they're fighting it now they have no reason to change it and what people have to understand you know especially with this whole trying to fix people up healing and facing your traumas is one of the hardest things for people to do so if they already have you in their life they're essentially getting the incentive or the benefit of relationship without having to do the deeper work it's almost like if I'm at a job and the job says you need to have a master's degree to work here but we're going to hire you anyway and give you time to get that master's degree if getting that degree is super hard to you you're gonna drag that out as long as possible yeah you may never get the degree until they fire you when they fire you and you realize oh my gosh if I don't do this I'll never get this person back I'll never get this opportunity back now they might go and get it because it's very tough to walk down the path of the healing process so if they're not willing to work on it you guys have already discussed it and I think that's a big thing because there's a lot of relationships that end and the couples don't even know what the real issue was so the communication they'll say well we talked about no you guys argued you guys lashed out there wasn't a clear communication as to what the problem was what is expected how do we go about this if you've done that and I believe one of the most effective ways to do that is through a letter because I feel like verbal communication of deep issues and concerns they typically don't go well you know people get distracted they forget what they want to say the other person gets defensive they're not they're listening to rebuttal not to understand but when there's a letter involved it gives you time to get everything out you can you can evaluate your tone leave no stone unturned and now they have an opportunity to process it on their time to really take it in and then you guys can come together and discuss the letter and now it's so much easier to stay on point and get everything covered if we've done that and they're still unwilling or there's still no progress It's Time to Go yeah that's great that's great advice and I for me that's the biggest one it's like you can't make something last if only one person's working on it you can't keep hoping and waiting and wishing and and like you said that ending doesn't mean forever and often I found that two people need to grow individually to be able to grow collectively and we're forcing growing together so hard but we need space to grow and if you can't grow together chances are you need to grow apart in order to see whether you grow together again or grow for someone else and all of those options are okay but we put so much pressure on people to grow together that they grow apart yeah and actually if they chose to grow apart and grow separately they could come back together if they learn the lessons and I think that's a mistake too though sometimes people think I'm gonna go learn this lesson for this person I meet a lot of people they're like okay they broke up with me because I wasn't XYZ now I'm gonna go become XYZ to win them back yeah and I always find I'm just like well no you should go become XYZ if you think you were missing XYZ but not to win them back because you don't know what they're gonna do what's your take on people trying to win people back so I 100 agree with you like if we're trying to learn or grow it needs to be for the benefit of who we are and just whoever we deal with so was almost like if I was a bad Communicator in this relationship I shouldn't learn to better communicate for that person I need to better communicate for whoever I'm going to be with if you can't see it in that light then maybe you're looking at the wrong thing my thing is this I think it all depends on what the details of the situation was what led to the breakup what were you overlooking what was missing are these fixable issues because a lot of people are trying to win back someone where the issues are not resolved so it's like what's the point of going back we're just going to go in the same cycle all over again they're letting this idea of I miss them I don't want to be without them blind them from the fact that you two did not get along well or you two don't want the same things or YouTube just whatever it is maybe there's a lack of sexual satisfaction I don't know why I feel the need to mention that but it happens a lot of times you have to stay focused on what led to the end and can this be corrected if it can cool but as you mentioned listen correcting it does not guarantee you they're coming back and even if they will come back you don't know when they may need so you may have figured yourself out in six months they might need a year and I would argue if you guys are truly meant for each other and at the end of the year you need a year too you're just overlooking some things and you're rushing the process because you want to get back to them yeah it's I've never found a situation where it was truly only one person who had problems and the other person was squeaky clean no no you thought you were but you got some stuff too you needed to correct of course so I think we have to be honest with ourselves and just keep striving to be better and rather than focus on winning them back just become the best you because if you do and there's a true connection there the opportunity will present itself again and you too will be able to make something of it and the struggle is that when people finally make that decision to break up or let go the study showed that the parts of your brain that are activated in a breakup are the same as detoxing from cocaine right like you're literally trying to detox so you can have a craving yeah for someone that's bad for you yeah or also it says that the areas of the brain that are activated in a breakup are the areas that are the same with physical pain so if someone like punching the stomach the reason why we say like my heart feels broken is because it literally feels like something's broken yeah so when you're going through a breakup when you're feeling the craving to be with that person again studies show that eight over eighty percent of people are looking at what their exes are doing on social media right probably through a Finster account or whatever but you have to you have to know what are some of the healthiest tips that you've given to people and the people that you've worked with that have genuinely helped people move through a breaker the first thing is to ask yourself again why was I even there why am I holding on to this individual again I think sometimes we get so blinded by just the experience or our desire to have this person for whatever reason that we Overlook what was really missing or why this could not work anyway what you'll also find is and I'm sure there's probably a study on it where if you if they broke up with you you ever see a situation it happens on TV a lot where the person could be like okay I'm gonna break up with my partner they're planning on it they've been practicing in their head right it took them a couple weeks to muster up the strength they're about to do it and then the partner breaks up with them yeah now it's oh my gosh I gotta get them back yeah so it's like you just forgot this whole time that was your plan yeah it just gave you the past to do it but now because we don't like to be the one being let go of now we're fighting hard to get it back yeah so we have to really not fall into these little traps that happen to us as human beings our brains just playing tricks on us or something where we confuse these emotions for oh my gosh I must really love them or even like you said you go into that detox and because you miss I always tell people no matter how bad the relationship was there's always good moments so if you're trying to break free you can't just let your brain focus on the good moments you have to remind yourself why this doesn't work but if you keep focusing on the good you start to make yourself think oh because I missed this good moment I must miss them and there's this quote that says sometimes you're not missing the person you're missing the feeling so you've got to be able to differentiate those two things so getting back to how we get over these breakups is recognizing why were we really there to begin with you know could this actually work the next thing is you know I'm a huge believer that a lot of times a breakup is a blessing in disguise even if there is a chance that you two can work together or this is the one for you you may have needed this time to re-evaluate and get things in order something is obviously wrong even if you it may be something as deep as because I've seen situations where everything was going amazingly well on the surface and the person broke up with them let's say the woman lets go of the man so to the man that's really confusing but what it was is that that woman she had not healed from her past relationships and this relationship being so good was scaring her and what happens is the the better you are the scarier it becomes for her she's looking for something to be wrong she has to validate her fear somehow wow when she can't find it she'll either sabotage the relationship or she'll run from it So to that man it may seem like this is so unfair which yeah it sucks but if this woman didn't break up with you now you were inevitably gonna face this same ending but at a worse time yeah all right this is still best that is happening now at least if she can go do what she needs to do there's a chance for this to come back around later but it's hard for us to see it in the moment so I think just really we also have to focus on our healing whenever a breakup happens the mistake we make is that we think it's about healing from the breakup no it's healing from everything you've been through you've probably been sleeping under the rug your childhood trauma for years maybe the last two three relationships whatever it is so and and not healing from those things is contributing to your struggle to get past this breakup and contributing to why you even chose this person to begin with I'm a huge believer that if you haven't healed you are 90 likely to choose the wrong person yeah it's just too difficult to pick that person that you truly love and can truly love you and accept that level of vulnerability when you have still not resolved your past traumas and past hurts yeah so to me that's the next big thing is just focus on your healing process because in that process you will also be able to see more clearly if this is really for you or not like walking around unhealed is like walking around with broken glasses you you can't see straight no matter how hard you try but healing will clear up your vision really really fast and now it'd be like oh wait a minute I didn't belong there yeah you know thank God the broke breakup happened you know now I'm in a better place I move forward so to me I think and I would say in addition to those things is just have an accountability partner whether that's friend coach therapist someone that can help keep you in check help remind you what you need to do someone that you know you have to talk to and update what's going on so you feel like okay I don't want to come back so I'm saying I'm doing the same thing over and over again it doesn't guarantee success but it helps it helps move the needle some so I would highly encourage that that one mindset you spoke about that that changes everything and it hit me today I was just thinking if we were just able in a moment to recognize that something painful now was going to be good for us in five years time that would change so many things in our life yes but we're so poor at dealing with current pain yeah even if it means future joy that we just can't accept that I have to go through this like in everything right like knowing that someone breaking up with you just saved you 10 years of a wasted life is so much more than knowing you're gonna have to go through a few months of pain and 10 months of pain maybe it's a bit longer maybe it's two three years but we just have to get our head around that that sometimes the best things that happen to you are protecting more of your life than the pain that they're causing you need the Peace of knowing I did what I needed to do that's it yeah because anytime you feel like well maybe I could have done this but I could have done that leaves the door open for doubt do it well exactly so it's like and that's why I'm such a big believer in you know there's people who say well once they're done they're done they'll just move on and I'm like no no Express Yourself get everything off your chest because you don't need anything to linger and you questioning well what if I did this different no make sure speak your full piece and now you can say all right I did what I had to do it is what it is I move forward and I mean it makes it easier it may not make it a hundred percent you know not an issue whatsoever but it's gonna be easier and also also for me that's why like my relationship with God is so important because that's where I find my peace in dealing with a situation that doesn't work out the way I want to I always tell myself okay if this isn't working out God has something better for me you know if this is happening right now there's a purpose because I know if I followed his guidance throughout this process there's no need for me to question why is this the current outcome there's a reason for this and I've been through these things enough times to see as you mentioned the reward is going to come it may come next week it may come years from now it will come and I'll be able to see how it all connected yeah Stefan it's been incredible talking to you man this has been such a great back-to-back flowing conversation uh we end every on purpose episode with the final five which is like a rapid fire which means every question has to be answered with one word to one sentence maximum okay so here are your final five the first question is what's the best relationship advice you've ever received or heard or given it is to love fully lovefully and be yourself because as I said earlier that's how you will expose quicker who is for you and who isn't for you second question what is the worst relationship advice you've ever heard or received get under someone to get over someone [Laughter] uh question number three uh how would you defin	if this person isn't willing to talk about things they're wasting your time if they're not willing to address or correct things that have been talked about they're wasting your time if you guys aren't on the same page about what you want and where you want to go in life wasting time so there are some things I think we can just look at and say listen this is pointless here but a lot of times and I have to say this especially for women women's intuition is extremely powerful I'm a huge believer in it and I feel like women know very early this isn't it but they rationalize reasons to convince themselves to give this man a chance and this again is a waste of time because it just doesn't work I've seen people turn what should have been maybe a couple weeks of dating into years of being married to someone they were not happy with all because they did not listen to themselves from the beginning they knew what it was but they just could not accept it for what it was yeah and I love that point on intuition it's almost like when a relationship finally ends a lot of us think to ourselves I knew they weren't right yeah like I knew it I knew that they weren't the one but you just didn't listen to that part of yourself yes so so let's break it down for people let's help people out	6	8	4	if this person isn't willing to talk about things they're wasting your time if they're not willing to address or correct things that have been talked about they're wasting your time if you guys aren't on the same page about what you want and where you want to go in life wasting time so there are some things I think we can just look at and say listen this is pointless here but a lot of times and I have to say this especially for women women's intuition is extremely powerful I'm a huge believer in it and I feel like women know very early this isn't it but they rationalize reasons to convince themselves to give this man a chance and this again is a waste of time because it just doesn't work I've seen people turn what should have been maybe a couple weeks of dating into years of being married to someone they were not happy with all because they did not listen to themselves from the beginning they knew what it was but they just could not accept it for what it was	I love that point on intuition it's almost like when a relationship finally ends a lot of us think to ourselves I knew they weren't right yeah like I knew it I knew that they weren't the one but you just didn't listen to that part of yourself	2,-3,5	6,4,3	2	-3	5	6	4	3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPQBcb9wf8Q	4,056	mPQBcb9wf8Q	2023-03-27 00:00:00	you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you're wasting your time the best-selling author and host the number one Health and Wellness podcast on purpose with Jay Shetty what are the signs that someone deeply loves you because I feel like we live in this world where we're always wondering do they love me do they like me do they really like me are they really into me how do you know when you deeply love someone and when someone deeply loves you how do you even know so I'm gonna start with an answer that people probably won't expect to me the first key is do you truly love them because look at it like this to me a lot of people get caught up in infatuation um they have unhealthy attachments they have different motivations to why they decided this is the person that I want and that can make them feel like they're in love but to me true love flows both ways it's not a one-sided thing so when you can say I I'm not into them like that if we look deep into that situation I can almost guarantee what we'll find is infatuation attachment something else but when you can say no I feel it too I'm deeply in love with them I think that's your first key because without that nothing else matters because a lot of people are choosing Partners based off of what they love me so much so I assume it's safe here and this is a good choice to make but the safe choice is usually the wrong choice and a lot of these people select this individual thinking everything's going to be okay but because you're not really into them you can never be what they need and they were never truly what you needed which is why you never even got to that level with them so to choose them without first evaluating do you truly love them would not be wise yeah that's that's a great question and I think people struggle with that question too because I think we think of love as so many different things wrapped into one for example I could think I love someone because of how they treat me I could think I love someone because they have one quality that I really wish I had or I could love someone because I think that they're out of my league and they give me a bit of attention yeah and so what we think is love is so complex and so wide that we never stop to ask ourselves like what does love mean like what's the definition of love like how do I Define love so how do you define love and how do you encourage other people to create their definitions of Love well for me first off is always God is love and then when we take it from there love is about kindness compassion patience understanding a willingness to be selfless important to that individual but I think what's also important for people to understand is when we're trying to apply it to romantic relationships we have to understand that there's other ingredients that are necessary before we can move forward so you could love someone dearly but if they are not emotionally ready because maybe they haven't healed from their past maybe there's still some things that need to work out in their life then it wouldn't be time to move forward in a relationship with them and we have this bad habit of the minute we feel like there's love there we want to move forward exactly and as you mentioned we can get caught up sometimes in but we love them because of what they do for us but what are you prepared to do for them love is about giving all right so we have to ask ourselves okay do we know what their needs are are we willing to fulfill those needs because if not maybe this wasn't love maybe it just felt good in the moment maybe you got caught up in the hype and that's okay it happens to almost all of us if not all of us at some point in life but we have to just be real very clear with ourselves about what's really driving the intention right now but I think all those things I mentioned is what encompasses love of and that's like the foundation of it and then from there we have to look at some other things to see how we can move forward so many times like you you convince yourself something's love and what I find really interesting is that so many people fall in love too fast and no one wants to go for the slow patient understanding love which is what love requires you just said love is kind love is patient love is understanding those things take time I think those things take time to nurture and to to make sure that we're doing it correctly for each other so it's about learning each other's Love Languages and how we make it work in within that Dynamic I think also because so many people are not used to dealing with emotions at on that level being that vulnerable people mishandle it all right so it takes time for us to get to a place so we understand how to manage this and work through this however I think that I'm a huge believer in connection and I believe connection is like your spirit recognizing its match and it's very instant when you speak to couples who said they experience a connection they'll tell you first conversation first time meeting first date first week it was pretty fast so to me the the recognizing of something deeper being here can happen very quickly but how we now cultivate that and how we move forward is where we need to take our time and make sure we're not rushing and overlooking certain important issues that need to be discussed and addressed first to me it's the understanding of chemistry versus compatibility and the idea that there needs to be a spark there needs to be a connection that I feel with someone like you're saying on a deeper level but I find that I find that most people are not Adept and knowing whether the connection they feel with someone is deeper or physical yeah like I would say that it's easy to it you can often feel a spark with if you meet a lot of people you can feel a spot with a lot of people but that doesn't mean that they're the right person to build a relationship absolutely right yes so it's connection to me is a very rare occurrence right yes so I feel that people who've actually experienced it they can tell you maybe once in their life if you're lucky two times maybe all right but it's not this thing that happens with everybody whereas chemistry uh feeling of spark these things can happen with a lot of different people yeah so I do think there's there's this education that's needed to understand how we differentiate these things so that we don't confuse them because I see a lot of people take that chemistry and think oh this is it this is the one it's like but you had chemistry with the last five people why is this one the one and not them so I do think we have to be careful with that yeah I think so so we're on the same page there's three things there's connection on the deeper level there's chemistry which is like the spark on a more superficial level and then there's compatibility which is like what makes get lost and I can relate to that with my wife I definitely felt so I I'm one of those people who I kind of knew from the first few moments when I met my wife before she was my wife was like I was like yeah this is my person like I felt that way yeah for sure I felt that connection and there was chemistry there too but it had to be turned into compatibility in order to create a long lasting relationship we've been together for 10 years we're still learning building going through everything but that was a big part of it so that I can get behind is do you see it that way too or is there something different in so how do you see it believe it or not I used to make compatibility the least important but that was because I was looking at it the wrong way once I kind of looked at the definition again and compatibility is about two people coexisting in harmony yeah then I was like okay no you you have to have that I just I got caught up more so in like let's say a dating site says okay we're gonna decide who's compatible so I view compatible as like an on the paper it looks good it's supposed to match but you can have a lot of people who are supposed to be compatible and it doesn't work absolutely so I think that it's compatibility is that add-on once we have the connection and the chemistry now we have to create that Harmony which is the compatibility yes I agree with you and and it is interesting how that word compatibility is thrown around and you're so right that compatibility on paper doesn't mean compatibility in real life exactly and to me compatibility really has another word inside of it which is like adaptability and that deeper understanding of an individual where you know how much you're willing to adapt around certain parts of the relationship but we'll get to that I think a lot of people like you know and and that's where we got into this conversation around what is slow a lot of people are waiting to feel like is this person wasting my time are they the one and so they don't have a deeper connection maybe they had that spark of chemistry and now that's kind of subsided how do you know if someone's wasting your time how do you know if you're letting yourself be used or wasted in that way so to me again I think it always starts with self and you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you because just use an example let's say you're a woman and the only reason why you're holding on to this guy is because he's a nice guy you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you figure let me try to make it work you're wasting your time this is where you're setting yourself up for disaster every single time so if it's not born out of a true connection love a genuine desire you really like this individual of course there's always things we have to work through but is the foundation strong enough for us to say okay we can make something special here and I think once we are honest with ourselves that kind of helps answer the question because sometimes we get so caught up trying to animal lies the other individual that is like we get in our heads and now we're missing the mark on what's really important here and we can't always say for sure what's going on with them I will say that in general if this person isn't willing to talk about things they're wasting your time if they're not willing to address or correct things that have been talked about they're wasting your time if you guys aren't on the same page about what you want and where you want to go in life wasting time so there are some things I think we can just look at and say listen this is pointless here but a lot of times and I have to say this especially for women women's intuition is extremely powerful I'm a huge believer in it and I feel like women know very early this isn't it but they rationalize reasons to convince themselves to give this man a chance and this again is a waste of time because it just doesn't work I've seen people turn what should have been maybe a couple weeks of dating into years of being married to someone they were not happy with all because they did not listen to themselves from the beginning they knew what it was but they just could not accept it for what it was yeah and I love that point on intuition it's almost like when a relationship finally ends a lot of us think to ourselves I knew they weren't right yeah like I knew it I knew that they weren't the one but you just didn't listen to that part of yourself yes so so let's break it down for people let's help people out we started talking about three very important words connection which you defined chemistry which we've defined in compatibility which we've defined how do people know the difference between connection and chemistry when they meet someone because I find that the science shows that you're experiencing dopamine and cortisol at the same times you're experiencing the reward chemical and stress chemical at the same time which gives you that chemistry feeling which is the feeling of butterflies in your stomach or like do they like me are they into me what should I wear that kind of feeling but then you're talking about a deeper connection how do you hear the difference because I think a lot of us just get swept up in the feeling of I'm So Into that person they're so into me how do you know so I think one is are you even being yourself or can you be yourself with this individual if if you're presenting your representative then this is not a real connection this is them falling for that person that you're presenting but that's not real so to me you have you should be already being yourself but with that person you have a connection with it's a more natural flow we don't have to force it we just feel so much more comfortable around them I think in addition to that is when you when you find yourself all caught up in the moment and caught up in that chemistry again you have to ask yourself what am I really attaching myself to what about what do I really like about this individual what I find is that when it's really about chemistry we're still on the surface you don't really know about them yet you just know you guys had a good time maybe you had fun at this event you guys were able to talk about a lot of different things which is great which is gonna also be important if there is a connection however do you even know what college did they want do you know what kind of Life they want to live you know are you guys really on the same page I think connection is our paths align our purpose is align so for us to align we have to have a deeper understanding of where we're headed and can we head there together so so that's why I think though you may feel it or you may feel like you're feeling it you have to do your due diligence to dig deeper to find out okay is this just I got caught up on the surface or there is something real here yeah and I think once we ask enough questions because I think that's the other big problem we have this experience where we feel this chemistry we're so excited and now we're afraid to ask questions because we don't want to blow up the fantasy yes you know what I'm saying we're just like no no I want to keep believing this is great so let me not ask anything let me not run this person away let me not rock the boat but that's going to be what tells us if this is real or not yes I think you're I think you've hit on something there like we're so scared of losing someone that we're okay with not asking important questions and discovering important truths that actually define whether this relationship is going to last absolutely and that is ultimately going back to your point earlier that is ultimately you not being yourself right you're losing yourself scared that you're going to lose the other person so you're okay with not being yourself do you think it's ever okay this is a funny question I think but I have to ask you because I think it's a healthy discussion do you think it's ever okay to present different sides of yourself in order to attract someone or do you think that you're ultimately setting yourself up for failure in a relationship almost like I think a lot of people they may not become someone completely different but I think a lot of people are like oh I'm gonna show my smart side because it will attract this person or I'm gonna show my this side because they're like that are you saying any of that kind of molding is unhealthy or do you think there's room for that I think anything that is not sustainable is unhealthy so look at it as if I'm a man and I'm meeting this woman I want to impress her so I'm like okay I'm gonna try to spend all my money take a nice five-star restaurant all these things but deep inside I prefer a more simple lifestyle you know I don't like all that extra stuff okay that's horrible that's a sale for disaster that's unhealthy because you can't sustain what you're presenting to that individual that's gonna draw them in so whatever it is another like common example is you'll have women who love to communicate they want to be able to talk to you every single day but because they're afraid of coming off a certain kind of way they'll hold back on their communication so now they'll make it seem like they're okay with talking every now and then we don't always have to text and then this guy falls for that he falls for this low standard I won't call low standard but not having such a high expectation of him when it comes to communication then he finally gets with the woman her true self is going to come out at some point no one can suppress their true self forever it comes out and now it's like what is this I did not sign up for this now we're fighting now we're stressed because you want him to call you more he was used to you not being worried about it so much that's why it's going to always not work out so it's extremely unhealthy unless we're presenting a side of us that is truly us and we can sustain it you've hit on something again that that at the beginning of relationships we often display unrealistic standards and we set those yes and then when things shift and now you're back in reality again the other person's like but wait a minute I thought you were really into me and I even went through that with my wife when we first met I was able to spend pretty much every day with her because I didn't have a job and so I was looking for work I was applying I would go see her at her College every day and I would spend the day with her and I'd be in the library applying for jobs while she was studying yeah and I could see it every day and I think I saw every day potentially for like six months maybe every single day five days a week at least and then when I got a job that wasn't the case anymore because I was at work now and I'd set this unrealistic expectation that we could see each other all the time and even in the beginning I would see her all the time because I'd spend time with her family but we wouldn't spend time with my family because I hadn't told my family yet and so now that my family knew we were trying to split the time and all of a sudden it was like wait a minute we used to spend time at my house and so even in little things like that it took a bit of adapting because I'd set a false standard in our relationship and then thankfully my wife was adapting and she understood and she got it and it was fine but I think for so many people you set unrealistic expectations in who you are yes and that's hard to come back from absolutely yeah and that's why it's so important for us to know who we are so that we can present the real from the jump you know because again A lot of times people you know this idea that we're always changing yes I do think we're always evolving but some of the big shifts that you see are is not because that's just the way life is it's because you did take the time to figure yourself out first and then you got with this person and now you want them to adjust now thank God for you she was able to adjust but there's a lot of people that they can't handle that yeah and now everything falls apart from there so that's why yeah we have to be very careful with what we're presenting from the beginning yeah it's I I agree with you on that that we think people change but actually they just start to understand themselves exactly they went from being completely unconscious about who they were you met an unconscious version of a person yeah and now you think they're changing but they just became conscious of who they are absolutely and but the thing is Stefan as you know like Society doesn't encourage that time of getting to know yourself right when you're young you're not trained in how to think about who you want to be you're trained in thinking about what you want to I do it's about your job it's about your career you're not thinking about who you are as a human being or as a person so how do we in this Society where understanding who you are is not clear it's not encouraged where where does one start or where have you kind of found great insights in trying to discover who we are I would love to see more parents encouraging their children to explore how they're feeling about who they are like what I have found is a lot of people who let's say I I had one client where she wanted to be an actress when she was a little kid uh but parents kind of push in a different direction now she's like a social worker but her desire is still to be an actress like the things that they they wanted to do they they want to do as an adult now you can find back in their childhood in a lot of cases so I feel like too many people have stifled their children's growth in certain areas with limited ideas of well this can't make money or this wouldn't be a good look for the family or whatever the case may be it's like no let them walk in it and see for themselves if that's really where they belong outside of that for me I think the big thing is getting in tune spiritually I'm just a huge believer in that I feel like me finding myself was when I went into what I call my Wilderness period I kind of just shut everything off that I was doing because I used to be all over having fun partying all these different things things and then God kind of slapped me upside my head and I had to like really pull away from everything and go deeper from within and it felt like a process of breaking me down to build me right back up and that's when I start to see things clearer because what I realized is the world is filled with distractions and it's the distractions why we can't see ourselves for who we really are if we simply shut off the distractions long enough you will learn a lot so even if someone just took a year off don't worry you know limit the TV you're watching limit the music you're listening to limit all the internet stuff just really go deeper within yourself spend more time alone spend more time you know thinking and processing you will learn a lot because again a lot of it is it isn't a problem of we don't know ourselves we are not aware and we're not willing to accept and once we allow ourselves to do those two things become aware and then accept it we become free yeah I I mean I agree with you I think that I've always been a big proponent of solitude to understand who you are because as soon as you have another person you now have another person's opinions you have to filter yes as soon as you have another person in front of you you have another person's judgments to filter and so now you can't even say what you truly think about something because you're constantly thinking what does that person think about me and my beliefs and so understanding your beliefs in solitude allows you to be really clear about what your values and beliefs are and and that's what it's there for I think when people get into if we switch to compatibility again the idea we talked about the difference between connection and chemistry but compatibility is really interesting because a lot of people believe that relationships should be hard and they require hard work and a lot of people believe relationships should be easy and everything should just flow where have you kind of discovered your lens on that Spectrum so okay there's a there's a couple ways to look at it I think that most relationships and I'll even be more specific most relations that involve connection and true love are typically hard not because relationships have to be hard but because most people have been hurt by something in their life are holding on to past traumas haven't resolved it once they meet this individual that they feel so strongly about it is scary this is where things get difficult it's the difficultness in how do I handle this how do I manage this you'll have people feel like they're losing themselves but they're not losing themselves their true self is coming out and it's it's the self that's been hiding behind that wall they've been using for quote-unquote protection but I always say the same module to protect you the same as blocking your blessings so now they're being pulled from behind it it's it's makes them feel some kind of way and again people start to mishandle things you also have situations where people are getting bad advice like I'm gonna give one example um there's this uh book called The Game by Neil Strauss I don't know if you ever read that book yeah it was great Neil you know you you answer that world to pick up artistry we learned it and he was great with the women but then once he found that woman that he fell in love with all that stuff doesn't work anymore so you have a lot of men being taught how to handle women in general but they don't understand that's not how you handle the woman you truly love and so now again you have individuals who though they are truly in love with this person they constantly mishandle it with bad Guidance with fear and all these things this is what makes it hard and and I even think that a lot of times the people who are supposed to be together sometimes will have the hardest time getting together but I believe that once we're able to conquer that part of it and actually come together it's not hard yes it takes work I believe we have to be conscious and mindful of how we treat our partners how we show up being willing to listen but I think it's so much easier to do those things with someone you have a connection with and you're truly in love with it's gonna always feel ten times harder when you're in the wrong relationship and I would argue the vast majority of people are in the wrong relationship that's why they're seeing it be so difficult and when you see this whole it's easy typically it's easy because you have two people who are not digging deeper they're they're trying to write out that chemistry we talked about earlier for as long as possible all right so yeah it seems like it's great it's easy no issues but it doesn't really work like that because they're just not facing the reality of the situation so I think we we have to understand that there is going to be some bumps in the road because of all the things that people have been through but once we're able to come together and we know this is our partner this is who we want to share our life with it can get so much better yeah and do you do you think that people have just been given generally the wrong education on how to deal with another person in their life 100 yeah because unfortunately a lot of individuals are giving advice from a bit or hurt place there and and they're trying to disguise it as I'm just looking out for you no you you have inhaled and you cannot properly guide them in a positive and loving Manner and I think that a lot of people you know I always say it's funny how we'll spend a lot of time getting educated for the for the sake of our careers and business but we don't do the same for relationships and yet relationships arguably are even more important than that career business and even if it's not a romantic relationship just relationships in general your ability to coexist with others connect with others is extremely important if you want that business to succeed you have to learn how to establish business relationships there's no way around it so we have to learn how to talk to people listen to people you know what I'm saying and just make make things work when we come together with other individuals so I definitely think that we're just lacking in a lot of education and again too many because there's so many voices on the internet now there's just so much bad advice being given and and the individuals giving it they may be giving like let's say 80 of the advice is accurate but it's that 20 that's completely off that can derail everything and that's the stuff that people are gravitating to and this is causing a lot of problems can you give us some example of some of the like not specific people or anything like that I just mean like could you give example of bad advice and what about it is bad or unhealthy for people to try and put into practice okay so one thing I heard recently was an individual told uh said some of the best advice you can give to men is to not fall in love you know basically just find a woman you want to be with and kind of keep it there the reason why I view that as horrible advice is because you sit down with any man who's lived enough life they will all be able to say there's been at least one time they fail deeply for a woman all right the problem isn't falling deep before a woman the problem is we don't know how to handle it once we get there the problem is because we're not accustomed to handling and processing our emotions a certain kind of way and being this vulnerable we don't understand what's going to be required of us in that moment we also kind of lose sight of because I'm a big believer in masculine and feminine energy and I believe that if she was attracted to you because of that masculine energy that you give off and now you become this emotional wreck because you don't know how to handle all these feelings you have for her well you start to become less attractive to her and it's not that it's not fixable it's fixable but again a lack of understanding and awareness derails the situation so rather than telling men don't fall in love because it's inevitable let's teach them how we walk in love how we make what I call Loving in your masculine how you maintain that energy and still be able to pour into that woman in a way that allows relationship to flourish yeah and how does that work when I think obviously a lot of people in that example that you're giving if if the person is attracted to someone because of their masculine energy but at the same time they want them to be empathetic and compassionate and kind which are generally seen as more feminine energy how does that person balance the two or is that is that not how you're explaining is that no it's about balance so we have to understand we all have masculine and feminine of course within us I'm a Believer in one must be your dominant energy the other is the one you tap into when necessary so as a man you can walk in your masculine and in those moments tap into those things but you can't just stay there all the time all right you can't just become this needy emotional God that's not going to work in the vast majority of cases and so what happens is there's this messaging that's being thrown out there that women don't like good guys I don't believe that's what it is I believe that women become less attracted when you don't know how to exude and walk in your masculine energy it's and and we're hiding behind the label of good guy you can be a good guy and still exude masculine energy and that's the thing and we also think that oh they like bad boys no if you look deeper it's really the masculine energy that that quote-unquote bad boy exudes but what they desire is a mixture of both the same way that we would want a mixture of both we would want a loving sweet woman family woman whatever or and if you're a guy who wants a mask and woman cool but you don't want her to be just that you know you want her to have the ability to tap into that other side when necessary I think we all desire that balance in our partner and I think it's healthy and if we just learn how to maintain it and how to nurture it we would see greater success in relationships yeah what are some of the skills with with mastering that energy that you think we're missing out on and balancing that energy and knowing when to be which and because the reason why it's hard is I think we live in a binary world right like you feel like you have to choose like you're either a bad boy or you're a good girl you are a doer or you're a thinker you're uh winner or you're a loser right like we think like that and some people go okay you need to be masculine or I can be feminine and I I definitely relate to what you were saying like I believe that there is a lot about me that is massively masculine in energy using that language and terminology my drive my ambition how I work my strategic mind and at the same time I consider myself to have a lot of great feminine energy and qualities where it comes to like empowering others and nurturing and the ability to hold deep compassionate space and be empathetic which are all powerful qualities for for everyone right Beyond gender they're powerful qualities and I appreciate and it's taken a long time to know when to be which and it's still and I still make mistakes right there's still sometimes like I should have been more assertive I should have been more affectionate so we live in a world that finds it hard to hold two opposing ideas at the same time yeah we don't know how to do that in any sphere of life let alone within ourselves so what are some of the skills that we can learn in order to nurture both those energies in a healthy way inside of ourselves so I think one it's going to require a lot of if you're already in a relationship it's going to boil down to a lot of transparency and communication you know her if you're that man trying to understand that woman and when you can walk in those two energies her being willing to be honest and open about you know what this was too much over here or I needed some of this over here and in time you're going to become more aware and understanding it's going to be like second nature to you you won't have to overthink it and I think part of it is not overthinking it it's kind of like being ourselves but understanding that we have to learn when this is doing too much and vice versa I also think that in reality for a lot of men especially uh when we're talking about relationships and kind of losing that masculine energy the the underlying issue is fear all right when we become so afraid of losing this woman we lose ourselves and so a lot of men now fall into this very feminine needy space because they're just afraid we have to learn that listen like to me I feel if your partner thinks you're never gonna walk away from them no matter what they do you've lost that's that's a horrible place to be in we have to get to a place where we both understand that as long as we show up the way that we need to show up for each other we have each other's back we will be here but neither of us will tolerate an unhealthy relationship and someone who blatantly does not want to work on making this better I would want my the woman I'm with to feel that way and I need to feel that way once we understand that and you have the confidence of I can walk away if I have to that shifts your energy right there in itself and now you don't find yourself falling into that place where again you start to look a lot more unattractive or for some men they become yes men in their relationships thinking that makes her happy that's turning her off she doesn't want you to be her yes man she wants you to stand up for yourself sometimes give your opinion give your perspective she wants to be able to you know if anything be able to have discussions with you about these things not just you say whatever you want whatever you want whatever you want over time it becomes a problem so I think that once we conquer that fear once we create a space where we can talk about these moments and not feel some kind of way I think sometimes men are not they struggle with taking the criticism from their partner men and women we we all do when we feel when we have actual feelings for someone you know we don't care about you it's not as big of a deal but we're emotionally invested we're more sensitive to it but we have to understand that these criticisms are for the sake of making things better and strengthening this relationship so once we can get to that place it's going to be so much easier to grow in it and then I think it's just a matter of understanding that it's this balance isn't just for your relationship so look at it like from a sports perspective if I'm on a basketball team there may be moments where I need to take the lead and recognize all right everyone else is down someone needs to step up this is my moment and then there's other moments where I realize okay let's say we already have a team captain let me show them that I can follow serve do what needs to be done so that the team can win it's just becoming aware of what the moment requires you know and again I think the more in tune we get the more in tune we get with ourselves and the more in tune we get with our partner the easier it becomes to find that balance that's the challenge right the challenge is just how much patience we have with ourselves and others to realize that you walked into an imbalance unbalanced situation and now it's like how much patience how much time are we going to give it to get to that because the challenge is I think we walk into a situation thinking it's perfect whereas we should be walking into a relationship knowing it's imperfect absolutely and we're going to learn and figure it out together and I think that's what sets us up for failure is because we walk into it going it's perfect and deep down we know it isn't but somehow we gloss over it whereas I find when I know we're gonna fight when I know we're gonna argue and I know there's going to be disagreements that sets me up to develop the skills I need in order to navigate those things yes but if I assume like oh we're never gonna fight and I always get that right we always meet someone who goes to I mean a friend who goes to me Jay we never fight I'm like how long have you been together because I don't I don't know anyone who never fights I get that no one has to get to like yeah the heights of fights yeah I did that I did that it doesn't have to be a heated fight but I don't know anyone who doesn't disagree there you go all right right I think that's important for people to understand yeah there's a difference yes you have some individuals out there that'll say arguing is normal it's healthy and to me it's like listen if we're talking about arguing where we're now Crossing disrespectful lines negative lines you know the way that we the tone we take with each other all these things that's not healthy yes it may happen you should be prepared for that but it does let's not normalize it just gonna keep doing this and it's it is what it is but you're right to to be with each other long enough and never have a disagreement that's extremely rare okay extremely rare and I do think that again as you mentioned we have to be ready for those moments we have to understand and going back to how we find that balance especially as men and even for women it's recognizing so for example if my partner is in a very heated moment let's say she's in her masculine right now all right she's getting rough well meeting her with more masculine is probably going to only make things worse yeah this is the time for me to be compassionate go to her hold her calm her down bring her peace in that moment you see because it we need to balance each other out same thing on the flip side if I'm all heated and I'm I'm extra passionate and then my woman now comes with that same energy that's it now where button has this is her moment to say no let me now be the one to soften the moment up bring that Sweetness in there and everybody calms down so it's learning how to feed off of each other and recognize okay they're over here let me bring it back over here and now we can work from that point and we're both good the problem is that we all see compassion and sweetness and kindness in those moments as a weakness we don't want to be that person because we see that as losing we see that as giving in we see that as us losing our power and strength in a relationship if we become the comforter or if we become the carer right like that's that's a perception that is the perception and we have to change that that is the power position so who is more powerful the person that lets the energy dictate them how they're going to react or the person that brings the energy and dictates how they're going to make this situation play out so if I'm coming in to calm it down and being all sweet because I'm trying to bring peace here I'm in the power position I'm not losing anything I'm gonna gain more peace and happiness and Harmony if I succeed in what I'm trying to do so we have to get out of that mindset of this makes us weaker and that is the big key of it that's a big problem that for a lot of women who struggle with their feminine energy that's a big issue where they feel that being feminine is weakness it's what got them taken advantage of and got them hurt but I always say it's not the feminine energy that's the problem it's who you give it to do they respect it did they honor it you know it's the same thing as a man does she respect your masculine if she doesn't then that might just be a sign you're with the wrong person but don't stop being that guy because the woman who's best for you is going to need that in those moments that that's exactly what it is is that when people have been their best selves for the wrong person that person brings out the worst in them yes right like when someone's been their best loving kindness self but someone took advantage of it that person now thinks next time I've got to be aggressive I've got to be you know powerful I've got to be strong in this way and I feel like that's kind of what most people are dealing with we know that is that you're just dealing with a wounded version of someone yes not a healed version of someone but I think people struggle to trust again and again especially when they see the same patterns in the person they're weird and I guess the question is why do we keep making the same mistakes because I feel like a lot of us keep dating the same people yeah and there's a part of us that also just keeps closing off or being more wounded it's almost like if you cut yourself you now walk around with your hand over that you don't want to get cut again and then if you lead it off and it gets cut even deeper now you're even more conscious of that and so I find that people are doing that where they're closing their heart more and more because it's been so misused and abused and I understand that I understand people don't want to be abused and misused but I guess the question is how do people find people that they know respect them so that they can be their best version or be a better version of themselves so you know you can't drive out Darkness with more Darkness you can't expose someone who's gonna hurt you by being someone who's closed off and holding back yourself we have it's kind of what we were just talking about we have to look at being vulnerable loving and open as not just well I'm setting myself to be hurt no it's how you expose people faster if I come with that energy and you cannot respect it match it then I know you don't belong here but if I hold back I give you a free pass to hold back so now we have two individuals who are hiding behind their walls because it's comfortable there but you can't really see what's what do we really have in front of us those walls are blinding you and you can't properly evaluate the situation so one we we got to get to a place of healing from our past so that we're not just walking around with the hand over the cut no you you gotta let the cup breathe you gotta let it heal all right holding on put your hand on there is delaying the process and like you said all that's gonna happen is when you finally take your hand off but you're taking it off with the wrong person and you haven't learned see what I want people to realize is your actions weren't the problem meaning you being loving sweet kind compassionate wasn't the problem it was the person separate those two things that you don't stop doing the good things now granted are there levels to this to where we have to learn again if I'm thinking about a man if you got so deeply emotional to where you kind of lost your your masculine energy and you became very needy okay you can say all right I need to continue to be loving but I know I have to learn how to draw a line I have to learn how not to cross that moment and again you only crossed it because you were unhealthy to begin with you only cross it because you were afraid to begin with once you get to that place where you're healthy and confident you won't find yourself Crossing that line anymore yeah you won't tolerate certain things anymore so we have to heal we have to be confident and we have to let our light shine so that we can expose what's in front of us easier that's a brilliant answer I I love the differentiation between how sharing your light is not the problem the person's the problem because we yeah we start to doubt whether being a good person a loving person is actually what wins in the world yeah and the truth is that it does win but it has to win with someone who can receive it and absolutely hold that space with you and share that space with you and I find that a lot of people keep giving that energy to the wrong person because we feel we can make them better right like there's this feeling of like I can change this person I can make them better I can heal them there's some of us want to fix people yeah and that means we assume the person we're with is broken and I think this is such a subconscious thing like if you're always critiquing if you're always picking at stuff with your partner chances are you don't think they're great like just now you think there's some issues with them when you think that you can fix them and they're broken tell us about that angle where now we're almost we've talked about being the loving and kind person but sometimes we're being the person that thinks we're loving and kind because we want to improve someone but that person doesn't want to improve one big problem is that what's really driving people to pick that individual is that by being the one that can upgrade you improve you I have more value here by having more value I have a false sense of security you have to appreciate me you're less likely to walk away you're less likely to cheat because you're lucky to have me I feel like I'm the prize here but those situations never really work because again you're choosing someone that is not capable of pouring into you the way you need you're basing this off of what you could do for them and that's not sustainable and you're choosing them because again you have more emotional control here what happens to so many people especially women it's something that I call the unhealthy love cycle of women where women in their first love experience outside of any childhood trauma may have experienced they're their most loving they're just out there they go all the way in but that typically happens at a younger age at an age where men are not mature enough to handle those kind of emotions that level of commitment so on and so forth so she gets hurt after she gets hurt her moment is saying to herself I will never let this happen to me again so now the woman starts to consciously or subconsciously choose men who are I don't want to say lower than hurt but essentially a man who does not take her there he's good enough to be with but I'm not that vulnerable with him he can't hurt me like that first love hurt me and so that Dynamic usually leads to picking that person I can fix I can make better who will appreciate and respect me but again it doesn't work out and many times you'll see these same situations the guy will move on to cheat on her not because and I have to say this because some women think yeah he's just being a man no not because he's a man but because you chose a man that you could never be the woman that he needed and he could never be the man that you needed once he kind of either gets what he needs from you to build himself up or the Smoke Clears from him being infatuated with you he starts to realize I'm not getting everything that I desire and now you building him up has brought him more attention from other women so now the the difference between what you're not giving him and what someone else is willing to give him becomes way clearer now the Temptation gets way stronger and he ends up doing something or she ends up cheating as well because he's safe but he doesn't fulfill her he doesn't satisfy her he he doesn't excite her in any kind of way and that's why I always said earlier like the safe choice is almost always the wrong choice but that is a function of people trying to choose these fix or uppers because they think it's going to give them some leverage there it's leverage that's it yeah it's leverage yeah how do you know when it's time to go like how do you know when it's like I feel like this is a common question where it's like how do you know when it's just I've tried everything we've tried together tried our best maybe we went to therapy maybe we got a coach or maybe you know maybe we didn't do those things how do I just know that I feel like I need to go but I'm scared of being alone yeah I'm I'm scared of dealing with the reality that I put in a lot of energy and I feel like you said this earlier but a lot of people stay in something for a lot longer than they should because they'd rather not be alone yes they'd rather not face reality they'd rather not lose two years of their life they'd rather lose two more thinking that this this should stay like how do you know when it's time to go let me first say this yes I think I think Society needs to change their thinking as far as Letting Go doesn't always mean it can't work out later it's just that it cannot work out under these circumstances all right because some people say well I feel like they're the one okay maybe they are but maybe the time is not right and it's letting go that will allow you both to do what needs to be done in your own personal lives that would allow you to come back together and have something way more amazing so that's number one thing to consider but outside of that it's when one if that person is unwilling to put in the work necessary it's time to go there's like so many times I'll I'll have a video go up about communication and someone will comment saying I've tried talking to him and he doesn't want to talk to me and in my head I'm like why are you still with them if he refuses to talk to you you've already tried there's nothing else to do but people will let it Linger on and continue why they can why they consistently complain or unhappy about this specific issue it's not gonna magically get better they're not gonna just change it just because all of a sudden they see oh it needs to change no if they're fighting it now they have no reason to change it and what people have to understand you know especially with this whole trying to fix people up healing and facing your traumas is one of the hardest things for people to do so if they already have you in their life they're essentially getting the incentive or the benefit of relationship without having to do the deeper work it's almost like if I'm at a job and the job says you need to have a master's degree to work here but we're going to hire you anyway and give you time to get that master's degree if getting that degree is super hard to you you're gonna drag that out as long as possible yeah you may never get the degree until they fire you when they fire you and you realize oh my gosh if I don't do this I'll never get this person back I'll never get this opportunity back now they might go and get it because it's very tough to walk down the path of the healing process so if they're not willing to work on it you guys have already discussed it and I think that's a big thing because there's a lot of relationships that end and the couples don't even know what the real issue was so the communication they'll say well we talked about no you guys argued you guys lashed out there wasn't a clear communication as to what the problem was what is expected how do we go about this if you've done that and I believe one of the most effective ways to do that is through a letter because I feel like verbal communication of deep issues and concerns they typically don't go well you know people get distracted they forget what they want to say the other person gets defensive they're not they're listening to rebuttal not to understand but when there's a letter involved it gives you time to get everything out you can you can evaluate your tone leave no stone unturned and now they have an opportunity to process it on their time to really take it in and then you guys can come together and discuss the letter and now it's so much easier to stay on point and get everything covered if we've done that and they're still unwilling or there's still no progress It's Time to Go yeah that's great that's great advice and I for me that's the biggest one it's like you can't make something last if only one person's working on it you can't keep hoping and waiting and wishing and and like you said that ending doesn't mean forever and often I found that two people need to grow individually to be able to grow collectively and we're forcing growing together so hard but we need space to grow and if you can't grow together chances are you need to grow apart in order to see whether you grow together again or grow for someone else and all of those options are okay but we put so much pressure on people to grow together that they grow apart yeah and actually if they chose to grow apart and grow separately they could come back together if they learn the lessons and I think that's a mistake too though sometimes people think I'm gonna go learn this lesson for this person I meet a lot of people they're like okay they broke up with me because I wasn't XYZ now I'm gonna go become XYZ to win them back yeah and I always find I'm just like well no you should go become XYZ if you think you were missing XYZ but not to win them back because you don't know what they're gonna do what's your take on people trying to win people back so I 100 agree with you like if we're trying to learn or grow it needs to be for the benefit of who we are and just whoever we deal with so was almost like if I was a bad Communicator in this relationship I shouldn't learn to better communicate for that person I need to better communicate for whoever I'm going to be with if you can't see it in that light then maybe you're looking at the wrong thing my thing is this I think it all depends on what the details of the situation was what led to the breakup what were you overlooking what was missing are these fixable issues because a lot of people are trying to win back someone where the issues are not resolved so it's like what's the point of going back we're just going to go in the same cycle all over again they're letting this idea of I miss them I don't want to be without them blind them from the fact that you two did not get along well or you two don't want the same things or YouTube just whatever it is maybe there's a lack of sexual satisfaction I don't know why I feel the need to mention that but it happens a lot of times you have to stay focused on what led to the end and can this be corrected if it can cool but as you mentioned listen correcting it does not guarantee you they're coming back and even if they will come back you don't know when they may need so you may have figured yourself out in six months they might need a year and I would argue if you guys are truly meant for each other and at the end of the year you need a year too you're just overlooking some things and you're rushing the process because you want to get back to them yeah it's I've never found a situation where it was truly only one person who had problems and the other person was squeaky clean no no you thought you were but you got some stuff too you needed to correct of course so I think we have to be honest with ourselves and just keep striving to be better and rather than focus on winning them back just become the best you because if you do and there's a true connection there the opportunity will present itself again and you too will be able to make something of it and the struggle is that when people finally make that decision to break up or let go the study showed that the parts of your brain that are activated in a breakup are the same as detoxing from cocaine right like you're literally trying to detox so you can have a craving yeah for someone that's bad for you yeah or also it says that the areas of the brain that are activated in a breakup are the areas that are the same with physical pain so if someone like punching the stomach the reason why we say like my heart feels broken is because it literally feels like something's broken yeah so when you're going through a breakup when you're feeling the craving to be with that person again studies show that eight over eighty percent of people are looking at what their exes are doing on social media right probably through a Finster account or whatever but you have to you have to know what are some of the healthiest tips that you've given to people and the people that you've worked with that have genuinely helped people move through a breaker the first thing is to ask yourself again why was I even there why am I holding on to this individual again I think sometimes we get so blinded by just the experience or our desire to have this person for whatever reason that we Overlook what was really missing or why this could not work anyway what you'll also find is and I'm sure there's probably a study on it where if you if they broke up with you you ever see a situation it happens on TV a lot where the person could be like okay I'm gonna break up with my partner they're planning on it they've been practicing in their head right it took them a couple weeks to muster up the strength they're about to do it and then the partner breaks up with them yeah now it's oh my gosh I gotta get them back yeah so it's like you just forgot this whole time that was your plan yeah it just gave you the past to do it but now because we don't like to be the one being let go of now we're fighting hard to get it back yeah so we have to really not fall into these little traps that happen to us as human beings our brains just playing tricks on us or something where we confuse these emotions for oh my gosh I must really love them or even like you said you go into that detox and because you miss I always tell people no matter how bad the relationship was there's always good moments so if you're trying to break free you can't just let your brain focus on the good moments you have to remind yourself why this doesn't work but if you keep focusing on the good you start to make yourself think oh because I missed this good moment I must miss them and there's this quote that says sometimes you're not missing the person you're missing the feeling so you've got to be able to differentiate those two things so getting back to how we get over these breakups is recognizing why were we really there to begin with you know could this actually work the next thing is you know I'm a huge believer that a lot of times a breakup is a blessing in disguise even if there is a chance that you two can work together or this is the one for you you may have needed this time to re-evaluate and get things in order something is obviously wrong even if you it may be something as deep as because I've seen situations where everything was going amazingly well on the surface and the person broke up with them let's say the woman lets go of the man so to the man that's really confusing but what it was is that that woman she had not healed from her past relationships and this relationship being so good was scaring her and what happens is the the better you are the scarier it becomes for her she's looking for something to be wrong she has to validate her fear somehow wow when she can't find it she'll either sabotage the relationship or she'll run from it So to that man it may seem like this is so unfair which yeah it sucks but if this woman didn't break up with you now you were inevitably gonna face this same ending but at a worse time yeah all right this is still best that is happening now at least if she can go do what she needs to do there's a chance for this to come back around later but it's hard for us to see it in the moment so I think just really we also have to focus on our healing whenever a breakup happens the mistake we make is that we think it's about healing from the breakup no it's healing from everything you've been through you've probably been sleeping under the rug your childhood trauma for years maybe the last two three relationships whatever it is so and and not healing from those things is contributing to your struggle to get past this breakup and contributing to why you even chose this person to begin with I'm a huge believer that if you haven't healed you are 90 likely to choose the wrong person yeah it's just too difficult to pick that person that you truly love and can truly love you and accept that level of vulnerability when you have still not resolved your past traumas and past hurts yeah so to me that's the next big thing is just focus on your healing process because in that process you will also be able to see more clearly if this is really for you or not like walking around unhealed is like walking around with broken glasses you you can't see straight no matter how hard you try but healing will clear up your vision really really fast and now it'd be like oh wait a minute I didn't belong there yeah you know thank God the broke breakup happened you know now I'm in a better place I move forward so to me I think and I would say in addition to those things is just have an accountability partner whether that's friend coach therapist someone that can help keep you in check help remind you what you need to do someone that you know you have to talk to and update what's going on so you feel like okay I don't want to come back so I'm saying I'm doing the same thing over and over again it doesn't guarantee success but it helps it helps move the needle some so I would highly encourage that that one mindset you spoke about that that changes everything and it hit me today I was just thinking if we were just able in a moment to recognize that something painful now was going to be good for us in five years time that would change so many things in our life yes but we're so poor at dealing with current pain yeah even if it means future joy that we just can't accept that I have to go through this like in everything right like knowing that someone breaking up with you just saved you 10 years of a wasted life is so much more than knowing you're gonna have to go through a few months of pain and 10 months of pain maybe it's a bit longer maybe it's two three years but we just have to get our head around that that sometimes the best things that happen to you are protecting more of your life than the pain that they're causing you need the Peace of knowing I did what I needed to do that's it yeah because anytime you feel like well maybe I could have done this but I could have done that leaves the door open for doubt do it well exactly so it's like and that's why I'm such a big believer in you know there's people who say well once they're done they're done they'll just move on and I'm like no no Express Yourself get everything off your chest because you don't need anything to linger and you questioning well what if I did this different no make sure speak your full piece and now you can say all right I did what I had to do it is what it is I move forward and I mean it makes it easier it may not make it a hundred percent you know not an issue whatsoever but it's gonna be easier and also also for me that's why like my relationship with God is so important because that's where I find my peace in dealing with a situation that doesn't work out the way I want to I always tell myself okay if this isn't working out God has something better for me you know if this is happening right now there's a purpose because I know if I followed his guidance throughout this process there's no need for me to question why is this the current outcome there's a reason for this and I've been through these things enough times to see as you mentioned the reward is going to come it may come next week it may come years from now it will come and I'll be able to see how it all connected yeah Stefan it's been incredible talking to you man this has been such a great back-to-back flowing conversation uh we end every on purpose episode with the final five which is like a rapid fire which means every question has to be answered with one word to one sentence maximum okay so here are your final five the first question is what's the best relationship advice you've ever received or heard or given it is to love fully lovefully and be yourself because as I said earlier that's how you will expose quicker who is for you and who isn't for you second question what is the worst relationship advice you've ever heard or received get under someone to get over someone [Laughter] uh question number three uh how would you defin	we started talking about three very important words connection which you defined chemistry which we've defined in compatibility which we've defined how do people know the difference between connection and chemistry when they meet someone because I find that the science shows that you're experiencing dopamine and cortisol at the same times you're experiencing the reward chemical and stress chemical at the same time which gives you that chemistry feeling which is the feeling of butterflies in your stomach or like do they like me are they into me what should I wear that kind of feeling but then you're talking about a deeper connection how do you hear the difference because I think a lot of us just get swept up in the feeling of I'm So Into that person they're so into me how do you know so I think one is are you even being yourself or can you be yourself with this individual if if you're presenting your representative then this is not a real connection this is them falling for that person that you're presenting but that's not real so to me you have you should be already being yourself but with that person you have a connection with it's a more natural flow we don't have to force it we just feel so much more comfortable around them I think in addition to that is when you when you find yourself all caught up in the moment and caught up in that chemistry again	8	6	4	we started talking about three very important words connection which you defined chemistry which we've defined in compatibility which we've defined how do people know the difference between connection and chemistry when they meet someone because I find that the science shows that you're experiencing dopamine and cortisol at the same times you're experiencing the reward chemical and stress chemical at the same time which gives you that chemistry feeling which is the feeling of butterflies in your stomach or like do they like me are they into me what should I wear that kind of feeling but then you're talking about a deeper connection how do you hear the difference because I think a lot of us just get swept up in the feeling of I'm So Into that person they're so into me how do you know so I think one is are you even being yourself or can you be yourself with this individual if if you're presenting your representative then this is not a real connection this is them falling for that person that you're presenting but that's not real	I think in addition to that is when you when you find yourself all caught up in the moment and caught up in that chemistry again	4,5,7	6,8,5	4	5	7	6	8	5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPQBcb9wf8Q	4,056	mPQBcb9wf8Q	2023-03-27 00:00:00	you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you're wasting your time the best-selling author and host the number one Health and Wellness podcast on purpose with Jay Shetty what are the signs that someone deeply loves you because I feel like we live in this world where we're always wondering do they love me do they like me do they really like me are they really into me how do you know when you deeply love someone and when someone deeply loves you how do you even know so I'm gonna start with an answer that people probably won't expect to me the first key is do you truly love them because look at it like this to me a lot of people get caught up in infatuation um they have unhealthy attachments they have different motivations to why they decided this is the person that I want and that can make them feel like they're in love but to me true love flows both ways it's not a one-sided thing so when you can say I I'm not into them like that if we look deep into that situation I can almost guarantee what we'll find is infatuation attachment something else but when you can say no I feel it too I'm deeply in love with them I think that's your first key because without that nothing else matters because a lot of people are choosing Partners based off of what they love me so much so I assume it's safe here and this is a good choice to make but the safe choice is usually the wrong choice and a lot of these people select this individual thinking everything's going to be okay but because you're not really into them you can never be what they need and they were never truly what you needed which is why you never even got to that level with them so to choose them without first evaluating do you truly love them would not be wise yeah that's that's a great question and I think people struggle with that question too because I think we think of love as so many different things wrapped into one for example I could think I love someone because of how they treat me I could think I love someone because they have one quality that I really wish I had or I could love someone because I think that they're out of my league and they give me a bit of attention yeah and so what we think is love is so complex and so wide that we never stop to ask ourselves like what does love mean like what's the definition of love like how do I Define love so how do you define love and how do you encourage other people to create their definitions of Love well for me first off is always God is love and then when we take it from there love is about kindness compassion patience understanding a willingness to be selfless important to that individual but I think what's also important for people to understand is when we're trying to apply it to romantic relationships we have to understand that there's other ingredients that are necessary before we can move forward so you could love someone dearly but if they are not emotionally ready because maybe they haven't healed from their past maybe there's still some things that need to work out in their life then it wouldn't be time to move forward in a relationship with them and we have this bad habit of the minute we feel like there's love there we want to move forward exactly and as you mentioned we can get caught up sometimes in but we love them because of what they do for us but what are you prepared to do for them love is about giving all right so we have to ask ourselves okay do we know what their needs are are we willing to fulfill those needs because if not maybe this wasn't love maybe it just felt good in the moment maybe you got caught up in the hype and that's okay it happens to almost all of us if not all of us at some point in life but we have to just be real very clear with ourselves about what's really driving the intention right now but I think all those things I mentioned is what encompasses love of and that's like the foundation of it and then from there we have to look at some other things to see how we can move forward so many times like you you convince yourself something's love and what I find really interesting is that so many people fall in love too fast and no one wants to go for the slow patient understanding love which is what love requires you just said love is kind love is patient love is understanding those things take time I think those things take time to nurture and to to make sure that we're doing it correctly for each other so it's about learning each other's Love Languages and how we make it work in within that Dynamic I think also because so many people are not used to dealing with emotions at on that level being that vulnerable people mishandle it all right so it takes time for us to get to a place so we understand how to manage this and work through this however I think that I'm a huge believer in connection and I believe connection is like your spirit recognizing its match and it's very instant when you speak to couples who said they experience a connection they'll tell you first conversation first time meeting first date first week it was pretty fast so to me the the recognizing of something deeper being here can happen very quickly but how we now cultivate that and how we move forward is where we need to take our time and make sure we're not rushing and overlooking certain important issues that need to be discussed and addressed first to me it's the understanding of chemistry versus compatibility and the idea that there needs to be a spark there needs to be a connection that I feel with someone like you're saying on a deeper level but I find that I find that most people are not Adept and knowing whether the connection they feel with someone is deeper or physical yeah like I would say that it's easy to it you can often feel a spark with if you meet a lot of people you can feel a spot with a lot of people but that doesn't mean that they're the right person to build a relationship absolutely right yes so it's connection to me is a very rare occurrence right yes so I feel that people who've actually experienced it they can tell you maybe once in their life if you're lucky two times maybe all right but it's not this thing that happens with everybody whereas chemistry uh feeling of spark these things can happen with a lot of different people yeah so I do think there's there's this education that's needed to understand how we differentiate these things so that we don't confuse them because I see a lot of people take that chemistry and think oh this is it this is the one it's like but you had chemistry with the last five people why is this one the one and not them so I do think we have to be careful with that yeah I think so so we're on the same page there's three things there's connection on the deeper level there's chemistry which is like the spark on a more superficial level and then there's compatibility which is like what makes get lost and I can relate to that with my wife I definitely felt so I I'm one of those people who I kind of knew from the first few moments when I met my wife before she was my wife was like I was like yeah this is my person like I felt that way yeah for sure I felt that connection and there was chemistry there too but it had to be turned into compatibility in order to create a long lasting relationship we've been together for 10 years we're still learning building going through everything but that was a big part of it so that I can get behind is do you see it that way too or is there something different in so how do you see it believe it or not I used to make compatibility the least important but that was because I was looking at it the wrong way once I kind of looked at the definition again and compatibility is about two people coexisting in harmony yeah then I was like okay no you you have to have that I just I got caught up more so in like let's say a dating site says okay we're gonna decide who's compatible so I view compatible as like an on the paper it looks good it's supposed to match but you can have a lot of people who are supposed to be compatible and it doesn't work absolutely so I think that it's compatibility is that add-on once we have the connection and the chemistry now we have to create that Harmony which is the compatibility yes I agree with you and and it is interesting how that word compatibility is thrown around and you're so right that compatibility on paper doesn't mean compatibility in real life exactly and to me compatibility really has another word inside of it which is like adaptability and that deeper understanding of an individual where you know how much you're willing to adapt around certain parts of the relationship but we'll get to that I think a lot of people like you know and and that's where we got into this conversation around what is slow a lot of people are waiting to feel like is this person wasting my time are they the one and so they don't have a deeper connection maybe they had that spark of chemistry and now that's kind of subsided how do you know if someone's wasting your time how do you know if you're letting yourself be used or wasted in that way so to me again I think it always starts with self and you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you because just use an example let's say you're a woman and the only reason why you're holding on to this guy is because he's a nice guy you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you figure let me try to make it work you're wasting your time this is where you're setting yourself up for disaster every single time so if it's not born out of a true connection love a genuine desire you really like this individual of course there's always things we have to work through but is the foundation strong enough for us to say okay we can make something special here and I think once we are honest with ourselves that kind of helps answer the question because sometimes we get so caught up trying to animal lies the other individual that is like we get in our heads and now we're missing the mark on what's really important here and we can't always say for sure what's going on with them I will say that in general if this person isn't willing to talk about things they're wasting your time if they're not willing to address or correct things that have been talked about they're wasting your time if you guys aren't on the same page about what you want and where you want to go in life wasting time so there are some things I think we can just look at and say listen this is pointless here but a lot of times and I have to say this especially for women women's intuition is extremely powerful I'm a huge believer in it and I feel like women know very early this isn't it but they rationalize reasons to convince themselves to give this man a chance and this again is a waste of time because it just doesn't work I've seen people turn what should have been maybe a couple weeks of dating into years of being married to someone they were not happy with all because they did not listen to themselves from the beginning they knew what it was but they just could not accept it for what it was yeah and I love that point on intuition it's almost like when a relationship finally ends a lot of us think to ourselves I knew they weren't right yeah like I knew it I knew that they weren't the one but you just didn't listen to that part of yourself yes so so let's break it down for people let's help people out we started talking about three very important words connection which you defined chemistry which we've defined in compatibility which we've defined how do people know the difference between connection and chemistry when they meet someone because I find that the science shows that you're experiencing dopamine and cortisol at the same times you're experiencing the reward chemical and stress chemical at the same time which gives you that chemistry feeling which is the feeling of butterflies in your stomach or like do they like me are they into me what should I wear that kind of feeling but then you're talking about a deeper connection how do you hear the difference because I think a lot of us just get swept up in the feeling of I'm So Into that person they're so into me how do you know so I think one is are you even being yourself or can you be yourself with this individual if if you're presenting your representative then this is not a real connection this is them falling for that person that you're presenting but that's not real so to me you have you should be already being yourself but with that person you have a connection with it's a more natural flow we don't have to force it we just feel so much more comfortable around them I think in addition to that is when you when you find yourself all caught up in the moment and caught up in that chemistry again you have to ask yourself what am I really attaching myself to what about what do I really like about this individual what I find is that when it's really about chemistry we're still on the surface you don't really know about them yet you just know you guys had a good time maybe you had fun at this event you guys were able to talk about a lot of different things which is great which is gonna also be important if there is a connection however do you even know what college did they want do you know what kind of Life they want to live you know are you guys really on the same page I think connection is our paths align our purpose is align so for us to align we have to have a deeper understanding of where we're headed and can we head there together so so that's why I think though you may feel it or you may feel like you're feeling it you have to do your due diligence to dig deeper to find out okay is this just I got caught up on the surface or there is something real here yeah and I think once we ask enough questions because I think that's the other big problem we have this experience where we feel this chemistry we're so excited and now we're afraid to ask questions because we don't want to blow up the fantasy yes you know what I'm saying we're just like no no I want to keep believing this is great so let me not ask anything let me not run this person away let me not rock the boat but that's going to be what tells us if this is real or not yes I think you're I think you've hit on something there like we're so scared of losing someone that we're okay with not asking important questions and discovering important truths that actually define whether this relationship is going to last absolutely and that is ultimately going back to your point earlier that is ultimately you not being yourself right you're losing yourself scared that you're going to lose the other person so you're okay with not being yourself do you think it's ever okay this is a funny question I think but I have to ask you because I think it's a healthy discussion do you think it's ever okay to present different sides of yourself in order to attract someone or do you think that you're ultimately setting yourself up for failure in a relationship almost like I think a lot of people they may not become someone completely different but I think a lot of people are like oh I'm gonna show my smart side because it will attract this person or I'm gonna show my this side because they're like that are you saying any of that kind of molding is unhealthy or do you think there's room for that I think anything that is not sustainable is unhealthy so look at it as if I'm a man and I'm meeting this woman I want to impress her so I'm like okay I'm gonna try to spend all my money take a nice five-star restaurant all these things but deep inside I prefer a more simple lifestyle you know I don't like all that extra stuff okay that's horrible that's a sale for disaster that's unhealthy because you can't sustain what you're presenting to that individual that's gonna draw them in so whatever it is another like common example is you'll have women who love to communicate they want to be able to talk to you every single day but because they're afraid of coming off a certain kind of way they'll hold back on their communication so now they'll make it seem like they're okay with talking every now and then we don't always have to text and then this guy falls for that he falls for this low standard I won't call low standard but not having such a high expectation of him when it comes to communication then he finally gets with the woman her true self is going to come out at some point no one can suppress their true self forever it comes out and now it's like what is this I did not sign up for this now we're fighting now we're stressed because you want him to call you more he was used to you not being worried about it so much that's why it's going to always not work out so it's extremely unhealthy unless we're presenting a side of us that is truly us and we can sustain it you've hit on something again that that at the beginning of relationships we often display unrealistic standards and we set those yes and then when things shift and now you're back in reality again the other person's like but wait a minute I thought you were really into me and I even went through that with my wife when we first met I was able to spend pretty much every day with her because I didn't have a job and so I was looking for work I was applying I would go see her at her College every day and I would spend the day with her and I'd be in the library applying for jobs while she was studying yeah and I could see it every day and I think I saw every day potentially for like six months maybe every single day five days a week at least and then when I got a job that wasn't the case anymore because I was at work now and I'd set this unrealistic expectation that we could see each other all the time and even in the beginning I would see her all the time because I'd spend time with her family but we wouldn't spend time with my family because I hadn't told my family yet and so now that my family knew we were trying to split the time and all of a sudden it was like wait a minute we used to spend time at my house and so even in little things like that it took a bit of adapting because I'd set a false standard in our relationship and then thankfully my wife was adapting and she understood and she got it and it was fine but I think for so many people you set unrealistic expectations in who you are yes and that's hard to come back from absolutely yeah and that's why it's so important for us to know who we are so that we can present the real from the jump you know because again A lot of times people you know this idea that we're always changing yes I do think we're always evolving but some of the big shifts that you see are is not because that's just the way life is it's because you did take the time to figure yourself out first and then you got with this person and now you want them to adjust now thank God for you she was able to adjust but there's a lot of people that they can't handle that yeah and now everything falls apart from there so that's why yeah we have to be very careful with what we're presenting from the beginning yeah it's I I agree with you on that that we think people change but actually they just start to understand themselves exactly they went from being completely unconscious about who they were you met an unconscious version of a person yeah and now you think they're changing but they just became conscious of who they are absolutely and but the thing is Stefan as you know like Society doesn't encourage that time of getting to know yourself right when you're young you're not trained in how to think about who you want to be you're trained in thinking about what you want to I do it's about your job it's about your career you're not thinking about who you are as a human being or as a person so how do we in this Society where understanding who you are is not clear it's not encouraged where where does one start or where have you kind of found great insights in trying to discover who we are I would love to see more parents encouraging their children to explore how they're feeling about who they are like what I have found is a lot of people who let's say I I had one client where she wanted to be an actress when she was a little kid uh but parents kind of push in a different direction now she's like a social worker but her desire is still to be an actress like the things that they they wanted to do they they want to do as an adult now you can find back in their childhood in a lot of cases so I feel like too many people have stifled their children's growth in certain areas with limited ideas of well this can't make money or this wouldn't be a good look for the family or whatever the case may be it's like no let them walk in it and see for themselves if that's really where they belong outside of that for me I think the big thing is getting in tune spiritually I'm just a huge believer in that I feel like me finding myself was when I went into what I call my Wilderness period I kind of just shut everything off that I was doing because I used to be all over having fun partying all these different things things and then God kind of slapped me upside my head and I had to like really pull away from everything and go deeper from within and it felt like a process of breaking me down to build me right back up and that's when I start to see things clearer because what I realized is the world is filled with distractions and it's the distractions why we can't see ourselves for who we really are if we simply shut off the distractions long enough you will learn a lot so even if someone just took a year off don't worry you know limit the TV you're watching limit the music you're listening to limit all the internet stuff just really go deeper within yourself spend more time alone spend more time you know thinking and processing you will learn a lot because again a lot of it is it isn't a problem of we don't know ourselves we are not aware and we're not willing to accept and once we allow ourselves to do those two things become aware and then accept it we become free yeah I I mean I agree with you I think that I've always been a big proponent of solitude to understand who you are because as soon as you have another person you now have another person's opinions you have to filter yes as soon as you have another person in front of you you have another person's judgments to filter and so now you can't even say what you truly think about something because you're constantly thinking what does that person think about me and my beliefs and so understanding your beliefs in solitude allows you to be really clear about what your values and beliefs are and and that's what it's there for I think when people get into if we switch to compatibility again the idea we talked about the difference between connection and chemistry but compatibility is really interesting because a lot of people believe that relationships should be hard and they require hard work and a lot of people believe relationships should be easy and everything should just flow where have you kind of discovered your lens on that Spectrum so okay there's a there's a couple ways to look at it I think that most relationships and I'll even be more specific most relations that involve connection and true love are typically hard not because relationships have to be hard but because most people have been hurt by something in their life are holding on to past traumas haven't resolved it once they meet this individual that they feel so strongly about it is scary this is where things get difficult it's the difficultness in how do I handle this how do I manage this you'll have people feel like they're losing themselves but they're not losing themselves their true self is coming out and it's it's the self that's been hiding behind that wall they've been using for quote-unquote protection but I always say the same module to protect you the same as blocking your blessings so now they're being pulled from behind it it's it's makes them feel some kind of way and again people start to mishandle things you also have situations where people are getting bad advice like I'm gonna give one example um there's this uh book called The Game by Neil Strauss I don't know if you ever read that book yeah it was great Neil you know you you answer that world to pick up artistry we learned it and he was great with the women but then once he found that woman that he fell in love with all that stuff doesn't work anymore so you have a lot of men being taught how to handle women in general but they don't understand that's not how you handle the woman you truly love and so now again you have individuals who though they are truly in love with this person they constantly mishandle it with bad Guidance with fear and all these things this is what makes it hard and and I even think that a lot of times the people who are supposed to be together sometimes will have the hardest time getting together but I believe that once we're able to conquer that part of it and actually come together it's not hard yes it takes work I believe we have to be conscious and mindful of how we treat our partners how we show up being willing to listen but I think it's so much easier to do those things with someone you have a connection with and you're truly in love with it's gonna always feel ten times harder when you're in the wrong relationship and I would argue the vast majority of people are in the wrong relationship that's why they're seeing it be so difficult and when you see this whole it's easy typically it's easy because you have two people who are not digging deeper they're they're trying to write out that chemistry we talked about earlier for as long as possible all right so yeah it seems like it's great it's easy no issues but it doesn't really work like that because they're just not facing the reality of the situation so I think we we have to understand that there is going to be some bumps in the road because of all the things that people have been through but once we're able to come together and we know this is our partner this is who we want to share our life with it can get so much better yeah and do you do you think that people have just been given generally the wrong education on how to deal with another person in their life 100 yeah because unfortunately a lot of individuals are giving advice from a bit or hurt place there and and they're trying to disguise it as I'm just looking out for you no you you have inhaled and you cannot properly guide them in a positive and loving Manner and I think that a lot of people you know I always say it's funny how we'll spend a lot of time getting educated for the for the sake of our careers and business but we don't do the same for relationships and yet relationships arguably are even more important than that career business and even if it's not a romantic relationship just relationships in general your ability to coexist with others connect with others is extremely important if you want that business to succeed you have to learn how to establish business relationships there's no way around it so we have to learn how to talk to people listen to people you know what I'm saying and just make make things work when we come together with other individuals so I definitely think that we're just lacking in a lot of education and again too many because there's so many voices on the internet now there's just so much bad advice being given and and the individuals giving it they may be giving like let's say 80 of the advice is accurate but it's that 20 that's completely off that can derail everything and that's the stuff that people are gravitating to and this is causing a lot of problems can you give us some example of some of the like not specific people or anything like that I just mean like could you give example of bad advice and what about it is bad or unhealthy for people to try and put into practice okay so one thing I heard recently was an individual told uh said some of the best advice you can give to men is to not fall in love you know basically just find a woman you want to be with and kind of keep it there the reason why I view that as horrible advice is because you sit down with any man who's lived enough life they will all be able to say there's been at least one time they fail deeply for a woman all right the problem isn't falling deep before a woman the problem is we don't know how to handle it once we get there the problem is because we're not accustomed to handling and processing our emotions a certain kind of way and being this vulnerable we don't understand what's going to be required of us in that moment we also kind of lose sight of because I'm a big believer in masculine and feminine energy and I believe that if she was attracted to you because of that masculine energy that you give off and now you become this emotional wreck because you don't know how to handle all these feelings you have for her well you start to become less attractive to her and it's not that it's not fixable it's fixable but again a lack of understanding and awareness derails the situation so rather than telling men don't fall in love because it's inevitable let's teach them how we walk in love how we make what I call Loving in your masculine how you maintain that energy and still be able to pour into that woman in a way that allows relationship to flourish yeah and how does that work when I think obviously a lot of people in that example that you're giving if if the person is attracted to someone because of their masculine energy but at the same time they want them to be empathetic and compassionate and kind which are generally seen as more feminine energy how does that person balance the two or is that is that not how you're explaining is that no it's about balance so we have to understand we all have masculine and feminine of course within us I'm a Believer in one must be your dominant energy the other is the one you tap into when necessary so as a man you can walk in your masculine and in those moments tap into those things but you can't just stay there all the time all right you can't just become this needy emotional God that's not going to work in the vast majority of cases and so what happens is there's this messaging that's being thrown out there that women don't like good guys I don't believe that's what it is I believe that women become less attracted when you don't know how to exude and walk in your masculine energy it's and and we're hiding behind the label of good guy you can be a good guy and still exude masculine energy and that's the thing and we also think that oh they like bad boys no if you look deeper it's really the masculine energy that that quote-unquote bad boy exudes but what they desire is a mixture of both the same way that we would want a mixture of both we would want a loving sweet woman family woman whatever or and if you're a guy who wants a mask and woman cool but you don't want her to be just that you know you want her to have the ability to tap into that other side when necessary I think we all desire that balance in our partner and I think it's healthy and if we just learn how to maintain it and how to nurture it we would see greater success in relationships yeah what are some of the skills with with mastering that energy that you think we're missing out on and balancing that energy and knowing when to be which and because the reason why it's hard is I think we live in a binary world right like you feel like you have to choose like you're either a bad boy or you're a good girl you are a doer or you're a thinker you're uh winner or you're a loser right like we think like that and some people go okay you need to be masculine or I can be feminine and I I definitely relate to what you were saying like I believe that there is a lot about me that is massively masculine in energy using that language and terminology my drive my ambition how I work my strategic mind and at the same time I consider myself to have a lot of great feminine energy and qualities where it comes to like empowering others and nurturing and the ability to hold deep compassionate space and be empathetic which are all powerful qualities for for everyone right Beyond gender they're powerful qualities and I appreciate and it's taken a long time to know when to be which and it's still and I still make mistakes right there's still sometimes like I should have been more assertive I should have been more affectionate so we live in a world that finds it hard to hold two opposing ideas at the same time yeah we don't know how to do that in any sphere of life let alone within ourselves so what are some of the skills that we can learn in order to nurture both those energies in a healthy way inside of ourselves so I think one it's going to require a lot of if you're already in a relationship it's going to boil down to a lot of transparency and communication you know her if you're that man trying to understand that woman and when you can walk in those two energies her being willing to be honest and open about you know what this was too much over here or I needed some of this over here and in time you're going to become more aware and understanding it's going to be like second nature to you you won't have to overthink it and I think part of it is not overthinking it it's kind of like being ourselves but understanding that we have to learn when this is doing too much and vice versa I also think that in reality for a lot of men especially uh when we're talking about relationships and kind of losing that masculine energy the the underlying issue is fear all right when we become so afraid of losing this woman we lose ourselves and so a lot of men now fall into this very feminine needy space because they're just afraid we have to learn that listen like to me I feel if your partner thinks you're never gonna walk away from them no matter what they do you've lost that's that's a horrible place to be in we have to get to a place where we both understand that as long as we show up the way that we need to show up for each other we have each other's back we will be here but neither of us will tolerate an unhealthy relationship and someone who blatantly does not want to work on making this better I would want my the woman I'm with to feel that way and I need to feel that way once we understand that and you have the confidence of I can walk away if I have to that shifts your energy right there in itself and now you don't find yourself falling into that place where again you start to look a lot more unattractive or for some men they become yes men in their relationships thinking that makes her happy that's turning her off she doesn't want you to be her yes man she wants you to stand up for yourself sometimes give your opinion give your perspective she wants to be able to you know if anything be able to have discussions with you about these things not just you say whatever you want whatever you want whatever you want over time it becomes a problem so I think that once we conquer that fear once we create a space where we can talk about these moments and not feel some kind of way I think sometimes men are not they struggle with taking the criticism from their partner men and women we we all do when we feel when we have actual feelings for someone you know we don't care about you it's not as big of a deal but we're emotionally invested we're more sensitive to it but we have to understand that these criticisms are for the sake of making things better and strengthening this relationship so once we can get to that place it's going to be so much easier to grow in it and then I think it's just a matter of understanding that it's this balance isn't just for your relationship so look at it like from a sports perspective if I'm on a basketball team there may be moments where I need to take the lead and recognize all right everyone else is down someone needs to step up this is my moment and then there's other moments where I realize okay let's say we already have a team captain let me show them that I can follow serve do what needs to be done so that the team can win it's just becoming aware of what the moment requires you know and again I think the more in tune we get the more in tune we get with ourselves and the more in tune we get with our partner the easier it becomes to find that balance that's the challenge right the challenge is just how much patience we have with ourselves and others to realize that you walked into an imbalance unbalanced situation and now it's like how much patience how much time are we going to give it to get to that because the challenge is I think we walk into a situation thinking it's perfect whereas we should be walking into a relationship knowing it's imperfect absolutely and we're going to learn and figure it out together and I think that's what sets us up for failure is because we walk into it going it's perfect and deep down we know it isn't but somehow we gloss over it whereas I find when I know we're gonna fight when I know we're gonna argue and I know there's going to be disagreements that sets me up to develop the skills I need in order to navigate those things yes but if I assume like oh we're never gonna fight and I always get that right we always meet someone who goes to I mean a friend who goes to me Jay we never fight I'm like how long have you been together because I don't I don't know anyone who never fights I get that no one has to get to like yeah the heights of fights yeah I did that I did that it doesn't have to be a heated fight but I don't know anyone who doesn't disagree there you go all right right I think that's important for people to understand yeah there's a difference yes you have some individuals out there that'll say arguing is normal it's healthy and to me it's like listen if we're talking about arguing where we're now Crossing disrespectful lines negative lines you know the way that we the tone we take with each other all these things that's not healthy yes it may happen you should be prepared for that but it does let's not normalize it just gonna keep doing this and it's it is what it is but you're right to to be with each other long enough and never have a disagreement that's extremely rare okay extremely rare and I do think that again as you mentioned we have to be ready for those moments we have to understand and going back to how we find that balance especially as men and even for women it's recognizing so for example if my partner is in a very heated moment let's say she's in her masculine right now all right she's getting rough well meeting her with more masculine is probably going to only make things worse yeah this is the time for me to be compassionate go to her hold her calm her down bring her peace in that moment you see because it we need to balance each other out same thing on the flip side if I'm all heated and I'm I'm extra passionate and then my woman now comes with that same energy that's it now where button has this is her moment to say no let me now be the one to soften the moment up bring that Sweetness in there and everybody calms down so it's learning how to feed off of each other and recognize okay they're over here let me bring it back over here and now we can work from that point and we're both good the problem is that we all see compassion and sweetness and kindness in those moments as a weakness we don't want to be that person because we see that as losing we see that as giving in we see that as us losing our power and strength in a relationship if we become the comforter or if we become the carer right like that's that's a perception that is the perception and we have to change that that is the power position so who is more powerful the person that lets the energy dictate them how they're going to react or the person that brings the energy and dictates how they're going to make this situation play out so if I'm coming in to calm it down and being all sweet because I'm trying to bring peace here I'm in the power position I'm not losing anything I'm gonna gain more peace and happiness and Harmony if I succeed in what I'm trying to do so we have to get out of that mindset of this makes us weaker and that is the big key of it that's a big problem that for a lot of women who struggle with their feminine energy that's a big issue where they feel that being feminine is weakness it's what got them taken advantage of and got them hurt but I always say it's not the feminine energy that's the problem it's who you give it to do they respect it did they honor it you know it's the same thing as a man does she respect your masculine if she doesn't then that might just be a sign you're with the wrong person but don't stop being that guy because the woman who's best for you is going to need that in those moments that that's exactly what it is is that when people have been their best selves for the wrong person that person brings out the worst in them yes right like when someone's been their best loving kindness self but someone took advantage of it that person now thinks next time I've got to be aggressive I've got to be you know powerful I've got to be strong in this way and I feel like that's kind of what most people are dealing with we know that is that you're just dealing with a wounded version of someone yes not a healed version of someone but I think people struggle to trust again and again especially when they see the same patterns in the person they're weird and I guess the question is why do we keep making the same mistakes because I feel like a lot of us keep dating the same people yeah and there's a part of us that also just keeps closing off or being more wounded it's almost like if you cut yourself you now walk around with your hand over that you don't want to get cut again and then if you lead it off and it gets cut even deeper now you're even more conscious of that and so I find that people are doing that where they're closing their heart more and more because it's been so misused and abused and I understand that I understand people don't want to be abused and misused but I guess the question is how do people find people that they know respect them so that they can be their best version or be a better version of themselves so you know you can't drive out Darkness with more Darkness you can't expose someone who's gonna hurt you by being someone who's closed off and holding back yourself we have it's kind of what we were just talking about we have to look at being vulnerable loving and open as not just well I'm setting myself to be hurt no it's how you expose people faster if I come with that energy and you cannot respect it match it then I know you don't belong here but if I hold back I give you a free pass to hold back so now we have two individuals who are hiding behind their walls because it's comfortable there but you can't really see what's what do we really have in front of us those walls are blinding you and you can't properly evaluate the situation so one we we got to get to a place of healing from our past so that we're not just walking around with the hand over the cut no you you gotta let the cup breathe you gotta let it heal all right holding on put your hand on there is delaying the process and like you said all that's gonna happen is when you finally take your hand off but you're taking it off with the wrong person and you haven't learned see what I want people to realize is your actions weren't the problem meaning you being loving sweet kind compassionate wasn't the problem it was the person separate those two things that you don't stop doing the good things now granted are there levels to this to where we have to learn again if I'm thinking about a man if you got so deeply emotional to where you kind of lost your your masculine energy and you became very needy okay you can say all right I need to continue to be loving but I know I have to learn how to draw a line I have to learn how not to cross that moment and again you only crossed it because you were unhealthy to begin with you only cross it because you were afraid to begin with once you get to that place where you're healthy and confident you won't find yourself Crossing that line anymore yeah you won't tolerate certain things anymore so we have to heal we have to be confident and we have to let our light shine so that we can expose what's in front of us easier that's a brilliant answer I I love the differentiation between how sharing your light is not the problem the person's the problem because we yeah we start to doubt whether being a good person a loving person is actually what wins in the world yeah and the truth is that it does win but it has to win with someone who can receive it and absolutely hold that space with you and share that space with you and I find that a lot of people keep giving that energy to the wrong person because we feel we can make them better right like there's this feeling of like I can change this person I can make them better I can heal them there's some of us want to fix people yeah and that means we assume the person we're with is broken and I think this is such a subconscious thing like if you're always critiquing if you're always picking at stuff with your partner chances are you don't think they're great like just now you think there's some issues with them when you think that you can fix them and they're broken tell us about that angle where now we're almost we've talked about being the loving and kind person but sometimes we're being the person that thinks we're loving and kind because we want to improve someone but that person doesn't want to improve one big problem is that what's really driving people to pick that individual is that by being the one that can upgrade you improve you I have more value here by having more value I have a false sense of security you have to appreciate me you're less likely to walk away you're less likely to cheat because you're lucky to have me I feel like I'm the prize here but those situations never really work because again you're choosing someone that is not capable of pouring into you the way you need you're basing this off of what you could do for them and that's not sustainable and you're choosing them because again you have more emotional control here what happens to so many people especially women it's something that I call the unhealthy love cycle of women where women in their first love experience outside of any childhood trauma may have experienced they're their most loving they're just out there they go all the way in but that typically happens at a younger age at an age where men are not mature enough to handle those kind of emotions that level of commitment so on and so forth so she gets hurt after she gets hurt her moment is saying to herself I will never let this happen to me again so now the woman starts to consciously or subconsciously choose men who are I don't want to say lower than hurt but essentially a man who does not take her there he's good enough to be with but I'm not that vulnerable with him he can't hurt me like that first love hurt me and so that Dynamic usually leads to picking that person I can fix I can make better who will appreciate and respect me but again it doesn't work out and many times you'll see these same situations the guy will move on to cheat on her not because and I have to say this because some women think yeah he's just being a man no not because he's a man but because you chose a man that you could never be the woman that he needed and he could never be the man that you needed once he kind of either gets what he needs from you to build himself up or the Smoke Clears from him being infatuated with you he starts to realize I'm not getting everything that I desire and now you building him up has brought him more attention from other women so now the the difference between what you're not giving him and what someone else is willing to give him becomes way clearer now the Temptation gets way stronger and he ends up doing something or she ends up cheating as well because he's safe but he doesn't fulfill her he doesn't satisfy her he he doesn't excite her in any kind of way and that's why I always said earlier like the safe choice is almost always the wrong choice but that is a function of people trying to choose these fix or uppers because they think it's going to give them some leverage there it's leverage that's it yeah it's leverage yeah how do you know when it's time to go like how do you know when it's like I feel like this is a common question where it's like how do you know when it's just I've tried everything we've tried together tried our best maybe we went to therapy maybe we got a coach or maybe you know maybe we didn't do those things how do I just know that I feel like I need to go but I'm scared of being alone yeah I'm I'm scared of dealing with the reality that I put in a lot of energy and I feel like you said this earlier but a lot of people stay in something for a lot longer than they should because they'd rather not be alone yes they'd rather not face reality they'd rather not lose two years of their life they'd rather lose two more thinking that this this should stay like how do you know when it's time to go let me first say this yes I think I think Society needs to change their thinking as far as Letting Go doesn't always mean it can't work out later it's just that it cannot work out under these circumstances all right because some people say well I feel like they're the one okay maybe they are but maybe the time is not right and it's letting go that will allow you both to do what needs to be done in your own personal lives that would allow you to come back together and have something way more amazing so that's number one thing to consider but outside of that it's when one if that person is unwilling to put in the work necessary it's time to go there's like so many times I'll I'll have a video go up about communication and someone will comment saying I've tried talking to him and he doesn't want to talk to me and in my head I'm like why are you still with them if he refuses to talk to you you've already tried there's nothing else to do but people will let it Linger on and continue why they can why they consistently complain or unhappy about this specific issue it's not gonna magically get better they're not gonna just change it just because all of a sudden they see oh it needs to change no if they're fighting it now they have no reason to change it and what people have to understand you know especially with this whole trying to fix people up healing and facing your traumas is one of the hardest things for people to do so if they already have you in their life they're essentially getting the incentive or the benefit of relationship without having to do the deeper work it's almost like if I'm at a job and the job says you need to have a master's degree to work here but we're going to hire you anyway and give you time to get that master's degree if getting that degree is super hard to you you're gonna drag that out as long as possible yeah you may never get the degree until they fire you when they fire you and you realize oh my gosh if I don't do this I'll never get this person back I'll never get this opportunity back now they might go and get it because it's very tough to walk down the path of the healing process so if they're not willing to work on it you guys have already discussed it and I think that's a big thing because there's a lot of relationships that end and the couples don't even know what the real issue was so the communication they'll say well we talked about no you guys argued you guys lashed out there wasn't a clear communication as to what the problem was what is expected how do we go about this if you've done that and I believe one of the most effective ways to do that is through a letter because I feel like verbal communication of deep issues and concerns they typically don't go well you know people get distracted they forget what they want to say the other person gets defensive they're not they're listening to rebuttal not to understand but when there's a letter involved it gives you time to get everything out you can you can evaluate your tone leave no stone unturned and now they have an opportunity to process it on their time to really take it in and then you guys can come together and discuss the letter and now it's so much easier to stay on point and get everything covered if we've done that and they're still unwilling or there's still no progress It's Time to Go yeah that's great that's great advice and I for me that's the biggest one it's like you can't make something last if only one person's working on it you can't keep hoping and waiting and wishing and and like you said that ending doesn't mean forever and often I found that two people need to grow individually to be able to grow collectively and we're forcing growing together so hard but we need space to grow and if you can't grow together chances are you need to grow apart in order to see whether you grow together again or grow for someone else and all of those options are okay but we put so much pressure on people to grow together that they grow apart yeah and actually if they chose to grow apart and grow separately they could come back together if they learn the lessons and I think that's a mistake too though sometimes people think I'm gonna go learn this lesson for this person I meet a lot of people they're like okay they broke up with me because I wasn't XYZ now I'm gonna go become XYZ to win them back yeah and I always find I'm just like well no you should go become XYZ if you think you were missing XYZ but not to win them back because you don't know what they're gonna do what's your take on people trying to win people back so I 100 agree with you like if we're trying to learn or grow it needs to be for the benefit of who we are and just whoever we deal with so was almost like if I was a bad Communicator in this relationship I shouldn't learn to better communicate for that person I need to better communicate for whoever I'm going to be with if you can't see it in that light then maybe you're looking at the wrong thing my thing is this I think it all depends on what the details of the situation was what led to the breakup what were you overlooking what was missing are these fixable issues because a lot of people are trying to win back someone where the issues are not resolved so it's like what's the point of going back we're just going to go in the same cycle all over again they're letting this idea of I miss them I don't want to be without them blind them from the fact that you two did not get along well or you two don't want the same things or YouTube just whatever it is maybe there's a lack of sexual satisfaction I don't know why I feel the need to mention that but it happens a lot of times you have to stay focused on what led to the end and can this be corrected if it can cool but as you mentioned listen correcting it does not guarantee you they're coming back and even if they will come back you don't know when they may need so you may have figured yourself out in six months they might need a year and I would argue if you guys are truly meant for each other and at the end of the year you need a year too you're just overlooking some things and you're rushing the process because you want to get back to them yeah it's I've never found a situation where it was truly only one person who had problems and the other person was squeaky clean no no you thought you were but you got some stuff too you needed to correct of course so I think we have to be honest with ourselves and just keep striving to be better and rather than focus on winning them back just become the best you because if you do and there's a true connection there the opportunity will present itself again and you too will be able to make something of it and the struggle is that when people finally make that decision to break up or let go the study showed that the parts of your brain that are activated in a breakup are the same as detoxing from cocaine right like you're literally trying to detox so you can have a craving yeah for someone that's bad for you yeah or also it says that the areas of the brain that are activated in a breakup are the areas that are the same with physical pain so if someone like punching the stomach the reason why we say like my heart feels broken is because it literally feels like something's broken yeah so when you're going through a breakup when you're feeling the craving to be with that person again studies show that eight over eighty percent of people are looking at what their exes are doing on social media right probably through a Finster account or whatever but you have to you have to know what are some of the healthiest tips that you've given to people and the people that you've worked with that have genuinely helped people move through a breaker the first thing is to ask yourself again why was I even there why am I holding on to this individual again I think sometimes we get so blinded by just the experience or our desire to have this person for whatever reason that we Overlook what was really missing or why this could not work anyway what you'll also find is and I'm sure there's probably a study on it where if you if they broke up with you you ever see a situation it happens on TV a lot where the person could be like okay I'm gonna break up with my partner they're planning on it they've been practicing in their head right it took them a couple weeks to muster up the strength they're about to do it and then the partner breaks up with them yeah now it's oh my gosh I gotta get them back yeah so it's like you just forgot this whole time that was your plan yeah it just gave you the past to do it but now because we don't like to be the one being let go of now we're fighting hard to get it back yeah so we have to really not fall into these little traps that happen to us as human beings our brains just playing tricks on us or something where we confuse these emotions for oh my gosh I must really love them or even like you said you go into that detox and because you miss I always tell people no matter how bad the relationship was there's always good moments so if you're trying to break free you can't just let your brain focus on the good moments you have to remind yourself why this doesn't work but if you keep focusing on the good you start to make yourself think oh because I missed this good moment I must miss them and there's this quote that says sometimes you're not missing the person you're missing the feeling so you've got to be able to differentiate those two things so getting back to how we get over these breakups is recognizing why were we really there to begin with you know could this actually work the next thing is you know I'm a huge believer that a lot of times a breakup is a blessing in disguise even if there is a chance that you two can work together or this is the one for you you may have needed this time to re-evaluate and get things in order something is obviously wrong even if you it may be something as deep as because I've seen situations where everything was going amazingly well on the surface and the person broke up with them let's say the woman lets go of the man so to the man that's really confusing but what it was is that that woman she had not healed from her past relationships and this relationship being so good was scaring her and what happens is the the better you are the scarier it becomes for her she's looking for something to be wrong she has to validate her fear somehow wow when she can't find it she'll either sabotage the relationship or she'll run from it So to that man it may seem like this is so unfair which yeah it sucks but if this woman didn't break up with you now you were inevitably gonna face this same ending but at a worse time yeah all right this is still best that is happening now at least if she can go do what she needs to do there's a chance for this to come back around later but it's hard for us to see it in the moment so I think just really we also have to focus on our healing whenever a breakup happens the mistake we make is that we think it's about healing from the breakup no it's healing from everything you've been through you've probably been sleeping under the rug your childhood trauma for years maybe the last two three relationships whatever it is so and and not healing from those things is contributing to your struggle to get past this breakup and contributing to why you even chose this person to begin with I'm a huge believer that if you haven't healed you are 90 likely to choose the wrong person yeah it's just too difficult to pick that person that you truly love and can truly love you and accept that level of vulnerability when you have still not resolved your past traumas and past hurts yeah so to me that's the next big thing is just focus on your healing process because in that process you will also be able to see more clearly if this is really for you or not like walking around unhealed is like walking around with broken glasses you you can't see straight no matter how hard you try but healing will clear up your vision really really fast and now it'd be like oh wait a minute I didn't belong there yeah you know thank God the broke breakup happened you know now I'm in a better place I move forward so to me I think and I would say in addition to those things is just have an accountability partner whether that's friend coach therapist someone that can help keep you in check help remind you what you need to do someone that you know you have to talk to and update what's going on so you feel like okay I don't want to come back so I'm saying I'm doing the same thing over and over again it doesn't guarantee success but it helps it helps move the needle some so I would highly encourage that that one mindset you spoke about that that changes everything and it hit me today I was just thinking if we were just able in a moment to recognize that something painful now was going to be good for us in five years time that would change so many things in our life yes but we're so poor at dealing with current pain yeah even if it means future joy that we just can't accept that I have to go through this like in everything right like knowing that someone breaking up with you just saved you 10 years of a wasted life is so much more than knowing you're gonna have to go through a few months of pain and 10 months of pain maybe it's a bit longer maybe it's two three years but we just have to get our head around that that sometimes the best things that happen to you are protecting more of your life than the pain that they're causing you need the Peace of knowing I did what I needed to do that's it yeah because anytime you feel like well maybe I could have done this but I could have done that leaves the door open for doubt do it well exactly so it's like and that's why I'm such a big believer in you know there's people who say well once they're done they're done they'll just move on and I'm like no no Express Yourself get everything off your chest because you don't need anything to linger and you questioning well what if I did this different no make sure speak your full piece and now you can say all right I did what I had to do it is what it is I move forward and I mean it makes it easier it may not make it a hundred percent you know not an issue whatsoever but it's gonna be easier and also also for me that's why like my relationship with God is so important because that's where I find my peace in dealing with a situation that doesn't work out the way I want to I always tell myself okay if this isn't working out God has something better for me you know if this is happening right now there's a purpose because I know if I followed his guidance throughout this process there's no need for me to question why is this the current outcome there's a reason for this and I've been through these things enough times to see as you mentioned the reward is going to come it may come next week it may come years from now it will come and I'll be able to see how it all connected yeah Stefan it's been incredible talking to you man this has been such a great back-to-back flowing conversation uh we end every on purpose episode with the final five which is like a rapid fire which means every question has to be answered with one word to one sentence maximum okay so here are your final five the first question is what's the best relationship advice you've ever received or heard or given it is to love fully lovefully and be yourself because as I said earlier that's how you will expose quicker who is for you and who isn't for you second question what is the worst relationship advice you've ever heard or received get under someone to get over someone [Laughter] uh question number three uh how would you defin	we're just like no no I want to keep believing this is great so let me not ask anything let me not run this person away let me not rock the boat but that's going to be what tells us if this is real or not yes I think you're I think you've hit on something there like we're so scared of losing someone that we're okay with not asking important questions and discovering important truths that actually define whether this relationship is going to last absolutely and that is ultimately going back to your point earlier that is ultimately you not being yourself right you're losing yourself scared that you're going to lose the other person so you're okay with not being yourself do you think it's ever okay this is a funny question I think but I have to ask you because I think it's a healthy discussion do you think it's ever okay to present different sides of yourself in order to attract someone or do you think that you're ultimately setting yourself up for failure in a relationship almost like I think a lot of people they may not become someone completely different but I think a lot of people are like oh I'm gonna show my smart side because it will attract this person or I'm gonna show my this side because they're like that are you saying any of that kind of molding is unhealthy or do you think there's room for that I	-2	6	4	we're just like no no I want to keep believing this is great so let me not ask anything let me not run this person away let me not rock the boat but that's going to be what tells us if this is real or not	I think you're I think you've hit on something there like we're so scared of losing someone that we're okay with not asking important questions and discovering important truths that actually define whether this relationship is going to last	3,-5,4	8,4,6	3	-5	4	8	4	6
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPQBcb9wf8Q	4,056	mPQBcb9wf8Q	2023-03-27 00:00:00	you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you're wasting your time the best-selling author and host the number one Health and Wellness podcast on purpose with Jay Shetty what are the signs that someone deeply loves you because I feel like we live in this world where we're always wondering do they love me do they like me do they really like me are they really into me how do you know when you deeply love someone and when someone deeply loves you how do you even know so I'm gonna start with an answer that people probably won't expect to me the first key is do you truly love them because look at it like this to me a lot of people get caught up in infatuation um they have unhealthy attachments they have different motivations to why they decided this is the person that I want and that can make them feel like they're in love but to me true love flows both ways it's not a one-sided thing so when you can say I I'm not into them like that if we look deep into that situation I can almost guarantee what we'll find is infatuation attachment something else but when you can say no I feel it too I'm deeply in love with them I think that's your first key because without that nothing else matters because a lot of people are choosing Partners based off of what they love me so much so I assume it's safe here and this is a good choice to make but the safe choice is usually the wrong choice and a lot of these people select this individual thinking everything's going to be okay but because you're not really into them you can never be what they need and they were never truly what you needed which is why you never even got to that level with them so to choose them without first evaluating do you truly love them would not be wise yeah that's that's a great question and I think people struggle with that question too because I think we think of love as so many different things wrapped into one for example I could think I love someone because of how they treat me I could think I love someone because they have one quality that I really wish I had or I could love someone because I think that they're out of my league and they give me a bit of attention yeah and so what we think is love is so complex and so wide that we never stop to ask ourselves like what does love mean like what's the definition of love like how do I Define love so how do you define love and how do you encourage other people to create their definitions of Love well for me first off is always God is love and then when we take it from there love is about kindness compassion patience understanding a willingness to be selfless important to that individual but I think what's also important for people to understand is when we're trying to apply it to romantic relationships we have to understand that there's other ingredients that are necessary before we can move forward so you could love someone dearly but if they are not emotionally ready because maybe they haven't healed from their past maybe there's still some things that need to work out in their life then it wouldn't be time to move forward in a relationship with them and we have this bad habit of the minute we feel like there's love there we want to move forward exactly and as you mentioned we can get caught up sometimes in but we love them because of what they do for us but what are you prepared to do for them love is about giving all right so we have to ask ourselves okay do we know what their needs are are we willing to fulfill those needs because if not maybe this wasn't love maybe it just felt good in the moment maybe you got caught up in the hype and that's okay it happens to almost all of us if not all of us at some point in life but we have to just be real very clear with ourselves about what's really driving the intention right now but I think all those things I mentioned is what encompasses love of and that's like the foundation of it and then from there we have to look at some other things to see how we can move forward so many times like you you convince yourself something's love and what I find really interesting is that so many people fall in love too fast and no one wants to go for the slow patient understanding love which is what love requires you just said love is kind love is patient love is understanding those things take time I think those things take time to nurture and to to make sure that we're doing it correctly for each other so it's about learning each other's Love Languages and how we make it work in within that Dynamic I think also because so many people are not used to dealing with emotions at on that level being that vulnerable people mishandle it all right so it takes time for us to get to a place so we understand how to manage this and work through this however I think that I'm a huge believer in connection and I believe connection is like your spirit recognizing its match and it's very instant when you speak to couples who said they experience a connection they'll tell you first conversation first time meeting first date first week it was pretty fast so to me the the recognizing of something deeper being here can happen very quickly but how we now cultivate that and how we move forward is where we need to take our time and make sure we're not rushing and overlooking certain important issues that need to be discussed and addressed first to me it's the understanding of chemistry versus compatibility and the idea that there needs to be a spark there needs to be a connection that I feel with someone like you're saying on a deeper level but I find that I find that most people are not Adept and knowing whether the connection they feel with someone is deeper or physical yeah like I would say that it's easy to it you can often feel a spark with if you meet a lot of people you can feel a spot with a lot of people but that doesn't mean that they're the right person to build a relationship absolutely right yes so it's connection to me is a very rare occurrence right yes so I feel that people who've actually experienced it they can tell you maybe once in their life if you're lucky two times maybe all right but it's not this thing that happens with everybody whereas chemistry uh feeling of spark these things can happen with a lot of different people yeah so I do think there's there's this education that's needed to understand how we differentiate these things so that we don't confuse them because I see a lot of people take that chemistry and think oh this is it this is the one it's like but you had chemistry with the last five people why is this one the one and not them so I do think we have to be careful with that yeah I think so so we're on the same page there's three things there's connection on the deeper level there's chemistry which is like the spark on a more superficial level and then there's compatibility which is like what makes get lost and I can relate to that with my wife I definitely felt so I I'm one of those people who I kind of knew from the first few moments when I met my wife before she was my wife was like I was like yeah this is my person like I felt that way yeah for sure I felt that connection and there was chemistry there too but it had to be turned into compatibility in order to create a long lasting relationship we've been together for 10 years we're still learning building going through everything but that was a big part of it so that I can get behind is do you see it that way too or is there something different in so how do you see it believe it or not I used to make compatibility the least important but that was because I was looking at it the wrong way once I kind of looked at the definition again and compatibility is about two people coexisting in harmony yeah then I was like okay no you you have to have that I just I got caught up more so in like let's say a dating site says okay we're gonna decide who's compatible so I view compatible as like an on the paper it looks good it's supposed to match but you can have a lot of people who are supposed to be compatible and it doesn't work absolutely so I think that it's compatibility is that add-on once we have the connection and the chemistry now we have to create that Harmony which is the compatibility yes I agree with you and and it is interesting how that word compatibility is thrown around and you're so right that compatibility on paper doesn't mean compatibility in real life exactly and to me compatibility really has another word inside of it which is like adaptability and that deeper understanding of an individual where you know how much you're willing to adapt around certain parts of the relationship but we'll get to that I think a lot of people like you know and and that's where we got into this conversation around what is slow a lot of people are waiting to feel like is this person wasting my time are they the one and so they don't have a deeper connection maybe they had that spark of chemistry and now that's kind of subsided how do you know if someone's wasting your time how do you know if you're letting yourself be used or wasted in that way so to me again I think it always starts with self and you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you because just use an example let's say you're a woman and the only reason why you're holding on to this guy is because he's a nice guy you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you figure let me try to make it work you're wasting your time this is where you're setting yourself up for disaster every single time so if it's not born out of a true connection love a genuine desire you really like this individual of course there's always things we have to work through but is the foundation strong enough for us to say okay we can make something special here and I think once we are honest with ourselves that kind of helps answer the question because sometimes we get so caught up trying to animal lies the other individual that is like we get in our heads and now we're missing the mark on what's really important here and we can't always say for sure what's going on with them I will say that in general if this person isn't willing to talk about things they're wasting your time if they're not willing to address or correct things that have been talked about they're wasting your time if you guys aren't on the same page about what you want and where you want to go in life wasting time so there are some things I think we can just look at and say listen this is pointless here but a lot of times and I have to say this especially for women women's intuition is extremely powerful I'm a huge believer in it and I feel like women know very early this isn't it but they rationalize reasons to convince themselves to give this man a chance and this again is a waste of time because it just doesn't work I've seen people turn what should have been maybe a couple weeks of dating into years of being married to someone they were not happy with all because they did not listen to themselves from the beginning they knew what it was but they just could not accept it for what it was yeah and I love that point on intuition it's almost like when a relationship finally ends a lot of us think to ourselves I knew they weren't right yeah like I knew it I knew that they weren't the one but you just didn't listen to that part of yourself yes so so let's break it down for people let's help people out we started talking about three very important words connection which you defined chemistry which we've defined in compatibility which we've defined how do people know the difference between connection and chemistry when they meet someone because I find that the science shows that you're experiencing dopamine and cortisol at the same times you're experiencing the reward chemical and stress chemical at the same time which gives you that chemistry feeling which is the feeling of butterflies in your stomach or like do they like me are they into me what should I wear that kind of feeling but then you're talking about a deeper connection how do you hear the difference because I think a lot of us just get swept up in the feeling of I'm So Into that person they're so into me how do you know so I think one is are you even being yourself or can you be yourself with this individual if if you're presenting your representative then this is not a real connection this is them falling for that person that you're presenting but that's not real so to me you have you should be already being yourself but with that person you have a connection with it's a more natural flow we don't have to force it we just feel so much more comfortable around them I think in addition to that is when you when you find yourself all caught up in the moment and caught up in that chemistry again you have to ask yourself what am I really attaching myself to what about what do I really like about this individual what I find is that when it's really about chemistry we're still on the surface you don't really know about them yet you just know you guys had a good time maybe you had fun at this event you guys were able to talk about a lot of different things which is great which is gonna also be important if there is a connection however do you even know what college did they want do you know what kind of Life they want to live you know are you guys really on the same page I think connection is our paths align our purpose is align so for us to align we have to have a deeper understanding of where we're headed and can we head there together so so that's why I think though you may feel it or you may feel like you're feeling it you have to do your due diligence to dig deeper to find out okay is this just I got caught up on the surface or there is something real here yeah and I think once we ask enough questions because I think that's the other big problem we have this experience where we feel this chemistry we're so excited and now we're afraid to ask questions because we don't want to blow up the fantasy yes you know what I'm saying we're just like no no I want to keep believing this is great so let me not ask anything let me not run this person away let me not rock the boat but that's going to be what tells us if this is real or not yes I think you're I think you've hit on something there like we're so scared of losing someone that we're okay with not asking important questions and discovering important truths that actually define whether this relationship is going to last absolutely and that is ultimately going back to your point earlier that is ultimately you not being yourself right you're losing yourself scared that you're going to lose the other person so you're okay with not being yourself do you think it's ever okay this is a funny question I think but I have to ask you because I think it's a healthy discussion do you think it's ever okay to present different sides of yourself in order to attract someone or do you think that you're ultimately setting yourself up for failure in a relationship almost like I think a lot of people they may not become someone completely different but I think a lot of people are like oh I'm gonna show my smart side because it will attract this person or I'm gonna show my this side because they're like that are you saying any of that kind of molding is unhealthy or do you think there's room for that I think anything that is not sustainable is unhealthy so look at it as if I'm a man and I'm meeting this woman I want to impress her so I'm like okay I'm gonna try to spend all my money take a nice five-star restaurant all these things but deep inside I prefer a more simple lifestyle you know I don't like all that extra stuff okay that's horrible that's a sale for disaster that's unhealthy because you can't sustain what you're presenting to that individual that's gonna draw them in so whatever it is another like common example is you'll have women who love to communicate they want to be able to talk to you every single day but because they're afraid of coming off a certain kind of way they'll hold back on their communication so now they'll make it seem like they're okay with talking every now and then we don't always have to text and then this guy falls for that he falls for this low standard I won't call low standard but not having such a high expectation of him when it comes to communication then he finally gets with the woman her true self is going to come out at some point no one can suppress their true self forever it comes out and now it's like what is this I did not sign up for this now we're fighting now we're stressed because you want him to call you more he was used to you not being worried about it so much that's why it's going to always not work out so it's extremely unhealthy unless we're presenting a side of us that is truly us and we can sustain it you've hit on something again that that at the beginning of relationships we often display unrealistic standards and we set those yes and then when things shift and now you're back in reality again the other person's like but wait a minute I thought you were really into me and I even went through that with my wife when we first met I was able to spend pretty much every day with her because I didn't have a job and so I was looking for work I was applying I would go see her at her College every day and I would spend the day with her and I'd be in the library applying for jobs while she was studying yeah and I could see it every day and I think I saw every day potentially for like six months maybe every single day five days a week at least and then when I got a job that wasn't the case anymore because I was at work now and I'd set this unrealistic expectation that we could see each other all the time and even in the beginning I would see her all the time because I'd spend time with her family but we wouldn't spend time with my family because I hadn't told my family yet and so now that my family knew we were trying to split the time and all of a sudden it was like wait a minute we used to spend time at my house and so even in little things like that it took a bit of adapting because I'd set a false standard in our relationship and then thankfully my wife was adapting and she understood and she got it and it was fine but I think for so many people you set unrealistic expectations in who you are yes and that's hard to come back from absolutely yeah and that's why it's so important for us to know who we are so that we can present the real from the jump you know because again A lot of times people you know this idea that we're always changing yes I do think we're always evolving but some of the big shifts that you see are is not because that's just the way life is it's because you did take the time to figure yourself out first and then you got with this person and now you want them to adjust now thank God for you she was able to adjust but there's a lot of people that they can't handle that yeah and now everything falls apart from there so that's why yeah we have to be very careful with what we're presenting from the beginning yeah it's I I agree with you on that that we think people change but actually they just start to understand themselves exactly they went from being completely unconscious about who they were you met an unconscious version of a person yeah and now you think they're changing but they just became conscious of who they are absolutely and but the thing is Stefan as you know like Society doesn't encourage that time of getting to know yourself right when you're young you're not trained in how to think about who you want to be you're trained in thinking about what you want to I do it's about your job it's about your career you're not thinking about who you are as a human being or as a person so how do we in this Society where understanding who you are is not clear it's not encouraged where where does one start or where have you kind of found great insights in trying to discover who we are I would love to see more parents encouraging their children to explore how they're feeling about who they are like what I have found is a lot of people who let's say I I had one client where she wanted to be an actress when she was a little kid uh but parents kind of push in a different direction now she's like a social worker but her desire is still to be an actress like the things that they they wanted to do they they want to do as an adult now you can find back in their childhood in a lot of cases so I feel like too many people have stifled their children's growth in certain areas with limited ideas of well this can't make money or this wouldn't be a good look for the family or whatever the case may be it's like no let them walk in it and see for themselves if that's really where they belong outside of that for me I think the big thing is getting in tune spiritually I'm just a huge believer in that I feel like me finding myself was when I went into what I call my Wilderness period I kind of just shut everything off that I was doing because I used to be all over having fun partying all these different things things and then God kind of slapped me upside my head and I had to like really pull away from everything and go deeper from within and it felt like a process of breaking me down to build me right back up and that's when I start to see things clearer because what I realized is the world is filled with distractions and it's the distractions why we can't see ourselves for who we really are if we simply shut off the distractions long enough you will learn a lot so even if someone just took a year off don't worry you know limit the TV you're watching limit the music you're listening to limit all the internet stuff just really go deeper within yourself spend more time alone spend more time you know thinking and processing you will learn a lot because again a lot of it is it isn't a problem of we don't know ourselves we are not aware and we're not willing to accept and once we allow ourselves to do those two things become aware and then accept it we become free yeah I I mean I agree with you I think that I've always been a big proponent of solitude to understand who you are because as soon as you have another person you now have another person's opinions you have to filter yes as soon as you have another person in front of you you have another person's judgments to filter and so now you can't even say what you truly think about something because you're constantly thinking what does that person think about me and my beliefs and so understanding your beliefs in solitude allows you to be really clear about what your values and beliefs are and and that's what it's there for I think when people get into if we switch to compatibility again the idea we talked about the difference between connection and chemistry but compatibility is really interesting because a lot of people believe that relationships should be hard and they require hard work and a lot of people believe relationships should be easy and everything should just flow where have you kind of discovered your lens on that Spectrum so okay there's a there's a couple ways to look at it I think that most relationships and I'll even be more specific most relations that involve connection and true love are typically hard not because relationships have to be hard but because most people have been hurt by something in their life are holding on to past traumas haven't resolved it once they meet this individual that they feel so strongly about it is scary this is where things get difficult it's the difficultness in how do I handle this how do I manage this you'll have people feel like they're losing themselves but they're not losing themselves their true self is coming out and it's it's the self that's been hiding behind that wall they've been using for quote-unquote protection but I always say the same module to protect you the same as blocking your blessings so now they're being pulled from behind it it's it's makes them feel some kind of way and again people start to mishandle things you also have situations where people are getting bad advice like I'm gonna give one example um there's this uh book called The Game by Neil Strauss I don't know if you ever read that book yeah it was great Neil you know you you answer that world to pick up artistry we learned it and he was great with the women but then once he found that woman that he fell in love with all that stuff doesn't work anymore so you have a lot of men being taught how to handle women in general but they don't understand that's not how you handle the woman you truly love and so now again you have individuals who though they are truly in love with this person they constantly mishandle it with bad Guidance with fear and all these things this is what makes it hard and and I even think that a lot of times the people who are supposed to be together sometimes will have the hardest time getting together but I believe that once we're able to conquer that part of it and actually come together it's not hard yes it takes work I believe we have to be conscious and mindful of how we treat our partners how we show up being willing to listen but I think it's so much easier to do those things with someone you have a connection with and you're truly in love with it's gonna always feel ten times harder when you're in the wrong relationship and I would argue the vast majority of people are in the wrong relationship that's why they're seeing it be so difficult and when you see this whole it's easy typically it's easy because you have two people who are not digging deeper they're they're trying to write out that chemistry we talked about earlier for as long as possible all right so yeah it seems like it's great it's easy no issues but it doesn't really work like that because they're just not facing the reality of the situation so I think we we have to understand that there is going to be some bumps in the road because of all the things that people have been through but once we're able to come together and we know this is our partner this is who we want to share our life with it can get so much better yeah and do you do you think that people have just been given generally the wrong education on how to deal with another person in their life 100 yeah because unfortunately a lot of individuals are giving advice from a bit or hurt place there and and they're trying to disguise it as I'm just looking out for you no you you have inhaled and you cannot properly guide them in a positive and loving Manner and I think that a lot of people you know I always say it's funny how we'll spend a lot of time getting educated for the for the sake of our careers and business but we don't do the same for relationships and yet relationships arguably are even more important than that career business and even if it's not a romantic relationship just relationships in general your ability to coexist with others connect with others is extremely important if you want that business to succeed you have to learn how to establish business relationships there's no way around it so we have to learn how to talk to people listen to people you know what I'm saying and just make make things work when we come together with other individuals so I definitely think that we're just lacking in a lot of education and again too many because there's so many voices on the internet now there's just so much bad advice being given and and the individuals giving it they may be giving like let's say 80 of the advice is accurate but it's that 20 that's completely off that can derail everything and that's the stuff that people are gravitating to and this is causing a lot of problems can you give us some example of some of the like not specific people or anything like that I just mean like could you give example of bad advice and what about it is bad or unhealthy for people to try and put into practice okay so one thing I heard recently was an individual told uh said some of the best advice you can give to men is to not fall in love you know basically just find a woman you want to be with and kind of keep it there the reason why I view that as horrible advice is because you sit down with any man who's lived enough life they will all be able to say there's been at least one time they fail deeply for a woman all right the problem isn't falling deep before a woman the problem is we don't know how to handle it once we get there the problem is because we're not accustomed to handling and processing our emotions a certain kind of way and being this vulnerable we don't understand what's going to be required of us in that moment we also kind of lose sight of because I'm a big believer in masculine and feminine energy and I believe that if she was attracted to you because of that masculine energy that you give off and now you become this emotional wreck because you don't know how to handle all these feelings you have for her well you start to become less attractive to her and it's not that it's not fixable it's fixable but again a lack of understanding and awareness derails the situation so rather than telling men don't fall in love because it's inevitable let's teach them how we walk in love how we make what I call Loving in your masculine how you maintain that energy and still be able to pour into that woman in a way that allows relationship to flourish yeah and how does that work when I think obviously a lot of people in that example that you're giving if if the person is attracted to someone because of their masculine energy but at the same time they want them to be empathetic and compassionate and kind which are generally seen as more feminine energy how does that person balance the two or is that is that not how you're explaining is that no it's about balance so we have to understand we all have masculine and feminine of course within us I'm a Believer in one must be your dominant energy the other is the one you tap into when necessary so as a man you can walk in your masculine and in those moments tap into those things but you can't just stay there all the time all right you can't just become this needy emotional God that's not going to work in the vast majority of cases and so what happens is there's this messaging that's being thrown out there that women don't like good guys I don't believe that's what it is I believe that women become less attracted when you don't know how to exude and walk in your masculine energy it's and and we're hiding behind the label of good guy you can be a good guy and still exude masculine energy and that's the thing and we also think that oh they like bad boys no if you look deeper it's really the masculine energy that that quote-unquote bad boy exudes but what they desire is a mixture of both the same way that we would want a mixture of both we would want a loving sweet woman family woman whatever or and if you're a guy who wants a mask and woman cool but you don't want her to be just that you know you want her to have the ability to tap into that other side when necessary I think we all desire that balance in our partner and I think it's healthy and if we just learn how to maintain it and how to nurture it we would see greater success in relationships yeah what are some of the skills with with mastering that energy that you think we're missing out on and balancing that energy and knowing when to be which and because the reason why it's hard is I think we live in a binary world right like you feel like you have to choose like you're either a bad boy or you're a good girl you are a doer or you're a thinker you're uh winner or you're a loser right like we think like that and some people go okay you need to be masculine or I can be feminine and I I definitely relate to what you were saying like I believe that there is a lot about me that is massively masculine in energy using that language and terminology my drive my ambition how I work my strategic mind and at the same time I consider myself to have a lot of great feminine energy and qualities where it comes to like empowering others and nurturing and the ability to hold deep compassionate space and be empathetic which are all powerful qualities for for everyone right Beyond gender they're powerful qualities and I appreciate and it's taken a long time to know when to be which and it's still and I still make mistakes right there's still sometimes like I should have been more assertive I should have been more affectionate so we live in a world that finds it hard to hold two opposing ideas at the same time yeah we don't know how to do that in any sphere of life let alone within ourselves so what are some of the skills that we can learn in order to nurture both those energies in a healthy way inside of ourselves so I think one it's going to require a lot of if you're already in a relationship it's going to boil down to a lot of transparency and communication you know her if you're that man trying to understand that woman and when you can walk in those two energies her being willing to be honest and open about you know what this was too much over here or I needed some of this over here and in time you're going to become more aware and understanding it's going to be like second nature to you you won't have to overthink it and I think part of it is not overthinking it it's kind of like being ourselves but understanding that we have to learn when this is doing too much and vice versa I also think that in reality for a lot of men especially uh when we're talking about relationships and kind of losing that masculine energy the the underlying issue is fear all right when we become so afraid of losing this woman we lose ourselves and so a lot of men now fall into this very feminine needy space because they're just afraid we have to learn that listen like to me I feel if your partner thinks you're never gonna walk away from them no matter what they do you've lost that's that's a horrible place to be in we have to get to a place where we both understand that as long as we show up the way that we need to show up for each other we have each other's back we will be here but neither of us will tolerate an unhealthy relationship and someone who blatantly does not want to work on making this better I would want my the woman I'm with to feel that way and I need to feel that way once we understand that and you have the confidence of I can walk away if I have to that shifts your energy right there in itself and now you don't find yourself falling into that place where again you start to look a lot more unattractive or for some men they become yes men in their relationships thinking that makes her happy that's turning her off she doesn't want you to be her yes man she wants you to stand up for yourself sometimes give your opinion give your perspective she wants to be able to you know if anything be able to have discussions with you about these things not just you say whatever you want whatever you want whatever you want over time it becomes a problem so I think that once we conquer that fear once we create a space where we can talk about these moments and not feel some kind of way I think sometimes men are not they struggle with taking the criticism from their partner men and women we we all do when we feel when we have actual feelings for someone you know we don't care about you it's not as big of a deal but we're emotionally invested we're more sensitive to it but we have to understand that these criticisms are for the sake of making things better and strengthening this relationship so once we can get to that place it's going to be so much easier to grow in it and then I think it's just a matter of understanding that it's this balance isn't just for your relationship so look at it like from a sports perspective if I'm on a basketball team there may be moments where I need to take the lead and recognize all right everyone else is down someone needs to step up this is my moment and then there's other moments where I realize okay let's say we already have a team captain let me show them that I can follow serve do what needs to be done so that the team can win it's just becoming aware of what the moment requires you know and again I think the more in tune we get the more in tune we get with ourselves and the more in tune we get with our partner the easier it becomes to find that balance that's the challenge right the challenge is just how much patience we have with ourselves and others to realize that you walked into an imbalance unbalanced situation and now it's like how much patience how much time are we going to give it to get to that because the challenge is I think we walk into a situation thinking it's perfect whereas we should be walking into a relationship knowing it's imperfect absolutely and we're going to learn and figure it out together and I think that's what sets us up for failure is because we walk into it going it's perfect and deep down we know it isn't but somehow we gloss over it whereas I find when I know we're gonna fight when I know we're gonna argue and I know there's going to be disagreements that sets me up to develop the skills I need in order to navigate those things yes but if I assume like oh we're never gonna fight and I always get that right we always meet someone who goes to I mean a friend who goes to me Jay we never fight I'm like how long have you been together because I don't I don't know anyone who never fights I get that no one has to get to like yeah the heights of fights yeah I did that I did that it doesn't have to be a heated fight but I don't know anyone who doesn't disagree there you go all right right I think that's important for people to understand yeah there's a difference yes you have some individuals out there that'll say arguing is normal it's healthy and to me it's like listen if we're talking about arguing where we're now Crossing disrespectful lines negative lines you know the way that we the tone we take with each other all these things that's not healthy yes it may happen you should be prepared for that but it does let's not normalize it just gonna keep doing this and it's it is what it is but you're right to to be with each other long enough and never have a disagreement that's extremely rare okay extremely rare and I do think that again as you mentioned we have to be ready for those moments we have to understand and going back to how we find that balance especially as men and even for women it's recognizing so for example if my partner is in a very heated moment let's say she's in her masculine right now all right she's getting rough well meeting her with more masculine is probably going to only make things worse yeah this is the time for me to be compassionate go to her hold her calm her down bring her peace in that moment you see because it we need to balance each other out same thing on the flip side if I'm all heated and I'm I'm extra passionate and then my woman now comes with that same energy that's it now where button has this is her moment to say no let me now be the one to soften the moment up bring that Sweetness in there and everybody calms down so it's learning how to feed off of each other and recognize okay they're over here let me bring it back over here and now we can work from that point and we're both good the problem is that we all see compassion and sweetness and kindness in those moments as a weakness we don't want to be that person because we see that as losing we see that as giving in we see that as us losing our power and strength in a relationship if we become the comforter or if we become the carer right like that's that's a perception that is the perception and we have to change that that is the power position so who is more powerful the person that lets the energy dictate them how they're going to react or the person that brings the energy and dictates how they're going to make this situation play out so if I'm coming in to calm it down and being all sweet because I'm trying to bring peace here I'm in the power position I'm not losing anything I'm gonna gain more peace and happiness and Harmony if I succeed in what I'm trying to do so we have to get out of that mindset of this makes us weaker and that is the big key of it that's a big problem that for a lot of women who struggle with their feminine energy that's a big issue where they feel that being feminine is weakness it's what got them taken advantage of and got them hurt but I always say it's not the feminine energy that's the problem it's who you give it to do they respect it did they honor it you know it's the same thing as a man does she respect your masculine if she doesn't then that might just be a sign you're with the wrong person but don't stop being that guy because the woman who's best for you is going to need that in those moments that that's exactly what it is is that when people have been their best selves for the wrong person that person brings out the worst in them yes right like when someone's been their best loving kindness self but someone took advantage of it that person now thinks next time I've got to be aggressive I've got to be you know powerful I've got to be strong in this way and I feel like that's kind of what most people are dealing with we know that is that you're just dealing with a wounded version of someone yes not a healed version of someone but I think people struggle to trust again and again especially when they see the same patterns in the person they're weird and I guess the question is why do we keep making the same mistakes because I feel like a lot of us keep dating the same people yeah and there's a part of us that also just keeps closing off or being more wounded it's almost like if you cut yourself you now walk around with your hand over that you don't want to get cut again and then if you lead it off and it gets cut even deeper now you're even more conscious of that and so I find that people are doing that where they're closing their heart more and more because it's been so misused and abused and I understand that I understand people don't want to be abused and misused but I guess the question is how do people find people that they know respect them so that they can be their best version or be a better version of themselves so you know you can't drive out Darkness with more Darkness you can't expose someone who's gonna hurt you by being someone who's closed off and holding back yourself we have it's kind of what we were just talking about we have to look at being vulnerable loving and open as not just well I'm setting myself to be hurt no it's how you expose people faster if I come with that energy and you cannot respect it match it then I know you don't belong here but if I hold back I give you a free pass to hold back so now we have two individuals who are hiding behind their walls because it's comfortable there but you can't really see what's what do we really have in front of us those walls are blinding you and you can't properly evaluate the situation so one we we got to get to a place of healing from our past so that we're not just walking around with the hand over the cut no you you gotta let the cup breathe you gotta let it heal all right holding on put your hand on there is delaying the process and like you said all that's gonna happen is when you finally take your hand off but you're taking it off with the wrong person and you haven't learned see what I want people to realize is your actions weren't the problem meaning you being loving sweet kind compassionate wasn't the problem it was the person separate those two things that you don't stop doing the good things now granted are there levels to this to where we have to learn again if I'm thinking about a man if you got so deeply emotional to where you kind of lost your your masculine energy and you became very needy okay you can say all right I need to continue to be loving but I know I have to learn how to draw a line I have to learn how not to cross that moment and again you only crossed it because you were unhealthy to begin with you only cross it because you were afraid to begin with once you get to that place where you're healthy and confident you won't find yourself Crossing that line anymore yeah you won't tolerate certain things anymore so we have to heal we have to be confident and we have to let our light shine so that we can expose what's in front of us easier that's a brilliant answer I I love the differentiation between how sharing your light is not the problem the person's the problem because we yeah we start to doubt whether being a good person a loving person is actually what wins in the world yeah and the truth is that it does win but it has to win with someone who can receive it and absolutely hold that space with you and share that space with you and I find that a lot of people keep giving that energy to the wrong person because we feel we can make them better right like there's this feeling of like I can change this person I can make them better I can heal them there's some of us want to fix people yeah and that means we assume the person we're with is broken and I think this is such a subconscious thing like if you're always critiquing if you're always picking at stuff with your partner chances are you don't think they're great like just now you think there's some issues with them when you think that you can fix them and they're broken tell us about that angle where now we're almost we've talked about being the loving and kind person but sometimes we're being the person that thinks we're loving and kind because we want to improve someone but that person doesn't want to improve one big problem is that what's really driving people to pick that individual is that by being the one that can upgrade you improve you I have more value here by having more value I have a false sense of security you have to appreciate me you're less likely to walk away you're less likely to cheat because you're lucky to have me I feel like I'm the prize here but those situations never really work because again you're choosing someone that is not capable of pouring into you the way you need you're basing this off of what you could do for them and that's not sustainable and you're choosing them because again you have more emotional control here what happens to so many people especially women it's something that I call the unhealthy love cycle of women where women in their first love experience outside of any childhood trauma may have experienced they're their most loving they're just out there they go all the way in but that typically happens at a younger age at an age where men are not mature enough to handle those kind of emotions that level of commitment so on and so forth so she gets hurt after she gets hurt her moment is saying to herself I will never let this happen to me again so now the woman starts to consciously or subconsciously choose men who are I don't want to say lower than hurt but essentially a man who does not take her there he's good enough to be with but I'm not that vulnerable with him he can't hurt me like that first love hurt me and so that Dynamic usually leads to picking that person I can fix I can make better who will appreciate and respect me but again it doesn't work out and many times you'll see these same situations the guy will move on to cheat on her not because and I have to say this because some women think yeah he's just being a man no not because he's a man but because you chose a man that you could never be the woman that he needed and he could never be the man that you needed once he kind of either gets what he needs from you to build himself up or the Smoke Clears from him being infatuated with you he starts to realize I'm not getting everything that I desire and now you building him up has brought him more attention from other women so now the the difference between what you're not giving him and what someone else is willing to give him becomes way clearer now the Temptation gets way stronger and he ends up doing something or she ends up cheating as well because he's safe but he doesn't fulfill her he doesn't satisfy her he he doesn't excite her in any kind of way and that's why I always said earlier like the safe choice is almost always the wrong choice but that is a function of people trying to choose these fix or uppers because they think it's going to give them some leverage there it's leverage that's it yeah it's leverage yeah how do you know when it's time to go like how do you know when it's like I feel like this is a common question where it's like how do you know when it's just I've tried everything we've tried together tried our best maybe we went to therapy maybe we got a coach or maybe you know maybe we didn't do those things how do I just know that I feel like I need to go but I'm scared of being alone yeah I'm I'm scared of dealing with the reality that I put in a lot of energy and I feel like you said this earlier but a lot of people stay in something for a lot longer than they should because they'd rather not be alone yes they'd rather not face reality they'd rather not lose two years of their life they'd rather lose two more thinking that this this should stay like how do you know when it's time to go let me first say this yes I think I think Society needs to change their thinking as far as Letting Go doesn't always mean it can't work out later it's just that it cannot work out under these circumstances all right because some people say well I feel like they're the one okay maybe they are but maybe the time is not right and it's letting go that will allow you both to do what needs to be done in your own personal lives that would allow you to come back together and have something way more amazing so that's number one thing to consider but outside of that it's when one if that person is unwilling to put in the work necessary it's time to go there's like so many times I'll I'll have a video go up about communication and someone will comment saying I've tried talking to him and he doesn't want to talk to me and in my head I'm like why are you still with them if he refuses to talk to you you've already tried there's nothing else to do but people will let it Linger on and continue why they can why they consistently complain or unhappy about this specific issue it's not gonna magically get better they're not gonna just change it just because all of a sudden they see oh it needs to change no if they're fighting it now they have no reason to change it and what people have to understand you know especially with this whole trying to fix people up healing and facing your traumas is one of the hardest things for people to do so if they already have you in their life they're essentially getting the incentive or the benefit of relationship without having to do the deeper work it's almost like if I'm at a job and the job says you need to have a master's degree to work here but we're going to hire you anyway and give you time to get that master's degree if getting that degree is super hard to you you're gonna drag that out as long as possible yeah you may never get the degree until they fire you when they fire you and you realize oh my gosh if I don't do this I'll never get this person back I'll never get this opportunity back now they might go and get it because it's very tough to walk down the path of the healing process so if they're not willing to work on it you guys have already discussed it and I think that's a big thing because there's a lot of relationships that end and the couples don't even know what the real issue was so the communication they'll say well we talked about no you guys argued you guys lashed out there wasn't a clear communication as to what the problem was what is expected how do we go about this if you've done that and I believe one of the most effective ways to do that is through a letter because I feel like verbal communication of deep issues and concerns they typically don't go well you know people get distracted they forget what they want to say the other person gets defensive they're not they're listening to rebuttal not to understand but when there's a letter involved it gives you time to get everything out you can you can evaluate your tone leave no stone unturned and now they have an opportunity to process it on their time to really take it in and then you guys can come together and discuss the letter and now it's so much easier to stay on point and get everything covered if we've done that and they're still unwilling or there's still no progress It's Time to Go yeah that's great that's great advice and I for me that's the biggest one it's like you can't make something last if only one person's working on it you can't keep hoping and waiting and wishing and and like you said that ending doesn't mean forever and often I found that two people need to grow individually to be able to grow collectively and we're forcing growing together so hard but we need space to grow and if you can't grow together chances are you need to grow apart in order to see whether you grow together again or grow for someone else and all of those options are okay but we put so much pressure on people to grow together that they grow apart yeah and actually if they chose to grow apart and grow separately they could come back together if they learn the lessons and I think that's a mistake too though sometimes people think I'm gonna go learn this lesson for this person I meet a lot of people they're like okay they broke up with me because I wasn't XYZ now I'm gonna go become XYZ to win them back yeah and I always find I'm just like well no you should go become XYZ if you think you were missing XYZ but not to win them back because you don't know what they're gonna do what's your take on people trying to win people back so I 100 agree with you like if we're trying to learn or grow it needs to be for the benefit of who we are and just whoever we deal with so was almost like if I was a bad Communicator in this relationship I shouldn't learn to better communicate for that person I need to better communicate for whoever I'm going to be with if you can't see it in that light then maybe you're looking at the wrong thing my thing is this I think it all depends on what the details of the situation was what led to the breakup what were you overlooking what was missing are these fixable issues because a lot of people are trying to win back someone where the issues are not resolved so it's like what's the point of going back we're just going to go in the same cycle all over again they're letting this idea of I miss them I don't want to be without them blind them from the fact that you two did not get along well or you two don't want the same things or YouTube just whatever it is maybe there's a lack of sexual satisfaction I don't know why I feel the need to mention that but it happens a lot of times you have to stay focused on what led to the end and can this be corrected if it can cool but as you mentioned listen correcting it does not guarantee you they're coming back and even if they will come back you don't know when they may need so you may have figured yourself out in six months they might need a year and I would argue if you guys are truly meant for each other and at the end of the year you need a year too you're just overlooking some things and you're rushing the process because you want to get back to them yeah it's I've never found a situation where it was truly only one person who had problems and the other person was squeaky clean no no you thought you were but you got some stuff too you needed to correct of course so I think we have to be honest with ourselves and just keep striving to be better and rather than focus on winning them back just become the best you because if you do and there's a true connection there the opportunity will present itself again and you too will be able to make something of it and the struggle is that when people finally make that decision to break up or let go the study showed that the parts of your brain that are activated in a breakup are the same as detoxing from cocaine right like you're literally trying to detox so you can have a craving yeah for someone that's bad for you yeah or also it says that the areas of the brain that are activated in a breakup are the areas that are the same with physical pain so if someone like punching the stomach the reason why we say like my heart feels broken is because it literally feels like something's broken yeah so when you're going through a breakup when you're feeling the craving to be with that person again studies show that eight over eighty percent of people are looking at what their exes are doing on social media right probably through a Finster account or whatever but you have to you have to know what are some of the healthiest tips that you've given to people and the people that you've worked with that have genuinely helped people move through a breaker the first thing is to ask yourself again why was I even there why am I holding on to this individual again I think sometimes we get so blinded by just the experience or our desire to have this person for whatever reason that we Overlook what was really missing or why this could not work anyway what you'll also find is and I'm sure there's probably a study on it where if you if they broke up with you you ever see a situation it happens on TV a lot where the person could be like okay I'm gonna break up with my partner they're planning on it they've been practicing in their head right it took them a couple weeks to muster up the strength they're about to do it and then the partner breaks up with them yeah now it's oh my gosh I gotta get them back yeah so it's like you just forgot this whole time that was your plan yeah it just gave you the past to do it but now because we don't like to be the one being let go of now we're fighting hard to get it back yeah so we have to really not fall into these little traps that happen to us as human beings our brains just playing tricks on us or something where we confuse these emotions for oh my gosh I must really love them or even like you said you go into that detox and because you miss I always tell people no matter how bad the relationship was there's always good moments so if you're trying to break free you can't just let your brain focus on the good moments you have to remind yourself why this doesn't work but if you keep focusing on the good you start to make yourself think oh because I missed this good moment I must miss them and there's this quote that says sometimes you're not missing the person you're missing the feeling so you've got to be able to differentiate those two things so getting back to how we get over these breakups is recognizing why were we really there to begin with you know could this actually work the next thing is you know I'm a huge believer that a lot of times a breakup is a blessing in disguise even if there is a chance that you two can work together or this is the one for you you may have needed this time to re-evaluate and get things in order something is obviously wrong even if you it may be something as deep as because I've seen situations where everything was going amazingly well on the surface and the person broke up with them let's say the woman lets go of the man so to the man that's really confusing but what it was is that that woman she had not healed from her past relationships and this relationship being so good was scaring her and what happens is the the better you are the scarier it becomes for her she's looking for something to be wrong she has to validate her fear somehow wow when she can't find it she'll either sabotage the relationship or she'll run from it So to that man it may seem like this is so unfair which yeah it sucks but if this woman didn't break up with you now you were inevitably gonna face this same ending but at a worse time yeah all right this is still best that is happening now at least if she can go do what she needs to do there's a chance for this to come back around later but it's hard for us to see it in the moment so I think just really we also have to focus on our healing whenever a breakup happens the mistake we make is that we think it's about healing from the breakup no it's healing from everything you've been through you've probably been sleeping under the rug your childhood trauma for years maybe the last two three relationships whatever it is so and and not healing from those things is contributing to your struggle to get past this breakup and contributing to why you even chose this person to begin with I'm a huge believer that if you haven't healed you are 90 likely to choose the wrong person yeah it's just too difficult to pick that person that you truly love and can truly love you and accept that level of vulnerability when you have still not resolved your past traumas and past hurts yeah so to me that's the next big thing is just focus on your healing process because in that process you will also be able to see more clearly if this is really for you or not like walking around unhealed is like walking around with broken glasses you you can't see straight no matter how hard you try but healing will clear up your vision really really fast and now it'd be like oh wait a minute I didn't belong there yeah you know thank God the broke breakup happened you know now I'm in a better place I move forward so to me I think and I would say in addition to those things is just have an accountability partner whether that's friend coach therapist someone that can help keep you in check help remind you what you need to do someone that you know you have to talk to and update what's going on so you feel like okay I don't want to come back so I'm saying I'm doing the same thing over and over again it doesn't guarantee success but it helps it helps move the needle some so I would highly encourage that that one mindset you spoke about that that changes everything and it hit me today I was just thinking if we were just able in a moment to recognize that something painful now was going to be good for us in five years time that would change so many things in our life yes but we're so poor at dealing with current pain yeah even if it means future joy that we just can't accept that I have to go through this like in everything right like knowing that someone breaking up with you just saved you 10 years of a wasted life is so much more than knowing you're gonna have to go through a few months of pain and 10 months of pain maybe it's a bit longer maybe it's two three years but we just have to get our head around that that sometimes the best things that happen to you are protecting more of your life than the pain that they're causing you need the Peace of knowing I did what I needed to do that's it yeah because anytime you feel like well maybe I could have done this but I could have done that leaves the door open for doubt do it well exactly so it's like and that's why I'm such a big believer in you know there's people who say well once they're done they're done they'll just move on and I'm like no no Express Yourself get everything off your chest because you don't need anything to linger and you questioning well what if I did this different no make sure speak your full piece and now you can say all right I did what I had to do it is what it is I move forward and I mean it makes it easier it may not make it a hundred percent you know not an issue whatsoever but it's gonna be easier and also also for me that's why like my relationship with God is so important because that's where I find my peace in dealing with a situation that doesn't work out the way I want to I always tell myself okay if this isn't working out God has something better for me you know if this is happening right now there's a purpose because I know if I followed his guidance throughout this process there's no need for me to question why is this the current outcome there's a reason for this and I've been through these things enough times to see as you mentioned the reward is going to come it may come next week it may come years from now it will come and I'll be able to see how it all connected yeah Stefan it's been incredible talking to you man this has been such a great back-to-back flowing conversation uh we end every on purpose episode with the final five which is like a rapid fire which means every question has to be answered with one word to one sentence maximum okay so here are your final five the first question is what's the best relationship advice you've ever received or heard or given it is to love fully lovefully and be yourself because as I said earlier that's how you will expose quicker who is for you and who isn't for you second question what is the worst relationship advice you've ever heard or received get under someone to get over someone [Laughter] uh question number three uh how would you defin	you not being worried about it so much that's why it's going to always not work out so it's extremely unhealthy unless we're presenting a side of us that is truly us and we can sustain it you've hit on something again that that at the beginning of relationships we often display unrealistic standards and we set those yes and then when things shift and now you're back in reality again the other person's like but wait a minute I thought you were really into me and I even went through that with my wife when we first met I was able to spend pretty much every day with her because I didn't have a job and so I was looking for work I was applying I would go see her at her College every day and I would spend the day with her and I'd be in the library applying for jobs while she was studying yeah and I could see it every day and I think I saw every day potentially for like six months maybe every single day five days a week at least and then when I got a job that wasn't the case anymore because I was at work now and I'd set this unrealistic expectation that we could see each other all the time and even in the beginning I would see her all the time because I'd spend time with her family but we wouldn't spend time with my family because I hadn't	-2	4	6	you not being worried about it so much that's why it's going to always not work out so it's extremely unhealthy unless we're presenting a side of us that is truly us and we can sustain it	you've hit on something again that that at the beginning of relationships we often display unrealistic standards and we set those yes and then when things shift and now you're back in reality again the other person's like but wait a minute I thought you were really into me and I even went through that with my wife when we first met I was able to spend pretty much every day with her because I didn't have a job and so I was looking for work I was applying I would go see her at her College every day and I would spend the day with her and I'd be in the library applying for jobs while she was studying yeah and I could see it every day and I think I saw every day potentially for like six months maybe every single day five days a week at least and then when I got a job that wasn't the case anymore because I was at work now and I'd set this unrealistic expectation that we could see each other all the time and even in the beginning I would see her all the time because I'd spend time with her family but we wouldn't spend time with my family because I hadn't	-5,-3,3	2,5,6	-5	-3	3	2	5	6
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPQBcb9wf8Q	4,056	mPQBcb9wf8Q	2023-03-27 00:00:00	you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you're wasting your time the best-selling author and host the number one Health and Wellness podcast on purpose with Jay Shetty what are the signs that someone deeply loves you because I feel like we live in this world where we're always wondering do they love me do they like me do they really like me are they really into me how do you know when you deeply love someone and when someone deeply loves you how do you even know so I'm gonna start with an answer that people probably won't expect to me the first key is do you truly love them because look at it like this to me a lot of people get caught up in infatuation um they have unhealthy attachments they have different motivations to why they decided this is the person that I want and that can make them feel like they're in love but to me true love flows both ways it's not a one-sided thing so when you can say I I'm not into them like that if we look deep into that situation I can almost guarantee what we'll find is infatuation attachment something else but when you can say no I feel it too I'm deeply in love with them I think that's your first key because without that nothing else matters because a lot of people are choosing Partners based off of what they love me so much so I assume it's safe here and this is a good choice to make but the safe choice is usually the wrong choice and a lot of these people select this individual thinking everything's going to be okay but because you're not really into them you can never be what they need and they were never truly what you needed which is why you never even got to that level with them so to choose them without first evaluating do you truly love them would not be wise yeah that's that's a great question and I think people struggle with that question too because I think we think of love as so many different things wrapped into one for example I could think I love someone because of how they treat me I could think I love someone because they have one quality that I really wish I had or I could love someone because I think that they're out of my league and they give me a bit of attention yeah and so what we think is love is so complex and so wide that we never stop to ask ourselves like what does love mean like what's the definition of love like how do I Define love so how do you define love and how do you encourage other people to create their definitions of Love well for me first off is always God is love and then when we take it from there love is about kindness compassion patience understanding a willingness to be selfless important to that individual but I think what's also important for people to understand is when we're trying to apply it to romantic relationships we have to understand that there's other ingredients that are necessary before we can move forward so you could love someone dearly but if they are not emotionally ready because maybe they haven't healed from their past maybe there's still some things that need to work out in their life then it wouldn't be time to move forward in a relationship with them and we have this bad habit of the minute we feel like there's love there we want to move forward exactly and as you mentioned we can get caught up sometimes in but we love them because of what they do for us but what are you prepared to do for them love is about giving all right so we have to ask ourselves okay do we know what their needs are are we willing to fulfill those needs because if not maybe this wasn't love maybe it just felt good in the moment maybe you got caught up in the hype and that's okay it happens to almost all of us if not all of us at some point in life but we have to just be real very clear with ourselves about what's really driving the intention right now but I think all those things I mentioned is what encompasses love of and that's like the foundation of it and then from there we have to look at some other things to see how we can move forward so many times like you you convince yourself something's love and what I find really interesting is that so many people fall in love too fast and no one wants to go for the slow patient understanding love which is what love requires you just said love is kind love is patient love is understanding those things take time I think those things take time to nurture and to to make sure that we're doing it correctly for each other so it's about learning each other's Love Languages and how we make it work in within that Dynamic I think also because so many people are not used to dealing with emotions at on that level being that vulnerable people mishandle it all right so it takes time for us to get to a place so we understand how to manage this and work through this however I think that I'm a huge believer in connection and I believe connection is like your spirit recognizing its match and it's very instant when you speak to couples who said they experience a connection they'll tell you first conversation first time meeting first date first week it was pretty fast so to me the the recognizing of something deeper being here can happen very quickly but how we now cultivate that and how we move forward is where we need to take our time and make sure we're not rushing and overlooking certain important issues that need to be discussed and addressed first to me it's the understanding of chemistry versus compatibility and the idea that there needs to be a spark there needs to be a connection that I feel with someone like you're saying on a deeper level but I find that I find that most people are not Adept and knowing whether the connection they feel with someone is deeper or physical yeah like I would say that it's easy to it you can often feel a spark with if you meet a lot of people you can feel a spot with a lot of people but that doesn't mean that they're the right person to build a relationship absolutely right yes so it's connection to me is a very rare occurrence right yes so I feel that people who've actually experienced it they can tell you maybe once in their life if you're lucky two times maybe all right but it's not this thing that happens with everybody whereas chemistry uh feeling of spark these things can happen with a lot of different people yeah so I do think there's there's this education that's needed to understand how we differentiate these things so that we don't confuse them because I see a lot of people take that chemistry and think oh this is it this is the one it's like but you had chemistry with the last five people why is this one the one and not them so I do think we have to be careful with that yeah I think so so we're on the same page there's three things there's connection on the deeper level there's chemistry which is like the spark on a more superficial level and then there's compatibility which is like what makes get lost and I can relate to that with my wife I definitely felt so I I'm one of those people who I kind of knew from the first few moments when I met my wife before she was my wife was like I was like yeah this is my person like I felt that way yeah for sure I felt that connection and there was chemistry there too but it had to be turned into compatibility in order to create a long lasting relationship we've been together for 10 years we're still learning building going through everything but that was a big part of it so that I can get behind is do you see it that way too or is there something different in so how do you see it believe it or not I used to make compatibility the least important but that was because I was looking at it the wrong way once I kind of looked at the definition again and compatibility is about two people coexisting in harmony yeah then I was like okay no you you have to have that I just I got caught up more so in like let's say a dating site says okay we're gonna decide who's compatible so I view compatible as like an on the paper it looks good it's supposed to match but you can have a lot of people who are supposed to be compatible and it doesn't work absolutely so I think that it's compatibility is that add-on once we have the connection and the chemistry now we have to create that Harmony which is the compatibility yes I agree with you and and it is interesting how that word compatibility is thrown around and you're so right that compatibility on paper doesn't mean compatibility in real life exactly and to me compatibility really has another word inside of it which is like adaptability and that deeper understanding of an individual where you know how much you're willing to adapt around certain parts of the relationship but we'll get to that I think a lot of people like you know and and that's where we got into this conversation around what is slow a lot of people are waiting to feel like is this person wasting my time are they the one and so they don't have a deeper connection maybe they had that spark of chemistry and now that's kind of subsided how do you know if someone's wasting your time how do you know if you're letting yourself be used or wasted in that way so to me again I think it always starts with self and you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you because just use an example let's say you're a woman and the only reason why you're holding on to this guy is because he's a nice guy you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you figure let me try to make it work you're wasting your time this is where you're setting yourself up for disaster every single time so if it's not born out of a true connection love a genuine desire you really like this individual of course there's always things we have to work through but is the foundation strong enough for us to say okay we can make something special here and I think once we are honest with ourselves that kind of helps answer the question because sometimes we get so caught up trying to animal lies the other individual that is like we get in our heads and now we're missing the mark on what's really important here and we can't always say for sure what's going on with them I will say that in general if this person isn't willing to talk about things they're wasting your time if they're not willing to address or correct things that have been talked about they're wasting your time if you guys aren't on the same page about what you want and where you want to go in life wasting time so there are some things I think we can just look at and say listen this is pointless here but a lot of times and I have to say this especially for women women's intuition is extremely powerful I'm a huge believer in it and I feel like women know very early this isn't it but they rationalize reasons to convince themselves to give this man a chance and this again is a waste of time because it just doesn't work I've seen people turn what should have been maybe a couple weeks of dating into years of being married to someone they were not happy with all because they did not listen to themselves from the beginning they knew what it was but they just could not accept it for what it was yeah and I love that point on intuition it's almost like when a relationship finally ends a lot of us think to ourselves I knew they weren't right yeah like I knew it I knew that they weren't the one but you just didn't listen to that part of yourself yes so so let's break it down for people let's help people out we started talking about three very important words connection which you defined chemistry which we've defined in compatibility which we've defined how do people know the difference between connection and chemistry when they meet someone because I find that the science shows that you're experiencing dopamine and cortisol at the same times you're experiencing the reward chemical and stress chemical at the same time which gives you that chemistry feeling which is the feeling of butterflies in your stomach or like do they like me are they into me what should I wear that kind of feeling but then you're talking about a deeper connection how do you hear the difference because I think a lot of us just get swept up in the feeling of I'm So Into that person they're so into me how do you know so I think one is are you even being yourself or can you be yourself with this individual if if you're presenting your representative then this is not a real connection this is them falling for that person that you're presenting but that's not real so to me you have you should be already being yourself but with that person you have a connection with it's a more natural flow we don't have to force it we just feel so much more comfortable around them I think in addition to that is when you when you find yourself all caught up in the moment and caught up in that chemistry again you have to ask yourself what am I really attaching myself to what about what do I really like about this individual what I find is that when it's really about chemistry we're still on the surface you don't really know about them yet you just know you guys had a good time maybe you had fun at this event you guys were able to talk about a lot of different things which is great which is gonna also be important if there is a connection however do you even know what college did they want do you know what kind of Life they want to live you know are you guys really on the same page I think connection is our paths align our purpose is align so for us to align we have to have a deeper understanding of where we're headed and can we head there together so so that's why I think though you may feel it or you may feel like you're feeling it you have to do your due diligence to dig deeper to find out okay is this just I got caught up on the surface or there is something real here yeah and I think once we ask enough questions because I think that's the other big problem we have this experience where we feel this chemistry we're so excited and now we're afraid to ask questions because we don't want to blow up the fantasy yes you know what I'm saying we're just like no no I want to keep believing this is great so let me not ask anything let me not run this person away let me not rock the boat but that's going to be what tells us if this is real or not yes I think you're I think you've hit on something there like we're so scared of losing someone that we're okay with not asking important questions and discovering important truths that actually define whether this relationship is going to last absolutely and that is ultimately going back to your point earlier that is ultimately you not being yourself right you're losing yourself scared that you're going to lose the other person so you're okay with not being yourself do you think it's ever okay this is a funny question I think but I have to ask you because I think it's a healthy discussion do you think it's ever okay to present different sides of yourself in order to attract someone or do you think that you're ultimately setting yourself up for failure in a relationship almost like I think a lot of people they may not become someone completely different but I think a lot of people are like oh I'm gonna show my smart side because it will attract this person or I'm gonna show my this side because they're like that are you saying any of that kind of molding is unhealthy or do you think there's room for that I think anything that is not sustainable is unhealthy so look at it as if I'm a man and I'm meeting this woman I want to impress her so I'm like okay I'm gonna try to spend all my money take a nice five-star restaurant all these things but deep inside I prefer a more simple lifestyle you know I don't like all that extra stuff okay that's horrible that's a sale for disaster that's unhealthy because you can't sustain what you're presenting to that individual that's gonna draw them in so whatever it is another like common example is you'll have women who love to communicate they want to be able to talk to you every single day but because they're afraid of coming off a certain kind of way they'll hold back on their communication so now they'll make it seem like they're okay with talking every now and then we don't always have to text and then this guy falls for that he falls for this low standard I won't call low standard but not having such a high expectation of him when it comes to communication then he finally gets with the woman her true self is going to come out at some point no one can suppress their true self forever it comes out and now it's like what is this I did not sign up for this now we're fighting now we're stressed because you want him to call you more he was used to you not being worried about it so much that's why it's going to always not work out so it's extremely unhealthy unless we're presenting a side of us that is truly us and we can sustain it you've hit on something again that that at the beginning of relationships we often display unrealistic standards and we set those yes and then when things shift and now you're back in reality again the other person's like but wait a minute I thought you were really into me and I even went through that with my wife when we first met I was able to spend pretty much every day with her because I didn't have a job and so I was looking for work I was applying I would go see her at her College every day and I would spend the day with her and I'd be in the library applying for jobs while she was studying yeah and I could see it every day and I think I saw every day potentially for like six months maybe every single day five days a week at least and then when I got a job that wasn't the case anymore because I was at work now and I'd set this unrealistic expectation that we could see each other all the time and even in the beginning I would see her all the time because I'd spend time with her family but we wouldn't spend time with my family because I hadn't told my family yet and so now that my family knew we were trying to split the time and all of a sudden it was like wait a minute we used to spend time at my house and so even in little things like that it took a bit of adapting because I'd set a false standard in our relationship and then thankfully my wife was adapting and she understood and she got it and it was fine but I think for so many people you set unrealistic expectations in who you are yes and that's hard to come back from absolutely yeah and that's why it's so important for us to know who we are so that we can present the real from the jump you know because again A lot of times people you know this idea that we're always changing yes I do think we're always evolving but some of the big shifts that you see are is not because that's just the way life is it's because you did take the time to figure yourself out first and then you got with this person and now you want them to adjust now thank God for you she was able to adjust but there's a lot of people that they can't handle that yeah and now everything falls apart from there so that's why yeah we have to be very careful with what we're presenting from the beginning yeah it's I I agree with you on that that we think people change but actually they just start to understand themselves exactly they went from being completely unconscious about who they were you met an unconscious version of a person yeah and now you think they're changing but they just became conscious of who they are absolutely and but the thing is Stefan as you know like Society doesn't encourage that time of getting to know yourself right when you're young you're not trained in how to think about who you want to be you're trained in thinking about what you want to I do it's about your job it's about your career you're not thinking about who you are as a human being or as a person so how do we in this Society where understanding who you are is not clear it's not encouraged where where does one start or where have you kind of found great insights in trying to discover who we are I would love to see more parents encouraging their children to explore how they're feeling about who they are like what I have found is a lot of people who let's say I I had one client where she wanted to be an actress when she was a little kid uh but parents kind of push in a different direction now she's like a social worker but her desire is still to be an actress like the things that they they wanted to do they they want to do as an adult now you can find back in their childhood in a lot of cases so I feel like too many people have stifled their children's growth in certain areas with limited ideas of well this can't make money or this wouldn't be a good look for the family or whatever the case may be it's like no let them walk in it and see for themselves if that's really where they belong outside of that for me I think the big thing is getting in tune spiritually I'm just a huge believer in that I feel like me finding myself was when I went into what I call my Wilderness period I kind of just shut everything off that I was doing because I used to be all over having fun partying all these different things things and then God kind of slapped me upside my head and I had to like really pull away from everything and go deeper from within and it felt like a process of breaking me down to build me right back up and that's when I start to see things clearer because what I realized is the world is filled with distractions and it's the distractions why we can't see ourselves for who we really are if we simply shut off the distractions long enough you will learn a lot so even if someone just took a year off don't worry you know limit the TV you're watching limit the music you're listening to limit all the internet stuff just really go deeper within yourself spend more time alone spend more time you know thinking and processing you will learn a lot because again a lot of it is it isn't a problem of we don't know ourselves we are not aware and we're not willing to accept and once we allow ourselves to do those two things become aware and then accept it we become free yeah I I mean I agree with you I think that I've always been a big proponent of solitude to understand who you are because as soon as you have another person you now have another person's opinions you have to filter yes as soon as you have another person in front of you you have another person's judgments to filter and so now you can't even say what you truly think about something because you're constantly thinking what does that person think about me and my beliefs and so understanding your beliefs in solitude allows you to be really clear about what your values and beliefs are and and that's what it's there for I think when people get into if we switch to compatibility again the idea we talked about the difference between connection and chemistry but compatibility is really interesting because a lot of people believe that relationships should be hard and they require hard work and a lot of people believe relationships should be easy and everything should just flow where have you kind of discovered your lens on that Spectrum so okay there's a there's a couple ways to look at it I think that most relationships and I'll even be more specific most relations that involve connection and true love are typically hard not because relationships have to be hard but because most people have been hurt by something in their life are holding on to past traumas haven't resolved it once they meet this individual that they feel so strongly about it is scary this is where things get difficult it's the difficultness in how do I handle this how do I manage this you'll have people feel like they're losing themselves but they're not losing themselves their true self is coming out and it's it's the self that's been hiding behind that wall they've been using for quote-unquote protection but I always say the same module to protect you the same as blocking your blessings so now they're being pulled from behind it it's it's makes them feel some kind of way and again people start to mishandle things you also have situations where people are getting bad advice like I'm gonna give one example um there's this uh book called The Game by Neil Strauss I don't know if you ever read that book yeah it was great Neil you know you you answer that world to pick up artistry we learned it and he was great with the women but then once he found that woman that he fell in love with all that stuff doesn't work anymore so you have a lot of men being taught how to handle women in general but they don't understand that's not how you handle the woman you truly love and so now again you have individuals who though they are truly in love with this person they constantly mishandle it with bad Guidance with fear and all these things this is what makes it hard and and I even think that a lot of times the people who are supposed to be together sometimes will have the hardest time getting together but I believe that once we're able to conquer that part of it and actually come together it's not hard yes it takes work I believe we have to be conscious and mindful of how we treat our partners how we show up being willing to listen but I think it's so much easier to do those things with someone you have a connection with and you're truly in love with it's gonna always feel ten times harder when you're in the wrong relationship and I would argue the vast majority of people are in the wrong relationship that's why they're seeing it be so difficult and when you see this whole it's easy typically it's easy because you have two people who are not digging deeper they're they're trying to write out that chemistry we talked about earlier for as long as possible all right so yeah it seems like it's great it's easy no issues but it doesn't really work like that because they're just not facing the reality of the situation so I think we we have to understand that there is going to be some bumps in the road because of all the things that people have been through but once we're able to come together and we know this is our partner this is who we want to share our life with it can get so much better yeah and do you do you think that people have just been given generally the wrong education on how to deal with another person in their life 100 yeah because unfortunately a lot of individuals are giving advice from a bit or hurt place there and and they're trying to disguise it as I'm just looking out for you no you you have inhaled and you cannot properly guide them in a positive and loving Manner and I think that a lot of people you know I always say it's funny how we'll spend a lot of time getting educated for the for the sake of our careers and business but we don't do the same for relationships and yet relationships arguably are even more important than that career business and even if it's not a romantic relationship just relationships in general your ability to coexist with others connect with others is extremely important if you want that business to succeed you have to learn how to establish business relationships there's no way around it so we have to learn how to talk to people listen to people you know what I'm saying and just make make things work when we come together with other individuals so I definitely think that we're just lacking in a lot of education and again too many because there's so many voices on the internet now there's just so much bad advice being given and and the individuals giving it they may be giving like let's say 80 of the advice is accurate but it's that 20 that's completely off that can derail everything and that's the stuff that people are gravitating to and this is causing a lot of problems can you give us some example of some of the like not specific people or anything like that I just mean like could you give example of bad advice and what about it is bad or unhealthy for people to try and put into practice okay so one thing I heard recently was an individual told uh said some of the best advice you can give to men is to not fall in love you know basically just find a woman you want to be with and kind of keep it there the reason why I view that as horrible advice is because you sit down with any man who's lived enough life they will all be able to say there's been at least one time they fail deeply for a woman all right the problem isn't falling deep before a woman the problem is we don't know how to handle it once we get there the problem is because we're not accustomed to handling and processing our emotions a certain kind of way and being this vulnerable we don't understand what's going to be required of us in that moment we also kind of lose sight of because I'm a big believer in masculine and feminine energy and I believe that if she was attracted to you because of that masculine energy that you give off and now you become this emotional wreck because you don't know how to handle all these feelings you have for her well you start to become less attractive to her and it's not that it's not fixable it's fixable but again a lack of understanding and awareness derails the situation so rather than telling men don't fall in love because it's inevitable let's teach them how we walk in love how we make what I call Loving in your masculine how you maintain that energy and still be able to pour into that woman in a way that allows relationship to flourish yeah and how does that work when I think obviously a lot of people in that example that you're giving if if the person is attracted to someone because of their masculine energy but at the same time they want them to be empathetic and compassionate and kind which are generally seen as more feminine energy how does that person balance the two or is that is that not how you're explaining is that no it's about balance so we have to understand we all have masculine and feminine of course within us I'm a Believer in one must be your dominant energy the other is the one you tap into when necessary so as a man you can walk in your masculine and in those moments tap into those things but you can't just stay there all the time all right you can't just become this needy emotional God that's not going to work in the vast majority of cases and so what happens is there's this messaging that's being thrown out there that women don't like good guys I don't believe that's what it is I believe that women become less attracted when you don't know how to exude and walk in your masculine energy it's and and we're hiding behind the label of good guy you can be a good guy and still exude masculine energy and that's the thing and we also think that oh they like bad boys no if you look deeper it's really the masculine energy that that quote-unquote bad boy exudes but what they desire is a mixture of both the same way that we would want a mixture of both we would want a loving sweet woman family woman whatever or and if you're a guy who wants a mask and woman cool but you don't want her to be just that you know you want her to have the ability to tap into that other side when necessary I think we all desire that balance in our partner and I think it's healthy and if we just learn how to maintain it and how to nurture it we would see greater success in relationships yeah what are some of the skills with with mastering that energy that you think we're missing out on and balancing that energy and knowing when to be which and because the reason why it's hard is I think we live in a binary world right like you feel like you have to choose like you're either a bad boy or you're a good girl you are a doer or you're a thinker you're uh winner or you're a loser right like we think like that and some people go okay you need to be masculine or I can be feminine and I I definitely relate to what you were saying like I believe that there is a lot about me that is massively masculine in energy using that language and terminology my drive my ambition how I work my strategic mind and at the same time I consider myself to have a lot of great feminine energy and qualities where it comes to like empowering others and nurturing and the ability to hold deep compassionate space and be empathetic which are all powerful qualities for for everyone right Beyond gender they're powerful qualities and I appreciate and it's taken a long time to know when to be which and it's still and I still make mistakes right there's still sometimes like I should have been more assertive I should have been more affectionate so we live in a world that finds it hard to hold two opposing ideas at the same time yeah we don't know how to do that in any sphere of life let alone within ourselves so what are some of the skills that we can learn in order to nurture both those energies in a healthy way inside of ourselves so I think one it's going to require a lot of if you're already in a relationship it's going to boil down to a lot of transparency and communication you know her if you're that man trying to understand that woman and when you can walk in those two energies her being willing to be honest and open about you know what this was too much over here or I needed some of this over here and in time you're going to become more aware and understanding it's going to be like second nature to you you won't have to overthink it and I think part of it is not overthinking it it's kind of like being ourselves but understanding that we have to learn when this is doing too much and vice versa I also think that in reality for a lot of men especially uh when we're talking about relationships and kind of losing that masculine energy the the underlying issue is fear all right when we become so afraid of losing this woman we lose ourselves and so a lot of men now fall into this very feminine needy space because they're just afraid we have to learn that listen like to me I feel if your partner thinks you're never gonna walk away from them no matter what they do you've lost that's that's a horrible place to be in we have to get to a place where we both understand that as long as we show up the way that we need to show up for each other we have each other's back we will be here but neither of us will tolerate an unhealthy relationship and someone who blatantly does not want to work on making this better I would want my the woman I'm with to feel that way and I need to feel that way once we understand that and you have the confidence of I can walk away if I have to that shifts your energy right there in itself and now you don't find yourself falling into that place where again you start to look a lot more unattractive or for some men they become yes men in their relationships thinking that makes her happy that's turning her off she doesn't want you to be her yes man she wants you to stand up for yourself sometimes give your opinion give your perspective she wants to be able to you know if anything be able to have discussions with you about these things not just you say whatever you want whatever you want whatever you want over time it becomes a problem so I think that once we conquer that fear once we create a space where we can talk about these moments and not feel some kind of way I think sometimes men are not they struggle with taking the criticism from their partner men and women we we all do when we feel when we have actual feelings for someone you know we don't care about you it's not as big of a deal but we're emotionally invested we're more sensitive to it but we have to understand that these criticisms are for the sake of making things better and strengthening this relationship so once we can get to that place it's going to be so much easier to grow in it and then I think it's just a matter of understanding that it's this balance isn't just for your relationship so look at it like from a sports perspective if I'm on a basketball team there may be moments where I need to take the lead and recognize all right everyone else is down someone needs to step up this is my moment and then there's other moments where I realize okay let's say we already have a team captain let me show them that I can follow serve do what needs to be done so that the team can win it's just becoming aware of what the moment requires you know and again I think the more in tune we get the more in tune we get with ourselves and the more in tune we get with our partner the easier it becomes to find that balance that's the challenge right the challenge is just how much patience we have with ourselves and others to realize that you walked into an imbalance unbalanced situation and now it's like how much patience how much time are we going to give it to get to that because the challenge is I think we walk into a situation thinking it's perfect whereas we should be walking into a relationship knowing it's imperfect absolutely and we're going to learn and figure it out together and I think that's what sets us up for failure is because we walk into it going it's perfect and deep down we know it isn't but somehow we gloss over it whereas I find when I know we're gonna fight when I know we're gonna argue and I know there's going to be disagreements that sets me up to develop the skills I need in order to navigate those things yes but if I assume like oh we're never gonna fight and I always get that right we always meet someone who goes to I mean a friend who goes to me Jay we never fight I'm like how long have you been together because I don't I don't know anyone who never fights I get that no one has to get to like yeah the heights of fights yeah I did that I did that it doesn't have to be a heated fight but I don't know anyone who doesn't disagree there you go all right right I think that's important for people to understand yeah there's a difference yes you have some individuals out there that'll say arguing is normal it's healthy and to me it's like listen if we're talking about arguing where we're now Crossing disrespectful lines negative lines you know the way that we the tone we take with each other all these things that's not healthy yes it may happen you should be prepared for that but it does let's not normalize it just gonna keep doing this and it's it is what it is but you're right to to be with each other long enough and never have a disagreement that's extremely rare okay extremely rare and I do think that again as you mentioned we have to be ready for those moments we have to understand and going back to how we find that balance especially as men and even for women it's recognizing so for example if my partner is in a very heated moment let's say she's in her masculine right now all right she's getting rough well meeting her with more masculine is probably going to only make things worse yeah this is the time for me to be compassionate go to her hold her calm her down bring her peace in that moment you see because it we need to balance each other out same thing on the flip side if I'm all heated and I'm I'm extra passionate and then my woman now comes with that same energy that's it now where button has this is her moment to say no let me now be the one to soften the moment up bring that Sweetness in there and everybody calms down so it's learning how to feed off of each other and recognize okay they're over here let me bring it back over here and now we can work from that point and we're both good the problem is that we all see compassion and sweetness and kindness in those moments as a weakness we don't want to be that person because we see that as losing we see that as giving in we see that as us losing our power and strength in a relationship if we become the comforter or if we become the carer right like that's that's a perception that is the perception and we have to change that that is the power position so who is more powerful the person that lets the energy dictate them how they're going to react or the person that brings the energy and dictates how they're going to make this situation play out so if I'm coming in to calm it down and being all sweet because I'm trying to bring peace here I'm in the power position I'm not losing anything I'm gonna gain more peace and happiness and Harmony if I succeed in what I'm trying to do so we have to get out of that mindset of this makes us weaker and that is the big key of it that's a big problem that for a lot of women who struggle with their feminine energy that's a big issue where they feel that being feminine is weakness it's what got them taken advantage of and got them hurt but I always say it's not the feminine energy that's the problem it's who you give it to do they respect it did they honor it you know it's the same thing as a man does she respect your masculine if she doesn't then that might just be a sign you're with the wrong person but don't stop being that guy because the woman who's best for you is going to need that in those moments that that's exactly what it is is that when people have been their best selves for the wrong person that person brings out the worst in them yes right like when someone's been their best loving kindness self but someone took advantage of it that person now thinks next time I've got to be aggressive I've got to be you know powerful I've got to be strong in this way and I feel like that's kind of what most people are dealing with we know that is that you're just dealing with a wounded version of someone yes not a healed version of someone but I think people struggle to trust again and again especially when they see the same patterns in the person they're weird and I guess the question is why do we keep making the same mistakes because I feel like a lot of us keep dating the same people yeah and there's a part of us that also just keeps closing off or being more wounded it's almost like if you cut yourself you now walk around with your hand over that you don't want to get cut again and then if you lead it off and it gets cut even deeper now you're even more conscious of that and so I find that people are doing that where they're closing their heart more and more because it's been so misused and abused and I understand that I understand people don't want to be abused and misused but I guess the question is how do people find people that they know respect them so that they can be their best version or be a better version of themselves so you know you can't drive out Darkness with more Darkness you can't expose someone who's gonna hurt you by being someone who's closed off and holding back yourself we have it's kind of what we were just talking about we have to look at being vulnerable loving and open as not just well I'm setting myself to be hurt no it's how you expose people faster if I come with that energy and you cannot respect it match it then I know you don't belong here but if I hold back I give you a free pass to hold back so now we have two individuals who are hiding behind their walls because it's comfortable there but you can't really see what's what do we really have in front of us those walls are blinding you and you can't properly evaluate the situation so one we we got to get to a place of healing from our past so that we're not just walking around with the hand over the cut no you you gotta let the cup breathe you gotta let it heal all right holding on put your hand on there is delaying the process and like you said all that's gonna happen is when you finally take your hand off but you're taking it off with the wrong person and you haven't learned see what I want people to realize is your actions weren't the problem meaning you being loving sweet kind compassionate wasn't the problem it was the person separate those two things that you don't stop doing the good things now granted are there levels to this to where we have to learn again if I'm thinking about a man if you got so deeply emotional to where you kind of lost your your masculine energy and you became very needy okay you can say all right I need to continue to be loving but I know I have to learn how to draw a line I have to learn how not to cross that moment and again you only crossed it because you were unhealthy to begin with you only cross it because you were afraid to begin with once you get to that place where you're healthy and confident you won't find yourself Crossing that line anymore yeah you won't tolerate certain things anymore so we have to heal we have to be confident and we have to let our light shine so that we can expose what's in front of us easier that's a brilliant answer I I love the differentiation between how sharing your light is not the problem the person's the problem because we yeah we start to doubt whether being a good person a loving person is actually what wins in the world yeah and the truth is that it does win but it has to win with someone who can receive it and absolutely hold that space with you and share that space with you and I find that a lot of people keep giving that energy to the wrong person because we feel we can make them better right like there's this feeling of like I can change this person I can make them better I can heal them there's some of us want to fix people yeah and that means we assume the person we're with is broken and I think this is such a subconscious thing like if you're always critiquing if you're always picking at stuff with your partner chances are you don't think they're great like just now you think there's some issues with them when you think that you can fix them and they're broken tell us about that angle where now we're almost we've talked about being the loving and kind person but sometimes we're being the person that thinks we're loving and kind because we want to improve someone but that person doesn't want to improve one big problem is that what's really driving people to pick that individual is that by being the one that can upgrade you improve you I have more value here by having more value I have a false sense of security you have to appreciate me you're less likely to walk away you're less likely to cheat because you're lucky to have me I feel like I'm the prize here but those situations never really work because again you're choosing someone that is not capable of pouring into you the way you need you're basing this off of what you could do for them and that's not sustainable and you're choosing them because again you have more emotional control here what happens to so many people especially women it's something that I call the unhealthy love cycle of women where women in their first love experience outside of any childhood trauma may have experienced they're their most loving they're just out there they go all the way in but that typically happens at a younger age at an age where men are not mature enough to handle those kind of emotions that level of commitment so on and so forth so she gets hurt after she gets hurt her moment is saying to herself I will never let this happen to me again so now the woman starts to consciously or subconsciously choose men who are I don't want to say lower than hurt but essentially a man who does not take her there he's good enough to be with but I'm not that vulnerable with him he can't hurt me like that first love hurt me and so that Dynamic usually leads to picking that person I can fix I can make better who will appreciate and respect me but again it doesn't work out and many times you'll see these same situations the guy will move on to cheat on her not because and I have to say this because some women think yeah he's just being a man no not because he's a man but because you chose a man that you could never be the woman that he needed and he could never be the man that you needed once he kind of either gets what he needs from you to build himself up or the Smoke Clears from him being infatuated with you he starts to realize I'm not getting everything that I desire and now you building him up has brought him more attention from other women so now the the difference between what you're not giving him and what someone else is willing to give him becomes way clearer now the Temptation gets way stronger and he ends up doing something or she ends up cheating as well because he's safe but he doesn't fulfill her he doesn't satisfy her he he doesn't excite her in any kind of way and that's why I always said earlier like the safe choice is almost always the wrong choice but that is a function of people trying to choose these fix or uppers because they think it's going to give them some leverage there it's leverage that's it yeah it's leverage yeah how do you know when it's time to go like how do you know when it's like I feel like this is a common question where it's like how do you know when it's just I've tried everything we've tried together tried our best maybe we went to therapy maybe we got a coach or maybe you know maybe we didn't do those things how do I just know that I feel like I need to go but I'm scared of being alone yeah I'm I'm scared of dealing with the reality that I put in a lot of energy and I feel like you said this earlier but a lot of people stay in something for a lot longer than they should because they'd rather not be alone yes they'd rather not face reality they'd rather not lose two years of their life they'd rather lose two more thinking that this this should stay like how do you know when it's time to go let me first say this yes I think I think Society needs to change their thinking as far as Letting Go doesn't always mean it can't work out later it's just that it cannot work out under these circumstances all right because some people say well I feel like they're the one okay maybe they are but maybe the time is not right and it's letting go that will allow you both to do what needs to be done in your own personal lives that would allow you to come back together and have something way more amazing so that's number one thing to consider but outside of that it's when one if that person is unwilling to put in the work necessary it's time to go there's like so many times I'll I'll have a video go up about communication and someone will comment saying I've tried talking to him and he doesn't want to talk to me and in my head I'm like why are you still with them if he refuses to talk to you you've already tried there's nothing else to do but people will let it Linger on and continue why they can why they consistently complain or unhappy about this specific issue it's not gonna magically get better they're not gonna just change it just because all of a sudden they see oh it needs to change no if they're fighting it now they have no reason to change it and what people have to understand you know especially with this whole trying to fix people up healing and facing your traumas is one of the hardest things for people to do so if they already have you in their life they're essentially getting the incentive or the benefit of relationship without having to do the deeper work it's almost like if I'm at a job and the job says you need to have a master's degree to work here but we're going to hire you anyway and give you time to get that master's degree if getting that degree is super hard to you you're gonna drag that out as long as possible yeah you may never get the degree until they fire you when they fire you and you realize oh my gosh if I don't do this I'll never get this person back I'll never get this opportunity back now they might go and get it because it's very tough to walk down the path of the healing process so if they're not willing to work on it you guys have already discussed it and I think that's a big thing because there's a lot of relationships that end and the couples don't even know what the real issue was so the communication they'll say well we talked about no you guys argued you guys lashed out there wasn't a clear communication as to what the problem was what is expected how do we go about this if you've done that and I believe one of the most effective ways to do that is through a letter because I feel like verbal communication of deep issues and concerns they typically don't go well you know people get distracted they forget what they want to say the other person gets defensive they're not they're listening to rebuttal not to understand but when there's a letter involved it gives you time to get everything out you can you can evaluate your tone leave no stone unturned and now they have an opportunity to process it on their time to really take it in and then you guys can come together and discuss the letter and now it's so much easier to stay on point and get everything covered if we've done that and they're still unwilling or there's still no progress It's Time to Go yeah that's great that's great advice and I for me that's the biggest one it's like you can't make something last if only one person's working on it you can't keep hoping and waiting and wishing and and like you said that ending doesn't mean forever and often I found that two people need to grow individually to be able to grow collectively and we're forcing growing together so hard but we need space to grow and if you can't grow together chances are you need to grow apart in order to see whether you grow together again or grow for someone else and all of those options are okay but we put so much pressure on people to grow together that they grow apart yeah and actually if they chose to grow apart and grow separately they could come back together if they learn the lessons and I think that's a mistake too though sometimes people think I'm gonna go learn this lesson for this person I meet a lot of people they're like okay they broke up with me because I wasn't XYZ now I'm gonna go become XYZ to win them back yeah and I always find I'm just like well no you should go become XYZ if you think you were missing XYZ but not to win them back because you don't know what they're gonna do what's your take on people trying to win people back so I 100 agree with you like if we're trying to learn or grow it needs to be for the benefit of who we are and just whoever we deal with so was almost like if I was a bad Communicator in this relationship I shouldn't learn to better communicate for that person I need to better communicate for whoever I'm going to be with if you can't see it in that light then maybe you're looking at the wrong thing my thing is this I think it all depends on what the details of the situation was what led to the breakup what were you overlooking what was missing are these fixable issues because a lot of people are trying to win back someone where the issues are not resolved so it's like what's the point of going back we're just going to go in the same cycle all over again they're letting this idea of I miss them I don't want to be without them blind them from the fact that you two did not get along well or you two don't want the same things or YouTube just whatever it is maybe there's a lack of sexual satisfaction I don't know why I feel the need to mention that but it happens a lot of times you have to stay focused on what led to the end and can this be corrected if it can cool but as you mentioned listen correcting it does not guarantee you they're coming back and even if they will come back you don't know when they may need so you may have figured yourself out in six months they might need a year and I would argue if you guys are truly meant for each other and at the end of the year you need a year too you're just overlooking some things and you're rushing the process because you want to get back to them yeah it's I've never found a situation where it was truly only one person who had problems and the other person was squeaky clean no no you thought you were but you got some stuff too you needed to correct of course so I think we have to be honest with ourselves and just keep striving to be better and rather than focus on winning them back just become the best you because if you do and there's a true connection there the opportunity will present itself again and you too will be able to make something of it and the struggle is that when people finally make that decision to break up or let go the study showed that the parts of your brain that are activated in a breakup are the same as detoxing from cocaine right like you're literally trying to detox so you can have a craving yeah for someone that's bad for you yeah or also it says that the areas of the brain that are activated in a breakup are the areas that are the same with physical pain so if someone like punching the stomach the reason why we say like my heart feels broken is because it literally feels like something's broken yeah so when you're going through a breakup when you're feeling the craving to be with that person again studies show that eight over eighty percent of people are looking at what their exes are doing on social media right probably through a Finster account or whatever but you have to you have to know what are some of the healthiest tips that you've given to people and the people that you've worked with that have genuinely helped people move through a breaker the first thing is to ask yourself again why was I even there why am I holding on to this individual again I think sometimes we get so blinded by just the experience or our desire to have this person for whatever reason that we Overlook what was really missing or why this could not work anyway what you'll also find is and I'm sure there's probably a study on it where if you if they broke up with you you ever see a situation it happens on TV a lot where the person could be like okay I'm gonna break up with my partner they're planning on it they've been practicing in their head right it took them a couple weeks to muster up the strength they're about to do it and then the partner breaks up with them yeah now it's oh my gosh I gotta get them back yeah so it's like you just forgot this whole time that was your plan yeah it just gave you the past to do it but now because we don't like to be the one being let go of now we're fighting hard to get it back yeah so we have to really not fall into these little traps that happen to us as human beings our brains just playing tricks on us or something where we confuse these emotions for oh my gosh I must really love them or even like you said you go into that detox and because you miss I always tell people no matter how bad the relationship was there's always good moments so if you're trying to break free you can't just let your brain focus on the good moments you have to remind yourself why this doesn't work but if you keep focusing on the good you start to make yourself think oh because I missed this good moment I must miss them and there's this quote that says sometimes you're not missing the person you're missing the feeling so you've got to be able to differentiate those two things so getting back to how we get over these breakups is recognizing why were we really there to begin with you know could this actually work the next thing is you know I'm a huge believer that a lot of times a breakup is a blessing in disguise even if there is a chance that you two can work together or this is the one for you you may have needed this time to re-evaluate and get things in order something is obviously wrong even if you it may be something as deep as because I've seen situations where everything was going amazingly well on the surface and the person broke up with them let's say the woman lets go of the man so to the man that's really confusing but what it was is that that woman she had not healed from her past relationships and this relationship being so good was scaring her and what happens is the the better you are the scarier it becomes for her she's looking for something to be wrong she has to validate her fear somehow wow when she can't find it she'll either sabotage the relationship or she'll run from it So to that man it may seem like this is so unfair which yeah it sucks but if this woman didn't break up with you now you were inevitably gonna face this same ending but at a worse time yeah all right this is still best that is happening now at least if she can go do what she needs to do there's a chance for this to come back around later but it's hard for us to see it in the moment so I think just really we also have to focus on our healing whenever a breakup happens the mistake we make is that we think it's about healing from the breakup no it's healing from everything you've been through you've probably been sleeping under the rug your childhood trauma for years maybe the last two three relationships whatever it is so and and not healing from those things is contributing to your struggle to get past this breakup and contributing to why you even chose this person to begin with I'm a huge believer that if you haven't healed you are 90 likely to choose the wrong person yeah it's just too difficult to pick that person that you truly love and can truly love you and accept that level of vulnerability when you have still not resolved your past traumas and past hurts yeah so to me that's the next big thing is just focus on your healing process because in that process you will also be able to see more clearly if this is really for you or not like walking around unhealed is like walking around with broken glasses you you can't see straight no matter how hard you try but healing will clear up your vision really really fast and now it'd be like oh wait a minute I didn't belong there yeah you know thank God the broke breakup happened you know now I'm in a better place I move forward so to me I think and I would say in addition to those things is just have an accountability partner whether that's friend coach therapist someone that can help keep you in check help remind you what you need to do someone that you know you have to talk to and update what's going on so you feel like okay I don't want to come back so I'm saying I'm doing the same thing over and over again it doesn't guarantee success but it helps it helps move the needle some so I would highly encourage that that one mindset you spoke about that that changes everything and it hit me today I was just thinking if we were just able in a moment to recognize that something painful now was going to be good for us in five years time that would change so many things in our life yes but we're so poor at dealing with current pain yeah even if it means future joy that we just can't accept that I have to go through this like in everything right like knowing that someone breaking up with you just saved you 10 years of a wasted life is so much more than knowing you're gonna have to go through a few months of pain and 10 months of pain maybe it's a bit longer maybe it's two three years but we just have to get our head around that that sometimes the best things that happen to you are protecting more of your life than the pain that they're causing you need the Peace of knowing I did what I needed to do that's it yeah because anytime you feel like well maybe I could have done this but I could have done that leaves the door open for doubt do it well exactly so it's like and that's why I'm such a big believer in you know there's people who say well once they're done they're done they'll just move on and I'm like no no Express Yourself get everything off your chest because you don't need anything to linger and you questioning well what if I did this different no make sure speak your full piece and now you can say all right I did what I had to do it is what it is I move forward and I mean it makes it easier it may not make it a hundred percent you know not an issue whatsoever but it's gonna be easier and also also for me that's why like my relationship with God is so important because that's where I find my peace in dealing with a situation that doesn't work out the way I want to I always tell myself okay if this isn't working out God has something better for me you know if this is happening right now there's a purpose because I know if I followed his guidance throughout this process there's no need for me to question why is this the current outcome there's a reason for this and I've been through these things enough times to see as you mentioned the reward is going to come it may come next week it may come years from now it will come and I'll be able to see how it all connected yeah Stefan it's been incredible talking to you man this has been such a great back-to-back flowing conversation uh we end every on purpose episode with the final five which is like a rapid fire which means every question has to be answered with one word to one sentence maximum okay so here are your final five the first question is what's the best relationship advice you've ever received or heard or given it is to love fully lovefully and be yourself because as I said earlier that's how you will expose quicker who is for you and who isn't for you second question what is the worst relationship advice you've ever heard or received get under someone to get over someone [Laughter] uh question number three uh how would you defin	told my family yet and so now that my family knew we were trying to split the time and all of a sudden it was like wait a minute we used to spend time at my house and so even in little things like that it took a bit of adapting because I'd set a false standard in our relationship and then thankfully my wife was adapting and she understood and she got it and it was fine but I think for so many people you set unrealistic expectations in who you are yes and that's hard to come back from absolutely yeah and that's why it's so important for us to know who we are so that we can present the real from the jump you know because again A lot of times people you know this idea that we're always changing yes I do think we're always evolving but some of the big shifts that you see are is not because that's just the way life is it's because you did take the time to figure yourself out first and then you got with this person and now you want them to adjust now thank God for you she was able to adjust but there's a lot of people that they can't handle that yeah and now everything falls apart from there so that's why yeah we have to be very careful with what we're presenting from the beginning yeah it's I I agree with you on that	6	4	8	told my family yet and so now that my family knew we were trying to split the time and all of a sudden it was like wait a minute we used to spend time at my house and so even in little things like that it took a bit of adapting because I'd set a false standard in our relationship and then thankfully my wife was adapting and she understood and she got it and it was fine but I think for so many people you set unrealistic expectations in who you are yes and that's hard to come back from absolutely yeah and that's why it's so important for us to know who we are so that we can present the real from the jump you know because again A lot of times people you know this idea that we're always changing yes I do think we're always evolving but some of the big shifts that you see are is not because that's just the way life is it's because you did take the time to figure yourself out first and then you got with this person and now you want them to adjust now thank God for you she was able to adjust but there's a lot of people that they can't handle that yeah and now everything falls apart from there so that's why yeah we have to be very careful with what we're presenting from the beginning yeah	I I agree with you on that	4,5,6	8,2,5	4	5	6	8	2	5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPQBcb9wf8Q	4,056	mPQBcb9wf8Q	2023-03-27 00:00:00	you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you're wasting your time the best-selling author and host the number one Health and Wellness podcast on purpose with Jay Shetty what are the signs that someone deeply loves you because I feel like we live in this world where we're always wondering do they love me do they like me do they really like me are they really into me how do you know when you deeply love someone and when someone deeply loves you how do you even know so I'm gonna start with an answer that people probably won't expect to me the first key is do you truly love them because look at it like this to me a lot of people get caught up in infatuation um they have unhealthy attachments they have different motivations to why they decided this is the person that I want and that can make them feel like they're in love but to me true love flows both ways it's not a one-sided thing so when you can say I I'm not into them like that if we look deep into that situation I can almost guarantee what we'll find is infatuation attachment something else but when you can say no I feel it too I'm deeply in love with them I think that's your first key because without that nothing else matters because a lot of people are choosing Partners based off of what they love me so much so I assume it's safe here and this is a good choice to make but the safe choice is usually the wrong choice and a lot of these people select this individual thinking everything's going to be okay but because you're not really into them you can never be what they need and they were never truly what you needed which is why you never even got to that level with them so to choose them without first evaluating do you truly love them would not be wise yeah that's that's a great question and I think people struggle with that question too because I think we think of love as so many different things wrapped into one for example I could think I love someone because of how they treat me I could think I love someone because they have one quality that I really wish I had or I could love someone because I think that they're out of my league and they give me a bit of attention yeah and so what we think is love is so complex and so wide that we never stop to ask ourselves like what does love mean like what's the definition of love like how do I Define love so how do you define love and how do you encourage other people to create their definitions of Love well for me first off is always God is love and then when we take it from there love is about kindness compassion patience understanding a willingness to be selfless important to that individual but I think what's also important for people to understand is when we're trying to apply it to romantic relationships we have to understand that there's other ingredients that are necessary before we can move forward so you could love someone dearly but if they are not emotionally ready because maybe they haven't healed from their past maybe there's still some things that need to work out in their life then it wouldn't be time to move forward in a relationship with them and we have this bad habit of the minute we feel like there's love there we want to move forward exactly and as you mentioned we can get caught up sometimes in but we love them because of what they do for us but what are you prepared to do for them love is about giving all right so we have to ask ourselves okay do we know what their needs are are we willing to fulfill those needs because if not maybe this wasn't love maybe it just felt good in the moment maybe you got caught up in the hype and that's okay it happens to almost all of us if not all of us at some point in life but we have to just be real very clear with ourselves about what's really driving the intention right now but I think all those things I mentioned is what encompasses love of and that's like the foundation of it and then from there we have to look at some other things to see how we can move forward so many times like you you convince yourself something's love and what I find really interesting is that so many people fall in love too fast and no one wants to go for the slow patient understanding love which is what love requires you just said love is kind love is patient love is understanding those things take time I think those things take time to nurture and to to make sure that we're doing it correctly for each other so it's about learning each other's Love Languages and how we make it work in within that Dynamic I think also because so many people are not used to dealing with emotions at on that level being that vulnerable people mishandle it all right so it takes time for us to get to a place so we understand how to manage this and work through this however I think that I'm a huge believer in connection and I believe connection is like your spirit recognizing its match and it's very instant when you speak to couples who said they experience a connection they'll tell you first conversation first time meeting first date first week it was pretty fast so to me the the recognizing of something deeper being here can happen very quickly but how we now cultivate that and how we move forward is where we need to take our time and make sure we're not rushing and overlooking certain important issues that need to be discussed and addressed first to me it's the understanding of chemistry versus compatibility and the idea that there needs to be a spark there needs to be a connection that I feel with someone like you're saying on a deeper level but I find that I find that most people are not Adept and knowing whether the connection they feel with someone is deeper or physical yeah like I would say that it's easy to it you can often feel a spark with if you meet a lot of people you can feel a spot with a lot of people but that doesn't mean that they're the right person to build a relationship absolutely right yes so it's connection to me is a very rare occurrence right yes so I feel that people who've actually experienced it they can tell you maybe once in their life if you're lucky two times maybe all right but it's not this thing that happens with everybody whereas chemistry uh feeling of spark these things can happen with a lot of different people yeah so I do think there's there's this education that's needed to understand how we differentiate these things so that we don't confuse them because I see a lot of people take that chemistry and think oh this is it this is the one it's like but you had chemistry with the last five people why is this one the one and not them so I do think we have to be careful with that yeah I think so so we're on the same page there's three things there's connection on the deeper level there's chemistry which is like the spark on a more superficial level and then there's compatibility which is like what makes get lost and I can relate to that with my wife I definitely felt so I I'm one of those people who I kind of knew from the first few moments when I met my wife before she was my wife was like I was like yeah this is my person like I felt that way yeah for sure I felt that connection and there was chemistry there too but it had to be turned into compatibility in order to create a long lasting relationship we've been together for 10 years we're still learning building going through everything but that was a big part of it so that I can get behind is do you see it that way too or is there something different in so how do you see it believe it or not I used to make compatibility the least important but that was because I was looking at it the wrong way once I kind of looked at the definition again and compatibility is about two people coexisting in harmony yeah then I was like okay no you you have to have that I just I got caught up more so in like let's say a dating site says okay we're gonna decide who's compatible so I view compatible as like an on the paper it looks good it's supposed to match but you can have a lot of people who are supposed to be compatible and it doesn't work absolutely so I think that it's compatibility is that add-on once we have the connection and the chemistry now we have to create that Harmony which is the compatibility yes I agree with you and and it is interesting how that word compatibility is thrown around and you're so right that compatibility on paper doesn't mean compatibility in real life exactly and to me compatibility really has another word inside of it which is like adaptability and that deeper understanding of an individual where you know how much you're willing to adapt around certain parts of the relationship but we'll get to that I think a lot of people like you know and and that's where we got into this conversation around what is slow a lot of people are waiting to feel like is this person wasting my time are they the one and so they don't have a deeper connection maybe they had that spark of chemistry and now that's kind of subsided how do you know if someone's wasting your time how do you know if you're letting yourself be used or wasted in that way so to me again I think it always starts with self and you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you because just use an example let's say you're a woman and the only reason why you're holding on to this guy is because he's a nice guy you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you figure let me try to make it work you're wasting your time this is where you're setting yourself up for disaster every single time so if it's not born out of a true connection love a genuine desire you really like this individual of course there's always things we have to work through but is the foundation strong enough for us to say okay we can make something special here and I think once we are honest with ourselves that kind of helps answer the question because sometimes we get so caught up trying to animal lies the other individual that is like we get in our heads and now we're missing the mark on what's really important here and we can't always say for sure what's going on with them I will say that in general if this person isn't willing to talk about things they're wasting your time if they're not willing to address or correct things that have been talked about they're wasting your time if you guys aren't on the same page about what you want and where you want to go in life wasting time so there are some things I think we can just look at and say listen this is pointless here but a lot of times and I have to say this especially for women women's intuition is extremely powerful I'm a huge believer in it and I feel like women know very early this isn't it but they rationalize reasons to convince themselves to give this man a chance and this again is a waste of time because it just doesn't work I've seen people turn what should have been maybe a couple weeks of dating into years of being married to someone they were not happy with all because they did not listen to themselves from the beginning they knew what it was but they just could not accept it for what it was yeah and I love that point on intuition it's almost like when a relationship finally ends a lot of us think to ourselves I knew they weren't right yeah like I knew it I knew that they weren't the one but you just didn't listen to that part of yourself yes so so let's break it down for people let's help people out we started talking about three very important words connection which you defined chemistry which we've defined in compatibility which we've defined how do people know the difference between connection and chemistry when they meet someone because I find that the science shows that you're experiencing dopamine and cortisol at the same times you're experiencing the reward chemical and stress chemical at the same time which gives you that chemistry feeling which is the feeling of butterflies in your stomach or like do they like me are they into me what should I wear that kind of feeling but then you're talking about a deeper connection how do you hear the difference because I think a lot of us just get swept up in the feeling of I'm So Into that person they're so into me how do you know so I think one is are you even being yourself or can you be yourself with this individual if if you're presenting your representative then this is not a real connection this is them falling for that person that you're presenting but that's not real so to me you have you should be already being yourself but with that person you have a connection with it's a more natural flow we don't have to force it we just feel so much more comfortable around them I think in addition to that is when you when you find yourself all caught up in the moment and caught up in that chemistry again you have to ask yourself what am I really attaching myself to what about what do I really like about this individual what I find is that when it's really about chemistry we're still on the surface you don't really know about them yet you just know you guys had a good time maybe you had fun at this event you guys were able to talk about a lot of different things which is great which is gonna also be important if there is a connection however do you even know what college did they want do you know what kind of Life they want to live you know are you guys really on the same page I think connection is our paths align our purpose is align so for us to align we have to have a deeper understanding of where we're headed and can we head there together so so that's why I think though you may feel it or you may feel like you're feeling it you have to do your due diligence to dig deeper to find out okay is this just I got caught up on the surface or there is something real here yeah and I think once we ask enough questions because I think that's the other big problem we have this experience where we feel this chemistry we're so excited and now we're afraid to ask questions because we don't want to blow up the fantasy yes you know what I'm saying we're just like no no I want to keep believing this is great so let me not ask anything let me not run this person away let me not rock the boat but that's going to be what tells us if this is real or not yes I think you're I think you've hit on something there like we're so scared of losing someone that we're okay with not asking important questions and discovering important truths that actually define whether this relationship is going to last absolutely and that is ultimately going back to your point earlier that is ultimately you not being yourself right you're losing yourself scared that you're going to lose the other person so you're okay with not being yourself do you think it's ever okay this is a funny question I think but I have to ask you because I think it's a healthy discussion do you think it's ever okay to present different sides of yourself in order to attract someone or do you think that you're ultimately setting yourself up for failure in a relationship almost like I think a lot of people they may not become someone completely different but I think a lot of people are like oh I'm gonna show my smart side because it will attract this person or I'm gonna show my this side because they're like that are you saying any of that kind of molding is unhealthy or do you think there's room for that I think anything that is not sustainable is unhealthy so look at it as if I'm a man and I'm meeting this woman I want to impress her so I'm like okay I'm gonna try to spend all my money take a nice five-star restaurant all these things but deep inside I prefer a more simple lifestyle you know I don't like all that extra stuff okay that's horrible that's a sale for disaster that's unhealthy because you can't sustain what you're presenting to that individual that's gonna draw them in so whatever it is another like common example is you'll have women who love to communicate they want to be able to talk to you every single day but because they're afraid of coming off a certain kind of way they'll hold back on their communication so now they'll make it seem like they're okay with talking every now and then we don't always have to text and then this guy falls for that he falls for this low standard I won't call low standard but not having such a high expectation of him when it comes to communication then he finally gets with the woman her true self is going to come out at some point no one can suppress their true self forever it comes out and now it's like what is this I did not sign up for this now we're fighting now we're stressed because you want him to call you more he was used to you not being worried about it so much that's why it's going to always not work out so it's extremely unhealthy unless we're presenting a side of us that is truly us and we can sustain it you've hit on something again that that at the beginning of relationships we often display unrealistic standards and we set those yes and then when things shift and now you're back in reality again the other person's like but wait a minute I thought you were really into me and I even went through that with my wife when we first met I was able to spend pretty much every day with her because I didn't have a job and so I was looking for work I was applying I would go see her at her College every day and I would spend the day with her and I'd be in the library applying for jobs while she was studying yeah and I could see it every day and I think I saw every day potentially for like six months maybe every single day five days a week at least and then when I got a job that wasn't the case anymore because I was at work now and I'd set this unrealistic expectation that we could see each other all the time and even in the beginning I would see her all the time because I'd spend time with her family but we wouldn't spend time with my family because I hadn't told my family yet and so now that my family knew we were trying to split the time and all of a sudden it was like wait a minute we used to spend time at my house and so even in little things like that it took a bit of adapting because I'd set a false standard in our relationship and then thankfully my wife was adapting and she understood and she got it and it was fine but I think for so many people you set unrealistic expectations in who you are yes and that's hard to come back from absolutely yeah and that's why it's so important for us to know who we are so that we can present the real from the jump you know because again A lot of times people you know this idea that we're always changing yes I do think we're always evolving but some of the big shifts that you see are is not because that's just the way life is it's because you did take the time to figure yourself out first and then you got with this person and now you want them to adjust now thank God for you she was able to adjust but there's a lot of people that they can't handle that yeah and now everything falls apart from there so that's why yeah we have to be very careful with what we're presenting from the beginning yeah it's I I agree with you on that that we think people change but actually they just start to understand themselves exactly they went from being completely unconscious about who they were you met an unconscious version of a person yeah and now you think they're changing but they just became conscious of who they are absolutely and but the thing is Stefan as you know like Society doesn't encourage that time of getting to know yourself right when you're young you're not trained in how to think about who you want to be you're trained in thinking about what you want to I do it's about your job it's about your career you're not thinking about who you are as a human being or as a person so how do we in this Society where understanding who you are is not clear it's not encouraged where where does one start or where have you kind of found great insights in trying to discover who we are I would love to see more parents encouraging their children to explore how they're feeling about who they are like what I have found is a lot of people who let's say I I had one client where she wanted to be an actress when she was a little kid uh but parents kind of push in a different direction now she's like a social worker but her desire is still to be an actress like the things that they they wanted to do they they want to do as an adult now you can find back in their childhood in a lot of cases so I feel like too many people have stifled their children's growth in certain areas with limited ideas of well this can't make money or this wouldn't be a good look for the family or whatever the case may be it's like no let them walk in it and see for themselves if that's really where they belong outside of that for me I think the big thing is getting in tune spiritually I'm just a huge believer in that I feel like me finding myself was when I went into what I call my Wilderness period I kind of just shut everything off that I was doing because I used to be all over having fun partying all these different things things and then God kind of slapped me upside my head and I had to like really pull away from everything and go deeper from within and it felt like a process of breaking me down to build me right back up and that's when I start to see things clearer because what I realized is the world is filled with distractions and it's the distractions why we can't see ourselves for who we really are if we simply shut off the distractions long enough you will learn a lot so even if someone just took a year off don't worry you know limit the TV you're watching limit the music you're listening to limit all the internet stuff just really go deeper within yourself spend more time alone spend more time you know thinking and processing you will learn a lot because again a lot of it is it isn't a problem of we don't know ourselves we are not aware and we're not willing to accept and once we allow ourselves to do those two things become aware and then accept it we become free yeah I I mean I agree with you I think that I've always been a big proponent of solitude to understand who you are because as soon as you have another person you now have another person's opinions you have to filter yes as soon as you have another person in front of you you have another person's judgments to filter and so now you can't even say what you truly think about something because you're constantly thinking what does that person think about me and my beliefs and so understanding your beliefs in solitude allows you to be really clear about what your values and beliefs are and and that's what it's there for I think when people get into if we switch to compatibility again the idea we talked about the difference between connection and chemistry but compatibility is really interesting because a lot of people believe that relationships should be hard and they require hard work and a lot of people believe relationships should be easy and everything should just flow where have you kind of discovered your lens on that Spectrum so okay there's a there's a couple ways to look at it I think that most relationships and I'll even be more specific most relations that involve connection and true love are typically hard not because relationships have to be hard but because most people have been hurt by something in their life are holding on to past traumas haven't resolved it once they meet this individual that they feel so strongly about it is scary this is where things get difficult it's the difficultness in how do I handle this how do I manage this you'll have people feel like they're losing themselves but they're not losing themselves their true self is coming out and it's it's the self that's been hiding behind that wall they've been using for quote-unquote protection but I always say the same module to protect you the same as blocking your blessings so now they're being pulled from behind it it's it's makes them feel some kind of way and again people start to mishandle things you also have situations where people are getting bad advice like I'm gonna give one example um there's this uh book called The Game by Neil Strauss I don't know if you ever read that book yeah it was great Neil you know you you answer that world to pick up artistry we learned it and he was great with the women but then once he found that woman that he fell in love with all that stuff doesn't work anymore so you have a lot of men being taught how to handle women in general but they don't understand that's not how you handle the woman you truly love and so now again you have individuals who though they are truly in love with this person they constantly mishandle it with bad Guidance with fear and all these things this is what makes it hard and and I even think that a lot of times the people who are supposed to be together sometimes will have the hardest time getting together but I believe that once we're able to conquer that part of it and actually come together it's not hard yes it takes work I believe we have to be conscious and mindful of how we treat our partners how we show up being willing to listen but I think it's so much easier to do those things with someone you have a connection with and you're truly in love with it's gonna always feel ten times harder when you're in the wrong relationship and I would argue the vast majority of people are in the wrong relationship that's why they're seeing it be so difficult and when you see this whole it's easy typically it's easy because you have two people who are not digging deeper they're they're trying to write out that chemistry we talked about earlier for as long as possible all right so yeah it seems like it's great it's easy no issues but it doesn't really work like that because they're just not facing the reality of the situation so I think we we have to understand that there is going to be some bumps in the road because of all the things that people have been through but once we're able to come together and we know this is our partner this is who we want to share our life with it can get so much better yeah and do you do you think that people have just been given generally the wrong education on how to deal with another person in their life 100 yeah because unfortunately a lot of individuals are giving advice from a bit or hurt place there and and they're trying to disguise it as I'm just looking out for you no you you have inhaled and you cannot properly guide them in a positive and loving Manner and I think that a lot of people you know I always say it's funny how we'll spend a lot of time getting educated for the for the sake of our careers and business but we don't do the same for relationships and yet relationships arguably are even more important than that career business and even if it's not a romantic relationship just relationships in general your ability to coexist with others connect with others is extremely important if you want that business to succeed you have to learn how to establish business relationships there's no way around it so we have to learn how to talk to people listen to people you know what I'm saying and just make make things work when we come together with other individuals so I definitely think that we're just lacking in a lot of education and again too many because there's so many voices on the internet now there's just so much bad advice being given and and the individuals giving it they may be giving like let's say 80 of the advice is accurate but it's that 20 that's completely off that can derail everything and that's the stuff that people are gravitating to and this is causing a lot of problems can you give us some example of some of the like not specific people or anything like that I just mean like could you give example of bad advice and what about it is bad or unhealthy for people to try and put into practice okay so one thing I heard recently was an individual told uh said some of the best advice you can give to men is to not fall in love you know basically just find a woman you want to be with and kind of keep it there the reason why I view that as horrible advice is because you sit down with any man who's lived enough life they will all be able to say there's been at least one time they fail deeply for a woman all right the problem isn't falling deep before a woman the problem is we don't know how to handle it once we get there the problem is because we're not accustomed to handling and processing our emotions a certain kind of way and being this vulnerable we don't understand what's going to be required of us in that moment we also kind of lose sight of because I'm a big believer in masculine and feminine energy and I believe that if she was attracted to you because of that masculine energy that you give off and now you become this emotional wreck because you don't know how to handle all these feelings you have for her well you start to become less attractive to her and it's not that it's not fixable it's fixable but again a lack of understanding and awareness derails the situation so rather than telling men don't fall in love because it's inevitable let's teach them how we walk in love how we make what I call Loving in your masculine how you maintain that energy and still be able to pour into that woman in a way that allows relationship to flourish yeah and how does that work when I think obviously a lot of people in that example that you're giving if if the person is attracted to someone because of their masculine energy but at the same time they want them to be empathetic and compassionate and kind which are generally seen as more feminine energy how does that person balance the two or is that is that not how you're explaining is that no it's about balance so we have to understand we all have masculine and feminine of course within us I'm a Believer in one must be your dominant energy the other is the one you tap into when necessary so as a man you can walk in your masculine and in those moments tap into those things but you can't just stay there all the time all right you can't just become this needy emotional God that's not going to work in the vast majority of cases and so what happens is there's this messaging that's being thrown out there that women don't like good guys I don't believe that's what it is I believe that women become less attracted when you don't know how to exude and walk in your masculine energy it's and and we're hiding behind the label of good guy you can be a good guy and still exude masculine energy and that's the thing and we also think that oh they like bad boys no if you look deeper it's really the masculine energy that that quote-unquote bad boy exudes but what they desire is a mixture of both the same way that we would want a mixture of both we would want a loving sweet woman family woman whatever or and if you're a guy who wants a mask and woman cool but you don't want her to be just that you know you want her to have the ability to tap into that other side when necessary I think we all desire that balance in our partner and I think it's healthy and if we just learn how to maintain it and how to nurture it we would see greater success in relationships yeah what are some of the skills with with mastering that energy that you think we're missing out on and balancing that energy and knowing when to be which and because the reason why it's hard is I think we live in a binary world right like you feel like you have to choose like you're either a bad boy or you're a good girl you are a doer or you're a thinker you're uh winner or you're a loser right like we think like that and some people go okay you need to be masculine or I can be feminine and I I definitely relate to what you were saying like I believe that there is a lot about me that is massively masculine in energy using that language and terminology my drive my ambition how I work my strategic mind and at the same time I consider myself to have a lot of great feminine energy and qualities where it comes to like empowering others and nurturing and the ability to hold deep compassionate space and be empathetic which are all powerful qualities for for everyone right Beyond gender they're powerful qualities and I appreciate and it's taken a long time to know when to be which and it's still and I still make mistakes right there's still sometimes like I should have been more assertive I should have been more affectionate so we live in a world that finds it hard to hold two opposing ideas at the same time yeah we don't know how to do that in any sphere of life let alone within ourselves so what are some of the skills that we can learn in order to nurture both those energies in a healthy way inside of ourselves so I think one it's going to require a lot of if you're already in a relationship it's going to boil down to a lot of transparency and communication you know her if you're that man trying to understand that woman and when you can walk in those two energies her being willing to be honest and open about you know what this was too much over here or I needed some of this over here and in time you're going to become more aware and understanding it's going to be like second nature to you you won't have to overthink it and I think part of it is not overthinking it it's kind of like being ourselves but understanding that we have to learn when this is doing too much and vice versa I also think that in reality for a lot of men especially uh when we're talking about relationships and kind of losing that masculine energy the the underlying issue is fear all right when we become so afraid of losing this woman we lose ourselves and so a lot of men now fall into this very feminine needy space because they're just afraid we have to learn that listen like to me I feel if your partner thinks you're never gonna walk away from them no matter what they do you've lost that's that's a horrible place to be in we have to get to a place where we both understand that as long as we show up the way that we need to show up for each other we have each other's back we will be here but neither of us will tolerate an unhealthy relationship and someone who blatantly does not want to work on making this better I would want my the woman I'm with to feel that way and I need to feel that way once we understand that and you have the confidence of I can walk away if I have to that shifts your energy right there in itself and now you don't find yourself falling into that place where again you start to look a lot more unattractive or for some men they become yes men in their relationships thinking that makes her happy that's turning her off she doesn't want you to be her yes man she wants you to stand up for yourself sometimes give your opinion give your perspective she wants to be able to you know if anything be able to have discussions with you about these things not just you say whatever you want whatever you want whatever you want over time it becomes a problem so I think that once we conquer that fear once we create a space where we can talk about these moments and not feel some kind of way I think sometimes men are not they struggle with taking the criticism from their partner men and women we we all do when we feel when we have actual feelings for someone you know we don't care about you it's not as big of a deal but we're emotionally invested we're more sensitive to it but we have to understand that these criticisms are for the sake of making things better and strengthening this relationship so once we can get to that place it's going to be so much easier to grow in it and then I think it's just a matter of understanding that it's this balance isn't just for your relationship so look at it like from a sports perspective if I'm on a basketball team there may be moments where I need to take the lead and recognize all right everyone else is down someone needs to step up this is my moment and then there's other moments where I realize okay let's say we already have a team captain let me show them that I can follow serve do what needs to be done so that the team can win it's just becoming aware of what the moment requires you know and again I think the more in tune we get the more in tune we get with ourselves and the more in tune we get with our partner the easier it becomes to find that balance that's the challenge right the challenge is just how much patience we have with ourselves and others to realize that you walked into an imbalance unbalanced situation and now it's like how much patience how much time are we going to give it to get to that because the challenge is I think we walk into a situation thinking it's perfect whereas we should be walking into a relationship knowing it's imperfect absolutely and we're going to learn and figure it out together and I think that's what sets us up for failure is because we walk into it going it's perfect and deep down we know it isn't but somehow we gloss over it whereas I find when I know we're gonna fight when I know we're gonna argue and I know there's going to be disagreements that sets me up to develop the skills I need in order to navigate those things yes but if I assume like oh we're never gonna fight and I always get that right we always meet someone who goes to I mean a friend who goes to me Jay we never fight I'm like how long have you been together because I don't I don't know anyone who never fights I get that no one has to get to like yeah the heights of fights yeah I did that I did that it doesn't have to be a heated fight but I don't know anyone who doesn't disagree there you go all right right I think that's important for people to understand yeah there's a difference yes you have some individuals out there that'll say arguing is normal it's healthy and to me it's like listen if we're talking about arguing where we're now Crossing disrespectful lines negative lines you know the way that we the tone we take with each other all these things that's not healthy yes it may happen you should be prepared for that but it does let's not normalize it just gonna keep doing this and it's it is what it is but you're right to to be with each other long enough and never have a disagreement that's extremely rare okay extremely rare and I do think that again as you mentioned we have to be ready for those moments we have to understand and going back to how we find that balance especially as men and even for women it's recognizing so for example if my partner is in a very heated moment let's say she's in her masculine right now all right she's getting rough well meeting her with more masculine is probably going to only make things worse yeah this is the time for me to be compassionate go to her hold her calm her down bring her peace in that moment you see because it we need to balance each other out same thing on the flip side if I'm all heated and I'm I'm extra passionate and then my woman now comes with that same energy that's it now where button has this is her moment to say no let me now be the one to soften the moment up bring that Sweetness in there and everybody calms down so it's learning how to feed off of each other and recognize okay they're over here let me bring it back over here and now we can work from that point and we're both good the problem is that we all see compassion and sweetness and kindness in those moments as a weakness we don't want to be that person because we see that as losing we see that as giving in we see that as us losing our power and strength in a relationship if we become the comforter or if we become the carer right like that's that's a perception that is the perception and we have to change that that is the power position so who is more powerful the person that lets the energy dictate them how they're going to react or the person that brings the energy and dictates how they're going to make this situation play out so if I'm coming in to calm it down and being all sweet because I'm trying to bring peace here I'm in the power position I'm not losing anything I'm gonna gain more peace and happiness and Harmony if I succeed in what I'm trying to do so we have to get out of that mindset of this makes us weaker and that is the big key of it that's a big problem that for a lot of women who struggle with their feminine energy that's a big issue where they feel that being feminine is weakness it's what got them taken advantage of and got them hurt but I always say it's not the feminine energy that's the problem it's who you give it to do they respect it did they honor it you know it's the same thing as a man does she respect your masculine if she doesn't then that might just be a sign you're with the wrong person but don't stop being that guy because the woman who's best for you is going to need that in those moments that that's exactly what it is is that when people have been their best selves for the wrong person that person brings out the worst in them yes right like when someone's been their best loving kindness self but someone took advantage of it that person now thinks next time I've got to be aggressive I've got to be you know powerful I've got to be strong in this way and I feel like that's kind of what most people are dealing with we know that is that you're just dealing with a wounded version of someone yes not a healed version of someone but I think people struggle to trust again and again especially when they see the same patterns in the person they're weird and I guess the question is why do we keep making the same mistakes because I feel like a lot of us keep dating the same people yeah and there's a part of us that also just keeps closing off or being more wounded it's almost like if you cut yourself you now walk around with your hand over that you don't want to get cut again and then if you lead it off and it gets cut even deeper now you're even more conscious of that and so I find that people are doing that where they're closing their heart more and more because it's been so misused and abused and I understand that I understand people don't want to be abused and misused but I guess the question is how do people find people that they know respect them so that they can be their best version or be a better version of themselves so you know you can't drive out Darkness with more Darkness you can't expose someone who's gonna hurt you by being someone who's closed off and holding back yourself we have it's kind of what we were just talking about we have to look at being vulnerable loving and open as not just well I'm setting myself to be hurt no it's how you expose people faster if I come with that energy and you cannot respect it match it then I know you don't belong here but if I hold back I give you a free pass to hold back so now we have two individuals who are hiding behind their walls because it's comfortable there but you can't really see what's what do we really have in front of us those walls are blinding you and you can't properly evaluate the situation so one we we got to get to a place of healing from our past so that we're not just walking around with the hand over the cut no you you gotta let the cup breathe you gotta let it heal all right holding on put your hand on there is delaying the process and like you said all that's gonna happen is when you finally take your hand off but you're taking it off with the wrong person and you haven't learned see what I want people to realize is your actions weren't the problem meaning you being loving sweet kind compassionate wasn't the problem it was the person separate those two things that you don't stop doing the good things now granted are there levels to this to where we have to learn again if I'm thinking about a man if you got so deeply emotional to where you kind of lost your your masculine energy and you became very needy okay you can say all right I need to continue to be loving but I know I have to learn how to draw a line I have to learn how not to cross that moment and again you only crossed it because you were unhealthy to begin with you only cross it because you were afraid to begin with once you get to that place where you're healthy and confident you won't find yourself Crossing that line anymore yeah you won't tolerate certain things anymore so we have to heal we have to be confident and we have to let our light shine so that we can expose what's in front of us easier that's a brilliant answer I I love the differentiation between how sharing your light is not the problem the person's the problem because we yeah we start to doubt whether being a good person a loving person is actually what wins in the world yeah and the truth is that it does win but it has to win with someone who can receive it and absolutely hold that space with you and share that space with you and I find that a lot of people keep giving that energy to the wrong person because we feel we can make them better right like there's this feeling of like I can change this person I can make them better I can heal them there's some of us want to fix people yeah and that means we assume the person we're with is broken and I think this is such a subconscious thing like if you're always critiquing if you're always picking at stuff with your partner chances are you don't think they're great like just now you think there's some issues with them when you think that you can fix them and they're broken tell us about that angle where now we're almost we've talked about being the loving and kind person but sometimes we're being the person that thinks we're loving and kind because we want to improve someone but that person doesn't want to improve one big problem is that what's really driving people to pick that individual is that by being the one that can upgrade you improve you I have more value here by having more value I have a false sense of security you have to appreciate me you're less likely to walk away you're less likely to cheat because you're lucky to have me I feel like I'm the prize here but those situations never really work because again you're choosing someone that is not capable of pouring into you the way you need you're basing this off of what you could do for them and that's not sustainable and you're choosing them because again you have more emotional control here what happens to so many people especially women it's something that I call the unhealthy love cycle of women where women in their first love experience outside of any childhood trauma may have experienced they're their most loving they're just out there they go all the way in but that typically happens at a younger age at an age where men are not mature enough to handle those kind of emotions that level of commitment so on and so forth so she gets hurt after she gets hurt her moment is saying to herself I will never let this happen to me again so now the woman starts to consciously or subconsciously choose men who are I don't want to say lower than hurt but essentially a man who does not take her there he's good enough to be with but I'm not that vulnerable with him he can't hurt me like that first love hurt me and so that Dynamic usually leads to picking that person I can fix I can make better who will appreciate and respect me but again it doesn't work out and many times you'll see these same situations the guy will move on to cheat on her not because and I have to say this because some women think yeah he's just being a man no not because he's a man but because you chose a man that you could never be the woman that he needed and he could never be the man that you needed once he kind of either gets what he needs from you to build himself up or the Smoke Clears from him being infatuated with you he starts to realize I'm not getting everything that I desire and now you building him up has brought him more attention from other women so now the the difference between what you're not giving him and what someone else is willing to give him becomes way clearer now the Temptation gets way stronger and he ends up doing something or she ends up cheating as well because he's safe but he doesn't fulfill her he doesn't satisfy her he he doesn't excite her in any kind of way and that's why I always said earlier like the safe choice is almost always the wrong choice but that is a function of people trying to choose these fix or uppers because they think it's going to give them some leverage there it's leverage that's it yeah it's leverage yeah how do you know when it's time to go like how do you know when it's like I feel like this is a common question where it's like how do you know when it's just I've tried everything we've tried together tried our best maybe we went to therapy maybe we got a coach or maybe you know maybe we didn't do those things how do I just know that I feel like I need to go but I'm scared of being alone yeah I'm I'm scared of dealing with the reality that I put in a lot of energy and I feel like you said this earlier but a lot of people stay in something for a lot longer than they should because they'd rather not be alone yes they'd rather not face reality they'd rather not lose two years of their life they'd rather lose two more thinking that this this should stay like how do you know when it's time to go let me first say this yes I think I think Society needs to change their thinking as far as Letting Go doesn't always mean it can't work out later it's just that it cannot work out under these circumstances all right because some people say well I feel like they're the one okay maybe they are but maybe the time is not right and it's letting go that will allow you both to do what needs to be done in your own personal lives that would allow you to come back together and have something way more amazing so that's number one thing to consider but outside of that it's when one if that person is unwilling to put in the work necessary it's time to go there's like so many times I'll I'll have a video go up about communication and someone will comment saying I've tried talking to him and he doesn't want to talk to me and in my head I'm like why are you still with them if he refuses to talk to you you've already tried there's nothing else to do but people will let it Linger on and continue why they can why they consistently complain or unhappy about this specific issue it's not gonna magically get better they're not gonna just change it just because all of a sudden they see oh it needs to change no if they're fighting it now they have no reason to change it and what people have to understand you know especially with this whole trying to fix people up healing and facing your traumas is one of the hardest things for people to do so if they already have you in their life they're essentially getting the incentive or the benefit of relationship without having to do the deeper work it's almost like if I'm at a job and the job says you need to have a master's degree to work here but we're going to hire you anyway and give you time to get that master's degree if getting that degree is super hard to you you're gonna drag that out as long as possible yeah you may never get the degree until they fire you when they fire you and you realize oh my gosh if I don't do this I'll never get this person back I'll never get this opportunity back now they might go and get it because it's very tough to walk down the path of the healing process so if they're not willing to work on it you guys have already discussed it and I think that's a big thing because there's a lot of relationships that end and the couples don't even know what the real issue was so the communication they'll say well we talked about no you guys argued you guys lashed out there wasn't a clear communication as to what the problem was what is expected how do we go about this if you've done that and I believe one of the most effective ways to do that is through a letter because I feel like verbal communication of deep issues and concerns they typically don't go well you know people get distracted they forget what they want to say the other person gets defensive they're not they're listening to rebuttal not to understand but when there's a letter involved it gives you time to get everything out you can you can evaluate your tone leave no stone unturned and now they have an opportunity to process it on their time to really take it in and then you guys can come together and discuss the letter and now it's so much easier to stay on point and get everything covered if we've done that and they're still unwilling or there's still no progress It's Time to Go yeah that's great that's great advice and I for me that's the biggest one it's like you can't make something last if only one person's working on it you can't keep hoping and waiting and wishing and and like you said that ending doesn't mean forever and often I found that two people need to grow individually to be able to grow collectively and we're forcing growing together so hard but we need space to grow and if you can't grow together chances are you need to grow apart in order to see whether you grow together again or grow for someone else and all of those options are okay but we put so much pressure on people to grow together that they grow apart yeah and actually if they chose to grow apart and grow separately they could come back together if they learn the lessons and I think that's a mistake too though sometimes people think I'm gonna go learn this lesson for this person I meet a lot of people they're like okay they broke up with me because I wasn't XYZ now I'm gonna go become XYZ to win them back yeah and I always find I'm just like well no you should go become XYZ if you think you were missing XYZ but not to win them back because you don't know what they're gonna do what's your take on people trying to win people back so I 100 agree with you like if we're trying to learn or grow it needs to be for the benefit of who we are and just whoever we deal with so was almost like if I was a bad Communicator in this relationship I shouldn't learn to better communicate for that person I need to better communicate for whoever I'm going to be with if you can't see it in that light then maybe you're looking at the wrong thing my thing is this I think it all depends on what the details of the situation was what led to the breakup what were you overlooking what was missing are these fixable issues because a lot of people are trying to win back someone where the issues are not resolved so it's like what's the point of going back we're just going to go in the same cycle all over again they're letting this idea of I miss them I don't want to be without them blind them from the fact that you two did not get along well or you two don't want the same things or YouTube just whatever it is maybe there's a lack of sexual satisfaction I don't know why I feel the need to mention that but it happens a lot of times you have to stay focused on what led to the end and can this be corrected if it can cool but as you mentioned listen correcting it does not guarantee you they're coming back and even if they will come back you don't know when they may need so you may have figured yourself out in six months they might need a year and I would argue if you guys are truly meant for each other and at the end of the year you need a year too you're just overlooking some things and you're rushing the process because you want to get back to them yeah it's I've never found a situation where it was truly only one person who had problems and the other person was squeaky clean no no you thought you were but you got some stuff too you needed to correct of course so I think we have to be honest with ourselves and just keep striving to be better and rather than focus on winning them back just become the best you because if you do and there's a true connection there the opportunity will present itself again and you too will be able to make something of it and the struggle is that when people finally make that decision to break up or let go the study showed that the parts of your brain that are activated in a breakup are the same as detoxing from cocaine right like you're literally trying to detox so you can have a craving yeah for someone that's bad for you yeah or also it says that the areas of the brain that are activated in a breakup are the areas that are the same with physical pain so if someone like punching the stomach the reason why we say like my heart feels broken is because it literally feels like something's broken yeah so when you're going through a breakup when you're feeling the craving to be with that person again studies show that eight over eighty percent of people are looking at what their exes are doing on social media right probably through a Finster account or whatever but you have to you have to know what are some of the healthiest tips that you've given to people and the people that you've worked with that have genuinely helped people move through a breaker the first thing is to ask yourself again why was I even there why am I holding on to this individual again I think sometimes we get so blinded by just the experience or our desire to have this person for whatever reason that we Overlook what was really missing or why this could not work anyway what you'll also find is and I'm sure there's probably a study on it where if you if they broke up with you you ever see a situation it happens on TV a lot where the person could be like okay I'm gonna break up with my partner they're planning on it they've been practicing in their head right it took them a couple weeks to muster up the strength they're about to do it and then the partner breaks up with them yeah now it's oh my gosh I gotta get them back yeah so it's like you just forgot this whole time that was your plan yeah it just gave you the past to do it but now because we don't like to be the one being let go of now we're fighting hard to get it back yeah so we have to really not fall into these little traps that happen to us as human beings our brains just playing tricks on us or something where we confuse these emotions for oh my gosh I must really love them or even like you said you go into that detox and because you miss I always tell people no matter how bad the relationship was there's always good moments so if you're trying to break free you can't just let your brain focus on the good moments you have to remind yourself why this doesn't work but if you keep focusing on the good you start to make yourself think oh because I missed this good moment I must miss them and there's this quote that says sometimes you're not missing the person you're missing the feeling so you've got to be able to differentiate those two things so getting back to how we get over these breakups is recognizing why were we really there to begin with you know could this actually work the next thing is you know I'm a huge believer that a lot of times a breakup is a blessing in disguise even if there is a chance that you two can work together or this is the one for you you may have needed this time to re-evaluate and get things in order something is obviously wrong even if you it may be something as deep as because I've seen situations where everything was going amazingly well on the surface and the person broke up with them let's say the woman lets go of the man so to the man that's really confusing but what it was is that that woman she had not healed from her past relationships and this relationship being so good was scaring her and what happens is the the better you are the scarier it becomes for her she's looking for something to be wrong she has to validate her fear somehow wow when she can't find it she'll either sabotage the relationship or she'll run from it So to that man it may seem like this is so unfair which yeah it sucks but if this woman didn't break up with you now you were inevitably gonna face this same ending but at a worse time yeah all right this is still best that is happening now at least if she can go do what she needs to do there's a chance for this to come back around later but it's hard for us to see it in the moment so I think just really we also have to focus on our healing whenever a breakup happens the mistake we make is that we think it's about healing from the breakup no it's healing from everything you've been through you've probably been sleeping under the rug your childhood trauma for years maybe the last two three relationships whatever it is so and and not healing from those things is contributing to your struggle to get past this breakup and contributing to why you even chose this person to begin with I'm a huge believer that if you haven't healed you are 90 likely to choose the wrong person yeah it's just too difficult to pick that person that you truly love and can truly love you and accept that level of vulnerability when you have still not resolved your past traumas and past hurts yeah so to me that's the next big thing is just focus on your healing process because in that process you will also be able to see more clearly if this is really for you or not like walking around unhealed is like walking around with broken glasses you you can't see straight no matter how hard you try but healing will clear up your vision really really fast and now it'd be like oh wait a minute I didn't belong there yeah you know thank God the broke breakup happened you know now I'm in a better place I move forward so to me I think and I would say in addition to those things is just have an accountability partner whether that's friend coach therapist someone that can help keep you in check help remind you what you need to do someone that you know you have to talk to and update what's going on so you feel like okay I don't want to come back so I'm saying I'm doing the same thing over and over again it doesn't guarantee success but it helps it helps move the needle some so I would highly encourage that that one mindset you spoke about that that changes everything and it hit me today I was just thinking if we were just able in a moment to recognize that something painful now was going to be good for us in five years time that would change so many things in our life yes but we're so poor at dealing with current pain yeah even if it means future joy that we just can't accept that I have to go through this like in everything right like knowing that someone breaking up with you just saved you 10 years of a wasted life is so much more than knowing you're gonna have to go through a few months of pain and 10 months of pain maybe it's a bit longer maybe it's two three years but we just have to get our head around that that sometimes the best things that happen to you are protecting more of your life than the pain that they're causing you need the Peace of knowing I did what I needed to do that's it yeah because anytime you feel like well maybe I could have done this but I could have done that leaves the door open for doubt do it well exactly so it's like and that's why I'm such a big believer in you know there's people who say well once they're done they're done they'll just move on and I'm like no no Express Yourself get everything off your chest because you don't need anything to linger and you questioning well what if I did this different no make sure speak your full piece and now you can say all right I did what I had to do it is what it is I move forward and I mean it makes it easier it may not make it a hundred percent you know not an issue whatsoever but it's gonna be easier and also also for me that's why like my relationship with God is so important because that's where I find my peace in dealing with a situation that doesn't work out the way I want to I always tell myself okay if this isn't working out God has something better for me you know if this is happening right now there's a purpose because I know if I followed his guidance throughout this process there's no need for me to question why is this the current outcome there's a reason for this and I've been through these things enough times to see as you mentioned the reward is going to come it may come next week it may come years from now it will come and I'll be able to see how it all connected yeah Stefan it's been incredible talking to you man this has been such a great back-to-back flowing conversation uh we end every on purpose episode with the final five which is like a rapid fire which means every question has to be answered with one word to one sentence maximum okay so here are your final five the first question is what's the best relationship advice you've ever received or heard or given it is to love fully lovefully and be yourself because as I said earlier that's how you will expose quicker who is for you and who isn't for you second question what is the worst relationship advice you've ever heard or received get under someone to get over someone [Laughter] uh question number three uh how would you defin	that we think people change but actually they just start to understand themselves exactly they went from being completely unconscious about who they were you met an unconscious version of a person yeah and now you think they're changing but they just became conscious of who they are absolutely and but the thing is Stefan as you know like Society doesn't encourage that time of getting to know yourself right when you're young you're not trained in how to think about who you want to be you're trained in thinking about what you want to I do it's about your job it's about your career you're not thinking about who you are as a human being or as a person so how do we in this Society where understanding who you are is not clear it's not encouraged where where does one start or where have you kind of found great insights in trying to discover who we are I would love to see more parents encouraging their children to explore how they're feeling about who they are like what I have found is a lot of people who let's say I I had one client where she wanted to be an actress when she was a little kid uh but parents kind of push in a different direction now she's like a social worker but her desire is still to be an actress like the things that they they wanted to do they they want to do as an	5	4	2	that we think people change but actually they just start to understand themselves exactly they went from being completely unconscious about who they were you met an unconscious version of a person yeah and now you think they're changing but they just became conscious of who they are absolutely	I would love to see more parents encouraging their children to explore how they're feeling about who they are like what I have found is a lot of people who let's say I I had one client where she wanted to be an actress when she was a little kid uh but parents kind of push in a different direction now she's like a social worker but her desire is still to be an actress like the things that they they wanted to do they they want to do as an	4,0,8	6,2,5	4	0	8	6	2	5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPQBcb9wf8Q	4,056	mPQBcb9wf8Q	2023-03-27 00:00:00	you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you're wasting your time the best-selling author and host the number one Health and Wellness podcast on purpose with Jay Shetty what are the signs that someone deeply loves you because I feel like we live in this world where we're always wondering do they love me do they like me do they really like me are they really into me how do you know when you deeply love someone and when someone deeply loves you how do you even know so I'm gonna start with an answer that people probably won't expect to me the first key is do you truly love them because look at it like this to me a lot of people get caught up in infatuation um they have unhealthy attachments they have different motivations to why they decided this is the person that I want and that can make them feel like they're in love but to me true love flows both ways it's not a one-sided thing so when you can say I I'm not into them like that if we look deep into that situation I can almost guarantee what we'll find is infatuation attachment something else but when you can say no I feel it too I'm deeply in love with them I think that's your first key because without that nothing else matters because a lot of people are choosing Partners based off of what they love me so much so I assume it's safe here and this is a good choice to make but the safe choice is usually the wrong choice and a lot of these people select this individual thinking everything's going to be okay but because you're not really into them you can never be what they need and they were never truly what you needed which is why you never even got to that level with them so to choose them without first evaluating do you truly love them would not be wise yeah that's that's a great question and I think people struggle with that question too because I think we think of love as so many different things wrapped into one for example I could think I love someone because of how they treat me I could think I love someone because they have one quality that I really wish I had or I could love someone because I think that they're out of my league and they give me a bit of attention yeah and so what we think is love is so complex and so wide that we never stop to ask ourselves like what does love mean like what's the definition of love like how do I Define love so how do you define love and how do you encourage other people to create their definitions of Love well for me first off is always God is love and then when we take it from there love is about kindness compassion patience understanding a willingness to be selfless important to that individual but I think what's also important for people to understand is when we're trying to apply it to romantic relationships we have to understand that there's other ingredients that are necessary before we can move forward so you could love someone dearly but if they are not emotionally ready because maybe they haven't healed from their past maybe there's still some things that need to work out in their life then it wouldn't be time to move forward in a relationship with them and we have this bad habit of the minute we feel like there's love there we want to move forward exactly and as you mentioned we can get caught up sometimes in but we love them because of what they do for us but what are you prepared to do for them love is about giving all right so we have to ask ourselves okay do we know what their needs are are we willing to fulfill those needs because if not maybe this wasn't love maybe it just felt good in the moment maybe you got caught up in the hype and that's okay it happens to almost all of us if not all of us at some point in life but we have to just be real very clear with ourselves about what's really driving the intention right now but I think all those things I mentioned is what encompasses love of and that's like the foundation of it and then from there we have to look at some other things to see how we can move forward so many times like you you convince yourself something's love and what I find really interesting is that so many people fall in love too fast and no one wants to go for the slow patient understanding love which is what love requires you just said love is kind love is patient love is understanding those things take time I think those things take time to nurture and to to make sure that we're doing it correctly for each other so it's about learning each other's Love Languages and how we make it work in within that Dynamic I think also because so many people are not used to dealing with emotions at on that level being that vulnerable people mishandle it all right so it takes time for us to get to a place so we understand how to manage this and work through this however I think that I'm a huge believer in connection and I believe connection is like your spirit recognizing its match and it's very instant when you speak to couples who said they experience a connection they'll tell you first conversation first time meeting first date first week it was pretty fast so to me the the recognizing of something deeper being here can happen very quickly but how we now cultivate that and how we move forward is where we need to take our time and make sure we're not rushing and overlooking certain important issues that need to be discussed and addressed first to me it's the understanding of chemistry versus compatibility and the idea that there needs to be a spark there needs to be a connection that I feel with someone like you're saying on a deeper level but I find that I find that most people are not Adept and knowing whether the connection they feel with someone is deeper or physical yeah like I would say that it's easy to it you can often feel a spark with if you meet a lot of people you can feel a spot with a lot of people but that doesn't mean that they're the right person to build a relationship absolutely right yes so it's connection to me is a very rare occurrence right yes so I feel that people who've actually experienced it they can tell you maybe once in their life if you're lucky two times maybe all right but it's not this thing that happens with everybody whereas chemistry uh feeling of spark these things can happen with a lot of different people yeah so I do think there's there's this education that's needed to understand how we differentiate these things so that we don't confuse them because I see a lot of people take that chemistry and think oh this is it this is the one it's like but you had chemistry with the last five people why is this one the one and not them so I do think we have to be careful with that yeah I think so so we're on the same page there's three things there's connection on the deeper level there's chemistry which is like the spark on a more superficial level and then there's compatibility which is like what makes get lost and I can relate to that with my wife I definitely felt so I I'm one of those people who I kind of knew from the first few moments when I met my wife before she was my wife was like I was like yeah this is my person like I felt that way yeah for sure I felt that connection and there was chemistry there too but it had to be turned into compatibility in order to create a long lasting relationship we've been together for 10 years we're still learning building going through everything but that was a big part of it so that I can get behind is do you see it that way too or is there something different in so how do you see it believe it or not I used to make compatibility the least important but that was because I was looking at it the wrong way once I kind of looked at the definition again and compatibility is about two people coexisting in harmony yeah then I was like okay no you you have to have that I just I got caught up more so in like let's say a dating site says okay we're gonna decide who's compatible so I view compatible as like an on the paper it looks good it's supposed to match but you can have a lot of people who are supposed to be compatible and it doesn't work absolutely so I think that it's compatibility is that add-on once we have the connection and the chemistry now we have to create that Harmony which is the compatibility yes I agree with you and and it is interesting how that word compatibility is thrown around and you're so right that compatibility on paper doesn't mean compatibility in real life exactly and to me compatibility really has another word inside of it which is like adaptability and that deeper understanding of an individual where you know how much you're willing to adapt around certain parts of the relationship but we'll get to that I think a lot of people like you know and and that's where we got into this conversation around what is slow a lot of people are waiting to feel like is this person wasting my time are they the one and so they don't have a deeper connection maybe they had that spark of chemistry and now that's kind of subsided how do you know if someone's wasting your time how do you know if you're letting yourself be used or wasted in that way so to me again I think it always starts with self and you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you because just use an example let's say you're a woman and the only reason why you're holding on to this guy is because he's a nice guy you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you figure let me try to make it work you're wasting your time this is where you're setting yourself up for disaster every single time so if it's not born out of a true connection love a genuine desire you really like this individual of course there's always things we have to work through but is the foundation strong enough for us to say okay we can make something special here and I think once we are honest with ourselves that kind of helps answer the question because sometimes we get so caught up trying to animal lies the other individual that is like we get in our heads and now we're missing the mark on what's really important here and we can't always say for sure what's going on with them I will say that in general if this person isn't willing to talk about things they're wasting your time if they're not willing to address or correct things that have been talked about they're wasting your time if you guys aren't on the same page about what you want and where you want to go in life wasting time so there are some things I think we can just look at and say listen this is pointless here but a lot of times and I have to say this especially for women women's intuition is extremely powerful I'm a huge believer in it and I feel like women know very early this isn't it but they rationalize reasons to convince themselves to give this man a chance and this again is a waste of time because it just doesn't work I've seen people turn what should have been maybe a couple weeks of dating into years of being married to someone they were not happy with all because they did not listen to themselves from the beginning they knew what it was but they just could not accept it for what it was yeah and I love that point on intuition it's almost like when a relationship finally ends a lot of us think to ourselves I knew they weren't right yeah like I knew it I knew that they weren't the one but you just didn't listen to that part of yourself yes so so let's break it down for people let's help people out we started talking about three very important words connection which you defined chemistry which we've defined in compatibility which we've defined how do people know the difference between connection and chemistry when they meet someone because I find that the science shows that you're experiencing dopamine and cortisol at the same times you're experiencing the reward chemical and stress chemical at the same time which gives you that chemistry feeling which is the feeling of butterflies in your stomach or like do they like me are they into me what should I wear that kind of feeling but then you're talking about a deeper connection how do you hear the difference because I think a lot of us just get swept up in the feeling of I'm So Into that person they're so into me how do you know so I think one is are you even being yourself or can you be yourself with this individual if if you're presenting your representative then this is not a real connection this is them falling for that person that you're presenting but that's not real so to me you have you should be already being yourself but with that person you have a connection with it's a more natural flow we don't have to force it we just feel so much more comfortable around them I think in addition to that is when you when you find yourself all caught up in the moment and caught up in that chemistry again you have to ask yourself what am I really attaching myself to what about what do I really like about this individual what I find is that when it's really about chemistry we're still on the surface you don't really know about them yet you just know you guys had a good time maybe you had fun at this event you guys were able to talk about a lot of different things which is great which is gonna also be important if there is a connection however do you even know what college did they want do you know what kind of Life they want to live you know are you guys really on the same page I think connection is our paths align our purpose is align so for us to align we have to have a deeper understanding of where we're headed and can we head there together so so that's why I think though you may feel it or you may feel like you're feeling it you have to do your due diligence to dig deeper to find out okay is this just I got caught up on the surface or there is something real here yeah and I think once we ask enough questions because I think that's the other big problem we have this experience where we feel this chemistry we're so excited and now we're afraid to ask questions because we don't want to blow up the fantasy yes you know what I'm saying we're just like no no I want to keep believing this is great so let me not ask anything let me not run this person away let me not rock the boat but that's going to be what tells us if this is real or not yes I think you're I think you've hit on something there like we're so scared of losing someone that we're okay with not asking important questions and discovering important truths that actually define whether this relationship is going to last absolutely and that is ultimately going back to your point earlier that is ultimately you not being yourself right you're losing yourself scared that you're going to lose the other person so you're okay with not being yourself do you think it's ever okay this is a funny question I think but I have to ask you because I think it's a healthy discussion do you think it's ever okay to present different sides of yourself in order to attract someone or do you think that you're ultimately setting yourself up for failure in a relationship almost like I think a lot of people they may not become someone completely different but I think a lot of people are like oh I'm gonna show my smart side because it will attract this person or I'm gonna show my this side because they're like that are you saying any of that kind of molding is unhealthy or do you think there's room for that I think anything that is not sustainable is unhealthy so look at it as if I'm a man and I'm meeting this woman I want to impress her so I'm like okay I'm gonna try to spend all my money take a nice five-star restaurant all these things but deep inside I prefer a more simple lifestyle you know I don't like all that extra stuff okay that's horrible that's a sale for disaster that's unhealthy because you can't sustain what you're presenting to that individual that's gonna draw them in so whatever it is another like common example is you'll have women who love to communicate they want to be able to talk to you every single day but because they're afraid of coming off a certain kind of way they'll hold back on their communication so now they'll make it seem like they're okay with talking every now and then we don't always have to text and then this guy falls for that he falls for this low standard I won't call low standard but not having such a high expectation of him when it comes to communication then he finally gets with the woman her true self is going to come out at some point no one can suppress their true self forever it comes out and now it's like what is this I did not sign up for this now we're fighting now we're stressed because you want him to call you more he was used to you not being worried about it so much that's why it's going to always not work out so it's extremely unhealthy unless we're presenting a side of us that is truly us and we can sustain it you've hit on something again that that at the beginning of relationships we often display unrealistic standards and we set those yes and then when things shift and now you're back in reality again the other person's like but wait a minute I thought you were really into me and I even went through that with my wife when we first met I was able to spend pretty much every day with her because I didn't have a job and so I was looking for work I was applying I would go see her at her College every day and I would spend the day with her and I'd be in the library applying for jobs while she was studying yeah and I could see it every day and I think I saw every day potentially for like six months maybe every single day five days a week at least and then when I got a job that wasn't the case anymore because I was at work now and I'd set this unrealistic expectation that we could see each other all the time and even in the beginning I would see her all the time because I'd spend time with her family but we wouldn't spend time with my family because I hadn't told my family yet and so now that my family knew we were trying to split the time and all of a sudden it was like wait a minute we used to spend time at my house and so even in little things like that it took a bit of adapting because I'd set a false standard in our relationship and then thankfully my wife was adapting and she understood and she got it and it was fine but I think for so many people you set unrealistic expectations in who you are yes and that's hard to come back from absolutely yeah and that's why it's so important for us to know who we are so that we can present the real from the jump you know because again A lot of times people you know this idea that we're always changing yes I do think we're always evolving but some of the big shifts that you see are is not because that's just the way life is it's because you did take the time to figure yourself out first and then you got with this person and now you want them to adjust now thank God for you she was able to adjust but there's a lot of people that they can't handle that yeah and now everything falls apart from there so that's why yeah we have to be very careful with what we're presenting from the beginning yeah it's I I agree with you on that that we think people change but actually they just start to understand themselves exactly they went from being completely unconscious about who they were you met an unconscious version of a person yeah and now you think they're changing but they just became conscious of who they are absolutely and but the thing is Stefan as you know like Society doesn't encourage that time of getting to know yourself right when you're young you're not trained in how to think about who you want to be you're trained in thinking about what you want to I do it's about your job it's about your career you're not thinking about who you are as a human being or as a person so how do we in this Society where understanding who you are is not clear it's not encouraged where where does one start or where have you kind of found great insights in trying to discover who we are I would love to see more parents encouraging their children to explore how they're feeling about who they are like what I have found is a lot of people who let's say I I had one client where she wanted to be an actress when she was a little kid uh but parents kind of push in a different direction now she's like a social worker but her desire is still to be an actress like the things that they they wanted to do they they want to do as an adult now you can find back in their childhood in a lot of cases so I feel like too many people have stifled their children's growth in certain areas with limited ideas of well this can't make money or this wouldn't be a good look for the family or whatever the case may be it's like no let them walk in it and see for themselves if that's really where they belong outside of that for me I think the big thing is getting in tune spiritually I'm just a huge believer in that I feel like me finding myself was when I went into what I call my Wilderness period I kind of just shut everything off that I was doing because I used to be all over having fun partying all these different things things and then God kind of slapped me upside my head and I had to like really pull away from everything and go deeper from within and it felt like a process of breaking me down to build me right back up and that's when I start to see things clearer because what I realized is the world is filled with distractions and it's the distractions why we can't see ourselves for who we really are if we simply shut off the distractions long enough you will learn a lot so even if someone just took a year off don't worry you know limit the TV you're watching limit the music you're listening to limit all the internet stuff just really go deeper within yourself spend more time alone spend more time you know thinking and processing you will learn a lot because again a lot of it is it isn't a problem of we don't know ourselves we are not aware and we're not willing to accept and once we allow ourselves to do those two things become aware and then accept it we become free yeah I I mean I agree with you I think that I've always been a big proponent of solitude to understand who you are because as soon as you have another person you now have another person's opinions you have to filter yes as soon as you have another person in front of you you have another person's judgments to filter and so now you can't even say what you truly think about something because you're constantly thinking what does that person think about me and my beliefs and so understanding your beliefs in solitude allows you to be really clear about what your values and beliefs are and and that's what it's there for I think when people get into if we switch to compatibility again the idea we talked about the difference between connection and chemistry but compatibility is really interesting because a lot of people believe that relationships should be hard and they require hard work and a lot of people believe relationships should be easy and everything should just flow where have you kind of discovered your lens on that Spectrum so okay there's a there's a couple ways to look at it I think that most relationships and I'll even be more specific most relations that involve connection and true love are typically hard not because relationships have to be hard but because most people have been hurt by something in their life are holding on to past traumas haven't resolved it once they meet this individual that they feel so strongly about it is scary this is where things get difficult it's the difficultness in how do I handle this how do I manage this you'll have people feel like they're losing themselves but they're not losing themselves their true self is coming out and it's it's the self that's been hiding behind that wall they've been using for quote-unquote protection but I always say the same module to protect you the same as blocking your blessings so now they're being pulled from behind it it's it's makes them feel some kind of way and again people start to mishandle things you also have situations where people are getting bad advice like I'm gonna give one example um there's this uh book called The Game by Neil Strauss I don't know if you ever read that book yeah it was great Neil you know you you answer that world to pick up artistry we learned it and he was great with the women but then once he found that woman that he fell in love with all that stuff doesn't work anymore so you have a lot of men being taught how to handle women in general but they don't understand that's not how you handle the woman you truly love and so now again you have individuals who though they are truly in love with this person they constantly mishandle it with bad Guidance with fear and all these things this is what makes it hard and and I even think that a lot of times the people who are supposed to be together sometimes will have the hardest time getting together but I believe that once we're able to conquer that part of it and actually come together it's not hard yes it takes work I believe we have to be conscious and mindful of how we treat our partners how we show up being willing to listen but I think it's so much easier to do those things with someone you have a connection with and you're truly in love with it's gonna always feel ten times harder when you're in the wrong relationship and I would argue the vast majority of people are in the wrong relationship that's why they're seeing it be so difficult and when you see this whole it's easy typically it's easy because you have two people who are not digging deeper they're they're trying to write out that chemistry we talked about earlier for as long as possible all right so yeah it seems like it's great it's easy no issues but it doesn't really work like that because they're just not facing the reality of the situation so I think we we have to understand that there is going to be some bumps in the road because of all the things that people have been through but once we're able to come together and we know this is our partner this is who we want to share our life with it can get so much better yeah and do you do you think that people have just been given generally the wrong education on how to deal with another person in their life 100 yeah because unfortunately a lot of individuals are giving advice from a bit or hurt place there and and they're trying to disguise it as I'm just looking out for you no you you have inhaled and you cannot properly guide them in a positive and loving Manner and I think that a lot of people you know I always say it's funny how we'll spend a lot of time getting educated for the for the sake of our careers and business but we don't do the same for relationships and yet relationships arguably are even more important than that career business and even if it's not a romantic relationship just relationships in general your ability to coexist with others connect with others is extremely important if you want that business to succeed you have to learn how to establish business relationships there's no way around it so we have to learn how to talk to people listen to people you know what I'm saying and just make make things work when we come together with other individuals so I definitely think that we're just lacking in a lot of education and again too many because there's so many voices on the internet now there's just so much bad advice being given and and the individuals giving it they may be giving like let's say 80 of the advice is accurate but it's that 20 that's completely off that can derail everything and that's the stuff that people are gravitating to and this is causing a lot of problems can you give us some example of some of the like not specific people or anything like that I just mean like could you give example of bad advice and what about it is bad or unhealthy for people to try and put into practice okay so one thing I heard recently was an individual told uh said some of the best advice you can give to men is to not fall in love you know basically just find a woman you want to be with and kind of keep it there the reason why I view that as horrible advice is because you sit down with any man who's lived enough life they will all be able to say there's been at least one time they fail deeply for a woman all right the problem isn't falling deep before a woman the problem is we don't know how to handle it once we get there the problem is because we're not accustomed to handling and processing our emotions a certain kind of way and being this vulnerable we don't understand what's going to be required of us in that moment we also kind of lose sight of because I'm a big believer in masculine and feminine energy and I believe that if she was attracted to you because of that masculine energy that you give off and now you become this emotional wreck because you don't know how to handle all these feelings you have for her well you start to become less attractive to her and it's not that it's not fixable it's fixable but again a lack of understanding and awareness derails the situation so rather than telling men don't fall in love because it's inevitable let's teach them how we walk in love how we make what I call Loving in your masculine how you maintain that energy and still be able to pour into that woman in a way that allows relationship to flourish yeah and how does that work when I think obviously a lot of people in that example that you're giving if if the person is attracted to someone because of their masculine energy but at the same time they want them to be empathetic and compassionate and kind which are generally seen as more feminine energy how does that person balance the two or is that is that not how you're explaining is that no it's about balance so we have to understand we all have masculine and feminine of course within us I'm a Believer in one must be your dominant energy the other is the one you tap into when necessary so as a man you can walk in your masculine and in those moments tap into those things but you can't just stay there all the time all right you can't just become this needy emotional God that's not going to work in the vast majority of cases and so what happens is there's this messaging that's being thrown out there that women don't like good guys I don't believe that's what it is I believe that women become less attracted when you don't know how to exude and walk in your masculine energy it's and and we're hiding behind the label of good guy you can be a good guy and still exude masculine energy and that's the thing and we also think that oh they like bad boys no if you look deeper it's really the masculine energy that that quote-unquote bad boy exudes but what they desire is a mixture of both the same way that we would want a mixture of both we would want a loving sweet woman family woman whatever or and if you're a guy who wants a mask and woman cool but you don't want her to be just that you know you want her to have the ability to tap into that other side when necessary I think we all desire that balance in our partner and I think it's healthy and if we just learn how to maintain it and how to nurture it we would see greater success in relationships yeah what are some of the skills with with mastering that energy that you think we're missing out on and balancing that energy and knowing when to be which and because the reason why it's hard is I think we live in a binary world right like you feel like you have to choose like you're either a bad boy or you're a good girl you are a doer or you're a thinker you're uh winner or you're a loser right like we think like that and some people go okay you need to be masculine or I can be feminine and I I definitely relate to what you were saying like I believe that there is a lot about me that is massively masculine in energy using that language and terminology my drive my ambition how I work my strategic mind and at the same time I consider myself to have a lot of great feminine energy and qualities where it comes to like empowering others and nurturing and the ability to hold deep compassionate space and be empathetic which are all powerful qualities for for everyone right Beyond gender they're powerful qualities and I appreciate and it's taken a long time to know when to be which and it's still and I still make mistakes right there's still sometimes like I should have been more assertive I should have been more affectionate so we live in a world that finds it hard to hold two opposing ideas at the same time yeah we don't know how to do that in any sphere of life let alone within ourselves so what are some of the skills that we can learn in order to nurture both those energies in a healthy way inside of ourselves so I think one it's going to require a lot of if you're already in a relationship it's going to boil down to a lot of transparency and communication you know her if you're that man trying to understand that woman and when you can walk in those two energies her being willing to be honest and open about you know what this was too much over here or I needed some of this over here and in time you're going to become more aware and understanding it's going to be like second nature to you you won't have to overthink it and I think part of it is not overthinking it it's kind of like being ourselves but understanding that we have to learn when this is doing too much and vice versa I also think that in reality for a lot of men especially uh when we're talking about relationships and kind of losing that masculine energy the the underlying issue is fear all right when we become so afraid of losing this woman we lose ourselves and so a lot of men now fall into this very feminine needy space because they're just afraid we have to learn that listen like to me I feel if your partner thinks you're never gonna walk away from them no matter what they do you've lost that's that's a horrible place to be in we have to get to a place where we both understand that as long as we show up the way that we need to show up for each other we have each other's back we will be here but neither of us will tolerate an unhealthy relationship and someone who blatantly does not want to work on making this better I would want my the woman I'm with to feel that way and I need to feel that way once we understand that and you have the confidence of I can walk away if I have to that shifts your energy right there in itself and now you don't find yourself falling into that place where again you start to look a lot more unattractive or for some men they become yes men in their relationships thinking that makes her happy that's turning her off she doesn't want you to be her yes man she wants you to stand up for yourself sometimes give your opinion give your perspective she wants to be able to you know if anything be able to have discussions with you about these things not just you say whatever you want whatever you want whatever you want over time it becomes a problem so I think that once we conquer that fear once we create a space where we can talk about these moments and not feel some kind of way I think sometimes men are not they struggle with taking the criticism from their partner men and women we we all do when we feel when we have actual feelings for someone you know we don't care about you it's not as big of a deal but we're emotionally invested we're more sensitive to it but we have to understand that these criticisms are for the sake of making things better and strengthening this relationship so once we can get to that place it's going to be so much easier to grow in it and then I think it's just a matter of understanding that it's this balance isn't just for your relationship so look at it like from a sports perspective if I'm on a basketball team there may be moments where I need to take the lead and recognize all right everyone else is down someone needs to step up this is my moment and then there's other moments where I realize okay let's say we already have a team captain let me show them that I can follow serve do what needs to be done so that the team can win it's just becoming aware of what the moment requires you know and again I think the more in tune we get the more in tune we get with ourselves and the more in tune we get with our partner the easier it becomes to find that balance that's the challenge right the challenge is just how much patience we have with ourselves and others to realize that you walked into an imbalance unbalanced situation and now it's like how much patience how much time are we going to give it to get to that because the challenge is I think we walk into a situation thinking it's perfect whereas we should be walking into a relationship knowing it's imperfect absolutely and we're going to learn and figure it out together and I think that's what sets us up for failure is because we walk into it going it's perfect and deep down we know it isn't but somehow we gloss over it whereas I find when I know we're gonna fight when I know we're gonna argue and I know there's going to be disagreements that sets me up to develop the skills I need in order to navigate those things yes but if I assume like oh we're never gonna fight and I always get that right we always meet someone who goes to I mean a friend who goes to me Jay we never fight I'm like how long have you been together because I don't I don't know anyone who never fights I get that no one has to get to like yeah the heights of fights yeah I did that I did that it doesn't have to be a heated fight but I don't know anyone who doesn't disagree there you go all right right I think that's important for people to understand yeah there's a difference yes you have some individuals out there that'll say arguing is normal it's healthy and to me it's like listen if we're talking about arguing where we're now Crossing disrespectful lines negative lines you know the way that we the tone we take with each other all these things that's not healthy yes it may happen you should be prepared for that but it does let's not normalize it just gonna keep doing this and it's it is what it is but you're right to to be with each other long enough and never have a disagreement that's extremely rare okay extremely rare and I do think that again as you mentioned we have to be ready for those moments we have to understand and going back to how we find that balance especially as men and even for women it's recognizing so for example if my partner is in a very heated moment let's say she's in her masculine right now all right she's getting rough well meeting her with more masculine is probably going to only make things worse yeah this is the time for me to be compassionate go to her hold her calm her down bring her peace in that moment you see because it we need to balance each other out same thing on the flip side if I'm all heated and I'm I'm extra passionate and then my woman now comes with that same energy that's it now where button has this is her moment to say no let me now be the one to soften the moment up bring that Sweetness in there and everybody calms down so it's learning how to feed off of each other and recognize okay they're over here let me bring it back over here and now we can work from that point and we're both good the problem is that we all see compassion and sweetness and kindness in those moments as a weakness we don't want to be that person because we see that as losing we see that as giving in we see that as us losing our power and strength in a relationship if we become the comforter or if we become the carer right like that's that's a perception that is the perception and we have to change that that is the power position so who is more powerful the person that lets the energy dictate them how they're going to react or the person that brings the energy and dictates how they're going to make this situation play out so if I'm coming in to calm it down and being all sweet because I'm trying to bring peace here I'm in the power position I'm not losing anything I'm gonna gain more peace and happiness and Harmony if I succeed in what I'm trying to do so we have to get out of that mindset of this makes us weaker and that is the big key of it that's a big problem that for a lot of women who struggle with their feminine energy that's a big issue where they feel that being feminine is weakness it's what got them taken advantage of and got them hurt but I always say it's not the feminine energy that's the problem it's who you give it to do they respect it did they honor it you know it's the same thing as a man does she respect your masculine if she doesn't then that might just be a sign you're with the wrong person but don't stop being that guy because the woman who's best for you is going to need that in those moments that that's exactly what it is is that when people have been their best selves for the wrong person that person brings out the worst in them yes right like when someone's been their best loving kindness self but someone took advantage of it that person now thinks next time I've got to be aggressive I've got to be you know powerful I've got to be strong in this way and I feel like that's kind of what most people are dealing with we know that is that you're just dealing with a wounded version of someone yes not a healed version of someone but I think people struggle to trust again and again especially when they see the same patterns in the person they're weird and I guess the question is why do we keep making the same mistakes because I feel like a lot of us keep dating the same people yeah and there's a part of us that also just keeps closing off or being more wounded it's almost like if you cut yourself you now walk around with your hand over that you don't want to get cut again and then if you lead it off and it gets cut even deeper now you're even more conscious of that and so I find that people are doing that where they're closing their heart more and more because it's been so misused and abused and I understand that I understand people don't want to be abused and misused but I guess the question is how do people find people that they know respect them so that they can be their best version or be a better version of themselves so you know you can't drive out Darkness with more Darkness you can't expose someone who's gonna hurt you by being someone who's closed off and holding back yourself we have it's kind of what we were just talking about we have to look at being vulnerable loving and open as not just well I'm setting myself to be hurt no it's how you expose people faster if I come with that energy and you cannot respect it match it then I know you don't belong here but if I hold back I give you a free pass to hold back so now we have two individuals who are hiding behind their walls because it's comfortable there but you can't really see what's what do we really have in front of us those walls are blinding you and you can't properly evaluate the situation so one we we got to get to a place of healing from our past so that we're not just walking around with the hand over the cut no you you gotta let the cup breathe you gotta let it heal all right holding on put your hand on there is delaying the process and like you said all that's gonna happen is when you finally take your hand off but you're taking it off with the wrong person and you haven't learned see what I want people to realize is your actions weren't the problem meaning you being loving sweet kind compassionate wasn't the problem it was the person separate those two things that you don't stop doing the good things now granted are there levels to this to where we have to learn again if I'm thinking about a man if you got so deeply emotional to where you kind of lost your your masculine energy and you became very needy okay you can say all right I need to continue to be loving but I know I have to learn how to draw a line I have to learn how not to cross that moment and again you only crossed it because you were unhealthy to begin with you only cross it because you were afraid to begin with once you get to that place where you're healthy and confident you won't find yourself Crossing that line anymore yeah you won't tolerate certain things anymore so we have to heal we have to be confident and we have to let our light shine so that we can expose what's in front of us easier that's a brilliant answer I I love the differentiation between how sharing your light is not the problem the person's the problem because we yeah we start to doubt whether being a good person a loving person is actually what wins in the world yeah and the truth is that it does win but it has to win with someone who can receive it and absolutely hold that space with you and share that space with you and I find that a lot of people keep giving that energy to the wrong person because we feel we can make them better right like there's this feeling of like I can change this person I can make them better I can heal them there's some of us want to fix people yeah and that means we assume the person we're with is broken and I think this is such a subconscious thing like if you're always critiquing if you're always picking at stuff with your partner chances are you don't think they're great like just now you think there's some issues with them when you think that you can fix them and they're broken tell us about that angle where now we're almost we've talked about being the loving and kind person but sometimes we're being the person that thinks we're loving and kind because we want to improve someone but that person doesn't want to improve one big problem is that what's really driving people to pick that individual is that by being the one that can upgrade you improve you I have more value here by having more value I have a false sense of security you have to appreciate me you're less likely to walk away you're less likely to cheat because you're lucky to have me I feel like I'm the prize here but those situations never really work because again you're choosing someone that is not capable of pouring into you the way you need you're basing this off of what you could do for them and that's not sustainable and you're choosing them because again you have more emotional control here what happens to so many people especially women it's something that I call the unhealthy love cycle of women where women in their first love experience outside of any childhood trauma may have experienced they're their most loving they're just out there they go all the way in but that typically happens at a younger age at an age where men are not mature enough to handle those kind of emotions that level of commitment so on and so forth so she gets hurt after she gets hurt her moment is saying to herself I will never let this happen to me again so now the woman starts to consciously or subconsciously choose men who are I don't want to say lower than hurt but essentially a man who does not take her there he's good enough to be with but I'm not that vulnerable with him he can't hurt me like that first love hurt me and so that Dynamic usually leads to picking that person I can fix I can make better who will appreciate and respect me but again it doesn't work out and many times you'll see these same situations the guy will move on to cheat on her not because and I have to say this because some women think yeah he's just being a man no not because he's a man but because you chose a man that you could never be the woman that he needed and he could never be the man that you needed once he kind of either gets what he needs from you to build himself up or the Smoke Clears from him being infatuated with you he starts to realize I'm not getting everything that I desire and now you building him up has brought him more attention from other women so now the the difference between what you're not giving him and what someone else is willing to give him becomes way clearer now the Temptation gets way stronger and he ends up doing something or she ends up cheating as well because he's safe but he doesn't fulfill her he doesn't satisfy her he he doesn't excite her in any kind of way and that's why I always said earlier like the safe choice is almost always the wrong choice but that is a function of people trying to choose these fix or uppers because they think it's going to give them some leverage there it's leverage that's it yeah it's leverage yeah how do you know when it's time to go like how do you know when it's like I feel like this is a common question where it's like how do you know when it's just I've tried everything we've tried together tried our best maybe we went to therapy maybe we got a coach or maybe you know maybe we didn't do those things how do I just know that I feel like I need to go but I'm scared of being alone yeah I'm I'm scared of dealing with the reality that I put in a lot of energy and I feel like you said this earlier but a lot of people stay in something for a lot longer than they should because they'd rather not be alone yes they'd rather not face reality they'd rather not lose two years of their life they'd rather lose two more thinking that this this should stay like how do you know when it's time to go let me first say this yes I think I think Society needs to change their thinking as far as Letting Go doesn't always mean it can't work out later it's just that it cannot work out under these circumstances all right because some people say well I feel like they're the one okay maybe they are but maybe the time is not right and it's letting go that will allow you both to do what needs to be done in your own personal lives that would allow you to come back together and have something way more amazing so that's number one thing to consider but outside of that it's when one if that person is unwilling to put in the work necessary it's time to go there's like so many times I'll I'll have a video go up about communication and someone will comment saying I've tried talking to him and he doesn't want to talk to me and in my head I'm like why are you still with them if he refuses to talk to you you've already tried there's nothing else to do but people will let it Linger on and continue why they can why they consistently complain or unhappy about this specific issue it's not gonna magically get better they're not gonna just change it just because all of a sudden they see oh it needs to change no if they're fighting it now they have no reason to change it and what people have to understand you know especially with this whole trying to fix people up healing and facing your traumas is one of the hardest things for people to do so if they already have you in their life they're essentially getting the incentive or the benefit of relationship without having to do the deeper work it's almost like if I'm at a job and the job says you need to have a master's degree to work here but we're going to hire you anyway and give you time to get that master's degree if getting that degree is super hard to you you're gonna drag that out as long as possible yeah you may never get the degree until they fire you when they fire you and you realize oh my gosh if I don't do this I'll never get this person back I'll never get this opportunity back now they might go and get it because it's very tough to walk down the path of the healing process so if they're not willing to work on it you guys have already discussed it and I think that's a big thing because there's a lot of relationships that end and the couples don't even know what the real issue was so the communication they'll say well we talked about no you guys argued you guys lashed out there wasn't a clear communication as to what the problem was what is expected how do we go about this if you've done that and I believe one of the most effective ways to do that is through a letter because I feel like verbal communication of deep issues and concerns they typically don't go well you know people get distracted they forget what they want to say the other person gets defensive they're not they're listening to rebuttal not to understand but when there's a letter involved it gives you time to get everything out you can you can evaluate your tone leave no stone unturned and now they have an opportunity to process it on their time to really take it in and then you guys can come together and discuss the letter and now it's so much easier to stay on point and get everything covered if we've done that and they're still unwilling or there's still no progress It's Time to Go yeah that's great that's great advice and I for me that's the biggest one it's like you can't make something last if only one person's working on it you can't keep hoping and waiting and wishing and and like you said that ending doesn't mean forever and often I found that two people need to grow individually to be able to grow collectively and we're forcing growing together so hard but we need space to grow and if you can't grow together chances are you need to grow apart in order to see whether you grow together again or grow for someone else and all of those options are okay but we put so much pressure on people to grow together that they grow apart yeah and actually if they chose to grow apart and grow separately they could come back together if they learn the lessons and I think that's a mistake too though sometimes people think I'm gonna go learn this lesson for this person I meet a lot of people they're like okay they broke up with me because I wasn't XYZ now I'm gonna go become XYZ to win them back yeah and I always find I'm just like well no you should go become XYZ if you think you were missing XYZ but not to win them back because you don't know what they're gonna do what's your take on people trying to win people back so I 100 agree with you like if we're trying to learn or grow it needs to be for the benefit of who we are and just whoever we deal with so was almost like if I was a bad Communicator in this relationship I shouldn't learn to better communicate for that person I need to better communicate for whoever I'm going to be with if you can't see it in that light then maybe you're looking at the wrong thing my thing is this I think it all depends on what the details of the situation was what led to the breakup what were you overlooking what was missing are these fixable issues because a lot of people are trying to win back someone where the issues are not resolved so it's like what's the point of going back we're just going to go in the same cycle all over again they're letting this idea of I miss them I don't want to be without them blind them from the fact that you two did not get along well or you two don't want the same things or YouTube just whatever it is maybe there's a lack of sexual satisfaction I don't know why I feel the need to mention that but it happens a lot of times you have to stay focused on what led to the end and can this be corrected if it can cool but as you mentioned listen correcting it does not guarantee you they're coming back and even if they will come back you don't know when they may need so you may have figured yourself out in six months they might need a year and I would argue if you guys are truly meant for each other and at the end of the year you need a year too you're just overlooking some things and you're rushing the process because you want to get back to them yeah it's I've never found a situation where it was truly only one person who had problems and the other person was squeaky clean no no you thought you were but you got some stuff too you needed to correct of course so I think we have to be honest with ourselves and just keep striving to be better and rather than focus on winning them back just become the best you because if you do and there's a true connection there the opportunity will present itself again and you too will be able to make something of it and the struggle is that when people finally make that decision to break up or let go the study showed that the parts of your brain that are activated in a breakup are the same as detoxing from cocaine right like you're literally trying to detox so you can have a craving yeah for someone that's bad for you yeah or also it says that the areas of the brain that are activated in a breakup are the areas that are the same with physical pain so if someone like punching the stomach the reason why we say like my heart feels broken is because it literally feels like something's broken yeah so when you're going through a breakup when you're feeling the craving to be with that person again studies show that eight over eighty percent of people are looking at what their exes are doing on social media right probably through a Finster account or whatever but you have to you have to know what are some of the healthiest tips that you've given to people and the people that you've worked with that have genuinely helped people move through a breaker the first thing is to ask yourself again why was I even there why am I holding on to this individual again I think sometimes we get so blinded by just the experience or our desire to have this person for whatever reason that we Overlook what was really missing or why this could not work anyway what you'll also find is and I'm sure there's probably a study on it where if you if they broke up with you you ever see a situation it happens on TV a lot where the person could be like okay I'm gonna break up with my partner they're planning on it they've been practicing in their head right it took them a couple weeks to muster up the strength they're about to do it and then the partner breaks up with them yeah now it's oh my gosh I gotta get them back yeah so it's like you just forgot this whole time that was your plan yeah it just gave you the past to do it but now because we don't like to be the one being let go of now we're fighting hard to get it back yeah so we have to really not fall into these little traps that happen to us as human beings our brains just playing tricks on us or something where we confuse these emotions for oh my gosh I must really love them or even like you said you go into that detox and because you miss I always tell people no matter how bad the relationship was there's always good moments so if you're trying to break free you can't just let your brain focus on the good moments you have to remind yourself why this doesn't work but if you keep focusing on the good you start to make yourself think oh because I missed this good moment I must miss them and there's this quote that says sometimes you're not missing the person you're missing the feeling so you've got to be able to differentiate those two things so getting back to how we get over these breakups is recognizing why were we really there to begin with you know could this actually work the next thing is you know I'm a huge believer that a lot of times a breakup is a blessing in disguise even if there is a chance that you two can work together or this is the one for you you may have needed this time to re-evaluate and get things in order something is obviously wrong even if you it may be something as deep as because I've seen situations where everything was going amazingly well on the surface and the person broke up with them let's say the woman lets go of the man so to the man that's really confusing but what it was is that that woman she had not healed from her past relationships and this relationship being so good was scaring her and what happens is the the better you are the scarier it becomes for her she's looking for something to be wrong she has to validate her fear somehow wow when she can't find it she'll either sabotage the relationship or she'll run from it So to that man it may seem like this is so unfair which yeah it sucks but if this woman didn't break up with you now you were inevitably gonna face this same ending but at a worse time yeah all right this is still best that is happening now at least if she can go do what she needs to do there's a chance for this to come back around later but it's hard for us to see it in the moment so I think just really we also have to focus on our healing whenever a breakup happens the mistake we make is that we think it's about healing from the breakup no it's healing from everything you've been through you've probably been sleeping under the rug your childhood trauma for years maybe the last two three relationships whatever it is so and and not healing from those things is contributing to your struggle to get past this breakup and contributing to why you even chose this person to begin with I'm a huge believer that if you haven't healed you are 90 likely to choose the wrong person yeah it's just too difficult to pick that person that you truly love and can truly love you and accept that level of vulnerability when you have still not resolved your past traumas and past hurts yeah so to me that's the next big thing is just focus on your healing process because in that process you will also be able to see more clearly if this is really for you or not like walking around unhealed is like walking around with broken glasses you you can't see straight no matter how hard you try but healing will clear up your vision really really fast and now it'd be like oh wait a minute I didn't belong there yeah you know thank God the broke breakup happened you know now I'm in a better place I move forward so to me I think and I would say in addition to those things is just have an accountability partner whether that's friend coach therapist someone that can help keep you in check help remind you what you need to do someone that you know you have to talk to and update what's going on so you feel like okay I don't want to come back so I'm saying I'm doing the same thing over and over again it doesn't guarantee success but it helps it helps move the needle some so I would highly encourage that that one mindset you spoke about that that changes everything and it hit me today I was just thinking if we were just able in a moment to recognize that something painful now was going to be good for us in five years time that would change so many things in our life yes but we're so poor at dealing with current pain yeah even if it means future joy that we just can't accept that I have to go through this like in everything right like knowing that someone breaking up with you just saved you 10 years of a wasted life is so much more than knowing you're gonna have to go through a few months of pain and 10 months of pain maybe it's a bit longer maybe it's two three years but we just have to get our head around that that sometimes the best things that happen to you are protecting more of your life than the pain that they're causing you need the Peace of knowing I did what I needed to do that's it yeah because anytime you feel like well maybe I could have done this but I could have done that leaves the door open for doubt do it well exactly so it's like and that's why I'm such a big believer in you know there's people who say well once they're done they're done they'll just move on and I'm like no no Express Yourself get everything off your chest because you don't need anything to linger and you questioning well what if I did this different no make sure speak your full piece and now you can say all right I did what I had to do it is what it is I move forward and I mean it makes it easier it may not make it a hundred percent you know not an issue whatsoever but it's gonna be easier and also also for me that's why like my relationship with God is so important because that's where I find my peace in dealing with a situation that doesn't work out the way I want to I always tell myself okay if this isn't working out God has something better for me you know if this is happening right now there's a purpose because I know if I followed his guidance throughout this process there's no need for me to question why is this the current outcome there's a reason for this and I've been through these things enough times to see as you mentioned the reward is going to come it may come next week it may come years from now it will come and I'll be able to see how it all connected yeah Stefan it's been incredible talking to you man this has been such a great back-to-back flowing conversation uh we end every on purpose episode with the final five which is like a rapid fire which means every question has to be answered with one word to one sentence maximum okay so here are your final five the first question is what's the best relationship advice you've ever received or heard or given it is to love fully lovefully and be yourself because as I said earlier that's how you will expose quicker who is for you and who isn't for you second question what is the worst relationship advice you've ever heard or received get under someone to get over someone [Laughter] uh question number three uh how would you defin	limit all the internet stuff just really go deeper within yourself spend more time alone spend more time you know thinking and processing you will learn a lot because again a lot of it is it isn't a problem of we don't know ourselves we are not aware and we're not willing to accept and once we allow ourselves to do those two things become aware and then accept it we become free yeah I I mean I agree with you I think that I've always been a big proponent of solitude to understand who you are because as soon as you have another person you now have another person's opinions you have to filter yes as soon as you have another person in front of you you have another person's judgments to filter and so now you can't even say what you truly think about something because you're constantly thinking what does that person think about me and my beliefs and so understanding your beliefs in solitude allows you to be really clear about what your values and beliefs are and and that's what it's there for I think when people get into if we switch to compatibility again the idea we talked about the difference between connection and chemistry but compatibility is really interesting because a lot of people believe that relationships should be hard and they require hard work and a lot of people believe relationships should be easy and everything should just flow where have you	8	4	6	limit all the internet stuff just really go deeper within yourself spend more time alone spend more time you know thinking and processing you will learn a lot because again a lot of it is it isn't a problem of we don't know ourselves we are not aware and we're not willing to accept and once we allow ourselves to do those two things become aware and then accept it we become free	I I mean I agree with you I think that I've always been a big proponent of solitude to understand who you are because as soon as you have another person you now have another person's opinions you have to filter yes as soon as you have another person in front of you you have another person's judgments to filter and so now you can't even say what you truly think about something because you're constantly thinking what does that person think about me and my beliefs and so understanding your beliefs in solitude allows you to be really clear about what your values and beliefs are and and that's what it's there for	8,4,9	7,3,8	8	4	9	7	3	8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPQBcb9wf8Q	4,056	mPQBcb9wf8Q	2023-03-27 00:00:00	you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you're wasting your time the best-selling author and host the number one Health and Wellness podcast on purpose with Jay Shetty what are the signs that someone deeply loves you because I feel like we live in this world where we're always wondering do they love me do they like me do they really like me are they really into me how do you know when you deeply love someone and when someone deeply loves you how do you even know so I'm gonna start with an answer that people probably won't expect to me the first key is do you truly love them because look at it like this to me a lot of people get caught up in infatuation um they have unhealthy attachments they have different motivations to why they decided this is the person that I want and that can make them feel like they're in love but to me true love flows both ways it's not a one-sided thing so when you can say I I'm not into them like that if we look deep into that situation I can almost guarantee what we'll find is infatuation attachment something else but when you can say no I feel it too I'm deeply in love with them I think that's your first key because without that nothing else matters because a lot of people are choosing Partners based off of what they love me so much so I assume it's safe here and this is a good choice to make but the safe choice is usually the wrong choice and a lot of these people select this individual thinking everything's going to be okay but because you're not really into them you can never be what they need and they were never truly what you needed which is why you never even got to that level with them so to choose them without first evaluating do you truly love them would not be wise yeah that's that's a great question and I think people struggle with that question too because I think we think of love as so many different things wrapped into one for example I could think I love someone because of how they treat me I could think I love someone because they have one quality that I really wish I had or I could love someone because I think that they're out of my league and they give me a bit of attention yeah and so what we think is love is so complex and so wide that we never stop to ask ourselves like what does love mean like what's the definition of love like how do I Define love so how do you define love and how do you encourage other people to create their definitions of Love well for me first off is always God is love and then when we take it from there love is about kindness compassion patience understanding a willingness to be selfless important to that individual but I think what's also important for people to understand is when we're trying to apply it to romantic relationships we have to understand that there's other ingredients that are necessary before we can move forward so you could love someone dearly but if they are not emotionally ready because maybe they haven't healed from their past maybe there's still some things that need to work out in their life then it wouldn't be time to move forward in a relationship with them and we have this bad habit of the minute we feel like there's love there we want to move forward exactly and as you mentioned we can get caught up sometimes in but we love them because of what they do for us but what are you prepared to do for them love is about giving all right so we have to ask ourselves okay do we know what their needs are are we willing to fulfill those needs because if not maybe this wasn't love maybe it just felt good in the moment maybe you got caught up in the hype and that's okay it happens to almost all of us if not all of us at some point in life but we have to just be real very clear with ourselves about what's really driving the intention right now but I think all those things I mentioned is what encompasses love of and that's like the foundation of it and then from there we have to look at some other things to see how we can move forward so many times like you you convince yourself something's love and what I find really interesting is that so many people fall in love too fast and no one wants to go for the slow patient understanding love which is what love requires you just said love is kind love is patient love is understanding those things take time I think those things take time to nurture and to to make sure that we're doing it correctly for each other so it's about learning each other's Love Languages and how we make it work in within that Dynamic I think also because so many people are not used to dealing with emotions at on that level being that vulnerable people mishandle it all right so it takes time for us to get to a place so we understand how to manage this and work through this however I think that I'm a huge believer in connection and I believe connection is like your spirit recognizing its match and it's very instant when you speak to couples who said they experience a connection they'll tell you first conversation first time meeting first date first week it was pretty fast so to me the the recognizing of something deeper being here can happen very quickly but how we now cultivate that and how we move forward is where we need to take our time and make sure we're not rushing and overlooking certain important issues that need to be discussed and addressed first to me it's the understanding of chemistry versus compatibility and the idea that there needs to be a spark there needs to be a connection that I feel with someone like you're saying on a deeper level but I find that I find that most people are not Adept and knowing whether the connection they feel with someone is deeper or physical yeah like I would say that it's easy to it you can often feel a spark with if you meet a lot of people you can feel a spot with a lot of people but that doesn't mean that they're the right person to build a relationship absolutely right yes so it's connection to me is a very rare occurrence right yes so I feel that people who've actually experienced it they can tell you maybe once in their life if you're lucky two times maybe all right but it's not this thing that happens with everybody whereas chemistry uh feeling of spark these things can happen with a lot of different people yeah so I do think there's there's this education that's needed to understand how we differentiate these things so that we don't confuse them because I see a lot of people take that chemistry and think oh this is it this is the one it's like but you had chemistry with the last five people why is this one the one and not them so I do think we have to be careful with that yeah I think so so we're on the same page there's three things there's connection on the deeper level there's chemistry which is like the spark on a more superficial level and then there's compatibility which is like what makes get lost and I can relate to that with my wife I definitely felt so I I'm one of those people who I kind of knew from the first few moments when I met my wife before she was my wife was like I was like yeah this is my person like I felt that way yeah for sure I felt that connection and there was chemistry there too but it had to be turned into compatibility in order to create a long lasting relationship we've been together for 10 years we're still learning building going through everything but that was a big part of it so that I can get behind is do you see it that way too or is there something different in so how do you see it believe it or not I used to make compatibility the least important but that was because I was looking at it the wrong way once I kind of looked at the definition again and compatibility is about two people coexisting in harmony yeah then I was like okay no you you have to have that I just I got caught up more so in like let's say a dating site says okay we're gonna decide who's compatible so I view compatible as like an on the paper it looks good it's supposed to match but you can have a lot of people who are supposed to be compatible and it doesn't work absolutely so I think that it's compatibility is that add-on once we have the connection and the chemistry now we have to create that Harmony which is the compatibility yes I agree with you and and it is interesting how that word compatibility is thrown around and you're so right that compatibility on paper doesn't mean compatibility in real life exactly and to me compatibility really has another word inside of it which is like adaptability and that deeper understanding of an individual where you know how much you're willing to adapt around certain parts of the relationship but we'll get to that I think a lot of people like you know and and that's where we got into this conversation around what is slow a lot of people are waiting to feel like is this person wasting my time are they the one and so they don't have a deeper connection maybe they had that spark of chemistry and now that's kind of subsided how do you know if someone's wasting your time how do you know if you're letting yourself be used or wasted in that way so to me again I think it always starts with self and you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you because just use an example let's say you're a woman and the only reason why you're holding on to this guy is because he's a nice guy you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you figure let me try to make it work you're wasting your time this is where you're setting yourself up for disaster every single time so if it's not born out of a true connection love a genuine desire you really like this individual of course there's always things we have to work through but is the foundation strong enough for us to say okay we can make something special here and I think once we are honest with ourselves that kind of helps answer the question because sometimes we get so caught up trying to animal lies the other individual that is like we get in our heads and now we're missing the mark on what's really important here and we can't always say for sure what's going on with them I will say that in general if this person isn't willing to talk about things they're wasting your time if they're not willing to address or correct things that have been talked about they're wasting your time if you guys aren't on the same page about what you want and where you want to go in life wasting time so there are some things I think we can just look at and say listen this is pointless here but a lot of times and I have to say this especially for women women's intuition is extremely powerful I'm a huge believer in it and I feel like women know very early this isn't it but they rationalize reasons to convince themselves to give this man a chance and this again is a waste of time because it just doesn't work I've seen people turn what should have been maybe a couple weeks of dating into years of being married to someone they were not happy with all because they did not listen to themselves from the beginning they knew what it was but they just could not accept it for what it was yeah and I love that point on intuition it's almost like when a relationship finally ends a lot of us think to ourselves I knew they weren't right yeah like I knew it I knew that they weren't the one but you just didn't listen to that part of yourself yes so so let's break it down for people let's help people out we started talking about three very important words connection which you defined chemistry which we've defined in compatibility which we've defined how do people know the difference between connection and chemistry when they meet someone because I find that the science shows that you're experiencing dopamine and cortisol at the same times you're experiencing the reward chemical and stress chemical at the same time which gives you that chemistry feeling which is the feeling of butterflies in your stomach or like do they like me are they into me what should I wear that kind of feeling but then you're talking about a deeper connection how do you hear the difference because I think a lot of us just get swept up in the feeling of I'm So Into that person they're so into me how do you know so I think one is are you even being yourself or can you be yourself with this individual if if you're presenting your representative then this is not a real connection this is them falling for that person that you're presenting but that's not real so to me you have you should be already being yourself but with that person you have a connection with it's a more natural flow we don't have to force it we just feel so much more comfortable around them I think in addition to that is when you when you find yourself all caught up in the moment and caught up in that chemistry again you have to ask yourself what am I really attaching myself to what about what do I really like about this individual what I find is that when it's really about chemistry we're still on the surface you don't really know about them yet you just know you guys had a good time maybe you had fun at this event you guys were able to talk about a lot of different things which is great which is gonna also be important if there is a connection however do you even know what college did they want do you know what kind of Life they want to live you know are you guys really on the same page I think connection is our paths align our purpose is align so for us to align we have to have a deeper understanding of where we're headed and can we head there together so so that's why I think though you may feel it or you may feel like you're feeling it you have to do your due diligence to dig deeper to find out okay is this just I got caught up on the surface or there is something real here yeah and I think once we ask enough questions because I think that's the other big problem we have this experience where we feel this chemistry we're so excited and now we're afraid to ask questions because we don't want to blow up the fantasy yes you know what I'm saying we're just like no no I want to keep believing this is great so let me not ask anything let me not run this person away let me not rock the boat but that's going to be what tells us if this is real or not yes I think you're I think you've hit on something there like we're so scared of losing someone that we're okay with not asking important questions and discovering important truths that actually define whether this relationship is going to last absolutely and that is ultimately going back to your point earlier that is ultimately you not being yourself right you're losing yourself scared that you're going to lose the other person so you're okay with not being yourself do you think it's ever okay this is a funny question I think but I have to ask you because I think it's a healthy discussion do you think it's ever okay to present different sides of yourself in order to attract someone or do you think that you're ultimately setting yourself up for failure in a relationship almost like I think a lot of people they may not become someone completely different but I think a lot of people are like oh I'm gonna show my smart side because it will attract this person or I'm gonna show my this side because they're like that are you saying any of that kind of molding is unhealthy or do you think there's room for that I think anything that is not sustainable is unhealthy so look at it as if I'm a man and I'm meeting this woman I want to impress her so I'm like okay I'm gonna try to spend all my money take a nice five-star restaurant all these things but deep inside I prefer a more simple lifestyle you know I don't like all that extra stuff okay that's horrible that's a sale for disaster that's unhealthy because you can't sustain what you're presenting to that individual that's gonna draw them in so whatever it is another like common example is you'll have women who love to communicate they want to be able to talk to you every single day but because they're afraid of coming off a certain kind of way they'll hold back on their communication so now they'll make it seem like they're okay with talking every now and then we don't always have to text and then this guy falls for that he falls for this low standard I won't call low standard but not having such a high expectation of him when it comes to communication then he finally gets with the woman her true self is going to come out at some point no one can suppress their true self forever it comes out and now it's like what is this I did not sign up for this now we're fighting now we're stressed because you want him to call you more he was used to you not being worried about it so much that's why it's going to always not work out so it's extremely unhealthy unless we're presenting a side of us that is truly us and we can sustain it you've hit on something again that that at the beginning of relationships we often display unrealistic standards and we set those yes and then when things shift and now you're back in reality again the other person's like but wait a minute I thought you were really into me and I even went through that with my wife when we first met I was able to spend pretty much every day with her because I didn't have a job and so I was looking for work I was applying I would go see her at her College every day and I would spend the day with her and I'd be in the library applying for jobs while she was studying yeah and I could see it every day and I think I saw every day potentially for like six months maybe every single day five days a week at least and then when I got a job that wasn't the case anymore because I was at work now and I'd set this unrealistic expectation that we could see each other all the time and even in the beginning I would see her all the time because I'd spend time with her family but we wouldn't spend time with my family because I hadn't told my family yet and so now that my family knew we were trying to split the time and all of a sudden it was like wait a minute we used to spend time at my house and so even in little things like that it took a bit of adapting because I'd set a false standard in our relationship and then thankfully my wife was adapting and she understood and she got it and it was fine but I think for so many people you set unrealistic expectations in who you are yes and that's hard to come back from absolutely yeah and that's why it's so important for us to know who we are so that we can present the real from the jump you know because again A lot of times people you know this idea that we're always changing yes I do think we're always evolving but some of the big shifts that you see are is not because that's just the way life is it's because you did take the time to figure yourself out first and then you got with this person and now you want them to adjust now thank God for you she was able to adjust but there's a lot of people that they can't handle that yeah and now everything falls apart from there so that's why yeah we have to be very careful with what we're presenting from the beginning yeah it's I I agree with you on that that we think people change but actually they just start to understand themselves exactly they went from being completely unconscious about who they were you met an unconscious version of a person yeah and now you think they're changing but they just became conscious of who they are absolutely and but the thing is Stefan as you know like Society doesn't encourage that time of getting to know yourself right when you're young you're not trained in how to think about who you want to be you're trained in thinking about what you want to I do it's about your job it's about your career you're not thinking about who you are as a human being or as a person so how do we in this Society where understanding who you are is not clear it's not encouraged where where does one start or where have you kind of found great insights in trying to discover who we are I would love to see more parents encouraging their children to explore how they're feeling about who they are like what I have found is a lot of people who let's say I I had one client where she wanted to be an actress when she was a little kid uh but parents kind of push in a different direction now she's like a social worker but her desire is still to be an actress like the things that they they wanted to do they they want to do as an adult now you can find back in their childhood in a lot of cases so I feel like too many people have stifled their children's growth in certain areas with limited ideas of well this can't make money or this wouldn't be a good look for the family or whatever the case may be it's like no let them walk in it and see for themselves if that's really where they belong outside of that for me I think the big thing is getting in tune spiritually I'm just a huge believer in that I feel like me finding myself was when I went into what I call my Wilderness period I kind of just shut everything off that I was doing because I used to be all over having fun partying all these different things things and then God kind of slapped me upside my head and I had to like really pull away from everything and go deeper from within and it felt like a process of breaking me down to build me right back up and that's when I start to see things clearer because what I realized is the world is filled with distractions and it's the distractions why we can't see ourselves for who we really are if we simply shut off the distractions long enough you will learn a lot so even if someone just took a year off don't worry you know limit the TV you're watching limit the music you're listening to limit all the internet stuff just really go deeper within yourself spend more time alone spend more time you know thinking and processing you will learn a lot because again a lot of it is it isn't a problem of we don't know ourselves we are not aware and we're not willing to accept and once we allow ourselves to do those two things become aware and then accept it we become free yeah I I mean I agree with you I think that I've always been a big proponent of solitude to understand who you are because as soon as you have another person you now have another person's opinions you have to filter yes as soon as you have another person in front of you you have another person's judgments to filter and so now you can't even say what you truly think about something because you're constantly thinking what does that person think about me and my beliefs and so understanding your beliefs in solitude allows you to be really clear about what your values and beliefs are and and that's what it's there for I think when people get into if we switch to compatibility again the idea we talked about the difference between connection and chemistry but compatibility is really interesting because a lot of people believe that relationships should be hard and they require hard work and a lot of people believe relationships should be easy and everything should just flow where have you kind of discovered your lens on that Spectrum so okay there's a there's a couple ways to look at it I think that most relationships and I'll even be more specific most relations that involve connection and true love are typically hard not because relationships have to be hard but because most people have been hurt by something in their life are holding on to past traumas haven't resolved it once they meet this individual that they feel so strongly about it is scary this is where things get difficult it's the difficultness in how do I handle this how do I manage this you'll have people feel like they're losing themselves but they're not losing themselves their true self is coming out and it's it's the self that's been hiding behind that wall they've been using for quote-unquote protection but I always say the same module to protect you the same as blocking your blessings so now they're being pulled from behind it it's it's makes them feel some kind of way and again people start to mishandle things you also have situations where people are getting bad advice like I'm gonna give one example um there's this uh book called The Game by Neil Strauss I don't know if you ever read that book yeah it was great Neil you know you you answer that world to pick up artistry we learned it and he was great with the women but then once he found that woman that he fell in love with all that stuff doesn't work anymore so you have a lot of men being taught how to handle women in general but they don't understand that's not how you handle the woman you truly love and so now again you have individuals who though they are truly in love with this person they constantly mishandle it with bad Guidance with fear and all these things this is what makes it hard and and I even think that a lot of times the people who are supposed to be together sometimes will have the hardest time getting together but I believe that once we're able to conquer that part of it and actually come together it's not hard yes it takes work I believe we have to be conscious and mindful of how we treat our partners how we show up being willing to listen but I think it's so much easier to do those things with someone you have a connection with and you're truly in love with it's gonna always feel ten times harder when you're in the wrong relationship and I would argue the vast majority of people are in the wrong relationship that's why they're seeing it be so difficult and when you see this whole it's easy typically it's easy because you have two people who are not digging deeper they're they're trying to write out that chemistry we talked about earlier for as long as possible all right so yeah it seems like it's great it's easy no issues but it doesn't really work like that because they're just not facing the reality of the situation so I think we we have to understand that there is going to be some bumps in the road because of all the things that people have been through but once we're able to come together and we know this is our partner this is who we want to share our life with it can get so much better yeah and do you do you think that people have just been given generally the wrong education on how to deal with another person in their life 100 yeah because unfortunately a lot of individuals are giving advice from a bit or hurt place there and and they're trying to disguise it as I'm just looking out for you no you you have inhaled and you cannot properly guide them in a positive and loving Manner and I think that a lot of people you know I always say it's funny how we'll spend a lot of time getting educated for the for the sake of our careers and business but we don't do the same for relationships and yet relationships arguably are even more important than that career business and even if it's not a romantic relationship just relationships in general your ability to coexist with others connect with others is extremely important if you want that business to succeed you have to learn how to establish business relationships there's no way around it so we have to learn how to talk to people listen to people you know what I'm saying and just make make things work when we come together with other individuals so I definitely think that we're just lacking in a lot of education and again too many because there's so many voices on the internet now there's just so much bad advice being given and and the individuals giving it they may be giving like let's say 80 of the advice is accurate but it's that 20 that's completely off that can derail everything and that's the stuff that people are gravitating to and this is causing a lot of problems can you give us some example of some of the like not specific people or anything like that I just mean like could you give example of bad advice and what about it is bad or unhealthy for people to try and put into practice okay so one thing I heard recently was an individual told uh said some of the best advice you can give to men is to not fall in love you know basically just find a woman you want to be with and kind of keep it there the reason why I view that as horrible advice is because you sit down with any man who's lived enough life they will all be able to say there's been at least one time they fail deeply for a woman all right the problem isn't falling deep before a woman the problem is we don't know how to handle it once we get there the problem is because we're not accustomed to handling and processing our emotions a certain kind of way and being this vulnerable we don't understand what's going to be required of us in that moment we also kind of lose sight of because I'm a big believer in masculine and feminine energy and I believe that if she was attracted to you because of that masculine energy that you give off and now you become this emotional wreck because you don't know how to handle all these feelings you have for her well you start to become less attractive to her and it's not that it's not fixable it's fixable but again a lack of understanding and awareness derails the situation so rather than telling men don't fall in love because it's inevitable let's teach them how we walk in love how we make what I call Loving in your masculine how you maintain that energy and still be able to pour into that woman in a way that allows relationship to flourish yeah and how does that work when I think obviously a lot of people in that example that you're giving if if the person is attracted to someone because of their masculine energy but at the same time they want them to be empathetic and compassionate and kind which are generally seen as more feminine energy how does that person balance the two or is that is that not how you're explaining is that no it's about balance so we have to understand we all have masculine and feminine of course within us I'm a Believer in one must be your dominant energy the other is the one you tap into when necessary so as a man you can walk in your masculine and in those moments tap into those things but you can't just stay there all the time all right you can't just become this needy emotional God that's not going to work in the vast majority of cases and so what happens is there's this messaging that's being thrown out there that women don't like good guys I don't believe that's what it is I believe that women become less attracted when you don't know how to exude and walk in your masculine energy it's and and we're hiding behind the label of good guy you can be a good guy and still exude masculine energy and that's the thing and we also think that oh they like bad boys no if you look deeper it's really the masculine energy that that quote-unquote bad boy exudes but what they desire is a mixture of both the same way that we would want a mixture of both we would want a loving sweet woman family woman whatever or and if you're a guy who wants a mask and woman cool but you don't want her to be just that you know you want her to have the ability to tap into that other side when necessary I think we all desire that balance in our partner and I think it's healthy and if we just learn how to maintain it and how to nurture it we would see greater success in relationships yeah what are some of the skills with with mastering that energy that you think we're missing out on and balancing that energy and knowing when to be which and because the reason why it's hard is I think we live in a binary world right like you feel like you have to choose like you're either a bad boy or you're a good girl you are a doer or you're a thinker you're uh winner or you're a loser right like we think like that and some people go okay you need to be masculine or I can be feminine and I I definitely relate to what you were saying like I believe that there is a lot about me that is massively masculine in energy using that language and terminology my drive my ambition how I work my strategic mind and at the same time I consider myself to have a lot of great feminine energy and qualities where it comes to like empowering others and nurturing and the ability to hold deep compassionate space and be empathetic which are all powerful qualities for for everyone right Beyond gender they're powerful qualities and I appreciate and it's taken a long time to know when to be which and it's still and I still make mistakes right there's still sometimes like I should have been more assertive I should have been more affectionate so we live in a world that finds it hard to hold two opposing ideas at the same time yeah we don't know how to do that in any sphere of life let alone within ourselves so what are some of the skills that we can learn in order to nurture both those energies in a healthy way inside of ourselves so I think one it's going to require a lot of if you're already in a relationship it's going to boil down to a lot of transparency and communication you know her if you're that man trying to understand that woman and when you can walk in those two energies her being willing to be honest and open about you know what this was too much over here or I needed some of this over here and in time you're going to become more aware and understanding it's going to be like second nature to you you won't have to overthink it and I think part of it is not overthinking it it's kind of like being ourselves but understanding that we have to learn when this is doing too much and vice versa I also think that in reality for a lot of men especially uh when we're talking about relationships and kind of losing that masculine energy the the underlying issue is fear all right when we become so afraid of losing this woman we lose ourselves and so a lot of men now fall into this very feminine needy space because they're just afraid we have to learn that listen like to me I feel if your partner thinks you're never gonna walk away from them no matter what they do you've lost that's that's a horrible place to be in we have to get to a place where we both understand that as long as we show up the way that we need to show up for each other we have each other's back we will be here but neither of us will tolerate an unhealthy relationship and someone who blatantly does not want to work on making this better I would want my the woman I'm with to feel that way and I need to feel that way once we understand that and you have the confidence of I can walk away if I have to that shifts your energy right there in itself and now you don't find yourself falling into that place where again you start to look a lot more unattractive or for some men they become yes men in their relationships thinking that makes her happy that's turning her off she doesn't want you to be her yes man she wants you to stand up for yourself sometimes give your opinion give your perspective she wants to be able to you know if anything be able to have discussions with you about these things not just you say whatever you want whatever you want whatever you want over time it becomes a problem so I think that once we conquer that fear once we create a space where we can talk about these moments and not feel some kind of way I think sometimes men are not they struggle with taking the criticism from their partner men and women we we all do when we feel when we have actual feelings for someone you know we don't care about you it's not as big of a deal but we're emotionally invested we're more sensitive to it but we have to understand that these criticisms are for the sake of making things better and strengthening this relationship so once we can get to that place it's going to be so much easier to grow in it and then I think it's just a matter of understanding that it's this balance isn't just for your relationship so look at it like from a sports perspective if I'm on a basketball team there may be moments where I need to take the lead and recognize all right everyone else is down someone needs to step up this is my moment and then there's other moments where I realize okay let's say we already have a team captain let me show them that I can follow serve do what needs to be done so that the team can win it's just becoming aware of what the moment requires you know and again I think the more in tune we get the more in tune we get with ourselves and the more in tune we get with our partner the easier it becomes to find that balance that's the challenge right the challenge is just how much patience we have with ourselves and others to realize that you walked into an imbalance unbalanced situation and now it's like how much patience how much time are we going to give it to get to that because the challenge is I think we walk into a situation thinking it's perfect whereas we should be walking into a relationship knowing it's imperfect absolutely and we're going to learn and figure it out together and I think that's what sets us up for failure is because we walk into it going it's perfect and deep down we know it isn't but somehow we gloss over it whereas I find when I know we're gonna fight when I know we're gonna argue and I know there's going to be disagreements that sets me up to develop the skills I need in order to navigate those things yes but if I assume like oh we're never gonna fight and I always get that right we always meet someone who goes to I mean a friend who goes to me Jay we never fight I'm like how long have you been together because I don't I don't know anyone who never fights I get that no one has to get to like yeah the heights of fights yeah I did that I did that it doesn't have to be a heated fight but I don't know anyone who doesn't disagree there you go all right right I think that's important for people to understand yeah there's a difference yes you have some individuals out there that'll say arguing is normal it's healthy and to me it's like listen if we're talking about arguing where we're now Crossing disrespectful lines negative lines you know the way that we the tone we take with each other all these things that's not healthy yes it may happen you should be prepared for that but it does let's not normalize it just gonna keep doing this and it's it is what it is but you're right to to be with each other long enough and never have a disagreement that's extremely rare okay extremely rare and I do think that again as you mentioned we have to be ready for those moments we have to understand and going back to how we find that balance especially as men and even for women it's recognizing so for example if my partner is in a very heated moment let's say she's in her masculine right now all right she's getting rough well meeting her with more masculine is probably going to only make things worse yeah this is the time for me to be compassionate go to her hold her calm her down bring her peace in that moment you see because it we need to balance each other out same thing on the flip side if I'm all heated and I'm I'm extra passionate and then my woman now comes with that same energy that's it now where button has this is her moment to say no let me now be the one to soften the moment up bring that Sweetness in there and everybody calms down so it's learning how to feed off of each other and recognize okay they're over here let me bring it back over here and now we can work from that point and we're both good the problem is that we all see compassion and sweetness and kindness in those moments as a weakness we don't want to be that person because we see that as losing we see that as giving in we see that as us losing our power and strength in a relationship if we become the comforter or if we become the carer right like that's that's a perception that is the perception and we have to change that that is the power position so who is more powerful the person that lets the energy dictate them how they're going to react or the person that brings the energy and dictates how they're going to make this situation play out so if I'm coming in to calm it down and being all sweet because I'm trying to bring peace here I'm in the power position I'm not losing anything I'm gonna gain more peace and happiness and Harmony if I succeed in what I'm trying to do so we have to get out of that mindset of this makes us weaker and that is the big key of it that's a big problem that for a lot of women who struggle with their feminine energy that's a big issue where they feel that being feminine is weakness it's what got them taken advantage of and got them hurt but I always say it's not the feminine energy that's the problem it's who you give it to do they respect it did they honor it you know it's the same thing as a man does she respect your masculine if she doesn't then that might just be a sign you're with the wrong person but don't stop being that guy because the woman who's best for you is going to need that in those moments that that's exactly what it is is that when people have been their best selves for the wrong person that person brings out the worst in them yes right like when someone's been their best loving kindness self but someone took advantage of it that person now thinks next time I've got to be aggressive I've got to be you know powerful I've got to be strong in this way and I feel like that's kind of what most people are dealing with we know that is that you're just dealing with a wounded version of someone yes not a healed version of someone but I think people struggle to trust again and again especially when they see the same patterns in the person they're weird and I guess the question is why do we keep making the same mistakes because I feel like a lot of us keep dating the same people yeah and there's a part of us that also just keeps closing off or being more wounded it's almost like if you cut yourself you now walk around with your hand over that you don't want to get cut again and then if you lead it off and it gets cut even deeper now you're even more conscious of that and so I find that people are doing that where they're closing their heart more and more because it's been so misused and abused and I understand that I understand people don't want to be abused and misused but I guess the question is how do people find people that they know respect them so that they can be their best version or be a better version of themselves so you know you can't drive out Darkness with more Darkness you can't expose someone who's gonna hurt you by being someone who's closed off and holding back yourself we have it's kind of what we were just talking about we have to look at being vulnerable loving and open as not just well I'm setting myself to be hurt no it's how you expose people faster if I come with that energy and you cannot respect it match it then I know you don't belong here but if I hold back I give you a free pass to hold back so now we have two individuals who are hiding behind their walls because it's comfortable there but you can't really see what's what do we really have in front of us those walls are blinding you and you can't properly evaluate the situation so one we we got to get to a place of healing from our past so that we're not just walking around with the hand over the cut no you you gotta let the cup breathe you gotta let it heal all right holding on put your hand on there is delaying the process and like you said all that's gonna happen is when you finally take your hand off but you're taking it off with the wrong person and you haven't learned see what I want people to realize is your actions weren't the problem meaning you being loving sweet kind compassionate wasn't the problem it was the person separate those two things that you don't stop doing the good things now granted are there levels to this to where we have to learn again if I'm thinking about a man if you got so deeply emotional to where you kind of lost your your masculine energy and you became very needy okay you can say all right I need to continue to be loving but I know I have to learn how to draw a line I have to learn how not to cross that moment and again you only crossed it because you were unhealthy to begin with you only cross it because you were afraid to begin with once you get to that place where you're healthy and confident you won't find yourself Crossing that line anymore yeah you won't tolerate certain things anymore so we have to heal we have to be confident and we have to let our light shine so that we can expose what's in front of us easier that's a brilliant answer I I love the differentiation between how sharing your light is not the problem the person's the problem because we yeah we start to doubt whether being a good person a loving person is actually what wins in the world yeah and the truth is that it does win but it has to win with someone who can receive it and absolutely hold that space with you and share that space with you and I find that a lot of people keep giving that energy to the wrong person because we feel we can make them better right like there's this feeling of like I can change this person I can make them better I can heal them there's some of us want to fix people yeah and that means we assume the person we're with is broken and I think this is such a subconscious thing like if you're always critiquing if you're always picking at stuff with your partner chances are you don't think they're great like just now you think there's some issues with them when you think that you can fix them and they're broken tell us about that angle where now we're almost we've talked about being the loving and kind person but sometimes we're being the person that thinks we're loving and kind because we want to improve someone but that person doesn't want to improve one big problem is that what's really driving people to pick that individual is that by being the one that can upgrade you improve you I have more value here by having more value I have a false sense of security you have to appreciate me you're less likely to walk away you're less likely to cheat because you're lucky to have me I feel like I'm the prize here but those situations never really work because again you're choosing someone that is not capable of pouring into you the way you need you're basing this off of what you could do for them and that's not sustainable and you're choosing them because again you have more emotional control here what happens to so many people especially women it's something that I call the unhealthy love cycle of women where women in their first love experience outside of any childhood trauma may have experienced they're their most loving they're just out there they go all the way in but that typically happens at a younger age at an age where men are not mature enough to handle those kind of emotions that level of commitment so on and so forth so she gets hurt after she gets hurt her moment is saying to herself I will never let this happen to me again so now the woman starts to consciously or subconsciously choose men who are I don't want to say lower than hurt but essentially a man who does not take her there he's good enough to be with but I'm not that vulnerable with him he can't hurt me like that first love hurt me and so that Dynamic usually leads to picking that person I can fix I can make better who will appreciate and respect me but again it doesn't work out and many times you'll see these same situations the guy will move on to cheat on her not because and I have to say this because some women think yeah he's just being a man no not because he's a man but because you chose a man that you could never be the woman that he needed and he could never be the man that you needed once he kind of either gets what he needs from you to build himself up or the Smoke Clears from him being infatuated with you he starts to realize I'm not getting everything that I desire and now you building him up has brought him more attention from other women so now the the difference between what you're not giving him and what someone else is willing to give him becomes way clearer now the Temptation gets way stronger and he ends up doing something or she ends up cheating as well because he's safe but he doesn't fulfill her he doesn't satisfy her he he doesn't excite her in any kind of way and that's why I always said earlier like the safe choice is almost always the wrong choice but that is a function of people trying to choose these fix or uppers because they think it's going to give them some leverage there it's leverage that's it yeah it's leverage yeah how do you know when it's time to go like how do you know when it's like I feel like this is a common question where it's like how do you know when it's just I've tried everything we've tried together tried our best maybe we went to therapy maybe we got a coach or maybe you know maybe we didn't do those things how do I just know that I feel like I need to go but I'm scared of being alone yeah I'm I'm scared of dealing with the reality that I put in a lot of energy and I feel like you said this earlier but a lot of people stay in something for a lot longer than they should because they'd rather not be alone yes they'd rather not face reality they'd rather not lose two years of their life they'd rather lose two more thinking that this this should stay like how do you know when it's time to go let me first say this yes I think I think Society needs to change their thinking as far as Letting Go doesn't always mean it can't work out later it's just that it cannot work out under these circumstances all right because some people say well I feel like they're the one okay maybe they are but maybe the time is not right and it's letting go that will allow you both to do what needs to be done in your own personal lives that would allow you to come back together and have something way more amazing so that's number one thing to consider but outside of that it's when one if that person is unwilling to put in the work necessary it's time to go there's like so many times I'll I'll have a video go up about communication and someone will comment saying I've tried talking to him and he doesn't want to talk to me and in my head I'm like why are you still with them if he refuses to talk to you you've already tried there's nothing else to do but people will let it Linger on and continue why they can why they consistently complain or unhappy about this specific issue it's not gonna magically get better they're not gonna just change it just because all of a sudden they see oh it needs to change no if they're fighting it now they have no reason to change it and what people have to understand you know especially with this whole trying to fix people up healing and facing your traumas is one of the hardest things for people to do so if they already have you in their life they're essentially getting the incentive or the benefit of relationship without having to do the deeper work it's almost like if I'm at a job and the job says you need to have a master's degree to work here but we're going to hire you anyway and give you time to get that master's degree if getting that degree is super hard to you you're gonna drag that out as long as possible yeah you may never get the degree until they fire you when they fire you and you realize oh my gosh if I don't do this I'll never get this person back I'll never get this opportunity back now they might go and get it because it's very tough to walk down the path of the healing process so if they're not willing to work on it you guys have already discussed it and I think that's a big thing because there's a lot of relationships that end and the couples don't even know what the real issue was so the communication they'll say well we talked about no you guys argued you guys lashed out there wasn't a clear communication as to what the problem was what is expected how do we go about this if you've done that and I believe one of the most effective ways to do that is through a letter because I feel like verbal communication of deep issues and concerns they typically don't go well you know people get distracted they forget what they want to say the other person gets defensive they're not they're listening to rebuttal not to understand but when there's a letter involved it gives you time to get everything out you can you can evaluate your tone leave no stone unturned and now they have an opportunity to process it on their time to really take it in and then you guys can come together and discuss the letter and now it's so much easier to stay on point and get everything covered if we've done that and they're still unwilling or there's still no progress It's Time to Go yeah that's great that's great advice and I for me that's the biggest one it's like you can't make something last if only one person's working on it you can't keep hoping and waiting and wishing and and like you said that ending doesn't mean forever and often I found that two people need to grow individually to be able to grow collectively and we're forcing growing together so hard but we need space to grow and if you can't grow together chances are you need to grow apart in order to see whether you grow together again or grow for someone else and all of those options are okay but we put so much pressure on people to grow together that they grow apart yeah and actually if they chose to grow apart and grow separately they could come back together if they learn the lessons and I think that's a mistake too though sometimes people think I'm gonna go learn this lesson for this person I meet a lot of people they're like okay they broke up with me because I wasn't XYZ now I'm gonna go become XYZ to win them back yeah and I always find I'm just like well no you should go become XYZ if you think you were missing XYZ but not to win them back because you don't know what they're gonna do what's your take on people trying to win people back so I 100 agree with you like if we're trying to learn or grow it needs to be for the benefit of who we are and just whoever we deal with so was almost like if I was a bad Communicator in this relationship I shouldn't learn to better communicate for that person I need to better communicate for whoever I'm going to be with if you can't see it in that light then maybe you're looking at the wrong thing my thing is this I think it all depends on what the details of the situation was what led to the breakup what were you overlooking what was missing are these fixable issues because a lot of people are trying to win back someone where the issues are not resolved so it's like what's the point of going back we're just going to go in the same cycle all over again they're letting this idea of I miss them I don't want to be without them blind them from the fact that you two did not get along well or you two don't want the same things or YouTube just whatever it is maybe there's a lack of sexual satisfaction I don't know why I feel the need to mention that but it happens a lot of times you have to stay focused on what led to the end and can this be corrected if it can cool but as you mentioned listen correcting it does not guarantee you they're coming back and even if they will come back you don't know when they may need so you may have figured yourself out in six months they might need a year and I would argue if you guys are truly meant for each other and at the end of the year you need a year too you're just overlooking some things and you're rushing the process because you want to get back to them yeah it's I've never found a situation where it was truly only one person who had problems and the other person was squeaky clean no no you thought you were but you got some stuff too you needed to correct of course so I think we have to be honest with ourselves and just keep striving to be better and rather than focus on winning them back just become the best you because if you do and there's a true connection there the opportunity will present itself again and you too will be able to make something of it and the struggle is that when people finally make that decision to break up or let go the study showed that the parts of your brain that are activated in a breakup are the same as detoxing from cocaine right like you're literally trying to detox so you can have a craving yeah for someone that's bad for you yeah or also it says that the areas of the brain that are activated in a breakup are the areas that are the same with physical pain so if someone like punching the stomach the reason why we say like my heart feels broken is because it literally feels like something's broken yeah so when you're going through a breakup when you're feeling the craving to be with that person again studies show that eight over eighty percent of people are looking at what their exes are doing on social media right probably through a Finster account or whatever but you have to you have to know what are some of the healthiest tips that you've given to people and the people that you've worked with that have genuinely helped people move through a breaker the first thing is to ask yourself again why was I even there why am I holding on to this individual again I think sometimes we get so blinded by just the experience or our desire to have this person for whatever reason that we Overlook what was really missing or why this could not work anyway what you'll also find is and I'm sure there's probably a study on it where if you if they broke up with you you ever see a situation it happens on TV a lot where the person could be like okay I'm gonna break up with my partner they're planning on it they've been practicing in their head right it took them a couple weeks to muster up the strength they're about to do it and then the partner breaks up with them yeah now it's oh my gosh I gotta get them back yeah so it's like you just forgot this whole time that was your plan yeah it just gave you the past to do it but now because we don't like to be the one being let go of now we're fighting hard to get it back yeah so we have to really not fall into these little traps that happen to us as human beings our brains just playing tricks on us or something where we confuse these emotions for oh my gosh I must really love them or even like you said you go into that detox and because you miss I always tell people no matter how bad the relationship was there's always good moments so if you're trying to break free you can't just let your brain focus on the good moments you have to remind yourself why this doesn't work but if you keep focusing on the good you start to make yourself think oh because I missed this good moment I must miss them and there's this quote that says sometimes you're not missing the person you're missing the feeling so you've got to be able to differentiate those two things so getting back to how we get over these breakups is recognizing why were we really there to begin with you know could this actually work the next thing is you know I'm a huge believer that a lot of times a breakup is a blessing in disguise even if there is a chance that you two can work together or this is the one for you you may have needed this time to re-evaluate and get things in order something is obviously wrong even if you it may be something as deep as because I've seen situations where everything was going amazingly well on the surface and the person broke up with them let's say the woman lets go of the man so to the man that's really confusing but what it was is that that woman she had not healed from her past relationships and this relationship being so good was scaring her and what happens is the the better you are the scarier it becomes for her she's looking for something to be wrong she has to validate her fear somehow wow when she can't find it she'll either sabotage the relationship or she'll run from it So to that man it may seem like this is so unfair which yeah it sucks but if this woman didn't break up with you now you were inevitably gonna face this same ending but at a worse time yeah all right this is still best that is happening now at least if she can go do what she needs to do there's a chance for this to come back around later but it's hard for us to see it in the moment so I think just really we also have to focus on our healing whenever a breakup happens the mistake we make is that we think it's about healing from the breakup no it's healing from everything you've been through you've probably been sleeping under the rug your childhood trauma for years maybe the last two three relationships whatever it is so and and not healing from those things is contributing to your struggle to get past this breakup and contributing to why you even chose this person to begin with I'm a huge believer that if you haven't healed you are 90 likely to choose the wrong person yeah it's just too difficult to pick that person that you truly love and can truly love you and accept that level of vulnerability when you have still not resolved your past traumas and past hurts yeah so to me that's the next big thing is just focus on your healing process because in that process you will also be able to see more clearly if this is really for you or not like walking around unhealed is like walking around with broken glasses you you can't see straight no matter how hard you try but healing will clear up your vision really really fast and now it'd be like oh wait a minute I didn't belong there yeah you know thank God the broke breakup happened you know now I'm in a better place I move forward so to me I think and I would say in addition to those things is just have an accountability partner whether that's friend coach therapist someone that can help keep you in check help remind you what you need to do someone that you know you have to talk to and update what's going on so you feel like okay I don't want to come back so I'm saying I'm doing the same thing over and over again it doesn't guarantee success but it helps it helps move the needle some so I would highly encourage that that one mindset you spoke about that that changes everything and it hit me today I was just thinking if we were just able in a moment to recognize that something painful now was going to be good for us in five years time that would change so many things in our life yes but we're so poor at dealing with current pain yeah even if it means future joy that we just can't accept that I have to go through this like in everything right like knowing that someone breaking up with you just saved you 10 years of a wasted life is so much more than knowing you're gonna have to go through a few months of pain and 10 months of pain maybe it's a bit longer maybe it's two three years but we just have to get our head around that that sometimes the best things that happen to you are protecting more of your life than the pain that they're causing you need the Peace of knowing I did what I needed to do that's it yeah because anytime you feel like well maybe I could have done this but I could have done that leaves the door open for doubt do it well exactly so it's like and that's why I'm such a big believer in you know there's people who say well once they're done they're done they'll just move on and I'm like no no Express Yourself get everything off your chest because you don't need anything to linger and you questioning well what if I did this different no make sure speak your full piece and now you can say all right I did what I had to do it is what it is I move forward and I mean it makes it easier it may not make it a hundred percent you know not an issue whatsoever but it's gonna be easier and also also for me that's why like my relationship with God is so important because that's where I find my peace in dealing with a situation that doesn't work out the way I want to I always tell myself okay if this isn't working out God has something better for me you know if this is happening right now there's a purpose because I know if I followed his guidance throughout this process there's no need for me to question why is this the current outcome there's a reason for this and I've been through these things enough times to see as you mentioned the reward is going to come it may come next week it may come years from now it will come and I'll be able to see how it all connected yeah Stefan it's been incredible talking to you man this has been such a great back-to-back flowing conversation uh we end every on purpose episode with the final five which is like a rapid fire which means every question has to be answered with one word to one sentence maximum okay so here are your final five the first question is what's the best relationship advice you've ever received or heard or given it is to love fully lovefully and be yourself because as I said earlier that's how you will expose quicker who is for you and who isn't for you second question what is the worst relationship advice you've ever heard or received get under someone to get over someone [Laughter] uh question number three uh how would you defin	kind of discovered your lens on that Spectrum so okay there's a there's a couple ways to look at it I think that most relationships and I'll even be more specific most relations that involve connection and true love are typically hard not because relationships have to be hard but because most people have been hurt by something in their life are holding on to past traumas haven't resolved it once they meet this individual that they feel so strongly about it is scary this is where things get difficult it's the difficultness in how do I handle this how do I manage this you'll have people feel like they're losing themselves but they're not losing themselves their true self is coming out and it's it's the self that's been hiding behind that wall they've been using for quote-unquote protection but I always say the same module to protect you the same as blocking your blessings so now they're being pulled from behind it it's it's makes them feel some kind of way and again people start to mishandle things you also have situations where people are getting bad advice like I'm gonna give one example um there's this uh book called The Game by Neil Strauss I don't know if you ever read that book yeah it was great Neil you know you you answer that world to pick up artistry we learned it and he was great with the women but then once he found that woman that	6	4	2	kind of discovered your lens on that Spectrum so okay there's a there's a couple ways to look at it I think that most relationships and I'll even be more specific most relations that involve connection and true love are typically hard not because relationships have to be hard but because most people have been hurt by something in their life are holding on to past traumas haven't resolved it once they meet this individual that they feel so strongly about it is scary this is where things get difficult it's the difficultness in how do I handle this how do I manage this you'll have people feel like they're losing themselves but they're not losing themselves their true self is coming out and it's it's the self that's been hiding behind that wall they've been using for quote-unquote protection but I always say the same module to protect you the same as blocking your blessings so now they're being pulled from behind it it's it's makes them feel some kind of way and again people start to mishandle things you also have situations where people are getting bad advice like I'm gonna give one example um there's this uh book called The Game by Neil Strauss I don't know if you ever read that book yeah it was great Neil you know you you answer that world to pick up artistry we learned it and he was great with the women but then once he found that woman that	yeah	3,4,6	2,1,3	3	4	6	2	1	3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPQBcb9wf8Q	4,056	mPQBcb9wf8Q	2023-03-27 00:00:00	you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you're wasting your time the best-selling author and host the number one Health and Wellness podcast on purpose with Jay Shetty what are the signs that someone deeply loves you because I feel like we live in this world where we're always wondering do they love me do they like me do they really like me are they really into me how do you know when you deeply love someone and when someone deeply loves you how do you even know so I'm gonna start with an answer that people probably won't expect to me the first key is do you truly love them because look at it like this to me a lot of people get caught up in infatuation um they have unhealthy attachments they have different motivations to why they decided this is the person that I want and that can make them feel like they're in love but to me true love flows both ways it's not a one-sided thing so when you can say I I'm not into them like that if we look deep into that situation I can almost guarantee what we'll find is infatuation attachment something else but when you can say no I feel it too I'm deeply in love with them I think that's your first key because without that nothing else matters because a lot of people are choosing Partners based off of what they love me so much so I assume it's safe here and this is a good choice to make but the safe choice is usually the wrong choice and a lot of these people select this individual thinking everything's going to be okay but because you're not really into them you can never be what they need and they were never truly what you needed which is why you never even got to that level with them so to choose them without first evaluating do you truly love them would not be wise yeah that's that's a great question and I think people struggle with that question too because I think we think of love as so many different things wrapped into one for example I could think I love someone because of how they treat me I could think I love someone because they have one quality that I really wish I had or I could love someone because I think that they're out of my league and they give me a bit of attention yeah and so what we think is love is so complex and so wide that we never stop to ask ourselves like what does love mean like what's the definition of love like how do I Define love so how do you define love and how do you encourage other people to create their definitions of Love well for me first off is always God is love and then when we take it from there love is about kindness compassion patience understanding a willingness to be selfless important to that individual but I think what's also important for people to understand is when we're trying to apply it to romantic relationships we have to understand that there's other ingredients that are necessary before we can move forward so you could love someone dearly but if they are not emotionally ready because maybe they haven't healed from their past maybe there's still some things that need to work out in their life then it wouldn't be time to move forward in a relationship with them and we have this bad habit of the minute we feel like there's love there we want to move forward exactly and as you mentioned we can get caught up sometimes in but we love them because of what they do for us but what are you prepared to do for them love is about giving all right so we have to ask ourselves okay do we know what their needs are are we willing to fulfill those needs because if not maybe this wasn't love maybe it just felt good in the moment maybe you got caught up in the hype and that's okay it happens to almost all of us if not all of us at some point in life but we have to just be real very clear with ourselves about what's really driving the intention right now but I think all those things I mentioned is what encompasses love of and that's like the foundation of it and then from there we have to look at some other things to see how we can move forward so many times like you you convince yourself something's love and what I find really interesting is that so many people fall in love too fast and no one wants to go for the slow patient understanding love which is what love requires you just said love is kind love is patient love is understanding those things take time I think those things take time to nurture and to to make sure that we're doing it correctly for each other so it's about learning each other's Love Languages and how we make it work in within that Dynamic I think also because so many people are not used to dealing with emotions at on that level being that vulnerable people mishandle it all right so it takes time for us to get to a place so we understand how to manage this and work through this however I think that I'm a huge believer in connection and I believe connection is like your spirit recognizing its match and it's very instant when you speak to couples who said they experience a connection they'll tell you first conversation first time meeting first date first week it was pretty fast so to me the the recognizing of something deeper being here can happen very quickly but how we now cultivate that and how we move forward is where we need to take our time and make sure we're not rushing and overlooking certain important issues that need to be discussed and addressed first to me it's the understanding of chemistry versus compatibility and the idea that there needs to be a spark there needs to be a connection that I feel with someone like you're saying on a deeper level but I find that I find that most people are not Adept and knowing whether the connection they feel with someone is deeper or physical yeah like I would say that it's easy to it you can often feel a spark with if you meet a lot of people you can feel a spot with a lot of people but that doesn't mean that they're the right person to build a relationship absolutely right yes so it's connection to me is a very rare occurrence right yes so I feel that people who've actually experienced it they can tell you maybe once in their life if you're lucky two times maybe all right but it's not this thing that happens with everybody whereas chemistry uh feeling of spark these things can happen with a lot of different people yeah so I do think there's there's this education that's needed to understand how we differentiate these things so that we don't confuse them because I see a lot of people take that chemistry and think oh this is it this is the one it's like but you had chemistry with the last five people why is this one the one and not them so I do think we have to be careful with that yeah I think so so we're on the same page there's three things there's connection on the deeper level there's chemistry which is like the spark on a more superficial level and then there's compatibility which is like what makes get lost and I can relate to that with my wife I definitely felt so I I'm one of those people who I kind of knew from the first few moments when I met my wife before she was my wife was like I was like yeah this is my person like I felt that way yeah for sure I felt that connection and there was chemistry there too but it had to be turned into compatibility in order to create a long lasting relationship we've been together for 10 years we're still learning building going through everything but that was a big part of it so that I can get behind is do you see it that way too or is there something different in so how do you see it believe it or not I used to make compatibility the least important but that was because I was looking at it the wrong way once I kind of looked at the definition again and compatibility is about two people coexisting in harmony yeah then I was like okay no you you have to have that I just I got caught up more so in like let's say a dating site says okay we're gonna decide who's compatible so I view compatible as like an on the paper it looks good it's supposed to match but you can have a lot of people who are supposed to be compatible and it doesn't work absolutely so I think that it's compatibility is that add-on once we have the connection and the chemistry now we have to create that Harmony which is the compatibility yes I agree with you and and it is interesting how that word compatibility is thrown around and you're so right that compatibility on paper doesn't mean compatibility in real life exactly and to me compatibility really has another word inside of it which is like adaptability and that deeper understanding of an individual where you know how much you're willing to adapt around certain parts of the relationship but we'll get to that I think a lot of people like you know and and that's where we got into this conversation around what is slow a lot of people are waiting to feel like is this person wasting my time are they the one and so they don't have a deeper connection maybe they had that spark of chemistry and now that's kind of subsided how do you know if someone's wasting your time how do you know if you're letting yourself be used or wasted in that way so to me again I think it always starts with self and you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you because just use an example let's say you're a woman and the only reason why you're holding on to this guy is because he's a nice guy you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you figure let me try to make it work you're wasting your time this is where you're setting yourself up for disaster every single time so if it's not born out of a true connection love a genuine desire you really like this individual of course there's always things we have to work through but is the foundation strong enough for us to say okay we can make something special here and I think once we are honest with ourselves that kind of helps answer the question because sometimes we get so caught up trying to animal lies the other individual that is like we get in our heads and now we're missing the mark on what's really important here and we can't always say for sure what's going on with them I will say that in general if this person isn't willing to talk about things they're wasting your time if they're not willing to address or correct things that have been talked about they're wasting your time if you guys aren't on the same page about what you want and where you want to go in life wasting time so there are some things I think we can just look at and say listen this is pointless here but a lot of times and I have to say this especially for women women's intuition is extremely powerful I'm a huge believer in it and I feel like women know very early this isn't it but they rationalize reasons to convince themselves to give this man a chance and this again is a waste of time because it just doesn't work I've seen people turn what should have been maybe a couple weeks of dating into years of being married to someone they were not happy with all because they did not listen to themselves from the beginning they knew what it was but they just could not accept it for what it was yeah and I love that point on intuition it's almost like when a relationship finally ends a lot of us think to ourselves I knew they weren't right yeah like I knew it I knew that they weren't the one but you just didn't listen to that part of yourself yes so so let's break it down for people let's help people out we started talking about three very important words connection which you defined chemistry which we've defined in compatibility which we've defined how do people know the difference between connection and chemistry when they meet someone because I find that the science shows that you're experiencing dopamine and cortisol at the same times you're experiencing the reward chemical and stress chemical at the same time which gives you that chemistry feeling which is the feeling of butterflies in your stomach or like do they like me are they into me what should I wear that kind of feeling but then you're talking about a deeper connection how do you hear the difference because I think a lot of us just get swept up in the feeling of I'm So Into that person they're so into me how do you know so I think one is are you even being yourself or can you be yourself with this individual if if you're presenting your representative then this is not a real connection this is them falling for that person that you're presenting but that's not real so to me you have you should be already being yourself but with that person you have a connection with it's a more natural flow we don't have to force it we just feel so much more comfortable around them I think in addition to that is when you when you find yourself all caught up in the moment and caught up in that chemistry again you have to ask yourself what am I really attaching myself to what about what do I really like about this individual what I find is that when it's really about chemistry we're still on the surface you don't really know about them yet you just know you guys had a good time maybe you had fun at this event you guys were able to talk about a lot of different things which is great which is gonna also be important if there is a connection however do you even know what college did they want do you know what kind of Life they want to live you know are you guys really on the same page I think connection is our paths align our purpose is align so for us to align we have to have a deeper understanding of where we're headed and can we head there together so so that's why I think though you may feel it or you may feel like you're feeling it you have to do your due diligence to dig deeper to find out okay is this just I got caught up on the surface or there is something real here yeah and I think once we ask enough questions because I think that's the other big problem we have this experience where we feel this chemistry we're so excited and now we're afraid to ask questions because we don't want to blow up the fantasy yes you know what I'm saying we're just like no no I want to keep believing this is great so let me not ask anything let me not run this person away let me not rock the boat but that's going to be what tells us if this is real or not yes I think you're I think you've hit on something there like we're so scared of losing someone that we're okay with not asking important questions and discovering important truths that actually define whether this relationship is going to last absolutely and that is ultimately going back to your point earlier that is ultimately you not being yourself right you're losing yourself scared that you're going to lose the other person so you're okay with not being yourself do you think it's ever okay this is a funny question I think but I have to ask you because I think it's a healthy discussion do you think it's ever okay to present different sides of yourself in order to attract someone or do you think that you're ultimately setting yourself up for failure in a relationship almost like I think a lot of people they may not become someone completely different but I think a lot of people are like oh I'm gonna show my smart side because it will attract this person or I'm gonna show my this side because they're like that are you saying any of that kind of molding is unhealthy or do you think there's room for that I think anything that is not sustainable is unhealthy so look at it as if I'm a man and I'm meeting this woman I want to impress her so I'm like okay I'm gonna try to spend all my money take a nice five-star restaurant all these things but deep inside I prefer a more simple lifestyle you know I don't like all that extra stuff okay that's horrible that's a sale for disaster that's unhealthy because you can't sustain what you're presenting to that individual that's gonna draw them in so whatever it is another like common example is you'll have women who love to communicate they want to be able to talk to you every single day but because they're afraid of coming off a certain kind of way they'll hold back on their communication so now they'll make it seem like they're okay with talking every now and then we don't always have to text and then this guy falls for that he falls for this low standard I won't call low standard but not having such a high expectation of him when it comes to communication then he finally gets with the woman her true self is going to come out at some point no one can suppress their true self forever it comes out and now it's like what is this I did not sign up for this now we're fighting now we're stressed because you want him to call you more he was used to you not being worried about it so much that's why it's going to always not work out so it's extremely unhealthy unless we're presenting a side of us that is truly us and we can sustain it you've hit on something again that that at the beginning of relationships we often display unrealistic standards and we set those yes and then when things shift and now you're back in reality again the other person's like but wait a minute I thought you were really into me and I even went through that with my wife when we first met I was able to spend pretty much every day with her because I didn't have a job and so I was looking for work I was applying I would go see her at her College every day and I would spend the day with her and I'd be in the library applying for jobs while she was studying yeah and I could see it every day and I think I saw every day potentially for like six months maybe every single day five days a week at least and then when I got a job that wasn't the case anymore because I was at work now and I'd set this unrealistic expectation that we could see each other all the time and even in the beginning I would see her all the time because I'd spend time with her family but we wouldn't spend time with my family because I hadn't told my family yet and so now that my family knew we were trying to split the time and all of a sudden it was like wait a minute we used to spend time at my house and so even in little things like that it took a bit of adapting because I'd set a false standard in our relationship and then thankfully my wife was adapting and she understood and she got it and it was fine but I think for so many people you set unrealistic expectations in who you are yes and that's hard to come back from absolutely yeah and that's why it's so important for us to know who we are so that we can present the real from the jump you know because again A lot of times people you know this idea that we're always changing yes I do think we're always evolving but some of the big shifts that you see are is not because that's just the way life is it's because you did take the time to figure yourself out first and then you got with this person and now you want them to adjust now thank God for you she was able to adjust but there's a lot of people that they can't handle that yeah and now everything falls apart from there so that's why yeah we have to be very careful with what we're presenting from the beginning yeah it's I I agree with you on that that we think people change but actually they just start to understand themselves exactly they went from being completely unconscious about who they were you met an unconscious version of a person yeah and now you think they're changing but they just became conscious of who they are absolutely and but the thing is Stefan as you know like Society doesn't encourage that time of getting to know yourself right when you're young you're not trained in how to think about who you want to be you're trained in thinking about what you want to I do it's about your job it's about your career you're not thinking about who you are as a human being or as a person so how do we in this Society where understanding who you are is not clear it's not encouraged where where does one start or where have you kind of found great insights in trying to discover who we are I would love to see more parents encouraging their children to explore how they're feeling about who they are like what I have found is a lot of people who let's say I I had one client where she wanted to be an actress when she was a little kid uh but parents kind of push in a different direction now she's like a social worker but her desire is still to be an actress like the things that they they wanted to do they they want to do as an adult now you can find back in their childhood in a lot of cases so I feel like too many people have stifled their children's growth in certain areas with limited ideas of well this can't make money or this wouldn't be a good look for the family or whatever the case may be it's like no let them walk in it and see for themselves if that's really where they belong outside of that for me I think the big thing is getting in tune spiritually I'm just a huge believer in that I feel like me finding myself was when I went into what I call my Wilderness period I kind of just shut everything off that I was doing because I used to be all over having fun partying all these different things things and then God kind of slapped me upside my head and I had to like really pull away from everything and go deeper from within and it felt like a process of breaking me down to build me right back up and that's when I start to see things clearer because what I realized is the world is filled with distractions and it's the distractions why we can't see ourselves for who we really are if we simply shut off the distractions long enough you will learn a lot so even if someone just took a year off don't worry you know limit the TV you're watching limit the music you're listening to limit all the internet stuff just really go deeper within yourself spend more time alone spend more time you know thinking and processing you will learn a lot because again a lot of it is it isn't a problem of we don't know ourselves we are not aware and we're not willing to accept and once we allow ourselves to do those two things become aware and then accept it we become free yeah I I mean I agree with you I think that I've always been a big proponent of solitude to understand who you are because as soon as you have another person you now have another person's opinions you have to filter yes as soon as you have another person in front of you you have another person's judgments to filter and so now you can't even say what you truly think about something because you're constantly thinking what does that person think about me and my beliefs and so understanding your beliefs in solitude allows you to be really clear about what your values and beliefs are and and that's what it's there for I think when people get into if we switch to compatibility again the idea we talked about the difference between connection and chemistry but compatibility is really interesting because a lot of people believe that relationships should be hard and they require hard work and a lot of people believe relationships should be easy and everything should just flow where have you kind of discovered your lens on that Spectrum so okay there's a there's a couple ways to look at it I think that most relationships and I'll even be more specific most relations that involve connection and true love are typically hard not because relationships have to be hard but because most people have been hurt by something in their life are holding on to past traumas haven't resolved it once they meet this individual that they feel so strongly about it is scary this is where things get difficult it's the difficultness in how do I handle this how do I manage this you'll have people feel like they're losing themselves but they're not losing themselves their true self is coming out and it's it's the self that's been hiding behind that wall they've been using for quote-unquote protection but I always say the same module to protect you the same as blocking your blessings so now they're being pulled from behind it it's it's makes them feel some kind of way and again people start to mishandle things you also have situations where people are getting bad advice like I'm gonna give one example um there's this uh book called The Game by Neil Strauss I don't know if you ever read that book yeah it was great Neil you know you you answer that world to pick up artistry we learned it and he was great with the women but then once he found that woman that he fell in love with all that stuff doesn't work anymore so you have a lot of men being taught how to handle women in general but they don't understand that's not how you handle the woman you truly love and so now again you have individuals who though they are truly in love with this person they constantly mishandle it with bad Guidance with fear and all these things this is what makes it hard and and I even think that a lot of times the people who are supposed to be together sometimes will have the hardest time getting together but I believe that once we're able to conquer that part of it and actually come together it's not hard yes it takes work I believe we have to be conscious and mindful of how we treat our partners how we show up being willing to listen but I think it's so much easier to do those things with someone you have a connection with and you're truly in love with it's gonna always feel ten times harder when you're in the wrong relationship and I would argue the vast majority of people are in the wrong relationship that's why they're seeing it be so difficult and when you see this whole it's easy typically it's easy because you have two people who are not digging deeper they're they're trying to write out that chemistry we talked about earlier for as long as possible all right so yeah it seems like it's great it's easy no issues but it doesn't really work like that because they're just not facing the reality of the situation so I think we we have to understand that there is going to be some bumps in the road because of all the things that people have been through but once we're able to come together and we know this is our partner this is who we want to share our life with it can get so much better yeah and do you do you think that people have just been given generally the wrong education on how to deal with another person in their life 100 yeah because unfortunately a lot of individuals are giving advice from a bit or hurt place there and and they're trying to disguise it as I'm just looking out for you no you you have inhaled and you cannot properly guide them in a positive and loving Manner and I think that a lot of people you know I always say it's funny how we'll spend a lot of time getting educated for the for the sake of our careers and business but we don't do the same for relationships and yet relationships arguably are even more important than that career business and even if it's not a romantic relationship just relationships in general your ability to coexist with others connect with others is extremely important if you want that business to succeed you have to learn how to establish business relationships there's no way around it so we have to learn how to talk to people listen to people you know what I'm saying and just make make things work when we come together with other individuals so I definitely think that we're just lacking in a lot of education and again too many because there's so many voices on the internet now there's just so much bad advice being given and and the individuals giving it they may be giving like let's say 80 of the advice is accurate but it's that 20 that's completely off that can derail everything and that's the stuff that people are gravitating to and this is causing a lot of problems can you give us some example of some of the like not specific people or anything like that I just mean like could you give example of bad advice and what about it is bad or unhealthy for people to try and put into practice okay so one thing I heard recently was an individual told uh said some of the best advice you can give to men is to not fall in love you know basically just find a woman you want to be with and kind of keep it there the reason why I view that as horrible advice is because you sit down with any man who's lived enough life they will all be able to say there's been at least one time they fail deeply for a woman all right the problem isn't falling deep before a woman the problem is we don't know how to handle it once we get there the problem is because we're not accustomed to handling and processing our emotions a certain kind of way and being this vulnerable we don't understand what's going to be required of us in that moment we also kind of lose sight of because I'm a big believer in masculine and feminine energy and I believe that if she was attracted to you because of that masculine energy that you give off and now you become this emotional wreck because you don't know how to handle all these feelings you have for her well you start to become less attractive to her and it's not that it's not fixable it's fixable but again a lack of understanding and awareness derails the situation so rather than telling men don't fall in love because it's inevitable let's teach them how we walk in love how we make what I call Loving in your masculine how you maintain that energy and still be able to pour into that woman in a way that allows relationship to flourish yeah and how does that work when I think obviously a lot of people in that example that you're giving if if the person is attracted to someone because of their masculine energy but at the same time they want them to be empathetic and compassionate and kind which are generally seen as more feminine energy how does that person balance the two or is that is that not how you're explaining is that no it's about balance so we have to understand we all have masculine and feminine of course within us I'm a Believer in one must be your dominant energy the other is the one you tap into when necessary so as a man you can walk in your masculine and in those moments tap into those things but you can't just stay there all the time all right you can't just become this needy emotional God that's not going to work in the vast majority of cases and so what happens is there's this messaging that's being thrown out there that women don't like good guys I don't believe that's what it is I believe that women become less attracted when you don't know how to exude and walk in your masculine energy it's and and we're hiding behind the label of good guy you can be a good guy and still exude masculine energy and that's the thing and we also think that oh they like bad boys no if you look deeper it's really the masculine energy that that quote-unquote bad boy exudes but what they desire is a mixture of both the same way that we would want a mixture of both we would want a loving sweet woman family woman whatever or and if you're a guy who wants a mask and woman cool but you don't want her to be just that you know you want her to have the ability to tap into that other side when necessary I think we all desire that balance in our partner and I think it's healthy and if we just learn how to maintain it and how to nurture it we would see greater success in relationships yeah what are some of the skills with with mastering that energy that you think we're missing out on and balancing that energy and knowing when to be which and because the reason why it's hard is I think we live in a binary world right like you feel like you have to choose like you're either a bad boy or you're a good girl you are a doer or you're a thinker you're uh winner or you're a loser right like we think like that and some people go okay you need to be masculine or I can be feminine and I I definitely relate to what you were saying like I believe that there is a lot about me that is massively masculine in energy using that language and terminology my drive my ambition how I work my strategic mind and at the same time I consider myself to have a lot of great feminine energy and qualities where it comes to like empowering others and nurturing and the ability to hold deep compassionate space and be empathetic which are all powerful qualities for for everyone right Beyond gender they're powerful qualities and I appreciate and it's taken a long time to know when to be which and it's still and I still make mistakes right there's still sometimes like I should have been more assertive I should have been more affectionate so we live in a world that finds it hard to hold two opposing ideas at the same time yeah we don't know how to do that in any sphere of life let alone within ourselves so what are some of the skills that we can learn in order to nurture both those energies in a healthy way inside of ourselves so I think one it's going to require a lot of if you're already in a relationship it's going to boil down to a lot of transparency and communication you know her if you're that man trying to understand that woman and when you can walk in those two energies her being willing to be honest and open about you know what this was too much over here or I needed some of this over here and in time you're going to become more aware and understanding it's going to be like second nature to you you won't have to overthink it and I think part of it is not overthinking it it's kind of like being ourselves but understanding that we have to learn when this is doing too much and vice versa I also think that in reality for a lot of men especially uh when we're talking about relationships and kind of losing that masculine energy the the underlying issue is fear all right when we become so afraid of losing this woman we lose ourselves and so a lot of men now fall into this very feminine needy space because they're just afraid we have to learn that listen like to me I feel if your partner thinks you're never gonna walk away from them no matter what they do you've lost that's that's a horrible place to be in we have to get to a place where we both understand that as long as we show up the way that we need to show up for each other we have each other's back we will be here but neither of us will tolerate an unhealthy relationship and someone who blatantly does not want to work on making this better I would want my the woman I'm with to feel that way and I need to feel that way once we understand that and you have the confidence of I can walk away if I have to that shifts your energy right there in itself and now you don't find yourself falling into that place where again you start to look a lot more unattractive or for some men they become yes men in their relationships thinking that makes her happy that's turning her off she doesn't want you to be her yes man she wants you to stand up for yourself sometimes give your opinion give your perspective she wants to be able to you know if anything be able to have discussions with you about these things not just you say whatever you want whatever you want whatever you want over time it becomes a problem so I think that once we conquer that fear once we create a space where we can talk about these moments and not feel some kind of way I think sometimes men are not they struggle with taking the criticism from their partner men and women we we all do when we feel when we have actual feelings for someone you know we don't care about you it's not as big of a deal but we're emotionally invested we're more sensitive to it but we have to understand that these criticisms are for the sake of making things better and strengthening this relationship so once we can get to that place it's going to be so much easier to grow in it and then I think it's just a matter of understanding that it's this balance isn't just for your relationship so look at it like from a sports perspective if I'm on a basketball team there may be moments where I need to take the lead and recognize all right everyone else is down someone needs to step up this is my moment and then there's other moments where I realize okay let's say we already have a team captain let me show them that I can follow serve do what needs to be done so that the team can win it's just becoming aware of what the moment requires you know and again I think the more in tune we get the more in tune we get with ourselves and the more in tune we get with our partner the easier it becomes to find that balance that's the challenge right the challenge is just how much patience we have with ourselves and others to realize that you walked into an imbalance unbalanced situation and now it's like how much patience how much time are we going to give it to get to that because the challenge is I think we walk into a situation thinking it's perfect whereas we should be walking into a relationship knowing it's imperfect absolutely and we're going to learn and figure it out together and I think that's what sets us up for failure is because we walk into it going it's perfect and deep down we know it isn't but somehow we gloss over it whereas I find when I know we're gonna fight when I know we're gonna argue and I know there's going to be disagreements that sets me up to develop the skills I need in order to navigate those things yes but if I assume like oh we're never gonna fight and I always get that right we always meet someone who goes to I mean a friend who goes to me Jay we never fight I'm like how long have you been together because I don't I don't know anyone who never fights I get that no one has to get to like yeah the heights of fights yeah I did that I did that it doesn't have to be a heated fight but I don't know anyone who doesn't disagree there you go all right right I think that's important for people to understand yeah there's a difference yes you have some individuals out there that'll say arguing is normal it's healthy and to me it's like listen if we're talking about arguing where we're now Crossing disrespectful lines negative lines you know the way that we the tone we take with each other all these things that's not healthy yes it may happen you should be prepared for that but it does let's not normalize it just gonna keep doing this and it's it is what it is but you're right to to be with each other long enough and never have a disagreement that's extremely rare okay extremely rare and I do think that again as you mentioned we have to be ready for those moments we have to understand and going back to how we find that balance especially as men and even for women it's recognizing so for example if my partner is in a very heated moment let's say she's in her masculine right now all right she's getting rough well meeting her with more masculine is probably going to only make things worse yeah this is the time for me to be compassionate go to her hold her calm her down bring her peace in that moment you see because it we need to balance each other out same thing on the flip side if I'm all heated and I'm I'm extra passionate and then my woman now comes with that same energy that's it now where button has this is her moment to say no let me now be the one to soften the moment up bring that Sweetness in there and everybody calms down so it's learning how to feed off of each other and recognize okay they're over here let me bring it back over here and now we can work from that point and we're both good the problem is that we all see compassion and sweetness and kindness in those moments as a weakness we don't want to be that person because we see that as losing we see that as giving in we see that as us losing our power and strength in a relationship if we become the comforter or if we become the carer right like that's that's a perception that is the perception and we have to change that that is the power position so who is more powerful the person that lets the energy dictate them how they're going to react or the person that brings the energy and dictates how they're going to make this situation play out so if I'm coming in to calm it down and being all sweet because I'm trying to bring peace here I'm in the power position I'm not losing anything I'm gonna gain more peace and happiness and Harmony if I succeed in what I'm trying to do so we have to get out of that mindset of this makes us weaker and that is the big key of it that's a big problem that for a lot of women who struggle with their feminine energy that's a big issue where they feel that being feminine is weakness it's what got them taken advantage of and got them hurt but I always say it's not the feminine energy that's the problem it's who you give it to do they respect it did they honor it you know it's the same thing as a man does she respect your masculine if she doesn't then that might just be a sign you're with the wrong person but don't stop being that guy because the woman who's best for you is going to need that in those moments that that's exactly what it is is that when people have been their best selves for the wrong person that person brings out the worst in them yes right like when someone's been their best loving kindness self but someone took advantage of it that person now thinks next time I've got to be aggressive I've got to be you know powerful I've got to be strong in this way and I feel like that's kind of what most people are dealing with we know that is that you're just dealing with a wounded version of someone yes not a healed version of someone but I think people struggle to trust again and again especially when they see the same patterns in the person they're weird and I guess the question is why do we keep making the same mistakes because I feel like a lot of us keep dating the same people yeah and there's a part of us that also just keeps closing off or being more wounded it's almost like if you cut yourself you now walk around with your hand over that you don't want to get cut again and then if you lead it off and it gets cut even deeper now you're even more conscious of that and so I find that people are doing that where they're closing their heart more and more because it's been so misused and abused and I understand that I understand people don't want to be abused and misused but I guess the question is how do people find people that they know respect them so that they can be their best version or be a better version of themselves so you know you can't drive out Darkness with more Darkness you can't expose someone who's gonna hurt you by being someone who's closed off and holding back yourself we have it's kind of what we were just talking about we have to look at being vulnerable loving and open as not just well I'm setting myself to be hurt no it's how you expose people faster if I come with that energy and you cannot respect it match it then I know you don't belong here but if I hold back I give you a free pass to hold back so now we have two individuals who are hiding behind their walls because it's comfortable there but you can't really see what's what do we really have in front of us those walls are blinding you and you can't properly evaluate the situation so one we we got to get to a place of healing from our past so that we're not just walking around with the hand over the cut no you you gotta let the cup breathe you gotta let it heal all right holding on put your hand on there is delaying the process and like you said all that's gonna happen is when you finally take your hand off but you're taking it off with the wrong person and you haven't learned see what I want people to realize is your actions weren't the problem meaning you being loving sweet kind compassionate wasn't the problem it was the person separate those two things that you don't stop doing the good things now granted are there levels to this to where we have to learn again if I'm thinking about a man if you got so deeply emotional to where you kind of lost your your masculine energy and you became very needy okay you can say all right I need to continue to be loving but I know I have to learn how to draw a line I have to learn how not to cross that moment and again you only crossed it because you were unhealthy to begin with you only cross it because you were afraid to begin with once you get to that place where you're healthy and confident you won't find yourself Crossing that line anymore yeah you won't tolerate certain things anymore so we have to heal we have to be confident and we have to let our light shine so that we can expose what's in front of us easier that's a brilliant answer I I love the differentiation between how sharing your light is not the problem the person's the problem because we yeah we start to doubt whether being a good person a loving person is actually what wins in the world yeah and the truth is that it does win but it has to win with someone who can receive it and absolutely hold that space with you and share that space with you and I find that a lot of people keep giving that energy to the wrong person because we feel we can make them better right like there's this feeling of like I can change this person I can make them better I can heal them there's some of us want to fix people yeah and that means we assume the person we're with is broken and I think this is such a subconscious thing like if you're always critiquing if you're always picking at stuff with your partner chances are you don't think they're great like just now you think there's some issues with them when you think that you can fix them and they're broken tell us about that angle where now we're almost we've talked about being the loving and kind person but sometimes we're being the person that thinks we're loving and kind because we want to improve someone but that person doesn't want to improve one big problem is that what's really driving people to pick that individual is that by being the one that can upgrade you improve you I have more value here by having more value I have a false sense of security you have to appreciate me you're less likely to walk away you're less likely to cheat because you're lucky to have me I feel like I'm the prize here but those situations never really work because again you're choosing someone that is not capable of pouring into you the way you need you're basing this off of what you could do for them and that's not sustainable and you're choosing them because again you have more emotional control here what happens to so many people especially women it's something that I call the unhealthy love cycle of women where women in their first love experience outside of any childhood trauma may have experienced they're their most loving they're just out there they go all the way in but that typically happens at a younger age at an age where men are not mature enough to handle those kind of emotions that level of commitment so on and so forth so she gets hurt after she gets hurt her moment is saying to herself I will never let this happen to me again so now the woman starts to consciously or subconsciously choose men who are I don't want to say lower than hurt but essentially a man who does not take her there he's good enough to be with but I'm not that vulnerable with him he can't hurt me like that first love hurt me and so that Dynamic usually leads to picking that person I can fix I can make better who will appreciate and respect me but again it doesn't work out and many times you'll see these same situations the guy will move on to cheat on her not because and I have to say this because some women think yeah he's just being a man no not because he's a man but because you chose a man that you could never be the woman that he needed and he could never be the man that you needed once he kind of either gets what he needs from you to build himself up or the Smoke Clears from him being infatuated with you he starts to realize I'm not getting everything that I desire and now you building him up has brought him more attention from other women so now the the difference between what you're not giving him and what someone else is willing to give him becomes way clearer now the Temptation gets way stronger and he ends up doing something or she ends up cheating as well because he's safe but he doesn't fulfill her he doesn't satisfy her he he doesn't excite her in any kind of way and that's why I always said earlier like the safe choice is almost always the wrong choice but that is a function of people trying to choose these fix or uppers because they think it's going to give them some leverage there it's leverage that's it yeah it's leverage yeah how do you know when it's time to go like how do you know when it's like I feel like this is a common question where it's like how do you know when it's just I've tried everything we've tried together tried our best maybe we went to therapy maybe we got a coach or maybe you know maybe we didn't do those things how do I just know that I feel like I need to go but I'm scared of being alone yeah I'm I'm scared of dealing with the reality that I put in a lot of energy and I feel like you said this earlier but a lot of people stay in something for a lot longer than they should because they'd rather not be alone yes they'd rather not face reality they'd rather not lose two years of their life they'd rather lose two more thinking that this this should stay like how do you know when it's time to go let me first say this yes I think I think Society needs to change their thinking as far as Letting Go doesn't always mean it can't work out later it's just that it cannot work out under these circumstances all right because some people say well I feel like they're the one okay maybe they are but maybe the time is not right and it's letting go that will allow you both to do what needs to be done in your own personal lives that would allow you to come back together and have something way more amazing so that's number one thing to consider but outside of that it's when one if that person is unwilling to put in the work necessary it's time to go there's like so many times I'll I'll have a video go up about communication and someone will comment saying I've tried talking to him and he doesn't want to talk to me and in my head I'm like why are you still with them if he refuses to talk to you you've already tried there's nothing else to do but people will let it Linger on and continue why they can why they consistently complain or unhappy about this specific issue it's not gonna magically get better they're not gonna just change it just because all of a sudden they see oh it needs to change no if they're fighting it now they have no reason to change it and what people have to understand you know especially with this whole trying to fix people up healing and facing your traumas is one of the hardest things for people to do so if they already have you in their life they're essentially getting the incentive or the benefit of relationship without having to do the deeper work it's almost like if I'm at a job and the job says you need to have a master's degree to work here but we're going to hire you anyway and give you time to get that master's degree if getting that degree is super hard to you you're gonna drag that out as long as possible yeah you may never get the degree until they fire you when they fire you and you realize oh my gosh if I don't do this I'll never get this person back I'll never get this opportunity back now they might go and get it because it's very tough to walk down the path of the healing process so if they're not willing to work on it you guys have already discussed it and I think that's a big thing because there's a lot of relationships that end and the couples don't even know what the real issue was so the communication they'll say well we talked about no you guys argued you guys lashed out there wasn't a clear communication as to what the problem was what is expected how do we go about this if you've done that and I believe one of the most effective ways to do that is through a letter because I feel like verbal communication of deep issues and concerns they typically don't go well you know people get distracted they forget what they want to say the other person gets defensive they're not they're listening to rebuttal not to understand but when there's a letter involved it gives you time to get everything out you can you can evaluate your tone leave no stone unturned and now they have an opportunity to process it on their time to really take it in and then you guys can come together and discuss the letter and now it's so much easier to stay on point and get everything covered if we've done that and they're still unwilling or there's still no progress It's Time to Go yeah that's great that's great advice and I for me that's the biggest one it's like you can't make something last if only one person's working on it you can't keep hoping and waiting and wishing and and like you said that ending doesn't mean forever and often I found that two people need to grow individually to be able to grow collectively and we're forcing growing together so hard but we need space to grow and if you can't grow together chances are you need to grow apart in order to see whether you grow together again or grow for someone else and all of those options are okay but we put so much pressure on people to grow together that they grow apart yeah and actually if they chose to grow apart and grow separately they could come back together if they learn the lessons and I think that's a mistake too though sometimes people think I'm gonna go learn this lesson for this person I meet a lot of people they're like okay they broke up with me because I wasn't XYZ now I'm gonna go become XYZ to win them back yeah and I always find I'm just like well no you should go become XYZ if you think you were missing XYZ but not to win them back because you don't know what they're gonna do what's your take on people trying to win people back so I 100 agree with you like if we're trying to learn or grow it needs to be for the benefit of who we are and just whoever we deal with so was almost like if I was a bad Communicator in this relationship I shouldn't learn to better communicate for that person I need to better communicate for whoever I'm going to be with if you can't see it in that light then maybe you're looking at the wrong thing my thing is this I think it all depends on what the details of the situation was what led to the breakup what were you overlooking what was missing are these fixable issues because a lot of people are trying to win back someone where the issues are not resolved so it's like what's the point of going back we're just going to go in the same cycle all over again they're letting this idea of I miss them I don't want to be without them blind them from the fact that you two did not get along well or you two don't want the same things or YouTube just whatever it is maybe there's a lack of sexual satisfaction I don't know why I feel the need to mention that but it happens a lot of times you have to stay focused on what led to the end and can this be corrected if it can cool but as you mentioned listen correcting it does not guarantee you they're coming back and even if they will come back you don't know when they may need so you may have figured yourself out in six months they might need a year and I would argue if you guys are truly meant for each other and at the end of the year you need a year too you're just overlooking some things and you're rushing the process because you want to get back to them yeah it's I've never found a situation where it was truly only one person who had problems and the other person was squeaky clean no no you thought you were but you got some stuff too you needed to correct of course so I think we have to be honest with ourselves and just keep striving to be better and rather than focus on winning them back just become the best you because if you do and there's a true connection there the opportunity will present itself again and you too will be able to make something of it and the struggle is that when people finally make that decision to break up or let go the study showed that the parts of your brain that are activated in a breakup are the same as detoxing from cocaine right like you're literally trying to detox so you can have a craving yeah for someone that's bad for you yeah or also it says that the areas of the brain that are activated in a breakup are the areas that are the same with physical pain so if someone like punching the stomach the reason why we say like my heart feels broken is because it literally feels like something's broken yeah so when you're going through a breakup when you're feeling the craving to be with that person again studies show that eight over eighty percent of people are looking at what their exes are doing on social media right probably through a Finster account or whatever but you have to you have to know what are some of the healthiest tips that you've given to people and the people that you've worked with that have genuinely helped people move through a breaker the first thing is to ask yourself again why was I even there why am I holding on to this individual again I think sometimes we get so blinded by just the experience or our desire to have this person for whatever reason that we Overlook what was really missing or why this could not work anyway what you'll also find is and I'm sure there's probably a study on it where if you if they broke up with you you ever see a situation it happens on TV a lot where the person could be like okay I'm gonna break up with my partner they're planning on it they've been practicing in their head right it took them a couple weeks to muster up the strength they're about to do it and then the partner breaks up with them yeah now it's oh my gosh I gotta get them back yeah so it's like you just forgot this whole time that was your plan yeah it just gave you the past to do it but now because we don't like to be the one being let go of now we're fighting hard to get it back yeah so we have to really not fall into these little traps that happen to us as human beings our brains just playing tricks on us or something where we confuse these emotions for oh my gosh I must really love them or even like you said you go into that detox and because you miss I always tell people no matter how bad the relationship was there's always good moments so if you're trying to break free you can't just let your brain focus on the good moments you have to remind yourself why this doesn't work but if you keep focusing on the good you start to make yourself think oh because I missed this good moment I must miss them and there's this quote that says sometimes you're not missing the person you're missing the feeling so you've got to be able to differentiate those two things so getting back to how we get over these breakups is recognizing why were we really there to begin with you know could this actually work the next thing is you know I'm a huge believer that a lot of times a breakup is a blessing in disguise even if there is a chance that you two can work together or this is the one for you you may have needed this time to re-evaluate and get things in order something is obviously wrong even if you it may be something as deep as because I've seen situations where everything was going amazingly well on the surface and the person broke up with them let's say the woman lets go of the man so to the man that's really confusing but what it was is that that woman she had not healed from her past relationships and this relationship being so good was scaring her and what happens is the the better you are the scarier it becomes for her she's looking for something to be wrong she has to validate her fear somehow wow when she can't find it she'll either sabotage the relationship or she'll run from it So to that man it may seem like this is so unfair which yeah it sucks but if this woman didn't break up with you now you were inevitably gonna face this same ending but at a worse time yeah all right this is still best that is happening now at least if she can go do what she needs to do there's a chance for this to come back around later but it's hard for us to see it in the moment so I think just really we also have to focus on our healing whenever a breakup happens the mistake we make is that we think it's about healing from the breakup no it's healing from everything you've been through you've probably been sleeping under the rug your childhood trauma for years maybe the last two three relationships whatever it is so and and not healing from those things is contributing to your struggle to get past this breakup and contributing to why you even chose this person to begin with I'm a huge believer that if you haven't healed you are 90 likely to choose the wrong person yeah it's just too difficult to pick that person that you truly love and can truly love you and accept that level of vulnerability when you have still not resolved your past traumas and past hurts yeah so to me that's the next big thing is just focus on your healing process because in that process you will also be able to see more clearly if this is really for you or not like walking around unhealed is like walking around with broken glasses you you can't see straight no matter how hard you try but healing will clear up your vision really really fast and now it'd be like oh wait a minute I didn't belong there yeah you know thank God the broke breakup happened you know now I'm in a better place I move forward so to me I think and I would say in addition to those things is just have an accountability partner whether that's friend coach therapist someone that can help keep you in check help remind you what you need to do someone that you know you have to talk to and update what's going on so you feel like okay I don't want to come back so I'm saying I'm doing the same thing over and over again it doesn't guarantee success but it helps it helps move the needle some so I would highly encourage that that one mindset you spoke about that that changes everything and it hit me today I was just thinking if we were just able in a moment to recognize that something painful now was going to be good for us in five years time that would change so many things in our life yes but we're so poor at dealing with current pain yeah even if it means future joy that we just can't accept that I have to go through this like in everything right like knowing that someone breaking up with you just saved you 10 years of a wasted life is so much more than knowing you're gonna have to go through a few months of pain and 10 months of pain maybe it's a bit longer maybe it's two three years but we just have to get our head around that that sometimes the best things that happen to you are protecting more of your life than the pain that they're causing you need the Peace of knowing I did what I needed to do that's it yeah because anytime you feel like well maybe I could have done this but I could have done that leaves the door open for doubt do it well exactly so it's like and that's why I'm such a big believer in you know there's people who say well once they're done they're done they'll just move on and I'm like no no Express Yourself get everything off your chest because you don't need anything to linger and you questioning well what if I did this different no make sure speak your full piece and now you can say all right I did what I had to do it is what it is I move forward and I mean it makes it easier it may not make it a hundred percent you know not an issue whatsoever but it's gonna be easier and also also for me that's why like my relationship with God is so important because that's where I find my peace in dealing with a situation that doesn't work out the way I want to I always tell myself okay if this isn't working out God has something better for me you know if this is happening right now there's a purpose because I know if I followed his guidance throughout this process there's no need for me to question why is this the current outcome there's a reason for this and I've been through these things enough times to see as you mentioned the reward is going to come it may come next week it may come years from now it will come and I'll be able to see how it all connected yeah Stefan it's been incredible talking to you man this has been such a great back-to-back flowing conversation uh we end every on purpose episode with the final five which is like a rapid fire which means every question has to be answered with one word to one sentence maximum okay so here are your final five the first question is what's the best relationship advice you've ever received or heard or given it is to love fully lovefully and be yourself because as I said earlier that's how you will expose quicker who is for you and who isn't for you second question what is the worst relationship advice you've ever heard or received get under someone to get over someone [Laughter] uh question number three uh how would you defin	it seems like it's great it's easy no issues but it doesn't really work like that because they're just not facing the reality of the situation so I think we we have to understand that there is going to be some bumps in the road because of all the things that people have been through but once we're able to come together and we know this is our partner this is who we want to share our life with it can get so much better yeah and do you do you think that people have just been given generally the wrong education on how to deal with another person in their life 100 yeah because unfortunately a lot of individuals are giving advice from a bit or hurt place there and and they're trying to disguise it as I'm just looking out for you no you you have inhaled and you cannot properly guide them in a positive and loving Manner and I think that a lot of people you know I always say it's funny how we'll spend a lot of time getting educated for the for the sake of our careers and business but we don't do the same for relationships and yet relationships arguably are even more important than that career business and even if it's not a romantic relationship just relationships in general your ability to coexist with others connect with others is extremely important if you want that business to succeed you have to learn	7	4	6	it seems like it's great it's easy no issues but it doesn't really work like that because they're just not facing the reality of the situation so I think we we have to understand that there is going to be some bumps in the road because of all the things that people have been through but once we're able to come together and we know this is our partner this is who we want to share our life with it can get so much better yeah	do you do you think that people have just been given generally the wrong education on how to deal with another person in their life	4,2,5	2,-1,3	4	2	5	2	-1	3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPQBcb9wf8Q	4,056	mPQBcb9wf8Q	2023-03-27 00:00:00	you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you're wasting your time the best-selling author and host the number one Health and Wellness podcast on purpose with Jay Shetty what are the signs that someone deeply loves you because I feel like we live in this world where we're always wondering do they love me do they like me do they really like me are they really into me how do you know when you deeply love someone and when someone deeply loves you how do you even know so I'm gonna start with an answer that people probably won't expect to me the first key is do you truly love them because look at it like this to me a lot of people get caught up in infatuation um they have unhealthy attachments they have different motivations to why they decided this is the person that I want and that can make them feel like they're in love but to me true love flows both ways it's not a one-sided thing so when you can say I I'm not into them like that if we look deep into that situation I can almost guarantee what we'll find is infatuation attachment something else but when you can say no I feel it too I'm deeply in love with them I think that's your first key because without that nothing else matters because a lot of people are choosing Partners based off of what they love me so much so I assume it's safe here and this is a good choice to make but the safe choice is usually the wrong choice and a lot of these people select this individual thinking everything's going to be okay but because you're not really into them you can never be what they need and they were never truly what you needed which is why you never even got to that level with them so to choose them without first evaluating do you truly love them would not be wise yeah that's that's a great question and I think people struggle with that question too because I think we think of love as so many different things wrapped into one for example I could think I love someone because of how they treat me I could think I love someone because they have one quality that I really wish I had or I could love someone because I think that they're out of my league and they give me a bit of attention yeah and so what we think is love is so complex and so wide that we never stop to ask ourselves like what does love mean like what's the definition of love like how do I Define love so how do you define love and how do you encourage other people to create their definitions of Love well for me first off is always God is love and then when we take it from there love is about kindness compassion patience understanding a willingness to be selfless important to that individual but I think what's also important for people to understand is when we're trying to apply it to romantic relationships we have to understand that there's other ingredients that are necessary before we can move forward so you could love someone dearly but if they are not emotionally ready because maybe they haven't healed from their past maybe there's still some things that need to work out in their life then it wouldn't be time to move forward in a relationship with them and we have this bad habit of the minute we feel like there's love there we want to move forward exactly and as you mentioned we can get caught up sometimes in but we love them because of what they do for us but what are you prepared to do for them love is about giving all right so we have to ask ourselves okay do we know what their needs are are we willing to fulfill those needs because if not maybe this wasn't love maybe it just felt good in the moment maybe you got caught up in the hype and that's okay it happens to almost all of us if not all of us at some point in life but we have to just be real very clear with ourselves about what's really driving the intention right now but I think all those things I mentioned is what encompasses love of and that's like the foundation of it and then from there we have to look at some other things to see how we can move forward so many times like you you convince yourself something's love and what I find really interesting is that so many people fall in love too fast and no one wants to go for the slow patient understanding love which is what love requires you just said love is kind love is patient love is understanding those things take time I think those things take time to nurture and to to make sure that we're doing it correctly for each other so it's about learning each other's Love Languages and how we make it work in within that Dynamic I think also because so many people are not used to dealing with emotions at on that level being that vulnerable people mishandle it all right so it takes time for us to get to a place so we understand how to manage this and work through this however I think that I'm a huge believer in connection and I believe connection is like your spirit recognizing its match and it's very instant when you speak to couples who said they experience a connection they'll tell you first conversation first time meeting first date first week it was pretty fast so to me the the recognizing of something deeper being here can happen very quickly but how we now cultivate that and how we move forward is where we need to take our time and make sure we're not rushing and overlooking certain important issues that need to be discussed and addressed first to me it's the understanding of chemistry versus compatibility and the idea that there needs to be a spark there needs to be a connection that I feel with someone like you're saying on a deeper level but I find that I find that most people are not Adept and knowing whether the connection they feel with someone is deeper or physical yeah like I would say that it's easy to it you can often feel a spark with if you meet a lot of people you can feel a spot with a lot of people but that doesn't mean that they're the right person to build a relationship absolutely right yes so it's connection to me is a very rare occurrence right yes so I feel that people who've actually experienced it they can tell you maybe once in their life if you're lucky two times maybe all right but it's not this thing that happens with everybody whereas chemistry uh feeling of spark these things can happen with a lot of different people yeah so I do think there's there's this education that's needed to understand how we differentiate these things so that we don't confuse them because I see a lot of people take that chemistry and think oh this is it this is the one it's like but you had chemistry with the last five people why is this one the one and not them so I do think we have to be careful with that yeah I think so so we're on the same page there's three things there's connection on the deeper level there's chemistry which is like the spark on a more superficial level and then there's compatibility which is like what makes get lost and I can relate to that with my wife I definitely felt so I I'm one of those people who I kind of knew from the first few moments when I met my wife before she was my wife was like I was like yeah this is my person like I felt that way yeah for sure I felt that connection and there was chemistry there too but it had to be turned into compatibility in order to create a long lasting relationship we've been together for 10 years we're still learning building going through everything but that was a big part of it so that I can get behind is do you see it that way too or is there something different in so how do you see it believe it or not I used to make compatibility the least important but that was because I was looking at it the wrong way once I kind of looked at the definition again and compatibility is about two people coexisting in harmony yeah then I was like okay no you you have to have that I just I got caught up more so in like let's say a dating site says okay we're gonna decide who's compatible so I view compatible as like an on the paper it looks good it's supposed to match but you can have a lot of people who are supposed to be compatible and it doesn't work absolutely so I think that it's compatibility is that add-on once we have the connection and the chemistry now we have to create that Harmony which is the compatibility yes I agree with you and and it is interesting how that word compatibility is thrown around and you're so right that compatibility on paper doesn't mean compatibility in real life exactly and to me compatibility really has another word inside of it which is like adaptability and that deeper understanding of an individual where you know how much you're willing to adapt around certain parts of the relationship but we'll get to that I think a lot of people like you know and and that's where we got into this conversation around what is slow a lot of people are waiting to feel like is this person wasting my time are they the one and so they don't have a deeper connection maybe they had that spark of chemistry and now that's kind of subsided how do you know if someone's wasting your time how do you know if you're letting yourself be used or wasted in that way so to me again I think it always starts with self and you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you because just use an example let's say you're a woman and the only reason why you're holding on to this guy is because he's a nice guy you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you figure let me try to make it work you're wasting your time this is where you're setting yourself up for disaster every single time so if it's not born out of a true connection love a genuine desire you really like this individual of course there's always things we have to work through but is the foundation strong enough for us to say okay we can make something special here and I think once we are honest with ourselves that kind of helps answer the question because sometimes we get so caught up trying to animal lies the other individual that is like we get in our heads and now we're missing the mark on what's really important here and we can't always say for sure what's going on with them I will say that in general if this person isn't willing to talk about things they're wasting your time if they're not willing to address or correct things that have been talked about they're wasting your time if you guys aren't on the same page about what you want and where you want to go in life wasting time so there are some things I think we can just look at and say listen this is pointless here but a lot of times and I have to say this especially for women women's intuition is extremely powerful I'm a huge believer in it and I feel like women know very early this isn't it but they rationalize reasons to convince themselves to give this man a chance and this again is a waste of time because it just doesn't work I've seen people turn what should have been maybe a couple weeks of dating into years of being married to someone they were not happy with all because they did not listen to themselves from the beginning they knew what it was but they just could not accept it for what it was yeah and I love that point on intuition it's almost like when a relationship finally ends a lot of us think to ourselves I knew they weren't right yeah like I knew it I knew that they weren't the one but you just didn't listen to that part of yourself yes so so let's break it down for people let's help people out we started talking about three very important words connection which you defined chemistry which we've defined in compatibility which we've defined how do people know the difference between connection and chemistry when they meet someone because I find that the science shows that you're experiencing dopamine and cortisol at the same times you're experiencing the reward chemical and stress chemical at the same time which gives you that chemistry feeling which is the feeling of butterflies in your stomach or like do they like me are they into me what should I wear that kind of feeling but then you're talking about a deeper connection how do you hear the difference because I think a lot of us just get swept up in the feeling of I'm So Into that person they're so into me how do you know so I think one is are you even being yourself or can you be yourself with this individual if if you're presenting your representative then this is not a real connection this is them falling for that person that you're presenting but that's not real so to me you have you should be already being yourself but with that person you have a connection with it's a more natural flow we don't have to force it we just feel so much more comfortable around them I think in addition to that is when you when you find yourself all caught up in the moment and caught up in that chemistry again you have to ask yourself what am I really attaching myself to what about what do I really like about this individual what I find is that when it's really about chemistry we're still on the surface you don't really know about them yet you just know you guys had a good time maybe you had fun at this event you guys were able to talk about a lot of different things which is great which is gonna also be important if there is a connection however do you even know what college did they want do you know what kind of Life they want to live you know are you guys really on the same page I think connection is our paths align our purpose is align so for us to align we have to have a deeper understanding of where we're headed and can we head there together so so that's why I think though you may feel it or you may feel like you're feeling it you have to do your due diligence to dig deeper to find out okay is this just I got caught up on the surface or there is something real here yeah and I think once we ask enough questions because I think that's the other big problem we have this experience where we feel this chemistry we're so excited and now we're afraid to ask questions because we don't want to blow up the fantasy yes you know what I'm saying we're just like no no I want to keep believing this is great so let me not ask anything let me not run this person away let me not rock the boat but that's going to be what tells us if this is real or not yes I think you're I think you've hit on something there like we're so scared of losing someone that we're okay with not asking important questions and discovering important truths that actually define whether this relationship is going to last absolutely and that is ultimately going back to your point earlier that is ultimately you not being yourself right you're losing yourself scared that you're going to lose the other person so you're okay with not being yourself do you think it's ever okay this is a funny question I think but I have to ask you because I think it's a healthy discussion do you think it's ever okay to present different sides of yourself in order to attract someone or do you think that you're ultimately setting yourself up for failure in a relationship almost like I think a lot of people they may not become someone completely different but I think a lot of people are like oh I'm gonna show my smart side because it will attract this person or I'm gonna show my this side because they're like that are you saying any of that kind of molding is unhealthy or do you think there's room for that I think anything that is not sustainable is unhealthy so look at it as if I'm a man and I'm meeting this woman I want to impress her so I'm like okay I'm gonna try to spend all my money take a nice five-star restaurant all these things but deep inside I prefer a more simple lifestyle you know I don't like all that extra stuff okay that's horrible that's a sale for disaster that's unhealthy because you can't sustain what you're presenting to that individual that's gonna draw them in so whatever it is another like common example is you'll have women who love to communicate they want to be able to talk to you every single day but because they're afraid of coming off a certain kind of way they'll hold back on their communication so now they'll make it seem like they're okay with talking every now and then we don't always have to text and then this guy falls for that he falls for this low standard I won't call low standard but not having such a high expectation of him when it comes to communication then he finally gets with the woman her true self is going to come out at some point no one can suppress their true self forever it comes out and now it's like what is this I did not sign up for this now we're fighting now we're stressed because you want him to call you more he was used to you not being worried about it so much that's why it's going to always not work out so it's extremely unhealthy unless we're presenting a side of us that is truly us and we can sustain it you've hit on something again that that at the beginning of relationships we often display unrealistic standards and we set those yes and then when things shift and now you're back in reality again the other person's like but wait a minute I thought you were really into me and I even went through that with my wife when we first met I was able to spend pretty much every day with her because I didn't have a job and so I was looking for work I was applying I would go see her at her College every day and I would spend the day with her and I'd be in the library applying for jobs while she was studying yeah and I could see it every day and I think I saw every day potentially for like six months maybe every single day five days a week at least and then when I got a job that wasn't the case anymore because I was at work now and I'd set this unrealistic expectation that we could see each other all the time and even in the beginning I would see her all the time because I'd spend time with her family but we wouldn't spend time with my family because I hadn't told my family yet and so now that my family knew we were trying to split the time and all of a sudden it was like wait a minute we used to spend time at my house and so even in little things like that it took a bit of adapting because I'd set a false standard in our relationship and then thankfully my wife was adapting and she understood and she got it and it was fine but I think for so many people you set unrealistic expectations in who you are yes and that's hard to come back from absolutely yeah and that's why it's so important for us to know who we are so that we can present the real from the jump you know because again A lot of times people you know this idea that we're always changing yes I do think we're always evolving but some of the big shifts that you see are is not because that's just the way life is it's because you did take the time to figure yourself out first and then you got with this person and now you want them to adjust now thank God for you she was able to adjust but there's a lot of people that they can't handle that yeah and now everything falls apart from there so that's why yeah we have to be very careful with what we're presenting from the beginning yeah it's I I agree with you on that that we think people change but actually they just start to understand themselves exactly they went from being completely unconscious about who they were you met an unconscious version of a person yeah and now you think they're changing but they just became conscious of who they are absolutely and but the thing is Stefan as you know like Society doesn't encourage that time of getting to know yourself right when you're young you're not trained in how to think about who you want to be you're trained in thinking about what you want to I do it's about your job it's about your career you're not thinking about who you are as a human being or as a person so how do we in this Society where understanding who you are is not clear it's not encouraged where where does one start or where have you kind of found great insights in trying to discover who we are I would love to see more parents encouraging their children to explore how they're feeling about who they are like what I have found is a lot of people who let's say I I had one client where she wanted to be an actress when she was a little kid uh but parents kind of push in a different direction now she's like a social worker but her desire is still to be an actress like the things that they they wanted to do they they want to do as an adult now you can find back in their childhood in a lot of cases so I feel like too many people have stifled their children's growth in certain areas with limited ideas of well this can't make money or this wouldn't be a good look for the family or whatever the case may be it's like no let them walk in it and see for themselves if that's really where they belong outside of that for me I think the big thing is getting in tune spiritually I'm just a huge believer in that I feel like me finding myself was when I went into what I call my Wilderness period I kind of just shut everything off that I was doing because I used to be all over having fun partying all these different things things and then God kind of slapped me upside my head and I had to like really pull away from everything and go deeper from within and it felt like a process of breaking me down to build me right back up and that's when I start to see things clearer because what I realized is the world is filled with distractions and it's the distractions why we can't see ourselves for who we really are if we simply shut off the distractions long enough you will learn a lot so even if someone just took a year off don't worry you know limit the TV you're watching limit the music you're listening to limit all the internet stuff just really go deeper within yourself spend more time alone spend more time you know thinking and processing you will learn a lot because again a lot of it is it isn't a problem of we don't know ourselves we are not aware and we're not willing to accept and once we allow ourselves to do those two things become aware and then accept it we become free yeah I I mean I agree with you I think that I've always been a big proponent of solitude to understand who you are because as soon as you have another person you now have another person's opinions you have to filter yes as soon as you have another person in front of you you have another person's judgments to filter and so now you can't even say what you truly think about something because you're constantly thinking what does that person think about me and my beliefs and so understanding your beliefs in solitude allows you to be really clear about what your values and beliefs are and and that's what it's there for I think when people get into if we switch to compatibility again the idea we talked about the difference between connection and chemistry but compatibility is really interesting because a lot of people believe that relationships should be hard and they require hard work and a lot of people believe relationships should be easy and everything should just flow where have you kind of discovered your lens on that Spectrum so okay there's a there's a couple ways to look at it I think that most relationships and I'll even be more specific most relations that involve connection and true love are typically hard not because relationships have to be hard but because most people have been hurt by something in their life are holding on to past traumas haven't resolved it once they meet this individual that they feel so strongly about it is scary this is where things get difficult it's the difficultness in how do I handle this how do I manage this you'll have people feel like they're losing themselves but they're not losing themselves their true self is coming out and it's it's the self that's been hiding behind that wall they've been using for quote-unquote protection but I always say the same module to protect you the same as blocking your blessings so now they're being pulled from behind it it's it's makes them feel some kind of way and again people start to mishandle things you also have situations where people are getting bad advice like I'm gonna give one example um there's this uh book called The Game by Neil Strauss I don't know if you ever read that book yeah it was great Neil you know you you answer that world to pick up artistry we learned it and he was great with the women but then once he found that woman that he fell in love with all that stuff doesn't work anymore so you have a lot of men being taught how to handle women in general but they don't understand that's not how you handle the woman you truly love and so now again you have individuals who though they are truly in love with this person they constantly mishandle it with bad Guidance with fear and all these things this is what makes it hard and and I even think that a lot of times the people who are supposed to be together sometimes will have the hardest time getting together but I believe that once we're able to conquer that part of it and actually come together it's not hard yes it takes work I believe we have to be conscious and mindful of how we treat our partners how we show up being willing to listen but I think it's so much easier to do those things with someone you have a connection with and you're truly in love with it's gonna always feel ten times harder when you're in the wrong relationship and I would argue the vast majority of people are in the wrong relationship that's why they're seeing it be so difficult and when you see this whole it's easy typically it's easy because you have two people who are not digging deeper they're they're trying to write out that chemistry we talked about earlier for as long as possible all right so yeah it seems like it's great it's easy no issues but it doesn't really work like that because they're just not facing the reality of the situation so I think we we have to understand that there is going to be some bumps in the road because of all the things that people have been through but once we're able to come together and we know this is our partner this is who we want to share our life with it can get so much better yeah and do you do you think that people have just been given generally the wrong education on how to deal with another person in their life 100 yeah because unfortunately a lot of individuals are giving advice from a bit or hurt place there and and they're trying to disguise it as I'm just looking out for you no you you have inhaled and you cannot properly guide them in a positive and loving Manner and I think that a lot of people you know I always say it's funny how we'll spend a lot of time getting educated for the for the sake of our careers and business but we don't do the same for relationships and yet relationships arguably are even more important than that career business and even if it's not a romantic relationship just relationships in general your ability to coexist with others connect with others is extremely important if you want that business to succeed you have to learn how to establish business relationships there's no way around it so we have to learn how to talk to people listen to people you know what I'm saying and just make make things work when we come together with other individuals so I definitely think that we're just lacking in a lot of education and again too many because there's so many voices on the internet now there's just so much bad advice being given and and the individuals giving it they may be giving like let's say 80 of the advice is accurate but it's that 20 that's completely off that can derail everything and that's the stuff that people are gravitating to and this is causing a lot of problems can you give us some example of some of the like not specific people or anything like that I just mean like could you give example of bad advice and what about it is bad or unhealthy for people to try and put into practice okay so one thing I heard recently was an individual told uh said some of the best advice you can give to men is to not fall in love you know basically just find a woman you want to be with and kind of keep it there the reason why I view that as horrible advice is because you sit down with any man who's lived enough life they will all be able to say there's been at least one time they fail deeply for a woman all right the problem isn't falling deep before a woman the problem is we don't know how to handle it once we get there the problem is because we're not accustomed to handling and processing our emotions a certain kind of way and being this vulnerable we don't understand what's going to be required of us in that moment we also kind of lose sight of because I'm a big believer in masculine and feminine energy and I believe that if she was attracted to you because of that masculine energy that you give off and now you become this emotional wreck because you don't know how to handle all these feelings you have for her well you start to become less attractive to her and it's not that it's not fixable it's fixable but again a lack of understanding and awareness derails the situation so rather than telling men don't fall in love because it's inevitable let's teach them how we walk in love how we make what I call Loving in your masculine how you maintain that energy and still be able to pour into that woman in a way that allows relationship to flourish yeah and how does that work when I think obviously a lot of people in that example that you're giving if if the person is attracted to someone because of their masculine energy but at the same time they want them to be empathetic and compassionate and kind which are generally seen as more feminine energy how does that person balance the two or is that is that not how you're explaining is that no it's about balance so we have to understand we all have masculine and feminine of course within us I'm a Believer in one must be your dominant energy the other is the one you tap into when necessary so as a man you can walk in your masculine and in those moments tap into those things but you can't just stay there all the time all right you can't just become this needy emotional God that's not going to work in the vast majority of cases and so what happens is there's this messaging that's being thrown out there that women don't like good guys I don't believe that's what it is I believe that women become less attracted when you don't know how to exude and walk in your masculine energy it's and and we're hiding behind the label of good guy you can be a good guy and still exude masculine energy and that's the thing and we also think that oh they like bad boys no if you look deeper it's really the masculine energy that that quote-unquote bad boy exudes but what they desire is a mixture of both the same way that we would want a mixture of both we would want a loving sweet woman family woman whatever or and if you're a guy who wants a mask and woman cool but you don't want her to be just that you know you want her to have the ability to tap into that other side when necessary I think we all desire that balance in our partner and I think it's healthy and if we just learn how to maintain it and how to nurture it we would see greater success in relationships yeah what are some of the skills with with mastering that energy that you think we're missing out on and balancing that energy and knowing when to be which and because the reason why it's hard is I think we live in a binary world right like you feel like you have to choose like you're either a bad boy or you're a good girl you are a doer or you're a thinker you're uh winner or you're a loser right like we think like that and some people go okay you need to be masculine or I can be feminine and I I definitely relate to what you were saying like I believe that there is a lot about me that is massively masculine in energy using that language and terminology my drive my ambition how I work my strategic mind and at the same time I consider myself to have a lot of great feminine energy and qualities where it comes to like empowering others and nurturing and the ability to hold deep compassionate space and be empathetic which are all powerful qualities for for everyone right Beyond gender they're powerful qualities and I appreciate and it's taken a long time to know when to be which and it's still and I still make mistakes right there's still sometimes like I should have been more assertive I should have been more affectionate so we live in a world that finds it hard to hold two opposing ideas at the same time yeah we don't know how to do that in any sphere of life let alone within ourselves so what are some of the skills that we can learn in order to nurture both those energies in a healthy way inside of ourselves so I think one it's going to require a lot of if you're already in a relationship it's going to boil down to a lot of transparency and communication you know her if you're that man trying to understand that woman and when you can walk in those two energies her being willing to be honest and open about you know what this was too much over here or I needed some of this over here and in time you're going to become more aware and understanding it's going to be like second nature to you you won't have to overthink it and I think part of it is not overthinking it it's kind of like being ourselves but understanding that we have to learn when this is doing too much and vice versa I also think that in reality for a lot of men especially uh when we're talking about relationships and kind of losing that masculine energy the the underlying issue is fear all right when we become so afraid of losing this woman we lose ourselves and so a lot of men now fall into this very feminine needy space because they're just afraid we have to learn that listen like to me I feel if your partner thinks you're never gonna walk away from them no matter what they do you've lost that's that's a horrible place to be in we have to get to a place where we both understand that as long as we show up the way that we need to show up for each other we have each other's back we will be here but neither of us will tolerate an unhealthy relationship and someone who blatantly does not want to work on making this better I would want my the woman I'm with to feel that way and I need to feel that way once we understand that and you have the confidence of I can walk away if I have to that shifts your energy right there in itself and now you don't find yourself falling into that place where again you start to look a lot more unattractive or for some men they become yes men in their relationships thinking that makes her happy that's turning her off she doesn't want you to be her yes man she wants you to stand up for yourself sometimes give your opinion give your perspective she wants to be able to you know if anything be able to have discussions with you about these things not just you say whatever you want whatever you want whatever you want over time it becomes a problem so I think that once we conquer that fear once we create a space where we can talk about these moments and not feel some kind of way I think sometimes men are not they struggle with taking the criticism from their partner men and women we we all do when we feel when we have actual feelings for someone you know we don't care about you it's not as big of a deal but we're emotionally invested we're more sensitive to it but we have to understand that these criticisms are for the sake of making things better and strengthening this relationship so once we can get to that place it's going to be so much easier to grow in it and then I think it's just a matter of understanding that it's this balance isn't just for your relationship so look at it like from a sports perspective if I'm on a basketball team there may be moments where I need to take the lead and recognize all right everyone else is down someone needs to step up this is my moment and then there's other moments where I realize okay let's say we already have a team captain let me show them that I can follow serve do what needs to be done so that the team can win it's just becoming aware of what the moment requires you know and again I think the more in tune we get the more in tune we get with ourselves and the more in tune we get with our partner the easier it becomes to find that balance that's the challenge right the challenge is just how much patience we have with ourselves and others to realize that you walked into an imbalance unbalanced situation and now it's like how much patience how much time are we going to give it to get to that because the challenge is I think we walk into a situation thinking it's perfect whereas we should be walking into a relationship knowing it's imperfect absolutely and we're going to learn and figure it out together and I think that's what sets us up for failure is because we walk into it going it's perfect and deep down we know it isn't but somehow we gloss over it whereas I find when I know we're gonna fight when I know we're gonna argue and I know there's going to be disagreements that sets me up to develop the skills I need in order to navigate those things yes but if I assume like oh we're never gonna fight and I always get that right we always meet someone who goes to I mean a friend who goes to me Jay we never fight I'm like how long have you been together because I don't I don't know anyone who never fights I get that no one has to get to like yeah the heights of fights yeah I did that I did that it doesn't have to be a heated fight but I don't know anyone who doesn't disagree there you go all right right I think that's important for people to understand yeah there's a difference yes you have some individuals out there that'll say arguing is normal it's healthy and to me it's like listen if we're talking about arguing where we're now Crossing disrespectful lines negative lines you know the way that we the tone we take with each other all these things that's not healthy yes it may happen you should be prepared for that but it does let's not normalize it just gonna keep doing this and it's it is what it is but you're right to to be with each other long enough and never have a disagreement that's extremely rare okay extremely rare and I do think that again as you mentioned we have to be ready for those moments we have to understand and going back to how we find that balance especially as men and even for women it's recognizing so for example if my partner is in a very heated moment let's say she's in her masculine right now all right she's getting rough well meeting her with more masculine is probably going to only make things worse yeah this is the time for me to be compassionate go to her hold her calm her down bring her peace in that moment you see because it we need to balance each other out same thing on the flip side if I'm all heated and I'm I'm extra passionate and then my woman now comes with that same energy that's it now where button has this is her moment to say no let me now be the one to soften the moment up bring that Sweetness in there and everybody calms down so it's learning how to feed off of each other and recognize okay they're over here let me bring it back over here and now we can work from that point and we're both good the problem is that we all see compassion and sweetness and kindness in those moments as a weakness we don't want to be that person because we see that as losing we see that as giving in we see that as us losing our power and strength in a relationship if we become the comforter or if we become the carer right like that's that's a perception that is the perception and we have to change that that is the power position so who is more powerful the person that lets the energy dictate them how they're going to react or the person that brings the energy and dictates how they're going to make this situation play out so if I'm coming in to calm it down and being all sweet because I'm trying to bring peace here I'm in the power position I'm not losing anything I'm gonna gain more peace and happiness and Harmony if I succeed in what I'm trying to do so we have to get out of that mindset of this makes us weaker and that is the big key of it that's a big problem that for a lot of women who struggle with their feminine energy that's a big issue where they feel that being feminine is weakness it's what got them taken advantage of and got them hurt but I always say it's not the feminine energy that's the problem it's who you give it to do they respect it did they honor it you know it's the same thing as a man does she respect your masculine if she doesn't then that might just be a sign you're with the wrong person but don't stop being that guy because the woman who's best for you is going to need that in those moments that that's exactly what it is is that when people have been their best selves for the wrong person that person brings out the worst in them yes right like when someone's been their best loving kindness self but someone took advantage of it that person now thinks next time I've got to be aggressive I've got to be you know powerful I've got to be strong in this way and I feel like that's kind of what most people are dealing with we know that is that you're just dealing with a wounded version of someone yes not a healed version of someone but I think people struggle to trust again and again especially when they see the same patterns in the person they're weird and I guess the question is why do we keep making the same mistakes because I feel like a lot of us keep dating the same people yeah and there's a part of us that also just keeps closing off or being more wounded it's almost like if you cut yourself you now walk around with your hand over that you don't want to get cut again and then if you lead it off and it gets cut even deeper now you're even more conscious of that and so I find that people are doing that where they're closing their heart more and more because it's been so misused and abused and I understand that I understand people don't want to be abused and misused but I guess the question is how do people find people that they know respect them so that they can be their best version or be a better version of themselves so you know you can't drive out Darkness with more Darkness you can't expose someone who's gonna hurt you by being someone who's closed off and holding back yourself we have it's kind of what we were just talking about we have to look at being vulnerable loving and open as not just well I'm setting myself to be hurt no it's how you expose people faster if I come with that energy and you cannot respect it match it then I know you don't belong here but if I hold back I give you a free pass to hold back so now we have two individuals who are hiding behind their walls because it's comfortable there but you can't really see what's what do we really have in front of us those walls are blinding you and you can't properly evaluate the situation so one we we got to get to a place of healing from our past so that we're not just walking around with the hand over the cut no you you gotta let the cup breathe you gotta let it heal all right holding on put your hand on there is delaying the process and like you said all that's gonna happen is when you finally take your hand off but you're taking it off with the wrong person and you haven't learned see what I want people to realize is your actions weren't the problem meaning you being loving sweet kind compassionate wasn't the problem it was the person separate those two things that you don't stop doing the good things now granted are there levels to this to where we have to learn again if I'm thinking about a man if you got so deeply emotional to where you kind of lost your your masculine energy and you became very needy okay you can say all right I need to continue to be loving but I know I have to learn how to draw a line I have to learn how not to cross that moment and again you only crossed it because you were unhealthy to begin with you only cross it because you were afraid to begin with once you get to that place where you're healthy and confident you won't find yourself Crossing that line anymore yeah you won't tolerate certain things anymore so we have to heal we have to be confident and we have to let our light shine so that we can expose what's in front of us easier that's a brilliant answer I I love the differentiation between how sharing your light is not the problem the person's the problem because we yeah we start to doubt whether being a good person a loving person is actually what wins in the world yeah and the truth is that it does win but it has to win with someone who can receive it and absolutely hold that space with you and share that space with you and I find that a lot of people keep giving that energy to the wrong person because we feel we can make them better right like there's this feeling of like I can change this person I can make them better I can heal them there's some of us want to fix people yeah and that means we assume the person we're with is broken and I think this is such a subconscious thing like if you're always critiquing if you're always picking at stuff with your partner chances are you don't think they're great like just now you think there's some issues with them when you think that you can fix them and they're broken tell us about that angle where now we're almost we've talked about being the loving and kind person but sometimes we're being the person that thinks we're loving and kind because we want to improve someone but that person doesn't want to improve one big problem is that what's really driving people to pick that individual is that by being the one that can upgrade you improve you I have more value here by having more value I have a false sense of security you have to appreciate me you're less likely to walk away you're less likely to cheat because you're lucky to have me I feel like I'm the prize here but those situations never really work because again you're choosing someone that is not capable of pouring into you the way you need you're basing this off of what you could do for them and that's not sustainable and you're choosing them because again you have more emotional control here what happens to so many people especially women it's something that I call the unhealthy love cycle of women where women in their first love experience outside of any childhood trauma may have experienced they're their most loving they're just out there they go all the way in but that typically happens at a younger age at an age where men are not mature enough to handle those kind of emotions that level of commitment so on and so forth so she gets hurt after she gets hurt her moment is saying to herself I will never let this happen to me again so now the woman starts to consciously or subconsciously choose men who are I don't want to say lower than hurt but essentially a man who does not take her there he's good enough to be with but I'm not that vulnerable with him he can't hurt me like that first love hurt me and so that Dynamic usually leads to picking that person I can fix I can make better who will appreciate and respect me but again it doesn't work out and many times you'll see these same situations the guy will move on to cheat on her not because and I have to say this because some women think yeah he's just being a man no not because he's a man but because you chose a man that you could never be the woman that he needed and he could never be the man that you needed once he kind of either gets what he needs from you to build himself up or the Smoke Clears from him being infatuated with you he starts to realize I'm not getting everything that I desire and now you building him up has brought him more attention from other women so now the the difference between what you're not giving him and what someone else is willing to give him becomes way clearer now the Temptation gets way stronger and he ends up doing something or she ends up cheating as well because he's safe but he doesn't fulfill her he doesn't satisfy her he he doesn't excite her in any kind of way and that's why I always said earlier like the safe choice is almost always the wrong choice but that is a function of people trying to choose these fix or uppers because they think it's going to give them some leverage there it's leverage that's it yeah it's leverage yeah how do you know when it's time to go like how do you know when it's like I feel like this is a common question where it's like how do you know when it's just I've tried everything we've tried together tried our best maybe we went to therapy maybe we got a coach or maybe you know maybe we didn't do those things how do I just know that I feel like I need to go but I'm scared of being alone yeah I'm I'm scared of dealing with the reality that I put in a lot of energy and I feel like you said this earlier but a lot of people stay in something for a lot longer than they should because they'd rather not be alone yes they'd rather not face reality they'd rather not lose two years of their life they'd rather lose two more thinking that this this should stay like how do you know when it's time to go let me first say this yes I think I think Society needs to change their thinking as far as Letting Go doesn't always mean it can't work out later it's just that it cannot work out under these circumstances all right because some people say well I feel like they're the one okay maybe they are but maybe the time is not right and it's letting go that will allow you both to do what needs to be done in your own personal lives that would allow you to come back together and have something way more amazing so that's number one thing to consider but outside of that it's when one if that person is unwilling to put in the work necessary it's time to go there's like so many times I'll I'll have a video go up about communication and someone will comment saying I've tried talking to him and he doesn't want to talk to me and in my head I'm like why are you still with them if he refuses to talk to you you've already tried there's nothing else to do but people will let it Linger on and continue why they can why they consistently complain or unhappy about this specific issue it's not gonna magically get better they're not gonna just change it just because all of a sudden they see oh it needs to change no if they're fighting it now they have no reason to change it and what people have to understand you know especially with this whole trying to fix people up healing and facing your traumas is one of the hardest things for people to do so if they already have you in their life they're essentially getting the incentive or the benefit of relationship without having to do the deeper work it's almost like if I'm at a job and the job says you need to have a master's degree to work here but we're going to hire you anyway and give you time to get that master's degree if getting that degree is super hard to you you're gonna drag that out as long as possible yeah you may never get the degree until they fire you when they fire you and you realize oh my gosh if I don't do this I'll never get this person back I'll never get this opportunity back now they might go and get it because it's very tough to walk down the path of the healing process so if they're not willing to work on it you guys have already discussed it and I think that's a big thing because there's a lot of relationships that end and the couples don't even know what the real issue was so the communication they'll say well we talked about no you guys argued you guys lashed out there wasn't a clear communication as to what the problem was what is expected how do we go about this if you've done that and I believe one of the most effective ways to do that is through a letter because I feel like verbal communication of deep issues and concerns they typically don't go well you know people get distracted they forget what they want to say the other person gets defensive they're not they're listening to rebuttal not to understand but when there's a letter involved it gives you time to get everything out you can you can evaluate your tone leave no stone unturned and now they have an opportunity to process it on their time to really take it in and then you guys can come together and discuss the letter and now it's so much easier to stay on point and get everything covered if we've done that and they're still unwilling or there's still no progress It's Time to Go yeah that's great that's great advice and I for me that's the biggest one it's like you can't make something last if only one person's working on it you can't keep hoping and waiting and wishing and and like you said that ending doesn't mean forever and often I found that two people need to grow individually to be able to grow collectively and we're forcing growing together so hard but we need space to grow and if you can't grow together chances are you need to grow apart in order to see whether you grow together again or grow for someone else and all of those options are okay but we put so much pressure on people to grow together that they grow apart yeah and actually if they chose to grow apart and grow separately they could come back together if they learn the lessons and I think that's a mistake too though sometimes people think I'm gonna go learn this lesson for this person I meet a lot of people they're like okay they broke up with me because I wasn't XYZ now I'm gonna go become XYZ to win them back yeah and I always find I'm just like well no you should go become XYZ if you think you were missing XYZ but not to win them back because you don't know what they're gonna do what's your take on people trying to win people back so I 100 agree with you like if we're trying to learn or grow it needs to be for the benefit of who we are and just whoever we deal with so was almost like if I was a bad Communicator in this relationship I shouldn't learn to better communicate for that person I need to better communicate for whoever I'm going to be with if you can't see it in that light then maybe you're looking at the wrong thing my thing is this I think it all depends on what the details of the situation was what led to the breakup what were you overlooking what was missing are these fixable issues because a lot of people are trying to win back someone where the issues are not resolved so it's like what's the point of going back we're just going to go in the same cycle all over again they're letting this idea of I miss them I don't want to be without them blind them from the fact that you two did not get along well or you two don't want the same things or YouTube just whatever it is maybe there's a lack of sexual satisfaction I don't know why I feel the need to mention that but it happens a lot of times you have to stay focused on what led to the end and can this be corrected if it can cool but as you mentioned listen correcting it does not guarantee you they're coming back and even if they will come back you don't know when they may need so you may have figured yourself out in six months they might need a year and I would argue if you guys are truly meant for each other and at the end of the year you need a year too you're just overlooking some things and you're rushing the process because you want to get back to them yeah it's I've never found a situation where it was truly only one person who had problems and the other person was squeaky clean no no you thought you were but you got some stuff too you needed to correct of course so I think we have to be honest with ourselves and just keep striving to be better and rather than focus on winning them back just become the best you because if you do and there's a true connection there the opportunity will present itself again and you too will be able to make something of it and the struggle is that when people finally make that decision to break up or let go the study showed that the parts of your brain that are activated in a breakup are the same as detoxing from cocaine right like you're literally trying to detox so you can have a craving yeah for someone that's bad for you yeah or also it says that the areas of the brain that are activated in a breakup are the areas that are the same with physical pain so if someone like punching the stomach the reason why we say like my heart feels broken is because it literally feels like something's broken yeah so when you're going through a breakup when you're feeling the craving to be with that person again studies show that eight over eighty percent of people are looking at what their exes are doing on social media right probably through a Finster account or whatever but you have to you have to know what are some of the healthiest tips that you've given to people and the people that you've worked with that have genuinely helped people move through a breaker the first thing is to ask yourself again why was I even there why am I holding on to this individual again I think sometimes we get so blinded by just the experience or our desire to have this person for whatever reason that we Overlook what was really missing or why this could not work anyway what you'll also find is and I'm sure there's probably a study on it where if you if they broke up with you you ever see a situation it happens on TV a lot where the person could be like okay I'm gonna break up with my partner they're planning on it they've been practicing in their head right it took them a couple weeks to muster up the strength they're about to do it and then the partner breaks up with them yeah now it's oh my gosh I gotta get them back yeah so it's like you just forgot this whole time that was your plan yeah it just gave you the past to do it but now because we don't like to be the one being let go of now we're fighting hard to get it back yeah so we have to really not fall into these little traps that happen to us as human beings our brains just playing tricks on us or something where we confuse these emotions for oh my gosh I must really love them or even like you said you go into that detox and because you miss I always tell people no matter how bad the relationship was there's always good moments so if you're trying to break free you can't just let your brain focus on the good moments you have to remind yourself why this doesn't work but if you keep focusing on the good you start to make yourself think oh because I missed this good moment I must miss them and there's this quote that says sometimes you're not missing the person you're missing the feeling so you've got to be able to differentiate those two things so getting back to how we get over these breakups is recognizing why were we really there to begin with you know could this actually work the next thing is you know I'm a huge believer that a lot of times a breakup is a blessing in disguise even if there is a chance that you two can work together or this is the one for you you may have needed this time to re-evaluate and get things in order something is obviously wrong even if you it may be something as deep as because I've seen situations where everything was going amazingly well on the surface and the person broke up with them let's say the woman lets go of the man so to the man that's really confusing but what it was is that that woman she had not healed from her past relationships and this relationship being so good was scaring her and what happens is the the better you are the scarier it becomes for her she's looking for something to be wrong she has to validate her fear somehow wow when she can't find it she'll either sabotage the relationship or she'll run from it So to that man it may seem like this is so unfair which yeah it sucks but if this woman didn't break up with you now you were inevitably gonna face this same ending but at a worse time yeah all right this is still best that is happening now at least if she can go do what she needs to do there's a chance for this to come back around later but it's hard for us to see it in the moment so I think just really we also have to focus on our healing whenever a breakup happens the mistake we make is that we think it's about healing from the breakup no it's healing from everything you've been through you've probably been sleeping under the rug your childhood trauma for years maybe the last two three relationships whatever it is so and and not healing from those things is contributing to your struggle to get past this breakup and contributing to why you even chose this person to begin with I'm a huge believer that if you haven't healed you are 90 likely to choose the wrong person yeah it's just too difficult to pick that person that you truly love and can truly love you and accept that level of vulnerability when you have still not resolved your past traumas and past hurts yeah so to me that's the next big thing is just focus on your healing process because in that process you will also be able to see more clearly if this is really for you or not like walking around unhealed is like walking around with broken glasses you you can't see straight no matter how hard you try but healing will clear up your vision really really fast and now it'd be like oh wait a minute I didn't belong there yeah you know thank God the broke breakup happened you know now I'm in a better place I move forward so to me I think and I would say in addition to those things is just have an accountability partner whether that's friend coach therapist someone that can help keep you in check help remind you what you need to do someone that you know you have to talk to and update what's going on so you feel like okay I don't want to come back so I'm saying I'm doing the same thing over and over again it doesn't guarantee success but it helps it helps move the needle some so I would highly encourage that that one mindset you spoke about that that changes everything and it hit me today I was just thinking if we were just able in a moment to recognize that something painful now was going to be good for us in five years time that would change so many things in our life yes but we're so poor at dealing with current pain yeah even if it means future joy that we just can't accept that I have to go through this like in everything right like knowing that someone breaking up with you just saved you 10 years of a wasted life is so much more than knowing you're gonna have to go through a few months of pain and 10 months of pain maybe it's a bit longer maybe it's two three years but we just have to get our head around that that sometimes the best things that happen to you are protecting more of your life than the pain that they're causing you need the Peace of knowing I did what I needed to do that's it yeah because anytime you feel like well maybe I could have done this but I could have done that leaves the door open for doubt do it well exactly so it's like and that's why I'm such a big believer in you know there's people who say well once they're done they're done they'll just move on and I'm like no no Express Yourself get everything off your chest because you don't need anything to linger and you questioning well what if I did this different no make sure speak your full piece and now you can say all right I did what I had to do it is what it is I move forward and I mean it makes it easier it may not make it a hundred percent you know not an issue whatsoever but it's gonna be easier and also also for me that's why like my relationship with God is so important because that's where I find my peace in dealing with a situation that doesn't work out the way I want to I always tell myself okay if this isn't working out God has something better for me you know if this is happening right now there's a purpose because I know if I followed his guidance throughout this process there's no need for me to question why is this the current outcome there's a reason for this and I've been through these things enough times to see as you mentioned the reward is going to come it may come next week it may come years from now it will come and I'll be able to see how it all connected yeah Stefan it's been incredible talking to you man this has been such a great back-to-back flowing conversation uh we end every on purpose episode with the final five which is like a rapid fire which means every question has to be answered with one word to one sentence maximum okay so here are your final five the first question is what's the best relationship advice you've ever received or heard or given it is to love fully lovefully and be yourself because as I said earlier that's how you will expose quicker who is for you and who isn't for you second question what is the worst relationship advice you've ever heard or received get under someone to get over someone [Laughter] uh question number three uh how would you defin	how to establish business relationships there's no way around it so we have to learn how to talk to people listen to people you know what I'm saying and just make make things work when we come together with other individuals so I definitely think that we're just lacking in a lot of education and again too many because there's so many voices on the internet now there's just so much bad advice being given and and the individuals giving it they may be giving like let's say 80 of the advice is accurate but it's that 20 that's completely off that can derail everything and that's the stuff that people are gravitating to and this is causing a lot of problems can you give us some example of some of the like not specific people or anything like that I just mean like could you give example of bad advice and what about it is bad or unhealthy for people to try and put into practice okay so one thing I heard recently was an individual told uh said some of the best advice you can give to men is to not fall in love you know basically just find a woman you want to be with and kind of keep it there the reason why I view that as horrible advice is because you sit down with any man who's lived enough life they will all be able to say there's been at least one time they fail	-2	4	6	how to establish business relationships there's no way around it so we have to learn how to talk to people listen to people you know what I'm saying and just make make things work when we come together with other individuals so I definitely think that we're just lacking in a lot of education and again too many because there's so many voices on the internet now there's just so much bad advice being given and and the individuals giving it they may be giving like let's say 80 of the advice is accurate but it's that 20 that's completely off that can derail everything and that's the stuff that people are gravitating to and this is causing a lot of problems	can you give us some example of some of the like not specific people or anything like that I just mean like could you give example of bad advice and what about it is bad or unhealthy for people to try and put into practice	3,5,6	2,3,4	3	5	6	2	3	4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPQBcb9wf8Q	4,056	mPQBcb9wf8Q	2023-03-27 00:00:00	you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you're wasting your time the best-selling author and host the number one Health and Wellness podcast on purpose with Jay Shetty what are the signs that someone deeply loves you because I feel like we live in this world where we're always wondering do they love me do they like me do they really like me are they really into me how do you know when you deeply love someone and when someone deeply loves you how do you even know so I'm gonna start with an answer that people probably won't expect to me the first key is do you truly love them because look at it like this to me a lot of people get caught up in infatuation um they have unhealthy attachments they have different motivations to why they decided this is the person that I want and that can make them feel like they're in love but to me true love flows both ways it's not a one-sided thing so when you can say I I'm not into them like that if we look deep into that situation I can almost guarantee what we'll find is infatuation attachment something else but when you can say no I feel it too I'm deeply in love with them I think that's your first key because without that nothing else matters because a lot of people are choosing Partners based off of what they love me so much so I assume it's safe here and this is a good choice to make but the safe choice is usually the wrong choice and a lot of these people select this individual thinking everything's going to be okay but because you're not really into them you can never be what they need and they were never truly what you needed which is why you never even got to that level with them so to choose them without first evaluating do you truly love them would not be wise yeah that's that's a great question and I think people struggle with that question too because I think we think of love as so many different things wrapped into one for example I could think I love someone because of how they treat me I could think I love someone because they have one quality that I really wish I had or I could love someone because I think that they're out of my league and they give me a bit of attention yeah and so what we think is love is so complex and so wide that we never stop to ask ourselves like what does love mean like what's the definition of love like how do I Define love so how do you define love and how do you encourage other people to create their definitions of Love well for me first off is always God is love and then when we take it from there love is about kindness compassion patience understanding a willingness to be selfless important to that individual but I think what's also important for people to understand is when we're trying to apply it to romantic relationships we have to understand that there's other ingredients that are necessary before we can move forward so you could love someone dearly but if they are not emotionally ready because maybe they haven't healed from their past maybe there's still some things that need to work out in their life then it wouldn't be time to move forward in a relationship with them and we have this bad habit of the minute we feel like there's love there we want to move forward exactly and as you mentioned we can get caught up sometimes in but we love them because of what they do for us but what are you prepared to do for them love is about giving all right so we have to ask ourselves okay do we know what their needs are are we willing to fulfill those needs because if not maybe this wasn't love maybe it just felt good in the moment maybe you got caught up in the hype and that's okay it happens to almost all of us if not all of us at some point in life but we have to just be real very clear with ourselves about what's really driving the intention right now but I think all those things I mentioned is what encompasses love of and that's like the foundation of it and then from there we have to look at some other things to see how we can move forward so many times like you you convince yourself something's love and what I find really interesting is that so many people fall in love too fast and no one wants to go for the slow patient understanding love which is what love requires you just said love is kind love is patient love is understanding those things take time I think those things take time to nurture and to to make sure that we're doing it correctly for each other so it's about learning each other's Love Languages and how we make it work in within that Dynamic I think also because so many people are not used to dealing with emotions at on that level being that vulnerable people mishandle it all right so it takes time for us to get to a place so we understand how to manage this and work through this however I think that I'm a huge believer in connection and I believe connection is like your spirit recognizing its match and it's very instant when you speak to couples who said they experience a connection they'll tell you first conversation first time meeting first date first week it was pretty fast so to me the the recognizing of something deeper being here can happen very quickly but how we now cultivate that and how we move forward is where we need to take our time and make sure we're not rushing and overlooking certain important issues that need to be discussed and addressed first to me it's the understanding of chemistry versus compatibility and the idea that there needs to be a spark there needs to be a connection that I feel with someone like you're saying on a deeper level but I find that I find that most people are not Adept and knowing whether the connection they feel with someone is deeper or physical yeah like I would say that it's easy to it you can often feel a spark with if you meet a lot of people you can feel a spot with a lot of people but that doesn't mean that they're the right person to build a relationship absolutely right yes so it's connection to me is a very rare occurrence right yes so I feel that people who've actually experienced it they can tell you maybe once in their life if you're lucky two times maybe all right but it's not this thing that happens with everybody whereas chemistry uh feeling of spark these things can happen with a lot of different people yeah so I do think there's there's this education that's needed to understand how we differentiate these things so that we don't confuse them because I see a lot of people take that chemistry and think oh this is it this is the one it's like but you had chemistry with the last five people why is this one the one and not them so I do think we have to be careful with that yeah I think so so we're on the same page there's three things there's connection on the deeper level there's chemistry which is like the spark on a more superficial level and then there's compatibility which is like what makes get lost and I can relate to that with my wife I definitely felt so I I'm one of those people who I kind of knew from the first few moments when I met my wife before she was my wife was like I was like yeah this is my person like I felt that way yeah for sure I felt that connection and there was chemistry there too but it had to be turned into compatibility in order to create a long lasting relationship we've been together for 10 years we're still learning building going through everything but that was a big part of it so that I can get behind is do you see it that way too or is there something different in so how do you see it believe it or not I used to make compatibility the least important but that was because I was looking at it the wrong way once I kind of looked at the definition again and compatibility is about two people coexisting in harmony yeah then I was like okay no you you have to have that I just I got caught up more so in like let's say a dating site says okay we're gonna decide who's compatible so I view compatible as like an on the paper it looks good it's supposed to match but you can have a lot of people who are supposed to be compatible and it doesn't work absolutely so I think that it's compatibility is that add-on once we have the connection and the chemistry now we have to create that Harmony which is the compatibility yes I agree with you and and it is interesting how that word compatibility is thrown around and you're so right that compatibility on paper doesn't mean compatibility in real life exactly and to me compatibility really has another word inside of it which is like adaptability and that deeper understanding of an individual where you know how much you're willing to adapt around certain parts of the relationship but we'll get to that I think a lot of people like you know and and that's where we got into this conversation around what is slow a lot of people are waiting to feel like is this person wasting my time are they the one and so they don't have a deeper connection maybe they had that spark of chemistry and now that's kind of subsided how do you know if someone's wasting your time how do you know if you're letting yourself be used or wasted in that way so to me again I think it always starts with self and you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you because just use an example let's say you're a woman and the only reason why you're holding on to this guy is because he's a nice guy you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you figure let me try to make it work you're wasting your time this is where you're setting yourself up for disaster every single time so if it's not born out of a true connection love a genuine desire you really like this individual of course there's always things we have to work through but is the foundation strong enough for us to say okay we can make something special here and I think once we are honest with ourselves that kind of helps answer the question because sometimes we get so caught up trying to animal lies the other individual that is like we get in our heads and now we're missing the mark on what's really important here and we can't always say for sure what's going on with them I will say that in general if this person isn't willing to talk about things they're wasting your time if they're not willing to address or correct things that have been talked about they're wasting your time if you guys aren't on the same page about what you want and where you want to go in life wasting time so there are some things I think we can just look at and say listen this is pointless here but a lot of times and I have to say this especially for women women's intuition is extremely powerful I'm a huge believer in it and I feel like women know very early this isn't it but they rationalize reasons to convince themselves to give this man a chance and this again is a waste of time because it just doesn't work I've seen people turn what should have been maybe a couple weeks of dating into years of being married to someone they were not happy with all because they did not listen to themselves from the beginning they knew what it was but they just could not accept it for what it was yeah and I love that point on intuition it's almost like when a relationship finally ends a lot of us think to ourselves I knew they weren't right yeah like I knew it I knew that they weren't the one but you just didn't listen to that part of yourself yes so so let's break it down for people let's help people out we started talking about three very important words connection which you defined chemistry which we've defined in compatibility which we've defined how do people know the difference between connection and chemistry when they meet someone because I find that the science shows that you're experiencing dopamine and cortisol at the same times you're experiencing the reward chemical and stress chemical at the same time which gives you that chemistry feeling which is the feeling of butterflies in your stomach or like do they like me are they into me what should I wear that kind of feeling but then you're talking about a deeper connection how do you hear the difference because I think a lot of us just get swept up in the feeling of I'm So Into that person they're so into me how do you know so I think one is are you even being yourself or can you be yourself with this individual if if you're presenting your representative then this is not a real connection this is them falling for that person that you're presenting but that's not real so to me you have you should be already being yourself but with that person you have a connection with it's a more natural flow we don't have to force it we just feel so much more comfortable around them I think in addition to that is when you when you find yourself all caught up in the moment and caught up in that chemistry again you have to ask yourself what am I really attaching myself to what about what do I really like about this individual what I find is that when it's really about chemistry we're still on the surface you don't really know about them yet you just know you guys had a good time maybe you had fun at this event you guys were able to talk about a lot of different things which is great which is gonna also be important if there is a connection however do you even know what college did they want do you know what kind of Life they want to live you know are you guys really on the same page I think connection is our paths align our purpose is align so for us to align we have to have a deeper understanding of where we're headed and can we head there together so so that's why I think though you may feel it or you may feel like you're feeling it you have to do your due diligence to dig deeper to find out okay is this just I got caught up on the surface or there is something real here yeah and I think once we ask enough questions because I think that's the other big problem we have this experience where we feel this chemistry we're so excited and now we're afraid to ask questions because we don't want to blow up the fantasy yes you know what I'm saying we're just like no no I want to keep believing this is great so let me not ask anything let me not run this person away let me not rock the boat but that's going to be what tells us if this is real or not yes I think you're I think you've hit on something there like we're so scared of losing someone that we're okay with not asking important questions and discovering important truths that actually define whether this relationship is going to last absolutely and that is ultimately going back to your point earlier that is ultimately you not being yourself right you're losing yourself scared that you're going to lose the other person so you're okay with not being yourself do you think it's ever okay this is a funny question I think but I have to ask you because I think it's a healthy discussion do you think it's ever okay to present different sides of yourself in order to attract someone or do you think that you're ultimately setting yourself up for failure in a relationship almost like I think a lot of people they may not become someone completely different but I think a lot of people are like oh I'm gonna show my smart side because it will attract this person or I'm gonna show my this side because they're like that are you saying any of that kind of molding is unhealthy or do you think there's room for that I think anything that is not sustainable is unhealthy so look at it as if I'm a man and I'm meeting this woman I want to impress her so I'm like okay I'm gonna try to spend all my money take a nice five-star restaurant all these things but deep inside I prefer a more simple lifestyle you know I don't like all that extra stuff okay that's horrible that's a sale for disaster that's unhealthy because you can't sustain what you're presenting to that individual that's gonna draw them in so whatever it is another like common example is you'll have women who love to communicate they want to be able to talk to you every single day but because they're afraid of coming off a certain kind of way they'll hold back on their communication so now they'll make it seem like they're okay with talking every now and then we don't always have to text and then this guy falls for that he falls for this low standard I won't call low standard but not having such a high expectation of him when it comes to communication then he finally gets with the woman her true self is going to come out at some point no one can suppress their true self forever it comes out and now it's like what is this I did not sign up for this now we're fighting now we're stressed because you want him to call you more he was used to you not being worried about it so much that's why it's going to always not work out so it's extremely unhealthy unless we're presenting a side of us that is truly us and we can sustain it you've hit on something again that that at the beginning of relationships we often display unrealistic standards and we set those yes and then when things shift and now you're back in reality again the other person's like but wait a minute I thought you were really into me and I even went through that with my wife when we first met I was able to spend pretty much every day with her because I didn't have a job and so I was looking for work I was applying I would go see her at her College every day and I would spend the day with her and I'd be in the library applying for jobs while she was studying yeah and I could see it every day and I think I saw every day potentially for like six months maybe every single day five days a week at least and then when I got a job that wasn't the case anymore because I was at work now and I'd set this unrealistic expectation that we could see each other all the time and even in the beginning I would see her all the time because I'd spend time with her family but we wouldn't spend time with my family because I hadn't told my family yet and so now that my family knew we were trying to split the time and all of a sudden it was like wait a minute we used to spend time at my house and so even in little things like that it took a bit of adapting because I'd set a false standard in our relationship and then thankfully my wife was adapting and she understood and she got it and it was fine but I think for so many people you set unrealistic expectations in who you are yes and that's hard to come back from absolutely yeah and that's why it's so important for us to know who we are so that we can present the real from the jump you know because again A lot of times people you know this idea that we're always changing yes I do think we're always evolving but some of the big shifts that you see are is not because that's just the way life is it's because you did take the time to figure yourself out first and then you got with this person and now you want them to adjust now thank God for you she was able to adjust but there's a lot of people that they can't handle that yeah and now everything falls apart from there so that's why yeah we have to be very careful with what we're presenting from the beginning yeah it's I I agree with you on that that we think people change but actually they just start to understand themselves exactly they went from being completely unconscious about who they were you met an unconscious version of a person yeah and now you think they're changing but they just became conscious of who they are absolutely and but the thing is Stefan as you know like Society doesn't encourage that time of getting to know yourself right when you're young you're not trained in how to think about who you want to be you're trained in thinking about what you want to I do it's about your job it's about your career you're not thinking about who you are as a human being or as a person so how do we in this Society where understanding who you are is not clear it's not encouraged where where does one start or where have you kind of found great insights in trying to discover who we are I would love to see more parents encouraging their children to explore how they're feeling about who they are like what I have found is a lot of people who let's say I I had one client where she wanted to be an actress when she was a little kid uh but parents kind of push in a different direction now she's like a social worker but her desire is still to be an actress like the things that they they wanted to do they they want to do as an adult now you can find back in their childhood in a lot of cases so I feel like too many people have stifled their children's growth in certain areas with limited ideas of well this can't make money or this wouldn't be a good look for the family or whatever the case may be it's like no let them walk in it and see for themselves if that's really where they belong outside of that for me I think the big thing is getting in tune spiritually I'm just a huge believer in that I feel like me finding myself was when I went into what I call my Wilderness period I kind of just shut everything off that I was doing because I used to be all over having fun partying all these different things things and then God kind of slapped me upside my head and I had to like really pull away from everything and go deeper from within and it felt like a process of breaking me down to build me right back up and that's when I start to see things clearer because what I realized is the world is filled with distractions and it's the distractions why we can't see ourselves for who we really are if we simply shut off the distractions long enough you will learn a lot so even if someone just took a year off don't worry you know limit the TV you're watching limit the music you're listening to limit all the internet stuff just really go deeper within yourself spend more time alone spend more time you know thinking and processing you will learn a lot because again a lot of it is it isn't a problem of we don't know ourselves we are not aware and we're not willing to accept and once we allow ourselves to do those two things become aware and then accept it we become free yeah I I mean I agree with you I think that I've always been a big proponent of solitude to understand who you are because as soon as you have another person you now have another person's opinions you have to filter yes as soon as you have another person in front of you you have another person's judgments to filter and so now you can't even say what you truly think about something because you're constantly thinking what does that person think about me and my beliefs and so understanding your beliefs in solitude allows you to be really clear about what your values and beliefs are and and that's what it's there for I think when people get into if we switch to compatibility again the idea we talked about the difference between connection and chemistry but compatibility is really interesting because a lot of people believe that relationships should be hard and they require hard work and a lot of people believe relationships should be easy and everything should just flow where have you kind of discovered your lens on that Spectrum so okay there's a there's a couple ways to look at it I think that most relationships and I'll even be more specific most relations that involve connection and true love are typically hard not because relationships have to be hard but because most people have been hurt by something in their life are holding on to past traumas haven't resolved it once they meet this individual that they feel so strongly about it is scary this is where things get difficult it's the difficultness in how do I handle this how do I manage this you'll have people feel like they're losing themselves but they're not losing themselves their true self is coming out and it's it's the self that's been hiding behind that wall they've been using for quote-unquote protection but I always say the same module to protect you the same as blocking your blessings so now they're being pulled from behind it it's it's makes them feel some kind of way and again people start to mishandle things you also have situations where people are getting bad advice like I'm gonna give one example um there's this uh book called The Game by Neil Strauss I don't know if you ever read that book yeah it was great Neil you know you you answer that world to pick up artistry we learned it and he was great with the women but then once he found that woman that he fell in love with all that stuff doesn't work anymore so you have a lot of men being taught how to handle women in general but they don't understand that's not how you handle the woman you truly love and so now again you have individuals who though they are truly in love with this person they constantly mishandle it with bad Guidance with fear and all these things this is what makes it hard and and I even think that a lot of times the people who are supposed to be together sometimes will have the hardest time getting together but I believe that once we're able to conquer that part of it and actually come together it's not hard yes it takes work I believe we have to be conscious and mindful of how we treat our partners how we show up being willing to listen but I think it's so much easier to do those things with someone you have a connection with and you're truly in love with it's gonna always feel ten times harder when you're in the wrong relationship and I would argue the vast majority of people are in the wrong relationship that's why they're seeing it be so difficult and when you see this whole it's easy typically it's easy because you have two people who are not digging deeper they're they're trying to write out that chemistry we talked about earlier for as long as possible all right so yeah it seems like it's great it's easy no issues but it doesn't really work like that because they're just not facing the reality of the situation so I think we we have to understand that there is going to be some bumps in the road because of all the things that people have been through but once we're able to come together and we know this is our partner this is who we want to share our life with it can get so much better yeah and do you do you think that people have just been given generally the wrong education on how to deal with another person in their life 100 yeah because unfortunately a lot of individuals are giving advice from a bit or hurt place there and and they're trying to disguise it as I'm just looking out for you no you you have inhaled and you cannot properly guide them in a positive and loving Manner and I think that a lot of people you know I always say it's funny how we'll spend a lot of time getting educated for the for the sake of our careers and business but we don't do the same for relationships and yet relationships arguably are even more important than that career business and even if it's not a romantic relationship just relationships in general your ability to coexist with others connect with others is extremely important if you want that business to succeed you have to learn how to establish business relationships there's no way around it so we have to learn how to talk to people listen to people you know what I'm saying and just make make things work when we come together with other individuals so I definitely think that we're just lacking in a lot of education and again too many because there's so many voices on the internet now there's just so much bad advice being given and and the individuals giving it they may be giving like let's say 80 of the advice is accurate but it's that 20 that's completely off that can derail everything and that's the stuff that people are gravitating to and this is causing a lot of problems can you give us some example of some of the like not specific people or anything like that I just mean like could you give example of bad advice and what about it is bad or unhealthy for people to try and put into practice okay so one thing I heard recently was an individual told uh said some of the best advice you can give to men is to not fall in love you know basically just find a woman you want to be with and kind of keep it there the reason why I view that as horrible advice is because you sit down with any man who's lived enough life they will all be able to say there's been at least one time they fail deeply for a woman all right the problem isn't falling deep before a woman the problem is we don't know how to handle it once we get there the problem is because we're not accustomed to handling and processing our emotions a certain kind of way and being this vulnerable we don't understand what's going to be required of us in that moment we also kind of lose sight of because I'm a big believer in masculine and feminine energy and I believe that if she was attracted to you because of that masculine energy that you give off and now you become this emotional wreck because you don't know how to handle all these feelings you have for her well you start to become less attractive to her and it's not that it's not fixable it's fixable but again a lack of understanding and awareness derails the situation so rather than telling men don't fall in love because it's inevitable let's teach them how we walk in love how we make what I call Loving in your masculine how you maintain that energy and still be able to pour into that woman in a way that allows relationship to flourish yeah and how does that work when I think obviously a lot of people in that example that you're giving if if the person is attracted to someone because of their masculine energy but at the same time they want them to be empathetic and compassionate and kind which are generally seen as more feminine energy how does that person balance the two or is that is that not how you're explaining is that no it's about balance so we have to understand we all have masculine and feminine of course within us I'm a Believer in one must be your dominant energy the other is the one you tap into when necessary so as a man you can walk in your masculine and in those moments tap into those things but you can't just stay there all the time all right you can't just become this needy emotional God that's not going to work in the vast majority of cases and so what happens is there's this messaging that's being thrown out there that women don't like good guys I don't believe that's what it is I believe that women become less attracted when you don't know how to exude and walk in your masculine energy it's and and we're hiding behind the label of good guy you can be a good guy and still exude masculine energy and that's the thing and we also think that oh they like bad boys no if you look deeper it's really the masculine energy that that quote-unquote bad boy exudes but what they desire is a mixture of both the same way that we would want a mixture of both we would want a loving sweet woman family woman whatever or and if you're a guy who wants a mask and woman cool but you don't want her to be just that you know you want her to have the ability to tap into that other side when necessary I think we all desire that balance in our partner and I think it's healthy and if we just learn how to maintain it and how to nurture it we would see greater success in relationships yeah what are some of the skills with with mastering that energy that you think we're missing out on and balancing that energy and knowing when to be which and because the reason why it's hard is I think we live in a binary world right like you feel like you have to choose like you're either a bad boy or you're a good girl you are a doer or you're a thinker you're uh winner or you're a loser right like we think like that and some people go okay you need to be masculine or I can be feminine and I I definitely relate to what you were saying like I believe that there is a lot about me that is massively masculine in energy using that language and terminology my drive my ambition how I work my strategic mind and at the same time I consider myself to have a lot of great feminine energy and qualities where it comes to like empowering others and nurturing and the ability to hold deep compassionate space and be empathetic which are all powerful qualities for for everyone right Beyond gender they're powerful qualities and I appreciate and it's taken a long time to know when to be which and it's still and I still make mistakes right there's still sometimes like I should have been more assertive I should have been more affectionate so we live in a world that finds it hard to hold two opposing ideas at the same time yeah we don't know how to do that in any sphere of life let alone within ourselves so what are some of the skills that we can learn in order to nurture both those energies in a healthy way inside of ourselves so I think one it's going to require a lot of if you're already in a relationship it's going to boil down to a lot of transparency and communication you know her if you're that man trying to understand that woman and when you can walk in those two energies her being willing to be honest and open about you know what this was too much over here or I needed some of this over here and in time you're going to become more aware and understanding it's going to be like second nature to you you won't have to overthink it and I think part of it is not overthinking it it's kind of like being ourselves but understanding that we have to learn when this is doing too much and vice versa I also think that in reality for a lot of men especially uh when we're talking about relationships and kind of losing that masculine energy the the underlying issue is fear all right when we become so afraid of losing this woman we lose ourselves and so a lot of men now fall into this very feminine needy space because they're just afraid we have to learn that listen like to me I feel if your partner thinks you're never gonna walk away from them no matter what they do you've lost that's that's a horrible place to be in we have to get to a place where we both understand that as long as we show up the way that we need to show up for each other we have each other's back we will be here but neither of us will tolerate an unhealthy relationship and someone who blatantly does not want to work on making this better I would want my the woman I'm with to feel that way and I need to feel that way once we understand that and you have the confidence of I can walk away if I have to that shifts your energy right there in itself and now you don't find yourself falling into that place where again you start to look a lot more unattractive or for some men they become yes men in their relationships thinking that makes her happy that's turning her off she doesn't want you to be her yes man she wants you to stand up for yourself sometimes give your opinion give your perspective she wants to be able to you know if anything be able to have discussions with you about these things not just you say whatever you want whatever you want whatever you want over time it becomes a problem so I think that once we conquer that fear once we create a space where we can talk about these moments and not feel some kind of way I think sometimes men are not they struggle with taking the criticism from their partner men and women we we all do when we feel when we have actual feelings for someone you know we don't care about you it's not as big of a deal but we're emotionally invested we're more sensitive to it but we have to understand that these criticisms are for the sake of making things better and strengthening this relationship so once we can get to that place it's going to be so much easier to grow in it and then I think it's just a matter of understanding that it's this balance isn't just for your relationship so look at it like from a sports perspective if I'm on a basketball team there may be moments where I need to take the lead and recognize all right everyone else is down someone needs to step up this is my moment and then there's other moments where I realize okay let's say we already have a team captain let me show them that I can follow serve do what needs to be done so that the team can win it's just becoming aware of what the moment requires you know and again I think the more in tune we get the more in tune we get with ourselves and the more in tune we get with our partner the easier it becomes to find that balance that's the challenge right the challenge is just how much patience we have with ourselves and others to realize that you walked into an imbalance unbalanced situation and now it's like how much patience how much time are we going to give it to get to that because the challenge is I think we walk into a situation thinking it's perfect whereas we should be walking into a relationship knowing it's imperfect absolutely and we're going to learn and figure it out together and I think that's what sets us up for failure is because we walk into it going it's perfect and deep down we know it isn't but somehow we gloss over it whereas I find when I know we're gonna fight when I know we're gonna argue and I know there's going to be disagreements that sets me up to develop the skills I need in order to navigate those things yes but if I assume like oh we're never gonna fight and I always get that right we always meet someone who goes to I mean a friend who goes to me Jay we never fight I'm like how long have you been together because I don't I don't know anyone who never fights I get that no one has to get to like yeah the heights of fights yeah I did that I did that it doesn't have to be a heated fight but I don't know anyone who doesn't disagree there you go all right right I think that's important for people to understand yeah there's a difference yes you have some individuals out there that'll say arguing is normal it's healthy and to me it's like listen if we're talking about arguing where we're now Crossing disrespectful lines negative lines you know the way that we the tone we take with each other all these things that's not healthy yes it may happen you should be prepared for that but it does let's not normalize it just gonna keep doing this and it's it is what it is but you're right to to be with each other long enough and never have a disagreement that's extremely rare okay extremely rare and I do think that again as you mentioned we have to be ready for those moments we have to understand and going back to how we find that balance especially as men and even for women it's recognizing so for example if my partner is in a very heated moment let's say she's in her masculine right now all right she's getting rough well meeting her with more masculine is probably going to only make things worse yeah this is the time for me to be compassionate go to her hold her calm her down bring her peace in that moment you see because it we need to balance each other out same thing on the flip side if I'm all heated and I'm I'm extra passionate and then my woman now comes with that same energy that's it now where button has this is her moment to say no let me now be the one to soften the moment up bring that Sweetness in there and everybody calms down so it's learning how to feed off of each other and recognize okay they're over here let me bring it back over here and now we can work from that point and we're both good the problem is that we all see compassion and sweetness and kindness in those moments as a weakness we don't want to be that person because we see that as losing we see that as giving in we see that as us losing our power and strength in a relationship if we become the comforter or if we become the carer right like that's that's a perception that is the perception and we have to change that that is the power position so who is more powerful the person that lets the energy dictate them how they're going to react or the person that brings the energy and dictates how they're going to make this situation play out so if I'm coming in to calm it down and being all sweet because I'm trying to bring peace here I'm in the power position I'm not losing anything I'm gonna gain more peace and happiness and Harmony if I succeed in what I'm trying to do so we have to get out of that mindset of this makes us weaker and that is the big key of it that's a big problem that for a lot of women who struggle with their feminine energy that's a big issue where they feel that being feminine is weakness it's what got them taken advantage of and got them hurt but I always say it's not the feminine energy that's the problem it's who you give it to do they respect it did they honor it you know it's the same thing as a man does she respect your masculine if she doesn't then that might just be a sign you're with the wrong person but don't stop being that guy because the woman who's best for you is going to need that in those moments that that's exactly what it is is that when people have been their best selves for the wrong person that person brings out the worst in them yes right like when someone's been their best loving kindness self but someone took advantage of it that person now thinks next time I've got to be aggressive I've got to be you know powerful I've got to be strong in this way and I feel like that's kind of what most people are dealing with we know that is that you're just dealing with a wounded version of someone yes not a healed version of someone but I think people struggle to trust again and again especially when they see the same patterns in the person they're weird and I guess the question is why do we keep making the same mistakes because I feel like a lot of us keep dating the same people yeah and there's a part of us that also just keeps closing off or being more wounded it's almost like if you cut yourself you now walk around with your hand over that you don't want to get cut again and then if you lead it off and it gets cut even deeper now you're even more conscious of that and so I find that people are doing that where they're closing their heart more and more because it's been so misused and abused and I understand that I understand people don't want to be abused and misused but I guess the question is how do people find people that they know respect them so that they can be their best version or be a better version of themselves so you know you can't drive out Darkness with more Darkness you can't expose someone who's gonna hurt you by being someone who's closed off and holding back yourself we have it's kind of what we were just talking about we have to look at being vulnerable loving and open as not just well I'm setting myself to be hurt no it's how you expose people faster if I come with that energy and you cannot respect it match it then I know you don't belong here but if I hold back I give you a free pass to hold back so now we have two individuals who are hiding behind their walls because it's comfortable there but you can't really see what's what do we really have in front of us those walls are blinding you and you can't properly evaluate the situation so one we we got to get to a place of healing from our past so that we're not just walking around with the hand over the cut no you you gotta let the cup breathe you gotta let it heal all right holding on put your hand on there is delaying the process and like you said all that's gonna happen is when you finally take your hand off but you're taking it off with the wrong person and you haven't learned see what I want people to realize is your actions weren't the problem meaning you being loving sweet kind compassionate wasn't the problem it was the person separate those two things that you don't stop doing the good things now granted are there levels to this to where we have to learn again if I'm thinking about a man if you got so deeply emotional to where you kind of lost your your masculine energy and you became very needy okay you can say all right I need to continue to be loving but I know I have to learn how to draw a line I have to learn how not to cross that moment and again you only crossed it because you were unhealthy to begin with you only cross it because you were afraid to begin with once you get to that place where you're healthy and confident you won't find yourself Crossing that line anymore yeah you won't tolerate certain things anymore so we have to heal we have to be confident and we have to let our light shine so that we can expose what's in front of us easier that's a brilliant answer I I love the differentiation between how sharing your light is not the problem the person's the problem because we yeah we start to doubt whether being a good person a loving person is actually what wins in the world yeah and the truth is that it does win but it has to win with someone who can receive it and absolutely hold that space with you and share that space with you and I find that a lot of people keep giving that energy to the wrong person because we feel we can make them better right like there's this feeling of like I can change this person I can make them better I can heal them there's some of us want to fix people yeah and that means we assume the person we're with is broken and I think this is such a subconscious thing like if you're always critiquing if you're always picking at stuff with your partner chances are you don't think they're great like just now you think there's some issues with them when you think that you can fix them and they're broken tell us about that angle where now we're almost we've talked about being the loving and kind person but sometimes we're being the person that thinks we're loving and kind because we want to improve someone but that person doesn't want to improve one big problem is that what's really driving people to pick that individual is that by being the one that can upgrade you improve you I have more value here by having more value I have a false sense of security you have to appreciate me you're less likely to walk away you're less likely to cheat because you're lucky to have me I feel like I'm the prize here but those situations never really work because again you're choosing someone that is not capable of pouring into you the way you need you're basing this off of what you could do for them and that's not sustainable and you're choosing them because again you have more emotional control here what happens to so many people especially women it's something that I call the unhealthy love cycle of women where women in their first love experience outside of any childhood trauma may have experienced they're their most loving they're just out there they go all the way in but that typically happens at a younger age at an age where men are not mature enough to handle those kind of emotions that level of commitment so on and so forth so she gets hurt after she gets hurt her moment is saying to herself I will never let this happen to me again so now the woman starts to consciously or subconsciously choose men who are I don't want to say lower than hurt but essentially a man who does not take her there he's good enough to be with but I'm not that vulnerable with him he can't hurt me like that first love hurt me and so that Dynamic usually leads to picking that person I can fix I can make better who will appreciate and respect me but again it doesn't work out and many times you'll see these same situations the guy will move on to cheat on her not because and I have to say this because some women think yeah he's just being a man no not because he's a man but because you chose a man that you could never be the woman that he needed and he could never be the man that you needed once he kind of either gets what he needs from you to build himself up or the Smoke Clears from him being infatuated with you he starts to realize I'm not getting everything that I desire and now you building him up has brought him more attention from other women so now the the difference between what you're not giving him and what someone else is willing to give him becomes way clearer now the Temptation gets way stronger and he ends up doing something or she ends up cheating as well because he's safe but he doesn't fulfill her he doesn't satisfy her he he doesn't excite her in any kind of way and that's why I always said earlier like the safe choice is almost always the wrong choice but that is a function of people trying to choose these fix or uppers because they think it's going to give them some leverage there it's leverage that's it yeah it's leverage yeah how do you know when it's time to go like how do you know when it's like I feel like this is a common question where it's like how do you know when it's just I've tried everything we've tried together tried our best maybe we went to therapy maybe we got a coach or maybe you know maybe we didn't do those things how do I just know that I feel like I need to go but I'm scared of being alone yeah I'm I'm scared of dealing with the reality that I put in a lot of energy and I feel like you said this earlier but a lot of people stay in something for a lot longer than they should because they'd rather not be alone yes they'd rather not face reality they'd rather not lose two years of their life they'd rather lose two more thinking that this this should stay like how do you know when it's time to go let me first say this yes I think I think Society needs to change their thinking as far as Letting Go doesn't always mean it can't work out later it's just that it cannot work out under these circumstances all right because some people say well I feel like they're the one okay maybe they are but maybe the time is not right and it's letting go that will allow you both to do what needs to be done in your own personal lives that would allow you to come back together and have something way more amazing so that's number one thing to consider but outside of that it's when one if that person is unwilling to put in the work necessary it's time to go there's like so many times I'll I'll have a video go up about communication and someone will comment saying I've tried talking to him and he doesn't want to talk to me and in my head I'm like why are you still with them if he refuses to talk to you you've already tried there's nothing else to do but people will let it Linger on and continue why they can why they consistently complain or unhappy about this specific issue it's not gonna magically get better they're not gonna just change it just because all of a sudden they see oh it needs to change no if they're fighting it now they have no reason to change it and what people have to understand you know especially with this whole trying to fix people up healing and facing your traumas is one of the hardest things for people to do so if they already have you in their life they're essentially getting the incentive or the benefit of relationship without having to do the deeper work it's almost like if I'm at a job and the job says you need to have a master's degree to work here but we're going to hire you anyway and give you time to get that master's degree if getting that degree is super hard to you you're gonna drag that out as long as possible yeah you may never get the degree until they fire you when they fire you and you realize oh my gosh if I don't do this I'll never get this person back I'll never get this opportunity back now they might go and get it because it's very tough to walk down the path of the healing process so if they're not willing to work on it you guys have already discussed it and I think that's a big thing because there's a lot of relationships that end and the couples don't even know what the real issue was so the communication they'll say well we talked about no you guys argued you guys lashed out there wasn't a clear communication as to what the problem was what is expected how do we go about this if you've done that and I believe one of the most effective ways to do that is through a letter because I feel like verbal communication of deep issues and concerns they typically don't go well you know people get distracted they forget what they want to say the other person gets defensive they're not they're listening to rebuttal not to understand but when there's a letter involved it gives you time to get everything out you can you can evaluate your tone leave no stone unturned and now they have an opportunity to process it on their time to really take it in and then you guys can come together and discuss the letter and now it's so much easier to stay on point and get everything covered if we've done that and they're still unwilling or there's still no progress It's Time to Go yeah that's great that's great advice and I for me that's the biggest one it's like you can't make something last if only one person's working on it you can't keep hoping and waiting and wishing and and like you said that ending doesn't mean forever and often I found that two people need to grow individually to be able to grow collectively and we're forcing growing together so hard but we need space to grow and if you can't grow together chances are you need to grow apart in order to see whether you grow together again or grow for someone else and all of those options are okay but we put so much pressure on people to grow together that they grow apart yeah and actually if they chose to grow apart and grow separately they could come back together if they learn the lessons and I think that's a mistake too though sometimes people think I'm gonna go learn this lesson for this person I meet a lot of people they're like okay they broke up with me because I wasn't XYZ now I'm gonna go become XYZ to win them back yeah and I always find I'm just like well no you should go become XYZ if you think you were missing XYZ but not to win them back because you don't know what they're gonna do what's your take on people trying to win people back so I 100 agree with you like if we're trying to learn or grow it needs to be for the benefit of who we are and just whoever we deal with so was almost like if I was a bad Communicator in this relationship I shouldn't learn to better communicate for that person I need to better communicate for whoever I'm going to be with if you can't see it in that light then maybe you're looking at the wrong thing my thing is this I think it all depends on what the details of the situation was what led to the breakup what were you overlooking what was missing are these fixable issues because a lot of people are trying to win back someone where the issues are not resolved so it's like what's the point of going back we're just going to go in the same cycle all over again they're letting this idea of I miss them I don't want to be without them blind them from the fact that you two did not get along well or you two don't want the same things or YouTube just whatever it is maybe there's a lack of sexual satisfaction I don't know why I feel the need to mention that but it happens a lot of times you have to stay focused on what led to the end and can this be corrected if it can cool but as you mentioned listen correcting it does not guarantee you they're coming back and even if they will come back you don't know when they may need so you may have figured yourself out in six months they might need a year and I would argue if you guys are truly meant for each other and at the end of the year you need a year too you're just overlooking some things and you're rushing the process because you want to get back to them yeah it's I've never found a situation where it was truly only one person who had problems and the other person was squeaky clean no no you thought you were but you got some stuff too you needed to correct of course so I think we have to be honest with ourselves and just keep striving to be better and rather than focus on winning them back just become the best you because if you do and there's a true connection there the opportunity will present itself again and you too will be able to make something of it and the struggle is that when people finally make that decision to break up or let go the study showed that the parts of your brain that are activated in a breakup are the same as detoxing from cocaine right like you're literally trying to detox so you can have a craving yeah for someone that's bad for you yeah or also it says that the areas of the brain that are activated in a breakup are the areas that are the same with physical pain so if someone like punching the stomach the reason why we say like my heart feels broken is because it literally feels like something's broken yeah so when you're going through a breakup when you're feeling the craving to be with that person again studies show that eight over eighty percent of people are looking at what their exes are doing on social media right probably through a Finster account or whatever but you have to you have to know what are some of the healthiest tips that you've given to people and the people that you've worked with that have genuinely helped people move through a breaker the first thing is to ask yourself again why was I even there why am I holding on to this individual again I think sometimes we get so blinded by just the experience or our desire to have this person for whatever reason that we Overlook what was really missing or why this could not work anyway what you'll also find is and I'm sure there's probably a study on it where if you if they broke up with you you ever see a situation it happens on TV a lot where the person could be like okay I'm gonna break up with my partner they're planning on it they've been practicing in their head right it took them a couple weeks to muster up the strength they're about to do it and then the partner breaks up with them yeah now it's oh my gosh I gotta get them back yeah so it's like you just forgot this whole time that was your plan yeah it just gave you the past to do it but now because we don't like to be the one being let go of now we're fighting hard to get it back yeah so we have to really not fall into these little traps that happen to us as human beings our brains just playing tricks on us or something where we confuse these emotions for oh my gosh I must really love them or even like you said you go into that detox and because you miss I always tell people no matter how bad the relationship was there's always good moments so if you're trying to break free you can't just let your brain focus on the good moments you have to remind yourself why this doesn't work but if you keep focusing on the good you start to make yourself think oh because I missed this good moment I must miss them and there's this quote that says sometimes you're not missing the person you're missing the feeling so you've got to be able to differentiate those two things so getting back to how we get over these breakups is recognizing why were we really there to begin with you know could this actually work the next thing is you know I'm a huge believer that a lot of times a breakup is a blessing in disguise even if there is a chance that you two can work together or this is the one for you you may have needed this time to re-evaluate and get things in order something is obviously wrong even if you it may be something as deep as because I've seen situations where everything was going amazingly well on the surface and the person broke up with them let's say the woman lets go of the man so to the man that's really confusing but what it was is that that woman she had not healed from her past relationships and this relationship being so good was scaring her and what happens is the the better you are the scarier it becomes for her she's looking for something to be wrong she has to validate her fear somehow wow when she can't find it she'll either sabotage the relationship or she'll run from it So to that man it may seem like this is so unfair which yeah it sucks but if this woman didn't break up with you now you were inevitably gonna face this same ending but at a worse time yeah all right this is still best that is happening now at least if she can go do what she needs to do there's a chance for this to come back around later but it's hard for us to see it in the moment so I think just really we also have to focus on our healing whenever a breakup happens the mistake we make is that we think it's about healing from the breakup no it's healing from everything you've been through you've probably been sleeping under the rug your childhood trauma for years maybe the last two three relationships whatever it is so and and not healing from those things is contributing to your struggle to get past this breakup and contributing to why you even chose this person to begin with I'm a huge believer that if you haven't healed you are 90 likely to choose the wrong person yeah it's just too difficult to pick that person that you truly love and can truly love you and accept that level of vulnerability when you have still not resolved your past traumas and past hurts yeah so to me that's the next big thing is just focus on your healing process because in that process you will also be able to see more clearly if this is really for you or not like walking around unhealed is like walking around with broken glasses you you can't see straight no matter how hard you try but healing will clear up your vision really really fast and now it'd be like oh wait a minute I didn't belong there yeah you know thank God the broke breakup happened you know now I'm in a better place I move forward so to me I think and I would say in addition to those things is just have an accountability partner whether that's friend coach therapist someone that can help keep you in check help remind you what you need to do someone that you know you have to talk to and update what's going on so you feel like okay I don't want to come back so I'm saying I'm doing the same thing over and over again it doesn't guarantee success but it helps it helps move the needle some so I would highly encourage that that one mindset you spoke about that that changes everything and it hit me today I was just thinking if we were just able in a moment to recognize that something painful now was going to be good for us in five years time that would change so many things in our life yes but we're so poor at dealing with current pain yeah even if it means future joy that we just can't accept that I have to go through this like in everything right like knowing that someone breaking up with you just saved you 10 years of a wasted life is so much more than knowing you're gonna have to go through a few months of pain and 10 months of pain maybe it's a bit longer maybe it's two three years but we just have to get our head around that that sometimes the best things that happen to you are protecting more of your life than the pain that they're causing you need the Peace of knowing I did what I needed to do that's it yeah because anytime you feel like well maybe I could have done this but I could have done that leaves the door open for doubt do it well exactly so it's like and that's why I'm such a big believer in you know there's people who say well once they're done they're done they'll just move on and I'm like no no Express Yourself get everything off your chest because you don't need anything to linger and you questioning well what if I did this different no make sure speak your full piece and now you can say all right I did what I had to do it is what it is I move forward and I mean it makes it easier it may not make it a hundred percent you know not an issue whatsoever but it's gonna be easier and also also for me that's why like my relationship with God is so important because that's where I find my peace in dealing with a situation that doesn't work out the way I want to I always tell myself okay if this isn't working out God has something better for me you know if this is happening right now there's a purpose because I know if I followed his guidance throughout this process there's no need for me to question why is this the current outcome there's a reason for this and I've been through these things enough times to see as you mentioned the reward is going to come it may come next week it may come years from now it will come and I'll be able to see how it all connected yeah Stefan it's been incredible talking to you man this has been such a great back-to-back flowing conversation uh we end every on purpose episode with the final five which is like a rapid fire which means every question has to be answered with one word to one sentence maximum okay so here are your final five the first question is what's the best relationship advice you've ever received or heard or given it is to love fully lovefully and be yourself because as I said earlier that's how you will expose quicker who is for you and who isn't for you second question what is the worst relationship advice you've ever heard or received get under someone to get over someone [Laughter] uh question number three uh how would you defin	deeply for a woman all right the problem isn't falling deep before a woman the problem is we don't know how to handle it once we get there the problem is because we're not accustomed to handling and processing our emotions a certain kind of way and being this vulnerable we don't understand what's going to be required of us in that moment we also kind of lose sight of because I'm a big believer in masculine and feminine energy and I believe that if she was attracted to you because of that masculine energy that you give off and now you become this emotional wreck because you don't know how to handle all these feelings you have for her well you start to become less attractive to her and it's not that it's not fixable it's fixable but again a lack of understanding and awareness derails the situation so rather than telling men don't fall in love because it's inevitable let's teach them how we walk in love how we make what I call Loving in your masculine how you maintain that energy and still be able to pour into that woman in a way that allows relationship to flourish yeah and how does that work when I think obviously a lot of people in that example that you're giving if if the person is attracted to someone because of their masculine energy but at the same time they want them to be empathetic and compassionate and kind which	7	5	3	deeply for a woman all right the problem isn't falling deep before a woman the problem is we don't know how to handle it once we get there the problem is because we're not accustomed to handling and processing our emotions a certain kind of way and being this vulnerable we don't understand what's going to be required of us in that moment we also kind of lose sight of because I'm a big believer in masculine and feminine energy and I believe that if she was attracted to you because of that masculine energy that you give off and now you become this emotional wreck because you don't know how to handle all these feelings you have for her well you start to become less attractive to her and it's not that it's not fixable it's fixable but again a lack of understanding and awareness derails the situation so rather than telling men don't fall in love because it's inevitable let's teach them how we walk in love how we make what I call Loving in your masculine how you maintain that energy and still be able to pour into that woman in a way that allows relationship to flourish	yeah and how does that work when I think obviously a lot of people in that example that you're giving if if the person is attracted to someone because of their masculine energy but at the same time they want them to be empathetic and compassionate and kind which	2,4,6	1,3,2	2	4	6	1	3	2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPQBcb9wf8Q	4,056	mPQBcb9wf8Q	2023-03-27 00:00:00	you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you're wasting your time the best-selling author and host the number one Health and Wellness podcast on purpose with Jay Shetty what are the signs that someone deeply loves you because I feel like we live in this world where we're always wondering do they love me do they like me do they really like me are they really into me how do you know when you deeply love someone and when someone deeply loves you how do you even know so I'm gonna start with an answer that people probably won't expect to me the first key is do you truly love them because look at it like this to me a lot of people get caught up in infatuation um they have unhealthy attachments they have different motivations to why they decided this is the person that I want and that can make them feel like they're in love but to me true love flows both ways it's not a one-sided thing so when you can say I I'm not into them like that if we look deep into that situation I can almost guarantee what we'll find is infatuation attachment something else but when you can say no I feel it too I'm deeply in love with them I think that's your first key because without that nothing else matters because a lot of people are choosing Partners based off of what they love me so much so I assume it's safe here and this is a good choice to make but the safe choice is usually the wrong choice and a lot of these people select this individual thinking everything's going to be okay but because you're not really into them you can never be what they need and they were never truly what you needed which is why you never even got to that level with them so to choose them without first evaluating do you truly love them would not be wise yeah that's that's a great question and I think people struggle with that question too because I think we think of love as so many different things wrapped into one for example I could think I love someone because of how they treat me I could think I love someone because they have one quality that I really wish I had or I could love someone because I think that they're out of my league and they give me a bit of attention yeah and so what we think is love is so complex and so wide that we never stop to ask ourselves like what does love mean like what's the definition of love like how do I Define love so how do you define love and how do you encourage other people to create their definitions of Love well for me first off is always God is love and then when we take it from there love is about kindness compassion patience understanding a willingness to be selfless important to that individual but I think what's also important for people to understand is when we're trying to apply it to romantic relationships we have to understand that there's other ingredients that are necessary before we can move forward so you could love someone dearly but if they are not emotionally ready because maybe they haven't healed from their past maybe there's still some things that need to work out in their life then it wouldn't be time to move forward in a relationship with them and we have this bad habit of the minute we feel like there's love there we want to move forward exactly and as you mentioned we can get caught up sometimes in but we love them because of what they do for us but what are you prepared to do for them love is about giving all right so we have to ask ourselves okay do we know what their needs are are we willing to fulfill those needs because if not maybe this wasn't love maybe it just felt good in the moment maybe you got caught up in the hype and that's okay it happens to almost all of us if not all of us at some point in life but we have to just be real very clear with ourselves about what's really driving the intention right now but I think all those things I mentioned is what encompasses love of and that's like the foundation of it and then from there we have to look at some other things to see how we can move forward so many times like you you convince yourself something's love and what I find really interesting is that so many people fall in love too fast and no one wants to go for the slow patient understanding love which is what love requires you just said love is kind love is patient love is understanding those things take time I think those things take time to nurture and to to make sure that we're doing it correctly for each other so it's about learning each other's Love Languages and how we make it work in within that Dynamic I think also because so many people are not used to dealing with emotions at on that level being that vulnerable people mishandle it all right so it takes time for us to get to a place so we understand how to manage this and work through this however I think that I'm a huge believer in connection and I believe connection is like your spirit recognizing its match and it's very instant when you speak to couples who said they experience a connection they'll tell you first conversation first time meeting first date first week it was pretty fast so to me the the recognizing of something deeper being here can happen very quickly but how we now cultivate that and how we move forward is where we need to take our time and make sure we're not rushing and overlooking certain important issues that need to be discussed and addressed first to me it's the understanding of chemistry versus compatibility and the idea that there needs to be a spark there needs to be a connection that I feel with someone like you're saying on a deeper level but I find that I find that most people are not Adept and knowing whether the connection they feel with someone is deeper or physical yeah like I would say that it's easy to it you can often feel a spark with if you meet a lot of people you can feel a spot with a lot of people but that doesn't mean that they're the right person to build a relationship absolutely right yes so it's connection to me is a very rare occurrence right yes so I feel that people who've actually experienced it they can tell you maybe once in their life if you're lucky two times maybe all right but it's not this thing that happens with everybody whereas chemistry uh feeling of spark these things can happen with a lot of different people yeah so I do think there's there's this education that's needed to understand how we differentiate these things so that we don't confuse them because I see a lot of people take that chemistry and think oh this is it this is the one it's like but you had chemistry with the last five people why is this one the one and not them so I do think we have to be careful with that yeah I think so so we're on the same page there's three things there's connection on the deeper level there's chemistry which is like the spark on a more superficial level and then there's compatibility which is like what makes get lost and I can relate to that with my wife I definitely felt so I I'm one of those people who I kind of knew from the first few moments when I met my wife before she was my wife was like I was like yeah this is my person like I felt that way yeah for sure I felt that connection and there was chemistry there too but it had to be turned into compatibility in order to create a long lasting relationship we've been together for 10 years we're still learning building going through everything but that was a big part of it so that I can get behind is do you see it that way too or is there something different in so how do you see it believe it or not I used to make compatibility the least important but that was because I was looking at it the wrong way once I kind of looked at the definition again and compatibility is about two people coexisting in harmony yeah then I was like okay no you you have to have that I just I got caught up more so in like let's say a dating site says okay we're gonna decide who's compatible so I view compatible as like an on the paper it looks good it's supposed to match but you can have a lot of people who are supposed to be compatible and it doesn't work absolutely so I think that it's compatibility is that add-on once we have the connection and the chemistry now we have to create that Harmony which is the compatibility yes I agree with you and and it is interesting how that word compatibility is thrown around and you're so right that compatibility on paper doesn't mean compatibility in real life exactly and to me compatibility really has another word inside of it which is like adaptability and that deeper understanding of an individual where you know how much you're willing to adapt around certain parts of the relationship but we'll get to that I think a lot of people like you know and and that's where we got into this conversation around what is slow a lot of people are waiting to feel like is this person wasting my time are they the one and so they don't have a deeper connection maybe they had that spark of chemistry and now that's kind of subsided how do you know if someone's wasting your time how do you know if you're letting yourself be used or wasted in that way so to me again I think it always starts with self and you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you because just use an example let's say you're a woman and the only reason why you're holding on to this guy is because he's a nice guy you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you figure let me try to make it work you're wasting your time this is where you're setting yourself up for disaster every single time so if it's not born out of a true connection love a genuine desire you really like this individual of course there's always things we have to work through but is the foundation strong enough for us to say okay we can make something special here and I think once we are honest with ourselves that kind of helps answer the question because sometimes we get so caught up trying to animal lies the other individual that is like we get in our heads and now we're missing the mark on what's really important here and we can't always say for sure what's going on with them I will say that in general if this person isn't willing to talk about things they're wasting your time if they're not willing to address or correct things that have been talked about they're wasting your time if you guys aren't on the same page about what you want and where you want to go in life wasting time so there are some things I think we can just look at and say listen this is pointless here but a lot of times and I have to say this especially for women women's intuition is extremely powerful I'm a huge believer in it and I feel like women know very early this isn't it but they rationalize reasons to convince themselves to give this man a chance and this again is a waste of time because it just doesn't work I've seen people turn what should have been maybe a couple weeks of dating into years of being married to someone they were not happy with all because they did not listen to themselves from the beginning they knew what it was but they just could not accept it for what it was yeah and I love that point on intuition it's almost like when a relationship finally ends a lot of us think to ourselves I knew they weren't right yeah like I knew it I knew that they weren't the one but you just didn't listen to that part of yourself yes so so let's break it down for people let's help people out we started talking about three very important words connection which you defined chemistry which we've defined in compatibility which we've defined how do people know the difference between connection and chemistry when they meet someone because I find that the science shows that you're experiencing dopamine and cortisol at the same times you're experiencing the reward chemical and stress chemical at the same time which gives you that chemistry feeling which is the feeling of butterflies in your stomach or like do they like me are they into me what should I wear that kind of feeling but then you're talking about a deeper connection how do you hear the difference because I think a lot of us just get swept up in the feeling of I'm So Into that person they're so into me how do you know so I think one is are you even being yourself or can you be yourself with this individual if if you're presenting your representative then this is not a real connection this is them falling for that person that you're presenting but that's not real so to me you have you should be already being yourself but with that person you have a connection with it's a more natural flow we don't have to force it we just feel so much more comfortable around them I think in addition to that is when you when you find yourself all caught up in the moment and caught up in that chemistry again you have to ask yourself what am I really attaching myself to what about what do I really like about this individual what I find is that when it's really about chemistry we're still on the surface you don't really know about them yet you just know you guys had a good time maybe you had fun at this event you guys were able to talk about a lot of different things which is great which is gonna also be important if there is a connection however do you even know what college did they want do you know what kind of Life they want to live you know are you guys really on the same page I think connection is our paths align our purpose is align so for us to align we have to have a deeper understanding of where we're headed and can we head there together so so that's why I think though you may feel it or you may feel like you're feeling it you have to do your due diligence to dig deeper to find out okay is this just I got caught up on the surface or there is something real here yeah and I think once we ask enough questions because I think that's the other big problem we have this experience where we feel this chemistry we're so excited and now we're afraid to ask questions because we don't want to blow up the fantasy yes you know what I'm saying we're just like no no I want to keep believing this is great so let me not ask anything let me not run this person away let me not rock the boat but that's going to be what tells us if this is real or not yes I think you're I think you've hit on something there like we're so scared of losing someone that we're okay with not asking important questions and discovering important truths that actually define whether this relationship is going to last absolutely and that is ultimately going back to your point earlier that is ultimately you not being yourself right you're losing yourself scared that you're going to lose the other person so you're okay with not being yourself do you think it's ever okay this is a funny question I think but I have to ask you because I think it's a healthy discussion do you think it's ever okay to present different sides of yourself in order to attract someone or do you think that you're ultimately setting yourself up for failure in a relationship almost like I think a lot of people they may not become someone completely different but I think a lot of people are like oh I'm gonna show my smart side because it will attract this person or I'm gonna show my this side because they're like that are you saying any of that kind of molding is unhealthy or do you think there's room for that I think anything that is not sustainable is unhealthy so look at it as if I'm a man and I'm meeting this woman I want to impress her so I'm like okay I'm gonna try to spend all my money take a nice five-star restaurant all these things but deep inside I prefer a more simple lifestyle you know I don't like all that extra stuff okay that's horrible that's a sale for disaster that's unhealthy because you can't sustain what you're presenting to that individual that's gonna draw them in so whatever it is another like common example is you'll have women who love to communicate they want to be able to talk to you every single day but because they're afraid of coming off a certain kind of way they'll hold back on their communication so now they'll make it seem like they're okay with talking every now and then we don't always have to text and then this guy falls for that he falls for this low standard I won't call low standard but not having such a high expectation of him when it comes to communication then he finally gets with the woman her true self is going to come out at some point no one can suppress their true self forever it comes out and now it's like what is this I did not sign up for this now we're fighting now we're stressed because you want him to call you more he was used to you not being worried about it so much that's why it's going to always not work out so it's extremely unhealthy unless we're presenting a side of us that is truly us and we can sustain it you've hit on something again that that at the beginning of relationships we often display unrealistic standards and we set those yes and then when things shift and now you're back in reality again the other person's like but wait a minute I thought you were really into me and I even went through that with my wife when we first met I was able to spend pretty much every day with her because I didn't have a job and so I was looking for work I was applying I would go see her at her College every day and I would spend the day with her and I'd be in the library applying for jobs while she was studying yeah and I could see it every day and I think I saw every day potentially for like six months maybe every single day five days a week at least and then when I got a job that wasn't the case anymore because I was at work now and I'd set this unrealistic expectation that we could see each other all the time and even in the beginning I would see her all the time because I'd spend time with her family but we wouldn't spend time with my family because I hadn't told my family yet and so now that my family knew we were trying to split the time and all of a sudden it was like wait a minute we used to spend time at my house and so even in little things like that it took a bit of adapting because I'd set a false standard in our relationship and then thankfully my wife was adapting and she understood and she got it and it was fine but I think for so many people you set unrealistic expectations in who you are yes and that's hard to come back from absolutely yeah and that's why it's so important for us to know who we are so that we can present the real from the jump you know because again A lot of times people you know this idea that we're always changing yes I do think we're always evolving but some of the big shifts that you see are is not because that's just the way life is it's because you did take the time to figure yourself out first and then you got with this person and now you want them to adjust now thank God for you she was able to adjust but there's a lot of people that they can't handle that yeah and now everything falls apart from there so that's why yeah we have to be very careful with what we're presenting from the beginning yeah it's I I agree with you on that that we think people change but actually they just start to understand themselves exactly they went from being completely unconscious about who they were you met an unconscious version of a person yeah and now you think they're changing but they just became conscious of who they are absolutely and but the thing is Stefan as you know like Society doesn't encourage that time of getting to know yourself right when you're young you're not trained in how to think about who you want to be you're trained in thinking about what you want to I do it's about your job it's about your career you're not thinking about who you are as a human being or as a person so how do we in this Society where understanding who you are is not clear it's not encouraged where where does one start or where have you kind of found great insights in trying to discover who we are I would love to see more parents encouraging their children to explore how they're feeling about who they are like what I have found is a lot of people who let's say I I had one client where she wanted to be an actress when she was a little kid uh but parents kind of push in a different direction now she's like a social worker but her desire is still to be an actress like the things that they they wanted to do they they want to do as an adult now you can find back in their childhood in a lot of cases so I feel like too many people have stifled their children's growth in certain areas with limited ideas of well this can't make money or this wouldn't be a good look for the family or whatever the case may be it's like no let them walk in it and see for themselves if that's really where they belong outside of that for me I think the big thing is getting in tune spiritually I'm just a huge believer in that I feel like me finding myself was when I went into what I call my Wilderness period I kind of just shut everything off that I was doing because I used to be all over having fun partying all these different things things and then God kind of slapped me upside my head and I had to like really pull away from everything and go deeper from within and it felt like a process of breaking me down to build me right back up and that's when I start to see things clearer because what I realized is the world is filled with distractions and it's the distractions why we can't see ourselves for who we really are if we simply shut off the distractions long enough you will learn a lot so even if someone just took a year off don't worry you know limit the TV you're watching limit the music you're listening to limit all the internet stuff just really go deeper within yourself spend more time alone spend more time you know thinking and processing you will learn a lot because again a lot of it is it isn't a problem of we don't know ourselves we are not aware and we're not willing to accept and once we allow ourselves to do those two things become aware and then accept it we become free yeah I I mean I agree with you I think that I've always been a big proponent of solitude to understand who you are because as soon as you have another person you now have another person's opinions you have to filter yes as soon as you have another person in front of you you have another person's judgments to filter and so now you can't even say what you truly think about something because you're constantly thinking what does that person think about me and my beliefs and so understanding your beliefs in solitude allows you to be really clear about what your values and beliefs are and and that's what it's there for I think when people get into if we switch to compatibility again the idea we talked about the difference between connection and chemistry but compatibility is really interesting because a lot of people believe that relationships should be hard and they require hard work and a lot of people believe relationships should be easy and everything should just flow where have you kind of discovered your lens on that Spectrum so okay there's a there's a couple ways to look at it I think that most relationships and I'll even be more specific most relations that involve connection and true love are typically hard not because relationships have to be hard but because most people have been hurt by something in their life are holding on to past traumas haven't resolved it once they meet this individual that they feel so strongly about it is scary this is where things get difficult it's the difficultness in how do I handle this how do I manage this you'll have people feel like they're losing themselves but they're not losing themselves their true self is coming out and it's it's the self that's been hiding behind that wall they've been using for quote-unquote protection but I always say the same module to protect you the same as blocking your blessings so now they're being pulled from behind it it's it's makes them feel some kind of way and again people start to mishandle things you also have situations where people are getting bad advice like I'm gonna give one example um there's this uh book called The Game by Neil Strauss I don't know if you ever read that book yeah it was great Neil you know you you answer that world to pick up artistry we learned it and he was great with the women but then once he found that woman that he fell in love with all that stuff doesn't work anymore so you have a lot of men being taught how to handle women in general but they don't understand that's not how you handle the woman you truly love and so now again you have individuals who though they are truly in love with this person they constantly mishandle it with bad Guidance with fear and all these things this is what makes it hard and and I even think that a lot of times the people who are supposed to be together sometimes will have the hardest time getting together but I believe that once we're able to conquer that part of it and actually come together it's not hard yes it takes work I believe we have to be conscious and mindful of how we treat our partners how we show up being willing to listen but I think it's so much easier to do those things with someone you have a connection with and you're truly in love with it's gonna always feel ten times harder when you're in the wrong relationship and I would argue the vast majority of people are in the wrong relationship that's why they're seeing it be so difficult and when you see this whole it's easy typically it's easy because you have two people who are not digging deeper they're they're trying to write out that chemistry we talked about earlier for as long as possible all right so yeah it seems like it's great it's easy no issues but it doesn't really work like that because they're just not facing the reality of the situation so I think we we have to understand that there is going to be some bumps in the road because of all the things that people have been through but once we're able to come together and we know this is our partner this is who we want to share our life with it can get so much better yeah and do you do you think that people have just been given generally the wrong education on how to deal with another person in their life 100 yeah because unfortunately a lot of individuals are giving advice from a bit or hurt place there and and they're trying to disguise it as I'm just looking out for you no you you have inhaled and you cannot properly guide them in a positive and loving Manner and I think that a lot of people you know I always say it's funny how we'll spend a lot of time getting educated for the for the sake of our careers and business but we don't do the same for relationships and yet relationships arguably are even more important than that career business and even if it's not a romantic relationship just relationships in general your ability to coexist with others connect with others is extremely important if you want that business to succeed you have to learn how to establish business relationships there's no way around it so we have to learn how to talk to people listen to people you know what I'm saying and just make make things work when we come together with other individuals so I definitely think that we're just lacking in a lot of education and again too many because there's so many voices on the internet now there's just so much bad advice being given and and the individuals giving it they may be giving like let's say 80 of the advice is accurate but it's that 20 that's completely off that can derail everything and that's the stuff that people are gravitating to and this is causing a lot of problems can you give us some example of some of the like not specific people or anything like that I just mean like could you give example of bad advice and what about it is bad or unhealthy for people to try and put into practice okay so one thing I heard recently was an individual told uh said some of the best advice you can give to men is to not fall in love you know basically just find a woman you want to be with and kind of keep it there the reason why I view that as horrible advice is because you sit down with any man who's lived enough life they will all be able to say there's been at least one time they fail deeply for a woman all right the problem isn't falling deep before a woman the problem is we don't know how to handle it once we get there the problem is because we're not accustomed to handling and processing our emotions a certain kind of way and being this vulnerable we don't understand what's going to be required of us in that moment we also kind of lose sight of because I'm a big believer in masculine and feminine energy and I believe that if she was attracted to you because of that masculine energy that you give off and now you become this emotional wreck because you don't know how to handle all these feelings you have for her well you start to become less attractive to her and it's not that it's not fixable it's fixable but again a lack of understanding and awareness derails the situation so rather than telling men don't fall in love because it's inevitable let's teach them how we walk in love how we make what I call Loving in your masculine how you maintain that energy and still be able to pour into that woman in a way that allows relationship to flourish yeah and how does that work when I think obviously a lot of people in that example that you're giving if if the person is attracted to someone because of their masculine energy but at the same time they want them to be empathetic and compassionate and kind which are generally seen as more feminine energy how does that person balance the two or is that is that not how you're explaining is that no it's about balance so we have to understand we all have masculine and feminine of course within us I'm a Believer in one must be your dominant energy the other is the one you tap into when necessary so as a man you can walk in your masculine and in those moments tap into those things but you can't just stay there all the time all right you can't just become this needy emotional God that's not going to work in the vast majority of cases and so what happens is there's this messaging that's being thrown out there that women don't like good guys I don't believe that's what it is I believe that women become less attracted when you don't know how to exude and walk in your masculine energy it's and and we're hiding behind the label of good guy you can be a good guy and still exude masculine energy and that's the thing and we also think that oh they like bad boys no if you look deeper it's really the masculine energy that that quote-unquote bad boy exudes but what they desire is a mixture of both the same way that we would want a mixture of both we would want a loving sweet woman family woman whatever or and if you're a guy who wants a mask and woman cool but you don't want her to be just that you know you want her to have the ability to tap into that other side when necessary I think we all desire that balance in our partner and I think it's healthy and if we just learn how to maintain it and how to nurture it we would see greater success in relationships yeah what are some of the skills with with mastering that energy that you think we're missing out on and balancing that energy and knowing when to be which and because the reason why it's hard is I think we live in a binary world right like you feel like you have to choose like you're either a bad boy or you're a good girl you are a doer or you're a thinker you're uh winner or you're a loser right like we think like that and some people go okay you need to be masculine or I can be feminine and I I definitely relate to what you were saying like I believe that there is a lot about me that is massively masculine in energy using that language and terminology my drive my ambition how I work my strategic mind and at the same time I consider myself to have a lot of great feminine energy and qualities where it comes to like empowering others and nurturing and the ability to hold deep compassionate space and be empathetic which are all powerful qualities for for everyone right Beyond gender they're powerful qualities and I appreciate and it's taken a long time to know when to be which and it's still and I still make mistakes right there's still sometimes like I should have been more assertive I should have been more affectionate so we live in a world that finds it hard to hold two opposing ideas at the same time yeah we don't know how to do that in any sphere of life let alone within ourselves so what are some of the skills that we can learn in order to nurture both those energies in a healthy way inside of ourselves so I think one it's going to require a lot of if you're already in a relationship it's going to boil down to a lot of transparency and communication you know her if you're that man trying to understand that woman and when you can walk in those two energies her being willing to be honest and open about you know what this was too much over here or I needed some of this over here and in time you're going to become more aware and understanding it's going to be like second nature to you you won't have to overthink it and I think part of it is not overthinking it it's kind of like being ourselves but understanding that we have to learn when this is doing too much and vice versa I also think that in reality for a lot of men especially uh when we're talking about relationships and kind of losing that masculine energy the the underlying issue is fear all right when we become so afraid of losing this woman we lose ourselves and so a lot of men now fall into this very feminine needy space because they're just afraid we have to learn that listen like to me I feel if your partner thinks you're never gonna walk away from them no matter what they do you've lost that's that's a horrible place to be in we have to get to a place where we both understand that as long as we show up the way that we need to show up for each other we have each other's back we will be here but neither of us will tolerate an unhealthy relationship and someone who blatantly does not want to work on making this better I would want my the woman I'm with to feel that way and I need to feel that way once we understand that and you have the confidence of I can walk away if I have to that shifts your energy right there in itself and now you don't find yourself falling into that place where again you start to look a lot more unattractive or for some men they become yes men in their relationships thinking that makes her happy that's turning her off she doesn't want you to be her yes man she wants you to stand up for yourself sometimes give your opinion give your perspective she wants to be able to you know if anything be able to have discussions with you about these things not just you say whatever you want whatever you want whatever you want over time it becomes a problem so I think that once we conquer that fear once we create a space where we can talk about these moments and not feel some kind of way I think sometimes men are not they struggle with taking the criticism from their partner men and women we we all do when we feel when we have actual feelings for someone you know we don't care about you it's not as big of a deal but we're emotionally invested we're more sensitive to it but we have to understand that these criticisms are for the sake of making things better and strengthening this relationship so once we can get to that place it's going to be so much easier to grow in it and then I think it's just a matter of understanding that it's this balance isn't just for your relationship so look at it like from a sports perspective if I'm on a basketball team there may be moments where I need to take the lead and recognize all right everyone else is down someone needs to step up this is my moment and then there's other moments where I realize okay let's say we already have a team captain let me show them that I can follow serve do what needs to be done so that the team can win it's just becoming aware of what the moment requires you know and again I think the more in tune we get the more in tune we get with ourselves and the more in tune we get with our partner the easier it becomes to find that balance that's the challenge right the challenge is just how much patience we have with ourselves and others to realize that you walked into an imbalance unbalanced situation and now it's like how much patience how much time are we going to give it to get to that because the challenge is I think we walk into a situation thinking it's perfect whereas we should be walking into a relationship knowing it's imperfect absolutely and we're going to learn and figure it out together and I think that's what sets us up for failure is because we walk into it going it's perfect and deep down we know it isn't but somehow we gloss over it whereas I find when I know we're gonna fight when I know we're gonna argue and I know there's going to be disagreements that sets me up to develop the skills I need in order to navigate those things yes but if I assume like oh we're never gonna fight and I always get that right we always meet someone who goes to I mean a friend who goes to me Jay we never fight I'm like how long have you been together because I don't I don't know anyone who never fights I get that no one has to get to like yeah the heights of fights yeah I did that I did that it doesn't have to be a heated fight but I don't know anyone who doesn't disagree there you go all right right I think that's important for people to understand yeah there's a difference yes you have some individuals out there that'll say arguing is normal it's healthy and to me it's like listen if we're talking about arguing where we're now Crossing disrespectful lines negative lines you know the way that we the tone we take with each other all these things that's not healthy yes it may happen you should be prepared for that but it does let's not normalize it just gonna keep doing this and it's it is what it is but you're right to to be with each other long enough and never have a disagreement that's extremely rare okay extremely rare and I do think that again as you mentioned we have to be ready for those moments we have to understand and going back to how we find that balance especially as men and even for women it's recognizing so for example if my partner is in a very heated moment let's say she's in her masculine right now all right she's getting rough well meeting her with more masculine is probably going to only make things worse yeah this is the time for me to be compassionate go to her hold her calm her down bring her peace in that moment you see because it we need to balance each other out same thing on the flip side if I'm all heated and I'm I'm extra passionate and then my woman now comes with that same energy that's it now where button has this is her moment to say no let me now be the one to soften the moment up bring that Sweetness in there and everybody calms down so it's learning how to feed off of each other and recognize okay they're over here let me bring it back over here and now we can work from that point and we're both good the problem is that we all see compassion and sweetness and kindness in those moments as a weakness we don't want to be that person because we see that as losing we see that as giving in we see that as us losing our power and strength in a relationship if we become the comforter or if we become the carer right like that's that's a perception that is the perception and we have to change that that is the power position so who is more powerful the person that lets the energy dictate them how they're going to react or the person that brings the energy and dictates how they're going to make this situation play out so if I'm coming in to calm it down and being all sweet because I'm trying to bring peace here I'm in the power position I'm not losing anything I'm gonna gain more peace and happiness and Harmony if I succeed in what I'm trying to do so we have to get out of that mindset of this makes us weaker and that is the big key of it that's a big problem that for a lot of women who struggle with their feminine energy that's a big issue where they feel that being feminine is weakness it's what got them taken advantage of and got them hurt but I always say it's not the feminine energy that's the problem it's who you give it to do they respect it did they honor it you know it's the same thing as a man does she respect your masculine if she doesn't then that might just be a sign you're with the wrong person but don't stop being that guy because the woman who's best for you is going to need that in those moments that that's exactly what it is is that when people have been their best selves for the wrong person that person brings out the worst in them yes right like when someone's been their best loving kindness self but someone took advantage of it that person now thinks next time I've got to be aggressive I've got to be you know powerful I've got to be strong in this way and I feel like that's kind of what most people are dealing with we know that is that you're just dealing with a wounded version of someone yes not a healed version of someone but I think people struggle to trust again and again especially when they see the same patterns in the person they're weird and I guess the question is why do we keep making the same mistakes because I feel like a lot of us keep dating the same people yeah and there's a part of us that also just keeps closing off or being more wounded it's almost like if you cut yourself you now walk around with your hand over that you don't want to get cut again and then if you lead it off and it gets cut even deeper now you're even more conscious of that and so I find that people are doing that where they're closing their heart more and more because it's been so misused and abused and I understand that I understand people don't want to be abused and misused but I guess the question is how do people find people that they know respect them so that they can be their best version or be a better version of themselves so you know you can't drive out Darkness with more Darkness you can't expose someone who's gonna hurt you by being someone who's closed off and holding back yourself we have it's kind of what we were just talking about we have to look at being vulnerable loving and open as not just well I'm setting myself to be hurt no it's how you expose people faster if I come with that energy and you cannot respect it match it then I know you don't belong here but if I hold back I give you a free pass to hold back so now we have two individuals who are hiding behind their walls because it's comfortable there but you can't really see what's what do we really have in front of us those walls are blinding you and you can't properly evaluate the situation so one we we got to get to a place of healing from our past so that we're not just walking around with the hand over the cut no you you gotta let the cup breathe you gotta let it heal all right holding on put your hand on there is delaying the process and like you said all that's gonna happen is when you finally take your hand off but you're taking it off with the wrong person and you haven't learned see what I want people to realize is your actions weren't the problem meaning you being loving sweet kind compassionate wasn't the problem it was the person separate those two things that you don't stop doing the good things now granted are there levels to this to where we have to learn again if I'm thinking about a man if you got so deeply emotional to where you kind of lost your your masculine energy and you became very needy okay you can say all right I need to continue to be loving but I know I have to learn how to draw a line I have to learn how not to cross that moment and again you only crossed it because you were unhealthy to begin with you only cross it because you were afraid to begin with once you get to that place where you're healthy and confident you won't find yourself Crossing that line anymore yeah you won't tolerate certain things anymore so we have to heal we have to be confident and we have to let our light shine so that we can expose what's in front of us easier that's a brilliant answer I I love the differentiation between how sharing your light is not the problem the person's the problem because we yeah we start to doubt whether being a good person a loving person is actually what wins in the world yeah and the truth is that it does win but it has to win with someone who can receive it and absolutely hold that space with you and share that space with you and I find that a lot of people keep giving that energy to the wrong person because we feel we can make them better right like there's this feeling of like I can change this person I can make them better I can heal them there's some of us want to fix people yeah and that means we assume the person we're with is broken and I think this is such a subconscious thing like if you're always critiquing if you're always picking at stuff with your partner chances are you don't think they're great like just now you think there's some issues with them when you think that you can fix them and they're broken tell us about that angle where now we're almost we've talked about being the loving and kind person but sometimes we're being the person that thinks we're loving and kind because we want to improve someone but that person doesn't want to improve one big problem is that what's really driving people to pick that individual is that by being the one that can upgrade you improve you I have more value here by having more value I have a false sense of security you have to appreciate me you're less likely to walk away you're less likely to cheat because you're lucky to have me I feel like I'm the prize here but those situations never really work because again you're choosing someone that is not capable of pouring into you the way you need you're basing this off of what you could do for them and that's not sustainable and you're choosing them because again you have more emotional control here what happens to so many people especially women it's something that I call the unhealthy love cycle of women where women in their first love experience outside of any childhood trauma may have experienced they're their most loving they're just out there they go all the way in but that typically happens at a younger age at an age where men are not mature enough to handle those kind of emotions that level of commitment so on and so forth so she gets hurt after she gets hurt her moment is saying to herself I will never let this happen to me again so now the woman starts to consciously or subconsciously choose men who are I don't want to say lower than hurt but essentially a man who does not take her there he's good enough to be with but I'm not that vulnerable with him he can't hurt me like that first love hurt me and so that Dynamic usually leads to picking that person I can fix I can make better who will appreciate and respect me but again it doesn't work out and many times you'll see these same situations the guy will move on to cheat on her not because and I have to say this because some women think yeah he's just being a man no not because he's a man but because you chose a man that you could never be the woman that he needed and he could never be the man that you needed once he kind of either gets what he needs from you to build himself up or the Smoke Clears from him being infatuated with you he starts to realize I'm not getting everything that I desire and now you building him up has brought him more attention from other women so now the the difference between what you're not giving him and what someone else is willing to give him becomes way clearer now the Temptation gets way stronger and he ends up doing something or she ends up cheating as well because he's safe but he doesn't fulfill her he doesn't satisfy her he he doesn't excite her in any kind of way and that's why I always said earlier like the safe choice is almost always the wrong choice but that is a function of people trying to choose these fix or uppers because they think it's going to give them some leverage there it's leverage that's it yeah it's leverage yeah how do you know when it's time to go like how do you know when it's like I feel like this is a common question where it's like how do you know when it's just I've tried everything we've tried together tried our best maybe we went to therapy maybe we got a coach or maybe you know maybe we didn't do those things how do I just know that I feel like I need to go but I'm scared of being alone yeah I'm I'm scared of dealing with the reality that I put in a lot of energy and I feel like you said this earlier but a lot of people stay in something for a lot longer than they should because they'd rather not be alone yes they'd rather not face reality they'd rather not lose two years of their life they'd rather lose two more thinking that this this should stay like how do you know when it's time to go let me first say this yes I think I think Society needs to change their thinking as far as Letting Go doesn't always mean it can't work out later it's just that it cannot work out under these circumstances all right because some people say well I feel like they're the one okay maybe they are but maybe the time is not right and it's letting go that will allow you both to do what needs to be done in your own personal lives that would allow you to come back together and have something way more amazing so that's number one thing to consider but outside of that it's when one if that person is unwilling to put in the work necessary it's time to go there's like so many times I'll I'll have a video go up about communication and someone will comment saying I've tried talking to him and he doesn't want to talk to me and in my head I'm like why are you still with them if he refuses to talk to you you've already tried there's nothing else to do but people will let it Linger on and continue why they can why they consistently complain or unhappy about this specific issue it's not gonna magically get better they're not gonna just change it just because all of a sudden they see oh it needs to change no if they're fighting it now they have no reason to change it and what people have to understand you know especially with this whole trying to fix people up healing and facing your traumas is one of the hardest things for people to do so if they already have you in their life they're essentially getting the incentive or the benefit of relationship without having to do the deeper work it's almost like if I'm at a job and the job says you need to have a master's degree to work here but we're going to hire you anyway and give you time to get that master's degree if getting that degree is super hard to you you're gonna drag that out as long as possible yeah you may never get the degree until they fire you when they fire you and you realize oh my gosh if I don't do this I'll never get this person back I'll never get this opportunity back now they might go and get it because it's very tough to walk down the path of the healing process so if they're not willing to work on it you guys have already discussed it and I think that's a big thing because there's a lot of relationships that end and the couples don't even know what the real issue was so the communication they'll say well we talked about no you guys argued you guys lashed out there wasn't a clear communication as to what the problem was what is expected how do we go about this if you've done that and I believe one of the most effective ways to do that is through a letter because I feel like verbal communication of deep issues and concerns they typically don't go well you know people get distracted they forget what they want to say the other person gets defensive they're not they're listening to rebuttal not to understand but when there's a letter involved it gives you time to get everything out you can you can evaluate your tone leave no stone unturned and now they have an opportunity to process it on their time to really take it in and then you guys can come together and discuss the letter and now it's so much easier to stay on point and get everything covered if we've done that and they're still unwilling or there's still no progress It's Time to Go yeah that's great that's great advice and I for me that's the biggest one it's like you can't make something last if only one person's working on it you can't keep hoping and waiting and wishing and and like you said that ending doesn't mean forever and often I found that two people need to grow individually to be able to grow collectively and we're forcing growing together so hard but we need space to grow and if you can't grow together chances are you need to grow apart in order to see whether you grow together again or grow for someone else and all of those options are okay but we put so much pressure on people to grow together that they grow apart yeah and actually if they chose to grow apart and grow separately they could come back together if they learn the lessons and I think that's a mistake too though sometimes people think I'm gonna go learn this lesson for this person I meet a lot of people they're like okay they broke up with me because I wasn't XYZ now I'm gonna go become XYZ to win them back yeah and I always find I'm just like well no you should go become XYZ if you think you were missing XYZ but not to win them back because you don't know what they're gonna do what's your take on people trying to win people back so I 100 agree with you like if we're trying to learn or grow it needs to be for the benefit of who we are and just whoever we deal with so was almost like if I was a bad Communicator in this relationship I shouldn't learn to better communicate for that person I need to better communicate for whoever I'm going to be with if you can't see it in that light then maybe you're looking at the wrong thing my thing is this I think it all depends on what the details of the situation was what led to the breakup what were you overlooking what was missing are these fixable issues because a lot of people are trying to win back someone where the issues are not resolved so it's like what's the point of going back we're just going to go in the same cycle all over again they're letting this idea of I miss them I don't want to be without them blind them from the fact that you two did not get along well or you two don't want the same things or YouTube just whatever it is maybe there's a lack of sexual satisfaction I don't know why I feel the need to mention that but it happens a lot of times you have to stay focused on what led to the end and can this be corrected if it can cool but as you mentioned listen correcting it does not guarantee you they're coming back and even if they will come back you don't know when they may need so you may have figured yourself out in six months they might need a year and I would argue if you guys are truly meant for each other and at the end of the year you need a year too you're just overlooking some things and you're rushing the process because you want to get back to them yeah it's I've never found a situation where it was truly only one person who had problems and the other person was squeaky clean no no you thought you were but you got some stuff too you needed to correct of course so I think we have to be honest with ourselves and just keep striving to be better and rather than focus on winning them back just become the best you because if you do and there's a true connection there the opportunity will present itself again and you too will be able to make something of it and the struggle is that when people finally make that decision to break up or let go the study showed that the parts of your brain that are activated in a breakup are the same as detoxing from cocaine right like you're literally trying to detox so you can have a craving yeah for someone that's bad for you yeah or also it says that the areas of the brain that are activated in a breakup are the areas that are the same with physical pain so if someone like punching the stomach the reason why we say like my heart feels broken is because it literally feels like something's broken yeah so when you're going through a breakup when you're feeling the craving to be with that person again studies show that eight over eighty percent of people are looking at what their exes are doing on social media right probably through a Finster account or whatever but you have to you have to know what are some of the healthiest tips that you've given to people and the people that you've worked with that have genuinely helped people move through a breaker the first thing is to ask yourself again why was I even there why am I holding on to this individual again I think sometimes we get so blinded by just the experience or our desire to have this person for whatever reason that we Overlook what was really missing or why this could not work anyway what you'll also find is and I'm sure there's probably a study on it where if you if they broke up with you you ever see a situation it happens on TV a lot where the person could be like okay I'm gonna break up with my partner they're planning on it they've been practicing in their head right it took them a couple weeks to muster up the strength they're about to do it and then the partner breaks up with them yeah now it's oh my gosh I gotta get them back yeah so it's like you just forgot this whole time that was your plan yeah it just gave you the past to do it but now because we don't like to be the one being let go of now we're fighting hard to get it back yeah so we have to really not fall into these little traps that happen to us as human beings our brains just playing tricks on us or something where we confuse these emotions for oh my gosh I must really love them or even like you said you go into that detox and because you miss I always tell people no matter how bad the relationship was there's always good moments so if you're trying to break free you can't just let your brain focus on the good moments you have to remind yourself why this doesn't work but if you keep focusing on the good you start to make yourself think oh because I missed this good moment I must miss them and there's this quote that says sometimes you're not missing the person you're missing the feeling so you've got to be able to differentiate those two things so getting back to how we get over these breakups is recognizing why were we really there to begin with you know could this actually work the next thing is you know I'm a huge believer that a lot of times a breakup is a blessing in disguise even if there is a chance that you two can work together or this is the one for you you may have needed this time to re-evaluate and get things in order something is obviously wrong even if you it may be something as deep as because I've seen situations where everything was going amazingly well on the surface and the person broke up with them let's say the woman lets go of the man so to the man that's really confusing but what it was is that that woman she had not healed from her past relationships and this relationship being so good was scaring her and what happens is the the better you are the scarier it becomes for her she's looking for something to be wrong she has to validate her fear somehow wow when she can't find it she'll either sabotage the relationship or she'll run from it So to that man it may seem like this is so unfair which yeah it sucks but if this woman didn't break up with you now you were inevitably gonna face this same ending but at a worse time yeah all right this is still best that is happening now at least if she can go do what she needs to do there's a chance for this to come back around later but it's hard for us to see it in the moment so I think just really we also have to focus on our healing whenever a breakup happens the mistake we make is that we think it's about healing from the breakup no it's healing from everything you've been through you've probably been sleeping under the rug your childhood trauma for years maybe the last two three relationships whatever it is so and and not healing from those things is contributing to your struggle to get past this breakup and contributing to why you even chose this person to begin with I'm a huge believer that if you haven't healed you are 90 likely to choose the wrong person yeah it's just too difficult to pick that person that you truly love and can truly love you and accept that level of vulnerability when you have still not resolved your past traumas and past hurts yeah so to me that's the next big thing is just focus on your healing process because in that process you will also be able to see more clearly if this is really for you or not like walking around unhealed is like walking around with broken glasses you you can't see straight no matter how hard you try but healing will clear up your vision really really fast and now it'd be like oh wait a minute I didn't belong there yeah you know thank God the broke breakup happened you know now I'm in a better place I move forward so to me I think and I would say in addition to those things is just have an accountability partner whether that's friend coach therapist someone that can help keep you in check help remind you what you need to do someone that you know you have to talk to and update what's going on so you feel like okay I don't want to come back so I'm saying I'm doing the same thing over and over again it doesn't guarantee success but it helps it helps move the needle some so I would highly encourage that that one mindset you spoke about that that changes everything and it hit me today I was just thinking if we were just able in a moment to recognize that something painful now was going to be good for us in five years time that would change so many things in our life yes but we're so poor at dealing with current pain yeah even if it means future joy that we just can't accept that I have to go through this like in everything right like knowing that someone breaking up with you just saved you 10 years of a wasted life is so much more than knowing you're gonna have to go through a few months of pain and 10 months of pain maybe it's a bit longer maybe it's two three years but we just have to get our head around that that sometimes the best things that happen to you are protecting more of your life than the pain that they're causing you need the Peace of knowing I did what I needed to do that's it yeah because anytime you feel like well maybe I could have done this but I could have done that leaves the door open for doubt do it well exactly so it's like and that's why I'm such a big believer in you know there's people who say well once they're done they're done they'll just move on and I'm like no no Express Yourself get everything off your chest because you don't need anything to linger and you questioning well what if I did this different no make sure speak your full piece and now you can say all right I did what I had to do it is what it is I move forward and I mean it makes it easier it may not make it a hundred percent you know not an issue whatsoever but it's gonna be easier and also also for me that's why like my relationship with God is so important because that's where I find my peace in dealing with a situation that doesn't work out the way I want to I always tell myself okay if this isn't working out God has something better for me you know if this is happening right now there's a purpose because I know if I followed his guidance throughout this process there's no need for me to question why is this the current outcome there's a reason for this and I've been through these things enough times to see as you mentioned the reward is going to come it may come next week it may come years from now it will come and I'll be able to see how it all connected yeah Stefan it's been incredible talking to you man this has been such a great back-to-back flowing conversation uh we end every on purpose episode with the final five which is like a rapid fire which means every question has to be answered with one word to one sentence maximum okay so here are your final five the first question is what's the best relationship advice you've ever received or heard or given it is to love fully lovefully and be yourself because as I said earlier that's how you will expose quicker who is for you and who isn't for you second question what is the worst relationship advice you've ever heard or received get under someone to get over someone [Laughter] uh question number three uh how would you defin	and woman cool but you don't want her to be just that you know you want her to have the ability to tap into that other side when necessary I think we all desire that balance in our partner and I think it's healthy and if we just learn how to maintain it and how to nurture it we would see greater success in relationships yeah what are some of the skills with with mastering that energy that you think we're missing out on and balancing that energy and knowing when to be which and because the reason why it's hard is I think we live in a binary world right like you feel like you have to choose like you're either a bad boy or you're a good girl you are a doer or you're a thinker you're uh winner or you're a loser right like we think like that and some people go okay you need to be masculine or I can be feminine and I I definitely relate to what you were saying like I believe that there is a lot about me that is massively masculine in energy using that language and terminology my drive my ambition how I work my strategic mind and at the same time I consider myself to have a lot of great feminine energy and qualities where it comes to like empowering others and nurturing and the ability to hold deep compassionate space and be empathetic which are all powerful qualities	8	6	4	and woman cool but you don't want her to be just that you know you want her to have the ability to tap into that other side when necessary I think we all desire that balance in our partner and I think it's healthy and if we just learn how to maintain it and how to nurture it we would see greater success in relationships	yeah what are some of the skills with with mastering that energy that you think we're missing out on and balancing that energy and knowing when to be which and because the reason why it's hard is I think we live in a binary world right like you feel like you have to choose like you're either a bad boy or you're a good girl you are a doer or you're a thinker you're uh winner or you're a loser right like we think like that and some people go okay you need to be masculine or I can be feminine and I I definitely relate to what you were saying like I believe that there is a lot about me that is massively masculine in energy using that language and terminology my drive my ambition how I work my strategic mind and at the same time I consider myself to have a lot of great feminine energy and qualities where it comes to like empowering others and nurturing and the ability to hold deep compassionate space and be empathetic which are all powerful qualities	8,6,9	7,5,8	8	6	9	7	5	8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPQBcb9wf8Q	4,056	mPQBcb9wf8Q	2023-03-27 00:00:00	you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you're wasting your time the best-selling author and host the number one Health and Wellness podcast on purpose with Jay Shetty what are the signs that someone deeply loves you because I feel like we live in this world where we're always wondering do they love me do they like me do they really like me are they really into me how do you know when you deeply love someone and when someone deeply loves you how do you even know so I'm gonna start with an answer that people probably won't expect to me the first key is do you truly love them because look at it like this to me a lot of people get caught up in infatuation um they have unhealthy attachments they have different motivations to why they decided this is the person that I want and that can make them feel like they're in love but to me true love flows both ways it's not a one-sided thing so when you can say I I'm not into them like that if we look deep into that situation I can almost guarantee what we'll find is infatuation attachment something else but when you can say no I feel it too I'm deeply in love with them I think that's your first key because without that nothing else matters because a lot of people are choosing Partners based off of what they love me so much so I assume it's safe here and this is a good choice to make but the safe choice is usually the wrong choice and a lot of these people select this individual thinking everything's going to be okay but because you're not really into them you can never be what they need and they were never truly what you needed which is why you never even got to that level with them so to choose them without first evaluating do you truly love them would not be wise yeah that's that's a great question and I think people struggle with that question too because I think we think of love as so many different things wrapped into one for example I could think I love someone because of how they treat me I could think I love someone because they have one quality that I really wish I had or I could love someone because I think that they're out of my league and they give me a bit of attention yeah and so what we think is love is so complex and so wide that we never stop to ask ourselves like what does love mean like what's the definition of love like how do I Define love so how do you define love and how do you encourage other people to create their definitions of Love well for me first off is always God is love and then when we take it from there love is about kindness compassion patience understanding a willingness to be selfless important to that individual but I think what's also important for people to understand is when we're trying to apply it to romantic relationships we have to understand that there's other ingredients that are necessary before we can move forward so you could love someone dearly but if they are not emotionally ready because maybe they haven't healed from their past maybe there's still some things that need to work out in their life then it wouldn't be time to move forward in a relationship with them and we have this bad habit of the minute we feel like there's love there we want to move forward exactly and as you mentioned we can get caught up sometimes in but we love them because of what they do for us but what are you prepared to do for them love is about giving all right so we have to ask ourselves okay do we know what their needs are are we willing to fulfill those needs because if not maybe this wasn't love maybe it just felt good in the moment maybe you got caught up in the hype and that's okay it happens to almost all of us if not all of us at some point in life but we have to just be real very clear with ourselves about what's really driving the intention right now but I think all those things I mentioned is what encompasses love of and that's like the foundation of it and then from there we have to look at some other things to see how we can move forward so many times like you you convince yourself something's love and what I find really interesting is that so many people fall in love too fast and no one wants to go for the slow patient understanding love which is what love requires you just said love is kind love is patient love is understanding those things take time I think those things take time to nurture and to to make sure that we're doing it correctly for each other so it's about learning each other's Love Languages and how we make it work in within that Dynamic I think also because so many people are not used to dealing with emotions at on that level being that vulnerable people mishandle it all right so it takes time for us to get to a place so we understand how to manage this and work through this however I think that I'm a huge believer in connection and I believe connection is like your spirit recognizing its match and it's very instant when you speak to couples who said they experience a connection they'll tell you first conversation first time meeting first date first week it was pretty fast so to me the the recognizing of something deeper being here can happen very quickly but how we now cultivate that and how we move forward is where we need to take our time and make sure we're not rushing and overlooking certain important issues that need to be discussed and addressed first to me it's the understanding of chemistry versus compatibility and the idea that there needs to be a spark there needs to be a connection that I feel with someone like you're saying on a deeper level but I find that I find that most people are not Adept and knowing whether the connection they feel with someone is deeper or physical yeah like I would say that it's easy to it you can often feel a spark with if you meet a lot of people you can feel a spot with a lot of people but that doesn't mean that they're the right person to build a relationship absolutely right yes so it's connection to me is a very rare occurrence right yes so I feel that people who've actually experienced it they can tell you maybe once in their life if you're lucky two times maybe all right but it's not this thing that happens with everybody whereas chemistry uh feeling of spark these things can happen with a lot of different people yeah so I do think there's there's this education that's needed to understand how we differentiate these things so that we don't confuse them because I see a lot of people take that chemistry and think oh this is it this is the one it's like but you had chemistry with the last five people why is this one the one and not them so I do think we have to be careful with that yeah I think so so we're on the same page there's three things there's connection on the deeper level there's chemistry which is like the spark on a more superficial level and then there's compatibility which is like what makes get lost and I can relate to that with my wife I definitely felt so I I'm one of those people who I kind of knew from the first few moments when I met my wife before she was my wife was like I was like yeah this is my person like I felt that way yeah for sure I felt that connection and there was chemistry there too but it had to be turned into compatibility in order to create a long lasting relationship we've been together for 10 years we're still learning building going through everything but that was a big part of it so that I can get behind is do you see it that way too or is there something different in so how do you see it believe it or not I used to make compatibility the least important but that was because I was looking at it the wrong way once I kind of looked at the definition again and compatibility is about two people coexisting in harmony yeah then I was like okay no you you have to have that I just I got caught up more so in like let's say a dating site says okay we're gonna decide who's compatible so I view compatible as like an on the paper it looks good it's supposed to match but you can have a lot of people who are supposed to be compatible and it doesn't work absolutely so I think that it's compatibility is that add-on once we have the connection and the chemistry now we have to create that Harmony which is the compatibility yes I agree with you and and it is interesting how that word compatibility is thrown around and you're so right that compatibility on paper doesn't mean compatibility in real life exactly and to me compatibility really has another word inside of it which is like adaptability and that deeper understanding of an individual where you know how much you're willing to adapt around certain parts of the relationship but we'll get to that I think a lot of people like you know and and that's where we got into this conversation around what is slow a lot of people are waiting to feel like is this person wasting my time are they the one and so they don't have a deeper connection maybe they had that spark of chemistry and now that's kind of subsided how do you know if someone's wasting your time how do you know if you're letting yourself be used or wasted in that way so to me again I think it always starts with self and you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you because just use an example let's say you're a woman and the only reason why you're holding on to this guy is because he's a nice guy you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you figure let me try to make it work you're wasting your time this is where you're setting yourself up for disaster every single time so if it's not born out of a true connection love a genuine desire you really like this individual of course there's always things we have to work through but is the foundation strong enough for us to say okay we can make something special here and I think once we are honest with ourselves that kind of helps answer the question because sometimes we get so caught up trying to animal lies the other individual that is like we get in our heads and now we're missing the mark on what's really important here and we can't always say for sure what's going on with them I will say that in general if this person isn't willing to talk about things they're wasting your time if they're not willing to address or correct things that have been talked about they're wasting your time if you guys aren't on the same page about what you want and where you want to go in life wasting time so there are some things I think we can just look at and say listen this is pointless here but a lot of times and I have to say this especially for women women's intuition is extremely powerful I'm a huge believer in it and I feel like women know very early this isn't it but they rationalize reasons to convince themselves to give this man a chance and this again is a waste of time because it just doesn't work I've seen people turn what should have been maybe a couple weeks of dating into years of being married to someone they were not happy with all because they did not listen to themselves from the beginning they knew what it was but they just could not accept it for what it was yeah and I love that point on intuition it's almost like when a relationship finally ends a lot of us think to ourselves I knew they weren't right yeah like I knew it I knew that they weren't the one but you just didn't listen to that part of yourself yes so so let's break it down for people let's help people out we started talking about three very important words connection which you defined chemistry which we've defined in compatibility which we've defined how do people know the difference between connection and chemistry when they meet someone because I find that the science shows that you're experiencing dopamine and cortisol at the same times you're experiencing the reward chemical and stress chemical at the same time which gives you that chemistry feeling which is the feeling of butterflies in your stomach or like do they like me are they into me what should I wear that kind of feeling but then you're talking about a deeper connection how do you hear the difference because I think a lot of us just get swept up in the feeling of I'm So Into that person they're so into me how do you know so I think one is are you even being yourself or can you be yourself with this individual if if you're presenting your representative then this is not a real connection this is them falling for that person that you're presenting but that's not real so to me you have you should be already being yourself but with that person you have a connection with it's a more natural flow we don't have to force it we just feel so much more comfortable around them I think in addition to that is when you when you find yourself all caught up in the moment and caught up in that chemistry again you have to ask yourself what am I really attaching myself to what about what do I really like about this individual what I find is that when it's really about chemistry we're still on the surface you don't really know about them yet you just know you guys had a good time maybe you had fun at this event you guys were able to talk about a lot of different things which is great which is gonna also be important if there is a connection however do you even know what college did they want do you know what kind of Life they want to live you know are you guys really on the same page I think connection is our paths align our purpose is align so for us to align we have to have a deeper understanding of where we're headed and can we head there together so so that's why I think though you may feel it or you may feel like you're feeling it you have to do your due diligence to dig deeper to find out okay is this just I got caught up on the surface or there is something real here yeah and I think once we ask enough questions because I think that's the other big problem we have this experience where we feel this chemistry we're so excited and now we're afraid to ask questions because we don't want to blow up the fantasy yes you know what I'm saying we're just like no no I want to keep believing this is great so let me not ask anything let me not run this person away let me not rock the boat but that's going to be what tells us if this is real or not yes I think you're I think you've hit on something there like we're so scared of losing someone that we're okay with not asking important questions and discovering important truths that actually define whether this relationship is going to last absolutely and that is ultimately going back to your point earlier that is ultimately you not being yourself right you're losing yourself scared that you're going to lose the other person so you're okay with not being yourself do you think it's ever okay this is a funny question I think but I have to ask you because I think it's a healthy discussion do you think it's ever okay to present different sides of yourself in order to attract someone or do you think that you're ultimately setting yourself up for failure in a relationship almost like I think a lot of people they may not become someone completely different but I think a lot of people are like oh I'm gonna show my smart side because it will attract this person or I'm gonna show my this side because they're like that are you saying any of that kind of molding is unhealthy or do you think there's room for that I think anything that is not sustainable is unhealthy so look at it as if I'm a man and I'm meeting this woman I want to impress her so I'm like okay I'm gonna try to spend all my money take a nice five-star restaurant all these things but deep inside I prefer a more simple lifestyle you know I don't like all that extra stuff okay that's horrible that's a sale for disaster that's unhealthy because you can't sustain what you're presenting to that individual that's gonna draw them in so whatever it is another like common example is you'll have women who love to communicate they want to be able to talk to you every single day but because they're afraid of coming off a certain kind of way they'll hold back on their communication so now they'll make it seem like they're okay with talking every now and then we don't always have to text and then this guy falls for that he falls for this low standard I won't call low standard but not having such a high expectation of him when it comes to communication then he finally gets with the woman her true self is going to come out at some point no one can suppress their true self forever it comes out and now it's like what is this I did not sign up for this now we're fighting now we're stressed because you want him to call you more he was used to you not being worried about it so much that's why it's going to always not work out so it's extremely unhealthy unless we're presenting a side of us that is truly us and we can sustain it you've hit on something again that that at the beginning of relationships we often display unrealistic standards and we set those yes and then when things shift and now you're back in reality again the other person's like but wait a minute I thought you were really into me and I even went through that with my wife when we first met I was able to spend pretty much every day with her because I didn't have a job and so I was looking for work I was applying I would go see her at her College every day and I would spend the day with her and I'd be in the library applying for jobs while she was studying yeah and I could see it every day and I think I saw every day potentially for like six months maybe every single day five days a week at least and then when I got a job that wasn't the case anymore because I was at work now and I'd set this unrealistic expectation that we could see each other all the time and even in the beginning I would see her all the time because I'd spend time with her family but we wouldn't spend time with my family because I hadn't told my family yet and so now that my family knew we were trying to split the time and all of a sudden it was like wait a minute we used to spend time at my house and so even in little things like that it took a bit of adapting because I'd set a false standard in our relationship and then thankfully my wife was adapting and she understood and she got it and it was fine but I think for so many people you set unrealistic expectations in who you are yes and that's hard to come back from absolutely yeah and that's why it's so important for us to know who we are so that we can present the real from the jump you know because again A lot of times people you know this idea that we're always changing yes I do think we're always evolving but some of the big shifts that you see are is not because that's just the way life is it's because you did take the time to figure yourself out first and then you got with this person and now you want them to adjust now thank God for you she was able to adjust but there's a lot of people that they can't handle that yeah and now everything falls apart from there so that's why yeah we have to be very careful with what we're presenting from the beginning yeah it's I I agree with you on that that we think people change but actually they just start to understand themselves exactly they went from being completely unconscious about who they were you met an unconscious version of a person yeah and now you think they're changing but they just became conscious of who they are absolutely and but the thing is Stefan as you know like Society doesn't encourage that time of getting to know yourself right when you're young you're not trained in how to think about who you want to be you're trained in thinking about what you want to I do it's about your job it's about your career you're not thinking about who you are as a human being or as a person so how do we in this Society where understanding who you are is not clear it's not encouraged where where does one start or where have you kind of found great insights in trying to discover who we are I would love to see more parents encouraging their children to explore how they're feeling about who they are like what I have found is a lot of people who let's say I I had one client where she wanted to be an actress when she was a little kid uh but parents kind of push in a different direction now she's like a social worker but her desire is still to be an actress like the things that they they wanted to do they they want to do as an adult now you can find back in their childhood in a lot of cases so I feel like too many people have stifled their children's growth in certain areas with limited ideas of well this can't make money or this wouldn't be a good look for the family or whatever the case may be it's like no let them walk in it and see for themselves if that's really where they belong outside of that for me I think the big thing is getting in tune spiritually I'm just a huge believer in that I feel like me finding myself was when I went into what I call my Wilderness period I kind of just shut everything off that I was doing because I used to be all over having fun partying all these different things things and then God kind of slapped me upside my head and I had to like really pull away from everything and go deeper from within and it felt like a process of breaking me down to build me right back up and that's when I start to see things clearer because what I realized is the world is filled with distractions and it's the distractions why we can't see ourselves for who we really are if we simply shut off the distractions long enough you will learn a lot so even if someone just took a year off don't worry you know limit the TV you're watching limit the music you're listening to limit all the internet stuff just really go deeper within yourself spend more time alone spend more time you know thinking and processing you will learn a lot because again a lot of it is it isn't a problem of we don't know ourselves we are not aware and we're not willing to accept and once we allow ourselves to do those two things become aware and then accept it we become free yeah I I mean I agree with you I think that I've always been a big proponent of solitude to understand who you are because as soon as you have another person you now have another person's opinions you have to filter yes as soon as you have another person in front of you you have another person's judgments to filter and so now you can't even say what you truly think about something because you're constantly thinking what does that person think about me and my beliefs and so understanding your beliefs in solitude allows you to be really clear about what your values and beliefs are and and that's what it's there for I think when people get into if we switch to compatibility again the idea we talked about the difference between connection and chemistry but compatibility is really interesting because a lot of people believe that relationships should be hard and they require hard work and a lot of people believe relationships should be easy and everything should just flow where have you kind of discovered your lens on that Spectrum so okay there's a there's a couple ways to look at it I think that most relationships and I'll even be more specific most relations that involve connection and true love are typically hard not because relationships have to be hard but because most people have been hurt by something in their life are holding on to past traumas haven't resolved it once they meet this individual that they feel so strongly about it is scary this is where things get difficult it's the difficultness in how do I handle this how do I manage this you'll have people feel like they're losing themselves but they're not losing themselves their true self is coming out and it's it's the self that's been hiding behind that wall they've been using for quote-unquote protection but I always say the same module to protect you the same as blocking your blessings so now they're being pulled from behind it it's it's makes them feel some kind of way and again people start to mishandle things you also have situations where people are getting bad advice like I'm gonna give one example um there's this uh book called The Game by Neil Strauss I don't know if you ever read that book yeah it was great Neil you know you you answer that world to pick up artistry we learned it and he was great with the women but then once he found that woman that he fell in love with all that stuff doesn't work anymore so you have a lot of men being taught how to handle women in general but they don't understand that's not how you handle the woman you truly love and so now again you have individuals who though they are truly in love with this person they constantly mishandle it with bad Guidance with fear and all these things this is what makes it hard and and I even think that a lot of times the people who are supposed to be together sometimes will have the hardest time getting together but I believe that once we're able to conquer that part of it and actually come together it's not hard yes it takes work I believe we have to be conscious and mindful of how we treat our partners how we show up being willing to listen but I think it's so much easier to do those things with someone you have a connection with and you're truly in love with it's gonna always feel ten times harder when you're in the wrong relationship and I would argue the vast majority of people are in the wrong relationship that's why they're seeing it be so difficult and when you see this whole it's easy typically it's easy because you have two people who are not digging deeper they're they're trying to write out that chemistry we talked about earlier for as long as possible all right so yeah it seems like it's great it's easy no issues but it doesn't really work like that because they're just not facing the reality of the situation so I think we we have to understand that there is going to be some bumps in the road because of all the things that people have been through but once we're able to come together and we know this is our partner this is who we want to share our life with it can get so much better yeah and do you do you think that people have just been given generally the wrong education on how to deal with another person in their life 100 yeah because unfortunately a lot of individuals are giving advice from a bit or hurt place there and and they're trying to disguise it as I'm just looking out for you no you you have inhaled and you cannot properly guide them in a positive and loving Manner and I think that a lot of people you know I always say it's funny how we'll spend a lot of time getting educated for the for the sake of our careers and business but we don't do the same for relationships and yet relationships arguably are even more important than that career business and even if it's not a romantic relationship just relationships in general your ability to coexist with others connect with others is extremely important if you want that business to succeed you have to learn how to establish business relationships there's no way around it so we have to learn how to talk to people listen to people you know what I'm saying and just make make things work when we come together with other individuals so I definitely think that we're just lacking in a lot of education and again too many because there's so many voices on the internet now there's just so much bad advice being given and and the individuals giving it they may be giving like let's say 80 of the advice is accurate but it's that 20 that's completely off that can derail everything and that's the stuff that people are gravitating to and this is causing a lot of problems can you give us some example of some of the like not specific people or anything like that I just mean like could you give example of bad advice and what about it is bad or unhealthy for people to try and put into practice okay so one thing I heard recently was an individual told uh said some of the best advice you can give to men is to not fall in love you know basically just find a woman you want to be with and kind of keep it there the reason why I view that as horrible advice is because you sit down with any man who's lived enough life they will all be able to say there's been at least one time they fail deeply for a woman all right the problem isn't falling deep before a woman the problem is we don't know how to handle it once we get there the problem is because we're not accustomed to handling and processing our emotions a certain kind of way and being this vulnerable we don't understand what's going to be required of us in that moment we also kind of lose sight of because I'm a big believer in masculine and feminine energy and I believe that if she was attracted to you because of that masculine energy that you give off and now you become this emotional wreck because you don't know how to handle all these feelings you have for her well you start to become less attractive to her and it's not that it's not fixable it's fixable but again a lack of understanding and awareness derails the situation so rather than telling men don't fall in love because it's inevitable let's teach them how we walk in love how we make what I call Loving in your masculine how you maintain that energy and still be able to pour into that woman in a way that allows relationship to flourish yeah and how does that work when I think obviously a lot of people in that example that you're giving if if the person is attracted to someone because of their masculine energy but at the same time they want them to be empathetic and compassionate and kind which are generally seen as more feminine energy how does that person balance the two or is that is that not how you're explaining is that no it's about balance so we have to understand we all have masculine and feminine of course within us I'm a Believer in one must be your dominant energy the other is the one you tap into when necessary so as a man you can walk in your masculine and in those moments tap into those things but you can't just stay there all the time all right you can't just become this needy emotional God that's not going to work in the vast majority of cases and so what happens is there's this messaging that's being thrown out there that women don't like good guys I don't believe that's what it is I believe that women become less attracted when you don't know how to exude and walk in your masculine energy it's and and we're hiding behind the label of good guy you can be a good guy and still exude masculine energy and that's the thing and we also think that oh they like bad boys no if you look deeper it's really the masculine energy that that quote-unquote bad boy exudes but what they desire is a mixture of both the same way that we would want a mixture of both we would want a loving sweet woman family woman whatever or and if you're a guy who wants a mask and woman cool but you don't want her to be just that you know you want her to have the ability to tap into that other side when necessary I think we all desire that balance in our partner and I think it's healthy and if we just learn how to maintain it and how to nurture it we would see greater success in relationships yeah what are some of the skills with with mastering that energy that you think we're missing out on and balancing that energy and knowing when to be which and because the reason why it's hard is I think we live in a binary world right like you feel like you have to choose like you're either a bad boy or you're a good girl you are a doer or you're a thinker you're uh winner or you're a loser right like we think like that and some people go okay you need to be masculine or I can be feminine and I I definitely relate to what you were saying like I believe that there is a lot about me that is massively masculine in energy using that language and terminology my drive my ambition how I work my strategic mind and at the same time I consider myself to have a lot of great feminine energy and qualities where it comes to like empowering others and nurturing and the ability to hold deep compassionate space and be empathetic which are all powerful qualities for for everyone right Beyond gender they're powerful qualities and I appreciate and it's taken a long time to know when to be which and it's still and I still make mistakes right there's still sometimes like I should have been more assertive I should have been more affectionate so we live in a world that finds it hard to hold two opposing ideas at the same time yeah we don't know how to do that in any sphere of life let alone within ourselves so what are some of the skills that we can learn in order to nurture both those energies in a healthy way inside of ourselves so I think one it's going to require a lot of if you're already in a relationship it's going to boil down to a lot of transparency and communication you know her if you're that man trying to understand that woman and when you can walk in those two energies her being willing to be honest and open about you know what this was too much over here or I needed some of this over here and in time you're going to become more aware and understanding it's going to be like second nature to you you won't have to overthink it and I think part of it is not overthinking it it's kind of like being ourselves but understanding that we have to learn when this is doing too much and vice versa I also think that in reality for a lot of men especially uh when we're talking about relationships and kind of losing that masculine energy the the underlying issue is fear all right when we become so afraid of losing this woman we lose ourselves and so a lot of men now fall into this very feminine needy space because they're just afraid we have to learn that listen like to me I feel if your partner thinks you're never gonna walk away from them no matter what they do you've lost that's that's a horrible place to be in we have to get to a place where we both understand that as long as we show up the way that we need to show up for each other we have each other's back we will be here but neither of us will tolerate an unhealthy relationship and someone who blatantly does not want to work on making this better I would want my the woman I'm with to feel that way and I need to feel that way once we understand that and you have the confidence of I can walk away if I have to that shifts your energy right there in itself and now you don't find yourself falling into that place where again you start to look a lot more unattractive or for some men they become yes men in their relationships thinking that makes her happy that's turning her off she doesn't want you to be her yes man she wants you to stand up for yourself sometimes give your opinion give your perspective she wants to be able to you know if anything be able to have discussions with you about these things not just you say whatever you want whatever you want whatever you want over time it becomes a problem so I think that once we conquer that fear once we create a space where we can talk about these moments and not feel some kind of way I think sometimes men are not they struggle with taking the criticism from their partner men and women we we all do when we feel when we have actual feelings for someone you know we don't care about you it's not as big of a deal but we're emotionally invested we're more sensitive to it but we have to understand that these criticisms are for the sake of making things better and strengthening this relationship so once we can get to that place it's going to be so much easier to grow in it and then I think it's just a matter of understanding that it's this balance isn't just for your relationship so look at it like from a sports perspective if I'm on a basketball team there may be moments where I need to take the lead and recognize all right everyone else is down someone needs to step up this is my moment and then there's other moments where I realize okay let's say we already have a team captain let me show them that I can follow serve do what needs to be done so that the team can win it's just becoming aware of what the moment requires you know and again I think the more in tune we get the more in tune we get with ourselves and the more in tune we get with our partner the easier it becomes to find that balance that's the challenge right the challenge is just how much patience we have with ourselves and others to realize that you walked into an imbalance unbalanced situation and now it's like how much patience how much time are we going to give it to get to that because the challenge is I think we walk into a situation thinking it's perfect whereas we should be walking into a relationship knowing it's imperfect absolutely and we're going to learn and figure it out together and I think that's what sets us up for failure is because we walk into it going it's perfect and deep down we know it isn't but somehow we gloss over it whereas I find when I know we're gonna fight when I know we're gonna argue and I know there's going to be disagreements that sets me up to develop the skills I need in order to navigate those things yes but if I assume like oh we're never gonna fight and I always get that right we always meet someone who goes to I mean a friend who goes to me Jay we never fight I'm like how long have you been together because I don't I don't know anyone who never fights I get that no one has to get to like yeah the heights of fights yeah I did that I did that it doesn't have to be a heated fight but I don't know anyone who doesn't disagree there you go all right right I think that's important for people to understand yeah there's a difference yes you have some individuals out there that'll say arguing is normal it's healthy and to me it's like listen if we're talking about arguing where we're now Crossing disrespectful lines negative lines you know the way that we the tone we take with each other all these things that's not healthy yes it may happen you should be prepared for that but it does let's not normalize it just gonna keep doing this and it's it is what it is but you're right to to be with each other long enough and never have a disagreement that's extremely rare okay extremely rare and I do think that again as you mentioned we have to be ready for those moments we have to understand and going back to how we find that balance especially as men and even for women it's recognizing so for example if my partner is in a very heated moment let's say she's in her masculine right now all right she's getting rough well meeting her with more masculine is probably going to only make things worse yeah this is the time for me to be compassionate go to her hold her calm her down bring her peace in that moment you see because it we need to balance each other out same thing on the flip side if I'm all heated and I'm I'm extra passionate and then my woman now comes with that same energy that's it now where button has this is her moment to say no let me now be the one to soften the moment up bring that Sweetness in there and everybody calms down so it's learning how to feed off of each other and recognize okay they're over here let me bring it back over here and now we can work from that point and we're both good the problem is that we all see compassion and sweetness and kindness in those moments as a weakness we don't want to be that person because we see that as losing we see that as giving in we see that as us losing our power and strength in a relationship if we become the comforter or if we become the carer right like that's that's a perception that is the perception and we have to change that that is the power position so who is more powerful the person that lets the energy dictate them how they're going to react or the person that brings the energy and dictates how they're going to make this situation play out so if I'm coming in to calm it down and being all sweet because I'm trying to bring peace here I'm in the power position I'm not losing anything I'm gonna gain more peace and happiness and Harmony if I succeed in what I'm trying to do so we have to get out of that mindset of this makes us weaker and that is the big key of it that's a big problem that for a lot of women who struggle with their feminine energy that's a big issue where they feel that being feminine is weakness it's what got them taken advantage of and got them hurt but I always say it's not the feminine energy that's the problem it's who you give it to do they respect it did they honor it you know it's the same thing as a man does she respect your masculine if she doesn't then that might just be a sign you're with the wrong person but don't stop being that guy because the woman who's best for you is going to need that in those moments that that's exactly what it is is that when people have been their best selves for the wrong person that person brings out the worst in them yes right like when someone's been their best loving kindness self but someone took advantage of it that person now thinks next time I've got to be aggressive I've got to be you know powerful I've got to be strong in this way and I feel like that's kind of what most people are dealing with we know that is that you're just dealing with a wounded version of someone yes not a healed version of someone but I think people struggle to trust again and again especially when they see the same patterns in the person they're weird and I guess the question is why do we keep making the same mistakes because I feel like a lot of us keep dating the same people yeah and there's a part of us that also just keeps closing off or being more wounded it's almost like if you cut yourself you now walk around with your hand over that you don't want to get cut again and then if you lead it off and it gets cut even deeper now you're even more conscious of that and so I find that people are doing that where they're closing their heart more and more because it's been so misused and abused and I understand that I understand people don't want to be abused and misused but I guess the question is how do people find people that they know respect them so that they can be their best version or be a better version of themselves so you know you can't drive out Darkness with more Darkness you can't expose someone who's gonna hurt you by being someone who's closed off and holding back yourself we have it's kind of what we were just talking about we have to look at being vulnerable loving and open as not just well I'm setting myself to be hurt no it's how you expose people faster if I come with that energy and you cannot respect it match it then I know you don't belong here but if I hold back I give you a free pass to hold back so now we have two individuals who are hiding behind their walls because it's comfortable there but you can't really see what's what do we really have in front of us those walls are blinding you and you can't properly evaluate the situation so one we we got to get to a place of healing from our past so that we're not just walking around with the hand over the cut no you you gotta let the cup breathe you gotta let it heal all right holding on put your hand on there is delaying the process and like you said all that's gonna happen is when you finally take your hand off but you're taking it off with the wrong person and you haven't learned see what I want people to realize is your actions weren't the problem meaning you being loving sweet kind compassionate wasn't the problem it was the person separate those two things that you don't stop doing the good things now granted are there levels to this to where we have to learn again if I'm thinking about a man if you got so deeply emotional to where you kind of lost your your masculine energy and you became very needy okay you can say all right I need to continue to be loving but I know I have to learn how to draw a line I have to learn how not to cross that moment and again you only crossed it because you were unhealthy to begin with you only cross it because you were afraid to begin with once you get to that place where you're healthy and confident you won't find yourself Crossing that line anymore yeah you won't tolerate certain things anymore so we have to heal we have to be confident and we have to let our light shine so that we can expose what's in front of us easier that's a brilliant answer I I love the differentiation between how sharing your light is not the problem the person's the problem because we yeah we start to doubt whether being a good person a loving person is actually what wins in the world yeah and the truth is that it does win but it has to win with someone who can receive it and absolutely hold that space with you and share that space with you and I find that a lot of people keep giving that energy to the wrong person because we feel we can make them better right like there's this feeling of like I can change this person I can make them better I can heal them there's some of us want to fix people yeah and that means we assume the person we're with is broken and I think this is such a subconscious thing like if you're always critiquing if you're always picking at stuff with your partner chances are you don't think they're great like just now you think there's some issues with them when you think that you can fix them and they're broken tell us about that angle where now we're almost we've talked about being the loving and kind person but sometimes we're being the person that thinks we're loving and kind because we want to improve someone but that person doesn't want to improve one big problem is that what's really driving people to pick that individual is that by being the one that can upgrade you improve you I have more value here by having more value I have a false sense of security you have to appreciate me you're less likely to walk away you're less likely to cheat because you're lucky to have me I feel like I'm the prize here but those situations never really work because again you're choosing someone that is not capable of pouring into you the way you need you're basing this off of what you could do for them and that's not sustainable and you're choosing them because again you have more emotional control here what happens to so many people especially women it's something that I call the unhealthy love cycle of women where women in their first love experience outside of any childhood trauma may have experienced they're their most loving they're just out there they go all the way in but that typically happens at a younger age at an age where men are not mature enough to handle those kind of emotions that level of commitment so on and so forth so she gets hurt after she gets hurt her moment is saying to herself I will never let this happen to me again so now the woman starts to consciously or subconsciously choose men who are I don't want to say lower than hurt but essentially a man who does not take her there he's good enough to be with but I'm not that vulnerable with him he can't hurt me like that first love hurt me and so that Dynamic usually leads to picking that person I can fix I can make better who will appreciate and respect me but again it doesn't work out and many times you'll see these same situations the guy will move on to cheat on her not because and I have to say this because some women think yeah he's just being a man no not because he's a man but because you chose a man that you could never be the woman that he needed and he could never be the man that you needed once he kind of either gets what he needs from you to build himself up or the Smoke Clears from him being infatuated with you he starts to realize I'm not getting everything that I desire and now you building him up has brought him more attention from other women so now the the difference between what you're not giving him and what someone else is willing to give him becomes way clearer now the Temptation gets way stronger and he ends up doing something or she ends up cheating as well because he's safe but he doesn't fulfill her he doesn't satisfy her he he doesn't excite her in any kind of way and that's why I always said earlier like the safe choice is almost always the wrong choice but that is a function of people trying to choose these fix or uppers because they think it's going to give them some leverage there it's leverage that's it yeah it's leverage yeah how do you know when it's time to go like how do you know when it's like I feel like this is a common question where it's like how do you know when it's just I've tried everything we've tried together tried our best maybe we went to therapy maybe we got a coach or maybe you know maybe we didn't do those things how do I just know that I feel like I need to go but I'm scared of being alone yeah I'm I'm scared of dealing with the reality that I put in a lot of energy and I feel like you said this earlier but a lot of people stay in something for a lot longer than they should because they'd rather not be alone yes they'd rather not face reality they'd rather not lose two years of their life they'd rather lose two more thinking that this this should stay like how do you know when it's time to go let me first say this yes I think I think Society needs to change their thinking as far as Letting Go doesn't always mean it can't work out later it's just that it cannot work out under these circumstances all right because some people say well I feel like they're the one okay maybe they are but maybe the time is not right and it's letting go that will allow you both to do what needs to be done in your own personal lives that would allow you to come back together and have something way more amazing so that's number one thing to consider but outside of that it's when one if that person is unwilling to put in the work necessary it's time to go there's like so many times I'll I'll have a video go up about communication and someone will comment saying I've tried talking to him and he doesn't want to talk to me and in my head I'm like why are you still with them if he refuses to talk to you you've already tried there's nothing else to do but people will let it Linger on and continue why they can why they consistently complain or unhappy about this specific issue it's not gonna magically get better they're not gonna just change it just because all of a sudden they see oh it needs to change no if they're fighting it now they have no reason to change it and what people have to understand you know especially with this whole trying to fix people up healing and facing your traumas is one of the hardest things for people to do so if they already have you in their life they're essentially getting the incentive or the benefit of relationship without having to do the deeper work it's almost like if I'm at a job and the job says you need to have a master's degree to work here but we're going to hire you anyway and give you time to get that master's degree if getting that degree is super hard to you you're gonna drag that out as long as possible yeah you may never get the degree until they fire you when they fire you and you realize oh my gosh if I don't do this I'll never get this person back I'll never get this opportunity back now they might go and get it because it's very tough to walk down the path of the healing process so if they're not willing to work on it you guys have already discussed it and I think that's a big thing because there's a lot of relationships that end and the couples don't even know what the real issue was so the communication they'll say well we talked about no you guys argued you guys lashed out there wasn't a clear communication as to what the problem was what is expected how do we go about this if you've done that and I believe one of the most effective ways to do that is through a letter because I feel like verbal communication of deep issues and concerns they typically don't go well you know people get distracted they forget what they want to say the other person gets defensive they're not they're listening to rebuttal not to understand but when there's a letter involved it gives you time to get everything out you can you can evaluate your tone leave no stone unturned and now they have an opportunity to process it on their time to really take it in and then you guys can come together and discuss the letter and now it's so much easier to stay on point and get everything covered if we've done that and they're still unwilling or there's still no progress It's Time to Go yeah that's great that's great advice and I for me that's the biggest one it's like you can't make something last if only one person's working on it you can't keep hoping and waiting and wishing and and like you said that ending doesn't mean forever and often I found that two people need to grow individually to be able to grow collectively and we're forcing growing together so hard but we need space to grow and if you can't grow together chances are you need to grow apart in order to see whether you grow together again or grow for someone else and all of those options are okay but we put so much pressure on people to grow together that they grow apart yeah and actually if they chose to grow apart and grow separately they could come back together if they learn the lessons and I think that's a mistake too though sometimes people think I'm gonna go learn this lesson for this person I meet a lot of people they're like okay they broke up with me because I wasn't XYZ now I'm gonna go become XYZ to win them back yeah and I always find I'm just like well no you should go become XYZ if you think you were missing XYZ but not to win them back because you don't know what they're gonna do what's your take on people trying to win people back so I 100 agree with you like if we're trying to learn or grow it needs to be for the benefit of who we are and just whoever we deal with so was almost like if I was a bad Communicator in this relationship I shouldn't learn to better communicate for that person I need to better communicate for whoever I'm going to be with if you can't see it in that light then maybe you're looking at the wrong thing my thing is this I think it all depends on what the details of the situation was what led to the breakup what were you overlooking what was missing are these fixable issues because a lot of people are trying to win back someone where the issues are not resolved so it's like what's the point of going back we're just going to go in the same cycle all over again they're letting this idea of I miss them I don't want to be without them blind them from the fact that you two did not get along well or you two don't want the same things or YouTube just whatever it is maybe there's a lack of sexual satisfaction I don't know why I feel the need to mention that but it happens a lot of times you have to stay focused on what led to the end and can this be corrected if it can cool but as you mentioned listen correcting it does not guarantee you they're coming back and even if they will come back you don't know when they may need so you may have figured yourself out in six months they might need a year and I would argue if you guys are truly meant for each other and at the end of the year you need a year too you're just overlooking some things and you're rushing the process because you want to get back to them yeah it's I've never found a situation where it was truly only one person who had problems and the other person was squeaky clean no no you thought you were but you got some stuff too you needed to correct of course so I think we have to be honest with ourselves and just keep striving to be better and rather than focus on winning them back just become the best you because if you do and there's a true connection there the opportunity will present itself again and you too will be able to make something of it and the struggle is that when people finally make that decision to break up or let go the study showed that the parts of your brain that are activated in a breakup are the same as detoxing from cocaine right like you're literally trying to detox so you can have a craving yeah for someone that's bad for you yeah or also it says that the areas of the brain that are activated in a breakup are the areas that are the same with physical pain so if someone like punching the stomach the reason why we say like my heart feels broken is because it literally feels like something's broken yeah so when you're going through a breakup when you're feeling the craving to be with that person again studies show that eight over eighty percent of people are looking at what their exes are doing on social media right probably through a Finster account or whatever but you have to you have to know what are some of the healthiest tips that you've given to people and the people that you've worked with that have genuinely helped people move through a breaker the first thing is to ask yourself again why was I even there why am I holding on to this individual again I think sometimes we get so blinded by just the experience or our desire to have this person for whatever reason that we Overlook what was really missing or why this could not work anyway what you'll also find is and I'm sure there's probably a study on it where if you if they broke up with you you ever see a situation it happens on TV a lot where the person could be like okay I'm gonna break up with my partner they're planning on it they've been practicing in their head right it took them a couple weeks to muster up the strength they're about to do it and then the partner breaks up with them yeah now it's oh my gosh I gotta get them back yeah so it's like you just forgot this whole time that was your plan yeah it just gave you the past to do it but now because we don't like to be the one being let go of now we're fighting hard to get it back yeah so we have to really not fall into these little traps that happen to us as human beings our brains just playing tricks on us or something where we confuse these emotions for oh my gosh I must really love them or even like you said you go into that detox and because you miss I always tell people no matter how bad the relationship was there's always good moments so if you're trying to break free you can't just let your brain focus on the good moments you have to remind yourself why this doesn't work but if you keep focusing on the good you start to make yourself think oh because I missed this good moment I must miss them and there's this quote that says sometimes you're not missing the person you're missing the feeling so you've got to be able to differentiate those two things so getting back to how we get over these breakups is recognizing why were we really there to begin with you know could this actually work the next thing is you know I'm a huge believer that a lot of times a breakup is a blessing in disguise even if there is a chance that you two can work together or this is the one for you you may have needed this time to re-evaluate and get things in order something is obviously wrong even if you it may be something as deep as because I've seen situations where everything was going amazingly well on the surface and the person broke up with them let's say the woman lets go of the man so to the man that's really confusing but what it was is that that woman she had not healed from her past relationships and this relationship being so good was scaring her and what happens is the the better you are the scarier it becomes for her she's looking for something to be wrong she has to validate her fear somehow wow when she can't find it she'll either sabotage the relationship or she'll run from it So to that man it may seem like this is so unfair which yeah it sucks but if this woman didn't break up with you now you were inevitably gonna face this same ending but at a worse time yeah all right this is still best that is happening now at least if she can go do what she needs to do there's a chance for this to come back around later but it's hard for us to see it in the moment so I think just really we also have to focus on our healing whenever a breakup happens the mistake we make is that we think it's about healing from the breakup no it's healing from everything you've been through you've probably been sleeping under the rug your childhood trauma for years maybe the last two three relationships whatever it is so and and not healing from those things is contributing to your struggle to get past this breakup and contributing to why you even chose this person to begin with I'm a huge believer that if you haven't healed you are 90 likely to choose the wrong person yeah it's just too difficult to pick that person that you truly love and can truly love you and accept that level of vulnerability when you have still not resolved your past traumas and past hurts yeah so to me that's the next big thing is just focus on your healing process because in that process you will also be able to see more clearly if this is really for you or not like walking around unhealed is like walking around with broken glasses you you can't see straight no matter how hard you try but healing will clear up your vision really really fast and now it'd be like oh wait a minute I didn't belong there yeah you know thank God the broke breakup happened you know now I'm in a better place I move forward so to me I think and I would say in addition to those things is just have an accountability partner whether that's friend coach therapist someone that can help keep you in check help remind you what you need to do someone that you know you have to talk to and update what's going on so you feel like okay I don't want to come back so I'm saying I'm doing the same thing over and over again it doesn't guarantee success but it helps it helps move the needle some so I would highly encourage that that one mindset you spoke about that that changes everything and it hit me today I was just thinking if we were just able in a moment to recognize that something painful now was going to be good for us in five years time that would change so many things in our life yes but we're so poor at dealing with current pain yeah even if it means future joy that we just can't accept that I have to go through this like in everything right like knowing that someone breaking up with you just saved you 10 years of a wasted life is so much more than knowing you're gonna have to go through a few months of pain and 10 months of pain maybe it's a bit longer maybe it's two three years but we just have to get our head around that that sometimes the best things that happen to you are protecting more of your life than the pain that they're causing you need the Peace of knowing I did what I needed to do that's it yeah because anytime you feel like well maybe I could have done this but I could have done that leaves the door open for doubt do it well exactly so it's like and that's why I'm such a big believer in you know there's people who say well once they're done they're done they'll just move on and I'm like no no Express Yourself get everything off your chest because you don't need anything to linger and you questioning well what if I did this different no make sure speak your full piece and now you can say all right I did what I had to do it is what it is I move forward and I mean it makes it easier it may not make it a hundred percent you know not an issue whatsoever but it's gonna be easier and also also for me that's why like my relationship with God is so important because that's where I find my peace in dealing with a situation that doesn't work out the way I want to I always tell myself okay if this isn't working out God has something better for me you know if this is happening right now there's a purpose because I know if I followed his guidance throughout this process there's no need for me to question why is this the current outcome there's a reason for this and I've been through these things enough times to see as you mentioned the reward is going to come it may come next week it may come years from now it will come and I'll be able to see how it all connected yeah Stefan it's been incredible talking to you man this has been such a great back-to-back flowing conversation uh we end every on purpose episode with the final five which is like a rapid fire which means every question has to be answered with one word to one sentence maximum okay so here are your final five the first question is what's the best relationship advice you've ever received or heard or given it is to love fully lovefully and be yourself because as I said earlier that's how you will expose quicker who is for you and who isn't for you second question what is the worst relationship advice you've ever heard or received get under someone to get over someone [Laughter] uh question number three uh how would you defin	mean a friend who goes to me Jay we never fight I'm like how long have you been together because I don't I don't know anyone who never fights I get that no one has to get to like yeah the heights of fights yeah I did that I did that it doesn't have to be a heated fight but I don't know anyone who doesn't disagree there you go all right right I think that's important for people to understand yeah there's a difference yes you have some individuals out there that'll say arguing is normal it's healthy and to me it's like listen if we're talking about arguing where we're now Crossing disrespectful lines negative lines you know the way that we the tone we take with each other all these things that's not healthy yes it may happen you should be prepared for that but it does let's not normalize it just gonna keep doing this and it's it is what it is but you're right to to be with each other long enough and never have a disagreement that's extremely rare okay extremely rare and I do think that again as you mentioned we have to be ready for those moments we have to understand and going back to how we find that balance especially as men and even for women it's recognizing so for example if my partner is in a very heated moment let's say she's in her masculine right now all right she's	5	4	7	I mean a friend who goes to me Jay we never fight I'm like how long have you been together because I don't I don't know anyone who never fights I get that no one has to get to like yeah the heights of fights yeah I did that I did that it doesn't have to be a heated fight but I don't know anyone who doesn't disagree	you're right to to be with each other long enough and never have a disagreement that's extremely rare okay extremely rare and I do think that again as you mentioned we have to be ready for those moments we have to understand and going back to how we find that balance especially as men and even for women it's recognizing so for example if my partner is in a very heated moment let's say she's in her masculine right now all right she's	2,-1,4	6,-2,5	2	-1	4	6	-2	5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPQBcb9wf8Q	4,056	mPQBcb9wf8Q	2023-03-27 00:00:00	you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you're wasting your time the best-selling author and host the number one Health and Wellness podcast on purpose with Jay Shetty what are the signs that someone deeply loves you because I feel like we live in this world where we're always wondering do they love me do they like me do they really like me are they really into me how do you know when you deeply love someone and when someone deeply loves you how do you even know so I'm gonna start with an answer that people probably won't expect to me the first key is do you truly love them because look at it like this to me a lot of people get caught up in infatuation um they have unhealthy attachments they have different motivations to why they decided this is the person that I want and that can make them feel like they're in love but to me true love flows both ways it's not a one-sided thing so when you can say I I'm not into them like that if we look deep into that situation I can almost guarantee what we'll find is infatuation attachment something else but when you can say no I feel it too I'm deeply in love with them I think that's your first key because without that nothing else matters because a lot of people are choosing Partners based off of what they love me so much so I assume it's safe here and this is a good choice to make but the safe choice is usually the wrong choice and a lot of these people select this individual thinking everything's going to be okay but because you're not really into them you can never be what they need and they were never truly what you needed which is why you never even got to that level with them so to choose them without first evaluating do you truly love them would not be wise yeah that's that's a great question and I think people struggle with that question too because I think we think of love as so many different things wrapped into one for example I could think I love someone because of how they treat me I could think I love someone because they have one quality that I really wish I had or I could love someone because I think that they're out of my league and they give me a bit of attention yeah and so what we think is love is so complex and so wide that we never stop to ask ourselves like what does love mean like what's the definition of love like how do I Define love so how do you define love and how do you encourage other people to create their definitions of Love well for me first off is always God is love and then when we take it from there love is about kindness compassion patience understanding a willingness to be selfless important to that individual but I think what's also important for people to understand is when we're trying to apply it to romantic relationships we have to understand that there's other ingredients that are necessary before we can move forward so you could love someone dearly but if they are not emotionally ready because maybe they haven't healed from their past maybe there's still some things that need to work out in their life then it wouldn't be time to move forward in a relationship with them and we have this bad habit of the minute we feel like there's love there we want to move forward exactly and as you mentioned we can get caught up sometimes in but we love them because of what they do for us but what are you prepared to do for them love is about giving all right so we have to ask ourselves okay do we know what their needs are are we willing to fulfill those needs because if not maybe this wasn't love maybe it just felt good in the moment maybe you got caught up in the hype and that's okay it happens to almost all of us if not all of us at some point in life but we have to just be real very clear with ourselves about what's really driving the intention right now but I think all those things I mentioned is what encompasses love of and that's like the foundation of it and then from there we have to look at some other things to see how we can move forward so many times like you you convince yourself something's love and what I find really interesting is that so many people fall in love too fast and no one wants to go for the slow patient understanding love which is what love requires you just said love is kind love is patient love is understanding those things take time I think those things take time to nurture and to to make sure that we're doing it correctly for each other so it's about learning each other's Love Languages and how we make it work in within that Dynamic I think also because so many people are not used to dealing with emotions at on that level being that vulnerable people mishandle it all right so it takes time for us to get to a place so we understand how to manage this and work through this however I think that I'm a huge believer in connection and I believe connection is like your spirit recognizing its match and it's very instant when you speak to couples who said they experience a connection they'll tell you first conversation first time meeting first date first week it was pretty fast so to me the the recognizing of something deeper being here can happen very quickly but how we now cultivate that and how we move forward is where we need to take our time and make sure we're not rushing and overlooking certain important issues that need to be discussed and addressed first to me it's the understanding of chemistry versus compatibility and the idea that there needs to be a spark there needs to be a connection that I feel with someone like you're saying on a deeper level but I find that I find that most people are not Adept and knowing whether the connection they feel with someone is deeper or physical yeah like I would say that it's easy to it you can often feel a spark with if you meet a lot of people you can feel a spot with a lot of people but that doesn't mean that they're the right person to build a relationship absolutely right yes so it's connection to me is a very rare occurrence right yes so I feel that people who've actually experienced it they can tell you maybe once in their life if you're lucky two times maybe all right but it's not this thing that happens with everybody whereas chemistry uh feeling of spark these things can happen with a lot of different people yeah so I do think there's there's this education that's needed to understand how we differentiate these things so that we don't confuse them because I see a lot of people take that chemistry and think oh this is it this is the one it's like but you had chemistry with the last five people why is this one the one and not them so I do think we have to be careful with that yeah I think so so we're on the same page there's three things there's connection on the deeper level there's chemistry which is like the spark on a more superficial level and then there's compatibility which is like what makes get lost and I can relate to that with my wife I definitely felt so I I'm one of those people who I kind of knew from the first few moments when I met my wife before she was my wife was like I was like yeah this is my person like I felt that way yeah for sure I felt that connection and there was chemistry there too but it had to be turned into compatibility in order to create a long lasting relationship we've been together for 10 years we're still learning building going through everything but that was a big part of it so that I can get behind is do you see it that way too or is there something different in so how do you see it believe it or not I used to make compatibility the least important but that was because I was looking at it the wrong way once I kind of looked at the definition again and compatibility is about two people coexisting in harmony yeah then I was like okay no you you have to have that I just I got caught up more so in like let's say a dating site says okay we're gonna decide who's compatible so I view compatible as like an on the paper it looks good it's supposed to match but you can have a lot of people who are supposed to be compatible and it doesn't work absolutely so I think that it's compatibility is that add-on once we have the connection and the chemistry now we have to create that Harmony which is the compatibility yes I agree with you and and it is interesting how that word compatibility is thrown around and you're so right that compatibility on paper doesn't mean compatibility in real life exactly and to me compatibility really has another word inside of it which is like adaptability and that deeper understanding of an individual where you know how much you're willing to adapt around certain parts of the relationship but we'll get to that I think a lot of people like you know and and that's where we got into this conversation around what is slow a lot of people are waiting to feel like is this person wasting my time are they the one and so they don't have a deeper connection maybe they had that spark of chemistry and now that's kind of subsided how do you know if someone's wasting your time how do you know if you're letting yourself be used or wasted in that way so to me again I think it always starts with self and you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you because just use an example let's say you're a woman and the only reason why you're holding on to this guy is because he's a nice guy you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you figure let me try to make it work you're wasting your time this is where you're setting yourself up for disaster every single time so if it's not born out of a true connection love a genuine desire you really like this individual of course there's always things we have to work through but is the foundation strong enough for us to say okay we can make something special here and I think once we are honest with ourselves that kind of helps answer the question because sometimes we get so caught up trying to animal lies the other individual that is like we get in our heads and now we're missing the mark on what's really important here and we can't always say for sure what's going on with them I will say that in general if this person isn't willing to talk about things they're wasting your time if they're not willing to address or correct things that have been talked about they're wasting your time if you guys aren't on the same page about what you want and where you want to go in life wasting time so there are some things I think we can just look at and say listen this is pointless here but a lot of times and I have to say this especially for women women's intuition is extremely powerful I'm a huge believer in it and I feel like women know very early this isn't it but they rationalize reasons to convince themselves to give this man a chance and this again is a waste of time because it just doesn't work I've seen people turn what should have been maybe a couple weeks of dating into years of being married to someone they were not happy with all because they did not listen to themselves from the beginning they knew what it was but they just could not accept it for what it was yeah and I love that point on intuition it's almost like when a relationship finally ends a lot of us think to ourselves I knew they weren't right yeah like I knew it I knew that they weren't the one but you just didn't listen to that part of yourself yes so so let's break it down for people let's help people out we started talking about three very important words connection which you defined chemistry which we've defined in compatibility which we've defined how do people know the difference between connection and chemistry when they meet someone because I find that the science shows that you're experiencing dopamine and cortisol at the same times you're experiencing the reward chemical and stress chemical at the same time which gives you that chemistry feeling which is the feeling of butterflies in your stomach or like do they like me are they into me what should I wear that kind of feeling but then you're talking about a deeper connection how do you hear the difference because I think a lot of us just get swept up in the feeling of I'm So Into that person they're so into me how do you know so I think one is are you even being yourself or can you be yourself with this individual if if you're presenting your representative then this is not a real connection this is them falling for that person that you're presenting but that's not real so to me you have you should be already being yourself but with that person you have a connection with it's a more natural flow we don't have to force it we just feel so much more comfortable around them I think in addition to that is when you when you find yourself all caught up in the moment and caught up in that chemistry again you have to ask yourself what am I really attaching myself to what about what do I really like about this individual what I find is that when it's really about chemistry we're still on the surface you don't really know about them yet you just know you guys had a good time maybe you had fun at this event you guys were able to talk about a lot of different things which is great which is gonna also be important if there is a connection however do you even know what college did they want do you know what kind of Life they want to live you know are you guys really on the same page I think connection is our paths align our purpose is align so for us to align we have to have a deeper understanding of where we're headed and can we head there together so so that's why I think though you may feel it or you may feel like you're feeling it you have to do your due diligence to dig deeper to find out okay is this just I got caught up on the surface or there is something real here yeah and I think once we ask enough questions because I think that's the other big problem we have this experience where we feel this chemistry we're so excited and now we're afraid to ask questions because we don't want to blow up the fantasy yes you know what I'm saying we're just like no no I want to keep believing this is great so let me not ask anything let me not run this person away let me not rock the boat but that's going to be what tells us if this is real or not yes I think you're I think you've hit on something there like we're so scared of losing someone that we're okay with not asking important questions and discovering important truths that actually define whether this relationship is going to last absolutely and that is ultimately going back to your point earlier that is ultimately you not being yourself right you're losing yourself scared that you're going to lose the other person so you're okay with not being yourself do you think it's ever okay this is a funny question I think but I have to ask you because I think it's a healthy discussion do you think it's ever okay to present different sides of yourself in order to attract someone or do you think that you're ultimately setting yourself up for failure in a relationship almost like I think a lot of people they may not become someone completely different but I think a lot of people are like oh I'm gonna show my smart side because it will attract this person or I'm gonna show my this side because they're like that are you saying any of that kind of molding is unhealthy or do you think there's room for that I think anything that is not sustainable is unhealthy so look at it as if I'm a man and I'm meeting this woman I want to impress her so I'm like okay I'm gonna try to spend all my money take a nice five-star restaurant all these things but deep inside I prefer a more simple lifestyle you know I don't like all that extra stuff okay that's horrible that's a sale for disaster that's unhealthy because you can't sustain what you're presenting to that individual that's gonna draw them in so whatever it is another like common example is you'll have women who love to communicate they want to be able to talk to you every single day but because they're afraid of coming off a certain kind of way they'll hold back on their communication so now they'll make it seem like they're okay with talking every now and then we don't always have to text and then this guy falls for that he falls for this low standard I won't call low standard but not having such a high expectation of him when it comes to communication then he finally gets with the woman her true self is going to come out at some point no one can suppress their true self forever it comes out and now it's like what is this I did not sign up for this now we're fighting now we're stressed because you want him to call you more he was used to you not being worried about it so much that's why it's going to always not work out so it's extremely unhealthy unless we're presenting a side of us that is truly us and we can sustain it you've hit on something again that that at the beginning of relationships we often display unrealistic standards and we set those yes and then when things shift and now you're back in reality again the other person's like but wait a minute I thought you were really into me and I even went through that with my wife when we first met I was able to spend pretty much every day with her because I didn't have a job and so I was looking for work I was applying I would go see her at her College every day and I would spend the day with her and I'd be in the library applying for jobs while she was studying yeah and I could see it every day and I think I saw every day potentially for like six months maybe every single day five days a week at least and then when I got a job that wasn't the case anymore because I was at work now and I'd set this unrealistic expectation that we could see each other all the time and even in the beginning I would see her all the time because I'd spend time with her family but we wouldn't spend time with my family because I hadn't told my family yet and so now that my family knew we were trying to split the time and all of a sudden it was like wait a minute we used to spend time at my house and so even in little things like that it took a bit of adapting because I'd set a false standard in our relationship and then thankfully my wife was adapting and she understood and she got it and it was fine but I think for so many people you set unrealistic expectations in who you are yes and that's hard to come back from absolutely yeah and that's why it's so important for us to know who we are so that we can present the real from the jump you know because again A lot of times people you know this idea that we're always changing yes I do think we're always evolving but some of the big shifts that you see are is not because that's just the way life is it's because you did take the time to figure yourself out first and then you got with this person and now you want them to adjust now thank God for you she was able to adjust but there's a lot of people that they can't handle that yeah and now everything falls apart from there so that's why yeah we have to be very careful with what we're presenting from the beginning yeah it's I I agree with you on that that we think people change but actually they just start to understand themselves exactly they went from being completely unconscious about who they were you met an unconscious version of a person yeah and now you think they're changing but they just became conscious of who they are absolutely and but the thing is Stefan as you know like Society doesn't encourage that time of getting to know yourself right when you're young you're not trained in how to think about who you want to be you're trained in thinking about what you want to I do it's about your job it's about your career you're not thinking about who you are as a human being or as a person so how do we in this Society where understanding who you are is not clear it's not encouraged where where does one start or where have you kind of found great insights in trying to discover who we are I would love to see more parents encouraging their children to explore how they're feeling about who they are like what I have found is a lot of people who let's say I I had one client where she wanted to be an actress when she was a little kid uh but parents kind of push in a different direction now she's like a social worker but her desire is still to be an actress like the things that they they wanted to do they they want to do as an adult now you can find back in their childhood in a lot of cases so I feel like too many people have stifled their children's growth in certain areas with limited ideas of well this can't make money or this wouldn't be a good look for the family or whatever the case may be it's like no let them walk in it and see for themselves if that's really where they belong outside of that for me I think the big thing is getting in tune spiritually I'm just a huge believer in that I feel like me finding myself was when I went into what I call my Wilderness period I kind of just shut everything off that I was doing because I used to be all over having fun partying all these different things things and then God kind of slapped me upside my head and I had to like really pull away from everything and go deeper from within and it felt like a process of breaking me down to build me right back up and that's when I start to see things clearer because what I realized is the world is filled with distractions and it's the distractions why we can't see ourselves for who we really are if we simply shut off the distractions long enough you will learn a lot so even if someone just took a year off don't worry you know limit the TV you're watching limit the music you're listening to limit all the internet stuff just really go deeper within yourself spend more time alone spend more time you know thinking and processing you will learn a lot because again a lot of it is it isn't a problem of we don't know ourselves we are not aware and we're not willing to accept and once we allow ourselves to do those two things become aware and then accept it we become free yeah I I mean I agree with you I think that I've always been a big proponent of solitude to understand who you are because as soon as you have another person you now have another person's opinions you have to filter yes as soon as you have another person in front of you you have another person's judgments to filter and so now you can't even say what you truly think about something because you're constantly thinking what does that person think about me and my beliefs and so understanding your beliefs in solitude allows you to be really clear about what your values and beliefs are and and that's what it's there for I think when people get into if we switch to compatibility again the idea we talked about the difference between connection and chemistry but compatibility is really interesting because a lot of people believe that relationships should be hard and they require hard work and a lot of people believe relationships should be easy and everything should just flow where have you kind of discovered your lens on that Spectrum so okay there's a there's a couple ways to look at it I think that most relationships and I'll even be more specific most relations that involve connection and true love are typically hard not because relationships have to be hard but because most people have been hurt by something in their life are holding on to past traumas haven't resolved it once they meet this individual that they feel so strongly about it is scary this is where things get difficult it's the difficultness in how do I handle this how do I manage this you'll have people feel like they're losing themselves but they're not losing themselves their true self is coming out and it's it's the self that's been hiding behind that wall they've been using for quote-unquote protection but I always say the same module to protect you the same as blocking your blessings so now they're being pulled from behind it it's it's makes them feel some kind of way and again people start to mishandle things you also have situations where people are getting bad advice like I'm gonna give one example um there's this uh book called The Game by Neil Strauss I don't know if you ever read that book yeah it was great Neil you know you you answer that world to pick up artistry we learned it and he was great with the women but then once he found that woman that he fell in love with all that stuff doesn't work anymore so you have a lot of men being taught how to handle women in general but they don't understand that's not how you handle the woman you truly love and so now again you have individuals who though they are truly in love with this person they constantly mishandle it with bad Guidance with fear and all these things this is what makes it hard and and I even think that a lot of times the people who are supposed to be together sometimes will have the hardest time getting together but I believe that once we're able to conquer that part of it and actually come together it's not hard yes it takes work I believe we have to be conscious and mindful of how we treat our partners how we show up being willing to listen but I think it's so much easier to do those things with someone you have a connection with and you're truly in love with it's gonna always feel ten times harder when you're in the wrong relationship and I would argue the vast majority of people are in the wrong relationship that's why they're seeing it be so difficult and when you see this whole it's easy typically it's easy because you have two people who are not digging deeper they're they're trying to write out that chemistry we talked about earlier for as long as possible all right so yeah it seems like it's great it's easy no issues but it doesn't really work like that because they're just not facing the reality of the situation so I think we we have to understand that there is going to be some bumps in the road because of all the things that people have been through but once we're able to come together and we know this is our partner this is who we want to share our life with it can get so much better yeah and do you do you think that people have just been given generally the wrong education on how to deal with another person in their life 100 yeah because unfortunately a lot of individuals are giving advice from a bit or hurt place there and and they're trying to disguise it as I'm just looking out for you no you you have inhaled and you cannot properly guide them in a positive and loving Manner and I think that a lot of people you know I always say it's funny how we'll spend a lot of time getting educated for the for the sake of our careers and business but we don't do the same for relationships and yet relationships arguably are even more important than that career business and even if it's not a romantic relationship just relationships in general your ability to coexist with others connect with others is extremely important if you want that business to succeed you have to learn how to establish business relationships there's no way around it so we have to learn how to talk to people listen to people you know what I'm saying and just make make things work when we come together with other individuals so I definitely think that we're just lacking in a lot of education and again too many because there's so many voices on the internet now there's just so much bad advice being given and and the individuals giving it they may be giving like let's say 80 of the advice is accurate but it's that 20 that's completely off that can derail everything and that's the stuff that people are gravitating to and this is causing a lot of problems can you give us some example of some of the like not specific people or anything like that I just mean like could you give example of bad advice and what about it is bad or unhealthy for people to try and put into practice okay so one thing I heard recently was an individual told uh said some of the best advice you can give to men is to not fall in love you know basically just find a woman you want to be with and kind of keep it there the reason why I view that as horrible advice is because you sit down with any man who's lived enough life they will all be able to say there's been at least one time they fail deeply for a woman all right the problem isn't falling deep before a woman the problem is we don't know how to handle it once we get there the problem is because we're not accustomed to handling and processing our emotions a certain kind of way and being this vulnerable we don't understand what's going to be required of us in that moment we also kind of lose sight of because I'm a big believer in masculine and feminine energy and I believe that if she was attracted to you because of that masculine energy that you give off and now you become this emotional wreck because you don't know how to handle all these feelings you have for her well you start to become less attractive to her and it's not that it's not fixable it's fixable but again a lack of understanding and awareness derails the situation so rather than telling men don't fall in love because it's inevitable let's teach them how we walk in love how we make what I call Loving in your masculine how you maintain that energy and still be able to pour into that woman in a way that allows relationship to flourish yeah and how does that work when I think obviously a lot of people in that example that you're giving if if the person is attracted to someone because of their masculine energy but at the same time they want them to be empathetic and compassionate and kind which are generally seen as more feminine energy how does that person balance the two or is that is that not how you're explaining is that no it's about balance so we have to understand we all have masculine and feminine of course within us I'm a Believer in one must be your dominant energy the other is the one you tap into when necessary so as a man you can walk in your masculine and in those moments tap into those things but you can't just stay there all the time all right you can't just become this needy emotional God that's not going to work in the vast majority of cases and so what happens is there's this messaging that's being thrown out there that women don't like good guys I don't believe that's what it is I believe that women become less attracted when you don't know how to exude and walk in your masculine energy it's and and we're hiding behind the label of good guy you can be a good guy and still exude masculine energy and that's the thing and we also think that oh they like bad boys no if you look deeper it's really the masculine energy that that quote-unquote bad boy exudes but what they desire is a mixture of both the same way that we would want a mixture of both we would want a loving sweet woman family woman whatever or and if you're a guy who wants a mask and woman cool but you don't want her to be just that you know you want her to have the ability to tap into that other side when necessary I think we all desire that balance in our partner and I think it's healthy and if we just learn how to maintain it and how to nurture it we would see greater success in relationships yeah what are some of the skills with with mastering that energy that you think we're missing out on and balancing that energy and knowing when to be which and because the reason why it's hard is I think we live in a binary world right like you feel like you have to choose like you're either a bad boy or you're a good girl you are a doer or you're a thinker you're uh winner or you're a loser right like we think like that and some people go okay you need to be masculine or I can be feminine and I I definitely relate to what you were saying like I believe that there is a lot about me that is massively masculine in energy using that language and terminology my drive my ambition how I work my strategic mind and at the same time I consider myself to have a lot of great feminine energy and qualities where it comes to like empowering others and nurturing and the ability to hold deep compassionate space and be empathetic which are all powerful qualities for for everyone right Beyond gender they're powerful qualities and I appreciate and it's taken a long time to know when to be which and it's still and I still make mistakes right there's still sometimes like I should have been more assertive I should have been more affectionate so we live in a world that finds it hard to hold two opposing ideas at the same time yeah we don't know how to do that in any sphere of life let alone within ourselves so what are some of the skills that we can learn in order to nurture both those energies in a healthy way inside of ourselves so I think one it's going to require a lot of if you're already in a relationship it's going to boil down to a lot of transparency and communication you know her if you're that man trying to understand that woman and when you can walk in those two energies her being willing to be honest and open about you know what this was too much over here or I needed some of this over here and in time you're going to become more aware and understanding it's going to be like second nature to you you won't have to overthink it and I think part of it is not overthinking it it's kind of like being ourselves but understanding that we have to learn when this is doing too much and vice versa I also think that in reality for a lot of men especially uh when we're talking about relationships and kind of losing that masculine energy the the underlying issue is fear all right when we become so afraid of losing this woman we lose ourselves and so a lot of men now fall into this very feminine needy space because they're just afraid we have to learn that listen like to me I feel if your partner thinks you're never gonna walk away from them no matter what they do you've lost that's that's a horrible place to be in we have to get to a place where we both understand that as long as we show up the way that we need to show up for each other we have each other's back we will be here but neither of us will tolerate an unhealthy relationship and someone who blatantly does not want to work on making this better I would want my the woman I'm with to feel that way and I need to feel that way once we understand that and you have the confidence of I can walk away if I have to that shifts your energy right there in itself and now you don't find yourself falling into that place where again you start to look a lot more unattractive or for some men they become yes men in their relationships thinking that makes her happy that's turning her off she doesn't want you to be her yes man she wants you to stand up for yourself sometimes give your opinion give your perspective she wants to be able to you know if anything be able to have discussions with you about these things not just you say whatever you want whatever you want whatever you want over time it becomes a problem so I think that once we conquer that fear once we create a space where we can talk about these moments and not feel some kind of way I think sometimes men are not they struggle with taking the criticism from their partner men and women we we all do when we feel when we have actual feelings for someone you know we don't care about you it's not as big of a deal but we're emotionally invested we're more sensitive to it but we have to understand that these criticisms are for the sake of making things better and strengthening this relationship so once we can get to that place it's going to be so much easier to grow in it and then I think it's just a matter of understanding that it's this balance isn't just for your relationship so look at it like from a sports perspective if I'm on a basketball team there may be moments where I need to take the lead and recognize all right everyone else is down someone needs to step up this is my moment and then there's other moments where I realize okay let's say we already have a team captain let me show them that I can follow serve do what needs to be done so that the team can win it's just becoming aware of what the moment requires you know and again I think the more in tune we get the more in tune we get with ourselves and the more in tune we get with our partner the easier it becomes to find that balance that's the challenge right the challenge is just how much patience we have with ourselves and others to realize that you walked into an imbalance unbalanced situation and now it's like how much patience how much time are we going to give it to get to that because the challenge is I think we walk into a situation thinking it's perfect whereas we should be walking into a relationship knowing it's imperfect absolutely and we're going to learn and figure it out together and I think that's what sets us up for failure is because we walk into it going it's perfect and deep down we know it isn't but somehow we gloss over it whereas I find when I know we're gonna fight when I know we're gonna argue and I know there's going to be disagreements that sets me up to develop the skills I need in order to navigate those things yes but if I assume like oh we're never gonna fight and I always get that right we always meet someone who goes to I mean a friend who goes to me Jay we never fight I'm like how long have you been together because I don't I don't know anyone who never fights I get that no one has to get to like yeah the heights of fights yeah I did that I did that it doesn't have to be a heated fight but I don't know anyone who doesn't disagree there you go all right right I think that's important for people to understand yeah there's a difference yes you have some individuals out there that'll say arguing is normal it's healthy and to me it's like listen if we're talking about arguing where we're now Crossing disrespectful lines negative lines you know the way that we the tone we take with each other all these things that's not healthy yes it may happen you should be prepared for that but it does let's not normalize it just gonna keep doing this and it's it is what it is but you're right to to be with each other long enough and never have a disagreement that's extremely rare okay extremely rare and I do think that again as you mentioned we have to be ready for those moments we have to understand and going back to how we find that balance especially as men and even for women it's recognizing so for example if my partner is in a very heated moment let's say she's in her masculine right now all right she's getting rough well meeting her with more masculine is probably going to only make things worse yeah this is the time for me to be compassionate go to her hold her calm her down bring her peace in that moment you see because it we need to balance each other out same thing on the flip side if I'm all heated and I'm I'm extra passionate and then my woman now comes with that same energy that's it now where button has this is her moment to say no let me now be the one to soften the moment up bring that Sweetness in there and everybody calms down so it's learning how to feed off of each other and recognize okay they're over here let me bring it back over here and now we can work from that point and we're both good the problem is that we all see compassion and sweetness and kindness in those moments as a weakness we don't want to be that person because we see that as losing we see that as giving in we see that as us losing our power and strength in a relationship if we become the comforter or if we become the carer right like that's that's a perception that is the perception and we have to change that that is the power position so who is more powerful the person that lets the energy dictate them how they're going to react or the person that brings the energy and dictates how they're going to make this situation play out so if I'm coming in to calm it down and being all sweet because I'm trying to bring peace here I'm in the power position I'm not losing anything I'm gonna gain more peace and happiness and Harmony if I succeed in what I'm trying to do so we have to get out of that mindset of this makes us weaker and that is the big key of it that's a big problem that for a lot of women who struggle with their feminine energy that's a big issue where they feel that being feminine is weakness it's what got them taken advantage of and got them hurt but I always say it's not the feminine energy that's the problem it's who you give it to do they respect it did they honor it you know it's the same thing as a man does she respect your masculine if she doesn't then that might just be a sign you're with the wrong person but don't stop being that guy because the woman who's best for you is going to need that in those moments that that's exactly what it is is that when people have been their best selves for the wrong person that person brings out the worst in them yes right like when someone's been their best loving kindness self but someone took advantage of it that person now thinks next time I've got to be aggressive I've got to be you know powerful I've got to be strong in this way and I feel like that's kind of what most people are dealing with we know that is that you're just dealing with a wounded version of someone yes not a healed version of someone but I think people struggle to trust again and again especially when they see the same patterns in the person they're weird and I guess the question is why do we keep making the same mistakes because I feel like a lot of us keep dating the same people yeah and there's a part of us that also just keeps closing off or being more wounded it's almost like if you cut yourself you now walk around with your hand over that you don't want to get cut again and then if you lead it off and it gets cut even deeper now you're even more conscious of that and so I find that people are doing that where they're closing their heart more and more because it's been so misused and abused and I understand that I understand people don't want to be abused and misused but I guess the question is how do people find people that they know respect them so that they can be their best version or be a better version of themselves so you know you can't drive out Darkness with more Darkness you can't expose someone who's gonna hurt you by being someone who's closed off and holding back yourself we have it's kind of what we were just talking about we have to look at being vulnerable loving and open as not just well I'm setting myself to be hurt no it's how you expose people faster if I come with that energy and you cannot respect it match it then I know you don't belong here but if I hold back I give you a free pass to hold back so now we have two individuals who are hiding behind their walls because it's comfortable there but you can't really see what's what do we really have in front of us those walls are blinding you and you can't properly evaluate the situation so one we we got to get to a place of healing from our past so that we're not just walking around with the hand over the cut no you you gotta let the cup breathe you gotta let it heal all right holding on put your hand on there is delaying the process and like you said all that's gonna happen is when you finally take your hand off but you're taking it off with the wrong person and you haven't learned see what I want people to realize is your actions weren't the problem meaning you being loving sweet kind compassionate wasn't the problem it was the person separate those two things that you don't stop doing the good things now granted are there levels to this to where we have to learn again if I'm thinking about a man if you got so deeply emotional to where you kind of lost your your masculine energy and you became very needy okay you can say all right I need to continue to be loving but I know I have to learn how to draw a line I have to learn how not to cross that moment and again you only crossed it because you were unhealthy to begin with you only cross it because you were afraid to begin with once you get to that place where you're healthy and confident you won't find yourself Crossing that line anymore yeah you won't tolerate certain things anymore so we have to heal we have to be confident and we have to let our light shine so that we can expose what's in front of us easier that's a brilliant answer I I love the differentiation between how sharing your light is not the problem the person's the problem because we yeah we start to doubt whether being a good person a loving person is actually what wins in the world yeah and the truth is that it does win but it has to win with someone who can receive it and absolutely hold that space with you and share that space with you and I find that a lot of people keep giving that energy to the wrong person because we feel we can make them better right like there's this feeling of like I can change this person I can make them better I can heal them there's some of us want to fix people yeah and that means we assume the person we're with is broken and I think this is such a subconscious thing like if you're always critiquing if you're always picking at stuff with your partner chances are you don't think they're great like just now you think there's some issues with them when you think that you can fix them and they're broken tell us about that angle where now we're almost we've talked about being the loving and kind person but sometimes we're being the person that thinks we're loving and kind because we want to improve someone but that person doesn't want to improve one big problem is that what's really driving people to pick that individual is that by being the one that can upgrade you improve you I have more value here by having more value I have a false sense of security you have to appreciate me you're less likely to walk away you're less likely to cheat because you're lucky to have me I feel like I'm the prize here but those situations never really work because again you're choosing someone that is not capable of pouring into you the way you need you're basing this off of what you could do for them and that's not sustainable and you're choosing them because again you have more emotional control here what happens to so many people especially women it's something that I call the unhealthy love cycle of women where women in their first love experience outside of any childhood trauma may have experienced they're their most loving they're just out there they go all the way in but that typically happens at a younger age at an age where men are not mature enough to handle those kind of emotions that level of commitment so on and so forth so she gets hurt after she gets hurt her moment is saying to herself I will never let this happen to me again so now the woman starts to consciously or subconsciously choose men who are I don't want to say lower than hurt but essentially a man who does not take her there he's good enough to be with but I'm not that vulnerable with him he can't hurt me like that first love hurt me and so that Dynamic usually leads to picking that person I can fix I can make better who will appreciate and respect me but again it doesn't work out and many times you'll see these same situations the guy will move on to cheat on her not because and I have to say this because some women think yeah he's just being a man no not because he's a man but because you chose a man that you could never be the woman that he needed and he could never be the man that you needed once he kind of either gets what he needs from you to build himself up or the Smoke Clears from him being infatuated with you he starts to realize I'm not getting everything that I desire and now you building him up has brought him more attention from other women so now the the difference between what you're not giving him and what someone else is willing to give him becomes way clearer now the Temptation gets way stronger and he ends up doing something or she ends up cheating as well because he's safe but he doesn't fulfill her he doesn't satisfy her he he doesn't excite her in any kind of way and that's why I always said earlier like the safe choice is almost always the wrong choice but that is a function of people trying to choose these fix or uppers because they think it's going to give them some leverage there it's leverage that's it yeah it's leverage yeah how do you know when it's time to go like how do you know when it's like I feel like this is a common question where it's like how do you know when it's just I've tried everything we've tried together tried our best maybe we went to therapy maybe we got a coach or maybe you know maybe we didn't do those things how do I just know that I feel like I need to go but I'm scared of being alone yeah I'm I'm scared of dealing with the reality that I put in a lot of energy and I feel like you said this earlier but a lot of people stay in something for a lot longer than they should because they'd rather not be alone yes they'd rather not face reality they'd rather not lose two years of their life they'd rather lose two more thinking that this this should stay like how do you know when it's time to go let me first say this yes I think I think Society needs to change their thinking as far as Letting Go doesn't always mean it can't work out later it's just that it cannot work out under these circumstances all right because some people say well I feel like they're the one okay maybe they are but maybe the time is not right and it's letting go that will allow you both to do what needs to be done in your own personal lives that would allow you to come back together and have something way more amazing so that's number one thing to consider but outside of that it's when one if that person is unwilling to put in the work necessary it's time to go there's like so many times I'll I'll have a video go up about communication and someone will comment saying I've tried talking to him and he doesn't want to talk to me and in my head I'm like why are you still with them if he refuses to talk to you you've already tried there's nothing else to do but people will let it Linger on and continue why they can why they consistently complain or unhappy about this specific issue it's not gonna magically get better they're not gonna just change it just because all of a sudden they see oh it needs to change no if they're fighting it now they have no reason to change it and what people have to understand you know especially with this whole trying to fix people up healing and facing your traumas is one of the hardest things for people to do so if they already have you in their life they're essentially getting the incentive or the benefit of relationship without having to do the deeper work it's almost like if I'm at a job and the job says you need to have a master's degree to work here but we're going to hire you anyway and give you time to get that master's degree if getting that degree is super hard to you you're gonna drag that out as long as possible yeah you may never get the degree until they fire you when they fire you and you realize oh my gosh if I don't do this I'll never get this person back I'll never get this opportunity back now they might go and get it because it's very tough to walk down the path of the healing process so if they're not willing to work on it you guys have already discussed it and I think that's a big thing because there's a lot of relationships that end and the couples don't even know what the real issue was so the communication they'll say well we talked about no you guys argued you guys lashed out there wasn't a clear communication as to what the problem was what is expected how do we go about this if you've done that and I believe one of the most effective ways to do that is through a letter because I feel like verbal communication of deep issues and concerns they typically don't go well you know people get distracted they forget what they want to say the other person gets defensive they're not they're listening to rebuttal not to understand but when there's a letter involved it gives you time to get everything out you can you can evaluate your tone leave no stone unturned and now they have an opportunity to process it on their time to really take it in and then you guys can come together and discuss the letter and now it's so much easier to stay on point and get everything covered if we've done that and they're still unwilling or there's still no progress It's Time to Go yeah that's great that's great advice and I for me that's the biggest one it's like you can't make something last if only one person's working on it you can't keep hoping and waiting and wishing and and like you said that ending doesn't mean forever and often I found that two people need to grow individually to be able to grow collectively and we're forcing growing together so hard but we need space to grow and if you can't grow together chances are you need to grow apart in order to see whether you grow together again or grow for someone else and all of those options are okay but we put so much pressure on people to grow together that they grow apart yeah and actually if they chose to grow apart and grow separately they could come back together if they learn the lessons and I think that's a mistake too though sometimes people think I'm gonna go learn this lesson for this person I meet a lot of people they're like okay they broke up with me because I wasn't XYZ now I'm gonna go become XYZ to win them back yeah and I always find I'm just like well no you should go become XYZ if you think you were missing XYZ but not to win them back because you don't know what they're gonna do what's your take on people trying to win people back so I 100 agree with you like if we're trying to learn or grow it needs to be for the benefit of who we are and just whoever we deal with so was almost like if I was a bad Communicator in this relationship I shouldn't learn to better communicate for that person I need to better communicate for whoever I'm going to be with if you can't see it in that light then maybe you're looking at the wrong thing my thing is this I think it all depends on what the details of the situation was what led to the breakup what were you overlooking what was missing are these fixable issues because a lot of people are trying to win back someone where the issues are not resolved so it's like what's the point of going back we're just going to go in the same cycle all over again they're letting this idea of I miss them I don't want to be without them blind them from the fact that you two did not get along well or you two don't want the same things or YouTube just whatever it is maybe there's a lack of sexual satisfaction I don't know why I feel the need to mention that but it happens a lot of times you have to stay focused on what led to the end and can this be corrected if it can cool but as you mentioned listen correcting it does not guarantee you they're coming back and even if they will come back you don't know when they may need so you may have figured yourself out in six months they might need a year and I would argue if you guys are truly meant for each other and at the end of the year you need a year too you're just overlooking some things and you're rushing the process because you want to get back to them yeah it's I've never found a situation where it was truly only one person who had problems and the other person was squeaky clean no no you thought you were but you got some stuff too you needed to correct of course so I think we have to be honest with ourselves and just keep striving to be better and rather than focus on winning them back just become the best you because if you do and there's a true connection there the opportunity will present itself again and you too will be able to make something of it and the struggle is that when people finally make that decision to break up or let go the study showed that the parts of your brain that are activated in a breakup are the same as detoxing from cocaine right like you're literally trying to detox so you can have a craving yeah for someone that's bad for you yeah or also it says that the areas of the brain that are activated in a breakup are the areas that are the same with physical pain so if someone like punching the stomach the reason why we say like my heart feels broken is because it literally feels like something's broken yeah so when you're going through a breakup when you're feeling the craving to be with that person again studies show that eight over eighty percent of people are looking at what their exes are doing on social media right probably through a Finster account or whatever but you have to you have to know what are some of the healthiest tips that you've given to people and the people that you've worked with that have genuinely helped people move through a breaker the first thing is to ask yourself again why was I even there why am I holding on to this individual again I think sometimes we get so blinded by just the experience or our desire to have this person for whatever reason that we Overlook what was really missing or why this could not work anyway what you'll also find is and I'm sure there's probably a study on it where if you if they broke up with you you ever see a situation it happens on TV a lot where the person could be like okay I'm gonna break up with my partner they're planning on it they've been practicing in their head right it took them a couple weeks to muster up the strength they're about to do it and then the partner breaks up with them yeah now it's oh my gosh I gotta get them back yeah so it's like you just forgot this whole time that was your plan yeah it just gave you the past to do it but now because we don't like to be the one being let go of now we're fighting hard to get it back yeah so we have to really not fall into these little traps that happen to us as human beings our brains just playing tricks on us or something where we confuse these emotions for oh my gosh I must really love them or even like you said you go into that detox and because you miss I always tell people no matter how bad the relationship was there's always good moments so if you're trying to break free you can't just let your brain focus on the good moments you have to remind yourself why this doesn't work but if you keep focusing on the good you start to make yourself think oh because I missed this good moment I must miss them and there's this quote that says sometimes you're not missing the person you're missing the feeling so you've got to be able to differentiate those two things so getting back to how we get over these breakups is recognizing why were we really there to begin with you know could this actually work the next thing is you know I'm a huge believer that a lot of times a breakup is a blessing in disguise even if there is a chance that you two can work together or this is the one for you you may have needed this time to re-evaluate and get things in order something is obviously wrong even if you it may be something as deep as because I've seen situations where everything was going amazingly well on the surface and the person broke up with them let's say the woman lets go of the man so to the man that's really confusing but what it was is that that woman she had not healed from her past relationships and this relationship being so good was scaring her and what happens is the the better you are the scarier it becomes for her she's looking for something to be wrong she has to validate her fear somehow wow when she can't find it she'll either sabotage the relationship or she'll run from it So to that man it may seem like this is so unfair which yeah it sucks but if this woman didn't break up with you now you were inevitably gonna face this same ending but at a worse time yeah all right this is still best that is happening now at least if she can go do what she needs to do there's a chance for this to come back around later but it's hard for us to see it in the moment so I think just really we also have to focus on our healing whenever a breakup happens the mistake we make is that we think it's about healing from the breakup no it's healing from everything you've been through you've probably been sleeping under the rug your childhood trauma for years maybe the last two three relationships whatever it is so and and not healing from those things is contributing to your struggle to get past this breakup and contributing to why you even chose this person to begin with I'm a huge believer that if you haven't healed you are 90 likely to choose the wrong person yeah it's just too difficult to pick that person that you truly love and can truly love you and accept that level of vulnerability when you have still not resolved your past traumas and past hurts yeah so to me that's the next big thing is just focus on your healing process because in that process you will also be able to see more clearly if this is really for you or not like walking around unhealed is like walking around with broken glasses you you can't see straight no matter how hard you try but healing will clear up your vision really really fast and now it'd be like oh wait a minute I didn't belong there yeah you know thank God the broke breakup happened you know now I'm in a better place I move forward so to me I think and I would say in addition to those things is just have an accountability partner whether that's friend coach therapist someone that can help keep you in check help remind you what you need to do someone that you know you have to talk to and update what's going on so you feel like okay I don't want to come back so I'm saying I'm doing the same thing over and over again it doesn't guarantee success but it helps it helps move the needle some so I would highly encourage that that one mindset you spoke about that that changes everything and it hit me today I was just thinking if we were just able in a moment to recognize that something painful now was going to be good for us in five years time that would change so many things in our life yes but we're so poor at dealing with current pain yeah even if it means future joy that we just can't accept that I have to go through this like in everything right like knowing that someone breaking up with you just saved you 10 years of a wasted life is so much more than knowing you're gonna have to go through a few months of pain and 10 months of pain maybe it's a bit longer maybe it's two three years but we just have to get our head around that that sometimes the best things that happen to you are protecting more of your life than the pain that they're causing you need the Peace of knowing I did what I needed to do that's it yeah because anytime you feel like well maybe I could have done this but I could have done that leaves the door open for doubt do it well exactly so it's like and that's why I'm such a big believer in you know there's people who say well once they're done they're done they'll just move on and I'm like no no Express Yourself get everything off your chest because you don't need anything to linger and you questioning well what if I did this different no make sure speak your full piece and now you can say all right I did what I had to do it is what it is I move forward and I mean it makes it easier it may not make it a hundred percent you know not an issue whatsoever but it's gonna be easier and also also for me that's why like my relationship with God is so important because that's where I find my peace in dealing with a situation that doesn't work out the way I want to I always tell myself okay if this isn't working out God has something better for me you know if this is happening right now there's a purpose because I know if I followed his guidance throughout this process there's no need for me to question why is this the current outcome there's a reason for this and I've been through these things enough times to see as you mentioned the reward is going to come it may come next week it may come years from now it will come and I'll be able to see how it all connected yeah Stefan it's been incredible talking to you man this has been such a great back-to-back flowing conversation uh we end every on purpose episode with the final five which is like a rapid fire which means every question has to be answered with one word to one sentence maximum okay so here are your final five the first question is what's the best relationship advice you've ever received or heard or given it is to love fully lovefully and be yourself because as I said earlier that's how you will expose quicker who is for you and who isn't for you second question what is the worst relationship advice you've ever heard or received get under someone to get over someone [Laughter] uh question number three uh how would you defin	energy and dictates how they're going to make this situation play out so if I'm coming in to calm it down and being all sweet because I'm trying to bring peace here I'm in the power position I'm not losing anything I'm gonna gain more peace and happiness and Harmony if I succeed in what I'm trying to do so we have to get out of that mindset of this makes us weaker and that is the big key of it that's a big problem that for a lot of women who struggle with their feminine energy that's a big issue where they feel that being feminine is weakness it's what got them taken advantage of and got them hurt but I always say it's not the feminine energy that's the problem it's who you give it to do they respect it did they honor it you know it's the same thing as a man does she respect your masculine if she doesn't then that might just be a sign you're with the wrong person but don't stop being that guy because the woman who's best for you is going to need that in those moments that that's exactly what it is is that when people have been their best selves for the wrong person that person brings out the worst in them yes right like when someone's been their best loving kindness self but someone took advantage of it that person now thinks next time I've got to be	8	6	8	energy and dictates how they're going to make this situation play out so if I'm coming in to calm it down and being all sweet because I'm trying to bring peace here I'm in the power position I'm not losing anything I'm gonna gain more peace and happiness and Harmony if I succeed in what I'm trying to do	yes right like when someone's been their best loving kindness self but someone took advantage of it that person now thinks next time I've got to be	8,6,9	2,-3,1	8	6	9	2	-3	1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPQBcb9wf8Q	4,056	mPQBcb9wf8Q	2023-03-27 00:00:00	you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you're wasting your time the best-selling author and host the number one Health and Wellness podcast on purpose with Jay Shetty what are the signs that someone deeply loves you because I feel like we live in this world where we're always wondering do they love me do they like me do they really like me are they really into me how do you know when you deeply love someone and when someone deeply loves you how do you even know so I'm gonna start with an answer that people probably won't expect to me the first key is do you truly love them because look at it like this to me a lot of people get caught up in infatuation um they have unhealthy attachments they have different motivations to why they decided this is the person that I want and that can make them feel like they're in love but to me true love flows both ways it's not a one-sided thing so when you can say I I'm not into them like that if we look deep into that situation I can almost guarantee what we'll find is infatuation attachment something else but when you can say no I feel it too I'm deeply in love with them I think that's your first key because without that nothing else matters because a lot of people are choosing Partners based off of what they love me so much so I assume it's safe here and this is a good choice to make but the safe choice is usually the wrong choice and a lot of these people select this individual thinking everything's going to be okay but because you're not really into them you can never be what they need and they were never truly what you needed which is why you never even got to that level with them so to choose them without first evaluating do you truly love them would not be wise yeah that's that's a great question and I think people struggle with that question too because I think we think of love as so many different things wrapped into one for example I could think I love someone because of how they treat me I could think I love someone because they have one quality that I really wish I had or I could love someone because I think that they're out of my league and they give me a bit of attention yeah and so what we think is love is so complex and so wide that we never stop to ask ourselves like what does love mean like what's the definition of love like how do I Define love so how do you define love and how do you encourage other people to create their definitions of Love well for me first off is always God is love and then when we take it from there love is about kindness compassion patience understanding a willingness to be selfless important to that individual but I think what's also important for people to understand is when we're trying to apply it to romantic relationships we have to understand that there's other ingredients that are necessary before we can move forward so you could love someone dearly but if they are not emotionally ready because maybe they haven't healed from their past maybe there's still some things that need to work out in their life then it wouldn't be time to move forward in a relationship with them and we have this bad habit of the minute we feel like there's love there we want to move forward exactly and as you mentioned we can get caught up sometimes in but we love them because of what they do for us but what are you prepared to do for them love is about giving all right so we have to ask ourselves okay do we know what their needs are are we willing to fulfill those needs because if not maybe this wasn't love maybe it just felt good in the moment maybe you got caught up in the hype and that's okay it happens to almost all of us if not all of us at some point in life but we have to just be real very clear with ourselves about what's really driving the intention right now but I think all those things I mentioned is what encompasses love of and that's like the foundation of it and then from there we have to look at some other things to see how we can move forward so many times like you you convince yourself something's love and what I find really interesting is that so many people fall in love too fast and no one wants to go for the slow patient understanding love which is what love requires you just said love is kind love is patient love is understanding those things take time I think those things take time to nurture and to to make sure that we're doing it correctly for each other so it's about learning each other's Love Languages and how we make it work in within that Dynamic I think also because so many people are not used to dealing with emotions at on that level being that vulnerable people mishandle it all right so it takes time for us to get to a place so we understand how to manage this and work through this however I think that I'm a huge believer in connection and I believe connection is like your spirit recognizing its match and it's very instant when you speak to couples who said they experience a connection they'll tell you first conversation first time meeting first date first week it was pretty fast so to me the the recognizing of something deeper being here can happen very quickly but how we now cultivate that and how we move forward is where we need to take our time and make sure we're not rushing and overlooking certain important issues that need to be discussed and addressed first to me it's the understanding of chemistry versus compatibility and the idea that there needs to be a spark there needs to be a connection that I feel with someone like you're saying on a deeper level but I find that I find that most people are not Adept and knowing whether the connection they feel with someone is deeper or physical yeah like I would say that it's easy to it you can often feel a spark with if you meet a lot of people you can feel a spot with a lot of people but that doesn't mean that they're the right person to build a relationship absolutely right yes so it's connection to me is a very rare occurrence right yes so I feel that people who've actually experienced it they can tell you maybe once in their life if you're lucky two times maybe all right but it's not this thing that happens with everybody whereas chemistry uh feeling of spark these things can happen with a lot of different people yeah so I do think there's there's this education that's needed to understand how we differentiate these things so that we don't confuse them because I see a lot of people take that chemistry and think oh this is it this is the one it's like but you had chemistry with the last five people why is this one the one and not them so I do think we have to be careful with that yeah I think so so we're on the same page there's three things there's connection on the deeper level there's chemistry which is like the spark on a more superficial level and then there's compatibility which is like what makes get lost and I can relate to that with my wife I definitely felt so I I'm one of those people who I kind of knew from the first few moments when I met my wife before she was my wife was like I was like yeah this is my person like I felt that way yeah for sure I felt that connection and there was chemistry there too but it had to be turned into compatibility in order to create a long lasting relationship we've been together for 10 years we're still learning building going through everything but that was a big part of it so that I can get behind is do you see it that way too or is there something different in so how do you see it believe it or not I used to make compatibility the least important but that was because I was looking at it the wrong way once I kind of looked at the definition again and compatibility is about two people coexisting in harmony yeah then I was like okay no you you have to have that I just I got caught up more so in like let's say a dating site says okay we're gonna decide who's compatible so I view compatible as like an on the paper it looks good it's supposed to match but you can have a lot of people who are supposed to be compatible and it doesn't work absolutely so I think that it's compatibility is that add-on once we have the connection and the chemistry now we have to create that Harmony which is the compatibility yes I agree with you and and it is interesting how that word compatibility is thrown around and you're so right that compatibility on paper doesn't mean compatibility in real life exactly and to me compatibility really has another word inside of it which is like adaptability and that deeper understanding of an individual where you know how much you're willing to adapt around certain parts of the relationship but we'll get to that I think a lot of people like you know and and that's where we got into this conversation around what is slow a lot of people are waiting to feel like is this person wasting my time are they the one and so they don't have a deeper connection maybe they had that spark of chemistry and now that's kind of subsided how do you know if someone's wasting your time how do you know if you're letting yourself be used or wasted in that way so to me again I think it always starts with self and you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you because just use an example let's say you're a woman and the only reason why you're holding on to this guy is because he's a nice guy you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you figure let me try to make it work you're wasting your time this is where you're setting yourself up for disaster every single time so if it's not born out of a true connection love a genuine desire you really like this individual of course there's always things we have to work through but is the foundation strong enough for us to say okay we can make something special here and I think once we are honest with ourselves that kind of helps answer the question because sometimes we get so caught up trying to animal lies the other individual that is like we get in our heads and now we're missing the mark on what's really important here and we can't always say for sure what's going on with them I will say that in general if this person isn't willing to talk about things they're wasting your time if they're not willing to address or correct things that have been talked about they're wasting your time if you guys aren't on the same page about what you want and where you want to go in life wasting time so there are some things I think we can just look at and say listen this is pointless here but a lot of times and I have to say this especially for women women's intuition is extremely powerful I'm a huge believer in it and I feel like women know very early this isn't it but they rationalize reasons to convince themselves to give this man a chance and this again is a waste of time because it just doesn't work I've seen people turn what should have been maybe a couple weeks of dating into years of being married to someone they were not happy with all because they did not listen to themselves from the beginning they knew what it was but they just could not accept it for what it was yeah and I love that point on intuition it's almost like when a relationship finally ends a lot of us think to ourselves I knew they weren't right yeah like I knew it I knew that they weren't the one but you just didn't listen to that part of yourself yes so so let's break it down for people let's help people out we started talking about three very important words connection which you defined chemistry which we've defined in compatibility which we've defined how do people know the difference between connection and chemistry when they meet someone because I find that the science shows that you're experiencing dopamine and cortisol at the same times you're experiencing the reward chemical and stress chemical at the same time which gives you that chemistry feeling which is the feeling of butterflies in your stomach or like do they like me are they into me what should I wear that kind of feeling but then you're talking about a deeper connection how do you hear the difference because I think a lot of us just get swept up in the feeling of I'm So Into that person they're so into me how do you know so I think one is are you even being yourself or can you be yourself with this individual if if you're presenting your representative then this is not a real connection this is them falling for that person that you're presenting but that's not real so to me you have you should be already being yourself but with that person you have a connection with it's a more natural flow we don't have to force it we just feel so much more comfortable around them I think in addition to that is when you when you find yourself all caught up in the moment and caught up in that chemistry again you have to ask yourself what am I really attaching myself to what about what do I really like about this individual what I find is that when it's really about chemistry we're still on the surface you don't really know about them yet you just know you guys had a good time maybe you had fun at this event you guys were able to talk about a lot of different things which is great which is gonna also be important if there is a connection however do you even know what college did they want do you know what kind of Life they want to live you know are you guys really on the same page I think connection is our paths align our purpose is align so for us to align we have to have a deeper understanding of where we're headed and can we head there together so so that's why I think though you may feel it or you may feel like you're feeling it you have to do your due diligence to dig deeper to find out okay is this just I got caught up on the surface or there is something real here yeah and I think once we ask enough questions because I think that's the other big problem we have this experience where we feel this chemistry we're so excited and now we're afraid to ask questions because we don't want to blow up the fantasy yes you know what I'm saying we're just like no no I want to keep believing this is great so let me not ask anything let me not run this person away let me not rock the boat but that's going to be what tells us if this is real or not yes I think you're I think you've hit on something there like we're so scared of losing someone that we're okay with not asking important questions and discovering important truths that actually define whether this relationship is going to last absolutely and that is ultimately going back to your point earlier that is ultimately you not being yourself right you're losing yourself scared that you're going to lose the other person so you're okay with not being yourself do you think it's ever okay this is a funny question I think but I have to ask you because I think it's a healthy discussion do you think it's ever okay to present different sides of yourself in order to attract someone or do you think that you're ultimately setting yourself up for failure in a relationship almost like I think a lot of people they may not become someone completely different but I think a lot of people are like oh I'm gonna show my smart side because it will attract this person or I'm gonna show my this side because they're like that are you saying any of that kind of molding is unhealthy or do you think there's room for that I think anything that is not sustainable is unhealthy so look at it as if I'm a man and I'm meeting this woman I want to impress her so I'm like okay I'm gonna try to spend all my money take a nice five-star restaurant all these things but deep inside I prefer a more simple lifestyle you know I don't like all that extra stuff okay that's horrible that's a sale for disaster that's unhealthy because you can't sustain what you're presenting to that individual that's gonna draw them in so whatever it is another like common example is you'll have women who love to communicate they want to be able to talk to you every single day but because they're afraid of coming off a certain kind of way they'll hold back on their communication so now they'll make it seem like they're okay with talking every now and then we don't always have to text and then this guy falls for that he falls for this low standard I won't call low standard but not having such a high expectation of him when it comes to communication then he finally gets with the woman her true self is going to come out at some point no one can suppress their true self forever it comes out and now it's like what is this I did not sign up for this now we're fighting now we're stressed because you want him to call you more he was used to you not being worried about it so much that's why it's going to always not work out so it's extremely unhealthy unless we're presenting a side of us that is truly us and we can sustain it you've hit on something again that that at the beginning of relationships we often display unrealistic standards and we set those yes and then when things shift and now you're back in reality again the other person's like but wait a minute I thought you were really into me and I even went through that with my wife when we first met I was able to spend pretty much every day with her because I didn't have a job and so I was looking for work I was applying I would go see her at her College every day and I would spend the day with her and I'd be in the library applying for jobs while she was studying yeah and I could see it every day and I think I saw every day potentially for like six months maybe every single day five days a week at least and then when I got a job that wasn't the case anymore because I was at work now and I'd set this unrealistic expectation that we could see each other all the time and even in the beginning I would see her all the time because I'd spend time with her family but we wouldn't spend time with my family because I hadn't told my family yet and so now that my family knew we were trying to split the time and all of a sudden it was like wait a minute we used to spend time at my house and so even in little things like that it took a bit of adapting because I'd set a false standard in our relationship and then thankfully my wife was adapting and she understood and she got it and it was fine but I think for so many people you set unrealistic expectations in who you are yes and that's hard to come back from absolutely yeah and that's why it's so important for us to know who we are so that we can present the real from the jump you know because again A lot of times people you know this idea that we're always changing yes I do think we're always evolving but some of the big shifts that you see are is not because that's just the way life is it's because you did take the time to figure yourself out first and then you got with this person and now you want them to adjust now thank God for you she was able to adjust but there's a lot of people that they can't handle that yeah and now everything falls apart from there so that's why yeah we have to be very careful with what we're presenting from the beginning yeah it's I I agree with you on that that we think people change but actually they just start to understand themselves exactly they went from being completely unconscious about who they were you met an unconscious version of a person yeah and now you think they're changing but they just became conscious of who they are absolutely and but the thing is Stefan as you know like Society doesn't encourage that time of getting to know yourself right when you're young you're not trained in how to think about who you want to be you're trained in thinking about what you want to I do it's about your job it's about your career you're not thinking about who you are as a human being or as a person so how do we in this Society where understanding who you are is not clear it's not encouraged where where does one start or where have you kind of found great insights in trying to discover who we are I would love to see more parents encouraging their children to explore how they're feeling about who they are like what I have found is a lot of people who let's say I I had one client where she wanted to be an actress when she was a little kid uh but parents kind of push in a different direction now she's like a social worker but her desire is still to be an actress like the things that they they wanted to do they they want to do as an adult now you can find back in their childhood in a lot of cases so I feel like too many people have stifled their children's growth in certain areas with limited ideas of well this can't make money or this wouldn't be a good look for the family or whatever the case may be it's like no let them walk in it and see for themselves if that's really where they belong outside of that for me I think the big thing is getting in tune spiritually I'm just a huge believer in that I feel like me finding myself was when I went into what I call my Wilderness period I kind of just shut everything off that I was doing because I used to be all over having fun partying all these different things things and then God kind of slapped me upside my head and I had to like really pull away from everything and go deeper from within and it felt like a process of breaking me down to build me right back up and that's when I start to see things clearer because what I realized is the world is filled with distractions and it's the distractions why we can't see ourselves for who we really are if we simply shut off the distractions long enough you will learn a lot so even if someone just took a year off don't worry you know limit the TV you're watching limit the music you're listening to limit all the internet stuff just really go deeper within yourself spend more time alone spend more time you know thinking and processing you will learn a lot because again a lot of it is it isn't a problem of we don't know ourselves we are not aware and we're not willing to accept and once we allow ourselves to do those two things become aware and then accept it we become free yeah I I mean I agree with you I think that I've always been a big proponent of solitude to understand who you are because as soon as you have another person you now have another person's opinions you have to filter yes as soon as you have another person in front of you you have another person's judgments to filter and so now you can't even say what you truly think about something because you're constantly thinking what does that person think about me and my beliefs and so understanding your beliefs in solitude allows you to be really clear about what your values and beliefs are and and that's what it's there for I think when people get into if we switch to compatibility again the idea we talked about the difference between connection and chemistry but compatibility is really interesting because a lot of people believe that relationships should be hard and they require hard work and a lot of people believe relationships should be easy and everything should just flow where have you kind of discovered your lens on that Spectrum so okay there's a there's a couple ways to look at it I think that most relationships and I'll even be more specific most relations that involve connection and true love are typically hard not because relationships have to be hard but because most people have been hurt by something in their life are holding on to past traumas haven't resolved it once they meet this individual that they feel so strongly about it is scary this is where things get difficult it's the difficultness in how do I handle this how do I manage this you'll have people feel like they're losing themselves but they're not losing themselves their true self is coming out and it's it's the self that's been hiding behind that wall they've been using for quote-unquote protection but I always say the same module to protect you the same as blocking your blessings so now they're being pulled from behind it it's it's makes them feel some kind of way and again people start to mishandle things you also have situations where people are getting bad advice like I'm gonna give one example um there's this uh book called The Game by Neil Strauss I don't know if you ever read that book yeah it was great Neil you know you you answer that world to pick up artistry we learned it and he was great with the women but then once he found that woman that he fell in love with all that stuff doesn't work anymore so you have a lot of men being taught how to handle women in general but they don't understand that's not how you handle the woman you truly love and so now again you have individuals who though they are truly in love with this person they constantly mishandle it with bad Guidance with fear and all these things this is what makes it hard and and I even think that a lot of times the people who are supposed to be together sometimes will have the hardest time getting together but I believe that once we're able to conquer that part of it and actually come together it's not hard yes it takes work I believe we have to be conscious and mindful of how we treat our partners how we show up being willing to listen but I think it's so much easier to do those things with someone you have a connection with and you're truly in love with it's gonna always feel ten times harder when you're in the wrong relationship and I would argue the vast majority of people are in the wrong relationship that's why they're seeing it be so difficult and when you see this whole it's easy typically it's easy because you have two people who are not digging deeper they're they're trying to write out that chemistry we talked about earlier for as long as possible all right so yeah it seems like it's great it's easy no issues but it doesn't really work like that because they're just not facing the reality of the situation so I think we we have to understand that there is going to be some bumps in the road because of all the things that people have been through but once we're able to come together and we know this is our partner this is who we want to share our life with it can get so much better yeah and do you do you think that people have just been given generally the wrong education on how to deal with another person in their life 100 yeah because unfortunately a lot of individuals are giving advice from a bit or hurt place there and and they're trying to disguise it as I'm just looking out for you no you you have inhaled and you cannot properly guide them in a positive and loving Manner and I think that a lot of people you know I always say it's funny how we'll spend a lot of time getting educated for the for the sake of our careers and business but we don't do the same for relationships and yet relationships arguably are even more important than that career business and even if it's not a romantic relationship just relationships in general your ability to coexist with others connect with others is extremely important if you want that business to succeed you have to learn how to establish business relationships there's no way around it so we have to learn how to talk to people listen to people you know what I'm saying and just make make things work when we come together with other individuals so I definitely think that we're just lacking in a lot of education and again too many because there's so many voices on the internet now there's just so much bad advice being given and and the individuals giving it they may be giving like let's say 80 of the advice is accurate but it's that 20 that's completely off that can derail everything and that's the stuff that people are gravitating to and this is causing a lot of problems can you give us some example of some of the like not specific people or anything like that I just mean like could you give example of bad advice and what about it is bad or unhealthy for people to try and put into practice okay so one thing I heard recently was an individual told uh said some of the best advice you can give to men is to not fall in love you know basically just find a woman you want to be with and kind of keep it there the reason why I view that as horrible advice is because you sit down with any man who's lived enough life they will all be able to say there's been at least one time they fail deeply for a woman all right the problem isn't falling deep before a woman the problem is we don't know how to handle it once we get there the problem is because we're not accustomed to handling and processing our emotions a certain kind of way and being this vulnerable we don't understand what's going to be required of us in that moment we also kind of lose sight of because I'm a big believer in masculine and feminine energy and I believe that if she was attracted to you because of that masculine energy that you give off and now you become this emotional wreck because you don't know how to handle all these feelings you have for her well you start to become less attractive to her and it's not that it's not fixable it's fixable but again a lack of understanding and awareness derails the situation so rather than telling men don't fall in love because it's inevitable let's teach them how we walk in love how we make what I call Loving in your masculine how you maintain that energy and still be able to pour into that woman in a way that allows relationship to flourish yeah and how does that work when I think obviously a lot of people in that example that you're giving if if the person is attracted to someone because of their masculine energy but at the same time they want them to be empathetic and compassionate and kind which are generally seen as more feminine energy how does that person balance the two or is that is that not how you're explaining is that no it's about balance so we have to understand we all have masculine and feminine of course within us I'm a Believer in one must be your dominant energy the other is the one you tap into when necessary so as a man you can walk in your masculine and in those moments tap into those things but you can't just stay there all the time all right you can't just become this needy emotional God that's not going to work in the vast majority of cases and so what happens is there's this messaging that's being thrown out there that women don't like good guys I don't believe that's what it is I believe that women become less attracted when you don't know how to exude and walk in your masculine energy it's and and we're hiding behind the label of good guy you can be a good guy and still exude masculine energy and that's the thing and we also think that oh they like bad boys no if you look deeper it's really the masculine energy that that quote-unquote bad boy exudes but what they desire is a mixture of both the same way that we would want a mixture of both we would want a loving sweet woman family woman whatever or and if you're a guy who wants a mask and woman cool but you don't want her to be just that you know you want her to have the ability to tap into that other side when necessary I think we all desire that balance in our partner and I think it's healthy and if we just learn how to maintain it and how to nurture it we would see greater success in relationships yeah what are some of the skills with with mastering that energy that you think we're missing out on and balancing that energy and knowing when to be which and because the reason why it's hard is I think we live in a binary world right like you feel like you have to choose like you're either a bad boy or you're a good girl you are a doer or you're a thinker you're uh winner or you're a loser right like we think like that and some people go okay you need to be masculine or I can be feminine and I I definitely relate to what you were saying like I believe that there is a lot about me that is massively masculine in energy using that language and terminology my drive my ambition how I work my strategic mind and at the same time I consider myself to have a lot of great feminine energy and qualities where it comes to like empowering others and nurturing and the ability to hold deep compassionate space and be empathetic which are all powerful qualities for for everyone right Beyond gender they're powerful qualities and I appreciate and it's taken a long time to know when to be which and it's still and I still make mistakes right there's still sometimes like I should have been more assertive I should have been more affectionate so we live in a world that finds it hard to hold two opposing ideas at the same time yeah we don't know how to do that in any sphere of life let alone within ourselves so what are some of the skills that we can learn in order to nurture both those energies in a healthy way inside of ourselves so I think one it's going to require a lot of if you're already in a relationship it's going to boil down to a lot of transparency and communication you know her if you're that man trying to understand that woman and when you can walk in those two energies her being willing to be honest and open about you know what this was too much over here or I needed some of this over here and in time you're going to become more aware and understanding it's going to be like second nature to you you won't have to overthink it and I think part of it is not overthinking it it's kind of like being ourselves but understanding that we have to learn when this is doing too much and vice versa I also think that in reality for a lot of men especially uh when we're talking about relationships and kind of losing that masculine energy the the underlying issue is fear all right when we become so afraid of losing this woman we lose ourselves and so a lot of men now fall into this very feminine needy space because they're just afraid we have to learn that listen like to me I feel if your partner thinks you're never gonna walk away from them no matter what they do you've lost that's that's a horrible place to be in we have to get to a place where we both understand that as long as we show up the way that we need to show up for each other we have each other's back we will be here but neither of us will tolerate an unhealthy relationship and someone who blatantly does not want to work on making this better I would want my the woman I'm with to feel that way and I need to feel that way once we understand that and you have the confidence of I can walk away if I have to that shifts your energy right there in itself and now you don't find yourself falling into that place where again you start to look a lot more unattractive or for some men they become yes men in their relationships thinking that makes her happy that's turning her off she doesn't want you to be her yes man she wants you to stand up for yourself sometimes give your opinion give your perspective she wants to be able to you know if anything be able to have discussions with you about these things not just you say whatever you want whatever you want whatever you want over time it becomes a problem so I think that once we conquer that fear once we create a space where we can talk about these moments and not feel some kind of way I think sometimes men are not they struggle with taking the criticism from their partner men and women we we all do when we feel when we have actual feelings for someone you know we don't care about you it's not as big of a deal but we're emotionally invested we're more sensitive to it but we have to understand that these criticisms are for the sake of making things better and strengthening this relationship so once we can get to that place it's going to be so much easier to grow in it and then I think it's just a matter of understanding that it's this balance isn't just for your relationship so look at it like from a sports perspective if I'm on a basketball team there may be moments where I need to take the lead and recognize all right everyone else is down someone needs to step up this is my moment and then there's other moments where I realize okay let's say we already have a team captain let me show them that I can follow serve do what needs to be done so that the team can win it's just becoming aware of what the moment requires you know and again I think the more in tune we get the more in tune we get with ourselves and the more in tune we get with our partner the easier it becomes to find that balance that's the challenge right the challenge is just how much patience we have with ourselves and others to realize that you walked into an imbalance unbalanced situation and now it's like how much patience how much time are we going to give it to get to that because the challenge is I think we walk into a situation thinking it's perfect whereas we should be walking into a relationship knowing it's imperfect absolutely and we're going to learn and figure it out together and I think that's what sets us up for failure is because we walk into it going it's perfect and deep down we know it isn't but somehow we gloss over it whereas I find when I know we're gonna fight when I know we're gonna argue and I know there's going to be disagreements that sets me up to develop the skills I need in order to navigate those things yes but if I assume like oh we're never gonna fight and I always get that right we always meet someone who goes to I mean a friend who goes to me Jay we never fight I'm like how long have you been together because I don't I don't know anyone who never fights I get that no one has to get to like yeah the heights of fights yeah I did that I did that it doesn't have to be a heated fight but I don't know anyone who doesn't disagree there you go all right right I think that's important for people to understand yeah there's a difference yes you have some individuals out there that'll say arguing is normal it's healthy and to me it's like listen if we're talking about arguing where we're now Crossing disrespectful lines negative lines you know the way that we the tone we take with each other all these things that's not healthy yes it may happen you should be prepared for that but it does let's not normalize it just gonna keep doing this and it's it is what it is but you're right to to be with each other long enough and never have a disagreement that's extremely rare okay extremely rare and I do think that again as you mentioned we have to be ready for those moments we have to understand and going back to how we find that balance especially as men and even for women it's recognizing so for example if my partner is in a very heated moment let's say she's in her masculine right now all right she's getting rough well meeting her with more masculine is probably going to only make things worse yeah this is the time for me to be compassionate go to her hold her calm her down bring her peace in that moment you see because it we need to balance each other out same thing on the flip side if I'm all heated and I'm I'm extra passionate and then my woman now comes with that same energy that's it now where button has this is her moment to say no let me now be the one to soften the moment up bring that Sweetness in there and everybody calms down so it's learning how to feed off of each other and recognize okay they're over here let me bring it back over here and now we can work from that point and we're both good the problem is that we all see compassion and sweetness and kindness in those moments as a weakness we don't want to be that person because we see that as losing we see that as giving in we see that as us losing our power and strength in a relationship if we become the comforter or if we become the carer right like that's that's a perception that is the perception and we have to change that that is the power position so who is more powerful the person that lets the energy dictate them how they're going to react or the person that brings the energy and dictates how they're going to make this situation play out so if I'm coming in to calm it down and being all sweet because I'm trying to bring peace here I'm in the power position I'm not losing anything I'm gonna gain more peace and happiness and Harmony if I succeed in what I'm trying to do so we have to get out of that mindset of this makes us weaker and that is the big key of it that's a big problem that for a lot of women who struggle with their feminine energy that's a big issue where they feel that being feminine is weakness it's what got them taken advantage of and got them hurt but I always say it's not the feminine energy that's the problem it's who you give it to do they respect it did they honor it you know it's the same thing as a man does she respect your masculine if she doesn't then that might just be a sign you're with the wrong person but don't stop being that guy because the woman who's best for you is going to need that in those moments that that's exactly what it is is that when people have been their best selves for the wrong person that person brings out the worst in them yes right like when someone's been their best loving kindness self but someone took advantage of it that person now thinks next time I've got to be aggressive I've got to be you know powerful I've got to be strong in this way and I feel like that's kind of what most people are dealing with we know that is that you're just dealing with a wounded version of someone yes not a healed version of someone but I think people struggle to trust again and again especially when they see the same patterns in the person they're weird and I guess the question is why do we keep making the same mistakes because I feel like a lot of us keep dating the same people yeah and there's a part of us that also just keeps closing off or being more wounded it's almost like if you cut yourself you now walk around with your hand over that you don't want to get cut again and then if you lead it off and it gets cut even deeper now you're even more conscious of that and so I find that people are doing that where they're closing their heart more and more because it's been so misused and abused and I understand that I understand people don't want to be abused and misused but I guess the question is how do people find people that they know respect them so that they can be their best version or be a better version of themselves so you know you can't drive out Darkness with more Darkness you can't expose someone who's gonna hurt you by being someone who's closed off and holding back yourself we have it's kind of what we were just talking about we have to look at being vulnerable loving and open as not just well I'm setting myself to be hurt no it's how you expose people faster if I come with that energy and you cannot respect it match it then I know you don't belong here but if I hold back I give you a free pass to hold back so now we have two individuals who are hiding behind their walls because it's comfortable there but you can't really see what's what do we really have in front of us those walls are blinding you and you can't properly evaluate the situation so one we we got to get to a place of healing from our past so that we're not just walking around with the hand over the cut no you you gotta let the cup breathe you gotta let it heal all right holding on put your hand on there is delaying the process and like you said all that's gonna happen is when you finally take your hand off but you're taking it off with the wrong person and you haven't learned see what I want people to realize is your actions weren't the problem meaning you being loving sweet kind compassionate wasn't the problem it was the person separate those two things that you don't stop doing the good things now granted are there levels to this to where we have to learn again if I'm thinking about a man if you got so deeply emotional to where you kind of lost your your masculine energy and you became very needy okay you can say all right I need to continue to be loving but I know I have to learn how to draw a line I have to learn how not to cross that moment and again you only crossed it because you were unhealthy to begin with you only cross it because you were afraid to begin with once you get to that place where you're healthy and confident you won't find yourself Crossing that line anymore yeah you won't tolerate certain things anymore so we have to heal we have to be confident and we have to let our light shine so that we can expose what's in front of us easier that's a brilliant answer I I love the differentiation between how sharing your light is not the problem the person's the problem because we yeah we start to doubt whether being a good person a loving person is actually what wins in the world yeah and the truth is that it does win but it has to win with someone who can receive it and absolutely hold that space with you and share that space with you and I find that a lot of people keep giving that energy to the wrong person because we feel we can make them better right like there's this feeling of like I can change this person I can make them better I can heal them there's some of us want to fix people yeah and that means we assume the person we're with is broken and I think this is such a subconscious thing like if you're always critiquing if you're always picking at stuff with your partner chances are you don't think they're great like just now you think there's some issues with them when you think that you can fix them and they're broken tell us about that angle where now we're almost we've talked about being the loving and kind person but sometimes we're being the person that thinks we're loving and kind because we want to improve someone but that person doesn't want to improve one big problem is that what's really driving people to pick that individual is that by being the one that can upgrade you improve you I have more value here by having more value I have a false sense of security you have to appreciate me you're less likely to walk away you're less likely to cheat because you're lucky to have me I feel like I'm the prize here but those situations never really work because again you're choosing someone that is not capable of pouring into you the way you need you're basing this off of what you could do for them and that's not sustainable and you're choosing them because again you have more emotional control here what happens to so many people especially women it's something that I call the unhealthy love cycle of women where women in their first love experience outside of any childhood trauma may have experienced they're their most loving they're just out there they go all the way in but that typically happens at a younger age at an age where men are not mature enough to handle those kind of emotions that level of commitment so on and so forth so she gets hurt after she gets hurt her moment is saying to herself I will never let this happen to me again so now the woman starts to consciously or subconsciously choose men who are I don't want to say lower than hurt but essentially a man who does not take her there he's good enough to be with but I'm not that vulnerable with him he can't hurt me like that first love hurt me and so that Dynamic usually leads to picking that person I can fix I can make better who will appreciate and respect me but again it doesn't work out and many times you'll see these same situations the guy will move on to cheat on her not because and I have to say this because some women think yeah he's just being a man no not because he's a man but because you chose a man that you could never be the woman that he needed and he could never be the man that you needed once he kind of either gets what he needs from you to build himself up or the Smoke Clears from him being infatuated with you he starts to realize I'm not getting everything that I desire and now you building him up has brought him more attention from other women so now the the difference between what you're not giving him and what someone else is willing to give him becomes way clearer now the Temptation gets way stronger and he ends up doing something or she ends up cheating as well because he's safe but he doesn't fulfill her he doesn't satisfy her he he doesn't excite her in any kind of way and that's why I always said earlier like the safe choice is almost always the wrong choice but that is a function of people trying to choose these fix or uppers because they think it's going to give them some leverage there it's leverage that's it yeah it's leverage yeah how do you know when it's time to go like how do you know when it's like I feel like this is a common question where it's like how do you know when it's just I've tried everything we've tried together tried our best maybe we went to therapy maybe we got a coach or maybe you know maybe we didn't do those things how do I just know that I feel like I need to go but I'm scared of being alone yeah I'm I'm scared of dealing with the reality that I put in a lot of energy and I feel like you said this earlier but a lot of people stay in something for a lot longer than they should because they'd rather not be alone yes they'd rather not face reality they'd rather not lose two years of their life they'd rather lose two more thinking that this this should stay like how do you know when it's time to go let me first say this yes I think I think Society needs to change their thinking as far as Letting Go doesn't always mean it can't work out later it's just that it cannot work out under these circumstances all right because some people say well I feel like they're the one okay maybe they are but maybe the time is not right and it's letting go that will allow you both to do what needs to be done in your own personal lives that would allow you to come back together and have something way more amazing so that's number one thing to consider but outside of that it's when one if that person is unwilling to put in the work necessary it's time to go there's like so many times I'll I'll have a video go up about communication and someone will comment saying I've tried talking to him and he doesn't want to talk to me and in my head I'm like why are you still with them if he refuses to talk to you you've already tried there's nothing else to do but people will let it Linger on and continue why they can why they consistently complain or unhappy about this specific issue it's not gonna magically get better they're not gonna just change it just because all of a sudden they see oh it needs to change no if they're fighting it now they have no reason to change it and what people have to understand you know especially with this whole trying to fix people up healing and facing your traumas is one of the hardest things for people to do so if they already have you in their life they're essentially getting the incentive or the benefit of relationship without having to do the deeper work it's almost like if I'm at a job and the job says you need to have a master's degree to work here but we're going to hire you anyway and give you time to get that master's degree if getting that degree is super hard to you you're gonna drag that out as long as possible yeah you may never get the degree until they fire you when they fire you and you realize oh my gosh if I don't do this I'll never get this person back I'll never get this opportunity back now they might go and get it because it's very tough to walk down the path of the healing process so if they're not willing to work on it you guys have already discussed it and I think that's a big thing because there's a lot of relationships that end and the couples don't even know what the real issue was so the communication they'll say well we talked about no you guys argued you guys lashed out there wasn't a clear communication as to what the problem was what is expected how do we go about this if you've done that and I believe one of the most effective ways to do that is through a letter because I feel like verbal communication of deep issues and concerns they typically don't go well you know people get distracted they forget what they want to say the other person gets defensive they're not they're listening to rebuttal not to understand but when there's a letter involved it gives you time to get everything out you can you can evaluate your tone leave no stone unturned and now they have an opportunity to process it on their time to really take it in and then you guys can come together and discuss the letter and now it's so much easier to stay on point and get everything covered if we've done that and they're still unwilling or there's still no progress It's Time to Go yeah that's great that's great advice and I for me that's the biggest one it's like you can't make something last if only one person's working on it you can't keep hoping and waiting and wishing and and like you said that ending doesn't mean forever and often I found that two people need to grow individually to be able to grow collectively and we're forcing growing together so hard but we need space to grow and if you can't grow together chances are you need to grow apart in order to see whether you grow together again or grow for someone else and all of those options are okay but we put so much pressure on people to grow together that they grow apart yeah and actually if they chose to grow apart and grow separately they could come back together if they learn the lessons and I think that's a mistake too though sometimes people think I'm gonna go learn this lesson for this person I meet a lot of people they're like okay they broke up with me because I wasn't XYZ now I'm gonna go become XYZ to win them back yeah and I always find I'm just like well no you should go become XYZ if you think you were missing XYZ but not to win them back because you don't know what they're gonna do what's your take on people trying to win people back so I 100 agree with you like if we're trying to learn or grow it needs to be for the benefit of who we are and just whoever we deal with so was almost like if I was a bad Communicator in this relationship I shouldn't learn to better communicate for that person I need to better communicate for whoever I'm going to be with if you can't see it in that light then maybe you're looking at the wrong thing my thing is this I think it all depends on what the details of the situation was what led to the breakup what were you overlooking what was missing are these fixable issues because a lot of people are trying to win back someone where the issues are not resolved so it's like what's the point of going back we're just going to go in the same cycle all over again they're letting this idea of I miss them I don't want to be without them blind them from the fact that you two did not get along well or you two don't want the same things or YouTube just whatever it is maybe there's a lack of sexual satisfaction I don't know why I feel the need to mention that but it happens a lot of times you have to stay focused on what led to the end and can this be corrected if it can cool but as you mentioned listen correcting it does not guarantee you they're coming back and even if they will come back you don't know when they may need so you may have figured yourself out in six months they might need a year and I would argue if you guys are truly meant for each other and at the end of the year you need a year too you're just overlooking some things and you're rushing the process because you want to get back to them yeah it's I've never found a situation where it was truly only one person who had problems and the other person was squeaky clean no no you thought you were but you got some stuff too you needed to correct of course so I think we have to be honest with ourselves and just keep striving to be better and rather than focus on winning them back just become the best you because if you do and there's a true connection there the opportunity will present itself again and you too will be able to make something of it and the struggle is that when people finally make that decision to break up or let go the study showed that the parts of your brain that are activated in a breakup are the same as detoxing from cocaine right like you're literally trying to detox so you can have a craving yeah for someone that's bad for you yeah or also it says that the areas of the brain that are activated in a breakup are the areas that are the same with physical pain so if someone like punching the stomach the reason why we say like my heart feels broken is because it literally feels like something's broken yeah so when you're going through a breakup when you're feeling the craving to be with that person again studies show that eight over eighty percent of people are looking at what their exes are doing on social media right probably through a Finster account or whatever but you have to you have to know what are some of the healthiest tips that you've given to people and the people that you've worked with that have genuinely helped people move through a breaker the first thing is to ask yourself again why was I even there why am I holding on to this individual again I think sometimes we get so blinded by just the experience or our desire to have this person for whatever reason that we Overlook what was really missing or why this could not work anyway what you'll also find is and I'm sure there's probably a study on it where if you if they broke up with you you ever see a situation it happens on TV a lot where the person could be like okay I'm gonna break up with my partner they're planning on it they've been practicing in their head right it took them a couple weeks to muster up the strength they're about to do it and then the partner breaks up with them yeah now it's oh my gosh I gotta get them back yeah so it's like you just forgot this whole time that was your plan yeah it just gave you the past to do it but now because we don't like to be the one being let go of now we're fighting hard to get it back yeah so we have to really not fall into these little traps that happen to us as human beings our brains just playing tricks on us or something where we confuse these emotions for oh my gosh I must really love them or even like you said you go into that detox and because you miss I always tell people no matter how bad the relationship was there's always good moments so if you're trying to break free you can't just let your brain focus on the good moments you have to remind yourself why this doesn't work but if you keep focusing on the good you start to make yourself think oh because I missed this good moment I must miss them and there's this quote that says sometimes you're not missing the person you're missing the feeling so you've got to be able to differentiate those two things so getting back to how we get over these breakups is recognizing why were we really there to begin with you know could this actually work the next thing is you know I'm a huge believer that a lot of times a breakup is a blessing in disguise even if there is a chance that you two can work together or this is the one for you you may have needed this time to re-evaluate and get things in order something is obviously wrong even if you it may be something as deep as because I've seen situations where everything was going amazingly well on the surface and the person broke up with them let's say the woman lets go of the man so to the man that's really confusing but what it was is that that woman she had not healed from her past relationships and this relationship being so good was scaring her and what happens is the the better you are the scarier it becomes for her she's looking for something to be wrong she has to validate her fear somehow wow when she can't find it she'll either sabotage the relationship or she'll run from it So to that man it may seem like this is so unfair which yeah it sucks but if this woman didn't break up with you now you were inevitably gonna face this same ending but at a worse time yeah all right this is still best that is happening now at least if she can go do what she needs to do there's a chance for this to come back around later but it's hard for us to see it in the moment so I think just really we also have to focus on our healing whenever a breakup happens the mistake we make is that we think it's about healing from the breakup no it's healing from everything you've been through you've probably been sleeping under the rug your childhood trauma for years maybe the last two three relationships whatever it is so and and not healing from those things is contributing to your struggle to get past this breakup and contributing to why you even chose this person to begin with I'm a huge believer that if you haven't healed you are 90 likely to choose the wrong person yeah it's just too difficult to pick that person that you truly love and can truly love you and accept that level of vulnerability when you have still not resolved your past traumas and past hurts yeah so to me that's the next big thing is just focus on your healing process because in that process you will also be able to see more clearly if this is really for you or not like walking around unhealed is like walking around with broken glasses you you can't see straight no matter how hard you try but healing will clear up your vision really really fast and now it'd be like oh wait a minute I didn't belong there yeah you know thank God the broke breakup happened you know now I'm in a better place I move forward so to me I think and I would say in addition to those things is just have an accountability partner whether that's friend coach therapist someone that can help keep you in check help remind you what you need to do someone that you know you have to talk to and update what's going on so you feel like okay I don't want to come back so I'm saying I'm doing the same thing over and over again it doesn't guarantee success but it helps it helps move the needle some so I would highly encourage that that one mindset you spoke about that that changes everything and it hit me today I was just thinking if we were just able in a moment to recognize that something painful now was going to be good for us in five years time that would change so many things in our life yes but we're so poor at dealing with current pain yeah even if it means future joy that we just can't accept that I have to go through this like in everything right like knowing that someone breaking up with you just saved you 10 years of a wasted life is so much more than knowing you're gonna have to go through a few months of pain and 10 months of pain maybe it's a bit longer maybe it's two three years but we just have to get our head around that that sometimes the best things that happen to you are protecting more of your life than the pain that they're causing you need the Peace of knowing I did what I needed to do that's it yeah because anytime you feel like well maybe I could have done this but I could have done that leaves the door open for doubt do it well exactly so it's like and that's why I'm such a big believer in you know there's people who say well once they're done they're done they'll just move on and I'm like no no Express Yourself get everything off your chest because you don't need anything to linger and you questioning well what if I did this different no make sure speak your full piece and now you can say all right I did what I had to do it is what it is I move forward and I mean it makes it easier it may not make it a hundred percent you know not an issue whatsoever but it's gonna be easier and also also for me that's why like my relationship with God is so important because that's where I find my peace in dealing with a situation that doesn't work out the way I want to I always tell myself okay if this isn't working out God has something better for me you know if this is happening right now there's a purpose because I know if I followed his guidance throughout this process there's no need for me to question why is this the current outcome there's a reason for this and I've been through these things enough times to see as you mentioned the reward is going to come it may come next week it may come years from now it will come and I'll be able to see how it all connected yeah Stefan it's been incredible talking to you man this has been such a great back-to-back flowing conversation uh we end every on purpose episode with the final five which is like a rapid fire which means every question has to be answered with one word to one sentence maximum okay so here are your final five the first question is what's the best relationship advice you've ever received or heard or given it is to love fully lovefully and be yourself because as I said earlier that's how you will expose quicker who is for you and who isn't for you second question what is the worst relationship advice you've ever heard or received get under someone to get over someone [Laughter] uh question number three uh how would you defin	this to where we have to learn again if I'm thinking about a man if you got so deeply emotional to where you kind of lost your your masculine energy and you became very needy okay you can say all right I need to continue to be loving but I know I have to learn how to draw a line I have to learn how not to cross that moment and again you only crossed it because you were unhealthy to begin with you only cross it because you were afraid to begin with once you get to that place where you're healthy and confident you won't find yourself Crossing that line anymore yeah you won't tolerate certain things anymore so we have to heal we have to be confident and we have to let our light shine so that we can expose what's in front of us easier that's a brilliant answer I I love the differentiation between how sharing your light is not the problem the person's the problem because we yeah we start to doubt whether being a good person a loving person is actually what wins in the world yeah and the truth is that it does win but it has to win with someone who can receive it and absolutely hold that space with you and share that space with you and I find that a lot of people keep giving that energy to the wrong person because we feel we can make them better	8	6	4	this to where we have to learn again if I'm thinking about a man if you got so deeply emotional to where you kind of lost your your masculine energy and you became very needy okay you can say all right I need to continue to be loving but I know I have to learn how to draw a line I have to learn how not to cross that moment and again you only crossed it because you were unhealthy to begin with you only cross it because you were afraid to begin with once you get to that place where you're healthy and confident you won't find yourself Crossing that line anymore yeah you won't tolerate certain things anymore so we have to heal we have to be confident and we have to let our light shine so that we can expose what's in front of us easier	that's a brilliant answer I I love the differentiation between how sharing your light is not the problem the person's the problem because we yeah we start to doubt whether being a good person a loving person is actually what wins in the world yeah and the truth is that it does win but it has to win with someone who can receive it and absolutely hold that space with you and share that space with you and I find that a lot of people keep giving that energy to the wrong person because we feel we can make them better	6,4,8	8,5,9	6	4	8	8	5	9
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPQBcb9wf8Q	4,056	mPQBcb9wf8Q	2023-03-27 00:00:00	you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you're wasting your time the best-selling author and host the number one Health and Wellness podcast on purpose with Jay Shetty what are the signs that someone deeply loves you because I feel like we live in this world where we're always wondering do they love me do they like me do they really like me are they really into me how do you know when you deeply love someone and when someone deeply loves you how do you even know so I'm gonna start with an answer that people probably won't expect to me the first key is do you truly love them because look at it like this to me a lot of people get caught up in infatuation um they have unhealthy attachments they have different motivations to why they decided this is the person that I want and that can make them feel like they're in love but to me true love flows both ways it's not a one-sided thing so when you can say I I'm not into them like that if we look deep into that situation I can almost guarantee what we'll find is infatuation attachment something else but when you can say no I feel it too I'm deeply in love with them I think that's your first key because without that nothing else matters because a lot of people are choosing Partners based off of what they love me so much so I assume it's safe here and this is a good choice to make but the safe choice is usually the wrong choice and a lot of these people select this individual thinking everything's going to be okay but because you're not really into them you can never be what they need and they were never truly what you needed which is why you never even got to that level with them so to choose them without first evaluating do you truly love them would not be wise yeah that's that's a great question and I think people struggle with that question too because I think we think of love as so many different things wrapped into one for example I could think I love someone because of how they treat me I could think I love someone because they have one quality that I really wish I had or I could love someone because I think that they're out of my league and they give me a bit of attention yeah and so what we think is love is so complex and so wide that we never stop to ask ourselves like what does love mean like what's the definition of love like how do I Define love so how do you define love and how do you encourage other people to create their definitions of Love well for me first off is always God is love and then when we take it from there love is about kindness compassion patience understanding a willingness to be selfless important to that individual but I think what's also important for people to understand is when we're trying to apply it to romantic relationships we have to understand that there's other ingredients that are necessary before we can move forward so you could love someone dearly but if they are not emotionally ready because maybe they haven't healed from their past maybe there's still some things that need to work out in their life then it wouldn't be time to move forward in a relationship with them and we have this bad habit of the minute we feel like there's love there we want to move forward exactly and as you mentioned we can get caught up sometimes in but we love them because of what they do for us but what are you prepared to do for them love is about giving all right so we have to ask ourselves okay do we know what their needs are are we willing to fulfill those needs because if not maybe this wasn't love maybe it just felt good in the moment maybe you got caught up in the hype and that's okay it happens to almost all of us if not all of us at some point in life but we have to just be real very clear with ourselves about what's really driving the intention right now but I think all those things I mentioned is what encompasses love of and that's like the foundation of it and then from there we have to look at some other things to see how we can move forward so many times like you you convince yourself something's love and what I find really interesting is that so many people fall in love too fast and no one wants to go for the slow patient understanding love which is what love requires you just said love is kind love is patient love is understanding those things take time I think those things take time to nurture and to to make sure that we're doing it correctly for each other so it's about learning each other's Love Languages and how we make it work in within that Dynamic I think also because so many people are not used to dealing with emotions at on that level being that vulnerable people mishandle it all right so it takes time for us to get to a place so we understand how to manage this and work through this however I think that I'm a huge believer in connection and I believe connection is like your spirit recognizing its match and it's very instant when you speak to couples who said they experience a connection they'll tell you first conversation first time meeting first date first week it was pretty fast so to me the the recognizing of something deeper being here can happen very quickly but how we now cultivate that and how we move forward is where we need to take our time and make sure we're not rushing and overlooking certain important issues that need to be discussed and addressed first to me it's the understanding of chemistry versus compatibility and the idea that there needs to be a spark there needs to be a connection that I feel with someone like you're saying on a deeper level but I find that I find that most people are not Adept and knowing whether the connection they feel with someone is deeper or physical yeah like I would say that it's easy to it you can often feel a spark with if you meet a lot of people you can feel a spot with a lot of people but that doesn't mean that they're the right person to build a relationship absolutely right yes so it's connection to me is a very rare occurrence right yes so I feel that people who've actually experienced it they can tell you maybe once in their life if you're lucky two times maybe all right but it's not this thing that happens with everybody whereas chemistry uh feeling of spark these things can happen with a lot of different people yeah so I do think there's there's this education that's needed to understand how we differentiate these things so that we don't confuse them because I see a lot of people take that chemistry and think oh this is it this is the one it's like but you had chemistry with the last five people why is this one the one and not them so I do think we have to be careful with that yeah I think so so we're on the same page there's three things there's connection on the deeper level there's chemistry which is like the spark on a more superficial level and then there's compatibility which is like what makes get lost and I can relate to that with my wife I definitely felt so I I'm one of those people who I kind of knew from the first few moments when I met my wife before she was my wife was like I was like yeah this is my person like I felt that way yeah for sure I felt that connection and there was chemistry there too but it had to be turned into compatibility in order to create a long lasting relationship we've been together for 10 years we're still learning building going through everything but that was a big part of it so that I can get behind is do you see it that way too or is there something different in so how do you see it believe it or not I used to make compatibility the least important but that was because I was looking at it the wrong way once I kind of looked at the definition again and compatibility is about two people coexisting in harmony yeah then I was like okay no you you have to have that I just I got caught up more so in like let's say a dating site says okay we're gonna decide who's compatible so I view compatible as like an on the paper it looks good it's supposed to match but you can have a lot of people who are supposed to be compatible and it doesn't work absolutely so I think that it's compatibility is that add-on once we have the connection and the chemistry now we have to create that Harmony which is the compatibility yes I agree with you and and it is interesting how that word compatibility is thrown around and you're so right that compatibility on paper doesn't mean compatibility in real life exactly and to me compatibility really has another word inside of it which is like adaptability and that deeper understanding of an individual where you know how much you're willing to adapt around certain parts of the relationship but we'll get to that I think a lot of people like you know and and that's where we got into this conversation around what is slow a lot of people are waiting to feel like is this person wasting my time are they the one and so they don't have a deeper connection maybe they had that spark of chemistry and now that's kind of subsided how do you know if someone's wasting your time how do you know if you're letting yourself be used or wasted in that way so to me again I think it always starts with self and you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you because just use an example let's say you're a woman and the only reason why you're holding on to this guy is because he's a nice guy you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you figure let me try to make it work you're wasting your time this is where you're setting yourself up for disaster every single time so if it's not born out of a true connection love a genuine desire you really like this individual of course there's always things we have to work through but is the foundation strong enough for us to say okay we can make something special here and I think once we are honest with ourselves that kind of helps answer the question because sometimes we get so caught up trying to animal lies the other individual that is like we get in our heads and now we're missing the mark on what's really important here and we can't always say for sure what's going on with them I will say that in general if this person isn't willing to talk about things they're wasting your time if they're not willing to address or correct things that have been talked about they're wasting your time if you guys aren't on the same page about what you want and where you want to go in life wasting time so there are some things I think we can just look at and say listen this is pointless here but a lot of times and I have to say this especially for women women's intuition is extremely powerful I'm a huge believer in it and I feel like women know very early this isn't it but they rationalize reasons to convince themselves to give this man a chance and this again is a waste of time because it just doesn't work I've seen people turn what should have been maybe a couple weeks of dating into years of being married to someone they were not happy with all because they did not listen to themselves from the beginning they knew what it was but they just could not accept it for what it was yeah and I love that point on intuition it's almost like when a relationship finally ends a lot of us think to ourselves I knew they weren't right yeah like I knew it I knew that they weren't the one but you just didn't listen to that part of yourself yes so so let's break it down for people let's help people out we started talking about three very important words connection which you defined chemistry which we've defined in compatibility which we've defined how do people know the difference between connection and chemistry when they meet someone because I find that the science shows that you're experiencing dopamine and cortisol at the same times you're experiencing the reward chemical and stress chemical at the same time which gives you that chemistry feeling which is the feeling of butterflies in your stomach or like do they like me are they into me what should I wear that kind of feeling but then you're talking about a deeper connection how do you hear the difference because I think a lot of us just get swept up in the feeling of I'm So Into that person they're so into me how do you know so I think one is are you even being yourself or can you be yourself with this individual if if you're presenting your representative then this is not a real connection this is them falling for that person that you're presenting but that's not real so to me you have you should be already being yourself but with that person you have a connection with it's a more natural flow we don't have to force it we just feel so much more comfortable around them I think in addition to that is when you when you find yourself all caught up in the moment and caught up in that chemistry again you have to ask yourself what am I really attaching myself to what about what do I really like about this individual what I find is that when it's really about chemistry we're still on the surface you don't really know about them yet you just know you guys had a good time maybe you had fun at this event you guys were able to talk about a lot of different things which is great which is gonna also be important if there is a connection however do you even know what college did they want do you know what kind of Life they want to live you know are you guys really on the same page I think connection is our paths align our purpose is align so for us to align we have to have a deeper understanding of where we're headed and can we head there together so so that's why I think though you may feel it or you may feel like you're feeling it you have to do your due diligence to dig deeper to find out okay is this just I got caught up on the surface or there is something real here yeah and I think once we ask enough questions because I think that's the other big problem we have this experience where we feel this chemistry we're so excited and now we're afraid to ask questions because we don't want to blow up the fantasy yes you know what I'm saying we're just like no no I want to keep believing this is great so let me not ask anything let me not run this person away let me not rock the boat but that's going to be what tells us if this is real or not yes I think you're I think you've hit on something there like we're so scared of losing someone that we're okay with not asking important questions and discovering important truths that actually define whether this relationship is going to last absolutely and that is ultimately going back to your point earlier that is ultimately you not being yourself right you're losing yourself scared that you're going to lose the other person so you're okay with not being yourself do you think it's ever okay this is a funny question I think but I have to ask you because I think it's a healthy discussion do you think it's ever okay to present different sides of yourself in order to attract someone or do you think that you're ultimately setting yourself up for failure in a relationship almost like I think a lot of people they may not become someone completely different but I think a lot of people are like oh I'm gonna show my smart side because it will attract this person or I'm gonna show my this side because they're like that are you saying any of that kind of molding is unhealthy or do you think there's room for that I think anything that is not sustainable is unhealthy so look at it as if I'm a man and I'm meeting this woman I want to impress her so I'm like okay I'm gonna try to spend all my money take a nice five-star restaurant all these things but deep inside I prefer a more simple lifestyle you know I don't like all that extra stuff okay that's horrible that's a sale for disaster that's unhealthy because you can't sustain what you're presenting to that individual that's gonna draw them in so whatever it is another like common example is you'll have women who love to communicate they want to be able to talk to you every single day but because they're afraid of coming off a certain kind of way they'll hold back on their communication so now they'll make it seem like they're okay with talking every now and then we don't always have to text and then this guy falls for that he falls for this low standard I won't call low standard but not having such a high expectation of him when it comes to communication then he finally gets with the woman her true self is going to come out at some point no one can suppress their true self forever it comes out and now it's like what is this I did not sign up for this now we're fighting now we're stressed because you want him to call you more he was used to you not being worried about it so much that's why it's going to always not work out so it's extremely unhealthy unless we're presenting a side of us that is truly us and we can sustain it you've hit on something again that that at the beginning of relationships we often display unrealistic standards and we set those yes and then when things shift and now you're back in reality again the other person's like but wait a minute I thought you were really into me and I even went through that with my wife when we first met I was able to spend pretty much every day with her because I didn't have a job and so I was looking for work I was applying I would go see her at her College every day and I would spend the day with her and I'd be in the library applying for jobs while she was studying yeah and I could see it every day and I think I saw every day potentially for like six months maybe every single day five days a week at least and then when I got a job that wasn't the case anymore because I was at work now and I'd set this unrealistic expectation that we could see each other all the time and even in the beginning I would see her all the time because I'd spend time with her family but we wouldn't spend time with my family because I hadn't told my family yet and so now that my family knew we were trying to split the time and all of a sudden it was like wait a minute we used to spend time at my house and so even in little things like that it took a bit of adapting because I'd set a false standard in our relationship and then thankfully my wife was adapting and she understood and she got it and it was fine but I think for so many people you set unrealistic expectations in who you are yes and that's hard to come back from absolutely yeah and that's why it's so important for us to know who we are so that we can present the real from the jump you know because again A lot of times people you know this idea that we're always changing yes I do think we're always evolving but some of the big shifts that you see are is not because that's just the way life is it's because you did take the time to figure yourself out first and then you got with this person and now you want them to adjust now thank God for you she was able to adjust but there's a lot of people that they can't handle that yeah and now everything falls apart from there so that's why yeah we have to be very careful with what we're presenting from the beginning yeah it's I I agree with you on that that we think people change but actually they just start to understand themselves exactly they went from being completely unconscious about who they were you met an unconscious version of a person yeah and now you think they're changing but they just became conscious of who they are absolutely and but the thing is Stefan as you know like Society doesn't encourage that time of getting to know yourself right when you're young you're not trained in how to think about who you want to be you're trained in thinking about what you want to I do it's about your job it's about your career you're not thinking about who you are as a human being or as a person so how do we in this Society where understanding who you are is not clear it's not encouraged where where does one start or where have you kind of found great insights in trying to discover who we are I would love to see more parents encouraging their children to explore how they're feeling about who they are like what I have found is a lot of people who let's say I I had one client where she wanted to be an actress when she was a little kid uh but parents kind of push in a different direction now she's like a social worker but her desire is still to be an actress like the things that they they wanted to do they they want to do as an adult now you can find back in their childhood in a lot of cases so I feel like too many people have stifled their children's growth in certain areas with limited ideas of well this can't make money or this wouldn't be a good look for the family or whatever the case may be it's like no let them walk in it and see for themselves if that's really where they belong outside of that for me I think the big thing is getting in tune spiritually I'm just a huge believer in that I feel like me finding myself was when I went into what I call my Wilderness period I kind of just shut everything off that I was doing because I used to be all over having fun partying all these different things things and then God kind of slapped me upside my head and I had to like really pull away from everything and go deeper from within and it felt like a process of breaking me down to build me right back up and that's when I start to see things clearer because what I realized is the world is filled with distractions and it's the distractions why we can't see ourselves for who we really are if we simply shut off the distractions long enough you will learn a lot so even if someone just took a year off don't worry you know limit the TV you're watching limit the music you're listening to limit all the internet stuff just really go deeper within yourself spend more time alone spend more time you know thinking and processing you will learn a lot because again a lot of it is it isn't a problem of we don't know ourselves we are not aware and we're not willing to accept and once we allow ourselves to do those two things become aware and then accept it we become free yeah I I mean I agree with you I think that I've always been a big proponent of solitude to understand who you are because as soon as you have another person you now have another person's opinions you have to filter yes as soon as you have another person in front of you you have another person's judgments to filter and so now you can't even say what you truly think about something because you're constantly thinking what does that person think about me and my beliefs and so understanding your beliefs in solitude allows you to be really clear about what your values and beliefs are and and that's what it's there for I think when people get into if we switch to compatibility again the idea we talked about the difference between connection and chemistry but compatibility is really interesting because a lot of people believe that relationships should be hard and they require hard work and a lot of people believe relationships should be easy and everything should just flow where have you kind of discovered your lens on that Spectrum so okay there's a there's a couple ways to look at it I think that most relationships and I'll even be more specific most relations that involve connection and true love are typically hard not because relationships have to be hard but because most people have been hurt by something in their life are holding on to past traumas haven't resolved it once they meet this individual that they feel so strongly about it is scary this is where things get difficult it's the difficultness in how do I handle this how do I manage this you'll have people feel like they're losing themselves but they're not losing themselves their true self is coming out and it's it's the self that's been hiding behind that wall they've been using for quote-unquote protection but I always say the same module to protect you the same as blocking your blessings so now they're being pulled from behind it it's it's makes them feel some kind of way and again people start to mishandle things you also have situations where people are getting bad advice like I'm gonna give one example um there's this uh book called The Game by Neil Strauss I don't know if you ever read that book yeah it was great Neil you know you you answer that world to pick up artistry we learned it and he was great with the women but then once he found that woman that he fell in love with all that stuff doesn't work anymore so you have a lot of men being taught how to handle women in general but they don't understand that's not how you handle the woman you truly love and so now again you have individuals who though they are truly in love with this person they constantly mishandle it with bad Guidance with fear and all these things this is what makes it hard and and I even think that a lot of times the people who are supposed to be together sometimes will have the hardest time getting together but I believe that once we're able to conquer that part of it and actually come together it's not hard yes it takes work I believe we have to be conscious and mindful of how we treat our partners how we show up being willing to listen but I think it's so much easier to do those things with someone you have a connection with and you're truly in love with it's gonna always feel ten times harder when you're in the wrong relationship and I would argue the vast majority of people are in the wrong relationship that's why they're seeing it be so difficult and when you see this whole it's easy typically it's easy because you have two people who are not digging deeper they're they're trying to write out that chemistry we talked about earlier for as long as possible all right so yeah it seems like it's great it's easy no issues but it doesn't really work like that because they're just not facing the reality of the situation so I think we we have to understand that there is going to be some bumps in the road because of all the things that people have been through but once we're able to come together and we know this is our partner this is who we want to share our life with it can get so much better yeah and do you do you think that people have just been given generally the wrong education on how to deal with another person in their life 100 yeah because unfortunately a lot of individuals are giving advice from a bit or hurt place there and and they're trying to disguise it as I'm just looking out for you no you you have inhaled and you cannot properly guide them in a positive and loving Manner and I think that a lot of people you know I always say it's funny how we'll spend a lot of time getting educated for the for the sake of our careers and business but we don't do the same for relationships and yet relationships arguably are even more important than that career business and even if it's not a romantic relationship just relationships in general your ability to coexist with others connect with others is extremely important if you want that business to succeed you have to learn how to establish business relationships there's no way around it so we have to learn how to talk to people listen to people you know what I'm saying and just make make things work when we come together with other individuals so I definitely think that we're just lacking in a lot of education and again too many because there's so many voices on the internet now there's just so much bad advice being given and and the individuals giving it they may be giving like let's say 80 of the advice is accurate but it's that 20 that's completely off that can derail everything and that's the stuff that people are gravitating to and this is causing a lot of problems can you give us some example of some of the like not specific people or anything like that I just mean like could you give example of bad advice and what about it is bad or unhealthy for people to try and put into practice okay so one thing I heard recently was an individual told uh said some of the best advice you can give to men is to not fall in love you know basically just find a woman you want to be with and kind of keep it there the reason why I view that as horrible advice is because you sit down with any man who's lived enough life they will all be able to say there's been at least one time they fail deeply for a woman all right the problem isn't falling deep before a woman the problem is we don't know how to handle it once we get there the problem is because we're not accustomed to handling and processing our emotions a certain kind of way and being this vulnerable we don't understand what's going to be required of us in that moment we also kind of lose sight of because I'm a big believer in masculine and feminine energy and I believe that if she was attracted to you because of that masculine energy that you give off and now you become this emotional wreck because you don't know how to handle all these feelings you have for her well you start to become less attractive to her and it's not that it's not fixable it's fixable but again a lack of understanding and awareness derails the situation so rather than telling men don't fall in love because it's inevitable let's teach them how we walk in love how we make what I call Loving in your masculine how you maintain that energy and still be able to pour into that woman in a way that allows relationship to flourish yeah and how does that work when I think obviously a lot of people in that example that you're giving if if the person is attracted to someone because of their masculine energy but at the same time they want them to be empathetic and compassionate and kind which are generally seen as more feminine energy how does that person balance the two or is that is that not how you're explaining is that no it's about balance so we have to understand we all have masculine and feminine of course within us I'm a Believer in one must be your dominant energy the other is the one you tap into when necessary so as a man you can walk in your masculine and in those moments tap into those things but you can't just stay there all the time all right you can't just become this needy emotional God that's not going to work in the vast majority of cases and so what happens is there's this messaging that's being thrown out there that women don't like good guys I don't believe that's what it is I believe that women become less attracted when you don't know how to exude and walk in your masculine energy it's and and we're hiding behind the label of good guy you can be a good guy and still exude masculine energy and that's the thing and we also think that oh they like bad boys no if you look deeper it's really the masculine energy that that quote-unquote bad boy exudes but what they desire is a mixture of both the same way that we would want a mixture of both we would want a loving sweet woman family woman whatever or and if you're a guy who wants a mask and woman cool but you don't want her to be just that you know you want her to have the ability to tap into that other side when necessary I think we all desire that balance in our partner and I think it's healthy and if we just learn how to maintain it and how to nurture it we would see greater success in relationships yeah what are some of the skills with with mastering that energy that you think we're missing out on and balancing that energy and knowing when to be which and because the reason why it's hard is I think we live in a binary world right like you feel like you have to choose like you're either a bad boy or you're a good girl you are a doer or you're a thinker you're uh winner or you're a loser right like we think like that and some people go okay you need to be masculine or I can be feminine and I I definitely relate to what you were saying like I believe that there is a lot about me that is massively masculine in energy using that language and terminology my drive my ambition how I work my strategic mind and at the same time I consider myself to have a lot of great feminine energy and qualities where it comes to like empowering others and nurturing and the ability to hold deep compassionate space and be empathetic which are all powerful qualities for for everyone right Beyond gender they're powerful qualities and I appreciate and it's taken a long time to know when to be which and it's still and I still make mistakes right there's still sometimes like I should have been more assertive I should have been more affectionate so we live in a world that finds it hard to hold two opposing ideas at the same time yeah we don't know how to do that in any sphere of life let alone within ourselves so what are some of the skills that we can learn in order to nurture both those energies in a healthy way inside of ourselves so I think one it's going to require a lot of if you're already in a relationship it's going to boil down to a lot of transparency and communication you know her if you're that man trying to understand that woman and when you can walk in those two energies her being willing to be honest and open about you know what this was too much over here or I needed some of this over here and in time you're going to become more aware and understanding it's going to be like second nature to you you won't have to overthink it and I think part of it is not overthinking it it's kind of like being ourselves but understanding that we have to learn when this is doing too much and vice versa I also think that in reality for a lot of men especially uh when we're talking about relationships and kind of losing that masculine energy the the underlying issue is fear all right when we become so afraid of losing this woman we lose ourselves and so a lot of men now fall into this very feminine needy space because they're just afraid we have to learn that listen like to me I feel if your partner thinks you're never gonna walk away from them no matter what they do you've lost that's that's a horrible place to be in we have to get to a place where we both understand that as long as we show up the way that we need to show up for each other we have each other's back we will be here but neither of us will tolerate an unhealthy relationship and someone who blatantly does not want to work on making this better I would want my the woman I'm with to feel that way and I need to feel that way once we understand that and you have the confidence of I can walk away if I have to that shifts your energy right there in itself and now you don't find yourself falling into that place where again you start to look a lot more unattractive or for some men they become yes men in their relationships thinking that makes her happy that's turning her off she doesn't want you to be her yes man she wants you to stand up for yourself sometimes give your opinion give your perspective she wants to be able to you know if anything be able to have discussions with you about these things not just you say whatever you want whatever you want whatever you want over time it becomes a problem so I think that once we conquer that fear once we create a space where we can talk about these moments and not feel some kind of way I think sometimes men are not they struggle with taking the criticism from their partner men and women we we all do when we feel when we have actual feelings for someone you know we don't care about you it's not as big of a deal but we're emotionally invested we're more sensitive to it but we have to understand that these criticisms are for the sake of making things better and strengthening this relationship so once we can get to that place it's going to be so much easier to grow in it and then I think it's just a matter of understanding that it's this balance isn't just for your relationship so look at it like from a sports perspective if I'm on a basketball team there may be moments where I need to take the lead and recognize all right everyone else is down someone needs to step up this is my moment and then there's other moments where I realize okay let's say we already have a team captain let me show them that I can follow serve do what needs to be done so that the team can win it's just becoming aware of what the moment requires you know and again I think the more in tune we get the more in tune we get with ourselves and the more in tune we get with our partner the easier it becomes to find that balance that's the challenge right the challenge is just how much patience we have with ourselves and others to realize that you walked into an imbalance unbalanced situation and now it's like how much patience how much time are we going to give it to get to that because the challenge is I think we walk into a situation thinking it's perfect whereas we should be walking into a relationship knowing it's imperfect absolutely and we're going to learn and figure it out together and I think that's what sets us up for failure is because we walk into it going it's perfect and deep down we know it isn't but somehow we gloss over it whereas I find when I know we're gonna fight when I know we're gonna argue and I know there's going to be disagreements that sets me up to develop the skills I need in order to navigate those things yes but if I assume like oh we're never gonna fight and I always get that right we always meet someone who goes to I mean a friend who goes to me Jay we never fight I'm like how long have you been together because I don't I don't know anyone who never fights I get that no one has to get to like yeah the heights of fights yeah I did that I did that it doesn't have to be a heated fight but I don't know anyone who doesn't disagree there you go all right right I think that's important for people to understand yeah there's a difference yes you have some individuals out there that'll say arguing is normal it's healthy and to me it's like listen if we're talking about arguing where we're now Crossing disrespectful lines negative lines you know the way that we the tone we take with each other all these things that's not healthy yes it may happen you should be prepared for that but it does let's not normalize it just gonna keep doing this and it's it is what it is but you're right to to be with each other long enough and never have a disagreement that's extremely rare okay extremely rare and I do think that again as you mentioned we have to be ready for those moments we have to understand and going back to how we find that balance especially as men and even for women it's recognizing so for example if my partner is in a very heated moment let's say she's in her masculine right now all right she's getting rough well meeting her with more masculine is probably going to only make things worse yeah this is the time for me to be compassionate go to her hold her calm her down bring her peace in that moment you see because it we need to balance each other out same thing on the flip side if I'm all heated and I'm I'm extra passionate and then my woman now comes with that same energy that's it now where button has this is her moment to say no let me now be the one to soften the moment up bring that Sweetness in there and everybody calms down so it's learning how to feed off of each other and recognize okay they're over here let me bring it back over here and now we can work from that point and we're both good the problem is that we all see compassion and sweetness and kindness in those moments as a weakness we don't want to be that person because we see that as losing we see that as giving in we see that as us losing our power and strength in a relationship if we become the comforter or if we become the carer right like that's that's a perception that is the perception and we have to change that that is the power position so who is more powerful the person that lets the energy dictate them how they're going to react or the person that brings the energy and dictates how they're going to make this situation play out so if I'm coming in to calm it down and being all sweet because I'm trying to bring peace here I'm in the power position I'm not losing anything I'm gonna gain more peace and happiness and Harmony if I succeed in what I'm trying to do so we have to get out of that mindset of this makes us weaker and that is the big key of it that's a big problem that for a lot of women who struggle with their feminine energy that's a big issue where they feel that being feminine is weakness it's what got them taken advantage of and got them hurt but I always say it's not the feminine energy that's the problem it's who you give it to do they respect it did they honor it you know it's the same thing as a man does she respect your masculine if she doesn't then that might just be a sign you're with the wrong person but don't stop being that guy because the woman who's best for you is going to need that in those moments that that's exactly what it is is that when people have been their best selves for the wrong person that person brings out the worst in them yes right like when someone's been their best loving kindness self but someone took advantage of it that person now thinks next time I've got to be aggressive I've got to be you know powerful I've got to be strong in this way and I feel like that's kind of what most people are dealing with we know that is that you're just dealing with a wounded version of someone yes not a healed version of someone but I think people struggle to trust again and again especially when they see the same patterns in the person they're weird and I guess the question is why do we keep making the same mistakes because I feel like a lot of us keep dating the same people yeah and there's a part of us that also just keeps closing off or being more wounded it's almost like if you cut yourself you now walk around with your hand over that you don't want to get cut again and then if you lead it off and it gets cut even deeper now you're even more conscious of that and so I find that people are doing that where they're closing their heart more and more because it's been so misused and abused and I understand that I understand people don't want to be abused and misused but I guess the question is how do people find people that they know respect them so that they can be their best version or be a better version of themselves so you know you can't drive out Darkness with more Darkness you can't expose someone who's gonna hurt you by being someone who's closed off and holding back yourself we have it's kind of what we were just talking about we have to look at being vulnerable loving and open as not just well I'm setting myself to be hurt no it's how you expose people faster if I come with that energy and you cannot respect it match it then I know you don't belong here but if I hold back I give you a free pass to hold back so now we have two individuals who are hiding behind their walls because it's comfortable there but you can't really see what's what do we really have in front of us those walls are blinding you and you can't properly evaluate the situation so one we we got to get to a place of healing from our past so that we're not just walking around with the hand over the cut no you you gotta let the cup breathe you gotta let it heal all right holding on put your hand on there is delaying the process and like you said all that's gonna happen is when you finally take your hand off but you're taking it off with the wrong person and you haven't learned see what I want people to realize is your actions weren't the problem meaning you being loving sweet kind compassionate wasn't the problem it was the person separate those two things that you don't stop doing the good things now granted are there levels to this to where we have to learn again if I'm thinking about a man if you got so deeply emotional to where you kind of lost your your masculine energy and you became very needy okay you can say all right I need to continue to be loving but I know I have to learn how to draw a line I have to learn how not to cross that moment and again you only crossed it because you were unhealthy to begin with you only cross it because you were afraid to begin with once you get to that place where you're healthy and confident you won't find yourself Crossing that line anymore yeah you won't tolerate certain things anymore so we have to heal we have to be confident and we have to let our light shine so that we can expose what's in front of us easier that's a brilliant answer I I love the differentiation between how sharing your light is not the problem the person's the problem because we yeah we start to doubt whether being a good person a loving person is actually what wins in the world yeah and the truth is that it does win but it has to win with someone who can receive it and absolutely hold that space with you and share that space with you and I find that a lot of people keep giving that energy to the wrong person because we feel we can make them better right like there's this feeling of like I can change this person I can make them better I can heal them there's some of us want to fix people yeah and that means we assume the person we're with is broken and I think this is such a subconscious thing like if you're always critiquing if you're always picking at stuff with your partner chances are you don't think they're great like just now you think there's some issues with them when you think that you can fix them and they're broken tell us about that angle where now we're almost we've talked about being the loving and kind person but sometimes we're being the person that thinks we're loving and kind because we want to improve someone but that person doesn't want to improve one big problem is that what's really driving people to pick that individual is that by being the one that can upgrade you improve you I have more value here by having more value I have a false sense of security you have to appreciate me you're less likely to walk away you're less likely to cheat because you're lucky to have me I feel like I'm the prize here but those situations never really work because again you're choosing someone that is not capable of pouring into you the way you need you're basing this off of what you could do for them and that's not sustainable and you're choosing them because again you have more emotional control here what happens to so many people especially women it's something that I call the unhealthy love cycle of women where women in their first love experience outside of any childhood trauma may have experienced they're their most loving they're just out there they go all the way in but that typically happens at a younger age at an age where men are not mature enough to handle those kind of emotions that level of commitment so on and so forth so she gets hurt after she gets hurt her moment is saying to herself I will never let this happen to me again so now the woman starts to consciously or subconsciously choose men who are I don't want to say lower than hurt but essentially a man who does not take her there he's good enough to be with but I'm not that vulnerable with him he can't hurt me like that first love hurt me and so that Dynamic usually leads to picking that person I can fix I can make better who will appreciate and respect me but again it doesn't work out and many times you'll see these same situations the guy will move on to cheat on her not because and I have to say this because some women think yeah he's just being a man no not because he's a man but because you chose a man that you could never be the woman that he needed and he could never be the man that you needed once he kind of either gets what he needs from you to build himself up or the Smoke Clears from him being infatuated with you he starts to realize I'm not getting everything that I desire and now you building him up has brought him more attention from other women so now the the difference between what you're not giving him and what someone else is willing to give him becomes way clearer now the Temptation gets way stronger and he ends up doing something or she ends up cheating as well because he's safe but he doesn't fulfill her he doesn't satisfy her he he doesn't excite her in any kind of way and that's why I always said earlier like the safe choice is almost always the wrong choice but that is a function of people trying to choose these fix or uppers because they think it's going to give them some leverage there it's leverage that's it yeah it's leverage yeah how do you know when it's time to go like how do you know when it's like I feel like this is a common question where it's like how do you know when it's just I've tried everything we've tried together tried our best maybe we went to therapy maybe we got a coach or maybe you know maybe we didn't do those things how do I just know that I feel like I need to go but I'm scared of being alone yeah I'm I'm scared of dealing with the reality that I put in a lot of energy and I feel like you said this earlier but a lot of people stay in something for a lot longer than they should because they'd rather not be alone yes they'd rather not face reality they'd rather not lose two years of their life they'd rather lose two more thinking that this this should stay like how do you know when it's time to go let me first say this yes I think I think Society needs to change their thinking as far as Letting Go doesn't always mean it can't work out later it's just that it cannot work out under these circumstances all right because some people say well I feel like they're the one okay maybe they are but maybe the time is not right and it's letting go that will allow you both to do what needs to be done in your own personal lives that would allow you to come back together and have something way more amazing so that's number one thing to consider but outside of that it's when one if that person is unwilling to put in the work necessary it's time to go there's like so many times I'll I'll have a video go up about communication and someone will comment saying I've tried talking to him and he doesn't want to talk to me and in my head I'm like why are you still with them if he refuses to talk to you you've already tried there's nothing else to do but people will let it Linger on and continue why they can why they consistently complain or unhappy about this specific issue it's not gonna magically get better they're not gonna just change it just because all of a sudden they see oh it needs to change no if they're fighting it now they have no reason to change it and what people have to understand you know especially with this whole trying to fix people up healing and facing your traumas is one of the hardest things for people to do so if they already have you in their life they're essentially getting the incentive or the benefit of relationship without having to do the deeper work it's almost like if I'm at a job and the job says you need to have a master's degree to work here but we're going to hire you anyway and give you time to get that master's degree if getting that degree is super hard to you you're gonna drag that out as long as possible yeah you may never get the degree until they fire you when they fire you and you realize oh my gosh if I don't do this I'll never get this person back I'll never get this opportunity back now they might go and get it because it's very tough to walk down the path of the healing process so if they're not willing to work on it you guys have already discussed it and I think that's a big thing because there's a lot of relationships that end and the couples don't even know what the real issue was so the communication they'll say well we talked about no you guys argued you guys lashed out there wasn't a clear communication as to what the problem was what is expected how do we go about this if you've done that and I believe one of the most effective ways to do that is through a letter because I feel like verbal communication of deep issues and concerns they typically don't go well you know people get distracted they forget what they want to say the other person gets defensive they're not they're listening to rebuttal not to understand but when there's a letter involved it gives you time to get everything out you can you can evaluate your tone leave no stone unturned and now they have an opportunity to process it on their time to really take it in and then you guys can come together and discuss the letter and now it's so much easier to stay on point and get everything covered if we've done that and they're still unwilling or there's still no progress It's Time to Go yeah that's great that's great advice and I for me that's the biggest one it's like you can't make something last if only one person's working on it you can't keep hoping and waiting and wishing and and like you said that ending doesn't mean forever and often I found that two people need to grow individually to be able to grow collectively and we're forcing growing together so hard but we need space to grow and if you can't grow together chances are you need to grow apart in order to see whether you grow together again or grow for someone else and all of those options are okay but we put so much pressure on people to grow together that they grow apart yeah and actually if they chose to grow apart and grow separately they could come back together if they learn the lessons and I think that's a mistake too though sometimes people think I'm gonna go learn this lesson for this person I meet a lot of people they're like okay they broke up with me because I wasn't XYZ now I'm gonna go become XYZ to win them back yeah and I always find I'm just like well no you should go become XYZ if you think you were missing XYZ but not to win them back because you don't know what they're gonna do what's your take on people trying to win people back so I 100 agree with you like if we're trying to learn or grow it needs to be for the benefit of who we are and just whoever we deal with so was almost like if I was a bad Communicator in this relationship I shouldn't learn to better communicate for that person I need to better communicate for whoever I'm going to be with if you can't see it in that light then maybe you're looking at the wrong thing my thing is this I think it all depends on what the details of the situation was what led to the breakup what were you overlooking what was missing are these fixable issues because a lot of people are trying to win back someone where the issues are not resolved so it's like what's the point of going back we're just going to go in the same cycle all over again they're letting this idea of I miss them I don't want to be without them blind them from the fact that you two did not get along well or you two don't want the same things or YouTube just whatever it is maybe there's a lack of sexual satisfaction I don't know why I feel the need to mention that but it happens a lot of times you have to stay focused on what led to the end and can this be corrected if it can cool but as you mentioned listen correcting it does not guarantee you they're coming back and even if they will come back you don't know when they may need so you may have figured yourself out in six months they might need a year and I would argue if you guys are truly meant for each other and at the end of the year you need a year too you're just overlooking some things and you're rushing the process because you want to get back to them yeah it's I've never found a situation where it was truly only one person who had problems and the other person was squeaky clean no no you thought you were but you got some stuff too you needed to correct of course so I think we have to be honest with ourselves and just keep striving to be better and rather than focus on winning them back just become the best you because if you do and there's a true connection there the opportunity will present itself again and you too will be able to make something of it and the struggle is that when people finally make that decision to break up or let go the study showed that the parts of your brain that are activated in a breakup are the same as detoxing from cocaine right like you're literally trying to detox so you can have a craving yeah for someone that's bad for you yeah or also it says that the areas of the brain that are activated in a breakup are the areas that are the same with physical pain so if someone like punching the stomach the reason why we say like my heart feels broken is because it literally feels like something's broken yeah so when you're going through a breakup when you're feeling the craving to be with that person again studies show that eight over eighty percent of people are looking at what their exes are doing on social media right probably through a Finster account or whatever but you have to you have to know what are some of the healthiest tips that you've given to people and the people that you've worked with that have genuinely helped people move through a breaker the first thing is to ask yourself again why was I even there why am I holding on to this individual again I think sometimes we get so blinded by just the experience or our desire to have this person for whatever reason that we Overlook what was really missing or why this could not work anyway what you'll also find is and I'm sure there's probably a study on it where if you if they broke up with you you ever see a situation it happens on TV a lot where the person could be like okay I'm gonna break up with my partner they're planning on it they've been practicing in their head right it took them a couple weeks to muster up the strength they're about to do it and then the partner breaks up with them yeah now it's oh my gosh I gotta get them back yeah so it's like you just forgot this whole time that was your plan yeah it just gave you the past to do it but now because we don't like to be the one being let go of now we're fighting hard to get it back yeah so we have to really not fall into these little traps that happen to us as human beings our brains just playing tricks on us or something where we confuse these emotions for oh my gosh I must really love them or even like you said you go into that detox and because you miss I always tell people no matter how bad the relationship was there's always good moments so if you're trying to break free you can't just let your brain focus on the good moments you have to remind yourself why this doesn't work but if you keep focusing on the good you start to make yourself think oh because I missed this good moment I must miss them and there's this quote that says sometimes you're not missing the person you're missing the feeling so you've got to be able to differentiate those two things so getting back to how we get over these breakups is recognizing why were we really there to begin with you know could this actually work the next thing is you know I'm a huge believer that a lot of times a breakup is a blessing in disguise even if there is a chance that you two can work together or this is the one for you you may have needed this time to re-evaluate and get things in order something is obviously wrong even if you it may be something as deep as because I've seen situations where everything was going amazingly well on the surface and the person broke up with them let's say the woman lets go of the man so to the man that's really confusing but what it was is that that woman she had not healed from her past relationships and this relationship being so good was scaring her and what happens is the the better you are the scarier it becomes for her she's looking for something to be wrong she has to validate her fear somehow wow when she can't find it she'll either sabotage the relationship or she'll run from it So to that man it may seem like this is so unfair which yeah it sucks but if this woman didn't break up with you now you were inevitably gonna face this same ending but at a worse time yeah all right this is still best that is happening now at least if she can go do what she needs to do there's a chance for this to come back around later but it's hard for us to see it in the moment so I think just really we also have to focus on our healing whenever a breakup happens the mistake we make is that we think it's about healing from the breakup no it's healing from everything you've been through you've probably been sleeping under the rug your childhood trauma for years maybe the last two three relationships whatever it is so and and not healing from those things is contributing to your struggle to get past this breakup and contributing to why you even chose this person to begin with I'm a huge believer that if you haven't healed you are 90 likely to choose the wrong person yeah it's just too difficult to pick that person that you truly love and can truly love you and accept that level of vulnerability when you have still not resolved your past traumas and past hurts yeah so to me that's the next big thing is just focus on your healing process because in that process you will also be able to see more clearly if this is really for you or not like walking around unhealed is like walking around with broken glasses you you can't see straight no matter how hard you try but healing will clear up your vision really really fast and now it'd be like oh wait a minute I didn't belong there yeah you know thank God the broke breakup happened you know now I'm in a better place I move forward so to me I think and I would say in addition to those things is just have an accountability partner whether that's friend coach therapist someone that can help keep you in check help remind you what you need to do someone that you know you have to talk to and update what's going on so you feel like okay I don't want to come back so I'm saying I'm doing the same thing over and over again it doesn't guarantee success but it helps it helps move the needle some so I would highly encourage that that one mindset you spoke about that that changes everything and it hit me today I was just thinking if we were just able in a moment to recognize that something painful now was going to be good for us in five years time that would change so many things in our life yes but we're so poor at dealing with current pain yeah even if it means future joy that we just can't accept that I have to go through this like in everything right like knowing that someone breaking up with you just saved you 10 years of a wasted life is so much more than knowing you're gonna have to go through a few months of pain and 10 months of pain maybe it's a bit longer maybe it's two three years but we just have to get our head around that that sometimes the best things that happen to you are protecting more of your life than the pain that they're causing you need the Peace of knowing I did what I needed to do that's it yeah because anytime you feel like well maybe I could have done this but I could have done that leaves the door open for doubt do it well exactly so it's like and that's why I'm such a big believer in you know there's people who say well once they're done they're done they'll just move on and I'm like no no Express Yourself get everything off your chest because you don't need anything to linger and you questioning well what if I did this different no make sure speak your full piece and now you can say all right I did what I had to do it is what it is I move forward and I mean it makes it easier it may not make it a hundred percent you know not an issue whatsoever but it's gonna be easier and also also for me that's why like my relationship with God is so important because that's where I find my peace in dealing with a situation that doesn't work out the way I want to I always tell myself okay if this isn't working out God has something better for me you know if this is happening right now there's a purpose because I know if I followed his guidance throughout this process there's no need for me to question why is this the current outcome there's a reason for this and I've been through these things enough times to see as you mentioned the reward is going to come it may come next week it may come years from now it will come and I'll be able to see how it all connected yeah Stefan it's been incredible talking to you man this has been such a great back-to-back flowing conversation uh we end every on purpose episode with the final five which is like a rapid fire which means every question has to be answered with one word to one sentence maximum okay so here are your final five the first question is what's the best relationship advice you've ever received or heard or given it is to love fully lovefully and be yourself because as I said earlier that's how you will expose quicker who is for you and who isn't for you second question what is the worst relationship advice you've ever heard or received get under someone to get over someone [Laughter] uh question number three uh how would you defin	right like there's this feeling of like I can change this person I can make them better I can heal them there's some of us want to fix people yeah and that means we assume the person we're with is broken and I think this is such a subconscious thing like if you're always critiquing if you're always picking at stuff with your partner chances are you don't think they're great like just now you think there's some issues with them when you think that you can fix them and they're broken tell us about that angle where now we're almost we've talked about being the loving and kind person but sometimes we're being the person that thinks we're loving and kind because we want to improve someone but that person doesn't want to improve one big problem is that what's really driving people to pick that individual is that by being the one that can upgrade you improve you I have more value here by having more value I have a false sense of security you have to appreciate me you're less likely to walk away you're less likely to cheat because you're lucky to have me I feel like I'm the prize here but those situations never really work because again you're choosing someone that is not capable of pouring into you the way you need you're basing this off of what you could do for them and that's not sustainable and you're choosing them because again you	-2	6	-4	right like there's this feeling of like I can change this person I can make them better I can heal them there's some of us want to fix people yeah and that means we assume the person we're with is broken	tell us about that angle where now we're almost we've talked about being the loving and kind person but sometimes we're being the person that thinks we're loving and kind because we want to improve someone but that person doesn't want to improve	3,5,-2	2,4,1	3	5	-2	2	4	1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPQBcb9wf8Q	4,056	mPQBcb9wf8Q	2023-03-27 00:00:00	you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you're wasting your time the best-selling author and host the number one Health and Wellness podcast on purpose with Jay Shetty what are the signs that someone deeply loves you because I feel like we live in this world where we're always wondering do they love me do they like me do they really like me are they really into me how do you know when you deeply love someone and when someone deeply loves you how do you even know so I'm gonna start with an answer that people probably won't expect to me the first key is do you truly love them because look at it like this to me a lot of people get caught up in infatuation um they have unhealthy attachments they have different motivations to why they decided this is the person that I want and that can make them feel like they're in love but to me true love flows both ways it's not a one-sided thing so when you can say I I'm not into them like that if we look deep into that situation I can almost guarantee what we'll find is infatuation attachment something else but when you can say no I feel it too I'm deeply in love with them I think that's your first key because without that nothing else matters because a lot of people are choosing Partners based off of what they love me so much so I assume it's safe here and this is a good choice to make but the safe choice is usually the wrong choice and a lot of these people select this individual thinking everything's going to be okay but because you're not really into them you can never be what they need and they were never truly what you needed which is why you never even got to that level with them so to choose them without first evaluating do you truly love them would not be wise yeah that's that's a great question and I think people struggle with that question too because I think we think of love as so many different things wrapped into one for example I could think I love someone because of how they treat me I could think I love someone because they have one quality that I really wish I had or I could love someone because I think that they're out of my league and they give me a bit of attention yeah and so what we think is love is so complex and so wide that we never stop to ask ourselves like what does love mean like what's the definition of love like how do I Define love so how do you define love and how do you encourage other people to create their definitions of Love well for me first off is always God is love and then when we take it from there love is about kindness compassion patience understanding a willingness to be selfless important to that individual but I think what's also important for people to understand is when we're trying to apply it to romantic relationships we have to understand that there's other ingredients that are necessary before we can move forward so you could love someone dearly but if they are not emotionally ready because maybe they haven't healed from their past maybe there's still some things that need to work out in their life then it wouldn't be time to move forward in a relationship with them and we have this bad habit of the minute we feel like there's love there we want to move forward exactly and as you mentioned we can get caught up sometimes in but we love them because of what they do for us but what are you prepared to do for them love is about giving all right so we have to ask ourselves okay do we know what their needs are are we willing to fulfill those needs because if not maybe this wasn't love maybe it just felt good in the moment maybe you got caught up in the hype and that's okay it happens to almost all of us if not all of us at some point in life but we have to just be real very clear with ourselves about what's really driving the intention right now but I think all those things I mentioned is what encompasses love of and that's like the foundation of it and then from there we have to look at some other things to see how we can move forward so many times like you you convince yourself something's love and what I find really interesting is that so many people fall in love too fast and no one wants to go for the slow patient understanding love which is what love requires you just said love is kind love is patient love is understanding those things take time I think those things take time to nurture and to to make sure that we're doing it correctly for each other so it's about learning each other's Love Languages and how we make it work in within that Dynamic I think also because so many people are not used to dealing with emotions at on that level being that vulnerable people mishandle it all right so it takes time for us to get to a place so we understand how to manage this and work through this however I think that I'm a huge believer in connection and I believe connection is like your spirit recognizing its match and it's very instant when you speak to couples who said they experience a connection they'll tell you first conversation first time meeting first date first week it was pretty fast so to me the the recognizing of something deeper being here can happen very quickly but how we now cultivate that and how we move forward is where we need to take our time and make sure we're not rushing and overlooking certain important issues that need to be discussed and addressed first to me it's the understanding of chemistry versus compatibility and the idea that there needs to be a spark there needs to be a connection that I feel with someone like you're saying on a deeper level but I find that I find that most people are not Adept and knowing whether the connection they feel with someone is deeper or physical yeah like I would say that it's easy to it you can often feel a spark with if you meet a lot of people you can feel a spot with a lot of people but that doesn't mean that they're the right person to build a relationship absolutely right yes so it's connection to me is a very rare occurrence right yes so I feel that people who've actually experienced it they can tell you maybe once in their life if you're lucky two times maybe all right but it's not this thing that happens with everybody whereas chemistry uh feeling of spark these things can happen with a lot of different people yeah so I do think there's there's this education that's needed to understand how we differentiate these things so that we don't confuse them because I see a lot of people take that chemistry and think oh this is it this is the one it's like but you had chemistry with the last five people why is this one the one and not them so I do think we have to be careful with that yeah I think so so we're on the same page there's three things there's connection on the deeper level there's chemistry which is like the spark on a more superficial level and then there's compatibility which is like what makes get lost and I can relate to that with my wife I definitely felt so I I'm one of those people who I kind of knew from the first few moments when I met my wife before she was my wife was like I was like yeah this is my person like I felt that way yeah for sure I felt that connection and there was chemistry there too but it had to be turned into compatibility in order to create a long lasting relationship we've been together for 10 years we're still learning building going through everything but that was a big part of it so that I can get behind is do you see it that way too or is there something different in so how do you see it believe it or not I used to make compatibility the least important but that was because I was looking at it the wrong way once I kind of looked at the definition again and compatibility is about two people coexisting in harmony yeah then I was like okay no you you have to have that I just I got caught up more so in like let's say a dating site says okay we're gonna decide who's compatible so I view compatible as like an on the paper it looks good it's supposed to match but you can have a lot of people who are supposed to be compatible and it doesn't work absolutely so I think that it's compatibility is that add-on once we have the connection and the chemistry now we have to create that Harmony which is the compatibility yes I agree with you and and it is interesting how that word compatibility is thrown around and you're so right that compatibility on paper doesn't mean compatibility in real life exactly and to me compatibility really has another word inside of it which is like adaptability and that deeper understanding of an individual where you know how much you're willing to adapt around certain parts of the relationship but we'll get to that I think a lot of people like you know and and that's where we got into this conversation around what is slow a lot of people are waiting to feel like is this person wasting my time are they the one and so they don't have a deeper connection maybe they had that spark of chemistry and now that's kind of subsided how do you know if someone's wasting your time how do you know if you're letting yourself be used or wasted in that way so to me again I think it always starts with self and you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you because just use an example let's say you're a woman and the only reason why you're holding on to this guy is because he's a nice guy you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you figure let me try to make it work you're wasting your time this is where you're setting yourself up for disaster every single time so if it's not born out of a true connection love a genuine desire you really like this individual of course there's always things we have to work through but is the foundation strong enough for us to say okay we can make something special here and I think once we are honest with ourselves that kind of helps answer the question because sometimes we get so caught up trying to animal lies the other individual that is like we get in our heads and now we're missing the mark on what's really important here and we can't always say for sure what's going on with them I will say that in general if this person isn't willing to talk about things they're wasting your time if they're not willing to address or correct things that have been talked about they're wasting your time if you guys aren't on the same page about what you want and where you want to go in life wasting time so there are some things I think we can just look at and say listen this is pointless here but a lot of times and I have to say this especially for women women's intuition is extremely powerful I'm a huge believer in it and I feel like women know very early this isn't it but they rationalize reasons to convince themselves to give this man a chance and this again is a waste of time because it just doesn't work I've seen people turn what should have been maybe a couple weeks of dating into years of being married to someone they were not happy with all because they did not listen to themselves from the beginning they knew what it was but they just could not accept it for what it was yeah and I love that point on intuition it's almost like when a relationship finally ends a lot of us think to ourselves I knew they weren't right yeah like I knew it I knew that they weren't the one but you just didn't listen to that part of yourself yes so so let's break it down for people let's help people out we started talking about three very important words connection which you defined chemistry which we've defined in compatibility which we've defined how do people know the difference between connection and chemistry when they meet someone because I find that the science shows that you're experiencing dopamine and cortisol at the same times you're experiencing the reward chemical and stress chemical at the same time which gives you that chemistry feeling which is the feeling of butterflies in your stomach or like do they like me are they into me what should I wear that kind of feeling but then you're talking about a deeper connection how do you hear the difference because I think a lot of us just get swept up in the feeling of I'm So Into that person they're so into me how do you know so I think one is are you even being yourself or can you be yourself with this individual if if you're presenting your representative then this is not a real connection this is them falling for that person that you're presenting but that's not real so to me you have you should be already being yourself but with that person you have a connection with it's a more natural flow we don't have to force it we just feel so much more comfortable around them I think in addition to that is when you when you find yourself all caught up in the moment and caught up in that chemistry again you have to ask yourself what am I really attaching myself to what about what do I really like about this individual what I find is that when it's really about chemistry we're still on the surface you don't really know about them yet you just know you guys had a good time maybe you had fun at this event you guys were able to talk about a lot of different things which is great which is gonna also be important if there is a connection however do you even know what college did they want do you know what kind of Life they want to live you know are you guys really on the same page I think connection is our paths align our purpose is align so for us to align we have to have a deeper understanding of where we're headed and can we head there together so so that's why I think though you may feel it or you may feel like you're feeling it you have to do your due diligence to dig deeper to find out okay is this just I got caught up on the surface or there is something real here yeah and I think once we ask enough questions because I think that's the other big problem we have this experience where we feel this chemistry we're so excited and now we're afraid to ask questions because we don't want to blow up the fantasy yes you know what I'm saying we're just like no no I want to keep believing this is great so let me not ask anything let me not run this person away let me not rock the boat but that's going to be what tells us if this is real or not yes I think you're I think you've hit on something there like we're so scared of losing someone that we're okay with not asking important questions and discovering important truths that actually define whether this relationship is going to last absolutely and that is ultimately going back to your point earlier that is ultimately you not being yourself right you're losing yourself scared that you're going to lose the other person so you're okay with not being yourself do you think it's ever okay this is a funny question I think but I have to ask you because I think it's a healthy discussion do you think it's ever okay to present different sides of yourself in order to attract someone or do you think that you're ultimately setting yourself up for failure in a relationship almost like I think a lot of people they may not become someone completely different but I think a lot of people are like oh I'm gonna show my smart side because it will attract this person or I'm gonna show my this side because they're like that are you saying any of that kind of molding is unhealthy or do you think there's room for that I think anything that is not sustainable is unhealthy so look at it as if I'm a man and I'm meeting this woman I want to impress her so I'm like okay I'm gonna try to spend all my money take a nice five-star restaurant all these things but deep inside I prefer a more simple lifestyle you know I don't like all that extra stuff okay that's horrible that's a sale for disaster that's unhealthy because you can't sustain what you're presenting to that individual that's gonna draw them in so whatever it is another like common example is you'll have women who love to communicate they want to be able to talk to you every single day but because they're afraid of coming off a certain kind of way they'll hold back on their communication so now they'll make it seem like they're okay with talking every now and then we don't always have to text and then this guy falls for that he falls for this low standard I won't call low standard but not having such a high expectation of him when it comes to communication then he finally gets with the woman her true self is going to come out at some point no one can suppress their true self forever it comes out and now it's like what is this I did not sign up for this now we're fighting now we're stressed because you want him to call you more he was used to you not being worried about it so much that's why it's going to always not work out so it's extremely unhealthy unless we're presenting a side of us that is truly us and we can sustain it you've hit on something again that that at the beginning of relationships we often display unrealistic standards and we set those yes and then when things shift and now you're back in reality again the other person's like but wait a minute I thought you were really into me and I even went through that with my wife when we first met I was able to spend pretty much every day with her because I didn't have a job and so I was looking for work I was applying I would go see her at her College every day and I would spend the day with her and I'd be in the library applying for jobs while she was studying yeah and I could see it every day and I think I saw every day potentially for like six months maybe every single day five days a week at least and then when I got a job that wasn't the case anymore because I was at work now and I'd set this unrealistic expectation that we could see each other all the time and even in the beginning I would see her all the time because I'd spend time with her family but we wouldn't spend time with my family because I hadn't told my family yet and so now that my family knew we were trying to split the time and all of a sudden it was like wait a minute we used to spend time at my house and so even in little things like that it took a bit of adapting because I'd set a false standard in our relationship and then thankfully my wife was adapting and she understood and she got it and it was fine but I think for so many people you set unrealistic expectations in who you are yes and that's hard to come back from absolutely yeah and that's why it's so important for us to know who we are so that we can present the real from the jump you know because again A lot of times people you know this idea that we're always changing yes I do think we're always evolving but some of the big shifts that you see are is not because that's just the way life is it's because you did take the time to figure yourself out first and then you got with this person and now you want them to adjust now thank God for you she was able to adjust but there's a lot of people that they can't handle that yeah and now everything falls apart from there so that's why yeah we have to be very careful with what we're presenting from the beginning yeah it's I I agree with you on that that we think people change but actually they just start to understand themselves exactly they went from being completely unconscious about who they were you met an unconscious version of a person yeah and now you think they're changing but they just became conscious of who they are absolutely and but the thing is Stefan as you know like Society doesn't encourage that time of getting to know yourself right when you're young you're not trained in how to think about who you want to be you're trained in thinking about what you want to I do it's about your job it's about your career you're not thinking about who you are as a human being or as a person so how do we in this Society where understanding who you are is not clear it's not encouraged where where does one start or where have you kind of found great insights in trying to discover who we are I would love to see more parents encouraging their children to explore how they're feeling about who they are like what I have found is a lot of people who let's say I I had one client where she wanted to be an actress when she was a little kid uh but parents kind of push in a different direction now she's like a social worker but her desire is still to be an actress like the things that they they wanted to do they they want to do as an adult now you can find back in their childhood in a lot of cases so I feel like too many people have stifled their children's growth in certain areas with limited ideas of well this can't make money or this wouldn't be a good look for the family or whatever the case may be it's like no let them walk in it and see for themselves if that's really where they belong outside of that for me I think the big thing is getting in tune spiritually I'm just a huge believer in that I feel like me finding myself was when I went into what I call my Wilderness period I kind of just shut everything off that I was doing because I used to be all over having fun partying all these different things things and then God kind of slapped me upside my head and I had to like really pull away from everything and go deeper from within and it felt like a process of breaking me down to build me right back up and that's when I start to see things clearer because what I realized is the world is filled with distractions and it's the distractions why we can't see ourselves for who we really are if we simply shut off the distractions long enough you will learn a lot so even if someone just took a year off don't worry you know limit the TV you're watching limit the music you're listening to limit all the internet stuff just really go deeper within yourself spend more time alone spend more time you know thinking and processing you will learn a lot because again a lot of it is it isn't a problem of we don't know ourselves we are not aware and we're not willing to accept and once we allow ourselves to do those two things become aware and then accept it we become free yeah I I mean I agree with you I think that I've always been a big proponent of solitude to understand who you are because as soon as you have another person you now have another person's opinions you have to filter yes as soon as you have another person in front of you you have another person's judgments to filter and so now you can't even say what you truly think about something because you're constantly thinking what does that person think about me and my beliefs and so understanding your beliefs in solitude allows you to be really clear about what your values and beliefs are and and that's what it's there for I think when people get into if we switch to compatibility again the idea we talked about the difference between connection and chemistry but compatibility is really interesting because a lot of people believe that relationships should be hard and they require hard work and a lot of people believe relationships should be easy and everything should just flow where have you kind of discovered your lens on that Spectrum so okay there's a there's a couple ways to look at it I think that most relationships and I'll even be more specific most relations that involve connection and true love are typically hard not because relationships have to be hard but because most people have been hurt by something in their life are holding on to past traumas haven't resolved it once they meet this individual that they feel so strongly about it is scary this is where things get difficult it's the difficultness in how do I handle this how do I manage this you'll have people feel like they're losing themselves but they're not losing themselves their true self is coming out and it's it's the self that's been hiding behind that wall they've been using for quote-unquote protection but I always say the same module to protect you the same as blocking your blessings so now they're being pulled from behind it it's it's makes them feel some kind of way and again people start to mishandle things you also have situations where people are getting bad advice like I'm gonna give one example um there's this uh book called The Game by Neil Strauss I don't know if you ever read that book yeah it was great Neil you know you you answer that world to pick up artistry we learned it and he was great with the women but then once he found that woman that he fell in love with all that stuff doesn't work anymore so you have a lot of men being taught how to handle women in general but they don't understand that's not how you handle the woman you truly love and so now again you have individuals who though they are truly in love with this person they constantly mishandle it with bad Guidance with fear and all these things this is what makes it hard and and I even think that a lot of times the people who are supposed to be together sometimes will have the hardest time getting together but I believe that once we're able to conquer that part of it and actually come together it's not hard yes it takes work I believe we have to be conscious and mindful of how we treat our partners how we show up being willing to listen but I think it's so much easier to do those things with someone you have a connection with and you're truly in love with it's gonna always feel ten times harder when you're in the wrong relationship and I would argue the vast majority of people are in the wrong relationship that's why they're seeing it be so difficult and when you see this whole it's easy typically it's easy because you have two people who are not digging deeper they're they're trying to write out that chemistry we talked about earlier for as long as possible all right so yeah it seems like it's great it's easy no issues but it doesn't really work like that because they're just not facing the reality of the situation so I think we we have to understand that there is going to be some bumps in the road because of all the things that people have been through but once we're able to come together and we know this is our partner this is who we want to share our life with it can get so much better yeah and do you do you think that people have just been given generally the wrong education on how to deal with another person in their life 100 yeah because unfortunately a lot of individuals are giving advice from a bit or hurt place there and and they're trying to disguise it as I'm just looking out for you no you you have inhaled and you cannot properly guide them in a positive and loving Manner and I think that a lot of people you know I always say it's funny how we'll spend a lot of time getting educated for the for the sake of our careers and business but we don't do the same for relationships and yet relationships arguably are even more important than that career business and even if it's not a romantic relationship just relationships in general your ability to coexist with others connect with others is extremely important if you want that business to succeed you have to learn how to establish business relationships there's no way around it so we have to learn how to talk to people listen to people you know what I'm saying and just make make things work when we come together with other individuals so I definitely think that we're just lacking in a lot of education and again too many because there's so many voices on the internet now there's just so much bad advice being given and and the individuals giving it they may be giving like let's say 80 of the advice is accurate but it's that 20 that's completely off that can derail everything and that's the stuff that people are gravitating to and this is causing a lot of problems can you give us some example of some of the like not specific people or anything like that I just mean like could you give example of bad advice and what about it is bad or unhealthy for people to try and put into practice okay so one thing I heard recently was an individual told uh said some of the best advice you can give to men is to not fall in love you know basically just find a woman you want to be with and kind of keep it there the reason why I view that as horrible advice is because you sit down with any man who's lived enough life they will all be able to say there's been at least one time they fail deeply for a woman all right the problem isn't falling deep before a woman the problem is we don't know how to handle it once we get there the problem is because we're not accustomed to handling and processing our emotions a certain kind of way and being this vulnerable we don't understand what's going to be required of us in that moment we also kind of lose sight of because I'm a big believer in masculine and feminine energy and I believe that if she was attracted to you because of that masculine energy that you give off and now you become this emotional wreck because you don't know how to handle all these feelings you have for her well you start to become less attractive to her and it's not that it's not fixable it's fixable but again a lack of understanding and awareness derails the situation so rather than telling men don't fall in love because it's inevitable let's teach them how we walk in love how we make what I call Loving in your masculine how you maintain that energy and still be able to pour into that woman in a way that allows relationship to flourish yeah and how does that work when I think obviously a lot of people in that example that you're giving if if the person is attracted to someone because of their masculine energy but at the same time they want them to be empathetic and compassionate and kind which are generally seen as more feminine energy how does that person balance the two or is that is that not how you're explaining is that no it's about balance so we have to understand we all have masculine and feminine of course within us I'm a Believer in one must be your dominant energy the other is the one you tap into when necessary so as a man you can walk in your masculine and in those moments tap into those things but you can't just stay there all the time all right you can't just become this needy emotional God that's not going to work in the vast majority of cases and so what happens is there's this messaging that's being thrown out there that women don't like good guys I don't believe that's what it is I believe that women become less attracted when you don't know how to exude and walk in your masculine energy it's and and we're hiding behind the label of good guy you can be a good guy and still exude masculine energy and that's the thing and we also think that oh they like bad boys no if you look deeper it's really the masculine energy that that quote-unquote bad boy exudes but what they desire is a mixture of both the same way that we would want a mixture of both we would want a loving sweet woman family woman whatever or and if you're a guy who wants a mask and woman cool but you don't want her to be just that you know you want her to have the ability to tap into that other side when necessary I think we all desire that balance in our partner and I think it's healthy and if we just learn how to maintain it and how to nurture it we would see greater success in relationships yeah what are some of the skills with with mastering that energy that you think we're missing out on and balancing that energy and knowing when to be which and because the reason why it's hard is I think we live in a binary world right like you feel like you have to choose like you're either a bad boy or you're a good girl you are a doer or you're a thinker you're uh winner or you're a loser right like we think like that and some people go okay you need to be masculine or I can be feminine and I I definitely relate to what you were saying like I believe that there is a lot about me that is massively masculine in energy using that language and terminology my drive my ambition how I work my strategic mind and at the same time I consider myself to have a lot of great feminine energy and qualities where it comes to like empowering others and nurturing and the ability to hold deep compassionate space and be empathetic which are all powerful qualities for for everyone right Beyond gender they're powerful qualities and I appreciate and it's taken a long time to know when to be which and it's still and I still make mistakes right there's still sometimes like I should have been more assertive I should have been more affectionate so we live in a world that finds it hard to hold two opposing ideas at the same time yeah we don't know how to do that in any sphere of life let alone within ourselves so what are some of the skills that we can learn in order to nurture both those energies in a healthy way inside of ourselves so I think one it's going to require a lot of if you're already in a relationship it's going to boil down to a lot of transparency and communication you know her if you're that man trying to understand that woman and when you can walk in those two energies her being willing to be honest and open about you know what this was too much over here or I needed some of this over here and in time you're going to become more aware and understanding it's going to be like second nature to you you won't have to overthink it and I think part of it is not overthinking it it's kind of like being ourselves but understanding that we have to learn when this is doing too much and vice versa I also think that in reality for a lot of men especially uh when we're talking about relationships and kind of losing that masculine energy the the underlying issue is fear all right when we become so afraid of losing this woman we lose ourselves and so a lot of men now fall into this very feminine needy space because they're just afraid we have to learn that listen like to me I feel if your partner thinks you're never gonna walk away from them no matter what they do you've lost that's that's a horrible place to be in we have to get to a place where we both understand that as long as we show up the way that we need to show up for each other we have each other's back we will be here but neither of us will tolerate an unhealthy relationship and someone who blatantly does not want to work on making this better I would want my the woman I'm with to feel that way and I need to feel that way once we understand that and you have the confidence of I can walk away if I have to that shifts your energy right there in itself and now you don't find yourself falling into that place where again you start to look a lot more unattractive or for some men they become yes men in their relationships thinking that makes her happy that's turning her off she doesn't want you to be her yes man she wants you to stand up for yourself sometimes give your opinion give your perspective she wants to be able to you know if anything be able to have discussions with you about these things not just you say whatever you want whatever you want whatever you want over time it becomes a problem so I think that once we conquer that fear once we create a space where we can talk about these moments and not feel some kind of way I think sometimes men are not they struggle with taking the criticism from their partner men and women we we all do when we feel when we have actual feelings for someone you know we don't care about you it's not as big of a deal but we're emotionally invested we're more sensitive to it but we have to understand that these criticisms are for the sake of making things better and strengthening this relationship so once we can get to that place it's going to be so much easier to grow in it and then I think it's just a matter of understanding that it's this balance isn't just for your relationship so look at it like from a sports perspective if I'm on a basketball team there may be moments where I need to take the lead and recognize all right everyone else is down someone needs to step up this is my moment and then there's other moments where I realize okay let's say we already have a team captain let me show them that I can follow serve do what needs to be done so that the team can win it's just becoming aware of what the moment requires you know and again I think the more in tune we get the more in tune we get with ourselves and the more in tune we get with our partner the easier it becomes to find that balance that's the challenge right the challenge is just how much patience we have with ourselves and others to realize that you walked into an imbalance unbalanced situation and now it's like how much patience how much time are we going to give it to get to that because the challenge is I think we walk into a situation thinking it's perfect whereas we should be walking into a relationship knowing it's imperfect absolutely and we're going to learn and figure it out together and I think that's what sets us up for failure is because we walk into it going it's perfect and deep down we know it isn't but somehow we gloss over it whereas I find when I know we're gonna fight when I know we're gonna argue and I know there's going to be disagreements that sets me up to develop the skills I need in order to navigate those things yes but if I assume like oh we're never gonna fight and I always get that right we always meet someone who goes to I mean a friend who goes to me Jay we never fight I'm like how long have you been together because I don't I don't know anyone who never fights I get that no one has to get to like yeah the heights of fights yeah I did that I did that it doesn't have to be a heated fight but I don't know anyone who doesn't disagree there you go all right right I think that's important for people to understand yeah there's a difference yes you have some individuals out there that'll say arguing is normal it's healthy and to me it's like listen if we're talking about arguing where we're now Crossing disrespectful lines negative lines you know the way that we the tone we take with each other all these things that's not healthy yes it may happen you should be prepared for that but it does let's not normalize it just gonna keep doing this and it's it is what it is but you're right to to be with each other long enough and never have a disagreement that's extremely rare okay extremely rare and I do think that again as you mentioned we have to be ready for those moments we have to understand and going back to how we find that balance especially as men and even for women it's recognizing so for example if my partner is in a very heated moment let's say she's in her masculine right now all right she's getting rough well meeting her with more masculine is probably going to only make things worse yeah this is the time for me to be compassionate go to her hold her calm her down bring her peace in that moment you see because it we need to balance each other out same thing on the flip side if I'm all heated and I'm I'm extra passionate and then my woman now comes with that same energy that's it now where button has this is her moment to say no let me now be the one to soften the moment up bring that Sweetness in there and everybody calms down so it's learning how to feed off of each other and recognize okay they're over here let me bring it back over here and now we can work from that point and we're both good the problem is that we all see compassion and sweetness and kindness in those moments as a weakness we don't want to be that person because we see that as losing we see that as giving in we see that as us losing our power and strength in a relationship if we become the comforter or if we become the carer right like that's that's a perception that is the perception and we have to change that that is the power position so who is more powerful the person that lets the energy dictate them how they're going to react or the person that brings the energy and dictates how they're going to make this situation play out so if I'm coming in to calm it down and being all sweet because I'm trying to bring peace here I'm in the power position I'm not losing anything I'm gonna gain more peace and happiness and Harmony if I succeed in what I'm trying to do so we have to get out of that mindset of this makes us weaker and that is the big key of it that's a big problem that for a lot of women who struggle with their feminine energy that's a big issue where they feel that being feminine is weakness it's what got them taken advantage of and got them hurt but I always say it's not the feminine energy that's the problem it's who you give it to do they respect it did they honor it you know it's the same thing as a man does she respect your masculine if she doesn't then that might just be a sign you're with the wrong person but don't stop being that guy because the woman who's best for you is going to need that in those moments that that's exactly what it is is that when people have been their best selves for the wrong person that person brings out the worst in them yes right like when someone's been their best loving kindness self but someone took advantage of it that person now thinks next time I've got to be aggressive I've got to be you know powerful I've got to be strong in this way and I feel like that's kind of what most people are dealing with we know that is that you're just dealing with a wounded version of someone yes not a healed version of someone but I think people struggle to trust again and again especially when they see the same patterns in the person they're weird and I guess the question is why do we keep making the same mistakes because I feel like a lot of us keep dating the same people yeah and there's a part of us that also just keeps closing off or being more wounded it's almost like if you cut yourself you now walk around with your hand over that you don't want to get cut again and then if you lead it off and it gets cut even deeper now you're even more conscious of that and so I find that people are doing that where they're closing their heart more and more because it's been so misused and abused and I understand that I understand people don't want to be abused and misused but I guess the question is how do people find people that they know respect them so that they can be their best version or be a better version of themselves so you know you can't drive out Darkness with more Darkness you can't expose someone who's gonna hurt you by being someone who's closed off and holding back yourself we have it's kind of what we were just talking about we have to look at being vulnerable loving and open as not just well I'm setting myself to be hurt no it's how you expose people faster if I come with that energy and you cannot respect it match it then I know you don't belong here but if I hold back I give you a free pass to hold back so now we have two individuals who are hiding behind their walls because it's comfortable there but you can't really see what's what do we really have in front of us those walls are blinding you and you can't properly evaluate the situation so one we we got to get to a place of healing from our past so that we're not just walking around with the hand over the cut no you you gotta let the cup breathe you gotta let it heal all right holding on put your hand on there is delaying the process and like you said all that's gonna happen is when you finally take your hand off but you're taking it off with the wrong person and you haven't learned see what I want people to realize is your actions weren't the problem meaning you being loving sweet kind compassionate wasn't the problem it was the person separate those two things that you don't stop doing the good things now granted are there levels to this to where we have to learn again if I'm thinking about a man if you got so deeply emotional to where you kind of lost your your masculine energy and you became very needy okay you can say all right I need to continue to be loving but I know I have to learn how to draw a line I have to learn how not to cross that moment and again you only crossed it because you were unhealthy to begin with you only cross it because you were afraid to begin with once you get to that place where you're healthy and confident you won't find yourself Crossing that line anymore yeah you won't tolerate certain things anymore so we have to heal we have to be confident and we have to let our light shine so that we can expose what's in front of us easier that's a brilliant answer I I love the differentiation between how sharing your light is not the problem the person's the problem because we yeah we start to doubt whether being a good person a loving person is actually what wins in the world yeah and the truth is that it does win but it has to win with someone who can receive it and absolutely hold that space with you and share that space with you and I find that a lot of people keep giving that energy to the wrong person because we feel we can make them better right like there's this feeling of like I can change this person I can make them better I can heal them there's some of us want to fix people yeah and that means we assume the person we're with is broken and I think this is such a subconscious thing like if you're always critiquing if you're always picking at stuff with your partner chances are you don't think they're great like just now you think there's some issues with them when you think that you can fix them and they're broken tell us about that angle where now we're almost we've talked about being the loving and kind person but sometimes we're being the person that thinks we're loving and kind because we want to improve someone but that person doesn't want to improve one big problem is that what's really driving people to pick that individual is that by being the one that can upgrade you improve you I have more value here by having more value I have a false sense of security you have to appreciate me you're less likely to walk away you're less likely to cheat because you're lucky to have me I feel like I'm the prize here but those situations never really work because again you're choosing someone that is not capable of pouring into you the way you need you're basing this off of what you could do for them and that's not sustainable and you're choosing them because again you have more emotional control here what happens to so many people especially women it's something that I call the unhealthy love cycle of women where women in their first love experience outside of any childhood trauma may have experienced they're their most loving they're just out there they go all the way in but that typically happens at a younger age at an age where men are not mature enough to handle those kind of emotions that level of commitment so on and so forth so she gets hurt after she gets hurt her moment is saying to herself I will never let this happen to me again so now the woman starts to consciously or subconsciously choose men who are I don't want to say lower than hurt but essentially a man who does not take her there he's good enough to be with but I'm not that vulnerable with him he can't hurt me like that first love hurt me and so that Dynamic usually leads to picking that person I can fix I can make better who will appreciate and respect me but again it doesn't work out and many times you'll see these same situations the guy will move on to cheat on her not because and I have to say this because some women think yeah he's just being a man no not because he's a man but because you chose a man that you could never be the woman that he needed and he could never be the man that you needed once he kind of either gets what he needs from you to build himself up or the Smoke Clears from him being infatuated with you he starts to realize I'm not getting everything that I desire and now you building him up has brought him more attention from other women so now the the difference between what you're not giving him and what someone else is willing to give him becomes way clearer now the Temptation gets way stronger and he ends up doing something or she ends up cheating as well because he's safe but he doesn't fulfill her he doesn't satisfy her he he doesn't excite her in any kind of way and that's why I always said earlier like the safe choice is almost always the wrong choice but that is a function of people trying to choose these fix or uppers because they think it's going to give them some leverage there it's leverage that's it yeah it's leverage yeah how do you know when it's time to go like how do you know when it's like I feel like this is a common question where it's like how do you know when it's just I've tried everything we've tried together tried our best maybe we went to therapy maybe we got a coach or maybe you know maybe we didn't do those things how do I just know that I feel like I need to go but I'm scared of being alone yeah I'm I'm scared of dealing with the reality that I put in a lot of energy and I feel like you said this earlier but a lot of people stay in something for a lot longer than they should because they'd rather not be alone yes they'd rather not face reality they'd rather not lose two years of their life they'd rather lose two more thinking that this this should stay like how do you know when it's time to go let me first say this yes I think I think Society needs to change their thinking as far as Letting Go doesn't always mean it can't work out later it's just that it cannot work out under these circumstances all right because some people say well I feel like they're the one okay maybe they are but maybe the time is not right and it's letting go that will allow you both to do what needs to be done in your own personal lives that would allow you to come back together and have something way more amazing so that's number one thing to consider but outside of that it's when one if that person is unwilling to put in the work necessary it's time to go there's like so many times I'll I'll have a video go up about communication and someone will comment saying I've tried talking to him and he doesn't want to talk to me and in my head I'm like why are you still with them if he refuses to talk to you you've already tried there's nothing else to do but people will let it Linger on and continue why they can why they consistently complain or unhappy about this specific issue it's not gonna magically get better they're not gonna just change it just because all of a sudden they see oh it needs to change no if they're fighting it now they have no reason to change it and what people have to understand you know especially with this whole trying to fix people up healing and facing your traumas is one of the hardest things for people to do so if they already have you in their life they're essentially getting the incentive or the benefit of relationship without having to do the deeper work it's almost like if I'm at a job and the job says you need to have a master's degree to work here but we're going to hire you anyway and give you time to get that master's degree if getting that degree is super hard to you you're gonna drag that out as long as possible yeah you may never get the degree until they fire you when they fire you and you realize oh my gosh if I don't do this I'll never get this person back I'll never get this opportunity back now they might go and get it because it's very tough to walk down the path of the healing process so if they're not willing to work on it you guys have already discussed it and I think that's a big thing because there's a lot of relationships that end and the couples don't even know what the real issue was so the communication they'll say well we talked about no you guys argued you guys lashed out there wasn't a clear communication as to what the problem was what is expected how do we go about this if you've done that and I believe one of the most effective ways to do that is through a letter because I feel like verbal communication of deep issues and concerns they typically don't go well you know people get distracted they forget what they want to say the other person gets defensive they're not they're listening to rebuttal not to understand but when there's a letter involved it gives you time to get everything out you can you can evaluate your tone leave no stone unturned and now they have an opportunity to process it on their time to really take it in and then you guys can come together and discuss the letter and now it's so much easier to stay on point and get everything covered if we've done that and they're still unwilling or there's still no progress It's Time to Go yeah that's great that's great advice and I for me that's the biggest one it's like you can't make something last if only one person's working on it you can't keep hoping and waiting and wishing and and like you said that ending doesn't mean forever and often I found that two people need to grow individually to be able to grow collectively and we're forcing growing together so hard but we need space to grow and if you can't grow together chances are you need to grow apart in order to see whether you grow together again or grow for someone else and all of those options are okay but we put so much pressure on people to grow together that they grow apart yeah and actually if they chose to grow apart and grow separately they could come back together if they learn the lessons and I think that's a mistake too though sometimes people think I'm gonna go learn this lesson for this person I meet a lot of people they're like okay they broke up with me because I wasn't XYZ now I'm gonna go become XYZ to win them back yeah and I always find I'm just like well no you should go become XYZ if you think you were missing XYZ but not to win them back because you don't know what they're gonna do what's your take on people trying to win people back so I 100 agree with you like if we're trying to learn or grow it needs to be for the benefit of who we are and just whoever we deal with so was almost like if I was a bad Communicator in this relationship I shouldn't learn to better communicate for that person I need to better communicate for whoever I'm going to be with if you can't see it in that light then maybe you're looking at the wrong thing my thing is this I think it all depends on what the details of the situation was what led to the breakup what were you overlooking what was missing are these fixable issues because a lot of people are trying to win back someone where the issues are not resolved so it's like what's the point of going back we're just going to go in the same cycle all over again they're letting this idea of I miss them I don't want to be without them blind them from the fact that you two did not get along well or you two don't want the same things or YouTube just whatever it is maybe there's a lack of sexual satisfaction I don't know why I feel the need to mention that but it happens a lot of times you have to stay focused on what led to the end and can this be corrected if it can cool but as you mentioned listen correcting it does not guarantee you they're coming back and even if they will come back you don't know when they may need so you may have figured yourself out in six months they might need a year and I would argue if you guys are truly meant for each other and at the end of the year you need a year too you're just overlooking some things and you're rushing the process because you want to get back to them yeah it's I've never found a situation where it was truly only one person who had problems and the other person was squeaky clean no no you thought you were but you got some stuff too you needed to correct of course so I think we have to be honest with ourselves and just keep striving to be better and rather than focus on winning them back just become the best you because if you do and there's a true connection there the opportunity will present itself again and you too will be able to make something of it and the struggle is that when people finally make that decision to break up or let go the study showed that the parts of your brain that are activated in a breakup are the same as detoxing from cocaine right like you're literally trying to detox so you can have a craving yeah for someone that's bad for you yeah or also it says that the areas of the brain that are activated in a breakup are the areas that are the same with physical pain so if someone like punching the stomach the reason why we say like my heart feels broken is because it literally feels like something's broken yeah so when you're going through a breakup when you're feeling the craving to be with that person again studies show that eight over eighty percent of people are looking at what their exes are doing on social media right probably through a Finster account or whatever but you have to you have to know what are some of the healthiest tips that you've given to people and the people that you've worked with that have genuinely helped people move through a breaker the first thing is to ask yourself again why was I even there why am I holding on to this individual again I think sometimes we get so blinded by just the experience or our desire to have this person for whatever reason that we Overlook what was really missing or why this could not work anyway what you'll also find is and I'm sure there's probably a study on it where if you if they broke up with you you ever see a situation it happens on TV a lot where the person could be like okay I'm gonna break up with my partner they're planning on it they've been practicing in their head right it took them a couple weeks to muster up the strength they're about to do it and then the partner breaks up with them yeah now it's oh my gosh I gotta get them back yeah so it's like you just forgot this whole time that was your plan yeah it just gave you the past to do it but now because we don't like to be the one being let go of now we're fighting hard to get it back yeah so we have to really not fall into these little traps that happen to us as human beings our brains just playing tricks on us or something where we confuse these emotions for oh my gosh I must really love them or even like you said you go into that detox and because you miss I always tell people no matter how bad the relationship was there's always good moments so if you're trying to break free you can't just let your brain focus on the good moments you have to remind yourself why this doesn't work but if you keep focusing on the good you start to make yourself think oh because I missed this good moment I must miss them and there's this quote that says sometimes you're not missing the person you're missing the feeling so you've got to be able to differentiate those two things so getting back to how we get over these breakups is recognizing why were we really there to begin with you know could this actually work the next thing is you know I'm a huge believer that a lot of times a breakup is a blessing in disguise even if there is a chance that you two can work together or this is the one for you you may have needed this time to re-evaluate and get things in order something is obviously wrong even if you it may be something as deep as because I've seen situations where everything was going amazingly well on the surface and the person broke up with them let's say the woman lets go of the man so to the man that's really confusing but what it was is that that woman she had not healed from her past relationships and this relationship being so good was scaring her and what happens is the the better you are the scarier it becomes for her she's looking for something to be wrong she has to validate her fear somehow wow when she can't find it she'll either sabotage the relationship or she'll run from it So to that man it may seem like this is so unfair which yeah it sucks but if this woman didn't break up with you now you were inevitably gonna face this same ending but at a worse time yeah all right this is still best that is happening now at least if she can go do what she needs to do there's a chance for this to come back around later but it's hard for us to see it in the moment so I think just really we also have to focus on our healing whenever a breakup happens the mistake we make is that we think it's about healing from the breakup no it's healing from everything you've been through you've probably been sleeping under the rug your childhood trauma for years maybe the last two three relationships whatever it is so and and not healing from those things is contributing to your struggle to get past this breakup and contributing to why you even chose this person to begin with I'm a huge believer that if you haven't healed you are 90 likely to choose the wrong person yeah it's just too difficult to pick that person that you truly love and can truly love you and accept that level of vulnerability when you have still not resolved your past traumas and past hurts yeah so to me that's the next big thing is just focus on your healing process because in that process you will also be able to see more clearly if this is really for you or not like walking around unhealed is like walking around with broken glasses you you can't see straight no matter how hard you try but healing will clear up your vision really really fast and now it'd be like oh wait a minute I didn't belong there yeah you know thank God the broke breakup happened you know now I'm in a better place I move forward so to me I think and I would say in addition to those things is just have an accountability partner whether that's friend coach therapist someone that can help keep you in check help remind you what you need to do someone that you know you have to talk to and update what's going on so you feel like okay I don't want to come back so I'm saying I'm doing the same thing over and over again it doesn't guarantee success but it helps it helps move the needle some so I would highly encourage that that one mindset you spoke about that that changes everything and it hit me today I was just thinking if we were just able in a moment to recognize that something painful now was going to be good for us in five years time that would change so many things in our life yes but we're so poor at dealing with current pain yeah even if it means future joy that we just can't accept that I have to go through this like in everything right like knowing that someone breaking up with you just saved you 10 years of a wasted life is so much more than knowing you're gonna have to go through a few months of pain and 10 months of pain maybe it's a bit longer maybe it's two three years but we just have to get our head around that that sometimes the best things that happen to you are protecting more of your life than the pain that they're causing you need the Peace of knowing I did what I needed to do that's it yeah because anytime you feel like well maybe I could have done this but I could have done that leaves the door open for doubt do it well exactly so it's like and that's why I'm such a big believer in you know there's people who say well once they're done they're done they'll just move on and I'm like no no Express Yourself get everything off your chest because you don't need anything to linger and you questioning well what if I did this different no make sure speak your full piece and now you can say all right I did what I had to do it is what it is I move forward and I mean it makes it easier it may not make it a hundred percent you know not an issue whatsoever but it's gonna be easier and also also for me that's why like my relationship with God is so important because that's where I find my peace in dealing with a situation that doesn't work out the way I want to I always tell myself okay if this isn't working out God has something better for me you know if this is happening right now there's a purpose because I know if I followed his guidance throughout this process there's no need for me to question why is this the current outcome there's a reason for this and I've been through these things enough times to see as you mentioned the reward is going to come it may come next week it may come years from now it will come and I'll be able to see how it all connected yeah Stefan it's been incredible talking to you man this has been such a great back-to-back flowing conversation uh we end every on purpose episode with the final five which is like a rapid fire which means every question has to be answered with one word to one sentence maximum okay so here are your final five the first question is what's the best relationship advice you've ever received or heard or given it is to love fully lovefully and be yourself because as I said earlier that's how you will expose quicker who is for you and who isn't for you second question what is the worst relationship advice you've ever heard or received get under someone to get over someone [Laughter] uh question number three uh how would you defin	could never be the man that you needed once he kind of either gets what he needs from you to build himself up or the Smoke Clears from him being infatuated with you he starts to realize I'm not getting everything that I desire and now you building him up has brought him more attention from other women so now the the difference between what you're not giving him and what someone else is willing to give him becomes way clearer now the Temptation gets way stronger and he ends up doing something or she ends up cheating as well because he's safe but he doesn't fulfill her he doesn't satisfy her he he doesn't excite her in any kind of way and that's why I always said earlier like the safe choice is almost always the wrong choice but that is a function of people trying to choose these fix or uppers because they think it's going to give them some leverage there it's leverage that's it yeah it's leverage yeah how do you know when it's time to go like how do you know when it's like I feel like this is a common question where it's like how do you know when it's just I've tried everything we've tried together tried our best maybe we went to therapy maybe we got a coach or maybe you know maybe we didn't do those things how do I just know that I feel like I need to go but	-5	6	-3	how do you know when it's time to go like how do you know when it's like I feel like this is a common question where it's like how do you know when it's just I've tried everything we've tried together tried our best maybe we went to therapy maybe we got a coach or maybe you know maybe we didn't do those things how do I just know that I feel like I need to go but	could never be the man that you needed once he kind of either gets what he needs from you to build himself up or the Smoke Clears from him being infatuated with you he starts to realize I'm not getting everything that I desire and now you building him up has brought him more attention from other women so now the the difference between what you're not giving him and what someone else is willing to give him becomes way clearer now the Temptation gets way stronger and he ends up doing something or she ends up cheating as well because he's safe but he doesn't fulfill her he doesn't satisfy her he he doesn't excite her in any kind of way and that's why I always said earlier like the safe choice is almost always the wrong choice but that is a function of people trying to choose these fix or uppers because they think it's going to give them some leverage there it's leverage that's it yeah it's leverage yeah	2,-3,4	1,6,8	2	-3	4	1	6	8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPQBcb9wf8Q	4,056	mPQBcb9wf8Q	2023-03-27 00:00:00	you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you're wasting your time the best-selling author and host the number one Health and Wellness podcast on purpose with Jay Shetty what are the signs that someone deeply loves you because I feel like we live in this world where we're always wondering do they love me do they like me do they really like me are they really into me how do you know when you deeply love someone and when someone deeply loves you how do you even know so I'm gonna start with an answer that people probably won't expect to me the first key is do you truly love them because look at it like this to me a lot of people get caught up in infatuation um they have unhealthy attachments they have different motivations to why they decided this is the person that I want and that can make them feel like they're in love but to me true love flows both ways it's not a one-sided thing so when you can say I I'm not into them like that if we look deep into that situation I can almost guarantee what we'll find is infatuation attachment something else but when you can say no I feel it too I'm deeply in love with them I think that's your first key because without that nothing else matters because a lot of people are choosing Partners based off of what they love me so much so I assume it's safe here and this is a good choice to make but the safe choice is usually the wrong choice and a lot of these people select this individual thinking everything's going to be okay but because you're not really into them you can never be what they need and they were never truly what you needed which is why you never even got to that level with them so to choose them without first evaluating do you truly love them would not be wise yeah that's that's a great question and I think people struggle with that question too because I think we think of love as so many different things wrapped into one for example I could think I love someone because of how they treat me I could think I love someone because they have one quality that I really wish I had or I could love someone because I think that they're out of my league and they give me a bit of attention yeah and so what we think is love is so complex and so wide that we never stop to ask ourselves like what does love mean like what's the definition of love like how do I Define love so how do you define love and how do you encourage other people to create their definitions of Love well for me first off is always God is love and then when we take it from there love is about kindness compassion patience understanding a willingness to be selfless important to that individual but I think what's also important for people to understand is when we're trying to apply it to romantic relationships we have to understand that there's other ingredients that are necessary before we can move forward so you could love someone dearly but if they are not emotionally ready because maybe they haven't healed from their past maybe there's still some things that need to work out in their life then it wouldn't be time to move forward in a relationship with them and we have this bad habit of the minute we feel like there's love there we want to move forward exactly and as you mentioned we can get caught up sometimes in but we love them because of what they do for us but what are you prepared to do for them love is about giving all right so we have to ask ourselves okay do we know what their needs are are we willing to fulfill those needs because if not maybe this wasn't love maybe it just felt good in the moment maybe you got caught up in the hype and that's okay it happens to almost all of us if not all of us at some point in life but we have to just be real very clear with ourselves about what's really driving the intention right now but I think all those things I mentioned is what encompasses love of and that's like the foundation of it and then from there we have to look at some other things to see how we can move forward so many times like you you convince yourself something's love and what I find really interesting is that so many people fall in love too fast and no one wants to go for the slow patient understanding love which is what love requires you just said love is kind love is patient love is understanding those things take time I think those things take time to nurture and to to make sure that we're doing it correctly for each other so it's about learning each other's Love Languages and how we make it work in within that Dynamic I think also because so many people are not used to dealing with emotions at on that level being that vulnerable people mishandle it all right so it takes time for us to get to a place so we understand how to manage this and work through this however I think that I'm a huge believer in connection and I believe connection is like your spirit recognizing its match and it's very instant when you speak to couples who said they experience a connection they'll tell you first conversation first time meeting first date first week it was pretty fast so to me the the recognizing of something deeper being here can happen very quickly but how we now cultivate that and how we move forward is where we need to take our time and make sure we're not rushing and overlooking certain important issues that need to be discussed and addressed first to me it's the understanding of chemistry versus compatibility and the idea that there needs to be a spark there needs to be a connection that I feel with someone like you're saying on a deeper level but I find that I find that most people are not Adept and knowing whether the connection they feel with someone is deeper or physical yeah like I would say that it's easy to it you can often feel a spark with if you meet a lot of people you can feel a spot with a lot of people but that doesn't mean that they're the right person to build a relationship absolutely right yes so it's connection to me is a very rare occurrence right yes so I feel that people who've actually experienced it they can tell you maybe once in their life if you're lucky two times maybe all right but it's not this thing that happens with everybody whereas chemistry uh feeling of spark these things can happen with a lot of different people yeah so I do think there's there's this education that's needed to understand how we differentiate these things so that we don't confuse them because I see a lot of people take that chemistry and think oh this is it this is the one it's like but you had chemistry with the last five people why is this one the one and not them so I do think we have to be careful with that yeah I think so so we're on the same page there's three things there's connection on the deeper level there's chemistry which is like the spark on a more superficial level and then there's compatibility which is like what makes get lost and I can relate to that with my wife I definitely felt so I I'm one of those people who I kind of knew from the first few moments when I met my wife before she was my wife was like I was like yeah this is my person like I felt that way yeah for sure I felt that connection and there was chemistry there too but it had to be turned into compatibility in order to create a long lasting relationship we've been together for 10 years we're still learning building going through everything but that was a big part of it so that I can get behind is do you see it that way too or is there something different in so how do you see it believe it or not I used to make compatibility the least important but that was because I was looking at it the wrong way once I kind of looked at the definition again and compatibility is about two people coexisting in harmony yeah then I was like okay no you you have to have that I just I got caught up more so in like let's say a dating site says okay we're gonna decide who's compatible so I view compatible as like an on the paper it looks good it's supposed to match but you can have a lot of people who are supposed to be compatible and it doesn't work absolutely so I think that it's compatibility is that add-on once we have the connection and the chemistry now we have to create that Harmony which is the compatibility yes I agree with you and and it is interesting how that word compatibility is thrown around and you're so right that compatibility on paper doesn't mean compatibility in real life exactly and to me compatibility really has another word inside of it which is like adaptability and that deeper understanding of an individual where you know how much you're willing to adapt around certain parts of the relationship but we'll get to that I think a lot of people like you know and and that's where we got into this conversation around what is slow a lot of people are waiting to feel like is this person wasting my time are they the one and so they don't have a deeper connection maybe they had that spark of chemistry and now that's kind of subsided how do you know if someone's wasting your time how do you know if you're letting yourself be used or wasted in that way so to me again I think it always starts with self and you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you because just use an example let's say you're a woman and the only reason why you're holding on to this guy is because he's a nice guy you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you figure let me try to make it work you're wasting your time this is where you're setting yourself up for disaster every single time so if it's not born out of a true connection love a genuine desire you really like this individual of course there's always things we have to work through but is the foundation strong enough for us to say okay we can make something special here and I think once we are honest with ourselves that kind of helps answer the question because sometimes we get so caught up trying to animal lies the other individual that is like we get in our heads and now we're missing the mark on what's really important here and we can't always say for sure what's going on with them I will say that in general if this person isn't willing to talk about things they're wasting your time if they're not willing to address or correct things that have been talked about they're wasting your time if you guys aren't on the same page about what you want and where you want to go in life wasting time so there are some things I think we can just look at and say listen this is pointless here but a lot of times and I have to say this especially for women women's intuition is extremely powerful I'm a huge believer in it and I feel like women know very early this isn't it but they rationalize reasons to convince themselves to give this man a chance and this again is a waste of time because it just doesn't work I've seen people turn what should have been maybe a couple weeks of dating into years of being married to someone they were not happy with all because they did not listen to themselves from the beginning they knew what it was but they just could not accept it for what it was yeah and I love that point on intuition it's almost like when a relationship finally ends a lot of us think to ourselves I knew they weren't right yeah like I knew it I knew that they weren't the one but you just didn't listen to that part of yourself yes so so let's break it down for people let's help people out we started talking about three very important words connection which you defined chemistry which we've defined in compatibility which we've defined how do people know the difference between connection and chemistry when they meet someone because I find that the science shows that you're experiencing dopamine and cortisol at the same times you're experiencing the reward chemical and stress chemical at the same time which gives you that chemistry feeling which is the feeling of butterflies in your stomach or like do they like me are they into me what should I wear that kind of feeling but then you're talking about a deeper connection how do you hear the difference because I think a lot of us just get swept up in the feeling of I'm So Into that person they're so into me how do you know so I think one is are you even being yourself or can you be yourself with this individual if if you're presenting your representative then this is not a real connection this is them falling for that person that you're presenting but that's not real so to me you have you should be already being yourself but with that person you have a connection with it's a more natural flow we don't have to force it we just feel so much more comfortable around them I think in addition to that is when you when you find yourself all caught up in the moment and caught up in that chemistry again you have to ask yourself what am I really attaching myself to what about what do I really like about this individual what I find is that when it's really about chemistry we're still on the surface you don't really know about them yet you just know you guys had a good time maybe you had fun at this event you guys were able to talk about a lot of different things which is great which is gonna also be important if there is a connection however do you even know what college did they want do you know what kind of Life they want to live you know are you guys really on the same page I think connection is our paths align our purpose is align so for us to align we have to have a deeper understanding of where we're headed and can we head there together so so that's why I think though you may feel it or you may feel like you're feeling it you have to do your due diligence to dig deeper to find out okay is this just I got caught up on the surface or there is something real here yeah and I think once we ask enough questions because I think that's the other big problem we have this experience where we feel this chemistry we're so excited and now we're afraid to ask questions because we don't want to blow up the fantasy yes you know what I'm saying we're just like no no I want to keep believing this is great so let me not ask anything let me not run this person away let me not rock the boat but that's going to be what tells us if this is real or not yes I think you're I think you've hit on something there like we're so scared of losing someone that we're okay with not asking important questions and discovering important truths that actually define whether this relationship is going to last absolutely and that is ultimately going back to your point earlier that is ultimately you not being yourself right you're losing yourself scared that you're going to lose the other person so you're okay with not being yourself do you think it's ever okay this is a funny question I think but I have to ask you because I think it's a healthy discussion do you think it's ever okay to present different sides of yourself in order to attract someone or do you think that you're ultimately setting yourself up for failure in a relationship almost like I think a lot of people they may not become someone completely different but I think a lot of people are like oh I'm gonna show my smart side because it will attract this person or I'm gonna show my this side because they're like that are you saying any of that kind of molding is unhealthy or do you think there's room for that I think anything that is not sustainable is unhealthy so look at it as if I'm a man and I'm meeting this woman I want to impress her so I'm like okay I'm gonna try to spend all my money take a nice five-star restaurant all these things but deep inside I prefer a more simple lifestyle you know I don't like all that extra stuff okay that's horrible that's a sale for disaster that's unhealthy because you can't sustain what you're presenting to that individual that's gonna draw them in so whatever it is another like common example is you'll have women who love to communicate they want to be able to talk to you every single day but because they're afraid of coming off a certain kind of way they'll hold back on their communication so now they'll make it seem like they're okay with talking every now and then we don't always have to text and then this guy falls for that he falls for this low standard I won't call low standard but not having such a high expectation of him when it comes to communication then he finally gets with the woman her true self is going to come out at some point no one can suppress their true self forever it comes out and now it's like what is this I did not sign up for this now we're fighting now we're stressed because you want him to call you more he was used to you not being worried about it so much that's why it's going to always not work out so it's extremely unhealthy unless we're presenting a side of us that is truly us and we can sustain it you've hit on something again that that at the beginning of relationships we often display unrealistic standards and we set those yes and then when things shift and now you're back in reality again the other person's like but wait a minute I thought you were really into me and I even went through that with my wife when we first met I was able to spend pretty much every day with her because I didn't have a job and so I was looking for work I was applying I would go see her at her College every day and I would spend the day with her and I'd be in the library applying for jobs while she was studying yeah and I could see it every day and I think I saw every day potentially for like six months maybe every single day five days a week at least and then when I got a job that wasn't the case anymore because I was at work now and I'd set this unrealistic expectation that we could see each other all the time and even in the beginning I would see her all the time because I'd spend time with her family but we wouldn't spend time with my family because I hadn't told my family yet and so now that my family knew we were trying to split the time and all of a sudden it was like wait a minute we used to spend time at my house and so even in little things like that it took a bit of adapting because I'd set a false standard in our relationship and then thankfully my wife was adapting and she understood and she got it and it was fine but I think for so many people you set unrealistic expectations in who you are yes and that's hard to come back from absolutely yeah and that's why it's so important for us to know who we are so that we can present the real from the jump you know because again A lot of times people you know this idea that we're always changing yes I do think we're always evolving but some of the big shifts that you see are is not because that's just the way life is it's because you did take the time to figure yourself out first and then you got with this person and now you want them to adjust now thank God for you she was able to adjust but there's a lot of people that they can't handle that yeah and now everything falls apart from there so that's why yeah we have to be very careful with what we're presenting from the beginning yeah it's I I agree with you on that that we think people change but actually they just start to understand themselves exactly they went from being completely unconscious about who they were you met an unconscious version of a person yeah and now you think they're changing but they just became conscious of who they are absolutely and but the thing is Stefan as you know like Society doesn't encourage that time of getting to know yourself right when you're young you're not trained in how to think about who you want to be you're trained in thinking about what you want to I do it's about your job it's about your career you're not thinking about who you are as a human being or as a person so how do we in this Society where understanding who you are is not clear it's not encouraged where where does one start or where have you kind of found great insights in trying to discover who we are I would love to see more parents encouraging their children to explore how they're feeling about who they are like what I have found is a lot of people who let's say I I had one client where she wanted to be an actress when she was a little kid uh but parents kind of push in a different direction now she's like a social worker but her desire is still to be an actress like the things that they they wanted to do they they want to do as an adult now you can find back in their childhood in a lot of cases so I feel like too many people have stifled their children's growth in certain areas with limited ideas of well this can't make money or this wouldn't be a good look for the family or whatever the case may be it's like no let them walk in it and see for themselves if that's really where they belong outside of that for me I think the big thing is getting in tune spiritually I'm just a huge believer in that I feel like me finding myself was when I went into what I call my Wilderness period I kind of just shut everything off that I was doing because I used to be all over having fun partying all these different things things and then God kind of slapped me upside my head and I had to like really pull away from everything and go deeper from within and it felt like a process of breaking me down to build me right back up and that's when I start to see things clearer because what I realized is the world is filled with distractions and it's the distractions why we can't see ourselves for who we really are if we simply shut off the distractions long enough you will learn a lot so even if someone just took a year off don't worry you know limit the TV you're watching limit the music you're listening to limit all the internet stuff just really go deeper within yourself spend more time alone spend more time you know thinking and processing you will learn a lot because again a lot of it is it isn't a problem of we don't know ourselves we are not aware and we're not willing to accept and once we allow ourselves to do those two things become aware and then accept it we become free yeah I I mean I agree with you I think that I've always been a big proponent of solitude to understand who you are because as soon as you have another person you now have another person's opinions you have to filter yes as soon as you have another person in front of you you have another person's judgments to filter and so now you can't even say what you truly think about something because you're constantly thinking what does that person think about me and my beliefs and so understanding your beliefs in solitude allows you to be really clear about what your values and beliefs are and and that's what it's there for I think when people get into if we switch to compatibility again the idea we talked about the difference between connection and chemistry but compatibility is really interesting because a lot of people believe that relationships should be hard and they require hard work and a lot of people believe relationships should be easy and everything should just flow where have you kind of discovered your lens on that Spectrum so okay there's a there's a couple ways to look at it I think that most relationships and I'll even be more specific most relations that involve connection and true love are typically hard not because relationships have to be hard but because most people have been hurt by something in their life are holding on to past traumas haven't resolved it once they meet this individual that they feel so strongly about it is scary this is where things get difficult it's the difficultness in how do I handle this how do I manage this you'll have people feel like they're losing themselves but they're not losing themselves their true self is coming out and it's it's the self that's been hiding behind that wall they've been using for quote-unquote protection but I always say the same module to protect you the same as blocking your blessings so now they're being pulled from behind it it's it's makes them feel some kind of way and again people start to mishandle things you also have situations where people are getting bad advice like I'm gonna give one example um there's this uh book called The Game by Neil Strauss I don't know if you ever read that book yeah it was great Neil you know you you answer that world to pick up artistry we learned it and he was great with the women but then once he found that woman that he fell in love with all that stuff doesn't work anymore so you have a lot of men being taught how to handle women in general but they don't understand that's not how you handle the woman you truly love and so now again you have individuals who though they are truly in love with this person they constantly mishandle it with bad Guidance with fear and all these things this is what makes it hard and and I even think that a lot of times the people who are supposed to be together sometimes will have the hardest time getting together but I believe that once we're able to conquer that part of it and actually come together it's not hard yes it takes work I believe we have to be conscious and mindful of how we treat our partners how we show up being willing to listen but I think it's so much easier to do those things with someone you have a connection with and you're truly in love with it's gonna always feel ten times harder when you're in the wrong relationship and I would argue the vast majority of people are in the wrong relationship that's why they're seeing it be so difficult and when you see this whole it's easy typically it's easy because you have two people who are not digging deeper they're they're trying to write out that chemistry we talked about earlier for as long as possible all right so yeah it seems like it's great it's easy no issues but it doesn't really work like that because they're just not facing the reality of the situation so I think we we have to understand that there is going to be some bumps in the road because of all the things that people have been through but once we're able to come together and we know this is our partner this is who we want to share our life with it can get so much better yeah and do you do you think that people have just been given generally the wrong education on how to deal with another person in their life 100 yeah because unfortunately a lot of individuals are giving advice from a bit or hurt place there and and they're trying to disguise it as I'm just looking out for you no you you have inhaled and you cannot properly guide them in a positive and loving Manner and I think that a lot of people you know I always say it's funny how we'll spend a lot of time getting educated for the for the sake of our careers and business but we don't do the same for relationships and yet relationships arguably are even more important than that career business and even if it's not a romantic relationship just relationships in general your ability to coexist with others connect with others is extremely important if you want that business to succeed you have to learn how to establish business relationships there's no way around it so we have to learn how to talk to people listen to people you know what I'm saying and just make make things work when we come together with other individuals so I definitely think that we're just lacking in a lot of education and again too many because there's so many voices on the internet now there's just so much bad advice being given and and the individuals giving it they may be giving like let's say 80 of the advice is accurate but it's that 20 that's completely off that can derail everything and that's the stuff that people are gravitating to and this is causing a lot of problems can you give us some example of some of the like not specific people or anything like that I just mean like could you give example of bad advice and what about it is bad or unhealthy for people to try and put into practice okay so one thing I heard recently was an individual told uh said some of the best advice you can give to men is to not fall in love you know basically just find a woman you want to be with and kind of keep it there the reason why I view that as horrible advice is because you sit down with any man who's lived enough life they will all be able to say there's been at least one time they fail deeply for a woman all right the problem isn't falling deep before a woman the problem is we don't know how to handle it once we get there the problem is because we're not accustomed to handling and processing our emotions a certain kind of way and being this vulnerable we don't understand what's going to be required of us in that moment we also kind of lose sight of because I'm a big believer in masculine and feminine energy and I believe that if she was attracted to you because of that masculine energy that you give off and now you become this emotional wreck because you don't know how to handle all these feelings you have for her well you start to become less attractive to her and it's not that it's not fixable it's fixable but again a lack of understanding and awareness derails the situation so rather than telling men don't fall in love because it's inevitable let's teach them how we walk in love how we make what I call Loving in your masculine how you maintain that energy and still be able to pour into that woman in a way that allows relationship to flourish yeah and how does that work when I think obviously a lot of people in that example that you're giving if if the person is attracted to someone because of their masculine energy but at the same time they want them to be empathetic and compassionate and kind which are generally seen as more feminine energy how does that person balance the two or is that is that not how you're explaining is that no it's about balance so we have to understand we all have masculine and feminine of course within us I'm a Believer in one must be your dominant energy the other is the one you tap into when necessary so as a man you can walk in your masculine and in those moments tap into those things but you can't just stay there all the time all right you can't just become this needy emotional God that's not going to work in the vast majority of cases and so what happens is there's this messaging that's being thrown out there that women don't like good guys I don't believe that's what it is I believe that women become less attracted when you don't know how to exude and walk in your masculine energy it's and and we're hiding behind the label of good guy you can be a good guy and still exude masculine energy and that's the thing and we also think that oh they like bad boys no if you look deeper it's really the masculine energy that that quote-unquote bad boy exudes but what they desire is a mixture of both the same way that we would want a mixture of both we would want a loving sweet woman family woman whatever or and if you're a guy who wants a mask and woman cool but you don't want her to be just that you know you want her to have the ability to tap into that other side when necessary I think we all desire that balance in our partner and I think it's healthy and if we just learn how to maintain it and how to nurture it we would see greater success in relationships yeah what are some of the skills with with mastering that energy that you think we're missing out on and balancing that energy and knowing when to be which and because the reason why it's hard is I think we live in a binary world right like you feel like you have to choose like you're either a bad boy or you're a good girl you are a doer or you're a thinker you're uh winner or you're a loser right like we think like that and some people go okay you need to be masculine or I can be feminine and I I definitely relate to what you were saying like I believe that there is a lot about me that is massively masculine in energy using that language and terminology my drive my ambition how I work my strategic mind and at the same time I consider myself to have a lot of great feminine energy and qualities where it comes to like empowering others and nurturing and the ability to hold deep compassionate space and be empathetic which are all powerful qualities for for everyone right Beyond gender they're powerful qualities and I appreciate and it's taken a long time to know when to be which and it's still and I still make mistakes right there's still sometimes like I should have been more assertive I should have been more affectionate so we live in a world that finds it hard to hold two opposing ideas at the same time yeah we don't know how to do that in any sphere of life let alone within ourselves so what are some of the skills that we can learn in order to nurture both those energies in a healthy way inside of ourselves so I think one it's going to require a lot of if you're already in a relationship it's going to boil down to a lot of transparency and communication you know her if you're that man trying to understand that woman and when you can walk in those two energies her being willing to be honest and open about you know what this was too much over here or I needed some of this over here and in time you're going to become more aware and understanding it's going to be like second nature to you you won't have to overthink it and I think part of it is not overthinking it it's kind of like being ourselves but understanding that we have to learn when this is doing too much and vice versa I also think that in reality for a lot of men especially uh when we're talking about relationships and kind of losing that masculine energy the the underlying issue is fear all right when we become so afraid of losing this woman we lose ourselves and so a lot of men now fall into this very feminine needy space because they're just afraid we have to learn that listen like to me I feel if your partner thinks you're never gonna walk away from them no matter what they do you've lost that's that's a horrible place to be in we have to get to a place where we both understand that as long as we show up the way that we need to show up for each other we have each other's back we will be here but neither of us will tolerate an unhealthy relationship and someone who blatantly does not want to work on making this better I would want my the woman I'm with to feel that way and I need to feel that way once we understand that and you have the confidence of I can walk away if I have to that shifts your energy right there in itself and now you don't find yourself falling into that place where again you start to look a lot more unattractive or for some men they become yes men in their relationships thinking that makes her happy that's turning her off she doesn't want you to be her yes man she wants you to stand up for yourself sometimes give your opinion give your perspective she wants to be able to you know if anything be able to have discussions with you about these things not just you say whatever you want whatever you want whatever you want over time it becomes a problem so I think that once we conquer that fear once we create a space where we can talk about these moments and not feel some kind of way I think sometimes men are not they struggle with taking the criticism from their partner men and women we we all do when we feel when we have actual feelings for someone you know we don't care about you it's not as big of a deal but we're emotionally invested we're more sensitive to it but we have to understand that these criticisms are for the sake of making things better and strengthening this relationship so once we can get to that place it's going to be so much easier to grow in it and then I think it's just a matter of understanding that it's this balance isn't just for your relationship so look at it like from a sports perspective if I'm on a basketball team there may be moments where I need to take the lead and recognize all right everyone else is down someone needs to step up this is my moment and then there's other moments where I realize okay let's say we already have a team captain let me show them that I can follow serve do what needs to be done so that the team can win it's just becoming aware of what the moment requires you know and again I think the more in tune we get the more in tune we get with ourselves and the more in tune we get with our partner the easier it becomes to find that balance that's the challenge right the challenge is just how much patience we have with ourselves and others to realize that you walked into an imbalance unbalanced situation and now it's like how much patience how much time are we going to give it to get to that because the challenge is I think we walk into a situation thinking it's perfect whereas we should be walking into a relationship knowing it's imperfect absolutely and we're going to learn and figure it out together and I think that's what sets us up for failure is because we walk into it going it's perfect and deep down we know it isn't but somehow we gloss over it whereas I find when I know we're gonna fight when I know we're gonna argue and I know there's going to be disagreements that sets me up to develop the skills I need in order to navigate those things yes but if I assume like oh we're never gonna fight and I always get that right we always meet someone who goes to I mean a friend who goes to me Jay we never fight I'm like how long have you been together because I don't I don't know anyone who never fights I get that no one has to get to like yeah the heights of fights yeah I did that I did that it doesn't have to be a heated fight but I don't know anyone who doesn't disagree there you go all right right I think that's important for people to understand yeah there's a difference yes you have some individuals out there that'll say arguing is normal it's healthy and to me it's like listen if we're talking about arguing where we're now Crossing disrespectful lines negative lines you know the way that we the tone we take with each other all these things that's not healthy yes it may happen you should be prepared for that but it does let's not normalize it just gonna keep doing this and it's it is what it is but you're right to to be with each other long enough and never have a disagreement that's extremely rare okay extremely rare and I do think that again as you mentioned we have to be ready for those moments we have to understand and going back to how we find that balance especially as men and even for women it's recognizing so for example if my partner is in a very heated moment let's say she's in her masculine right now all right she's getting rough well meeting her with more masculine is probably going to only make things worse yeah this is the time for me to be compassionate go to her hold her calm her down bring her peace in that moment you see because it we need to balance each other out same thing on the flip side if I'm all heated and I'm I'm extra passionate and then my woman now comes with that same energy that's it now where button has this is her moment to say no let me now be the one to soften the moment up bring that Sweetness in there and everybody calms down so it's learning how to feed off of each other and recognize okay they're over here let me bring it back over here and now we can work from that point and we're both good the problem is that we all see compassion and sweetness and kindness in those moments as a weakness we don't want to be that person because we see that as losing we see that as giving in we see that as us losing our power and strength in a relationship if we become the comforter or if we become the carer right like that's that's a perception that is the perception and we have to change that that is the power position so who is more powerful the person that lets the energy dictate them how they're going to react or the person that brings the energy and dictates how they're going to make this situation play out so if I'm coming in to calm it down and being all sweet because I'm trying to bring peace here I'm in the power position I'm not losing anything I'm gonna gain more peace and happiness and Harmony if I succeed in what I'm trying to do so we have to get out of that mindset of this makes us weaker and that is the big key of it that's a big problem that for a lot of women who struggle with their feminine energy that's a big issue where they feel that being feminine is weakness it's what got them taken advantage of and got them hurt but I always say it's not the feminine energy that's the problem it's who you give it to do they respect it did they honor it you know it's the same thing as a man does she respect your masculine if she doesn't then that might just be a sign you're with the wrong person but don't stop being that guy because the woman who's best for you is going to need that in those moments that that's exactly what it is is that when people have been their best selves for the wrong person that person brings out the worst in them yes right like when someone's been their best loving kindness self but someone took advantage of it that person now thinks next time I've got to be aggressive I've got to be you know powerful I've got to be strong in this way and I feel like that's kind of what most people are dealing with we know that is that you're just dealing with a wounded version of someone yes not a healed version of someone but I think people struggle to trust again and again especially when they see the same patterns in the person they're weird and I guess the question is why do we keep making the same mistakes because I feel like a lot of us keep dating the same people yeah and there's a part of us that also just keeps closing off or being more wounded it's almost like if you cut yourself you now walk around with your hand over that you don't want to get cut again and then if you lead it off and it gets cut even deeper now you're even more conscious of that and so I find that people are doing that where they're closing their heart more and more because it's been so misused and abused and I understand that I understand people don't want to be abused and misused but I guess the question is how do people find people that they know respect them so that they can be their best version or be a better version of themselves so you know you can't drive out Darkness with more Darkness you can't expose someone who's gonna hurt you by being someone who's closed off and holding back yourself we have it's kind of what we were just talking about we have to look at being vulnerable loving and open as not just well I'm setting myself to be hurt no it's how you expose people faster if I come with that energy and you cannot respect it match it then I know you don't belong here but if I hold back I give you a free pass to hold back so now we have two individuals who are hiding behind their walls because it's comfortable there but you can't really see what's what do we really have in front of us those walls are blinding you and you can't properly evaluate the situation so one we we got to get to a place of healing from our past so that we're not just walking around with the hand over the cut no you you gotta let the cup breathe you gotta let it heal all right holding on put your hand on there is delaying the process and like you said all that's gonna happen is when you finally take your hand off but you're taking it off with the wrong person and you haven't learned see what I want people to realize is your actions weren't the problem meaning you being loving sweet kind compassionate wasn't the problem it was the person separate those two things that you don't stop doing the good things now granted are there levels to this to where we have to learn again if I'm thinking about a man if you got so deeply emotional to where you kind of lost your your masculine energy and you became very needy okay you can say all right I need to continue to be loving but I know I have to learn how to draw a line I have to learn how not to cross that moment and again you only crossed it because you were unhealthy to begin with you only cross it because you were afraid to begin with once you get to that place where you're healthy and confident you won't find yourself Crossing that line anymore yeah you won't tolerate certain things anymore so we have to heal we have to be confident and we have to let our light shine so that we can expose what's in front of us easier that's a brilliant answer I I love the differentiation between how sharing your light is not the problem the person's the problem because we yeah we start to doubt whether being a good person a loving person is actually what wins in the world yeah and the truth is that it does win but it has to win with someone who can receive it and absolutely hold that space with you and share that space with you and I find that a lot of people keep giving that energy to the wrong person because we feel we can make them better right like there's this feeling of like I can change this person I can make them better I can heal them there's some of us want to fix people yeah and that means we assume the person we're with is broken and I think this is such a subconscious thing like if you're always critiquing if you're always picking at stuff with your partner chances are you don't think they're great like just now you think there's some issues with them when you think that you can fix them and they're broken tell us about that angle where now we're almost we've talked about being the loving and kind person but sometimes we're being the person that thinks we're loving and kind because we want to improve someone but that person doesn't want to improve one big problem is that what's really driving people to pick that individual is that by being the one that can upgrade you improve you I have more value here by having more value I have a false sense of security you have to appreciate me you're less likely to walk away you're less likely to cheat because you're lucky to have me I feel like I'm the prize here but those situations never really work because again you're choosing someone that is not capable of pouring into you the way you need you're basing this off of what you could do for them and that's not sustainable and you're choosing them because again you have more emotional control here what happens to so many people especially women it's something that I call the unhealthy love cycle of women where women in their first love experience outside of any childhood trauma may have experienced they're their most loving they're just out there they go all the way in but that typically happens at a younger age at an age where men are not mature enough to handle those kind of emotions that level of commitment so on and so forth so she gets hurt after she gets hurt her moment is saying to herself I will never let this happen to me again so now the woman starts to consciously or subconsciously choose men who are I don't want to say lower than hurt but essentially a man who does not take her there he's good enough to be with but I'm not that vulnerable with him he can't hurt me like that first love hurt me and so that Dynamic usually leads to picking that person I can fix I can make better who will appreciate and respect me but again it doesn't work out and many times you'll see these same situations the guy will move on to cheat on her not because and I have to say this because some women think yeah he's just being a man no not because he's a man but because you chose a man that you could never be the woman that he needed and he could never be the man that you needed once he kind of either gets what he needs from you to build himself up or the Smoke Clears from him being infatuated with you he starts to realize I'm not getting everything that I desire and now you building him up has brought him more attention from other women so now the the difference between what you're not giving him and what someone else is willing to give him becomes way clearer now the Temptation gets way stronger and he ends up doing something or she ends up cheating as well because he's safe but he doesn't fulfill her he doesn't satisfy her he he doesn't excite her in any kind of way and that's why I always said earlier like the safe choice is almost always the wrong choice but that is a function of people trying to choose these fix or uppers because they think it's going to give them some leverage there it's leverage that's it yeah it's leverage yeah how do you know when it's time to go like how do you know when it's like I feel like this is a common question where it's like how do you know when it's just I've tried everything we've tried together tried our best maybe we went to therapy maybe we got a coach or maybe you know maybe we didn't do those things how do I just know that I feel like I need to go but I'm scared of being alone yeah I'm I'm scared of dealing with the reality that I put in a lot of energy and I feel like you said this earlier but a lot of people stay in something for a lot longer than they should because they'd rather not be alone yes they'd rather not face reality they'd rather not lose two years of their life they'd rather lose two more thinking that this this should stay like how do you know when it's time to go let me first say this yes I think I think Society needs to change their thinking as far as Letting Go doesn't always mean it can't work out later it's just that it cannot work out under these circumstances all right because some people say well I feel like they're the one okay maybe they are but maybe the time is not right and it's letting go that will allow you both to do what needs to be done in your own personal lives that would allow you to come back together and have something way more amazing so that's number one thing to consider but outside of that it's when one if that person is unwilling to put in the work necessary it's time to go there's like so many times I'll I'll have a video go up about communication and someone will comment saying I've tried talking to him and he doesn't want to talk to me and in my head I'm like why are you still with them if he refuses to talk to you you've already tried there's nothing else to do but people will let it Linger on and continue why they can why they consistently complain or unhappy about this specific issue it's not gonna magically get better they're not gonna just change it just because all of a sudden they see oh it needs to change no if they're fighting it now they have no reason to change it and what people have to understand you know especially with this whole trying to fix people up healing and facing your traumas is one of the hardest things for people to do so if they already have you in their life they're essentially getting the incentive or the benefit of relationship without having to do the deeper work it's almost like if I'm at a job and the job says you need to have a master's degree to work here but we're going to hire you anyway and give you time to get that master's degree if getting that degree is super hard to you you're gonna drag that out as long as possible yeah you may never get the degree until they fire you when they fire you and you realize oh my gosh if I don't do this I'll never get this person back I'll never get this opportunity back now they might go and get it because it's very tough to walk down the path of the healing process so if they're not willing to work on it you guys have already discussed it and I think that's a big thing because there's a lot of relationships that end and the couples don't even know what the real issue was so the communication they'll say well we talked about no you guys argued you guys lashed out there wasn't a clear communication as to what the problem was what is expected how do we go about this if you've done that and I believe one of the most effective ways to do that is through a letter because I feel like verbal communication of deep issues and concerns they typically don't go well you know people get distracted they forget what they want to say the other person gets defensive they're not they're listening to rebuttal not to understand but when there's a letter involved it gives you time to get everything out you can you can evaluate your tone leave no stone unturned and now they have an opportunity to process it on their time to really take it in and then you guys can come together and discuss the letter and now it's so much easier to stay on point and get everything covered if we've done that and they're still unwilling or there's still no progress It's Time to Go yeah that's great that's great advice and I for me that's the biggest one it's like you can't make something last if only one person's working on it you can't keep hoping and waiting and wishing and and like you said that ending doesn't mean forever and often I found that two people need to grow individually to be able to grow collectively and we're forcing growing together so hard but we need space to grow and if you can't grow together chances are you need to grow apart in order to see whether you grow together again or grow for someone else and all of those options are okay but we put so much pressure on people to grow together that they grow apart yeah and actually if they chose to grow apart and grow separately they could come back together if they learn the lessons and I think that's a mistake too though sometimes people think I'm gonna go learn this lesson for this person I meet a lot of people they're like okay they broke up with me because I wasn't XYZ now I'm gonna go become XYZ to win them back yeah and I always find I'm just like well no you should go become XYZ if you think you were missing XYZ but not to win them back because you don't know what they're gonna do what's your take on people trying to win people back so I 100 agree with you like if we're trying to learn or grow it needs to be for the benefit of who we are and just whoever we deal with so was almost like if I was a bad Communicator in this relationship I shouldn't learn to better communicate for that person I need to better communicate for whoever I'm going to be with if you can't see it in that light then maybe you're looking at the wrong thing my thing is this I think it all depends on what the details of the situation was what led to the breakup what were you overlooking what was missing are these fixable issues because a lot of people are trying to win back someone where the issues are not resolved so it's like what's the point of going back we're just going to go in the same cycle all over again they're letting this idea of I miss them I don't want to be without them blind them from the fact that you two did not get along well or you two don't want the same things or YouTube just whatever it is maybe there's a lack of sexual satisfaction I don't know why I feel the need to mention that but it happens a lot of times you have to stay focused on what led to the end and can this be corrected if it can cool but as you mentioned listen correcting it does not guarantee you they're coming back and even if they will come back you don't know when they may need so you may have figured yourself out in six months they might need a year and I would argue if you guys are truly meant for each other and at the end of the year you need a year too you're just overlooking some things and you're rushing the process because you want to get back to them yeah it's I've never found a situation where it was truly only one person who had problems and the other person was squeaky clean no no you thought you were but you got some stuff too you needed to correct of course so I think we have to be honest with ourselves and just keep striving to be better and rather than focus on winning them back just become the best you because if you do and there's a true connection there the opportunity will present itself again and you too will be able to make something of it and the struggle is that when people finally make that decision to break up or let go the study showed that the parts of your brain that are activated in a breakup are the same as detoxing from cocaine right like you're literally trying to detox so you can have a craving yeah for someone that's bad for you yeah or also it says that the areas of the brain that are activated in a breakup are the areas that are the same with physical pain so if someone like punching the stomach the reason why we say like my heart feels broken is because it literally feels like something's broken yeah so when you're going through a breakup when you're feeling the craving to be with that person again studies show that eight over eighty percent of people are looking at what their exes are doing on social media right probably through a Finster account or whatever but you have to you have to know what are some of the healthiest tips that you've given to people and the people that you've worked with that have genuinely helped people move through a breaker the first thing is to ask yourself again why was I even there why am I holding on to this individual again I think sometimes we get so blinded by just the experience or our desire to have this person for whatever reason that we Overlook what was really missing or why this could not work anyway what you'll also find is and I'm sure there's probably a study on it where if you if they broke up with you you ever see a situation it happens on TV a lot where the person could be like okay I'm gonna break up with my partner they're planning on it they've been practicing in their head right it took them a couple weeks to muster up the strength they're about to do it and then the partner breaks up with them yeah now it's oh my gosh I gotta get them back yeah so it's like you just forgot this whole time that was your plan yeah it just gave you the past to do it but now because we don't like to be the one being let go of now we're fighting hard to get it back yeah so we have to really not fall into these little traps that happen to us as human beings our brains just playing tricks on us or something where we confuse these emotions for oh my gosh I must really love them or even like you said you go into that detox and because you miss I always tell people no matter how bad the relationship was there's always good moments so if you're trying to break free you can't just let your brain focus on the good moments you have to remind yourself why this doesn't work but if you keep focusing on the good you start to make yourself think oh because I missed this good moment I must miss them and there's this quote that says sometimes you're not missing the person you're missing the feeling so you've got to be able to differentiate those two things so getting back to how we get over these breakups is recognizing why were we really there to begin with you know could this actually work the next thing is you know I'm a huge believer that a lot of times a breakup is a blessing in disguise even if there is a chance that you two can work together or this is the one for you you may have needed this time to re-evaluate and get things in order something is obviously wrong even if you it may be something as deep as because I've seen situations where everything was going amazingly well on the surface and the person broke up with them let's say the woman lets go of the man so to the man that's really confusing but what it was is that that woman she had not healed from her past relationships and this relationship being so good was scaring her and what happens is the the better you are the scarier it becomes for her she's looking for something to be wrong she has to validate her fear somehow wow when she can't find it she'll either sabotage the relationship or she'll run from it So to that man it may seem like this is so unfair which yeah it sucks but if this woman didn't break up with you now you were inevitably gonna face this same ending but at a worse time yeah all right this is still best that is happening now at least if she can go do what she needs to do there's a chance for this to come back around later but it's hard for us to see it in the moment so I think just really we also have to focus on our healing whenever a breakup happens the mistake we make is that we think it's about healing from the breakup no it's healing from everything you've been through you've probably been sleeping under the rug your childhood trauma for years maybe the last two three relationships whatever it is so and and not healing from those things is contributing to your struggle to get past this breakup and contributing to why you even chose this person to begin with I'm a huge believer that if you haven't healed you are 90 likely to choose the wrong person yeah it's just too difficult to pick that person that you truly love and can truly love you and accept that level of vulnerability when you have still not resolved your past traumas and past hurts yeah so to me that's the next big thing is just focus on your healing process because in that process you will also be able to see more clearly if this is really for you or not like walking around unhealed is like walking around with broken glasses you you can't see straight no matter how hard you try but healing will clear up your vision really really fast and now it'd be like oh wait a minute I didn't belong there yeah you know thank God the broke breakup happened you know now I'm in a better place I move forward so to me I think and I would say in addition to those things is just have an accountability partner whether that's friend coach therapist someone that can help keep you in check help remind you what you need to do someone that you know you have to talk to and update what's going on so you feel like okay I don't want to come back so I'm saying I'm doing the same thing over and over again it doesn't guarantee success but it helps it helps move the needle some so I would highly encourage that that one mindset you spoke about that that changes everything and it hit me today I was just thinking if we were just able in a moment to recognize that something painful now was going to be good for us in five years time that would change so many things in our life yes but we're so poor at dealing with current pain yeah even if it means future joy that we just can't accept that I have to go through this like in everything right like knowing that someone breaking up with you just saved you 10 years of a wasted life is so much more than knowing you're gonna have to go through a few months of pain and 10 months of pain maybe it's a bit longer maybe it's two three years but we just have to get our head around that that sometimes the best things that happen to you are protecting more of your life than the pain that they're causing you need the Peace of knowing I did what I needed to do that's it yeah because anytime you feel like well maybe I could have done this but I could have done that leaves the door open for doubt do it well exactly so it's like and that's why I'm such a big believer in you know there's people who say well once they're done they're done they'll just move on and I'm like no no Express Yourself get everything off your chest because you don't need anything to linger and you questioning well what if I did this different no make sure speak your full piece and now you can say all right I did what I had to do it is what it is I move forward and I mean it makes it easier it may not make it a hundred percent you know not an issue whatsoever but it's gonna be easier and also also for me that's why like my relationship with God is so important because that's where I find my peace in dealing with a situation that doesn't work out the way I want to I always tell myself okay if this isn't working out God has something better for me you know if this is happening right now there's a purpose because I know if I followed his guidance throughout this process there's no need for me to question why is this the current outcome there's a reason for this and I've been through these things enough times to see as you mentioned the reward is going to come it may come next week it may come years from now it will come and I'll be able to see how it all connected yeah Stefan it's been incredible talking to you man this has been such a great back-to-back flowing conversation uh we end every on purpose episode with the final five which is like a rapid fire which means every question has to be answered with one word to one sentence maximum okay so here are your final five the first question is what's the best relationship advice you've ever received or heard or given it is to love fully lovefully and be yourself because as I said earlier that's how you will expose quicker who is for you and who isn't for you second question what is the worst relationship advice you've ever heard or received get under someone to get over someone [Laughter] uh question number three uh how would you defin	I'm scared of being alone yeah I'm I'm scared of dealing with the reality that I put in a lot of energy and I feel like you said this earlier but a lot of people stay in something for a lot longer than they should because they'd rather not be alone yes they'd rather not face reality they'd rather not lose two years of their life they'd rather lose two more thinking that this this should stay like how do you know when it's time to go let me first say this yes I think I think Society needs to change their thinking as far as Letting Go doesn't always mean it can't work out later it's just that it cannot work out under these circumstances all right because some people say well I feel like they're the one okay maybe they are but maybe the time is not right and it's letting go that will allow you both to do what needs to be done in your own personal lives that would allow you to come back together and have something way more amazing so that's number one thing to consider but outside of that it's when one if that person is unwilling to put in the work necessary it's time to go there's like so many times I'll I'll have a video go up about communication and someone will comment saying I've tried talking to him and he doesn't want to talk to me and in my head	-2	6	4	I'm scared of being alone yeah I'm I'm scared of dealing with the reality that I put in a lot of energy and I feel like you said this earlier but a lot of people stay in something for a lot longer than they should because they'd rather not be alone yes they'd rather not face reality they'd rather not lose two years of their life they'd rather lose two more thinking that this this should stay like how do you know when it's time to go	let me first say this yes I think I think Society needs to change their thinking as far as Letting Go doesn't always mean it can't work out later it's just that it cannot work out under these circumstances all right because some people say well I feel like they're the one okay maybe they are but maybe the time is not right and it's letting go that will allow you both to do what needs to be done in your own personal lives that would allow you to come back together and have something way more amazing so that's number one thing to consider but outside of that it's when one if that person is unwilling to put in the work necessary it's time to go	-5,-2,-3	8,4,5	-5	-2	-3	8	4	5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPQBcb9wf8Q	4,056	mPQBcb9wf8Q	2023-03-27 00:00:00	you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you're wasting your time the best-selling author and host the number one Health and Wellness podcast on purpose with Jay Shetty what are the signs that someone deeply loves you because I feel like we live in this world where we're always wondering do they love me do they like me do they really like me are they really into me how do you know when you deeply love someone and when someone deeply loves you how do you even know so I'm gonna start with an answer that people probably won't expect to me the first key is do you truly love them because look at it like this to me a lot of people get caught up in infatuation um they have unhealthy attachments they have different motivations to why they decided this is the person that I want and that can make them feel like they're in love but to me true love flows both ways it's not a one-sided thing so when you can say I I'm not into them like that if we look deep into that situation I can almost guarantee what we'll find is infatuation attachment something else but when you can say no I feel it too I'm deeply in love with them I think that's your first key because without that nothing else matters because a lot of people are choosing Partners based off of what they love me so much so I assume it's safe here and this is a good choice to make but the safe choice is usually the wrong choice and a lot of these people select this individual thinking everything's going to be okay but because you're not really into them you can never be what they need and they were never truly what you needed which is why you never even got to that level with them so to choose them without first evaluating do you truly love them would not be wise yeah that's that's a great question and I think people struggle with that question too because I think we think of love as so many different things wrapped into one for example I could think I love someone because of how they treat me I could think I love someone because they have one quality that I really wish I had or I could love someone because I think that they're out of my league and they give me a bit of attention yeah and so what we think is love is so complex and so wide that we never stop to ask ourselves like what does love mean like what's the definition of love like how do I Define love so how do you define love and how do you encourage other people to create their definitions of Love well for me first off is always God is love and then when we take it from there love is about kindness compassion patience understanding a willingness to be selfless important to that individual but I think what's also important for people to understand is when we're trying to apply it to romantic relationships we have to understand that there's other ingredients that are necessary before we can move forward so you could love someone dearly but if they are not emotionally ready because maybe they haven't healed from their past maybe there's still some things that need to work out in their life then it wouldn't be time to move forward in a relationship with them and we have this bad habit of the minute we feel like there's love there we want to move forward exactly and as you mentioned we can get caught up sometimes in but we love them because of what they do for us but what are you prepared to do for them love is about giving all right so we have to ask ourselves okay do we know what their needs are are we willing to fulfill those needs because if not maybe this wasn't love maybe it just felt good in the moment maybe you got caught up in the hype and that's okay it happens to almost all of us if not all of us at some point in life but we have to just be real very clear with ourselves about what's really driving the intention right now but I think all those things I mentioned is what encompasses love of and that's like the foundation of it and then from there we have to look at some other things to see how we can move forward so many times like you you convince yourself something's love and what I find really interesting is that so many people fall in love too fast and no one wants to go for the slow patient understanding love which is what love requires you just said love is kind love is patient love is understanding those things take time I think those things take time to nurture and to to make sure that we're doing it correctly for each other so it's about learning each other's Love Languages and how we make it work in within that Dynamic I think also because so many people are not used to dealing with emotions at on that level being that vulnerable people mishandle it all right so it takes time for us to get to a place so we understand how to manage this and work through this however I think that I'm a huge believer in connection and I believe connection is like your spirit recognizing its match and it's very instant when you speak to couples who said they experience a connection they'll tell you first conversation first time meeting first date first week it was pretty fast so to me the the recognizing of something deeper being here can happen very quickly but how we now cultivate that and how we move forward is where we need to take our time and make sure we're not rushing and overlooking certain important issues that need to be discussed and addressed first to me it's the understanding of chemistry versus compatibility and the idea that there needs to be a spark there needs to be a connection that I feel with someone like you're saying on a deeper level but I find that I find that most people are not Adept and knowing whether the connection they feel with someone is deeper or physical yeah like I would say that it's easy to it you can often feel a spark with if you meet a lot of people you can feel a spot with a lot of people but that doesn't mean that they're the right person to build a relationship absolutely right yes so it's connection to me is a very rare occurrence right yes so I feel that people who've actually experienced it they can tell you maybe once in their life if you're lucky two times maybe all right but it's not this thing that happens with everybody whereas chemistry uh feeling of spark these things can happen with a lot of different people yeah so I do think there's there's this education that's needed to understand how we differentiate these things so that we don't confuse them because I see a lot of people take that chemistry and think oh this is it this is the one it's like but you had chemistry with the last five people why is this one the one and not them so I do think we have to be careful with that yeah I think so so we're on the same page there's three things there's connection on the deeper level there's chemistry which is like the spark on a more superficial level and then there's compatibility which is like what makes get lost and I can relate to that with my wife I definitely felt so I I'm one of those people who I kind of knew from the first few moments when I met my wife before she was my wife was like I was like yeah this is my person like I felt that way yeah for sure I felt that connection and there was chemistry there too but it had to be turned into compatibility in order to create a long lasting relationship we've been together for 10 years we're still learning building going through everything but that was a big part of it so that I can get behind is do you see it that way too or is there something different in so how do you see it believe it or not I used to make compatibility the least important but that was because I was looking at it the wrong way once I kind of looked at the definition again and compatibility is about two people coexisting in harmony yeah then I was like okay no you you have to have that I just I got caught up more so in like let's say a dating site says okay we're gonna decide who's compatible so I view compatible as like an on the paper it looks good it's supposed to match but you can have a lot of people who are supposed to be compatible and it doesn't work absolutely so I think that it's compatibility is that add-on once we have the connection and the chemistry now we have to create that Harmony which is the compatibility yes I agree with you and and it is interesting how that word compatibility is thrown around and you're so right that compatibility on paper doesn't mean compatibility in real life exactly and to me compatibility really has another word inside of it which is like adaptability and that deeper understanding of an individual where you know how much you're willing to adapt around certain parts of the relationship but we'll get to that I think a lot of people like you know and and that's where we got into this conversation around what is slow a lot of people are waiting to feel like is this person wasting my time are they the one and so they don't have a deeper connection maybe they had that spark of chemistry and now that's kind of subsided how do you know if someone's wasting your time how do you know if you're letting yourself be used or wasted in that way so to me again I think it always starts with self and you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you because just use an example let's say you're a woman and the only reason why you're holding on to this guy is because he's a nice guy you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you figure let me try to make it work you're wasting your time this is where you're setting yourself up for disaster every single time so if it's not born out of a true connection love a genuine desire you really like this individual of course there's always things we have to work through but is the foundation strong enough for us to say okay we can make something special here and I think once we are honest with ourselves that kind of helps answer the question because sometimes we get so caught up trying to animal lies the other individual that is like we get in our heads and now we're missing the mark on what's really important here and we can't always say for sure what's going on with them I will say that in general if this person isn't willing to talk about things they're wasting your time if they're not willing to address or correct things that have been talked about they're wasting your time if you guys aren't on the same page about what you want and where you want to go in life wasting time so there are some things I think we can just look at and say listen this is pointless here but a lot of times and I have to say this especially for women women's intuition is extremely powerful I'm a huge believer in it and I feel like women know very early this isn't it but they rationalize reasons to convince themselves to give this man a chance and this again is a waste of time because it just doesn't work I've seen people turn what should have been maybe a couple weeks of dating into years of being married to someone they were not happy with all because they did not listen to themselves from the beginning they knew what it was but they just could not accept it for what it was yeah and I love that point on intuition it's almost like when a relationship finally ends a lot of us think to ourselves I knew they weren't right yeah like I knew it I knew that they weren't the one but you just didn't listen to that part of yourself yes so so let's break it down for people let's help people out we started talking about three very important words connection which you defined chemistry which we've defined in compatibility which we've defined how do people know the difference between connection and chemistry when they meet someone because I find that the science shows that you're experiencing dopamine and cortisol at the same times you're experiencing the reward chemical and stress chemical at the same time which gives you that chemistry feeling which is the feeling of butterflies in your stomach or like do they like me are they into me what should I wear that kind of feeling but then you're talking about a deeper connection how do you hear the difference because I think a lot of us just get swept up in the feeling of I'm So Into that person they're so into me how do you know so I think one is are you even being yourself or can you be yourself with this individual if if you're presenting your representative then this is not a real connection this is them falling for that person that you're presenting but that's not real so to me you have you should be already being yourself but with that person you have a connection with it's a more natural flow we don't have to force it we just feel so much more comfortable around them I think in addition to that is when you when you find yourself all caught up in the moment and caught up in that chemistry again you have to ask yourself what am I really attaching myself to what about what do I really like about this individual what I find is that when it's really about chemistry we're still on the surface you don't really know about them yet you just know you guys had a good time maybe you had fun at this event you guys were able to talk about a lot of different things which is great which is gonna also be important if there is a connection however do you even know what college did they want do you know what kind of Life they want to live you know are you guys really on the same page I think connection is our paths align our purpose is align so for us to align we have to have a deeper understanding of where we're headed and can we head there together so so that's why I think though you may feel it or you may feel like you're feeling it you have to do your due diligence to dig deeper to find out okay is this just I got caught up on the surface or there is something real here yeah and I think once we ask enough questions because I think that's the other big problem we have this experience where we feel this chemistry we're so excited and now we're afraid to ask questions because we don't want to blow up the fantasy yes you know what I'm saying we're just like no no I want to keep believing this is great so let me not ask anything let me not run this person away let me not rock the boat but that's going to be what tells us if this is real or not yes I think you're I think you've hit on something there like we're so scared of losing someone that we're okay with not asking important questions and discovering important truths that actually define whether this relationship is going to last absolutely and that is ultimately going back to your point earlier that is ultimately you not being yourself right you're losing yourself scared that you're going to lose the other person so you're okay with not being yourself do you think it's ever okay this is a funny question I think but I have to ask you because I think it's a healthy discussion do you think it's ever okay to present different sides of yourself in order to attract someone or do you think that you're ultimately setting yourself up for failure in a relationship almost like I think a lot of people they may not become someone completely different but I think a lot of people are like oh I'm gonna show my smart side because it will attract this person or I'm gonna show my this side because they're like that are you saying any of that kind of molding is unhealthy or do you think there's room for that I think anything that is not sustainable is unhealthy so look at it as if I'm a man and I'm meeting this woman I want to impress her so I'm like okay I'm gonna try to spend all my money take a nice five-star restaurant all these things but deep inside I prefer a more simple lifestyle you know I don't like all that extra stuff okay that's horrible that's a sale for disaster that's unhealthy because you can't sustain what you're presenting to that individual that's gonna draw them in so whatever it is another like common example is you'll have women who love to communicate they want to be able to talk to you every single day but because they're afraid of coming off a certain kind of way they'll hold back on their communication so now they'll make it seem like they're okay with talking every now and then we don't always have to text and then this guy falls for that he falls for this low standard I won't call low standard but not having such a high expectation of him when it comes to communication then he finally gets with the woman her true self is going to come out at some point no one can suppress their true self forever it comes out and now it's like what is this I did not sign up for this now we're fighting now we're stressed because you want him to call you more he was used to you not being worried about it so much that's why it's going to always not work out so it's extremely unhealthy unless we're presenting a side of us that is truly us and we can sustain it you've hit on something again that that at the beginning of relationships we often display unrealistic standards and we set those yes and then when things shift and now you're back in reality again the other person's like but wait a minute I thought you were really into me and I even went through that with my wife when we first met I was able to spend pretty much every day with her because I didn't have a job and so I was looking for work I was applying I would go see her at her College every day and I would spend the day with her and I'd be in the library applying for jobs while she was studying yeah and I could see it every day and I think I saw every day potentially for like six months maybe every single day five days a week at least and then when I got a job that wasn't the case anymore because I was at work now and I'd set this unrealistic expectation that we could see each other all the time and even in the beginning I would see her all the time because I'd spend time with her family but we wouldn't spend time with my family because I hadn't told my family yet and so now that my family knew we were trying to split the time and all of a sudden it was like wait a minute we used to spend time at my house and so even in little things like that it took a bit of adapting because I'd set a false standard in our relationship and then thankfully my wife was adapting and she understood and she got it and it was fine but I think for so many people you set unrealistic expectations in who you are yes and that's hard to come back from absolutely yeah and that's why it's so important for us to know who we are so that we can present the real from the jump you know because again A lot of times people you know this idea that we're always changing yes I do think we're always evolving but some of the big shifts that you see are is not because that's just the way life is it's because you did take the time to figure yourself out first and then you got with this person and now you want them to adjust now thank God for you she was able to adjust but there's a lot of people that they can't handle that yeah and now everything falls apart from there so that's why yeah we have to be very careful with what we're presenting from the beginning yeah it's I I agree with you on that that we think people change but actually they just start to understand themselves exactly they went from being completely unconscious about who they were you met an unconscious version of a person yeah and now you think they're changing but they just became conscious of who they are absolutely and but the thing is Stefan as you know like Society doesn't encourage that time of getting to know yourself right when you're young you're not trained in how to think about who you want to be you're trained in thinking about what you want to I do it's about your job it's about your career you're not thinking about who you are as a human being or as a person so how do we in this Society where understanding who you are is not clear it's not encouraged where where does one start or where have you kind of found great insights in trying to discover who we are I would love to see more parents encouraging their children to explore how they're feeling about who they are like what I have found is a lot of people who let's say I I had one client where she wanted to be an actress when she was a little kid uh but parents kind of push in a different direction now she's like a social worker but her desire is still to be an actress like the things that they they wanted to do they they want to do as an adult now you can find back in their childhood in a lot of cases so I feel like too many people have stifled their children's growth in certain areas with limited ideas of well this can't make money or this wouldn't be a good look for the family or whatever the case may be it's like no let them walk in it and see for themselves if that's really where they belong outside of that for me I think the big thing is getting in tune spiritually I'm just a huge believer in that I feel like me finding myself was when I went into what I call my Wilderness period I kind of just shut everything off that I was doing because I used to be all over having fun partying all these different things things and then God kind of slapped me upside my head and I had to like really pull away from everything and go deeper from within and it felt like a process of breaking me down to build me right back up and that's when I start to see things clearer because what I realized is the world is filled with distractions and it's the distractions why we can't see ourselves for who we really are if we simply shut off the distractions long enough you will learn a lot so even if someone just took a year off don't worry you know limit the TV you're watching limit the music you're listening to limit all the internet stuff just really go deeper within yourself spend more time alone spend more time you know thinking and processing you will learn a lot because again a lot of it is it isn't a problem of we don't know ourselves we are not aware and we're not willing to accept and once we allow ourselves to do those two things become aware and then accept it we become free yeah I I mean I agree with you I think that I've always been a big proponent of solitude to understand who you are because as soon as you have another person you now have another person's opinions you have to filter yes as soon as you have another person in front of you you have another person's judgments to filter and so now you can't even say what you truly think about something because you're constantly thinking what does that person think about me and my beliefs and so understanding your beliefs in solitude allows you to be really clear about what your values and beliefs are and and that's what it's there for I think when people get into if we switch to compatibility again the idea we talked about the difference between connection and chemistry but compatibility is really interesting because a lot of people believe that relationships should be hard and they require hard work and a lot of people believe relationships should be easy and everything should just flow where have you kind of discovered your lens on that Spectrum so okay there's a there's a couple ways to look at it I think that most relationships and I'll even be more specific most relations that involve connection and true love are typically hard not because relationships have to be hard but because most people have been hurt by something in their life are holding on to past traumas haven't resolved it once they meet this individual that they feel so strongly about it is scary this is where things get difficult it's the difficultness in how do I handle this how do I manage this you'll have people feel like they're losing themselves but they're not losing themselves their true self is coming out and it's it's the self that's been hiding behind that wall they've been using for quote-unquote protection but I always say the same module to protect you the same as blocking your blessings so now they're being pulled from behind it it's it's makes them feel some kind of way and again people start to mishandle things you also have situations where people are getting bad advice like I'm gonna give one example um there's this uh book called The Game by Neil Strauss I don't know if you ever read that book yeah it was great Neil you know you you answer that world to pick up artistry we learned it and he was great with the women but then once he found that woman that he fell in love with all that stuff doesn't work anymore so you have a lot of men being taught how to handle women in general but they don't understand that's not how you handle the woman you truly love and so now again you have individuals who though they are truly in love with this person they constantly mishandle it with bad Guidance with fear and all these things this is what makes it hard and and I even think that a lot of times the people who are supposed to be together sometimes will have the hardest time getting together but I believe that once we're able to conquer that part of it and actually come together it's not hard yes it takes work I believe we have to be conscious and mindful of how we treat our partners how we show up being willing to listen but I think it's so much easier to do those things with someone you have a connection with and you're truly in love with it's gonna always feel ten times harder when you're in the wrong relationship and I would argue the vast majority of people are in the wrong relationship that's why they're seeing it be so difficult and when you see this whole it's easy typically it's easy because you have two people who are not digging deeper they're they're trying to write out that chemistry we talked about earlier for as long as possible all right so yeah it seems like it's great it's easy no issues but it doesn't really work like that because they're just not facing the reality of the situation so I think we we have to understand that there is going to be some bumps in the road because of all the things that people have been through but once we're able to come together and we know this is our partner this is who we want to share our life with it can get so much better yeah and do you do you think that people have just been given generally the wrong education on how to deal with another person in their life 100 yeah because unfortunately a lot of individuals are giving advice from a bit or hurt place there and and they're trying to disguise it as I'm just looking out for you no you you have inhaled and you cannot properly guide them in a positive and loving Manner and I think that a lot of people you know I always say it's funny how we'll spend a lot of time getting educated for the for the sake of our careers and business but we don't do the same for relationships and yet relationships arguably are even more important than that career business and even if it's not a romantic relationship just relationships in general your ability to coexist with others connect with others is extremely important if you want that business to succeed you have to learn how to establish business relationships there's no way around it so we have to learn how to talk to people listen to people you know what I'm saying and just make make things work when we come together with other individuals so I definitely think that we're just lacking in a lot of education and again too many because there's so many voices on the internet now there's just so much bad advice being given and and the individuals giving it they may be giving like let's say 80 of the advice is accurate but it's that 20 that's completely off that can derail everything and that's the stuff that people are gravitating to and this is causing a lot of problems can you give us some example of some of the like not specific people or anything like that I just mean like could you give example of bad advice and what about it is bad or unhealthy for people to try and put into practice okay so one thing I heard recently was an individual told uh said some of the best advice you can give to men is to not fall in love you know basically just find a woman you want to be with and kind of keep it there the reason why I view that as horrible advice is because you sit down with any man who's lived enough life they will all be able to say there's been at least one time they fail deeply for a woman all right the problem isn't falling deep before a woman the problem is we don't know how to handle it once we get there the problem is because we're not accustomed to handling and processing our emotions a certain kind of way and being this vulnerable we don't understand what's going to be required of us in that moment we also kind of lose sight of because I'm a big believer in masculine and feminine energy and I believe that if she was attracted to you because of that masculine energy that you give off and now you become this emotional wreck because you don't know how to handle all these feelings you have for her well you start to become less attractive to her and it's not that it's not fixable it's fixable but again a lack of understanding and awareness derails the situation so rather than telling men don't fall in love because it's inevitable let's teach them how we walk in love how we make what I call Loving in your masculine how you maintain that energy and still be able to pour into that woman in a way that allows relationship to flourish yeah and how does that work when I think obviously a lot of people in that example that you're giving if if the person is attracted to someone because of their masculine energy but at the same time they want them to be empathetic and compassionate and kind which are generally seen as more feminine energy how does that person balance the two or is that is that not how you're explaining is that no it's about balance so we have to understand we all have masculine and feminine of course within us I'm a Believer in one must be your dominant energy the other is the one you tap into when necessary so as a man you can walk in your masculine and in those moments tap into those things but you can't just stay there all the time all right you can't just become this needy emotional God that's not going to work in the vast majority of cases and so what happens is there's this messaging that's being thrown out there that women don't like good guys I don't believe that's what it is I believe that women become less attracted when you don't know how to exude and walk in your masculine energy it's and and we're hiding behind the label of good guy you can be a good guy and still exude masculine energy and that's the thing and we also think that oh they like bad boys no if you look deeper it's really the masculine energy that that quote-unquote bad boy exudes but what they desire is a mixture of both the same way that we would want a mixture of both we would want a loving sweet woman family woman whatever or and if you're a guy who wants a mask and woman cool but you don't want her to be just that you know you want her to have the ability to tap into that other side when necessary I think we all desire that balance in our partner and I think it's healthy and if we just learn how to maintain it and how to nurture it we would see greater success in relationships yeah what are some of the skills with with mastering that energy that you think we're missing out on and balancing that energy and knowing when to be which and because the reason why it's hard is I think we live in a binary world right like you feel like you have to choose like you're either a bad boy or you're a good girl you are a doer or you're a thinker you're uh winner or you're a loser right like we think like that and some people go okay you need to be masculine or I can be feminine and I I definitely relate to what you were saying like I believe that there is a lot about me that is massively masculine in energy using that language and terminology my drive my ambition how I work my strategic mind and at the same time I consider myself to have a lot of great feminine energy and qualities where it comes to like empowering others and nurturing and the ability to hold deep compassionate space and be empathetic which are all powerful qualities for for everyone right Beyond gender they're powerful qualities and I appreciate and it's taken a long time to know when to be which and it's still and I still make mistakes right there's still sometimes like I should have been more assertive I should have been more affectionate so we live in a world that finds it hard to hold two opposing ideas at the same time yeah we don't know how to do that in any sphere of life let alone within ourselves so what are some of the skills that we can learn in order to nurture both those energies in a healthy way inside of ourselves so I think one it's going to require a lot of if you're already in a relationship it's going to boil down to a lot of transparency and communication you know her if you're that man trying to understand that woman and when you can walk in those two energies her being willing to be honest and open about you know what this was too much over here or I needed some of this over here and in time you're going to become more aware and understanding it's going to be like second nature to you you won't have to overthink it and I think part of it is not overthinking it it's kind of like being ourselves but understanding that we have to learn when this is doing too much and vice versa I also think that in reality for a lot of men especially uh when we're talking about relationships and kind of losing that masculine energy the the underlying issue is fear all right when we become so afraid of losing this woman we lose ourselves and so a lot of men now fall into this very feminine needy space because they're just afraid we have to learn that listen like to me I feel if your partner thinks you're never gonna walk away from them no matter what they do you've lost that's that's a horrible place to be in we have to get to a place where we both understand that as long as we show up the way that we need to show up for each other we have each other's back we will be here but neither of us will tolerate an unhealthy relationship and someone who blatantly does not want to work on making this better I would want my the woman I'm with to feel that way and I need to feel that way once we understand that and you have the confidence of I can walk away if I have to that shifts your energy right there in itself and now you don't find yourself falling into that place where again you start to look a lot more unattractive or for some men they become yes men in their relationships thinking that makes her happy that's turning her off she doesn't want you to be her yes man she wants you to stand up for yourself sometimes give your opinion give your perspective she wants to be able to you know if anything be able to have discussions with you about these things not just you say whatever you want whatever you want whatever you want over time it becomes a problem so I think that once we conquer that fear once we create a space where we can talk about these moments and not feel some kind of way I think sometimes men are not they struggle with taking the criticism from their partner men and women we we all do when we feel when we have actual feelings for someone you know we don't care about you it's not as big of a deal but we're emotionally invested we're more sensitive to it but we have to understand that these criticisms are for the sake of making things better and strengthening this relationship so once we can get to that place it's going to be so much easier to grow in it and then I think it's just a matter of understanding that it's this balance isn't just for your relationship so look at it like from a sports perspective if I'm on a basketball team there may be moments where I need to take the lead and recognize all right everyone else is down someone needs to step up this is my moment and then there's other moments where I realize okay let's say we already have a team captain let me show them that I can follow serve do what needs to be done so that the team can win it's just becoming aware of what the moment requires you know and again I think the more in tune we get the more in tune we get with ourselves and the more in tune we get with our partner the easier it becomes to find that balance that's the challenge right the challenge is just how much patience we have with ourselves and others to realize that you walked into an imbalance unbalanced situation and now it's like how much patience how much time are we going to give it to get to that because the challenge is I think we walk into a situation thinking it's perfect whereas we should be walking into a relationship knowing it's imperfect absolutely and we're going to learn and figure it out together and I think that's what sets us up for failure is because we walk into it going it's perfect and deep down we know it isn't but somehow we gloss over it whereas I find when I know we're gonna fight when I know we're gonna argue and I know there's going to be disagreements that sets me up to develop the skills I need in order to navigate those things yes but if I assume like oh we're never gonna fight and I always get that right we always meet someone who goes to I mean a friend who goes to me Jay we never fight I'm like how long have you been together because I don't I don't know anyone who never fights I get that no one has to get to like yeah the heights of fights yeah I did that I did that it doesn't have to be a heated fight but I don't know anyone who doesn't disagree there you go all right right I think that's important for people to understand yeah there's a difference yes you have some individuals out there that'll say arguing is normal it's healthy and to me it's like listen if we're talking about arguing where we're now Crossing disrespectful lines negative lines you know the way that we the tone we take with each other all these things that's not healthy yes it may happen you should be prepared for that but it does let's not normalize it just gonna keep doing this and it's it is what it is but you're right to to be with each other long enough and never have a disagreement that's extremely rare okay extremely rare and I do think that again as you mentioned we have to be ready for those moments we have to understand and going back to how we find that balance especially as men and even for women it's recognizing so for example if my partner is in a very heated moment let's say she's in her masculine right now all right she's getting rough well meeting her with more masculine is probably going to only make things worse yeah this is the time for me to be compassionate go to her hold her calm her down bring her peace in that moment you see because it we need to balance each other out same thing on the flip side if I'm all heated and I'm I'm extra passionate and then my woman now comes with that same energy that's it now where button has this is her moment to say no let me now be the one to soften the moment up bring that Sweetness in there and everybody calms down so it's learning how to feed off of each other and recognize okay they're over here let me bring it back over here and now we can work from that point and we're both good the problem is that we all see compassion and sweetness and kindness in those moments as a weakness we don't want to be that person because we see that as losing we see that as giving in we see that as us losing our power and strength in a relationship if we become the comforter or if we become the carer right like that's that's a perception that is the perception and we have to change that that is the power position so who is more powerful the person that lets the energy dictate them how they're going to react or the person that brings the energy and dictates how they're going to make this situation play out so if I'm coming in to calm it down and being all sweet because I'm trying to bring peace here I'm in the power position I'm not losing anything I'm gonna gain more peace and happiness and Harmony if I succeed in what I'm trying to do so we have to get out of that mindset of this makes us weaker and that is the big key of it that's a big problem that for a lot of women who struggle with their feminine energy that's a big issue where they feel that being feminine is weakness it's what got them taken advantage of and got them hurt but I always say it's not the feminine energy that's the problem it's who you give it to do they respect it did they honor it you know it's the same thing as a man does she respect your masculine if she doesn't then that might just be a sign you're with the wrong person but don't stop being that guy because the woman who's best for you is going to need that in those moments that that's exactly what it is is that when people have been their best selves for the wrong person that person brings out the worst in them yes right like when someone's been their best loving kindness self but someone took advantage of it that person now thinks next time I've got to be aggressive I've got to be you know powerful I've got to be strong in this way and I feel like that's kind of what most people are dealing with we know that is that you're just dealing with a wounded version of someone yes not a healed version of someone but I think people struggle to trust again and again especially when they see the same patterns in the person they're weird and I guess the question is why do we keep making the same mistakes because I feel like a lot of us keep dating the same people yeah and there's a part of us that also just keeps closing off or being more wounded it's almost like if you cut yourself you now walk around with your hand over that you don't want to get cut again and then if you lead it off and it gets cut even deeper now you're even more conscious of that and so I find that people are doing that where they're closing their heart more and more because it's been so misused and abused and I understand that I understand people don't want to be abused and misused but I guess the question is how do people find people that they know respect them so that they can be their best version or be a better version of themselves so you know you can't drive out Darkness with more Darkness you can't expose someone who's gonna hurt you by being someone who's closed off and holding back yourself we have it's kind of what we were just talking about we have to look at being vulnerable loving and open as not just well I'm setting myself to be hurt no it's how you expose people faster if I come with that energy and you cannot respect it match it then I know you don't belong here but if I hold back I give you a free pass to hold back so now we have two individuals who are hiding behind their walls because it's comfortable there but you can't really see what's what do we really have in front of us those walls are blinding you and you can't properly evaluate the situation so one we we got to get to a place of healing from our past so that we're not just walking around with the hand over the cut no you you gotta let the cup breathe you gotta let it heal all right holding on put your hand on there is delaying the process and like you said all that's gonna happen is when you finally take your hand off but you're taking it off with the wrong person and you haven't learned see what I want people to realize is your actions weren't the problem meaning you being loving sweet kind compassionate wasn't the problem it was the person separate those two things that you don't stop doing the good things now granted are there levels to this to where we have to learn again if I'm thinking about a man if you got so deeply emotional to where you kind of lost your your masculine energy and you became very needy okay you can say all right I need to continue to be loving but I know I have to learn how to draw a line I have to learn how not to cross that moment and again you only crossed it because you were unhealthy to begin with you only cross it because you were afraid to begin with once you get to that place where you're healthy and confident you won't find yourself Crossing that line anymore yeah you won't tolerate certain things anymore so we have to heal we have to be confident and we have to let our light shine so that we can expose what's in front of us easier that's a brilliant answer I I love the differentiation between how sharing your light is not the problem the person's the problem because we yeah we start to doubt whether being a good person a loving person is actually what wins in the world yeah and the truth is that it does win but it has to win with someone who can receive it and absolutely hold that space with you and share that space with you and I find that a lot of people keep giving that energy to the wrong person because we feel we can make them better right like there's this feeling of like I can change this person I can make them better I can heal them there's some of us want to fix people yeah and that means we assume the person we're with is broken and I think this is such a subconscious thing like if you're always critiquing if you're always picking at stuff with your partner chances are you don't think they're great like just now you think there's some issues with them when you think that you can fix them and they're broken tell us about that angle where now we're almost we've talked about being the loving and kind person but sometimes we're being the person that thinks we're loving and kind because we want to improve someone but that person doesn't want to improve one big problem is that what's really driving people to pick that individual is that by being the one that can upgrade you improve you I have more value here by having more value I have a false sense of security you have to appreciate me you're less likely to walk away you're less likely to cheat because you're lucky to have me I feel like I'm the prize here but those situations never really work because again you're choosing someone that is not capable of pouring into you the way you need you're basing this off of what you could do for them and that's not sustainable and you're choosing them because again you have more emotional control here what happens to so many people especially women it's something that I call the unhealthy love cycle of women where women in their first love experience outside of any childhood trauma may have experienced they're their most loving they're just out there they go all the way in but that typically happens at a younger age at an age where men are not mature enough to handle those kind of emotions that level of commitment so on and so forth so she gets hurt after she gets hurt her moment is saying to herself I will never let this happen to me again so now the woman starts to consciously or subconsciously choose men who are I don't want to say lower than hurt but essentially a man who does not take her there he's good enough to be with but I'm not that vulnerable with him he can't hurt me like that first love hurt me and so that Dynamic usually leads to picking that person I can fix I can make better who will appreciate and respect me but again it doesn't work out and many times you'll see these same situations the guy will move on to cheat on her not because and I have to say this because some women think yeah he's just being a man no not because he's a man but because you chose a man that you could never be the woman that he needed and he could never be the man that you needed once he kind of either gets what he needs from you to build himself up or the Smoke Clears from him being infatuated with you he starts to realize I'm not getting everything that I desire and now you building him up has brought him more attention from other women so now the the difference between what you're not giving him and what someone else is willing to give him becomes way clearer now the Temptation gets way stronger and he ends up doing something or she ends up cheating as well because he's safe but he doesn't fulfill her he doesn't satisfy her he he doesn't excite her in any kind of way and that's why I always said earlier like the safe choice is almost always the wrong choice but that is a function of people trying to choose these fix or uppers because they think it's going to give them some leverage there it's leverage that's it yeah it's leverage yeah how do you know when it's time to go like how do you know when it's like I feel like this is a common question where it's like how do you know when it's just I've tried everything we've tried together tried our best maybe we went to therapy maybe we got a coach or maybe you know maybe we didn't do those things how do I just know that I feel like I need to go but I'm scared of being alone yeah I'm I'm scared of dealing with the reality that I put in a lot of energy and I feel like you said this earlier but a lot of people stay in something for a lot longer than they should because they'd rather not be alone yes they'd rather not face reality they'd rather not lose two years of their life they'd rather lose two more thinking that this this should stay like how do you know when it's time to go let me first say this yes I think I think Society needs to change their thinking as far as Letting Go doesn't always mean it can't work out later it's just that it cannot work out under these circumstances all right because some people say well I feel like they're the one okay maybe they are but maybe the time is not right and it's letting go that will allow you both to do what needs to be done in your own personal lives that would allow you to come back together and have something way more amazing so that's number one thing to consider but outside of that it's when one if that person is unwilling to put in the work necessary it's time to go there's like so many times I'll I'll have a video go up about communication and someone will comment saying I've tried talking to him and he doesn't want to talk to me and in my head I'm like why are you still with them if he refuses to talk to you you've already tried there's nothing else to do but people will let it Linger on and continue why they can why they consistently complain or unhappy about this specific issue it's not gonna magically get better they're not gonna just change it just because all of a sudden they see oh it needs to change no if they're fighting it now they have no reason to change it and what people have to understand you know especially with this whole trying to fix people up healing and facing your traumas is one of the hardest things for people to do so if they already have you in their life they're essentially getting the incentive or the benefit of relationship without having to do the deeper work it's almost like if I'm at a job and the job says you need to have a master's degree to work here but we're going to hire you anyway and give you time to get that master's degree if getting that degree is super hard to you you're gonna drag that out as long as possible yeah you may never get the degree until they fire you when they fire you and you realize oh my gosh if I don't do this I'll never get this person back I'll never get this opportunity back now they might go and get it because it's very tough to walk down the path of the healing process so if they're not willing to work on it you guys have already discussed it and I think that's a big thing because there's a lot of relationships that end and the couples don't even know what the real issue was so the communication they'll say well we talked about no you guys argued you guys lashed out there wasn't a clear communication as to what the problem was what is expected how do we go about this if you've done that and I believe one of the most effective ways to do that is through a letter because I feel like verbal communication of deep issues and concerns they typically don't go well you know people get distracted they forget what they want to say the other person gets defensive they're not they're listening to rebuttal not to understand but when there's a letter involved it gives you time to get everything out you can you can evaluate your tone leave no stone unturned and now they have an opportunity to process it on their time to really take it in and then you guys can come together and discuss the letter and now it's so much easier to stay on point and get everything covered if we've done that and they're still unwilling or there's still no progress It's Time to Go yeah that's great that's great advice and I for me that's the biggest one it's like you can't make something last if only one person's working on it you can't keep hoping and waiting and wishing and and like you said that ending doesn't mean forever and often I found that two people need to grow individually to be able to grow collectively and we're forcing growing together so hard but we need space to grow and if you can't grow together chances are you need to grow apart in order to see whether you grow together again or grow for someone else and all of those options are okay but we put so much pressure on people to grow together that they grow apart yeah and actually if they chose to grow apart and grow separately they could come back together if they learn the lessons and I think that's a mistake too though sometimes people think I'm gonna go learn this lesson for this person I meet a lot of people they're like okay they broke up with me because I wasn't XYZ now I'm gonna go become XYZ to win them back yeah and I always find I'm just like well no you should go become XYZ if you think you were missing XYZ but not to win them back because you don't know what they're gonna do what's your take on people trying to win people back so I 100 agree with you like if we're trying to learn or grow it needs to be for the benefit of who we are and just whoever we deal with so was almost like if I was a bad Communicator in this relationship I shouldn't learn to better communicate for that person I need to better communicate for whoever I'm going to be with if you can't see it in that light then maybe you're looking at the wrong thing my thing is this I think it all depends on what the details of the situation was what led to the breakup what were you overlooking what was missing are these fixable issues because a lot of people are trying to win back someone where the issues are not resolved so it's like what's the point of going back we're just going to go in the same cycle all over again they're letting this idea of I miss them I don't want to be without them blind them from the fact that you two did not get along well or you two don't want the same things or YouTube just whatever it is maybe there's a lack of sexual satisfaction I don't know why I feel the need to mention that but it happens a lot of times you have to stay focused on what led to the end and can this be corrected if it can cool but as you mentioned listen correcting it does not guarantee you they're coming back and even if they will come back you don't know when they may need so you may have figured yourself out in six months they might need a year and I would argue if you guys are truly meant for each other and at the end of the year you need a year too you're just overlooking some things and you're rushing the process because you want to get back to them yeah it's I've never found a situation where it was truly only one person who had problems and the other person was squeaky clean no no you thought you were but you got some stuff too you needed to correct of course so I think we have to be honest with ourselves and just keep striving to be better and rather than focus on winning them back just become the best you because if you do and there's a true connection there the opportunity will present itself again and you too will be able to make something of it and the struggle is that when people finally make that decision to break up or let go the study showed that the parts of your brain that are activated in a breakup are the same as detoxing from cocaine right like you're literally trying to detox so you can have a craving yeah for someone that's bad for you yeah or also it says that the areas of the brain that are activated in a breakup are the areas that are the same with physical pain so if someone like punching the stomach the reason why we say like my heart feels broken is because it literally feels like something's broken yeah so when you're going through a breakup when you're feeling the craving to be with that person again studies show that eight over eighty percent of people are looking at what their exes are doing on social media right probably through a Finster account or whatever but you have to you have to know what are some of the healthiest tips that you've given to people and the people that you've worked with that have genuinely helped people move through a breaker the first thing is to ask yourself again why was I even there why am I holding on to this individual again I think sometimes we get so blinded by just the experience or our desire to have this person for whatever reason that we Overlook what was really missing or why this could not work anyway what you'll also find is and I'm sure there's probably a study on it where if you if they broke up with you you ever see a situation it happens on TV a lot where the person could be like okay I'm gonna break up with my partner they're planning on it they've been practicing in their head right it took them a couple weeks to muster up the strength they're about to do it and then the partner breaks up with them yeah now it's oh my gosh I gotta get them back yeah so it's like you just forgot this whole time that was your plan yeah it just gave you the past to do it but now because we don't like to be the one being let go of now we're fighting hard to get it back yeah so we have to really not fall into these little traps that happen to us as human beings our brains just playing tricks on us or something where we confuse these emotions for oh my gosh I must really love them or even like you said you go into that detox and because you miss I always tell people no matter how bad the relationship was there's always good moments so if you're trying to break free you can't just let your brain focus on the good moments you have to remind yourself why this doesn't work but if you keep focusing on the good you start to make yourself think oh because I missed this good moment I must miss them and there's this quote that says sometimes you're not missing the person you're missing the feeling so you've got to be able to differentiate those two things so getting back to how we get over these breakups is recognizing why were we really there to begin with you know could this actually work the next thing is you know I'm a huge believer that a lot of times a breakup is a blessing in disguise even if there is a chance that you two can work together or this is the one for you you may have needed this time to re-evaluate and get things in order something is obviously wrong even if you it may be something as deep as because I've seen situations where everything was going amazingly well on the surface and the person broke up with them let's say the woman lets go of the man so to the man that's really confusing but what it was is that that woman she had not healed from her past relationships and this relationship being so good was scaring her and what happens is the the better you are the scarier it becomes for her she's looking for something to be wrong she has to validate her fear somehow wow when she can't find it she'll either sabotage the relationship or she'll run from it So to that man it may seem like this is so unfair which yeah it sucks but if this woman didn't break up with you now you were inevitably gonna face this same ending but at a worse time yeah all right this is still best that is happening now at least if she can go do what she needs to do there's a chance for this to come back around later but it's hard for us to see it in the moment so I think just really we also have to focus on our healing whenever a breakup happens the mistake we make is that we think it's about healing from the breakup no it's healing from everything you've been through you've probably been sleeping under the rug your childhood trauma for years maybe the last two three relationships whatever it is so and and not healing from those things is contributing to your struggle to get past this breakup and contributing to why you even chose this person to begin with I'm a huge believer that if you haven't healed you are 90 likely to choose the wrong person yeah it's just too difficult to pick that person that you truly love and can truly love you and accept that level of vulnerability when you have still not resolved your past traumas and past hurts yeah so to me that's the next big thing is just focus on your healing process because in that process you will also be able to see more clearly if this is really for you or not like walking around unhealed is like walking around with broken glasses you you can't see straight no matter how hard you try but healing will clear up your vision really really fast and now it'd be like oh wait a minute I didn't belong there yeah you know thank God the broke breakup happened you know now I'm in a better place I move forward so to me I think and I would say in addition to those things is just have an accountability partner whether that's friend coach therapist someone that can help keep you in check help remind you what you need to do someone that you know you have to talk to and update what's going on so you feel like okay I don't want to come back so I'm saying I'm doing the same thing over and over again it doesn't guarantee success but it helps it helps move the needle some so I would highly encourage that that one mindset you spoke about that that changes everything and it hit me today I was just thinking if we were just able in a moment to recognize that something painful now was going to be good for us in five years time that would change so many things in our life yes but we're so poor at dealing with current pain yeah even if it means future joy that we just can't accept that I have to go through this like in everything right like knowing that someone breaking up with you just saved you 10 years of a wasted life is so much more than knowing you're gonna have to go through a few months of pain and 10 months of pain maybe it's a bit longer maybe it's two three years but we just have to get our head around that that sometimes the best things that happen to you are protecting more of your life than the pain that they're causing you need the Peace of knowing I did what I needed to do that's it yeah because anytime you feel like well maybe I could have done this but I could have done that leaves the door open for doubt do it well exactly so it's like and that's why I'm such a big believer in you know there's people who say well once they're done they're done they'll just move on and I'm like no no Express Yourself get everything off your chest because you don't need anything to linger and you questioning well what if I did this different no make sure speak your full piece and now you can say all right I did what I had to do it is what it is I move forward and I mean it makes it easier it may not make it a hundred percent you know not an issue whatsoever but it's gonna be easier and also also for me that's why like my relationship with God is so important because that's where I find my peace in dealing with a situation that doesn't work out the way I want to I always tell myself okay if this isn't working out God has something better for me you know if this is happening right now there's a purpose because I know if I followed his guidance throughout this process there's no need for me to question why is this the current outcome there's a reason for this and I've been through these things enough times to see as you mentioned the reward is going to come it may come next week it may come years from now it will come and I'll be able to see how it all connected yeah Stefan it's been incredible talking to you man this has been such a great back-to-back flowing conversation uh we end every on purpose episode with the final five which is like a rapid fire which means every question has to be answered with one word to one sentence maximum okay so here are your final five the first question is what's the best relationship advice you've ever received or heard or given it is to love fully lovefully and be yourself because as I said earlier that's how you will expose quicker who is for you and who isn't for you second question what is the worst relationship advice you've ever heard or received get under someone to get over someone [Laughter] uh question number three uh how would you defin	path of the healing process so if they're not willing to work on it you guys have already discussed it and I think that's a big thing because there's a lot of relationships that end and the couples don't even know what the real issue was so the communication they'll say well we talked about no you guys argued you guys lashed out there wasn't a clear communication as to what the problem was what is expected how do we go about this if you've done that and I believe one of the most effective ways to do that is through a letter because I feel like verbal communication of deep issues and concerns they typically don't go well you know people get distracted they forget what they want to say the other person gets defensive they're not they're listening to rebuttal not to understand but when there's a letter involved it gives you time to get everything out you can you can evaluate your tone leave no stone unturned and now they have an opportunity to process it on their time to really take it in and then you guys can come together and discuss the letter and now it's so much easier to stay on point and get everything covered if we've done that and they're still unwilling or there's still no progress It's Time to Go yeah that's great that's great advice and I for me that's the biggest one it's like you can't make something last	8	6	4	path of the healing process so if they're not willing to work on it you guys have already discussed it and I think that's a big thing because there's a lot of relationships that end and the couples don't even know what the real issue was so the communication they'll say well we talked about no you guys argued you guys lashed out there wasn't a clear communication as to what the problem was what is expected how do we go about this if you've done that and I believe one of the most effective ways to do that is through a letter because I feel like verbal communication of deep issues and concerns they typically don't go well you know people get distracted they forget what they want to say the other person gets defensive they're not they're listening to rebuttal not to understand but when there's a letter involved it gives you time to get everything out you can you can evaluate your tone leave no stone unturned and now they have an opportunity to process it on their time to really take it in and then you guys can come together and discuss the letter and now it's so much easier to stay on point and get everything covered if we've done that and they're still unwilling or there's still no progress It's Time to Go	yeah that's great that's great advice and I for me that's the biggest one it's like you can't make something last	8,4,6	6,2,5	8	4	6	6	2	5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPQBcb9wf8Q	4,056	mPQBcb9wf8Q	2023-03-27 00:00:00	you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you're wasting your time the best-selling author and host the number one Health and Wellness podcast on purpose with Jay Shetty what are the signs that someone deeply loves you because I feel like we live in this world where we're always wondering do they love me do they like me do they really like me are they really into me how do you know when you deeply love someone and when someone deeply loves you how do you even know so I'm gonna start with an answer that people probably won't expect to me the first key is do you truly love them because look at it like this to me a lot of people get caught up in infatuation um they have unhealthy attachments they have different motivations to why they decided this is the person that I want and that can make them feel like they're in love but to me true love flows both ways it's not a one-sided thing so when you can say I I'm not into them like that if we look deep into that situation I can almost guarantee what we'll find is infatuation attachment something else but when you can say no I feel it too I'm deeply in love with them I think that's your first key because without that nothing else matters because a lot of people are choosing Partners based off of what they love me so much so I assume it's safe here and this is a good choice to make but the safe choice is usually the wrong choice and a lot of these people select this individual thinking everything's going to be okay but because you're not really into them you can never be what they need and they were never truly what you needed which is why you never even got to that level with them so to choose them without first evaluating do you truly love them would not be wise yeah that's that's a great question and I think people struggle with that question too because I think we think of love as so many different things wrapped into one for example I could think I love someone because of how they treat me I could think I love someone because they have one quality that I really wish I had or I could love someone because I think that they're out of my league and they give me a bit of attention yeah and so what we think is love is so complex and so wide that we never stop to ask ourselves like what does love mean like what's the definition of love like how do I Define love so how do you define love and how do you encourage other people to create their definitions of Love well for me first off is always God is love and then when we take it from there love is about kindness compassion patience understanding a willingness to be selfless important to that individual but I think what's also important for people to understand is when we're trying to apply it to romantic relationships we have to understand that there's other ingredients that are necessary before we can move forward so you could love someone dearly but if they are not emotionally ready because maybe they haven't healed from their past maybe there's still some things that need to work out in their life then it wouldn't be time to move forward in a relationship with them and we have this bad habit of the minute we feel like there's love there we want to move forward exactly and as you mentioned we can get caught up sometimes in but we love them because of what they do for us but what are you prepared to do for them love is about giving all right so we have to ask ourselves okay do we know what their needs are are we willing to fulfill those needs because if not maybe this wasn't love maybe it just felt good in the moment maybe you got caught up in the hype and that's okay it happens to almost all of us if not all of us at some point in life but we have to just be real very clear with ourselves about what's really driving the intention right now but I think all those things I mentioned is what encompasses love of and that's like the foundation of it and then from there we have to look at some other things to see how we can move forward so many times like you you convince yourself something's love and what I find really interesting is that so many people fall in love too fast and no one wants to go for the slow patient understanding love which is what love requires you just said love is kind love is patient love is understanding those things take time I think those things take time to nurture and to to make sure that we're doing it correctly for each other so it's about learning each other's Love Languages and how we make it work in within that Dynamic I think also because so many people are not used to dealing with emotions at on that level being that vulnerable people mishandle it all right so it takes time for us to get to a place so we understand how to manage this and work through this however I think that I'm a huge believer in connection and I believe connection is like your spirit recognizing its match and it's very instant when you speak to couples who said they experience a connection they'll tell you first conversation first time meeting first date first week it was pretty fast so to me the the recognizing of something deeper being here can happen very quickly but how we now cultivate that and how we move forward is where we need to take our time and make sure we're not rushing and overlooking certain important issues that need to be discussed and addressed first to me it's the understanding of chemistry versus compatibility and the idea that there needs to be a spark there needs to be a connection that I feel with someone like you're saying on a deeper level but I find that I find that most people are not Adept and knowing whether the connection they feel with someone is deeper or physical yeah like I would say that it's easy to it you can often feel a spark with if you meet a lot of people you can feel a spot with a lot of people but that doesn't mean that they're the right person to build a relationship absolutely right yes so it's connection to me is a very rare occurrence right yes so I feel that people who've actually experienced it they can tell you maybe once in their life if you're lucky two times maybe all right but it's not this thing that happens with everybody whereas chemistry uh feeling of spark these things can happen with a lot of different people yeah so I do think there's there's this education that's needed to understand how we differentiate these things so that we don't confuse them because I see a lot of people take that chemistry and think oh this is it this is the one it's like but you had chemistry with the last five people why is this one the one and not them so I do think we have to be careful with that yeah I think so so we're on the same page there's three things there's connection on the deeper level there's chemistry which is like the spark on a more superficial level and then there's compatibility which is like what makes get lost and I can relate to that with my wife I definitely felt so I I'm one of those people who I kind of knew from the first few moments when I met my wife before she was my wife was like I was like yeah this is my person like I felt that way yeah for sure I felt that connection and there was chemistry there too but it had to be turned into compatibility in order to create a long lasting relationship we've been together for 10 years we're still learning building going through everything but that was a big part of it so that I can get behind is do you see it that way too or is there something different in so how do you see it believe it or not I used to make compatibility the least important but that was because I was looking at it the wrong way once I kind of looked at the definition again and compatibility is about two people coexisting in harmony yeah then I was like okay no you you have to have that I just I got caught up more so in like let's say a dating site says okay we're gonna decide who's compatible so I view compatible as like an on the paper it looks good it's supposed to match but you can have a lot of people who are supposed to be compatible and it doesn't work absolutely so I think that it's compatibility is that add-on once we have the connection and the chemistry now we have to create that Harmony which is the compatibility yes I agree with you and and it is interesting how that word compatibility is thrown around and you're so right that compatibility on paper doesn't mean compatibility in real life exactly and to me compatibility really has another word inside of it which is like adaptability and that deeper understanding of an individual where you know how much you're willing to adapt around certain parts of the relationship but we'll get to that I think a lot of people like you know and and that's where we got into this conversation around what is slow a lot of people are waiting to feel like is this person wasting my time are they the one and so they don't have a deeper connection maybe they had that spark of chemistry and now that's kind of subsided how do you know if someone's wasting your time how do you know if you're letting yourself be used or wasted in that way so to me again I think it always starts with self and you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you because just use an example let's say you're a woman and the only reason why you're holding on to this guy is because he's a nice guy you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you figure let me try to make it work you're wasting your time this is where you're setting yourself up for disaster every single time so if it's not born out of a true connection love a genuine desire you really like this individual of course there's always things we have to work through but is the foundation strong enough for us to say okay we can make something special here and I think once we are honest with ourselves that kind of helps answer the question because sometimes we get so caught up trying to animal lies the other individual that is like we get in our heads and now we're missing the mark on what's really important here and we can't always say for sure what's going on with them I will say that in general if this person isn't willing to talk about things they're wasting your time if they're not willing to address or correct things that have been talked about they're wasting your time if you guys aren't on the same page about what you want and where you want to go in life wasting time so there are some things I think we can just look at and say listen this is pointless here but a lot of times and I have to say this especially for women women's intuition is extremely powerful I'm a huge believer in it and I feel like women know very early this isn't it but they rationalize reasons to convince themselves to give this man a chance and this again is a waste of time because it just doesn't work I've seen people turn what should have been maybe a couple weeks of dating into years of being married to someone they were not happy with all because they did not listen to themselves from the beginning they knew what it was but they just could not accept it for what it was yeah and I love that point on intuition it's almost like when a relationship finally ends a lot of us think to ourselves I knew they weren't right yeah like I knew it I knew that they weren't the one but you just didn't listen to that part of yourself yes so so let's break it down for people let's help people out we started talking about three very important words connection which you defined chemistry which we've defined in compatibility which we've defined how do people know the difference between connection and chemistry when they meet someone because I find that the science shows that you're experiencing dopamine and cortisol at the same times you're experiencing the reward chemical and stress chemical at the same time which gives you that chemistry feeling which is the feeling of butterflies in your stomach or like do they like me are they into me what should I wear that kind of feeling but then you're talking about a deeper connection how do you hear the difference because I think a lot of us just get swept up in the feeling of I'm So Into that person they're so into me how do you know so I think one is are you even being yourself or can you be yourself with this individual if if you're presenting your representative then this is not a real connection this is them falling for that person that you're presenting but that's not real so to me you have you should be already being yourself but with that person you have a connection with it's a more natural flow we don't have to force it we just feel so much more comfortable around them I think in addition to that is when you when you find yourself all caught up in the moment and caught up in that chemistry again you have to ask yourself what am I really attaching myself to what about what do I really like about this individual what I find is that when it's really about chemistry we're still on the surface you don't really know about them yet you just know you guys had a good time maybe you had fun at this event you guys were able to talk about a lot of different things which is great which is gonna also be important if there is a connection however do you even know what college did they want do you know what kind of Life they want to live you know are you guys really on the same page I think connection is our paths align our purpose is align so for us to align we have to have a deeper understanding of where we're headed and can we head there together so so that's why I think though you may feel it or you may feel like you're feeling it you have to do your due diligence to dig deeper to find out okay is this just I got caught up on the surface or there is something real here yeah and I think once we ask enough questions because I think that's the other big problem we have this experience where we feel this chemistry we're so excited and now we're afraid to ask questions because we don't want to blow up the fantasy yes you know what I'm saying we're just like no no I want to keep believing this is great so let me not ask anything let me not run this person away let me not rock the boat but that's going to be what tells us if this is real or not yes I think you're I think you've hit on something there like we're so scared of losing someone that we're okay with not asking important questions and discovering important truths that actually define whether this relationship is going to last absolutely and that is ultimately going back to your point earlier that is ultimately you not being yourself right you're losing yourself scared that you're going to lose the other person so you're okay with not being yourself do you think it's ever okay this is a funny question I think but I have to ask you because I think it's a healthy discussion do you think it's ever okay to present different sides of yourself in order to attract someone or do you think that you're ultimately setting yourself up for failure in a relationship almost like I think a lot of people they may not become someone completely different but I think a lot of people are like oh I'm gonna show my smart side because it will attract this person or I'm gonna show my this side because they're like that are you saying any of that kind of molding is unhealthy or do you think there's room for that I think anything that is not sustainable is unhealthy so look at it as if I'm a man and I'm meeting this woman I want to impress her so I'm like okay I'm gonna try to spend all my money take a nice five-star restaurant all these things but deep inside I prefer a more simple lifestyle you know I don't like all that extra stuff okay that's horrible that's a sale for disaster that's unhealthy because you can't sustain what you're presenting to that individual that's gonna draw them in so whatever it is another like common example is you'll have women who love to communicate they want to be able to talk to you every single day but because they're afraid of coming off a certain kind of way they'll hold back on their communication so now they'll make it seem like they're okay with talking every now and then we don't always have to text and then this guy falls for that he falls for this low standard I won't call low standard but not having such a high expectation of him when it comes to communication then he finally gets with the woman her true self is going to come out at some point no one can suppress their true self forever it comes out and now it's like what is this I did not sign up for this now we're fighting now we're stressed because you want him to call you more he was used to you not being worried about it so much that's why it's going to always not work out so it's extremely unhealthy unless we're presenting a side of us that is truly us and we can sustain it you've hit on something again that that at the beginning of relationships we often display unrealistic standards and we set those yes and then when things shift and now you're back in reality again the other person's like but wait a minute I thought you were really into me and I even went through that with my wife when we first met I was able to spend pretty much every day with her because I didn't have a job and so I was looking for work I was applying I would go see her at her College every day and I would spend the day with her and I'd be in the library applying for jobs while she was studying yeah and I could see it every day and I think I saw every day potentially for like six months maybe every single day five days a week at least and then when I got a job that wasn't the case anymore because I was at work now and I'd set this unrealistic expectation that we could see each other all the time and even in the beginning I would see her all the time because I'd spend time with her family but we wouldn't spend time with my family because I hadn't told my family yet and so now that my family knew we were trying to split the time and all of a sudden it was like wait a minute we used to spend time at my house and so even in little things like that it took a bit of adapting because I'd set a false standard in our relationship and then thankfully my wife was adapting and she understood and she got it and it was fine but I think for so many people you set unrealistic expectations in who you are yes and that's hard to come back from absolutely yeah and that's why it's so important for us to know who we are so that we can present the real from the jump you know because again A lot of times people you know this idea that we're always changing yes I do think we're always evolving but some of the big shifts that you see are is not because that's just the way life is it's because you did take the time to figure yourself out first and then you got with this person and now you want them to adjust now thank God for you she was able to adjust but there's a lot of people that they can't handle that yeah and now everything falls apart from there so that's why yeah we have to be very careful with what we're presenting from the beginning yeah it's I I agree with you on that that we think people change but actually they just start to understand themselves exactly they went from being completely unconscious about who they were you met an unconscious version of a person yeah and now you think they're changing but they just became conscious of who they are absolutely and but the thing is Stefan as you know like Society doesn't encourage that time of getting to know yourself right when you're young you're not trained in how to think about who you want to be you're trained in thinking about what you want to I do it's about your job it's about your career you're not thinking about who you are as a human being or as a person so how do we in this Society where understanding who you are is not clear it's not encouraged where where does one start or where have you kind of found great insights in trying to discover who we are I would love to see more parents encouraging their children to explore how they're feeling about who they are like what I have found is a lot of people who let's say I I had one client where she wanted to be an actress when she was a little kid uh but parents kind of push in a different direction now she's like a social worker but her desire is still to be an actress like the things that they they wanted to do they they want to do as an adult now you can find back in their childhood in a lot of cases so I feel like too many people have stifled their children's growth in certain areas with limited ideas of well this can't make money or this wouldn't be a good look for the family or whatever the case may be it's like no let them walk in it and see for themselves if that's really where they belong outside of that for me I think the big thing is getting in tune spiritually I'm just a huge believer in that I feel like me finding myself was when I went into what I call my Wilderness period I kind of just shut everything off that I was doing because I used to be all over having fun partying all these different things things and then God kind of slapped me upside my head and I had to like really pull away from everything and go deeper from within and it felt like a process of breaking me down to build me right back up and that's when I start to see things clearer because what I realized is the world is filled with distractions and it's the distractions why we can't see ourselves for who we really are if we simply shut off the distractions long enough you will learn a lot so even if someone just took a year off don't worry you know limit the TV you're watching limit the music you're listening to limit all the internet stuff just really go deeper within yourself spend more time alone spend more time you know thinking and processing you will learn a lot because again a lot of it is it isn't a problem of we don't know ourselves we are not aware and we're not willing to accept and once we allow ourselves to do those two things become aware and then accept it we become free yeah I I mean I agree with you I think that I've always been a big proponent of solitude to understand who you are because as soon as you have another person you now have another person's opinions you have to filter yes as soon as you have another person in front of you you have another person's judgments to filter and so now you can't even say what you truly think about something because you're constantly thinking what does that person think about me and my beliefs and so understanding your beliefs in solitude allows you to be really clear about what your values and beliefs are and and that's what it's there for I think when people get into if we switch to compatibility again the idea we talked about the difference between connection and chemistry but compatibility is really interesting because a lot of people believe that relationships should be hard and they require hard work and a lot of people believe relationships should be easy and everything should just flow where have you kind of discovered your lens on that Spectrum so okay there's a there's a couple ways to look at it I think that most relationships and I'll even be more specific most relations that involve connection and true love are typically hard not because relationships have to be hard but because most people have been hurt by something in their life are holding on to past traumas haven't resolved it once they meet this individual that they feel so strongly about it is scary this is where things get difficult it's the difficultness in how do I handle this how do I manage this you'll have people feel like they're losing themselves but they're not losing themselves their true self is coming out and it's it's the self that's been hiding behind that wall they've been using for quote-unquote protection but I always say the same module to protect you the same as blocking your blessings so now they're being pulled from behind it it's it's makes them feel some kind of way and again people start to mishandle things you also have situations where people are getting bad advice like I'm gonna give one example um there's this uh book called The Game by Neil Strauss I don't know if you ever read that book yeah it was great Neil you know you you answer that world to pick up artistry we learned it and he was great with the women but then once he found that woman that he fell in love with all that stuff doesn't work anymore so you have a lot of men being taught how to handle women in general but they don't understand that's not how you handle the woman you truly love and so now again you have individuals who though they are truly in love with this person they constantly mishandle it with bad Guidance with fear and all these things this is what makes it hard and and I even think that a lot of times the people who are supposed to be together sometimes will have the hardest time getting together but I believe that once we're able to conquer that part of it and actually come together it's not hard yes it takes work I believe we have to be conscious and mindful of how we treat our partners how we show up being willing to listen but I think it's so much easier to do those things with someone you have a connection with and you're truly in love with it's gonna always feel ten times harder when you're in the wrong relationship and I would argue the vast majority of people are in the wrong relationship that's why they're seeing it be so difficult and when you see this whole it's easy typically it's easy because you have two people who are not digging deeper they're they're trying to write out that chemistry we talked about earlier for as long as possible all right so yeah it seems like it's great it's easy no issues but it doesn't really work like that because they're just not facing the reality of the situation so I think we we have to understand that there is going to be some bumps in the road because of all the things that people have been through but once we're able to come together and we know this is our partner this is who we want to share our life with it can get so much better yeah and do you do you think that people have just been given generally the wrong education on how to deal with another person in their life 100 yeah because unfortunately a lot of individuals are giving advice from a bit or hurt place there and and they're trying to disguise it as I'm just looking out for you no you you have inhaled and you cannot properly guide them in a positive and loving Manner and I think that a lot of people you know I always say it's funny how we'll spend a lot of time getting educated for the for the sake of our careers and business but we don't do the same for relationships and yet relationships arguably are even more important than that career business and even if it's not a romantic relationship just relationships in general your ability to coexist with others connect with others is extremely important if you want that business to succeed you have to learn how to establish business relationships there's no way around it so we have to learn how to talk to people listen to people you know what I'm saying and just make make things work when we come together with other individuals so I definitely think that we're just lacking in a lot of education and again too many because there's so many voices on the internet now there's just so much bad advice being given and and the individuals giving it they may be giving like let's say 80 of the advice is accurate but it's that 20 that's completely off that can derail everything and that's the stuff that people are gravitating to and this is causing a lot of problems can you give us some example of some of the like not specific people or anything like that I just mean like could you give example of bad advice and what about it is bad or unhealthy for people to try and put into practice okay so one thing I heard recently was an individual told uh said some of the best advice you can give to men is to not fall in love you know basically just find a woman you want to be with and kind of keep it there the reason why I view that as horrible advice is because you sit down with any man who's lived enough life they will all be able to say there's been at least one time they fail deeply for a woman all right the problem isn't falling deep before a woman the problem is we don't know how to handle it once we get there the problem is because we're not accustomed to handling and processing our emotions a certain kind of way and being this vulnerable we don't understand what's going to be required of us in that moment we also kind of lose sight of because I'm a big believer in masculine and feminine energy and I believe that if she was attracted to you because of that masculine energy that you give off and now you become this emotional wreck because you don't know how to handle all these feelings you have for her well you start to become less attractive to her and it's not that it's not fixable it's fixable but again a lack of understanding and awareness derails the situation so rather than telling men don't fall in love because it's inevitable let's teach them how we walk in love how we make what I call Loving in your masculine how you maintain that energy and still be able to pour into that woman in a way that allows relationship to flourish yeah and how does that work when I think obviously a lot of people in that example that you're giving if if the person is attracted to someone because of their masculine energy but at the same time they want them to be empathetic and compassionate and kind which are generally seen as more feminine energy how does that person balance the two or is that is that not how you're explaining is that no it's about balance so we have to understand we all have masculine and feminine of course within us I'm a Believer in one must be your dominant energy the other is the one you tap into when necessary so as a man you can walk in your masculine and in those moments tap into those things but you can't just stay there all the time all right you can't just become this needy emotional God that's not going to work in the vast majority of cases and so what happens is there's this messaging that's being thrown out there that women don't like good guys I don't believe that's what it is I believe that women become less attracted when you don't know how to exude and walk in your masculine energy it's and and we're hiding behind the label of good guy you can be a good guy and still exude masculine energy and that's the thing and we also think that oh they like bad boys no if you look deeper it's really the masculine energy that that quote-unquote bad boy exudes but what they desire is a mixture of both the same way that we would want a mixture of both we would want a loving sweet woman family woman whatever or and if you're a guy who wants a mask and woman cool but you don't want her to be just that you know you want her to have the ability to tap into that other side when necessary I think we all desire that balance in our partner and I think it's healthy and if we just learn how to maintain it and how to nurture it we would see greater success in relationships yeah what are some of the skills with with mastering that energy that you think we're missing out on and balancing that energy and knowing when to be which and because the reason why it's hard is I think we live in a binary world right like you feel like you have to choose like you're either a bad boy or you're a good girl you are a doer or you're a thinker you're uh winner or you're a loser right like we think like that and some people go okay you need to be masculine or I can be feminine and I I definitely relate to what you were saying like I believe that there is a lot about me that is massively masculine in energy using that language and terminology my drive my ambition how I work my strategic mind and at the same time I consider myself to have a lot of great feminine energy and qualities where it comes to like empowering others and nurturing and the ability to hold deep compassionate space and be empathetic which are all powerful qualities for for everyone right Beyond gender they're powerful qualities and I appreciate and it's taken a long time to know when to be which and it's still and I still make mistakes right there's still sometimes like I should have been more assertive I should have been more affectionate so we live in a world that finds it hard to hold two opposing ideas at the same time yeah we don't know how to do that in any sphere of life let alone within ourselves so what are some of the skills that we can learn in order to nurture both those energies in a healthy way inside of ourselves so I think one it's going to require a lot of if you're already in a relationship it's going to boil down to a lot of transparency and communication you know her if you're that man trying to understand that woman and when you can walk in those two energies her being willing to be honest and open about you know what this was too much over here or I needed some of this over here and in time you're going to become more aware and understanding it's going to be like second nature to you you won't have to overthink it and I think part of it is not overthinking it it's kind of like being ourselves but understanding that we have to learn when this is doing too much and vice versa I also think that in reality for a lot of men especially uh when we're talking about relationships and kind of losing that masculine energy the the underlying issue is fear all right when we become so afraid of losing this woman we lose ourselves and so a lot of men now fall into this very feminine needy space because they're just afraid we have to learn that listen like to me I feel if your partner thinks you're never gonna walk away from them no matter what they do you've lost that's that's a horrible place to be in we have to get to a place where we both understand that as long as we show up the way that we need to show up for each other we have each other's back we will be here but neither of us will tolerate an unhealthy relationship and someone who blatantly does not want to work on making this better I would want my the woman I'm with to feel that way and I need to feel that way once we understand that and you have the confidence of I can walk away if I have to that shifts your energy right there in itself and now you don't find yourself falling into that place where again you start to look a lot more unattractive or for some men they become yes men in their relationships thinking that makes her happy that's turning her off she doesn't want you to be her yes man she wants you to stand up for yourself sometimes give your opinion give your perspective she wants to be able to you know if anything be able to have discussions with you about these things not just you say whatever you want whatever you want whatever you want over time it becomes a problem so I think that once we conquer that fear once we create a space where we can talk about these moments and not feel some kind of way I think sometimes men are not they struggle with taking the criticism from their partner men and women we we all do when we feel when we have actual feelings for someone you know we don't care about you it's not as big of a deal but we're emotionally invested we're more sensitive to it but we have to understand that these criticisms are for the sake of making things better and strengthening this relationship so once we can get to that place it's going to be so much easier to grow in it and then I think it's just a matter of understanding that it's this balance isn't just for your relationship so look at it like from a sports perspective if I'm on a basketball team there may be moments where I need to take the lead and recognize all right everyone else is down someone needs to step up this is my moment and then there's other moments where I realize okay let's say we already have a team captain let me show them that I can follow serve do what needs to be done so that the team can win it's just becoming aware of what the moment requires you know and again I think the more in tune we get the more in tune we get with ourselves and the more in tune we get with our partner the easier it becomes to find that balance that's the challenge right the challenge is just how much patience we have with ourselves and others to realize that you walked into an imbalance unbalanced situation and now it's like how much patience how much time are we going to give it to get to that because the challenge is I think we walk into a situation thinking it's perfect whereas we should be walking into a relationship knowing it's imperfect absolutely and we're going to learn and figure it out together and I think that's what sets us up for failure is because we walk into it going it's perfect and deep down we know it isn't but somehow we gloss over it whereas I find when I know we're gonna fight when I know we're gonna argue and I know there's going to be disagreements that sets me up to develop the skills I need in order to navigate those things yes but if I assume like oh we're never gonna fight and I always get that right we always meet someone who goes to I mean a friend who goes to me Jay we never fight I'm like how long have you been together because I don't I don't know anyone who never fights I get that no one has to get to like yeah the heights of fights yeah I did that I did that it doesn't have to be a heated fight but I don't know anyone who doesn't disagree there you go all right right I think that's important for people to understand yeah there's a difference yes you have some individuals out there that'll say arguing is normal it's healthy and to me it's like listen if we're talking about arguing where we're now Crossing disrespectful lines negative lines you know the way that we the tone we take with each other all these things that's not healthy yes it may happen you should be prepared for that but it does let's not normalize it just gonna keep doing this and it's it is what it is but you're right to to be with each other long enough and never have a disagreement that's extremely rare okay extremely rare and I do think that again as you mentioned we have to be ready for those moments we have to understand and going back to how we find that balance especially as men and even for women it's recognizing so for example if my partner is in a very heated moment let's say she's in her masculine right now all right she's getting rough well meeting her with more masculine is probably going to only make things worse yeah this is the time for me to be compassionate go to her hold her calm her down bring her peace in that moment you see because it we need to balance each other out same thing on the flip side if I'm all heated and I'm I'm extra passionate and then my woman now comes with that same energy that's it now where button has this is her moment to say no let me now be the one to soften the moment up bring that Sweetness in there and everybody calms down so it's learning how to feed off of each other and recognize okay they're over here let me bring it back over here and now we can work from that point and we're both good the problem is that we all see compassion and sweetness and kindness in those moments as a weakness we don't want to be that person because we see that as losing we see that as giving in we see that as us losing our power and strength in a relationship if we become the comforter or if we become the carer right like that's that's a perception that is the perception and we have to change that that is the power position so who is more powerful the person that lets the energy dictate them how they're going to react or the person that brings the energy and dictates how they're going to make this situation play out so if I'm coming in to calm it down and being all sweet because I'm trying to bring peace here I'm in the power position I'm not losing anything I'm gonna gain more peace and happiness and Harmony if I succeed in what I'm trying to do so we have to get out of that mindset of this makes us weaker and that is the big key of it that's a big problem that for a lot of women who struggle with their feminine energy that's a big issue where they feel that being feminine is weakness it's what got them taken advantage of and got them hurt but I always say it's not the feminine energy that's the problem it's who you give it to do they respect it did they honor it you know it's the same thing as a man does she respect your masculine if she doesn't then that might just be a sign you're with the wrong person but don't stop being that guy because the woman who's best for you is going to need that in those moments that that's exactly what it is is that when people have been their best selves for the wrong person that person brings out the worst in them yes right like when someone's been their best loving kindness self but someone took advantage of it that person now thinks next time I've got to be aggressive I've got to be you know powerful I've got to be strong in this way and I feel like that's kind of what most people are dealing with we know that is that you're just dealing with a wounded version of someone yes not a healed version of someone but I think people struggle to trust again and again especially when they see the same patterns in the person they're weird and I guess the question is why do we keep making the same mistakes because I feel like a lot of us keep dating the same people yeah and there's a part of us that also just keeps closing off or being more wounded it's almost like if you cut yourself you now walk around with your hand over that you don't want to get cut again and then if you lead it off and it gets cut even deeper now you're even more conscious of that and so I find that people are doing that where they're closing their heart more and more because it's been so misused and abused and I understand that I understand people don't want to be abused and misused but I guess the question is how do people find people that they know respect them so that they can be their best version or be a better version of themselves so you know you can't drive out Darkness with more Darkness you can't expose someone who's gonna hurt you by being someone who's closed off and holding back yourself we have it's kind of what we were just talking about we have to look at being vulnerable loving and open as not just well I'm setting myself to be hurt no it's how you expose people faster if I come with that energy and you cannot respect it match it then I know you don't belong here but if I hold back I give you a free pass to hold back so now we have two individuals who are hiding behind their walls because it's comfortable there but you can't really see what's what do we really have in front of us those walls are blinding you and you can't properly evaluate the situation so one we we got to get to a place of healing from our past so that we're not just walking around with the hand over the cut no you you gotta let the cup breathe you gotta let it heal all right holding on put your hand on there is delaying the process and like you said all that's gonna happen is when you finally take your hand off but you're taking it off with the wrong person and you haven't learned see what I want people to realize is your actions weren't the problem meaning you being loving sweet kind compassionate wasn't the problem it was the person separate those two things that you don't stop doing the good things now granted are there levels to this to where we have to learn again if I'm thinking about a man if you got so deeply emotional to where you kind of lost your your masculine energy and you became very needy okay you can say all right I need to continue to be loving but I know I have to learn how to draw a line I have to learn how not to cross that moment and again you only crossed it because you were unhealthy to begin with you only cross it because you were afraid to begin with once you get to that place where you're healthy and confident you won't find yourself Crossing that line anymore yeah you won't tolerate certain things anymore so we have to heal we have to be confident and we have to let our light shine so that we can expose what's in front of us easier that's a brilliant answer I I love the differentiation between how sharing your light is not the problem the person's the problem because we yeah we start to doubt whether being a good person a loving person is actually what wins in the world yeah and the truth is that it does win but it has to win with someone who can receive it and absolutely hold that space with you and share that space with you and I find that a lot of people keep giving that energy to the wrong person because we feel we can make them better right like there's this feeling of like I can change this person I can make them better I can heal them there's some of us want to fix people yeah and that means we assume the person we're with is broken and I think this is such a subconscious thing like if you're always critiquing if you're always picking at stuff with your partner chances are you don't think they're great like just now you think there's some issues with them when you think that you can fix them and they're broken tell us about that angle where now we're almost we've talked about being the loving and kind person but sometimes we're being the person that thinks we're loving and kind because we want to improve someone but that person doesn't want to improve one big problem is that what's really driving people to pick that individual is that by being the one that can upgrade you improve you I have more value here by having more value I have a false sense of security you have to appreciate me you're less likely to walk away you're less likely to cheat because you're lucky to have me I feel like I'm the prize here but those situations never really work because again you're choosing someone that is not capable of pouring into you the way you need you're basing this off of what you could do for them and that's not sustainable and you're choosing them because again you have more emotional control here what happens to so many people especially women it's something that I call the unhealthy love cycle of women where women in their first love experience outside of any childhood trauma may have experienced they're their most loving they're just out there they go all the way in but that typically happens at a younger age at an age where men are not mature enough to handle those kind of emotions that level of commitment so on and so forth so she gets hurt after she gets hurt her moment is saying to herself I will never let this happen to me again so now the woman starts to consciously or subconsciously choose men who are I don't want to say lower than hurt but essentially a man who does not take her there he's good enough to be with but I'm not that vulnerable with him he can't hurt me like that first love hurt me and so that Dynamic usually leads to picking that person I can fix I can make better who will appreciate and respect me but again it doesn't work out and many times you'll see these same situations the guy will move on to cheat on her not because and I have to say this because some women think yeah he's just being a man no not because he's a man but because you chose a man that you could never be the woman that he needed and he could never be the man that you needed once he kind of either gets what he needs from you to build himself up or the Smoke Clears from him being infatuated with you he starts to realize I'm not getting everything that I desire and now you building him up has brought him more attention from other women so now the the difference between what you're not giving him and what someone else is willing to give him becomes way clearer now the Temptation gets way stronger and he ends up doing something or she ends up cheating as well because he's safe but he doesn't fulfill her he doesn't satisfy her he he doesn't excite her in any kind of way and that's why I always said earlier like the safe choice is almost always the wrong choice but that is a function of people trying to choose these fix or uppers because they think it's going to give them some leverage there it's leverage that's it yeah it's leverage yeah how do you know when it's time to go like how do you know when it's like I feel like this is a common question where it's like how do you know when it's just I've tried everything we've tried together tried our best maybe we went to therapy maybe we got a coach or maybe you know maybe we didn't do those things how do I just know that I feel like I need to go but I'm scared of being alone yeah I'm I'm scared of dealing with the reality that I put in a lot of energy and I feel like you said this earlier but a lot of people stay in something for a lot longer than they should because they'd rather not be alone yes they'd rather not face reality they'd rather not lose two years of their life they'd rather lose two more thinking that this this should stay like how do you know when it's time to go let me first say this yes I think I think Society needs to change their thinking as far as Letting Go doesn't always mean it can't work out later it's just that it cannot work out under these circumstances all right because some people say well I feel like they're the one okay maybe they are but maybe the time is not right and it's letting go that will allow you both to do what needs to be done in your own personal lives that would allow you to come back together and have something way more amazing so that's number one thing to consider but outside of that it's when one if that person is unwilling to put in the work necessary it's time to go there's like so many times I'll I'll have a video go up about communication and someone will comment saying I've tried talking to him and he doesn't want to talk to me and in my head I'm like why are you still with them if he refuses to talk to you you've already tried there's nothing else to do but people will let it Linger on and continue why they can why they consistently complain or unhappy about this specific issue it's not gonna magically get better they're not gonna just change it just because all of a sudden they see oh it needs to change no if they're fighting it now they have no reason to change it and what people have to understand you know especially with this whole trying to fix people up healing and facing your traumas is one of the hardest things for people to do so if they already have you in their life they're essentially getting the incentive or the benefit of relationship without having to do the deeper work it's almost like if I'm at a job and the job says you need to have a master's degree to work here but we're going to hire you anyway and give you time to get that master's degree if getting that degree is super hard to you you're gonna drag that out as long as possible yeah you may never get the degree until they fire you when they fire you and you realize oh my gosh if I don't do this I'll never get this person back I'll never get this opportunity back now they might go and get it because it's very tough to walk down the path of the healing process so if they're not willing to work on it you guys have already discussed it and I think that's a big thing because there's a lot of relationships that end and the couples don't even know what the real issue was so the communication they'll say well we talked about no you guys argued you guys lashed out there wasn't a clear communication as to what the problem was what is expected how do we go about this if you've done that and I believe one of the most effective ways to do that is through a letter because I feel like verbal communication of deep issues and concerns they typically don't go well you know people get distracted they forget what they want to say the other person gets defensive they're not they're listening to rebuttal not to understand but when there's a letter involved it gives you time to get everything out you can you can evaluate your tone leave no stone unturned and now they have an opportunity to process it on their time to really take it in and then you guys can come together and discuss the letter and now it's so much easier to stay on point and get everything covered if we've done that and they're still unwilling or there's still no progress It's Time to Go yeah that's great that's great advice and I for me that's the biggest one it's like you can't make something last if only one person's working on it you can't keep hoping and waiting and wishing and and like you said that ending doesn't mean forever and often I found that two people need to grow individually to be able to grow collectively and we're forcing growing together so hard but we need space to grow and if you can't grow together chances are you need to grow apart in order to see whether you grow together again or grow for someone else and all of those options are okay but we put so much pressure on people to grow together that they grow apart yeah and actually if they chose to grow apart and grow separately they could come back together if they learn the lessons and I think that's a mistake too though sometimes people think I'm gonna go learn this lesson for this person I meet a lot of people they're like okay they broke up with me because I wasn't XYZ now I'm gonna go become XYZ to win them back yeah and I always find I'm just like well no you should go become XYZ if you think you were missing XYZ but not to win them back because you don't know what they're gonna do what's your take on people trying to win people back so I 100 agree with you like if we're trying to learn or grow it needs to be for the benefit of who we are and just whoever we deal with so was almost like if I was a bad Communicator in this relationship I shouldn't learn to better communicate for that person I need to better communicate for whoever I'm going to be with if you can't see it in that light then maybe you're looking at the wrong thing my thing is this I think it all depends on what the details of the situation was what led to the breakup what were you overlooking what was missing are these fixable issues because a lot of people are trying to win back someone where the issues are not resolved so it's like what's the point of going back we're just going to go in the same cycle all over again they're letting this idea of I miss them I don't want to be without them blind them from the fact that you two did not get along well or you two don't want the same things or YouTube just whatever it is maybe there's a lack of sexual satisfaction I don't know why I feel the need to mention that but it happens a lot of times you have to stay focused on what led to the end and can this be corrected if it can cool but as you mentioned listen correcting it does not guarantee you they're coming back and even if they will come back you don't know when they may need so you may have figured yourself out in six months they might need a year and I would argue if you guys are truly meant for each other and at the end of the year you need a year too you're just overlooking some things and you're rushing the process because you want to get back to them yeah it's I've never found a situation where it was truly only one person who had problems and the other person was squeaky clean no no you thought you were but you got some stuff too you needed to correct of course so I think we have to be honest with ourselves and just keep striving to be better and rather than focus on winning them back just become the best you because if you do and there's a true connection there the opportunity will present itself again and you too will be able to make something of it and the struggle is that when people finally make that decision to break up or let go the study showed that the parts of your brain that are activated in a breakup are the same as detoxing from cocaine right like you're literally trying to detox so you can have a craving yeah for someone that's bad for you yeah or also it says that the areas of the brain that are activated in a breakup are the areas that are the same with physical pain so if someone like punching the stomach the reason why we say like my heart feels broken is because it literally feels like something's broken yeah so when you're going through a breakup when you're feeling the craving to be with that person again studies show that eight over eighty percent of people are looking at what their exes are doing on social media right probably through a Finster account or whatever but you have to you have to know what are some of the healthiest tips that you've given to people and the people that you've worked with that have genuinely helped people move through a breaker the first thing is to ask yourself again why was I even there why am I holding on to this individual again I think sometimes we get so blinded by just the experience or our desire to have this person for whatever reason that we Overlook what was really missing or why this could not work anyway what you'll also find is and I'm sure there's probably a study on it where if you if they broke up with you you ever see a situation it happens on TV a lot where the person could be like okay I'm gonna break up with my partner they're planning on it they've been practicing in their head right it took them a couple weeks to muster up the strength they're about to do it and then the partner breaks up with them yeah now it's oh my gosh I gotta get them back yeah so it's like you just forgot this whole time that was your plan yeah it just gave you the past to do it but now because we don't like to be the one being let go of now we're fighting hard to get it back yeah so we have to really not fall into these little traps that happen to us as human beings our brains just playing tricks on us or something where we confuse these emotions for oh my gosh I must really love them or even like you said you go into that detox and because you miss I always tell people no matter how bad the relationship was there's always good moments so if you're trying to break free you can't just let your brain focus on the good moments you have to remind yourself why this doesn't work but if you keep focusing on the good you start to make yourself think oh because I missed this good moment I must miss them and there's this quote that says sometimes you're not missing the person you're missing the feeling so you've got to be able to differentiate those two things so getting back to how we get over these breakups is recognizing why were we really there to begin with you know could this actually work the next thing is you know I'm a huge believer that a lot of times a breakup is a blessing in disguise even if there is a chance that you two can work together or this is the one for you you may have needed this time to re-evaluate and get things in order something is obviously wrong even if you it may be something as deep as because I've seen situations where everything was going amazingly well on the surface and the person broke up with them let's say the woman lets go of the man so to the man that's really confusing but what it was is that that woman she had not healed from her past relationships and this relationship being so good was scaring her and what happens is the the better you are the scarier it becomes for her she's looking for something to be wrong she has to validate her fear somehow wow when she can't find it she'll either sabotage the relationship or she'll run from it So to that man it may seem like this is so unfair which yeah it sucks but if this woman didn't break up with you now you were inevitably gonna face this same ending but at a worse time yeah all right this is still best that is happening now at least if she can go do what she needs to do there's a chance for this to come back around later but it's hard for us to see it in the moment so I think just really we also have to focus on our healing whenever a breakup happens the mistake we make is that we think it's about healing from the breakup no it's healing from everything you've been through you've probably been sleeping under the rug your childhood trauma for years maybe the last two three relationships whatever it is so and and not healing from those things is contributing to your struggle to get past this breakup and contributing to why you even chose this person to begin with I'm a huge believer that if you haven't healed you are 90 likely to choose the wrong person yeah it's just too difficult to pick that person that you truly love and can truly love you and accept that level of vulnerability when you have still not resolved your past traumas and past hurts yeah so to me that's the next big thing is just focus on your healing process because in that process you will also be able to see more clearly if this is really for you or not like walking around unhealed is like walking around with broken glasses you you can't see straight no matter how hard you try but healing will clear up your vision really really fast and now it'd be like oh wait a minute I didn't belong there yeah you know thank God the broke breakup happened you know now I'm in a better place I move forward so to me I think and I would say in addition to those things is just have an accountability partner whether that's friend coach therapist someone that can help keep you in check help remind you what you need to do someone that you know you have to talk to and update what's going on so you feel like okay I don't want to come back so I'm saying I'm doing the same thing over and over again it doesn't guarantee success but it helps it helps move the needle some so I would highly encourage that that one mindset you spoke about that that changes everything and it hit me today I was just thinking if we were just able in a moment to recognize that something painful now was going to be good for us in five years time that would change so many things in our life yes but we're so poor at dealing with current pain yeah even if it means future joy that we just can't accept that I have to go through this like in everything right like knowing that someone breaking up with you just saved you 10 years of a wasted life is so much more than knowing you're gonna have to go through a few months of pain and 10 months of pain maybe it's a bit longer maybe it's two three years but we just have to get our head around that that sometimes the best things that happen to you are protecting more of your life than the pain that they're causing you need the Peace of knowing I did what I needed to do that's it yeah because anytime you feel like well maybe I could have done this but I could have done that leaves the door open for doubt do it well exactly so it's like and that's why I'm such a big believer in you know there's people who say well once they're done they're done they'll just move on and I'm like no no Express Yourself get everything off your chest because you don't need anything to linger and you questioning well what if I did this different no make sure speak your full piece and now you can say all right I did what I had to do it is what it is I move forward and I mean it makes it easier it may not make it a hundred percent you know not an issue whatsoever but it's gonna be easier and also also for me that's why like my relationship with God is so important because that's where I find my peace in dealing with a situation that doesn't work out the way I want to I always tell myself okay if this isn't working out God has something better for me you know if this is happening right now there's a purpose because I know if I followed his guidance throughout this process there's no need for me to question why is this the current outcome there's a reason for this and I've been through these things enough times to see as you mentioned the reward is going to come it may come next week it may come years from now it will come and I'll be able to see how it all connected yeah Stefan it's been incredible talking to you man this has been such a great back-to-back flowing conversation uh we end every on purpose episode with the final five which is like a rapid fire which means every question has to be answered with one word to one sentence maximum okay so here are your final five the first question is what's the best relationship advice you've ever received or heard or given it is to love fully lovefully and be yourself because as I said earlier that's how you will expose quicker who is for you and who isn't for you second question what is the worst relationship advice you've ever heard or received get under someone to get over someone [Laughter] uh question number three uh how would you defin	if only one person's working on it you can't keep hoping and waiting and wishing and and like you said that ending doesn't mean forever and often I found that two people need to grow individually to be able to grow collectively and we're forcing growing together so hard but we need space to grow and if you can't grow together chances are you need to grow apart in order to see whether you grow together again or grow for someone else and all of those options are okay but we put so much pressure on people to grow together that they grow apart yeah and actually if they chose to grow apart and grow separately they could come back together if they learn the lessons and I think that's a mistake too though sometimes people think I'm gonna go learn this lesson for this person I meet a lot of people they're like okay they broke up with me because I wasn't XYZ now I'm gonna go become XYZ to win them back yeah and I always find I'm just like well no you should go become XYZ if you think you were missing XYZ but not to win them back because you don't know what they're gonna do what's your take on people trying to win people back so I 100 agree with you like if we're trying to learn or grow it needs to be for the benefit of who we are and just whoever we deal	3	6	8	if only one person's working on it you can't keep hoping and waiting and wishing and and like you said that ending doesn't mean forever and often I found that two people need to grow individually to be able to grow collectively and we're forcing growing together so hard but we need space to grow and if you can't grow together chances are you need to grow apart in order to see whether you grow together again or grow for someone else and all of those options are okay but we put so much pressure on people to grow together that they grow apart yeah and actually if they chose to grow apart and grow separately they could come back together if they learn the lessons and I think that's a mistake too though sometimes people think I'm gonna go learn this lesson for this person I meet a lot of people they're like okay they broke up with me because I wasn't XYZ now I'm gonna go become XYZ to win them back yeah and I always find I'm just like well no you should go become XYZ if you think you were missing XYZ but not to win them back because you don't know what they're gonna do	what's your take on people trying to win people back	4,2,5	2,1,3	4	2	5	2	1	3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPQBcb9wf8Q	4,056	mPQBcb9wf8Q	2023-03-27 00:00:00	you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you're wasting your time the best-selling author and host the number one Health and Wellness podcast on purpose with Jay Shetty what are the signs that someone deeply loves you because I feel like we live in this world where we're always wondering do they love me do they like me do they really like me are they really into me how do you know when you deeply love someone and when someone deeply loves you how do you even know so I'm gonna start with an answer that people probably won't expect to me the first key is do you truly love them because look at it like this to me a lot of people get caught up in infatuation um they have unhealthy attachments they have different motivations to why they decided this is the person that I want and that can make them feel like they're in love but to me true love flows both ways it's not a one-sided thing so when you can say I I'm not into them like that if we look deep into that situation I can almost guarantee what we'll find is infatuation attachment something else but when you can say no I feel it too I'm deeply in love with them I think that's your first key because without that nothing else matters because a lot of people are choosing Partners based off of what they love me so much so I assume it's safe here and this is a good choice to make but the safe choice is usually the wrong choice and a lot of these people select this individual thinking everything's going to be okay but because you're not really into them you can never be what they need and they were never truly what you needed which is why you never even got to that level with them so to choose them without first evaluating do you truly love them would not be wise yeah that's that's a great question and I think people struggle with that question too because I think we think of love as so many different things wrapped into one for example I could think I love someone because of how they treat me I could think I love someone because they have one quality that I really wish I had or I could love someone because I think that they're out of my league and they give me a bit of attention yeah and so what we think is love is so complex and so wide that we never stop to ask ourselves like what does love mean like what's the definition of love like how do I Define love so how do you define love and how do you encourage other people to create their definitions of Love well for me first off is always God is love and then when we take it from there love is about kindness compassion patience understanding a willingness to be selfless important to that individual but I think what's also important for people to understand is when we're trying to apply it to romantic relationships we have to understand that there's other ingredients that are necessary before we can move forward so you could love someone dearly but if they are not emotionally ready because maybe they haven't healed from their past maybe there's still some things that need to work out in their life then it wouldn't be time to move forward in a relationship with them and we have this bad habit of the minute we feel like there's love there we want to move forward exactly and as you mentioned we can get caught up sometimes in but we love them because of what they do for us but what are you prepared to do for them love is about giving all right so we have to ask ourselves okay do we know what their needs are are we willing to fulfill those needs because if not maybe this wasn't love maybe it just felt good in the moment maybe you got caught up in the hype and that's okay it happens to almost all of us if not all of us at some point in life but we have to just be real very clear with ourselves about what's really driving the intention right now but I think all those things I mentioned is what encompasses love of and that's like the foundation of it and then from there we have to look at some other things to see how we can move forward so many times like you you convince yourself something's love and what I find really interesting is that so many people fall in love too fast and no one wants to go for the slow patient understanding love which is what love requires you just said love is kind love is patient love is understanding those things take time I think those things take time to nurture and to to make sure that we're doing it correctly for each other so it's about learning each other's Love Languages and how we make it work in within that Dynamic I think also because so many people are not used to dealing with emotions at on that level being that vulnerable people mishandle it all right so it takes time for us to get to a place so we understand how to manage this and work through this however I think that I'm a huge believer in connection and I believe connection is like your spirit recognizing its match and it's very instant when you speak to couples who said they experience a connection they'll tell you first conversation first time meeting first date first week it was pretty fast so to me the the recognizing of something deeper being here can happen very quickly but how we now cultivate that and how we move forward is where we need to take our time and make sure we're not rushing and overlooking certain important issues that need to be discussed and addressed first to me it's the understanding of chemistry versus compatibility and the idea that there needs to be a spark there needs to be a connection that I feel with someone like you're saying on a deeper level but I find that I find that most people are not Adept and knowing whether the connection they feel with someone is deeper or physical yeah like I would say that it's easy to it you can often feel a spark with if you meet a lot of people you can feel a spot with a lot of people but that doesn't mean that they're the right person to build a relationship absolutely right yes so it's connection to me is a very rare occurrence right yes so I feel that people who've actually experienced it they can tell you maybe once in their life if you're lucky two times maybe all right but it's not this thing that happens with everybody whereas chemistry uh feeling of spark these things can happen with a lot of different people yeah so I do think there's there's this education that's needed to understand how we differentiate these things so that we don't confuse them because I see a lot of people take that chemistry and think oh this is it this is the one it's like but you had chemistry with the last five people why is this one the one and not them so I do think we have to be careful with that yeah I think so so we're on the same page there's three things there's connection on the deeper level there's chemistry which is like the spark on a more superficial level and then there's compatibility which is like what makes get lost and I can relate to that with my wife I definitely felt so I I'm one of those people who I kind of knew from the first few moments when I met my wife before she was my wife was like I was like yeah this is my person like I felt that way yeah for sure I felt that connection and there was chemistry there too but it had to be turned into compatibility in order to create a long lasting relationship we've been together for 10 years we're still learning building going through everything but that was a big part of it so that I can get behind is do you see it that way too or is there something different in so how do you see it believe it or not I used to make compatibility the least important but that was because I was looking at it the wrong way once I kind of looked at the definition again and compatibility is about two people coexisting in harmony yeah then I was like okay no you you have to have that I just I got caught up more so in like let's say a dating site says okay we're gonna decide who's compatible so I view compatible as like an on the paper it looks good it's supposed to match but you can have a lot of people who are supposed to be compatible and it doesn't work absolutely so I think that it's compatibility is that add-on once we have the connection and the chemistry now we have to create that Harmony which is the compatibility yes I agree with you and and it is interesting how that word compatibility is thrown around and you're so right that compatibility on paper doesn't mean compatibility in real life exactly and to me compatibility really has another word inside of it which is like adaptability and that deeper understanding of an individual where you know how much you're willing to adapt around certain parts of the relationship but we'll get to that I think a lot of people like you know and and that's where we got into this conversation around what is slow a lot of people are waiting to feel like is this person wasting my time are they the one and so they don't have a deeper connection maybe they had that spark of chemistry and now that's kind of subsided how do you know if someone's wasting your time how do you know if you're letting yourself be used or wasted in that way so to me again I think it always starts with self and you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you because just use an example let's say you're a woman and the only reason why you're holding on to this guy is because he's a nice guy you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you figure let me try to make it work you're wasting your time this is where you're setting yourself up for disaster every single time so if it's not born out of a true connection love a genuine desire you really like this individual of course there's always things we have to work through but is the foundation strong enough for us to say okay we can make something special here and I think once we are honest with ourselves that kind of helps answer the question because sometimes we get so caught up trying to animal lies the other individual that is like we get in our heads and now we're missing the mark on what's really important here and we can't always say for sure what's going on with them I will say that in general if this person isn't willing to talk about things they're wasting your time if they're not willing to address or correct things that have been talked about they're wasting your time if you guys aren't on the same page about what you want and where you want to go in life wasting time so there are some things I think we can just look at and say listen this is pointless here but a lot of times and I have to say this especially for women women's intuition is extremely powerful I'm a huge believer in it and I feel like women know very early this isn't it but they rationalize reasons to convince themselves to give this man a chance and this again is a waste of time because it just doesn't work I've seen people turn what should have been maybe a couple weeks of dating into years of being married to someone they were not happy with all because they did not listen to themselves from the beginning they knew what it was but they just could not accept it for what it was yeah and I love that point on intuition it's almost like when a relationship finally ends a lot of us think to ourselves I knew they weren't right yeah like I knew it I knew that they weren't the one but you just didn't listen to that part of yourself yes so so let's break it down for people let's help people out we started talking about three very important words connection which you defined chemistry which we've defined in compatibility which we've defined how do people know the difference between connection and chemistry when they meet someone because I find that the science shows that you're experiencing dopamine and cortisol at the same times you're experiencing the reward chemical and stress chemical at the same time which gives you that chemistry feeling which is the feeling of butterflies in your stomach or like do they like me are they into me what should I wear that kind of feeling but then you're talking about a deeper connection how do you hear the difference because I think a lot of us just get swept up in the feeling of I'm So Into that person they're so into me how do you know so I think one is are you even being yourself or can you be yourself with this individual if if you're presenting your representative then this is not a real connection this is them falling for that person that you're presenting but that's not real so to me you have you should be already being yourself but with that person you have a connection with it's a more natural flow we don't have to force it we just feel so much more comfortable around them I think in addition to that is when you when you find yourself all caught up in the moment and caught up in that chemistry again you have to ask yourself what am I really attaching myself to what about what do I really like about this individual what I find is that when it's really about chemistry we're still on the surface you don't really know about them yet you just know you guys had a good time maybe you had fun at this event you guys were able to talk about a lot of different things which is great which is gonna also be important if there is a connection however do you even know what college did they want do you know what kind of Life they want to live you know are you guys really on the same page I think connection is our paths align our purpose is align so for us to align we have to have a deeper understanding of where we're headed and can we head there together so so that's why I think though you may feel it or you may feel like you're feeling it you have to do your due diligence to dig deeper to find out okay is this just I got caught up on the surface or there is something real here yeah and I think once we ask enough questions because I think that's the other big problem we have this experience where we feel this chemistry we're so excited and now we're afraid to ask questions because we don't want to blow up the fantasy yes you know what I'm saying we're just like no no I want to keep believing this is great so let me not ask anything let me not run this person away let me not rock the boat but that's going to be what tells us if this is real or not yes I think you're I think you've hit on something there like we're so scared of losing someone that we're okay with not asking important questions and discovering important truths that actually define whether this relationship is going to last absolutely and that is ultimately going back to your point earlier that is ultimately you not being yourself right you're losing yourself scared that you're going to lose the other person so you're okay with not being yourself do you think it's ever okay this is a funny question I think but I have to ask you because I think it's a healthy discussion do you think it's ever okay to present different sides of yourself in order to attract someone or do you think that you're ultimately setting yourself up for failure in a relationship almost like I think a lot of people they may not become someone completely different but I think a lot of people are like oh I'm gonna show my smart side because it will attract this person or I'm gonna show my this side because they're like that are you saying any of that kind of molding is unhealthy or do you think there's room for that I think anything that is not sustainable is unhealthy so look at it as if I'm a man and I'm meeting this woman I want to impress her so I'm like okay I'm gonna try to spend all my money take a nice five-star restaurant all these things but deep inside I prefer a more simple lifestyle you know I don't like all that extra stuff okay that's horrible that's a sale for disaster that's unhealthy because you can't sustain what you're presenting to that individual that's gonna draw them in so whatever it is another like common example is you'll have women who love to communicate they want to be able to talk to you every single day but because they're afraid of coming off a certain kind of way they'll hold back on their communication so now they'll make it seem like they're okay with talking every now and then we don't always have to text and then this guy falls for that he falls for this low standard I won't call low standard but not having such a high expectation of him when it comes to communication then he finally gets with the woman her true self is going to come out at some point no one can suppress their true self forever it comes out and now it's like what is this I did not sign up for this now we're fighting now we're stressed because you want him to call you more he was used to you not being worried about it so much that's why it's going to always not work out so it's extremely unhealthy unless we're presenting a side of us that is truly us and we can sustain it you've hit on something again that that at the beginning of relationships we often display unrealistic standards and we set those yes and then when things shift and now you're back in reality again the other person's like but wait a minute I thought you were really into me and I even went through that with my wife when we first met I was able to spend pretty much every day with her because I didn't have a job and so I was looking for work I was applying I would go see her at her College every day and I would spend the day with her and I'd be in the library applying for jobs while she was studying yeah and I could see it every day and I think I saw every day potentially for like six months maybe every single day five days a week at least and then when I got a job that wasn't the case anymore because I was at work now and I'd set this unrealistic expectation that we could see each other all the time and even in the beginning I would see her all the time because I'd spend time with her family but we wouldn't spend time with my family because I hadn't told my family yet and so now that my family knew we were trying to split the time and all of a sudden it was like wait a minute we used to spend time at my house and so even in little things like that it took a bit of adapting because I'd set a false standard in our relationship and then thankfully my wife was adapting and she understood and she got it and it was fine but I think for so many people you set unrealistic expectations in who you are yes and that's hard to come back from absolutely yeah and that's why it's so important for us to know who we are so that we can present the real from the jump you know because again A lot of times people you know this idea that we're always changing yes I do think we're always evolving but some of the big shifts that you see are is not because that's just the way life is it's because you did take the time to figure yourself out first and then you got with this person and now you want them to adjust now thank God for you she was able to adjust but there's a lot of people that they can't handle that yeah and now everything falls apart from there so that's why yeah we have to be very careful with what we're presenting from the beginning yeah it's I I agree with you on that that we think people change but actually they just start to understand themselves exactly they went from being completely unconscious about who they were you met an unconscious version of a person yeah and now you think they're changing but they just became conscious of who they are absolutely and but the thing is Stefan as you know like Society doesn't encourage that time of getting to know yourself right when you're young you're not trained in how to think about who you want to be you're trained in thinking about what you want to I do it's about your job it's about your career you're not thinking about who you are as a human being or as a person so how do we in this Society where understanding who you are is not clear it's not encouraged where where does one start or where have you kind of found great insights in trying to discover who we are I would love to see more parents encouraging their children to explore how they're feeling about who they are like what I have found is a lot of people who let's say I I had one client where she wanted to be an actress when she was a little kid uh but parents kind of push in a different direction now she's like a social worker but her desire is still to be an actress like the things that they they wanted to do they they want to do as an adult now you can find back in their childhood in a lot of cases so I feel like too many people have stifled their children's growth in certain areas with limited ideas of well this can't make money or this wouldn't be a good look for the family or whatever the case may be it's like no let them walk in it and see for themselves if that's really where they belong outside of that for me I think the big thing is getting in tune spiritually I'm just a huge believer in that I feel like me finding myself was when I went into what I call my Wilderness period I kind of just shut everything off that I was doing because I used to be all over having fun partying all these different things things and then God kind of slapped me upside my head and I had to like really pull away from everything and go deeper from within and it felt like a process of breaking me down to build me right back up and that's when I start to see things clearer because what I realized is the world is filled with distractions and it's the distractions why we can't see ourselves for who we really are if we simply shut off the distractions long enough you will learn a lot so even if someone just took a year off don't worry you know limit the TV you're watching limit the music you're listening to limit all the internet stuff just really go deeper within yourself spend more time alone spend more time you know thinking and processing you will learn a lot because again a lot of it is it isn't a problem of we don't know ourselves we are not aware and we're not willing to accept and once we allow ourselves to do those two things become aware and then accept it we become free yeah I I mean I agree with you I think that I've always been a big proponent of solitude to understand who you are because as soon as you have another person you now have another person's opinions you have to filter yes as soon as you have another person in front of you you have another person's judgments to filter and so now you can't even say what you truly think about something because you're constantly thinking what does that person think about me and my beliefs and so understanding your beliefs in solitude allows you to be really clear about what your values and beliefs are and and that's what it's there for I think when people get into if we switch to compatibility again the idea we talked about the difference between connection and chemistry but compatibility is really interesting because a lot of people believe that relationships should be hard and they require hard work and a lot of people believe relationships should be easy and everything should just flow where have you kind of discovered your lens on that Spectrum so okay there's a there's a couple ways to look at it I think that most relationships and I'll even be more specific most relations that involve connection and true love are typically hard not because relationships have to be hard but because most people have been hurt by something in their life are holding on to past traumas haven't resolved it once they meet this individual that they feel so strongly about it is scary this is where things get difficult it's the difficultness in how do I handle this how do I manage this you'll have people feel like they're losing themselves but they're not losing themselves their true self is coming out and it's it's the self that's been hiding behind that wall they've been using for quote-unquote protection but I always say the same module to protect you the same as blocking your blessings so now they're being pulled from behind it it's it's makes them feel some kind of way and again people start to mishandle things you also have situations where people are getting bad advice like I'm gonna give one example um there's this uh book called The Game by Neil Strauss I don't know if you ever read that book yeah it was great Neil you know you you answer that world to pick up artistry we learned it and he was great with the women but then once he found that woman that he fell in love with all that stuff doesn't work anymore so you have a lot of men being taught how to handle women in general but they don't understand that's not how you handle the woman you truly love and so now again you have individuals who though they are truly in love with this person they constantly mishandle it with bad Guidance with fear and all these things this is what makes it hard and and I even think that a lot of times the people who are supposed to be together sometimes will have the hardest time getting together but I believe that once we're able to conquer that part of it and actually come together it's not hard yes it takes work I believe we have to be conscious and mindful of how we treat our partners how we show up being willing to listen but I think it's so much easier to do those things with someone you have a connection with and you're truly in love with it's gonna always feel ten times harder when you're in the wrong relationship and I would argue the vast majority of people are in the wrong relationship that's why they're seeing it be so difficult and when you see this whole it's easy typically it's easy because you have two people who are not digging deeper they're they're trying to write out that chemistry we talked about earlier for as long as possible all right so yeah it seems like it's great it's easy no issues but it doesn't really work like that because they're just not facing the reality of the situation so I think we we have to understand that there is going to be some bumps in the road because of all the things that people have been through but once we're able to come together and we know this is our partner this is who we want to share our life with it can get so much better yeah and do you do you think that people have just been given generally the wrong education on how to deal with another person in their life 100 yeah because unfortunately a lot of individuals are giving advice from a bit or hurt place there and and they're trying to disguise it as I'm just looking out for you no you you have inhaled and you cannot properly guide them in a positive and loving Manner and I think that a lot of people you know I always say it's funny how we'll spend a lot of time getting educated for the for the sake of our careers and business but we don't do the same for relationships and yet relationships arguably are even more important than that career business and even if it's not a romantic relationship just relationships in general your ability to coexist with others connect with others is extremely important if you want that business to succeed you have to learn how to establish business relationships there's no way around it so we have to learn how to talk to people listen to people you know what I'm saying and just make make things work when we come together with other individuals so I definitely think that we're just lacking in a lot of education and again too many because there's so many voices on the internet now there's just so much bad advice being given and and the individuals giving it they may be giving like let's say 80 of the advice is accurate but it's that 20 that's completely off that can derail everything and that's the stuff that people are gravitating to and this is causing a lot of problems can you give us some example of some of the like not specific people or anything like that I just mean like could you give example of bad advice and what about it is bad or unhealthy for people to try and put into practice okay so one thing I heard recently was an individual told uh said some of the best advice you can give to men is to not fall in love you know basically just find a woman you want to be with and kind of keep it there the reason why I view that as horrible advice is because you sit down with any man who's lived enough life they will all be able to say there's been at least one time they fail deeply for a woman all right the problem isn't falling deep before a woman the problem is we don't know how to handle it once we get there the problem is because we're not accustomed to handling and processing our emotions a certain kind of way and being this vulnerable we don't understand what's going to be required of us in that moment we also kind of lose sight of because I'm a big believer in masculine and feminine energy and I believe that if she was attracted to you because of that masculine energy that you give off and now you become this emotional wreck because you don't know how to handle all these feelings you have for her well you start to become less attractive to her and it's not that it's not fixable it's fixable but again a lack of understanding and awareness derails the situation so rather than telling men don't fall in love because it's inevitable let's teach them how we walk in love how we make what I call Loving in your masculine how you maintain that energy and still be able to pour into that woman in a way that allows relationship to flourish yeah and how does that work when I think obviously a lot of people in that example that you're giving if if the person is attracted to someone because of their masculine energy but at the same time they want them to be empathetic and compassionate and kind which are generally seen as more feminine energy how does that person balance the two or is that is that not how you're explaining is that no it's about balance so we have to understand we all have masculine and feminine of course within us I'm a Believer in one must be your dominant energy the other is the one you tap into when necessary so as a man you can walk in your masculine and in those moments tap into those things but you can't just stay there all the time all right you can't just become this needy emotional God that's not going to work in the vast majority of cases and so what happens is there's this messaging that's being thrown out there that women don't like good guys I don't believe that's what it is I believe that women become less attracted when you don't know how to exude and walk in your masculine energy it's and and we're hiding behind the label of good guy you can be a good guy and still exude masculine energy and that's the thing and we also think that oh they like bad boys no if you look deeper it's really the masculine energy that that quote-unquote bad boy exudes but what they desire is a mixture of both the same way that we would want a mixture of both we would want a loving sweet woman family woman whatever or and if you're a guy who wants a mask and woman cool but you don't want her to be just that you know you want her to have the ability to tap into that other side when necessary I think we all desire that balance in our partner and I think it's healthy and if we just learn how to maintain it and how to nurture it we would see greater success in relationships yeah what are some of the skills with with mastering that energy that you think we're missing out on and balancing that energy and knowing when to be which and because the reason why it's hard is I think we live in a binary world right like you feel like you have to choose like you're either a bad boy or you're a good girl you are a doer or you're a thinker you're uh winner or you're a loser right like we think like that and some people go okay you need to be masculine or I can be feminine and I I definitely relate to what you were saying like I believe that there is a lot about me that is massively masculine in energy using that language and terminology my drive my ambition how I work my strategic mind and at the same time I consider myself to have a lot of great feminine energy and qualities where it comes to like empowering others and nurturing and the ability to hold deep compassionate space and be empathetic which are all powerful qualities for for everyone right Beyond gender they're powerful qualities and I appreciate and it's taken a long time to know when to be which and it's still and I still make mistakes right there's still sometimes like I should have been more assertive I should have been more affectionate so we live in a world that finds it hard to hold two opposing ideas at the same time yeah we don't know how to do that in any sphere of life let alone within ourselves so what are some of the skills that we can learn in order to nurture both those energies in a healthy way inside of ourselves so I think one it's going to require a lot of if you're already in a relationship it's going to boil down to a lot of transparency and communication you know her if you're that man trying to understand that woman and when you can walk in those two energies her being willing to be honest and open about you know what this was too much over here or I needed some of this over here and in time you're going to become more aware and understanding it's going to be like second nature to you you won't have to overthink it and I think part of it is not overthinking it it's kind of like being ourselves but understanding that we have to learn when this is doing too much and vice versa I also think that in reality for a lot of men especially uh when we're talking about relationships and kind of losing that masculine energy the the underlying issue is fear all right when we become so afraid of losing this woman we lose ourselves and so a lot of men now fall into this very feminine needy space because they're just afraid we have to learn that listen like to me I feel if your partner thinks you're never gonna walk away from them no matter what they do you've lost that's that's a horrible place to be in we have to get to a place where we both understand that as long as we show up the way that we need to show up for each other we have each other's back we will be here but neither of us will tolerate an unhealthy relationship and someone who blatantly does not want to work on making this better I would want my the woman I'm with to feel that way and I need to feel that way once we understand that and you have the confidence of I can walk away if I have to that shifts your energy right there in itself and now you don't find yourself falling into that place where again you start to look a lot more unattractive or for some men they become yes men in their relationships thinking that makes her happy that's turning her off she doesn't want you to be her yes man she wants you to stand up for yourself sometimes give your opinion give your perspective she wants to be able to you know if anything be able to have discussions with you about these things not just you say whatever you want whatever you want whatever you want over time it becomes a problem so I think that once we conquer that fear once we create a space where we can talk about these moments and not feel some kind of way I think sometimes men are not they struggle with taking the criticism from their partner men and women we we all do when we feel when we have actual feelings for someone you know we don't care about you it's not as big of a deal but we're emotionally invested we're more sensitive to it but we have to understand that these criticisms are for the sake of making things better and strengthening this relationship so once we can get to that place it's going to be so much easier to grow in it and then I think it's just a matter of understanding that it's this balance isn't just for your relationship so look at it like from a sports perspective if I'm on a basketball team there may be moments where I need to take the lead and recognize all right everyone else is down someone needs to step up this is my moment and then there's other moments where I realize okay let's say we already have a team captain let me show them that I can follow serve do what needs to be done so that the team can win it's just becoming aware of what the moment requires you know and again I think the more in tune we get the more in tune we get with ourselves and the more in tune we get with our partner the easier it becomes to find that balance that's the challenge right the challenge is just how much patience we have with ourselves and others to realize that you walked into an imbalance unbalanced situation and now it's like how much patience how much time are we going to give it to get to that because the challenge is I think we walk into a situation thinking it's perfect whereas we should be walking into a relationship knowing it's imperfect absolutely and we're going to learn and figure it out together and I think that's what sets us up for failure is because we walk into it going it's perfect and deep down we know it isn't but somehow we gloss over it whereas I find when I know we're gonna fight when I know we're gonna argue and I know there's going to be disagreements that sets me up to develop the skills I need in order to navigate those things yes but if I assume like oh we're never gonna fight and I always get that right we always meet someone who goes to I mean a friend who goes to me Jay we never fight I'm like how long have you been together because I don't I don't know anyone who never fights I get that no one has to get to like yeah the heights of fights yeah I did that I did that it doesn't have to be a heated fight but I don't know anyone who doesn't disagree there you go all right right I think that's important for people to understand yeah there's a difference yes you have some individuals out there that'll say arguing is normal it's healthy and to me it's like listen if we're talking about arguing where we're now Crossing disrespectful lines negative lines you know the way that we the tone we take with each other all these things that's not healthy yes it may happen you should be prepared for that but it does let's not normalize it just gonna keep doing this and it's it is what it is but you're right to to be with each other long enough and never have a disagreement that's extremely rare okay extremely rare and I do think that again as you mentioned we have to be ready for those moments we have to understand and going back to how we find that balance especially as men and even for women it's recognizing so for example if my partner is in a very heated moment let's say she's in her masculine right now all right she's getting rough well meeting her with more masculine is probably going to only make things worse yeah this is the time for me to be compassionate go to her hold her calm her down bring her peace in that moment you see because it we need to balance each other out same thing on the flip side if I'm all heated and I'm I'm extra passionate and then my woman now comes with that same energy that's it now where button has this is her moment to say no let me now be the one to soften the moment up bring that Sweetness in there and everybody calms down so it's learning how to feed off of each other and recognize okay they're over here let me bring it back over here and now we can work from that point and we're both good the problem is that we all see compassion and sweetness and kindness in those moments as a weakness we don't want to be that person because we see that as losing we see that as giving in we see that as us losing our power and strength in a relationship if we become the comforter or if we become the carer right like that's that's a perception that is the perception and we have to change that that is the power position so who is more powerful the person that lets the energy dictate them how they're going to react or the person that brings the energy and dictates how they're going to make this situation play out so if I'm coming in to calm it down and being all sweet because I'm trying to bring peace here I'm in the power position I'm not losing anything I'm gonna gain more peace and happiness and Harmony if I succeed in what I'm trying to do so we have to get out of that mindset of this makes us weaker and that is the big key of it that's a big problem that for a lot of women who struggle with their feminine energy that's a big issue where they feel that being feminine is weakness it's what got them taken advantage of and got them hurt but I always say it's not the feminine energy that's the problem it's who you give it to do they respect it did they honor it you know it's the same thing as a man does she respect your masculine if she doesn't then that might just be a sign you're with the wrong person but don't stop being that guy because the woman who's best for you is going to need that in those moments that that's exactly what it is is that when people have been their best selves for the wrong person that person brings out the worst in them yes right like when someone's been their best loving kindness self but someone took advantage of it that person now thinks next time I've got to be aggressive I've got to be you know powerful I've got to be strong in this way and I feel like that's kind of what most people are dealing with we know that is that you're just dealing with a wounded version of someone yes not a healed version of someone but I think people struggle to trust again and again especially when they see the same patterns in the person they're weird and I guess the question is why do we keep making the same mistakes because I feel like a lot of us keep dating the same people yeah and there's a part of us that also just keeps closing off or being more wounded it's almost like if you cut yourself you now walk around with your hand over that you don't want to get cut again and then if you lead it off and it gets cut even deeper now you're even more conscious of that and so I find that people are doing that where they're closing their heart more and more because it's been so misused and abused and I understand that I understand people don't want to be abused and misused but I guess the question is how do people find people that they know respect them so that they can be their best version or be a better version of themselves so you know you can't drive out Darkness with more Darkness you can't expose someone who's gonna hurt you by being someone who's closed off and holding back yourself we have it's kind of what we were just talking about we have to look at being vulnerable loving and open as not just well I'm setting myself to be hurt no it's how you expose people faster if I come with that energy and you cannot respect it match it then I know you don't belong here but if I hold back I give you a free pass to hold back so now we have two individuals who are hiding behind their walls because it's comfortable there but you can't really see what's what do we really have in front of us those walls are blinding you and you can't properly evaluate the situation so one we we got to get to a place of healing from our past so that we're not just walking around with the hand over the cut no you you gotta let the cup breathe you gotta let it heal all right holding on put your hand on there is delaying the process and like you said all that's gonna happen is when you finally take your hand off but you're taking it off with the wrong person and you haven't learned see what I want people to realize is your actions weren't the problem meaning you being loving sweet kind compassionate wasn't the problem it was the person separate those two things that you don't stop doing the good things now granted are there levels to this to where we have to learn again if I'm thinking about a man if you got so deeply emotional to where you kind of lost your your masculine energy and you became very needy okay you can say all right I need to continue to be loving but I know I have to learn how to draw a line I have to learn how not to cross that moment and again you only crossed it because you were unhealthy to begin with you only cross it because you were afraid to begin with once you get to that place where you're healthy and confident you won't find yourself Crossing that line anymore yeah you won't tolerate certain things anymore so we have to heal we have to be confident and we have to let our light shine so that we can expose what's in front of us easier that's a brilliant answer I I love the differentiation between how sharing your light is not the problem the person's the problem because we yeah we start to doubt whether being a good person a loving person is actually what wins in the world yeah and the truth is that it does win but it has to win with someone who can receive it and absolutely hold that space with you and share that space with you and I find that a lot of people keep giving that energy to the wrong person because we feel we can make them better right like there's this feeling of like I can change this person I can make them better I can heal them there's some of us want to fix people yeah and that means we assume the person we're with is broken and I think this is such a subconscious thing like if you're always critiquing if you're always picking at stuff with your partner chances are you don't think they're great like just now you think there's some issues with them when you think that you can fix them and they're broken tell us about that angle where now we're almost we've talked about being the loving and kind person but sometimes we're being the person that thinks we're loving and kind because we want to improve someone but that person doesn't want to improve one big problem is that what's really driving people to pick that individual is that by being the one that can upgrade you improve you I have more value here by having more value I have a false sense of security you have to appreciate me you're less likely to walk away you're less likely to cheat because you're lucky to have me I feel like I'm the prize here but those situations never really work because again you're choosing someone that is not capable of pouring into you the way you need you're basing this off of what you could do for them and that's not sustainable and you're choosing them because again you have more emotional control here what happens to so many people especially women it's something that I call the unhealthy love cycle of women where women in their first love experience outside of any childhood trauma may have experienced they're their most loving they're just out there they go all the way in but that typically happens at a younger age at an age where men are not mature enough to handle those kind of emotions that level of commitment so on and so forth so she gets hurt after she gets hurt her moment is saying to herself I will never let this happen to me again so now the woman starts to consciously or subconsciously choose men who are I don't want to say lower than hurt but essentially a man who does not take her there he's good enough to be with but I'm not that vulnerable with him he can't hurt me like that first love hurt me and so that Dynamic usually leads to picking that person I can fix I can make better who will appreciate and respect me but again it doesn't work out and many times you'll see these same situations the guy will move on to cheat on her not because and I have to say this because some women think yeah he's just being a man no not because he's a man but because you chose a man that you could never be the woman that he needed and he could never be the man that you needed once he kind of either gets what he needs from you to build himself up or the Smoke Clears from him being infatuated with you he starts to realize I'm not getting everything that I desire and now you building him up has brought him more attention from other women so now the the difference between what you're not giving him and what someone else is willing to give him becomes way clearer now the Temptation gets way stronger and he ends up doing something or she ends up cheating as well because he's safe but he doesn't fulfill her he doesn't satisfy her he he doesn't excite her in any kind of way and that's why I always said earlier like the safe choice is almost always the wrong choice but that is a function of people trying to choose these fix or uppers because they think it's going to give them some leverage there it's leverage that's it yeah it's leverage yeah how do you know when it's time to go like how do you know when it's like I feel like this is a common question where it's like how do you know when it's just I've tried everything we've tried together tried our best maybe we went to therapy maybe we got a coach or maybe you know maybe we didn't do those things how do I just know that I feel like I need to go but I'm scared of being alone yeah I'm I'm scared of dealing with the reality that I put in a lot of energy and I feel like you said this earlier but a lot of people stay in something for a lot longer than they should because they'd rather not be alone yes they'd rather not face reality they'd rather not lose two years of their life they'd rather lose two more thinking that this this should stay like how do you know when it's time to go let me first say this yes I think I think Society needs to change their thinking as far as Letting Go doesn't always mean it can't work out later it's just that it cannot work out under these circumstances all right because some people say well I feel like they're the one okay maybe they are but maybe the time is not right and it's letting go that will allow you both to do what needs to be done in your own personal lives that would allow you to come back together and have something way more amazing so that's number one thing to consider but outside of that it's when one if that person is unwilling to put in the work necessary it's time to go there's like so many times I'll I'll have a video go up about communication and someone will comment saying I've tried talking to him and he doesn't want to talk to me and in my head I'm like why are you still with them if he refuses to talk to you you've already tried there's nothing else to do but people will let it Linger on and continue why they can why they consistently complain or unhappy about this specific issue it's not gonna magically get better they're not gonna just change it just because all of a sudden they see oh it needs to change no if they're fighting it now they have no reason to change it and what people have to understand you know especially with this whole trying to fix people up healing and facing your traumas is one of the hardest things for people to do so if they already have you in their life they're essentially getting the incentive or the benefit of relationship without having to do the deeper work it's almost like if I'm at a job and the job says you need to have a master's degree to work here but we're going to hire you anyway and give you time to get that master's degree if getting that degree is super hard to you you're gonna drag that out as long as possible yeah you may never get the degree until they fire you when they fire you and you realize oh my gosh if I don't do this I'll never get this person back I'll never get this opportunity back now they might go and get it because it's very tough to walk down the path of the healing process so if they're not willing to work on it you guys have already discussed it and I think that's a big thing because there's a lot of relationships that end and the couples don't even know what the real issue was so the communication they'll say well we talked about no you guys argued you guys lashed out there wasn't a clear communication as to what the problem was what is expected how do we go about this if you've done that and I believe one of the most effective ways to do that is through a letter because I feel like verbal communication of deep issues and concerns they typically don't go well you know people get distracted they forget what they want to say the other person gets defensive they're not they're listening to rebuttal not to understand but when there's a letter involved it gives you time to get everything out you can you can evaluate your tone leave no stone unturned and now they have an opportunity to process it on their time to really take it in and then you guys can come together and discuss the letter and now it's so much easier to stay on point and get everything covered if we've done that and they're still unwilling or there's still no progress It's Time to Go yeah that's great that's great advice and I for me that's the biggest one it's like you can't make something last if only one person's working on it you can't keep hoping and waiting and wishing and and like you said that ending doesn't mean forever and often I found that two people need to grow individually to be able to grow collectively and we're forcing growing together so hard but we need space to grow and if you can't grow together chances are you need to grow apart in order to see whether you grow together again or grow for someone else and all of those options are okay but we put so much pressure on people to grow together that they grow apart yeah and actually if they chose to grow apart and grow separately they could come back together if they learn the lessons and I think that's a mistake too though sometimes people think I'm gonna go learn this lesson for this person I meet a lot of people they're like okay they broke up with me because I wasn't XYZ now I'm gonna go become XYZ to win them back yeah and I always find I'm just like well no you should go become XYZ if you think you were missing XYZ but not to win them back because you don't know what they're gonna do what's your take on people trying to win people back so I 100 agree with you like if we're trying to learn or grow it needs to be for the benefit of who we are and just whoever we deal with so was almost like if I was a bad Communicator in this relationship I shouldn't learn to better communicate for that person I need to better communicate for whoever I'm going to be with if you can't see it in that light then maybe you're looking at the wrong thing my thing is this I think it all depends on what the details of the situation was what led to the breakup what were you overlooking what was missing are these fixable issues because a lot of people are trying to win back someone where the issues are not resolved so it's like what's the point of going back we're just going to go in the same cycle all over again they're letting this idea of I miss them I don't want to be without them blind them from the fact that you two did not get along well or you two don't want the same things or YouTube just whatever it is maybe there's a lack of sexual satisfaction I don't know why I feel the need to mention that but it happens a lot of times you have to stay focused on what led to the end and can this be corrected if it can cool but as you mentioned listen correcting it does not guarantee you they're coming back and even if they will come back you don't know when they may need so you may have figured yourself out in six months they might need a year and I would argue if you guys are truly meant for each other and at the end of the year you need a year too you're just overlooking some things and you're rushing the process because you want to get back to them yeah it's I've never found a situation where it was truly only one person who had problems and the other person was squeaky clean no no you thought you were but you got some stuff too you needed to correct of course so I think we have to be honest with ourselves and just keep striving to be better and rather than focus on winning them back just become the best you because if you do and there's a true connection there the opportunity will present itself again and you too will be able to make something of it and the struggle is that when people finally make that decision to break up or let go the study showed that the parts of your brain that are activated in a breakup are the same as detoxing from cocaine right like you're literally trying to detox so you can have a craving yeah for someone that's bad for you yeah or also it says that the areas of the brain that are activated in a breakup are the areas that are the same with physical pain so if someone like punching the stomach the reason why we say like my heart feels broken is because it literally feels like something's broken yeah so when you're going through a breakup when you're feeling the craving to be with that person again studies show that eight over eighty percent of people are looking at what their exes are doing on social media right probably through a Finster account or whatever but you have to you have to know what are some of the healthiest tips that you've given to people and the people that you've worked with that have genuinely helped people move through a breaker the first thing is to ask yourself again why was I even there why am I holding on to this individual again I think sometimes we get so blinded by just the experience or our desire to have this person for whatever reason that we Overlook what was really missing or why this could not work anyway what you'll also find is and I'm sure there's probably a study on it where if you if they broke up with you you ever see a situation it happens on TV a lot where the person could be like okay I'm gonna break up with my partner they're planning on it they've been practicing in their head right it took them a couple weeks to muster up the strength they're about to do it and then the partner breaks up with them yeah now it's oh my gosh I gotta get them back yeah so it's like you just forgot this whole time that was your plan yeah it just gave you the past to do it but now because we don't like to be the one being let go of now we're fighting hard to get it back yeah so we have to really not fall into these little traps that happen to us as human beings our brains just playing tricks on us or something where we confuse these emotions for oh my gosh I must really love them or even like you said you go into that detox and because you miss I always tell people no matter how bad the relationship was there's always good moments so if you're trying to break free you can't just let your brain focus on the good moments you have to remind yourself why this doesn't work but if you keep focusing on the good you start to make yourself think oh because I missed this good moment I must miss them and there's this quote that says sometimes you're not missing the person you're missing the feeling so you've got to be able to differentiate those two things so getting back to how we get over these breakups is recognizing why were we really there to begin with you know could this actually work the next thing is you know I'm a huge believer that a lot of times a breakup is a blessing in disguise even if there is a chance that you two can work together or this is the one for you you may have needed this time to re-evaluate and get things in order something is obviously wrong even if you it may be something as deep as because I've seen situations where everything was going amazingly well on the surface and the person broke up with them let's say the woman lets go of the man so to the man that's really confusing but what it was is that that woman she had not healed from her past relationships and this relationship being so good was scaring her and what happens is the the better you are the scarier it becomes for her she's looking for something to be wrong she has to validate her fear somehow wow when she can't find it she'll either sabotage the relationship or she'll run from it So to that man it may seem like this is so unfair which yeah it sucks but if this woman didn't break up with you now you were inevitably gonna face this same ending but at a worse time yeah all right this is still best that is happening now at least if she can go do what she needs to do there's a chance for this to come back around later but it's hard for us to see it in the moment so I think just really we also have to focus on our healing whenever a breakup happens the mistake we make is that we think it's about healing from the breakup no it's healing from everything you've been through you've probably been sleeping under the rug your childhood trauma for years maybe the last two three relationships whatever it is so and and not healing from those things is contributing to your struggle to get past this breakup and contributing to why you even chose this person to begin with I'm a huge believer that if you haven't healed you are 90 likely to choose the wrong person yeah it's just too difficult to pick that person that you truly love and can truly love you and accept that level of vulnerability when you have still not resolved your past traumas and past hurts yeah so to me that's the next big thing is just focus on your healing process because in that process you will also be able to see more clearly if this is really for you or not like walking around unhealed is like walking around with broken glasses you you can't see straight no matter how hard you try but healing will clear up your vision really really fast and now it'd be like oh wait a minute I didn't belong there yeah you know thank God the broke breakup happened you know now I'm in a better place I move forward so to me I think and I would say in addition to those things is just have an accountability partner whether that's friend coach therapist someone that can help keep you in check help remind you what you need to do someone that you know you have to talk to and update what's going on so you feel like okay I don't want to come back so I'm saying I'm doing the same thing over and over again it doesn't guarantee success but it helps it helps move the needle some so I would highly encourage that that one mindset you spoke about that that changes everything and it hit me today I was just thinking if we were just able in a moment to recognize that something painful now was going to be good for us in five years time that would change so many things in our life yes but we're so poor at dealing with current pain yeah even if it means future joy that we just can't accept that I have to go through this like in everything right like knowing that someone breaking up with you just saved you 10 years of a wasted life is so much more than knowing you're gonna have to go through a few months of pain and 10 months of pain maybe it's a bit longer maybe it's two three years but we just have to get our head around that that sometimes the best things that happen to you are protecting more of your life than the pain that they're causing you need the Peace of knowing I did what I needed to do that's it yeah because anytime you feel like well maybe I could have done this but I could have done that leaves the door open for doubt do it well exactly so it's like and that's why I'm such a big believer in you know there's people who say well once they're done they're done they'll just move on and I'm like no no Express Yourself get everything off your chest because you don't need anything to linger and you questioning well what if I did this different no make sure speak your full piece and now you can say all right I did what I had to do it is what it is I move forward and I mean it makes it easier it may not make it a hundred percent you know not an issue whatsoever but it's gonna be easier and also also for me that's why like my relationship with God is so important because that's where I find my peace in dealing with a situation that doesn't work out the way I want to I always tell myself okay if this isn't working out God has something better for me you know if this is happening right now there's a purpose because I know if I followed his guidance throughout this process there's no need for me to question why is this the current outcome there's a reason for this and I've been through these things enough times to see as you mentioned the reward is going to come it may come next week it may come years from now it will come and I'll be able to see how it all connected yeah Stefan it's been incredible talking to you man this has been such a great back-to-back flowing conversation uh we end every on purpose episode with the final five which is like a rapid fire which means every question has to be answered with one word to one sentence maximum okay so here are your final five the first question is what's the best relationship advice you've ever received or heard or given it is to love fully lovefully and be yourself because as I said earlier that's how you will expose quicker who is for you and who isn't for you second question what is the worst relationship advice you've ever heard or received get under someone to get over someone [Laughter] uh question number three uh how would you defin	with so was almost like if I was a bad Communicator in this relationship I shouldn't learn to better communicate for that person I need to better communicate for whoever I'm going to be with if you can't see it in that light then maybe you're looking at the wrong thing my thing is this I think it all depends on what the details of the situation was what led to the breakup what were you overlooking what was missing are these fixable issues because a lot of people are trying to win back someone where the issues are not resolved so it's like what's the point of going back we're just going to go in the same cycle all over again they're letting this idea of I miss them I don't want to be without them blind them from the fact that you two did not get along well or you two don't want the same things or YouTube just whatever it is maybe there's a lack of sexual satisfaction I don't know why I feel the need to mention that but it happens a lot of times you have to stay focused on what led to the end and can this be corrected if it can cool but as you mentioned listen correcting it does not guarantee you they're coming back and even if they will come back you don't know when they may need so you may have figured yourself out in six months they might need	6	4	8	with so was almost like if I was a bad Communicator in this relationship I shouldn't learn to better communicate for that person I need to better communicate for whoever I'm going to be with if you can't see it in that light then maybe you're looking at the wrong thing	my thing is this I think it all depends on what the details of the situation was what led to the breakup what were you overlooking what was missing are these fixable issues because a lot of people are trying to win back someone where the issues are not resolved so it's like what's the point of going back we're just going to go in the same cycle all over again	2,4,6	4,6,3	2	4	6	4	6	3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPQBcb9wf8Q	4,056	mPQBcb9wf8Q	2023-03-27 00:00:00	you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you're wasting your time the best-selling author and host the number one Health and Wellness podcast on purpose with Jay Shetty what are the signs that someone deeply loves you because I feel like we live in this world where we're always wondering do they love me do they like me do they really like me are they really into me how do you know when you deeply love someone and when someone deeply loves you how do you even know so I'm gonna start with an answer that people probably won't expect to me the first key is do you truly love them because look at it like this to me a lot of people get caught up in infatuation um they have unhealthy attachments they have different motivations to why they decided this is the person that I want and that can make them feel like they're in love but to me true love flows both ways it's not a one-sided thing so when you can say I I'm not into them like that if we look deep into that situation I can almost guarantee what we'll find is infatuation attachment something else but when you can say no I feel it too I'm deeply in love with them I think that's your first key because without that nothing else matters because a lot of people are choosing Partners based off of what they love me so much so I assume it's safe here and this is a good choice to make but the safe choice is usually the wrong choice and a lot of these people select this individual thinking everything's going to be okay but because you're not really into them you can never be what they need and they were never truly what you needed which is why you never even got to that level with them so to choose them without first evaluating do you truly love them would not be wise yeah that's that's a great question and I think people struggle with that question too because I think we think of love as so many different things wrapped into one for example I could think I love someone because of how they treat me I could think I love someone because they have one quality that I really wish I had or I could love someone because I think that they're out of my league and they give me a bit of attention yeah and so what we think is love is so complex and so wide that we never stop to ask ourselves like what does love mean like what's the definition of love like how do I Define love so how do you define love and how do you encourage other people to create their definitions of Love well for me first off is always God is love and then when we take it from there love is about kindness compassion patience understanding a willingness to be selfless important to that individual but I think what's also important for people to understand is when we're trying to apply it to romantic relationships we have to understand that there's other ingredients that are necessary before we can move forward so you could love someone dearly but if they are not emotionally ready because maybe they haven't healed from their past maybe there's still some things that need to work out in their life then it wouldn't be time to move forward in a relationship with them and we have this bad habit of the minute we feel like there's love there we want to move forward exactly and as you mentioned we can get caught up sometimes in but we love them because of what they do for us but what are you prepared to do for them love is about giving all right so we have to ask ourselves okay do we know what their needs are are we willing to fulfill those needs because if not maybe this wasn't love maybe it just felt good in the moment maybe you got caught up in the hype and that's okay it happens to almost all of us if not all of us at some point in life but we have to just be real very clear with ourselves about what's really driving the intention right now but I think all those things I mentioned is what encompasses love of and that's like the foundation of it and then from there we have to look at some other things to see how we can move forward so many times like you you convince yourself something's love and what I find really interesting is that so many people fall in love too fast and no one wants to go for the slow patient understanding love which is what love requires you just said love is kind love is patient love is understanding those things take time I think those things take time to nurture and to to make sure that we're doing it correctly for each other so it's about learning each other's Love Languages and how we make it work in within that Dynamic I think also because so many people are not used to dealing with emotions at on that level being that vulnerable people mishandle it all right so it takes time for us to get to a place so we understand how to manage this and work through this however I think that I'm a huge believer in connection and I believe connection is like your spirit recognizing its match and it's very instant when you speak to couples who said they experience a connection they'll tell you first conversation first time meeting first date first week it was pretty fast so to me the the recognizing of something deeper being here can happen very quickly but how we now cultivate that and how we move forward is where we need to take our time and make sure we're not rushing and overlooking certain important issues that need to be discussed and addressed first to me it's the understanding of chemistry versus compatibility and the idea that there needs to be a spark there needs to be a connection that I feel with someone like you're saying on a deeper level but I find that I find that most people are not Adept and knowing whether the connection they feel with someone is deeper or physical yeah like I would say that it's easy to it you can often feel a spark with if you meet a lot of people you can feel a spot with a lot of people but that doesn't mean that they're the right person to build a relationship absolutely right yes so it's connection to me is a very rare occurrence right yes so I feel that people who've actually experienced it they can tell you maybe once in their life if you're lucky two times maybe all right but it's not this thing that happens with everybody whereas chemistry uh feeling of spark these things can happen with a lot of different people yeah so I do think there's there's this education that's needed to understand how we differentiate these things so that we don't confuse them because I see a lot of people take that chemistry and think oh this is it this is the one it's like but you had chemistry with the last five people why is this one the one and not them so I do think we have to be careful with that yeah I think so so we're on the same page there's three things there's connection on the deeper level there's chemistry which is like the spark on a more superficial level and then there's compatibility which is like what makes get lost and I can relate to that with my wife I definitely felt so I I'm one of those people who I kind of knew from the first few moments when I met my wife before she was my wife was like I was like yeah this is my person like I felt that way yeah for sure I felt that connection and there was chemistry there too but it had to be turned into compatibility in order to create a long lasting relationship we've been together for 10 years we're still learning building going through everything but that was a big part of it so that I can get behind is do you see it that way too or is there something different in so how do you see it believe it or not I used to make compatibility the least important but that was because I was looking at it the wrong way once I kind of looked at the definition again and compatibility is about two people coexisting in harmony yeah then I was like okay no you you have to have that I just I got caught up more so in like let's say a dating site says okay we're gonna decide who's compatible so I view compatible as like an on the paper it looks good it's supposed to match but you can have a lot of people who are supposed to be compatible and it doesn't work absolutely so I think that it's compatibility is that add-on once we have the connection and the chemistry now we have to create that Harmony which is the compatibility yes I agree with you and and it is interesting how that word compatibility is thrown around and you're so right that compatibility on paper doesn't mean compatibility in real life exactly and to me compatibility really has another word inside of it which is like adaptability and that deeper understanding of an individual where you know how much you're willing to adapt around certain parts of the relationship but we'll get to that I think a lot of people like you know and and that's where we got into this conversation around what is slow a lot of people are waiting to feel like is this person wasting my time are they the one and so they don't have a deeper connection maybe they had that spark of chemistry and now that's kind of subsided how do you know if someone's wasting your time how do you know if you're letting yourself be used or wasted in that way so to me again I think it always starts with self and you have to be honest with yourself about why are you still here why are you holding on what's really driving you because just use an example let's say you're a woman and the only reason why you're holding on to this guy is because he's a nice guy you don't feel like starting the process over with somebody else so even though you're not feeling it with him you figure let me try to make it work you're wasting your time this is where you're setting yourself up for disaster every single time so if it's not born out of a true connection love a genuine desire you really like this individual of course there's always things we have to work through but is the foundation strong enough for us to say okay we can make something special here and I think once we are honest with ourselves that kind of helps answer the question because sometimes we get so caught up trying to animal lies the other individual that is like we get in our heads and now we're missing the mark on what's really important here and we can't always say for sure what's going on with them I will say that in general if this person isn't willing to talk about things they're wasting your time if they're not willing to address or correct things that have been talked about they're wasting your time if you guys aren't on the same page about what you want and where you want to go in life wasting time so there are some things I think we can just look at and say listen this is pointless here but a lot of times and I have to say this especially for women women's intuition is extremely powerful I'm a huge believer in it and I feel like women know very early this isn't it but they rationalize reasons to convince themselves to give this man a chance and this again is a waste of time because it just doesn't work I've seen people turn what should have been maybe a couple weeks of dating into years of being married to someone they were not happy with all because they did not listen to themselves from the beginning they knew what it was but they just could not accept it for what it was yeah and I love that point on intuition it's almost like when a relationship finally ends a lot of us think to ourselves I knew they weren't right yeah like I knew it I knew that they weren't the one but you just didn't listen to that part of yourself yes so so let's break it down for people let's help people out we started talking about three very important words connection which you defined chemistry which we've defined in compatibility which we've defined how do people know the difference between connection and chemistry when they meet someone because I find that the science shows that you're experiencing dopamine and cortisol at the same times you're experiencing the reward chemical and stress chemical at the same time which gives you that chemistry feeling which is the feeling of butterflies in your stomach or like do they like me are they into me what should I wear that kind of feeling but then you're talking about a deeper connection how do you hear the difference because I think a lot of us just get swept up in the feeling of I'm So Into that person they're so into me how do you know so I think one is are you even being yourself or can you be yourself with this individual if if you're presenting your representative then this is not a real connection this is them falling for that person that you're presenting but that's not real so to me you have you should be already being yourself but with that person you have a connection with it's a more natural flow we don't have to force it we just feel so much more comfortable around them I think in addition to that is when you when you find yourself all caught up in the moment and caught up in that chemistry again you have to ask yourself what am I really attaching myself to what about what do I really like about this individual what I find is that when it's really about chemistry we're still on the surface you don't really know about them yet you just know you guys had a good time maybe you had fun at this event you guys were able to talk about a lot of different things which is great which is gonna also be important if there is a connection however do you even know what college did they want do you know what kind of Life they want to live you know are you guys really on the same page I think connection is our paths align our purpose is align so for us to align we have to have a deeper understanding of where we're headed and can we head there together so so that's why I think though you may feel it or you may feel like you're feeling it you have to do your due diligence to dig deeper to find out okay is this just I got caught up on the surface or there is something real here yeah and I think once we ask enough questions because I think that's the other big problem we have this experience where we feel this chemistry we're so excited and now we're afraid to ask questions because we don't want to blow up the fantasy yes you know what I'm saying we're just like no no I want to keep believing this is great so let me not ask anything let me not run this person away let me not rock the boat but that's going to be what tells us if this is real or not yes I think you're I think you've hit on something there like we're so scared of losing someone that we're okay with not asking important questions and discovering important truths that actually define whether this relationship is going to last absolutely and that is ultimately going back to your point earlier that is ultimately you not being yourself right you're losing yourself scared that you're going to lose the other person so you're okay with not being yourself do you think it's ever okay this is a funny question I think but I have to ask you because I think it's a healthy discussion do you think it's ever okay to present different sides of yourself in order to attract someone or do you think that you're ultimately setting yourself up for failure in a relationship almost like I think a lot of people they may not become someone completely different but I think a lot of people are like oh I'm gonna show my smart side because it will attract this person or I'm gonna show my this side because they're like that are you saying any of that kind of molding is unhealthy or do you think there's room for that I think anything that is not sustainable is unhealthy so look at it as if I'm a man and I'm meeting this woman I want to impress her so I'm like okay I'm gonna try to spend all my money take a nice five-star restaurant all these things but deep inside I prefer a more simple lifestyle you know I don't like all that extra stuff okay that's horrible that's a sale for disaster that's unhealthy because you can't sustain what you're presenting to that individual that's gonna draw them in so whatever it is another like common example is you'll have women who love to communicate they want to be able to talk to you every single day but because they're afraid of coming off a certain kind of way they'll hold back on their communication so now they'll make it seem like they're okay with talking every now and then we don't always have to text and then this guy falls for that he falls for this low standard I won't call low standard but not having such a high expectation of him when it comes to communication then he finally gets with the woman her true self is going to come out at some point no one can suppress their true self forever it comes out and now it's like what is this I did not sign up for this now we're fighting now we're stressed because you want him to call you more he was used to you not being worried about it so much that's why it's going to always not work out so it's extremely unhealthy unless we're presenting a side of us that is truly us and we can sustain it you've hit on something again that that at the beginning of relationships we often display unrealistic standards and we set those yes and then when things shift and now you're back in reality again the other person's like but wait a minute I thought you were really into me and I even went through that with my wife when we first met I was able to spend pretty much every day with her because I didn't have a job and so I was looking for work I was applying I would go see her at her College every day and I would spend the day with her and I'd be in the library applying for jobs while she was studying yeah and I could see it every day and I think I saw every day potentially for like six months maybe every single day five days a week at least and then when I got a job that wasn't the case anymore because I was at work now and I'd set this unrealistic expectation that we could see each other all the time and even in the beginning I would see her all the time because I'd spend time with her family but we wouldn't spend time with my family because I hadn't told my family yet and so now that my family knew we were trying to split the time and all of a sudden it was like wait a minute we used to spend time at my house and so even in little things like that it took a bit of adapting because I'd set a false standard in our relationship and then thankfully my wife was adapting and she understood and she got it and it was fine but I think for so many people you set unrealistic expectations in who you are yes and that's hard to come back from absolutely yeah and that's why it's so important for us to know who we are so that we can present the real from the jump you know because again A lot of times people you know this idea that we're always changing yes I do think we're always evolving but some of the big shifts that you see are is not because that's just the way life is it's because you did take the time to figure yourself out first and then you got with this person and now you want them to adjust now thank God for you she was able to adjust but there's a lot of people that they can't handle that yeah and now everything falls apart from there so that's why yeah we have to be very careful with what we're presenting from the beginning yeah it's I I agree with you on that that we think people change but actually they just start to understand themselves exactly they went from being completely unconscious about who they were you met an unconscious version of a person yeah and now you think they're changing but they just became conscious of who they are absolutely and but the thing is Stefan as you know like Society doesn't encourage that time of getting to know yourself right when you're young you're not trained in how to think about who you want to be you're trained in thinking about what you want to I do it's about your job it's about your career you're not thinking about who you are as a human being or as a person so how do we in this Society where understanding who you are is not clear it's not encouraged where where does one start or where have you kind of found great insights in trying to discover who we are I would love to see more parents encouraging their children to explore how they're feeling about who they are like what I have found is a lot of people who let's say I I had one client where she wanted to be an actress when she was a little kid uh but parents kind of push in a different direction now she's like a social worker but her desire is still to be an actress like the things that they they wanted to do they they want to do as an adult now you can find back in their childhood in a lot of cases so I feel like too many people have stifled their children's growth in certain areas with limited ideas of well this can't make money or this wouldn't be a good look for the family or whatever the case may be it's like no let them walk in it and see for themselves if that's really where they belong outside of that for me I think the big thing is getting in tune spiritually I'm just a huge believer in that I feel like me finding myself was when I went into what I call my Wilderness period I kind of just shut everything off that I was doing because I used to be all over having fun partying all these different things things and then God kind of slapped me upside my head and I had to like really pull away from everything and go deeper from within and it felt like a process of breaking me down to build me right back up and that's when I start to see things clearer because what I realized is the world is filled with distractions and it's the distractions why we can't see ourselves for who we really are if we simply shut off the distractions long enough you will learn a lot so even if someone just took a year off don't worry you know limit the TV you're watching limit the music you're listening to limit all the internet stuff just really go deeper within yourself spend more time alone spend more time you know thinking and processing you will learn a lot because again a lot of it is it isn't a problem of we don't know ourselves we are not aware and we're not willing to accept and once we allow ourselves to do those two things become aware and then accept it we become free yeah I I mean I agree with you I think that I've always been a big proponent of solitude to understand who you are because as soon as you have another person you now have another person's opinions you have to filter yes as soon as you have another person in front of you you have another person's judgments to filter and so now you can't even say what you truly think about something because you're constantly thinking what does that person think about me and my beliefs and so understanding your beliefs in solitude allows you to be really clear about what your values and beliefs are and and that's what it's there for I think when people get into if we switch to compatibility again the idea we talked about the difference between connection and chemistry but compatibility is really interesting because a lot of people believe that relationships should be hard and they require hard work and a lot of people believe relationships should be easy and everything should just flow where have you kind of discovered your lens on that Spectrum so okay there's a there's a couple ways to look at it I think that most relationships and I'll even be more specific most relations that involve connection and true love are typically hard not because relationships have to be hard but because most people have been hurt by something in their life are holding on to past traumas haven't resolved it once they meet this individual that they feel so strongly about it is scary this is where things get difficult it's the difficultness in how do I handle this how do I manage this you'll have people feel like they're losing themselves but they're not losing themselves their true self is coming out and it's it's the self that's been hiding behind that wall they've been using for quote-unquote protection but I always say the same module to protect you the same as blocking your blessings so now they're being pulled from behind it it's it's makes them feel some kind of way and again people start to mishandle things you also have situations where people are getting bad advice like I'm gonna give one example um there's this uh book called The Game by Neil Strauss I don't know if you ever read that book yeah it was great Neil you know you you answer that world to pick up artistry we learned it and he was great with the women but then once he found that woman that he fell in love with all that stuff doesn't work anymore so you have a lot of men being taught how to handle women in general but they don't understand that's not how you handle the woman you truly love and so now again you have individuals who though they are truly in love with this person they constantly mishandle it with bad Guidance with fear and all these things this is what makes it hard and and I even think that a lot of times the people who are supposed to be together sometimes will have the hardest time getting together but I believe that once we're able to conquer that part of it and actually come together it's not hard yes it takes work I believe we have to be conscious and mindful of how we treat our partners how we show up being willing to listen but I think it's so much easier to do those things with someone you have a connection with and you're truly in love with it's gonna always feel ten times harder when you're in the wrong relationship and I would argue the vast majority of people are in the wrong relationship that's why they're seeing it be so difficult and when you see this whole it's easy typically it's easy because you have two people who are not digging deeper they're they're trying to write out that chemistry we talked about earlier for as long as possible all right so yeah it seems like it's great it's easy no issues but it doesn't really work like that because they're just not facing the reality of the situation so I think we we have to understand that there is going to be some bumps in the road because of all the things that people have been through but once we're able to come together and we know this is our partner this is who we want to share our life with it can get so much better yeah and do you do you think that people have just been given generally the wrong education on how to deal with another person in their life 100 yeah because unfortunately a lot of individuals are giving advice from a bit or hurt place there and and they're trying to disguise it as I'm just looking out for you no you you have inhaled and you cannot properly guide them in a positive and loving Manner and I think that a lot of people you know I always say it's funny how we'll spend a lot of time getting educated for the for the sake of our careers and business but we don't do the same for relationships and yet relationships arguably are even more important than that career business and even if it's not a romantic relationship just relationships in general your ability to coexist with others connect with others is extremely important if you want that business to succeed you have to learn how to establish business relationships there's no way around it so we have to learn how to talk to people listen to people you know what I'm saying and just make make things work when we come together with other individuals so I definitely think that we're just lacking in a lot of education and again too many because there's so many voices on the internet now there's just so much bad advice being given and and the individuals giving it they may be giving like let's say 80 of the advice is accurate but it's that 20 that's completely off that can derail everything and that's the stuff that people are gravitating to and this is causing a lot of problems can you give us some example of some of the like not specific people or anything like that I just mean like could you give example of bad advice and what about it is bad or unhealthy for people to try and put into practice okay so one thing I heard recently was an individual told uh said some of the best advice you can give to men is to not fall in love you know basically just find a woman you want to be with and kind of keep it there the reason why I view that as horrible advice is because you sit down with any man who's lived enough life they will all be able to say there's been at least one time they fail deeply for a woman all right the problem isn't falling deep before a woman the problem is we don't know how to handle it once we get there the problem is because we're not accustomed to handling and processing our emotions a certain kind of way and being this vulnerable we don't understand what's going to be required of us in that moment we also kind of lose sight of because I'm a big believer in masculine and feminine energy and I believe that if she was attracted to you because of that masculine energy that you give off and now you become this emotional wreck because you don't know how to handle all these feelings you have for her well you start to become less attractive to her and it's not that it's not fixable it's fixable but again a lack of understanding and awareness derails the situation so rather than telling men don't fall in love because it's inevitable let's teach them how we walk in love how we make what I call Loving in your masculine how you maintain that energy and still be able to pour into that woman in a way that allows relationship to flourish yeah and how does that work when I think obviously a lot of people in that example that you're giving if if the person is attracted to someone because of their masculine energy but at the same time they want them to be empathetic and compassionate and kind which are generally seen as more feminine energy how does that person balance the two or is that is that not how you're explaining is that no it's about balance so we have to understand we all have masculine and feminine of course within us I'm a Believer in one must be your dominant energy the other is the one you tap into when necessary so as a man you can walk in your masculine and in those moments tap into those things but you can't just stay there all the time all right you can't just become this needy emotional God that's not going to work in the vast majority of cases and so what happens is there's this messaging that's being thrown out there that women don't like good guys I don't believe that's what it is I believe that women become less attracted when you don't know how to exude and walk in your masculine energy it's and and we're hiding behind the label of good guy you can be a good guy and still exude masculine energy and that's the thing and we also think that oh they like bad boys no if you look deeper it's really the masculine energy that that quote-unquote bad boy exudes but what they desire is a mixture of both the same way that we would want a mixture of both we would want a loving sweet woman family woman whatever or and if you're a guy who wants a mask and woman cool but you don't want her to be just that you know you want her to have the ability to tap into that other side when necessary I think we all desire that balance in our partner and I think it's healthy and if we just learn how to maintain it and how to nurture it we would see greater success in relationships yeah what are some of the skills with with mastering that energy that you think we're missing out on and balancing that energy and knowing when to be which and because the reason why it's hard is I think we live in a binary world right like you feel like you have to choose like you're either a bad boy or you're a good girl you are a doer or you're a thinker you're uh winner or you're a loser right like we think like that and some people go okay you need to be masculine or I can be feminine and I I definitely relate to what you were saying like I believe that there is a lot about me that is massively masculine in energy using that language and terminology my drive my ambition how I work my strategic mind and at the same time I consider myself to have a lot of great feminine energy and qualities where it comes to like empowering others and nurturing and the ability to hold deep compassionate space and be empathetic which are all powerful qualities for for everyone right Beyond gender they're powerful qualities and I appreciate and it's taken a long time to know when to be which and it's still and I still make mistakes right there's still sometimes like I should have been more assertive I should have been more affectionate so we live in a world that finds it hard to hold two opposing ideas at the same time yeah we don't know how to do that in any sphere of life let alone within ourselves so what are some of the skills that we can learn in order to nurture both those energies in a healthy way inside of ourselves so I think one it's going to require a lot of if you're already in a relationship it's going to boil down to a lot of transparency and communication you know her if you're that man trying to understand that woman and when you can walk in those two energies her being willing to be honest and open about you know what this was too much over here or I needed some of this over here and in time you're going to become more aware and understanding it's going to be like second nature to you you won't have to overthink it and I think part of it is not overthinking it it's kind of like being ourselves but understanding that we have to learn when this is doing too much and vice versa I also think that in reality for a lot of men especially uh when we're talking about relationships and kind of losing that masculine energy the the underlying issue is fear all right when we become so afraid of losing this woman we lose ourselves and so a lot of men now fall into this very feminine needy space because they're just afraid we have to learn that listen like to me I feel if your partner thinks you're never gonna walk away from them no matter what they do you've lost that's that's a horrible place to be in we have to get to a place where we both understand that as long as we show up the way that we need to show up for each other we have each other's back we will be here but neither of us will tolerate an unhealthy relationship and someone who blatantly does not want to work on making this better I would want my the woman I'm with to feel that way and I need to feel that way once we understand that and you have the confidence of I can walk away if I have to that shifts your energy right there in itself and now you don't find yourself falling into that place where again you start to look a lot more unattractive or for some men they become yes men in their relationships thinking that makes her happy that's turning her off she doesn't want you to be her yes man she wants you to stand up for yourself sometimes give your opinion give your perspective she wants to be able to you know if anything be able to have discussions with you about these things not just you say whatever you want whatever you want whatever you want over time it becomes a problem so I think that once we conquer that fear once we create a space where we can talk about these moments and not feel some kind of way I think sometimes men are not they struggle with taking the criticism from their partner men and women we we all do when we feel when we have actual feelings for someone you know we don't care about you it's not as big of a deal but we're emotionally invested we're more sensitive to it but we have to understand that these criticisms are for the sake of making things better and strengthening this relationship so once we can get to that place it's going to be so much easier to grow in it and then I think it's just a matter of understanding that it's this balance isn't just for your relationship so look at it like from a sports perspective if I'm on a basketball team there may be moments where I need to take the lead and recognize all right everyone else is down someone needs to step up this is my moment and then there's other moments where I realize okay let's say we already have a team captain let me show them that I can follow serve do what needs to be done so that the team can win it's just becoming aware of what the moment requires you know and again I think the more in tune we get the more in tune we get with ourselves and the more in tune we get with our partner the easier it becomes to find that balance that's the challenge right the challenge is just how much patience we have with ourselves and others to realize that you walked into an imbalance unbalanced situation and now it's like how much patience how much time are we going to give it to get to that because the challenge is I think we walk into a situation thinking it's perfect whereas we should be walking into a relationship knowing it's imperfect absolutely and we're going to learn and figure it out together and I think that's what sets us up for failure is because we walk into it going it's perfect and deep down we know it isn't but somehow we gloss over it whereas I find when I know we're gonna fight when I know we're gonna argue and I know there's going to be disagreements that sets me up to develop the skills I need in order to navigate those things yes but if I assume like oh we're never gonna fight and I always get that right we always meet someone who goes to I mean a friend who goes to me Jay we never fight I'm like how long have you been together because I don't I don't know anyone who never fights I get that no one has to get to like yeah the heights of fights yeah I did that I did that it doesn't have to be a heated fight but I don't know anyone who doesn't disagree there you go all right right I think that's important for people to understand yeah there's a difference yes you have some individuals out there that'll say arguing is normal it's healthy and to me it's like listen if we're talking about arguing where we're now Crossing disrespectful lines negative lines you know the way that we the tone we take with each other all these things that's not healthy yes it may happen you should be prepared for that but it does let's not normalize it just gonna keep doing this and it's it is what it is but you're right to to be with each other long enough and never have a disagreement that's extremely rare okay extremely rare and I do think that again as you mentioned we have to be ready for those moments we have to understand and going back to how we find that balance especially as men and even for women it's recognizing so for example if my partner is in a very heated moment let's say she's in her masculine right now all right she's getting rough well meeting her with more masculine is probably going to only make things worse yeah this is the time for me to be compassionate go to her hold her calm her down bring her peace in that moment you see because it we need to balance each other out same thing on the flip side if I'm all heated and I'm I'm extra passionate and then my woman now comes with that same energy that's it now where button has this is her moment to say no let me now be the one to soften the moment up bring that Sweetness in there and everybody calms down so it's learning how to feed off of each other and recognize okay they're over here let me bring it back over here and now we can work from that point and we're both good the problem is that we all see compassion and sweetness and kindness in those moments as a weakness we don't want to be that person because we see that as losing we see that as giving in we see that as us losing our power and strength in a relationship if we become the comforter or if we become the carer right like that's that's a perception that is the perception and we have to change that that is the power position so who is more powerful the person that lets the energy dictate them how they're going to react or the person that brings the energy and dictates how they're going to make this situation play out so if I'm coming in to calm it down and being all sweet because I'm trying to bring peace here I'm in the power position I'm not losing anything I'm gonna gain more peace and happiness and Harmony if I succeed in what I'm trying to do so we have to get out of that mindset of this makes us weaker and that is the big key of it that's a big problem that for a lot of women who struggle with their feminine energy that's a big issue where they feel that being feminine is weakness it's what got them taken advantage of and got them hurt but I always say it's not the feminine energy that's the problem it's who you give it to do they respect it did they honor it you know it's the same thing as a man does she respect your masculine if she doesn't then that might just be a sign you're with the wrong person but don't stop being that guy because the woman who's best for you is going to need that in those moments that that's exactly what it is is that when people have been their best selves for the wrong person that person brings out the worst in them yes right like when someone's been their best loving kindness self but someone took advantage of it that person now thinks next time I've got to be aggressive I've got to be you know powerful I've got to be strong in this way and I feel like that's kind of what most people are dealing with we know that is that you're just dealing with a wounded version of someone yes not a healed version of someone but I think people struggle to trust again and again especially when they see the same patterns in the person they're weird and I guess the question is why do we keep making the same mistakes because I feel like a lot of us keep dating the same people yeah and there's a part of us that also just keeps closing off or being more wounded it's almost like if you cut yourself you now walk around with your hand over that you don't want to get cut again and then if you lead it off and it gets cut even deeper now you're even more conscious of that and so I find that people are doing that where they're closing their heart more and more because it's been so misused and abused and I understand that I understand people don't want to be abused and misused but I guess the question is how do people find people that they know respect them so that they can be their best version or be a better version of themselves so you know you can't drive out Darkness with more Darkness you can't expose someone who's gonna hurt you by being someone who's closed off and holding back yourself we have it's kind of what we were just talking about we have to look at being vulnerable loving and open as not just well I'm setting myself to be hurt no it's how you expose people faster if I come with that energy and you cannot respect it match it then I know you don't belong here but if I hold back I give you a free pass to hold back so now we have two individuals who are hiding behind their walls because it's comfortable there but you can't really see what's what do we really have in front of us those walls are blinding you and you can't properly evaluate the situation so one we we got to get to a place of healing from our past so that we're not just walking around with the hand over the cut no you you gotta let the cup breathe you gotta let it heal all right holding on put your hand on there is delaying the process and like you said all that's gonna happen is when you finally take your hand off but you're taking it off with the wrong person and you haven't learned see what I want people to realize is your actions weren't the problem meaning you being loving sweet kind compassionate wasn't the problem it was the person separate those two things that you don't stop doing the good things now granted are there levels to this to where we have to learn again if I'm thinking about a man if you got so deeply emotional to where you kind of lost your your masculine energy and you became very needy okay you can say all right I need to continue to be loving but I know I have to learn how to draw a line I have to learn how not to cross that moment and again you only crossed it because you were unhealthy to begin with you only cross it because you were afraid to begin with once you get to that place where you're healthy and confident you won't find yourself Crossing that line anymore yeah you won't tolerate certain things anymore so we have to heal we have to be confident and we have to let our light shine so that we can expose what's in front of us easier that's a brilliant answer I I love the differentiation between how sharing your light is not the problem the person's the problem because we yeah we start to doubt whether being a good person a loving person is actually what wins in the world yeah and the truth is that it does win but it has to win with someone who can receive it and absolutely hold that space with you and share that space with you and I find that a lot of people keep giving that energy to the wrong person because we feel we can make them better right like there's this feeling of like I can change this person I can make them better I can heal them there's some of us want to fix people yeah and that means we assume the person we're with is broken and I think this is such a subconscious thing like if you're always critiquing if you're always picking at stuff with your partner chances are you don't think they're great like just now you think there's some issues with them when you think that you can fix them and they're broken tell us about that angle where now we're almost we've talked about being the loving and kind person but sometimes we're being the person that thinks we're loving and kind because we want to improve someone but that person doesn't want to improve one big problem is that what's really driving people to pick that individual is that by being the one that can upgrade you improve you I have more value here by having more value I have a false sense of security you have to appreciate me you're less likely to walk away you're less likely to cheat because you're lucky to have me I feel like I'm the prize here but those situations never really work because again you're choosing someone that is not capable of pouring into you the way you need you're basing this off of what you could do for them and that's not sustainable and you're choosing them because again you have more emotional control here what happens to so many people especially women it's something that I call the unhealthy love cycle of women where women in their first love experience outside of any childhood trauma may have experienced they're their most loving they're just out there they go all the way in but that typically happens at a younger age at an age where men are not mature enough to handle those kind of emotions that level of commitment so on and so forth so she gets hurt after she gets hurt her moment is saying to herself I will never let this happen to me again so now the woman starts to consciously or subconsciously choose men who are I don't want to say lower than hurt but essentially a man who does not take her there he's good enough to be with but I'm not that vulnerable with him he can't hurt me like that first love hurt me and so that Dynamic usually leads to picking that person I can fix I can make better who will appreciate and respect me but again it doesn't work out and many times you'll see these same situations the guy will move on to cheat on her not because and I have to say this because some women think yeah he's just being a man no not because he's a man but because you chose a man that you could never be the woman that he needed and he could never be the man that you needed once he kind of either gets what he needs from you to build himself up or the Smoke Clears from him being infatuated with you he starts to realize I'm not getting everything that I desire and now you building him up has brought him more attention from other women so now the the difference between what you're not giving him and what someone else is willing to give him becomes way clearer now the Temptation gets way stronger and he ends up doing something or she ends up cheating as well because he's safe but he doesn't fulfill her he doesn't satisfy her he he doesn't excite her in any kind of way and that's why I always said earlier like the safe choice is almost always the wrong choice but that is a function of people trying to choose these fix or uppers because they think it's going to give them some leverage there it's leverage that's it yeah it's leverage yeah how do you know when it's time to go like how do you know when it's like I feel like this is a common question where it's like how do you know when it's just I've tried everything we've tried together tried our best maybe we went to therapy maybe we got a coach or maybe you know maybe we didn't do those things how do I just know that I feel like I need to go but I'm scared of being alone yeah I'm I'm scared of dealing with the reality that I put in a lot of energy and I feel like you said this earlier but a lot of people stay in something for a lot longer than they should because they'd rather not be alone yes they'd rather not face reality they'd rather not lose two years of their life they'd rather lose two more thinking that this this should stay like how do you know when it's time to go let me first say this yes I think I think Society needs to change their thinking as far as Letting Go doesn't always mean it can't work out later it's just that it cannot work out under these circumstances all right because some people say well I feel like they're the one okay maybe they are but maybe the time is not right and it's letting go that will allow you both to do what needs to be done in your own personal lives that would allow you to come back together and have something way more amazing so that's number one thing to consider but outside of that it's when one if that person is unwilling to put in the work necessary it's time to go there's like so many times I'll I'll have a video go up about communication and someone will comment saying I've tried talking to him and he doesn't want to talk to me and in my head I'm like why are you still with them if he refuses to talk to you you've already tried there's nothing else to do but people will let it Linger on and continue why they can why they consistently complain or unhappy about this specific issue it's not gonna magically get better they're not gonna just change it just because all of a sudden they see oh it needs to change no if they're fighting it now they have no reason to change it and what people have to understand you know especially with this whole trying to fix people up healing and facing your traumas is one of the hardest things for people to do so if they already have you in their life they're essentially getting the incentive or the benefit of relationship without having to do the deeper work it's almost like if I'm at a job and the job says you need to have a master's degree to work here but we're going to hire you anyway and give you time to get that master's degree if getting that degree is super hard to you you're gonna drag that out as long as possible yeah you may never get the degree until they fire you when they fire you and you realize oh my gosh if I don't do this I'll never get this person back I'll never get this opportunity back now they might go and get it because it's very tough to walk down the path of the healing process so if they're not willing to work on it you guys have already discussed it and I think that's a big thing because there's a lot of relationships that end and the couples don't even know what the real issue was so the communication they'll say well we talked about no you guys argued you guys lashed out there wasn't a clear communication as to what the problem was what is expected how do we go about this if you've done that and I believe one of the most effective ways to do that is through a letter because I feel like verbal communication of deep issues and concerns they typically don't go well you know people get distracted they forget what they want to say the other person gets defensive they're not they're listening to rebuttal not to understand but when there's a letter involved it gives you time to get everything out you can you can evaluate your tone leave no stone unturned and now they have an opportunity to process it on their time to really take it in and then you guys can come together and discuss the letter and now it's so much easier to stay on point and get everything covered if we've done that and they're still unwilling or there's still no progress It's Time to Go yeah that's great that's great advice and I for me that's the biggest one it's like you can't make something last if only one person's working on it you can't keep hoping and waiting and wishing and and like you said that ending doesn't mean forever and often I found that two people need to grow individually to be able to grow collectively and we're forcing growing together so hard but we need space to grow and if you can't grow together chances are you need to grow apart in order to see whether you grow together again or grow for someone else and all of those options are okay but we put so much pressure on people to grow together that they grow apart yeah and actually if they chose to grow apart and grow separately they could come back together if they learn the lessons and I think that's a mistake too though sometimes people think I'm gonna go learn this lesson for this person I meet a lot of people they're like okay they broke up with me because I wasn't XYZ now I'm gonna go become XYZ to win them back yeah and I always find I'm just like well no you should go become XYZ if you think you were missing XYZ but not to win them back because you don't know what they're gonna do what's your take on people trying to win people back so I 100 agree with you like if we're trying to learn or grow it needs to be for the benefit of who we are and just whoever we deal with so was almost like if I was a bad Communicator in this relationship I shouldn't learn to better communicate for that person I need to better communicate for whoever I'm going to be with if you can't see it in that light then maybe you're looking at the wrong thing my thing is this I think it all depends on what the details of the situation was what led to the breakup what were you overlooking what was missing are these fixable issues because a lot of people are trying to win back someone where the issues are not resolved so it's like what's the point of going back we're just going to go in the same cycle all over again they're letting this idea of I miss them I don't want to be without them blind them from the fact that you two did not get along well or you two don't want the same things or YouTube just whatever it is maybe there's a lack of sexual satisfaction I don't know why I feel the need to mention that but it happens a lot of times you have to stay focused on what led to the end and can this be corrected if it can cool but as you mentioned listen correcting it does not guarantee you they're coming back and even if they will come back you don't know when they may need so you may have figured yourself out in six months they might need a year and I would argue if you guys are truly meant for each other and at the end of the year you need a year too you're just overlooking some things and you're rushing the process because you want to get back to them yeah it's I've never found a situation where it was truly only one person who had problems and the other person was squeaky clean no no you thought you were but you got some stuff too you needed to correct of course so I think we have to be honest with ourselves and just keep striving to be better and rather than focus on winning them back just become the best you because if you do and there's a true connection there the opportunity will present itself again and you too will be able to make something of it and the struggle is that when people finally make that decision to break up or let go the study showed that the parts of your brain that are activated in a breakup are the same as detoxing from cocaine right like you're literally trying to detox so you can have a craving yeah for someone that's bad for you yeah or also it says that the areas of the brain that are activated in a breakup are the areas that are the same with physical pain so if someone like punching the stomach the reason why we say like my heart feels broken is because it literally feels like something's broken yeah so when you're going through a breakup when you're feeling the craving to be with that person again studies show that eight over eighty percent of people are looking at what their exes are doing on social media right probably through a Finster account or whatever but you have to you have to know what are some of the healthiest tips that you've given to people and the people that you've worked with that have genuinely helped people move through a breaker the first thing is to ask yourself again why was I even there why am I holding on to this individual again I think sometimes we get so blinded by just the experience or our desire to have this person for whatever reason that we Overlook what was really missing or why this could not work anyway what you'll also find is and I'm sure there's probably a study on it where if you if they broke up with you you ever see a situation it happens on TV a lot where the person could be like okay I'm gonna break up with my partner they're planning on it they've been practicing in their head right it took them a couple weeks to muster up the strength they're about to do it and then the partner breaks up with them yeah now it's oh my gosh I gotta get them back yeah so it's like you just forgot this whole time that was your plan yeah it just gave you the past to do it but now because we don't like to be the one being let go of now we're fighting hard to get it back yeah so we have to really not fall into these little traps that happen to us as human beings our brains just playing tricks on us or something where we confuse these emotions for oh my gosh I must really love them or even like you said you go into that detox and because you miss I always tell people no matter how bad the relationship was there's always good moments so if you're trying to break free you can't just let your brain focus on the good moments you have to remind yourself why this doesn't work but if you keep focusing on the good you start to make yourself think oh because I missed this good moment I must miss them and there's this quote that says sometimes you're not missing the person you're missing the feeling so you've got to be able to differentiate those two things so getting back to how we get over these breakups is recognizing why were we really there to begin with you know could this actually work the next thing is you know I'm a huge believer that a lot of times a breakup is a blessing in disguise even if there is a chance that you two can work together or this is the one for you you may have needed this time to re-evaluate and get things in order something is obviously wrong even if you it may be something as deep as because I've seen situations where everything was going amazingly well on the surface and the person broke up with them let's say the woman lets go of the man so to the man that's really confusing but what it was is that that woman she had not healed from her past relationships and this relationship being so good was scaring her and what happens is the the better you are the scarier it becomes for her she's looking for something to be wrong she has to validate her fear somehow wow when she can't find it she'll either sabotage the relationship or she'll run from it So to that man it may seem like this is so unfair which yeah it sucks but if this woman didn't break up with you now you were inevitably gonna face this same ending but at a worse time yeah all right this is still best that is happening now at least if she can go do what she needs to do there's a chance for this to come back around later but it's hard for us to see it in the moment so I think just really we also have to focus on our healing whenever a breakup happens the mistake we make is that we think it's about healing from the breakup no it's healing from everything you've been through you've probably been sleeping under the rug your childhood trauma for years maybe the last two three relationships whatever it is so and and not healing from those things is contributing to your struggle to get past this breakup and contributing to why you even chose this person to begin with I'm a huge believer that if you haven't healed you are 90 likely to choose the wrong person yeah it's just too difficult to pick that person that you truly love and can truly love you and accept that level of vulnerability when you have still not resolved your past traumas and past hurts yeah so to me that's the next big thing is just focus on your healing process because in that process you will also be able to see more clearly if this is really for you or not like walking around unhealed is like walking around with broken glasses you you can't see straight no matter how hard you try but healing will clear up your vision really really fast and now it'd be like oh wait a minute I didn't belong there yeah you know thank God the broke breakup happened you know now I'm in a better place I move forward so to me I think and I would say in addition to those things is just have an accountability partner whether that's friend coach therapist someone that can help keep you in check help remind you what you need to do someone that you know you have to talk to and update what's going on so you feel like okay I don't want to come back so I'm saying I'm doing the same thing over and over again it doesn't guarantee success but it helps it helps move the needle some so I would highly encourage that that one mindset you spoke about that that changes everything and it hit me today I was just thinking if we were just able in a moment to recognize that something painful now was going to be good for us in five years time that would change so many things in our life yes but we're so poor at dealing with current pain yeah even if it means future joy that we just can't accept that I have to go through this like in everything right like knowing that someone breaking up with you just saved you 10 years of a wasted life is so much more than knowing you're gonna have to go through a few months of pain and 10 months of pain maybe it's a bit longer maybe it's two three years but we just have to get our head around that that sometimes the best things that happen to you are protecting more of your life than the pain that they're causing you need the Peace of knowing I did what I needed to do that's it yeah because anytime you feel like well maybe I could have done this but I could have done that leaves the door open for doubt do it well exactly so it's like and that's why I'm such a big believer in you know there's people who say well once they're done they're done they'll just move on and I'm like no no Express Yourself get everything off your chest because you don't need anything to linger and you questioning well what if I did this different no make sure speak your full piece and now you can say all right I did what I had to do it is what it is I move forward and I mean it makes it easier it may not make it a hundred percent you know not an issue whatsoever but it's gonna be easier and also also for me that's why like my relationship with God is so important because that's where I find my peace in dealing with a situation that doesn't work out the way I want to I always tell myself okay if this isn't working out God has something better for me you know if this is happening right now there's a purpose because I know if I followed his guidance throughout this process there's no need for me to question why is this the current outcome there's a reason for this and I've been through these things enough times to see as you mentioned the reward is going to come it may come next week it may come years from now it will come and I'll be able to see how it all connected yeah Stefan it's been incredible talking to you man this has been such a great back-to-back flowing conversation uh we end every on purpose episode with the final five which is like a rapid fire which means every question has to be answered with one word to one sentence maximum okay so here are your final five the first question is what's the best relationship advice you've ever received or heard or given it is to love fully lovefully and be yourself because as I said earlier that's how you will expose quicker who is for you and who isn't for you second question what is the worst relationship advice you've ever heard or received get under someone to get over someone [Laughter] uh question number three uh how would you defin	may come years from now it will come and I'll be able to see how it all connected yeah Stefan it's been incredible talking to you man this has been such a great back-to-back flowing conversation uh we end every on purpose episode with the final five which is like a rapid fire which means every question has to be answered with one word to one sentence maximum okay so here are your final five the first question is what's the best relationship advice you've ever received or heard or given it is to love fully lovefully and be yourself because as I said earlier that's how you will expose quicker who is for you and who isn't for you second question what is the worst relationship advice you've ever heard or received get under someone to get over someone [Laughter] uh question number three uh how would you defin	8	6	4	may come years from now it will come and I'll be able to see how it all connected yeah Stefan it's been incredible talking to you man this has been such a great back-to-back flowing conversation	okay so here are your final five the first question is what's the best relationship advice you've ever received or heard or given it is to love fully lovefully and be yourself because as I said earlier that's how you will expose quicker who is for you and who isn't for you second question what is the worst relationship advice you've ever heard or received get under someone to get over someone	8,4,6	6,2,8	8	4	6	6	2	8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr730VmL-lk	4,054	rr730VmL-lk	2024-06-27 00:00:00	like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano no well Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he showed me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah just understand everybody going there my guy I understand the hate exactly what you're saying yeah bro what's his name I don't it's fine you remember those some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I ain't scared of nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that the dentist yeah dentist got me there what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never [Music] [Music] yo Jimmy you do not look like you want to be here bro like someone forced you to be it's like you have to do that par they're the biggest podcast in Africa you have to be there I never look like I want to be nowhere man you got to part of me but congratulations to yall having the biggest podcast in Africa that that that's very big Africa being one of the biggest continents in the world a lot of people over there shut up man why you so tired bro crazy weekend I've been working all weekend shows different states traveling Planes Trains automobiles you know how I be a little bit too much partying yeah road kill it's tough but what's up how y'all feeling I'm good bro I literally saw um I saw your video uh yesterday for your new single the one you shot in Miami two turn temp yeah yeah how you feel about it bro that [ __ ] is lit man looks like our Vibe bro cuz we've been to Miami myself and and my partner but we never like experienced the Miami night life we were playing in Florida yeah we're DJing in Florida but two South Africans like the diaspora then West Palm Beach as well yeah DJ also yeah like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano what it's a genre it's called a piano no no cuz I'm a piano even you heard like you saw he did the whole Keys thing it has nothing to do with the piano that's where it started but has nothing to do with it these days when when I met charlot man he said the exact same thing he's like oh so you're a podcaster I'm like yeah and then you DJs I'm like no I play I'm a Pian like you're a Pianist man you one talented [ __ ] n it's a genre of music man what kind of genre is that like it's like slowed down house music with a lot of s that African influence that's the only way I can describe it so it's a it's a mix of a marriage house yeah a marriage of house music which originated here at Chicago and stuff and then we slowed it down created a sub genre called guo where guys were sort of rapping but very minimalist raps called guo then the kids were born like in the 2000s late '90s then created a whole meshup of those two genres and it's called Piano cuz a a lot of Americans think it's um afro beats it's not afro beats yeah a lot of the hence I avoided saying afro beats cuz AFR beats is from Nigeria and amap piano is far from afro beat afro beat borrows from am piano now where is amap piano originated from South Africa from the hoods from the Cassis yeah but when I when I was looking at your video bro uh the only thing in my mind was like bro what's a night like out with Jim Jones CU that [ __ ] look lit there [ __ ] everywhere bro um please please describe a night out in Miami with Jim so let's say we going to Miami right now I mean some nice are better than others but been doing it so long it's kind of like the the bare minimum for us to do in Miami just having fun but it still work at the same time like every every I'm I'm not just going out partying for no reason ni like that was we knew what we was kind of getting into we wanted to film a video so we knew we was going to ramp it up a bit take it to the to the highest form going crazy as we could but that actually happened to fall on a big weekend um and one of my dudes was celebrating so everything kind of happened for a reason but yeah Miami could take you for take you for a few a few trips man like okay so so so me and you we get in the car right I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm in Miami I hate you cuz you got a house there you stay there right yeah I got I got I got cribs there so I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm by the strip you know that Miami strip right yeah yeah yeah I mean see that's the thing about Miami when you come to visit Miami that's where people are know at like the strip and things like that I guess stand by Collins and ocean driveing all that people that live there don't really do the strip like that like you just you dig people congregate usually at night time and all the spots that usually go on down there um okay so we got security obviously you got to roll around with security right um yeah I mean that' be the safest thing for me to do so we get out the cut with security when you get to the bouncers are they letting us in cuz it's Jim Jones or are they checking our IDs cuz they've been checking our IDs just to buy beer here bro Che ID everywhere yeah everywhere yeah no I I don't think I produced my ID in since I was a teenager at clubs but yeah you won't need your ID when you with me so we walking in right yeah we going to get in oh do we have a section do we they going to give us a section VIP yeah they going to give us a section we going to get some bottles and let the night ensue got this thing called Power Hour you go to the club maybe like 2:45 to 3:45 in and out no sweat so what's the what's the purpose of that exercise the Power Hour yeah like why would you be in the cloud for an hour why would I be in a club for 4 hours it's Fu I mean I've been part I've been partying since I've been 14 I've been making money to party since I've been 18 I'm kind of burnt out so at this point I try to wait till the club is at the most popping or lest moment which is usually that hour right there and I get to enjoy everything that happened tonight and leave out of there and not be all burnt out what what does your wife say bro cuz you're married man you're surrounded by all these girls like you know I mean I'm going to worry about the women yeah is minimal to the money worry about the money more than anything so so a woman doesn't like give you grief when you come home I yeah you get you get grief all the time if you in a relationship no matter what you do if you had a job on Wall Street you get home you're going to get grief no around it you heard yeah there's women everywhere unless you work in the LGBT Club then you know I mean even there you still going to go home and get like it's no way around it you're going to get you know I mean like yeah so you've never had like been home and you had to explain like yo no man I was just doing music video it's just work like I don't know that good you going to explain yourself in every relationship and things like that I got a good woman at home who understands a job I have and things like that so for the most part but for the most part I'm a very responsible respectable person when when I'm in the streets and when I do have to interact with females and things like that yeah anyway H ladies and gentlemen welcome to another special edition of podcasting chill so CU yeah I am here we're chilling with the [ __ ] Legend Kings of Harlem please make some noise for Jim Jones Jim I gotta say bro I gotta say bro I'm going to be honest with you when I find that your name was GMO geloo gelo I'm like I'm like Jim Jones losing some G points here man what the [ __ ] is that I'm Puerto Rican and a rubian my pops is Puerto Rican the word gelo means William in English is a Spanish Spanish name cuz you know what I was thinking I was thinking that guy who does the show late night you know the short guy who does like the interviews with um this late night comedian man what are the late night shows oh man not uh bad with these oh gosh the late night guy bro uhri or something not Corin O'Brien no not Trevor Noah the other American guy man like uh old new no he's like jimm Kimel Jimmy Kimel jimy he's got that he's got that short guy his name is julo oh I don't I don't I don't got got me messed up I don't even really watch TV like that bro okay I'll be out chasing the money I ain't even got time to do that and if and if I do got some time I'm trying to get a little bit of rest or I'm thinking about money [ __ ] is crucial out here right now you better get to your dollar a lot of [ __ ] about to happen and if you ain't got no coins boy you going to be [ __ ] up you ever been to uh Puerto Rico yeah I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times yeah but business not for the Heritage part of it so like you don't know where like your your your parents were at Familiar of the place where my father's from but I never really got to do the whole go to give with my family understand the roots understand you know I mean like I didn't get to get to that part of it but I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times you find like that's important like to know you it's definitely important I had this um I did an interview not too long ago about um how important the roots are and get to know where my family from know I mean so we'll start to do that pretty soon so so so your dad you know you know your dad right yeah he's passed away oh okay God bless rest in peace what happened to him he passed away yeah like was it um medical thing or yeah natural causes oh damn like when you young or um maybe when I was uh 23 24 oh damn bro SED to hear that man maybe 26 right before my son passed right before my God bless right before my son Bor bro but you like 47 right now I look good for 47y old man no homo you know what I mean thank you very much like what was what's keeping you looking so good is it the yoga yeah a lot of yoga a lot of Pilates I stay in shape um I'm very uh very big on Fitness um work out like five six times a week um it's one of the best ways to stay young and have better chances of living a long life is that why you do it or maybe there's other purpose like you know a lot of people are in gym for their mental health I mean it's very it's very it's very therapeutic I will say that but my main goal is to look good of course but to give me better chances of living forever bro so how you got into rap um I don't know correct me if I'm wrong right but you used to skip church and go to the train station to to rap like no I never skipped Church to go on the train station and rap I skipped Church to go to the train station and go play video games and run the streets and do everything a bad little kid did from the streets of hollow when we was like S8 and n and things like that I don't know if you know about anything about the subway system in New York but that's the pathway system that get you to all five burrows and we definitely was on the subway which maybe we shouldn't have been but we was a little uh loose um for me rapping actually rapping didn't start later on in life to actually uh C and um they I got a deal and things like that and that was the first time me myself really thought about actually raing cuz I'll be honest with you like um dipet I don't really know much about dipet however I know about you guys individually like Cameron old boy like one of my favorite songs uh jul sna had hear that that was Cameron and Jules and jwes he both was on he both old boy and heon yeah why don't you jump on those tracks man those tracks are massive they was already done I was there for the making of both of them incredible tracks yeah and then how did dipit start start like how did you guys start the whole movement um organically kiss him Harem gr up together um talented kids Cam and Mason BL sh was they already was doing music um Everybody gradu graduated high school I didn't get to go to college they went to college they got kicked out they got kicked out they come moved in with me from that that was a uh foundation for them to D into the music you've been in the game for like 20 30 odd years right been in the game for since 1997 how would you describe the different eras of like um hip-hop right especially now cuz um obviously we all know about the Kendrick Lamar song they're not like us but I didn't know how big it was until I landed in in in America and it's like it's like a movement the video yeah it's like huge it's massive bro yeah it's a big record Kendrick did that shout out to Kendrick shout out to my boy Drake but what do you think about like the evolution of hip-hop in all the different areas you've been a part of what do you mean what do I think about it it's a great thing to be a part of something that um you could only dream of everybody doesn't get a chance to be in this game um I've been fortunate enough to be here for so many genres and errors and seen so many people come and go I've watched the smallest artist to the biggest artist who you thow will be here forever and going um I got stories for days I can tell you about um how I feel about it I feel great I feel blessed you know what I mean I feel lucky this [ __ ] don't it's not promised and for me to still be here is definitely a blessing so in the 90s what was the vibe like man like like what in the 90s as far as what in hip-hop yeah it was it was different um 90s was a great era um one of my favorite errors um that was the era we first first came outside um started to get out deal uh very aggressive era uh no social media um cell phones were just being born um everything that you seen you was something that you could grab on to um artists had to go to the towns we couldn't just get on your phone and music you had to go get you couldn't just have access to it so it was a it was it it was a hunt um you had to touch the Tails kiss babies do radio everything like it was just a different ER but who was around like during that time when you who was around like Tupac was did you like meet Tupac Tupac I didn't get to meet Tupac um Tupac passed away what 95 was that yeah right in big in '97 um no I got to see Tupac do a few times in Harlem um that was dope but um not Tupac passed away before we got to get in the record game but I've seen a lot of a lot of artists in my time from a young age to old age we were partying in clubs as teenagers before we even got a record deal and things like that like we were in clubs since high school and [ __ ] like that so any interactions with Big L he was from Harlem right yeah shouts to Big Al Big Al was definitely from Harlem um 139th NFL Big L um I was one of the Cam's uh close friends um actually put cam on a dope record that started to give uh Cam and bloodshed and and her mcgree her was already popping too but guy gave them some notice when it came to R so when you come out like who's who's popping at that time is it git is it mop D it's way before G when we came out I was like Eminem just dropped oh [ __ ] this is Slim Shady not M like Slim Shady I I remember that that was like cam had dropped and Eminem had dropped DMX had dropped Nori had dropped um Big Pun had dropped lud Chris Luda had just started coming out um Nelly Nelly down down baby yeah shouts to coola love um yeah that type of error shouts to shouts to Fat Joe shouts to Buster they was already in it uh Nas was already in it Jay start going crazy that's when he just started taking over with the 1 million 2 million 3 million 4 um yeah very competitive very edgy um lot of the big dogs um had real roots in the streets um especially in the streets of New York so that put that put a real Mystique on everything when it came to the music um all the events with topnotch um it just was a different feel man it was a heavy heavy dope boy era um this was before the drug dealers wanted to be Rappers that's when the rappers wanted to be drug dealers you know what I mean and and that Arrow was was a very dope high impact trenel and Russian it was a was a great error bro I saw an interview you did correct me if I'm wrong I might be paraphrasing but you mentioned a place called the tunnel or something where everybody would be and you guys were [ __ ] [ __ ] in the bathrooms please please describe that manest cuz a place like that couldn't exist right now bro with all this woke [ __ ] I mean yeah and the cancel cult I would say it was probably the greatest Club The Hip hopers have seen and it was during the 90s era it was the Golden Era um in New York they got you had stories about like Studio 54 in that era when everybody used all the biggest of big used to go to Studio 54 well the tunnel was what Studio 54 was to that era to our era and it didn't make so many people and nationalities and genres and just everybody was like a big pumbo all for the sake of the culture you had some of the flyest models to some of the biggest drug dealers biggest gang bangers I mean every former elicit street life you could think of was in the spot along with the biggest artists and rappers and actors and models that you could find into all athletes um it would definitely like that um and was this like per invite or just like anybody could Rock up there nah you couldn't just rock up there for this is '90s entry was like $100 first of all $100 for a club that was the first time we ever heard of it and that was a lot of money back then especially we probably started in '94 going there teenager so $100 was sto a lot of money in New York at the time sneakers wasn't even costing $100 um to get in the club you definitely had to be connected to know somebody or you had to wait on a long line that usually was a block long um they had like an Express line you could pay $100 to get on Express line that'll get you to the door quicker and then you pay your entry fee um streets was blocked off you was a big dog you was able to bring your cars down there I was able to bring like four five of them if I wanted to um yeah the club was just it was different man pull up to the door security they taking people's shoes off they searching your jacket twisting people inside out like they about to go on the Rikers Island I got to I gave security High files I never took my shoes off and not since high school I when we used go in high school we used to get our shoes taken off and things like that make you feel like you going to the cental bookings and [ __ ] like that so what gave you that clout that allowed you to bring four cars in when nobody or you had to be a big dog to bring four cars in when you could just give them a high five instead of removing your shoes and you're young by then like what gives you that CL I was a big dog since a small pup bro J yeah man what gave you those you know credentials at such a young age to suppos all these people cuz Dr Tre was there yeah you putting in four cars not removing shoes I was a good Lord Biden citizen everybody love Jim Jones even even the girls like would you just rock up they say let's go to the bathroom that's it yeah now that well yeah there was a lot of that going on they had a uh the layout was different first of all the club was a block long a whole city block um wow there was like three other four other clubs within the club or spots that look like clubs um the main floor was humongously big the DJ was like a a lifeguard Tower in the middle of the club um you go upstairs they had a VR big V PE upstairs and then go through a door it open up to the bathroom the bathroom was like a unisex Club [ __ ] had a big ass bar in the middle of the bathroom uh bunch of stalls lined up um that [ __ ] was like a hotel inside Lions cocaine everything yeah they was going down a lot of sex was going down there a lot of a lot of drugs was going down in there um yeah the tunnel was definitely uh a landmark to New York City when it comes to the clubs I I definitely um I always think about that club um it did a lot for me in my life um it gave me a lot of imagination when it came to to the culture and the things I was seeing from a young age as to where I want to be and the direction I want to go in yeah we was going there since high school so when you seeing people like Mike Tyson and all these people coming in big cheer on and just having their way as a kid go out got to go to school the next morning you you in school thinking about that [ __ ] like w man this school [ __ ] [ __ ] this school [ __ ] I need some money and I need to go to the tunnel that's all I want to [ __ ] do that's wild man now can you imagine because we in sa right we're looking at all the videos that you guys are pulling out there like we're looking at this lifestyle and then you F Track to 2024 right M and the P didy thing breaks out right I mean i' rather not even to get into that yeah just don't I rather the do I don't you know I mean like it's not it's not my business oh I mean like this you heard God bless it's too much n yeah and it's not me to have an opinion on certain things cuz I ain't perfect I've been through my own [ __ ] in life and I see a lot of people that have even this doing too much just know that I ain't perfect so I choose not to talk on certain [ __ ] that you know what I mean a lot of other people people been talking about I let them keep doing the talk and I got other [ __ ] to work on I'm trying to work on me being a better person yeah I respect I respect that man but were ever part of any gang or like you sounding like the F never hey we don't the F in South Africa man only PS I'm just playing with you yeah I've been affiliated with the bloods in New York City um ENT Tre um yeah so crazy have you ever been to sa like have you ever been to Africa or um I've been to Africa where did you go uh gaban gille damn G to perform there um I went to perform there but uh got some great friends there they actually had ran the country at the time this is before the big yeah yeah overtaking and stuff like that but I had a ball out there I got to go to an island called Pony um that was a dope experience as they took me to the jungles I got to see some of the indigenous people um it was like a a real um life Awakening like and I got to see how also the rich people live out there also like I got to see both sides like that you know what I mean it was it was a great experience I out there for like a week um I haven't been back since but yeah it was dope you never been to South Africa never been to South Africa bro so the reason why I asked that is because like yo bro like American culture has infiltrated South Africa like you can't believe like you know we got people worshiping you guys you know Jim Jones rappers and everything you so we've got rappers who rap just like you and youd say they're like Bloods and Crips but they've never they've never left sa you know cuz that's how influential uh the culture is right but from you when you see or hear that like what do you guys think like do you think is like some [ __ ] like or like leave don't don't follow the gang life you know what I mean oh as far as that is concerned um there's two sides to that this what you do as a gang member that turns it into something that becomes a crime or whatever that end but the Brotherhood part of it is what the most of us joined up for when we coming up in the hood and need that Brotherhood lean on somebody is that type of camaraderie that pretty much stood for and there's a lot of other great attributes that comes with affiliation or you becoming a part of a gang um it gets twisted up because we all come up in these urban communities and our back is against the wall we don't have no opportunities um it's very dormant uh we on top of each other so naturally testosterone testosterone wins in a lot of these situations where these kids find s in bad situations and for that I would tell people to kind of stay away from this type of life um I don't want to oppose my will we all going to experience what we going to experience but I can't tell you the consequences to this type of Lifestyle could be very dear you heard ethal a lot of people don't get to make it where I made it and Escape that lifestyle that could have put me away or could have put me in the dirt I mean so here as a Living testament to tell you that these consequences are terrible the odds on you making it out of that life in a positive manner are very slim I mean but if you are in that life and you taking it as a Brotherhood and try to uplift your brothers I know there's a lot of people around you that are doing a lot of [ __ ] that that that that that's very crazy you know what I mean if you're a part of that and you got the positive minder then you try to uplift your brother and instill some positivity within them because it's very cold out here so I've always been curious bro like so when that when you you you start getting immersed you know or Affiliated in the gang life how does that affect the conversation at home with your parents like your mom your dad and just the domestic you know Dynamics I a't grow my parents I was a grown man since I was like 15 I made my own money since I was like 16 my grandmother left me in high school man I was raising my Sisters by myself in the projects I hustle every I ever got in my life that's why music saved my life I was so grateful to be able to be next to cam and him getting a deal at such a very young age to be able to still be making money off that [ __ ] right now you were U anr for Warner uh music group yeah I was the director of anr for Warner Music Group um years ago uh shouts to Kevin L shouts to Leo Cohen for giving me the opportunity um great opportunity uh I excelled at it extremely very young with a lot of power but didn't understand what I had at hand um didn't have too many people in my corner that were telling me the things that I should have been doing with that type of position as opposed to some type of weird way be hating you know I mean so that's what happened but as you get older you learn you learn and you move on who did you discover while you were in that position uh I would tell you a story I I know I've helped try s uh they come to tra songs that you know today he's always in he's always in we know why no n but he was a young kid at the time and uh they were actually going to cut him from the label we had a big uh um it's like uh one of them uh some events they be doing not the talent shows the uh well was something like that all the artists had to come perform and then they pretty much didn't know that they was on a Cho and block at the time when I was an executive and and he was one of the artists that they were going to cut and I remember Kevin L specifically ask me yo what we should do with him I'm about to cut him I don't know what to do with him and when I heard him uh singing and I saw him perform I was like this is this is one artist you should keep and did that and now we all tra songs on so many dope ass records is it true you could have signed Drake yeah I had a chance to sign uh I had a chance to do business with Drake um through Allan grum blat um when I was doing business at cotch um it was a different era I didn't understand what Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he show me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah understand everybody going at my guy I understand the hate man the hate is so phenomenal it's just how this game go man this game is so tricky man these [ __ ] just like females in this game we ain't going to get into that man there's a lot of uh but wait wait wait so so with Drake like are you are you seeing him perform like try songs or like you just heard of the guy just a conversation Allan called me about signing a kid let me hear some of his music um and I was like the kid know how to rap but I don't know what to do with him his image is crazy and him couple years later heard him on a Wheezy mixtape going crazy I was like wow this kid is about to go wham inside of this business and he sure did and you're know trying to call Weezy like yo man I gotta get that kid or something n he was already signed a young money and jcole did you miss on jcole as well I could have signed J Cole bro jcole was in the studio with me every day and at that point jcole I he's he remind me of a knockoff Drake and not to say it like that but that's who he sounded like he came to my studio every day rapping to these Drake beats rapping like Drake Cadence like Drake he could rap his ass off yeah you heard yeah but it was already a drake out there he had the Caesar it was different like two lightskinn [ __ ] might not K when raing the same but you never know what you got in front of you man you dig and those are lessons I I've took with me to moving forward when I see artists and and I hate artists I always give them more than just hearing just just I got to I got to I gotta try to capture the whole picture I make sure I just don't you mean so I don't miss nothing else because I've missed a few people and I've helped a few people um gain a lot of success in in my time in this industry whether it been by me having a meeting with them or me having influence on them or you know I mean so you know and there's never like any animosity like Jake Cole or Drake never came up to be like yo you could have signed me look at me now bro I mean me and Drake is cool as [ __ ] um I see J Cole I don't think he I mean I don't think that's no he some [ __ ] he might want to keep to himself not to be like that sh the co he not that type of artist he's not a you I mean yeah you did I look I look at as we can see I want to mention an artist who like I'm really fond of like I think this guy's [ __ ] amazing musically talented everything that he touched like turned to Gold who's that uh kid k bro K Cy yeah yeah did you help him with his career yeah I birth K Cy wow J me how so bro bir them nobody would have know who K Cy was at all if I a jump on this remix record but it wasn't even remix he wasn't even a nobody like I tell a story all the time I had a inter used to work for me said he got some dudes that do videos they would like to do a video for me told them come let me see they work they show me their videos the first video they showed me was of the kid Cy record he's on the top of a roof some simple video the record sound more wavy than the opportunity for them to do a video I'm like well if you'll get me the beat to this record I Remix this record and then y'all can shoot the video to that record wow and that's what they did and then um the radio station ripped the record off of YouTube and start playing it at Hot 97 and K Cy was born bro why do you think especially about kid Cy cuz from him when I listen to music right it wasn't really no no other kid Cy record besides the one that I was on yeah man he's not in they don't play his records where I be at at all not to be funny wow bro and we listen to him like all that day and night you know remember only record I know yeah it's the only record I know unless it's like a pop record that everybody know and I and I'm even not paying attention to it but he don't his records don't get played nowhere that i' be at not like that unless I go into a different farm and that's the type of music they playing in one of these funny clubs that play fist pump music and pop music he's not into like you dig like they don't play his music in the clubs I'll be at maybe in Vegas and [ __ ] like that but that's not like they not pumping this [ __ ] in live they not pumping this [ __ ] in Atlanta they not pumping this [ __ ] down the Stafford room or you know what I mean like they I'm not saying nothing like that but I don't hear it in the strip clubs I don't hear like you know what I mean so but he's a very successful person with some of the greats like Kanye to put him in a position to win and [ __ ] like that and I think he's way more better as an actor than he is a musician and that's just my POS that's just my opinion he did I seen him in the movie uh about the race car [ __ ] where he was F the playe like he got a lot of Charisma and [ __ ] like that on on camera for what I could see and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean bro I mean for you as Jim Jones to to see these kids you're introduced to them by an intern and then to hop onto that song it's something selfless you know to just give these unknown kids an opportunity of sharing a song with you where do you think that selflessness comes from how was that unknown kid I'm still an unknown kid anytime I get an opportunity that's an opportunity I should be able to give to somebody else bro the fact that you could even come to our podcast shout out man yeah man you don't even know us exactly what you're saying yeah know us what's his name I don't it's fine you know remember those kids who who did the video for him anyway you know remember I remember like that kids that got the biggest African podcast I'm definitely going to know like them is my guys right family right there appreciate I really mean that that sincerely and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean I I bump in too many people in my life and been across too many people in my journey to actually remember everybody's name but the face and the cause and I mean BR I want to understand right the first time you came up with the concept For Love and Hip Hop where were you what was happening that um that was something like uh me and Christy she had opportunity to do uh her own reality show um and actually fell through and that kind of she was kind of she wanted to do that I can see she was eager about doing that when it fell through kind you know I mean [ __ ] with her mood and [ __ ] like that so so so so so the initial concept what was it was just Chrissy just showing like what's life the initial concept was about she had her own thing going on about a group of women that was supposed to do a reality show had nothing to do with me yeah that [ __ ] fell through she lost that opportunity to end up not going people have been begging me to do reality TV for past couple years at the time and I and you reality TV gold man I refused to do it yeah and then when that happened I was like all right I got I'll do this for you and we'll make it about you and females that have to that are involved with artist such as myself and show what the relationship side is when you're dealing with a high-profile artist and you know what I mean how so that's how that started bro and that thing became a monster super super monster like it's still big till this day bro 100% so do you have like uh ownership in that we we were link a all that you know at that time when maybe the second season we just in a position where we refuse to compromise our dignity for anyone or any dollar and sometimes it be like that you know what I mean um but ain't no stress off my back T my hat to him you no but but but we got to talk about that because you see like this podcast um it's blackowned right it's just me and a couple of other people that are involved in the podcast right and we're always striving for ownership so a lot of um Brands and investors have come to try to buy the podcast and we say know cuz like we believe in ownership and telling the story the way we want to tell it right so what went wrong in that because as a hustler I believe like that's your also end goal MH um it wasn't something that I was just a lot of different layers and [ __ ] like that and I was too worried about doing other things and we had the opportunity to gain all ownership 50% of the whole TV show and all that but it still wasn't worth GE bro that's insane you just let go like that yeah bro it's your brain child bro there is no Love and& Hip Hop without you bro I still got a brain you heard yeah those are for people that don't have a brain that lack creativity people that steal things from you lack what you don't have remember that yeah whether it's money whether it's creativity whatever it is they lack what you don't have ultimately they steal from you you heard I mean we didn't even know C beef if it wasn't for Love and& Hip Hop right yeah yeah yeah definitely yeah bro you gave birth to so many many people man like VI their careers that's the god in me that's why I'm always going to be good yeah she man so any other shows that you're working on like in the pipeline that you want to do I was telling you I working on um a late night show a late night um a late night variety show live in studio audience hopefully we'll be filming in about 40 to 60 days um beautiful concept I do I do believe people going enjoy the show um like I was saying I can't do um a podcast is too personal for me and [ __ ] like that and me watching these podcasts um dealing with these artists me myself don't have the temperament for it you know what I mean um I [ __ ] I T my hat to y'all to have to deal with artists such as myself cuz you never know what type of mood they going to come in you know what I me some of these artists have a air to them where they feel like they better than most and they would never sit and have tea with the with the maintenance guy you heard me myself me going to maintenance guy going to smoke blunts before I get on stage [Music] I live my life and and and currently uh before we let you go man what do you think about the state of hip-hop cuz like statistically numbers wise it's not looking good man e beats has played all over New York now there's now the pianos this is this is what they want you to do this is how to get us to go against each other it's all under the same culture umbrella it's afro music ref I'm a piano I'm a piano explain that what do you mean by that bro yeah R&B what do you mean by that ultimately it's all from under the same origin and creativity of the same person from the same colors is all our thing n but let's be honest Jimmy hip-hop hasn't involved bro when I was listening to Eminem what do you want mean what do you mean hip-hop hasn't evolved you guys are still rapping about the same stuff it don't you you missing the point of what hip-hop is yeah hip-hop has evolved to a point that you can be the music genres that you're told them about can be noticed you think that if there was a hip hop that I'm a piano would be noticed or afro Beach would be noticed think about that and not to take nothing away from y because you always have culture and yes that music might be big within the continent of Africa yeah right but to cross over to American Fame and commercialism you don't think that the hip-hop culture played a big part in that that's that that's a different argument now you want to have a different argument I'm telling you the semantics of where we going with this you dig like you talking about uh the the hip hop music is damn percentage that's how they want us to think when it's really not cuz we all uplifting each other you heard you think that the country music that's going on in the black people winning is not because of the hip-hop culture no no no I think no one is disputing that however so then when you say hip-hop numbers are down and damn for who no I'm talking about I know what you're talking about but damn for who tell me who it's down for because I'm still making the money I make yeah I do believe there's still a lot of artist that's making a shitload of money that they make I don't think it went down for them yeah you know what I mean but I understand what you're talking about they say the numbers and then rock and roll genre might be up like I don't really you heard like that's I'm into this business you heard and it's always up for us you heard cuz this is a business we make money out of nothing it's never a downside to this okay and and that's why I'm saying I think we're having two different conversations here cuz the conversation I'm having is I'm having I'm having right is that in as much as he's saying yeah the numbers are down because they orchestrated and whatever I get that right but also that's why I asked do you think Hip-hop has evolved cuz I grew up on hip-hop right and the same things um quote unquote you guys were rapping about in the '90s how can hipop how can hip hop evolved in the same thing that Africa been Africa been going on since the '90s aren't y going still going through the same thing we are huh we are so how could the music evolve when the music ref the time ah okay get you real stories what you want us to rap about [ __ ] that that we don't have ah we talk about [ __ ] we dream about all the time that's the good The Good Life the colorin the Ros we talk about but the truth is how the music going to change when our position hasn't changed when we still going through the same [ __ ] we've been going through okay and y'all being from Africa should know that more than we know that yeah that's facts that's fact go about that own Cod yeah yeah yeah yeah you know are bro that's a valid fact but how do you feel man like you've come from an era where you guys when what you you said in your raps I mean evolved as far as dition as far as what we rap about cuz we still stuck in the same place but as a business it has evolved to one of big time yeah yeah biggest big time money making machines you can attach yourself to this made some of the richest individuals whether you're the rapper the lawyer the executive like that's true you know what I mean the supply chain but then I think that's why you know when you get the likes of a wz coming out and Kendrick Lamar they stand out like a sore thumb because like they are rapping about but that's what music is about to stand out for those who that want to look like everybody they don't get nowhere why you think Dip set was so successful sucessful yeah because we stood out on purpose we don't want to look like or H or sound like no one else m we want yall to above all see us when we walk in the building and hear us when we get on that [ __ ] mic you heard why would you guys the diplomats I never like where did that come from the diplomats the name the diplomats yeah we diplomats oh ah okay that sounded cool no we diplomats we are Harlem diplomats and we take it as that you heard we go to the Embassy when we land in countries you heard all right okay okay okay I I sort of get that bro so in the business and how you still making money right now like from music just like how is it royalties damn you asking a lot of questions bro no I want to know bro I'm so I've got so many questions I want to ask you bro I'll tell you this music is supposed to be used so you can make as much ancillary dollars as you can because the music ain't promised everybody 15 minutes of fame ranges from a small 15 minutes of fame to a run like we having within that minute the 15 minutes the fame you better do a lot of other things to secure your bag because music is not going to be thing you be able to get paid off forever unless you're the DRS and the J that's not even 1% that's you know what I mean so you think about that so you better have some hustle you better learn how to you better have some business sense you better put your credit in order you better do a few things to secure you if you are artist [ __ ] leverage powerful penda yeah man how do you feel man when these kids these days wrap up about you know trying to act tough and rap about stuff they never done like you guys red about stuff you lived I mean I do believe a lot of these kids are going through a lot of [ __ ] that we went through and then a lot of the kids are talking about [ __ ] that they see but most of the kids are all growing up in the same community that all of that [ __ ] is going on so who tells them they don't have the right to talk about [ __ ] that they're not doing when that's still [ __ ] that they're seeing oh sure Ah that's powerful but the problem I have a problem when they rapping like they did it but they just R from somebody else's Vantage Point understand that but most of these artists that you've seen in the game some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I pretty firm in his in in his music that I'm a believer that he did some of that [ __ ] he can talk about just me I don't know you possibilities are possibilities but some things just seem correct you know mean I can't tell you for sure cuz it is music you know what I mean but some things seem correct [ __ ] man bro you got to come out to man you got to you know we haven't had a proper uh hip-hop concert in sa like since 50 N since you are come on back to the city does concerts man ah those are for old people empd the bigest artist in South Africa right now Hip-Hop Hip-Hop uh there's a guy called nastyc but nesty came here he doesn't know know you f poopa who's that nah F poopa Nigerian West African artist massive he used to pop not now for real still massive bigger than like ber boyo still it's different type of music oh stadiums is 50 60,000 people like what is this following this gu what's his name f poop F poop I don't know him bro he's from Nigeria yeah yeah yeah yeah Nigerian Prett pretty big yeah humongous bro how big was was 50 Cent bro like during his Reign man like how big was 50 Cent [ __ ] retardedly big it wasn't nothing bigger than him was Drake before Drake was dring he was oh [ __ ] he did it like it was like 50 was on a run that he never even touched the club bro like [ __ ] never seen him in the club he only did Arenas I never knew too many artist that just did that you dig like the [ __ ] was super massive every [ __ ] Rec he came out with was was going platinum and I'm just telling you the facts you heard and I always got to speak factual no matter how I feel about a person the [ __ ] was on top Super on top it was no way to knock him off his d i remember Jay-Z dropped the diss track on you did you guys resolve that beef I think you were not happy with him as the president of De jam oh man um we never really had a beef um we had some feuds back and forth through the situations that were going on over other people um and me being who I am I had to hold my ground um but to know that he actually talked about me in multiple of his records mean that I was pretty big in his eyes you dig true true cuz I didn't hear him talk about too many people in his career and if he did talk you talk about you on the record that meant something you know what I mean and I was then so for me that I I I took that like what it was like you dig like yeah J doesn't respond to take the time out to say my name you heard if I'm if I'm not that big of a deal to you you would never ever a am I am I right talk about a person you heard true it's it's a form of respect and ackowledge 100% am I right in saying a lot of [ __ ] are scared of Jay-Z bro cuz we interviewed Dam Ian I don't I don't know I'm not a lot of [ __ ] you heard I'm a man so I couldn't I I couldn't tell you that you heard I ain't scared to nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that that that dentist yeah the dentist got me there you heard you can walk in you could walk we about to fight right now you a dentist walk in you got it you got it like you got it bow down you got it I don't want no smoke let me get out of here M fact word Jimmy before you go man uh what beefs did you have so you had something beef with Jay-Z right no man I just told you we had some feuds stemming from that's beef bro stemming from other things that going on um my problem like it was all part of Us coming up in the game and things were happening we were signing a Rockefeller cam was sign a Rockefeller actually then we got opportunity to Diplomat records um the split between uh Jay and Dame came um artist took sides some took the J side some took the the Dame side which side were you on we was on the Dame side OB Dash yeah Dame Dash that's do you think Dame Dash is misunderstood bro huh you think Dame Dash is misunderstood um too smart for his own good I get that yeah if you had the opportunity again you sometimes being the smartest person in the room could be held against you especially when you want everybody to know that you're the smartest person in the room yeah yeah yeah and I get given a second chance would you still side with Dam never you wouldn't never whoa I never signed a d at all that was no no no like sided with him took his side oh give a second chance I wouldn't have sided with none of them I would we would haveed our [ __ ] business but you learned that with age yeah you heard we had no business butting into that because it wasn't a street beef and this wasn't some [ __ ] that had to do with us ultimately we were holding our [ __ ] down and [ __ ] like that but business-wise if we would if we knew what we knew now we would let them get into that they self y'all can handle that because we got records to put out and music to make and we got our own record label to run you dig and this my hinder what we got going on by us taking sides and that's why I tell people now even when people seeing all the Diplomat [ __ ] like y bro don't don't get in to taking sides with me and my bro because you never know how that might end up and if it end up to a point where we do figure out our situation then I'm looking at you funny now me and you got forever you heard you dig and there are plenty of people that did that and plenty people that didn't and plenty people that showed the same amount of love that he showed to me that it showed to cam when we were going through our imaginary situations and [ __ ] like that cuz it's all imaginary when you know you can figure figure it out now it's a saying that like don't just be in people's business when especially when they've beef and take sides cuz and I I had to learn that a lot I had took me a long time to learn that because of how we come up in the Cod that they supposedly treat us in teach us in the street and [ __ ] like that but sometimes that's not the smallest thing that we can do and then uh push a t did you ever beef with him nah that was some [ __ ] that we was on record um he did some [ __ ] I did some [ __ ] you dig that was it I never followed that I didn't even know did you know there's a pusher T me I ain't got no just know I don't know I know you're from I know you're from Africa and [ __ ] like that but people don't play with me yeah for real and I don't I don't play with people this ain't no playground you heard this is the street it's two ways don't get caught up in a yellow line it's going to be hard to cross bro yeah you heard no I don't trust me I'm from Africa but I saw what happened at the airport so that [ __ ] escalated yeah [ __ ] that was self-defense man God yo bro it looked like that guy was just messing with you bro I wish that could have never happened cuz I was trying to avoid that by all cause but [ __ ] happened sometime man you dig and definitely not not going to allow anybody do anything to me at all bro when I saw that video right like I don't know I just met you today right but I saw when you lifted that guy from the escalator threw him down he literally just went on survival mode bro like it's like there was a button that you switched on and you just like I don't [ __ ] care but yeah yeah no I mean no that's a button that I choose not to push you heard yeah exactly like you can go there quickly I choose to show restraint for a lot of reasons in my life and sometimes it's hard to you dig but where I'm at in life right now I choose positivity or all the other things that come out my way because I know how it is to be negative I was once that negative person that was very aggressive and ready to do something to to you over the minimal alistic of things and [ __ ] like that so I'm blessed to be here to try to be able to show restraint and so so the guy so the guy at the airport you guys on the same plane yeah we on the same plane so you don't have a private jet no I don't have a private jet I'm not a rich man come on Jimmy you made so much money over the years but anyway so you're in the plane what's he what's this guy saying to you like um I don't know man just [ __ ] happens I know just the started from the plane just know that what you see happen on so it starts on the plane you restrain yourself you're like all right cool my dog say whatever you want to say yeah when he gets to the airport I mean the escalator that's when I think he starts hitting you or something right yeah something like that he tried to do something like that and that's what we see man but like I said this is not something that I want to glorify it's not you think he knows who you are um if if he didn't he know now no I'm I'm sorry see sorry cuz some people just provoke I believe he was he was trolling a little bit and things like that which is cool you I mean I'm if if you in New York not time 10 you do know who I am so you know I believe it was a bit of that but God bless man hopefully that they all right hopefully the old man um cool you dig like are you spiritual cuz you mentioned God a lot man yeah I'm very spiritual very spiritual very spiritual I've been my whole family is spiritual and what does that mean in an American sense cuz um us as African for me it means a lot of different things um I was told what the church was as a young age as they drag you to church every Sunday your grandmother your moms and your family and things like that and you really don't understand what that is from that young but as you get older and you go through certain things and you make it through certain things you understand that there is a God and everybody has a relationship with their God different and sometimes going to church doesn't mean that you love your God any less or he loves you any less you dig and you say spiritual I'm very spiritual I say my prayers as much as I can sometime two three four times in a day you dig man doesn't take away from what I do and who I am because I'm still in the line for everything else everybody is in but I know every day that I'm able to wake up and every day I'm able to make a dollar and every day I'm able to keep living the life that I am I should be thankful you heard cuz that's not just me that's a higher vibration that's definitely a God you dig and I'm well aware that I've escaped many things in life that Lord knows I should not be here but then again I should be here cuz he put here for a reason he gives his toughest battles to his strongest people what the Bible say you heard and I've made it through some very tough battles which are minimal to some of the people that I had next to me in their battles you know what I mean so it's like we all got to figure it out Jim Jones thank you so much man and thanks to God for bringing you here man definitely I appreciate for making time for us bro thank you man we appreciate you tired when you got you I appreciate the fact that you could even make it man got any last question yeah man bro you said you've gone through some tough battles and you mentioned how you lost your dad at like 26 but also that you you pretty much raised yourself from the age of 15 you know from that relationship or lack of it like has it affected how you father your children 100% this made me the best father I could be but me my relationship with my father was always a great one even though he wasn't there because every day he wasn't I love them even more I wasn't one of them kids that was bitter you dig I understand that everybody went through something and at that age what he was going through there was a lot of drug addiction and I knew that from a very young age I understood what drugs was and how they were tearing up my family I never held that against my father and I was just blessed able to get back with him before he passed away so he could see that his son was making something out of himself at that time I was already signed to her uh we think we just got the Rockefeller deal so it was a very big deal for me to be able to get back with my father to show him that me somebody that you should be proud of and I know him looking down right now got be like damn I did that so you know and that's how I feel but then in turn TR here my son I don't you know I mean like I just you know mean I pride myself on making sure that I I turned my son into somebody that was way better than I could ever be you oh man yeah that's my guy shout out to you man is your son still wearing Crocs to you br he's a Croc guy you heard yeah Crocs for Life bro Crocs for Life jumping out the beam with a fresh paer Crocs on I don't want to stand him Jimmy before you go your top five rappers all time my top five rappers of all you got to give us your top five bro yeah Tupac definitely Jay-Z Drake um Drake he not like us by default of course um rock cam no Eminem No No whoa not even big you from NY and not to take nothing away from him he's extremely nice it's retardedly nice when it comes to rap but I listen to artists that kind of you know I mean do something for the life that I live and kind of what I've been through and most of these artist or artist that I'm talking about people that you know what I mean like [ __ ] better stop hating on my boy Drake all of a sudden all this Drake land I get it I get it you ain't like us let's not do that let's not forget the 15 years he been spanking [ __ ] around this [ __ ] all all all over this [ __ ] all the alley he been giving most of these artists that are now seeming to be turning on them let's you know let's not some of them gave him their best hits let's not forget the big picture here and [ __ ] like but what the hip-hop culture and this game is built on competition so I yeah but what is he with it you heard you better put your best foot forward but what has Drake given back to the culture oh that you so love here we go um what is he giving back to the culture I seen him take a lot of people on tour and turn them even richer than they already was I I seen him give a lot of people hits that they would have never had if he wouldn't have got on a record things for the culture that wouldn't have happened in turn records that we would have never knew about him to record that the culture love and things like that I mean he's not from here Canada from the hood I don't believe he owes America too much but the monster that give back to where he's from maybe we should ask about what has he done in Canada giving back to his community as opposed to what he giving back to the culture of the United States when this is not where he's from and I think that's the Divide right there now if we talk about what he's done in Canada and if it's not up to par then maybe we can talk about oh you dig but that's I think that's for the people of Canada you dig like yeah cuz but it's the people of America in the hood who made him of course you heard about but that he didn't grw up in America he didn't grew up here you heard so if you was an artist from Africa yeah like boy yeah do you think bnab boy has responsibility what do Niger of United stes n I'm taking it back home bro super duper big yes but that's what people then will call a culture vulture cuz you come into a space you know do what the people of that space do benefit from them is is is you understand what we doing like it's bro it's not because he's not take so he's not taking benab boy is Nigerian it's a Nigerian culture that is now popular in America so Drake took an American culture and enriched himself but what he's saying is that he doesn't owe anything to America cuz he's not from yet right okay right yeah I mean [ __ ] he's got no obligation Fair argument he got no obligation Fair argument yeah like he lived if he lived like I don't I don't that's how I see it you heard like that's how I see it you dig but all these [ __ ] we talking about are filthy filthy filthy rich off the opinions of men you heard what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never but what I'm just trying to tell you is how this game is played yeah you heard yeah geez man the more we talk the more they get paid the loser still gets paid too if there is a loser I don't think there's a loser when they all getting Millions off of this [ __ ] I don't think I mean like and I understand end all be all in the whole circle of it but I'm I've been in this [ __ ] for so long I'm miss you can see the politics of really get you to understand of what's really going on and [ __ ] like that this [ __ ] don't pay me a dollar to talk about it yeah hey man how tight you with Joe Bon he calls us those African guys with numbers oh yeah yeah yeah Jo this my guy buts what's up man he cool yeah he's an instigator definely know how to get under people's skin yeah I've known Joan for so long [ __ ] like that um I'm proud of him put himself in his position a whole new Lane to make a shitload of money um where it stem from the culture this what I'm talking about all the ancillary things that you need to get going on if are a artist of some type of success you got to use that to get where you want look at Joe used his startom and rap no matter what it was to able to finesse a whole new Lane of podcasting that true he's pretty big in damn near one of the forefathers of it from our culture right y'all started before him or after him we started after him but now we have more numbers than him hey doesn't matter no numbers do matter I mean no J and get num I'm cool with that but you won't be never be the considered the forefather of this whole no no no no no no no you dig 100% yeah it's Jo Joan numbers is cool I'm cool with that you get paid and I know what's a race you might be number one you heard yeah yeah but you still never be the forefather always going to have that under him like I've created this Lane for your how I feel about Ling hip hop yeah of course I got that under my belt that's mine y can never say that was yours at all yeah okay how much money you made off of it and [ __ ] like that at the end of the day you it's mine you heard Still My still mine so we always ask anybody any guest that we get on the show in closing what do you want to be remembered as man when it's all said and done I want I want to be remembered I want I want them to know that I gave more than I took because I was able to take a lot in my time amen just like that sh hey man I wish you put me on love and& hip-hop bro they got the African love of Hip Hop they got Jamaican love of Hip Hop they got they got any type of Love of Hip Hop we need the South African love of Hip Hop thanks Jim man shout out thank you bro I appreciate you man thank you we appreciate podcast and chill we out of here man boom peace welcome to Black excellenc do not fear for if you do just sip on some Grand and if you still do ask ourselves what would M [Music] do when they ask you do not fear for if you do just say an TV this is the the medicine of censorship this is the pill which one is that one podcast and chill	like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano no well Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he showed me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah just understand everybody going there my guy I understand the hate exactly what you're saying yeah bro what's his name I don't it's fine you remember those some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I ain't scared of nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that the dentist yeah dentist got me there what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never [Music] [Music] yo Jimmy you do not look like you want to be here bro like someone forced you to be it's like you have to do that par they're the biggest podcast in Africa you have to be there I never look like I want to be nowhere man you got to part of me but congratulations to yall having the biggest podcast in Africa that that that's very big	6	4	8	like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano no well Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he showed me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah just understand everybody going there my guy I understand the hate exactly what you're saying yeah bro what's his name I don't it's fine you remember those some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I ain't scared of nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that the dentist yeah dentist got me there what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never	yo Jimmy you do not look like you want to be here bro like someone forced you to be it's like you have to do that par they're the biggest podcast in Africa you have to be there I never look like I want to be nowhere man you got to part of me but congratulations to yall having the biggest podcast in Africa that that that's very big	3,4,5	5,6,8	3	4	5	5	6	8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr730VmL-lk	4,054	rr730VmL-lk	2024-06-27 00:00:00	like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano no well Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he showed me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah just understand everybody going there my guy I understand the hate exactly what you're saying yeah bro what's his name I don't it's fine you remember those some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I ain't scared of nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that the dentist yeah dentist got me there what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never [Music] [Music] yo Jimmy you do not look like you want to be here bro like someone forced you to be it's like you have to do that par they're the biggest podcast in Africa you have to be there I never look like I want to be nowhere man you got to part of me but congratulations to yall having the biggest podcast in Africa that that that's very big Africa being one of the biggest continents in the world a lot of people over there shut up man why you so tired bro crazy weekend I've been working all weekend shows different states traveling Planes Trains automobiles you know how I be a little bit too much partying yeah road kill it's tough but what's up how y'all feeling I'm good bro I literally saw um I saw your video uh yesterday for your new single the one you shot in Miami two turn temp yeah yeah how you feel about it bro that [ __ ] is lit man looks like our Vibe bro cuz we've been to Miami myself and and my partner but we never like experienced the Miami night life we were playing in Florida yeah we're DJing in Florida but two South Africans like the diaspora then West Palm Beach as well yeah DJ also yeah like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano what it's a genre it's called a piano no no cuz I'm a piano even you heard like you saw he did the whole Keys thing it has nothing to do with the piano that's where it started but has nothing to do with it these days when when I met charlot man he said the exact same thing he's like oh so you're a podcaster I'm like yeah and then you DJs I'm like no I play I'm a Pian like you're a Pianist man you one talented [ __ ] n it's a genre of music man what kind of genre is that like it's like slowed down house music with a lot of s that African influence that's the only way I can describe it so it's a it's a mix of a marriage house yeah a marriage of house music which originated here at Chicago and stuff and then we slowed it down created a sub genre called guo where guys were sort of rapping but very minimalist raps called guo then the kids were born like in the 2000s late '90s then created a whole meshup of those two genres and it's called Piano cuz a a lot of Americans think it's um afro beats it's not afro beats yeah a lot of the hence I avoided saying afro beats cuz AFR beats is from Nigeria and amap piano is far from afro beat afro beat borrows from am piano now where is amap piano originated from South Africa from the hoods from the Cassis yeah but when I when I was looking at your video bro uh the only thing in my mind was like bro what's a night like out with Jim Jones CU that [ __ ] look lit there [ __ ] everywhere bro um please please describe a night out in Miami with Jim so let's say we going to Miami right now I mean some nice are better than others but been doing it so long it's kind of like the the bare minimum for us to do in Miami just having fun but it still work at the same time like every every I'm I'm not just going out partying for no reason ni like that was we knew what we was kind of getting into we wanted to film a video so we knew we was going to ramp it up a bit take it to the to the highest form going crazy as we could but that actually happened to fall on a big weekend um and one of my dudes was celebrating so everything kind of happened for a reason but yeah Miami could take you for take you for a few a few trips man like okay so so so me and you we get in the car right I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm in Miami I hate you cuz you got a house there you stay there right yeah I got I got I got cribs there so I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm by the strip you know that Miami strip right yeah yeah yeah I mean see that's the thing about Miami when you come to visit Miami that's where people are know at like the strip and things like that I guess stand by Collins and ocean driveing all that people that live there don't really do the strip like that like you just you dig people congregate usually at night time and all the spots that usually go on down there um okay so we got security obviously you got to roll around with security right um yeah I mean that' be the safest thing for me to do so we get out the cut with security when you get to the bouncers are they letting us in cuz it's Jim Jones or are they checking our IDs cuz they've been checking our IDs just to buy beer here bro Che ID everywhere yeah everywhere yeah no I I don't think I produced my ID in since I was a teenager at clubs but yeah you won't need your ID when you with me so we walking in right yeah we going to get in oh do we have a section do we they going to give us a section VIP yeah they going to give us a section we going to get some bottles and let the night ensue got this thing called Power Hour you go to the club maybe like 2:45 to 3:45 in and out no sweat so what's the what's the purpose of that exercise the Power Hour yeah like why would you be in the cloud for an hour why would I be in a club for 4 hours it's Fu I mean I've been part I've been partying since I've been 14 I've been making money to party since I've been 18 I'm kind of burnt out so at this point I try to wait till the club is at the most popping or lest moment which is usually that hour right there and I get to enjoy everything that happened tonight and leave out of there and not be all burnt out what what does your wife say bro cuz you're married man you're surrounded by all these girls like you know I mean I'm going to worry about the women yeah is minimal to the money worry about the money more than anything so so a woman doesn't like give you grief when you come home I yeah you get you get grief all the time if you in a relationship no matter what you do if you had a job on Wall Street you get home you're going to get grief no around it you heard yeah there's women everywhere unless you work in the LGBT Club then you know I mean even there you still going to go home and get like it's no way around it you're going to get you know I mean like yeah so you've never had like been home and you had to explain like yo no man I was just doing music video it's just work like I don't know that good you going to explain yourself in every relationship and things like that I got a good woman at home who understands a job I have and things like that so for the most part but for the most part I'm a very responsible respectable person when when I'm in the streets and when I do have to interact with females and things like that yeah anyway H ladies and gentlemen welcome to another special edition of podcasting chill so CU yeah I am here we're chilling with the [ __ ] Legend Kings of Harlem please make some noise for Jim Jones Jim I gotta say bro I gotta say bro I'm going to be honest with you when I find that your name was GMO geloo gelo I'm like I'm like Jim Jones losing some G points here man what the [ __ ] is that I'm Puerto Rican and a rubian my pops is Puerto Rican the word gelo means William in English is a Spanish Spanish name cuz you know what I was thinking I was thinking that guy who does the show late night you know the short guy who does like the interviews with um this late night comedian man what are the late night shows oh man not uh bad with these oh gosh the late night guy bro uhri or something not Corin O'Brien no not Trevor Noah the other American guy man like uh old new no he's like jimm Kimel Jimmy Kimel jimy he's got that he's got that short guy his name is julo oh I don't I don't I don't got got me messed up I don't even really watch TV like that bro okay I'll be out chasing the money I ain't even got time to do that and if and if I do got some time I'm trying to get a little bit of rest or I'm thinking about money [ __ ] is crucial out here right now you better get to your dollar a lot of [ __ ] about to happen and if you ain't got no coins boy you going to be [ __ ] up you ever been to uh Puerto Rico yeah I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times yeah but business not for the Heritage part of it so like you don't know where like your your your parents were at Familiar of the place where my father's from but I never really got to do the whole go to give with my family understand the roots understand you know I mean like I didn't get to get to that part of it but I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times you find like that's important like to know you it's definitely important I had this um I did an interview not too long ago about um how important the roots are and get to know where my family from know I mean so we'll start to do that pretty soon so so so your dad you know you know your dad right yeah he's passed away oh okay God bless rest in peace what happened to him he passed away yeah like was it um medical thing or yeah natural causes oh damn like when you young or um maybe when I was uh 23 24 oh damn bro SED to hear that man maybe 26 right before my son passed right before my God bless right before my son Bor bro but you like 47 right now I look good for 47y old man no homo you know what I mean thank you very much like what was what's keeping you looking so good is it the yoga yeah a lot of yoga a lot of Pilates I stay in shape um I'm very uh very big on Fitness um work out like five six times a week um it's one of the best ways to stay young and have better chances of living a long life is that why you do it or maybe there's other purpose like you know a lot of people are in gym for their mental health I mean it's very it's very it's very therapeutic I will say that but my main goal is to look good of course but to give me better chances of living forever bro so how you got into rap um I don't know correct me if I'm wrong right but you used to skip church and go to the train station to to rap like no I never skipped Church to go on the train station and rap I skipped Church to go to the train station and go play video games and run the streets and do everything a bad little kid did from the streets of hollow when we was like S8 and n and things like that I don't know if you know about anything about the subway system in New York but that's the pathway system that get you to all five burrows and we definitely was on the subway which maybe we shouldn't have been but we was a little uh loose um for me rapping actually rapping didn't start later on in life to actually uh C and um they I got a deal and things like that and that was the first time me myself really thought about actually raing cuz I'll be honest with you like um dipet I don't really know much about dipet however I know about you guys individually like Cameron old boy like one of my favorite songs uh jul sna had hear that that was Cameron and Jules and jwes he both was on he both old boy and heon yeah why don't you jump on those tracks man those tracks are massive they was already done I was there for the making of both of them incredible tracks yeah and then how did dipit start start like how did you guys start the whole movement um organically kiss him Harem gr up together um talented kids Cam and Mason BL sh was they already was doing music um Everybody gradu graduated high school I didn't get to go to college they went to college they got kicked out they got kicked out they come moved in with me from that that was a uh foundation for them to D into the music you've been in the game for like 20 30 odd years right been in the game for since 1997 how would you describe the different eras of like um hip-hop right especially now cuz um obviously we all know about the Kendrick Lamar song they're not like us but I didn't know how big it was until I landed in in in America and it's like it's like a movement the video yeah it's like huge it's massive bro yeah it's a big record Kendrick did that shout out to Kendrick shout out to my boy Drake but what do you think about like the evolution of hip-hop in all the different areas you've been a part of what do you mean what do I think about it it's a great thing to be a part of something that um you could only dream of everybody doesn't get a chance to be in this game um I've been fortunate enough to be here for so many genres and errors and seen so many people come and go I've watched the smallest artist to the biggest artist who you thow will be here forever and going um I got stories for days I can tell you about um how I feel about it I feel great I feel blessed you know what I mean I feel lucky this [ __ ] don't it's not promised and for me to still be here is definitely a blessing so in the 90s what was the vibe like man like like what in the 90s as far as what in hip-hop yeah it was it was different um 90s was a great era um one of my favorite errors um that was the era we first first came outside um started to get out deal uh very aggressive era uh no social media um cell phones were just being born um everything that you seen you was something that you could grab on to um artists had to go to the towns we couldn't just get on your phone and music you had to go get you couldn't just have access to it so it was a it was it it was a hunt um you had to touch the Tails kiss babies do radio everything like it was just a different ER but who was around like during that time when you who was around like Tupac was did you like meet Tupac Tupac I didn't get to meet Tupac um Tupac passed away what 95 was that yeah right in big in '97 um no I got to see Tupac do a few times in Harlem um that was dope but um not Tupac passed away before we got to get in the record game but I've seen a lot of a lot of artists in my time from a young age to old age we were partying in clubs as teenagers before we even got a record deal and things like that like we were in clubs since high school and [ __ ] like that so any interactions with Big L he was from Harlem right yeah shouts to Big Al Big Al was definitely from Harlem um 139th NFL Big L um I was one of the Cam's uh close friends um actually put cam on a dope record that started to give uh Cam and bloodshed and and her mcgree her was already popping too but guy gave them some notice when it came to R so when you come out like who's who's popping at that time is it git is it mop D it's way before G when we came out I was like Eminem just dropped oh [ __ ] this is Slim Shady not M like Slim Shady I I remember that that was like cam had dropped and Eminem had dropped DMX had dropped Nori had dropped um Big Pun had dropped lud Chris Luda had just started coming out um Nelly Nelly down down baby yeah shouts to coola love um yeah that type of error shouts to shouts to Fat Joe shouts to Buster they was already in it uh Nas was already in it Jay start going crazy that's when he just started taking over with the 1 million 2 million 3 million 4 um yeah very competitive very edgy um lot of the big dogs um had real roots in the streets um especially in the streets of New York so that put that put a real Mystique on everything when it came to the music um all the events with topnotch um it just was a different feel man it was a heavy heavy dope boy era um this was before the drug dealers wanted to be Rappers that's when the rappers wanted to be drug dealers you know what I mean and and that Arrow was was a very dope high impact trenel and Russian it was a was a great error bro I saw an interview you did correct me if I'm wrong I might be paraphrasing but you mentioned a place called the tunnel or something where everybody would be and you guys were [ __ ] [ __ ] in the bathrooms please please describe that manest cuz a place like that couldn't exist right now bro with all this woke [ __ ] I mean yeah and the cancel cult I would say it was probably the greatest Club The Hip hopers have seen and it was during the 90s era it was the Golden Era um in New York they got you had stories about like Studio 54 in that era when everybody used all the biggest of big used to go to Studio 54 well the tunnel was what Studio 54 was to that era to our era and it didn't make so many people and nationalities and genres and just everybody was like a big pumbo all for the sake of the culture you had some of the flyest models to some of the biggest drug dealers biggest gang bangers I mean every former elicit street life you could think of was in the spot along with the biggest artists and rappers and actors and models that you could find into all athletes um it would definitely like that um and was this like per invite or just like anybody could Rock up there nah you couldn't just rock up there for this is '90s entry was like $100 first of all $100 for a club that was the first time we ever heard of it and that was a lot of money back then especially we probably started in '94 going there teenager so $100 was sto a lot of money in New York at the time sneakers wasn't even costing $100 um to get in the club you definitely had to be connected to know somebody or you had to wait on a long line that usually was a block long um they had like an Express line you could pay $100 to get on Express line that'll get you to the door quicker and then you pay your entry fee um streets was blocked off you was a big dog you was able to bring your cars down there I was able to bring like four five of them if I wanted to um yeah the club was just it was different man pull up to the door security they taking people's shoes off they searching your jacket twisting people inside out like they about to go on the Rikers Island I got to I gave security High files I never took my shoes off and not since high school I when we used go in high school we used to get our shoes taken off and things like that make you feel like you going to the cental bookings and [ __ ] like that so what gave you that clout that allowed you to bring four cars in when nobody or you had to be a big dog to bring four cars in when you could just give them a high five instead of removing your shoes and you're young by then like what gives you that CL I was a big dog since a small pup bro J yeah man what gave you those you know credentials at such a young age to suppos all these people cuz Dr Tre was there yeah you putting in four cars not removing shoes I was a good Lord Biden citizen everybody love Jim Jones even even the girls like would you just rock up they say let's go to the bathroom that's it yeah now that well yeah there was a lot of that going on they had a uh the layout was different first of all the club was a block long a whole city block um wow there was like three other four other clubs within the club or spots that look like clubs um the main floor was humongously big the DJ was like a a lifeguard Tower in the middle of the club um you go upstairs they had a VR big V PE upstairs and then go through a door it open up to the bathroom the bathroom was like a unisex Club [ __ ] had a big ass bar in the middle of the bathroom uh bunch of stalls lined up um that [ __ ] was like a hotel inside Lions cocaine everything yeah they was going down a lot of sex was going down there a lot of a lot of drugs was going down in there um yeah the tunnel was definitely uh a landmark to New York City when it comes to the clubs I I definitely um I always think about that club um it did a lot for me in my life um it gave me a lot of imagination when it came to to the culture and the things I was seeing from a young age as to where I want to be and the direction I want to go in yeah we was going there since high school so when you seeing people like Mike Tyson and all these people coming in big cheer on and just having their way as a kid go out got to go to school the next morning you you in school thinking about that [ __ ] like w man this school [ __ ] [ __ ] this school [ __ ] I need some money and I need to go to the tunnel that's all I want to [ __ ] do that's wild man now can you imagine because we in sa right we're looking at all the videos that you guys are pulling out there like we're looking at this lifestyle and then you F Track to 2024 right M and the P didy thing breaks out right I mean i' rather not even to get into that yeah just don't I rather the do I don't you know I mean like it's not it's not my business oh I mean like this you heard God bless it's too much n yeah and it's not me to have an opinion on certain things cuz I ain't perfect I've been through my own [ __ ] in life and I see a lot of people that have even this doing too much just know that I ain't perfect so I choose not to talk on certain [ __ ] that you know what I mean a lot of other people people been talking about I let them keep doing the talk and I got other [ __ ] to work on I'm trying to work on me being a better person yeah I respect I respect that man but were ever part of any gang or like you sounding like the F never hey we don't the F in South Africa man only PS I'm just playing with you yeah I've been affiliated with the bloods in New York City um ENT Tre um yeah so crazy have you ever been to sa like have you ever been to Africa or um I've been to Africa where did you go uh gaban gille damn G to perform there um I went to perform there but uh got some great friends there they actually had ran the country at the time this is before the big yeah yeah overtaking and stuff like that but I had a ball out there I got to go to an island called Pony um that was a dope experience as they took me to the jungles I got to see some of the indigenous people um it was like a a real um life Awakening like and I got to see how also the rich people live out there also like I got to see both sides like that you know what I mean it was it was a great experience I out there for like a week um I haven't been back since but yeah it was dope you never been to South Africa never been to South Africa bro so the reason why I asked that is because like yo bro like American culture has infiltrated South Africa like you can't believe like you know we got people worshiping you guys you know Jim Jones rappers and everything you so we've got rappers who rap just like you and youd say they're like Bloods and Crips but they've never they've never left sa you know cuz that's how influential uh the culture is right but from you when you see or hear that like what do you guys think like do you think is like some [ __ ] like or like leave don't don't follow the gang life you know what I mean oh as far as that is concerned um there's two sides to that this what you do as a gang member that turns it into something that becomes a crime or whatever that end but the Brotherhood part of it is what the most of us joined up for when we coming up in the hood and need that Brotherhood lean on somebody is that type of camaraderie that pretty much stood for and there's a lot of other great attributes that comes with affiliation or you becoming a part of a gang um it gets twisted up because we all come up in these urban communities and our back is against the wall we don't have no opportunities um it's very dormant uh we on top of each other so naturally testosterone testosterone wins in a lot of these situations where these kids find s in bad situations and for that I would tell people to kind of stay away from this type of life um I don't want to oppose my will we all going to experience what we going to experience but I can't tell you the consequences to this type of Lifestyle could be very dear you heard ethal a lot of people don't get to make it where I made it and Escape that lifestyle that could have put me away or could have put me in the dirt I mean so here as a Living testament to tell you that these consequences are terrible the odds on you making it out of that life in a positive manner are very slim I mean but if you are in that life and you taking it as a Brotherhood and try to uplift your brothers I know there's a lot of people around you that are doing a lot of [ __ ] that that that that that's very crazy you know what I mean if you're a part of that and you got the positive minder then you try to uplift your brother and instill some positivity within them because it's very cold out here so I've always been curious bro like so when that when you you you start getting immersed you know or Affiliated in the gang life how does that affect the conversation at home with your parents like your mom your dad and just the domestic you know Dynamics I a't grow my parents I was a grown man since I was like 15 I made my own money since I was like 16 my grandmother left me in high school man I was raising my Sisters by myself in the projects I hustle every I ever got in my life that's why music saved my life I was so grateful to be able to be next to cam and him getting a deal at such a very young age to be able to still be making money off that [ __ ] right now you were U anr for Warner uh music group yeah I was the director of anr for Warner Music Group um years ago uh shouts to Kevin L shouts to Leo Cohen for giving me the opportunity um great opportunity uh I excelled at it extremely very young with a lot of power but didn't understand what I had at hand um didn't have too many people in my corner that were telling me the things that I should have been doing with that type of position as opposed to some type of weird way be hating you know I mean so that's what happened but as you get older you learn you learn and you move on who did you discover while you were in that position uh I would tell you a story I I know I've helped try s uh they come to tra songs that you know today he's always in he's always in we know why no n but he was a young kid at the time and uh they were actually going to cut him from the label we had a big uh um it's like uh one of them uh some events they be doing not the talent shows the uh well was something like that all the artists had to come perform and then they pretty much didn't know that they was on a Cho and block at the time when I was an executive and and he was one of the artists that they were going to cut and I remember Kevin L specifically ask me yo what we should do with him I'm about to cut him I don't know what to do with him and when I heard him uh singing and I saw him perform I was like this is this is one artist you should keep and did that and now we all tra songs on so many dope ass records is it true you could have signed Drake yeah I had a chance to sign uh I had a chance to do business with Drake um through Allan grum blat um when I was doing business at cotch um it was a different era I didn't understand what Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he show me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah understand everybody going at my guy I understand the hate man the hate is so phenomenal it's just how this game go man this game is so tricky man these [ __ ] just like females in this game we ain't going to get into that man there's a lot of uh but wait wait wait so so with Drake like are you are you seeing him perform like try songs or like you just heard of the guy just a conversation Allan called me about signing a kid let me hear some of his music um and I was like the kid know how to rap but I don't know what to do with him his image is crazy and him couple years later heard him on a Wheezy mixtape going crazy I was like wow this kid is about to go wham inside of this business and he sure did and you're know trying to call Weezy like yo man I gotta get that kid or something n he was already signed a young money and jcole did you miss on jcole as well I could have signed J Cole bro jcole was in the studio with me every day and at that point jcole I he's he remind me of a knockoff Drake and not to say it like that but that's who he sounded like he came to my studio every day rapping to these Drake beats rapping like Drake Cadence like Drake he could rap his ass off yeah you heard yeah but it was already a drake out there he had the Caesar it was different like two lightskinn [ __ ] might not K when raing the same but you never know what you got in front of you man you dig and those are lessons I I've took with me to moving forward when I see artists and and I hate artists I always give them more than just hearing just just I got to I got to I gotta try to capture the whole picture I make sure I just don't you mean so I don't miss nothing else because I've missed a few people and I've helped a few people um gain a lot of success in in my time in this industry whether it been by me having a meeting with them or me having influence on them or you know I mean so you know and there's never like any animosity like Jake Cole or Drake never came up to be like yo you could have signed me look at me now bro I mean me and Drake is cool as [ __ ] um I see J Cole I don't think he I mean I don't think that's no he some [ __ ] he might want to keep to himself not to be like that sh the co he not that type of artist he's not a you I mean yeah you did I look I look at as we can see I want to mention an artist who like I'm really fond of like I think this guy's [ __ ] amazing musically talented everything that he touched like turned to Gold who's that uh kid k bro K Cy yeah yeah did you help him with his career yeah I birth K Cy wow J me how so bro bir them nobody would have know who K Cy was at all if I a jump on this remix record but it wasn't even remix he wasn't even a nobody like I tell a story all the time I had a inter used to work for me said he got some dudes that do videos they would like to do a video for me told them come let me see they work they show me their videos the first video they showed me was of the kid Cy record he's on the top of a roof some simple video the record sound more wavy than the opportunity for them to do a video I'm like well if you'll get me the beat to this record I Remix this record and then y'all can shoot the video to that record wow and that's what they did and then um the radio station ripped the record off of YouTube and start playing it at Hot 97 and K Cy was born bro why do you think especially about kid Cy cuz from him when I listen to music right it wasn't really no no other kid Cy record besides the one that I was on yeah man he's not in they don't play his records where I be at at all not to be funny wow bro and we listen to him like all that day and night you know remember only record I know yeah it's the only record I know unless it's like a pop record that everybody know and I and I'm even not paying attention to it but he don't his records don't get played nowhere that i' be at not like that unless I go into a different farm and that's the type of music they playing in one of these funny clubs that play fist pump music and pop music he's not into like you dig like they don't play his music in the clubs I'll be at maybe in Vegas and [ __ ] like that but that's not like they not pumping this [ __ ] in live they not pumping this [ __ ] in Atlanta they not pumping this [ __ ] down the Stafford room or you know what I mean like they I'm not saying nothing like that but I don't hear it in the strip clubs I don't hear like you know what I mean so but he's a very successful person with some of the greats like Kanye to put him in a position to win and [ __ ] like that and I think he's way more better as an actor than he is a musician and that's just my POS that's just my opinion he did I seen him in the movie uh about the race car [ __ ] where he was F the playe like he got a lot of Charisma and [ __ ] like that on on camera for what I could see and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean bro I mean for you as Jim Jones to to see these kids you're introduced to them by an intern and then to hop onto that song it's something selfless you know to just give these unknown kids an opportunity of sharing a song with you where do you think that selflessness comes from how was that unknown kid I'm still an unknown kid anytime I get an opportunity that's an opportunity I should be able to give to somebody else bro the fact that you could even come to our podcast shout out man yeah man you don't even know us exactly what you're saying yeah know us what's his name I don't it's fine you know remember those kids who who did the video for him anyway you know remember I remember like that kids that got the biggest African podcast I'm definitely going to know like them is my guys right family right there appreciate I really mean that that sincerely and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean I I bump in too many people in my life and been across too many people in my journey to actually remember everybody's name but the face and the cause and I mean BR I want to understand right the first time you came up with the concept For Love and Hip Hop where were you what was happening that um that was something like uh me and Christy she had opportunity to do uh her own reality show um and actually fell through and that kind of she was kind of she wanted to do that I can see she was eager about doing that when it fell through kind you know I mean [ __ ] with her mood and [ __ ] like that so so so so so the initial concept what was it was just Chrissy just showing like what's life the initial concept was about she had her own thing going on about a group of women that was supposed to do a reality show had nothing to do with me yeah that [ __ ] fell through she lost that opportunity to end up not going people have been begging me to do reality TV for past couple years at the time and I and you reality TV gold man I refused to do it yeah and then when that happened I was like all right I got I'll do this for you and we'll make it about you and females that have to that are involved with artist such as myself and show what the relationship side is when you're dealing with a high-profile artist and you know what I mean how so that's how that started bro and that thing became a monster super super monster like it's still big till this day bro 100% so do you have like uh ownership in that we we were link a all that you know at that time when maybe the second season we just in a position where we refuse to compromise our dignity for anyone or any dollar and sometimes it be like that you know what I mean um but ain't no stress off my back T my hat to him you no but but but we got to talk about that because you see like this podcast um it's blackowned right it's just me and a couple of other people that are involved in the podcast right and we're always striving for ownership so a lot of um Brands and investors have come to try to buy the podcast and we say know cuz like we believe in ownership and telling the story the way we want to tell it right so what went wrong in that because as a hustler I believe like that's your also end goal MH um it wasn't something that I was just a lot of different layers and [ __ ] like that and I was too worried about doing other things and we had the opportunity to gain all ownership 50% of the whole TV show and all that but it still wasn't worth GE bro that's insane you just let go like that yeah bro it's your brain child bro there is no Love and& Hip Hop without you bro I still got a brain you heard yeah those are for people that don't have a brain that lack creativity people that steal things from you lack what you don't have remember that yeah whether it's money whether it's creativity whatever it is they lack what you don't have ultimately they steal from you you heard I mean we didn't even know C beef if it wasn't for Love and& Hip Hop right yeah yeah yeah definitely yeah bro you gave birth to so many many people man like VI their careers that's the god in me that's why I'm always going to be good yeah she man so any other shows that you're working on like in the pipeline that you want to do I was telling you I working on um a late night show a late night um a late night variety show live in studio audience hopefully we'll be filming in about 40 to 60 days um beautiful concept I do I do believe people going enjoy the show um like I was saying I can't do um a podcast is too personal for me and [ __ ] like that and me watching these podcasts um dealing with these artists me myself don't have the temperament for it you know what I mean um I [ __ ] I T my hat to y'all to have to deal with artists such as myself cuz you never know what type of mood they going to come in you know what I me some of these artists have a air to them where they feel like they better than most and they would never sit and have tea with the with the maintenance guy you heard me myself me going to maintenance guy going to smoke blunts before I get on stage [Music] I live my life and and and currently uh before we let you go man what do you think about the state of hip-hop cuz like statistically numbers wise it's not looking good man e beats has played all over New York now there's now the pianos this is this is what they want you to do this is how to get us to go against each other it's all under the same culture umbrella it's afro music ref I'm a piano I'm a piano explain that what do you mean by that bro yeah R&B what do you mean by that ultimately it's all from under the same origin and creativity of the same person from the same colors is all our thing n but let's be honest Jimmy hip-hop hasn't involved bro when I was listening to Eminem what do you want mean what do you mean hip-hop hasn't evolved you guys are still rapping about the same stuff it don't you you missing the point of what hip-hop is yeah hip-hop has evolved to a point that you can be the music genres that you're told them about can be noticed you think that if there was a hip hop that I'm a piano would be noticed or afro Beach would be noticed think about that and not to take nothing away from y because you always have culture and yes that music might be big within the continent of Africa yeah right but to cross over to American Fame and commercialism you don't think that the hip-hop culture played a big part in that that's that that's a different argument now you want to have a different argument I'm telling you the semantics of where we going with this you dig like you talking about uh the the hip hop music is damn percentage that's how they want us to think when it's really not cuz we all uplifting each other you heard you think that the country music that's going on in the black people winning is not because of the hip-hop culture no no no I think no one is disputing that however so then when you say hip-hop numbers are down and damn for who no I'm talking about I know what you're talking about but damn for who tell me who it's down for because I'm still making the money I make yeah I do believe there's still a lot of artist that's making a shitload of money that they make I don't think it went down for them yeah you know what I mean but I understand what you're talking about they say the numbers and then rock and roll genre might be up like I don't really you heard like that's I'm into this business you heard and it's always up for us you heard cuz this is a business we make money out of nothing it's never a downside to this okay and and that's why I'm saying I think we're having two different conversations here cuz the conversation I'm having is I'm having I'm having right is that in as much as he's saying yeah the numbers are down because they orchestrated and whatever I get that right but also that's why I asked do you think Hip-hop has evolved cuz I grew up on hip-hop right and the same things um quote unquote you guys were rapping about in the '90s how can hipop how can hip hop evolved in the same thing that Africa been Africa been going on since the '90s aren't y going still going through the same thing we are huh we are so how could the music evolve when the music ref the time ah okay get you real stories what you want us to rap about [ __ ] that that we don't have ah we talk about [ __ ] we dream about all the time that's the good The Good Life the colorin the Ros we talk about but the truth is how the music going to change when our position hasn't changed when we still going through the same [ __ ] we've been going through okay and y'all being from Africa should know that more than we know that yeah that's facts that's fact go about that own Cod yeah yeah yeah yeah you know are bro that's a valid fact but how do you feel man like you've come from an era where you guys when what you you said in your raps I mean evolved as far as dition as far as what we rap about cuz we still stuck in the same place but as a business it has evolved to one of big time yeah yeah biggest big time money making machines you can attach yourself to this made some of the richest individuals whether you're the rapper the lawyer the executive like that's true you know what I mean the supply chain but then I think that's why you know when you get the likes of a wz coming out and Kendrick Lamar they stand out like a sore thumb because like they are rapping about but that's what music is about to stand out for those who that want to look like everybody they don't get nowhere why you think Dip set was so successful sucessful yeah because we stood out on purpose we don't want to look like or H or sound like no one else m we want yall to above all see us when we walk in the building and hear us when we get on that [ __ ] mic you heard why would you guys the diplomats I never like where did that come from the diplomats the name the diplomats yeah we diplomats oh ah okay that sounded cool no we diplomats we are Harlem diplomats and we take it as that you heard we go to the Embassy when we land in countries you heard all right okay okay okay I I sort of get that bro so in the business and how you still making money right now like from music just like how is it royalties damn you asking a lot of questions bro no I want to know bro I'm so I've got so many questions I want to ask you bro I'll tell you this music is supposed to be used so you can make as much ancillary dollars as you can because the music ain't promised everybody 15 minutes of fame ranges from a small 15 minutes of fame to a run like we having within that minute the 15 minutes the fame you better do a lot of other things to secure your bag because music is not going to be thing you be able to get paid off forever unless you're the DRS and the J that's not even 1% that's you know what I mean so you think about that so you better have some hustle you better learn how to you better have some business sense you better put your credit in order you better do a few things to secure you if you are artist [ __ ] leverage powerful penda yeah man how do you feel man when these kids these days wrap up about you know trying to act tough and rap about stuff they never done like you guys red about stuff you lived I mean I do believe a lot of these kids are going through a lot of [ __ ] that we went through and then a lot of the kids are talking about [ __ ] that they see but most of the kids are all growing up in the same community that all of that [ __ ] is going on so who tells them they don't have the right to talk about [ __ ] that they're not doing when that's still [ __ ] that they're seeing oh sure Ah that's powerful but the problem I have a problem when they rapping like they did it but they just R from somebody else's Vantage Point understand that but most of these artists that you've seen in the game some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I pretty firm in his in in his music that I'm a believer that he did some of that [ __ ] he can talk about just me I don't know you possibilities are possibilities but some things just seem correct you know mean I can't tell you for sure cuz it is music you know what I mean but some things seem correct [ __ ] man bro you got to come out to man you got to you know we haven't had a proper uh hip-hop concert in sa like since 50 N since you are come on back to the city does concerts man ah those are for old people empd the bigest artist in South Africa right now Hip-Hop Hip-Hop uh there's a guy called nastyc but nesty came here he doesn't know know you f poopa who's that nah F poopa Nigerian West African artist massive he used to pop not now for real still massive bigger than like ber boyo still it's different type of music oh stadiums is 50 60,000 people like what is this following this gu what's his name f poop F poop I don't know him bro he's from Nigeria yeah yeah yeah yeah Nigerian Prett pretty big yeah humongous bro how big was was 50 Cent bro like during his Reign man like how big was 50 Cent [ __ ] retardedly big it wasn't nothing bigger than him was Drake before Drake was dring he was oh [ __ ] he did it like it was like 50 was on a run that he never even touched the club bro like [ __ ] never seen him in the club he only did Arenas I never knew too many artist that just did that you dig like the [ __ ] was super massive every [ __ ] Rec he came out with was was going platinum and I'm just telling you the facts you heard and I always got to speak factual no matter how I feel about a person the [ __ ] was on top Super on top it was no way to knock him off his d i remember Jay-Z dropped the diss track on you did you guys resolve that beef I think you were not happy with him as the president of De jam oh man um we never really had a beef um we had some feuds back and forth through the situations that were going on over other people um and me being who I am I had to hold my ground um but to know that he actually talked about me in multiple of his records mean that I was pretty big in his eyes you dig true true cuz I didn't hear him talk about too many people in his career and if he did talk you talk about you on the record that meant something you know what I mean and I was then so for me that I I I took that like what it was like you dig like yeah J doesn't respond to take the time out to say my name you heard if I'm if I'm not that big of a deal to you you would never ever a am I am I right talk about a person you heard true it's it's a form of respect and ackowledge 100% am I right in saying a lot of [ __ ] are scared of Jay-Z bro cuz we interviewed Dam Ian I don't I don't know I'm not a lot of [ __ ] you heard I'm a man so I couldn't I I couldn't tell you that you heard I ain't scared to nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that that that dentist yeah the dentist got me there you heard you can walk in you could walk we about to fight right now you a dentist walk in you got it you got it like you got it bow down you got it I don't want no smoke let me get out of here M fact word Jimmy before you go man uh what beefs did you have so you had something beef with Jay-Z right no man I just told you we had some feuds stemming from that's beef bro stemming from other things that going on um my problem like it was all part of Us coming up in the game and things were happening we were signing a Rockefeller cam was sign a Rockefeller actually then we got opportunity to Diplomat records um the split between uh Jay and Dame came um artist took sides some took the J side some took the the Dame side which side were you on we was on the Dame side OB Dash yeah Dame Dash that's do you think Dame Dash is misunderstood bro huh you think Dame Dash is misunderstood um too smart for his own good I get that yeah if you had the opportunity again you sometimes being the smartest person in the room could be held against you especially when you want everybody to know that you're the smartest person in the room yeah yeah yeah and I get given a second chance would you still side with Dam never you wouldn't never whoa I never signed a d at all that was no no no like sided with him took his side oh give a second chance I wouldn't have sided with none of them I would we would haveed our [ __ ] business but you learned that with age yeah you heard we had no business butting into that because it wasn't a street beef and this wasn't some [ __ ] that had to do with us ultimately we were holding our [ __ ] down and [ __ ] like that but business-wise if we would if we knew what we knew now we would let them get into that they self y'all can handle that because we got records to put out and music to make and we got our own record label to run you dig and this my hinder what we got going on by us taking sides and that's why I tell people now even when people seeing all the Diplomat [ __ ] like y bro don't don't get in to taking sides with me and my bro because you never know how that might end up and if it end up to a point where we do figure out our situation then I'm looking at you funny now me and you got forever you heard you dig and there are plenty of people that did that and plenty people that didn't and plenty people that showed the same amount of love that he showed to me that it showed to cam when we were going through our imaginary situations and [ __ ] like that cuz it's all imaginary when you know you can figure figure it out now it's a saying that like don't just be in people's business when especially when they've beef and take sides cuz and I I had to learn that a lot I had took me a long time to learn that because of how we come up in the Cod that they supposedly treat us in teach us in the street and [ __ ] like that but sometimes that's not the smallest thing that we can do and then uh push a t did you ever beef with him nah that was some [ __ ] that we was on record um he did some [ __ ] I did some [ __ ] you dig that was it I never followed that I didn't even know did you know there's a pusher T me I ain't got no just know I don't know I know you're from I know you're from Africa and [ __ ] like that but people don't play with me yeah for real and I don't I don't play with people this ain't no playground you heard this is the street it's two ways don't get caught up in a yellow line it's going to be hard to cross bro yeah you heard no I don't trust me I'm from Africa but I saw what happened at the airport so that [ __ ] escalated yeah [ __ ] that was self-defense man God yo bro it looked like that guy was just messing with you bro I wish that could have never happened cuz I was trying to avoid that by all cause but [ __ ] happened sometime man you dig and definitely not not going to allow anybody do anything to me at all bro when I saw that video right like I don't know I just met you today right but I saw when you lifted that guy from the escalator threw him down he literally just went on survival mode bro like it's like there was a button that you switched on and you just like I don't [ __ ] care but yeah yeah no I mean no that's a button that I choose not to push you heard yeah exactly like you can go there quickly I choose to show restraint for a lot of reasons in my life and sometimes it's hard to you dig but where I'm at in life right now I choose positivity or all the other things that come out my way because I know how it is to be negative I was once that negative person that was very aggressive and ready to do something to to you over the minimal alistic of things and [ __ ] like that so I'm blessed to be here to try to be able to show restraint and so so the guy so the guy at the airport you guys on the same plane yeah we on the same plane so you don't have a private jet no I don't have a private jet I'm not a rich man come on Jimmy you made so much money over the years but anyway so you're in the plane what's he what's this guy saying to you like um I don't know man just [ __ ] happens I know just the started from the plane just know that what you see happen on so it starts on the plane you restrain yourself you're like all right cool my dog say whatever you want to say yeah when he gets to the airport I mean the escalator that's when I think he starts hitting you or something right yeah something like that he tried to do something like that and that's what we see man but like I said this is not something that I want to glorify it's not you think he knows who you are um if if he didn't he know now no I'm I'm sorry see sorry cuz some people just provoke I believe he was he was trolling a little bit and things like that which is cool you I mean I'm if if you in New York not time 10 you do know who I am so you know I believe it was a bit of that but God bless man hopefully that they all right hopefully the old man um cool you dig like are you spiritual cuz you mentioned God a lot man yeah I'm very spiritual very spiritual very spiritual I've been my whole family is spiritual and what does that mean in an American sense cuz um us as African for me it means a lot of different things um I was told what the church was as a young age as they drag you to church every Sunday your grandmother your moms and your family and things like that and you really don't understand what that is from that young but as you get older and you go through certain things and you make it through certain things you understand that there is a God and everybody has a relationship with their God different and sometimes going to church doesn't mean that you love your God any less or he loves you any less you dig and you say spiritual I'm very spiritual I say my prayers as much as I can sometime two three four times in a day you dig man doesn't take away from what I do and who I am because I'm still in the line for everything else everybody is in but I know every day that I'm able to wake up and every day I'm able to make a dollar and every day I'm able to keep living the life that I am I should be thankful you heard cuz that's not just me that's a higher vibration that's definitely a God you dig and I'm well aware that I've escaped many things in life that Lord knows I should not be here but then again I should be here cuz he put here for a reason he gives his toughest battles to his strongest people what the Bible say you heard and I've made it through some very tough battles which are minimal to some of the people that I had next to me in their battles you know what I mean so it's like we all got to figure it out Jim Jones thank you so much man and thanks to God for bringing you here man definitely I appreciate for making time for us bro thank you man we appreciate you tired when you got you I appreciate the fact that you could even make it man got any last question yeah man bro you said you've gone through some tough battles and you mentioned how you lost your dad at like 26 but also that you you pretty much raised yourself from the age of 15 you know from that relationship or lack of it like has it affected how you father your children 100% this made me the best father I could be but me my relationship with my father was always a great one even though he wasn't there because every day he wasn't I love them even more I wasn't one of them kids that was bitter you dig I understand that everybody went through something and at that age what he was going through there was a lot of drug addiction and I knew that from a very young age I understood what drugs was and how they were tearing up my family I never held that against my father and I was just blessed able to get back with him before he passed away so he could see that his son was making something out of himself at that time I was already signed to her uh we think we just got the Rockefeller deal so it was a very big deal for me to be able to get back with my father to show him that me somebody that you should be proud of and I know him looking down right now got be like damn I did that so you know and that's how I feel but then in turn TR here my son I don't you know I mean like I just you know mean I pride myself on making sure that I I turned my son into somebody that was way better than I could ever be you oh man yeah that's my guy shout out to you man is your son still wearing Crocs to you br he's a Croc guy you heard yeah Crocs for Life bro Crocs for Life jumping out the beam with a fresh paer Crocs on I don't want to stand him Jimmy before you go your top five rappers all time my top five rappers of all you got to give us your top five bro yeah Tupac definitely Jay-Z Drake um Drake he not like us by default of course um rock cam no Eminem No No whoa not even big you from NY and not to take nothing away from him he's extremely nice it's retardedly nice when it comes to rap but I listen to artists that kind of you know I mean do something for the life that I live and kind of what I've been through and most of these artist or artist that I'm talking about people that you know what I mean like [ __ ] better stop hating on my boy Drake all of a sudden all this Drake land I get it I get it you ain't like us let's not do that let's not forget the 15 years he been spanking [ __ ] around this [ __ ] all all all over this [ __ ] all the alley he been giving most of these artists that are now seeming to be turning on them let's you know let's not some of them gave him their best hits let's not forget the big picture here and [ __ ] like but what the hip-hop culture and this game is built on competition so I yeah but what is he with it you heard you better put your best foot forward but what has Drake given back to the culture oh that you so love here we go um what is he giving back to the culture I seen him take a lot of people on tour and turn them even richer than they already was I I seen him give a lot of people hits that they would have never had if he wouldn't have got on a record things for the culture that wouldn't have happened in turn records that we would have never knew about him to record that the culture love and things like that I mean he's not from here Canada from the hood I don't believe he owes America too much but the monster that give back to where he's from maybe we should ask about what has he done in Canada giving back to his community as opposed to what he giving back to the culture of the United States when this is not where he's from and I think that's the Divide right there now if we talk about what he's done in Canada and if it's not up to par then maybe we can talk about oh you dig but that's I think that's for the people of Canada you dig like yeah cuz but it's the people of America in the hood who made him of course you heard about but that he didn't grw up in America he didn't grew up here you heard so if you was an artist from Africa yeah like boy yeah do you think bnab boy has responsibility what do Niger of United stes n I'm taking it back home bro super duper big yes but that's what people then will call a culture vulture cuz you come into a space you know do what the people of that space do benefit from them is is is you understand what we doing like it's bro it's not because he's not take so he's not taking benab boy is Nigerian it's a Nigerian culture that is now popular in America so Drake took an American culture and enriched himself but what he's saying is that he doesn't owe anything to America cuz he's not from yet right okay right yeah I mean [ __ ] he's got no obligation Fair argument he got no obligation Fair argument yeah like he lived if he lived like I don't I don't that's how I see it you heard like that's how I see it you dig but all these [ __ ] we talking about are filthy filthy filthy rich off the opinions of men you heard what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never but what I'm just trying to tell you is how this game is played yeah you heard yeah geez man the more we talk the more they get paid the loser still gets paid too if there is a loser I don't think there's a loser when they all getting Millions off of this [ __ ] I don't think I mean like and I understand end all be all in the whole circle of it but I'm I've been in this [ __ ] for so long I'm miss you can see the politics of really get you to understand of what's really going on and [ __ ] like that this [ __ ] don't pay me a dollar to talk about it yeah hey man how tight you with Joe Bon he calls us those African guys with numbers oh yeah yeah yeah Jo this my guy buts what's up man he cool yeah he's an instigator definely know how to get under people's skin yeah I've known Joan for so long [ __ ] like that um I'm proud of him put himself in his position a whole new Lane to make a shitload of money um where it stem from the culture this what I'm talking about all the ancillary things that you need to get going on if are a artist of some type of success you got to use that to get where you want look at Joe used his startom and rap no matter what it was to able to finesse a whole new Lane of podcasting that true he's pretty big in damn near one of the forefathers of it from our culture right y'all started before him or after him we started after him but now we have more numbers than him hey doesn't matter no numbers do matter I mean no J and get num I'm cool with that but you won't be never be the considered the forefather of this whole no no no no no no no you dig 100% yeah it's Jo Joan numbers is cool I'm cool with that you get paid and I know what's a race you might be number one you heard yeah yeah but you still never be the forefather always going to have that under him like I've created this Lane for your how I feel about Ling hip hop yeah of course I got that under my belt that's mine y can never say that was yours at all yeah okay how much money you made off of it and [ __ ] like that at the end of the day you it's mine you heard Still My still mine so we always ask anybody any guest that we get on the show in closing what do you want to be remembered as man when it's all said and done I want I want to be remembered I want I want them to know that I gave more than I took because I was able to take a lot in my time amen just like that sh hey man I wish you put me on love and& hip-hop bro they got the African love of Hip Hop they got Jamaican love of Hip Hop they got they got any type of Love of Hip Hop we need the South African love of Hip Hop thanks Jim man shout out thank you bro I appreciate you man thank you we appreciate podcast and chill we out of here man boom peace welcome to Black excellenc do not fear for if you do just sip on some Grand and if you still do ask ourselves what would M [Music] do when they ask you do not fear for if you do just say an TV this is the the medicine of censorship this is the pill which one is that one podcast and chill	Africa being one of the biggest continents in the world a lot of people over there shut up man why you so tired bro crazy weekend I've been working all weekend shows different states traveling Planes Trains automobiles you know how I be a little bit too much partying yeah road kill it's tough but what's up how y'all feeling I'm good bro I literally saw um I saw your video uh yesterday for your new single the one you shot in Miami two turn temp yeah yeah how you feel about it bro that [ __ ] is lit man looks like our Vibe bro cuz we've been to Miami myself and and my partner but we never like experienced the Miami night life we were playing in Florida yeah we're DJing in Florida but two South Africans like the diaspora then West Palm Beach as well yeah DJ also yeah like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano what it's a genre it's called a piano no no cuz I'm a piano even you heard like you saw he did the whole Keys thing it has nothing to do with the piano that's where it started but has nothing to do with it these days when when I met charlot man he said the exact same thing he's like oh so you're a podcaster I'm like yeah and then	6	8	4	Africa being one of the biggest continents in the world a lot of people over there shut up man why you so tired bro crazy weekend I've been working all weekend shows different states traveling Planes Trains automobiles you know how I be a little bit too much partying yeah road kill it's tough but what's up how y'all feeling I'm good bro I literally saw um I saw your video uh yesterday for your new single the one you shot in Miami two turn temp yeah yeah how you feel about it bro that [ __ ] is lit man looks like our Vibe bro cuz we've been to Miami myself and and my partner but we never like experienced the Miami night life we were playing in Florida yeah we're DJing in Florida but two South Africans like the diaspora then West Palm Beach as well yeah DJ also yeah like what type of music y DJ	oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano what it's a genre it's called a piano no no cuz I'm a piano even you heard like you saw he did the whole Keys thing it has nothing to do with the piano that's where it started but has nothing to do with it these days when when I met charlot man he said the exact same thing he's like oh so you're a podcaster I'm like yeah	6,8,5	2,4,6	6	8	5	2	4	6
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr730VmL-lk	4,054	rr730VmL-lk	2024-06-27 00:00:00	like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano no well Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he showed me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah just understand everybody going there my guy I understand the hate exactly what you're saying yeah bro what's his name I don't it's fine you remember those some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I ain't scared of nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that the dentist yeah dentist got me there what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never [Music] [Music] yo Jimmy you do not look like you want to be here bro like someone forced you to be it's like you have to do that par they're the biggest podcast in Africa you have to be there I never look like I want to be nowhere man you got to part of me but congratulations to yall having the biggest podcast in Africa that that that's very big Africa being one of the biggest continents in the world a lot of people over there shut up man why you so tired bro crazy weekend I've been working all weekend shows different states traveling Planes Trains automobiles you know how I be a little bit too much partying yeah road kill it's tough but what's up how y'all feeling I'm good bro I literally saw um I saw your video uh yesterday for your new single the one you shot in Miami two turn temp yeah yeah how you feel about it bro that [ __ ] is lit man looks like our Vibe bro cuz we've been to Miami myself and and my partner but we never like experienced the Miami night life we were playing in Florida yeah we're DJing in Florida but two South Africans like the diaspora then West Palm Beach as well yeah DJ also yeah like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano what it's a genre it's called a piano no no cuz I'm a piano even you heard like you saw he did the whole Keys thing it has nothing to do with the piano that's where it started but has nothing to do with it these days when when I met charlot man he said the exact same thing he's like oh so you're a podcaster I'm like yeah and then you DJs I'm like no I play I'm a Pian like you're a Pianist man you one talented [ __ ] n it's a genre of music man what kind of genre is that like it's like slowed down house music with a lot of s that African influence that's the only way I can describe it so it's a it's a mix of a marriage house yeah a marriage of house music which originated here at Chicago and stuff and then we slowed it down created a sub genre called guo where guys were sort of rapping but very minimalist raps called guo then the kids were born like in the 2000s late '90s then created a whole meshup of those two genres and it's called Piano cuz a a lot of Americans think it's um afro beats it's not afro beats yeah a lot of the hence I avoided saying afro beats cuz AFR beats is from Nigeria and amap piano is far from afro beat afro beat borrows from am piano now where is amap piano originated from South Africa from the hoods from the Cassis yeah but when I when I was looking at your video bro uh the only thing in my mind was like bro what's a night like out with Jim Jones CU that [ __ ] look lit there [ __ ] everywhere bro um please please describe a night out in Miami with Jim so let's say we going to Miami right now I mean some nice are better than others but been doing it so long it's kind of like the the bare minimum for us to do in Miami just having fun but it still work at the same time like every every I'm I'm not just going out partying for no reason ni like that was we knew what we was kind of getting into we wanted to film a video so we knew we was going to ramp it up a bit take it to the to the highest form going crazy as we could but that actually happened to fall on a big weekend um and one of my dudes was celebrating so everything kind of happened for a reason but yeah Miami could take you for take you for a few a few trips man like okay so so so me and you we get in the car right I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm in Miami I hate you cuz you got a house there you stay there right yeah I got I got I got cribs there so I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm by the strip you know that Miami strip right yeah yeah yeah I mean see that's the thing about Miami when you come to visit Miami that's where people are know at like the strip and things like that I guess stand by Collins and ocean driveing all that people that live there don't really do the strip like that like you just you dig people congregate usually at night time and all the spots that usually go on down there um okay so we got security obviously you got to roll around with security right um yeah I mean that' be the safest thing for me to do so we get out the cut with security when you get to the bouncers are they letting us in cuz it's Jim Jones or are they checking our IDs cuz they've been checking our IDs just to buy beer here bro Che ID everywhere yeah everywhere yeah no I I don't think I produced my ID in since I was a teenager at clubs but yeah you won't need your ID when you with me so we walking in right yeah we going to get in oh do we have a section do we they going to give us a section VIP yeah they going to give us a section we going to get some bottles and let the night ensue got this thing called Power Hour you go to the club maybe like 2:45 to 3:45 in and out no sweat so what's the what's the purpose of that exercise the Power Hour yeah like why would you be in the cloud for an hour why would I be in a club for 4 hours it's Fu I mean I've been part I've been partying since I've been 14 I've been making money to party since I've been 18 I'm kind of burnt out so at this point I try to wait till the club is at the most popping or lest moment which is usually that hour right there and I get to enjoy everything that happened tonight and leave out of there and not be all burnt out what what does your wife say bro cuz you're married man you're surrounded by all these girls like you know I mean I'm going to worry about the women yeah is minimal to the money worry about the money more than anything so so a woman doesn't like give you grief when you come home I yeah you get you get grief all the time if you in a relationship no matter what you do if you had a job on Wall Street you get home you're going to get grief no around it you heard yeah there's women everywhere unless you work in the LGBT Club then you know I mean even there you still going to go home and get like it's no way around it you're going to get you know I mean like yeah so you've never had like been home and you had to explain like yo no man I was just doing music video it's just work like I don't know that good you going to explain yourself in every relationship and things like that I got a good woman at home who understands a job I have and things like that so for the most part but for the most part I'm a very responsible respectable person when when I'm in the streets and when I do have to interact with females and things like that yeah anyway H ladies and gentlemen welcome to another special edition of podcasting chill so CU yeah I am here we're chilling with the [ __ ] Legend Kings of Harlem please make some noise for Jim Jones Jim I gotta say bro I gotta say bro I'm going to be honest with you when I find that your name was GMO geloo gelo I'm like I'm like Jim Jones losing some G points here man what the [ __ ] is that I'm Puerto Rican and a rubian my pops is Puerto Rican the word gelo means William in English is a Spanish Spanish name cuz you know what I was thinking I was thinking that guy who does the show late night you know the short guy who does like the interviews with um this late night comedian man what are the late night shows oh man not uh bad with these oh gosh the late night guy bro uhri or something not Corin O'Brien no not Trevor Noah the other American guy man like uh old new no he's like jimm Kimel Jimmy Kimel jimy he's got that he's got that short guy his name is julo oh I don't I don't I don't got got me messed up I don't even really watch TV like that bro okay I'll be out chasing the money I ain't even got time to do that and if and if I do got some time I'm trying to get a little bit of rest or I'm thinking about money [ __ ] is crucial out here right now you better get to your dollar a lot of [ __ ] about to happen and if you ain't got no coins boy you going to be [ __ ] up you ever been to uh Puerto Rico yeah I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times yeah but business not for the Heritage part of it so like you don't know where like your your your parents were at Familiar of the place where my father's from but I never really got to do the whole go to give with my family understand the roots understand you know I mean like I didn't get to get to that part of it but I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times you find like that's important like to know you it's definitely important I had this um I did an interview not too long ago about um how important the roots are and get to know where my family from know I mean so we'll start to do that pretty soon so so so your dad you know you know your dad right yeah he's passed away oh okay God bless rest in peace what happened to him he passed away yeah like was it um medical thing or yeah natural causes oh damn like when you young or um maybe when I was uh 23 24 oh damn bro SED to hear that man maybe 26 right before my son passed right before my God bless right before my son Bor bro but you like 47 right now I look good for 47y old man no homo you know what I mean thank you very much like what was what's keeping you looking so good is it the yoga yeah a lot of yoga a lot of Pilates I stay in shape um I'm very uh very big on Fitness um work out like five six times a week um it's one of the best ways to stay young and have better chances of living a long life is that why you do it or maybe there's other purpose like you know a lot of people are in gym for their mental health I mean it's very it's very it's very therapeutic I will say that but my main goal is to look good of course but to give me better chances of living forever bro so how you got into rap um I don't know correct me if I'm wrong right but you used to skip church and go to the train station to to rap like no I never skipped Church to go on the train station and rap I skipped Church to go to the train station and go play video games and run the streets and do everything a bad little kid did from the streets of hollow when we was like S8 and n and things like that I don't know if you know about anything about the subway system in New York but that's the pathway system that get you to all five burrows and we definitely was on the subway which maybe we shouldn't have been but we was a little uh loose um for me rapping actually rapping didn't start later on in life to actually uh C and um they I got a deal and things like that and that was the first time me myself really thought about actually raing cuz I'll be honest with you like um dipet I don't really know much about dipet however I know about you guys individually like Cameron old boy like one of my favorite songs uh jul sna had hear that that was Cameron and Jules and jwes he both was on he both old boy and heon yeah why don't you jump on those tracks man those tracks are massive they was already done I was there for the making of both of them incredible tracks yeah and then how did dipit start start like how did you guys start the whole movement um organically kiss him Harem gr up together um talented kids Cam and Mason BL sh was they already was doing music um Everybody gradu graduated high school I didn't get to go to college they went to college they got kicked out they got kicked out they come moved in with me from that that was a uh foundation for them to D into the music you've been in the game for like 20 30 odd years right been in the game for since 1997 how would you describe the different eras of like um hip-hop right especially now cuz um obviously we all know about the Kendrick Lamar song they're not like us but I didn't know how big it was until I landed in in in America and it's like it's like a movement the video yeah it's like huge it's massive bro yeah it's a big record Kendrick did that shout out to Kendrick shout out to my boy Drake but what do you think about like the evolution of hip-hop in all the different areas you've been a part of what do you mean what do I think about it it's a great thing to be a part of something that um you could only dream of everybody doesn't get a chance to be in this game um I've been fortunate enough to be here for so many genres and errors and seen so many people come and go I've watched the smallest artist to the biggest artist who you thow will be here forever and going um I got stories for days I can tell you about um how I feel about it I feel great I feel blessed you know what I mean I feel lucky this [ __ ] don't it's not promised and for me to still be here is definitely a blessing so in the 90s what was the vibe like man like like what in the 90s as far as what in hip-hop yeah it was it was different um 90s was a great era um one of my favorite errors um that was the era we first first came outside um started to get out deal uh very aggressive era uh no social media um cell phones were just being born um everything that you seen you was something that you could grab on to um artists had to go to the towns we couldn't just get on your phone and music you had to go get you couldn't just have access to it so it was a it was it it was a hunt um you had to touch the Tails kiss babies do radio everything like it was just a different ER but who was around like during that time when you who was around like Tupac was did you like meet Tupac Tupac I didn't get to meet Tupac um Tupac passed away what 95 was that yeah right in big in '97 um no I got to see Tupac do a few times in Harlem um that was dope but um not Tupac passed away before we got to get in the record game but I've seen a lot of a lot of artists in my time from a young age to old age we were partying in clubs as teenagers before we even got a record deal and things like that like we were in clubs since high school and [ __ ] like that so any interactions with Big L he was from Harlem right yeah shouts to Big Al Big Al was definitely from Harlem um 139th NFL Big L um I was one of the Cam's uh close friends um actually put cam on a dope record that started to give uh Cam and bloodshed and and her mcgree her was already popping too but guy gave them some notice when it came to R so when you come out like who's who's popping at that time is it git is it mop D it's way before G when we came out I was like Eminem just dropped oh [ __ ] this is Slim Shady not M like Slim Shady I I remember that that was like cam had dropped and Eminem had dropped DMX had dropped Nori had dropped um Big Pun had dropped lud Chris Luda had just started coming out um Nelly Nelly down down baby yeah shouts to coola love um yeah that type of error shouts to shouts to Fat Joe shouts to Buster they was already in it uh Nas was already in it Jay start going crazy that's when he just started taking over with the 1 million 2 million 3 million 4 um yeah very competitive very edgy um lot of the big dogs um had real roots in the streets um especially in the streets of New York so that put that put a real Mystique on everything when it came to the music um all the events with topnotch um it just was a different feel man it was a heavy heavy dope boy era um this was before the drug dealers wanted to be Rappers that's when the rappers wanted to be drug dealers you know what I mean and and that Arrow was was a very dope high impact trenel and Russian it was a was a great error bro I saw an interview you did correct me if I'm wrong I might be paraphrasing but you mentioned a place called the tunnel or something where everybody would be and you guys were [ __ ] [ __ ] in the bathrooms please please describe that manest cuz a place like that couldn't exist right now bro with all this woke [ __ ] I mean yeah and the cancel cult I would say it was probably the greatest Club The Hip hopers have seen and it was during the 90s era it was the Golden Era um in New York they got you had stories about like Studio 54 in that era when everybody used all the biggest of big used to go to Studio 54 well the tunnel was what Studio 54 was to that era to our era and it didn't make so many people and nationalities and genres and just everybody was like a big pumbo all for the sake of the culture you had some of the flyest models to some of the biggest drug dealers biggest gang bangers I mean every former elicit street life you could think of was in the spot along with the biggest artists and rappers and actors and models that you could find into all athletes um it would definitely like that um and was this like per invite or just like anybody could Rock up there nah you couldn't just rock up there for this is '90s entry was like $100 first of all $100 for a club that was the first time we ever heard of it and that was a lot of money back then especially we probably started in '94 going there teenager so $100 was sto a lot of money in New York at the time sneakers wasn't even costing $100 um to get in the club you definitely had to be connected to know somebody or you had to wait on a long line that usually was a block long um they had like an Express line you could pay $100 to get on Express line that'll get you to the door quicker and then you pay your entry fee um streets was blocked off you was a big dog you was able to bring your cars down there I was able to bring like four five of them if I wanted to um yeah the club was just it was different man pull up to the door security they taking people's shoes off they searching your jacket twisting people inside out like they about to go on the Rikers Island I got to I gave security High files I never took my shoes off and not since high school I when we used go in high school we used to get our shoes taken off and things like that make you feel like you going to the cental bookings and [ __ ] like that so what gave you that clout that allowed you to bring four cars in when nobody or you had to be a big dog to bring four cars in when you could just give them a high five instead of removing your shoes and you're young by then like what gives you that CL I was a big dog since a small pup bro J yeah man what gave you those you know credentials at such a young age to suppos all these people cuz Dr Tre was there yeah you putting in four cars not removing shoes I was a good Lord Biden citizen everybody love Jim Jones even even the girls like would you just rock up they say let's go to the bathroom that's it yeah now that well yeah there was a lot of that going on they had a uh the layout was different first of all the club was a block long a whole city block um wow there was like three other four other clubs within the club or spots that look like clubs um the main floor was humongously big the DJ was like a a lifeguard Tower in the middle of the club um you go upstairs they had a VR big V PE upstairs and then go through a door it open up to the bathroom the bathroom was like a unisex Club [ __ ] had a big ass bar in the middle of the bathroom uh bunch of stalls lined up um that [ __ ] was like a hotel inside Lions cocaine everything yeah they was going down a lot of sex was going down there a lot of a lot of drugs was going down in there um yeah the tunnel was definitely uh a landmark to New York City when it comes to the clubs I I definitely um I always think about that club um it did a lot for me in my life um it gave me a lot of imagination when it came to to the culture and the things I was seeing from a young age as to where I want to be and the direction I want to go in yeah we was going there since high school so when you seeing people like Mike Tyson and all these people coming in big cheer on and just having their way as a kid go out got to go to school the next morning you you in school thinking about that [ __ ] like w man this school [ __ ] [ __ ] this school [ __ ] I need some money and I need to go to the tunnel that's all I want to [ __ ] do that's wild man now can you imagine because we in sa right we're looking at all the videos that you guys are pulling out there like we're looking at this lifestyle and then you F Track to 2024 right M and the P didy thing breaks out right I mean i' rather not even to get into that yeah just don't I rather the do I don't you know I mean like it's not it's not my business oh I mean like this you heard God bless it's too much n yeah and it's not me to have an opinion on certain things cuz I ain't perfect I've been through my own [ __ ] in life and I see a lot of people that have even this doing too much just know that I ain't perfect so I choose not to talk on certain [ __ ] that you know what I mean a lot of other people people been talking about I let them keep doing the talk and I got other [ __ ] to work on I'm trying to work on me being a better person yeah I respect I respect that man but were ever part of any gang or like you sounding like the F never hey we don't the F in South Africa man only PS I'm just playing with you yeah I've been affiliated with the bloods in New York City um ENT Tre um yeah so crazy have you ever been to sa like have you ever been to Africa or um I've been to Africa where did you go uh gaban gille damn G to perform there um I went to perform there but uh got some great friends there they actually had ran the country at the time this is before the big yeah yeah overtaking and stuff like that but I had a ball out there I got to go to an island called Pony um that was a dope experience as they took me to the jungles I got to see some of the indigenous people um it was like a a real um life Awakening like and I got to see how also the rich people live out there also like I got to see both sides like that you know what I mean it was it was a great experience I out there for like a week um I haven't been back since but yeah it was dope you never been to South Africa never been to South Africa bro so the reason why I asked that is because like yo bro like American culture has infiltrated South Africa like you can't believe like you know we got people worshiping you guys you know Jim Jones rappers and everything you so we've got rappers who rap just like you and youd say they're like Bloods and Crips but they've never they've never left sa you know cuz that's how influential uh the culture is right but from you when you see or hear that like what do you guys think like do you think is like some [ __ ] like or like leave don't don't follow the gang life you know what I mean oh as far as that is concerned um there's two sides to that this what you do as a gang member that turns it into something that becomes a crime or whatever that end but the Brotherhood part of it is what the most of us joined up for when we coming up in the hood and need that Brotherhood lean on somebody is that type of camaraderie that pretty much stood for and there's a lot of other great attributes that comes with affiliation or you becoming a part of a gang um it gets twisted up because we all come up in these urban communities and our back is against the wall we don't have no opportunities um it's very dormant uh we on top of each other so naturally testosterone testosterone wins in a lot of these situations where these kids find s in bad situations and for that I would tell people to kind of stay away from this type of life um I don't want to oppose my will we all going to experience what we going to experience but I can't tell you the consequences to this type of Lifestyle could be very dear you heard ethal a lot of people don't get to make it where I made it and Escape that lifestyle that could have put me away or could have put me in the dirt I mean so here as a Living testament to tell you that these consequences are terrible the odds on you making it out of that life in a positive manner are very slim I mean but if you are in that life and you taking it as a Brotherhood and try to uplift your brothers I know there's a lot of people around you that are doing a lot of [ __ ] that that that that that's very crazy you know what I mean if you're a part of that and you got the positive minder then you try to uplift your brother and instill some positivity within them because it's very cold out here so I've always been curious bro like so when that when you you you start getting immersed you know or Affiliated in the gang life how does that affect the conversation at home with your parents like your mom your dad and just the domestic you know Dynamics I a't grow my parents I was a grown man since I was like 15 I made my own money since I was like 16 my grandmother left me in high school man I was raising my Sisters by myself in the projects I hustle every I ever got in my life that's why music saved my life I was so grateful to be able to be next to cam and him getting a deal at such a very young age to be able to still be making money off that [ __ ] right now you were U anr for Warner uh music group yeah I was the director of anr for Warner Music Group um years ago uh shouts to Kevin L shouts to Leo Cohen for giving me the opportunity um great opportunity uh I excelled at it extremely very young with a lot of power but didn't understand what I had at hand um didn't have too many people in my corner that were telling me the things that I should have been doing with that type of position as opposed to some type of weird way be hating you know I mean so that's what happened but as you get older you learn you learn and you move on who did you discover while you were in that position uh I would tell you a story I I know I've helped try s uh they come to tra songs that you know today he's always in he's always in we know why no n but he was a young kid at the time and uh they were actually going to cut him from the label we had a big uh um it's like uh one of them uh some events they be doing not the talent shows the uh well was something like that all the artists had to come perform and then they pretty much didn't know that they was on a Cho and block at the time when I was an executive and and he was one of the artists that they were going to cut and I remember Kevin L specifically ask me yo what we should do with him I'm about to cut him I don't know what to do with him and when I heard him uh singing and I saw him perform I was like this is this is one artist you should keep and did that and now we all tra songs on so many dope ass records is it true you could have signed Drake yeah I had a chance to sign uh I had a chance to do business with Drake um through Allan grum blat um when I was doing business at cotch um it was a different era I didn't understand what Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he show me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah understand everybody going at my guy I understand the hate man the hate is so phenomenal it's just how this game go man this game is so tricky man these [ __ ] just like females in this game we ain't going to get into that man there's a lot of uh but wait wait wait so so with Drake like are you are you seeing him perform like try songs or like you just heard of the guy just a conversation Allan called me about signing a kid let me hear some of his music um and I was like the kid know how to rap but I don't know what to do with him his image is crazy and him couple years later heard him on a Wheezy mixtape going crazy I was like wow this kid is about to go wham inside of this business and he sure did and you're know trying to call Weezy like yo man I gotta get that kid or something n he was already signed a young money and jcole did you miss on jcole as well I could have signed J Cole bro jcole was in the studio with me every day and at that point jcole I he's he remind me of a knockoff Drake and not to say it like that but that's who he sounded like he came to my studio every day rapping to these Drake beats rapping like Drake Cadence like Drake he could rap his ass off yeah you heard yeah but it was already a drake out there he had the Caesar it was different like two lightskinn [ __ ] might not K when raing the same but you never know what you got in front of you man you dig and those are lessons I I've took with me to moving forward when I see artists and and I hate artists I always give them more than just hearing just just I got to I got to I gotta try to capture the whole picture I make sure I just don't you mean so I don't miss nothing else because I've missed a few people and I've helped a few people um gain a lot of success in in my time in this industry whether it been by me having a meeting with them or me having influence on them or you know I mean so you know and there's never like any animosity like Jake Cole or Drake never came up to be like yo you could have signed me look at me now bro I mean me and Drake is cool as [ __ ] um I see J Cole I don't think he I mean I don't think that's no he some [ __ ] he might want to keep to himself not to be like that sh the co he not that type of artist he's not a you I mean yeah you did I look I look at as we can see I want to mention an artist who like I'm really fond of like I think this guy's [ __ ] amazing musically talented everything that he touched like turned to Gold who's that uh kid k bro K Cy yeah yeah did you help him with his career yeah I birth K Cy wow J me how so bro bir them nobody would have know who K Cy was at all if I a jump on this remix record but it wasn't even remix he wasn't even a nobody like I tell a story all the time I had a inter used to work for me said he got some dudes that do videos they would like to do a video for me told them come let me see they work they show me their videos the first video they showed me was of the kid Cy record he's on the top of a roof some simple video the record sound more wavy than the opportunity for them to do a video I'm like well if you'll get me the beat to this record I Remix this record and then y'all can shoot the video to that record wow and that's what they did and then um the radio station ripped the record off of YouTube and start playing it at Hot 97 and K Cy was born bro why do you think especially about kid Cy cuz from him when I listen to music right it wasn't really no no other kid Cy record besides the one that I was on yeah man he's not in they don't play his records where I be at at all not to be funny wow bro and we listen to him like all that day and night you know remember only record I know yeah it's the only record I know unless it's like a pop record that everybody know and I and I'm even not paying attention to it but he don't his records don't get played nowhere that i' be at not like that unless I go into a different farm and that's the type of music they playing in one of these funny clubs that play fist pump music and pop music he's not into like you dig like they don't play his music in the clubs I'll be at maybe in Vegas and [ __ ] like that but that's not like they not pumping this [ __ ] in live they not pumping this [ __ ] in Atlanta they not pumping this [ __ ] down the Stafford room or you know what I mean like they I'm not saying nothing like that but I don't hear it in the strip clubs I don't hear like you know what I mean so but he's a very successful person with some of the greats like Kanye to put him in a position to win and [ __ ] like that and I think he's way more better as an actor than he is a musician and that's just my POS that's just my opinion he did I seen him in the movie uh about the race car [ __ ] where he was F the playe like he got a lot of Charisma and [ __ ] like that on on camera for what I could see and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean bro I mean for you as Jim Jones to to see these kids you're introduced to them by an intern and then to hop onto that song it's something selfless you know to just give these unknown kids an opportunity of sharing a song with you where do you think that selflessness comes from how was that unknown kid I'm still an unknown kid anytime I get an opportunity that's an opportunity I should be able to give to somebody else bro the fact that you could even come to our podcast shout out man yeah man you don't even know us exactly what you're saying yeah know us what's his name I don't it's fine you know remember those kids who who did the video for him anyway you know remember I remember like that kids that got the biggest African podcast I'm definitely going to know like them is my guys right family right there appreciate I really mean that that sincerely and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean I I bump in too many people in my life and been across too many people in my journey to actually remember everybody's name but the face and the cause and I mean BR I want to understand right the first time you came up with the concept For Love and Hip Hop where were you what was happening that um that was something like uh me and Christy she had opportunity to do uh her own reality show um and actually fell through and that kind of she was kind of she wanted to do that I can see she was eager about doing that when it fell through kind you know I mean [ __ ] with her mood and [ __ ] like that so so so so so the initial concept what was it was just Chrissy just showing like what's life the initial concept was about she had her own thing going on about a group of women that was supposed to do a reality show had nothing to do with me yeah that [ __ ] fell through she lost that opportunity to end up not going people have been begging me to do reality TV for past couple years at the time and I and you reality TV gold man I refused to do it yeah and then when that happened I was like all right I got I'll do this for you and we'll make it about you and females that have to that are involved with artist such as myself and show what the relationship side is when you're dealing with a high-profile artist and you know what I mean how so that's how that started bro and that thing became a monster super super monster like it's still big till this day bro 100% so do you have like uh ownership in that we we were link a all that you know at that time when maybe the second season we just in a position where we refuse to compromise our dignity for anyone or any dollar and sometimes it be like that you know what I mean um but ain't no stress off my back T my hat to him you no but but but we got to talk about that because you see like this podcast um it's blackowned right it's just me and a couple of other people that are involved in the podcast right and we're always striving for ownership so a lot of um Brands and investors have come to try to buy the podcast and we say know cuz like we believe in ownership and telling the story the way we want to tell it right so what went wrong in that because as a hustler I believe like that's your also end goal MH um it wasn't something that I was just a lot of different layers and [ __ ] like that and I was too worried about doing other things and we had the opportunity to gain all ownership 50% of the whole TV show and all that but it still wasn't worth GE bro that's insane you just let go like that yeah bro it's your brain child bro there is no Love and& Hip Hop without you bro I still got a brain you heard yeah those are for people that don't have a brain that lack creativity people that steal things from you lack what you don't have remember that yeah whether it's money whether it's creativity whatever it is they lack what you don't have ultimately they steal from you you heard I mean we didn't even know C beef if it wasn't for Love and& Hip Hop right yeah yeah yeah definitely yeah bro you gave birth to so many many people man like VI their careers that's the god in me that's why I'm always going to be good yeah she man so any other shows that you're working on like in the pipeline that you want to do I was telling you I working on um a late night show a late night um a late night variety show live in studio audience hopefully we'll be filming in about 40 to 60 days um beautiful concept I do I do believe people going enjoy the show um like I was saying I can't do um a podcast is too personal for me and [ __ ] like that and me watching these podcasts um dealing with these artists me myself don't have the temperament for it you know what I mean um I [ __ ] I T my hat to y'all to have to deal with artists such as myself cuz you never know what type of mood they going to come in you know what I me some of these artists have a air to them where they feel like they better than most and they would never sit and have tea with the with the maintenance guy you heard me myself me going to maintenance guy going to smoke blunts before I get on stage [Music] I live my life and and and currently uh before we let you go man what do you think about the state of hip-hop cuz like statistically numbers wise it's not looking good man e beats has played all over New York now there's now the pianos this is this is what they want you to do this is how to get us to go against each other it's all under the same culture umbrella it's afro music ref I'm a piano I'm a piano explain that what do you mean by that bro yeah R&B what do you mean by that ultimately it's all from under the same origin and creativity of the same person from the same colors is all our thing n but let's be honest Jimmy hip-hop hasn't involved bro when I was listening to Eminem what do you want mean what do you mean hip-hop hasn't evolved you guys are still rapping about the same stuff it don't you you missing the point of what hip-hop is yeah hip-hop has evolved to a point that you can be the music genres that you're told them about can be noticed you think that if there was a hip hop that I'm a piano would be noticed or afro Beach would be noticed think about that and not to take nothing away from y because you always have culture and yes that music might be big within the continent of Africa yeah right but to cross over to American Fame and commercialism you don't think that the hip-hop culture played a big part in that that's that that's a different argument now you want to have a different argument I'm telling you the semantics of where we going with this you dig like you talking about uh the the hip hop music is damn percentage that's how they want us to think when it's really not cuz we all uplifting each other you heard you think that the country music that's going on in the black people winning is not because of the hip-hop culture no no no I think no one is disputing that however so then when you say hip-hop numbers are down and damn for who no I'm talking about I know what you're talking about but damn for who tell me who it's down for because I'm still making the money I make yeah I do believe there's still a lot of artist that's making a shitload of money that they make I don't think it went down for them yeah you know what I mean but I understand what you're talking about they say the numbers and then rock and roll genre might be up like I don't really you heard like that's I'm into this business you heard and it's always up for us you heard cuz this is a business we make money out of nothing it's never a downside to this okay and and that's why I'm saying I think we're having two different conversations here cuz the conversation I'm having is I'm having I'm having right is that in as much as he's saying yeah the numbers are down because they orchestrated and whatever I get that right but also that's why I asked do you think Hip-hop has evolved cuz I grew up on hip-hop right and the same things um quote unquote you guys were rapping about in the '90s how can hipop how can hip hop evolved in the same thing that Africa been Africa been going on since the '90s aren't y going still going through the same thing we are huh we are so how could the music evolve when the music ref the time ah okay get you real stories what you want us to rap about [ __ ] that that we don't have ah we talk about [ __ ] we dream about all the time that's the good The Good Life the colorin the Ros we talk about but the truth is how the music going to change when our position hasn't changed when we still going through the same [ __ ] we've been going through okay and y'all being from Africa should know that more than we know that yeah that's facts that's fact go about that own Cod yeah yeah yeah yeah you know are bro that's a valid fact but how do you feel man like you've come from an era where you guys when what you you said in your raps I mean evolved as far as dition as far as what we rap about cuz we still stuck in the same place but as a business it has evolved to one of big time yeah yeah biggest big time money making machines you can attach yourself to this made some of the richest individuals whether you're the rapper the lawyer the executive like that's true you know what I mean the supply chain but then I think that's why you know when you get the likes of a wz coming out and Kendrick Lamar they stand out like a sore thumb because like they are rapping about but that's what music is about to stand out for those who that want to look like everybody they don't get nowhere why you think Dip set was so successful sucessful yeah because we stood out on purpose we don't want to look like or H or sound like no one else m we want yall to above all see us when we walk in the building and hear us when we get on that [ __ ] mic you heard why would you guys the diplomats I never like where did that come from the diplomats the name the diplomats yeah we diplomats oh ah okay that sounded cool no we diplomats we are Harlem diplomats and we take it as that you heard we go to the Embassy when we land in countries you heard all right okay okay okay I I sort of get that bro so in the business and how you still making money right now like from music just like how is it royalties damn you asking a lot of questions bro no I want to know bro I'm so I've got so many questions I want to ask you bro I'll tell you this music is supposed to be used so you can make as much ancillary dollars as you can because the music ain't promised everybody 15 minutes of fame ranges from a small 15 minutes of fame to a run like we having within that minute the 15 minutes the fame you better do a lot of other things to secure your bag because music is not going to be thing you be able to get paid off forever unless you're the DRS and the J that's not even 1% that's you know what I mean so you think about that so you better have some hustle you better learn how to you better have some business sense you better put your credit in order you better do a few things to secure you if you are artist [ __ ] leverage powerful penda yeah man how do you feel man when these kids these days wrap up about you know trying to act tough and rap about stuff they never done like you guys red about stuff you lived I mean I do believe a lot of these kids are going through a lot of [ __ ] that we went through and then a lot of the kids are talking about [ __ ] that they see but most of the kids are all growing up in the same community that all of that [ __ ] is going on so who tells them they don't have the right to talk about [ __ ] that they're not doing when that's still [ __ ] that they're seeing oh sure Ah that's powerful but the problem I have a problem when they rapping like they did it but they just R from somebody else's Vantage Point understand that but most of these artists that you've seen in the game some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I pretty firm in his in in his music that I'm a believer that he did some of that [ __ ] he can talk about just me I don't know you possibilities are possibilities but some things just seem correct you know mean I can't tell you for sure cuz it is music you know what I mean but some things seem correct [ __ ] man bro you got to come out to man you got to you know we haven't had a proper uh hip-hop concert in sa like since 50 N since you are come on back to the city does concerts man ah those are for old people empd the bigest artist in South Africa right now Hip-Hop Hip-Hop uh there's a guy called nastyc but nesty came here he doesn't know know you f poopa who's that nah F poopa Nigerian West African artist massive he used to pop not now for real still massive bigger than like ber boyo still it's different type of music oh stadiums is 50 60,000 people like what is this following this gu what's his name f poop F poop I don't know him bro he's from Nigeria yeah yeah yeah yeah Nigerian Prett pretty big yeah humongous bro how big was was 50 Cent bro like during his Reign man like how big was 50 Cent [ __ ] retardedly big it wasn't nothing bigger than him was Drake before Drake was dring he was oh [ __ ] he did it like it was like 50 was on a run that he never even touched the club bro like [ __ ] never seen him in the club he only did Arenas I never knew too many artist that just did that you dig like the [ __ ] was super massive every [ __ ] Rec he came out with was was going platinum and I'm just telling you the facts you heard and I always got to speak factual no matter how I feel about a person the [ __ ] was on top Super on top it was no way to knock him off his d i remember Jay-Z dropped the diss track on you did you guys resolve that beef I think you were not happy with him as the president of De jam oh man um we never really had a beef um we had some feuds back and forth through the situations that were going on over other people um and me being who I am I had to hold my ground um but to know that he actually talked about me in multiple of his records mean that I was pretty big in his eyes you dig true true cuz I didn't hear him talk about too many people in his career and if he did talk you talk about you on the record that meant something you know what I mean and I was then so for me that I I I took that like what it was like you dig like yeah J doesn't respond to take the time out to say my name you heard if I'm if I'm not that big of a deal to you you would never ever a am I am I right talk about a person you heard true it's it's a form of respect and ackowledge 100% am I right in saying a lot of [ __ ] are scared of Jay-Z bro cuz we interviewed Dam Ian I don't I don't know I'm not a lot of [ __ ] you heard I'm a man so I couldn't I I couldn't tell you that you heard I ain't scared to nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that that that dentist yeah the dentist got me there you heard you can walk in you could walk we about to fight right now you a dentist walk in you got it you got it like you got it bow down you got it I don't want no smoke let me get out of here M fact word Jimmy before you go man uh what beefs did you have so you had something beef with Jay-Z right no man I just told you we had some feuds stemming from that's beef bro stemming from other things that going on um my problem like it was all part of Us coming up in the game and things were happening we were signing a Rockefeller cam was sign a Rockefeller actually then we got opportunity to Diplomat records um the split between uh Jay and Dame came um artist took sides some took the J side some took the the Dame side which side were you on we was on the Dame side OB Dash yeah Dame Dash that's do you think Dame Dash is misunderstood bro huh you think Dame Dash is misunderstood um too smart for his own good I get that yeah if you had the opportunity again you sometimes being the smartest person in the room could be held against you especially when you want everybody to know that you're the smartest person in the room yeah yeah yeah and I get given a second chance would you still side with Dam never you wouldn't never whoa I never signed a d at all that was no no no like sided with him took his side oh give a second chance I wouldn't have sided with none of them I would we would haveed our [ __ ] business but you learned that with age yeah you heard we had no business butting into that because it wasn't a street beef and this wasn't some [ __ ] that had to do with us ultimately we were holding our [ __ ] down and [ __ ] like that but business-wise if we would if we knew what we knew now we would let them get into that they self y'all can handle that because we got records to put out and music to make and we got our own record label to run you dig and this my hinder what we got going on by us taking sides and that's why I tell people now even when people seeing all the Diplomat [ __ ] like y bro don't don't get in to taking sides with me and my bro because you never know how that might end up and if it end up to a point where we do figure out our situation then I'm looking at you funny now me and you got forever you heard you dig and there are plenty of people that did that and plenty people that didn't and plenty people that showed the same amount of love that he showed to me that it showed to cam when we were going through our imaginary situations and [ __ ] like that cuz it's all imaginary when you know you can figure figure it out now it's a saying that like don't just be in people's business when especially when they've beef and take sides cuz and I I had to learn that a lot I had took me a long time to learn that because of how we come up in the Cod that they supposedly treat us in teach us in the street and [ __ ] like that but sometimes that's not the smallest thing that we can do and then uh push a t did you ever beef with him nah that was some [ __ ] that we was on record um he did some [ __ ] I did some [ __ ] you dig that was it I never followed that I didn't even know did you know there's a pusher T me I ain't got no just know I don't know I know you're from I know you're from Africa and [ __ ] like that but people don't play with me yeah for real and I don't I don't play with people this ain't no playground you heard this is the street it's two ways don't get caught up in a yellow line it's going to be hard to cross bro yeah you heard no I don't trust me I'm from Africa but I saw what happened at the airport so that [ __ ] escalated yeah [ __ ] that was self-defense man God yo bro it looked like that guy was just messing with you bro I wish that could have never happened cuz I was trying to avoid that by all cause but [ __ ] happened sometime man you dig and definitely not not going to allow anybody do anything to me at all bro when I saw that video right like I don't know I just met you today right but I saw when you lifted that guy from the escalator threw him down he literally just went on survival mode bro like it's like there was a button that you switched on and you just like I don't [ __ ] care but yeah yeah no I mean no that's a button that I choose not to push you heard yeah exactly like you can go there quickly I choose to show restraint for a lot of reasons in my life and sometimes it's hard to you dig but where I'm at in life right now I choose positivity or all the other things that come out my way because I know how it is to be negative I was once that negative person that was very aggressive and ready to do something to to you over the minimal alistic of things and [ __ ] like that so I'm blessed to be here to try to be able to show restraint and so so the guy so the guy at the airport you guys on the same plane yeah we on the same plane so you don't have a private jet no I don't have a private jet I'm not a rich man come on Jimmy you made so much money over the years but anyway so you're in the plane what's he what's this guy saying to you like um I don't know man just [ __ ] happens I know just the started from the plane just know that what you see happen on so it starts on the plane you restrain yourself you're like all right cool my dog say whatever you want to say yeah when he gets to the airport I mean the escalator that's when I think he starts hitting you or something right yeah something like that he tried to do something like that and that's what we see man but like I said this is not something that I want to glorify it's not you think he knows who you are um if if he didn't he know now no I'm I'm sorry see sorry cuz some people just provoke I believe he was he was trolling a little bit and things like that which is cool you I mean I'm if if you in New York not time 10 you do know who I am so you know I believe it was a bit of that but God bless man hopefully that they all right hopefully the old man um cool you dig like are you spiritual cuz you mentioned God a lot man yeah I'm very spiritual very spiritual very spiritual I've been my whole family is spiritual and what does that mean in an American sense cuz um us as African for me it means a lot of different things um I was told what the church was as a young age as they drag you to church every Sunday your grandmother your moms and your family and things like that and you really don't understand what that is from that young but as you get older and you go through certain things and you make it through certain things you understand that there is a God and everybody has a relationship with their God different and sometimes going to church doesn't mean that you love your God any less or he loves you any less you dig and you say spiritual I'm very spiritual I say my prayers as much as I can sometime two three four times in a day you dig man doesn't take away from what I do and who I am because I'm still in the line for everything else everybody is in but I know every day that I'm able to wake up and every day I'm able to make a dollar and every day I'm able to keep living the life that I am I should be thankful you heard cuz that's not just me that's a higher vibration that's definitely a God you dig and I'm well aware that I've escaped many things in life that Lord knows I should not be here but then again I should be here cuz he put here for a reason he gives his toughest battles to his strongest people what the Bible say you heard and I've made it through some very tough battles which are minimal to some of the people that I had next to me in their battles you know what I mean so it's like we all got to figure it out Jim Jones thank you so much man and thanks to God for bringing you here man definitely I appreciate for making time for us bro thank you man we appreciate you tired when you got you I appreciate the fact that you could even make it man got any last question yeah man bro you said you've gone through some tough battles and you mentioned how you lost your dad at like 26 but also that you you pretty much raised yourself from the age of 15 you know from that relationship or lack of it like has it affected how you father your children 100% this made me the best father I could be but me my relationship with my father was always a great one even though he wasn't there because every day he wasn't I love them even more I wasn't one of them kids that was bitter you dig I understand that everybody went through something and at that age what he was going through there was a lot of drug addiction and I knew that from a very young age I understood what drugs was and how they were tearing up my family I never held that against my father and I was just blessed able to get back with him before he passed away so he could see that his son was making something out of himself at that time I was already signed to her uh we think we just got the Rockefeller deal so it was a very big deal for me to be able to get back with my father to show him that me somebody that you should be proud of and I know him looking down right now got be like damn I did that so you know and that's how I feel but then in turn TR here my son I don't you know I mean like I just you know mean I pride myself on making sure that I I turned my son into somebody that was way better than I could ever be you oh man yeah that's my guy shout out to you man is your son still wearing Crocs to you br he's a Croc guy you heard yeah Crocs for Life bro Crocs for Life jumping out the beam with a fresh paer Crocs on I don't want to stand him Jimmy before you go your top five rappers all time my top five rappers of all you got to give us your top five bro yeah Tupac definitely Jay-Z Drake um Drake he not like us by default of course um rock cam no Eminem No No whoa not even big you from NY and not to take nothing away from him he's extremely nice it's retardedly nice when it comes to rap but I listen to artists that kind of you know I mean do something for the life that I live and kind of what I've been through and most of these artist or artist that I'm talking about people that you know what I mean like [ __ ] better stop hating on my boy Drake all of a sudden all this Drake land I get it I get it you ain't like us let's not do that let's not forget the 15 years he been spanking [ __ ] around this [ __ ] all all all over this [ __ ] all the alley he been giving most of these artists that are now seeming to be turning on them let's you know let's not some of them gave him their best hits let's not forget the big picture here and [ __ ] like but what the hip-hop culture and this game is built on competition so I yeah but what is he with it you heard you better put your best foot forward but what has Drake given back to the culture oh that you so love here we go um what is he giving back to the culture I seen him take a lot of people on tour and turn them even richer than they already was I I seen him give a lot of people hits that they would have never had if he wouldn't have got on a record things for the culture that wouldn't have happened in turn records that we would have never knew about him to record that the culture love and things like that I mean he's not from here Canada from the hood I don't believe he owes America too much but the monster that give back to where he's from maybe we should ask about what has he done in Canada giving back to his community as opposed to what he giving back to the culture of the United States when this is not where he's from and I think that's the Divide right there now if we talk about what he's done in Canada and if it's not up to par then maybe we can talk about oh you dig but that's I think that's for the people of Canada you dig like yeah cuz but it's the people of America in the hood who made him of course you heard about but that he didn't grw up in America he didn't grew up here you heard so if you was an artist from Africa yeah like boy yeah do you think bnab boy has responsibility what do Niger of United stes n I'm taking it back home bro super duper big yes but that's what people then will call a culture vulture cuz you come into a space you know do what the people of that space do benefit from them is is is you understand what we doing like it's bro it's not because he's not take so he's not taking benab boy is Nigerian it's a Nigerian culture that is now popular in America so Drake took an American culture and enriched himself but what he's saying is that he doesn't owe anything to America cuz he's not from yet right okay right yeah I mean [ __ ] he's got no obligation Fair argument he got no obligation Fair argument yeah like he lived if he lived like I don't I don't that's how I see it you heard like that's how I see it you dig but all these [ __ ] we talking about are filthy filthy filthy rich off the opinions of men you heard what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never but what I'm just trying to tell you is how this game is played yeah you heard yeah geez man the more we talk the more they get paid the loser still gets paid too if there is a loser I don't think there's a loser when they all getting Millions off of this [ __ ] I don't think I mean like and I understand end all be all in the whole circle of it but I'm I've been in this [ __ ] for so long I'm miss you can see the politics of really get you to understand of what's really going on and [ __ ] like that this [ __ ] don't pay me a dollar to talk about it yeah hey man how tight you with Joe Bon he calls us those African guys with numbers oh yeah yeah yeah Jo this my guy buts what's up man he cool yeah he's an instigator definely know how to get under people's skin yeah I've known Joan for so long [ __ ] like that um I'm proud of him put himself in his position a whole new Lane to make a shitload of money um where it stem from the culture this what I'm talking about all the ancillary things that you need to get going on if are a artist of some type of success you got to use that to get where you want look at Joe used his startom and rap no matter what it was to able to finesse a whole new Lane of podcasting that true he's pretty big in damn near one of the forefathers of it from our culture right y'all started before him or after him we started after him but now we have more numbers than him hey doesn't matter no numbers do matter I mean no J and get num I'm cool with that but you won't be never be the considered the forefather of this whole no no no no no no no you dig 100% yeah it's Jo Joan numbers is cool I'm cool with that you get paid and I know what's a race you might be number one you heard yeah yeah but you still never be the forefather always going to have that under him like I've created this Lane for your how I feel about Ling hip hop yeah of course I got that under my belt that's mine y can never say that was yours at all yeah okay how much money you made off of it and [ __ ] like that at the end of the day you it's mine you heard Still My still mine so we always ask anybody any guest that we get on the show in closing what do you want to be remembered as man when it's all said and done I want I want to be remembered I want I want them to know that I gave more than I took because I was able to take a lot in my time amen just like that sh hey man I wish you put me on love and& hip-hop bro they got the African love of Hip Hop they got Jamaican love of Hip Hop they got they got any type of Love of Hip Hop we need the South African love of Hip Hop thanks Jim man shout out thank you bro I appreciate you man thank you we appreciate podcast and chill we out of here man boom peace welcome to Black excellenc do not fear for if you do just sip on some Grand and if you still do ask ourselves what would M [Music] do when they ask you do not fear for if you do just say an TV this is the the medicine of censorship this is the pill which one is that one podcast and chill	right now I mean some nice are better than others but been doing it so long it's kind of like the the bare minimum for us to do in Miami just having fun but it still work at the same time like every every I'm I'm not just going out partying for no reason ni like that was we knew what we was kind of getting into we wanted to film a video so we knew we was going to ramp it up a bit take it to the to the highest form going crazy as we could but that actually happened to fall on a big weekend um and one of my dudes was celebrating so everything kind of happened for a reason but yeah Miami could take you for take you for a few a few trips man like okay so so so me and you we get in the car right I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm in Miami I hate you cuz you got a house there you stay there right yeah I got I got I got cribs there so I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm by the strip you know that Miami strip right yeah yeah yeah I mean see that's the thing about Miami when you come to visit Miami that's where people are know at like the strip and things like that I guess stand by Collins and ocean driveing all that people that live there don't really do the strip like	8	6	4	right now I mean some nice are better than others but been doing it so long it's kind of like the the bare minimum for us to do in Miami just having fun but it still work at the same time like every every I'm I'm not just going out partying for no reason ni like that was we knew what we was kind of getting into we wanted to film a video so we knew we was going to ramp it up a bit take it to the to the highest form going crazy as we could but that actually happened to fall on a big weekend um and one of my dudes was celebrating so everything kind of happened for a reason but yeah Miami could take you for take you for a few a few trips man like okay so so so me and you we get in the car right I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm in Miami I hate you cuz you got a house there you stay there right	yeah I got I got I got cribs there so I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm by the strip you know that Miami strip right yeah yeah yeah I mean see that's the thing about Miami when you come to visit Miami that's where people are know at like the strip and things like that I guess stand by Collins and ocean driveing all that people that live there don't really do the strip like	6,4,5	7,5,3	6	4	5	7	5	3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr730VmL-lk	4,054	rr730VmL-lk	2024-06-27 00:00:00	like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano no well Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he showed me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah just understand everybody going there my guy I understand the hate exactly what you're saying yeah bro what's his name I don't it's fine you remember those some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I ain't scared of nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that the dentist yeah dentist got me there what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never [Music] [Music] yo Jimmy you do not look like you want to be here bro like someone forced you to be it's like you have to do that par they're the biggest podcast in Africa you have to be there I never look like I want to be nowhere man you got to part of me but congratulations to yall having the biggest podcast in Africa that that that's very big Africa being one of the biggest continents in the world a lot of people over there shut up man why you so tired bro crazy weekend I've been working all weekend shows different states traveling Planes Trains automobiles you know how I be a little bit too much partying yeah road kill it's tough but what's up how y'all feeling I'm good bro I literally saw um I saw your video uh yesterday for your new single the one you shot in Miami two turn temp yeah yeah how you feel about it bro that [ __ ] is lit man looks like our Vibe bro cuz we've been to Miami myself and and my partner but we never like experienced the Miami night life we were playing in Florida yeah we're DJing in Florida but two South Africans like the diaspora then West Palm Beach as well yeah DJ also yeah like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano what it's a genre it's called a piano no no cuz I'm a piano even you heard like you saw he did the whole Keys thing it has nothing to do with the piano that's where it started but has nothing to do with it these days when when I met charlot man he said the exact same thing he's like oh so you're a podcaster I'm like yeah and then you DJs I'm like no I play I'm a Pian like you're a Pianist man you one talented [ __ ] n it's a genre of music man what kind of genre is that like it's like slowed down house music with a lot of s that African influence that's the only way I can describe it so it's a it's a mix of a marriage house yeah a marriage of house music which originated here at Chicago and stuff and then we slowed it down created a sub genre called guo where guys were sort of rapping but very minimalist raps called guo then the kids were born like in the 2000s late '90s then created a whole meshup of those two genres and it's called Piano cuz a a lot of Americans think it's um afro beats it's not afro beats yeah a lot of the hence I avoided saying afro beats cuz AFR beats is from Nigeria and amap piano is far from afro beat afro beat borrows from am piano now where is amap piano originated from South Africa from the hoods from the Cassis yeah but when I when I was looking at your video bro uh the only thing in my mind was like bro what's a night like out with Jim Jones CU that [ __ ] look lit there [ __ ] everywhere bro um please please describe a night out in Miami with Jim so let's say we going to Miami right now I mean some nice are better than others but been doing it so long it's kind of like the the bare minimum for us to do in Miami just having fun but it still work at the same time like every every I'm I'm not just going out partying for no reason ni like that was we knew what we was kind of getting into we wanted to film a video so we knew we was going to ramp it up a bit take it to the to the highest form going crazy as we could but that actually happened to fall on a big weekend um and one of my dudes was celebrating so everything kind of happened for a reason but yeah Miami could take you for take you for a few a few trips man like okay so so so me and you we get in the car right I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm in Miami I hate you cuz you got a house there you stay there right yeah I got I got I got cribs there so I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm by the strip you know that Miami strip right yeah yeah yeah I mean see that's the thing about Miami when you come to visit Miami that's where people are know at like the strip and things like that I guess stand by Collins and ocean driveing all that people that live there don't really do the strip like that like you just you dig people congregate usually at night time and all the spots that usually go on down there um okay so we got security obviously you got to roll around with security right um yeah I mean that' be the safest thing for me to do so we get out the cut with security when you get to the bouncers are they letting us in cuz it's Jim Jones or are they checking our IDs cuz they've been checking our IDs just to buy beer here bro Che ID everywhere yeah everywhere yeah no I I don't think I produced my ID in since I was a teenager at clubs but yeah you won't need your ID when you with me so we walking in right yeah we going to get in oh do we have a section do we they going to give us a section VIP yeah they going to give us a section we going to get some bottles and let the night ensue got this thing called Power Hour you go to the club maybe like 2:45 to 3:45 in and out no sweat so what's the what's the purpose of that exercise the Power Hour yeah like why would you be in the cloud for an hour why would I be in a club for 4 hours it's Fu I mean I've been part I've been partying since I've been 14 I've been making money to party since I've been 18 I'm kind of burnt out so at this point I try to wait till the club is at the most popping or lest moment which is usually that hour right there and I get to enjoy everything that happened tonight and leave out of there and not be all burnt out what what does your wife say bro cuz you're married man you're surrounded by all these girls like you know I mean I'm going to worry about the women yeah is minimal to the money worry about the money more than anything so so a woman doesn't like give you grief when you come home I yeah you get you get grief all the time if you in a relationship no matter what you do if you had a job on Wall Street you get home you're going to get grief no around it you heard yeah there's women everywhere unless you work in the LGBT Club then you know I mean even there you still going to go home and get like it's no way around it you're going to get you know I mean like yeah so you've never had like been home and you had to explain like yo no man I was just doing music video it's just work like I don't know that good you going to explain yourself in every relationship and things like that I got a good woman at home who understands a job I have and things like that so for the most part but for the most part I'm a very responsible respectable person when when I'm in the streets and when I do have to interact with females and things like that yeah anyway H ladies and gentlemen welcome to another special edition of podcasting chill so CU yeah I am here we're chilling with the [ __ ] Legend Kings of Harlem please make some noise for Jim Jones Jim I gotta say bro I gotta say bro I'm going to be honest with you when I find that your name was GMO geloo gelo I'm like I'm like Jim Jones losing some G points here man what the [ __ ] is that I'm Puerto Rican and a rubian my pops is Puerto Rican the word gelo means William in English is a Spanish Spanish name cuz you know what I was thinking I was thinking that guy who does the show late night you know the short guy who does like the interviews with um this late night comedian man what are the late night shows oh man not uh bad with these oh gosh the late night guy bro uhri or something not Corin O'Brien no not Trevor Noah the other American guy man like uh old new no he's like jimm Kimel Jimmy Kimel jimy he's got that he's got that short guy his name is julo oh I don't I don't I don't got got me messed up I don't even really watch TV like that bro okay I'll be out chasing the money I ain't even got time to do that and if and if I do got some time I'm trying to get a little bit of rest or I'm thinking about money [ __ ] is crucial out here right now you better get to your dollar a lot of [ __ ] about to happen and if you ain't got no coins boy you going to be [ __ ] up you ever been to uh Puerto Rico yeah I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times yeah but business not for the Heritage part of it so like you don't know where like your your your parents were at Familiar of the place where my father's from but I never really got to do the whole go to give with my family understand the roots understand you know I mean like I didn't get to get to that part of it but I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times you find like that's important like to know you it's definitely important I had this um I did an interview not too long ago about um how important the roots are and get to know where my family from know I mean so we'll start to do that pretty soon so so so your dad you know you know your dad right yeah he's passed away oh okay God bless rest in peace what happened to him he passed away yeah like was it um medical thing or yeah natural causes oh damn like when you young or um maybe when I was uh 23 24 oh damn bro SED to hear that man maybe 26 right before my son passed right before my God bless right before my son Bor bro but you like 47 right now I look good for 47y old man no homo you know what I mean thank you very much like what was what's keeping you looking so good is it the yoga yeah a lot of yoga a lot of Pilates I stay in shape um I'm very uh very big on Fitness um work out like five six times a week um it's one of the best ways to stay young and have better chances of living a long life is that why you do it or maybe there's other purpose like you know a lot of people are in gym for their mental health I mean it's very it's very it's very therapeutic I will say that but my main goal is to look good of course but to give me better chances of living forever bro so how you got into rap um I don't know correct me if I'm wrong right but you used to skip church and go to the train station to to rap like no I never skipped Church to go on the train station and rap I skipped Church to go to the train station and go play video games and run the streets and do everything a bad little kid did from the streets of hollow when we was like S8 and n and things like that I don't know if you know about anything about the subway system in New York but that's the pathway system that get you to all five burrows and we definitely was on the subway which maybe we shouldn't have been but we was a little uh loose um for me rapping actually rapping didn't start later on in life to actually uh C and um they I got a deal and things like that and that was the first time me myself really thought about actually raing cuz I'll be honest with you like um dipet I don't really know much about dipet however I know about you guys individually like Cameron old boy like one of my favorite songs uh jul sna had hear that that was Cameron and Jules and jwes he both was on he both old boy and heon yeah why don't you jump on those tracks man those tracks are massive they was already done I was there for the making of both of them incredible tracks yeah and then how did dipit start start like how did you guys start the whole movement um organically kiss him Harem gr up together um talented kids Cam and Mason BL sh was they already was doing music um Everybody gradu graduated high school I didn't get to go to college they went to college they got kicked out they got kicked out they come moved in with me from that that was a uh foundation for them to D into the music you've been in the game for like 20 30 odd years right been in the game for since 1997 how would you describe the different eras of like um hip-hop right especially now cuz um obviously we all know about the Kendrick Lamar song they're not like us but I didn't know how big it was until I landed in in in America and it's like it's like a movement the video yeah it's like huge it's massive bro yeah it's a big record Kendrick did that shout out to Kendrick shout out to my boy Drake but what do you think about like the evolution of hip-hop in all the different areas you've been a part of what do you mean what do I think about it it's a great thing to be a part of something that um you could only dream of everybody doesn't get a chance to be in this game um I've been fortunate enough to be here for so many genres and errors and seen so many people come and go I've watched the smallest artist to the biggest artist who you thow will be here forever and going um I got stories for days I can tell you about um how I feel about it I feel great I feel blessed you know what I mean I feel lucky this [ __ ] don't it's not promised and for me to still be here is definitely a blessing so in the 90s what was the vibe like man like like what in the 90s as far as what in hip-hop yeah it was it was different um 90s was a great era um one of my favorite errors um that was the era we first first came outside um started to get out deal uh very aggressive era uh no social media um cell phones were just being born um everything that you seen you was something that you could grab on to um artists had to go to the towns we couldn't just get on your phone and music you had to go get you couldn't just have access to it so it was a it was it it was a hunt um you had to touch the Tails kiss babies do radio everything like it was just a different ER but who was around like during that time when you who was around like Tupac was did you like meet Tupac Tupac I didn't get to meet Tupac um Tupac passed away what 95 was that yeah right in big in '97 um no I got to see Tupac do a few times in Harlem um that was dope but um not Tupac passed away before we got to get in the record game but I've seen a lot of a lot of artists in my time from a young age to old age we were partying in clubs as teenagers before we even got a record deal and things like that like we were in clubs since high school and [ __ ] like that so any interactions with Big L he was from Harlem right yeah shouts to Big Al Big Al was definitely from Harlem um 139th NFL Big L um I was one of the Cam's uh close friends um actually put cam on a dope record that started to give uh Cam and bloodshed and and her mcgree her was already popping too but guy gave them some notice when it came to R so when you come out like who's who's popping at that time is it git is it mop D it's way before G when we came out I was like Eminem just dropped oh [ __ ] this is Slim Shady not M like Slim Shady I I remember that that was like cam had dropped and Eminem had dropped DMX had dropped Nori had dropped um Big Pun had dropped lud Chris Luda had just started coming out um Nelly Nelly down down baby yeah shouts to coola love um yeah that type of error shouts to shouts to Fat Joe shouts to Buster they was already in it uh Nas was already in it Jay start going crazy that's when he just started taking over with the 1 million 2 million 3 million 4 um yeah very competitive very edgy um lot of the big dogs um had real roots in the streets um especially in the streets of New York so that put that put a real Mystique on everything when it came to the music um all the events with topnotch um it just was a different feel man it was a heavy heavy dope boy era um this was before the drug dealers wanted to be Rappers that's when the rappers wanted to be drug dealers you know what I mean and and that Arrow was was a very dope high impact trenel and Russian it was a was a great error bro I saw an interview you did correct me if I'm wrong I might be paraphrasing but you mentioned a place called the tunnel or something where everybody would be and you guys were [ __ ] [ __ ] in the bathrooms please please describe that manest cuz a place like that couldn't exist right now bro with all this woke [ __ ] I mean yeah and the cancel cult I would say it was probably the greatest Club The Hip hopers have seen and it was during the 90s era it was the Golden Era um in New York they got you had stories about like Studio 54 in that era when everybody used all the biggest of big used to go to Studio 54 well the tunnel was what Studio 54 was to that era to our era and it didn't make so many people and nationalities and genres and just everybody was like a big pumbo all for the sake of the culture you had some of the flyest models to some of the biggest drug dealers biggest gang bangers I mean every former elicit street life you could think of was in the spot along with the biggest artists and rappers and actors and models that you could find into all athletes um it would definitely like that um and was this like per invite or just like anybody could Rock up there nah you couldn't just rock up there for this is '90s entry was like $100 first of all $100 for a club that was the first time we ever heard of it and that was a lot of money back then especially we probably started in '94 going there teenager so $100 was sto a lot of money in New York at the time sneakers wasn't even costing $100 um to get in the club you definitely had to be connected to know somebody or you had to wait on a long line that usually was a block long um they had like an Express line you could pay $100 to get on Express line that'll get you to the door quicker and then you pay your entry fee um streets was blocked off you was a big dog you was able to bring your cars down there I was able to bring like four five of them if I wanted to um yeah the club was just it was different man pull up to the door security they taking people's shoes off they searching your jacket twisting people inside out like they about to go on the Rikers Island I got to I gave security High files I never took my shoes off and not since high school I when we used go in high school we used to get our shoes taken off and things like that make you feel like you going to the cental bookings and [ __ ] like that so what gave you that clout that allowed you to bring four cars in when nobody or you had to be a big dog to bring four cars in when you could just give them a high five instead of removing your shoes and you're young by then like what gives you that CL I was a big dog since a small pup bro J yeah man what gave you those you know credentials at such a young age to suppos all these people cuz Dr Tre was there yeah you putting in four cars not removing shoes I was a good Lord Biden citizen everybody love Jim Jones even even the girls like would you just rock up they say let's go to the bathroom that's it yeah now that well yeah there was a lot of that going on they had a uh the layout was different first of all the club was a block long a whole city block um wow there was like three other four other clubs within the club or spots that look like clubs um the main floor was humongously big the DJ was like a a lifeguard Tower in the middle of the club um you go upstairs they had a VR big V PE upstairs and then go through a door it open up to the bathroom the bathroom was like a unisex Club [ __ ] had a big ass bar in the middle of the bathroom uh bunch of stalls lined up um that [ __ ] was like a hotel inside Lions cocaine everything yeah they was going down a lot of sex was going down there a lot of a lot of drugs was going down in there um yeah the tunnel was definitely uh a landmark to New York City when it comes to the clubs I I definitely um I always think about that club um it did a lot for me in my life um it gave me a lot of imagination when it came to to the culture and the things I was seeing from a young age as to where I want to be and the direction I want to go in yeah we was going there since high school so when you seeing people like Mike Tyson and all these people coming in big cheer on and just having their way as a kid go out got to go to school the next morning you you in school thinking about that [ __ ] like w man this school [ __ ] [ __ ] this school [ __ ] I need some money and I need to go to the tunnel that's all I want to [ __ ] do that's wild man now can you imagine because we in sa right we're looking at all the videos that you guys are pulling out there like we're looking at this lifestyle and then you F Track to 2024 right M and the P didy thing breaks out right I mean i' rather not even to get into that yeah just don't I rather the do I don't you know I mean like it's not it's not my business oh I mean like this you heard God bless it's too much n yeah and it's not me to have an opinion on certain things cuz I ain't perfect I've been through my own [ __ ] in life and I see a lot of people that have even this doing too much just know that I ain't perfect so I choose not to talk on certain [ __ ] that you know what I mean a lot of other people people been talking about I let them keep doing the talk and I got other [ __ ] to work on I'm trying to work on me being a better person yeah I respect I respect that man but were ever part of any gang or like you sounding like the F never hey we don't the F in South Africa man only PS I'm just playing with you yeah I've been affiliated with the bloods in New York City um ENT Tre um yeah so crazy have you ever been to sa like have you ever been to Africa or um I've been to Africa where did you go uh gaban gille damn G to perform there um I went to perform there but uh got some great friends there they actually had ran the country at the time this is before the big yeah yeah overtaking and stuff like that but I had a ball out there I got to go to an island called Pony um that was a dope experience as they took me to the jungles I got to see some of the indigenous people um it was like a a real um life Awakening like and I got to see how also the rich people live out there also like I got to see both sides like that you know what I mean it was it was a great experience I out there for like a week um I haven't been back since but yeah it was dope you never been to South Africa never been to South Africa bro so the reason why I asked that is because like yo bro like American culture has infiltrated South Africa like you can't believe like you know we got people worshiping you guys you know Jim Jones rappers and everything you so we've got rappers who rap just like you and youd say they're like Bloods and Crips but they've never they've never left sa you know cuz that's how influential uh the culture is right but from you when you see or hear that like what do you guys think like do you think is like some [ __ ] like or like leave don't don't follow the gang life you know what I mean oh as far as that is concerned um there's two sides to that this what you do as a gang member that turns it into something that becomes a crime or whatever that end but the Brotherhood part of it is what the most of us joined up for when we coming up in the hood and need that Brotherhood lean on somebody is that type of camaraderie that pretty much stood for and there's a lot of other great attributes that comes with affiliation or you becoming a part of a gang um it gets twisted up because we all come up in these urban communities and our back is against the wall we don't have no opportunities um it's very dormant uh we on top of each other so naturally testosterone testosterone wins in a lot of these situations where these kids find s in bad situations and for that I would tell people to kind of stay away from this type of life um I don't want to oppose my will we all going to experience what we going to experience but I can't tell you the consequences to this type of Lifestyle could be very dear you heard ethal a lot of people don't get to make it where I made it and Escape that lifestyle that could have put me away or could have put me in the dirt I mean so here as a Living testament to tell you that these consequences are terrible the odds on you making it out of that life in a positive manner are very slim I mean but if you are in that life and you taking it as a Brotherhood and try to uplift your brothers I know there's a lot of people around you that are doing a lot of [ __ ] that that that that that's very crazy you know what I mean if you're a part of that and you got the positive minder then you try to uplift your brother and instill some positivity within them because it's very cold out here so I've always been curious bro like so when that when you you you start getting immersed you know or Affiliated in the gang life how does that affect the conversation at home with your parents like your mom your dad and just the domestic you know Dynamics I a't grow my parents I was a grown man since I was like 15 I made my own money since I was like 16 my grandmother left me in high school man I was raising my Sisters by myself in the projects I hustle every I ever got in my life that's why music saved my life I was so grateful to be able to be next to cam and him getting a deal at such a very young age to be able to still be making money off that [ __ ] right now you were U anr for Warner uh music group yeah I was the director of anr for Warner Music Group um years ago uh shouts to Kevin L shouts to Leo Cohen for giving me the opportunity um great opportunity uh I excelled at it extremely very young with a lot of power but didn't understand what I had at hand um didn't have too many people in my corner that were telling me the things that I should have been doing with that type of position as opposed to some type of weird way be hating you know I mean so that's what happened but as you get older you learn you learn and you move on who did you discover while you were in that position uh I would tell you a story I I know I've helped try s uh they come to tra songs that you know today he's always in he's always in we know why no n but he was a young kid at the time and uh they were actually going to cut him from the label we had a big uh um it's like uh one of them uh some events they be doing not the talent shows the uh well was something like that all the artists had to come perform and then they pretty much didn't know that they was on a Cho and block at the time when I was an executive and and he was one of the artists that they were going to cut and I remember Kevin L specifically ask me yo what we should do with him I'm about to cut him I don't know what to do with him and when I heard him uh singing and I saw him perform I was like this is this is one artist you should keep and did that and now we all tra songs on so many dope ass records is it true you could have signed Drake yeah I had a chance to sign uh I had a chance to do business with Drake um through Allan grum blat um when I was doing business at cotch um it was a different era I didn't understand what Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he show me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah understand everybody going at my guy I understand the hate man the hate is so phenomenal it's just how this game go man this game is so tricky man these [ __ ] just like females in this game we ain't going to get into that man there's a lot of uh but wait wait wait so so with Drake like are you are you seeing him perform like try songs or like you just heard of the guy just a conversation Allan called me about signing a kid let me hear some of his music um and I was like the kid know how to rap but I don't know what to do with him his image is crazy and him couple years later heard him on a Wheezy mixtape going crazy I was like wow this kid is about to go wham inside of this business and he sure did and you're know trying to call Weezy like yo man I gotta get that kid or something n he was already signed a young money and jcole did you miss on jcole as well I could have signed J Cole bro jcole was in the studio with me every day and at that point jcole I he's he remind me of a knockoff Drake and not to say it like that but that's who he sounded like he came to my studio every day rapping to these Drake beats rapping like Drake Cadence like Drake he could rap his ass off yeah you heard yeah but it was already a drake out there he had the Caesar it was different like two lightskinn [ __ ] might not K when raing the same but you never know what you got in front of you man you dig and those are lessons I I've took with me to moving forward when I see artists and and I hate artists I always give them more than just hearing just just I got to I got to I gotta try to capture the whole picture I make sure I just don't you mean so I don't miss nothing else because I've missed a few people and I've helped a few people um gain a lot of success in in my time in this industry whether it been by me having a meeting with them or me having influence on them or you know I mean so you know and there's never like any animosity like Jake Cole or Drake never came up to be like yo you could have signed me look at me now bro I mean me and Drake is cool as [ __ ] um I see J Cole I don't think he I mean I don't think that's no he some [ __ ] he might want to keep to himself not to be like that sh the co he not that type of artist he's not a you I mean yeah you did I look I look at as we can see I want to mention an artist who like I'm really fond of like I think this guy's [ __ ] amazing musically talented everything that he touched like turned to Gold who's that uh kid k bro K Cy yeah yeah did you help him with his career yeah I birth K Cy wow J me how so bro bir them nobody would have know who K Cy was at all if I a jump on this remix record but it wasn't even remix he wasn't even a nobody like I tell a story all the time I had a inter used to work for me said he got some dudes that do videos they would like to do a video for me told them come let me see they work they show me their videos the first video they showed me was of the kid Cy record he's on the top of a roof some simple video the record sound more wavy than the opportunity for them to do a video I'm like well if you'll get me the beat to this record I Remix this record and then y'all can shoot the video to that record wow and that's what they did and then um the radio station ripped the record off of YouTube and start playing it at Hot 97 and K Cy was born bro why do you think especially about kid Cy cuz from him when I listen to music right it wasn't really no no other kid Cy record besides the one that I was on yeah man he's not in they don't play his records where I be at at all not to be funny wow bro and we listen to him like all that day and night you know remember only record I know yeah it's the only record I know unless it's like a pop record that everybody know and I and I'm even not paying attention to it but he don't his records don't get played nowhere that i' be at not like that unless I go into a different farm and that's the type of music they playing in one of these funny clubs that play fist pump music and pop music he's not into like you dig like they don't play his music in the clubs I'll be at maybe in Vegas and [ __ ] like that but that's not like they not pumping this [ __ ] in live they not pumping this [ __ ] in Atlanta they not pumping this [ __ ] down the Stafford room or you know what I mean like they I'm not saying nothing like that but I don't hear it in the strip clubs I don't hear like you know what I mean so but he's a very successful person with some of the greats like Kanye to put him in a position to win and [ __ ] like that and I think he's way more better as an actor than he is a musician and that's just my POS that's just my opinion he did I seen him in the movie uh about the race car [ __ ] where he was F the playe like he got a lot of Charisma and [ __ ] like that on on camera for what I could see and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean bro I mean for you as Jim Jones to to see these kids you're introduced to them by an intern and then to hop onto that song it's something selfless you know to just give these unknown kids an opportunity of sharing a song with you where do you think that selflessness comes from how was that unknown kid I'm still an unknown kid anytime I get an opportunity that's an opportunity I should be able to give to somebody else bro the fact that you could even come to our podcast shout out man yeah man you don't even know us exactly what you're saying yeah know us what's his name I don't it's fine you know remember those kids who who did the video for him anyway you know remember I remember like that kids that got the biggest African podcast I'm definitely going to know like them is my guys right family right there appreciate I really mean that that sincerely and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean I I bump in too many people in my life and been across too many people in my journey to actually remember everybody's name but the face and the cause and I mean BR I want to understand right the first time you came up with the concept For Love and Hip Hop where were you what was happening that um that was something like uh me and Christy she had opportunity to do uh her own reality show um and actually fell through and that kind of she was kind of she wanted to do that I can see she was eager about doing that when it fell through kind you know I mean [ __ ] with her mood and [ __ ] like that so so so so so the initial concept what was it was just Chrissy just showing like what's life the initial concept was about she had her own thing going on about a group of women that was supposed to do a reality show had nothing to do with me yeah that [ __ ] fell through she lost that opportunity to end up not going people have been begging me to do reality TV for past couple years at the time and I and you reality TV gold man I refused to do it yeah and then when that happened I was like all right I got I'll do this for you and we'll make it about you and females that have to that are involved with artist such as myself and show what the relationship side is when you're dealing with a high-profile artist and you know what I mean how so that's how that started bro and that thing became a monster super super monster like it's still big till this day bro 100% so do you have like uh ownership in that we we were link a all that you know at that time when maybe the second season we just in a position where we refuse to compromise our dignity for anyone or any dollar and sometimes it be like that you know what I mean um but ain't no stress off my back T my hat to him you no but but but we got to talk about that because you see like this podcast um it's blackowned right it's just me and a couple of other people that are involved in the podcast right and we're always striving for ownership so a lot of um Brands and investors have come to try to buy the podcast and we say know cuz like we believe in ownership and telling the story the way we want to tell it right so what went wrong in that because as a hustler I believe like that's your also end goal MH um it wasn't something that I was just a lot of different layers and [ __ ] like that and I was too worried about doing other things and we had the opportunity to gain all ownership 50% of the whole TV show and all that but it still wasn't worth GE bro that's insane you just let go like that yeah bro it's your brain child bro there is no Love and& Hip Hop without you bro I still got a brain you heard yeah those are for people that don't have a brain that lack creativity people that steal things from you lack what you don't have remember that yeah whether it's money whether it's creativity whatever it is they lack what you don't have ultimately they steal from you you heard I mean we didn't even know C beef if it wasn't for Love and& Hip Hop right yeah yeah yeah definitely yeah bro you gave birth to so many many people man like VI their careers that's the god in me that's why I'm always going to be good yeah she man so any other shows that you're working on like in the pipeline that you want to do I was telling you I working on um a late night show a late night um a late night variety show live in studio audience hopefully we'll be filming in about 40 to 60 days um beautiful concept I do I do believe people going enjoy the show um like I was saying I can't do um a podcast is too personal for me and [ __ ] like that and me watching these podcasts um dealing with these artists me myself don't have the temperament for it you know what I mean um I [ __ ] I T my hat to y'all to have to deal with artists such as myself cuz you never know what type of mood they going to come in you know what I me some of these artists have a air to them where they feel like they better than most and they would never sit and have tea with the with the maintenance guy you heard me myself me going to maintenance guy going to smoke blunts before I get on stage [Music] I live my life and and and currently uh before we let you go man what do you think about the state of hip-hop cuz like statistically numbers wise it's not looking good man e beats has played all over New York now there's now the pianos this is this is what they want you to do this is how to get us to go against each other it's all under the same culture umbrella it's afro music ref I'm a piano I'm a piano explain that what do you mean by that bro yeah R&B what do you mean by that ultimately it's all from under the same origin and creativity of the same person from the same colors is all our thing n but let's be honest Jimmy hip-hop hasn't involved bro when I was listening to Eminem what do you want mean what do you mean hip-hop hasn't evolved you guys are still rapping about the same stuff it don't you you missing the point of what hip-hop is yeah hip-hop has evolved to a point that you can be the music genres that you're told them about can be noticed you think that if there was a hip hop that I'm a piano would be noticed or afro Beach would be noticed think about that and not to take nothing away from y because you always have culture and yes that music might be big within the continent of Africa yeah right but to cross over to American Fame and commercialism you don't think that the hip-hop culture played a big part in that that's that that's a different argument now you want to have a different argument I'm telling you the semantics of where we going with this you dig like you talking about uh the the hip hop music is damn percentage that's how they want us to think when it's really not cuz we all uplifting each other you heard you think that the country music that's going on in the black people winning is not because of the hip-hop culture no no no I think no one is disputing that however so then when you say hip-hop numbers are down and damn for who no I'm talking about I know what you're talking about but damn for who tell me who it's down for because I'm still making the money I make yeah I do believe there's still a lot of artist that's making a shitload of money that they make I don't think it went down for them yeah you know what I mean but I understand what you're talking about they say the numbers and then rock and roll genre might be up like I don't really you heard like that's I'm into this business you heard and it's always up for us you heard cuz this is a business we make money out of nothing it's never a downside to this okay and and that's why I'm saying I think we're having two different conversations here cuz the conversation I'm having is I'm having I'm having right is that in as much as he's saying yeah the numbers are down because they orchestrated and whatever I get that right but also that's why I asked do you think Hip-hop has evolved cuz I grew up on hip-hop right and the same things um quote unquote you guys were rapping about in the '90s how can hipop how can hip hop evolved in the same thing that Africa been Africa been going on since the '90s aren't y going still going through the same thing we are huh we are so how could the music evolve when the music ref the time ah okay get you real stories what you want us to rap about [ __ ] that that we don't have ah we talk about [ __ ] we dream about all the time that's the good The Good Life the colorin the Ros we talk about but the truth is how the music going to change when our position hasn't changed when we still going through the same [ __ ] we've been going through okay and y'all being from Africa should know that more than we know that yeah that's facts that's fact go about that own Cod yeah yeah yeah yeah you know are bro that's a valid fact but how do you feel man like you've come from an era where you guys when what you you said in your raps I mean evolved as far as dition as far as what we rap about cuz we still stuck in the same place but as a business it has evolved to one of big time yeah yeah biggest big time money making machines you can attach yourself to this made some of the richest individuals whether you're the rapper the lawyer the executive like that's true you know what I mean the supply chain but then I think that's why you know when you get the likes of a wz coming out and Kendrick Lamar they stand out like a sore thumb because like they are rapping about but that's what music is about to stand out for those who that want to look like everybody they don't get nowhere why you think Dip set was so successful sucessful yeah because we stood out on purpose we don't want to look like or H or sound like no one else m we want yall to above all see us when we walk in the building and hear us when we get on that [ __ ] mic you heard why would you guys the diplomats I never like where did that come from the diplomats the name the diplomats yeah we diplomats oh ah okay that sounded cool no we diplomats we are Harlem diplomats and we take it as that you heard we go to the Embassy when we land in countries you heard all right okay okay okay I I sort of get that bro so in the business and how you still making money right now like from music just like how is it royalties damn you asking a lot of questions bro no I want to know bro I'm so I've got so many questions I want to ask you bro I'll tell you this music is supposed to be used so you can make as much ancillary dollars as you can because the music ain't promised everybody 15 minutes of fame ranges from a small 15 minutes of fame to a run like we having within that minute the 15 minutes the fame you better do a lot of other things to secure your bag because music is not going to be thing you be able to get paid off forever unless you're the DRS and the J that's not even 1% that's you know what I mean so you think about that so you better have some hustle you better learn how to you better have some business sense you better put your credit in order you better do a few things to secure you if you are artist [ __ ] leverage powerful penda yeah man how do you feel man when these kids these days wrap up about you know trying to act tough and rap about stuff they never done like you guys red about stuff you lived I mean I do believe a lot of these kids are going through a lot of [ __ ] that we went through and then a lot of the kids are talking about [ __ ] that they see but most of the kids are all growing up in the same community that all of that [ __ ] is going on so who tells them they don't have the right to talk about [ __ ] that they're not doing when that's still [ __ ] that they're seeing oh sure Ah that's powerful but the problem I have a problem when they rapping like they did it but they just R from somebody else's Vantage Point understand that but most of these artists that you've seen in the game some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I pretty firm in his in in his music that I'm a believer that he did some of that [ __ ] he can talk about just me I don't know you possibilities are possibilities but some things just seem correct you know mean I can't tell you for sure cuz it is music you know what I mean but some things seem correct [ __ ] man bro you got to come out to man you got to you know we haven't had a proper uh hip-hop concert in sa like since 50 N since you are come on back to the city does concerts man ah those are for old people empd the bigest artist in South Africa right now Hip-Hop Hip-Hop uh there's a guy called nastyc but nesty came here he doesn't know know you f poopa who's that nah F poopa Nigerian West African artist massive he used to pop not now for real still massive bigger than like ber boyo still it's different type of music oh stadiums is 50 60,000 people like what is this following this gu what's his name f poop F poop I don't know him bro he's from Nigeria yeah yeah yeah yeah Nigerian Prett pretty big yeah humongous bro how big was was 50 Cent bro like during his Reign man like how big was 50 Cent [ __ ] retardedly big it wasn't nothing bigger than him was Drake before Drake was dring he was oh [ __ ] he did it like it was like 50 was on a run that he never even touched the club bro like [ __ ] never seen him in the club he only did Arenas I never knew too many artist that just did that you dig like the [ __ ] was super massive every [ __ ] Rec he came out with was was going platinum and I'm just telling you the facts you heard and I always got to speak factual no matter how I feel about a person the [ __ ] was on top Super on top it was no way to knock him off his d i remember Jay-Z dropped the diss track on you did you guys resolve that beef I think you were not happy with him as the president of De jam oh man um we never really had a beef um we had some feuds back and forth through the situations that were going on over other people um and me being who I am I had to hold my ground um but to know that he actually talked about me in multiple of his records mean that I was pretty big in his eyes you dig true true cuz I didn't hear him talk about too many people in his career and if he did talk you talk about you on the record that meant something you know what I mean and I was then so for me that I I I took that like what it was like you dig like yeah J doesn't respond to take the time out to say my name you heard if I'm if I'm not that big of a deal to you you would never ever a am I am I right talk about a person you heard true it's it's a form of respect and ackowledge 100% am I right in saying a lot of [ __ ] are scared of Jay-Z bro cuz we interviewed Dam Ian I don't I don't know I'm not a lot of [ __ ] you heard I'm a man so I couldn't I I couldn't tell you that you heard I ain't scared to nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that that that dentist yeah the dentist got me there you heard you can walk in you could walk we about to fight right now you a dentist walk in you got it you got it like you got it bow down you got it I don't want no smoke let me get out of here M fact word Jimmy before you go man uh what beefs did you have so you had something beef with Jay-Z right no man I just told you we had some feuds stemming from that's beef bro stemming from other things that going on um my problem like it was all part of Us coming up in the game and things were happening we were signing a Rockefeller cam was sign a Rockefeller actually then we got opportunity to Diplomat records um the split between uh Jay and Dame came um artist took sides some took the J side some took the the Dame side which side were you on we was on the Dame side OB Dash yeah Dame Dash that's do you think Dame Dash is misunderstood bro huh you think Dame Dash is misunderstood um too smart for his own good I get that yeah if you had the opportunity again you sometimes being the smartest person in the room could be held against you especially when you want everybody to know that you're the smartest person in the room yeah yeah yeah and I get given a second chance would you still side with Dam never you wouldn't never whoa I never signed a d at all that was no no no like sided with him took his side oh give a second chance I wouldn't have sided with none of them I would we would haveed our [ __ ] business but you learned that with age yeah you heard we had no business butting into that because it wasn't a street beef and this wasn't some [ __ ] that had to do with us ultimately we were holding our [ __ ] down and [ __ ] like that but business-wise if we would if we knew what we knew now we would let them get into that they self y'all can handle that because we got records to put out and music to make and we got our own record label to run you dig and this my hinder what we got going on by us taking sides and that's why I tell people now even when people seeing all the Diplomat [ __ ] like y bro don't don't get in to taking sides with me and my bro because you never know how that might end up and if it end up to a point where we do figure out our situation then I'm looking at you funny now me and you got forever you heard you dig and there are plenty of people that did that and plenty people that didn't and plenty people that showed the same amount of love that he showed to me that it showed to cam when we were going through our imaginary situations and [ __ ] like that cuz it's all imaginary when you know you can figure figure it out now it's a saying that like don't just be in people's business when especially when they've beef and take sides cuz and I I had to learn that a lot I had took me a long time to learn that because of how we come up in the Cod that they supposedly treat us in teach us in the street and [ __ ] like that but sometimes that's not the smallest thing that we can do and then uh push a t did you ever beef with him nah that was some [ __ ] that we was on record um he did some [ __ ] I did some [ __ ] you dig that was it I never followed that I didn't even know did you know there's a pusher T me I ain't got no just know I don't know I know you're from I know you're from Africa and [ __ ] like that but people don't play with me yeah for real and I don't I don't play with people this ain't no playground you heard this is the street it's two ways don't get caught up in a yellow line it's going to be hard to cross bro yeah you heard no I don't trust me I'm from Africa but I saw what happened at the airport so that [ __ ] escalated yeah [ __ ] that was self-defense man God yo bro it looked like that guy was just messing with you bro I wish that could have never happened cuz I was trying to avoid that by all cause but [ __ ] happened sometime man you dig and definitely not not going to allow anybody do anything to me at all bro when I saw that video right like I don't know I just met you today right but I saw when you lifted that guy from the escalator threw him down he literally just went on survival mode bro like it's like there was a button that you switched on and you just like I don't [ __ ] care but yeah yeah no I mean no that's a button that I choose not to push you heard yeah exactly like you can go there quickly I choose to show restraint for a lot of reasons in my life and sometimes it's hard to you dig but where I'm at in life right now I choose positivity or all the other things that come out my way because I know how it is to be negative I was once that negative person that was very aggressive and ready to do something to to you over the minimal alistic of things and [ __ ] like that so I'm blessed to be here to try to be able to show restraint and so so the guy so the guy at the airport you guys on the same plane yeah we on the same plane so you don't have a private jet no I don't have a private jet I'm not a rich man come on Jimmy you made so much money over the years but anyway so you're in the plane what's he what's this guy saying to you like um I don't know man just [ __ ] happens I know just the started from the plane just know that what you see happen on so it starts on the plane you restrain yourself you're like all right cool my dog say whatever you want to say yeah when he gets to the airport I mean the escalator that's when I think he starts hitting you or something right yeah something like that he tried to do something like that and that's what we see man but like I said this is not something that I want to glorify it's not you think he knows who you are um if if he didn't he know now no I'm I'm sorry see sorry cuz some people just provoke I believe he was he was trolling a little bit and things like that which is cool you I mean I'm if if you in New York not time 10 you do know who I am so you know I believe it was a bit of that but God bless man hopefully that they all right hopefully the old man um cool you dig like are you spiritual cuz you mentioned God a lot man yeah I'm very spiritual very spiritual very spiritual I've been my whole family is spiritual and what does that mean in an American sense cuz um us as African for me it means a lot of different things um I was told what the church was as a young age as they drag you to church every Sunday your grandmother your moms and your family and things like that and you really don't understand what that is from that young but as you get older and you go through certain things and you make it through certain things you understand that there is a God and everybody has a relationship with their God different and sometimes going to church doesn't mean that you love your God any less or he loves you any less you dig and you say spiritual I'm very spiritual I say my prayers as much as I can sometime two three four times in a day you dig man doesn't take away from what I do and who I am because I'm still in the line for everything else everybody is in but I know every day that I'm able to wake up and every day I'm able to make a dollar and every day I'm able to keep living the life that I am I should be thankful you heard cuz that's not just me that's a higher vibration that's definitely a God you dig and I'm well aware that I've escaped many things in life that Lord knows I should not be here but then again I should be here cuz he put here for a reason he gives his toughest battles to his strongest people what the Bible say you heard and I've made it through some very tough battles which are minimal to some of the people that I had next to me in their battles you know what I mean so it's like we all got to figure it out Jim Jones thank you so much man and thanks to God for bringing you here man definitely I appreciate for making time for us bro thank you man we appreciate you tired when you got you I appreciate the fact that you could even make it man got any last question yeah man bro you said you've gone through some tough battles and you mentioned how you lost your dad at like 26 but also that you you pretty much raised yourself from the age of 15 you know from that relationship or lack of it like has it affected how you father your children 100% this made me the best father I could be but me my relationship with my father was always a great one even though he wasn't there because every day he wasn't I love them even more I wasn't one of them kids that was bitter you dig I understand that everybody went through something and at that age what he was going through there was a lot of drug addiction and I knew that from a very young age I understood what drugs was and how they were tearing up my family I never held that against my father and I was just blessed able to get back with him before he passed away so he could see that his son was making something out of himself at that time I was already signed to her uh we think we just got the Rockefeller deal so it was a very big deal for me to be able to get back with my father to show him that me somebody that you should be proud of and I know him looking down right now got be like damn I did that so you know and that's how I feel but then in turn TR here my son I don't you know I mean like I just you know mean I pride myself on making sure that I I turned my son into somebody that was way better than I could ever be you oh man yeah that's my guy shout out to you man is your son still wearing Crocs to you br he's a Croc guy you heard yeah Crocs for Life bro Crocs for Life jumping out the beam with a fresh paer Crocs on I don't want to stand him Jimmy before you go your top five rappers all time my top five rappers of all you got to give us your top five bro yeah Tupac definitely Jay-Z Drake um Drake he not like us by default of course um rock cam no Eminem No No whoa not even big you from NY and not to take nothing away from him he's extremely nice it's retardedly nice when it comes to rap but I listen to artists that kind of you know I mean do something for the life that I live and kind of what I've been through and most of these artist or artist that I'm talking about people that you know what I mean like [ __ ] better stop hating on my boy Drake all of a sudden all this Drake land I get it I get it you ain't like us let's not do that let's not forget the 15 years he been spanking [ __ ] around this [ __ ] all all all over this [ __ ] all the alley he been giving most of these artists that are now seeming to be turning on them let's you know let's not some of them gave him their best hits let's not forget the big picture here and [ __ ] like but what the hip-hop culture and this game is built on competition so I yeah but what is he with it you heard you better put your best foot forward but what has Drake given back to the culture oh that you so love here we go um what is he giving back to the culture I seen him take a lot of people on tour and turn them even richer than they already was I I seen him give a lot of people hits that they would have never had if he wouldn't have got on a record things for the culture that wouldn't have happened in turn records that we would have never knew about him to record that the culture love and things like that I mean he's not from here Canada from the hood I don't believe he owes America too much but the monster that give back to where he's from maybe we should ask about what has he done in Canada giving back to his community as opposed to what he giving back to the culture of the United States when this is not where he's from and I think that's the Divide right there now if we talk about what he's done in Canada and if it's not up to par then maybe we can talk about oh you dig but that's I think that's for the people of Canada you dig like yeah cuz but it's the people of America in the hood who made him of course you heard about but that he didn't grw up in America he didn't grew up here you heard so if you was an artist from Africa yeah like boy yeah do you think bnab boy has responsibility what do Niger of United stes n I'm taking it back home bro super duper big yes but that's what people then will call a culture vulture cuz you come into a space you know do what the people of that space do benefit from them is is is you understand what we doing like it's bro it's not because he's not take so he's not taking benab boy is Nigerian it's a Nigerian culture that is now popular in America so Drake took an American culture and enriched himself but what he's saying is that he doesn't owe anything to America cuz he's not from yet right okay right yeah I mean [ __ ] he's got no obligation Fair argument he got no obligation Fair argument yeah like he lived if he lived like I don't I don't that's how I see it you heard like that's how I see it you dig but all these [ __ ] we talking about are filthy filthy filthy rich off the opinions of men you heard what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never but what I'm just trying to tell you is how this game is played yeah you heard yeah geez man the more we talk the more they get paid the loser still gets paid too if there is a loser I don't think there's a loser when they all getting Millions off of this [ __ ] I don't think I mean like and I understand end all be all in the whole circle of it but I'm I've been in this [ __ ] for so long I'm miss you can see the politics of really get you to understand of what's really going on and [ __ ] like that this [ __ ] don't pay me a dollar to talk about it yeah hey man how tight you with Joe Bon he calls us those African guys with numbers oh yeah yeah yeah Jo this my guy buts what's up man he cool yeah he's an instigator definely know how to get under people's skin yeah I've known Joan for so long [ __ ] like that um I'm proud of him put himself in his position a whole new Lane to make a shitload of money um where it stem from the culture this what I'm talking about all the ancillary things that you need to get going on if are a artist of some type of success you got to use that to get where you want look at Joe used his startom and rap no matter what it was to able to finesse a whole new Lane of podcasting that true he's pretty big in damn near one of the forefathers of it from our culture right y'all started before him or after him we started after him but now we have more numbers than him hey doesn't matter no numbers do matter I mean no J and get num I'm cool with that but you won't be never be the considered the forefather of this whole no no no no no no no you dig 100% yeah it's Jo Joan numbers is cool I'm cool with that you get paid and I know what's a race you might be number one you heard yeah yeah but you still never be the forefather always going to have that under him like I've created this Lane for your how I feel about Ling hip hop yeah of course I got that under my belt that's mine y can never say that was yours at all yeah okay how much money you made off of it and [ __ ] like that at the end of the day you it's mine you heard Still My still mine so we always ask anybody any guest that we get on the show in closing what do you want to be remembered as man when it's all said and done I want I want to be remembered I want I want them to know that I gave more than I took because I was able to take a lot in my time amen just like that sh hey man I wish you put me on love and& hip-hop bro they got the African love of Hip Hop they got Jamaican love of Hip Hop they got they got any type of Love of Hip Hop we need the South African love of Hip Hop thanks Jim man shout out thank you bro I appreciate you man thank you we appreciate podcast and chill we out of here man boom peace welcome to Black excellenc do not fear for if you do just sip on some Grand and if you still do ask ourselves what would M [Music] do when they ask you do not fear for if you do just say an TV this is the the medicine of censorship this is the pill which one is that one podcast and chill	that like you just you dig people congregate usually at night time and all the spots that usually go on down there um okay so we got security obviously you got to roll around with security right um yeah I mean that' be the safest thing for me to do so we get out the cut with security when you get to the bouncers are they letting us in cuz it's Jim Jones or are they checking our IDs cuz they've been checking our IDs just to buy beer here bro Che ID everywhere yeah everywhere yeah no I I don't think I produced my ID in since I was a teenager at clubs but yeah you won't need your ID when you with me so we walking in right yeah we going to get in oh do we have a section do we they going to give us a section VIP yeah they going to give us a section we going to get some bottles and let the night ensue got this thing called Power Hour you go to the club maybe like 2:45 to 3:45 in and out no sweat so what's the what's the purpose of that exercise the Power Hour yeah like why would you be in the cloud for an hour why would I be in a club for 4 hours it's Fu I mean I've been part I've been partying since I've been 14 I've been making money to party since I've been 18	8	6	7	that like you just you dig people congregate usually at night time and all the spots that usually go on down there um okay so we got security obviously you got to roll around with security right um yeah I mean that' be the safest thing for me to do so we get out the cut with security when you get to the bouncers are they letting us in cuz it's Jim Jones or are they checking our IDs cuz they've been checking our IDs just to buy beer here bro Che ID everywhere yeah everywhere yeah no I I don't think I produced my ID in since I was a teenager at clubs but yeah you won't need your ID when you with me so we walking in right yeah we going to get in oh do we have a section do we they going to give us a section VIP yeah they going to give us a section we going to get some bottles and let the night ensue got this thing called Power Hour you go to the club maybe like 2:45 to 3:45 in and out no sweat so what's the what's the purpose of that exercise the Power Hour yeah like why would you be in the cloud for an hour why would I be in a club for 4 hours it's Fu I mean I've been part I've been partying since I've been 14 I've been making money to party since I've been 18	so what's the what's the purpose of that exercise the Power Hour	6,4,8	2,-2,3	6	4	8	2	-2	3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr730VmL-lk	4,054	rr730VmL-lk	2024-06-27 00:00:00	like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano no well Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he showed me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah just understand everybody going there my guy I understand the hate exactly what you're saying yeah bro what's his name I don't it's fine you remember those some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I ain't scared of nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that the dentist yeah dentist got me there what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never [Music] [Music] yo Jimmy you do not look like you want to be here bro like someone forced you to be it's like you have to do that par they're the biggest podcast in Africa you have to be there I never look like I want to be nowhere man you got to part of me but congratulations to yall having the biggest podcast in Africa that that that's very big Africa being one of the biggest continents in the world a lot of people over there shut up man why you so tired bro crazy weekend I've been working all weekend shows different states traveling Planes Trains automobiles you know how I be a little bit too much partying yeah road kill it's tough but what's up how y'all feeling I'm good bro I literally saw um I saw your video uh yesterday for your new single the one you shot in Miami two turn temp yeah yeah how you feel about it bro that [ __ ] is lit man looks like our Vibe bro cuz we've been to Miami myself and and my partner but we never like experienced the Miami night life we were playing in Florida yeah we're DJing in Florida but two South Africans like the diaspora then West Palm Beach as well yeah DJ also yeah like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano what it's a genre it's called a piano no no cuz I'm a piano even you heard like you saw he did the whole Keys thing it has nothing to do with the piano that's where it started but has nothing to do with it these days when when I met charlot man he said the exact same thing he's like oh so you're a podcaster I'm like yeah and then you DJs I'm like no I play I'm a Pian like you're a Pianist man you one talented [ __ ] n it's a genre of music man what kind of genre is that like it's like slowed down house music with a lot of s that African influence that's the only way I can describe it so it's a it's a mix of a marriage house yeah a marriage of house music which originated here at Chicago and stuff and then we slowed it down created a sub genre called guo where guys were sort of rapping but very minimalist raps called guo then the kids were born like in the 2000s late '90s then created a whole meshup of those two genres and it's called Piano cuz a a lot of Americans think it's um afro beats it's not afro beats yeah a lot of the hence I avoided saying afro beats cuz AFR beats is from Nigeria and amap piano is far from afro beat afro beat borrows from am piano now where is amap piano originated from South Africa from the hoods from the Cassis yeah but when I when I was looking at your video bro uh the only thing in my mind was like bro what's a night like out with Jim Jones CU that [ __ ] look lit there [ __ ] everywhere bro um please please describe a night out in Miami with Jim so let's say we going to Miami right now I mean some nice are better than others but been doing it so long it's kind of like the the bare minimum for us to do in Miami just having fun but it still work at the same time like every every I'm I'm not just going out partying for no reason ni like that was we knew what we was kind of getting into we wanted to film a video so we knew we was going to ramp it up a bit take it to the to the highest form going crazy as we could but that actually happened to fall on a big weekend um and one of my dudes was celebrating so everything kind of happened for a reason but yeah Miami could take you for take you for a few a few trips man like okay so so so me and you we get in the car right I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm in Miami I hate you cuz you got a house there you stay there right yeah I got I got I got cribs there so I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm by the strip you know that Miami strip right yeah yeah yeah I mean see that's the thing about Miami when you come to visit Miami that's where people are know at like the strip and things like that I guess stand by Collins and ocean driveing all that people that live there don't really do the strip like that like you just you dig people congregate usually at night time and all the spots that usually go on down there um okay so we got security obviously you got to roll around with security right um yeah I mean that' be the safest thing for me to do so we get out the cut with security when you get to the bouncers are they letting us in cuz it's Jim Jones or are they checking our IDs cuz they've been checking our IDs just to buy beer here bro Che ID everywhere yeah everywhere yeah no I I don't think I produced my ID in since I was a teenager at clubs but yeah you won't need your ID when you with me so we walking in right yeah we going to get in oh do we have a section do we they going to give us a section VIP yeah they going to give us a section we going to get some bottles and let the night ensue got this thing called Power Hour you go to the club maybe like 2:45 to 3:45 in and out no sweat so what's the what's the purpose of that exercise the Power Hour yeah like why would you be in the cloud for an hour why would I be in a club for 4 hours it's Fu I mean I've been part I've been partying since I've been 14 I've been making money to party since I've been 18 I'm kind of burnt out so at this point I try to wait till the club is at the most popping or lest moment which is usually that hour right there and I get to enjoy everything that happened tonight and leave out of there and not be all burnt out what what does your wife say bro cuz you're married man you're surrounded by all these girls like you know I mean I'm going to worry about the women yeah is minimal to the money worry about the money more than anything so so a woman doesn't like give you grief when you come home I yeah you get you get grief all the time if you in a relationship no matter what you do if you had a job on Wall Street you get home you're going to get grief no around it you heard yeah there's women everywhere unless you work in the LGBT Club then you know I mean even there you still going to go home and get like it's no way around it you're going to get you know I mean like yeah so you've never had like been home and you had to explain like yo no man I was just doing music video it's just work like I don't know that good you going to explain yourself in every relationship and things like that I got a good woman at home who understands a job I have and things like that so for the most part but for the most part I'm a very responsible respectable person when when I'm in the streets and when I do have to interact with females and things like that yeah anyway H ladies and gentlemen welcome to another special edition of podcasting chill so CU yeah I am here we're chilling with the [ __ ] Legend Kings of Harlem please make some noise for Jim Jones Jim I gotta say bro I gotta say bro I'm going to be honest with you when I find that your name was GMO geloo gelo I'm like I'm like Jim Jones losing some G points here man what the [ __ ] is that I'm Puerto Rican and a rubian my pops is Puerto Rican the word gelo means William in English is a Spanish Spanish name cuz you know what I was thinking I was thinking that guy who does the show late night you know the short guy who does like the interviews with um this late night comedian man what are the late night shows oh man not uh bad with these oh gosh the late night guy bro uhri or something not Corin O'Brien no not Trevor Noah the other American guy man like uh old new no he's like jimm Kimel Jimmy Kimel jimy he's got that he's got that short guy his name is julo oh I don't I don't I don't got got me messed up I don't even really watch TV like that bro okay I'll be out chasing the money I ain't even got time to do that and if and if I do got some time I'm trying to get a little bit of rest or I'm thinking about money [ __ ] is crucial out here right now you better get to your dollar a lot of [ __ ] about to happen and if you ain't got no coins boy you going to be [ __ ] up you ever been to uh Puerto Rico yeah I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times yeah but business not for the Heritage part of it so like you don't know where like your your your parents were at Familiar of the place where my father's from but I never really got to do the whole go to give with my family understand the roots understand you know I mean like I didn't get to get to that part of it but I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times you find like that's important like to know you it's definitely important I had this um I did an interview not too long ago about um how important the roots are and get to know where my family from know I mean so we'll start to do that pretty soon so so so your dad you know you know your dad right yeah he's passed away oh okay God bless rest in peace what happened to him he passed away yeah like was it um medical thing or yeah natural causes oh damn like when you young or um maybe when I was uh 23 24 oh damn bro SED to hear that man maybe 26 right before my son passed right before my God bless right before my son Bor bro but you like 47 right now I look good for 47y old man no homo you know what I mean thank you very much like what was what's keeping you looking so good is it the yoga yeah a lot of yoga a lot of Pilates I stay in shape um I'm very uh very big on Fitness um work out like five six times a week um it's one of the best ways to stay young and have better chances of living a long life is that why you do it or maybe there's other purpose like you know a lot of people are in gym for their mental health I mean it's very it's very it's very therapeutic I will say that but my main goal is to look good of course but to give me better chances of living forever bro so how you got into rap um I don't know correct me if I'm wrong right but you used to skip church and go to the train station to to rap like no I never skipped Church to go on the train station and rap I skipped Church to go to the train station and go play video games and run the streets and do everything a bad little kid did from the streets of hollow when we was like S8 and n and things like that I don't know if you know about anything about the subway system in New York but that's the pathway system that get you to all five burrows and we definitely was on the subway which maybe we shouldn't have been but we was a little uh loose um for me rapping actually rapping didn't start later on in life to actually uh C and um they I got a deal and things like that and that was the first time me myself really thought about actually raing cuz I'll be honest with you like um dipet I don't really know much about dipet however I know about you guys individually like Cameron old boy like one of my favorite songs uh jul sna had hear that that was Cameron and Jules and jwes he both was on he both old boy and heon yeah why don't you jump on those tracks man those tracks are massive they was already done I was there for the making of both of them incredible tracks yeah and then how did dipit start start like how did you guys start the whole movement um organically kiss him Harem gr up together um talented kids Cam and Mason BL sh was they already was doing music um Everybody gradu graduated high school I didn't get to go to college they went to college they got kicked out they got kicked out they come moved in with me from that that was a uh foundation for them to D into the music you've been in the game for like 20 30 odd years right been in the game for since 1997 how would you describe the different eras of like um hip-hop right especially now cuz um obviously we all know about the Kendrick Lamar song they're not like us but I didn't know how big it was until I landed in in in America and it's like it's like a movement the video yeah it's like huge it's massive bro yeah it's a big record Kendrick did that shout out to Kendrick shout out to my boy Drake but what do you think about like the evolution of hip-hop in all the different areas you've been a part of what do you mean what do I think about it it's a great thing to be a part of something that um you could only dream of everybody doesn't get a chance to be in this game um I've been fortunate enough to be here for so many genres and errors and seen so many people come and go I've watched the smallest artist to the biggest artist who you thow will be here forever and going um I got stories for days I can tell you about um how I feel about it I feel great I feel blessed you know what I mean I feel lucky this [ __ ] don't it's not promised and for me to still be here is definitely a blessing so in the 90s what was the vibe like man like like what in the 90s as far as what in hip-hop yeah it was it was different um 90s was a great era um one of my favorite errors um that was the era we first first came outside um started to get out deal uh very aggressive era uh no social media um cell phones were just being born um everything that you seen you was something that you could grab on to um artists had to go to the towns we couldn't just get on your phone and music you had to go get you couldn't just have access to it so it was a it was it it was a hunt um you had to touch the Tails kiss babies do radio everything like it was just a different ER but who was around like during that time when you who was around like Tupac was did you like meet Tupac Tupac I didn't get to meet Tupac um Tupac passed away what 95 was that yeah right in big in '97 um no I got to see Tupac do a few times in Harlem um that was dope but um not Tupac passed away before we got to get in the record game but I've seen a lot of a lot of artists in my time from a young age to old age we were partying in clubs as teenagers before we even got a record deal and things like that like we were in clubs since high school and [ __ ] like that so any interactions with Big L he was from Harlem right yeah shouts to Big Al Big Al was definitely from Harlem um 139th NFL Big L um I was one of the Cam's uh close friends um actually put cam on a dope record that started to give uh Cam and bloodshed and and her mcgree her was already popping too but guy gave them some notice when it came to R so when you come out like who's who's popping at that time is it git is it mop D it's way before G when we came out I was like Eminem just dropped oh [ __ ] this is Slim Shady not M like Slim Shady I I remember that that was like cam had dropped and Eminem had dropped DMX had dropped Nori had dropped um Big Pun had dropped lud Chris Luda had just started coming out um Nelly Nelly down down baby yeah shouts to coola love um yeah that type of error shouts to shouts to Fat Joe shouts to Buster they was already in it uh Nas was already in it Jay start going crazy that's when he just started taking over with the 1 million 2 million 3 million 4 um yeah very competitive very edgy um lot of the big dogs um had real roots in the streets um especially in the streets of New York so that put that put a real Mystique on everything when it came to the music um all the events with topnotch um it just was a different feel man it was a heavy heavy dope boy era um this was before the drug dealers wanted to be Rappers that's when the rappers wanted to be drug dealers you know what I mean and and that Arrow was was a very dope high impact trenel and Russian it was a was a great error bro I saw an interview you did correct me if I'm wrong I might be paraphrasing but you mentioned a place called the tunnel or something where everybody would be and you guys were [ __ ] [ __ ] in the bathrooms please please describe that manest cuz a place like that couldn't exist right now bro with all this woke [ __ ] I mean yeah and the cancel cult I would say it was probably the greatest Club The Hip hopers have seen and it was during the 90s era it was the Golden Era um in New York they got you had stories about like Studio 54 in that era when everybody used all the biggest of big used to go to Studio 54 well the tunnel was what Studio 54 was to that era to our era and it didn't make so many people and nationalities and genres and just everybody was like a big pumbo all for the sake of the culture you had some of the flyest models to some of the biggest drug dealers biggest gang bangers I mean every former elicit street life you could think of was in the spot along with the biggest artists and rappers and actors and models that you could find into all athletes um it would definitely like that um and was this like per invite or just like anybody could Rock up there nah you couldn't just rock up there for this is '90s entry was like $100 first of all $100 for a club that was the first time we ever heard of it and that was a lot of money back then especially we probably started in '94 going there teenager so $100 was sto a lot of money in New York at the time sneakers wasn't even costing $100 um to get in the club you definitely had to be connected to know somebody or you had to wait on a long line that usually was a block long um they had like an Express line you could pay $100 to get on Express line that'll get you to the door quicker and then you pay your entry fee um streets was blocked off you was a big dog you was able to bring your cars down there I was able to bring like four five of them if I wanted to um yeah the club was just it was different man pull up to the door security they taking people's shoes off they searching your jacket twisting people inside out like they about to go on the Rikers Island I got to I gave security High files I never took my shoes off and not since high school I when we used go in high school we used to get our shoes taken off and things like that make you feel like you going to the cental bookings and [ __ ] like that so what gave you that clout that allowed you to bring four cars in when nobody or you had to be a big dog to bring four cars in when you could just give them a high five instead of removing your shoes and you're young by then like what gives you that CL I was a big dog since a small pup bro J yeah man what gave you those you know credentials at such a young age to suppos all these people cuz Dr Tre was there yeah you putting in four cars not removing shoes I was a good Lord Biden citizen everybody love Jim Jones even even the girls like would you just rock up they say let's go to the bathroom that's it yeah now that well yeah there was a lot of that going on they had a uh the layout was different first of all the club was a block long a whole city block um wow there was like three other four other clubs within the club or spots that look like clubs um the main floor was humongously big the DJ was like a a lifeguard Tower in the middle of the club um you go upstairs they had a VR big V PE upstairs and then go through a door it open up to the bathroom the bathroom was like a unisex Club [ __ ] had a big ass bar in the middle of the bathroom uh bunch of stalls lined up um that [ __ ] was like a hotel inside Lions cocaine everything yeah they was going down a lot of sex was going down there a lot of a lot of drugs was going down in there um yeah the tunnel was definitely uh a landmark to New York City when it comes to the clubs I I definitely um I always think about that club um it did a lot for me in my life um it gave me a lot of imagination when it came to to the culture and the things I was seeing from a young age as to where I want to be and the direction I want to go in yeah we was going there since high school so when you seeing people like Mike Tyson and all these people coming in big cheer on and just having their way as a kid go out got to go to school the next morning you you in school thinking about that [ __ ] like w man this school [ __ ] [ __ ] this school [ __ ] I need some money and I need to go to the tunnel that's all I want to [ __ ] do that's wild man now can you imagine because we in sa right we're looking at all the videos that you guys are pulling out there like we're looking at this lifestyle and then you F Track to 2024 right M and the P didy thing breaks out right I mean i' rather not even to get into that yeah just don't I rather the do I don't you know I mean like it's not it's not my business oh I mean like this you heard God bless it's too much n yeah and it's not me to have an opinion on certain things cuz I ain't perfect I've been through my own [ __ ] in life and I see a lot of people that have even this doing too much just know that I ain't perfect so I choose not to talk on certain [ __ ] that you know what I mean a lot of other people people been talking about I let them keep doing the talk and I got other [ __ ] to work on I'm trying to work on me being a better person yeah I respect I respect that man but were ever part of any gang or like you sounding like the F never hey we don't the F in South Africa man only PS I'm just playing with you yeah I've been affiliated with the bloods in New York City um ENT Tre um yeah so crazy have you ever been to sa like have you ever been to Africa or um I've been to Africa where did you go uh gaban gille damn G to perform there um I went to perform there but uh got some great friends there they actually had ran the country at the time this is before the big yeah yeah overtaking and stuff like that but I had a ball out there I got to go to an island called Pony um that was a dope experience as they took me to the jungles I got to see some of the indigenous people um it was like a a real um life Awakening like and I got to see how also the rich people live out there also like I got to see both sides like that you know what I mean it was it was a great experience I out there for like a week um I haven't been back since but yeah it was dope you never been to South Africa never been to South Africa bro so the reason why I asked that is because like yo bro like American culture has infiltrated South Africa like you can't believe like you know we got people worshiping you guys you know Jim Jones rappers and everything you so we've got rappers who rap just like you and youd say they're like Bloods and Crips but they've never they've never left sa you know cuz that's how influential uh the culture is right but from you when you see or hear that like what do you guys think like do you think is like some [ __ ] like or like leave don't don't follow the gang life you know what I mean oh as far as that is concerned um there's two sides to that this what you do as a gang member that turns it into something that becomes a crime or whatever that end but the Brotherhood part of it is what the most of us joined up for when we coming up in the hood and need that Brotherhood lean on somebody is that type of camaraderie that pretty much stood for and there's a lot of other great attributes that comes with affiliation or you becoming a part of a gang um it gets twisted up because we all come up in these urban communities and our back is against the wall we don't have no opportunities um it's very dormant uh we on top of each other so naturally testosterone testosterone wins in a lot of these situations where these kids find s in bad situations and for that I would tell people to kind of stay away from this type of life um I don't want to oppose my will we all going to experience what we going to experience but I can't tell you the consequences to this type of Lifestyle could be very dear you heard ethal a lot of people don't get to make it where I made it and Escape that lifestyle that could have put me away or could have put me in the dirt I mean so here as a Living testament to tell you that these consequences are terrible the odds on you making it out of that life in a positive manner are very slim I mean but if you are in that life and you taking it as a Brotherhood and try to uplift your brothers I know there's a lot of people around you that are doing a lot of [ __ ] that that that that that's very crazy you know what I mean if you're a part of that and you got the positive minder then you try to uplift your brother and instill some positivity within them because it's very cold out here so I've always been curious bro like so when that when you you you start getting immersed you know or Affiliated in the gang life how does that affect the conversation at home with your parents like your mom your dad and just the domestic you know Dynamics I a't grow my parents I was a grown man since I was like 15 I made my own money since I was like 16 my grandmother left me in high school man I was raising my Sisters by myself in the projects I hustle every I ever got in my life that's why music saved my life I was so grateful to be able to be next to cam and him getting a deal at such a very young age to be able to still be making money off that [ __ ] right now you were U anr for Warner uh music group yeah I was the director of anr for Warner Music Group um years ago uh shouts to Kevin L shouts to Leo Cohen for giving me the opportunity um great opportunity uh I excelled at it extremely very young with a lot of power but didn't understand what I had at hand um didn't have too many people in my corner that were telling me the things that I should have been doing with that type of position as opposed to some type of weird way be hating you know I mean so that's what happened but as you get older you learn you learn and you move on who did you discover while you were in that position uh I would tell you a story I I know I've helped try s uh they come to tra songs that you know today he's always in he's always in we know why no n but he was a young kid at the time and uh they were actually going to cut him from the label we had a big uh um it's like uh one of them uh some events they be doing not the talent shows the uh well was something like that all the artists had to come perform and then they pretty much didn't know that they was on a Cho and block at the time when I was an executive and and he was one of the artists that they were going to cut and I remember Kevin L specifically ask me yo what we should do with him I'm about to cut him I don't know what to do with him and when I heard him uh singing and I saw him perform I was like this is this is one artist you should keep and did that and now we all tra songs on so many dope ass records is it true you could have signed Drake yeah I had a chance to sign uh I had a chance to do business with Drake um through Allan grum blat um when I was doing business at cotch um it was a different era I didn't understand what Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he show me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah understand everybody going at my guy I understand the hate man the hate is so phenomenal it's just how this game go man this game is so tricky man these [ __ ] just like females in this game we ain't going to get into that man there's a lot of uh but wait wait wait so so with Drake like are you are you seeing him perform like try songs or like you just heard of the guy just a conversation Allan called me about signing a kid let me hear some of his music um and I was like the kid know how to rap but I don't know what to do with him his image is crazy and him couple years later heard him on a Wheezy mixtape going crazy I was like wow this kid is about to go wham inside of this business and he sure did and you're know trying to call Weezy like yo man I gotta get that kid or something n he was already signed a young money and jcole did you miss on jcole as well I could have signed J Cole bro jcole was in the studio with me every day and at that point jcole I he's he remind me of a knockoff Drake and not to say it like that but that's who he sounded like he came to my studio every day rapping to these Drake beats rapping like Drake Cadence like Drake he could rap his ass off yeah you heard yeah but it was already a drake out there he had the Caesar it was different like two lightskinn [ __ ] might not K when raing the same but you never know what you got in front of you man you dig and those are lessons I I've took with me to moving forward when I see artists and and I hate artists I always give them more than just hearing just just I got to I got to I gotta try to capture the whole picture I make sure I just don't you mean so I don't miss nothing else because I've missed a few people and I've helped a few people um gain a lot of success in in my time in this industry whether it been by me having a meeting with them or me having influence on them or you know I mean so you know and there's never like any animosity like Jake Cole or Drake never came up to be like yo you could have signed me look at me now bro I mean me and Drake is cool as [ __ ] um I see J Cole I don't think he I mean I don't think that's no he some [ __ ] he might want to keep to himself not to be like that sh the co he not that type of artist he's not a you I mean yeah you did I look I look at as we can see I want to mention an artist who like I'm really fond of like I think this guy's [ __ ] amazing musically talented everything that he touched like turned to Gold who's that uh kid k bro K Cy yeah yeah did you help him with his career yeah I birth K Cy wow J me how so bro bir them nobody would have know who K Cy was at all if I a jump on this remix record but it wasn't even remix he wasn't even a nobody like I tell a story all the time I had a inter used to work for me said he got some dudes that do videos they would like to do a video for me told them come let me see they work they show me their videos the first video they showed me was of the kid Cy record he's on the top of a roof some simple video the record sound more wavy than the opportunity for them to do a video I'm like well if you'll get me the beat to this record I Remix this record and then y'all can shoot the video to that record wow and that's what they did and then um the radio station ripped the record off of YouTube and start playing it at Hot 97 and K Cy was born bro why do you think especially about kid Cy cuz from him when I listen to music right it wasn't really no no other kid Cy record besides the one that I was on yeah man he's not in they don't play his records where I be at at all not to be funny wow bro and we listen to him like all that day and night you know remember only record I know yeah it's the only record I know unless it's like a pop record that everybody know and I and I'm even not paying attention to it but he don't his records don't get played nowhere that i' be at not like that unless I go into a different farm and that's the type of music they playing in one of these funny clubs that play fist pump music and pop music he's not into like you dig like they don't play his music in the clubs I'll be at maybe in Vegas and [ __ ] like that but that's not like they not pumping this [ __ ] in live they not pumping this [ __ ] in Atlanta they not pumping this [ __ ] down the Stafford room or you know what I mean like they I'm not saying nothing like that but I don't hear it in the strip clubs I don't hear like you know what I mean so but he's a very successful person with some of the greats like Kanye to put him in a position to win and [ __ ] like that and I think he's way more better as an actor than he is a musician and that's just my POS that's just my opinion he did I seen him in the movie uh about the race car [ __ ] where he was F the playe like he got a lot of Charisma and [ __ ] like that on on camera for what I could see and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean bro I mean for you as Jim Jones to to see these kids you're introduced to them by an intern and then to hop onto that song it's something selfless you know to just give these unknown kids an opportunity of sharing a song with you where do you think that selflessness comes from how was that unknown kid I'm still an unknown kid anytime I get an opportunity that's an opportunity I should be able to give to somebody else bro the fact that you could even come to our podcast shout out man yeah man you don't even know us exactly what you're saying yeah know us what's his name I don't it's fine you know remember those kids who who did the video for him anyway you know remember I remember like that kids that got the biggest African podcast I'm definitely going to know like them is my guys right family right there appreciate I really mean that that sincerely and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean I I bump in too many people in my life and been across too many people in my journey to actually remember everybody's name but the face and the cause and I mean BR I want to understand right the first time you came up with the concept For Love and Hip Hop where were you what was happening that um that was something like uh me and Christy she had opportunity to do uh her own reality show um and actually fell through and that kind of she was kind of she wanted to do that I can see she was eager about doing that when it fell through kind you know I mean [ __ ] with her mood and [ __ ] like that so so so so so the initial concept what was it was just Chrissy just showing like what's life the initial concept was about she had her own thing going on about a group of women that was supposed to do a reality show had nothing to do with me yeah that [ __ ] fell through she lost that opportunity to end up not going people have been begging me to do reality TV for past couple years at the time and I and you reality TV gold man I refused to do it yeah and then when that happened I was like all right I got I'll do this for you and we'll make it about you and females that have to that are involved with artist such as myself and show what the relationship side is when you're dealing with a high-profile artist and you know what I mean how so that's how that started bro and that thing became a monster super super monster like it's still big till this day bro 100% so do you have like uh ownership in that we we were link a all that you know at that time when maybe the second season we just in a position where we refuse to compromise our dignity for anyone or any dollar and sometimes it be like that you know what I mean um but ain't no stress off my back T my hat to him you no but but but we got to talk about that because you see like this podcast um it's blackowned right it's just me and a couple of other people that are involved in the podcast right and we're always striving for ownership so a lot of um Brands and investors have come to try to buy the podcast and we say know cuz like we believe in ownership and telling the story the way we want to tell it right so what went wrong in that because as a hustler I believe like that's your also end goal MH um it wasn't something that I was just a lot of different layers and [ __ ] like that and I was too worried about doing other things and we had the opportunity to gain all ownership 50% of the whole TV show and all that but it still wasn't worth GE bro that's insane you just let go like that yeah bro it's your brain child bro there is no Love and& Hip Hop without you bro I still got a brain you heard yeah those are for people that don't have a brain that lack creativity people that steal things from you lack what you don't have remember that yeah whether it's money whether it's creativity whatever it is they lack what you don't have ultimately they steal from you you heard I mean we didn't even know C beef if it wasn't for Love and& Hip Hop right yeah yeah yeah definitely yeah bro you gave birth to so many many people man like VI their careers that's the god in me that's why I'm always going to be good yeah she man so any other shows that you're working on like in the pipeline that you want to do I was telling you I working on um a late night show a late night um a late night variety show live in studio audience hopefully we'll be filming in about 40 to 60 days um beautiful concept I do I do believe people going enjoy the show um like I was saying I can't do um a podcast is too personal for me and [ __ ] like that and me watching these podcasts um dealing with these artists me myself don't have the temperament for it you know what I mean um I [ __ ] I T my hat to y'all to have to deal with artists such as myself cuz you never know what type of mood they going to come in you know what I me some of these artists have a air to them where they feel like they better than most and they would never sit and have tea with the with the maintenance guy you heard me myself me going to maintenance guy going to smoke blunts before I get on stage [Music] I live my life and and and currently uh before we let you go man what do you think about the state of hip-hop cuz like statistically numbers wise it's not looking good man e beats has played all over New York now there's now the pianos this is this is what they want you to do this is how to get us to go against each other it's all under the same culture umbrella it's afro music ref I'm a piano I'm a piano explain that what do you mean by that bro yeah R&B what do you mean by that ultimately it's all from under the same origin and creativity of the same person from the same colors is all our thing n but let's be honest Jimmy hip-hop hasn't involved bro when I was listening to Eminem what do you want mean what do you mean hip-hop hasn't evolved you guys are still rapping about the same stuff it don't you you missing the point of what hip-hop is yeah hip-hop has evolved to a point that you can be the music genres that you're told them about can be noticed you think that if there was a hip hop that I'm a piano would be noticed or afro Beach would be noticed think about that and not to take nothing away from y because you always have culture and yes that music might be big within the continent of Africa yeah right but to cross over to American Fame and commercialism you don't think that the hip-hop culture played a big part in that that's that that's a different argument now you want to have a different argument I'm telling you the semantics of where we going with this you dig like you talking about uh the the hip hop music is damn percentage that's how they want us to think when it's really not cuz we all uplifting each other you heard you think that the country music that's going on in the black people winning is not because of the hip-hop culture no no no I think no one is disputing that however so then when you say hip-hop numbers are down and damn for who no I'm talking about I know what you're talking about but damn for who tell me who it's down for because I'm still making the money I make yeah I do believe there's still a lot of artist that's making a shitload of money that they make I don't think it went down for them yeah you know what I mean but I understand what you're talking about they say the numbers and then rock and roll genre might be up like I don't really you heard like that's I'm into this business you heard and it's always up for us you heard cuz this is a business we make money out of nothing it's never a downside to this okay and and that's why I'm saying I think we're having two different conversations here cuz the conversation I'm having is I'm having I'm having right is that in as much as he's saying yeah the numbers are down because they orchestrated and whatever I get that right but also that's why I asked do you think Hip-hop has evolved cuz I grew up on hip-hop right and the same things um quote unquote you guys were rapping about in the '90s how can hipop how can hip hop evolved in the same thing that Africa been Africa been going on since the '90s aren't y going still going through the same thing we are huh we are so how could the music evolve when the music ref the time ah okay get you real stories what you want us to rap about [ __ ] that that we don't have ah we talk about [ __ ] we dream about all the time that's the good The Good Life the colorin the Ros we talk about but the truth is how the music going to change when our position hasn't changed when we still going through the same [ __ ] we've been going through okay and y'all being from Africa should know that more than we know that yeah that's facts that's fact go about that own Cod yeah yeah yeah yeah you know are bro that's a valid fact but how do you feel man like you've come from an era where you guys when what you you said in your raps I mean evolved as far as dition as far as what we rap about cuz we still stuck in the same place but as a business it has evolved to one of big time yeah yeah biggest big time money making machines you can attach yourself to this made some of the richest individuals whether you're the rapper the lawyer the executive like that's true you know what I mean the supply chain but then I think that's why you know when you get the likes of a wz coming out and Kendrick Lamar they stand out like a sore thumb because like they are rapping about but that's what music is about to stand out for those who that want to look like everybody they don't get nowhere why you think Dip set was so successful sucessful yeah because we stood out on purpose we don't want to look like or H or sound like no one else m we want yall to above all see us when we walk in the building and hear us when we get on that [ __ ] mic you heard why would you guys the diplomats I never like where did that come from the diplomats the name the diplomats yeah we diplomats oh ah okay that sounded cool no we diplomats we are Harlem diplomats and we take it as that you heard we go to the Embassy when we land in countries you heard all right okay okay okay I I sort of get that bro so in the business and how you still making money right now like from music just like how is it royalties damn you asking a lot of questions bro no I want to know bro I'm so I've got so many questions I want to ask you bro I'll tell you this music is supposed to be used so you can make as much ancillary dollars as you can because the music ain't promised everybody 15 minutes of fame ranges from a small 15 minutes of fame to a run like we having within that minute the 15 minutes the fame you better do a lot of other things to secure your bag because music is not going to be thing you be able to get paid off forever unless you're the DRS and the J that's not even 1% that's you know what I mean so you think about that so you better have some hustle you better learn how to you better have some business sense you better put your credit in order you better do a few things to secure you if you are artist [ __ ] leverage powerful penda yeah man how do you feel man when these kids these days wrap up about you know trying to act tough and rap about stuff they never done like you guys red about stuff you lived I mean I do believe a lot of these kids are going through a lot of [ __ ] that we went through and then a lot of the kids are talking about [ __ ] that they see but most of the kids are all growing up in the same community that all of that [ __ ] is going on so who tells them they don't have the right to talk about [ __ ] that they're not doing when that's still [ __ ] that they're seeing oh sure Ah that's powerful but the problem I have a problem when they rapping like they did it but they just R from somebody else's Vantage Point understand that but most of these artists that you've seen in the game some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I pretty firm in his in in his music that I'm a believer that he did some of that [ __ ] he can talk about just me I don't know you possibilities are possibilities but some things just seem correct you know mean I can't tell you for sure cuz it is music you know what I mean but some things seem correct [ __ ] man bro you got to come out to man you got to you know we haven't had a proper uh hip-hop concert in sa like since 50 N since you are come on back to the city does concerts man ah those are for old people empd the bigest artist in South Africa right now Hip-Hop Hip-Hop uh there's a guy called nastyc but nesty came here he doesn't know know you f poopa who's that nah F poopa Nigerian West African artist massive he used to pop not now for real still massive bigger than like ber boyo still it's different type of music oh stadiums is 50 60,000 people like what is this following this gu what's his name f poop F poop I don't know him bro he's from Nigeria yeah yeah yeah yeah Nigerian Prett pretty big yeah humongous bro how big was was 50 Cent bro like during his Reign man like how big was 50 Cent [ __ ] retardedly big it wasn't nothing bigger than him was Drake before Drake was dring he was oh [ __ ] he did it like it was like 50 was on a run that he never even touched the club bro like [ __ ] never seen him in the club he only did Arenas I never knew too many artist that just did that you dig like the [ __ ] was super massive every [ __ ] Rec he came out with was was going platinum and I'm just telling you the facts you heard and I always got to speak factual no matter how I feel about a person the [ __ ] was on top Super on top it was no way to knock him off his d i remember Jay-Z dropped the diss track on you did you guys resolve that beef I think you were not happy with him as the president of De jam oh man um we never really had a beef um we had some feuds back and forth through the situations that were going on over other people um and me being who I am I had to hold my ground um but to know that he actually talked about me in multiple of his records mean that I was pretty big in his eyes you dig true true cuz I didn't hear him talk about too many people in his career and if he did talk you talk about you on the record that meant something you know what I mean and I was then so for me that I I I took that like what it was like you dig like yeah J doesn't respond to take the time out to say my name you heard if I'm if I'm not that big of a deal to you you would never ever a am I am I right talk about a person you heard true it's it's a form of respect and ackowledge 100% am I right in saying a lot of [ __ ] are scared of Jay-Z bro cuz we interviewed Dam Ian I don't I don't know I'm not a lot of [ __ ] you heard I'm a man so I couldn't I I couldn't tell you that you heard I ain't scared to nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that that that dentist yeah the dentist got me there you heard you can walk in you could walk we about to fight right now you a dentist walk in you got it you got it like you got it bow down you got it I don't want no smoke let me get out of here M fact word Jimmy before you go man uh what beefs did you have so you had something beef with Jay-Z right no man I just told you we had some feuds stemming from that's beef bro stemming from other things that going on um my problem like it was all part of Us coming up in the game and things were happening we were signing a Rockefeller cam was sign a Rockefeller actually then we got opportunity to Diplomat records um the split between uh Jay and Dame came um artist took sides some took the J side some took the the Dame side which side were you on we was on the Dame side OB Dash yeah Dame Dash that's do you think Dame Dash is misunderstood bro huh you think Dame Dash is misunderstood um too smart for his own good I get that yeah if you had the opportunity again you sometimes being the smartest person in the room could be held against you especially when you want everybody to know that you're the smartest person in the room yeah yeah yeah and I get given a second chance would you still side with Dam never you wouldn't never whoa I never signed a d at all that was no no no like sided with him took his side oh give a second chance I wouldn't have sided with none of them I would we would haveed our [ __ ] business but you learned that with age yeah you heard we had no business butting into that because it wasn't a street beef and this wasn't some [ __ ] that had to do with us ultimately we were holding our [ __ ] down and [ __ ] like that but business-wise if we would if we knew what we knew now we would let them get into that they self y'all can handle that because we got records to put out and music to make and we got our own record label to run you dig and this my hinder what we got going on by us taking sides and that's why I tell people now even when people seeing all the Diplomat [ __ ] like y bro don't don't get in to taking sides with me and my bro because you never know how that might end up and if it end up to a point where we do figure out our situation then I'm looking at you funny now me and you got forever you heard you dig and there are plenty of people that did that and plenty people that didn't and plenty people that showed the same amount of love that he showed to me that it showed to cam when we were going through our imaginary situations and [ __ ] like that cuz it's all imaginary when you know you can figure figure it out now it's a saying that like don't just be in people's business when especially when they've beef and take sides cuz and I I had to learn that a lot I had took me a long time to learn that because of how we come up in the Cod that they supposedly treat us in teach us in the street and [ __ ] like that but sometimes that's not the smallest thing that we can do and then uh push a t did you ever beef with him nah that was some [ __ ] that we was on record um he did some [ __ ] I did some [ __ ] you dig that was it I never followed that I didn't even know did you know there's a pusher T me I ain't got no just know I don't know I know you're from I know you're from Africa and [ __ ] like that but people don't play with me yeah for real and I don't I don't play with people this ain't no playground you heard this is the street it's two ways don't get caught up in a yellow line it's going to be hard to cross bro yeah you heard no I don't trust me I'm from Africa but I saw what happened at the airport so that [ __ ] escalated yeah [ __ ] that was self-defense man God yo bro it looked like that guy was just messing with you bro I wish that could have never happened cuz I was trying to avoid that by all cause but [ __ ] happened sometime man you dig and definitely not not going to allow anybody do anything to me at all bro when I saw that video right like I don't know I just met you today right but I saw when you lifted that guy from the escalator threw him down he literally just went on survival mode bro like it's like there was a button that you switched on and you just like I don't [ __ ] care but yeah yeah no I mean no that's a button that I choose not to push you heard yeah exactly like you can go there quickly I choose to show restraint for a lot of reasons in my life and sometimes it's hard to you dig but where I'm at in life right now I choose positivity or all the other things that come out my way because I know how it is to be negative I was once that negative person that was very aggressive and ready to do something to to you over the minimal alistic of things and [ __ ] like that so I'm blessed to be here to try to be able to show restraint and so so the guy so the guy at the airport you guys on the same plane yeah we on the same plane so you don't have a private jet no I don't have a private jet I'm not a rich man come on Jimmy you made so much money over the years but anyway so you're in the plane what's he what's this guy saying to you like um I don't know man just [ __ ] happens I know just the started from the plane just know that what you see happen on so it starts on the plane you restrain yourself you're like all right cool my dog say whatever you want to say yeah when he gets to the airport I mean the escalator that's when I think he starts hitting you or something right yeah something like that he tried to do something like that and that's what we see man but like I said this is not something that I want to glorify it's not you think he knows who you are um if if he didn't he know now no I'm I'm sorry see sorry cuz some people just provoke I believe he was he was trolling a little bit and things like that which is cool you I mean I'm if if you in New York not time 10 you do know who I am so you know I believe it was a bit of that but God bless man hopefully that they all right hopefully the old man um cool you dig like are you spiritual cuz you mentioned God a lot man yeah I'm very spiritual very spiritual very spiritual I've been my whole family is spiritual and what does that mean in an American sense cuz um us as African for me it means a lot of different things um I was told what the church was as a young age as they drag you to church every Sunday your grandmother your moms and your family and things like that and you really don't understand what that is from that young but as you get older and you go through certain things and you make it through certain things you understand that there is a God and everybody has a relationship with their God different and sometimes going to church doesn't mean that you love your God any less or he loves you any less you dig and you say spiritual I'm very spiritual I say my prayers as much as I can sometime two three four times in a day you dig man doesn't take away from what I do and who I am because I'm still in the line for everything else everybody is in but I know every day that I'm able to wake up and every day I'm able to make a dollar and every day I'm able to keep living the life that I am I should be thankful you heard cuz that's not just me that's a higher vibration that's definitely a God you dig and I'm well aware that I've escaped many things in life that Lord knows I should not be here but then again I should be here cuz he put here for a reason he gives his toughest battles to his strongest people what the Bible say you heard and I've made it through some very tough battles which are minimal to some of the people that I had next to me in their battles you know what I mean so it's like we all got to figure it out Jim Jones thank you so much man and thanks to God for bringing you here man definitely I appreciate for making time for us bro thank you man we appreciate you tired when you got you I appreciate the fact that you could even make it man got any last question yeah man bro you said you've gone through some tough battles and you mentioned how you lost your dad at like 26 but also that you you pretty much raised yourself from the age of 15 you know from that relationship or lack of it like has it affected how you father your children 100% this made me the best father I could be but me my relationship with my father was always a great one even though he wasn't there because every day he wasn't I love them even more I wasn't one of them kids that was bitter you dig I understand that everybody went through something and at that age what he was going through there was a lot of drug addiction and I knew that from a very young age I understood what drugs was and how they were tearing up my family I never held that against my father and I was just blessed able to get back with him before he passed away so he could see that his son was making something out of himself at that time I was already signed to her uh we think we just got the Rockefeller deal so it was a very big deal for me to be able to get back with my father to show him that me somebody that you should be proud of and I know him looking down right now got be like damn I did that so you know and that's how I feel but then in turn TR here my son I don't you know I mean like I just you know mean I pride myself on making sure that I I turned my son into somebody that was way better than I could ever be you oh man yeah that's my guy shout out to you man is your son still wearing Crocs to you br he's a Croc guy you heard yeah Crocs for Life bro Crocs for Life jumping out the beam with a fresh paer Crocs on I don't want to stand him Jimmy before you go your top five rappers all time my top five rappers of all you got to give us your top five bro yeah Tupac definitely Jay-Z Drake um Drake he not like us by default of course um rock cam no Eminem No No whoa not even big you from NY and not to take nothing away from him he's extremely nice it's retardedly nice when it comes to rap but I listen to artists that kind of you know I mean do something for the life that I live and kind of what I've been through and most of these artist or artist that I'm talking about people that you know what I mean like [ __ ] better stop hating on my boy Drake all of a sudden all this Drake land I get it I get it you ain't like us let's not do that let's not forget the 15 years he been spanking [ __ ] around this [ __ ] all all all over this [ __ ] all the alley he been giving most of these artists that are now seeming to be turning on them let's you know let's not some of them gave him their best hits let's not forget the big picture here and [ __ ] like but what the hip-hop culture and this game is built on competition so I yeah but what is he with it you heard you better put your best foot forward but what has Drake given back to the culture oh that you so love here we go um what is he giving back to the culture I seen him take a lot of people on tour and turn them even richer than they already was I I seen him give a lot of people hits that they would have never had if he wouldn't have got on a record things for the culture that wouldn't have happened in turn records that we would have never knew about him to record that the culture love and things like that I mean he's not from here Canada from the hood I don't believe he owes America too much but the monster that give back to where he's from maybe we should ask about what has he done in Canada giving back to his community as opposed to what he giving back to the culture of the United States when this is not where he's from and I think that's the Divide right there now if we talk about what he's done in Canada and if it's not up to par then maybe we can talk about oh you dig but that's I think that's for the people of Canada you dig like yeah cuz but it's the people of America in the hood who made him of course you heard about but that he didn't grw up in America he didn't grew up here you heard so if you was an artist from Africa yeah like boy yeah do you think bnab boy has responsibility what do Niger of United stes n I'm taking it back home bro super duper big yes but that's what people then will call a culture vulture cuz you come into a space you know do what the people of that space do benefit from them is is is you understand what we doing like it's bro it's not because he's not take so he's not taking benab boy is Nigerian it's a Nigerian culture that is now popular in America so Drake took an American culture and enriched himself but what he's saying is that he doesn't owe anything to America cuz he's not from yet right okay right yeah I mean [ __ ] he's got no obligation Fair argument he got no obligation Fair argument yeah like he lived if he lived like I don't I don't that's how I see it you heard like that's how I see it you dig but all these [ __ ] we talking about are filthy filthy filthy rich off the opinions of men you heard what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never but what I'm just trying to tell you is how this game is played yeah you heard yeah geez man the more we talk the more they get paid the loser still gets paid too if there is a loser I don't think there's a loser when they all getting Millions off of this [ __ ] I don't think I mean like and I understand end all be all in the whole circle of it but I'm I've been in this [ __ ] for so long I'm miss you can see the politics of really get you to understand of what's really going on and [ __ ] like that this [ __ ] don't pay me a dollar to talk about it yeah hey man how tight you with Joe Bon he calls us those African guys with numbers oh yeah yeah yeah Jo this my guy buts what's up man he cool yeah he's an instigator definely know how to get under people's skin yeah I've known Joan for so long [ __ ] like that um I'm proud of him put himself in his position a whole new Lane to make a shitload of money um where it stem from the culture this what I'm talking about all the ancillary things that you need to get going on if are a artist of some type of success you got to use that to get where you want look at Joe used his startom and rap no matter what it was to able to finesse a whole new Lane of podcasting that true he's pretty big in damn near one of the forefathers of it from our culture right y'all started before him or after him we started after him but now we have more numbers than him hey doesn't matter no numbers do matter I mean no J and get num I'm cool with that but you won't be never be the considered the forefather of this whole no no no no no no no you dig 100% yeah it's Jo Joan numbers is cool I'm cool with that you get paid and I know what's a race you might be number one you heard yeah yeah but you still never be the forefather always going to have that under him like I've created this Lane for your how I feel about Ling hip hop yeah of course I got that under my belt that's mine y can never say that was yours at all yeah okay how much money you made off of it and [ __ ] like that at the end of the day you it's mine you heard Still My still mine so we always ask anybody any guest that we get on the show in closing what do you want to be remembered as man when it's all said and done I want I want to be remembered I want I want them to know that I gave more than I took because I was able to take a lot in my time amen just like that sh hey man I wish you put me on love and& hip-hop bro they got the African love of Hip Hop they got Jamaican love of Hip Hop they got they got any type of Love of Hip Hop we need the South African love of Hip Hop thanks Jim man shout out thank you bro I appreciate you man thank you we appreciate podcast and chill we out of here man boom peace welcome to Black excellenc do not fear for if you do just sip on some Grand and if you still do ask ourselves what would M [Music] do when they ask you do not fear for if you do just say an TV this is the the medicine of censorship this is the pill which one is that one podcast and chill	I'm kind of burnt out so at this point I try to wait till the club is at the most popping or lest moment which is usually that hour right there and I get to enjoy everything that happened tonight and leave out of there and not be all burnt out what what does your wife say bro cuz you're married man you're surrounded by all these girls like you know I mean I'm going to worry about the women yeah is minimal to the money worry about the money more than anything so so a woman doesn't like give you grief when you come home I yeah you get you get grief all the time if you in a relationship no matter what you do if you had a job on Wall Street you get home you're going to get grief no around it you heard yeah there's women everywhere unless you work in the LGBT Club then you know I mean even there you still going to go home and get like it's no way around it you're going to get you know I mean like yeah so you've never had like been home and you had to explain like yo no man I was just doing music video it's just work like I don't know that good you going to explain yourself in every relationship and things like that I got a good woman at home who understands a job I have and things like that so	5	4	7	I'm kind of burnt out so at this point I try to wait till the club is at the most popping or lest moment which is usually that hour right there and I get to enjoy everything that happened tonight and leave out of there and not be all burnt out what what does your wife say bro cuz you're married man you're surrounded by all these girls like you know I mean I'm going to worry about the women yeah is minimal to the money worry about the money more than anything	so so a woman doesn't like give you grief when you come home I yeah you get you get grief all the time if you in a relationship no matter what you do if you had a job on Wall Street you get home you're going to get grief no around it you heard yeah there's women everywhere unless you work in the LGBT Club then you know I mean even there you still going to go home and get like it's no way around it you're going to get you know I mean like yeah so you've never had like been home and you had to explain like yo no man I was just doing music video it's just work like I don't know that good you going to explain yourself in every relationship and things like that I got a good woman at home who understands a job I have and things like that	2,-5,6	3,5,8	2	-5	6	3	5	8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr730VmL-lk	4,054	rr730VmL-lk	2024-06-27 00:00:00	like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano no well Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he showed me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah just understand everybody going there my guy I understand the hate exactly what you're saying yeah bro what's his name I don't it's fine you remember those some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I ain't scared of nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that the dentist yeah dentist got me there what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never [Music] [Music] yo Jimmy you do not look like you want to be here bro like someone forced you to be it's like you have to do that par they're the biggest podcast in Africa you have to be there I never look like I want to be nowhere man you got to part of me but congratulations to yall having the biggest podcast in Africa that that that's very big Africa being one of the biggest continents in the world a lot of people over there shut up man why you so tired bro crazy weekend I've been working all weekend shows different states traveling Planes Trains automobiles you know how I be a little bit too much partying yeah road kill it's tough but what's up how y'all feeling I'm good bro I literally saw um I saw your video uh yesterday for your new single the one you shot in Miami two turn temp yeah yeah how you feel about it bro that [ __ ] is lit man looks like our Vibe bro cuz we've been to Miami myself and and my partner but we never like experienced the Miami night life we were playing in Florida yeah we're DJing in Florida but two South Africans like the diaspora then West Palm Beach as well yeah DJ also yeah like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano what it's a genre it's called a piano no no cuz I'm a piano even you heard like you saw he did the whole Keys thing it has nothing to do with the piano that's where it started but has nothing to do with it these days when when I met charlot man he said the exact same thing he's like oh so you're a podcaster I'm like yeah and then you DJs I'm like no I play I'm a Pian like you're a Pianist man you one talented [ __ ] n it's a genre of music man what kind of genre is that like it's like slowed down house music with a lot of s that African influence that's the only way I can describe it so it's a it's a mix of a marriage house yeah a marriage of house music which originated here at Chicago and stuff and then we slowed it down created a sub genre called guo where guys were sort of rapping but very minimalist raps called guo then the kids were born like in the 2000s late '90s then created a whole meshup of those two genres and it's called Piano cuz a a lot of Americans think it's um afro beats it's not afro beats yeah a lot of the hence I avoided saying afro beats cuz AFR beats is from Nigeria and amap piano is far from afro beat afro beat borrows from am piano now where is amap piano originated from South Africa from the hoods from the Cassis yeah but when I when I was looking at your video bro uh the only thing in my mind was like bro what's a night like out with Jim Jones CU that [ __ ] look lit there [ __ ] everywhere bro um please please describe a night out in Miami with Jim so let's say we going to Miami right now I mean some nice are better than others but been doing it so long it's kind of like the the bare minimum for us to do in Miami just having fun but it still work at the same time like every every I'm I'm not just going out partying for no reason ni like that was we knew what we was kind of getting into we wanted to film a video so we knew we was going to ramp it up a bit take it to the to the highest form going crazy as we could but that actually happened to fall on a big weekend um and one of my dudes was celebrating so everything kind of happened for a reason but yeah Miami could take you for take you for a few a few trips man like okay so so so me and you we get in the car right I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm in Miami I hate you cuz you got a house there you stay there right yeah I got I got I got cribs there so I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm by the strip you know that Miami strip right yeah yeah yeah I mean see that's the thing about Miami when you come to visit Miami that's where people are know at like the strip and things like that I guess stand by Collins and ocean driveing all that people that live there don't really do the strip like that like you just you dig people congregate usually at night time and all the spots that usually go on down there um okay so we got security obviously you got to roll around with security right um yeah I mean that' be the safest thing for me to do so we get out the cut with security when you get to the bouncers are they letting us in cuz it's Jim Jones or are they checking our IDs cuz they've been checking our IDs just to buy beer here bro Che ID everywhere yeah everywhere yeah no I I don't think I produced my ID in since I was a teenager at clubs but yeah you won't need your ID when you with me so we walking in right yeah we going to get in oh do we have a section do we they going to give us a section VIP yeah they going to give us a section we going to get some bottles and let the night ensue got this thing called Power Hour you go to the club maybe like 2:45 to 3:45 in and out no sweat so what's the what's the purpose of that exercise the Power Hour yeah like why would you be in the cloud for an hour why would I be in a club for 4 hours it's Fu I mean I've been part I've been partying since I've been 14 I've been making money to party since I've been 18 I'm kind of burnt out so at this point I try to wait till the club is at the most popping or lest moment which is usually that hour right there and I get to enjoy everything that happened tonight and leave out of there and not be all burnt out what what does your wife say bro cuz you're married man you're surrounded by all these girls like you know I mean I'm going to worry about the women yeah is minimal to the money worry about the money more than anything so so a woman doesn't like give you grief when you come home I yeah you get you get grief all the time if you in a relationship no matter what you do if you had a job on Wall Street you get home you're going to get grief no around it you heard yeah there's women everywhere unless you work in the LGBT Club then you know I mean even there you still going to go home and get like it's no way around it you're going to get you know I mean like yeah so you've never had like been home and you had to explain like yo no man I was just doing music video it's just work like I don't know that good you going to explain yourself in every relationship and things like that I got a good woman at home who understands a job I have and things like that so for the most part but for the most part I'm a very responsible respectable person when when I'm in the streets and when I do have to interact with females and things like that yeah anyway H ladies and gentlemen welcome to another special edition of podcasting chill so CU yeah I am here we're chilling with the [ __ ] Legend Kings of Harlem please make some noise for Jim Jones Jim I gotta say bro I gotta say bro I'm going to be honest with you when I find that your name was GMO geloo gelo I'm like I'm like Jim Jones losing some G points here man what the [ __ ] is that I'm Puerto Rican and a rubian my pops is Puerto Rican the word gelo means William in English is a Spanish Spanish name cuz you know what I was thinking I was thinking that guy who does the show late night you know the short guy who does like the interviews with um this late night comedian man what are the late night shows oh man not uh bad with these oh gosh the late night guy bro uhri or something not Corin O'Brien no not Trevor Noah the other American guy man like uh old new no he's like jimm Kimel Jimmy Kimel jimy he's got that he's got that short guy his name is julo oh I don't I don't I don't got got me messed up I don't even really watch TV like that bro okay I'll be out chasing the money I ain't even got time to do that and if and if I do got some time I'm trying to get a little bit of rest or I'm thinking about money [ __ ] is crucial out here right now you better get to your dollar a lot of [ __ ] about to happen and if you ain't got no coins boy you going to be [ __ ] up you ever been to uh Puerto Rico yeah I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times yeah but business not for the Heritage part of it so like you don't know where like your your your parents were at Familiar of the place where my father's from but I never really got to do the whole go to give with my family understand the roots understand you know I mean like I didn't get to get to that part of it but I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times you find like that's important like to know you it's definitely important I had this um I did an interview not too long ago about um how important the roots are and get to know where my family from know I mean so we'll start to do that pretty soon so so so your dad you know you know your dad right yeah he's passed away oh okay God bless rest in peace what happened to him he passed away yeah like was it um medical thing or yeah natural causes oh damn like when you young or um maybe when I was uh 23 24 oh damn bro SED to hear that man maybe 26 right before my son passed right before my God bless right before my son Bor bro but you like 47 right now I look good for 47y old man no homo you know what I mean thank you very much like what was what's keeping you looking so good is it the yoga yeah a lot of yoga a lot of Pilates I stay in shape um I'm very uh very big on Fitness um work out like five six times a week um it's one of the best ways to stay young and have better chances of living a long life is that why you do it or maybe there's other purpose like you know a lot of people are in gym for their mental health I mean it's very it's very it's very therapeutic I will say that but my main goal is to look good of course but to give me better chances of living forever bro so how you got into rap um I don't know correct me if I'm wrong right but you used to skip church and go to the train station to to rap like no I never skipped Church to go on the train station and rap I skipped Church to go to the train station and go play video games and run the streets and do everything a bad little kid did from the streets of hollow when we was like S8 and n and things like that I don't know if you know about anything about the subway system in New York but that's the pathway system that get you to all five burrows and we definitely was on the subway which maybe we shouldn't have been but we was a little uh loose um for me rapping actually rapping didn't start later on in life to actually uh C and um they I got a deal and things like that and that was the first time me myself really thought about actually raing cuz I'll be honest with you like um dipet I don't really know much about dipet however I know about you guys individually like Cameron old boy like one of my favorite songs uh jul sna had hear that that was Cameron and Jules and jwes he both was on he both old boy and heon yeah why don't you jump on those tracks man those tracks are massive they was already done I was there for the making of both of them incredible tracks yeah and then how did dipit start start like how did you guys start the whole movement um organically kiss him Harem gr up together um talented kids Cam and Mason BL sh was they already was doing music um Everybody gradu graduated high school I didn't get to go to college they went to college they got kicked out they got kicked out they come moved in with me from that that was a uh foundation for them to D into the music you've been in the game for like 20 30 odd years right been in the game for since 1997 how would you describe the different eras of like um hip-hop right especially now cuz um obviously we all know about the Kendrick Lamar song they're not like us but I didn't know how big it was until I landed in in in America and it's like it's like a movement the video yeah it's like huge it's massive bro yeah it's a big record Kendrick did that shout out to Kendrick shout out to my boy Drake but what do you think about like the evolution of hip-hop in all the different areas you've been a part of what do you mean what do I think about it it's a great thing to be a part of something that um you could only dream of everybody doesn't get a chance to be in this game um I've been fortunate enough to be here for so many genres and errors and seen so many people come and go I've watched the smallest artist to the biggest artist who you thow will be here forever and going um I got stories for days I can tell you about um how I feel about it I feel great I feel blessed you know what I mean I feel lucky this [ __ ] don't it's not promised and for me to still be here is definitely a blessing so in the 90s what was the vibe like man like like what in the 90s as far as what in hip-hop yeah it was it was different um 90s was a great era um one of my favorite errors um that was the era we first first came outside um started to get out deal uh very aggressive era uh no social media um cell phones were just being born um everything that you seen you was something that you could grab on to um artists had to go to the towns we couldn't just get on your phone and music you had to go get you couldn't just have access to it so it was a it was it it was a hunt um you had to touch the Tails kiss babies do radio everything like it was just a different ER but who was around like during that time when you who was around like Tupac was did you like meet Tupac Tupac I didn't get to meet Tupac um Tupac passed away what 95 was that yeah right in big in '97 um no I got to see Tupac do a few times in Harlem um that was dope but um not Tupac passed away before we got to get in the record game but I've seen a lot of a lot of artists in my time from a young age to old age we were partying in clubs as teenagers before we even got a record deal and things like that like we were in clubs since high school and [ __ ] like that so any interactions with Big L he was from Harlem right yeah shouts to Big Al Big Al was definitely from Harlem um 139th NFL Big L um I was one of the Cam's uh close friends um actually put cam on a dope record that started to give uh Cam and bloodshed and and her mcgree her was already popping too but guy gave them some notice when it came to R so when you come out like who's who's popping at that time is it git is it mop D it's way before G when we came out I was like Eminem just dropped oh [ __ ] this is Slim Shady not M like Slim Shady I I remember that that was like cam had dropped and Eminem had dropped DMX had dropped Nori had dropped um Big Pun had dropped lud Chris Luda had just started coming out um Nelly Nelly down down baby yeah shouts to coola love um yeah that type of error shouts to shouts to Fat Joe shouts to Buster they was already in it uh Nas was already in it Jay start going crazy that's when he just started taking over with the 1 million 2 million 3 million 4 um yeah very competitive very edgy um lot of the big dogs um had real roots in the streets um especially in the streets of New York so that put that put a real Mystique on everything when it came to the music um all the events with topnotch um it just was a different feel man it was a heavy heavy dope boy era um this was before the drug dealers wanted to be Rappers that's when the rappers wanted to be drug dealers you know what I mean and and that Arrow was was a very dope high impact trenel and Russian it was a was a great error bro I saw an interview you did correct me if I'm wrong I might be paraphrasing but you mentioned a place called the tunnel or something where everybody would be and you guys were [ __ ] [ __ ] in the bathrooms please please describe that manest cuz a place like that couldn't exist right now bro with all this woke [ __ ] I mean yeah and the cancel cult I would say it was probably the greatest Club The Hip hopers have seen and it was during the 90s era it was the Golden Era um in New York they got you had stories about like Studio 54 in that era when everybody used all the biggest of big used to go to Studio 54 well the tunnel was what Studio 54 was to that era to our era and it didn't make so many people and nationalities and genres and just everybody was like a big pumbo all for the sake of the culture you had some of the flyest models to some of the biggest drug dealers biggest gang bangers I mean every former elicit street life you could think of was in the spot along with the biggest artists and rappers and actors and models that you could find into all athletes um it would definitely like that um and was this like per invite or just like anybody could Rock up there nah you couldn't just rock up there for this is '90s entry was like $100 first of all $100 for a club that was the first time we ever heard of it and that was a lot of money back then especially we probably started in '94 going there teenager so $100 was sto a lot of money in New York at the time sneakers wasn't even costing $100 um to get in the club you definitely had to be connected to know somebody or you had to wait on a long line that usually was a block long um they had like an Express line you could pay $100 to get on Express line that'll get you to the door quicker and then you pay your entry fee um streets was blocked off you was a big dog you was able to bring your cars down there I was able to bring like four five of them if I wanted to um yeah the club was just it was different man pull up to the door security they taking people's shoes off they searching your jacket twisting people inside out like they about to go on the Rikers Island I got to I gave security High files I never took my shoes off and not since high school I when we used go in high school we used to get our shoes taken off and things like that make you feel like you going to the cental bookings and [ __ ] like that so what gave you that clout that allowed you to bring four cars in when nobody or you had to be a big dog to bring four cars in when you could just give them a high five instead of removing your shoes and you're young by then like what gives you that CL I was a big dog since a small pup bro J yeah man what gave you those you know credentials at such a young age to suppos all these people cuz Dr Tre was there yeah you putting in four cars not removing shoes I was a good Lord Biden citizen everybody love Jim Jones even even the girls like would you just rock up they say let's go to the bathroom that's it yeah now that well yeah there was a lot of that going on they had a uh the layout was different first of all the club was a block long a whole city block um wow there was like three other four other clubs within the club or spots that look like clubs um the main floor was humongously big the DJ was like a a lifeguard Tower in the middle of the club um you go upstairs they had a VR big V PE upstairs and then go through a door it open up to the bathroom the bathroom was like a unisex Club [ __ ] had a big ass bar in the middle of the bathroom uh bunch of stalls lined up um that [ __ ] was like a hotel inside Lions cocaine everything yeah they was going down a lot of sex was going down there a lot of a lot of drugs was going down in there um yeah the tunnel was definitely uh a landmark to New York City when it comes to the clubs I I definitely um I always think about that club um it did a lot for me in my life um it gave me a lot of imagination when it came to to the culture and the things I was seeing from a young age as to where I want to be and the direction I want to go in yeah we was going there since high school so when you seeing people like Mike Tyson and all these people coming in big cheer on and just having their way as a kid go out got to go to school the next morning you you in school thinking about that [ __ ] like w man this school [ __ ] [ __ ] this school [ __ ] I need some money and I need to go to the tunnel that's all I want to [ __ ] do that's wild man now can you imagine because we in sa right we're looking at all the videos that you guys are pulling out there like we're looking at this lifestyle and then you F Track to 2024 right M and the P didy thing breaks out right I mean i' rather not even to get into that yeah just don't I rather the do I don't you know I mean like it's not it's not my business oh I mean like this you heard God bless it's too much n yeah and it's not me to have an opinion on certain things cuz I ain't perfect I've been through my own [ __ ] in life and I see a lot of people that have even this doing too much just know that I ain't perfect so I choose not to talk on certain [ __ ] that you know what I mean a lot of other people people been talking about I let them keep doing the talk and I got other [ __ ] to work on I'm trying to work on me being a better person yeah I respect I respect that man but were ever part of any gang or like you sounding like the F never hey we don't the F in South Africa man only PS I'm just playing with you yeah I've been affiliated with the bloods in New York City um ENT Tre um yeah so crazy have you ever been to sa like have you ever been to Africa or um I've been to Africa where did you go uh gaban gille damn G to perform there um I went to perform there but uh got some great friends there they actually had ran the country at the time this is before the big yeah yeah overtaking and stuff like that but I had a ball out there I got to go to an island called Pony um that was a dope experience as they took me to the jungles I got to see some of the indigenous people um it was like a a real um life Awakening like and I got to see how also the rich people live out there also like I got to see both sides like that you know what I mean it was it was a great experience I out there for like a week um I haven't been back since but yeah it was dope you never been to South Africa never been to South Africa bro so the reason why I asked that is because like yo bro like American culture has infiltrated South Africa like you can't believe like you know we got people worshiping you guys you know Jim Jones rappers and everything you so we've got rappers who rap just like you and youd say they're like Bloods and Crips but they've never they've never left sa you know cuz that's how influential uh the culture is right but from you when you see or hear that like what do you guys think like do you think is like some [ __ ] like or like leave don't don't follow the gang life you know what I mean oh as far as that is concerned um there's two sides to that this what you do as a gang member that turns it into something that becomes a crime or whatever that end but the Brotherhood part of it is what the most of us joined up for when we coming up in the hood and need that Brotherhood lean on somebody is that type of camaraderie that pretty much stood for and there's a lot of other great attributes that comes with affiliation or you becoming a part of a gang um it gets twisted up because we all come up in these urban communities and our back is against the wall we don't have no opportunities um it's very dormant uh we on top of each other so naturally testosterone testosterone wins in a lot of these situations where these kids find s in bad situations and for that I would tell people to kind of stay away from this type of life um I don't want to oppose my will we all going to experience what we going to experience but I can't tell you the consequences to this type of Lifestyle could be very dear you heard ethal a lot of people don't get to make it where I made it and Escape that lifestyle that could have put me away or could have put me in the dirt I mean so here as a Living testament to tell you that these consequences are terrible the odds on you making it out of that life in a positive manner are very slim I mean but if you are in that life and you taking it as a Brotherhood and try to uplift your brothers I know there's a lot of people around you that are doing a lot of [ __ ] that that that that that's very crazy you know what I mean if you're a part of that and you got the positive minder then you try to uplift your brother and instill some positivity within them because it's very cold out here so I've always been curious bro like so when that when you you you start getting immersed you know or Affiliated in the gang life how does that affect the conversation at home with your parents like your mom your dad and just the domestic you know Dynamics I a't grow my parents I was a grown man since I was like 15 I made my own money since I was like 16 my grandmother left me in high school man I was raising my Sisters by myself in the projects I hustle every I ever got in my life that's why music saved my life I was so grateful to be able to be next to cam and him getting a deal at such a very young age to be able to still be making money off that [ __ ] right now you were U anr for Warner uh music group yeah I was the director of anr for Warner Music Group um years ago uh shouts to Kevin L shouts to Leo Cohen for giving me the opportunity um great opportunity uh I excelled at it extremely very young with a lot of power but didn't understand what I had at hand um didn't have too many people in my corner that were telling me the things that I should have been doing with that type of position as opposed to some type of weird way be hating you know I mean so that's what happened but as you get older you learn you learn and you move on who did you discover while you were in that position uh I would tell you a story I I know I've helped try s uh they come to tra songs that you know today he's always in he's always in we know why no n but he was a young kid at the time and uh they were actually going to cut him from the label we had a big uh um it's like uh one of them uh some events they be doing not the talent shows the uh well was something like that all the artists had to come perform and then they pretty much didn't know that they was on a Cho and block at the time when I was an executive and and he was one of the artists that they were going to cut and I remember Kevin L specifically ask me yo what we should do with him I'm about to cut him I don't know what to do with him and when I heard him uh singing and I saw him perform I was like this is this is one artist you should keep and did that and now we all tra songs on so many dope ass records is it true you could have signed Drake yeah I had a chance to sign uh I had a chance to do business with Drake um through Allan grum blat um when I was doing business at cotch um it was a different era I didn't understand what Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he show me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah understand everybody going at my guy I understand the hate man the hate is so phenomenal it's just how this game go man this game is so tricky man these [ __ ] just like females in this game we ain't going to get into that man there's a lot of uh but wait wait wait so so with Drake like are you are you seeing him perform like try songs or like you just heard of the guy just a conversation Allan called me about signing a kid let me hear some of his music um and I was like the kid know how to rap but I don't know what to do with him his image is crazy and him couple years later heard him on a Wheezy mixtape going crazy I was like wow this kid is about to go wham inside of this business and he sure did and you're know trying to call Weezy like yo man I gotta get that kid or something n he was already signed a young money and jcole did you miss on jcole as well I could have signed J Cole bro jcole was in the studio with me every day and at that point jcole I he's he remind me of a knockoff Drake and not to say it like that but that's who he sounded like he came to my studio every day rapping to these Drake beats rapping like Drake Cadence like Drake he could rap his ass off yeah you heard yeah but it was already a drake out there he had the Caesar it was different like two lightskinn [ __ ] might not K when raing the same but you never know what you got in front of you man you dig and those are lessons I I've took with me to moving forward when I see artists and and I hate artists I always give them more than just hearing just just I got to I got to I gotta try to capture the whole picture I make sure I just don't you mean so I don't miss nothing else because I've missed a few people and I've helped a few people um gain a lot of success in in my time in this industry whether it been by me having a meeting with them or me having influence on them or you know I mean so you know and there's never like any animosity like Jake Cole or Drake never came up to be like yo you could have signed me look at me now bro I mean me and Drake is cool as [ __ ] um I see J Cole I don't think he I mean I don't think that's no he some [ __ ] he might want to keep to himself not to be like that sh the co he not that type of artist he's not a you I mean yeah you did I look I look at as we can see I want to mention an artist who like I'm really fond of like I think this guy's [ __ ] amazing musically talented everything that he touched like turned to Gold who's that uh kid k bro K Cy yeah yeah did you help him with his career yeah I birth K Cy wow J me how so bro bir them nobody would have know who K Cy was at all if I a jump on this remix record but it wasn't even remix he wasn't even a nobody like I tell a story all the time I had a inter used to work for me said he got some dudes that do videos they would like to do a video for me told them come let me see they work they show me their videos the first video they showed me was of the kid Cy record he's on the top of a roof some simple video the record sound more wavy than the opportunity for them to do a video I'm like well if you'll get me the beat to this record I Remix this record and then y'all can shoot the video to that record wow and that's what they did and then um the radio station ripped the record off of YouTube and start playing it at Hot 97 and K Cy was born bro why do you think especially about kid Cy cuz from him when I listen to music right it wasn't really no no other kid Cy record besides the one that I was on yeah man he's not in they don't play his records where I be at at all not to be funny wow bro and we listen to him like all that day and night you know remember only record I know yeah it's the only record I know unless it's like a pop record that everybody know and I and I'm even not paying attention to it but he don't his records don't get played nowhere that i' be at not like that unless I go into a different farm and that's the type of music they playing in one of these funny clubs that play fist pump music and pop music he's not into like you dig like they don't play his music in the clubs I'll be at maybe in Vegas and [ __ ] like that but that's not like they not pumping this [ __ ] in live they not pumping this [ __ ] in Atlanta they not pumping this [ __ ] down the Stafford room or you know what I mean like they I'm not saying nothing like that but I don't hear it in the strip clubs I don't hear like you know what I mean so but he's a very successful person with some of the greats like Kanye to put him in a position to win and [ __ ] like that and I think he's way more better as an actor than he is a musician and that's just my POS that's just my opinion he did I seen him in the movie uh about the race car [ __ ] where he was F the playe like he got a lot of Charisma and [ __ ] like that on on camera for what I could see and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean bro I mean for you as Jim Jones to to see these kids you're introduced to them by an intern and then to hop onto that song it's something selfless you know to just give these unknown kids an opportunity of sharing a song with you where do you think that selflessness comes from how was that unknown kid I'm still an unknown kid anytime I get an opportunity that's an opportunity I should be able to give to somebody else bro the fact that you could even come to our podcast shout out man yeah man you don't even know us exactly what you're saying yeah know us what's his name I don't it's fine you know remember those kids who who did the video for him anyway you know remember I remember like that kids that got the biggest African podcast I'm definitely going to know like them is my guys right family right there appreciate I really mean that that sincerely and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean I I bump in too many people in my life and been across too many people in my journey to actually remember everybody's name but the face and the cause and I mean BR I want to understand right the first time you came up with the concept For Love and Hip Hop where were you what was happening that um that was something like uh me and Christy she had opportunity to do uh her own reality show um and actually fell through and that kind of she was kind of she wanted to do that I can see she was eager about doing that when it fell through kind you know I mean [ __ ] with her mood and [ __ ] like that so so so so so the initial concept what was it was just Chrissy just showing like what's life the initial concept was about she had her own thing going on about a group of women that was supposed to do a reality show had nothing to do with me yeah that [ __ ] fell through she lost that opportunity to end up not going people have been begging me to do reality TV for past couple years at the time and I and you reality TV gold man I refused to do it yeah and then when that happened I was like all right I got I'll do this for you and we'll make it about you and females that have to that are involved with artist such as myself and show what the relationship side is when you're dealing with a high-profile artist and you know what I mean how so that's how that started bro and that thing became a monster super super monster like it's still big till this day bro 100% so do you have like uh ownership in that we we were link a all that you know at that time when maybe the second season we just in a position where we refuse to compromise our dignity for anyone or any dollar and sometimes it be like that you know what I mean um but ain't no stress off my back T my hat to him you no but but but we got to talk about that because you see like this podcast um it's blackowned right it's just me and a couple of other people that are involved in the podcast right and we're always striving for ownership so a lot of um Brands and investors have come to try to buy the podcast and we say know cuz like we believe in ownership and telling the story the way we want to tell it right so what went wrong in that because as a hustler I believe like that's your also end goal MH um it wasn't something that I was just a lot of different layers and [ __ ] like that and I was too worried about doing other things and we had the opportunity to gain all ownership 50% of the whole TV show and all that but it still wasn't worth GE bro that's insane you just let go like that yeah bro it's your brain child bro there is no Love and& Hip Hop without you bro I still got a brain you heard yeah those are for people that don't have a brain that lack creativity people that steal things from you lack what you don't have remember that yeah whether it's money whether it's creativity whatever it is they lack what you don't have ultimately they steal from you you heard I mean we didn't even know C beef if it wasn't for Love and& Hip Hop right yeah yeah yeah definitely yeah bro you gave birth to so many many people man like VI their careers that's the god in me that's why I'm always going to be good yeah she man so any other shows that you're working on like in the pipeline that you want to do I was telling you I working on um a late night show a late night um a late night variety show live in studio audience hopefully we'll be filming in about 40 to 60 days um beautiful concept I do I do believe people going enjoy the show um like I was saying I can't do um a podcast is too personal for me and [ __ ] like that and me watching these podcasts um dealing with these artists me myself don't have the temperament for it you know what I mean um I [ __ ] I T my hat to y'all to have to deal with artists such as myself cuz you never know what type of mood they going to come in you know what I me some of these artists have a air to them where they feel like they better than most and they would never sit and have tea with the with the maintenance guy you heard me myself me going to maintenance guy going to smoke blunts before I get on stage [Music] I live my life and and and currently uh before we let you go man what do you think about the state of hip-hop cuz like statistically numbers wise it's not looking good man e beats has played all over New York now there's now the pianos this is this is what they want you to do this is how to get us to go against each other it's all under the same culture umbrella it's afro music ref I'm a piano I'm a piano explain that what do you mean by that bro yeah R&B what do you mean by that ultimately it's all from under the same origin and creativity of the same person from the same colors is all our thing n but let's be honest Jimmy hip-hop hasn't involved bro when I was listening to Eminem what do you want mean what do you mean hip-hop hasn't evolved you guys are still rapping about the same stuff it don't you you missing the point of what hip-hop is yeah hip-hop has evolved to a point that you can be the music genres that you're told them about can be noticed you think that if there was a hip hop that I'm a piano would be noticed or afro Beach would be noticed think about that and not to take nothing away from y because you always have culture and yes that music might be big within the continent of Africa yeah right but to cross over to American Fame and commercialism you don't think that the hip-hop culture played a big part in that that's that that's a different argument now you want to have a different argument I'm telling you the semantics of where we going with this you dig like you talking about uh the the hip hop music is damn percentage that's how they want us to think when it's really not cuz we all uplifting each other you heard you think that the country music that's going on in the black people winning is not because of the hip-hop culture no no no I think no one is disputing that however so then when you say hip-hop numbers are down and damn for who no I'm talking about I know what you're talking about but damn for who tell me who it's down for because I'm still making the money I make yeah I do believe there's still a lot of artist that's making a shitload of money that they make I don't think it went down for them yeah you know what I mean but I understand what you're talking about they say the numbers and then rock and roll genre might be up like I don't really you heard like that's I'm into this business you heard and it's always up for us you heard cuz this is a business we make money out of nothing it's never a downside to this okay and and that's why I'm saying I think we're having two different conversations here cuz the conversation I'm having is I'm having I'm having right is that in as much as he's saying yeah the numbers are down because they orchestrated and whatever I get that right but also that's why I asked do you think Hip-hop has evolved cuz I grew up on hip-hop right and the same things um quote unquote you guys were rapping about in the '90s how can hipop how can hip hop evolved in the same thing that Africa been Africa been going on since the '90s aren't y going still going through the same thing we are huh we are so how could the music evolve when the music ref the time ah okay get you real stories what you want us to rap about [ __ ] that that we don't have ah we talk about [ __ ] we dream about all the time that's the good The Good Life the colorin the Ros we talk about but the truth is how the music going to change when our position hasn't changed when we still going through the same [ __ ] we've been going through okay and y'all being from Africa should know that more than we know that yeah that's facts that's fact go about that own Cod yeah yeah yeah yeah you know are bro that's a valid fact but how do you feel man like you've come from an era where you guys when what you you said in your raps I mean evolved as far as dition as far as what we rap about cuz we still stuck in the same place but as a business it has evolved to one of big time yeah yeah biggest big time money making machines you can attach yourself to this made some of the richest individuals whether you're the rapper the lawyer the executive like that's true you know what I mean the supply chain but then I think that's why you know when you get the likes of a wz coming out and Kendrick Lamar they stand out like a sore thumb because like they are rapping about but that's what music is about to stand out for those who that want to look like everybody they don't get nowhere why you think Dip set was so successful sucessful yeah because we stood out on purpose we don't want to look like or H or sound like no one else m we want yall to above all see us when we walk in the building and hear us when we get on that [ __ ] mic you heard why would you guys the diplomats I never like where did that come from the diplomats the name the diplomats yeah we diplomats oh ah okay that sounded cool no we diplomats we are Harlem diplomats and we take it as that you heard we go to the Embassy when we land in countries you heard all right okay okay okay I I sort of get that bro so in the business and how you still making money right now like from music just like how is it royalties damn you asking a lot of questions bro no I want to know bro I'm so I've got so many questions I want to ask you bro I'll tell you this music is supposed to be used so you can make as much ancillary dollars as you can because the music ain't promised everybody 15 minutes of fame ranges from a small 15 minutes of fame to a run like we having within that minute the 15 minutes the fame you better do a lot of other things to secure your bag because music is not going to be thing you be able to get paid off forever unless you're the DRS and the J that's not even 1% that's you know what I mean so you think about that so you better have some hustle you better learn how to you better have some business sense you better put your credit in order you better do a few things to secure you if you are artist [ __ ] leverage powerful penda yeah man how do you feel man when these kids these days wrap up about you know trying to act tough and rap about stuff they never done like you guys red about stuff you lived I mean I do believe a lot of these kids are going through a lot of [ __ ] that we went through and then a lot of the kids are talking about [ __ ] that they see but most of the kids are all growing up in the same community that all of that [ __ ] is going on so who tells them they don't have the right to talk about [ __ ] that they're not doing when that's still [ __ ] that they're seeing oh sure Ah that's powerful but the problem I have a problem when they rapping like they did it but they just R from somebody else's Vantage Point understand that but most of these artists that you've seen in the game some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I pretty firm in his in in his music that I'm a believer that he did some of that [ __ ] he can talk about just me I don't know you possibilities are possibilities but some things just seem correct you know mean I can't tell you for sure cuz it is music you know what I mean but some things seem correct [ __ ] man bro you got to come out to man you got to you know we haven't had a proper uh hip-hop concert in sa like since 50 N since you are come on back to the city does concerts man ah those are for old people empd the bigest artist in South Africa right now Hip-Hop Hip-Hop uh there's a guy called nastyc but nesty came here he doesn't know know you f poopa who's that nah F poopa Nigerian West African artist massive he used to pop not now for real still massive bigger than like ber boyo still it's different type of music oh stadiums is 50 60,000 people like what is this following this gu what's his name f poop F poop I don't know him bro he's from Nigeria yeah yeah yeah yeah Nigerian Prett pretty big yeah humongous bro how big was was 50 Cent bro like during his Reign man like how big was 50 Cent [ __ ] retardedly big it wasn't nothing bigger than him was Drake before Drake was dring he was oh [ __ ] he did it like it was like 50 was on a run that he never even touched the club bro like [ __ ] never seen him in the club he only did Arenas I never knew too many artist that just did that you dig like the [ __ ] was super massive every [ __ ] Rec he came out with was was going platinum and I'm just telling you the facts you heard and I always got to speak factual no matter how I feel about a person the [ __ ] was on top Super on top it was no way to knock him off his d i remember Jay-Z dropped the diss track on you did you guys resolve that beef I think you were not happy with him as the president of De jam oh man um we never really had a beef um we had some feuds back and forth through the situations that were going on over other people um and me being who I am I had to hold my ground um but to know that he actually talked about me in multiple of his records mean that I was pretty big in his eyes you dig true true cuz I didn't hear him talk about too many people in his career and if he did talk you talk about you on the record that meant something you know what I mean and I was then so for me that I I I took that like what it was like you dig like yeah J doesn't respond to take the time out to say my name you heard if I'm if I'm not that big of a deal to you you would never ever a am I am I right talk about a person you heard true it's it's a form of respect and ackowledge 100% am I right in saying a lot of [ __ ] are scared of Jay-Z bro cuz we interviewed Dam Ian I don't I don't know I'm not a lot of [ __ ] you heard I'm a man so I couldn't I I couldn't tell you that you heard I ain't scared to nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that that that dentist yeah the dentist got me there you heard you can walk in you could walk we about to fight right now you a dentist walk in you got it you got it like you got it bow down you got it I don't want no smoke let me get out of here M fact word Jimmy before you go man uh what beefs did you have so you had something beef with Jay-Z right no man I just told you we had some feuds stemming from that's beef bro stemming from other things that going on um my problem like it was all part of Us coming up in the game and things were happening we were signing a Rockefeller cam was sign a Rockefeller actually then we got opportunity to Diplomat records um the split between uh Jay and Dame came um artist took sides some took the J side some took the the Dame side which side were you on we was on the Dame side OB Dash yeah Dame Dash that's do you think Dame Dash is misunderstood bro huh you think Dame Dash is misunderstood um too smart for his own good I get that yeah if you had the opportunity again you sometimes being the smartest person in the room could be held against you especially when you want everybody to know that you're the smartest person in the room yeah yeah yeah and I get given a second chance would you still side with Dam never you wouldn't never whoa I never signed a d at all that was no no no like sided with him took his side oh give a second chance I wouldn't have sided with none of them I would we would haveed our [ __ ] business but you learned that with age yeah you heard we had no business butting into that because it wasn't a street beef and this wasn't some [ __ ] that had to do with us ultimately we were holding our [ __ ] down and [ __ ] like that but business-wise if we would if we knew what we knew now we would let them get into that they self y'all can handle that because we got records to put out and music to make and we got our own record label to run you dig and this my hinder what we got going on by us taking sides and that's why I tell people now even when people seeing all the Diplomat [ __ ] like y bro don't don't get in to taking sides with me and my bro because you never know how that might end up and if it end up to a point where we do figure out our situation then I'm looking at you funny now me and you got forever you heard you dig and there are plenty of people that did that and plenty people that didn't and plenty people that showed the same amount of love that he showed to me that it showed to cam when we were going through our imaginary situations and [ __ ] like that cuz it's all imaginary when you know you can figure figure it out now it's a saying that like don't just be in people's business when especially when they've beef and take sides cuz and I I had to learn that a lot I had took me a long time to learn that because of how we come up in the Cod that they supposedly treat us in teach us in the street and [ __ ] like that but sometimes that's not the smallest thing that we can do and then uh push a t did you ever beef with him nah that was some [ __ ] that we was on record um he did some [ __ ] I did some [ __ ] you dig that was it I never followed that I didn't even know did you know there's a pusher T me I ain't got no just know I don't know I know you're from I know you're from Africa and [ __ ] like that but people don't play with me yeah for real and I don't I don't play with people this ain't no playground you heard this is the street it's two ways don't get caught up in a yellow line it's going to be hard to cross bro yeah you heard no I don't trust me I'm from Africa but I saw what happened at the airport so that [ __ ] escalated yeah [ __ ] that was self-defense man God yo bro it looked like that guy was just messing with you bro I wish that could have never happened cuz I was trying to avoid that by all cause but [ __ ] happened sometime man you dig and definitely not not going to allow anybody do anything to me at all bro when I saw that video right like I don't know I just met you today right but I saw when you lifted that guy from the escalator threw him down he literally just went on survival mode bro like it's like there was a button that you switched on and you just like I don't [ __ ] care but yeah yeah no I mean no that's a button that I choose not to push you heard yeah exactly like you can go there quickly I choose to show restraint for a lot of reasons in my life and sometimes it's hard to you dig but where I'm at in life right now I choose positivity or all the other things that come out my way because I know how it is to be negative I was once that negative person that was very aggressive and ready to do something to to you over the minimal alistic of things and [ __ ] like that so I'm blessed to be here to try to be able to show restraint and so so the guy so the guy at the airport you guys on the same plane yeah we on the same plane so you don't have a private jet no I don't have a private jet I'm not a rich man come on Jimmy you made so much money over the years but anyway so you're in the plane what's he what's this guy saying to you like um I don't know man just [ __ ] happens I know just the started from the plane just know that what you see happen on so it starts on the plane you restrain yourself you're like all right cool my dog say whatever you want to say yeah when he gets to the airport I mean the escalator that's when I think he starts hitting you or something right yeah something like that he tried to do something like that and that's what we see man but like I said this is not something that I want to glorify it's not you think he knows who you are um if if he didn't he know now no I'm I'm sorry see sorry cuz some people just provoke I believe he was he was trolling a little bit and things like that which is cool you I mean I'm if if you in New York not time 10 you do know who I am so you know I believe it was a bit of that but God bless man hopefully that they all right hopefully the old man um cool you dig like are you spiritual cuz you mentioned God a lot man yeah I'm very spiritual very spiritual very spiritual I've been my whole family is spiritual and what does that mean in an American sense cuz um us as African for me it means a lot of different things um I was told what the church was as a young age as they drag you to church every Sunday your grandmother your moms and your family and things like that and you really don't understand what that is from that young but as you get older and you go through certain things and you make it through certain things you understand that there is a God and everybody has a relationship with their God different and sometimes going to church doesn't mean that you love your God any less or he loves you any less you dig and you say spiritual I'm very spiritual I say my prayers as much as I can sometime two three four times in a day you dig man doesn't take away from what I do and who I am because I'm still in the line for everything else everybody is in but I know every day that I'm able to wake up and every day I'm able to make a dollar and every day I'm able to keep living the life that I am I should be thankful you heard cuz that's not just me that's a higher vibration that's definitely a God you dig and I'm well aware that I've escaped many things in life that Lord knows I should not be here but then again I should be here cuz he put here for a reason he gives his toughest battles to his strongest people what the Bible say you heard and I've made it through some very tough battles which are minimal to some of the people that I had next to me in their battles you know what I mean so it's like we all got to figure it out Jim Jones thank you so much man and thanks to God for bringing you here man definitely I appreciate for making time for us bro thank you man we appreciate you tired when you got you I appreciate the fact that you could even make it man got any last question yeah man bro you said you've gone through some tough battles and you mentioned how you lost your dad at like 26 but also that you you pretty much raised yourself from the age of 15 you know from that relationship or lack of it like has it affected how you father your children 100% this made me the best father I could be but me my relationship with my father was always a great one even though he wasn't there because every day he wasn't I love them even more I wasn't one of them kids that was bitter you dig I understand that everybody went through something and at that age what he was going through there was a lot of drug addiction and I knew that from a very young age I understood what drugs was and how they were tearing up my family I never held that against my father and I was just blessed able to get back with him before he passed away so he could see that his son was making something out of himself at that time I was already signed to her uh we think we just got the Rockefeller deal so it was a very big deal for me to be able to get back with my father to show him that me somebody that you should be proud of and I know him looking down right now got be like damn I did that so you know and that's how I feel but then in turn TR here my son I don't you know I mean like I just you know mean I pride myself on making sure that I I turned my son into somebody that was way better than I could ever be you oh man yeah that's my guy shout out to you man is your son still wearing Crocs to you br he's a Croc guy you heard yeah Crocs for Life bro Crocs for Life jumping out the beam with a fresh paer Crocs on I don't want to stand him Jimmy before you go your top five rappers all time my top five rappers of all you got to give us your top five bro yeah Tupac definitely Jay-Z Drake um Drake he not like us by default of course um rock cam no Eminem No No whoa not even big you from NY and not to take nothing away from him he's extremely nice it's retardedly nice when it comes to rap but I listen to artists that kind of you know I mean do something for the life that I live and kind of what I've been through and most of these artist or artist that I'm talking about people that you know what I mean like [ __ ] better stop hating on my boy Drake all of a sudden all this Drake land I get it I get it you ain't like us let's not do that let's not forget the 15 years he been spanking [ __ ] around this [ __ ] all all all over this [ __ ] all the alley he been giving most of these artists that are now seeming to be turning on them let's you know let's not some of them gave him their best hits let's not forget the big picture here and [ __ ] like but what the hip-hop culture and this game is built on competition so I yeah but what is he with it you heard you better put your best foot forward but what has Drake given back to the culture oh that you so love here we go um what is he giving back to the culture I seen him take a lot of people on tour and turn them even richer than they already was I I seen him give a lot of people hits that they would have never had if he wouldn't have got on a record things for the culture that wouldn't have happened in turn records that we would have never knew about him to record that the culture love and things like that I mean he's not from here Canada from the hood I don't believe he owes America too much but the monster that give back to where he's from maybe we should ask about what has he done in Canada giving back to his community as opposed to what he giving back to the culture of the United States when this is not where he's from and I think that's the Divide right there now if we talk about what he's done in Canada and if it's not up to par then maybe we can talk about oh you dig but that's I think that's for the people of Canada you dig like yeah cuz but it's the people of America in the hood who made him of course you heard about but that he didn't grw up in America he didn't grew up here you heard so if you was an artist from Africa yeah like boy yeah do you think bnab boy has responsibility what do Niger of United stes n I'm taking it back home bro super duper big yes but that's what people then will call a culture vulture cuz you come into a space you know do what the people of that space do benefit from them is is is you understand what we doing like it's bro it's not because he's not take so he's not taking benab boy is Nigerian it's a Nigerian culture that is now popular in America so Drake took an American culture and enriched himself but what he's saying is that he doesn't owe anything to America cuz he's not from yet right okay right yeah I mean [ __ ] he's got no obligation Fair argument he got no obligation Fair argument yeah like he lived if he lived like I don't I don't that's how I see it you heard like that's how I see it you dig but all these [ __ ] we talking about are filthy filthy filthy rich off the opinions of men you heard what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never but what I'm just trying to tell you is how this game is played yeah you heard yeah geez man the more we talk the more they get paid the loser still gets paid too if there is a loser I don't think there's a loser when they all getting Millions off of this [ __ ] I don't think I mean like and I understand end all be all in the whole circle of it but I'm I've been in this [ __ ] for so long I'm miss you can see the politics of really get you to understand of what's really going on and [ __ ] like that this [ __ ] don't pay me a dollar to talk about it yeah hey man how tight you with Joe Bon he calls us those African guys with numbers oh yeah yeah yeah Jo this my guy buts what's up man he cool yeah he's an instigator definely know how to get under people's skin yeah I've known Joan for so long [ __ ] like that um I'm proud of him put himself in his position a whole new Lane to make a shitload of money um where it stem from the culture this what I'm talking about all the ancillary things that you need to get going on if are a artist of some type of success you got to use that to get where you want look at Joe used his startom and rap no matter what it was to able to finesse a whole new Lane of podcasting that true he's pretty big in damn near one of the forefathers of it from our culture right y'all started before him or after him we started after him but now we have more numbers than him hey doesn't matter no numbers do matter I mean no J and get num I'm cool with that but you won't be never be the considered the forefather of this whole no no no no no no no you dig 100% yeah it's Jo Joan numbers is cool I'm cool with that you get paid and I know what's a race you might be number one you heard yeah yeah but you still never be the forefather always going to have that under him like I've created this Lane for your how I feel about Ling hip hop yeah of course I got that under my belt that's mine y can never say that was yours at all yeah okay how much money you made off of it and [ __ ] like that at the end of the day you it's mine you heard Still My still mine so we always ask anybody any guest that we get on the show in closing what do you want to be remembered as man when it's all said and done I want I want to be remembered I want I want them to know that I gave more than I took because I was able to take a lot in my time amen just like that sh hey man I wish you put me on love and& hip-hop bro they got the African love of Hip Hop they got Jamaican love of Hip Hop they got they got any type of Love of Hip Hop we need the South African love of Hip Hop thanks Jim man shout out thank you bro I appreciate you man thank you we appreciate podcast and chill we out of here man boom peace welcome to Black excellenc do not fear for if you do just sip on some Grand and if you still do ask ourselves what would M [Music] do when they ask you do not fear for if you do just say an TV this is the the medicine of censorship this is the pill which one is that one podcast and chill	for the most part but for the most part I'm a very responsible respectable person when when I'm in the streets and when I do have to interact with females and things like that yeah anyway H ladies and gentlemen welcome to another special edition of podcasting chill so CU yeah I am here we're chilling with the [ __ ] Legend Kings of Harlem please make some noise for Jim Jones Jim I gotta say bro I gotta say bro I'm going to be honest with you when I find that your name was GMO geloo gelo I'm like I'm like Jim Jones losing some G points here man what the [ __ ] is that I'm Puerto Rican and a rubian my pops is Puerto Rican the word gelo means William in English is a Spanish Spanish name cuz you know what I was thinking I was thinking that guy who does the show late night you know the short guy who does like the interviews with um this late night comedian man what are the late night shows oh man not uh bad with these oh gosh the late night guy bro uhri or something not Corin O'Brien no not Trevor Noah the other American guy man like uh old new no he's like jimm Kimel Jimmy Kimel jimy he's got that he's got that short guy his name is julo oh I don't I don't I don't got got me messed up I don't even really	8	6	4	H ladies and gentlemen welcome to another special edition of podcasting chill so CU yeah I am here we're chilling with the [ __ ] Legend Kings of Harlem please make some noise for Jim Jones	Jim I gotta say bro I gotta say bro I'm going to be honest with you when I find that your name was GMO geloo gelo I'm like I'm like Jim Jones losing some G points here man what the [ __ ] is that I'm Puerto Rican and a rubian my pops is Puerto Rican the word gelo means William in English is a Spanish Spanish name cuz you know what I was thinking I was thinking that guy who does the show late night you know the short guy who does like the interviews with um this late night comedian man what are the late night shows oh man not uh bad with these oh gosh the late night guy bro uhri or something not Corin O'Brien no not Trevor Noah the other American guy man like uh old new no he's like jimm Kimel Jimmy Kimel jimy he's got that he's got that short guy his name is julo oh I don't I don't I don't got got me messed up I don't even really	8,6,9	3,-5,4	8	6	9	3	-5	4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr730VmL-lk	4,054	rr730VmL-lk	2024-06-27 00:00:00	like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano no well Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he showed me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah just understand everybody going there my guy I understand the hate exactly what you're saying yeah bro what's his name I don't it's fine you remember those some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I ain't scared of nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that the dentist yeah dentist got me there what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never [Music] [Music] yo Jimmy you do not look like you want to be here bro like someone forced you to be it's like you have to do that par they're the biggest podcast in Africa you have to be there I never look like I want to be nowhere man you got to part of me but congratulations to yall having the biggest podcast in Africa that that that's very big Africa being one of the biggest continents in the world a lot of people over there shut up man why you so tired bro crazy weekend I've been working all weekend shows different states traveling Planes Trains automobiles you know how I be a little bit too much partying yeah road kill it's tough but what's up how y'all feeling I'm good bro I literally saw um I saw your video uh yesterday for your new single the one you shot in Miami two turn temp yeah yeah how you feel about it bro that [ __ ] is lit man looks like our Vibe bro cuz we've been to Miami myself and and my partner but we never like experienced the Miami night life we were playing in Florida yeah we're DJing in Florida but two South Africans like the diaspora then West Palm Beach as well yeah DJ also yeah like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano what it's a genre it's called a piano no no cuz I'm a piano even you heard like you saw he did the whole Keys thing it has nothing to do with the piano that's where it started but has nothing to do with it these days when when I met charlot man he said the exact same thing he's like oh so you're a podcaster I'm like yeah and then you DJs I'm like no I play I'm a Pian like you're a Pianist man you one talented [ __ ] n it's a genre of music man what kind of genre is that like it's like slowed down house music with a lot of s that African influence that's the only way I can describe it so it's a it's a mix of a marriage house yeah a marriage of house music which originated here at Chicago and stuff and then we slowed it down created a sub genre called guo where guys were sort of rapping but very minimalist raps called guo then the kids were born like in the 2000s late '90s then created a whole meshup of those two genres and it's called Piano cuz a a lot of Americans think it's um afro beats it's not afro beats yeah a lot of the hence I avoided saying afro beats cuz AFR beats is from Nigeria and amap piano is far from afro beat afro beat borrows from am piano now where is amap piano originated from South Africa from the hoods from the Cassis yeah but when I when I was looking at your video bro uh the only thing in my mind was like bro what's a night like out with Jim Jones CU that [ __ ] look lit there [ __ ] everywhere bro um please please describe a night out in Miami with Jim so let's say we going to Miami right now I mean some nice are better than others but been doing it so long it's kind of like the the bare minimum for us to do in Miami just having fun but it still work at the same time like every every I'm I'm not just going out partying for no reason ni like that was we knew what we was kind of getting into we wanted to film a video so we knew we was going to ramp it up a bit take it to the to the highest form going crazy as we could but that actually happened to fall on a big weekend um and one of my dudes was celebrating so everything kind of happened for a reason but yeah Miami could take you for take you for a few a few trips man like okay so so so me and you we get in the car right I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm in Miami I hate you cuz you got a house there you stay there right yeah I got I got I got cribs there so I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm by the strip you know that Miami strip right yeah yeah yeah I mean see that's the thing about Miami when you come to visit Miami that's where people are know at like the strip and things like that I guess stand by Collins and ocean driveing all that people that live there don't really do the strip like that like you just you dig people congregate usually at night time and all the spots that usually go on down there um okay so we got security obviously you got to roll around with security right um yeah I mean that' be the safest thing for me to do so we get out the cut with security when you get to the bouncers are they letting us in cuz it's Jim Jones or are they checking our IDs cuz they've been checking our IDs just to buy beer here bro Che ID everywhere yeah everywhere yeah no I I don't think I produced my ID in since I was a teenager at clubs but yeah you won't need your ID when you with me so we walking in right yeah we going to get in oh do we have a section do we they going to give us a section VIP yeah they going to give us a section we going to get some bottles and let the night ensue got this thing called Power Hour you go to the club maybe like 2:45 to 3:45 in and out no sweat so what's the what's the purpose of that exercise the Power Hour yeah like why would you be in the cloud for an hour why would I be in a club for 4 hours it's Fu I mean I've been part I've been partying since I've been 14 I've been making money to party since I've been 18 I'm kind of burnt out so at this point I try to wait till the club is at the most popping or lest moment which is usually that hour right there and I get to enjoy everything that happened tonight and leave out of there and not be all burnt out what what does your wife say bro cuz you're married man you're surrounded by all these girls like you know I mean I'm going to worry about the women yeah is minimal to the money worry about the money more than anything so so a woman doesn't like give you grief when you come home I yeah you get you get grief all the time if you in a relationship no matter what you do if you had a job on Wall Street you get home you're going to get grief no around it you heard yeah there's women everywhere unless you work in the LGBT Club then you know I mean even there you still going to go home and get like it's no way around it you're going to get you know I mean like yeah so you've never had like been home and you had to explain like yo no man I was just doing music video it's just work like I don't know that good you going to explain yourself in every relationship and things like that I got a good woman at home who understands a job I have and things like that so for the most part but for the most part I'm a very responsible respectable person when when I'm in the streets and when I do have to interact with females and things like that yeah anyway H ladies and gentlemen welcome to another special edition of podcasting chill so CU yeah I am here we're chilling with the [ __ ] Legend Kings of Harlem please make some noise for Jim Jones Jim I gotta say bro I gotta say bro I'm going to be honest with you when I find that your name was GMO geloo gelo I'm like I'm like Jim Jones losing some G points here man what the [ __ ] is that I'm Puerto Rican and a rubian my pops is Puerto Rican the word gelo means William in English is a Spanish Spanish name cuz you know what I was thinking I was thinking that guy who does the show late night you know the short guy who does like the interviews with um this late night comedian man what are the late night shows oh man not uh bad with these oh gosh the late night guy bro uhri or something not Corin O'Brien no not Trevor Noah the other American guy man like uh old new no he's like jimm Kimel Jimmy Kimel jimy he's got that he's got that short guy his name is julo oh I don't I don't I don't got got me messed up I don't even really watch TV like that bro okay I'll be out chasing the money I ain't even got time to do that and if and if I do got some time I'm trying to get a little bit of rest or I'm thinking about money [ __ ] is crucial out here right now you better get to your dollar a lot of [ __ ] about to happen and if you ain't got no coins boy you going to be [ __ ] up you ever been to uh Puerto Rico yeah I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times yeah but business not for the Heritage part of it so like you don't know where like your your your parents were at Familiar of the place where my father's from but I never really got to do the whole go to give with my family understand the roots understand you know I mean like I didn't get to get to that part of it but I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times you find like that's important like to know you it's definitely important I had this um I did an interview not too long ago about um how important the roots are and get to know where my family from know I mean so we'll start to do that pretty soon so so so your dad you know you know your dad right yeah he's passed away oh okay God bless rest in peace what happened to him he passed away yeah like was it um medical thing or yeah natural causes oh damn like when you young or um maybe when I was uh 23 24 oh damn bro SED to hear that man maybe 26 right before my son passed right before my God bless right before my son Bor bro but you like 47 right now I look good for 47y old man no homo you know what I mean thank you very much like what was what's keeping you looking so good is it the yoga yeah a lot of yoga a lot of Pilates I stay in shape um I'm very uh very big on Fitness um work out like five six times a week um it's one of the best ways to stay young and have better chances of living a long life is that why you do it or maybe there's other purpose like you know a lot of people are in gym for their mental health I mean it's very it's very it's very therapeutic I will say that but my main goal is to look good of course but to give me better chances of living forever bro so how you got into rap um I don't know correct me if I'm wrong right but you used to skip church and go to the train station to to rap like no I never skipped Church to go on the train station and rap I skipped Church to go to the train station and go play video games and run the streets and do everything a bad little kid did from the streets of hollow when we was like S8 and n and things like that I don't know if you know about anything about the subway system in New York but that's the pathway system that get you to all five burrows and we definitely was on the subway which maybe we shouldn't have been but we was a little uh loose um for me rapping actually rapping didn't start later on in life to actually uh C and um they I got a deal and things like that and that was the first time me myself really thought about actually raing cuz I'll be honest with you like um dipet I don't really know much about dipet however I know about you guys individually like Cameron old boy like one of my favorite songs uh jul sna had hear that that was Cameron and Jules and jwes he both was on he both old boy and heon yeah why don't you jump on those tracks man those tracks are massive they was already done I was there for the making of both of them incredible tracks yeah and then how did dipit start start like how did you guys start the whole movement um organically kiss him Harem gr up together um talented kids Cam and Mason BL sh was they already was doing music um Everybody gradu graduated high school I didn't get to go to college they went to college they got kicked out they got kicked out they come moved in with me from that that was a uh foundation for them to D into the music you've been in the game for like 20 30 odd years right been in the game for since 1997 how would you describe the different eras of like um hip-hop right especially now cuz um obviously we all know about the Kendrick Lamar song they're not like us but I didn't know how big it was until I landed in in in America and it's like it's like a movement the video yeah it's like huge it's massive bro yeah it's a big record Kendrick did that shout out to Kendrick shout out to my boy Drake but what do you think about like the evolution of hip-hop in all the different areas you've been a part of what do you mean what do I think about it it's a great thing to be a part of something that um you could only dream of everybody doesn't get a chance to be in this game um I've been fortunate enough to be here for so many genres and errors and seen so many people come and go I've watched the smallest artist to the biggest artist who you thow will be here forever and going um I got stories for days I can tell you about um how I feel about it I feel great I feel blessed you know what I mean I feel lucky this [ __ ] don't it's not promised and for me to still be here is definitely a blessing so in the 90s what was the vibe like man like like what in the 90s as far as what in hip-hop yeah it was it was different um 90s was a great era um one of my favorite errors um that was the era we first first came outside um started to get out deal uh very aggressive era uh no social media um cell phones were just being born um everything that you seen you was something that you could grab on to um artists had to go to the towns we couldn't just get on your phone and music you had to go get you couldn't just have access to it so it was a it was it it was a hunt um you had to touch the Tails kiss babies do radio everything like it was just a different ER but who was around like during that time when you who was around like Tupac was did you like meet Tupac Tupac I didn't get to meet Tupac um Tupac passed away what 95 was that yeah right in big in '97 um no I got to see Tupac do a few times in Harlem um that was dope but um not Tupac passed away before we got to get in the record game but I've seen a lot of a lot of artists in my time from a young age to old age we were partying in clubs as teenagers before we even got a record deal and things like that like we were in clubs since high school and [ __ ] like that so any interactions with Big L he was from Harlem right yeah shouts to Big Al Big Al was definitely from Harlem um 139th NFL Big L um I was one of the Cam's uh close friends um actually put cam on a dope record that started to give uh Cam and bloodshed and and her mcgree her was already popping too but guy gave them some notice when it came to R so when you come out like who's who's popping at that time is it git is it mop D it's way before G when we came out I was like Eminem just dropped oh [ __ ] this is Slim Shady not M like Slim Shady I I remember that that was like cam had dropped and Eminem had dropped DMX had dropped Nori had dropped um Big Pun had dropped lud Chris Luda had just started coming out um Nelly Nelly down down baby yeah shouts to coola love um yeah that type of error shouts to shouts to Fat Joe shouts to Buster they was already in it uh Nas was already in it Jay start going crazy that's when he just started taking over with the 1 million 2 million 3 million 4 um yeah very competitive very edgy um lot of the big dogs um had real roots in the streets um especially in the streets of New York so that put that put a real Mystique on everything when it came to the music um all the events with topnotch um it just was a different feel man it was a heavy heavy dope boy era um this was before the drug dealers wanted to be Rappers that's when the rappers wanted to be drug dealers you know what I mean and and that Arrow was was a very dope high impact trenel and Russian it was a was a great error bro I saw an interview you did correct me if I'm wrong I might be paraphrasing but you mentioned a place called the tunnel or something where everybody would be and you guys were [ __ ] [ __ ] in the bathrooms please please describe that manest cuz a place like that couldn't exist right now bro with all this woke [ __ ] I mean yeah and the cancel cult I would say it was probably the greatest Club The Hip hopers have seen and it was during the 90s era it was the Golden Era um in New York they got you had stories about like Studio 54 in that era when everybody used all the biggest of big used to go to Studio 54 well the tunnel was what Studio 54 was to that era to our era and it didn't make so many people and nationalities and genres and just everybody was like a big pumbo all for the sake of the culture you had some of the flyest models to some of the biggest drug dealers biggest gang bangers I mean every former elicit street life you could think of was in the spot along with the biggest artists and rappers and actors and models that you could find into all athletes um it would definitely like that um and was this like per invite or just like anybody could Rock up there nah you couldn't just rock up there for this is '90s entry was like $100 first of all $100 for a club that was the first time we ever heard of it and that was a lot of money back then especially we probably started in '94 going there teenager so $100 was sto a lot of money in New York at the time sneakers wasn't even costing $100 um to get in the club you definitely had to be connected to know somebody or you had to wait on a long line that usually was a block long um they had like an Express line you could pay $100 to get on Express line that'll get you to the door quicker and then you pay your entry fee um streets was blocked off you was a big dog you was able to bring your cars down there I was able to bring like four five of them if I wanted to um yeah the club was just it was different man pull up to the door security they taking people's shoes off they searching your jacket twisting people inside out like they about to go on the Rikers Island I got to I gave security High files I never took my shoes off and not since high school I when we used go in high school we used to get our shoes taken off and things like that make you feel like you going to the cental bookings and [ __ ] like that so what gave you that clout that allowed you to bring four cars in when nobody or you had to be a big dog to bring four cars in when you could just give them a high five instead of removing your shoes and you're young by then like what gives you that CL I was a big dog since a small pup bro J yeah man what gave you those you know credentials at such a young age to suppos all these people cuz Dr Tre was there yeah you putting in four cars not removing shoes I was a good Lord Biden citizen everybody love Jim Jones even even the girls like would you just rock up they say let's go to the bathroom that's it yeah now that well yeah there was a lot of that going on they had a uh the layout was different first of all the club was a block long a whole city block um wow there was like three other four other clubs within the club or spots that look like clubs um the main floor was humongously big the DJ was like a a lifeguard Tower in the middle of the club um you go upstairs they had a VR big V PE upstairs and then go through a door it open up to the bathroom the bathroom was like a unisex Club [ __ ] had a big ass bar in the middle of the bathroom uh bunch of stalls lined up um that [ __ ] was like a hotel inside Lions cocaine everything yeah they was going down a lot of sex was going down there a lot of a lot of drugs was going down in there um yeah the tunnel was definitely uh a landmark to New York City when it comes to the clubs I I definitely um I always think about that club um it did a lot for me in my life um it gave me a lot of imagination when it came to to the culture and the things I was seeing from a young age as to where I want to be and the direction I want to go in yeah we was going there since high school so when you seeing people like Mike Tyson and all these people coming in big cheer on and just having their way as a kid go out got to go to school the next morning you you in school thinking about that [ __ ] like w man this school [ __ ] [ __ ] this school [ __ ] I need some money and I need to go to the tunnel that's all I want to [ __ ] do that's wild man now can you imagine because we in sa right we're looking at all the videos that you guys are pulling out there like we're looking at this lifestyle and then you F Track to 2024 right M and the P didy thing breaks out right I mean i' rather not even to get into that yeah just don't I rather the do I don't you know I mean like it's not it's not my business oh I mean like this you heard God bless it's too much n yeah and it's not me to have an opinion on certain things cuz I ain't perfect I've been through my own [ __ ] in life and I see a lot of people that have even this doing too much just know that I ain't perfect so I choose not to talk on certain [ __ ] that you know what I mean a lot of other people people been talking about I let them keep doing the talk and I got other [ __ ] to work on I'm trying to work on me being a better person yeah I respect I respect that man but were ever part of any gang or like you sounding like the F never hey we don't the F in South Africa man only PS I'm just playing with you yeah I've been affiliated with the bloods in New York City um ENT Tre um yeah so crazy have you ever been to sa like have you ever been to Africa or um I've been to Africa where did you go uh gaban gille damn G to perform there um I went to perform there but uh got some great friends there they actually had ran the country at the time this is before the big yeah yeah overtaking and stuff like that but I had a ball out there I got to go to an island called Pony um that was a dope experience as they took me to the jungles I got to see some of the indigenous people um it was like a a real um life Awakening like and I got to see how also the rich people live out there also like I got to see both sides like that you know what I mean it was it was a great experience I out there for like a week um I haven't been back since but yeah it was dope you never been to South Africa never been to South Africa bro so the reason why I asked that is because like yo bro like American culture has infiltrated South Africa like you can't believe like you know we got people worshiping you guys you know Jim Jones rappers and everything you so we've got rappers who rap just like you and youd say they're like Bloods and Crips but they've never they've never left sa you know cuz that's how influential uh the culture is right but from you when you see or hear that like what do you guys think like do you think is like some [ __ ] like or like leave don't don't follow the gang life you know what I mean oh as far as that is concerned um there's two sides to that this what you do as a gang member that turns it into something that becomes a crime or whatever that end but the Brotherhood part of it is what the most of us joined up for when we coming up in the hood and need that Brotherhood lean on somebody is that type of camaraderie that pretty much stood for and there's a lot of other great attributes that comes with affiliation or you becoming a part of a gang um it gets twisted up because we all come up in these urban communities and our back is against the wall we don't have no opportunities um it's very dormant uh we on top of each other so naturally testosterone testosterone wins in a lot of these situations where these kids find s in bad situations and for that I would tell people to kind of stay away from this type of life um I don't want to oppose my will we all going to experience what we going to experience but I can't tell you the consequences to this type of Lifestyle could be very dear you heard ethal a lot of people don't get to make it where I made it and Escape that lifestyle that could have put me away or could have put me in the dirt I mean so here as a Living testament to tell you that these consequences are terrible the odds on you making it out of that life in a positive manner are very slim I mean but if you are in that life and you taking it as a Brotherhood and try to uplift your brothers I know there's a lot of people around you that are doing a lot of [ __ ] that that that that that's very crazy you know what I mean if you're a part of that and you got the positive minder then you try to uplift your brother and instill some positivity within them because it's very cold out here so I've always been curious bro like so when that when you you you start getting immersed you know or Affiliated in the gang life how does that affect the conversation at home with your parents like your mom your dad and just the domestic you know Dynamics I a't grow my parents I was a grown man since I was like 15 I made my own money since I was like 16 my grandmother left me in high school man I was raising my Sisters by myself in the projects I hustle every I ever got in my life that's why music saved my life I was so grateful to be able to be next to cam and him getting a deal at such a very young age to be able to still be making money off that [ __ ] right now you were U anr for Warner uh music group yeah I was the director of anr for Warner Music Group um years ago uh shouts to Kevin L shouts to Leo Cohen for giving me the opportunity um great opportunity uh I excelled at it extremely very young with a lot of power but didn't understand what I had at hand um didn't have too many people in my corner that were telling me the things that I should have been doing with that type of position as opposed to some type of weird way be hating you know I mean so that's what happened but as you get older you learn you learn and you move on who did you discover while you were in that position uh I would tell you a story I I know I've helped try s uh they come to tra songs that you know today he's always in he's always in we know why no n but he was a young kid at the time and uh they were actually going to cut him from the label we had a big uh um it's like uh one of them uh some events they be doing not the talent shows the uh well was something like that all the artists had to come perform and then they pretty much didn't know that they was on a Cho and block at the time when I was an executive and and he was one of the artists that they were going to cut and I remember Kevin L specifically ask me yo what we should do with him I'm about to cut him I don't know what to do with him and when I heard him uh singing and I saw him perform I was like this is this is one artist you should keep and did that and now we all tra songs on so many dope ass records is it true you could have signed Drake yeah I had a chance to sign uh I had a chance to do business with Drake um through Allan grum blat um when I was doing business at cotch um it was a different era I didn't understand what Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he show me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah understand everybody going at my guy I understand the hate man the hate is so phenomenal it's just how this game go man this game is so tricky man these [ __ ] just like females in this game we ain't going to get into that man there's a lot of uh but wait wait wait so so with Drake like are you are you seeing him perform like try songs or like you just heard of the guy just a conversation Allan called me about signing a kid let me hear some of his music um and I was like the kid know how to rap but I don't know what to do with him his image is crazy and him couple years later heard him on a Wheezy mixtape going crazy I was like wow this kid is about to go wham inside of this business and he sure did and you're know trying to call Weezy like yo man I gotta get that kid or something n he was already signed a young money and jcole did you miss on jcole as well I could have signed J Cole bro jcole was in the studio with me every day and at that point jcole I he's he remind me of a knockoff Drake and not to say it like that but that's who he sounded like he came to my studio every day rapping to these Drake beats rapping like Drake Cadence like Drake he could rap his ass off yeah you heard yeah but it was already a drake out there he had the Caesar it was different like two lightskinn [ __ ] might not K when raing the same but you never know what you got in front of you man you dig and those are lessons I I've took with me to moving forward when I see artists and and I hate artists I always give them more than just hearing just just I got to I got to I gotta try to capture the whole picture I make sure I just don't you mean so I don't miss nothing else because I've missed a few people and I've helped a few people um gain a lot of success in in my time in this industry whether it been by me having a meeting with them or me having influence on them or you know I mean so you know and there's never like any animosity like Jake Cole or Drake never came up to be like yo you could have signed me look at me now bro I mean me and Drake is cool as [ __ ] um I see J Cole I don't think he I mean I don't think that's no he some [ __ ] he might want to keep to himself not to be like that sh the co he not that type of artist he's not a you I mean yeah you did I look I look at as we can see I want to mention an artist who like I'm really fond of like I think this guy's [ __ ] amazing musically talented everything that he touched like turned to Gold who's that uh kid k bro K Cy yeah yeah did you help him with his career yeah I birth K Cy wow J me how so bro bir them nobody would have know who K Cy was at all if I a jump on this remix record but it wasn't even remix he wasn't even a nobody like I tell a story all the time I had a inter used to work for me said he got some dudes that do videos they would like to do a video for me told them come let me see they work they show me their videos the first video they showed me was of the kid Cy record he's on the top of a roof some simple video the record sound more wavy than the opportunity for them to do a video I'm like well if you'll get me the beat to this record I Remix this record and then y'all can shoot the video to that record wow and that's what they did and then um the radio station ripped the record off of YouTube and start playing it at Hot 97 and K Cy was born bro why do you think especially about kid Cy cuz from him when I listen to music right it wasn't really no no other kid Cy record besides the one that I was on yeah man he's not in they don't play his records where I be at at all not to be funny wow bro and we listen to him like all that day and night you know remember only record I know yeah it's the only record I know unless it's like a pop record that everybody know and I and I'm even not paying attention to it but he don't his records don't get played nowhere that i' be at not like that unless I go into a different farm and that's the type of music they playing in one of these funny clubs that play fist pump music and pop music he's not into like you dig like they don't play his music in the clubs I'll be at maybe in Vegas and [ __ ] like that but that's not like they not pumping this [ __ ] in live they not pumping this [ __ ] in Atlanta they not pumping this [ __ ] down the Stafford room or you know what I mean like they I'm not saying nothing like that but I don't hear it in the strip clubs I don't hear like you know what I mean so but he's a very successful person with some of the greats like Kanye to put him in a position to win and [ __ ] like that and I think he's way more better as an actor than he is a musician and that's just my POS that's just my opinion he did I seen him in the movie uh about the race car [ __ ] where he was F the playe like he got a lot of Charisma and [ __ ] like that on on camera for what I could see and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean bro I mean for you as Jim Jones to to see these kids you're introduced to them by an intern and then to hop onto that song it's something selfless you know to just give these unknown kids an opportunity of sharing a song with you where do you think that selflessness comes from how was that unknown kid I'm still an unknown kid anytime I get an opportunity that's an opportunity I should be able to give to somebody else bro the fact that you could even come to our podcast shout out man yeah man you don't even know us exactly what you're saying yeah know us what's his name I don't it's fine you know remember those kids who who did the video for him anyway you know remember I remember like that kids that got the biggest African podcast I'm definitely going to know like them is my guys right family right there appreciate I really mean that that sincerely and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean I I bump in too many people in my life and been across too many people in my journey to actually remember everybody's name but the face and the cause and I mean BR I want to understand right the first time you came up with the concept For Love and Hip Hop where were you what was happening that um that was something like uh me and Christy she had opportunity to do uh her own reality show um and actually fell through and that kind of she was kind of she wanted to do that I can see she was eager about doing that when it fell through kind you know I mean [ __ ] with her mood and [ __ ] like that so so so so so the initial concept what was it was just Chrissy just showing like what's life the initial concept was about she had her own thing going on about a group of women that was supposed to do a reality show had nothing to do with me yeah that [ __ ] fell through she lost that opportunity to end up not going people have been begging me to do reality TV for past couple years at the time and I and you reality TV gold man I refused to do it yeah and then when that happened I was like all right I got I'll do this for you and we'll make it about you and females that have to that are involved with artist such as myself and show what the relationship side is when you're dealing with a high-profile artist and you know what I mean how so that's how that started bro and that thing became a monster super super monster like it's still big till this day bro 100% so do you have like uh ownership in that we we were link a all that you know at that time when maybe the second season we just in a position where we refuse to compromise our dignity for anyone or any dollar and sometimes it be like that you know what I mean um but ain't no stress off my back T my hat to him you no but but but we got to talk about that because you see like this podcast um it's blackowned right it's just me and a couple of other people that are involved in the podcast right and we're always striving for ownership so a lot of um Brands and investors have come to try to buy the podcast and we say know cuz like we believe in ownership and telling the story the way we want to tell it right so what went wrong in that because as a hustler I believe like that's your also end goal MH um it wasn't something that I was just a lot of different layers and [ __ ] like that and I was too worried about doing other things and we had the opportunity to gain all ownership 50% of the whole TV show and all that but it still wasn't worth GE bro that's insane you just let go like that yeah bro it's your brain child bro there is no Love and& Hip Hop without you bro I still got a brain you heard yeah those are for people that don't have a brain that lack creativity people that steal things from you lack what you don't have remember that yeah whether it's money whether it's creativity whatever it is they lack what you don't have ultimately they steal from you you heard I mean we didn't even know C beef if it wasn't for Love and& Hip Hop right yeah yeah yeah definitely yeah bro you gave birth to so many many people man like VI their careers that's the god in me that's why I'm always going to be good yeah she man so any other shows that you're working on like in the pipeline that you want to do I was telling you I working on um a late night show a late night um a late night variety show live in studio audience hopefully we'll be filming in about 40 to 60 days um beautiful concept I do I do believe people going enjoy the show um like I was saying I can't do um a podcast is too personal for me and [ __ ] like that and me watching these podcasts um dealing with these artists me myself don't have the temperament for it you know what I mean um I [ __ ] I T my hat to y'all to have to deal with artists such as myself cuz you never know what type of mood they going to come in you know what I me some of these artists have a air to them where they feel like they better than most and they would never sit and have tea with the with the maintenance guy you heard me myself me going to maintenance guy going to smoke blunts before I get on stage [Music] I live my life and and and currently uh before we let you go man what do you think about the state of hip-hop cuz like statistically numbers wise it's not looking good man e beats has played all over New York now there's now the pianos this is this is what they want you to do this is how to get us to go against each other it's all under the same culture umbrella it's afro music ref I'm a piano I'm a piano explain that what do you mean by that bro yeah R&B what do you mean by that ultimately it's all from under the same origin and creativity of the same person from the same colors is all our thing n but let's be honest Jimmy hip-hop hasn't involved bro when I was listening to Eminem what do you want mean what do you mean hip-hop hasn't evolved you guys are still rapping about the same stuff it don't you you missing the point of what hip-hop is yeah hip-hop has evolved to a point that you can be the music genres that you're told them about can be noticed you think that if there was a hip hop that I'm a piano would be noticed or afro Beach would be noticed think about that and not to take nothing away from y because you always have culture and yes that music might be big within the continent of Africa yeah right but to cross over to American Fame and commercialism you don't think that the hip-hop culture played a big part in that that's that that's a different argument now you want to have a different argument I'm telling you the semantics of where we going with this you dig like you talking about uh the the hip hop music is damn percentage that's how they want us to think when it's really not cuz we all uplifting each other you heard you think that the country music that's going on in the black people winning is not because of the hip-hop culture no no no I think no one is disputing that however so then when you say hip-hop numbers are down and damn for who no I'm talking about I know what you're talking about but damn for who tell me who it's down for because I'm still making the money I make yeah I do believe there's still a lot of artist that's making a shitload of money that they make I don't think it went down for them yeah you know what I mean but I understand what you're talking about they say the numbers and then rock and roll genre might be up like I don't really you heard like that's I'm into this business you heard and it's always up for us you heard cuz this is a business we make money out of nothing it's never a downside to this okay and and that's why I'm saying I think we're having two different conversations here cuz the conversation I'm having is I'm having I'm having right is that in as much as he's saying yeah the numbers are down because they orchestrated and whatever I get that right but also that's why I asked do you think Hip-hop has evolved cuz I grew up on hip-hop right and the same things um quote unquote you guys were rapping about in the '90s how can hipop how can hip hop evolved in the same thing that Africa been Africa been going on since the '90s aren't y going still going through the same thing we are huh we are so how could the music evolve when the music ref the time ah okay get you real stories what you want us to rap about [ __ ] that that we don't have ah we talk about [ __ ] we dream about all the time that's the good The Good Life the colorin the Ros we talk about but the truth is how the music going to change when our position hasn't changed when we still going through the same [ __ ] we've been going through okay and y'all being from Africa should know that more than we know that yeah that's facts that's fact go about that own Cod yeah yeah yeah yeah you know are bro that's a valid fact but how do you feel man like you've come from an era where you guys when what you you said in your raps I mean evolved as far as dition as far as what we rap about cuz we still stuck in the same place but as a business it has evolved to one of big time yeah yeah biggest big time money making machines you can attach yourself to this made some of the richest individuals whether you're the rapper the lawyer the executive like that's true you know what I mean the supply chain but then I think that's why you know when you get the likes of a wz coming out and Kendrick Lamar they stand out like a sore thumb because like they are rapping about but that's what music is about to stand out for those who that want to look like everybody they don't get nowhere why you think Dip set was so successful sucessful yeah because we stood out on purpose we don't want to look like or H or sound like no one else m we want yall to above all see us when we walk in the building and hear us when we get on that [ __ ] mic you heard why would you guys the diplomats I never like where did that come from the diplomats the name the diplomats yeah we diplomats oh ah okay that sounded cool no we diplomats we are Harlem diplomats and we take it as that you heard we go to the Embassy when we land in countries you heard all right okay okay okay I I sort of get that bro so in the business and how you still making money right now like from music just like how is it royalties damn you asking a lot of questions bro no I want to know bro I'm so I've got so many questions I want to ask you bro I'll tell you this music is supposed to be used so you can make as much ancillary dollars as you can because the music ain't promised everybody 15 minutes of fame ranges from a small 15 minutes of fame to a run like we having within that minute the 15 minutes the fame you better do a lot of other things to secure your bag because music is not going to be thing you be able to get paid off forever unless you're the DRS and the J that's not even 1% that's you know what I mean so you think about that so you better have some hustle you better learn how to you better have some business sense you better put your credit in order you better do a few things to secure you if you are artist [ __ ] leverage powerful penda yeah man how do you feel man when these kids these days wrap up about you know trying to act tough and rap about stuff they never done like you guys red about stuff you lived I mean I do believe a lot of these kids are going through a lot of [ __ ] that we went through and then a lot of the kids are talking about [ __ ] that they see but most of the kids are all growing up in the same community that all of that [ __ ] is going on so who tells them they don't have the right to talk about [ __ ] that they're not doing when that's still [ __ ] that they're seeing oh sure Ah that's powerful but the problem I have a problem when they rapping like they did it but they just R from somebody else's Vantage Point understand that but most of these artists that you've seen in the game some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I pretty firm in his in in his music that I'm a believer that he did some of that [ __ ] he can talk about just me I don't know you possibilities are possibilities but some things just seem correct you know mean I can't tell you for sure cuz it is music you know what I mean but some things seem correct [ __ ] man bro you got to come out to man you got to you know we haven't had a proper uh hip-hop concert in sa like since 50 N since you are come on back to the city does concerts man ah those are for old people empd the bigest artist in South Africa right now Hip-Hop Hip-Hop uh there's a guy called nastyc but nesty came here he doesn't know know you f poopa who's that nah F poopa Nigerian West African artist massive he used to pop not now for real still massive bigger than like ber boyo still it's different type of music oh stadiums is 50 60,000 people like what is this following this gu what's his name f poop F poop I don't know him bro he's from Nigeria yeah yeah yeah yeah Nigerian Prett pretty big yeah humongous bro how big was was 50 Cent bro like during his Reign man like how big was 50 Cent [ __ ] retardedly big it wasn't nothing bigger than him was Drake before Drake was dring he was oh [ __ ] he did it like it was like 50 was on a run that he never even touched the club bro like [ __ ] never seen him in the club he only did Arenas I never knew too many artist that just did that you dig like the [ __ ] was super massive every [ __ ] Rec he came out with was was going platinum and I'm just telling you the facts you heard and I always got to speak factual no matter how I feel about a person the [ __ ] was on top Super on top it was no way to knock him off his d i remember Jay-Z dropped the diss track on you did you guys resolve that beef I think you were not happy with him as the president of De jam oh man um we never really had a beef um we had some feuds back and forth through the situations that were going on over other people um and me being who I am I had to hold my ground um but to know that he actually talked about me in multiple of his records mean that I was pretty big in his eyes you dig true true cuz I didn't hear him talk about too many people in his career and if he did talk you talk about you on the record that meant something you know what I mean and I was then so for me that I I I took that like what it was like you dig like yeah J doesn't respond to take the time out to say my name you heard if I'm if I'm not that big of a deal to you you would never ever a am I am I right talk about a person you heard true it's it's a form of respect and ackowledge 100% am I right in saying a lot of [ __ ] are scared of Jay-Z bro cuz we interviewed Dam Ian I don't I don't know I'm not a lot of [ __ ] you heard I'm a man so I couldn't I I couldn't tell you that you heard I ain't scared to nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that that that dentist yeah the dentist got me there you heard you can walk in you could walk we about to fight right now you a dentist walk in you got it you got it like you got it bow down you got it I don't want no smoke let me get out of here M fact word Jimmy before you go man uh what beefs did you have so you had something beef with Jay-Z right no man I just told you we had some feuds stemming from that's beef bro stemming from other things that going on um my problem like it was all part of Us coming up in the game and things were happening we were signing a Rockefeller cam was sign a Rockefeller actually then we got opportunity to Diplomat records um the split between uh Jay and Dame came um artist took sides some took the J side some took the the Dame side which side were you on we was on the Dame side OB Dash yeah Dame Dash that's do you think Dame Dash is misunderstood bro huh you think Dame Dash is misunderstood um too smart for his own good I get that yeah if you had the opportunity again you sometimes being the smartest person in the room could be held against you especially when you want everybody to know that you're the smartest person in the room yeah yeah yeah and I get given a second chance would you still side with Dam never you wouldn't never whoa I never signed a d at all that was no no no like sided with him took his side oh give a second chance I wouldn't have sided with none of them I would we would haveed our [ __ ] business but you learned that with age yeah you heard we had no business butting into that because it wasn't a street beef and this wasn't some [ __ ] that had to do with us ultimately we were holding our [ __ ] down and [ __ ] like that but business-wise if we would if we knew what we knew now we would let them get into that they self y'all can handle that because we got records to put out and music to make and we got our own record label to run you dig and this my hinder what we got going on by us taking sides and that's why I tell people now even when people seeing all the Diplomat [ __ ] like y bro don't don't get in to taking sides with me and my bro because you never know how that might end up and if it end up to a point where we do figure out our situation then I'm looking at you funny now me and you got forever you heard you dig and there are plenty of people that did that and plenty people that didn't and plenty people that showed the same amount of love that he showed to me that it showed to cam when we were going through our imaginary situations and [ __ ] like that cuz it's all imaginary when you know you can figure figure it out now it's a saying that like don't just be in people's business when especially when they've beef and take sides cuz and I I had to learn that a lot I had took me a long time to learn that because of how we come up in the Cod that they supposedly treat us in teach us in the street and [ __ ] like that but sometimes that's not the smallest thing that we can do and then uh push a t did you ever beef with him nah that was some [ __ ] that we was on record um he did some [ __ ] I did some [ __ ] you dig that was it I never followed that I didn't even know did you know there's a pusher T me I ain't got no just know I don't know I know you're from I know you're from Africa and [ __ ] like that but people don't play with me yeah for real and I don't I don't play with people this ain't no playground you heard this is the street it's two ways don't get caught up in a yellow line it's going to be hard to cross bro yeah you heard no I don't trust me I'm from Africa but I saw what happened at the airport so that [ __ ] escalated yeah [ __ ] that was self-defense man God yo bro it looked like that guy was just messing with you bro I wish that could have never happened cuz I was trying to avoid that by all cause but [ __ ] happened sometime man you dig and definitely not not going to allow anybody do anything to me at all bro when I saw that video right like I don't know I just met you today right but I saw when you lifted that guy from the escalator threw him down he literally just went on survival mode bro like it's like there was a button that you switched on and you just like I don't [ __ ] care but yeah yeah no I mean no that's a button that I choose not to push you heard yeah exactly like you can go there quickly I choose to show restraint for a lot of reasons in my life and sometimes it's hard to you dig but where I'm at in life right now I choose positivity or all the other things that come out my way because I know how it is to be negative I was once that negative person that was very aggressive and ready to do something to to you over the minimal alistic of things and [ __ ] like that so I'm blessed to be here to try to be able to show restraint and so so the guy so the guy at the airport you guys on the same plane yeah we on the same plane so you don't have a private jet no I don't have a private jet I'm not a rich man come on Jimmy you made so much money over the years but anyway so you're in the plane what's he what's this guy saying to you like um I don't know man just [ __ ] happens I know just the started from the plane just know that what you see happen on so it starts on the plane you restrain yourself you're like all right cool my dog say whatever you want to say yeah when he gets to the airport I mean the escalator that's when I think he starts hitting you or something right yeah something like that he tried to do something like that and that's what we see man but like I said this is not something that I want to glorify it's not you think he knows who you are um if if he didn't he know now no I'm I'm sorry see sorry cuz some people just provoke I believe he was he was trolling a little bit and things like that which is cool you I mean I'm if if you in New York not time 10 you do know who I am so you know I believe it was a bit of that but God bless man hopefully that they all right hopefully the old man um cool you dig like are you spiritual cuz you mentioned God a lot man yeah I'm very spiritual very spiritual very spiritual I've been my whole family is spiritual and what does that mean in an American sense cuz um us as African for me it means a lot of different things um I was told what the church was as a young age as they drag you to church every Sunday your grandmother your moms and your family and things like that and you really don't understand what that is from that young but as you get older and you go through certain things and you make it through certain things you understand that there is a God and everybody has a relationship with their God different and sometimes going to church doesn't mean that you love your God any less or he loves you any less you dig and you say spiritual I'm very spiritual I say my prayers as much as I can sometime two three four times in a day you dig man doesn't take away from what I do and who I am because I'm still in the line for everything else everybody is in but I know every day that I'm able to wake up and every day I'm able to make a dollar and every day I'm able to keep living the life that I am I should be thankful you heard cuz that's not just me that's a higher vibration that's definitely a God you dig and I'm well aware that I've escaped many things in life that Lord knows I should not be here but then again I should be here cuz he put here for a reason he gives his toughest battles to his strongest people what the Bible say you heard and I've made it through some very tough battles which are minimal to some of the people that I had next to me in their battles you know what I mean so it's like we all got to figure it out Jim Jones thank you so much man and thanks to God for bringing you here man definitely I appreciate for making time for us bro thank you man we appreciate you tired when you got you I appreciate the fact that you could even make it man got any last question yeah man bro you said you've gone through some tough battles and you mentioned how you lost your dad at like 26 but also that you you pretty much raised yourself from the age of 15 you know from that relationship or lack of it like has it affected how you father your children 100% this made me the best father I could be but me my relationship with my father was always a great one even though he wasn't there because every day he wasn't I love them even more I wasn't one of them kids that was bitter you dig I understand that everybody went through something and at that age what he was going through there was a lot of drug addiction and I knew that from a very young age I understood what drugs was and how they were tearing up my family I never held that against my father and I was just blessed able to get back with him before he passed away so he could see that his son was making something out of himself at that time I was already signed to her uh we think we just got the Rockefeller deal so it was a very big deal for me to be able to get back with my father to show him that me somebody that you should be proud of and I know him looking down right now got be like damn I did that so you know and that's how I feel but then in turn TR here my son I don't you know I mean like I just you know mean I pride myself on making sure that I I turned my son into somebody that was way better than I could ever be you oh man yeah that's my guy shout out to you man is your son still wearing Crocs to you br he's a Croc guy you heard yeah Crocs for Life bro Crocs for Life jumping out the beam with a fresh paer Crocs on I don't want to stand him Jimmy before you go your top five rappers all time my top five rappers of all you got to give us your top five bro yeah Tupac definitely Jay-Z Drake um Drake he not like us by default of course um rock cam no Eminem No No whoa not even big you from NY and not to take nothing away from him he's extremely nice it's retardedly nice when it comes to rap but I listen to artists that kind of you know I mean do something for the life that I live and kind of what I've been through and most of these artist or artist that I'm talking about people that you know what I mean like [ __ ] better stop hating on my boy Drake all of a sudden all this Drake land I get it I get it you ain't like us let's not do that let's not forget the 15 years he been spanking [ __ ] around this [ __ ] all all all over this [ __ ] all the alley he been giving most of these artists that are now seeming to be turning on them let's you know let's not some of them gave him their best hits let's not forget the big picture here and [ __ ] like but what the hip-hop culture and this game is built on competition so I yeah but what is he with it you heard you better put your best foot forward but what has Drake given back to the culture oh that you so love here we go um what is he giving back to the culture I seen him take a lot of people on tour and turn them even richer than they already was I I seen him give a lot of people hits that they would have never had if he wouldn't have got on a record things for the culture that wouldn't have happened in turn records that we would have never knew about him to record that the culture love and things like that I mean he's not from here Canada from the hood I don't believe he owes America too much but the monster that give back to where he's from maybe we should ask about what has he done in Canada giving back to his community as opposed to what he giving back to the culture of the United States when this is not where he's from and I think that's the Divide right there now if we talk about what he's done in Canada and if it's not up to par then maybe we can talk about oh you dig but that's I think that's for the people of Canada you dig like yeah cuz but it's the people of America in the hood who made him of course you heard about but that he didn't grw up in America he didn't grew up here you heard so if you was an artist from Africa yeah like boy yeah do you think bnab boy has responsibility what do Niger of United stes n I'm taking it back home bro super duper big yes but that's what people then will call a culture vulture cuz you come into a space you know do what the people of that space do benefit from them is is is you understand what we doing like it's bro it's not because he's not take so he's not taking benab boy is Nigerian it's a Nigerian culture that is now popular in America so Drake took an American culture and enriched himself but what he's saying is that he doesn't owe anything to America cuz he's not from yet right okay right yeah I mean [ __ ] he's got no obligation Fair argument he got no obligation Fair argument yeah like he lived if he lived like I don't I don't that's how I see it you heard like that's how I see it you dig but all these [ __ ] we talking about are filthy filthy filthy rich off the opinions of men you heard what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never but what I'm just trying to tell you is how this game is played yeah you heard yeah geez man the more we talk the more they get paid the loser still gets paid too if there is a loser I don't think there's a loser when they all getting Millions off of this [ __ ] I don't think I mean like and I understand end all be all in the whole circle of it but I'm I've been in this [ __ ] for so long I'm miss you can see the politics of really get you to understand of what's really going on and [ __ ] like that this [ __ ] don't pay me a dollar to talk about it yeah hey man how tight you with Joe Bon he calls us those African guys with numbers oh yeah yeah yeah Jo this my guy buts what's up man he cool yeah he's an instigator definely know how to get under people's skin yeah I've known Joan for so long [ __ ] like that um I'm proud of him put himself in his position a whole new Lane to make a shitload of money um where it stem from the culture this what I'm talking about all the ancillary things that you need to get going on if are a artist of some type of success you got to use that to get where you want look at Joe used his startom and rap no matter what it was to able to finesse a whole new Lane of podcasting that true he's pretty big in damn near one of the forefathers of it from our culture right y'all started before him or after him we started after him but now we have more numbers than him hey doesn't matter no numbers do matter I mean no J and get num I'm cool with that but you won't be never be the considered the forefather of this whole no no no no no no no you dig 100% yeah it's Jo Joan numbers is cool I'm cool with that you get paid and I know what's a race you might be number one you heard yeah yeah but you still never be the forefather always going to have that under him like I've created this Lane for your how I feel about Ling hip hop yeah of course I got that under my belt that's mine y can never say that was yours at all yeah okay how much money you made off of it and [ __ ] like that at the end of the day you it's mine you heard Still My still mine so we always ask anybody any guest that we get on the show in closing what do you want to be remembered as man when it's all said and done I want I want to be remembered I want I want them to know that I gave more than I took because I was able to take a lot in my time amen just like that sh hey man I wish you put me on love and& hip-hop bro they got the African love of Hip Hop they got Jamaican love of Hip Hop they got they got any type of Love of Hip Hop we need the South African love of Hip Hop thanks Jim man shout out thank you bro I appreciate you man thank you we appreciate podcast and chill we out of here man boom peace welcome to Black excellenc do not fear for if you do just sip on some Grand and if you still do ask ourselves what would M [Music] do when they ask you do not fear for if you do just say an TV this is the the medicine of censorship this is the pill which one is that one podcast and chill	watch TV like that bro okay I'll be out chasing the money I ain't even got time to do that and if and if I do got some time I'm trying to get a little bit of rest or I'm thinking about money [ __ ] is crucial out here right now you better get to your dollar a lot of [ __ ] about to happen and if you ain't got no coins boy you going to be [ __ ] up you ever been to uh Puerto Rico yeah I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times yeah but business not for the Heritage part of it so like you don't know where like your your your parents were at Familiar of the place where my father's from but I never really got to do the whole go to give with my family understand the roots understand you know I mean like I didn't get to get to that part of it but I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times you find like that's important like to know you it's definitely important I had this um I did an interview not too long ago about um how important the roots are and get to know where my family from know I mean so we'll start to do that pretty soon so so so your dad you know you know your dad right yeah he's passed away oh okay God bless rest in peace what happened to him	-2	6	4	watch TV like that bro okay I'll be out chasing the money I ain't even got time to do that and if and if I do got some time I'm trying to get a little bit of rest or I'm thinking about money	you ever been to uh Puerto Rico	3,-5,8	2,1,4	3	-5	8	2	1	4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr730VmL-lk	4,054	rr730VmL-lk	2024-06-27 00:00:00	like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano no well Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he showed me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah just understand everybody going there my guy I understand the hate exactly what you're saying yeah bro what's his name I don't it's fine you remember those some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I ain't scared of nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that the dentist yeah dentist got me there what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never [Music] [Music] yo Jimmy you do not look like you want to be here bro like someone forced you to be it's like you have to do that par they're the biggest podcast in Africa you have to be there I never look like I want to be nowhere man you got to part of me but congratulations to yall having the biggest podcast in Africa that that that's very big Africa being one of the biggest continents in the world a lot of people over there shut up man why you so tired bro crazy weekend I've been working all weekend shows different states traveling Planes Trains automobiles you know how I be a little bit too much partying yeah road kill it's tough but what's up how y'all feeling I'm good bro I literally saw um I saw your video uh yesterday for your new single the one you shot in Miami two turn temp yeah yeah how you feel about it bro that [ __ ] is lit man looks like our Vibe bro cuz we've been to Miami myself and and my partner but we never like experienced the Miami night life we were playing in Florida yeah we're DJing in Florida but two South Africans like the diaspora then West Palm Beach as well yeah DJ also yeah like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano what it's a genre it's called a piano no no cuz I'm a piano even you heard like you saw he did the whole Keys thing it has nothing to do with the piano that's where it started but has nothing to do with it these days when when I met charlot man he said the exact same thing he's like oh so you're a podcaster I'm like yeah and then you DJs I'm like no I play I'm a Pian like you're a Pianist man you one talented [ __ ] n it's a genre of music man what kind of genre is that like it's like slowed down house music with a lot of s that African influence that's the only way I can describe it so it's a it's a mix of a marriage house yeah a marriage of house music which originated here at Chicago and stuff and then we slowed it down created a sub genre called guo where guys were sort of rapping but very minimalist raps called guo then the kids were born like in the 2000s late '90s then created a whole meshup of those two genres and it's called Piano cuz a a lot of Americans think it's um afro beats it's not afro beats yeah a lot of the hence I avoided saying afro beats cuz AFR beats is from Nigeria and amap piano is far from afro beat afro beat borrows from am piano now where is amap piano originated from South Africa from the hoods from the Cassis yeah but when I when I was looking at your video bro uh the only thing in my mind was like bro what's a night like out with Jim Jones CU that [ __ ] look lit there [ __ ] everywhere bro um please please describe a night out in Miami with Jim so let's say we going to Miami right now I mean some nice are better than others but been doing it so long it's kind of like the the bare minimum for us to do in Miami just having fun but it still work at the same time like every every I'm I'm not just going out partying for no reason ni like that was we knew what we was kind of getting into we wanted to film a video so we knew we was going to ramp it up a bit take it to the to the highest form going crazy as we could but that actually happened to fall on a big weekend um and one of my dudes was celebrating so everything kind of happened for a reason but yeah Miami could take you for take you for a few a few trips man like okay so so so me and you we get in the car right I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm in Miami I hate you cuz you got a house there you stay there right yeah I got I got I got cribs there so I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm by the strip you know that Miami strip right yeah yeah yeah I mean see that's the thing about Miami when you come to visit Miami that's where people are know at like the strip and things like that I guess stand by Collins and ocean driveing all that people that live there don't really do the strip like that like you just you dig people congregate usually at night time and all the spots that usually go on down there um okay so we got security obviously you got to roll around with security right um yeah I mean that' be the safest thing for me to do so we get out the cut with security when you get to the bouncers are they letting us in cuz it's Jim Jones or are they checking our IDs cuz they've been checking our IDs just to buy beer here bro Che ID everywhere yeah everywhere yeah no I I don't think I produced my ID in since I was a teenager at clubs but yeah you won't need your ID when you with me so we walking in right yeah we going to get in oh do we have a section do we they going to give us a section VIP yeah they going to give us a section we going to get some bottles and let the night ensue got this thing called Power Hour you go to the club maybe like 2:45 to 3:45 in and out no sweat so what's the what's the purpose of that exercise the Power Hour yeah like why would you be in the cloud for an hour why would I be in a club for 4 hours it's Fu I mean I've been part I've been partying since I've been 14 I've been making money to party since I've been 18 I'm kind of burnt out so at this point I try to wait till the club is at the most popping or lest moment which is usually that hour right there and I get to enjoy everything that happened tonight and leave out of there and not be all burnt out what what does your wife say bro cuz you're married man you're surrounded by all these girls like you know I mean I'm going to worry about the women yeah is minimal to the money worry about the money more than anything so so a woman doesn't like give you grief when you come home I yeah you get you get grief all the time if you in a relationship no matter what you do if you had a job on Wall Street you get home you're going to get grief no around it you heard yeah there's women everywhere unless you work in the LGBT Club then you know I mean even there you still going to go home and get like it's no way around it you're going to get you know I mean like yeah so you've never had like been home and you had to explain like yo no man I was just doing music video it's just work like I don't know that good you going to explain yourself in every relationship and things like that I got a good woman at home who understands a job I have and things like that so for the most part but for the most part I'm a very responsible respectable person when when I'm in the streets and when I do have to interact with females and things like that yeah anyway H ladies and gentlemen welcome to another special edition of podcasting chill so CU yeah I am here we're chilling with the [ __ ] Legend Kings of Harlem please make some noise for Jim Jones Jim I gotta say bro I gotta say bro I'm going to be honest with you when I find that your name was GMO geloo gelo I'm like I'm like Jim Jones losing some G points here man what the [ __ ] is that I'm Puerto Rican and a rubian my pops is Puerto Rican the word gelo means William in English is a Spanish Spanish name cuz you know what I was thinking I was thinking that guy who does the show late night you know the short guy who does like the interviews with um this late night comedian man what are the late night shows oh man not uh bad with these oh gosh the late night guy bro uhri or something not Corin O'Brien no not Trevor Noah the other American guy man like uh old new no he's like jimm Kimel Jimmy Kimel jimy he's got that he's got that short guy his name is julo oh I don't I don't I don't got got me messed up I don't even really watch TV like that bro okay I'll be out chasing the money I ain't even got time to do that and if and if I do got some time I'm trying to get a little bit of rest or I'm thinking about money [ __ ] is crucial out here right now you better get to your dollar a lot of [ __ ] about to happen and if you ain't got no coins boy you going to be [ __ ] up you ever been to uh Puerto Rico yeah I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times yeah but business not for the Heritage part of it so like you don't know where like your your your parents were at Familiar of the place where my father's from but I never really got to do the whole go to give with my family understand the roots understand you know I mean like I didn't get to get to that part of it but I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times you find like that's important like to know you it's definitely important I had this um I did an interview not too long ago about um how important the roots are and get to know where my family from know I mean so we'll start to do that pretty soon so so so your dad you know you know your dad right yeah he's passed away oh okay God bless rest in peace what happened to him he passed away yeah like was it um medical thing or yeah natural causes oh damn like when you young or um maybe when I was uh 23 24 oh damn bro SED to hear that man maybe 26 right before my son passed right before my God bless right before my son Bor bro but you like 47 right now I look good for 47y old man no homo you know what I mean thank you very much like what was what's keeping you looking so good is it the yoga yeah a lot of yoga a lot of Pilates I stay in shape um I'm very uh very big on Fitness um work out like five six times a week um it's one of the best ways to stay young and have better chances of living a long life is that why you do it or maybe there's other purpose like you know a lot of people are in gym for their mental health I mean it's very it's very it's very therapeutic I will say that but my main goal is to look good of course but to give me better chances of living forever bro so how you got into rap um I don't know correct me if I'm wrong right but you used to skip church and go to the train station to to rap like no I never skipped Church to go on the train station and rap I skipped Church to go to the train station and go play video games and run the streets and do everything a bad little kid did from the streets of hollow when we was like S8 and n and things like that I don't know if you know about anything about the subway system in New York but that's the pathway system that get you to all five burrows and we definitely was on the subway which maybe we shouldn't have been but we was a little uh loose um for me rapping actually rapping didn't start later on in life to actually uh C and um they I got a deal and things like that and that was the first time me myself really thought about actually raing cuz I'll be honest with you like um dipet I don't really know much about dipet however I know about you guys individually like Cameron old boy like one of my favorite songs uh jul sna had hear that that was Cameron and Jules and jwes he both was on he both old boy and heon yeah why don't you jump on those tracks man those tracks are massive they was already done I was there for the making of both of them incredible tracks yeah and then how did dipit start start like how did you guys start the whole movement um organically kiss him Harem gr up together um talented kids Cam and Mason BL sh was they already was doing music um Everybody gradu graduated high school I didn't get to go to college they went to college they got kicked out they got kicked out they come moved in with me from that that was a uh foundation for them to D into the music you've been in the game for like 20 30 odd years right been in the game for since 1997 how would you describe the different eras of like um hip-hop right especially now cuz um obviously we all know about the Kendrick Lamar song they're not like us but I didn't know how big it was until I landed in in in America and it's like it's like a movement the video yeah it's like huge it's massive bro yeah it's a big record Kendrick did that shout out to Kendrick shout out to my boy Drake but what do you think about like the evolution of hip-hop in all the different areas you've been a part of what do you mean what do I think about it it's a great thing to be a part of something that um you could only dream of everybody doesn't get a chance to be in this game um I've been fortunate enough to be here for so many genres and errors and seen so many people come and go I've watched the smallest artist to the biggest artist who you thow will be here forever and going um I got stories for days I can tell you about um how I feel about it I feel great I feel blessed you know what I mean I feel lucky this [ __ ] don't it's not promised and for me to still be here is definitely a blessing so in the 90s what was the vibe like man like like what in the 90s as far as what in hip-hop yeah it was it was different um 90s was a great era um one of my favorite errors um that was the era we first first came outside um started to get out deal uh very aggressive era uh no social media um cell phones were just being born um everything that you seen you was something that you could grab on to um artists had to go to the towns we couldn't just get on your phone and music you had to go get you couldn't just have access to it so it was a it was it it was a hunt um you had to touch the Tails kiss babies do radio everything like it was just a different ER but who was around like during that time when you who was around like Tupac was did you like meet Tupac Tupac I didn't get to meet Tupac um Tupac passed away what 95 was that yeah right in big in '97 um no I got to see Tupac do a few times in Harlem um that was dope but um not Tupac passed away before we got to get in the record game but I've seen a lot of a lot of artists in my time from a young age to old age we were partying in clubs as teenagers before we even got a record deal and things like that like we were in clubs since high school and [ __ ] like that so any interactions with Big L he was from Harlem right yeah shouts to Big Al Big Al was definitely from Harlem um 139th NFL Big L um I was one of the Cam's uh close friends um actually put cam on a dope record that started to give uh Cam and bloodshed and and her mcgree her was already popping too but guy gave them some notice when it came to R so when you come out like who's who's popping at that time is it git is it mop D it's way before G when we came out I was like Eminem just dropped oh [ __ ] this is Slim Shady not M like Slim Shady I I remember that that was like cam had dropped and Eminem had dropped DMX had dropped Nori had dropped um Big Pun had dropped lud Chris Luda had just started coming out um Nelly Nelly down down baby yeah shouts to coola love um yeah that type of error shouts to shouts to Fat Joe shouts to Buster they was already in it uh Nas was already in it Jay start going crazy that's when he just started taking over with the 1 million 2 million 3 million 4 um yeah very competitive very edgy um lot of the big dogs um had real roots in the streets um especially in the streets of New York so that put that put a real Mystique on everything when it came to the music um all the events with topnotch um it just was a different feel man it was a heavy heavy dope boy era um this was before the drug dealers wanted to be Rappers that's when the rappers wanted to be drug dealers you know what I mean and and that Arrow was was a very dope high impact trenel and Russian it was a was a great error bro I saw an interview you did correct me if I'm wrong I might be paraphrasing but you mentioned a place called the tunnel or something where everybody would be and you guys were [ __ ] [ __ ] in the bathrooms please please describe that manest cuz a place like that couldn't exist right now bro with all this woke [ __ ] I mean yeah and the cancel cult I would say it was probably the greatest Club The Hip hopers have seen and it was during the 90s era it was the Golden Era um in New York they got you had stories about like Studio 54 in that era when everybody used all the biggest of big used to go to Studio 54 well the tunnel was what Studio 54 was to that era to our era and it didn't make so many people and nationalities and genres and just everybody was like a big pumbo all for the sake of the culture you had some of the flyest models to some of the biggest drug dealers biggest gang bangers I mean every former elicit street life you could think of was in the spot along with the biggest artists and rappers and actors and models that you could find into all athletes um it would definitely like that um and was this like per invite or just like anybody could Rock up there nah you couldn't just rock up there for this is '90s entry was like $100 first of all $100 for a club that was the first time we ever heard of it and that was a lot of money back then especially we probably started in '94 going there teenager so $100 was sto a lot of money in New York at the time sneakers wasn't even costing $100 um to get in the club you definitely had to be connected to know somebody or you had to wait on a long line that usually was a block long um they had like an Express line you could pay $100 to get on Express line that'll get you to the door quicker and then you pay your entry fee um streets was blocked off you was a big dog you was able to bring your cars down there I was able to bring like four five of them if I wanted to um yeah the club was just it was different man pull up to the door security they taking people's shoes off they searching your jacket twisting people inside out like they about to go on the Rikers Island I got to I gave security High files I never took my shoes off and not since high school I when we used go in high school we used to get our shoes taken off and things like that make you feel like you going to the cental bookings and [ __ ] like that so what gave you that clout that allowed you to bring four cars in when nobody or you had to be a big dog to bring four cars in when you could just give them a high five instead of removing your shoes and you're young by then like what gives you that CL I was a big dog since a small pup bro J yeah man what gave you those you know credentials at such a young age to suppos all these people cuz Dr Tre was there yeah you putting in four cars not removing shoes I was a good Lord Biden citizen everybody love Jim Jones even even the girls like would you just rock up they say let's go to the bathroom that's it yeah now that well yeah there was a lot of that going on they had a uh the layout was different first of all the club was a block long a whole city block um wow there was like three other four other clubs within the club or spots that look like clubs um the main floor was humongously big the DJ was like a a lifeguard Tower in the middle of the club um you go upstairs they had a VR big V PE upstairs and then go through a door it open up to the bathroom the bathroom was like a unisex Club [ __ ] had a big ass bar in the middle of the bathroom uh bunch of stalls lined up um that [ __ ] was like a hotel inside Lions cocaine everything yeah they was going down a lot of sex was going down there a lot of a lot of drugs was going down in there um yeah the tunnel was definitely uh a landmark to New York City when it comes to the clubs I I definitely um I always think about that club um it did a lot for me in my life um it gave me a lot of imagination when it came to to the culture and the things I was seeing from a young age as to where I want to be and the direction I want to go in yeah we was going there since high school so when you seeing people like Mike Tyson and all these people coming in big cheer on and just having their way as a kid go out got to go to school the next morning you you in school thinking about that [ __ ] like w man this school [ __ ] [ __ ] this school [ __ ] I need some money and I need to go to the tunnel that's all I want to [ __ ] do that's wild man now can you imagine because we in sa right we're looking at all the videos that you guys are pulling out there like we're looking at this lifestyle and then you F Track to 2024 right M and the P didy thing breaks out right I mean i' rather not even to get into that yeah just don't I rather the do I don't you know I mean like it's not it's not my business oh I mean like this you heard God bless it's too much n yeah and it's not me to have an opinion on certain things cuz I ain't perfect I've been through my own [ __ ] in life and I see a lot of people that have even this doing too much just know that I ain't perfect so I choose not to talk on certain [ __ ] that you know what I mean a lot of other people people been talking about I let them keep doing the talk and I got other [ __ ] to work on I'm trying to work on me being a better person yeah I respect I respect that man but were ever part of any gang or like you sounding like the F never hey we don't the F in South Africa man only PS I'm just playing with you yeah I've been affiliated with the bloods in New York City um ENT Tre um yeah so crazy have you ever been to sa like have you ever been to Africa or um I've been to Africa where did you go uh gaban gille damn G to perform there um I went to perform there but uh got some great friends there they actually had ran the country at the time this is before the big yeah yeah overtaking and stuff like that but I had a ball out there I got to go to an island called Pony um that was a dope experience as they took me to the jungles I got to see some of the indigenous people um it was like a a real um life Awakening like and I got to see how also the rich people live out there also like I got to see both sides like that you know what I mean it was it was a great experience I out there for like a week um I haven't been back since but yeah it was dope you never been to South Africa never been to South Africa bro so the reason why I asked that is because like yo bro like American culture has infiltrated South Africa like you can't believe like you know we got people worshiping you guys you know Jim Jones rappers and everything you so we've got rappers who rap just like you and youd say they're like Bloods and Crips but they've never they've never left sa you know cuz that's how influential uh the culture is right but from you when you see or hear that like what do you guys think like do you think is like some [ __ ] like or like leave don't don't follow the gang life you know what I mean oh as far as that is concerned um there's two sides to that this what you do as a gang member that turns it into something that becomes a crime or whatever that end but the Brotherhood part of it is what the most of us joined up for when we coming up in the hood and need that Brotherhood lean on somebody is that type of camaraderie that pretty much stood for and there's a lot of other great attributes that comes with affiliation or you becoming a part of a gang um it gets twisted up because we all come up in these urban communities and our back is against the wall we don't have no opportunities um it's very dormant uh we on top of each other so naturally testosterone testosterone wins in a lot of these situations where these kids find s in bad situations and for that I would tell people to kind of stay away from this type of life um I don't want to oppose my will we all going to experience what we going to experience but I can't tell you the consequences to this type of Lifestyle could be very dear you heard ethal a lot of people don't get to make it where I made it and Escape that lifestyle that could have put me away or could have put me in the dirt I mean so here as a Living testament to tell you that these consequences are terrible the odds on you making it out of that life in a positive manner are very slim I mean but if you are in that life and you taking it as a Brotherhood and try to uplift your brothers I know there's a lot of people around you that are doing a lot of [ __ ] that that that that that's very crazy you know what I mean if you're a part of that and you got the positive minder then you try to uplift your brother and instill some positivity within them because it's very cold out here so I've always been curious bro like so when that when you you you start getting immersed you know or Affiliated in the gang life how does that affect the conversation at home with your parents like your mom your dad and just the domestic you know Dynamics I a't grow my parents I was a grown man since I was like 15 I made my own money since I was like 16 my grandmother left me in high school man I was raising my Sisters by myself in the projects I hustle every I ever got in my life that's why music saved my life I was so grateful to be able to be next to cam and him getting a deal at such a very young age to be able to still be making money off that [ __ ] right now you were U anr for Warner uh music group yeah I was the director of anr for Warner Music Group um years ago uh shouts to Kevin L shouts to Leo Cohen for giving me the opportunity um great opportunity uh I excelled at it extremely very young with a lot of power but didn't understand what I had at hand um didn't have too many people in my corner that were telling me the things that I should have been doing with that type of position as opposed to some type of weird way be hating you know I mean so that's what happened but as you get older you learn you learn and you move on who did you discover while you were in that position uh I would tell you a story I I know I've helped try s uh they come to tra songs that you know today he's always in he's always in we know why no n but he was a young kid at the time and uh they were actually going to cut him from the label we had a big uh um it's like uh one of them uh some events they be doing not the talent shows the uh well was something like that all the artists had to come perform and then they pretty much didn't know that they was on a Cho and block at the time when I was an executive and and he was one of the artists that they were going to cut and I remember Kevin L specifically ask me yo what we should do with him I'm about to cut him I don't know what to do with him and when I heard him uh singing and I saw him perform I was like this is this is one artist you should keep and did that and now we all tra songs on so many dope ass records is it true you could have signed Drake yeah I had a chance to sign uh I had a chance to do business with Drake um through Allan grum blat um when I was doing business at cotch um it was a different era I didn't understand what Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he show me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah understand everybody going at my guy I understand the hate man the hate is so phenomenal it's just how this game go man this game is so tricky man these [ __ ] just like females in this game we ain't going to get into that man there's a lot of uh but wait wait wait so so with Drake like are you are you seeing him perform like try songs or like you just heard of the guy just a conversation Allan called me about signing a kid let me hear some of his music um and I was like the kid know how to rap but I don't know what to do with him his image is crazy and him couple years later heard him on a Wheezy mixtape going crazy I was like wow this kid is about to go wham inside of this business and he sure did and you're know trying to call Weezy like yo man I gotta get that kid or something n he was already signed a young money and jcole did you miss on jcole as well I could have signed J Cole bro jcole was in the studio with me every day and at that point jcole I he's he remind me of a knockoff Drake and not to say it like that but that's who he sounded like he came to my studio every day rapping to these Drake beats rapping like Drake Cadence like Drake he could rap his ass off yeah you heard yeah but it was already a drake out there he had the Caesar it was different like two lightskinn [ __ ] might not K when raing the same but you never know what you got in front of you man you dig and those are lessons I I've took with me to moving forward when I see artists and and I hate artists I always give them more than just hearing just just I got to I got to I gotta try to capture the whole picture I make sure I just don't you mean so I don't miss nothing else because I've missed a few people and I've helped a few people um gain a lot of success in in my time in this industry whether it been by me having a meeting with them or me having influence on them or you know I mean so you know and there's never like any animosity like Jake Cole or Drake never came up to be like yo you could have signed me look at me now bro I mean me and Drake is cool as [ __ ] um I see J Cole I don't think he I mean I don't think that's no he some [ __ ] he might want to keep to himself not to be like that sh the co he not that type of artist he's not a you I mean yeah you did I look I look at as we can see I want to mention an artist who like I'm really fond of like I think this guy's [ __ ] amazing musically talented everything that he touched like turned to Gold who's that uh kid k bro K Cy yeah yeah did you help him with his career yeah I birth K Cy wow J me how so bro bir them nobody would have know who K Cy was at all if I a jump on this remix record but it wasn't even remix he wasn't even a nobody like I tell a story all the time I had a inter used to work for me said he got some dudes that do videos they would like to do a video for me told them come let me see they work they show me their videos the first video they showed me was of the kid Cy record he's on the top of a roof some simple video the record sound more wavy than the opportunity for them to do a video I'm like well if you'll get me the beat to this record I Remix this record and then y'all can shoot the video to that record wow and that's what they did and then um the radio station ripped the record off of YouTube and start playing it at Hot 97 and K Cy was born bro why do you think especially about kid Cy cuz from him when I listen to music right it wasn't really no no other kid Cy record besides the one that I was on yeah man he's not in they don't play his records where I be at at all not to be funny wow bro and we listen to him like all that day and night you know remember only record I know yeah it's the only record I know unless it's like a pop record that everybody know and I and I'm even not paying attention to it but he don't his records don't get played nowhere that i' be at not like that unless I go into a different farm and that's the type of music they playing in one of these funny clubs that play fist pump music and pop music he's not into like you dig like they don't play his music in the clubs I'll be at maybe in Vegas and [ __ ] like that but that's not like they not pumping this [ __ ] in live they not pumping this [ __ ] in Atlanta they not pumping this [ __ ] down the Stafford room or you know what I mean like they I'm not saying nothing like that but I don't hear it in the strip clubs I don't hear like you know what I mean so but he's a very successful person with some of the greats like Kanye to put him in a position to win and [ __ ] like that and I think he's way more better as an actor than he is a musician and that's just my POS that's just my opinion he did I seen him in the movie uh about the race car [ __ ] where he was F the playe like he got a lot of Charisma and [ __ ] like that on on camera for what I could see and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean bro I mean for you as Jim Jones to to see these kids you're introduced to them by an intern and then to hop onto that song it's something selfless you know to just give these unknown kids an opportunity of sharing a song with you where do you think that selflessness comes from how was that unknown kid I'm still an unknown kid anytime I get an opportunity that's an opportunity I should be able to give to somebody else bro the fact that you could even come to our podcast shout out man yeah man you don't even know us exactly what you're saying yeah know us what's his name I don't it's fine you know remember those kids who who did the video for him anyway you know remember I remember like that kids that got the biggest African podcast I'm definitely going to know like them is my guys right family right there appreciate I really mean that that sincerely and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean I I bump in too many people in my life and been across too many people in my journey to actually remember everybody's name but the face and the cause and I mean BR I want to understand right the first time you came up with the concept For Love and Hip Hop where were you what was happening that um that was something like uh me and Christy she had opportunity to do uh her own reality show um and actually fell through and that kind of she was kind of she wanted to do that I can see she was eager about doing that when it fell through kind you know I mean [ __ ] with her mood and [ __ ] like that so so so so so the initial concept what was it was just Chrissy just showing like what's life the initial concept was about she had her own thing going on about a group of women that was supposed to do a reality show had nothing to do with me yeah that [ __ ] fell through she lost that opportunity to end up not going people have been begging me to do reality TV for past couple years at the time and I and you reality TV gold man I refused to do it yeah and then when that happened I was like all right I got I'll do this for you and we'll make it about you and females that have to that are involved with artist such as myself and show what the relationship side is when you're dealing with a high-profile artist and you know what I mean how so that's how that started bro and that thing became a monster super super monster like it's still big till this day bro 100% so do you have like uh ownership in that we we were link a all that you know at that time when maybe the second season we just in a position where we refuse to compromise our dignity for anyone or any dollar and sometimes it be like that you know what I mean um but ain't no stress off my back T my hat to him you no but but but we got to talk about that because you see like this podcast um it's blackowned right it's just me and a couple of other people that are involved in the podcast right and we're always striving for ownership so a lot of um Brands and investors have come to try to buy the podcast and we say know cuz like we believe in ownership and telling the story the way we want to tell it right so what went wrong in that because as a hustler I believe like that's your also end goal MH um it wasn't something that I was just a lot of different layers and [ __ ] like that and I was too worried about doing other things and we had the opportunity to gain all ownership 50% of the whole TV show and all that but it still wasn't worth GE bro that's insane you just let go like that yeah bro it's your brain child bro there is no Love and& Hip Hop without you bro I still got a brain you heard yeah those are for people that don't have a brain that lack creativity people that steal things from you lack what you don't have remember that yeah whether it's money whether it's creativity whatever it is they lack what you don't have ultimately they steal from you you heard I mean we didn't even know C beef if it wasn't for Love and& Hip Hop right yeah yeah yeah definitely yeah bro you gave birth to so many many people man like VI their careers that's the god in me that's why I'm always going to be good yeah she man so any other shows that you're working on like in the pipeline that you want to do I was telling you I working on um a late night show a late night um a late night variety show live in studio audience hopefully we'll be filming in about 40 to 60 days um beautiful concept I do I do believe people going enjoy the show um like I was saying I can't do um a podcast is too personal for me and [ __ ] like that and me watching these podcasts um dealing with these artists me myself don't have the temperament for it you know what I mean um I [ __ ] I T my hat to y'all to have to deal with artists such as myself cuz you never know what type of mood they going to come in you know what I me some of these artists have a air to them where they feel like they better than most and they would never sit and have tea with the with the maintenance guy you heard me myself me going to maintenance guy going to smoke blunts before I get on stage [Music] I live my life and and and currently uh before we let you go man what do you think about the state of hip-hop cuz like statistically numbers wise it's not looking good man e beats has played all over New York now there's now the pianos this is this is what they want you to do this is how to get us to go against each other it's all under the same culture umbrella it's afro music ref I'm a piano I'm a piano explain that what do you mean by that bro yeah R&B what do you mean by that ultimately it's all from under the same origin and creativity of the same person from the same colors is all our thing n but let's be honest Jimmy hip-hop hasn't involved bro when I was listening to Eminem what do you want mean what do you mean hip-hop hasn't evolved you guys are still rapping about the same stuff it don't you you missing the point of what hip-hop is yeah hip-hop has evolved to a point that you can be the music genres that you're told them about can be noticed you think that if there was a hip hop that I'm a piano would be noticed or afro Beach would be noticed think about that and not to take nothing away from y because you always have culture and yes that music might be big within the continent of Africa yeah right but to cross over to American Fame and commercialism you don't think that the hip-hop culture played a big part in that that's that that's a different argument now you want to have a different argument I'm telling you the semantics of where we going with this you dig like you talking about uh the the hip hop music is damn percentage that's how they want us to think when it's really not cuz we all uplifting each other you heard you think that the country music that's going on in the black people winning is not because of the hip-hop culture no no no I think no one is disputing that however so then when you say hip-hop numbers are down and damn for who no I'm talking about I know what you're talking about but damn for who tell me who it's down for because I'm still making the money I make yeah I do believe there's still a lot of artist that's making a shitload of money that they make I don't think it went down for them yeah you know what I mean but I understand what you're talking about they say the numbers and then rock and roll genre might be up like I don't really you heard like that's I'm into this business you heard and it's always up for us you heard cuz this is a business we make money out of nothing it's never a downside to this okay and and that's why I'm saying I think we're having two different conversations here cuz the conversation I'm having is I'm having I'm having right is that in as much as he's saying yeah the numbers are down because they orchestrated and whatever I get that right but also that's why I asked do you think Hip-hop has evolved cuz I grew up on hip-hop right and the same things um quote unquote you guys were rapping about in the '90s how can hipop how can hip hop evolved in the same thing that Africa been Africa been going on since the '90s aren't y going still going through the same thing we are huh we are so how could the music evolve when the music ref the time ah okay get you real stories what you want us to rap about [ __ ] that that we don't have ah we talk about [ __ ] we dream about all the time that's the good The Good Life the colorin the Ros we talk about but the truth is how the music going to change when our position hasn't changed when we still going through the same [ __ ] we've been going through okay and y'all being from Africa should know that more than we know that yeah that's facts that's fact go about that own Cod yeah yeah yeah yeah you know are bro that's a valid fact but how do you feel man like you've come from an era where you guys when what you you said in your raps I mean evolved as far as dition as far as what we rap about cuz we still stuck in the same place but as a business it has evolved to one of big time yeah yeah biggest big time money making machines you can attach yourself to this made some of the richest individuals whether you're the rapper the lawyer the executive like that's true you know what I mean the supply chain but then I think that's why you know when you get the likes of a wz coming out and Kendrick Lamar they stand out like a sore thumb because like they are rapping about but that's what music is about to stand out for those who that want to look like everybody they don't get nowhere why you think Dip set was so successful sucessful yeah because we stood out on purpose we don't want to look like or H or sound like no one else m we want yall to above all see us when we walk in the building and hear us when we get on that [ __ ] mic you heard why would you guys the diplomats I never like where did that come from the diplomats the name the diplomats yeah we diplomats oh ah okay that sounded cool no we diplomats we are Harlem diplomats and we take it as that you heard we go to the Embassy when we land in countries you heard all right okay okay okay I I sort of get that bro so in the business and how you still making money right now like from music just like how is it royalties damn you asking a lot of questions bro no I want to know bro I'm so I've got so many questions I want to ask you bro I'll tell you this music is supposed to be used so you can make as much ancillary dollars as you can because the music ain't promised everybody 15 minutes of fame ranges from a small 15 minutes of fame to a run like we having within that minute the 15 minutes the fame you better do a lot of other things to secure your bag because music is not going to be thing you be able to get paid off forever unless you're the DRS and the J that's not even 1% that's you know what I mean so you think about that so you better have some hustle you better learn how to you better have some business sense you better put your credit in order you better do a few things to secure you if you are artist [ __ ] leverage powerful penda yeah man how do you feel man when these kids these days wrap up about you know trying to act tough and rap about stuff they never done like you guys red about stuff you lived I mean I do believe a lot of these kids are going through a lot of [ __ ] that we went through and then a lot of the kids are talking about [ __ ] that they see but most of the kids are all growing up in the same community that all of that [ __ ] is going on so who tells them they don't have the right to talk about [ __ ] that they're not doing when that's still [ __ ] that they're seeing oh sure Ah that's powerful but the problem I have a problem when they rapping like they did it but they just R from somebody else's Vantage Point understand that but most of these artists that you've seen in the game some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I pretty firm in his in in his music that I'm a believer that he did some of that [ __ ] he can talk about just me I don't know you possibilities are possibilities but some things just seem correct you know mean I can't tell you for sure cuz it is music you know what I mean but some things seem correct [ __ ] man bro you got to come out to man you got to you know we haven't had a proper uh hip-hop concert in sa like since 50 N since you are come on back to the city does concerts man ah those are for old people empd the bigest artist in South Africa right now Hip-Hop Hip-Hop uh there's a guy called nastyc but nesty came here he doesn't know know you f poopa who's that nah F poopa Nigerian West African artist massive he used to pop not now for real still massive bigger than like ber boyo still it's different type of music oh stadiums is 50 60,000 people like what is this following this gu what's his name f poop F poop I don't know him bro he's from Nigeria yeah yeah yeah yeah Nigerian Prett pretty big yeah humongous bro how big was was 50 Cent bro like during his Reign man like how big was 50 Cent [ __ ] retardedly big it wasn't nothing bigger than him was Drake before Drake was dring he was oh [ __ ] he did it like it was like 50 was on a run that he never even touched the club bro like [ __ ] never seen him in the club he only did Arenas I never knew too many artist that just did that you dig like the [ __ ] was super massive every [ __ ] Rec he came out with was was going platinum and I'm just telling you the facts you heard and I always got to speak factual no matter how I feel about a person the [ __ ] was on top Super on top it was no way to knock him off his d i remember Jay-Z dropped the diss track on you did you guys resolve that beef I think you were not happy with him as the president of De jam oh man um we never really had a beef um we had some feuds back and forth through the situations that were going on over other people um and me being who I am I had to hold my ground um but to know that he actually talked about me in multiple of his records mean that I was pretty big in his eyes you dig true true cuz I didn't hear him talk about too many people in his career and if he did talk you talk about you on the record that meant something you know what I mean and I was then so for me that I I I took that like what it was like you dig like yeah J doesn't respond to take the time out to say my name you heard if I'm if I'm not that big of a deal to you you would never ever a am I am I right talk about a person you heard true it's it's a form of respect and ackowledge 100% am I right in saying a lot of [ __ ] are scared of Jay-Z bro cuz we interviewed Dam Ian I don't I don't know I'm not a lot of [ __ ] you heard I'm a man so I couldn't I I couldn't tell you that you heard I ain't scared to nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that that that dentist yeah the dentist got me there you heard you can walk in you could walk we about to fight right now you a dentist walk in you got it you got it like you got it bow down you got it I don't want no smoke let me get out of here M fact word Jimmy before you go man uh what beefs did you have so you had something beef with Jay-Z right no man I just told you we had some feuds stemming from that's beef bro stemming from other things that going on um my problem like it was all part of Us coming up in the game and things were happening we were signing a Rockefeller cam was sign a Rockefeller actually then we got opportunity to Diplomat records um the split between uh Jay and Dame came um artist took sides some took the J side some took the the Dame side which side were you on we was on the Dame side OB Dash yeah Dame Dash that's do you think Dame Dash is misunderstood bro huh you think Dame Dash is misunderstood um too smart for his own good I get that yeah if you had the opportunity again you sometimes being the smartest person in the room could be held against you especially when you want everybody to know that you're the smartest person in the room yeah yeah yeah and I get given a second chance would you still side with Dam never you wouldn't never whoa I never signed a d at all that was no no no like sided with him took his side oh give a second chance I wouldn't have sided with none of them I would we would haveed our [ __ ] business but you learned that with age yeah you heard we had no business butting into that because it wasn't a street beef and this wasn't some [ __ ] that had to do with us ultimately we were holding our [ __ ] down and [ __ ] like that but business-wise if we would if we knew what we knew now we would let them get into that they self y'all can handle that because we got records to put out and music to make and we got our own record label to run you dig and this my hinder what we got going on by us taking sides and that's why I tell people now even when people seeing all the Diplomat [ __ ] like y bro don't don't get in to taking sides with me and my bro because you never know how that might end up and if it end up to a point where we do figure out our situation then I'm looking at you funny now me and you got forever you heard you dig and there are plenty of people that did that and plenty people that didn't and plenty people that showed the same amount of love that he showed to me that it showed to cam when we were going through our imaginary situations and [ __ ] like that cuz it's all imaginary when you know you can figure figure it out now it's a saying that like don't just be in people's business when especially when they've beef and take sides cuz and I I had to learn that a lot I had took me a long time to learn that because of how we come up in the Cod that they supposedly treat us in teach us in the street and [ __ ] like that but sometimes that's not the smallest thing that we can do and then uh push a t did you ever beef with him nah that was some [ __ ] that we was on record um he did some [ __ ] I did some [ __ ] you dig that was it I never followed that I didn't even know did you know there's a pusher T me I ain't got no just know I don't know I know you're from I know you're from Africa and [ __ ] like that but people don't play with me yeah for real and I don't I don't play with people this ain't no playground you heard this is the street it's two ways don't get caught up in a yellow line it's going to be hard to cross bro yeah you heard no I don't trust me I'm from Africa but I saw what happened at the airport so that [ __ ] escalated yeah [ __ ] that was self-defense man God yo bro it looked like that guy was just messing with you bro I wish that could have never happened cuz I was trying to avoid that by all cause but [ __ ] happened sometime man you dig and definitely not not going to allow anybody do anything to me at all bro when I saw that video right like I don't know I just met you today right but I saw when you lifted that guy from the escalator threw him down he literally just went on survival mode bro like it's like there was a button that you switched on and you just like I don't [ __ ] care but yeah yeah no I mean no that's a button that I choose not to push you heard yeah exactly like you can go there quickly I choose to show restraint for a lot of reasons in my life and sometimes it's hard to you dig but where I'm at in life right now I choose positivity or all the other things that come out my way because I know how it is to be negative I was once that negative person that was very aggressive and ready to do something to to you over the minimal alistic of things and [ __ ] like that so I'm blessed to be here to try to be able to show restraint and so so the guy so the guy at the airport you guys on the same plane yeah we on the same plane so you don't have a private jet no I don't have a private jet I'm not a rich man come on Jimmy you made so much money over the years but anyway so you're in the plane what's he what's this guy saying to you like um I don't know man just [ __ ] happens I know just the started from the plane just know that what you see happen on so it starts on the plane you restrain yourself you're like all right cool my dog say whatever you want to say yeah when he gets to the airport I mean the escalator that's when I think he starts hitting you or something right yeah something like that he tried to do something like that and that's what we see man but like I said this is not something that I want to glorify it's not you think he knows who you are um if if he didn't he know now no I'm I'm sorry see sorry cuz some people just provoke I believe he was he was trolling a little bit and things like that which is cool you I mean I'm if if you in New York not time 10 you do know who I am so you know I believe it was a bit of that but God bless man hopefully that they all right hopefully the old man um cool you dig like are you spiritual cuz you mentioned God a lot man yeah I'm very spiritual very spiritual very spiritual I've been my whole family is spiritual and what does that mean in an American sense cuz um us as African for me it means a lot of different things um I was told what the church was as a young age as they drag you to church every Sunday your grandmother your moms and your family and things like that and you really don't understand what that is from that young but as you get older and you go through certain things and you make it through certain things you understand that there is a God and everybody has a relationship with their God different and sometimes going to church doesn't mean that you love your God any less or he loves you any less you dig and you say spiritual I'm very spiritual I say my prayers as much as I can sometime two three four times in a day you dig man doesn't take away from what I do and who I am because I'm still in the line for everything else everybody is in but I know every day that I'm able to wake up and every day I'm able to make a dollar and every day I'm able to keep living the life that I am I should be thankful you heard cuz that's not just me that's a higher vibration that's definitely a God you dig and I'm well aware that I've escaped many things in life that Lord knows I should not be here but then again I should be here cuz he put here for a reason he gives his toughest battles to his strongest people what the Bible say you heard and I've made it through some very tough battles which are minimal to some of the people that I had next to me in their battles you know what I mean so it's like we all got to figure it out Jim Jones thank you so much man and thanks to God for bringing you here man definitely I appreciate for making time for us bro thank you man we appreciate you tired when you got you I appreciate the fact that you could even make it man got any last question yeah man bro you said you've gone through some tough battles and you mentioned how you lost your dad at like 26 but also that you you pretty much raised yourself from the age of 15 you know from that relationship or lack of it like has it affected how you father your children 100% this made me the best father I could be but me my relationship with my father was always a great one even though he wasn't there because every day he wasn't I love them even more I wasn't one of them kids that was bitter you dig I understand that everybody went through something and at that age what he was going through there was a lot of drug addiction and I knew that from a very young age I understood what drugs was and how they were tearing up my family I never held that against my father and I was just blessed able to get back with him before he passed away so he could see that his son was making something out of himself at that time I was already signed to her uh we think we just got the Rockefeller deal so it was a very big deal for me to be able to get back with my father to show him that me somebody that you should be proud of and I know him looking down right now got be like damn I did that so you know and that's how I feel but then in turn TR here my son I don't you know I mean like I just you know mean I pride myself on making sure that I I turned my son into somebody that was way better than I could ever be you oh man yeah that's my guy shout out to you man is your son still wearing Crocs to you br he's a Croc guy you heard yeah Crocs for Life bro Crocs for Life jumping out the beam with a fresh paer Crocs on I don't want to stand him Jimmy before you go your top five rappers all time my top five rappers of all you got to give us your top five bro yeah Tupac definitely Jay-Z Drake um Drake he not like us by default of course um rock cam no Eminem No No whoa not even big you from NY and not to take nothing away from him he's extremely nice it's retardedly nice when it comes to rap but I listen to artists that kind of you know I mean do something for the life that I live and kind of what I've been through and most of these artist or artist that I'm talking about people that you know what I mean like [ __ ] better stop hating on my boy Drake all of a sudden all this Drake land I get it I get it you ain't like us let's not do that let's not forget the 15 years he been spanking [ __ ] around this [ __ ] all all all over this [ __ ] all the alley he been giving most of these artists that are now seeming to be turning on them let's you know let's not some of them gave him their best hits let's not forget the big picture here and [ __ ] like but what the hip-hop culture and this game is built on competition so I yeah but what is he with it you heard you better put your best foot forward but what has Drake given back to the culture oh that you so love here we go um what is he giving back to the culture I seen him take a lot of people on tour and turn them even richer than they already was I I seen him give a lot of people hits that they would have never had if he wouldn't have got on a record things for the culture that wouldn't have happened in turn records that we would have never knew about him to record that the culture love and things like that I mean he's not from here Canada from the hood I don't believe he owes America too much but the monster that give back to where he's from maybe we should ask about what has he done in Canada giving back to his community as opposed to what he giving back to the culture of the United States when this is not where he's from and I think that's the Divide right there now if we talk about what he's done in Canada and if it's not up to par then maybe we can talk about oh you dig but that's I think that's for the people of Canada you dig like yeah cuz but it's the people of America in the hood who made him of course you heard about but that he didn't grw up in America he didn't grew up here you heard so if you was an artist from Africa yeah like boy yeah do you think bnab boy has responsibility what do Niger of United stes n I'm taking it back home bro super duper big yes but that's what people then will call a culture vulture cuz you come into a space you know do what the people of that space do benefit from them is is is you understand what we doing like it's bro it's not because he's not take so he's not taking benab boy is Nigerian it's a Nigerian culture that is now popular in America so Drake took an American culture and enriched himself but what he's saying is that he doesn't owe anything to America cuz he's not from yet right okay right yeah I mean [ __ ] he's got no obligation Fair argument he got no obligation Fair argument yeah like he lived if he lived like I don't I don't that's how I see it you heard like that's how I see it you dig but all these [ __ ] we talking about are filthy filthy filthy rich off the opinions of men you heard what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never but what I'm just trying to tell you is how this game is played yeah you heard yeah geez man the more we talk the more they get paid the loser still gets paid too if there is a loser I don't think there's a loser when they all getting Millions off of this [ __ ] I don't think I mean like and I understand end all be all in the whole circle of it but I'm I've been in this [ __ ] for so long I'm miss you can see the politics of really get you to understand of what's really going on and [ __ ] like that this [ __ ] don't pay me a dollar to talk about it yeah hey man how tight you with Joe Bon he calls us those African guys with numbers oh yeah yeah yeah Jo this my guy buts what's up man he cool yeah he's an instigator definely know how to get under people's skin yeah I've known Joan for so long [ __ ] like that um I'm proud of him put himself in his position a whole new Lane to make a shitload of money um where it stem from the culture this what I'm talking about all the ancillary things that you need to get going on if are a artist of some type of success you got to use that to get where you want look at Joe used his startom and rap no matter what it was to able to finesse a whole new Lane of podcasting that true he's pretty big in damn near one of the forefathers of it from our culture right y'all started before him or after him we started after him but now we have more numbers than him hey doesn't matter no numbers do matter I mean no J and get num I'm cool with that but you won't be never be the considered the forefather of this whole no no no no no no no you dig 100% yeah it's Jo Joan numbers is cool I'm cool with that you get paid and I know what's a race you might be number one you heard yeah yeah but you still never be the forefather always going to have that under him like I've created this Lane for your how I feel about Ling hip hop yeah of course I got that under my belt that's mine y can never say that was yours at all yeah okay how much money you made off of it and [ __ ] like that at the end of the day you it's mine you heard Still My still mine so we always ask anybody any guest that we get on the show in closing what do you want to be remembered as man when it's all said and done I want I want to be remembered I want I want them to know that I gave more than I took because I was able to take a lot in my time amen just like that sh hey man I wish you put me on love and& hip-hop bro they got the African love of Hip Hop they got Jamaican love of Hip Hop they got they got any type of Love of Hip Hop we need the South African love of Hip Hop thanks Jim man shout out thank you bro I appreciate you man thank you we appreciate podcast and chill we out of here man boom peace welcome to Black excellenc do not fear for if you do just sip on some Grand and if you still do ask ourselves what would M [Music] do when they ask you do not fear for if you do just say an TV this is the the medicine of censorship this is the pill which one is that one podcast and chill	he passed away yeah like was it um medical thing or yeah natural causes oh damn like when you young or um maybe when I was uh 23 24 oh damn bro SED to hear that man maybe 26 right before my son passed right before my God bless right before my son Bor bro but you like 47 right now I look good for 47y old man no homo you know what I mean thank you very much like what was what's keeping you looking so good is it the yoga yeah a lot of yoga a lot of Pilates I stay in shape um I'm very uh very big on Fitness um work out like five six times a week um it's one of the best ways to stay young and have better chances of living a long life is that why you do it or maybe there's other purpose like you know a lot of people are in gym for their mental health I mean it's very it's very it's very therapeutic I will say that but my main goal is to look good of course but to give me better chances of living forever bro so how you got into rap um I don't know correct me if I'm wrong right but you used to skip church and go to the train station to to rap like no I never skipped Church to go on the train station and rap I skipped Church to go to	6	4	8	he passed away yeah like was it um medical thing or yeah natural causes oh damn like when you young or um maybe when I was uh 23 24 oh damn bro SED to hear that man maybe 26 right before my son passed right before my God bless right before my son Bor bro but you like 47 right now I look good for 47y old man no homo you know what I mean thank you very much like what was what's keeping you looking so good is it the yoga yeah a lot of yoga a lot of Pilates I stay in shape um I'm very uh very big on Fitness um work out like five six times a week um it's one of the best ways to stay young and have better chances of living a long life is that why you do it or maybe there's other purpose like you know a lot of people are in gym for their mental health I mean it's very it's very it's very therapeutic I will say that but my main goal is to look good of course but to give me better chances of living forever bro	I don't know correct me if I'm wrong right but you used to skip church and go to the train station to to rap like no	0,4,6	2,-1,3	0	4	6	2	-1	3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr730VmL-lk	4,054	rr730VmL-lk	2024-06-27 00:00:00	like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano no well Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he showed me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah just understand everybody going there my guy I understand the hate exactly what you're saying yeah bro what's his name I don't it's fine you remember those some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I ain't scared of nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that the dentist yeah dentist got me there what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never [Music] [Music] yo Jimmy you do not look like you want to be here bro like someone forced you to be it's like you have to do that par they're the biggest podcast in Africa you have to be there I never look like I want to be nowhere man you got to part of me but congratulations to yall having the biggest podcast in Africa that that that's very big Africa being one of the biggest continents in the world a lot of people over there shut up man why you so tired bro crazy weekend I've been working all weekend shows different states traveling Planes Trains automobiles you know how I be a little bit too much partying yeah road kill it's tough but what's up how y'all feeling I'm good bro I literally saw um I saw your video uh yesterday for your new single the one you shot in Miami two turn temp yeah yeah how you feel about it bro that [ __ ] is lit man looks like our Vibe bro cuz we've been to Miami myself and and my partner but we never like experienced the Miami night life we were playing in Florida yeah we're DJing in Florida but two South Africans like the diaspora then West Palm Beach as well yeah DJ also yeah like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano what it's a genre it's called a piano no no cuz I'm a piano even you heard like you saw he did the whole Keys thing it has nothing to do with the piano that's where it started but has nothing to do with it these days when when I met charlot man he said the exact same thing he's like oh so you're a podcaster I'm like yeah and then you DJs I'm like no I play I'm a Pian like you're a Pianist man you one talented [ __ ] n it's a genre of music man what kind of genre is that like it's like slowed down house music with a lot of s that African influence that's the only way I can describe it so it's a it's a mix of a marriage house yeah a marriage of house music which originated here at Chicago and stuff and then we slowed it down created a sub genre called guo where guys were sort of rapping but very minimalist raps called guo then the kids were born like in the 2000s late '90s then created a whole meshup of those two genres and it's called Piano cuz a a lot of Americans think it's um afro beats it's not afro beats yeah a lot of the hence I avoided saying afro beats cuz AFR beats is from Nigeria and amap piano is far from afro beat afro beat borrows from am piano now where is amap piano originated from South Africa from the hoods from the Cassis yeah but when I when I was looking at your video bro uh the only thing in my mind was like bro what's a night like out with Jim Jones CU that [ __ ] look lit there [ __ ] everywhere bro um please please describe a night out in Miami with Jim so let's say we going to Miami right now I mean some nice are better than others but been doing it so long it's kind of like the the bare minimum for us to do in Miami just having fun but it still work at the same time like every every I'm I'm not just going out partying for no reason ni like that was we knew what we was kind of getting into we wanted to film a video so we knew we was going to ramp it up a bit take it to the to the highest form going crazy as we could but that actually happened to fall on a big weekend um and one of my dudes was celebrating so everything kind of happened for a reason but yeah Miami could take you for take you for a few a few trips man like okay so so so me and you we get in the car right I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm in Miami I hate you cuz you got a house there you stay there right yeah I got I got I got cribs there so I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm by the strip you know that Miami strip right yeah yeah yeah I mean see that's the thing about Miami when you come to visit Miami that's where people are know at like the strip and things like that I guess stand by Collins and ocean driveing all that people that live there don't really do the strip like that like you just you dig people congregate usually at night time and all the spots that usually go on down there um okay so we got security obviously you got to roll around with security right um yeah I mean that' be the safest thing for me to do so we get out the cut with security when you get to the bouncers are they letting us in cuz it's Jim Jones or are they checking our IDs cuz they've been checking our IDs just to buy beer here bro Che ID everywhere yeah everywhere yeah no I I don't think I produced my ID in since I was a teenager at clubs but yeah you won't need your ID when you with me so we walking in right yeah we going to get in oh do we have a section do we they going to give us a section VIP yeah they going to give us a section we going to get some bottles and let the night ensue got this thing called Power Hour you go to the club maybe like 2:45 to 3:45 in and out no sweat so what's the what's the purpose of that exercise the Power Hour yeah like why would you be in the cloud for an hour why would I be in a club for 4 hours it's Fu I mean I've been part I've been partying since I've been 14 I've been making money to party since I've been 18 I'm kind of burnt out so at this point I try to wait till the club is at the most popping or lest moment which is usually that hour right there and I get to enjoy everything that happened tonight and leave out of there and not be all burnt out what what does your wife say bro cuz you're married man you're surrounded by all these girls like you know I mean I'm going to worry about the women yeah is minimal to the money worry about the money more than anything so so a woman doesn't like give you grief when you come home I yeah you get you get grief all the time if you in a relationship no matter what you do if you had a job on Wall Street you get home you're going to get grief no around it you heard yeah there's women everywhere unless you work in the LGBT Club then you know I mean even there you still going to go home and get like it's no way around it you're going to get you know I mean like yeah so you've never had like been home and you had to explain like yo no man I was just doing music video it's just work like I don't know that good you going to explain yourself in every relationship and things like that I got a good woman at home who understands a job I have and things like that so for the most part but for the most part I'm a very responsible respectable person when when I'm in the streets and when I do have to interact with females and things like that yeah anyway H ladies and gentlemen welcome to another special edition of podcasting chill so CU yeah I am here we're chilling with the [ __ ] Legend Kings of Harlem please make some noise for Jim Jones Jim I gotta say bro I gotta say bro I'm going to be honest with you when I find that your name was GMO geloo gelo I'm like I'm like Jim Jones losing some G points here man what the [ __ ] is that I'm Puerto Rican and a rubian my pops is Puerto Rican the word gelo means William in English is a Spanish Spanish name cuz you know what I was thinking I was thinking that guy who does the show late night you know the short guy who does like the interviews with um this late night comedian man what are the late night shows oh man not uh bad with these oh gosh the late night guy bro uhri or something not Corin O'Brien no not Trevor Noah the other American guy man like uh old new no he's like jimm Kimel Jimmy Kimel jimy he's got that he's got that short guy his name is julo oh I don't I don't I don't got got me messed up I don't even really watch TV like that bro okay I'll be out chasing the money I ain't even got time to do that and if and if I do got some time I'm trying to get a little bit of rest or I'm thinking about money [ __ ] is crucial out here right now you better get to your dollar a lot of [ __ ] about to happen and if you ain't got no coins boy you going to be [ __ ] up you ever been to uh Puerto Rico yeah I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times yeah but business not for the Heritage part of it so like you don't know where like your your your parents were at Familiar of the place where my father's from but I never really got to do the whole go to give with my family understand the roots understand you know I mean like I didn't get to get to that part of it but I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times you find like that's important like to know you it's definitely important I had this um I did an interview not too long ago about um how important the roots are and get to know where my family from know I mean so we'll start to do that pretty soon so so so your dad you know you know your dad right yeah he's passed away oh okay God bless rest in peace what happened to him he passed away yeah like was it um medical thing or yeah natural causes oh damn like when you young or um maybe when I was uh 23 24 oh damn bro SED to hear that man maybe 26 right before my son passed right before my God bless right before my son Bor bro but you like 47 right now I look good for 47y old man no homo you know what I mean thank you very much like what was what's keeping you looking so good is it the yoga yeah a lot of yoga a lot of Pilates I stay in shape um I'm very uh very big on Fitness um work out like five six times a week um it's one of the best ways to stay young and have better chances of living a long life is that why you do it or maybe there's other purpose like you know a lot of people are in gym for their mental health I mean it's very it's very it's very therapeutic I will say that but my main goal is to look good of course but to give me better chances of living forever bro so how you got into rap um I don't know correct me if I'm wrong right but you used to skip church and go to the train station to to rap like no I never skipped Church to go on the train station and rap I skipped Church to go to the train station and go play video games and run the streets and do everything a bad little kid did from the streets of hollow when we was like S8 and n and things like that I don't know if you know about anything about the subway system in New York but that's the pathway system that get you to all five burrows and we definitely was on the subway which maybe we shouldn't have been but we was a little uh loose um for me rapping actually rapping didn't start later on in life to actually uh C and um they I got a deal and things like that and that was the first time me myself really thought about actually raing cuz I'll be honest with you like um dipet I don't really know much about dipet however I know about you guys individually like Cameron old boy like one of my favorite songs uh jul sna had hear that that was Cameron and Jules and jwes he both was on he both old boy and heon yeah why don't you jump on those tracks man those tracks are massive they was already done I was there for the making of both of them incredible tracks yeah and then how did dipit start start like how did you guys start the whole movement um organically kiss him Harem gr up together um talented kids Cam and Mason BL sh was they already was doing music um Everybody gradu graduated high school I didn't get to go to college they went to college they got kicked out they got kicked out they come moved in with me from that that was a uh foundation for them to D into the music you've been in the game for like 20 30 odd years right been in the game for since 1997 how would you describe the different eras of like um hip-hop right especially now cuz um obviously we all know about the Kendrick Lamar song they're not like us but I didn't know how big it was until I landed in in in America and it's like it's like a movement the video yeah it's like huge it's massive bro yeah it's a big record Kendrick did that shout out to Kendrick shout out to my boy Drake but what do you think about like the evolution of hip-hop in all the different areas you've been a part of what do you mean what do I think about it it's a great thing to be a part of something that um you could only dream of everybody doesn't get a chance to be in this game um I've been fortunate enough to be here for so many genres and errors and seen so many people come and go I've watched the smallest artist to the biggest artist who you thow will be here forever and going um I got stories for days I can tell you about um how I feel about it I feel great I feel blessed you know what I mean I feel lucky this [ __ ] don't it's not promised and for me to still be here is definitely a blessing so in the 90s what was the vibe like man like like what in the 90s as far as what in hip-hop yeah it was it was different um 90s was a great era um one of my favorite errors um that was the era we first first came outside um started to get out deal uh very aggressive era uh no social media um cell phones were just being born um everything that you seen you was something that you could grab on to um artists had to go to the towns we couldn't just get on your phone and music you had to go get you couldn't just have access to it so it was a it was it it was a hunt um you had to touch the Tails kiss babies do radio everything like it was just a different ER but who was around like during that time when you who was around like Tupac was did you like meet Tupac Tupac I didn't get to meet Tupac um Tupac passed away what 95 was that yeah right in big in '97 um no I got to see Tupac do a few times in Harlem um that was dope but um not Tupac passed away before we got to get in the record game but I've seen a lot of a lot of artists in my time from a young age to old age we were partying in clubs as teenagers before we even got a record deal and things like that like we were in clubs since high school and [ __ ] like that so any interactions with Big L he was from Harlem right yeah shouts to Big Al Big Al was definitely from Harlem um 139th NFL Big L um I was one of the Cam's uh close friends um actually put cam on a dope record that started to give uh Cam and bloodshed and and her mcgree her was already popping too but guy gave them some notice when it came to R so when you come out like who's who's popping at that time is it git is it mop D it's way before G when we came out I was like Eminem just dropped oh [ __ ] this is Slim Shady not M like Slim Shady I I remember that that was like cam had dropped and Eminem had dropped DMX had dropped Nori had dropped um Big Pun had dropped lud Chris Luda had just started coming out um Nelly Nelly down down baby yeah shouts to coola love um yeah that type of error shouts to shouts to Fat Joe shouts to Buster they was already in it uh Nas was already in it Jay start going crazy that's when he just started taking over with the 1 million 2 million 3 million 4 um yeah very competitive very edgy um lot of the big dogs um had real roots in the streets um especially in the streets of New York so that put that put a real Mystique on everything when it came to the music um all the events with topnotch um it just was a different feel man it was a heavy heavy dope boy era um this was before the drug dealers wanted to be Rappers that's when the rappers wanted to be drug dealers you know what I mean and and that Arrow was was a very dope high impact trenel and Russian it was a was a great error bro I saw an interview you did correct me if I'm wrong I might be paraphrasing but you mentioned a place called the tunnel or something where everybody would be and you guys were [ __ ] [ __ ] in the bathrooms please please describe that manest cuz a place like that couldn't exist right now bro with all this woke [ __ ] I mean yeah and the cancel cult I would say it was probably the greatest Club The Hip hopers have seen and it was during the 90s era it was the Golden Era um in New York they got you had stories about like Studio 54 in that era when everybody used all the biggest of big used to go to Studio 54 well the tunnel was what Studio 54 was to that era to our era and it didn't make so many people and nationalities and genres and just everybody was like a big pumbo all for the sake of the culture you had some of the flyest models to some of the biggest drug dealers biggest gang bangers I mean every former elicit street life you could think of was in the spot along with the biggest artists and rappers and actors and models that you could find into all athletes um it would definitely like that um and was this like per invite or just like anybody could Rock up there nah you couldn't just rock up there for this is '90s entry was like $100 first of all $100 for a club that was the first time we ever heard of it and that was a lot of money back then especially we probably started in '94 going there teenager so $100 was sto a lot of money in New York at the time sneakers wasn't even costing $100 um to get in the club you definitely had to be connected to know somebody or you had to wait on a long line that usually was a block long um they had like an Express line you could pay $100 to get on Express line that'll get you to the door quicker and then you pay your entry fee um streets was blocked off you was a big dog you was able to bring your cars down there I was able to bring like four five of them if I wanted to um yeah the club was just it was different man pull up to the door security they taking people's shoes off they searching your jacket twisting people inside out like they about to go on the Rikers Island I got to I gave security High files I never took my shoes off and not since high school I when we used go in high school we used to get our shoes taken off and things like that make you feel like you going to the cental bookings and [ __ ] like that so what gave you that clout that allowed you to bring four cars in when nobody or you had to be a big dog to bring four cars in when you could just give them a high five instead of removing your shoes and you're young by then like what gives you that CL I was a big dog since a small pup bro J yeah man what gave you those you know credentials at such a young age to suppos all these people cuz Dr Tre was there yeah you putting in four cars not removing shoes I was a good Lord Biden citizen everybody love Jim Jones even even the girls like would you just rock up they say let's go to the bathroom that's it yeah now that well yeah there was a lot of that going on they had a uh the layout was different first of all the club was a block long a whole city block um wow there was like three other four other clubs within the club or spots that look like clubs um the main floor was humongously big the DJ was like a a lifeguard Tower in the middle of the club um you go upstairs they had a VR big V PE upstairs and then go through a door it open up to the bathroom the bathroom was like a unisex Club [ __ ] had a big ass bar in the middle of the bathroom uh bunch of stalls lined up um that [ __ ] was like a hotel inside Lions cocaine everything yeah they was going down a lot of sex was going down there a lot of a lot of drugs was going down in there um yeah the tunnel was definitely uh a landmark to New York City when it comes to the clubs I I definitely um I always think about that club um it did a lot for me in my life um it gave me a lot of imagination when it came to to the culture and the things I was seeing from a young age as to where I want to be and the direction I want to go in yeah we was going there since high school so when you seeing people like Mike Tyson and all these people coming in big cheer on and just having their way as a kid go out got to go to school the next morning you you in school thinking about that [ __ ] like w man this school [ __ ] [ __ ] this school [ __ ] I need some money and I need to go to the tunnel that's all I want to [ __ ] do that's wild man now can you imagine because we in sa right we're looking at all the videos that you guys are pulling out there like we're looking at this lifestyle and then you F Track to 2024 right M and the P didy thing breaks out right I mean i' rather not even to get into that yeah just don't I rather the do I don't you know I mean like it's not it's not my business oh I mean like this you heard God bless it's too much n yeah and it's not me to have an opinion on certain things cuz I ain't perfect I've been through my own [ __ ] in life and I see a lot of people that have even this doing too much just know that I ain't perfect so I choose not to talk on certain [ __ ] that you know what I mean a lot of other people people been talking about I let them keep doing the talk and I got other [ __ ] to work on I'm trying to work on me being a better person yeah I respect I respect that man but were ever part of any gang or like you sounding like the F never hey we don't the F in South Africa man only PS I'm just playing with you yeah I've been affiliated with the bloods in New York City um ENT Tre um yeah so crazy have you ever been to sa like have you ever been to Africa or um I've been to Africa where did you go uh gaban gille damn G to perform there um I went to perform there but uh got some great friends there they actually had ran the country at the time this is before the big yeah yeah overtaking and stuff like that but I had a ball out there I got to go to an island called Pony um that was a dope experience as they took me to the jungles I got to see some of the indigenous people um it was like a a real um life Awakening like and I got to see how also the rich people live out there also like I got to see both sides like that you know what I mean it was it was a great experience I out there for like a week um I haven't been back since but yeah it was dope you never been to South Africa never been to South Africa bro so the reason why I asked that is because like yo bro like American culture has infiltrated South Africa like you can't believe like you know we got people worshiping you guys you know Jim Jones rappers and everything you so we've got rappers who rap just like you and youd say they're like Bloods and Crips but they've never they've never left sa you know cuz that's how influential uh the culture is right but from you when you see or hear that like what do you guys think like do you think is like some [ __ ] like or like leave don't don't follow the gang life you know what I mean oh as far as that is concerned um there's two sides to that this what you do as a gang member that turns it into something that becomes a crime or whatever that end but the Brotherhood part of it is what the most of us joined up for when we coming up in the hood and need that Brotherhood lean on somebody is that type of camaraderie that pretty much stood for and there's a lot of other great attributes that comes with affiliation or you becoming a part of a gang um it gets twisted up because we all come up in these urban communities and our back is against the wall we don't have no opportunities um it's very dormant uh we on top of each other so naturally testosterone testosterone wins in a lot of these situations where these kids find s in bad situations and for that I would tell people to kind of stay away from this type of life um I don't want to oppose my will we all going to experience what we going to experience but I can't tell you the consequences to this type of Lifestyle could be very dear you heard ethal a lot of people don't get to make it where I made it and Escape that lifestyle that could have put me away or could have put me in the dirt I mean so here as a Living testament to tell you that these consequences are terrible the odds on you making it out of that life in a positive manner are very slim I mean but if you are in that life and you taking it as a Brotherhood and try to uplift your brothers I know there's a lot of people around you that are doing a lot of [ __ ] that that that that that's very crazy you know what I mean if you're a part of that and you got the positive minder then you try to uplift your brother and instill some positivity within them because it's very cold out here so I've always been curious bro like so when that when you you you start getting immersed you know or Affiliated in the gang life how does that affect the conversation at home with your parents like your mom your dad and just the domestic you know Dynamics I a't grow my parents I was a grown man since I was like 15 I made my own money since I was like 16 my grandmother left me in high school man I was raising my Sisters by myself in the projects I hustle every I ever got in my life that's why music saved my life I was so grateful to be able to be next to cam and him getting a deal at such a very young age to be able to still be making money off that [ __ ] right now you were U anr for Warner uh music group yeah I was the director of anr for Warner Music Group um years ago uh shouts to Kevin L shouts to Leo Cohen for giving me the opportunity um great opportunity uh I excelled at it extremely very young with a lot of power but didn't understand what I had at hand um didn't have too many people in my corner that were telling me the things that I should have been doing with that type of position as opposed to some type of weird way be hating you know I mean so that's what happened but as you get older you learn you learn and you move on who did you discover while you were in that position uh I would tell you a story I I know I've helped try s uh they come to tra songs that you know today he's always in he's always in we know why no n but he was a young kid at the time and uh they were actually going to cut him from the label we had a big uh um it's like uh one of them uh some events they be doing not the talent shows the uh well was something like that all the artists had to come perform and then they pretty much didn't know that they was on a Cho and block at the time when I was an executive and and he was one of the artists that they were going to cut and I remember Kevin L specifically ask me yo what we should do with him I'm about to cut him I don't know what to do with him and when I heard him uh singing and I saw him perform I was like this is this is one artist you should keep and did that and now we all tra songs on so many dope ass records is it true you could have signed Drake yeah I had a chance to sign uh I had a chance to do business with Drake um through Allan grum blat um when I was doing business at cotch um it was a different era I didn't understand what Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he show me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah understand everybody going at my guy I understand the hate man the hate is so phenomenal it's just how this game go man this game is so tricky man these [ __ ] just like females in this game we ain't going to get into that man there's a lot of uh but wait wait wait so so with Drake like are you are you seeing him perform like try songs or like you just heard of the guy just a conversation Allan called me about signing a kid let me hear some of his music um and I was like the kid know how to rap but I don't know what to do with him his image is crazy and him couple years later heard him on a Wheezy mixtape going crazy I was like wow this kid is about to go wham inside of this business and he sure did and you're know trying to call Weezy like yo man I gotta get that kid or something n he was already signed a young money and jcole did you miss on jcole as well I could have signed J Cole bro jcole was in the studio with me every day and at that point jcole I he's he remind me of a knockoff Drake and not to say it like that but that's who he sounded like he came to my studio every day rapping to these Drake beats rapping like Drake Cadence like Drake he could rap his ass off yeah you heard yeah but it was already a drake out there he had the Caesar it was different like two lightskinn [ __ ] might not K when raing the same but you never know what you got in front of you man you dig and those are lessons I I've took with me to moving forward when I see artists and and I hate artists I always give them more than just hearing just just I got to I got to I gotta try to capture the whole picture I make sure I just don't you mean so I don't miss nothing else because I've missed a few people and I've helped a few people um gain a lot of success in in my time in this industry whether it been by me having a meeting with them or me having influence on them or you know I mean so you know and there's never like any animosity like Jake Cole or Drake never came up to be like yo you could have signed me look at me now bro I mean me and Drake is cool as [ __ ] um I see J Cole I don't think he I mean I don't think that's no he some [ __ ] he might want to keep to himself not to be like that sh the co he not that type of artist he's not a you I mean yeah you did I look I look at as we can see I want to mention an artist who like I'm really fond of like I think this guy's [ __ ] amazing musically talented everything that he touched like turned to Gold who's that uh kid k bro K Cy yeah yeah did you help him with his career yeah I birth K Cy wow J me how so bro bir them nobody would have know who K Cy was at all if I a jump on this remix record but it wasn't even remix he wasn't even a nobody like I tell a story all the time I had a inter used to work for me said he got some dudes that do videos they would like to do a video for me told them come let me see they work they show me their videos the first video they showed me was of the kid Cy record he's on the top of a roof some simple video the record sound more wavy than the opportunity for them to do a video I'm like well if you'll get me the beat to this record I Remix this record and then y'all can shoot the video to that record wow and that's what they did and then um the radio station ripped the record off of YouTube and start playing it at Hot 97 and K Cy was born bro why do you think especially about kid Cy cuz from him when I listen to music right it wasn't really no no other kid Cy record besides the one that I was on yeah man he's not in they don't play his records where I be at at all not to be funny wow bro and we listen to him like all that day and night you know remember only record I know yeah it's the only record I know unless it's like a pop record that everybody know and I and I'm even not paying attention to it but he don't his records don't get played nowhere that i' be at not like that unless I go into a different farm and that's the type of music they playing in one of these funny clubs that play fist pump music and pop music he's not into like you dig like they don't play his music in the clubs I'll be at maybe in Vegas and [ __ ] like that but that's not like they not pumping this [ __ ] in live they not pumping this [ __ ] in Atlanta they not pumping this [ __ ] down the Stafford room or you know what I mean like they I'm not saying nothing like that but I don't hear it in the strip clubs I don't hear like you know what I mean so but he's a very successful person with some of the greats like Kanye to put him in a position to win and [ __ ] like that and I think he's way more better as an actor than he is a musician and that's just my POS that's just my opinion he did I seen him in the movie uh about the race car [ __ ] where he was F the playe like he got a lot of Charisma and [ __ ] like that on on camera for what I could see and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean bro I mean for you as Jim Jones to to see these kids you're introduced to them by an intern and then to hop onto that song it's something selfless you know to just give these unknown kids an opportunity of sharing a song with you where do you think that selflessness comes from how was that unknown kid I'm still an unknown kid anytime I get an opportunity that's an opportunity I should be able to give to somebody else bro the fact that you could even come to our podcast shout out man yeah man you don't even know us exactly what you're saying yeah know us what's his name I don't it's fine you know remember those kids who who did the video for him anyway you know remember I remember like that kids that got the biggest African podcast I'm definitely going to know like them is my guys right family right there appreciate I really mean that that sincerely and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean I I bump in too many people in my life and been across too many people in my journey to actually remember everybody's name but the face and the cause and I mean BR I want to understand right the first time you came up with the concept For Love and Hip Hop where were you what was happening that um that was something like uh me and Christy she had opportunity to do uh her own reality show um and actually fell through and that kind of she was kind of she wanted to do that I can see she was eager about doing that when it fell through kind you know I mean [ __ ] with her mood and [ __ ] like that so so so so so the initial concept what was it was just Chrissy just showing like what's life the initial concept was about she had her own thing going on about a group of women that was supposed to do a reality show had nothing to do with me yeah that [ __ ] fell through she lost that opportunity to end up not going people have been begging me to do reality TV for past couple years at the time and I and you reality TV gold man I refused to do it yeah and then when that happened I was like all right I got I'll do this for you and we'll make it about you and females that have to that are involved with artist such as myself and show what the relationship side is when you're dealing with a high-profile artist and you know what I mean how so that's how that started bro and that thing became a monster super super monster like it's still big till this day bro 100% so do you have like uh ownership in that we we were link a all that you know at that time when maybe the second season we just in a position where we refuse to compromise our dignity for anyone or any dollar and sometimes it be like that you know what I mean um but ain't no stress off my back T my hat to him you no but but but we got to talk about that because you see like this podcast um it's blackowned right it's just me and a couple of other people that are involved in the podcast right and we're always striving for ownership so a lot of um Brands and investors have come to try to buy the podcast and we say know cuz like we believe in ownership and telling the story the way we want to tell it right so what went wrong in that because as a hustler I believe like that's your also end goal MH um it wasn't something that I was just a lot of different layers and [ __ ] like that and I was too worried about doing other things and we had the opportunity to gain all ownership 50% of the whole TV show and all that but it still wasn't worth GE bro that's insane you just let go like that yeah bro it's your brain child bro there is no Love and& Hip Hop without you bro I still got a brain you heard yeah those are for people that don't have a brain that lack creativity people that steal things from you lack what you don't have remember that yeah whether it's money whether it's creativity whatever it is they lack what you don't have ultimately they steal from you you heard I mean we didn't even know C beef if it wasn't for Love and& Hip Hop right yeah yeah yeah definitely yeah bro you gave birth to so many many people man like VI their careers that's the god in me that's why I'm always going to be good yeah she man so any other shows that you're working on like in the pipeline that you want to do I was telling you I working on um a late night show a late night um a late night variety show live in studio audience hopefully we'll be filming in about 40 to 60 days um beautiful concept I do I do believe people going enjoy the show um like I was saying I can't do um a podcast is too personal for me and [ __ ] like that and me watching these podcasts um dealing with these artists me myself don't have the temperament for it you know what I mean um I [ __ ] I T my hat to y'all to have to deal with artists such as myself cuz you never know what type of mood they going to come in you know what I me some of these artists have a air to them where they feel like they better than most and they would never sit and have tea with the with the maintenance guy you heard me myself me going to maintenance guy going to smoke blunts before I get on stage [Music] I live my life and and and currently uh before we let you go man what do you think about the state of hip-hop cuz like statistically numbers wise it's not looking good man e beats has played all over New York now there's now the pianos this is this is what they want you to do this is how to get us to go against each other it's all under the same culture umbrella it's afro music ref I'm a piano I'm a piano explain that what do you mean by that bro yeah R&B what do you mean by that ultimately it's all from under the same origin and creativity of the same person from the same colors is all our thing n but let's be honest Jimmy hip-hop hasn't involved bro when I was listening to Eminem what do you want mean what do you mean hip-hop hasn't evolved you guys are still rapping about the same stuff it don't you you missing the point of what hip-hop is yeah hip-hop has evolved to a point that you can be the music genres that you're told them about can be noticed you think that if there was a hip hop that I'm a piano would be noticed or afro Beach would be noticed think about that and not to take nothing away from y because you always have culture and yes that music might be big within the continent of Africa yeah right but to cross over to American Fame and commercialism you don't think that the hip-hop culture played a big part in that that's that that's a different argument now you want to have a different argument I'm telling you the semantics of where we going with this you dig like you talking about uh the the hip hop music is damn percentage that's how they want us to think when it's really not cuz we all uplifting each other you heard you think that the country music that's going on in the black people winning is not because of the hip-hop culture no no no I think no one is disputing that however so then when you say hip-hop numbers are down and damn for who no I'm talking about I know what you're talking about but damn for who tell me who it's down for because I'm still making the money I make yeah I do believe there's still a lot of artist that's making a shitload of money that they make I don't think it went down for them yeah you know what I mean but I understand what you're talking about they say the numbers and then rock and roll genre might be up like I don't really you heard like that's I'm into this business you heard and it's always up for us you heard cuz this is a business we make money out of nothing it's never a downside to this okay and and that's why I'm saying I think we're having two different conversations here cuz the conversation I'm having is I'm having I'm having right is that in as much as he's saying yeah the numbers are down because they orchestrated and whatever I get that right but also that's why I asked do you think Hip-hop has evolved cuz I grew up on hip-hop right and the same things um quote unquote you guys were rapping about in the '90s how can hipop how can hip hop evolved in the same thing that Africa been Africa been going on since the '90s aren't y going still going through the same thing we are huh we are so how could the music evolve when the music ref the time ah okay get you real stories what you want us to rap about [ __ ] that that we don't have ah we talk about [ __ ] we dream about all the time that's the good The Good Life the colorin the Ros we talk about but the truth is how the music going to change when our position hasn't changed when we still going through the same [ __ ] we've been going through okay and y'all being from Africa should know that more than we know that yeah that's facts that's fact go about that own Cod yeah yeah yeah yeah you know are bro that's a valid fact but how do you feel man like you've come from an era where you guys when what you you said in your raps I mean evolved as far as dition as far as what we rap about cuz we still stuck in the same place but as a business it has evolved to one of big time yeah yeah biggest big time money making machines you can attach yourself to this made some of the richest individuals whether you're the rapper the lawyer the executive like that's true you know what I mean the supply chain but then I think that's why you know when you get the likes of a wz coming out and Kendrick Lamar they stand out like a sore thumb because like they are rapping about but that's what music is about to stand out for those who that want to look like everybody they don't get nowhere why you think Dip set was so successful sucessful yeah because we stood out on purpose we don't want to look like or H or sound like no one else m we want yall to above all see us when we walk in the building and hear us when we get on that [ __ ] mic you heard why would you guys the diplomats I never like where did that come from the diplomats the name the diplomats yeah we diplomats oh ah okay that sounded cool no we diplomats we are Harlem diplomats and we take it as that you heard we go to the Embassy when we land in countries you heard all right okay okay okay I I sort of get that bro so in the business and how you still making money right now like from music just like how is it royalties damn you asking a lot of questions bro no I want to know bro I'm so I've got so many questions I want to ask you bro I'll tell you this music is supposed to be used so you can make as much ancillary dollars as you can because the music ain't promised everybody 15 minutes of fame ranges from a small 15 minutes of fame to a run like we having within that minute the 15 minutes the fame you better do a lot of other things to secure your bag because music is not going to be thing you be able to get paid off forever unless you're the DRS and the J that's not even 1% that's you know what I mean so you think about that so you better have some hustle you better learn how to you better have some business sense you better put your credit in order you better do a few things to secure you if you are artist [ __ ] leverage powerful penda yeah man how do you feel man when these kids these days wrap up about you know trying to act tough and rap about stuff they never done like you guys red about stuff you lived I mean I do believe a lot of these kids are going through a lot of [ __ ] that we went through and then a lot of the kids are talking about [ __ ] that they see but most of the kids are all growing up in the same community that all of that [ __ ] is going on so who tells them they don't have the right to talk about [ __ ] that they're not doing when that's still [ __ ] that they're seeing oh sure Ah that's powerful but the problem I have a problem when they rapping like they did it but they just R from somebody else's Vantage Point understand that but most of these artists that you've seen in the game some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I pretty firm in his in in his music that I'm a believer that he did some of that [ __ ] he can talk about just me I don't know you possibilities are possibilities but some things just seem correct you know mean I can't tell you for sure cuz it is music you know what I mean but some things seem correct [ __ ] man bro you got to come out to man you got to you know we haven't had a proper uh hip-hop concert in sa like since 50 N since you are come on back to the city does concerts man ah those are for old people empd the bigest artist in South Africa right now Hip-Hop Hip-Hop uh there's a guy called nastyc but nesty came here he doesn't know know you f poopa who's that nah F poopa Nigerian West African artist massive he used to pop not now for real still massive bigger than like ber boyo still it's different type of music oh stadiums is 50 60,000 people like what is this following this gu what's his name f poop F poop I don't know him bro he's from Nigeria yeah yeah yeah yeah Nigerian Prett pretty big yeah humongous bro how big was was 50 Cent bro like during his Reign man like how big was 50 Cent [ __ ] retardedly big it wasn't nothing bigger than him was Drake before Drake was dring he was oh [ __ ] he did it like it was like 50 was on a run that he never even touched the club bro like [ __ ] never seen him in the club he only did Arenas I never knew too many artist that just did that you dig like the [ __ ] was super massive every [ __ ] Rec he came out with was was going platinum and I'm just telling you the facts you heard and I always got to speak factual no matter how I feel about a person the [ __ ] was on top Super on top it was no way to knock him off his d i remember Jay-Z dropped the diss track on you did you guys resolve that beef I think you were not happy with him as the president of De jam oh man um we never really had a beef um we had some feuds back and forth through the situations that were going on over other people um and me being who I am I had to hold my ground um but to know that he actually talked about me in multiple of his records mean that I was pretty big in his eyes you dig true true cuz I didn't hear him talk about too many people in his career and if he did talk you talk about you on the record that meant something you know what I mean and I was then so for me that I I I took that like what it was like you dig like yeah J doesn't respond to take the time out to say my name you heard if I'm if I'm not that big of a deal to you you would never ever a am I am I right talk about a person you heard true it's it's a form of respect and ackowledge 100% am I right in saying a lot of [ __ ] are scared of Jay-Z bro cuz we interviewed Dam Ian I don't I don't know I'm not a lot of [ __ ] you heard I'm a man so I couldn't I I couldn't tell you that you heard I ain't scared to nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that that that dentist yeah the dentist got me there you heard you can walk in you could walk we about to fight right now you a dentist walk in you got it you got it like you got it bow down you got it I don't want no smoke let me get out of here M fact word Jimmy before you go man uh what beefs did you have so you had something beef with Jay-Z right no man I just told you we had some feuds stemming from that's beef bro stemming from other things that going on um my problem like it was all part of Us coming up in the game and things were happening we were signing a Rockefeller cam was sign a Rockefeller actually then we got opportunity to Diplomat records um the split between uh Jay and Dame came um artist took sides some took the J side some took the the Dame side which side were you on we was on the Dame side OB Dash yeah Dame Dash that's do you think Dame Dash is misunderstood bro huh you think Dame Dash is misunderstood um too smart for his own good I get that yeah if you had the opportunity again you sometimes being the smartest person in the room could be held against you especially when you want everybody to know that you're the smartest person in the room yeah yeah yeah and I get given a second chance would you still side with Dam never you wouldn't never whoa I never signed a d at all that was no no no like sided with him took his side oh give a second chance I wouldn't have sided with none of them I would we would haveed our [ __ ] business but you learned that with age yeah you heard we had no business butting into that because it wasn't a street beef and this wasn't some [ __ ] that had to do with us ultimately we were holding our [ __ ] down and [ __ ] like that but business-wise if we would if we knew what we knew now we would let them get into that they self y'all can handle that because we got records to put out and music to make and we got our own record label to run you dig and this my hinder what we got going on by us taking sides and that's why I tell people now even when people seeing all the Diplomat [ __ ] like y bro don't don't get in to taking sides with me and my bro because you never know how that might end up and if it end up to a point where we do figure out our situation then I'm looking at you funny now me and you got forever you heard you dig and there are plenty of people that did that and plenty people that didn't and plenty people that showed the same amount of love that he showed to me that it showed to cam when we were going through our imaginary situations and [ __ ] like that cuz it's all imaginary when you know you can figure figure it out now it's a saying that like don't just be in people's business when especially when they've beef and take sides cuz and I I had to learn that a lot I had took me a long time to learn that because of how we come up in the Cod that they supposedly treat us in teach us in the street and [ __ ] like that but sometimes that's not the smallest thing that we can do and then uh push a t did you ever beef with him nah that was some [ __ ] that we was on record um he did some [ __ ] I did some [ __ ] you dig that was it I never followed that I didn't even know did you know there's a pusher T me I ain't got no just know I don't know I know you're from I know you're from Africa and [ __ ] like that but people don't play with me yeah for real and I don't I don't play with people this ain't no playground you heard this is the street it's two ways don't get caught up in a yellow line it's going to be hard to cross bro yeah you heard no I don't trust me I'm from Africa but I saw what happened at the airport so that [ __ ] escalated yeah [ __ ] that was self-defense man God yo bro it looked like that guy was just messing with you bro I wish that could have never happened cuz I was trying to avoid that by all cause but [ __ ] happened sometime man you dig and definitely not not going to allow anybody do anything to me at all bro when I saw that video right like I don't know I just met you today right but I saw when you lifted that guy from the escalator threw him down he literally just went on survival mode bro like it's like there was a button that you switched on and you just like I don't [ __ ] care but yeah yeah no I mean no that's a button that I choose not to push you heard yeah exactly like you can go there quickly I choose to show restraint for a lot of reasons in my life and sometimes it's hard to you dig but where I'm at in life right now I choose positivity or all the other things that come out my way because I know how it is to be negative I was once that negative person that was very aggressive and ready to do something to to you over the minimal alistic of things and [ __ ] like that so I'm blessed to be here to try to be able to show restraint and so so the guy so the guy at the airport you guys on the same plane yeah we on the same plane so you don't have a private jet no I don't have a private jet I'm not a rich man come on Jimmy you made so much money over the years but anyway so you're in the plane what's he what's this guy saying to you like um I don't know man just [ __ ] happens I know just the started from the plane just know that what you see happen on so it starts on the plane you restrain yourself you're like all right cool my dog say whatever you want to say yeah when he gets to the airport I mean the escalator that's when I think he starts hitting you or something right yeah something like that he tried to do something like that and that's what we see man but like I said this is not something that I want to glorify it's not you think he knows who you are um if if he didn't he know now no I'm I'm sorry see sorry cuz some people just provoke I believe he was he was trolling a little bit and things like that which is cool you I mean I'm if if you in New York not time 10 you do know who I am so you know I believe it was a bit of that but God bless man hopefully that they all right hopefully the old man um cool you dig like are you spiritual cuz you mentioned God a lot man yeah I'm very spiritual very spiritual very spiritual I've been my whole family is spiritual and what does that mean in an American sense cuz um us as African for me it means a lot of different things um I was told what the church was as a young age as they drag you to church every Sunday your grandmother your moms and your family and things like that and you really don't understand what that is from that young but as you get older and you go through certain things and you make it through certain things you understand that there is a God and everybody has a relationship with their God different and sometimes going to church doesn't mean that you love your God any less or he loves you any less you dig and you say spiritual I'm very spiritual I say my prayers as much as I can sometime two three four times in a day you dig man doesn't take away from what I do and who I am because I'm still in the line for everything else everybody is in but I know every day that I'm able to wake up and every day I'm able to make a dollar and every day I'm able to keep living the life that I am I should be thankful you heard cuz that's not just me that's a higher vibration that's definitely a God you dig and I'm well aware that I've escaped many things in life that Lord knows I should not be here but then again I should be here cuz he put here for a reason he gives his toughest battles to his strongest people what the Bible say you heard and I've made it through some very tough battles which are minimal to some of the people that I had next to me in their battles you know what I mean so it's like we all got to figure it out Jim Jones thank you so much man and thanks to God for bringing you here man definitely I appreciate for making time for us bro thank you man we appreciate you tired when you got you I appreciate the fact that you could even make it man got any last question yeah man bro you said you've gone through some tough battles and you mentioned how you lost your dad at like 26 but also that you you pretty much raised yourself from the age of 15 you know from that relationship or lack of it like has it affected how you father your children 100% this made me the best father I could be but me my relationship with my father was always a great one even though he wasn't there because every day he wasn't I love them even more I wasn't one of them kids that was bitter you dig I understand that everybody went through something and at that age what he was going through there was a lot of drug addiction and I knew that from a very young age I understood what drugs was and how they were tearing up my family I never held that against my father and I was just blessed able to get back with him before he passed away so he could see that his son was making something out of himself at that time I was already signed to her uh we think we just got the Rockefeller deal so it was a very big deal for me to be able to get back with my father to show him that me somebody that you should be proud of and I know him looking down right now got be like damn I did that so you know and that's how I feel but then in turn TR here my son I don't you know I mean like I just you know mean I pride myself on making sure that I I turned my son into somebody that was way better than I could ever be you oh man yeah that's my guy shout out to you man is your son still wearing Crocs to you br he's a Croc guy you heard yeah Crocs for Life bro Crocs for Life jumping out the beam with a fresh paer Crocs on I don't want to stand him Jimmy before you go your top five rappers all time my top five rappers of all you got to give us your top five bro yeah Tupac definitely Jay-Z Drake um Drake he not like us by default of course um rock cam no Eminem No No whoa not even big you from NY and not to take nothing away from him he's extremely nice it's retardedly nice when it comes to rap but I listen to artists that kind of you know I mean do something for the life that I live and kind of what I've been through and most of these artist or artist that I'm talking about people that you know what I mean like [ __ ] better stop hating on my boy Drake all of a sudden all this Drake land I get it I get it you ain't like us let's not do that let's not forget the 15 years he been spanking [ __ ] around this [ __ ] all all all over this [ __ ] all the alley he been giving most of these artists that are now seeming to be turning on them let's you know let's not some of them gave him their best hits let's not forget the big picture here and [ __ ] like but what the hip-hop culture and this game is built on competition so I yeah but what is he with it you heard you better put your best foot forward but what has Drake given back to the culture oh that you so love here we go um what is he giving back to the culture I seen him take a lot of people on tour and turn them even richer than they already was I I seen him give a lot of people hits that they would have never had if he wouldn't have got on a record things for the culture that wouldn't have happened in turn records that we would have never knew about him to record that the culture love and things like that I mean he's not from here Canada from the hood I don't believe he owes America too much but the monster that give back to where he's from maybe we should ask about what has he done in Canada giving back to his community as opposed to what he giving back to the culture of the United States when this is not where he's from and I think that's the Divide right there now if we talk about what he's done in Canada and if it's not up to par then maybe we can talk about oh you dig but that's I think that's for the people of Canada you dig like yeah cuz but it's the people of America in the hood who made him of course you heard about but that he didn't grw up in America he didn't grew up here you heard so if you was an artist from Africa yeah like boy yeah do you think bnab boy has responsibility what do Niger of United stes n I'm taking it back home bro super duper big yes but that's what people then will call a culture vulture cuz you come into a space you know do what the people of that space do benefit from them is is is you understand what we doing like it's bro it's not because he's not take so he's not taking benab boy is Nigerian it's a Nigerian culture that is now popular in America so Drake took an American culture and enriched himself but what he's saying is that he doesn't owe anything to America cuz he's not from yet right okay right yeah I mean [ __ ] he's got no obligation Fair argument he got no obligation Fair argument yeah like he lived if he lived like I don't I don't that's how I see it you heard like that's how I see it you dig but all these [ __ ] we talking about are filthy filthy filthy rich off the opinions of men you heard what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never but what I'm just trying to tell you is how this game is played yeah you heard yeah geez man the more we talk the more they get paid the loser still gets paid too if there is a loser I don't think there's a loser when they all getting Millions off of this [ __ ] I don't think I mean like and I understand end all be all in the whole circle of it but I'm I've been in this [ __ ] for so long I'm miss you can see the politics of really get you to understand of what's really going on and [ __ ] like that this [ __ ] don't pay me a dollar to talk about it yeah hey man how tight you with Joe Bon he calls us those African guys with numbers oh yeah yeah yeah Jo this my guy buts what's up man he cool yeah he's an instigator definely know how to get under people's skin yeah I've known Joan for so long [ __ ] like that um I'm proud of him put himself in his position a whole new Lane to make a shitload of money um where it stem from the culture this what I'm talking about all the ancillary things that you need to get going on if are a artist of some type of success you got to use that to get where you want look at Joe used his startom and rap no matter what it was to able to finesse a whole new Lane of podcasting that true he's pretty big in damn near one of the forefathers of it from our culture right y'all started before him or after him we started after him but now we have more numbers than him hey doesn't matter no numbers do matter I mean no J and get num I'm cool with that but you won't be never be the considered the forefather of this whole no no no no no no no you dig 100% yeah it's Jo Joan numbers is cool I'm cool with that you get paid and I know what's a race you might be number one you heard yeah yeah but you still never be the forefather always going to have that under him like I've created this Lane for your how I feel about Ling hip hop yeah of course I got that under my belt that's mine y can never say that was yours at all yeah okay how much money you made off of it and [ __ ] like that at the end of the day you it's mine you heard Still My still mine so we always ask anybody any guest that we get on the show in closing what do you want to be remembered as man when it's all said and done I want I want to be remembered I want I want them to know that I gave more than I took because I was able to take a lot in my time amen just like that sh hey man I wish you put me on love and& hip-hop bro they got the African love of Hip Hop they got Jamaican love of Hip Hop they got they got any type of Love of Hip Hop we need the South African love of Hip Hop thanks Jim man shout out thank you bro I appreciate you man thank you we appreciate podcast and chill we out of here man boom peace welcome to Black excellenc do not fear for if you do just sip on some Grand and if you still do ask ourselves what would M [Music] do when they ask you do not fear for if you do just say an TV this is the the medicine of censorship this is the pill which one is that one podcast and chill	graduated high school I didn't get to go to college they went to college they got kicked out they got kicked out they come moved in with me from that that was a uh foundation for them to D into the music you've been in the game for like 20 30 odd years right been in the game for since 1997 how would you describe the different eras of like um hip-hop right especially now cuz um obviously we all know about the Kendrick Lamar song they're not like us but I didn't know how big it was until I landed in in in America and it's like it's like a movement the video yeah it's like huge it's massive bro yeah it's a big record Kendrick did that shout out to Kendrick shout out to my boy Drake but what do you think about like the evolution of hip-hop in all the different areas you've been a part of what do you mean what do I think about it it's a great thing to be a part of something that um you could only dream of everybody doesn't get a chance to be in this game um I've been fortunate enough to be here for so many genres and errors and seen so many people come and go I've watched the smallest artist to the biggest artist who you thow will be here forever and going um I got stories for days I can tell you about um how	6	4	8	graduated high school I didn't get to go to college they went to college they got kicked out they got kicked out they come moved in with me from that that was a uh foundation for them to D into the music you've been in the game for like 20 30 odd years right been in the game for since 1997 how would you describe the different eras of like um hip-hop right especially now cuz um obviously we all know about the Kendrick Lamar song they're not like us but I didn't know how big it was until I landed in in in America and it's like it's like a movement the video yeah it's like huge it's massive bro yeah it's a big record	what do you mean what do I think about it it's a great thing to be a part of something that um you could only dream of everybody doesn't get a chance to be in this game um I've been fortunate enough to be here for so many genres and errors and seen so many people come and go I've watched the smallest artist to the biggest artist who you thow will be here forever and going um I got stories for days I can tell you about um how	3,5,6	7,4,8	3	5	6	7	4	8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr730VmL-lk	4,054	rr730VmL-lk	2024-06-27 00:00:00	like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano no well Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he showed me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah just understand everybody going there my guy I understand the hate exactly what you're saying yeah bro what's his name I don't it's fine you remember those some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I ain't scared of nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that the dentist yeah dentist got me there what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never [Music] [Music] yo Jimmy you do not look like you want to be here bro like someone forced you to be it's like you have to do that par they're the biggest podcast in Africa you have to be there I never look like I want to be nowhere man you got to part of me but congratulations to yall having the biggest podcast in Africa that that that's very big Africa being one of the biggest continents in the world a lot of people over there shut up man why you so tired bro crazy weekend I've been working all weekend shows different states traveling Planes Trains automobiles you know how I be a little bit too much partying yeah road kill it's tough but what's up how y'all feeling I'm good bro I literally saw um I saw your video uh yesterday for your new single the one you shot in Miami two turn temp yeah yeah how you feel about it bro that [ __ ] is lit man looks like our Vibe bro cuz we've been to Miami myself and and my partner but we never like experienced the Miami night life we were playing in Florida yeah we're DJing in Florida but two South Africans like the diaspora then West Palm Beach as well yeah DJ also yeah like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano what it's a genre it's called a piano no no cuz I'm a piano even you heard like you saw he did the whole Keys thing it has nothing to do with the piano that's where it started but has nothing to do with it these days when when I met charlot man he said the exact same thing he's like oh so you're a podcaster I'm like yeah and then you DJs I'm like no I play I'm a Pian like you're a Pianist man you one talented [ __ ] n it's a genre of music man what kind of genre is that like it's like slowed down house music with a lot of s that African influence that's the only way I can describe it so it's a it's a mix of a marriage house yeah a marriage of house music which originated here at Chicago and stuff and then we slowed it down created a sub genre called guo where guys were sort of rapping but very minimalist raps called guo then the kids were born like in the 2000s late '90s then created a whole meshup of those two genres and it's called Piano cuz a a lot of Americans think it's um afro beats it's not afro beats yeah a lot of the hence I avoided saying afro beats cuz AFR beats is from Nigeria and amap piano is far from afro beat afro beat borrows from am piano now where is amap piano originated from South Africa from the hoods from the Cassis yeah but when I when I was looking at your video bro uh the only thing in my mind was like bro what's a night like out with Jim Jones CU that [ __ ] look lit there [ __ ] everywhere bro um please please describe a night out in Miami with Jim so let's say we going to Miami right now I mean some nice are better than others but been doing it so long it's kind of like the the bare minimum for us to do in Miami just having fun but it still work at the same time like every every I'm I'm not just going out partying for no reason ni like that was we knew what we was kind of getting into we wanted to film a video so we knew we was going to ramp it up a bit take it to the to the highest form going crazy as we could but that actually happened to fall on a big weekend um and one of my dudes was celebrating so everything kind of happened for a reason but yeah Miami could take you for take you for a few a few trips man like okay so so so me and you we get in the car right I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm in Miami I hate you cuz you got a house there you stay there right yeah I got I got I got cribs there so I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm by the strip you know that Miami strip right yeah yeah yeah I mean see that's the thing about Miami when you come to visit Miami that's where people are know at like the strip and things like that I guess stand by Collins and ocean driveing all that people that live there don't really do the strip like that like you just you dig people congregate usually at night time and all the spots that usually go on down there um okay so we got security obviously you got to roll around with security right um yeah I mean that' be the safest thing for me to do so we get out the cut with security when you get to the bouncers are they letting us in cuz it's Jim Jones or are they checking our IDs cuz they've been checking our IDs just to buy beer here bro Che ID everywhere yeah everywhere yeah no I I don't think I produced my ID in since I was a teenager at clubs but yeah you won't need your ID when you with me so we walking in right yeah we going to get in oh do we have a section do we they going to give us a section VIP yeah they going to give us a section we going to get some bottles and let the night ensue got this thing called Power Hour you go to the club maybe like 2:45 to 3:45 in and out no sweat so what's the what's the purpose of that exercise the Power Hour yeah like why would you be in the cloud for an hour why would I be in a club for 4 hours it's Fu I mean I've been part I've been partying since I've been 14 I've been making money to party since I've been 18 I'm kind of burnt out so at this point I try to wait till the club is at the most popping or lest moment which is usually that hour right there and I get to enjoy everything that happened tonight and leave out of there and not be all burnt out what what does your wife say bro cuz you're married man you're surrounded by all these girls like you know I mean I'm going to worry about the women yeah is minimal to the money worry about the money more than anything so so a woman doesn't like give you grief when you come home I yeah you get you get grief all the time if you in a relationship no matter what you do if you had a job on Wall Street you get home you're going to get grief no around it you heard yeah there's women everywhere unless you work in the LGBT Club then you know I mean even there you still going to go home and get like it's no way around it you're going to get you know I mean like yeah so you've never had like been home and you had to explain like yo no man I was just doing music video it's just work like I don't know that good you going to explain yourself in every relationship and things like that I got a good woman at home who understands a job I have and things like that so for the most part but for the most part I'm a very responsible respectable person when when I'm in the streets and when I do have to interact with females and things like that yeah anyway H ladies and gentlemen welcome to another special edition of podcasting chill so CU yeah I am here we're chilling with the [ __ ] Legend Kings of Harlem please make some noise for Jim Jones Jim I gotta say bro I gotta say bro I'm going to be honest with you when I find that your name was GMO geloo gelo I'm like I'm like Jim Jones losing some G points here man what the [ __ ] is that I'm Puerto Rican and a rubian my pops is Puerto Rican the word gelo means William in English is a Spanish Spanish name cuz you know what I was thinking I was thinking that guy who does the show late night you know the short guy who does like the interviews with um this late night comedian man what are the late night shows oh man not uh bad with these oh gosh the late night guy bro uhri or something not Corin O'Brien no not Trevor Noah the other American guy man like uh old new no he's like jimm Kimel Jimmy Kimel jimy he's got that he's got that short guy his name is julo oh I don't I don't I don't got got me messed up I don't even really watch TV like that bro okay I'll be out chasing the money I ain't even got time to do that and if and if I do got some time I'm trying to get a little bit of rest or I'm thinking about money [ __ ] is crucial out here right now you better get to your dollar a lot of [ __ ] about to happen and if you ain't got no coins boy you going to be [ __ ] up you ever been to uh Puerto Rico yeah I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times yeah but business not for the Heritage part of it so like you don't know where like your your your parents were at Familiar of the place where my father's from but I never really got to do the whole go to give with my family understand the roots understand you know I mean like I didn't get to get to that part of it but I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times you find like that's important like to know you it's definitely important I had this um I did an interview not too long ago about um how important the roots are and get to know where my family from know I mean so we'll start to do that pretty soon so so so your dad you know you know your dad right yeah he's passed away oh okay God bless rest in peace what happened to him he passed away yeah like was it um medical thing or yeah natural causes oh damn like when you young or um maybe when I was uh 23 24 oh damn bro SED to hear that man maybe 26 right before my son passed right before my God bless right before my son Bor bro but you like 47 right now I look good for 47y old man no homo you know what I mean thank you very much like what was what's keeping you looking so good is it the yoga yeah a lot of yoga a lot of Pilates I stay in shape um I'm very uh very big on Fitness um work out like five six times a week um it's one of the best ways to stay young and have better chances of living a long life is that why you do it or maybe there's other purpose like you know a lot of people are in gym for their mental health I mean it's very it's very it's very therapeutic I will say that but my main goal is to look good of course but to give me better chances of living forever bro so how you got into rap um I don't know correct me if I'm wrong right but you used to skip church and go to the train station to to rap like no I never skipped Church to go on the train station and rap I skipped Church to go to the train station and go play video games and run the streets and do everything a bad little kid did from the streets of hollow when we was like S8 and n and things like that I don't know if you know about anything about the subway system in New York but that's the pathway system that get you to all five burrows and we definitely was on the subway which maybe we shouldn't have been but we was a little uh loose um for me rapping actually rapping didn't start later on in life to actually uh C and um they I got a deal and things like that and that was the first time me myself really thought about actually raing cuz I'll be honest with you like um dipet I don't really know much about dipet however I know about you guys individually like Cameron old boy like one of my favorite songs uh jul sna had hear that that was Cameron and Jules and jwes he both was on he both old boy and heon yeah why don't you jump on those tracks man those tracks are massive they was already done I was there for the making of both of them incredible tracks yeah and then how did dipit start start like how did you guys start the whole movement um organically kiss him Harem gr up together um talented kids Cam and Mason BL sh was they already was doing music um Everybody gradu graduated high school I didn't get to go to college they went to college they got kicked out they got kicked out they come moved in with me from that that was a uh foundation for them to D into the music you've been in the game for like 20 30 odd years right been in the game for since 1997 how would you describe the different eras of like um hip-hop right especially now cuz um obviously we all know about the Kendrick Lamar song they're not like us but I didn't know how big it was until I landed in in in America and it's like it's like a movement the video yeah it's like huge it's massive bro yeah it's a big record Kendrick did that shout out to Kendrick shout out to my boy Drake but what do you think about like the evolution of hip-hop in all the different areas you've been a part of what do you mean what do I think about it it's a great thing to be a part of something that um you could only dream of everybody doesn't get a chance to be in this game um I've been fortunate enough to be here for so many genres and errors and seen so many people come and go I've watched the smallest artist to the biggest artist who you thow will be here forever and going um I got stories for days I can tell you about um how I feel about it I feel great I feel blessed you know what I mean I feel lucky this [ __ ] don't it's not promised and for me to still be here is definitely a blessing so in the 90s what was the vibe like man like like what in the 90s as far as what in hip-hop yeah it was it was different um 90s was a great era um one of my favorite errors um that was the era we first first came outside um started to get out deal uh very aggressive era uh no social media um cell phones were just being born um everything that you seen you was something that you could grab on to um artists had to go to the towns we couldn't just get on your phone and music you had to go get you couldn't just have access to it so it was a it was it it was a hunt um you had to touch the Tails kiss babies do radio everything like it was just a different ER but who was around like during that time when you who was around like Tupac was did you like meet Tupac Tupac I didn't get to meet Tupac um Tupac passed away what 95 was that yeah right in big in '97 um no I got to see Tupac do a few times in Harlem um that was dope but um not Tupac passed away before we got to get in the record game but I've seen a lot of a lot of artists in my time from a young age to old age we were partying in clubs as teenagers before we even got a record deal and things like that like we were in clubs since high school and [ __ ] like that so any interactions with Big L he was from Harlem right yeah shouts to Big Al Big Al was definitely from Harlem um 139th NFL Big L um I was one of the Cam's uh close friends um actually put cam on a dope record that started to give uh Cam and bloodshed and and her mcgree her was already popping too but guy gave them some notice when it came to R so when you come out like who's who's popping at that time is it git is it mop D it's way before G when we came out I was like Eminem just dropped oh [ __ ] this is Slim Shady not M like Slim Shady I I remember that that was like cam had dropped and Eminem had dropped DMX had dropped Nori had dropped um Big Pun had dropped lud Chris Luda had just started coming out um Nelly Nelly down down baby yeah shouts to coola love um yeah that type of error shouts to shouts to Fat Joe shouts to Buster they was already in it uh Nas was already in it Jay start going crazy that's when he just started taking over with the 1 million 2 million 3 million 4 um yeah very competitive very edgy um lot of the big dogs um had real roots in the streets um especially in the streets of New York so that put that put a real Mystique on everything when it came to the music um all the events with topnotch um it just was a different feel man it was a heavy heavy dope boy era um this was before the drug dealers wanted to be Rappers that's when the rappers wanted to be drug dealers you know what I mean and and that Arrow was was a very dope high impact trenel and Russian it was a was a great error bro I saw an interview you did correct me if I'm wrong I might be paraphrasing but you mentioned a place called the tunnel or something where everybody would be and you guys were [ __ ] [ __ ] in the bathrooms please please describe that manest cuz a place like that couldn't exist right now bro with all this woke [ __ ] I mean yeah and the cancel cult I would say it was probably the greatest Club The Hip hopers have seen and it was during the 90s era it was the Golden Era um in New York they got you had stories about like Studio 54 in that era when everybody used all the biggest of big used to go to Studio 54 well the tunnel was what Studio 54 was to that era to our era and it didn't make so many people and nationalities and genres and just everybody was like a big pumbo all for the sake of the culture you had some of the flyest models to some of the biggest drug dealers biggest gang bangers I mean every former elicit street life you could think of was in the spot along with the biggest artists and rappers and actors and models that you could find into all athletes um it would definitely like that um and was this like per invite or just like anybody could Rock up there nah you couldn't just rock up there for this is '90s entry was like $100 first of all $100 for a club that was the first time we ever heard of it and that was a lot of money back then especially we probably started in '94 going there teenager so $100 was sto a lot of money in New York at the time sneakers wasn't even costing $100 um to get in the club you definitely had to be connected to know somebody or you had to wait on a long line that usually was a block long um they had like an Express line you could pay $100 to get on Express line that'll get you to the door quicker and then you pay your entry fee um streets was blocked off you was a big dog you was able to bring your cars down there I was able to bring like four five of them if I wanted to um yeah the club was just it was different man pull up to the door security they taking people's shoes off they searching your jacket twisting people inside out like they about to go on the Rikers Island I got to I gave security High files I never took my shoes off and not since high school I when we used go in high school we used to get our shoes taken off and things like that make you feel like you going to the cental bookings and [ __ ] like that so what gave you that clout that allowed you to bring four cars in when nobody or you had to be a big dog to bring four cars in when you could just give them a high five instead of removing your shoes and you're young by then like what gives you that CL I was a big dog since a small pup bro J yeah man what gave you those you know credentials at such a young age to suppos all these people cuz Dr Tre was there yeah you putting in four cars not removing shoes I was a good Lord Biden citizen everybody love Jim Jones even even the girls like would you just rock up they say let's go to the bathroom that's it yeah now that well yeah there was a lot of that going on they had a uh the layout was different first of all the club was a block long a whole city block um wow there was like three other four other clubs within the club or spots that look like clubs um the main floor was humongously big the DJ was like a a lifeguard Tower in the middle of the club um you go upstairs they had a VR big V PE upstairs and then go through a door it open up to the bathroom the bathroom was like a unisex Club [ __ ] had a big ass bar in the middle of the bathroom uh bunch of stalls lined up um that [ __ ] was like a hotel inside Lions cocaine everything yeah they was going down a lot of sex was going down there a lot of a lot of drugs was going down in there um yeah the tunnel was definitely uh a landmark to New York City when it comes to the clubs I I definitely um I always think about that club um it did a lot for me in my life um it gave me a lot of imagination when it came to to the culture and the things I was seeing from a young age as to where I want to be and the direction I want to go in yeah we was going there since high school so when you seeing people like Mike Tyson and all these people coming in big cheer on and just having their way as a kid go out got to go to school the next morning you you in school thinking about that [ __ ] like w man this school [ __ ] [ __ ] this school [ __ ] I need some money and I need to go to the tunnel that's all I want to [ __ ] do that's wild man now can you imagine because we in sa right we're looking at all the videos that you guys are pulling out there like we're looking at this lifestyle and then you F Track to 2024 right M and the P didy thing breaks out right I mean i' rather not even to get into that yeah just don't I rather the do I don't you know I mean like it's not it's not my business oh I mean like this you heard God bless it's too much n yeah and it's not me to have an opinion on certain things cuz I ain't perfect I've been through my own [ __ ] in life and I see a lot of people that have even this doing too much just know that I ain't perfect so I choose not to talk on certain [ __ ] that you know what I mean a lot of other people people been talking about I let them keep doing the talk and I got other [ __ ] to work on I'm trying to work on me being a better person yeah I respect I respect that man but were ever part of any gang or like you sounding like the F never hey we don't the F in South Africa man only PS I'm just playing with you yeah I've been affiliated with the bloods in New York City um ENT Tre um yeah so crazy have you ever been to sa like have you ever been to Africa or um I've been to Africa where did you go uh gaban gille damn G to perform there um I went to perform there but uh got some great friends there they actually had ran the country at the time this is before the big yeah yeah overtaking and stuff like that but I had a ball out there I got to go to an island called Pony um that was a dope experience as they took me to the jungles I got to see some of the indigenous people um it was like a a real um life Awakening like and I got to see how also the rich people live out there also like I got to see both sides like that you know what I mean it was it was a great experience I out there for like a week um I haven't been back since but yeah it was dope you never been to South Africa never been to South Africa bro so the reason why I asked that is because like yo bro like American culture has infiltrated South Africa like you can't believe like you know we got people worshiping you guys you know Jim Jones rappers and everything you so we've got rappers who rap just like you and youd say they're like Bloods and Crips but they've never they've never left sa you know cuz that's how influential uh the culture is right but from you when you see or hear that like what do you guys think like do you think is like some [ __ ] like or like leave don't don't follow the gang life you know what I mean oh as far as that is concerned um there's two sides to that this what you do as a gang member that turns it into something that becomes a crime or whatever that end but the Brotherhood part of it is what the most of us joined up for when we coming up in the hood and need that Brotherhood lean on somebody is that type of camaraderie that pretty much stood for and there's a lot of other great attributes that comes with affiliation or you becoming a part of a gang um it gets twisted up because we all come up in these urban communities and our back is against the wall we don't have no opportunities um it's very dormant uh we on top of each other so naturally testosterone testosterone wins in a lot of these situations where these kids find s in bad situations and for that I would tell people to kind of stay away from this type of life um I don't want to oppose my will we all going to experience what we going to experience but I can't tell you the consequences to this type of Lifestyle could be very dear you heard ethal a lot of people don't get to make it where I made it and Escape that lifestyle that could have put me away or could have put me in the dirt I mean so here as a Living testament to tell you that these consequences are terrible the odds on you making it out of that life in a positive manner are very slim I mean but if you are in that life and you taking it as a Brotherhood and try to uplift your brothers I know there's a lot of people around you that are doing a lot of [ __ ] that that that that that's very crazy you know what I mean if you're a part of that and you got the positive minder then you try to uplift your brother and instill some positivity within them because it's very cold out here so I've always been curious bro like so when that when you you you start getting immersed you know or Affiliated in the gang life how does that affect the conversation at home with your parents like your mom your dad and just the domestic you know Dynamics I a't grow my parents I was a grown man since I was like 15 I made my own money since I was like 16 my grandmother left me in high school man I was raising my Sisters by myself in the projects I hustle every I ever got in my life that's why music saved my life I was so grateful to be able to be next to cam and him getting a deal at such a very young age to be able to still be making money off that [ __ ] right now you were U anr for Warner uh music group yeah I was the director of anr for Warner Music Group um years ago uh shouts to Kevin L shouts to Leo Cohen for giving me the opportunity um great opportunity uh I excelled at it extremely very young with a lot of power but didn't understand what I had at hand um didn't have too many people in my corner that were telling me the things that I should have been doing with that type of position as opposed to some type of weird way be hating you know I mean so that's what happened but as you get older you learn you learn and you move on who did you discover while you were in that position uh I would tell you a story I I know I've helped try s uh they come to tra songs that you know today he's always in he's always in we know why no n but he was a young kid at the time and uh they were actually going to cut him from the label we had a big uh um it's like uh one of them uh some events they be doing not the talent shows the uh well was something like that all the artists had to come perform and then they pretty much didn't know that they was on a Cho and block at the time when I was an executive and and he was one of the artists that they were going to cut and I remember Kevin L specifically ask me yo what we should do with him I'm about to cut him I don't know what to do with him and when I heard him uh singing and I saw him perform I was like this is this is one artist you should keep and did that and now we all tra songs on so many dope ass records is it true you could have signed Drake yeah I had a chance to sign uh I had a chance to do business with Drake um through Allan grum blat um when I was doing business at cotch um it was a different era I didn't understand what Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he show me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah understand everybody going at my guy I understand the hate man the hate is so phenomenal it's just how this game go man this game is so tricky man these [ __ ] just like females in this game we ain't going to get into that man there's a lot of uh but wait wait wait so so with Drake like are you are you seeing him perform like try songs or like you just heard of the guy just a conversation Allan called me about signing a kid let me hear some of his music um and I was like the kid know how to rap but I don't know what to do with him his image is crazy and him couple years later heard him on a Wheezy mixtape going crazy I was like wow this kid is about to go wham inside of this business and he sure did and you're know trying to call Weezy like yo man I gotta get that kid or something n he was already signed a young money and jcole did you miss on jcole as well I could have signed J Cole bro jcole was in the studio with me every day and at that point jcole I he's he remind me of a knockoff Drake and not to say it like that but that's who he sounded like he came to my studio every day rapping to these Drake beats rapping like Drake Cadence like Drake he could rap his ass off yeah you heard yeah but it was already a drake out there he had the Caesar it was different like two lightskinn [ __ ] might not K when raing the same but you never know what you got in front of you man you dig and those are lessons I I've took with me to moving forward when I see artists and and I hate artists I always give them more than just hearing just just I got to I got to I gotta try to capture the whole picture I make sure I just don't you mean so I don't miss nothing else because I've missed a few people and I've helped a few people um gain a lot of success in in my time in this industry whether it been by me having a meeting with them or me having influence on them or you know I mean so you know and there's never like any animosity like Jake Cole or Drake never came up to be like yo you could have signed me look at me now bro I mean me and Drake is cool as [ __ ] um I see J Cole I don't think he I mean I don't think that's no he some [ __ ] he might want to keep to himself not to be like that sh the co he not that type of artist he's not a you I mean yeah you did I look I look at as we can see I want to mention an artist who like I'm really fond of like I think this guy's [ __ ] amazing musically talented everything that he touched like turned to Gold who's that uh kid k bro K Cy yeah yeah did you help him with his career yeah I birth K Cy wow J me how so bro bir them nobody would have know who K Cy was at all if I a jump on this remix record but it wasn't even remix he wasn't even a nobody like I tell a story all the time I had a inter used to work for me said he got some dudes that do videos they would like to do a video for me told them come let me see they work they show me their videos the first video they showed me was of the kid Cy record he's on the top of a roof some simple video the record sound more wavy than the opportunity for them to do a video I'm like well if you'll get me the beat to this record I Remix this record and then y'all can shoot the video to that record wow and that's what they did and then um the radio station ripped the record off of YouTube and start playing it at Hot 97 and K Cy was born bro why do you think especially about kid Cy cuz from him when I listen to music right it wasn't really no no other kid Cy record besides the one that I was on yeah man he's not in they don't play his records where I be at at all not to be funny wow bro and we listen to him like all that day and night you know remember only record I know yeah it's the only record I know unless it's like a pop record that everybody know and I and I'm even not paying attention to it but he don't his records don't get played nowhere that i' be at not like that unless I go into a different farm and that's the type of music they playing in one of these funny clubs that play fist pump music and pop music he's not into like you dig like they don't play his music in the clubs I'll be at maybe in Vegas and [ __ ] like that but that's not like they not pumping this [ __ ] in live they not pumping this [ __ ] in Atlanta they not pumping this [ __ ] down the Stafford room or you know what I mean like they I'm not saying nothing like that but I don't hear it in the strip clubs I don't hear like you know what I mean so but he's a very successful person with some of the greats like Kanye to put him in a position to win and [ __ ] like that and I think he's way more better as an actor than he is a musician and that's just my POS that's just my opinion he did I seen him in the movie uh about the race car [ __ ] where he was F the playe like he got a lot of Charisma and [ __ ] like that on on camera for what I could see and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean bro I mean for you as Jim Jones to to see these kids you're introduced to them by an intern and then to hop onto that song it's something selfless you know to just give these unknown kids an opportunity of sharing a song with you where do you think that selflessness comes from how was that unknown kid I'm still an unknown kid anytime I get an opportunity that's an opportunity I should be able to give to somebody else bro the fact that you could even come to our podcast shout out man yeah man you don't even know us exactly what you're saying yeah know us what's his name I don't it's fine you know remember those kids who who did the video for him anyway you know remember I remember like that kids that got the biggest African podcast I'm definitely going to know like them is my guys right family right there appreciate I really mean that that sincerely and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean I I bump in too many people in my life and been across too many people in my journey to actually remember everybody's name but the face and the cause and I mean BR I want to understand right the first time you came up with the concept For Love and Hip Hop where were you what was happening that um that was something like uh me and Christy she had opportunity to do uh her own reality show um and actually fell through and that kind of she was kind of she wanted to do that I can see she was eager about doing that when it fell through kind you know I mean [ __ ] with her mood and [ __ ] like that so so so so so the initial concept what was it was just Chrissy just showing like what's life the initial concept was about she had her own thing going on about a group of women that was supposed to do a reality show had nothing to do with me yeah that [ __ ] fell through she lost that opportunity to end up not going people have been begging me to do reality TV for past couple years at the time and I and you reality TV gold man I refused to do it yeah and then when that happened I was like all right I got I'll do this for you and we'll make it about you and females that have to that are involved with artist such as myself and show what the relationship side is when you're dealing with a high-profile artist and you know what I mean how so that's how that started bro and that thing became a monster super super monster like it's still big till this day bro 100% so do you have like uh ownership in that we we were link a all that you know at that time when maybe the second season we just in a position where we refuse to compromise our dignity for anyone or any dollar and sometimes it be like that you know what I mean um but ain't no stress off my back T my hat to him you no but but but we got to talk about that because you see like this podcast um it's blackowned right it's just me and a couple of other people that are involved in the podcast right and we're always striving for ownership so a lot of um Brands and investors have come to try to buy the podcast and we say know cuz like we believe in ownership and telling the story the way we want to tell it right so what went wrong in that because as a hustler I believe like that's your also end goal MH um it wasn't something that I was just a lot of different layers and [ __ ] like that and I was too worried about doing other things and we had the opportunity to gain all ownership 50% of the whole TV show and all that but it still wasn't worth GE bro that's insane you just let go like that yeah bro it's your brain child bro there is no Love and& Hip Hop without you bro I still got a brain you heard yeah those are for people that don't have a brain that lack creativity people that steal things from you lack what you don't have remember that yeah whether it's money whether it's creativity whatever it is they lack what you don't have ultimately they steal from you you heard I mean we didn't even know C beef if it wasn't for Love and& Hip Hop right yeah yeah yeah definitely yeah bro you gave birth to so many many people man like VI their careers that's the god in me that's why I'm always going to be good yeah she man so any other shows that you're working on like in the pipeline that you want to do I was telling you I working on um a late night show a late night um a late night variety show live in studio audience hopefully we'll be filming in about 40 to 60 days um beautiful concept I do I do believe people going enjoy the show um like I was saying I can't do um a podcast is too personal for me and [ __ ] like that and me watching these podcasts um dealing with these artists me myself don't have the temperament for it you know what I mean um I [ __ ] I T my hat to y'all to have to deal with artists such as myself cuz you never know what type of mood they going to come in you know what I me some of these artists have a air to them where they feel like they better than most and they would never sit and have tea with the with the maintenance guy you heard me myself me going to maintenance guy going to smoke blunts before I get on stage [Music] I live my life and and and currently uh before we let you go man what do you think about the state of hip-hop cuz like statistically numbers wise it's not looking good man e beats has played all over New York now there's now the pianos this is this is what they want you to do this is how to get us to go against each other it's all under the same culture umbrella it's afro music ref I'm a piano I'm a piano explain that what do you mean by that bro yeah R&B what do you mean by that ultimately it's all from under the same origin and creativity of the same person from the same colors is all our thing n but let's be honest Jimmy hip-hop hasn't involved bro when I was listening to Eminem what do you want mean what do you mean hip-hop hasn't evolved you guys are still rapping about the same stuff it don't you you missing the point of what hip-hop is yeah hip-hop has evolved to a point that you can be the music genres that you're told them about can be noticed you think that if there was a hip hop that I'm a piano would be noticed or afro Beach would be noticed think about that and not to take nothing away from y because you always have culture and yes that music might be big within the continent of Africa yeah right but to cross over to American Fame and commercialism you don't think that the hip-hop culture played a big part in that that's that that's a different argument now you want to have a different argument I'm telling you the semantics of where we going with this you dig like you talking about uh the the hip hop music is damn percentage that's how they want us to think when it's really not cuz we all uplifting each other you heard you think that the country music that's going on in the black people winning is not because of the hip-hop culture no no no I think no one is disputing that however so then when you say hip-hop numbers are down and damn for who no I'm talking about I know what you're talking about but damn for who tell me who it's down for because I'm still making the money I make yeah I do believe there's still a lot of artist that's making a shitload of money that they make I don't think it went down for them yeah you know what I mean but I understand what you're talking about they say the numbers and then rock and roll genre might be up like I don't really you heard like that's I'm into this business you heard and it's always up for us you heard cuz this is a business we make money out of nothing it's never a downside to this okay and and that's why I'm saying I think we're having two different conversations here cuz the conversation I'm having is I'm having I'm having right is that in as much as he's saying yeah the numbers are down because they orchestrated and whatever I get that right but also that's why I asked do you think Hip-hop has evolved cuz I grew up on hip-hop right and the same things um quote unquote you guys were rapping about in the '90s how can hipop how can hip hop evolved in the same thing that Africa been Africa been going on since the '90s aren't y going still going through the same thing we are huh we are so how could the music evolve when the music ref the time ah okay get you real stories what you want us to rap about [ __ ] that that we don't have ah we talk about [ __ ] we dream about all the time that's the good The Good Life the colorin the Ros we talk about but the truth is how the music going to change when our position hasn't changed when we still going through the same [ __ ] we've been going through okay and y'all being from Africa should know that more than we know that yeah that's facts that's fact go about that own Cod yeah yeah yeah yeah you know are bro that's a valid fact but how do you feel man like you've come from an era where you guys when what you you said in your raps I mean evolved as far as dition as far as what we rap about cuz we still stuck in the same place but as a business it has evolved to one of big time yeah yeah biggest big time money making machines you can attach yourself to this made some of the richest individuals whether you're the rapper the lawyer the executive like that's true you know what I mean the supply chain but then I think that's why you know when you get the likes of a wz coming out and Kendrick Lamar they stand out like a sore thumb because like they are rapping about but that's what music is about to stand out for those who that want to look like everybody they don't get nowhere why you think Dip set was so successful sucessful yeah because we stood out on purpose we don't want to look like or H or sound like no one else m we want yall to above all see us when we walk in the building and hear us when we get on that [ __ ] mic you heard why would you guys the diplomats I never like where did that come from the diplomats the name the diplomats yeah we diplomats oh ah okay that sounded cool no we diplomats we are Harlem diplomats and we take it as that you heard we go to the Embassy when we land in countries you heard all right okay okay okay I I sort of get that bro so in the business and how you still making money right now like from music just like how is it royalties damn you asking a lot of questions bro no I want to know bro I'm so I've got so many questions I want to ask you bro I'll tell you this music is supposed to be used so you can make as much ancillary dollars as you can because the music ain't promised everybody 15 minutes of fame ranges from a small 15 minutes of fame to a run like we having within that minute the 15 minutes the fame you better do a lot of other things to secure your bag because music is not going to be thing you be able to get paid off forever unless you're the DRS and the J that's not even 1% that's you know what I mean so you think about that so you better have some hustle you better learn how to you better have some business sense you better put your credit in order you better do a few things to secure you if you are artist [ __ ] leverage powerful penda yeah man how do you feel man when these kids these days wrap up about you know trying to act tough and rap about stuff they never done like you guys red about stuff you lived I mean I do believe a lot of these kids are going through a lot of [ __ ] that we went through and then a lot of the kids are talking about [ __ ] that they see but most of the kids are all growing up in the same community that all of that [ __ ] is going on so who tells them they don't have the right to talk about [ __ ] that they're not doing when that's still [ __ ] that they're seeing oh sure Ah that's powerful but the problem I have a problem when they rapping like they did it but they just R from somebody else's Vantage Point understand that but most of these artists that you've seen in the game some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I pretty firm in his in in his music that I'm a believer that he did some of that [ __ ] he can talk about just me I don't know you possibilities are possibilities but some things just seem correct you know mean I can't tell you for sure cuz it is music you know what I mean but some things seem correct [ __ ] man bro you got to come out to man you got to you know we haven't had a proper uh hip-hop concert in sa like since 50 N since you are come on back to the city does concerts man ah those are for old people empd the bigest artist in South Africa right now Hip-Hop Hip-Hop uh there's a guy called nastyc but nesty came here he doesn't know know you f poopa who's that nah F poopa Nigerian West African artist massive he used to pop not now for real still massive bigger than like ber boyo still it's different type of music oh stadiums is 50 60,000 people like what is this following this gu what's his name f poop F poop I don't know him bro he's from Nigeria yeah yeah yeah yeah Nigerian Prett pretty big yeah humongous bro how big was was 50 Cent bro like during his Reign man like how big was 50 Cent [ __ ] retardedly big it wasn't nothing bigger than him was Drake before Drake was dring he was oh [ __ ] he did it like it was like 50 was on a run that he never even touched the club bro like [ __ ] never seen him in the club he only did Arenas I never knew too many artist that just did that you dig like the [ __ ] was super massive every [ __ ] Rec he came out with was was going platinum and I'm just telling you the facts you heard and I always got to speak factual no matter how I feel about a person the [ __ ] was on top Super on top it was no way to knock him off his d i remember Jay-Z dropped the diss track on you did you guys resolve that beef I think you were not happy with him as the president of De jam oh man um we never really had a beef um we had some feuds back and forth through the situations that were going on over other people um and me being who I am I had to hold my ground um but to know that he actually talked about me in multiple of his records mean that I was pretty big in his eyes you dig true true cuz I didn't hear him talk about too many people in his career and if he did talk you talk about you on the record that meant something you know what I mean and I was then so for me that I I I took that like what it was like you dig like yeah J doesn't respond to take the time out to say my name you heard if I'm if I'm not that big of a deal to you you would never ever a am I am I right talk about a person you heard true it's it's a form of respect and ackowledge 100% am I right in saying a lot of [ __ ] are scared of Jay-Z bro cuz we interviewed Dam Ian I don't I don't know I'm not a lot of [ __ ] you heard I'm a man so I couldn't I I couldn't tell you that you heard I ain't scared to nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that that that dentist yeah the dentist got me there you heard you can walk in you could walk we about to fight right now you a dentist walk in you got it you got it like you got it bow down you got it I don't want no smoke let me get out of here M fact word Jimmy before you go man uh what beefs did you have so you had something beef with Jay-Z right no man I just told you we had some feuds stemming from that's beef bro stemming from other things that going on um my problem like it was all part of Us coming up in the game and things were happening we were signing a Rockefeller cam was sign a Rockefeller actually then we got opportunity to Diplomat records um the split between uh Jay and Dame came um artist took sides some took the J side some took the the Dame side which side were you on we was on the Dame side OB Dash yeah Dame Dash that's do you think Dame Dash is misunderstood bro huh you think Dame Dash is misunderstood um too smart for his own good I get that yeah if you had the opportunity again you sometimes being the smartest person in the room could be held against you especially when you want everybody to know that you're the smartest person in the room yeah yeah yeah and I get given a second chance would you still side with Dam never you wouldn't never whoa I never signed a d at all that was no no no like sided with him took his side oh give a second chance I wouldn't have sided with none of them I would we would haveed our [ __ ] business but you learned that with age yeah you heard we had no business butting into that because it wasn't a street beef and this wasn't some [ __ ] that had to do with us ultimately we were holding our [ __ ] down and [ __ ] like that but business-wise if we would if we knew what we knew now we would let them get into that they self y'all can handle that because we got records to put out and music to make and we got our own record label to run you dig and this my hinder what we got going on by us taking sides and that's why I tell people now even when people seeing all the Diplomat [ __ ] like y bro don't don't get in to taking sides with me and my bro because you never know how that might end up and if it end up to a point where we do figure out our situation then I'm looking at you funny now me and you got forever you heard you dig and there are plenty of people that did that and plenty people that didn't and plenty people that showed the same amount of love that he showed to me that it showed to cam when we were going through our imaginary situations and [ __ ] like that cuz it's all imaginary when you know you can figure figure it out now it's a saying that like don't just be in people's business when especially when they've beef and take sides cuz and I I had to learn that a lot I had took me a long time to learn that because of how we come up in the Cod that they supposedly treat us in teach us in the street and [ __ ] like that but sometimes that's not the smallest thing that we can do and then uh push a t did you ever beef with him nah that was some [ __ ] that we was on record um he did some [ __ ] I did some [ __ ] you dig that was it I never followed that I didn't even know did you know there's a pusher T me I ain't got no just know I don't know I know you're from I know you're from Africa and [ __ ] like that but people don't play with me yeah for real and I don't I don't play with people this ain't no playground you heard this is the street it's two ways don't get caught up in a yellow line it's going to be hard to cross bro yeah you heard no I don't trust me I'm from Africa but I saw what happened at the airport so that [ __ ] escalated yeah [ __ ] that was self-defense man God yo bro it looked like that guy was just messing with you bro I wish that could have never happened cuz I was trying to avoid that by all cause but [ __ ] happened sometime man you dig and definitely not not going to allow anybody do anything to me at all bro when I saw that video right like I don't know I just met you today right but I saw when you lifted that guy from the escalator threw him down he literally just went on survival mode bro like it's like there was a button that you switched on and you just like I don't [ __ ] care but yeah yeah no I mean no that's a button that I choose not to push you heard yeah exactly like you can go there quickly I choose to show restraint for a lot of reasons in my life and sometimes it's hard to you dig but where I'm at in life right now I choose positivity or all the other things that come out my way because I know how it is to be negative I was once that negative person that was very aggressive and ready to do something to to you over the minimal alistic of things and [ __ ] like that so I'm blessed to be here to try to be able to show restraint and so so the guy so the guy at the airport you guys on the same plane yeah we on the same plane so you don't have a private jet no I don't have a private jet I'm not a rich man come on Jimmy you made so much money over the years but anyway so you're in the plane what's he what's this guy saying to you like um I don't know man just [ __ ] happens I know just the started from the plane just know that what you see happen on so it starts on the plane you restrain yourself you're like all right cool my dog say whatever you want to say yeah when he gets to the airport I mean the escalator that's when I think he starts hitting you or something right yeah something like that he tried to do something like that and that's what we see man but like I said this is not something that I want to glorify it's not you think he knows who you are um if if he didn't he know now no I'm I'm sorry see sorry cuz some people just provoke I believe he was he was trolling a little bit and things like that which is cool you I mean I'm if if you in New York not time 10 you do know who I am so you know I believe it was a bit of that but God bless man hopefully that they all right hopefully the old man um cool you dig like are you spiritual cuz you mentioned God a lot man yeah I'm very spiritual very spiritual very spiritual I've been my whole family is spiritual and what does that mean in an American sense cuz um us as African for me it means a lot of different things um I was told what the church was as a young age as they drag you to church every Sunday your grandmother your moms and your family and things like that and you really don't understand what that is from that young but as you get older and you go through certain things and you make it through certain things you understand that there is a God and everybody has a relationship with their God different and sometimes going to church doesn't mean that you love your God any less or he loves you any less you dig and you say spiritual I'm very spiritual I say my prayers as much as I can sometime two three four times in a day you dig man doesn't take away from what I do and who I am because I'm still in the line for everything else everybody is in but I know every day that I'm able to wake up and every day I'm able to make a dollar and every day I'm able to keep living the life that I am I should be thankful you heard cuz that's not just me that's a higher vibration that's definitely a God you dig and I'm well aware that I've escaped many things in life that Lord knows I should not be here but then again I should be here cuz he put here for a reason he gives his toughest battles to his strongest people what the Bible say you heard and I've made it through some very tough battles which are minimal to some of the people that I had next to me in their battles you know what I mean so it's like we all got to figure it out Jim Jones thank you so much man and thanks to God for bringing you here man definitely I appreciate for making time for us bro thank you man we appreciate you tired when you got you I appreciate the fact that you could even make it man got any last question yeah man bro you said you've gone through some tough battles and you mentioned how you lost your dad at like 26 but also that you you pretty much raised yourself from the age of 15 you know from that relationship or lack of it like has it affected how you father your children 100% this made me the best father I could be but me my relationship with my father was always a great one even though he wasn't there because every day he wasn't I love them even more I wasn't one of them kids that was bitter you dig I understand that everybody went through something and at that age what he was going through there was a lot of drug addiction and I knew that from a very young age I understood what drugs was and how they were tearing up my family I never held that against my father and I was just blessed able to get back with him before he passed away so he could see that his son was making something out of himself at that time I was already signed to her uh we think we just got the Rockefeller deal so it was a very big deal for me to be able to get back with my father to show him that me somebody that you should be proud of and I know him looking down right now got be like damn I did that so you know and that's how I feel but then in turn TR here my son I don't you know I mean like I just you know mean I pride myself on making sure that I I turned my son into somebody that was way better than I could ever be you oh man yeah that's my guy shout out to you man is your son still wearing Crocs to you br he's a Croc guy you heard yeah Crocs for Life bro Crocs for Life jumping out the beam with a fresh paer Crocs on I don't want to stand him Jimmy before you go your top five rappers all time my top five rappers of all you got to give us your top five bro yeah Tupac definitely Jay-Z Drake um Drake he not like us by default of course um rock cam no Eminem No No whoa not even big you from NY and not to take nothing away from him he's extremely nice it's retardedly nice when it comes to rap but I listen to artists that kind of you know I mean do something for the life that I live and kind of what I've been through and most of these artist or artist that I'm talking about people that you know what I mean like [ __ ] better stop hating on my boy Drake all of a sudden all this Drake land I get it I get it you ain't like us let's not do that let's not forget the 15 years he been spanking [ __ ] around this [ __ ] all all all over this [ __ ] all the alley he been giving most of these artists that are now seeming to be turning on them let's you know let's not some of them gave him their best hits let's not forget the big picture here and [ __ ] like but what the hip-hop culture and this game is built on competition so I yeah but what is he with it you heard you better put your best foot forward but what has Drake given back to the culture oh that you so love here we go um what is he giving back to the culture I seen him take a lot of people on tour and turn them even richer than they already was I I seen him give a lot of people hits that they would have never had if he wouldn't have got on a record things for the culture that wouldn't have happened in turn records that we would have never knew about him to record that the culture love and things like that I mean he's not from here Canada from the hood I don't believe he owes America too much but the monster that give back to where he's from maybe we should ask about what has he done in Canada giving back to his community as opposed to what he giving back to the culture of the United States when this is not where he's from and I think that's the Divide right there now if we talk about what he's done in Canada and if it's not up to par then maybe we can talk about oh you dig but that's I think that's for the people of Canada you dig like yeah cuz but it's the people of America in the hood who made him of course you heard about but that he didn't grw up in America he didn't grew up here you heard so if you was an artist from Africa yeah like boy yeah do you think bnab boy has responsibility what do Niger of United stes n I'm taking it back home bro super duper big yes but that's what people then will call a culture vulture cuz you come into a space you know do what the people of that space do benefit from them is is is you understand what we doing like it's bro it's not because he's not take so he's not taking benab boy is Nigerian it's a Nigerian culture that is now popular in America so Drake took an American culture and enriched himself but what he's saying is that he doesn't owe anything to America cuz he's not from yet right okay right yeah I mean [ __ ] he's got no obligation Fair argument he got no obligation Fair argument yeah like he lived if he lived like I don't I don't that's how I see it you heard like that's how I see it you dig but all these [ __ ] we talking about are filthy filthy filthy rich off the opinions of men you heard what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never but what I'm just trying to tell you is how this game is played yeah you heard yeah geez man the more we talk the more they get paid the loser still gets paid too if there is a loser I don't think there's a loser when they all getting Millions off of this [ __ ] I don't think I mean like and I understand end all be all in the whole circle of it but I'm I've been in this [ __ ] for so long I'm miss you can see the politics of really get you to understand of what's really going on and [ __ ] like that this [ __ ] don't pay me a dollar to talk about it yeah hey man how tight you with Joe Bon he calls us those African guys with numbers oh yeah yeah yeah Jo this my guy buts what's up man he cool yeah he's an instigator definely know how to get under people's skin yeah I've known Joan for so long [ __ ] like that um I'm proud of him put himself in his position a whole new Lane to make a shitload of money um where it stem from the culture this what I'm talking about all the ancillary things that you need to get going on if are a artist of some type of success you got to use that to get where you want look at Joe used his startom and rap no matter what it was to able to finesse a whole new Lane of podcasting that true he's pretty big in damn near one of the forefathers of it from our culture right y'all started before him or after him we started after him but now we have more numbers than him hey doesn't matter no numbers do matter I mean no J and get num I'm cool with that but you won't be never be the considered the forefather of this whole no no no no no no no you dig 100% yeah it's Jo Joan numbers is cool I'm cool with that you get paid and I know what's a race you might be number one you heard yeah yeah but you still never be the forefather always going to have that under him like I've created this Lane for your how I feel about Ling hip hop yeah of course I got that under my belt that's mine y can never say that was yours at all yeah okay how much money you made off of it and [ __ ] like that at the end of the day you it's mine you heard Still My still mine so we always ask anybody any guest that we get on the show in closing what do you want to be remembered as man when it's all said and done I want I want to be remembered I want I want them to know that I gave more than I took because I was able to take a lot in my time amen just like that sh hey man I wish you put me on love and& hip-hop bro they got the African love of Hip Hop they got Jamaican love of Hip Hop they got they got any type of Love of Hip Hop we need the South African love of Hip Hop thanks Jim man shout out thank you bro I appreciate you man thank you we appreciate podcast and chill we out of here man boom peace welcome to Black excellenc do not fear for if you do just sip on some Grand and if you still do ask ourselves what would M [Music] do when they ask you do not fear for if you do just say an TV this is the the medicine of censorship this is the pill which one is that one podcast and chill	I feel about it I feel great I feel blessed you know what I mean I feel lucky this [ __ ] don't it's not promised and for me to still be here is definitely a blessing so in the 90s what was the vibe like man like like what in the 90s as far as what in hip-hop yeah it was it was different um 90s was a great era um one of my favorite errors um that was the era we first first came outside um started to get out deal uh very aggressive era uh no social media um cell phones were just being born um everything that you seen you was something that you could grab on to um artists had to go to the towns we couldn't just get on your phone and music you had to go get you couldn't just have access to it so it was a it was it it was a hunt um you had to touch the Tails kiss babies do radio everything like it was just a different ER but who was around like during that time when you who was around like Tupac was did you like meet Tupac Tupac I didn't get to meet Tupac um Tupac passed away what 95 was that yeah right in big in '97 um no I got to see Tupac do a few times in Harlem um that was dope but um not Tupac passed away before we got to	8	6	4	I feel great I feel blessed you know what I mean I feel lucky this [ __ ] don't it's not promised and for me to still be here is definitely a blessing	so in the 90s what was the vibe like man like like what in the 90s as far as what in hip-hop yeah it was it was different um 90s was a great era um one of my favorite errors um that was the era we first first came outside um started to get out deal uh very aggressive era uh no social media um cell phones were just being born um everything that you seen you was something that you could grab on to um artists had to go to the towns we couldn't just get on your phone and music you had to go get you couldn't just have access to it so it was a it was it it was a hunt um you had to touch the Tails kiss babies do radio everything like it was just a different ER but who was around like during that time when you who was around like Tupac was did you like meet Tupac	8,4,6	6,5,4	8	4	6	6	5	4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr730VmL-lk	4,054	rr730VmL-lk	2024-06-27 00:00:00	like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano no well Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he showed me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah just understand everybody going there my guy I understand the hate exactly what you're saying yeah bro what's his name I don't it's fine you remember those some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I ain't scared of nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that the dentist yeah dentist got me there what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never [Music] [Music] yo Jimmy you do not look like you want to be here bro like someone forced you to be it's like you have to do that par they're the biggest podcast in Africa you have to be there I never look like I want to be nowhere man you got to part of me but congratulations to yall having the biggest podcast in Africa that that that's very big Africa being one of the biggest continents in the world a lot of people over there shut up man why you so tired bro crazy weekend I've been working all weekend shows different states traveling Planes Trains automobiles you know how I be a little bit too much partying yeah road kill it's tough but what's up how y'all feeling I'm good bro I literally saw um I saw your video uh yesterday for your new single the one you shot in Miami two turn temp yeah yeah how you feel about it bro that [ __ ] is lit man looks like our Vibe bro cuz we've been to Miami myself and and my partner but we never like experienced the Miami night life we were playing in Florida yeah we're DJing in Florida but two South Africans like the diaspora then West Palm Beach as well yeah DJ also yeah like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano what it's a genre it's called a piano no no cuz I'm a piano even you heard like you saw he did the whole Keys thing it has nothing to do with the piano that's where it started but has nothing to do with it these days when when I met charlot man he said the exact same thing he's like oh so you're a podcaster I'm like yeah and then you DJs I'm like no I play I'm a Pian like you're a Pianist man you one talented [ __ ] n it's a genre of music man what kind of genre is that like it's like slowed down house music with a lot of s that African influence that's the only way I can describe it so it's a it's a mix of a marriage house yeah a marriage of house music which originated here at Chicago and stuff and then we slowed it down created a sub genre called guo where guys were sort of rapping but very minimalist raps called guo then the kids were born like in the 2000s late '90s then created a whole meshup of those two genres and it's called Piano cuz a a lot of Americans think it's um afro beats it's not afro beats yeah a lot of the hence I avoided saying afro beats cuz AFR beats is from Nigeria and amap piano is far from afro beat afro beat borrows from am piano now where is amap piano originated from South Africa from the hoods from the Cassis yeah but when I when I was looking at your video bro uh the only thing in my mind was like bro what's a night like out with Jim Jones CU that [ __ ] look lit there [ __ ] everywhere bro um please please describe a night out in Miami with Jim so let's say we going to Miami right now I mean some nice are better than others but been doing it so long it's kind of like the the bare minimum for us to do in Miami just having fun but it still work at the same time like every every I'm I'm not just going out partying for no reason ni like that was we knew what we was kind of getting into we wanted to film a video so we knew we was going to ramp it up a bit take it to the to the highest form going crazy as we could but that actually happened to fall on a big weekend um and one of my dudes was celebrating so everything kind of happened for a reason but yeah Miami could take you for take you for a few a few trips man like okay so so so me and you we get in the car right I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm in Miami I hate you cuz you got a house there you stay there right yeah I got I got I got cribs there so I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm by the strip you know that Miami strip right yeah yeah yeah I mean see that's the thing about Miami when you come to visit Miami that's where people are know at like the strip and things like that I guess stand by Collins and ocean driveing all that people that live there don't really do the strip like that like you just you dig people congregate usually at night time and all the spots that usually go on down there um okay so we got security obviously you got to roll around with security right um yeah I mean that' be the safest thing for me to do so we get out the cut with security when you get to the bouncers are they letting us in cuz it's Jim Jones or are they checking our IDs cuz they've been checking our IDs just to buy beer here bro Che ID everywhere yeah everywhere yeah no I I don't think I produced my ID in since I was a teenager at clubs but yeah you won't need your ID when you with me so we walking in right yeah we going to get in oh do we have a section do we they going to give us a section VIP yeah they going to give us a section we going to get some bottles and let the night ensue got this thing called Power Hour you go to the club maybe like 2:45 to 3:45 in and out no sweat so what's the what's the purpose of that exercise the Power Hour yeah like why would you be in the cloud for an hour why would I be in a club for 4 hours it's Fu I mean I've been part I've been partying since I've been 14 I've been making money to party since I've been 18 I'm kind of burnt out so at this point I try to wait till the club is at the most popping or lest moment which is usually that hour right there and I get to enjoy everything that happened tonight and leave out of there and not be all burnt out what what does your wife say bro cuz you're married man you're surrounded by all these girls like you know I mean I'm going to worry about the women yeah is minimal to the money worry about the money more than anything so so a woman doesn't like give you grief when you come home I yeah you get you get grief all the time if you in a relationship no matter what you do if you had a job on Wall Street you get home you're going to get grief no around it you heard yeah there's women everywhere unless you work in the LGBT Club then you know I mean even there you still going to go home and get like it's no way around it you're going to get you know I mean like yeah so you've never had like been home and you had to explain like yo no man I was just doing music video it's just work like I don't know that good you going to explain yourself in every relationship and things like that I got a good woman at home who understands a job I have and things like that so for the most part but for the most part I'm a very responsible respectable person when when I'm in the streets and when I do have to interact with females and things like that yeah anyway H ladies and gentlemen welcome to another special edition of podcasting chill so CU yeah I am here we're chilling with the [ __ ] Legend Kings of Harlem please make some noise for Jim Jones Jim I gotta say bro I gotta say bro I'm going to be honest with you when I find that your name was GMO geloo gelo I'm like I'm like Jim Jones losing some G points here man what the [ __ ] is that I'm Puerto Rican and a rubian my pops is Puerto Rican the word gelo means William in English is a Spanish Spanish name cuz you know what I was thinking I was thinking that guy who does the show late night you know the short guy who does like the interviews with um this late night comedian man what are the late night shows oh man not uh bad with these oh gosh the late night guy bro uhri or something not Corin O'Brien no not Trevor Noah the other American guy man like uh old new no he's like jimm Kimel Jimmy Kimel jimy he's got that he's got that short guy his name is julo oh I don't I don't I don't got got me messed up I don't even really watch TV like that bro okay I'll be out chasing the money I ain't even got time to do that and if and if I do got some time I'm trying to get a little bit of rest or I'm thinking about money [ __ ] is crucial out here right now you better get to your dollar a lot of [ __ ] about to happen and if you ain't got no coins boy you going to be [ __ ] up you ever been to uh Puerto Rico yeah I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times yeah but business not for the Heritage part of it so like you don't know where like your your your parents were at Familiar of the place where my father's from but I never really got to do the whole go to give with my family understand the roots understand you know I mean like I didn't get to get to that part of it but I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times you find like that's important like to know you it's definitely important I had this um I did an interview not too long ago about um how important the roots are and get to know where my family from know I mean so we'll start to do that pretty soon so so so your dad you know you know your dad right yeah he's passed away oh okay God bless rest in peace what happened to him he passed away yeah like was it um medical thing or yeah natural causes oh damn like when you young or um maybe when I was uh 23 24 oh damn bro SED to hear that man maybe 26 right before my son passed right before my God bless right before my son Bor bro but you like 47 right now I look good for 47y old man no homo you know what I mean thank you very much like what was what's keeping you looking so good is it the yoga yeah a lot of yoga a lot of Pilates I stay in shape um I'm very uh very big on Fitness um work out like five six times a week um it's one of the best ways to stay young and have better chances of living a long life is that why you do it or maybe there's other purpose like you know a lot of people are in gym for their mental health I mean it's very it's very it's very therapeutic I will say that but my main goal is to look good of course but to give me better chances of living forever bro so how you got into rap um I don't know correct me if I'm wrong right but you used to skip church and go to the train station to to rap like no I never skipped Church to go on the train station and rap I skipped Church to go to the train station and go play video games and run the streets and do everything a bad little kid did from the streets of hollow when we was like S8 and n and things like that I don't know if you know about anything about the subway system in New York but that's the pathway system that get you to all five burrows and we definitely was on the subway which maybe we shouldn't have been but we was a little uh loose um for me rapping actually rapping didn't start later on in life to actually uh C and um they I got a deal and things like that and that was the first time me myself really thought about actually raing cuz I'll be honest with you like um dipet I don't really know much about dipet however I know about you guys individually like Cameron old boy like one of my favorite songs uh jul sna had hear that that was Cameron and Jules and jwes he both was on he both old boy and heon yeah why don't you jump on those tracks man those tracks are massive they was already done I was there for the making of both of them incredible tracks yeah and then how did dipit start start like how did you guys start the whole movement um organically kiss him Harem gr up together um talented kids Cam and Mason BL sh was they already was doing music um Everybody gradu graduated high school I didn't get to go to college they went to college they got kicked out they got kicked out they come moved in with me from that that was a uh foundation for them to D into the music you've been in the game for like 20 30 odd years right been in the game for since 1997 how would you describe the different eras of like um hip-hop right especially now cuz um obviously we all know about the Kendrick Lamar song they're not like us but I didn't know how big it was until I landed in in in America and it's like it's like a movement the video yeah it's like huge it's massive bro yeah it's a big record Kendrick did that shout out to Kendrick shout out to my boy Drake but what do you think about like the evolution of hip-hop in all the different areas you've been a part of what do you mean what do I think about it it's a great thing to be a part of something that um you could only dream of everybody doesn't get a chance to be in this game um I've been fortunate enough to be here for so many genres and errors and seen so many people come and go I've watched the smallest artist to the biggest artist who you thow will be here forever and going um I got stories for days I can tell you about um how I feel about it I feel great I feel blessed you know what I mean I feel lucky this [ __ ] don't it's not promised and for me to still be here is definitely a blessing so in the 90s what was the vibe like man like like what in the 90s as far as what in hip-hop yeah it was it was different um 90s was a great era um one of my favorite errors um that was the era we first first came outside um started to get out deal uh very aggressive era uh no social media um cell phones were just being born um everything that you seen you was something that you could grab on to um artists had to go to the towns we couldn't just get on your phone and music you had to go get you couldn't just have access to it so it was a it was it it was a hunt um you had to touch the Tails kiss babies do radio everything like it was just a different ER but who was around like during that time when you who was around like Tupac was did you like meet Tupac Tupac I didn't get to meet Tupac um Tupac passed away what 95 was that yeah right in big in '97 um no I got to see Tupac do a few times in Harlem um that was dope but um not Tupac passed away before we got to get in the record game but I've seen a lot of a lot of artists in my time from a young age to old age we were partying in clubs as teenagers before we even got a record deal and things like that like we were in clubs since high school and [ __ ] like that so any interactions with Big L he was from Harlem right yeah shouts to Big Al Big Al was definitely from Harlem um 139th NFL Big L um I was one of the Cam's uh close friends um actually put cam on a dope record that started to give uh Cam and bloodshed and and her mcgree her was already popping too but guy gave them some notice when it came to R so when you come out like who's who's popping at that time is it git is it mop D it's way before G when we came out I was like Eminem just dropped oh [ __ ] this is Slim Shady not M like Slim Shady I I remember that that was like cam had dropped and Eminem had dropped DMX had dropped Nori had dropped um Big Pun had dropped lud Chris Luda had just started coming out um Nelly Nelly down down baby yeah shouts to coola love um yeah that type of error shouts to shouts to Fat Joe shouts to Buster they was already in it uh Nas was already in it Jay start going crazy that's when he just started taking over with the 1 million 2 million 3 million 4 um yeah very competitive very edgy um lot of the big dogs um had real roots in the streets um especially in the streets of New York so that put that put a real Mystique on everything when it came to the music um all the events with topnotch um it just was a different feel man it was a heavy heavy dope boy era um this was before the drug dealers wanted to be Rappers that's when the rappers wanted to be drug dealers you know what I mean and and that Arrow was was a very dope high impact trenel and Russian it was a was a great error bro I saw an interview you did correct me if I'm wrong I might be paraphrasing but you mentioned a place called the tunnel or something where everybody would be and you guys were [ __ ] [ __ ] in the bathrooms please please describe that manest cuz a place like that couldn't exist right now bro with all this woke [ __ ] I mean yeah and the cancel cult I would say it was probably the greatest Club The Hip hopers have seen and it was during the 90s era it was the Golden Era um in New York they got you had stories about like Studio 54 in that era when everybody used all the biggest of big used to go to Studio 54 well the tunnel was what Studio 54 was to that era to our era and it didn't make so many people and nationalities and genres and just everybody was like a big pumbo all for the sake of the culture you had some of the flyest models to some of the biggest drug dealers biggest gang bangers I mean every former elicit street life you could think of was in the spot along with the biggest artists and rappers and actors and models that you could find into all athletes um it would definitely like that um and was this like per invite or just like anybody could Rock up there nah you couldn't just rock up there for this is '90s entry was like $100 first of all $100 for a club that was the first time we ever heard of it and that was a lot of money back then especially we probably started in '94 going there teenager so $100 was sto a lot of money in New York at the time sneakers wasn't even costing $100 um to get in the club you definitely had to be connected to know somebody or you had to wait on a long line that usually was a block long um they had like an Express line you could pay $100 to get on Express line that'll get you to the door quicker and then you pay your entry fee um streets was blocked off you was a big dog you was able to bring your cars down there I was able to bring like four five of them if I wanted to um yeah the club was just it was different man pull up to the door security they taking people's shoes off they searching your jacket twisting people inside out like they about to go on the Rikers Island I got to I gave security High files I never took my shoes off and not since high school I when we used go in high school we used to get our shoes taken off and things like that make you feel like you going to the cental bookings and [ __ ] like that so what gave you that clout that allowed you to bring four cars in when nobody or you had to be a big dog to bring four cars in when you could just give them a high five instead of removing your shoes and you're young by then like what gives you that CL I was a big dog since a small pup bro J yeah man what gave you those you know credentials at such a young age to suppos all these people cuz Dr Tre was there yeah you putting in four cars not removing shoes I was a good Lord Biden citizen everybody love Jim Jones even even the girls like would you just rock up they say let's go to the bathroom that's it yeah now that well yeah there was a lot of that going on they had a uh the layout was different first of all the club was a block long a whole city block um wow there was like three other four other clubs within the club or spots that look like clubs um the main floor was humongously big the DJ was like a a lifeguard Tower in the middle of the club um you go upstairs they had a VR big V PE upstairs and then go through a door it open up to the bathroom the bathroom was like a unisex Club [ __ ] had a big ass bar in the middle of the bathroom uh bunch of stalls lined up um that [ __ ] was like a hotel inside Lions cocaine everything yeah they was going down a lot of sex was going down there a lot of a lot of drugs was going down in there um yeah the tunnel was definitely uh a landmark to New York City when it comes to the clubs I I definitely um I always think about that club um it did a lot for me in my life um it gave me a lot of imagination when it came to to the culture and the things I was seeing from a young age as to where I want to be and the direction I want to go in yeah we was going there since high school so when you seeing people like Mike Tyson and all these people coming in big cheer on and just having their way as a kid go out got to go to school the next morning you you in school thinking about that [ __ ] like w man this school [ __ ] [ __ ] this school [ __ ] I need some money and I need to go to the tunnel that's all I want to [ __ ] do that's wild man now can you imagine because we in sa right we're looking at all the videos that you guys are pulling out there like we're looking at this lifestyle and then you F Track to 2024 right M and the P didy thing breaks out right I mean i' rather not even to get into that yeah just don't I rather the do I don't you know I mean like it's not it's not my business oh I mean like this you heard God bless it's too much n yeah and it's not me to have an opinion on certain things cuz I ain't perfect I've been through my own [ __ ] in life and I see a lot of people that have even this doing too much just know that I ain't perfect so I choose not to talk on certain [ __ ] that you know what I mean a lot of other people people been talking about I let them keep doing the talk and I got other [ __ ] to work on I'm trying to work on me being a better person yeah I respect I respect that man but were ever part of any gang or like you sounding like the F never hey we don't the F in South Africa man only PS I'm just playing with you yeah I've been affiliated with the bloods in New York City um ENT Tre um yeah so crazy have you ever been to sa like have you ever been to Africa or um I've been to Africa where did you go uh gaban gille damn G to perform there um I went to perform there but uh got some great friends there they actually had ran the country at the time this is before the big yeah yeah overtaking and stuff like that but I had a ball out there I got to go to an island called Pony um that was a dope experience as they took me to the jungles I got to see some of the indigenous people um it was like a a real um life Awakening like and I got to see how also the rich people live out there also like I got to see both sides like that you know what I mean it was it was a great experience I out there for like a week um I haven't been back since but yeah it was dope you never been to South Africa never been to South Africa bro so the reason why I asked that is because like yo bro like American culture has infiltrated South Africa like you can't believe like you know we got people worshiping you guys you know Jim Jones rappers and everything you so we've got rappers who rap just like you and youd say they're like Bloods and Crips but they've never they've never left sa you know cuz that's how influential uh the culture is right but from you when you see or hear that like what do you guys think like do you think is like some [ __ ] like or like leave don't don't follow the gang life you know what I mean oh as far as that is concerned um there's two sides to that this what you do as a gang member that turns it into something that becomes a crime or whatever that end but the Brotherhood part of it is what the most of us joined up for when we coming up in the hood and need that Brotherhood lean on somebody is that type of camaraderie that pretty much stood for and there's a lot of other great attributes that comes with affiliation or you becoming a part of a gang um it gets twisted up because we all come up in these urban communities and our back is against the wall we don't have no opportunities um it's very dormant uh we on top of each other so naturally testosterone testosterone wins in a lot of these situations where these kids find s in bad situations and for that I would tell people to kind of stay away from this type of life um I don't want to oppose my will we all going to experience what we going to experience but I can't tell you the consequences to this type of Lifestyle could be very dear you heard ethal a lot of people don't get to make it where I made it and Escape that lifestyle that could have put me away or could have put me in the dirt I mean so here as a Living testament to tell you that these consequences are terrible the odds on you making it out of that life in a positive manner are very slim I mean but if you are in that life and you taking it as a Brotherhood and try to uplift your brothers I know there's a lot of people around you that are doing a lot of [ __ ] that that that that that's very crazy you know what I mean if you're a part of that and you got the positive minder then you try to uplift your brother and instill some positivity within them because it's very cold out here so I've always been curious bro like so when that when you you you start getting immersed you know or Affiliated in the gang life how does that affect the conversation at home with your parents like your mom your dad and just the domestic you know Dynamics I a't grow my parents I was a grown man since I was like 15 I made my own money since I was like 16 my grandmother left me in high school man I was raising my Sisters by myself in the projects I hustle every I ever got in my life that's why music saved my life I was so grateful to be able to be next to cam and him getting a deal at such a very young age to be able to still be making money off that [ __ ] right now you were U anr for Warner uh music group yeah I was the director of anr for Warner Music Group um years ago uh shouts to Kevin L shouts to Leo Cohen for giving me the opportunity um great opportunity uh I excelled at it extremely very young with a lot of power but didn't understand what I had at hand um didn't have too many people in my corner that were telling me the things that I should have been doing with that type of position as opposed to some type of weird way be hating you know I mean so that's what happened but as you get older you learn you learn and you move on who did you discover while you were in that position uh I would tell you a story I I know I've helped try s uh they come to tra songs that you know today he's always in he's always in we know why no n but he was a young kid at the time and uh they were actually going to cut him from the label we had a big uh um it's like uh one of them uh some events they be doing not the talent shows the uh well was something like that all the artists had to come perform and then they pretty much didn't know that they was on a Cho and block at the time when I was an executive and and he was one of the artists that they were going to cut and I remember Kevin L specifically ask me yo what we should do with him I'm about to cut him I don't know what to do with him and when I heard him uh singing and I saw him perform I was like this is this is one artist you should keep and did that and now we all tra songs on so many dope ass records is it true you could have signed Drake yeah I had a chance to sign uh I had a chance to do business with Drake um through Allan grum blat um when I was doing business at cotch um it was a different era I didn't understand what Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he show me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah understand everybody going at my guy I understand the hate man the hate is so phenomenal it's just how this game go man this game is so tricky man these [ __ ] just like females in this game we ain't going to get into that man there's a lot of uh but wait wait wait so so with Drake like are you are you seeing him perform like try songs or like you just heard of the guy just a conversation Allan called me about signing a kid let me hear some of his music um and I was like the kid know how to rap but I don't know what to do with him his image is crazy and him couple years later heard him on a Wheezy mixtape going crazy I was like wow this kid is about to go wham inside of this business and he sure did and you're know trying to call Weezy like yo man I gotta get that kid or something n he was already signed a young money and jcole did you miss on jcole as well I could have signed J Cole bro jcole was in the studio with me every day and at that point jcole I he's he remind me of a knockoff Drake and not to say it like that but that's who he sounded like he came to my studio every day rapping to these Drake beats rapping like Drake Cadence like Drake he could rap his ass off yeah you heard yeah but it was already a drake out there he had the Caesar it was different like two lightskinn [ __ ] might not K when raing the same but you never know what you got in front of you man you dig and those are lessons I I've took with me to moving forward when I see artists and and I hate artists I always give them more than just hearing just just I got to I got to I gotta try to capture the whole picture I make sure I just don't you mean so I don't miss nothing else because I've missed a few people and I've helped a few people um gain a lot of success in in my time in this industry whether it been by me having a meeting with them or me having influence on them or you know I mean so you know and there's never like any animosity like Jake Cole or Drake never came up to be like yo you could have signed me look at me now bro I mean me and Drake is cool as [ __ ] um I see J Cole I don't think he I mean I don't think that's no he some [ __ ] he might want to keep to himself not to be like that sh the co he not that type of artist he's not a you I mean yeah you did I look I look at as we can see I want to mention an artist who like I'm really fond of like I think this guy's [ __ ] amazing musically talented everything that he touched like turned to Gold who's that uh kid k bro K Cy yeah yeah did you help him with his career yeah I birth K Cy wow J me how so bro bir them nobody would have know who K Cy was at all if I a jump on this remix record but it wasn't even remix he wasn't even a nobody like I tell a story all the time I had a inter used to work for me said he got some dudes that do videos they would like to do a video for me told them come let me see they work they show me their videos the first video they showed me was of the kid Cy record he's on the top of a roof some simple video the record sound more wavy than the opportunity for them to do a video I'm like well if you'll get me the beat to this record I Remix this record and then y'all can shoot the video to that record wow and that's what they did and then um the radio station ripped the record off of YouTube and start playing it at Hot 97 and K Cy was born bro why do you think especially about kid Cy cuz from him when I listen to music right it wasn't really no no other kid Cy record besides the one that I was on yeah man he's not in they don't play his records where I be at at all not to be funny wow bro and we listen to him like all that day and night you know remember only record I know yeah it's the only record I know unless it's like a pop record that everybody know and I and I'm even not paying attention to it but he don't his records don't get played nowhere that i' be at not like that unless I go into a different farm and that's the type of music they playing in one of these funny clubs that play fist pump music and pop music he's not into like you dig like they don't play his music in the clubs I'll be at maybe in Vegas and [ __ ] like that but that's not like they not pumping this [ __ ] in live they not pumping this [ __ ] in Atlanta they not pumping this [ __ ] down the Stafford room or you know what I mean like they I'm not saying nothing like that but I don't hear it in the strip clubs I don't hear like you know what I mean so but he's a very successful person with some of the greats like Kanye to put him in a position to win and [ __ ] like that and I think he's way more better as an actor than he is a musician and that's just my POS that's just my opinion he did I seen him in the movie uh about the race car [ __ ] where he was F the playe like he got a lot of Charisma and [ __ ] like that on on camera for what I could see and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean bro I mean for you as Jim Jones to to see these kids you're introduced to them by an intern and then to hop onto that song it's something selfless you know to just give these unknown kids an opportunity of sharing a song with you where do you think that selflessness comes from how was that unknown kid I'm still an unknown kid anytime I get an opportunity that's an opportunity I should be able to give to somebody else bro the fact that you could even come to our podcast shout out man yeah man you don't even know us exactly what you're saying yeah know us what's his name I don't it's fine you know remember those kids who who did the video for him anyway you know remember I remember like that kids that got the biggest African podcast I'm definitely going to know like them is my guys right family right there appreciate I really mean that that sincerely and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean I I bump in too many people in my life and been across too many people in my journey to actually remember everybody's name but the face and the cause and I mean BR I want to understand right the first time you came up with the concept For Love and Hip Hop where were you what was happening that um that was something like uh me and Christy she had opportunity to do uh her own reality show um and actually fell through and that kind of she was kind of she wanted to do that I can see she was eager about doing that when it fell through kind you know I mean [ __ ] with her mood and [ __ ] like that so so so so so the initial concept what was it was just Chrissy just showing like what's life the initial concept was about she had her own thing going on about a group of women that was supposed to do a reality show had nothing to do with me yeah that [ __ ] fell through she lost that opportunity to end up not going people have been begging me to do reality TV for past couple years at the time and I and you reality TV gold man I refused to do it yeah and then when that happened I was like all right I got I'll do this for you and we'll make it about you and females that have to that are involved with artist such as myself and show what the relationship side is when you're dealing with a high-profile artist and you know what I mean how so that's how that started bro and that thing became a monster super super monster like it's still big till this day bro 100% so do you have like uh ownership in that we we were link a all that you know at that time when maybe the second season we just in a position where we refuse to compromise our dignity for anyone or any dollar and sometimes it be like that you know what I mean um but ain't no stress off my back T my hat to him you no but but but we got to talk about that because you see like this podcast um it's blackowned right it's just me and a couple of other people that are involved in the podcast right and we're always striving for ownership so a lot of um Brands and investors have come to try to buy the podcast and we say know cuz like we believe in ownership and telling the story the way we want to tell it right so what went wrong in that because as a hustler I believe like that's your also end goal MH um it wasn't something that I was just a lot of different layers and [ __ ] like that and I was too worried about doing other things and we had the opportunity to gain all ownership 50% of the whole TV show and all that but it still wasn't worth GE bro that's insane you just let go like that yeah bro it's your brain child bro there is no Love and& Hip Hop without you bro I still got a brain you heard yeah those are for people that don't have a brain that lack creativity people that steal things from you lack what you don't have remember that yeah whether it's money whether it's creativity whatever it is they lack what you don't have ultimately they steal from you you heard I mean we didn't even know C beef if it wasn't for Love and& Hip Hop right yeah yeah yeah definitely yeah bro you gave birth to so many many people man like VI their careers that's the god in me that's why I'm always going to be good yeah she man so any other shows that you're working on like in the pipeline that you want to do I was telling you I working on um a late night show a late night um a late night variety show live in studio audience hopefully we'll be filming in about 40 to 60 days um beautiful concept I do I do believe people going enjoy the show um like I was saying I can't do um a podcast is too personal for me and [ __ ] like that and me watching these podcasts um dealing with these artists me myself don't have the temperament for it you know what I mean um I [ __ ] I T my hat to y'all to have to deal with artists such as myself cuz you never know what type of mood they going to come in you know what I me some of these artists have a air to them where they feel like they better than most and they would never sit and have tea with the with the maintenance guy you heard me myself me going to maintenance guy going to smoke blunts before I get on stage [Music] I live my life and and and currently uh before we let you go man what do you think about the state of hip-hop cuz like statistically numbers wise it's not looking good man e beats has played all over New York now there's now the pianos this is this is what they want you to do this is how to get us to go against each other it's all under the same culture umbrella it's afro music ref I'm a piano I'm a piano explain that what do you mean by that bro yeah R&B what do you mean by that ultimately it's all from under the same origin and creativity of the same person from the same colors is all our thing n but let's be honest Jimmy hip-hop hasn't involved bro when I was listening to Eminem what do you want mean what do you mean hip-hop hasn't evolved you guys are still rapping about the same stuff it don't you you missing the point of what hip-hop is yeah hip-hop has evolved to a point that you can be the music genres that you're told them about can be noticed you think that if there was a hip hop that I'm a piano would be noticed or afro Beach would be noticed think about that and not to take nothing away from y because you always have culture and yes that music might be big within the continent of Africa yeah right but to cross over to American Fame and commercialism you don't think that the hip-hop culture played a big part in that that's that that's a different argument now you want to have a different argument I'm telling you the semantics of where we going with this you dig like you talking about uh the the hip hop music is damn percentage that's how they want us to think when it's really not cuz we all uplifting each other you heard you think that the country music that's going on in the black people winning is not because of the hip-hop culture no no no I think no one is disputing that however so then when you say hip-hop numbers are down and damn for who no I'm talking about I know what you're talking about but damn for who tell me who it's down for because I'm still making the money I make yeah I do believe there's still a lot of artist that's making a shitload of money that they make I don't think it went down for them yeah you know what I mean but I understand what you're talking about they say the numbers and then rock and roll genre might be up like I don't really you heard like that's I'm into this business you heard and it's always up for us you heard cuz this is a business we make money out of nothing it's never a downside to this okay and and that's why I'm saying I think we're having two different conversations here cuz the conversation I'm having is I'm having I'm having right is that in as much as he's saying yeah the numbers are down because they orchestrated and whatever I get that right but also that's why I asked do you think Hip-hop has evolved cuz I grew up on hip-hop right and the same things um quote unquote you guys were rapping about in the '90s how can hipop how can hip hop evolved in the same thing that Africa been Africa been going on since the '90s aren't y going still going through the same thing we are huh we are so how could the music evolve when the music ref the time ah okay get you real stories what you want us to rap about [ __ ] that that we don't have ah we talk about [ __ ] we dream about all the time that's the good The Good Life the colorin the Ros we talk about but the truth is how the music going to change when our position hasn't changed when we still going through the same [ __ ] we've been going through okay and y'all being from Africa should know that more than we know that yeah that's facts that's fact go about that own Cod yeah yeah yeah yeah you know are bro that's a valid fact but how do you feel man like you've come from an era where you guys when what you you said in your raps I mean evolved as far as dition as far as what we rap about cuz we still stuck in the same place but as a business it has evolved to one of big time yeah yeah biggest big time money making machines you can attach yourself to this made some of the richest individuals whether you're the rapper the lawyer the executive like that's true you know what I mean the supply chain but then I think that's why you know when you get the likes of a wz coming out and Kendrick Lamar they stand out like a sore thumb because like they are rapping about but that's what music is about to stand out for those who that want to look like everybody they don't get nowhere why you think Dip set was so successful sucessful yeah because we stood out on purpose we don't want to look like or H or sound like no one else m we want yall to above all see us when we walk in the building and hear us when we get on that [ __ ] mic you heard why would you guys the diplomats I never like where did that come from the diplomats the name the diplomats yeah we diplomats oh ah okay that sounded cool no we diplomats we are Harlem diplomats and we take it as that you heard we go to the Embassy when we land in countries you heard all right okay okay okay I I sort of get that bro so in the business and how you still making money right now like from music just like how is it royalties damn you asking a lot of questions bro no I want to know bro I'm so I've got so many questions I want to ask you bro I'll tell you this music is supposed to be used so you can make as much ancillary dollars as you can because the music ain't promised everybody 15 minutes of fame ranges from a small 15 minutes of fame to a run like we having within that minute the 15 minutes the fame you better do a lot of other things to secure your bag because music is not going to be thing you be able to get paid off forever unless you're the DRS and the J that's not even 1% that's you know what I mean so you think about that so you better have some hustle you better learn how to you better have some business sense you better put your credit in order you better do a few things to secure you if you are artist [ __ ] leverage powerful penda yeah man how do you feel man when these kids these days wrap up about you know trying to act tough and rap about stuff they never done like you guys red about stuff you lived I mean I do believe a lot of these kids are going through a lot of [ __ ] that we went through and then a lot of the kids are talking about [ __ ] that they see but most of the kids are all growing up in the same community that all of that [ __ ] is going on so who tells them they don't have the right to talk about [ __ ] that they're not doing when that's still [ __ ] that they're seeing oh sure Ah that's powerful but the problem I have a problem when they rapping like they did it but they just R from somebody else's Vantage Point understand that but most of these artists that you've seen in the game some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I pretty firm in his in in his music that I'm a believer that he did some of that [ __ ] he can talk about just me I don't know you possibilities are possibilities but some things just seem correct you know mean I can't tell you for sure cuz it is music you know what I mean but some things seem correct [ __ ] man bro you got to come out to man you got to you know we haven't had a proper uh hip-hop concert in sa like since 50 N since you are come on back to the city does concerts man ah those are for old people empd the bigest artist in South Africa right now Hip-Hop Hip-Hop uh there's a guy called nastyc but nesty came here he doesn't know know you f poopa who's that nah F poopa Nigerian West African artist massive he used to pop not now for real still massive bigger than like ber boyo still it's different type of music oh stadiums is 50 60,000 people like what is this following this gu what's his name f poop F poop I don't know him bro he's from Nigeria yeah yeah yeah yeah Nigerian Prett pretty big yeah humongous bro how big was was 50 Cent bro like during his Reign man like how big was 50 Cent [ __ ] retardedly big it wasn't nothing bigger than him was Drake before Drake was dring he was oh [ __ ] he did it like it was like 50 was on a run that he never even touched the club bro like [ __ ] never seen him in the club he only did Arenas I never knew too many artist that just did that you dig like the [ __ ] was super massive every [ __ ] Rec he came out with was was going platinum and I'm just telling you the facts you heard and I always got to speak factual no matter how I feel about a person the [ __ ] was on top Super on top it was no way to knock him off his d i remember Jay-Z dropped the diss track on you did you guys resolve that beef I think you were not happy with him as the president of De jam oh man um we never really had a beef um we had some feuds back and forth through the situations that were going on over other people um and me being who I am I had to hold my ground um but to know that he actually talked about me in multiple of his records mean that I was pretty big in his eyes you dig true true cuz I didn't hear him talk about too many people in his career and if he did talk you talk about you on the record that meant something you know what I mean and I was then so for me that I I I took that like what it was like you dig like yeah J doesn't respond to take the time out to say my name you heard if I'm if I'm not that big of a deal to you you would never ever a am I am I right talk about a person you heard true it's it's a form of respect and ackowledge 100% am I right in saying a lot of [ __ ] are scared of Jay-Z bro cuz we interviewed Dam Ian I don't I don't know I'm not a lot of [ __ ] you heard I'm a man so I couldn't I I couldn't tell you that you heard I ain't scared to nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that that that dentist yeah the dentist got me there you heard you can walk in you could walk we about to fight right now you a dentist walk in you got it you got it like you got it bow down you got it I don't want no smoke let me get out of here M fact word Jimmy before you go man uh what beefs did you have so you had something beef with Jay-Z right no man I just told you we had some feuds stemming from that's beef bro stemming from other things that going on um my problem like it was all part of Us coming up in the game and things were happening we were signing a Rockefeller cam was sign a Rockefeller actually then we got opportunity to Diplomat records um the split between uh Jay and Dame came um artist took sides some took the J side some took the the Dame side which side were you on we was on the Dame side OB Dash yeah Dame Dash that's do you think Dame Dash is misunderstood bro huh you think Dame Dash is misunderstood um too smart for his own good I get that yeah if you had the opportunity again you sometimes being the smartest person in the room could be held against you especially when you want everybody to know that you're the smartest person in the room yeah yeah yeah and I get given a second chance would you still side with Dam never you wouldn't never whoa I never signed a d at all that was no no no like sided with him took his side oh give a second chance I wouldn't have sided with none of them I would we would haveed our [ __ ] business but you learned that with age yeah you heard we had no business butting into that because it wasn't a street beef and this wasn't some [ __ ] that had to do with us ultimately we were holding our [ __ ] down and [ __ ] like that but business-wise if we would if we knew what we knew now we would let them get into that they self y'all can handle that because we got records to put out and music to make and we got our own record label to run you dig and this my hinder what we got going on by us taking sides and that's why I tell people now even when people seeing all the Diplomat [ __ ] like y bro don't don't get in to taking sides with me and my bro because you never know how that might end up and if it end up to a point where we do figure out our situation then I'm looking at you funny now me and you got forever you heard you dig and there are plenty of people that did that and plenty people that didn't and plenty people that showed the same amount of love that he showed to me that it showed to cam when we were going through our imaginary situations and [ __ ] like that cuz it's all imaginary when you know you can figure figure it out now it's a saying that like don't just be in people's business when especially when they've beef and take sides cuz and I I had to learn that a lot I had took me a long time to learn that because of how we come up in the Cod that they supposedly treat us in teach us in the street and [ __ ] like that but sometimes that's not the smallest thing that we can do and then uh push a t did you ever beef with him nah that was some [ __ ] that we was on record um he did some [ __ ] I did some [ __ ] you dig that was it I never followed that I didn't even know did you know there's a pusher T me I ain't got no just know I don't know I know you're from I know you're from Africa and [ __ ] like that but people don't play with me yeah for real and I don't I don't play with people this ain't no playground you heard this is the street it's two ways don't get caught up in a yellow line it's going to be hard to cross bro yeah you heard no I don't trust me I'm from Africa but I saw what happened at the airport so that [ __ ] escalated yeah [ __ ] that was self-defense man God yo bro it looked like that guy was just messing with you bro I wish that could have never happened cuz I was trying to avoid that by all cause but [ __ ] happened sometime man you dig and definitely not not going to allow anybody do anything to me at all bro when I saw that video right like I don't know I just met you today right but I saw when you lifted that guy from the escalator threw him down he literally just went on survival mode bro like it's like there was a button that you switched on and you just like I don't [ __ ] care but yeah yeah no I mean no that's a button that I choose not to push you heard yeah exactly like you can go there quickly I choose to show restraint for a lot of reasons in my life and sometimes it's hard to you dig but where I'm at in life right now I choose positivity or all the other things that come out my way because I know how it is to be negative I was once that negative person that was very aggressive and ready to do something to to you over the minimal alistic of things and [ __ ] like that so I'm blessed to be here to try to be able to show restraint and so so the guy so the guy at the airport you guys on the same plane yeah we on the same plane so you don't have a private jet no I don't have a private jet I'm not a rich man come on Jimmy you made so much money over the years but anyway so you're in the plane what's he what's this guy saying to you like um I don't know man just [ __ ] happens I know just the started from the plane just know that what you see happen on so it starts on the plane you restrain yourself you're like all right cool my dog say whatever you want to say yeah when he gets to the airport I mean the escalator that's when I think he starts hitting you or something right yeah something like that he tried to do something like that and that's what we see man but like I said this is not something that I want to glorify it's not you think he knows who you are um if if he didn't he know now no I'm I'm sorry see sorry cuz some people just provoke I believe he was he was trolling a little bit and things like that which is cool you I mean I'm if if you in New York not time 10 you do know who I am so you know I believe it was a bit of that but God bless man hopefully that they all right hopefully the old man um cool you dig like are you spiritual cuz you mentioned God a lot man yeah I'm very spiritual very spiritual very spiritual I've been my whole family is spiritual and what does that mean in an American sense cuz um us as African for me it means a lot of different things um I was told what the church was as a young age as they drag you to church every Sunday your grandmother your moms and your family and things like that and you really don't understand what that is from that young but as you get older and you go through certain things and you make it through certain things you understand that there is a God and everybody has a relationship with their God different and sometimes going to church doesn't mean that you love your God any less or he loves you any less you dig and you say spiritual I'm very spiritual I say my prayers as much as I can sometime two three four times in a day you dig man doesn't take away from what I do and who I am because I'm still in the line for everything else everybody is in but I know every day that I'm able to wake up and every day I'm able to make a dollar and every day I'm able to keep living the life that I am I should be thankful you heard cuz that's not just me that's a higher vibration that's definitely a God you dig and I'm well aware that I've escaped many things in life that Lord knows I should not be here but then again I should be here cuz he put here for a reason he gives his toughest battles to his strongest people what the Bible say you heard and I've made it through some very tough battles which are minimal to some of the people that I had next to me in their battles you know what I mean so it's like we all got to figure it out Jim Jones thank you so much man and thanks to God for bringing you here man definitely I appreciate for making time for us bro thank you man we appreciate you tired when you got you I appreciate the fact that you could even make it man got any last question yeah man bro you said you've gone through some tough battles and you mentioned how you lost your dad at like 26 but also that you you pretty much raised yourself from the age of 15 you know from that relationship or lack of it like has it affected how you father your children 100% this made me the best father I could be but me my relationship with my father was always a great one even though he wasn't there because every day he wasn't I love them even more I wasn't one of them kids that was bitter you dig I understand that everybody went through something and at that age what he was going through there was a lot of drug addiction and I knew that from a very young age I understood what drugs was and how they were tearing up my family I never held that against my father and I was just blessed able to get back with him before he passed away so he could see that his son was making something out of himself at that time I was already signed to her uh we think we just got the Rockefeller deal so it was a very big deal for me to be able to get back with my father to show him that me somebody that you should be proud of and I know him looking down right now got be like damn I did that so you know and that's how I feel but then in turn TR here my son I don't you know I mean like I just you know mean I pride myself on making sure that I I turned my son into somebody that was way better than I could ever be you oh man yeah that's my guy shout out to you man is your son still wearing Crocs to you br he's a Croc guy you heard yeah Crocs for Life bro Crocs for Life jumping out the beam with a fresh paer Crocs on I don't want to stand him Jimmy before you go your top five rappers all time my top five rappers of all you got to give us your top five bro yeah Tupac definitely Jay-Z Drake um Drake he not like us by default of course um rock cam no Eminem No No whoa not even big you from NY and not to take nothing away from him he's extremely nice it's retardedly nice when it comes to rap but I listen to artists that kind of you know I mean do something for the life that I live and kind of what I've been through and most of these artist or artist that I'm talking about people that you know what I mean like [ __ ] better stop hating on my boy Drake all of a sudden all this Drake land I get it I get it you ain't like us let's not do that let's not forget the 15 years he been spanking [ __ ] around this [ __ ] all all all over this [ __ ] all the alley he been giving most of these artists that are now seeming to be turning on them let's you know let's not some of them gave him their best hits let's not forget the big picture here and [ __ ] like but what the hip-hop culture and this game is built on competition so I yeah but what is he with it you heard you better put your best foot forward but what has Drake given back to the culture oh that you so love here we go um what is he giving back to the culture I seen him take a lot of people on tour and turn them even richer than they already was I I seen him give a lot of people hits that they would have never had if he wouldn't have got on a record things for the culture that wouldn't have happened in turn records that we would have never knew about him to record that the culture love and things like that I mean he's not from here Canada from the hood I don't believe he owes America too much but the monster that give back to where he's from maybe we should ask about what has he done in Canada giving back to his community as opposed to what he giving back to the culture of the United States when this is not where he's from and I think that's the Divide right there now if we talk about what he's done in Canada and if it's not up to par then maybe we can talk about oh you dig but that's I think that's for the people of Canada you dig like yeah cuz but it's the people of America in the hood who made him of course you heard about but that he didn't grw up in America he didn't grew up here you heard so if you was an artist from Africa yeah like boy yeah do you think bnab boy has responsibility what do Niger of United stes n I'm taking it back home bro super duper big yes but that's what people then will call a culture vulture cuz you come into a space you know do what the people of that space do benefit from them is is is you understand what we doing like it's bro it's not because he's not take so he's not taking benab boy is Nigerian it's a Nigerian culture that is now popular in America so Drake took an American culture and enriched himself but what he's saying is that he doesn't owe anything to America cuz he's not from yet right okay right yeah I mean [ __ ] he's got no obligation Fair argument he got no obligation Fair argument yeah like he lived if he lived like I don't I don't that's how I see it you heard like that's how I see it you dig but all these [ __ ] we talking about are filthy filthy filthy rich off the opinions of men you heard what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never but what I'm just trying to tell you is how this game is played yeah you heard yeah geez man the more we talk the more they get paid the loser still gets paid too if there is a loser I don't think there's a loser when they all getting Millions off of this [ __ ] I don't think I mean like and I understand end all be all in the whole circle of it but I'm I've been in this [ __ ] for so long I'm miss you can see the politics of really get you to understand of what's really going on and [ __ ] like that this [ __ ] don't pay me a dollar to talk about it yeah hey man how tight you with Joe Bon he calls us those African guys with numbers oh yeah yeah yeah Jo this my guy buts what's up man he cool yeah he's an instigator definely know how to get under people's skin yeah I've known Joan for so long [ __ ] like that um I'm proud of him put himself in his position a whole new Lane to make a shitload of money um where it stem from the culture this what I'm talking about all the ancillary things that you need to get going on if are a artist of some type of success you got to use that to get where you want look at Joe used his startom and rap no matter what it was to able to finesse a whole new Lane of podcasting that true he's pretty big in damn near one of the forefathers of it from our culture right y'all started before him or after him we started after him but now we have more numbers than him hey doesn't matter no numbers do matter I mean no J and get num I'm cool with that but you won't be never be the considered the forefather of this whole no no no no no no no you dig 100% yeah it's Jo Joan numbers is cool I'm cool with that you get paid and I know what's a race you might be number one you heard yeah yeah but you still never be the forefather always going to have that under him like I've created this Lane for your how I feel about Ling hip hop yeah of course I got that under my belt that's mine y can never say that was yours at all yeah okay how much money you made off of it and [ __ ] like that at the end of the day you it's mine you heard Still My still mine so we always ask anybody any guest that we get on the show in closing what do you want to be remembered as man when it's all said and done I want I want to be remembered I want I want them to know that I gave more than I took because I was able to take a lot in my time amen just like that sh hey man I wish you put me on love and& hip-hop bro they got the African love of Hip Hop they got Jamaican love of Hip Hop they got they got any type of Love of Hip Hop we need the South African love of Hip Hop thanks Jim man shout out thank you bro I appreciate you man thank you we appreciate podcast and chill we out of here man boom peace welcome to Black excellenc do not fear for if you do just sip on some Grand and if you still do ask ourselves what would M [Music] do when they ask you do not fear for if you do just say an TV this is the the medicine of censorship this is the pill which one is that one podcast and chill	you was a big dog you was able to bring your cars down there I was able to bring like four five of them if I wanted to um yeah the club was just it was different man pull up to the door security they taking people's shoes off they searching your jacket twisting people inside out like they about to go on the Rikers Island I got to I gave security High files I never took my shoes off and not since high school I when we used go in high school we used to get our shoes taken off and things like that make you feel like you going to the cental bookings and [ __ ] like that so what gave you that clout that allowed you to bring four cars in when nobody or you had to be a big dog to bring four cars in when you could just give them a high five instead of removing your shoes and you're young by then like what gives you that CL I was a big dog since a small pup bro J yeah man what gave you those you know credentials at such a young age to suppos all these people cuz Dr Tre was there yeah you putting in four cars not removing shoes I was a good Lord Biden citizen everybody love Jim Jones even even the girls like would you just rock up they say let's go to the bathroom that's it yeah	8	6	9	you was a big dog you was able to bring your cars down there I was able to bring like four five of them if I wanted to um yeah the club was just it was different man pull up to the door security they taking people's shoes off they searching your jacket twisting people inside out like they about to go on the Rikers Island I got to I gave security High files I never took my shoes off and not since high school I when we used go in high school we used to get our shoes taken off and things like that make you feel like you going to the cental bookings and [ __ ] like that so what gave you that clout that allowed you to bring four cars in when nobody or you had to be a big dog to bring four cars in when you could just give them a high five instead of removing your shoes and you're young by then like what gives you that CL	I was a big dog since a small pup bro J yeah man what gave you those you know credentials at such a young age to suppos all these people cuz Dr Tre was there yeah you putting in four cars not removing shoes I was a good Lord Biden citizen everybody love Jim Jones even even the girls like would you just rock up they say let's go to the bathroom that's it yeah	2,4,8	8,6,9	2	4	8	8	6	9
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr730VmL-lk	4,054	rr730VmL-lk	2024-06-27 00:00:00	like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano no well Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he showed me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah just understand everybody going there my guy I understand the hate exactly what you're saying yeah bro what's his name I don't it's fine you remember those some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I ain't scared of nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that the dentist yeah dentist got me there what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never [Music] [Music] yo Jimmy you do not look like you want to be here bro like someone forced you to be it's like you have to do that par they're the biggest podcast in Africa you have to be there I never look like I want to be nowhere man you got to part of me but congratulations to yall having the biggest podcast in Africa that that that's very big Africa being one of the biggest continents in the world a lot of people over there shut up man why you so tired bro crazy weekend I've been working all weekend shows different states traveling Planes Trains automobiles you know how I be a little bit too much partying yeah road kill it's tough but what's up how y'all feeling I'm good bro I literally saw um I saw your video uh yesterday for your new single the one you shot in Miami two turn temp yeah yeah how you feel about it bro that [ __ ] is lit man looks like our Vibe bro cuz we've been to Miami myself and and my partner but we never like experienced the Miami night life we were playing in Florida yeah we're DJing in Florida but two South Africans like the diaspora then West Palm Beach as well yeah DJ also yeah like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano what it's a genre it's called a piano no no cuz I'm a piano even you heard like you saw he did the whole Keys thing it has nothing to do with the piano that's where it started but has nothing to do with it these days when when I met charlot man he said the exact same thing he's like oh so you're a podcaster I'm like yeah and then you DJs I'm like no I play I'm a Pian like you're a Pianist man you one talented [ __ ] n it's a genre of music man what kind of genre is that like it's like slowed down house music with a lot of s that African influence that's the only way I can describe it so it's a it's a mix of a marriage house yeah a marriage of house music which originated here at Chicago and stuff and then we slowed it down created a sub genre called guo where guys were sort of rapping but very minimalist raps called guo then the kids were born like in the 2000s late '90s then created a whole meshup of those two genres and it's called Piano cuz a a lot of Americans think it's um afro beats it's not afro beats yeah a lot of the hence I avoided saying afro beats cuz AFR beats is from Nigeria and amap piano is far from afro beat afro beat borrows from am piano now where is amap piano originated from South Africa from the hoods from the Cassis yeah but when I when I was looking at your video bro uh the only thing in my mind was like bro what's a night like out with Jim Jones CU that [ __ ] look lit there [ __ ] everywhere bro um please please describe a night out in Miami with Jim so let's say we going to Miami right now I mean some nice are better than others but been doing it so long it's kind of like the the bare minimum for us to do in Miami just having fun but it still work at the same time like every every I'm I'm not just going out partying for no reason ni like that was we knew what we was kind of getting into we wanted to film a video so we knew we was going to ramp it up a bit take it to the to the highest form going crazy as we could but that actually happened to fall on a big weekend um and one of my dudes was celebrating so everything kind of happened for a reason but yeah Miami could take you for take you for a few a few trips man like okay so so so me and you we get in the car right I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm in Miami I hate you cuz you got a house there you stay there right yeah I got I got I got cribs there so I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm by the strip you know that Miami strip right yeah yeah yeah I mean see that's the thing about Miami when you come to visit Miami that's where people are know at like the strip and things like that I guess stand by Collins and ocean driveing all that people that live there don't really do the strip like that like you just you dig people congregate usually at night time and all the spots that usually go on down there um okay so we got security obviously you got to roll around with security right um yeah I mean that' be the safest thing for me to do so we get out the cut with security when you get to the bouncers are they letting us in cuz it's Jim Jones or are they checking our IDs cuz they've been checking our IDs just to buy beer here bro Che ID everywhere yeah everywhere yeah no I I don't think I produced my ID in since I was a teenager at clubs but yeah you won't need your ID when you with me so we walking in right yeah we going to get in oh do we have a section do we they going to give us a section VIP yeah they going to give us a section we going to get some bottles and let the night ensue got this thing called Power Hour you go to the club maybe like 2:45 to 3:45 in and out no sweat so what's the what's the purpose of that exercise the Power Hour yeah like why would you be in the cloud for an hour why would I be in a club for 4 hours it's Fu I mean I've been part I've been partying since I've been 14 I've been making money to party since I've been 18 I'm kind of burnt out so at this point I try to wait till the club is at the most popping or lest moment which is usually that hour right there and I get to enjoy everything that happened tonight and leave out of there and not be all burnt out what what does your wife say bro cuz you're married man you're surrounded by all these girls like you know I mean I'm going to worry about the women yeah is minimal to the money worry about the money more than anything so so a woman doesn't like give you grief when you come home I yeah you get you get grief all the time if you in a relationship no matter what you do if you had a job on Wall Street you get home you're going to get grief no around it you heard yeah there's women everywhere unless you work in the LGBT Club then you know I mean even there you still going to go home and get like it's no way around it you're going to get you know I mean like yeah so you've never had like been home and you had to explain like yo no man I was just doing music video it's just work like I don't know that good you going to explain yourself in every relationship and things like that I got a good woman at home who understands a job I have and things like that so for the most part but for the most part I'm a very responsible respectable person when when I'm in the streets and when I do have to interact with females and things like that yeah anyway H ladies and gentlemen welcome to another special edition of podcasting chill so CU yeah I am here we're chilling with the [ __ ] Legend Kings of Harlem please make some noise for Jim Jones Jim I gotta say bro I gotta say bro I'm going to be honest with you when I find that your name was GMO geloo gelo I'm like I'm like Jim Jones losing some G points here man what the [ __ ] is that I'm Puerto Rican and a rubian my pops is Puerto Rican the word gelo means William in English is a Spanish Spanish name cuz you know what I was thinking I was thinking that guy who does the show late night you know the short guy who does like the interviews with um this late night comedian man what are the late night shows oh man not uh bad with these oh gosh the late night guy bro uhri or something not Corin O'Brien no not Trevor Noah the other American guy man like uh old new no he's like jimm Kimel Jimmy Kimel jimy he's got that he's got that short guy his name is julo oh I don't I don't I don't got got me messed up I don't even really watch TV like that bro okay I'll be out chasing the money I ain't even got time to do that and if and if I do got some time I'm trying to get a little bit of rest or I'm thinking about money [ __ ] is crucial out here right now you better get to your dollar a lot of [ __ ] about to happen and if you ain't got no coins boy you going to be [ __ ] up you ever been to uh Puerto Rico yeah I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times yeah but business not for the Heritage part of it so like you don't know where like your your your parents were at Familiar of the place where my father's from but I never really got to do the whole go to give with my family understand the roots understand you know I mean like I didn't get to get to that part of it but I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times you find like that's important like to know you it's definitely important I had this um I did an interview not too long ago about um how important the roots are and get to know where my family from know I mean so we'll start to do that pretty soon so so so your dad you know you know your dad right yeah he's passed away oh okay God bless rest in peace what happened to him he passed away yeah like was it um medical thing or yeah natural causes oh damn like when you young or um maybe when I was uh 23 24 oh damn bro SED to hear that man maybe 26 right before my son passed right before my God bless right before my son Bor bro but you like 47 right now I look good for 47y old man no homo you know what I mean thank you very much like what was what's keeping you looking so good is it the yoga yeah a lot of yoga a lot of Pilates I stay in shape um I'm very uh very big on Fitness um work out like five six times a week um it's one of the best ways to stay young and have better chances of living a long life is that why you do it or maybe there's other purpose like you know a lot of people are in gym for their mental health I mean it's very it's very it's very therapeutic I will say that but my main goal is to look good of course but to give me better chances of living forever bro so how you got into rap um I don't know correct me if I'm wrong right but you used to skip church and go to the train station to to rap like no I never skipped Church to go on the train station and rap I skipped Church to go to the train station and go play video games and run the streets and do everything a bad little kid did from the streets of hollow when we was like S8 and n and things like that I don't know if you know about anything about the subway system in New York but that's the pathway system that get you to all five burrows and we definitely was on the subway which maybe we shouldn't have been but we was a little uh loose um for me rapping actually rapping didn't start later on in life to actually uh C and um they I got a deal and things like that and that was the first time me myself really thought about actually raing cuz I'll be honest with you like um dipet I don't really know much about dipet however I know about you guys individually like Cameron old boy like one of my favorite songs uh jul sna had hear that that was Cameron and Jules and jwes he both was on he both old boy and heon yeah why don't you jump on those tracks man those tracks are massive they was already done I was there for the making of both of them incredible tracks yeah and then how did dipit start start like how did you guys start the whole movement um organically kiss him Harem gr up together um talented kids Cam and Mason BL sh was they already was doing music um Everybody gradu graduated high school I didn't get to go to college they went to college they got kicked out they got kicked out they come moved in with me from that that was a uh foundation for them to D into the music you've been in the game for like 20 30 odd years right been in the game for since 1997 how would you describe the different eras of like um hip-hop right especially now cuz um obviously we all know about the Kendrick Lamar song they're not like us but I didn't know how big it was until I landed in in in America and it's like it's like a movement the video yeah it's like huge it's massive bro yeah it's a big record Kendrick did that shout out to Kendrick shout out to my boy Drake but what do you think about like the evolution of hip-hop in all the different areas you've been a part of what do you mean what do I think about it it's a great thing to be a part of something that um you could only dream of everybody doesn't get a chance to be in this game um I've been fortunate enough to be here for so many genres and errors and seen so many people come and go I've watched the smallest artist to the biggest artist who you thow will be here forever and going um I got stories for days I can tell you about um how I feel about it I feel great I feel blessed you know what I mean I feel lucky this [ __ ] don't it's not promised and for me to still be here is definitely a blessing so in the 90s what was the vibe like man like like what in the 90s as far as what in hip-hop yeah it was it was different um 90s was a great era um one of my favorite errors um that was the era we first first came outside um started to get out deal uh very aggressive era uh no social media um cell phones were just being born um everything that you seen you was something that you could grab on to um artists had to go to the towns we couldn't just get on your phone and music you had to go get you couldn't just have access to it so it was a it was it it was a hunt um you had to touch the Tails kiss babies do radio everything like it was just a different ER but who was around like during that time when you who was around like Tupac was did you like meet Tupac Tupac I didn't get to meet Tupac um Tupac passed away what 95 was that yeah right in big in '97 um no I got to see Tupac do a few times in Harlem um that was dope but um not Tupac passed away before we got to get in the record game but I've seen a lot of a lot of artists in my time from a young age to old age we were partying in clubs as teenagers before we even got a record deal and things like that like we were in clubs since high school and [ __ ] like that so any interactions with Big L he was from Harlem right yeah shouts to Big Al Big Al was definitely from Harlem um 139th NFL Big L um I was one of the Cam's uh close friends um actually put cam on a dope record that started to give uh Cam and bloodshed and and her mcgree her was already popping too but guy gave them some notice when it came to R so when you come out like who's who's popping at that time is it git is it mop D it's way before G when we came out I was like Eminem just dropped oh [ __ ] this is Slim Shady not M like Slim Shady I I remember that that was like cam had dropped and Eminem had dropped DMX had dropped Nori had dropped um Big Pun had dropped lud Chris Luda had just started coming out um Nelly Nelly down down baby yeah shouts to coola love um yeah that type of error shouts to shouts to Fat Joe shouts to Buster they was already in it uh Nas was already in it Jay start going crazy that's when he just started taking over with the 1 million 2 million 3 million 4 um yeah very competitive very edgy um lot of the big dogs um had real roots in the streets um especially in the streets of New York so that put that put a real Mystique on everything when it came to the music um all the events with topnotch um it just was a different feel man it was a heavy heavy dope boy era um this was before the drug dealers wanted to be Rappers that's when the rappers wanted to be drug dealers you know what I mean and and that Arrow was was a very dope high impact trenel and Russian it was a was a great error bro I saw an interview you did correct me if I'm wrong I might be paraphrasing but you mentioned a place called the tunnel or something where everybody would be and you guys were [ __ ] [ __ ] in the bathrooms please please describe that manest cuz a place like that couldn't exist right now bro with all this woke [ __ ] I mean yeah and the cancel cult I would say it was probably the greatest Club The Hip hopers have seen and it was during the 90s era it was the Golden Era um in New York they got you had stories about like Studio 54 in that era when everybody used all the biggest of big used to go to Studio 54 well the tunnel was what Studio 54 was to that era to our era and it didn't make so many people and nationalities and genres and just everybody was like a big pumbo all for the sake of the culture you had some of the flyest models to some of the biggest drug dealers biggest gang bangers I mean every former elicit street life you could think of was in the spot along with the biggest artists and rappers and actors and models that you could find into all athletes um it would definitely like that um and was this like per invite or just like anybody could Rock up there nah you couldn't just rock up there for this is '90s entry was like $100 first of all $100 for a club that was the first time we ever heard of it and that was a lot of money back then especially we probably started in '94 going there teenager so $100 was sto a lot of money in New York at the time sneakers wasn't even costing $100 um to get in the club you definitely had to be connected to know somebody or you had to wait on a long line that usually was a block long um they had like an Express line you could pay $100 to get on Express line that'll get you to the door quicker and then you pay your entry fee um streets was blocked off you was a big dog you was able to bring your cars down there I was able to bring like four five of them if I wanted to um yeah the club was just it was different man pull up to the door security they taking people's shoes off they searching your jacket twisting people inside out like they about to go on the Rikers Island I got to I gave security High files I never took my shoes off and not since high school I when we used go in high school we used to get our shoes taken off and things like that make you feel like you going to the cental bookings and [ __ ] like that so what gave you that clout that allowed you to bring four cars in when nobody or you had to be a big dog to bring four cars in when you could just give them a high five instead of removing your shoes and you're young by then like what gives you that CL I was a big dog since a small pup bro J yeah man what gave you those you know credentials at such a young age to suppos all these people cuz Dr Tre was there yeah you putting in four cars not removing shoes I was a good Lord Biden citizen everybody love Jim Jones even even the girls like would you just rock up they say let's go to the bathroom that's it yeah now that well yeah there was a lot of that going on they had a uh the layout was different first of all the club was a block long a whole city block um wow there was like three other four other clubs within the club or spots that look like clubs um the main floor was humongously big the DJ was like a a lifeguard Tower in the middle of the club um you go upstairs they had a VR big V PE upstairs and then go through a door it open up to the bathroom the bathroom was like a unisex Club [ __ ] had a big ass bar in the middle of the bathroom uh bunch of stalls lined up um that [ __ ] was like a hotel inside Lions cocaine everything yeah they was going down a lot of sex was going down there a lot of a lot of drugs was going down in there um yeah the tunnel was definitely uh a landmark to New York City when it comes to the clubs I I definitely um I always think about that club um it did a lot for me in my life um it gave me a lot of imagination when it came to to the culture and the things I was seeing from a young age as to where I want to be and the direction I want to go in yeah we was going there since high school so when you seeing people like Mike Tyson and all these people coming in big cheer on and just having their way as a kid go out got to go to school the next morning you you in school thinking about that [ __ ] like w man this school [ __ ] [ __ ] this school [ __ ] I need some money and I need to go to the tunnel that's all I want to [ __ ] do that's wild man now can you imagine because we in sa right we're looking at all the videos that you guys are pulling out there like we're looking at this lifestyle and then you F Track to 2024 right M and the P didy thing breaks out right I mean i' rather not even to get into that yeah just don't I rather the do I don't you know I mean like it's not it's not my business oh I mean like this you heard God bless it's too much n yeah and it's not me to have an opinion on certain things cuz I ain't perfect I've been through my own [ __ ] in life and I see a lot of people that have even this doing too much just know that I ain't perfect so I choose not to talk on certain [ __ ] that you know what I mean a lot of other people people been talking about I let them keep doing the talk and I got other [ __ ] to work on I'm trying to work on me being a better person yeah I respect I respect that man but were ever part of any gang or like you sounding like the F never hey we don't the F in South Africa man only PS I'm just playing with you yeah I've been affiliated with the bloods in New York City um ENT Tre um yeah so crazy have you ever been to sa like have you ever been to Africa or um I've been to Africa where did you go uh gaban gille damn G to perform there um I went to perform there but uh got some great friends there they actually had ran the country at the time this is before the big yeah yeah overtaking and stuff like that but I had a ball out there I got to go to an island called Pony um that was a dope experience as they took me to the jungles I got to see some of the indigenous people um it was like a a real um life Awakening like and I got to see how also the rich people live out there also like I got to see both sides like that you know what I mean it was it was a great experience I out there for like a week um I haven't been back since but yeah it was dope you never been to South Africa never been to South Africa bro so the reason why I asked that is because like yo bro like American culture has infiltrated South Africa like you can't believe like you know we got people worshiping you guys you know Jim Jones rappers and everything you so we've got rappers who rap just like you and youd say they're like Bloods and Crips but they've never they've never left sa you know cuz that's how influential uh the culture is right but from you when you see or hear that like what do you guys think like do you think is like some [ __ ] like or like leave don't don't follow the gang life you know what I mean oh as far as that is concerned um there's two sides to that this what you do as a gang member that turns it into something that becomes a crime or whatever that end but the Brotherhood part of it is what the most of us joined up for when we coming up in the hood and need that Brotherhood lean on somebody is that type of camaraderie that pretty much stood for and there's a lot of other great attributes that comes with affiliation or you becoming a part of a gang um it gets twisted up because we all come up in these urban communities and our back is against the wall we don't have no opportunities um it's very dormant uh we on top of each other so naturally testosterone testosterone wins in a lot of these situations where these kids find s in bad situations and for that I would tell people to kind of stay away from this type of life um I don't want to oppose my will we all going to experience what we going to experience but I can't tell you the consequences to this type of Lifestyle could be very dear you heard ethal a lot of people don't get to make it where I made it and Escape that lifestyle that could have put me away or could have put me in the dirt I mean so here as a Living testament to tell you that these consequences are terrible the odds on you making it out of that life in a positive manner are very slim I mean but if you are in that life and you taking it as a Brotherhood and try to uplift your brothers I know there's a lot of people around you that are doing a lot of [ __ ] that that that that that's very crazy you know what I mean if you're a part of that and you got the positive minder then you try to uplift your brother and instill some positivity within them because it's very cold out here so I've always been curious bro like so when that when you you you start getting immersed you know or Affiliated in the gang life how does that affect the conversation at home with your parents like your mom your dad and just the domestic you know Dynamics I a't grow my parents I was a grown man since I was like 15 I made my own money since I was like 16 my grandmother left me in high school man I was raising my Sisters by myself in the projects I hustle every I ever got in my life that's why music saved my life I was so grateful to be able to be next to cam and him getting a deal at such a very young age to be able to still be making money off that [ __ ] right now you were U anr for Warner uh music group yeah I was the director of anr for Warner Music Group um years ago uh shouts to Kevin L shouts to Leo Cohen for giving me the opportunity um great opportunity uh I excelled at it extremely very young with a lot of power but didn't understand what I had at hand um didn't have too many people in my corner that were telling me the things that I should have been doing with that type of position as opposed to some type of weird way be hating you know I mean so that's what happened but as you get older you learn you learn and you move on who did you discover while you were in that position uh I would tell you a story I I know I've helped try s uh they come to tra songs that you know today he's always in he's always in we know why no n but he was a young kid at the time and uh they were actually going to cut him from the label we had a big uh um it's like uh one of them uh some events they be doing not the talent shows the uh well was something like that all the artists had to come perform and then they pretty much didn't know that they was on a Cho and block at the time when I was an executive and and he was one of the artists that they were going to cut and I remember Kevin L specifically ask me yo what we should do with him I'm about to cut him I don't know what to do with him and when I heard him uh singing and I saw him perform I was like this is this is one artist you should keep and did that and now we all tra songs on so many dope ass records is it true you could have signed Drake yeah I had a chance to sign uh I had a chance to do business with Drake um through Allan grum blat um when I was doing business at cotch um it was a different era I didn't understand what Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he show me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah understand everybody going at my guy I understand the hate man the hate is so phenomenal it's just how this game go man this game is so tricky man these [ __ ] just like females in this game we ain't going to get into that man there's a lot of uh but wait wait wait so so with Drake like are you are you seeing him perform like try songs or like you just heard of the guy just a conversation Allan called me about signing a kid let me hear some of his music um and I was like the kid know how to rap but I don't know what to do with him his image is crazy and him couple years later heard him on a Wheezy mixtape going crazy I was like wow this kid is about to go wham inside of this business and he sure did and you're know trying to call Weezy like yo man I gotta get that kid or something n he was already signed a young money and jcole did you miss on jcole as well I could have signed J Cole bro jcole was in the studio with me every day and at that point jcole I he's he remind me of a knockoff Drake and not to say it like that but that's who he sounded like he came to my studio every day rapping to these Drake beats rapping like Drake Cadence like Drake he could rap his ass off yeah you heard yeah but it was already a drake out there he had the Caesar it was different like two lightskinn [ __ ] might not K when raing the same but you never know what you got in front of you man you dig and those are lessons I I've took with me to moving forward when I see artists and and I hate artists I always give them more than just hearing just just I got to I got to I gotta try to capture the whole picture I make sure I just don't you mean so I don't miss nothing else because I've missed a few people and I've helped a few people um gain a lot of success in in my time in this industry whether it been by me having a meeting with them or me having influence on them or you know I mean so you know and there's never like any animosity like Jake Cole or Drake never came up to be like yo you could have signed me look at me now bro I mean me and Drake is cool as [ __ ] um I see J Cole I don't think he I mean I don't think that's no he some [ __ ] he might want to keep to himself not to be like that sh the co he not that type of artist he's not a you I mean yeah you did I look I look at as we can see I want to mention an artist who like I'm really fond of like I think this guy's [ __ ] amazing musically talented everything that he touched like turned to Gold who's that uh kid k bro K Cy yeah yeah did you help him with his career yeah I birth K Cy wow J me how so bro bir them nobody would have know who K Cy was at all if I a jump on this remix record but it wasn't even remix he wasn't even a nobody like I tell a story all the time I had a inter used to work for me said he got some dudes that do videos they would like to do a video for me told them come let me see they work they show me their videos the first video they showed me was of the kid Cy record he's on the top of a roof some simple video the record sound more wavy than the opportunity for them to do a video I'm like well if you'll get me the beat to this record I Remix this record and then y'all can shoot the video to that record wow and that's what they did and then um the radio station ripped the record off of YouTube and start playing it at Hot 97 and K Cy was born bro why do you think especially about kid Cy cuz from him when I listen to music right it wasn't really no no other kid Cy record besides the one that I was on yeah man he's not in they don't play his records where I be at at all not to be funny wow bro and we listen to him like all that day and night you know remember only record I know yeah it's the only record I know unless it's like a pop record that everybody know and I and I'm even not paying attention to it but he don't his records don't get played nowhere that i' be at not like that unless I go into a different farm and that's the type of music they playing in one of these funny clubs that play fist pump music and pop music he's not into like you dig like they don't play his music in the clubs I'll be at maybe in Vegas and [ __ ] like that but that's not like they not pumping this [ __ ] in live they not pumping this [ __ ] in Atlanta they not pumping this [ __ ] down the Stafford room or you know what I mean like they I'm not saying nothing like that but I don't hear it in the strip clubs I don't hear like you know what I mean so but he's a very successful person with some of the greats like Kanye to put him in a position to win and [ __ ] like that and I think he's way more better as an actor than he is a musician and that's just my POS that's just my opinion he did I seen him in the movie uh about the race car [ __ ] where he was F the playe like he got a lot of Charisma and [ __ ] like that on on camera for what I could see and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean bro I mean for you as Jim Jones to to see these kids you're introduced to them by an intern and then to hop onto that song it's something selfless you know to just give these unknown kids an opportunity of sharing a song with you where do you think that selflessness comes from how was that unknown kid I'm still an unknown kid anytime I get an opportunity that's an opportunity I should be able to give to somebody else bro the fact that you could even come to our podcast shout out man yeah man you don't even know us exactly what you're saying yeah know us what's his name I don't it's fine you know remember those kids who who did the video for him anyway you know remember I remember like that kids that got the biggest African podcast I'm definitely going to know like them is my guys right family right there appreciate I really mean that that sincerely and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean I I bump in too many people in my life and been across too many people in my journey to actually remember everybody's name but the face and the cause and I mean BR I want to understand right the first time you came up with the concept For Love and Hip Hop where were you what was happening that um that was something like uh me and Christy she had opportunity to do uh her own reality show um and actually fell through and that kind of she was kind of she wanted to do that I can see she was eager about doing that when it fell through kind you know I mean [ __ ] with her mood and [ __ ] like that so so so so so the initial concept what was it was just Chrissy just showing like what's life the initial concept was about she had her own thing going on about a group of women that was supposed to do a reality show had nothing to do with me yeah that [ __ ] fell through she lost that opportunity to end up not going people have been begging me to do reality TV for past couple years at the time and I and you reality TV gold man I refused to do it yeah and then when that happened I was like all right I got I'll do this for you and we'll make it about you and females that have to that are involved with artist such as myself and show what the relationship side is when you're dealing with a high-profile artist and you know what I mean how so that's how that started bro and that thing became a monster super super monster like it's still big till this day bro 100% so do you have like uh ownership in that we we were link a all that you know at that time when maybe the second season we just in a position where we refuse to compromise our dignity for anyone or any dollar and sometimes it be like that you know what I mean um but ain't no stress off my back T my hat to him you no but but but we got to talk about that because you see like this podcast um it's blackowned right it's just me and a couple of other people that are involved in the podcast right and we're always striving for ownership so a lot of um Brands and investors have come to try to buy the podcast and we say know cuz like we believe in ownership and telling the story the way we want to tell it right so what went wrong in that because as a hustler I believe like that's your also end goal MH um it wasn't something that I was just a lot of different layers and [ __ ] like that and I was too worried about doing other things and we had the opportunity to gain all ownership 50% of the whole TV show and all that but it still wasn't worth GE bro that's insane you just let go like that yeah bro it's your brain child bro there is no Love and& Hip Hop without you bro I still got a brain you heard yeah those are for people that don't have a brain that lack creativity people that steal things from you lack what you don't have remember that yeah whether it's money whether it's creativity whatever it is they lack what you don't have ultimately they steal from you you heard I mean we didn't even know C beef if it wasn't for Love and& Hip Hop right yeah yeah yeah definitely yeah bro you gave birth to so many many people man like VI their careers that's the god in me that's why I'm always going to be good yeah she man so any other shows that you're working on like in the pipeline that you want to do I was telling you I working on um a late night show a late night um a late night variety show live in studio audience hopefully we'll be filming in about 40 to 60 days um beautiful concept I do I do believe people going enjoy the show um like I was saying I can't do um a podcast is too personal for me and [ __ ] like that and me watching these podcasts um dealing with these artists me myself don't have the temperament for it you know what I mean um I [ __ ] I T my hat to y'all to have to deal with artists such as myself cuz you never know what type of mood they going to come in you know what I me some of these artists have a air to them where they feel like they better than most and they would never sit and have tea with the with the maintenance guy you heard me myself me going to maintenance guy going to smoke blunts before I get on stage [Music] I live my life and and and currently uh before we let you go man what do you think about the state of hip-hop cuz like statistically numbers wise it's not looking good man e beats has played all over New York now there's now the pianos this is this is what they want you to do this is how to get us to go against each other it's all under the same culture umbrella it's afro music ref I'm a piano I'm a piano explain that what do you mean by that bro yeah R&B what do you mean by that ultimately it's all from under the same origin and creativity of the same person from the same colors is all our thing n but let's be honest Jimmy hip-hop hasn't involved bro when I was listening to Eminem what do you want mean what do you mean hip-hop hasn't evolved you guys are still rapping about the same stuff it don't you you missing the point of what hip-hop is yeah hip-hop has evolved to a point that you can be the music genres that you're told them about can be noticed you think that if there was a hip hop that I'm a piano would be noticed or afro Beach would be noticed think about that and not to take nothing away from y because you always have culture and yes that music might be big within the continent of Africa yeah right but to cross over to American Fame and commercialism you don't think that the hip-hop culture played a big part in that that's that that's a different argument now you want to have a different argument I'm telling you the semantics of where we going with this you dig like you talking about uh the the hip hop music is damn percentage that's how they want us to think when it's really not cuz we all uplifting each other you heard you think that the country music that's going on in the black people winning is not because of the hip-hop culture no no no I think no one is disputing that however so then when you say hip-hop numbers are down and damn for who no I'm talking about I know what you're talking about but damn for who tell me who it's down for because I'm still making the money I make yeah I do believe there's still a lot of artist that's making a shitload of money that they make I don't think it went down for them yeah you know what I mean but I understand what you're talking about they say the numbers and then rock and roll genre might be up like I don't really you heard like that's I'm into this business you heard and it's always up for us you heard cuz this is a business we make money out of nothing it's never a downside to this okay and and that's why I'm saying I think we're having two different conversations here cuz the conversation I'm having is I'm having I'm having right is that in as much as he's saying yeah the numbers are down because they orchestrated and whatever I get that right but also that's why I asked do you think Hip-hop has evolved cuz I grew up on hip-hop right and the same things um quote unquote you guys were rapping about in the '90s how can hipop how can hip hop evolved in the same thing that Africa been Africa been going on since the '90s aren't y going still going through the same thing we are huh we are so how could the music evolve when the music ref the time ah okay get you real stories what you want us to rap about [ __ ] that that we don't have ah we talk about [ __ ] we dream about all the time that's the good The Good Life the colorin the Ros we talk about but the truth is how the music going to change when our position hasn't changed when we still going through the same [ __ ] we've been going through okay and y'all being from Africa should know that more than we know that yeah that's facts that's fact go about that own Cod yeah yeah yeah yeah you know are bro that's a valid fact but how do you feel man like you've come from an era where you guys when what you you said in your raps I mean evolved as far as dition as far as what we rap about cuz we still stuck in the same place but as a business it has evolved to one of big time yeah yeah biggest big time money making machines you can attach yourself to this made some of the richest individuals whether you're the rapper the lawyer the executive like that's true you know what I mean the supply chain but then I think that's why you know when you get the likes of a wz coming out and Kendrick Lamar they stand out like a sore thumb because like they are rapping about but that's what music is about to stand out for those who that want to look like everybody they don't get nowhere why you think Dip set was so successful sucessful yeah because we stood out on purpose we don't want to look like or H or sound like no one else m we want yall to above all see us when we walk in the building and hear us when we get on that [ __ ] mic you heard why would you guys the diplomats I never like where did that come from the diplomats the name the diplomats yeah we diplomats oh ah okay that sounded cool no we diplomats we are Harlem diplomats and we take it as that you heard we go to the Embassy when we land in countries you heard all right okay okay okay I I sort of get that bro so in the business and how you still making money right now like from music just like how is it royalties damn you asking a lot of questions bro no I want to know bro I'm so I've got so many questions I want to ask you bro I'll tell you this music is supposed to be used so you can make as much ancillary dollars as you can because the music ain't promised everybody 15 minutes of fame ranges from a small 15 minutes of fame to a run like we having within that minute the 15 minutes the fame you better do a lot of other things to secure your bag because music is not going to be thing you be able to get paid off forever unless you're the DRS and the J that's not even 1% that's you know what I mean so you think about that so you better have some hustle you better learn how to you better have some business sense you better put your credit in order you better do a few things to secure you if you are artist [ __ ] leverage powerful penda yeah man how do you feel man when these kids these days wrap up about you know trying to act tough and rap about stuff they never done like you guys red about stuff you lived I mean I do believe a lot of these kids are going through a lot of [ __ ] that we went through and then a lot of the kids are talking about [ __ ] that they see but most of the kids are all growing up in the same community that all of that [ __ ] is going on so who tells them they don't have the right to talk about [ __ ] that they're not doing when that's still [ __ ] that they're seeing oh sure Ah that's powerful but the problem I have a problem when they rapping like they did it but they just R from somebody else's Vantage Point understand that but most of these artists that you've seen in the game some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I pretty firm in his in in his music that I'm a believer that he did some of that [ __ ] he can talk about just me I don't know you possibilities are possibilities but some things just seem correct you know mean I can't tell you for sure cuz it is music you know what I mean but some things seem correct [ __ ] man bro you got to come out to man you got to you know we haven't had a proper uh hip-hop concert in sa like since 50 N since you are come on back to the city does concerts man ah those are for old people empd the bigest artist in South Africa right now Hip-Hop Hip-Hop uh there's a guy called nastyc but nesty came here he doesn't know know you f poopa who's that nah F poopa Nigerian West African artist massive he used to pop not now for real still massive bigger than like ber boyo still it's different type of music oh stadiums is 50 60,000 people like what is this following this gu what's his name f poop F poop I don't know him bro he's from Nigeria yeah yeah yeah yeah Nigerian Prett pretty big yeah humongous bro how big was was 50 Cent bro like during his Reign man like how big was 50 Cent [ __ ] retardedly big it wasn't nothing bigger than him was Drake before Drake was dring he was oh [ __ ] he did it like it was like 50 was on a run that he never even touched the club bro like [ __ ] never seen him in the club he only did Arenas I never knew too many artist that just did that you dig like the [ __ ] was super massive every [ __ ] Rec he came out with was was going platinum and I'm just telling you the facts you heard and I always got to speak factual no matter how I feel about a person the [ __ ] was on top Super on top it was no way to knock him off his d i remember Jay-Z dropped the diss track on you did you guys resolve that beef I think you were not happy with him as the president of De jam oh man um we never really had a beef um we had some feuds back and forth through the situations that were going on over other people um and me being who I am I had to hold my ground um but to know that he actually talked about me in multiple of his records mean that I was pretty big in his eyes you dig true true cuz I didn't hear him talk about too many people in his career and if he did talk you talk about you on the record that meant something you know what I mean and I was then so for me that I I I took that like what it was like you dig like yeah J doesn't respond to take the time out to say my name you heard if I'm if I'm not that big of a deal to you you would never ever a am I am I right talk about a person you heard true it's it's a form of respect and ackowledge 100% am I right in saying a lot of [ __ ] are scared of Jay-Z bro cuz we interviewed Dam Ian I don't I don't know I'm not a lot of [ __ ] you heard I'm a man so I couldn't I I couldn't tell you that you heard I ain't scared to nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that that that dentist yeah the dentist got me there you heard you can walk in you could walk we about to fight right now you a dentist walk in you got it you got it like you got it bow down you got it I don't want no smoke let me get out of here M fact word Jimmy before you go man uh what beefs did you have so you had something beef with Jay-Z right no man I just told you we had some feuds stemming from that's beef bro stemming from other things that going on um my problem like it was all part of Us coming up in the game and things were happening we were signing a Rockefeller cam was sign a Rockefeller actually then we got opportunity to Diplomat records um the split between uh Jay and Dame came um artist took sides some took the J side some took the the Dame side which side were you on we was on the Dame side OB Dash yeah Dame Dash that's do you think Dame Dash is misunderstood bro huh you think Dame Dash is misunderstood um too smart for his own good I get that yeah if you had the opportunity again you sometimes being the smartest person in the room could be held against you especially when you want everybody to know that you're the smartest person in the room yeah yeah yeah and I get given a second chance would you still side with Dam never you wouldn't never whoa I never signed a d at all that was no no no like sided with him took his side oh give a second chance I wouldn't have sided with none of them I would we would haveed our [ __ ] business but you learned that with age yeah you heard we had no business butting into that because it wasn't a street beef and this wasn't some [ __ ] that had to do with us ultimately we were holding our [ __ ] down and [ __ ] like that but business-wise if we would if we knew what we knew now we would let them get into that they self y'all can handle that because we got records to put out and music to make and we got our own record label to run you dig and this my hinder what we got going on by us taking sides and that's why I tell people now even when people seeing all the Diplomat [ __ ] like y bro don't don't get in to taking sides with me and my bro because you never know how that might end up and if it end up to a point where we do figure out our situation then I'm looking at you funny now me and you got forever you heard you dig and there are plenty of people that did that and plenty people that didn't and plenty people that showed the same amount of love that he showed to me that it showed to cam when we were going through our imaginary situations and [ __ ] like that cuz it's all imaginary when you know you can figure figure it out now it's a saying that like don't just be in people's business when especially when they've beef and take sides cuz and I I had to learn that a lot I had took me a long time to learn that because of how we come up in the Cod that they supposedly treat us in teach us in the street and [ __ ] like that but sometimes that's not the smallest thing that we can do and then uh push a t did you ever beef with him nah that was some [ __ ] that we was on record um he did some [ __ ] I did some [ __ ] you dig that was it I never followed that I didn't even know did you know there's a pusher T me I ain't got no just know I don't know I know you're from I know you're from Africa and [ __ ] like that but people don't play with me yeah for real and I don't I don't play with people this ain't no playground you heard this is the street it's two ways don't get caught up in a yellow line it's going to be hard to cross bro yeah you heard no I don't trust me I'm from Africa but I saw what happened at the airport so that [ __ ] escalated yeah [ __ ] that was self-defense man God yo bro it looked like that guy was just messing with you bro I wish that could have never happened cuz I was trying to avoid that by all cause but [ __ ] happened sometime man you dig and definitely not not going to allow anybody do anything to me at all bro when I saw that video right like I don't know I just met you today right but I saw when you lifted that guy from the escalator threw him down he literally just went on survival mode bro like it's like there was a button that you switched on and you just like I don't [ __ ] care but yeah yeah no I mean no that's a button that I choose not to push you heard yeah exactly like you can go there quickly I choose to show restraint for a lot of reasons in my life and sometimes it's hard to you dig but where I'm at in life right now I choose positivity or all the other things that come out my way because I know how it is to be negative I was once that negative person that was very aggressive and ready to do something to to you over the minimal alistic of things and [ __ ] like that so I'm blessed to be here to try to be able to show restraint and so so the guy so the guy at the airport you guys on the same plane yeah we on the same plane so you don't have a private jet no I don't have a private jet I'm not a rich man come on Jimmy you made so much money over the years but anyway so you're in the plane what's he what's this guy saying to you like um I don't know man just [ __ ] happens I know just the started from the plane just know that what you see happen on so it starts on the plane you restrain yourself you're like all right cool my dog say whatever you want to say yeah when he gets to the airport I mean the escalator that's when I think he starts hitting you or something right yeah something like that he tried to do something like that and that's what we see man but like I said this is not something that I want to glorify it's not you think he knows who you are um if if he didn't he know now no I'm I'm sorry see sorry cuz some people just provoke I believe he was he was trolling a little bit and things like that which is cool you I mean I'm if if you in New York not time 10 you do know who I am so you know I believe it was a bit of that but God bless man hopefully that they all right hopefully the old man um cool you dig like are you spiritual cuz you mentioned God a lot man yeah I'm very spiritual very spiritual very spiritual I've been my whole family is spiritual and what does that mean in an American sense cuz um us as African for me it means a lot of different things um I was told what the church was as a young age as they drag you to church every Sunday your grandmother your moms and your family and things like that and you really don't understand what that is from that young but as you get older and you go through certain things and you make it through certain things you understand that there is a God and everybody has a relationship with their God different and sometimes going to church doesn't mean that you love your God any less or he loves you any less you dig and you say spiritual I'm very spiritual I say my prayers as much as I can sometime two three four times in a day you dig man doesn't take away from what I do and who I am because I'm still in the line for everything else everybody is in but I know every day that I'm able to wake up and every day I'm able to make a dollar and every day I'm able to keep living the life that I am I should be thankful you heard cuz that's not just me that's a higher vibration that's definitely a God you dig and I'm well aware that I've escaped many things in life that Lord knows I should not be here but then again I should be here cuz he put here for a reason he gives his toughest battles to his strongest people what the Bible say you heard and I've made it through some very tough battles which are minimal to some of the people that I had next to me in their battles you know what I mean so it's like we all got to figure it out Jim Jones thank you so much man and thanks to God for bringing you here man definitely I appreciate for making time for us bro thank you man we appreciate you tired when you got you I appreciate the fact that you could even make it man got any last question yeah man bro you said you've gone through some tough battles and you mentioned how you lost your dad at like 26 but also that you you pretty much raised yourself from the age of 15 you know from that relationship or lack of it like has it affected how you father your children 100% this made me the best father I could be but me my relationship with my father was always a great one even though he wasn't there because every day he wasn't I love them even more I wasn't one of them kids that was bitter you dig I understand that everybody went through something and at that age what he was going through there was a lot of drug addiction and I knew that from a very young age I understood what drugs was and how they were tearing up my family I never held that against my father and I was just blessed able to get back with him before he passed away so he could see that his son was making something out of himself at that time I was already signed to her uh we think we just got the Rockefeller deal so it was a very big deal for me to be able to get back with my father to show him that me somebody that you should be proud of and I know him looking down right now got be like damn I did that so you know and that's how I feel but then in turn TR here my son I don't you know I mean like I just you know mean I pride myself on making sure that I I turned my son into somebody that was way better than I could ever be you oh man yeah that's my guy shout out to you man is your son still wearing Crocs to you br he's a Croc guy you heard yeah Crocs for Life bro Crocs for Life jumping out the beam with a fresh paer Crocs on I don't want to stand him Jimmy before you go your top five rappers all time my top five rappers of all you got to give us your top five bro yeah Tupac definitely Jay-Z Drake um Drake he not like us by default of course um rock cam no Eminem No No whoa not even big you from NY and not to take nothing away from him he's extremely nice it's retardedly nice when it comes to rap but I listen to artists that kind of you know I mean do something for the life that I live and kind of what I've been through and most of these artist or artist that I'm talking about people that you know what I mean like [ __ ] better stop hating on my boy Drake all of a sudden all this Drake land I get it I get it you ain't like us let's not do that let's not forget the 15 years he been spanking [ __ ] around this [ __ ] all all all over this [ __ ] all the alley he been giving most of these artists that are now seeming to be turning on them let's you know let's not some of them gave him their best hits let's not forget the big picture here and [ __ ] like but what the hip-hop culture and this game is built on competition so I yeah but what is he with it you heard you better put your best foot forward but what has Drake given back to the culture oh that you so love here we go um what is he giving back to the culture I seen him take a lot of people on tour and turn them even richer than they already was I I seen him give a lot of people hits that they would have never had if he wouldn't have got on a record things for the culture that wouldn't have happened in turn records that we would have never knew about him to record that the culture love and things like that I mean he's not from here Canada from the hood I don't believe he owes America too much but the monster that give back to where he's from maybe we should ask about what has he done in Canada giving back to his community as opposed to what he giving back to the culture of the United States when this is not where he's from and I think that's the Divide right there now if we talk about what he's done in Canada and if it's not up to par then maybe we can talk about oh you dig but that's I think that's for the people of Canada you dig like yeah cuz but it's the people of America in the hood who made him of course you heard about but that he didn't grw up in America he didn't grew up here you heard so if you was an artist from Africa yeah like boy yeah do you think bnab boy has responsibility what do Niger of United stes n I'm taking it back home bro super duper big yes but that's what people then will call a culture vulture cuz you come into a space you know do what the people of that space do benefit from them is is is you understand what we doing like it's bro it's not because he's not take so he's not taking benab boy is Nigerian it's a Nigerian culture that is now popular in America so Drake took an American culture and enriched himself but what he's saying is that he doesn't owe anything to America cuz he's not from yet right okay right yeah I mean [ __ ] he's got no obligation Fair argument he got no obligation Fair argument yeah like he lived if he lived like I don't I don't that's how I see it you heard like that's how I see it you dig but all these [ __ ] we talking about are filthy filthy filthy rich off the opinions of men you heard what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never but what I'm just trying to tell you is how this game is played yeah you heard yeah geez man the more we talk the more they get paid the loser still gets paid too if there is a loser I don't think there's a loser when they all getting Millions off of this [ __ ] I don't think I mean like and I understand end all be all in the whole circle of it but I'm I've been in this [ __ ] for so long I'm miss you can see the politics of really get you to understand of what's really going on and [ __ ] like that this [ __ ] don't pay me a dollar to talk about it yeah hey man how tight you with Joe Bon he calls us those African guys with numbers oh yeah yeah yeah Jo this my guy buts what's up man he cool yeah he's an instigator definely know how to get under people's skin yeah I've known Joan for so long [ __ ] like that um I'm proud of him put himself in his position a whole new Lane to make a shitload of money um where it stem from the culture this what I'm talking about all the ancillary things that you need to get going on if are a artist of some type of success you got to use that to get where you want look at Joe used his startom and rap no matter what it was to able to finesse a whole new Lane of podcasting that true he's pretty big in damn near one of the forefathers of it from our culture right y'all started before him or after him we started after him but now we have more numbers than him hey doesn't matter no numbers do matter I mean no J and get num I'm cool with that but you won't be never be the considered the forefather of this whole no no no no no no no you dig 100% yeah it's Jo Joan numbers is cool I'm cool with that you get paid and I know what's a race you might be number one you heard yeah yeah but you still never be the forefather always going to have that under him like I've created this Lane for your how I feel about Ling hip hop yeah of course I got that under my belt that's mine y can never say that was yours at all yeah okay how much money you made off of it and [ __ ] like that at the end of the day you it's mine you heard Still My still mine so we always ask anybody any guest that we get on the show in closing what do you want to be remembered as man when it's all said and done I want I want to be remembered I want I want them to know that I gave more than I took because I was able to take a lot in my time amen just like that sh hey man I wish you put me on love and& hip-hop bro they got the African love of Hip Hop they got Jamaican love of Hip Hop they got they got any type of Love of Hip Hop we need the South African love of Hip Hop thanks Jim man shout out thank you bro I appreciate you man thank you we appreciate podcast and chill we out of here man boom peace welcome to Black excellenc do not fear for if you do just sip on some Grand and if you still do ask ourselves what would M [Music] do when they ask you do not fear for if you do just say an TV this is the the medicine of censorship this is the pill which one is that one podcast and chill	talk and I got other [ __ ] to work on I'm trying to work on me being a better person yeah I respect I respect that man but were ever part of any gang or like you sounding like the F never hey we don't the F in South Africa man only PS I'm just playing with you yeah I've been affiliated with the bloods in New York City um ENT Tre um yeah so crazy have you ever been to sa like have you ever been to Africa or um I've been to Africa where did you go uh gaban gille damn G to perform there um I went to perform there but uh got some great friends there they actually had ran the country at the time this is before the big yeah yeah overtaking and stuff like that but I had a ball out there I got to go to an island called Pony um that was a dope experience as they took me to the jungles I got to see some of the indigenous people um it was like a a real um life Awakening like and I got to see how also the rich people live out there also like I got to see both sides like that you know what I mean it was it was a great experience I out there for like a week um I haven't been back since but yeah it was dope you never been to South Africa	8	6	4	talk and I got other [ __ ] to work on I'm trying to work on me being a better person yeah I respect I respect that man but were ever part of any gang or like you sounding like the F never hey we don't the F in South Africa man only PS I'm just playing with you	um I've been to Africa where did you go uh gaban gille damn G to perform there um I went to perform there but uh got some great friends there they actually had ran the country at the time this is before the big yeah yeah overtaking and stuff like that but I had a ball out there I got to go to an island called Pony um that was a dope experience as they took me to the jungles I got to see some of the indigenous people um it was like a a real um life Awakening like and I got to see how also the rich people live out there also like I got to see both sides like that you know what I mean it was it was a great experience I out there for like a week um I haven't been back since but yeah it was dope you never been to South Africa	4,-1,6	8,5,7	4	-1	6	8	5	7
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr730VmL-lk	4,054	rr730VmL-lk	2024-06-27 00:00:00	like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano no well Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he showed me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah just understand everybody going there my guy I understand the hate exactly what you're saying yeah bro what's his name I don't it's fine you remember those some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I ain't scared of nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that the dentist yeah dentist got me there what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never [Music] [Music] yo Jimmy you do not look like you want to be here bro like someone forced you to be it's like you have to do that par they're the biggest podcast in Africa you have to be there I never look like I want to be nowhere man you got to part of me but congratulations to yall having the biggest podcast in Africa that that that's very big Africa being one of the biggest continents in the world a lot of people over there shut up man why you so tired bro crazy weekend I've been working all weekend shows different states traveling Planes Trains automobiles you know how I be a little bit too much partying yeah road kill it's tough but what's up how y'all feeling I'm good bro I literally saw um I saw your video uh yesterday for your new single the one you shot in Miami two turn temp yeah yeah how you feel about it bro that [ __ ] is lit man looks like our Vibe bro cuz we've been to Miami myself and and my partner but we never like experienced the Miami night life we were playing in Florida yeah we're DJing in Florida but two South Africans like the diaspora then West Palm Beach as well yeah DJ also yeah like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano what it's a genre it's called a piano no no cuz I'm a piano even you heard like you saw he did the whole Keys thing it has nothing to do with the piano that's where it started but has nothing to do with it these days when when I met charlot man he said the exact same thing he's like oh so you're a podcaster I'm like yeah and then you DJs I'm like no I play I'm a Pian like you're a Pianist man you one talented [ __ ] n it's a genre of music man what kind of genre is that like it's like slowed down house music with a lot of s that African influence that's the only way I can describe it so it's a it's a mix of a marriage house yeah a marriage of house music which originated here at Chicago and stuff and then we slowed it down created a sub genre called guo where guys were sort of rapping but very minimalist raps called guo then the kids were born like in the 2000s late '90s then created a whole meshup of those two genres and it's called Piano cuz a a lot of Americans think it's um afro beats it's not afro beats yeah a lot of the hence I avoided saying afro beats cuz AFR beats is from Nigeria and amap piano is far from afro beat afro beat borrows from am piano now where is amap piano originated from South Africa from the hoods from the Cassis yeah but when I when I was looking at your video bro uh the only thing in my mind was like bro what's a night like out with Jim Jones CU that [ __ ] look lit there [ __ ] everywhere bro um please please describe a night out in Miami with Jim so let's say we going to Miami right now I mean some nice are better than others but been doing it so long it's kind of like the the bare minimum for us to do in Miami just having fun but it still work at the same time like every every I'm I'm not just going out partying for no reason ni like that was we knew what we was kind of getting into we wanted to film a video so we knew we was going to ramp it up a bit take it to the to the highest form going crazy as we could but that actually happened to fall on a big weekend um and one of my dudes was celebrating so everything kind of happened for a reason but yeah Miami could take you for take you for a few a few trips man like okay so so so me and you we get in the car right I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm in Miami I hate you cuz you got a house there you stay there right yeah I got I got I got cribs there so I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm by the strip you know that Miami strip right yeah yeah yeah I mean see that's the thing about Miami when you come to visit Miami that's where people are know at like the strip and things like that I guess stand by Collins and ocean driveing all that people that live there don't really do the strip like that like you just you dig people congregate usually at night time and all the spots that usually go on down there um okay so we got security obviously you got to roll around with security right um yeah I mean that' be the safest thing for me to do so we get out the cut with security when you get to the bouncers are they letting us in cuz it's Jim Jones or are they checking our IDs cuz they've been checking our IDs just to buy beer here bro Che ID everywhere yeah everywhere yeah no I I don't think I produced my ID in since I was a teenager at clubs but yeah you won't need your ID when you with me so we walking in right yeah we going to get in oh do we have a section do we they going to give us a section VIP yeah they going to give us a section we going to get some bottles and let the night ensue got this thing called Power Hour you go to the club maybe like 2:45 to 3:45 in and out no sweat so what's the what's the purpose of that exercise the Power Hour yeah like why would you be in the cloud for an hour why would I be in a club for 4 hours it's Fu I mean I've been part I've been partying since I've been 14 I've been making money to party since I've been 18 I'm kind of burnt out so at this point I try to wait till the club is at the most popping or lest moment which is usually that hour right there and I get to enjoy everything that happened tonight and leave out of there and not be all burnt out what what does your wife say bro cuz you're married man you're surrounded by all these girls like you know I mean I'm going to worry about the women yeah is minimal to the money worry about the money more than anything so so a woman doesn't like give you grief when you come home I yeah you get you get grief all the time if you in a relationship no matter what you do if you had a job on Wall Street you get home you're going to get grief no around it you heard yeah there's women everywhere unless you work in the LGBT Club then you know I mean even there you still going to go home and get like it's no way around it you're going to get you know I mean like yeah so you've never had like been home and you had to explain like yo no man I was just doing music video it's just work like I don't know that good you going to explain yourself in every relationship and things like that I got a good woman at home who understands a job I have and things like that so for the most part but for the most part I'm a very responsible respectable person when when I'm in the streets and when I do have to interact with females and things like that yeah anyway H ladies and gentlemen welcome to another special edition of podcasting chill so CU yeah I am here we're chilling with the [ __ ] Legend Kings of Harlem please make some noise for Jim Jones Jim I gotta say bro I gotta say bro I'm going to be honest with you when I find that your name was GMO geloo gelo I'm like I'm like Jim Jones losing some G points here man what the [ __ ] is that I'm Puerto Rican and a rubian my pops is Puerto Rican the word gelo means William in English is a Spanish Spanish name cuz you know what I was thinking I was thinking that guy who does the show late night you know the short guy who does like the interviews with um this late night comedian man what are the late night shows oh man not uh bad with these oh gosh the late night guy bro uhri or something not Corin O'Brien no not Trevor Noah the other American guy man like uh old new no he's like jimm Kimel Jimmy Kimel jimy he's got that he's got that short guy his name is julo oh I don't I don't I don't got got me messed up I don't even really watch TV like that bro okay I'll be out chasing the money I ain't even got time to do that and if and if I do got some time I'm trying to get a little bit of rest or I'm thinking about money [ __ ] is crucial out here right now you better get to your dollar a lot of [ __ ] about to happen and if you ain't got no coins boy you going to be [ __ ] up you ever been to uh Puerto Rico yeah I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times yeah but business not for the Heritage part of it so like you don't know where like your your your parents were at Familiar of the place where my father's from but I never really got to do the whole go to give with my family understand the roots understand you know I mean like I didn't get to get to that part of it but I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times you find like that's important like to know you it's definitely important I had this um I did an interview not too long ago about um how important the roots are and get to know where my family from know I mean so we'll start to do that pretty soon so so so your dad you know you know your dad right yeah he's passed away oh okay God bless rest in peace what happened to him he passed away yeah like was it um medical thing or yeah natural causes oh damn like when you young or um maybe when I was uh 23 24 oh damn bro SED to hear that man maybe 26 right before my son passed right before my God bless right before my son Bor bro but you like 47 right now I look good for 47y old man no homo you know what I mean thank you very much like what was what's keeping you looking so good is it the yoga yeah a lot of yoga a lot of Pilates I stay in shape um I'm very uh very big on Fitness um work out like five six times a week um it's one of the best ways to stay young and have better chances of living a long life is that why you do it or maybe there's other purpose like you know a lot of people are in gym for their mental health I mean it's very it's very it's very therapeutic I will say that but my main goal is to look good of course but to give me better chances of living forever bro so how you got into rap um I don't know correct me if I'm wrong right but you used to skip church and go to the train station to to rap like no I never skipped Church to go on the train station and rap I skipped Church to go to the train station and go play video games and run the streets and do everything a bad little kid did from the streets of hollow when we was like S8 and n and things like that I don't know if you know about anything about the subway system in New York but that's the pathway system that get you to all five burrows and we definitely was on the subway which maybe we shouldn't have been but we was a little uh loose um for me rapping actually rapping didn't start later on in life to actually uh C and um they I got a deal and things like that and that was the first time me myself really thought about actually raing cuz I'll be honest with you like um dipet I don't really know much about dipet however I know about you guys individually like Cameron old boy like one of my favorite songs uh jul sna had hear that that was Cameron and Jules and jwes he both was on he both old boy and heon yeah why don't you jump on those tracks man those tracks are massive they was already done I was there for the making of both of them incredible tracks yeah and then how did dipit start start like how did you guys start the whole movement um organically kiss him Harem gr up together um talented kids Cam and Mason BL sh was they already was doing music um Everybody gradu graduated high school I didn't get to go to college they went to college they got kicked out they got kicked out they come moved in with me from that that was a uh foundation for them to D into the music you've been in the game for like 20 30 odd years right been in the game for since 1997 how would you describe the different eras of like um hip-hop right especially now cuz um obviously we all know about the Kendrick Lamar song they're not like us but I didn't know how big it was until I landed in in in America and it's like it's like a movement the video yeah it's like huge it's massive bro yeah it's a big record Kendrick did that shout out to Kendrick shout out to my boy Drake but what do you think about like the evolution of hip-hop in all the different areas you've been a part of what do you mean what do I think about it it's a great thing to be a part of something that um you could only dream of everybody doesn't get a chance to be in this game um I've been fortunate enough to be here for so many genres and errors and seen so many people come and go I've watched the smallest artist to the biggest artist who you thow will be here forever and going um I got stories for days I can tell you about um how I feel about it I feel great I feel blessed you know what I mean I feel lucky this [ __ ] don't it's not promised and for me to still be here is definitely a blessing so in the 90s what was the vibe like man like like what in the 90s as far as what in hip-hop yeah it was it was different um 90s was a great era um one of my favorite errors um that was the era we first first came outside um started to get out deal uh very aggressive era uh no social media um cell phones were just being born um everything that you seen you was something that you could grab on to um artists had to go to the towns we couldn't just get on your phone and music you had to go get you couldn't just have access to it so it was a it was it it was a hunt um you had to touch the Tails kiss babies do radio everything like it was just a different ER but who was around like during that time when you who was around like Tupac was did you like meet Tupac Tupac I didn't get to meet Tupac um Tupac passed away what 95 was that yeah right in big in '97 um no I got to see Tupac do a few times in Harlem um that was dope but um not Tupac passed away before we got to get in the record game but I've seen a lot of a lot of artists in my time from a young age to old age we were partying in clubs as teenagers before we even got a record deal and things like that like we were in clubs since high school and [ __ ] like that so any interactions with Big L he was from Harlem right yeah shouts to Big Al Big Al was definitely from Harlem um 139th NFL Big L um I was one of the Cam's uh close friends um actually put cam on a dope record that started to give uh Cam and bloodshed and and her mcgree her was already popping too but guy gave them some notice when it came to R so when you come out like who's who's popping at that time is it git is it mop D it's way before G when we came out I was like Eminem just dropped oh [ __ ] this is Slim Shady not M like Slim Shady I I remember that that was like cam had dropped and Eminem had dropped DMX had dropped Nori had dropped um Big Pun had dropped lud Chris Luda had just started coming out um Nelly Nelly down down baby yeah shouts to coola love um yeah that type of error shouts to shouts to Fat Joe shouts to Buster they was already in it uh Nas was already in it Jay start going crazy that's when he just started taking over with the 1 million 2 million 3 million 4 um yeah very competitive very edgy um lot of the big dogs um had real roots in the streets um especially in the streets of New York so that put that put a real Mystique on everything when it came to the music um all the events with topnotch um it just was a different feel man it was a heavy heavy dope boy era um this was before the drug dealers wanted to be Rappers that's when the rappers wanted to be drug dealers you know what I mean and and that Arrow was was a very dope high impact trenel and Russian it was a was a great error bro I saw an interview you did correct me if I'm wrong I might be paraphrasing but you mentioned a place called the tunnel or something where everybody would be and you guys were [ __ ] [ __ ] in the bathrooms please please describe that manest cuz a place like that couldn't exist right now bro with all this woke [ __ ] I mean yeah and the cancel cult I would say it was probably the greatest Club The Hip hopers have seen and it was during the 90s era it was the Golden Era um in New York they got you had stories about like Studio 54 in that era when everybody used all the biggest of big used to go to Studio 54 well the tunnel was what Studio 54 was to that era to our era and it didn't make so many people and nationalities and genres and just everybody was like a big pumbo all for the sake of the culture you had some of the flyest models to some of the biggest drug dealers biggest gang bangers I mean every former elicit street life you could think of was in the spot along with the biggest artists and rappers and actors and models that you could find into all athletes um it would definitely like that um and was this like per invite or just like anybody could Rock up there nah you couldn't just rock up there for this is '90s entry was like $100 first of all $100 for a club that was the first time we ever heard of it and that was a lot of money back then especially we probably started in '94 going there teenager so $100 was sto a lot of money in New York at the time sneakers wasn't even costing $100 um to get in the club you definitely had to be connected to know somebody or you had to wait on a long line that usually was a block long um they had like an Express line you could pay $100 to get on Express line that'll get you to the door quicker and then you pay your entry fee um streets was blocked off you was a big dog you was able to bring your cars down there I was able to bring like four five of them if I wanted to um yeah the club was just it was different man pull up to the door security they taking people's shoes off they searching your jacket twisting people inside out like they about to go on the Rikers Island I got to I gave security High files I never took my shoes off and not since high school I when we used go in high school we used to get our shoes taken off and things like that make you feel like you going to the cental bookings and [ __ ] like that so what gave you that clout that allowed you to bring four cars in when nobody or you had to be a big dog to bring four cars in when you could just give them a high five instead of removing your shoes and you're young by then like what gives you that CL I was a big dog since a small pup bro J yeah man what gave you those you know credentials at such a young age to suppos all these people cuz Dr Tre was there yeah you putting in four cars not removing shoes I was a good Lord Biden citizen everybody love Jim Jones even even the girls like would you just rock up they say let's go to the bathroom that's it yeah now that well yeah there was a lot of that going on they had a uh the layout was different first of all the club was a block long a whole city block um wow there was like three other four other clubs within the club or spots that look like clubs um the main floor was humongously big the DJ was like a a lifeguard Tower in the middle of the club um you go upstairs they had a VR big V PE upstairs and then go through a door it open up to the bathroom the bathroom was like a unisex Club [ __ ] had a big ass bar in the middle of the bathroom uh bunch of stalls lined up um that [ __ ] was like a hotel inside Lions cocaine everything yeah they was going down a lot of sex was going down there a lot of a lot of drugs was going down in there um yeah the tunnel was definitely uh a landmark to New York City when it comes to the clubs I I definitely um I always think about that club um it did a lot for me in my life um it gave me a lot of imagination when it came to to the culture and the things I was seeing from a young age as to where I want to be and the direction I want to go in yeah we was going there since high school so when you seeing people like Mike Tyson and all these people coming in big cheer on and just having their way as a kid go out got to go to school the next morning you you in school thinking about that [ __ ] like w man this school [ __ ] [ __ ] this school [ __ ] I need some money and I need to go to the tunnel that's all I want to [ __ ] do that's wild man now can you imagine because we in sa right we're looking at all the videos that you guys are pulling out there like we're looking at this lifestyle and then you F Track to 2024 right M and the P didy thing breaks out right I mean i' rather not even to get into that yeah just don't I rather the do I don't you know I mean like it's not it's not my business oh I mean like this you heard God bless it's too much n yeah and it's not me to have an opinion on certain things cuz I ain't perfect I've been through my own [ __ ] in life and I see a lot of people that have even this doing too much just know that I ain't perfect so I choose not to talk on certain [ __ ] that you know what I mean a lot of other people people been talking about I let them keep doing the talk and I got other [ __ ] to work on I'm trying to work on me being a better person yeah I respect I respect that man but were ever part of any gang or like you sounding like the F never hey we don't the F in South Africa man only PS I'm just playing with you yeah I've been affiliated with the bloods in New York City um ENT Tre um yeah so crazy have you ever been to sa like have you ever been to Africa or um I've been to Africa where did you go uh gaban gille damn G to perform there um I went to perform there but uh got some great friends there they actually had ran the country at the time this is before the big yeah yeah overtaking and stuff like that but I had a ball out there I got to go to an island called Pony um that was a dope experience as they took me to the jungles I got to see some of the indigenous people um it was like a a real um life Awakening like and I got to see how also the rich people live out there also like I got to see both sides like that you know what I mean it was it was a great experience I out there for like a week um I haven't been back since but yeah it was dope you never been to South Africa never been to South Africa bro so the reason why I asked that is because like yo bro like American culture has infiltrated South Africa like you can't believe like you know we got people worshiping you guys you know Jim Jones rappers and everything you so we've got rappers who rap just like you and youd say they're like Bloods and Crips but they've never they've never left sa you know cuz that's how influential uh the culture is right but from you when you see or hear that like what do you guys think like do you think is like some [ __ ] like or like leave don't don't follow the gang life you know what I mean oh as far as that is concerned um there's two sides to that this what you do as a gang member that turns it into something that becomes a crime or whatever that end but the Brotherhood part of it is what the most of us joined up for when we coming up in the hood and need that Brotherhood lean on somebody is that type of camaraderie that pretty much stood for and there's a lot of other great attributes that comes with affiliation or you becoming a part of a gang um it gets twisted up because we all come up in these urban communities and our back is against the wall we don't have no opportunities um it's very dormant uh we on top of each other so naturally testosterone testosterone wins in a lot of these situations where these kids find s in bad situations and for that I would tell people to kind of stay away from this type of life um I don't want to oppose my will we all going to experience what we going to experience but I can't tell you the consequences to this type of Lifestyle could be very dear you heard ethal a lot of people don't get to make it where I made it and Escape that lifestyle that could have put me away or could have put me in the dirt I mean so here as a Living testament to tell you that these consequences are terrible the odds on you making it out of that life in a positive manner are very slim I mean but if you are in that life and you taking it as a Brotherhood and try to uplift your brothers I know there's a lot of people around you that are doing a lot of [ __ ] that that that that that's very crazy you know what I mean if you're a part of that and you got the positive minder then you try to uplift your brother and instill some positivity within them because it's very cold out here so I've always been curious bro like so when that when you you you start getting immersed you know or Affiliated in the gang life how does that affect the conversation at home with your parents like your mom your dad and just the domestic you know Dynamics I a't grow my parents I was a grown man since I was like 15 I made my own money since I was like 16 my grandmother left me in high school man I was raising my Sisters by myself in the projects I hustle every I ever got in my life that's why music saved my life I was so grateful to be able to be next to cam and him getting a deal at such a very young age to be able to still be making money off that [ __ ] right now you were U anr for Warner uh music group yeah I was the director of anr for Warner Music Group um years ago uh shouts to Kevin L shouts to Leo Cohen for giving me the opportunity um great opportunity uh I excelled at it extremely very young with a lot of power but didn't understand what I had at hand um didn't have too many people in my corner that were telling me the things that I should have been doing with that type of position as opposed to some type of weird way be hating you know I mean so that's what happened but as you get older you learn you learn and you move on who did you discover while you were in that position uh I would tell you a story I I know I've helped try s uh they come to tra songs that you know today he's always in he's always in we know why no n but he was a young kid at the time and uh they were actually going to cut him from the label we had a big uh um it's like uh one of them uh some events they be doing not the talent shows the uh well was something like that all the artists had to come perform and then they pretty much didn't know that they was on a Cho and block at the time when I was an executive and and he was one of the artists that they were going to cut and I remember Kevin L specifically ask me yo what we should do with him I'm about to cut him I don't know what to do with him and when I heard him uh singing and I saw him perform I was like this is this is one artist you should keep and did that and now we all tra songs on so many dope ass records is it true you could have signed Drake yeah I had a chance to sign uh I had a chance to do business with Drake um through Allan grum blat um when I was doing business at cotch um it was a different era I didn't understand what Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he show me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah understand everybody going at my guy I understand the hate man the hate is so phenomenal it's just how this game go man this game is so tricky man these [ __ ] just like females in this game we ain't going to get into that man there's a lot of uh but wait wait wait so so with Drake like are you are you seeing him perform like try songs or like you just heard of the guy just a conversation Allan called me about signing a kid let me hear some of his music um and I was like the kid know how to rap but I don't know what to do with him his image is crazy and him couple years later heard him on a Wheezy mixtape going crazy I was like wow this kid is about to go wham inside of this business and he sure did and you're know trying to call Weezy like yo man I gotta get that kid or something n he was already signed a young money and jcole did you miss on jcole as well I could have signed J Cole bro jcole was in the studio with me every day and at that point jcole I he's he remind me of a knockoff Drake and not to say it like that but that's who he sounded like he came to my studio every day rapping to these Drake beats rapping like Drake Cadence like Drake he could rap his ass off yeah you heard yeah but it was already a drake out there he had the Caesar it was different like two lightskinn [ __ ] might not K when raing the same but you never know what you got in front of you man you dig and those are lessons I I've took with me to moving forward when I see artists and and I hate artists I always give them more than just hearing just just I got to I got to I gotta try to capture the whole picture I make sure I just don't you mean so I don't miss nothing else because I've missed a few people and I've helped a few people um gain a lot of success in in my time in this industry whether it been by me having a meeting with them or me having influence on them or you know I mean so you know and there's never like any animosity like Jake Cole or Drake never came up to be like yo you could have signed me look at me now bro I mean me and Drake is cool as [ __ ] um I see J Cole I don't think he I mean I don't think that's no he some [ __ ] he might want to keep to himself not to be like that sh the co he not that type of artist he's not a you I mean yeah you did I look I look at as we can see I want to mention an artist who like I'm really fond of like I think this guy's [ __ ] amazing musically talented everything that he touched like turned to Gold who's that uh kid k bro K Cy yeah yeah did you help him with his career yeah I birth K Cy wow J me how so bro bir them nobody would have know who K Cy was at all if I a jump on this remix record but it wasn't even remix he wasn't even a nobody like I tell a story all the time I had a inter used to work for me said he got some dudes that do videos they would like to do a video for me told them come let me see they work they show me their videos the first video they showed me was of the kid Cy record he's on the top of a roof some simple video the record sound more wavy than the opportunity for them to do a video I'm like well if you'll get me the beat to this record I Remix this record and then y'all can shoot the video to that record wow and that's what they did and then um the radio station ripped the record off of YouTube and start playing it at Hot 97 and K Cy was born bro why do you think especially about kid Cy cuz from him when I listen to music right it wasn't really no no other kid Cy record besides the one that I was on yeah man he's not in they don't play his records where I be at at all not to be funny wow bro and we listen to him like all that day and night you know remember only record I know yeah it's the only record I know unless it's like a pop record that everybody know and I and I'm even not paying attention to it but he don't his records don't get played nowhere that i' be at not like that unless I go into a different farm and that's the type of music they playing in one of these funny clubs that play fist pump music and pop music he's not into like you dig like they don't play his music in the clubs I'll be at maybe in Vegas and [ __ ] like that but that's not like they not pumping this [ __ ] in live they not pumping this [ __ ] in Atlanta they not pumping this [ __ ] down the Stafford room or you know what I mean like they I'm not saying nothing like that but I don't hear it in the strip clubs I don't hear like you know what I mean so but he's a very successful person with some of the greats like Kanye to put him in a position to win and [ __ ] like that and I think he's way more better as an actor than he is a musician and that's just my POS that's just my opinion he did I seen him in the movie uh about the race car [ __ ] where he was F the playe like he got a lot of Charisma and [ __ ] like that on on camera for what I could see and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean bro I mean for you as Jim Jones to to see these kids you're introduced to them by an intern and then to hop onto that song it's something selfless you know to just give these unknown kids an opportunity of sharing a song with you where do you think that selflessness comes from how was that unknown kid I'm still an unknown kid anytime I get an opportunity that's an opportunity I should be able to give to somebody else bro the fact that you could even come to our podcast shout out man yeah man you don't even know us exactly what you're saying yeah know us what's his name I don't it's fine you know remember those kids who who did the video for him anyway you know remember I remember like that kids that got the biggest African podcast I'm definitely going to know like them is my guys right family right there appreciate I really mean that that sincerely and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean I I bump in too many people in my life and been across too many people in my journey to actually remember everybody's name but the face and the cause and I mean BR I want to understand right the first time you came up with the concept For Love and Hip Hop where were you what was happening that um that was something like uh me and Christy she had opportunity to do uh her own reality show um and actually fell through and that kind of she was kind of she wanted to do that I can see she was eager about doing that when it fell through kind you know I mean [ __ ] with her mood and [ __ ] like that so so so so so the initial concept what was it was just Chrissy just showing like what's life the initial concept was about she had her own thing going on about a group of women that was supposed to do a reality show had nothing to do with me yeah that [ __ ] fell through she lost that opportunity to end up not going people have been begging me to do reality TV for past couple years at the time and I and you reality TV gold man I refused to do it yeah and then when that happened I was like all right I got I'll do this for you and we'll make it about you and females that have to that are involved with artist such as myself and show what the relationship side is when you're dealing with a high-profile artist and you know what I mean how so that's how that started bro and that thing became a monster super super monster like it's still big till this day bro 100% so do you have like uh ownership in that we we were link a all that you know at that time when maybe the second season we just in a position where we refuse to compromise our dignity for anyone or any dollar and sometimes it be like that you know what I mean um but ain't no stress off my back T my hat to him you no but but but we got to talk about that because you see like this podcast um it's blackowned right it's just me and a couple of other people that are involved in the podcast right and we're always striving for ownership so a lot of um Brands and investors have come to try to buy the podcast and we say know cuz like we believe in ownership and telling the story the way we want to tell it right so what went wrong in that because as a hustler I believe like that's your also end goal MH um it wasn't something that I was just a lot of different layers and [ __ ] like that and I was too worried about doing other things and we had the opportunity to gain all ownership 50% of the whole TV show and all that but it still wasn't worth GE bro that's insane you just let go like that yeah bro it's your brain child bro there is no Love and& Hip Hop without you bro I still got a brain you heard yeah those are for people that don't have a brain that lack creativity people that steal things from you lack what you don't have remember that yeah whether it's money whether it's creativity whatever it is they lack what you don't have ultimately they steal from you you heard I mean we didn't even know C beef if it wasn't for Love and& Hip Hop right yeah yeah yeah definitely yeah bro you gave birth to so many many people man like VI their careers that's the god in me that's why I'm always going to be good yeah she man so any other shows that you're working on like in the pipeline that you want to do I was telling you I working on um a late night show a late night um a late night variety show live in studio audience hopefully we'll be filming in about 40 to 60 days um beautiful concept I do I do believe people going enjoy the show um like I was saying I can't do um a podcast is too personal for me and [ __ ] like that and me watching these podcasts um dealing with these artists me myself don't have the temperament for it you know what I mean um I [ __ ] I T my hat to y'all to have to deal with artists such as myself cuz you never know what type of mood they going to come in you know what I me some of these artists have a air to them where they feel like they better than most and they would never sit and have tea with the with the maintenance guy you heard me myself me going to maintenance guy going to smoke blunts before I get on stage [Music] I live my life and and and currently uh before we let you go man what do you think about the state of hip-hop cuz like statistically numbers wise it's not looking good man e beats has played all over New York now there's now the pianos this is this is what they want you to do this is how to get us to go against each other it's all under the same culture umbrella it's afro music ref I'm a piano I'm a piano explain that what do you mean by that bro yeah R&B what do you mean by that ultimately it's all from under the same origin and creativity of the same person from the same colors is all our thing n but let's be honest Jimmy hip-hop hasn't involved bro when I was listening to Eminem what do you want mean what do you mean hip-hop hasn't evolved you guys are still rapping about the same stuff it don't you you missing the point of what hip-hop is yeah hip-hop has evolved to a point that you can be the music genres that you're told them about can be noticed you think that if there was a hip hop that I'm a piano would be noticed or afro Beach would be noticed think about that and not to take nothing away from y because you always have culture and yes that music might be big within the continent of Africa yeah right but to cross over to American Fame and commercialism you don't think that the hip-hop culture played a big part in that that's that that's a different argument now you want to have a different argument I'm telling you the semantics of where we going with this you dig like you talking about uh the the hip hop music is damn percentage that's how they want us to think when it's really not cuz we all uplifting each other you heard you think that the country music that's going on in the black people winning is not because of the hip-hop culture no no no I think no one is disputing that however so then when you say hip-hop numbers are down and damn for who no I'm talking about I know what you're talking about but damn for who tell me who it's down for because I'm still making the money I make yeah I do believe there's still a lot of artist that's making a shitload of money that they make I don't think it went down for them yeah you know what I mean but I understand what you're talking about they say the numbers and then rock and roll genre might be up like I don't really you heard like that's I'm into this business you heard and it's always up for us you heard cuz this is a business we make money out of nothing it's never a downside to this okay and and that's why I'm saying I think we're having two different conversations here cuz the conversation I'm having is I'm having I'm having right is that in as much as he's saying yeah the numbers are down because they orchestrated and whatever I get that right but also that's why I asked do you think Hip-hop has evolved cuz I grew up on hip-hop right and the same things um quote unquote you guys were rapping about in the '90s how can hipop how can hip hop evolved in the same thing that Africa been Africa been going on since the '90s aren't y going still going through the same thing we are huh we are so how could the music evolve when the music ref the time ah okay get you real stories what you want us to rap about [ __ ] that that we don't have ah we talk about [ __ ] we dream about all the time that's the good The Good Life the colorin the Ros we talk about but the truth is how the music going to change when our position hasn't changed when we still going through the same [ __ ] we've been going through okay and y'all being from Africa should know that more than we know that yeah that's facts that's fact go about that own Cod yeah yeah yeah yeah you know are bro that's a valid fact but how do you feel man like you've come from an era where you guys when what you you said in your raps I mean evolved as far as dition as far as what we rap about cuz we still stuck in the same place but as a business it has evolved to one of big time yeah yeah biggest big time money making machines you can attach yourself to this made some of the richest individuals whether you're the rapper the lawyer the executive like that's true you know what I mean the supply chain but then I think that's why you know when you get the likes of a wz coming out and Kendrick Lamar they stand out like a sore thumb because like they are rapping about but that's what music is about to stand out for those who that want to look like everybody they don't get nowhere why you think Dip set was so successful sucessful yeah because we stood out on purpose we don't want to look like or H or sound like no one else m we want yall to above all see us when we walk in the building and hear us when we get on that [ __ ] mic you heard why would you guys the diplomats I never like where did that come from the diplomats the name the diplomats yeah we diplomats oh ah okay that sounded cool no we diplomats we are Harlem diplomats and we take it as that you heard we go to the Embassy when we land in countries you heard all right okay okay okay I I sort of get that bro so in the business and how you still making money right now like from music just like how is it royalties damn you asking a lot of questions bro no I want to know bro I'm so I've got so many questions I want to ask you bro I'll tell you this music is supposed to be used so you can make as much ancillary dollars as you can because the music ain't promised everybody 15 minutes of fame ranges from a small 15 minutes of fame to a run like we having within that minute the 15 minutes the fame you better do a lot of other things to secure your bag because music is not going to be thing you be able to get paid off forever unless you're the DRS and the J that's not even 1% that's you know what I mean so you think about that so you better have some hustle you better learn how to you better have some business sense you better put your credit in order you better do a few things to secure you if you are artist [ __ ] leverage powerful penda yeah man how do you feel man when these kids these days wrap up about you know trying to act tough and rap about stuff they never done like you guys red about stuff you lived I mean I do believe a lot of these kids are going through a lot of [ __ ] that we went through and then a lot of the kids are talking about [ __ ] that they see but most of the kids are all growing up in the same community that all of that [ __ ] is going on so who tells them they don't have the right to talk about [ __ ] that they're not doing when that's still [ __ ] that they're seeing oh sure Ah that's powerful but the problem I have a problem when they rapping like they did it but they just R from somebody else's Vantage Point understand that but most of these artists that you've seen in the game some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I pretty firm in his in in his music that I'm a believer that he did some of that [ __ ] he can talk about just me I don't know you possibilities are possibilities but some things just seem correct you know mean I can't tell you for sure cuz it is music you know what I mean but some things seem correct [ __ ] man bro you got to come out to man you got to you know we haven't had a proper uh hip-hop concert in sa like since 50 N since you are come on back to the city does concerts man ah those are for old people empd the bigest artist in South Africa right now Hip-Hop Hip-Hop uh there's a guy called nastyc but nesty came here he doesn't know know you f poopa who's that nah F poopa Nigerian West African artist massive he used to pop not now for real still massive bigger than like ber boyo still it's different type of music oh stadiums is 50 60,000 people like what is this following this gu what's his name f poop F poop I don't know him bro he's from Nigeria yeah yeah yeah yeah Nigerian Prett pretty big yeah humongous bro how big was was 50 Cent bro like during his Reign man like how big was 50 Cent [ __ ] retardedly big it wasn't nothing bigger than him was Drake before Drake was dring he was oh [ __ ] he did it like it was like 50 was on a run that he never even touched the club bro like [ __ ] never seen him in the club he only did Arenas I never knew too many artist that just did that you dig like the [ __ ] was super massive every [ __ ] Rec he came out with was was going platinum and I'm just telling you the facts you heard and I always got to speak factual no matter how I feel about a person the [ __ ] was on top Super on top it was no way to knock him off his d i remember Jay-Z dropped the diss track on you did you guys resolve that beef I think you were not happy with him as the president of De jam oh man um we never really had a beef um we had some feuds back and forth through the situations that were going on over other people um and me being who I am I had to hold my ground um but to know that he actually talked about me in multiple of his records mean that I was pretty big in his eyes you dig true true cuz I didn't hear him talk about too many people in his career and if he did talk you talk about you on the record that meant something you know what I mean and I was then so for me that I I I took that like what it was like you dig like yeah J doesn't respond to take the time out to say my name you heard if I'm if I'm not that big of a deal to you you would never ever a am I am I right talk about a person you heard true it's it's a form of respect and ackowledge 100% am I right in saying a lot of [ __ ] are scared of Jay-Z bro cuz we interviewed Dam Ian I don't I don't know I'm not a lot of [ __ ] you heard I'm a man so I couldn't I I couldn't tell you that you heard I ain't scared to nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that that that dentist yeah the dentist got me there you heard you can walk in you could walk we about to fight right now you a dentist walk in you got it you got it like you got it bow down you got it I don't want no smoke let me get out of here M fact word Jimmy before you go man uh what beefs did you have so you had something beef with Jay-Z right no man I just told you we had some feuds stemming from that's beef bro stemming from other things that going on um my problem like it was all part of Us coming up in the game and things were happening we were signing a Rockefeller cam was sign a Rockefeller actually then we got opportunity to Diplomat records um the split between uh Jay and Dame came um artist took sides some took the J side some took the the Dame side which side were you on we was on the Dame side OB Dash yeah Dame Dash that's do you think Dame Dash is misunderstood bro huh you think Dame Dash is misunderstood um too smart for his own good I get that yeah if you had the opportunity again you sometimes being the smartest person in the room could be held against you especially when you want everybody to know that you're the smartest person in the room yeah yeah yeah and I get given a second chance would you still side with Dam never you wouldn't never whoa I never signed a d at all that was no no no like sided with him took his side oh give a second chance I wouldn't have sided with none of them I would we would haveed our [ __ ] business but you learned that with age yeah you heard we had no business butting into that because it wasn't a street beef and this wasn't some [ __ ] that had to do with us ultimately we were holding our [ __ ] down and [ __ ] like that but business-wise if we would if we knew what we knew now we would let them get into that they self y'all can handle that because we got records to put out and music to make and we got our own record label to run you dig and this my hinder what we got going on by us taking sides and that's why I tell people now even when people seeing all the Diplomat [ __ ] like y bro don't don't get in to taking sides with me and my bro because you never know how that might end up and if it end up to a point where we do figure out our situation then I'm looking at you funny now me and you got forever you heard you dig and there are plenty of people that did that and plenty people that didn't and plenty people that showed the same amount of love that he showed to me that it showed to cam when we were going through our imaginary situations and [ __ ] like that cuz it's all imaginary when you know you can figure figure it out now it's a saying that like don't just be in people's business when especially when they've beef and take sides cuz and I I had to learn that a lot I had took me a long time to learn that because of how we come up in the Cod that they supposedly treat us in teach us in the street and [ __ ] like that but sometimes that's not the smallest thing that we can do and then uh push a t did you ever beef with him nah that was some [ __ ] that we was on record um he did some [ __ ] I did some [ __ ] you dig that was it I never followed that I didn't even know did you know there's a pusher T me I ain't got no just know I don't know I know you're from I know you're from Africa and [ __ ] like that but people don't play with me yeah for real and I don't I don't play with people this ain't no playground you heard this is the street it's two ways don't get caught up in a yellow line it's going to be hard to cross bro yeah you heard no I don't trust me I'm from Africa but I saw what happened at the airport so that [ __ ] escalated yeah [ __ ] that was self-defense man God yo bro it looked like that guy was just messing with you bro I wish that could have never happened cuz I was trying to avoid that by all cause but [ __ ] happened sometime man you dig and definitely not not going to allow anybody do anything to me at all bro when I saw that video right like I don't know I just met you today right but I saw when you lifted that guy from the escalator threw him down he literally just went on survival mode bro like it's like there was a button that you switched on and you just like I don't [ __ ] care but yeah yeah no I mean no that's a button that I choose not to push you heard yeah exactly like you can go there quickly I choose to show restraint for a lot of reasons in my life and sometimes it's hard to you dig but where I'm at in life right now I choose positivity or all the other things that come out my way because I know how it is to be negative I was once that negative person that was very aggressive and ready to do something to to you over the minimal alistic of things and [ __ ] like that so I'm blessed to be here to try to be able to show restraint and so so the guy so the guy at the airport you guys on the same plane yeah we on the same plane so you don't have a private jet no I don't have a private jet I'm not a rich man come on Jimmy you made so much money over the years but anyway so you're in the plane what's he what's this guy saying to you like um I don't know man just [ __ ] happens I know just the started from the plane just know that what you see happen on so it starts on the plane you restrain yourself you're like all right cool my dog say whatever you want to say yeah when he gets to the airport I mean the escalator that's when I think he starts hitting you or something right yeah something like that he tried to do something like that and that's what we see man but like I said this is not something that I want to glorify it's not you think he knows who you are um if if he didn't he know now no I'm I'm sorry see sorry cuz some people just provoke I believe he was he was trolling a little bit and things like that which is cool you I mean I'm if if you in New York not time 10 you do know who I am so you know I believe it was a bit of that but God bless man hopefully that they all right hopefully the old man um cool you dig like are you spiritual cuz you mentioned God a lot man yeah I'm very spiritual very spiritual very spiritual I've been my whole family is spiritual and what does that mean in an American sense cuz um us as African for me it means a lot of different things um I was told what the church was as a young age as they drag you to church every Sunday your grandmother your moms and your family and things like that and you really don't understand what that is from that young but as you get older and you go through certain things and you make it through certain things you understand that there is a God and everybody has a relationship with their God different and sometimes going to church doesn't mean that you love your God any less or he loves you any less you dig and you say spiritual I'm very spiritual I say my prayers as much as I can sometime two three four times in a day you dig man doesn't take away from what I do and who I am because I'm still in the line for everything else everybody is in but I know every day that I'm able to wake up and every day I'm able to make a dollar and every day I'm able to keep living the life that I am I should be thankful you heard cuz that's not just me that's a higher vibration that's definitely a God you dig and I'm well aware that I've escaped many things in life that Lord knows I should not be here but then again I should be here cuz he put here for a reason he gives his toughest battles to his strongest people what the Bible say you heard and I've made it through some very tough battles which are minimal to some of the people that I had next to me in their battles you know what I mean so it's like we all got to figure it out Jim Jones thank you so much man and thanks to God for bringing you here man definitely I appreciate for making time for us bro thank you man we appreciate you tired when you got you I appreciate the fact that you could even make it man got any last question yeah man bro you said you've gone through some tough battles and you mentioned how you lost your dad at like 26 but also that you you pretty much raised yourself from the age of 15 you know from that relationship or lack of it like has it affected how you father your children 100% this made me the best father I could be but me my relationship with my father was always a great one even though he wasn't there because every day he wasn't I love them even more I wasn't one of them kids that was bitter you dig I understand that everybody went through something and at that age what he was going through there was a lot of drug addiction and I knew that from a very young age I understood what drugs was and how they were tearing up my family I never held that against my father and I was just blessed able to get back with him before he passed away so he could see that his son was making something out of himself at that time I was already signed to her uh we think we just got the Rockefeller deal so it was a very big deal for me to be able to get back with my father to show him that me somebody that you should be proud of and I know him looking down right now got be like damn I did that so you know and that's how I feel but then in turn TR here my son I don't you know I mean like I just you know mean I pride myself on making sure that I I turned my son into somebody that was way better than I could ever be you oh man yeah that's my guy shout out to you man is your son still wearing Crocs to you br he's a Croc guy you heard yeah Crocs for Life bro Crocs for Life jumping out the beam with a fresh paer Crocs on I don't want to stand him Jimmy before you go your top five rappers all time my top five rappers of all you got to give us your top five bro yeah Tupac definitely Jay-Z Drake um Drake he not like us by default of course um rock cam no Eminem No No whoa not even big you from NY and not to take nothing away from him he's extremely nice it's retardedly nice when it comes to rap but I listen to artists that kind of you know I mean do something for the life that I live and kind of what I've been through and most of these artist or artist that I'm talking about people that you know what I mean like [ __ ] better stop hating on my boy Drake all of a sudden all this Drake land I get it I get it you ain't like us let's not do that let's not forget the 15 years he been spanking [ __ ] around this [ __ ] all all all over this [ __ ] all the alley he been giving most of these artists that are now seeming to be turning on them let's you know let's not some of them gave him their best hits let's not forget the big picture here and [ __ ] like but what the hip-hop culture and this game is built on competition so I yeah but what is he with it you heard you better put your best foot forward but what has Drake given back to the culture oh that you so love here we go um what is he giving back to the culture I seen him take a lot of people on tour and turn them even richer than they already was I I seen him give a lot of people hits that they would have never had if he wouldn't have got on a record things for the culture that wouldn't have happened in turn records that we would have never knew about him to record that the culture love and things like that I mean he's not from here Canada from the hood I don't believe he owes America too much but the monster that give back to where he's from maybe we should ask about what has he done in Canada giving back to his community as opposed to what he giving back to the culture of the United States when this is not where he's from and I think that's the Divide right there now if we talk about what he's done in Canada and if it's not up to par then maybe we can talk about oh you dig but that's I think that's for the people of Canada you dig like yeah cuz but it's the people of America in the hood who made him of course you heard about but that he didn't grw up in America he didn't grew up here you heard so if you was an artist from Africa yeah like boy yeah do you think bnab boy has responsibility what do Niger of United stes n I'm taking it back home bro super duper big yes but that's what people then will call a culture vulture cuz you come into a space you know do what the people of that space do benefit from them is is is you understand what we doing like it's bro it's not because he's not take so he's not taking benab boy is Nigerian it's a Nigerian culture that is now popular in America so Drake took an American culture and enriched himself but what he's saying is that he doesn't owe anything to America cuz he's not from yet right okay right yeah I mean [ __ ] he's got no obligation Fair argument he got no obligation Fair argument yeah like he lived if he lived like I don't I don't that's how I see it you heard like that's how I see it you dig but all these [ __ ] we talking about are filthy filthy filthy rich off the opinions of men you heard what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never but what I'm just trying to tell you is how this game is played yeah you heard yeah geez man the more we talk the more they get paid the loser still gets paid too if there is a loser I don't think there's a loser when they all getting Millions off of this [ __ ] I don't think I mean like and I understand end all be all in the whole circle of it but I'm I've been in this [ __ ] for so long I'm miss you can see the politics of really get you to understand of what's really going on and [ __ ] like that this [ __ ] don't pay me a dollar to talk about it yeah hey man how tight you with Joe Bon he calls us those African guys with numbers oh yeah yeah yeah Jo this my guy buts what's up man he cool yeah he's an instigator definely know how to get under people's skin yeah I've known Joan for so long [ __ ] like that um I'm proud of him put himself in his position a whole new Lane to make a shitload of money um where it stem from the culture this what I'm talking about all the ancillary things that you need to get going on if are a artist of some type of success you got to use that to get where you want look at Joe used his startom and rap no matter what it was to able to finesse a whole new Lane of podcasting that true he's pretty big in damn near one of the forefathers of it from our culture right y'all started before him or after him we started after him but now we have more numbers than him hey doesn't matter no numbers do matter I mean no J and get num I'm cool with that but you won't be never be the considered the forefather of this whole no no no no no no no you dig 100% yeah it's Jo Joan numbers is cool I'm cool with that you get paid and I know what's a race you might be number one you heard yeah yeah but you still never be the forefather always going to have that under him like I've created this Lane for your how I feel about Ling hip hop yeah of course I got that under my belt that's mine y can never say that was yours at all yeah okay how much money you made off of it and [ __ ] like that at the end of the day you it's mine you heard Still My still mine so we always ask anybody any guest that we get on the show in closing what do you want to be remembered as man when it's all said and done I want I want to be remembered I want I want them to know that I gave more than I took because I was able to take a lot in my time amen just like that sh hey man I wish you put me on love and& hip-hop bro they got the African love of Hip Hop they got Jamaican love of Hip Hop they got they got any type of Love of Hip Hop we need the South African love of Hip Hop thanks Jim man shout out thank you bro I appreciate you man thank you we appreciate podcast and chill we out of here man boom peace welcome to Black excellenc do not fear for if you do just sip on some Grand and if you still do ask ourselves what would M [Music] do when they ask you do not fear for if you do just say an TV this is the the medicine of censorship this is the pill which one is that one podcast and chill	never been to South Africa bro so the reason why I asked that is because like yo bro like American culture has infiltrated South Africa like you can't believe like you know we got people worshiping you guys you know Jim Jones rappers and everything you so we've got rappers who rap just like you and youd say they're like Bloods and Crips but they've never they've never left sa you know cuz that's how influential uh the culture is right but from you when you see or hear that like what do you guys think like do you think is like some [ __ ] like or like leave don't don't follow the gang life you know what I mean oh as far as that is concerned um there's two sides to that this what you do as a gang member that turns it into something that becomes a crime or whatever that end but the Brotherhood part of it is what the most of us joined up for when we coming up in the hood and need that Brotherhood lean on somebody is that type of camaraderie that pretty much stood for and there's a lot of other great attributes that comes with affiliation or you becoming a part of a gang um it gets twisted up because we all come up in these urban communities and our back is against the wall we don't have no opportunities um it's very dormant uh we on top of each	5	7	3	never been to South Africa bro so the reason why I asked that is because like yo bro like American culture has infiltrated South Africa like you can't believe like you know we got people worshiping you guys you know Jim Jones rappers and everything you so we've got rappers who rap just like you and youd say they're like Bloods and Crips but they've never they've never left sa you know cuz that's how influential uh the culture is right but from you when you see or hear that like what do you guys think like do you think is like some [ __ ] like or like leave don't don't follow the gang life you know what I mean	oh as far as that is concerned um there's two sides to that this what you do as a gang member that turns it into something that becomes a crime or whatever that end but the Brotherhood part of it is what the most of us joined up for when we coming up in the hood and need that Brotherhood lean on somebody is that type of camaraderie that pretty much stood for and there's a lot of other great attributes that comes with affiliation or you becoming a part of a gang um it gets twisted up because we all come up in these urban communities and our back is against the wall we don't have no opportunities um it's very dormant uh we on top of each	2,6,5	0,4,3	2	6	5	0	4	3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr730VmL-lk	4,054	rr730VmL-lk	2024-06-27 00:00:00	like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano no well Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he showed me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah just understand everybody going there my guy I understand the hate exactly what you're saying yeah bro what's his name I don't it's fine you remember those some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I ain't scared of nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that the dentist yeah dentist got me there what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never [Music] [Music] yo Jimmy you do not look like you want to be here bro like someone forced you to be it's like you have to do that par they're the biggest podcast in Africa you have to be there I never look like I want to be nowhere man you got to part of me but congratulations to yall having the biggest podcast in Africa that that that's very big Africa being one of the biggest continents in the world a lot of people over there shut up man why you so tired bro crazy weekend I've been working all weekend shows different states traveling Planes Trains automobiles you know how I be a little bit too much partying yeah road kill it's tough but what's up how y'all feeling I'm good bro I literally saw um I saw your video uh yesterday for your new single the one you shot in Miami two turn temp yeah yeah how you feel about it bro that [ __ ] is lit man looks like our Vibe bro cuz we've been to Miami myself and and my partner but we never like experienced the Miami night life we were playing in Florida yeah we're DJing in Florida but two South Africans like the diaspora then West Palm Beach as well yeah DJ also yeah like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano what it's a genre it's called a piano no no cuz I'm a piano even you heard like you saw he did the whole Keys thing it has nothing to do with the piano that's where it started but has nothing to do with it these days when when I met charlot man he said the exact same thing he's like oh so you're a podcaster I'm like yeah and then you DJs I'm like no I play I'm a Pian like you're a Pianist man you one talented [ __ ] n it's a genre of music man what kind of genre is that like it's like slowed down house music with a lot of s that African influence that's the only way I can describe it so it's a it's a mix of a marriage house yeah a marriage of house music which originated here at Chicago and stuff and then we slowed it down created a sub genre called guo where guys were sort of rapping but very minimalist raps called guo then the kids were born like in the 2000s late '90s then created a whole meshup of those two genres and it's called Piano cuz a a lot of Americans think it's um afro beats it's not afro beats yeah a lot of the hence I avoided saying afro beats cuz AFR beats is from Nigeria and amap piano is far from afro beat afro beat borrows from am piano now where is amap piano originated from South Africa from the hoods from the Cassis yeah but when I when I was looking at your video bro uh the only thing in my mind was like bro what's a night like out with Jim Jones CU that [ __ ] look lit there [ __ ] everywhere bro um please please describe a night out in Miami with Jim so let's say we going to Miami right now I mean some nice are better than others but been doing it so long it's kind of like the the bare minimum for us to do in Miami just having fun but it still work at the same time like every every I'm I'm not just going out partying for no reason ni like that was we knew what we was kind of getting into we wanted to film a video so we knew we was going to ramp it up a bit take it to the to the highest form going crazy as we could but that actually happened to fall on a big weekend um and one of my dudes was celebrating so everything kind of happened for a reason but yeah Miami could take you for take you for a few a few trips man like okay so so so me and you we get in the car right I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm in Miami I hate you cuz you got a house there you stay there right yeah I got I got I got cribs there so I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm by the strip you know that Miami strip right yeah yeah yeah I mean see that's the thing about Miami when you come to visit Miami that's where people are know at like the strip and things like that I guess stand by Collins and ocean driveing all that people that live there don't really do the strip like that like you just you dig people congregate usually at night time and all the spots that usually go on down there um okay so we got security obviously you got to roll around with security right um yeah I mean that' be the safest thing for me to do so we get out the cut with security when you get to the bouncers are they letting us in cuz it's Jim Jones or are they checking our IDs cuz they've been checking our IDs just to buy beer here bro Che ID everywhere yeah everywhere yeah no I I don't think I produced my ID in since I was a teenager at clubs but yeah you won't need your ID when you with me so we walking in right yeah we going to get in oh do we have a section do we they going to give us a section VIP yeah they going to give us a section we going to get some bottles and let the night ensue got this thing called Power Hour you go to the club maybe like 2:45 to 3:45 in and out no sweat so what's the what's the purpose of that exercise the Power Hour yeah like why would you be in the cloud for an hour why would I be in a club for 4 hours it's Fu I mean I've been part I've been partying since I've been 14 I've been making money to party since I've been 18 I'm kind of burnt out so at this point I try to wait till the club is at the most popping or lest moment which is usually that hour right there and I get to enjoy everything that happened tonight and leave out of there and not be all burnt out what what does your wife say bro cuz you're married man you're surrounded by all these girls like you know I mean I'm going to worry about the women yeah is minimal to the money worry about the money more than anything so so a woman doesn't like give you grief when you come home I yeah you get you get grief all the time if you in a relationship no matter what you do if you had a job on Wall Street you get home you're going to get grief no around it you heard yeah there's women everywhere unless you work in the LGBT Club then you know I mean even there you still going to go home and get like it's no way around it you're going to get you know I mean like yeah so you've never had like been home and you had to explain like yo no man I was just doing music video it's just work like I don't know that good you going to explain yourself in every relationship and things like that I got a good woman at home who understands a job I have and things like that so for the most part but for the most part I'm a very responsible respectable person when when I'm in the streets and when I do have to interact with females and things like that yeah anyway H ladies and gentlemen welcome to another special edition of podcasting chill so CU yeah I am here we're chilling with the [ __ ] Legend Kings of Harlem please make some noise for Jim Jones Jim I gotta say bro I gotta say bro I'm going to be honest with you when I find that your name was GMO geloo gelo I'm like I'm like Jim Jones losing some G points here man what the [ __ ] is that I'm Puerto Rican and a rubian my pops is Puerto Rican the word gelo means William in English is a Spanish Spanish name cuz you know what I was thinking I was thinking that guy who does the show late night you know the short guy who does like the interviews with um this late night comedian man what are the late night shows oh man not uh bad with these oh gosh the late night guy bro uhri or something not Corin O'Brien no not Trevor Noah the other American guy man like uh old new no he's like jimm Kimel Jimmy Kimel jimy he's got that he's got that short guy his name is julo oh I don't I don't I don't got got me messed up I don't even really watch TV like that bro okay I'll be out chasing the money I ain't even got time to do that and if and if I do got some time I'm trying to get a little bit of rest or I'm thinking about money [ __ ] is crucial out here right now you better get to your dollar a lot of [ __ ] about to happen and if you ain't got no coins boy you going to be [ __ ] up you ever been to uh Puerto Rico yeah I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times yeah but business not for the Heritage part of it so like you don't know where like your your your parents were at Familiar of the place where my father's from but I never really got to do the whole go to give with my family understand the roots understand you know I mean like I didn't get to get to that part of it but I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times you find like that's important like to know you it's definitely important I had this um I did an interview not too long ago about um how important the roots are and get to know where my family from know I mean so we'll start to do that pretty soon so so so your dad you know you know your dad right yeah he's passed away oh okay God bless rest in peace what happened to him he passed away yeah like was it um medical thing or yeah natural causes oh damn like when you young or um maybe when I was uh 23 24 oh damn bro SED to hear that man maybe 26 right before my son passed right before my God bless right before my son Bor bro but you like 47 right now I look good for 47y old man no homo you know what I mean thank you very much like what was what's keeping you looking so good is it the yoga yeah a lot of yoga a lot of Pilates I stay in shape um I'm very uh very big on Fitness um work out like five six times a week um it's one of the best ways to stay young and have better chances of living a long life is that why you do it or maybe there's other purpose like you know a lot of people are in gym for their mental health I mean it's very it's very it's very therapeutic I will say that but my main goal is to look good of course but to give me better chances of living forever bro so how you got into rap um I don't know correct me if I'm wrong right but you used to skip church and go to the train station to to rap like no I never skipped Church to go on the train station and rap I skipped Church to go to the train station and go play video games and run the streets and do everything a bad little kid did from the streets of hollow when we was like S8 and n and things like that I don't know if you know about anything about the subway system in New York but that's the pathway system that get you to all five burrows and we definitely was on the subway which maybe we shouldn't have been but we was a little uh loose um for me rapping actually rapping didn't start later on in life to actually uh C and um they I got a deal and things like that and that was the first time me myself really thought about actually raing cuz I'll be honest with you like um dipet I don't really know much about dipet however I know about you guys individually like Cameron old boy like one of my favorite songs uh jul sna had hear that that was Cameron and Jules and jwes he both was on he both old boy and heon yeah why don't you jump on those tracks man those tracks are massive they was already done I was there for the making of both of them incredible tracks yeah and then how did dipit start start like how did you guys start the whole movement um organically kiss him Harem gr up together um talented kids Cam and Mason BL sh was they already was doing music um Everybody gradu graduated high school I didn't get to go to college they went to college they got kicked out they got kicked out they come moved in with me from that that was a uh foundation for them to D into the music you've been in the game for like 20 30 odd years right been in the game for since 1997 how would you describe the different eras of like um hip-hop right especially now cuz um obviously we all know about the Kendrick Lamar song they're not like us but I didn't know how big it was until I landed in in in America and it's like it's like a movement the video yeah it's like huge it's massive bro yeah it's a big record Kendrick did that shout out to Kendrick shout out to my boy Drake but what do you think about like the evolution of hip-hop in all the different areas you've been a part of what do you mean what do I think about it it's a great thing to be a part of something that um you could only dream of everybody doesn't get a chance to be in this game um I've been fortunate enough to be here for so many genres and errors and seen so many people come and go I've watched the smallest artist to the biggest artist who you thow will be here forever and going um I got stories for days I can tell you about um how I feel about it I feel great I feel blessed you know what I mean I feel lucky this [ __ ] don't it's not promised and for me to still be here is definitely a blessing so in the 90s what was the vibe like man like like what in the 90s as far as what in hip-hop yeah it was it was different um 90s was a great era um one of my favorite errors um that was the era we first first came outside um started to get out deal uh very aggressive era uh no social media um cell phones were just being born um everything that you seen you was something that you could grab on to um artists had to go to the towns we couldn't just get on your phone and music you had to go get you couldn't just have access to it so it was a it was it it was a hunt um you had to touch the Tails kiss babies do radio everything like it was just a different ER but who was around like during that time when you who was around like Tupac was did you like meet Tupac Tupac I didn't get to meet Tupac um Tupac passed away what 95 was that yeah right in big in '97 um no I got to see Tupac do a few times in Harlem um that was dope but um not Tupac passed away before we got to get in the record game but I've seen a lot of a lot of artists in my time from a young age to old age we were partying in clubs as teenagers before we even got a record deal and things like that like we were in clubs since high school and [ __ ] like that so any interactions with Big L he was from Harlem right yeah shouts to Big Al Big Al was definitely from Harlem um 139th NFL Big L um I was one of the Cam's uh close friends um actually put cam on a dope record that started to give uh Cam and bloodshed and and her mcgree her was already popping too but guy gave them some notice when it came to R so when you come out like who's who's popping at that time is it git is it mop D it's way before G when we came out I was like Eminem just dropped oh [ __ ] this is Slim Shady not M like Slim Shady I I remember that that was like cam had dropped and Eminem had dropped DMX had dropped Nori had dropped um Big Pun had dropped lud Chris Luda had just started coming out um Nelly Nelly down down baby yeah shouts to coola love um yeah that type of error shouts to shouts to Fat Joe shouts to Buster they was already in it uh Nas was already in it Jay start going crazy that's when he just started taking over with the 1 million 2 million 3 million 4 um yeah very competitive very edgy um lot of the big dogs um had real roots in the streets um especially in the streets of New York so that put that put a real Mystique on everything when it came to the music um all the events with topnotch um it just was a different feel man it was a heavy heavy dope boy era um this was before the drug dealers wanted to be Rappers that's when the rappers wanted to be drug dealers you know what I mean and and that Arrow was was a very dope high impact trenel and Russian it was a was a great error bro I saw an interview you did correct me if I'm wrong I might be paraphrasing but you mentioned a place called the tunnel or something where everybody would be and you guys were [ __ ] [ __ ] in the bathrooms please please describe that manest cuz a place like that couldn't exist right now bro with all this woke [ __ ] I mean yeah and the cancel cult I would say it was probably the greatest Club The Hip hopers have seen and it was during the 90s era it was the Golden Era um in New York they got you had stories about like Studio 54 in that era when everybody used all the biggest of big used to go to Studio 54 well the tunnel was what Studio 54 was to that era to our era and it didn't make so many people and nationalities and genres and just everybody was like a big pumbo all for the sake of the culture you had some of the flyest models to some of the biggest drug dealers biggest gang bangers I mean every former elicit street life you could think of was in the spot along with the biggest artists and rappers and actors and models that you could find into all athletes um it would definitely like that um and was this like per invite or just like anybody could Rock up there nah you couldn't just rock up there for this is '90s entry was like $100 first of all $100 for a club that was the first time we ever heard of it and that was a lot of money back then especially we probably started in '94 going there teenager so $100 was sto a lot of money in New York at the time sneakers wasn't even costing $100 um to get in the club you definitely had to be connected to know somebody or you had to wait on a long line that usually was a block long um they had like an Express line you could pay $100 to get on Express line that'll get you to the door quicker and then you pay your entry fee um streets was blocked off you was a big dog you was able to bring your cars down there I was able to bring like four five of them if I wanted to um yeah the club was just it was different man pull up to the door security they taking people's shoes off they searching your jacket twisting people inside out like they about to go on the Rikers Island I got to I gave security High files I never took my shoes off and not since high school I when we used go in high school we used to get our shoes taken off and things like that make you feel like you going to the cental bookings and [ __ ] like that so what gave you that clout that allowed you to bring four cars in when nobody or you had to be a big dog to bring four cars in when you could just give them a high five instead of removing your shoes and you're young by then like what gives you that CL I was a big dog since a small pup bro J yeah man what gave you those you know credentials at such a young age to suppos all these people cuz Dr Tre was there yeah you putting in four cars not removing shoes I was a good Lord Biden citizen everybody love Jim Jones even even the girls like would you just rock up they say let's go to the bathroom that's it yeah now that well yeah there was a lot of that going on they had a uh the layout was different first of all the club was a block long a whole city block um wow there was like three other four other clubs within the club or spots that look like clubs um the main floor was humongously big the DJ was like a a lifeguard Tower in the middle of the club um you go upstairs they had a VR big V PE upstairs and then go through a door it open up to the bathroom the bathroom was like a unisex Club [ __ ] had a big ass bar in the middle of the bathroom uh bunch of stalls lined up um that [ __ ] was like a hotel inside Lions cocaine everything yeah they was going down a lot of sex was going down there a lot of a lot of drugs was going down in there um yeah the tunnel was definitely uh a landmark to New York City when it comes to the clubs I I definitely um I always think about that club um it did a lot for me in my life um it gave me a lot of imagination when it came to to the culture and the things I was seeing from a young age as to where I want to be and the direction I want to go in yeah we was going there since high school so when you seeing people like Mike Tyson and all these people coming in big cheer on and just having their way as a kid go out got to go to school the next morning you you in school thinking about that [ __ ] like w man this school [ __ ] [ __ ] this school [ __ ] I need some money and I need to go to the tunnel that's all I want to [ __ ] do that's wild man now can you imagine because we in sa right we're looking at all the videos that you guys are pulling out there like we're looking at this lifestyle and then you F Track to 2024 right M and the P didy thing breaks out right I mean i' rather not even to get into that yeah just don't I rather the do I don't you know I mean like it's not it's not my business oh I mean like this you heard God bless it's too much n yeah and it's not me to have an opinion on certain things cuz I ain't perfect I've been through my own [ __ ] in life and I see a lot of people that have even this doing too much just know that I ain't perfect so I choose not to talk on certain [ __ ] that you know what I mean a lot of other people people been talking about I let them keep doing the talk and I got other [ __ ] to work on I'm trying to work on me being a better person yeah I respect I respect that man but were ever part of any gang or like you sounding like the F never hey we don't the F in South Africa man only PS I'm just playing with you yeah I've been affiliated with the bloods in New York City um ENT Tre um yeah so crazy have you ever been to sa like have you ever been to Africa or um I've been to Africa where did you go uh gaban gille damn G to perform there um I went to perform there but uh got some great friends there they actually had ran the country at the time this is before the big yeah yeah overtaking and stuff like that but I had a ball out there I got to go to an island called Pony um that was a dope experience as they took me to the jungles I got to see some of the indigenous people um it was like a a real um life Awakening like and I got to see how also the rich people live out there also like I got to see both sides like that you know what I mean it was it was a great experience I out there for like a week um I haven't been back since but yeah it was dope you never been to South Africa never been to South Africa bro so the reason why I asked that is because like yo bro like American culture has infiltrated South Africa like you can't believe like you know we got people worshiping you guys you know Jim Jones rappers and everything you so we've got rappers who rap just like you and youd say they're like Bloods and Crips but they've never they've never left sa you know cuz that's how influential uh the culture is right but from you when you see or hear that like what do you guys think like do you think is like some [ __ ] like or like leave don't don't follow the gang life you know what I mean oh as far as that is concerned um there's two sides to that this what you do as a gang member that turns it into something that becomes a crime or whatever that end but the Brotherhood part of it is what the most of us joined up for when we coming up in the hood and need that Brotherhood lean on somebody is that type of camaraderie that pretty much stood for and there's a lot of other great attributes that comes with affiliation or you becoming a part of a gang um it gets twisted up because we all come up in these urban communities and our back is against the wall we don't have no opportunities um it's very dormant uh we on top of each other so naturally testosterone testosterone wins in a lot of these situations where these kids find s in bad situations and for that I would tell people to kind of stay away from this type of life um I don't want to oppose my will we all going to experience what we going to experience but I can't tell you the consequences to this type of Lifestyle could be very dear you heard ethal a lot of people don't get to make it where I made it and Escape that lifestyle that could have put me away or could have put me in the dirt I mean so here as a Living testament to tell you that these consequences are terrible the odds on you making it out of that life in a positive manner are very slim I mean but if you are in that life and you taking it as a Brotherhood and try to uplift your brothers I know there's a lot of people around you that are doing a lot of [ __ ] that that that that that's very crazy you know what I mean if you're a part of that and you got the positive minder then you try to uplift your brother and instill some positivity within them because it's very cold out here so I've always been curious bro like so when that when you you you start getting immersed you know or Affiliated in the gang life how does that affect the conversation at home with your parents like your mom your dad and just the domestic you know Dynamics I a't grow my parents I was a grown man since I was like 15 I made my own money since I was like 16 my grandmother left me in high school man I was raising my Sisters by myself in the projects I hustle every I ever got in my life that's why music saved my life I was so grateful to be able to be next to cam and him getting a deal at such a very young age to be able to still be making money off that [ __ ] right now you were U anr for Warner uh music group yeah I was the director of anr for Warner Music Group um years ago uh shouts to Kevin L shouts to Leo Cohen for giving me the opportunity um great opportunity uh I excelled at it extremely very young with a lot of power but didn't understand what I had at hand um didn't have too many people in my corner that were telling me the things that I should have been doing with that type of position as opposed to some type of weird way be hating you know I mean so that's what happened but as you get older you learn you learn and you move on who did you discover while you were in that position uh I would tell you a story I I know I've helped try s uh they come to tra songs that you know today he's always in he's always in we know why no n but he was a young kid at the time and uh they were actually going to cut him from the label we had a big uh um it's like uh one of them uh some events they be doing not the talent shows the uh well was something like that all the artists had to come perform and then they pretty much didn't know that they was on a Cho and block at the time when I was an executive and and he was one of the artists that they were going to cut and I remember Kevin L specifically ask me yo what we should do with him I'm about to cut him I don't know what to do with him and when I heard him uh singing and I saw him perform I was like this is this is one artist you should keep and did that and now we all tra songs on so many dope ass records is it true you could have signed Drake yeah I had a chance to sign uh I had a chance to do business with Drake um through Allan grum blat um when I was doing business at cotch um it was a different era I didn't understand what Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he show me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah understand everybody going at my guy I understand the hate man the hate is so phenomenal it's just how this game go man this game is so tricky man these [ __ ] just like females in this game we ain't going to get into that man there's a lot of uh but wait wait wait so so with Drake like are you are you seeing him perform like try songs or like you just heard of the guy just a conversation Allan called me about signing a kid let me hear some of his music um and I was like the kid know how to rap but I don't know what to do with him his image is crazy and him couple years later heard him on a Wheezy mixtape going crazy I was like wow this kid is about to go wham inside of this business and he sure did and you're know trying to call Weezy like yo man I gotta get that kid or something n he was already signed a young money and jcole did you miss on jcole as well I could have signed J Cole bro jcole was in the studio with me every day and at that point jcole I he's he remind me of a knockoff Drake and not to say it like that but that's who he sounded like he came to my studio every day rapping to these Drake beats rapping like Drake Cadence like Drake he could rap his ass off yeah you heard yeah but it was already a drake out there he had the Caesar it was different like two lightskinn [ __ ] might not K when raing the same but you never know what you got in front of you man you dig and those are lessons I I've took with me to moving forward when I see artists and and I hate artists I always give them more than just hearing just just I got to I got to I gotta try to capture the whole picture I make sure I just don't you mean so I don't miss nothing else because I've missed a few people and I've helped a few people um gain a lot of success in in my time in this industry whether it been by me having a meeting with them or me having influence on them or you know I mean so you know and there's never like any animosity like Jake Cole or Drake never came up to be like yo you could have signed me look at me now bro I mean me and Drake is cool as [ __ ] um I see J Cole I don't think he I mean I don't think that's no he some [ __ ] he might want to keep to himself not to be like that sh the co he not that type of artist he's not a you I mean yeah you did I look I look at as we can see I want to mention an artist who like I'm really fond of like I think this guy's [ __ ] amazing musically talented everything that he touched like turned to Gold who's that uh kid k bro K Cy yeah yeah did you help him with his career yeah I birth K Cy wow J me how so bro bir them nobody would have know who K Cy was at all if I a jump on this remix record but it wasn't even remix he wasn't even a nobody like I tell a story all the time I had a inter used to work for me said he got some dudes that do videos they would like to do a video for me told them come let me see they work they show me their videos the first video they showed me was of the kid Cy record he's on the top of a roof some simple video the record sound more wavy than the opportunity for them to do a video I'm like well if you'll get me the beat to this record I Remix this record and then y'all can shoot the video to that record wow and that's what they did and then um the radio station ripped the record off of YouTube and start playing it at Hot 97 and K Cy was born bro why do you think especially about kid Cy cuz from him when I listen to music right it wasn't really no no other kid Cy record besides the one that I was on yeah man he's not in they don't play his records where I be at at all not to be funny wow bro and we listen to him like all that day and night you know remember only record I know yeah it's the only record I know unless it's like a pop record that everybody know and I and I'm even not paying attention to it but he don't his records don't get played nowhere that i' be at not like that unless I go into a different farm and that's the type of music they playing in one of these funny clubs that play fist pump music and pop music he's not into like you dig like they don't play his music in the clubs I'll be at maybe in Vegas and [ __ ] like that but that's not like they not pumping this [ __ ] in live they not pumping this [ __ ] in Atlanta they not pumping this [ __ ] down the Stafford room or you know what I mean like they I'm not saying nothing like that but I don't hear it in the strip clubs I don't hear like you know what I mean so but he's a very successful person with some of the greats like Kanye to put him in a position to win and [ __ ] like that and I think he's way more better as an actor than he is a musician and that's just my POS that's just my opinion he did I seen him in the movie uh about the race car [ __ ] where he was F the playe like he got a lot of Charisma and [ __ ] like that on on camera for what I could see and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean bro I mean for you as Jim Jones to to see these kids you're introduced to them by an intern and then to hop onto that song it's something selfless you know to just give these unknown kids an opportunity of sharing a song with you where do you think that selflessness comes from how was that unknown kid I'm still an unknown kid anytime I get an opportunity that's an opportunity I should be able to give to somebody else bro the fact that you could even come to our podcast shout out man yeah man you don't even know us exactly what you're saying yeah know us what's his name I don't it's fine you know remember those kids who who did the video for him anyway you know remember I remember like that kids that got the biggest African podcast I'm definitely going to know like them is my guys right family right there appreciate I really mean that that sincerely and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean I I bump in too many people in my life and been across too many people in my journey to actually remember everybody's name but the face and the cause and I mean BR I want to understand right the first time you came up with the concept For Love and Hip Hop where were you what was happening that um that was something like uh me and Christy she had opportunity to do uh her own reality show um and actually fell through and that kind of she was kind of she wanted to do that I can see she was eager about doing that when it fell through kind you know I mean [ __ ] with her mood and [ __ ] like that so so so so so the initial concept what was it was just Chrissy just showing like what's life the initial concept was about she had her own thing going on about a group of women that was supposed to do a reality show had nothing to do with me yeah that [ __ ] fell through she lost that opportunity to end up not going people have been begging me to do reality TV for past couple years at the time and I and you reality TV gold man I refused to do it yeah and then when that happened I was like all right I got I'll do this for you and we'll make it about you and females that have to that are involved with artist such as myself and show what the relationship side is when you're dealing with a high-profile artist and you know what I mean how so that's how that started bro and that thing became a monster super super monster like it's still big till this day bro 100% so do you have like uh ownership in that we we were link a all that you know at that time when maybe the second season we just in a position where we refuse to compromise our dignity for anyone or any dollar and sometimes it be like that you know what I mean um but ain't no stress off my back T my hat to him you no but but but we got to talk about that because you see like this podcast um it's blackowned right it's just me and a couple of other people that are involved in the podcast right and we're always striving for ownership so a lot of um Brands and investors have come to try to buy the podcast and we say know cuz like we believe in ownership and telling the story the way we want to tell it right so what went wrong in that because as a hustler I believe like that's your also end goal MH um it wasn't something that I was just a lot of different layers and [ __ ] like that and I was too worried about doing other things and we had the opportunity to gain all ownership 50% of the whole TV show and all that but it still wasn't worth GE bro that's insane you just let go like that yeah bro it's your brain child bro there is no Love and& Hip Hop without you bro I still got a brain you heard yeah those are for people that don't have a brain that lack creativity people that steal things from you lack what you don't have remember that yeah whether it's money whether it's creativity whatever it is they lack what you don't have ultimately they steal from you you heard I mean we didn't even know C beef if it wasn't for Love and& Hip Hop right yeah yeah yeah definitely yeah bro you gave birth to so many many people man like VI their careers that's the god in me that's why I'm always going to be good yeah she man so any other shows that you're working on like in the pipeline that you want to do I was telling you I working on um a late night show a late night um a late night variety show live in studio audience hopefully we'll be filming in about 40 to 60 days um beautiful concept I do I do believe people going enjoy the show um like I was saying I can't do um a podcast is too personal for me and [ __ ] like that and me watching these podcasts um dealing with these artists me myself don't have the temperament for it you know what I mean um I [ __ ] I T my hat to y'all to have to deal with artists such as myself cuz you never know what type of mood they going to come in you know what I me some of these artists have a air to them where they feel like they better than most and they would never sit and have tea with the with the maintenance guy you heard me myself me going to maintenance guy going to smoke blunts before I get on stage [Music] I live my life and and and currently uh before we let you go man what do you think about the state of hip-hop cuz like statistically numbers wise it's not looking good man e beats has played all over New York now there's now the pianos this is this is what they want you to do this is how to get us to go against each other it's all under the same culture umbrella it's afro music ref I'm a piano I'm a piano explain that what do you mean by that bro yeah R&B what do you mean by that ultimately it's all from under the same origin and creativity of the same person from the same colors is all our thing n but let's be honest Jimmy hip-hop hasn't involved bro when I was listening to Eminem what do you want mean what do you mean hip-hop hasn't evolved you guys are still rapping about the same stuff it don't you you missing the point of what hip-hop is yeah hip-hop has evolved to a point that you can be the music genres that you're told them about can be noticed you think that if there was a hip hop that I'm a piano would be noticed or afro Beach would be noticed think about that and not to take nothing away from y because you always have culture and yes that music might be big within the continent of Africa yeah right but to cross over to American Fame and commercialism you don't think that the hip-hop culture played a big part in that that's that that's a different argument now you want to have a different argument I'm telling you the semantics of where we going with this you dig like you talking about uh the the hip hop music is damn percentage that's how they want us to think when it's really not cuz we all uplifting each other you heard you think that the country music that's going on in the black people winning is not because of the hip-hop culture no no no I think no one is disputing that however so then when you say hip-hop numbers are down and damn for who no I'm talking about I know what you're talking about but damn for who tell me who it's down for because I'm still making the money I make yeah I do believe there's still a lot of artist that's making a shitload of money that they make I don't think it went down for them yeah you know what I mean but I understand what you're talking about they say the numbers and then rock and roll genre might be up like I don't really you heard like that's I'm into this business you heard and it's always up for us you heard cuz this is a business we make money out of nothing it's never a downside to this okay and and that's why I'm saying I think we're having two different conversations here cuz the conversation I'm having is I'm having I'm having right is that in as much as he's saying yeah the numbers are down because they orchestrated and whatever I get that right but also that's why I asked do you think Hip-hop has evolved cuz I grew up on hip-hop right and the same things um quote unquote you guys were rapping about in the '90s how can hipop how can hip hop evolved in the same thing that Africa been Africa been going on since the '90s aren't y going still going through the same thing we are huh we are so how could the music evolve when the music ref the time ah okay get you real stories what you want us to rap about [ __ ] that that we don't have ah we talk about [ __ ] we dream about all the time that's the good The Good Life the colorin the Ros we talk about but the truth is how the music going to change when our position hasn't changed when we still going through the same [ __ ] we've been going through okay and y'all being from Africa should know that more than we know that yeah that's facts that's fact go about that own Cod yeah yeah yeah yeah you know are bro that's a valid fact but how do you feel man like you've come from an era where you guys when what you you said in your raps I mean evolved as far as dition as far as what we rap about cuz we still stuck in the same place but as a business it has evolved to one of big time yeah yeah biggest big time money making machines you can attach yourself to this made some of the richest individuals whether you're the rapper the lawyer the executive like that's true you know what I mean the supply chain but then I think that's why you know when you get the likes of a wz coming out and Kendrick Lamar they stand out like a sore thumb because like they are rapping about but that's what music is about to stand out for those who that want to look like everybody they don't get nowhere why you think Dip set was so successful sucessful yeah because we stood out on purpose we don't want to look like or H or sound like no one else m we want yall to above all see us when we walk in the building and hear us when we get on that [ __ ] mic you heard why would you guys the diplomats I never like where did that come from the diplomats the name the diplomats yeah we diplomats oh ah okay that sounded cool no we diplomats we are Harlem diplomats and we take it as that you heard we go to the Embassy when we land in countries you heard all right okay okay okay I I sort of get that bro so in the business and how you still making money right now like from music just like how is it royalties damn you asking a lot of questions bro no I want to know bro I'm so I've got so many questions I want to ask you bro I'll tell you this music is supposed to be used so you can make as much ancillary dollars as you can because the music ain't promised everybody 15 minutes of fame ranges from a small 15 minutes of fame to a run like we having within that minute the 15 minutes the fame you better do a lot of other things to secure your bag because music is not going to be thing you be able to get paid off forever unless you're the DRS and the J that's not even 1% that's you know what I mean so you think about that so you better have some hustle you better learn how to you better have some business sense you better put your credit in order you better do a few things to secure you if you are artist [ __ ] leverage powerful penda yeah man how do you feel man when these kids these days wrap up about you know trying to act tough and rap about stuff they never done like you guys red about stuff you lived I mean I do believe a lot of these kids are going through a lot of [ __ ] that we went through and then a lot of the kids are talking about [ __ ] that they see but most of the kids are all growing up in the same community that all of that [ __ ] is going on so who tells them they don't have the right to talk about [ __ ] that they're not doing when that's still [ __ ] that they're seeing oh sure Ah that's powerful but the problem I have a problem when they rapping like they did it but they just R from somebody else's Vantage Point understand that but most of these artists that you've seen in the game some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I pretty firm in his in in his music that I'm a believer that he did some of that [ __ ] he can talk about just me I don't know you possibilities are possibilities but some things just seem correct you know mean I can't tell you for sure cuz it is music you know what I mean but some things seem correct [ __ ] man bro you got to come out to man you got to you know we haven't had a proper uh hip-hop concert in sa like since 50 N since you are come on back to the city does concerts man ah those are for old people empd the bigest artist in South Africa right now Hip-Hop Hip-Hop uh there's a guy called nastyc but nesty came here he doesn't know know you f poopa who's that nah F poopa Nigerian West African artist massive he used to pop not now for real still massive bigger than like ber boyo still it's different type of music oh stadiums is 50 60,000 people like what is this following this gu what's his name f poop F poop I don't know him bro he's from Nigeria yeah yeah yeah yeah Nigerian Prett pretty big yeah humongous bro how big was was 50 Cent bro like during his Reign man like how big was 50 Cent [ __ ] retardedly big it wasn't nothing bigger than him was Drake before Drake was dring he was oh [ __ ] he did it like it was like 50 was on a run that he never even touched the club bro like [ __ ] never seen him in the club he only did Arenas I never knew too many artist that just did that you dig like the [ __ ] was super massive every [ __ ] Rec he came out with was was going platinum and I'm just telling you the facts you heard and I always got to speak factual no matter how I feel about a person the [ __ ] was on top Super on top it was no way to knock him off his d i remember Jay-Z dropped the diss track on you did you guys resolve that beef I think you were not happy with him as the president of De jam oh man um we never really had a beef um we had some feuds back and forth through the situations that were going on over other people um and me being who I am I had to hold my ground um but to know that he actually talked about me in multiple of his records mean that I was pretty big in his eyes you dig true true cuz I didn't hear him talk about too many people in his career and if he did talk you talk about you on the record that meant something you know what I mean and I was then so for me that I I I took that like what it was like you dig like yeah J doesn't respond to take the time out to say my name you heard if I'm if I'm not that big of a deal to you you would never ever a am I am I right talk about a person you heard true it's it's a form of respect and ackowledge 100% am I right in saying a lot of [ __ ] are scared of Jay-Z bro cuz we interviewed Dam Ian I don't I don't know I'm not a lot of [ __ ] you heard I'm a man so I couldn't I I couldn't tell you that you heard I ain't scared to nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that that that dentist yeah the dentist got me there you heard you can walk in you could walk we about to fight right now you a dentist walk in you got it you got it like you got it bow down you got it I don't want no smoke let me get out of here M fact word Jimmy before you go man uh what beefs did you have so you had something beef with Jay-Z right no man I just told you we had some feuds stemming from that's beef bro stemming from other things that going on um my problem like it was all part of Us coming up in the game and things were happening we were signing a Rockefeller cam was sign a Rockefeller actually then we got opportunity to Diplomat records um the split between uh Jay and Dame came um artist took sides some took the J side some took the the Dame side which side were you on we was on the Dame side OB Dash yeah Dame Dash that's do you think Dame Dash is misunderstood bro huh you think Dame Dash is misunderstood um too smart for his own good I get that yeah if you had the opportunity again you sometimes being the smartest person in the room could be held against you especially when you want everybody to know that you're the smartest person in the room yeah yeah yeah and I get given a second chance would you still side with Dam never you wouldn't never whoa I never signed a d at all that was no no no like sided with him took his side oh give a second chance I wouldn't have sided with none of them I would we would haveed our [ __ ] business but you learned that with age yeah you heard we had no business butting into that because it wasn't a street beef and this wasn't some [ __ ] that had to do with us ultimately we were holding our [ __ ] down and [ __ ] like that but business-wise if we would if we knew what we knew now we would let them get into that they self y'all can handle that because we got records to put out and music to make and we got our own record label to run you dig and this my hinder what we got going on by us taking sides and that's why I tell people now even when people seeing all the Diplomat [ __ ] like y bro don't don't get in to taking sides with me and my bro because you never know how that might end up and if it end up to a point where we do figure out our situation then I'm looking at you funny now me and you got forever you heard you dig and there are plenty of people that did that and plenty people that didn't and plenty people that showed the same amount of love that he showed to me that it showed to cam when we were going through our imaginary situations and [ __ ] like that cuz it's all imaginary when you know you can figure figure it out now it's a saying that like don't just be in people's business when especially when they've beef and take sides cuz and I I had to learn that a lot I had took me a long time to learn that because of how we come up in the Cod that they supposedly treat us in teach us in the street and [ __ ] like that but sometimes that's not the smallest thing that we can do and then uh push a t did you ever beef with him nah that was some [ __ ] that we was on record um he did some [ __ ] I did some [ __ ] you dig that was it I never followed that I didn't even know did you know there's a pusher T me I ain't got no just know I don't know I know you're from I know you're from Africa and [ __ ] like that but people don't play with me yeah for real and I don't I don't play with people this ain't no playground you heard this is the street it's two ways don't get caught up in a yellow line it's going to be hard to cross bro yeah you heard no I don't trust me I'm from Africa but I saw what happened at the airport so that [ __ ] escalated yeah [ __ ] that was self-defense man God yo bro it looked like that guy was just messing with you bro I wish that could have never happened cuz I was trying to avoid that by all cause but [ __ ] happened sometime man you dig and definitely not not going to allow anybody do anything to me at all bro when I saw that video right like I don't know I just met you today right but I saw when you lifted that guy from the escalator threw him down he literally just went on survival mode bro like it's like there was a button that you switched on and you just like I don't [ __ ] care but yeah yeah no I mean no that's a button that I choose not to push you heard yeah exactly like you can go there quickly I choose to show restraint for a lot of reasons in my life and sometimes it's hard to you dig but where I'm at in life right now I choose positivity or all the other things that come out my way because I know how it is to be negative I was once that negative person that was very aggressive and ready to do something to to you over the minimal alistic of things and [ __ ] like that so I'm blessed to be here to try to be able to show restraint and so so the guy so the guy at the airport you guys on the same plane yeah we on the same plane so you don't have a private jet no I don't have a private jet I'm not a rich man come on Jimmy you made so much money over the years but anyway so you're in the plane what's he what's this guy saying to you like um I don't know man just [ __ ] happens I know just the started from the plane just know that what you see happen on so it starts on the plane you restrain yourself you're like all right cool my dog say whatever you want to say yeah when he gets to the airport I mean the escalator that's when I think he starts hitting you or something right yeah something like that he tried to do something like that and that's what we see man but like I said this is not something that I want to glorify it's not you think he knows who you are um if if he didn't he know now no I'm I'm sorry see sorry cuz some people just provoke I believe he was he was trolling a little bit and things like that which is cool you I mean I'm if if you in New York not time 10 you do know who I am so you know I believe it was a bit of that but God bless man hopefully that they all right hopefully the old man um cool you dig like are you spiritual cuz you mentioned God a lot man yeah I'm very spiritual very spiritual very spiritual I've been my whole family is spiritual and what does that mean in an American sense cuz um us as African for me it means a lot of different things um I was told what the church was as a young age as they drag you to church every Sunday your grandmother your moms and your family and things like that and you really don't understand what that is from that young but as you get older and you go through certain things and you make it through certain things you understand that there is a God and everybody has a relationship with their God different and sometimes going to church doesn't mean that you love your God any less or he loves you any less you dig and you say spiritual I'm very spiritual I say my prayers as much as I can sometime two three four times in a day you dig man doesn't take away from what I do and who I am because I'm still in the line for everything else everybody is in but I know every day that I'm able to wake up and every day I'm able to make a dollar and every day I'm able to keep living the life that I am I should be thankful you heard cuz that's not just me that's a higher vibration that's definitely a God you dig and I'm well aware that I've escaped many things in life that Lord knows I should not be here but then again I should be here cuz he put here for a reason he gives his toughest battles to his strongest people what the Bible say you heard and I've made it through some very tough battles which are minimal to some of the people that I had next to me in their battles you know what I mean so it's like we all got to figure it out Jim Jones thank you so much man and thanks to God for bringing you here man definitely I appreciate for making time for us bro thank you man we appreciate you tired when you got you I appreciate the fact that you could even make it man got any last question yeah man bro you said you've gone through some tough battles and you mentioned how you lost your dad at like 26 but also that you you pretty much raised yourself from the age of 15 you know from that relationship or lack of it like has it affected how you father your children 100% this made me the best father I could be but me my relationship with my father was always a great one even though he wasn't there because every day he wasn't I love them even more I wasn't one of them kids that was bitter you dig I understand that everybody went through something and at that age what he was going through there was a lot of drug addiction and I knew that from a very young age I understood what drugs was and how they were tearing up my family I never held that against my father and I was just blessed able to get back with him before he passed away so he could see that his son was making something out of himself at that time I was already signed to her uh we think we just got the Rockefeller deal so it was a very big deal for me to be able to get back with my father to show him that me somebody that you should be proud of and I know him looking down right now got be like damn I did that so you know and that's how I feel but then in turn TR here my son I don't you know I mean like I just you know mean I pride myself on making sure that I I turned my son into somebody that was way better than I could ever be you oh man yeah that's my guy shout out to you man is your son still wearing Crocs to you br he's a Croc guy you heard yeah Crocs for Life bro Crocs for Life jumping out the beam with a fresh paer Crocs on I don't want to stand him Jimmy before you go your top five rappers all time my top five rappers of all you got to give us your top five bro yeah Tupac definitely Jay-Z Drake um Drake he not like us by default of course um rock cam no Eminem No No whoa not even big you from NY and not to take nothing away from him he's extremely nice it's retardedly nice when it comes to rap but I listen to artists that kind of you know I mean do something for the life that I live and kind of what I've been through and most of these artist or artist that I'm talking about people that you know what I mean like [ __ ] better stop hating on my boy Drake all of a sudden all this Drake land I get it I get it you ain't like us let's not do that let's not forget the 15 years he been spanking [ __ ] around this [ __ ] all all all over this [ __ ] all the alley he been giving most of these artists that are now seeming to be turning on them let's you know let's not some of them gave him their best hits let's not forget the big picture here and [ __ ] like but what the hip-hop culture and this game is built on competition so I yeah but what is he with it you heard you better put your best foot forward but what has Drake given back to the culture oh that you so love here we go um what is he giving back to the culture I seen him take a lot of people on tour and turn them even richer than they already was I I seen him give a lot of people hits that they would have never had if he wouldn't have got on a record things for the culture that wouldn't have happened in turn records that we would have never knew about him to record that the culture love and things like that I mean he's not from here Canada from the hood I don't believe he owes America too much but the monster that give back to where he's from maybe we should ask about what has he done in Canada giving back to his community as opposed to what he giving back to the culture of the United States when this is not where he's from and I think that's the Divide right there now if we talk about what he's done in Canada and if it's not up to par then maybe we can talk about oh you dig but that's I think that's for the people of Canada you dig like yeah cuz but it's the people of America in the hood who made him of course you heard about but that he didn't grw up in America he didn't grew up here you heard so if you was an artist from Africa yeah like boy yeah do you think bnab boy has responsibility what do Niger of United stes n I'm taking it back home bro super duper big yes but that's what people then will call a culture vulture cuz you come into a space you know do what the people of that space do benefit from them is is is you understand what we doing like it's bro it's not because he's not take so he's not taking benab boy is Nigerian it's a Nigerian culture that is now popular in America so Drake took an American culture and enriched himself but what he's saying is that he doesn't owe anything to America cuz he's not from yet right okay right yeah I mean [ __ ] he's got no obligation Fair argument he got no obligation Fair argument yeah like he lived if he lived like I don't I don't that's how I see it you heard like that's how I see it you dig but all these [ __ ] we talking about are filthy filthy filthy rich off the opinions of men you heard what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never but what I'm just trying to tell you is how this game is played yeah you heard yeah geez man the more we talk the more they get paid the loser still gets paid too if there is a loser I don't think there's a loser when they all getting Millions off of this [ __ ] I don't think I mean like and I understand end all be all in the whole circle of it but I'm I've been in this [ __ ] for so long I'm miss you can see the politics of really get you to understand of what's really going on and [ __ ] like that this [ __ ] don't pay me a dollar to talk about it yeah hey man how tight you with Joe Bon he calls us those African guys with numbers oh yeah yeah yeah Jo this my guy buts what's up man he cool yeah he's an instigator definely know how to get under people's skin yeah I've known Joan for so long [ __ ] like that um I'm proud of him put himself in his position a whole new Lane to make a shitload of money um where it stem from the culture this what I'm talking about all the ancillary things that you need to get going on if are a artist of some type of success you got to use that to get where you want look at Joe used his startom and rap no matter what it was to able to finesse a whole new Lane of podcasting that true he's pretty big in damn near one of the forefathers of it from our culture right y'all started before him or after him we started after him but now we have more numbers than him hey doesn't matter no numbers do matter I mean no J and get num I'm cool with that but you won't be never be the considered the forefather of this whole no no no no no no no you dig 100% yeah it's Jo Joan numbers is cool I'm cool with that you get paid and I know what's a race you might be number one you heard yeah yeah but you still never be the forefather always going to have that under him like I've created this Lane for your how I feel about Ling hip hop yeah of course I got that under my belt that's mine y can never say that was yours at all yeah okay how much money you made off of it and [ __ ] like that at the end of the day you it's mine you heard Still My still mine so we always ask anybody any guest that we get on the show in closing what do you want to be remembered as man when it's all said and done I want I want to be remembered I want I want them to know that I gave more than I took because I was able to take a lot in my time amen just like that sh hey man I wish you put me on love and& hip-hop bro they got the African love of Hip Hop they got Jamaican love of Hip Hop they got they got any type of Love of Hip Hop we need the South African love of Hip Hop thanks Jim man shout out thank you bro I appreciate you man thank you we appreciate podcast and chill we out of here man boom peace welcome to Black excellenc do not fear for if you do just sip on some Grand and if you still do ask ourselves what would M [Music] do when they ask you do not fear for if you do just say an TV this is the the medicine of censorship this is the pill which one is that one podcast and chill	other so naturally testosterone testosterone wins in a lot of these situations where these kids find s in bad situations and for that I would tell people to kind of stay away from this type of life um I don't want to oppose my will we all going to experience what we going to experience but I can't tell you the consequences to this type of Lifestyle could be very dear you heard ethal a lot of people don't get to make it where I made it and Escape that lifestyle that could have put me away or could have put me in the dirt I mean so here as a Living testament to tell you that these consequences are terrible the odds on you making it out of that life in a positive manner are very slim I mean but if you are in that life and you taking it as a Brotherhood and try to uplift your brothers I know there's a lot of people around you that are doing a lot of [ __ ] that that that that that's very crazy you know what I mean if you're a part of that and you got the positive minder then you try to uplift your brother and instill some positivity within them because it's very cold out here so I've always been curious bro like so when that when you you you start getting immersed you know or Affiliated in the gang life how does that affect	-5	5	2	other so naturally testosterone testosterone wins in a lot of these situations where these kids find s in bad situations and for that I would tell people to kind of stay away from this type of life um I don't want to oppose my will we all going to experience what we going to experience but I can't tell you the consequences to this type of Lifestyle could be very dear you heard ethal a lot of people don't get to make it where I made it and Escape that lifestyle that could have put me away or could have put me in the dirt I mean so here as a Living testament to tell you that these consequences are terrible the odds on you making it out of that life in a positive manner are very slim I mean but if you are in that life and you taking it as a Brotherhood and try to uplift your brothers I know there's a lot of people around you that are doing a lot of [ __ ] that that that that that's very crazy you know what I mean if you're a part of that and you got the positive minder then you try to uplift your brother and instill some positivity within them because it's very cold out here	I've always been curious bro like so when that when you you you start getting immersed you know or Affiliated in the gang life how does that affect	-5,-3,4	5,6,2	-5	-3	4	5	6	2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr730VmL-lk	4,054	rr730VmL-lk	2024-06-27 00:00:00	like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano no well Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he showed me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah just understand everybody going there my guy I understand the hate exactly what you're saying yeah bro what's his name I don't it's fine you remember those some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I ain't scared of nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that the dentist yeah dentist got me there what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never [Music] [Music] yo Jimmy you do not look like you want to be here bro like someone forced you to be it's like you have to do that par they're the biggest podcast in Africa you have to be there I never look like I want to be nowhere man you got to part of me but congratulations to yall having the biggest podcast in Africa that that that's very big Africa being one of the biggest continents in the world a lot of people over there shut up man why you so tired bro crazy weekend I've been working all weekend shows different states traveling Planes Trains automobiles you know how I be a little bit too much partying yeah road kill it's tough but what's up how y'all feeling I'm good bro I literally saw um I saw your video uh yesterday for your new single the one you shot in Miami two turn temp yeah yeah how you feel about it bro that [ __ ] is lit man looks like our Vibe bro cuz we've been to Miami myself and and my partner but we never like experienced the Miami night life we were playing in Florida yeah we're DJing in Florida but two South Africans like the diaspora then West Palm Beach as well yeah DJ also yeah like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano what it's a genre it's called a piano no no cuz I'm a piano even you heard like you saw he did the whole Keys thing it has nothing to do with the piano that's where it started but has nothing to do with it these days when when I met charlot man he said the exact same thing he's like oh so you're a podcaster I'm like yeah and then you DJs I'm like no I play I'm a Pian like you're a Pianist man you one talented [ __ ] n it's a genre of music man what kind of genre is that like it's like slowed down house music with a lot of s that African influence that's the only way I can describe it so it's a it's a mix of a marriage house yeah a marriage of house music which originated here at Chicago and stuff and then we slowed it down created a sub genre called guo where guys were sort of rapping but very minimalist raps called guo then the kids were born like in the 2000s late '90s then created a whole meshup of those two genres and it's called Piano cuz a a lot of Americans think it's um afro beats it's not afro beats yeah a lot of the hence I avoided saying afro beats cuz AFR beats is from Nigeria and amap piano is far from afro beat afro beat borrows from am piano now where is amap piano originated from South Africa from the hoods from the Cassis yeah but when I when I was looking at your video bro uh the only thing in my mind was like bro what's a night like out with Jim Jones CU that [ __ ] look lit there [ __ ] everywhere bro um please please describe a night out in Miami with Jim so let's say we going to Miami right now I mean some nice are better than others but been doing it so long it's kind of like the the bare minimum for us to do in Miami just having fun but it still work at the same time like every every I'm I'm not just going out partying for no reason ni like that was we knew what we was kind of getting into we wanted to film a video so we knew we was going to ramp it up a bit take it to the to the highest form going crazy as we could but that actually happened to fall on a big weekend um and one of my dudes was celebrating so everything kind of happened for a reason but yeah Miami could take you for take you for a few a few trips man like okay so so so me and you we get in the car right I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm in Miami I hate you cuz you got a house there you stay there right yeah I got I got I got cribs there so I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm by the strip you know that Miami strip right yeah yeah yeah I mean see that's the thing about Miami when you come to visit Miami that's where people are know at like the strip and things like that I guess stand by Collins and ocean driveing all that people that live there don't really do the strip like that like you just you dig people congregate usually at night time and all the spots that usually go on down there um okay so we got security obviously you got to roll around with security right um yeah I mean that' be the safest thing for me to do so we get out the cut with security when you get to the bouncers are they letting us in cuz it's Jim Jones or are they checking our IDs cuz they've been checking our IDs just to buy beer here bro Che ID everywhere yeah everywhere yeah no I I don't think I produced my ID in since I was a teenager at clubs but yeah you won't need your ID when you with me so we walking in right yeah we going to get in oh do we have a section do we they going to give us a section VIP yeah they going to give us a section we going to get some bottles and let the night ensue got this thing called Power Hour you go to the club maybe like 2:45 to 3:45 in and out no sweat so what's the what's the purpose of that exercise the Power Hour yeah like why would you be in the cloud for an hour why would I be in a club for 4 hours it's Fu I mean I've been part I've been partying since I've been 14 I've been making money to party since I've been 18 I'm kind of burnt out so at this point I try to wait till the club is at the most popping or lest moment which is usually that hour right there and I get to enjoy everything that happened tonight and leave out of there and not be all burnt out what what does your wife say bro cuz you're married man you're surrounded by all these girls like you know I mean I'm going to worry about the women yeah is minimal to the money worry about the money more than anything so so a woman doesn't like give you grief when you come home I yeah you get you get grief all the time if you in a relationship no matter what you do if you had a job on Wall Street you get home you're going to get grief no around it you heard yeah there's women everywhere unless you work in the LGBT Club then you know I mean even there you still going to go home and get like it's no way around it you're going to get you know I mean like yeah so you've never had like been home and you had to explain like yo no man I was just doing music video it's just work like I don't know that good you going to explain yourself in every relationship and things like that I got a good woman at home who understands a job I have and things like that so for the most part but for the most part I'm a very responsible respectable person when when I'm in the streets and when I do have to interact with females and things like that yeah anyway H ladies and gentlemen welcome to another special edition of podcasting chill so CU yeah I am here we're chilling with the [ __ ] Legend Kings of Harlem please make some noise for Jim Jones Jim I gotta say bro I gotta say bro I'm going to be honest with you when I find that your name was GMO geloo gelo I'm like I'm like Jim Jones losing some G points here man what the [ __ ] is that I'm Puerto Rican and a rubian my pops is Puerto Rican the word gelo means William in English is a Spanish Spanish name cuz you know what I was thinking I was thinking that guy who does the show late night you know the short guy who does like the interviews with um this late night comedian man what are the late night shows oh man not uh bad with these oh gosh the late night guy bro uhri or something not Corin O'Brien no not Trevor Noah the other American guy man like uh old new no he's like jimm Kimel Jimmy Kimel jimy he's got that he's got that short guy his name is julo oh I don't I don't I don't got got me messed up I don't even really watch TV like that bro okay I'll be out chasing the money I ain't even got time to do that and if and if I do got some time I'm trying to get a little bit of rest or I'm thinking about money [ __ ] is crucial out here right now you better get to your dollar a lot of [ __ ] about to happen and if you ain't got no coins boy you going to be [ __ ] up you ever been to uh Puerto Rico yeah I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times yeah but business not for the Heritage part of it so like you don't know where like your your your parents were at Familiar of the place where my father's from but I never really got to do the whole go to give with my family understand the roots understand you know I mean like I didn't get to get to that part of it but I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times you find like that's important like to know you it's definitely important I had this um I did an interview not too long ago about um how important the roots are and get to know where my family from know I mean so we'll start to do that pretty soon so so so your dad you know you know your dad right yeah he's passed away oh okay God bless rest in peace what happened to him he passed away yeah like was it um medical thing or yeah natural causes oh damn like when you young or um maybe when I was uh 23 24 oh damn bro SED to hear that man maybe 26 right before my son passed right before my God bless right before my son Bor bro but you like 47 right now I look good for 47y old man no homo you know what I mean thank you very much like what was what's keeping you looking so good is it the yoga yeah a lot of yoga a lot of Pilates I stay in shape um I'm very uh very big on Fitness um work out like five six times a week um it's one of the best ways to stay young and have better chances of living a long life is that why you do it or maybe there's other purpose like you know a lot of people are in gym for their mental health I mean it's very it's very it's very therapeutic I will say that but my main goal is to look good of course but to give me better chances of living forever bro so how you got into rap um I don't know correct me if I'm wrong right but you used to skip church and go to the train station to to rap like no I never skipped Church to go on the train station and rap I skipped Church to go to the train station and go play video games and run the streets and do everything a bad little kid did from the streets of hollow when we was like S8 and n and things like that I don't know if you know about anything about the subway system in New York but that's the pathway system that get you to all five burrows and we definitely was on the subway which maybe we shouldn't have been but we was a little uh loose um for me rapping actually rapping didn't start later on in life to actually uh C and um they I got a deal and things like that and that was the first time me myself really thought about actually raing cuz I'll be honest with you like um dipet I don't really know much about dipet however I know about you guys individually like Cameron old boy like one of my favorite songs uh jul sna had hear that that was Cameron and Jules and jwes he both was on he both old boy and heon yeah why don't you jump on those tracks man those tracks are massive they was already done I was there for the making of both of them incredible tracks yeah and then how did dipit start start like how did you guys start the whole movement um organically kiss him Harem gr up together um talented kids Cam and Mason BL sh was they already was doing music um Everybody gradu graduated high school I didn't get to go to college they went to college they got kicked out they got kicked out they come moved in with me from that that was a uh foundation for them to D into the music you've been in the game for like 20 30 odd years right been in the game for since 1997 how would you describe the different eras of like um hip-hop right especially now cuz um obviously we all know about the Kendrick Lamar song they're not like us but I didn't know how big it was until I landed in in in America and it's like it's like a movement the video yeah it's like huge it's massive bro yeah it's a big record Kendrick did that shout out to Kendrick shout out to my boy Drake but what do you think about like the evolution of hip-hop in all the different areas you've been a part of what do you mean what do I think about it it's a great thing to be a part of something that um you could only dream of everybody doesn't get a chance to be in this game um I've been fortunate enough to be here for so many genres and errors and seen so many people come and go I've watched the smallest artist to the biggest artist who you thow will be here forever and going um I got stories for days I can tell you about um how I feel about it I feel great I feel blessed you know what I mean I feel lucky this [ __ ] don't it's not promised and for me to still be here is definitely a blessing so in the 90s what was the vibe like man like like what in the 90s as far as what in hip-hop yeah it was it was different um 90s was a great era um one of my favorite errors um that was the era we first first came outside um started to get out deal uh very aggressive era uh no social media um cell phones were just being born um everything that you seen you was something that you could grab on to um artists had to go to the towns we couldn't just get on your phone and music you had to go get you couldn't just have access to it so it was a it was it it was a hunt um you had to touch the Tails kiss babies do radio everything like it was just a different ER but who was around like during that time when you who was around like Tupac was did you like meet Tupac Tupac I didn't get to meet Tupac um Tupac passed away what 95 was that yeah right in big in '97 um no I got to see Tupac do a few times in Harlem um that was dope but um not Tupac passed away before we got to get in the record game but I've seen a lot of a lot of artists in my time from a young age to old age we were partying in clubs as teenagers before we even got a record deal and things like that like we were in clubs since high school and [ __ ] like that so any interactions with Big L he was from Harlem right yeah shouts to Big Al Big Al was definitely from Harlem um 139th NFL Big L um I was one of the Cam's uh close friends um actually put cam on a dope record that started to give uh Cam and bloodshed and and her mcgree her was already popping too but guy gave them some notice when it came to R so when you come out like who's who's popping at that time is it git is it mop D it's way before G when we came out I was like Eminem just dropped oh [ __ ] this is Slim Shady not M like Slim Shady I I remember that that was like cam had dropped and Eminem had dropped DMX had dropped Nori had dropped um Big Pun had dropped lud Chris Luda had just started coming out um Nelly Nelly down down baby yeah shouts to coola love um yeah that type of error shouts to shouts to Fat Joe shouts to Buster they was already in it uh Nas was already in it Jay start going crazy that's when he just started taking over with the 1 million 2 million 3 million 4 um yeah very competitive very edgy um lot of the big dogs um had real roots in the streets um especially in the streets of New York so that put that put a real Mystique on everything when it came to the music um all the events with topnotch um it just was a different feel man it was a heavy heavy dope boy era um this was before the drug dealers wanted to be Rappers that's when the rappers wanted to be drug dealers you know what I mean and and that Arrow was was a very dope high impact trenel and Russian it was a was a great error bro I saw an interview you did correct me if I'm wrong I might be paraphrasing but you mentioned a place called the tunnel or something where everybody would be and you guys were [ __ ] [ __ ] in the bathrooms please please describe that manest cuz a place like that couldn't exist right now bro with all this woke [ __ ] I mean yeah and the cancel cult I would say it was probably the greatest Club The Hip hopers have seen and it was during the 90s era it was the Golden Era um in New York they got you had stories about like Studio 54 in that era when everybody used all the biggest of big used to go to Studio 54 well the tunnel was what Studio 54 was to that era to our era and it didn't make so many people and nationalities and genres and just everybody was like a big pumbo all for the sake of the culture you had some of the flyest models to some of the biggest drug dealers biggest gang bangers I mean every former elicit street life you could think of was in the spot along with the biggest artists and rappers and actors and models that you could find into all athletes um it would definitely like that um and was this like per invite or just like anybody could Rock up there nah you couldn't just rock up there for this is '90s entry was like $100 first of all $100 for a club that was the first time we ever heard of it and that was a lot of money back then especially we probably started in '94 going there teenager so $100 was sto a lot of money in New York at the time sneakers wasn't even costing $100 um to get in the club you definitely had to be connected to know somebody or you had to wait on a long line that usually was a block long um they had like an Express line you could pay $100 to get on Express line that'll get you to the door quicker and then you pay your entry fee um streets was blocked off you was a big dog you was able to bring your cars down there I was able to bring like four five of them if I wanted to um yeah the club was just it was different man pull up to the door security they taking people's shoes off they searching your jacket twisting people inside out like they about to go on the Rikers Island I got to I gave security High files I never took my shoes off and not since high school I when we used go in high school we used to get our shoes taken off and things like that make you feel like you going to the cental bookings and [ __ ] like that so what gave you that clout that allowed you to bring four cars in when nobody or you had to be a big dog to bring four cars in when you could just give them a high five instead of removing your shoes and you're young by then like what gives you that CL I was a big dog since a small pup bro J yeah man what gave you those you know credentials at such a young age to suppos all these people cuz Dr Tre was there yeah you putting in four cars not removing shoes I was a good Lord Biden citizen everybody love Jim Jones even even the girls like would you just rock up they say let's go to the bathroom that's it yeah now that well yeah there was a lot of that going on they had a uh the layout was different first of all the club was a block long a whole city block um wow there was like three other four other clubs within the club or spots that look like clubs um the main floor was humongously big the DJ was like a a lifeguard Tower in the middle of the club um you go upstairs they had a VR big V PE upstairs and then go through a door it open up to the bathroom the bathroom was like a unisex Club [ __ ] had a big ass bar in the middle of the bathroom uh bunch of stalls lined up um that [ __ ] was like a hotel inside Lions cocaine everything yeah they was going down a lot of sex was going down there a lot of a lot of drugs was going down in there um yeah the tunnel was definitely uh a landmark to New York City when it comes to the clubs I I definitely um I always think about that club um it did a lot for me in my life um it gave me a lot of imagination when it came to to the culture and the things I was seeing from a young age as to where I want to be and the direction I want to go in yeah we was going there since high school so when you seeing people like Mike Tyson and all these people coming in big cheer on and just having their way as a kid go out got to go to school the next morning you you in school thinking about that [ __ ] like w man this school [ __ ] [ __ ] this school [ __ ] I need some money and I need to go to the tunnel that's all I want to [ __ ] do that's wild man now can you imagine because we in sa right we're looking at all the videos that you guys are pulling out there like we're looking at this lifestyle and then you F Track to 2024 right M and the P didy thing breaks out right I mean i' rather not even to get into that yeah just don't I rather the do I don't you know I mean like it's not it's not my business oh I mean like this you heard God bless it's too much n yeah and it's not me to have an opinion on certain things cuz I ain't perfect I've been through my own [ __ ] in life and I see a lot of people that have even this doing too much just know that I ain't perfect so I choose not to talk on certain [ __ ] that you know what I mean a lot of other people people been talking about I let them keep doing the talk and I got other [ __ ] to work on I'm trying to work on me being a better person yeah I respect I respect that man but were ever part of any gang or like you sounding like the F never hey we don't the F in South Africa man only PS I'm just playing with you yeah I've been affiliated with the bloods in New York City um ENT Tre um yeah so crazy have you ever been to sa like have you ever been to Africa or um I've been to Africa where did you go uh gaban gille damn G to perform there um I went to perform there but uh got some great friends there they actually had ran the country at the time this is before the big yeah yeah overtaking and stuff like that but I had a ball out there I got to go to an island called Pony um that was a dope experience as they took me to the jungles I got to see some of the indigenous people um it was like a a real um life Awakening like and I got to see how also the rich people live out there also like I got to see both sides like that you know what I mean it was it was a great experience I out there for like a week um I haven't been back since but yeah it was dope you never been to South Africa never been to South Africa bro so the reason why I asked that is because like yo bro like American culture has infiltrated South Africa like you can't believe like you know we got people worshiping you guys you know Jim Jones rappers and everything you so we've got rappers who rap just like you and youd say they're like Bloods and Crips but they've never they've never left sa you know cuz that's how influential uh the culture is right but from you when you see or hear that like what do you guys think like do you think is like some [ __ ] like or like leave don't don't follow the gang life you know what I mean oh as far as that is concerned um there's two sides to that this what you do as a gang member that turns it into something that becomes a crime or whatever that end but the Brotherhood part of it is what the most of us joined up for when we coming up in the hood and need that Brotherhood lean on somebody is that type of camaraderie that pretty much stood for and there's a lot of other great attributes that comes with affiliation or you becoming a part of a gang um it gets twisted up because we all come up in these urban communities and our back is against the wall we don't have no opportunities um it's very dormant uh we on top of each other so naturally testosterone testosterone wins in a lot of these situations where these kids find s in bad situations and for that I would tell people to kind of stay away from this type of life um I don't want to oppose my will we all going to experience what we going to experience but I can't tell you the consequences to this type of Lifestyle could be very dear you heard ethal a lot of people don't get to make it where I made it and Escape that lifestyle that could have put me away or could have put me in the dirt I mean so here as a Living testament to tell you that these consequences are terrible the odds on you making it out of that life in a positive manner are very slim I mean but if you are in that life and you taking it as a Brotherhood and try to uplift your brothers I know there's a lot of people around you that are doing a lot of [ __ ] that that that that that's very crazy you know what I mean if you're a part of that and you got the positive minder then you try to uplift your brother and instill some positivity within them because it's very cold out here so I've always been curious bro like so when that when you you you start getting immersed you know or Affiliated in the gang life how does that affect the conversation at home with your parents like your mom your dad and just the domestic you know Dynamics I a't grow my parents I was a grown man since I was like 15 I made my own money since I was like 16 my grandmother left me in high school man I was raising my Sisters by myself in the projects I hustle every I ever got in my life that's why music saved my life I was so grateful to be able to be next to cam and him getting a deal at such a very young age to be able to still be making money off that [ __ ] right now you were U anr for Warner uh music group yeah I was the director of anr for Warner Music Group um years ago uh shouts to Kevin L shouts to Leo Cohen for giving me the opportunity um great opportunity uh I excelled at it extremely very young with a lot of power but didn't understand what I had at hand um didn't have too many people in my corner that were telling me the things that I should have been doing with that type of position as opposed to some type of weird way be hating you know I mean so that's what happened but as you get older you learn you learn and you move on who did you discover while you were in that position uh I would tell you a story I I know I've helped try s uh they come to tra songs that you know today he's always in he's always in we know why no n but he was a young kid at the time and uh they were actually going to cut him from the label we had a big uh um it's like uh one of them uh some events they be doing not the talent shows the uh well was something like that all the artists had to come perform and then they pretty much didn't know that they was on a Cho and block at the time when I was an executive and and he was one of the artists that they were going to cut and I remember Kevin L specifically ask me yo what we should do with him I'm about to cut him I don't know what to do with him and when I heard him uh singing and I saw him perform I was like this is this is one artist you should keep and did that and now we all tra songs on so many dope ass records is it true you could have signed Drake yeah I had a chance to sign uh I had a chance to do business with Drake um through Allan grum blat um when I was doing business at cotch um it was a different era I didn't understand what Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he show me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah understand everybody going at my guy I understand the hate man the hate is so phenomenal it's just how this game go man this game is so tricky man these [ __ ] just like females in this game we ain't going to get into that man there's a lot of uh but wait wait wait so so with Drake like are you are you seeing him perform like try songs or like you just heard of the guy just a conversation Allan called me about signing a kid let me hear some of his music um and I was like the kid know how to rap but I don't know what to do with him his image is crazy and him couple years later heard him on a Wheezy mixtape going crazy I was like wow this kid is about to go wham inside of this business and he sure did and you're know trying to call Weezy like yo man I gotta get that kid or something n he was already signed a young money and jcole did you miss on jcole as well I could have signed J Cole bro jcole was in the studio with me every day and at that point jcole I he's he remind me of a knockoff Drake and not to say it like that but that's who he sounded like he came to my studio every day rapping to these Drake beats rapping like Drake Cadence like Drake he could rap his ass off yeah you heard yeah but it was already a drake out there he had the Caesar it was different like two lightskinn [ __ ] might not K when raing the same but you never know what you got in front of you man you dig and those are lessons I I've took with me to moving forward when I see artists and and I hate artists I always give them more than just hearing just just I got to I got to I gotta try to capture the whole picture I make sure I just don't you mean so I don't miss nothing else because I've missed a few people and I've helped a few people um gain a lot of success in in my time in this industry whether it been by me having a meeting with them or me having influence on them or you know I mean so you know and there's never like any animosity like Jake Cole or Drake never came up to be like yo you could have signed me look at me now bro I mean me and Drake is cool as [ __ ] um I see J Cole I don't think he I mean I don't think that's no he some [ __ ] he might want to keep to himself not to be like that sh the co he not that type of artist he's not a you I mean yeah you did I look I look at as we can see I want to mention an artist who like I'm really fond of like I think this guy's [ __ ] amazing musically talented everything that he touched like turned to Gold who's that uh kid k bro K Cy yeah yeah did you help him with his career yeah I birth K Cy wow J me how so bro bir them nobody would have know who K Cy was at all if I a jump on this remix record but it wasn't even remix he wasn't even a nobody like I tell a story all the time I had a inter used to work for me said he got some dudes that do videos they would like to do a video for me told them come let me see they work they show me their videos the first video they showed me was of the kid Cy record he's on the top of a roof some simple video the record sound more wavy than the opportunity for them to do a video I'm like well if you'll get me the beat to this record I Remix this record and then y'all can shoot the video to that record wow and that's what they did and then um the radio station ripped the record off of YouTube and start playing it at Hot 97 and K Cy was born bro why do you think especially about kid Cy cuz from him when I listen to music right it wasn't really no no other kid Cy record besides the one that I was on yeah man he's not in they don't play his records where I be at at all not to be funny wow bro and we listen to him like all that day and night you know remember only record I know yeah it's the only record I know unless it's like a pop record that everybody know and I and I'm even not paying attention to it but he don't his records don't get played nowhere that i' be at not like that unless I go into a different farm and that's the type of music they playing in one of these funny clubs that play fist pump music and pop music he's not into like you dig like they don't play his music in the clubs I'll be at maybe in Vegas and [ __ ] like that but that's not like they not pumping this [ __ ] in live they not pumping this [ __ ] in Atlanta they not pumping this [ __ ] down the Stafford room or you know what I mean like they I'm not saying nothing like that but I don't hear it in the strip clubs I don't hear like you know what I mean so but he's a very successful person with some of the greats like Kanye to put him in a position to win and [ __ ] like that and I think he's way more better as an actor than he is a musician and that's just my POS that's just my opinion he did I seen him in the movie uh about the race car [ __ ] where he was F the playe like he got a lot of Charisma and [ __ ] like that on on camera for what I could see and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean bro I mean for you as Jim Jones to to see these kids you're introduced to them by an intern and then to hop onto that song it's something selfless you know to just give these unknown kids an opportunity of sharing a song with you where do you think that selflessness comes from how was that unknown kid I'm still an unknown kid anytime I get an opportunity that's an opportunity I should be able to give to somebody else bro the fact that you could even come to our podcast shout out man yeah man you don't even know us exactly what you're saying yeah know us what's his name I don't it's fine you know remember those kids who who did the video for him anyway you know remember I remember like that kids that got the biggest African podcast I'm definitely going to know like them is my guys right family right there appreciate I really mean that that sincerely and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean I I bump in too many people in my life and been across too many people in my journey to actually remember everybody's name but the face and the cause and I mean BR I want to understand right the first time you came up with the concept For Love and Hip Hop where were you what was happening that um that was something like uh me and Christy she had opportunity to do uh her own reality show um and actually fell through and that kind of she was kind of she wanted to do that I can see she was eager about doing that when it fell through kind you know I mean [ __ ] with her mood and [ __ ] like that so so so so so the initial concept what was it was just Chrissy just showing like what's life the initial concept was about she had her own thing going on about a group of women that was supposed to do a reality show had nothing to do with me yeah that [ __ ] fell through she lost that opportunity to end up not going people have been begging me to do reality TV for past couple years at the time and I and you reality TV gold man I refused to do it yeah and then when that happened I was like all right I got I'll do this for you and we'll make it about you and females that have to that are involved with artist such as myself and show what the relationship side is when you're dealing with a high-profile artist and you know what I mean how so that's how that started bro and that thing became a monster super super monster like it's still big till this day bro 100% so do you have like uh ownership in that we we were link a all that you know at that time when maybe the second season we just in a position where we refuse to compromise our dignity for anyone or any dollar and sometimes it be like that you know what I mean um but ain't no stress off my back T my hat to him you no but but but we got to talk about that because you see like this podcast um it's blackowned right it's just me and a couple of other people that are involved in the podcast right and we're always striving for ownership so a lot of um Brands and investors have come to try to buy the podcast and we say know cuz like we believe in ownership and telling the story the way we want to tell it right so what went wrong in that because as a hustler I believe like that's your also end goal MH um it wasn't something that I was just a lot of different layers and [ __ ] like that and I was too worried about doing other things and we had the opportunity to gain all ownership 50% of the whole TV show and all that but it still wasn't worth GE bro that's insane you just let go like that yeah bro it's your brain child bro there is no Love and& Hip Hop without you bro I still got a brain you heard yeah those are for people that don't have a brain that lack creativity people that steal things from you lack what you don't have remember that yeah whether it's money whether it's creativity whatever it is they lack what you don't have ultimately they steal from you you heard I mean we didn't even know C beef if it wasn't for Love and& Hip Hop right yeah yeah yeah definitely yeah bro you gave birth to so many many people man like VI their careers that's the god in me that's why I'm always going to be good yeah she man so any other shows that you're working on like in the pipeline that you want to do I was telling you I working on um a late night show a late night um a late night variety show live in studio audience hopefully we'll be filming in about 40 to 60 days um beautiful concept I do I do believe people going enjoy the show um like I was saying I can't do um a podcast is too personal for me and [ __ ] like that and me watching these podcasts um dealing with these artists me myself don't have the temperament for it you know what I mean um I [ __ ] I T my hat to y'all to have to deal with artists such as myself cuz you never know what type of mood they going to come in you know what I me some of these artists have a air to them where they feel like they better than most and they would never sit and have tea with the with the maintenance guy you heard me myself me going to maintenance guy going to smoke blunts before I get on stage [Music] I live my life and and and currently uh before we let you go man what do you think about the state of hip-hop cuz like statistically numbers wise it's not looking good man e beats has played all over New York now there's now the pianos this is this is what they want you to do this is how to get us to go against each other it's all under the same culture umbrella it's afro music ref I'm a piano I'm a piano explain that what do you mean by that bro yeah R&B what do you mean by that ultimately it's all from under the same origin and creativity of the same person from the same colors is all our thing n but let's be honest Jimmy hip-hop hasn't involved bro when I was listening to Eminem what do you want mean what do you mean hip-hop hasn't evolved you guys are still rapping about the same stuff it don't you you missing the point of what hip-hop is yeah hip-hop has evolved to a point that you can be the music genres that you're told them about can be noticed you think that if there was a hip hop that I'm a piano would be noticed or afro Beach would be noticed think about that and not to take nothing away from y because you always have culture and yes that music might be big within the continent of Africa yeah right but to cross over to American Fame and commercialism you don't think that the hip-hop culture played a big part in that that's that that's a different argument now you want to have a different argument I'm telling you the semantics of where we going with this you dig like you talking about uh the the hip hop music is damn percentage that's how they want us to think when it's really not cuz we all uplifting each other you heard you think that the country music that's going on in the black people winning is not because of the hip-hop culture no no no I think no one is disputing that however so then when you say hip-hop numbers are down and damn for who no I'm talking about I know what you're talking about but damn for who tell me who it's down for because I'm still making the money I make yeah I do believe there's still a lot of artist that's making a shitload of money that they make I don't think it went down for them yeah you know what I mean but I understand what you're talking about they say the numbers and then rock and roll genre might be up like I don't really you heard like that's I'm into this business you heard and it's always up for us you heard cuz this is a business we make money out of nothing it's never a downside to this okay and and that's why I'm saying I think we're having two different conversations here cuz the conversation I'm having is I'm having I'm having right is that in as much as he's saying yeah the numbers are down because they orchestrated and whatever I get that right but also that's why I asked do you think Hip-hop has evolved cuz I grew up on hip-hop right and the same things um quote unquote you guys were rapping about in the '90s how can hipop how can hip hop evolved in the same thing that Africa been Africa been going on since the '90s aren't y going still going through the same thing we are huh we are so how could the music evolve when the music ref the time ah okay get you real stories what you want us to rap about [ __ ] that that we don't have ah we talk about [ __ ] we dream about all the time that's the good The Good Life the colorin the Ros we talk about but the truth is how the music going to change when our position hasn't changed when we still going through the same [ __ ] we've been going through okay and y'all being from Africa should know that more than we know that yeah that's facts that's fact go about that own Cod yeah yeah yeah yeah you know are bro that's a valid fact but how do you feel man like you've come from an era where you guys when what you you said in your raps I mean evolved as far as dition as far as what we rap about cuz we still stuck in the same place but as a business it has evolved to one of big time yeah yeah biggest big time money making machines you can attach yourself to this made some of the richest individuals whether you're the rapper the lawyer the executive like that's true you know what I mean the supply chain but then I think that's why you know when you get the likes of a wz coming out and Kendrick Lamar they stand out like a sore thumb because like they are rapping about but that's what music is about to stand out for those who that want to look like everybody they don't get nowhere why you think Dip set was so successful sucessful yeah because we stood out on purpose we don't want to look like or H or sound like no one else m we want yall to above all see us when we walk in the building and hear us when we get on that [ __ ] mic you heard why would you guys the diplomats I never like where did that come from the diplomats the name the diplomats yeah we diplomats oh ah okay that sounded cool no we diplomats we are Harlem diplomats and we take it as that you heard we go to the Embassy when we land in countries you heard all right okay okay okay I I sort of get that bro so in the business and how you still making money right now like from music just like how is it royalties damn you asking a lot of questions bro no I want to know bro I'm so I've got so many questions I want to ask you bro I'll tell you this music is supposed to be used so you can make as much ancillary dollars as you can because the music ain't promised everybody 15 minutes of fame ranges from a small 15 minutes of fame to a run like we having within that minute the 15 minutes the fame you better do a lot of other things to secure your bag because music is not going to be thing you be able to get paid off forever unless you're the DRS and the J that's not even 1% that's you know what I mean so you think about that so you better have some hustle you better learn how to you better have some business sense you better put your credit in order you better do a few things to secure you if you are artist [ __ ] leverage powerful penda yeah man how do you feel man when these kids these days wrap up about you know trying to act tough and rap about stuff they never done like you guys red about stuff you lived I mean I do believe a lot of these kids are going through a lot of [ __ ] that we went through and then a lot of the kids are talking about [ __ ] that they see but most of the kids are all growing up in the same community that all of that [ __ ] is going on so who tells them they don't have the right to talk about [ __ ] that they're not doing when that's still [ __ ] that they're seeing oh sure Ah that's powerful but the problem I have a problem when they rapping like they did it but they just R from somebody else's Vantage Point understand that but most of these artists that you've seen in the game some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I pretty firm in his in in his music that I'm a believer that he did some of that [ __ ] he can talk about just me I don't know you possibilities are possibilities but some things just seem correct you know mean I can't tell you for sure cuz it is music you know what I mean but some things seem correct [ __ ] man bro you got to come out to man you got to you know we haven't had a proper uh hip-hop concert in sa like since 50 N since you are come on back to the city does concerts man ah those are for old people empd the bigest artist in South Africa right now Hip-Hop Hip-Hop uh there's a guy called nastyc but nesty came here he doesn't know know you f poopa who's that nah F poopa Nigerian West African artist massive he used to pop not now for real still massive bigger than like ber boyo still it's different type of music oh stadiums is 50 60,000 people like what is this following this gu what's his name f poop F poop I don't know him bro he's from Nigeria yeah yeah yeah yeah Nigerian Prett pretty big yeah humongous bro how big was was 50 Cent bro like during his Reign man like how big was 50 Cent [ __ ] retardedly big it wasn't nothing bigger than him was Drake before Drake was dring he was oh [ __ ] he did it like it was like 50 was on a run that he never even touched the club bro like [ __ ] never seen him in the club he only did Arenas I never knew too many artist that just did that you dig like the [ __ ] was super massive every [ __ ] Rec he came out with was was going platinum and I'm just telling you the facts you heard and I always got to speak factual no matter how I feel about a person the [ __ ] was on top Super on top it was no way to knock him off his d i remember Jay-Z dropped the diss track on you did you guys resolve that beef I think you were not happy with him as the president of De jam oh man um we never really had a beef um we had some feuds back and forth through the situations that were going on over other people um and me being who I am I had to hold my ground um but to know that he actually talked about me in multiple of his records mean that I was pretty big in his eyes you dig true true cuz I didn't hear him talk about too many people in his career and if he did talk you talk about you on the record that meant something you know what I mean and I was then so for me that I I I took that like what it was like you dig like yeah J doesn't respond to take the time out to say my name you heard if I'm if I'm not that big of a deal to you you would never ever a am I am I right talk about a person you heard true it's it's a form of respect and ackowledge 100% am I right in saying a lot of [ __ ] are scared of Jay-Z bro cuz we interviewed Dam Ian I don't I don't know I'm not a lot of [ __ ] you heard I'm a man so I couldn't I I couldn't tell you that you heard I ain't scared to nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that that that dentist yeah the dentist got me there you heard you can walk in you could walk we about to fight right now you a dentist walk in you got it you got it like you got it bow down you got it I don't want no smoke let me get out of here M fact word Jimmy before you go man uh what beefs did you have so you had something beef with Jay-Z right no man I just told you we had some feuds stemming from that's beef bro stemming from other things that going on um my problem like it was all part of Us coming up in the game and things were happening we were signing a Rockefeller cam was sign a Rockefeller actually then we got opportunity to Diplomat records um the split between uh Jay and Dame came um artist took sides some took the J side some took the the Dame side which side were you on we was on the Dame side OB Dash yeah Dame Dash that's do you think Dame Dash is misunderstood bro huh you think Dame Dash is misunderstood um too smart for his own good I get that yeah if you had the opportunity again you sometimes being the smartest person in the room could be held against you especially when you want everybody to know that you're the smartest person in the room yeah yeah yeah and I get given a second chance would you still side with Dam never you wouldn't never whoa I never signed a d at all that was no no no like sided with him took his side oh give a second chance I wouldn't have sided with none of them I would we would haveed our [ __ ] business but you learned that with age yeah you heard we had no business butting into that because it wasn't a street beef and this wasn't some [ __ ] that had to do with us ultimately we were holding our [ __ ] down and [ __ ] like that but business-wise if we would if we knew what we knew now we would let them get into that they self y'all can handle that because we got records to put out and music to make and we got our own record label to run you dig and this my hinder what we got going on by us taking sides and that's why I tell people now even when people seeing all the Diplomat [ __ ] like y bro don't don't get in to taking sides with me and my bro because you never know how that might end up and if it end up to a point where we do figure out our situation then I'm looking at you funny now me and you got forever you heard you dig and there are plenty of people that did that and plenty people that didn't and plenty people that showed the same amount of love that he showed to me that it showed to cam when we were going through our imaginary situations and [ __ ] like that cuz it's all imaginary when you know you can figure figure it out now it's a saying that like don't just be in people's business when especially when they've beef and take sides cuz and I I had to learn that a lot I had took me a long time to learn that because of how we come up in the Cod that they supposedly treat us in teach us in the street and [ __ ] like that but sometimes that's not the smallest thing that we can do and then uh push a t did you ever beef with him nah that was some [ __ ] that we was on record um he did some [ __ ] I did some [ __ ] you dig that was it I never followed that I didn't even know did you know there's a pusher T me I ain't got no just know I don't know I know you're from I know you're from Africa and [ __ ] like that but people don't play with me yeah for real and I don't I don't play with people this ain't no playground you heard this is the street it's two ways don't get caught up in a yellow line it's going to be hard to cross bro yeah you heard no I don't trust me I'm from Africa but I saw what happened at the airport so that [ __ ] escalated yeah [ __ ] that was self-defense man God yo bro it looked like that guy was just messing with you bro I wish that could have never happened cuz I was trying to avoid that by all cause but [ __ ] happened sometime man you dig and definitely not not going to allow anybody do anything to me at all bro when I saw that video right like I don't know I just met you today right but I saw when you lifted that guy from the escalator threw him down he literally just went on survival mode bro like it's like there was a button that you switched on and you just like I don't [ __ ] care but yeah yeah no I mean no that's a button that I choose not to push you heard yeah exactly like you can go there quickly I choose to show restraint for a lot of reasons in my life and sometimes it's hard to you dig but where I'm at in life right now I choose positivity or all the other things that come out my way because I know how it is to be negative I was once that negative person that was very aggressive and ready to do something to to you over the minimal alistic of things and [ __ ] like that so I'm blessed to be here to try to be able to show restraint and so so the guy so the guy at the airport you guys on the same plane yeah we on the same plane so you don't have a private jet no I don't have a private jet I'm not a rich man come on Jimmy you made so much money over the years but anyway so you're in the plane what's he what's this guy saying to you like um I don't know man just [ __ ] happens I know just the started from the plane just know that what you see happen on so it starts on the plane you restrain yourself you're like all right cool my dog say whatever you want to say yeah when he gets to the airport I mean the escalator that's when I think he starts hitting you or something right yeah something like that he tried to do something like that and that's what we see man but like I said this is not something that I want to glorify it's not you think he knows who you are um if if he didn't he know now no I'm I'm sorry see sorry cuz some people just provoke I believe he was he was trolling a little bit and things like that which is cool you I mean I'm if if you in New York not time 10 you do know who I am so you know I believe it was a bit of that but God bless man hopefully that they all right hopefully the old man um cool you dig like are you spiritual cuz you mentioned God a lot man yeah I'm very spiritual very spiritual very spiritual I've been my whole family is spiritual and what does that mean in an American sense cuz um us as African for me it means a lot of different things um I was told what the church was as a young age as they drag you to church every Sunday your grandmother your moms and your family and things like that and you really don't understand what that is from that young but as you get older and you go through certain things and you make it through certain things you understand that there is a God and everybody has a relationship with their God different and sometimes going to church doesn't mean that you love your God any less or he loves you any less you dig and you say spiritual I'm very spiritual I say my prayers as much as I can sometime two three four times in a day you dig man doesn't take away from what I do and who I am because I'm still in the line for everything else everybody is in but I know every day that I'm able to wake up and every day I'm able to make a dollar and every day I'm able to keep living the life that I am I should be thankful you heard cuz that's not just me that's a higher vibration that's definitely a God you dig and I'm well aware that I've escaped many things in life that Lord knows I should not be here but then again I should be here cuz he put here for a reason he gives his toughest battles to his strongest people what the Bible say you heard and I've made it through some very tough battles which are minimal to some of the people that I had next to me in their battles you know what I mean so it's like we all got to figure it out Jim Jones thank you so much man and thanks to God for bringing you here man definitely I appreciate for making time for us bro thank you man we appreciate you tired when you got you I appreciate the fact that you could even make it man got any last question yeah man bro you said you've gone through some tough battles and you mentioned how you lost your dad at like 26 but also that you you pretty much raised yourself from the age of 15 you know from that relationship or lack of it like has it affected how you father your children 100% this made me the best father I could be but me my relationship with my father was always a great one even though he wasn't there because every day he wasn't I love them even more I wasn't one of them kids that was bitter you dig I understand that everybody went through something and at that age what he was going through there was a lot of drug addiction and I knew that from a very young age I understood what drugs was and how they were tearing up my family I never held that against my father and I was just blessed able to get back with him before he passed away so he could see that his son was making something out of himself at that time I was already signed to her uh we think we just got the Rockefeller deal so it was a very big deal for me to be able to get back with my father to show him that me somebody that you should be proud of and I know him looking down right now got be like damn I did that so you know and that's how I feel but then in turn TR here my son I don't you know I mean like I just you know mean I pride myself on making sure that I I turned my son into somebody that was way better than I could ever be you oh man yeah that's my guy shout out to you man is your son still wearing Crocs to you br he's a Croc guy you heard yeah Crocs for Life bro Crocs for Life jumping out the beam with a fresh paer Crocs on I don't want to stand him Jimmy before you go your top five rappers all time my top five rappers of all you got to give us your top five bro yeah Tupac definitely Jay-Z Drake um Drake he not like us by default of course um rock cam no Eminem No No whoa not even big you from NY and not to take nothing away from him he's extremely nice it's retardedly nice when it comes to rap but I listen to artists that kind of you know I mean do something for the life that I live and kind of what I've been through and most of these artist or artist that I'm talking about people that you know what I mean like [ __ ] better stop hating on my boy Drake all of a sudden all this Drake land I get it I get it you ain't like us let's not do that let's not forget the 15 years he been spanking [ __ ] around this [ __ ] all all all over this [ __ ] all the alley he been giving most of these artists that are now seeming to be turning on them let's you know let's not some of them gave him their best hits let's not forget the big picture here and [ __ ] like but what the hip-hop culture and this game is built on competition so I yeah but what is he with it you heard you better put your best foot forward but what has Drake given back to the culture oh that you so love here we go um what is he giving back to the culture I seen him take a lot of people on tour and turn them even richer than they already was I I seen him give a lot of people hits that they would have never had if he wouldn't have got on a record things for the culture that wouldn't have happened in turn records that we would have never knew about him to record that the culture love and things like that I mean he's not from here Canada from the hood I don't believe he owes America too much but the monster that give back to where he's from maybe we should ask about what has he done in Canada giving back to his community as opposed to what he giving back to the culture of the United States when this is not where he's from and I think that's the Divide right there now if we talk about what he's done in Canada and if it's not up to par then maybe we can talk about oh you dig but that's I think that's for the people of Canada you dig like yeah cuz but it's the people of America in the hood who made him of course you heard about but that he didn't grw up in America he didn't grew up here you heard so if you was an artist from Africa yeah like boy yeah do you think bnab boy has responsibility what do Niger of United stes n I'm taking it back home bro super duper big yes but that's what people then will call a culture vulture cuz you come into a space you know do what the people of that space do benefit from them is is is you understand what we doing like it's bro it's not because he's not take so he's not taking benab boy is Nigerian it's a Nigerian culture that is now popular in America so Drake took an American culture and enriched himself but what he's saying is that he doesn't owe anything to America cuz he's not from yet right okay right yeah I mean [ __ ] he's got no obligation Fair argument he got no obligation Fair argument yeah like he lived if he lived like I don't I don't that's how I see it you heard like that's how I see it you dig but all these [ __ ] we talking about are filthy filthy filthy rich off the opinions of men you heard what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never but what I'm just trying to tell you is how this game is played yeah you heard yeah geez man the more we talk the more they get paid the loser still gets paid too if there is a loser I don't think there's a loser when they all getting Millions off of this [ __ ] I don't think I mean like and I understand end all be all in the whole circle of it but I'm I've been in this [ __ ] for so long I'm miss you can see the politics of really get you to understand of what's really going on and [ __ ] like that this [ __ ] don't pay me a dollar to talk about it yeah hey man how tight you with Joe Bon he calls us those African guys with numbers oh yeah yeah yeah Jo this my guy buts what's up man he cool yeah he's an instigator definely know how to get under people's skin yeah I've known Joan for so long [ __ ] like that um I'm proud of him put himself in his position a whole new Lane to make a shitload of money um where it stem from the culture this what I'm talking about all the ancillary things that you need to get going on if are a artist of some type of success you got to use that to get where you want look at Joe used his startom and rap no matter what it was to able to finesse a whole new Lane of podcasting that true he's pretty big in damn near one of the forefathers of it from our culture right y'all started before him or after him we started after him but now we have more numbers than him hey doesn't matter no numbers do matter I mean no J and get num I'm cool with that but you won't be never be the considered the forefather of this whole no no no no no no no you dig 100% yeah it's Jo Joan numbers is cool I'm cool with that you get paid and I know what's a race you might be number one you heard yeah yeah but you still never be the forefather always going to have that under him like I've created this Lane for your how I feel about Ling hip hop yeah of course I got that under my belt that's mine y can never say that was yours at all yeah okay how much money you made off of it and [ __ ] like that at the end of the day you it's mine you heard Still My still mine so we always ask anybody any guest that we get on the show in closing what do you want to be remembered as man when it's all said and done I want I want to be remembered I want I want them to know that I gave more than I took because I was able to take a lot in my time amen just like that sh hey man I wish you put me on love and& hip-hop bro they got the African love of Hip Hop they got Jamaican love of Hip Hop they got they got any type of Love of Hip Hop we need the South African love of Hip Hop thanks Jim man shout out thank you bro I appreciate you man thank you we appreciate podcast and chill we out of here man boom peace welcome to Black excellenc do not fear for if you do just sip on some Grand and if you still do ask ourselves what would M [Music] do when they ask you do not fear for if you do just say an TV this is the the medicine of censorship this is the pill which one is that one podcast and chill	the conversation at home with your parents like your mom your dad and just the domestic you know Dynamics I a't grow my parents I was a grown man since I was like 15 I made my own money since I was like 16 my grandmother left me in high school man I was raising my Sisters by myself in the projects I hustle every I ever got in my life that's why music saved my life I was so grateful to be able to be next to cam and him getting a deal at such a very young age to be able to still be making money off that [ __ ] right now you were U anr for Warner uh music group yeah I was the director of anr for Warner Music Group um years ago uh shouts to Kevin L shouts to Leo Cohen for giving me the opportunity um great opportunity uh I excelled at it extremely very young with a lot of power but didn't understand what I had at hand um didn't have too many people in my corner that were telling me the things that I should have been doing with that type of position as opposed to some type of weird way be hating you know I mean so that's what happened but as you get older you learn you learn and you move on who did you discover while you were in that position uh I would tell you a story	7	5	8	the conversation at home with your parents like your mom your dad and just the domestic you know Dynamics I a't grow my parents I was a grown man since I was like 15 I made my own money since I was like 16 my grandmother left me in high school man I was raising my Sisters by myself in the projects I hustle every I ever got in my life that's why music saved my life I was so grateful to be able to be next to cam and him getting a deal at such a very young age to be able to still be making money off that right now	who did you discover while you were in that position	8,6,5	0,2,3	8	6	5	0	2	3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr730VmL-lk	4,054	rr730VmL-lk	2024-06-27 00:00:00	like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano no well Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he showed me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah just understand everybody going there my guy I understand the hate exactly what you're saying yeah bro what's his name I don't it's fine you remember those some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I ain't scared of nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that the dentist yeah dentist got me there what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never [Music] [Music] yo Jimmy you do not look like you want to be here bro like someone forced you to be it's like you have to do that par they're the biggest podcast in Africa you have to be there I never look like I want to be nowhere man you got to part of me but congratulations to yall having the biggest podcast in Africa that that that's very big Africa being one of the biggest continents in the world a lot of people over there shut up man why you so tired bro crazy weekend I've been working all weekend shows different states traveling Planes Trains automobiles you know how I be a little bit too much partying yeah road kill it's tough but what's up how y'all feeling I'm good bro I literally saw um I saw your video uh yesterday for your new single the one you shot in Miami two turn temp yeah yeah how you feel about it bro that [ __ ] is lit man looks like our Vibe bro cuz we've been to Miami myself and and my partner but we never like experienced the Miami night life we were playing in Florida yeah we're DJing in Florida but two South Africans like the diaspora then West Palm Beach as well yeah DJ also yeah like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano what it's a genre it's called a piano no no cuz I'm a piano even you heard like you saw he did the whole Keys thing it has nothing to do with the piano that's where it started but has nothing to do with it these days when when I met charlot man he said the exact same thing he's like oh so you're a podcaster I'm like yeah and then you DJs I'm like no I play I'm a Pian like you're a Pianist man you one talented [ __ ] n it's a genre of music man what kind of genre is that like it's like slowed down house music with a lot of s that African influence that's the only way I can describe it so it's a it's a mix of a marriage house yeah a marriage of house music which originated here at Chicago and stuff and then we slowed it down created a sub genre called guo where guys were sort of rapping but very minimalist raps called guo then the kids were born like in the 2000s late '90s then created a whole meshup of those two genres and it's called Piano cuz a a lot of Americans think it's um afro beats it's not afro beats yeah a lot of the hence I avoided saying afro beats cuz AFR beats is from Nigeria and amap piano is far from afro beat afro beat borrows from am piano now where is amap piano originated from South Africa from the hoods from the Cassis yeah but when I when I was looking at your video bro uh the only thing in my mind was like bro what's a night like out with Jim Jones CU that [ __ ] look lit there [ __ ] everywhere bro um please please describe a night out in Miami with Jim so let's say we going to Miami right now I mean some nice are better than others but been doing it so long it's kind of like the the bare minimum for us to do in Miami just having fun but it still work at the same time like every every I'm I'm not just going out partying for no reason ni like that was we knew what we was kind of getting into we wanted to film a video so we knew we was going to ramp it up a bit take it to the to the highest form going crazy as we could but that actually happened to fall on a big weekend um and one of my dudes was celebrating so everything kind of happened for a reason but yeah Miami could take you for take you for a few a few trips man like okay so so so me and you we get in the car right I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm in Miami I hate you cuz you got a house there you stay there right yeah I got I got I got cribs there so I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm by the strip you know that Miami strip right yeah yeah yeah I mean see that's the thing about Miami when you come to visit Miami that's where people are know at like the strip and things like that I guess stand by Collins and ocean driveing all that people that live there don't really do the strip like that like you just you dig people congregate usually at night time and all the spots that usually go on down there um okay so we got security obviously you got to roll around with security right um yeah I mean that' be the safest thing for me to do so we get out the cut with security when you get to the bouncers are they letting us in cuz it's Jim Jones or are they checking our IDs cuz they've been checking our IDs just to buy beer here bro Che ID everywhere yeah everywhere yeah no I I don't think I produced my ID in since I was a teenager at clubs but yeah you won't need your ID when you with me so we walking in right yeah we going to get in oh do we have a section do we they going to give us a section VIP yeah they going to give us a section we going to get some bottles and let the night ensue got this thing called Power Hour you go to the club maybe like 2:45 to 3:45 in and out no sweat so what's the what's the purpose of that exercise the Power Hour yeah like why would you be in the cloud for an hour why would I be in a club for 4 hours it's Fu I mean I've been part I've been partying since I've been 14 I've been making money to party since I've been 18 I'm kind of burnt out so at this point I try to wait till the club is at the most popping or lest moment which is usually that hour right there and I get to enjoy everything that happened tonight and leave out of there and not be all burnt out what what does your wife say bro cuz you're married man you're surrounded by all these girls like you know I mean I'm going to worry about the women yeah is minimal to the money worry about the money more than anything so so a woman doesn't like give you grief when you come home I yeah you get you get grief all the time if you in a relationship no matter what you do if you had a job on Wall Street you get home you're going to get grief no around it you heard yeah there's women everywhere unless you work in the LGBT Club then you know I mean even there you still going to go home and get like it's no way around it you're going to get you know I mean like yeah so you've never had like been home and you had to explain like yo no man I was just doing music video it's just work like I don't know that good you going to explain yourself in every relationship and things like that I got a good woman at home who understands a job I have and things like that so for the most part but for the most part I'm a very responsible respectable person when when I'm in the streets and when I do have to interact with females and things like that yeah anyway H ladies and gentlemen welcome to another special edition of podcasting chill so CU yeah I am here we're chilling with the [ __ ] Legend Kings of Harlem please make some noise for Jim Jones Jim I gotta say bro I gotta say bro I'm going to be honest with you when I find that your name was GMO geloo gelo I'm like I'm like Jim Jones losing some G points here man what the [ __ ] is that I'm Puerto Rican and a rubian my pops is Puerto Rican the word gelo means William in English is a Spanish Spanish name cuz you know what I was thinking I was thinking that guy who does the show late night you know the short guy who does like the interviews with um this late night comedian man what are the late night shows oh man not uh bad with these oh gosh the late night guy bro uhri or something not Corin O'Brien no not Trevor Noah the other American guy man like uh old new no he's like jimm Kimel Jimmy Kimel jimy he's got that he's got that short guy his name is julo oh I don't I don't I don't got got me messed up I don't even really watch TV like that bro okay I'll be out chasing the money I ain't even got time to do that and if and if I do got some time I'm trying to get a little bit of rest or I'm thinking about money [ __ ] is crucial out here right now you better get to your dollar a lot of [ __ ] about to happen and if you ain't got no coins boy you going to be [ __ ] up you ever been to uh Puerto Rico yeah I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times yeah but business not for the Heritage part of it so like you don't know where like your your your parents were at Familiar of the place where my father's from but I never really got to do the whole go to give with my family understand the roots understand you know I mean like I didn't get to get to that part of it but I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times you find like that's important like to know you it's definitely important I had this um I did an interview not too long ago about um how important the roots are and get to know where my family from know I mean so we'll start to do that pretty soon so so so your dad you know you know your dad right yeah he's passed away oh okay God bless rest in peace what happened to him he passed away yeah like was it um medical thing or yeah natural causes oh damn like when you young or um maybe when I was uh 23 24 oh damn bro SED to hear that man maybe 26 right before my son passed right before my God bless right before my son Bor bro but you like 47 right now I look good for 47y old man no homo you know what I mean thank you very much like what was what's keeping you looking so good is it the yoga yeah a lot of yoga a lot of Pilates I stay in shape um I'm very uh very big on Fitness um work out like five six times a week um it's one of the best ways to stay young and have better chances of living a long life is that why you do it or maybe there's other purpose like you know a lot of people are in gym for their mental health I mean it's very it's very it's very therapeutic I will say that but my main goal is to look good of course but to give me better chances of living forever bro so how you got into rap um I don't know correct me if I'm wrong right but you used to skip church and go to the train station to to rap like no I never skipped Church to go on the train station and rap I skipped Church to go to the train station and go play video games and run the streets and do everything a bad little kid did from the streets of hollow when we was like S8 and n and things like that I don't know if you know about anything about the subway system in New York but that's the pathway system that get you to all five burrows and we definitely was on the subway which maybe we shouldn't have been but we was a little uh loose um for me rapping actually rapping didn't start later on in life to actually uh C and um they I got a deal and things like that and that was the first time me myself really thought about actually raing cuz I'll be honest with you like um dipet I don't really know much about dipet however I know about you guys individually like Cameron old boy like one of my favorite songs uh jul sna had hear that that was Cameron and Jules and jwes he both was on he both old boy and heon yeah why don't you jump on those tracks man those tracks are massive they was already done I was there for the making of both of them incredible tracks yeah and then how did dipit start start like how did you guys start the whole movement um organically kiss him Harem gr up together um talented kids Cam and Mason BL sh was they already was doing music um Everybody gradu graduated high school I didn't get to go to college they went to college they got kicked out they got kicked out they come moved in with me from that that was a uh foundation for them to D into the music you've been in the game for like 20 30 odd years right been in the game for since 1997 how would you describe the different eras of like um hip-hop right especially now cuz um obviously we all know about the Kendrick Lamar song they're not like us but I didn't know how big it was until I landed in in in America and it's like it's like a movement the video yeah it's like huge it's massive bro yeah it's a big record Kendrick did that shout out to Kendrick shout out to my boy Drake but what do you think about like the evolution of hip-hop in all the different areas you've been a part of what do you mean what do I think about it it's a great thing to be a part of something that um you could only dream of everybody doesn't get a chance to be in this game um I've been fortunate enough to be here for so many genres and errors and seen so many people come and go I've watched the smallest artist to the biggest artist who you thow will be here forever and going um I got stories for days I can tell you about um how I feel about it I feel great I feel blessed you know what I mean I feel lucky this [ __ ] don't it's not promised and for me to still be here is definitely a blessing so in the 90s what was the vibe like man like like what in the 90s as far as what in hip-hop yeah it was it was different um 90s was a great era um one of my favorite errors um that was the era we first first came outside um started to get out deal uh very aggressive era uh no social media um cell phones were just being born um everything that you seen you was something that you could grab on to um artists had to go to the towns we couldn't just get on your phone and music you had to go get you couldn't just have access to it so it was a it was it it was a hunt um you had to touch the Tails kiss babies do radio everything like it was just a different ER but who was around like during that time when you who was around like Tupac was did you like meet Tupac Tupac I didn't get to meet Tupac um Tupac passed away what 95 was that yeah right in big in '97 um no I got to see Tupac do a few times in Harlem um that was dope but um not Tupac passed away before we got to get in the record game but I've seen a lot of a lot of artists in my time from a young age to old age we were partying in clubs as teenagers before we even got a record deal and things like that like we were in clubs since high school and [ __ ] like that so any interactions with Big L he was from Harlem right yeah shouts to Big Al Big Al was definitely from Harlem um 139th NFL Big L um I was one of the Cam's uh close friends um actually put cam on a dope record that started to give uh Cam and bloodshed and and her mcgree her was already popping too but guy gave them some notice when it came to R so when you come out like who's who's popping at that time is it git is it mop D it's way before G when we came out I was like Eminem just dropped oh [ __ ] this is Slim Shady not M like Slim Shady I I remember that that was like cam had dropped and Eminem had dropped DMX had dropped Nori had dropped um Big Pun had dropped lud Chris Luda had just started coming out um Nelly Nelly down down baby yeah shouts to coola love um yeah that type of error shouts to shouts to Fat Joe shouts to Buster they was already in it uh Nas was already in it Jay start going crazy that's when he just started taking over with the 1 million 2 million 3 million 4 um yeah very competitive very edgy um lot of the big dogs um had real roots in the streets um especially in the streets of New York so that put that put a real Mystique on everything when it came to the music um all the events with topnotch um it just was a different feel man it was a heavy heavy dope boy era um this was before the drug dealers wanted to be Rappers that's when the rappers wanted to be drug dealers you know what I mean and and that Arrow was was a very dope high impact trenel and Russian it was a was a great error bro I saw an interview you did correct me if I'm wrong I might be paraphrasing but you mentioned a place called the tunnel or something where everybody would be and you guys were [ __ ] [ __ ] in the bathrooms please please describe that manest cuz a place like that couldn't exist right now bro with all this woke [ __ ] I mean yeah and the cancel cult I would say it was probably the greatest Club The Hip hopers have seen and it was during the 90s era it was the Golden Era um in New York they got you had stories about like Studio 54 in that era when everybody used all the biggest of big used to go to Studio 54 well the tunnel was what Studio 54 was to that era to our era and it didn't make so many people and nationalities and genres and just everybody was like a big pumbo all for the sake of the culture you had some of the flyest models to some of the biggest drug dealers biggest gang bangers I mean every former elicit street life you could think of was in the spot along with the biggest artists and rappers and actors and models that you could find into all athletes um it would definitely like that um and was this like per invite or just like anybody could Rock up there nah you couldn't just rock up there for this is '90s entry was like $100 first of all $100 for a club that was the first time we ever heard of it and that was a lot of money back then especially we probably started in '94 going there teenager so $100 was sto a lot of money in New York at the time sneakers wasn't even costing $100 um to get in the club you definitely had to be connected to know somebody or you had to wait on a long line that usually was a block long um they had like an Express line you could pay $100 to get on Express line that'll get you to the door quicker and then you pay your entry fee um streets was blocked off you was a big dog you was able to bring your cars down there I was able to bring like four five of them if I wanted to um yeah the club was just it was different man pull up to the door security they taking people's shoes off they searching your jacket twisting people inside out like they about to go on the Rikers Island I got to I gave security High files I never took my shoes off and not since high school I when we used go in high school we used to get our shoes taken off and things like that make you feel like you going to the cental bookings and [ __ ] like that so what gave you that clout that allowed you to bring four cars in when nobody or you had to be a big dog to bring four cars in when you could just give them a high five instead of removing your shoes and you're young by then like what gives you that CL I was a big dog since a small pup bro J yeah man what gave you those you know credentials at such a young age to suppos all these people cuz Dr Tre was there yeah you putting in four cars not removing shoes I was a good Lord Biden citizen everybody love Jim Jones even even the girls like would you just rock up they say let's go to the bathroom that's it yeah now that well yeah there was a lot of that going on they had a uh the layout was different first of all the club was a block long a whole city block um wow there was like three other four other clubs within the club or spots that look like clubs um the main floor was humongously big the DJ was like a a lifeguard Tower in the middle of the club um you go upstairs they had a VR big V PE upstairs and then go through a door it open up to the bathroom the bathroom was like a unisex Club [ __ ] had a big ass bar in the middle of the bathroom uh bunch of stalls lined up um that [ __ ] was like a hotel inside Lions cocaine everything yeah they was going down a lot of sex was going down there a lot of a lot of drugs was going down in there um yeah the tunnel was definitely uh a landmark to New York City when it comes to the clubs I I definitely um I always think about that club um it did a lot for me in my life um it gave me a lot of imagination when it came to to the culture and the things I was seeing from a young age as to where I want to be and the direction I want to go in yeah we was going there since high school so when you seeing people like Mike Tyson and all these people coming in big cheer on and just having their way as a kid go out got to go to school the next morning you you in school thinking about that [ __ ] like w man this school [ __ ] [ __ ] this school [ __ ] I need some money and I need to go to the tunnel that's all I want to [ __ ] do that's wild man now can you imagine because we in sa right we're looking at all the videos that you guys are pulling out there like we're looking at this lifestyle and then you F Track to 2024 right M and the P didy thing breaks out right I mean i' rather not even to get into that yeah just don't I rather the do I don't you know I mean like it's not it's not my business oh I mean like this you heard God bless it's too much n yeah and it's not me to have an opinion on certain things cuz I ain't perfect I've been through my own [ __ ] in life and I see a lot of people that have even this doing too much just know that I ain't perfect so I choose not to talk on certain [ __ ] that you know what I mean a lot of other people people been talking about I let them keep doing the talk and I got other [ __ ] to work on I'm trying to work on me being a better person yeah I respect I respect that man but were ever part of any gang or like you sounding like the F never hey we don't the F in South Africa man only PS I'm just playing with you yeah I've been affiliated with the bloods in New York City um ENT Tre um yeah so crazy have you ever been to sa like have you ever been to Africa or um I've been to Africa where did you go uh gaban gille damn G to perform there um I went to perform there but uh got some great friends there they actually had ran the country at the time this is before the big yeah yeah overtaking and stuff like that but I had a ball out there I got to go to an island called Pony um that was a dope experience as they took me to the jungles I got to see some of the indigenous people um it was like a a real um life Awakening like and I got to see how also the rich people live out there also like I got to see both sides like that you know what I mean it was it was a great experience I out there for like a week um I haven't been back since but yeah it was dope you never been to South Africa never been to South Africa bro so the reason why I asked that is because like yo bro like American culture has infiltrated South Africa like you can't believe like you know we got people worshiping you guys you know Jim Jones rappers and everything you so we've got rappers who rap just like you and youd say they're like Bloods and Crips but they've never they've never left sa you know cuz that's how influential uh the culture is right but from you when you see or hear that like what do you guys think like do you think is like some [ __ ] like or like leave don't don't follow the gang life you know what I mean oh as far as that is concerned um there's two sides to that this what you do as a gang member that turns it into something that becomes a crime or whatever that end but the Brotherhood part of it is what the most of us joined up for when we coming up in the hood and need that Brotherhood lean on somebody is that type of camaraderie that pretty much stood for and there's a lot of other great attributes that comes with affiliation or you becoming a part of a gang um it gets twisted up because we all come up in these urban communities and our back is against the wall we don't have no opportunities um it's very dormant uh we on top of each other so naturally testosterone testosterone wins in a lot of these situations where these kids find s in bad situations and for that I would tell people to kind of stay away from this type of life um I don't want to oppose my will we all going to experience what we going to experience but I can't tell you the consequences to this type of Lifestyle could be very dear you heard ethal a lot of people don't get to make it where I made it and Escape that lifestyle that could have put me away or could have put me in the dirt I mean so here as a Living testament to tell you that these consequences are terrible the odds on you making it out of that life in a positive manner are very slim I mean but if you are in that life and you taking it as a Brotherhood and try to uplift your brothers I know there's a lot of people around you that are doing a lot of [ __ ] that that that that that's very crazy you know what I mean if you're a part of that and you got the positive minder then you try to uplift your brother and instill some positivity within them because it's very cold out here so I've always been curious bro like so when that when you you you start getting immersed you know or Affiliated in the gang life how does that affect the conversation at home with your parents like your mom your dad and just the domestic you know Dynamics I a't grow my parents I was a grown man since I was like 15 I made my own money since I was like 16 my grandmother left me in high school man I was raising my Sisters by myself in the projects I hustle every I ever got in my life that's why music saved my life I was so grateful to be able to be next to cam and him getting a deal at such a very young age to be able to still be making money off that [ __ ] right now you were U anr for Warner uh music group yeah I was the director of anr for Warner Music Group um years ago uh shouts to Kevin L shouts to Leo Cohen for giving me the opportunity um great opportunity uh I excelled at it extremely very young with a lot of power but didn't understand what I had at hand um didn't have too many people in my corner that were telling me the things that I should have been doing with that type of position as opposed to some type of weird way be hating you know I mean so that's what happened but as you get older you learn you learn and you move on who did you discover while you were in that position uh I would tell you a story I I know I've helped try s uh they come to tra songs that you know today he's always in he's always in we know why no n but he was a young kid at the time and uh they were actually going to cut him from the label we had a big uh um it's like uh one of them uh some events they be doing not the talent shows the uh well was something like that all the artists had to come perform and then they pretty much didn't know that they was on a Cho and block at the time when I was an executive and and he was one of the artists that they were going to cut and I remember Kevin L specifically ask me yo what we should do with him I'm about to cut him I don't know what to do with him and when I heard him uh singing and I saw him perform I was like this is this is one artist you should keep and did that and now we all tra songs on so many dope ass records is it true you could have signed Drake yeah I had a chance to sign uh I had a chance to do business with Drake um through Allan grum blat um when I was doing business at cotch um it was a different era I didn't understand what Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he show me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah understand everybody going at my guy I understand the hate man the hate is so phenomenal it's just how this game go man this game is so tricky man these [ __ ] just like females in this game we ain't going to get into that man there's a lot of uh but wait wait wait so so with Drake like are you are you seeing him perform like try songs or like you just heard of the guy just a conversation Allan called me about signing a kid let me hear some of his music um and I was like the kid know how to rap but I don't know what to do with him his image is crazy and him couple years later heard him on a Wheezy mixtape going crazy I was like wow this kid is about to go wham inside of this business and he sure did and you're know trying to call Weezy like yo man I gotta get that kid or something n he was already signed a young money and jcole did you miss on jcole as well I could have signed J Cole bro jcole was in the studio with me every day and at that point jcole I he's he remind me of a knockoff Drake and not to say it like that but that's who he sounded like he came to my studio every day rapping to these Drake beats rapping like Drake Cadence like Drake he could rap his ass off yeah you heard yeah but it was already a drake out there he had the Caesar it was different like two lightskinn [ __ ] might not K when raing the same but you never know what you got in front of you man you dig and those are lessons I I've took with me to moving forward when I see artists and and I hate artists I always give them more than just hearing just just I got to I got to I gotta try to capture the whole picture I make sure I just don't you mean so I don't miss nothing else because I've missed a few people and I've helped a few people um gain a lot of success in in my time in this industry whether it been by me having a meeting with them or me having influence on them or you know I mean so you know and there's never like any animosity like Jake Cole or Drake never came up to be like yo you could have signed me look at me now bro I mean me and Drake is cool as [ __ ] um I see J Cole I don't think he I mean I don't think that's no he some [ __ ] he might want to keep to himself not to be like that sh the co he not that type of artist he's not a you I mean yeah you did I look I look at as we can see I want to mention an artist who like I'm really fond of like I think this guy's [ __ ] amazing musically talented everything that he touched like turned to Gold who's that uh kid k bro K Cy yeah yeah did you help him with his career yeah I birth K Cy wow J me how so bro bir them nobody would have know who K Cy was at all if I a jump on this remix record but it wasn't even remix he wasn't even a nobody like I tell a story all the time I had a inter used to work for me said he got some dudes that do videos they would like to do a video for me told them come let me see they work they show me their videos the first video they showed me was of the kid Cy record he's on the top of a roof some simple video the record sound more wavy than the opportunity for them to do a video I'm like well if you'll get me the beat to this record I Remix this record and then y'all can shoot the video to that record wow and that's what they did and then um the radio station ripped the record off of YouTube and start playing it at Hot 97 and K Cy was born bro why do you think especially about kid Cy cuz from him when I listen to music right it wasn't really no no other kid Cy record besides the one that I was on yeah man he's not in they don't play his records where I be at at all not to be funny wow bro and we listen to him like all that day and night you know remember only record I know yeah it's the only record I know unless it's like a pop record that everybody know and I and I'm even not paying attention to it but he don't his records don't get played nowhere that i' be at not like that unless I go into a different farm and that's the type of music they playing in one of these funny clubs that play fist pump music and pop music he's not into like you dig like they don't play his music in the clubs I'll be at maybe in Vegas and [ __ ] like that but that's not like they not pumping this [ __ ] in live they not pumping this [ __ ] in Atlanta they not pumping this [ __ ] down the Stafford room or you know what I mean like they I'm not saying nothing like that but I don't hear it in the strip clubs I don't hear like you know what I mean so but he's a very successful person with some of the greats like Kanye to put him in a position to win and [ __ ] like that and I think he's way more better as an actor than he is a musician and that's just my POS that's just my opinion he did I seen him in the movie uh about the race car [ __ ] where he was F the playe like he got a lot of Charisma and [ __ ] like that on on camera for what I could see and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean bro I mean for you as Jim Jones to to see these kids you're introduced to them by an intern and then to hop onto that song it's something selfless you know to just give these unknown kids an opportunity of sharing a song with you where do you think that selflessness comes from how was that unknown kid I'm still an unknown kid anytime I get an opportunity that's an opportunity I should be able to give to somebody else bro the fact that you could even come to our podcast shout out man yeah man you don't even know us exactly what you're saying yeah know us what's his name I don't it's fine you know remember those kids who who did the video for him anyway you know remember I remember like that kids that got the biggest African podcast I'm definitely going to know like them is my guys right family right there appreciate I really mean that that sincerely and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean I I bump in too many people in my life and been across too many people in my journey to actually remember everybody's name but the face and the cause and I mean BR I want to understand right the first time you came up with the concept For Love and Hip Hop where were you what was happening that um that was something like uh me and Christy she had opportunity to do uh her own reality show um and actually fell through and that kind of she was kind of she wanted to do that I can see she was eager about doing that when it fell through kind you know I mean [ __ ] with her mood and [ __ ] like that so so so so so the initial concept what was it was just Chrissy just showing like what's life the initial concept was about she had her own thing going on about a group of women that was supposed to do a reality show had nothing to do with me yeah that [ __ ] fell through she lost that opportunity to end up not going people have been begging me to do reality TV for past couple years at the time and I and you reality TV gold man I refused to do it yeah and then when that happened I was like all right I got I'll do this for you and we'll make it about you and females that have to that are involved with artist such as myself and show what the relationship side is when you're dealing with a high-profile artist and you know what I mean how so that's how that started bro and that thing became a monster super super monster like it's still big till this day bro 100% so do you have like uh ownership in that we we were link a all that you know at that time when maybe the second season we just in a position where we refuse to compromise our dignity for anyone or any dollar and sometimes it be like that you know what I mean um but ain't no stress off my back T my hat to him you no but but but we got to talk about that because you see like this podcast um it's blackowned right it's just me and a couple of other people that are involved in the podcast right and we're always striving for ownership so a lot of um Brands and investors have come to try to buy the podcast and we say know cuz like we believe in ownership and telling the story the way we want to tell it right so what went wrong in that because as a hustler I believe like that's your also end goal MH um it wasn't something that I was just a lot of different layers and [ __ ] like that and I was too worried about doing other things and we had the opportunity to gain all ownership 50% of the whole TV show and all that but it still wasn't worth GE bro that's insane you just let go like that yeah bro it's your brain child bro there is no Love and& Hip Hop without you bro I still got a brain you heard yeah those are for people that don't have a brain that lack creativity people that steal things from you lack what you don't have remember that yeah whether it's money whether it's creativity whatever it is they lack what you don't have ultimately they steal from you you heard I mean we didn't even know C beef if it wasn't for Love and& Hip Hop right yeah yeah yeah definitely yeah bro you gave birth to so many many people man like VI their careers that's the god in me that's why I'm always going to be good yeah she man so any other shows that you're working on like in the pipeline that you want to do I was telling you I working on um a late night show a late night um a late night variety show live in studio audience hopefully we'll be filming in about 40 to 60 days um beautiful concept I do I do believe people going enjoy the show um like I was saying I can't do um a podcast is too personal for me and [ __ ] like that and me watching these podcasts um dealing with these artists me myself don't have the temperament for it you know what I mean um I [ __ ] I T my hat to y'all to have to deal with artists such as myself cuz you never know what type of mood they going to come in you know what I me some of these artists have a air to them where they feel like they better than most and they would never sit and have tea with the with the maintenance guy you heard me myself me going to maintenance guy going to smoke blunts before I get on stage [Music] I live my life and and and currently uh before we let you go man what do you think about the state of hip-hop cuz like statistically numbers wise it's not looking good man e beats has played all over New York now there's now the pianos this is this is what they want you to do this is how to get us to go against each other it's all under the same culture umbrella it's afro music ref I'm a piano I'm a piano explain that what do you mean by that bro yeah R&B what do you mean by that ultimately it's all from under the same origin and creativity of the same person from the same colors is all our thing n but let's be honest Jimmy hip-hop hasn't involved bro when I was listening to Eminem what do you want mean what do you mean hip-hop hasn't evolved you guys are still rapping about the same stuff it don't you you missing the point of what hip-hop is yeah hip-hop has evolved to a point that you can be the music genres that you're told them about can be noticed you think that if there was a hip hop that I'm a piano would be noticed or afro Beach would be noticed think about that and not to take nothing away from y because you always have culture and yes that music might be big within the continent of Africa yeah right but to cross over to American Fame and commercialism you don't think that the hip-hop culture played a big part in that that's that that's a different argument now you want to have a different argument I'm telling you the semantics of where we going with this you dig like you talking about uh the the hip hop music is damn percentage that's how they want us to think when it's really not cuz we all uplifting each other you heard you think that the country music that's going on in the black people winning is not because of the hip-hop culture no no no I think no one is disputing that however so then when you say hip-hop numbers are down and damn for who no I'm talking about I know what you're talking about but damn for who tell me who it's down for because I'm still making the money I make yeah I do believe there's still a lot of artist that's making a shitload of money that they make I don't think it went down for them yeah you know what I mean but I understand what you're talking about they say the numbers and then rock and roll genre might be up like I don't really you heard like that's I'm into this business you heard and it's always up for us you heard cuz this is a business we make money out of nothing it's never a downside to this okay and and that's why I'm saying I think we're having two different conversations here cuz the conversation I'm having is I'm having I'm having right is that in as much as he's saying yeah the numbers are down because they orchestrated and whatever I get that right but also that's why I asked do you think Hip-hop has evolved cuz I grew up on hip-hop right and the same things um quote unquote you guys were rapping about in the '90s how can hipop how can hip hop evolved in the same thing that Africa been Africa been going on since the '90s aren't y going still going through the same thing we are huh we are so how could the music evolve when the music ref the time ah okay get you real stories what you want us to rap about [ __ ] that that we don't have ah we talk about [ __ ] we dream about all the time that's the good The Good Life the colorin the Ros we talk about but the truth is how the music going to change when our position hasn't changed when we still going through the same [ __ ] we've been going through okay and y'all being from Africa should know that more than we know that yeah that's facts that's fact go about that own Cod yeah yeah yeah yeah you know are bro that's a valid fact but how do you feel man like you've come from an era where you guys when what you you said in your raps I mean evolved as far as dition as far as what we rap about cuz we still stuck in the same place but as a business it has evolved to one of big time yeah yeah biggest big time money making machines you can attach yourself to this made some of the richest individuals whether you're the rapper the lawyer the executive like that's true you know what I mean the supply chain but then I think that's why you know when you get the likes of a wz coming out and Kendrick Lamar they stand out like a sore thumb because like they are rapping about but that's what music is about to stand out for those who that want to look like everybody they don't get nowhere why you think Dip set was so successful sucessful yeah because we stood out on purpose we don't want to look like or H or sound like no one else m we want yall to above all see us when we walk in the building and hear us when we get on that [ __ ] mic you heard why would you guys the diplomats I never like where did that come from the diplomats the name the diplomats yeah we diplomats oh ah okay that sounded cool no we diplomats we are Harlem diplomats and we take it as that you heard we go to the Embassy when we land in countries you heard all right okay okay okay I I sort of get that bro so in the business and how you still making money right now like from music just like how is it royalties damn you asking a lot of questions bro no I want to know bro I'm so I've got so many questions I want to ask you bro I'll tell you this music is supposed to be used so you can make as much ancillary dollars as you can because the music ain't promised everybody 15 minutes of fame ranges from a small 15 minutes of fame to a run like we having within that minute the 15 minutes the fame you better do a lot of other things to secure your bag because music is not going to be thing you be able to get paid off forever unless you're the DRS and the J that's not even 1% that's you know what I mean so you think about that so you better have some hustle you better learn how to you better have some business sense you better put your credit in order you better do a few things to secure you if you are artist [ __ ] leverage powerful penda yeah man how do you feel man when these kids these days wrap up about you know trying to act tough and rap about stuff they never done like you guys red about stuff you lived I mean I do believe a lot of these kids are going through a lot of [ __ ] that we went through and then a lot of the kids are talking about [ __ ] that they see but most of the kids are all growing up in the same community that all of that [ __ ] is going on so who tells them they don't have the right to talk about [ __ ] that they're not doing when that's still [ __ ] that they're seeing oh sure Ah that's powerful but the problem I have a problem when they rapping like they did it but they just R from somebody else's Vantage Point understand that but most of these artists that you've seen in the game some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I pretty firm in his in in his music that I'm a believer that he did some of that [ __ ] he can talk about just me I don't know you possibilities are possibilities but some things just seem correct you know mean I can't tell you for sure cuz it is music you know what I mean but some things seem correct [ __ ] man bro you got to come out to man you got to you know we haven't had a proper uh hip-hop concert in sa like since 50 N since you are come on back to the city does concerts man ah those are for old people empd the bigest artist in South Africa right now Hip-Hop Hip-Hop uh there's a guy called nastyc but nesty came here he doesn't know know you f poopa who's that nah F poopa Nigerian West African artist massive he used to pop not now for real still massive bigger than like ber boyo still it's different type of music oh stadiums is 50 60,000 people like what is this following this gu what's his name f poop F poop I don't know him bro he's from Nigeria yeah yeah yeah yeah Nigerian Prett pretty big yeah humongous bro how big was was 50 Cent bro like during his Reign man like how big was 50 Cent [ __ ] retardedly big it wasn't nothing bigger than him was Drake before Drake was dring he was oh [ __ ] he did it like it was like 50 was on a run that he never even touched the club bro like [ __ ] never seen him in the club he only did Arenas I never knew too many artist that just did that you dig like the [ __ ] was super massive every [ __ ] Rec he came out with was was going platinum and I'm just telling you the facts you heard and I always got to speak factual no matter how I feel about a person the [ __ ] was on top Super on top it was no way to knock him off his d i remember Jay-Z dropped the diss track on you did you guys resolve that beef I think you were not happy with him as the president of De jam oh man um we never really had a beef um we had some feuds back and forth through the situations that were going on over other people um and me being who I am I had to hold my ground um but to know that he actually talked about me in multiple of his records mean that I was pretty big in his eyes you dig true true cuz I didn't hear him talk about too many people in his career and if he did talk you talk about you on the record that meant something you know what I mean and I was then so for me that I I I took that like what it was like you dig like yeah J doesn't respond to take the time out to say my name you heard if I'm if I'm not that big of a deal to you you would never ever a am I am I right talk about a person you heard true it's it's a form of respect and ackowledge 100% am I right in saying a lot of [ __ ] are scared of Jay-Z bro cuz we interviewed Dam Ian I don't I don't know I'm not a lot of [ __ ] you heard I'm a man so I couldn't I I couldn't tell you that you heard I ain't scared to nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that that that dentist yeah the dentist got me there you heard you can walk in you could walk we about to fight right now you a dentist walk in you got it you got it like you got it bow down you got it I don't want no smoke let me get out of here M fact word Jimmy before you go man uh what beefs did you have so you had something beef with Jay-Z right no man I just told you we had some feuds stemming from that's beef bro stemming from other things that going on um my problem like it was all part of Us coming up in the game and things were happening we were signing a Rockefeller cam was sign a Rockefeller actually then we got opportunity to Diplomat records um the split between uh Jay and Dame came um artist took sides some took the J side some took the the Dame side which side were you on we was on the Dame side OB Dash yeah Dame Dash that's do you think Dame Dash is misunderstood bro huh you think Dame Dash is misunderstood um too smart for his own good I get that yeah if you had the opportunity again you sometimes being the smartest person in the room could be held against you especially when you want everybody to know that you're the smartest person in the room yeah yeah yeah and I get given a second chance would you still side with Dam never you wouldn't never whoa I never signed a d at all that was no no no like sided with him took his side oh give a second chance I wouldn't have sided with none of them I would we would haveed our [ __ ] business but you learned that with age yeah you heard we had no business butting into that because it wasn't a street beef and this wasn't some [ __ ] that had to do with us ultimately we were holding our [ __ ] down and [ __ ] like that but business-wise if we would if we knew what we knew now we would let them get into that they self y'all can handle that because we got records to put out and music to make and we got our own record label to run you dig and this my hinder what we got going on by us taking sides and that's why I tell people now even when people seeing all the Diplomat [ __ ] like y bro don't don't get in to taking sides with me and my bro because you never know how that might end up and if it end up to a point where we do figure out our situation then I'm looking at you funny now me and you got forever you heard you dig and there are plenty of people that did that and plenty people that didn't and plenty people that showed the same amount of love that he showed to me that it showed to cam when we were going through our imaginary situations and [ __ ] like that cuz it's all imaginary when you know you can figure figure it out now it's a saying that like don't just be in people's business when especially when they've beef and take sides cuz and I I had to learn that a lot I had took me a long time to learn that because of how we come up in the Cod that they supposedly treat us in teach us in the street and [ __ ] like that but sometimes that's not the smallest thing that we can do and then uh push a t did you ever beef with him nah that was some [ __ ] that we was on record um he did some [ __ ] I did some [ __ ] you dig that was it I never followed that I didn't even know did you know there's a pusher T me I ain't got no just know I don't know I know you're from I know you're from Africa and [ __ ] like that but people don't play with me yeah for real and I don't I don't play with people this ain't no playground you heard this is the street it's two ways don't get caught up in a yellow line it's going to be hard to cross bro yeah you heard no I don't trust me I'm from Africa but I saw what happened at the airport so that [ __ ] escalated yeah [ __ ] that was self-defense man God yo bro it looked like that guy was just messing with you bro I wish that could have never happened cuz I was trying to avoid that by all cause but [ __ ] happened sometime man you dig and definitely not not going to allow anybody do anything to me at all bro when I saw that video right like I don't know I just met you today right but I saw when you lifted that guy from the escalator threw him down he literally just went on survival mode bro like it's like there was a button that you switched on and you just like I don't [ __ ] care but yeah yeah no I mean no that's a button that I choose not to push you heard yeah exactly like you can go there quickly I choose to show restraint for a lot of reasons in my life and sometimes it's hard to you dig but where I'm at in life right now I choose positivity or all the other things that come out my way because I know how it is to be negative I was once that negative person that was very aggressive and ready to do something to to you over the minimal alistic of things and [ __ ] like that so I'm blessed to be here to try to be able to show restraint and so so the guy so the guy at the airport you guys on the same plane yeah we on the same plane so you don't have a private jet no I don't have a private jet I'm not a rich man come on Jimmy you made so much money over the years but anyway so you're in the plane what's he what's this guy saying to you like um I don't know man just [ __ ] happens I know just the started from the plane just know that what you see happen on so it starts on the plane you restrain yourself you're like all right cool my dog say whatever you want to say yeah when he gets to the airport I mean the escalator that's when I think he starts hitting you or something right yeah something like that he tried to do something like that and that's what we see man but like I said this is not something that I want to glorify it's not you think he knows who you are um if if he didn't he know now no I'm I'm sorry see sorry cuz some people just provoke I believe he was he was trolling a little bit and things like that which is cool you I mean I'm if if you in New York not time 10 you do know who I am so you know I believe it was a bit of that but God bless man hopefully that they all right hopefully the old man um cool you dig like are you spiritual cuz you mentioned God a lot man yeah I'm very spiritual very spiritual very spiritual I've been my whole family is spiritual and what does that mean in an American sense cuz um us as African for me it means a lot of different things um I was told what the church was as a young age as they drag you to church every Sunday your grandmother your moms and your family and things like that and you really don't understand what that is from that young but as you get older and you go through certain things and you make it through certain things you understand that there is a God and everybody has a relationship with their God different and sometimes going to church doesn't mean that you love your God any less or he loves you any less you dig and you say spiritual I'm very spiritual I say my prayers as much as I can sometime two three four times in a day you dig man doesn't take away from what I do and who I am because I'm still in the line for everything else everybody is in but I know every day that I'm able to wake up and every day I'm able to make a dollar and every day I'm able to keep living the life that I am I should be thankful you heard cuz that's not just me that's a higher vibration that's definitely a God you dig and I'm well aware that I've escaped many things in life that Lord knows I should not be here but then again I should be here cuz he put here for a reason he gives his toughest battles to his strongest people what the Bible say you heard and I've made it through some very tough battles which are minimal to some of the people that I had next to me in their battles you know what I mean so it's like we all got to figure it out Jim Jones thank you so much man and thanks to God for bringing you here man definitely I appreciate for making time for us bro thank you man we appreciate you tired when you got you I appreciate the fact that you could even make it man got any last question yeah man bro you said you've gone through some tough battles and you mentioned how you lost your dad at like 26 but also that you you pretty much raised yourself from the age of 15 you know from that relationship or lack of it like has it affected how you father your children 100% this made me the best father I could be but me my relationship with my father was always a great one even though he wasn't there because every day he wasn't I love them even more I wasn't one of them kids that was bitter you dig I understand that everybody went through something and at that age what he was going through there was a lot of drug addiction and I knew that from a very young age I understood what drugs was and how they were tearing up my family I never held that against my father and I was just blessed able to get back with him before he passed away so he could see that his son was making something out of himself at that time I was already signed to her uh we think we just got the Rockefeller deal so it was a very big deal for me to be able to get back with my father to show him that me somebody that you should be proud of and I know him looking down right now got be like damn I did that so you know and that's how I feel but then in turn TR here my son I don't you know I mean like I just you know mean I pride myself on making sure that I I turned my son into somebody that was way better than I could ever be you oh man yeah that's my guy shout out to you man is your son still wearing Crocs to you br he's a Croc guy you heard yeah Crocs for Life bro Crocs for Life jumping out the beam with a fresh paer Crocs on I don't want to stand him Jimmy before you go your top five rappers all time my top five rappers of all you got to give us your top five bro yeah Tupac definitely Jay-Z Drake um Drake he not like us by default of course um rock cam no Eminem No No whoa not even big you from NY and not to take nothing away from him he's extremely nice it's retardedly nice when it comes to rap but I listen to artists that kind of you know I mean do something for the life that I live and kind of what I've been through and most of these artist or artist that I'm talking about people that you know what I mean like [ __ ] better stop hating on my boy Drake all of a sudden all this Drake land I get it I get it you ain't like us let's not do that let's not forget the 15 years he been spanking [ __ ] around this [ __ ] all all all over this [ __ ] all the alley he been giving most of these artists that are now seeming to be turning on them let's you know let's not some of them gave him their best hits let's not forget the big picture here and [ __ ] like but what the hip-hop culture and this game is built on competition so I yeah but what is he with it you heard you better put your best foot forward but what has Drake given back to the culture oh that you so love here we go um what is he giving back to the culture I seen him take a lot of people on tour and turn them even richer than they already was I I seen him give a lot of people hits that they would have never had if he wouldn't have got on a record things for the culture that wouldn't have happened in turn records that we would have never knew about him to record that the culture love and things like that I mean he's not from here Canada from the hood I don't believe he owes America too much but the monster that give back to where he's from maybe we should ask about what has he done in Canada giving back to his community as opposed to what he giving back to the culture of the United States when this is not where he's from and I think that's the Divide right there now if we talk about what he's done in Canada and if it's not up to par then maybe we can talk about oh you dig but that's I think that's for the people of Canada you dig like yeah cuz but it's the people of America in the hood who made him of course you heard about but that he didn't grw up in America he didn't grew up here you heard so if you was an artist from Africa yeah like boy yeah do you think bnab boy has responsibility what do Niger of United stes n I'm taking it back home bro super duper big yes but that's what people then will call a culture vulture cuz you come into a space you know do what the people of that space do benefit from them is is is you understand what we doing like it's bro it's not because he's not take so he's not taking benab boy is Nigerian it's a Nigerian culture that is now popular in America so Drake took an American culture and enriched himself but what he's saying is that he doesn't owe anything to America cuz he's not from yet right okay right yeah I mean [ __ ] he's got no obligation Fair argument he got no obligation Fair argument yeah like he lived if he lived like I don't I don't that's how I see it you heard like that's how I see it you dig but all these [ __ ] we talking about are filthy filthy filthy rich off the opinions of men you heard what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never but what I'm just trying to tell you is how this game is played yeah you heard yeah geez man the more we talk the more they get paid the loser still gets paid too if there is a loser I don't think there's a loser when they all getting Millions off of this [ __ ] I don't think I mean like and I understand end all be all in the whole circle of it but I'm I've been in this [ __ ] for so long I'm miss you can see the politics of really get you to understand of what's really going on and [ __ ] like that this [ __ ] don't pay me a dollar to talk about it yeah hey man how tight you with Joe Bon he calls us those African guys with numbers oh yeah yeah yeah Jo this my guy buts what's up man he cool yeah he's an instigator definely know how to get under people's skin yeah I've known Joan for so long [ __ ] like that um I'm proud of him put himself in his position a whole new Lane to make a shitload of money um where it stem from the culture this what I'm talking about all the ancillary things that you need to get going on if are a artist of some type of success you got to use that to get where you want look at Joe used his startom and rap no matter what it was to able to finesse a whole new Lane of podcasting that true he's pretty big in damn near one of the forefathers of it from our culture right y'all started before him or after him we started after him but now we have more numbers than him hey doesn't matter no numbers do matter I mean no J and get num I'm cool with that but you won't be never be the considered the forefather of this whole no no no no no no no you dig 100% yeah it's Jo Joan numbers is cool I'm cool with that you get paid and I know what's a race you might be number one you heard yeah yeah but you still never be the forefather always going to have that under him like I've created this Lane for your how I feel about Ling hip hop yeah of course I got that under my belt that's mine y can never say that was yours at all yeah okay how much money you made off of it and [ __ ] like that at the end of the day you it's mine you heard Still My still mine so we always ask anybody any guest that we get on the show in closing what do you want to be remembered as man when it's all said and done I want I want to be remembered I want I want them to know that I gave more than I took because I was able to take a lot in my time amen just like that sh hey man I wish you put me on love and& hip-hop bro they got the African love of Hip Hop they got Jamaican love of Hip Hop they got they got any type of Love of Hip Hop we need the South African love of Hip Hop thanks Jim man shout out thank you bro I appreciate you man thank you we appreciate podcast and chill we out of here man boom peace welcome to Black excellenc do not fear for if you do just sip on some Grand and if you still do ask ourselves what would M [Music] do when they ask you do not fear for if you do just say an TV this is the the medicine of censorship this is the pill which one is that one podcast and chill	I I know I've helped try s uh they come to tra songs that you know today he's always in he's always in we know why no n but he was a young kid at the time and uh they were actually going to cut him from the label we had a big uh um it's like uh one of them uh some events they be doing not the talent shows the uh well was something like that all the artists had to come perform and then they pretty much didn't know that they was on a Cho and block at the time when I was an executive and and he was one of the artists that they were going to cut and I remember Kevin L specifically ask me yo what we should do with him I'm about to cut him I don't know what to do with him and when I heard him uh singing and I saw him perform I was like this is this is one artist you should keep and did that and now we all tra songs on so many dope ass records is it true you could have signed Drake yeah I had a chance to sign uh I had a chance to do business with Drake um through Allan grum blat um when I was doing business at cotch um it was a different era I didn't understand what Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when	7	4	8	I know I've helped try...when I was an executive and and he was one of the artists that they were going to cut and I remember Kevin L specifically ask me yo what we should do with him I'm about to cut him I don't know what to do with him and when I heard him uh singing and I saw him perform I was like this is this is one artist you should keep and did that and now we all tra songs on so many dope ass records	is it true you could have signed Drake	8,5,9	2,4,6	8	5	9	2	4	6
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr730VmL-lk	4,054	rr730VmL-lk	2024-06-27 00:00:00	like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano no well Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he showed me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah just understand everybody going there my guy I understand the hate exactly what you're saying yeah bro what's his name I don't it's fine you remember those some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I ain't scared of nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that the dentist yeah dentist got me there what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never [Music] [Music] yo Jimmy you do not look like you want to be here bro like someone forced you to be it's like you have to do that par they're the biggest podcast in Africa you have to be there I never look like I want to be nowhere man you got to part of me but congratulations to yall having the biggest podcast in Africa that that that's very big Africa being one of the biggest continents in the world a lot of people over there shut up man why you so tired bro crazy weekend I've been working all weekend shows different states traveling Planes Trains automobiles you know how I be a little bit too much partying yeah road kill it's tough but what's up how y'all feeling I'm good bro I literally saw um I saw your video uh yesterday for your new single the one you shot in Miami two turn temp yeah yeah how you feel about it bro that [ __ ] is lit man looks like our Vibe bro cuz we've been to Miami myself and and my partner but we never like experienced the Miami night life we were playing in Florida yeah we're DJing in Florida but two South Africans like the diaspora then West Palm Beach as well yeah DJ also yeah like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano what it's a genre it's called a piano no no cuz I'm a piano even you heard like you saw he did the whole Keys thing it has nothing to do with the piano that's where it started but has nothing to do with it these days when when I met charlot man he said the exact same thing he's like oh so you're a podcaster I'm like yeah and then you DJs I'm like no I play I'm a Pian like you're a Pianist man you one talented [ __ ] n it's a genre of music man what kind of genre is that like it's like slowed down house music with a lot of s that African influence that's the only way I can describe it so it's a it's a mix of a marriage house yeah a marriage of house music which originated here at Chicago and stuff and then we slowed it down created a sub genre called guo where guys were sort of rapping but very minimalist raps called guo then the kids were born like in the 2000s late '90s then created a whole meshup of those two genres and it's called Piano cuz a a lot of Americans think it's um afro beats it's not afro beats yeah a lot of the hence I avoided saying afro beats cuz AFR beats is from Nigeria and amap piano is far from afro beat afro beat borrows from am piano now where is amap piano originated from South Africa from the hoods from the Cassis yeah but when I when I was looking at your video bro uh the only thing in my mind was like bro what's a night like out with Jim Jones CU that [ __ ] look lit there [ __ ] everywhere bro um please please describe a night out in Miami with Jim so let's say we going to Miami right now I mean some nice are better than others but been doing it so long it's kind of like the the bare minimum for us to do in Miami just having fun but it still work at the same time like every every I'm I'm not just going out partying for no reason ni like that was we knew what we was kind of getting into we wanted to film a video so we knew we was going to ramp it up a bit take it to the to the highest form going crazy as we could but that actually happened to fall on a big weekend um and one of my dudes was celebrating so everything kind of happened for a reason but yeah Miami could take you for take you for a few a few trips man like okay so so so me and you we get in the car right I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm in Miami I hate you cuz you got a house there you stay there right yeah I got I got I got cribs there so I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm by the strip you know that Miami strip right yeah yeah yeah I mean see that's the thing about Miami when you come to visit Miami that's where people are know at like the strip and things like that I guess stand by Collins and ocean driveing all that people that live there don't really do the strip like that like you just you dig people congregate usually at night time and all the spots that usually go on down there um okay so we got security obviously you got to roll around with security right um yeah I mean that' be the safest thing for me to do so we get out the cut with security when you get to the bouncers are they letting us in cuz it's Jim Jones or are they checking our IDs cuz they've been checking our IDs just to buy beer here bro Che ID everywhere yeah everywhere yeah no I I don't think I produced my ID in since I was a teenager at clubs but yeah you won't need your ID when you with me so we walking in right yeah we going to get in oh do we have a section do we they going to give us a section VIP yeah they going to give us a section we going to get some bottles and let the night ensue got this thing called Power Hour you go to the club maybe like 2:45 to 3:45 in and out no sweat so what's the what's the purpose of that exercise the Power Hour yeah like why would you be in the cloud for an hour why would I be in a club for 4 hours it's Fu I mean I've been part I've been partying since I've been 14 I've been making money to party since I've been 18 I'm kind of burnt out so at this point I try to wait till the club is at the most popping or lest moment which is usually that hour right there and I get to enjoy everything that happened tonight and leave out of there and not be all burnt out what what does your wife say bro cuz you're married man you're surrounded by all these girls like you know I mean I'm going to worry about the women yeah is minimal to the money worry about the money more than anything so so a woman doesn't like give you grief when you come home I yeah you get you get grief all the time if you in a relationship no matter what you do if you had a job on Wall Street you get home you're going to get grief no around it you heard yeah there's women everywhere unless you work in the LGBT Club then you know I mean even there you still going to go home and get like it's no way around it you're going to get you know I mean like yeah so you've never had like been home and you had to explain like yo no man I was just doing music video it's just work like I don't know that good you going to explain yourself in every relationship and things like that I got a good woman at home who understands a job I have and things like that so for the most part but for the most part I'm a very responsible respectable person when when I'm in the streets and when I do have to interact with females and things like that yeah anyway H ladies and gentlemen welcome to another special edition of podcasting chill so CU yeah I am here we're chilling with the [ __ ] Legend Kings of Harlem please make some noise for Jim Jones Jim I gotta say bro I gotta say bro I'm going to be honest with you when I find that your name was GMO geloo gelo I'm like I'm like Jim Jones losing some G points here man what the [ __ ] is that I'm Puerto Rican and a rubian my pops is Puerto Rican the word gelo means William in English is a Spanish Spanish name cuz you know what I was thinking I was thinking that guy who does the show late night you know the short guy who does like the interviews with um this late night comedian man what are the late night shows oh man not uh bad with these oh gosh the late night guy bro uhri or something not Corin O'Brien no not Trevor Noah the other American guy man like uh old new no he's like jimm Kimel Jimmy Kimel jimy he's got that he's got that short guy his name is julo oh I don't I don't I don't got got me messed up I don't even really watch TV like that bro okay I'll be out chasing the money I ain't even got time to do that and if and if I do got some time I'm trying to get a little bit of rest or I'm thinking about money [ __ ] is crucial out here right now you better get to your dollar a lot of [ __ ] about to happen and if you ain't got no coins boy you going to be [ __ ] up you ever been to uh Puerto Rico yeah I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times yeah but business not for the Heritage part of it so like you don't know where like your your your parents were at Familiar of the place where my father's from but I never really got to do the whole go to give with my family understand the roots understand you know I mean like I didn't get to get to that part of it but I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times you find like that's important like to know you it's definitely important I had this um I did an interview not too long ago about um how important the roots are and get to know where my family from know I mean so we'll start to do that pretty soon so so so your dad you know you know your dad right yeah he's passed away oh okay God bless rest in peace what happened to him he passed away yeah like was it um medical thing or yeah natural causes oh damn like when you young or um maybe when I was uh 23 24 oh damn bro SED to hear that man maybe 26 right before my son passed right before my God bless right before my son Bor bro but you like 47 right now I look good for 47y old man no homo you know what I mean thank you very much like what was what's keeping you looking so good is it the yoga yeah a lot of yoga a lot of Pilates I stay in shape um I'm very uh very big on Fitness um work out like five six times a week um it's one of the best ways to stay young and have better chances of living a long life is that why you do it or maybe there's other purpose like you know a lot of people are in gym for their mental health I mean it's very it's very it's very therapeutic I will say that but my main goal is to look good of course but to give me better chances of living forever bro so how you got into rap um I don't know correct me if I'm wrong right but you used to skip church and go to the train station to to rap like no I never skipped Church to go on the train station and rap I skipped Church to go to the train station and go play video games and run the streets and do everything a bad little kid did from the streets of hollow when we was like S8 and n and things like that I don't know if you know about anything about the subway system in New York but that's the pathway system that get you to all five burrows and we definitely was on the subway which maybe we shouldn't have been but we was a little uh loose um for me rapping actually rapping didn't start later on in life to actually uh C and um they I got a deal and things like that and that was the first time me myself really thought about actually raing cuz I'll be honest with you like um dipet I don't really know much about dipet however I know about you guys individually like Cameron old boy like one of my favorite songs uh jul sna had hear that that was Cameron and Jules and jwes he both was on he both old boy and heon yeah why don't you jump on those tracks man those tracks are massive they was already done I was there for the making of both of them incredible tracks yeah and then how did dipit start start like how did you guys start the whole movement um organically kiss him Harem gr up together um talented kids Cam and Mason BL sh was they already was doing music um Everybody gradu graduated high school I didn't get to go to college they went to college they got kicked out they got kicked out they come moved in with me from that that was a uh foundation for them to D into the music you've been in the game for like 20 30 odd years right been in the game for since 1997 how would you describe the different eras of like um hip-hop right especially now cuz um obviously we all know about the Kendrick Lamar song they're not like us but I didn't know how big it was until I landed in in in America and it's like it's like a movement the video yeah it's like huge it's massive bro yeah it's a big record Kendrick did that shout out to Kendrick shout out to my boy Drake but what do you think about like the evolution of hip-hop in all the different areas you've been a part of what do you mean what do I think about it it's a great thing to be a part of something that um you could only dream of everybody doesn't get a chance to be in this game um I've been fortunate enough to be here for so many genres and errors and seen so many people come and go I've watched the smallest artist to the biggest artist who you thow will be here forever and going um I got stories for days I can tell you about um how I feel about it I feel great I feel blessed you know what I mean I feel lucky this [ __ ] don't it's not promised and for me to still be here is definitely a blessing so in the 90s what was the vibe like man like like what in the 90s as far as what in hip-hop yeah it was it was different um 90s was a great era um one of my favorite errors um that was the era we first first came outside um started to get out deal uh very aggressive era uh no social media um cell phones were just being born um everything that you seen you was something that you could grab on to um artists had to go to the towns we couldn't just get on your phone and music you had to go get you couldn't just have access to it so it was a it was it it was a hunt um you had to touch the Tails kiss babies do radio everything like it was just a different ER but who was around like during that time when you who was around like Tupac was did you like meet Tupac Tupac I didn't get to meet Tupac um Tupac passed away what 95 was that yeah right in big in '97 um no I got to see Tupac do a few times in Harlem um that was dope but um not Tupac passed away before we got to get in the record game but I've seen a lot of a lot of artists in my time from a young age to old age we were partying in clubs as teenagers before we even got a record deal and things like that like we were in clubs since high school and [ __ ] like that so any interactions with Big L he was from Harlem right yeah shouts to Big Al Big Al was definitely from Harlem um 139th NFL Big L um I was one of the Cam's uh close friends um actually put cam on a dope record that started to give uh Cam and bloodshed and and her mcgree her was already popping too but guy gave them some notice when it came to R so when you come out like who's who's popping at that time is it git is it mop D it's way before G when we came out I was like Eminem just dropped oh [ __ ] this is Slim Shady not M like Slim Shady I I remember that that was like cam had dropped and Eminem had dropped DMX had dropped Nori had dropped um Big Pun had dropped lud Chris Luda had just started coming out um Nelly Nelly down down baby yeah shouts to coola love um yeah that type of error shouts to shouts to Fat Joe shouts to Buster they was already in it uh Nas was already in it Jay start going crazy that's when he just started taking over with the 1 million 2 million 3 million 4 um yeah very competitive very edgy um lot of the big dogs um had real roots in the streets um especially in the streets of New York so that put that put a real Mystique on everything when it came to the music um all the events with topnotch um it just was a different feel man it was a heavy heavy dope boy era um this was before the drug dealers wanted to be Rappers that's when the rappers wanted to be drug dealers you know what I mean and and that Arrow was was a very dope high impact trenel and Russian it was a was a great error bro I saw an interview you did correct me if I'm wrong I might be paraphrasing but you mentioned a place called the tunnel or something where everybody would be and you guys were [ __ ] [ __ ] in the bathrooms please please describe that manest cuz a place like that couldn't exist right now bro with all this woke [ __ ] I mean yeah and the cancel cult I would say it was probably the greatest Club The Hip hopers have seen and it was during the 90s era it was the Golden Era um in New York they got you had stories about like Studio 54 in that era when everybody used all the biggest of big used to go to Studio 54 well the tunnel was what Studio 54 was to that era to our era and it didn't make so many people and nationalities and genres and just everybody was like a big pumbo all for the sake of the culture you had some of the flyest models to some of the biggest drug dealers biggest gang bangers I mean every former elicit street life you could think of was in the spot along with the biggest artists and rappers and actors and models that you could find into all athletes um it would definitely like that um and was this like per invite or just like anybody could Rock up there nah you couldn't just rock up there for this is '90s entry was like $100 first of all $100 for a club that was the first time we ever heard of it and that was a lot of money back then especially we probably started in '94 going there teenager so $100 was sto a lot of money in New York at the time sneakers wasn't even costing $100 um to get in the club you definitely had to be connected to know somebody or you had to wait on a long line that usually was a block long um they had like an Express line you could pay $100 to get on Express line that'll get you to the door quicker and then you pay your entry fee um streets was blocked off you was a big dog you was able to bring your cars down there I was able to bring like four five of them if I wanted to um yeah the club was just it was different man pull up to the door security they taking people's shoes off they searching your jacket twisting people inside out like they about to go on the Rikers Island I got to I gave security High files I never took my shoes off and not since high school I when we used go in high school we used to get our shoes taken off and things like that make you feel like you going to the cental bookings and [ __ ] like that so what gave you that clout that allowed you to bring four cars in when nobody or you had to be a big dog to bring four cars in when you could just give them a high five instead of removing your shoes and you're young by then like what gives you that CL I was a big dog since a small pup bro J yeah man what gave you those you know credentials at such a young age to suppos all these people cuz Dr Tre was there yeah you putting in four cars not removing shoes I was a good Lord Biden citizen everybody love Jim Jones even even the girls like would you just rock up they say let's go to the bathroom that's it yeah now that well yeah there was a lot of that going on they had a uh the layout was different first of all the club was a block long a whole city block um wow there was like three other four other clubs within the club or spots that look like clubs um the main floor was humongously big the DJ was like a a lifeguard Tower in the middle of the club um you go upstairs they had a VR big V PE upstairs and then go through a door it open up to the bathroom the bathroom was like a unisex Club [ __ ] had a big ass bar in the middle of the bathroom uh bunch of stalls lined up um that [ __ ] was like a hotel inside Lions cocaine everything yeah they was going down a lot of sex was going down there a lot of a lot of drugs was going down in there um yeah the tunnel was definitely uh a landmark to New York City when it comes to the clubs I I definitely um I always think about that club um it did a lot for me in my life um it gave me a lot of imagination when it came to to the culture and the things I was seeing from a young age as to where I want to be and the direction I want to go in yeah we was going there since high school so when you seeing people like Mike Tyson and all these people coming in big cheer on and just having their way as a kid go out got to go to school the next morning you you in school thinking about that [ __ ] like w man this school [ __ ] [ __ ] this school [ __ ] I need some money and I need to go to the tunnel that's all I want to [ __ ] do that's wild man now can you imagine because we in sa right we're looking at all the videos that you guys are pulling out there like we're looking at this lifestyle and then you F Track to 2024 right M and the P didy thing breaks out right I mean i' rather not even to get into that yeah just don't I rather the do I don't you know I mean like it's not it's not my business oh I mean like this you heard God bless it's too much n yeah and it's not me to have an opinion on certain things cuz I ain't perfect I've been through my own [ __ ] in life and I see a lot of people that have even this doing too much just know that I ain't perfect so I choose not to talk on certain [ __ ] that you know what I mean a lot of other people people been talking about I let them keep doing the talk and I got other [ __ ] to work on I'm trying to work on me being a better person yeah I respect I respect that man but were ever part of any gang or like you sounding like the F never hey we don't the F in South Africa man only PS I'm just playing with you yeah I've been affiliated with the bloods in New York City um ENT Tre um yeah so crazy have you ever been to sa like have you ever been to Africa or um I've been to Africa where did you go uh gaban gille damn G to perform there um I went to perform there but uh got some great friends there they actually had ran the country at the time this is before the big yeah yeah overtaking and stuff like that but I had a ball out there I got to go to an island called Pony um that was a dope experience as they took me to the jungles I got to see some of the indigenous people um it was like a a real um life Awakening like and I got to see how also the rich people live out there also like I got to see both sides like that you know what I mean it was it was a great experience I out there for like a week um I haven't been back since but yeah it was dope you never been to South Africa never been to South Africa bro so the reason why I asked that is because like yo bro like American culture has infiltrated South Africa like you can't believe like you know we got people worshiping you guys you know Jim Jones rappers and everything you so we've got rappers who rap just like you and youd say they're like Bloods and Crips but they've never they've never left sa you know cuz that's how influential uh the culture is right but from you when you see or hear that like what do you guys think like do you think is like some [ __ ] like or like leave don't don't follow the gang life you know what I mean oh as far as that is concerned um there's two sides to that this what you do as a gang member that turns it into something that becomes a crime or whatever that end but the Brotherhood part of it is what the most of us joined up for when we coming up in the hood and need that Brotherhood lean on somebody is that type of camaraderie that pretty much stood for and there's a lot of other great attributes that comes with affiliation or you becoming a part of a gang um it gets twisted up because we all come up in these urban communities and our back is against the wall we don't have no opportunities um it's very dormant uh we on top of each other so naturally testosterone testosterone wins in a lot of these situations where these kids find s in bad situations and for that I would tell people to kind of stay away from this type of life um I don't want to oppose my will we all going to experience what we going to experience but I can't tell you the consequences to this type of Lifestyle could be very dear you heard ethal a lot of people don't get to make it where I made it and Escape that lifestyle that could have put me away or could have put me in the dirt I mean so here as a Living testament to tell you that these consequences are terrible the odds on you making it out of that life in a positive manner are very slim I mean but if you are in that life and you taking it as a Brotherhood and try to uplift your brothers I know there's a lot of people around you that are doing a lot of [ __ ] that that that that that's very crazy you know what I mean if you're a part of that and you got the positive minder then you try to uplift your brother and instill some positivity within them because it's very cold out here so I've always been curious bro like so when that when you you you start getting immersed you know or Affiliated in the gang life how does that affect the conversation at home with your parents like your mom your dad and just the domestic you know Dynamics I a't grow my parents I was a grown man since I was like 15 I made my own money since I was like 16 my grandmother left me in high school man I was raising my Sisters by myself in the projects I hustle every I ever got in my life that's why music saved my life I was so grateful to be able to be next to cam and him getting a deal at such a very young age to be able to still be making money off that [ __ ] right now you were U anr for Warner uh music group yeah I was the director of anr for Warner Music Group um years ago uh shouts to Kevin L shouts to Leo Cohen for giving me the opportunity um great opportunity uh I excelled at it extremely very young with a lot of power but didn't understand what I had at hand um didn't have too many people in my corner that were telling me the things that I should have been doing with that type of position as opposed to some type of weird way be hating you know I mean so that's what happened but as you get older you learn you learn and you move on who did you discover while you were in that position uh I would tell you a story I I know I've helped try s uh they come to tra songs that you know today he's always in he's always in we know why no n but he was a young kid at the time and uh they were actually going to cut him from the label we had a big uh um it's like uh one of them uh some events they be doing not the talent shows the uh well was something like that all the artists had to come perform and then they pretty much didn't know that they was on a Cho and block at the time when I was an executive and and he was one of the artists that they were going to cut and I remember Kevin L specifically ask me yo what we should do with him I'm about to cut him I don't know what to do with him and when I heard him uh singing and I saw him perform I was like this is this is one artist you should keep and did that and now we all tra songs on so many dope ass records is it true you could have signed Drake yeah I had a chance to sign uh I had a chance to do business with Drake um through Allan grum blat um when I was doing business at cotch um it was a different era I didn't understand what Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he show me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah understand everybody going at my guy I understand the hate man the hate is so phenomenal it's just how this game go man this game is so tricky man these [ __ ] just like females in this game we ain't going to get into that man there's a lot of uh but wait wait wait so so with Drake like are you are you seeing him perform like try songs or like you just heard of the guy just a conversation Allan called me about signing a kid let me hear some of his music um and I was like the kid know how to rap but I don't know what to do with him his image is crazy and him couple years later heard him on a Wheezy mixtape going crazy I was like wow this kid is about to go wham inside of this business and he sure did and you're know trying to call Weezy like yo man I gotta get that kid or something n he was already signed a young money and jcole did you miss on jcole as well I could have signed J Cole bro jcole was in the studio with me every day and at that point jcole I he's he remind me of a knockoff Drake and not to say it like that but that's who he sounded like he came to my studio every day rapping to these Drake beats rapping like Drake Cadence like Drake he could rap his ass off yeah you heard yeah but it was already a drake out there he had the Caesar it was different like two lightskinn [ __ ] might not K when raing the same but you never know what you got in front of you man you dig and those are lessons I I've took with me to moving forward when I see artists and and I hate artists I always give them more than just hearing just just I got to I got to I gotta try to capture the whole picture I make sure I just don't you mean so I don't miss nothing else because I've missed a few people and I've helped a few people um gain a lot of success in in my time in this industry whether it been by me having a meeting with them or me having influence on them or you know I mean so you know and there's never like any animosity like Jake Cole or Drake never came up to be like yo you could have signed me look at me now bro I mean me and Drake is cool as [ __ ] um I see J Cole I don't think he I mean I don't think that's no he some [ __ ] he might want to keep to himself not to be like that sh the co he not that type of artist he's not a you I mean yeah you did I look I look at as we can see I want to mention an artist who like I'm really fond of like I think this guy's [ __ ] amazing musically talented everything that he touched like turned to Gold who's that uh kid k bro K Cy yeah yeah did you help him with his career yeah I birth K Cy wow J me how so bro bir them nobody would have know who K Cy was at all if I a jump on this remix record but it wasn't even remix he wasn't even a nobody like I tell a story all the time I had a inter used to work for me said he got some dudes that do videos they would like to do a video for me told them come let me see they work they show me their videos the first video they showed me was of the kid Cy record he's on the top of a roof some simple video the record sound more wavy than the opportunity for them to do a video I'm like well if you'll get me the beat to this record I Remix this record and then y'all can shoot the video to that record wow and that's what they did and then um the radio station ripped the record off of YouTube and start playing it at Hot 97 and K Cy was born bro why do you think especially about kid Cy cuz from him when I listen to music right it wasn't really no no other kid Cy record besides the one that I was on yeah man he's not in they don't play his records where I be at at all not to be funny wow bro and we listen to him like all that day and night you know remember only record I know yeah it's the only record I know unless it's like a pop record that everybody know and I and I'm even not paying attention to it but he don't his records don't get played nowhere that i' be at not like that unless I go into a different farm and that's the type of music they playing in one of these funny clubs that play fist pump music and pop music he's not into like you dig like they don't play his music in the clubs I'll be at maybe in Vegas and [ __ ] like that but that's not like they not pumping this [ __ ] in live they not pumping this [ __ ] in Atlanta they not pumping this [ __ ] down the Stafford room or you know what I mean like they I'm not saying nothing like that but I don't hear it in the strip clubs I don't hear like you know what I mean so but he's a very successful person with some of the greats like Kanye to put him in a position to win and [ __ ] like that and I think he's way more better as an actor than he is a musician and that's just my POS that's just my opinion he did I seen him in the movie uh about the race car [ __ ] where he was F the playe like he got a lot of Charisma and [ __ ] like that on on camera for what I could see and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean bro I mean for you as Jim Jones to to see these kids you're introduced to them by an intern and then to hop onto that song it's something selfless you know to just give these unknown kids an opportunity of sharing a song with you where do you think that selflessness comes from how was that unknown kid I'm still an unknown kid anytime I get an opportunity that's an opportunity I should be able to give to somebody else bro the fact that you could even come to our podcast shout out man yeah man you don't even know us exactly what you're saying yeah know us what's his name I don't it's fine you know remember those kids who who did the video for him anyway you know remember I remember like that kids that got the biggest African podcast I'm definitely going to know like them is my guys right family right there appreciate I really mean that that sincerely and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean I I bump in too many people in my life and been across too many people in my journey to actually remember everybody's name but the face and the cause and I mean BR I want to understand right the first time you came up with the concept For Love and Hip Hop where were you what was happening that um that was something like uh me and Christy she had opportunity to do uh her own reality show um and actually fell through and that kind of she was kind of she wanted to do that I can see she was eager about doing that when it fell through kind you know I mean [ __ ] with her mood and [ __ ] like that so so so so so the initial concept what was it was just Chrissy just showing like what's life the initial concept was about she had her own thing going on about a group of women that was supposed to do a reality show had nothing to do with me yeah that [ __ ] fell through she lost that opportunity to end up not going people have been begging me to do reality TV for past couple years at the time and I and you reality TV gold man I refused to do it yeah and then when that happened I was like all right I got I'll do this for you and we'll make it about you and females that have to that are involved with artist such as myself and show what the relationship side is when you're dealing with a high-profile artist and you know what I mean how so that's how that started bro and that thing became a monster super super monster like it's still big till this day bro 100% so do you have like uh ownership in that we we were link a all that you know at that time when maybe the second season we just in a position where we refuse to compromise our dignity for anyone or any dollar and sometimes it be like that you know what I mean um but ain't no stress off my back T my hat to him you no but but but we got to talk about that because you see like this podcast um it's blackowned right it's just me and a couple of other people that are involved in the podcast right and we're always striving for ownership so a lot of um Brands and investors have come to try to buy the podcast and we say know cuz like we believe in ownership and telling the story the way we want to tell it right so what went wrong in that because as a hustler I believe like that's your also end goal MH um it wasn't something that I was just a lot of different layers and [ __ ] like that and I was too worried about doing other things and we had the opportunity to gain all ownership 50% of the whole TV show and all that but it still wasn't worth GE bro that's insane you just let go like that yeah bro it's your brain child bro there is no Love and& Hip Hop without you bro I still got a brain you heard yeah those are for people that don't have a brain that lack creativity people that steal things from you lack what you don't have remember that yeah whether it's money whether it's creativity whatever it is they lack what you don't have ultimately they steal from you you heard I mean we didn't even know C beef if it wasn't for Love and& Hip Hop right yeah yeah yeah definitely yeah bro you gave birth to so many many people man like VI their careers that's the god in me that's why I'm always going to be good yeah she man so any other shows that you're working on like in the pipeline that you want to do I was telling you I working on um a late night show a late night um a late night variety show live in studio audience hopefully we'll be filming in about 40 to 60 days um beautiful concept I do I do believe people going enjoy the show um like I was saying I can't do um a podcast is too personal for me and [ __ ] like that and me watching these podcasts um dealing with these artists me myself don't have the temperament for it you know what I mean um I [ __ ] I T my hat to y'all to have to deal with artists such as myself cuz you never know what type of mood they going to come in you know what I me some of these artists have a air to them where they feel like they better than most and they would never sit and have tea with the with the maintenance guy you heard me myself me going to maintenance guy going to smoke blunts before I get on stage [Music] I live my life and and and currently uh before we let you go man what do you think about the state of hip-hop cuz like statistically numbers wise it's not looking good man e beats has played all over New York now there's now the pianos this is this is what they want you to do this is how to get us to go against each other it's all under the same culture umbrella it's afro music ref I'm a piano I'm a piano explain that what do you mean by that bro yeah R&B what do you mean by that ultimately it's all from under the same origin and creativity of the same person from the same colors is all our thing n but let's be honest Jimmy hip-hop hasn't involved bro when I was listening to Eminem what do you want mean what do you mean hip-hop hasn't evolved you guys are still rapping about the same stuff it don't you you missing the point of what hip-hop is yeah hip-hop has evolved to a point that you can be the music genres that you're told them about can be noticed you think that if there was a hip hop that I'm a piano would be noticed or afro Beach would be noticed think about that and not to take nothing away from y because you always have culture and yes that music might be big within the continent of Africa yeah right but to cross over to American Fame and commercialism you don't think that the hip-hop culture played a big part in that that's that that's a different argument now you want to have a different argument I'm telling you the semantics of where we going with this you dig like you talking about uh the the hip hop music is damn percentage that's how they want us to think when it's really not cuz we all uplifting each other you heard you think that the country music that's going on in the black people winning is not because of the hip-hop culture no no no I think no one is disputing that however so then when you say hip-hop numbers are down and damn for who no I'm talking about I know what you're talking about but damn for who tell me who it's down for because I'm still making the money I make yeah I do believe there's still a lot of artist that's making a shitload of money that they make I don't think it went down for them yeah you know what I mean but I understand what you're talking about they say the numbers and then rock and roll genre might be up like I don't really you heard like that's I'm into this business you heard and it's always up for us you heard cuz this is a business we make money out of nothing it's never a downside to this okay and and that's why I'm saying I think we're having two different conversations here cuz the conversation I'm having is I'm having I'm having right is that in as much as he's saying yeah the numbers are down because they orchestrated and whatever I get that right but also that's why I asked do you think Hip-hop has evolved cuz I grew up on hip-hop right and the same things um quote unquote you guys were rapping about in the '90s how can hipop how can hip hop evolved in the same thing that Africa been Africa been going on since the '90s aren't y going still going through the same thing we are huh we are so how could the music evolve when the music ref the time ah okay get you real stories what you want us to rap about [ __ ] that that we don't have ah we talk about [ __ ] we dream about all the time that's the good The Good Life the colorin the Ros we talk about but the truth is how the music going to change when our position hasn't changed when we still going through the same [ __ ] we've been going through okay and y'all being from Africa should know that more than we know that yeah that's facts that's fact go about that own Cod yeah yeah yeah yeah you know are bro that's a valid fact but how do you feel man like you've come from an era where you guys when what you you said in your raps I mean evolved as far as dition as far as what we rap about cuz we still stuck in the same place but as a business it has evolved to one of big time yeah yeah biggest big time money making machines you can attach yourself to this made some of the richest individuals whether you're the rapper the lawyer the executive like that's true you know what I mean the supply chain but then I think that's why you know when you get the likes of a wz coming out and Kendrick Lamar they stand out like a sore thumb because like they are rapping about but that's what music is about to stand out for those who that want to look like everybody they don't get nowhere why you think Dip set was so successful sucessful yeah because we stood out on purpose we don't want to look like or H or sound like no one else m we want yall to above all see us when we walk in the building and hear us when we get on that [ __ ] mic you heard why would you guys the diplomats I never like where did that come from the diplomats the name the diplomats yeah we diplomats oh ah okay that sounded cool no we diplomats we are Harlem diplomats and we take it as that you heard we go to the Embassy when we land in countries you heard all right okay okay okay I I sort of get that bro so in the business and how you still making money right now like from music just like how is it royalties damn you asking a lot of questions bro no I want to know bro I'm so I've got so many questions I want to ask you bro I'll tell you this music is supposed to be used so you can make as much ancillary dollars as you can because the music ain't promised everybody 15 minutes of fame ranges from a small 15 minutes of fame to a run like we having within that minute the 15 minutes the fame you better do a lot of other things to secure your bag because music is not going to be thing you be able to get paid off forever unless you're the DRS and the J that's not even 1% that's you know what I mean so you think about that so you better have some hustle you better learn how to you better have some business sense you better put your credit in order you better do a few things to secure you if you are artist [ __ ] leverage powerful penda yeah man how do you feel man when these kids these days wrap up about you know trying to act tough and rap about stuff they never done like you guys red about stuff you lived I mean I do believe a lot of these kids are going through a lot of [ __ ] that we went through and then a lot of the kids are talking about [ __ ] that they see but most of the kids are all growing up in the same community that all of that [ __ ] is going on so who tells them they don't have the right to talk about [ __ ] that they're not doing when that's still [ __ ] that they're seeing oh sure Ah that's powerful but the problem I have a problem when they rapping like they did it but they just R from somebody else's Vantage Point understand that but most of these artists that you've seen in the game some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I pretty firm in his in in his music that I'm a believer that he did some of that [ __ ] he can talk about just me I don't know you possibilities are possibilities but some things just seem correct you know mean I can't tell you for sure cuz it is music you know what I mean but some things seem correct [ __ ] man bro you got to come out to man you got to you know we haven't had a proper uh hip-hop concert in sa like since 50 N since you are come on back to the city does concerts man ah those are for old people empd the bigest artist in South Africa right now Hip-Hop Hip-Hop uh there's a guy called nastyc but nesty came here he doesn't know know you f poopa who's that nah F poopa Nigerian West African artist massive he used to pop not now for real still massive bigger than like ber boyo still it's different type of music oh stadiums is 50 60,000 people like what is this following this gu what's his name f poop F poop I don't know him bro he's from Nigeria yeah yeah yeah yeah Nigerian Prett pretty big yeah humongous bro how big was was 50 Cent bro like during his Reign man like how big was 50 Cent [ __ ] retardedly big it wasn't nothing bigger than him was Drake before Drake was dring he was oh [ __ ] he did it like it was like 50 was on a run that he never even touched the club bro like [ __ ] never seen him in the club he only did Arenas I never knew too many artist that just did that you dig like the [ __ ] was super massive every [ __ ] Rec he came out with was was going platinum and I'm just telling you the facts you heard and I always got to speak factual no matter how I feel about a person the [ __ ] was on top Super on top it was no way to knock him off his d i remember Jay-Z dropped the diss track on you did you guys resolve that beef I think you were not happy with him as the president of De jam oh man um we never really had a beef um we had some feuds back and forth through the situations that were going on over other people um and me being who I am I had to hold my ground um but to know that he actually talked about me in multiple of his records mean that I was pretty big in his eyes you dig true true cuz I didn't hear him talk about too many people in his career and if he did talk you talk about you on the record that meant something you know what I mean and I was then so for me that I I I took that like what it was like you dig like yeah J doesn't respond to take the time out to say my name you heard if I'm if I'm not that big of a deal to you you would never ever a am I am I right talk about a person you heard true it's it's a form of respect and ackowledge 100% am I right in saying a lot of [ __ ] are scared of Jay-Z bro cuz we interviewed Dam Ian I don't I don't know I'm not a lot of [ __ ] you heard I'm a man so I couldn't I I couldn't tell you that you heard I ain't scared to nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that that that dentist yeah the dentist got me there you heard you can walk in you could walk we about to fight right now you a dentist walk in you got it you got it like you got it bow down you got it I don't want no smoke let me get out of here M fact word Jimmy before you go man uh what beefs did you have so you had something beef with Jay-Z right no man I just told you we had some feuds stemming from that's beef bro stemming from other things that going on um my problem like it was all part of Us coming up in the game and things were happening we were signing a Rockefeller cam was sign a Rockefeller actually then we got opportunity to Diplomat records um the split between uh Jay and Dame came um artist took sides some took the J side some took the the Dame side which side were you on we was on the Dame side OB Dash yeah Dame Dash that's do you think Dame Dash is misunderstood bro huh you think Dame Dash is misunderstood um too smart for his own good I get that yeah if you had the opportunity again you sometimes being the smartest person in the room could be held against you especially when you want everybody to know that you're the smartest person in the room yeah yeah yeah and I get given a second chance would you still side with Dam never you wouldn't never whoa I never signed a d at all that was no no no like sided with him took his side oh give a second chance I wouldn't have sided with none of them I would we would haveed our [ __ ] business but you learned that with age yeah you heard we had no business butting into that because it wasn't a street beef and this wasn't some [ __ ] that had to do with us ultimately we were holding our [ __ ] down and [ __ ] like that but business-wise if we would if we knew what we knew now we would let them get into that they self y'all can handle that because we got records to put out and music to make and we got our own record label to run you dig and this my hinder what we got going on by us taking sides and that's why I tell people now even when people seeing all the Diplomat [ __ ] like y bro don't don't get in to taking sides with me and my bro because you never know how that might end up and if it end up to a point where we do figure out our situation then I'm looking at you funny now me and you got forever you heard you dig and there are plenty of people that did that and plenty people that didn't and plenty people that showed the same amount of love that he showed to me that it showed to cam when we were going through our imaginary situations and [ __ ] like that cuz it's all imaginary when you know you can figure figure it out now it's a saying that like don't just be in people's business when especially when they've beef and take sides cuz and I I had to learn that a lot I had took me a long time to learn that because of how we come up in the Cod that they supposedly treat us in teach us in the street and [ __ ] like that but sometimes that's not the smallest thing that we can do and then uh push a t did you ever beef with him nah that was some [ __ ] that we was on record um he did some [ __ ] I did some [ __ ] you dig that was it I never followed that I didn't even know did you know there's a pusher T me I ain't got no just know I don't know I know you're from I know you're from Africa and [ __ ] like that but people don't play with me yeah for real and I don't I don't play with people this ain't no playground you heard this is the street it's two ways don't get caught up in a yellow line it's going to be hard to cross bro yeah you heard no I don't trust me I'm from Africa but I saw what happened at the airport so that [ __ ] escalated yeah [ __ ] that was self-defense man God yo bro it looked like that guy was just messing with you bro I wish that could have never happened cuz I was trying to avoid that by all cause but [ __ ] happened sometime man you dig and definitely not not going to allow anybody do anything to me at all bro when I saw that video right like I don't know I just met you today right but I saw when you lifted that guy from the escalator threw him down he literally just went on survival mode bro like it's like there was a button that you switched on and you just like I don't [ __ ] care but yeah yeah no I mean no that's a button that I choose not to push you heard yeah exactly like you can go there quickly I choose to show restraint for a lot of reasons in my life and sometimes it's hard to you dig but where I'm at in life right now I choose positivity or all the other things that come out my way because I know how it is to be negative I was once that negative person that was very aggressive and ready to do something to to you over the minimal alistic of things and [ __ ] like that so I'm blessed to be here to try to be able to show restraint and so so the guy so the guy at the airport you guys on the same plane yeah we on the same plane so you don't have a private jet no I don't have a private jet I'm not a rich man come on Jimmy you made so much money over the years but anyway so you're in the plane what's he what's this guy saying to you like um I don't know man just [ __ ] happens I know just the started from the plane just know that what you see happen on so it starts on the plane you restrain yourself you're like all right cool my dog say whatever you want to say yeah when he gets to the airport I mean the escalator that's when I think he starts hitting you or something right yeah something like that he tried to do something like that and that's what we see man but like I said this is not something that I want to glorify it's not you think he knows who you are um if if he didn't he know now no I'm I'm sorry see sorry cuz some people just provoke I believe he was he was trolling a little bit and things like that which is cool you I mean I'm if if you in New York not time 10 you do know who I am so you know I believe it was a bit of that but God bless man hopefully that they all right hopefully the old man um cool you dig like are you spiritual cuz you mentioned God a lot man yeah I'm very spiritual very spiritual very spiritual I've been my whole family is spiritual and what does that mean in an American sense cuz um us as African for me it means a lot of different things um I was told what the church was as a young age as they drag you to church every Sunday your grandmother your moms and your family and things like that and you really don't understand what that is from that young but as you get older and you go through certain things and you make it through certain things you understand that there is a God and everybody has a relationship with their God different and sometimes going to church doesn't mean that you love your God any less or he loves you any less you dig and you say spiritual I'm very spiritual I say my prayers as much as I can sometime two three four times in a day you dig man doesn't take away from what I do and who I am because I'm still in the line for everything else everybody is in but I know every day that I'm able to wake up and every day I'm able to make a dollar and every day I'm able to keep living the life that I am I should be thankful you heard cuz that's not just me that's a higher vibration that's definitely a God you dig and I'm well aware that I've escaped many things in life that Lord knows I should not be here but then again I should be here cuz he put here for a reason he gives his toughest battles to his strongest people what the Bible say you heard and I've made it through some very tough battles which are minimal to some of the people that I had next to me in their battles you know what I mean so it's like we all got to figure it out Jim Jones thank you so much man and thanks to God for bringing you here man definitely I appreciate for making time for us bro thank you man we appreciate you tired when you got you I appreciate the fact that you could even make it man got any last question yeah man bro you said you've gone through some tough battles and you mentioned how you lost your dad at like 26 but also that you you pretty much raised yourself from the age of 15 you know from that relationship or lack of it like has it affected how you father your children 100% this made me the best father I could be but me my relationship with my father was always a great one even though he wasn't there because every day he wasn't I love them even more I wasn't one of them kids that was bitter you dig I understand that everybody went through something and at that age what he was going through there was a lot of drug addiction and I knew that from a very young age I understood what drugs was and how they were tearing up my family I never held that against my father and I was just blessed able to get back with him before he passed away so he could see that his son was making something out of himself at that time I was already signed to her uh we think we just got the Rockefeller deal so it was a very big deal for me to be able to get back with my father to show him that me somebody that you should be proud of and I know him looking down right now got be like damn I did that so you know and that's how I feel but then in turn TR here my son I don't you know I mean like I just you know mean I pride myself on making sure that I I turned my son into somebody that was way better than I could ever be you oh man yeah that's my guy shout out to you man is your son still wearing Crocs to you br he's a Croc guy you heard yeah Crocs for Life bro Crocs for Life jumping out the beam with a fresh paer Crocs on I don't want to stand him Jimmy before you go your top five rappers all time my top five rappers of all you got to give us your top five bro yeah Tupac definitely Jay-Z Drake um Drake he not like us by default of course um rock cam no Eminem No No whoa not even big you from NY and not to take nothing away from him he's extremely nice it's retardedly nice when it comes to rap but I listen to artists that kind of you know I mean do something for the life that I live and kind of what I've been through and most of these artist or artist that I'm talking about people that you know what I mean like [ __ ] better stop hating on my boy Drake all of a sudden all this Drake land I get it I get it you ain't like us let's not do that let's not forget the 15 years he been spanking [ __ ] around this [ __ ] all all all over this [ __ ] all the alley he been giving most of these artists that are now seeming to be turning on them let's you know let's not some of them gave him their best hits let's not forget the big picture here and [ __ ] like but what the hip-hop culture and this game is built on competition so I yeah but what is he with it you heard you better put your best foot forward but what has Drake given back to the culture oh that you so love here we go um what is he giving back to the culture I seen him take a lot of people on tour and turn them even richer than they already was I I seen him give a lot of people hits that they would have never had if he wouldn't have got on a record things for the culture that wouldn't have happened in turn records that we would have never knew about him to record that the culture love and things like that I mean he's not from here Canada from the hood I don't believe he owes America too much but the monster that give back to where he's from maybe we should ask about what has he done in Canada giving back to his community as opposed to what he giving back to the culture of the United States when this is not where he's from and I think that's the Divide right there now if we talk about what he's done in Canada and if it's not up to par then maybe we can talk about oh you dig but that's I think that's for the people of Canada you dig like yeah cuz but it's the people of America in the hood who made him of course you heard about but that he didn't grw up in America he didn't grew up here you heard so if you was an artist from Africa yeah like boy yeah do you think bnab boy has responsibility what do Niger of United stes n I'm taking it back home bro super duper big yes but that's what people then will call a culture vulture cuz you come into a space you know do what the people of that space do benefit from them is is is you understand what we doing like it's bro it's not because he's not take so he's not taking benab boy is Nigerian it's a Nigerian culture that is now popular in America so Drake took an American culture and enriched himself but what he's saying is that he doesn't owe anything to America cuz he's not from yet right okay right yeah I mean [ __ ] he's got no obligation Fair argument he got no obligation Fair argument yeah like he lived if he lived like I don't I don't that's how I see it you heard like that's how I see it you dig but all these [ __ ] we talking about are filthy filthy filthy rich off the opinions of men you heard what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never but what I'm just trying to tell you is how this game is played yeah you heard yeah geez man the more we talk the more they get paid the loser still gets paid too if there is a loser I don't think there's a loser when they all getting Millions off of this [ __ ] I don't think I mean like and I understand end all be all in the whole circle of it but I'm I've been in this [ __ ] for so long I'm miss you can see the politics of really get you to understand of what's really going on and [ __ ] like that this [ __ ] don't pay me a dollar to talk about it yeah hey man how tight you with Joe Bon he calls us those African guys with numbers oh yeah yeah yeah Jo this my guy buts what's up man he cool yeah he's an instigator definely know how to get under people's skin yeah I've known Joan for so long [ __ ] like that um I'm proud of him put himself in his position a whole new Lane to make a shitload of money um where it stem from the culture this what I'm talking about all the ancillary things that you need to get going on if are a artist of some type of success you got to use that to get where you want look at Joe used his startom and rap no matter what it was to able to finesse a whole new Lane of podcasting that true he's pretty big in damn near one of the forefathers of it from our culture right y'all started before him or after him we started after him but now we have more numbers than him hey doesn't matter no numbers do matter I mean no J and get num I'm cool with that but you won't be never be the considered the forefather of this whole no no no no no no no you dig 100% yeah it's Jo Joan numbers is cool I'm cool with that you get paid and I know what's a race you might be number one you heard yeah yeah but you still never be the forefather always going to have that under him like I've created this Lane for your how I feel about Ling hip hop yeah of course I got that under my belt that's mine y can never say that was yours at all yeah okay how much money you made off of it and [ __ ] like that at the end of the day you it's mine you heard Still My still mine so we always ask anybody any guest that we get on the show in closing what do you want to be remembered as man when it's all said and done I want I want to be remembered I want I want them to know that I gave more than I took because I was able to take a lot in my time amen just like that sh hey man I wish you put me on love and& hip-hop bro they got the African love of Hip Hop they got Jamaican love of Hip Hop they got they got any type of Love of Hip Hop we need the South African love of Hip Hop thanks Jim man shout out thank you bro I appreciate you man thank you we appreciate podcast and chill we out of here man boom peace welcome to Black excellenc do not fear for if you do just sip on some Grand and if you still do ask ourselves what would M [Music] do when they ask you do not fear for if you do just say an TV this is the the medicine of censorship this is the pill which one is that one podcast and chill	he show me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah understand everybody going at my guy I understand the hate man the hate is so phenomenal it's just how this game go man this game is so tricky man these [ __ ] just like females in this game we ain't going to get into that man there's a lot of uh but wait wait wait so so with Drake like are you are you seeing him perform like try songs or like you just heard of the guy just a conversation Allan called me about signing a kid let me hear some of his music um and I was like the kid know how to rap but I don't know what to do with him his image is crazy and him couple years later heard him on a Wheezy mixtape going crazy I was like wow this kid is about to go wham inside of this business and he sure did and you're know trying to call Weezy like yo man I gotta get that kid or something n he was already signed a young money and jcole did you miss on jcole as well I could have signed J Cole bro jcole was in the studio with me every day and at that point jcole I he's he remind me of a knockoff Drake and not to say it like that but that's who he sounded like he came	2	6	8	he show me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah understand everybody going at my guy I understand the hate man the hate is so phenomenal it's just how this game go man this game is so tricky man these [ __ ] just like females in this game we ain't going to get into that man there's a lot of uh but wait wait wait so so with Drake like are you are you seeing him perform like try songs or like you just heard of the guy just a conversation	Allan called me about signing a kid let me hear some of his music um and I was like the kid know how to rap but I don't know what to do with him	4,6,5	2,3,4	4	6	5	2	3	4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr730VmL-lk	4,054	rr730VmL-lk	2024-06-27 00:00:00	like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano no well Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he showed me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah just understand everybody going there my guy I understand the hate exactly what you're saying yeah bro what's his name I don't it's fine you remember those some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I ain't scared of nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that the dentist yeah dentist got me there what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never [Music] [Music] yo Jimmy you do not look like you want to be here bro like someone forced you to be it's like you have to do that par they're the biggest podcast in Africa you have to be there I never look like I want to be nowhere man you got to part of me but congratulations to yall having the biggest podcast in Africa that that that's very big Africa being one of the biggest continents in the world a lot of people over there shut up man why you so tired bro crazy weekend I've been working all weekend shows different states traveling Planes Trains automobiles you know how I be a little bit too much partying yeah road kill it's tough but what's up how y'all feeling I'm good bro I literally saw um I saw your video uh yesterday for your new single the one you shot in Miami two turn temp yeah yeah how you feel about it bro that [ __ ] is lit man looks like our Vibe bro cuz we've been to Miami myself and and my partner but we never like experienced the Miami night life we were playing in Florida yeah we're DJing in Florida but two South Africans like the diaspora then West Palm Beach as well yeah DJ also yeah like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano what it's a genre it's called a piano no no cuz I'm a piano even you heard like you saw he did the whole Keys thing it has nothing to do with the piano that's where it started but has nothing to do with it these days when when I met charlot man he said the exact same thing he's like oh so you're a podcaster I'm like yeah and then you DJs I'm like no I play I'm a Pian like you're a Pianist man you one talented [ __ ] n it's a genre of music man what kind of genre is that like it's like slowed down house music with a lot of s that African influence that's the only way I can describe it so it's a it's a mix of a marriage house yeah a marriage of house music which originated here at Chicago and stuff and then we slowed it down created a sub genre called guo where guys were sort of rapping but very minimalist raps called guo then the kids were born like in the 2000s late '90s then created a whole meshup of those two genres and it's called Piano cuz a a lot of Americans think it's um afro beats it's not afro beats yeah a lot of the hence I avoided saying afro beats cuz AFR beats is from Nigeria and amap piano is far from afro beat afro beat borrows from am piano now where is amap piano originated from South Africa from the hoods from the Cassis yeah but when I when I was looking at your video bro uh the only thing in my mind was like bro what's a night like out with Jim Jones CU that [ __ ] look lit there [ __ ] everywhere bro um please please describe a night out in Miami with Jim so let's say we going to Miami right now I mean some nice are better than others but been doing it so long it's kind of like the the bare minimum for us to do in Miami just having fun but it still work at the same time like every every I'm I'm not just going out partying for no reason ni like that was we knew what we was kind of getting into we wanted to film a video so we knew we was going to ramp it up a bit take it to the to the highest form going crazy as we could but that actually happened to fall on a big weekend um and one of my dudes was celebrating so everything kind of happened for a reason but yeah Miami could take you for take you for a few a few trips man like okay so so so me and you we get in the car right I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm in Miami I hate you cuz you got a house there you stay there right yeah I got I got I got cribs there so I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm by the strip you know that Miami strip right yeah yeah yeah I mean see that's the thing about Miami when you come to visit Miami that's where people are know at like the strip and things like that I guess stand by Collins and ocean driveing all that people that live there don't really do the strip like that like you just you dig people congregate usually at night time and all the spots that usually go on down there um okay so we got security obviously you got to roll around with security right um yeah I mean that' be the safest thing for me to do so we get out the cut with security when you get to the bouncers are they letting us in cuz it's Jim Jones or are they checking our IDs cuz they've been checking our IDs just to buy beer here bro Che ID everywhere yeah everywhere yeah no I I don't think I produced my ID in since I was a teenager at clubs but yeah you won't need your ID when you with me so we walking in right yeah we going to get in oh do we have a section do we they going to give us a section VIP yeah they going to give us a section we going to get some bottles and let the night ensue got this thing called Power Hour you go to the club maybe like 2:45 to 3:45 in and out no sweat so what's the what's the purpose of that exercise the Power Hour yeah like why would you be in the cloud for an hour why would I be in a club for 4 hours it's Fu I mean I've been part I've been partying since I've been 14 I've been making money to party since I've been 18 I'm kind of burnt out so at this point I try to wait till the club is at the most popping or lest moment which is usually that hour right there and I get to enjoy everything that happened tonight and leave out of there and not be all burnt out what what does your wife say bro cuz you're married man you're surrounded by all these girls like you know I mean I'm going to worry about the women yeah is minimal to the money worry about the money more than anything so so a woman doesn't like give you grief when you come home I yeah you get you get grief all the time if you in a relationship no matter what you do if you had a job on Wall Street you get home you're going to get grief no around it you heard yeah there's women everywhere unless you work in the LGBT Club then you know I mean even there you still going to go home and get like it's no way around it you're going to get you know I mean like yeah so you've never had like been home and you had to explain like yo no man I was just doing music video it's just work like I don't know that good you going to explain yourself in every relationship and things like that I got a good woman at home who understands a job I have and things like that so for the most part but for the most part I'm a very responsible respectable person when when I'm in the streets and when I do have to interact with females and things like that yeah anyway H ladies and gentlemen welcome to another special edition of podcasting chill so CU yeah I am here we're chilling with the [ __ ] Legend Kings of Harlem please make some noise for Jim Jones Jim I gotta say bro I gotta say bro I'm going to be honest with you when I find that your name was GMO geloo gelo I'm like I'm like Jim Jones losing some G points here man what the [ __ ] is that I'm Puerto Rican and a rubian my pops is Puerto Rican the word gelo means William in English is a Spanish Spanish name cuz you know what I was thinking I was thinking that guy who does the show late night you know the short guy who does like the interviews with um this late night comedian man what are the late night shows oh man not uh bad with these oh gosh the late night guy bro uhri or something not Corin O'Brien no not Trevor Noah the other American guy man like uh old new no he's like jimm Kimel Jimmy Kimel jimy he's got that he's got that short guy his name is julo oh I don't I don't I don't got got me messed up I don't even really watch TV like that bro okay I'll be out chasing the money I ain't even got time to do that and if and if I do got some time I'm trying to get a little bit of rest or I'm thinking about money [ __ ] is crucial out here right now you better get to your dollar a lot of [ __ ] about to happen and if you ain't got no coins boy you going to be [ __ ] up you ever been to uh Puerto Rico yeah I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times yeah but business not for the Heritage part of it so like you don't know where like your your your parents were at Familiar of the place where my father's from but I never really got to do the whole go to give with my family understand the roots understand you know I mean like I didn't get to get to that part of it but I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times you find like that's important like to know you it's definitely important I had this um I did an interview not too long ago about um how important the roots are and get to know where my family from know I mean so we'll start to do that pretty soon so so so your dad you know you know your dad right yeah he's passed away oh okay God bless rest in peace what happened to him he passed away yeah like was it um medical thing or yeah natural causes oh damn like when you young or um maybe when I was uh 23 24 oh damn bro SED to hear that man maybe 26 right before my son passed right before my God bless right before my son Bor bro but you like 47 right now I look good for 47y old man no homo you know what I mean thank you very much like what was what's keeping you looking so good is it the yoga yeah a lot of yoga a lot of Pilates I stay in shape um I'm very uh very big on Fitness um work out like five six times a week um it's one of the best ways to stay young and have better chances of living a long life is that why you do it or maybe there's other purpose like you know a lot of people are in gym for their mental health I mean it's very it's very it's very therapeutic I will say that but my main goal is to look good of course but to give me better chances of living forever bro so how you got into rap um I don't know correct me if I'm wrong right but you used to skip church and go to the train station to to rap like no I never skipped Church to go on the train station and rap I skipped Church to go to the train station and go play video games and run the streets and do everything a bad little kid did from the streets of hollow when we was like S8 and n and things like that I don't know if you know about anything about the subway system in New York but that's the pathway system that get you to all five burrows and we definitely was on the subway which maybe we shouldn't have been but we was a little uh loose um for me rapping actually rapping didn't start later on in life to actually uh C and um they I got a deal and things like that and that was the first time me myself really thought about actually raing cuz I'll be honest with you like um dipet I don't really know much about dipet however I know about you guys individually like Cameron old boy like one of my favorite songs uh jul sna had hear that that was Cameron and Jules and jwes he both was on he both old boy and heon yeah why don't you jump on those tracks man those tracks are massive they was already done I was there for the making of both of them incredible tracks yeah and then how did dipit start start like how did you guys start the whole movement um organically kiss him Harem gr up together um talented kids Cam and Mason BL sh was they already was doing music um Everybody gradu graduated high school I didn't get to go to college they went to college they got kicked out they got kicked out they come moved in with me from that that was a uh foundation for them to D into the music you've been in the game for like 20 30 odd years right been in the game for since 1997 how would you describe the different eras of like um hip-hop right especially now cuz um obviously we all know about the Kendrick Lamar song they're not like us but I didn't know how big it was until I landed in in in America and it's like it's like a movement the video yeah it's like huge it's massive bro yeah it's a big record Kendrick did that shout out to Kendrick shout out to my boy Drake but what do you think about like the evolution of hip-hop in all the different areas you've been a part of what do you mean what do I think about it it's a great thing to be a part of something that um you could only dream of everybody doesn't get a chance to be in this game um I've been fortunate enough to be here for so many genres and errors and seen so many people come and go I've watched the smallest artist to the biggest artist who you thow will be here forever and going um I got stories for days I can tell you about um how I feel about it I feel great I feel blessed you know what I mean I feel lucky this [ __ ] don't it's not promised and for me to still be here is definitely a blessing so in the 90s what was the vibe like man like like what in the 90s as far as what in hip-hop yeah it was it was different um 90s was a great era um one of my favorite errors um that was the era we first first came outside um started to get out deal uh very aggressive era uh no social media um cell phones were just being born um everything that you seen you was something that you could grab on to um artists had to go to the towns we couldn't just get on your phone and music you had to go get you couldn't just have access to it so it was a it was it it was a hunt um you had to touch the Tails kiss babies do radio everything like it was just a different ER but who was around like during that time when you who was around like Tupac was did you like meet Tupac Tupac I didn't get to meet Tupac um Tupac passed away what 95 was that yeah right in big in '97 um no I got to see Tupac do a few times in Harlem um that was dope but um not Tupac passed away before we got to get in the record game but I've seen a lot of a lot of artists in my time from a young age to old age we were partying in clubs as teenagers before we even got a record deal and things like that like we were in clubs since high school and [ __ ] like that so any interactions with Big L he was from Harlem right yeah shouts to Big Al Big Al was definitely from Harlem um 139th NFL Big L um I was one of the Cam's uh close friends um actually put cam on a dope record that started to give uh Cam and bloodshed and and her mcgree her was already popping too but guy gave them some notice when it came to R so when you come out like who's who's popping at that time is it git is it mop D it's way before G when we came out I was like Eminem just dropped oh [ __ ] this is Slim Shady not M like Slim Shady I I remember that that was like cam had dropped and Eminem had dropped DMX had dropped Nori had dropped um Big Pun had dropped lud Chris Luda had just started coming out um Nelly Nelly down down baby yeah shouts to coola love um yeah that type of error shouts to shouts to Fat Joe shouts to Buster they was already in it uh Nas was already in it Jay start going crazy that's when he just started taking over with the 1 million 2 million 3 million 4 um yeah very competitive very edgy um lot of the big dogs um had real roots in the streets um especially in the streets of New York so that put that put a real Mystique on everything when it came to the music um all the events with topnotch um it just was a different feel man it was a heavy heavy dope boy era um this was before the drug dealers wanted to be Rappers that's when the rappers wanted to be drug dealers you know what I mean and and that Arrow was was a very dope high impact trenel and Russian it was a was a great error bro I saw an interview you did correct me if I'm wrong I might be paraphrasing but you mentioned a place called the tunnel or something where everybody would be and you guys were [ __ ] [ __ ] in the bathrooms please please describe that manest cuz a place like that couldn't exist right now bro with all this woke [ __ ] I mean yeah and the cancel cult I would say it was probably the greatest Club The Hip hopers have seen and it was during the 90s era it was the Golden Era um in New York they got you had stories about like Studio 54 in that era when everybody used all the biggest of big used to go to Studio 54 well the tunnel was what Studio 54 was to that era to our era and it didn't make so many people and nationalities and genres and just everybody was like a big pumbo all for the sake of the culture you had some of the flyest models to some of the biggest drug dealers biggest gang bangers I mean every former elicit street life you could think of was in the spot along with the biggest artists and rappers and actors and models that you could find into all athletes um it would definitely like that um and was this like per invite or just like anybody could Rock up there nah you couldn't just rock up there for this is '90s entry was like $100 first of all $100 for a club that was the first time we ever heard of it and that was a lot of money back then especially we probably started in '94 going there teenager so $100 was sto a lot of money in New York at the time sneakers wasn't even costing $100 um to get in the club you definitely had to be connected to know somebody or you had to wait on a long line that usually was a block long um they had like an Express line you could pay $100 to get on Express line that'll get you to the door quicker and then you pay your entry fee um streets was blocked off you was a big dog you was able to bring your cars down there I was able to bring like four five of them if I wanted to um yeah the club was just it was different man pull up to the door security they taking people's shoes off they searching your jacket twisting people inside out like they about to go on the Rikers Island I got to I gave security High files I never took my shoes off and not since high school I when we used go in high school we used to get our shoes taken off and things like that make you feel like you going to the cental bookings and [ __ ] like that so what gave you that clout that allowed you to bring four cars in when nobody or you had to be a big dog to bring four cars in when you could just give them a high five instead of removing your shoes and you're young by then like what gives you that CL I was a big dog since a small pup bro J yeah man what gave you those you know credentials at such a young age to suppos all these people cuz Dr Tre was there yeah you putting in four cars not removing shoes I was a good Lord Biden citizen everybody love Jim Jones even even the girls like would you just rock up they say let's go to the bathroom that's it yeah now that well yeah there was a lot of that going on they had a uh the layout was different first of all the club was a block long a whole city block um wow there was like three other four other clubs within the club or spots that look like clubs um the main floor was humongously big the DJ was like a a lifeguard Tower in the middle of the club um you go upstairs they had a VR big V PE upstairs and then go through a door it open up to the bathroom the bathroom was like a unisex Club [ __ ] had a big ass bar in the middle of the bathroom uh bunch of stalls lined up um that [ __ ] was like a hotel inside Lions cocaine everything yeah they was going down a lot of sex was going down there a lot of a lot of drugs was going down in there um yeah the tunnel was definitely uh a landmark to New York City when it comes to the clubs I I definitely um I always think about that club um it did a lot for me in my life um it gave me a lot of imagination when it came to to the culture and the things I was seeing from a young age as to where I want to be and the direction I want to go in yeah we was going there since high school so when you seeing people like Mike Tyson and all these people coming in big cheer on and just having their way as a kid go out got to go to school the next morning you you in school thinking about that [ __ ] like w man this school [ __ ] [ __ ] this school [ __ ] I need some money and I need to go to the tunnel that's all I want to [ __ ] do that's wild man now can you imagine because we in sa right we're looking at all the videos that you guys are pulling out there like we're looking at this lifestyle and then you F Track to 2024 right M and the P didy thing breaks out right I mean i' rather not even to get into that yeah just don't I rather the do I don't you know I mean like it's not it's not my business oh I mean like this you heard God bless it's too much n yeah and it's not me to have an opinion on certain things cuz I ain't perfect I've been through my own [ __ ] in life and I see a lot of people that have even this doing too much just know that I ain't perfect so I choose not to talk on certain [ __ ] that you know what I mean a lot of other people people been talking about I let them keep doing the talk and I got other [ __ ] to work on I'm trying to work on me being a better person yeah I respect I respect that man but were ever part of any gang or like you sounding like the F never hey we don't the F in South Africa man only PS I'm just playing with you yeah I've been affiliated with the bloods in New York City um ENT Tre um yeah so crazy have you ever been to sa like have you ever been to Africa or um I've been to Africa where did you go uh gaban gille damn G to perform there um I went to perform there but uh got some great friends there they actually had ran the country at the time this is before the big yeah yeah overtaking and stuff like that but I had a ball out there I got to go to an island called Pony um that was a dope experience as they took me to the jungles I got to see some of the indigenous people um it was like a a real um life Awakening like and I got to see how also the rich people live out there also like I got to see both sides like that you know what I mean it was it was a great experience I out there for like a week um I haven't been back since but yeah it was dope you never been to South Africa never been to South Africa bro so the reason why I asked that is because like yo bro like American culture has infiltrated South Africa like you can't believe like you know we got people worshiping you guys you know Jim Jones rappers and everything you so we've got rappers who rap just like you and youd say they're like Bloods and Crips but they've never they've never left sa you know cuz that's how influential uh the culture is right but from you when you see or hear that like what do you guys think like do you think is like some [ __ ] like or like leave don't don't follow the gang life you know what I mean oh as far as that is concerned um there's two sides to that this what you do as a gang member that turns it into something that becomes a crime or whatever that end but the Brotherhood part of it is what the most of us joined up for when we coming up in the hood and need that Brotherhood lean on somebody is that type of camaraderie that pretty much stood for and there's a lot of other great attributes that comes with affiliation or you becoming a part of a gang um it gets twisted up because we all come up in these urban communities and our back is against the wall we don't have no opportunities um it's very dormant uh we on top of each other so naturally testosterone testosterone wins in a lot of these situations where these kids find s in bad situations and for that I would tell people to kind of stay away from this type of life um I don't want to oppose my will we all going to experience what we going to experience but I can't tell you the consequences to this type of Lifestyle could be very dear you heard ethal a lot of people don't get to make it where I made it and Escape that lifestyle that could have put me away or could have put me in the dirt I mean so here as a Living testament to tell you that these consequences are terrible the odds on you making it out of that life in a positive manner are very slim I mean but if you are in that life and you taking it as a Brotherhood and try to uplift your brothers I know there's a lot of people around you that are doing a lot of [ __ ] that that that that that's very crazy you know what I mean if you're a part of that and you got the positive minder then you try to uplift your brother and instill some positivity within them because it's very cold out here so I've always been curious bro like so when that when you you you start getting immersed you know or Affiliated in the gang life how does that affect the conversation at home with your parents like your mom your dad and just the domestic you know Dynamics I a't grow my parents I was a grown man since I was like 15 I made my own money since I was like 16 my grandmother left me in high school man I was raising my Sisters by myself in the projects I hustle every I ever got in my life that's why music saved my life I was so grateful to be able to be next to cam and him getting a deal at such a very young age to be able to still be making money off that [ __ ] right now you were U anr for Warner uh music group yeah I was the director of anr for Warner Music Group um years ago uh shouts to Kevin L shouts to Leo Cohen for giving me the opportunity um great opportunity uh I excelled at it extremely very young with a lot of power but didn't understand what I had at hand um didn't have too many people in my corner that were telling me the things that I should have been doing with that type of position as opposed to some type of weird way be hating you know I mean so that's what happened but as you get older you learn you learn and you move on who did you discover while you were in that position uh I would tell you a story I I know I've helped try s uh they come to tra songs that you know today he's always in he's always in we know why no n but he was a young kid at the time and uh they were actually going to cut him from the label we had a big uh um it's like uh one of them uh some events they be doing not the talent shows the uh well was something like that all the artists had to come perform and then they pretty much didn't know that they was on a Cho and block at the time when I was an executive and and he was one of the artists that they were going to cut and I remember Kevin L specifically ask me yo what we should do with him I'm about to cut him I don't know what to do with him and when I heard him uh singing and I saw him perform I was like this is this is one artist you should keep and did that and now we all tra songs on so many dope ass records is it true you could have signed Drake yeah I had a chance to sign uh I had a chance to do business with Drake um through Allan grum blat um when I was doing business at cotch um it was a different era I didn't understand what Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he show me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah understand everybody going at my guy I understand the hate man the hate is so phenomenal it's just how this game go man this game is so tricky man these [ __ ] just like females in this game we ain't going to get into that man there's a lot of uh but wait wait wait so so with Drake like are you are you seeing him perform like try songs or like you just heard of the guy just a conversation Allan called me about signing a kid let me hear some of his music um and I was like the kid know how to rap but I don't know what to do with him his image is crazy and him couple years later heard him on a Wheezy mixtape going crazy I was like wow this kid is about to go wham inside of this business and he sure did and you're know trying to call Weezy like yo man I gotta get that kid or something n he was already signed a young money and jcole did you miss on jcole as well I could have signed J Cole bro jcole was in the studio with me every day and at that point jcole I he's he remind me of a knockoff Drake and not to say it like that but that's who he sounded like he came to my studio every day rapping to these Drake beats rapping like Drake Cadence like Drake he could rap his ass off yeah you heard yeah but it was already a drake out there he had the Caesar it was different like two lightskinn [ __ ] might not K when raing the same but you never know what you got in front of you man you dig and those are lessons I I've took with me to moving forward when I see artists and and I hate artists I always give them more than just hearing just just I got to I got to I gotta try to capture the whole picture I make sure I just don't you mean so I don't miss nothing else because I've missed a few people and I've helped a few people um gain a lot of success in in my time in this industry whether it been by me having a meeting with them or me having influence on them or you know I mean so you know and there's never like any animosity like Jake Cole or Drake never came up to be like yo you could have signed me look at me now bro I mean me and Drake is cool as [ __ ] um I see J Cole I don't think he I mean I don't think that's no he some [ __ ] he might want to keep to himself not to be like that sh the co he not that type of artist he's not a you I mean yeah you did I look I look at as we can see I want to mention an artist who like I'm really fond of like I think this guy's [ __ ] amazing musically talented everything that he touched like turned to Gold who's that uh kid k bro K Cy yeah yeah did you help him with his career yeah I birth K Cy wow J me how so bro bir them nobody would have know who K Cy was at all if I a jump on this remix record but it wasn't even remix he wasn't even a nobody like I tell a story all the time I had a inter used to work for me said he got some dudes that do videos they would like to do a video for me told them come let me see they work they show me their videos the first video they showed me was of the kid Cy record he's on the top of a roof some simple video the record sound more wavy than the opportunity for them to do a video I'm like well if you'll get me the beat to this record I Remix this record and then y'all can shoot the video to that record wow and that's what they did and then um the radio station ripped the record off of YouTube and start playing it at Hot 97 and K Cy was born bro why do you think especially about kid Cy cuz from him when I listen to music right it wasn't really no no other kid Cy record besides the one that I was on yeah man he's not in they don't play his records where I be at at all not to be funny wow bro and we listen to him like all that day and night you know remember only record I know yeah it's the only record I know unless it's like a pop record that everybody know and I and I'm even not paying attention to it but he don't his records don't get played nowhere that i' be at not like that unless I go into a different farm and that's the type of music they playing in one of these funny clubs that play fist pump music and pop music he's not into like you dig like they don't play his music in the clubs I'll be at maybe in Vegas and [ __ ] like that but that's not like they not pumping this [ __ ] in live they not pumping this [ __ ] in Atlanta they not pumping this [ __ ] down the Stafford room or you know what I mean like they I'm not saying nothing like that but I don't hear it in the strip clubs I don't hear like you know what I mean so but he's a very successful person with some of the greats like Kanye to put him in a position to win and [ __ ] like that and I think he's way more better as an actor than he is a musician and that's just my POS that's just my opinion he did I seen him in the movie uh about the race car [ __ ] where he was F the playe like he got a lot of Charisma and [ __ ] like that on on camera for what I could see and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean bro I mean for you as Jim Jones to to see these kids you're introduced to them by an intern and then to hop onto that song it's something selfless you know to just give these unknown kids an opportunity of sharing a song with you where do you think that selflessness comes from how was that unknown kid I'm still an unknown kid anytime I get an opportunity that's an opportunity I should be able to give to somebody else bro the fact that you could even come to our podcast shout out man yeah man you don't even know us exactly what you're saying yeah know us what's his name I don't it's fine you know remember those kids who who did the video for him anyway you know remember I remember like that kids that got the biggest African podcast I'm definitely going to know like them is my guys right family right there appreciate I really mean that that sincerely and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean I I bump in too many people in my life and been across too many people in my journey to actually remember everybody's name but the face and the cause and I mean BR I want to understand right the first time you came up with the concept For Love and Hip Hop where were you what was happening that um that was something like uh me and Christy she had opportunity to do uh her own reality show um and actually fell through and that kind of she was kind of she wanted to do that I can see she was eager about doing that when it fell through kind you know I mean [ __ ] with her mood and [ __ ] like that so so so so so the initial concept what was it was just Chrissy just showing like what's life the initial concept was about she had her own thing going on about a group of women that was supposed to do a reality show had nothing to do with me yeah that [ __ ] fell through she lost that opportunity to end up not going people have been begging me to do reality TV for past couple years at the time and I and you reality TV gold man I refused to do it yeah and then when that happened I was like all right I got I'll do this for you and we'll make it about you and females that have to that are involved with artist such as myself and show what the relationship side is when you're dealing with a high-profile artist and you know what I mean how so that's how that started bro and that thing became a monster super super monster like it's still big till this day bro 100% so do you have like uh ownership in that we we were link a all that you know at that time when maybe the second season we just in a position where we refuse to compromise our dignity for anyone or any dollar and sometimes it be like that you know what I mean um but ain't no stress off my back T my hat to him you no but but but we got to talk about that because you see like this podcast um it's blackowned right it's just me and a couple of other people that are involved in the podcast right and we're always striving for ownership so a lot of um Brands and investors have come to try to buy the podcast and we say know cuz like we believe in ownership and telling the story the way we want to tell it right so what went wrong in that because as a hustler I believe like that's your also end goal MH um it wasn't something that I was just a lot of different layers and [ __ ] like that and I was too worried about doing other things and we had the opportunity to gain all ownership 50% of the whole TV show and all that but it still wasn't worth GE bro that's insane you just let go like that yeah bro it's your brain child bro there is no Love and& Hip Hop without you bro I still got a brain you heard yeah those are for people that don't have a brain that lack creativity people that steal things from you lack what you don't have remember that yeah whether it's money whether it's creativity whatever it is they lack what you don't have ultimately they steal from you you heard I mean we didn't even know C beef if it wasn't for Love and& Hip Hop right yeah yeah yeah definitely yeah bro you gave birth to so many many people man like VI their careers that's the god in me that's why I'm always going to be good yeah she man so any other shows that you're working on like in the pipeline that you want to do I was telling you I working on um a late night show a late night um a late night variety show live in studio audience hopefully we'll be filming in about 40 to 60 days um beautiful concept I do I do believe people going enjoy the show um like I was saying I can't do um a podcast is too personal for me and [ __ ] like that and me watching these podcasts um dealing with these artists me myself don't have the temperament for it you know what I mean um I [ __ ] I T my hat to y'all to have to deal with artists such as myself cuz you never know what type of mood they going to come in you know what I me some of these artists have a air to them where they feel like they better than most and they would never sit and have tea with the with the maintenance guy you heard me myself me going to maintenance guy going to smoke blunts before I get on stage [Music] I live my life and and and currently uh before we let you go man what do you think about the state of hip-hop cuz like statistically numbers wise it's not looking good man e beats has played all over New York now there's now the pianos this is this is what they want you to do this is how to get us to go against each other it's all under the same culture umbrella it's afro music ref I'm a piano I'm a piano explain that what do you mean by that bro yeah R&B what do you mean by that ultimately it's all from under the same origin and creativity of the same person from the same colors is all our thing n but let's be honest Jimmy hip-hop hasn't involved bro when I was listening to Eminem what do you want mean what do you mean hip-hop hasn't evolved you guys are still rapping about the same stuff it don't you you missing the point of what hip-hop is yeah hip-hop has evolved to a point that you can be the music genres that you're told them about can be noticed you think that if there was a hip hop that I'm a piano would be noticed or afro Beach would be noticed think about that and not to take nothing away from y because you always have culture and yes that music might be big within the continent of Africa yeah right but to cross over to American Fame and commercialism you don't think that the hip-hop culture played a big part in that that's that that's a different argument now you want to have a different argument I'm telling you the semantics of where we going with this you dig like you talking about uh the the hip hop music is damn percentage that's how they want us to think when it's really not cuz we all uplifting each other you heard you think that the country music that's going on in the black people winning is not because of the hip-hop culture no no no I think no one is disputing that however so then when you say hip-hop numbers are down and damn for who no I'm talking about I know what you're talking about but damn for who tell me who it's down for because I'm still making the money I make yeah I do believe there's still a lot of artist that's making a shitload of money that they make I don't think it went down for them yeah you know what I mean but I understand what you're talking about they say the numbers and then rock and roll genre might be up like I don't really you heard like that's I'm into this business you heard and it's always up for us you heard cuz this is a business we make money out of nothing it's never a downside to this okay and and that's why I'm saying I think we're having two different conversations here cuz the conversation I'm having is I'm having I'm having right is that in as much as he's saying yeah the numbers are down because they orchestrated and whatever I get that right but also that's why I asked do you think Hip-hop has evolved cuz I grew up on hip-hop right and the same things um quote unquote you guys were rapping about in the '90s how can hipop how can hip hop evolved in the same thing that Africa been Africa been going on since the '90s aren't y going still going through the same thing we are huh we are so how could the music evolve when the music ref the time ah okay get you real stories what you want us to rap about [ __ ] that that we don't have ah we talk about [ __ ] we dream about all the time that's the good The Good Life the colorin the Ros we talk about but the truth is how the music going to change when our position hasn't changed when we still going through the same [ __ ] we've been going through okay and y'all being from Africa should know that more than we know that yeah that's facts that's fact go about that own Cod yeah yeah yeah yeah you know are bro that's a valid fact but how do you feel man like you've come from an era where you guys when what you you said in your raps I mean evolved as far as dition as far as what we rap about cuz we still stuck in the same place but as a business it has evolved to one of big time yeah yeah biggest big time money making machines you can attach yourself to this made some of the richest individuals whether you're the rapper the lawyer the executive like that's true you know what I mean the supply chain but then I think that's why you know when you get the likes of a wz coming out and Kendrick Lamar they stand out like a sore thumb because like they are rapping about but that's what music is about to stand out for those who that want to look like everybody they don't get nowhere why you think Dip set was so successful sucessful yeah because we stood out on purpose we don't want to look like or H or sound like no one else m we want yall to above all see us when we walk in the building and hear us when we get on that [ __ ] mic you heard why would you guys the diplomats I never like where did that come from the diplomats the name the diplomats yeah we diplomats oh ah okay that sounded cool no we diplomats we are Harlem diplomats and we take it as that you heard we go to the Embassy when we land in countries you heard all right okay okay okay I I sort of get that bro so in the business and how you still making money right now like from music just like how is it royalties damn you asking a lot of questions bro no I want to know bro I'm so I've got so many questions I want to ask you bro I'll tell you this music is supposed to be used so you can make as much ancillary dollars as you can because the music ain't promised everybody 15 minutes of fame ranges from a small 15 minutes of fame to a run like we having within that minute the 15 minutes the fame you better do a lot of other things to secure your bag because music is not going to be thing you be able to get paid off forever unless you're the DRS and the J that's not even 1% that's you know what I mean so you think about that so you better have some hustle you better learn how to you better have some business sense you better put your credit in order you better do a few things to secure you if you are artist [ __ ] leverage powerful penda yeah man how do you feel man when these kids these days wrap up about you know trying to act tough and rap about stuff they never done like you guys red about stuff you lived I mean I do believe a lot of these kids are going through a lot of [ __ ] that we went through and then a lot of the kids are talking about [ __ ] that they see but most of the kids are all growing up in the same community that all of that [ __ ] is going on so who tells them they don't have the right to talk about [ __ ] that they're not doing when that's still [ __ ] that they're seeing oh sure Ah that's powerful but the problem I have a problem when they rapping like they did it but they just R from somebody else's Vantage Point understand that but most of these artists that you've seen in the game some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I pretty firm in his in in his music that I'm a believer that he did some of that [ __ ] he can talk about just me I don't know you possibilities are possibilities but some things just seem correct you know mean I can't tell you for sure cuz it is music you know what I mean but some things seem correct [ __ ] man bro you got to come out to man you got to you know we haven't had a proper uh hip-hop concert in sa like since 50 N since you are come on back to the city does concerts man ah those are for old people empd the bigest artist in South Africa right now Hip-Hop Hip-Hop uh there's a guy called nastyc but nesty came here he doesn't know know you f poopa who's that nah F poopa Nigerian West African artist massive he used to pop not now for real still massive bigger than like ber boyo still it's different type of music oh stadiums is 50 60,000 people like what is this following this gu what's his name f poop F poop I don't know him bro he's from Nigeria yeah yeah yeah yeah Nigerian Prett pretty big yeah humongous bro how big was was 50 Cent bro like during his Reign man like how big was 50 Cent [ __ ] retardedly big it wasn't nothing bigger than him was Drake before Drake was dring he was oh [ __ ] he did it like it was like 50 was on a run that he never even touched the club bro like [ __ ] never seen him in the club he only did Arenas I never knew too many artist that just did that you dig like the [ __ ] was super massive every [ __ ] Rec he came out with was was going platinum and I'm just telling you the facts you heard and I always got to speak factual no matter how I feel about a person the [ __ ] was on top Super on top it was no way to knock him off his d i remember Jay-Z dropped the diss track on you did you guys resolve that beef I think you were not happy with him as the president of De jam oh man um we never really had a beef um we had some feuds back and forth through the situations that were going on over other people um and me being who I am I had to hold my ground um but to know that he actually talked about me in multiple of his records mean that I was pretty big in his eyes you dig true true cuz I didn't hear him talk about too many people in his career and if he did talk you talk about you on the record that meant something you know what I mean and I was then so for me that I I I took that like what it was like you dig like yeah J doesn't respond to take the time out to say my name you heard if I'm if I'm not that big of a deal to you you would never ever a am I am I right talk about a person you heard true it's it's a form of respect and ackowledge 100% am I right in saying a lot of [ __ ] are scared of Jay-Z bro cuz we interviewed Dam Ian I don't I don't know I'm not a lot of [ __ ] you heard I'm a man so I couldn't I I couldn't tell you that you heard I ain't scared to nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that that that dentist yeah the dentist got me there you heard you can walk in you could walk we about to fight right now you a dentist walk in you got it you got it like you got it bow down you got it I don't want no smoke let me get out of here M fact word Jimmy before you go man uh what beefs did you have so you had something beef with Jay-Z right no man I just told you we had some feuds stemming from that's beef bro stemming from other things that going on um my problem like it was all part of Us coming up in the game and things were happening we were signing a Rockefeller cam was sign a Rockefeller actually then we got opportunity to Diplomat records um the split between uh Jay and Dame came um artist took sides some took the J side some took the the Dame side which side were you on we was on the Dame side OB Dash yeah Dame Dash that's do you think Dame Dash is misunderstood bro huh you think Dame Dash is misunderstood um too smart for his own good I get that yeah if you had the opportunity again you sometimes being the smartest person in the room could be held against you especially when you want everybody to know that you're the smartest person in the room yeah yeah yeah and I get given a second chance would you still side with Dam never you wouldn't never whoa I never signed a d at all that was no no no like sided with him took his side oh give a second chance I wouldn't have sided with none of them I would we would haveed our [ __ ] business but you learned that with age yeah you heard we had no business butting into that because it wasn't a street beef and this wasn't some [ __ ] that had to do with us ultimately we were holding our [ __ ] down and [ __ ] like that but business-wise if we would if we knew what we knew now we would let them get into that they self y'all can handle that because we got records to put out and music to make and we got our own record label to run you dig and this my hinder what we got going on by us taking sides and that's why I tell people now even when people seeing all the Diplomat [ __ ] like y bro don't don't get in to taking sides with me and my bro because you never know how that might end up and if it end up to a point where we do figure out our situation then I'm looking at you funny now me and you got forever you heard you dig and there are plenty of people that did that and plenty people that didn't and plenty people that showed the same amount of love that he showed to me that it showed to cam when we were going through our imaginary situations and [ __ ] like that cuz it's all imaginary when you know you can figure figure it out now it's a saying that like don't just be in people's business when especially when they've beef and take sides cuz and I I had to learn that a lot I had took me a long time to learn that because of how we come up in the Cod that they supposedly treat us in teach us in the street and [ __ ] like that but sometimes that's not the smallest thing that we can do and then uh push a t did you ever beef with him nah that was some [ __ ] that we was on record um he did some [ __ ] I did some [ __ ] you dig that was it I never followed that I didn't even know did you know there's a pusher T me I ain't got no just know I don't know I know you're from I know you're from Africa and [ __ ] like that but people don't play with me yeah for real and I don't I don't play with people this ain't no playground you heard this is the street it's two ways don't get caught up in a yellow line it's going to be hard to cross bro yeah you heard no I don't trust me I'm from Africa but I saw what happened at the airport so that [ __ ] escalated yeah [ __ ] that was self-defense man God yo bro it looked like that guy was just messing with you bro I wish that could have never happened cuz I was trying to avoid that by all cause but [ __ ] happened sometime man you dig and definitely not not going to allow anybody do anything to me at all bro when I saw that video right like I don't know I just met you today right but I saw when you lifted that guy from the escalator threw him down he literally just went on survival mode bro like it's like there was a button that you switched on and you just like I don't [ __ ] care but yeah yeah no I mean no that's a button that I choose not to push you heard yeah exactly like you can go there quickly I choose to show restraint for a lot of reasons in my life and sometimes it's hard to you dig but where I'm at in life right now I choose positivity or all the other things that come out my way because I know how it is to be negative I was once that negative person that was very aggressive and ready to do something to to you over the minimal alistic of things and [ __ ] like that so I'm blessed to be here to try to be able to show restraint and so so the guy so the guy at the airport you guys on the same plane yeah we on the same plane so you don't have a private jet no I don't have a private jet I'm not a rich man come on Jimmy you made so much money over the years but anyway so you're in the plane what's he what's this guy saying to you like um I don't know man just [ __ ] happens I know just the started from the plane just know that what you see happen on so it starts on the plane you restrain yourself you're like all right cool my dog say whatever you want to say yeah when he gets to the airport I mean the escalator that's when I think he starts hitting you or something right yeah something like that he tried to do something like that and that's what we see man but like I said this is not something that I want to glorify it's not you think he knows who you are um if if he didn't he know now no I'm I'm sorry see sorry cuz some people just provoke I believe he was he was trolling a little bit and things like that which is cool you I mean I'm if if you in New York not time 10 you do know who I am so you know I believe it was a bit of that but God bless man hopefully that they all right hopefully the old man um cool you dig like are you spiritual cuz you mentioned God a lot man yeah I'm very spiritual very spiritual very spiritual I've been my whole family is spiritual and what does that mean in an American sense cuz um us as African for me it means a lot of different things um I was told what the church was as a young age as they drag you to church every Sunday your grandmother your moms and your family and things like that and you really don't understand what that is from that young but as you get older and you go through certain things and you make it through certain things you understand that there is a God and everybody has a relationship with their God different and sometimes going to church doesn't mean that you love your God any less or he loves you any less you dig and you say spiritual I'm very spiritual I say my prayers as much as I can sometime two three four times in a day you dig man doesn't take away from what I do and who I am because I'm still in the line for everything else everybody is in but I know every day that I'm able to wake up and every day I'm able to make a dollar and every day I'm able to keep living the life that I am I should be thankful you heard cuz that's not just me that's a higher vibration that's definitely a God you dig and I'm well aware that I've escaped many things in life that Lord knows I should not be here but then again I should be here cuz he put here for a reason he gives his toughest battles to his strongest people what the Bible say you heard and I've made it through some very tough battles which are minimal to some of the people that I had next to me in their battles you know what I mean so it's like we all got to figure it out Jim Jones thank you so much man and thanks to God for bringing you here man definitely I appreciate for making time for us bro thank you man we appreciate you tired when you got you I appreciate the fact that you could even make it man got any last question yeah man bro you said you've gone through some tough battles and you mentioned how you lost your dad at like 26 but also that you you pretty much raised yourself from the age of 15 you know from that relationship or lack of it like has it affected how you father your children 100% this made me the best father I could be but me my relationship with my father was always a great one even though he wasn't there because every day he wasn't I love them even more I wasn't one of them kids that was bitter you dig I understand that everybody went through something and at that age what he was going through there was a lot of drug addiction and I knew that from a very young age I understood what drugs was and how they were tearing up my family I never held that against my father and I was just blessed able to get back with him before he passed away so he could see that his son was making something out of himself at that time I was already signed to her uh we think we just got the Rockefeller deal so it was a very big deal for me to be able to get back with my father to show him that me somebody that you should be proud of and I know him looking down right now got be like damn I did that so you know and that's how I feel but then in turn TR here my son I don't you know I mean like I just you know mean I pride myself on making sure that I I turned my son into somebody that was way better than I could ever be you oh man yeah that's my guy shout out to you man is your son still wearing Crocs to you br he's a Croc guy you heard yeah Crocs for Life bro Crocs for Life jumping out the beam with a fresh paer Crocs on I don't want to stand him Jimmy before you go your top five rappers all time my top five rappers of all you got to give us your top five bro yeah Tupac definitely Jay-Z Drake um Drake he not like us by default of course um rock cam no Eminem No No whoa not even big you from NY and not to take nothing away from him he's extremely nice it's retardedly nice when it comes to rap but I listen to artists that kind of you know I mean do something for the life that I live and kind of what I've been through and most of these artist or artist that I'm talking about people that you know what I mean like [ __ ] better stop hating on my boy Drake all of a sudden all this Drake land I get it I get it you ain't like us let's not do that let's not forget the 15 years he been spanking [ __ ] around this [ __ ] all all all over this [ __ ] all the alley he been giving most of these artists that are now seeming to be turning on them let's you know let's not some of them gave him their best hits let's not forget the big picture here and [ __ ] like but what the hip-hop culture and this game is built on competition so I yeah but what is he with it you heard you better put your best foot forward but what has Drake given back to the culture oh that you so love here we go um what is he giving back to the culture I seen him take a lot of people on tour and turn them even richer than they already was I I seen him give a lot of people hits that they would have never had if he wouldn't have got on a record things for the culture that wouldn't have happened in turn records that we would have never knew about him to record that the culture love and things like that I mean he's not from here Canada from the hood I don't believe he owes America too much but the monster that give back to where he's from maybe we should ask about what has he done in Canada giving back to his community as opposed to what he giving back to the culture of the United States when this is not where he's from and I think that's the Divide right there now if we talk about what he's done in Canada and if it's not up to par then maybe we can talk about oh you dig but that's I think that's for the people of Canada you dig like yeah cuz but it's the people of America in the hood who made him of course you heard about but that he didn't grw up in America he didn't grew up here you heard so if you was an artist from Africa yeah like boy yeah do you think bnab boy has responsibility what do Niger of United stes n I'm taking it back home bro super duper big yes but that's what people then will call a culture vulture cuz you come into a space you know do what the people of that space do benefit from them is is is you understand what we doing like it's bro it's not because he's not take so he's not taking benab boy is Nigerian it's a Nigerian culture that is now popular in America so Drake took an American culture and enriched himself but what he's saying is that he doesn't owe anything to America cuz he's not from yet right okay right yeah I mean [ __ ] he's got no obligation Fair argument he got no obligation Fair argument yeah like he lived if he lived like I don't I don't that's how I see it you heard like that's how I see it you dig but all these [ __ ] we talking about are filthy filthy filthy rich off the opinions of men you heard what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never but what I'm just trying to tell you is how this game is played yeah you heard yeah geez man the more we talk the more they get paid the loser still gets paid too if there is a loser I don't think there's a loser when they all getting Millions off of this [ __ ] I don't think I mean like and I understand end all be all in the whole circle of it but I'm I've been in this [ __ ] for so long I'm miss you can see the politics of really get you to understand of what's really going on and [ __ ] like that this [ __ ] don't pay me a dollar to talk about it yeah hey man how tight you with Joe Bon he calls us those African guys with numbers oh yeah yeah yeah Jo this my guy buts what's up man he cool yeah he's an instigator definely know how to get under people's skin yeah I've known Joan for so long [ __ ] like that um I'm proud of him put himself in his position a whole new Lane to make a shitload of money um where it stem from the culture this what I'm talking about all the ancillary things that you need to get going on if are a artist of some type of success you got to use that to get where you want look at Joe used his startom and rap no matter what it was to able to finesse a whole new Lane of podcasting that true he's pretty big in damn near one of the forefathers of it from our culture right y'all started before him or after him we started after him but now we have more numbers than him hey doesn't matter no numbers do matter I mean no J and get num I'm cool with that but you won't be never be the considered the forefather of this whole no no no no no no no you dig 100% yeah it's Jo Joan numbers is cool I'm cool with that you get paid and I know what's a race you might be number one you heard yeah yeah but you still never be the forefather always going to have that under him like I've created this Lane for your how I feel about Ling hip hop yeah of course I got that under my belt that's mine y can never say that was yours at all yeah okay how much money you made off of it and [ __ ] like that at the end of the day you it's mine you heard Still My still mine so we always ask anybody any guest that we get on the show in closing what do you want to be remembered as man when it's all said and done I want I want to be remembered I want I want them to know that I gave more than I took because I was able to take a lot in my time amen just like that sh hey man I wish you put me on love and& hip-hop bro they got the African love of Hip Hop they got Jamaican love of Hip Hop they got they got any type of Love of Hip Hop we need the South African love of Hip Hop thanks Jim man shout out thank you bro I appreciate you man thank you we appreciate podcast and chill we out of here man boom peace welcome to Black excellenc do not fear for if you do just sip on some Grand and if you still do ask ourselves what would M [Music] do when they ask you do not fear for if you do just say an TV this is the the medicine of censorship this is the pill which one is that one podcast and chill	the greats like Kanye to put him in a position to win and [ __ ] like that and I think he's way more better as an actor than he is a musician and that's just my POS that's just my opinion he did I seen him in the movie uh about the race car [ __ ] where he was F the playe like he got a lot of Charisma and [ __ ] like that on on camera for what I could see and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean bro I mean for you as Jim Jones to to see these kids you're introduced to them by an intern and then to hop onto that song it's something selfless you know to just give these unknown kids an opportunity of sharing a song with you where do you think that selflessness comes from how was that unknown kid I'm still an unknown kid anytime I get an opportunity that's an opportunity I should be able to give to somebody else bro the fact that you could even come to our podcast shout out man yeah man you don't even know us exactly what you're saying yeah know us what's his name I don't it's fine you know remember those kids who who did the video for him anyway you know remember I remember like that kids that got the biggest African podcast I'm definitely going to know like them is my guys right	7	5	8	I think he's way more better as an actor than he is a musician and that's just my POS that's just my opinion he did I seen him in the movie uh about the race car where he was F the playe like he got a lot of Charisma and on camera for what I could see and you know what I mean bro	for you as Jim Jones to to see these kids you're introduced to them by an intern and then to hop onto that song it's something selfless you know to just give these unknown kids an opportunity of sharing a song with you where do you think that selflessness comes from how was that unknown kid I'm still an unknown kid anytime I get an opportunity that's an opportunity I should be able to give to somebody else bro	4,2,6	8,5,9	4	2	6	8	5	9
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr730VmL-lk	4,054	rr730VmL-lk	2024-06-27 00:00:00	like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano no well Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he showed me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah just understand everybody going there my guy I understand the hate exactly what you're saying yeah bro what's his name I don't it's fine you remember those some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I ain't scared of nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that the dentist yeah dentist got me there what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never [Music] [Music] yo Jimmy you do not look like you want to be here bro like someone forced you to be it's like you have to do that par they're the biggest podcast in Africa you have to be there I never look like I want to be nowhere man you got to part of me but congratulations to yall having the biggest podcast in Africa that that that's very big Africa being one of the biggest continents in the world a lot of people over there shut up man why you so tired bro crazy weekend I've been working all weekend shows different states traveling Planes Trains automobiles you know how I be a little bit too much partying yeah road kill it's tough but what's up how y'all feeling I'm good bro I literally saw um I saw your video uh yesterday for your new single the one you shot in Miami two turn temp yeah yeah how you feel about it bro that [ __ ] is lit man looks like our Vibe bro cuz we've been to Miami myself and and my partner but we never like experienced the Miami night life we were playing in Florida yeah we're DJing in Florida but two South Africans like the diaspora then West Palm Beach as well yeah DJ also yeah like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano what it's a genre it's called a piano no no cuz I'm a piano even you heard like you saw he did the whole Keys thing it has nothing to do with the piano that's where it started but has nothing to do with it these days when when I met charlot man he said the exact same thing he's like oh so you're a podcaster I'm like yeah and then you DJs I'm like no I play I'm a Pian like you're a Pianist man you one talented [ __ ] n it's a genre of music man what kind of genre is that like it's like slowed down house music with a lot of s that African influence that's the only way I can describe it so it's a it's a mix of a marriage house yeah a marriage of house music which originated here at Chicago and stuff and then we slowed it down created a sub genre called guo where guys were sort of rapping but very minimalist raps called guo then the kids were born like in the 2000s late '90s then created a whole meshup of those two genres and it's called Piano cuz a a lot of Americans think it's um afro beats it's not afro beats yeah a lot of the hence I avoided saying afro beats cuz AFR beats is from Nigeria and amap piano is far from afro beat afro beat borrows from am piano now where is amap piano originated from South Africa from the hoods from the Cassis yeah but when I when I was looking at your video bro uh the only thing in my mind was like bro what's a night like out with Jim Jones CU that [ __ ] look lit there [ __ ] everywhere bro um please please describe a night out in Miami with Jim so let's say we going to Miami right now I mean some nice are better than others but been doing it so long it's kind of like the the bare minimum for us to do in Miami just having fun but it still work at the same time like every every I'm I'm not just going out partying for no reason ni like that was we knew what we was kind of getting into we wanted to film a video so we knew we was going to ramp it up a bit take it to the to the highest form going crazy as we could but that actually happened to fall on a big weekend um and one of my dudes was celebrating so everything kind of happened for a reason but yeah Miami could take you for take you for a few a few trips man like okay so so so me and you we get in the car right I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm in Miami I hate you cuz you got a house there you stay there right yeah I got I got I got cribs there so I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm by the strip you know that Miami strip right yeah yeah yeah I mean see that's the thing about Miami when you come to visit Miami that's where people are know at like the strip and things like that I guess stand by Collins and ocean driveing all that people that live there don't really do the strip like that like you just you dig people congregate usually at night time and all the spots that usually go on down there um okay so we got security obviously you got to roll around with security right um yeah I mean that' be the safest thing for me to do so we get out the cut with security when you get to the bouncers are they letting us in cuz it's Jim Jones or are they checking our IDs cuz they've been checking our IDs just to buy beer here bro Che ID everywhere yeah everywhere yeah no I I don't think I produced my ID in since I was a teenager at clubs but yeah you won't need your ID when you with me so we walking in right yeah we going to get in oh do we have a section do we they going to give us a section VIP yeah they going to give us a section we going to get some bottles and let the night ensue got this thing called Power Hour you go to the club maybe like 2:45 to 3:45 in and out no sweat so what's the what's the purpose of that exercise the Power Hour yeah like why would you be in the cloud for an hour why would I be in a club for 4 hours it's Fu I mean I've been part I've been partying since I've been 14 I've been making money to party since I've been 18 I'm kind of burnt out so at this point I try to wait till the club is at the most popping or lest moment which is usually that hour right there and I get to enjoy everything that happened tonight and leave out of there and not be all burnt out what what does your wife say bro cuz you're married man you're surrounded by all these girls like you know I mean I'm going to worry about the women yeah is minimal to the money worry about the money more than anything so so a woman doesn't like give you grief when you come home I yeah you get you get grief all the time if you in a relationship no matter what you do if you had a job on Wall Street you get home you're going to get grief no around it you heard yeah there's women everywhere unless you work in the LGBT Club then you know I mean even there you still going to go home and get like it's no way around it you're going to get you know I mean like yeah so you've never had like been home and you had to explain like yo no man I was just doing music video it's just work like I don't know that good you going to explain yourself in every relationship and things like that I got a good woman at home who understands a job I have and things like that so for the most part but for the most part I'm a very responsible respectable person when when I'm in the streets and when I do have to interact with females and things like that yeah anyway H ladies and gentlemen welcome to another special edition of podcasting chill so CU yeah I am here we're chilling with the [ __ ] Legend Kings of Harlem please make some noise for Jim Jones Jim I gotta say bro I gotta say bro I'm going to be honest with you when I find that your name was GMO geloo gelo I'm like I'm like Jim Jones losing some G points here man what the [ __ ] is that I'm Puerto Rican and a rubian my pops is Puerto Rican the word gelo means William in English is a Spanish Spanish name cuz you know what I was thinking I was thinking that guy who does the show late night you know the short guy who does like the interviews with um this late night comedian man what are the late night shows oh man not uh bad with these oh gosh the late night guy bro uhri or something not Corin O'Brien no not Trevor Noah the other American guy man like uh old new no he's like jimm Kimel Jimmy Kimel jimy he's got that he's got that short guy his name is julo oh I don't I don't I don't got got me messed up I don't even really watch TV like that bro okay I'll be out chasing the money I ain't even got time to do that and if and if I do got some time I'm trying to get a little bit of rest or I'm thinking about money [ __ ] is crucial out here right now you better get to your dollar a lot of [ __ ] about to happen and if you ain't got no coins boy you going to be [ __ ] up you ever been to uh Puerto Rico yeah I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times yeah but business not for the Heritage part of it so like you don't know where like your your your parents were at Familiar of the place where my father's from but I never really got to do the whole go to give with my family understand the roots understand you know I mean like I didn't get to get to that part of it but I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times you find like that's important like to know you it's definitely important I had this um I did an interview not too long ago about um how important the roots are and get to know where my family from know I mean so we'll start to do that pretty soon so so so your dad you know you know your dad right yeah he's passed away oh okay God bless rest in peace what happened to him he passed away yeah like was it um medical thing or yeah natural causes oh damn like when you young or um maybe when I was uh 23 24 oh damn bro SED to hear that man maybe 26 right before my son passed right before my God bless right before my son Bor bro but you like 47 right now I look good for 47y old man no homo you know what I mean thank you very much like what was what's keeping you looking so good is it the yoga yeah a lot of yoga a lot of Pilates I stay in shape um I'm very uh very big on Fitness um work out like five six times a week um it's one of the best ways to stay young and have better chances of living a long life is that why you do it or maybe there's other purpose like you know a lot of people are in gym for their mental health I mean it's very it's very it's very therapeutic I will say that but my main goal is to look good of course but to give me better chances of living forever bro so how you got into rap um I don't know correct me if I'm wrong right but you used to skip church and go to the train station to to rap like no I never skipped Church to go on the train station and rap I skipped Church to go to the train station and go play video games and run the streets and do everything a bad little kid did from the streets of hollow when we was like S8 and n and things like that I don't know if you know about anything about the subway system in New York but that's the pathway system that get you to all five burrows and we definitely was on the subway which maybe we shouldn't have been but we was a little uh loose um for me rapping actually rapping didn't start later on in life to actually uh C and um they I got a deal and things like that and that was the first time me myself really thought about actually raing cuz I'll be honest with you like um dipet I don't really know much about dipet however I know about you guys individually like Cameron old boy like one of my favorite songs uh jul sna had hear that that was Cameron and Jules and jwes he both was on he both old boy and heon yeah why don't you jump on those tracks man those tracks are massive they was already done I was there for the making of both of them incredible tracks yeah and then how did dipit start start like how did you guys start the whole movement um organically kiss him Harem gr up together um talented kids Cam and Mason BL sh was they already was doing music um Everybody gradu graduated high school I didn't get to go to college they went to college they got kicked out they got kicked out they come moved in with me from that that was a uh foundation for them to D into the music you've been in the game for like 20 30 odd years right been in the game for since 1997 how would you describe the different eras of like um hip-hop right especially now cuz um obviously we all know about the Kendrick Lamar song they're not like us but I didn't know how big it was until I landed in in in America and it's like it's like a movement the video yeah it's like huge it's massive bro yeah it's a big record Kendrick did that shout out to Kendrick shout out to my boy Drake but what do you think about like the evolution of hip-hop in all the different areas you've been a part of what do you mean what do I think about it it's a great thing to be a part of something that um you could only dream of everybody doesn't get a chance to be in this game um I've been fortunate enough to be here for so many genres and errors and seen so many people come and go I've watched the smallest artist to the biggest artist who you thow will be here forever and going um I got stories for days I can tell you about um how I feel about it I feel great I feel blessed you know what I mean I feel lucky this [ __ ] don't it's not promised and for me to still be here is definitely a blessing so in the 90s what was the vibe like man like like what in the 90s as far as what in hip-hop yeah it was it was different um 90s was a great era um one of my favorite errors um that was the era we first first came outside um started to get out deal uh very aggressive era uh no social media um cell phones were just being born um everything that you seen you was something that you could grab on to um artists had to go to the towns we couldn't just get on your phone and music you had to go get you couldn't just have access to it so it was a it was it it was a hunt um you had to touch the Tails kiss babies do radio everything like it was just a different ER but who was around like during that time when you who was around like Tupac was did you like meet Tupac Tupac I didn't get to meet Tupac um Tupac passed away what 95 was that yeah right in big in '97 um no I got to see Tupac do a few times in Harlem um that was dope but um not Tupac passed away before we got to get in the record game but I've seen a lot of a lot of artists in my time from a young age to old age we were partying in clubs as teenagers before we even got a record deal and things like that like we were in clubs since high school and [ __ ] like that so any interactions with Big L he was from Harlem right yeah shouts to Big Al Big Al was definitely from Harlem um 139th NFL Big L um I was one of the Cam's uh close friends um actually put cam on a dope record that started to give uh Cam and bloodshed and and her mcgree her was already popping too but guy gave them some notice when it came to R so when you come out like who's who's popping at that time is it git is it mop D it's way before G when we came out I was like Eminem just dropped oh [ __ ] this is Slim Shady not M like Slim Shady I I remember that that was like cam had dropped and Eminem had dropped DMX had dropped Nori had dropped um Big Pun had dropped lud Chris Luda had just started coming out um Nelly Nelly down down baby yeah shouts to coola love um yeah that type of error shouts to shouts to Fat Joe shouts to Buster they was already in it uh Nas was already in it Jay start going crazy that's when he just started taking over with the 1 million 2 million 3 million 4 um yeah very competitive very edgy um lot of the big dogs um had real roots in the streets um especially in the streets of New York so that put that put a real Mystique on everything when it came to the music um all the events with topnotch um it just was a different feel man it was a heavy heavy dope boy era um this was before the drug dealers wanted to be Rappers that's when the rappers wanted to be drug dealers you know what I mean and and that Arrow was was a very dope high impact trenel and Russian it was a was a great error bro I saw an interview you did correct me if I'm wrong I might be paraphrasing but you mentioned a place called the tunnel or something where everybody would be and you guys were [ __ ] [ __ ] in the bathrooms please please describe that manest cuz a place like that couldn't exist right now bro with all this woke [ __ ] I mean yeah and the cancel cult I would say it was probably the greatest Club The Hip hopers have seen and it was during the 90s era it was the Golden Era um in New York they got you had stories about like Studio 54 in that era when everybody used all the biggest of big used to go to Studio 54 well the tunnel was what Studio 54 was to that era to our era and it didn't make so many people and nationalities and genres and just everybody was like a big pumbo all for the sake of the culture you had some of the flyest models to some of the biggest drug dealers biggest gang bangers I mean every former elicit street life you could think of was in the spot along with the biggest artists and rappers and actors and models that you could find into all athletes um it would definitely like that um and was this like per invite or just like anybody could Rock up there nah you couldn't just rock up there for this is '90s entry was like $100 first of all $100 for a club that was the first time we ever heard of it and that was a lot of money back then especially we probably started in '94 going there teenager so $100 was sto a lot of money in New York at the time sneakers wasn't even costing $100 um to get in the club you definitely had to be connected to know somebody or you had to wait on a long line that usually was a block long um they had like an Express line you could pay $100 to get on Express line that'll get you to the door quicker and then you pay your entry fee um streets was blocked off you was a big dog you was able to bring your cars down there I was able to bring like four five of them if I wanted to um yeah the club was just it was different man pull up to the door security they taking people's shoes off they searching your jacket twisting people inside out like they about to go on the Rikers Island I got to I gave security High files I never took my shoes off and not since high school I when we used go in high school we used to get our shoes taken off and things like that make you feel like you going to the cental bookings and [ __ ] like that so what gave you that clout that allowed you to bring four cars in when nobody or you had to be a big dog to bring four cars in when you could just give them a high five instead of removing your shoes and you're young by then like what gives you that CL I was a big dog since a small pup bro J yeah man what gave you those you know credentials at such a young age to suppos all these people cuz Dr Tre was there yeah you putting in four cars not removing shoes I was a good Lord Biden citizen everybody love Jim Jones even even the girls like would you just rock up they say let's go to the bathroom that's it yeah now that well yeah there was a lot of that going on they had a uh the layout was different first of all the club was a block long a whole city block um wow there was like three other four other clubs within the club or spots that look like clubs um the main floor was humongously big the DJ was like a a lifeguard Tower in the middle of the club um you go upstairs they had a VR big V PE upstairs and then go through a door it open up to the bathroom the bathroom was like a unisex Club [ __ ] had a big ass bar in the middle of the bathroom uh bunch of stalls lined up um that [ __ ] was like a hotel inside Lions cocaine everything yeah they was going down a lot of sex was going down there a lot of a lot of drugs was going down in there um yeah the tunnel was definitely uh a landmark to New York City when it comes to the clubs I I definitely um I always think about that club um it did a lot for me in my life um it gave me a lot of imagination when it came to to the culture and the things I was seeing from a young age as to where I want to be and the direction I want to go in yeah we was going there since high school so when you seeing people like Mike Tyson and all these people coming in big cheer on and just having their way as a kid go out got to go to school the next morning you you in school thinking about that [ __ ] like w man this school [ __ ] [ __ ] this school [ __ ] I need some money and I need to go to the tunnel that's all I want to [ __ ] do that's wild man now can you imagine because we in sa right we're looking at all the videos that you guys are pulling out there like we're looking at this lifestyle and then you F Track to 2024 right M and the P didy thing breaks out right I mean i' rather not even to get into that yeah just don't I rather the do I don't you know I mean like it's not it's not my business oh I mean like this you heard God bless it's too much n yeah and it's not me to have an opinion on certain things cuz I ain't perfect I've been through my own [ __ ] in life and I see a lot of people that have even this doing too much just know that I ain't perfect so I choose not to talk on certain [ __ ] that you know what I mean a lot of other people people been talking about I let them keep doing the talk and I got other [ __ ] to work on I'm trying to work on me being a better person yeah I respect I respect that man but were ever part of any gang or like you sounding like the F never hey we don't the F in South Africa man only PS I'm just playing with you yeah I've been affiliated with the bloods in New York City um ENT Tre um yeah so crazy have you ever been to sa like have you ever been to Africa or um I've been to Africa where did you go uh gaban gille damn G to perform there um I went to perform there but uh got some great friends there they actually had ran the country at the time this is before the big yeah yeah overtaking and stuff like that but I had a ball out there I got to go to an island called Pony um that was a dope experience as they took me to the jungles I got to see some of the indigenous people um it was like a a real um life Awakening like and I got to see how also the rich people live out there also like I got to see both sides like that you know what I mean it was it was a great experience I out there for like a week um I haven't been back since but yeah it was dope you never been to South Africa never been to South Africa bro so the reason why I asked that is because like yo bro like American culture has infiltrated South Africa like you can't believe like you know we got people worshiping you guys you know Jim Jones rappers and everything you so we've got rappers who rap just like you and youd say they're like Bloods and Crips but they've never they've never left sa you know cuz that's how influential uh the culture is right but from you when you see or hear that like what do you guys think like do you think is like some [ __ ] like or like leave don't don't follow the gang life you know what I mean oh as far as that is concerned um there's two sides to that this what you do as a gang member that turns it into something that becomes a crime or whatever that end but the Brotherhood part of it is what the most of us joined up for when we coming up in the hood and need that Brotherhood lean on somebody is that type of camaraderie that pretty much stood for and there's a lot of other great attributes that comes with affiliation or you becoming a part of a gang um it gets twisted up because we all come up in these urban communities and our back is against the wall we don't have no opportunities um it's very dormant uh we on top of each other so naturally testosterone testosterone wins in a lot of these situations where these kids find s in bad situations and for that I would tell people to kind of stay away from this type of life um I don't want to oppose my will we all going to experience what we going to experience but I can't tell you the consequences to this type of Lifestyle could be very dear you heard ethal a lot of people don't get to make it where I made it and Escape that lifestyle that could have put me away or could have put me in the dirt I mean so here as a Living testament to tell you that these consequences are terrible the odds on you making it out of that life in a positive manner are very slim I mean but if you are in that life and you taking it as a Brotherhood and try to uplift your brothers I know there's a lot of people around you that are doing a lot of [ __ ] that that that that that's very crazy you know what I mean if you're a part of that and you got the positive minder then you try to uplift your brother and instill some positivity within them because it's very cold out here so I've always been curious bro like so when that when you you you start getting immersed you know or Affiliated in the gang life how does that affect the conversation at home with your parents like your mom your dad and just the domestic you know Dynamics I a't grow my parents I was a grown man since I was like 15 I made my own money since I was like 16 my grandmother left me in high school man I was raising my Sisters by myself in the projects I hustle every I ever got in my life that's why music saved my life I was so grateful to be able to be next to cam and him getting a deal at such a very young age to be able to still be making money off that [ __ ] right now you were U anr for Warner uh music group yeah I was the director of anr for Warner Music Group um years ago uh shouts to Kevin L shouts to Leo Cohen for giving me the opportunity um great opportunity uh I excelled at it extremely very young with a lot of power but didn't understand what I had at hand um didn't have too many people in my corner that were telling me the things that I should have been doing with that type of position as opposed to some type of weird way be hating you know I mean so that's what happened but as you get older you learn you learn and you move on who did you discover while you were in that position uh I would tell you a story I I know I've helped try s uh they come to tra songs that you know today he's always in he's always in we know why no n but he was a young kid at the time and uh they were actually going to cut him from the label we had a big uh um it's like uh one of them uh some events they be doing not the talent shows the uh well was something like that all the artists had to come perform and then they pretty much didn't know that they was on a Cho and block at the time when I was an executive and and he was one of the artists that they were going to cut and I remember Kevin L specifically ask me yo what we should do with him I'm about to cut him I don't know what to do with him and when I heard him uh singing and I saw him perform I was like this is this is one artist you should keep and did that and now we all tra songs on so many dope ass records is it true you could have signed Drake yeah I had a chance to sign uh I had a chance to do business with Drake um through Allan grum blat um when I was doing business at cotch um it was a different era I didn't understand what Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he show me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah understand everybody going at my guy I understand the hate man the hate is so phenomenal it's just how this game go man this game is so tricky man these [ __ ] just like females in this game we ain't going to get into that man there's a lot of uh but wait wait wait so so with Drake like are you are you seeing him perform like try songs or like you just heard of the guy just a conversation Allan called me about signing a kid let me hear some of his music um and I was like the kid know how to rap but I don't know what to do with him his image is crazy and him couple years later heard him on a Wheezy mixtape going crazy I was like wow this kid is about to go wham inside of this business and he sure did and you're know trying to call Weezy like yo man I gotta get that kid or something n he was already signed a young money and jcole did you miss on jcole as well I could have signed J Cole bro jcole was in the studio with me every day and at that point jcole I he's he remind me of a knockoff Drake and not to say it like that but that's who he sounded like he came to my studio every day rapping to these Drake beats rapping like Drake Cadence like Drake he could rap his ass off yeah you heard yeah but it was already a drake out there he had the Caesar it was different like two lightskinn [ __ ] might not K when raing the same but you never know what you got in front of you man you dig and those are lessons I I've took with me to moving forward when I see artists and and I hate artists I always give them more than just hearing just just I got to I got to I gotta try to capture the whole picture I make sure I just don't you mean so I don't miss nothing else because I've missed a few people and I've helped a few people um gain a lot of success in in my time in this industry whether it been by me having a meeting with them or me having influence on them or you know I mean so you know and there's never like any animosity like Jake Cole or Drake never came up to be like yo you could have signed me look at me now bro I mean me and Drake is cool as [ __ ] um I see J Cole I don't think he I mean I don't think that's no he some [ __ ] he might want to keep to himself not to be like that sh the co he not that type of artist he's not a you I mean yeah you did I look I look at as we can see I want to mention an artist who like I'm really fond of like I think this guy's [ __ ] amazing musically talented everything that he touched like turned to Gold who's that uh kid k bro K Cy yeah yeah did you help him with his career yeah I birth K Cy wow J me how so bro bir them nobody would have know who K Cy was at all if I a jump on this remix record but it wasn't even remix he wasn't even a nobody like I tell a story all the time I had a inter used to work for me said he got some dudes that do videos they would like to do a video for me told them come let me see they work they show me their videos the first video they showed me was of the kid Cy record he's on the top of a roof some simple video the record sound more wavy than the opportunity for them to do a video I'm like well if you'll get me the beat to this record I Remix this record and then y'all can shoot the video to that record wow and that's what they did and then um the radio station ripped the record off of YouTube and start playing it at Hot 97 and K Cy was born bro why do you think especially about kid Cy cuz from him when I listen to music right it wasn't really no no other kid Cy record besides the one that I was on yeah man he's not in they don't play his records where I be at at all not to be funny wow bro and we listen to him like all that day and night you know remember only record I know yeah it's the only record I know unless it's like a pop record that everybody know and I and I'm even not paying attention to it but he don't his records don't get played nowhere that i' be at not like that unless I go into a different farm and that's the type of music they playing in one of these funny clubs that play fist pump music and pop music he's not into like you dig like they don't play his music in the clubs I'll be at maybe in Vegas and [ __ ] like that but that's not like they not pumping this [ __ ] in live they not pumping this [ __ ] in Atlanta they not pumping this [ __ ] down the Stafford room or you know what I mean like they I'm not saying nothing like that but I don't hear it in the strip clubs I don't hear like you know what I mean so but he's a very successful person with some of the greats like Kanye to put him in a position to win and [ __ ] like that and I think he's way more better as an actor than he is a musician and that's just my POS that's just my opinion he did I seen him in the movie uh about the race car [ __ ] where he was F the playe like he got a lot of Charisma and [ __ ] like that on on camera for what I could see and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean bro I mean for you as Jim Jones to to see these kids you're introduced to them by an intern and then to hop onto that song it's something selfless you know to just give these unknown kids an opportunity of sharing a song with you where do you think that selflessness comes from how was that unknown kid I'm still an unknown kid anytime I get an opportunity that's an opportunity I should be able to give to somebody else bro the fact that you could even come to our podcast shout out man yeah man you don't even know us exactly what you're saying yeah know us what's his name I don't it's fine you know remember those kids who who did the video for him anyway you know remember I remember like that kids that got the biggest African podcast I'm definitely going to know like them is my guys right family right there appreciate I really mean that that sincerely and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean I I bump in too many people in my life and been across too many people in my journey to actually remember everybody's name but the face and the cause and I mean BR I want to understand right the first time you came up with the concept For Love and Hip Hop where were you what was happening that um that was something like uh me and Christy she had opportunity to do uh her own reality show um and actually fell through and that kind of she was kind of she wanted to do that I can see she was eager about doing that when it fell through kind you know I mean [ __ ] with her mood and [ __ ] like that so so so so so the initial concept what was it was just Chrissy just showing like what's life the initial concept was about she had her own thing going on about a group of women that was supposed to do a reality show had nothing to do with me yeah that [ __ ] fell through she lost that opportunity to end up not going people have been begging me to do reality TV for past couple years at the time and I and you reality TV gold man I refused to do it yeah and then when that happened I was like all right I got I'll do this for you and we'll make it about you and females that have to that are involved with artist such as myself and show what the relationship side is when you're dealing with a high-profile artist and you know what I mean how so that's how that started bro and that thing became a monster super super monster like it's still big till this day bro 100% so do you have like uh ownership in that we we were link a all that you know at that time when maybe the second season we just in a position where we refuse to compromise our dignity for anyone or any dollar and sometimes it be like that you know what I mean um but ain't no stress off my back T my hat to him you no but but but we got to talk about that because you see like this podcast um it's blackowned right it's just me and a couple of other people that are involved in the podcast right and we're always striving for ownership so a lot of um Brands and investors have come to try to buy the podcast and we say know cuz like we believe in ownership and telling the story the way we want to tell it right so what went wrong in that because as a hustler I believe like that's your also end goal MH um it wasn't something that I was just a lot of different layers and [ __ ] like that and I was too worried about doing other things and we had the opportunity to gain all ownership 50% of the whole TV show and all that but it still wasn't worth GE bro that's insane you just let go like that yeah bro it's your brain child bro there is no Love and& Hip Hop without you bro I still got a brain you heard yeah those are for people that don't have a brain that lack creativity people that steal things from you lack what you don't have remember that yeah whether it's money whether it's creativity whatever it is they lack what you don't have ultimately they steal from you you heard I mean we didn't even know C beef if it wasn't for Love and& Hip Hop right yeah yeah yeah definitely yeah bro you gave birth to so many many people man like VI their careers that's the god in me that's why I'm always going to be good yeah she man so any other shows that you're working on like in the pipeline that you want to do I was telling you I working on um a late night show a late night um a late night variety show live in studio audience hopefully we'll be filming in about 40 to 60 days um beautiful concept I do I do believe people going enjoy the show um like I was saying I can't do um a podcast is too personal for me and [ __ ] like that and me watching these podcasts um dealing with these artists me myself don't have the temperament for it you know what I mean um I [ __ ] I T my hat to y'all to have to deal with artists such as myself cuz you never know what type of mood they going to come in you know what I me some of these artists have a air to them where they feel like they better than most and they would never sit and have tea with the with the maintenance guy you heard me myself me going to maintenance guy going to smoke blunts before I get on stage [Music] I live my life and and and currently uh before we let you go man what do you think about the state of hip-hop cuz like statistically numbers wise it's not looking good man e beats has played all over New York now there's now the pianos this is this is what they want you to do this is how to get us to go against each other it's all under the same culture umbrella it's afro music ref I'm a piano I'm a piano explain that what do you mean by that bro yeah R&B what do you mean by that ultimately it's all from under the same origin and creativity of the same person from the same colors is all our thing n but let's be honest Jimmy hip-hop hasn't involved bro when I was listening to Eminem what do you want mean what do you mean hip-hop hasn't evolved you guys are still rapping about the same stuff it don't you you missing the point of what hip-hop is yeah hip-hop has evolved to a point that you can be the music genres that you're told them about can be noticed you think that if there was a hip hop that I'm a piano would be noticed or afro Beach would be noticed think about that and not to take nothing away from y because you always have culture and yes that music might be big within the continent of Africa yeah right but to cross over to American Fame and commercialism you don't think that the hip-hop culture played a big part in that that's that that's a different argument now you want to have a different argument I'm telling you the semantics of where we going with this you dig like you talking about uh the the hip hop music is damn percentage that's how they want us to think when it's really not cuz we all uplifting each other you heard you think that the country music that's going on in the black people winning is not because of the hip-hop culture no no no I think no one is disputing that however so then when you say hip-hop numbers are down and damn for who no I'm talking about I know what you're talking about but damn for who tell me who it's down for because I'm still making the money I make yeah I do believe there's still a lot of artist that's making a shitload of money that they make I don't think it went down for them yeah you know what I mean but I understand what you're talking about they say the numbers and then rock and roll genre might be up like I don't really you heard like that's I'm into this business you heard and it's always up for us you heard cuz this is a business we make money out of nothing it's never a downside to this okay and and that's why I'm saying I think we're having two different conversations here cuz the conversation I'm having is I'm having I'm having right is that in as much as he's saying yeah the numbers are down because they orchestrated and whatever I get that right but also that's why I asked do you think Hip-hop has evolved cuz I grew up on hip-hop right and the same things um quote unquote you guys were rapping about in the '90s how can hipop how can hip hop evolved in the same thing that Africa been Africa been going on since the '90s aren't y going still going through the same thing we are huh we are so how could the music evolve when the music ref the time ah okay get you real stories what you want us to rap about [ __ ] that that we don't have ah we talk about [ __ ] we dream about all the time that's the good The Good Life the colorin the Ros we talk about but the truth is how the music going to change when our position hasn't changed when we still going through the same [ __ ] we've been going through okay and y'all being from Africa should know that more than we know that yeah that's facts that's fact go about that own Cod yeah yeah yeah yeah you know are bro that's a valid fact but how do you feel man like you've come from an era where you guys when what you you said in your raps I mean evolved as far as dition as far as what we rap about cuz we still stuck in the same place but as a business it has evolved to one of big time yeah yeah biggest big time money making machines you can attach yourself to this made some of the richest individuals whether you're the rapper the lawyer the executive like that's true you know what I mean the supply chain but then I think that's why you know when you get the likes of a wz coming out and Kendrick Lamar they stand out like a sore thumb because like they are rapping about but that's what music is about to stand out for those who that want to look like everybody they don't get nowhere why you think Dip set was so successful sucessful yeah because we stood out on purpose we don't want to look like or H or sound like no one else m we want yall to above all see us when we walk in the building and hear us when we get on that [ __ ] mic you heard why would you guys the diplomats I never like where did that come from the diplomats the name the diplomats yeah we diplomats oh ah okay that sounded cool no we diplomats we are Harlem diplomats and we take it as that you heard we go to the Embassy when we land in countries you heard all right okay okay okay I I sort of get that bro so in the business and how you still making money right now like from music just like how is it royalties damn you asking a lot of questions bro no I want to know bro I'm so I've got so many questions I want to ask you bro I'll tell you this music is supposed to be used so you can make as much ancillary dollars as you can because the music ain't promised everybody 15 minutes of fame ranges from a small 15 minutes of fame to a run like we having within that minute the 15 minutes the fame you better do a lot of other things to secure your bag because music is not going to be thing you be able to get paid off forever unless you're the DRS and the J that's not even 1% that's you know what I mean so you think about that so you better have some hustle you better learn how to you better have some business sense you better put your credit in order you better do a few things to secure you if you are artist [ __ ] leverage powerful penda yeah man how do you feel man when these kids these days wrap up about you know trying to act tough and rap about stuff they never done like you guys red about stuff you lived I mean I do believe a lot of these kids are going through a lot of [ __ ] that we went through and then a lot of the kids are talking about [ __ ] that they see but most of the kids are all growing up in the same community that all of that [ __ ] is going on so who tells them they don't have the right to talk about [ __ ] that they're not doing when that's still [ __ ] that they're seeing oh sure Ah that's powerful but the problem I have a problem when they rapping like they did it but they just R from somebody else's Vantage Point understand that but most of these artists that you've seen in the game some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I pretty firm in his in in his music that I'm a believer that he did some of that [ __ ] he can talk about just me I don't know you possibilities are possibilities but some things just seem correct you know mean I can't tell you for sure cuz it is music you know what I mean but some things seem correct [ __ ] man bro you got to come out to man you got to you know we haven't had a proper uh hip-hop concert in sa like since 50 N since you are come on back to the city does concerts man ah those are for old people empd the bigest artist in South Africa right now Hip-Hop Hip-Hop uh there's a guy called nastyc but nesty came here he doesn't know know you f poopa who's that nah F poopa Nigerian West African artist massive he used to pop not now for real still massive bigger than like ber boyo still it's different type of music oh stadiums is 50 60,000 people like what is this following this gu what's his name f poop F poop I don't know him bro he's from Nigeria yeah yeah yeah yeah Nigerian Prett pretty big yeah humongous bro how big was was 50 Cent bro like during his Reign man like how big was 50 Cent [ __ ] retardedly big it wasn't nothing bigger than him was Drake before Drake was dring he was oh [ __ ] he did it like it was like 50 was on a run that he never even touched the club bro like [ __ ] never seen him in the club he only did Arenas I never knew too many artist that just did that you dig like the [ __ ] was super massive every [ __ ] Rec he came out with was was going platinum and I'm just telling you the facts you heard and I always got to speak factual no matter how I feel about a person the [ __ ] was on top Super on top it was no way to knock him off his d i remember Jay-Z dropped the diss track on you did you guys resolve that beef I think you were not happy with him as the president of De jam oh man um we never really had a beef um we had some feuds back and forth through the situations that were going on over other people um and me being who I am I had to hold my ground um but to know that he actually talked about me in multiple of his records mean that I was pretty big in his eyes you dig true true cuz I didn't hear him talk about too many people in his career and if he did talk you talk about you on the record that meant something you know what I mean and I was then so for me that I I I took that like what it was like you dig like yeah J doesn't respond to take the time out to say my name you heard if I'm if I'm not that big of a deal to you you would never ever a am I am I right talk about a person you heard true it's it's a form of respect and ackowledge 100% am I right in saying a lot of [ __ ] are scared of Jay-Z bro cuz we interviewed Dam Ian I don't I don't know I'm not a lot of [ __ ] you heard I'm a man so I couldn't I I couldn't tell you that you heard I ain't scared to nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that that that dentist yeah the dentist got me there you heard you can walk in you could walk we about to fight right now you a dentist walk in you got it you got it like you got it bow down you got it I don't want no smoke let me get out of here M fact word Jimmy before you go man uh what beefs did you have so you had something beef with Jay-Z right no man I just told you we had some feuds stemming from that's beef bro stemming from other things that going on um my problem like it was all part of Us coming up in the game and things were happening we were signing a Rockefeller cam was sign a Rockefeller actually then we got opportunity to Diplomat records um the split between uh Jay and Dame came um artist took sides some took the J side some took the the Dame side which side were you on we was on the Dame side OB Dash yeah Dame Dash that's do you think Dame Dash is misunderstood bro huh you think Dame Dash is misunderstood um too smart for his own good I get that yeah if you had the opportunity again you sometimes being the smartest person in the room could be held against you especially when you want everybody to know that you're the smartest person in the room yeah yeah yeah and I get given a second chance would you still side with Dam never you wouldn't never whoa I never signed a d at all that was no no no like sided with him took his side oh give a second chance I wouldn't have sided with none of them I would we would haveed our [ __ ] business but you learned that with age yeah you heard we had no business butting into that because it wasn't a street beef and this wasn't some [ __ ] that had to do with us ultimately we were holding our [ __ ] down and [ __ ] like that but business-wise if we would if we knew what we knew now we would let them get into that they self y'all can handle that because we got records to put out and music to make and we got our own record label to run you dig and this my hinder what we got going on by us taking sides and that's why I tell people now even when people seeing all the Diplomat [ __ ] like y bro don't don't get in to taking sides with me and my bro because you never know how that might end up and if it end up to a point where we do figure out our situation then I'm looking at you funny now me and you got forever you heard you dig and there are plenty of people that did that and plenty people that didn't and plenty people that showed the same amount of love that he showed to me that it showed to cam when we were going through our imaginary situations and [ __ ] like that cuz it's all imaginary when you know you can figure figure it out now it's a saying that like don't just be in people's business when especially when they've beef and take sides cuz and I I had to learn that a lot I had took me a long time to learn that because of how we come up in the Cod that they supposedly treat us in teach us in the street and [ __ ] like that but sometimes that's not the smallest thing that we can do and then uh push a t did you ever beef with him nah that was some [ __ ] that we was on record um he did some [ __ ] I did some [ __ ] you dig that was it I never followed that I didn't even know did you know there's a pusher T me I ain't got no just know I don't know I know you're from I know you're from Africa and [ __ ] like that but people don't play with me yeah for real and I don't I don't play with people this ain't no playground you heard this is the street it's two ways don't get caught up in a yellow line it's going to be hard to cross bro yeah you heard no I don't trust me I'm from Africa but I saw what happened at the airport so that [ __ ] escalated yeah [ __ ] that was self-defense man God yo bro it looked like that guy was just messing with you bro I wish that could have never happened cuz I was trying to avoid that by all cause but [ __ ] happened sometime man you dig and definitely not not going to allow anybody do anything to me at all bro when I saw that video right like I don't know I just met you today right but I saw when you lifted that guy from the escalator threw him down he literally just went on survival mode bro like it's like there was a button that you switched on and you just like I don't [ __ ] care but yeah yeah no I mean no that's a button that I choose not to push you heard yeah exactly like you can go there quickly I choose to show restraint for a lot of reasons in my life and sometimes it's hard to you dig but where I'm at in life right now I choose positivity or all the other things that come out my way because I know how it is to be negative I was once that negative person that was very aggressive and ready to do something to to you over the minimal alistic of things and [ __ ] like that so I'm blessed to be here to try to be able to show restraint and so so the guy so the guy at the airport you guys on the same plane yeah we on the same plane so you don't have a private jet no I don't have a private jet I'm not a rich man come on Jimmy you made so much money over the years but anyway so you're in the plane what's he what's this guy saying to you like um I don't know man just [ __ ] happens I know just the started from the plane just know that what you see happen on so it starts on the plane you restrain yourself you're like all right cool my dog say whatever you want to say yeah when he gets to the airport I mean the escalator that's when I think he starts hitting you or something right yeah something like that he tried to do something like that and that's what we see man but like I said this is not something that I want to glorify it's not you think he knows who you are um if if he didn't he know now no I'm I'm sorry see sorry cuz some people just provoke I believe he was he was trolling a little bit and things like that which is cool you I mean I'm if if you in New York not time 10 you do know who I am so you know I believe it was a bit of that but God bless man hopefully that they all right hopefully the old man um cool you dig like are you spiritual cuz you mentioned God a lot man yeah I'm very spiritual very spiritual very spiritual I've been my whole family is spiritual and what does that mean in an American sense cuz um us as African for me it means a lot of different things um I was told what the church was as a young age as they drag you to church every Sunday your grandmother your moms and your family and things like that and you really don't understand what that is from that young but as you get older and you go through certain things and you make it through certain things you understand that there is a God and everybody has a relationship with their God different and sometimes going to church doesn't mean that you love your God any less or he loves you any less you dig and you say spiritual I'm very spiritual I say my prayers as much as I can sometime two three four times in a day you dig man doesn't take away from what I do and who I am because I'm still in the line for everything else everybody is in but I know every day that I'm able to wake up and every day I'm able to make a dollar and every day I'm able to keep living the life that I am I should be thankful you heard cuz that's not just me that's a higher vibration that's definitely a God you dig and I'm well aware that I've escaped many things in life that Lord knows I should not be here but then again I should be here cuz he put here for a reason he gives his toughest battles to his strongest people what the Bible say you heard and I've made it through some very tough battles which are minimal to some of the people that I had next to me in their battles you know what I mean so it's like we all got to figure it out Jim Jones thank you so much man and thanks to God for bringing you here man definitely I appreciate for making time for us bro thank you man we appreciate you tired when you got you I appreciate the fact that you could even make it man got any last question yeah man bro you said you've gone through some tough battles and you mentioned how you lost your dad at like 26 but also that you you pretty much raised yourself from the age of 15 you know from that relationship or lack of it like has it affected how you father your children 100% this made me the best father I could be but me my relationship with my father was always a great one even though he wasn't there because every day he wasn't I love them even more I wasn't one of them kids that was bitter you dig I understand that everybody went through something and at that age what he was going through there was a lot of drug addiction and I knew that from a very young age I understood what drugs was and how they were tearing up my family I never held that against my father and I was just blessed able to get back with him before he passed away so he could see that his son was making something out of himself at that time I was already signed to her uh we think we just got the Rockefeller deal so it was a very big deal for me to be able to get back with my father to show him that me somebody that you should be proud of and I know him looking down right now got be like damn I did that so you know and that's how I feel but then in turn TR here my son I don't you know I mean like I just you know mean I pride myself on making sure that I I turned my son into somebody that was way better than I could ever be you oh man yeah that's my guy shout out to you man is your son still wearing Crocs to you br he's a Croc guy you heard yeah Crocs for Life bro Crocs for Life jumping out the beam with a fresh paer Crocs on I don't want to stand him Jimmy before you go your top five rappers all time my top five rappers of all you got to give us your top five bro yeah Tupac definitely Jay-Z Drake um Drake he not like us by default of course um rock cam no Eminem No No whoa not even big you from NY and not to take nothing away from him he's extremely nice it's retardedly nice when it comes to rap but I listen to artists that kind of you know I mean do something for the life that I live and kind of what I've been through and most of these artist or artist that I'm talking about people that you know what I mean like [ __ ] better stop hating on my boy Drake all of a sudden all this Drake land I get it I get it you ain't like us let's not do that let's not forget the 15 years he been spanking [ __ ] around this [ __ ] all all all over this [ __ ] all the alley he been giving most of these artists that are now seeming to be turning on them let's you know let's not some of them gave him their best hits let's not forget the big picture here and [ __ ] like but what the hip-hop culture and this game is built on competition so I yeah but what is he with it you heard you better put your best foot forward but what has Drake given back to the culture oh that you so love here we go um what is he giving back to the culture I seen him take a lot of people on tour and turn them even richer than they already was I I seen him give a lot of people hits that they would have never had if he wouldn't have got on a record things for the culture that wouldn't have happened in turn records that we would have never knew about him to record that the culture love and things like that I mean he's not from here Canada from the hood I don't believe he owes America too much but the monster that give back to where he's from maybe we should ask about what has he done in Canada giving back to his community as opposed to what he giving back to the culture of the United States when this is not where he's from and I think that's the Divide right there now if we talk about what he's done in Canada and if it's not up to par then maybe we can talk about oh you dig but that's I think that's for the people of Canada you dig like yeah cuz but it's the people of America in the hood who made him of course you heard about but that he didn't grw up in America he didn't grew up here you heard so if you was an artist from Africa yeah like boy yeah do you think bnab boy has responsibility what do Niger of United stes n I'm taking it back home bro super duper big yes but that's what people then will call a culture vulture cuz you come into a space you know do what the people of that space do benefit from them is is is you understand what we doing like it's bro it's not because he's not take so he's not taking benab boy is Nigerian it's a Nigerian culture that is now popular in America so Drake took an American culture and enriched himself but what he's saying is that he doesn't owe anything to America cuz he's not from yet right okay right yeah I mean [ __ ] he's got no obligation Fair argument he got no obligation Fair argument yeah like he lived if he lived like I don't I don't that's how I see it you heard like that's how I see it you dig but all these [ __ ] we talking about are filthy filthy filthy rich off the opinions of men you heard what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never but what I'm just trying to tell you is how this game is played yeah you heard yeah geez man the more we talk the more they get paid the loser still gets paid too if there is a loser I don't think there's a loser when they all getting Millions off of this [ __ ] I don't think I mean like and I understand end all be all in the whole circle of it but I'm I've been in this [ __ ] for so long I'm miss you can see the politics of really get you to understand of what's really going on and [ __ ] like that this [ __ ] don't pay me a dollar to talk about it yeah hey man how tight you with Joe Bon he calls us those African guys with numbers oh yeah yeah yeah Jo this my guy buts what's up man he cool yeah he's an instigator definely know how to get under people's skin yeah I've known Joan for so long [ __ ] like that um I'm proud of him put himself in his position a whole new Lane to make a shitload of money um where it stem from the culture this what I'm talking about all the ancillary things that you need to get going on if are a artist of some type of success you got to use that to get where you want look at Joe used his startom and rap no matter what it was to able to finesse a whole new Lane of podcasting that true he's pretty big in damn near one of the forefathers of it from our culture right y'all started before him or after him we started after him but now we have more numbers than him hey doesn't matter no numbers do matter I mean no J and get num I'm cool with that but you won't be never be the considered the forefather of this whole no no no no no no no you dig 100% yeah it's Jo Joan numbers is cool I'm cool with that you get paid and I know what's a race you might be number one you heard yeah yeah but you still never be the forefather always going to have that under him like I've created this Lane for your how I feel about Ling hip hop yeah of course I got that under my belt that's mine y can never say that was yours at all yeah okay how much money you made off of it and [ __ ] like that at the end of the day you it's mine you heard Still My still mine so we always ask anybody any guest that we get on the show in closing what do you want to be remembered as man when it's all said and done I want I want to be remembered I want I want them to know that I gave more than I took because I was able to take a lot in my time amen just like that sh hey man I wish you put me on love and& hip-hop bro they got the African love of Hip Hop they got Jamaican love of Hip Hop they got they got any type of Love of Hip Hop we need the South African love of Hip Hop thanks Jim man shout out thank you bro I appreciate you man thank you we appreciate podcast and chill we out of here man boom peace welcome to Black excellenc do not fear for if you do just sip on some Grand and if you still do ask ourselves what would M [Music] do when they ask you do not fear for if you do just say an TV this is the the medicine of censorship this is the pill which one is that one podcast and chill	family right there appreciate I really mean that that sincerely and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean I I bump in too many people in my life and been across too many people in my journey to actually remember everybody's name but the face and the cause and I mean BR I want to understand right the first time you came up with the concept For Love and Hip Hop where were you what was happening that um that was something like uh me and Christy she had opportunity to do uh her own reality show um and actually fell through and that kind of she was kind of she wanted to do that I can see she was eager about doing that when it fell through kind you know I mean [ __ ] with her mood and [ __ ] like that so so so so so the initial concept what was it was just Chrissy just showing like what's life the initial concept was about she had her own thing going on about a group of women that was supposed to do a reality show had nothing to do with me yeah that [ __ ] fell through she lost that opportunity to end up not going people have been begging me to do reality TV for past couple years at the time and I and you reality TV gold man I refused to do it yeah and then when that happened I	2	6	8	family right there appreciate I really mean that that sincerely and like that you know what I mean I I bump in too many people in my life and been across too many people in my journey to actually remember everybody's name but the face and the cause and I mean BR I want to understand right	the first time you came up with the concept For Love and Hip Hop where were you what was happening that um that was something like uh me and Christy she had opportunity to do uh her own reality show um and actually fell through and that kind of she was kind of she wanted to do that I can see she was eager about doing that when it fell through kind you know I mean	8,6,5	4,3,2	8	6	5	4	3	2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr730VmL-lk	4,054	rr730VmL-lk	2024-06-27 00:00:00	like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano no well Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he showed me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah just understand everybody going there my guy I understand the hate exactly what you're saying yeah bro what's his name I don't it's fine you remember those some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I ain't scared of nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that the dentist yeah dentist got me there what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never [Music] [Music] yo Jimmy you do not look like you want to be here bro like someone forced you to be it's like you have to do that par they're the biggest podcast in Africa you have to be there I never look like I want to be nowhere man you got to part of me but congratulations to yall having the biggest podcast in Africa that that that's very big Africa being one of the biggest continents in the world a lot of people over there shut up man why you so tired bro crazy weekend I've been working all weekend shows different states traveling Planes Trains automobiles you know how I be a little bit too much partying yeah road kill it's tough but what's up how y'all feeling I'm good bro I literally saw um I saw your video uh yesterday for your new single the one you shot in Miami two turn temp yeah yeah how you feel about it bro that [ __ ] is lit man looks like our Vibe bro cuz we've been to Miami myself and and my partner but we never like experienced the Miami night life we were playing in Florida yeah we're DJing in Florida but two South Africans like the diaspora then West Palm Beach as well yeah DJ also yeah like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano what it's a genre it's called a piano no no cuz I'm a piano even you heard like you saw he did the whole Keys thing it has nothing to do with the piano that's where it started but has nothing to do with it these days when when I met charlot man he said the exact same thing he's like oh so you're a podcaster I'm like yeah and then you DJs I'm like no I play I'm a Pian like you're a Pianist man you one talented [ __ ] n it's a genre of music man what kind of genre is that like it's like slowed down house music with a lot of s that African influence that's the only way I can describe it so it's a it's a mix of a marriage house yeah a marriage of house music which originated here at Chicago and stuff and then we slowed it down created a sub genre called guo where guys were sort of rapping but very minimalist raps called guo then the kids were born like in the 2000s late '90s then created a whole meshup of those two genres and it's called Piano cuz a a lot of Americans think it's um afro beats it's not afro beats yeah a lot of the hence I avoided saying afro beats cuz AFR beats is from Nigeria and amap piano is far from afro beat afro beat borrows from am piano now where is amap piano originated from South Africa from the hoods from the Cassis yeah but when I when I was looking at your video bro uh the only thing in my mind was like bro what's a night like out with Jim Jones CU that [ __ ] look lit there [ __ ] everywhere bro um please please describe a night out in Miami with Jim so let's say we going to Miami right now I mean some nice are better than others but been doing it so long it's kind of like the the bare minimum for us to do in Miami just having fun but it still work at the same time like every every I'm I'm not just going out partying for no reason ni like that was we knew what we was kind of getting into we wanted to film a video so we knew we was going to ramp it up a bit take it to the to the highest form going crazy as we could but that actually happened to fall on a big weekend um and one of my dudes was celebrating so everything kind of happened for a reason but yeah Miami could take you for take you for a few a few trips man like okay so so so me and you we get in the car right I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm in Miami I hate you cuz you got a house there you stay there right yeah I got I got I got cribs there so I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm by the strip you know that Miami strip right yeah yeah yeah I mean see that's the thing about Miami when you come to visit Miami that's where people are know at like the strip and things like that I guess stand by Collins and ocean driveing all that people that live there don't really do the strip like that like you just you dig people congregate usually at night time and all the spots that usually go on down there um okay so we got security obviously you got to roll around with security right um yeah I mean that' be the safest thing for me to do so we get out the cut with security when you get to the bouncers are they letting us in cuz it's Jim Jones or are they checking our IDs cuz they've been checking our IDs just to buy beer here bro Che ID everywhere yeah everywhere yeah no I I don't think I produced my ID in since I was a teenager at clubs but yeah you won't need your ID when you with me so we walking in right yeah we going to get in oh do we have a section do we they going to give us a section VIP yeah they going to give us a section we going to get some bottles and let the night ensue got this thing called Power Hour you go to the club maybe like 2:45 to 3:45 in and out no sweat so what's the what's the purpose of that exercise the Power Hour yeah like why would you be in the cloud for an hour why would I be in a club for 4 hours it's Fu I mean I've been part I've been partying since I've been 14 I've been making money to party since I've been 18 I'm kind of burnt out so at this point I try to wait till the club is at the most popping or lest moment which is usually that hour right there and I get to enjoy everything that happened tonight and leave out of there and not be all burnt out what what does your wife say bro cuz you're married man you're surrounded by all these girls like you know I mean I'm going to worry about the women yeah is minimal to the money worry about the money more than anything so so a woman doesn't like give you grief when you come home I yeah you get you get grief all the time if you in a relationship no matter what you do if you had a job on Wall Street you get home you're going to get grief no around it you heard yeah there's women everywhere unless you work in the LGBT Club then you know I mean even there you still going to go home and get like it's no way around it you're going to get you know I mean like yeah so you've never had like been home and you had to explain like yo no man I was just doing music video it's just work like I don't know that good you going to explain yourself in every relationship and things like that I got a good woman at home who understands a job I have and things like that so for the most part but for the most part I'm a very responsible respectable person when when I'm in the streets and when I do have to interact with females and things like that yeah anyway H ladies and gentlemen welcome to another special edition of podcasting chill so CU yeah I am here we're chilling with the [ __ ] Legend Kings of Harlem please make some noise for Jim Jones Jim I gotta say bro I gotta say bro I'm going to be honest with you when I find that your name was GMO geloo gelo I'm like I'm like Jim Jones losing some G points here man what the [ __ ] is that I'm Puerto Rican and a rubian my pops is Puerto Rican the word gelo means William in English is a Spanish Spanish name cuz you know what I was thinking I was thinking that guy who does the show late night you know the short guy who does like the interviews with um this late night comedian man what are the late night shows oh man not uh bad with these oh gosh the late night guy bro uhri or something not Corin O'Brien no not Trevor Noah the other American guy man like uh old new no he's like jimm Kimel Jimmy Kimel jimy he's got that he's got that short guy his name is julo oh I don't I don't I don't got got me messed up I don't even really watch TV like that bro okay I'll be out chasing the money I ain't even got time to do that and if and if I do got some time I'm trying to get a little bit of rest or I'm thinking about money [ __ ] is crucial out here right now you better get to your dollar a lot of [ __ ] about to happen and if you ain't got no coins boy you going to be [ __ ] up you ever been to uh Puerto Rico yeah I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times yeah but business not for the Heritage part of it so like you don't know where like your your your parents were at Familiar of the place where my father's from but I never really got to do the whole go to give with my family understand the roots understand you know I mean like I didn't get to get to that part of it but I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times you find like that's important like to know you it's definitely important I had this um I did an interview not too long ago about um how important the roots are and get to know where my family from know I mean so we'll start to do that pretty soon so so so your dad you know you know your dad right yeah he's passed away oh okay God bless rest in peace what happened to him he passed away yeah like was it um medical thing or yeah natural causes oh damn like when you young or um maybe when I was uh 23 24 oh damn bro SED to hear that man maybe 26 right before my son passed right before my God bless right before my son Bor bro but you like 47 right now I look good for 47y old man no homo you know what I mean thank you very much like what was what's keeping you looking so good is it the yoga yeah a lot of yoga a lot of Pilates I stay in shape um I'm very uh very big on Fitness um work out like five six times a week um it's one of the best ways to stay young and have better chances of living a long life is that why you do it or maybe there's other purpose like you know a lot of people are in gym for their mental health I mean it's very it's very it's very therapeutic I will say that but my main goal is to look good of course but to give me better chances of living forever bro so how you got into rap um I don't know correct me if I'm wrong right but you used to skip church and go to the train station to to rap like no I never skipped Church to go on the train station and rap I skipped Church to go to the train station and go play video games and run the streets and do everything a bad little kid did from the streets of hollow when we was like S8 and n and things like that I don't know if you know about anything about the subway system in New York but that's the pathway system that get you to all five burrows and we definitely was on the subway which maybe we shouldn't have been but we was a little uh loose um for me rapping actually rapping didn't start later on in life to actually uh C and um they I got a deal and things like that and that was the first time me myself really thought about actually raing cuz I'll be honest with you like um dipet I don't really know much about dipet however I know about you guys individually like Cameron old boy like one of my favorite songs uh jul sna had hear that that was Cameron and Jules and jwes he both was on he both old boy and heon yeah why don't you jump on those tracks man those tracks are massive they was already done I was there for the making of both of them incredible tracks yeah and then how did dipit start start like how did you guys start the whole movement um organically kiss him Harem gr up together um talented kids Cam and Mason BL sh was they already was doing music um Everybody gradu graduated high school I didn't get to go to college they went to college they got kicked out they got kicked out they come moved in with me from that that was a uh foundation for them to D into the music you've been in the game for like 20 30 odd years right been in the game for since 1997 how would you describe the different eras of like um hip-hop right especially now cuz um obviously we all know about the Kendrick Lamar song they're not like us but I didn't know how big it was until I landed in in in America and it's like it's like a movement the video yeah it's like huge it's massive bro yeah it's a big record Kendrick did that shout out to Kendrick shout out to my boy Drake but what do you think about like the evolution of hip-hop in all the different areas you've been a part of what do you mean what do I think about it it's a great thing to be a part of something that um you could only dream of everybody doesn't get a chance to be in this game um I've been fortunate enough to be here for so many genres and errors and seen so many people come and go I've watched the smallest artist to the biggest artist who you thow will be here forever and going um I got stories for days I can tell you about um how I feel about it I feel great I feel blessed you know what I mean I feel lucky this [ __ ] don't it's not promised and for me to still be here is definitely a blessing so in the 90s what was the vibe like man like like what in the 90s as far as what in hip-hop yeah it was it was different um 90s was a great era um one of my favorite errors um that was the era we first first came outside um started to get out deal uh very aggressive era uh no social media um cell phones were just being born um everything that you seen you was something that you could grab on to um artists had to go to the towns we couldn't just get on your phone and music you had to go get you couldn't just have access to it so it was a it was it it was a hunt um you had to touch the Tails kiss babies do radio everything like it was just a different ER but who was around like during that time when you who was around like Tupac was did you like meet Tupac Tupac I didn't get to meet Tupac um Tupac passed away what 95 was that yeah right in big in '97 um no I got to see Tupac do a few times in Harlem um that was dope but um not Tupac passed away before we got to get in the record game but I've seen a lot of a lot of artists in my time from a young age to old age we were partying in clubs as teenagers before we even got a record deal and things like that like we were in clubs since high school and [ __ ] like that so any interactions with Big L he was from Harlem right yeah shouts to Big Al Big Al was definitely from Harlem um 139th NFL Big L um I was one of the Cam's uh close friends um actually put cam on a dope record that started to give uh Cam and bloodshed and and her mcgree her was already popping too but guy gave them some notice when it came to R so when you come out like who's who's popping at that time is it git is it mop D it's way before G when we came out I was like Eminem just dropped oh [ __ ] this is Slim Shady not M like Slim Shady I I remember that that was like cam had dropped and Eminem had dropped DMX had dropped Nori had dropped um Big Pun had dropped lud Chris Luda had just started coming out um Nelly Nelly down down baby yeah shouts to coola love um yeah that type of error shouts to shouts to Fat Joe shouts to Buster they was already in it uh Nas was already in it Jay start going crazy that's when he just started taking over with the 1 million 2 million 3 million 4 um yeah very competitive very edgy um lot of the big dogs um had real roots in the streets um especially in the streets of New York so that put that put a real Mystique on everything when it came to the music um all the events with topnotch um it just was a different feel man it was a heavy heavy dope boy era um this was before the drug dealers wanted to be Rappers that's when the rappers wanted to be drug dealers you know what I mean and and that Arrow was was a very dope high impact trenel and Russian it was a was a great error bro I saw an interview you did correct me if I'm wrong I might be paraphrasing but you mentioned a place called the tunnel or something where everybody would be and you guys were [ __ ] [ __ ] in the bathrooms please please describe that manest cuz a place like that couldn't exist right now bro with all this woke [ __ ] I mean yeah and the cancel cult I would say it was probably the greatest Club The Hip hopers have seen and it was during the 90s era it was the Golden Era um in New York they got you had stories about like Studio 54 in that era when everybody used all the biggest of big used to go to Studio 54 well the tunnel was what Studio 54 was to that era to our era and it didn't make so many people and nationalities and genres and just everybody was like a big pumbo all for the sake of the culture you had some of the flyest models to some of the biggest drug dealers biggest gang bangers I mean every former elicit street life you could think of was in the spot along with the biggest artists and rappers and actors and models that you could find into all athletes um it would definitely like that um and was this like per invite or just like anybody could Rock up there nah you couldn't just rock up there for this is '90s entry was like $100 first of all $100 for a club that was the first time we ever heard of it and that was a lot of money back then especially we probably started in '94 going there teenager so $100 was sto a lot of money in New York at the time sneakers wasn't even costing $100 um to get in the club you definitely had to be connected to know somebody or you had to wait on a long line that usually was a block long um they had like an Express line you could pay $100 to get on Express line that'll get you to the door quicker and then you pay your entry fee um streets was blocked off you was a big dog you was able to bring your cars down there I was able to bring like four five of them if I wanted to um yeah the club was just it was different man pull up to the door security they taking people's shoes off they searching your jacket twisting people inside out like they about to go on the Rikers Island I got to I gave security High files I never took my shoes off and not since high school I when we used go in high school we used to get our shoes taken off and things like that make you feel like you going to the cental bookings and [ __ ] like that so what gave you that clout that allowed you to bring four cars in when nobody or you had to be a big dog to bring four cars in when you could just give them a high five instead of removing your shoes and you're young by then like what gives you that CL I was a big dog since a small pup bro J yeah man what gave you those you know credentials at such a young age to suppos all these people cuz Dr Tre was there yeah you putting in four cars not removing shoes I was a good Lord Biden citizen everybody love Jim Jones even even the girls like would you just rock up they say let's go to the bathroom that's it yeah now that well yeah there was a lot of that going on they had a uh the layout was different first of all the club was a block long a whole city block um wow there was like three other four other clubs within the club or spots that look like clubs um the main floor was humongously big the DJ was like a a lifeguard Tower in the middle of the club um you go upstairs they had a VR big V PE upstairs and then go through a door it open up to the bathroom the bathroom was like a unisex Club [ __ ] had a big ass bar in the middle of the bathroom uh bunch of stalls lined up um that [ __ ] was like a hotel inside Lions cocaine everything yeah they was going down a lot of sex was going down there a lot of a lot of drugs was going down in there um yeah the tunnel was definitely uh a landmark to New York City when it comes to the clubs I I definitely um I always think about that club um it did a lot for me in my life um it gave me a lot of imagination when it came to to the culture and the things I was seeing from a young age as to where I want to be and the direction I want to go in yeah we was going there since high school so when you seeing people like Mike Tyson and all these people coming in big cheer on and just having their way as a kid go out got to go to school the next morning you you in school thinking about that [ __ ] like w man this school [ __ ] [ __ ] this school [ __ ] I need some money and I need to go to the tunnel that's all I want to [ __ ] do that's wild man now can you imagine because we in sa right we're looking at all the videos that you guys are pulling out there like we're looking at this lifestyle and then you F Track to 2024 right M and the P didy thing breaks out right I mean i' rather not even to get into that yeah just don't I rather the do I don't you know I mean like it's not it's not my business oh I mean like this you heard God bless it's too much n yeah and it's not me to have an opinion on certain things cuz I ain't perfect I've been through my own [ __ ] in life and I see a lot of people that have even this doing too much just know that I ain't perfect so I choose not to talk on certain [ __ ] that you know what I mean a lot of other people people been talking about I let them keep doing the talk and I got other [ __ ] to work on I'm trying to work on me being a better person yeah I respect I respect that man but were ever part of any gang or like you sounding like the F never hey we don't the F in South Africa man only PS I'm just playing with you yeah I've been affiliated with the bloods in New York City um ENT Tre um yeah so crazy have you ever been to sa like have you ever been to Africa or um I've been to Africa where did you go uh gaban gille damn G to perform there um I went to perform there but uh got some great friends there they actually had ran the country at the time this is before the big yeah yeah overtaking and stuff like that but I had a ball out there I got to go to an island called Pony um that was a dope experience as they took me to the jungles I got to see some of the indigenous people um it was like a a real um life Awakening like and I got to see how also the rich people live out there also like I got to see both sides like that you know what I mean it was it was a great experience I out there for like a week um I haven't been back since but yeah it was dope you never been to South Africa never been to South Africa bro so the reason why I asked that is because like yo bro like American culture has infiltrated South Africa like you can't believe like you know we got people worshiping you guys you know Jim Jones rappers and everything you so we've got rappers who rap just like you and youd say they're like Bloods and Crips but they've never they've never left sa you know cuz that's how influential uh the culture is right but from you when you see or hear that like what do you guys think like do you think is like some [ __ ] like or like leave don't don't follow the gang life you know what I mean oh as far as that is concerned um there's two sides to that this what you do as a gang member that turns it into something that becomes a crime or whatever that end but the Brotherhood part of it is what the most of us joined up for when we coming up in the hood and need that Brotherhood lean on somebody is that type of camaraderie that pretty much stood for and there's a lot of other great attributes that comes with affiliation or you becoming a part of a gang um it gets twisted up because we all come up in these urban communities and our back is against the wall we don't have no opportunities um it's very dormant uh we on top of each other so naturally testosterone testosterone wins in a lot of these situations where these kids find s in bad situations and for that I would tell people to kind of stay away from this type of life um I don't want to oppose my will we all going to experience what we going to experience but I can't tell you the consequences to this type of Lifestyle could be very dear you heard ethal a lot of people don't get to make it where I made it and Escape that lifestyle that could have put me away or could have put me in the dirt I mean so here as a Living testament to tell you that these consequences are terrible the odds on you making it out of that life in a positive manner are very slim I mean but if you are in that life and you taking it as a Brotherhood and try to uplift your brothers I know there's a lot of people around you that are doing a lot of [ __ ] that that that that that's very crazy you know what I mean if you're a part of that and you got the positive minder then you try to uplift your brother and instill some positivity within them because it's very cold out here so I've always been curious bro like so when that when you you you start getting immersed you know or Affiliated in the gang life how does that affect the conversation at home with your parents like your mom your dad and just the domestic you know Dynamics I a't grow my parents I was a grown man since I was like 15 I made my own money since I was like 16 my grandmother left me in high school man I was raising my Sisters by myself in the projects I hustle every I ever got in my life that's why music saved my life I was so grateful to be able to be next to cam and him getting a deal at such a very young age to be able to still be making money off that [ __ ] right now you were U anr for Warner uh music group yeah I was the director of anr for Warner Music Group um years ago uh shouts to Kevin L shouts to Leo Cohen for giving me the opportunity um great opportunity uh I excelled at it extremely very young with a lot of power but didn't understand what I had at hand um didn't have too many people in my corner that were telling me the things that I should have been doing with that type of position as opposed to some type of weird way be hating you know I mean so that's what happened but as you get older you learn you learn and you move on who did you discover while you were in that position uh I would tell you a story I I know I've helped try s uh they come to tra songs that you know today he's always in he's always in we know why no n but he was a young kid at the time and uh they were actually going to cut him from the label we had a big uh um it's like uh one of them uh some events they be doing not the talent shows the uh well was something like that all the artists had to come perform and then they pretty much didn't know that they was on a Cho and block at the time when I was an executive and and he was one of the artists that they were going to cut and I remember Kevin L specifically ask me yo what we should do with him I'm about to cut him I don't know what to do with him and when I heard him uh singing and I saw him perform I was like this is this is one artist you should keep and did that and now we all tra songs on so many dope ass records is it true you could have signed Drake yeah I had a chance to sign uh I had a chance to do business with Drake um through Allan grum blat um when I was doing business at cotch um it was a different era I didn't understand what Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he show me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah understand everybody going at my guy I understand the hate man the hate is so phenomenal it's just how this game go man this game is so tricky man these [ __ ] just like females in this game we ain't going to get into that man there's a lot of uh but wait wait wait so so with Drake like are you are you seeing him perform like try songs or like you just heard of the guy just a conversation Allan called me about signing a kid let me hear some of his music um and I was like the kid know how to rap but I don't know what to do with him his image is crazy and him couple years later heard him on a Wheezy mixtape going crazy I was like wow this kid is about to go wham inside of this business and he sure did and you're know trying to call Weezy like yo man I gotta get that kid or something n he was already signed a young money and jcole did you miss on jcole as well I could have signed J Cole bro jcole was in the studio with me every day and at that point jcole I he's he remind me of a knockoff Drake and not to say it like that but that's who he sounded like he came to my studio every day rapping to these Drake beats rapping like Drake Cadence like Drake he could rap his ass off yeah you heard yeah but it was already a drake out there he had the Caesar it was different like two lightskinn [ __ ] might not K when raing the same but you never know what you got in front of you man you dig and those are lessons I I've took with me to moving forward when I see artists and and I hate artists I always give them more than just hearing just just I got to I got to I gotta try to capture the whole picture I make sure I just don't you mean so I don't miss nothing else because I've missed a few people and I've helped a few people um gain a lot of success in in my time in this industry whether it been by me having a meeting with them or me having influence on them or you know I mean so you know and there's never like any animosity like Jake Cole or Drake never came up to be like yo you could have signed me look at me now bro I mean me and Drake is cool as [ __ ] um I see J Cole I don't think he I mean I don't think that's no he some [ __ ] he might want to keep to himself not to be like that sh the co he not that type of artist he's not a you I mean yeah you did I look I look at as we can see I want to mention an artist who like I'm really fond of like I think this guy's [ __ ] amazing musically talented everything that he touched like turned to Gold who's that uh kid k bro K Cy yeah yeah did you help him with his career yeah I birth K Cy wow J me how so bro bir them nobody would have know who K Cy was at all if I a jump on this remix record but it wasn't even remix he wasn't even a nobody like I tell a story all the time I had a inter used to work for me said he got some dudes that do videos they would like to do a video for me told them come let me see they work they show me their videos the first video they showed me was of the kid Cy record he's on the top of a roof some simple video the record sound more wavy than the opportunity for them to do a video I'm like well if you'll get me the beat to this record I Remix this record and then y'all can shoot the video to that record wow and that's what they did and then um the radio station ripped the record off of YouTube and start playing it at Hot 97 and K Cy was born bro why do you think especially about kid Cy cuz from him when I listen to music right it wasn't really no no other kid Cy record besides the one that I was on yeah man he's not in they don't play his records where I be at at all not to be funny wow bro and we listen to him like all that day and night you know remember only record I know yeah it's the only record I know unless it's like a pop record that everybody know and I and I'm even not paying attention to it but he don't his records don't get played nowhere that i' be at not like that unless I go into a different farm and that's the type of music they playing in one of these funny clubs that play fist pump music and pop music he's not into like you dig like they don't play his music in the clubs I'll be at maybe in Vegas and [ __ ] like that but that's not like they not pumping this [ __ ] in live they not pumping this [ __ ] in Atlanta they not pumping this [ __ ] down the Stafford room or you know what I mean like they I'm not saying nothing like that but I don't hear it in the strip clubs I don't hear like you know what I mean so but he's a very successful person with some of the greats like Kanye to put him in a position to win and [ __ ] like that and I think he's way more better as an actor than he is a musician and that's just my POS that's just my opinion he did I seen him in the movie uh about the race car [ __ ] where he was F the playe like he got a lot of Charisma and [ __ ] like that on on camera for what I could see and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean bro I mean for you as Jim Jones to to see these kids you're introduced to them by an intern and then to hop onto that song it's something selfless you know to just give these unknown kids an opportunity of sharing a song with you where do you think that selflessness comes from how was that unknown kid I'm still an unknown kid anytime I get an opportunity that's an opportunity I should be able to give to somebody else bro the fact that you could even come to our podcast shout out man yeah man you don't even know us exactly what you're saying yeah know us what's his name I don't it's fine you know remember those kids who who did the video for him anyway you know remember I remember like that kids that got the biggest African podcast I'm definitely going to know like them is my guys right family right there appreciate I really mean that that sincerely and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean I I bump in too many people in my life and been across too many people in my journey to actually remember everybody's name but the face and the cause and I mean BR I want to understand right the first time you came up with the concept For Love and Hip Hop where were you what was happening that um that was something like uh me and Christy she had opportunity to do uh her own reality show um and actually fell through and that kind of she was kind of she wanted to do that I can see she was eager about doing that when it fell through kind you know I mean [ __ ] with her mood and [ __ ] like that so so so so so the initial concept what was it was just Chrissy just showing like what's life the initial concept was about she had her own thing going on about a group of women that was supposed to do a reality show had nothing to do with me yeah that [ __ ] fell through she lost that opportunity to end up not going people have been begging me to do reality TV for past couple years at the time and I and you reality TV gold man I refused to do it yeah and then when that happened I was like all right I got I'll do this for you and we'll make it about you and females that have to that are involved with artist such as myself and show what the relationship side is when you're dealing with a high-profile artist and you know what I mean how so that's how that started bro and that thing became a monster super super monster like it's still big till this day bro 100% so do you have like uh ownership in that we we were link a all that you know at that time when maybe the second season we just in a position where we refuse to compromise our dignity for anyone or any dollar and sometimes it be like that you know what I mean um but ain't no stress off my back T my hat to him you no but but but we got to talk about that because you see like this podcast um it's blackowned right it's just me and a couple of other people that are involved in the podcast right and we're always striving for ownership so a lot of um Brands and investors have come to try to buy the podcast and we say know cuz like we believe in ownership and telling the story the way we want to tell it right so what went wrong in that because as a hustler I believe like that's your also end goal MH um it wasn't something that I was just a lot of different layers and [ __ ] like that and I was too worried about doing other things and we had the opportunity to gain all ownership 50% of the whole TV show and all that but it still wasn't worth GE bro that's insane you just let go like that yeah bro it's your brain child bro there is no Love and& Hip Hop without you bro I still got a brain you heard yeah those are for people that don't have a brain that lack creativity people that steal things from you lack what you don't have remember that yeah whether it's money whether it's creativity whatever it is they lack what you don't have ultimately they steal from you you heard I mean we didn't even know C beef if it wasn't for Love and& Hip Hop right yeah yeah yeah definitely yeah bro you gave birth to so many many people man like VI their careers that's the god in me that's why I'm always going to be good yeah she man so any other shows that you're working on like in the pipeline that you want to do I was telling you I working on um a late night show a late night um a late night variety show live in studio audience hopefully we'll be filming in about 40 to 60 days um beautiful concept I do I do believe people going enjoy the show um like I was saying I can't do um a podcast is too personal for me and [ __ ] like that and me watching these podcasts um dealing with these artists me myself don't have the temperament for it you know what I mean um I [ __ ] I T my hat to y'all to have to deal with artists such as myself cuz you never know what type of mood they going to come in you know what I me some of these artists have a air to them where they feel like they better than most and they would never sit and have tea with the with the maintenance guy you heard me myself me going to maintenance guy going to smoke blunts before I get on stage [Music] I live my life and and and currently uh before we let you go man what do you think about the state of hip-hop cuz like statistically numbers wise it's not looking good man e beats has played all over New York now there's now the pianos this is this is what they want you to do this is how to get us to go against each other it's all under the same culture umbrella it's afro music ref I'm a piano I'm a piano explain that what do you mean by that bro yeah R&B what do you mean by that ultimately it's all from under the same origin and creativity of the same person from the same colors is all our thing n but let's be honest Jimmy hip-hop hasn't involved bro when I was listening to Eminem what do you want mean what do you mean hip-hop hasn't evolved you guys are still rapping about the same stuff it don't you you missing the point of what hip-hop is yeah hip-hop has evolved to a point that you can be the music genres that you're told them about can be noticed you think that if there was a hip hop that I'm a piano would be noticed or afro Beach would be noticed think about that and not to take nothing away from y because you always have culture and yes that music might be big within the continent of Africa yeah right but to cross over to American Fame and commercialism you don't think that the hip-hop culture played a big part in that that's that that's a different argument now you want to have a different argument I'm telling you the semantics of where we going with this you dig like you talking about uh the the hip hop music is damn percentage that's how they want us to think when it's really not cuz we all uplifting each other you heard you think that the country music that's going on in the black people winning is not because of the hip-hop culture no no no I think no one is disputing that however so then when you say hip-hop numbers are down and damn for who no I'm talking about I know what you're talking about but damn for who tell me who it's down for because I'm still making the money I make yeah I do believe there's still a lot of artist that's making a shitload of money that they make I don't think it went down for them yeah you know what I mean but I understand what you're talking about they say the numbers and then rock and roll genre might be up like I don't really you heard like that's I'm into this business you heard and it's always up for us you heard cuz this is a business we make money out of nothing it's never a downside to this okay and and that's why I'm saying I think we're having two different conversations here cuz the conversation I'm having is I'm having I'm having right is that in as much as he's saying yeah the numbers are down because they orchestrated and whatever I get that right but also that's why I asked do you think Hip-hop has evolved cuz I grew up on hip-hop right and the same things um quote unquote you guys were rapping about in the '90s how can hipop how can hip hop evolved in the same thing that Africa been Africa been going on since the '90s aren't y going still going through the same thing we are huh we are so how could the music evolve when the music ref the time ah okay get you real stories what you want us to rap about [ __ ] that that we don't have ah we talk about [ __ ] we dream about all the time that's the good The Good Life the colorin the Ros we talk about but the truth is how the music going to change when our position hasn't changed when we still going through the same [ __ ] we've been going through okay and y'all being from Africa should know that more than we know that yeah that's facts that's fact go about that own Cod yeah yeah yeah yeah you know are bro that's a valid fact but how do you feel man like you've come from an era where you guys when what you you said in your raps I mean evolved as far as dition as far as what we rap about cuz we still stuck in the same place but as a business it has evolved to one of big time yeah yeah biggest big time money making machines you can attach yourself to this made some of the richest individuals whether you're the rapper the lawyer the executive like that's true you know what I mean the supply chain but then I think that's why you know when you get the likes of a wz coming out and Kendrick Lamar they stand out like a sore thumb because like they are rapping about but that's what music is about to stand out for those who that want to look like everybody they don't get nowhere why you think Dip set was so successful sucessful yeah because we stood out on purpose we don't want to look like or H or sound like no one else m we want yall to above all see us when we walk in the building and hear us when we get on that [ __ ] mic you heard why would you guys the diplomats I never like where did that come from the diplomats the name the diplomats yeah we diplomats oh ah okay that sounded cool no we diplomats we are Harlem diplomats and we take it as that you heard we go to the Embassy when we land in countries you heard all right okay okay okay I I sort of get that bro so in the business and how you still making money right now like from music just like how is it royalties damn you asking a lot of questions bro no I want to know bro I'm so I've got so many questions I want to ask you bro I'll tell you this music is supposed to be used so you can make as much ancillary dollars as you can because the music ain't promised everybody 15 minutes of fame ranges from a small 15 minutes of fame to a run like we having within that minute the 15 minutes the fame you better do a lot of other things to secure your bag because music is not going to be thing you be able to get paid off forever unless you're the DRS and the J that's not even 1% that's you know what I mean so you think about that so you better have some hustle you better learn how to you better have some business sense you better put your credit in order you better do a few things to secure you if you are artist [ __ ] leverage powerful penda yeah man how do you feel man when these kids these days wrap up about you know trying to act tough and rap about stuff they never done like you guys red about stuff you lived I mean I do believe a lot of these kids are going through a lot of [ __ ] that we went through and then a lot of the kids are talking about [ __ ] that they see but most of the kids are all growing up in the same community that all of that [ __ ] is going on so who tells them they don't have the right to talk about [ __ ] that they're not doing when that's still [ __ ] that they're seeing oh sure Ah that's powerful but the problem I have a problem when they rapping like they did it but they just R from somebody else's Vantage Point understand that but most of these artists that you've seen in the game some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I pretty firm in his in in his music that I'm a believer that he did some of that [ __ ] he can talk about just me I don't know you possibilities are possibilities but some things just seem correct you know mean I can't tell you for sure cuz it is music you know what I mean but some things seem correct [ __ ] man bro you got to come out to man you got to you know we haven't had a proper uh hip-hop concert in sa like since 50 N since you are come on back to the city does concerts man ah those are for old people empd the bigest artist in South Africa right now Hip-Hop Hip-Hop uh there's a guy called nastyc but nesty came here he doesn't know know you f poopa who's that nah F poopa Nigerian West African artist massive he used to pop not now for real still massive bigger than like ber boyo still it's different type of music oh stadiums is 50 60,000 people like what is this following this gu what's his name f poop F poop I don't know him bro he's from Nigeria yeah yeah yeah yeah Nigerian Prett pretty big yeah humongous bro how big was was 50 Cent bro like during his Reign man like how big was 50 Cent [ __ ] retardedly big it wasn't nothing bigger than him was Drake before Drake was dring he was oh [ __ ] he did it like it was like 50 was on a run that he never even touched the club bro like [ __ ] never seen him in the club he only did Arenas I never knew too many artist that just did that you dig like the [ __ ] was super massive every [ __ ] Rec he came out with was was going platinum and I'm just telling you the facts you heard and I always got to speak factual no matter how I feel about a person the [ __ ] was on top Super on top it was no way to knock him off his d i remember Jay-Z dropped the diss track on you did you guys resolve that beef I think you were not happy with him as the president of De jam oh man um we never really had a beef um we had some feuds back and forth through the situations that were going on over other people um and me being who I am I had to hold my ground um but to know that he actually talked about me in multiple of his records mean that I was pretty big in his eyes you dig true true cuz I didn't hear him talk about too many people in his career and if he did talk you talk about you on the record that meant something you know what I mean and I was then so for me that I I I took that like what it was like you dig like yeah J doesn't respond to take the time out to say my name you heard if I'm if I'm not that big of a deal to you you would never ever a am I am I right talk about a person you heard true it's it's a form of respect and ackowledge 100% am I right in saying a lot of [ __ ] are scared of Jay-Z bro cuz we interviewed Dam Ian I don't I don't know I'm not a lot of [ __ ] you heard I'm a man so I couldn't I I couldn't tell you that you heard I ain't scared to nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that that that dentist yeah the dentist got me there you heard you can walk in you could walk we about to fight right now you a dentist walk in you got it you got it like you got it bow down you got it I don't want no smoke let me get out of here M fact word Jimmy before you go man uh what beefs did you have so you had something beef with Jay-Z right no man I just told you we had some feuds stemming from that's beef bro stemming from other things that going on um my problem like it was all part of Us coming up in the game and things were happening we were signing a Rockefeller cam was sign a Rockefeller actually then we got opportunity to Diplomat records um the split between uh Jay and Dame came um artist took sides some took the J side some took the the Dame side which side were you on we was on the Dame side OB Dash yeah Dame Dash that's do you think Dame Dash is misunderstood bro huh you think Dame Dash is misunderstood um too smart for his own good I get that yeah if you had the opportunity again you sometimes being the smartest person in the room could be held against you especially when you want everybody to know that you're the smartest person in the room yeah yeah yeah and I get given a second chance would you still side with Dam never you wouldn't never whoa I never signed a d at all that was no no no like sided with him took his side oh give a second chance I wouldn't have sided with none of them I would we would haveed our [ __ ] business but you learned that with age yeah you heard we had no business butting into that because it wasn't a street beef and this wasn't some [ __ ] that had to do with us ultimately we were holding our [ __ ] down and [ __ ] like that but business-wise if we would if we knew what we knew now we would let them get into that they self y'all can handle that because we got records to put out and music to make and we got our own record label to run you dig and this my hinder what we got going on by us taking sides and that's why I tell people now even when people seeing all the Diplomat [ __ ] like y bro don't don't get in to taking sides with me and my bro because you never know how that might end up and if it end up to a point where we do figure out our situation then I'm looking at you funny now me and you got forever you heard you dig and there are plenty of people that did that and plenty people that didn't and plenty people that showed the same amount of love that he showed to me that it showed to cam when we were going through our imaginary situations and [ __ ] like that cuz it's all imaginary when you know you can figure figure it out now it's a saying that like don't just be in people's business when especially when they've beef and take sides cuz and I I had to learn that a lot I had took me a long time to learn that because of how we come up in the Cod that they supposedly treat us in teach us in the street and [ __ ] like that but sometimes that's not the smallest thing that we can do and then uh push a t did you ever beef with him nah that was some [ __ ] that we was on record um he did some [ __ ] I did some [ __ ] you dig that was it I never followed that I didn't even know did you know there's a pusher T me I ain't got no just know I don't know I know you're from I know you're from Africa and [ __ ] like that but people don't play with me yeah for real and I don't I don't play with people this ain't no playground you heard this is the street it's two ways don't get caught up in a yellow line it's going to be hard to cross bro yeah you heard no I don't trust me I'm from Africa but I saw what happened at the airport so that [ __ ] escalated yeah [ __ ] that was self-defense man God yo bro it looked like that guy was just messing with you bro I wish that could have never happened cuz I was trying to avoid that by all cause but [ __ ] happened sometime man you dig and definitely not not going to allow anybody do anything to me at all bro when I saw that video right like I don't know I just met you today right but I saw when you lifted that guy from the escalator threw him down he literally just went on survival mode bro like it's like there was a button that you switched on and you just like I don't [ __ ] care but yeah yeah no I mean no that's a button that I choose not to push you heard yeah exactly like you can go there quickly I choose to show restraint for a lot of reasons in my life and sometimes it's hard to you dig but where I'm at in life right now I choose positivity or all the other things that come out my way because I know how it is to be negative I was once that negative person that was very aggressive and ready to do something to to you over the minimal alistic of things and [ __ ] like that so I'm blessed to be here to try to be able to show restraint and so so the guy so the guy at the airport you guys on the same plane yeah we on the same plane so you don't have a private jet no I don't have a private jet I'm not a rich man come on Jimmy you made so much money over the years but anyway so you're in the plane what's he what's this guy saying to you like um I don't know man just [ __ ] happens I know just the started from the plane just know that what you see happen on so it starts on the plane you restrain yourself you're like all right cool my dog say whatever you want to say yeah when he gets to the airport I mean the escalator that's when I think he starts hitting you or something right yeah something like that he tried to do something like that and that's what we see man but like I said this is not something that I want to glorify it's not you think he knows who you are um if if he didn't he know now no I'm I'm sorry see sorry cuz some people just provoke I believe he was he was trolling a little bit and things like that which is cool you I mean I'm if if you in New York not time 10 you do know who I am so you know I believe it was a bit of that but God bless man hopefully that they all right hopefully the old man um cool you dig like are you spiritual cuz you mentioned God a lot man yeah I'm very spiritual very spiritual very spiritual I've been my whole family is spiritual and what does that mean in an American sense cuz um us as African for me it means a lot of different things um I was told what the church was as a young age as they drag you to church every Sunday your grandmother your moms and your family and things like that and you really don't understand what that is from that young but as you get older and you go through certain things and you make it through certain things you understand that there is a God and everybody has a relationship with their God different and sometimes going to church doesn't mean that you love your God any less or he loves you any less you dig and you say spiritual I'm very spiritual I say my prayers as much as I can sometime two three four times in a day you dig man doesn't take away from what I do and who I am because I'm still in the line for everything else everybody is in but I know every day that I'm able to wake up and every day I'm able to make a dollar and every day I'm able to keep living the life that I am I should be thankful you heard cuz that's not just me that's a higher vibration that's definitely a God you dig and I'm well aware that I've escaped many things in life that Lord knows I should not be here but then again I should be here cuz he put here for a reason he gives his toughest battles to his strongest people what the Bible say you heard and I've made it through some very tough battles which are minimal to some of the people that I had next to me in their battles you know what I mean so it's like we all got to figure it out Jim Jones thank you so much man and thanks to God for bringing you here man definitely I appreciate for making time for us bro thank you man we appreciate you tired when you got you I appreciate the fact that you could even make it man got any last question yeah man bro you said you've gone through some tough battles and you mentioned how you lost your dad at like 26 but also that you you pretty much raised yourself from the age of 15 you know from that relationship or lack of it like has it affected how you father your children 100% this made me the best father I could be but me my relationship with my father was always a great one even though he wasn't there because every day he wasn't I love them even more I wasn't one of them kids that was bitter you dig I understand that everybody went through something and at that age what he was going through there was a lot of drug addiction and I knew that from a very young age I understood what drugs was and how they were tearing up my family I never held that against my father and I was just blessed able to get back with him before he passed away so he could see that his son was making something out of himself at that time I was already signed to her uh we think we just got the Rockefeller deal so it was a very big deal for me to be able to get back with my father to show him that me somebody that you should be proud of and I know him looking down right now got be like damn I did that so you know and that's how I feel but then in turn TR here my son I don't you know I mean like I just you know mean I pride myself on making sure that I I turned my son into somebody that was way better than I could ever be you oh man yeah that's my guy shout out to you man is your son still wearing Crocs to you br he's a Croc guy you heard yeah Crocs for Life bro Crocs for Life jumping out the beam with a fresh paer Crocs on I don't want to stand him Jimmy before you go your top five rappers all time my top five rappers of all you got to give us your top five bro yeah Tupac definitely Jay-Z Drake um Drake he not like us by default of course um rock cam no Eminem No No whoa not even big you from NY and not to take nothing away from him he's extremely nice it's retardedly nice when it comes to rap but I listen to artists that kind of you know I mean do something for the life that I live and kind of what I've been through and most of these artist or artist that I'm talking about people that you know what I mean like [ __ ] better stop hating on my boy Drake all of a sudden all this Drake land I get it I get it you ain't like us let's not do that let's not forget the 15 years he been spanking [ __ ] around this [ __ ] all all all over this [ __ ] all the alley he been giving most of these artists that are now seeming to be turning on them let's you know let's not some of them gave him their best hits let's not forget the big picture here and [ __ ] like but what the hip-hop culture and this game is built on competition so I yeah but what is he with it you heard you better put your best foot forward but what has Drake given back to the culture oh that you so love here we go um what is he giving back to the culture I seen him take a lot of people on tour and turn them even richer than they already was I I seen him give a lot of people hits that they would have never had if he wouldn't have got on a record things for the culture that wouldn't have happened in turn records that we would have never knew about him to record that the culture love and things like that I mean he's not from here Canada from the hood I don't believe he owes America too much but the monster that give back to where he's from maybe we should ask about what has he done in Canada giving back to his community as opposed to what he giving back to the culture of the United States when this is not where he's from and I think that's the Divide right there now if we talk about what he's done in Canada and if it's not up to par then maybe we can talk about oh you dig but that's I think that's for the people of Canada you dig like yeah cuz but it's the people of America in the hood who made him of course you heard about but that he didn't grw up in America he didn't grew up here you heard so if you was an artist from Africa yeah like boy yeah do you think bnab boy has responsibility what do Niger of United stes n I'm taking it back home bro super duper big yes but that's what people then will call a culture vulture cuz you come into a space you know do what the people of that space do benefit from them is is is you understand what we doing like it's bro it's not because he's not take so he's not taking benab boy is Nigerian it's a Nigerian culture that is now popular in America so Drake took an American culture and enriched himself but what he's saying is that he doesn't owe anything to America cuz he's not from yet right okay right yeah I mean [ __ ] he's got no obligation Fair argument he got no obligation Fair argument yeah like he lived if he lived like I don't I don't that's how I see it you heard like that's how I see it you dig but all these [ __ ] we talking about are filthy filthy filthy rich off the opinions of men you heard what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never but what I'm just trying to tell you is how this game is played yeah you heard yeah geez man the more we talk the more they get paid the loser still gets paid too if there is a loser I don't think there's a loser when they all getting Millions off of this [ __ ] I don't think I mean like and I understand end all be all in the whole circle of it but I'm I've been in this [ __ ] for so long I'm miss you can see the politics of really get you to understand of what's really going on and [ __ ] like that this [ __ ] don't pay me a dollar to talk about it yeah hey man how tight you with Joe Bon he calls us those African guys with numbers oh yeah yeah yeah Jo this my guy buts what's up man he cool yeah he's an instigator definely know how to get under people's skin yeah I've known Joan for so long [ __ ] like that um I'm proud of him put himself in his position a whole new Lane to make a shitload of money um where it stem from the culture this what I'm talking about all the ancillary things that you need to get going on if are a artist of some type of success you got to use that to get where you want look at Joe used his startom and rap no matter what it was to able to finesse a whole new Lane of podcasting that true he's pretty big in damn near one of the forefathers of it from our culture right y'all started before him or after him we started after him but now we have more numbers than him hey doesn't matter no numbers do matter I mean no J and get num I'm cool with that but you won't be never be the considered the forefather of this whole no no no no no no no you dig 100% yeah it's Jo Joan numbers is cool I'm cool with that you get paid and I know what's a race you might be number one you heard yeah yeah but you still never be the forefather always going to have that under him like I've created this Lane for your how I feel about Ling hip hop yeah of course I got that under my belt that's mine y can never say that was yours at all yeah okay how much money you made off of it and [ __ ] like that at the end of the day you it's mine you heard Still My still mine so we always ask anybody any guest that we get on the show in closing what do you want to be remembered as man when it's all said and done I want I want to be remembered I want I want them to know that I gave more than I took because I was able to take a lot in my time amen just like that sh hey man I wish you put me on love and& hip-hop bro they got the African love of Hip Hop they got Jamaican love of Hip Hop they got they got any type of Love of Hip Hop we need the South African love of Hip Hop thanks Jim man shout out thank you bro I appreciate you man thank you we appreciate podcast and chill we out of here man boom peace welcome to Black excellenc do not fear for if you do just sip on some Grand and if you still do ask ourselves what would M [Music] do when they ask you do not fear for if you do just say an TV this is the the medicine of censorship this is the pill which one is that one podcast and chill	a lot of different layers and [ __ ] like that and I was too worried about doing other things and we had the opportunity to gain all ownership 50% of the whole TV show and all that but it still wasn't worth GE bro that's insane you just let go like that yeah bro it's your brain child bro there is no Love and& Hip Hop without you bro I still got a brain you heard yeah those are for people that don't have a brain that lack creativity people that steal things from you lack what you don't have remember that yeah whether it's money whether it's creativity whatever it is they lack what you don't have ultimately they steal from you you heard I mean we didn't even know C beef if it wasn't for Love and& Hip Hop right yeah yeah yeah definitely yeah bro you gave birth to so many many people man like VI their careers that's the god in me that's why I'm always going to be good yeah she man so any other shows that you're working on like in the pipeline that you want to do I was telling you I working on um a late night show a late night um a late night variety show live in studio audience hopefully we'll be filming in about 40 to 60 days um beautiful concept I do I do believe people going enjoy the show um like I was saying I can't	8	6	8	a lot of different layers and [ __ ] like that and I was too worried about doing other things and we had the opportunity to gain all ownership 50% of the whole TV show and all that but it still wasn't worth GE bro that's insane you just let go like that yeah bro it's your brain child bro there is no Love and& Hip Hop without you bro I still got a brain you heard yeah those are for people that don't have a brain that lack creativity people that steal things from you lack what you don't have remember that yeah whether it's money whether it's creativity whatever it is they lack what you don't have ultimately they steal from you you heard I mean we didn't even know C beef if it wasn't for Love and& Hip Hop right yeah yeah yeah definitely yeah bro you gave birth to so many many people man like VI their careers that's the god in me that's why I'm always going to be good yeah she man so any other shows that you're working on like in the pipeline that you want to do	I was telling you I working on um a late night show a late night um a late night variety show live in studio audience hopefully we'll be filming in about 40 to 60 days um beautiful concept I do I do believe people going enjoy the show um like I was saying I can't	4,6,8	7,3,5	4	6	8	7	3	5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr730VmL-lk	4,054	rr730VmL-lk	2024-06-27 00:00:00	like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano no well Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he showed me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah just understand everybody going there my guy I understand the hate exactly what you're saying yeah bro what's his name I don't it's fine you remember those some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I ain't scared of nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that the dentist yeah dentist got me there what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never [Music] [Music] yo Jimmy you do not look like you want to be here bro like someone forced you to be it's like you have to do that par they're the biggest podcast in Africa you have to be there I never look like I want to be nowhere man you got to part of me but congratulations to yall having the biggest podcast in Africa that that that's very big Africa being one of the biggest continents in the world a lot of people over there shut up man why you so tired bro crazy weekend I've been working all weekend shows different states traveling Planes Trains automobiles you know how I be a little bit too much partying yeah road kill it's tough but what's up how y'all feeling I'm good bro I literally saw um I saw your video uh yesterday for your new single the one you shot in Miami two turn temp yeah yeah how you feel about it bro that [ __ ] is lit man looks like our Vibe bro cuz we've been to Miami myself and and my partner but we never like experienced the Miami night life we were playing in Florida yeah we're DJing in Florida but two South Africans like the diaspora then West Palm Beach as well yeah DJ also yeah like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano what it's a genre it's called a piano no no cuz I'm a piano even you heard like you saw he did the whole Keys thing it has nothing to do with the piano that's where it started but has nothing to do with it these days when when I met charlot man he said the exact same thing he's like oh so you're a podcaster I'm like yeah and then you DJs I'm like no I play I'm a Pian like you're a Pianist man you one talented [ __ ] n it's a genre of music man what kind of genre is that like it's like slowed down house music with a lot of s that African influence that's the only way I can describe it so it's a it's a mix of a marriage house yeah a marriage of house music which originated here at Chicago and stuff and then we slowed it down created a sub genre called guo where guys were sort of rapping but very minimalist raps called guo then the kids were born like in the 2000s late '90s then created a whole meshup of those two genres and it's called Piano cuz a a lot of Americans think it's um afro beats it's not afro beats yeah a lot of the hence I avoided saying afro beats cuz AFR beats is from Nigeria and amap piano is far from afro beat afro beat borrows from am piano now where is amap piano originated from South Africa from the hoods from the Cassis yeah but when I when I was looking at your video bro uh the only thing in my mind was like bro what's a night like out with Jim Jones CU that [ __ ] look lit there [ __ ] everywhere bro um please please describe a night out in Miami with Jim so let's say we going to Miami right now I mean some nice are better than others but been doing it so long it's kind of like the the bare minimum for us to do in Miami just having fun but it still work at the same time like every every I'm I'm not just going out partying for no reason ni like that was we knew what we was kind of getting into we wanted to film a video so we knew we was going to ramp it up a bit take it to the to the highest form going crazy as we could but that actually happened to fall on a big weekend um and one of my dudes was celebrating so everything kind of happened for a reason but yeah Miami could take you for take you for a few a few trips man like okay so so so me and you we get in the car right I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm in Miami I hate you cuz you got a house there you stay there right yeah I got I got I got cribs there so I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm by the strip you know that Miami strip right yeah yeah yeah I mean see that's the thing about Miami when you come to visit Miami that's where people are know at like the strip and things like that I guess stand by Collins and ocean driveing all that people that live there don't really do the strip like that like you just you dig people congregate usually at night time and all the spots that usually go on down there um okay so we got security obviously you got to roll around with security right um yeah I mean that' be the safest thing for me to do so we get out the cut with security when you get to the bouncers are they letting us in cuz it's Jim Jones or are they checking our IDs cuz they've been checking our IDs just to buy beer here bro Che ID everywhere yeah everywhere yeah no I I don't think I produced my ID in since I was a teenager at clubs but yeah you won't need your ID when you with me so we walking in right yeah we going to get in oh do we have a section do we they going to give us a section VIP yeah they going to give us a section we going to get some bottles and let the night ensue got this thing called Power Hour you go to the club maybe like 2:45 to 3:45 in and out no sweat so what's the what's the purpose of that exercise the Power Hour yeah like why would you be in the cloud for an hour why would I be in a club for 4 hours it's Fu I mean I've been part I've been partying since I've been 14 I've been making money to party since I've been 18 I'm kind of burnt out so at this point I try to wait till the club is at the most popping or lest moment which is usually that hour right there and I get to enjoy everything that happened tonight and leave out of there and not be all burnt out what what does your wife say bro cuz you're married man you're surrounded by all these girls like you know I mean I'm going to worry about the women yeah is minimal to the money worry about the money more than anything so so a woman doesn't like give you grief when you come home I yeah you get you get grief all the time if you in a relationship no matter what you do if you had a job on Wall Street you get home you're going to get grief no around it you heard yeah there's women everywhere unless you work in the LGBT Club then you know I mean even there you still going to go home and get like it's no way around it you're going to get you know I mean like yeah so you've never had like been home and you had to explain like yo no man I was just doing music video it's just work like I don't know that good you going to explain yourself in every relationship and things like that I got a good woman at home who understands a job I have and things like that so for the most part but for the most part I'm a very responsible respectable person when when I'm in the streets and when I do have to interact with females and things like that yeah anyway H ladies and gentlemen welcome to another special edition of podcasting chill so CU yeah I am here we're chilling with the [ __ ] Legend Kings of Harlem please make some noise for Jim Jones Jim I gotta say bro I gotta say bro I'm going to be honest with you when I find that your name was GMO geloo gelo I'm like I'm like Jim Jones losing some G points here man what the [ __ ] is that I'm Puerto Rican and a rubian my pops is Puerto Rican the word gelo means William in English is a Spanish Spanish name cuz you know what I was thinking I was thinking that guy who does the show late night you know the short guy who does like the interviews with um this late night comedian man what are the late night shows oh man not uh bad with these oh gosh the late night guy bro uhri or something not Corin O'Brien no not Trevor Noah the other American guy man like uh old new no he's like jimm Kimel Jimmy Kimel jimy he's got that he's got that short guy his name is julo oh I don't I don't I don't got got me messed up I don't even really watch TV like that bro okay I'll be out chasing the money I ain't even got time to do that and if and if I do got some time I'm trying to get a little bit of rest or I'm thinking about money [ __ ] is crucial out here right now you better get to your dollar a lot of [ __ ] about to happen and if you ain't got no coins boy you going to be [ __ ] up you ever been to uh Puerto Rico yeah I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times yeah but business not for the Heritage part of it so like you don't know where like your your your parents were at Familiar of the place where my father's from but I never really got to do the whole go to give with my family understand the roots understand you know I mean like I didn't get to get to that part of it but I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times you find like that's important like to know you it's definitely important I had this um I did an interview not too long ago about um how important the roots are and get to know where my family from know I mean so we'll start to do that pretty soon so so so your dad you know you know your dad right yeah he's passed away oh okay God bless rest in peace what happened to him he passed away yeah like was it um medical thing or yeah natural causes oh damn like when you young or um maybe when I was uh 23 24 oh damn bro SED to hear that man maybe 26 right before my son passed right before my God bless right before my son Bor bro but you like 47 right now I look good for 47y old man no homo you know what I mean thank you very much like what was what's keeping you looking so good is it the yoga yeah a lot of yoga a lot of Pilates I stay in shape um I'm very uh very big on Fitness um work out like five six times a week um it's one of the best ways to stay young and have better chances of living a long life is that why you do it or maybe there's other purpose like you know a lot of people are in gym for their mental health I mean it's very it's very it's very therapeutic I will say that but my main goal is to look good of course but to give me better chances of living forever bro so how you got into rap um I don't know correct me if I'm wrong right but you used to skip church and go to the train station to to rap like no I never skipped Church to go on the train station and rap I skipped Church to go to the train station and go play video games and run the streets and do everything a bad little kid did from the streets of hollow when we was like S8 and n and things like that I don't know if you know about anything about the subway system in New York but that's the pathway system that get you to all five burrows and we definitely was on the subway which maybe we shouldn't have been but we was a little uh loose um for me rapping actually rapping didn't start later on in life to actually uh C and um they I got a deal and things like that and that was the first time me myself really thought about actually raing cuz I'll be honest with you like um dipet I don't really know much about dipet however I know about you guys individually like Cameron old boy like one of my favorite songs uh jul sna had hear that that was Cameron and Jules and jwes he both was on he both old boy and heon yeah why don't you jump on those tracks man those tracks are massive they was already done I was there for the making of both of them incredible tracks yeah and then how did dipit start start like how did you guys start the whole movement um organically kiss him Harem gr up together um talented kids Cam and Mason BL sh was they already was doing music um Everybody gradu graduated high school I didn't get to go to college they went to college they got kicked out they got kicked out they come moved in with me from that that was a uh foundation for them to D into the music you've been in the game for like 20 30 odd years right been in the game for since 1997 how would you describe the different eras of like um hip-hop right especially now cuz um obviously we all know about the Kendrick Lamar song they're not like us but I didn't know how big it was until I landed in in in America and it's like it's like a movement the video yeah it's like huge it's massive bro yeah it's a big record Kendrick did that shout out to Kendrick shout out to my boy Drake but what do you think about like the evolution of hip-hop in all the different areas you've been a part of what do you mean what do I think about it it's a great thing to be a part of something that um you could only dream of everybody doesn't get a chance to be in this game um I've been fortunate enough to be here for so many genres and errors and seen so many people come and go I've watched the smallest artist to the biggest artist who you thow will be here forever and going um I got stories for days I can tell you about um how I feel about it I feel great I feel blessed you know what I mean I feel lucky this [ __ ] don't it's not promised and for me to still be here is definitely a blessing so in the 90s what was the vibe like man like like what in the 90s as far as what in hip-hop yeah it was it was different um 90s was a great era um one of my favorite errors um that was the era we first first came outside um started to get out deal uh very aggressive era uh no social media um cell phones were just being born um everything that you seen you was something that you could grab on to um artists had to go to the towns we couldn't just get on your phone and music you had to go get you couldn't just have access to it so it was a it was it it was a hunt um you had to touch the Tails kiss babies do radio everything like it was just a different ER but who was around like during that time when you who was around like Tupac was did you like meet Tupac Tupac I didn't get to meet Tupac um Tupac passed away what 95 was that yeah right in big in '97 um no I got to see Tupac do a few times in Harlem um that was dope but um not Tupac passed away before we got to get in the record game but I've seen a lot of a lot of artists in my time from a young age to old age we were partying in clubs as teenagers before we even got a record deal and things like that like we were in clubs since high school and [ __ ] like that so any interactions with Big L he was from Harlem right yeah shouts to Big Al Big Al was definitely from Harlem um 139th NFL Big L um I was one of the Cam's uh close friends um actually put cam on a dope record that started to give uh Cam and bloodshed and and her mcgree her was already popping too but guy gave them some notice when it came to R so when you come out like who's who's popping at that time is it git is it mop D it's way before G when we came out I was like Eminem just dropped oh [ __ ] this is Slim Shady not M like Slim Shady I I remember that that was like cam had dropped and Eminem had dropped DMX had dropped Nori had dropped um Big Pun had dropped lud Chris Luda had just started coming out um Nelly Nelly down down baby yeah shouts to coola love um yeah that type of error shouts to shouts to Fat Joe shouts to Buster they was already in it uh Nas was already in it Jay start going crazy that's when he just started taking over with the 1 million 2 million 3 million 4 um yeah very competitive very edgy um lot of the big dogs um had real roots in the streets um especially in the streets of New York so that put that put a real Mystique on everything when it came to the music um all the events with topnotch um it just was a different feel man it was a heavy heavy dope boy era um this was before the drug dealers wanted to be Rappers that's when the rappers wanted to be drug dealers you know what I mean and and that Arrow was was a very dope high impact trenel and Russian it was a was a great error bro I saw an interview you did correct me if I'm wrong I might be paraphrasing but you mentioned a place called the tunnel or something where everybody would be and you guys were [ __ ] [ __ ] in the bathrooms please please describe that manest cuz a place like that couldn't exist right now bro with all this woke [ __ ] I mean yeah and the cancel cult I would say it was probably the greatest Club The Hip hopers have seen and it was during the 90s era it was the Golden Era um in New York they got you had stories about like Studio 54 in that era when everybody used all the biggest of big used to go to Studio 54 well the tunnel was what Studio 54 was to that era to our era and it didn't make so many people and nationalities and genres and just everybody was like a big pumbo all for the sake of the culture you had some of the flyest models to some of the biggest drug dealers biggest gang bangers I mean every former elicit street life you could think of was in the spot along with the biggest artists and rappers and actors and models that you could find into all athletes um it would definitely like that um and was this like per invite or just like anybody could Rock up there nah you couldn't just rock up there for this is '90s entry was like $100 first of all $100 for a club that was the first time we ever heard of it and that was a lot of money back then especially we probably started in '94 going there teenager so $100 was sto a lot of money in New York at the time sneakers wasn't even costing $100 um to get in the club you definitely had to be connected to know somebody or you had to wait on a long line that usually was a block long um they had like an Express line you could pay $100 to get on Express line that'll get you to the door quicker and then you pay your entry fee um streets was blocked off you was a big dog you was able to bring your cars down there I was able to bring like four five of them if I wanted to um yeah the club was just it was different man pull up to the door security they taking people's shoes off they searching your jacket twisting people inside out like they about to go on the Rikers Island I got to I gave security High files I never took my shoes off and not since high school I when we used go in high school we used to get our shoes taken off and things like that make you feel like you going to the cental bookings and [ __ ] like that so what gave you that clout that allowed you to bring four cars in when nobody or you had to be a big dog to bring four cars in when you could just give them a high five instead of removing your shoes and you're young by then like what gives you that CL I was a big dog since a small pup bro J yeah man what gave you those you know credentials at such a young age to suppos all these people cuz Dr Tre was there yeah you putting in four cars not removing shoes I was a good Lord Biden citizen everybody love Jim Jones even even the girls like would you just rock up they say let's go to the bathroom that's it yeah now that well yeah there was a lot of that going on they had a uh the layout was different first of all the club was a block long a whole city block um wow there was like three other four other clubs within the club or spots that look like clubs um the main floor was humongously big the DJ was like a a lifeguard Tower in the middle of the club um you go upstairs they had a VR big V PE upstairs and then go through a door it open up to the bathroom the bathroom was like a unisex Club [ __ ] had a big ass bar in the middle of the bathroom uh bunch of stalls lined up um that [ __ ] was like a hotel inside Lions cocaine everything yeah they was going down a lot of sex was going down there a lot of a lot of drugs was going down in there um yeah the tunnel was definitely uh a landmark to New York City when it comes to the clubs I I definitely um I always think about that club um it did a lot for me in my life um it gave me a lot of imagination when it came to to the culture and the things I was seeing from a young age as to where I want to be and the direction I want to go in yeah we was going there since high school so when you seeing people like Mike Tyson and all these people coming in big cheer on and just having their way as a kid go out got to go to school the next morning you you in school thinking about that [ __ ] like w man this school [ __ ] [ __ ] this school [ __ ] I need some money and I need to go to the tunnel that's all I want to [ __ ] do that's wild man now can you imagine because we in sa right we're looking at all the videos that you guys are pulling out there like we're looking at this lifestyle and then you F Track to 2024 right M and the P didy thing breaks out right I mean i' rather not even to get into that yeah just don't I rather the do I don't you know I mean like it's not it's not my business oh I mean like this you heard God bless it's too much n yeah and it's not me to have an opinion on certain things cuz I ain't perfect I've been through my own [ __ ] in life and I see a lot of people that have even this doing too much just know that I ain't perfect so I choose not to talk on certain [ __ ] that you know what I mean a lot of other people people been talking about I let them keep doing the talk and I got other [ __ ] to work on I'm trying to work on me being a better person yeah I respect I respect that man but were ever part of any gang or like you sounding like the F never hey we don't the F in South Africa man only PS I'm just playing with you yeah I've been affiliated with the bloods in New York City um ENT Tre um yeah so crazy have you ever been to sa like have you ever been to Africa or um I've been to Africa where did you go uh gaban gille damn G to perform there um I went to perform there but uh got some great friends there they actually had ran the country at the time this is before the big yeah yeah overtaking and stuff like that but I had a ball out there I got to go to an island called Pony um that was a dope experience as they took me to the jungles I got to see some of the indigenous people um it was like a a real um life Awakening like and I got to see how also the rich people live out there also like I got to see both sides like that you know what I mean it was it was a great experience I out there for like a week um I haven't been back since but yeah it was dope you never been to South Africa never been to South Africa bro so the reason why I asked that is because like yo bro like American culture has infiltrated South Africa like you can't believe like you know we got people worshiping you guys you know Jim Jones rappers and everything you so we've got rappers who rap just like you and youd say they're like Bloods and Crips but they've never they've never left sa you know cuz that's how influential uh the culture is right but from you when you see or hear that like what do you guys think like do you think is like some [ __ ] like or like leave don't don't follow the gang life you know what I mean oh as far as that is concerned um there's two sides to that this what you do as a gang member that turns it into something that becomes a crime or whatever that end but the Brotherhood part of it is what the most of us joined up for when we coming up in the hood and need that Brotherhood lean on somebody is that type of camaraderie that pretty much stood for and there's a lot of other great attributes that comes with affiliation or you becoming a part of a gang um it gets twisted up because we all come up in these urban communities and our back is against the wall we don't have no opportunities um it's very dormant uh we on top of each other so naturally testosterone testosterone wins in a lot of these situations where these kids find s in bad situations and for that I would tell people to kind of stay away from this type of life um I don't want to oppose my will we all going to experience what we going to experience but I can't tell you the consequences to this type of Lifestyle could be very dear you heard ethal a lot of people don't get to make it where I made it and Escape that lifestyle that could have put me away or could have put me in the dirt I mean so here as a Living testament to tell you that these consequences are terrible the odds on you making it out of that life in a positive manner are very slim I mean but if you are in that life and you taking it as a Brotherhood and try to uplift your brothers I know there's a lot of people around you that are doing a lot of [ __ ] that that that that that's very crazy you know what I mean if you're a part of that and you got the positive minder then you try to uplift your brother and instill some positivity within them because it's very cold out here so I've always been curious bro like so when that when you you you start getting immersed you know or Affiliated in the gang life how does that affect the conversation at home with your parents like your mom your dad and just the domestic you know Dynamics I a't grow my parents I was a grown man since I was like 15 I made my own money since I was like 16 my grandmother left me in high school man I was raising my Sisters by myself in the projects I hustle every I ever got in my life that's why music saved my life I was so grateful to be able to be next to cam and him getting a deal at such a very young age to be able to still be making money off that [ __ ] right now you were U anr for Warner uh music group yeah I was the director of anr for Warner Music Group um years ago uh shouts to Kevin L shouts to Leo Cohen for giving me the opportunity um great opportunity uh I excelled at it extremely very young with a lot of power but didn't understand what I had at hand um didn't have too many people in my corner that were telling me the things that I should have been doing with that type of position as opposed to some type of weird way be hating you know I mean so that's what happened but as you get older you learn you learn and you move on who did you discover while you were in that position uh I would tell you a story I I know I've helped try s uh they come to tra songs that you know today he's always in he's always in we know why no n but he was a young kid at the time and uh they were actually going to cut him from the label we had a big uh um it's like uh one of them uh some events they be doing not the talent shows the uh well was something like that all the artists had to come perform and then they pretty much didn't know that they was on a Cho and block at the time when I was an executive and and he was one of the artists that they were going to cut and I remember Kevin L specifically ask me yo what we should do with him I'm about to cut him I don't know what to do with him and when I heard him uh singing and I saw him perform I was like this is this is one artist you should keep and did that and now we all tra songs on so many dope ass records is it true you could have signed Drake yeah I had a chance to sign uh I had a chance to do business with Drake um through Allan grum blat um when I was doing business at cotch um it was a different era I didn't understand what Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he show me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah understand everybody going at my guy I understand the hate man the hate is so phenomenal it's just how this game go man this game is so tricky man these [ __ ] just like females in this game we ain't going to get into that man there's a lot of uh but wait wait wait so so with Drake like are you are you seeing him perform like try songs or like you just heard of the guy just a conversation Allan called me about signing a kid let me hear some of his music um and I was like the kid know how to rap but I don't know what to do with him his image is crazy and him couple years later heard him on a Wheezy mixtape going crazy I was like wow this kid is about to go wham inside of this business and he sure did and you're know trying to call Weezy like yo man I gotta get that kid or something n he was already signed a young money and jcole did you miss on jcole as well I could have signed J Cole bro jcole was in the studio with me every day and at that point jcole I he's he remind me of a knockoff Drake and not to say it like that but that's who he sounded like he came to my studio every day rapping to these Drake beats rapping like Drake Cadence like Drake he could rap his ass off yeah you heard yeah but it was already a drake out there he had the Caesar it was different like two lightskinn [ __ ] might not K when raing the same but you never know what you got in front of you man you dig and those are lessons I I've took with me to moving forward when I see artists and and I hate artists I always give them more than just hearing just just I got to I got to I gotta try to capture the whole picture I make sure I just don't you mean so I don't miss nothing else because I've missed a few people and I've helped a few people um gain a lot of success in in my time in this industry whether it been by me having a meeting with them or me having influence on them or you know I mean so you know and there's never like any animosity like Jake Cole or Drake never came up to be like yo you could have signed me look at me now bro I mean me and Drake is cool as [ __ ] um I see J Cole I don't think he I mean I don't think that's no he some [ __ ] he might want to keep to himself not to be like that sh the co he not that type of artist he's not a you I mean yeah you did I look I look at as we can see I want to mention an artist who like I'm really fond of like I think this guy's [ __ ] amazing musically talented everything that he touched like turned to Gold who's that uh kid k bro K Cy yeah yeah did you help him with his career yeah I birth K Cy wow J me how so bro bir them nobody would have know who K Cy was at all if I a jump on this remix record but it wasn't even remix he wasn't even a nobody like I tell a story all the time I had a inter used to work for me said he got some dudes that do videos they would like to do a video for me told them come let me see they work they show me their videos the first video they showed me was of the kid Cy record he's on the top of a roof some simple video the record sound more wavy than the opportunity for them to do a video I'm like well if you'll get me the beat to this record I Remix this record and then y'all can shoot the video to that record wow and that's what they did and then um the radio station ripped the record off of YouTube and start playing it at Hot 97 and K Cy was born bro why do you think especially about kid Cy cuz from him when I listen to music right it wasn't really no no other kid Cy record besides the one that I was on yeah man he's not in they don't play his records where I be at at all not to be funny wow bro and we listen to him like all that day and night you know remember only record I know yeah it's the only record I know unless it's like a pop record that everybody know and I and I'm even not paying attention to it but he don't his records don't get played nowhere that i' be at not like that unless I go into a different farm and that's the type of music they playing in one of these funny clubs that play fist pump music and pop music he's not into like you dig like they don't play his music in the clubs I'll be at maybe in Vegas and [ __ ] like that but that's not like they not pumping this [ __ ] in live they not pumping this [ __ ] in Atlanta they not pumping this [ __ ] down the Stafford room or you know what I mean like they I'm not saying nothing like that but I don't hear it in the strip clubs I don't hear like you know what I mean so but he's a very successful person with some of the greats like Kanye to put him in a position to win and [ __ ] like that and I think he's way more better as an actor than he is a musician and that's just my POS that's just my opinion he did I seen him in the movie uh about the race car [ __ ] where he was F the playe like he got a lot of Charisma and [ __ ] like that on on camera for what I could see and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean bro I mean for you as Jim Jones to to see these kids you're introduced to them by an intern and then to hop onto that song it's something selfless you know to just give these unknown kids an opportunity of sharing a song with you where do you think that selflessness comes from how was that unknown kid I'm still an unknown kid anytime I get an opportunity that's an opportunity I should be able to give to somebody else bro the fact that you could even come to our podcast shout out man yeah man you don't even know us exactly what you're saying yeah know us what's his name I don't it's fine you know remember those kids who who did the video for him anyway you know remember I remember like that kids that got the biggest African podcast I'm definitely going to know like them is my guys right family right there appreciate I really mean that that sincerely and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean I I bump in too many people in my life and been across too many people in my journey to actually remember everybody's name but the face and the cause and I mean BR I want to understand right the first time you came up with the concept For Love and Hip Hop where were you what was happening that um that was something like uh me and Christy she had opportunity to do uh her own reality show um and actually fell through and that kind of she was kind of she wanted to do that I can see she was eager about doing that when it fell through kind you know I mean [ __ ] with her mood and [ __ ] like that so so so so so the initial concept what was it was just Chrissy just showing like what's life the initial concept was about she had her own thing going on about a group of women that was supposed to do a reality show had nothing to do with me yeah that [ __ ] fell through she lost that opportunity to end up not going people have been begging me to do reality TV for past couple years at the time and I and you reality TV gold man I refused to do it yeah and then when that happened I was like all right I got I'll do this for you and we'll make it about you and females that have to that are involved with artist such as myself and show what the relationship side is when you're dealing with a high-profile artist and you know what I mean how so that's how that started bro and that thing became a monster super super monster like it's still big till this day bro 100% so do you have like uh ownership in that we we were link a all that you know at that time when maybe the second season we just in a position where we refuse to compromise our dignity for anyone or any dollar and sometimes it be like that you know what I mean um but ain't no stress off my back T my hat to him you no but but but we got to talk about that because you see like this podcast um it's blackowned right it's just me and a couple of other people that are involved in the podcast right and we're always striving for ownership so a lot of um Brands and investors have come to try to buy the podcast and we say know cuz like we believe in ownership and telling the story the way we want to tell it right so what went wrong in that because as a hustler I believe like that's your also end goal MH um it wasn't something that I was just a lot of different layers and [ __ ] like that and I was too worried about doing other things and we had the opportunity to gain all ownership 50% of the whole TV show and all that but it still wasn't worth GE bro that's insane you just let go like that yeah bro it's your brain child bro there is no Love and& Hip Hop without you bro I still got a brain you heard yeah those are for people that don't have a brain that lack creativity people that steal things from you lack what you don't have remember that yeah whether it's money whether it's creativity whatever it is they lack what you don't have ultimately they steal from you you heard I mean we didn't even know C beef if it wasn't for Love and& Hip Hop right yeah yeah yeah definitely yeah bro you gave birth to so many many people man like VI their careers that's the god in me that's why I'm always going to be good yeah she man so any other shows that you're working on like in the pipeline that you want to do I was telling you I working on um a late night show a late night um a late night variety show live in studio audience hopefully we'll be filming in about 40 to 60 days um beautiful concept I do I do believe people going enjoy the show um like I was saying I can't do um a podcast is too personal for me and [ __ ] like that and me watching these podcasts um dealing with these artists me myself don't have the temperament for it you know what I mean um I [ __ ] I T my hat to y'all to have to deal with artists such as myself cuz you never know what type of mood they going to come in you know what I me some of these artists have a air to them where they feel like they better than most and they would never sit and have tea with the with the maintenance guy you heard me myself me going to maintenance guy going to smoke blunts before I get on stage [Music] I live my life and and and currently uh before we let you go man what do you think about the state of hip-hop cuz like statistically numbers wise it's not looking good man e beats has played all over New York now there's now the pianos this is this is what they want you to do this is how to get us to go against each other it's all under the same culture umbrella it's afro music ref I'm a piano I'm a piano explain that what do you mean by that bro yeah R&B what do you mean by that ultimately it's all from under the same origin and creativity of the same person from the same colors is all our thing n but let's be honest Jimmy hip-hop hasn't involved bro when I was listening to Eminem what do you want mean what do you mean hip-hop hasn't evolved you guys are still rapping about the same stuff it don't you you missing the point of what hip-hop is yeah hip-hop has evolved to a point that you can be the music genres that you're told them about can be noticed you think that if there was a hip hop that I'm a piano would be noticed or afro Beach would be noticed think about that and not to take nothing away from y because you always have culture and yes that music might be big within the continent of Africa yeah right but to cross over to American Fame and commercialism you don't think that the hip-hop culture played a big part in that that's that that's a different argument now you want to have a different argument I'm telling you the semantics of where we going with this you dig like you talking about uh the the hip hop music is damn percentage that's how they want us to think when it's really not cuz we all uplifting each other you heard you think that the country music that's going on in the black people winning is not because of the hip-hop culture no no no I think no one is disputing that however so then when you say hip-hop numbers are down and damn for who no I'm talking about I know what you're talking about but damn for who tell me who it's down for because I'm still making the money I make yeah I do believe there's still a lot of artist that's making a shitload of money that they make I don't think it went down for them yeah you know what I mean but I understand what you're talking about they say the numbers and then rock and roll genre might be up like I don't really you heard like that's I'm into this business you heard and it's always up for us you heard cuz this is a business we make money out of nothing it's never a downside to this okay and and that's why I'm saying I think we're having two different conversations here cuz the conversation I'm having is I'm having I'm having right is that in as much as he's saying yeah the numbers are down because they orchestrated and whatever I get that right but also that's why I asked do you think Hip-hop has evolved cuz I grew up on hip-hop right and the same things um quote unquote you guys were rapping about in the '90s how can hipop how can hip hop evolved in the same thing that Africa been Africa been going on since the '90s aren't y going still going through the same thing we are huh we are so how could the music evolve when the music ref the time ah okay get you real stories what you want us to rap about [ __ ] that that we don't have ah we talk about [ __ ] we dream about all the time that's the good The Good Life the colorin the Ros we talk about but the truth is how the music going to change when our position hasn't changed when we still going through the same [ __ ] we've been going through okay and y'all being from Africa should know that more than we know that yeah that's facts that's fact go about that own Cod yeah yeah yeah yeah you know are bro that's a valid fact but how do you feel man like you've come from an era where you guys when what you you said in your raps I mean evolved as far as dition as far as what we rap about cuz we still stuck in the same place but as a business it has evolved to one of big time yeah yeah biggest big time money making machines you can attach yourself to this made some of the richest individuals whether you're the rapper the lawyer the executive like that's true you know what I mean the supply chain but then I think that's why you know when you get the likes of a wz coming out and Kendrick Lamar they stand out like a sore thumb because like they are rapping about but that's what music is about to stand out for those who that want to look like everybody they don't get nowhere why you think Dip set was so successful sucessful yeah because we stood out on purpose we don't want to look like or H or sound like no one else m we want yall to above all see us when we walk in the building and hear us when we get on that [ __ ] mic you heard why would you guys the diplomats I never like where did that come from the diplomats the name the diplomats yeah we diplomats oh ah okay that sounded cool no we diplomats we are Harlem diplomats and we take it as that you heard we go to the Embassy when we land in countries you heard all right okay okay okay I I sort of get that bro so in the business and how you still making money right now like from music just like how is it royalties damn you asking a lot of questions bro no I want to know bro I'm so I've got so many questions I want to ask you bro I'll tell you this music is supposed to be used so you can make as much ancillary dollars as you can because the music ain't promised everybody 15 minutes of fame ranges from a small 15 minutes of fame to a run like we having within that minute the 15 minutes the fame you better do a lot of other things to secure your bag because music is not going to be thing you be able to get paid off forever unless you're the DRS and the J that's not even 1% that's you know what I mean so you think about that so you better have some hustle you better learn how to you better have some business sense you better put your credit in order you better do a few things to secure you if you are artist [ __ ] leverage powerful penda yeah man how do you feel man when these kids these days wrap up about you know trying to act tough and rap about stuff they never done like you guys red about stuff you lived I mean I do believe a lot of these kids are going through a lot of [ __ ] that we went through and then a lot of the kids are talking about [ __ ] that they see but most of the kids are all growing up in the same community that all of that [ __ ] is going on so who tells them they don't have the right to talk about [ __ ] that they're not doing when that's still [ __ ] that they're seeing oh sure Ah that's powerful but the problem I have a problem when they rapping like they did it but they just R from somebody else's Vantage Point understand that but most of these artists that you've seen in the game some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I pretty firm in his in in his music that I'm a believer that he did some of that [ __ ] he can talk about just me I don't know you possibilities are possibilities but some things just seem correct you know mean I can't tell you for sure cuz it is music you know what I mean but some things seem correct [ __ ] man bro you got to come out to man you got to you know we haven't had a proper uh hip-hop concert in sa like since 50 N since you are come on back to the city does concerts man ah those are for old people empd the bigest artist in South Africa right now Hip-Hop Hip-Hop uh there's a guy called nastyc but nesty came here he doesn't know know you f poopa who's that nah F poopa Nigerian West African artist massive he used to pop not now for real still massive bigger than like ber boyo still it's different type of music oh stadiums is 50 60,000 people like what is this following this gu what's his name f poop F poop I don't know him bro he's from Nigeria yeah yeah yeah yeah Nigerian Prett pretty big yeah humongous bro how big was was 50 Cent bro like during his Reign man like how big was 50 Cent [ __ ] retardedly big it wasn't nothing bigger than him was Drake before Drake was dring he was oh [ __ ] he did it like it was like 50 was on a run that he never even touched the club bro like [ __ ] never seen him in the club he only did Arenas I never knew too many artist that just did that you dig like the [ __ ] was super massive every [ __ ] Rec he came out with was was going platinum and I'm just telling you the facts you heard and I always got to speak factual no matter how I feel about a person the [ __ ] was on top Super on top it was no way to knock him off his d i remember Jay-Z dropped the diss track on you did you guys resolve that beef I think you were not happy with him as the president of De jam oh man um we never really had a beef um we had some feuds back and forth through the situations that were going on over other people um and me being who I am I had to hold my ground um but to know that he actually talked about me in multiple of his records mean that I was pretty big in his eyes you dig true true cuz I didn't hear him talk about too many people in his career and if he did talk you talk about you on the record that meant something you know what I mean and I was then so for me that I I I took that like what it was like you dig like yeah J doesn't respond to take the time out to say my name you heard if I'm if I'm not that big of a deal to you you would never ever a am I am I right talk about a person you heard true it's it's a form of respect and ackowledge 100% am I right in saying a lot of [ __ ] are scared of Jay-Z bro cuz we interviewed Dam Ian I don't I don't know I'm not a lot of [ __ ] you heard I'm a man so I couldn't I I couldn't tell you that you heard I ain't scared to nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that that that dentist yeah the dentist got me there you heard you can walk in you could walk we about to fight right now you a dentist walk in you got it you got it like you got it bow down you got it I don't want no smoke let me get out of here M fact word Jimmy before you go man uh what beefs did you have so you had something beef with Jay-Z right no man I just told you we had some feuds stemming from that's beef bro stemming from other things that going on um my problem like it was all part of Us coming up in the game and things were happening we were signing a Rockefeller cam was sign a Rockefeller actually then we got opportunity to Diplomat records um the split between uh Jay and Dame came um artist took sides some took the J side some took the the Dame side which side were you on we was on the Dame side OB Dash yeah Dame Dash that's do you think Dame Dash is misunderstood bro huh you think Dame Dash is misunderstood um too smart for his own good I get that yeah if you had the opportunity again you sometimes being the smartest person in the room could be held against you especially when you want everybody to know that you're the smartest person in the room yeah yeah yeah and I get given a second chance would you still side with Dam never you wouldn't never whoa I never signed a d at all that was no no no like sided with him took his side oh give a second chance I wouldn't have sided with none of them I would we would haveed our [ __ ] business but you learned that with age yeah you heard we had no business butting into that because it wasn't a street beef and this wasn't some [ __ ] that had to do with us ultimately we were holding our [ __ ] down and [ __ ] like that but business-wise if we would if we knew what we knew now we would let them get into that they self y'all can handle that because we got records to put out and music to make and we got our own record label to run you dig and this my hinder what we got going on by us taking sides and that's why I tell people now even when people seeing all the Diplomat [ __ ] like y bro don't don't get in to taking sides with me and my bro because you never know how that might end up and if it end up to a point where we do figure out our situation then I'm looking at you funny now me and you got forever you heard you dig and there are plenty of people that did that and plenty people that didn't and plenty people that showed the same amount of love that he showed to me that it showed to cam when we were going through our imaginary situations and [ __ ] like that cuz it's all imaginary when you know you can figure figure it out now it's a saying that like don't just be in people's business when especially when they've beef and take sides cuz and I I had to learn that a lot I had took me a long time to learn that because of how we come up in the Cod that they supposedly treat us in teach us in the street and [ __ ] like that but sometimes that's not the smallest thing that we can do and then uh push a t did you ever beef with him nah that was some [ __ ] that we was on record um he did some [ __ ] I did some [ __ ] you dig that was it I never followed that I didn't even know did you know there's a pusher T me I ain't got no just know I don't know I know you're from I know you're from Africa and [ __ ] like that but people don't play with me yeah for real and I don't I don't play with people this ain't no playground you heard this is the street it's two ways don't get caught up in a yellow line it's going to be hard to cross bro yeah you heard no I don't trust me I'm from Africa but I saw what happened at the airport so that [ __ ] escalated yeah [ __ ] that was self-defense man God yo bro it looked like that guy was just messing with you bro I wish that could have never happened cuz I was trying to avoid that by all cause but [ __ ] happened sometime man you dig and definitely not not going to allow anybody do anything to me at all bro when I saw that video right like I don't know I just met you today right but I saw when you lifted that guy from the escalator threw him down he literally just went on survival mode bro like it's like there was a button that you switched on and you just like I don't [ __ ] care but yeah yeah no I mean no that's a button that I choose not to push you heard yeah exactly like you can go there quickly I choose to show restraint for a lot of reasons in my life and sometimes it's hard to you dig but where I'm at in life right now I choose positivity or all the other things that come out my way because I know how it is to be negative I was once that negative person that was very aggressive and ready to do something to to you over the minimal alistic of things and [ __ ] like that so I'm blessed to be here to try to be able to show restraint and so so the guy so the guy at the airport you guys on the same plane yeah we on the same plane so you don't have a private jet no I don't have a private jet I'm not a rich man come on Jimmy you made so much money over the years but anyway so you're in the plane what's he what's this guy saying to you like um I don't know man just [ __ ] happens I know just the started from the plane just know that what you see happen on so it starts on the plane you restrain yourself you're like all right cool my dog say whatever you want to say yeah when he gets to the airport I mean the escalator that's when I think he starts hitting you or something right yeah something like that he tried to do something like that and that's what we see man but like I said this is not something that I want to glorify it's not you think he knows who you are um if if he didn't he know now no I'm I'm sorry see sorry cuz some people just provoke I believe he was he was trolling a little bit and things like that which is cool you I mean I'm if if you in New York not time 10 you do know who I am so you know I believe it was a bit of that but God bless man hopefully that they all right hopefully the old man um cool you dig like are you spiritual cuz you mentioned God a lot man yeah I'm very spiritual very spiritual very spiritual I've been my whole family is spiritual and what does that mean in an American sense cuz um us as African for me it means a lot of different things um I was told what the church was as a young age as they drag you to church every Sunday your grandmother your moms and your family and things like that and you really don't understand what that is from that young but as you get older and you go through certain things and you make it through certain things you understand that there is a God and everybody has a relationship with their God different and sometimes going to church doesn't mean that you love your God any less or he loves you any less you dig and you say spiritual I'm very spiritual I say my prayers as much as I can sometime two three four times in a day you dig man doesn't take away from what I do and who I am because I'm still in the line for everything else everybody is in but I know every day that I'm able to wake up and every day I'm able to make a dollar and every day I'm able to keep living the life that I am I should be thankful you heard cuz that's not just me that's a higher vibration that's definitely a God you dig and I'm well aware that I've escaped many things in life that Lord knows I should not be here but then again I should be here cuz he put here for a reason he gives his toughest battles to his strongest people what the Bible say you heard and I've made it through some very tough battles which are minimal to some of the people that I had next to me in their battles you know what I mean so it's like we all got to figure it out Jim Jones thank you so much man and thanks to God for bringing you here man definitely I appreciate for making time for us bro thank you man we appreciate you tired when you got you I appreciate the fact that you could even make it man got any last question yeah man bro you said you've gone through some tough battles and you mentioned how you lost your dad at like 26 but also that you you pretty much raised yourself from the age of 15 you know from that relationship or lack of it like has it affected how you father your children 100% this made me the best father I could be but me my relationship with my father was always a great one even though he wasn't there because every day he wasn't I love them even more I wasn't one of them kids that was bitter you dig I understand that everybody went through something and at that age what he was going through there was a lot of drug addiction and I knew that from a very young age I understood what drugs was and how they were tearing up my family I never held that against my father and I was just blessed able to get back with him before he passed away so he could see that his son was making something out of himself at that time I was already signed to her uh we think we just got the Rockefeller deal so it was a very big deal for me to be able to get back with my father to show him that me somebody that you should be proud of and I know him looking down right now got be like damn I did that so you know and that's how I feel but then in turn TR here my son I don't you know I mean like I just you know mean I pride myself on making sure that I I turned my son into somebody that was way better than I could ever be you oh man yeah that's my guy shout out to you man is your son still wearing Crocs to you br he's a Croc guy you heard yeah Crocs for Life bro Crocs for Life jumping out the beam with a fresh paer Crocs on I don't want to stand him Jimmy before you go your top five rappers all time my top five rappers of all you got to give us your top five bro yeah Tupac definitely Jay-Z Drake um Drake he not like us by default of course um rock cam no Eminem No No whoa not even big you from NY and not to take nothing away from him he's extremely nice it's retardedly nice when it comes to rap but I listen to artists that kind of you know I mean do something for the life that I live and kind of what I've been through and most of these artist or artist that I'm talking about people that you know what I mean like [ __ ] better stop hating on my boy Drake all of a sudden all this Drake land I get it I get it you ain't like us let's not do that let's not forget the 15 years he been spanking [ __ ] around this [ __ ] all all all over this [ __ ] all the alley he been giving most of these artists that are now seeming to be turning on them let's you know let's not some of them gave him their best hits let's not forget the big picture here and [ __ ] like but what the hip-hop culture and this game is built on competition so I yeah but what is he with it you heard you better put your best foot forward but what has Drake given back to the culture oh that you so love here we go um what is he giving back to the culture I seen him take a lot of people on tour and turn them even richer than they already was I I seen him give a lot of people hits that they would have never had if he wouldn't have got on a record things for the culture that wouldn't have happened in turn records that we would have never knew about him to record that the culture love and things like that I mean he's not from here Canada from the hood I don't believe he owes America too much but the monster that give back to where he's from maybe we should ask about what has he done in Canada giving back to his community as opposed to what he giving back to the culture of the United States when this is not where he's from and I think that's the Divide right there now if we talk about what he's done in Canada and if it's not up to par then maybe we can talk about oh you dig but that's I think that's for the people of Canada you dig like yeah cuz but it's the people of America in the hood who made him of course you heard about but that he didn't grw up in America he didn't grew up here you heard so if you was an artist from Africa yeah like boy yeah do you think bnab boy has responsibility what do Niger of United stes n I'm taking it back home bro super duper big yes but that's what people then will call a culture vulture cuz you come into a space you know do what the people of that space do benefit from them is is is you understand what we doing like it's bro it's not because he's not take so he's not taking benab boy is Nigerian it's a Nigerian culture that is now popular in America so Drake took an American culture and enriched himself but what he's saying is that he doesn't owe anything to America cuz he's not from yet right okay right yeah I mean [ __ ] he's got no obligation Fair argument he got no obligation Fair argument yeah like he lived if he lived like I don't I don't that's how I see it you heard like that's how I see it you dig but all these [ __ ] we talking about are filthy filthy filthy rich off the opinions of men you heard what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never but what I'm just trying to tell you is how this game is played yeah you heard yeah geez man the more we talk the more they get paid the loser still gets paid too if there is a loser I don't think there's a loser when they all getting Millions off of this [ __ ] I don't think I mean like and I understand end all be all in the whole circle of it but I'm I've been in this [ __ ] for so long I'm miss you can see the politics of really get you to understand of what's really going on and [ __ ] like that this [ __ ] don't pay me a dollar to talk about it yeah hey man how tight you with Joe Bon he calls us those African guys with numbers oh yeah yeah yeah Jo this my guy buts what's up man he cool yeah he's an instigator definely know how to get under people's skin yeah I've known Joan for so long [ __ ] like that um I'm proud of him put himself in his position a whole new Lane to make a shitload of money um where it stem from the culture this what I'm talking about all the ancillary things that you need to get going on if are a artist of some type of success you got to use that to get where you want look at Joe used his startom and rap no matter what it was to able to finesse a whole new Lane of podcasting that true he's pretty big in damn near one of the forefathers of it from our culture right y'all started before him or after him we started after him but now we have more numbers than him hey doesn't matter no numbers do matter I mean no J and get num I'm cool with that but you won't be never be the considered the forefather of this whole no no no no no no no you dig 100% yeah it's Jo Joan numbers is cool I'm cool with that you get paid and I know what's a race you might be number one you heard yeah yeah but you still never be the forefather always going to have that under him like I've created this Lane for your how I feel about Ling hip hop yeah of course I got that under my belt that's mine y can never say that was yours at all yeah okay how much money you made off of it and [ __ ] like that at the end of the day you it's mine you heard Still My still mine so we always ask anybody any guest that we get on the show in closing what do you want to be remembered as man when it's all said and done I want I want to be remembered I want I want them to know that I gave more than I took because I was able to take a lot in my time amen just like that sh hey man I wish you put me on love and& hip-hop bro they got the African love of Hip Hop they got Jamaican love of Hip Hop they got they got any type of Love of Hip Hop we need the South African love of Hip Hop thanks Jim man shout out thank you bro I appreciate you man thank you we appreciate podcast and chill we out of here man boom peace welcome to Black excellenc do not fear for if you do just sip on some Grand and if you still do ask ourselves what would M [Music] do when they ask you do not fear for if you do just say an TV this is the the medicine of censorship this is the pill which one is that one podcast and chill	do um a podcast is too personal for me and [ __ ] like that and me watching these podcasts um dealing with these artists me myself don't have the temperament for it you know what I mean um I [ __ ] I T my hat to y'all to have to deal with artists such as myself cuz you never know what type of mood they going to come in you know what I me some of these artists have a air to them where they feel like they better than most and they would never sit and have tea with the with the maintenance guy you heard me myself me going to maintenance guy going to smoke blunts before I get on stage [Music] I live my life and and and currently uh before we let you go man what do you think about the state of hip-hop cuz like statistically numbers wise it's not looking good man e beats has played all over New York now there's now the pianos this is this is what they want you to do this is how to get us to go against each other it's all under the same culture umbrella it's afro music ref I'm a piano I'm a piano explain that what do you mean by that bro yeah R&B what do you mean by that ultimately it's all from under the same origin and creativity of the same person from the same colors is all our thing	2	6	8	do um a podcast is too personal for me and [ __ ] like that and me watching these podcasts um dealing with these artists me myself don't have the temperament for it you know what I mean um I [ __ ] I T my hat to y'all to have to deal with artists such as myself cuz you never know what type of mood they going to come in you know what I me some of these artists have a air to them where they feel like they better than most and they would never sit and have tea with the with the maintenance guy you heard me myself me going to maintenance guy going to smoke blunts before I get on stage	what do you think about the state of hip-hop cuz like statistically numbers wise it's not looking good man e beats has played all over New York now there's now the pianos this is this is what they want you to do this is how to get us to go against each other it's all under the same culture umbrella it's afro music ref I'm a piano I'm a piano explain that what do you mean by that bro yeah R&B what do you mean by that ultimately it's all from under the same origin and creativity of the same person from the same colors is all our thing	2,-3,4	6,4,8	2	-3	4	6	4	8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr730VmL-lk	4,054	rr730VmL-lk	2024-06-27 00:00:00	like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano no well Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he showed me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah just understand everybody going there my guy I understand the hate exactly what you're saying yeah bro what's his name I don't it's fine you remember those some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I ain't scared of nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that the dentist yeah dentist got me there what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never [Music] [Music] yo Jimmy you do not look like you want to be here bro like someone forced you to be it's like you have to do that par they're the biggest podcast in Africa you have to be there I never look like I want to be nowhere man you got to part of me but congratulations to yall having the biggest podcast in Africa that that that's very big Africa being one of the biggest continents in the world a lot of people over there shut up man why you so tired bro crazy weekend I've been working all weekend shows different states traveling Planes Trains automobiles you know how I be a little bit too much partying yeah road kill it's tough but what's up how y'all feeling I'm good bro I literally saw um I saw your video uh yesterday for your new single the one you shot in Miami two turn temp yeah yeah how you feel about it bro that [ __ ] is lit man looks like our Vibe bro cuz we've been to Miami myself and and my partner but we never like experienced the Miami night life we were playing in Florida yeah we're DJing in Florida but two South Africans like the diaspora then West Palm Beach as well yeah DJ also yeah like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano what it's a genre it's called a piano no no cuz I'm a piano even you heard like you saw he did the whole Keys thing it has nothing to do with the piano that's where it started but has nothing to do with it these days when when I met charlot man he said the exact same thing he's like oh so you're a podcaster I'm like yeah and then you DJs I'm like no I play I'm a Pian like you're a Pianist man you one talented [ __ ] n it's a genre of music man what kind of genre is that like it's like slowed down house music with a lot of s that African influence that's the only way I can describe it so it's a it's a mix of a marriage house yeah a marriage of house music which originated here at Chicago and stuff and then we slowed it down created a sub genre called guo where guys were sort of rapping but very minimalist raps called guo then the kids were born like in the 2000s late '90s then created a whole meshup of those two genres and it's called Piano cuz a a lot of Americans think it's um afro beats it's not afro beats yeah a lot of the hence I avoided saying afro beats cuz AFR beats is from Nigeria and amap piano is far from afro beat afro beat borrows from am piano now where is amap piano originated from South Africa from the hoods from the Cassis yeah but when I when I was looking at your video bro uh the only thing in my mind was like bro what's a night like out with Jim Jones CU that [ __ ] look lit there [ __ ] everywhere bro um please please describe a night out in Miami with Jim so let's say we going to Miami right now I mean some nice are better than others but been doing it so long it's kind of like the the bare minimum for us to do in Miami just having fun but it still work at the same time like every every I'm I'm not just going out partying for no reason ni like that was we knew what we was kind of getting into we wanted to film a video so we knew we was going to ramp it up a bit take it to the to the highest form going crazy as we could but that actually happened to fall on a big weekend um and one of my dudes was celebrating so everything kind of happened for a reason but yeah Miami could take you for take you for a few a few trips man like okay so so so me and you we get in the car right I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm in Miami I hate you cuz you got a house there you stay there right yeah I got I got I got cribs there so I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm by the strip you know that Miami strip right yeah yeah yeah I mean see that's the thing about Miami when you come to visit Miami that's where people are know at like the strip and things like that I guess stand by Collins and ocean driveing all that people that live there don't really do the strip like that like you just you dig people congregate usually at night time and all the spots that usually go on down there um okay so we got security obviously you got to roll around with security right um yeah I mean that' be the safest thing for me to do so we get out the cut with security when you get to the bouncers are they letting us in cuz it's Jim Jones or are they checking our IDs cuz they've been checking our IDs just to buy beer here bro Che ID everywhere yeah everywhere yeah no I I don't think I produced my ID in since I was a teenager at clubs but yeah you won't need your ID when you with me so we walking in right yeah we going to get in oh do we have a section do we they going to give us a section VIP yeah they going to give us a section we going to get some bottles and let the night ensue got this thing called Power Hour you go to the club maybe like 2:45 to 3:45 in and out no sweat so what's the what's the purpose of that exercise the Power Hour yeah like why would you be in the cloud for an hour why would I be in a club for 4 hours it's Fu I mean I've been part I've been partying since I've been 14 I've been making money to party since I've been 18 I'm kind of burnt out so at this point I try to wait till the club is at the most popping or lest moment which is usually that hour right there and I get to enjoy everything that happened tonight and leave out of there and not be all burnt out what what does your wife say bro cuz you're married man you're surrounded by all these girls like you know I mean I'm going to worry about the women yeah is minimal to the money worry about the money more than anything so so a woman doesn't like give you grief when you come home I yeah you get you get grief all the time if you in a relationship no matter what you do if you had a job on Wall Street you get home you're going to get grief no around it you heard yeah there's women everywhere unless you work in the LGBT Club then you know I mean even there you still going to go home and get like it's no way around it you're going to get you know I mean like yeah so you've never had like been home and you had to explain like yo no man I was just doing music video it's just work like I don't know that good you going to explain yourself in every relationship and things like that I got a good woman at home who understands a job I have and things like that so for the most part but for the most part I'm a very responsible respectable person when when I'm in the streets and when I do have to interact with females and things like that yeah anyway H ladies and gentlemen welcome to another special edition of podcasting chill so CU yeah I am here we're chilling with the [ __ ] Legend Kings of Harlem please make some noise for Jim Jones Jim I gotta say bro I gotta say bro I'm going to be honest with you when I find that your name was GMO geloo gelo I'm like I'm like Jim Jones losing some G points here man what the [ __ ] is that I'm Puerto Rican and a rubian my pops is Puerto Rican the word gelo means William in English is a Spanish Spanish name cuz you know what I was thinking I was thinking that guy who does the show late night you know the short guy who does like the interviews with um this late night comedian man what are the late night shows oh man not uh bad with these oh gosh the late night guy bro uhri or something not Corin O'Brien no not Trevor Noah the other American guy man like uh old new no he's like jimm Kimel Jimmy Kimel jimy he's got that he's got that short guy his name is julo oh I don't I don't I don't got got me messed up I don't even really watch TV like that bro okay I'll be out chasing the money I ain't even got time to do that and if and if I do got some time I'm trying to get a little bit of rest or I'm thinking about money [ __ ] is crucial out here right now you better get to your dollar a lot of [ __ ] about to happen and if you ain't got no coins boy you going to be [ __ ] up you ever been to uh Puerto Rico yeah I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times yeah but business not for the Heritage part of it so like you don't know where like your your your parents were at Familiar of the place where my father's from but I never really got to do the whole go to give with my family understand the roots understand you know I mean like I didn't get to get to that part of it but I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times you find like that's important like to know you it's definitely important I had this um I did an interview not too long ago about um how important the roots are and get to know where my family from know I mean so we'll start to do that pretty soon so so so your dad you know you know your dad right yeah he's passed away oh okay God bless rest in peace what happened to him he passed away yeah like was it um medical thing or yeah natural causes oh damn like when you young or um maybe when I was uh 23 24 oh damn bro SED to hear that man maybe 26 right before my son passed right before my God bless right before my son Bor bro but you like 47 right now I look good for 47y old man no homo you know what I mean thank you very much like what was what's keeping you looking so good is it the yoga yeah a lot of yoga a lot of Pilates I stay in shape um I'm very uh very big on Fitness um work out like five six times a week um it's one of the best ways to stay young and have better chances of living a long life is that why you do it or maybe there's other purpose like you know a lot of people are in gym for their mental health I mean it's very it's very it's very therapeutic I will say that but my main goal is to look good of course but to give me better chances of living forever bro so how you got into rap um I don't know correct me if I'm wrong right but you used to skip church and go to the train station to to rap like no I never skipped Church to go on the train station and rap I skipped Church to go to the train station and go play video games and run the streets and do everything a bad little kid did from the streets of hollow when we was like S8 and n and things like that I don't know if you know about anything about the subway system in New York but that's the pathway system that get you to all five burrows and we definitely was on the subway which maybe we shouldn't have been but we was a little uh loose um for me rapping actually rapping didn't start later on in life to actually uh C and um they I got a deal and things like that and that was the first time me myself really thought about actually raing cuz I'll be honest with you like um dipet I don't really know much about dipet however I know about you guys individually like Cameron old boy like one of my favorite songs uh jul sna had hear that that was Cameron and Jules and jwes he both was on he both old boy and heon yeah why don't you jump on those tracks man those tracks are massive they was already done I was there for the making of both of them incredible tracks yeah and then how did dipit start start like how did you guys start the whole movement um organically kiss him Harem gr up together um talented kids Cam and Mason BL sh was they already was doing music um Everybody gradu graduated high school I didn't get to go to college they went to college they got kicked out they got kicked out they come moved in with me from that that was a uh foundation for them to D into the music you've been in the game for like 20 30 odd years right been in the game for since 1997 how would you describe the different eras of like um hip-hop right especially now cuz um obviously we all know about the Kendrick Lamar song they're not like us but I didn't know how big it was until I landed in in in America and it's like it's like a movement the video yeah it's like huge it's massive bro yeah it's a big record Kendrick did that shout out to Kendrick shout out to my boy Drake but what do you think about like the evolution of hip-hop in all the different areas you've been a part of what do you mean what do I think about it it's a great thing to be a part of something that um you could only dream of everybody doesn't get a chance to be in this game um I've been fortunate enough to be here for so many genres and errors and seen so many people come and go I've watched the smallest artist to the biggest artist who you thow will be here forever and going um I got stories for days I can tell you about um how I feel about it I feel great I feel blessed you know what I mean I feel lucky this [ __ ] don't it's not promised and for me to still be here is definitely a blessing so in the 90s what was the vibe like man like like what in the 90s as far as what in hip-hop yeah it was it was different um 90s was a great era um one of my favorite errors um that was the era we first first came outside um started to get out deal uh very aggressive era uh no social media um cell phones were just being born um everything that you seen you was something that you could grab on to um artists had to go to the towns we couldn't just get on your phone and music you had to go get you couldn't just have access to it so it was a it was it it was a hunt um you had to touch the Tails kiss babies do radio everything like it was just a different ER but who was around like during that time when you who was around like Tupac was did you like meet Tupac Tupac I didn't get to meet Tupac um Tupac passed away what 95 was that yeah right in big in '97 um no I got to see Tupac do a few times in Harlem um that was dope but um not Tupac passed away before we got to get in the record game but I've seen a lot of a lot of artists in my time from a young age to old age we were partying in clubs as teenagers before we even got a record deal and things like that like we were in clubs since high school and [ __ ] like that so any interactions with Big L he was from Harlem right yeah shouts to Big Al Big Al was definitely from Harlem um 139th NFL Big L um I was one of the Cam's uh close friends um actually put cam on a dope record that started to give uh Cam and bloodshed and and her mcgree her was already popping too but guy gave them some notice when it came to R so when you come out like who's who's popping at that time is it git is it mop D it's way before G when we came out I was like Eminem just dropped oh [ __ ] this is Slim Shady not M like Slim Shady I I remember that that was like cam had dropped and Eminem had dropped DMX had dropped Nori had dropped um Big Pun had dropped lud Chris Luda had just started coming out um Nelly Nelly down down baby yeah shouts to coola love um yeah that type of error shouts to shouts to Fat Joe shouts to Buster they was already in it uh Nas was already in it Jay start going crazy that's when he just started taking over with the 1 million 2 million 3 million 4 um yeah very competitive very edgy um lot of the big dogs um had real roots in the streets um especially in the streets of New York so that put that put a real Mystique on everything when it came to the music um all the events with topnotch um it just was a different feel man it was a heavy heavy dope boy era um this was before the drug dealers wanted to be Rappers that's when the rappers wanted to be drug dealers you know what I mean and and that Arrow was was a very dope high impact trenel and Russian it was a was a great error bro I saw an interview you did correct me if I'm wrong I might be paraphrasing but you mentioned a place called the tunnel or something where everybody would be and you guys were [ __ ] [ __ ] in the bathrooms please please describe that manest cuz a place like that couldn't exist right now bro with all this woke [ __ ] I mean yeah and the cancel cult I would say it was probably the greatest Club The Hip hopers have seen and it was during the 90s era it was the Golden Era um in New York they got you had stories about like Studio 54 in that era when everybody used all the biggest of big used to go to Studio 54 well the tunnel was what Studio 54 was to that era to our era and it didn't make so many people and nationalities and genres and just everybody was like a big pumbo all for the sake of the culture you had some of the flyest models to some of the biggest drug dealers biggest gang bangers I mean every former elicit street life you could think of was in the spot along with the biggest artists and rappers and actors and models that you could find into all athletes um it would definitely like that um and was this like per invite or just like anybody could Rock up there nah you couldn't just rock up there for this is '90s entry was like $100 first of all $100 for a club that was the first time we ever heard of it and that was a lot of money back then especially we probably started in '94 going there teenager so $100 was sto a lot of money in New York at the time sneakers wasn't even costing $100 um to get in the club you definitely had to be connected to know somebody or you had to wait on a long line that usually was a block long um they had like an Express line you could pay $100 to get on Express line that'll get you to the door quicker and then you pay your entry fee um streets was blocked off you was a big dog you was able to bring your cars down there I was able to bring like four five of them if I wanted to um yeah the club was just it was different man pull up to the door security they taking people's shoes off they searching your jacket twisting people inside out like they about to go on the Rikers Island I got to I gave security High files I never took my shoes off and not since high school I when we used go in high school we used to get our shoes taken off and things like that make you feel like you going to the cental bookings and [ __ ] like that so what gave you that clout that allowed you to bring four cars in when nobody or you had to be a big dog to bring four cars in when you could just give them a high five instead of removing your shoes and you're young by then like what gives you that CL I was a big dog since a small pup bro J yeah man what gave you those you know credentials at such a young age to suppos all these people cuz Dr Tre was there yeah you putting in four cars not removing shoes I was a good Lord Biden citizen everybody love Jim Jones even even the girls like would you just rock up they say let's go to the bathroom that's it yeah now that well yeah there was a lot of that going on they had a uh the layout was different first of all the club was a block long a whole city block um wow there was like three other four other clubs within the club or spots that look like clubs um the main floor was humongously big the DJ was like a a lifeguard Tower in the middle of the club um you go upstairs they had a VR big V PE upstairs and then go through a door it open up to the bathroom the bathroom was like a unisex Club [ __ ] had a big ass bar in the middle of the bathroom uh bunch of stalls lined up um that [ __ ] was like a hotel inside Lions cocaine everything yeah they was going down a lot of sex was going down there a lot of a lot of drugs was going down in there um yeah the tunnel was definitely uh a landmark to New York City when it comes to the clubs I I definitely um I always think about that club um it did a lot for me in my life um it gave me a lot of imagination when it came to to the culture and the things I was seeing from a young age as to where I want to be and the direction I want to go in yeah we was going there since high school so when you seeing people like Mike Tyson and all these people coming in big cheer on and just having their way as a kid go out got to go to school the next morning you you in school thinking about that [ __ ] like w man this school [ __ ] [ __ ] this school [ __ ] I need some money and I need to go to the tunnel that's all I want to [ __ ] do that's wild man now can you imagine because we in sa right we're looking at all the videos that you guys are pulling out there like we're looking at this lifestyle and then you F Track to 2024 right M and the P didy thing breaks out right I mean i' rather not even to get into that yeah just don't I rather the do I don't you know I mean like it's not it's not my business oh I mean like this you heard God bless it's too much n yeah and it's not me to have an opinion on certain things cuz I ain't perfect I've been through my own [ __ ] in life and I see a lot of people that have even this doing too much just know that I ain't perfect so I choose not to talk on certain [ __ ] that you know what I mean a lot of other people people been talking about I let them keep doing the talk and I got other [ __ ] to work on I'm trying to work on me being a better person yeah I respect I respect that man but were ever part of any gang or like you sounding like the F never hey we don't the F in South Africa man only PS I'm just playing with you yeah I've been affiliated with the bloods in New York City um ENT Tre um yeah so crazy have you ever been to sa like have you ever been to Africa or um I've been to Africa where did you go uh gaban gille damn G to perform there um I went to perform there but uh got some great friends there they actually had ran the country at the time this is before the big yeah yeah overtaking and stuff like that but I had a ball out there I got to go to an island called Pony um that was a dope experience as they took me to the jungles I got to see some of the indigenous people um it was like a a real um life Awakening like and I got to see how also the rich people live out there also like I got to see both sides like that you know what I mean it was it was a great experience I out there for like a week um I haven't been back since but yeah it was dope you never been to South Africa never been to South Africa bro so the reason why I asked that is because like yo bro like American culture has infiltrated South Africa like you can't believe like you know we got people worshiping you guys you know Jim Jones rappers and everything you so we've got rappers who rap just like you and youd say they're like Bloods and Crips but they've never they've never left sa you know cuz that's how influential uh the culture is right but from you when you see or hear that like what do you guys think like do you think is like some [ __ ] like or like leave don't don't follow the gang life you know what I mean oh as far as that is concerned um there's two sides to that this what you do as a gang member that turns it into something that becomes a crime or whatever that end but the Brotherhood part of it is what the most of us joined up for when we coming up in the hood and need that Brotherhood lean on somebody is that type of camaraderie that pretty much stood for and there's a lot of other great attributes that comes with affiliation or you becoming a part of a gang um it gets twisted up because we all come up in these urban communities and our back is against the wall we don't have no opportunities um it's very dormant uh we on top of each other so naturally testosterone testosterone wins in a lot of these situations where these kids find s in bad situations and for that I would tell people to kind of stay away from this type of life um I don't want to oppose my will we all going to experience what we going to experience but I can't tell you the consequences to this type of Lifestyle could be very dear you heard ethal a lot of people don't get to make it where I made it and Escape that lifestyle that could have put me away or could have put me in the dirt I mean so here as a Living testament to tell you that these consequences are terrible the odds on you making it out of that life in a positive manner are very slim I mean but if you are in that life and you taking it as a Brotherhood and try to uplift your brothers I know there's a lot of people around you that are doing a lot of [ __ ] that that that that that's very crazy you know what I mean if you're a part of that and you got the positive minder then you try to uplift your brother and instill some positivity within them because it's very cold out here so I've always been curious bro like so when that when you you you start getting immersed you know or Affiliated in the gang life how does that affect the conversation at home with your parents like your mom your dad and just the domestic you know Dynamics I a't grow my parents I was a grown man since I was like 15 I made my own money since I was like 16 my grandmother left me in high school man I was raising my Sisters by myself in the projects I hustle every I ever got in my life that's why music saved my life I was so grateful to be able to be next to cam and him getting a deal at such a very young age to be able to still be making money off that [ __ ] right now you were U anr for Warner uh music group yeah I was the director of anr for Warner Music Group um years ago uh shouts to Kevin L shouts to Leo Cohen for giving me the opportunity um great opportunity uh I excelled at it extremely very young with a lot of power but didn't understand what I had at hand um didn't have too many people in my corner that were telling me the things that I should have been doing with that type of position as opposed to some type of weird way be hating you know I mean so that's what happened but as you get older you learn you learn and you move on who did you discover while you were in that position uh I would tell you a story I I know I've helped try s uh they come to tra songs that you know today he's always in he's always in we know why no n but he was a young kid at the time and uh they were actually going to cut him from the label we had a big uh um it's like uh one of them uh some events they be doing not the talent shows the uh well was something like that all the artists had to come perform and then they pretty much didn't know that they was on a Cho and block at the time when I was an executive and and he was one of the artists that they were going to cut and I remember Kevin L specifically ask me yo what we should do with him I'm about to cut him I don't know what to do with him and when I heard him uh singing and I saw him perform I was like this is this is one artist you should keep and did that and now we all tra songs on so many dope ass records is it true you could have signed Drake yeah I had a chance to sign uh I had a chance to do business with Drake um through Allan grum blat um when I was doing business at cotch um it was a different era I didn't understand what Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he show me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah understand everybody going at my guy I understand the hate man the hate is so phenomenal it's just how this game go man this game is so tricky man these [ __ ] just like females in this game we ain't going to get into that man there's a lot of uh but wait wait wait so so with Drake like are you are you seeing him perform like try songs or like you just heard of the guy just a conversation Allan called me about signing a kid let me hear some of his music um and I was like the kid know how to rap but I don't know what to do with him his image is crazy and him couple years later heard him on a Wheezy mixtape going crazy I was like wow this kid is about to go wham inside of this business and he sure did and you're know trying to call Weezy like yo man I gotta get that kid or something n he was already signed a young money and jcole did you miss on jcole as well I could have signed J Cole bro jcole was in the studio with me every day and at that point jcole I he's he remind me of a knockoff Drake and not to say it like that but that's who he sounded like he came to my studio every day rapping to these Drake beats rapping like Drake Cadence like Drake he could rap his ass off yeah you heard yeah but it was already a drake out there he had the Caesar it was different like two lightskinn [ __ ] might not K when raing the same but you never know what you got in front of you man you dig and those are lessons I I've took with me to moving forward when I see artists and and I hate artists I always give them more than just hearing just just I got to I got to I gotta try to capture the whole picture I make sure I just don't you mean so I don't miss nothing else because I've missed a few people and I've helped a few people um gain a lot of success in in my time in this industry whether it been by me having a meeting with them or me having influence on them or you know I mean so you know and there's never like any animosity like Jake Cole or Drake never came up to be like yo you could have signed me look at me now bro I mean me and Drake is cool as [ __ ] um I see J Cole I don't think he I mean I don't think that's no he some [ __ ] he might want to keep to himself not to be like that sh the co he not that type of artist he's not a you I mean yeah you did I look I look at as we can see I want to mention an artist who like I'm really fond of like I think this guy's [ __ ] amazing musically talented everything that he touched like turned to Gold who's that uh kid k bro K Cy yeah yeah did you help him with his career yeah I birth K Cy wow J me how so bro bir them nobody would have know who K Cy was at all if I a jump on this remix record but it wasn't even remix he wasn't even a nobody like I tell a story all the time I had a inter used to work for me said he got some dudes that do videos they would like to do a video for me told them come let me see they work they show me their videos the first video they showed me was of the kid Cy record he's on the top of a roof some simple video the record sound more wavy than the opportunity for them to do a video I'm like well if you'll get me the beat to this record I Remix this record and then y'all can shoot the video to that record wow and that's what they did and then um the radio station ripped the record off of YouTube and start playing it at Hot 97 and K Cy was born bro why do you think especially about kid Cy cuz from him when I listen to music right it wasn't really no no other kid Cy record besides the one that I was on yeah man he's not in they don't play his records where I be at at all not to be funny wow bro and we listen to him like all that day and night you know remember only record I know yeah it's the only record I know unless it's like a pop record that everybody know and I and I'm even not paying attention to it but he don't his records don't get played nowhere that i' be at not like that unless I go into a different farm and that's the type of music they playing in one of these funny clubs that play fist pump music and pop music he's not into like you dig like they don't play his music in the clubs I'll be at maybe in Vegas and [ __ ] like that but that's not like they not pumping this [ __ ] in live they not pumping this [ __ ] in Atlanta they not pumping this [ __ ] down the Stafford room or you know what I mean like they I'm not saying nothing like that but I don't hear it in the strip clubs I don't hear like you know what I mean so but he's a very successful person with some of the greats like Kanye to put him in a position to win and [ __ ] like that and I think he's way more better as an actor than he is a musician and that's just my POS that's just my opinion he did I seen him in the movie uh about the race car [ __ ] where he was F the playe like he got a lot of Charisma and [ __ ] like that on on camera for what I could see and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean bro I mean for you as Jim Jones to to see these kids you're introduced to them by an intern and then to hop onto that song it's something selfless you know to just give these unknown kids an opportunity of sharing a song with you where do you think that selflessness comes from how was that unknown kid I'm still an unknown kid anytime I get an opportunity that's an opportunity I should be able to give to somebody else bro the fact that you could even come to our podcast shout out man yeah man you don't even know us exactly what you're saying yeah know us what's his name I don't it's fine you know remember those kids who who did the video for him anyway you know remember I remember like that kids that got the biggest African podcast I'm definitely going to know like them is my guys right family right there appreciate I really mean that that sincerely and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean I I bump in too many people in my life and been across too many people in my journey to actually remember everybody's name but the face and the cause and I mean BR I want to understand right the first time you came up with the concept For Love and Hip Hop where were you what was happening that um that was something like uh me and Christy she had opportunity to do uh her own reality show um and actually fell through and that kind of she was kind of she wanted to do that I can see she was eager about doing that when it fell through kind you know I mean [ __ ] with her mood and [ __ ] like that so so so so so the initial concept what was it was just Chrissy just showing like what's life the initial concept was about she had her own thing going on about a group of women that was supposed to do a reality show had nothing to do with me yeah that [ __ ] fell through she lost that opportunity to end up not going people have been begging me to do reality TV for past couple years at the time and I and you reality TV gold man I refused to do it yeah and then when that happened I was like all right I got I'll do this for you and we'll make it about you and females that have to that are involved with artist such as myself and show what the relationship side is when you're dealing with a high-profile artist and you know what I mean how so that's how that started bro and that thing became a monster super super monster like it's still big till this day bro 100% so do you have like uh ownership in that we we were link a all that you know at that time when maybe the second season we just in a position where we refuse to compromise our dignity for anyone or any dollar and sometimes it be like that you know what I mean um but ain't no stress off my back T my hat to him you no but but but we got to talk about that because you see like this podcast um it's blackowned right it's just me and a couple of other people that are involved in the podcast right and we're always striving for ownership so a lot of um Brands and investors have come to try to buy the podcast and we say know cuz like we believe in ownership and telling the story the way we want to tell it right so what went wrong in that because as a hustler I believe like that's your also end goal MH um it wasn't something that I was just a lot of different layers and [ __ ] like that and I was too worried about doing other things and we had the opportunity to gain all ownership 50% of the whole TV show and all that but it still wasn't worth GE bro that's insane you just let go like that yeah bro it's your brain child bro there is no Love and& Hip Hop without you bro I still got a brain you heard yeah those are for people that don't have a brain that lack creativity people that steal things from you lack what you don't have remember that yeah whether it's money whether it's creativity whatever it is they lack what you don't have ultimately they steal from you you heard I mean we didn't even know C beef if it wasn't for Love and& Hip Hop right yeah yeah yeah definitely yeah bro you gave birth to so many many people man like VI their careers that's the god in me that's why I'm always going to be good yeah she man so any other shows that you're working on like in the pipeline that you want to do I was telling you I working on um a late night show a late night um a late night variety show live in studio audience hopefully we'll be filming in about 40 to 60 days um beautiful concept I do I do believe people going enjoy the show um like I was saying I can't do um a podcast is too personal for me and [ __ ] like that and me watching these podcasts um dealing with these artists me myself don't have the temperament for it you know what I mean um I [ __ ] I T my hat to y'all to have to deal with artists such as myself cuz you never know what type of mood they going to come in you know what I me some of these artists have a air to them where they feel like they better than most and they would never sit and have tea with the with the maintenance guy you heard me myself me going to maintenance guy going to smoke blunts before I get on stage [Music] I live my life and and and currently uh before we let you go man what do you think about the state of hip-hop cuz like statistically numbers wise it's not looking good man e beats has played all over New York now there's now the pianos this is this is what they want you to do this is how to get us to go against each other it's all under the same culture umbrella it's afro music ref I'm a piano I'm a piano explain that what do you mean by that bro yeah R&B what do you mean by that ultimately it's all from under the same origin and creativity of the same person from the same colors is all our thing n but let's be honest Jimmy hip-hop hasn't involved bro when I was listening to Eminem what do you want mean what do you mean hip-hop hasn't evolved you guys are still rapping about the same stuff it don't you you missing the point of what hip-hop is yeah hip-hop has evolved to a point that you can be the music genres that you're told them about can be noticed you think that if there was a hip hop that I'm a piano would be noticed or afro Beach would be noticed think about that and not to take nothing away from y because you always have culture and yes that music might be big within the continent of Africa yeah right but to cross over to American Fame and commercialism you don't think that the hip-hop culture played a big part in that that's that that's a different argument now you want to have a different argument I'm telling you the semantics of where we going with this you dig like you talking about uh the the hip hop music is damn percentage that's how they want us to think when it's really not cuz we all uplifting each other you heard you think that the country music that's going on in the black people winning is not because of the hip-hop culture no no no I think no one is disputing that however so then when you say hip-hop numbers are down and damn for who no I'm talking about I know what you're talking about but damn for who tell me who it's down for because I'm still making the money I make yeah I do believe there's still a lot of artist that's making a shitload of money that they make I don't think it went down for them yeah you know what I mean but I understand what you're talking about they say the numbers and then rock and roll genre might be up like I don't really you heard like that's I'm into this business you heard and it's always up for us you heard cuz this is a business we make money out of nothing it's never a downside to this okay and and that's why I'm saying I think we're having two different conversations here cuz the conversation I'm having is I'm having I'm having right is that in as much as he's saying yeah the numbers are down because they orchestrated and whatever I get that right but also that's why I asked do you think Hip-hop has evolved cuz I grew up on hip-hop right and the same things um quote unquote you guys were rapping about in the '90s how can hipop how can hip hop evolved in the same thing that Africa been Africa been going on since the '90s aren't y going still going through the same thing we are huh we are so how could the music evolve when the music ref the time ah okay get you real stories what you want us to rap about [ __ ] that that we don't have ah we talk about [ __ ] we dream about all the time that's the good The Good Life the colorin the Ros we talk about but the truth is how the music going to change when our position hasn't changed when we still going through the same [ __ ] we've been going through okay and y'all being from Africa should know that more than we know that yeah that's facts that's fact go about that own Cod yeah yeah yeah yeah you know are bro that's a valid fact but how do you feel man like you've come from an era where you guys when what you you said in your raps I mean evolved as far as dition as far as what we rap about cuz we still stuck in the same place but as a business it has evolved to one of big time yeah yeah biggest big time money making machines you can attach yourself to this made some of the richest individuals whether you're the rapper the lawyer the executive like that's true you know what I mean the supply chain but then I think that's why you know when you get the likes of a wz coming out and Kendrick Lamar they stand out like a sore thumb because like they are rapping about but that's what music is about to stand out for those who that want to look like everybody they don't get nowhere why you think Dip set was so successful sucessful yeah because we stood out on purpose we don't want to look like or H or sound like no one else m we want yall to above all see us when we walk in the building and hear us when we get on that [ __ ] mic you heard why would you guys the diplomats I never like where did that come from the diplomats the name the diplomats yeah we diplomats oh ah okay that sounded cool no we diplomats we are Harlem diplomats and we take it as that you heard we go to the Embassy when we land in countries you heard all right okay okay okay I I sort of get that bro so in the business and how you still making money right now like from music just like how is it royalties damn you asking a lot of questions bro no I want to know bro I'm so I've got so many questions I want to ask you bro I'll tell you this music is supposed to be used so you can make as much ancillary dollars as you can because the music ain't promised everybody 15 minutes of fame ranges from a small 15 minutes of fame to a run like we having within that minute the 15 minutes the fame you better do a lot of other things to secure your bag because music is not going to be thing you be able to get paid off forever unless you're the DRS and the J that's not even 1% that's you know what I mean so you think about that so you better have some hustle you better learn how to you better have some business sense you better put your credit in order you better do a few things to secure you if you are artist [ __ ] leverage powerful penda yeah man how do you feel man when these kids these days wrap up about you know trying to act tough and rap about stuff they never done like you guys red about stuff you lived I mean I do believe a lot of these kids are going through a lot of [ __ ] that we went through and then a lot of the kids are talking about [ __ ] that they see but most of the kids are all growing up in the same community that all of that [ __ ] is going on so who tells them they don't have the right to talk about [ __ ] that they're not doing when that's still [ __ ] that they're seeing oh sure Ah that's powerful but the problem I have a problem when they rapping like they did it but they just R from somebody else's Vantage Point understand that but most of these artists that you've seen in the game some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I pretty firm in his in in his music that I'm a believer that he did some of that [ __ ] he can talk about just me I don't know you possibilities are possibilities but some things just seem correct you know mean I can't tell you for sure cuz it is music you know what I mean but some things seem correct [ __ ] man bro you got to come out to man you got to you know we haven't had a proper uh hip-hop concert in sa like since 50 N since you are come on back to the city does concerts man ah those are for old people empd the bigest artist in South Africa right now Hip-Hop Hip-Hop uh there's a guy called nastyc but nesty came here he doesn't know know you f poopa who's that nah F poopa Nigerian West African artist massive he used to pop not now for real still massive bigger than like ber boyo still it's different type of music oh stadiums is 50 60,000 people like what is this following this gu what's his name f poop F poop I don't know him bro he's from Nigeria yeah yeah yeah yeah Nigerian Prett pretty big yeah humongous bro how big was was 50 Cent bro like during his Reign man like how big was 50 Cent [ __ ] retardedly big it wasn't nothing bigger than him was Drake before Drake was dring he was oh [ __ ] he did it like it was like 50 was on a run that he never even touched the club bro like [ __ ] never seen him in the club he only did Arenas I never knew too many artist that just did that you dig like the [ __ ] was super massive every [ __ ] Rec he came out with was was going platinum and I'm just telling you the facts you heard and I always got to speak factual no matter how I feel about a person the [ __ ] was on top Super on top it was no way to knock him off his d i remember Jay-Z dropped the diss track on you did you guys resolve that beef I think you were not happy with him as the president of De jam oh man um we never really had a beef um we had some feuds back and forth through the situations that were going on over other people um and me being who I am I had to hold my ground um but to know that he actually talked about me in multiple of his records mean that I was pretty big in his eyes you dig true true cuz I didn't hear him talk about too many people in his career and if he did talk you talk about you on the record that meant something you know what I mean and I was then so for me that I I I took that like what it was like you dig like yeah J doesn't respond to take the time out to say my name you heard if I'm if I'm not that big of a deal to you you would never ever a am I am I right talk about a person you heard true it's it's a form of respect and ackowledge 100% am I right in saying a lot of [ __ ] are scared of Jay-Z bro cuz we interviewed Dam Ian I don't I don't know I'm not a lot of [ __ ] you heard I'm a man so I couldn't I I couldn't tell you that you heard I ain't scared to nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that that that dentist yeah the dentist got me there you heard you can walk in you could walk we about to fight right now you a dentist walk in you got it you got it like you got it bow down you got it I don't want no smoke let me get out of here M fact word Jimmy before you go man uh what beefs did you have so you had something beef with Jay-Z right no man I just told you we had some feuds stemming from that's beef bro stemming from other things that going on um my problem like it was all part of Us coming up in the game and things were happening we were signing a Rockefeller cam was sign a Rockefeller actually then we got opportunity to Diplomat records um the split between uh Jay and Dame came um artist took sides some took the J side some took the the Dame side which side were you on we was on the Dame side OB Dash yeah Dame Dash that's do you think Dame Dash is misunderstood bro huh you think Dame Dash is misunderstood um too smart for his own good I get that yeah if you had the opportunity again you sometimes being the smartest person in the room could be held against you especially when you want everybody to know that you're the smartest person in the room yeah yeah yeah and I get given a second chance would you still side with Dam never you wouldn't never whoa I never signed a d at all that was no no no like sided with him took his side oh give a second chance I wouldn't have sided with none of them I would we would haveed our [ __ ] business but you learned that with age yeah you heard we had no business butting into that because it wasn't a street beef and this wasn't some [ __ ] that had to do with us ultimately we were holding our [ __ ] down and [ __ ] like that but business-wise if we would if we knew what we knew now we would let them get into that they self y'all can handle that because we got records to put out and music to make and we got our own record label to run you dig and this my hinder what we got going on by us taking sides and that's why I tell people now even when people seeing all the Diplomat [ __ ] like y bro don't don't get in to taking sides with me and my bro because you never know how that might end up and if it end up to a point where we do figure out our situation then I'm looking at you funny now me and you got forever you heard you dig and there are plenty of people that did that and plenty people that didn't and plenty people that showed the same amount of love that he showed to me that it showed to cam when we were going through our imaginary situations and [ __ ] like that cuz it's all imaginary when you know you can figure figure it out now it's a saying that like don't just be in people's business when especially when they've beef and take sides cuz and I I had to learn that a lot I had took me a long time to learn that because of how we come up in the Cod that they supposedly treat us in teach us in the street and [ __ ] like that but sometimes that's not the smallest thing that we can do and then uh push a t did you ever beef with him nah that was some [ __ ] that we was on record um he did some [ __ ] I did some [ __ ] you dig that was it I never followed that I didn't even know did you know there's a pusher T me I ain't got no just know I don't know I know you're from I know you're from Africa and [ __ ] like that but people don't play with me yeah for real and I don't I don't play with people this ain't no playground you heard this is the street it's two ways don't get caught up in a yellow line it's going to be hard to cross bro yeah you heard no I don't trust me I'm from Africa but I saw what happened at the airport so that [ __ ] escalated yeah [ __ ] that was self-defense man God yo bro it looked like that guy was just messing with you bro I wish that could have never happened cuz I was trying to avoid that by all cause but [ __ ] happened sometime man you dig and definitely not not going to allow anybody do anything to me at all bro when I saw that video right like I don't know I just met you today right but I saw when you lifted that guy from the escalator threw him down he literally just went on survival mode bro like it's like there was a button that you switched on and you just like I don't [ __ ] care but yeah yeah no I mean no that's a button that I choose not to push you heard yeah exactly like you can go there quickly I choose to show restraint for a lot of reasons in my life and sometimes it's hard to you dig but where I'm at in life right now I choose positivity or all the other things that come out my way because I know how it is to be negative I was once that negative person that was very aggressive and ready to do something to to you over the minimal alistic of things and [ __ ] like that so I'm blessed to be here to try to be able to show restraint and so so the guy so the guy at the airport you guys on the same plane yeah we on the same plane so you don't have a private jet no I don't have a private jet I'm not a rich man come on Jimmy you made so much money over the years but anyway so you're in the plane what's he what's this guy saying to you like um I don't know man just [ __ ] happens I know just the started from the plane just know that what you see happen on so it starts on the plane you restrain yourself you're like all right cool my dog say whatever you want to say yeah when he gets to the airport I mean the escalator that's when I think he starts hitting you or something right yeah something like that he tried to do something like that and that's what we see man but like I said this is not something that I want to glorify it's not you think he knows who you are um if if he didn't he know now no I'm I'm sorry see sorry cuz some people just provoke I believe he was he was trolling a little bit and things like that which is cool you I mean I'm if if you in New York not time 10 you do know who I am so you know I believe it was a bit of that but God bless man hopefully that they all right hopefully the old man um cool you dig like are you spiritual cuz you mentioned God a lot man yeah I'm very spiritual very spiritual very spiritual I've been my whole family is spiritual and what does that mean in an American sense cuz um us as African for me it means a lot of different things um I was told what the church was as a young age as they drag you to church every Sunday your grandmother your moms and your family and things like that and you really don't understand what that is from that young but as you get older and you go through certain things and you make it through certain things you understand that there is a God and everybody has a relationship with their God different and sometimes going to church doesn't mean that you love your God any less or he loves you any less you dig and you say spiritual I'm very spiritual I say my prayers as much as I can sometime two three four times in a day you dig man doesn't take away from what I do and who I am because I'm still in the line for everything else everybody is in but I know every day that I'm able to wake up and every day I'm able to make a dollar and every day I'm able to keep living the life that I am I should be thankful you heard cuz that's not just me that's a higher vibration that's definitely a God you dig and I'm well aware that I've escaped many things in life that Lord knows I should not be here but then again I should be here cuz he put here for a reason he gives his toughest battles to his strongest people what the Bible say you heard and I've made it through some very tough battles which are minimal to some of the people that I had next to me in their battles you know what I mean so it's like we all got to figure it out Jim Jones thank you so much man and thanks to God for bringing you here man definitely I appreciate for making time for us bro thank you man we appreciate you tired when you got you I appreciate the fact that you could even make it man got any last question yeah man bro you said you've gone through some tough battles and you mentioned how you lost your dad at like 26 but also that you you pretty much raised yourself from the age of 15 you know from that relationship or lack of it like has it affected how you father your children 100% this made me the best father I could be but me my relationship with my father was always a great one even though he wasn't there because every day he wasn't I love them even more I wasn't one of them kids that was bitter you dig I understand that everybody went through something and at that age what he was going through there was a lot of drug addiction and I knew that from a very young age I understood what drugs was and how they were tearing up my family I never held that against my father and I was just blessed able to get back with him before he passed away so he could see that his son was making something out of himself at that time I was already signed to her uh we think we just got the Rockefeller deal so it was a very big deal for me to be able to get back with my father to show him that me somebody that you should be proud of and I know him looking down right now got be like damn I did that so you know and that's how I feel but then in turn TR here my son I don't you know I mean like I just you know mean I pride myself on making sure that I I turned my son into somebody that was way better than I could ever be you oh man yeah that's my guy shout out to you man is your son still wearing Crocs to you br he's a Croc guy you heard yeah Crocs for Life bro Crocs for Life jumping out the beam with a fresh paer Crocs on I don't want to stand him Jimmy before you go your top five rappers all time my top five rappers of all you got to give us your top five bro yeah Tupac definitely Jay-Z Drake um Drake he not like us by default of course um rock cam no Eminem No No whoa not even big you from NY and not to take nothing away from him he's extremely nice it's retardedly nice when it comes to rap but I listen to artists that kind of you know I mean do something for the life that I live and kind of what I've been through and most of these artist or artist that I'm talking about people that you know what I mean like [ __ ] better stop hating on my boy Drake all of a sudden all this Drake land I get it I get it you ain't like us let's not do that let's not forget the 15 years he been spanking [ __ ] around this [ __ ] all all all over this [ __ ] all the alley he been giving most of these artists that are now seeming to be turning on them let's you know let's not some of them gave him their best hits let's not forget the big picture here and [ __ ] like but what the hip-hop culture and this game is built on competition so I yeah but what is he with it you heard you better put your best foot forward but what has Drake given back to the culture oh that you so love here we go um what is he giving back to the culture I seen him take a lot of people on tour and turn them even richer than they already was I I seen him give a lot of people hits that they would have never had if he wouldn't have got on a record things for the culture that wouldn't have happened in turn records that we would have never knew about him to record that the culture love and things like that I mean he's not from here Canada from the hood I don't believe he owes America too much but the monster that give back to where he's from maybe we should ask about what has he done in Canada giving back to his community as opposed to what he giving back to the culture of the United States when this is not where he's from and I think that's the Divide right there now if we talk about what he's done in Canada and if it's not up to par then maybe we can talk about oh you dig but that's I think that's for the people of Canada you dig like yeah cuz but it's the people of America in the hood who made him of course you heard about but that he didn't grw up in America he didn't grew up here you heard so if you was an artist from Africa yeah like boy yeah do you think bnab boy has responsibility what do Niger of United stes n I'm taking it back home bro super duper big yes but that's what people then will call a culture vulture cuz you come into a space you know do what the people of that space do benefit from them is is is you understand what we doing like it's bro it's not because he's not take so he's not taking benab boy is Nigerian it's a Nigerian culture that is now popular in America so Drake took an American culture and enriched himself but what he's saying is that he doesn't owe anything to America cuz he's not from yet right okay right yeah I mean [ __ ] he's got no obligation Fair argument he got no obligation Fair argument yeah like he lived if he lived like I don't I don't that's how I see it you heard like that's how I see it you dig but all these [ __ ] we talking about are filthy filthy filthy rich off the opinions of men you heard what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never but what I'm just trying to tell you is how this game is played yeah you heard yeah geez man the more we talk the more they get paid the loser still gets paid too if there is a loser I don't think there's a loser when they all getting Millions off of this [ __ ] I don't think I mean like and I understand end all be all in the whole circle of it but I'm I've been in this [ __ ] for so long I'm miss you can see the politics of really get you to understand of what's really going on and [ __ ] like that this [ __ ] don't pay me a dollar to talk about it yeah hey man how tight you with Joe Bon he calls us those African guys with numbers oh yeah yeah yeah Jo this my guy buts what's up man he cool yeah he's an instigator definely know how to get under people's skin yeah I've known Joan for so long [ __ ] like that um I'm proud of him put himself in his position a whole new Lane to make a shitload of money um where it stem from the culture this what I'm talking about all the ancillary things that you need to get going on if are a artist of some type of success you got to use that to get where you want look at Joe used his startom and rap no matter what it was to able to finesse a whole new Lane of podcasting that true he's pretty big in damn near one of the forefathers of it from our culture right y'all started before him or after him we started after him but now we have more numbers than him hey doesn't matter no numbers do matter I mean no J and get num I'm cool with that but you won't be never be the considered the forefather of this whole no no no no no no no you dig 100% yeah it's Jo Joan numbers is cool I'm cool with that you get paid and I know what's a race you might be number one you heard yeah yeah but you still never be the forefather always going to have that under him like I've created this Lane for your how I feel about Ling hip hop yeah of course I got that under my belt that's mine y can never say that was yours at all yeah okay how much money you made off of it and [ __ ] like that at the end of the day you it's mine you heard Still My still mine so we always ask anybody any guest that we get on the show in closing what do you want to be remembered as man when it's all said and done I want I want to be remembered I want I want them to know that I gave more than I took because I was able to take a lot in my time amen just like that sh hey man I wish you put me on love and& hip-hop bro they got the African love of Hip Hop they got Jamaican love of Hip Hop they got they got any type of Love of Hip Hop we need the South African love of Hip Hop thanks Jim man shout out thank you bro I appreciate you man thank you we appreciate podcast and chill we out of here man boom peace welcome to Black excellenc do not fear for if you do just sip on some Grand and if you still do ask ourselves what would M [Music] do when they ask you do not fear for if you do just say an TV this is the the medicine of censorship this is the pill which one is that one podcast and chill	n but let's be honest Jimmy hip-hop hasn't involved bro when I was listening to Eminem what do you want mean what do you mean hip-hop hasn't evolved you guys are still rapping about the same stuff it don't you you missing the point of what hip-hop is yeah hip-hop has evolved to a point that you can be the music genres that you're told them about can be noticed you think that if there was a hip hop that I'm a piano would be noticed or afro Beach would be noticed think about that and not to take nothing away from y because you always have culture and yes that music might be big within the continent of Africa yeah right but to cross over to American Fame and commercialism you don't think that the hip-hop culture played a big part in that that's that that's a different argument now you want to have a different argument I'm telling you the semantics of where we going with this you dig like you talking about uh the the hip hop music is damn percentage that's how they want us to think when it's really not cuz we all uplifting each other you heard you think that the country music that's going on in the black people winning is not because of the hip-hop culture no no no I think no one is disputing that however so then when you say hip-hop numbers are down and damn for who no I'm	-2	8	6	let's be honest Jimmy hip-hop hasn't involved bro when I was listening to Eminem what do you want mean what do you mean hip-hop hasn't evolved you guys are still rapping about the same stuff it don't you you missing the point of what hip-hop is	I think no one is disputing that however so then when you say hip-hop numbers are down and damn for who	-5,8,4	0,2,5	-5	8	4	0	2	5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr730VmL-lk	4,054	rr730VmL-lk	2024-06-27 00:00:00	like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano no well Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he showed me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah just understand everybody going there my guy I understand the hate exactly what you're saying yeah bro what's his name I don't it's fine you remember those some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I ain't scared of nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that the dentist yeah dentist got me there what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never [Music] [Music] yo Jimmy you do not look like you want to be here bro like someone forced you to be it's like you have to do that par they're the biggest podcast in Africa you have to be there I never look like I want to be nowhere man you got to part of me but congratulations to yall having the biggest podcast in Africa that that that's very big Africa being one of the biggest continents in the world a lot of people over there shut up man why you so tired bro crazy weekend I've been working all weekend shows different states traveling Planes Trains automobiles you know how I be a little bit too much partying yeah road kill it's tough but what's up how y'all feeling I'm good bro I literally saw um I saw your video uh yesterday for your new single the one you shot in Miami two turn temp yeah yeah how you feel about it bro that [ __ ] is lit man looks like our Vibe bro cuz we've been to Miami myself and and my partner but we never like experienced the Miami night life we were playing in Florida yeah we're DJing in Florida but two South Africans like the diaspora then West Palm Beach as well yeah DJ also yeah like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano what it's a genre it's called a piano no no cuz I'm a piano even you heard like you saw he did the whole Keys thing it has nothing to do with the piano that's where it started but has nothing to do with it these days when when I met charlot man he said the exact same thing he's like oh so you're a podcaster I'm like yeah and then you DJs I'm like no I play I'm a Pian like you're a Pianist man you one talented [ __ ] n it's a genre of music man what kind of genre is that like it's like slowed down house music with a lot of s that African influence that's the only way I can describe it so it's a it's a mix of a marriage house yeah a marriage of house music which originated here at Chicago and stuff and then we slowed it down created a sub genre called guo where guys were sort of rapping but very minimalist raps called guo then the kids were born like in the 2000s late '90s then created a whole meshup of those two genres and it's called Piano cuz a a lot of Americans think it's um afro beats it's not afro beats yeah a lot of the hence I avoided saying afro beats cuz AFR beats is from Nigeria and amap piano is far from afro beat afro beat borrows from am piano now where is amap piano originated from South Africa from the hoods from the Cassis yeah but when I when I was looking at your video bro uh the only thing in my mind was like bro what's a night like out with Jim Jones CU that [ __ ] look lit there [ __ ] everywhere bro um please please describe a night out in Miami with Jim so let's say we going to Miami right now I mean some nice are better than others but been doing it so long it's kind of like the the bare minimum for us to do in Miami just having fun but it still work at the same time like every every I'm I'm not just going out partying for no reason ni like that was we knew what we was kind of getting into we wanted to film a video so we knew we was going to ramp it up a bit take it to the to the highest form going crazy as we could but that actually happened to fall on a big weekend um and one of my dudes was celebrating so everything kind of happened for a reason but yeah Miami could take you for take you for a few a few trips man like okay so so so me and you we get in the car right I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm in Miami I hate you cuz you got a house there you stay there right yeah I got I got I got cribs there so I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm by the strip you know that Miami strip right yeah yeah yeah I mean see that's the thing about Miami when you come to visit Miami that's where people are know at like the strip and things like that I guess stand by Collins and ocean driveing all that people that live there don't really do the strip like that like you just you dig people congregate usually at night time and all the spots that usually go on down there um okay so we got security obviously you got to roll around with security right um yeah I mean that' be the safest thing for me to do so we get out the cut with security when you get to the bouncers are they letting us in cuz it's Jim Jones or are they checking our IDs cuz they've been checking our IDs just to buy beer here bro Che ID everywhere yeah everywhere yeah no I I don't think I produced my ID in since I was a teenager at clubs but yeah you won't need your ID when you with me so we walking in right yeah we going to get in oh do we have a section do we they going to give us a section VIP yeah they going to give us a section we going to get some bottles and let the night ensue got this thing called Power Hour you go to the club maybe like 2:45 to 3:45 in and out no sweat so what's the what's the purpose of that exercise the Power Hour yeah like why would you be in the cloud for an hour why would I be in a club for 4 hours it's Fu I mean I've been part I've been partying since I've been 14 I've been making money to party since I've been 18 I'm kind of burnt out so at this point I try to wait till the club is at the most popping or lest moment which is usually that hour right there and I get to enjoy everything that happened tonight and leave out of there and not be all burnt out what what does your wife say bro cuz you're married man you're surrounded by all these girls like you know I mean I'm going to worry about the women yeah is minimal to the money worry about the money more than anything so so a woman doesn't like give you grief when you come home I yeah you get you get grief all the time if you in a relationship no matter what you do if you had a job on Wall Street you get home you're going to get grief no around it you heard yeah there's women everywhere unless you work in the LGBT Club then you know I mean even there you still going to go home and get like it's no way around it you're going to get you know I mean like yeah so you've never had like been home and you had to explain like yo no man I was just doing music video it's just work like I don't know that good you going to explain yourself in every relationship and things like that I got a good woman at home who understands a job I have and things like that so for the most part but for the most part I'm a very responsible respectable person when when I'm in the streets and when I do have to interact with females and things like that yeah anyway H ladies and gentlemen welcome to another special edition of podcasting chill so CU yeah I am here we're chilling with the [ __ ] Legend Kings of Harlem please make some noise for Jim Jones Jim I gotta say bro I gotta say bro I'm going to be honest with you when I find that your name was GMO geloo gelo I'm like I'm like Jim Jones losing some G points here man what the [ __ ] is that I'm Puerto Rican and a rubian my pops is Puerto Rican the word gelo means William in English is a Spanish Spanish name cuz you know what I was thinking I was thinking that guy who does the show late night you know the short guy who does like the interviews with um this late night comedian man what are the late night shows oh man not uh bad with these oh gosh the late night guy bro uhri or something not Corin O'Brien no not Trevor Noah the other American guy man like uh old new no he's like jimm Kimel Jimmy Kimel jimy he's got that he's got that short guy his name is julo oh I don't I don't I don't got got me messed up I don't even really watch TV like that bro okay I'll be out chasing the money I ain't even got time to do that and if and if I do got some time I'm trying to get a little bit of rest or I'm thinking about money [ __ ] is crucial out here right now you better get to your dollar a lot of [ __ ] about to happen and if you ain't got no coins boy you going to be [ __ ] up you ever been to uh Puerto Rico yeah I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times yeah but business not for the Heritage part of it so like you don't know where like your your your parents were at Familiar of the place where my father's from but I never really got to do the whole go to give with my family understand the roots understand you know I mean like I didn't get to get to that part of it but I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times you find like that's important like to know you it's definitely important I had this um I did an interview not too long ago about um how important the roots are and get to know where my family from know I mean so we'll start to do that pretty soon so so so your dad you know you know your dad right yeah he's passed away oh okay God bless rest in peace what happened to him he passed away yeah like was it um medical thing or yeah natural causes oh damn like when you young or um maybe when I was uh 23 24 oh damn bro SED to hear that man maybe 26 right before my son passed right before my God bless right before my son Bor bro but you like 47 right now I look good for 47y old man no homo you know what I mean thank you very much like what was what's keeping you looking so good is it the yoga yeah a lot of yoga a lot of Pilates I stay in shape um I'm very uh very big on Fitness um work out like five six times a week um it's one of the best ways to stay young and have better chances of living a long life is that why you do it or maybe there's other purpose like you know a lot of people are in gym for their mental health I mean it's very it's very it's very therapeutic I will say that but my main goal is to look good of course but to give me better chances of living forever bro so how you got into rap um I don't know correct me if I'm wrong right but you used to skip church and go to the train station to to rap like no I never skipped Church to go on the train station and rap I skipped Church to go to the train station and go play video games and run the streets and do everything a bad little kid did from the streets of hollow when we was like S8 and n and things like that I don't know if you know about anything about the subway system in New York but that's the pathway system that get you to all five burrows and we definitely was on the subway which maybe we shouldn't have been but we was a little uh loose um for me rapping actually rapping didn't start later on in life to actually uh C and um they I got a deal and things like that and that was the first time me myself really thought about actually raing cuz I'll be honest with you like um dipet I don't really know much about dipet however I know about you guys individually like Cameron old boy like one of my favorite songs uh jul sna had hear that that was Cameron and Jules and jwes he both was on he both old boy and heon yeah why don't you jump on those tracks man those tracks are massive they was already done I was there for the making of both of them incredible tracks yeah and then how did dipit start start like how did you guys start the whole movement um organically kiss him Harem gr up together um talented kids Cam and Mason BL sh was they already was doing music um Everybody gradu graduated high school I didn't get to go to college they went to college they got kicked out they got kicked out they come moved in with me from that that was a uh foundation for them to D into the music you've been in the game for like 20 30 odd years right been in the game for since 1997 how would you describe the different eras of like um hip-hop right especially now cuz um obviously we all know about the Kendrick Lamar song they're not like us but I didn't know how big it was until I landed in in in America and it's like it's like a movement the video yeah it's like huge it's massive bro yeah it's a big record Kendrick did that shout out to Kendrick shout out to my boy Drake but what do you think about like the evolution of hip-hop in all the different areas you've been a part of what do you mean what do I think about it it's a great thing to be a part of something that um you could only dream of everybody doesn't get a chance to be in this game um I've been fortunate enough to be here for so many genres and errors and seen so many people come and go I've watched the smallest artist to the biggest artist who you thow will be here forever and going um I got stories for days I can tell you about um how I feel about it I feel great I feel blessed you know what I mean I feel lucky this [ __ ] don't it's not promised and for me to still be here is definitely a blessing so in the 90s what was the vibe like man like like what in the 90s as far as what in hip-hop yeah it was it was different um 90s was a great era um one of my favorite errors um that was the era we first first came outside um started to get out deal uh very aggressive era uh no social media um cell phones were just being born um everything that you seen you was something that you could grab on to um artists had to go to the towns we couldn't just get on your phone and music you had to go get you couldn't just have access to it so it was a it was it it was a hunt um you had to touch the Tails kiss babies do radio everything like it was just a different ER but who was around like during that time when you who was around like Tupac was did you like meet Tupac Tupac I didn't get to meet Tupac um Tupac passed away what 95 was that yeah right in big in '97 um no I got to see Tupac do a few times in Harlem um that was dope but um not Tupac passed away before we got to get in the record game but I've seen a lot of a lot of artists in my time from a young age to old age we were partying in clubs as teenagers before we even got a record deal and things like that like we were in clubs since high school and [ __ ] like that so any interactions with Big L he was from Harlem right yeah shouts to Big Al Big Al was definitely from Harlem um 139th NFL Big L um I was one of the Cam's uh close friends um actually put cam on a dope record that started to give uh Cam and bloodshed and and her mcgree her was already popping too but guy gave them some notice when it came to R so when you come out like who's who's popping at that time is it git is it mop D it's way before G when we came out I was like Eminem just dropped oh [ __ ] this is Slim Shady not M like Slim Shady I I remember that that was like cam had dropped and Eminem had dropped DMX had dropped Nori had dropped um Big Pun had dropped lud Chris Luda had just started coming out um Nelly Nelly down down baby yeah shouts to coola love um yeah that type of error shouts to shouts to Fat Joe shouts to Buster they was already in it uh Nas was already in it Jay start going crazy that's when he just started taking over with the 1 million 2 million 3 million 4 um yeah very competitive very edgy um lot of the big dogs um had real roots in the streets um especially in the streets of New York so that put that put a real Mystique on everything when it came to the music um all the events with topnotch um it just was a different feel man it was a heavy heavy dope boy era um this was before the drug dealers wanted to be Rappers that's when the rappers wanted to be drug dealers you know what I mean and and that Arrow was was a very dope high impact trenel and Russian it was a was a great error bro I saw an interview you did correct me if I'm wrong I might be paraphrasing but you mentioned a place called the tunnel or something where everybody would be and you guys were [ __ ] [ __ ] in the bathrooms please please describe that manest cuz a place like that couldn't exist right now bro with all this woke [ __ ] I mean yeah and the cancel cult I would say it was probably the greatest Club The Hip hopers have seen and it was during the 90s era it was the Golden Era um in New York they got you had stories about like Studio 54 in that era when everybody used all the biggest of big used to go to Studio 54 well the tunnel was what Studio 54 was to that era to our era and it didn't make so many people and nationalities and genres and just everybody was like a big pumbo all for the sake of the culture you had some of the flyest models to some of the biggest drug dealers biggest gang bangers I mean every former elicit street life you could think of was in the spot along with the biggest artists and rappers and actors and models that you could find into all athletes um it would definitely like that um and was this like per invite or just like anybody could Rock up there nah you couldn't just rock up there for this is '90s entry was like $100 first of all $100 for a club that was the first time we ever heard of it and that was a lot of money back then especially we probably started in '94 going there teenager so $100 was sto a lot of money in New York at the time sneakers wasn't even costing $100 um to get in the club you definitely had to be connected to know somebody or you had to wait on a long line that usually was a block long um they had like an Express line you could pay $100 to get on Express line that'll get you to the door quicker and then you pay your entry fee um streets was blocked off you was a big dog you was able to bring your cars down there I was able to bring like four five of them if I wanted to um yeah the club was just it was different man pull up to the door security they taking people's shoes off they searching your jacket twisting people inside out like they about to go on the Rikers Island I got to I gave security High files I never took my shoes off and not since high school I when we used go in high school we used to get our shoes taken off and things like that make you feel like you going to the cental bookings and [ __ ] like that so what gave you that clout that allowed you to bring four cars in when nobody or you had to be a big dog to bring four cars in when you could just give them a high five instead of removing your shoes and you're young by then like what gives you that CL I was a big dog since a small pup bro J yeah man what gave you those you know credentials at such a young age to suppos all these people cuz Dr Tre was there yeah you putting in four cars not removing shoes I was a good Lord Biden citizen everybody love Jim Jones even even the girls like would you just rock up they say let's go to the bathroom that's it yeah now that well yeah there was a lot of that going on they had a uh the layout was different first of all the club was a block long a whole city block um wow there was like three other four other clubs within the club or spots that look like clubs um the main floor was humongously big the DJ was like a a lifeguard Tower in the middle of the club um you go upstairs they had a VR big V PE upstairs and then go through a door it open up to the bathroom the bathroom was like a unisex Club [ __ ] had a big ass bar in the middle of the bathroom uh bunch of stalls lined up um that [ __ ] was like a hotel inside Lions cocaine everything yeah they was going down a lot of sex was going down there a lot of a lot of drugs was going down in there um yeah the tunnel was definitely uh a landmark to New York City when it comes to the clubs I I definitely um I always think about that club um it did a lot for me in my life um it gave me a lot of imagination when it came to to the culture and the things I was seeing from a young age as to where I want to be and the direction I want to go in yeah we was going there since high school so when you seeing people like Mike Tyson and all these people coming in big cheer on and just having their way as a kid go out got to go to school the next morning you you in school thinking about that [ __ ] like w man this school [ __ ] [ __ ] this school [ __ ] I need some money and I need to go to the tunnel that's all I want to [ __ ] do that's wild man now can you imagine because we in sa right we're looking at all the videos that you guys are pulling out there like we're looking at this lifestyle and then you F Track to 2024 right M and the P didy thing breaks out right I mean i' rather not even to get into that yeah just don't I rather the do I don't you know I mean like it's not it's not my business oh I mean like this you heard God bless it's too much n yeah and it's not me to have an opinion on certain things cuz I ain't perfect I've been through my own [ __ ] in life and I see a lot of people that have even this doing too much just know that I ain't perfect so I choose not to talk on certain [ __ ] that you know what I mean a lot of other people people been talking about I let them keep doing the talk and I got other [ __ ] to work on I'm trying to work on me being a better person yeah I respect I respect that man but were ever part of any gang or like you sounding like the F never hey we don't the F in South Africa man only PS I'm just playing with you yeah I've been affiliated with the bloods in New York City um ENT Tre um yeah so crazy have you ever been to sa like have you ever been to Africa or um I've been to Africa where did you go uh gaban gille damn G to perform there um I went to perform there but uh got some great friends there they actually had ran the country at the time this is before the big yeah yeah overtaking and stuff like that but I had a ball out there I got to go to an island called Pony um that was a dope experience as they took me to the jungles I got to see some of the indigenous people um it was like a a real um life Awakening like and I got to see how also the rich people live out there also like I got to see both sides like that you know what I mean it was it was a great experience I out there for like a week um I haven't been back since but yeah it was dope you never been to South Africa never been to South Africa bro so the reason why I asked that is because like yo bro like American culture has infiltrated South Africa like you can't believe like you know we got people worshiping you guys you know Jim Jones rappers and everything you so we've got rappers who rap just like you and youd say they're like Bloods and Crips but they've never they've never left sa you know cuz that's how influential uh the culture is right but from you when you see or hear that like what do you guys think like do you think is like some [ __ ] like or like leave don't don't follow the gang life you know what I mean oh as far as that is concerned um there's two sides to that this what you do as a gang member that turns it into something that becomes a crime or whatever that end but the Brotherhood part of it is what the most of us joined up for when we coming up in the hood and need that Brotherhood lean on somebody is that type of camaraderie that pretty much stood for and there's a lot of other great attributes that comes with affiliation or you becoming a part of a gang um it gets twisted up because we all come up in these urban communities and our back is against the wall we don't have no opportunities um it's very dormant uh we on top of each other so naturally testosterone testosterone wins in a lot of these situations where these kids find s in bad situations and for that I would tell people to kind of stay away from this type of life um I don't want to oppose my will we all going to experience what we going to experience but I can't tell you the consequences to this type of Lifestyle could be very dear you heard ethal a lot of people don't get to make it where I made it and Escape that lifestyle that could have put me away or could have put me in the dirt I mean so here as a Living testament to tell you that these consequences are terrible the odds on you making it out of that life in a positive manner are very slim I mean but if you are in that life and you taking it as a Brotherhood and try to uplift your brothers I know there's a lot of people around you that are doing a lot of [ __ ] that that that that that's very crazy you know what I mean if you're a part of that and you got the positive minder then you try to uplift your brother and instill some positivity within them because it's very cold out here so I've always been curious bro like so when that when you you you start getting immersed you know or Affiliated in the gang life how does that affect the conversation at home with your parents like your mom your dad and just the domestic you know Dynamics I a't grow my parents I was a grown man since I was like 15 I made my own money since I was like 16 my grandmother left me in high school man I was raising my Sisters by myself in the projects I hustle every I ever got in my life that's why music saved my life I was so grateful to be able to be next to cam and him getting a deal at such a very young age to be able to still be making money off that [ __ ] right now you were U anr for Warner uh music group yeah I was the director of anr for Warner Music Group um years ago uh shouts to Kevin L shouts to Leo Cohen for giving me the opportunity um great opportunity uh I excelled at it extremely very young with a lot of power but didn't understand what I had at hand um didn't have too many people in my corner that were telling me the things that I should have been doing with that type of position as opposed to some type of weird way be hating you know I mean so that's what happened but as you get older you learn you learn and you move on who did you discover while you were in that position uh I would tell you a story I I know I've helped try s uh they come to tra songs that you know today he's always in he's always in we know why no n but he was a young kid at the time and uh they were actually going to cut him from the label we had a big uh um it's like uh one of them uh some events they be doing not the talent shows the uh well was something like that all the artists had to come perform and then they pretty much didn't know that they was on a Cho and block at the time when I was an executive and and he was one of the artists that they were going to cut and I remember Kevin L specifically ask me yo what we should do with him I'm about to cut him I don't know what to do with him and when I heard him uh singing and I saw him perform I was like this is this is one artist you should keep and did that and now we all tra songs on so many dope ass records is it true you could have signed Drake yeah I had a chance to sign uh I had a chance to do business with Drake um through Allan grum blat um when I was doing business at cotch um it was a different era I didn't understand what Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he show me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah understand everybody going at my guy I understand the hate man the hate is so phenomenal it's just how this game go man this game is so tricky man these [ __ ] just like females in this game we ain't going to get into that man there's a lot of uh but wait wait wait so so with Drake like are you are you seeing him perform like try songs or like you just heard of the guy just a conversation Allan called me about signing a kid let me hear some of his music um and I was like the kid know how to rap but I don't know what to do with him his image is crazy and him couple years later heard him on a Wheezy mixtape going crazy I was like wow this kid is about to go wham inside of this business and he sure did and you're know trying to call Weezy like yo man I gotta get that kid or something n he was already signed a young money and jcole did you miss on jcole as well I could have signed J Cole bro jcole was in the studio with me every day and at that point jcole I he's he remind me of a knockoff Drake and not to say it like that but that's who he sounded like he came to my studio every day rapping to these Drake beats rapping like Drake Cadence like Drake he could rap his ass off yeah you heard yeah but it was already a drake out there he had the Caesar it was different like two lightskinn [ __ ] might not K when raing the same but you never know what you got in front of you man you dig and those are lessons I I've took with me to moving forward when I see artists and and I hate artists I always give them more than just hearing just just I got to I got to I gotta try to capture the whole picture I make sure I just don't you mean so I don't miss nothing else because I've missed a few people and I've helped a few people um gain a lot of success in in my time in this industry whether it been by me having a meeting with them or me having influence on them or you know I mean so you know and there's never like any animosity like Jake Cole or Drake never came up to be like yo you could have signed me look at me now bro I mean me and Drake is cool as [ __ ] um I see J Cole I don't think he I mean I don't think that's no he some [ __ ] he might want to keep to himself not to be like that sh the co he not that type of artist he's not a you I mean yeah you did I look I look at as we can see I want to mention an artist who like I'm really fond of like I think this guy's [ __ ] amazing musically talented everything that he touched like turned to Gold who's that uh kid k bro K Cy yeah yeah did you help him with his career yeah I birth K Cy wow J me how so bro bir them nobody would have know who K Cy was at all if I a jump on this remix record but it wasn't even remix he wasn't even a nobody like I tell a story all the time I had a inter used to work for me said he got some dudes that do videos they would like to do a video for me told them come let me see they work they show me their videos the first video they showed me was of the kid Cy record he's on the top of a roof some simple video the record sound more wavy than the opportunity for them to do a video I'm like well if you'll get me the beat to this record I Remix this record and then y'all can shoot the video to that record wow and that's what they did and then um the radio station ripped the record off of YouTube and start playing it at Hot 97 and K Cy was born bro why do you think especially about kid Cy cuz from him when I listen to music right it wasn't really no no other kid Cy record besides the one that I was on yeah man he's not in they don't play his records where I be at at all not to be funny wow bro and we listen to him like all that day and night you know remember only record I know yeah it's the only record I know unless it's like a pop record that everybody know and I and I'm even not paying attention to it but he don't his records don't get played nowhere that i' be at not like that unless I go into a different farm and that's the type of music they playing in one of these funny clubs that play fist pump music and pop music he's not into like you dig like they don't play his music in the clubs I'll be at maybe in Vegas and [ __ ] like that but that's not like they not pumping this [ __ ] in live they not pumping this [ __ ] in Atlanta they not pumping this [ __ ] down the Stafford room or you know what I mean like they I'm not saying nothing like that but I don't hear it in the strip clubs I don't hear like you know what I mean so but he's a very successful person with some of the greats like Kanye to put him in a position to win and [ __ ] like that and I think he's way more better as an actor than he is a musician and that's just my POS that's just my opinion he did I seen him in the movie uh about the race car [ __ ] where he was F the playe like he got a lot of Charisma and [ __ ] like that on on camera for what I could see and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean bro I mean for you as Jim Jones to to see these kids you're introduced to them by an intern and then to hop onto that song it's something selfless you know to just give these unknown kids an opportunity of sharing a song with you where do you think that selflessness comes from how was that unknown kid I'm still an unknown kid anytime I get an opportunity that's an opportunity I should be able to give to somebody else bro the fact that you could even come to our podcast shout out man yeah man you don't even know us exactly what you're saying yeah know us what's his name I don't it's fine you know remember those kids who who did the video for him anyway you know remember I remember like that kids that got the biggest African podcast I'm definitely going to know like them is my guys right family right there appreciate I really mean that that sincerely and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean I I bump in too many people in my life and been across too many people in my journey to actually remember everybody's name but the face and the cause and I mean BR I want to understand right the first time you came up with the concept For Love and Hip Hop where were you what was happening that um that was something like uh me and Christy she had opportunity to do uh her own reality show um and actually fell through and that kind of she was kind of she wanted to do that I can see she was eager about doing that when it fell through kind you know I mean [ __ ] with her mood and [ __ ] like that so so so so so the initial concept what was it was just Chrissy just showing like what's life the initial concept was about she had her own thing going on about a group of women that was supposed to do a reality show had nothing to do with me yeah that [ __ ] fell through she lost that opportunity to end up not going people have been begging me to do reality TV for past couple years at the time and I and you reality TV gold man I refused to do it yeah and then when that happened I was like all right I got I'll do this for you and we'll make it about you and females that have to that are involved with artist such as myself and show what the relationship side is when you're dealing with a high-profile artist and you know what I mean how so that's how that started bro and that thing became a monster super super monster like it's still big till this day bro 100% so do you have like uh ownership in that we we were link a all that you know at that time when maybe the second season we just in a position where we refuse to compromise our dignity for anyone or any dollar and sometimes it be like that you know what I mean um but ain't no stress off my back T my hat to him you no but but but we got to talk about that because you see like this podcast um it's blackowned right it's just me and a couple of other people that are involved in the podcast right and we're always striving for ownership so a lot of um Brands and investors have come to try to buy the podcast and we say know cuz like we believe in ownership and telling the story the way we want to tell it right so what went wrong in that because as a hustler I believe like that's your also end goal MH um it wasn't something that I was just a lot of different layers and [ __ ] like that and I was too worried about doing other things and we had the opportunity to gain all ownership 50% of the whole TV show and all that but it still wasn't worth GE bro that's insane you just let go like that yeah bro it's your brain child bro there is no Love and& Hip Hop without you bro I still got a brain you heard yeah those are for people that don't have a brain that lack creativity people that steal things from you lack what you don't have remember that yeah whether it's money whether it's creativity whatever it is they lack what you don't have ultimately they steal from you you heard I mean we didn't even know C beef if it wasn't for Love and& Hip Hop right yeah yeah yeah definitely yeah bro you gave birth to so many many people man like VI their careers that's the god in me that's why I'm always going to be good yeah she man so any other shows that you're working on like in the pipeline that you want to do I was telling you I working on um a late night show a late night um a late night variety show live in studio audience hopefully we'll be filming in about 40 to 60 days um beautiful concept I do I do believe people going enjoy the show um like I was saying I can't do um a podcast is too personal for me and [ __ ] like that and me watching these podcasts um dealing with these artists me myself don't have the temperament for it you know what I mean um I [ __ ] I T my hat to y'all to have to deal with artists such as myself cuz you never know what type of mood they going to come in you know what I me some of these artists have a air to them where they feel like they better than most and they would never sit and have tea with the with the maintenance guy you heard me myself me going to maintenance guy going to smoke blunts before I get on stage [Music] I live my life and and and currently uh before we let you go man what do you think about the state of hip-hop cuz like statistically numbers wise it's not looking good man e beats has played all over New York now there's now the pianos this is this is what they want you to do this is how to get us to go against each other it's all under the same culture umbrella it's afro music ref I'm a piano I'm a piano explain that what do you mean by that bro yeah R&B what do you mean by that ultimately it's all from under the same origin and creativity of the same person from the same colors is all our thing n but let's be honest Jimmy hip-hop hasn't involved bro when I was listening to Eminem what do you want mean what do you mean hip-hop hasn't evolved you guys are still rapping about the same stuff it don't you you missing the point of what hip-hop is yeah hip-hop has evolved to a point that you can be the music genres that you're told them about can be noticed you think that if there was a hip hop that I'm a piano would be noticed or afro Beach would be noticed think about that and not to take nothing away from y because you always have culture and yes that music might be big within the continent of Africa yeah right but to cross over to American Fame and commercialism you don't think that the hip-hop culture played a big part in that that's that that's a different argument now you want to have a different argument I'm telling you the semantics of where we going with this you dig like you talking about uh the the hip hop music is damn percentage that's how they want us to think when it's really not cuz we all uplifting each other you heard you think that the country music that's going on in the black people winning is not because of the hip-hop culture no no no I think no one is disputing that however so then when you say hip-hop numbers are down and damn for who no I'm talking about I know what you're talking about but damn for who tell me who it's down for because I'm still making the money I make yeah I do believe there's still a lot of artist that's making a shitload of money that they make I don't think it went down for them yeah you know what I mean but I understand what you're talking about they say the numbers and then rock and roll genre might be up like I don't really you heard like that's I'm into this business you heard and it's always up for us you heard cuz this is a business we make money out of nothing it's never a downside to this okay and and that's why I'm saying I think we're having two different conversations here cuz the conversation I'm having is I'm having I'm having right is that in as much as he's saying yeah the numbers are down because they orchestrated and whatever I get that right but also that's why I asked do you think Hip-hop has evolved cuz I grew up on hip-hop right and the same things um quote unquote you guys were rapping about in the '90s how can hipop how can hip hop evolved in the same thing that Africa been Africa been going on since the '90s aren't y going still going through the same thing we are huh we are so how could the music evolve when the music ref the time ah okay get you real stories what you want us to rap about [ __ ] that that we don't have ah we talk about [ __ ] we dream about all the time that's the good The Good Life the colorin the Ros we talk about but the truth is how the music going to change when our position hasn't changed when we still going through the same [ __ ] we've been going through okay and y'all being from Africa should know that more than we know that yeah that's facts that's fact go about that own Cod yeah yeah yeah yeah you know are bro that's a valid fact but how do you feel man like you've come from an era where you guys when what you you said in your raps I mean evolved as far as dition as far as what we rap about cuz we still stuck in the same place but as a business it has evolved to one of big time yeah yeah biggest big time money making machines you can attach yourself to this made some of the richest individuals whether you're the rapper the lawyer the executive like that's true you know what I mean the supply chain but then I think that's why you know when you get the likes of a wz coming out and Kendrick Lamar they stand out like a sore thumb because like they are rapping about but that's what music is about to stand out for those who that want to look like everybody they don't get nowhere why you think Dip set was so successful sucessful yeah because we stood out on purpose we don't want to look like or H or sound like no one else m we want yall to above all see us when we walk in the building and hear us when we get on that [ __ ] mic you heard why would you guys the diplomats I never like where did that come from the diplomats the name the diplomats yeah we diplomats oh ah okay that sounded cool no we diplomats we are Harlem diplomats and we take it as that you heard we go to the Embassy when we land in countries you heard all right okay okay okay I I sort of get that bro so in the business and how you still making money right now like from music just like how is it royalties damn you asking a lot of questions bro no I want to know bro I'm so I've got so many questions I want to ask you bro I'll tell you this music is supposed to be used so you can make as much ancillary dollars as you can because the music ain't promised everybody 15 minutes of fame ranges from a small 15 minutes of fame to a run like we having within that minute the 15 minutes the fame you better do a lot of other things to secure your bag because music is not going to be thing you be able to get paid off forever unless you're the DRS and the J that's not even 1% that's you know what I mean so you think about that so you better have some hustle you better learn how to you better have some business sense you better put your credit in order you better do a few things to secure you if you are artist [ __ ] leverage powerful penda yeah man how do you feel man when these kids these days wrap up about you know trying to act tough and rap about stuff they never done like you guys red about stuff you lived I mean I do believe a lot of these kids are going through a lot of [ __ ] that we went through and then a lot of the kids are talking about [ __ ] that they see but most of the kids are all growing up in the same community that all of that [ __ ] is going on so who tells them they don't have the right to talk about [ __ ] that they're not doing when that's still [ __ ] that they're seeing oh sure Ah that's powerful but the problem I have a problem when they rapping like they did it but they just R from somebody else's Vantage Point understand that but most of these artists that you've seen in the game some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I pretty firm in his in in his music that I'm a believer that he did some of that [ __ ] he can talk about just me I don't know you possibilities are possibilities but some things just seem correct you know mean I can't tell you for sure cuz it is music you know what I mean but some things seem correct [ __ ] man bro you got to come out to man you got to you know we haven't had a proper uh hip-hop concert in sa like since 50 N since you are come on back to the city does concerts man ah those are for old people empd the bigest artist in South Africa right now Hip-Hop Hip-Hop uh there's a guy called nastyc but nesty came here he doesn't know know you f poopa who's that nah F poopa Nigerian West African artist massive he used to pop not now for real still massive bigger than like ber boyo still it's different type of music oh stadiums is 50 60,000 people like what is this following this gu what's his name f poop F poop I don't know him bro he's from Nigeria yeah yeah yeah yeah Nigerian Prett pretty big yeah humongous bro how big was was 50 Cent bro like during his Reign man like how big was 50 Cent [ __ ] retardedly big it wasn't nothing bigger than him was Drake before Drake was dring he was oh [ __ ] he did it like it was like 50 was on a run that he never even touched the club bro like [ __ ] never seen him in the club he only did Arenas I never knew too many artist that just did that you dig like the [ __ ] was super massive every [ __ ] Rec he came out with was was going platinum and I'm just telling you the facts you heard and I always got to speak factual no matter how I feel about a person the [ __ ] was on top Super on top it was no way to knock him off his d i remember Jay-Z dropped the diss track on you did you guys resolve that beef I think you were not happy with him as the president of De jam oh man um we never really had a beef um we had some feuds back and forth through the situations that were going on over other people um and me being who I am I had to hold my ground um but to know that he actually talked about me in multiple of his records mean that I was pretty big in his eyes you dig true true cuz I didn't hear him talk about too many people in his career and if he did talk you talk about you on the record that meant something you know what I mean and I was then so for me that I I I took that like what it was like you dig like yeah J doesn't respond to take the time out to say my name you heard if I'm if I'm not that big of a deal to you you would never ever a am I am I right talk about a person you heard true it's it's a form of respect and ackowledge 100% am I right in saying a lot of [ __ ] are scared of Jay-Z bro cuz we interviewed Dam Ian I don't I don't know I'm not a lot of [ __ ] you heard I'm a man so I couldn't I I couldn't tell you that you heard I ain't scared to nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that that that dentist yeah the dentist got me there you heard you can walk in you could walk we about to fight right now you a dentist walk in you got it you got it like you got it bow down you got it I don't want no smoke let me get out of here M fact word Jimmy before you go man uh what beefs did you have so you had something beef with Jay-Z right no man I just told you we had some feuds stemming from that's beef bro stemming from other things that going on um my problem like it was all part of Us coming up in the game and things were happening we were signing a Rockefeller cam was sign a Rockefeller actually then we got opportunity to Diplomat records um the split between uh Jay and Dame came um artist took sides some took the J side some took the the Dame side which side were you on we was on the Dame side OB Dash yeah Dame Dash that's do you think Dame Dash is misunderstood bro huh you think Dame Dash is misunderstood um too smart for his own good I get that yeah if you had the opportunity again you sometimes being the smartest person in the room could be held against you especially when you want everybody to know that you're the smartest person in the room yeah yeah yeah and I get given a second chance would you still side with Dam never you wouldn't never whoa I never signed a d at all that was no no no like sided with him took his side oh give a second chance I wouldn't have sided with none of them I would we would haveed our [ __ ] business but you learned that with age yeah you heard we had no business butting into that because it wasn't a street beef and this wasn't some [ __ ] that had to do with us ultimately we were holding our [ __ ] down and [ __ ] like that but business-wise if we would if we knew what we knew now we would let them get into that they self y'all can handle that because we got records to put out and music to make and we got our own record label to run you dig and this my hinder what we got going on by us taking sides and that's why I tell people now even when people seeing all the Diplomat [ __ ] like y bro don't don't get in to taking sides with me and my bro because you never know how that might end up and if it end up to a point where we do figure out our situation then I'm looking at you funny now me and you got forever you heard you dig and there are plenty of people that did that and plenty people that didn't and plenty people that showed the same amount of love that he showed to me that it showed to cam when we were going through our imaginary situations and [ __ ] like that cuz it's all imaginary when you know you can figure figure it out now it's a saying that like don't just be in people's business when especially when they've beef and take sides cuz and I I had to learn that a lot I had took me a long time to learn that because of how we come up in the Cod that they supposedly treat us in teach us in the street and [ __ ] like that but sometimes that's not the smallest thing that we can do and then uh push a t did you ever beef with him nah that was some [ __ ] that we was on record um he did some [ __ ] I did some [ __ ] you dig that was it I never followed that I didn't even know did you know there's a pusher T me I ain't got no just know I don't know I know you're from I know you're from Africa and [ __ ] like that but people don't play with me yeah for real and I don't I don't play with people this ain't no playground you heard this is the street it's two ways don't get caught up in a yellow line it's going to be hard to cross bro yeah you heard no I don't trust me I'm from Africa but I saw what happened at the airport so that [ __ ] escalated yeah [ __ ] that was self-defense man God yo bro it looked like that guy was just messing with you bro I wish that could have never happened cuz I was trying to avoid that by all cause but [ __ ] happened sometime man you dig and definitely not not going to allow anybody do anything to me at all bro when I saw that video right like I don't know I just met you today right but I saw when you lifted that guy from the escalator threw him down he literally just went on survival mode bro like it's like there was a button that you switched on and you just like I don't [ __ ] care but yeah yeah no I mean no that's a button that I choose not to push you heard yeah exactly like you can go there quickly I choose to show restraint for a lot of reasons in my life and sometimes it's hard to you dig but where I'm at in life right now I choose positivity or all the other things that come out my way because I know how it is to be negative I was once that negative person that was very aggressive and ready to do something to to you over the minimal alistic of things and [ __ ] like that so I'm blessed to be here to try to be able to show restraint and so so the guy so the guy at the airport you guys on the same plane yeah we on the same plane so you don't have a private jet no I don't have a private jet I'm not a rich man come on Jimmy you made so much money over the years but anyway so you're in the plane what's he what's this guy saying to you like um I don't know man just [ __ ] happens I know just the started from the plane just know that what you see happen on so it starts on the plane you restrain yourself you're like all right cool my dog say whatever you want to say yeah when he gets to the airport I mean the escalator that's when I think he starts hitting you or something right yeah something like that he tried to do something like that and that's what we see man but like I said this is not something that I want to glorify it's not you think he knows who you are um if if he didn't he know now no I'm I'm sorry see sorry cuz some people just provoke I believe he was he was trolling a little bit and things like that which is cool you I mean I'm if if you in New York not time 10 you do know who I am so you know I believe it was a bit of that but God bless man hopefully that they all right hopefully the old man um cool you dig like are you spiritual cuz you mentioned God a lot man yeah I'm very spiritual very spiritual very spiritual I've been my whole family is spiritual and what does that mean in an American sense cuz um us as African for me it means a lot of different things um I was told what the church was as a young age as they drag you to church every Sunday your grandmother your moms and your family and things like that and you really don't understand what that is from that young but as you get older and you go through certain things and you make it through certain things you understand that there is a God and everybody has a relationship with their God different and sometimes going to church doesn't mean that you love your God any less or he loves you any less you dig and you say spiritual I'm very spiritual I say my prayers as much as I can sometime two three four times in a day you dig man doesn't take away from what I do and who I am because I'm still in the line for everything else everybody is in but I know every day that I'm able to wake up and every day I'm able to make a dollar and every day I'm able to keep living the life that I am I should be thankful you heard cuz that's not just me that's a higher vibration that's definitely a God you dig and I'm well aware that I've escaped many things in life that Lord knows I should not be here but then again I should be here cuz he put here for a reason he gives his toughest battles to his strongest people what the Bible say you heard and I've made it through some very tough battles which are minimal to some of the people that I had next to me in their battles you know what I mean so it's like we all got to figure it out Jim Jones thank you so much man and thanks to God for bringing you here man definitely I appreciate for making time for us bro thank you man we appreciate you tired when you got you I appreciate the fact that you could even make it man got any last question yeah man bro you said you've gone through some tough battles and you mentioned how you lost your dad at like 26 but also that you you pretty much raised yourself from the age of 15 you know from that relationship or lack of it like has it affected how you father your children 100% this made me the best father I could be but me my relationship with my father was always a great one even though he wasn't there because every day he wasn't I love them even more I wasn't one of them kids that was bitter you dig I understand that everybody went through something and at that age what he was going through there was a lot of drug addiction and I knew that from a very young age I understood what drugs was and how they were tearing up my family I never held that against my father and I was just blessed able to get back with him before he passed away so he could see that his son was making something out of himself at that time I was already signed to her uh we think we just got the Rockefeller deal so it was a very big deal for me to be able to get back with my father to show him that me somebody that you should be proud of and I know him looking down right now got be like damn I did that so you know and that's how I feel but then in turn TR here my son I don't you know I mean like I just you know mean I pride myself on making sure that I I turned my son into somebody that was way better than I could ever be you oh man yeah that's my guy shout out to you man is your son still wearing Crocs to you br he's a Croc guy you heard yeah Crocs for Life bro Crocs for Life jumping out the beam with a fresh paer Crocs on I don't want to stand him Jimmy before you go your top five rappers all time my top five rappers of all you got to give us your top five bro yeah Tupac definitely Jay-Z Drake um Drake he not like us by default of course um rock cam no Eminem No No whoa not even big you from NY and not to take nothing away from him he's extremely nice it's retardedly nice when it comes to rap but I listen to artists that kind of you know I mean do something for the life that I live and kind of what I've been through and most of these artist or artist that I'm talking about people that you know what I mean like [ __ ] better stop hating on my boy Drake all of a sudden all this Drake land I get it I get it you ain't like us let's not do that let's not forget the 15 years he been spanking [ __ ] around this [ __ ] all all all over this [ __ ] all the alley he been giving most of these artists that are now seeming to be turning on them let's you know let's not some of them gave him their best hits let's not forget the big picture here and [ __ ] like but what the hip-hop culture and this game is built on competition so I yeah but what is he with it you heard you better put your best foot forward but what has Drake given back to the culture oh that you so love here we go um what is he giving back to the culture I seen him take a lot of people on tour and turn them even richer than they already was I I seen him give a lot of people hits that they would have never had if he wouldn't have got on a record things for the culture that wouldn't have happened in turn records that we would have never knew about him to record that the culture love and things like that I mean he's not from here Canada from the hood I don't believe he owes America too much but the monster that give back to where he's from maybe we should ask about what has he done in Canada giving back to his community as opposed to what he giving back to the culture of the United States when this is not where he's from and I think that's the Divide right there now if we talk about what he's done in Canada and if it's not up to par then maybe we can talk about oh you dig but that's I think that's for the people of Canada you dig like yeah cuz but it's the people of America in the hood who made him of course you heard about but that he didn't grw up in America he didn't grew up here you heard so if you was an artist from Africa yeah like boy yeah do you think bnab boy has responsibility what do Niger of United stes n I'm taking it back home bro super duper big yes but that's what people then will call a culture vulture cuz you come into a space you know do what the people of that space do benefit from them is is is you understand what we doing like it's bro it's not because he's not take so he's not taking benab boy is Nigerian it's a Nigerian culture that is now popular in America so Drake took an American culture and enriched himself but what he's saying is that he doesn't owe anything to America cuz he's not from yet right okay right yeah I mean [ __ ] he's got no obligation Fair argument he got no obligation Fair argument yeah like he lived if he lived like I don't I don't that's how I see it you heard like that's how I see it you dig but all these [ __ ] we talking about are filthy filthy filthy rich off the opinions of men you heard what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never but what I'm just trying to tell you is how this game is played yeah you heard yeah geez man the more we talk the more they get paid the loser still gets paid too if there is a loser I don't think there's a loser when they all getting Millions off of this [ __ ] I don't think I mean like and I understand end all be all in the whole circle of it but I'm I've been in this [ __ ] for so long I'm miss you can see the politics of really get you to understand of what's really going on and [ __ ] like that this [ __ ] don't pay me a dollar to talk about it yeah hey man how tight you with Joe Bon he calls us those African guys with numbers oh yeah yeah yeah Jo this my guy buts what's up man he cool yeah he's an instigator definely know how to get under people's skin yeah I've known Joan for so long [ __ ] like that um I'm proud of him put himself in his position a whole new Lane to make a shitload of money um where it stem from the culture this what I'm talking about all the ancillary things that you need to get going on if are a artist of some type of success you got to use that to get where you want look at Joe used his startom and rap no matter what it was to able to finesse a whole new Lane of podcasting that true he's pretty big in damn near one of the forefathers of it from our culture right y'all started before him or after him we started after him but now we have more numbers than him hey doesn't matter no numbers do matter I mean no J and get num I'm cool with that but you won't be never be the considered the forefather of this whole no no no no no no no you dig 100% yeah it's Jo Joan numbers is cool I'm cool with that you get paid and I know what's a race you might be number one you heard yeah yeah but you still never be the forefather always going to have that under him like I've created this Lane for your how I feel about Ling hip hop yeah of course I got that under my belt that's mine y can never say that was yours at all yeah okay how much money you made off of it and [ __ ] like that at the end of the day you it's mine you heard Still My still mine so we always ask anybody any guest that we get on the show in closing what do you want to be remembered as man when it's all said and done I want I want to be remembered I want I want them to know that I gave more than I took because I was able to take a lot in my time amen just like that sh hey man I wish you put me on love and& hip-hop bro they got the African love of Hip Hop they got Jamaican love of Hip Hop they got they got any type of Love of Hip Hop we need the South African love of Hip Hop thanks Jim man shout out thank you bro I appreciate you man thank you we appreciate podcast and chill we out of here man boom peace welcome to Black excellenc do not fear for if you do just sip on some Grand and if you still do ask ourselves what would M [Music] do when they ask you do not fear for if you do just say an TV this is the the medicine of censorship this is the pill which one is that one podcast and chill	get you real stories what you want us to rap about [ __ ] that that we don't have ah we talk about [ __ ] we dream about all the time that's the good The Good Life the colorin the Ros we talk about but the truth is how the music going to change when our position hasn't changed when we still going through the same [ __ ] we've been going through okay and y'all being from Africa should know that more than we know that yeah that's facts that's fact go about that own Cod yeah yeah yeah yeah you know are bro that's a valid fact but how do you feel man like you've come from an era where you guys when what you you said in your raps I mean evolved as far as dition as far as what we rap about cuz we still stuck in the same place but as a business it has evolved to one of big time yeah yeah biggest big time money making machines you can attach yourself to this made some of the richest individuals whether you're the rapper the lawyer the executive like that's true you know what I mean the supply chain but then I think that's why you know when you get the likes of a wz coming out and Kendrick Lamar they stand out like a sore thumb because like they are rapping about but that's what music is about to stand out for	2	8	6	get you real stories what you want us to rap about, that that we don't have ah we talk about, we dream about all the time that's the good The Good Life the colorin the Ros we talk about but the truth is how the music going to change when our position hasn't changed when we still going through the same, okay and y'all being from Africa should know that more than we know that yeah that's facts that's fact go about that own Cod yeah yeah yeah yeah you know are bro that's a valid fact	but how do you feel man like you've come from an era where you guys when what you you said in your raps I mean evolved as far as dition as far as what we rap about cuz we still stuck in the same place but as a business it has evolved to one of big time yeah yeah biggest big time money making machines you can attach yourself to this made some of the richest individuals whether you're the rapper the lawyer the executive like that's true you know what I mean the supply chain but then I think that's why you know when you get the likes of a wz coming out and Kendrick Lamar they stand out like a sore thumb because like they are rapping about but that's what music is about to stand out for	3,5,6	2,4,5	3	5	6	2	4	5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr730VmL-lk	4,054	rr730VmL-lk	2024-06-27 00:00:00	like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano no well Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he showed me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah just understand everybody going there my guy I understand the hate exactly what you're saying yeah bro what's his name I don't it's fine you remember those some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I ain't scared of nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that the dentist yeah dentist got me there what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never [Music] [Music] yo Jimmy you do not look like you want to be here bro like someone forced you to be it's like you have to do that par they're the biggest podcast in Africa you have to be there I never look like I want to be nowhere man you got to part of me but congratulations to yall having the biggest podcast in Africa that that that's very big Africa being one of the biggest continents in the world a lot of people over there shut up man why you so tired bro crazy weekend I've been working all weekend shows different states traveling Planes Trains automobiles you know how I be a little bit too much partying yeah road kill it's tough but what's up how y'all feeling I'm good bro I literally saw um I saw your video uh yesterday for your new single the one you shot in Miami two turn temp yeah yeah how you feel about it bro that [ __ ] is lit man looks like our Vibe bro cuz we've been to Miami myself and and my partner but we never like experienced the Miami night life we were playing in Florida yeah we're DJing in Florida but two South Africans like the diaspora then West Palm Beach as well yeah DJ also yeah like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano what it's a genre it's called a piano no no cuz I'm a piano even you heard like you saw he did the whole Keys thing it has nothing to do with the piano that's where it started but has nothing to do with it these days when when I met charlot man he said the exact same thing he's like oh so you're a podcaster I'm like yeah and then you DJs I'm like no I play I'm a Pian like you're a Pianist man you one talented [ __ ] n it's a genre of music man what kind of genre is that like it's like slowed down house music with a lot of s that African influence that's the only way I can describe it so it's a it's a mix of a marriage house yeah a marriage of house music which originated here at Chicago and stuff and then we slowed it down created a sub genre called guo where guys were sort of rapping but very minimalist raps called guo then the kids were born like in the 2000s late '90s then created a whole meshup of those two genres and it's called Piano cuz a a lot of Americans think it's um afro beats it's not afro beats yeah a lot of the hence I avoided saying afro beats cuz AFR beats is from Nigeria and amap piano is far from afro beat afro beat borrows from am piano now where is amap piano originated from South Africa from the hoods from the Cassis yeah but when I when I was looking at your video bro uh the only thing in my mind was like bro what's a night like out with Jim Jones CU that [ __ ] look lit there [ __ ] everywhere bro um please please describe a night out in Miami with Jim so let's say we going to Miami right now I mean some nice are better than others but been doing it so long it's kind of like the the bare minimum for us to do in Miami just having fun but it still work at the same time like every every I'm I'm not just going out partying for no reason ni like that was we knew what we was kind of getting into we wanted to film a video so we knew we was going to ramp it up a bit take it to the to the highest form going crazy as we could but that actually happened to fall on a big weekend um and one of my dudes was celebrating so everything kind of happened for a reason but yeah Miami could take you for take you for a few a few trips man like okay so so so me and you we get in the car right I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm in Miami I hate you cuz you got a house there you stay there right yeah I got I got I got cribs there so I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm by the strip you know that Miami strip right yeah yeah yeah I mean see that's the thing about Miami when you come to visit Miami that's where people are know at like the strip and things like that I guess stand by Collins and ocean driveing all that people that live there don't really do the strip like that like you just you dig people congregate usually at night time and all the spots that usually go on down there um okay so we got security obviously you got to roll around with security right um yeah I mean that' be the safest thing for me to do so we get out the cut with security when you get to the bouncers are they letting us in cuz it's Jim Jones or are they checking our IDs cuz they've been checking our IDs just to buy beer here bro Che ID everywhere yeah everywhere yeah no I I don't think I produced my ID in since I was a teenager at clubs but yeah you won't need your ID when you with me so we walking in right yeah we going to get in oh do we have a section do we they going to give us a section VIP yeah they going to give us a section we going to get some bottles and let the night ensue got this thing called Power Hour you go to the club maybe like 2:45 to 3:45 in and out no sweat so what's the what's the purpose of that exercise the Power Hour yeah like why would you be in the cloud for an hour why would I be in a club for 4 hours it's Fu I mean I've been part I've been partying since I've been 14 I've been making money to party since I've been 18 I'm kind of burnt out so at this point I try to wait till the club is at the most popping or lest moment which is usually that hour right there and I get to enjoy everything that happened tonight and leave out of there and not be all burnt out what what does your wife say bro cuz you're married man you're surrounded by all these girls like you know I mean I'm going to worry about the women yeah is minimal to the money worry about the money more than anything so so a woman doesn't like give you grief when you come home I yeah you get you get grief all the time if you in a relationship no matter what you do if you had a job on Wall Street you get home you're going to get grief no around it you heard yeah there's women everywhere unless you work in the LGBT Club then you know I mean even there you still going to go home and get like it's no way around it you're going to get you know I mean like yeah so you've never had like been home and you had to explain like yo no man I was just doing music video it's just work like I don't know that good you going to explain yourself in every relationship and things like that I got a good woman at home who understands a job I have and things like that so for the most part but for the most part I'm a very responsible respectable person when when I'm in the streets and when I do have to interact with females and things like that yeah anyway H ladies and gentlemen welcome to another special edition of podcasting chill so CU yeah I am here we're chilling with the [ __ ] Legend Kings of Harlem please make some noise for Jim Jones Jim I gotta say bro I gotta say bro I'm going to be honest with you when I find that your name was GMO geloo gelo I'm like I'm like Jim Jones losing some G points here man what the [ __ ] is that I'm Puerto Rican and a rubian my pops is Puerto Rican the word gelo means William in English is a Spanish Spanish name cuz you know what I was thinking I was thinking that guy who does the show late night you know the short guy who does like the interviews with um this late night comedian man what are the late night shows oh man not uh bad with these oh gosh the late night guy bro uhri or something not Corin O'Brien no not Trevor Noah the other American guy man like uh old new no he's like jimm Kimel Jimmy Kimel jimy he's got that he's got that short guy his name is julo oh I don't I don't I don't got got me messed up I don't even really watch TV like that bro okay I'll be out chasing the money I ain't even got time to do that and if and if I do got some time I'm trying to get a little bit of rest or I'm thinking about money [ __ ] is crucial out here right now you better get to your dollar a lot of [ __ ] about to happen and if you ain't got no coins boy you going to be [ __ ] up you ever been to uh Puerto Rico yeah I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times yeah but business not for the Heritage part of it so like you don't know where like your your your parents were at Familiar of the place where my father's from but I never really got to do the whole go to give with my family understand the roots understand you know I mean like I didn't get to get to that part of it but I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times you find like that's important like to know you it's definitely important I had this um I did an interview not too long ago about um how important the roots are and get to know where my family from know I mean so we'll start to do that pretty soon so so so your dad you know you know your dad right yeah he's passed away oh okay God bless rest in peace what happened to him he passed away yeah like was it um medical thing or yeah natural causes oh damn like when you young or um maybe when I was uh 23 24 oh damn bro SED to hear that man maybe 26 right before my son passed right before my God bless right before my son Bor bro but you like 47 right now I look good for 47y old man no homo you know what I mean thank you very much like what was what's keeping you looking so good is it the yoga yeah a lot of yoga a lot of Pilates I stay in shape um I'm very uh very big on Fitness um work out like five six times a week um it's one of the best ways to stay young and have better chances of living a long life is that why you do it or maybe there's other purpose like you know a lot of people are in gym for their mental health I mean it's very it's very it's very therapeutic I will say that but my main goal is to look good of course but to give me better chances of living forever bro so how you got into rap um I don't know correct me if I'm wrong right but you used to skip church and go to the train station to to rap like no I never skipped Church to go on the train station and rap I skipped Church to go to the train station and go play video games and run the streets and do everything a bad little kid did from the streets of hollow when we was like S8 and n and things like that I don't know if you know about anything about the subway system in New York but that's the pathway system that get you to all five burrows and we definitely was on the subway which maybe we shouldn't have been but we was a little uh loose um for me rapping actually rapping didn't start later on in life to actually uh C and um they I got a deal and things like that and that was the first time me myself really thought about actually raing cuz I'll be honest with you like um dipet I don't really know much about dipet however I know about you guys individually like Cameron old boy like one of my favorite songs uh jul sna had hear that that was Cameron and Jules and jwes he both was on he both old boy and heon yeah why don't you jump on those tracks man those tracks are massive they was already done I was there for the making of both of them incredible tracks yeah and then how did dipit start start like how did you guys start the whole movement um organically kiss him Harem gr up together um talented kids Cam and Mason BL sh was they already was doing music um Everybody gradu graduated high school I didn't get to go to college they went to college they got kicked out they got kicked out they come moved in with me from that that was a uh foundation for them to D into the music you've been in the game for like 20 30 odd years right been in the game for since 1997 how would you describe the different eras of like um hip-hop right especially now cuz um obviously we all know about the Kendrick Lamar song they're not like us but I didn't know how big it was until I landed in in in America and it's like it's like a movement the video yeah it's like huge it's massive bro yeah it's a big record Kendrick did that shout out to Kendrick shout out to my boy Drake but what do you think about like the evolution of hip-hop in all the different areas you've been a part of what do you mean what do I think about it it's a great thing to be a part of something that um you could only dream of everybody doesn't get a chance to be in this game um I've been fortunate enough to be here for so many genres and errors and seen so many people come and go I've watched the smallest artist to the biggest artist who you thow will be here forever and going um I got stories for days I can tell you about um how I feel about it I feel great I feel blessed you know what I mean I feel lucky this [ __ ] don't it's not promised and for me to still be here is definitely a blessing so in the 90s what was the vibe like man like like what in the 90s as far as what in hip-hop yeah it was it was different um 90s was a great era um one of my favorite errors um that was the era we first first came outside um started to get out deal uh very aggressive era uh no social media um cell phones were just being born um everything that you seen you was something that you could grab on to um artists had to go to the towns we couldn't just get on your phone and music you had to go get you couldn't just have access to it so it was a it was it it was a hunt um you had to touch the Tails kiss babies do radio everything like it was just a different ER but who was around like during that time when you who was around like Tupac was did you like meet Tupac Tupac I didn't get to meet Tupac um Tupac passed away what 95 was that yeah right in big in '97 um no I got to see Tupac do a few times in Harlem um that was dope but um not Tupac passed away before we got to get in the record game but I've seen a lot of a lot of artists in my time from a young age to old age we were partying in clubs as teenagers before we even got a record deal and things like that like we were in clubs since high school and [ __ ] like that so any interactions with Big L he was from Harlem right yeah shouts to Big Al Big Al was definitely from Harlem um 139th NFL Big L um I was one of the Cam's uh close friends um actually put cam on a dope record that started to give uh Cam and bloodshed and and her mcgree her was already popping too but guy gave them some notice when it came to R so when you come out like who's who's popping at that time is it git is it mop D it's way before G when we came out I was like Eminem just dropped oh [ __ ] this is Slim Shady not M like Slim Shady I I remember that that was like cam had dropped and Eminem had dropped DMX had dropped Nori had dropped um Big Pun had dropped lud Chris Luda had just started coming out um Nelly Nelly down down baby yeah shouts to coola love um yeah that type of error shouts to shouts to Fat Joe shouts to Buster they was already in it uh Nas was already in it Jay start going crazy that's when he just started taking over with the 1 million 2 million 3 million 4 um yeah very competitive very edgy um lot of the big dogs um had real roots in the streets um especially in the streets of New York so that put that put a real Mystique on everything when it came to the music um all the events with topnotch um it just was a different feel man it was a heavy heavy dope boy era um this was before the drug dealers wanted to be Rappers that's when the rappers wanted to be drug dealers you know what I mean and and that Arrow was was a very dope high impact trenel and Russian it was a was a great error bro I saw an interview you did correct me if I'm wrong I might be paraphrasing but you mentioned a place called the tunnel or something where everybody would be and you guys were [ __ ] [ __ ] in the bathrooms please please describe that manest cuz a place like that couldn't exist right now bro with all this woke [ __ ] I mean yeah and the cancel cult I would say it was probably the greatest Club The Hip hopers have seen and it was during the 90s era it was the Golden Era um in New York they got you had stories about like Studio 54 in that era when everybody used all the biggest of big used to go to Studio 54 well the tunnel was what Studio 54 was to that era to our era and it didn't make so many people and nationalities and genres and just everybody was like a big pumbo all for the sake of the culture you had some of the flyest models to some of the biggest drug dealers biggest gang bangers I mean every former elicit street life you could think of was in the spot along with the biggest artists and rappers and actors and models that you could find into all athletes um it would definitely like that um and was this like per invite or just like anybody could Rock up there nah you couldn't just rock up there for this is '90s entry was like $100 first of all $100 for a club that was the first time we ever heard of it and that was a lot of money back then especially we probably started in '94 going there teenager so $100 was sto a lot of money in New York at the time sneakers wasn't even costing $100 um to get in the club you definitely had to be connected to know somebody or you had to wait on a long line that usually was a block long um they had like an Express line you could pay $100 to get on Express line that'll get you to the door quicker and then you pay your entry fee um streets was blocked off you was a big dog you was able to bring your cars down there I was able to bring like four five of them if I wanted to um yeah the club was just it was different man pull up to the door security they taking people's shoes off they searching your jacket twisting people inside out like they about to go on the Rikers Island I got to I gave security High files I never took my shoes off and not since high school I when we used go in high school we used to get our shoes taken off and things like that make you feel like you going to the cental bookings and [ __ ] like that so what gave you that clout that allowed you to bring four cars in when nobody or you had to be a big dog to bring four cars in when you could just give them a high five instead of removing your shoes and you're young by then like what gives you that CL I was a big dog since a small pup bro J yeah man what gave you those you know credentials at such a young age to suppos all these people cuz Dr Tre was there yeah you putting in four cars not removing shoes I was a good Lord Biden citizen everybody love Jim Jones even even the girls like would you just rock up they say let's go to the bathroom that's it yeah now that well yeah there was a lot of that going on they had a uh the layout was different first of all the club was a block long a whole city block um wow there was like three other four other clubs within the club or spots that look like clubs um the main floor was humongously big the DJ was like a a lifeguard Tower in the middle of the club um you go upstairs they had a VR big V PE upstairs and then go through a door it open up to the bathroom the bathroom was like a unisex Club [ __ ] had a big ass bar in the middle of the bathroom uh bunch of stalls lined up um that [ __ ] was like a hotel inside Lions cocaine everything yeah they was going down a lot of sex was going down there a lot of a lot of drugs was going down in there um yeah the tunnel was definitely uh a landmark to New York City when it comes to the clubs I I definitely um I always think about that club um it did a lot for me in my life um it gave me a lot of imagination when it came to to the culture and the things I was seeing from a young age as to where I want to be and the direction I want to go in yeah we was going there since high school so when you seeing people like Mike Tyson and all these people coming in big cheer on and just having their way as a kid go out got to go to school the next morning you you in school thinking about that [ __ ] like w man this school [ __ ] [ __ ] this school [ __ ] I need some money and I need to go to the tunnel that's all I want to [ __ ] do that's wild man now can you imagine because we in sa right we're looking at all the videos that you guys are pulling out there like we're looking at this lifestyle and then you F Track to 2024 right M and the P didy thing breaks out right I mean i' rather not even to get into that yeah just don't I rather the do I don't you know I mean like it's not it's not my business oh I mean like this you heard God bless it's too much n yeah and it's not me to have an opinion on certain things cuz I ain't perfect I've been through my own [ __ ] in life and I see a lot of people that have even this doing too much just know that I ain't perfect so I choose not to talk on certain [ __ ] that you know what I mean a lot of other people people been talking about I let them keep doing the talk and I got other [ __ ] to work on I'm trying to work on me being a better person yeah I respect I respect that man but were ever part of any gang or like you sounding like the F never hey we don't the F in South Africa man only PS I'm just playing with you yeah I've been affiliated with the bloods in New York City um ENT Tre um yeah so crazy have you ever been to sa like have you ever been to Africa or um I've been to Africa where did you go uh gaban gille damn G to perform there um I went to perform there but uh got some great friends there they actually had ran the country at the time this is before the big yeah yeah overtaking and stuff like that but I had a ball out there I got to go to an island called Pony um that was a dope experience as they took me to the jungles I got to see some of the indigenous people um it was like a a real um life Awakening like and I got to see how also the rich people live out there also like I got to see both sides like that you know what I mean it was it was a great experience I out there for like a week um I haven't been back since but yeah it was dope you never been to South Africa never been to South Africa bro so the reason why I asked that is because like yo bro like American culture has infiltrated South Africa like you can't believe like you know we got people worshiping you guys you know Jim Jones rappers and everything you so we've got rappers who rap just like you and youd say they're like Bloods and Crips but they've never they've never left sa you know cuz that's how influential uh the culture is right but from you when you see or hear that like what do you guys think like do you think is like some [ __ ] like or like leave don't don't follow the gang life you know what I mean oh as far as that is concerned um there's two sides to that this what you do as a gang member that turns it into something that becomes a crime or whatever that end but the Brotherhood part of it is what the most of us joined up for when we coming up in the hood and need that Brotherhood lean on somebody is that type of camaraderie that pretty much stood for and there's a lot of other great attributes that comes with affiliation or you becoming a part of a gang um it gets twisted up because we all come up in these urban communities and our back is against the wall we don't have no opportunities um it's very dormant uh we on top of each other so naturally testosterone testosterone wins in a lot of these situations where these kids find s in bad situations and for that I would tell people to kind of stay away from this type of life um I don't want to oppose my will we all going to experience what we going to experience but I can't tell you the consequences to this type of Lifestyle could be very dear you heard ethal a lot of people don't get to make it where I made it and Escape that lifestyle that could have put me away or could have put me in the dirt I mean so here as a Living testament to tell you that these consequences are terrible the odds on you making it out of that life in a positive manner are very slim I mean but if you are in that life and you taking it as a Brotherhood and try to uplift your brothers I know there's a lot of people around you that are doing a lot of [ __ ] that that that that that's very crazy you know what I mean if you're a part of that and you got the positive minder then you try to uplift your brother and instill some positivity within them because it's very cold out here so I've always been curious bro like so when that when you you you start getting immersed you know or Affiliated in the gang life how does that affect the conversation at home with your parents like your mom your dad and just the domestic you know Dynamics I a't grow my parents I was a grown man since I was like 15 I made my own money since I was like 16 my grandmother left me in high school man I was raising my Sisters by myself in the projects I hustle every I ever got in my life that's why music saved my life I was so grateful to be able to be next to cam and him getting a deal at such a very young age to be able to still be making money off that [ __ ] right now you were U anr for Warner uh music group yeah I was the director of anr for Warner Music Group um years ago uh shouts to Kevin L shouts to Leo Cohen for giving me the opportunity um great opportunity uh I excelled at it extremely very young with a lot of power but didn't understand what I had at hand um didn't have too many people in my corner that were telling me the things that I should have been doing with that type of position as opposed to some type of weird way be hating you know I mean so that's what happened but as you get older you learn you learn and you move on who did you discover while you were in that position uh I would tell you a story I I know I've helped try s uh they come to tra songs that you know today he's always in he's always in we know why no n but he was a young kid at the time and uh they were actually going to cut him from the label we had a big uh um it's like uh one of them uh some events they be doing not the talent shows the uh well was something like that all the artists had to come perform and then they pretty much didn't know that they was on a Cho and block at the time when I was an executive and and he was one of the artists that they were going to cut and I remember Kevin L specifically ask me yo what we should do with him I'm about to cut him I don't know what to do with him and when I heard him uh singing and I saw him perform I was like this is this is one artist you should keep and did that and now we all tra songs on so many dope ass records is it true you could have signed Drake yeah I had a chance to sign uh I had a chance to do business with Drake um through Allan grum blat um when I was doing business at cotch um it was a different era I didn't understand what Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he show me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah understand everybody going at my guy I understand the hate man the hate is so phenomenal it's just how this game go man this game is so tricky man these [ __ ] just like females in this game we ain't going to get into that man there's a lot of uh but wait wait wait so so with Drake like are you are you seeing him perform like try songs or like you just heard of the guy just a conversation Allan called me about signing a kid let me hear some of his music um and I was like the kid know how to rap but I don't know what to do with him his image is crazy and him couple years later heard him on a Wheezy mixtape going crazy I was like wow this kid is about to go wham inside of this business and he sure did and you're know trying to call Weezy like yo man I gotta get that kid or something n he was already signed a young money and jcole did you miss on jcole as well I could have signed J Cole bro jcole was in the studio with me every day and at that point jcole I he's he remind me of a knockoff Drake and not to say it like that but that's who he sounded like he came to my studio every day rapping to these Drake beats rapping like Drake Cadence like Drake he could rap his ass off yeah you heard yeah but it was already a drake out there he had the Caesar it was different like two lightskinn [ __ ] might not K when raing the same but you never know what you got in front of you man you dig and those are lessons I I've took with me to moving forward when I see artists and and I hate artists I always give them more than just hearing just just I got to I got to I gotta try to capture the whole picture I make sure I just don't you mean so I don't miss nothing else because I've missed a few people and I've helped a few people um gain a lot of success in in my time in this industry whether it been by me having a meeting with them or me having influence on them or you know I mean so you know and there's never like any animosity like Jake Cole or Drake never came up to be like yo you could have signed me look at me now bro I mean me and Drake is cool as [ __ ] um I see J Cole I don't think he I mean I don't think that's no he some [ __ ] he might want to keep to himself not to be like that sh the co he not that type of artist he's not a you I mean yeah you did I look I look at as we can see I want to mention an artist who like I'm really fond of like I think this guy's [ __ ] amazing musically talented everything that he touched like turned to Gold who's that uh kid k bro K Cy yeah yeah did you help him with his career yeah I birth K Cy wow J me how so bro bir them nobody would have know who K Cy was at all if I a jump on this remix record but it wasn't even remix he wasn't even a nobody like I tell a story all the time I had a inter used to work for me said he got some dudes that do videos they would like to do a video for me told them come let me see they work they show me their videos the first video they showed me was of the kid Cy record he's on the top of a roof some simple video the record sound more wavy than the opportunity for them to do a video I'm like well if you'll get me the beat to this record I Remix this record and then y'all can shoot the video to that record wow and that's what they did and then um the radio station ripped the record off of YouTube and start playing it at Hot 97 and K Cy was born bro why do you think especially about kid Cy cuz from him when I listen to music right it wasn't really no no other kid Cy record besides the one that I was on yeah man he's not in they don't play his records where I be at at all not to be funny wow bro and we listen to him like all that day and night you know remember only record I know yeah it's the only record I know unless it's like a pop record that everybody know and I and I'm even not paying attention to it but he don't his records don't get played nowhere that i' be at not like that unless I go into a different farm and that's the type of music they playing in one of these funny clubs that play fist pump music and pop music he's not into like you dig like they don't play his music in the clubs I'll be at maybe in Vegas and [ __ ] like that but that's not like they not pumping this [ __ ] in live they not pumping this [ __ ] in Atlanta they not pumping this [ __ ] down the Stafford room or you know what I mean like they I'm not saying nothing like that but I don't hear it in the strip clubs I don't hear like you know what I mean so but he's a very successful person with some of the greats like Kanye to put him in a position to win and [ __ ] like that and I think he's way more better as an actor than he is a musician and that's just my POS that's just my opinion he did I seen him in the movie uh about the race car [ __ ] where he was F the playe like he got a lot of Charisma and [ __ ] like that on on camera for what I could see and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean bro I mean for you as Jim Jones to to see these kids you're introduced to them by an intern and then to hop onto that song it's something selfless you know to just give these unknown kids an opportunity of sharing a song with you where do you think that selflessness comes from how was that unknown kid I'm still an unknown kid anytime I get an opportunity that's an opportunity I should be able to give to somebody else bro the fact that you could even come to our podcast shout out man yeah man you don't even know us exactly what you're saying yeah know us what's his name I don't it's fine you know remember those kids who who did the video for him anyway you know remember I remember like that kids that got the biggest African podcast I'm definitely going to know like them is my guys right family right there appreciate I really mean that that sincerely and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean I I bump in too many people in my life and been across too many people in my journey to actually remember everybody's name but the face and the cause and I mean BR I want to understand right the first time you came up with the concept For Love and Hip Hop where were you what was happening that um that was something like uh me and Christy she had opportunity to do uh her own reality show um and actually fell through and that kind of she was kind of she wanted to do that I can see she was eager about doing that when it fell through kind you know I mean [ __ ] with her mood and [ __ ] like that so so so so so the initial concept what was it was just Chrissy just showing like what's life the initial concept was about she had her own thing going on about a group of women that was supposed to do a reality show had nothing to do with me yeah that [ __ ] fell through she lost that opportunity to end up not going people have been begging me to do reality TV for past couple years at the time and I and you reality TV gold man I refused to do it yeah and then when that happened I was like all right I got I'll do this for you and we'll make it about you and females that have to that are involved with artist such as myself and show what the relationship side is when you're dealing with a high-profile artist and you know what I mean how so that's how that started bro and that thing became a monster super super monster like it's still big till this day bro 100% so do you have like uh ownership in that we we were link a all that you know at that time when maybe the second season we just in a position where we refuse to compromise our dignity for anyone or any dollar and sometimes it be like that you know what I mean um but ain't no stress off my back T my hat to him you no but but but we got to talk about that because you see like this podcast um it's blackowned right it's just me and a couple of other people that are involved in the podcast right and we're always striving for ownership so a lot of um Brands and investors have come to try to buy the podcast and we say know cuz like we believe in ownership and telling the story the way we want to tell it right so what went wrong in that because as a hustler I believe like that's your also end goal MH um it wasn't something that I was just a lot of different layers and [ __ ] like that and I was too worried about doing other things and we had the opportunity to gain all ownership 50% of the whole TV show and all that but it still wasn't worth GE bro that's insane you just let go like that yeah bro it's your brain child bro there is no Love and& Hip Hop without you bro I still got a brain you heard yeah those are for people that don't have a brain that lack creativity people that steal things from you lack what you don't have remember that yeah whether it's money whether it's creativity whatever it is they lack what you don't have ultimately they steal from you you heard I mean we didn't even know C beef if it wasn't for Love and& Hip Hop right yeah yeah yeah definitely yeah bro you gave birth to so many many people man like VI their careers that's the god in me that's why I'm always going to be good yeah she man so any other shows that you're working on like in the pipeline that you want to do I was telling you I working on um a late night show a late night um a late night variety show live in studio audience hopefully we'll be filming in about 40 to 60 days um beautiful concept I do I do believe people going enjoy the show um like I was saying I can't do um a podcast is too personal for me and [ __ ] like that and me watching these podcasts um dealing with these artists me myself don't have the temperament for it you know what I mean um I [ __ ] I T my hat to y'all to have to deal with artists such as myself cuz you never know what type of mood they going to come in you know what I me some of these artists have a air to them where they feel like they better than most and they would never sit and have tea with the with the maintenance guy you heard me myself me going to maintenance guy going to smoke blunts before I get on stage [Music] I live my life and and and currently uh before we let you go man what do you think about the state of hip-hop cuz like statistically numbers wise it's not looking good man e beats has played all over New York now there's now the pianos this is this is what they want you to do this is how to get us to go against each other it's all under the same culture umbrella it's afro music ref I'm a piano I'm a piano explain that what do you mean by that bro yeah R&B what do you mean by that ultimately it's all from under the same origin and creativity of the same person from the same colors is all our thing n but let's be honest Jimmy hip-hop hasn't involved bro when I was listening to Eminem what do you want mean what do you mean hip-hop hasn't evolved you guys are still rapping about the same stuff it don't you you missing the point of what hip-hop is yeah hip-hop has evolved to a point that you can be the music genres that you're told them about can be noticed you think that if there was a hip hop that I'm a piano would be noticed or afro Beach would be noticed think about that and not to take nothing away from y because you always have culture and yes that music might be big within the continent of Africa yeah right but to cross over to American Fame and commercialism you don't think that the hip-hop culture played a big part in that that's that that's a different argument now you want to have a different argument I'm telling you the semantics of where we going with this you dig like you talking about uh the the hip hop music is damn percentage that's how they want us to think when it's really not cuz we all uplifting each other you heard you think that the country music that's going on in the black people winning is not because of the hip-hop culture no no no I think no one is disputing that however so then when you say hip-hop numbers are down and damn for who no I'm talking about I know what you're talking about but damn for who tell me who it's down for because I'm still making the money I make yeah I do believe there's still a lot of artist that's making a shitload of money that they make I don't think it went down for them yeah you know what I mean but I understand what you're talking about they say the numbers and then rock and roll genre might be up like I don't really you heard like that's I'm into this business you heard and it's always up for us you heard cuz this is a business we make money out of nothing it's never a downside to this okay and and that's why I'm saying I think we're having two different conversations here cuz the conversation I'm having is I'm having I'm having right is that in as much as he's saying yeah the numbers are down because they orchestrated and whatever I get that right but also that's why I asked do you think Hip-hop has evolved cuz I grew up on hip-hop right and the same things um quote unquote you guys were rapping about in the '90s how can hipop how can hip hop evolved in the same thing that Africa been Africa been going on since the '90s aren't y going still going through the same thing we are huh we are so how could the music evolve when the music ref the time ah okay get you real stories what you want us to rap about [ __ ] that that we don't have ah we talk about [ __ ] we dream about all the time that's the good The Good Life the colorin the Ros we talk about but the truth is how the music going to change when our position hasn't changed when we still going through the same [ __ ] we've been going through okay and y'all being from Africa should know that more than we know that yeah that's facts that's fact go about that own Cod yeah yeah yeah yeah you know are bro that's a valid fact but how do you feel man like you've come from an era where you guys when what you you said in your raps I mean evolved as far as dition as far as what we rap about cuz we still stuck in the same place but as a business it has evolved to one of big time yeah yeah biggest big time money making machines you can attach yourself to this made some of the richest individuals whether you're the rapper the lawyer the executive like that's true you know what I mean the supply chain but then I think that's why you know when you get the likes of a wz coming out and Kendrick Lamar they stand out like a sore thumb because like they are rapping about but that's what music is about to stand out for those who that want to look like everybody they don't get nowhere why you think Dip set was so successful sucessful yeah because we stood out on purpose we don't want to look like or H or sound like no one else m we want yall to above all see us when we walk in the building and hear us when we get on that [ __ ] mic you heard why would you guys the diplomats I never like where did that come from the diplomats the name the diplomats yeah we diplomats oh ah okay that sounded cool no we diplomats we are Harlem diplomats and we take it as that you heard we go to the Embassy when we land in countries you heard all right okay okay okay I I sort of get that bro so in the business and how you still making money right now like from music just like how is it royalties damn you asking a lot of questions bro no I want to know bro I'm so I've got so many questions I want to ask you bro I'll tell you this music is supposed to be used so you can make as much ancillary dollars as you can because the music ain't promised everybody 15 minutes of fame ranges from a small 15 minutes of fame to a run like we having within that minute the 15 minutes the fame you better do a lot of other things to secure your bag because music is not going to be thing you be able to get paid off forever unless you're the DRS and the J that's not even 1% that's you know what I mean so you think about that so you better have some hustle you better learn how to you better have some business sense you better put your credit in order you better do a few things to secure you if you are artist [ __ ] leverage powerful penda yeah man how do you feel man when these kids these days wrap up about you know trying to act tough and rap about stuff they never done like you guys red about stuff you lived I mean I do believe a lot of these kids are going through a lot of [ __ ] that we went through and then a lot of the kids are talking about [ __ ] that they see but most of the kids are all growing up in the same community that all of that [ __ ] is going on so who tells them they don't have the right to talk about [ __ ] that they're not doing when that's still [ __ ] that they're seeing oh sure Ah that's powerful but the problem I have a problem when they rapping like they did it but they just R from somebody else's Vantage Point understand that but most of these artists that you've seen in the game some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I pretty firm in his in in his music that I'm a believer that he did some of that [ __ ] he can talk about just me I don't know you possibilities are possibilities but some things just seem correct you know mean I can't tell you for sure cuz it is music you know what I mean but some things seem correct [ __ ] man bro you got to come out to man you got to you know we haven't had a proper uh hip-hop concert in sa like since 50 N since you are come on back to the city does concerts man ah those are for old people empd the bigest artist in South Africa right now Hip-Hop Hip-Hop uh there's a guy called nastyc but nesty came here he doesn't know know you f poopa who's that nah F poopa Nigerian West African artist massive he used to pop not now for real still massive bigger than like ber boyo still it's different type of music oh stadiums is 50 60,000 people like what is this following this gu what's his name f poop F poop I don't know him bro he's from Nigeria yeah yeah yeah yeah Nigerian Prett pretty big yeah humongous bro how big was was 50 Cent bro like during his Reign man like how big was 50 Cent [ __ ] retardedly big it wasn't nothing bigger than him was Drake before Drake was dring he was oh [ __ ] he did it like it was like 50 was on a run that he never even touched the club bro like [ __ ] never seen him in the club he only did Arenas I never knew too many artist that just did that you dig like the [ __ ] was super massive every [ __ ] Rec he came out with was was going platinum and I'm just telling you the facts you heard and I always got to speak factual no matter how I feel about a person the [ __ ] was on top Super on top it was no way to knock him off his d i remember Jay-Z dropped the diss track on you did you guys resolve that beef I think you were not happy with him as the president of De jam oh man um we never really had a beef um we had some feuds back and forth through the situations that were going on over other people um and me being who I am I had to hold my ground um but to know that he actually talked about me in multiple of his records mean that I was pretty big in his eyes you dig true true cuz I didn't hear him talk about too many people in his career and if he did talk you talk about you on the record that meant something you know what I mean and I was then so for me that I I I took that like what it was like you dig like yeah J doesn't respond to take the time out to say my name you heard if I'm if I'm not that big of a deal to you you would never ever a am I am I right talk about a person you heard true it's it's a form of respect and ackowledge 100% am I right in saying a lot of [ __ ] are scared of Jay-Z bro cuz we interviewed Dam Ian I don't I don't know I'm not a lot of [ __ ] you heard I'm a man so I couldn't I I couldn't tell you that you heard I ain't scared to nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that that that dentist yeah the dentist got me there you heard you can walk in you could walk we about to fight right now you a dentist walk in you got it you got it like you got it bow down you got it I don't want no smoke let me get out of here M fact word Jimmy before you go man uh what beefs did you have so you had something beef with Jay-Z right no man I just told you we had some feuds stemming from that's beef bro stemming from other things that going on um my problem like it was all part of Us coming up in the game and things were happening we were signing a Rockefeller cam was sign a Rockefeller actually then we got opportunity to Diplomat records um the split between uh Jay and Dame came um artist took sides some took the J side some took the the Dame side which side were you on we was on the Dame side OB Dash yeah Dame Dash that's do you think Dame Dash is misunderstood bro huh you think Dame Dash is misunderstood um too smart for his own good I get that yeah if you had the opportunity again you sometimes being the smartest person in the room could be held against you especially when you want everybody to know that you're the smartest person in the room yeah yeah yeah and I get given a second chance would you still side with Dam never you wouldn't never whoa I never signed a d at all that was no no no like sided with him took his side oh give a second chance I wouldn't have sided with none of them I would we would haveed our [ __ ] business but you learned that with age yeah you heard we had no business butting into that because it wasn't a street beef and this wasn't some [ __ ] that had to do with us ultimately we were holding our [ __ ] down and [ __ ] like that but business-wise if we would if we knew what we knew now we would let them get into that they self y'all can handle that because we got records to put out and music to make and we got our own record label to run you dig and this my hinder what we got going on by us taking sides and that's why I tell people now even when people seeing all the Diplomat [ __ ] like y bro don't don't get in to taking sides with me and my bro because you never know how that might end up and if it end up to a point where we do figure out our situation then I'm looking at you funny now me and you got forever you heard you dig and there are plenty of people that did that and plenty people that didn't and plenty people that showed the same amount of love that he showed to me that it showed to cam when we were going through our imaginary situations and [ __ ] like that cuz it's all imaginary when you know you can figure figure it out now it's a saying that like don't just be in people's business when especially when they've beef and take sides cuz and I I had to learn that a lot I had took me a long time to learn that because of how we come up in the Cod that they supposedly treat us in teach us in the street and [ __ ] like that but sometimes that's not the smallest thing that we can do and then uh push a t did you ever beef with him nah that was some [ __ ] that we was on record um he did some [ __ ] I did some [ __ ] you dig that was it I never followed that I didn't even know did you know there's a pusher T me I ain't got no just know I don't know I know you're from I know you're from Africa and [ __ ] like that but people don't play with me yeah for real and I don't I don't play with people this ain't no playground you heard this is the street it's two ways don't get caught up in a yellow line it's going to be hard to cross bro yeah you heard no I don't trust me I'm from Africa but I saw what happened at the airport so that [ __ ] escalated yeah [ __ ] that was self-defense man God yo bro it looked like that guy was just messing with you bro I wish that could have never happened cuz I was trying to avoid that by all cause but [ __ ] happened sometime man you dig and definitely not not going to allow anybody do anything to me at all bro when I saw that video right like I don't know I just met you today right but I saw when you lifted that guy from the escalator threw him down he literally just went on survival mode bro like it's like there was a button that you switched on and you just like I don't [ __ ] care but yeah yeah no I mean no that's a button that I choose not to push you heard yeah exactly like you can go there quickly I choose to show restraint for a lot of reasons in my life and sometimes it's hard to you dig but where I'm at in life right now I choose positivity or all the other things that come out my way because I know how it is to be negative I was once that negative person that was very aggressive and ready to do something to to you over the minimal alistic of things and [ __ ] like that so I'm blessed to be here to try to be able to show restraint and so so the guy so the guy at the airport you guys on the same plane yeah we on the same plane so you don't have a private jet no I don't have a private jet I'm not a rich man come on Jimmy you made so much money over the years but anyway so you're in the plane what's he what's this guy saying to you like um I don't know man just [ __ ] happens I know just the started from the plane just know that what you see happen on so it starts on the plane you restrain yourself you're like all right cool my dog say whatever you want to say yeah when he gets to the airport I mean the escalator that's when I think he starts hitting you or something right yeah something like that he tried to do something like that and that's what we see man but like I said this is not something that I want to glorify it's not you think he knows who you are um if if he didn't he know now no I'm I'm sorry see sorry cuz some people just provoke I believe he was he was trolling a little bit and things like that which is cool you I mean I'm if if you in New York not time 10 you do know who I am so you know I believe it was a bit of that but God bless man hopefully that they all right hopefully the old man um cool you dig like are you spiritual cuz you mentioned God a lot man yeah I'm very spiritual very spiritual very spiritual I've been my whole family is spiritual and what does that mean in an American sense cuz um us as African for me it means a lot of different things um I was told what the church was as a young age as they drag you to church every Sunday your grandmother your moms and your family and things like that and you really don't understand what that is from that young but as you get older and you go through certain things and you make it through certain things you understand that there is a God and everybody has a relationship with their God different and sometimes going to church doesn't mean that you love your God any less or he loves you any less you dig and you say spiritual I'm very spiritual I say my prayers as much as I can sometime two three four times in a day you dig man doesn't take away from what I do and who I am because I'm still in the line for everything else everybody is in but I know every day that I'm able to wake up and every day I'm able to make a dollar and every day I'm able to keep living the life that I am I should be thankful you heard cuz that's not just me that's a higher vibration that's definitely a God you dig and I'm well aware that I've escaped many things in life that Lord knows I should not be here but then again I should be here cuz he put here for a reason he gives his toughest battles to his strongest people what the Bible say you heard and I've made it through some very tough battles which are minimal to some of the people that I had next to me in their battles you know what I mean so it's like we all got to figure it out Jim Jones thank you so much man and thanks to God for bringing you here man definitely I appreciate for making time for us bro thank you man we appreciate you tired when you got you I appreciate the fact that you could even make it man got any last question yeah man bro you said you've gone through some tough battles and you mentioned how you lost your dad at like 26 but also that you you pretty much raised yourself from the age of 15 you know from that relationship or lack of it like has it affected how you father your children 100% this made me the best father I could be but me my relationship with my father was always a great one even though he wasn't there because every day he wasn't I love them even more I wasn't one of them kids that was bitter you dig I understand that everybody went through something and at that age what he was going through there was a lot of drug addiction and I knew that from a very young age I understood what drugs was and how they were tearing up my family I never held that against my father and I was just blessed able to get back with him before he passed away so he could see that his son was making something out of himself at that time I was already signed to her uh we think we just got the Rockefeller deal so it was a very big deal for me to be able to get back with my father to show him that me somebody that you should be proud of and I know him looking down right now got be like damn I did that so you know and that's how I feel but then in turn TR here my son I don't you know I mean like I just you know mean I pride myself on making sure that I I turned my son into somebody that was way better than I could ever be you oh man yeah that's my guy shout out to you man is your son still wearing Crocs to you br he's a Croc guy you heard yeah Crocs for Life bro Crocs for Life jumping out the beam with a fresh paer Crocs on I don't want to stand him Jimmy before you go your top five rappers all time my top five rappers of all you got to give us your top five bro yeah Tupac definitely Jay-Z Drake um Drake he not like us by default of course um rock cam no Eminem No No whoa not even big you from NY and not to take nothing away from him he's extremely nice it's retardedly nice when it comes to rap but I listen to artists that kind of you know I mean do something for the life that I live and kind of what I've been through and most of these artist or artist that I'm talking about people that you know what I mean like [ __ ] better stop hating on my boy Drake all of a sudden all this Drake land I get it I get it you ain't like us let's not do that let's not forget the 15 years he been spanking [ __ ] around this [ __ ] all all all over this [ __ ] all the alley he been giving most of these artists that are now seeming to be turning on them let's you know let's not some of them gave him their best hits let's not forget the big picture here and [ __ ] like but what the hip-hop culture and this game is built on competition so I yeah but what is he with it you heard you better put your best foot forward but what has Drake given back to the culture oh that you so love here we go um what is he giving back to the culture I seen him take a lot of people on tour and turn them even richer than they already was I I seen him give a lot of people hits that they would have never had if he wouldn't have got on a record things for the culture that wouldn't have happened in turn records that we would have never knew about him to record that the culture love and things like that I mean he's not from here Canada from the hood I don't believe he owes America too much but the monster that give back to where he's from maybe we should ask about what has he done in Canada giving back to his community as opposed to what he giving back to the culture of the United States when this is not where he's from and I think that's the Divide right there now if we talk about what he's done in Canada and if it's not up to par then maybe we can talk about oh you dig but that's I think that's for the people of Canada you dig like yeah cuz but it's the people of America in the hood who made him of course you heard about but that he didn't grw up in America he didn't grew up here you heard so if you was an artist from Africa yeah like boy yeah do you think bnab boy has responsibility what do Niger of United stes n I'm taking it back home bro super duper big yes but that's what people then will call a culture vulture cuz you come into a space you know do what the people of that space do benefit from them is is is you understand what we doing like it's bro it's not because he's not take so he's not taking benab boy is Nigerian it's a Nigerian culture that is now popular in America so Drake took an American culture and enriched himself but what he's saying is that he doesn't owe anything to America cuz he's not from yet right okay right yeah I mean [ __ ] he's got no obligation Fair argument he got no obligation Fair argument yeah like he lived if he lived like I don't I don't that's how I see it you heard like that's how I see it you dig but all these [ __ ] we talking about are filthy filthy filthy rich off the opinions of men you heard what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never but what I'm just trying to tell you is how this game is played yeah you heard yeah geez man the more we talk the more they get paid the loser still gets paid too if there is a loser I don't think there's a loser when they all getting Millions off of this [ __ ] I don't think I mean like and I understand end all be all in the whole circle of it but I'm I've been in this [ __ ] for so long I'm miss you can see the politics of really get you to understand of what's really going on and [ __ ] like that this [ __ ] don't pay me a dollar to talk about it yeah hey man how tight you with Joe Bon he calls us those African guys with numbers oh yeah yeah yeah Jo this my guy buts what's up man he cool yeah he's an instigator definely know how to get under people's skin yeah I've known Joan for so long [ __ ] like that um I'm proud of him put himself in his position a whole new Lane to make a shitload of money um where it stem from the culture this what I'm talking about all the ancillary things that you need to get going on if are a artist of some type of success you got to use that to get where you want look at Joe used his startom and rap no matter what it was to able to finesse a whole new Lane of podcasting that true he's pretty big in damn near one of the forefathers of it from our culture right y'all started before him or after him we started after him but now we have more numbers than him hey doesn't matter no numbers do matter I mean no J and get num I'm cool with that but you won't be never be the considered the forefather of this whole no no no no no no no you dig 100% yeah it's Jo Joan numbers is cool I'm cool with that you get paid and I know what's a race you might be number one you heard yeah yeah but you still never be the forefather always going to have that under him like I've created this Lane for your how I feel about Ling hip hop yeah of course I got that under my belt that's mine y can never say that was yours at all yeah okay how much money you made off of it and [ __ ] like that at the end of the day you it's mine you heard Still My still mine so we always ask anybody any guest that we get on the show in closing what do you want to be remembered as man when it's all said and done I want I want to be remembered I want I want them to know that I gave more than I took because I was able to take a lot in my time amen just like that sh hey man I wish you put me on love and& hip-hop bro they got the African love of Hip Hop they got Jamaican love of Hip Hop they got they got any type of Love of Hip Hop we need the South African love of Hip Hop thanks Jim man shout out thank you bro I appreciate you man thank you we appreciate podcast and chill we out of here man boom peace welcome to Black excellenc do not fear for if you do just sip on some Grand and if you still do ask ourselves what would M [Music] do when they ask you do not fear for if you do just say an TV this is the the medicine of censorship this is the pill which one is that one podcast and chill	those who that want to look like everybody they don't get nowhere why you think Dip set was so successful sucessful yeah because we stood out on purpose we don't want to look like or H or sound like no one else m we want yall to above all see us when we walk in the building and hear us when we get on that [ __ ] mic you heard why would you guys the diplomats I never like where did that come from the diplomats the name the diplomats yeah we diplomats oh ah okay that sounded cool no we diplomats we are Harlem diplomats and we take it as that you heard we go to the Embassy when we land in countries you heard all right okay okay okay I I sort of get that bro so in the business and how you still making money right now like from music just like how is it royalties damn you asking a lot of questions bro no I want to know bro I'm so I've got so many questions I want to ask you bro I'll tell you this music is supposed to be used so you can make as much ancillary dollars as you can because the music ain't promised everybody 15 minutes of fame ranges from a small 15 minutes of fame to a run like we having within that minute the 15 minutes the fame you better do a lot of other things to secure	7	5	8	I I sort of get that bro so in the business and how you still making money right now like from music just like how is it royalties damn you asking a lot of questions bro	those who that want to look like everybody they don't get nowhere why you think Dip set was so successful sucessful yeah because we stood out on purpose we don't want to look like or H or sound like no one else m we want yall to above all see us when we walk in the building and hear us when we get on that [ __ ] mic you heard why would you guys the diplomats I never like where did that come from the diplomats the name the diplomats yeah we diplomats oh ah okay that sounded cool no we diplomats we are Harlem diplomats and we take it as that you heard we go to the Embassy when we land in countries you heard all right okay okay okay music is supposed to be used so you can make as much ancillary dollars as you can because the music ain't promised everybody 15 minutes of fame ranges from a small 15 minutes of fame to a run like we having within that minute the 15 minutes the fame you better do a lot of other things to secure	2,4,-3	8,6,9	2	4	-3	8	6	9
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr730VmL-lk	4,054	rr730VmL-lk	2024-06-27 00:00:00	like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano no well Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he showed me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah just understand everybody going there my guy I understand the hate exactly what you're saying yeah bro what's his name I don't it's fine you remember those some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I ain't scared of nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that the dentist yeah dentist got me there what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never [Music] [Music] yo Jimmy you do not look like you want to be here bro like someone forced you to be it's like you have to do that par they're the biggest podcast in Africa you have to be there I never look like I want to be nowhere man you got to part of me but congratulations to yall having the biggest podcast in Africa that that that's very big Africa being one of the biggest continents in the world a lot of people over there shut up man why you so tired bro crazy weekend I've been working all weekend shows different states traveling Planes Trains automobiles you know how I be a little bit too much partying yeah road kill it's tough but what's up how y'all feeling I'm good bro I literally saw um I saw your video uh yesterday for your new single the one you shot in Miami two turn temp yeah yeah how you feel about it bro that [ __ ] is lit man looks like our Vibe bro cuz we've been to Miami myself and and my partner but we never like experienced the Miami night life we were playing in Florida yeah we're DJing in Florida but two South Africans like the diaspora then West Palm Beach as well yeah DJ also yeah like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano what it's a genre it's called a piano no no cuz I'm a piano even you heard like you saw he did the whole Keys thing it has nothing to do with the piano that's where it started but has nothing to do with it these days when when I met charlot man he said the exact same thing he's like oh so you're a podcaster I'm like yeah and then you DJs I'm like no I play I'm a Pian like you're a Pianist man you one talented [ __ ] n it's a genre of music man what kind of genre is that like it's like slowed down house music with a lot of s that African influence that's the only way I can describe it so it's a it's a mix of a marriage house yeah a marriage of house music which originated here at Chicago and stuff and then we slowed it down created a sub genre called guo where guys were sort of rapping but very minimalist raps called guo then the kids were born like in the 2000s late '90s then created a whole meshup of those two genres and it's called Piano cuz a a lot of Americans think it's um afro beats it's not afro beats yeah a lot of the hence I avoided saying afro beats cuz AFR beats is from Nigeria and amap piano is far from afro beat afro beat borrows from am piano now where is amap piano originated from South Africa from the hoods from the Cassis yeah but when I when I was looking at your video bro uh the only thing in my mind was like bro what's a night like out with Jim Jones CU that [ __ ] look lit there [ __ ] everywhere bro um please please describe a night out in Miami with Jim so let's say we going to Miami right now I mean some nice are better than others but been doing it so long it's kind of like the the bare minimum for us to do in Miami just having fun but it still work at the same time like every every I'm I'm not just going out partying for no reason ni like that was we knew what we was kind of getting into we wanted to film a video so we knew we was going to ramp it up a bit take it to the to the highest form going crazy as we could but that actually happened to fall on a big weekend um and one of my dudes was celebrating so everything kind of happened for a reason but yeah Miami could take you for take you for a few a few trips man like okay so so so me and you we get in the car right I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm in Miami I hate you cuz you got a house there you stay there right yeah I got I got I got cribs there so I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm by the strip you know that Miami strip right yeah yeah yeah I mean see that's the thing about Miami when you come to visit Miami that's where people are know at like the strip and things like that I guess stand by Collins and ocean driveing all that people that live there don't really do the strip like that like you just you dig people congregate usually at night time and all the spots that usually go on down there um okay so we got security obviously you got to roll around with security right um yeah I mean that' be the safest thing for me to do so we get out the cut with security when you get to the bouncers are they letting us in cuz it's Jim Jones or are they checking our IDs cuz they've been checking our IDs just to buy beer here bro Che ID everywhere yeah everywhere yeah no I I don't think I produced my ID in since I was a teenager at clubs but yeah you won't need your ID when you with me so we walking in right yeah we going to get in oh do we have a section do we they going to give us a section VIP yeah they going to give us a section we going to get some bottles and let the night ensue got this thing called Power Hour you go to the club maybe like 2:45 to 3:45 in and out no sweat so what's the what's the purpose of that exercise the Power Hour yeah like why would you be in the cloud for an hour why would I be in a club for 4 hours it's Fu I mean I've been part I've been partying since I've been 14 I've been making money to party since I've been 18 I'm kind of burnt out so at this point I try to wait till the club is at the most popping or lest moment which is usually that hour right there and I get to enjoy everything that happened tonight and leave out of there and not be all burnt out what what does your wife say bro cuz you're married man you're surrounded by all these girls like you know I mean I'm going to worry about the women yeah is minimal to the money worry about the money more than anything so so a woman doesn't like give you grief when you come home I yeah you get you get grief all the time if you in a relationship no matter what you do if you had a job on Wall Street you get home you're going to get grief no around it you heard yeah there's women everywhere unless you work in the LGBT Club then you know I mean even there you still going to go home and get like it's no way around it you're going to get you know I mean like yeah so you've never had like been home and you had to explain like yo no man I was just doing music video it's just work like I don't know that good you going to explain yourself in every relationship and things like that I got a good woman at home who understands a job I have and things like that so for the most part but for the most part I'm a very responsible respectable person when when I'm in the streets and when I do have to interact with females and things like that yeah anyway H ladies and gentlemen welcome to another special edition of podcasting chill so CU yeah I am here we're chilling with the [ __ ] Legend Kings of Harlem please make some noise for Jim Jones Jim I gotta say bro I gotta say bro I'm going to be honest with you when I find that your name was GMO geloo gelo I'm like I'm like Jim Jones losing some G points here man what the [ __ ] is that I'm Puerto Rican and a rubian my pops is Puerto Rican the word gelo means William in English is a Spanish Spanish name cuz you know what I was thinking I was thinking that guy who does the show late night you know the short guy who does like the interviews with um this late night comedian man what are the late night shows oh man not uh bad with these oh gosh the late night guy bro uhri or something not Corin O'Brien no not Trevor Noah the other American guy man like uh old new no he's like jimm Kimel Jimmy Kimel jimy he's got that he's got that short guy his name is julo oh I don't I don't I don't got got me messed up I don't even really watch TV like that bro okay I'll be out chasing the money I ain't even got time to do that and if and if I do got some time I'm trying to get a little bit of rest or I'm thinking about money [ __ ] is crucial out here right now you better get to your dollar a lot of [ __ ] about to happen and if you ain't got no coins boy you going to be [ __ ] up you ever been to uh Puerto Rico yeah I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times yeah but business not for the Heritage part of it so like you don't know where like your your your parents were at Familiar of the place where my father's from but I never really got to do the whole go to give with my family understand the roots understand you know I mean like I didn't get to get to that part of it but I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times you find like that's important like to know you it's definitely important I had this um I did an interview not too long ago about um how important the roots are and get to know where my family from know I mean so we'll start to do that pretty soon so so so your dad you know you know your dad right yeah he's passed away oh okay God bless rest in peace what happened to him he passed away yeah like was it um medical thing or yeah natural causes oh damn like when you young or um maybe when I was uh 23 24 oh damn bro SED to hear that man maybe 26 right before my son passed right before my God bless right before my son Bor bro but you like 47 right now I look good for 47y old man no homo you know what I mean thank you very much like what was what's keeping you looking so good is it the yoga yeah a lot of yoga a lot of Pilates I stay in shape um I'm very uh very big on Fitness um work out like five six times a week um it's one of the best ways to stay young and have better chances of living a long life is that why you do it or maybe there's other purpose like you know a lot of people are in gym for their mental health I mean it's very it's very it's very therapeutic I will say that but my main goal is to look good of course but to give me better chances of living forever bro so how you got into rap um I don't know correct me if I'm wrong right but you used to skip church and go to the train station to to rap like no I never skipped Church to go on the train station and rap I skipped Church to go to the train station and go play video games and run the streets and do everything a bad little kid did from the streets of hollow when we was like S8 and n and things like that I don't know if you know about anything about the subway system in New York but that's the pathway system that get you to all five burrows and we definitely was on the subway which maybe we shouldn't have been but we was a little uh loose um for me rapping actually rapping didn't start later on in life to actually uh C and um they I got a deal and things like that and that was the first time me myself really thought about actually raing cuz I'll be honest with you like um dipet I don't really know much about dipet however I know about you guys individually like Cameron old boy like one of my favorite songs uh jul sna had hear that that was Cameron and Jules and jwes he both was on he both old boy and heon yeah why don't you jump on those tracks man those tracks are massive they was already done I was there for the making of both of them incredible tracks yeah and then how did dipit start start like how did you guys start the whole movement um organically kiss him Harem gr up together um talented kids Cam and Mason BL sh was they already was doing music um Everybody gradu graduated high school I didn't get to go to college they went to college they got kicked out they got kicked out they come moved in with me from that that was a uh foundation for them to D into the music you've been in the game for like 20 30 odd years right been in the game for since 1997 how would you describe the different eras of like um hip-hop right especially now cuz um obviously we all know about the Kendrick Lamar song they're not like us but I didn't know how big it was until I landed in in in America and it's like it's like a movement the video yeah it's like huge it's massive bro yeah it's a big record Kendrick did that shout out to Kendrick shout out to my boy Drake but what do you think about like the evolution of hip-hop in all the different areas you've been a part of what do you mean what do I think about it it's a great thing to be a part of something that um you could only dream of everybody doesn't get a chance to be in this game um I've been fortunate enough to be here for so many genres and errors and seen so many people come and go I've watched the smallest artist to the biggest artist who you thow will be here forever and going um I got stories for days I can tell you about um how I feel about it I feel great I feel blessed you know what I mean I feel lucky this [ __ ] don't it's not promised and for me to still be here is definitely a blessing so in the 90s what was the vibe like man like like what in the 90s as far as what in hip-hop yeah it was it was different um 90s was a great era um one of my favorite errors um that was the era we first first came outside um started to get out deal uh very aggressive era uh no social media um cell phones were just being born um everything that you seen you was something that you could grab on to um artists had to go to the towns we couldn't just get on your phone and music you had to go get you couldn't just have access to it so it was a it was it it was a hunt um you had to touch the Tails kiss babies do radio everything like it was just a different ER but who was around like during that time when you who was around like Tupac was did you like meet Tupac Tupac I didn't get to meet Tupac um Tupac passed away what 95 was that yeah right in big in '97 um no I got to see Tupac do a few times in Harlem um that was dope but um not Tupac passed away before we got to get in the record game but I've seen a lot of a lot of artists in my time from a young age to old age we were partying in clubs as teenagers before we even got a record deal and things like that like we were in clubs since high school and [ __ ] like that so any interactions with Big L he was from Harlem right yeah shouts to Big Al Big Al was definitely from Harlem um 139th NFL Big L um I was one of the Cam's uh close friends um actually put cam on a dope record that started to give uh Cam and bloodshed and and her mcgree her was already popping too but guy gave them some notice when it came to R so when you come out like who's who's popping at that time is it git is it mop D it's way before G when we came out I was like Eminem just dropped oh [ __ ] this is Slim Shady not M like Slim Shady I I remember that that was like cam had dropped and Eminem had dropped DMX had dropped Nori had dropped um Big Pun had dropped lud Chris Luda had just started coming out um Nelly Nelly down down baby yeah shouts to coola love um yeah that type of error shouts to shouts to Fat Joe shouts to Buster they was already in it uh Nas was already in it Jay start going crazy that's when he just started taking over with the 1 million 2 million 3 million 4 um yeah very competitive very edgy um lot of the big dogs um had real roots in the streets um especially in the streets of New York so that put that put a real Mystique on everything when it came to the music um all the events with topnotch um it just was a different feel man it was a heavy heavy dope boy era um this was before the drug dealers wanted to be Rappers that's when the rappers wanted to be drug dealers you know what I mean and and that Arrow was was a very dope high impact trenel and Russian it was a was a great error bro I saw an interview you did correct me if I'm wrong I might be paraphrasing but you mentioned a place called the tunnel or something where everybody would be and you guys were [ __ ] [ __ ] in the bathrooms please please describe that manest cuz a place like that couldn't exist right now bro with all this woke [ __ ] I mean yeah and the cancel cult I would say it was probably the greatest Club The Hip hopers have seen and it was during the 90s era it was the Golden Era um in New York they got you had stories about like Studio 54 in that era when everybody used all the biggest of big used to go to Studio 54 well the tunnel was what Studio 54 was to that era to our era and it didn't make so many people and nationalities and genres and just everybody was like a big pumbo all for the sake of the culture you had some of the flyest models to some of the biggest drug dealers biggest gang bangers I mean every former elicit street life you could think of was in the spot along with the biggest artists and rappers and actors and models that you could find into all athletes um it would definitely like that um and was this like per invite or just like anybody could Rock up there nah you couldn't just rock up there for this is '90s entry was like $100 first of all $100 for a club that was the first time we ever heard of it and that was a lot of money back then especially we probably started in '94 going there teenager so $100 was sto a lot of money in New York at the time sneakers wasn't even costing $100 um to get in the club you definitely had to be connected to know somebody or you had to wait on a long line that usually was a block long um they had like an Express line you could pay $100 to get on Express line that'll get you to the door quicker and then you pay your entry fee um streets was blocked off you was a big dog you was able to bring your cars down there I was able to bring like four five of them if I wanted to um yeah the club was just it was different man pull up to the door security they taking people's shoes off they searching your jacket twisting people inside out like they about to go on the Rikers Island I got to I gave security High files I never took my shoes off and not since high school I when we used go in high school we used to get our shoes taken off and things like that make you feel like you going to the cental bookings and [ __ ] like that so what gave you that clout that allowed you to bring four cars in when nobody or you had to be a big dog to bring four cars in when you could just give them a high five instead of removing your shoes and you're young by then like what gives you that CL I was a big dog since a small pup bro J yeah man what gave you those you know credentials at such a young age to suppos all these people cuz Dr Tre was there yeah you putting in four cars not removing shoes I was a good Lord Biden citizen everybody love Jim Jones even even the girls like would you just rock up they say let's go to the bathroom that's it yeah now that well yeah there was a lot of that going on they had a uh the layout was different first of all the club was a block long a whole city block um wow there was like three other four other clubs within the club or spots that look like clubs um the main floor was humongously big the DJ was like a a lifeguard Tower in the middle of the club um you go upstairs they had a VR big V PE upstairs and then go through a door it open up to the bathroom the bathroom was like a unisex Club [ __ ] had a big ass bar in the middle of the bathroom uh bunch of stalls lined up um that [ __ ] was like a hotel inside Lions cocaine everything yeah they was going down a lot of sex was going down there a lot of a lot of drugs was going down in there um yeah the tunnel was definitely uh a landmark to New York City when it comes to the clubs I I definitely um I always think about that club um it did a lot for me in my life um it gave me a lot of imagination when it came to to the culture and the things I was seeing from a young age as to where I want to be and the direction I want to go in yeah we was going there since high school so when you seeing people like Mike Tyson and all these people coming in big cheer on and just having their way as a kid go out got to go to school the next morning you you in school thinking about that [ __ ] like w man this school [ __ ] [ __ ] this school [ __ ] I need some money and I need to go to the tunnel that's all I want to [ __ ] do that's wild man now can you imagine because we in sa right we're looking at all the videos that you guys are pulling out there like we're looking at this lifestyle and then you F Track to 2024 right M and the P didy thing breaks out right I mean i' rather not even to get into that yeah just don't I rather the do I don't you know I mean like it's not it's not my business oh I mean like this you heard God bless it's too much n yeah and it's not me to have an opinion on certain things cuz I ain't perfect I've been through my own [ __ ] in life and I see a lot of people that have even this doing too much just know that I ain't perfect so I choose not to talk on certain [ __ ] that you know what I mean a lot of other people people been talking about I let them keep doing the talk and I got other [ __ ] to work on I'm trying to work on me being a better person yeah I respect I respect that man but were ever part of any gang or like you sounding like the F never hey we don't the F in South Africa man only PS I'm just playing with you yeah I've been affiliated with the bloods in New York City um ENT Tre um yeah so crazy have you ever been to sa like have you ever been to Africa or um I've been to Africa where did you go uh gaban gille damn G to perform there um I went to perform there but uh got some great friends there they actually had ran the country at the time this is before the big yeah yeah overtaking and stuff like that but I had a ball out there I got to go to an island called Pony um that was a dope experience as they took me to the jungles I got to see some of the indigenous people um it was like a a real um life Awakening like and I got to see how also the rich people live out there also like I got to see both sides like that you know what I mean it was it was a great experience I out there for like a week um I haven't been back since but yeah it was dope you never been to South Africa never been to South Africa bro so the reason why I asked that is because like yo bro like American culture has infiltrated South Africa like you can't believe like you know we got people worshiping you guys you know Jim Jones rappers and everything you so we've got rappers who rap just like you and youd say they're like Bloods and Crips but they've never they've never left sa you know cuz that's how influential uh the culture is right but from you when you see or hear that like what do you guys think like do you think is like some [ __ ] like or like leave don't don't follow the gang life you know what I mean oh as far as that is concerned um there's two sides to that this what you do as a gang member that turns it into something that becomes a crime or whatever that end but the Brotherhood part of it is what the most of us joined up for when we coming up in the hood and need that Brotherhood lean on somebody is that type of camaraderie that pretty much stood for and there's a lot of other great attributes that comes with affiliation or you becoming a part of a gang um it gets twisted up because we all come up in these urban communities and our back is against the wall we don't have no opportunities um it's very dormant uh we on top of each other so naturally testosterone testosterone wins in a lot of these situations where these kids find s in bad situations and for that I would tell people to kind of stay away from this type of life um I don't want to oppose my will we all going to experience what we going to experience but I can't tell you the consequences to this type of Lifestyle could be very dear you heard ethal a lot of people don't get to make it where I made it and Escape that lifestyle that could have put me away or could have put me in the dirt I mean so here as a Living testament to tell you that these consequences are terrible the odds on you making it out of that life in a positive manner are very slim I mean but if you are in that life and you taking it as a Brotherhood and try to uplift your brothers I know there's a lot of people around you that are doing a lot of [ __ ] that that that that that's very crazy you know what I mean if you're a part of that and you got the positive minder then you try to uplift your brother and instill some positivity within them because it's very cold out here so I've always been curious bro like so when that when you you you start getting immersed you know or Affiliated in the gang life how does that affect the conversation at home with your parents like your mom your dad and just the domestic you know Dynamics I a't grow my parents I was a grown man since I was like 15 I made my own money since I was like 16 my grandmother left me in high school man I was raising my Sisters by myself in the projects I hustle every I ever got in my life that's why music saved my life I was so grateful to be able to be next to cam and him getting a deal at such a very young age to be able to still be making money off that [ __ ] right now you were U anr for Warner uh music group yeah I was the director of anr for Warner Music Group um years ago uh shouts to Kevin L shouts to Leo Cohen for giving me the opportunity um great opportunity uh I excelled at it extremely very young with a lot of power but didn't understand what I had at hand um didn't have too many people in my corner that were telling me the things that I should have been doing with that type of position as opposed to some type of weird way be hating you know I mean so that's what happened but as you get older you learn you learn and you move on who did you discover while you were in that position uh I would tell you a story I I know I've helped try s uh they come to tra songs that you know today he's always in he's always in we know why no n but he was a young kid at the time and uh they were actually going to cut him from the label we had a big uh um it's like uh one of them uh some events they be doing not the talent shows the uh well was something like that all the artists had to come perform and then they pretty much didn't know that they was on a Cho and block at the time when I was an executive and and he was one of the artists that they were going to cut and I remember Kevin L specifically ask me yo what we should do with him I'm about to cut him I don't know what to do with him and when I heard him uh singing and I saw him perform I was like this is this is one artist you should keep and did that and now we all tra songs on so many dope ass records is it true you could have signed Drake yeah I had a chance to sign uh I had a chance to do business with Drake um through Allan grum blat um when I was doing business at cotch um it was a different era I didn't understand what Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he show me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah understand everybody going at my guy I understand the hate man the hate is so phenomenal it's just how this game go man this game is so tricky man these [ __ ] just like females in this game we ain't going to get into that man there's a lot of uh but wait wait wait so so with Drake like are you are you seeing him perform like try songs or like you just heard of the guy just a conversation Allan called me about signing a kid let me hear some of his music um and I was like the kid know how to rap but I don't know what to do with him his image is crazy and him couple years later heard him on a Wheezy mixtape going crazy I was like wow this kid is about to go wham inside of this business and he sure did and you're know trying to call Weezy like yo man I gotta get that kid or something n he was already signed a young money and jcole did you miss on jcole as well I could have signed J Cole bro jcole was in the studio with me every day and at that point jcole I he's he remind me of a knockoff Drake and not to say it like that but that's who he sounded like he came to my studio every day rapping to these Drake beats rapping like Drake Cadence like Drake he could rap his ass off yeah you heard yeah but it was already a drake out there he had the Caesar it was different like two lightskinn [ __ ] might not K when raing the same but you never know what you got in front of you man you dig and those are lessons I I've took with me to moving forward when I see artists and and I hate artists I always give them more than just hearing just just I got to I got to I gotta try to capture the whole picture I make sure I just don't you mean so I don't miss nothing else because I've missed a few people and I've helped a few people um gain a lot of success in in my time in this industry whether it been by me having a meeting with them or me having influence on them or you know I mean so you know and there's never like any animosity like Jake Cole or Drake never came up to be like yo you could have signed me look at me now bro I mean me and Drake is cool as [ __ ] um I see J Cole I don't think he I mean I don't think that's no he some [ __ ] he might want to keep to himself not to be like that sh the co he not that type of artist he's not a you I mean yeah you did I look I look at as we can see I want to mention an artist who like I'm really fond of like I think this guy's [ __ ] amazing musically talented everything that he touched like turned to Gold who's that uh kid k bro K Cy yeah yeah did you help him with his career yeah I birth K Cy wow J me how so bro bir them nobody would have know who K Cy was at all if I a jump on this remix record but it wasn't even remix he wasn't even a nobody like I tell a story all the time I had a inter used to work for me said he got some dudes that do videos they would like to do a video for me told them come let me see they work they show me their videos the first video they showed me was of the kid Cy record he's on the top of a roof some simple video the record sound more wavy than the opportunity for them to do a video I'm like well if you'll get me the beat to this record I Remix this record and then y'all can shoot the video to that record wow and that's what they did and then um the radio station ripped the record off of YouTube and start playing it at Hot 97 and K Cy was born bro why do you think especially about kid Cy cuz from him when I listen to music right it wasn't really no no other kid Cy record besides the one that I was on yeah man he's not in they don't play his records where I be at at all not to be funny wow bro and we listen to him like all that day and night you know remember only record I know yeah it's the only record I know unless it's like a pop record that everybody know and I and I'm even not paying attention to it but he don't his records don't get played nowhere that i' be at not like that unless I go into a different farm and that's the type of music they playing in one of these funny clubs that play fist pump music and pop music he's not into like you dig like they don't play his music in the clubs I'll be at maybe in Vegas and [ __ ] like that but that's not like they not pumping this [ __ ] in live they not pumping this [ __ ] in Atlanta they not pumping this [ __ ] down the Stafford room or you know what I mean like they I'm not saying nothing like that but I don't hear it in the strip clubs I don't hear like you know what I mean so but he's a very successful person with some of the greats like Kanye to put him in a position to win and [ __ ] like that and I think he's way more better as an actor than he is a musician and that's just my POS that's just my opinion he did I seen him in the movie uh about the race car [ __ ] where he was F the playe like he got a lot of Charisma and [ __ ] like that on on camera for what I could see and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean bro I mean for you as Jim Jones to to see these kids you're introduced to them by an intern and then to hop onto that song it's something selfless you know to just give these unknown kids an opportunity of sharing a song with you where do you think that selflessness comes from how was that unknown kid I'm still an unknown kid anytime I get an opportunity that's an opportunity I should be able to give to somebody else bro the fact that you could even come to our podcast shout out man yeah man you don't even know us exactly what you're saying yeah know us what's his name I don't it's fine you know remember those kids who who did the video for him anyway you know remember I remember like that kids that got the biggest African podcast I'm definitely going to know like them is my guys right family right there appreciate I really mean that that sincerely and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean I I bump in too many people in my life and been across too many people in my journey to actually remember everybody's name but the face and the cause and I mean BR I want to understand right the first time you came up with the concept For Love and Hip Hop where were you what was happening that um that was something like uh me and Christy she had opportunity to do uh her own reality show um and actually fell through and that kind of she was kind of she wanted to do that I can see she was eager about doing that when it fell through kind you know I mean [ __ ] with her mood and [ __ ] like that so so so so so the initial concept what was it was just Chrissy just showing like what's life the initial concept was about she had her own thing going on about a group of women that was supposed to do a reality show had nothing to do with me yeah that [ __ ] fell through she lost that opportunity to end up not going people have been begging me to do reality TV for past couple years at the time and I and you reality TV gold man I refused to do it yeah and then when that happened I was like all right I got I'll do this for you and we'll make it about you and females that have to that are involved with artist such as myself and show what the relationship side is when you're dealing with a high-profile artist and you know what I mean how so that's how that started bro and that thing became a monster super super monster like it's still big till this day bro 100% so do you have like uh ownership in that we we were link a all that you know at that time when maybe the second season we just in a position where we refuse to compromise our dignity for anyone or any dollar and sometimes it be like that you know what I mean um but ain't no stress off my back T my hat to him you no but but but we got to talk about that because you see like this podcast um it's blackowned right it's just me and a couple of other people that are involved in the podcast right and we're always striving for ownership so a lot of um Brands and investors have come to try to buy the podcast and we say know cuz like we believe in ownership and telling the story the way we want to tell it right so what went wrong in that because as a hustler I believe like that's your also end goal MH um it wasn't something that I was just a lot of different layers and [ __ ] like that and I was too worried about doing other things and we had the opportunity to gain all ownership 50% of the whole TV show and all that but it still wasn't worth GE bro that's insane you just let go like that yeah bro it's your brain child bro there is no Love and& Hip Hop without you bro I still got a brain you heard yeah those are for people that don't have a brain that lack creativity people that steal things from you lack what you don't have remember that yeah whether it's money whether it's creativity whatever it is they lack what you don't have ultimately they steal from you you heard I mean we didn't even know C beef if it wasn't for Love and& Hip Hop right yeah yeah yeah definitely yeah bro you gave birth to so many many people man like VI their careers that's the god in me that's why I'm always going to be good yeah she man so any other shows that you're working on like in the pipeline that you want to do I was telling you I working on um a late night show a late night um a late night variety show live in studio audience hopefully we'll be filming in about 40 to 60 days um beautiful concept I do I do believe people going enjoy the show um like I was saying I can't do um a podcast is too personal for me and [ __ ] like that and me watching these podcasts um dealing with these artists me myself don't have the temperament for it you know what I mean um I [ __ ] I T my hat to y'all to have to deal with artists such as myself cuz you never know what type of mood they going to come in you know what I me some of these artists have a air to them where they feel like they better than most and they would never sit and have tea with the with the maintenance guy you heard me myself me going to maintenance guy going to smoke blunts before I get on stage [Music] I live my life and and and currently uh before we let you go man what do you think about the state of hip-hop cuz like statistically numbers wise it's not looking good man e beats has played all over New York now there's now the pianos this is this is what they want you to do this is how to get us to go against each other it's all under the same culture umbrella it's afro music ref I'm a piano I'm a piano explain that what do you mean by that bro yeah R&B what do you mean by that ultimately it's all from under the same origin and creativity of the same person from the same colors is all our thing n but let's be honest Jimmy hip-hop hasn't involved bro when I was listening to Eminem what do you want mean what do you mean hip-hop hasn't evolved you guys are still rapping about the same stuff it don't you you missing the point of what hip-hop is yeah hip-hop has evolved to a point that you can be the music genres that you're told them about can be noticed you think that if there was a hip hop that I'm a piano would be noticed or afro Beach would be noticed think about that and not to take nothing away from y because you always have culture and yes that music might be big within the continent of Africa yeah right but to cross over to American Fame and commercialism you don't think that the hip-hop culture played a big part in that that's that that's a different argument now you want to have a different argument I'm telling you the semantics of where we going with this you dig like you talking about uh the the hip hop music is damn percentage that's how they want us to think when it's really not cuz we all uplifting each other you heard you think that the country music that's going on in the black people winning is not because of the hip-hop culture no no no I think no one is disputing that however so then when you say hip-hop numbers are down and damn for who no I'm talking about I know what you're talking about but damn for who tell me who it's down for because I'm still making the money I make yeah I do believe there's still a lot of artist that's making a shitload of money that they make I don't think it went down for them yeah you know what I mean but I understand what you're talking about they say the numbers and then rock and roll genre might be up like I don't really you heard like that's I'm into this business you heard and it's always up for us you heard cuz this is a business we make money out of nothing it's never a downside to this okay and and that's why I'm saying I think we're having two different conversations here cuz the conversation I'm having is I'm having I'm having right is that in as much as he's saying yeah the numbers are down because they orchestrated and whatever I get that right but also that's why I asked do you think Hip-hop has evolved cuz I grew up on hip-hop right and the same things um quote unquote you guys were rapping about in the '90s how can hipop how can hip hop evolved in the same thing that Africa been Africa been going on since the '90s aren't y going still going through the same thing we are huh we are so how could the music evolve when the music ref the time ah okay get you real stories what you want us to rap about [ __ ] that that we don't have ah we talk about [ __ ] we dream about all the time that's the good The Good Life the colorin the Ros we talk about but the truth is how the music going to change when our position hasn't changed when we still going through the same [ __ ] we've been going through okay and y'all being from Africa should know that more than we know that yeah that's facts that's fact go about that own Cod yeah yeah yeah yeah you know are bro that's a valid fact but how do you feel man like you've come from an era where you guys when what you you said in your raps I mean evolved as far as dition as far as what we rap about cuz we still stuck in the same place but as a business it has evolved to one of big time yeah yeah biggest big time money making machines you can attach yourself to this made some of the richest individuals whether you're the rapper the lawyer the executive like that's true you know what I mean the supply chain but then I think that's why you know when you get the likes of a wz coming out and Kendrick Lamar they stand out like a sore thumb because like they are rapping about but that's what music is about to stand out for those who that want to look like everybody they don't get nowhere why you think Dip set was so successful sucessful yeah because we stood out on purpose we don't want to look like or H or sound like no one else m we want yall to above all see us when we walk in the building and hear us when we get on that [ __ ] mic you heard why would you guys the diplomats I never like where did that come from the diplomats the name the diplomats yeah we diplomats oh ah okay that sounded cool no we diplomats we are Harlem diplomats and we take it as that you heard we go to the Embassy when we land in countries you heard all right okay okay okay I I sort of get that bro so in the business and how you still making money right now like from music just like how is it royalties damn you asking a lot of questions bro no I want to know bro I'm so I've got so many questions I want to ask you bro I'll tell you this music is supposed to be used so you can make as much ancillary dollars as you can because the music ain't promised everybody 15 minutes of fame ranges from a small 15 minutes of fame to a run like we having within that minute the 15 minutes the fame you better do a lot of other things to secure your bag because music is not going to be thing you be able to get paid off forever unless you're the DRS and the J that's not even 1% that's you know what I mean so you think about that so you better have some hustle you better learn how to you better have some business sense you better put your credit in order you better do a few things to secure you if you are artist [ __ ] leverage powerful penda yeah man how do you feel man when these kids these days wrap up about you know trying to act tough and rap about stuff they never done like you guys red about stuff you lived I mean I do believe a lot of these kids are going through a lot of [ __ ] that we went through and then a lot of the kids are talking about [ __ ] that they see but most of the kids are all growing up in the same community that all of that [ __ ] is going on so who tells them they don't have the right to talk about [ __ ] that they're not doing when that's still [ __ ] that they're seeing oh sure Ah that's powerful but the problem I have a problem when they rapping like they did it but they just R from somebody else's Vantage Point understand that but most of these artists that you've seen in the game some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I pretty firm in his in in his music that I'm a believer that he did some of that [ __ ] he can talk about just me I don't know you possibilities are possibilities but some things just seem correct you know mean I can't tell you for sure cuz it is music you know what I mean but some things seem correct [ __ ] man bro you got to come out to man you got to you know we haven't had a proper uh hip-hop concert in sa like since 50 N since you are come on back to the city does concerts man ah those are for old people empd the bigest artist in South Africa right now Hip-Hop Hip-Hop uh there's a guy called nastyc but nesty came here he doesn't know know you f poopa who's that nah F poopa Nigerian West African artist massive he used to pop not now for real still massive bigger than like ber boyo still it's different type of music oh stadiums is 50 60,000 people like what is this following this gu what's his name f poop F poop I don't know him bro he's from Nigeria yeah yeah yeah yeah Nigerian Prett pretty big yeah humongous bro how big was was 50 Cent bro like during his Reign man like how big was 50 Cent [ __ ] retardedly big it wasn't nothing bigger than him was Drake before Drake was dring he was oh [ __ ] he did it like it was like 50 was on a run that he never even touched the club bro like [ __ ] never seen him in the club he only did Arenas I never knew too many artist that just did that you dig like the [ __ ] was super massive every [ __ ] Rec he came out with was was going platinum and I'm just telling you the facts you heard and I always got to speak factual no matter how I feel about a person the [ __ ] was on top Super on top it was no way to knock him off his d i remember Jay-Z dropped the diss track on you did you guys resolve that beef I think you were not happy with him as the president of De jam oh man um we never really had a beef um we had some feuds back and forth through the situations that were going on over other people um and me being who I am I had to hold my ground um but to know that he actually talked about me in multiple of his records mean that I was pretty big in his eyes you dig true true cuz I didn't hear him talk about too many people in his career and if he did talk you talk about you on the record that meant something you know what I mean and I was then so for me that I I I took that like what it was like you dig like yeah J doesn't respond to take the time out to say my name you heard if I'm if I'm not that big of a deal to you you would never ever a am I am I right talk about a person you heard true it's it's a form of respect and ackowledge 100% am I right in saying a lot of [ __ ] are scared of Jay-Z bro cuz we interviewed Dam Ian I don't I don't know I'm not a lot of [ __ ] you heard I'm a man so I couldn't I I couldn't tell you that you heard I ain't scared to nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that that that dentist yeah the dentist got me there you heard you can walk in you could walk we about to fight right now you a dentist walk in you got it you got it like you got it bow down you got it I don't want no smoke let me get out of here M fact word Jimmy before you go man uh what beefs did you have so you had something beef with Jay-Z right no man I just told you we had some feuds stemming from that's beef bro stemming from other things that going on um my problem like it was all part of Us coming up in the game and things were happening we were signing a Rockefeller cam was sign a Rockefeller actually then we got opportunity to Diplomat records um the split between uh Jay and Dame came um artist took sides some took the J side some took the the Dame side which side were you on we was on the Dame side OB Dash yeah Dame Dash that's do you think Dame Dash is misunderstood bro huh you think Dame Dash is misunderstood um too smart for his own good I get that yeah if you had the opportunity again you sometimes being the smartest person in the room could be held against you especially when you want everybody to know that you're the smartest person in the room yeah yeah yeah and I get given a second chance would you still side with Dam never you wouldn't never whoa I never signed a d at all that was no no no like sided with him took his side oh give a second chance I wouldn't have sided with none of them I would we would haveed our [ __ ] business but you learned that with age yeah you heard we had no business butting into that because it wasn't a street beef and this wasn't some [ __ ] that had to do with us ultimately we were holding our [ __ ] down and [ __ ] like that but business-wise if we would if we knew what we knew now we would let them get into that they self y'all can handle that because we got records to put out and music to make and we got our own record label to run you dig and this my hinder what we got going on by us taking sides and that's why I tell people now even when people seeing all the Diplomat [ __ ] like y bro don't don't get in to taking sides with me and my bro because you never know how that might end up and if it end up to a point where we do figure out our situation then I'm looking at you funny now me and you got forever you heard you dig and there are plenty of people that did that and plenty people that didn't and plenty people that showed the same amount of love that he showed to me that it showed to cam when we were going through our imaginary situations and [ __ ] like that cuz it's all imaginary when you know you can figure figure it out now it's a saying that like don't just be in people's business when especially when they've beef and take sides cuz and I I had to learn that a lot I had took me a long time to learn that because of how we come up in the Cod that they supposedly treat us in teach us in the street and [ __ ] like that but sometimes that's not the smallest thing that we can do and then uh push a t did you ever beef with him nah that was some [ __ ] that we was on record um he did some [ __ ] I did some [ __ ] you dig that was it I never followed that I didn't even know did you know there's a pusher T me I ain't got no just know I don't know I know you're from I know you're from Africa and [ __ ] like that but people don't play with me yeah for real and I don't I don't play with people this ain't no playground you heard this is the street it's two ways don't get caught up in a yellow line it's going to be hard to cross bro yeah you heard no I don't trust me I'm from Africa but I saw what happened at the airport so that [ __ ] escalated yeah [ __ ] that was self-defense man God yo bro it looked like that guy was just messing with you bro I wish that could have never happened cuz I was trying to avoid that by all cause but [ __ ] happened sometime man you dig and definitely not not going to allow anybody do anything to me at all bro when I saw that video right like I don't know I just met you today right but I saw when you lifted that guy from the escalator threw him down he literally just went on survival mode bro like it's like there was a button that you switched on and you just like I don't [ __ ] care but yeah yeah no I mean no that's a button that I choose not to push you heard yeah exactly like you can go there quickly I choose to show restraint for a lot of reasons in my life and sometimes it's hard to you dig but where I'm at in life right now I choose positivity or all the other things that come out my way because I know how it is to be negative I was once that negative person that was very aggressive and ready to do something to to you over the minimal alistic of things and [ __ ] like that so I'm blessed to be here to try to be able to show restraint and so so the guy so the guy at the airport you guys on the same plane yeah we on the same plane so you don't have a private jet no I don't have a private jet I'm not a rich man come on Jimmy you made so much money over the years but anyway so you're in the plane what's he what's this guy saying to you like um I don't know man just [ __ ] happens I know just the started from the plane just know that what you see happen on so it starts on the plane you restrain yourself you're like all right cool my dog say whatever you want to say yeah when he gets to the airport I mean the escalator that's when I think he starts hitting you or something right yeah something like that he tried to do something like that and that's what we see man but like I said this is not something that I want to glorify it's not you think he knows who you are um if if he didn't he know now no I'm I'm sorry see sorry cuz some people just provoke I believe he was he was trolling a little bit and things like that which is cool you I mean I'm if if you in New York not time 10 you do know who I am so you know I believe it was a bit of that but God bless man hopefully that they all right hopefully the old man um cool you dig like are you spiritual cuz you mentioned God a lot man yeah I'm very spiritual very spiritual very spiritual I've been my whole family is spiritual and what does that mean in an American sense cuz um us as African for me it means a lot of different things um I was told what the church was as a young age as they drag you to church every Sunday your grandmother your moms and your family and things like that and you really don't understand what that is from that young but as you get older and you go through certain things and you make it through certain things you understand that there is a God and everybody has a relationship with their God different and sometimes going to church doesn't mean that you love your God any less or he loves you any less you dig and you say spiritual I'm very spiritual I say my prayers as much as I can sometime two three four times in a day you dig man doesn't take away from what I do and who I am because I'm still in the line for everything else everybody is in but I know every day that I'm able to wake up and every day I'm able to make a dollar and every day I'm able to keep living the life that I am I should be thankful you heard cuz that's not just me that's a higher vibration that's definitely a God you dig and I'm well aware that I've escaped many things in life that Lord knows I should not be here but then again I should be here cuz he put here for a reason he gives his toughest battles to his strongest people what the Bible say you heard and I've made it through some very tough battles which are minimal to some of the people that I had next to me in their battles you know what I mean so it's like we all got to figure it out Jim Jones thank you so much man and thanks to God for bringing you here man definitely I appreciate for making time for us bro thank you man we appreciate you tired when you got you I appreciate the fact that you could even make it man got any last question yeah man bro you said you've gone through some tough battles and you mentioned how you lost your dad at like 26 but also that you you pretty much raised yourself from the age of 15 you know from that relationship or lack of it like has it affected how you father your children 100% this made me the best father I could be but me my relationship with my father was always a great one even though he wasn't there because every day he wasn't I love them even more I wasn't one of them kids that was bitter you dig I understand that everybody went through something and at that age what he was going through there was a lot of drug addiction and I knew that from a very young age I understood what drugs was and how they were tearing up my family I never held that against my father and I was just blessed able to get back with him before he passed away so he could see that his son was making something out of himself at that time I was already signed to her uh we think we just got the Rockefeller deal so it was a very big deal for me to be able to get back with my father to show him that me somebody that you should be proud of and I know him looking down right now got be like damn I did that so you know and that's how I feel but then in turn TR here my son I don't you know I mean like I just you know mean I pride myself on making sure that I I turned my son into somebody that was way better than I could ever be you oh man yeah that's my guy shout out to you man is your son still wearing Crocs to you br he's a Croc guy you heard yeah Crocs for Life bro Crocs for Life jumping out the beam with a fresh paer Crocs on I don't want to stand him Jimmy before you go your top five rappers all time my top five rappers of all you got to give us your top five bro yeah Tupac definitely Jay-Z Drake um Drake he not like us by default of course um rock cam no Eminem No No whoa not even big you from NY and not to take nothing away from him he's extremely nice it's retardedly nice when it comes to rap but I listen to artists that kind of you know I mean do something for the life that I live and kind of what I've been through and most of these artist or artist that I'm talking about people that you know what I mean like [ __ ] better stop hating on my boy Drake all of a sudden all this Drake land I get it I get it you ain't like us let's not do that let's not forget the 15 years he been spanking [ __ ] around this [ __ ] all all all over this [ __ ] all the alley he been giving most of these artists that are now seeming to be turning on them let's you know let's not some of them gave him their best hits let's not forget the big picture here and [ __ ] like but what the hip-hop culture and this game is built on competition so I yeah but what is he with it you heard you better put your best foot forward but what has Drake given back to the culture oh that you so love here we go um what is he giving back to the culture I seen him take a lot of people on tour and turn them even richer than they already was I I seen him give a lot of people hits that they would have never had if he wouldn't have got on a record things for the culture that wouldn't have happened in turn records that we would have never knew about him to record that the culture love and things like that I mean he's not from here Canada from the hood I don't believe he owes America too much but the monster that give back to where he's from maybe we should ask about what has he done in Canada giving back to his community as opposed to what he giving back to the culture of the United States when this is not where he's from and I think that's the Divide right there now if we talk about what he's done in Canada and if it's not up to par then maybe we can talk about oh you dig but that's I think that's for the people of Canada you dig like yeah cuz but it's the people of America in the hood who made him of course you heard about but that he didn't grw up in America he didn't grew up here you heard so if you was an artist from Africa yeah like boy yeah do you think bnab boy has responsibility what do Niger of United stes n I'm taking it back home bro super duper big yes but that's what people then will call a culture vulture cuz you come into a space you know do what the people of that space do benefit from them is is is you understand what we doing like it's bro it's not because he's not take so he's not taking benab boy is Nigerian it's a Nigerian culture that is now popular in America so Drake took an American culture and enriched himself but what he's saying is that he doesn't owe anything to America cuz he's not from yet right okay right yeah I mean [ __ ] he's got no obligation Fair argument he got no obligation Fair argument yeah like he lived if he lived like I don't I don't that's how I see it you heard like that's how I see it you dig but all these [ __ ] we talking about are filthy filthy filthy rich off the opinions of men you heard what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never but what I'm just trying to tell you is how this game is played yeah you heard yeah geez man the more we talk the more they get paid the loser still gets paid too if there is a loser I don't think there's a loser when they all getting Millions off of this [ __ ] I don't think I mean like and I understand end all be all in the whole circle of it but I'm I've been in this [ __ ] for so long I'm miss you can see the politics of really get you to understand of what's really going on and [ __ ] like that this [ __ ] don't pay me a dollar to talk about it yeah hey man how tight you with Joe Bon he calls us those African guys with numbers oh yeah yeah yeah Jo this my guy buts what's up man he cool yeah he's an instigator definely know how to get under people's skin yeah I've known Joan for so long [ __ ] like that um I'm proud of him put himself in his position a whole new Lane to make a shitload of money um where it stem from the culture this what I'm talking about all the ancillary things that you need to get going on if are a artist of some type of success you got to use that to get where you want look at Joe used his startom and rap no matter what it was to able to finesse a whole new Lane of podcasting that true he's pretty big in damn near one of the forefathers of it from our culture right y'all started before him or after him we started after him but now we have more numbers than him hey doesn't matter no numbers do matter I mean no J and get num I'm cool with that but you won't be never be the considered the forefather of this whole no no no no no no no you dig 100% yeah it's Jo Joan numbers is cool I'm cool with that you get paid and I know what's a race you might be number one you heard yeah yeah but you still never be the forefather always going to have that under him like I've created this Lane for your how I feel about Ling hip hop yeah of course I got that under my belt that's mine y can never say that was yours at all yeah okay how much money you made off of it and [ __ ] like that at the end of the day you it's mine you heard Still My still mine so we always ask anybody any guest that we get on the show in closing what do you want to be remembered as man when it's all said and done I want I want to be remembered I want I want them to know that I gave more than I took because I was able to take a lot in my time amen just like that sh hey man I wish you put me on love and& hip-hop bro they got the African love of Hip Hop they got Jamaican love of Hip Hop they got they got any type of Love of Hip Hop we need the South African love of Hip Hop thanks Jim man shout out thank you bro I appreciate you man thank you we appreciate podcast and chill we out of here man boom peace welcome to Black excellenc do not fear for if you do just sip on some Grand and if you still do ask ourselves what would M [Music] do when they ask you do not fear for if you do just say an TV this is the the medicine of censorship this is the pill which one is that one podcast and chill	your bag because music is not going to be thing you be able to get paid off forever unless you're the DRS and the J that's not even 1% that's you know what I mean so you think about that so you better have some hustle you better learn how to you better have some business sense you better put your credit in order you better do a few things to secure you if you are artist [ __ ] leverage powerful penda yeah man how do you feel man when these kids these days wrap up about you know trying to act tough and rap about stuff they never done like you guys red about stuff you lived I mean I do believe a lot of these kids are going through a lot of [ __ ] that we went through and then a lot of the kids are talking about [ __ ] that they see but most of the kids are all growing up in the same community that all of that [ __ ] is going on so who tells them they don't have the right to talk about [ __ ] that they're not doing when that's still [ __ ] that they're seeing oh sure Ah that's powerful but the problem I have a problem when they rapping like they did it but they just R from somebody else's Vantage Point understand that but most of these artists that you've seen in the game	-5	7	8	your bag because music is not going to be thing you be able to get paid off forever unless you're the DRS and the J that's not even 1% that's you know what I mean so you think about that so you better have some hustle you better learn how to you better have some business sense you better put your credit in order you better do a few things to secure you if you are artist	how do you feel man when these kids these days wrap up about you know trying to act tough and rap about stuff they never done like you guys red about stuff you lived I mean I do believe a lot of these kids are going through a lot of [ __ ] that we went through and then a lot of the kids are talking about [ __ ] that they see but most of the kids are all growing up in the same community that all of that [ __ ] is going on so who tells them they don't have the right to talk about [ __ ] that they're not doing when that's still [ __ ] that they're seeing oh sure Ah that's powerful but the problem I have a problem when they rapping like they did it but they just R from somebody else's Vantage Point understand that but most of these artists that you've seen in the game	2,-5,8	4,6,-2	2	-5	8	4	6	-2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr730VmL-lk	4,054	rr730VmL-lk	2024-06-27 00:00:00	like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano no well Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he showed me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah just understand everybody going there my guy I understand the hate exactly what you're saying yeah bro what's his name I don't it's fine you remember those some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I ain't scared of nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that the dentist yeah dentist got me there what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never [Music] [Music] yo Jimmy you do not look like you want to be here bro like someone forced you to be it's like you have to do that par they're the biggest podcast in Africa you have to be there I never look like I want to be nowhere man you got to part of me but congratulations to yall having the biggest podcast in Africa that that that's very big Africa being one of the biggest continents in the world a lot of people over there shut up man why you so tired bro crazy weekend I've been working all weekend shows different states traveling Planes Trains automobiles you know how I be a little bit too much partying yeah road kill it's tough but what's up how y'all feeling I'm good bro I literally saw um I saw your video uh yesterday for your new single the one you shot in Miami two turn temp yeah yeah how you feel about it bro that [ __ ] is lit man looks like our Vibe bro cuz we've been to Miami myself and and my partner but we never like experienced the Miami night life we were playing in Florida yeah we're DJing in Florida but two South Africans like the diaspora then West Palm Beach as well yeah DJ also yeah like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano what it's a genre it's called a piano no no cuz I'm a piano even you heard like you saw he did the whole Keys thing it has nothing to do with the piano that's where it started but has nothing to do with it these days when when I met charlot man he said the exact same thing he's like oh so you're a podcaster I'm like yeah and then you DJs I'm like no I play I'm a Pian like you're a Pianist man you one talented [ __ ] n it's a genre of music man what kind of genre is that like it's like slowed down house music with a lot of s that African influence that's the only way I can describe it so it's a it's a mix of a marriage house yeah a marriage of house music which originated here at Chicago and stuff and then we slowed it down created a sub genre called guo where guys were sort of rapping but very minimalist raps called guo then the kids were born like in the 2000s late '90s then created a whole meshup of those two genres and it's called Piano cuz a a lot of Americans think it's um afro beats it's not afro beats yeah a lot of the hence I avoided saying afro beats cuz AFR beats is from Nigeria and amap piano is far from afro beat afro beat borrows from am piano now where is amap piano originated from South Africa from the hoods from the Cassis yeah but when I when I was looking at your video bro uh the only thing in my mind was like bro what's a night like out with Jim Jones CU that [ __ ] look lit there [ __ ] everywhere bro um please please describe a night out in Miami with Jim so let's say we going to Miami right now I mean some nice are better than others but been doing it so long it's kind of like the the bare minimum for us to do in Miami just having fun but it still work at the same time like every every I'm I'm not just going out partying for no reason ni like that was we knew what we was kind of getting into we wanted to film a video so we knew we was going to ramp it up a bit take it to the to the highest form going crazy as we could but that actually happened to fall on a big weekend um and one of my dudes was celebrating so everything kind of happened for a reason but yeah Miami could take you for take you for a few a few trips man like okay so so so me and you we get in the car right I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm in Miami I hate you cuz you got a house there you stay there right yeah I got I got I got cribs there so I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm by the strip you know that Miami strip right yeah yeah yeah I mean see that's the thing about Miami when you come to visit Miami that's where people are know at like the strip and things like that I guess stand by Collins and ocean driveing all that people that live there don't really do the strip like that like you just you dig people congregate usually at night time and all the spots that usually go on down there um okay so we got security obviously you got to roll around with security right um yeah I mean that' be the safest thing for me to do so we get out the cut with security when you get to the bouncers are they letting us in cuz it's Jim Jones or are they checking our IDs cuz they've been checking our IDs just to buy beer here bro Che ID everywhere yeah everywhere yeah no I I don't think I produced my ID in since I was a teenager at clubs but yeah you won't need your ID when you with me so we walking in right yeah we going to get in oh do we have a section do we they going to give us a section VIP yeah they going to give us a section we going to get some bottles and let the night ensue got this thing called Power Hour you go to the club maybe like 2:45 to 3:45 in and out no sweat so what's the what's the purpose of that exercise the Power Hour yeah like why would you be in the cloud for an hour why would I be in a club for 4 hours it's Fu I mean I've been part I've been partying since I've been 14 I've been making money to party since I've been 18 I'm kind of burnt out so at this point I try to wait till the club is at the most popping or lest moment which is usually that hour right there and I get to enjoy everything that happened tonight and leave out of there and not be all burnt out what what does your wife say bro cuz you're married man you're surrounded by all these girls like you know I mean I'm going to worry about the women yeah is minimal to the money worry about the money more than anything so so a woman doesn't like give you grief when you come home I yeah you get you get grief all the time if you in a relationship no matter what you do if you had a job on Wall Street you get home you're going to get grief no around it you heard yeah there's women everywhere unless you work in the LGBT Club then you know I mean even there you still going to go home and get like it's no way around it you're going to get you know I mean like yeah so you've never had like been home and you had to explain like yo no man I was just doing music video it's just work like I don't know that good you going to explain yourself in every relationship and things like that I got a good woman at home who understands a job I have and things like that so for the most part but for the most part I'm a very responsible respectable person when when I'm in the streets and when I do have to interact with females and things like that yeah anyway H ladies and gentlemen welcome to another special edition of podcasting chill so CU yeah I am here we're chilling with the [ __ ] Legend Kings of Harlem please make some noise for Jim Jones Jim I gotta say bro I gotta say bro I'm going to be honest with you when I find that your name was GMO geloo gelo I'm like I'm like Jim Jones losing some G points here man what the [ __ ] is that I'm Puerto Rican and a rubian my pops is Puerto Rican the word gelo means William in English is a Spanish Spanish name cuz you know what I was thinking I was thinking that guy who does the show late night you know the short guy who does like the interviews with um this late night comedian man what are the late night shows oh man not uh bad with these oh gosh the late night guy bro uhri or something not Corin O'Brien no not Trevor Noah the other American guy man like uh old new no he's like jimm Kimel Jimmy Kimel jimy he's got that he's got that short guy his name is julo oh I don't I don't I don't got got me messed up I don't even really watch TV like that bro okay I'll be out chasing the money I ain't even got time to do that and if and if I do got some time I'm trying to get a little bit of rest or I'm thinking about money [ __ ] is crucial out here right now you better get to your dollar a lot of [ __ ] about to happen and if you ain't got no coins boy you going to be [ __ ] up you ever been to uh Puerto Rico yeah I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times yeah but business not for the Heritage part of it so like you don't know where like your your your parents were at Familiar of the place where my father's from but I never really got to do the whole go to give with my family understand the roots understand you know I mean like I didn't get to get to that part of it but I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times you find like that's important like to know you it's definitely important I had this um I did an interview not too long ago about um how important the roots are and get to know where my family from know I mean so we'll start to do that pretty soon so so so your dad you know you know your dad right yeah he's passed away oh okay God bless rest in peace what happened to him he passed away yeah like was it um medical thing or yeah natural causes oh damn like when you young or um maybe when I was uh 23 24 oh damn bro SED to hear that man maybe 26 right before my son passed right before my God bless right before my son Bor bro but you like 47 right now I look good for 47y old man no homo you know what I mean thank you very much like what was what's keeping you looking so good is it the yoga yeah a lot of yoga a lot of Pilates I stay in shape um I'm very uh very big on Fitness um work out like five six times a week um it's one of the best ways to stay young and have better chances of living a long life is that why you do it or maybe there's other purpose like you know a lot of people are in gym for their mental health I mean it's very it's very it's very therapeutic I will say that but my main goal is to look good of course but to give me better chances of living forever bro so how you got into rap um I don't know correct me if I'm wrong right but you used to skip church and go to the train station to to rap like no I never skipped Church to go on the train station and rap I skipped Church to go to the train station and go play video games and run the streets and do everything a bad little kid did from the streets of hollow when we was like S8 and n and things like that I don't know if you know about anything about the subway system in New York but that's the pathway system that get you to all five burrows and we definitely was on the subway which maybe we shouldn't have been but we was a little uh loose um for me rapping actually rapping didn't start later on in life to actually uh C and um they I got a deal and things like that and that was the first time me myself really thought about actually raing cuz I'll be honest with you like um dipet I don't really know much about dipet however I know about you guys individually like Cameron old boy like one of my favorite songs uh jul sna had hear that that was Cameron and Jules and jwes he both was on he both old boy and heon yeah why don't you jump on those tracks man those tracks are massive they was already done I was there for the making of both of them incredible tracks yeah and then how did dipit start start like how did you guys start the whole movement um organically kiss him Harem gr up together um talented kids Cam and Mason BL sh was they already was doing music um Everybody gradu graduated high school I didn't get to go to college they went to college they got kicked out they got kicked out they come moved in with me from that that was a uh foundation for them to D into the music you've been in the game for like 20 30 odd years right been in the game for since 1997 how would you describe the different eras of like um hip-hop right especially now cuz um obviously we all know about the Kendrick Lamar song they're not like us but I didn't know how big it was until I landed in in in America and it's like it's like a movement the video yeah it's like huge it's massive bro yeah it's a big record Kendrick did that shout out to Kendrick shout out to my boy Drake but what do you think about like the evolution of hip-hop in all the different areas you've been a part of what do you mean what do I think about it it's a great thing to be a part of something that um you could only dream of everybody doesn't get a chance to be in this game um I've been fortunate enough to be here for so many genres and errors and seen so many people come and go I've watched the smallest artist to the biggest artist who you thow will be here forever and going um I got stories for days I can tell you about um how I feel about it I feel great I feel blessed you know what I mean I feel lucky this [ __ ] don't it's not promised and for me to still be here is definitely a blessing so in the 90s what was the vibe like man like like what in the 90s as far as what in hip-hop yeah it was it was different um 90s was a great era um one of my favorite errors um that was the era we first first came outside um started to get out deal uh very aggressive era uh no social media um cell phones were just being born um everything that you seen you was something that you could grab on to um artists had to go to the towns we couldn't just get on your phone and music you had to go get you couldn't just have access to it so it was a it was it it was a hunt um you had to touch the Tails kiss babies do radio everything like it was just a different ER but who was around like during that time when you who was around like Tupac was did you like meet Tupac Tupac I didn't get to meet Tupac um Tupac passed away what 95 was that yeah right in big in '97 um no I got to see Tupac do a few times in Harlem um that was dope but um not Tupac passed away before we got to get in the record game but I've seen a lot of a lot of artists in my time from a young age to old age we were partying in clubs as teenagers before we even got a record deal and things like that like we were in clubs since high school and [ __ ] like that so any interactions with Big L he was from Harlem right yeah shouts to Big Al Big Al was definitely from Harlem um 139th NFL Big L um I was one of the Cam's uh close friends um actually put cam on a dope record that started to give uh Cam and bloodshed and and her mcgree her was already popping too but guy gave them some notice when it came to R so when you come out like who's who's popping at that time is it git is it mop D it's way before G when we came out I was like Eminem just dropped oh [ __ ] this is Slim Shady not M like Slim Shady I I remember that that was like cam had dropped and Eminem had dropped DMX had dropped Nori had dropped um Big Pun had dropped lud Chris Luda had just started coming out um Nelly Nelly down down baby yeah shouts to coola love um yeah that type of error shouts to shouts to Fat Joe shouts to Buster they was already in it uh Nas was already in it Jay start going crazy that's when he just started taking over with the 1 million 2 million 3 million 4 um yeah very competitive very edgy um lot of the big dogs um had real roots in the streets um especially in the streets of New York so that put that put a real Mystique on everything when it came to the music um all the events with topnotch um it just was a different feel man it was a heavy heavy dope boy era um this was before the drug dealers wanted to be Rappers that's when the rappers wanted to be drug dealers you know what I mean and and that Arrow was was a very dope high impact trenel and Russian it was a was a great error bro I saw an interview you did correct me if I'm wrong I might be paraphrasing but you mentioned a place called the tunnel or something where everybody would be and you guys were [ __ ] [ __ ] in the bathrooms please please describe that manest cuz a place like that couldn't exist right now bro with all this woke [ __ ] I mean yeah and the cancel cult I would say it was probably the greatest Club The Hip hopers have seen and it was during the 90s era it was the Golden Era um in New York they got you had stories about like Studio 54 in that era when everybody used all the biggest of big used to go to Studio 54 well the tunnel was what Studio 54 was to that era to our era and it didn't make so many people and nationalities and genres and just everybody was like a big pumbo all for the sake of the culture you had some of the flyest models to some of the biggest drug dealers biggest gang bangers I mean every former elicit street life you could think of was in the spot along with the biggest artists and rappers and actors and models that you could find into all athletes um it would definitely like that um and was this like per invite or just like anybody could Rock up there nah you couldn't just rock up there for this is '90s entry was like $100 first of all $100 for a club that was the first time we ever heard of it and that was a lot of money back then especially we probably started in '94 going there teenager so $100 was sto a lot of money in New York at the time sneakers wasn't even costing $100 um to get in the club you definitely had to be connected to know somebody or you had to wait on a long line that usually was a block long um they had like an Express line you could pay $100 to get on Express line that'll get you to the door quicker and then you pay your entry fee um streets was blocked off you was a big dog you was able to bring your cars down there I was able to bring like four five of them if I wanted to um yeah the club was just it was different man pull up to the door security they taking people's shoes off they searching your jacket twisting people inside out like they about to go on the Rikers Island I got to I gave security High files I never took my shoes off and not since high school I when we used go in high school we used to get our shoes taken off and things like that make you feel like you going to the cental bookings and [ __ ] like that so what gave you that clout that allowed you to bring four cars in when nobody or you had to be a big dog to bring four cars in when you could just give them a high five instead of removing your shoes and you're young by then like what gives you that CL I was a big dog since a small pup bro J yeah man what gave you those you know credentials at such a young age to suppos all these people cuz Dr Tre was there yeah you putting in four cars not removing shoes I was a good Lord Biden citizen everybody love Jim Jones even even the girls like would you just rock up they say let's go to the bathroom that's it yeah now that well yeah there was a lot of that going on they had a uh the layout was different first of all the club was a block long a whole city block um wow there was like three other four other clubs within the club or spots that look like clubs um the main floor was humongously big the DJ was like a a lifeguard Tower in the middle of the club um you go upstairs they had a VR big V PE upstairs and then go through a door it open up to the bathroom the bathroom was like a unisex Club [ __ ] had a big ass bar in the middle of the bathroom uh bunch of stalls lined up um that [ __ ] was like a hotel inside Lions cocaine everything yeah they was going down a lot of sex was going down there a lot of a lot of drugs was going down in there um yeah the tunnel was definitely uh a landmark to New York City when it comes to the clubs I I definitely um I always think about that club um it did a lot for me in my life um it gave me a lot of imagination when it came to to the culture and the things I was seeing from a young age as to where I want to be and the direction I want to go in yeah we was going there since high school so when you seeing people like Mike Tyson and all these people coming in big cheer on and just having their way as a kid go out got to go to school the next morning you you in school thinking about that [ __ ] like w man this school [ __ ] [ __ ] this school [ __ ] I need some money and I need to go to the tunnel that's all I want to [ __ ] do that's wild man now can you imagine because we in sa right we're looking at all the videos that you guys are pulling out there like we're looking at this lifestyle and then you F Track to 2024 right M and the P didy thing breaks out right I mean i' rather not even to get into that yeah just don't I rather the do I don't you know I mean like it's not it's not my business oh I mean like this you heard God bless it's too much n yeah and it's not me to have an opinion on certain things cuz I ain't perfect I've been through my own [ __ ] in life and I see a lot of people that have even this doing too much just know that I ain't perfect so I choose not to talk on certain [ __ ] that you know what I mean a lot of other people people been talking about I let them keep doing the talk and I got other [ __ ] to work on I'm trying to work on me being a better person yeah I respect I respect that man but were ever part of any gang or like you sounding like the F never hey we don't the F in South Africa man only PS I'm just playing with you yeah I've been affiliated with the bloods in New York City um ENT Tre um yeah so crazy have you ever been to sa like have you ever been to Africa or um I've been to Africa where did you go uh gaban gille damn G to perform there um I went to perform there but uh got some great friends there they actually had ran the country at the time this is before the big yeah yeah overtaking and stuff like that but I had a ball out there I got to go to an island called Pony um that was a dope experience as they took me to the jungles I got to see some of the indigenous people um it was like a a real um life Awakening like and I got to see how also the rich people live out there also like I got to see both sides like that you know what I mean it was it was a great experience I out there for like a week um I haven't been back since but yeah it was dope you never been to South Africa never been to South Africa bro so the reason why I asked that is because like yo bro like American culture has infiltrated South Africa like you can't believe like you know we got people worshiping you guys you know Jim Jones rappers and everything you so we've got rappers who rap just like you and youd say they're like Bloods and Crips but they've never they've never left sa you know cuz that's how influential uh the culture is right but from you when you see or hear that like what do you guys think like do you think is like some [ __ ] like or like leave don't don't follow the gang life you know what I mean oh as far as that is concerned um there's two sides to that this what you do as a gang member that turns it into something that becomes a crime or whatever that end but the Brotherhood part of it is what the most of us joined up for when we coming up in the hood and need that Brotherhood lean on somebody is that type of camaraderie that pretty much stood for and there's a lot of other great attributes that comes with affiliation or you becoming a part of a gang um it gets twisted up because we all come up in these urban communities and our back is against the wall we don't have no opportunities um it's very dormant uh we on top of each other so naturally testosterone testosterone wins in a lot of these situations where these kids find s in bad situations and for that I would tell people to kind of stay away from this type of life um I don't want to oppose my will we all going to experience what we going to experience but I can't tell you the consequences to this type of Lifestyle could be very dear you heard ethal a lot of people don't get to make it where I made it and Escape that lifestyle that could have put me away or could have put me in the dirt I mean so here as a Living testament to tell you that these consequences are terrible the odds on you making it out of that life in a positive manner are very slim I mean but if you are in that life and you taking it as a Brotherhood and try to uplift your brothers I know there's a lot of people around you that are doing a lot of [ __ ] that that that that that's very crazy you know what I mean if you're a part of that and you got the positive minder then you try to uplift your brother and instill some positivity within them because it's very cold out here so I've always been curious bro like so when that when you you you start getting immersed you know or Affiliated in the gang life how does that affect the conversation at home with your parents like your mom your dad and just the domestic you know Dynamics I a't grow my parents I was a grown man since I was like 15 I made my own money since I was like 16 my grandmother left me in high school man I was raising my Sisters by myself in the projects I hustle every I ever got in my life that's why music saved my life I was so grateful to be able to be next to cam and him getting a deal at such a very young age to be able to still be making money off that [ __ ] right now you were U anr for Warner uh music group yeah I was the director of anr for Warner Music Group um years ago uh shouts to Kevin L shouts to Leo Cohen for giving me the opportunity um great opportunity uh I excelled at it extremely very young with a lot of power but didn't understand what I had at hand um didn't have too many people in my corner that were telling me the things that I should have been doing with that type of position as opposed to some type of weird way be hating you know I mean so that's what happened but as you get older you learn you learn and you move on who did you discover while you were in that position uh I would tell you a story I I know I've helped try s uh they come to tra songs that you know today he's always in he's always in we know why no n but he was a young kid at the time and uh they were actually going to cut him from the label we had a big uh um it's like uh one of them uh some events they be doing not the talent shows the uh well was something like that all the artists had to come perform and then they pretty much didn't know that they was on a Cho and block at the time when I was an executive and and he was one of the artists that they were going to cut and I remember Kevin L specifically ask me yo what we should do with him I'm about to cut him I don't know what to do with him and when I heard him uh singing and I saw him perform I was like this is this is one artist you should keep and did that and now we all tra songs on so many dope ass records is it true you could have signed Drake yeah I had a chance to sign uh I had a chance to do business with Drake um through Allan grum blat um when I was doing business at cotch um it was a different era I didn't understand what Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he show me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah understand everybody going at my guy I understand the hate man the hate is so phenomenal it's just how this game go man this game is so tricky man these [ __ ] just like females in this game we ain't going to get into that man there's a lot of uh but wait wait wait so so with Drake like are you are you seeing him perform like try songs or like you just heard of the guy just a conversation Allan called me about signing a kid let me hear some of his music um and I was like the kid know how to rap but I don't know what to do with him his image is crazy and him couple years later heard him on a Wheezy mixtape going crazy I was like wow this kid is about to go wham inside of this business and he sure did and you're know trying to call Weezy like yo man I gotta get that kid or something n he was already signed a young money and jcole did you miss on jcole as well I could have signed J Cole bro jcole was in the studio with me every day and at that point jcole I he's he remind me of a knockoff Drake and not to say it like that but that's who he sounded like he came to my studio every day rapping to these Drake beats rapping like Drake Cadence like Drake he could rap his ass off yeah you heard yeah but it was already a drake out there he had the Caesar it was different like two lightskinn [ __ ] might not K when raing the same but you never know what you got in front of you man you dig and those are lessons I I've took with me to moving forward when I see artists and and I hate artists I always give them more than just hearing just just I got to I got to I gotta try to capture the whole picture I make sure I just don't you mean so I don't miss nothing else because I've missed a few people and I've helped a few people um gain a lot of success in in my time in this industry whether it been by me having a meeting with them or me having influence on them or you know I mean so you know and there's never like any animosity like Jake Cole or Drake never came up to be like yo you could have signed me look at me now bro I mean me and Drake is cool as [ __ ] um I see J Cole I don't think he I mean I don't think that's no he some [ __ ] he might want to keep to himself not to be like that sh the co he not that type of artist he's not a you I mean yeah you did I look I look at as we can see I want to mention an artist who like I'm really fond of like I think this guy's [ __ ] amazing musically talented everything that he touched like turned to Gold who's that uh kid k bro K Cy yeah yeah did you help him with his career yeah I birth K Cy wow J me how so bro bir them nobody would have know who K Cy was at all if I a jump on this remix record but it wasn't even remix he wasn't even a nobody like I tell a story all the time I had a inter used to work for me said he got some dudes that do videos they would like to do a video for me told them come let me see they work they show me their videos the first video they showed me was of the kid Cy record he's on the top of a roof some simple video the record sound more wavy than the opportunity for them to do a video I'm like well if you'll get me the beat to this record I Remix this record and then y'all can shoot the video to that record wow and that's what they did and then um the radio station ripped the record off of YouTube and start playing it at Hot 97 and K Cy was born bro why do you think especially about kid Cy cuz from him when I listen to music right it wasn't really no no other kid Cy record besides the one that I was on yeah man he's not in they don't play his records where I be at at all not to be funny wow bro and we listen to him like all that day and night you know remember only record I know yeah it's the only record I know unless it's like a pop record that everybody know and I and I'm even not paying attention to it but he don't his records don't get played nowhere that i' be at not like that unless I go into a different farm and that's the type of music they playing in one of these funny clubs that play fist pump music and pop music he's not into like you dig like they don't play his music in the clubs I'll be at maybe in Vegas and [ __ ] like that but that's not like they not pumping this [ __ ] in live they not pumping this [ __ ] in Atlanta they not pumping this [ __ ] down the Stafford room or you know what I mean like they I'm not saying nothing like that but I don't hear it in the strip clubs I don't hear like you know what I mean so but he's a very successful person with some of the greats like Kanye to put him in a position to win and [ __ ] like that and I think he's way more better as an actor than he is a musician and that's just my POS that's just my opinion he did I seen him in the movie uh about the race car [ __ ] where he was F the playe like he got a lot of Charisma and [ __ ] like that on on camera for what I could see and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean bro I mean for you as Jim Jones to to see these kids you're introduced to them by an intern and then to hop onto that song it's something selfless you know to just give these unknown kids an opportunity of sharing a song with you where do you think that selflessness comes from how was that unknown kid I'm still an unknown kid anytime I get an opportunity that's an opportunity I should be able to give to somebody else bro the fact that you could even come to our podcast shout out man yeah man you don't even know us exactly what you're saying yeah know us what's his name I don't it's fine you know remember those kids who who did the video for him anyway you know remember I remember like that kids that got the biggest African podcast I'm definitely going to know like them is my guys right family right there appreciate I really mean that that sincerely and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean I I bump in too many people in my life and been across too many people in my journey to actually remember everybody's name but the face and the cause and I mean BR I want to understand right the first time you came up with the concept For Love and Hip Hop where were you what was happening that um that was something like uh me and Christy she had opportunity to do uh her own reality show um and actually fell through and that kind of she was kind of she wanted to do that I can see she was eager about doing that when it fell through kind you know I mean [ __ ] with her mood and [ __ ] like that so so so so so the initial concept what was it was just Chrissy just showing like what's life the initial concept was about she had her own thing going on about a group of women that was supposed to do a reality show had nothing to do with me yeah that [ __ ] fell through she lost that opportunity to end up not going people have been begging me to do reality TV for past couple years at the time and I and you reality TV gold man I refused to do it yeah and then when that happened I was like all right I got I'll do this for you and we'll make it about you and females that have to that are involved with artist such as myself and show what the relationship side is when you're dealing with a high-profile artist and you know what I mean how so that's how that started bro and that thing became a monster super super monster like it's still big till this day bro 100% so do you have like uh ownership in that we we were link a all that you know at that time when maybe the second season we just in a position where we refuse to compromise our dignity for anyone or any dollar and sometimes it be like that you know what I mean um but ain't no stress off my back T my hat to him you no but but but we got to talk about that because you see like this podcast um it's blackowned right it's just me and a couple of other people that are involved in the podcast right and we're always striving for ownership so a lot of um Brands and investors have come to try to buy the podcast and we say know cuz like we believe in ownership and telling the story the way we want to tell it right so what went wrong in that because as a hustler I believe like that's your also end goal MH um it wasn't something that I was just a lot of different layers and [ __ ] like that and I was too worried about doing other things and we had the opportunity to gain all ownership 50% of the whole TV show and all that but it still wasn't worth GE bro that's insane you just let go like that yeah bro it's your brain child bro there is no Love and& Hip Hop without you bro I still got a brain you heard yeah those are for people that don't have a brain that lack creativity people that steal things from you lack what you don't have remember that yeah whether it's money whether it's creativity whatever it is they lack what you don't have ultimately they steal from you you heard I mean we didn't even know C beef if it wasn't for Love and& Hip Hop right yeah yeah yeah definitely yeah bro you gave birth to so many many people man like VI their careers that's the god in me that's why I'm always going to be good yeah she man so any other shows that you're working on like in the pipeline that you want to do I was telling you I working on um a late night show a late night um a late night variety show live in studio audience hopefully we'll be filming in about 40 to 60 days um beautiful concept I do I do believe people going enjoy the show um like I was saying I can't do um a podcast is too personal for me and [ __ ] like that and me watching these podcasts um dealing with these artists me myself don't have the temperament for it you know what I mean um I [ __ ] I T my hat to y'all to have to deal with artists such as myself cuz you never know what type of mood they going to come in you know what I me some of these artists have a air to them where they feel like they better than most and they would never sit and have tea with the with the maintenance guy you heard me myself me going to maintenance guy going to smoke blunts before I get on stage [Music] I live my life and and and currently uh before we let you go man what do you think about the state of hip-hop cuz like statistically numbers wise it's not looking good man e beats has played all over New York now there's now the pianos this is this is what they want you to do this is how to get us to go against each other it's all under the same culture umbrella it's afro music ref I'm a piano I'm a piano explain that what do you mean by that bro yeah R&B what do you mean by that ultimately it's all from under the same origin and creativity of the same person from the same colors is all our thing n but let's be honest Jimmy hip-hop hasn't involved bro when I was listening to Eminem what do you want mean what do you mean hip-hop hasn't evolved you guys are still rapping about the same stuff it don't you you missing the point of what hip-hop is yeah hip-hop has evolved to a point that you can be the music genres that you're told them about can be noticed you think that if there was a hip hop that I'm a piano would be noticed or afro Beach would be noticed think about that and not to take nothing away from y because you always have culture and yes that music might be big within the continent of Africa yeah right but to cross over to American Fame and commercialism you don't think that the hip-hop culture played a big part in that that's that that's a different argument now you want to have a different argument I'm telling you the semantics of where we going with this you dig like you talking about uh the the hip hop music is damn percentage that's how they want us to think when it's really not cuz we all uplifting each other you heard you think that the country music that's going on in the black people winning is not because of the hip-hop culture no no no I think no one is disputing that however so then when you say hip-hop numbers are down and damn for who no I'm talking about I know what you're talking about but damn for who tell me who it's down for because I'm still making the money I make yeah I do believe there's still a lot of artist that's making a shitload of money that they make I don't think it went down for them yeah you know what I mean but I understand what you're talking about they say the numbers and then rock and roll genre might be up like I don't really you heard like that's I'm into this business you heard and it's always up for us you heard cuz this is a business we make money out of nothing it's never a downside to this okay and and that's why I'm saying I think we're having two different conversations here cuz the conversation I'm having is I'm having I'm having right is that in as much as he's saying yeah the numbers are down because they orchestrated and whatever I get that right but also that's why I asked do you think Hip-hop has evolved cuz I grew up on hip-hop right and the same things um quote unquote you guys were rapping about in the '90s how can hipop how can hip hop evolved in the same thing that Africa been Africa been going on since the '90s aren't y going still going through the same thing we are huh we are so how could the music evolve when the music ref the time ah okay get you real stories what you want us to rap about [ __ ] that that we don't have ah we talk about [ __ ] we dream about all the time that's the good The Good Life the colorin the Ros we talk about but the truth is how the music going to change when our position hasn't changed when we still going through the same [ __ ] we've been going through okay and y'all being from Africa should know that more than we know that yeah that's facts that's fact go about that own Cod yeah yeah yeah yeah you know are bro that's a valid fact but how do you feel man like you've come from an era where you guys when what you you said in your raps I mean evolved as far as dition as far as what we rap about cuz we still stuck in the same place but as a business it has evolved to one of big time yeah yeah biggest big time money making machines you can attach yourself to this made some of the richest individuals whether you're the rapper the lawyer the executive like that's true you know what I mean the supply chain but then I think that's why you know when you get the likes of a wz coming out and Kendrick Lamar they stand out like a sore thumb because like they are rapping about but that's what music is about to stand out for those who that want to look like everybody they don't get nowhere why you think Dip set was so successful sucessful yeah because we stood out on purpose we don't want to look like or H or sound like no one else m we want yall to above all see us when we walk in the building and hear us when we get on that [ __ ] mic you heard why would you guys the diplomats I never like where did that come from the diplomats the name the diplomats yeah we diplomats oh ah okay that sounded cool no we diplomats we are Harlem diplomats and we take it as that you heard we go to the Embassy when we land in countries you heard all right okay okay okay I I sort of get that bro so in the business and how you still making money right now like from music just like how is it royalties damn you asking a lot of questions bro no I want to know bro I'm so I've got so many questions I want to ask you bro I'll tell you this music is supposed to be used so you can make as much ancillary dollars as you can because the music ain't promised everybody 15 minutes of fame ranges from a small 15 minutes of fame to a run like we having within that minute the 15 minutes the fame you better do a lot of other things to secure your bag because music is not going to be thing you be able to get paid off forever unless you're the DRS and the J that's not even 1% that's you know what I mean so you think about that so you better have some hustle you better learn how to you better have some business sense you better put your credit in order you better do a few things to secure you if you are artist [ __ ] leverage powerful penda yeah man how do you feel man when these kids these days wrap up about you know trying to act tough and rap about stuff they never done like you guys red about stuff you lived I mean I do believe a lot of these kids are going through a lot of [ __ ] that we went through and then a lot of the kids are talking about [ __ ] that they see but most of the kids are all growing up in the same community that all of that [ __ ] is going on so who tells them they don't have the right to talk about [ __ ] that they're not doing when that's still [ __ ] that they're seeing oh sure Ah that's powerful but the problem I have a problem when they rapping like they did it but they just R from somebody else's Vantage Point understand that but most of these artists that you've seen in the game some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I pretty firm in his in in his music that I'm a believer that he did some of that [ __ ] he can talk about just me I don't know you possibilities are possibilities but some things just seem correct you know mean I can't tell you for sure cuz it is music you know what I mean but some things seem correct [ __ ] man bro you got to come out to man you got to you know we haven't had a proper uh hip-hop concert in sa like since 50 N since you are come on back to the city does concerts man ah those are for old people empd the bigest artist in South Africa right now Hip-Hop Hip-Hop uh there's a guy called nastyc but nesty came here he doesn't know know you f poopa who's that nah F poopa Nigerian West African artist massive he used to pop not now for real still massive bigger than like ber boyo still it's different type of music oh stadiums is 50 60,000 people like what is this following this gu what's his name f poop F poop I don't know him bro he's from Nigeria yeah yeah yeah yeah Nigerian Prett pretty big yeah humongous bro how big was was 50 Cent bro like during his Reign man like how big was 50 Cent [ __ ] retardedly big it wasn't nothing bigger than him was Drake before Drake was dring he was oh [ __ ] he did it like it was like 50 was on a run that he never even touched the club bro like [ __ ] never seen him in the club he only did Arenas I never knew too many artist that just did that you dig like the [ __ ] was super massive every [ __ ] Rec he came out with was was going platinum and I'm just telling you the facts you heard and I always got to speak factual no matter how I feel about a person the [ __ ] was on top Super on top it was no way to knock him off his d i remember Jay-Z dropped the diss track on you did you guys resolve that beef I think you were not happy with him as the president of De jam oh man um we never really had a beef um we had some feuds back and forth through the situations that were going on over other people um and me being who I am I had to hold my ground um but to know that he actually talked about me in multiple of his records mean that I was pretty big in his eyes you dig true true cuz I didn't hear him talk about too many people in his career and if he did talk you talk about you on the record that meant something you know what I mean and I was then so for me that I I I took that like what it was like you dig like yeah J doesn't respond to take the time out to say my name you heard if I'm if I'm not that big of a deal to you you would never ever a am I am I right talk about a person you heard true it's it's a form of respect and ackowledge 100% am I right in saying a lot of [ __ ] are scared of Jay-Z bro cuz we interviewed Dam Ian I don't I don't know I'm not a lot of [ __ ] you heard I'm a man so I couldn't I I couldn't tell you that you heard I ain't scared to nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that that that dentist yeah the dentist got me there you heard you can walk in you could walk we about to fight right now you a dentist walk in you got it you got it like you got it bow down you got it I don't want no smoke let me get out of here M fact word Jimmy before you go man uh what beefs did you have so you had something beef with Jay-Z right no man I just told you we had some feuds stemming from that's beef bro stemming from other things that going on um my problem like it was all part of Us coming up in the game and things were happening we were signing a Rockefeller cam was sign a Rockefeller actually then we got opportunity to Diplomat records um the split between uh Jay and Dame came um artist took sides some took the J side some took the the Dame side which side were you on we was on the Dame side OB Dash yeah Dame Dash that's do you think Dame Dash is misunderstood bro huh you think Dame Dash is misunderstood um too smart for his own good I get that yeah if you had the opportunity again you sometimes being the smartest person in the room could be held against you especially when you want everybody to know that you're the smartest person in the room yeah yeah yeah and I get given a second chance would you still side with Dam never you wouldn't never whoa I never signed a d at all that was no no no like sided with him took his side oh give a second chance I wouldn't have sided with none of them I would we would haveed our [ __ ] business but you learned that with age yeah you heard we had no business butting into that because it wasn't a street beef and this wasn't some [ __ ] that had to do with us ultimately we were holding our [ __ ] down and [ __ ] like that but business-wise if we would if we knew what we knew now we would let them get into that they self y'all can handle that because we got records to put out and music to make and we got our own record label to run you dig and this my hinder what we got going on by us taking sides and that's why I tell people now even when people seeing all the Diplomat [ __ ] like y bro don't don't get in to taking sides with me and my bro because you never know how that might end up and if it end up to a point where we do figure out our situation then I'm looking at you funny now me and you got forever you heard you dig and there are plenty of people that did that and plenty people that didn't and plenty people that showed the same amount of love that he showed to me that it showed to cam when we were going through our imaginary situations and [ __ ] like that cuz it's all imaginary when you know you can figure figure it out now it's a saying that like don't just be in people's business when especially when they've beef and take sides cuz and I I had to learn that a lot I had took me a long time to learn that because of how we come up in the Cod that they supposedly treat us in teach us in the street and [ __ ] like that but sometimes that's not the smallest thing that we can do and then uh push a t did you ever beef with him nah that was some [ __ ] that we was on record um he did some [ __ ] I did some [ __ ] you dig that was it I never followed that I didn't even know did you know there's a pusher T me I ain't got no just know I don't know I know you're from I know you're from Africa and [ __ ] like that but people don't play with me yeah for real and I don't I don't play with people this ain't no playground you heard this is the street it's two ways don't get caught up in a yellow line it's going to be hard to cross bro yeah you heard no I don't trust me I'm from Africa but I saw what happened at the airport so that [ __ ] escalated yeah [ __ ] that was self-defense man God yo bro it looked like that guy was just messing with you bro I wish that could have never happened cuz I was trying to avoid that by all cause but [ __ ] happened sometime man you dig and definitely not not going to allow anybody do anything to me at all bro when I saw that video right like I don't know I just met you today right but I saw when you lifted that guy from the escalator threw him down he literally just went on survival mode bro like it's like there was a button that you switched on and you just like I don't [ __ ] care but yeah yeah no I mean no that's a button that I choose not to push you heard yeah exactly like you can go there quickly I choose to show restraint for a lot of reasons in my life and sometimes it's hard to you dig but where I'm at in life right now I choose positivity or all the other things that come out my way because I know how it is to be negative I was once that negative person that was very aggressive and ready to do something to to you over the minimal alistic of things and [ __ ] like that so I'm blessed to be here to try to be able to show restraint and so so the guy so the guy at the airport you guys on the same plane yeah we on the same plane so you don't have a private jet no I don't have a private jet I'm not a rich man come on Jimmy you made so much money over the years but anyway so you're in the plane what's he what's this guy saying to you like um I don't know man just [ __ ] happens I know just the started from the plane just know that what you see happen on so it starts on the plane you restrain yourself you're like all right cool my dog say whatever you want to say yeah when he gets to the airport I mean the escalator that's when I think he starts hitting you or something right yeah something like that he tried to do something like that and that's what we see man but like I said this is not something that I want to glorify it's not you think he knows who you are um if if he didn't he know now no I'm I'm sorry see sorry cuz some people just provoke I believe he was he was trolling a little bit and things like that which is cool you I mean I'm if if you in New York not time 10 you do know who I am so you know I believe it was a bit of that but God bless man hopefully that they all right hopefully the old man um cool you dig like are you spiritual cuz you mentioned God a lot man yeah I'm very spiritual very spiritual very spiritual I've been my whole family is spiritual and what does that mean in an American sense cuz um us as African for me it means a lot of different things um I was told what the church was as a young age as they drag you to church every Sunday your grandmother your moms and your family and things like that and you really don't understand what that is from that young but as you get older and you go through certain things and you make it through certain things you understand that there is a God and everybody has a relationship with their God different and sometimes going to church doesn't mean that you love your God any less or he loves you any less you dig and you say spiritual I'm very spiritual I say my prayers as much as I can sometime two three four times in a day you dig man doesn't take away from what I do and who I am because I'm still in the line for everything else everybody is in but I know every day that I'm able to wake up and every day I'm able to make a dollar and every day I'm able to keep living the life that I am I should be thankful you heard cuz that's not just me that's a higher vibration that's definitely a God you dig and I'm well aware that I've escaped many things in life that Lord knows I should not be here but then again I should be here cuz he put here for a reason he gives his toughest battles to his strongest people what the Bible say you heard and I've made it through some very tough battles which are minimal to some of the people that I had next to me in their battles you know what I mean so it's like we all got to figure it out Jim Jones thank you so much man and thanks to God for bringing you here man definitely I appreciate for making time for us bro thank you man we appreciate you tired when you got you I appreciate the fact that you could even make it man got any last question yeah man bro you said you've gone through some tough battles and you mentioned how you lost your dad at like 26 but also that you you pretty much raised yourself from the age of 15 you know from that relationship or lack of it like has it affected how you father your children 100% this made me the best father I could be but me my relationship with my father was always a great one even though he wasn't there because every day he wasn't I love them even more I wasn't one of them kids that was bitter you dig I understand that everybody went through something and at that age what he was going through there was a lot of drug addiction and I knew that from a very young age I understood what drugs was and how they were tearing up my family I never held that against my father and I was just blessed able to get back with him before he passed away so he could see that his son was making something out of himself at that time I was already signed to her uh we think we just got the Rockefeller deal so it was a very big deal for me to be able to get back with my father to show him that me somebody that you should be proud of and I know him looking down right now got be like damn I did that so you know and that's how I feel but then in turn TR here my son I don't you know I mean like I just you know mean I pride myself on making sure that I I turned my son into somebody that was way better than I could ever be you oh man yeah that's my guy shout out to you man is your son still wearing Crocs to you br he's a Croc guy you heard yeah Crocs for Life bro Crocs for Life jumping out the beam with a fresh paer Crocs on I don't want to stand him Jimmy before you go your top five rappers all time my top five rappers of all you got to give us your top five bro yeah Tupac definitely Jay-Z Drake um Drake he not like us by default of course um rock cam no Eminem No No whoa not even big you from NY and not to take nothing away from him he's extremely nice it's retardedly nice when it comes to rap but I listen to artists that kind of you know I mean do something for the life that I live and kind of what I've been through and most of these artist or artist that I'm talking about people that you know what I mean like [ __ ] better stop hating on my boy Drake all of a sudden all this Drake land I get it I get it you ain't like us let's not do that let's not forget the 15 years he been spanking [ __ ] around this [ __ ] all all all over this [ __ ] all the alley he been giving most of these artists that are now seeming to be turning on them let's you know let's not some of them gave him their best hits let's not forget the big picture here and [ __ ] like but what the hip-hop culture and this game is built on competition so I yeah but what is he with it you heard you better put your best foot forward but what has Drake given back to the culture oh that you so love here we go um what is he giving back to the culture I seen him take a lot of people on tour and turn them even richer than they already was I I seen him give a lot of people hits that they would have never had if he wouldn't have got on a record things for the culture that wouldn't have happened in turn records that we would have never knew about him to record that the culture love and things like that I mean he's not from here Canada from the hood I don't believe he owes America too much but the monster that give back to where he's from maybe we should ask about what has he done in Canada giving back to his community as opposed to what he giving back to the culture of the United States when this is not where he's from and I think that's the Divide right there now if we talk about what he's done in Canada and if it's not up to par then maybe we can talk about oh you dig but that's I think that's for the people of Canada you dig like yeah cuz but it's the people of America in the hood who made him of course you heard about but that he didn't grw up in America he didn't grew up here you heard so if you was an artist from Africa yeah like boy yeah do you think bnab boy has responsibility what do Niger of United stes n I'm taking it back home bro super duper big yes but that's what people then will call a culture vulture cuz you come into a space you know do what the people of that space do benefit from them is is is you understand what we doing like it's bro it's not because he's not take so he's not taking benab boy is Nigerian it's a Nigerian culture that is now popular in America so Drake took an American culture and enriched himself but what he's saying is that he doesn't owe anything to America cuz he's not from yet right okay right yeah I mean [ __ ] he's got no obligation Fair argument he got no obligation Fair argument yeah like he lived if he lived like I don't I don't that's how I see it you heard like that's how I see it you dig but all these [ __ ] we talking about are filthy filthy filthy rich off the opinions of men you heard what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never but what I'm just trying to tell you is how this game is played yeah you heard yeah geez man the more we talk the more they get paid the loser still gets paid too if there is a loser I don't think there's a loser when they all getting Millions off of this [ __ ] I don't think I mean like and I understand end all be all in the whole circle of it but I'm I've been in this [ __ ] for so long I'm miss you can see the politics of really get you to understand of what's really going on and [ __ ] like that this [ __ ] don't pay me a dollar to talk about it yeah hey man how tight you with Joe Bon he calls us those African guys with numbers oh yeah yeah yeah Jo this my guy buts what's up man he cool yeah he's an instigator definely know how to get under people's skin yeah I've known Joan for so long [ __ ] like that um I'm proud of him put himself in his position a whole new Lane to make a shitload of money um where it stem from the culture this what I'm talking about all the ancillary things that you need to get going on if are a artist of some type of success you got to use that to get where you want look at Joe used his startom and rap no matter what it was to able to finesse a whole new Lane of podcasting that true he's pretty big in damn near one of the forefathers of it from our culture right y'all started before him or after him we started after him but now we have more numbers than him hey doesn't matter no numbers do matter I mean no J and get num I'm cool with that but you won't be never be the considered the forefather of this whole no no no no no no no you dig 100% yeah it's Jo Joan numbers is cool I'm cool with that you get paid and I know what's a race you might be number one you heard yeah yeah but you still never be the forefather always going to have that under him like I've created this Lane for your how I feel about Ling hip hop yeah of course I got that under my belt that's mine y can never say that was yours at all yeah okay how much money you made off of it and [ __ ] like that at the end of the day you it's mine you heard Still My still mine so we always ask anybody any guest that we get on the show in closing what do you want to be remembered as man when it's all said and done I want I want to be remembered I want I want them to know that I gave more than I took because I was able to take a lot in my time amen just like that sh hey man I wish you put me on love and& hip-hop bro they got the African love of Hip Hop they got Jamaican love of Hip Hop they got they got any type of Love of Hip Hop we need the South African love of Hip Hop thanks Jim man shout out thank you bro I appreciate you man thank you we appreciate podcast and chill we out of here man boom peace welcome to Black excellenc do not fear for if you do just sip on some Grand and if you still do ask ourselves what would M [Music] do when they ask you do not fear for if you do just say an TV this is the the medicine of censorship this is the pill which one is that one podcast and chill	Prett pretty big yeah humongous bro how big was was 50 Cent bro like during his Reign man like how big was 50 Cent [ __ ] retardedly big it wasn't nothing bigger than him was Drake before Drake was dring he was oh [ __ ] he did it like it was like 50 was on a run that he never even touched the club bro like [ __ ] never seen him in the club he only did Arenas I never knew too many artist that just did that you dig like the [ __ ] was super massive every [ __ ] Rec he came out with was was going platinum and I'm just telling you the facts you heard and I always got to speak factual no matter how I feel about a person the [ __ ] was on top Super on top it was no way to knock him off his d i remember Jay-Z dropped the diss track on you did you guys resolve that beef I think you were not happy with him as the president of De jam oh man um we never really had a beef um we had some feuds back and forth through the situations that were going on over other people um and me being who I am I had to hold my ground um but to know that he actually talked about me in multiple of his records mean that I was pretty big in his	8	6	4	Prett pretty big yeah humongous bro how big was was 50 Cent bro like during his Reign man like how big was 50 Cent [ __ ] retardedly big it wasn't nothing bigger than him was Drake before Drake was dring he was oh [ __ ] he did it like it was like 50 was on a run that he never even touched the club bro like [ __ ] never seen him in the club he only did Arenas I never knew too many artist that just did that you dig like the [ __ ] was super massive every [ __ ] Rec he came out with was was going platinum and I'm just telling you the facts you heard and I always got to speak factual no matter how I feel about a person the [ __ ] was on top Super on top it was no way to knock him off his	I remember Jay-Z dropped the diss track on you did you guys resolve that beef I think you were not happy with him as the president of De jam	8,5,6	0,2,3	8	5	6	0	2	3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr730VmL-lk	4,054	rr730VmL-lk	2024-06-27 00:00:00	like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano no well Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he showed me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah just understand everybody going there my guy I understand the hate exactly what you're saying yeah bro what's his name I don't it's fine you remember those some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I ain't scared of nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that the dentist yeah dentist got me there what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never [Music] [Music] yo Jimmy you do not look like you want to be here bro like someone forced you to be it's like you have to do that par they're the biggest podcast in Africa you have to be there I never look like I want to be nowhere man you got to part of me but congratulations to yall having the biggest podcast in Africa that that that's very big Africa being one of the biggest continents in the world a lot of people over there shut up man why you so tired bro crazy weekend I've been working all weekend shows different states traveling Planes Trains automobiles you know how I be a little bit too much partying yeah road kill it's tough but what's up how y'all feeling I'm good bro I literally saw um I saw your video uh yesterday for your new single the one you shot in Miami two turn temp yeah yeah how you feel about it bro that [ __ ] is lit man looks like our Vibe bro cuz we've been to Miami myself and and my partner but we never like experienced the Miami night life we were playing in Florida yeah we're DJing in Florida but two South Africans like the diaspora then West Palm Beach as well yeah DJ also yeah like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano what it's a genre it's called a piano no no cuz I'm a piano even you heard like you saw he did the whole Keys thing it has nothing to do with the piano that's where it started but has nothing to do with it these days when when I met charlot man he said the exact same thing he's like oh so you're a podcaster I'm like yeah and then you DJs I'm like no I play I'm a Pian like you're a Pianist man you one talented [ __ ] n it's a genre of music man what kind of genre is that like it's like slowed down house music with a lot of s that African influence that's the only way I can describe it so it's a it's a mix of a marriage house yeah a marriage of house music which originated here at Chicago and stuff and then we slowed it down created a sub genre called guo where guys were sort of rapping but very minimalist raps called guo then the kids were born like in the 2000s late '90s then created a whole meshup of those two genres and it's called Piano cuz a a lot of Americans think it's um afro beats it's not afro beats yeah a lot of the hence I avoided saying afro beats cuz AFR beats is from Nigeria and amap piano is far from afro beat afro beat borrows from am piano now where is amap piano originated from South Africa from the hoods from the Cassis yeah but when I when I was looking at your video bro uh the only thing in my mind was like bro what's a night like out with Jim Jones CU that [ __ ] look lit there [ __ ] everywhere bro um please please describe a night out in Miami with Jim so let's say we going to Miami right now I mean some nice are better than others but been doing it so long it's kind of like the the bare minimum for us to do in Miami just having fun but it still work at the same time like every every I'm I'm not just going out partying for no reason ni like that was we knew what we was kind of getting into we wanted to film a video so we knew we was going to ramp it up a bit take it to the to the highest form going crazy as we could but that actually happened to fall on a big weekend um and one of my dudes was celebrating so everything kind of happened for a reason but yeah Miami could take you for take you for a few a few trips man like okay so so so me and you we get in the car right I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm in Miami I hate you cuz you got a house there you stay there right yeah I got I got I got cribs there so I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm by the strip you know that Miami strip right yeah yeah yeah I mean see that's the thing about Miami when you come to visit Miami that's where people are know at like the strip and things like that I guess stand by Collins and ocean driveing all that people that live there don't really do the strip like that like you just you dig people congregate usually at night time and all the spots that usually go on down there um okay so we got security obviously you got to roll around with security right um yeah I mean that' be the safest thing for me to do so we get out the cut with security when you get to the bouncers are they letting us in cuz it's Jim Jones or are they checking our IDs cuz they've been checking our IDs just to buy beer here bro Che ID everywhere yeah everywhere yeah no I I don't think I produced my ID in since I was a teenager at clubs but yeah you won't need your ID when you with me so we walking in right yeah we going to get in oh do we have a section do we they going to give us a section VIP yeah they going to give us a section we going to get some bottles and let the night ensue got this thing called Power Hour you go to the club maybe like 2:45 to 3:45 in and out no sweat so what's the what's the purpose of that exercise the Power Hour yeah like why would you be in the cloud for an hour why would I be in a club for 4 hours it's Fu I mean I've been part I've been partying since I've been 14 I've been making money to party since I've been 18 I'm kind of burnt out so at this point I try to wait till the club is at the most popping or lest moment which is usually that hour right there and I get to enjoy everything that happened tonight and leave out of there and not be all burnt out what what does your wife say bro cuz you're married man you're surrounded by all these girls like you know I mean I'm going to worry about the women yeah is minimal to the money worry about the money more than anything so so a woman doesn't like give you grief when you come home I yeah you get you get grief all the time if you in a relationship no matter what you do if you had a job on Wall Street you get home you're going to get grief no around it you heard yeah there's women everywhere unless you work in the LGBT Club then you know I mean even there you still going to go home and get like it's no way around it you're going to get you know I mean like yeah so you've never had like been home and you had to explain like yo no man I was just doing music video it's just work like I don't know that good you going to explain yourself in every relationship and things like that I got a good woman at home who understands a job I have and things like that so for the most part but for the most part I'm a very responsible respectable person when when I'm in the streets and when I do have to interact with females and things like that yeah anyway H ladies and gentlemen welcome to another special edition of podcasting chill so CU yeah I am here we're chilling with the [ __ ] Legend Kings of Harlem please make some noise for Jim Jones Jim I gotta say bro I gotta say bro I'm going to be honest with you when I find that your name was GMO geloo gelo I'm like I'm like Jim Jones losing some G points here man what the [ __ ] is that I'm Puerto Rican and a rubian my pops is Puerto Rican the word gelo means William in English is a Spanish Spanish name cuz you know what I was thinking I was thinking that guy who does the show late night you know the short guy who does like the interviews with um this late night comedian man what are the late night shows oh man not uh bad with these oh gosh the late night guy bro uhri or something not Corin O'Brien no not Trevor Noah the other American guy man like uh old new no he's like jimm Kimel Jimmy Kimel jimy he's got that he's got that short guy his name is julo oh I don't I don't I don't got got me messed up I don't even really watch TV like that bro okay I'll be out chasing the money I ain't even got time to do that and if and if I do got some time I'm trying to get a little bit of rest or I'm thinking about money [ __ ] is crucial out here right now you better get to your dollar a lot of [ __ ] about to happen and if you ain't got no coins boy you going to be [ __ ] up you ever been to uh Puerto Rico yeah I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times yeah but business not for the Heritage part of it so like you don't know where like your your your parents were at Familiar of the place where my father's from but I never really got to do the whole go to give with my family understand the roots understand you know I mean like I didn't get to get to that part of it but I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times you find like that's important like to know you it's definitely important I had this um I did an interview not too long ago about um how important the roots are and get to know where my family from know I mean so we'll start to do that pretty soon so so so your dad you know you know your dad right yeah he's passed away oh okay God bless rest in peace what happened to him he passed away yeah like was it um medical thing or yeah natural causes oh damn like when you young or um maybe when I was uh 23 24 oh damn bro SED to hear that man maybe 26 right before my son passed right before my God bless right before my son Bor bro but you like 47 right now I look good for 47y old man no homo you know what I mean thank you very much like what was what's keeping you looking so good is it the yoga yeah a lot of yoga a lot of Pilates I stay in shape um I'm very uh very big on Fitness um work out like five six times a week um it's one of the best ways to stay young and have better chances of living a long life is that why you do it or maybe there's other purpose like you know a lot of people are in gym for their mental health I mean it's very it's very it's very therapeutic I will say that but my main goal is to look good of course but to give me better chances of living forever bro so how you got into rap um I don't know correct me if I'm wrong right but you used to skip church and go to the train station to to rap like no I never skipped Church to go on the train station and rap I skipped Church to go to the train station and go play video games and run the streets and do everything a bad little kid did from the streets of hollow when we was like S8 and n and things like that I don't know if you know about anything about the subway system in New York but that's the pathway system that get you to all five burrows and we definitely was on the subway which maybe we shouldn't have been but we was a little uh loose um for me rapping actually rapping didn't start later on in life to actually uh C and um they I got a deal and things like that and that was the first time me myself really thought about actually raing cuz I'll be honest with you like um dipet I don't really know much about dipet however I know about you guys individually like Cameron old boy like one of my favorite songs uh jul sna had hear that that was Cameron and Jules and jwes he both was on he both old boy and heon yeah why don't you jump on those tracks man those tracks are massive they was already done I was there for the making of both of them incredible tracks yeah and then how did dipit start start like how did you guys start the whole movement um organically kiss him Harem gr up together um talented kids Cam and Mason BL sh was they already was doing music um Everybody gradu graduated high school I didn't get to go to college they went to college they got kicked out they got kicked out they come moved in with me from that that was a uh foundation for them to D into the music you've been in the game for like 20 30 odd years right been in the game for since 1997 how would you describe the different eras of like um hip-hop right especially now cuz um obviously we all know about the Kendrick Lamar song they're not like us but I didn't know how big it was until I landed in in in America and it's like it's like a movement the video yeah it's like huge it's massive bro yeah it's a big record Kendrick did that shout out to Kendrick shout out to my boy Drake but what do you think about like the evolution of hip-hop in all the different areas you've been a part of what do you mean what do I think about it it's a great thing to be a part of something that um you could only dream of everybody doesn't get a chance to be in this game um I've been fortunate enough to be here for so many genres and errors and seen so many people come and go I've watched the smallest artist to the biggest artist who you thow will be here forever and going um I got stories for days I can tell you about um how I feel about it I feel great I feel blessed you know what I mean I feel lucky this [ __ ] don't it's not promised and for me to still be here is definitely a blessing so in the 90s what was the vibe like man like like what in the 90s as far as what in hip-hop yeah it was it was different um 90s was a great era um one of my favorite errors um that was the era we first first came outside um started to get out deal uh very aggressive era uh no social media um cell phones were just being born um everything that you seen you was something that you could grab on to um artists had to go to the towns we couldn't just get on your phone and music you had to go get you couldn't just have access to it so it was a it was it it was a hunt um you had to touch the Tails kiss babies do radio everything like it was just a different ER but who was around like during that time when you who was around like Tupac was did you like meet Tupac Tupac I didn't get to meet Tupac um Tupac passed away what 95 was that yeah right in big in '97 um no I got to see Tupac do a few times in Harlem um that was dope but um not Tupac passed away before we got to get in the record game but I've seen a lot of a lot of artists in my time from a young age to old age we were partying in clubs as teenagers before we even got a record deal and things like that like we were in clubs since high school and [ __ ] like that so any interactions with Big L he was from Harlem right yeah shouts to Big Al Big Al was definitely from Harlem um 139th NFL Big L um I was one of the Cam's uh close friends um actually put cam on a dope record that started to give uh Cam and bloodshed and and her mcgree her was already popping too but guy gave them some notice when it came to R so when you come out like who's who's popping at that time is it git is it mop D it's way before G when we came out I was like Eminem just dropped oh [ __ ] this is Slim Shady not M like Slim Shady I I remember that that was like cam had dropped and Eminem had dropped DMX had dropped Nori had dropped um Big Pun had dropped lud Chris Luda had just started coming out um Nelly Nelly down down baby yeah shouts to coola love um yeah that type of error shouts to shouts to Fat Joe shouts to Buster they was already in it uh Nas was already in it Jay start going crazy that's when he just started taking over with the 1 million 2 million 3 million 4 um yeah very competitive very edgy um lot of the big dogs um had real roots in the streets um especially in the streets of New York so that put that put a real Mystique on everything when it came to the music um all the events with topnotch um it just was a different feel man it was a heavy heavy dope boy era um this was before the drug dealers wanted to be Rappers that's when the rappers wanted to be drug dealers you know what I mean and and that Arrow was was a very dope high impact trenel and Russian it was a was a great error bro I saw an interview you did correct me if I'm wrong I might be paraphrasing but you mentioned a place called the tunnel or something where everybody would be and you guys were [ __ ] [ __ ] in the bathrooms please please describe that manest cuz a place like that couldn't exist right now bro with all this woke [ __ ] I mean yeah and the cancel cult I would say it was probably the greatest Club The Hip hopers have seen and it was during the 90s era it was the Golden Era um in New York they got you had stories about like Studio 54 in that era when everybody used all the biggest of big used to go to Studio 54 well the tunnel was what Studio 54 was to that era to our era and it didn't make so many people and nationalities and genres and just everybody was like a big pumbo all for the sake of the culture you had some of the flyest models to some of the biggest drug dealers biggest gang bangers I mean every former elicit street life you could think of was in the spot along with the biggest artists and rappers and actors and models that you could find into all athletes um it would definitely like that um and was this like per invite or just like anybody could Rock up there nah you couldn't just rock up there for this is '90s entry was like $100 first of all $100 for a club that was the first time we ever heard of it and that was a lot of money back then especially we probably started in '94 going there teenager so $100 was sto a lot of money in New York at the time sneakers wasn't even costing $100 um to get in the club you definitely had to be connected to know somebody or you had to wait on a long line that usually was a block long um they had like an Express line you could pay $100 to get on Express line that'll get you to the door quicker and then you pay your entry fee um streets was blocked off you was a big dog you was able to bring your cars down there I was able to bring like four five of them if I wanted to um yeah the club was just it was different man pull up to the door security they taking people's shoes off they searching your jacket twisting people inside out like they about to go on the Rikers Island I got to I gave security High files I never took my shoes off and not since high school I when we used go in high school we used to get our shoes taken off and things like that make you feel like you going to the cental bookings and [ __ ] like that so what gave you that clout that allowed you to bring four cars in when nobody or you had to be a big dog to bring four cars in when you could just give them a high five instead of removing your shoes and you're young by then like what gives you that CL I was a big dog since a small pup bro J yeah man what gave you those you know credentials at such a young age to suppos all these people cuz Dr Tre was there yeah you putting in four cars not removing shoes I was a good Lord Biden citizen everybody love Jim Jones even even the girls like would you just rock up they say let's go to the bathroom that's it yeah now that well yeah there was a lot of that going on they had a uh the layout was different first of all the club was a block long a whole city block um wow there was like three other four other clubs within the club or spots that look like clubs um the main floor was humongously big the DJ was like a a lifeguard Tower in the middle of the club um you go upstairs they had a VR big V PE upstairs and then go through a door it open up to the bathroom the bathroom was like a unisex Club [ __ ] had a big ass bar in the middle of the bathroom uh bunch of stalls lined up um that [ __ ] was like a hotel inside Lions cocaine everything yeah they was going down a lot of sex was going down there a lot of a lot of drugs was going down in there um yeah the tunnel was definitely uh a landmark to New York City when it comes to the clubs I I definitely um I always think about that club um it did a lot for me in my life um it gave me a lot of imagination when it came to to the culture and the things I was seeing from a young age as to where I want to be and the direction I want to go in yeah we was going there since high school so when you seeing people like Mike Tyson and all these people coming in big cheer on and just having their way as a kid go out got to go to school the next morning you you in school thinking about that [ __ ] like w man this school [ __ ] [ __ ] this school [ __ ] I need some money and I need to go to the tunnel that's all I want to [ __ ] do that's wild man now can you imagine because we in sa right we're looking at all the videos that you guys are pulling out there like we're looking at this lifestyle and then you F Track to 2024 right M and the P didy thing breaks out right I mean i' rather not even to get into that yeah just don't I rather the do I don't you know I mean like it's not it's not my business oh I mean like this you heard God bless it's too much n yeah and it's not me to have an opinion on certain things cuz I ain't perfect I've been through my own [ __ ] in life and I see a lot of people that have even this doing too much just know that I ain't perfect so I choose not to talk on certain [ __ ] that you know what I mean a lot of other people people been talking about I let them keep doing the talk and I got other [ __ ] to work on I'm trying to work on me being a better person yeah I respect I respect that man but were ever part of any gang or like you sounding like the F never hey we don't the F in South Africa man only PS I'm just playing with you yeah I've been affiliated with the bloods in New York City um ENT Tre um yeah so crazy have you ever been to sa like have you ever been to Africa or um I've been to Africa where did you go uh gaban gille damn G to perform there um I went to perform there but uh got some great friends there they actually had ran the country at the time this is before the big yeah yeah overtaking and stuff like that but I had a ball out there I got to go to an island called Pony um that was a dope experience as they took me to the jungles I got to see some of the indigenous people um it was like a a real um life Awakening like and I got to see how also the rich people live out there also like I got to see both sides like that you know what I mean it was it was a great experience I out there for like a week um I haven't been back since but yeah it was dope you never been to South Africa never been to South Africa bro so the reason why I asked that is because like yo bro like American culture has infiltrated South Africa like you can't believe like you know we got people worshiping you guys you know Jim Jones rappers and everything you so we've got rappers who rap just like you and youd say they're like Bloods and Crips but they've never they've never left sa you know cuz that's how influential uh the culture is right but from you when you see or hear that like what do you guys think like do you think is like some [ __ ] like or like leave don't don't follow the gang life you know what I mean oh as far as that is concerned um there's two sides to that this what you do as a gang member that turns it into something that becomes a crime or whatever that end but the Brotherhood part of it is what the most of us joined up for when we coming up in the hood and need that Brotherhood lean on somebody is that type of camaraderie that pretty much stood for and there's a lot of other great attributes that comes with affiliation or you becoming a part of a gang um it gets twisted up because we all come up in these urban communities and our back is against the wall we don't have no opportunities um it's very dormant uh we on top of each other so naturally testosterone testosterone wins in a lot of these situations where these kids find s in bad situations and for that I would tell people to kind of stay away from this type of life um I don't want to oppose my will we all going to experience what we going to experience but I can't tell you the consequences to this type of Lifestyle could be very dear you heard ethal a lot of people don't get to make it where I made it and Escape that lifestyle that could have put me away or could have put me in the dirt I mean so here as a Living testament to tell you that these consequences are terrible the odds on you making it out of that life in a positive manner are very slim I mean but if you are in that life and you taking it as a Brotherhood and try to uplift your brothers I know there's a lot of people around you that are doing a lot of [ __ ] that that that that that's very crazy you know what I mean if you're a part of that and you got the positive minder then you try to uplift your brother and instill some positivity within them because it's very cold out here so I've always been curious bro like so when that when you you you start getting immersed you know or Affiliated in the gang life how does that affect the conversation at home with your parents like your mom your dad and just the domestic you know Dynamics I a't grow my parents I was a grown man since I was like 15 I made my own money since I was like 16 my grandmother left me in high school man I was raising my Sisters by myself in the projects I hustle every I ever got in my life that's why music saved my life I was so grateful to be able to be next to cam and him getting a deal at such a very young age to be able to still be making money off that [ __ ] right now you were U anr for Warner uh music group yeah I was the director of anr for Warner Music Group um years ago uh shouts to Kevin L shouts to Leo Cohen for giving me the opportunity um great opportunity uh I excelled at it extremely very young with a lot of power but didn't understand what I had at hand um didn't have too many people in my corner that were telling me the things that I should have been doing with that type of position as opposed to some type of weird way be hating you know I mean so that's what happened but as you get older you learn you learn and you move on who did you discover while you were in that position uh I would tell you a story I I know I've helped try s uh they come to tra songs that you know today he's always in he's always in we know why no n but he was a young kid at the time and uh they were actually going to cut him from the label we had a big uh um it's like uh one of them uh some events they be doing not the talent shows the uh well was something like that all the artists had to come perform and then they pretty much didn't know that they was on a Cho and block at the time when I was an executive and and he was one of the artists that they were going to cut and I remember Kevin L specifically ask me yo what we should do with him I'm about to cut him I don't know what to do with him and when I heard him uh singing and I saw him perform I was like this is this is one artist you should keep and did that and now we all tra songs on so many dope ass records is it true you could have signed Drake yeah I had a chance to sign uh I had a chance to do business with Drake um through Allan grum blat um when I was doing business at cotch um it was a different era I didn't understand what Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he show me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah understand everybody going at my guy I understand the hate man the hate is so phenomenal it's just how this game go man this game is so tricky man these [ __ ] just like females in this game we ain't going to get into that man there's a lot of uh but wait wait wait so so with Drake like are you are you seeing him perform like try songs or like you just heard of the guy just a conversation Allan called me about signing a kid let me hear some of his music um and I was like the kid know how to rap but I don't know what to do with him his image is crazy and him couple years later heard him on a Wheezy mixtape going crazy I was like wow this kid is about to go wham inside of this business and he sure did and you're know trying to call Weezy like yo man I gotta get that kid or something n he was already signed a young money and jcole did you miss on jcole as well I could have signed J Cole bro jcole was in the studio with me every day and at that point jcole I he's he remind me of a knockoff Drake and not to say it like that but that's who he sounded like he came to my studio every day rapping to these Drake beats rapping like Drake Cadence like Drake he could rap his ass off yeah you heard yeah but it was already a drake out there he had the Caesar it was different like two lightskinn [ __ ] might not K when raing the same but you never know what you got in front of you man you dig and those are lessons I I've took with me to moving forward when I see artists and and I hate artists I always give them more than just hearing just just I got to I got to I gotta try to capture the whole picture I make sure I just don't you mean so I don't miss nothing else because I've missed a few people and I've helped a few people um gain a lot of success in in my time in this industry whether it been by me having a meeting with them or me having influence on them or you know I mean so you know and there's never like any animosity like Jake Cole or Drake never came up to be like yo you could have signed me look at me now bro I mean me and Drake is cool as [ __ ] um I see J Cole I don't think he I mean I don't think that's no he some [ __ ] he might want to keep to himself not to be like that sh the co he not that type of artist he's not a you I mean yeah you did I look I look at as we can see I want to mention an artist who like I'm really fond of like I think this guy's [ __ ] amazing musically talented everything that he touched like turned to Gold who's that uh kid k bro K Cy yeah yeah did you help him with his career yeah I birth K Cy wow J me how so bro bir them nobody would have know who K Cy was at all if I a jump on this remix record but it wasn't even remix he wasn't even a nobody like I tell a story all the time I had a inter used to work for me said he got some dudes that do videos they would like to do a video for me told them come let me see they work they show me their videos the first video they showed me was of the kid Cy record he's on the top of a roof some simple video the record sound more wavy than the opportunity for them to do a video I'm like well if you'll get me the beat to this record I Remix this record and then y'all can shoot the video to that record wow and that's what they did and then um the radio station ripped the record off of YouTube and start playing it at Hot 97 and K Cy was born bro why do you think especially about kid Cy cuz from him when I listen to music right it wasn't really no no other kid Cy record besides the one that I was on yeah man he's not in they don't play his records where I be at at all not to be funny wow bro and we listen to him like all that day and night you know remember only record I know yeah it's the only record I know unless it's like a pop record that everybody know and I and I'm even not paying attention to it but he don't his records don't get played nowhere that i' be at not like that unless I go into a different farm and that's the type of music they playing in one of these funny clubs that play fist pump music and pop music he's not into like you dig like they don't play his music in the clubs I'll be at maybe in Vegas and [ __ ] like that but that's not like they not pumping this [ __ ] in live they not pumping this [ __ ] in Atlanta they not pumping this [ __ ] down the Stafford room or you know what I mean like they I'm not saying nothing like that but I don't hear it in the strip clubs I don't hear like you know what I mean so but he's a very successful person with some of the greats like Kanye to put him in a position to win and [ __ ] like that and I think he's way more better as an actor than he is a musician and that's just my POS that's just my opinion he did I seen him in the movie uh about the race car [ __ ] where he was F the playe like he got a lot of Charisma and [ __ ] like that on on camera for what I could see and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean bro I mean for you as Jim Jones to to see these kids you're introduced to them by an intern and then to hop onto that song it's something selfless you know to just give these unknown kids an opportunity of sharing a song with you where do you think that selflessness comes from how was that unknown kid I'm still an unknown kid anytime I get an opportunity that's an opportunity I should be able to give to somebody else bro the fact that you could even come to our podcast shout out man yeah man you don't even know us exactly what you're saying yeah know us what's his name I don't it's fine you know remember those kids who who did the video for him anyway you know remember I remember like that kids that got the biggest African podcast I'm definitely going to know like them is my guys right family right there appreciate I really mean that that sincerely and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean I I bump in too many people in my life and been across too many people in my journey to actually remember everybody's name but the face and the cause and I mean BR I want to understand right the first time you came up with the concept For Love and Hip Hop where were you what was happening that um that was something like uh me and Christy she had opportunity to do uh her own reality show um and actually fell through and that kind of she was kind of she wanted to do that I can see she was eager about doing that when it fell through kind you know I mean [ __ ] with her mood and [ __ ] like that so so so so so the initial concept what was it was just Chrissy just showing like what's life the initial concept was about she had her own thing going on about a group of women that was supposed to do a reality show had nothing to do with me yeah that [ __ ] fell through she lost that opportunity to end up not going people have been begging me to do reality TV for past couple years at the time and I and you reality TV gold man I refused to do it yeah and then when that happened I was like all right I got I'll do this for you and we'll make it about you and females that have to that are involved with artist such as myself and show what the relationship side is when you're dealing with a high-profile artist and you know what I mean how so that's how that started bro and that thing became a monster super super monster like it's still big till this day bro 100% so do you have like uh ownership in that we we were link a all that you know at that time when maybe the second season we just in a position where we refuse to compromise our dignity for anyone or any dollar and sometimes it be like that you know what I mean um but ain't no stress off my back T my hat to him you no but but but we got to talk about that because you see like this podcast um it's blackowned right it's just me and a couple of other people that are involved in the podcast right and we're always striving for ownership so a lot of um Brands and investors have come to try to buy the podcast and we say know cuz like we believe in ownership and telling the story the way we want to tell it right so what went wrong in that because as a hustler I believe like that's your also end goal MH um it wasn't something that I was just a lot of different layers and [ __ ] like that and I was too worried about doing other things and we had the opportunity to gain all ownership 50% of the whole TV show and all that but it still wasn't worth GE bro that's insane you just let go like that yeah bro it's your brain child bro there is no Love and& Hip Hop without you bro I still got a brain you heard yeah those are for people that don't have a brain that lack creativity people that steal things from you lack what you don't have remember that yeah whether it's money whether it's creativity whatever it is they lack what you don't have ultimately they steal from you you heard I mean we didn't even know C beef if it wasn't for Love and& Hip Hop right yeah yeah yeah definitely yeah bro you gave birth to so many many people man like VI their careers that's the god in me that's why I'm always going to be good yeah she man so any other shows that you're working on like in the pipeline that you want to do I was telling you I working on um a late night show a late night um a late night variety show live in studio audience hopefully we'll be filming in about 40 to 60 days um beautiful concept I do I do believe people going enjoy the show um like I was saying I can't do um a podcast is too personal for me and [ __ ] like that and me watching these podcasts um dealing with these artists me myself don't have the temperament for it you know what I mean um I [ __ ] I T my hat to y'all to have to deal with artists such as myself cuz you never know what type of mood they going to come in you know what I me some of these artists have a air to them where they feel like they better than most and they would never sit and have tea with the with the maintenance guy you heard me myself me going to maintenance guy going to smoke blunts before I get on stage [Music] I live my life and and and currently uh before we let you go man what do you think about the state of hip-hop cuz like statistically numbers wise it's not looking good man e beats has played all over New York now there's now the pianos this is this is what they want you to do this is how to get us to go against each other it's all under the same culture umbrella it's afro music ref I'm a piano I'm a piano explain that what do you mean by that bro yeah R&B what do you mean by that ultimately it's all from under the same origin and creativity of the same person from the same colors is all our thing n but let's be honest Jimmy hip-hop hasn't involved bro when I was listening to Eminem what do you want mean what do you mean hip-hop hasn't evolved you guys are still rapping about the same stuff it don't you you missing the point of what hip-hop is yeah hip-hop has evolved to a point that you can be the music genres that you're told them about can be noticed you think that if there was a hip hop that I'm a piano would be noticed or afro Beach would be noticed think about that and not to take nothing away from y because you always have culture and yes that music might be big within the continent of Africa yeah right but to cross over to American Fame and commercialism you don't think that the hip-hop culture played a big part in that that's that that's a different argument now you want to have a different argument I'm telling you the semantics of where we going with this you dig like you talking about uh the the hip hop music is damn percentage that's how they want us to think when it's really not cuz we all uplifting each other you heard you think that the country music that's going on in the black people winning is not because of the hip-hop culture no no no I think no one is disputing that however so then when you say hip-hop numbers are down and damn for who no I'm talking about I know what you're talking about but damn for who tell me who it's down for because I'm still making the money I make yeah I do believe there's still a lot of artist that's making a shitload of money that they make I don't think it went down for them yeah you know what I mean but I understand what you're talking about they say the numbers and then rock and roll genre might be up like I don't really you heard like that's I'm into this business you heard and it's always up for us you heard cuz this is a business we make money out of nothing it's never a downside to this okay and and that's why I'm saying I think we're having two different conversations here cuz the conversation I'm having is I'm having I'm having right is that in as much as he's saying yeah the numbers are down because they orchestrated and whatever I get that right but also that's why I asked do you think Hip-hop has evolved cuz I grew up on hip-hop right and the same things um quote unquote you guys were rapping about in the '90s how can hipop how can hip hop evolved in the same thing that Africa been Africa been going on since the '90s aren't y going still going through the same thing we are huh we are so how could the music evolve when the music ref the time ah okay get you real stories what you want us to rap about [ __ ] that that we don't have ah we talk about [ __ ] we dream about all the time that's the good The Good Life the colorin the Ros we talk about but the truth is how the music going to change when our position hasn't changed when we still going through the same [ __ ] we've been going through okay and y'all being from Africa should know that more than we know that yeah that's facts that's fact go about that own Cod yeah yeah yeah yeah you know are bro that's a valid fact but how do you feel man like you've come from an era where you guys when what you you said in your raps I mean evolved as far as dition as far as what we rap about cuz we still stuck in the same place but as a business it has evolved to one of big time yeah yeah biggest big time money making machines you can attach yourself to this made some of the richest individuals whether you're the rapper the lawyer the executive like that's true you know what I mean the supply chain but then I think that's why you know when you get the likes of a wz coming out and Kendrick Lamar they stand out like a sore thumb because like they are rapping about but that's what music is about to stand out for those who that want to look like everybody they don't get nowhere why you think Dip set was so successful sucessful yeah because we stood out on purpose we don't want to look like or H or sound like no one else m we want yall to above all see us when we walk in the building and hear us when we get on that [ __ ] mic you heard why would you guys the diplomats I never like where did that come from the diplomats the name the diplomats yeah we diplomats oh ah okay that sounded cool no we diplomats we are Harlem diplomats and we take it as that you heard we go to the Embassy when we land in countries you heard all right okay okay okay I I sort of get that bro so in the business and how you still making money right now like from music just like how is it royalties damn you asking a lot of questions bro no I want to know bro I'm so I've got so many questions I want to ask you bro I'll tell you this music is supposed to be used so you can make as much ancillary dollars as you can because the music ain't promised everybody 15 minutes of fame ranges from a small 15 minutes of fame to a run like we having within that minute the 15 minutes the fame you better do a lot of other things to secure your bag because music is not going to be thing you be able to get paid off forever unless you're the DRS and the J that's not even 1% that's you know what I mean so you think about that so you better have some hustle you better learn how to you better have some business sense you better put your credit in order you better do a few things to secure you if you are artist [ __ ] leverage powerful penda yeah man how do you feel man when these kids these days wrap up about you know trying to act tough and rap about stuff they never done like you guys red about stuff you lived I mean I do believe a lot of these kids are going through a lot of [ __ ] that we went through and then a lot of the kids are talking about [ __ ] that they see but most of the kids are all growing up in the same community that all of that [ __ ] is going on so who tells them they don't have the right to talk about [ __ ] that they're not doing when that's still [ __ ] that they're seeing oh sure Ah that's powerful but the problem I have a problem when they rapping like they did it but they just R from somebody else's Vantage Point understand that but most of these artists that you've seen in the game some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I pretty firm in his in in his music that I'm a believer that he did some of that [ __ ] he can talk about just me I don't know you possibilities are possibilities but some things just seem correct you know mean I can't tell you for sure cuz it is music you know what I mean but some things seem correct [ __ ] man bro you got to come out to man you got to you know we haven't had a proper uh hip-hop concert in sa like since 50 N since you are come on back to the city does concerts man ah those are for old people empd the bigest artist in South Africa right now Hip-Hop Hip-Hop uh there's a guy called nastyc but nesty came here he doesn't know know you f poopa who's that nah F poopa Nigerian West African artist massive he used to pop not now for real still massive bigger than like ber boyo still it's different type of music oh stadiums is 50 60,000 people like what is this following this gu what's his name f poop F poop I don't know him bro he's from Nigeria yeah yeah yeah yeah Nigerian Prett pretty big yeah humongous bro how big was was 50 Cent bro like during his Reign man like how big was 50 Cent [ __ ] retardedly big it wasn't nothing bigger than him was Drake before Drake was dring he was oh [ __ ] he did it like it was like 50 was on a run that he never even touched the club bro like [ __ ] never seen him in the club he only did Arenas I never knew too many artist that just did that you dig like the [ __ ] was super massive every [ __ ] Rec he came out with was was going platinum and I'm just telling you the facts you heard and I always got to speak factual no matter how I feel about a person the [ __ ] was on top Super on top it was no way to knock him off his d i remember Jay-Z dropped the diss track on you did you guys resolve that beef I think you were not happy with him as the president of De jam oh man um we never really had a beef um we had some feuds back and forth through the situations that were going on over other people um and me being who I am I had to hold my ground um but to know that he actually talked about me in multiple of his records mean that I was pretty big in his eyes you dig true true cuz I didn't hear him talk about too many people in his career and if he did talk you talk about you on the record that meant something you know what I mean and I was then so for me that I I I took that like what it was like you dig like yeah J doesn't respond to take the time out to say my name you heard if I'm if I'm not that big of a deal to you you would never ever a am I am I right talk about a person you heard true it's it's a form of respect and ackowledge 100% am I right in saying a lot of [ __ ] are scared of Jay-Z bro cuz we interviewed Dam Ian I don't I don't know I'm not a lot of [ __ ] you heard I'm a man so I couldn't I I couldn't tell you that you heard I ain't scared to nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that that that dentist yeah the dentist got me there you heard you can walk in you could walk we about to fight right now you a dentist walk in you got it you got it like you got it bow down you got it I don't want no smoke let me get out of here M fact word Jimmy before you go man uh what beefs did you have so you had something beef with Jay-Z right no man I just told you we had some feuds stemming from that's beef bro stemming from other things that going on um my problem like it was all part of Us coming up in the game and things were happening we were signing a Rockefeller cam was sign a Rockefeller actually then we got opportunity to Diplomat records um the split between uh Jay and Dame came um artist took sides some took the J side some took the the Dame side which side were you on we was on the Dame side OB Dash yeah Dame Dash that's do you think Dame Dash is misunderstood bro huh you think Dame Dash is misunderstood um too smart for his own good I get that yeah if you had the opportunity again you sometimes being the smartest person in the room could be held against you especially when you want everybody to know that you're the smartest person in the room yeah yeah yeah and I get given a second chance would you still side with Dam never you wouldn't never whoa I never signed a d at all that was no no no like sided with him took his side oh give a second chance I wouldn't have sided with none of them I would we would haveed our [ __ ] business but you learned that with age yeah you heard we had no business butting into that because it wasn't a street beef and this wasn't some [ __ ] that had to do with us ultimately we were holding our [ __ ] down and [ __ ] like that but business-wise if we would if we knew what we knew now we would let them get into that they self y'all can handle that because we got records to put out and music to make and we got our own record label to run you dig and this my hinder what we got going on by us taking sides and that's why I tell people now even when people seeing all the Diplomat [ __ ] like y bro don't don't get in to taking sides with me and my bro because you never know how that might end up and if it end up to a point where we do figure out our situation then I'm looking at you funny now me and you got forever you heard you dig and there are plenty of people that did that and plenty people that didn't and plenty people that showed the same amount of love that he showed to me that it showed to cam when we were going through our imaginary situations and [ __ ] like that cuz it's all imaginary when you know you can figure figure it out now it's a saying that like don't just be in people's business when especially when they've beef and take sides cuz and I I had to learn that a lot I had took me a long time to learn that because of how we come up in the Cod that they supposedly treat us in teach us in the street and [ __ ] like that but sometimes that's not the smallest thing that we can do and then uh push a t did you ever beef with him nah that was some [ __ ] that we was on record um he did some [ __ ] I did some [ __ ] you dig that was it I never followed that I didn't even know did you know there's a pusher T me I ain't got no just know I don't know I know you're from I know you're from Africa and [ __ ] like that but people don't play with me yeah for real and I don't I don't play with people this ain't no playground you heard this is the street it's two ways don't get caught up in a yellow line it's going to be hard to cross bro yeah you heard no I don't trust me I'm from Africa but I saw what happened at the airport so that [ __ ] escalated yeah [ __ ] that was self-defense man God yo bro it looked like that guy was just messing with you bro I wish that could have never happened cuz I was trying to avoid that by all cause but [ __ ] happened sometime man you dig and definitely not not going to allow anybody do anything to me at all bro when I saw that video right like I don't know I just met you today right but I saw when you lifted that guy from the escalator threw him down he literally just went on survival mode bro like it's like there was a button that you switched on and you just like I don't [ __ ] care but yeah yeah no I mean no that's a button that I choose not to push you heard yeah exactly like you can go there quickly I choose to show restraint for a lot of reasons in my life and sometimes it's hard to you dig but where I'm at in life right now I choose positivity or all the other things that come out my way because I know how it is to be negative I was once that negative person that was very aggressive and ready to do something to to you over the minimal alistic of things and [ __ ] like that so I'm blessed to be here to try to be able to show restraint and so so the guy so the guy at the airport you guys on the same plane yeah we on the same plane so you don't have a private jet no I don't have a private jet I'm not a rich man come on Jimmy you made so much money over the years but anyway so you're in the plane what's he what's this guy saying to you like um I don't know man just [ __ ] happens I know just the started from the plane just know that what you see happen on so it starts on the plane you restrain yourself you're like all right cool my dog say whatever you want to say yeah when he gets to the airport I mean the escalator that's when I think he starts hitting you or something right yeah something like that he tried to do something like that and that's what we see man but like I said this is not something that I want to glorify it's not you think he knows who you are um if if he didn't he know now no I'm I'm sorry see sorry cuz some people just provoke I believe he was he was trolling a little bit and things like that which is cool you I mean I'm if if you in New York not time 10 you do know who I am so you know I believe it was a bit of that but God bless man hopefully that they all right hopefully the old man um cool you dig like are you spiritual cuz you mentioned God a lot man yeah I'm very spiritual very spiritual very spiritual I've been my whole family is spiritual and what does that mean in an American sense cuz um us as African for me it means a lot of different things um I was told what the church was as a young age as they drag you to church every Sunday your grandmother your moms and your family and things like that and you really don't understand what that is from that young but as you get older and you go through certain things and you make it through certain things you understand that there is a God and everybody has a relationship with their God different and sometimes going to church doesn't mean that you love your God any less or he loves you any less you dig and you say spiritual I'm very spiritual I say my prayers as much as I can sometime two three four times in a day you dig man doesn't take away from what I do and who I am because I'm still in the line for everything else everybody is in but I know every day that I'm able to wake up and every day I'm able to make a dollar and every day I'm able to keep living the life that I am I should be thankful you heard cuz that's not just me that's a higher vibration that's definitely a God you dig and I'm well aware that I've escaped many things in life that Lord knows I should not be here but then again I should be here cuz he put here for a reason he gives his toughest battles to his strongest people what the Bible say you heard and I've made it through some very tough battles which are minimal to some of the people that I had next to me in their battles you know what I mean so it's like we all got to figure it out Jim Jones thank you so much man and thanks to God for bringing you here man definitely I appreciate for making time for us bro thank you man we appreciate you tired when you got you I appreciate the fact that you could even make it man got any last question yeah man bro you said you've gone through some tough battles and you mentioned how you lost your dad at like 26 but also that you you pretty much raised yourself from the age of 15 you know from that relationship or lack of it like has it affected how you father your children 100% this made me the best father I could be but me my relationship with my father was always a great one even though he wasn't there because every day he wasn't I love them even more I wasn't one of them kids that was bitter you dig I understand that everybody went through something and at that age what he was going through there was a lot of drug addiction and I knew that from a very young age I understood what drugs was and how they were tearing up my family I never held that against my father and I was just blessed able to get back with him before he passed away so he could see that his son was making something out of himself at that time I was already signed to her uh we think we just got the Rockefeller deal so it was a very big deal for me to be able to get back with my father to show him that me somebody that you should be proud of and I know him looking down right now got be like damn I did that so you know and that's how I feel but then in turn TR here my son I don't you know I mean like I just you know mean I pride myself on making sure that I I turned my son into somebody that was way better than I could ever be you oh man yeah that's my guy shout out to you man is your son still wearing Crocs to you br he's a Croc guy you heard yeah Crocs for Life bro Crocs for Life jumping out the beam with a fresh paer Crocs on I don't want to stand him Jimmy before you go your top five rappers all time my top five rappers of all you got to give us your top five bro yeah Tupac definitely Jay-Z Drake um Drake he not like us by default of course um rock cam no Eminem No No whoa not even big you from NY and not to take nothing away from him he's extremely nice it's retardedly nice when it comes to rap but I listen to artists that kind of you know I mean do something for the life that I live and kind of what I've been through and most of these artist or artist that I'm talking about people that you know what I mean like [ __ ] better stop hating on my boy Drake all of a sudden all this Drake land I get it I get it you ain't like us let's not do that let's not forget the 15 years he been spanking [ __ ] around this [ __ ] all all all over this [ __ ] all the alley he been giving most of these artists that are now seeming to be turning on them let's you know let's not some of them gave him their best hits let's not forget the big picture here and [ __ ] like but what the hip-hop culture and this game is built on competition so I yeah but what is he with it you heard you better put your best foot forward but what has Drake given back to the culture oh that you so love here we go um what is he giving back to the culture I seen him take a lot of people on tour and turn them even richer than they already was I I seen him give a lot of people hits that they would have never had if he wouldn't have got on a record things for the culture that wouldn't have happened in turn records that we would have never knew about him to record that the culture love and things like that I mean he's not from here Canada from the hood I don't believe he owes America too much but the monster that give back to where he's from maybe we should ask about what has he done in Canada giving back to his community as opposed to what he giving back to the culture of the United States when this is not where he's from and I think that's the Divide right there now if we talk about what he's done in Canada and if it's not up to par then maybe we can talk about oh you dig but that's I think that's for the people of Canada you dig like yeah cuz but it's the people of America in the hood who made him of course you heard about but that he didn't grw up in America he didn't grew up here you heard so if you was an artist from Africa yeah like boy yeah do you think bnab boy has responsibility what do Niger of United stes n I'm taking it back home bro super duper big yes but that's what people then will call a culture vulture cuz you come into a space you know do what the people of that space do benefit from them is is is you understand what we doing like it's bro it's not because he's not take so he's not taking benab boy is Nigerian it's a Nigerian culture that is now popular in America so Drake took an American culture and enriched himself but what he's saying is that he doesn't owe anything to America cuz he's not from yet right okay right yeah I mean [ __ ] he's got no obligation Fair argument he got no obligation Fair argument yeah like he lived if he lived like I don't I don't that's how I see it you heard like that's how I see it you dig but all these [ __ ] we talking about are filthy filthy filthy rich off the opinions of men you heard what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never but what I'm just trying to tell you is how this game is played yeah you heard yeah geez man the more we talk the more they get paid the loser still gets paid too if there is a loser I don't think there's a loser when they all getting Millions off of this [ __ ] I don't think I mean like and I understand end all be all in the whole circle of it but I'm I've been in this [ __ ] for so long I'm miss you can see the politics of really get you to understand of what's really going on and [ __ ] like that this [ __ ] don't pay me a dollar to talk about it yeah hey man how tight you with Joe Bon he calls us those African guys with numbers oh yeah yeah yeah Jo this my guy buts what's up man he cool yeah he's an instigator definely know how to get under people's skin yeah I've known Joan for so long [ __ ] like that um I'm proud of him put himself in his position a whole new Lane to make a shitload of money um where it stem from the culture this what I'm talking about all the ancillary things that you need to get going on if are a artist of some type of success you got to use that to get where you want look at Joe used his startom and rap no matter what it was to able to finesse a whole new Lane of podcasting that true he's pretty big in damn near one of the forefathers of it from our culture right y'all started before him or after him we started after him but now we have more numbers than him hey doesn't matter no numbers do matter I mean no J and get num I'm cool with that but you won't be never be the considered the forefather of this whole no no no no no no no you dig 100% yeah it's Jo Joan numbers is cool I'm cool with that you get paid and I know what's a race you might be number one you heard yeah yeah but you still never be the forefather always going to have that under him like I've created this Lane for your how I feel about Ling hip hop yeah of course I got that under my belt that's mine y can never say that was yours at all yeah okay how much money you made off of it and [ __ ] like that at the end of the day you it's mine you heard Still My still mine so we always ask anybody any guest that we get on the show in closing what do you want to be remembered as man when it's all said and done I want I want to be remembered I want I want them to know that I gave more than I took because I was able to take a lot in my time amen just like that sh hey man I wish you put me on love and& hip-hop bro they got the African love of Hip Hop they got Jamaican love of Hip Hop they got they got any type of Love of Hip Hop we need the South African love of Hip Hop thanks Jim man shout out thank you bro I appreciate you man thank you we appreciate podcast and chill we out of here man boom peace welcome to Black excellenc do not fear for if you do just sip on some Grand and if you still do ask ourselves what would M [Music] do when they ask you do not fear for if you do just say an TV this is the the medicine of censorship this is the pill which one is that one podcast and chill	eyes you dig true true cuz I didn't hear him talk about too many people in his career and if he did talk you talk about you on the record that meant something you know what I mean and I was then so for me that I I I took that like what it was like you dig like yeah J doesn't respond to take the time out to say my name you heard if I'm if I'm not that big of a deal to you you would never ever a am I am I right talk about a person you heard true it's it's a form of respect and ackowledge 100% am I right in saying a lot of [ __ ] are scared of Jay-Z bro cuz we interviewed Dam Ian I don't I don't know I'm not a lot of [ __ ] you heard I'm a man so I couldn't I I couldn't tell you that you heard I ain't scared to nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that that that dentist yeah the dentist got me there you heard you can walk in you could walk we about to fight right now you a dentist walk in you got it you got it like you got it bow down you got it I don't want no smoke let me get out of here M fact word Jimmy before you go man uh what beefs did you have so you had	7	8	9	eyes you dig true true cuz I didn't hear him talk about too many people in his career and if he did talk you talk about you on the record that meant something you know what I mean and I was then so for me that I I I took that like what it was like you dig like yeah J doesn't respond to take the time out to say my name you heard if I'm if I'm not that big of a deal to you you would never ever a am I am I right talk about a person you heard true it's it's a form of respect and acknowledge 100% am I right in saying a lot of [ __ ] are scared of Jay-Z bro cuz we interviewed Dam Ian I don't I don't know I'm not a lot of [ __ ] you heard I'm a man so I couldn't I I couldn't tell you that you heard I ain't scared to nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that that that dentist yeah the dentist got me there you heard you can walk in you could walk we about to fight right now you a dentist walk in you got it you got it like you got it bow down you got it I don't want no smoke let me get out of here	M fact word Jimmy before you go man uh what beefs did you have so you had	6,4,8	2,1,5	6	4	8	2	1	5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr730VmL-lk	4,054	rr730VmL-lk	2024-06-27 00:00:00	like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano no well Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he showed me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah just understand everybody going there my guy I understand the hate exactly what you're saying yeah bro what's his name I don't it's fine you remember those some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I ain't scared of nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that the dentist yeah dentist got me there what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never [Music] [Music] yo Jimmy you do not look like you want to be here bro like someone forced you to be it's like you have to do that par they're the biggest podcast in Africa you have to be there I never look like I want to be nowhere man you got to part of me but congratulations to yall having the biggest podcast in Africa that that that's very big Africa being one of the biggest continents in the world a lot of people over there shut up man why you so tired bro crazy weekend I've been working all weekend shows different states traveling Planes Trains automobiles you know how I be a little bit too much partying yeah road kill it's tough but what's up how y'all feeling I'm good bro I literally saw um I saw your video uh yesterday for your new single the one you shot in Miami two turn temp yeah yeah how you feel about it bro that [ __ ] is lit man looks like our Vibe bro cuz we've been to Miami myself and and my partner but we never like experienced the Miami night life we were playing in Florida yeah we're DJing in Florida but two South Africans like the diaspora then West Palm Beach as well yeah DJ also yeah like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano what it's a genre it's called a piano no no cuz I'm a piano even you heard like you saw he did the whole Keys thing it has nothing to do with the piano that's where it started but has nothing to do with it these days when when I met charlot man he said the exact same thing he's like oh so you're a podcaster I'm like yeah and then you DJs I'm like no I play I'm a Pian like you're a Pianist man you one talented [ __ ] n it's a genre of music man what kind of genre is that like it's like slowed down house music with a lot of s that African influence that's the only way I can describe it so it's a it's a mix of a marriage house yeah a marriage of house music which originated here at Chicago and stuff and then we slowed it down created a sub genre called guo where guys were sort of rapping but very minimalist raps called guo then the kids were born like in the 2000s late '90s then created a whole meshup of those two genres and it's called Piano cuz a a lot of Americans think it's um afro beats it's not afro beats yeah a lot of the hence I avoided saying afro beats cuz AFR beats is from Nigeria and amap piano is far from afro beat afro beat borrows from am piano now where is amap piano originated from South Africa from the hoods from the Cassis yeah but when I when I was looking at your video bro uh the only thing in my mind was like bro what's a night like out with Jim Jones CU that [ __ ] look lit there [ __ ] everywhere bro um please please describe a night out in Miami with Jim so let's say we going to Miami right now I mean some nice are better than others but been doing it so long it's kind of like the the bare minimum for us to do in Miami just having fun but it still work at the same time like every every I'm I'm not just going out partying for no reason ni like that was we knew what we was kind of getting into we wanted to film a video so we knew we was going to ramp it up a bit take it to the to the highest form going crazy as we could but that actually happened to fall on a big weekend um and one of my dudes was celebrating so everything kind of happened for a reason but yeah Miami could take you for take you for a few a few trips man like okay so so so me and you we get in the car right I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm in Miami I hate you cuz you got a house there you stay there right yeah I got I got I got cribs there so I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm by the strip you know that Miami strip right yeah yeah yeah I mean see that's the thing about Miami when you come to visit Miami that's where people are know at like the strip and things like that I guess stand by Collins and ocean driveing all that people that live there don't really do the strip like that like you just you dig people congregate usually at night time and all the spots that usually go on down there um okay so we got security obviously you got to roll around with security right um yeah I mean that' be the safest thing for me to do so we get out the cut with security when you get to the bouncers are they letting us in cuz it's Jim Jones or are they checking our IDs cuz they've been checking our IDs just to buy beer here bro Che ID everywhere yeah everywhere yeah no I I don't think I produced my ID in since I was a teenager at clubs but yeah you won't need your ID when you with me so we walking in right yeah we going to get in oh do we have a section do we they going to give us a section VIP yeah they going to give us a section we going to get some bottles and let the night ensue got this thing called Power Hour you go to the club maybe like 2:45 to 3:45 in and out no sweat so what's the what's the purpose of that exercise the Power Hour yeah like why would you be in the cloud for an hour why would I be in a club for 4 hours it's Fu I mean I've been part I've been partying since I've been 14 I've been making money to party since I've been 18 I'm kind of burnt out so at this point I try to wait till the club is at the most popping or lest moment which is usually that hour right there and I get to enjoy everything that happened tonight and leave out of there and not be all burnt out what what does your wife say bro cuz you're married man you're surrounded by all these girls like you know I mean I'm going to worry about the women yeah is minimal to the money worry about the money more than anything so so a woman doesn't like give you grief when you come home I yeah you get you get grief all the time if you in a relationship no matter what you do if you had a job on Wall Street you get home you're going to get grief no around it you heard yeah there's women everywhere unless you work in the LGBT Club then you know I mean even there you still going to go home and get like it's no way around it you're going to get you know I mean like yeah so you've never had like been home and you had to explain like yo no man I was just doing music video it's just work like I don't know that good you going to explain yourself in every relationship and things like that I got a good woman at home who understands a job I have and things like that so for the most part but for the most part I'm a very responsible respectable person when when I'm in the streets and when I do have to interact with females and things like that yeah anyway H ladies and gentlemen welcome to another special edition of podcasting chill so CU yeah I am here we're chilling with the [ __ ] Legend Kings of Harlem please make some noise for Jim Jones Jim I gotta say bro I gotta say bro I'm going to be honest with you when I find that your name was GMO geloo gelo I'm like I'm like Jim Jones losing some G points here man what the [ __ ] is that I'm Puerto Rican and a rubian my pops is Puerto Rican the word gelo means William in English is a Spanish Spanish name cuz you know what I was thinking I was thinking that guy who does the show late night you know the short guy who does like the interviews with um this late night comedian man what are the late night shows oh man not uh bad with these oh gosh the late night guy bro uhri or something not Corin O'Brien no not Trevor Noah the other American guy man like uh old new no he's like jimm Kimel Jimmy Kimel jimy he's got that he's got that short guy his name is julo oh I don't I don't I don't got got me messed up I don't even really watch TV like that bro okay I'll be out chasing the money I ain't even got time to do that and if and if I do got some time I'm trying to get a little bit of rest or I'm thinking about money [ __ ] is crucial out here right now you better get to your dollar a lot of [ __ ] about to happen and if you ain't got no coins boy you going to be [ __ ] up you ever been to uh Puerto Rico yeah I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times yeah but business not for the Heritage part of it so like you don't know where like your your your parents were at Familiar of the place where my father's from but I never really got to do the whole go to give with my family understand the roots understand you know I mean like I didn't get to get to that part of it but I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times you find like that's important like to know you it's definitely important I had this um I did an interview not too long ago about um how important the roots are and get to know where my family from know I mean so we'll start to do that pretty soon so so so your dad you know you know your dad right yeah he's passed away oh okay God bless rest in peace what happened to him he passed away yeah like was it um medical thing or yeah natural causes oh damn like when you young or um maybe when I was uh 23 24 oh damn bro SED to hear that man maybe 26 right before my son passed right before my God bless right before my son Bor bro but you like 47 right now I look good for 47y old man no homo you know what I mean thank you very much like what was what's keeping you looking so good is it the yoga yeah a lot of yoga a lot of Pilates I stay in shape um I'm very uh very big on Fitness um work out like five six times a week um it's one of the best ways to stay young and have better chances of living a long life is that why you do it or maybe there's other purpose like you know a lot of people are in gym for their mental health I mean it's very it's very it's very therapeutic I will say that but my main goal is to look good of course but to give me better chances of living forever bro so how you got into rap um I don't know correct me if I'm wrong right but you used to skip church and go to the train station to to rap like no I never skipped Church to go on the train station and rap I skipped Church to go to the train station and go play video games and run the streets and do everything a bad little kid did from the streets of hollow when we was like S8 and n and things like that I don't know if you know about anything about the subway system in New York but that's the pathway system that get you to all five burrows and we definitely was on the subway which maybe we shouldn't have been but we was a little uh loose um for me rapping actually rapping didn't start later on in life to actually uh C and um they I got a deal and things like that and that was the first time me myself really thought about actually raing cuz I'll be honest with you like um dipet I don't really know much about dipet however I know about you guys individually like Cameron old boy like one of my favorite songs uh jul sna had hear that that was Cameron and Jules and jwes he both was on he both old boy and heon yeah why don't you jump on those tracks man those tracks are massive they was already done I was there for the making of both of them incredible tracks yeah and then how did dipit start start like how did you guys start the whole movement um organically kiss him Harem gr up together um talented kids Cam and Mason BL sh was they already was doing music um Everybody gradu graduated high school I didn't get to go to college they went to college they got kicked out they got kicked out they come moved in with me from that that was a uh foundation for them to D into the music you've been in the game for like 20 30 odd years right been in the game for since 1997 how would you describe the different eras of like um hip-hop right especially now cuz um obviously we all know about the Kendrick Lamar song they're not like us but I didn't know how big it was until I landed in in in America and it's like it's like a movement the video yeah it's like huge it's massive bro yeah it's a big record Kendrick did that shout out to Kendrick shout out to my boy Drake but what do you think about like the evolution of hip-hop in all the different areas you've been a part of what do you mean what do I think about it it's a great thing to be a part of something that um you could only dream of everybody doesn't get a chance to be in this game um I've been fortunate enough to be here for so many genres and errors and seen so many people come and go I've watched the smallest artist to the biggest artist who you thow will be here forever and going um I got stories for days I can tell you about um how I feel about it I feel great I feel blessed you know what I mean I feel lucky this [ __ ] don't it's not promised and for me to still be here is definitely a blessing so in the 90s what was the vibe like man like like what in the 90s as far as what in hip-hop yeah it was it was different um 90s was a great era um one of my favorite errors um that was the era we first first came outside um started to get out deal uh very aggressive era uh no social media um cell phones were just being born um everything that you seen you was something that you could grab on to um artists had to go to the towns we couldn't just get on your phone and music you had to go get you couldn't just have access to it so it was a it was it it was a hunt um you had to touch the Tails kiss babies do radio everything like it was just a different ER but who was around like during that time when you who was around like Tupac was did you like meet Tupac Tupac I didn't get to meet Tupac um Tupac passed away what 95 was that yeah right in big in '97 um no I got to see Tupac do a few times in Harlem um that was dope but um not Tupac passed away before we got to get in the record game but I've seen a lot of a lot of artists in my time from a young age to old age we were partying in clubs as teenagers before we even got a record deal and things like that like we were in clubs since high school and [ __ ] like that so any interactions with Big L he was from Harlem right yeah shouts to Big Al Big Al was definitely from Harlem um 139th NFL Big L um I was one of the Cam's uh close friends um actually put cam on a dope record that started to give uh Cam and bloodshed and and her mcgree her was already popping too but guy gave them some notice when it came to R so when you come out like who's who's popping at that time is it git is it mop D it's way before G when we came out I was like Eminem just dropped oh [ __ ] this is Slim Shady not M like Slim Shady I I remember that that was like cam had dropped and Eminem had dropped DMX had dropped Nori had dropped um Big Pun had dropped lud Chris Luda had just started coming out um Nelly Nelly down down baby yeah shouts to coola love um yeah that type of error shouts to shouts to Fat Joe shouts to Buster they was already in it uh Nas was already in it Jay start going crazy that's when he just started taking over with the 1 million 2 million 3 million 4 um yeah very competitive very edgy um lot of the big dogs um had real roots in the streets um especially in the streets of New York so that put that put a real Mystique on everything when it came to the music um all the events with topnotch um it just was a different feel man it was a heavy heavy dope boy era um this was before the drug dealers wanted to be Rappers that's when the rappers wanted to be drug dealers you know what I mean and and that Arrow was was a very dope high impact trenel and Russian it was a was a great error bro I saw an interview you did correct me if I'm wrong I might be paraphrasing but you mentioned a place called the tunnel or something where everybody would be and you guys were [ __ ] [ __ ] in the bathrooms please please describe that manest cuz a place like that couldn't exist right now bro with all this woke [ __ ] I mean yeah and the cancel cult I would say it was probably the greatest Club The Hip hopers have seen and it was during the 90s era it was the Golden Era um in New York they got you had stories about like Studio 54 in that era when everybody used all the biggest of big used to go to Studio 54 well the tunnel was what Studio 54 was to that era to our era and it didn't make so many people and nationalities and genres and just everybody was like a big pumbo all for the sake of the culture you had some of the flyest models to some of the biggest drug dealers biggest gang bangers I mean every former elicit street life you could think of was in the spot along with the biggest artists and rappers and actors and models that you could find into all athletes um it would definitely like that um and was this like per invite or just like anybody could Rock up there nah you couldn't just rock up there for this is '90s entry was like $100 first of all $100 for a club that was the first time we ever heard of it and that was a lot of money back then especially we probably started in '94 going there teenager so $100 was sto a lot of money in New York at the time sneakers wasn't even costing $100 um to get in the club you definitely had to be connected to know somebody or you had to wait on a long line that usually was a block long um they had like an Express line you could pay $100 to get on Express line that'll get you to the door quicker and then you pay your entry fee um streets was blocked off you was a big dog you was able to bring your cars down there I was able to bring like four five of them if I wanted to um yeah the club was just it was different man pull up to the door security they taking people's shoes off they searching your jacket twisting people inside out like they about to go on the Rikers Island I got to I gave security High files I never took my shoes off and not since high school I when we used go in high school we used to get our shoes taken off and things like that make you feel like you going to the cental bookings and [ __ ] like that so what gave you that clout that allowed you to bring four cars in when nobody or you had to be a big dog to bring four cars in when you could just give them a high five instead of removing your shoes and you're young by then like what gives you that CL I was a big dog since a small pup bro J yeah man what gave you those you know credentials at such a young age to suppos all these people cuz Dr Tre was there yeah you putting in four cars not removing shoes I was a good Lord Biden citizen everybody love Jim Jones even even the girls like would you just rock up they say let's go to the bathroom that's it yeah now that well yeah there was a lot of that going on they had a uh the layout was different first of all the club was a block long a whole city block um wow there was like three other four other clubs within the club or spots that look like clubs um the main floor was humongously big the DJ was like a a lifeguard Tower in the middle of the club um you go upstairs they had a VR big V PE upstairs and then go through a door it open up to the bathroom the bathroom was like a unisex Club [ __ ] had a big ass bar in the middle of the bathroom uh bunch of stalls lined up um that [ __ ] was like a hotel inside Lions cocaine everything yeah they was going down a lot of sex was going down there a lot of a lot of drugs was going down in there um yeah the tunnel was definitely uh a landmark to New York City when it comes to the clubs I I definitely um I always think about that club um it did a lot for me in my life um it gave me a lot of imagination when it came to to the culture and the things I was seeing from a young age as to where I want to be and the direction I want to go in yeah we was going there since high school so when you seeing people like Mike Tyson and all these people coming in big cheer on and just having their way as a kid go out got to go to school the next morning you you in school thinking about that [ __ ] like w man this school [ __ ] [ __ ] this school [ __ ] I need some money and I need to go to the tunnel that's all I want to [ __ ] do that's wild man now can you imagine because we in sa right we're looking at all the videos that you guys are pulling out there like we're looking at this lifestyle and then you F Track to 2024 right M and the P didy thing breaks out right I mean i' rather not even to get into that yeah just don't I rather the do I don't you know I mean like it's not it's not my business oh I mean like this you heard God bless it's too much n yeah and it's not me to have an opinion on certain things cuz I ain't perfect I've been through my own [ __ ] in life and I see a lot of people that have even this doing too much just know that I ain't perfect so I choose not to talk on certain [ __ ] that you know what I mean a lot of other people people been talking about I let them keep doing the talk and I got other [ __ ] to work on I'm trying to work on me being a better person yeah I respect I respect that man but were ever part of any gang or like you sounding like the F never hey we don't the F in South Africa man only PS I'm just playing with you yeah I've been affiliated with the bloods in New York City um ENT Tre um yeah so crazy have you ever been to sa like have you ever been to Africa or um I've been to Africa where did you go uh gaban gille damn G to perform there um I went to perform there but uh got some great friends there they actually had ran the country at the time this is before the big yeah yeah overtaking and stuff like that but I had a ball out there I got to go to an island called Pony um that was a dope experience as they took me to the jungles I got to see some of the indigenous people um it was like a a real um life Awakening like and I got to see how also the rich people live out there also like I got to see both sides like that you know what I mean it was it was a great experience I out there for like a week um I haven't been back since but yeah it was dope you never been to South Africa never been to South Africa bro so the reason why I asked that is because like yo bro like American culture has infiltrated South Africa like you can't believe like you know we got people worshiping you guys you know Jim Jones rappers and everything you so we've got rappers who rap just like you and youd say they're like Bloods and Crips but they've never they've never left sa you know cuz that's how influential uh the culture is right but from you when you see or hear that like what do you guys think like do you think is like some [ __ ] like or like leave don't don't follow the gang life you know what I mean oh as far as that is concerned um there's two sides to that this what you do as a gang member that turns it into something that becomes a crime or whatever that end but the Brotherhood part of it is what the most of us joined up for when we coming up in the hood and need that Brotherhood lean on somebody is that type of camaraderie that pretty much stood for and there's a lot of other great attributes that comes with affiliation or you becoming a part of a gang um it gets twisted up because we all come up in these urban communities and our back is against the wall we don't have no opportunities um it's very dormant uh we on top of each other so naturally testosterone testosterone wins in a lot of these situations where these kids find s in bad situations and for that I would tell people to kind of stay away from this type of life um I don't want to oppose my will we all going to experience what we going to experience but I can't tell you the consequences to this type of Lifestyle could be very dear you heard ethal a lot of people don't get to make it where I made it and Escape that lifestyle that could have put me away or could have put me in the dirt I mean so here as a Living testament to tell you that these consequences are terrible the odds on you making it out of that life in a positive manner are very slim I mean but if you are in that life and you taking it as a Brotherhood and try to uplift your brothers I know there's a lot of people around you that are doing a lot of [ __ ] that that that that that's very crazy you know what I mean if you're a part of that and you got the positive minder then you try to uplift your brother and instill some positivity within them because it's very cold out here so I've always been curious bro like so when that when you you you start getting immersed you know or Affiliated in the gang life how does that affect the conversation at home with your parents like your mom your dad and just the domestic you know Dynamics I a't grow my parents I was a grown man since I was like 15 I made my own money since I was like 16 my grandmother left me in high school man I was raising my Sisters by myself in the projects I hustle every I ever got in my life that's why music saved my life I was so grateful to be able to be next to cam and him getting a deal at such a very young age to be able to still be making money off that [ __ ] right now you were U anr for Warner uh music group yeah I was the director of anr for Warner Music Group um years ago uh shouts to Kevin L shouts to Leo Cohen for giving me the opportunity um great opportunity uh I excelled at it extremely very young with a lot of power but didn't understand what I had at hand um didn't have too many people in my corner that were telling me the things that I should have been doing with that type of position as opposed to some type of weird way be hating you know I mean so that's what happened but as you get older you learn you learn and you move on who did you discover while you were in that position uh I would tell you a story I I know I've helped try s uh they come to tra songs that you know today he's always in he's always in we know why no n but he was a young kid at the time and uh they were actually going to cut him from the label we had a big uh um it's like uh one of them uh some events they be doing not the talent shows the uh well was something like that all the artists had to come perform and then they pretty much didn't know that they was on a Cho and block at the time when I was an executive and and he was one of the artists that they were going to cut and I remember Kevin L specifically ask me yo what we should do with him I'm about to cut him I don't know what to do with him and when I heard him uh singing and I saw him perform I was like this is this is one artist you should keep and did that and now we all tra songs on so many dope ass records is it true you could have signed Drake yeah I had a chance to sign uh I had a chance to do business with Drake um through Allan grum blat um when I was doing business at cotch um it was a different era I didn't understand what Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he show me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah understand everybody going at my guy I understand the hate man the hate is so phenomenal it's just how this game go man this game is so tricky man these [ __ ] just like females in this game we ain't going to get into that man there's a lot of uh but wait wait wait so so with Drake like are you are you seeing him perform like try songs or like you just heard of the guy just a conversation Allan called me about signing a kid let me hear some of his music um and I was like the kid know how to rap but I don't know what to do with him his image is crazy and him couple years later heard him on a Wheezy mixtape going crazy I was like wow this kid is about to go wham inside of this business and he sure did and you're know trying to call Weezy like yo man I gotta get that kid or something n he was already signed a young money and jcole did you miss on jcole as well I could have signed J Cole bro jcole was in the studio with me every day and at that point jcole I he's he remind me of a knockoff Drake and not to say it like that but that's who he sounded like he came to my studio every day rapping to these Drake beats rapping like Drake Cadence like Drake he could rap his ass off yeah you heard yeah but it was already a drake out there he had the Caesar it was different like two lightskinn [ __ ] might not K when raing the same but you never know what you got in front of you man you dig and those are lessons I I've took with me to moving forward when I see artists and and I hate artists I always give them more than just hearing just just I got to I got to I gotta try to capture the whole picture I make sure I just don't you mean so I don't miss nothing else because I've missed a few people and I've helped a few people um gain a lot of success in in my time in this industry whether it been by me having a meeting with them or me having influence on them or you know I mean so you know and there's never like any animosity like Jake Cole or Drake never came up to be like yo you could have signed me look at me now bro I mean me and Drake is cool as [ __ ] um I see J Cole I don't think he I mean I don't think that's no he some [ __ ] he might want to keep to himself not to be like that sh the co he not that type of artist he's not a you I mean yeah you did I look I look at as we can see I want to mention an artist who like I'm really fond of like I think this guy's [ __ ] amazing musically talented everything that he touched like turned to Gold who's that uh kid k bro K Cy yeah yeah did you help him with his career yeah I birth K Cy wow J me how so bro bir them nobody would have know who K Cy was at all if I a jump on this remix record but it wasn't even remix he wasn't even a nobody like I tell a story all the time I had a inter used to work for me said he got some dudes that do videos they would like to do a video for me told them come let me see they work they show me their videos the first video they showed me was of the kid Cy record he's on the top of a roof some simple video the record sound more wavy than the opportunity for them to do a video I'm like well if you'll get me the beat to this record I Remix this record and then y'all can shoot the video to that record wow and that's what they did and then um the radio station ripped the record off of YouTube and start playing it at Hot 97 and K Cy was born bro why do you think especially about kid Cy cuz from him when I listen to music right it wasn't really no no other kid Cy record besides the one that I was on yeah man he's not in they don't play his records where I be at at all not to be funny wow bro and we listen to him like all that day and night you know remember only record I know yeah it's the only record I know unless it's like a pop record that everybody know and I and I'm even not paying attention to it but he don't his records don't get played nowhere that i' be at not like that unless I go into a different farm and that's the type of music they playing in one of these funny clubs that play fist pump music and pop music he's not into like you dig like they don't play his music in the clubs I'll be at maybe in Vegas and [ __ ] like that but that's not like they not pumping this [ __ ] in live they not pumping this [ __ ] in Atlanta they not pumping this [ __ ] down the Stafford room or you know what I mean like they I'm not saying nothing like that but I don't hear it in the strip clubs I don't hear like you know what I mean so but he's a very successful person with some of the greats like Kanye to put him in a position to win and [ __ ] like that and I think he's way more better as an actor than he is a musician and that's just my POS that's just my opinion he did I seen him in the movie uh about the race car [ __ ] where he was F the playe like he got a lot of Charisma and [ __ ] like that on on camera for what I could see and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean bro I mean for you as Jim Jones to to see these kids you're introduced to them by an intern and then to hop onto that song it's something selfless you know to just give these unknown kids an opportunity of sharing a song with you where do you think that selflessness comes from how was that unknown kid I'm still an unknown kid anytime I get an opportunity that's an opportunity I should be able to give to somebody else bro the fact that you could even come to our podcast shout out man yeah man you don't even know us exactly what you're saying yeah know us what's his name I don't it's fine you know remember those kids who who did the video for him anyway you know remember I remember like that kids that got the biggest African podcast I'm definitely going to know like them is my guys right family right there appreciate I really mean that that sincerely and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean I I bump in too many people in my life and been across too many people in my journey to actually remember everybody's name but the face and the cause and I mean BR I want to understand right the first time you came up with the concept For Love and Hip Hop where were you what was happening that um that was something like uh me and Christy she had opportunity to do uh her own reality show um and actually fell through and that kind of she was kind of she wanted to do that I can see she was eager about doing that when it fell through kind you know I mean [ __ ] with her mood and [ __ ] like that so so so so so the initial concept what was it was just Chrissy just showing like what's life the initial concept was about she had her own thing going on about a group of women that was supposed to do a reality show had nothing to do with me yeah that [ __ ] fell through she lost that opportunity to end up not going people have been begging me to do reality TV for past couple years at the time and I and you reality TV gold man I refused to do it yeah and then when that happened I was like all right I got I'll do this for you and we'll make it about you and females that have to that are involved with artist such as myself and show what the relationship side is when you're dealing with a high-profile artist and you know what I mean how so that's how that started bro and that thing became a monster super super monster like it's still big till this day bro 100% so do you have like uh ownership in that we we were link a all that you know at that time when maybe the second season we just in a position where we refuse to compromise our dignity for anyone or any dollar and sometimes it be like that you know what I mean um but ain't no stress off my back T my hat to him you no but but but we got to talk about that because you see like this podcast um it's blackowned right it's just me and a couple of other people that are involved in the podcast right and we're always striving for ownership so a lot of um Brands and investors have come to try to buy the podcast and we say know cuz like we believe in ownership and telling the story the way we want to tell it right so what went wrong in that because as a hustler I believe like that's your also end goal MH um it wasn't something that I was just a lot of different layers and [ __ ] like that and I was too worried about doing other things and we had the opportunity to gain all ownership 50% of the whole TV show and all that but it still wasn't worth GE bro that's insane you just let go like that yeah bro it's your brain child bro there is no Love and& Hip Hop without you bro I still got a brain you heard yeah those are for people that don't have a brain that lack creativity people that steal things from you lack what you don't have remember that yeah whether it's money whether it's creativity whatever it is they lack what you don't have ultimately they steal from you you heard I mean we didn't even know C beef if it wasn't for Love and& Hip Hop right yeah yeah yeah definitely yeah bro you gave birth to so many many people man like VI their careers that's the god in me that's why I'm always going to be good yeah she man so any other shows that you're working on like in the pipeline that you want to do I was telling you I working on um a late night show a late night um a late night variety show live in studio audience hopefully we'll be filming in about 40 to 60 days um beautiful concept I do I do believe people going enjoy the show um like I was saying I can't do um a podcast is too personal for me and [ __ ] like that and me watching these podcasts um dealing with these artists me myself don't have the temperament for it you know what I mean um I [ __ ] I T my hat to y'all to have to deal with artists such as myself cuz you never know what type of mood they going to come in you know what I me some of these artists have a air to them where they feel like they better than most and they would never sit and have tea with the with the maintenance guy you heard me myself me going to maintenance guy going to smoke blunts before I get on stage [Music] I live my life and and and currently uh before we let you go man what do you think about the state of hip-hop cuz like statistically numbers wise it's not looking good man e beats has played all over New York now there's now the pianos this is this is what they want you to do this is how to get us to go against each other it's all under the same culture umbrella it's afro music ref I'm a piano I'm a piano explain that what do you mean by that bro yeah R&B what do you mean by that ultimately it's all from under the same origin and creativity of the same person from the same colors is all our thing n but let's be honest Jimmy hip-hop hasn't involved bro when I was listening to Eminem what do you want mean what do you mean hip-hop hasn't evolved you guys are still rapping about the same stuff it don't you you missing the point of what hip-hop is yeah hip-hop has evolved to a point that you can be the music genres that you're told them about can be noticed you think that if there was a hip hop that I'm a piano would be noticed or afro Beach would be noticed think about that and not to take nothing away from y because you always have culture and yes that music might be big within the continent of Africa yeah right but to cross over to American Fame and commercialism you don't think that the hip-hop culture played a big part in that that's that that's a different argument now you want to have a different argument I'm telling you the semantics of where we going with this you dig like you talking about uh the the hip hop music is damn percentage that's how they want us to think when it's really not cuz we all uplifting each other you heard you think that the country music that's going on in the black people winning is not because of the hip-hop culture no no no I think no one is disputing that however so then when you say hip-hop numbers are down and damn for who no I'm talking about I know what you're talking about but damn for who tell me who it's down for because I'm still making the money I make yeah I do believe there's still a lot of artist that's making a shitload of money that they make I don't think it went down for them yeah you know what I mean but I understand what you're talking about they say the numbers and then rock and roll genre might be up like I don't really you heard like that's I'm into this business you heard and it's always up for us you heard cuz this is a business we make money out of nothing it's never a downside to this okay and and that's why I'm saying I think we're having two different conversations here cuz the conversation I'm having is I'm having I'm having right is that in as much as he's saying yeah the numbers are down because they orchestrated and whatever I get that right but also that's why I asked do you think Hip-hop has evolved cuz I grew up on hip-hop right and the same things um quote unquote you guys were rapping about in the '90s how can hipop how can hip hop evolved in the same thing that Africa been Africa been going on since the '90s aren't y going still going through the same thing we are huh we are so how could the music evolve when the music ref the time ah okay get you real stories what you want us to rap about [ __ ] that that we don't have ah we talk about [ __ ] we dream about all the time that's the good The Good Life the colorin the Ros we talk about but the truth is how the music going to change when our position hasn't changed when we still going through the same [ __ ] we've been going through okay and y'all being from Africa should know that more than we know that yeah that's facts that's fact go about that own Cod yeah yeah yeah yeah you know are bro that's a valid fact but how do you feel man like you've come from an era where you guys when what you you said in your raps I mean evolved as far as dition as far as what we rap about cuz we still stuck in the same place but as a business it has evolved to one of big time yeah yeah biggest big time money making machines you can attach yourself to this made some of the richest individuals whether you're the rapper the lawyer the executive like that's true you know what I mean the supply chain but then I think that's why you know when you get the likes of a wz coming out and Kendrick Lamar they stand out like a sore thumb because like they are rapping about but that's what music is about to stand out for those who that want to look like everybody they don't get nowhere why you think Dip set was so successful sucessful yeah because we stood out on purpose we don't want to look like or H or sound like no one else m we want yall to above all see us when we walk in the building and hear us when we get on that [ __ ] mic you heard why would you guys the diplomats I never like where did that come from the diplomats the name the diplomats yeah we diplomats oh ah okay that sounded cool no we diplomats we are Harlem diplomats and we take it as that you heard we go to the Embassy when we land in countries you heard all right okay okay okay I I sort of get that bro so in the business and how you still making money right now like from music just like how is it royalties damn you asking a lot of questions bro no I want to know bro I'm so I've got so many questions I want to ask you bro I'll tell you this music is supposed to be used so you can make as much ancillary dollars as you can because the music ain't promised everybody 15 minutes of fame ranges from a small 15 minutes of fame to a run like we having within that minute the 15 minutes the fame you better do a lot of other things to secure your bag because music is not going to be thing you be able to get paid off forever unless you're the DRS and the J that's not even 1% that's you know what I mean so you think about that so you better have some hustle you better learn how to you better have some business sense you better put your credit in order you better do a few things to secure you if you are artist [ __ ] leverage powerful penda yeah man how do you feel man when these kids these days wrap up about you know trying to act tough and rap about stuff they never done like you guys red about stuff you lived I mean I do believe a lot of these kids are going through a lot of [ __ ] that we went through and then a lot of the kids are talking about [ __ ] that they see but most of the kids are all growing up in the same community that all of that [ __ ] is going on so who tells them they don't have the right to talk about [ __ ] that they're not doing when that's still [ __ ] that they're seeing oh sure Ah that's powerful but the problem I have a problem when they rapping like they did it but they just R from somebody else's Vantage Point understand that but most of these artists that you've seen in the game some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I pretty firm in his in in his music that I'm a believer that he did some of that [ __ ] he can talk about just me I don't know you possibilities are possibilities but some things just seem correct you know mean I can't tell you for sure cuz it is music you know what I mean but some things seem correct [ __ ] man bro you got to come out to man you got to you know we haven't had a proper uh hip-hop concert in sa like since 50 N since you are come on back to the city does concerts man ah those are for old people empd the bigest artist in South Africa right now Hip-Hop Hip-Hop uh there's a guy called nastyc but nesty came here he doesn't know know you f poopa who's that nah F poopa Nigerian West African artist massive he used to pop not now for real still massive bigger than like ber boyo still it's different type of music oh stadiums is 50 60,000 people like what is this following this gu what's his name f poop F poop I don't know him bro he's from Nigeria yeah yeah yeah yeah Nigerian Prett pretty big yeah humongous bro how big was was 50 Cent bro like during his Reign man like how big was 50 Cent [ __ ] retardedly big it wasn't nothing bigger than him was Drake before Drake was dring he was oh [ __ ] he did it like it was like 50 was on a run that he never even touched the club bro like [ __ ] never seen him in the club he only did Arenas I never knew too many artist that just did that you dig like the [ __ ] was super massive every [ __ ] Rec he came out with was was going platinum and I'm just telling you the facts you heard and I always got to speak factual no matter how I feel about a person the [ __ ] was on top Super on top it was no way to knock him off his d i remember Jay-Z dropped the diss track on you did you guys resolve that beef I think you were not happy with him as the president of De jam oh man um we never really had a beef um we had some feuds back and forth through the situations that were going on over other people um and me being who I am I had to hold my ground um but to know that he actually talked about me in multiple of his records mean that I was pretty big in his eyes you dig true true cuz I didn't hear him talk about too many people in his career and if he did talk you talk about you on the record that meant something you know what I mean and I was then so for me that I I I took that like what it was like you dig like yeah J doesn't respond to take the time out to say my name you heard if I'm if I'm not that big of a deal to you you would never ever a am I am I right talk about a person you heard true it's it's a form of respect and ackowledge 100% am I right in saying a lot of [ __ ] are scared of Jay-Z bro cuz we interviewed Dam Ian I don't I don't know I'm not a lot of [ __ ] you heard I'm a man so I couldn't I I couldn't tell you that you heard I ain't scared to nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that that that dentist yeah the dentist got me there you heard you can walk in you could walk we about to fight right now you a dentist walk in you got it you got it like you got it bow down you got it I don't want no smoke let me get out of here M fact word Jimmy before you go man uh what beefs did you have so you had something beef with Jay-Z right no man I just told you we had some feuds stemming from that's beef bro stemming from other things that going on um my problem like it was all part of Us coming up in the game and things were happening we were signing a Rockefeller cam was sign a Rockefeller actually then we got opportunity to Diplomat records um the split between uh Jay and Dame came um artist took sides some took the J side some took the the Dame side which side were you on we was on the Dame side OB Dash yeah Dame Dash that's do you think Dame Dash is misunderstood bro huh you think Dame Dash is misunderstood um too smart for his own good I get that yeah if you had the opportunity again you sometimes being the smartest person in the room could be held against you especially when you want everybody to know that you're the smartest person in the room yeah yeah yeah and I get given a second chance would you still side with Dam never you wouldn't never whoa I never signed a d at all that was no no no like sided with him took his side oh give a second chance I wouldn't have sided with none of them I would we would haveed our [ __ ] business but you learned that with age yeah you heard we had no business butting into that because it wasn't a street beef and this wasn't some [ __ ] that had to do with us ultimately we were holding our [ __ ] down and [ __ ] like that but business-wise if we would if we knew what we knew now we would let them get into that they self y'all can handle that because we got records to put out and music to make and we got our own record label to run you dig and this my hinder what we got going on by us taking sides and that's why I tell people now even when people seeing all the Diplomat [ __ ] like y bro don't don't get in to taking sides with me and my bro because you never know how that might end up and if it end up to a point where we do figure out our situation then I'm looking at you funny now me and you got forever you heard you dig and there are plenty of people that did that and plenty people that didn't and plenty people that showed the same amount of love that he showed to me that it showed to cam when we were going through our imaginary situations and [ __ ] like that cuz it's all imaginary when you know you can figure figure it out now it's a saying that like don't just be in people's business when especially when they've beef and take sides cuz and I I had to learn that a lot I had took me a long time to learn that because of how we come up in the Cod that they supposedly treat us in teach us in the street and [ __ ] like that but sometimes that's not the smallest thing that we can do and then uh push a t did you ever beef with him nah that was some [ __ ] that we was on record um he did some [ __ ] I did some [ __ ] you dig that was it I never followed that I didn't even know did you know there's a pusher T me I ain't got no just know I don't know I know you're from I know you're from Africa and [ __ ] like that but people don't play with me yeah for real and I don't I don't play with people this ain't no playground you heard this is the street it's two ways don't get caught up in a yellow line it's going to be hard to cross bro yeah you heard no I don't trust me I'm from Africa but I saw what happened at the airport so that [ __ ] escalated yeah [ __ ] that was self-defense man God yo bro it looked like that guy was just messing with you bro I wish that could have never happened cuz I was trying to avoid that by all cause but [ __ ] happened sometime man you dig and definitely not not going to allow anybody do anything to me at all bro when I saw that video right like I don't know I just met you today right but I saw when you lifted that guy from the escalator threw him down he literally just went on survival mode bro like it's like there was a button that you switched on and you just like I don't [ __ ] care but yeah yeah no I mean no that's a button that I choose not to push you heard yeah exactly like you can go there quickly I choose to show restraint for a lot of reasons in my life and sometimes it's hard to you dig but where I'm at in life right now I choose positivity or all the other things that come out my way because I know how it is to be negative I was once that negative person that was very aggressive and ready to do something to to you over the minimal alistic of things and [ __ ] like that so I'm blessed to be here to try to be able to show restraint and so so the guy so the guy at the airport you guys on the same plane yeah we on the same plane so you don't have a private jet no I don't have a private jet I'm not a rich man come on Jimmy you made so much money over the years but anyway so you're in the plane what's he what's this guy saying to you like um I don't know man just [ __ ] happens I know just the started from the plane just know that what you see happen on so it starts on the plane you restrain yourself you're like all right cool my dog say whatever you want to say yeah when he gets to the airport I mean the escalator that's when I think he starts hitting you or something right yeah something like that he tried to do something like that and that's what we see man but like I said this is not something that I want to glorify it's not you think he knows who you are um if if he didn't he know now no I'm I'm sorry see sorry cuz some people just provoke I believe he was he was trolling a little bit and things like that which is cool you I mean I'm if if you in New York not time 10 you do know who I am so you know I believe it was a bit of that but God bless man hopefully that they all right hopefully the old man um cool you dig like are you spiritual cuz you mentioned God a lot man yeah I'm very spiritual very spiritual very spiritual I've been my whole family is spiritual and what does that mean in an American sense cuz um us as African for me it means a lot of different things um I was told what the church was as a young age as they drag you to church every Sunday your grandmother your moms and your family and things like that and you really don't understand what that is from that young but as you get older and you go through certain things and you make it through certain things you understand that there is a God and everybody has a relationship with their God different and sometimes going to church doesn't mean that you love your God any less or he loves you any less you dig and you say spiritual I'm very spiritual I say my prayers as much as I can sometime two three four times in a day you dig man doesn't take away from what I do and who I am because I'm still in the line for everything else everybody is in but I know every day that I'm able to wake up and every day I'm able to make a dollar and every day I'm able to keep living the life that I am I should be thankful you heard cuz that's not just me that's a higher vibration that's definitely a God you dig and I'm well aware that I've escaped many things in life that Lord knows I should not be here but then again I should be here cuz he put here for a reason he gives his toughest battles to his strongest people what the Bible say you heard and I've made it through some very tough battles which are minimal to some of the people that I had next to me in their battles you know what I mean so it's like we all got to figure it out Jim Jones thank you so much man and thanks to God for bringing you here man definitely I appreciate for making time for us bro thank you man we appreciate you tired when you got you I appreciate the fact that you could even make it man got any last question yeah man bro you said you've gone through some tough battles and you mentioned how you lost your dad at like 26 but also that you you pretty much raised yourself from the age of 15 you know from that relationship or lack of it like has it affected how you father your children 100% this made me the best father I could be but me my relationship with my father was always a great one even though he wasn't there because every day he wasn't I love them even more I wasn't one of them kids that was bitter you dig I understand that everybody went through something and at that age what he was going through there was a lot of drug addiction and I knew that from a very young age I understood what drugs was and how they were tearing up my family I never held that against my father and I was just blessed able to get back with him before he passed away so he could see that his son was making something out of himself at that time I was already signed to her uh we think we just got the Rockefeller deal so it was a very big deal for me to be able to get back with my father to show him that me somebody that you should be proud of and I know him looking down right now got be like damn I did that so you know and that's how I feel but then in turn TR here my son I don't you know I mean like I just you know mean I pride myself on making sure that I I turned my son into somebody that was way better than I could ever be you oh man yeah that's my guy shout out to you man is your son still wearing Crocs to you br he's a Croc guy you heard yeah Crocs for Life bro Crocs for Life jumping out the beam with a fresh paer Crocs on I don't want to stand him Jimmy before you go your top five rappers all time my top five rappers of all you got to give us your top five bro yeah Tupac definitely Jay-Z Drake um Drake he not like us by default of course um rock cam no Eminem No No whoa not even big you from NY and not to take nothing away from him he's extremely nice it's retardedly nice when it comes to rap but I listen to artists that kind of you know I mean do something for the life that I live and kind of what I've been through and most of these artist or artist that I'm talking about people that you know what I mean like [ __ ] better stop hating on my boy Drake all of a sudden all this Drake land I get it I get it you ain't like us let's not do that let's not forget the 15 years he been spanking [ __ ] around this [ __ ] all all all over this [ __ ] all the alley he been giving most of these artists that are now seeming to be turning on them let's you know let's not some of them gave him their best hits let's not forget the big picture here and [ __ ] like but what the hip-hop culture and this game is built on competition so I yeah but what is he with it you heard you better put your best foot forward but what has Drake given back to the culture oh that you so love here we go um what is he giving back to the culture I seen him take a lot of people on tour and turn them even richer than they already was I I seen him give a lot of people hits that they would have never had if he wouldn't have got on a record things for the culture that wouldn't have happened in turn records that we would have never knew about him to record that the culture love and things like that I mean he's not from here Canada from the hood I don't believe he owes America too much but the monster that give back to where he's from maybe we should ask about what has he done in Canada giving back to his community as opposed to what he giving back to the culture of the United States when this is not where he's from and I think that's the Divide right there now if we talk about what he's done in Canada and if it's not up to par then maybe we can talk about oh you dig but that's I think that's for the people of Canada you dig like yeah cuz but it's the people of America in the hood who made him of course you heard about but that he didn't grw up in America he didn't grew up here you heard so if you was an artist from Africa yeah like boy yeah do you think bnab boy has responsibility what do Niger of United stes n I'm taking it back home bro super duper big yes but that's what people then will call a culture vulture cuz you come into a space you know do what the people of that space do benefit from them is is is you understand what we doing like it's bro it's not because he's not take so he's not taking benab boy is Nigerian it's a Nigerian culture that is now popular in America so Drake took an American culture and enriched himself but what he's saying is that he doesn't owe anything to America cuz he's not from yet right okay right yeah I mean [ __ ] he's got no obligation Fair argument he got no obligation Fair argument yeah like he lived if he lived like I don't I don't that's how I see it you heard like that's how I see it you dig but all these [ __ ] we talking about are filthy filthy filthy rich off the opinions of men you heard what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never but what I'm just trying to tell you is how this game is played yeah you heard yeah geez man the more we talk the more they get paid the loser still gets paid too if there is a loser I don't think there's a loser when they all getting Millions off of this [ __ ] I don't think I mean like and I understand end all be all in the whole circle of it but I'm I've been in this [ __ ] for so long I'm miss you can see the politics of really get you to understand of what's really going on and [ __ ] like that this [ __ ] don't pay me a dollar to talk about it yeah hey man how tight you with Joe Bon he calls us those African guys with numbers oh yeah yeah yeah Jo this my guy buts what's up man he cool yeah he's an instigator definely know how to get under people's skin yeah I've known Joan for so long [ __ ] like that um I'm proud of him put himself in his position a whole new Lane to make a shitload of money um where it stem from the culture this what I'm talking about all the ancillary things that you need to get going on if are a artist of some type of success you got to use that to get where you want look at Joe used his startom and rap no matter what it was to able to finesse a whole new Lane of podcasting that true he's pretty big in damn near one of the forefathers of it from our culture right y'all started before him or after him we started after him but now we have more numbers than him hey doesn't matter no numbers do matter I mean no J and get num I'm cool with that but you won't be never be the considered the forefather of this whole no no no no no no no you dig 100% yeah it's Jo Joan numbers is cool I'm cool with that you get paid and I know what's a race you might be number one you heard yeah yeah but you still never be the forefather always going to have that under him like I've created this Lane for your how I feel about Ling hip hop yeah of course I got that under my belt that's mine y can never say that was yours at all yeah okay how much money you made off of it and [ __ ] like that at the end of the day you it's mine you heard Still My still mine so we always ask anybody any guest that we get on the show in closing what do you want to be remembered as man when it's all said and done I want I want to be remembered I want I want them to know that I gave more than I took because I was able to take a lot in my time amen just like that sh hey man I wish you put me on love and& hip-hop bro they got the African love of Hip Hop they got Jamaican love of Hip Hop they got they got any type of Love of Hip Hop we need the South African love of Hip Hop thanks Jim man shout out thank you bro I appreciate you man thank you we appreciate podcast and chill we out of here man boom peace welcome to Black excellenc do not fear for if you do just sip on some Grand and if you still do ask ourselves what would M [Music] do when they ask you do not fear for if you do just say an TV this is the the medicine of censorship this is the pill which one is that one podcast and chill	something beef with Jay-Z right no man I just told you we had some feuds stemming from that's beef bro stemming from other things that going on um my problem like it was all part of Us coming up in the game and things were happening we were signing a Rockefeller cam was sign a Rockefeller actually then we got opportunity to Diplomat records um the split between uh Jay and Dame came um artist took sides some took the J side some took the the Dame side which side were you on we was on the Dame side OB Dash yeah Dame Dash that's do you think Dame Dash is misunderstood bro huh you think Dame Dash is misunderstood um too smart for his own good I get that yeah if you had the opportunity again you sometimes being the smartest person in the room could be held against you especially when you want everybody to know that you're the smartest person in the room yeah yeah yeah and I get given a second chance would you still side with Dam never you wouldn't never whoa I never signed a d at all that was no no no like sided with him took his side oh give a second chance I wouldn't have sided with none of them I would we would haveed our [ __ ] business but you learned that with age yeah you heard we had no business butting into that because it wasn't a street	5	4	2	something beef with Jay-Z right no man I just told you we had some feuds stemming from that's beef bro stemming from other things that going on um my problem like it was all part of Us coming up in the game and things were happening we were signing a Rockefeller cam was sign a Rockefeller actually then we got opportunity to Diplomat records um the split between uh Jay and Dame came um artist took sides some took the J side some took the the Dame side which side were you on we was on the Dame side OB Dash yeah Dame Dash that's do you think Dame Dash is misunderstood bro huh you think Dame Dash is misunderstood um too smart for his own good I get that yeah if you had the opportunity again you sometimes being the smartest person in the room could be held against you especially when you want everybody to know that you're the smartest person in the room yeah yeah yeah and I get given a second chance would you still side with Dam never you wouldn't never whoa I never signed a d at all that was no no no like sided with him took his side oh give a second chance I wouldn't have sided with none of them I would we would haveed our [ __ ] business but you learned that with age yeah you heard we had no business butting into that because it wasn't a street	you think Dame Dash is misunderstood bro?	2,4,5	0,2,3	2	4	5	0	2	3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr730VmL-lk	4,054	rr730VmL-lk	2024-06-27 00:00:00	like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano no well Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he showed me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah just understand everybody going there my guy I understand the hate exactly what you're saying yeah bro what's his name I don't it's fine you remember those some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I ain't scared of nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that the dentist yeah dentist got me there what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never [Music] [Music] yo Jimmy you do not look like you want to be here bro like someone forced you to be it's like you have to do that par they're the biggest podcast in Africa you have to be there I never look like I want to be nowhere man you got to part of me but congratulations to yall having the biggest podcast in Africa that that that's very big Africa being one of the biggest continents in the world a lot of people over there shut up man why you so tired bro crazy weekend I've been working all weekend shows different states traveling Planes Trains automobiles you know how I be a little bit too much partying yeah road kill it's tough but what's up how y'all feeling I'm good bro I literally saw um I saw your video uh yesterday for your new single the one you shot in Miami two turn temp yeah yeah how you feel about it bro that [ __ ] is lit man looks like our Vibe bro cuz we've been to Miami myself and and my partner but we never like experienced the Miami night life we were playing in Florida yeah we're DJing in Florida but two South Africans like the diaspora then West Palm Beach as well yeah DJ also yeah like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano what it's a genre it's called a piano no no cuz I'm a piano even you heard like you saw he did the whole Keys thing it has nothing to do with the piano that's where it started but has nothing to do with it these days when when I met charlot man he said the exact same thing he's like oh so you're a podcaster I'm like yeah and then you DJs I'm like no I play I'm a Pian like you're a Pianist man you one talented [ __ ] n it's a genre of music man what kind of genre is that like it's like slowed down house music with a lot of s that African influence that's the only way I can describe it so it's a it's a mix of a marriage house yeah a marriage of house music which originated here at Chicago and stuff and then we slowed it down created a sub genre called guo where guys were sort of rapping but very minimalist raps called guo then the kids were born like in the 2000s late '90s then created a whole meshup of those two genres and it's called Piano cuz a a lot of Americans think it's um afro beats it's not afro beats yeah a lot of the hence I avoided saying afro beats cuz AFR beats is from Nigeria and amap piano is far from afro beat afro beat borrows from am piano now where is amap piano originated from South Africa from the hoods from the Cassis yeah but when I when I was looking at your video bro uh the only thing in my mind was like bro what's a night like out with Jim Jones CU that [ __ ] look lit there [ __ ] everywhere bro um please please describe a night out in Miami with Jim so let's say we going to Miami right now I mean some nice are better than others but been doing it so long it's kind of like the the bare minimum for us to do in Miami just having fun but it still work at the same time like every every I'm I'm not just going out partying for no reason ni like that was we knew what we was kind of getting into we wanted to film a video so we knew we was going to ramp it up a bit take it to the to the highest form going crazy as we could but that actually happened to fall on a big weekend um and one of my dudes was celebrating so everything kind of happened for a reason but yeah Miami could take you for take you for a few a few trips man like okay so so so me and you we get in the car right I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm in Miami I hate you cuz you got a house there you stay there right yeah I got I got I got cribs there so I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm by the strip you know that Miami strip right yeah yeah yeah I mean see that's the thing about Miami when you come to visit Miami that's where people are know at like the strip and things like that I guess stand by Collins and ocean driveing all that people that live there don't really do the strip like that like you just you dig people congregate usually at night time and all the spots that usually go on down there um okay so we got security obviously you got to roll around with security right um yeah I mean that' be the safest thing for me to do so we get out the cut with security when you get to the bouncers are they letting us in cuz it's Jim Jones or are they checking our IDs cuz they've been checking our IDs just to buy beer here bro Che ID everywhere yeah everywhere yeah no I I don't think I produced my ID in since I was a teenager at clubs but yeah you won't need your ID when you with me so we walking in right yeah we going to get in oh do we have a section do we they going to give us a section VIP yeah they going to give us a section we going to get some bottles and let the night ensue got this thing called Power Hour you go to the club maybe like 2:45 to 3:45 in and out no sweat so what's the what's the purpose of that exercise the Power Hour yeah like why would you be in the cloud for an hour why would I be in a club for 4 hours it's Fu I mean I've been part I've been partying since I've been 14 I've been making money to party since I've been 18 I'm kind of burnt out so at this point I try to wait till the club is at the most popping or lest moment which is usually that hour right there and I get to enjoy everything that happened tonight and leave out of there and not be all burnt out what what does your wife say bro cuz you're married man you're surrounded by all these girls like you know I mean I'm going to worry about the women yeah is minimal to the money worry about the money more than anything so so a woman doesn't like give you grief when you come home I yeah you get you get grief all the time if you in a relationship no matter what you do if you had a job on Wall Street you get home you're going to get grief no around it you heard yeah there's women everywhere unless you work in the LGBT Club then you know I mean even there you still going to go home and get like it's no way around it you're going to get you know I mean like yeah so you've never had like been home and you had to explain like yo no man I was just doing music video it's just work like I don't know that good you going to explain yourself in every relationship and things like that I got a good woman at home who understands a job I have and things like that so for the most part but for the most part I'm a very responsible respectable person when when I'm in the streets and when I do have to interact with females and things like that yeah anyway H ladies and gentlemen welcome to another special edition of podcasting chill so CU yeah I am here we're chilling with the [ __ ] Legend Kings of Harlem please make some noise for Jim Jones Jim I gotta say bro I gotta say bro I'm going to be honest with you when I find that your name was GMO geloo gelo I'm like I'm like Jim Jones losing some G points here man what the [ __ ] is that I'm Puerto Rican and a rubian my pops is Puerto Rican the word gelo means William in English is a Spanish Spanish name cuz you know what I was thinking I was thinking that guy who does the show late night you know the short guy who does like the interviews with um this late night comedian man what are the late night shows oh man not uh bad with these oh gosh the late night guy bro uhri or something not Corin O'Brien no not Trevor Noah the other American guy man like uh old new no he's like jimm Kimel Jimmy Kimel jimy he's got that he's got that short guy his name is julo oh I don't I don't I don't got got me messed up I don't even really watch TV like that bro okay I'll be out chasing the money I ain't even got time to do that and if and if I do got some time I'm trying to get a little bit of rest or I'm thinking about money [ __ ] is crucial out here right now you better get to your dollar a lot of [ __ ] about to happen and if you ain't got no coins boy you going to be [ __ ] up you ever been to uh Puerto Rico yeah I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times yeah but business not for the Heritage part of it so like you don't know where like your your your parents were at Familiar of the place where my father's from but I never really got to do the whole go to give with my family understand the roots understand you know I mean like I didn't get to get to that part of it but I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times you find like that's important like to know you it's definitely important I had this um I did an interview not too long ago about um how important the roots are and get to know where my family from know I mean so we'll start to do that pretty soon so so so your dad you know you know your dad right yeah he's passed away oh okay God bless rest in peace what happened to him he passed away yeah like was it um medical thing or yeah natural causes oh damn like when you young or um maybe when I was uh 23 24 oh damn bro SED to hear that man maybe 26 right before my son passed right before my God bless right before my son Bor bro but you like 47 right now I look good for 47y old man no homo you know what I mean thank you very much like what was what's keeping you looking so good is it the yoga yeah a lot of yoga a lot of Pilates I stay in shape um I'm very uh very big on Fitness um work out like five six times a week um it's one of the best ways to stay young and have better chances of living a long life is that why you do it or maybe there's other purpose like you know a lot of people are in gym for their mental health I mean it's very it's very it's very therapeutic I will say that but my main goal is to look good of course but to give me better chances of living forever bro so how you got into rap um I don't know correct me if I'm wrong right but you used to skip church and go to the train station to to rap like no I never skipped Church to go on the train station and rap I skipped Church to go to the train station and go play video games and run the streets and do everything a bad little kid did from the streets of hollow when we was like S8 and n and things like that I don't know if you know about anything about the subway system in New York but that's the pathway system that get you to all five burrows and we definitely was on the subway which maybe we shouldn't have been but we was a little uh loose um for me rapping actually rapping didn't start later on in life to actually uh C and um they I got a deal and things like that and that was the first time me myself really thought about actually raing cuz I'll be honest with you like um dipet I don't really know much about dipet however I know about you guys individually like Cameron old boy like one of my favorite songs uh jul sna had hear that that was Cameron and Jules and jwes he both was on he both old boy and heon yeah why don't you jump on those tracks man those tracks are massive they was already done I was there for the making of both of them incredible tracks yeah and then how did dipit start start like how did you guys start the whole movement um organically kiss him Harem gr up together um talented kids Cam and Mason BL sh was they already was doing music um Everybody gradu graduated high school I didn't get to go to college they went to college they got kicked out they got kicked out they come moved in with me from that that was a uh foundation for them to D into the music you've been in the game for like 20 30 odd years right been in the game for since 1997 how would you describe the different eras of like um hip-hop right especially now cuz um obviously we all know about the Kendrick Lamar song they're not like us but I didn't know how big it was until I landed in in in America and it's like it's like a movement the video yeah it's like huge it's massive bro yeah it's a big record Kendrick did that shout out to Kendrick shout out to my boy Drake but what do you think about like the evolution of hip-hop in all the different areas you've been a part of what do you mean what do I think about it it's a great thing to be a part of something that um you could only dream of everybody doesn't get a chance to be in this game um I've been fortunate enough to be here for so many genres and errors and seen so many people come and go I've watched the smallest artist to the biggest artist who you thow will be here forever and going um I got stories for days I can tell you about um how I feel about it I feel great I feel blessed you know what I mean I feel lucky this [ __ ] don't it's not promised and for me to still be here is definitely a blessing so in the 90s what was the vibe like man like like what in the 90s as far as what in hip-hop yeah it was it was different um 90s was a great era um one of my favorite errors um that was the era we first first came outside um started to get out deal uh very aggressive era uh no social media um cell phones were just being born um everything that you seen you was something that you could grab on to um artists had to go to the towns we couldn't just get on your phone and music you had to go get you couldn't just have access to it so it was a it was it it was a hunt um you had to touch the Tails kiss babies do radio everything like it was just a different ER but who was around like during that time when you who was around like Tupac was did you like meet Tupac Tupac I didn't get to meet Tupac um Tupac passed away what 95 was that yeah right in big in '97 um no I got to see Tupac do a few times in Harlem um that was dope but um not Tupac passed away before we got to get in the record game but I've seen a lot of a lot of artists in my time from a young age to old age we were partying in clubs as teenagers before we even got a record deal and things like that like we were in clubs since high school and [ __ ] like that so any interactions with Big L he was from Harlem right yeah shouts to Big Al Big Al was definitely from Harlem um 139th NFL Big L um I was one of the Cam's uh close friends um actually put cam on a dope record that started to give uh Cam and bloodshed and and her mcgree her was already popping too but guy gave them some notice when it came to R so when you come out like who's who's popping at that time is it git is it mop D it's way before G when we came out I was like Eminem just dropped oh [ __ ] this is Slim Shady not M like Slim Shady I I remember that that was like cam had dropped and Eminem had dropped DMX had dropped Nori had dropped um Big Pun had dropped lud Chris Luda had just started coming out um Nelly Nelly down down baby yeah shouts to coola love um yeah that type of error shouts to shouts to Fat Joe shouts to Buster they was already in it uh Nas was already in it Jay start going crazy that's when he just started taking over with the 1 million 2 million 3 million 4 um yeah very competitive very edgy um lot of the big dogs um had real roots in the streets um especially in the streets of New York so that put that put a real Mystique on everything when it came to the music um all the events with topnotch um it just was a different feel man it was a heavy heavy dope boy era um this was before the drug dealers wanted to be Rappers that's when the rappers wanted to be drug dealers you know what I mean and and that Arrow was was a very dope high impact trenel and Russian it was a was a great error bro I saw an interview you did correct me if I'm wrong I might be paraphrasing but you mentioned a place called the tunnel or something where everybody would be and you guys were [ __ ] [ __ ] in the bathrooms please please describe that manest cuz a place like that couldn't exist right now bro with all this woke [ __ ] I mean yeah and the cancel cult I would say it was probably the greatest Club The Hip hopers have seen and it was during the 90s era it was the Golden Era um in New York they got you had stories about like Studio 54 in that era when everybody used all the biggest of big used to go to Studio 54 well the tunnel was what Studio 54 was to that era to our era and it didn't make so many people and nationalities and genres and just everybody was like a big pumbo all for the sake of the culture you had some of the flyest models to some of the biggest drug dealers biggest gang bangers I mean every former elicit street life you could think of was in the spot along with the biggest artists and rappers and actors and models that you could find into all athletes um it would definitely like that um and was this like per invite or just like anybody could Rock up there nah you couldn't just rock up there for this is '90s entry was like $100 first of all $100 for a club that was the first time we ever heard of it and that was a lot of money back then especially we probably started in '94 going there teenager so $100 was sto a lot of money in New York at the time sneakers wasn't even costing $100 um to get in the club you definitely had to be connected to know somebody or you had to wait on a long line that usually was a block long um they had like an Express line you could pay $100 to get on Express line that'll get you to the door quicker and then you pay your entry fee um streets was blocked off you was a big dog you was able to bring your cars down there I was able to bring like four five of them if I wanted to um yeah the club was just it was different man pull up to the door security they taking people's shoes off they searching your jacket twisting people inside out like they about to go on the Rikers Island I got to I gave security High files I never took my shoes off and not since high school I when we used go in high school we used to get our shoes taken off and things like that make you feel like you going to the cental bookings and [ __ ] like that so what gave you that clout that allowed you to bring four cars in when nobody or you had to be a big dog to bring four cars in when you could just give them a high five instead of removing your shoes and you're young by then like what gives you that CL I was a big dog since a small pup bro J yeah man what gave you those you know credentials at such a young age to suppos all these people cuz Dr Tre was there yeah you putting in four cars not removing shoes I was a good Lord Biden citizen everybody love Jim Jones even even the girls like would you just rock up they say let's go to the bathroom that's it yeah now that well yeah there was a lot of that going on they had a uh the layout was different first of all the club was a block long a whole city block um wow there was like three other four other clubs within the club or spots that look like clubs um the main floor was humongously big the DJ was like a a lifeguard Tower in the middle of the club um you go upstairs they had a VR big V PE upstairs and then go through a door it open up to the bathroom the bathroom was like a unisex Club [ __ ] had a big ass bar in the middle of the bathroom uh bunch of stalls lined up um that [ __ ] was like a hotel inside Lions cocaine everything yeah they was going down a lot of sex was going down there a lot of a lot of drugs was going down in there um yeah the tunnel was definitely uh a landmark to New York City when it comes to the clubs I I definitely um I always think about that club um it did a lot for me in my life um it gave me a lot of imagination when it came to to the culture and the things I was seeing from a young age as to where I want to be and the direction I want to go in yeah we was going there since high school so when you seeing people like Mike Tyson and all these people coming in big cheer on and just having their way as a kid go out got to go to school the next morning you you in school thinking about that [ __ ] like w man this school [ __ ] [ __ ] this school [ __ ] I need some money and I need to go to the tunnel that's all I want to [ __ ] do that's wild man now can you imagine because we in sa right we're looking at all the videos that you guys are pulling out there like we're looking at this lifestyle and then you F Track to 2024 right M and the P didy thing breaks out right I mean i' rather not even to get into that yeah just don't I rather the do I don't you know I mean like it's not it's not my business oh I mean like this you heard God bless it's too much n yeah and it's not me to have an opinion on certain things cuz I ain't perfect I've been through my own [ __ ] in life and I see a lot of people that have even this doing too much just know that I ain't perfect so I choose not to talk on certain [ __ ] that you know what I mean a lot of other people people been talking about I let them keep doing the talk and I got other [ __ ] to work on I'm trying to work on me being a better person yeah I respect I respect that man but were ever part of any gang or like you sounding like the F never hey we don't the F in South Africa man only PS I'm just playing with you yeah I've been affiliated with the bloods in New York City um ENT Tre um yeah so crazy have you ever been to sa like have you ever been to Africa or um I've been to Africa where did you go uh gaban gille damn G to perform there um I went to perform there but uh got some great friends there they actually had ran the country at the time this is before the big yeah yeah overtaking and stuff like that but I had a ball out there I got to go to an island called Pony um that was a dope experience as they took me to the jungles I got to see some of the indigenous people um it was like a a real um life Awakening like and I got to see how also the rich people live out there also like I got to see both sides like that you know what I mean it was it was a great experience I out there for like a week um I haven't been back since but yeah it was dope you never been to South Africa never been to South Africa bro so the reason why I asked that is because like yo bro like American culture has infiltrated South Africa like you can't believe like you know we got people worshiping you guys you know Jim Jones rappers and everything you so we've got rappers who rap just like you and youd say they're like Bloods and Crips but they've never they've never left sa you know cuz that's how influential uh the culture is right but from you when you see or hear that like what do you guys think like do you think is like some [ __ ] like or like leave don't don't follow the gang life you know what I mean oh as far as that is concerned um there's two sides to that this what you do as a gang member that turns it into something that becomes a crime or whatever that end but the Brotherhood part of it is what the most of us joined up for when we coming up in the hood and need that Brotherhood lean on somebody is that type of camaraderie that pretty much stood for and there's a lot of other great attributes that comes with affiliation or you becoming a part of a gang um it gets twisted up because we all come up in these urban communities and our back is against the wall we don't have no opportunities um it's very dormant uh we on top of each other so naturally testosterone testosterone wins in a lot of these situations where these kids find s in bad situations and for that I would tell people to kind of stay away from this type of life um I don't want to oppose my will we all going to experience what we going to experience but I can't tell you the consequences to this type of Lifestyle could be very dear you heard ethal a lot of people don't get to make it where I made it and Escape that lifestyle that could have put me away or could have put me in the dirt I mean so here as a Living testament to tell you that these consequences are terrible the odds on you making it out of that life in a positive manner are very slim I mean but if you are in that life and you taking it as a Brotherhood and try to uplift your brothers I know there's a lot of people around you that are doing a lot of [ __ ] that that that that that's very crazy you know what I mean if you're a part of that and you got the positive minder then you try to uplift your brother and instill some positivity within them because it's very cold out here so I've always been curious bro like so when that when you you you start getting immersed you know or Affiliated in the gang life how does that affect the conversation at home with your parents like your mom your dad and just the domestic you know Dynamics I a't grow my parents I was a grown man since I was like 15 I made my own money since I was like 16 my grandmother left me in high school man I was raising my Sisters by myself in the projects I hustle every I ever got in my life that's why music saved my life I was so grateful to be able to be next to cam and him getting a deal at such a very young age to be able to still be making money off that [ __ ] right now you were U anr for Warner uh music group yeah I was the director of anr for Warner Music Group um years ago uh shouts to Kevin L shouts to Leo Cohen for giving me the opportunity um great opportunity uh I excelled at it extremely very young with a lot of power but didn't understand what I had at hand um didn't have too many people in my corner that were telling me the things that I should have been doing with that type of position as opposed to some type of weird way be hating you know I mean so that's what happened but as you get older you learn you learn and you move on who did you discover while you were in that position uh I would tell you a story I I know I've helped try s uh they come to tra songs that you know today he's always in he's always in we know why no n but he was a young kid at the time and uh they were actually going to cut him from the label we had a big uh um it's like uh one of them uh some events they be doing not the talent shows the uh well was something like that all the artists had to come perform and then they pretty much didn't know that they was on a Cho and block at the time when I was an executive and and he was one of the artists that they were going to cut and I remember Kevin L specifically ask me yo what we should do with him I'm about to cut him I don't know what to do with him and when I heard him uh singing and I saw him perform I was like this is this is one artist you should keep and did that and now we all tra songs on so many dope ass records is it true you could have signed Drake yeah I had a chance to sign uh I had a chance to do business with Drake um through Allan grum blat um when I was doing business at cotch um it was a different era I didn't understand what Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he show me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah understand everybody going at my guy I understand the hate man the hate is so phenomenal it's just how this game go man this game is so tricky man these [ __ ] just like females in this game we ain't going to get into that man there's a lot of uh but wait wait wait so so with Drake like are you are you seeing him perform like try songs or like you just heard of the guy just a conversation Allan called me about signing a kid let me hear some of his music um and I was like the kid know how to rap but I don't know what to do with him his image is crazy and him couple years later heard him on a Wheezy mixtape going crazy I was like wow this kid is about to go wham inside of this business and he sure did and you're know trying to call Weezy like yo man I gotta get that kid or something n he was already signed a young money and jcole did you miss on jcole as well I could have signed J Cole bro jcole was in the studio with me every day and at that point jcole I he's he remind me of a knockoff Drake and not to say it like that but that's who he sounded like he came to my studio every day rapping to these Drake beats rapping like Drake Cadence like Drake he could rap his ass off yeah you heard yeah but it was already a drake out there he had the Caesar it was different like two lightskinn [ __ ] might not K when raing the same but you never know what you got in front of you man you dig and those are lessons I I've took with me to moving forward when I see artists and and I hate artists I always give them more than just hearing just just I got to I got to I gotta try to capture the whole picture I make sure I just don't you mean so I don't miss nothing else because I've missed a few people and I've helped a few people um gain a lot of success in in my time in this industry whether it been by me having a meeting with them or me having influence on them or you know I mean so you know and there's never like any animosity like Jake Cole or Drake never came up to be like yo you could have signed me look at me now bro I mean me and Drake is cool as [ __ ] um I see J Cole I don't think he I mean I don't think that's no he some [ __ ] he might want to keep to himself not to be like that sh the co he not that type of artist he's not a you I mean yeah you did I look I look at as we can see I want to mention an artist who like I'm really fond of like I think this guy's [ __ ] amazing musically talented everything that he touched like turned to Gold who's that uh kid k bro K Cy yeah yeah did you help him with his career yeah I birth K Cy wow J me how so bro bir them nobody would have know who K Cy was at all if I a jump on this remix record but it wasn't even remix he wasn't even a nobody like I tell a story all the time I had a inter used to work for me said he got some dudes that do videos they would like to do a video for me told them come let me see they work they show me their videos the first video they showed me was of the kid Cy record he's on the top of a roof some simple video the record sound more wavy than the opportunity for them to do a video I'm like well if you'll get me the beat to this record I Remix this record and then y'all can shoot the video to that record wow and that's what they did and then um the radio station ripped the record off of YouTube and start playing it at Hot 97 and K Cy was born bro why do you think especially about kid Cy cuz from him when I listen to music right it wasn't really no no other kid Cy record besides the one that I was on yeah man he's not in they don't play his records where I be at at all not to be funny wow bro and we listen to him like all that day and night you know remember only record I know yeah it's the only record I know unless it's like a pop record that everybody know and I and I'm even not paying attention to it but he don't his records don't get played nowhere that i' be at not like that unless I go into a different farm and that's the type of music they playing in one of these funny clubs that play fist pump music and pop music he's not into like you dig like they don't play his music in the clubs I'll be at maybe in Vegas and [ __ ] like that but that's not like they not pumping this [ __ ] in live they not pumping this [ __ ] in Atlanta they not pumping this [ __ ] down the Stafford room or you know what I mean like they I'm not saying nothing like that but I don't hear it in the strip clubs I don't hear like you know what I mean so but he's a very successful person with some of the greats like Kanye to put him in a position to win and [ __ ] like that and I think he's way more better as an actor than he is a musician and that's just my POS that's just my opinion he did I seen him in the movie uh about the race car [ __ ] where he was F the playe like he got a lot of Charisma and [ __ ] like that on on camera for what I could see and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean bro I mean for you as Jim Jones to to see these kids you're introduced to them by an intern and then to hop onto that song it's something selfless you know to just give these unknown kids an opportunity of sharing a song with you where do you think that selflessness comes from how was that unknown kid I'm still an unknown kid anytime I get an opportunity that's an opportunity I should be able to give to somebody else bro the fact that you could even come to our podcast shout out man yeah man you don't even know us exactly what you're saying yeah know us what's his name I don't it's fine you know remember those kids who who did the video for him anyway you know remember I remember like that kids that got the biggest African podcast I'm definitely going to know like them is my guys right family right there appreciate I really mean that that sincerely and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean I I bump in too many people in my life and been across too many people in my journey to actually remember everybody's name but the face and the cause and I mean BR I want to understand right the first time you came up with the concept For Love and Hip Hop where were you what was happening that um that was something like uh me and Christy she had opportunity to do uh her own reality show um and actually fell through and that kind of she was kind of she wanted to do that I can see she was eager about doing that when it fell through kind you know I mean [ __ ] with her mood and [ __ ] like that so so so so so the initial concept what was it was just Chrissy just showing like what's life the initial concept was about she had her own thing going on about a group of women that was supposed to do a reality show had nothing to do with me yeah that [ __ ] fell through she lost that opportunity to end up not going people have been begging me to do reality TV for past couple years at the time and I and you reality TV gold man I refused to do it yeah and then when that happened I was like all right I got I'll do this for you and we'll make it about you and females that have to that are involved with artist such as myself and show what the relationship side is when you're dealing with a high-profile artist and you know what I mean how so that's how that started bro and that thing became a monster super super monster like it's still big till this day bro 100% so do you have like uh ownership in that we we were link a all that you know at that time when maybe the second season we just in a position where we refuse to compromise our dignity for anyone or any dollar and sometimes it be like that you know what I mean um but ain't no stress off my back T my hat to him you no but but but we got to talk about that because you see like this podcast um it's blackowned right it's just me and a couple of other people that are involved in the podcast right and we're always striving for ownership so a lot of um Brands and investors have come to try to buy the podcast and we say know cuz like we believe in ownership and telling the story the way we want to tell it right so what went wrong in that because as a hustler I believe like that's your also end goal MH um it wasn't something that I was just a lot of different layers and [ __ ] like that and I was too worried about doing other things and we had the opportunity to gain all ownership 50% of the whole TV show and all that but it still wasn't worth GE bro that's insane you just let go like that yeah bro it's your brain child bro there is no Love and& Hip Hop without you bro I still got a brain you heard yeah those are for people that don't have a brain that lack creativity people that steal things from you lack what you don't have remember that yeah whether it's money whether it's creativity whatever it is they lack what you don't have ultimately they steal from you you heard I mean we didn't even know C beef if it wasn't for Love and& Hip Hop right yeah yeah yeah definitely yeah bro you gave birth to so many many people man like VI their careers that's the god in me that's why I'm always going to be good yeah she man so any other shows that you're working on like in the pipeline that you want to do I was telling you I working on um a late night show a late night um a late night variety show live in studio audience hopefully we'll be filming in about 40 to 60 days um beautiful concept I do I do believe people going enjoy the show um like I was saying I can't do um a podcast is too personal for me and [ __ ] like that and me watching these podcasts um dealing with these artists me myself don't have the temperament for it you know what I mean um I [ __ ] I T my hat to y'all to have to deal with artists such as myself cuz you never know what type of mood they going to come in you know what I me some of these artists have a air to them where they feel like they better than most and they would never sit and have tea with the with the maintenance guy you heard me myself me going to maintenance guy going to smoke blunts before I get on stage [Music] I live my life and and and currently uh before we let you go man what do you think about the state of hip-hop cuz like statistically numbers wise it's not looking good man e beats has played all over New York now there's now the pianos this is this is what they want you to do this is how to get us to go against each other it's all under the same culture umbrella it's afro music ref I'm a piano I'm a piano explain that what do you mean by that bro yeah R&B what do you mean by that ultimately it's all from under the same origin and creativity of the same person from the same colors is all our thing n but let's be honest Jimmy hip-hop hasn't involved bro when I was listening to Eminem what do you want mean what do you mean hip-hop hasn't evolved you guys are still rapping about the same stuff it don't you you missing the point of what hip-hop is yeah hip-hop has evolved to a point that you can be the music genres that you're told them about can be noticed you think that if there was a hip hop that I'm a piano would be noticed or afro Beach would be noticed think about that and not to take nothing away from y because you always have culture and yes that music might be big within the continent of Africa yeah right but to cross over to American Fame and commercialism you don't think that the hip-hop culture played a big part in that that's that that's a different argument now you want to have a different argument I'm telling you the semantics of where we going with this you dig like you talking about uh the the hip hop music is damn percentage that's how they want us to think when it's really not cuz we all uplifting each other you heard you think that the country music that's going on in the black people winning is not because of the hip-hop culture no no no I think no one is disputing that however so then when you say hip-hop numbers are down and damn for who no I'm talking about I know what you're talking about but damn for who tell me who it's down for because I'm still making the money I make yeah I do believe there's still a lot of artist that's making a shitload of money that they make I don't think it went down for them yeah you know what I mean but I understand what you're talking about they say the numbers and then rock and roll genre might be up like I don't really you heard like that's I'm into this business you heard and it's always up for us you heard cuz this is a business we make money out of nothing it's never a downside to this okay and and that's why I'm saying I think we're having two different conversations here cuz the conversation I'm having is I'm having I'm having right is that in as much as he's saying yeah the numbers are down because they orchestrated and whatever I get that right but also that's why I asked do you think Hip-hop has evolved cuz I grew up on hip-hop right and the same things um quote unquote you guys were rapping about in the '90s how can hipop how can hip hop evolved in the same thing that Africa been Africa been going on since the '90s aren't y going still going through the same thing we are huh we are so how could the music evolve when the music ref the time ah okay get you real stories what you want us to rap about [ __ ] that that we don't have ah we talk about [ __ ] we dream about all the time that's the good The Good Life the colorin the Ros we talk about but the truth is how the music going to change when our position hasn't changed when we still going through the same [ __ ] we've been going through okay and y'all being from Africa should know that more than we know that yeah that's facts that's fact go about that own Cod yeah yeah yeah yeah you know are bro that's a valid fact but how do you feel man like you've come from an era where you guys when what you you said in your raps I mean evolved as far as dition as far as what we rap about cuz we still stuck in the same place but as a business it has evolved to one of big time yeah yeah biggest big time money making machines you can attach yourself to this made some of the richest individuals whether you're the rapper the lawyer the executive like that's true you know what I mean the supply chain but then I think that's why you know when you get the likes of a wz coming out and Kendrick Lamar they stand out like a sore thumb because like they are rapping about but that's what music is about to stand out for those who that want to look like everybody they don't get nowhere why you think Dip set was so successful sucessful yeah because we stood out on purpose we don't want to look like or H or sound like no one else m we want yall to above all see us when we walk in the building and hear us when we get on that [ __ ] mic you heard why would you guys the diplomats I never like where did that come from the diplomats the name the diplomats yeah we diplomats oh ah okay that sounded cool no we diplomats we are Harlem diplomats and we take it as that you heard we go to the Embassy when we land in countries you heard all right okay okay okay I I sort of get that bro so in the business and how you still making money right now like from music just like how is it royalties damn you asking a lot of questions bro no I want to know bro I'm so I've got so many questions I want to ask you bro I'll tell you this music is supposed to be used so you can make as much ancillary dollars as you can because the music ain't promised everybody 15 minutes of fame ranges from a small 15 minutes of fame to a run like we having within that minute the 15 minutes the fame you better do a lot of other things to secure your bag because music is not going to be thing you be able to get paid off forever unless you're the DRS and the J that's not even 1% that's you know what I mean so you think about that so you better have some hustle you better learn how to you better have some business sense you better put your credit in order you better do a few things to secure you if you are artist [ __ ] leverage powerful penda yeah man how do you feel man when these kids these days wrap up about you know trying to act tough and rap about stuff they never done like you guys red about stuff you lived I mean I do believe a lot of these kids are going through a lot of [ __ ] that we went through and then a lot of the kids are talking about [ __ ] that they see but most of the kids are all growing up in the same community that all of that [ __ ] is going on so who tells them they don't have the right to talk about [ __ ] that they're not doing when that's still [ __ ] that they're seeing oh sure Ah that's powerful but the problem I have a problem when they rapping like they did it but they just R from somebody else's Vantage Point understand that but most of these artists that you've seen in the game some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I pretty firm in his in in his music that I'm a believer that he did some of that [ __ ] he can talk about just me I don't know you possibilities are possibilities but some things just seem correct you know mean I can't tell you for sure cuz it is music you know what I mean but some things seem correct [ __ ] man bro you got to come out to man you got to you know we haven't had a proper uh hip-hop concert in sa like since 50 N since you are come on back to the city does concerts man ah those are for old people empd the bigest artist in South Africa right now Hip-Hop Hip-Hop uh there's a guy called nastyc but nesty came here he doesn't know know you f poopa who's that nah F poopa Nigerian West African artist massive he used to pop not now for real still massive bigger than like ber boyo still it's different type of music oh stadiums is 50 60,000 people like what is this following this gu what's his name f poop F poop I don't know him bro he's from Nigeria yeah yeah yeah yeah Nigerian Prett pretty big yeah humongous bro how big was was 50 Cent bro like during his Reign man like how big was 50 Cent [ __ ] retardedly big it wasn't nothing bigger than him was Drake before Drake was dring he was oh [ __ ] he did it like it was like 50 was on a run that he never even touched the club bro like [ __ ] never seen him in the club he only did Arenas I never knew too many artist that just did that you dig like the [ __ ] was super massive every [ __ ] Rec he came out with was was going platinum and I'm just telling you the facts you heard and I always got to speak factual no matter how I feel about a person the [ __ ] was on top Super on top it was no way to knock him off his d i remember Jay-Z dropped the diss track on you did you guys resolve that beef I think you were not happy with him as the president of De jam oh man um we never really had a beef um we had some feuds back and forth through the situations that were going on over other people um and me being who I am I had to hold my ground um but to know that he actually talked about me in multiple of his records mean that I was pretty big in his eyes you dig true true cuz I didn't hear him talk about too many people in his career and if he did talk you talk about you on the record that meant something you know what I mean and I was then so for me that I I I took that like what it was like you dig like yeah J doesn't respond to take the time out to say my name you heard if I'm if I'm not that big of a deal to you you would never ever a am I am I right talk about a person you heard true it's it's a form of respect and ackowledge 100% am I right in saying a lot of [ __ ] are scared of Jay-Z bro cuz we interviewed Dam Ian I don't I don't know I'm not a lot of [ __ ] you heard I'm a man so I couldn't I I couldn't tell you that you heard I ain't scared to nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that that that dentist yeah the dentist got me there you heard you can walk in you could walk we about to fight right now you a dentist walk in you got it you got it like you got it bow down you got it I don't want no smoke let me get out of here M fact word Jimmy before you go man uh what beefs did you have so you had something beef with Jay-Z right no man I just told you we had some feuds stemming from that's beef bro stemming from other things that going on um my problem like it was all part of Us coming up in the game and things were happening we were signing a Rockefeller cam was sign a Rockefeller actually then we got opportunity to Diplomat records um the split between uh Jay and Dame came um artist took sides some took the J side some took the the Dame side which side were you on we was on the Dame side OB Dash yeah Dame Dash that's do you think Dame Dash is misunderstood bro huh you think Dame Dash is misunderstood um too smart for his own good I get that yeah if you had the opportunity again you sometimes being the smartest person in the room could be held against you especially when you want everybody to know that you're the smartest person in the room yeah yeah yeah and I get given a second chance would you still side with Dam never you wouldn't never whoa I never signed a d at all that was no no no like sided with him took his side oh give a second chance I wouldn't have sided with none of them I would we would haveed our [ __ ] business but you learned that with age yeah you heard we had no business butting into that because it wasn't a street beef and this wasn't some [ __ ] that had to do with us ultimately we were holding our [ __ ] down and [ __ ] like that but business-wise if we would if we knew what we knew now we would let them get into that they self y'all can handle that because we got records to put out and music to make and we got our own record label to run you dig and this my hinder what we got going on by us taking sides and that's why I tell people now even when people seeing all the Diplomat [ __ ] like y bro don't don't get in to taking sides with me and my bro because you never know how that might end up and if it end up to a point where we do figure out our situation then I'm looking at you funny now me and you got forever you heard you dig and there are plenty of people that did that and plenty people that didn't and plenty people that showed the same amount of love that he showed to me that it showed to cam when we were going through our imaginary situations and [ __ ] like that cuz it's all imaginary when you know you can figure figure it out now it's a saying that like don't just be in people's business when especially when they've beef and take sides cuz and I I had to learn that a lot I had took me a long time to learn that because of how we come up in the Cod that they supposedly treat us in teach us in the street and [ __ ] like that but sometimes that's not the smallest thing that we can do and then uh push a t did you ever beef with him nah that was some [ __ ] that we was on record um he did some [ __ ] I did some [ __ ] you dig that was it I never followed that I didn't even know did you know there's a pusher T me I ain't got no just know I don't know I know you're from I know you're from Africa and [ __ ] like that but people don't play with me yeah for real and I don't I don't play with people this ain't no playground you heard this is the street it's two ways don't get caught up in a yellow line it's going to be hard to cross bro yeah you heard no I don't trust me I'm from Africa but I saw what happened at the airport so that [ __ ] escalated yeah [ __ ] that was self-defense man God yo bro it looked like that guy was just messing with you bro I wish that could have never happened cuz I was trying to avoid that by all cause but [ __ ] happened sometime man you dig and definitely not not going to allow anybody do anything to me at all bro when I saw that video right like I don't know I just met you today right but I saw when you lifted that guy from the escalator threw him down he literally just went on survival mode bro like it's like there was a button that you switched on and you just like I don't [ __ ] care but yeah yeah no I mean no that's a button that I choose not to push you heard yeah exactly like you can go there quickly I choose to show restraint for a lot of reasons in my life and sometimes it's hard to you dig but where I'm at in life right now I choose positivity or all the other things that come out my way because I know how it is to be negative I was once that negative person that was very aggressive and ready to do something to to you over the minimal alistic of things and [ __ ] like that so I'm blessed to be here to try to be able to show restraint and so so the guy so the guy at the airport you guys on the same plane yeah we on the same plane so you don't have a private jet no I don't have a private jet I'm not a rich man come on Jimmy you made so much money over the years but anyway so you're in the plane what's he what's this guy saying to you like um I don't know man just [ __ ] happens I know just the started from the plane just know that what you see happen on so it starts on the plane you restrain yourself you're like all right cool my dog say whatever you want to say yeah when he gets to the airport I mean the escalator that's when I think he starts hitting you or something right yeah something like that he tried to do something like that and that's what we see man but like I said this is not something that I want to glorify it's not you think he knows who you are um if if he didn't he know now no I'm I'm sorry see sorry cuz some people just provoke I believe he was he was trolling a little bit and things like that which is cool you I mean I'm if if you in New York not time 10 you do know who I am so you know I believe it was a bit of that but God bless man hopefully that they all right hopefully the old man um cool you dig like are you spiritual cuz you mentioned God a lot man yeah I'm very spiritual very spiritual very spiritual I've been my whole family is spiritual and what does that mean in an American sense cuz um us as African for me it means a lot of different things um I was told what the church was as a young age as they drag you to church every Sunday your grandmother your moms and your family and things like that and you really don't understand what that is from that young but as you get older and you go through certain things and you make it through certain things you understand that there is a God and everybody has a relationship with their God different and sometimes going to church doesn't mean that you love your God any less or he loves you any less you dig and you say spiritual I'm very spiritual I say my prayers as much as I can sometime two three four times in a day you dig man doesn't take away from what I do and who I am because I'm still in the line for everything else everybody is in but I know every day that I'm able to wake up and every day I'm able to make a dollar and every day I'm able to keep living the life that I am I should be thankful you heard cuz that's not just me that's a higher vibration that's definitely a God you dig and I'm well aware that I've escaped many things in life that Lord knows I should not be here but then again I should be here cuz he put here for a reason he gives his toughest battles to his strongest people what the Bible say you heard and I've made it through some very tough battles which are minimal to some of the people that I had next to me in their battles you know what I mean so it's like we all got to figure it out Jim Jones thank you so much man and thanks to God for bringing you here man definitely I appreciate for making time for us bro thank you man we appreciate you tired when you got you I appreciate the fact that you could even make it man got any last question yeah man bro you said you've gone through some tough battles and you mentioned how you lost your dad at like 26 but also that you you pretty much raised yourself from the age of 15 you know from that relationship or lack of it like has it affected how you father your children 100% this made me the best father I could be but me my relationship with my father was always a great one even though he wasn't there because every day he wasn't I love them even more I wasn't one of them kids that was bitter you dig I understand that everybody went through something and at that age what he was going through there was a lot of drug addiction and I knew that from a very young age I understood what drugs was and how they were tearing up my family I never held that against my father and I was just blessed able to get back with him before he passed away so he could see that his son was making something out of himself at that time I was already signed to her uh we think we just got the Rockefeller deal so it was a very big deal for me to be able to get back with my father to show him that me somebody that you should be proud of and I know him looking down right now got be like damn I did that so you know and that's how I feel but then in turn TR here my son I don't you know I mean like I just you know mean I pride myself on making sure that I I turned my son into somebody that was way better than I could ever be you oh man yeah that's my guy shout out to you man is your son still wearing Crocs to you br he's a Croc guy you heard yeah Crocs for Life bro Crocs for Life jumping out the beam with a fresh paer Crocs on I don't want to stand him Jimmy before you go your top five rappers all time my top five rappers of all you got to give us your top five bro yeah Tupac definitely Jay-Z Drake um Drake he not like us by default of course um rock cam no Eminem No No whoa not even big you from NY and not to take nothing away from him he's extremely nice it's retardedly nice when it comes to rap but I listen to artists that kind of you know I mean do something for the life that I live and kind of what I've been through and most of these artist or artist that I'm talking about people that you know what I mean like [ __ ] better stop hating on my boy Drake all of a sudden all this Drake land I get it I get it you ain't like us let's not do that let's not forget the 15 years he been spanking [ __ ] around this [ __ ] all all all over this [ __ ] all the alley he been giving most of these artists that are now seeming to be turning on them let's you know let's not some of them gave him their best hits let's not forget the big picture here and [ __ ] like but what the hip-hop culture and this game is built on competition so I yeah but what is he with it you heard you better put your best foot forward but what has Drake given back to the culture oh that you so love here we go um what is he giving back to the culture I seen him take a lot of people on tour and turn them even richer than they already was I I seen him give a lot of people hits that they would have never had if he wouldn't have got on a record things for the culture that wouldn't have happened in turn records that we would have never knew about him to record that the culture love and things like that I mean he's not from here Canada from the hood I don't believe he owes America too much but the monster that give back to where he's from maybe we should ask about what has he done in Canada giving back to his community as opposed to what he giving back to the culture of the United States when this is not where he's from and I think that's the Divide right there now if we talk about what he's done in Canada and if it's not up to par then maybe we can talk about oh you dig but that's I think that's for the people of Canada you dig like yeah cuz but it's the people of America in the hood who made him of course you heard about but that he didn't grw up in America he didn't grew up here you heard so if you was an artist from Africa yeah like boy yeah do you think bnab boy has responsibility what do Niger of United stes n I'm taking it back home bro super duper big yes but that's what people then will call a culture vulture cuz you come into a space you know do what the people of that space do benefit from them is is is you understand what we doing like it's bro it's not because he's not take so he's not taking benab boy is Nigerian it's a Nigerian culture that is now popular in America so Drake took an American culture and enriched himself but what he's saying is that he doesn't owe anything to America cuz he's not from yet right okay right yeah I mean [ __ ] he's got no obligation Fair argument he got no obligation Fair argument yeah like he lived if he lived like I don't I don't that's how I see it you heard like that's how I see it you dig but all these [ __ ] we talking about are filthy filthy filthy rich off the opinions of men you heard what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never but what I'm just trying to tell you is how this game is played yeah you heard yeah geez man the more we talk the more they get paid the loser still gets paid too if there is a loser I don't think there's a loser when they all getting Millions off of this [ __ ] I don't think I mean like and I understand end all be all in the whole circle of it but I'm I've been in this [ __ ] for so long I'm miss you can see the politics of really get you to understand of what's really going on and [ __ ] like that this [ __ ] don't pay me a dollar to talk about it yeah hey man how tight you with Joe Bon he calls us those African guys with numbers oh yeah yeah yeah Jo this my guy buts what's up man he cool yeah he's an instigator definely know how to get under people's skin yeah I've known Joan for so long [ __ ] like that um I'm proud of him put himself in his position a whole new Lane to make a shitload of money um where it stem from the culture this what I'm talking about all the ancillary things that you need to get going on if are a artist of some type of success you got to use that to get where you want look at Joe used his startom and rap no matter what it was to able to finesse a whole new Lane of podcasting that true he's pretty big in damn near one of the forefathers of it from our culture right y'all started before him or after him we started after him but now we have more numbers than him hey doesn't matter no numbers do matter I mean no J and get num I'm cool with that but you won't be never be the considered the forefather of this whole no no no no no no no you dig 100% yeah it's Jo Joan numbers is cool I'm cool with that you get paid and I know what's a race you might be number one you heard yeah yeah but you still never be the forefather always going to have that under him like I've created this Lane for your how I feel about Ling hip hop yeah of course I got that under my belt that's mine y can never say that was yours at all yeah okay how much money you made off of it and [ __ ] like that at the end of the day you it's mine you heard Still My still mine so we always ask anybody any guest that we get on the show in closing what do you want to be remembered as man when it's all said and done I want I want to be remembered I want I want them to know that I gave more than I took because I was able to take a lot in my time amen just like that sh hey man I wish you put me on love and& hip-hop bro they got the African love of Hip Hop they got Jamaican love of Hip Hop they got they got any type of Love of Hip Hop we need the South African love of Hip Hop thanks Jim man shout out thank you bro I appreciate you man thank you we appreciate podcast and chill we out of here man boom peace welcome to Black excellenc do not fear for if you do just sip on some Grand and if you still do ask ourselves what would M [Music] do when they ask you do not fear for if you do just say an TV this is the the medicine of censorship this is the pill which one is that one podcast and chill	a lot I had took me a long time to learn that because of how we come up in the Cod that they supposedly treat us in teach us in the street and [ __ ] like that but sometimes that's not the smallest thing that we can do and then uh push a t did you ever beef with him nah that was some [ __ ] that we was on record um he did some [ __ ] I did some [ __ ] you dig that was it I never followed that I didn't even know did you know there's a pusher T me I ain't got no just know I don't know I know you're from I know you're from Africa and [ __ ] like that but people don't play with me yeah for real and I don't I don't play with people this ain't no playground you heard this is the street it's two ways don't get caught up in a yellow line it's going to be hard to cross bro yeah you heard no I don't trust me I'm from Africa but I saw what happened at the airport so that [ __ ] escalated yeah [ __ ] that was self-defense man God yo bro it looked like that guy was just messing with you bro I wish that could have never happened cuz I was trying to avoid that by all cause but [ __ ] happened sometime man you dig	-2	6	8	a lot I had took me a long time to learn that because of how we come up in the Cod that they supposedly treat us in teach us in the street and like that but sometimes that's not the smallest thing that we can do and then uh push a t did you ever beef with him nah that was some that we was on record um he did some I did some you dig that was it I never followed that I didn't even know did you know there's a pusher T me I ain't got no just know I don't know I know you're from I know you're from Africa and like that but people don't play with me yeah for real and I don't I don't play with people this ain't no playground you heard this is the street it's two ways don't get caught up in a yellow line it's going to be hard to cross bro yeah you heard no I don't trust me I'm from Africa but I saw what happened at the airport so that escalated yeah that was self-defense man God yo bro it looked like that guy was just messing with you bro I wish that could have never happened cuz I was trying to avoid that by all cause but happened sometime man you dig	I know you're from Africa and like that	3,6,8	0,-1,2	3	6	8	0	-1	2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr730VmL-lk	4,054	rr730VmL-lk	2024-06-27 00:00:00	like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano no well Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he showed me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah just understand everybody going there my guy I understand the hate exactly what you're saying yeah bro what's his name I don't it's fine you remember those some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I ain't scared of nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that the dentist yeah dentist got me there what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never [Music] [Music] yo Jimmy you do not look like you want to be here bro like someone forced you to be it's like you have to do that par they're the biggest podcast in Africa you have to be there I never look like I want to be nowhere man you got to part of me but congratulations to yall having the biggest podcast in Africa that that that's very big Africa being one of the biggest continents in the world a lot of people over there shut up man why you so tired bro crazy weekend I've been working all weekend shows different states traveling Planes Trains automobiles you know how I be a little bit too much partying yeah road kill it's tough but what's up how y'all feeling I'm good bro I literally saw um I saw your video uh yesterday for your new single the one you shot in Miami two turn temp yeah yeah how you feel about it bro that [ __ ] is lit man looks like our Vibe bro cuz we've been to Miami myself and and my partner but we never like experienced the Miami night life we were playing in Florida yeah we're DJing in Florida but two South Africans like the diaspora then West Palm Beach as well yeah DJ also yeah like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano what it's a genre it's called a piano no no cuz I'm a piano even you heard like you saw he did the whole Keys thing it has nothing to do with the piano that's where it started but has nothing to do with it these days when when I met charlot man he said the exact same thing he's like oh so you're a podcaster I'm like yeah and then you DJs I'm like no I play I'm a Pian like you're a Pianist man you one talented [ __ ] n it's a genre of music man what kind of genre is that like it's like slowed down house music with a lot of s that African influence that's the only way I can describe it so it's a it's a mix of a marriage house yeah a marriage of house music which originated here at Chicago and stuff and then we slowed it down created a sub genre called guo where guys were sort of rapping but very minimalist raps called guo then the kids were born like in the 2000s late '90s then created a whole meshup of those two genres and it's called Piano cuz a a lot of Americans think it's um afro beats it's not afro beats yeah a lot of the hence I avoided saying afro beats cuz AFR beats is from Nigeria and amap piano is far from afro beat afro beat borrows from am piano now where is amap piano originated from South Africa from the hoods from the Cassis yeah but when I when I was looking at your video bro uh the only thing in my mind was like bro what's a night like out with Jim Jones CU that [ __ ] look lit there [ __ ] everywhere bro um please please describe a night out in Miami with Jim so let's say we going to Miami right now I mean some nice are better than others but been doing it so long it's kind of like the the bare minimum for us to do in Miami just having fun but it still work at the same time like every every I'm I'm not just going out partying for no reason ni like that was we knew what we was kind of getting into we wanted to film a video so we knew we was going to ramp it up a bit take it to the to the highest form going crazy as we could but that actually happened to fall on a big weekend um and one of my dudes was celebrating so everything kind of happened for a reason but yeah Miami could take you for take you for a few a few trips man like okay so so so me and you we get in the car right I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm in Miami I hate you cuz you got a house there you stay there right yeah I got I got I got cribs there so I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm by the strip you know that Miami strip right yeah yeah yeah I mean see that's the thing about Miami when you come to visit Miami that's where people are know at like the strip and things like that I guess stand by Collins and ocean driveing all that people that live there don't really do the strip like that like you just you dig people congregate usually at night time and all the spots that usually go on down there um okay so we got security obviously you got to roll around with security right um yeah I mean that' be the safest thing for me to do so we get out the cut with security when you get to the bouncers are they letting us in cuz it's Jim Jones or are they checking our IDs cuz they've been checking our IDs just to buy beer here bro Che ID everywhere yeah everywhere yeah no I I don't think I produced my ID in since I was a teenager at clubs but yeah you won't need your ID when you with me so we walking in right yeah we going to get in oh do we have a section do we they going to give us a section VIP yeah they going to give us a section we going to get some bottles and let the night ensue got this thing called Power Hour you go to the club maybe like 2:45 to 3:45 in and out no sweat so what's the what's the purpose of that exercise the Power Hour yeah like why would you be in the cloud for an hour why would I be in a club for 4 hours it's Fu I mean I've been part I've been partying since I've been 14 I've been making money to party since I've been 18 I'm kind of burnt out so at this point I try to wait till the club is at the most popping or lest moment which is usually that hour right there and I get to enjoy everything that happened tonight and leave out of there and not be all burnt out what what does your wife say bro cuz you're married man you're surrounded by all these girls like you know I mean I'm going to worry about the women yeah is minimal to the money worry about the money more than anything so so a woman doesn't like give you grief when you come home I yeah you get you get grief all the time if you in a relationship no matter what you do if you had a job on Wall Street you get home you're going to get grief no around it you heard yeah there's women everywhere unless you work in the LGBT Club then you know I mean even there you still going to go home and get like it's no way around it you're going to get you know I mean like yeah so you've never had like been home and you had to explain like yo no man I was just doing music video it's just work like I don't know that good you going to explain yourself in every relationship and things like that I got a good woman at home who understands a job I have and things like that so for the most part but for the most part I'm a very responsible respectable person when when I'm in the streets and when I do have to interact with females and things like that yeah anyway H ladies and gentlemen welcome to another special edition of podcasting chill so CU yeah I am here we're chilling with the [ __ ] Legend Kings of Harlem please make some noise for Jim Jones Jim I gotta say bro I gotta say bro I'm going to be honest with you when I find that your name was GMO geloo gelo I'm like I'm like Jim Jones losing some G points here man what the [ __ ] is that I'm Puerto Rican and a rubian my pops is Puerto Rican the word gelo means William in English is a Spanish Spanish name cuz you know what I was thinking I was thinking that guy who does the show late night you know the short guy who does like the interviews with um this late night comedian man what are the late night shows oh man not uh bad with these oh gosh the late night guy bro uhri or something not Corin O'Brien no not Trevor Noah the other American guy man like uh old new no he's like jimm Kimel Jimmy Kimel jimy he's got that he's got that short guy his name is julo oh I don't I don't I don't got got me messed up I don't even really watch TV like that bro okay I'll be out chasing the money I ain't even got time to do that and if and if I do got some time I'm trying to get a little bit of rest or I'm thinking about money [ __ ] is crucial out here right now you better get to your dollar a lot of [ __ ] about to happen and if you ain't got no coins boy you going to be [ __ ] up you ever been to uh Puerto Rico yeah I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times yeah but business not for the Heritage part of it so like you don't know where like your your your parents were at Familiar of the place where my father's from but I never really got to do the whole go to give with my family understand the roots understand you know I mean like I didn't get to get to that part of it but I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times you find like that's important like to know you it's definitely important I had this um I did an interview not too long ago about um how important the roots are and get to know where my family from know I mean so we'll start to do that pretty soon so so so your dad you know you know your dad right yeah he's passed away oh okay God bless rest in peace what happened to him he passed away yeah like was it um medical thing or yeah natural causes oh damn like when you young or um maybe when I was uh 23 24 oh damn bro SED to hear that man maybe 26 right before my son passed right before my God bless right before my son Bor bro but you like 47 right now I look good for 47y old man no homo you know what I mean thank you very much like what was what's keeping you looking so good is it the yoga yeah a lot of yoga a lot of Pilates I stay in shape um I'm very uh very big on Fitness um work out like five six times a week um it's one of the best ways to stay young and have better chances of living a long life is that why you do it or maybe there's other purpose like you know a lot of people are in gym for their mental health I mean it's very it's very it's very therapeutic I will say that but my main goal is to look good of course but to give me better chances of living forever bro so how you got into rap um I don't know correct me if I'm wrong right but you used to skip church and go to the train station to to rap like no I never skipped Church to go on the train station and rap I skipped Church to go to the train station and go play video games and run the streets and do everything a bad little kid did from the streets of hollow when we was like S8 and n and things like that I don't know if you know about anything about the subway system in New York but that's the pathway system that get you to all five burrows and we definitely was on the subway which maybe we shouldn't have been but we was a little uh loose um for me rapping actually rapping didn't start later on in life to actually uh C and um they I got a deal and things like that and that was the first time me myself really thought about actually raing cuz I'll be honest with you like um dipet I don't really know much about dipet however I know about you guys individually like Cameron old boy like one of my favorite songs uh jul sna had hear that that was Cameron and Jules and jwes he both was on he both old boy and heon yeah why don't you jump on those tracks man those tracks are massive they was already done I was there for the making of both of them incredible tracks yeah and then how did dipit start start like how did you guys start the whole movement um organically kiss him Harem gr up together um talented kids Cam and Mason BL sh was they already was doing music um Everybody gradu graduated high school I didn't get to go to college they went to college they got kicked out they got kicked out they come moved in with me from that that was a uh foundation for them to D into the music you've been in the game for like 20 30 odd years right been in the game for since 1997 how would you describe the different eras of like um hip-hop right especially now cuz um obviously we all know about the Kendrick Lamar song they're not like us but I didn't know how big it was until I landed in in in America and it's like it's like a movement the video yeah it's like huge it's massive bro yeah it's a big record Kendrick did that shout out to Kendrick shout out to my boy Drake but what do you think about like the evolution of hip-hop in all the different areas you've been a part of what do you mean what do I think about it it's a great thing to be a part of something that um you could only dream of everybody doesn't get a chance to be in this game um I've been fortunate enough to be here for so many genres and errors and seen so many people come and go I've watched the smallest artist to the biggest artist who you thow will be here forever and going um I got stories for days I can tell you about um how I feel about it I feel great I feel blessed you know what I mean I feel lucky this [ __ ] don't it's not promised and for me to still be here is definitely a blessing so in the 90s what was the vibe like man like like what in the 90s as far as what in hip-hop yeah it was it was different um 90s was a great era um one of my favorite errors um that was the era we first first came outside um started to get out deal uh very aggressive era uh no social media um cell phones were just being born um everything that you seen you was something that you could grab on to um artists had to go to the towns we couldn't just get on your phone and music you had to go get you couldn't just have access to it so it was a it was it it was a hunt um you had to touch the Tails kiss babies do radio everything like it was just a different ER but who was around like during that time when you who was around like Tupac was did you like meet Tupac Tupac I didn't get to meet Tupac um Tupac passed away what 95 was that yeah right in big in '97 um no I got to see Tupac do a few times in Harlem um that was dope but um not Tupac passed away before we got to get in the record game but I've seen a lot of a lot of artists in my time from a young age to old age we were partying in clubs as teenagers before we even got a record deal and things like that like we were in clubs since high school and [ __ ] like that so any interactions with Big L he was from Harlem right yeah shouts to Big Al Big Al was definitely from Harlem um 139th NFL Big L um I was one of the Cam's uh close friends um actually put cam on a dope record that started to give uh Cam and bloodshed and and her mcgree her was already popping too but guy gave them some notice when it came to R so when you come out like who's who's popping at that time is it git is it mop D it's way before G when we came out I was like Eminem just dropped oh [ __ ] this is Slim Shady not M like Slim Shady I I remember that that was like cam had dropped and Eminem had dropped DMX had dropped Nori had dropped um Big Pun had dropped lud Chris Luda had just started coming out um Nelly Nelly down down baby yeah shouts to coola love um yeah that type of error shouts to shouts to Fat Joe shouts to Buster they was already in it uh Nas was already in it Jay start going crazy that's when he just started taking over with the 1 million 2 million 3 million 4 um yeah very competitive very edgy um lot of the big dogs um had real roots in the streets um especially in the streets of New York so that put that put a real Mystique on everything when it came to the music um all the events with topnotch um it just was a different feel man it was a heavy heavy dope boy era um this was before the drug dealers wanted to be Rappers that's when the rappers wanted to be drug dealers you know what I mean and and that Arrow was was a very dope high impact trenel and Russian it was a was a great error bro I saw an interview you did correct me if I'm wrong I might be paraphrasing but you mentioned a place called the tunnel or something where everybody would be and you guys were [ __ ] [ __ ] in the bathrooms please please describe that manest cuz a place like that couldn't exist right now bro with all this woke [ __ ] I mean yeah and the cancel cult I would say it was probably the greatest Club The Hip hopers have seen and it was during the 90s era it was the Golden Era um in New York they got you had stories about like Studio 54 in that era when everybody used all the biggest of big used to go to Studio 54 well the tunnel was what Studio 54 was to that era to our era and it didn't make so many people and nationalities and genres and just everybody was like a big pumbo all for the sake of the culture you had some of the flyest models to some of the biggest drug dealers biggest gang bangers I mean every former elicit street life you could think of was in the spot along with the biggest artists and rappers and actors and models that you could find into all athletes um it would definitely like that um and was this like per invite or just like anybody could Rock up there nah you couldn't just rock up there for this is '90s entry was like $100 first of all $100 for a club that was the first time we ever heard of it and that was a lot of money back then especially we probably started in '94 going there teenager so $100 was sto a lot of money in New York at the time sneakers wasn't even costing $100 um to get in the club you definitely had to be connected to know somebody or you had to wait on a long line that usually was a block long um they had like an Express line you could pay $100 to get on Express line that'll get you to the door quicker and then you pay your entry fee um streets was blocked off you was a big dog you was able to bring your cars down there I was able to bring like four five of them if I wanted to um yeah the club was just it was different man pull up to the door security they taking people's shoes off they searching your jacket twisting people inside out like they about to go on the Rikers Island I got to I gave security High files I never took my shoes off and not since high school I when we used go in high school we used to get our shoes taken off and things like that make you feel like you going to the cental bookings and [ __ ] like that so what gave you that clout that allowed you to bring four cars in when nobody or you had to be a big dog to bring four cars in when you could just give them a high five instead of removing your shoes and you're young by then like what gives you that CL I was a big dog since a small pup bro J yeah man what gave you those you know credentials at such a young age to suppos all these people cuz Dr Tre was there yeah you putting in four cars not removing shoes I was a good Lord Biden citizen everybody love Jim Jones even even the girls like would you just rock up they say let's go to the bathroom that's it yeah now that well yeah there was a lot of that going on they had a uh the layout was different first of all the club was a block long a whole city block um wow there was like three other four other clubs within the club or spots that look like clubs um the main floor was humongously big the DJ was like a a lifeguard Tower in the middle of the club um you go upstairs they had a VR big V PE upstairs and then go through a door it open up to the bathroom the bathroom was like a unisex Club [ __ ] had a big ass bar in the middle of the bathroom uh bunch of stalls lined up um that [ __ ] was like a hotel inside Lions cocaine everything yeah they was going down a lot of sex was going down there a lot of a lot of drugs was going down in there um yeah the tunnel was definitely uh a landmark to New York City when it comes to the clubs I I definitely um I always think about that club um it did a lot for me in my life um it gave me a lot of imagination when it came to to the culture and the things I was seeing from a young age as to where I want to be and the direction I want to go in yeah we was going there since high school so when you seeing people like Mike Tyson and all these people coming in big cheer on and just having their way as a kid go out got to go to school the next morning you you in school thinking about that [ __ ] like w man this school [ __ ] [ __ ] this school [ __ ] I need some money and I need to go to the tunnel that's all I want to [ __ ] do that's wild man now can you imagine because we in sa right we're looking at all the videos that you guys are pulling out there like we're looking at this lifestyle and then you F Track to 2024 right M and the P didy thing breaks out right I mean i' rather not even to get into that yeah just don't I rather the do I don't you know I mean like it's not it's not my business oh I mean like this you heard God bless it's too much n yeah and it's not me to have an opinion on certain things cuz I ain't perfect I've been through my own [ __ ] in life and I see a lot of people that have even this doing too much just know that I ain't perfect so I choose not to talk on certain [ __ ] that you know what I mean a lot of other people people been talking about I let them keep doing the talk and I got other [ __ ] to work on I'm trying to work on me being a better person yeah I respect I respect that man but were ever part of any gang or like you sounding like the F never hey we don't the F in South Africa man only PS I'm just playing with you yeah I've been affiliated with the bloods in New York City um ENT Tre um yeah so crazy have you ever been to sa like have you ever been to Africa or um I've been to Africa where did you go uh gaban gille damn G to perform there um I went to perform there but uh got some great friends there they actually had ran the country at the time this is before the big yeah yeah overtaking and stuff like that but I had a ball out there I got to go to an island called Pony um that was a dope experience as they took me to the jungles I got to see some of the indigenous people um it was like a a real um life Awakening like and I got to see how also the rich people live out there also like I got to see both sides like that you know what I mean it was it was a great experience I out there for like a week um I haven't been back since but yeah it was dope you never been to South Africa never been to South Africa bro so the reason why I asked that is because like yo bro like American culture has infiltrated South Africa like you can't believe like you know we got people worshiping you guys you know Jim Jones rappers and everything you so we've got rappers who rap just like you and youd say they're like Bloods and Crips but they've never they've never left sa you know cuz that's how influential uh the culture is right but from you when you see or hear that like what do you guys think like do you think is like some [ __ ] like or like leave don't don't follow the gang life you know what I mean oh as far as that is concerned um there's two sides to that this what you do as a gang member that turns it into something that becomes a crime or whatever that end but the Brotherhood part of it is what the most of us joined up for when we coming up in the hood and need that Brotherhood lean on somebody is that type of camaraderie that pretty much stood for and there's a lot of other great attributes that comes with affiliation or you becoming a part of a gang um it gets twisted up because we all come up in these urban communities and our back is against the wall we don't have no opportunities um it's very dormant uh we on top of each other so naturally testosterone testosterone wins in a lot of these situations where these kids find s in bad situations and for that I would tell people to kind of stay away from this type of life um I don't want to oppose my will we all going to experience what we going to experience but I can't tell you the consequences to this type of Lifestyle could be very dear you heard ethal a lot of people don't get to make it where I made it and Escape that lifestyle that could have put me away or could have put me in the dirt I mean so here as a Living testament to tell you that these consequences are terrible the odds on you making it out of that life in a positive manner are very slim I mean but if you are in that life and you taking it as a Brotherhood and try to uplift your brothers I know there's a lot of people around you that are doing a lot of [ __ ] that that that that that's very crazy you know what I mean if you're a part of that and you got the positive minder then you try to uplift your brother and instill some positivity within them because it's very cold out here so I've always been curious bro like so when that when you you you start getting immersed you know or Affiliated in the gang life how does that affect the conversation at home with your parents like your mom your dad and just the domestic you know Dynamics I a't grow my parents I was a grown man since I was like 15 I made my own money since I was like 16 my grandmother left me in high school man I was raising my Sisters by myself in the projects I hustle every I ever got in my life that's why music saved my life I was so grateful to be able to be next to cam and him getting a deal at such a very young age to be able to still be making money off that [ __ ] right now you were U anr for Warner uh music group yeah I was the director of anr for Warner Music Group um years ago uh shouts to Kevin L shouts to Leo Cohen for giving me the opportunity um great opportunity uh I excelled at it extremely very young with a lot of power but didn't understand what I had at hand um didn't have too many people in my corner that were telling me the things that I should have been doing with that type of position as opposed to some type of weird way be hating you know I mean so that's what happened but as you get older you learn you learn and you move on who did you discover while you were in that position uh I would tell you a story I I know I've helped try s uh they come to tra songs that you know today he's always in he's always in we know why no n but he was a young kid at the time and uh they were actually going to cut him from the label we had a big uh um it's like uh one of them uh some events they be doing not the talent shows the uh well was something like that all the artists had to come perform and then they pretty much didn't know that they was on a Cho and block at the time when I was an executive and and he was one of the artists that they were going to cut and I remember Kevin L specifically ask me yo what we should do with him I'm about to cut him I don't know what to do with him and when I heard him uh singing and I saw him perform I was like this is this is one artist you should keep and did that and now we all tra songs on so many dope ass records is it true you could have signed Drake yeah I had a chance to sign uh I had a chance to do business with Drake um through Allan grum blat um when I was doing business at cotch um it was a different era I didn't understand what Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he show me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah understand everybody going at my guy I understand the hate man the hate is so phenomenal it's just how this game go man this game is so tricky man these [ __ ] just like females in this game we ain't going to get into that man there's a lot of uh but wait wait wait so so with Drake like are you are you seeing him perform like try songs or like you just heard of the guy just a conversation Allan called me about signing a kid let me hear some of his music um and I was like the kid know how to rap but I don't know what to do with him his image is crazy and him couple years later heard him on a Wheezy mixtape going crazy I was like wow this kid is about to go wham inside of this business and he sure did and you're know trying to call Weezy like yo man I gotta get that kid or something n he was already signed a young money and jcole did you miss on jcole as well I could have signed J Cole bro jcole was in the studio with me every day and at that point jcole I he's he remind me of a knockoff Drake and not to say it like that but that's who he sounded like he came to my studio every day rapping to these Drake beats rapping like Drake Cadence like Drake he could rap his ass off yeah you heard yeah but it was already a drake out there he had the Caesar it was different like two lightskinn [ __ ] might not K when raing the same but you never know what you got in front of you man you dig and those are lessons I I've took with me to moving forward when I see artists and and I hate artists I always give them more than just hearing just just I got to I got to I gotta try to capture the whole picture I make sure I just don't you mean so I don't miss nothing else because I've missed a few people and I've helped a few people um gain a lot of success in in my time in this industry whether it been by me having a meeting with them or me having influence on them or you know I mean so you know and there's never like any animosity like Jake Cole or Drake never came up to be like yo you could have signed me look at me now bro I mean me and Drake is cool as [ __ ] um I see J Cole I don't think he I mean I don't think that's no he some [ __ ] he might want to keep to himself not to be like that sh the co he not that type of artist he's not a you I mean yeah you did I look I look at as we can see I want to mention an artist who like I'm really fond of like I think this guy's [ __ ] amazing musically talented everything that he touched like turned to Gold who's that uh kid k bro K Cy yeah yeah did you help him with his career yeah I birth K Cy wow J me how so bro bir them nobody would have know who K Cy was at all if I a jump on this remix record but it wasn't even remix he wasn't even a nobody like I tell a story all the time I had a inter used to work for me said he got some dudes that do videos they would like to do a video for me told them come let me see they work they show me their videos the first video they showed me was of the kid Cy record he's on the top of a roof some simple video the record sound more wavy than the opportunity for them to do a video I'm like well if you'll get me the beat to this record I Remix this record and then y'all can shoot the video to that record wow and that's what they did and then um the radio station ripped the record off of YouTube and start playing it at Hot 97 and K Cy was born bro why do you think especially about kid Cy cuz from him when I listen to music right it wasn't really no no other kid Cy record besides the one that I was on yeah man he's not in they don't play his records where I be at at all not to be funny wow bro and we listen to him like all that day and night you know remember only record I know yeah it's the only record I know unless it's like a pop record that everybody know and I and I'm even not paying attention to it but he don't his records don't get played nowhere that i' be at not like that unless I go into a different farm and that's the type of music they playing in one of these funny clubs that play fist pump music and pop music he's not into like you dig like they don't play his music in the clubs I'll be at maybe in Vegas and [ __ ] like that but that's not like they not pumping this [ __ ] in live they not pumping this [ __ ] in Atlanta they not pumping this [ __ ] down the Stafford room or you know what I mean like they I'm not saying nothing like that but I don't hear it in the strip clubs I don't hear like you know what I mean so but he's a very successful person with some of the greats like Kanye to put him in a position to win and [ __ ] like that and I think he's way more better as an actor than he is a musician and that's just my POS that's just my opinion he did I seen him in the movie uh about the race car [ __ ] where he was F the playe like he got a lot of Charisma and [ __ ] like that on on camera for what I could see and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean bro I mean for you as Jim Jones to to see these kids you're introduced to them by an intern and then to hop onto that song it's something selfless you know to just give these unknown kids an opportunity of sharing a song with you where do you think that selflessness comes from how was that unknown kid I'm still an unknown kid anytime I get an opportunity that's an opportunity I should be able to give to somebody else bro the fact that you could even come to our podcast shout out man yeah man you don't even know us exactly what you're saying yeah know us what's his name I don't it's fine you know remember those kids who who did the video for him anyway you know remember I remember like that kids that got the biggest African podcast I'm definitely going to know like them is my guys right family right there appreciate I really mean that that sincerely and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean I I bump in too many people in my life and been across too many people in my journey to actually remember everybody's name but the face and the cause and I mean BR I want to understand right the first time you came up with the concept For Love and Hip Hop where were you what was happening that um that was something like uh me and Christy she had opportunity to do uh her own reality show um and actually fell through and that kind of she was kind of she wanted to do that I can see she was eager about doing that when it fell through kind you know I mean [ __ ] with her mood and [ __ ] like that so so so so so the initial concept what was it was just Chrissy just showing like what's life the initial concept was about she had her own thing going on about a group of women that was supposed to do a reality show had nothing to do with me yeah that [ __ ] fell through she lost that opportunity to end up not going people have been begging me to do reality TV for past couple years at the time and I and you reality TV gold man I refused to do it yeah and then when that happened I was like all right I got I'll do this for you and we'll make it about you and females that have to that are involved with artist such as myself and show what the relationship side is when you're dealing with a high-profile artist and you know what I mean how so that's how that started bro and that thing became a monster super super monster like it's still big till this day bro 100% so do you have like uh ownership in that we we were link a all that you know at that time when maybe the second season we just in a position where we refuse to compromise our dignity for anyone or any dollar and sometimes it be like that you know what I mean um but ain't no stress off my back T my hat to him you no but but but we got to talk about that because you see like this podcast um it's blackowned right it's just me and a couple of other people that are involved in the podcast right and we're always striving for ownership so a lot of um Brands and investors have come to try to buy the podcast and we say know cuz like we believe in ownership and telling the story the way we want to tell it right so what went wrong in that because as a hustler I believe like that's your also end goal MH um it wasn't something that I was just a lot of different layers and [ __ ] like that and I was too worried about doing other things and we had the opportunity to gain all ownership 50% of the whole TV show and all that but it still wasn't worth GE bro that's insane you just let go like that yeah bro it's your brain child bro there is no Love and& Hip Hop without you bro I still got a brain you heard yeah those are for people that don't have a brain that lack creativity people that steal things from you lack what you don't have remember that yeah whether it's money whether it's creativity whatever it is they lack what you don't have ultimately they steal from you you heard I mean we didn't even know C beef if it wasn't for Love and& Hip Hop right yeah yeah yeah definitely yeah bro you gave birth to so many many people man like VI their careers that's the god in me that's why I'm always going to be good yeah she man so any other shows that you're working on like in the pipeline that you want to do I was telling you I working on um a late night show a late night um a late night variety show live in studio audience hopefully we'll be filming in about 40 to 60 days um beautiful concept I do I do believe people going enjoy the show um like I was saying I can't do um a podcast is too personal for me and [ __ ] like that and me watching these podcasts um dealing with these artists me myself don't have the temperament for it you know what I mean um I [ __ ] I T my hat to y'all to have to deal with artists such as myself cuz you never know what type of mood they going to come in you know what I me some of these artists have a air to them where they feel like they better than most and they would never sit and have tea with the with the maintenance guy you heard me myself me going to maintenance guy going to smoke blunts before I get on stage [Music] I live my life and and and currently uh before we let you go man what do you think about the state of hip-hop cuz like statistically numbers wise it's not looking good man e beats has played all over New York now there's now the pianos this is this is what they want you to do this is how to get us to go against each other it's all under the same culture umbrella it's afro music ref I'm a piano I'm a piano explain that what do you mean by that bro yeah R&B what do you mean by that ultimately it's all from under the same origin and creativity of the same person from the same colors is all our thing n but let's be honest Jimmy hip-hop hasn't involved bro when I was listening to Eminem what do you want mean what do you mean hip-hop hasn't evolved you guys are still rapping about the same stuff it don't you you missing the point of what hip-hop is yeah hip-hop has evolved to a point that you can be the music genres that you're told them about can be noticed you think that if there was a hip hop that I'm a piano would be noticed or afro Beach would be noticed think about that and not to take nothing away from y because you always have culture and yes that music might be big within the continent of Africa yeah right but to cross over to American Fame and commercialism you don't think that the hip-hop culture played a big part in that that's that that's a different argument now you want to have a different argument I'm telling you the semantics of where we going with this you dig like you talking about uh the the hip hop music is damn percentage that's how they want us to think when it's really not cuz we all uplifting each other you heard you think that the country music that's going on in the black people winning is not because of the hip-hop culture no no no I think no one is disputing that however so then when you say hip-hop numbers are down and damn for who no I'm talking about I know what you're talking about but damn for who tell me who it's down for because I'm still making the money I make yeah I do believe there's still a lot of artist that's making a shitload of money that they make I don't think it went down for them yeah you know what I mean but I understand what you're talking about they say the numbers and then rock and roll genre might be up like I don't really you heard like that's I'm into this business you heard and it's always up for us you heard cuz this is a business we make money out of nothing it's never a downside to this okay and and that's why I'm saying I think we're having two different conversations here cuz the conversation I'm having is I'm having I'm having right is that in as much as he's saying yeah the numbers are down because they orchestrated and whatever I get that right but also that's why I asked do you think Hip-hop has evolved cuz I grew up on hip-hop right and the same things um quote unquote you guys were rapping about in the '90s how can hipop how can hip hop evolved in the same thing that Africa been Africa been going on since the '90s aren't y going still going through the same thing we are huh we are so how could the music evolve when the music ref the time ah okay get you real stories what you want us to rap about [ __ ] that that we don't have ah we talk about [ __ ] we dream about all the time that's the good The Good Life the colorin the Ros we talk about but the truth is how the music going to change when our position hasn't changed when we still going through the same [ __ ] we've been going through okay and y'all being from Africa should know that more than we know that yeah that's facts that's fact go about that own Cod yeah yeah yeah yeah you know are bro that's a valid fact but how do you feel man like you've come from an era where you guys when what you you said in your raps I mean evolved as far as dition as far as what we rap about cuz we still stuck in the same place but as a business it has evolved to one of big time yeah yeah biggest big time money making machines you can attach yourself to this made some of the richest individuals whether you're the rapper the lawyer the executive like that's true you know what I mean the supply chain but then I think that's why you know when you get the likes of a wz coming out and Kendrick Lamar they stand out like a sore thumb because like they are rapping about but that's what music is about to stand out for those who that want to look like everybody they don't get nowhere why you think Dip set was so successful sucessful yeah because we stood out on purpose we don't want to look like or H or sound like no one else m we want yall to above all see us when we walk in the building and hear us when we get on that [ __ ] mic you heard why would you guys the diplomats I never like where did that come from the diplomats the name the diplomats yeah we diplomats oh ah okay that sounded cool no we diplomats we are Harlem diplomats and we take it as that you heard we go to the Embassy when we land in countries you heard all right okay okay okay I I sort of get that bro so in the business and how you still making money right now like from music just like how is it royalties damn you asking a lot of questions bro no I want to know bro I'm so I've got so many questions I want to ask you bro I'll tell you this music is supposed to be used so you can make as much ancillary dollars as you can because the music ain't promised everybody 15 minutes of fame ranges from a small 15 minutes of fame to a run like we having within that minute the 15 minutes the fame you better do a lot of other things to secure your bag because music is not going to be thing you be able to get paid off forever unless you're the DRS and the J that's not even 1% that's you know what I mean so you think about that so you better have some hustle you better learn how to you better have some business sense you better put your credit in order you better do a few things to secure you if you are artist [ __ ] leverage powerful penda yeah man how do you feel man when these kids these days wrap up about you know trying to act tough and rap about stuff they never done like you guys red about stuff you lived I mean I do believe a lot of these kids are going through a lot of [ __ ] that we went through and then a lot of the kids are talking about [ __ ] that they see but most of the kids are all growing up in the same community that all of that [ __ ] is going on so who tells them they don't have the right to talk about [ __ ] that they're not doing when that's still [ __ ] that they're seeing oh sure Ah that's powerful but the problem I have a problem when they rapping like they did it but they just R from somebody else's Vantage Point understand that but most of these artists that you've seen in the game some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I pretty firm in his in in his music that I'm a believer that he did some of that [ __ ] he can talk about just me I don't know you possibilities are possibilities but some things just seem correct you know mean I can't tell you for sure cuz it is music you know what I mean but some things seem correct [ __ ] man bro you got to come out to man you got to you know we haven't had a proper uh hip-hop concert in sa like since 50 N since you are come on back to the city does concerts man ah those are for old people empd the bigest artist in South Africa right now Hip-Hop Hip-Hop uh there's a guy called nastyc but nesty came here he doesn't know know you f poopa who's that nah F poopa Nigerian West African artist massive he used to pop not now for real still massive bigger than like ber boyo still it's different type of music oh stadiums is 50 60,000 people like what is this following this gu what's his name f poop F poop I don't know him bro he's from Nigeria yeah yeah yeah yeah Nigerian Prett pretty big yeah humongous bro how big was was 50 Cent bro like during his Reign man like how big was 50 Cent [ __ ] retardedly big it wasn't nothing bigger than him was Drake before Drake was dring he was oh [ __ ] he did it like it was like 50 was on a run that he never even touched the club bro like [ __ ] never seen him in the club he only did Arenas I never knew too many artist that just did that you dig like the [ __ ] was super massive every [ __ ] Rec he came out with was was going platinum and I'm just telling you the facts you heard and I always got to speak factual no matter how I feel about a person the [ __ ] was on top Super on top it was no way to knock him off his d i remember Jay-Z dropped the diss track on you did you guys resolve that beef I think you were not happy with him as the president of De jam oh man um we never really had a beef um we had some feuds back and forth through the situations that were going on over other people um and me being who I am I had to hold my ground um but to know that he actually talked about me in multiple of his records mean that I was pretty big in his eyes you dig true true cuz I didn't hear him talk about too many people in his career and if he did talk you talk about you on the record that meant something you know what I mean and I was then so for me that I I I took that like what it was like you dig like yeah J doesn't respond to take the time out to say my name you heard if I'm if I'm not that big of a deal to you you would never ever a am I am I right talk about a person you heard true it's it's a form of respect and ackowledge 100% am I right in saying a lot of [ __ ] are scared of Jay-Z bro cuz we interviewed Dam Ian I don't I don't know I'm not a lot of [ __ ] you heard I'm a man so I couldn't I I couldn't tell you that you heard I ain't scared to nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that that that dentist yeah the dentist got me there you heard you can walk in you could walk we about to fight right now you a dentist walk in you got it you got it like you got it bow down you got it I don't want no smoke let me get out of here M fact word Jimmy before you go man uh what beefs did you have so you had something beef with Jay-Z right no man I just told you we had some feuds stemming from that's beef bro stemming from other things that going on um my problem like it was all part of Us coming up in the game and things were happening we were signing a Rockefeller cam was sign a Rockefeller actually then we got opportunity to Diplomat records um the split between uh Jay and Dame came um artist took sides some took the J side some took the the Dame side which side were you on we was on the Dame side OB Dash yeah Dame Dash that's do you think Dame Dash is misunderstood bro huh you think Dame Dash is misunderstood um too smart for his own good I get that yeah if you had the opportunity again you sometimes being the smartest person in the room could be held against you especially when you want everybody to know that you're the smartest person in the room yeah yeah yeah and I get given a second chance would you still side with Dam never you wouldn't never whoa I never signed a d at all that was no no no like sided with him took his side oh give a second chance I wouldn't have sided with none of them I would we would haveed our [ __ ] business but you learned that with age yeah you heard we had no business butting into that because it wasn't a street beef and this wasn't some [ __ ] that had to do with us ultimately we were holding our [ __ ] down and [ __ ] like that but business-wise if we would if we knew what we knew now we would let them get into that they self y'all can handle that because we got records to put out and music to make and we got our own record label to run you dig and this my hinder what we got going on by us taking sides and that's why I tell people now even when people seeing all the Diplomat [ __ ] like y bro don't don't get in to taking sides with me and my bro because you never know how that might end up and if it end up to a point where we do figure out our situation then I'm looking at you funny now me and you got forever you heard you dig and there are plenty of people that did that and plenty people that didn't and plenty people that showed the same amount of love that he showed to me that it showed to cam when we were going through our imaginary situations and [ __ ] like that cuz it's all imaginary when you know you can figure figure it out now it's a saying that like don't just be in people's business when especially when they've beef and take sides cuz and I I had to learn that a lot I had took me a long time to learn that because of how we come up in the Cod that they supposedly treat us in teach us in the street and [ __ ] like that but sometimes that's not the smallest thing that we can do and then uh push a t did you ever beef with him nah that was some [ __ ] that we was on record um he did some [ __ ] I did some [ __ ] you dig that was it I never followed that I didn't even know did you know there's a pusher T me I ain't got no just know I don't know I know you're from I know you're from Africa and [ __ ] like that but people don't play with me yeah for real and I don't I don't play with people this ain't no playground you heard this is the street it's two ways don't get caught up in a yellow line it's going to be hard to cross bro yeah you heard no I don't trust me I'm from Africa but I saw what happened at the airport so that [ __ ] escalated yeah [ __ ] that was self-defense man God yo bro it looked like that guy was just messing with you bro I wish that could have never happened cuz I was trying to avoid that by all cause but [ __ ] happened sometime man you dig and definitely not not going to allow anybody do anything to me at all bro when I saw that video right like I don't know I just met you today right but I saw when you lifted that guy from the escalator threw him down he literally just went on survival mode bro like it's like there was a button that you switched on and you just like I don't [ __ ] care but yeah yeah no I mean no that's a button that I choose not to push you heard yeah exactly like you can go there quickly I choose to show restraint for a lot of reasons in my life and sometimes it's hard to you dig but where I'm at in life right now I choose positivity or all the other things that come out my way because I know how it is to be negative I was once that negative person that was very aggressive and ready to do something to to you over the minimal alistic of things and [ __ ] like that so I'm blessed to be here to try to be able to show restraint and so so the guy so the guy at the airport you guys on the same plane yeah we on the same plane so you don't have a private jet no I don't have a private jet I'm not a rich man come on Jimmy you made so much money over the years but anyway so you're in the plane what's he what's this guy saying to you like um I don't know man just [ __ ] happens I know just the started from the plane just know that what you see happen on so it starts on the plane you restrain yourself you're like all right cool my dog say whatever you want to say yeah when he gets to the airport I mean the escalator that's when I think he starts hitting you or something right yeah something like that he tried to do something like that and that's what we see man but like I said this is not something that I want to glorify it's not you think he knows who you are um if if he didn't he know now no I'm I'm sorry see sorry cuz some people just provoke I believe he was he was trolling a little bit and things like that which is cool you I mean I'm if if you in New York not time 10 you do know who I am so you know I believe it was a bit of that but God bless man hopefully that they all right hopefully the old man um cool you dig like are you spiritual cuz you mentioned God a lot man yeah I'm very spiritual very spiritual very spiritual I've been my whole family is spiritual and what does that mean in an American sense cuz um us as African for me it means a lot of different things um I was told what the church was as a young age as they drag you to church every Sunday your grandmother your moms and your family and things like that and you really don't understand what that is from that young but as you get older and you go through certain things and you make it through certain things you understand that there is a God and everybody has a relationship with their God different and sometimes going to church doesn't mean that you love your God any less or he loves you any less you dig and you say spiritual I'm very spiritual I say my prayers as much as I can sometime two three four times in a day you dig man doesn't take away from what I do and who I am because I'm still in the line for everything else everybody is in but I know every day that I'm able to wake up and every day I'm able to make a dollar and every day I'm able to keep living the life that I am I should be thankful you heard cuz that's not just me that's a higher vibration that's definitely a God you dig and I'm well aware that I've escaped many things in life that Lord knows I should not be here but then again I should be here cuz he put here for a reason he gives his toughest battles to his strongest people what the Bible say you heard and I've made it through some very tough battles which are minimal to some of the people that I had next to me in their battles you know what I mean so it's like we all got to figure it out Jim Jones thank you so much man and thanks to God for bringing you here man definitely I appreciate for making time for us bro thank you man we appreciate you tired when you got you I appreciate the fact that you could even make it man got any last question yeah man bro you said you've gone through some tough battles and you mentioned how you lost your dad at like 26 but also that you you pretty much raised yourself from the age of 15 you know from that relationship or lack of it like has it affected how you father your children 100% this made me the best father I could be but me my relationship with my father was always a great one even though he wasn't there because every day he wasn't I love them even more I wasn't one of them kids that was bitter you dig I understand that everybody went through something and at that age what he was going through there was a lot of drug addiction and I knew that from a very young age I understood what drugs was and how they were tearing up my family I never held that against my father and I was just blessed able to get back with him before he passed away so he could see that his son was making something out of himself at that time I was already signed to her uh we think we just got the Rockefeller deal so it was a very big deal for me to be able to get back with my father to show him that me somebody that you should be proud of and I know him looking down right now got be like damn I did that so you know and that's how I feel but then in turn TR here my son I don't you know I mean like I just you know mean I pride myself on making sure that I I turned my son into somebody that was way better than I could ever be you oh man yeah that's my guy shout out to you man is your son still wearing Crocs to you br he's a Croc guy you heard yeah Crocs for Life bro Crocs for Life jumping out the beam with a fresh paer Crocs on I don't want to stand him Jimmy before you go your top five rappers all time my top five rappers of all you got to give us your top five bro yeah Tupac definitely Jay-Z Drake um Drake he not like us by default of course um rock cam no Eminem No No whoa not even big you from NY and not to take nothing away from him he's extremely nice it's retardedly nice when it comes to rap but I listen to artists that kind of you know I mean do something for the life that I live and kind of what I've been through and most of these artist or artist that I'm talking about people that you know what I mean like [ __ ] better stop hating on my boy Drake all of a sudden all this Drake land I get it I get it you ain't like us let's not do that let's not forget the 15 years he been spanking [ __ ] around this [ __ ] all all all over this [ __ ] all the alley he been giving most of these artists that are now seeming to be turning on them let's you know let's not some of them gave him their best hits let's not forget the big picture here and [ __ ] like but what the hip-hop culture and this game is built on competition so I yeah but what is he with it you heard you better put your best foot forward but what has Drake given back to the culture oh that you so love here we go um what is he giving back to the culture I seen him take a lot of people on tour and turn them even richer than they already was I I seen him give a lot of people hits that they would have never had if he wouldn't have got on a record things for the culture that wouldn't have happened in turn records that we would have never knew about him to record that the culture love and things like that I mean he's not from here Canada from the hood I don't believe he owes America too much but the monster that give back to where he's from maybe we should ask about what has he done in Canada giving back to his community as opposed to what he giving back to the culture of the United States when this is not where he's from and I think that's the Divide right there now if we talk about what he's done in Canada and if it's not up to par then maybe we can talk about oh you dig but that's I think that's for the people of Canada you dig like yeah cuz but it's the people of America in the hood who made him of course you heard about but that he didn't grw up in America he didn't grew up here you heard so if you was an artist from Africa yeah like boy yeah do you think bnab boy has responsibility what do Niger of United stes n I'm taking it back home bro super duper big yes but that's what people then will call a culture vulture cuz you come into a space you know do what the people of that space do benefit from them is is is you understand what we doing like it's bro it's not because he's not take so he's not taking benab boy is Nigerian it's a Nigerian culture that is now popular in America so Drake took an American culture and enriched himself but what he's saying is that he doesn't owe anything to America cuz he's not from yet right okay right yeah I mean [ __ ] he's got no obligation Fair argument he got no obligation Fair argument yeah like he lived if he lived like I don't I don't that's how I see it you heard like that's how I see it you dig but all these [ __ ] we talking about are filthy filthy filthy rich off the opinions of men you heard what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never but what I'm just trying to tell you is how this game is played yeah you heard yeah geez man the more we talk the more they get paid the loser still gets paid too if there is a loser I don't think there's a loser when they all getting Millions off of this [ __ ] I don't think I mean like and I understand end all be all in the whole circle of it but I'm I've been in this [ __ ] for so long I'm miss you can see the politics of really get you to understand of what's really going on and [ __ ] like that this [ __ ] don't pay me a dollar to talk about it yeah hey man how tight you with Joe Bon he calls us those African guys with numbers oh yeah yeah yeah Jo this my guy buts what's up man he cool yeah he's an instigator definely know how to get under people's skin yeah I've known Joan for so long [ __ ] like that um I'm proud of him put himself in his position a whole new Lane to make a shitload of money um where it stem from the culture this what I'm talking about all the ancillary things that you need to get going on if are a artist of some type of success you got to use that to get where you want look at Joe used his startom and rap no matter what it was to able to finesse a whole new Lane of podcasting that true he's pretty big in damn near one of the forefathers of it from our culture right y'all started before him or after him we started after him but now we have more numbers than him hey doesn't matter no numbers do matter I mean no J and get num I'm cool with that but you won't be never be the considered the forefather of this whole no no no no no no no you dig 100% yeah it's Jo Joan numbers is cool I'm cool with that you get paid and I know what's a race you might be number one you heard yeah yeah but you still never be the forefather always going to have that under him like I've created this Lane for your how I feel about Ling hip hop yeah of course I got that under my belt that's mine y can never say that was yours at all yeah okay how much money you made off of it and [ __ ] like that at the end of the day you it's mine you heard Still My still mine so we always ask anybody any guest that we get on the show in closing what do you want to be remembered as man when it's all said and done I want I want to be remembered I want I want them to know that I gave more than I took because I was able to take a lot in my time amen just like that sh hey man I wish you put me on love and& hip-hop bro they got the African love of Hip Hop they got Jamaican love of Hip Hop they got they got any type of Love of Hip Hop we need the South African love of Hip Hop thanks Jim man shout out thank you bro I appreciate you man thank you we appreciate podcast and chill we out of here man boom peace welcome to Black excellenc do not fear for if you do just sip on some Grand and if you still do ask ourselves what would M [Music] do when they ask you do not fear for if you do just say an TV this is the the medicine of censorship this is the pill which one is that one podcast and chill	and definitely not not going to allow anybody do anything to me at all bro when I saw that video right like I don't know I just met you today right but I saw when you lifted that guy from the escalator threw him down he literally just went on survival mode bro like it's like there was a button that you switched on and you just like I don't [ __ ] care but yeah yeah no I mean no that's a button that I choose not to push you heard yeah exactly like you can go there quickly I choose to show restraint for a lot of reasons in my life and sometimes it's hard to you dig but where I'm at in life right now I choose positivity or all the other things that come out my way because I know how it is to be negative I was once that negative person that was very aggressive and ready to do something to to you over the minimal alistic of things and [ __ ] like that so I'm blessed to be here to try to be able to show restraint and so so the guy so the guy at the airport you guys on the same plane yeah we on the same plane so you don't have a private jet no I don't have a private jet I'm not a rich man come on Jimmy you made so much money over the years but anyway so	7	5	8	and definitely not not going to allow anybody do anything to me at all bro when I saw that video right like I don't know I just met you today right but I saw when you lifted that guy from the escalator threw him down he literally just went on survival mode bro like it's like there was a button that you switched on and you just like I don't care	yeah exactly like you can go there quickly I choose to show restraint for a lot of reasons in my life and sometimes it's hard to you dig but where I'm at in life right now I choose positivity or all the other things that come out my way because I know how it is to be negative I was once that negative person that was very aggressive and ready to do something to to you over the minimal alistic of things and like that so I'm blessed to be here to try to be able to show restraint and so so the guy so the guy at the airport you guys on the same plane yeah we on the same plane so you don't have a private jet no I don't have a private jet I'm not a rich man come on Jimmy you made so much money over the years but anyway so	6,8,5	8,4,6	6	8	5	8	4	6
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr730VmL-lk	4,054	rr730VmL-lk	2024-06-27 00:00:00	like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano no well Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he showed me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah just understand everybody going there my guy I understand the hate exactly what you're saying yeah bro what's his name I don't it's fine you remember those some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I ain't scared of nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that the dentist yeah dentist got me there what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never [Music] [Music] yo Jimmy you do not look like you want to be here bro like someone forced you to be it's like you have to do that par they're the biggest podcast in Africa you have to be there I never look like I want to be nowhere man you got to part of me but congratulations to yall having the biggest podcast in Africa that that that's very big Africa being one of the biggest continents in the world a lot of people over there shut up man why you so tired bro crazy weekend I've been working all weekend shows different states traveling Planes Trains automobiles you know how I be a little bit too much partying yeah road kill it's tough but what's up how y'all feeling I'm good bro I literally saw um I saw your video uh yesterday for your new single the one you shot in Miami two turn temp yeah yeah how you feel about it bro that [ __ ] is lit man looks like our Vibe bro cuz we've been to Miami myself and and my partner but we never like experienced the Miami night life we were playing in Florida yeah we're DJing in Florida but two South Africans like the diaspora then West Palm Beach as well yeah DJ also yeah like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano what it's a genre it's called a piano no no cuz I'm a piano even you heard like you saw he did the whole Keys thing it has nothing to do with the piano that's where it started but has nothing to do with it these days when when I met charlot man he said the exact same thing he's like oh so you're a podcaster I'm like yeah and then you DJs I'm like no I play I'm a Pian like you're a Pianist man you one talented [ __ ] n it's a genre of music man what kind of genre is that like it's like slowed down house music with a lot of s that African influence that's the only way I can describe it so it's a it's a mix of a marriage house yeah a marriage of house music which originated here at Chicago and stuff and then we slowed it down created a sub genre called guo where guys were sort of rapping but very minimalist raps called guo then the kids were born like in the 2000s late '90s then created a whole meshup of those two genres and it's called Piano cuz a a lot of Americans think it's um afro beats it's not afro beats yeah a lot of the hence I avoided saying afro beats cuz AFR beats is from Nigeria and amap piano is far from afro beat afro beat borrows from am piano now where is amap piano originated from South Africa from the hoods from the Cassis yeah but when I when I was looking at your video bro uh the only thing in my mind was like bro what's a night like out with Jim Jones CU that [ __ ] look lit there [ __ ] everywhere bro um please please describe a night out in Miami with Jim so let's say we going to Miami right now I mean some nice are better than others but been doing it so long it's kind of like the the bare minimum for us to do in Miami just having fun but it still work at the same time like every every I'm I'm not just going out partying for no reason ni like that was we knew what we was kind of getting into we wanted to film a video so we knew we was going to ramp it up a bit take it to the to the highest form going crazy as we could but that actually happened to fall on a big weekend um and one of my dudes was celebrating so everything kind of happened for a reason but yeah Miami could take you for take you for a few a few trips man like okay so so so me and you we get in the car right I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm in Miami I hate you cuz you got a house there you stay there right yeah I got I got I got cribs there so I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm by the strip you know that Miami strip right yeah yeah yeah I mean see that's the thing about Miami when you come to visit Miami that's where people are know at like the strip and things like that I guess stand by Collins and ocean driveing all that people that live there don't really do the strip like that like you just you dig people congregate usually at night time and all the spots that usually go on down there um okay so we got security obviously you got to roll around with security right um yeah I mean that' be the safest thing for me to do so we get out the cut with security when you get to the bouncers are they letting us in cuz it's Jim Jones or are they checking our IDs cuz they've been checking our IDs just to buy beer here bro Che ID everywhere yeah everywhere yeah no I I don't think I produced my ID in since I was a teenager at clubs but yeah you won't need your ID when you with me so we walking in right yeah we going to get in oh do we have a section do we they going to give us a section VIP yeah they going to give us a section we going to get some bottles and let the night ensue got this thing called Power Hour you go to the club maybe like 2:45 to 3:45 in and out no sweat so what's the what's the purpose of that exercise the Power Hour yeah like why would you be in the cloud for an hour why would I be in a club for 4 hours it's Fu I mean I've been part I've been partying since I've been 14 I've been making money to party since I've been 18 I'm kind of burnt out so at this point I try to wait till the club is at the most popping or lest moment which is usually that hour right there and I get to enjoy everything that happened tonight and leave out of there and not be all burnt out what what does your wife say bro cuz you're married man you're surrounded by all these girls like you know I mean I'm going to worry about the women yeah is minimal to the money worry about the money more than anything so so a woman doesn't like give you grief when you come home I yeah you get you get grief all the time if you in a relationship no matter what you do if you had a job on Wall Street you get home you're going to get grief no around it you heard yeah there's women everywhere unless you work in the LGBT Club then you know I mean even there you still going to go home and get like it's no way around it you're going to get you know I mean like yeah so you've never had like been home and you had to explain like yo no man I was just doing music video it's just work like I don't know that good you going to explain yourself in every relationship and things like that I got a good woman at home who understands a job I have and things like that so for the most part but for the most part I'm a very responsible respectable person when when I'm in the streets and when I do have to interact with females and things like that yeah anyway H ladies and gentlemen welcome to another special edition of podcasting chill so CU yeah I am here we're chilling with the [ __ ] Legend Kings of Harlem please make some noise for Jim Jones Jim I gotta say bro I gotta say bro I'm going to be honest with you when I find that your name was GMO geloo gelo I'm like I'm like Jim Jones losing some G points here man what the [ __ ] is that I'm Puerto Rican and a rubian my pops is Puerto Rican the word gelo means William in English is a Spanish Spanish name cuz you know what I was thinking I was thinking that guy who does the show late night you know the short guy who does like the interviews with um this late night comedian man what are the late night shows oh man not uh bad with these oh gosh the late night guy bro uhri or something not Corin O'Brien no not Trevor Noah the other American guy man like uh old new no he's like jimm Kimel Jimmy Kimel jimy he's got that he's got that short guy his name is julo oh I don't I don't I don't got got me messed up I don't even really watch TV like that bro okay I'll be out chasing the money I ain't even got time to do that and if and if I do got some time I'm trying to get a little bit of rest or I'm thinking about money [ __ ] is crucial out here right now you better get to your dollar a lot of [ __ ] about to happen and if you ain't got no coins boy you going to be [ __ ] up you ever been to uh Puerto Rico yeah I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times yeah but business not for the Heritage part of it so like you don't know where like your your your parents were at Familiar of the place where my father's from but I never really got to do the whole go to give with my family understand the roots understand you know I mean like I didn't get to get to that part of it but I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times you find like that's important like to know you it's definitely important I had this um I did an interview not too long ago about um how important the roots are and get to know where my family from know I mean so we'll start to do that pretty soon so so so your dad you know you know your dad right yeah he's passed away oh okay God bless rest in peace what happened to him he passed away yeah like was it um medical thing or yeah natural causes oh damn like when you young or um maybe when I was uh 23 24 oh damn bro SED to hear that man maybe 26 right before my son passed right before my God bless right before my son Bor bro but you like 47 right now I look good for 47y old man no homo you know what I mean thank you very much like what was what's keeping you looking so good is it the yoga yeah a lot of yoga a lot of Pilates I stay in shape um I'm very uh very big on Fitness um work out like five six times a week um it's one of the best ways to stay young and have better chances of living a long life is that why you do it or maybe there's other purpose like you know a lot of people are in gym for their mental health I mean it's very it's very it's very therapeutic I will say that but my main goal is to look good of course but to give me better chances of living forever bro so how you got into rap um I don't know correct me if I'm wrong right but you used to skip church and go to the train station to to rap like no I never skipped Church to go on the train station and rap I skipped Church to go to the train station and go play video games and run the streets and do everything a bad little kid did from the streets of hollow when we was like S8 and n and things like that I don't know if you know about anything about the subway system in New York but that's the pathway system that get you to all five burrows and we definitely was on the subway which maybe we shouldn't have been but we was a little uh loose um for me rapping actually rapping didn't start later on in life to actually uh C and um they I got a deal and things like that and that was the first time me myself really thought about actually raing cuz I'll be honest with you like um dipet I don't really know much about dipet however I know about you guys individually like Cameron old boy like one of my favorite songs uh jul sna had hear that that was Cameron and Jules and jwes he both was on he both old boy and heon yeah why don't you jump on those tracks man those tracks are massive they was already done I was there for the making of both of them incredible tracks yeah and then how did dipit start start like how did you guys start the whole movement um organically kiss him Harem gr up together um talented kids Cam and Mason BL sh was they already was doing music um Everybody gradu graduated high school I didn't get to go to college they went to college they got kicked out they got kicked out they come moved in with me from that that was a uh foundation for them to D into the music you've been in the game for like 20 30 odd years right been in the game for since 1997 how would you describe the different eras of like um hip-hop right especially now cuz um obviously we all know about the Kendrick Lamar song they're not like us but I didn't know how big it was until I landed in in in America and it's like it's like a movement the video yeah it's like huge it's massive bro yeah it's a big record Kendrick did that shout out to Kendrick shout out to my boy Drake but what do you think about like the evolution of hip-hop in all the different areas you've been a part of what do you mean what do I think about it it's a great thing to be a part of something that um you could only dream of everybody doesn't get a chance to be in this game um I've been fortunate enough to be here for so many genres and errors and seen so many people come and go I've watched the smallest artist to the biggest artist who you thow will be here forever and going um I got stories for days I can tell you about um how I feel about it I feel great I feel blessed you know what I mean I feel lucky this [ __ ] don't it's not promised and for me to still be here is definitely a blessing so in the 90s what was the vibe like man like like what in the 90s as far as what in hip-hop yeah it was it was different um 90s was a great era um one of my favorite errors um that was the era we first first came outside um started to get out deal uh very aggressive era uh no social media um cell phones were just being born um everything that you seen you was something that you could grab on to um artists had to go to the towns we couldn't just get on your phone and music you had to go get you couldn't just have access to it so it was a it was it it was a hunt um you had to touch the Tails kiss babies do radio everything like it was just a different ER but who was around like during that time when you who was around like Tupac was did you like meet Tupac Tupac I didn't get to meet Tupac um Tupac passed away what 95 was that yeah right in big in '97 um no I got to see Tupac do a few times in Harlem um that was dope but um not Tupac passed away before we got to get in the record game but I've seen a lot of a lot of artists in my time from a young age to old age we were partying in clubs as teenagers before we even got a record deal and things like that like we were in clubs since high school and [ __ ] like that so any interactions with Big L he was from Harlem right yeah shouts to Big Al Big Al was definitely from Harlem um 139th NFL Big L um I was one of the Cam's uh close friends um actually put cam on a dope record that started to give uh Cam and bloodshed and and her mcgree her was already popping too but guy gave them some notice when it came to R so when you come out like who's who's popping at that time is it git is it mop D it's way before G when we came out I was like Eminem just dropped oh [ __ ] this is Slim Shady not M like Slim Shady I I remember that that was like cam had dropped and Eminem had dropped DMX had dropped Nori had dropped um Big Pun had dropped lud Chris Luda had just started coming out um Nelly Nelly down down baby yeah shouts to coola love um yeah that type of error shouts to shouts to Fat Joe shouts to Buster they was already in it uh Nas was already in it Jay start going crazy that's when he just started taking over with the 1 million 2 million 3 million 4 um yeah very competitive very edgy um lot of the big dogs um had real roots in the streets um especially in the streets of New York so that put that put a real Mystique on everything when it came to the music um all the events with topnotch um it just was a different feel man it was a heavy heavy dope boy era um this was before the drug dealers wanted to be Rappers that's when the rappers wanted to be drug dealers you know what I mean and and that Arrow was was a very dope high impact trenel and Russian it was a was a great error bro I saw an interview you did correct me if I'm wrong I might be paraphrasing but you mentioned a place called the tunnel or something where everybody would be and you guys were [ __ ] [ __ ] in the bathrooms please please describe that manest cuz a place like that couldn't exist right now bro with all this woke [ __ ] I mean yeah and the cancel cult I would say it was probably the greatest Club The Hip hopers have seen and it was during the 90s era it was the Golden Era um in New York they got you had stories about like Studio 54 in that era when everybody used all the biggest of big used to go to Studio 54 well the tunnel was what Studio 54 was to that era to our era and it didn't make so many people and nationalities and genres and just everybody was like a big pumbo all for the sake of the culture you had some of the flyest models to some of the biggest drug dealers biggest gang bangers I mean every former elicit street life you could think of was in the spot along with the biggest artists and rappers and actors and models that you could find into all athletes um it would definitely like that um and was this like per invite or just like anybody could Rock up there nah you couldn't just rock up there for this is '90s entry was like $100 first of all $100 for a club that was the first time we ever heard of it and that was a lot of money back then especially we probably started in '94 going there teenager so $100 was sto a lot of money in New York at the time sneakers wasn't even costing $100 um to get in the club you definitely had to be connected to know somebody or you had to wait on a long line that usually was a block long um they had like an Express line you could pay $100 to get on Express line that'll get you to the door quicker and then you pay your entry fee um streets was blocked off you was a big dog you was able to bring your cars down there I was able to bring like four five of them if I wanted to um yeah the club was just it was different man pull up to the door security they taking people's shoes off they searching your jacket twisting people inside out like they about to go on the Rikers Island I got to I gave security High files I never took my shoes off and not since high school I when we used go in high school we used to get our shoes taken off and things like that make you feel like you going to the cental bookings and [ __ ] like that so what gave you that clout that allowed you to bring four cars in when nobody or you had to be a big dog to bring four cars in when you could just give them a high five instead of removing your shoes and you're young by then like what gives you that CL I was a big dog since a small pup bro J yeah man what gave you those you know credentials at such a young age to suppos all these people cuz Dr Tre was there yeah you putting in four cars not removing shoes I was a good Lord Biden citizen everybody love Jim Jones even even the girls like would you just rock up they say let's go to the bathroom that's it yeah now that well yeah there was a lot of that going on they had a uh the layout was different first of all the club was a block long a whole city block um wow there was like three other four other clubs within the club or spots that look like clubs um the main floor was humongously big the DJ was like a a lifeguard Tower in the middle of the club um you go upstairs they had a VR big V PE upstairs and then go through a door it open up to the bathroom the bathroom was like a unisex Club [ __ ] had a big ass bar in the middle of the bathroom uh bunch of stalls lined up um that [ __ ] was like a hotel inside Lions cocaine everything yeah they was going down a lot of sex was going down there a lot of a lot of drugs was going down in there um yeah the tunnel was definitely uh a landmark to New York City when it comes to the clubs I I definitely um I always think about that club um it did a lot for me in my life um it gave me a lot of imagination when it came to to the culture and the things I was seeing from a young age as to where I want to be and the direction I want to go in yeah we was going there since high school so when you seeing people like Mike Tyson and all these people coming in big cheer on and just having their way as a kid go out got to go to school the next morning you you in school thinking about that [ __ ] like w man this school [ __ ] [ __ ] this school [ __ ] I need some money and I need to go to the tunnel that's all I want to [ __ ] do that's wild man now can you imagine because we in sa right we're looking at all the videos that you guys are pulling out there like we're looking at this lifestyle and then you F Track to 2024 right M and the P didy thing breaks out right I mean i' rather not even to get into that yeah just don't I rather the do I don't you know I mean like it's not it's not my business oh I mean like this you heard God bless it's too much n yeah and it's not me to have an opinion on certain things cuz I ain't perfect I've been through my own [ __ ] in life and I see a lot of people that have even this doing too much just know that I ain't perfect so I choose not to talk on certain [ __ ] that you know what I mean a lot of other people people been talking about I let them keep doing the talk and I got other [ __ ] to work on I'm trying to work on me being a better person yeah I respect I respect that man but were ever part of any gang or like you sounding like the F never hey we don't the F in South Africa man only PS I'm just playing with you yeah I've been affiliated with the bloods in New York City um ENT Tre um yeah so crazy have you ever been to sa like have you ever been to Africa or um I've been to Africa where did you go uh gaban gille damn G to perform there um I went to perform there but uh got some great friends there they actually had ran the country at the time this is before the big yeah yeah overtaking and stuff like that but I had a ball out there I got to go to an island called Pony um that was a dope experience as they took me to the jungles I got to see some of the indigenous people um it was like a a real um life Awakening like and I got to see how also the rich people live out there also like I got to see both sides like that you know what I mean it was it was a great experience I out there for like a week um I haven't been back since but yeah it was dope you never been to South Africa never been to South Africa bro so the reason why I asked that is because like yo bro like American culture has infiltrated South Africa like you can't believe like you know we got people worshiping you guys you know Jim Jones rappers and everything you so we've got rappers who rap just like you and youd say they're like Bloods and Crips but they've never they've never left sa you know cuz that's how influential uh the culture is right but from you when you see or hear that like what do you guys think like do you think is like some [ __ ] like or like leave don't don't follow the gang life you know what I mean oh as far as that is concerned um there's two sides to that this what you do as a gang member that turns it into something that becomes a crime or whatever that end but the Brotherhood part of it is what the most of us joined up for when we coming up in the hood and need that Brotherhood lean on somebody is that type of camaraderie that pretty much stood for and there's a lot of other great attributes that comes with affiliation or you becoming a part of a gang um it gets twisted up because we all come up in these urban communities and our back is against the wall we don't have no opportunities um it's very dormant uh we on top of each other so naturally testosterone testosterone wins in a lot of these situations where these kids find s in bad situations and for that I would tell people to kind of stay away from this type of life um I don't want to oppose my will we all going to experience what we going to experience but I can't tell you the consequences to this type of Lifestyle could be very dear you heard ethal a lot of people don't get to make it where I made it and Escape that lifestyle that could have put me away or could have put me in the dirt I mean so here as a Living testament to tell you that these consequences are terrible the odds on you making it out of that life in a positive manner are very slim I mean but if you are in that life and you taking it as a Brotherhood and try to uplift your brothers I know there's a lot of people around you that are doing a lot of [ __ ] that that that that that's very crazy you know what I mean if you're a part of that and you got the positive minder then you try to uplift your brother and instill some positivity within them because it's very cold out here so I've always been curious bro like so when that when you you you start getting immersed you know or Affiliated in the gang life how does that affect the conversation at home with your parents like your mom your dad and just the domestic you know Dynamics I a't grow my parents I was a grown man since I was like 15 I made my own money since I was like 16 my grandmother left me in high school man I was raising my Sisters by myself in the projects I hustle every I ever got in my life that's why music saved my life I was so grateful to be able to be next to cam and him getting a deal at such a very young age to be able to still be making money off that [ __ ] right now you were U anr for Warner uh music group yeah I was the director of anr for Warner Music Group um years ago uh shouts to Kevin L shouts to Leo Cohen for giving me the opportunity um great opportunity uh I excelled at it extremely very young with a lot of power but didn't understand what I had at hand um didn't have too many people in my corner that were telling me the things that I should have been doing with that type of position as opposed to some type of weird way be hating you know I mean so that's what happened but as you get older you learn you learn and you move on who did you discover while you were in that position uh I would tell you a story I I know I've helped try s uh they come to tra songs that you know today he's always in he's always in we know why no n but he was a young kid at the time and uh they were actually going to cut him from the label we had a big uh um it's like uh one of them uh some events they be doing not the talent shows the uh well was something like that all the artists had to come perform and then they pretty much didn't know that they was on a Cho and block at the time when I was an executive and and he was one of the artists that they were going to cut and I remember Kevin L specifically ask me yo what we should do with him I'm about to cut him I don't know what to do with him and when I heard him uh singing and I saw him perform I was like this is this is one artist you should keep and did that and now we all tra songs on so many dope ass records is it true you could have signed Drake yeah I had a chance to sign uh I had a chance to do business with Drake um through Allan grum blat um when I was doing business at cotch um it was a different era I didn't understand what Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he show me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah understand everybody going at my guy I understand the hate man the hate is so phenomenal it's just how this game go man this game is so tricky man these [ __ ] just like females in this game we ain't going to get into that man there's a lot of uh but wait wait wait so so with Drake like are you are you seeing him perform like try songs or like you just heard of the guy just a conversation Allan called me about signing a kid let me hear some of his music um and I was like the kid know how to rap but I don't know what to do with him his image is crazy and him couple years later heard him on a Wheezy mixtape going crazy I was like wow this kid is about to go wham inside of this business and he sure did and you're know trying to call Weezy like yo man I gotta get that kid or something n he was already signed a young money and jcole did you miss on jcole as well I could have signed J Cole bro jcole was in the studio with me every day and at that point jcole I he's he remind me of a knockoff Drake and not to say it like that but that's who he sounded like he came to my studio every day rapping to these Drake beats rapping like Drake Cadence like Drake he could rap his ass off yeah you heard yeah but it was already a drake out there he had the Caesar it was different like two lightskinn [ __ ] might not K when raing the same but you never know what you got in front of you man you dig and those are lessons I I've took with me to moving forward when I see artists and and I hate artists I always give them more than just hearing just just I got to I got to I gotta try to capture the whole picture I make sure I just don't you mean so I don't miss nothing else because I've missed a few people and I've helped a few people um gain a lot of success in in my time in this industry whether it been by me having a meeting with them or me having influence on them or you know I mean so you know and there's never like any animosity like Jake Cole or Drake never came up to be like yo you could have signed me look at me now bro I mean me and Drake is cool as [ __ ] um I see J Cole I don't think he I mean I don't think that's no he some [ __ ] he might want to keep to himself not to be like that sh the co he not that type of artist he's not a you I mean yeah you did I look I look at as we can see I want to mention an artist who like I'm really fond of like I think this guy's [ __ ] amazing musically talented everything that he touched like turned to Gold who's that uh kid k bro K Cy yeah yeah did you help him with his career yeah I birth K Cy wow J me how so bro bir them nobody would have know who K Cy was at all if I a jump on this remix record but it wasn't even remix he wasn't even a nobody like I tell a story all the time I had a inter used to work for me said he got some dudes that do videos they would like to do a video for me told them come let me see they work they show me their videos the first video they showed me was of the kid Cy record he's on the top of a roof some simple video the record sound more wavy than the opportunity for them to do a video I'm like well if you'll get me the beat to this record I Remix this record and then y'all can shoot the video to that record wow and that's what they did and then um the radio station ripped the record off of YouTube and start playing it at Hot 97 and K Cy was born bro why do you think especially about kid Cy cuz from him when I listen to music right it wasn't really no no other kid Cy record besides the one that I was on yeah man he's not in they don't play his records where I be at at all not to be funny wow bro and we listen to him like all that day and night you know remember only record I know yeah it's the only record I know unless it's like a pop record that everybody know and I and I'm even not paying attention to it but he don't his records don't get played nowhere that i' be at not like that unless I go into a different farm and that's the type of music they playing in one of these funny clubs that play fist pump music and pop music he's not into like you dig like they don't play his music in the clubs I'll be at maybe in Vegas and [ __ ] like that but that's not like they not pumping this [ __ ] in live they not pumping this [ __ ] in Atlanta they not pumping this [ __ ] down the Stafford room or you know what I mean like they I'm not saying nothing like that but I don't hear it in the strip clubs I don't hear like you know what I mean so but he's a very successful person with some of the greats like Kanye to put him in a position to win and [ __ ] like that and I think he's way more better as an actor than he is a musician and that's just my POS that's just my opinion he did I seen him in the movie uh about the race car [ __ ] where he was F the playe like he got a lot of Charisma and [ __ ] like that on on camera for what I could see and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean bro I mean for you as Jim Jones to to see these kids you're introduced to them by an intern and then to hop onto that song it's something selfless you know to just give these unknown kids an opportunity of sharing a song with you where do you think that selflessness comes from how was that unknown kid I'm still an unknown kid anytime I get an opportunity that's an opportunity I should be able to give to somebody else bro the fact that you could even come to our podcast shout out man yeah man you don't even know us exactly what you're saying yeah know us what's his name I don't it's fine you know remember those kids who who did the video for him anyway you know remember I remember like that kids that got the biggest African podcast I'm definitely going to know like them is my guys right family right there appreciate I really mean that that sincerely and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean I I bump in too many people in my life and been across too many people in my journey to actually remember everybody's name but the face and the cause and I mean BR I want to understand right the first time you came up with the concept For Love and Hip Hop where were you what was happening that um that was something like uh me and Christy she had opportunity to do uh her own reality show um and actually fell through and that kind of she was kind of she wanted to do that I can see she was eager about doing that when it fell through kind you know I mean [ __ ] with her mood and [ __ ] like that so so so so so the initial concept what was it was just Chrissy just showing like what's life the initial concept was about she had her own thing going on about a group of women that was supposed to do a reality show had nothing to do with me yeah that [ __ ] fell through she lost that opportunity to end up not going people have been begging me to do reality TV for past couple years at the time and I and you reality TV gold man I refused to do it yeah and then when that happened I was like all right I got I'll do this for you and we'll make it about you and females that have to that are involved with artist such as myself and show what the relationship side is when you're dealing with a high-profile artist and you know what I mean how so that's how that started bro and that thing became a monster super super monster like it's still big till this day bro 100% so do you have like uh ownership in that we we were link a all that you know at that time when maybe the second season we just in a position where we refuse to compromise our dignity for anyone or any dollar and sometimes it be like that you know what I mean um but ain't no stress off my back T my hat to him you no but but but we got to talk about that because you see like this podcast um it's blackowned right it's just me and a couple of other people that are involved in the podcast right and we're always striving for ownership so a lot of um Brands and investors have come to try to buy the podcast and we say know cuz like we believe in ownership and telling the story the way we want to tell it right so what went wrong in that because as a hustler I believe like that's your also end goal MH um it wasn't something that I was just a lot of different layers and [ __ ] like that and I was too worried about doing other things and we had the opportunity to gain all ownership 50% of the whole TV show and all that but it still wasn't worth GE bro that's insane you just let go like that yeah bro it's your brain child bro there is no Love and& Hip Hop without you bro I still got a brain you heard yeah those are for people that don't have a brain that lack creativity people that steal things from you lack what you don't have remember that yeah whether it's money whether it's creativity whatever it is they lack what you don't have ultimately they steal from you you heard I mean we didn't even know C beef if it wasn't for Love and& Hip Hop right yeah yeah yeah definitely yeah bro you gave birth to so many many people man like VI their careers that's the god in me that's why I'm always going to be good yeah she man so any other shows that you're working on like in the pipeline that you want to do I was telling you I working on um a late night show a late night um a late night variety show live in studio audience hopefully we'll be filming in about 40 to 60 days um beautiful concept I do I do believe people going enjoy the show um like I was saying I can't do um a podcast is too personal for me and [ __ ] like that and me watching these podcasts um dealing with these artists me myself don't have the temperament for it you know what I mean um I [ __ ] I T my hat to y'all to have to deal with artists such as myself cuz you never know what type of mood they going to come in you know what I me some of these artists have a air to them where they feel like they better than most and they would never sit and have tea with the with the maintenance guy you heard me myself me going to maintenance guy going to smoke blunts before I get on stage [Music] I live my life and and and currently uh before we let you go man what do you think about the state of hip-hop cuz like statistically numbers wise it's not looking good man e beats has played all over New York now there's now the pianos this is this is what they want you to do this is how to get us to go against each other it's all under the same culture umbrella it's afro music ref I'm a piano I'm a piano explain that what do you mean by that bro yeah R&B what do you mean by that ultimately it's all from under the same origin and creativity of the same person from the same colors is all our thing n but let's be honest Jimmy hip-hop hasn't involved bro when I was listening to Eminem what do you want mean what do you mean hip-hop hasn't evolved you guys are still rapping about the same stuff it don't you you missing the point of what hip-hop is yeah hip-hop has evolved to a point that you can be the music genres that you're told them about can be noticed you think that if there was a hip hop that I'm a piano would be noticed or afro Beach would be noticed think about that and not to take nothing away from y because you always have culture and yes that music might be big within the continent of Africa yeah right but to cross over to American Fame and commercialism you don't think that the hip-hop culture played a big part in that that's that that's a different argument now you want to have a different argument I'm telling you the semantics of where we going with this you dig like you talking about uh the the hip hop music is damn percentage that's how they want us to think when it's really not cuz we all uplifting each other you heard you think that the country music that's going on in the black people winning is not because of the hip-hop culture no no no I think no one is disputing that however so then when you say hip-hop numbers are down and damn for who no I'm talking about I know what you're talking about but damn for who tell me who it's down for because I'm still making the money I make yeah I do believe there's still a lot of artist that's making a shitload of money that they make I don't think it went down for them yeah you know what I mean but I understand what you're talking about they say the numbers and then rock and roll genre might be up like I don't really you heard like that's I'm into this business you heard and it's always up for us you heard cuz this is a business we make money out of nothing it's never a downside to this okay and and that's why I'm saying I think we're having two different conversations here cuz the conversation I'm having is I'm having I'm having right is that in as much as he's saying yeah the numbers are down because they orchestrated and whatever I get that right but also that's why I asked do you think Hip-hop has evolved cuz I grew up on hip-hop right and the same things um quote unquote you guys were rapping about in the '90s how can hipop how can hip hop evolved in the same thing that Africa been Africa been going on since the '90s aren't y going still going through the same thing we are huh we are so how could the music evolve when the music ref the time ah okay get you real stories what you want us to rap about [ __ ] that that we don't have ah we talk about [ __ ] we dream about all the time that's the good The Good Life the colorin the Ros we talk about but the truth is how the music going to change when our position hasn't changed when we still going through the same [ __ ] we've been going through okay and y'all being from Africa should know that more than we know that yeah that's facts that's fact go about that own Cod yeah yeah yeah yeah you know are bro that's a valid fact but how do you feel man like you've come from an era where you guys when what you you said in your raps I mean evolved as far as dition as far as what we rap about cuz we still stuck in the same place but as a business it has evolved to one of big time yeah yeah biggest big time money making machines you can attach yourself to this made some of the richest individuals whether you're the rapper the lawyer the executive like that's true you know what I mean the supply chain but then I think that's why you know when you get the likes of a wz coming out and Kendrick Lamar they stand out like a sore thumb because like they are rapping about but that's what music is about to stand out for those who that want to look like everybody they don't get nowhere why you think Dip set was so successful sucessful yeah because we stood out on purpose we don't want to look like or H or sound like no one else m we want yall to above all see us when we walk in the building and hear us when we get on that [ __ ] mic you heard why would you guys the diplomats I never like where did that come from the diplomats the name the diplomats yeah we diplomats oh ah okay that sounded cool no we diplomats we are Harlem diplomats and we take it as that you heard we go to the Embassy when we land in countries you heard all right okay okay okay I I sort of get that bro so in the business and how you still making money right now like from music just like how is it royalties damn you asking a lot of questions bro no I want to know bro I'm so I've got so many questions I want to ask you bro I'll tell you this music is supposed to be used so you can make as much ancillary dollars as you can because the music ain't promised everybody 15 minutes of fame ranges from a small 15 minutes of fame to a run like we having within that minute the 15 minutes the fame you better do a lot of other things to secure your bag because music is not going to be thing you be able to get paid off forever unless you're the DRS and the J that's not even 1% that's you know what I mean so you think about that so you better have some hustle you better learn how to you better have some business sense you better put your credit in order you better do a few things to secure you if you are artist [ __ ] leverage powerful penda yeah man how do you feel man when these kids these days wrap up about you know trying to act tough and rap about stuff they never done like you guys red about stuff you lived I mean I do believe a lot of these kids are going through a lot of [ __ ] that we went through and then a lot of the kids are talking about [ __ ] that they see but most of the kids are all growing up in the same community that all of that [ __ ] is going on so who tells them they don't have the right to talk about [ __ ] that they're not doing when that's still [ __ ] that they're seeing oh sure Ah that's powerful but the problem I have a problem when they rapping like they did it but they just R from somebody else's Vantage Point understand that but most of these artists that you've seen in the game some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I pretty firm in his in in his music that I'm a believer that he did some of that [ __ ] he can talk about just me I don't know you possibilities are possibilities but some things just seem correct you know mean I can't tell you for sure cuz it is music you know what I mean but some things seem correct [ __ ] man bro you got to come out to man you got to you know we haven't had a proper uh hip-hop concert in sa like since 50 N since you are come on back to the city does concerts man ah those are for old people empd the bigest artist in South Africa right now Hip-Hop Hip-Hop uh there's a guy called nastyc but nesty came here he doesn't know know you f poopa who's that nah F poopa Nigerian West African artist massive he used to pop not now for real still massive bigger than like ber boyo still it's different type of music oh stadiums is 50 60,000 people like what is this following this gu what's his name f poop F poop I don't know him bro he's from Nigeria yeah yeah yeah yeah Nigerian Prett pretty big yeah humongous bro how big was was 50 Cent bro like during his Reign man like how big was 50 Cent [ __ ] retardedly big it wasn't nothing bigger than him was Drake before Drake was dring he was oh [ __ ] he did it like it was like 50 was on a run that he never even touched the club bro like [ __ ] never seen him in the club he only did Arenas I never knew too many artist that just did that you dig like the [ __ ] was super massive every [ __ ] Rec he came out with was was going platinum and I'm just telling you the facts you heard and I always got to speak factual no matter how I feel about a person the [ __ ] was on top Super on top it was no way to knock him off his d i remember Jay-Z dropped the diss track on you did you guys resolve that beef I think you were not happy with him as the president of De jam oh man um we never really had a beef um we had some feuds back and forth through the situations that were going on over other people um and me being who I am I had to hold my ground um but to know that he actually talked about me in multiple of his records mean that I was pretty big in his eyes you dig true true cuz I didn't hear him talk about too many people in his career and if he did talk you talk about you on the record that meant something you know what I mean and I was then so for me that I I I took that like what it was like you dig like yeah J doesn't respond to take the time out to say my name you heard if I'm if I'm not that big of a deal to you you would never ever a am I am I right talk about a person you heard true it's it's a form of respect and ackowledge 100% am I right in saying a lot of [ __ ] are scared of Jay-Z bro cuz we interviewed Dam Ian I don't I don't know I'm not a lot of [ __ ] you heard I'm a man so I couldn't I I couldn't tell you that you heard I ain't scared to nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that that that dentist yeah the dentist got me there you heard you can walk in you could walk we about to fight right now you a dentist walk in you got it you got it like you got it bow down you got it I don't want no smoke let me get out of here M fact word Jimmy before you go man uh what beefs did you have so you had something beef with Jay-Z right no man I just told you we had some feuds stemming from that's beef bro stemming from other things that going on um my problem like it was all part of Us coming up in the game and things were happening we were signing a Rockefeller cam was sign a Rockefeller actually then we got opportunity to Diplomat records um the split between uh Jay and Dame came um artist took sides some took the J side some took the the Dame side which side were you on we was on the Dame side OB Dash yeah Dame Dash that's do you think Dame Dash is misunderstood bro huh you think Dame Dash is misunderstood um too smart for his own good I get that yeah if you had the opportunity again you sometimes being the smartest person in the room could be held against you especially when you want everybody to know that you're the smartest person in the room yeah yeah yeah and I get given a second chance would you still side with Dam never you wouldn't never whoa I never signed a d at all that was no no no like sided with him took his side oh give a second chance I wouldn't have sided with none of them I would we would haveed our [ __ ] business but you learned that with age yeah you heard we had no business butting into that because it wasn't a street beef and this wasn't some [ __ ] that had to do with us ultimately we were holding our [ __ ] down and [ __ ] like that but business-wise if we would if we knew what we knew now we would let them get into that they self y'all can handle that because we got records to put out and music to make and we got our own record label to run you dig and this my hinder what we got going on by us taking sides and that's why I tell people now even when people seeing all the Diplomat [ __ ] like y bro don't don't get in to taking sides with me and my bro because you never know how that might end up and if it end up to a point where we do figure out our situation then I'm looking at you funny now me and you got forever you heard you dig and there are plenty of people that did that and plenty people that didn't and plenty people that showed the same amount of love that he showed to me that it showed to cam when we were going through our imaginary situations and [ __ ] like that cuz it's all imaginary when you know you can figure figure it out now it's a saying that like don't just be in people's business when especially when they've beef and take sides cuz and I I had to learn that a lot I had took me a long time to learn that because of how we come up in the Cod that they supposedly treat us in teach us in the street and [ __ ] like that but sometimes that's not the smallest thing that we can do and then uh push a t did you ever beef with him nah that was some [ __ ] that we was on record um he did some [ __ ] I did some [ __ ] you dig that was it I never followed that I didn't even know did you know there's a pusher T me I ain't got no just know I don't know I know you're from I know you're from Africa and [ __ ] like that but people don't play with me yeah for real and I don't I don't play with people this ain't no playground you heard this is the street it's two ways don't get caught up in a yellow line it's going to be hard to cross bro yeah you heard no I don't trust me I'm from Africa but I saw what happened at the airport so that [ __ ] escalated yeah [ __ ] that was self-defense man God yo bro it looked like that guy was just messing with you bro I wish that could have never happened cuz I was trying to avoid that by all cause but [ __ ] happened sometime man you dig and definitely not not going to allow anybody do anything to me at all bro when I saw that video right like I don't know I just met you today right but I saw when you lifted that guy from the escalator threw him down he literally just went on survival mode bro like it's like there was a button that you switched on and you just like I don't [ __ ] care but yeah yeah no I mean no that's a button that I choose not to push you heard yeah exactly like you can go there quickly I choose to show restraint for a lot of reasons in my life and sometimes it's hard to you dig but where I'm at in life right now I choose positivity or all the other things that come out my way because I know how it is to be negative I was once that negative person that was very aggressive and ready to do something to to you over the minimal alistic of things and [ __ ] like that so I'm blessed to be here to try to be able to show restraint and so so the guy so the guy at the airport you guys on the same plane yeah we on the same plane so you don't have a private jet no I don't have a private jet I'm not a rich man come on Jimmy you made so much money over the years but anyway so you're in the plane what's he what's this guy saying to you like um I don't know man just [ __ ] happens I know just the started from the plane just know that what you see happen on so it starts on the plane you restrain yourself you're like all right cool my dog say whatever you want to say yeah when he gets to the airport I mean the escalator that's when I think he starts hitting you or something right yeah something like that he tried to do something like that and that's what we see man but like I said this is not something that I want to glorify it's not you think he knows who you are um if if he didn't he know now no I'm I'm sorry see sorry cuz some people just provoke I believe he was he was trolling a little bit and things like that which is cool you I mean I'm if if you in New York not time 10 you do know who I am so you know I believe it was a bit of that but God bless man hopefully that they all right hopefully the old man um cool you dig like are you spiritual cuz you mentioned God a lot man yeah I'm very spiritual very spiritual very spiritual I've been my whole family is spiritual and what does that mean in an American sense cuz um us as African for me it means a lot of different things um I was told what the church was as a young age as they drag you to church every Sunday your grandmother your moms and your family and things like that and you really don't understand what that is from that young but as you get older and you go through certain things and you make it through certain things you understand that there is a God and everybody has a relationship with their God different and sometimes going to church doesn't mean that you love your God any less or he loves you any less you dig and you say spiritual I'm very spiritual I say my prayers as much as I can sometime two three four times in a day you dig man doesn't take away from what I do and who I am because I'm still in the line for everything else everybody is in but I know every day that I'm able to wake up and every day I'm able to make a dollar and every day I'm able to keep living the life that I am I should be thankful you heard cuz that's not just me that's a higher vibration that's definitely a God you dig and I'm well aware that I've escaped many things in life that Lord knows I should not be here but then again I should be here cuz he put here for a reason he gives his toughest battles to his strongest people what the Bible say you heard and I've made it through some very tough battles which are minimal to some of the people that I had next to me in their battles you know what I mean so it's like we all got to figure it out Jim Jones thank you so much man and thanks to God for bringing you here man definitely I appreciate for making time for us bro thank you man we appreciate you tired when you got you I appreciate the fact that you could even make it man got any last question yeah man bro you said you've gone through some tough battles and you mentioned how you lost your dad at like 26 but also that you you pretty much raised yourself from the age of 15 you know from that relationship or lack of it like has it affected how you father your children 100% this made me the best father I could be but me my relationship with my father was always a great one even though he wasn't there because every day he wasn't I love them even more I wasn't one of them kids that was bitter you dig I understand that everybody went through something and at that age what he was going through there was a lot of drug addiction and I knew that from a very young age I understood what drugs was and how they were tearing up my family I never held that against my father and I was just blessed able to get back with him before he passed away so he could see that his son was making something out of himself at that time I was already signed to her uh we think we just got the Rockefeller deal so it was a very big deal for me to be able to get back with my father to show him that me somebody that you should be proud of and I know him looking down right now got be like damn I did that so you know and that's how I feel but then in turn TR here my son I don't you know I mean like I just you know mean I pride myself on making sure that I I turned my son into somebody that was way better than I could ever be you oh man yeah that's my guy shout out to you man is your son still wearing Crocs to you br he's a Croc guy you heard yeah Crocs for Life bro Crocs for Life jumping out the beam with a fresh paer Crocs on I don't want to stand him Jimmy before you go your top five rappers all time my top five rappers of all you got to give us your top five bro yeah Tupac definitely Jay-Z Drake um Drake he not like us by default of course um rock cam no Eminem No No whoa not even big you from NY and not to take nothing away from him he's extremely nice it's retardedly nice when it comes to rap but I listen to artists that kind of you know I mean do something for the life that I live and kind of what I've been through and most of these artist or artist that I'm talking about people that you know what I mean like [ __ ] better stop hating on my boy Drake all of a sudden all this Drake land I get it I get it you ain't like us let's not do that let's not forget the 15 years he been spanking [ __ ] around this [ __ ] all all all over this [ __ ] all the alley he been giving most of these artists that are now seeming to be turning on them let's you know let's not some of them gave him their best hits let's not forget the big picture here and [ __ ] like but what the hip-hop culture and this game is built on competition so I yeah but what is he with it you heard you better put your best foot forward but what has Drake given back to the culture oh that you so love here we go um what is he giving back to the culture I seen him take a lot of people on tour and turn them even richer than they already was I I seen him give a lot of people hits that they would have never had if he wouldn't have got on a record things for the culture that wouldn't have happened in turn records that we would have never knew about him to record that the culture love and things like that I mean he's not from here Canada from the hood I don't believe he owes America too much but the monster that give back to where he's from maybe we should ask about what has he done in Canada giving back to his community as opposed to what he giving back to the culture of the United States when this is not where he's from and I think that's the Divide right there now if we talk about what he's done in Canada and if it's not up to par then maybe we can talk about oh you dig but that's I think that's for the people of Canada you dig like yeah cuz but it's the people of America in the hood who made him of course you heard about but that he didn't grw up in America he didn't grew up here you heard so if you was an artist from Africa yeah like boy yeah do you think bnab boy has responsibility what do Niger of United stes n I'm taking it back home bro super duper big yes but that's what people then will call a culture vulture cuz you come into a space you know do what the people of that space do benefit from them is is is you understand what we doing like it's bro it's not because he's not take so he's not taking benab boy is Nigerian it's a Nigerian culture that is now popular in America so Drake took an American culture and enriched himself but what he's saying is that he doesn't owe anything to America cuz he's not from yet right okay right yeah I mean [ __ ] he's got no obligation Fair argument he got no obligation Fair argument yeah like he lived if he lived like I don't I don't that's how I see it you heard like that's how I see it you dig but all these [ __ ] we talking about are filthy filthy filthy rich off the opinions of men you heard what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never but what I'm just trying to tell you is how this game is played yeah you heard yeah geez man the more we talk the more they get paid the loser still gets paid too if there is a loser I don't think there's a loser when they all getting Millions off of this [ __ ] I don't think I mean like and I understand end all be all in the whole circle of it but I'm I've been in this [ __ ] for so long I'm miss you can see the politics of really get you to understand of what's really going on and [ __ ] like that this [ __ ] don't pay me a dollar to talk about it yeah hey man how tight you with Joe Bon he calls us those African guys with numbers oh yeah yeah yeah Jo this my guy buts what's up man he cool yeah he's an instigator definely know how to get under people's skin yeah I've known Joan for so long [ __ ] like that um I'm proud of him put himself in his position a whole new Lane to make a shitload of money um where it stem from the culture this what I'm talking about all the ancillary things that you need to get going on if are a artist of some type of success you got to use that to get where you want look at Joe used his startom and rap no matter what it was to able to finesse a whole new Lane of podcasting that true he's pretty big in damn near one of the forefathers of it from our culture right y'all started before him or after him we started after him but now we have more numbers than him hey doesn't matter no numbers do matter I mean no J and get num I'm cool with that but you won't be never be the considered the forefather of this whole no no no no no no no you dig 100% yeah it's Jo Joan numbers is cool I'm cool with that you get paid and I know what's a race you might be number one you heard yeah yeah but you still never be the forefather always going to have that under him like I've created this Lane for your how I feel about Ling hip hop yeah of course I got that under my belt that's mine y can never say that was yours at all yeah okay how much money you made off of it and [ __ ] like that at the end of the day you it's mine you heard Still My still mine so we always ask anybody any guest that we get on the show in closing what do you want to be remembered as man when it's all said and done I want I want to be remembered I want I want them to know that I gave more than I took because I was able to take a lot in my time amen just like that sh hey man I wish you put me on love and& hip-hop bro they got the African love of Hip Hop they got Jamaican love of Hip Hop they got they got any type of Love of Hip Hop we need the South African love of Hip Hop thanks Jim man shout out thank you bro I appreciate you man thank you we appreciate podcast and chill we out of here man boom peace welcome to Black excellenc do not fear for if you do just sip on some Grand and if you still do ask ourselves what would M [Music] do when they ask you do not fear for if you do just say an TV this is the the medicine of censorship this is the pill which one is that one podcast and chill	Bible say you heard and I've made it through some very tough battles which are minimal to some of the people that I had next to me in their battles you know what I mean so it's like we all got to figure it out Jim Jones thank you so much man and thanks to God for bringing you here man definitely I appreciate for making time for us bro thank you man we appreciate you tired when you got you I appreciate the fact that you could even make it man got any last question yeah man bro you said you've gone through some tough battles and you mentioned how you lost your dad at like 26 but also that you you pretty much raised yourself from the age of 15 you know from that relationship or lack of it like has it affected how you father your children 100% this made me the best father I could be but me my relationship with my father was always a great one even though he wasn't there because every day he wasn't I love them even more I wasn't one of them kids that was bitter you dig I understand that everybody went through something and at that age what he was going through there was a lot of drug addiction and I knew that from a very young age I understood what drugs was and how they were tearing up my family I never held that against my father	8	4	6	Bible say you heard and I've made it through some very tough battles which are minimal to some of the people that I had next to me in their battles you know what I mean so it's like we all got to figure it out	yeah man bro you said you've gone through some tough battles and you mentioned how you lost your dad at like 26 but also that you you pretty much raised yourself from the age of 15 you know from that relationship or lack of it like has it affected how you father your children	8,6,8	2,4,5	8	6	8	2	4	5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr730VmL-lk	4,054	rr730VmL-lk	2024-06-27 00:00:00	like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano no well Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he showed me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah just understand everybody going there my guy I understand the hate exactly what you're saying yeah bro what's his name I don't it's fine you remember those some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I ain't scared of nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that the dentist yeah dentist got me there what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never [Music] [Music] yo Jimmy you do not look like you want to be here bro like someone forced you to be it's like you have to do that par they're the biggest podcast in Africa you have to be there I never look like I want to be nowhere man you got to part of me but congratulations to yall having the biggest podcast in Africa that that that's very big Africa being one of the biggest continents in the world a lot of people over there shut up man why you so tired bro crazy weekend I've been working all weekend shows different states traveling Planes Trains automobiles you know how I be a little bit too much partying yeah road kill it's tough but what's up how y'all feeling I'm good bro I literally saw um I saw your video uh yesterday for your new single the one you shot in Miami two turn temp yeah yeah how you feel about it bro that [ __ ] is lit man looks like our Vibe bro cuz we've been to Miami myself and and my partner but we never like experienced the Miami night life we were playing in Florida yeah we're DJing in Florida but two South Africans like the diaspora then West Palm Beach as well yeah DJ also yeah like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano what it's a genre it's called a piano no no cuz I'm a piano even you heard like you saw he did the whole Keys thing it has nothing to do with the piano that's where it started but has nothing to do with it these days when when I met charlot man he said the exact same thing he's like oh so you're a podcaster I'm like yeah and then you DJs I'm like no I play I'm a Pian like you're a Pianist man you one talented [ __ ] n it's a genre of music man what kind of genre is that like it's like slowed down house music with a lot of s that African influence that's the only way I can describe it so it's a it's a mix of a marriage house yeah a marriage of house music which originated here at Chicago and stuff and then we slowed it down created a sub genre called guo where guys were sort of rapping but very minimalist raps called guo then the kids were born like in the 2000s late '90s then created a whole meshup of those two genres and it's called Piano cuz a a lot of Americans think it's um afro beats it's not afro beats yeah a lot of the hence I avoided saying afro beats cuz AFR beats is from Nigeria and amap piano is far from afro beat afro beat borrows from am piano now where is amap piano originated from South Africa from the hoods from the Cassis yeah but when I when I was looking at your video bro uh the only thing in my mind was like bro what's a night like out with Jim Jones CU that [ __ ] look lit there [ __ ] everywhere bro um please please describe a night out in Miami with Jim so let's say we going to Miami right now I mean some nice are better than others but been doing it so long it's kind of like the the bare minimum for us to do in Miami just having fun but it still work at the same time like every every I'm I'm not just going out partying for no reason ni like that was we knew what we was kind of getting into we wanted to film a video so we knew we was going to ramp it up a bit take it to the to the highest form going crazy as we could but that actually happened to fall on a big weekend um and one of my dudes was celebrating so everything kind of happened for a reason but yeah Miami could take you for take you for a few a few trips man like okay so so so me and you we get in the car right I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm in Miami I hate you cuz you got a house there you stay there right yeah I got I got I got cribs there so I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm by the strip you know that Miami strip right yeah yeah yeah I mean see that's the thing about Miami when you come to visit Miami that's where people are know at like the strip and things like that I guess stand by Collins and ocean driveing all that people that live there don't really do the strip like that like you just you dig people congregate usually at night time and all the spots that usually go on down there um okay so we got security obviously you got to roll around with security right um yeah I mean that' be the safest thing for me to do so we get out the cut with security when you get to the bouncers are they letting us in cuz it's Jim Jones or are they checking our IDs cuz they've been checking our IDs just to buy beer here bro Che ID everywhere yeah everywhere yeah no I I don't think I produced my ID in since I was a teenager at clubs but yeah you won't need your ID when you with me so we walking in right yeah we going to get in oh do we have a section do we they going to give us a section VIP yeah they going to give us a section we going to get some bottles and let the night ensue got this thing called Power Hour you go to the club maybe like 2:45 to 3:45 in and out no sweat so what's the what's the purpose of that exercise the Power Hour yeah like why would you be in the cloud for an hour why would I be in a club for 4 hours it's Fu I mean I've been part I've been partying since I've been 14 I've been making money to party since I've been 18 I'm kind of burnt out so at this point I try to wait till the club is at the most popping or lest moment which is usually that hour right there and I get to enjoy everything that happened tonight and leave out of there and not be all burnt out what what does your wife say bro cuz you're married man you're surrounded by all these girls like you know I mean I'm going to worry about the women yeah is minimal to the money worry about the money more than anything so so a woman doesn't like give you grief when you come home I yeah you get you get grief all the time if you in a relationship no matter what you do if you had a job on Wall Street you get home you're going to get grief no around it you heard yeah there's women everywhere unless you work in the LGBT Club then you know I mean even there you still going to go home and get like it's no way around it you're going to get you know I mean like yeah so you've never had like been home and you had to explain like yo no man I was just doing music video it's just work like I don't know that good you going to explain yourself in every relationship and things like that I got a good woman at home who understands a job I have and things like that so for the most part but for the most part I'm a very responsible respectable person when when I'm in the streets and when I do have to interact with females and things like that yeah anyway H ladies and gentlemen welcome to another special edition of podcasting chill so CU yeah I am here we're chilling with the [ __ ] Legend Kings of Harlem please make some noise for Jim Jones Jim I gotta say bro I gotta say bro I'm going to be honest with you when I find that your name was GMO geloo gelo I'm like I'm like Jim Jones losing some G points here man what the [ __ ] is that I'm Puerto Rican and a rubian my pops is Puerto Rican the word gelo means William in English is a Spanish Spanish name cuz you know what I was thinking I was thinking that guy who does the show late night you know the short guy who does like the interviews with um this late night comedian man what are the late night shows oh man not uh bad with these oh gosh the late night guy bro uhri or something not Corin O'Brien no not Trevor Noah the other American guy man like uh old new no he's like jimm Kimel Jimmy Kimel jimy he's got that he's got that short guy his name is julo oh I don't I don't I don't got got me messed up I don't even really watch TV like that bro okay I'll be out chasing the money I ain't even got time to do that and if and if I do got some time I'm trying to get a little bit of rest or I'm thinking about money [ __ ] is crucial out here right now you better get to your dollar a lot of [ __ ] about to happen and if you ain't got no coins boy you going to be [ __ ] up you ever been to uh Puerto Rico yeah I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times yeah but business not for the Heritage part of it so like you don't know where like your your your parents were at Familiar of the place where my father's from but I never really got to do the whole go to give with my family understand the roots understand you know I mean like I didn't get to get to that part of it but I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times you find like that's important like to know you it's definitely important I had this um I did an interview not too long ago about um how important the roots are and get to know where my family from know I mean so we'll start to do that pretty soon so so so your dad you know you know your dad right yeah he's passed away oh okay God bless rest in peace what happened to him he passed away yeah like was it um medical thing or yeah natural causes oh damn like when you young or um maybe when I was uh 23 24 oh damn bro SED to hear that man maybe 26 right before my son passed right before my God bless right before my son Bor bro but you like 47 right now I look good for 47y old man no homo you know what I mean thank you very much like what was what's keeping you looking so good is it the yoga yeah a lot of yoga a lot of Pilates I stay in shape um I'm very uh very big on Fitness um work out like five six times a week um it's one of the best ways to stay young and have better chances of living a long life is that why you do it or maybe there's other purpose like you know a lot of people are in gym for their mental health I mean it's very it's very it's very therapeutic I will say that but my main goal is to look good of course but to give me better chances of living forever bro so how you got into rap um I don't know correct me if I'm wrong right but you used to skip church and go to the train station to to rap like no I never skipped Church to go on the train station and rap I skipped Church to go to the train station and go play video games and run the streets and do everything a bad little kid did from the streets of hollow when we was like S8 and n and things like that I don't know if you know about anything about the subway system in New York but that's the pathway system that get you to all five burrows and we definitely was on the subway which maybe we shouldn't have been but we was a little uh loose um for me rapping actually rapping didn't start later on in life to actually uh C and um they I got a deal and things like that and that was the first time me myself really thought about actually raing cuz I'll be honest with you like um dipet I don't really know much about dipet however I know about you guys individually like Cameron old boy like one of my favorite songs uh jul sna had hear that that was Cameron and Jules and jwes he both was on he both old boy and heon yeah why don't you jump on those tracks man those tracks are massive they was already done I was there for the making of both of them incredible tracks yeah and then how did dipit start start like how did you guys start the whole movement um organically kiss him Harem gr up together um talented kids Cam and Mason BL sh was they already was doing music um Everybody gradu graduated high school I didn't get to go to college they went to college they got kicked out they got kicked out they come moved in with me from that that was a uh foundation for them to D into the music you've been in the game for like 20 30 odd years right been in the game for since 1997 how would you describe the different eras of like um hip-hop right especially now cuz um obviously we all know about the Kendrick Lamar song they're not like us but I didn't know how big it was until I landed in in in America and it's like it's like a movement the video yeah it's like huge it's massive bro yeah it's a big record Kendrick did that shout out to Kendrick shout out to my boy Drake but what do you think about like the evolution of hip-hop in all the different areas you've been a part of what do you mean what do I think about it it's a great thing to be a part of something that um you could only dream of everybody doesn't get a chance to be in this game um I've been fortunate enough to be here for so many genres and errors and seen so many people come and go I've watched the smallest artist to the biggest artist who you thow will be here forever and going um I got stories for days I can tell you about um how I feel about it I feel great I feel blessed you know what I mean I feel lucky this [ __ ] don't it's not promised and for me to still be here is definitely a blessing so in the 90s what was the vibe like man like like what in the 90s as far as what in hip-hop yeah it was it was different um 90s was a great era um one of my favorite errors um that was the era we first first came outside um started to get out deal uh very aggressive era uh no social media um cell phones were just being born um everything that you seen you was something that you could grab on to um artists had to go to the towns we couldn't just get on your phone and music you had to go get you couldn't just have access to it so it was a it was it it was a hunt um you had to touch the Tails kiss babies do radio everything like it was just a different ER but who was around like during that time when you who was around like Tupac was did you like meet Tupac Tupac I didn't get to meet Tupac um Tupac passed away what 95 was that yeah right in big in '97 um no I got to see Tupac do a few times in Harlem um that was dope but um not Tupac passed away before we got to get in the record game but I've seen a lot of a lot of artists in my time from a young age to old age we were partying in clubs as teenagers before we even got a record deal and things like that like we were in clubs since high school and [ __ ] like that so any interactions with Big L he was from Harlem right yeah shouts to Big Al Big Al was definitely from Harlem um 139th NFL Big L um I was one of the Cam's uh close friends um actually put cam on a dope record that started to give uh Cam and bloodshed and and her mcgree her was already popping too but guy gave them some notice when it came to R so when you come out like who's who's popping at that time is it git is it mop D it's way before G when we came out I was like Eminem just dropped oh [ __ ] this is Slim Shady not M like Slim Shady I I remember that that was like cam had dropped and Eminem had dropped DMX had dropped Nori had dropped um Big Pun had dropped lud Chris Luda had just started coming out um Nelly Nelly down down baby yeah shouts to coola love um yeah that type of error shouts to shouts to Fat Joe shouts to Buster they was already in it uh Nas was already in it Jay start going crazy that's when he just started taking over with the 1 million 2 million 3 million 4 um yeah very competitive very edgy um lot of the big dogs um had real roots in the streets um especially in the streets of New York so that put that put a real Mystique on everything when it came to the music um all the events with topnotch um it just was a different feel man it was a heavy heavy dope boy era um this was before the drug dealers wanted to be Rappers that's when the rappers wanted to be drug dealers you know what I mean and and that Arrow was was a very dope high impact trenel and Russian it was a was a great error bro I saw an interview you did correct me if I'm wrong I might be paraphrasing but you mentioned a place called the tunnel or something where everybody would be and you guys were [ __ ] [ __ ] in the bathrooms please please describe that manest cuz a place like that couldn't exist right now bro with all this woke [ __ ] I mean yeah and the cancel cult I would say it was probably the greatest Club The Hip hopers have seen and it was during the 90s era it was the Golden Era um in New York they got you had stories about like Studio 54 in that era when everybody used all the biggest of big used to go to Studio 54 well the tunnel was what Studio 54 was to that era to our era and it didn't make so many people and nationalities and genres and just everybody was like a big pumbo all for the sake of the culture you had some of the flyest models to some of the biggest drug dealers biggest gang bangers I mean every former elicit street life you could think of was in the spot along with the biggest artists and rappers and actors and models that you could find into all athletes um it would definitely like that um and was this like per invite or just like anybody could Rock up there nah you couldn't just rock up there for this is '90s entry was like $100 first of all $100 for a club that was the first time we ever heard of it and that was a lot of money back then especially we probably started in '94 going there teenager so $100 was sto a lot of money in New York at the time sneakers wasn't even costing $100 um to get in the club you definitely had to be connected to know somebody or you had to wait on a long line that usually was a block long um they had like an Express line you could pay $100 to get on Express line that'll get you to the door quicker and then you pay your entry fee um streets was blocked off you was a big dog you was able to bring your cars down there I was able to bring like four five of them if I wanted to um yeah the club was just it was different man pull up to the door security they taking people's shoes off they searching your jacket twisting people inside out like they about to go on the Rikers Island I got to I gave security High files I never took my shoes off and not since high school I when we used go in high school we used to get our shoes taken off and things like that make you feel like you going to the cental bookings and [ __ ] like that so what gave you that clout that allowed you to bring four cars in when nobody or you had to be a big dog to bring four cars in when you could just give them a high five instead of removing your shoes and you're young by then like what gives you that CL I was a big dog since a small pup bro J yeah man what gave you those you know credentials at such a young age to suppos all these people cuz Dr Tre was there yeah you putting in four cars not removing shoes I was a good Lord Biden citizen everybody love Jim Jones even even the girls like would you just rock up they say let's go to the bathroom that's it yeah now that well yeah there was a lot of that going on they had a uh the layout was different first of all the club was a block long a whole city block um wow there was like three other four other clubs within the club or spots that look like clubs um the main floor was humongously big the DJ was like a a lifeguard Tower in the middle of the club um you go upstairs they had a VR big V PE upstairs and then go through a door it open up to the bathroom the bathroom was like a unisex Club [ __ ] had a big ass bar in the middle of the bathroom uh bunch of stalls lined up um that [ __ ] was like a hotel inside Lions cocaine everything yeah they was going down a lot of sex was going down there a lot of a lot of drugs was going down in there um yeah the tunnel was definitely uh a landmark to New York City when it comes to the clubs I I definitely um I always think about that club um it did a lot for me in my life um it gave me a lot of imagination when it came to to the culture and the things I was seeing from a young age as to where I want to be and the direction I want to go in yeah we was going there since high school so when you seeing people like Mike Tyson and all these people coming in big cheer on and just having their way as a kid go out got to go to school the next morning you you in school thinking about that [ __ ] like w man this school [ __ ] [ __ ] this school [ __ ] I need some money and I need to go to the tunnel that's all I want to [ __ ] do that's wild man now can you imagine because we in sa right we're looking at all the videos that you guys are pulling out there like we're looking at this lifestyle and then you F Track to 2024 right M and the P didy thing breaks out right I mean i' rather not even to get into that yeah just don't I rather the do I don't you know I mean like it's not it's not my business oh I mean like this you heard God bless it's too much n yeah and it's not me to have an opinion on certain things cuz I ain't perfect I've been through my own [ __ ] in life and I see a lot of people that have even this doing too much just know that I ain't perfect so I choose not to talk on certain [ __ ] that you know what I mean a lot of other people people been talking about I let them keep doing the talk and I got other [ __ ] to work on I'm trying to work on me being a better person yeah I respect I respect that man but were ever part of any gang or like you sounding like the F never hey we don't the F in South Africa man only PS I'm just playing with you yeah I've been affiliated with the bloods in New York City um ENT Tre um yeah so crazy have you ever been to sa like have you ever been to Africa or um I've been to Africa where did you go uh gaban gille damn G to perform there um I went to perform there but uh got some great friends there they actually had ran the country at the time this is before the big yeah yeah overtaking and stuff like that but I had a ball out there I got to go to an island called Pony um that was a dope experience as they took me to the jungles I got to see some of the indigenous people um it was like a a real um life Awakening like and I got to see how also the rich people live out there also like I got to see both sides like that you know what I mean it was it was a great experience I out there for like a week um I haven't been back since but yeah it was dope you never been to South Africa never been to South Africa bro so the reason why I asked that is because like yo bro like American culture has infiltrated South Africa like you can't believe like you know we got people worshiping you guys you know Jim Jones rappers and everything you so we've got rappers who rap just like you and youd say they're like Bloods and Crips but they've never they've never left sa you know cuz that's how influential uh the culture is right but from you when you see or hear that like what do you guys think like do you think is like some [ __ ] like or like leave don't don't follow the gang life you know what I mean oh as far as that is concerned um there's two sides to that this what you do as a gang member that turns it into something that becomes a crime or whatever that end but the Brotherhood part of it is what the most of us joined up for when we coming up in the hood and need that Brotherhood lean on somebody is that type of camaraderie that pretty much stood for and there's a lot of other great attributes that comes with affiliation or you becoming a part of a gang um it gets twisted up because we all come up in these urban communities and our back is against the wall we don't have no opportunities um it's very dormant uh we on top of each other so naturally testosterone testosterone wins in a lot of these situations where these kids find s in bad situations and for that I would tell people to kind of stay away from this type of life um I don't want to oppose my will we all going to experience what we going to experience but I can't tell you the consequences to this type of Lifestyle could be very dear you heard ethal a lot of people don't get to make it where I made it and Escape that lifestyle that could have put me away or could have put me in the dirt I mean so here as a Living testament to tell you that these consequences are terrible the odds on you making it out of that life in a positive manner are very slim I mean but if you are in that life and you taking it as a Brotherhood and try to uplift your brothers I know there's a lot of people around you that are doing a lot of [ __ ] that that that that that's very crazy you know what I mean if you're a part of that and you got the positive minder then you try to uplift your brother and instill some positivity within them because it's very cold out here so I've always been curious bro like so when that when you you you start getting immersed you know or Affiliated in the gang life how does that affect the conversation at home with your parents like your mom your dad and just the domestic you know Dynamics I a't grow my parents I was a grown man since I was like 15 I made my own money since I was like 16 my grandmother left me in high school man I was raising my Sisters by myself in the projects I hustle every I ever got in my life that's why music saved my life I was so grateful to be able to be next to cam and him getting a deal at such a very young age to be able to still be making money off that [ __ ] right now you were U anr for Warner uh music group yeah I was the director of anr for Warner Music Group um years ago uh shouts to Kevin L shouts to Leo Cohen for giving me the opportunity um great opportunity uh I excelled at it extremely very young with a lot of power but didn't understand what I had at hand um didn't have too many people in my corner that were telling me the things that I should have been doing with that type of position as opposed to some type of weird way be hating you know I mean so that's what happened but as you get older you learn you learn and you move on who did you discover while you were in that position uh I would tell you a story I I know I've helped try s uh they come to tra songs that you know today he's always in he's always in we know why no n but he was a young kid at the time and uh they were actually going to cut him from the label we had a big uh um it's like uh one of them uh some events they be doing not the talent shows the uh well was something like that all the artists had to come perform and then they pretty much didn't know that they was on a Cho and block at the time when I was an executive and and he was one of the artists that they were going to cut and I remember Kevin L specifically ask me yo what we should do with him I'm about to cut him I don't know what to do with him and when I heard him uh singing and I saw him perform I was like this is this is one artist you should keep and did that and now we all tra songs on so many dope ass records is it true you could have signed Drake yeah I had a chance to sign uh I had a chance to do business with Drake um through Allan grum blat um when I was doing business at cotch um it was a different era I didn't understand what Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he show me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah understand everybody going at my guy I understand the hate man the hate is so phenomenal it's just how this game go man this game is so tricky man these [ __ ] just like females in this game we ain't going to get into that man there's a lot of uh but wait wait wait so so with Drake like are you are you seeing him perform like try songs or like you just heard of the guy just a conversation Allan called me about signing a kid let me hear some of his music um and I was like the kid know how to rap but I don't know what to do with him his image is crazy and him couple years later heard him on a Wheezy mixtape going crazy I was like wow this kid is about to go wham inside of this business and he sure did and you're know trying to call Weezy like yo man I gotta get that kid or something n he was already signed a young money and jcole did you miss on jcole as well I could have signed J Cole bro jcole was in the studio with me every day and at that point jcole I he's he remind me of a knockoff Drake and not to say it like that but that's who he sounded like he came to my studio every day rapping to these Drake beats rapping like Drake Cadence like Drake he could rap his ass off yeah you heard yeah but it was already a drake out there he had the Caesar it was different like two lightskinn [ __ ] might not K when raing the same but you never know what you got in front of you man you dig and those are lessons I I've took with me to moving forward when I see artists and and I hate artists I always give them more than just hearing just just I got to I got to I gotta try to capture the whole picture I make sure I just don't you mean so I don't miss nothing else because I've missed a few people and I've helped a few people um gain a lot of success in in my time in this industry whether it been by me having a meeting with them or me having influence on them or you know I mean so you know and there's never like any animosity like Jake Cole or Drake never came up to be like yo you could have signed me look at me now bro I mean me and Drake is cool as [ __ ] um I see J Cole I don't think he I mean I don't think that's no he some [ __ ] he might want to keep to himself not to be like that sh the co he not that type of artist he's not a you I mean yeah you did I look I look at as we can see I want to mention an artist who like I'm really fond of like I think this guy's [ __ ] amazing musically talented everything that he touched like turned to Gold who's that uh kid k bro K Cy yeah yeah did you help him with his career yeah I birth K Cy wow J me how so bro bir them nobody would have know who K Cy was at all if I a jump on this remix record but it wasn't even remix he wasn't even a nobody like I tell a story all the time I had a inter used to work for me said he got some dudes that do videos they would like to do a video for me told them come let me see they work they show me their videos the first video they showed me was of the kid Cy record he's on the top of a roof some simple video the record sound more wavy than the opportunity for them to do a video I'm like well if you'll get me the beat to this record I Remix this record and then y'all can shoot the video to that record wow and that's what they did and then um the radio station ripped the record off of YouTube and start playing it at Hot 97 and K Cy was born bro why do you think especially about kid Cy cuz from him when I listen to music right it wasn't really no no other kid Cy record besides the one that I was on yeah man he's not in they don't play his records where I be at at all not to be funny wow bro and we listen to him like all that day and night you know remember only record I know yeah it's the only record I know unless it's like a pop record that everybody know and I and I'm even not paying attention to it but he don't his records don't get played nowhere that i' be at not like that unless I go into a different farm and that's the type of music they playing in one of these funny clubs that play fist pump music and pop music he's not into like you dig like they don't play his music in the clubs I'll be at maybe in Vegas and [ __ ] like that but that's not like they not pumping this [ __ ] in live they not pumping this [ __ ] in Atlanta they not pumping this [ __ ] down the Stafford room or you know what I mean like they I'm not saying nothing like that but I don't hear it in the strip clubs I don't hear like you know what I mean so but he's a very successful person with some of the greats like Kanye to put him in a position to win and [ __ ] like that and I think he's way more better as an actor than he is a musician and that's just my POS that's just my opinion he did I seen him in the movie uh about the race car [ __ ] where he was F the playe like he got a lot of Charisma and [ __ ] like that on on camera for what I could see and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean bro I mean for you as Jim Jones to to see these kids you're introduced to them by an intern and then to hop onto that song it's something selfless you know to just give these unknown kids an opportunity of sharing a song with you where do you think that selflessness comes from how was that unknown kid I'm still an unknown kid anytime I get an opportunity that's an opportunity I should be able to give to somebody else bro the fact that you could even come to our podcast shout out man yeah man you don't even know us exactly what you're saying yeah know us what's his name I don't it's fine you know remember those kids who who did the video for him anyway you know remember I remember like that kids that got the biggest African podcast I'm definitely going to know like them is my guys right family right there appreciate I really mean that that sincerely and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean I I bump in too many people in my life and been across too many people in my journey to actually remember everybody's name but the face and the cause and I mean BR I want to understand right the first time you came up with the concept For Love and Hip Hop where were you what was happening that um that was something like uh me and Christy she had opportunity to do uh her own reality show um and actually fell through and that kind of she was kind of she wanted to do that I can see she was eager about doing that when it fell through kind you know I mean [ __ ] with her mood and [ __ ] like that so so so so so the initial concept what was it was just Chrissy just showing like what's life the initial concept was about she had her own thing going on about a group of women that was supposed to do a reality show had nothing to do with me yeah that [ __ ] fell through she lost that opportunity to end up not going people have been begging me to do reality TV for past couple years at the time and I and you reality TV gold man I refused to do it yeah and then when that happened I was like all right I got I'll do this for you and we'll make it about you and females that have to that are involved with artist such as myself and show what the relationship side is when you're dealing with a high-profile artist and you know what I mean how so that's how that started bro and that thing became a monster super super monster like it's still big till this day bro 100% so do you have like uh ownership in that we we were link a all that you know at that time when maybe the second season we just in a position where we refuse to compromise our dignity for anyone or any dollar and sometimes it be like that you know what I mean um but ain't no stress off my back T my hat to him you no but but but we got to talk about that because you see like this podcast um it's blackowned right it's just me and a couple of other people that are involved in the podcast right and we're always striving for ownership so a lot of um Brands and investors have come to try to buy the podcast and we say know cuz like we believe in ownership and telling the story the way we want to tell it right so what went wrong in that because as a hustler I believe like that's your also end goal MH um it wasn't something that I was just a lot of different layers and [ __ ] like that and I was too worried about doing other things and we had the opportunity to gain all ownership 50% of the whole TV show and all that but it still wasn't worth GE bro that's insane you just let go like that yeah bro it's your brain child bro there is no Love and& Hip Hop without you bro I still got a brain you heard yeah those are for people that don't have a brain that lack creativity people that steal things from you lack what you don't have remember that yeah whether it's money whether it's creativity whatever it is they lack what you don't have ultimately they steal from you you heard I mean we didn't even know C beef if it wasn't for Love and& Hip Hop right yeah yeah yeah definitely yeah bro you gave birth to so many many people man like VI their careers that's the god in me that's why I'm always going to be good yeah she man so any other shows that you're working on like in the pipeline that you want to do I was telling you I working on um a late night show a late night um a late night variety show live in studio audience hopefully we'll be filming in about 40 to 60 days um beautiful concept I do I do believe people going enjoy the show um like I was saying I can't do um a podcast is too personal for me and [ __ ] like that and me watching these podcasts um dealing with these artists me myself don't have the temperament for it you know what I mean um I [ __ ] I T my hat to y'all to have to deal with artists such as myself cuz you never know what type of mood they going to come in you know what I me some of these artists have a air to them where they feel like they better than most and they would never sit and have tea with the with the maintenance guy you heard me myself me going to maintenance guy going to smoke blunts before I get on stage [Music] I live my life and and and currently uh before we let you go man what do you think about the state of hip-hop cuz like statistically numbers wise it's not looking good man e beats has played all over New York now there's now the pianos this is this is what they want you to do this is how to get us to go against each other it's all under the same culture umbrella it's afro music ref I'm a piano I'm a piano explain that what do you mean by that bro yeah R&B what do you mean by that ultimately it's all from under the same origin and creativity of the same person from the same colors is all our thing n but let's be honest Jimmy hip-hop hasn't involved bro when I was listening to Eminem what do you want mean what do you mean hip-hop hasn't evolved you guys are still rapping about the same stuff it don't you you missing the point of what hip-hop is yeah hip-hop has evolved to a point that you can be the music genres that you're told them about can be noticed you think that if there was a hip hop that I'm a piano would be noticed or afro Beach would be noticed think about that and not to take nothing away from y because you always have culture and yes that music might be big within the continent of Africa yeah right but to cross over to American Fame and commercialism you don't think that the hip-hop culture played a big part in that that's that that's a different argument now you want to have a different argument I'm telling you the semantics of where we going with this you dig like you talking about uh the the hip hop music is damn percentage that's how they want us to think when it's really not cuz we all uplifting each other you heard you think that the country music that's going on in the black people winning is not because of the hip-hop culture no no no I think no one is disputing that however so then when you say hip-hop numbers are down and damn for who no I'm talking about I know what you're talking about but damn for who tell me who it's down for because I'm still making the money I make yeah I do believe there's still a lot of artist that's making a shitload of money that they make I don't think it went down for them yeah you know what I mean but I understand what you're talking about they say the numbers and then rock and roll genre might be up like I don't really you heard like that's I'm into this business you heard and it's always up for us you heard cuz this is a business we make money out of nothing it's never a downside to this okay and and that's why I'm saying I think we're having two different conversations here cuz the conversation I'm having is I'm having I'm having right is that in as much as he's saying yeah the numbers are down because they orchestrated and whatever I get that right but also that's why I asked do you think Hip-hop has evolved cuz I grew up on hip-hop right and the same things um quote unquote you guys were rapping about in the '90s how can hipop how can hip hop evolved in the same thing that Africa been Africa been going on since the '90s aren't y going still going through the same thing we are huh we are so how could the music evolve when the music ref the time ah okay get you real stories what you want us to rap about [ __ ] that that we don't have ah we talk about [ __ ] we dream about all the time that's the good The Good Life the colorin the Ros we talk about but the truth is how the music going to change when our position hasn't changed when we still going through the same [ __ ] we've been going through okay and y'all being from Africa should know that more than we know that yeah that's facts that's fact go about that own Cod yeah yeah yeah yeah you know are bro that's a valid fact but how do you feel man like you've come from an era where you guys when what you you said in your raps I mean evolved as far as dition as far as what we rap about cuz we still stuck in the same place but as a business it has evolved to one of big time yeah yeah biggest big time money making machines you can attach yourself to this made some of the richest individuals whether you're the rapper the lawyer the executive like that's true you know what I mean the supply chain but then I think that's why you know when you get the likes of a wz coming out and Kendrick Lamar they stand out like a sore thumb because like they are rapping about but that's what music is about to stand out for those who that want to look like everybody they don't get nowhere why you think Dip set was so successful sucessful yeah because we stood out on purpose we don't want to look like or H or sound like no one else m we want yall to above all see us when we walk in the building and hear us when we get on that [ __ ] mic you heard why would you guys the diplomats I never like where did that come from the diplomats the name the diplomats yeah we diplomats oh ah okay that sounded cool no we diplomats we are Harlem diplomats and we take it as that you heard we go to the Embassy when we land in countries you heard all right okay okay okay I I sort of get that bro so in the business and how you still making money right now like from music just like how is it royalties damn you asking a lot of questions bro no I want to know bro I'm so I've got so many questions I want to ask you bro I'll tell you this music is supposed to be used so you can make as much ancillary dollars as you can because the music ain't promised everybody 15 minutes of fame ranges from a small 15 minutes of fame to a run like we having within that minute the 15 minutes the fame you better do a lot of other things to secure your bag because music is not going to be thing you be able to get paid off forever unless you're the DRS and the J that's not even 1% that's you know what I mean so you think about that so you better have some hustle you better learn how to you better have some business sense you better put your credit in order you better do a few things to secure you if you are artist [ __ ] leverage powerful penda yeah man how do you feel man when these kids these days wrap up about you know trying to act tough and rap about stuff they never done like you guys red about stuff you lived I mean I do believe a lot of these kids are going through a lot of [ __ ] that we went through and then a lot of the kids are talking about [ __ ] that they see but most of the kids are all growing up in the same community that all of that [ __ ] is going on so who tells them they don't have the right to talk about [ __ ] that they're not doing when that's still [ __ ] that they're seeing oh sure Ah that's powerful but the problem I have a problem when they rapping like they did it but they just R from somebody else's Vantage Point understand that but most of these artists that you've seen in the game some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I pretty firm in his in in his music that I'm a believer that he did some of that [ __ ] he can talk about just me I don't know you possibilities are possibilities but some things just seem correct you know mean I can't tell you for sure cuz it is music you know what I mean but some things seem correct [ __ ] man bro you got to come out to man you got to you know we haven't had a proper uh hip-hop concert in sa like since 50 N since you are come on back to the city does concerts man ah those are for old people empd the bigest artist in South Africa right now Hip-Hop Hip-Hop uh there's a guy called nastyc but nesty came here he doesn't know know you f poopa who's that nah F poopa Nigerian West African artist massive he used to pop not now for real still massive bigger than like ber boyo still it's different type of music oh stadiums is 50 60,000 people like what is this following this gu what's his name f poop F poop I don't know him bro he's from Nigeria yeah yeah yeah yeah Nigerian Prett pretty big yeah humongous bro how big was was 50 Cent bro like during his Reign man like how big was 50 Cent [ __ ] retardedly big it wasn't nothing bigger than him was Drake before Drake was dring he was oh [ __ ] he did it like it was like 50 was on a run that he never even touched the club bro like [ __ ] never seen him in the club he only did Arenas I never knew too many artist that just did that you dig like the [ __ ] was super massive every [ __ ] Rec he came out with was was going platinum and I'm just telling you the facts you heard and I always got to speak factual no matter how I feel about a person the [ __ ] was on top Super on top it was no way to knock him off his d i remember Jay-Z dropped the diss track on you did you guys resolve that beef I think you were not happy with him as the president of De jam oh man um we never really had a beef um we had some feuds back and forth through the situations that were going on over other people um and me being who I am I had to hold my ground um but to know that he actually talked about me in multiple of his records mean that I was pretty big in his eyes you dig true true cuz I didn't hear him talk about too many people in his career and if he did talk you talk about you on the record that meant something you know what I mean and I was then so for me that I I I took that like what it was like you dig like yeah J doesn't respond to take the time out to say my name you heard if I'm if I'm not that big of a deal to you you would never ever a am I am I right talk about a person you heard true it's it's a form of respect and ackowledge 100% am I right in saying a lot of [ __ ] are scared of Jay-Z bro cuz we interviewed Dam Ian I don't I don't know I'm not a lot of [ __ ] you heard I'm a man so I couldn't I I couldn't tell you that you heard I ain't scared to nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that that that dentist yeah the dentist got me there you heard you can walk in you could walk we about to fight right now you a dentist walk in you got it you got it like you got it bow down you got it I don't want no smoke let me get out of here M fact word Jimmy before you go man uh what beefs did you have so you had something beef with Jay-Z right no man I just told you we had some feuds stemming from that's beef bro stemming from other things that going on um my problem like it was all part of Us coming up in the game and things were happening we were signing a Rockefeller cam was sign a Rockefeller actually then we got opportunity to Diplomat records um the split between uh Jay and Dame came um artist took sides some took the J side some took the the Dame side which side were you on we was on the Dame side OB Dash yeah Dame Dash that's do you think Dame Dash is misunderstood bro huh you think Dame Dash is misunderstood um too smart for his own good I get that yeah if you had the opportunity again you sometimes being the smartest person in the room could be held against you especially when you want everybody to know that you're the smartest person in the room yeah yeah yeah and I get given a second chance would you still side with Dam never you wouldn't never whoa I never signed a d at all that was no no no like sided with him took his side oh give a second chance I wouldn't have sided with none of them I would we would haveed our [ __ ] business but you learned that with age yeah you heard we had no business butting into that because it wasn't a street beef and this wasn't some [ __ ] that had to do with us ultimately we were holding our [ __ ] down and [ __ ] like that but business-wise if we would if we knew what we knew now we would let them get into that they self y'all can handle that because we got records to put out and music to make and we got our own record label to run you dig and this my hinder what we got going on by us taking sides and that's why I tell people now even when people seeing all the Diplomat [ __ ] like y bro don't don't get in to taking sides with me and my bro because you never know how that might end up and if it end up to a point where we do figure out our situation then I'm looking at you funny now me and you got forever you heard you dig and there are plenty of people that did that and plenty people that didn't and plenty people that showed the same amount of love that he showed to me that it showed to cam when we were going through our imaginary situations and [ __ ] like that cuz it's all imaginary when you know you can figure figure it out now it's a saying that like don't just be in people's business when especially when they've beef and take sides cuz and I I had to learn that a lot I had took me a long time to learn that because of how we come up in the Cod that they supposedly treat us in teach us in the street and [ __ ] like that but sometimes that's not the smallest thing that we can do and then uh push a t did you ever beef with him nah that was some [ __ ] that we was on record um he did some [ __ ] I did some [ __ ] you dig that was it I never followed that I didn't even know did you know there's a pusher T me I ain't got no just know I don't know I know you're from I know you're from Africa and [ __ ] like that but people don't play with me yeah for real and I don't I don't play with people this ain't no playground you heard this is the street it's two ways don't get caught up in a yellow line it's going to be hard to cross bro yeah you heard no I don't trust me I'm from Africa but I saw what happened at the airport so that [ __ ] escalated yeah [ __ ] that was self-defense man God yo bro it looked like that guy was just messing with you bro I wish that could have never happened cuz I was trying to avoid that by all cause but [ __ ] happened sometime man you dig and definitely not not going to allow anybody do anything to me at all bro when I saw that video right like I don't know I just met you today right but I saw when you lifted that guy from the escalator threw him down he literally just went on survival mode bro like it's like there was a button that you switched on and you just like I don't [ __ ] care but yeah yeah no I mean no that's a button that I choose not to push you heard yeah exactly like you can go there quickly I choose to show restraint for a lot of reasons in my life and sometimes it's hard to you dig but where I'm at in life right now I choose positivity or all the other things that come out my way because I know how it is to be negative I was once that negative person that was very aggressive and ready to do something to to you over the minimal alistic of things and [ __ ] like that so I'm blessed to be here to try to be able to show restraint and so so the guy so the guy at the airport you guys on the same plane yeah we on the same plane so you don't have a private jet no I don't have a private jet I'm not a rich man come on Jimmy you made so much money over the years but anyway so you're in the plane what's he what's this guy saying to you like um I don't know man just [ __ ] happens I know just the started from the plane just know that what you see happen on so it starts on the plane you restrain yourself you're like all right cool my dog say whatever you want to say yeah when he gets to the airport I mean the escalator that's when I think he starts hitting you or something right yeah something like that he tried to do something like that and that's what we see man but like I said this is not something that I want to glorify it's not you think he knows who you are um if if he didn't he know now no I'm I'm sorry see sorry cuz some people just provoke I believe he was he was trolling a little bit and things like that which is cool you I mean I'm if if you in New York not time 10 you do know who I am so you know I believe it was a bit of that but God bless man hopefully that they all right hopefully the old man um cool you dig like are you spiritual cuz you mentioned God a lot man yeah I'm very spiritual very spiritual very spiritual I've been my whole family is spiritual and what does that mean in an American sense cuz um us as African for me it means a lot of different things um I was told what the church was as a young age as they drag you to church every Sunday your grandmother your moms and your family and things like that and you really don't understand what that is from that young but as you get older and you go through certain things and you make it through certain things you understand that there is a God and everybody has a relationship with their God different and sometimes going to church doesn't mean that you love your God any less or he loves you any less you dig and you say spiritual I'm very spiritual I say my prayers as much as I can sometime two three four times in a day you dig man doesn't take away from what I do and who I am because I'm still in the line for everything else everybody is in but I know every day that I'm able to wake up and every day I'm able to make a dollar and every day I'm able to keep living the life that I am I should be thankful you heard cuz that's not just me that's a higher vibration that's definitely a God you dig and I'm well aware that I've escaped many things in life that Lord knows I should not be here but then again I should be here cuz he put here for a reason he gives his toughest battles to his strongest people what the Bible say you heard and I've made it through some very tough battles which are minimal to some of the people that I had next to me in their battles you know what I mean so it's like we all got to figure it out Jim Jones thank you so much man and thanks to God for bringing you here man definitely I appreciate for making time for us bro thank you man we appreciate you tired when you got you I appreciate the fact that you could even make it man got any last question yeah man bro you said you've gone through some tough battles and you mentioned how you lost your dad at like 26 but also that you you pretty much raised yourself from the age of 15 you know from that relationship or lack of it like has it affected how you father your children 100% this made me the best father I could be but me my relationship with my father was always a great one even though he wasn't there because every day he wasn't I love them even more I wasn't one of them kids that was bitter you dig I understand that everybody went through something and at that age what he was going through there was a lot of drug addiction and I knew that from a very young age I understood what drugs was and how they were tearing up my family I never held that against my father and I was just blessed able to get back with him before he passed away so he could see that his son was making something out of himself at that time I was already signed to her uh we think we just got the Rockefeller deal so it was a very big deal for me to be able to get back with my father to show him that me somebody that you should be proud of and I know him looking down right now got be like damn I did that so you know and that's how I feel but then in turn TR here my son I don't you know I mean like I just you know mean I pride myself on making sure that I I turned my son into somebody that was way better than I could ever be you oh man yeah that's my guy shout out to you man is your son still wearing Crocs to you br he's a Croc guy you heard yeah Crocs for Life bro Crocs for Life jumping out the beam with a fresh paer Crocs on I don't want to stand him Jimmy before you go your top five rappers all time my top five rappers of all you got to give us your top five bro yeah Tupac definitely Jay-Z Drake um Drake he not like us by default of course um rock cam no Eminem No No whoa not even big you from NY and not to take nothing away from him he's extremely nice it's retardedly nice when it comes to rap but I listen to artists that kind of you know I mean do something for the life that I live and kind of what I've been through and most of these artist or artist that I'm talking about people that you know what I mean like [ __ ] better stop hating on my boy Drake all of a sudden all this Drake land I get it I get it you ain't like us let's not do that let's not forget the 15 years he been spanking [ __ ] around this [ __ ] all all all over this [ __ ] all the alley he been giving most of these artists that are now seeming to be turning on them let's you know let's not some of them gave him their best hits let's not forget the big picture here and [ __ ] like but what the hip-hop culture and this game is built on competition so I yeah but what is he with it you heard you better put your best foot forward but what has Drake given back to the culture oh that you so love here we go um what is he giving back to the culture I seen him take a lot of people on tour and turn them even richer than they already was I I seen him give a lot of people hits that they would have never had if he wouldn't have got on a record things for the culture that wouldn't have happened in turn records that we would have never knew about him to record that the culture love and things like that I mean he's not from here Canada from the hood I don't believe he owes America too much but the monster that give back to where he's from maybe we should ask about what has he done in Canada giving back to his community as opposed to what he giving back to the culture of the United States when this is not where he's from and I think that's the Divide right there now if we talk about what he's done in Canada and if it's not up to par then maybe we can talk about oh you dig but that's I think that's for the people of Canada you dig like yeah cuz but it's the people of America in the hood who made him of course you heard about but that he didn't grw up in America he didn't grew up here you heard so if you was an artist from Africa yeah like boy yeah do you think bnab boy has responsibility what do Niger of United stes n I'm taking it back home bro super duper big yes but that's what people then will call a culture vulture cuz you come into a space you know do what the people of that space do benefit from them is is is you understand what we doing like it's bro it's not because he's not take so he's not taking benab boy is Nigerian it's a Nigerian culture that is now popular in America so Drake took an American culture and enriched himself but what he's saying is that he doesn't owe anything to America cuz he's not from yet right okay right yeah I mean [ __ ] he's got no obligation Fair argument he got no obligation Fair argument yeah like he lived if he lived like I don't I don't that's how I see it you heard like that's how I see it you dig but all these [ __ ] we talking about are filthy filthy filthy rich off the opinions of men you heard what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never but what I'm just trying to tell you is how this game is played yeah you heard yeah geez man the more we talk the more they get paid the loser still gets paid too if there is a loser I don't think there's a loser when they all getting Millions off of this [ __ ] I don't think I mean like and I understand end all be all in the whole circle of it but I'm I've been in this [ __ ] for so long I'm miss you can see the politics of really get you to understand of what's really going on and [ __ ] like that this [ __ ] don't pay me a dollar to talk about it yeah hey man how tight you with Joe Bon he calls us those African guys with numbers oh yeah yeah yeah Jo this my guy buts what's up man he cool yeah he's an instigator definely know how to get under people's skin yeah I've known Joan for so long [ __ ] like that um I'm proud of him put himself in his position a whole new Lane to make a shitload of money um where it stem from the culture this what I'm talking about all the ancillary things that you need to get going on if are a artist of some type of success you got to use that to get where you want look at Joe used his startom and rap no matter what it was to able to finesse a whole new Lane of podcasting that true he's pretty big in damn near one of the forefathers of it from our culture right y'all started before him or after him we started after him but now we have more numbers than him hey doesn't matter no numbers do matter I mean no J and get num I'm cool with that but you won't be never be the considered the forefather of this whole no no no no no no no you dig 100% yeah it's Jo Joan numbers is cool I'm cool with that you get paid and I know what's a race you might be number one you heard yeah yeah but you still never be the forefather always going to have that under him like I've created this Lane for your how I feel about Ling hip hop yeah of course I got that under my belt that's mine y can never say that was yours at all yeah okay how much money you made off of it and [ __ ] like that at the end of the day you it's mine you heard Still My still mine so we always ask anybody any guest that we get on the show in closing what do you want to be remembered as man when it's all said and done I want I want to be remembered I want I want them to know that I gave more than I took because I was able to take a lot in my time amen just like that sh hey man I wish you put me on love and& hip-hop bro they got the African love of Hip Hop they got Jamaican love of Hip Hop they got they got any type of Love of Hip Hop we need the South African love of Hip Hop thanks Jim man shout out thank you bro I appreciate you man thank you we appreciate podcast and chill we out of here man boom peace welcome to Black excellenc do not fear for if you do just sip on some Grand and if you still do ask ourselves what would M [Music] do when they ask you do not fear for if you do just say an TV this is the the medicine of censorship this is the pill which one is that one podcast and chill	and I was just blessed able to get back with him before he passed away so he could see that his son was making something out of himself at that time I was already signed to her uh we think we just got the Rockefeller deal so it was a very big deal for me to be able to get back with my father to show him that me somebody that you should be proud of and I know him looking down right now got be like damn I did that so you know and that's how I feel but then in turn TR here my son I don't you know I mean like I just you know mean I pride myself on making sure that I I turned my son into somebody that was way better than I could ever be you oh man yeah that's my guy shout out to you man is your son still wearing Crocs to you br he's a Croc guy you heard yeah Crocs for Life bro Crocs for Life jumping out the beam with a fresh paer Crocs on I don't want to stand him Jimmy before you go your top five rappers all time my top five rappers of all you got to give us your top five bro yeah Tupac definitely Jay-Z Drake um Drake he not like us by default of course um rock cam no Eminem No No whoa not even big you from NY and not to	8	6	4	and I was just blessed able to get back with him before he passed away so he could see that his son was making something out of himself at that time I was already signed to her uh we think we just got the Rockefeller deal so it was a very big deal for me to be able to get back with my father to show him that me somebody that you should be proud of and I know him looking down right now got be like damn I did that so you know and that's how I feel but then in turn TR here my son I don't you know I mean like I just you know mean I pride myself on making sure that I I turned my son into somebody that was way better than I could ever be you oh man yeah that's my guy shout out to you man	is your son still wearing Crocs to you br he's a Croc guy you heard yeah Crocs for Life bro Crocs for Life jumping out the beam with a fresh paer Crocs on I don't want to stand him Jimmy before you go your top five rappers all time my top five rappers of all you got to give us your top five bro yeah	8,5,7	6,8,4	8	5	7	6	8	4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr730VmL-lk	4,054	rr730VmL-lk	2024-06-27 00:00:00	like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano no well Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he showed me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah just understand everybody going there my guy I understand the hate exactly what you're saying yeah bro what's his name I don't it's fine you remember those some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I ain't scared of nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that the dentist yeah dentist got me there what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never [Music] [Music] yo Jimmy you do not look like you want to be here bro like someone forced you to be it's like you have to do that par they're the biggest podcast in Africa you have to be there I never look like I want to be nowhere man you got to part of me but congratulations to yall having the biggest podcast in Africa that that that's very big Africa being one of the biggest continents in the world a lot of people over there shut up man why you so tired bro crazy weekend I've been working all weekend shows different states traveling Planes Trains automobiles you know how I be a little bit too much partying yeah road kill it's tough but what's up how y'all feeling I'm good bro I literally saw um I saw your video uh yesterday for your new single the one you shot in Miami two turn temp yeah yeah how you feel about it bro that [ __ ] is lit man looks like our Vibe bro cuz we've been to Miami myself and and my partner but we never like experienced the Miami night life we were playing in Florida yeah we're DJing in Florida but two South Africans like the diaspora then West Palm Beach as well yeah DJ also yeah like what type of music y DJ I'm a piano I'm a piano on a piano yeah oh so that's not a DJ you playing the piano what it's a genre it's called a piano no no cuz I'm a piano even you heard like you saw he did the whole Keys thing it has nothing to do with the piano that's where it started but has nothing to do with it these days when when I met charlot man he said the exact same thing he's like oh so you're a podcaster I'm like yeah and then you DJs I'm like no I play I'm a Pian like you're a Pianist man you one talented [ __ ] n it's a genre of music man what kind of genre is that like it's like slowed down house music with a lot of s that African influence that's the only way I can describe it so it's a it's a mix of a marriage house yeah a marriage of house music which originated here at Chicago and stuff and then we slowed it down created a sub genre called guo where guys were sort of rapping but very minimalist raps called guo then the kids were born like in the 2000s late '90s then created a whole meshup of those two genres and it's called Piano cuz a a lot of Americans think it's um afro beats it's not afro beats yeah a lot of the hence I avoided saying afro beats cuz AFR beats is from Nigeria and amap piano is far from afro beat afro beat borrows from am piano now where is amap piano originated from South Africa from the hoods from the Cassis yeah but when I when I was looking at your video bro uh the only thing in my mind was like bro what's a night like out with Jim Jones CU that [ __ ] look lit there [ __ ] everywhere bro um please please describe a night out in Miami with Jim so let's say we going to Miami right now I mean some nice are better than others but been doing it so long it's kind of like the the bare minimum for us to do in Miami just having fun but it still work at the same time like every every I'm I'm not just going out partying for no reason ni like that was we knew what we was kind of getting into we wanted to film a video so we knew we was going to ramp it up a bit take it to the to the highest form going crazy as we could but that actually happened to fall on a big weekend um and one of my dudes was celebrating so everything kind of happened for a reason but yeah Miami could take you for take you for a few a few trips man like okay so so so me and you we get in the car right I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm in Miami I hate you cuz you got a house there you stay there right yeah I got I got I got cribs there so I'm like yo Jim Jones I'm by the strip you know that Miami strip right yeah yeah yeah I mean see that's the thing about Miami when you come to visit Miami that's where people are know at like the strip and things like that I guess stand by Collins and ocean driveing all that people that live there don't really do the strip like that like you just you dig people congregate usually at night time and all the spots that usually go on down there um okay so we got security obviously you got to roll around with security right um yeah I mean that' be the safest thing for me to do so we get out the cut with security when you get to the bouncers are they letting us in cuz it's Jim Jones or are they checking our IDs cuz they've been checking our IDs just to buy beer here bro Che ID everywhere yeah everywhere yeah no I I don't think I produced my ID in since I was a teenager at clubs but yeah you won't need your ID when you with me so we walking in right yeah we going to get in oh do we have a section do we they going to give us a section VIP yeah they going to give us a section we going to get some bottles and let the night ensue got this thing called Power Hour you go to the club maybe like 2:45 to 3:45 in and out no sweat so what's the what's the purpose of that exercise the Power Hour yeah like why would you be in the cloud for an hour why would I be in a club for 4 hours it's Fu I mean I've been part I've been partying since I've been 14 I've been making money to party since I've been 18 I'm kind of burnt out so at this point I try to wait till the club is at the most popping or lest moment which is usually that hour right there and I get to enjoy everything that happened tonight and leave out of there and not be all burnt out what what does your wife say bro cuz you're married man you're surrounded by all these girls like you know I mean I'm going to worry about the women yeah is minimal to the money worry about the money more than anything so so a woman doesn't like give you grief when you come home I yeah you get you get grief all the time if you in a relationship no matter what you do if you had a job on Wall Street you get home you're going to get grief no around it you heard yeah there's women everywhere unless you work in the LGBT Club then you know I mean even there you still going to go home and get like it's no way around it you're going to get you know I mean like yeah so you've never had like been home and you had to explain like yo no man I was just doing music video it's just work like I don't know that good you going to explain yourself in every relationship and things like that I got a good woman at home who understands a job I have and things like that so for the most part but for the most part I'm a very responsible respectable person when when I'm in the streets and when I do have to interact with females and things like that yeah anyway H ladies and gentlemen welcome to another special edition of podcasting chill so CU yeah I am here we're chilling with the [ __ ] Legend Kings of Harlem please make some noise for Jim Jones Jim I gotta say bro I gotta say bro I'm going to be honest with you when I find that your name was GMO geloo gelo I'm like I'm like Jim Jones losing some G points here man what the [ __ ] is that I'm Puerto Rican and a rubian my pops is Puerto Rican the word gelo means William in English is a Spanish Spanish name cuz you know what I was thinking I was thinking that guy who does the show late night you know the short guy who does like the interviews with um this late night comedian man what are the late night shows oh man not uh bad with these oh gosh the late night guy bro uhri or something not Corin O'Brien no not Trevor Noah the other American guy man like uh old new no he's like jimm Kimel Jimmy Kimel jimy he's got that he's got that short guy his name is julo oh I don't I don't I don't got got me messed up I don't even really watch TV like that bro okay I'll be out chasing the money I ain't even got time to do that and if and if I do got some time I'm trying to get a little bit of rest or I'm thinking about money [ __ ] is crucial out here right now you better get to your dollar a lot of [ __ ] about to happen and if you ain't got no coins boy you going to be [ __ ] up you ever been to uh Puerto Rico yeah I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times yeah but business not for the Heritage part of it so like you don't know where like your your your parents were at Familiar of the place where my father's from but I never really got to do the whole go to give with my family understand the roots understand you know I mean like I didn't get to get to that part of it but I've been to Puerto Rico plenty of times you find like that's important like to know you it's definitely important I had this um I did an interview not too long ago about um how important the roots are and get to know where my family from know I mean so we'll start to do that pretty soon so so so your dad you know you know your dad right yeah he's passed away oh okay God bless rest in peace what happened to him he passed away yeah like was it um medical thing or yeah natural causes oh damn like when you young or um maybe when I was uh 23 24 oh damn bro SED to hear that man maybe 26 right before my son passed right before my God bless right before my son Bor bro but you like 47 right now I look good for 47y old man no homo you know what I mean thank you very much like what was what's keeping you looking so good is it the yoga yeah a lot of yoga a lot of Pilates I stay in shape um I'm very uh very big on Fitness um work out like five six times a week um it's one of the best ways to stay young and have better chances of living a long life is that why you do it or maybe there's other purpose like you know a lot of people are in gym for their mental health I mean it's very it's very it's very therapeutic I will say that but my main goal is to look good of course but to give me better chances of living forever bro so how you got into rap um I don't know correct me if I'm wrong right but you used to skip church and go to the train station to to rap like no I never skipped Church to go on the train station and rap I skipped Church to go to the train station and go play video games and run the streets and do everything a bad little kid did from the streets of hollow when we was like S8 and n and things like that I don't know if you know about anything about the subway system in New York but that's the pathway system that get you to all five burrows and we definitely was on the subway which maybe we shouldn't have been but we was a little uh loose um for me rapping actually rapping didn't start later on in life to actually uh C and um they I got a deal and things like that and that was the first time me myself really thought about actually raing cuz I'll be honest with you like um dipet I don't really know much about dipet however I know about you guys individually like Cameron old boy like one of my favorite songs uh jul sna had hear that that was Cameron and Jules and jwes he both was on he both old boy and heon yeah why don't you jump on those tracks man those tracks are massive they was already done I was there for the making of both of them incredible tracks yeah and then how did dipit start start like how did you guys start the whole movement um organically kiss him Harem gr up together um talented kids Cam and Mason BL sh was they already was doing music um Everybody gradu graduated high school I didn't get to go to college they went to college they got kicked out they got kicked out they come moved in with me from that that was a uh foundation for them to D into the music you've been in the game for like 20 30 odd years right been in the game for since 1997 how would you describe the different eras of like um hip-hop right especially now cuz um obviously we all know about the Kendrick Lamar song they're not like us but I didn't know how big it was until I landed in in in America and it's like it's like a movement the video yeah it's like huge it's massive bro yeah it's a big record Kendrick did that shout out to Kendrick shout out to my boy Drake but what do you think about like the evolution of hip-hop in all the different areas you've been a part of what do you mean what do I think about it it's a great thing to be a part of something that um you could only dream of everybody doesn't get a chance to be in this game um I've been fortunate enough to be here for so many genres and errors and seen so many people come and go I've watched the smallest artist to the biggest artist who you thow will be here forever and going um I got stories for days I can tell you about um how I feel about it I feel great I feel blessed you know what I mean I feel lucky this [ __ ] don't it's not promised and for me to still be here is definitely a blessing so in the 90s what was the vibe like man like like what in the 90s as far as what in hip-hop yeah it was it was different um 90s was a great era um one of my favorite errors um that was the era we first first came outside um started to get out deal uh very aggressive era uh no social media um cell phones were just being born um everything that you seen you was something that you could grab on to um artists had to go to the towns we couldn't just get on your phone and music you had to go get you couldn't just have access to it so it was a it was it it was a hunt um you had to touch the Tails kiss babies do radio everything like it was just a different ER but who was around like during that time when you who was around like Tupac was did you like meet Tupac Tupac I didn't get to meet Tupac um Tupac passed away what 95 was that yeah right in big in '97 um no I got to see Tupac do a few times in Harlem um that was dope but um not Tupac passed away before we got to get in the record game but I've seen a lot of a lot of artists in my time from a young age to old age we were partying in clubs as teenagers before we even got a record deal and things like that like we were in clubs since high school and [ __ ] like that so any interactions with Big L he was from Harlem right yeah shouts to Big Al Big Al was definitely from Harlem um 139th NFL Big L um I was one of the Cam's uh close friends um actually put cam on a dope record that started to give uh Cam and bloodshed and and her mcgree her was already popping too but guy gave them some notice when it came to R so when you come out like who's who's popping at that time is it git is it mop D it's way before G when we came out I was like Eminem just dropped oh [ __ ] this is Slim Shady not M like Slim Shady I I remember that that was like cam had dropped and Eminem had dropped DMX had dropped Nori had dropped um Big Pun had dropped lud Chris Luda had just started coming out um Nelly Nelly down down baby yeah shouts to coola love um yeah that type of error shouts to shouts to Fat Joe shouts to Buster they was already in it uh Nas was already in it Jay start going crazy that's when he just started taking over with the 1 million 2 million 3 million 4 um yeah very competitive very edgy um lot of the big dogs um had real roots in the streets um especially in the streets of New York so that put that put a real Mystique on everything when it came to the music um all the events with topnotch um it just was a different feel man it was a heavy heavy dope boy era um this was before the drug dealers wanted to be Rappers that's when the rappers wanted to be drug dealers you know what I mean and and that Arrow was was a very dope high impact trenel and Russian it was a was a great error bro I saw an interview you did correct me if I'm wrong I might be paraphrasing but you mentioned a place called the tunnel or something where everybody would be and you guys were [ __ ] [ __ ] in the bathrooms please please describe that manest cuz a place like that couldn't exist right now bro with all this woke [ __ ] I mean yeah and the cancel cult I would say it was probably the greatest Club The Hip hopers have seen and it was during the 90s era it was the Golden Era um in New York they got you had stories about like Studio 54 in that era when everybody used all the biggest of big used to go to Studio 54 well the tunnel was what Studio 54 was to that era to our era and it didn't make so many people and nationalities and genres and just everybody was like a big pumbo all for the sake of the culture you had some of the flyest models to some of the biggest drug dealers biggest gang bangers I mean every former elicit street life you could think of was in the spot along with the biggest artists and rappers and actors and models that you could find into all athletes um it would definitely like that um and was this like per invite or just like anybody could Rock up there nah you couldn't just rock up there for this is '90s entry was like $100 first of all $100 for a club that was the first time we ever heard of it and that was a lot of money back then especially we probably started in '94 going there teenager so $100 was sto a lot of money in New York at the time sneakers wasn't even costing $100 um to get in the club you definitely had to be connected to know somebody or you had to wait on a long line that usually was a block long um they had like an Express line you could pay $100 to get on Express line that'll get you to the door quicker and then you pay your entry fee um streets was blocked off you was a big dog you was able to bring your cars down there I was able to bring like four five of them if I wanted to um yeah the club was just it was different man pull up to the door security they taking people's shoes off they searching your jacket twisting people inside out like they about to go on the Rikers Island I got to I gave security High files I never took my shoes off and not since high school I when we used go in high school we used to get our shoes taken off and things like that make you feel like you going to the cental bookings and [ __ ] like that so what gave you that clout that allowed you to bring four cars in when nobody or you had to be a big dog to bring four cars in when you could just give them a high five instead of removing your shoes and you're young by then like what gives you that CL I was a big dog since a small pup bro J yeah man what gave you those you know credentials at such a young age to suppos all these people cuz Dr Tre was there yeah you putting in four cars not removing shoes I was a good Lord Biden citizen everybody love Jim Jones even even the girls like would you just rock up they say let's go to the bathroom that's it yeah now that well yeah there was a lot of that going on they had a uh the layout was different first of all the club was a block long a whole city block um wow there was like three other four other clubs within the club or spots that look like clubs um the main floor was humongously big the DJ was like a a lifeguard Tower in the middle of the club um you go upstairs they had a VR big V PE upstairs and then go through a door it open up to the bathroom the bathroom was like a unisex Club [ __ ] had a big ass bar in the middle of the bathroom uh bunch of stalls lined up um that [ __ ] was like a hotel inside Lions cocaine everything yeah they was going down a lot of sex was going down there a lot of a lot of drugs was going down in there um yeah the tunnel was definitely uh a landmark to New York City when it comes to the clubs I I definitely um I always think about that club um it did a lot for me in my life um it gave me a lot of imagination when it came to to the culture and the things I was seeing from a young age as to where I want to be and the direction I want to go in yeah we was going there since high school so when you seeing people like Mike Tyson and all these people coming in big cheer on and just having their way as a kid go out got to go to school the next morning you you in school thinking about that [ __ ] like w man this school [ __ ] [ __ ] this school [ __ ] I need some money and I need to go to the tunnel that's all I want to [ __ ] do that's wild man now can you imagine because we in sa right we're looking at all the videos that you guys are pulling out there like we're looking at this lifestyle and then you F Track to 2024 right M and the P didy thing breaks out right I mean i' rather not even to get into that yeah just don't I rather the do I don't you know I mean like it's not it's not my business oh I mean like this you heard God bless it's too much n yeah and it's not me to have an opinion on certain things cuz I ain't perfect I've been through my own [ __ ] in life and I see a lot of people that have even this doing too much just know that I ain't perfect so I choose not to talk on certain [ __ ] that you know what I mean a lot of other people people been talking about I let them keep doing the talk and I got other [ __ ] to work on I'm trying to work on me being a better person yeah I respect I respect that man but were ever part of any gang or like you sounding like the F never hey we don't the F in South Africa man only PS I'm just playing with you yeah I've been affiliated with the bloods in New York City um ENT Tre um yeah so crazy have you ever been to sa like have you ever been to Africa or um I've been to Africa where did you go uh gaban gille damn G to perform there um I went to perform there but uh got some great friends there they actually had ran the country at the time this is before the big yeah yeah overtaking and stuff like that but I had a ball out there I got to go to an island called Pony um that was a dope experience as they took me to the jungles I got to see some of the indigenous people um it was like a a real um life Awakening like and I got to see how also the rich people live out there also like I got to see both sides like that you know what I mean it was it was a great experience I out there for like a week um I haven't been back since but yeah it was dope you never been to South Africa never been to South Africa bro so the reason why I asked that is because like yo bro like American culture has infiltrated South Africa like you can't believe like you know we got people worshiping you guys you know Jim Jones rappers and everything you so we've got rappers who rap just like you and youd say they're like Bloods and Crips but they've never they've never left sa you know cuz that's how influential uh the culture is right but from you when you see or hear that like what do you guys think like do you think is like some [ __ ] like or like leave don't don't follow the gang life you know what I mean oh as far as that is concerned um there's two sides to that this what you do as a gang member that turns it into something that becomes a crime or whatever that end but the Brotherhood part of it is what the most of us joined up for when we coming up in the hood and need that Brotherhood lean on somebody is that type of camaraderie that pretty much stood for and there's a lot of other great attributes that comes with affiliation or you becoming a part of a gang um it gets twisted up because we all come up in these urban communities and our back is against the wall we don't have no opportunities um it's very dormant uh we on top of each other so naturally testosterone testosterone wins in a lot of these situations where these kids find s in bad situations and for that I would tell people to kind of stay away from this type of life um I don't want to oppose my will we all going to experience what we going to experience but I can't tell you the consequences to this type of Lifestyle could be very dear you heard ethal a lot of people don't get to make it where I made it and Escape that lifestyle that could have put me away or could have put me in the dirt I mean so here as a Living testament to tell you that these consequences are terrible the odds on you making it out of that life in a positive manner are very slim I mean but if you are in that life and you taking it as a Brotherhood and try to uplift your brothers I know there's a lot of people around you that are doing a lot of [ __ ] that that that that that's very crazy you know what I mean if you're a part of that and you got the positive minder then you try to uplift your brother and instill some positivity within them because it's very cold out here so I've always been curious bro like so when that when you you you start getting immersed you know or Affiliated in the gang life how does that affect the conversation at home with your parents like your mom your dad and just the domestic you know Dynamics I a't grow my parents I was a grown man since I was like 15 I made my own money since I was like 16 my grandmother left me in high school man I was raising my Sisters by myself in the projects I hustle every I ever got in my life that's why music saved my life I was so grateful to be able to be next to cam and him getting a deal at such a very young age to be able to still be making money off that [ __ ] right now you were U anr for Warner uh music group yeah I was the director of anr for Warner Music Group um years ago uh shouts to Kevin L shouts to Leo Cohen for giving me the opportunity um great opportunity uh I excelled at it extremely very young with a lot of power but didn't understand what I had at hand um didn't have too many people in my corner that were telling me the things that I should have been doing with that type of position as opposed to some type of weird way be hating you know I mean so that's what happened but as you get older you learn you learn and you move on who did you discover while you were in that position uh I would tell you a story I I know I've helped try s uh they come to tra songs that you know today he's always in he's always in we know why no n but he was a young kid at the time and uh they were actually going to cut him from the label we had a big uh um it's like uh one of them uh some events they be doing not the talent shows the uh well was something like that all the artists had to come perform and then they pretty much didn't know that they was on a Cho and block at the time when I was an executive and and he was one of the artists that they were going to cut and I remember Kevin L specifically ask me yo what we should do with him I'm about to cut him I don't know what to do with him and when I heard him uh singing and I saw him perform I was like this is this is one artist you should keep and did that and now we all tra songs on so many dope ass records is it true you could have signed Drake yeah I had a chance to sign uh I had a chance to do business with Drake um through Allan grum blat um when I was doing business at cotch um it was a different era I didn't understand what Drake I didn't understand the whole the whole thing his whole look when he show me who he was and things like that yeah he's not like us yeah yeah man yeah understand everybody going at my guy I understand the hate man the hate is so phenomenal it's just how this game go man this game is so tricky man these [ __ ] just like females in this game we ain't going to get into that man there's a lot of uh but wait wait wait so so with Drake like are you are you seeing him perform like try songs or like you just heard of the guy just a conversation Allan called me about signing a kid let me hear some of his music um and I was like the kid know how to rap but I don't know what to do with him his image is crazy and him couple years later heard him on a Wheezy mixtape going crazy I was like wow this kid is about to go wham inside of this business and he sure did and you're know trying to call Weezy like yo man I gotta get that kid or something n he was already signed a young money and jcole did you miss on jcole as well I could have signed J Cole bro jcole was in the studio with me every day and at that point jcole I he's he remind me of a knockoff Drake and not to say it like that but that's who he sounded like he came to my studio every day rapping to these Drake beats rapping like Drake Cadence like Drake he could rap his ass off yeah you heard yeah but it was already a drake out there he had the Caesar it was different like two lightskinn [ __ ] might not K when raing the same but you never know what you got in front of you man you dig and those are lessons I I've took with me to moving forward when I see artists and and I hate artists I always give them more than just hearing just just I got to I got to I gotta try to capture the whole picture I make sure I just don't you mean so I don't miss nothing else because I've missed a few people and I've helped a few people um gain a lot of success in in my time in this industry whether it been by me having a meeting with them or me having influence on them or you know I mean so you know and there's never like any animosity like Jake Cole or Drake never came up to be like yo you could have signed me look at me now bro I mean me and Drake is cool as [ __ ] um I see J Cole I don't think he I mean I don't think that's no he some [ __ ] he might want to keep to himself not to be like that sh the co he not that type of artist he's not a you I mean yeah you did I look I look at as we can see I want to mention an artist who like I'm really fond of like I think this guy's [ __ ] amazing musically talented everything that he touched like turned to Gold who's that uh kid k bro K Cy yeah yeah did you help him with his career yeah I birth K Cy wow J me how so bro bir them nobody would have know who K Cy was at all if I a jump on this remix record but it wasn't even remix he wasn't even a nobody like I tell a story all the time I had a inter used to work for me said he got some dudes that do videos they would like to do a video for me told them come let me see they work they show me their videos the first video they showed me was of the kid Cy record he's on the top of a roof some simple video the record sound more wavy than the opportunity for them to do a video I'm like well if you'll get me the beat to this record I Remix this record and then y'all can shoot the video to that record wow and that's what they did and then um the radio station ripped the record off of YouTube and start playing it at Hot 97 and K Cy was born bro why do you think especially about kid Cy cuz from him when I listen to music right it wasn't really no no other kid Cy record besides the one that I was on yeah man he's not in they don't play his records where I be at at all not to be funny wow bro and we listen to him like all that day and night you know remember only record I know yeah it's the only record I know unless it's like a pop record that everybody know and I and I'm even not paying attention to it but he don't his records don't get played nowhere that i' be at not like that unless I go into a different farm and that's the type of music they playing in one of these funny clubs that play fist pump music and pop music he's not into like you dig like they don't play his music in the clubs I'll be at maybe in Vegas and [ __ ] like that but that's not like they not pumping this [ __ ] in live they not pumping this [ __ ] in Atlanta they not pumping this [ __ ] down the Stafford room or you know what I mean like they I'm not saying nothing like that but I don't hear it in the strip clubs I don't hear like you know what I mean so but he's a very successful person with some of the greats like Kanye to put him in a position to win and [ __ ] like that and I think he's way more better as an actor than he is a musician and that's just my POS that's just my opinion he did I seen him in the movie uh about the race car [ __ ] where he was F the playe like he got a lot of Charisma and [ __ ] like that on on camera for what I could see and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean bro I mean for you as Jim Jones to to see these kids you're introduced to them by an intern and then to hop onto that song it's something selfless you know to just give these unknown kids an opportunity of sharing a song with you where do you think that selflessness comes from how was that unknown kid I'm still an unknown kid anytime I get an opportunity that's an opportunity I should be able to give to somebody else bro the fact that you could even come to our podcast shout out man yeah man you don't even know us exactly what you're saying yeah know us what's his name I don't it's fine you know remember those kids who who did the video for him anyway you know remember I remember like that kids that got the biggest African podcast I'm definitely going to know like them is my guys right family right there appreciate I really mean that that sincerely and [ __ ] like that you know what I mean I I bump in too many people in my life and been across too many people in my journey to actually remember everybody's name but the face and the cause and I mean BR I want to understand right the first time you came up with the concept For Love and Hip Hop where were you what was happening that um that was something like uh me and Christy she had opportunity to do uh her own reality show um and actually fell through and that kind of she was kind of she wanted to do that I can see she was eager about doing that when it fell through kind you know I mean [ __ ] with her mood and [ __ ] like that so so so so so the initial concept what was it was just Chrissy just showing like what's life the initial concept was about she had her own thing going on about a group of women that was supposed to do a reality show had nothing to do with me yeah that [ __ ] fell through she lost that opportunity to end up not going people have been begging me to do reality TV for past couple years at the time and I and you reality TV gold man I refused to do it yeah and then when that happened I was like all right I got I'll do this for you and we'll make it about you and females that have to that are involved with artist such as myself and show what the relationship side is when you're dealing with a high-profile artist and you know what I mean how so that's how that started bro and that thing became a monster super super monster like it's still big till this day bro 100% so do you have like uh ownership in that we we were link a all that you know at that time when maybe the second season we just in a position where we refuse to compromise our dignity for anyone or any dollar and sometimes it be like that you know what I mean um but ain't no stress off my back T my hat to him you no but but but we got to talk about that because you see like this podcast um it's blackowned right it's just me and a couple of other people that are involved in the podcast right and we're always striving for ownership so a lot of um Brands and investors have come to try to buy the podcast and we say know cuz like we believe in ownership and telling the story the way we want to tell it right so what went wrong in that because as a hustler I believe like that's your also end goal MH um it wasn't something that I was just a lot of different layers and [ __ ] like that and I was too worried about doing other things and we had the opportunity to gain all ownership 50% of the whole TV show and all that but it still wasn't worth GE bro that's insane you just let go like that yeah bro it's your brain child bro there is no Love and& Hip Hop without you bro I still got a brain you heard yeah those are for people that don't have a brain that lack creativity people that steal things from you lack what you don't have remember that yeah whether it's money whether it's creativity whatever it is they lack what you don't have ultimately they steal from you you heard I mean we didn't even know C beef if it wasn't for Love and& Hip Hop right yeah yeah yeah definitely yeah bro you gave birth to so many many people man like VI their careers that's the god in me that's why I'm always going to be good yeah she man so any other shows that you're working on like in the pipeline that you want to do I was telling you I working on um a late night show a late night um a late night variety show live in studio audience hopefully we'll be filming in about 40 to 60 days um beautiful concept I do I do believe people going enjoy the show um like I was saying I can't do um a podcast is too personal for me and [ __ ] like that and me watching these podcasts um dealing with these artists me myself don't have the temperament for it you know what I mean um I [ __ ] I T my hat to y'all to have to deal with artists such as myself cuz you never know what type of mood they going to come in you know what I me some of these artists have a air to them where they feel like they better than most and they would never sit and have tea with the with the maintenance guy you heard me myself me going to maintenance guy going to smoke blunts before I get on stage [Music] I live my life and and and currently uh before we let you go man what do you think about the state of hip-hop cuz like statistically numbers wise it's not looking good man e beats has played all over New York now there's now the pianos this is this is what they want you to do this is how to get us to go against each other it's all under the same culture umbrella it's afro music ref I'm a piano I'm a piano explain that what do you mean by that bro yeah R&B what do you mean by that ultimately it's all from under the same origin and creativity of the same person from the same colors is all our thing n but let's be honest Jimmy hip-hop hasn't involved bro when I was listening to Eminem what do you want mean what do you mean hip-hop hasn't evolved you guys are still rapping about the same stuff it don't you you missing the point of what hip-hop is yeah hip-hop has evolved to a point that you can be the music genres that you're told them about can be noticed you think that if there was a hip hop that I'm a piano would be noticed or afro Beach would be noticed think about that and not to take nothing away from y because you always have culture and yes that music might be big within the continent of Africa yeah right but to cross over to American Fame and commercialism you don't think that the hip-hop culture played a big part in that that's that that's a different argument now you want to have a different argument I'm telling you the semantics of where we going with this you dig like you talking about uh the the hip hop music is damn percentage that's how they want us to think when it's really not cuz we all uplifting each other you heard you think that the country music that's going on in the black people winning is not because of the hip-hop culture no no no I think no one is disputing that however so then when you say hip-hop numbers are down and damn for who no I'm talking about I know what you're talking about but damn for who tell me who it's down for because I'm still making the money I make yeah I do believe there's still a lot of artist that's making a shitload of money that they make I don't think it went down for them yeah you know what I mean but I understand what you're talking about they say the numbers and then rock and roll genre might be up like I don't really you heard like that's I'm into this business you heard and it's always up for us you heard cuz this is a business we make money out of nothing it's never a downside to this okay and and that's why I'm saying I think we're having two different conversations here cuz the conversation I'm having is I'm having I'm having right is that in as much as he's saying yeah the numbers are down because they orchestrated and whatever I get that right but also that's why I asked do you think Hip-hop has evolved cuz I grew up on hip-hop right and the same things um quote unquote you guys were rapping about in the '90s how can hipop how can hip hop evolved in the same thing that Africa been Africa been going on since the '90s aren't y going still going through the same thing we are huh we are so how could the music evolve when the music ref the time ah okay get you real stories what you want us to rap about [ __ ] that that we don't have ah we talk about [ __ ] we dream about all the time that's the good The Good Life the colorin the Ros we talk about but the truth is how the music going to change when our position hasn't changed when we still going through the same [ __ ] we've been going through okay and y'all being from Africa should know that more than we know that yeah that's facts that's fact go about that own Cod yeah yeah yeah yeah you know are bro that's a valid fact but how do you feel man like you've come from an era where you guys when what you you said in your raps I mean evolved as far as dition as far as what we rap about cuz we still stuck in the same place but as a business it has evolved to one of big time yeah yeah biggest big time money making machines you can attach yourself to this made some of the richest individuals whether you're the rapper the lawyer the executive like that's true you know what I mean the supply chain but then I think that's why you know when you get the likes of a wz coming out and Kendrick Lamar they stand out like a sore thumb because like they are rapping about but that's what music is about to stand out for those who that want to look like everybody they don't get nowhere why you think Dip set was so successful sucessful yeah because we stood out on purpose we don't want to look like or H or sound like no one else m we want yall to above all see us when we walk in the building and hear us when we get on that [ __ ] mic you heard why would you guys the diplomats I never like where did that come from the diplomats the name the diplomats yeah we diplomats oh ah okay that sounded cool no we diplomats we are Harlem diplomats and we take it as that you heard we go to the Embassy when we land in countries you heard all right okay okay okay I I sort of get that bro so in the business and how you still making money right now like from music just like how is it royalties damn you asking a lot of questions bro no I want to know bro I'm so I've got so many questions I want to ask you bro I'll tell you this music is supposed to be used so you can make as much ancillary dollars as you can because the music ain't promised everybody 15 minutes of fame ranges from a small 15 minutes of fame to a run like we having within that minute the 15 minutes the fame you better do a lot of other things to secure your bag because music is not going to be thing you be able to get paid off forever unless you're the DRS and the J that's not even 1% that's you know what I mean so you think about that so you better have some hustle you better learn how to you better have some business sense you better put your credit in order you better do a few things to secure you if you are artist [ __ ] leverage powerful penda yeah man how do you feel man when these kids these days wrap up about you know trying to act tough and rap about stuff they never done like you guys red about stuff you lived I mean I do believe a lot of these kids are going through a lot of [ __ ] that we went through and then a lot of the kids are talking about [ __ ] that they see but most of the kids are all growing up in the same community that all of that [ __ ] is going on so who tells them they don't have the right to talk about [ __ ] that they're not doing when that's still [ __ ] that they're seeing oh sure Ah that's powerful but the problem I have a problem when they rapping like they did it but they just R from somebody else's Vantage Point understand that but most of these artists that you've seen in the game some of your favorite artists been rapping like they did it they never have they never tried none of that [ __ ] till they got famous whoa so it's possible Jay never sold Coke or something I mean I don't know about that possibility I pretty firm in his in in his music that I'm a believer that he did some of that [ __ ] he can talk about just me I don't know you possibilities are possibilities but some things just seem correct you know mean I can't tell you for sure cuz it is music you know what I mean but some things seem correct [ __ ] man bro you got to come out to man you got to you know we haven't had a proper uh hip-hop concert in sa like since 50 N since you are come on back to the city does concerts man ah those are for old people empd the bigest artist in South Africa right now Hip-Hop Hip-Hop uh there's a guy called nastyc but nesty came here he doesn't know know you f poopa who's that nah F poopa Nigerian West African artist massive he used to pop not now for real still massive bigger than like ber boyo still it's different type of music oh stadiums is 50 60,000 people like what is this following this gu what's his name f poop F poop I don't know him bro he's from Nigeria yeah yeah yeah yeah Nigerian Prett pretty big yeah humongous bro how big was was 50 Cent bro like during his Reign man like how big was 50 Cent [ __ ] retardedly big it wasn't nothing bigger than him was Drake before Drake was dring he was oh [ __ ] he did it like it was like 50 was on a run that he never even touched the club bro like [ __ ] never seen him in the club he only did Arenas I never knew too many artist that just did that you dig like the [ __ ] was super massive every [ __ ] Rec he came out with was was going platinum and I'm just telling you the facts you heard and I always got to speak factual no matter how I feel about a person the [ __ ] was on top Super on top it was no way to knock him off his d i remember Jay-Z dropped the diss track on you did you guys resolve that beef I think you were not happy with him as the president of De jam oh man um we never really had a beef um we had some feuds back and forth through the situations that were going on over other people um and me being who I am I had to hold my ground um but to know that he actually talked about me in multiple of his records mean that I was pretty big in his eyes you dig true true cuz I didn't hear him talk about too many people in his career and if he did talk you talk about you on the record that meant something you know what I mean and I was then so for me that I I I took that like what it was like you dig like yeah J doesn't respond to take the time out to say my name you heard if I'm if I'm not that big of a deal to you you would never ever a am I am I right talk about a person you heard true it's it's a form of respect and ackowledge 100% am I right in saying a lot of [ __ ] are scared of Jay-Z bro cuz we interviewed Dam Ian I don't I don't know I'm not a lot of [ __ ] you heard I'm a man so I couldn't I I couldn't tell you that you heard I ain't scared to nobody but God and the dentist and everybody will tell you that that that dentist yeah the dentist got me there you heard you can walk in you could walk we about to fight right now you a dentist walk in you got it you got it like you got it bow down you got it I don't want no smoke let me get out of here M fact word Jimmy before you go man uh what beefs did you have so you had something beef with Jay-Z right no man I just told you we had some feuds stemming from that's beef bro stemming from other things that going on um my problem like it was all part of Us coming up in the game and things were happening we were signing a Rockefeller cam was sign a Rockefeller actually then we got opportunity to Diplomat records um the split between uh Jay and Dame came um artist took sides some took the J side some took the the Dame side which side were you on we was on the Dame side OB Dash yeah Dame Dash that's do you think Dame Dash is misunderstood bro huh you think Dame Dash is misunderstood um too smart for his own good I get that yeah if you had the opportunity again you sometimes being the smartest person in the room could be held against you especially when you want everybody to know that you're the smartest person in the room yeah yeah yeah and I get given a second chance would you still side with Dam never you wouldn't never whoa I never signed a d at all that was no no no like sided with him took his side oh give a second chance I wouldn't have sided with none of them I would we would haveed our [ __ ] business but you learned that with age yeah you heard we had no business butting into that because it wasn't a street beef and this wasn't some [ __ ] that had to do with us ultimately we were holding our [ __ ] down and [ __ ] like that but business-wise if we would if we knew what we knew now we would let them get into that they self y'all can handle that because we got records to put out and music to make and we got our own record label to run you dig and this my hinder what we got going on by us taking sides and that's why I tell people now even when people seeing all the Diplomat [ __ ] like y bro don't don't get in to taking sides with me and my bro because you never know how that might end up and if it end up to a point where we do figure out our situation then I'm looking at you funny now me and you got forever you heard you dig and there are plenty of people that did that and plenty people that didn't and plenty people that showed the same amount of love that he showed to me that it showed to cam when we were going through our imaginary situations and [ __ ] like that cuz it's all imaginary when you know you can figure figure it out now it's a saying that like don't just be in people's business when especially when they've beef and take sides cuz and I I had to learn that a lot I had took me a long time to learn that because of how we come up in the Cod that they supposedly treat us in teach us in the street and [ __ ] like that but sometimes that's not the smallest thing that we can do and then uh push a t did you ever beef with him nah that was some [ __ ] that we was on record um he did some [ __ ] I did some [ __ ] you dig that was it I never followed that I didn't even know did you know there's a pusher T me I ain't got no just know I don't know I know you're from I know you're from Africa and [ __ ] like that but people don't play with me yeah for real and I don't I don't play with people this ain't no playground you heard this is the street it's two ways don't get caught up in a yellow line it's going to be hard to cross bro yeah you heard no I don't trust me I'm from Africa but I saw what happened at the airport so that [ __ ] escalated yeah [ __ ] that was self-defense man God yo bro it looked like that guy was just messing with you bro I wish that could have never happened cuz I was trying to avoid that by all cause but [ __ ] happened sometime man you dig and definitely not not going to allow anybody do anything to me at all bro when I saw that video right like I don't know I just met you today right but I saw when you lifted that guy from the escalator threw him down he literally just went on survival mode bro like it's like there was a button that you switched on and you just like I don't [ __ ] care but yeah yeah no I mean no that's a button that I choose not to push you heard yeah exactly like you can go there quickly I choose to show restraint for a lot of reasons in my life and sometimes it's hard to you dig but where I'm at in life right now I choose positivity or all the other things that come out my way because I know how it is to be negative I was once that negative person that was very aggressive and ready to do something to to you over the minimal alistic of things and [ __ ] like that so I'm blessed to be here to try to be able to show restraint and so so the guy so the guy at the airport you guys on the same plane yeah we on the same plane so you don't have a private jet no I don't have a private jet I'm not a rich man come on Jimmy you made so much money over the years but anyway so you're in the plane what's he what's this guy saying to you like um I don't know man just [ __ ] happens I know just the started from the plane just know that what you see happen on so it starts on the plane you restrain yourself you're like all right cool my dog say whatever you want to say yeah when he gets to the airport I mean the escalator that's when I think he starts hitting you or something right yeah something like that he tried to do something like that and that's what we see man but like I said this is not something that I want to glorify it's not you think he knows who you are um if if he didn't he know now no I'm I'm sorry see sorry cuz some people just provoke I believe he was he was trolling a little bit and things like that which is cool you I mean I'm if if you in New York not time 10 you do know who I am so you know I believe it was a bit of that but God bless man hopefully that they all right hopefully the old man um cool you dig like are you spiritual cuz you mentioned God a lot man yeah I'm very spiritual very spiritual very spiritual I've been my whole family is spiritual and what does that mean in an American sense cuz um us as African for me it means a lot of different things um I was told what the church was as a young age as they drag you to church every Sunday your grandmother your moms and your family and things like that and you really don't understand what that is from that young but as you get older and you go through certain things and you make it through certain things you understand that there is a God and everybody has a relationship with their God different and sometimes going to church doesn't mean that you love your God any less or he loves you any less you dig and you say spiritual I'm very spiritual I say my prayers as much as I can sometime two three four times in a day you dig man doesn't take away from what I do and who I am because I'm still in the line for everything else everybody is in but I know every day that I'm able to wake up and every day I'm able to make a dollar and every day I'm able to keep living the life that I am I should be thankful you heard cuz that's not just me that's a higher vibration that's definitely a God you dig and I'm well aware that I've escaped many things in life that Lord knows I should not be here but then again I should be here cuz he put here for a reason he gives his toughest battles to his strongest people what the Bible say you heard and I've made it through some very tough battles which are minimal to some of the people that I had next to me in their battles you know what I mean so it's like we all got to figure it out Jim Jones thank you so much man and thanks to God for bringing you here man definitely I appreciate for making time for us bro thank you man we appreciate you tired when you got you I appreciate the fact that you could even make it man got any last question yeah man bro you said you've gone through some tough battles and you mentioned how you lost your dad at like 26 but also that you you pretty much raised yourself from the age of 15 you know from that relationship or lack of it like has it affected how you father your children 100% this made me the best father I could be but me my relationship with my father was always a great one even though he wasn't there because every day he wasn't I love them even more I wasn't one of them kids that was bitter you dig I understand that everybody went through something and at that age what he was going through there was a lot of drug addiction and I knew that from a very young age I understood what drugs was and how they were tearing up my family I never held that against my father and I was just blessed able to get back with him before he passed away so he could see that his son was making something out of himself at that time I was already signed to her uh we think we just got the Rockefeller deal so it was a very big deal for me to be able to get back with my father to show him that me somebody that you should be proud of and I know him looking down right now got be like damn I did that so you know and that's how I feel but then in turn TR here my son I don't you know I mean like I just you know mean I pride myself on making sure that I I turned my son into somebody that was way better than I could ever be you oh man yeah that's my guy shout out to you man is your son still wearing Crocs to you br he's a Croc guy you heard yeah Crocs for Life bro Crocs for Life jumping out the beam with a fresh paer Crocs on I don't want to stand him Jimmy before you go your top five rappers all time my top five rappers of all you got to give us your top five bro yeah Tupac definitely Jay-Z Drake um Drake he not like us by default of course um rock cam no Eminem No No whoa not even big you from NY and not to take nothing away from him he's extremely nice it's retardedly nice when it comes to rap but I listen to artists that kind of you know I mean do something for the life that I live and kind of what I've been through and most of these artist or artist that I'm talking about people that you know what I mean like [ __ ] better stop hating on my boy Drake all of a sudden all this Drake land I get it I get it you ain't like us let's not do that let's not forget the 15 years he been spanking [ __ ] around this [ __ ] all all all over this [ __ ] all the alley he been giving most of these artists that are now seeming to be turning on them let's you know let's not some of them gave him their best hits let's not forget the big picture here and [ __ ] like but what the hip-hop culture and this game is built on competition so I yeah but what is he with it you heard you better put your best foot forward but what has Drake given back to the culture oh that you so love here we go um what is he giving back to the culture I seen him take a lot of people on tour and turn them even richer than they already was I I seen him give a lot of people hits that they would have never had if he wouldn't have got on a record things for the culture that wouldn't have happened in turn records that we would have never knew about him to record that the culture love and things like that I mean he's not from here Canada from the hood I don't believe he owes America too much but the monster that give back to where he's from maybe we should ask about what has he done in Canada giving back to his community as opposed to what he giving back to the culture of the United States when this is not where he's from and I think that's the Divide right there now if we talk about what he's done in Canada and if it's not up to par then maybe we can talk about oh you dig but that's I think that's for the people of Canada you dig like yeah cuz but it's the people of America in the hood who made him of course you heard about but that he didn't grw up in America he didn't grew up here you heard so if you was an artist from Africa yeah like boy yeah do you think bnab boy has responsibility what do Niger of United stes n I'm taking it back home bro super duper big yes but that's what people then will call a culture vulture cuz you come into a space you know do what the people of that space do benefit from them is is is you understand what we doing like it's bro it's not because he's not take so he's not taking benab boy is Nigerian it's a Nigerian culture that is now popular in America so Drake took an American culture and enriched himself but what he's saying is that he doesn't owe anything to America cuz he's not from yet right okay right yeah I mean [ __ ] he's got no obligation Fair argument he got no obligation Fair argument yeah like he lived if he lived like I don't I don't that's how I see it you heard like that's how I see it you dig but all these [ __ ] we talking about are filthy filthy filthy rich off the opinions of men you heard what we're doing right now just put more money in their pocket both of them woo okay so should we should take this out never never but what I'm just trying to tell you is how this game is played yeah you heard yeah geez man the more we talk the more they get paid the loser still gets paid too if there is a loser I don't think there's a loser when they all getting Millions off of this [ __ ] I don't think I mean like and I understand end all be all in the whole circle of it but I'm I've been in this [ __ ] for so long I'm miss you can see the politics of really get you to understand of what's really going on and [ __ ] like that this [ __ ] don't pay me a dollar to talk about it yeah hey man how tight you with Joe Bon he calls us those African guys with numbers oh yeah yeah yeah Jo this my guy buts what's up man he cool yeah he's an instigator definely know how to get under people's skin yeah I've known Joan for so long [ __ ] like that um I'm proud of him put himself in his position a whole new Lane to make a shitload of money um where it stem from the culture this what I'm talking about all the ancillary things that you need to get going on if are a artist of some type of success you got to use that to get where you want look at Joe used his startom and rap no matter what it was to able to finesse a whole new Lane of podcasting that true he's pretty big in damn near one of the forefathers of it from our culture right y'all started before him or after him we started after him but now we have more numbers than him hey doesn't matter no numbers do matter I mean no J and get num I'm cool with that but you won't be never be the considered the forefather of this whole no no no no no no no you dig 100% yeah it's Jo Joan numbers is cool I'm cool with that you get paid and I know what's a race you might be number one you heard yeah yeah but you still never be the forefather always going to have that under him like I've created this Lane for your how I feel about Ling hip hop yeah of course I got that under my belt that's mine y can never say that was yours at all yeah okay how much money you made off of it and [ __ ] like that at the end of the day you it's mine you heard Still My still mine so we always ask anybody any guest that we get on the show in closing what do you want to be remembered as man when it's all said and done I want I want to be remembered I want I want them to know that I gave more than I took because I was able to take a lot in my time amen just like that sh hey man I wish you put me on love and& hip-hop bro they got the African love of Hip Hop they got Jamaican love of Hip Hop they got they got any type of Love of Hip Hop we need the South African love of Hip Hop thanks Jim man shout out thank you bro I appreciate you man thank you we appreciate podcast and chill we out of here man boom peace welcome to Black excellenc do not fear for if you do just sip on some Grand and if you still do ask ourselves what would M [Music] do when they ask you do not fear for if you do just say an TV this is the the medicine of censorship this is the pill which one is that one podcast and chill	100% yeah it's Jo Joan numbers is cool I'm cool with that you get paid and I know what's a race you might be number one you heard yeah yeah but you still never be the forefather always going to have that under him like I've created this Lane for your how I feel about Ling hip hop yeah of course I got that under my belt that's mine y can never say that was yours at all yeah okay how much money you made off of it and [ __ ] like that at the end of the day you it's mine you heard Still My still mine so we always ask anybody any guest that we get on the show in closing what do you want to be remembered as man when it's all said and done I want I want to be remembered I want I want them to know that I gave more than I took because I was able to take a lot in my time amen just like that sh hey man I wish you put me on love and& hip-hop bro they got the African love of Hip Hop they got Jamaican love of Hip Hop they got they got any type of Love of Hip Hop we need the South African love of Hip Hop thanks Jim man shout out thank you bro I appreciate you man thank you we appreciate podcast and chill we out of here man boom peace welcome	8	6	4	100% yeah it's Jo Joan numbers is cool I'm cool with that you get paid and I know what's a race you might be number one you heard yeah yeah but you still never be the forefather always going to have that under him like I've created this Lane for your how I feel about Ling hip hop yeah of course I got that under my belt that's mine y can never say that was yours at all yeah okay how much money you made off of it and [ __ ] like that at the end of the day you it's mine you heard Still My still mine	sh hey man I wish you put me on love and& hip-hop bro they got the African love of Hip Hop they got Jamaican love of Hip Hop they got they got any type of Love of Hip Hop we need the South African love of Hip Hop thanks Jim man shout out thank you bro I appreciate you man thank you we appreciate podcast and chill we out of here man boom peace welcome	8,6,9	7,5,8	8	6	9	7	5	8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-Xsjx4VTfU	4,038	q-Xsjx4VTfU	2024-06-27 00:00:00	[Music] this is big fact Network [Music] exclusive live from the culture lab it's time for big facts big bank is here baby Jade is here DJ Scream is here we're welcoming today a comedian that's very funny you see him online give it up for scam lightly on big facts what's up what's up what's up bro you good man yeah man I have made it man so what you say you scam your way on the big F tell tell us how you got on big F I want to hear the whole story yeah so look man I got damn I had hit bank account but goddamn Bank was so cool about we worked some [ __ ] out and then goam you know I mean I owe them so so this a transaction yeah this transaction I just [ __ ] with you no man for real like shout out my manager uh y sh man brother and you know I mean we been had linked up like I came and did skit on y'all um on the podcast what that was like about a year ago yeah so U man just kept working kept grinding and boom back here so is your Origins comedy or what was you doing before that no I was in some whole other [ __ ] some whole other [ __ ] you can talk about or you can't talk about I can't allegedly I say allegedly but now for real I was like uh I was um in the streets just like I ain't G to say everybody else but pretty much you know I demographic I came from the same [ __ ] PIV it and I was always doing I was always like stupid my whole life I can say that I was slow I was slow so I been I've been should have step in comedy but I kind of running from it you know what I mean cuz I Ain I ain't I was I wasn't in no position to be laughed at at the time so when I finally took it serious sat down two months that [ __ ] was out of here at what point did you know you was funny man since I was little I ain't gonna lie like I said I always been a CL clown I always been a [ __ ] roast and always I I I had to fight [ __ ] I roast so good you know what I mean so I always had that aspect to me so I just when I really took it serious like man I'm going to do this comedy [ __ ] like full-fledged nothing else I'm sit down and do it like I said that sh was out of here but I I will say like I I do feel like it chose me instead of me choosing it you know I mean do you think it's important to be able to do like other other types of comedies like AC in the movie Stand Up and all that type of stuff too or or or or is it if you're a one lane type of comedian is that cool in your opinion I I mean I feel like whatever you comfortable with see what I'm saying because a lot of people ain't comfortable with that stage you know I mean I didn't did all of it so like I don't know like for me I didn't get all of it you know I mean but for everybody I like stand up ain't for everybody you know I mean that [ __ ] a whole different monster you know I me why you say that because it's like like it's [ __ ] that you got to know like you got to know time you know I mean you got to know punch lines you got to know how to build a joke up you know you got to sit traps type [ __ ] I mean so it's like an art front for like it's actually some people that probably ain't even funny in real life but they comedians you see what I'm saying cuz they just know the art of telling jokes ver being just naturally funny like you might be naturally funny and get on stage and can't you that's true just how some of these rap [ __ ] be lying boom same way but they sound good exactly that [ __ ] sound good [ __ ] make [ __ ] sound good you go get some money yeah how it go what's the inspiration for your skits uh cuz a lot of it seem like day-to-day just man really just like life and um me like because and I say that because [ __ ] I'm damn near like a psych patient like you know I mean my mama was a paranoid schizophrenic so I come from like my mind be racing so this [ __ ] like therapy for me I just get to get out [ __ ] that's just in my mind all day which is some stupid [ __ ] that I just be thinking about so now I get to relay that on on on camera so let me answer this so just going back to what you said about your mom how was it growing up in a household with somebody that was battling mental illness like that uh definitely a struggle definitely definitely a struggle like uh I want to say my mom probably was your dad there yeah yeah actually my dad raised me like um okay RP my dad um he actually like like when they split my dad took me so I ra with my dad you know what I mean like okay and and he was a old man like my dad was born 1929 he was in World War II real [ __ ] on God everything my dad born in 1929 [ __ ] in World War II so I so so I be having more on God how how old was your daddy when he had you he had me he was like 50 something okay that that add up yeah yeah yeah okay yeah I'm talking about dead that [ __ ] was in World War II so so he put certain mors and [ __ ] in a [ __ ] that I know people ain't even got no more you know what I mean so that's why people be thinking I sound how I do because you know what I mean like I was raised with a Elder you know I mean that [ __ ] was a real Elder you see what I'm saying so with him he was like the um coherent parent of the group you see what I'm saying my mama was wild Young illness type [ __ ] so my daddy was like the one that took us and raised us you see what I'm saying but growing up in the house with that [ __ ] yeah that [ __ ] was a struggle I think that's why I get my comedic comedic side front cuz my mama she Ain have no fut she'll say anything to anybody at any time and like people didn't know she was you know I mean she was like she had the illness or whatever and they thought that she was trying to be funny or like but it was funny though it was funny though I can't C like my MMA was funny as hell though like rip she was funny as hell she Ain what she'll say anything out M like a like a child worse like a adult that know better but still say some [ __ ] like like for real like your homeboy might come over there she might just look at your homeboy and say some [ __ ] like I bet your dick little out of nowhere real [ __ ] where you from originally originally I was born in tusi Alabama I was born in my grandma house 46 yeah I went to school down there oh you did yeah they told you with the locals oh I'm cool with a couple of them shouts the street of Frank Walkin some of them so was your daddy a part of the experiment that they did down there no uh no my dad U he was from Chicago so he had came later but yeah Tusk experiments like a lot of my family members and [ __ ] was affected by that like d yeah did they ever give them reparations for that I think they just now I think they just yeah yeah they did yeah they did yeah they they got reparation for it but it was only like a small group of them left by time they did get to him what you think about this [ __ ] cat you watch that cat we [ __ ] yeah hell what you think about that I think it's a lot of truth to it like I don't know I don't know them folk person I don't want to say too much cuz godamn I ain't trying to get black ball before I get I just talking [ __ ] but now I I I definitely I see that [ __ ] here like you know I mean it's like a you know kind of like a little pecking order gatekeeping type [ __ ] like people gatekeep in all rounds no matter how big small so I think every city got that [ __ ] and then you get to the industry they got their own Gatekeepers so or you feel like they be trying to hold [ __ ] out you think you think that's possible yeah well I ain't going to say it I I think if you weak if you weak it'll stop you like [ __ ] like you know what I mean if you don't say [ __ ] I'm make it anyway know I mean it can scare you off and you just like I seen some with um the Wayne brother he was like somebody said something to him and he start doing stand up for like 10 years so that [ __ ] can really you know what I mean shake you in the wrong way you the whole body if you let it you know I mean but I feel like if you're a [ __ ] that come from nothing I truly feel like what's for you is for you though that's true I don't know it might be harder for you I don't feel like no n can keep you out yeah it might keep you out of they Circle yeah that's what said they situation yeah but this [ __ ] too big man you can make a way man I be [ __ ] excuses I feel but I I I feel the way you feel but I also feel like if the right [ __ ] sprays your name then it's going to be I don't want to say next to Impossible but it can be super [ __ ] overly extremely difficult in mostu but it's it's it still B down to B down to how hard you go look at the [ __ ] that they do spray the [ __ ] going hard about this [ __ ] man yeah but [ __ ] look how I look that's true look look at the [ __ ] who it's a it's a it's a lot of casual to that [ __ ] what I'm saying it's a lot of casualty to that [ __ ] because I feel like you laid down at the end of the day that's true that what I said what I said like if you weak you going to fold you going to fold in on yourself that [ __ ] really be mental like if somebody get in your head and you don't get that [ __ ] out Bo like [ __ ] what's the [ __ ] name B Simon that [ __ ] went what number one FK got in that [ __ ] head he Ain like performing to his best n they ain't getting they ain't getting his head he want it he W it he W it yeah sometimes CU I I don't really know a lot about that [ __ ] I just know R talked about him in the song he said like Ben Timmons I ain't going nowhere or something yeah he had a hell of a agent he had a hell of a agent they giving him money based on what they thought he might be able to do what I'm saying he ain't never do it though but the [ __ ] it paid him based off of his potential exactly but he got man he got gunshot BR the man wouldn't even shoot the basketball man that's in your head he wouldn't even take a shot n he ain't shoo bro cuz he wasn't going to make it man he didn't shoot it he could he could he didn't even drive I'm just saying if okay let's take Ben Simmons maybe I'm being in a homer and let's take Ant-Man all right Antman shoot that's what I was saying last night what I said what I said if you weak I'm saying like he mentally KN up it's you right I see what you say you say take the shot forget that like an is from the west side that dog I know to do matter [ __ ] lay down everywhere it's a [ __ ] laying down on every side of town same how you name one [ __ ] that stood up I bet we can a fire [ __ ] that done laid down laid down [ __ ] [ __ ] up Z they ain't do nothing to Zion he did it to himself I mean who Z the big dude who be smashing the porn or whatever Zion Williamson the boy can jump though like boy can jump yeah you getting paid to jump jumping don't win championships and games but it's early too though early super early he got he got a minute man he still got he got time to like when did he get signed once you he been in the league six years that ain't ear I been in about six years yeah I'm thinking like three n he been playing hurt two of them oh yeah that's what it is that's that's what it is that's is my opinion when when it comes to like the athlete [ __ ] some people just ain't got it but that's what I'm saying like people I think a lot of people put emphasis on it like that [ __ ] just everywhere that [ __ ] ain't that [ __ ] real rare but if but if you're not it and then on top of that you don't have self-esteem then like you're going you're going to flop every time you going to f in on yourself like you going to be your worst enemy you going to godamn you're going to implode facts hey what what a character scam come from man this [ __ ] so crazy so the the interview that future did with Kevin Sam I watched that interview I like well that [ __ ] don't give a [ __ ] about [ __ ] just just his demeanor how he was just like yeah I me a [ __ ] by like I like but this [ __ ] just so nonchalant so I was like damn what if the scammer was like that like [ __ ] just pull all kind of moves don't give a [ __ ] about the consequences so and it's crazy I watched I I the interview was on TV and I just like hey I want to shoot a skit by the Atlanta scammer and then in like 10 minutes I just he like he need a name I was like [ __ ] scam like Le oh like scam likely I'm like no not likely but like Le like l e e so I just ran with that [ __ ] and that [ __ ] just stuck so hard that people like people don't even call me by my name they just call me scam introdu you fact so I like [ __ ] scam so I just ran with it man and that [ __ ] just naturally like took off because I feel like you know that's what we living in anyway what you think about SC game I mean [ __ ] is though you go with your move like you had if it made sense yeah yeah [ __ ] me too if it made sense like I feel like I did everything it is to do in the streets like everything like a [ __ ] that played all positions in that [ __ ] I had been a fake ass little pimp before godamn s everything it is I did everything so [ __ ] why not riding around that man we was making no money man but that [ __ ] him [ __ ] the hard [ __ ] listen [ __ ] listen sh but then the crazy thing is just talking to them folk like when you talk like real PE and [ __ ] they be like you got to coach the [ __ ] talk I ain't got the patience to keep talking to no [ __ ] about some [ __ ] just keep on telling you some [ __ ] that you should know [ __ ] that I go get me some drugs or something baby this [ __ ] slow oh when with that turning point though huh like the Turn Point like man I'm just feel cuz you always legit now right yo for sure why he looking around I won't be on big face for real no I am though we in the turtle what it was though like you know [ __ ] I ain't going to lie but you know the pandemic had [ __ ] boom [ __ ] was eating good like you know I mean so I had enough money to where I was like damn I can kind of ease up off this you know I mean this [ __ ] cuz at first like I said I I never wanted to do comedy because of that like I mean I was dealing with [ __ ] in the street I ain't really want no [ __ ] to feel like I was no funny [ __ ] you know what I mean when you dealing with certain amount of money so once I once I felt like I made enough money then I was like [ __ ] I can kind of start doing comedy like you know doing my skits and [ __ ] so like I said I had sat down like um my turning my main turning point though was and this is trueu I had went to Miami for new years and [ __ ] so I had on took a I thought was edible so I ate a edible but I don't know what for issue was like it it had to be like strs or something yeah cuz boy I had the worst trip of my life [ __ ] like I'm I'm I'm zooed you know you you know when you get too high you think you about to die and [ __ ] that's what I was on I'm like well I'm I'm G I'm out of here so so I walk to the gas station to get some milk drunk drunk drunk a gallon of milk that man that [ __ ] only wors when you swallow dope no no that milk workk any natural high and that milk work that sh why the [ __ ] y'all ain't G me milk that day I was TR to die want to see it you milk what you talking about let no El kill you bro you just tripping but that how that [ __ ] had me that [ __ ] do that [ __ ] take you to a psychedelic listen boy that [ __ ] had listen I swear to God on everything I got back to the room after drinking the milk [ __ ] I lay on the bed I'm like I'm going to die I just Clos my eyes I'm in the universe I'm just in the universe like but I can see my body on the bed with my ey closed I owe my eyes I'm back in the room close my eyes I'm in the universe so I start seeing myself on stage with a microphone like that was astro Projection what when you had that where you supposed to be at though that's what I was saying like but I think what it is though I think it's it's like a unified Feld and you see all the possibilities that you can be right so that was me in the future looking back at me like see what I'm saying even with Dreams yeah exactly like [ __ ] was telling me come on like do what we on so I'm like man I'm going to do this [ __ ] then I got back to Atlanta boy my cousin was standing with him but [ __ ] tow tow a hole in my head thing gone you yeah why part me empty [ __ ] gone all [ __ ] gone you know I mean see make sense yeah I see see yeah we CH we chopped up and [ __ ] y chopped it up yeah I mean you was just like no regular chop up like you know I mean but you know I mean like like what what the excuse was why he broke in your [ __ ] no I say he was standing [ __ ] that [ __ ] a break in that [ __ ] lit there I'm saying where the excuse was taking out with the [ __ ] uh I don't even remember so about like he probably felt like I owed him or some [ __ ] yeah but it probably wasn't that you know what I mean but like he was staying with you and you owed him it be like that sometime the [ __ ] kind of [ __ ] but but you just know like you know I mean like [ __ ] was just getting out the fed you know [ __ ] PTSD like you know what I mean home to steep so you know what I mean home you doing stand up yeah yeah I didn't I didn't did stand up I did step away from it though cuz like I said it's it's so much politics and that [ __ ] and that [ __ ] ain't paying nothing they think it ain't paying nothing I got a little something for you want do [ __ ] show yeah we September I when is it April May damn that's May May 4th Saturday May 4 okay you know I got I gota get back on stage that [ __ ] A that [ __ ] ain't just like no just you know I mean that [ __ ] real real you got to get back up St you just got to get in your bag right yeah yeah but but it's like like I said like it's about time so like that's why you do it every night so you can got damn sharpen your your skills no we had um we had my man on here man don't you you got to get you gotta got damn we just had Henry up here right oh yeah yeah Henry my boy yeah Henry said the same [ __ ] like you got to exercise [ __ ] going and 100 50 people rooms 25 people in the room you still gota go work your material even if you comeing in [ __ ] working on us yeah for real people you got to work that material bro if a n GNA do this [ __ ] n gota do it all the way no but see that's what I was saying like so I noticed like if you try to do that and the content one of them going to suffer see what I'm saying so why you say that because like the amount of time that you got to take like like [ __ ] what's her name did it country Wayne did it but he he I'm saying like them [ __ ] beat but but what I'm saying like once they did one of them surer I ain't going to say like the quality of the content serer but the amount that you putting out going to go down you got to balance it at that point you got to balance it yeah I know it but I'm saying like far as like especially like now because [ __ ] gate you see what I'm saying so it's still like I ain't like [ __ ] don't like internet comedians for real that I to say really respect yeah exactly like you get chance pause edit you get a chance do all that [ __ ] want that [ __ ] on the spot but but it's the thing though it's like she like they it's kind of like the old mindset like how [ __ ] was Pass Out CD ain't no more CD so [ __ ] don't know how to transition you see what I'm saying so it's kind of like that like they be want you to just only do stand up rooms and [ __ ] but it's like I got the internet why would I go touch a whole another see what I'm saying like you can reach way more still though them [ __ ] but [ __ ] Ain't Going [ __ ] [ __ ] don't really internet comedian oh but iig who like being the trench you know what I'm saying the people do like I love it yeah but I'm saying like comedians who gotdamn know where they got it from gotam getting them $20 nights godamn [ __ ] [ __ ] that got a drink you know saying [ __ ] get a [ __ ] [ __ ] like them nigg feel like they got it out the mud but that's still like a yeah [ __ ] up um perspective but I get it you know what I'm saying for what they feel like what they put in every comedian should put in but [ __ ] something it's the luck of the [ __ ] gu what I got this [ __ ] out the mud too I got this [ __ ] with a phone and a goddamn ring light a cheat one at that godamn exactly you know I mean cord breaking off that [ __ ] I had to wire that b back together put some tape around it so it's the same [ __ ] it's just like I said it's people perspective like you know what I mean and me honestly I ain't going to give a [ __ ] what another [ __ ] think about me like [ __ ] I ain't in it to be you know I mean I mean do you feel do you feel sometime like man yeah I need I need to goam go and get in that I need to go on and Mer that part so then let them know I can do it do you ever ever get but I did I ain't going to lie I did you see what I'm saying like I performed at a you know what I mean like a at a high stage what you know I mean [ __ ] some big dogs from the city like boy you got it know I mean it just like I said that [ __ ] wasn't making no sense for me and it's taking away from some [ __ ] that do make money so what I'm saying like I'm making money on Instagram and Facebook and [ __ ] like that so I'm making way more money than I would be trying to do taking a risk anything $200 [ __ ] you got to get into it with anything n that [ __ ] your security none of that [ __ ] yeah that [ __ ] A you been spank the [ __ ] on camera for what hell cuz the nigg [ __ ] G they move yeah cuz I ain't going to think I'm black out a whole another side be like oh n that [ __ ] don't even want that turn the big to workout what it name big Q got turn the big Q onig ass yeah I don't even want to play n but you get what I'm saying though yeah that [ __ ] that that don't make sense to be cuz I went gotam I would just say if I I want to be a rapper right there I would do my [ __ ] online I wouldn't be at no open mics that [ __ ] dangerous yeah what I'm saying like [ __ ] like like you not going to gain no fans from that [ __ ] like I had a homeboy yes you are no you yes you are fans from what okay from from like open m stand up talk open mik rapping or you talking about stand up comedian stand up comedian I'm saying you make no money off no you might not make no money off of it but you like people will put your name with your face and it'll like help increase your family I agree that but well you got to get on the internet the internet no the internet is definitely over it but I'm saying touching the people is is going to make a difference also but most of the people outside [ __ ] but then what I say though like other crew y'all rapping my bad J y'all rapping other crew other open mic and you f then we got to get into it cuz you f yeah how this [ __ ] go comedian comedian okay we on the same show together [ __ ] mad at me cuz I just was funny as hell y that'll get you [ __ ] up real talk like cuz then they ain't going to want to put you on their show you see what I'm saying because every like I feel like most comedians everybody want to feel like the funnyest [ __ ] in the room just like okay a artist right let's say if two artists in the room and one get to playing his music the other [ __ ] going to get be ready for him to cut him music off so he can play his [ __ ] like come on man r that [ __ ] up so I can play my [ __ ] my [ __ ] F like your [ __ ] cool but my [ __ ] so it's the same thing you know mean it's the same [ __ ] and doing open mics [ __ ] steal your jokes I had a [ __ ] steal my whole [ __ ] and do the [ __ ] the next day because I was like I ain't know you see what I'm saying so they we was talking about that yeah so they'll tell you like don't do open mics and comedy cuz writers and [ __ ] be in the crowd to Ste [ __ ] jokes remix so it's a conspiracy yeah GNA remix your [ __ ] yeah like he ain't going nowh with that he funny I see what he Tred to do I'm show how to do it like your delivery or something might be off what I'm saying you how to do you a real funny ass [ __ ] get your [ __ ] too fast I know how to do it I know how to perform the joke better than and then boom got some of they [ __ ] with your [ __ ] that [ __ ] is that [ __ ] out of here TV so it just this [ __ ] just like I said sh just like a rap game you had to skit one time about like dating in Atlanta and [ __ ] what's your like what's your take on dating in Atlanta man have fun God damn don't take nothing serious like this [ __ ] ain't serious out here for real what you mean I feel like this [ __ ] a big ass high school for real I mean like Atlanta man I I would me personally I wouldn't like for love and no [ __ ] out here like for real like I feel like if you ain't already got it like new generation New Age day this [ __ ] over with like if you ain't already got love and marriage and wife and all that [ __ ] over with in Atlanta as of today it's a rap what you saying in a certain age group or just period or just period because everybody mind mind frames have change you see what I'm saying everybody mind is right now she it's okay to hurt whoever is long as is you happy like everybody feel like everything Justified as long as I'm looking out for me and I'm happy then she it's whatever it's cold real you saying no no consideration for nobody nobody if you look at everything everybody talking about online and all the toxicity [ __ ] everybody really just out for self and it's okay like like everybody promoe it's okay to be for yourself like no team ball no nothing I ain't going to lie I I help a lot of people though but I I I I've been on that lately like [ __ ] that I got to figure me out cuz that's the way the world live bro yeah but that's what I'm saying saying that the way the world live like whoever with me like this [ __ ] we doing yeah yeah this me figuring me out I can't worry about goddamn going play goddamn tennis yeah you know what I'm saying cuz my my buddy want to play tennis all day ain't no money in tennis bro for me I need to be right here doing this [ __ ] so I got to do what serve me I don't I don't knock that so that's why that's why I'm saying like the D SC sh like that like [ __ ] ain't nobody really going to stick it out with no [ __ ] till it's too late you see what I'm saying like that's how I feel anyway from my experience and your ass ain't lit ain't got nothing for you so you saying like the ho going anyway going gone they gone get the elevator with that SM that B that b he don't know what you say oh yeah really that that Clyde Christian but you know what I mean CDE be G out of here what's that come on what floor you stay on oh seven whole time [ __ ] paying for the [ __ ] all kind of [ __ ] tricky you don't think it's a circle though I think you don't think it's the circle like it's like that circle of people he right see see see you you speaking from where you at he's saying like outside the circle is different though but I but but this the thing I say with men it might be you see what I'm saying like for the for the men that's outside that Circle they don't know what we talking about see what I'm saying they don't but all the women know because they all going to get brought into that Circle see what I'm saying all women been out somewhere and a [ __ ] didn't caught they ey [ __ ] with some money and they gone they gone cuz Atlanta like Atlanta like people it's a wom that it's a wom that be it's a women that be up in Chastain Park at some [ __ ] Neil Soul jazz [ __ ] that be out the way yeah you talking about a different Circle CC you talking about the hook you talking about the Hooka Circle no uh I'm talking about all walk the [ __ ] is the hookah Circle CC the hookah lounges and [ __ ] n I'm talking about all no but I mean it's it's people like it's people that go to the hookah lounges the hookah Circle or whatever they got their own money that's not giv a Fu about what another [ __ ] got but it's not that it's not also just about money see that's what like I ain't saying like what it is SC it's just that stuff on like it's just that stuff like you know certain people got that stuff right so what I'm saying is like and the reason why I say that the reason why I say that because I I watched like when I was a young [ __ ] my partner this [ __ ] had everything this [ __ ] uh drop head godamn benty truck all this [ __ ] I done watch every type of woman from every type of Walk of Life come in the [ __ ] spot and he tell them folks straight up the [ __ ] make Ann hey look you ain't going to suck like at the end of night you can get up and get the [ __ ] out and I Ain never see not one woman get up and leave like got me [ __ ] up and I seen the [ __ ] with doctors lawyers them them so-called Neo Soul [ __ ] I ain't never seen not one of them get up and say no [ __ ] up never by them folks oh now you put yourself in that position now what he saying is listen it's hoes everywhere yeah I'm talk about scientist nurse doctor D judges whatever hoes women going to be women some of them but what he's saying is he's saying the on they don't even allow theyel to pull up on bro that's what I'm saying cuz we talk it don't matter what walk a life it's still a select few women she can be outside and still won't pull up on you I know some [ __ ] who ain't going I know a lot of them going but some of them ain't going but see that's a lot of them that ain't going some of them ain't going I'mma keep it 100 he take that right [ __ ] but some of still but okay what what you said take cuz we all know son like damn ain't nobody like everybody compar like but you ain't nobody [ __ ] who we know [ __ ] nobody but like you said you said take that right [ __ ] right now knowing how competitive Atlanta is you don't think that [ __ ] somewh in the crowd know he in the crowd but the thing about it is she know that but it like I a listen listen I'm going to V with some of them CU I know some of them bro just because and that's then the one to elevate too yes like we like it's it's like going every circle of [ __ ] all my budy is sniper diapers yeah so we going to know who done smashed her like what about her like [ __ ] send your picture around yeah that what [ __ ] do like who this is if I DM you a girl you know what that mean who this is yeah oh that oh that you send that [ __ ] around to the [ __ ] who already who making them announcements tell them to all them [ __ ] who make them announcements they going to come back and be like I don't know her I don't know her I don't know her I don't know her she good she might be that over there in the other crowd now with what you saying go ahead but but see that's what I'm saying I'm not saying like all cuz it's impossible to say all of course of course it's a couple most yeah of course it's a couple Butterfly by The hornest Nest but [ __ ] [ __ ] I ain't going to stand by and let the [ __ ] sting me I'm getting the [ __ ] on [ __ ] them butterflies you see what I'm saying so that's all I'm saying like yeah [ __ ] can't it's hard to deci what I said on Instagram standing beside them it's hard to deci which one is which so and I like man and this thing I think think Atlanta is kind of like this [ __ ] [ __ ] you up this [ __ ] [ __ ] you up cuz it's just like the Lifey like man ain't no I ain't really seen no place like Atlanta like this [ __ ] really is the mecca of like Black Culture to me you know what I mean like I feel like [ __ ] Atlanta is like Legend like even if you just staying in Atlanta right now this [ __ ] Legend like this a legend this a legendary City so the [ __ ] that go on here it go on everywhere like that you know what I mean so it's just the the level of competition and you got you you got to be a dog to be out this [ __ ] for real yeah yeah you got to be you got to have some real dog in you for real and most and most people ain't got I ain't going to say most [ __ ] most about people that's outside but now I'm talking about even the [ __ ] working 9 to5 that don't even go nowhere and [ __ ] they can't even keep up like but you know that [ __ ] ain't but a job and and paying bill you G have to do some you GNA have to do something something he ain't gonna be able to just work come home pay bills and be straight unless your ass stay somewhere in caning or something but down here oh no we close to the city but your ass through so you think you ever lock in like on some relationship [ __ ] man I have goddamn go somewhere else not in that like how I used to be seen so much you Tain yeah there's always exception that can't I believe exceptions to the rule I don't know bro I didn't had a [ __ ] in the bed we finished and it be like you just made me commit adultery I'm like what wait what I didn't know you was married damn yeah that a know what I'm saying like a boy say that to everybody so that [ __ ] hit different like damn B that [ __ ] crazy it could be just bad in small towns though they just more sneaky and quiet going I trust that because I know Atlanta exists see what I'm saying so you ain't being brought to Atlanta and tested then you don't know see what I'm saying like she might just be like that she ain't got the opportunity see you ain't got no opportunity to be no hope everybody your daddy the preacher everybody know you in town so you Ain had no opportunity to be no hope bring her to Atlanta unleash her and then she got what she TV see see sh you see on TV right there like right there magic and [ __ ] will try you like nigg be like come here [ __ ] [ __ ] who you would never thought tell you come here tell you come here come here it going to [ __ ] you up it's going to blow your mind man I didn't seen that [ __ ] but that [ __ ] and I tell [ __ ] like man don't bring your girl up here dog don't bring your girl over here man if you if you coming from my of town you come man leave don't bring your old lady man try to move up it with her but none of that [ __ ] dead she just can't do this no more none of they can't do this no more it's too hard I think you should you think bring your girl to Atlanta you going to lock all the way in you need to know what you locking in with yeah they do it us us a woman a woman a woman will bring you around all her badass friends to see what you on yeah they do that [ __ ] to us yeah yeah yeah yeah I go yeah so expose her take her to uh you break around your don't take a center with a friends y'all go have fun n but look you take around your R po but get the poping all that sh man sh going to be in the air like this here over with what facts like they'll come back cuz a lot like I don't really know him like that anyway tell I don't really know I met him for real what we've been together two years it ain't that serious we do that take your serious like like I telling about my buddy right P who had had the bag listen man like you might be [ __ ] that really like me they might think I'm handsome but they not coming home with me but at the end of the night like if if shl say hey what's up they over with yeah I had to respect it I had like okay [ __ ] it I got to get on my grind like I ain't mad that is how the game is right now oh you got the [ __ ] you you got the [ __ ] over there with the looks his buddy got there went here he got bag put him in the pot up for you I had like I had like a oldale rain roll buty got a new bit truck baby go go with him I'm go go go with him go go [ __ ] I see you going I see you going I see you going and I ain't mad cuz I understand the game gu what I'mma have my turn and when I have my turn I don't want none of the old ho that already been [ __ ] up [ __ ] they gonna be all of them no but it's some new [ __ ] coming out the [ __ ] every day oh man it's some [ __ ] coming out the [ __ ] every day brand new don't even know what's out here yeah Michael cor Pur she Michel Michael cor Bel she cool I want to hold bottles I see they they uhuh they already know I already know they know what to buy yeah they know how person ah n i buy my cor coach i d by some Reb classes what you oh man Dam n that [ __ ] that [ __ ] real man sad reality it's Savage out here man like the wor listen man then the raapers don't [ __ ] [ __ ] man if you [ __ ] really bad man it's old we so it's really bad for real like really bad oh it's over with she might have some morals man n this [ __ ] like draing them and DM your girl just a space like put space in send it blank bubble you know what that mean this in the location [ __ ] man [ __ ] send your [ __ ] that big ass air Drake plane facts don't bring nothing they going to pick you up wherever you was standing there stand right there leave everything they going to pick you up to pick you up don't move they to pick you up in some [ __ ] take you to the helicopter helicopter to edate fly your ass to somewhere you never seen before bro you gone that would worth that whole relationship B care man this [ __ ] crazy bro was the [ __ ] true about how how the [ __ ] um how Drake had this sing out there with with her husband he sent the [ __ ] home man it was a story like it was a singer that he was like trying to I guess sign or some [ __ ] he flew her in her husband out and then like for a week or some [ __ ] and then like the last couple days sent the husband home man he [ __ ] cold I just when you about I just said my [ __ ] Joel Silver right shout out was movie producer Big Boy producer he told me a story one time I'm tell B [ __ ] it he said he said his wife when he first seen his wife she was married he told her I'mma marry you but him her and him her and her husband work for him he sent this [ __ ] on a movie for six months in a whole another state and kept the [ __ ] with him and bar I'm telling you bro well not the [ __ ] his wife but I'm just saying it's just like bro it's over with it's over with some [ __ ] what they want they can get if [ __ ] up to say that but did you see what I'm saying cuz [ __ ] put in the full work you better not be slipping a inch like a inch some you better have a slip of an inch and to see if he I'm telling you bro this [ __ ] [ __ ] up and women are cold some women I'm not I'm not um generalized I'm just saying some women are cold BR it'll be like they never knew you yeah for real [ __ ] act like she never even knew your name like you don't exist like how many times you see women do that like men can't really do that like [ __ ] with you I [ __ ] with you no matter what I'm always [ __ ] with this [ __ ] I [ __ ] with her how [ __ ] is [ __ ] be invested yeah [ __ ] be like I [ __ ] with women when they boy this [ __ ] I don't know him and be de serious like I don't know him they don't convince theirself that they don't know you oh man especially especially if it's a [ __ ] around that got some [ __ ] going on but them f w look your way boy but I feel like I feel like for a female to act like she doesn't know a [ __ ] that she wants loved it had to be something that happened but look listen I feel always going to be done happen [ __ ] going to be [ __ ] wom always got a chance to justify their action because something happened we in this [ __ ] or we in this [ __ ] but what's crazy no but what I'm saying is like Mo nine times out of 10 if if a [ __ ] is really in love with a [ __ ] like for real for real like they going to get into it they going to fall out she going to say [ __ ] him a million times but if she really loves this [ __ ] she's G to love this [ __ ] forever but if it's some [ __ ] that like some unfor a lot of women I've been hearing this [ __ ] lately a lot of women be kicking at I can learn the love a [ __ ] and they never be unlearned truly till you see some [ __ ] you really love you thought you was in love that's what most the [ __ ] most the women do they be delusional some some way like they like I heard three women say that like recently I thought I was going to learn to love him it's conveyance versus love too though I think some women men probably too whatever get convenience [ __ ] up with love yeah they they enter into the relationship with potential and they enter the relationship with uh what it could be not what it is like I can't deal with you if it ain't what it is right then like it have to be that I can't potentially feel like that and saying that I love you and knowing you trying to we trying to fall in love we trying to do hell no I can't potentially I can't fake that but if you but okay so let me ask you this then if you don't to some degree fall in love with potential then that's D how how does your how does your love get tested in order for you to be able to know whether or not you can grow with this person that's what I'm saying so it ain't it listen on one thing about it hold up scam one thing about it when a [ __ ] your person you know what it is cuzz you can't it's just something about you know when you love a person you know when you want to love a person you know when I like her a lot but you know if a [ __ ] jump out the bush with a stick you ain't F to try to tote this [ __ ] like I'mma tote my [ __ ] like man hey I'm jump in front you don't think that's that's that's the test would you die [ __ ] jump out shooter stick is you going is you going to try to c shei a [ __ ] around run but but this disconnect I had real [ __ ] though that the truth but this a disconnect though this disconnect because she's thinking like a woman that's how women like women date potential a [ __ ] going to like what he see instantly like if I like you I [ __ ] like you like if a [ __ ] say Hey you my girl we already the God damn but but if but if you like me just based off of what you see then no he saying not see you observing her not the look fact the outer when I see you I see you I don't see what you look like on the outside that's why I tell my wife hey don't ask me unbiased whatever you do going I'm going like it don't ask me if I like it don't ask me if nothing I like you so I don't give a [ __ ] what it is that [ __ ] look good you know what I'm saying so that's just what it is so I can't don't ask me on bias so we don't see potential and [ __ ] yeah we see you you yeah like if I like how you make me feel I feel that if a [ __ ] say if a [ __ ] commit like cuz I don't know like it's hard as [ __ ] for me to say I want to commit cuz if feels like I'm giving up some [ __ ] like so I feel like no no man truly wants to commit but if he find a woman that he feel like man shout shout it shout it worth of everything shout it it like then of course he's going to commit but it's not no easy [ __ ] that [ __ ] just want to do like [ __ ] Ain't just running out here to commit you see what I'm saying like [ __ ] don't want to commit H understand but a [ __ ] will if you find something that you feel like worth like I ain't going to find nothing else like sh like she one of a lifetime I ain't going to find nothing else like her so we ain't looking at her potential cuz sh you could have a a a [ __ ] pot piss in a want throw out of her [ __ ] going godamn hop down on a woman but a woman ain't just going to [ __ ] with no broke straight broke ass no car no house no n [ __ ] she's off the bat they ain't going to do that but gu what man that [ __ ] rare that [ __ ] better have a foot long a foot long goddamn she going to have something that she want he ain't going to just be it going to be something going to be something now that's what I'm saying because a lot of like well not a lot but some some some men are able to and I've seen this happen a million times before some men are able to hide or like finesse the fact that they lack some of the most essential things and then by the time by the time you understand that you've been been Boozled you know what I'm saying like it's too late you already got for you think that [ __ ] been spending the night that [ __ ] really be got there sleeping but see that but but listen one by one but see putting a pair of shoes every day but but this my thing right see women cuz people agree that like women are smarter than men right nah n I'm saying like book smart like right I'm just saying like educational wise I feel like women got more intuition than men I feel like women are more emotionally int I'mma tell you let me say this right quick before I say this I'mma tell you what men do bro and I'm go and give it up [ __ ] hate when they girl be right bro you that [ __ ] that's the only thing piss us off what pissed me off is a [ __ ] can make up something in their head and be right like how you guess that you gu right so wom got superp power now like that why I be trying to tell her like you right about a lot of that [ __ ] but some of that [ __ ] you making up so I ain't going to let you know when you're making it up I ain't going to let you know when you're right you know what I'm saying but you be right though this [ __ ] be like God but this my thing right women know what they be talking about but this my thing right what I'm saying if women are smarter than men so to speak and they believe this right you believe women smarter men I mean yeah okay so then how you get manipulated how you getting tricked then how you don't know a [ __ ] got two pair of jeans how you how you don't know yeah how you don't know that how you don't know a [ __ ] got two pair of jeans I feel like I feel like some women want to believe in the best of a [ __ ] that a [ __ ] might have another pair of jeans somewhere you know what I'm saying like but you only seeing two see I'm saying that what I'm saying like men are more L but but but the women the woman might think that the [ __ ] might not want to expose his hand right away so the two pair is what he's showing to test the water to see if it makes sense to expose the third pair see that's delusion cuz guess what you ain't never been around no rich [ __ ] that just wear two pair of jeans the [ __ ] that really got it they coming out with all this [ __ ] on especially if they like you and they trying to get you they ain't hiding nothing they putting everything on the table CU they trying to get you so a [ __ ] only let me test her with these two jeans come on you know this niggaer ain't got nothing you know it but in your mind you want to believe like I'm making get a good decision even though you know it's some [ __ ] like this [ __ ] ain't got nothing but in your mind you want to make yourself believe that he tricked me he got me he got over on me cuz you know women know man just like you said just like Bank said women got intuition you can't tell that this [ __ ] ain't got nothing yo you ain't know your baby daddy was broke before you had babies with him then you a had one with him you had another one with him yeah that [ __ ] be kind of hard like how can you say you got trick it's just hard to say you got yeah that [ __ ] when women turn into repeat offenders excuse that's excuse you know you know that's what you attract you know what I'm saying and and and and and and and no I just feel like women do make up a lot of [ __ ] in their head but how do you feel about when people say that you like what you like exactly so except that's what you like yeah and stop trying to change [ __ ] [ __ ] you don't like cuz listen bro I'm tell you bro I know like if I was to try to be anybody else but me I probably get a divorce like I'm me but I'm I mean I'm different but I'm me if that make sense what I'm saying like I'm totally different but I'm me like the mors and and [ __ ] that just boy don't do that don't say that and all that that's that's centic you get what I'm saying but I'm me so just imagine if I tried to be somebody else I don't think I would I don't think I don't think she'll go for it even though what me gets on [ __ ] nerd but I try to be something else it ain't going to work out how you a like that okay so let me ask y this then how do y'all feel about it when people say that let's just say say your significant person other person or whatever cheats on you and people say that it doesn't make sense to leave because all you g to do is hook up with another cheater because everybody I agree has their you know their I agree for women I don't know about yeah I agree for women though and I'm say I know that [ __ ] going to sound sexies or whatever they call it but I thought you about to say sexy yeah it ain't it ain't enough [ __ ] fact so you get your [ __ ] up to go find another [ __ ] who just got just got left by another female who he cheated on like it's just a Revol Circle it's just a rev it depend on what you want like cuz all men don't cheat the guys I'm just keeping it real but the guys that y'all yeah don't want be want y'all don't want them guys like I hear so many women be like he boring he didn't he didn't God sent this man fool yeah right but you looking at goddamn be over here wasting time with me you yeah you looking at scam them you know what saying who ain't boy a going ain't going ain't going a lot of [ __ ] ain't going they already know you all the man this this [ __ ] so [ __ ] up cuz most of Mo like most of the time the [ __ ] that's good good the dudes that's good dude women look at them as weird y cornball mhm so like so this nigga's a real man gentle he's a man he's a man you w look God bwood breath B you smokeing bwood cut out you want to hear you hear girl how you don't want to hear that that sound cuz cuz you addicted to the [ __ ] yeah for real and that you ain't never seen that you know your mama going to be like what she doing like y y y y your people goingon to disapprove of that that [ __ ] [ __ ] up bro where you get him from yeah H Square boy H Square Bo sh but lame here but he the one for you and and you right BR be some good ass men and it's funny cuz a lot of folk think and I I had to explain that to cuz you know whenever I do what's name podcast them folk think that [ __ ] real so it be like I be getting hate mail and I just be like damn like this sh a joke yeah you be doing like the yeah that [ __ ] hard though finess finess yeah so it be a joke but I be saying some real [ __ ] so it catch like and that's all this [ __ ] really is just getting emotional response from people you see what I'm saying and boy them folk be going crazy on this [ __ ] like and I'm just saying like man for the most part it's a lot of good [ __ ] out there it just they don't want them [ __ ] they don't like and crazy because they don't even see them [ __ ] like if you if you try to explain like a good [ __ ] they don't even them [ __ ] invisible they only talk about the [ __ ] that they like which is a small percent you see what I'm saying like every [ __ ] ain't like that but the [ __ ] that you probably going to want he like that you see what I'm saying okay I say this right I say this right a woman want a [ __ ] well not all women women want to pull up with a [ __ ] that other [ __ ] respect and and all the [ __ ] that's what it is bro and all the [ __ ] want yeah that's what I'm saying they want to pull yeah pull up with a niggga that ever that the [ __ ] respect and the [ __ ] want that's other than that man not a [ __ ] that's like okay that that that want them [ __ ] who the [ __ ] who like cuz she want to feel a slight sense of of that yeah yeah that you might can yeah like cuz if I feel like I'm the only one want you then no no thrill this ain't man no thrill I feel like they want a [ __ ] they want a niggga to get all the hoes but then they want to get the [ __ ] and make the niggaer not get no more ho damn like I want you to be able to get all the hoes but I don't want I be able to stop you from getting all the hoes to say that I was the one yeah when have you seen that done before that why I keep trying to add the the lates like you seen you you seen your whoever your cousin get cheated on your sister everybody in the circle every no not get cheated on your brother is a cheater your uncle your daddy your cousin your nephew you done help him he ain't here girl he was here all night you done help people cheat what makes you think you f to get the [ __ ] that don't if he D type of [ __ ] I'm not saying all men cheat I'm saying like certain type of [ __ ] is just outside and them [ __ ] it too many I ain't going lie bro I say I think all men do cheat I think you only as faithful as your options I feel like nigg if a [ __ ] ain't capable of cheat then he ain't and most [ __ ] is broke and working for that 30 hours of God damn 24 hours a day they can't cheat [ __ ] depend what your focus is man I'm like I know [ __ ] is [ __ ] in the factory that what I'm saying work them nigg who got there got time to to talk talk they work B out that [ __ ] the [ __ ] nigg super cheating them R [ __ ] they s right there on the they they did a study and show like the the Lesser [ __ ] make the more likely he is to be faithful versus the more money a [ __ ] make the more he you know that though come on but that's what I'm saying so I'm saying like any like what I say to women is like what [ __ ] don't want to be a king like if if if you walk up to a man on the street like but some that [ __ ] don't make some [ __ ] King though other [ __ ] make some I know but I'm just saying like I the reason why I use the term King is because like okay [ __ ] what king had one Queen and no conine just for real like what king just had one wife one and he just was n that [ __ ] [ __ ] everything boy it was a [ __ ] in China boy this [ __ ] if you want to work next to the emperor you had to chop your dick off cuz he had so many hoes you had to chop your dick off to work in the castle in the padet cuz he ain't want you to godamn cuz you know she I know you ain't [ __ ] exactly but he a [ __ ] na here he going to [ __ ] nothing in here cuz guess why [ __ ] I cuz my my my son going to be a Heir so you can't like it ain't no practic test and all DNA test and [ __ ] so you leave your dick at the door come work in the [ __ ] so just think like all I'm saying is like you walk up to any average man and be like hey you you want to be king king of Atlanta for the day what [ __ ] going be like nah like hell yeah I want to cuz Men We value that [ __ ] we value power and Prestige and status and [ __ ] like that ambition you see I'm saying so you saying you saying basically like Ain a [ __ ] if a [ __ ] in a [ __ ] in the right situation to go yeah yeah give a [ __ ] 100 Mil boy what that [ __ ] dick GNA fall off F 100 million and everybody know it everybody know you got 100 milon women know you got 100 million my debate my only debate you got it might and it might be a lot more rare that just mean don't no loyalty exists nowhere for nobody but that philosophy I'm just saying with that philosophy then n but but but but but I got I got I gotta disagree on that because loyalty ain't to me loyalty ain't defined by sex yeah what you talking about to say I'm say he said he just saying get some [ __ ] I ain't saying like leave my wife [ __ ] oh you saying like that I'm saying you some [ __ ] I'm going to play I'm to I'm not I'm not no advocate for Cheetos or none of that but I'm saying is I get what he's saying yeah for real am I Tripp it what I'm saying he's saying like you never know what position you get in and where you start to see yourself at when you start when other people start to see you different but I can't I get what you saying no I I hear what he saying I'm just saying that you that's really it for real so okay so let me let me rephrase then so money will change you but do y'all think loyalty do you think a person if a person cheat on you they're disloyal to you if if y'all if y ain't got the agreement don't cheat H if the agreement if if if if if if if if you cheated on your dude right do you feel like you disloyal to him keep it real yeah I do it depends on how you unless unless unless unless she has an understanding with him that you can cheat n it ain't no understanding with that type of [ __ ] like if I'm with you no it's an understand some people have open relationship with you or whatever then like I'm with you if we've agreed to be together or if we've agreed to do this [ __ ] or however the [ __ ] whatever like say for instance um what if you done did everything else to do everything you took care you got them you there for them they sick they locked up anything you there right but you [ __ ] are you disloyal or unfaith both both unless some some one says you I I know that you're cheating and I don't give look the word see I look that up that's a good I'm telling you look up the word loyalty Loy look at the word loyalty and look up unfaith I think we did this one time on on another podcast on on big facts but are you disloyal or Unfaithful both Unfaithful both that's cold right now right Elite cuz a [ __ ] can do some disloyal [ __ ] to you and be faithful to you disloyal means failing to be loyal to a person or body to which one has obligations but loyalty Unfaithful but loyalty the word faithfulness is in loyalty what's what's lloy faithfulness in a steadfast face of Temptation renounced desert or betray see I'm getting a whole different what's name I don't know strong feeling of support or Alliance thank you that's what that that's Unfaithful is which one you looked up I think this sh Oxford yeah this Oxford I'm saying what's the name loyer you look up loyalty all right loyalty is what a strong feeling of support or Alliance so if you ain't broke the support of Alli or Alliance the alliance could be no the alliance could it's black the alliance the alliance could be that we ain't going to cheat I'm saying we go down that rabbit hole huh we can go down that rabbit holead but if someone does something the respect to make you feel betrayed then it violates loyalty and faithfulness what okay Faith that's all I'm saying of being fa yeah that's like say that's like saying just on some homeboy [ __ ] all right this homeboy always did everything right but then snitch who he told him you see what I'm saying though but but see it's different because like faithfulness is almost like crazy you know that way that's that's the new [ __ ] out here now like [ __ ] ain't told on me who he told on [ __ ] like that's the new [ __ ] that [ __ ] crazy and what's [ __ ] is disgusting I'm so glad I'm so glad I'm a comedian y boy I ain't even got to worry about this [ __ ] I don't even give a [ __ ] about this [ __ ] like boy I'm so glad I ain't even like even cuz it's like man this [ __ ] different bro like I this [ __ ] just way different I never thought that I see today that this [ __ ] would be like you know what I mean [ __ ] R and just keep rapping and keep you know what I mean this [ __ ] crazy for real 2024 so that's why I'm so we I listen man and I always take the [ __ ] to weird space because my mind just be weird sometimes y'all my mind be weird sometime but you see how we create AI right it's Dam nck can can grow to be a life for because AI going to be AI like robots going to be able to make other robots right M it's like a birth go hold up hold up being H me out all right so that's that's basically not humans I guess we're humans not that's basically another form of humanity right if they if they just go to building [ __ ] they we got our own fact we building [ __ ] and they multiply multiply multiply right who's to say that another planet didn't make us and the same [ __ ] hold on hold on hold on let me let me get this off the same little little plug ups and [ __ ] we putting in them they just electric they could have found some [ __ ] like brains organs and all that it's the same [ __ ] cuz it's from a different planet right it's still got damn [ __ ] this uh this at the top [ __ ] this the hard drive no real [ __ ] though am I tripping we got a hard drive computer we got we got a whole our bodies are basically computers right yeah they work like them similar cars if you think about a car car got engine who [ __ ] huh who controls all that what you mean who controls it we probably ran nor Atlanta philosophy that [ __ ] making s though J yeah it ain't but it listen bro we so if AI run off right now who's to say Humanity didn't run off so how they ain't find us if they was in control of us I'm saying we we can we can find a them [ __ ] bucking with sticks and [ __ ] they they them folk gret them folk they [ __ ] they they what they is now I ever heard little Fishbowl Theory what's that basically like the aliens tray the humanity and they just watch us I believe need that bro fish bowl the like like like you know how you just go and look at the fish tank the fish don't know you outside that [ __ ] they don't know what's going on outside the [ __ ] so it's a theory where they say like aliens created us and they just monitor us they just watch yeah I believe they just be watching us and [ __ ] I feel like it's too many of us for that [ __ ] to be going on what bro listen but but but how many shit's on the game you play the game right now you play a whole universe a whole world this [ __ ] is a real world in the yeah that a making [ __ ] you put [ __ ] on your you D near in that [ __ ] I just did a virtual reality [ __ ] over by um by um how me and Shante and dating went that [ __ ] that [ __ ] is real when you put them [ __ ] on your body you DN there you in there yeah the metaverse all that [ __ ] I don't know I think I think is we even woke now go rabbit B even W like [ __ ] you dreams and [ __ ] feel so real now come back so many times for me every day like I think I'm glitched up but you right but listen I had a dream and woke up and had to realize I had kids and [ __ ] I had a dream that I felt like [ __ ] I had a dream that I felt like I was there for like three months like I was living a whole life and all kind of [ __ ] Apartments trapping and all kind of [ __ ] and I woke up [ __ ] I had to be like where the [ __ ] I'm at I thought this [ __ ] was fake I thought what I was at was fake and the dream was real not real [ __ ] yeah that when they say you tapping in you can't determine well you know black folk about to get piles and [ __ ] super piles and [ __ ] huh Black Folk about to get super piles and [ __ ] y'all a see that what's yeah boy they saying Black Folk DNA DNA about to unlock and all kind of [ __ ] about to happen boy I just want to be a to fly and [ __ ] super speed I do think the Matrix I do think the Matrix [ __ ] was real though I do think we plug in and plug out when we go to sleep and wake up can't tell me bro I know I know I be glitching bro I ain't the only [ __ ] glitching y'all [ __ ] just don't be keeping it real [ __ ] just be trying to act like it don't exist I see everything you know what I'm saying you cuz with that fish sandwich yeah man what we doing scream about right it's all good man we appreciate you pulling up the big facts you know what I'm saying let everybody know where they can tap in with you and what you got coming up man look man y'all can tap in with me on YouTube Facebook Instagram Tik Tok everything all the same JQ health is cerski GQ Health J us s t q e H3 FF man the kid that did man you know what I mean if you think only those who think like that think like that man so yeah there it is check us out. bfa.com subscribe like comment share all that on the bigf network salute salute	[Music] this is big fact Network [Music] exclusive live from the culture lab it's time for big facts big bank is here baby Jade is here DJ Scream is here we're welcoming today a comedian that's very funny you see him online give it up for scam lightly on big facts what's up what's up what's up bro you good man yeah man I have made it man so what you say you scam your way on the big F tell tell us how you got on big F I want to hear the whole story yeah so look man I got damn I had hit bank account but goddamn Bank was so cool about we worked some [ __ ] out and then goam you know I mean I owe them so so this a transaction yeah this transaction I just [ __ ] with you no man for real like shout out my manager uh y sh man brother and you know I mean we been had linked up like I came and did skit on y'all um on the podcast what that was like about a year ago yeah so U man just kept working kept grinding and boom back here so is your Origins comedy or what was you doing before that no I was in some whole other [ __ ] some whole other [ __ ] you can talk about or you can't talk about I can't allegedly I say allegedly but now for	8	6	4	what's up what's up what's up bro you good man yeah man I have made it man	so what you say you scam your way on the big F tell tell us how you got on big F I want to hear the whole story	8,6,5	2,4,6	8	6	5	2	4	6
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-Xsjx4VTfU	4,038	q-Xsjx4VTfU	2024-06-27 00:00:00	[Music] this is big fact Network [Music] exclusive live from the culture lab it's time for big facts big bank is here baby Jade is here DJ Scream is here we're welcoming today a comedian that's very funny you see him online give it up for scam lightly on big facts what's up what's up what's up bro you good man yeah man I have made it man so what you say you scam your way on the big F tell tell us how you got on big F I want to hear the whole story yeah so look man I got damn I had hit bank account but goddamn Bank was so cool about we worked some [ __ ] out and then goam you know I mean I owe them so so this a transaction yeah this transaction I just [ __ ] with you no man for real like shout out my manager uh y sh man brother and you know I mean we been had linked up like I came and did skit on y'all um on the podcast what that was like about a year ago yeah so U man just kept working kept grinding and boom back here so is your Origins comedy or what was you doing before that no I was in some whole other [ __ ] some whole other [ __ ] you can talk about or you can't talk about I can't allegedly I say allegedly but now for real I was like uh I was um in the streets just like I ain't G to say everybody else but pretty much you know I demographic I came from the same [ __ ] PIV it and I was always doing I was always like stupid my whole life I can say that I was slow I was slow so I been I've been should have step in comedy but I kind of running from it you know what I mean cuz I Ain I ain't I was I wasn't in no position to be laughed at at the time so when I finally took it serious sat down two months that [ __ ] was out of here at what point did you know you was funny man since I was little I ain't gonna lie like I said I always been a CL clown I always been a [ __ ] roast and always I I I had to fight [ __ ] I roast so good you know what I mean so I always had that aspect to me so I just when I really took it serious like man I'm going to do this comedy [ __ ] like full-fledged nothing else I'm sit down and do it like I said that sh was out of here but I I will say like I I do feel like it chose me instead of me choosing it you know I mean do you think it's important to be able to do like other other types of comedies like AC in the movie Stand Up and all that type of stuff too or or or or is it if you're a one lane type of comedian is that cool in your opinion I I mean I feel like whatever you comfortable with see what I'm saying because a lot of people ain't comfortable with that stage you know I mean I didn't did all of it so like I don't know like for me I didn't get all of it you know I mean but for everybody I like stand up ain't for everybody you know I mean that [ __ ] a whole different monster you know I me why you say that because it's like like it's [ __ ] that you got to know like you got to know time you know I mean you got to know punch lines you got to know how to build a joke up you know you got to sit traps type [ __ ] I mean so it's like an art front for like it's actually some people that probably ain't even funny in real life but they comedians you see what I'm saying cuz they just know the art of telling jokes ver being just naturally funny like you might be naturally funny and get on stage and can't you that's true just how some of these rap [ __ ] be lying boom same way but they sound good exactly that [ __ ] sound good [ __ ] make [ __ ] sound good you go get some money yeah how it go what's the inspiration for your skits uh cuz a lot of it seem like day-to-day just man really just like life and um me like because and I say that because [ __ ] I'm damn near like a psych patient like you know I mean my mama was a paranoid schizophrenic so I come from like my mind be racing so this [ __ ] like therapy for me I just get to get out [ __ ] that's just in my mind all day which is some stupid [ __ ] that I just be thinking about so now I get to relay that on on on camera so let me answer this so just going back to what you said about your mom how was it growing up in a household with somebody that was battling mental illness like that uh definitely a struggle definitely definitely a struggle like uh I want to say my mom probably was your dad there yeah yeah actually my dad raised me like um okay RP my dad um he actually like like when they split my dad took me so I ra with my dad you know what I mean like okay and and he was a old man like my dad was born 1929 he was in World War II real [ __ ] on God everything my dad born in 1929 [ __ ] in World War II so I so so I be having more on God how how old was your daddy when he had you he had me he was like 50 something okay that that add up yeah yeah yeah okay yeah I'm talking about dead that [ __ ] was in World War II so so he put certain mors and [ __ ] in a [ __ ] that I know people ain't even got no more you know what I mean so that's why people be thinking I sound how I do because you know what I mean like I was raised with a Elder you know I mean that [ __ ] was a real Elder you see what I'm saying so with him he was like the um coherent parent of the group you see what I'm saying my mama was wild Young illness type [ __ ] so my daddy was like the one that took us and raised us you see what I'm saying but growing up in the house with that [ __ ] yeah that [ __ ] was a struggle I think that's why I get my comedic comedic side front cuz my mama she Ain have no fut she'll say anything to anybody at any time and like people didn't know she was you know I mean she was like she had the illness or whatever and they thought that she was trying to be funny or like but it was funny though it was funny though I can't C like my MMA was funny as hell though like rip she was funny as hell she Ain what she'll say anything out M like a like a child worse like a adult that know better but still say some [ __ ] like like for real like your homeboy might come over there she might just look at your homeboy and say some [ __ ] like I bet your dick little out of nowhere real [ __ ] where you from originally originally I was born in tusi Alabama I was born in my grandma house 46 yeah I went to school down there oh you did yeah they told you with the locals oh I'm cool with a couple of them shouts the street of Frank Walkin some of them so was your daddy a part of the experiment that they did down there no uh no my dad U he was from Chicago so he had came later but yeah Tusk experiments like a lot of my family members and [ __ ] was affected by that like d yeah did they ever give them reparations for that I think they just now I think they just yeah yeah they did yeah they did yeah they they got reparation for it but it was only like a small group of them left by time they did get to him what you think about this [ __ ] cat you watch that cat we [ __ ] yeah hell what you think about that I think it's a lot of truth to it like I don't know I don't know them folk person I don't want to say too much cuz godamn I ain't trying to get black ball before I get I just talking [ __ ] but now I I I definitely I see that [ __ ] here like you know I mean it's like a you know kind of like a little pecking order gatekeeping type [ __ ] like people gatekeep in all rounds no matter how big small so I think every city got that [ __ ] and then you get to the industry they got their own Gatekeepers so or you feel like they be trying to hold [ __ ] out you think you think that's possible yeah well I ain't going to say it I I think if you weak if you weak it'll stop you like [ __ ] like you know what I mean if you don't say [ __ ] I'm make it anyway know I mean it can scare you off and you just like I seen some with um the Wayne brother he was like somebody said something to him and he start doing stand up for like 10 years so that [ __ ] can really you know what I mean shake you in the wrong way you the whole body if you let it you know I mean but I feel like if you're a [ __ ] that come from nothing I truly feel like what's for you is for you though that's true I don't know it might be harder for you I don't feel like no n can keep you out yeah it might keep you out of they Circle yeah that's what said they situation yeah but this [ __ ] too big man you can make a way man I be [ __ ] excuses I feel but I I I feel the way you feel but I also feel like if the right [ __ ] sprays your name then it's going to be I don't want to say next to Impossible but it can be super [ __ ] overly extremely difficult in mostu but it's it's it still B down to B down to how hard you go look at the [ __ ] that they do spray the [ __ ] going hard about this [ __ ] man yeah but [ __ ] look how I look that's true look look at the [ __ ] who it's a it's a it's a lot of casual to that [ __ ] what I'm saying it's a lot of casualty to that [ __ ] because I feel like you laid down at the end of the day that's true that what I said what I said like if you weak you going to fold you going to fold in on yourself that [ __ ] really be mental like if somebody get in your head and you don't get that [ __ ] out Bo like [ __ ] what's the [ __ ] name B Simon that [ __ ] went what number one FK got in that [ __ ] head he Ain like performing to his best n they ain't getting they ain't getting his head he want it he W it he W it yeah sometimes CU I I don't really know a lot about that [ __ ] I just know R talked about him in the song he said like Ben Timmons I ain't going nowhere or something yeah he had a hell of a agent he had a hell of a agent they giving him money based on what they thought he might be able to do what I'm saying he ain't never do it though but the [ __ ] it paid him based off of his potential exactly but he got man he got gunshot BR the man wouldn't even shoot the basketball man that's in your head he wouldn't even take a shot n he ain't shoo bro cuz he wasn't going to make it man he didn't shoot it he could he could he didn't even drive I'm just saying if okay let's take Ben Simmons maybe I'm being in a homer and let's take Ant-Man all right Antman shoot that's what I was saying last night what I said what I said if you weak I'm saying like he mentally KN up it's you right I see what you say you say take the shot forget that like an is from the west side that dog I know to do matter [ __ ] lay down everywhere it's a [ __ ] laying down on every side of town same how you name one [ __ ] that stood up I bet we can a fire [ __ ] that done laid down laid down [ __ ] [ __ ] up Z they ain't do nothing to Zion he did it to himself I mean who Z the big dude who be smashing the porn or whatever Zion Williamson the boy can jump though like boy can jump yeah you getting paid to jump jumping don't win championships and games but it's early too though early super early he got he got a minute man he still got he got time to like when did he get signed once you he been in the league six years that ain't ear I been in about six years yeah I'm thinking like three n he been playing hurt two of them oh yeah that's what it is that's that's what it is that's is my opinion when when it comes to like the athlete [ __ ] some people just ain't got it but that's what I'm saying like people I think a lot of people put emphasis on it like that [ __ ] just everywhere that [ __ ] ain't that [ __ ] real rare but if but if you're not it and then on top of that you don't have self-esteem then like you're going you're going to flop every time you going to f in on yourself like you going to be your worst enemy you going to godamn you're going to implode facts hey what what a character scam come from man this [ __ ] so crazy so the the interview that future did with Kevin Sam I watched that interview I like well that [ __ ] don't give a [ __ ] about [ __ ] just just his demeanor how he was just like yeah I me a [ __ ] by like I like but this [ __ ] just so nonchalant so I was like damn what if the scammer was like that like [ __ ] just pull all kind of moves don't give a [ __ ] about the consequences so and it's crazy I watched I I the interview was on TV and I just like hey I want to shoot a skit by the Atlanta scammer and then in like 10 minutes I just he like he need a name I was like [ __ ] scam like Le oh like scam likely I'm like no not likely but like Le like l e e so I just ran with that [ __ ] and that [ __ ] just stuck so hard that people like people don't even call me by my name they just call me scam introdu you fact so I like [ __ ] scam so I just ran with it man and that [ __ ] just naturally like took off because I feel like you know that's what we living in anyway what you think about SC game I mean [ __ ] is though you go with your move like you had if it made sense yeah yeah [ __ ] me too if it made sense like I feel like I did everything it is to do in the streets like everything like a [ __ ] that played all positions in that [ __ ] I had been a fake ass little pimp before godamn s everything it is I did everything so [ __ ] why not riding around that man we was making no money man but that [ __ ] him [ __ ] the hard [ __ ] listen [ __ ] listen sh but then the crazy thing is just talking to them folk like when you talk like real PE and [ __ ] they be like you got to coach the [ __ ] talk I ain't got the patience to keep talking to no [ __ ] about some [ __ ] just keep on telling you some [ __ ] that you should know [ __ ] that I go get me some drugs or something baby this [ __ ] slow oh when with that turning point though huh like the Turn Point like man I'm just feel cuz you always legit now right yo for sure why he looking around I won't be on big face for real no I am though we in the turtle what it was though like you know [ __ ] I ain't going to lie but you know the pandemic had [ __ ] boom [ __ ] was eating good like you know I mean so I had enough money to where I was like damn I can kind of ease up off this you know I mean this [ __ ] cuz at first like I said I I never wanted to do comedy because of that like I mean I was dealing with [ __ ] in the street I ain't really want no [ __ ] to feel like I was no funny [ __ ] you know what I mean when you dealing with certain amount of money so once I once I felt like I made enough money then I was like [ __ ] I can kind of start doing comedy like you know doing my skits and [ __ ] so like I said I had sat down like um my turning my main turning point though was and this is trueu I had went to Miami for new years and [ __ ] so I had on took a I thought was edible so I ate a edible but I don't know what for issue was like it it had to be like strs or something yeah cuz boy I had the worst trip of my life [ __ ] like I'm I'm I'm zooed you know you you know when you get too high you think you about to die and [ __ ] that's what I was on I'm like well I'm I'm G I'm out of here so so I walk to the gas station to get some milk drunk drunk drunk a gallon of milk that man that [ __ ] only wors when you swallow dope no no that milk workk any natural high and that milk work that sh why the [ __ ] y'all ain't G me milk that day I was TR to die want to see it you milk what you talking about let no El kill you bro you just tripping but that how that [ __ ] had me that [ __ ] do that [ __ ] take you to a psychedelic listen boy that [ __ ] had listen I swear to God on everything I got back to the room after drinking the milk [ __ ] I lay on the bed I'm like I'm going to die I just Clos my eyes I'm in the universe I'm just in the universe like but I can see my body on the bed with my ey closed I owe my eyes I'm back in the room close my eyes I'm in the universe so I start seeing myself on stage with a microphone like that was astro Projection what when you had that where you supposed to be at though that's what I was saying like but I think what it is though I think it's it's like a unified Feld and you see all the possibilities that you can be right so that was me in the future looking back at me like see what I'm saying even with Dreams yeah exactly like [ __ ] was telling me come on like do what we on so I'm like man I'm going to do this [ __ ] then I got back to Atlanta boy my cousin was standing with him but [ __ ] tow tow a hole in my head thing gone you yeah why part me empty [ __ ] gone all [ __ ] gone you know I mean see make sense yeah I see see yeah we CH we chopped up and [ __ ] y chopped it up yeah I mean you was just like no regular chop up like you know I mean but you know I mean like like what what the excuse was why he broke in your [ __ ] no I say he was standing [ __ ] that [ __ ] a break in that [ __ ] lit there I'm saying where the excuse was taking out with the [ __ ] uh I don't even remember so about like he probably felt like I owed him or some [ __ ] yeah but it probably wasn't that you know what I mean but like he was staying with you and you owed him it be like that sometime the [ __ ] kind of [ __ ] but but you just know like you know I mean like [ __ ] was just getting out the fed you know [ __ ] PTSD like you know what I mean home to steep so you know what I mean home you doing stand up yeah yeah I didn't I didn't did stand up I did step away from it though cuz like I said it's it's so much politics and that [ __ ] and that [ __ ] ain't paying nothing they think it ain't paying nothing I got a little something for you want do [ __ ] show yeah we September I when is it April May damn that's May May 4th Saturday May 4 okay you know I got I gota get back on stage that [ __ ] A that [ __ ] ain't just like no just you know I mean that [ __ ] real real you got to get back up St you just got to get in your bag right yeah yeah but but it's like like I said like it's about time so like that's why you do it every night so you can got damn sharpen your your skills no we had um we had my man on here man don't you you got to get you gotta got damn we just had Henry up here right oh yeah yeah Henry my boy yeah Henry said the same [ __ ] like you got to exercise [ __ ] going and 100 50 people rooms 25 people in the room you still gota go work your material even if you comeing in [ __ ] working on us yeah for real people you got to work that material bro if a n GNA do this [ __ ] n gota do it all the way no but see that's what I was saying like so I noticed like if you try to do that and the content one of them going to suffer see what I'm saying so why you say that because like the amount of time that you got to take like like [ __ ] what's her name did it country Wayne did it but he he I'm saying like them [ __ ] beat but but what I'm saying like once they did one of them surer I ain't going to say like the quality of the content serer but the amount that you putting out going to go down you got to balance it at that point you got to balance it yeah I know it but I'm saying like far as like especially like now because [ __ ] gate you see what I'm saying so it's still like I ain't like [ __ ] don't like internet comedians for real that I to say really respect yeah exactly like you get chance pause edit you get a chance do all that [ __ ] want that [ __ ] on the spot but but it's the thing though it's like she like they it's kind of like the old mindset like how [ __ ] was Pass Out CD ain't no more CD so [ __ ] don't know how to transition you see what I'm saying so it's kind of like that like they be want you to just only do stand up rooms and [ __ ] but it's like I got the internet why would I go touch a whole another see what I'm saying like you can reach way more still though them [ __ ] but [ __ ] Ain't Going [ __ ] [ __ ] don't really internet comedian oh but iig who like being the trench you know what I'm saying the people do like I love it yeah but I'm saying like comedians who gotdamn know where they got it from gotam getting them $20 nights godamn [ __ ] [ __ ] that got a drink you know saying [ __ ] get a [ __ ] [ __ ] like them nigg feel like they got it out the mud but that's still like a yeah [ __ ] up um perspective but I get it you know what I'm saying for what they feel like what they put in every comedian should put in but [ __ ] something it's the luck of the [ __ ] gu what I got this [ __ ] out the mud too I got this [ __ ] with a phone and a goddamn ring light a cheat one at that godamn exactly you know I mean cord breaking off that [ __ ] I had to wire that b back together put some tape around it so it's the same [ __ ] it's just like I said it's people perspective like you know what I mean and me honestly I ain't going to give a [ __ ] what another [ __ ] think about me like [ __ ] I ain't in it to be you know I mean I mean do you feel do you feel sometime like man yeah I need I need to goam go and get in that I need to go on and Mer that part so then let them know I can do it do you ever ever get but I did I ain't going to lie I did you see what I'm saying like I performed at a you know what I mean like a at a high stage what you know I mean [ __ ] some big dogs from the city like boy you got it know I mean it just like I said that [ __ ] wasn't making no sense for me and it's taking away from some [ __ ] that do make money so what I'm saying like I'm making money on Instagram and Facebook and [ __ ] like that so I'm making way more money than I would be trying to do taking a risk anything $200 [ __ ] you got to get into it with anything n that [ __ ] your security none of that [ __ ] yeah that [ __ ] A you been spank the [ __ ] on camera for what hell cuz the nigg [ __ ] G they move yeah cuz I ain't going to think I'm black out a whole another side be like oh n that [ __ ] don't even want that turn the big to workout what it name big Q got turn the big Q onig ass yeah I don't even want to play n but you get what I'm saying though yeah that [ __ ] that that don't make sense to be cuz I went gotam I would just say if I I want to be a rapper right there I would do my [ __ ] online I wouldn't be at no open mics that [ __ ] dangerous yeah what I'm saying like [ __ ] like like you not going to gain no fans from that [ __ ] like I had a homeboy yes you are no you yes you are fans from what okay from from like open m stand up talk open mik rapping or you talking about stand up comedian stand up comedian I'm saying you make no money off no you might not make no money off of it but you like people will put your name with your face and it'll like help increase your family I agree that but well you got to get on the internet the internet no the internet is definitely over it but I'm saying touching the people is is going to make a difference also but most of the people outside [ __ ] but then what I say though like other crew y'all rapping my bad J y'all rapping other crew other open mic and you f then we got to get into it cuz you f yeah how this [ __ ] go comedian comedian okay we on the same show together [ __ ] mad at me cuz I just was funny as hell y that'll get you [ __ ] up real talk like cuz then they ain't going to want to put you on their show you see what I'm saying because every like I feel like most comedians everybody want to feel like the funnyest [ __ ] in the room just like okay a artist right let's say if two artists in the room and one get to playing his music the other [ __ ] going to get be ready for him to cut him music off so he can play his [ __ ] like come on man r that [ __ ] up so I can play my [ __ ] my [ __ ] F like your [ __ ] cool but my [ __ ] so it's the same thing you know mean it's the same [ __ ] and doing open mics [ __ ] steal your jokes I had a [ __ ] steal my whole [ __ ] and do the [ __ ] the next day because I was like I ain't know you see what I'm saying so they we was talking about that yeah so they'll tell you like don't do open mics and comedy cuz writers and [ __ ] be in the crowd to Ste [ __ ] jokes remix so it's a conspiracy yeah GNA remix your [ __ ] yeah like he ain't going nowh with that he funny I see what he Tred to do I'm show how to do it like your delivery or something might be off what I'm saying you how to do you a real funny ass [ __ ] get your [ __ ] too fast I know how to do it I know how to perform the joke better than and then boom got some of they [ __ ] with your [ __ ] that [ __ ] is that [ __ ] out of here TV so it just this [ __ ] just like I said sh just like a rap game you had to skit one time about like dating in Atlanta and [ __ ] what's your like what's your take on dating in Atlanta man have fun God damn don't take nothing serious like this [ __ ] ain't serious out here for real what you mean I feel like this [ __ ] a big ass high school for real I mean like Atlanta man I I would me personally I wouldn't like for love and no [ __ ] out here like for real like I feel like if you ain't already got it like new generation New Age day this [ __ ] over with like if you ain't already got love and marriage and wife and all that [ __ ] over with in Atlanta as of today it's a rap what you saying in a certain age group or just period or just period because everybody mind mind frames have change you see what I'm saying everybody mind is right now she it's okay to hurt whoever is long as is you happy like everybody feel like everything Justified as long as I'm looking out for me and I'm happy then she it's whatever it's cold real you saying no no consideration for nobody nobody if you look at everything everybody talking about online and all the toxicity [ __ ] everybody really just out for self and it's okay like like everybody promoe it's okay to be for yourself like no team ball no nothing I ain't going to lie I I help a lot of people though but I I I I've been on that lately like [ __ ] that I got to figure me out cuz that's the way the world live bro yeah but that's what I'm saying saying that the way the world live like whoever with me like this [ __ ] we doing yeah yeah this me figuring me out I can't worry about goddamn going play goddamn tennis yeah you know what I'm saying cuz my my buddy want to play tennis all day ain't no money in tennis bro for me I need to be right here doing this [ __ ] so I got to do what serve me I don't I don't knock that so that's why that's why I'm saying like the D SC sh like that like [ __ ] ain't nobody really going to stick it out with no [ __ ] till it's too late you see what I'm saying like that's how I feel anyway from my experience and your ass ain't lit ain't got nothing for you so you saying like the ho going anyway going gone they gone get the elevator with that SM that B that b he don't know what you say oh yeah really that that Clyde Christian but you know what I mean CDE be G out of here what's that come on what floor you stay on oh seven whole time [ __ ] paying for the [ __ ] all kind of [ __ ] tricky you don't think it's a circle though I think you don't think it's the circle like it's like that circle of people he right see see see you you speaking from where you at he's saying like outside the circle is different though but I but but this the thing I say with men it might be you see what I'm saying like for the for the men that's outside that Circle they don't know what we talking about see what I'm saying they don't but all the women know because they all going to get brought into that Circle see what I'm saying all women been out somewhere and a [ __ ] didn't caught they ey [ __ ] with some money and they gone they gone cuz Atlanta like Atlanta like people it's a wom that it's a wom that be it's a women that be up in Chastain Park at some [ __ ] Neil Soul jazz [ __ ] that be out the way yeah you talking about a different Circle CC you talking about the hook you talking about the Hooka Circle no uh I'm talking about all walk the [ __ ] is the hookah Circle CC the hookah lounges and [ __ ] n I'm talking about all no but I mean it's it's people like it's people that go to the hookah lounges the hookah Circle or whatever they got their own money that's not giv a Fu about what another [ __ ] got but it's not that it's not also just about money see that's what like I ain't saying like what it is SC it's just that stuff on like it's just that stuff like you know certain people got that stuff right so what I'm saying is like and the reason why I say that the reason why I say that because I I watched like when I was a young [ __ ] my partner this [ __ ] had everything this [ __ ] uh drop head godamn benty truck all this [ __ ] I done watch every type of woman from every type of Walk of Life come in the [ __ ] spot and he tell them folks straight up the [ __ ] make Ann hey look you ain't going to suck like at the end of night you can get up and get the [ __ ] out and I Ain never see not one woman get up and leave like got me [ __ ] up and I seen the [ __ ] with doctors lawyers them them so-called Neo Soul [ __ ] I ain't never seen not one of them get up and say no [ __ ] up never by them folks oh now you put yourself in that position now what he saying is listen it's hoes everywhere yeah I'm talk about scientist nurse doctor D judges whatever hoes women going to be women some of them but what he's saying is he's saying the on they don't even allow theyel to pull up on bro that's what I'm saying cuz we talk it don't matter what walk a life it's still a select few women she can be outside and still won't pull up on you I know some [ __ ] who ain't going I know a lot of them going but some of them ain't going but see that's a lot of them that ain't going some of them ain't going I'mma keep it 100 he take that right [ __ ] but some of still but okay what what you said take cuz we all know son like damn ain't nobody like everybody compar like but you ain't nobody [ __ ] who we know [ __ ] nobody but like you said you said take that right [ __ ] right now knowing how competitive Atlanta is you don't think that [ __ ] somewh in the crowd know he in the crowd but the thing about it is she know that but it like I a listen listen I'm going to V with some of them CU I know some of them bro just because and that's then the one to elevate too yes like we like it's it's like going every circle of [ __ ] all my budy is sniper diapers yeah so we going to know who done smashed her like what about her like [ __ ] send your picture around yeah that what [ __ ] do like who this is if I DM you a girl you know what that mean who this is yeah oh that oh that you send that [ __ ] around to the [ __ ] who already who making them announcements tell them to all them [ __ ] who make them announcements they going to come back and be like I don't know her I don't know her I don't know her I don't know her she good she might be that over there in the other crowd now with what you saying go ahead but but see that's what I'm saying I'm not saying like all cuz it's impossible to say all of course of course it's a couple most yeah of course it's a couple Butterfly by The hornest Nest but [ __ ] [ __ ] I ain't going to stand by and let the [ __ ] sting me I'm getting the [ __ ] on [ __ ] them butterflies you see what I'm saying so that's all I'm saying like yeah [ __ ] can't it's hard to deci what I said on Instagram standing beside them it's hard to deci which one is which so and I like man and this thing I think think Atlanta is kind of like this [ __ ] [ __ ] you up this [ __ ] [ __ ] you up cuz it's just like the Lifey like man ain't no I ain't really seen no place like Atlanta like this [ __ ] really is the mecca of like Black Culture to me you know what I mean like I feel like [ __ ] Atlanta is like Legend like even if you just staying in Atlanta right now this [ __ ] Legend like this a legend this a legendary City so the [ __ ] that go on here it go on everywhere like that you know what I mean so it's just the the level of competition and you got you you got to be a dog to be out this [ __ ] for real yeah yeah you got to be you got to have some real dog in you for real and most and most people ain't got I ain't going to say most [ __ ] most about people that's outside but now I'm talking about even the [ __ ] working 9 to5 that don't even go nowhere and [ __ ] they can't even keep up like but you know that [ __ ] ain't but a job and and paying bill you G have to do some you GNA have to do something something he ain't gonna be able to just work come home pay bills and be straight unless your ass stay somewhere in caning or something but down here oh no we close to the city but your ass through so you think you ever lock in like on some relationship [ __ ] man I have goddamn go somewhere else not in that like how I used to be seen so much you Tain yeah there's always exception that can't I believe exceptions to the rule I don't know bro I didn't had a [ __ ] in the bed we finished and it be like you just made me commit adultery I'm like what wait what I didn't know you was married damn yeah that a know what I'm saying like a boy say that to everybody so that [ __ ] hit different like damn B that [ __ ] crazy it could be just bad in small towns though they just more sneaky and quiet going I trust that because I know Atlanta exists see what I'm saying so you ain't being brought to Atlanta and tested then you don't know see what I'm saying like she might just be like that she ain't got the opportunity see you ain't got no opportunity to be no hope everybody your daddy the preacher everybody know you in town so you Ain had no opportunity to be no hope bring her to Atlanta unleash her and then she got what she TV see see sh you see on TV right there like right there magic and [ __ ] will try you like nigg be like come here [ __ ] [ __ ] who you would never thought tell you come here tell you come here come here it going to [ __ ] you up it's going to blow your mind man I didn't seen that [ __ ] but that [ __ ] and I tell [ __ ] like man don't bring your girl up here dog don't bring your girl over here man if you if you coming from my of town you come man leave don't bring your old lady man try to move up it with her but none of that [ __ ] dead she just can't do this no more none of they can't do this no more it's too hard I think you should you think bring your girl to Atlanta you going to lock all the way in you need to know what you locking in with yeah they do it us us a woman a woman a woman will bring you around all her badass friends to see what you on yeah they do that [ __ ] to us yeah yeah yeah yeah I go yeah so expose her take her to uh you break around your don't take a center with a friends y'all go have fun n but look you take around your R po but get the poping all that sh man sh going to be in the air like this here over with what facts like they'll come back cuz a lot like I don't really know him like that anyway tell I don't really know I met him for real what we've been together two years it ain't that serious we do that take your serious like like I telling about my buddy right P who had had the bag listen man like you might be [ __ ] that really like me they might think I'm handsome but they not coming home with me but at the end of the night like if if shl say hey what's up they over with yeah I had to respect it I had like okay [ __ ] it I got to get on my grind like I ain't mad that is how the game is right now oh you got the [ __ ] you you got the [ __ ] over there with the looks his buddy got there went here he got bag put him in the pot up for you I had like I had like a oldale rain roll buty got a new bit truck baby go go with him I'm go go go with him go go [ __ ] I see you going I see you going I see you going and I ain't mad cuz I understand the game gu what I'mma have my turn and when I have my turn I don't want none of the old ho that already been [ __ ] up [ __ ] they gonna be all of them no but it's some new [ __ ] coming out the [ __ ] every day oh man it's some [ __ ] coming out the [ __ ] every day brand new don't even know what's out here yeah Michael cor Pur she Michel Michael cor Bel she cool I want to hold bottles I see they they uhuh they already know I already know they know what to buy yeah they know how person ah n i buy my cor coach i d by some Reb classes what you oh man Dam n that [ __ ] that [ __ ] real man sad reality it's Savage out here man like the wor listen man then the raapers don't [ __ ] [ __ ] man if you [ __ ] really bad man it's old we so it's really bad for real like really bad oh it's over with she might have some morals man n this [ __ ] like draing them and DM your girl just a space like put space in send it blank bubble you know what that mean this in the location [ __ ] man [ __ ] send your [ __ ] that big ass air Drake plane facts don't bring nothing they going to pick you up wherever you was standing there stand right there leave everything they going to pick you up to pick you up don't move they to pick you up in some [ __ ] take you to the helicopter helicopter to edate fly your ass to somewhere you never seen before bro you gone that would worth that whole relationship B care man this [ __ ] crazy bro was the [ __ ] true about how how the [ __ ] um how Drake had this sing out there with with her husband he sent the [ __ ] home man it was a story like it was a singer that he was like trying to I guess sign or some [ __ ] he flew her in her husband out and then like for a week or some [ __ ] and then like the last couple days sent the husband home man he [ __ ] cold I just when you about I just said my [ __ ] Joel Silver right shout out was movie producer Big Boy producer he told me a story one time I'm tell B [ __ ] it he said he said his wife when he first seen his wife she was married he told her I'mma marry you but him her and him her and her husband work for him he sent this [ __ ] on a movie for six months in a whole another state and kept the [ __ ] with him and bar I'm telling you bro well not the [ __ ] his wife but I'm just saying it's just like bro it's over with it's over with some [ __ ] what they want they can get if [ __ ] up to say that but did you see what I'm saying cuz [ __ ] put in the full work you better not be slipping a inch like a inch some you better have a slip of an inch and to see if he I'm telling you bro this [ __ ] [ __ ] up and women are cold some women I'm not I'm not um generalized I'm just saying some women are cold BR it'll be like they never knew you yeah for real [ __ ] act like she never even knew your name like you don't exist like how many times you see women do that like men can't really do that like [ __ ] with you I [ __ ] with you no matter what I'm always [ __ ] with this [ __ ] I [ __ ] with her how [ __ ] is [ __ ] be invested yeah [ __ ] be like I [ __ ] with women when they boy this [ __ ] I don't know him and be de serious like I don't know him they don't convince theirself that they don't know you oh man especially especially if it's a [ __ ] around that got some [ __ ] going on but them f w look your way boy but I feel like I feel like for a female to act like she doesn't know a [ __ ] that she wants loved it had to be something that happened but look listen I feel always going to be done happen [ __ ] going to be [ __ ] wom always got a chance to justify their action because something happened we in this [ __ ] or we in this [ __ ] but what's crazy no but what I'm saying is like Mo nine times out of 10 if if a [ __ ] is really in love with a [ __ ] like for real for real like they going to get into it they going to fall out she going to say [ __ ] him a million times but if she really loves this [ __ ] she's G to love this [ __ ] forever but if it's some [ __ ] that like some unfor a lot of women I've been hearing this [ __ ] lately a lot of women be kicking at I can learn the love a [ __ ] and they never be unlearned truly till you see some [ __ ] you really love you thought you was in love that's what most the [ __ ] most the women do they be delusional some some way like they like I heard three women say that like recently I thought I was going to learn to love him it's conveyance versus love too though I think some women men probably too whatever get convenience [ __ ] up with love yeah they they enter into the relationship with potential and they enter the relationship with uh what it could be not what it is like I can't deal with you if it ain't what it is right then like it have to be that I can't potentially feel like that and saying that I love you and knowing you trying to we trying to fall in love we trying to do hell no I can't potentially I can't fake that but if you but okay so let me ask you this then if you don't to some degree fall in love with potential then that's D how how does your how does your love get tested in order for you to be able to know whether or not you can grow with this person that's what I'm saying so it ain't it listen on one thing about it hold up scam one thing about it when a [ __ ] your person you know what it is cuzz you can't it's just something about you know when you love a person you know when you want to love a person you know when I like her a lot but you know if a [ __ ] jump out the bush with a stick you ain't F to try to tote this [ __ ] like I'mma tote my [ __ ] like man hey I'm jump in front you don't think that's that's that's the test would you die [ __ ] jump out shooter stick is you going is you going to try to c shei a [ __ ] around run but but this disconnect I had real [ __ ] though that the truth but this a disconnect though this disconnect because she's thinking like a woman that's how women like women date potential a [ __ ] going to like what he see instantly like if I like you I [ __ ] like you like if a [ __ ] say Hey you my girl we already the God damn but but if but if you like me just based off of what you see then no he saying not see you observing her not the look fact the outer when I see you I see you I don't see what you look like on the outside that's why I tell my wife hey don't ask me unbiased whatever you do going I'm going like it don't ask me if I like it don't ask me if nothing I like you so I don't give a [ __ ] what it is that [ __ ] look good you know what I'm saying so that's just what it is so I can't don't ask me on bias so we don't see potential and [ __ ] yeah we see you you yeah like if I like how you make me feel I feel that if a [ __ ] say if a [ __ ] commit like cuz I don't know like it's hard as [ __ ] for me to say I want to commit cuz if feels like I'm giving up some [ __ ] like so I feel like no no man truly wants to commit but if he find a woman that he feel like man shout shout it shout it worth of everything shout it it like then of course he's going to commit but it's not no easy [ __ ] that [ __ ] just want to do like [ __ ] Ain't just running out here to commit you see what I'm saying like [ __ ] don't want to commit H understand but a [ __ ] will if you find something that you feel like worth like I ain't going to find nothing else like sh like she one of a lifetime I ain't going to find nothing else like her so we ain't looking at her potential cuz sh you could have a a a [ __ ] pot piss in a want throw out of her [ __ ] going godamn hop down on a woman but a woman ain't just going to [ __ ] with no broke straight broke ass no car no house no n [ __ ] she's off the bat they ain't going to do that but gu what man that [ __ ] rare that [ __ ] better have a foot long a foot long goddamn she going to have something that she want he ain't going to just be it going to be something going to be something now that's what I'm saying because a lot of like well not a lot but some some some men are able to and I've seen this happen a million times before some men are able to hide or like finesse the fact that they lack some of the most essential things and then by the time by the time you understand that you've been been Boozled you know what I'm saying like it's too late you already got for you think that [ __ ] been spending the night that [ __ ] really be got there sleeping but see that but but listen one by one but see putting a pair of shoes every day but but this my thing right see women cuz people agree that like women are smarter than men right nah n I'm saying like book smart like right I'm just saying like educational wise I feel like women got more intuition than men I feel like women are more emotionally int I'mma tell you let me say this right quick before I say this I'mma tell you what men do bro and I'm go and give it up [ __ ] hate when they girl be right bro you that [ __ ] that's the only thing piss us off what pissed me off is a [ __ ] can make up something in their head and be right like how you guess that you gu right so wom got superp power now like that why I be trying to tell her like you right about a lot of that [ __ ] but some of that [ __ ] you making up so I ain't going to let you know when you're making it up I ain't going to let you know when you're right you know what I'm saying but you be right though this [ __ ] be like God but this my thing right women know what they be talking about but this my thing right what I'm saying if women are smarter than men so to speak and they believe this right you believe women smarter men I mean yeah okay so then how you get manipulated how you getting tricked then how you don't know a [ __ ] got two pair of jeans how you how you don't know yeah how you don't know that how you don't know a [ __ ] got two pair of jeans I feel like I feel like some women want to believe in the best of a [ __ ] that a [ __ ] might have another pair of jeans somewhere you know what I'm saying like but you only seeing two see I'm saying that what I'm saying like men are more L but but but the women the woman might think that the [ __ ] might not want to expose his hand right away so the two pair is what he's showing to test the water to see if it makes sense to expose the third pair see that's delusion cuz guess what you ain't never been around no rich [ __ ] that just wear two pair of jeans the [ __ ] that really got it they coming out with all this [ __ ] on especially if they like you and they trying to get you they ain't hiding nothing they putting everything on the table CU they trying to get you so a [ __ ] only let me test her with these two jeans come on you know this niggaer ain't got nothing you know it but in your mind you want to believe like I'm making get a good decision even though you know it's some [ __ ] like this [ __ ] ain't got nothing but in your mind you want to make yourself believe that he tricked me he got me he got over on me cuz you know women know man just like you said just like Bank said women got intuition you can't tell that this [ __ ] ain't got nothing yo you ain't know your baby daddy was broke before you had babies with him then you a had one with him you had another one with him yeah that [ __ ] be kind of hard like how can you say you got trick it's just hard to say you got yeah that [ __ ] when women turn into repeat offenders excuse that's excuse you know you know that's what you attract you know what I'm saying and and and and and and and no I just feel like women do make up a lot of [ __ ] in their head but how do you feel about when people say that you like what you like exactly so except that's what you like yeah and stop trying to change [ __ ] [ __ ] you don't like cuz listen bro I'm tell you bro I know like if I was to try to be anybody else but me I probably get a divorce like I'm me but I'm I mean I'm different but I'm me if that make sense what I'm saying like I'm totally different but I'm me like the mors and and [ __ ] that just boy don't do that don't say that and all that that's that's centic you get what I'm saying but I'm me so just imagine if I tried to be somebody else I don't think I would I don't think I don't think she'll go for it even though what me gets on [ __ ] nerd but I try to be something else it ain't going to work out how you a like that okay so let me ask y this then how do y'all feel about it when people say that let's just say say your significant person other person or whatever cheats on you and people say that it doesn't make sense to leave because all you g to do is hook up with another cheater because everybody I agree has their you know their I agree for women I don't know about yeah I agree for women though and I'm say I know that [ __ ] going to sound sexies or whatever they call it but I thought you about to say sexy yeah it ain't it ain't enough [ __ ] fact so you get your [ __ ] up to go find another [ __ ] who just got just got left by another female who he cheated on like it's just a Revol Circle it's just a rev it depend on what you want like cuz all men don't cheat the guys I'm just keeping it real but the guys that y'all yeah don't want be want y'all don't want them guys like I hear so many women be like he boring he didn't he didn't God sent this man fool yeah right but you looking at goddamn be over here wasting time with me you yeah you looking at scam them you know what saying who ain't boy a going ain't going ain't going a lot of [ __ ] ain't going they already know you all the man this this [ __ ] so [ __ ] up cuz most of Mo like most of the time the [ __ ] that's good good the dudes that's good dude women look at them as weird y cornball mhm so like so this nigga's a real man gentle he's a man he's a man you w look God bwood breath B you smokeing bwood cut out you want to hear you hear girl how you don't want to hear that that sound cuz cuz you addicted to the [ __ ] yeah for real and that you ain't never seen that you know your mama going to be like what she doing like y y y y your people goingon to disapprove of that that [ __ ] [ __ ] up bro where you get him from yeah H Square boy H Square Bo sh but lame here but he the one for you and and you right BR be some good ass men and it's funny cuz a lot of folk think and I I had to explain that to cuz you know whenever I do what's name podcast them folk think that [ __ ] real so it be like I be getting hate mail and I just be like damn like this sh a joke yeah you be doing like the yeah that [ __ ] hard though finess finess yeah so it be a joke but I be saying some real [ __ ] so it catch like and that's all this [ __ ] really is just getting emotional response from people you see what I'm saying and boy them folk be going crazy on this [ __ ] like and I'm just saying like man for the most part it's a lot of good [ __ ] out there it just they don't want them [ __ ] they don't like and crazy because they don't even see them [ __ ] like if you if you try to explain like a good [ __ ] they don't even them [ __ ] invisible they only talk about the [ __ ] that they like which is a small percent you see what I'm saying like every [ __ ] ain't like that but the [ __ ] that you probably going to want he like that you see what I'm saying okay I say this right I say this right a woman want a [ __ ] well not all women women want to pull up with a [ __ ] that other [ __ ] respect and and all the [ __ ] that's what it is bro and all the [ __ ] want yeah that's what I'm saying they want to pull yeah pull up with a niggga that ever that the [ __ ] respect and the [ __ ] want that's other than that man not a [ __ ] that's like okay that that that want them [ __ ] who the [ __ ] who like cuz she want to feel a slight sense of of that yeah yeah that you might can yeah like cuz if I feel like I'm the only one want you then no no thrill this ain't man no thrill I feel like they want a [ __ ] they want a niggga to get all the hoes but then they want to get the [ __ ] and make the niggaer not get no more ho damn like I want you to be able to get all the hoes but I don't want I be able to stop you from getting all the hoes to say that I was the one yeah when have you seen that done before that why I keep trying to add the the lates like you seen you you seen your whoever your cousin get cheated on your sister everybody in the circle every no not get cheated on your brother is a cheater your uncle your daddy your cousin your nephew you done help him he ain't here girl he was here all night you done help people cheat what makes you think you f to get the [ __ ] that don't if he D type of [ __ ] I'm not saying all men cheat I'm saying like certain type of [ __ ] is just outside and them [ __ ] it too many I ain't going lie bro I say I think all men do cheat I think you only as faithful as your options I feel like nigg if a [ __ ] ain't capable of cheat then he ain't and most [ __ ] is broke and working for that 30 hours of God damn 24 hours a day they can't cheat [ __ ] depend what your focus is man I'm like I know [ __ ] is [ __ ] in the factory that what I'm saying work them nigg who got there got time to to talk talk they work B out that [ __ ] the [ __ ] nigg super cheating them R [ __ ] they s right there on the they they did a study and show like the the Lesser [ __ ] make the more likely he is to be faithful versus the more money a [ __ ] make the more he you know that though come on but that's what I'm saying so I'm saying like any like what I say to women is like what [ __ ] don't want to be a king like if if if you walk up to a man on the street like but some that [ __ ] don't make some [ __ ] King though other [ __ ] make some I know but I'm just saying like I the reason why I use the term King is because like okay [ __ ] what king had one Queen and no conine just for real like what king just had one wife one and he just was n that [ __ ] [ __ ] everything boy it was a [ __ ] in China boy this [ __ ] if you want to work next to the emperor you had to chop your dick off cuz he had so many hoes you had to chop your dick off to work in the castle in the padet cuz he ain't want you to godamn cuz you know she I know you ain't [ __ ] exactly but he a [ __ ] na here he going to [ __ ] nothing in here cuz guess why [ __ ] I cuz my my my son going to be a Heir so you can't like it ain't no practic test and all DNA test and [ __ ] so you leave your dick at the door come work in the [ __ ] so just think like all I'm saying is like you walk up to any average man and be like hey you you want to be king king of Atlanta for the day what [ __ ] going be like nah like hell yeah I want to cuz Men We value that [ __ ] we value power and Prestige and status and [ __ ] like that ambition you see I'm saying so you saying you saying basically like Ain a [ __ ] if a [ __ ] in a [ __ ] in the right situation to go yeah yeah give a [ __ ] 100 Mil boy what that [ __ ] dick GNA fall off F 100 million and everybody know it everybody know you got 100 milon women know you got 100 million my debate my only debate you got it might and it might be a lot more rare that just mean don't no loyalty exists nowhere for nobody but that philosophy I'm just saying with that philosophy then n but but but but but I got I got I gotta disagree on that because loyalty ain't to me loyalty ain't defined by sex yeah what you talking about to say I'm say he said he just saying get some [ __ ] I ain't saying like leave my wife [ __ ] oh you saying like that I'm saying you some [ __ ] I'm going to play I'm to I'm not I'm not no advocate for Cheetos or none of that but I'm saying is I get what he's saying yeah for real am I Tripp it what I'm saying he's saying like you never know what position you get in and where you start to see yourself at when you start when other people start to see you different but I can't I get what you saying no I I hear what he saying I'm just saying that you that's really it for real so okay so let me let me rephrase then so money will change you but do y'all think loyalty do you think a person if a person cheat on you they're disloyal to you if if y'all if y ain't got the agreement don't cheat H if the agreement if if if if if if if if you cheated on your dude right do you feel like you disloyal to him keep it real yeah I do it depends on how you unless unless unless unless she has an understanding with him that you can cheat n it ain't no understanding with that type of [ __ ] like if I'm with you no it's an understand some people have open relationship with you or whatever then like I'm with you if we've agreed to be together or if we've agreed to do this [ __ ] or however the [ __ ] whatever like say for instance um what if you done did everything else to do everything you took care you got them you there for them they sick they locked up anything you there right but you [ __ ] are you disloyal or unfaith both both unless some some one says you I I know that you're cheating and I don't give look the word see I look that up that's a good I'm telling you look up the word loyalty Loy look at the word loyalty and look up unfaith I think we did this one time on on another podcast on on big facts but are you disloyal or Unfaithful both Unfaithful both that's cold right now right Elite cuz a [ __ ] can do some disloyal [ __ ] to you and be faithful to you disloyal means failing to be loyal to a person or body to which one has obligations but loyalty Unfaithful but loyalty the word faithfulness is in loyalty what's what's lloy faithfulness in a steadfast face of Temptation renounced desert or betray see I'm getting a whole different what's name I don't know strong feeling of support or Alliance thank you that's what that that's Unfaithful is which one you looked up I think this sh Oxford yeah this Oxford I'm saying what's the name loyer you look up loyalty all right loyalty is what a strong feeling of support or Alliance so if you ain't broke the support of Alli or Alliance the alliance could be no the alliance could it's black the alliance the alliance could be that we ain't going to cheat I'm saying we go down that rabbit hole huh we can go down that rabbit holead but if someone does something the respect to make you feel betrayed then it violates loyalty and faithfulness what okay Faith that's all I'm saying of being fa yeah that's like say that's like saying just on some homeboy [ __ ] all right this homeboy always did everything right but then snitch who he told him you see what I'm saying though but but see it's different because like faithfulness is almost like crazy you know that way that's that's the new [ __ ] out here now like [ __ ] ain't told on me who he told on [ __ ] like that's the new [ __ ] that [ __ ] crazy and what's [ __ ] is disgusting I'm so glad I'm so glad I'm a comedian y boy I ain't even got to worry about this [ __ ] I don't even give a [ __ ] about this [ __ ] like boy I'm so glad I ain't even like even cuz it's like man this [ __ ] different bro like I this [ __ ] just way different I never thought that I see today that this [ __ ] would be like you know what I mean [ __ ] R and just keep rapping and keep you know what I mean this [ __ ] crazy for real 2024 so that's why I'm so we I listen man and I always take the [ __ ] to weird space because my mind just be weird sometimes y'all my mind be weird sometime but you see how we create AI right it's Dam nck can can grow to be a life for because AI going to be AI like robots going to be able to make other robots right M it's like a birth go hold up hold up being H me out all right so that's that's basically not humans I guess we're humans not that's basically another form of humanity right if they if they just go to building [ __ ] they we got our own fact we building [ __ ] and they multiply multiply multiply right who's to say that another planet didn't make us and the same [ __ ] hold on hold on hold on let me let me get this off the same little little plug ups and [ __ ] we putting in them they just electric they could have found some [ __ ] like brains organs and all that it's the same [ __ ] cuz it's from a different planet right it's still got damn [ __ ] this uh this at the top [ __ ] this the hard drive no real [ __ ] though am I tripping we got a hard drive computer we got we got a whole our bodies are basically computers right yeah they work like them similar cars if you think about a car car got engine who [ __ ] huh who controls all that what you mean who controls it we probably ran nor Atlanta philosophy that [ __ ] making s though J yeah it ain't but it listen bro we so if AI run off right now who's to say Humanity didn't run off so how they ain't find us if they was in control of us I'm saying we we can we can find a them [ __ ] bucking with sticks and [ __ ] they they them folk gret them folk they [ __ ] they they what they is now I ever heard little Fishbowl Theory what's that basically like the aliens tray the humanity and they just watch us I believe need that bro fish bowl the like like like you know how you just go and look at the fish tank the fish don't know you outside that [ __ ] they don't know what's going on outside the [ __ ] so it's a theory where they say like aliens created us and they just monitor us they just watch yeah I believe they just be watching us and [ __ ] I feel like it's too many of us for that [ __ ] to be going on what bro listen but but but how many shit's on the game you play the game right now you play a whole universe a whole world this [ __ ] is a real world in the yeah that a making [ __ ] you put [ __ ] on your you D near in that [ __ ] I just did a virtual reality [ __ ] over by um by um how me and Shante and dating went that [ __ ] that [ __ ] is real when you put them [ __ ] on your body you DN there you in there yeah the metaverse all that [ __ ] I don't know I think I think is we even woke now go rabbit B even W like [ __ ] you dreams and [ __ ] feel so real now come back so many times for me every day like I think I'm glitched up but you right but listen I had a dream and woke up and had to realize I had kids and [ __ ] I had a dream that I felt like [ __ ] I had a dream that I felt like I was there for like three months like I was living a whole life and all kind of [ __ ] Apartments trapping and all kind of [ __ ] and I woke up [ __ ] I had to be like where the [ __ ] I'm at I thought this [ __ ] was fake I thought what I was at was fake and the dream was real not real [ __ ] yeah that when they say you tapping in you can't determine well you know black folk about to get piles and [ __ ] super piles and [ __ ] huh Black Folk about to get super piles and [ __ ] y'all a see that what's yeah boy they saying Black Folk DNA DNA about to unlock and all kind of [ __ ] about to happen boy I just want to be a to fly and [ __ ] super speed I do think the Matrix I do think the Matrix [ __ ] was real though I do think we plug in and plug out when we go to sleep and wake up can't tell me bro I know I know I be glitching bro I ain't the only [ __ ] glitching y'all [ __ ] just don't be keeping it real [ __ ] just be trying to act like it don't exist I see everything you know what I'm saying you cuz with that fish sandwich yeah man what we doing scream about right it's all good man we appreciate you pulling up the big facts you know what I'm saying let everybody know where they can tap in with you and what you got coming up man look man y'all can tap in with me on YouTube Facebook Instagram Tik Tok everything all the same JQ health is cerski GQ Health J us s t q e H3 FF man the kid that did man you know what I mean if you think only those who think like that think like that man so yeah there it is check us out. bfa.com subscribe like comment share all that on the bigf network salute salute	real I was like uh I was um in the streets just like I ain't G to say everybody else but pretty much you know I demographic I came from the same [ __ ] PIV it and I was always doing I was always like stupid my whole life I can say that I was slow I was slow so I been I've been should have step in comedy but I kind of running from it you know what I mean cuz I Ain I ain't I was I wasn't in no position to be laughed at at the time so when I finally took it serious sat down two months that [ __ ] was out of here at what point did you know you was funny man since I was little I ain't gonna lie like I said I always been a CL clown I always been a [ __ ] roast and always I I I had to fight [ __ ] I roast so good you know what I mean so I always had that aspect to me so I just when I really took it serious like man I'm going to do this comedy [ __ ] like full-fledged nothing else I'm sit down and do it like I said that sh was out of here but I I will say like I I do feel like it chose me instead of me choosing it you know I mean do you think it's important	4	6	7	real I was like uh I was um in the streets just like I ain't G to say everybody else but pretty much you know I demographic I came from the same [ __ ] PIV it and I was always doing I was always like stupid my whole life I can say that I was slow I was slow so I been I've been should have step in comedy but I kind of running from it you know what I mean cuz I Ain I ain't I was I wasn't in no position to be laughed at at the time so when I finally took it serious sat down two months that [ __ ] was out of here	at what point did you know you was funny man	2,-3,4	0,2,5	2	-3	4	0	2	5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-Xsjx4VTfU	4,038	q-Xsjx4VTfU	2024-06-27 00:00:00	[Music] this is big fact Network [Music] exclusive live from the culture lab it's time for big facts big bank is here baby Jade is here DJ Scream is here we're welcoming today a comedian that's very funny you see him online give it up for scam lightly on big facts what's up what's up what's up bro you good man yeah man I have made it man so what you say you scam your way on the big F tell tell us how you got on big F I want to hear the whole story yeah so look man I got damn I had hit bank account but goddamn Bank was so cool about we worked some [ __ ] out and then goam you know I mean I owe them so so this a transaction yeah this transaction I just [ __ ] with you no man for real like shout out my manager uh y sh man brother and you know I mean we been had linked up like I came and did skit on y'all um on the podcast what that was like about a year ago yeah so U man just kept working kept grinding and boom back here so is your Origins comedy or what was you doing before that no I was in some whole other [ __ ] some whole other [ __ ] you can talk about or you can't talk about I can't allegedly I say allegedly but now for real I was like uh I was um in the streets just like I ain't G to say everybody else but pretty much you know I demographic I came from the same [ __ ] PIV it and I was always doing I was always like stupid my whole life I can say that I was slow I was slow so I been I've been should have step in comedy but I kind of running from it you know what I mean cuz I Ain I ain't I was I wasn't in no position to be laughed at at the time so when I finally took it serious sat down two months that [ __ ] was out of here at what point did you know you was funny man since I was little I ain't gonna lie like I said I always been a CL clown I always been a [ __ ] roast and always I I I had to fight [ __ ] I roast so good you know what I mean so I always had that aspect to me so I just when I really took it serious like man I'm going to do this comedy [ __ ] like full-fledged nothing else I'm sit down and do it like I said that sh was out of here but I I will say like I I do feel like it chose me instead of me choosing it you know I mean do you think it's important to be able to do like other other types of comedies like AC in the movie Stand Up and all that type of stuff too or or or or is it if you're a one lane type of comedian is that cool in your opinion I I mean I feel like whatever you comfortable with see what I'm saying because a lot of people ain't comfortable with that stage you know I mean I didn't did all of it so like I don't know like for me I didn't get all of it you know I mean but for everybody I like stand up ain't for everybody you know I mean that [ __ ] a whole different monster you know I me why you say that because it's like like it's [ __ ] that you got to know like you got to know time you know I mean you got to know punch lines you got to know how to build a joke up you know you got to sit traps type [ __ ] I mean so it's like an art front for like it's actually some people that probably ain't even funny in real life but they comedians you see what I'm saying cuz they just know the art of telling jokes ver being just naturally funny like you might be naturally funny and get on stage and can't you that's true just how some of these rap [ __ ] be lying boom same way but they sound good exactly that [ __ ] sound good [ __ ] make [ __ ] sound good you go get some money yeah how it go what's the inspiration for your skits uh cuz a lot of it seem like day-to-day just man really just like life and um me like because and I say that because [ __ ] I'm damn near like a psych patient like you know I mean my mama was a paranoid schizophrenic so I come from like my mind be racing so this [ __ ] like therapy for me I just get to get out [ __ ] that's just in my mind all day which is some stupid [ __ ] that I just be thinking about so now I get to relay that on on on camera so let me answer this so just going back to what you said about your mom how was it growing up in a household with somebody that was battling mental illness like that uh definitely a struggle definitely definitely a struggle like uh I want to say my mom probably was your dad there yeah yeah actually my dad raised me like um okay RP my dad um he actually like like when they split my dad took me so I ra with my dad you know what I mean like okay and and he was a old man like my dad was born 1929 he was in World War II real [ __ ] on God everything my dad born in 1929 [ __ ] in World War II so I so so I be having more on God how how old was your daddy when he had you he had me he was like 50 something okay that that add up yeah yeah yeah okay yeah I'm talking about dead that [ __ ] was in World War II so so he put certain mors and [ __ ] in a [ __ ] that I know people ain't even got no more you know what I mean so that's why people be thinking I sound how I do because you know what I mean like I was raised with a Elder you know I mean that [ __ ] was a real Elder you see what I'm saying so with him he was like the um coherent parent of the group you see what I'm saying my mama was wild Young illness type [ __ ] so my daddy was like the one that took us and raised us you see what I'm saying but growing up in the house with that [ __ ] yeah that [ __ ] was a struggle I think that's why I get my comedic comedic side front cuz my mama she Ain have no fut she'll say anything to anybody at any time and like people didn't know she was you know I mean she was like she had the illness or whatever and they thought that she was trying to be funny or like but it was funny though it was funny though I can't C like my MMA was funny as hell though like rip she was funny as hell she Ain what she'll say anything out M like a like a child worse like a adult that know better but still say some [ __ ] like like for real like your homeboy might come over there she might just look at your homeboy and say some [ __ ] like I bet your dick little out of nowhere real [ __ ] where you from originally originally I was born in tusi Alabama I was born in my grandma house 46 yeah I went to school down there oh you did yeah they told you with the locals oh I'm cool with a couple of them shouts the street of Frank Walkin some of them so was your daddy a part of the experiment that they did down there no uh no my dad U he was from Chicago so he had came later but yeah Tusk experiments like a lot of my family members and [ __ ] was affected by that like d yeah did they ever give them reparations for that I think they just now I think they just yeah yeah they did yeah they did yeah they they got reparation for it but it was only like a small group of them left by time they did get to him what you think about this [ __ ] cat you watch that cat we [ __ ] yeah hell what you think about that I think it's a lot of truth to it like I don't know I don't know them folk person I don't want to say too much cuz godamn I ain't trying to get black ball before I get I just talking [ __ ] but now I I I definitely I see that [ __ ] here like you know I mean it's like a you know kind of like a little pecking order gatekeeping type [ __ ] like people gatekeep in all rounds no matter how big small so I think every city got that [ __ ] and then you get to the industry they got their own Gatekeepers so or you feel like they be trying to hold [ __ ] out you think you think that's possible yeah well I ain't going to say it I I think if you weak if you weak it'll stop you like [ __ ] like you know what I mean if you don't say [ __ ] I'm make it anyway know I mean it can scare you off and you just like I seen some with um the Wayne brother he was like somebody said something to him and he start doing stand up for like 10 years so that [ __ ] can really you know what I mean shake you in the wrong way you the whole body if you let it you know I mean but I feel like if you're a [ __ ] that come from nothing I truly feel like what's for you is for you though that's true I don't know it might be harder for you I don't feel like no n can keep you out yeah it might keep you out of they Circle yeah that's what said they situation yeah but this [ __ ] too big man you can make a way man I be [ __ ] excuses I feel but I I I feel the way you feel but I also feel like if the right [ __ ] sprays your name then it's going to be I don't want to say next to Impossible but it can be super [ __ ] overly extremely difficult in mostu but it's it's it still B down to B down to how hard you go look at the [ __ ] that they do spray the [ __ ] going hard about this [ __ ] man yeah but [ __ ] look how I look that's true look look at the [ __ ] who it's a it's a it's a lot of casual to that [ __ ] what I'm saying it's a lot of casualty to that [ __ ] because I feel like you laid down at the end of the day that's true that what I said what I said like if you weak you going to fold you going to fold in on yourself that [ __ ] really be mental like if somebody get in your head and you don't get that [ __ ] out Bo like [ __ ] what's the [ __ ] name B Simon that [ __ ] went what number one FK got in that [ __ ] head he Ain like performing to his best n they ain't getting they ain't getting his head he want it he W it he W it yeah sometimes CU I I don't really know a lot about that [ __ ] I just know R talked about him in the song he said like Ben Timmons I ain't going nowhere or something yeah he had a hell of a agent he had a hell of a agent they giving him money based on what they thought he might be able to do what I'm saying he ain't never do it though but the [ __ ] it paid him based off of his potential exactly but he got man he got gunshot BR the man wouldn't even shoot the basketball man that's in your head he wouldn't even take a shot n he ain't shoo bro cuz he wasn't going to make it man he didn't shoot it he could he could he didn't even drive I'm just saying if okay let's take Ben Simmons maybe I'm being in a homer and let's take Ant-Man all right Antman shoot that's what I was saying last night what I said what I said if you weak I'm saying like he mentally KN up it's you right I see what you say you say take the shot forget that like an is from the west side that dog I know to do matter [ __ ] lay down everywhere it's a [ __ ] laying down on every side of town same how you name one [ __ ] that stood up I bet we can a fire [ __ ] that done laid down laid down [ __ ] [ __ ] up Z they ain't do nothing to Zion he did it to himself I mean who Z the big dude who be smashing the porn or whatever Zion Williamson the boy can jump though like boy can jump yeah you getting paid to jump jumping don't win championships and games but it's early too though early super early he got he got a minute man he still got he got time to like when did he get signed once you he been in the league six years that ain't ear I been in about six years yeah I'm thinking like three n he been playing hurt two of them oh yeah that's what it is that's that's what it is that's is my opinion when when it comes to like the athlete [ __ ] some people just ain't got it but that's what I'm saying like people I think a lot of people put emphasis on it like that [ __ ] just everywhere that [ __ ] ain't that [ __ ] real rare but if but if you're not it and then on top of that you don't have self-esteem then like you're going you're going to flop every time you going to f in on yourself like you going to be your worst enemy you going to godamn you're going to implode facts hey what what a character scam come from man this [ __ ] so crazy so the the interview that future did with Kevin Sam I watched that interview I like well that [ __ ] don't give a [ __ ] about [ __ ] just just his demeanor how he was just like yeah I me a [ __ ] by like I like but this [ __ ] just so nonchalant so I was like damn what if the scammer was like that like [ __ ] just pull all kind of moves don't give a [ __ ] about the consequences so and it's crazy I watched I I the interview was on TV and I just like hey I want to shoot a skit by the Atlanta scammer and then in like 10 minutes I just he like he need a name I was like [ __ ] scam like Le oh like scam likely I'm like no not likely but like Le like l e e so I just ran with that [ __ ] and that [ __ ] just stuck so hard that people like people don't even call me by my name they just call me scam introdu you fact so I like [ __ ] scam so I just ran with it man and that [ __ ] just naturally like took off because I feel like you know that's what we living in anyway what you think about SC game I mean [ __ ] is though you go with your move like you had if it made sense yeah yeah [ __ ] me too if it made sense like I feel like I did everything it is to do in the streets like everything like a [ __ ] that played all positions in that [ __ ] I had been a fake ass little pimp before godamn s everything it is I did everything so [ __ ] why not riding around that man we was making no money man but that [ __ ] him [ __ ] the hard [ __ ] listen [ __ ] listen sh but then the crazy thing is just talking to them folk like when you talk like real PE and [ __ ] they be like you got to coach the [ __ ] talk I ain't got the patience to keep talking to no [ __ ] about some [ __ ] just keep on telling you some [ __ ] that you should know [ __ ] that I go get me some drugs or something baby this [ __ ] slow oh when with that turning point though huh like the Turn Point like man I'm just feel cuz you always legit now right yo for sure why he looking around I won't be on big face for real no I am though we in the turtle what it was though like you know [ __ ] I ain't going to lie but you know the pandemic had [ __ ] boom [ __ ] was eating good like you know I mean so I had enough money to where I was like damn I can kind of ease up off this you know I mean this [ __ ] cuz at first like I said I I never wanted to do comedy because of that like I mean I was dealing with [ __ ] in the street I ain't really want no [ __ ] to feel like I was no funny [ __ ] you know what I mean when you dealing with certain amount of money so once I once I felt like I made enough money then I was like [ __ ] I can kind of start doing comedy like you know doing my skits and [ __ ] so like I said I had sat down like um my turning my main turning point though was and this is trueu I had went to Miami for new years and [ __ ] so I had on took a I thought was edible so I ate a edible but I don't know what for issue was like it it had to be like strs or something yeah cuz boy I had the worst trip of my life [ __ ] like I'm I'm I'm zooed you know you you know when you get too high you think you about to die and [ __ ] that's what I was on I'm like well I'm I'm G I'm out of here so so I walk to the gas station to get some milk drunk drunk drunk a gallon of milk that man that [ __ ] only wors when you swallow dope no no that milk workk any natural high and that milk work that sh why the [ __ ] y'all ain't G me milk that day I was TR to die want to see it you milk what you talking about let no El kill you bro you just tripping but that how that [ __ ] had me that [ __ ] do that [ __ ] take you to a psychedelic listen boy that [ __ ] had listen I swear to God on everything I got back to the room after drinking the milk [ __ ] I lay on the bed I'm like I'm going to die I just Clos my eyes I'm in the universe I'm just in the universe like but I can see my body on the bed with my ey closed I owe my eyes I'm back in the room close my eyes I'm in the universe so I start seeing myself on stage with a microphone like that was astro Projection what when you had that where you supposed to be at though that's what I was saying like but I think what it is though I think it's it's like a unified Feld and you see all the possibilities that you can be right so that was me in the future looking back at me like see what I'm saying even with Dreams yeah exactly like [ __ ] was telling me come on like do what we on so I'm like man I'm going to do this [ __ ] then I got back to Atlanta boy my cousin was standing with him but [ __ ] tow tow a hole in my head thing gone you yeah why part me empty [ __ ] gone all [ __ ] gone you know I mean see make sense yeah I see see yeah we CH we chopped up and [ __ ] y chopped it up yeah I mean you was just like no regular chop up like you know I mean but you know I mean like like what what the excuse was why he broke in your [ __ ] no I say he was standing [ __ ] that [ __ ] a break in that [ __ ] lit there I'm saying where the excuse was taking out with the [ __ ] uh I don't even remember so about like he probably felt like I owed him or some [ __ ] yeah but it probably wasn't that you know what I mean but like he was staying with you and you owed him it be like that sometime the [ __ ] kind of [ __ ] but but you just know like you know I mean like [ __ ] was just getting out the fed you know [ __ ] PTSD like you know what I mean home to steep so you know what I mean home you doing stand up yeah yeah I didn't I didn't did stand up I did step away from it though cuz like I said it's it's so much politics and that [ __ ] and that [ __ ] ain't paying nothing they think it ain't paying nothing I got a little something for you want do [ __ ] show yeah we September I when is it April May damn that's May May 4th Saturday May 4 okay you know I got I gota get back on stage that [ __ ] A that [ __ ] ain't just like no just you know I mean that [ __ ] real real you got to get back up St you just got to get in your bag right yeah yeah but but it's like like I said like it's about time so like that's why you do it every night so you can got damn sharpen your your skills no we had um we had my man on here man don't you you got to get you gotta got damn we just had Henry up here right oh yeah yeah Henry my boy yeah Henry said the same [ __ ] like you got to exercise [ __ ] going and 100 50 people rooms 25 people in the room you still gota go work your material even if you comeing in [ __ ] working on us yeah for real people you got to work that material bro if a n GNA do this [ __ ] n gota do it all the way no but see that's what I was saying like so I noticed like if you try to do that and the content one of them going to suffer see what I'm saying so why you say that because like the amount of time that you got to take like like [ __ ] what's her name did it country Wayne did it but he he I'm saying like them [ __ ] beat but but what I'm saying like once they did one of them surer I ain't going to say like the quality of the content serer but the amount that you putting out going to go down you got to balance it at that point you got to balance it yeah I know it but I'm saying like far as like especially like now because [ __ ] gate you see what I'm saying so it's still like I ain't like [ __ ] don't like internet comedians for real that I to say really respect yeah exactly like you get chance pause edit you get a chance do all that [ __ ] want that [ __ ] on the spot but but it's the thing though it's like she like they it's kind of like the old mindset like how [ __ ] was Pass Out CD ain't no more CD so [ __ ] don't know how to transition you see what I'm saying so it's kind of like that like they be want you to just only do stand up rooms and [ __ ] but it's like I got the internet why would I go touch a whole another see what I'm saying like you can reach way more still though them [ __ ] but [ __ ] Ain't Going [ __ ] [ __ ] don't really internet comedian oh but iig who like being the trench you know what I'm saying the people do like I love it yeah but I'm saying like comedians who gotdamn know where they got it from gotam getting them $20 nights godamn [ __ ] [ __ ] that got a drink you know saying [ __ ] get a [ __ ] [ __ ] like them nigg feel like they got it out the mud but that's still like a yeah [ __ ] up um perspective but I get it you know what I'm saying for what they feel like what they put in every comedian should put in but [ __ ] something it's the luck of the [ __ ] gu what I got this [ __ ] out the mud too I got this [ __ ] with a phone and a goddamn ring light a cheat one at that godamn exactly you know I mean cord breaking off that [ __ ] I had to wire that b back together put some tape around it so it's the same [ __ ] it's just like I said it's people perspective like you know what I mean and me honestly I ain't going to give a [ __ ] what another [ __ ] think about me like [ __ ] I ain't in it to be you know I mean I mean do you feel do you feel sometime like man yeah I need I need to goam go and get in that I need to go on and Mer that part so then let them know I can do it do you ever ever get but I did I ain't going to lie I did you see what I'm saying like I performed at a you know what I mean like a at a high stage what you know I mean [ __ ] some big dogs from the city like boy you got it know I mean it just like I said that [ __ ] wasn't making no sense for me and it's taking away from some [ __ ] that do make money so what I'm saying like I'm making money on Instagram and Facebook and [ __ ] like that so I'm making way more money than I would be trying to do taking a risk anything $200 [ __ ] you got to get into it with anything n that [ __ ] your security none of that [ __ ] yeah that [ __ ] A you been spank the [ __ ] on camera for what hell cuz the nigg [ __ ] G they move yeah cuz I ain't going to think I'm black out a whole another side be like oh n that [ __ ] don't even want that turn the big to workout what it name big Q got turn the big Q onig ass yeah I don't even want to play n but you get what I'm saying though yeah that [ __ ] that that don't make sense to be cuz I went gotam I would just say if I I want to be a rapper right there I would do my [ __ ] online I wouldn't be at no open mics that [ __ ] dangerous yeah what I'm saying like [ __ ] like like you not going to gain no fans from that [ __ ] like I had a homeboy yes you are no you yes you are fans from what okay from from like open m stand up talk open mik rapping or you talking about stand up comedian stand up comedian I'm saying you make no money off no you might not make no money off of it but you like people will put your name with your face and it'll like help increase your family I agree that but well you got to get on the internet the internet no the internet is definitely over it but I'm saying touching the people is is going to make a difference also but most of the people outside [ __ ] but then what I say though like other crew y'all rapping my bad J y'all rapping other crew other open mic and you f then we got to get into it cuz you f yeah how this [ __ ] go comedian comedian okay we on the same show together [ __ ] mad at me cuz I just was funny as hell y that'll get you [ __ ] up real talk like cuz then they ain't going to want to put you on their show you see what I'm saying because every like I feel like most comedians everybody want to feel like the funnyest [ __ ] in the room just like okay a artist right let's say if two artists in the room and one get to playing his music the other [ __ ] going to get be ready for him to cut him music off so he can play his [ __ ] like come on man r that [ __ ] up so I can play my [ __ ] my [ __ ] F like your [ __ ] cool but my [ __ ] so it's the same thing you know mean it's the same [ __ ] and doing open mics [ __ ] steal your jokes I had a [ __ ] steal my whole [ __ ] and do the [ __ ] the next day because I was like I ain't know you see what I'm saying so they we was talking about that yeah so they'll tell you like don't do open mics and comedy cuz writers and [ __ ] be in the crowd to Ste [ __ ] jokes remix so it's a conspiracy yeah GNA remix your [ __ ] yeah like he ain't going nowh with that he funny I see what he Tred to do I'm show how to do it like your delivery or something might be off what I'm saying you how to do you a real funny ass [ __ ] get your [ __ ] too fast I know how to do it I know how to perform the joke better than and then boom got some of they [ __ ] with your [ __ ] that [ __ ] is that [ __ ] out of here TV so it just this [ __ ] just like I said sh just like a rap game you had to skit one time about like dating in Atlanta and [ __ ] what's your like what's your take on dating in Atlanta man have fun God damn don't take nothing serious like this [ __ ] ain't serious out here for real what you mean I feel like this [ __ ] a big ass high school for real I mean like Atlanta man I I would me personally I wouldn't like for love and no [ __ ] out here like for real like I feel like if you ain't already got it like new generation New Age day this [ __ ] over with like if you ain't already got love and marriage and wife and all that [ __ ] over with in Atlanta as of today it's a rap what you saying in a certain age group or just period or just period because everybody mind mind frames have change you see what I'm saying everybody mind is right now she it's okay to hurt whoever is long as is you happy like everybody feel like everything Justified as long as I'm looking out for me and I'm happy then she it's whatever it's cold real you saying no no consideration for nobody nobody if you look at everything everybody talking about online and all the toxicity [ __ ] everybody really just out for self and it's okay like like everybody promoe it's okay to be for yourself like no team ball no nothing I ain't going to lie I I help a lot of people though but I I I I've been on that lately like [ __ ] that I got to figure me out cuz that's the way the world live bro yeah but that's what I'm saying saying that the way the world live like whoever with me like this [ __ ] we doing yeah yeah this me figuring me out I can't worry about goddamn going play goddamn tennis yeah you know what I'm saying cuz my my buddy want to play tennis all day ain't no money in tennis bro for me I need to be right here doing this [ __ ] so I got to do what serve me I don't I don't knock that so that's why that's why I'm saying like the D SC sh like that like [ __ ] ain't nobody really going to stick it out with no [ __ ] till it's too late you see what I'm saying like that's how I feel anyway from my experience and your ass ain't lit ain't got nothing for you so you saying like the ho going anyway going gone they gone get the elevator with that SM that B that b he don't know what you say oh yeah really that that Clyde Christian but you know what I mean CDE be G out of here what's that come on what floor you stay on oh seven whole time [ __ ] paying for the [ __ ] all kind of [ __ ] tricky you don't think it's a circle though I think you don't think it's the circle like it's like that circle of people he right see see see you you speaking from where you at he's saying like outside the circle is different though but I but but this the thing I say with men it might be you see what I'm saying like for the for the men that's outside that Circle they don't know what we talking about see what I'm saying they don't but all the women know because they all going to get brought into that Circle see what I'm saying all women been out somewhere and a [ __ ] didn't caught they ey [ __ ] with some money and they gone they gone cuz Atlanta like Atlanta like people it's a wom that it's a wom that be it's a women that be up in Chastain Park at some [ __ ] Neil Soul jazz [ __ ] that be out the way yeah you talking about a different Circle CC you talking about the hook you talking about the Hooka Circle no uh I'm talking about all walk the [ __ ] is the hookah Circle CC the hookah lounges and [ __ ] n I'm talking about all no but I mean it's it's people like it's people that go to the hookah lounges the hookah Circle or whatever they got their own money that's not giv a Fu about what another [ __ ] got but it's not that it's not also just about money see that's what like I ain't saying like what it is SC it's just that stuff on like it's just that stuff like you know certain people got that stuff right so what I'm saying is like and the reason why I say that the reason why I say that because I I watched like when I was a young [ __ ] my partner this [ __ ] had everything this [ __ ] uh drop head godamn benty truck all this [ __ ] I done watch every type of woman from every type of Walk of Life come in the [ __ ] spot and he tell them folks straight up the [ __ ] make Ann hey look you ain't going to suck like at the end of night you can get up and get the [ __ ] out and I Ain never see not one woman get up and leave like got me [ __ ] up and I seen the [ __ ] with doctors lawyers them them so-called Neo Soul [ __ ] I ain't never seen not one of them get up and say no [ __ ] up never by them folks oh now you put yourself in that position now what he saying is listen it's hoes everywhere yeah I'm talk about scientist nurse doctor D judges whatever hoes women going to be women some of them but what he's saying is he's saying the on they don't even allow theyel to pull up on bro that's what I'm saying cuz we talk it don't matter what walk a life it's still a select few women she can be outside and still won't pull up on you I know some [ __ ] who ain't going I know a lot of them going but some of them ain't going but see that's a lot of them that ain't going some of them ain't going I'mma keep it 100 he take that right [ __ ] but some of still but okay what what you said take cuz we all know son like damn ain't nobody like everybody compar like but you ain't nobody [ __ ] who we know [ __ ] nobody but like you said you said take that right [ __ ] right now knowing how competitive Atlanta is you don't think that [ __ ] somewh in the crowd know he in the crowd but the thing about it is she know that but it like I a listen listen I'm going to V with some of them CU I know some of them bro just because and that's then the one to elevate too yes like we like it's it's like going every circle of [ __ ] all my budy is sniper diapers yeah so we going to know who done smashed her like what about her like [ __ ] send your picture around yeah that what [ __ ] do like who this is if I DM you a girl you know what that mean who this is yeah oh that oh that you send that [ __ ] around to the [ __ ] who already who making them announcements tell them to all them [ __ ] who make them announcements they going to come back and be like I don't know her I don't know her I don't know her I don't know her she good she might be that over there in the other crowd now with what you saying go ahead but but see that's what I'm saying I'm not saying like all cuz it's impossible to say all of course of course it's a couple most yeah of course it's a couple Butterfly by The hornest Nest but [ __ ] [ __ ] I ain't going to stand by and let the [ __ ] sting me I'm getting the [ __ ] on [ __ ] them butterflies you see what I'm saying so that's all I'm saying like yeah [ __ ] can't it's hard to deci what I said on Instagram standing beside them it's hard to deci which one is which so and I like man and this thing I think think Atlanta is kind of like this [ __ ] [ __ ] you up this [ __ ] [ __ ] you up cuz it's just like the Lifey like man ain't no I ain't really seen no place like Atlanta like this [ __ ] really is the mecca of like Black Culture to me you know what I mean like I feel like [ __ ] Atlanta is like Legend like even if you just staying in Atlanta right now this [ __ ] Legend like this a legend this a legendary City so the [ __ ] that go on here it go on everywhere like that you know what I mean so it's just the the level of competition and you got you you got to be a dog to be out this [ __ ] for real yeah yeah you got to be you got to have some real dog in you for real and most and most people ain't got I ain't going to say most [ __ ] most about people that's outside but now I'm talking about even the [ __ ] working 9 to5 that don't even go nowhere and [ __ ] they can't even keep up like but you know that [ __ ] ain't but a job and and paying bill you G have to do some you GNA have to do something something he ain't gonna be able to just work come home pay bills and be straight unless your ass stay somewhere in caning or something but down here oh no we close to the city but your ass through so you think you ever lock in like on some relationship [ __ ] man I have goddamn go somewhere else not in that like how I used to be seen so much you Tain yeah there's always exception that can't I believe exceptions to the rule I don't know bro I didn't had a [ __ ] in the bed we finished and it be like you just made me commit adultery I'm like what wait what I didn't know you was married damn yeah that a know what I'm saying like a boy say that to everybody so that [ __ ] hit different like damn B that [ __ ] crazy it could be just bad in small towns though they just more sneaky and quiet going I trust that because I know Atlanta exists see what I'm saying so you ain't being brought to Atlanta and tested then you don't know see what I'm saying like she might just be like that she ain't got the opportunity see you ain't got no opportunity to be no hope everybody your daddy the preacher everybody know you in town so you Ain had no opportunity to be no hope bring her to Atlanta unleash her and then she got what she TV see see sh you see on TV right there like right there magic and [ __ ] will try you like nigg be like come here [ __ ] [ __ ] who you would never thought tell you come here tell you come here come here it going to [ __ ] you up it's going to blow your mind man I didn't seen that [ __ ] but that [ __ ] and I tell [ __ ] like man don't bring your girl up here dog don't bring your girl over here man if you if you coming from my of town you come man leave don't bring your old lady man try to move up it with her but none of that [ __ ] dead she just can't do this no more none of they can't do this no more it's too hard I think you should you think bring your girl to Atlanta you going to lock all the way in you need to know what you locking in with yeah they do it us us a woman a woman a woman will bring you around all her badass friends to see what you on yeah they do that [ __ ] to us yeah yeah yeah yeah I go yeah so expose her take her to uh you break around your don't take a center with a friends y'all go have fun n but look you take around your R po but get the poping all that sh man sh going to be in the air like this here over with what facts like they'll come back cuz a lot like I don't really know him like that anyway tell I don't really know I met him for real what we've been together two years it ain't that serious we do that take your serious like like I telling about my buddy right P who had had the bag listen man like you might be [ __ ] that really like me they might think I'm handsome but they not coming home with me but at the end of the night like if if shl say hey what's up they over with yeah I had to respect it I had like okay [ __ ] it I got to get on my grind like I ain't mad that is how the game is right now oh you got the [ __ ] you you got the [ __ ] over there with the looks his buddy got there went here he got bag put him in the pot up for you I had like I had like a oldale rain roll buty got a new bit truck baby go go with him I'm go go go with him go go [ __ ] I see you going I see you going I see you going and I ain't mad cuz I understand the game gu what I'mma have my turn and when I have my turn I don't want none of the old ho that already been [ __ ] up [ __ ] they gonna be all of them no but it's some new [ __ ] coming out the [ __ ] every day oh man it's some [ __ ] coming out the [ __ ] every day brand new don't even know what's out here yeah Michael cor Pur she Michel Michael cor Bel she cool I want to hold bottles I see they they uhuh they already know I already know they know what to buy yeah they know how person ah n i buy my cor coach i d by some Reb classes what you oh man Dam n that [ __ ] that [ __ ] real man sad reality it's Savage out here man like the wor listen man then the raapers don't [ __ ] [ __ ] man if you [ __ ] really bad man it's old we so it's really bad for real like really bad oh it's over with she might have some morals man n this [ __ ] like draing them and DM your girl just a space like put space in send it blank bubble you know what that mean this in the location [ __ ] man [ __ ] send your [ __ ] that big ass air Drake plane facts don't bring nothing they going to pick you up wherever you was standing there stand right there leave everything they going to pick you up to pick you up don't move they to pick you up in some [ __ ] take you to the helicopter helicopter to edate fly your ass to somewhere you never seen before bro you gone that would worth that whole relationship B care man this [ __ ] crazy bro was the [ __ ] true about how how the [ __ ] um how Drake had this sing out there with with her husband he sent the [ __ ] home man it was a story like it was a singer that he was like trying to I guess sign or some [ __ ] he flew her in her husband out and then like for a week or some [ __ ] and then like the last couple days sent the husband home man he [ __ ] cold I just when you about I just said my [ __ ] Joel Silver right shout out was movie producer Big Boy producer he told me a story one time I'm tell B [ __ ] it he said he said his wife when he first seen his wife she was married he told her I'mma marry you but him her and him her and her husband work for him he sent this [ __ ] on a movie for six months in a whole another state and kept the [ __ ] with him and bar I'm telling you bro well not the [ __ ] his wife but I'm just saying it's just like bro it's over with it's over with some [ __ ] what they want they can get if [ __ ] up to say that but did you see what I'm saying cuz [ __ ] put in the full work you better not be slipping a inch like a inch some you better have a slip of an inch and to see if he I'm telling you bro this [ __ ] [ __ ] up and women are cold some women I'm not I'm not um generalized I'm just saying some women are cold BR it'll be like they never knew you yeah for real [ __ ] act like she never even knew your name like you don't exist like how many times you see women do that like men can't really do that like [ __ ] with you I [ __ ] with you no matter what I'm always [ __ ] with this [ __ ] I [ __ ] with her how [ __ ] is [ __ ] be invested yeah [ __ ] be like I [ __ ] with women when they boy this [ __ ] I don't know him and be de serious like I don't know him they don't convince theirself that they don't know you oh man especially especially if it's a [ __ ] around that got some [ __ ] going on but them f w look your way boy but I feel like I feel like for a female to act like she doesn't know a [ __ ] that she wants loved it had to be something that happened but look listen I feel always going to be done happen [ __ ] going to be [ __ ] wom always got a chance to justify their action because something happened we in this [ __ ] or we in this [ __ ] but what's crazy no but what I'm saying is like Mo nine times out of 10 if if a [ __ ] is really in love with a [ __ ] like for real for real like they going to get into it they going to fall out she going to say [ __ ] him a million times but if she really loves this [ __ ] she's G to love this [ __ ] forever but if it's some [ __ ] that like some unfor a lot of women I've been hearing this [ __ ] lately a lot of women be kicking at I can learn the love a [ __ ] and they never be unlearned truly till you see some [ __ ] you really love you thought you was in love that's what most the [ __ ] most the women do they be delusional some some way like they like I heard three women say that like recently I thought I was going to learn to love him it's conveyance versus love too though I think some women men probably too whatever get convenience [ __ ] up with love yeah they they enter into the relationship with potential and they enter the relationship with uh what it could be not what it is like I can't deal with you if it ain't what it is right then like it have to be that I can't potentially feel like that and saying that I love you and knowing you trying to we trying to fall in love we trying to do hell no I can't potentially I can't fake that but if you but okay so let me ask you this then if you don't to some degree fall in love with potential then that's D how how does your how does your love get tested in order for you to be able to know whether or not you can grow with this person that's what I'm saying so it ain't it listen on one thing about it hold up scam one thing about it when a [ __ ] your person you know what it is cuzz you can't it's just something about you know when you love a person you know when you want to love a person you know when I like her a lot but you know if a [ __ ] jump out the bush with a stick you ain't F to try to tote this [ __ ] like I'mma tote my [ __ ] like man hey I'm jump in front you don't think that's that's that's the test would you die [ __ ] jump out shooter stick is you going is you going to try to c shei a [ __ ] around run but but this disconnect I had real [ __ ] though that the truth but this a disconnect though this disconnect because she's thinking like a woman that's how women like women date potential a [ __ ] going to like what he see instantly like if I like you I [ __ ] like you like if a [ __ ] say Hey you my girl we already the God damn but but if but if you like me just based off of what you see then no he saying not see you observing her not the look fact the outer when I see you I see you I don't see what you look like on the outside that's why I tell my wife hey don't ask me unbiased whatever you do going I'm going like it don't ask me if I like it don't ask me if nothing I like you so I don't give a [ __ ] what it is that [ __ ] look good you know what I'm saying so that's just what it is so I can't don't ask me on bias so we don't see potential and [ __ ] yeah we see you you yeah like if I like how you make me feel I feel that if a [ __ ] say if a [ __ ] commit like cuz I don't know like it's hard as [ __ ] for me to say I want to commit cuz if feels like I'm giving up some [ __ ] like so I feel like no no man truly wants to commit but if he find a woman that he feel like man shout shout it shout it worth of everything shout it it like then of course he's going to commit but it's not no easy [ __ ] that [ __ ] just want to do like [ __ ] Ain't just running out here to commit you see what I'm saying like [ __ ] don't want to commit H understand but a [ __ ] will if you find something that you feel like worth like I ain't going to find nothing else like sh like she one of a lifetime I ain't going to find nothing else like her so we ain't looking at her potential cuz sh you could have a a a [ __ ] pot piss in a want throw out of her [ __ ] going godamn hop down on a woman but a woman ain't just going to [ __ ] with no broke straight broke ass no car no house no n [ __ ] she's off the bat they ain't going to do that but gu what man that [ __ ] rare that [ __ ] better have a foot long a foot long goddamn she going to have something that she want he ain't going to just be it going to be something going to be something now that's what I'm saying because a lot of like well not a lot but some some some men are able to and I've seen this happen a million times before some men are able to hide or like finesse the fact that they lack some of the most essential things and then by the time by the time you understand that you've been been Boozled you know what I'm saying like it's too late you already got for you think that [ __ ] been spending the night that [ __ ] really be got there sleeping but see that but but listen one by one but see putting a pair of shoes every day but but this my thing right see women cuz people agree that like women are smarter than men right nah n I'm saying like book smart like right I'm just saying like educational wise I feel like women got more intuition than men I feel like women are more emotionally int I'mma tell you let me say this right quick before I say this I'mma tell you what men do bro and I'm go and give it up [ __ ] hate when they girl be right bro you that [ __ ] that's the only thing piss us off what pissed me off is a [ __ ] can make up something in their head and be right like how you guess that you gu right so wom got superp power now like that why I be trying to tell her like you right about a lot of that [ __ ] but some of that [ __ ] you making up so I ain't going to let you know when you're making it up I ain't going to let you know when you're right you know what I'm saying but you be right though this [ __ ] be like God but this my thing right women know what they be talking about but this my thing right what I'm saying if women are smarter than men so to speak and they believe this right you believe women smarter men I mean yeah okay so then how you get manipulated how you getting tricked then how you don't know a [ __ ] got two pair of jeans how you how you don't know yeah how you don't know that how you don't know a [ __ ] got two pair of jeans I feel like I feel like some women want to believe in the best of a [ __ ] that a [ __ ] might have another pair of jeans somewhere you know what I'm saying like but you only seeing two see I'm saying that what I'm saying like men are more L but but but the women the woman might think that the [ __ ] might not want to expose his hand right away so the two pair is what he's showing to test the water to see if it makes sense to expose the third pair see that's delusion cuz guess what you ain't never been around no rich [ __ ] that just wear two pair of jeans the [ __ ] that really got it they coming out with all this [ __ ] on especially if they like you and they trying to get you they ain't hiding nothing they putting everything on the table CU they trying to get you so a [ __ ] only let me test her with these two jeans come on you know this niggaer ain't got nothing you know it but in your mind you want to believe like I'm making get a good decision even though you know it's some [ __ ] like this [ __ ] ain't got nothing but in your mind you want to make yourself believe that he tricked me he got me he got over on me cuz you know women know man just like you said just like Bank said women got intuition you can't tell that this [ __ ] ain't got nothing yo you ain't know your baby daddy was broke before you had babies with him then you a had one with him you had another one with him yeah that [ __ ] be kind of hard like how can you say you got trick it's just hard to say you got yeah that [ __ ] when women turn into repeat offenders excuse that's excuse you know you know that's what you attract you know what I'm saying and and and and and and and no I just feel like women do make up a lot of [ __ ] in their head but how do you feel about when people say that you like what you like exactly so except that's what you like yeah and stop trying to change [ __ ] [ __ ] you don't like cuz listen bro I'm tell you bro I know like if I was to try to be anybody else but me I probably get a divorce like I'm me but I'm I mean I'm different but I'm me if that make sense what I'm saying like I'm totally different but I'm me like the mors and and [ __ ] that just boy don't do that don't say that and all that that's that's centic you get what I'm saying but I'm me so just imagine if I tried to be somebody else I don't think I would I don't think I don't think she'll go for it even though what me gets on [ __ ] nerd but I try to be something else it ain't going to work out how you a like that okay so let me ask y this then how do y'all feel about it when people say that let's just say say your significant person other person or whatever cheats on you and people say that it doesn't make sense to leave because all you g to do is hook up with another cheater because everybody I agree has their you know their I agree for women I don't know about yeah I agree for women though and I'm say I know that [ __ ] going to sound sexies or whatever they call it but I thought you about to say sexy yeah it ain't it ain't enough [ __ ] fact so you get your [ __ ] up to go find another [ __ ] who just got just got left by another female who he cheated on like it's just a Revol Circle it's just a rev it depend on what you want like cuz all men don't cheat the guys I'm just keeping it real but the guys that y'all yeah don't want be want y'all don't want them guys like I hear so many women be like he boring he didn't he didn't God sent this man fool yeah right but you looking at goddamn be over here wasting time with me you yeah you looking at scam them you know what saying who ain't boy a going ain't going ain't going a lot of [ __ ] ain't going they already know you all the man this this [ __ ] so [ __ ] up cuz most of Mo like most of the time the [ __ ] that's good good the dudes that's good dude women look at them as weird y cornball mhm so like so this nigga's a real man gentle he's a man he's a man you w look God bwood breath B you smokeing bwood cut out you want to hear you hear girl how you don't want to hear that that sound cuz cuz you addicted to the [ __ ] yeah for real and that you ain't never seen that you know your mama going to be like what she doing like y y y y your people goingon to disapprove of that that [ __ ] [ __ ] up bro where you get him from yeah H Square boy H Square Bo sh but lame here but he the one for you and and you right BR be some good ass men and it's funny cuz a lot of folk think and I I had to explain that to cuz you know whenever I do what's name podcast them folk think that [ __ ] real so it be like I be getting hate mail and I just be like damn like this sh a joke yeah you be doing like the yeah that [ __ ] hard though finess finess yeah so it be a joke but I be saying some real [ __ ] so it catch like and that's all this [ __ ] really is just getting emotional response from people you see what I'm saying and boy them folk be going crazy on this [ __ ] like and I'm just saying like man for the most part it's a lot of good [ __ ] out there it just they don't want them [ __ ] they don't like and crazy because they don't even see them [ __ ] like if you if you try to explain like a good [ __ ] they don't even them [ __ ] invisible they only talk about the [ __ ] that they like which is a small percent you see what I'm saying like every [ __ ] ain't like that but the [ __ ] that you probably going to want he like that you see what I'm saying okay I say this right I say this right a woman want a [ __ ] well not all women women want to pull up with a [ __ ] that other [ __ ] respect and and all the [ __ ] that's what it is bro and all the [ __ ] want yeah that's what I'm saying they want to pull yeah pull up with a niggga that ever that the [ __ ] respect and the [ __ ] want that's other than that man not a [ __ ] that's like okay that that that want them [ __ ] who the [ __ ] who like cuz she want to feel a slight sense of of that yeah yeah that you might can yeah like cuz if I feel like I'm the only one want you then no no thrill this ain't man no thrill I feel like they want a [ __ ] they want a niggga to get all the hoes but then they want to get the [ __ ] and make the niggaer not get no more ho damn like I want you to be able to get all the hoes but I don't want I be able to stop you from getting all the hoes to say that I was the one yeah when have you seen that done before that why I keep trying to add the the lates like you seen you you seen your whoever your cousin get cheated on your sister everybody in the circle every no not get cheated on your brother is a cheater your uncle your daddy your cousin your nephew you done help him he ain't here girl he was here all night you done help people cheat what makes you think you f to get the [ __ ] that don't if he D type of [ __ ] I'm not saying all men cheat I'm saying like certain type of [ __ ] is just outside and them [ __ ] it too many I ain't going lie bro I say I think all men do cheat I think you only as faithful as your options I feel like nigg if a [ __ ] ain't capable of cheat then he ain't and most [ __ ] is broke and working for that 30 hours of God damn 24 hours a day they can't cheat [ __ ] depend what your focus is man I'm like I know [ __ ] is [ __ ] in the factory that what I'm saying work them nigg who got there got time to to talk talk they work B out that [ __ ] the [ __ ] nigg super cheating them R [ __ ] they s right there on the they they did a study and show like the the Lesser [ __ ] make the more likely he is to be faithful versus the more money a [ __ ] make the more he you know that though come on but that's what I'm saying so I'm saying like any like what I say to women is like what [ __ ] don't want to be a king like if if if you walk up to a man on the street like but some that [ __ ] don't make some [ __ ] King though other [ __ ] make some I know but I'm just saying like I the reason why I use the term King is because like okay [ __ ] what king had one Queen and no conine just for real like what king just had one wife one and he just was n that [ __ ] [ __ ] everything boy it was a [ __ ] in China boy this [ __ ] if you want to work next to the emperor you had to chop your dick off cuz he had so many hoes you had to chop your dick off to work in the castle in the padet cuz he ain't want you to godamn cuz you know she I know you ain't [ __ ] exactly but he a [ __ ] na here he going to [ __ ] nothing in here cuz guess why [ __ ] I cuz my my my son going to be a Heir so you can't like it ain't no practic test and all DNA test and [ __ ] so you leave your dick at the door come work in the [ __ ] so just think like all I'm saying is like you walk up to any average man and be like hey you you want to be king king of Atlanta for the day what [ __ ] going be like nah like hell yeah I want to cuz Men We value that [ __ ] we value power and Prestige and status and [ __ ] like that ambition you see I'm saying so you saying you saying basically like Ain a [ __ ] if a [ __ ] in a [ __ ] in the right situation to go yeah yeah give a [ __ ] 100 Mil boy what that [ __ ] dick GNA fall off F 100 million and everybody know it everybody know you got 100 milon women know you got 100 million my debate my only debate you got it might and it might be a lot more rare that just mean don't no loyalty exists nowhere for nobody but that philosophy I'm just saying with that philosophy then n but but but but but I got I got I gotta disagree on that because loyalty ain't to me loyalty ain't defined by sex yeah what you talking about to say I'm say he said he just saying get some [ __ ] I ain't saying like leave my wife [ __ ] oh you saying like that I'm saying you some [ __ ] I'm going to play I'm to I'm not I'm not no advocate for Cheetos or none of that but I'm saying is I get what he's saying yeah for real am I Tripp it what I'm saying he's saying like you never know what position you get in and where you start to see yourself at when you start when other people start to see you different but I can't I get what you saying no I I hear what he saying I'm just saying that you that's really it for real so okay so let me let me rephrase then so money will change you but do y'all think loyalty do you think a person if a person cheat on you they're disloyal to you if if y'all if y ain't got the agreement don't cheat H if the agreement if if if if if if if if you cheated on your dude right do you feel like you disloyal to him keep it real yeah I do it depends on how you unless unless unless unless she has an understanding with him that you can cheat n it ain't no understanding with that type of [ __ ] like if I'm with you no it's an understand some people have open relationship with you or whatever then like I'm with you if we've agreed to be together or if we've agreed to do this [ __ ] or however the [ __ ] whatever like say for instance um what if you done did everything else to do everything you took care you got them you there for them they sick they locked up anything you there right but you [ __ ] are you disloyal or unfaith both both unless some some one says you I I know that you're cheating and I don't give look the word see I look that up that's a good I'm telling you look up the word loyalty Loy look at the word loyalty and look up unfaith I think we did this one time on on another podcast on on big facts but are you disloyal or Unfaithful both Unfaithful both that's cold right now right Elite cuz a [ __ ] can do some disloyal [ __ ] to you and be faithful to you disloyal means failing to be loyal to a person or body to which one has obligations but loyalty Unfaithful but loyalty the word faithfulness is in loyalty what's what's lloy faithfulness in a steadfast face of Temptation renounced desert or betray see I'm getting a whole different what's name I don't know strong feeling of support or Alliance thank you that's what that that's Unfaithful is which one you looked up I think this sh Oxford yeah this Oxford I'm saying what's the name loyer you look up loyalty all right loyalty is what a strong feeling of support or Alliance so if you ain't broke the support of Alli or Alliance the alliance could be no the alliance could it's black the alliance the alliance could be that we ain't going to cheat I'm saying we go down that rabbit hole huh we can go down that rabbit holead but if someone does something the respect to make you feel betrayed then it violates loyalty and faithfulness what okay Faith that's all I'm saying of being fa yeah that's like say that's like saying just on some homeboy [ __ ] all right this homeboy always did everything right but then snitch who he told him you see what I'm saying though but but see it's different because like faithfulness is almost like crazy you know that way that's that's the new [ __ ] out here now like [ __ ] ain't told on me who he told on [ __ ] like that's the new [ __ ] that [ __ ] crazy and what's [ __ ] is disgusting I'm so glad I'm so glad I'm a comedian y boy I ain't even got to worry about this [ __ ] I don't even give a [ __ ] about this [ __ ] like boy I'm so glad I ain't even like even cuz it's like man this [ __ ] different bro like I this [ __ ] just way different I never thought that I see today that this [ __ ] would be like you know what I mean [ __ ] R and just keep rapping and keep you know what I mean this [ __ ] crazy for real 2024 so that's why I'm so we I listen man and I always take the [ __ ] to weird space because my mind just be weird sometimes y'all my mind be weird sometime but you see how we create AI right it's Dam nck can can grow to be a life for because AI going to be AI like robots going to be able to make other robots right M it's like a birth go hold up hold up being H me out all right so that's that's basically not humans I guess we're humans not that's basically another form of humanity right if they if they just go to building [ __ ] they we got our own fact we building [ __ ] and they multiply multiply multiply right who's to say that another planet didn't make us and the same [ __ ] hold on hold on hold on let me let me get this off the same little little plug ups and [ __ ] we putting in them they just electric they could have found some [ __ ] like brains organs and all that it's the same [ __ ] cuz it's from a different planet right it's still got damn [ __ ] this uh this at the top [ __ ] this the hard drive no real [ __ ] though am I tripping we got a hard drive computer we got we got a whole our bodies are basically computers right yeah they work like them similar cars if you think about a car car got engine who [ __ ] huh who controls all that what you mean who controls it we probably ran nor Atlanta philosophy that [ __ ] making s though J yeah it ain't but it listen bro we so if AI run off right now who's to say Humanity didn't run off so how they ain't find us if they was in control of us I'm saying we we can we can find a them [ __ ] bucking with sticks and [ __ ] they they them folk gret them folk they [ __ ] they they what they is now I ever heard little Fishbowl Theory what's that basically like the aliens tray the humanity and they just watch us I believe need that bro fish bowl the like like like you know how you just go and look at the fish tank the fish don't know you outside that [ __ ] they don't know what's going on outside the [ __ ] so it's a theory where they say like aliens created us and they just monitor us they just watch yeah I believe they just be watching us and [ __ ] I feel like it's too many of us for that [ __ ] to be going on what bro listen but but but how many shit's on the game you play the game right now you play a whole universe a whole world this [ __ ] is a real world in the yeah that a making [ __ ] you put [ __ ] on your you D near in that [ __ ] I just did a virtual reality [ __ ] over by um by um how me and Shante and dating went that [ __ ] that [ __ ] is real when you put them [ __ ] on your body you DN there you in there yeah the metaverse all that [ __ ] I don't know I think I think is we even woke now go rabbit B even W like [ __ ] you dreams and [ __ ] feel so real now come back so many times for me every day like I think I'm glitched up but you right but listen I had a dream and woke up and had to realize I had kids and [ __ ] I had a dream that I felt like [ __ ] I had a dream that I felt like I was there for like three months like I was living a whole life and all kind of [ __ ] Apartments trapping and all kind of [ __ ] and I woke up [ __ ] I had to be like where the [ __ ] I'm at I thought this [ __ ] was fake I thought what I was at was fake and the dream was real not real [ __ ] yeah that when they say you tapping in you can't determine well you know black folk about to get piles and [ __ ] super piles and [ __ ] huh Black Folk about to get super piles and [ __ ] y'all a see that what's yeah boy they saying Black Folk DNA DNA about to unlock and all kind of [ __ ] about to happen boy I just want to be a to fly and [ __ ] super speed I do think the Matrix I do think the Matrix [ __ ] was real though I do think we plug in and plug out when we go to sleep and wake up can't tell me bro I know I know I be glitching bro I ain't the only [ __ ] glitching y'all [ __ ] just don't be keeping it real [ __ ] just be trying to act like it don't exist I see everything you know what I'm saying you cuz with that fish sandwich yeah man what we doing scream about right it's all good man we appreciate you pulling up the big facts you know what I'm saying let everybody know where they can tap in with you and what you got coming up man look man y'all can tap in with me on YouTube Facebook Instagram Tik Tok everything all the same JQ health is cerski GQ Health J us s t q e H3 FF man the kid that did man you know what I mean if you think only those who think like that think like that man so yeah there it is check us out. bfa.com subscribe like comment share all that on the bigf network salute salute	but they sound good exactly that [ __ ] sound good [ __ ] make [ __ ] sound good you go get some money yeah how it go what's the inspiration for your skits uh cuz a lot of it seem like day-to-day just man really just like life and um me like because and I say that because [ __ ] I'm damn near like a psych patient like you know I mean my mama was a paranoid schizophrenic so I come from like my mind be racing so this [ __ ] like therapy for me I just get to get out [ __ ] that's just in my mind all day which is some stupid [ __ ] that I just be thinking about so now I get to relay that on on on camera so let me answer this so just going back to what you said about your mom how was it growing up in a household with somebody that was battling mental illness like that uh definitely a struggle definitely definitely a struggle like uh I want to say my mom probably was your dad there yeah yeah actually my dad raised me like um okay RP my dad um he actually like like when they split my dad took me so I ra with my dad you know what I mean like okay and and he was a old man like my dad was born 1929 he was in World War II	2	6	4	but they sound good exactly that sound good make sound good you go get some money yeah how it go what's the inspiration for your skits uh cuz a lot of it seem like day-to-day just man really just like life and um me like because and I say that because I'm damn near like a psych patient like you know I mean my mama was a paranoid schizophrenic so I come from like my mind be racing so this like therapy for me I just get to get out that's just in my mind all day which is some stupid that I just be thinking about so now I get to relay that on on on camera	so just going back to what you said about your mom how was it growing up in a household with somebody that was battling mental illness like that	4,6,8	0,2,-2	4	6	8	0	2	-2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-Xsjx4VTfU	4,038	q-Xsjx4VTfU	2024-06-27 00:00:00	[Music] this is big fact Network [Music] exclusive live from the culture lab it's time for big facts big bank is here baby Jade is here DJ Scream is here we're welcoming today a comedian that's very funny you see him online give it up for scam lightly on big facts what's up what's up what's up bro you good man yeah man I have made it man so what you say you scam your way on the big F tell tell us how you got on big F I want to hear the whole story yeah so look man I got damn I had hit bank account but goddamn Bank was so cool about we worked some [ __ ] out and then goam you know I mean I owe them so so this a transaction yeah this transaction I just [ __ ] with you no man for real like shout out my manager uh y sh man brother and you know I mean we been had linked up like I came and did skit on y'all um on the podcast what that was like about a year ago yeah so U man just kept working kept grinding and boom back here so is your Origins comedy or what was you doing before that no I was in some whole other [ __ ] some whole other [ __ ] you can talk about or you can't talk about I can't allegedly I say allegedly but now for real I was like uh I was um in the streets just like I ain't G to say everybody else but pretty much you know I demographic I came from the same [ __ ] PIV it and I was always doing I was always like stupid my whole life I can say that I was slow I was slow so I been I've been should have step in comedy but I kind of running from it you know what I mean cuz I Ain I ain't I was I wasn't in no position to be laughed at at the time so when I finally took it serious sat down two months that [ __ ] was out of here at what point did you know you was funny man since I was little I ain't gonna lie like I said I always been a CL clown I always been a [ __ ] roast and always I I I had to fight [ __ ] I roast so good you know what I mean so I always had that aspect to me so I just when I really took it serious like man I'm going to do this comedy [ __ ] like full-fledged nothing else I'm sit down and do it like I said that sh was out of here but I I will say like I I do feel like it chose me instead of me choosing it you know I mean do you think it's important to be able to do like other other types of comedies like AC in the movie Stand Up and all that type of stuff too or or or or is it if you're a one lane type of comedian is that cool in your opinion I I mean I feel like whatever you comfortable with see what I'm saying because a lot of people ain't comfortable with that stage you know I mean I didn't did all of it so like I don't know like for me I didn't get all of it you know I mean but for everybody I like stand up ain't for everybody you know I mean that [ __ ] a whole different monster you know I me why you say that because it's like like it's [ __ ] that you got to know like you got to know time you know I mean you got to know punch lines you got to know how to build a joke up you know you got to sit traps type [ __ ] I mean so it's like an art front for like it's actually some people that probably ain't even funny in real life but they comedians you see what I'm saying cuz they just know the art of telling jokes ver being just naturally funny like you might be naturally funny and get on stage and can't you that's true just how some of these rap [ __ ] be lying boom same way but they sound good exactly that [ __ ] sound good [ __ ] make [ __ ] sound good you go get some money yeah how it go what's the inspiration for your skits uh cuz a lot of it seem like day-to-day just man really just like life and um me like because and I say that because [ __ ] I'm damn near like a psych patient like you know I mean my mama was a paranoid schizophrenic so I come from like my mind be racing so this [ __ ] like therapy for me I just get to get out [ __ ] that's just in my mind all day which is some stupid [ __ ] that I just be thinking about so now I get to relay that on on on camera so let me answer this so just going back to what you said about your mom how was it growing up in a household with somebody that was battling mental illness like that uh definitely a struggle definitely definitely a struggle like uh I want to say my mom probably was your dad there yeah yeah actually my dad raised me like um okay RP my dad um he actually like like when they split my dad took me so I ra with my dad you know what I mean like okay and and he was a old man like my dad was born 1929 he was in World War II real [ __ ] on God everything my dad born in 1929 [ __ ] in World War II so I so so I be having more on God how how old was your daddy when he had you he had me he was like 50 something okay that that add up yeah yeah yeah okay yeah I'm talking about dead that [ __ ] was in World War II so so he put certain mors and [ __ ] in a [ __ ] that I know people ain't even got no more you know what I mean so that's why people be thinking I sound how I do because you know what I mean like I was raised with a Elder you know I mean that [ __ ] was a real Elder you see what I'm saying so with him he was like the um coherent parent of the group you see what I'm saying my mama was wild Young illness type [ __ ] so my daddy was like the one that took us and raised us you see what I'm saying but growing up in the house with that [ __ ] yeah that [ __ ] was a struggle I think that's why I get my comedic comedic side front cuz my mama she Ain have no fut she'll say anything to anybody at any time and like people didn't know she was you know I mean she was like she had the illness or whatever and they thought that she was trying to be funny or like but it was funny though it was funny though I can't C like my MMA was funny as hell though like rip she was funny as hell she Ain what she'll say anything out M like a like a child worse like a adult that know better but still say some [ __ ] like like for real like your homeboy might come over there she might just look at your homeboy and say some [ __ ] like I bet your dick little out of nowhere real [ __ ] where you from originally originally I was born in tusi Alabama I was born in my grandma house 46 yeah I went to school down there oh you did yeah they told you with the locals oh I'm cool with a couple of them shouts the street of Frank Walkin some of them so was your daddy a part of the experiment that they did down there no uh no my dad U he was from Chicago so he had came later but yeah Tusk experiments like a lot of my family members and [ __ ] was affected by that like d yeah did they ever give them reparations for that I think they just now I think they just yeah yeah they did yeah they did yeah they they got reparation for it but it was only like a small group of them left by time they did get to him what you think about this [ __ ] cat you watch that cat we [ __ ] yeah hell what you think about that I think it's a lot of truth to it like I don't know I don't know them folk person I don't want to say too much cuz godamn I ain't trying to get black ball before I get I just talking [ __ ] but now I I I definitely I see that [ __ ] here like you know I mean it's like a you know kind of like a little pecking order gatekeeping type [ __ ] like people gatekeep in all rounds no matter how big small so I think every city got that [ __ ] and then you get to the industry they got their own Gatekeepers so or you feel like they be trying to hold [ __ ] out you think you think that's possible yeah well I ain't going to say it I I think if you weak if you weak it'll stop you like [ __ ] like you know what I mean if you don't say [ __ ] I'm make it anyway know I mean it can scare you off and you just like I seen some with um the Wayne brother he was like somebody said something to him and he start doing stand up for like 10 years so that [ __ ] can really you know what I mean shake you in the wrong way you the whole body if you let it you know I mean but I feel like if you're a [ __ ] that come from nothing I truly feel like what's for you is for you though that's true I don't know it might be harder for you I don't feel like no n can keep you out yeah it might keep you out of they Circle yeah that's what said they situation yeah but this [ __ ] too big man you can make a way man I be [ __ ] excuses I feel but I I I feel the way you feel but I also feel like if the right [ __ ] sprays your name then it's going to be I don't want to say next to Impossible but it can be super [ __ ] overly extremely difficult in mostu but it's it's it still B down to B down to how hard you go look at the [ __ ] that they do spray the [ __ ] going hard about this [ __ ] man yeah but [ __ ] look how I look that's true look look at the [ __ ] who it's a it's a it's a lot of casual to that [ __ ] what I'm saying it's a lot of casualty to that [ __ ] because I feel like you laid down at the end of the day that's true that what I said what I said like if you weak you going to fold you going to fold in on yourself that [ __ ] really be mental like if somebody get in your head and you don't get that [ __ ] out Bo like [ __ ] what's the [ __ ] name B Simon that [ __ ] went what number one FK got in that [ __ ] head he Ain like performing to his best n they ain't getting they ain't getting his head he want it he W it he W it yeah sometimes CU I I don't really know a lot about that [ __ ] I just know R talked about him in the song he said like Ben Timmons I ain't going nowhere or something yeah he had a hell of a agent he had a hell of a agent they giving him money based on what they thought he might be able to do what I'm saying he ain't never do it though but the [ __ ] it paid him based off of his potential exactly but he got man he got gunshot BR the man wouldn't even shoot the basketball man that's in your head he wouldn't even take a shot n he ain't shoo bro cuz he wasn't going to make it man he didn't shoot it he could he could he didn't even drive I'm just saying if okay let's take Ben Simmons maybe I'm being in a homer and let's take Ant-Man all right Antman shoot that's what I was saying last night what I said what I said if you weak I'm saying like he mentally KN up it's you right I see what you say you say take the shot forget that like an is from the west side that dog I know to do matter [ __ ] lay down everywhere it's a [ __ ] laying down on every side of town same how you name one [ __ ] that stood up I bet we can a fire [ __ ] that done laid down laid down [ __ ] [ __ ] up Z they ain't do nothing to Zion he did it to himself I mean who Z the big dude who be smashing the porn or whatever Zion Williamson the boy can jump though like boy can jump yeah you getting paid to jump jumping don't win championships and games but it's early too though early super early he got he got a minute man he still got he got time to like when did he get signed once you he been in the league six years that ain't ear I been in about six years yeah I'm thinking like three n he been playing hurt two of them oh yeah that's what it is that's that's what it is that's is my opinion when when it comes to like the athlete [ __ ] some people just ain't got it but that's what I'm saying like people I think a lot of people put emphasis on it like that [ __ ] just everywhere that [ __ ] ain't that [ __ ] real rare but if but if you're not it and then on top of that you don't have self-esteem then like you're going you're going to flop every time you going to f in on yourself like you going to be your worst enemy you going to godamn you're going to implode facts hey what what a character scam come from man this [ __ ] so crazy so the the interview that future did with Kevin Sam I watched that interview I like well that [ __ ] don't give a [ __ ] about [ __ ] just just his demeanor how he was just like yeah I me a [ __ ] by like I like but this [ __ ] just so nonchalant so I was like damn what if the scammer was like that like [ __ ] just pull all kind of moves don't give a [ __ ] about the consequences so and it's crazy I watched I I the interview was on TV and I just like hey I want to shoot a skit by the Atlanta scammer and then in like 10 minutes I just he like he need a name I was like [ __ ] scam like Le oh like scam likely I'm like no not likely but like Le like l e e so I just ran with that [ __ ] and that [ __ ] just stuck so hard that people like people don't even call me by my name they just call me scam introdu you fact so I like [ __ ] scam so I just ran with it man and that [ __ ] just naturally like took off because I feel like you know that's what we living in anyway what you think about SC game I mean [ __ ] is though you go with your move like you had if it made sense yeah yeah [ __ ] me too if it made sense like I feel like I did everything it is to do in the streets like everything like a [ __ ] that played all positions in that [ __ ] I had been a fake ass little pimp before godamn s everything it is I did everything so [ __ ] why not riding around that man we was making no money man but that [ __ ] him [ __ ] the hard [ __ ] listen [ __ ] listen sh but then the crazy thing is just talking to them folk like when you talk like real PE and [ __ ] they be like you got to coach the [ __ ] talk I ain't got the patience to keep talking to no [ __ ] about some [ __ ] just keep on telling you some [ __ ] that you should know [ __ ] that I go get me some drugs or something baby this [ __ ] slow oh when with that turning point though huh like the Turn Point like man I'm just feel cuz you always legit now right yo for sure why he looking around I won't be on big face for real no I am though we in the turtle what it was though like you know [ __ ] I ain't going to lie but you know the pandemic had [ __ ] boom [ __ ] was eating good like you know I mean so I had enough money to where I was like damn I can kind of ease up off this you know I mean this [ __ ] cuz at first like I said I I never wanted to do comedy because of that like I mean I was dealing with [ __ ] in the street I ain't really want no [ __ ] to feel like I was no funny [ __ ] you know what I mean when you dealing with certain amount of money so once I once I felt like I made enough money then I was like [ __ ] I can kind of start doing comedy like you know doing my skits and [ __ ] so like I said I had sat down like um my turning my main turning point though was and this is trueu I had went to Miami for new years and [ __ ] so I had on took a I thought was edible so I ate a edible but I don't know what for issue was like it it had to be like strs or something yeah cuz boy I had the worst trip of my life [ __ ] like I'm I'm I'm zooed you know you you know when you get too high you think you about to die and [ __ ] that's what I was on I'm like well I'm I'm G I'm out of here so so I walk to the gas station to get some milk drunk drunk drunk a gallon of milk that man that [ __ ] only wors when you swallow dope no no that milk workk any natural high and that milk work that sh why the [ __ ] y'all ain't G me milk that day I was TR to die want to see it you milk what you talking about let no El kill you bro you just tripping but that how that [ __ ] had me that [ __ ] do that [ __ ] take you to a psychedelic listen boy that [ __ ] had listen I swear to God on everything I got back to the room after drinking the milk [ __ ] I lay on the bed I'm like I'm going to die I just Clos my eyes I'm in the universe I'm just in the universe like but I can see my body on the bed with my ey closed I owe my eyes I'm back in the room close my eyes I'm in the universe so I start seeing myself on stage with a microphone like that was astro Projection what when you had that where you supposed to be at though that's what I was saying like but I think what it is though I think it's it's like a unified Feld and you see all the possibilities that you can be right so that was me in the future looking back at me like see what I'm saying even with Dreams yeah exactly like [ __ ] was telling me come on like do what we on so I'm like man I'm going to do this [ __ ] then I got back to Atlanta boy my cousin was standing with him but [ __ ] tow tow a hole in my head thing gone you yeah why part me empty [ __ ] gone all [ __ ] gone you know I mean see make sense yeah I see see yeah we CH we chopped up and [ __ ] y chopped it up yeah I mean you was just like no regular chop up like you know I mean but you know I mean like like what what the excuse was why he broke in your [ __ ] no I say he was standing [ __ ] that [ __ ] a break in that [ __ ] lit there I'm saying where the excuse was taking out with the [ __ ] uh I don't even remember so about like he probably felt like I owed him or some [ __ ] yeah but it probably wasn't that you know what I mean but like he was staying with you and you owed him it be like that sometime the [ __ ] kind of [ __ ] but but you just know like you know I mean like [ __ ] was just getting out the fed you know [ __ ] PTSD like you know what I mean home to steep so you know what I mean home you doing stand up yeah yeah I didn't I didn't did stand up I did step away from it though cuz like I said it's it's so much politics and that [ __ ] and that [ __ ] ain't paying nothing they think it ain't paying nothing I got a little something for you want do [ __ ] show yeah we September I when is it April May damn that's May May 4th Saturday May 4 okay you know I got I gota get back on stage that [ __ ] A that [ __ ] ain't just like no just you know I mean that [ __ ] real real you got to get back up St you just got to get in your bag right yeah yeah but but it's like like I said like it's about time so like that's why you do it every night so you can got damn sharpen your your skills no we had um we had my man on here man don't you you got to get you gotta got damn we just had Henry up here right oh yeah yeah Henry my boy yeah Henry said the same [ __ ] like you got to exercise [ __ ] going and 100 50 people rooms 25 people in the room you still gota go work your material even if you comeing in [ __ ] working on us yeah for real people you got to work that material bro if a n GNA do this [ __ ] n gota do it all the way no but see that's what I was saying like so I noticed like if you try to do that and the content one of them going to suffer see what I'm saying so why you say that because like the amount of time that you got to take like like [ __ ] what's her name did it country Wayne did it but he he I'm saying like them [ __ ] beat but but what I'm saying like once they did one of them surer I ain't going to say like the quality of the content serer but the amount that you putting out going to go down you got to balance it at that point you got to balance it yeah I know it but I'm saying like far as like especially like now because [ __ ] gate you see what I'm saying so it's still like I ain't like [ __ ] don't like internet comedians for real that I to say really respect yeah exactly like you get chance pause edit you get a chance do all that [ __ ] want that [ __ ] on the spot but but it's the thing though it's like she like they it's kind of like the old mindset like how [ __ ] was Pass Out CD ain't no more CD so [ __ ] don't know how to transition you see what I'm saying so it's kind of like that like they be want you to just only do stand up rooms and [ __ ] but it's like I got the internet why would I go touch a whole another see what I'm saying like you can reach way more still though them [ __ ] but [ __ ] Ain't Going [ __ ] [ __ ] don't really internet comedian oh but iig who like being the trench you know what I'm saying the people do like I love it yeah but I'm saying like comedians who gotdamn know where they got it from gotam getting them $20 nights godamn [ __ ] [ __ ] that got a drink you know saying [ __ ] get a [ __ ] [ __ ] like them nigg feel like they got it out the mud but that's still like a yeah [ __ ] up um perspective but I get it you know what I'm saying for what they feel like what they put in every comedian should put in but [ __ ] something it's the luck of the [ __ ] gu what I got this [ __ ] out the mud too I got this [ __ ] with a phone and a goddamn ring light a cheat one at that godamn exactly you know I mean cord breaking off that [ __ ] I had to wire that b back together put some tape around it so it's the same [ __ ] it's just like I said it's people perspective like you know what I mean and me honestly I ain't going to give a [ __ ] what another [ __ ] think about me like [ __ ] I ain't in it to be you know I mean I mean do you feel do you feel sometime like man yeah I need I need to goam go and get in that I need to go on and Mer that part so then let them know I can do it do you ever ever get but I did I ain't going to lie I did you see what I'm saying like I performed at a you know what I mean like a at a high stage what you know I mean [ __ ] some big dogs from the city like boy you got it know I mean it just like I said that [ __ ] wasn't making no sense for me and it's taking away from some [ __ ] that do make money so what I'm saying like I'm making money on Instagram and Facebook and [ __ ] like that so I'm making way more money than I would be trying to do taking a risk anything $200 [ __ ] you got to get into it with anything n that [ __ ] your security none of that [ __ ] yeah that [ __ ] A you been spank the [ __ ] on camera for what hell cuz the nigg [ __ ] G they move yeah cuz I ain't going to think I'm black out a whole another side be like oh n that [ __ ] don't even want that turn the big to workout what it name big Q got turn the big Q onig ass yeah I don't even want to play n but you get what I'm saying though yeah that [ __ ] that that don't make sense to be cuz I went gotam I would just say if I I want to be a rapper right there I would do my [ __ ] online I wouldn't be at no open mics that [ __ ] dangerous yeah what I'm saying like [ __ ] like like you not going to gain no fans from that [ __ ] like I had a homeboy yes you are no you yes you are fans from what okay from from like open m stand up talk open mik rapping or you talking about stand up comedian stand up comedian I'm saying you make no money off no you might not make no money off of it but you like people will put your name with your face and it'll like help increase your family I agree that but well you got to get on the internet the internet no the internet is definitely over it but I'm saying touching the people is is going to make a difference also but most of the people outside [ __ ] but then what I say though like other crew y'all rapping my bad J y'all rapping other crew other open mic and you f then we got to get into it cuz you f yeah how this [ __ ] go comedian comedian okay we on the same show together [ __ ] mad at me cuz I just was funny as hell y that'll get you [ __ ] up real talk like cuz then they ain't going to want to put you on their show you see what I'm saying because every like I feel like most comedians everybody want to feel like the funnyest [ __ ] in the room just like okay a artist right let's say if two artists in the room and one get to playing his music the other [ __ ] going to get be ready for him to cut him music off so he can play his [ __ ] like come on man r that [ __ ] up so I can play my [ __ ] my [ __ ] F like your [ __ ] cool but my [ __ ] so it's the same thing you know mean it's the same [ __ ] and doing open mics [ __ ] steal your jokes I had a [ __ ] steal my whole [ __ ] and do the [ __ ] the next day because I was like I ain't know you see what I'm saying so they we was talking about that yeah so they'll tell you like don't do open mics and comedy cuz writers and [ __ ] be in the crowd to Ste [ __ ] jokes remix so it's a conspiracy yeah GNA remix your [ __ ] yeah like he ain't going nowh with that he funny I see what he Tred to do I'm show how to do it like your delivery or something might be off what I'm saying you how to do you a real funny ass [ __ ] get your [ __ ] too fast I know how to do it I know how to perform the joke better than and then boom got some of they [ __ ] with your [ __ ] that [ __ ] is that [ __ ] out of here TV so it just this [ __ ] just like I said sh just like a rap game you had to skit one time about like dating in Atlanta and [ __ ] what's your like what's your take on dating in Atlanta man have fun God damn don't take nothing serious like this [ __ ] ain't serious out here for real what you mean I feel like this [ __ ] a big ass high school for real I mean like Atlanta man I I would me personally I wouldn't like for love and no [ __ ] out here like for real like I feel like if you ain't already got it like new generation New Age day this [ __ ] over with like if you ain't already got love and marriage and wife and all that [ __ ] over with in Atlanta as of today it's a rap what you saying in a certain age group or just period or just period because everybody mind mind frames have change you see what I'm saying everybody mind is right now she it's okay to hurt whoever is long as is you happy like everybody feel like everything Justified as long as I'm looking out for me and I'm happy then she it's whatever it's cold real you saying no no consideration for nobody nobody if you look at everything everybody talking about online and all the toxicity [ __ ] everybody really just out for self and it's okay like like everybody promoe it's okay to be for yourself like no team ball no nothing I ain't going to lie I I help a lot of people though but I I I I've been on that lately like [ __ ] that I got to figure me out cuz that's the way the world live bro yeah but that's what I'm saying saying that the way the world live like whoever with me like this [ __ ] we doing yeah yeah this me figuring me out I can't worry about goddamn going play goddamn tennis yeah you know what I'm saying cuz my my buddy want to play tennis all day ain't no money in tennis bro for me I need to be right here doing this [ __ ] so I got to do what serve me I don't I don't knock that so that's why that's why I'm saying like the D SC sh like that like [ __ ] ain't nobody really going to stick it out with no [ __ ] till it's too late you see what I'm saying like that's how I feel anyway from my experience and your ass ain't lit ain't got nothing for you so you saying like the ho going anyway going gone they gone get the elevator with that SM that B that b he don't know what you say oh yeah really that that Clyde Christian but you know what I mean CDE be G out of here what's that come on what floor you stay on oh seven whole time [ __ ] paying for the [ __ ] all kind of [ __ ] tricky you don't think it's a circle though I think you don't think it's the circle like it's like that circle of people he right see see see you you speaking from where you at he's saying like outside the circle is different though but I but but this the thing I say with men it might be you see what I'm saying like for the for the men that's outside that Circle they don't know what we talking about see what I'm saying they don't but all the women know because they all going to get brought into that Circle see what I'm saying all women been out somewhere and a [ __ ] didn't caught they ey [ __ ] with some money and they gone they gone cuz Atlanta like Atlanta like people it's a wom that it's a wom that be it's a women that be up in Chastain Park at some [ __ ] Neil Soul jazz [ __ ] that be out the way yeah you talking about a different Circle CC you talking about the hook you talking about the Hooka Circle no uh I'm talking about all walk the [ __ ] is the hookah Circle CC the hookah lounges and [ __ ] n I'm talking about all no but I mean it's it's people like it's people that go to the hookah lounges the hookah Circle or whatever they got their own money that's not giv a Fu about what another [ __ ] got but it's not that it's not also just about money see that's what like I ain't saying like what it is SC it's just that stuff on like it's just that stuff like you know certain people got that stuff right so what I'm saying is like and the reason why I say that the reason why I say that because I I watched like when I was a young [ __ ] my partner this [ __ ] had everything this [ __ ] uh drop head godamn benty truck all this [ __ ] I done watch every type of woman from every type of Walk of Life come in the [ __ ] spot and he tell them folks straight up the [ __ ] make Ann hey look you ain't going to suck like at the end of night you can get up and get the [ __ ] out and I Ain never see not one woman get up and leave like got me [ __ ] up and I seen the [ __ ] with doctors lawyers them them so-called Neo Soul [ __ ] I ain't never seen not one of them get up and say no [ __ ] up never by them folks oh now you put yourself in that position now what he saying is listen it's hoes everywhere yeah I'm talk about scientist nurse doctor D judges whatever hoes women going to be women some of them but what he's saying is he's saying the on they don't even allow theyel to pull up on bro that's what I'm saying cuz we talk it don't matter what walk a life it's still a select few women she can be outside and still won't pull up on you I know some [ __ ] who ain't going I know a lot of them going but some of them ain't going but see that's a lot of them that ain't going some of them ain't going I'mma keep it 100 he take that right [ __ ] but some of still but okay what what you said take cuz we all know son like damn ain't nobody like everybody compar like but you ain't nobody [ __ ] who we know [ __ ] nobody but like you said you said take that right [ __ ] right now knowing how competitive Atlanta is you don't think that [ __ ] somewh in the crowd know he in the crowd but the thing about it is she know that but it like I a listen listen I'm going to V with some of them CU I know some of them bro just because and that's then the one to elevate too yes like we like it's it's like going every circle of [ __ ] all my budy is sniper diapers yeah so we going to know who done smashed her like what about her like [ __ ] send your picture around yeah that what [ __ ] do like who this is if I DM you a girl you know what that mean who this is yeah oh that oh that you send that [ __ ] around to the [ __ ] who already who making them announcements tell them to all them [ __ ] who make them announcements they going to come back and be like I don't know her I don't know her I don't know her I don't know her she good she might be that over there in the other crowd now with what you saying go ahead but but see that's what I'm saying I'm not saying like all cuz it's impossible to say all of course of course it's a couple most yeah of course it's a couple Butterfly by The hornest Nest but [ __ ] [ __ ] I ain't going to stand by and let the [ __ ] sting me I'm getting the [ __ ] on [ __ ] them butterflies you see what I'm saying so that's all I'm saying like yeah [ __ ] can't it's hard to deci what I said on Instagram standing beside them it's hard to deci which one is which so and I like man and this thing I think think Atlanta is kind of like this [ __ ] [ __ ] you up this [ __ ] [ __ ] you up cuz it's just like the Lifey like man ain't no I ain't really seen no place like Atlanta like this [ __ ] really is the mecca of like Black Culture to me you know what I mean like I feel like [ __ ] Atlanta is like Legend like even if you just staying in Atlanta right now this [ __ ] Legend like this a legend this a legendary City so the [ __ ] that go on here it go on everywhere like that you know what I mean so it's just the the level of competition and you got you you got to be a dog to be out this [ __ ] for real yeah yeah you got to be you got to have some real dog in you for real and most and most people ain't got I ain't going to say most [ __ ] most about people that's outside but now I'm talking about even the [ __ ] working 9 to5 that don't even go nowhere and [ __ ] they can't even keep up like but you know that [ __ ] ain't but a job and and paying bill you G have to do some you GNA have to do something something he ain't gonna be able to just work come home pay bills and be straight unless your ass stay somewhere in caning or something but down here oh no we close to the city but your ass through so you think you ever lock in like on some relationship [ __ ] man I have goddamn go somewhere else not in that like how I used to be seen so much you Tain yeah there's always exception that can't I believe exceptions to the rule I don't know bro I didn't had a [ __ ] in the bed we finished and it be like you just made me commit adultery I'm like what wait what I didn't know you was married damn yeah that a know what I'm saying like a boy say that to everybody so that [ __ ] hit different like damn B that [ __ ] crazy it could be just bad in small towns though they just more sneaky and quiet going I trust that because I know Atlanta exists see what I'm saying so you ain't being brought to Atlanta and tested then you don't know see what I'm saying like she might just be like that she ain't got the opportunity see you ain't got no opportunity to be no hope everybody your daddy the preacher everybody know you in town so you Ain had no opportunity to be no hope bring her to Atlanta unleash her and then she got what she TV see see sh you see on TV right there like right there magic and [ __ ] will try you like nigg be like come here [ __ ] [ __ ] who you would never thought tell you come here tell you come here come here it going to [ __ ] you up it's going to blow your mind man I didn't seen that [ __ ] but that [ __ ] and I tell [ __ ] like man don't bring your girl up here dog don't bring your girl over here man if you if you coming from my of town you come man leave don't bring your old lady man try to move up it with her but none of that [ __ ] dead she just can't do this no more none of they can't do this no more it's too hard I think you should you think bring your girl to Atlanta you going to lock all the way in you need to know what you locking in with yeah they do it us us a woman a woman a woman will bring you around all her badass friends to see what you on yeah they do that [ __ ] to us yeah yeah yeah yeah I go yeah so expose her take her to uh you break around your don't take a center with a friends y'all go have fun n but look you take around your R po but get the poping all that sh man sh going to be in the air like this here over with what facts like they'll come back cuz a lot like I don't really know him like that anyway tell I don't really know I met him for real what we've been together two years it ain't that serious we do that take your serious like like I telling about my buddy right P who had had the bag listen man like you might be [ __ ] that really like me they might think I'm handsome but they not coming home with me but at the end of the night like if if shl say hey what's up they over with yeah I had to respect it I had like okay [ __ ] it I got to get on my grind like I ain't mad that is how the game is right now oh you got the [ __ ] you you got the [ __ ] over there with the looks his buddy got there went here he got bag put him in the pot up for you I had like I had like a oldale rain roll buty got a new bit truck baby go go with him I'm go go go with him go go [ __ ] I see you going I see you going I see you going and I ain't mad cuz I understand the game gu what I'mma have my turn and when I have my turn I don't want none of the old ho that already been [ __ ] up [ __ ] they gonna be all of them no but it's some new [ __ ] coming out the [ __ ] every day oh man it's some [ __ ] coming out the [ __ ] every day brand new don't even know what's out here yeah Michael cor Pur she Michel Michael cor Bel she cool I want to hold bottles I see they they uhuh they already know I already know they know what to buy yeah they know how person ah n i buy my cor coach i d by some Reb classes what you oh man Dam n that [ __ ] that [ __ ] real man sad reality it's Savage out here man like the wor listen man then the raapers don't [ __ ] [ __ ] man if you [ __ ] really bad man it's old we so it's really bad for real like really bad oh it's over with she might have some morals man n this [ __ ] like draing them and DM your girl just a space like put space in send it blank bubble you know what that mean this in the location [ __ ] man [ __ ] send your [ __ ] that big ass air Drake plane facts don't bring nothing they going to pick you up wherever you was standing there stand right there leave everything they going to pick you up to pick you up don't move they to pick you up in some [ __ ] take you to the helicopter helicopter to edate fly your ass to somewhere you never seen before bro you gone that would worth that whole relationship B care man this [ __ ] crazy bro was the [ __ ] true about how how the [ __ ] um how Drake had this sing out there with with her husband he sent the [ __ ] home man it was a story like it was a singer that he was like trying to I guess sign or some [ __ ] he flew her in her husband out and then like for a week or some [ __ ] and then like the last couple days sent the husband home man he [ __ ] cold I just when you about I just said my [ __ ] Joel Silver right shout out was movie producer Big Boy producer he told me a story one time I'm tell B [ __ ] it he said he said his wife when he first seen his wife she was married he told her I'mma marry you but him her and him her and her husband work for him he sent this [ __ ] on a movie for six months in a whole another state and kept the [ __ ] with him and bar I'm telling you bro well not the [ __ ] his wife but I'm just saying it's just like bro it's over with it's over with some [ __ ] what they want they can get if [ __ ] up to say that but did you see what I'm saying cuz [ __ ] put in the full work you better not be slipping a inch like a inch some you better have a slip of an inch and to see if he I'm telling you bro this [ __ ] [ __ ] up and women are cold some women I'm not I'm not um generalized I'm just saying some women are cold BR it'll be like they never knew you yeah for real [ __ ] act like she never even knew your name like you don't exist like how many times you see women do that like men can't really do that like [ __ ] with you I [ __ ] with you no matter what I'm always [ __ ] with this [ __ ] I [ __ ] with her how [ __ ] is [ __ ] be invested yeah [ __ ] be like I [ __ ] with women when they boy this [ __ ] I don't know him and be de serious like I don't know him they don't convince theirself that they don't know you oh man especially especially if it's a [ __ ] around that got some [ __ ] going on but them f w look your way boy but I feel like I feel like for a female to act like she doesn't know a [ __ ] that she wants loved it had to be something that happened but look listen I feel always going to be done happen [ __ ] going to be [ __ ] wom always got a chance to justify their action because something happened we in this [ __ ] or we in this [ __ ] but what's crazy no but what I'm saying is like Mo nine times out of 10 if if a [ __ ] is really in love with a [ __ ] like for real for real like they going to get into it they going to fall out she going to say [ __ ] him a million times but if she really loves this [ __ ] she's G to love this [ __ ] forever but if it's some [ __ ] that like some unfor a lot of women I've been hearing this [ __ ] lately a lot of women be kicking at I can learn the love a [ __ ] and they never be unlearned truly till you see some [ __ ] you really love you thought you was in love that's what most the [ __ ] most the women do they be delusional some some way like they like I heard three women say that like recently I thought I was going to learn to love him it's conveyance versus love too though I think some women men probably too whatever get convenience [ __ ] up with love yeah they they enter into the relationship with potential and they enter the relationship with uh what it could be not what it is like I can't deal with you if it ain't what it is right then like it have to be that I can't potentially feel like that and saying that I love you and knowing you trying to we trying to fall in love we trying to do hell no I can't potentially I can't fake that but if you but okay so let me ask you this then if you don't to some degree fall in love with potential then that's D how how does your how does your love get tested in order for you to be able to know whether or not you can grow with this person that's what I'm saying so it ain't it listen on one thing about it hold up scam one thing about it when a [ __ ] your person you know what it is cuzz you can't it's just something about you know when you love a person you know when you want to love a person you know when I like her a lot but you know if a [ __ ] jump out the bush with a stick you ain't F to try to tote this [ __ ] like I'mma tote my [ __ ] like man hey I'm jump in front you don't think that's that's that's the test would you die [ __ ] jump out shooter stick is you going is you going to try to c shei a [ __ ] around run but but this disconnect I had real [ __ ] though that the truth but this a disconnect though this disconnect because she's thinking like a woman that's how women like women date potential a [ __ ] going to like what he see instantly like if I like you I [ __ ] like you like if a [ __ ] say Hey you my girl we already the God damn but but if but if you like me just based off of what you see then no he saying not see you observing her not the look fact the outer when I see you I see you I don't see what you look like on the outside that's why I tell my wife hey don't ask me unbiased whatever you do going I'm going like it don't ask me if I like it don't ask me if nothing I like you so I don't give a [ __ ] what it is that [ __ ] look good you know what I'm saying so that's just what it is so I can't don't ask me on bias so we don't see potential and [ __ ] yeah we see you you yeah like if I like how you make me feel I feel that if a [ __ ] say if a [ __ ] commit like cuz I don't know like it's hard as [ __ ] for me to say I want to commit cuz if feels like I'm giving up some [ __ ] like so I feel like no no man truly wants to commit but if he find a woman that he feel like man shout shout it shout it worth of everything shout it it like then of course he's going to commit but it's not no easy [ __ ] that [ __ ] just want to do like [ __ ] Ain't just running out here to commit you see what I'm saying like [ __ ] don't want to commit H understand but a [ __ ] will if you find something that you feel like worth like I ain't going to find nothing else like sh like she one of a lifetime I ain't going to find nothing else like her so we ain't looking at her potential cuz sh you could have a a a [ __ ] pot piss in a want throw out of her [ __ ] going godamn hop down on a woman but a woman ain't just going to [ __ ] with no broke straight broke ass no car no house no n [ __ ] she's off the bat they ain't going to do that but gu what man that [ __ ] rare that [ __ ] better have a foot long a foot long goddamn she going to have something that she want he ain't going to just be it going to be something going to be something now that's what I'm saying because a lot of like well not a lot but some some some men are able to and I've seen this happen a million times before some men are able to hide or like finesse the fact that they lack some of the most essential things and then by the time by the time you understand that you've been been Boozled you know what I'm saying like it's too late you already got for you think that [ __ ] been spending the night that [ __ ] really be got there sleeping but see that but but listen one by one but see putting a pair of shoes every day but but this my thing right see women cuz people agree that like women are smarter than men right nah n I'm saying like book smart like right I'm just saying like educational wise I feel like women got more intuition than men I feel like women are more emotionally int I'mma tell you let me say this right quick before I say this I'mma tell you what men do bro and I'm go and give it up [ __ ] hate when they girl be right bro you that [ __ ] that's the only thing piss us off what pissed me off is a [ __ ] can make up something in their head and be right like how you guess that you gu right so wom got superp power now like that why I be trying to tell her like you right about a lot of that [ __ ] but some of that [ __ ] you making up so I ain't going to let you know when you're making it up I ain't going to let you know when you're right you know what I'm saying but you be right though this [ __ ] be like God but this my thing right women know what they be talking about but this my thing right what I'm saying if women are smarter than men so to speak and they believe this right you believe women smarter men I mean yeah okay so then how you get manipulated how you getting tricked then how you don't know a [ __ ] got two pair of jeans how you how you don't know yeah how you don't know that how you don't know a [ __ ] got two pair of jeans I feel like I feel like some women want to believe in the best of a [ __ ] that a [ __ ] might have another pair of jeans somewhere you know what I'm saying like but you only seeing two see I'm saying that what I'm saying like men are more L but but but the women the woman might think that the [ __ ] might not want to expose his hand right away so the two pair is what he's showing to test the water to see if it makes sense to expose the third pair see that's delusion cuz guess what you ain't never been around no rich [ __ ] that just wear two pair of jeans the [ __ ] that really got it they coming out with all this [ __ ] on especially if they like you and they trying to get you they ain't hiding nothing they putting everything on the table CU they trying to get you so a [ __ ] only let me test her with these two jeans come on you know this niggaer ain't got nothing you know it but in your mind you want to believe like I'm making get a good decision even though you know it's some [ __ ] like this [ __ ] ain't got nothing but in your mind you want to make yourself believe that he tricked me he got me he got over on me cuz you know women know man just like you said just like Bank said women got intuition you can't tell that this [ __ ] ain't got nothing yo you ain't know your baby daddy was broke before you had babies with him then you a had one with him you had another one with him yeah that [ __ ] be kind of hard like how can you say you got trick it's just hard to say you got yeah that [ __ ] when women turn into repeat offenders excuse that's excuse you know you know that's what you attract you know what I'm saying and and and and and and and no I just feel like women do make up a lot of [ __ ] in their head but how do you feel about when people say that you like what you like exactly so except that's what you like yeah and stop trying to change [ __ ] [ __ ] you don't like cuz listen bro I'm tell you bro I know like if I was to try to be anybody else but me I probably get a divorce like I'm me but I'm I mean I'm different but I'm me if that make sense what I'm saying like I'm totally different but I'm me like the mors and and [ __ ] that just boy don't do that don't say that and all that that's that's centic you get what I'm saying but I'm me so just imagine if I tried to be somebody else I don't think I would I don't think I don't think she'll go for it even though what me gets on [ __ ] nerd but I try to be something else it ain't going to work out how you a like that okay so let me ask y this then how do y'all feel about it when people say that let's just say say your significant person other person or whatever cheats on you and people say that it doesn't make sense to leave because all you g to do is hook up with another cheater because everybody I agree has their you know their I agree for women I don't know about yeah I agree for women though and I'm say I know that [ __ ] going to sound sexies or whatever they call it but I thought you about to say sexy yeah it ain't it ain't enough [ __ ] fact so you get your [ __ ] up to go find another [ __ ] who just got just got left by another female who he cheated on like it's just a Revol Circle it's just a rev it depend on what you want like cuz all men don't cheat the guys I'm just keeping it real but the guys that y'all yeah don't want be want y'all don't want them guys like I hear so many women be like he boring he didn't he didn't God sent this man fool yeah right but you looking at goddamn be over here wasting time with me you yeah you looking at scam them you know what saying who ain't boy a going ain't going ain't going a lot of [ __ ] ain't going they already know you all the man this this [ __ ] so [ __ ] up cuz most of Mo like most of the time the [ __ ] that's good good the dudes that's good dude women look at them as weird y cornball mhm so like so this nigga's a real man gentle he's a man he's a man you w look God bwood breath B you smokeing bwood cut out you want to hear you hear girl how you don't want to hear that that sound cuz cuz you addicted to the [ __ ] yeah for real and that you ain't never seen that you know your mama going to be like what she doing like y y y y your people goingon to disapprove of that that [ __ ] [ __ ] up bro where you get him from yeah H Square boy H Square Bo sh but lame here but he the one for you and and you right BR be some good ass men and it's funny cuz a lot of folk think and I I had to explain that to cuz you know whenever I do what's name podcast them folk think that [ __ ] real so it be like I be getting hate mail and I just be like damn like this sh a joke yeah you be doing like the yeah that [ __ ] hard though finess finess yeah so it be a joke but I be saying some real [ __ ] so it catch like and that's all this [ __ ] really is just getting emotional response from people you see what I'm saying and boy them folk be going crazy on this [ __ ] like and I'm just saying like man for the most part it's a lot of good [ __ ] out there it just they don't want them [ __ ] they don't like and crazy because they don't even see them [ __ ] like if you if you try to explain like a good [ __ ] they don't even them [ __ ] invisible they only talk about the [ __ ] that they like which is a small percent you see what I'm saying like every [ __ ] ain't like that but the [ __ ] that you probably going to want he like that you see what I'm saying okay I say this right I say this right a woman want a [ __ ] well not all women women want to pull up with a [ __ ] that other [ __ ] respect and and all the [ __ ] that's what it is bro and all the [ __ ] want yeah that's what I'm saying they want to pull yeah pull up with a niggga that ever that the [ __ ] respect and the [ __ ] want that's other than that man not a [ __ ] that's like okay that that that want them [ __ ] who the [ __ ] who like cuz she want to feel a slight sense of of that yeah yeah that you might can yeah like cuz if I feel like I'm the only one want you then no no thrill this ain't man no thrill I feel like they want a [ __ ] they want a niggga to get all the hoes but then they want to get the [ __ ] and make the niggaer not get no more ho damn like I want you to be able to get all the hoes but I don't want I be able to stop you from getting all the hoes to say that I was the one yeah when have you seen that done before that why I keep trying to add the the lates like you seen you you seen your whoever your cousin get cheated on your sister everybody in the circle every no not get cheated on your brother is a cheater your uncle your daddy your cousin your nephew you done help him he ain't here girl he was here all night you done help people cheat what makes you think you f to get the [ __ ] that don't if he D type of [ __ ] I'm not saying all men cheat I'm saying like certain type of [ __ ] is just outside and them [ __ ] it too many I ain't going lie bro I say I think all men do cheat I think you only as faithful as your options I feel like nigg if a [ __ ] ain't capable of cheat then he ain't and most [ __ ] is broke and working for that 30 hours of God damn 24 hours a day they can't cheat [ __ ] depend what your focus is man I'm like I know [ __ ] is [ __ ] in the factory that what I'm saying work them nigg who got there got time to to talk talk they work B out that [ __ ] the [ __ ] nigg super cheating them R [ __ ] they s right there on the they they did a study and show like the the Lesser [ __ ] make the more likely he is to be faithful versus the more money a [ __ ] make the more he you know that though come on but that's what I'm saying so I'm saying like any like what I say to women is like what [ __ ] don't want to be a king like if if if you walk up to a man on the street like but some that [ __ ] don't make some [ __ ] King though other [ __ ] make some I know but I'm just saying like I the reason why I use the term King is because like okay [ __ ] what king had one Queen and no conine just for real like what king just had one wife one and he just was n that [ __ ] [ __ ] everything boy it was a [ __ ] in China boy this [ __ ] if you want to work next to the emperor you had to chop your dick off cuz he had so many hoes you had to chop your dick off to work in the castle in the padet cuz he ain't want you to godamn cuz you know she I know you ain't [ __ ] exactly but he a [ __ ] na here he going to [ __ ] nothing in here cuz guess why [ __ ] I cuz my my my son going to be a Heir so you can't like it ain't no practic test and all DNA test and [ __ ] so you leave your dick at the door come work in the [ __ ] so just think like all I'm saying is like you walk up to any average man and be like hey you you want to be king king of Atlanta for the day what [ __ ] going be like nah like hell yeah I want to cuz Men We value that [ __ ] we value power and Prestige and status and [ __ ] like that ambition you see I'm saying so you saying you saying basically like Ain a [ __ ] if a [ __ ] in a [ __ ] in the right situation to go yeah yeah give a [ __ ] 100 Mil boy what that [ __ ] dick GNA fall off F 100 million and everybody know it everybody know you got 100 milon women know you got 100 million my debate my only debate you got it might and it might be a lot more rare that just mean don't no loyalty exists nowhere for nobody but that philosophy I'm just saying with that philosophy then n but but but but but I got I got I gotta disagree on that because loyalty ain't to me loyalty ain't defined by sex yeah what you talking about to say I'm say he said he just saying get some [ __ ] I ain't saying like leave my wife [ __ ] oh you saying like that I'm saying you some [ __ ] I'm going to play I'm to I'm not I'm not no advocate for Cheetos or none of that but I'm saying is I get what he's saying yeah for real am I Tripp it what I'm saying he's saying like you never know what position you get in and where you start to see yourself at when you start when other people start to see you different but I can't I get what you saying no I I hear what he saying I'm just saying that you that's really it for real so okay so let me let me rephrase then so money will change you but do y'all think loyalty do you think a person if a person cheat on you they're disloyal to you if if y'all if y ain't got the agreement don't cheat H if the agreement if if if if if if if if you cheated on your dude right do you feel like you disloyal to him keep it real yeah I do it depends on how you unless unless unless unless she has an understanding with him that you can cheat n it ain't no understanding with that type of [ __ ] like if I'm with you no it's an understand some people have open relationship with you or whatever then like I'm with you if we've agreed to be together or if we've agreed to do this [ __ ] or however the [ __ ] whatever like say for instance um what if you done did everything else to do everything you took care you got them you there for them they sick they locked up anything you there right but you [ __ ] are you disloyal or unfaith both both unless some some one says you I I know that you're cheating and I don't give look the word see I look that up that's a good I'm telling you look up the word loyalty Loy look at the word loyalty and look up unfaith I think we did this one time on on another podcast on on big facts but are you disloyal or Unfaithful both Unfaithful both that's cold right now right Elite cuz a [ __ ] can do some disloyal [ __ ] to you and be faithful to you disloyal means failing to be loyal to a person or body to which one has obligations but loyalty Unfaithful but loyalty the word faithfulness is in loyalty what's what's lloy faithfulness in a steadfast face of Temptation renounced desert or betray see I'm getting a whole different what's name I don't know strong feeling of support or Alliance thank you that's what that that's Unfaithful is which one you looked up I think this sh Oxford yeah this Oxford I'm saying what's the name loyer you look up loyalty all right loyalty is what a strong feeling of support or Alliance so if you ain't broke the support of Alli or Alliance the alliance could be no the alliance could it's black the alliance the alliance could be that we ain't going to cheat I'm saying we go down that rabbit hole huh we can go down that rabbit holead but if someone does something the respect to make you feel betrayed then it violates loyalty and faithfulness what okay Faith that's all I'm saying of being fa yeah that's like say that's like saying just on some homeboy [ __ ] all right this homeboy always did everything right but then snitch who he told him you see what I'm saying though but but see it's different because like faithfulness is almost like crazy you know that way that's that's the new [ __ ] out here now like [ __ ] ain't told on me who he told on [ __ ] like that's the new [ __ ] that [ __ ] crazy and what's [ __ ] is disgusting I'm so glad I'm so glad I'm a comedian y boy I ain't even got to worry about this [ __ ] I don't even give a [ __ ] about this [ __ ] like boy I'm so glad I ain't even like even cuz it's like man this [ __ ] different bro like I this [ __ ] just way different I never thought that I see today that this [ __ ] would be like you know what I mean [ __ ] R and just keep rapping and keep you know what I mean this [ __ ] crazy for real 2024 so that's why I'm so we I listen man and I always take the [ __ ] to weird space because my mind just be weird sometimes y'all my mind be weird sometime but you see how we create AI right it's Dam nck can can grow to be a life for because AI going to be AI like robots going to be able to make other robots right M it's like a birth go hold up hold up being H me out all right so that's that's basically not humans I guess we're humans not that's basically another form of humanity right if they if they just go to building [ __ ] they we got our own fact we building [ __ ] and they multiply multiply multiply right who's to say that another planet didn't make us and the same [ __ ] hold on hold on hold on let me let me get this off the same little little plug ups and [ __ ] we putting in them they just electric they could have found some [ __ ] like brains organs and all that it's the same [ __ ] cuz it's from a different planet right it's still got damn [ __ ] this uh this at the top [ __ ] this the hard drive no real [ __ ] though am I tripping we got a hard drive computer we got we got a whole our bodies are basically computers right yeah they work like them similar cars if you think about a car car got engine who [ __ ] huh who controls all that what you mean who controls it we probably ran nor Atlanta philosophy that [ __ ] making s though J yeah it ain't but it listen bro we so if AI run off right now who's to say Humanity didn't run off so how they ain't find us if they was in control of us I'm saying we we can we can find a them [ __ ] bucking with sticks and [ __ ] they they them folk gret them folk they [ __ ] they they what they is now I ever heard little Fishbowl Theory what's that basically like the aliens tray the humanity and they just watch us I believe need that bro fish bowl the like like like you know how you just go and look at the fish tank the fish don't know you outside that [ __ ] they don't know what's going on outside the [ __ ] so it's a theory where they say like aliens created us and they just monitor us they just watch yeah I believe they just be watching us and [ __ ] I feel like it's too many of us for that [ __ ] to be going on what bro listen but but but how many shit's on the game you play the game right now you play a whole universe a whole world this [ __ ] is a real world in the yeah that a making [ __ ] you put [ __ ] on your you D near in that [ __ ] I just did a virtual reality [ __ ] over by um by um how me and Shante and dating went that [ __ ] that [ __ ] is real when you put them [ __ ] on your body you DN there you in there yeah the metaverse all that [ __ ] I don't know I think I think is we even woke now go rabbit B even W like [ __ ] you dreams and [ __ ] feel so real now come back so many times for me every day like I think I'm glitched up but you right but listen I had a dream and woke up and had to realize I had kids and [ __ ] I had a dream that I felt like [ __ ] I had a dream that I felt like I was there for like three months like I was living a whole life and all kind of [ __ ] Apartments trapping and all kind of [ __ ] and I woke up [ __ ] I had to be like where the [ __ ] I'm at I thought this [ __ ] was fake I thought what I was at was fake and the dream was real not real [ __ ] yeah that when they say you tapping in you can't determine well you know black folk about to get piles and [ __ ] super piles and [ __ ] huh Black Folk about to get super piles and [ __ ] y'all a see that what's yeah boy they saying Black Folk DNA DNA about to unlock and all kind of [ __ ] about to happen boy I just want to be a to fly and [ __ ] super speed I do think the Matrix I do think the Matrix [ __ ] was real though I do think we plug in and plug out when we go to sleep and wake up can't tell me bro I know I know I be glitching bro I ain't the only [ __ ] glitching y'all [ __ ] just don't be keeping it real [ __ ] just be trying to act like it don't exist I see everything you know what I'm saying you cuz with that fish sandwich yeah man what we doing scream about right it's all good man we appreciate you pulling up the big facts you know what I'm saying let everybody know where they can tap in with you and what you got coming up man look man y'all can tap in with me on YouTube Facebook Instagram Tik Tok everything all the same JQ health is cerski GQ Health J us s t q e H3 FF man the kid that did man you know what I mean if you think only those who think like that think like that man so yeah there it is check us out. bfa.com subscribe like comment share all that on the bigf network salute salute	real [ __ ] on God everything my dad born in 1929 [ __ ] in World War II so I so so I be having more on God how how old was your daddy when he had you he had me he was like 50 something okay that that add up yeah yeah yeah okay yeah I'm talking about dead that [ __ ] was in World War II so so he put certain mors and [ __ ] in a [ __ ] that I know people ain't even got no more you know what I mean so that's why people be thinking I sound how I do because you know what I mean like I was raised with a Elder you know I mean that [ __ ] was a real Elder you see what I'm saying so with him he was like the um coherent parent of the group you see what I'm saying my mama was wild Young illness type [ __ ] so my daddy was like the one that took us and raised us you see what I'm saying but growing up in the house with that [ __ ] yeah that [ __ ] was a struggle I think that's why I get my comedic comedic side front cuz my mama she Ain have no fut she'll say anything to anybody at any time and like people didn't know she was you know I mean she was like she had the illness	2	6	4	real [ __ ] on God everything my dad born in 1929 [ __ ] in World War II so I so so I be having more on God how how old was your daddy when he had you he had me he was like 50 something okay that that add up yeah yeah yeah okay yeah I'm talking about dead that [ __ ] was in World War II so so he put certain mors and [ __ ] in a [ __ ] that I know people ain't even got no more you know what I mean so that's why people be thinking I sound how I do because you know what I mean like I was raised with a Elder you know I mean that [ __ ] was a real Elder you see what I'm saying so with him he was like the um coherent parent of the group you see what I'm saying my mama was wild Young illness type [ __ ] so my daddy was like the one that took us and raised us you see what I'm saying but growing up in the house with that [ __ ] yeah that [ __ ] was a struggle I think that's why I get my comedic comedic side front cuz my mama she Ain have no fut she'll say anything to anybody at any time and like people didn't know she was you know I mean she was like she had the illness	how old was your daddy when he had you	3,5,6	0,1,2	3	5	6	0	1	2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-Xsjx4VTfU	4,038	q-Xsjx4VTfU	2024-06-27 00:00:00	[Music] this is big fact Network [Music] exclusive live from the culture lab it's time for big facts big bank is here baby Jade is here DJ Scream is here we're welcoming today a comedian that's very funny you see him online give it up for scam lightly on big facts what's up what's up what's up bro you good man yeah man I have made it man so what you say you scam your way on the big F tell tell us how you got on big F I want to hear the whole story yeah so look man I got damn I had hit bank account but goddamn Bank was so cool about we worked some [ __ ] out and then goam you know I mean I owe them so so this a transaction yeah this transaction I just [ __ ] with you no man for real like shout out my manager uh y sh man brother and you know I mean we been had linked up like I came and did skit on y'all um on the podcast what that was like about a year ago yeah so U man just kept working kept grinding and boom back here so is your Origins comedy or what was you doing before that no I was in some whole other [ __ ] some whole other [ __ ] you can talk about or you can't talk about I can't allegedly I say allegedly but now for real I was like uh I was um in the streets just like I ain't G to say everybody else but pretty much you know I demographic I came from the same [ __ ] PIV it and I was always doing I was always like stupid my whole life I can say that I was slow I was slow so I been I've been should have step in comedy but I kind of running from it you know what I mean cuz I Ain I ain't I was I wasn't in no position to be laughed at at the time so when I finally took it serious sat down two months that [ __ ] was out of here at what point did you know you was funny man since I was little I ain't gonna lie like I said I always been a CL clown I always been a [ __ ] roast and always I I I had to fight [ __ ] I roast so good you know what I mean so I always had that aspect to me so I just when I really took it serious like man I'm going to do this comedy [ __ ] like full-fledged nothing else I'm sit down and do it like I said that sh was out of here but I I will say like I I do feel like it chose me instead of me choosing it you know I mean do you think it's important to be able to do like other other types of comedies like AC in the movie Stand Up and all that type of stuff too or or or or is it if you're a one lane type of comedian is that cool in your opinion I I mean I feel like whatever you comfortable with see what I'm saying because a lot of people ain't comfortable with that stage you know I mean I didn't did all of it so like I don't know like for me I didn't get all of it you know I mean but for everybody I like stand up ain't for everybody you know I mean that [ __ ] a whole different monster you know I me why you say that because it's like like it's [ __ ] that you got to know like you got to know time you know I mean you got to know punch lines you got to know how to build a joke up you know you got to sit traps type [ __ ] I mean so it's like an art front for like it's actually some people that probably ain't even funny in real life but they comedians you see what I'm saying cuz they just know the art of telling jokes ver being just naturally funny like you might be naturally funny and get on stage and can't you that's true just how some of these rap [ __ ] be lying boom same way but they sound good exactly that [ __ ] sound good [ __ ] make [ __ ] sound good you go get some money yeah how it go what's the inspiration for your skits uh cuz a lot of it seem like day-to-day just man really just like life and um me like because and I say that because [ __ ] I'm damn near like a psych patient like you know I mean my mama was a paranoid schizophrenic so I come from like my mind be racing so this [ __ ] like therapy for me I just get to get out [ __ ] that's just in my mind all day which is some stupid [ __ ] that I just be thinking about so now I get to relay that on on on camera so let me answer this so just going back to what you said about your mom how was it growing up in a household with somebody that was battling mental illness like that uh definitely a struggle definitely definitely a struggle like uh I want to say my mom probably was your dad there yeah yeah actually my dad raised me like um okay RP my dad um he actually like like when they split my dad took me so I ra with my dad you know what I mean like okay and and he was a old man like my dad was born 1929 he was in World War II real [ __ ] on God everything my dad born in 1929 [ __ ] in World War II so I so so I be having more on God how how old was your daddy when he had you he had me he was like 50 something okay that that add up yeah yeah yeah okay yeah I'm talking about dead that [ __ ] was in World War II so so he put certain mors and [ __ ] in a [ __ ] that I know people ain't even got no more you know what I mean so that's why people be thinking I sound how I do because you know what I mean like I was raised with a Elder you know I mean that [ __ ] was a real Elder you see what I'm saying so with him he was like the um coherent parent of the group you see what I'm saying my mama was wild Young illness type [ __ ] so my daddy was like the one that took us and raised us you see what I'm saying but growing up in the house with that [ __ ] yeah that [ __ ] was a struggle I think that's why I get my comedic comedic side front cuz my mama she Ain have no fut she'll say anything to anybody at any time and like people didn't know she was you know I mean she was like she had the illness or whatever and they thought that she was trying to be funny or like but it was funny though it was funny though I can't C like my MMA was funny as hell though like rip she was funny as hell she Ain what she'll say anything out M like a like a child worse like a adult that know better but still say some [ __ ] like like for real like your homeboy might come over there she might just look at your homeboy and say some [ __ ] like I bet your dick little out of nowhere real [ __ ] where you from originally originally I was born in tusi Alabama I was born in my grandma house 46 yeah I went to school down there oh you did yeah they told you with the locals oh I'm cool with a couple of them shouts the street of Frank Walkin some of them so was your daddy a part of the experiment that they did down there no uh no my dad U he was from Chicago so he had came later but yeah Tusk experiments like a lot of my family members and [ __ ] was affected by that like d yeah did they ever give them reparations for that I think they just now I think they just yeah yeah they did yeah they did yeah they they got reparation for it but it was only like a small group of them left by time they did get to him what you think about this [ __ ] cat you watch that cat we [ __ ] yeah hell what you think about that I think it's a lot of truth to it like I don't know I don't know them folk person I don't want to say too much cuz godamn I ain't trying to get black ball before I get I just talking [ __ ] but now I I I definitely I see that [ __ ] here like you know I mean it's like a you know kind of like a little pecking order gatekeeping type [ __ ] like people gatekeep in all rounds no matter how big small so I think every city got that [ __ ] and then you get to the industry they got their own Gatekeepers so or you feel like they be trying to hold [ __ ] out you think you think that's possible yeah well I ain't going to say it I I think if you weak if you weak it'll stop you like [ __ ] like you know what I mean if you don't say [ __ ] I'm make it anyway know I mean it can scare you off and you just like I seen some with um the Wayne brother he was like somebody said something to him and he start doing stand up for like 10 years so that [ __ ] can really you know what I mean shake you in the wrong way you the whole body if you let it you know I mean but I feel like if you're a [ __ ] that come from nothing I truly feel like what's for you is for you though that's true I don't know it might be harder for you I don't feel like no n can keep you out yeah it might keep you out of they Circle yeah that's what said they situation yeah but this [ __ ] too big man you can make a way man I be [ __ ] excuses I feel but I I I feel the way you feel but I also feel like if the right [ __ ] sprays your name then it's going to be I don't want to say next to Impossible but it can be super [ __ ] overly extremely difficult in mostu but it's it's it still B down to B down to how hard you go look at the [ __ ] that they do spray the [ __ ] going hard about this [ __ ] man yeah but [ __ ] look how I look that's true look look at the [ __ ] who it's a it's a it's a lot of casual to that [ __ ] what I'm saying it's a lot of casualty to that [ __ ] because I feel like you laid down at the end of the day that's true that what I said what I said like if you weak you going to fold you going to fold in on yourself that [ __ ] really be mental like if somebody get in your head and you don't get that [ __ ] out Bo like [ __ ] what's the [ __ ] name B Simon that [ __ ] went what number one FK got in that [ __ ] head he Ain like performing to his best n they ain't getting they ain't getting his head he want it he W it he W it yeah sometimes CU I I don't really know a lot about that [ __ ] I just know R talked about him in the song he said like Ben Timmons I ain't going nowhere or something yeah he had a hell of a agent he had a hell of a agent they giving him money based on what they thought he might be able to do what I'm saying he ain't never do it though but the [ __ ] it paid him based off of his potential exactly but he got man he got gunshot BR the man wouldn't even shoot the basketball man that's in your head he wouldn't even take a shot n he ain't shoo bro cuz he wasn't going to make it man he didn't shoot it he could he could he didn't even drive I'm just saying if okay let's take Ben Simmons maybe I'm being in a homer and let's take Ant-Man all right Antman shoot that's what I was saying last night what I said what I said if you weak I'm saying like he mentally KN up it's you right I see what you say you say take the shot forget that like an is from the west side that dog I know to do matter [ __ ] lay down everywhere it's a [ __ ] laying down on every side of town same how you name one [ __ ] that stood up I bet we can a fire [ __ ] that done laid down laid down [ __ ] [ __ ] up Z they ain't do nothing to Zion he did it to himself I mean who Z the big dude who be smashing the porn or whatever Zion Williamson the boy can jump though like boy can jump yeah you getting paid to jump jumping don't win championships and games but it's early too though early super early he got he got a minute man he still got he got time to like when did he get signed once you he been in the league six years that ain't ear I been in about six years yeah I'm thinking like three n he been playing hurt two of them oh yeah that's what it is that's that's what it is that's is my opinion when when it comes to like the athlete [ __ ] some people just ain't got it but that's what I'm saying like people I think a lot of people put emphasis on it like that [ __ ] just everywhere that [ __ ] ain't that [ __ ] real rare but if but if you're not it and then on top of that you don't have self-esteem then like you're going you're going to flop every time you going to f in on yourself like you going to be your worst enemy you going to godamn you're going to implode facts hey what what a character scam come from man this [ __ ] so crazy so the the interview that future did with Kevin Sam I watched that interview I like well that [ __ ] don't give a [ __ ] about [ __ ] just just his demeanor how he was just like yeah I me a [ __ ] by like I like but this [ __ ] just so nonchalant so I was like damn what if the scammer was like that like [ __ ] just pull all kind of moves don't give a [ __ ] about the consequences so and it's crazy I watched I I the interview was on TV and I just like hey I want to shoot a skit by the Atlanta scammer and then in like 10 minutes I just he like he need a name I was like [ __ ] scam like Le oh like scam likely I'm like no not likely but like Le like l e e so I just ran with that [ __ ] and that [ __ ] just stuck so hard that people like people don't even call me by my name they just call me scam introdu you fact so I like [ __ ] scam so I just ran with it man and that [ __ ] just naturally like took off because I feel like you know that's what we living in anyway what you think about SC game I mean [ __ ] is though you go with your move like you had if it made sense yeah yeah [ __ ] me too if it made sense like I feel like I did everything it is to do in the streets like everything like a [ __ ] that played all positions in that [ __ ] I had been a fake ass little pimp before godamn s everything it is I did everything so [ __ ] why not riding around that man we was making no money man but that [ __ ] him [ __ ] the hard [ __ ] listen [ __ ] listen sh but then the crazy thing is just talking to them folk like when you talk like real PE and [ __ ] they be like you got to coach the [ __ ] talk I ain't got the patience to keep talking to no [ __ ] about some [ __ ] just keep on telling you some [ __ ] that you should know [ __ ] that I go get me some drugs or something baby this [ __ ] slow oh when with that turning point though huh like the Turn Point like man I'm just feel cuz you always legit now right yo for sure why he looking around I won't be on big face for real no I am though we in the turtle what it was though like you know [ __ ] I ain't going to lie but you know the pandemic had [ __ ] boom [ __ ] was eating good like you know I mean so I had enough money to where I was like damn I can kind of ease up off this you know I mean this [ __ ] cuz at first like I said I I never wanted to do comedy because of that like I mean I was dealing with [ __ ] in the street I ain't really want no [ __ ] to feel like I was no funny [ __ ] you know what I mean when you dealing with certain amount of money so once I once I felt like I made enough money then I was like [ __ ] I can kind of start doing comedy like you know doing my skits and [ __ ] so like I said I had sat down like um my turning my main turning point though was and this is trueu I had went to Miami for new years and [ __ ] so I had on took a I thought was edible so I ate a edible but I don't know what for issue was like it it had to be like strs or something yeah cuz boy I had the worst trip of my life [ __ ] like I'm I'm I'm zooed you know you you know when you get too high you think you about to die and [ __ ] that's what I was on I'm like well I'm I'm G I'm out of here so so I walk to the gas station to get some milk drunk drunk drunk a gallon of milk that man that [ __ ] only wors when you swallow dope no no that milk workk any natural high and that milk work that sh why the [ __ ] y'all ain't G me milk that day I was TR to die want to see it you milk what you talking about let no El kill you bro you just tripping but that how that [ __ ] had me that [ __ ] do that [ __ ] take you to a psychedelic listen boy that [ __ ] had listen I swear to God on everything I got back to the room after drinking the milk [ __ ] I lay on the bed I'm like I'm going to die I just Clos my eyes I'm in the universe I'm just in the universe like but I can see my body on the bed with my ey closed I owe my eyes I'm back in the room close my eyes I'm in the universe so I start seeing myself on stage with a microphone like that was astro Projection what when you had that where you supposed to be at though that's what I was saying like but I think what it is though I think it's it's like a unified Feld and you see all the possibilities that you can be right so that was me in the future looking back at me like see what I'm saying even with Dreams yeah exactly like [ __ ] was telling me come on like do what we on so I'm like man I'm going to do this [ __ ] then I got back to Atlanta boy my cousin was standing with him but [ __ ] tow tow a hole in my head thing gone you yeah why part me empty [ __ ] gone all [ __ ] gone you know I mean see make sense yeah I see see yeah we CH we chopped up and [ __ ] y chopped it up yeah I mean you was just like no regular chop up like you know I mean but you know I mean like like what what the excuse was why he broke in your [ __ ] no I say he was standing [ __ ] that [ __ ] a break in that [ __ ] lit there I'm saying where the excuse was taking out with the [ __ ] uh I don't even remember so about like he probably felt like I owed him or some [ __ ] yeah but it probably wasn't that you know what I mean but like he was staying with you and you owed him it be like that sometime the [ __ ] kind of [ __ ] but but you just know like you know I mean like [ __ ] was just getting out the fed you know [ __ ] PTSD like you know what I mean home to steep so you know what I mean home you doing stand up yeah yeah I didn't I didn't did stand up I did step away from it though cuz like I said it's it's so much politics and that [ __ ] and that [ __ ] ain't paying nothing they think it ain't paying nothing I got a little something for you want do [ __ ] show yeah we September I when is it April May damn that's May May 4th Saturday May 4 okay you know I got I gota get back on stage that [ __ ] A that [ __ ] ain't just like no just you know I mean that [ __ ] real real you got to get back up St you just got to get in your bag right yeah yeah but but it's like like I said like it's about time so like that's why you do it every night so you can got damn sharpen your your skills no we had um we had my man on here man don't you you got to get you gotta got damn we just had Henry up here right oh yeah yeah Henry my boy yeah Henry said the same [ __ ] like you got to exercise [ __ ] going and 100 50 people rooms 25 people in the room you still gota go work your material even if you comeing in [ __ ] working on us yeah for real people you got to work that material bro if a n GNA do this [ __ ] n gota do it all the way no but see that's what I was saying like so I noticed like if you try to do that and the content one of them going to suffer see what I'm saying so why you say that because like the amount of time that you got to take like like [ __ ] what's her name did it country Wayne did it but he he I'm saying like them [ __ ] beat but but what I'm saying like once they did one of them surer I ain't going to say like the quality of the content serer but the amount that you putting out going to go down you got to balance it at that point you got to balance it yeah I know it but I'm saying like far as like especially like now because [ __ ] gate you see what I'm saying so it's still like I ain't like [ __ ] don't like internet comedians for real that I to say really respect yeah exactly like you get chance pause edit you get a chance do all that [ __ ] want that [ __ ] on the spot but but it's the thing though it's like she like they it's kind of like the old mindset like how [ __ ] was Pass Out CD ain't no more CD so [ __ ] don't know how to transition you see what I'm saying so it's kind of like that like they be want you to just only do stand up rooms and [ __ ] but it's like I got the internet why would I go touch a whole another see what I'm saying like you can reach way more still though them [ __ ] but [ __ ] Ain't Going [ __ ] [ __ ] don't really internet comedian oh but iig who like being the trench you know what I'm saying the people do like I love it yeah but I'm saying like comedians who gotdamn know where they got it from gotam getting them $20 nights godamn [ __ ] [ __ ] that got a drink you know saying [ __ ] get a [ __ ] [ __ ] like them nigg feel like they got it out the mud but that's still like a yeah [ __ ] up um perspective but I get it you know what I'm saying for what they feel like what they put in every comedian should put in but [ __ ] something it's the luck of the [ __ ] gu what I got this [ __ ] out the mud too I got this [ __ ] with a phone and a goddamn ring light a cheat one at that godamn exactly you know I mean cord breaking off that [ __ ] I had to wire that b back together put some tape around it so it's the same [ __ ] it's just like I said it's people perspective like you know what I mean and me honestly I ain't going to give a [ __ ] what another [ __ ] think about me like [ __ ] I ain't in it to be you know I mean I mean do you feel do you feel sometime like man yeah I need I need to goam go and get in that I need to go on and Mer that part so then let them know I can do it do you ever ever get but I did I ain't going to lie I did you see what I'm saying like I performed at a you know what I mean like a at a high stage what you know I mean [ __ ] some big dogs from the city like boy you got it know I mean it just like I said that [ __ ] wasn't making no sense for me and it's taking away from some [ __ ] that do make money so what I'm saying like I'm making money on Instagram and Facebook and [ __ ] like that so I'm making way more money than I would be trying to do taking a risk anything $200 [ __ ] you got to get into it with anything n that [ __ ] your security none of that [ __ ] yeah that [ __ ] A you been spank the [ __ ] on camera for what hell cuz the nigg [ __ ] G they move yeah cuz I ain't going to think I'm black out a whole another side be like oh n that [ __ ] don't even want that turn the big to workout what it name big Q got turn the big Q onig ass yeah I don't even want to play n but you get what I'm saying though yeah that [ __ ] that that don't make sense to be cuz I went gotam I would just say if I I want to be a rapper right there I would do my [ __ ] online I wouldn't be at no open mics that [ __ ] dangerous yeah what I'm saying like [ __ ] like like you not going to gain no fans from that [ __ ] like I had a homeboy yes you are no you yes you are fans from what okay from from like open m stand up talk open mik rapping or you talking about stand up comedian stand up comedian I'm saying you make no money off no you might not make no money off of it but you like people will put your name with your face and it'll like help increase your family I agree that but well you got to get on the internet the internet no the internet is definitely over it but I'm saying touching the people is is going to make a difference also but most of the people outside [ __ ] but then what I say though like other crew y'all rapping my bad J y'all rapping other crew other open mic and you f then we got to get into it cuz you f yeah how this [ __ ] go comedian comedian okay we on the same show together [ __ ] mad at me cuz I just was funny as hell y that'll get you [ __ ] up real talk like cuz then they ain't going to want to put you on their show you see what I'm saying because every like I feel like most comedians everybody want to feel like the funnyest [ __ ] in the room just like okay a artist right let's say if two artists in the room and one get to playing his music the other [ __ ] going to get be ready for him to cut him music off so he can play his [ __ ] like come on man r that [ __ ] up so I can play my [ __ ] my [ __ ] F like your [ __ ] cool but my [ __ ] so it's the same thing you know mean it's the same [ __ ] and doing open mics [ __ ] steal your jokes I had a [ __ ] steal my whole [ __ ] and do the [ __ ] the next day because I was like I ain't know you see what I'm saying so they we was talking about that yeah so they'll tell you like don't do open mics and comedy cuz writers and [ __ ] be in the crowd to Ste [ __ ] jokes remix so it's a conspiracy yeah GNA remix your [ __ ] yeah like he ain't going nowh with that he funny I see what he Tred to do I'm show how to do it like your delivery or something might be off what I'm saying you how to do you a real funny ass [ __ ] get your [ __ ] too fast I know how to do it I know how to perform the joke better than and then boom got some of they [ __ ] with your [ __ ] that [ __ ] is that [ __ ] out of here TV so it just this [ __ ] just like I said sh just like a rap game you had to skit one time about like dating in Atlanta and [ __ ] what's your like what's your take on dating in Atlanta man have fun God damn don't take nothing serious like this [ __ ] ain't serious out here for real what you mean I feel like this [ __ ] a big ass high school for real I mean like Atlanta man I I would me personally I wouldn't like for love and no [ __ ] out here like for real like I feel like if you ain't already got it like new generation New Age day this [ __ ] over with like if you ain't already got love and marriage and wife and all that [ __ ] over with in Atlanta as of today it's a rap what you saying in a certain age group or just period or just period because everybody mind mind frames have change you see what I'm saying everybody mind is right now she it's okay to hurt whoever is long as is you happy like everybody feel like everything Justified as long as I'm looking out for me and I'm happy then she it's whatever it's cold real you saying no no consideration for nobody nobody if you look at everything everybody talking about online and all the toxicity [ __ ] everybody really just out for self and it's okay like like everybody promoe it's okay to be for yourself like no team ball no nothing I ain't going to lie I I help a lot of people though but I I I I've been on that lately like [ __ ] that I got to figure me out cuz that's the way the world live bro yeah but that's what I'm saying saying that the way the world live like whoever with me like this [ __ ] we doing yeah yeah this me figuring me out I can't worry about goddamn going play goddamn tennis yeah you know what I'm saying cuz my my buddy want to play tennis all day ain't no money in tennis bro for me I need to be right here doing this [ __ ] so I got to do what serve me I don't I don't knock that so that's why that's why I'm saying like the D SC sh like that like [ __ ] ain't nobody really going to stick it out with no [ __ ] till it's too late you see what I'm saying like that's how I feel anyway from my experience and your ass ain't lit ain't got nothing for you so you saying like the ho going anyway going gone they gone get the elevator with that SM that B that b he don't know what you say oh yeah really that that Clyde Christian but you know what I mean CDE be G out of here what's that come on what floor you stay on oh seven whole time [ __ ] paying for the [ __ ] all kind of [ __ ] tricky you don't think it's a circle though I think you don't think it's the circle like it's like that circle of people he right see see see you you speaking from where you at he's saying like outside the circle is different though but I but but this the thing I say with men it might be you see what I'm saying like for the for the men that's outside that Circle they don't know what we talking about see what I'm saying they don't but all the women know because they all going to get brought into that Circle see what I'm saying all women been out somewhere and a [ __ ] didn't caught they ey [ __ ] with some money and they gone they gone cuz Atlanta like Atlanta like people it's a wom that it's a wom that be it's a women that be up in Chastain Park at some [ __ ] Neil Soul jazz [ __ ] that be out the way yeah you talking about a different Circle CC you talking about the hook you talking about the Hooka Circle no uh I'm talking about all walk the [ __ ] is the hookah Circle CC the hookah lounges and [ __ ] n I'm talking about all no but I mean it's it's people like it's people that go to the hookah lounges the hookah Circle or whatever they got their own money that's not giv a Fu about what another [ __ ] got but it's not that it's not also just about money see that's what like I ain't saying like what it is SC it's just that stuff on like it's just that stuff like you know certain people got that stuff right so what I'm saying is like and the reason why I say that the reason why I say that because I I watched like when I was a young [ __ ] my partner this [ __ ] had everything this [ __ ] uh drop head godamn benty truck all this [ __ ] I done watch every type of woman from every type of Walk of Life come in the [ __ ] spot and he tell them folks straight up the [ __ ] make Ann hey look you ain't going to suck like at the end of night you can get up and get the [ __ ] out and I Ain never see not one woman get up and leave like got me [ __ ] up and I seen the [ __ ] with doctors lawyers them them so-called Neo Soul [ __ ] I ain't never seen not one of them get up and say no [ __ ] up never by them folks oh now you put yourself in that position now what he saying is listen it's hoes everywhere yeah I'm talk about scientist nurse doctor D judges whatever hoes women going to be women some of them but what he's saying is he's saying the on they don't even allow theyel to pull up on bro that's what I'm saying cuz we talk it don't matter what walk a life it's still a select few women she can be outside and still won't pull up on you I know some [ __ ] who ain't going I know a lot of them going but some of them ain't going but see that's a lot of them that ain't going some of them ain't going I'mma keep it 100 he take that right [ __ ] but some of still but okay what what you said take cuz we all know son like damn ain't nobody like everybody compar like but you ain't nobody [ __ ] who we know [ __ ] nobody but like you said you said take that right [ __ ] right now knowing how competitive Atlanta is you don't think that [ __ ] somewh in the crowd know he in the crowd but the thing about it is she know that but it like I a listen listen I'm going to V with some of them CU I know some of them bro just because and that's then the one to elevate too yes like we like it's it's like going every circle of [ __ ] all my budy is sniper diapers yeah so we going to know who done smashed her like what about her like [ __ ] send your picture around yeah that what [ __ ] do like who this is if I DM you a girl you know what that mean who this is yeah oh that oh that you send that [ __ ] around to the [ __ ] who already who making them announcements tell them to all them [ __ ] who make them announcements they going to come back and be like I don't know her I don't know her I don't know her I don't know her she good she might be that over there in the other crowd now with what you saying go ahead but but see that's what I'm saying I'm not saying like all cuz it's impossible to say all of course of course it's a couple most yeah of course it's a couple Butterfly by The hornest Nest but [ __ ] [ __ ] I ain't going to stand by and let the [ __ ] sting me I'm getting the [ __ ] on [ __ ] them butterflies you see what I'm saying so that's all I'm saying like yeah [ __ ] can't it's hard to deci what I said on Instagram standing beside them it's hard to deci which one is which so and I like man and this thing I think think Atlanta is kind of like this [ __ ] [ __ ] you up this [ __ ] [ __ ] you up cuz it's just like the Lifey like man ain't no I ain't really seen no place like Atlanta like this [ __ ] really is the mecca of like Black Culture to me you know what I mean like I feel like [ __ ] Atlanta is like Legend like even if you just staying in Atlanta right now this [ __ ] Legend like this a legend this a legendary City so the [ __ ] that go on here it go on everywhere like that you know what I mean so it's just the the level of competition and you got you you got to be a dog to be out this [ __ ] for real yeah yeah you got to be you got to have some real dog in you for real and most and most people ain't got I ain't going to say most [ __ ] most about people that's outside but now I'm talking about even the [ __ ] working 9 to5 that don't even go nowhere and [ __ ] they can't even keep up like but you know that [ __ ] ain't but a job and and paying bill you G have to do some you GNA have to do something something he ain't gonna be able to just work come home pay bills and be straight unless your ass stay somewhere in caning or something but down here oh no we close to the city but your ass through so you think you ever lock in like on some relationship [ __ ] man I have goddamn go somewhere else not in that like how I used to be seen so much you Tain yeah there's always exception that can't I believe exceptions to the rule I don't know bro I didn't had a [ __ ] in the bed we finished and it be like you just made me commit adultery I'm like what wait what I didn't know you was married damn yeah that a know what I'm saying like a boy say that to everybody so that [ __ ] hit different like damn B that [ __ ] crazy it could be just bad in small towns though they just more sneaky and quiet going I trust that because I know Atlanta exists see what I'm saying so you ain't being brought to Atlanta and tested then you don't know see what I'm saying like she might just be like that she ain't got the opportunity see you ain't got no opportunity to be no hope everybody your daddy the preacher everybody know you in town so you Ain had no opportunity to be no hope bring her to Atlanta unleash her and then she got what she TV see see sh you see on TV right there like right there magic and [ __ ] will try you like nigg be like come here [ __ ] [ __ ] who you would never thought tell you come here tell you come here come here it going to [ __ ] you up it's going to blow your mind man I didn't seen that [ __ ] but that [ __ ] and I tell [ __ ] like man don't bring your girl up here dog don't bring your girl over here man if you if you coming from my of town you come man leave don't bring your old lady man try to move up it with her but none of that [ __ ] dead she just can't do this no more none of they can't do this no more it's too hard I think you should you think bring your girl to Atlanta you going to lock all the way in you need to know what you locking in with yeah they do it us us a woman a woman a woman will bring you around all her badass friends to see what you on yeah they do that [ __ ] to us yeah yeah yeah yeah I go yeah so expose her take her to uh you break around your don't take a center with a friends y'all go have fun n but look you take around your R po but get the poping all that sh man sh going to be in the air like this here over with what facts like they'll come back cuz a lot like I don't really know him like that anyway tell I don't really know I met him for real what we've been together two years it ain't that serious we do that take your serious like like I telling about my buddy right P who had had the bag listen man like you might be [ __ ] that really like me they might think I'm handsome but they not coming home with me but at the end of the night like if if shl say hey what's up they over with yeah I had to respect it I had like okay [ __ ] it I got to get on my grind like I ain't mad that is how the game is right now oh you got the [ __ ] you you got the [ __ ] over there with the looks his buddy got there went here he got bag put him in the pot up for you I had like I had like a oldale rain roll buty got a new bit truck baby go go with him I'm go go go with him go go [ __ ] I see you going I see you going I see you going and I ain't mad cuz I understand the game gu what I'mma have my turn and when I have my turn I don't want none of the old ho that already been [ __ ] up [ __ ] they gonna be all of them no but it's some new [ __ ] coming out the [ __ ] every day oh man it's some [ __ ] coming out the [ __ ] every day brand new don't even know what's out here yeah Michael cor Pur she Michel Michael cor Bel she cool I want to hold bottles I see they they uhuh they already know I already know they know what to buy yeah they know how person ah n i buy my cor coach i d by some Reb classes what you oh man Dam n that [ __ ] that [ __ ] real man sad reality it's Savage out here man like the wor listen man then the raapers don't [ __ ] [ __ ] man if you [ __ ] really bad man it's old we so it's really bad for real like really bad oh it's over with she might have some morals man n this [ __ ] like draing them and DM your girl just a space like put space in send it blank bubble you know what that mean this in the location [ __ ] man [ __ ] send your [ __ ] that big ass air Drake plane facts don't bring nothing they going to pick you up wherever you was standing there stand right there leave everything they going to pick you up to pick you up don't move they to pick you up in some [ __ ] take you to the helicopter helicopter to edate fly your ass to somewhere you never seen before bro you gone that would worth that whole relationship B care man this [ __ ] crazy bro was the [ __ ] true about how how the [ __ ] um how Drake had this sing out there with with her husband he sent the [ __ ] home man it was a story like it was a singer that he was like trying to I guess sign or some [ __ ] he flew her in her husband out and then like for a week or some [ __ ] and then like the last couple days sent the husband home man he [ __ ] cold I just when you about I just said my [ __ ] Joel Silver right shout out was movie producer Big Boy producer he told me a story one time I'm tell B [ __ ] it he said he said his wife when he first seen his wife she was married he told her I'mma marry you but him her and him her and her husband work for him he sent this [ __ ] on a movie for six months in a whole another state and kept the [ __ ] with him and bar I'm telling you bro well not the [ __ ] his wife but I'm just saying it's just like bro it's over with it's over with some [ __ ] what they want they can get if [ __ ] up to say that but did you see what I'm saying cuz [ __ ] put in the full work you better not be slipping a inch like a inch some you better have a slip of an inch and to see if he I'm telling you bro this [ __ ] [ __ ] up and women are cold some women I'm not I'm not um generalized I'm just saying some women are cold BR it'll be like they never knew you yeah for real [ __ ] act like she never even knew your name like you don't exist like how many times you see women do that like men can't really do that like [ __ ] with you I [ __ ] with you no matter what I'm always [ __ ] with this [ __ ] I [ __ ] with her how [ __ ] is [ __ ] be invested yeah [ __ ] be like I [ __ ] with women when they boy this [ __ ] I don't know him and be de serious like I don't know him they don't convince theirself that they don't know you oh man especially especially if it's a [ __ ] around that got some [ __ ] going on but them f w look your way boy but I feel like I feel like for a female to act like she doesn't know a [ __ ] that she wants loved it had to be something that happened but look listen I feel always going to be done happen [ __ ] going to be [ __ ] wom always got a chance to justify their action because something happened we in this [ __ ] or we in this [ __ ] but what's crazy no but what I'm saying is like Mo nine times out of 10 if if a [ __ ] is really in love with a [ __ ] like for real for real like they going to get into it they going to fall out she going to say [ __ ] him a million times but if she really loves this [ __ ] she's G to love this [ __ ] forever but if it's some [ __ ] that like some unfor a lot of women I've been hearing this [ __ ] lately a lot of women be kicking at I can learn the love a [ __ ] and they never be unlearned truly till you see some [ __ ] you really love you thought you was in love that's what most the [ __ ] most the women do they be delusional some some way like they like I heard three women say that like recently I thought I was going to learn to love him it's conveyance versus love too though I think some women men probably too whatever get convenience [ __ ] up with love yeah they they enter into the relationship with potential and they enter the relationship with uh what it could be not what it is like I can't deal with you if it ain't what it is right then like it have to be that I can't potentially feel like that and saying that I love you and knowing you trying to we trying to fall in love we trying to do hell no I can't potentially I can't fake that but if you but okay so let me ask you this then if you don't to some degree fall in love with potential then that's D how how does your how does your love get tested in order for you to be able to know whether or not you can grow with this person that's what I'm saying so it ain't it listen on one thing about it hold up scam one thing about it when a [ __ ] your person you know what it is cuzz you can't it's just something about you know when you love a person you know when you want to love a person you know when I like her a lot but you know if a [ __ ] jump out the bush with a stick you ain't F to try to tote this [ __ ] like I'mma tote my [ __ ] like man hey I'm jump in front you don't think that's that's that's the test would you die [ __ ] jump out shooter stick is you going is you going to try to c shei a [ __ ] around run but but this disconnect I had real [ __ ] though that the truth but this a disconnect though this disconnect because she's thinking like a woman that's how women like women date potential a [ __ ] going to like what he see instantly like if I like you I [ __ ] like you like if a [ __ ] say Hey you my girl we already the God damn but but if but if you like me just based off of what you see then no he saying not see you observing her not the look fact the outer when I see you I see you I don't see what you look like on the outside that's why I tell my wife hey don't ask me unbiased whatever you do going I'm going like it don't ask me if I like it don't ask me if nothing I like you so I don't give a [ __ ] what it is that [ __ ] look good you know what I'm saying so that's just what it is so I can't don't ask me on bias so we don't see potential and [ __ ] yeah we see you you yeah like if I like how you make me feel I feel that if a [ __ ] say if a [ __ ] commit like cuz I don't know like it's hard as [ __ ] for me to say I want to commit cuz if feels like I'm giving up some [ __ ] like so I feel like no no man truly wants to commit but if he find a woman that he feel like man shout shout it shout it worth of everything shout it it like then of course he's going to commit but it's not no easy [ __ ] that [ __ ] just want to do like [ __ ] Ain't just running out here to commit you see what I'm saying like [ __ ] don't want to commit H understand but a [ __ ] will if you find something that you feel like worth like I ain't going to find nothing else like sh like she one of a lifetime I ain't going to find nothing else like her so we ain't looking at her potential cuz sh you could have a a a [ __ ] pot piss in a want throw out of her [ __ ] going godamn hop down on a woman but a woman ain't just going to [ __ ] with no broke straight broke ass no car no house no n [ __ ] she's off the bat they ain't going to do that but gu what man that [ __ ] rare that [ __ ] better have a foot long a foot long goddamn she going to have something that she want he ain't going to just be it going to be something going to be something now that's what I'm saying because a lot of like well not a lot but some some some men are able to and I've seen this happen a million times before some men are able to hide or like finesse the fact that they lack some of the most essential things and then by the time by the time you understand that you've been been Boozled you know what I'm saying like it's too late you already got for you think that [ __ ] been spending the night that [ __ ] really be got there sleeping but see that but but listen one by one but see putting a pair of shoes every day but but this my thing right see women cuz people agree that like women are smarter than men right nah n I'm saying like book smart like right I'm just saying like educational wise I feel like women got more intuition than men I feel like women are more emotionally int I'mma tell you let me say this right quick before I say this I'mma tell you what men do bro and I'm go and give it up [ __ ] hate when they girl be right bro you that [ __ ] that's the only thing piss us off what pissed me off is a [ __ ] can make up something in their head and be right like how you guess that you gu right so wom got superp power now like that why I be trying to tell her like you right about a lot of that [ __ ] but some of that [ __ ] you making up so I ain't going to let you know when you're making it up I ain't going to let you know when you're right you know what I'm saying but you be right though this [ __ ] be like God but this my thing right women know what they be talking about but this my thing right what I'm saying if women are smarter than men so to speak and they believe this right you believe women smarter men I mean yeah okay so then how you get manipulated how you getting tricked then how you don't know a [ __ ] got two pair of jeans how you how you don't know yeah how you don't know that how you don't know a [ __ ] got two pair of jeans I feel like I feel like some women want to believe in the best of a [ __ ] that a [ __ ] might have another pair of jeans somewhere you know what I'm saying like but you only seeing two see I'm saying that what I'm saying like men are more L but but but the women the woman might think that the [ __ ] might not want to expose his hand right away so the two pair is what he's showing to test the water to see if it makes sense to expose the third pair see that's delusion cuz guess what you ain't never been around no rich [ __ ] that just wear two pair of jeans the [ __ ] that really got it they coming out with all this [ __ ] on especially if they like you and they trying to get you they ain't hiding nothing they putting everything on the table CU they trying to get you so a [ __ ] only let me test her with these two jeans come on you know this niggaer ain't got nothing you know it but in your mind you want to believe like I'm making get a good decision even though you know it's some [ __ ] like this [ __ ] ain't got nothing but in your mind you want to make yourself believe that he tricked me he got me he got over on me cuz you know women know man just like you said just like Bank said women got intuition you can't tell that this [ __ ] ain't got nothing yo you ain't know your baby daddy was broke before you had babies with him then you a had one with him you had another one with him yeah that [ __ ] be kind of hard like how can you say you got trick it's just hard to say you got yeah that [ __ ] when women turn into repeat offenders excuse that's excuse you know you know that's what you attract you know what I'm saying and and and and and and and no I just feel like women do make up a lot of [ __ ] in their head but how do you feel about when people say that you like what you like exactly so except that's what you like yeah and stop trying to change [ __ ] [ __ ] you don't like cuz listen bro I'm tell you bro I know like if I was to try to be anybody else but me I probably get a divorce like I'm me but I'm I mean I'm different but I'm me if that make sense what I'm saying like I'm totally different but I'm me like the mors and and [ __ ] that just boy don't do that don't say that and all that that's that's centic you get what I'm saying but I'm me so just imagine if I tried to be somebody else I don't think I would I don't think I don't think she'll go for it even though what me gets on [ __ ] nerd but I try to be something else it ain't going to work out how you a like that okay so let me ask y this then how do y'all feel about it when people say that let's just say say your significant person other person or whatever cheats on you and people say that it doesn't make sense to leave because all you g to do is hook up with another cheater because everybody I agree has their you know their I agree for women I don't know about yeah I agree for women though and I'm say I know that [ __ ] going to sound sexies or whatever they call it but I thought you about to say sexy yeah it ain't it ain't enough [ __ ] fact so you get your [ __ ] up to go find another [ __ ] who just got just got left by another female who he cheated on like it's just a Revol Circle it's just a rev it depend on what you want like cuz all men don't cheat the guys I'm just keeping it real but the guys that y'all yeah don't want be want y'all don't want them guys like I hear so many women be like he boring he didn't he didn't God sent this man fool yeah right but you looking at goddamn be over here wasting time with me you yeah you looking at scam them you know what saying who ain't boy a going ain't going ain't going a lot of [ __ ] ain't going they already know you all the man this this [ __ ] so [ __ ] up cuz most of Mo like most of the time the [ __ ] that's good good the dudes that's good dude women look at them as weird y cornball mhm so like so this nigga's a real man gentle he's a man he's a man you w look God bwood breath B you smokeing bwood cut out you want to hear you hear girl how you don't want to hear that that sound cuz cuz you addicted to the [ __ ] yeah for real and that you ain't never seen that you know your mama going to be like what she doing like y y y y your people goingon to disapprove of that that [ __ ] [ __ ] up bro where you get him from yeah H Square boy H Square Bo sh but lame here but he the one for you and and you right BR be some good ass men and it's funny cuz a lot of folk think and I I had to explain that to cuz you know whenever I do what's name podcast them folk think that [ __ ] real so it be like I be getting hate mail and I just be like damn like this sh a joke yeah you be doing like the yeah that [ __ ] hard though finess finess yeah so it be a joke but I be saying some real [ __ ] so it catch like and that's all this [ __ ] really is just getting emotional response from people you see what I'm saying and boy them folk be going crazy on this [ __ ] like and I'm just saying like man for the most part it's a lot of good [ __ ] out there it just they don't want them [ __ ] they don't like and crazy because they don't even see them [ __ ] like if you if you try to explain like a good [ __ ] they don't even them [ __ ] invisible they only talk about the [ __ ] that they like which is a small percent you see what I'm saying like every [ __ ] ain't like that but the [ __ ] that you probably going to want he like that you see what I'm saying okay I say this right I say this right a woman want a [ __ ] well not all women women want to pull up with a [ __ ] that other [ __ ] respect and and all the [ __ ] that's what it is bro and all the [ __ ] want yeah that's what I'm saying they want to pull yeah pull up with a niggga that ever that the [ __ ] respect and the [ __ ] want that's other than that man not a [ __ ] that's like okay that that that want them [ __ ] who the [ __ ] who like cuz she want to feel a slight sense of of that yeah yeah that you might can yeah like cuz if I feel like I'm the only one want you then no no thrill this ain't man no thrill I feel like they want a [ __ ] they want a niggga to get all the hoes but then they want to get the [ __ ] and make the niggaer not get no more ho damn like I want you to be able to get all the hoes but I don't want I be able to stop you from getting all the hoes to say that I was the one yeah when have you seen that done before that why I keep trying to add the the lates like you seen you you seen your whoever your cousin get cheated on your sister everybody in the circle every no not get cheated on your brother is a cheater your uncle your daddy your cousin your nephew you done help him he ain't here girl he was here all night you done help people cheat what makes you think you f to get the [ __ ] that don't if he D type of [ __ ] I'm not saying all men cheat I'm saying like certain type of [ __ ] is just outside and them [ __ ] it too many I ain't going lie bro I say I think all men do cheat I think you only as faithful as your options I feel like nigg if a [ __ ] ain't capable of cheat then he ain't and most [ __ ] is broke and working for that 30 hours of God damn 24 hours a day they can't cheat [ __ ] depend what your focus is man I'm like I know [ __ ] is [ __ ] in the factory that what I'm saying work them nigg who got there got time to to talk talk they work B out that [ __ ] the [ __ ] nigg super cheating them R [ __ ] they s right there on the they they did a study and show like the the Lesser [ __ ] make the more likely he is to be faithful versus the more money a [ __ ] make the more he you know that though come on but that's what I'm saying so I'm saying like any like what I say to women is like what [ __ ] don't want to be a king like if if if you walk up to a man on the street like but some that [ __ ] don't make some [ __ ] King though other [ __ ] make some I know but I'm just saying like I the reason why I use the term King is because like okay [ __ ] what king had one Queen and no conine just for real like what king just had one wife one and he just was n that [ __ ] [ __ ] everything boy it was a [ __ ] in China boy this [ __ ] if you want to work next to the emperor you had to chop your dick off cuz he had so many hoes you had to chop your dick off to work in the castle in the padet cuz he ain't want you to godamn cuz you know she I know you ain't [ __ ] exactly but he a [ __ ] na here he going to [ __ ] nothing in here cuz guess why [ __ ] I cuz my my my son going to be a Heir so you can't like it ain't no practic test and all DNA test and [ __ ] so you leave your dick at the door come work in the [ __ ] so just think like all I'm saying is like you walk up to any average man and be like hey you you want to be king king of Atlanta for the day what [ __ ] going be like nah like hell yeah I want to cuz Men We value that [ __ ] we value power and Prestige and status and [ __ ] like that ambition you see I'm saying so you saying you saying basically like Ain a [ __ ] if a [ __ ] in a [ __ ] in the right situation to go yeah yeah give a [ __ ] 100 Mil boy what that [ __ ] dick GNA fall off F 100 million and everybody know it everybody know you got 100 milon women know you got 100 million my debate my only debate you got it might and it might be a lot more rare that just mean don't no loyalty exists nowhere for nobody but that philosophy I'm just saying with that philosophy then n but but but but but I got I got I gotta disagree on that because loyalty ain't to me loyalty ain't defined by sex yeah what you talking about to say I'm say he said he just saying get some [ __ ] I ain't saying like leave my wife [ __ ] oh you saying like that I'm saying you some [ __ ] I'm going to play I'm to I'm not I'm not no advocate for Cheetos or none of that but I'm saying is I get what he's saying yeah for real am I Tripp it what I'm saying he's saying like you never know what position you get in and where you start to see yourself at when you start when other people start to see you different but I can't I get what you saying no I I hear what he saying I'm just saying that you that's really it for real so okay so let me let me rephrase then so money will change you but do y'all think loyalty do you think a person if a person cheat on you they're disloyal to you if if y'all if y ain't got the agreement don't cheat H if the agreement if if if if if if if if you cheated on your dude right do you feel like you disloyal to him keep it real yeah I do it depends on how you unless unless unless unless she has an understanding with him that you can cheat n it ain't no understanding with that type of [ __ ] like if I'm with you no it's an understand some people have open relationship with you or whatever then like I'm with you if we've agreed to be together or if we've agreed to do this [ __ ] or however the [ __ ] whatever like say for instance um what if you done did everything else to do everything you took care you got them you there for them they sick they locked up anything you there right but you [ __ ] are you disloyal or unfaith both both unless some some one says you I I know that you're cheating and I don't give look the word see I look that up that's a good I'm telling you look up the word loyalty Loy look at the word loyalty and look up unfaith I think we did this one time on on another podcast on on big facts but are you disloyal or Unfaithful both Unfaithful both that's cold right now right Elite cuz a [ __ ] can do some disloyal [ __ ] to you and be faithful to you disloyal means failing to be loyal to a person or body to which one has obligations but loyalty Unfaithful but loyalty the word faithfulness is in loyalty what's what's lloy faithfulness in a steadfast face of Temptation renounced desert or betray see I'm getting a whole different what's name I don't know strong feeling of support or Alliance thank you that's what that that's Unfaithful is which one you looked up I think this sh Oxford yeah this Oxford I'm saying what's the name loyer you look up loyalty all right loyalty is what a strong feeling of support or Alliance so if you ain't broke the support of Alli or Alliance the alliance could be no the alliance could it's black the alliance the alliance could be that we ain't going to cheat I'm saying we go down that rabbit hole huh we can go down that rabbit holead but if someone does something the respect to make you feel betrayed then it violates loyalty and faithfulness what okay Faith that's all I'm saying of being fa yeah that's like say that's like saying just on some homeboy [ __ ] all right this homeboy always did everything right but then snitch who he told him you see what I'm saying though but but see it's different because like faithfulness is almost like crazy you know that way that's that's the new [ __ ] out here now like [ __ ] ain't told on me who he told on [ __ ] like that's the new [ __ ] that [ __ ] crazy and what's [ __ ] is disgusting I'm so glad I'm so glad I'm a comedian y boy I ain't even got to worry about this [ __ ] I don't even give a [ __ ] about this [ __ ] like boy I'm so glad I ain't even like even cuz it's like man this [ __ ] different bro like I this [ __ ] just way different I never thought that I see today that this [ __ ] would be like you know what I mean [ __ ] R and just keep rapping and keep you know what I mean this [ __ ] crazy for real 2024 so that's why I'm so we I listen man and I always take the [ __ ] to weird space because my mind just be weird sometimes y'all my mind be weird sometime but you see how we create AI right it's Dam nck can can grow to be a life for because AI going to be AI like robots going to be able to make other robots right M it's like a birth go hold up hold up being H me out all right so that's that's basically not humans I guess we're humans not that's basically another form of humanity right if they if they just go to building [ __ ] they we got our own fact we building [ __ ] and they multiply multiply multiply right who's to say that another planet didn't make us and the same [ __ ] hold on hold on hold on let me let me get this off the same little little plug ups and [ __ ] we putting in them they just electric they could have found some [ __ ] like brains organs and all that it's the same [ __ ] cuz it's from a different planet right it's still got damn [ __ ] this uh this at the top [ __ ] this the hard drive no real [ __ ] though am I tripping we got a hard drive computer we got we got a whole our bodies are basically computers right yeah they work like them similar cars if you think about a car car got engine who [ __ ] huh who controls all that what you mean who controls it we probably ran nor Atlanta philosophy that [ __ ] making s though J yeah it ain't but it listen bro we so if AI run off right now who's to say Humanity didn't run off so how they ain't find us if they was in control of us I'm saying we we can we can find a them [ __ ] bucking with sticks and [ __ ] they they them folk gret them folk they [ __ ] they they what they is now I ever heard little Fishbowl Theory what's that basically like the aliens tray the humanity and they just watch us I believe need that bro fish bowl the like like like you know how you just go and look at the fish tank the fish don't know you outside that [ __ ] they don't know what's going on outside the [ __ ] so it's a theory where they say like aliens created us and they just monitor us they just watch yeah I believe they just be watching us and [ __ ] I feel like it's too many of us for that [ __ ] to be going on what bro listen but but but how many shit's on the game you play the game right now you play a whole universe a whole world this [ __ ] is a real world in the yeah that a making [ __ ] you put [ __ ] on your you D near in that [ __ ] I just did a virtual reality [ __ ] over by um by um how me and Shante and dating went that [ __ ] that [ __ ] is real when you put them [ __ ] on your body you DN there you in there yeah the metaverse all that [ __ ] I don't know I think I think is we even woke now go rabbit B even W like [ __ ] you dreams and [ __ ] feel so real now come back so many times for me every day like I think I'm glitched up but you right but listen I had a dream and woke up and had to realize I had kids and [ __ ] I had a dream that I felt like [ __ ] I had a dream that I felt like I was there for like three months like I was living a whole life and all kind of [ __ ] Apartments trapping and all kind of [ __ ] and I woke up [ __ ] I had to be like where the [ __ ] I'm at I thought this [ __ ] was fake I thought what I was at was fake and the dream was real not real [ __ ] yeah that when they say you tapping in you can't determine well you know black folk about to get piles and [ __ ] super piles and [ __ ] huh Black Folk about to get super piles and [ __ ] y'all a see that what's yeah boy they saying Black Folk DNA DNA about to unlock and all kind of [ __ ] about to happen boy I just want to be a to fly and [ __ ] super speed I do think the Matrix I do think the Matrix [ __ ] was real though I do think we plug in and plug out when we go to sleep and wake up can't tell me bro I know I know I be glitching bro I ain't the only [ __ ] glitching y'all [ __ ] just don't be keeping it real [ __ ] just be trying to act like it don't exist I see everything you know what I'm saying you cuz with that fish sandwich yeah man what we doing scream about right it's all good man we appreciate you pulling up the big facts you know what I'm saying let everybody know where they can tap in with you and what you got coming up man look man y'all can tap in with me on YouTube Facebook Instagram Tik Tok everything all the same JQ health is cerski GQ Health J us s t q e H3 FF man the kid that did man you know what I mean if you think only those who think like that think like that man so yeah there it is check us out. bfa.com subscribe like comment share all that on the bigf network salute salute	or whatever and they thought that she was trying to be funny or like but it was funny though it was funny though I can't C like my MMA was funny as hell though like rip she was funny as hell she Ain what she'll say anything out M like a like a child worse like a adult that know better but still say some [ __ ] like like for real like your homeboy might come over there she might just look at your homeboy and say some [ __ ] like I bet your dick little out of nowhere real [ __ ] where you from originally originally I was born in tusi Alabama I was born in my grandma house 46 yeah I went to school down there oh you did yeah they told you with the locals oh I'm cool with a couple of them shouts the street of Frank Walkin some of them so was your daddy a part of the experiment that they did down there no uh no my dad U he was from Chicago so he had came later but yeah Tusk experiments like a lot of my family members and [ __ ] was affected by that like d yeah did they ever give them reparations for that I think they just now I think they just yeah yeah they did yeah they did yeah they they got reparation for it but it was only like a small group of them	6	4	2	or whatever and they thought that she was trying to be funny or like but it was funny though it was funny though I can't C like my MMA was funny as hell though like rip she was funny as hell she Ain what she'll say anything out M like a like a child worse like a adult that know better but still say some [ __ ] like like for real like your homeboy might come over there she might just look at your homeboy and say some [ __ ] like I bet your dick little out of nowhere real [ __ ]	where you from originally	7,8,5	0,1,2	7	8	5	0	1	2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-Xsjx4VTfU	4,038	q-Xsjx4VTfU	2024-06-27 00:00:00	[Music] this is big fact Network [Music] exclusive live from the culture lab it's time for big facts big bank is here baby Jade is here DJ Scream is here we're welcoming today a comedian that's very funny you see him online give it up for scam lightly on big facts what's up what's up what's up bro you good man yeah man I have made it man so what you say you scam your way on the big F tell tell us how you got on big F I want to hear the whole story yeah so look man I got damn I had hit bank account but goddamn Bank was so cool about we worked some [ __ ] out and then goam you know I mean I owe them so so this a transaction yeah this transaction I just [ __ ] with you no man for real like shout out my manager uh y sh man brother and you know I mean we been had linked up like I came and did skit on y'all um on the podcast what that was like about a year ago yeah so U man just kept working kept grinding and boom back here so is your Origins comedy or what was you doing before that no I was in some whole other [ __ ] some whole other [ __ ] you can talk about or you can't talk about I can't allegedly I say allegedly but now for real I was like uh I was um in the streets just like I ain't G to say everybody else but pretty much you know I demographic I came from the same [ __ ] PIV it and I was always doing I was always like stupid my whole life I can say that I was slow I was slow so I been I've been should have step in comedy but I kind of running from it you know what I mean cuz I Ain I ain't I was I wasn't in no position to be laughed at at the time so when I finally took it serious sat down two months that [ __ ] was out of here at what point did you know you was funny man since I was little I ain't gonna lie like I said I always been a CL clown I always been a [ __ ] roast and always I I I had to fight [ __ ] I roast so good you know what I mean so I always had that aspect to me so I just when I really took it serious like man I'm going to do this comedy [ __ ] like full-fledged nothing else I'm sit down and do it like I said that sh was out of here but I I will say like I I do feel like it chose me instead of me choosing it you know I mean do you think it's important to be able to do like other other types of comedies like AC in the movie Stand Up and all that type of stuff too or or or or is it if you're a one lane type of comedian is that cool in your opinion I I mean I feel like whatever you comfortable with see what I'm saying because a lot of people ain't comfortable with that stage you know I mean I didn't did all of it so like I don't know like for me I didn't get all of it you know I mean but for everybody I like stand up ain't for everybody you know I mean that [ __ ] a whole different monster you know I me why you say that because it's like like it's [ __ ] that you got to know like you got to know time you know I mean you got to know punch lines you got to know how to build a joke up you know you got to sit traps type [ __ ] I mean so it's like an art front for like it's actually some people that probably ain't even funny in real life but they comedians you see what I'm saying cuz they just know the art of telling jokes ver being just naturally funny like you might be naturally funny and get on stage and can't you that's true just how some of these rap [ __ ] be lying boom same way but they sound good exactly that [ __ ] sound good [ __ ] make [ __ ] sound good you go get some money yeah how it go what's the inspiration for your skits uh cuz a lot of it seem like day-to-day just man really just like life and um me like because and I say that because [ __ ] I'm damn near like a psych patient like you know I mean my mama was a paranoid schizophrenic so I come from like my mind be racing so this [ __ ] like therapy for me I just get to get out [ __ ] that's just in my mind all day which is some stupid [ __ ] that I just be thinking about so now I get to relay that on on on camera so let me answer this so just going back to what you said about your mom how was it growing up in a household with somebody that was battling mental illness like that uh definitely a struggle definitely definitely a struggle like uh I want to say my mom probably was your dad there yeah yeah actually my dad raised me like um okay RP my dad um he actually like like when they split my dad took me so I ra with my dad you know what I mean like okay and and he was a old man like my dad was born 1929 he was in World War II real [ __ ] on God everything my dad born in 1929 [ __ ] in World War II so I so so I be having more on God how how old was your daddy when he had you he had me he was like 50 something okay that that add up yeah yeah yeah okay yeah I'm talking about dead that [ __ ] was in World War II so so he put certain mors and [ __ ] in a [ __ ] that I know people ain't even got no more you know what I mean so that's why people be thinking I sound how I do because you know what I mean like I was raised with a Elder you know I mean that [ __ ] was a real Elder you see what I'm saying so with him he was like the um coherent parent of the group you see what I'm saying my mama was wild Young illness type [ __ ] so my daddy was like the one that took us and raised us you see what I'm saying but growing up in the house with that [ __ ] yeah that [ __ ] was a struggle I think that's why I get my comedic comedic side front cuz my mama she Ain have no fut she'll say anything to anybody at any time and like people didn't know she was you know I mean she was like she had the illness or whatever and they thought that she was trying to be funny or like but it was funny though it was funny though I can't C like my MMA was funny as hell though like rip she was funny as hell she Ain what she'll say anything out M like a like a child worse like a adult that know better but still say some [ __ ] like like for real like your homeboy might come over there she might just look at your homeboy and say some [ __ ] like I bet your dick little out of nowhere real [ __ ] where you from originally originally I was born in tusi Alabama I was born in my grandma house 46 yeah I went to school down there oh you did yeah they told you with the locals oh I'm cool with a couple of them shouts the street of Frank Walkin some of them so was your daddy a part of the experiment that they did down there no uh no my dad U he was from Chicago so he had came later but yeah Tusk experiments like a lot of my family members and [ __ ] was affected by that like d yeah did they ever give them reparations for that I think they just now I think they just yeah yeah they did yeah they did yeah they they got reparation for it but it was only like a small group of them left by time they did get to him what you think about this [ __ ] cat you watch that cat we [ __ ] yeah hell what you think about that I think it's a lot of truth to it like I don't know I don't know them folk person I don't want to say too much cuz godamn I ain't trying to get black ball before I get I just talking [ __ ] but now I I I definitely I see that [ __ ] here like you know I mean it's like a you know kind of like a little pecking order gatekeeping type [ __ ] like people gatekeep in all rounds no matter how big small so I think every city got that [ __ ] and then you get to the industry they got their own Gatekeepers so or you feel like they be trying to hold [ __ ] out you think you think that's possible yeah well I ain't going to say it I I think if you weak if you weak it'll stop you like [ __ ] like you know what I mean if you don't say [ __ ] I'm make it anyway know I mean it can scare you off and you just like I seen some with um the Wayne brother he was like somebody said something to him and he start doing stand up for like 10 years so that [ __ ] can really you know what I mean shake you in the wrong way you the whole body if you let it you know I mean but I feel like if you're a [ __ ] that come from nothing I truly feel like what's for you is for you though that's true I don't know it might be harder for you I don't feel like no n can keep you out yeah it might keep you out of they Circle yeah that's what said they situation yeah but this [ __ ] too big man you can make a way man I be [ __ ] excuses I feel but I I I feel the way you feel but I also feel like if the right [ __ ] sprays your name then it's going to be I don't want to say next to Impossible but it can be super [ __ ] overly extremely difficult in mostu but it's it's it still B down to B down to how hard you go look at the [ __ ] that they do spray the [ __ ] going hard about this [ __ ] man yeah but [ __ ] look how I look that's true look look at the [ __ ] who it's a it's a it's a lot of casual to that [ __ ] what I'm saying it's a lot of casualty to that [ __ ] because I feel like you laid down at the end of the day that's true that what I said what I said like if you weak you going to fold you going to fold in on yourself that [ __ ] really be mental like if somebody get in your head and you don't get that [ __ ] out Bo like [ __ ] what's the [ __ ] name B Simon that [ __ ] went what number one FK got in that [ __ ] head he Ain like performing to his best n they ain't getting they ain't getting his head he want it he W it he W it yeah sometimes CU I I don't really know a lot about that [ __ ] I just know R talked about him in the song he said like Ben Timmons I ain't going nowhere or something yeah he had a hell of a agent he had a hell of a agent they giving him money based on what they thought he might be able to do what I'm saying he ain't never do it though but the [ __ ] it paid him based off of his potential exactly but he got man he got gunshot BR the man wouldn't even shoot the basketball man that's in your head he wouldn't even take a shot n he ain't shoo bro cuz he wasn't going to make it man he didn't shoot it he could he could he didn't even drive I'm just saying if okay let's take Ben Simmons maybe I'm being in a homer and let's take Ant-Man all right Antman shoot that's what I was saying last night what I said what I said if you weak I'm saying like he mentally KN up it's you right I see what you say you say take the shot forget that like an is from the west side that dog I know to do matter [ __ ] lay down everywhere it's a [ __ ] laying down on every side of town same how you name one [ __ ] that stood up I bet we can a fire [ __ ] that done laid down laid down [ __ ] [ __ ] up Z they ain't do nothing to Zion he did it to himself I mean who Z the big dude who be smashing the porn or whatever Zion Williamson the boy can jump though like boy can jump yeah you getting paid to jump jumping don't win championships and games but it's early too though early super early he got he got a minute man he still got he got time to like when did he get signed once you he been in the league six years that ain't ear I been in about six years yeah I'm thinking like three n he been playing hurt two of them oh yeah that's what it is that's that's what it is that's is my opinion when when it comes to like the athlete [ __ ] some people just ain't got it but that's what I'm saying like people I think a lot of people put emphasis on it like that [ __ ] just everywhere that [ __ ] ain't that [ __ ] real rare but if but if you're not it and then on top of that you don't have self-esteem then like you're going you're going to flop every time you going to f in on yourself like you going to be your worst enemy you going to godamn you're going to implode facts hey what what a character scam come from man this [ __ ] so crazy so the the interview that future did with Kevin Sam I watched that interview I like well that [ __ ] don't give a [ __ ] about [ __ ] just just his demeanor how he was just like yeah I me a [ __ ] by like I like but this [ __ ] just so nonchalant so I was like damn what if the scammer was like that like [ __ ] just pull all kind of moves don't give a [ __ ] about the consequences so and it's crazy I watched I I the interview was on TV and I just like hey I want to shoot a skit by the Atlanta scammer and then in like 10 minutes I just he like he need a name I was like [ __ ] scam like Le oh like scam likely I'm like no not likely but like Le like l e e so I just ran with that [ __ ] and that [ __ ] just stuck so hard that people like people don't even call me by my name they just call me scam introdu you fact so I like [ __ ] scam so I just ran with it man and that [ __ ] just naturally like took off because I feel like you know that's what we living in anyway what you think about SC game I mean [ __ ] is though you go with your move like you had if it made sense yeah yeah [ __ ] me too if it made sense like I feel like I did everything it is to do in the streets like everything like a [ __ ] that played all positions in that [ __ ] I had been a fake ass little pimp before godamn s everything it is I did everything so [ __ ] why not riding around that man we was making no money man but that [ __ ] him [ __ ] the hard [ __ ] listen [ __ ] listen sh but then the crazy thing is just talking to them folk like when you talk like real PE and [ __ ] they be like you got to coach the [ __ ] talk I ain't got the patience to keep talking to no [ __ ] about some [ __ ] just keep on telling you some [ __ ] that you should know [ __ ] that I go get me some drugs or something baby this [ __ ] slow oh when with that turning point though huh like the Turn Point like man I'm just feel cuz you always legit now right yo for sure why he looking around I won't be on big face for real no I am though we in the turtle what it was though like you know [ __ ] I ain't going to lie but you know the pandemic had [ __ ] boom [ __ ] was eating good like you know I mean so I had enough money to where I was like damn I can kind of ease up off this you know I mean this [ __ ] cuz at first like I said I I never wanted to do comedy because of that like I mean I was dealing with [ __ ] in the street I ain't really want no [ __ ] to feel like I was no funny [ __ ] you know what I mean when you dealing with certain amount of money so once I once I felt like I made enough money then I was like [ __ ] I can kind of start doing comedy like you know doing my skits and [ __ ] so like I said I had sat down like um my turning my main turning point though was and this is trueu I had went to Miami for new years and [ __ ] so I had on took a I thought was edible so I ate a edible but I don't know what for issue was like it it had to be like strs or something yeah cuz boy I had the worst trip of my life [ __ ] like I'm I'm I'm zooed you know you you know when you get too high you think you about to die and [ __ ] that's what I was on I'm like well I'm I'm G I'm out of here so so I walk to the gas station to get some milk drunk drunk drunk a gallon of milk that man that [ __ ] only wors when you swallow dope no no that milk workk any natural high and that milk work that sh why the [ __ ] y'all ain't G me milk that day I was TR to die want to see it you milk what you talking about let no El kill you bro you just tripping but that how that [ __ ] had me that [ __ ] do that [ __ ] take you to a psychedelic listen boy that [ __ ] had listen I swear to God on everything I got back to the room after drinking the milk [ __ ] I lay on the bed I'm like I'm going to die I just Clos my eyes I'm in the universe I'm just in the universe like but I can see my body on the bed with my ey closed I owe my eyes I'm back in the room close my eyes I'm in the universe so I start seeing myself on stage with a microphone like that was astro Projection what when you had that where you supposed to be at though that's what I was saying like but I think what it is though I think it's it's like a unified Feld and you see all the possibilities that you can be right so that was me in the future looking back at me like see what I'm saying even with Dreams yeah exactly like [ __ ] was telling me come on like do what we on so I'm like man I'm going to do this [ __ ] then I got back to Atlanta boy my cousin was standing with him but [ __ ] tow tow a hole in my head thing gone you yeah why part me empty [ __ ] gone all [ __ ] gone you know I mean see make sense yeah I see see yeah we CH we chopped up and [ __ ] y chopped it up yeah I mean you was just like no regular chop up like you know I mean but you know I mean like like what what the excuse was why he broke in your [ __ ] no I say he was standing [ __ ] that [ __ ] a break in that [ __ ] lit there I'm saying where the excuse was taking out with the [ __ ] uh I don't even remember so about like he probably felt like I owed him or some [ __ ] yeah but it probably wasn't that you know what I mean but like he was staying with you and you owed him it be like that sometime the [ __ ] kind of [ __ ] but but you just know like you know I mean like [ __ ] was just getting out the fed you know [ __ ] PTSD like you know what I mean home to steep so you know what I mean home you doing stand up yeah yeah I didn't I didn't did stand up I did step away from it though cuz like I said it's it's so much politics and that [ __ ] and that [ __ ] ain't paying nothing they think it ain't paying nothing I got a little something for you want do [ __ ] show yeah we September I when is it April May damn that's May May 4th Saturday May 4 okay you know I got I gota get back on stage that [ __ ] A that [ __ ] ain't just like no just you know I mean that [ __ ] real real you got to get back up St you just got to get in your bag right yeah yeah but but it's like like I said like it's about time so like that's why you do it every night so you can got damn sharpen your your skills no we had um we had my man on here man don't you you got to get you gotta got damn we just had Henry up here right oh yeah yeah Henry my boy yeah Henry said the same [ __ ] like you got to exercise [ __ ] going and 100 50 people rooms 25 people in the room you still gota go work your material even if you comeing in [ __ ] working on us yeah for real people you got to work that material bro if a n GNA do this [ __ ] n gota do it all the way no but see that's what I was saying like so I noticed like if you try to do that and the content one of them going to suffer see what I'm saying so why you say that because like the amount of time that you got to take like like [ __ ] what's her name did it country Wayne did it but he he I'm saying like them [ __ ] beat but but what I'm saying like once they did one of them surer I ain't going to say like the quality of the content serer but the amount that you putting out going to go down you got to balance it at that point you got to balance it yeah I know it but I'm saying like far as like especially like now because [ __ ] gate you see what I'm saying so it's still like I ain't like [ __ ] don't like internet comedians for real that I to say really respect yeah exactly like you get chance pause edit you get a chance do all that [ __ ] want that [ __ ] on the spot but but it's the thing though it's like she like they it's kind of like the old mindset like how [ __ ] was Pass Out CD ain't no more CD so [ __ ] don't know how to transition you see what I'm saying so it's kind of like that like they be want you to just only do stand up rooms and [ __ ] but it's like I got the internet why would I go touch a whole another see what I'm saying like you can reach way more still though them [ __ ] but [ __ ] Ain't Going [ __ ] [ __ ] don't really internet comedian oh but iig who like being the trench you know what I'm saying the people do like I love it yeah but I'm saying like comedians who gotdamn know where they got it from gotam getting them $20 nights godamn [ __ ] [ __ ] that got a drink you know saying [ __ ] get a [ __ ] [ __ ] like them nigg feel like they got it out the mud but that's still like a yeah [ __ ] up um perspective but I get it you know what I'm saying for what they feel like what they put in every comedian should put in but [ __ ] something it's the luck of the [ __ ] gu what I got this [ __ ] out the mud too I got this [ __ ] with a phone and a goddamn ring light a cheat one at that godamn exactly you know I mean cord breaking off that [ __ ] I had to wire that b back together put some tape around it so it's the same [ __ ] it's just like I said it's people perspective like you know what I mean and me honestly I ain't going to give a [ __ ] what another [ __ ] think about me like [ __ ] I ain't in it to be you know I mean I mean do you feel do you feel sometime like man yeah I need I need to goam go and get in that I need to go on and Mer that part so then let them know I can do it do you ever ever get but I did I ain't going to lie I did you see what I'm saying like I performed at a you know what I mean like a at a high stage what you know I mean [ __ ] some big dogs from the city like boy you got it know I mean it just like I said that [ __ ] wasn't making no sense for me and it's taking away from some [ __ ] that do make money so what I'm saying like I'm making money on Instagram and Facebook and [ __ ] like that so I'm making way more money than I would be trying to do taking a risk anything $200 [ __ ] you got to get into it with anything n that [ __ ] your security none of that [ __ ] yeah that [ __ ] A you been spank the [ __ ] on camera for what hell cuz the nigg [ __ ] G they move yeah cuz I ain't going to think I'm black out a whole another side be like oh n that [ __ ] don't even want that turn the big to workout what it name big Q got turn the big Q onig ass yeah I don't even want to play n but you get what I'm saying though yeah that [ __ ] that that don't make sense to be cuz I went gotam I would just say if I I want to be a rapper right there I would do my [ __ ] online I wouldn't be at no open mics that [ __ ] dangerous yeah what I'm saying like [ __ ] like like you not going to gain no fans from that [ __ ] like I had a homeboy yes you are no you yes you are fans from what okay from from like open m stand up talk open mik rapping or you talking about stand up comedian stand up comedian I'm saying you make no money off no you might not make no money off of it but you like people will put your name with your face and it'll like help increase your family I agree that but well you got to get on the internet the internet no the internet is definitely over it but I'm saying touching the people is is going to make a difference also but most of the people outside [ __ ] but then what I say though like other crew y'all rapping my bad J y'all rapping other crew other open mic and you f then we got to get into it cuz you f yeah how this [ __ ] go comedian comedian okay we on the same show together [ __ ] mad at me cuz I just was funny as hell y that'll get you [ __ ] up real talk like cuz then they ain't going to want to put you on their show you see what I'm saying because every like I feel like most comedians everybody want to feel like the funnyest [ __ ] in the room just like okay a artist right let's say if two artists in the room and one get to playing his music the other [ __ ] going to get be ready for him to cut him music off so he can play his [ __ ] like come on man r that [ __ ] up so I can play my [ __ ] my [ __ ] F like your [ __ ] cool but my [ __ ] so it's the same thing you know mean it's the same [ __ ] and doing open mics [ __ ] steal your jokes I had a [ __ ] steal my whole [ __ ] and do the [ __ ] the next day because I was like I ain't know you see what I'm saying so they we was talking about that yeah so they'll tell you like don't do open mics and comedy cuz writers and [ __ ] be in the crowd to Ste [ __ ] jokes remix so it's a conspiracy yeah GNA remix your [ __ ] yeah like he ain't going nowh with that he funny I see what he Tred to do I'm show how to do it like your delivery or something might be off what I'm saying you how to do you a real funny ass [ __ ] get your [ __ ] too fast I know how to do it I know how to perform the joke better than and then boom got some of they [ __ ] with your [ __ ] that [ __ ] is that [ __ ] out of here TV so it just this [ __ ] just like I said sh just like a rap game you had to skit one time about like dating in Atlanta and [ __ ] what's your like what's your take on dating in Atlanta man have fun God damn don't take nothing serious like this [ __ ] ain't serious out here for real what you mean I feel like this [ __ ] a big ass high school for real I mean like Atlanta man I I would me personally I wouldn't like for love and no [ __ ] out here like for real like I feel like if you ain't already got it like new generation New Age day this [ __ ] over with like if you ain't already got love and marriage and wife and all that [ __ ] over with in Atlanta as of today it's a rap what you saying in a certain age group or just period or just period because everybody mind mind frames have change you see what I'm saying everybody mind is right now she it's okay to hurt whoever is long as is you happy like everybody feel like everything Justified as long as I'm looking out for me and I'm happy then she it's whatever it's cold real you saying no no consideration for nobody nobody if you look at everything everybody talking about online and all the toxicity [ __ ] everybody really just out for self and it's okay like like everybody promoe it's okay to be for yourself like no team ball no nothing I ain't going to lie I I help a lot of people though but I I I I've been on that lately like [ __ ] that I got to figure me out cuz that's the way the world live bro yeah but that's what I'm saying saying that the way the world live like whoever with me like this [ __ ] we doing yeah yeah this me figuring me out I can't worry about goddamn going play goddamn tennis yeah you know what I'm saying cuz my my buddy want to play tennis all day ain't no money in tennis bro for me I need to be right here doing this [ __ ] so I got to do what serve me I don't I don't knock that so that's why that's why I'm saying like the D SC sh like that like [ __ ] ain't nobody really going to stick it out with no [ __ ] till it's too late you see what I'm saying like that's how I feel anyway from my experience and your ass ain't lit ain't got nothing for you so you saying like the ho going anyway going gone they gone get the elevator with that SM that B that b he don't know what you say oh yeah really that that Clyde Christian but you know what I mean CDE be G out of here what's that come on what floor you stay on oh seven whole time [ __ ] paying for the [ __ ] all kind of [ __ ] tricky you don't think it's a circle though I think you don't think it's the circle like it's like that circle of people he right see see see you you speaking from where you at he's saying like outside the circle is different though but I but but this the thing I say with men it might be you see what I'm saying like for the for the men that's outside that Circle they don't know what we talking about see what I'm saying they don't but all the women know because they all going to get brought into that Circle see what I'm saying all women been out somewhere and a [ __ ] didn't caught they ey [ __ ] with some money and they gone they gone cuz Atlanta like Atlanta like people it's a wom that it's a wom that be it's a women that be up in Chastain Park at some [ __ ] Neil Soul jazz [ __ ] that be out the way yeah you talking about a different Circle CC you talking about the hook you talking about the Hooka Circle no uh I'm talking about all walk the [ __ ] is the hookah Circle CC the hookah lounges and [ __ ] n I'm talking about all no but I mean it's it's people like it's people that go to the hookah lounges the hookah Circle or whatever they got their own money that's not giv a Fu about what another [ __ ] got but it's not that it's not also just about money see that's what like I ain't saying like what it is SC it's just that stuff on like it's just that stuff like you know certain people got that stuff right so what I'm saying is like and the reason why I say that the reason why I say that because I I watched like when I was a young [ __ ] my partner this [ __ ] had everything this [ __ ] uh drop head godamn benty truck all this [ __ ] I done watch every type of woman from every type of Walk of Life come in the [ __ ] spot and he tell them folks straight up the [ __ ] make Ann hey look you ain't going to suck like at the end of night you can get up and get the [ __ ] out and I Ain never see not one woman get up and leave like got me [ __ ] up and I seen the [ __ ] with doctors lawyers them them so-called Neo Soul [ __ ] I ain't never seen not one of them get up and say no [ __ ] up never by them folks oh now you put yourself in that position now what he saying is listen it's hoes everywhere yeah I'm talk about scientist nurse doctor D judges whatever hoes women going to be women some of them but what he's saying is he's saying the on they don't even allow theyel to pull up on bro that's what I'm saying cuz we talk it don't matter what walk a life it's still a select few women she can be outside and still won't pull up on you I know some [ __ ] who ain't going I know a lot of them going but some of them ain't going but see that's a lot of them that ain't going some of them ain't going I'mma keep it 100 he take that right [ __ ] but some of still but okay what what you said take cuz we all know son like damn ain't nobody like everybody compar like but you ain't nobody [ __ ] who we know [ __ ] nobody but like you said you said take that right [ __ ] right now knowing how competitive Atlanta is you don't think that [ __ ] somewh in the crowd know he in the crowd but the thing about it is she know that but it like I a listen listen I'm going to V with some of them CU I know some of them bro just because and that's then the one to elevate too yes like we like it's it's like going every circle of [ __ ] all my budy is sniper diapers yeah so we going to know who done smashed her like what about her like [ __ ] send your picture around yeah that what [ __ ] do like who this is if I DM you a girl you know what that mean who this is yeah oh that oh that you send that [ __ ] around to the [ __ ] who already who making them announcements tell them to all them [ __ ] who make them announcements they going to come back and be like I don't know her I don't know her I don't know her I don't know her she good she might be that over there in the other crowd now with what you saying go ahead but but see that's what I'm saying I'm not saying like all cuz it's impossible to say all of course of course it's a couple most yeah of course it's a couple Butterfly by The hornest Nest but [ __ ] [ __ ] I ain't going to stand by and let the [ __ ] sting me I'm getting the [ __ ] on [ __ ] them butterflies you see what I'm saying so that's all I'm saying like yeah [ __ ] can't it's hard to deci what I said on Instagram standing beside them it's hard to deci which one is which so and I like man and this thing I think think Atlanta is kind of like this [ __ ] [ __ ] you up this [ __ ] [ __ ] you up cuz it's just like the Lifey like man ain't no I ain't really seen no place like Atlanta like this [ __ ] really is the mecca of like Black Culture to me you know what I mean like I feel like [ __ ] Atlanta is like Legend like even if you just staying in Atlanta right now this [ __ ] Legend like this a legend this a legendary City so the [ __ ] that go on here it go on everywhere like that you know what I mean so it's just the the level of competition and you got you you got to be a dog to be out this [ __ ] for real yeah yeah you got to be you got to have some real dog in you for real and most and most people ain't got I ain't going to say most [ __ ] most about people that's outside but now I'm talking about even the [ __ ] working 9 to5 that don't even go nowhere and [ __ ] they can't even keep up like but you know that [ __ ] ain't but a job and and paying bill you G have to do some you GNA have to do something something he ain't gonna be able to just work come home pay bills and be straight unless your ass stay somewhere in caning or something but down here oh no we close to the city but your ass through so you think you ever lock in like on some relationship [ __ ] man I have goddamn go somewhere else not in that like how I used to be seen so much you Tain yeah there's always exception that can't I believe exceptions to the rule I don't know bro I didn't had a [ __ ] in the bed we finished and it be like you just made me commit adultery I'm like what wait what I didn't know you was married damn yeah that a know what I'm saying like a boy say that to everybody so that [ __ ] hit different like damn B that [ __ ] crazy it could be just bad in small towns though they just more sneaky and quiet going I trust that because I know Atlanta exists see what I'm saying so you ain't being brought to Atlanta and tested then you don't know see what I'm saying like she might just be like that she ain't got the opportunity see you ain't got no opportunity to be no hope everybody your daddy the preacher everybody know you in town so you Ain had no opportunity to be no hope bring her to Atlanta unleash her and then she got what she TV see see sh you see on TV right there like right there magic and [ __ ] will try you like nigg be like come here [ __ ] [ __ ] who you would never thought tell you come here tell you come here come here it going to [ __ ] you up it's going to blow your mind man I didn't seen that [ __ ] but that [ __ ] and I tell [ __ ] like man don't bring your girl up here dog don't bring your girl over here man if you if you coming from my of town you come man leave don't bring your old lady man try to move up it with her but none of that [ __ ] dead she just can't do this no more none of they can't do this no more it's too hard I think you should you think bring your girl to Atlanta you going to lock all the way in you need to know what you locking in with yeah they do it us us a woman a woman a woman will bring you around all her badass friends to see what you on yeah they do that [ __ ] to us yeah yeah yeah yeah I go yeah so expose her take her to uh you break around your don't take a center with a friends y'all go have fun n but look you take around your R po but get the poping all that sh man sh going to be in the air like this here over with what facts like they'll come back cuz a lot like I don't really know him like that anyway tell I don't really know I met him for real what we've been together two years it ain't that serious we do that take your serious like like I telling about my buddy right P who had had the bag listen man like you might be [ __ ] that really like me they might think I'm handsome but they not coming home with me but at the end of the night like if if shl say hey what's up they over with yeah I had to respect it I had like okay [ __ ] it I got to get on my grind like I ain't mad that is how the game is right now oh you got the [ __ ] you you got the [ __ ] over there with the looks his buddy got there went here he got bag put him in the pot up for you I had like I had like a oldale rain roll buty got a new bit truck baby go go with him I'm go go go with him go go [ __ ] I see you going I see you going I see you going and I ain't mad cuz I understand the game gu what I'mma have my turn and when I have my turn I don't want none of the old ho that already been [ __ ] up [ __ ] they gonna be all of them no but it's some new [ __ ] coming out the [ __ ] every day oh man it's some [ __ ] coming out the [ __ ] every day brand new don't even know what's out here yeah Michael cor Pur she Michel Michael cor Bel she cool I want to hold bottles I see they they uhuh they already know I already know they know what to buy yeah they know how person ah n i buy my cor coach i d by some Reb classes what you oh man Dam n that [ __ ] that [ __ ] real man sad reality it's Savage out here man like the wor listen man then the raapers don't [ __ ] [ __ ] man if you [ __ ] really bad man it's old we so it's really bad for real like really bad oh it's over with she might have some morals man n this [ __ ] like draing them and DM your girl just a space like put space in send it blank bubble you know what that mean this in the location [ __ ] man [ __ ] send your [ __ ] that big ass air Drake plane facts don't bring nothing they going to pick you up wherever you was standing there stand right there leave everything they going to pick you up to pick you up don't move they to pick you up in some [ __ ] take you to the helicopter helicopter to edate fly your ass to somewhere you never seen before bro you gone that would worth that whole relationship B care man this [ __ ] crazy bro was the [ __ ] true about how how the [ __ ] um how Drake had this sing out there with with her husband he sent the [ __ ] home man it was a story like it was a singer that he was like trying to I guess sign or some [ __ ] he flew her in her husband out and then like for a week or some [ __ ] and then like the last couple days sent the husband home man he [ __ ] cold I just when you about I just said my [ __ ] Joel Silver right shout out was movie producer Big Boy producer he told me a story one time I'm tell B [ __ ] it he said he said his wife when he first seen his wife she was married he told her I'mma marry you but him her and him her and her husband work for him he sent this [ __ ] on a movie for six months in a whole another state and kept the [ __ ] with him and bar I'm telling you bro well not the [ __ ] his wife but I'm just saying it's just like bro it's over with it's over with some [ __ ] what they want they can get if [ __ ] up to say that but did you see what I'm saying cuz [ __ ] put in the full work you better not be slipping a inch like a inch some you better have a slip of an inch and to see if he I'm telling you bro this [ __ ] [ __ ] up and women are cold some women I'm not I'm not um generalized I'm just saying some women are cold BR it'll be like they never knew you yeah for real [ __ ] act like she never even knew your name like you don't exist like how many times you see women do that like men can't really do that like [ __ ] with you I [ __ ] with you no matter what I'm always [ __ ] with this [ __ ] I [ __ ] with her how [ __ ] is [ __ ] be invested yeah [ __ ] be like I [ __ ] with women when they boy this [ __ ] I don't know him and be de serious like I don't know him they don't convince theirself that they don't know you oh man especially especially if it's a [ __ ] around that got some [ __ ] going on but them f w look your way boy but I feel like I feel like for a female to act like she doesn't know a [ __ ] that she wants loved it had to be something that happened but look listen I feel always going to be done happen [ __ ] going to be [ __ ] wom always got a chance to justify their action because something happened we in this [ __ ] or we in this [ __ ] but what's crazy no but what I'm saying is like Mo nine times out of 10 if if a [ __ ] is really in love with a [ __ ] like for real for real like they going to get into it they going to fall out she going to say [ __ ] him a million times but if she really loves this [ __ ] she's G to love this [ __ ] forever but if it's some [ __ ] that like some unfor a lot of women I've been hearing this [ __ ] lately a lot of women be kicking at I can learn the love a [ __ ] and they never be unlearned truly till you see some [ __ ] you really love you thought you was in love that's what most the [ __ ] most the women do they be delusional some some way like they like I heard three women say that like recently I thought I was going to learn to love him it's conveyance versus love too though I think some women men probably too whatever get convenience [ __ ] up with love yeah they they enter into the relationship with potential and they enter the relationship with uh what it could be not what it is like I can't deal with you if it ain't what it is right then like it have to be that I can't potentially feel like that and saying that I love you and knowing you trying to we trying to fall in love we trying to do hell no I can't potentially I can't fake that but if you but okay so let me ask you this then if you don't to some degree fall in love with potential then that's D how how does your how does your love get tested in order for you to be able to know whether or not you can grow with this person that's what I'm saying so it ain't it listen on one thing about it hold up scam one thing about it when a [ __ ] your person you know what it is cuzz you can't it's just something about you know when you love a person you know when you want to love a person you know when I like her a lot but you know if a [ __ ] jump out the bush with a stick you ain't F to try to tote this [ __ ] like I'mma tote my [ __ ] like man hey I'm jump in front you don't think that's that's that's the test would you die [ __ ] jump out shooter stick is you going is you going to try to c shei a [ __ ] around run but but this disconnect I had real [ __ ] though that the truth but this a disconnect though this disconnect because she's thinking like a woman that's how women like women date potential a [ __ ] going to like what he see instantly like if I like you I [ __ ] like you like if a [ __ ] say Hey you my girl we already the God damn but but if but if you like me just based off of what you see then no he saying not see you observing her not the look fact the outer when I see you I see you I don't see what you look like on the outside that's why I tell my wife hey don't ask me unbiased whatever you do going I'm going like it don't ask me if I like it don't ask me if nothing I like you so I don't give a [ __ ] what it is that [ __ ] look good you know what I'm saying so that's just what it is so I can't don't ask me on bias so we don't see potential and [ __ ] yeah we see you you yeah like if I like how you make me feel I feel that if a [ __ ] say if a [ __ ] commit like cuz I don't know like it's hard as [ __ ] for me to say I want to commit cuz if feels like I'm giving up some [ __ ] like so I feel like no no man truly wants to commit but if he find a woman that he feel like man shout shout it shout it worth of everything shout it it like then of course he's going to commit but it's not no easy [ __ ] that [ __ ] just want to do like [ __ ] Ain't just running out here to commit you see what I'm saying like [ __ ] don't want to commit H understand but a [ __ ] will if you find something that you feel like worth like I ain't going to find nothing else like sh like she one of a lifetime I ain't going to find nothing else like her so we ain't looking at her potential cuz sh you could have a a a [ __ ] pot piss in a want throw out of her [ __ ] going godamn hop down on a woman but a woman ain't just going to [ __ ] with no broke straight broke ass no car no house no n [ __ ] she's off the bat they ain't going to do that but gu what man that [ __ ] rare that [ __ ] better have a foot long a foot long goddamn she going to have something that she want he ain't going to just be it going to be something going to be something now that's what I'm saying because a lot of like well not a lot but some some some men are able to and I've seen this happen a million times before some men are able to hide or like finesse the fact that they lack some of the most essential things and then by the time by the time you understand that you've been been Boozled you know what I'm saying like it's too late you already got for you think that [ __ ] been spending the night that [ __ ] really be got there sleeping but see that but but listen one by one but see putting a pair of shoes every day but but this my thing right see women cuz people agree that like women are smarter than men right nah n I'm saying like book smart like right I'm just saying like educational wise I feel like women got more intuition than men I feel like women are more emotionally int I'mma tell you let me say this right quick before I say this I'mma tell you what men do bro and I'm go and give it up [ __ ] hate when they girl be right bro you that [ __ ] that's the only thing piss us off what pissed me off is a [ __ ] can make up something in their head and be right like how you guess that you gu right so wom got superp power now like that why I be trying to tell her like you right about a lot of that [ __ ] but some of that [ __ ] you making up so I ain't going to let you know when you're making it up I ain't going to let you know when you're right you know what I'm saying but you be right though this [ __ ] be like God but this my thing right women know what they be talking about but this my thing right what I'm saying if women are smarter than men so to speak and they believe this right you believe women smarter men I mean yeah okay so then how you get manipulated how you getting tricked then how you don't know a [ __ ] got two pair of jeans how you how you don't know yeah how you don't know that how you don't know a [ __ ] got two pair of jeans I feel like I feel like some women want to believe in the best of a [ __ ] that a [ __ ] might have another pair of jeans somewhere you know what I'm saying like but you only seeing two see I'm saying that what I'm saying like men are more L but but but the women the woman might think that the [ __ ] might not want to expose his hand right away so the two pair is what he's showing to test the water to see if it makes sense to expose the third pair see that's delusion cuz guess what you ain't never been around no rich [ __ ] that just wear two pair of jeans the [ __ ] that really got it they coming out with all this [ __ ] on especially if they like you and they trying to get you they ain't hiding nothing they putting everything on the table CU they trying to get you so a [ __ ] only let me test her with these two jeans come on you know this niggaer ain't got nothing you know it but in your mind you want to believe like I'm making get a good decision even though you know it's some [ __ ] like this [ __ ] ain't got nothing but in your mind you want to make yourself believe that he tricked me he got me he got over on me cuz you know women know man just like you said just like Bank said women got intuition you can't tell that this [ __ ] ain't got nothing yo you ain't know your baby daddy was broke before you had babies with him then you a had one with him you had another one with him yeah that [ __ ] be kind of hard like how can you say you got trick it's just hard to say you got yeah that [ __ ] when women turn into repeat offenders excuse that's excuse you know you know that's what you attract you know what I'm saying and and and and and and and no I just feel like women do make up a lot of [ __ ] in their head but how do you feel about when people say that you like what you like exactly so except that's what you like yeah and stop trying to change [ __ ] [ __ ] you don't like cuz listen bro I'm tell you bro I know like if I was to try to be anybody else but me I probably get a divorce like I'm me but I'm I mean I'm different but I'm me if that make sense what I'm saying like I'm totally different but I'm me like the mors and and [ __ ] that just boy don't do that don't say that and all that that's that's centic you get what I'm saying but I'm me so just imagine if I tried to be somebody else I don't think I would I don't think I don't think she'll go for it even though what me gets on [ __ ] nerd but I try to be something else it ain't going to work out how you a like that okay so let me ask y this then how do y'all feel about it when people say that let's just say say your significant person other person or whatever cheats on you and people say that it doesn't make sense to leave because all you g to do is hook up with another cheater because everybody I agree has their you know their I agree for women I don't know about yeah I agree for women though and I'm say I know that [ __ ] going to sound sexies or whatever they call it but I thought you about to say sexy yeah it ain't it ain't enough [ __ ] fact so you get your [ __ ] up to go find another [ __ ] who just got just got left by another female who he cheated on like it's just a Revol Circle it's just a rev it depend on what you want like cuz all men don't cheat the guys I'm just keeping it real but the guys that y'all yeah don't want be want y'all don't want them guys like I hear so many women be like he boring he didn't he didn't God sent this man fool yeah right but you looking at goddamn be over here wasting time with me you yeah you looking at scam them you know what saying who ain't boy a going ain't going ain't going a lot of [ __ ] ain't going they already know you all the man this this [ __ ] so [ __ ] up cuz most of Mo like most of the time the [ __ ] that's good good the dudes that's good dude women look at them as weird y cornball mhm so like so this nigga's a real man gentle he's a man he's a man you w look God bwood breath B you smokeing bwood cut out you want to hear you hear girl how you don't want to hear that that sound cuz cuz you addicted to the [ __ ] yeah for real and that you ain't never seen that you know your mama going to be like what she doing like y y y y your people goingon to disapprove of that that [ __ ] [ __ ] up bro where you get him from yeah H Square boy H Square Bo sh but lame here but he the one for you and and you right BR be some good ass men and it's funny cuz a lot of folk think and I I had to explain that to cuz you know whenever I do what's name podcast them folk think that [ __ ] real so it be like I be getting hate mail and I just be like damn like this sh a joke yeah you be doing like the yeah that [ __ ] hard though finess finess yeah so it be a joke but I be saying some real [ __ ] so it catch like and that's all this [ __ ] really is just getting emotional response from people you see what I'm saying and boy them folk be going crazy on this [ __ ] like and I'm just saying like man for the most part it's a lot of good [ __ ] out there it just they don't want them [ __ ] they don't like and crazy because they don't even see them [ __ ] like if you if you try to explain like a good [ __ ] they don't even them [ __ ] invisible they only talk about the [ __ ] that they like which is a small percent you see what I'm saying like every [ __ ] ain't like that but the [ __ ] that you probably going to want he like that you see what I'm saying okay I say this right I say this right a woman want a [ __ ] well not all women women want to pull up with a [ __ ] that other [ __ ] respect and and all the [ __ ] that's what it is bro and all the [ __ ] want yeah that's what I'm saying they want to pull yeah pull up with a niggga that ever that the [ __ ] respect and the [ __ ] want that's other than that man not a [ __ ] that's like okay that that that want them [ __ ] who the [ __ ] who like cuz she want to feel a slight sense of of that yeah yeah that you might can yeah like cuz if I feel like I'm the only one want you then no no thrill this ain't man no thrill I feel like they want a [ __ ] they want a niggga to get all the hoes but then they want to get the [ __ ] and make the niggaer not get no more ho damn like I want you to be able to get all the hoes but I don't want I be able to stop you from getting all the hoes to say that I was the one yeah when have you seen that done before that why I keep trying to add the the lates like you seen you you seen your whoever your cousin get cheated on your sister everybody in the circle every no not get cheated on your brother is a cheater your uncle your daddy your cousin your nephew you done help him he ain't here girl he was here all night you done help people cheat what makes you think you f to get the [ __ ] that don't if he D type of [ __ ] I'm not saying all men cheat I'm saying like certain type of [ __ ] is just outside and them [ __ ] it too many I ain't going lie bro I say I think all men do cheat I think you only as faithful as your options I feel like nigg if a [ __ ] ain't capable of cheat then he ain't and most [ __ ] is broke and working for that 30 hours of God damn 24 hours a day they can't cheat [ __ ] depend what your focus is man I'm like I know [ __ ] is [ __ ] in the factory that what I'm saying work them nigg who got there got time to to talk talk they work B out that [ __ ] the [ __ ] nigg super cheating them R [ __ ] they s right there on the they they did a study and show like the the Lesser [ __ ] make the more likely he is to be faithful versus the more money a [ __ ] make the more he you know that though come on but that's what I'm saying so I'm saying like any like what I say to women is like what [ __ ] don't want to be a king like if if if you walk up to a man on the street like but some that [ __ ] don't make some [ __ ] King though other [ __ ] make some I know but I'm just saying like I the reason why I use the term King is because like okay [ __ ] what king had one Queen and no conine just for real like what king just had one wife one and he just was n that [ __ ] [ __ ] everything boy it was a [ __ ] in China boy this [ __ ] if you want to work next to the emperor you had to chop your dick off cuz he had so many hoes you had to chop your dick off to work in the castle in the padet cuz he ain't want you to godamn cuz you know she I know you ain't [ __ ] exactly but he a [ __ ] na here he going to [ __ ] nothing in here cuz guess why [ __ ] I cuz my my my son going to be a Heir so you can't like it ain't no practic test and all DNA test and [ __ ] so you leave your dick at the door come work in the [ __ ] so just think like all I'm saying is like you walk up to any average man and be like hey you you want to be king king of Atlanta for the day what [ __ ] going be like nah like hell yeah I want to cuz Men We value that [ __ ] we value power and Prestige and status and [ __ ] like that ambition you see I'm saying so you saying you saying basically like Ain a [ __ ] if a [ __ ] in a [ __ ] in the right situation to go yeah yeah give a [ __ ] 100 Mil boy what that [ __ ] dick GNA fall off F 100 million and everybody know it everybody know you got 100 milon women know you got 100 million my debate my only debate you got it might and it might be a lot more rare that just mean don't no loyalty exists nowhere for nobody but that philosophy I'm just saying with that philosophy then n but but but but but I got I got I gotta disagree on that because loyalty ain't to me loyalty ain't defined by sex yeah what you talking about to say I'm say he said he just saying get some [ __ ] I ain't saying like leave my wife [ __ ] oh you saying like that I'm saying you some [ __ ] I'm going to play I'm to I'm not I'm not no advocate for Cheetos or none of that but I'm saying is I get what he's saying yeah for real am I Tripp it what I'm saying he's saying like you never know what position you get in and where you start to see yourself at when you start when other people start to see you different but I can't I get what you saying no I I hear what he saying I'm just saying that you that's really it for real so okay so let me let me rephrase then so money will change you but do y'all think loyalty do you think a person if a person cheat on you they're disloyal to you if if y'all if y ain't got the agreement don't cheat H if the agreement if if if if if if if if you cheated on your dude right do you feel like you disloyal to him keep it real yeah I do it depends on how you unless unless unless unless she has an understanding with him that you can cheat n it ain't no understanding with that type of [ __ ] like if I'm with you no it's an understand some people have open relationship with you or whatever then like I'm with you if we've agreed to be together or if we've agreed to do this [ __ ] or however the [ __ ] whatever like say for instance um what if you done did everything else to do everything you took care you got them you there for them they sick they locked up anything you there right but you [ __ ] are you disloyal or unfaith both both unless some some one says you I I know that you're cheating and I don't give look the word see I look that up that's a good I'm telling you look up the word loyalty Loy look at the word loyalty and look up unfaith I think we did this one time on on another podcast on on big facts but are you disloyal or Unfaithful both Unfaithful both that's cold right now right Elite cuz a [ __ ] can do some disloyal [ __ ] to you and be faithful to you disloyal means failing to be loyal to a person or body to which one has obligations but loyalty Unfaithful but loyalty the word faithfulness is in loyalty what's what's lloy faithfulness in a steadfast face of Temptation renounced desert or betray see I'm getting a whole different what's name I don't know strong feeling of support or Alliance thank you that's what that that's Unfaithful is which one you looked up I think this sh Oxford yeah this Oxford I'm saying what's the name loyer you look up loyalty all right loyalty is what a strong feeling of support or Alliance so if you ain't broke the support of Alli or Alliance the alliance could be no the alliance could it's black the alliance the alliance could be that we ain't going to cheat I'm saying we go down that rabbit hole huh we can go down that rabbit holead but if someone does something the respect to make you feel betrayed then it violates loyalty and faithfulness what okay Faith that's all I'm saying of being fa yeah that's like say that's like saying just on some homeboy [ __ ] all right this homeboy always did everything right but then snitch who he told him you see what I'm saying though but but see it's different because like faithfulness is almost like crazy you know that way that's that's the new [ __ ] out here now like [ __ ] ain't told on me who he told on [ __ ] like that's the new [ __ ] that [ __ ] crazy and what's [ __ ] is disgusting I'm so glad I'm so glad I'm a comedian y boy I ain't even got to worry about this [ __ ] I don't even give a [ __ ] about this [ __ ] like boy I'm so glad I ain't even like even cuz it's like man this [ __ ] different bro like I this [ __ ] just way different I never thought that I see today that this [ __ ] would be like you know what I mean [ __ ] R and just keep rapping and keep you know what I mean this [ __ ] crazy for real 2024 so that's why I'm so we I listen man and I always take the [ __ ] to weird space because my mind just be weird sometimes y'all my mind be weird sometime but you see how we create AI right it's Dam nck can can grow to be a life for because AI going to be AI like robots going to be able to make other robots right M it's like a birth go hold up hold up being H me out all right so that's that's basically not humans I guess we're humans not that's basically another form of humanity right if they if they just go to building [ __ ] they we got our own fact we building [ __ ] and they multiply multiply multiply right who's to say that another planet didn't make us and the same [ __ ] hold on hold on hold on let me let me get this off the same little little plug ups and [ __ ] we putting in them they just electric they could have found some [ __ ] like brains organs and all that it's the same [ __ ] cuz it's from a different planet right it's still got damn [ __ ] this uh this at the top [ __ ] this the hard drive no real [ __ ] though am I tripping we got a hard drive computer we got we got a whole our bodies are basically computers right yeah they work like them similar cars if you think about a car car got engine who [ __ ] huh who controls all that what you mean who controls it we probably ran nor Atlanta philosophy that [ __ ] making s though J yeah it ain't but it listen bro we so if AI run off right now who's to say Humanity didn't run off so how they ain't find us if they was in control of us I'm saying we we can we can find a them [ __ ] bucking with sticks and [ __ ] they they them folk gret them folk they [ __ ] they they what they is now I ever heard little Fishbowl Theory what's that basically like the aliens tray the humanity and they just watch us I believe need that bro fish bowl the like like like you know how you just go and look at the fish tank the fish don't know you outside that [ __ ] they don't know what's going on outside the [ __ ] so it's a theory where they say like aliens created us and they just monitor us they just watch yeah I believe they just be watching us and [ __ ] I feel like it's too many of us for that [ __ ] to be going on what bro listen but but but how many shit's on the game you play the game right now you play a whole universe a whole world this [ __ ] is a real world in the yeah that a making [ __ ] you put [ __ ] on your you D near in that [ __ ] I just did a virtual reality [ __ ] over by um by um how me and Shante and dating went that [ __ ] that [ __ ] is real when you put them [ __ ] on your body you DN there you in there yeah the metaverse all that [ __ ] I don't know I think I think is we even woke now go rabbit B even W like [ __ ] you dreams and [ __ ] feel so real now come back so many times for me every day like I think I'm glitched up but you right but listen I had a dream and woke up and had to realize I had kids and [ __ ] I had a dream that I felt like [ __ ] I had a dream that I felt like I was there for like three months like I was living a whole life and all kind of [ __ ] Apartments trapping and all kind of [ __ ] and I woke up [ __ ] I had to be like where the [ __ ] I'm at I thought this [ __ ] was fake I thought what I was at was fake and the dream was real not real [ __ ] yeah that when they say you tapping in you can't determine well you know black folk about to get piles and [ __ ] super piles and [ __ ] huh Black Folk about to get super piles and [ __ ] y'all a see that what's yeah boy they saying Black Folk DNA DNA about to unlock and all kind of [ __ ] about to happen boy I just want to be a to fly and [ __ ] super speed I do think the Matrix I do think the Matrix [ __ ] was real though I do think we plug in and plug out when we go to sleep and wake up can't tell me bro I know I know I be glitching bro I ain't the only [ __ ] glitching y'all [ __ ] just don't be keeping it real [ __ ] just be trying to act like it don't exist I see everything you know what I'm saying you cuz with that fish sandwich yeah man what we doing scream about right it's all good man we appreciate you pulling up the big facts you know what I'm saying let everybody know where they can tap in with you and what you got coming up man look man y'all can tap in with me on YouTube Facebook Instagram Tik Tok everything all the same JQ health is cerski GQ Health J us s t q e H3 FF man the kid that did man you know what I mean if you think only those who think like that think like that man so yeah there it is check us out. bfa.com subscribe like comment share all that on the bigf network salute salute	left by time they did get to him what you think about this [ __ ] cat you watch that cat we [ __ ] yeah hell what you think about that I think it's a lot of truth to it like I don't know I don't know them folk person I don't want to say too much cuz godamn I ain't trying to get black ball before I get I just talking [ __ ] but now I I I definitely I see that [ __ ] here like you know I mean it's like a you know kind of like a little pecking order gatekeeping type [ __ ] like people gatekeep in all rounds no matter how big small so I think every city got that [ __ ] and then you get to the industry they got their own Gatekeepers so or you feel like they be trying to hold [ __ ] out you think you think that's possible yeah well I ain't going to say it I I think if you weak if you weak it'll stop you like [ __ ] like you know what I mean if you don't say [ __ ] I'm make it anyway know I mean it can scare you off and you just like I seen some with um the Wayne brother he was like somebody said something to him and he start doing stand up for like 10 years so that [ __ ] can really	-2	6	4	left by time they did get to him what you think about this cat you watch that cat we yeah hell what you think about that I think it's a lot of truth to it like I don't know I don't know them folk person I don't want to say too much cuz godamn I ain't trying to get black ball before I get I just talking but now I I I definitely I see that here like you know I mean it's like a you know kind of like a little pecking order gatekeeping type like people gatekeep in all rounds no matter how big small so I think every city got that and then you get to the industry they got their own Gatekeepers so or you feel like they be trying to hold out	yeah well I ain't going to say it I I think if you weak if you weak it'll stop you like like you know what I mean if you don't say I'm make it anyway know I mean it can scare you off and you just like I seen some with um the Wayne brother he was like somebody said something to him and he start doing stand up for like 10 years so that can really	3,4,6	2,5,4	3	4	6	2	5	4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-Xsjx4VTfU	4,038	q-Xsjx4VTfU	2024-06-27 00:00:00	[Music] this is big fact Network [Music] exclusive live from the culture lab it's time for big facts big bank is here baby Jade is here DJ Scream is here we're welcoming today a comedian that's very funny you see him online give it up for scam lightly on big facts what's up what's up what's up bro you good man yeah man I have made it man so what you say you scam your way on the big F tell tell us how you got on big F I want to hear the whole story yeah so look man I got damn I had hit bank account but goddamn Bank was so cool about we worked some [ __ ] out and then goam you know I mean I owe them so so this a transaction yeah this transaction I just [ __ ] with you no man for real like shout out my manager uh y sh man brother and you know I mean we been had linked up like I came and did skit on y'all um on the podcast what that was like about a year ago yeah so U man just kept working kept grinding and boom back here so is your Origins comedy or what was you doing before that no I was in some whole other [ __ ] some whole other [ __ ] you can talk about or you can't talk about I can't allegedly I say allegedly but now for real I was like uh I was um in the streets just like I ain't G to say everybody else but pretty much you know I demographic I came from the same [ __ ] PIV it and I was always doing I was always like stupid my whole life I can say that I was slow I was slow so I been I've been should have step in comedy but I kind of running from it you know what I mean cuz I Ain I ain't I was I wasn't in no position to be laughed at at the time so when I finally took it serious sat down two months that [ __ ] was out of here at what point did you know you was funny man since I was little I ain't gonna lie like I said I always been a CL clown I always been a [ __ ] roast and always I I I had to fight [ __ ] I roast so good you know what I mean so I always had that aspect to me so I just when I really took it serious like man I'm going to do this comedy [ __ ] like full-fledged nothing else I'm sit down and do it like I said that sh was out of here but I I will say like I I do feel like it chose me instead of me choosing it you know I mean do you think it's important to be able to do like other other types of comedies like AC in the movie Stand Up and all that type of stuff too or or or or is it if you're a one lane type of comedian is that cool in your opinion I I mean I feel like whatever you comfortable with see what I'm saying because a lot of people ain't comfortable with that stage you know I mean I didn't did all of it so like I don't know like for me I didn't get all of it you know I mean but for everybody I like stand up ain't for everybody you know I mean that [ __ ] a whole different monster you know I me why you say that because it's like like it's [ __ ] that you got to know like you got to know time you know I mean you got to know punch lines you got to know how to build a joke up you know you got to sit traps type [ __ ] I mean so it's like an art front for like it's actually some people that probably ain't even funny in real life but they comedians you see what I'm saying cuz they just know the art of telling jokes ver being just naturally funny like you might be naturally funny and get on stage and can't you that's true just how some of these rap [ __ ] be lying boom same way but they sound good exactly that [ __ ] sound good [ __ ] make [ __ ] sound good you go get some money yeah how it go what's the inspiration for your skits uh cuz a lot of it seem like day-to-day just man really just like life and um me like because and I say that because [ __ ] I'm damn near like a psych patient like you know I mean my mama was a paranoid schizophrenic so I come from like my mind be racing so this [ __ ] like therapy for me I just get to get out [ __ ] that's just in my mind all day which is some stupid [ __ ] that I just be thinking about so now I get to relay that on on on camera so let me answer this so just going back to what you said about your mom how was it growing up in a household with somebody that was battling mental illness like that uh definitely a struggle definitely definitely a struggle like uh I want to say my mom probably was your dad there yeah yeah actually my dad raised me like um okay RP my dad um he actually like like when they split my dad took me so I ra with my dad you know what I mean like okay and and he was a old man like my dad was born 1929 he was in World War II real [ __ ] on God everything my dad born in 1929 [ __ ] in World War II so I so so I be having more on God how how old was your daddy when he had you he had me he was like 50 something okay that that add up yeah yeah yeah okay yeah I'm talking about dead that [ __ ] was in World War II so so he put certain mors and [ __ ] in a [ __ ] that I know people ain't even got no more you know what I mean so that's why people be thinking I sound how I do because you know what I mean like I was raised with a Elder you know I mean that [ __ ] was a real Elder you see what I'm saying so with him he was like the um coherent parent of the group you see what I'm saying my mama was wild Young illness type [ __ ] so my daddy was like the one that took us and raised us you see what I'm saying but growing up in the house with that [ __ ] yeah that [ __ ] was a struggle I think that's why I get my comedic comedic side front cuz my mama she Ain have no fut she'll say anything to anybody at any time and like people didn't know she was you know I mean she was like she had the illness or whatever and they thought that she was trying to be funny or like but it was funny though it was funny though I can't C like my MMA was funny as hell though like rip she was funny as hell she Ain what she'll say anything out M like a like a child worse like a adult that know better but still say some [ __ ] like like for real like your homeboy might come over there she might just look at your homeboy and say some [ __ ] like I bet your dick little out of nowhere real [ __ ] where you from originally originally I was born in tusi Alabama I was born in my grandma house 46 yeah I went to school down there oh you did yeah they told you with the locals oh I'm cool with a couple of them shouts the street of Frank Walkin some of them so was your daddy a part of the experiment that they did down there no uh no my dad U he was from Chicago so he had came later but yeah Tusk experiments like a lot of my family members and [ __ ] was affected by that like d yeah did they ever give them reparations for that I think they just now I think they just yeah yeah they did yeah they did yeah they they got reparation for it but it was only like a small group of them left by time they did get to him what you think about this [ __ ] cat you watch that cat we [ __ ] yeah hell what you think about that I think it's a lot of truth to it like I don't know I don't know them folk person I don't want to say too much cuz godamn I ain't trying to get black ball before I get I just talking [ __ ] but now I I I definitely I see that [ __ ] here like you know I mean it's like a you know kind of like a little pecking order gatekeeping type [ __ ] like people gatekeep in all rounds no matter how big small so I think every city got that [ __ ] and then you get to the industry they got their own Gatekeepers so or you feel like they be trying to hold [ __ ] out you think you think that's possible yeah well I ain't going to say it I I think if you weak if you weak it'll stop you like [ __ ] like you know what I mean if you don't say [ __ ] I'm make it anyway know I mean it can scare you off and you just like I seen some with um the Wayne brother he was like somebody said something to him and he start doing stand up for like 10 years so that [ __ ] can really you know what I mean shake you in the wrong way you the whole body if you let it you know I mean but I feel like if you're a [ __ ] that come from nothing I truly feel like what's for you is for you though that's true I don't know it might be harder for you I don't feel like no n can keep you out yeah it might keep you out of they Circle yeah that's what said they situation yeah but this [ __ ] too big man you can make a way man I be [ __ ] excuses I feel but I I I feel the way you feel but I also feel like if the right [ __ ] sprays your name then it's going to be I don't want to say next to Impossible but it can be super [ __ ] overly extremely difficult in mostu but it's it's it still B down to B down to how hard you go look at the [ __ ] that they do spray the [ __ ] going hard about this [ __ ] man yeah but [ __ ] look how I look that's true look look at the [ __ ] who it's a it's a it's a lot of casual to that [ __ ] what I'm saying it's a lot of casualty to that [ __ ] because I feel like you laid down at the end of the day that's true that what I said what I said like if you weak you going to fold you going to fold in on yourself that [ __ ] really be mental like if somebody get in your head and you don't get that [ __ ] out Bo like [ __ ] what's the [ __ ] name B Simon that [ __ ] went what number one FK got in that [ __ ] head he Ain like performing to his best n they ain't getting they ain't getting his head he want it he W it he W it yeah sometimes CU I I don't really know a lot about that [ __ ] I just know R talked about him in the song he said like Ben Timmons I ain't going nowhere or something yeah he had a hell of a agent he had a hell of a agent they giving him money based on what they thought he might be able to do what I'm saying he ain't never do it though but the [ __ ] it paid him based off of his potential exactly but he got man he got gunshot BR the man wouldn't even shoot the basketball man that's in your head he wouldn't even take a shot n he ain't shoo bro cuz he wasn't going to make it man he didn't shoot it he could he could he didn't even drive I'm just saying if okay let's take Ben Simmons maybe I'm being in a homer and let's take Ant-Man all right Antman shoot that's what I was saying last night what I said what I said if you weak I'm saying like he mentally KN up it's you right I see what you say you say take the shot forget that like an is from the west side that dog I know to do matter [ __ ] lay down everywhere it's a [ __ ] laying down on every side of town same how you name one [ __ ] that stood up I bet we can a fire [ __ ] that done laid down laid down [ __ ] [ __ ] up Z they ain't do nothing to Zion he did it to himself I mean who Z the big dude who be smashing the porn or whatever Zion Williamson the boy can jump though like boy can jump yeah you getting paid to jump jumping don't win championships and games but it's early too though early super early he got he got a minute man he still got he got time to like when did he get signed once you he been in the league six years that ain't ear I been in about six years yeah I'm thinking like three n he been playing hurt two of them oh yeah that's what it is that's that's what it is that's is my opinion when when it comes to like the athlete [ __ ] some people just ain't got it but that's what I'm saying like people I think a lot of people put emphasis on it like that [ __ ] just everywhere that [ __ ] ain't that [ __ ] real rare but if but if you're not it and then on top of that you don't have self-esteem then like you're going you're going to flop every time you going to f in on yourself like you going to be your worst enemy you going to godamn you're going to implode facts hey what what a character scam come from man this [ __ ] so crazy so the the interview that future did with Kevin Sam I watched that interview I like well that [ __ ] don't give a [ __ ] about [ __ ] just just his demeanor how he was just like yeah I me a [ __ ] by like I like but this [ __ ] just so nonchalant so I was like damn what if the scammer was like that like [ __ ] just pull all kind of moves don't give a [ __ ] about the consequences so and it's crazy I watched I I the interview was on TV and I just like hey I want to shoot a skit by the Atlanta scammer and then in like 10 minutes I just he like he need a name I was like [ __ ] scam like Le oh like scam likely I'm like no not likely but like Le like l e e so I just ran with that [ __ ] and that [ __ ] just stuck so hard that people like people don't even call me by my name they just call me scam introdu you fact so I like [ __ ] scam so I just ran with it man and that [ __ ] just naturally like took off because I feel like you know that's what we living in anyway what you think about SC game I mean [ __ ] is though you go with your move like you had if it made sense yeah yeah [ __ ] me too if it made sense like I feel like I did everything it is to do in the streets like everything like a [ __ ] that played all positions in that [ __ ] I had been a fake ass little pimp before godamn s everything it is I did everything so [ __ ] why not riding around that man we was making no money man but that [ __ ] him [ __ ] the hard [ __ ] listen [ __ ] listen sh but then the crazy thing is just talking to them folk like when you talk like real PE and [ __ ] they be like you got to coach the [ __ ] talk I ain't got the patience to keep talking to no [ __ ] about some [ __ ] just keep on telling you some [ __ ] that you should know [ __ ] that I go get me some drugs or something baby this [ __ ] slow oh when with that turning point though huh like the Turn Point like man I'm just feel cuz you always legit now right yo for sure why he looking around I won't be on big face for real no I am though we in the turtle what it was though like you know [ __ ] I ain't going to lie but you know the pandemic had [ __ ] boom [ __ ] was eating good like you know I mean so I had enough money to where I was like damn I can kind of ease up off this you know I mean this [ __ ] cuz at first like I said I I never wanted to do comedy because of that like I mean I was dealing with [ __ ] in the street I ain't really want no [ __ ] to feel like I was no funny [ __ ] you know what I mean when you dealing with certain amount of money so once I once I felt like I made enough money then I was like [ __ ] I can kind of start doing comedy like you know doing my skits and [ __ ] so like I said I had sat down like um my turning my main turning point though was and this is trueu I had went to Miami for new years and [ __ ] so I had on took a I thought was edible so I ate a edible but I don't know what for issue was like it it had to be like strs or something yeah cuz boy I had the worst trip of my life [ __ ] like I'm I'm I'm zooed you know you you know when you get too high you think you about to die and [ __ ] that's what I was on I'm like well I'm I'm G I'm out of here so so I walk to the gas station to get some milk drunk drunk drunk a gallon of milk that man that [ __ ] only wors when you swallow dope no no that milk workk any natural high and that milk work that sh why the [ __ ] y'all ain't G me milk that day I was TR to die want to see it you milk what you talking about let no El kill you bro you just tripping but that how that [ __ ] had me that [ __ ] do that [ __ ] take you to a psychedelic listen boy that [ __ ] had listen I swear to God on everything I got back to the room after drinking the milk [ __ ] I lay on the bed I'm like I'm going to die I just Clos my eyes I'm in the universe I'm just in the universe like but I can see my body on the bed with my ey closed I owe my eyes I'm back in the room close my eyes I'm in the universe so I start seeing myself on stage with a microphone like that was astro Projection what when you had that where you supposed to be at though that's what I was saying like but I think what it is though I think it's it's like a unified Feld and you see all the possibilities that you can be right so that was me in the future looking back at me like see what I'm saying even with Dreams yeah exactly like [ __ ] was telling me come on like do what we on so I'm like man I'm going to do this [ __ ] then I got back to Atlanta boy my cousin was standing with him but [ __ ] tow tow a hole in my head thing gone you yeah why part me empty [ __ ] gone all [ __ ] gone you know I mean see make sense yeah I see see yeah we CH we chopped up and [ __ ] y chopped it up yeah I mean you was just like no regular chop up like you know I mean but you know I mean like like what what the excuse was why he broke in your [ __ ] no I say he was standing [ __ ] that [ __ ] a break in that [ __ ] lit there I'm saying where the excuse was taking out with the [ __ ] uh I don't even remember so about like he probably felt like I owed him or some [ __ ] yeah but it probably wasn't that you know what I mean but like he was staying with you and you owed him it be like that sometime the [ __ ] kind of [ __ ] but but you just know like you know I mean like [ __ ] was just getting out the fed you know [ __ ] PTSD like you know what I mean home to steep so you know what I mean home you doing stand up yeah yeah I didn't I didn't did stand up I did step away from it though cuz like I said it's it's so much politics and that [ __ ] and that [ __ ] ain't paying nothing they think it ain't paying nothing I got a little something for you want do [ __ ] show yeah we September I when is it April May damn that's May May 4th Saturday May 4 okay you know I got I gota get back on stage that [ __ ] A that [ __ ] ain't just like no just you know I mean that [ __ ] real real you got to get back up St you just got to get in your bag right yeah yeah but but it's like like I said like it's about time so like that's why you do it every night so you can got damn sharpen your your skills no we had um we had my man on here man don't you you got to get you gotta got damn we just had Henry up here right oh yeah yeah Henry my boy yeah Henry said the same [ __ ] like you got to exercise [ __ ] going and 100 50 people rooms 25 people in the room you still gota go work your material even if you comeing in [ __ ] working on us yeah for real people you got to work that material bro if a n GNA do this [ __ ] n gota do it all the way no but see that's what I was saying like so I noticed like if you try to do that and the content one of them going to suffer see what I'm saying so why you say that because like the amount of time that you got to take like like [ __ ] what's her name did it country Wayne did it but he he I'm saying like them [ __ ] beat but but what I'm saying like once they did one of them surer I ain't going to say like the quality of the content serer but the amount that you putting out going to go down you got to balance it at that point you got to balance it yeah I know it but I'm saying like far as like especially like now because [ __ ] gate you see what I'm saying so it's still like I ain't like [ __ ] don't like internet comedians for real that I to say really respect yeah exactly like you get chance pause edit you get a chance do all that [ __ ] want that [ __ ] on the spot but but it's the thing though it's like she like they it's kind of like the old mindset like how [ __ ] was Pass Out CD ain't no more CD so [ __ ] don't know how to transition you see what I'm saying so it's kind of like that like they be want you to just only do stand up rooms and [ __ ] but it's like I got the internet why would I go touch a whole another see what I'm saying like you can reach way more still though them [ __ ] but [ __ ] Ain't Going [ __ ] [ __ ] don't really internet comedian oh but iig who like being the trench you know what I'm saying the people do like I love it yeah but I'm saying like comedians who gotdamn know where they got it from gotam getting them $20 nights godamn [ __ ] [ __ ] that got a drink you know saying [ __ ] get a [ __ ] [ __ ] like them nigg feel like they got it out the mud but that's still like a yeah [ __ ] up um perspective but I get it you know what I'm saying for what they feel like what they put in every comedian should put in but [ __ ] something it's the luck of the [ __ ] gu what I got this [ __ ] out the mud too I got this [ __ ] with a phone and a goddamn ring light a cheat one at that godamn exactly you know I mean cord breaking off that [ __ ] I had to wire that b back together put some tape around it so it's the same [ __ ] it's just like I said it's people perspective like you know what I mean and me honestly I ain't going to give a [ __ ] what another [ __ ] think about me like [ __ ] I ain't in it to be you know I mean I mean do you feel do you feel sometime like man yeah I need I need to goam go and get in that I need to go on and Mer that part so then let them know I can do it do you ever ever get but I did I ain't going to lie I did you see what I'm saying like I performed at a you know what I mean like a at a high stage what you know I mean [ __ ] some big dogs from the city like boy you got it know I mean it just like I said that [ __ ] wasn't making no sense for me and it's taking away from some [ __ ] that do make money so what I'm saying like I'm making money on Instagram and Facebook and [ __ ] like that so I'm making way more money than I would be trying to do taking a risk anything $200 [ __ ] you got to get into it with anything n that [ __ ] your security none of that [ __ ] yeah that [ __ ] A you been spank the [ __ ] on camera for what hell cuz the nigg [ __ ] G they move yeah cuz I ain't going to think I'm black out a whole another side be like oh n that [ __ ] don't even want that turn the big to workout what it name big Q got turn the big Q onig ass yeah I don't even want to play n but you get what I'm saying though yeah that [ __ ] that that don't make sense to be cuz I went gotam I would just say if I I want to be a rapper right there I would do my [ __ ] online I wouldn't be at no open mics that [ __ ] dangerous yeah what I'm saying like [ __ ] like like you not going to gain no fans from that [ __ ] like I had a homeboy yes you are no you yes you are fans from what okay from from like open m stand up talk open mik rapping or you talking about stand up comedian stand up comedian I'm saying you make no money off no you might not make no money off of it but you like people will put your name with your face and it'll like help increase your family I agree that but well you got to get on the internet the internet no the internet is definitely over it but I'm saying touching the people is is going to make a difference also but most of the people outside [ __ ] but then what I say though like other crew y'all rapping my bad J y'all rapping other crew other open mic and you f then we got to get into it cuz you f yeah how this [ __ ] go comedian comedian okay we on the same show together [ __ ] mad at me cuz I just was funny as hell y that'll get you [ __ ] up real talk like cuz then they ain't going to want to put you on their show you see what I'm saying because every like I feel like most comedians everybody want to feel like the funnyest [ __ ] in the room just like okay a artist right let's say if two artists in the room and one get to playing his music the other [ __ ] going to get be ready for him to cut him music off so he can play his [ __ ] like come on man r that [ __ ] up so I can play my [ __ ] my [ __ ] F like your [ __ ] cool but my [ __ ] so it's the same thing you know mean it's the same [ __ ] and doing open mics [ __ ] steal your jokes I had a [ __ ] steal my whole [ __ ] and do the [ __ ] the next day because I was like I ain't know you see what I'm saying so they we was talking about that yeah so they'll tell you like don't do open mics and comedy cuz writers and [ __ ] be in the crowd to Ste [ __ ] jokes remix so it's a conspiracy yeah GNA remix your [ __ ] yeah like he ain't going nowh with that he funny I see what he Tred to do I'm show how to do it like your delivery or something might be off what I'm saying you how to do you a real funny ass [ __ ] get your [ __ ] too fast I know how to do it I know how to perform the joke better than and then boom got some of they [ __ ] with your [ __ ] that [ __ ] is that [ __ ] out of here TV so it just this [ __ ] just like I said sh just like a rap game you had to skit one time about like dating in Atlanta and [ __ ] what's your like what's your take on dating in Atlanta man have fun God damn don't take nothing serious like this [ __ ] ain't serious out here for real what you mean I feel like this [ __ ] a big ass high school for real I mean like Atlanta man I I would me personally I wouldn't like for love and no [ __ ] out here like for real like I feel like if you ain't already got it like new generation New Age day this [ __ ] over with like if you ain't already got love and marriage and wife and all that [ __ ] over with in Atlanta as of today it's a rap what you saying in a certain age group or just period or just period because everybody mind mind frames have change you see what I'm saying everybody mind is right now she it's okay to hurt whoever is long as is you happy like everybody feel like everything Justified as long as I'm looking out for me and I'm happy then she it's whatever it's cold real you saying no no consideration for nobody nobody if you look at everything everybody talking about online and all the toxicity [ __ ] everybody really just out for self and it's okay like like everybody promoe it's okay to be for yourself like no team ball no nothing I ain't going to lie I I help a lot of people though but I I I I've been on that lately like [ __ ] that I got to figure me out cuz that's the way the world live bro yeah but that's what I'm saying saying that the way the world live like whoever with me like this [ __ ] we doing yeah yeah this me figuring me out I can't worry about goddamn going play goddamn tennis yeah you know what I'm saying cuz my my buddy want to play tennis all day ain't no money in tennis bro for me I need to be right here doing this [ __ ] so I got to do what serve me I don't I don't knock that so that's why that's why I'm saying like the D SC sh like that like [ __ ] ain't nobody really going to stick it out with no [ __ ] till it's too late you see what I'm saying like that's how I feel anyway from my experience and your ass ain't lit ain't got nothing for you so you saying like the ho going anyway going gone they gone get the elevator with that SM that B that b he don't know what you say oh yeah really that that Clyde Christian but you know what I mean CDE be G out of here what's that come on what floor you stay on oh seven whole time [ __ ] paying for the [ __ ] all kind of [ __ ] tricky you don't think it's a circle though I think you don't think it's the circle like it's like that circle of people he right see see see you you speaking from where you at he's saying like outside the circle is different though but I but but this the thing I say with men it might be you see what I'm saying like for the for the men that's outside that Circle they don't know what we talking about see what I'm saying they don't but all the women know because they all going to get brought into that Circle see what I'm saying all women been out somewhere and a [ __ ] didn't caught they ey [ __ ] with some money and they gone they gone cuz Atlanta like Atlanta like people it's a wom that it's a wom that be it's a women that be up in Chastain Park at some [ __ ] Neil Soul jazz [ __ ] that be out the way yeah you talking about a different Circle CC you talking about the hook you talking about the Hooka Circle no uh I'm talking about all walk the [ __ ] is the hookah Circle CC the hookah lounges and [ __ ] n I'm talking about all no but I mean it's it's people like it's people that go to the hookah lounges the hookah Circle or whatever they got their own money that's not giv a Fu about what another [ __ ] got but it's not that it's not also just about money see that's what like I ain't saying like what it is SC it's just that stuff on like it's just that stuff like you know certain people got that stuff right so what I'm saying is like and the reason why I say that the reason why I say that because I I watched like when I was a young [ __ ] my partner this [ __ ] had everything this [ __ ] uh drop head godamn benty truck all this [ __ ] I done watch every type of woman from every type of Walk of Life come in the [ __ ] spot and he tell them folks straight up the [ __ ] make Ann hey look you ain't going to suck like at the end of night you can get up and get the [ __ ] out and I Ain never see not one woman get up and leave like got me [ __ ] up and I seen the [ __ ] with doctors lawyers them them so-called Neo Soul [ __ ] I ain't never seen not one of them get up and say no [ __ ] up never by them folks oh now you put yourself in that position now what he saying is listen it's hoes everywhere yeah I'm talk about scientist nurse doctor D judges whatever hoes women going to be women some of them but what he's saying is he's saying the on they don't even allow theyel to pull up on bro that's what I'm saying cuz we talk it don't matter what walk a life it's still a select few women she can be outside and still won't pull up on you I know some [ __ ] who ain't going I know a lot of them going but some of them ain't going but see that's a lot of them that ain't going some of them ain't going I'mma keep it 100 he take that right [ __ ] but some of still but okay what what you said take cuz we all know son like damn ain't nobody like everybody compar like but you ain't nobody [ __ ] who we know [ __ ] nobody but like you said you said take that right [ __ ] right now knowing how competitive Atlanta is you don't think that [ __ ] somewh in the crowd know he in the crowd but the thing about it is she know that but it like I a listen listen I'm going to V with some of them CU I know some of them bro just because and that's then the one to elevate too yes like we like it's it's like going every circle of [ __ ] all my budy is sniper diapers yeah so we going to know who done smashed her like what about her like [ __ ] send your picture around yeah that what [ __ ] do like who this is if I DM you a girl you know what that mean who this is yeah oh that oh that you send that [ __ ] around to the [ __ ] who already who making them announcements tell them to all them [ __ ] who make them announcements they going to come back and be like I don't know her I don't know her I don't know her I don't know her she good she might be that over there in the other crowd now with what you saying go ahead but but see that's what I'm saying I'm not saying like all cuz it's impossible to say all of course of course it's a couple most yeah of course it's a couple Butterfly by The hornest Nest but [ __ ] [ __ ] I ain't going to stand by and let the [ __ ] sting me I'm getting the [ __ ] on [ __ ] them butterflies you see what I'm saying so that's all I'm saying like yeah [ __ ] can't it's hard to deci what I said on Instagram standing beside them it's hard to deci which one is which so and I like man and this thing I think think Atlanta is kind of like this [ __ ] [ __ ] you up this [ __ ] [ __ ] you up cuz it's just like the Lifey like man ain't no I ain't really seen no place like Atlanta like this [ __ ] really is the mecca of like Black Culture to me you know what I mean like I feel like [ __ ] Atlanta is like Legend like even if you just staying in Atlanta right now this [ __ ] Legend like this a legend this a legendary City so the [ __ ] that go on here it go on everywhere like that you know what I mean so it's just the the level of competition and you got you you got to be a dog to be out this [ __ ] for real yeah yeah you got to be you got to have some real dog in you for real and most and most people ain't got I ain't going to say most [ __ ] most about people that's outside but now I'm talking about even the [ __ ] working 9 to5 that don't even go nowhere and [ __ ] they can't even keep up like but you know that [ __ ] ain't but a job and and paying bill you G have to do some you GNA have to do something something he ain't gonna be able to just work come home pay bills and be straight unless your ass stay somewhere in caning or something but down here oh no we close to the city but your ass through so you think you ever lock in like on some relationship [ __ ] man I have goddamn go somewhere else not in that like how I used to be seen so much you Tain yeah there's always exception that can't I believe exceptions to the rule I don't know bro I didn't had a [ __ ] in the bed we finished and it be like you just made me commit adultery I'm like what wait what I didn't know you was married damn yeah that a know what I'm saying like a boy say that to everybody so that [ __ ] hit different like damn B that [ __ ] crazy it could be just bad in small towns though they just more sneaky and quiet going I trust that because I know Atlanta exists see what I'm saying so you ain't being brought to Atlanta and tested then you don't know see what I'm saying like she might just be like that she ain't got the opportunity see you ain't got no opportunity to be no hope everybody your daddy the preacher everybody know you in town so you Ain had no opportunity to be no hope bring her to Atlanta unleash her and then she got what she TV see see sh you see on TV right there like right there magic and [ __ ] will try you like nigg be like come here [ __ ] [ __ ] who you would never thought tell you come here tell you come here come here it going to [ __ ] you up it's going to blow your mind man I didn't seen that [ __ ] but that [ __ ] and I tell [ __ ] like man don't bring your girl up here dog don't bring your girl over here man if you if you coming from my of town you come man leave don't bring your old lady man try to move up it with her but none of that [ __ ] dead she just can't do this no more none of they can't do this no more it's too hard I think you should you think bring your girl to Atlanta you going to lock all the way in you need to know what you locking in with yeah they do it us us a woman a woman a woman will bring you around all her badass friends to see what you on yeah they do that [ __ ] to us yeah yeah yeah yeah I go yeah so expose her take her to uh you break around your don't take a center with a friends y'all go have fun n but look you take around your R po but get the poping all that sh man sh going to be in the air like this here over with what facts like they'll come back cuz a lot like I don't really know him like that anyway tell I don't really know I met him for real what we've been together two years it ain't that serious we do that take your serious like like I telling about my buddy right P who had had the bag listen man like you might be [ __ ] that really like me they might think I'm handsome but they not coming home with me but at the end of the night like if if shl say hey what's up they over with yeah I had to respect it I had like okay [ __ ] it I got to get on my grind like I ain't mad that is how the game is right now oh you got the [ __ ] you you got the [ __ ] over there with the looks his buddy got there went here he got bag put him in the pot up for you I had like I had like a oldale rain roll buty got a new bit truck baby go go with him I'm go go go with him go go [ __ ] I see you going I see you going I see you going and I ain't mad cuz I understand the game gu what I'mma have my turn and when I have my turn I don't want none of the old ho that already been [ __ ] up [ __ ] they gonna be all of them no but it's some new [ __ ] coming out the [ __ ] every day oh man it's some [ __ ] coming out the [ __ ] every day brand new don't even know what's out here yeah Michael cor Pur she Michel Michael cor Bel she cool I want to hold bottles I see they they uhuh they already know I already know they know what to buy yeah they know how person ah n i buy my cor coach i d by some Reb classes what you oh man Dam n that [ __ ] that [ __ ] real man sad reality it's Savage out here man like the wor listen man then the raapers don't [ __ ] [ __ ] man if you [ __ ] really bad man it's old we so it's really bad for real like really bad oh it's over with she might have some morals man n this [ __ ] like draing them and DM your girl just a space like put space in send it blank bubble you know what that mean this in the location [ __ ] man [ __ ] send your [ __ ] that big ass air Drake plane facts don't bring nothing they going to pick you up wherever you was standing there stand right there leave everything they going to pick you up to pick you up don't move they to pick you up in some [ __ ] take you to the helicopter helicopter to edate fly your ass to somewhere you never seen before bro you gone that would worth that whole relationship B care man this [ __ ] crazy bro was the [ __ ] true about how how the [ __ ] um how Drake had this sing out there with with her husband he sent the [ __ ] home man it was a story like it was a singer that he was like trying to I guess sign or some [ __ ] he flew her in her husband out and then like for a week or some [ __ ] and then like the last couple days sent the husband home man he [ __ ] cold I just when you about I just said my [ __ ] Joel Silver right shout out was movie producer Big Boy producer he told me a story one time I'm tell B [ __ ] it he said he said his wife when he first seen his wife she was married he told her I'mma marry you but him her and him her and her husband work for him he sent this [ __ ] on a movie for six months in a whole another state and kept the [ __ ] with him and bar I'm telling you bro well not the [ __ ] his wife but I'm just saying it's just like bro it's over with it's over with some [ __ ] what they want they can get if [ __ ] up to say that but did you see what I'm saying cuz [ __ ] put in the full work you better not be slipping a inch like a inch some you better have a slip of an inch and to see if he I'm telling you bro this [ __ ] [ __ ] up and women are cold some women I'm not I'm not um generalized I'm just saying some women are cold BR it'll be like they never knew you yeah for real [ __ ] act like she never even knew your name like you don't exist like how many times you see women do that like men can't really do that like [ __ ] with you I [ __ ] with you no matter what I'm always [ __ ] with this [ __ ] I [ __ ] with her how [ __ ] is [ __ ] be invested yeah [ __ ] be like I [ __ ] with women when they boy this [ __ ] I don't know him and be de serious like I don't know him they don't convince theirself that they don't know you oh man especially especially if it's a [ __ ] around that got some [ __ ] going on but them f w look your way boy but I feel like I feel like for a female to act like she doesn't know a [ __ ] that she wants loved it had to be something that happened but look listen I feel always going to be done happen [ __ ] going to be [ __ ] wom always got a chance to justify their action because something happened we in this [ __ ] or we in this [ __ ] but what's crazy no but what I'm saying is like Mo nine times out of 10 if if a [ __ ] is really in love with a [ __ ] like for real for real like they going to get into it they going to fall out she going to say [ __ ] him a million times but if she really loves this [ __ ] she's G to love this [ __ ] forever but if it's some [ __ ] that like some unfor a lot of women I've been hearing this [ __ ] lately a lot of women be kicking at I can learn the love a [ __ ] and they never be unlearned truly till you see some [ __ ] you really love you thought you was in love that's what most the [ __ ] most the women do they be delusional some some way like they like I heard three women say that like recently I thought I was going to learn to love him it's conveyance versus love too though I think some women men probably too whatever get convenience [ __ ] up with love yeah they they enter into the relationship with potential and they enter the relationship with uh what it could be not what it is like I can't deal with you if it ain't what it is right then like it have to be that I can't potentially feel like that and saying that I love you and knowing you trying to we trying to fall in love we trying to do hell no I can't potentially I can't fake that but if you but okay so let me ask you this then if you don't to some degree fall in love with potential then that's D how how does your how does your love get tested in order for you to be able to know whether or not you can grow with this person that's what I'm saying so it ain't it listen on one thing about it hold up scam one thing about it when a [ __ ] your person you know what it is cuzz you can't it's just something about you know when you love a person you know when you want to love a person you know when I like her a lot but you know if a [ __ ] jump out the bush with a stick you ain't F to try to tote this [ __ ] like I'mma tote my [ __ ] like man hey I'm jump in front you don't think that's that's that's the test would you die [ __ ] jump out shooter stick is you going is you going to try to c shei a [ __ ] around run but but this disconnect I had real [ __ ] though that the truth but this a disconnect though this disconnect because she's thinking like a woman that's how women like women date potential a [ __ ] going to like what he see instantly like if I like you I [ __ ] like you like if a [ __ ] say Hey you my girl we already the God damn but but if but if you like me just based off of what you see then no he saying not see you observing her not the look fact the outer when I see you I see you I don't see what you look like on the outside that's why I tell my wife hey don't ask me unbiased whatever you do going I'm going like it don't ask me if I like it don't ask me if nothing I like you so I don't give a [ __ ] what it is that [ __ ] look good you know what I'm saying so that's just what it is so I can't don't ask me on bias so we don't see potential and [ __ ] yeah we see you you yeah like if I like how you make me feel I feel that if a [ __ ] say if a [ __ ] commit like cuz I don't know like it's hard as [ __ ] for me to say I want to commit cuz if feels like I'm giving up some [ __ ] like so I feel like no no man truly wants to commit but if he find a woman that he feel like man shout shout it shout it worth of everything shout it it like then of course he's going to commit but it's not no easy [ __ ] that [ __ ] just want to do like [ __ ] Ain't just running out here to commit you see what I'm saying like [ __ ] don't want to commit H understand but a [ __ ] will if you find something that you feel like worth like I ain't going to find nothing else like sh like she one of a lifetime I ain't going to find nothing else like her so we ain't looking at her potential cuz sh you could have a a a [ __ ] pot piss in a want throw out of her [ __ ] going godamn hop down on a woman but a woman ain't just going to [ __ ] with no broke straight broke ass no car no house no n [ __ ] she's off the bat they ain't going to do that but gu what man that [ __ ] rare that [ __ ] better have a foot long a foot long goddamn she going to have something that she want he ain't going to just be it going to be something going to be something now that's what I'm saying because a lot of like well not a lot but some some some men are able to and I've seen this happen a million times before some men are able to hide or like finesse the fact that they lack some of the most essential things and then by the time by the time you understand that you've been been Boozled you know what I'm saying like it's too late you already got for you think that [ __ ] been spending the night that [ __ ] really be got there sleeping but see that but but listen one by one but see putting a pair of shoes every day but but this my thing right see women cuz people agree that like women are smarter than men right nah n I'm saying like book smart like right I'm just saying like educational wise I feel like women got more intuition than men I feel like women are more emotionally int I'mma tell you let me say this right quick before I say this I'mma tell you what men do bro and I'm go and give it up [ __ ] hate when they girl be right bro you that [ __ ] that's the only thing piss us off what pissed me off is a [ __ ] can make up something in their head and be right like how you guess that you gu right so wom got superp power now like that why I be trying to tell her like you right about a lot of that [ __ ] but some of that [ __ ] you making up so I ain't going to let you know when you're making it up I ain't going to let you know when you're right you know what I'm saying but you be right though this [ __ ] be like God but this my thing right women know what they be talking about but this my thing right what I'm saying if women are smarter than men so to speak and they believe this right you believe women smarter men I mean yeah okay so then how you get manipulated how you getting tricked then how you don't know a [ __ ] got two pair of jeans how you how you don't know yeah how you don't know that how you don't know a [ __ ] got two pair of jeans I feel like I feel like some women want to believe in the best of a [ __ ] that a [ __ ] might have another pair of jeans somewhere you know what I'm saying like but you only seeing two see I'm saying that what I'm saying like men are more L but but but the women the woman might think that the [ __ ] might not want to expose his hand right away so the two pair is what he's showing to test the water to see if it makes sense to expose the third pair see that's delusion cuz guess what you ain't never been around no rich [ __ ] that just wear two pair of jeans the [ __ ] that really got it they coming out with all this [ __ ] on especially if they like you and they trying to get you they ain't hiding nothing they putting everything on the table CU they trying to get you so a [ __ ] only let me test her with these two jeans come on you know this niggaer ain't got nothing you know it but in your mind you want to believe like I'm making get a good decision even though you know it's some [ __ ] like this [ __ ] ain't got nothing but in your mind you want to make yourself believe that he tricked me he got me he got over on me cuz you know women know man just like you said just like Bank said women got intuition you can't tell that this [ __ ] ain't got nothing yo you ain't know your baby daddy was broke before you had babies with him then you a had one with him you had another one with him yeah that [ __ ] be kind of hard like how can you say you got trick it's just hard to say you got yeah that [ __ ] when women turn into repeat offenders excuse that's excuse you know you know that's what you attract you know what I'm saying and and and and and and and no I just feel like women do make up a lot of [ __ ] in their head but how do you feel about when people say that you like what you like exactly so except that's what you like yeah and stop trying to change [ __ ] [ __ ] you don't like cuz listen bro I'm tell you bro I know like if I was to try to be anybody else but me I probably get a divorce like I'm me but I'm I mean I'm different but I'm me if that make sense what I'm saying like I'm totally different but I'm me like the mors and and [ __ ] that just boy don't do that don't say that and all that that's that's centic you get what I'm saying but I'm me so just imagine if I tried to be somebody else I don't think I would I don't think I don't think she'll go for it even though what me gets on [ __ ] nerd but I try to be something else it ain't going to work out how you a like that okay so let me ask y this then how do y'all feel about it when people say that let's just say say your significant person other person or whatever cheats on you and people say that it doesn't make sense to leave because all you g to do is hook up with another cheater because everybody I agree has their you know their I agree for women I don't know about yeah I agree for women though and I'm say I know that [ __ ] going to sound sexies or whatever they call it but I thought you about to say sexy yeah it ain't it ain't enough [ __ ] fact so you get your [ __ ] up to go find another [ __ ] who just got just got left by another female who he cheated on like it's just a Revol Circle it's just a rev it depend on what you want like cuz all men don't cheat the guys I'm just keeping it real but the guys that y'all yeah don't want be want y'all don't want them guys like I hear so many women be like he boring he didn't he didn't God sent this man fool yeah right but you looking at goddamn be over here wasting time with me you yeah you looking at scam them you know what saying who ain't boy a going ain't going ain't going a lot of [ __ ] ain't going they already know you all the man this this [ __ ] so [ __ ] up cuz most of Mo like most of the time the [ __ ] that's good good the dudes that's good dude women look at them as weird y cornball mhm so like so this nigga's a real man gentle he's a man he's a man you w look God bwood breath B you smokeing bwood cut out you want to hear you hear girl how you don't want to hear that that sound cuz cuz you addicted to the [ __ ] yeah for real and that you ain't never seen that you know your mama going to be like what she doing like y y y y your people goingon to disapprove of that that [ __ ] [ __ ] up bro where you get him from yeah H Square boy H Square Bo sh but lame here but he the one for you and and you right BR be some good ass men and it's funny cuz a lot of folk think and I I had to explain that to cuz you know whenever I do what's name podcast them folk think that [ __ ] real so it be like I be getting hate mail and I just be like damn like this sh a joke yeah you be doing like the yeah that [ __ ] hard though finess finess yeah so it be a joke but I be saying some real [ __ ] so it catch like and that's all this [ __ ] really is just getting emotional response from people you see what I'm saying and boy them folk be going crazy on this [ __ ] like and I'm just saying like man for the most part it's a lot of good [ __ ] out there it just they don't want them [ __ ] they don't like and crazy because they don't even see them [ __ ] like if you if you try to explain like a good [ __ ] they don't even them [ __ ] invisible they only talk about the [ __ ] that they like which is a small percent you see what I'm saying like every [ __ ] ain't like that but the [ __ ] that you probably going to want he like that you see what I'm saying okay I say this right I say this right a woman want a [ __ ] well not all women women want to pull up with a [ __ ] that other [ __ ] respect and and all the [ __ ] that's what it is bro and all the [ __ ] want yeah that's what I'm saying they want to pull yeah pull up with a niggga that ever that the [ __ ] respect and the [ __ ] want that's other than that man not a [ __ ] that's like okay that that that want them [ __ ] who the [ __ ] who like cuz she want to feel a slight sense of of that yeah yeah that you might can yeah like cuz if I feel like I'm the only one want you then no no thrill this ain't man no thrill I feel like they want a [ __ ] they want a niggga to get all the hoes but then they want to get the [ __ ] and make the niggaer not get no more ho damn like I want you to be able to get all the hoes but I don't want I be able to stop you from getting all the hoes to say that I was the one yeah when have you seen that done before that why I keep trying to add the the lates like you seen you you seen your whoever your cousin get cheated on your sister everybody in the circle every no not get cheated on your brother is a cheater your uncle your daddy your cousin your nephew you done help him he ain't here girl he was here all night you done help people cheat what makes you think you f to get the [ __ ] that don't if he D type of [ __ ] I'm not saying all men cheat I'm saying like certain type of [ __ ] is just outside and them [ __ ] it too many I ain't going lie bro I say I think all men do cheat I think you only as faithful as your options I feel like nigg if a [ __ ] ain't capable of cheat then he ain't and most [ __ ] is broke and working for that 30 hours of God damn 24 hours a day they can't cheat [ __ ] depend what your focus is man I'm like I know [ __ ] is [ __ ] in the factory that what I'm saying work them nigg who got there got time to to talk talk they work B out that [ __ ] the [ __ ] nigg super cheating them R [ __ ] they s right there on the they they did a study and show like the the Lesser [ __ ] make the more likely he is to be faithful versus the more money a [ __ ] make the more he you know that though come on but that's what I'm saying so I'm saying like any like what I say to women is like what [ __ ] don't want to be a king like if if if you walk up to a man on the street like but some that [ __ ] don't make some [ __ ] King though other [ __ ] make some I know but I'm just saying like I the reason why I use the term King is because like okay [ __ ] what king had one Queen and no conine just for real like what king just had one wife one and he just was n that [ __ ] [ __ ] everything boy it was a [ __ ] in China boy this [ __ ] if you want to work next to the emperor you had to chop your dick off cuz he had so many hoes you had to chop your dick off to work in the castle in the padet cuz he ain't want you to godamn cuz you know she I know you ain't [ __ ] exactly but he a [ __ ] na here he going to [ __ ] nothing in here cuz guess why [ __ ] I cuz my my my son going to be a Heir so you can't like it ain't no practic test and all DNA test and [ __ ] so you leave your dick at the door come work in the [ __ ] so just think like all I'm saying is like you walk up to any average man and be like hey you you want to be king king of Atlanta for the day what [ __ ] going be like nah like hell yeah I want to cuz Men We value that [ __ ] we value power and Prestige and status and [ __ ] like that ambition you see I'm saying so you saying you saying basically like Ain a [ __ ] if a [ __ ] in a [ __ ] in the right situation to go yeah yeah give a [ __ ] 100 Mil boy what that [ __ ] dick GNA fall off F 100 million and everybody know it everybody know you got 100 milon women know you got 100 million my debate my only debate you got it might and it might be a lot more rare that just mean don't no loyalty exists nowhere for nobody but that philosophy I'm just saying with that philosophy then n but but but but but I got I got I gotta disagree on that because loyalty ain't to me loyalty ain't defined by sex yeah what you talking about to say I'm say he said he just saying get some [ __ ] I ain't saying like leave my wife [ __ ] oh you saying like that I'm saying you some [ __ ] I'm going to play I'm to I'm not I'm not no advocate for Cheetos or none of that but I'm saying is I get what he's saying yeah for real am I Tripp it what I'm saying he's saying like you never know what position you get in and where you start to see yourself at when you start when other people start to see you different but I can't I get what you saying no I I hear what he saying I'm just saying that you that's really it for real so okay so let me let me rephrase then so money will change you but do y'all think loyalty do you think a person if a person cheat on you they're disloyal to you if if y'all if y ain't got the agreement don't cheat H if the agreement if if if if if if if if you cheated on your dude right do you feel like you disloyal to him keep it real yeah I do it depends on how you unless unless unless unless she has an understanding with him that you can cheat n it ain't no understanding with that type of [ __ ] like if I'm with you no it's an understand some people have open relationship with you or whatever then like I'm with you if we've agreed to be together or if we've agreed to do this [ __ ] or however the [ __ ] whatever like say for instance um what if you done did everything else to do everything you took care you got them you there for them they sick they locked up anything you there right but you [ __ ] are you disloyal or unfaith both both unless some some one says you I I know that you're cheating and I don't give look the word see I look that up that's a good I'm telling you look up the word loyalty Loy look at the word loyalty and look up unfaith I think we did this one time on on another podcast on on big facts but are you disloyal or Unfaithful both Unfaithful both that's cold right now right Elite cuz a [ __ ] can do some disloyal [ __ ] to you and be faithful to you disloyal means failing to be loyal to a person or body to which one has obligations but loyalty Unfaithful but loyalty the word faithfulness is in loyalty what's what's lloy faithfulness in a steadfast face of Temptation renounced desert or betray see I'm getting a whole different what's name I don't know strong feeling of support or Alliance thank you that's what that that's Unfaithful is which one you looked up I think this sh Oxford yeah this Oxford I'm saying what's the name loyer you look up loyalty all right loyalty is what a strong feeling of support or Alliance so if you ain't broke the support of Alli or Alliance the alliance could be no the alliance could it's black the alliance the alliance could be that we ain't going to cheat I'm saying we go down that rabbit hole huh we can go down that rabbit holead but if someone does something the respect to make you feel betrayed then it violates loyalty and faithfulness what okay Faith that's all I'm saying of being fa yeah that's like say that's like saying just on some homeboy [ __ ] all right this homeboy always did everything right but then snitch who he told him you see what I'm saying though but but see it's different because like faithfulness is almost like crazy you know that way that's that's the new [ __ ] out here now like [ __ ] ain't told on me who he told on [ __ ] like that's the new [ __ ] that [ __ ] crazy and what's [ __ ] is disgusting I'm so glad I'm so glad I'm a comedian y boy I ain't even got to worry about this [ __ ] I don't even give a [ __ ] about this [ __ ] like boy I'm so glad I ain't even like even cuz it's like man this [ __ ] different bro like I this [ __ ] just way different I never thought that I see today that this [ __ ] would be like you know what I mean [ __ ] R and just keep rapping and keep you know what I mean this [ __ ] crazy for real 2024 so that's why I'm so we I listen man and I always take the [ __ ] to weird space because my mind just be weird sometimes y'all my mind be weird sometime but you see how we create AI right it's Dam nck can can grow to be a life for because AI going to be AI like robots going to be able to make other robots right M it's like a birth go hold up hold up being H me out all right so that's that's basically not humans I guess we're humans not that's basically another form of humanity right if they if they just go to building [ __ ] they we got our own fact we building [ __ ] and they multiply multiply multiply right who's to say that another planet didn't make us and the same [ __ ] hold on hold on hold on let me let me get this off the same little little plug ups and [ __ ] we putting in them they just electric they could have found some [ __ ] like brains organs and all that it's the same [ __ ] cuz it's from a different planet right it's still got damn [ __ ] this uh this at the top [ __ ] this the hard drive no real [ __ ] though am I tripping we got a hard drive computer we got we got a whole our bodies are basically computers right yeah they work like them similar cars if you think about a car car got engine who [ __ ] huh who controls all that what you mean who controls it we probably ran nor Atlanta philosophy that [ __ ] making s though J yeah it ain't but it listen bro we so if AI run off right now who's to say Humanity didn't run off so how they ain't find us if they was in control of us I'm saying we we can we can find a them [ __ ] bucking with sticks and [ __ ] they they them folk gret them folk they [ __ ] they they what they is now I ever heard little Fishbowl Theory what's that basically like the aliens tray the humanity and they just watch us I believe need that bro fish bowl the like like like you know how you just go and look at the fish tank the fish don't know you outside that [ __ ] they don't know what's going on outside the [ __ ] so it's a theory where they say like aliens created us and they just monitor us they just watch yeah I believe they just be watching us and [ __ ] I feel like it's too many of us for that [ __ ] to be going on what bro listen but but but how many shit's on the game you play the game right now you play a whole universe a whole world this [ __ ] is a real world in the yeah that a making [ __ ] you put [ __ ] on your you D near in that [ __ ] I just did a virtual reality [ __ ] over by um by um how me and Shante and dating went that [ __ ] that [ __ ] is real when you put them [ __ ] on your body you DN there you in there yeah the metaverse all that [ __ ] I don't know I think I think is we even woke now go rabbit B even W like [ __ ] you dreams and [ __ ] feel so real now come back so many times for me every day like I think I'm glitched up but you right but listen I had a dream and woke up and had to realize I had kids and [ __ ] I had a dream that I felt like [ __ ] I had a dream that I felt like I was there for like three months like I was living a whole life and all kind of [ __ ] Apartments trapping and all kind of [ __ ] and I woke up [ __ ] I had to be like where the [ __ ] I'm at I thought this [ __ ] was fake I thought what I was at was fake and the dream was real not real [ __ ] yeah that when they say you tapping in you can't determine well you know black folk about to get piles and [ __ ] super piles and [ __ ] huh Black Folk about to get super piles and [ __ ] y'all a see that what's yeah boy they saying Black Folk DNA DNA about to unlock and all kind of [ __ ] about to happen boy I just want to be a to fly and [ __ ] super speed I do think the Matrix I do think the Matrix [ __ ] was real though I do think we plug in and plug out when we go to sleep and wake up can't tell me bro I know I know I be glitching bro I ain't the only [ __ ] glitching y'all [ __ ] just don't be keeping it real [ __ ] just be trying to act like it don't exist I see everything you know what I'm saying you cuz with that fish sandwich yeah man what we doing scream about right it's all good man we appreciate you pulling up the big facts you know what I'm saying let everybody know where they can tap in with you and what you got coming up man look man y'all can tap in with me on YouTube Facebook Instagram Tik Tok everything all the same JQ health is cerski GQ Health J us s t q e H3 FF man the kid that did man you know what I mean if you think only those who think like that think like that man so yeah there it is check us out. bfa.com subscribe like comment share all that on the bigf network salute salute	I had sat down like um my turning my main turning point though was and this is trueu I had went to Miami for new years and [ __ ] so I had on took a I thought was edible so I ate a edible but I don't know what for issue was like it it had to be like strs or something yeah cuz boy I had the worst trip of my life [ __ ] like I'm I'm I'm zooed you know you you know when you get too high you think you about to die and [ __ ] that's what I was on I'm like well I'm I'm G I'm out of here so so I walk to the gas station to get some milk drunk drunk drunk a gallon of milk that man that [ __ ] only wors when you swallow dope no no that milk workk any natural high and that milk work that sh why the [ __ ] y'all ain't G me milk that day I was TR to die want to see it you milk what you talking about let no El kill you bro you just tripping but that how that [ __ ] had me that [ __ ] do that [ __ ] take you to a psychedelic listen boy that [ __ ] had listen I swear to God on everything I got back to the room after drinking the milk [ __ ] I lay	-8	8	-2	I had the worst trip of my life, like I'm I'm I'm zooed you know you know when you get too high you think you about to die and that's what I was on I'm like well I'm I'm G I'm out of here	let no El kill you bro you just tripping	-8,9,-3	2,-5,6	-8	9	-3	2	-5	6
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-Xsjx4VTfU	4,038	q-Xsjx4VTfU	2024-06-27 00:00:00	[Music] this is big fact Network [Music] exclusive live from the culture lab it's time for big facts big bank is here baby Jade is here DJ Scream is here we're welcoming today a comedian that's very funny you see him online give it up for scam lightly on big facts what's up what's up what's up bro you good man yeah man I have made it man so what you say you scam your way on the big F tell tell us how you got on big F I want to hear the whole story yeah so look man I got damn I had hit bank account but goddamn Bank was so cool about we worked some [ __ ] out and then goam you know I mean I owe them so so this a transaction yeah this transaction I just [ __ ] with you no man for real like shout out my manager uh y sh man brother and you know I mean we been had linked up like I came and did skit on y'all um on the podcast what that was like about a year ago yeah so U man just kept working kept grinding and boom back here so is your Origins comedy or what was you doing before that no I was in some whole other [ __ ] some whole other [ __ ] you can talk about or you can't talk about I can't allegedly I say allegedly but now for real I was like uh I was um in the streets just like I ain't G to say everybody else but pretty much you know I demographic I came from the same [ __ ] PIV it and I was always doing I was always like stupid my whole life I can say that I was slow I was slow so I been I've been should have step in comedy but I kind of running from it you know what I mean cuz I Ain I ain't I was I wasn't in no position to be laughed at at the time so when I finally took it serious sat down two months that [ __ ] was out of here at what point did you know you was funny man since I was little I ain't gonna lie like I said I always been a CL clown I always been a [ __ ] roast and always I I I had to fight [ __ ] I roast so good you know what I mean so I always had that aspect to me so I just when I really took it serious like man I'm going to do this comedy [ __ ] like full-fledged nothing else I'm sit down and do it like I said that sh was out of here but I I will say like I I do feel like it chose me instead of me choosing it you know I mean do you think it's important to be able to do like other other types of comedies like AC in the movie Stand Up and all that type of stuff too or or or or is it if you're a one lane type of comedian is that cool in your opinion I I mean I feel like whatever you comfortable with see what I'm saying because a lot of people ain't comfortable with that stage you know I mean I didn't did all of it so like I don't know like for me I didn't get all of it you know I mean but for everybody I like stand up ain't for everybody you know I mean that [ __ ] a whole different monster you know I me why you say that because it's like like it's [ __ ] that you got to know like you got to know time you know I mean you got to know punch lines you got to know how to build a joke up you know you got to sit traps type [ __ ] I mean so it's like an art front for like it's actually some people that probably ain't even funny in real life but they comedians you see what I'm saying cuz they just know the art of telling jokes ver being just naturally funny like you might be naturally funny and get on stage and can't you that's true just how some of these rap [ __ ] be lying boom same way but they sound good exactly that [ __ ] sound good [ __ ] make [ __ ] sound good you go get some money yeah how it go what's the inspiration for your skits uh cuz a lot of it seem like day-to-day just man really just like life and um me like because and I say that because [ __ ] I'm damn near like a psych patient like you know I mean my mama was a paranoid schizophrenic so I come from like my mind be racing so this [ __ ] like therapy for me I just get to get out [ __ ] that's just in my mind all day which is some stupid [ __ ] that I just be thinking about so now I get to relay that on on on camera so let me answer this so just going back to what you said about your mom how was it growing up in a household with somebody that was battling mental illness like that uh definitely a struggle definitely definitely a struggle like uh I want to say my mom probably was your dad there yeah yeah actually my dad raised me like um okay RP my dad um he actually like like when they split my dad took me so I ra with my dad you know what I mean like okay and and he was a old man like my dad was born 1929 he was in World War II real [ __ ] on God everything my dad born in 1929 [ __ ] in World War II so I so so I be having more on God how how old was your daddy when he had you he had me he was like 50 something okay that that add up yeah yeah yeah okay yeah I'm talking about dead that [ __ ] was in World War II so so he put certain mors and [ __ ] in a [ __ ] that I know people ain't even got no more you know what I mean so that's why people be thinking I sound how I do because you know what I mean like I was raised with a Elder you know I mean that [ __ ] was a real Elder you see what I'm saying so with him he was like the um coherent parent of the group you see what I'm saying my mama was wild Young illness type [ __ ] so my daddy was like the one that took us and raised us you see what I'm saying but growing up in the house with that [ __ ] yeah that [ __ ] was a struggle I think that's why I get my comedic comedic side front cuz my mama she Ain have no fut she'll say anything to anybody at any time and like people didn't know she was you know I mean she was like she had the illness or whatever and they thought that she was trying to be funny or like but it was funny though it was funny though I can't C like my MMA was funny as hell though like rip she was funny as hell she Ain what she'll say anything out M like a like a child worse like a adult that know better but still say some [ __ ] like like for real like your homeboy might come over there she might just look at your homeboy and say some [ __ ] like I bet your dick little out of nowhere real [ __ ] where you from originally originally I was born in tusi Alabama I was born in my grandma house 46 yeah I went to school down there oh you did yeah they told you with the locals oh I'm cool with a couple of them shouts the street of Frank Walkin some of them so was your daddy a part of the experiment that they did down there no uh no my dad U he was from Chicago so he had came later but yeah Tusk experiments like a lot of my family members and [ __ ] was affected by that like d yeah did they ever give them reparations for that I think they just now I think they just yeah yeah they did yeah they did yeah they they got reparation for it but it was only like a small group of them left by time they did get to him what you think about this [ __ ] cat you watch that cat we [ __ ] yeah hell what you think about that I think it's a lot of truth to it like I don't know I don't know them folk person I don't want to say too much cuz godamn I ain't trying to get black ball before I get I just talking [ __ ] but now I I I definitely I see that [ __ ] here like you know I mean it's like a you know kind of like a little pecking order gatekeeping type [ __ ] like people gatekeep in all rounds no matter how big small so I think every city got that [ __ ] and then you get to the industry they got their own Gatekeepers so or you feel like they be trying to hold [ __ ] out you think you think that's possible yeah well I ain't going to say it I I think if you weak if you weak it'll stop you like [ __ ] like you know what I mean if you don't say [ __ ] I'm make it anyway know I mean it can scare you off and you just like I seen some with um the Wayne brother he was like somebody said something to him and he start doing stand up for like 10 years so that [ __ ] can really you know what I mean shake you in the wrong way you the whole body if you let it you know I mean but I feel like if you're a [ __ ] that come from nothing I truly feel like what's for you is for you though that's true I don't know it might be harder for you I don't feel like no n can keep you out yeah it might keep you out of they Circle yeah that's what said they situation yeah but this [ __ ] too big man you can make a way man I be [ __ ] excuses I feel but I I I feel the way you feel but I also feel like if the right [ __ ] sprays your name then it's going to be I don't want to say next to Impossible but it can be super [ __ ] overly extremely difficult in mostu but it's it's it still B down to B down to how hard you go look at the [ __ ] that they do spray the [ __ ] going hard about this [ __ ] man yeah but [ __ ] look how I look that's true look look at the [ __ ] who it's a it's a it's a lot of casual to that [ __ ] what I'm saying it's a lot of casualty to that [ __ ] because I feel like you laid down at the end of the day that's true that what I said what I said like if you weak you going to fold you going to fold in on yourself that [ __ ] really be mental like if somebody get in your head and you don't get that [ __ ] out Bo like [ __ ] what's the [ __ ] name B Simon that [ __ ] went what number one FK got in that [ __ ] head he Ain like performing to his best n they ain't getting they ain't getting his head he want it he W it he W it yeah sometimes CU I I don't really know a lot about that [ __ ] I just know R talked about him in the song he said like Ben Timmons I ain't going nowhere or something yeah he had a hell of a agent he had a hell of a agent they giving him money based on what they thought he might be able to do what I'm saying he ain't never do it though but the [ __ ] it paid him based off of his potential exactly but he got man he got gunshot BR the man wouldn't even shoot the basketball man that's in your head he wouldn't even take a shot n he ain't shoo bro cuz he wasn't going to make it man he didn't shoot it he could he could he didn't even drive I'm just saying if okay let's take Ben Simmons maybe I'm being in a homer and let's take Ant-Man all right Antman shoot that's what I was saying last night what I said what I said if you weak I'm saying like he mentally KN up it's you right I see what you say you say take the shot forget that like an is from the west side that dog I know to do matter [ __ ] lay down everywhere it's a [ __ ] laying down on every side of town same how you name one [ __ ] that stood up I bet we can a fire [ __ ] that done laid down laid down [ __ ] [ __ ] up Z they ain't do nothing to Zion he did it to himself I mean who Z the big dude who be smashing the porn or whatever Zion Williamson the boy can jump though like boy can jump yeah you getting paid to jump jumping don't win championships and games but it's early too though early super early he got he got a minute man he still got he got time to like when did he get signed once you he been in the league six years that ain't ear I been in about six years yeah I'm thinking like three n he been playing hurt two of them oh yeah that's what it is that's that's what it is that's is my opinion when when it comes to like the athlete [ __ ] some people just ain't got it but that's what I'm saying like people I think a lot of people put emphasis on it like that [ __ ] just everywhere that [ __ ] ain't that [ __ ] real rare but if but if you're not it and then on top of that you don't have self-esteem then like you're going you're going to flop every time you going to f in on yourself like you going to be your worst enemy you going to godamn you're going to implode facts hey what what a character scam come from man this [ __ ] so crazy so the the interview that future did with Kevin Sam I watched that interview I like well that [ __ ] don't give a [ __ ] about [ __ ] just just his demeanor how he was just like yeah I me a [ __ ] by like I like but this [ __ ] just so nonchalant so I was like damn what if the scammer was like that like [ __ ] just pull all kind of moves don't give a [ __ ] about the consequences so and it's crazy I watched I I the interview was on TV and I just like hey I want to shoot a skit by the Atlanta scammer and then in like 10 minutes I just he like he need a name I was like [ __ ] scam like Le oh like scam likely I'm like no not likely but like Le like l e e so I just ran with that [ __ ] and that [ __ ] just stuck so hard that people like people don't even call me by my name they just call me scam introdu you fact so I like [ __ ] scam so I just ran with it man and that [ __ ] just naturally like took off because I feel like you know that's what we living in anyway what you think about SC game I mean [ __ ] is though you go with your move like you had if it made sense yeah yeah [ __ ] me too if it made sense like I feel like I did everything it is to do in the streets like everything like a [ __ ] that played all positions in that [ __ ] I had been a fake ass little pimp before godamn s everything it is I did everything so [ __ ] why not riding around that man we was making no money man but that [ __ ] him [ __ ] the hard [ __ ] listen [ __ ] listen sh but then the crazy thing is just talking to them folk like when you talk like real PE and [ __ ] they be like you got to coach the [ __ ] talk I ain't got the patience to keep talking to no [ __ ] about some [ __ ] just keep on telling you some [ __ ] that you should know [ __ ] that I go get me some drugs or something baby this [ __ ] slow oh when with that turning point though huh like the Turn Point like man I'm just feel cuz you always legit now right yo for sure why he looking around I won't be on big face for real no I am though we in the turtle what it was though like you know [ __ ] I ain't going to lie but you know the pandemic had [ __ ] boom [ __ ] was eating good like you know I mean so I had enough money to where I was like damn I can kind of ease up off this you know I mean this [ __ ] cuz at first like I said I I never wanted to do comedy because of that like I mean I was dealing with [ __ ] in the street I ain't really want no [ __ ] to feel like I was no funny [ __ ] you know what I mean when you dealing with certain amount of money so once I once I felt like I made enough money then I was like [ __ ] I can kind of start doing comedy like you know doing my skits and [ __ ] so like I said I had sat down like um my turning my main turning point though was and this is trueu I had went to Miami for new years and [ __ ] so I had on took a I thought was edible so I ate a edible but I don't know what for issue was like it it had to be like strs or something yeah cuz boy I had the worst trip of my life [ __ ] like I'm I'm I'm zooed you know you you know when you get too high you think you about to die and [ __ ] that's what I was on I'm like well I'm I'm G I'm out of here so so I walk to the gas station to get some milk drunk drunk drunk a gallon of milk that man that [ __ ] only wors when you swallow dope no no that milk workk any natural high and that milk work that sh why the [ __ ] y'all ain't G me milk that day I was TR to die want to see it you milk what you talking about let no El kill you bro you just tripping but that how that [ __ ] had me that [ __ ] do that [ __ ] take you to a psychedelic listen boy that [ __ ] had listen I swear to God on everything I got back to the room after drinking the milk [ __ ] I lay on the bed I'm like I'm going to die I just Clos my eyes I'm in the universe I'm just in the universe like but I can see my body on the bed with my ey closed I owe my eyes I'm back in the room close my eyes I'm in the universe so I start seeing myself on stage with a microphone like that was astro Projection what when you had that where you supposed to be at though that's what I was saying like but I think what it is though I think it's it's like a unified Feld and you see all the possibilities that you can be right so that was me in the future looking back at me like see what I'm saying even with Dreams yeah exactly like [ __ ] was telling me come on like do what we on so I'm like man I'm going to do this [ __ ] then I got back to Atlanta boy my cousin was standing with him but [ __ ] tow tow a hole in my head thing gone you yeah why part me empty [ __ ] gone all [ __ ] gone you know I mean see make sense yeah I see see yeah we CH we chopped up and [ __ ] y chopped it up yeah I mean you was just like no regular chop up like you know I mean but you know I mean like like what what the excuse was why he broke in your [ __ ] no I say he was standing [ __ ] that [ __ ] a break in that [ __ ] lit there I'm saying where the excuse was taking out with the [ __ ] uh I don't even remember so about like he probably felt like I owed him or some [ __ ] yeah but it probably wasn't that you know what I mean but like he was staying with you and you owed him it be like that sometime the [ __ ] kind of [ __ ] but but you just know like you know I mean like [ __ ] was just getting out the fed you know [ __ ] PTSD like you know what I mean home to steep so you know what I mean home you doing stand up yeah yeah I didn't I didn't did stand up I did step away from it though cuz like I said it's it's so much politics and that [ __ ] and that [ __ ] ain't paying nothing they think it ain't paying nothing I got a little something for you want do [ __ ] show yeah we September I when is it April May damn that's May May 4th Saturday May 4 okay you know I got I gota get back on stage that [ __ ] A that [ __ ] ain't just like no just you know I mean that [ __ ] real real you got to get back up St you just got to get in your bag right yeah yeah but but it's like like I said like it's about time so like that's why you do it every night so you can got damn sharpen your your skills no we had um we had my man on here man don't you you got to get you gotta got damn we just had Henry up here right oh yeah yeah Henry my boy yeah Henry said the same [ __ ] like you got to exercise [ __ ] going and 100 50 people rooms 25 people in the room you still gota go work your material even if you comeing in [ __ ] working on us yeah for real people you got to work that material bro if a n GNA do this [ __ ] n gota do it all the way no but see that's what I was saying like so I noticed like if you try to do that and the content one of them going to suffer see what I'm saying so why you say that because like the amount of time that you got to take like like [ __ ] what's her name did it country Wayne did it but he he I'm saying like them [ __ ] beat but but what I'm saying like once they did one of them surer I ain't going to say like the quality of the content serer but the amount that you putting out going to go down you got to balance it at that point you got to balance it yeah I know it but I'm saying like far as like especially like now because [ __ ] gate you see what I'm saying so it's still like I ain't like [ __ ] don't like internet comedians for real that I to say really respect yeah exactly like you get chance pause edit you get a chance do all that [ __ ] want that [ __ ] on the spot but but it's the thing though it's like she like they it's kind of like the old mindset like how [ __ ] was Pass Out CD ain't no more CD so [ __ ] don't know how to transition you see what I'm saying so it's kind of like that like they be want you to just only do stand up rooms and [ __ ] but it's like I got the internet why would I go touch a whole another see what I'm saying like you can reach way more still though them [ __ ] but [ __ ] Ain't Going [ __ ] [ __ ] don't really internet comedian oh but iig who like being the trench you know what I'm saying the people do like I love it yeah but I'm saying like comedians who gotdamn know where they got it from gotam getting them $20 nights godamn [ __ ] [ __ ] that got a drink you know saying [ __ ] get a [ __ ] [ __ ] like them nigg feel like they got it out the mud but that's still like a yeah [ __ ] up um perspective but I get it you know what I'm saying for what they feel like what they put in every comedian should put in but [ __ ] something it's the luck of the [ __ ] gu what I got this [ __ ] out the mud too I got this [ __ ] with a phone and a goddamn ring light a cheat one at that godamn exactly you know I mean cord breaking off that [ __ ] I had to wire that b back together put some tape around it so it's the same [ __ ] it's just like I said it's people perspective like you know what I mean and me honestly I ain't going to give a [ __ ] what another [ __ ] think about me like [ __ ] I ain't in it to be you know I mean I mean do you feel do you feel sometime like man yeah I need I need to goam go and get in that I need to go on and Mer that part so then let them know I can do it do you ever ever get but I did I ain't going to lie I did you see what I'm saying like I performed at a you know what I mean like a at a high stage what you know I mean [ __ ] some big dogs from the city like boy you got it know I mean it just like I said that [ __ ] wasn't making no sense for me and it's taking away from some [ __ ] that do make money so what I'm saying like I'm making money on Instagram and Facebook and [ __ ] like that so I'm making way more money than I would be trying to do taking a risk anything $200 [ __ ] you got to get into it with anything n that [ __ ] your security none of that [ __ ] yeah that [ __ ] A you been spank the [ __ ] on camera for what hell cuz the nigg [ __ ] G they move yeah cuz I ain't going to think I'm black out a whole another side be like oh n that [ __ ] don't even want that turn the big to workout what it name big Q got turn the big Q onig ass yeah I don't even want to play n but you get what I'm saying though yeah that [ __ ] that that don't make sense to be cuz I went gotam I would just say if I I want to be a rapper right there I would do my [ __ ] online I wouldn't be at no open mics that [ __ ] dangerous yeah what I'm saying like [ __ ] like like you not going to gain no fans from that [ __ ] like I had a homeboy yes you are no you yes you are fans from what okay from from like open m stand up talk open mik rapping or you talking about stand up comedian stand up comedian I'm saying you make no money off no you might not make no money off of it but you like people will put your name with your face and it'll like help increase your family I agree that but well you got to get on the internet the internet no the internet is definitely over it but I'm saying touching the people is is going to make a difference also but most of the people outside [ __ ] but then what I say though like other crew y'all rapping my bad J y'all rapping other crew other open mic and you f then we got to get into it cuz you f yeah how this [ __ ] go comedian comedian okay we on the same show together [ __ ] mad at me cuz I just was funny as hell y that'll get you [ __ ] up real talk like cuz then they ain't going to want to put you on their show you see what I'm saying because every like I feel like most comedians everybody want to feel like the funnyest [ __ ] in the room just like okay a artist right let's say if two artists in the room and one get to playing his music the other [ __ ] going to get be ready for him to cut him music off so he can play his [ __ ] like come on man r that [ __ ] up so I can play my [ __ ] my [ __ ] F like your [ __ ] cool but my [ __ ] so it's the same thing you know mean it's the same [ __ ] and doing open mics [ __ ] steal your jokes I had a [ __ ] steal my whole [ __ ] and do the [ __ ] the next day because I was like I ain't know you see what I'm saying so they we was talking about that yeah so they'll tell you like don't do open mics and comedy cuz writers and [ __ ] be in the crowd to Ste [ __ ] jokes remix so it's a conspiracy yeah GNA remix your [ __ ] yeah like he ain't going nowh with that he funny I see what he Tred to do I'm show how to do it like your delivery or something might be off what I'm saying you how to do you a real funny ass [ __ ] get your [ __ ] too fast I know how to do it I know how to perform the joke better than and then boom got some of they [ __ ] with your [ __ ] that [ __ ] is that [ __ ] out of here TV so it just this [ __ ] just like I said sh just like a rap game you had to skit one time about like dating in Atlanta and [ __ ] what's your like what's your take on dating in Atlanta man have fun God damn don't take nothing serious like this [ __ ] ain't serious out here for real what you mean I feel like this [ __ ] a big ass high school for real I mean like Atlanta man I I would me personally I wouldn't like for love and no [ __ ] out here like for real like I feel like if you ain't already got it like new generation New Age day this [ __ ] over with like if you ain't already got love and marriage and wife and all that [ __ ] over with in Atlanta as of today it's a rap what you saying in a certain age group or just period or just period because everybody mind mind frames have change you see what I'm saying everybody mind is right now she it's okay to hurt whoever is long as is you happy like everybody feel like everything Justified as long as I'm looking out for me and I'm happy then she it's whatever it's cold real you saying no no consideration for nobody nobody if you look at everything everybody talking about online and all the toxicity [ __ ] everybody really just out for self and it's okay like like everybody promoe it's okay to be for yourself like no team ball no nothing I ain't going to lie I I help a lot of people though but I I I I've been on that lately like [ __ ] that I got to figure me out cuz that's the way the world live bro yeah but that's what I'm saying saying that the way the world live like whoever with me like this [ __ ] we doing yeah yeah this me figuring me out I can't worry about goddamn going play goddamn tennis yeah you know what I'm saying cuz my my buddy want to play tennis all day ain't no money in tennis bro for me I need to be right here doing this [ __ ] so I got to do what serve me I don't I don't knock that so that's why that's why I'm saying like the D SC sh like that like [ __ ] ain't nobody really going to stick it out with no [ __ ] till it's too late you see what I'm saying like that's how I feel anyway from my experience and your ass ain't lit ain't got nothing for you so you saying like the ho going anyway going gone they gone get the elevator with that SM that B that b he don't know what you say oh yeah really that that Clyde Christian but you know what I mean CDE be G out of here what's that come on what floor you stay on oh seven whole time [ __ ] paying for the [ __ ] all kind of [ __ ] tricky you don't think it's a circle though I think you don't think it's the circle like it's like that circle of people he right see see see you you speaking from where you at he's saying like outside the circle is different though but I but but this the thing I say with men it might be you see what I'm saying like for the for the men that's outside that Circle they don't know what we talking about see what I'm saying they don't but all the women know because they all going to get brought into that Circle see what I'm saying all women been out somewhere and a [ __ ] didn't caught they ey [ __ ] with some money and they gone they gone cuz Atlanta like Atlanta like people it's a wom that it's a wom that be it's a women that be up in Chastain Park at some [ __ ] Neil Soul jazz [ __ ] that be out the way yeah you talking about a different Circle CC you talking about the hook you talking about the Hooka Circle no uh I'm talking about all walk the [ __ ] is the hookah Circle CC the hookah lounges and [ __ ] n I'm talking about all no but I mean it's it's people like it's people that go to the hookah lounges the hookah Circle or whatever they got their own money that's not giv a Fu about what another [ __ ] got but it's not that it's not also just about money see that's what like I ain't saying like what it is SC it's just that stuff on like it's just that stuff like you know certain people got that stuff right so what I'm saying is like and the reason why I say that the reason why I say that because I I watched like when I was a young [ __ ] my partner this [ __ ] had everything this [ __ ] uh drop head godamn benty truck all this [ __ ] I done watch every type of woman from every type of Walk of Life come in the [ __ ] spot and he tell them folks straight up the [ __ ] make Ann hey look you ain't going to suck like at the end of night you can get up and get the [ __ ] out and I Ain never see not one woman get up and leave like got me [ __ ] up and I seen the [ __ ] with doctors lawyers them them so-called Neo Soul [ __ ] I ain't never seen not one of them get up and say no [ __ ] up never by them folks oh now you put yourself in that position now what he saying is listen it's hoes everywhere yeah I'm talk about scientist nurse doctor D judges whatever hoes women going to be women some of them but what he's saying is he's saying the on they don't even allow theyel to pull up on bro that's what I'm saying cuz we talk it don't matter what walk a life it's still a select few women she can be outside and still won't pull up on you I know some [ __ ] who ain't going I know a lot of them going but some of them ain't going but see that's a lot of them that ain't going some of them ain't going I'mma keep it 100 he take that right [ __ ] but some of still but okay what what you said take cuz we all know son like damn ain't nobody like everybody compar like but you ain't nobody [ __ ] who we know [ __ ] nobody but like you said you said take that right [ __ ] right now knowing how competitive Atlanta is you don't think that [ __ ] somewh in the crowd know he in the crowd but the thing about it is she know that but it like I a listen listen I'm going to V with some of them CU I know some of them bro just because and that's then the one to elevate too yes like we like it's it's like going every circle of [ __ ] all my budy is sniper diapers yeah so we going to know who done smashed her like what about her like [ __ ] send your picture around yeah that what [ __ ] do like who this is if I DM you a girl you know what that mean who this is yeah oh that oh that you send that [ __ ] around to the [ __ ] who already who making them announcements tell them to all them [ __ ] who make them announcements they going to come back and be like I don't know her I don't know her I don't know her I don't know her she good she might be that over there in the other crowd now with what you saying go ahead but but see that's what I'm saying I'm not saying like all cuz it's impossible to say all of course of course it's a couple most yeah of course it's a couple Butterfly by The hornest Nest but [ __ ] [ __ ] I ain't going to stand by and let the [ __ ] sting me I'm getting the [ __ ] on [ __ ] them butterflies you see what I'm saying so that's all I'm saying like yeah [ __ ] can't it's hard to deci what I said on Instagram standing beside them it's hard to deci which one is which so and I like man and this thing I think think Atlanta is kind of like this [ __ ] [ __ ] you up this [ __ ] [ __ ] you up cuz it's just like the Lifey like man ain't no I ain't really seen no place like Atlanta like this [ __ ] really is the mecca of like Black Culture to me you know what I mean like I feel like [ __ ] Atlanta is like Legend like even if you just staying in Atlanta right now this [ __ ] Legend like this a legend this a legendary City so the [ __ ] that go on here it go on everywhere like that you know what I mean so it's just the the level of competition and you got you you got to be a dog to be out this [ __ ] for real yeah yeah you got to be you got to have some real dog in you for real and most and most people ain't got I ain't going to say most [ __ ] most about people that's outside but now I'm talking about even the [ __ ] working 9 to5 that don't even go nowhere and [ __ ] they can't even keep up like but you know that [ __ ] ain't but a job and and paying bill you G have to do some you GNA have to do something something he ain't gonna be able to just work come home pay bills and be straight unless your ass stay somewhere in caning or something but down here oh no we close to the city but your ass through so you think you ever lock in like on some relationship [ __ ] man I have goddamn go somewhere else not in that like how I used to be seen so much you Tain yeah there's always exception that can't I believe exceptions to the rule I don't know bro I didn't had a [ __ ] in the bed we finished and it be like you just made me commit adultery I'm like what wait what I didn't know you was married damn yeah that a know what I'm saying like a boy say that to everybody so that [ __ ] hit different like damn B that [ __ ] crazy it could be just bad in small towns though they just more sneaky and quiet going I trust that because I know Atlanta exists see what I'm saying so you ain't being brought to Atlanta and tested then you don't know see what I'm saying like she might just be like that she ain't got the opportunity see you ain't got no opportunity to be no hope everybody your daddy the preacher everybody know you in town so you Ain had no opportunity to be no hope bring her to Atlanta unleash her and then she got what she TV see see sh you see on TV right there like right there magic and [ __ ] will try you like nigg be like come here [ __ ] [ __ ] who you would never thought tell you come here tell you come here come here it going to [ __ ] you up it's going to blow your mind man I didn't seen that [ __ ] but that [ __ ] and I tell [ __ ] like man don't bring your girl up here dog don't bring your girl over here man if you if you coming from my of town you come man leave don't bring your old lady man try to move up it with her but none of that [ __ ] dead she just can't do this no more none of they can't do this no more it's too hard I think you should you think bring your girl to Atlanta you going to lock all the way in you need to know what you locking in with yeah they do it us us a woman a woman a woman will bring you around all her badass friends to see what you on yeah they do that [ __ ] to us yeah yeah yeah yeah I go yeah so expose her take her to uh you break around your don't take a center with a friends y'all go have fun n but look you take around your R po but get the poping all that sh man sh going to be in the air like this here over with what facts like they'll come back cuz a lot like I don't really know him like that anyway tell I don't really know I met him for real what we've been together two years it ain't that serious we do that take your serious like like I telling about my buddy right P who had had the bag listen man like you might be [ __ ] that really like me they might think I'm handsome but they not coming home with me but at the end of the night like if if shl say hey what's up they over with yeah I had to respect it I had like okay [ __ ] it I got to get on my grind like I ain't mad that is how the game is right now oh you got the [ __ ] you you got the [ __ ] over there with the looks his buddy got there went here he got bag put him in the pot up for you I had like I had like a oldale rain roll buty got a new bit truck baby go go with him I'm go go go with him go go [ __ ] I see you going I see you going I see you going and I ain't mad cuz I understand the game gu what I'mma have my turn and when I have my turn I don't want none of the old ho that already been [ __ ] up [ __ ] they gonna be all of them no but it's some new [ __ ] coming out the [ __ ] every day oh man it's some [ __ ] coming out the [ __ ] every day brand new don't even know what's out here yeah Michael cor Pur she Michel Michael cor Bel she cool I want to hold bottles I see they they uhuh they already know I already know they know what to buy yeah they know how person ah n i buy my cor coach i d by some Reb classes what you oh man Dam n that [ __ ] that [ __ ] real man sad reality it's Savage out here man like the wor listen man then the raapers don't [ __ ] [ __ ] man if you [ __ ] really bad man it's old we so it's really bad for real like really bad oh it's over with she might have some morals man n this [ __ ] like draing them and DM your girl just a space like put space in send it blank bubble you know what that mean this in the location [ __ ] man [ __ ] send your [ __ ] that big ass air Drake plane facts don't bring nothing they going to pick you up wherever you was standing there stand right there leave everything they going to pick you up to pick you up don't move they to pick you up in some [ __ ] take you to the helicopter helicopter to edate fly your ass to somewhere you never seen before bro you gone that would worth that whole relationship B care man this [ __ ] crazy bro was the [ __ ] true about how how the [ __ ] um how Drake had this sing out there with with her husband he sent the [ __ ] home man it was a story like it was a singer that he was like trying to I guess sign or some [ __ ] he flew her in her husband out and then like for a week or some [ __ ] and then like the last couple days sent the husband home man he [ __ ] cold I just when you about I just said my [ __ ] Joel Silver right shout out was movie producer Big Boy producer he told me a story one time I'm tell B [ __ ] it he said he said his wife when he first seen his wife she was married he told her I'mma marry you but him her and him her and her husband work for him he sent this [ __ ] on a movie for six months in a whole another state and kept the [ __ ] with him and bar I'm telling you bro well not the [ __ ] his wife but I'm just saying it's just like bro it's over with it's over with some [ __ ] what they want they can get if [ __ ] up to say that but did you see what I'm saying cuz [ __ ] put in the full work you better not be slipping a inch like a inch some you better have a slip of an inch and to see if he I'm telling you bro this [ __ ] [ __ ] up and women are cold some women I'm not I'm not um generalized I'm just saying some women are cold BR it'll be like they never knew you yeah for real [ __ ] act like she never even knew your name like you don't exist like how many times you see women do that like men can't really do that like [ __ ] with you I [ __ ] with you no matter what I'm always [ __ ] with this [ __ ] I [ __ ] with her how [ __ ] is [ __ ] be invested yeah [ __ ] be like I [ __ ] with women when they boy this [ __ ] I don't know him and be de serious like I don't know him they don't convince theirself that they don't know you oh man especially especially if it's a [ __ ] around that got some [ __ ] going on but them f w look your way boy but I feel like I feel like for a female to act like she doesn't know a [ __ ] that she wants loved it had to be something that happened but look listen I feel always going to be done happen [ __ ] going to be [ __ ] wom always got a chance to justify their action because something happened we in this [ __ ] or we in this [ __ ] but what's crazy no but what I'm saying is like Mo nine times out of 10 if if a [ __ ] is really in love with a [ __ ] like for real for real like they going to get into it they going to fall out she going to say [ __ ] him a million times but if she really loves this [ __ ] she's G to love this [ __ ] forever but if it's some [ __ ] that like some unfor a lot of women I've been hearing this [ __ ] lately a lot of women be kicking at I can learn the love a [ __ ] and they never be unlearned truly till you see some [ __ ] you really love you thought you was in love that's what most the [ __ ] most the women do they be delusional some some way like they like I heard three women say that like recently I thought I was going to learn to love him it's conveyance versus love too though I think some women men probably too whatever get convenience [ __ ] up with love yeah they they enter into the relationship with potential and they enter the relationship with uh what it could be not what it is like I can't deal with you if it ain't what it is right then like it have to be that I can't potentially feel like that and saying that I love you and knowing you trying to we trying to fall in love we trying to do hell no I can't potentially I can't fake that but if you but okay so let me ask you this then if you don't to some degree fall in love with potential then that's D how how does your how does your love get tested in order for you to be able to know whether or not you can grow with this person that's what I'm saying so it ain't it listen on one thing about it hold up scam one thing about it when a [ __ ] your person you know what it is cuzz you can't it's just something about you know when you love a person you know when you want to love a person you know when I like her a lot but you know if a [ __ ] jump out the bush with a stick you ain't F to try to tote this [ __ ] like I'mma tote my [ __ ] like man hey I'm jump in front you don't think that's that's that's the test would you die [ __ ] jump out shooter stick is you going is you going to try to c shei a [ __ ] around run but but this disconnect I had real [ __ ] though that the truth but this a disconnect though this disconnect because she's thinking like a woman that's how women like women date potential a [ __ ] going to like what he see instantly like if I like you I [ __ ] like you like if a [ __ ] say Hey you my girl we already the God damn but but if but if you like me just based off of what you see then no he saying not see you observing her not the look fact the outer when I see you I see you I don't see what you look like on the outside that's why I tell my wife hey don't ask me unbiased whatever you do going I'm going like it don't ask me if I like it don't ask me if nothing I like you so I don't give a [ __ ] what it is that [ __ ] look good you know what I'm saying so that's just what it is so I can't don't ask me on bias so we don't see potential and [ __ ] yeah we see you you yeah like if I like how you make me feel I feel that if a [ __ ] say if a [ __ ] commit like cuz I don't know like it's hard as [ __ ] for me to say I want to commit cuz if feels like I'm giving up some [ __ ] like so I feel like no no man truly wants to commit but if he find a woman that he feel like man shout shout it shout it worth of everything shout it it like then of course he's going to commit but it's not no easy [ __ ] that [ __ ] just want to do like [ __ ] Ain't just running out here to commit you see what I'm saying like [ __ ] don't want to commit H understand but a [ __ ] will if you find something that you feel like worth like I ain't going to find nothing else like sh like she one of a lifetime I ain't going to find nothing else like her so we ain't looking at her potential cuz sh you could have a a a [ __ ] pot piss in a want throw out of her [ __ ] going godamn hop down on a woman but a woman ain't just going to [ __ ] with no broke straight broke ass no car no house no n [ __ ] she's off the bat they ain't going to do that but gu what man that [ __ ] rare that [ __ ] better have a foot long a foot long goddamn she going to have something that she want he ain't going to just be it going to be something going to be something now that's what I'm saying because a lot of like well not a lot but some some some men are able to and I've seen this happen a million times before some men are able to hide or like finesse the fact that they lack some of the most essential things and then by the time by the time you understand that you've been been Boozled you know what I'm saying like it's too late you already got for you think that [ __ ] been spending the night that [ __ ] really be got there sleeping but see that but but listen one by one but see putting a pair of shoes every day but but this my thing right see women cuz people agree that like women are smarter than men right nah n I'm saying like book smart like right I'm just saying like educational wise I feel like women got more intuition than men I feel like women are more emotionally int I'mma tell you let me say this right quick before I say this I'mma tell you what men do bro and I'm go and give it up [ __ ] hate when they girl be right bro you that [ __ ] that's the only thing piss us off what pissed me off is a [ __ ] can make up something in their head and be right like how you guess that you gu right so wom got superp power now like that why I be trying to tell her like you right about a lot of that [ __ ] but some of that [ __ ] you making up so I ain't going to let you know when you're making it up I ain't going to let you know when you're right you know what I'm saying but you be right though this [ __ ] be like God but this my thing right women know what they be talking about but this my thing right what I'm saying if women are smarter than men so to speak and they believe this right you believe women smarter men I mean yeah okay so then how you get manipulated how you getting tricked then how you don't know a [ __ ] got two pair of jeans how you how you don't know yeah how you don't know that how you don't know a [ __ ] got two pair of jeans I feel like I feel like some women want to believe in the best of a [ __ ] that a [ __ ] might have another pair of jeans somewhere you know what I'm saying like but you only seeing two see I'm saying that what I'm saying like men are more L but but but the women the woman might think that the [ __ ] might not want to expose his hand right away so the two pair is what he's showing to test the water to see if it makes sense to expose the third pair see that's delusion cuz guess what you ain't never been around no rich [ __ ] that just wear two pair of jeans the [ __ ] that really got it they coming out with all this [ __ ] on especially if they like you and they trying to get you they ain't hiding nothing they putting everything on the table CU they trying to get you so a [ __ ] only let me test her with these two jeans come on you know this niggaer ain't got nothing you know it but in your mind you want to believe like I'm making get a good decision even though you know it's some [ __ ] like this [ __ ] ain't got nothing but in your mind you want to make yourself believe that he tricked me he got me he got over on me cuz you know women know man just like you said just like Bank said women got intuition you can't tell that this [ __ ] ain't got nothing yo you ain't know your baby daddy was broke before you had babies with him then you a had one with him you had another one with him yeah that [ __ ] be kind of hard like how can you say you got trick it's just hard to say you got yeah that [ __ ] when women turn into repeat offenders excuse that's excuse you know you know that's what you attract you know what I'm saying and and and and and and and no I just feel like women do make up a lot of [ __ ] in their head but how do you feel about when people say that you like what you like exactly so except that's what you like yeah and stop trying to change [ __ ] [ __ ] you don't like cuz listen bro I'm tell you bro I know like if I was to try to be anybody else but me I probably get a divorce like I'm me but I'm I mean I'm different but I'm me if that make sense what I'm saying like I'm totally different but I'm me like the mors and and [ __ ] that just boy don't do that don't say that and all that that's that's centic you get what I'm saying but I'm me so just imagine if I tried to be somebody else I don't think I would I don't think I don't think she'll go for it even though what me gets on [ __ ] nerd but I try to be something else it ain't going to work out how you a like that okay so let me ask y this then how do y'all feel about it when people say that let's just say say your significant person other person or whatever cheats on you and people say that it doesn't make sense to leave because all you g to do is hook up with another cheater because everybody I agree has their you know their I agree for women I don't know about yeah I agree for women though and I'm say I know that [ __ ] going to sound sexies or whatever they call it but I thought you about to say sexy yeah it ain't it ain't enough [ __ ] fact so you get your [ __ ] up to go find another [ __ ] who just got just got left by another female who he cheated on like it's just a Revol Circle it's just a rev it depend on what you want like cuz all men don't cheat the guys I'm just keeping it real but the guys that y'all yeah don't want be want y'all don't want them guys like I hear so many women be like he boring he didn't he didn't God sent this man fool yeah right but you looking at goddamn be over here wasting time with me you yeah you looking at scam them you know what saying who ain't boy a going ain't going ain't going a lot of [ __ ] ain't going they already know you all the man this this [ __ ] so [ __ ] up cuz most of Mo like most of the time the [ __ ] that's good good the dudes that's good dude women look at them as weird y cornball mhm so like so this nigga's a real man gentle he's a man he's a man you w look God bwood breath B you smokeing bwood cut out you want to hear you hear girl how you don't want to hear that that sound cuz cuz you addicted to the [ __ ] yeah for real and that you ain't never seen that you know your mama going to be like what she doing like y y y y your people goingon to disapprove of that that [ __ ] [ __ ] up bro where you get him from yeah H Square boy H Square Bo sh but lame here but he the one for you and and you right BR be some good ass men and it's funny cuz a lot of folk think and I I had to explain that to cuz you know whenever I do what's name podcast them folk think that [ __ ] real so it be like I be getting hate mail and I just be like damn like this sh a joke yeah you be doing like the yeah that [ __ ] hard though finess finess yeah so it be a joke but I be saying some real [ __ ] so it catch like and that's all this [ __ ] really is just getting emotional response from people you see what I'm saying and boy them folk be going crazy on this [ __ ] like and I'm just saying like man for the most part it's a lot of good [ __ ] out there it just they don't want them [ __ ] they don't like and crazy because they don't even see them [ __ ] like if you if you try to explain like a good [ __ ] they don't even them [ __ ] invisible they only talk about the [ __ ] that they like which is a small percent you see what I'm saying like every [ __ ] ain't like that but the [ __ ] that you probably going to want he like that you see what I'm saying okay I say this right I say this right a woman want a [ __ ] well not all women women want to pull up with a [ __ ] that other [ __ ] respect and and all the [ __ ] that's what it is bro and all the [ __ ] want yeah that's what I'm saying they want to pull yeah pull up with a niggga that ever that the [ __ ] respect and the [ __ ] want that's other than that man not a [ __ ] that's like okay that that that want them [ __ ] who the [ __ ] who like cuz she want to feel a slight sense of of that yeah yeah that you might can yeah like cuz if I feel like I'm the only one want you then no no thrill this ain't man no thrill I feel like they want a [ __ ] they want a niggga to get all the hoes but then they want to get the [ __ ] and make the niggaer not get no more ho damn like I want you to be able to get all the hoes but I don't want I be able to stop you from getting all the hoes to say that I was the one yeah when have you seen that done before that why I keep trying to add the the lates like you seen you you seen your whoever your cousin get cheated on your sister everybody in the circle every no not get cheated on your brother is a cheater your uncle your daddy your cousin your nephew you done help him he ain't here girl he was here all night you done help people cheat what makes you think you f to get the [ __ ] that don't if he D type of [ __ ] I'm not saying all men cheat I'm saying like certain type of [ __ ] is just outside and them [ __ ] it too many I ain't going lie bro I say I think all men do cheat I think you only as faithful as your options I feel like nigg if a [ __ ] ain't capable of cheat then he ain't and most [ __ ] is broke and working for that 30 hours of God damn 24 hours a day they can't cheat [ __ ] depend what your focus is man I'm like I know [ __ ] is [ __ ] in the factory that what I'm saying work them nigg who got there got time to to talk talk they work B out that [ __ ] the [ __ ] nigg super cheating them R [ __ ] they s right there on the they they did a study and show like the the Lesser [ __ ] make the more likely he is to be faithful versus the more money a [ __ ] make the more he you know that though come on but that's what I'm saying so I'm saying like any like what I say to women is like what [ __ ] don't want to be a king like if if if you walk up to a man on the street like but some that [ __ ] don't make some [ __ ] King though other [ __ ] make some I know but I'm just saying like I the reason why I use the term King is because like okay [ __ ] what king had one Queen and no conine just for real like what king just had one wife one and he just was n that [ __ ] [ __ ] everything boy it was a [ __ ] in China boy this [ __ ] if you want to work next to the emperor you had to chop your dick off cuz he had so many hoes you had to chop your dick off to work in the castle in the padet cuz he ain't want you to godamn cuz you know she I know you ain't [ __ ] exactly but he a [ __ ] na here he going to [ __ ] nothing in here cuz guess why [ __ ] I cuz my my my son going to be a Heir so you can't like it ain't no practic test and all DNA test and [ __ ] so you leave your dick at the door come work in the [ __ ] so just think like all I'm saying is like you walk up to any average man and be like hey you you want to be king king of Atlanta for the day what [ __ ] going be like nah like hell yeah I want to cuz Men We value that [ __ ] we value power and Prestige and status and [ __ ] like that ambition you see I'm saying so you saying you saying basically like Ain a [ __ ] if a [ __ ] in a [ __ ] in the right situation to go yeah yeah give a [ __ ] 100 Mil boy what that [ __ ] dick GNA fall off F 100 million and everybody know it everybody know you got 100 milon women know you got 100 million my debate my only debate you got it might and it might be a lot more rare that just mean don't no loyalty exists nowhere for nobody but that philosophy I'm just saying with that philosophy then n but but but but but I got I got I gotta disagree on that because loyalty ain't to me loyalty ain't defined by sex yeah what you talking about to say I'm say he said he just saying get some [ __ ] I ain't saying like leave my wife [ __ ] oh you saying like that I'm saying you some [ __ ] I'm going to play I'm to I'm not I'm not no advocate for Cheetos or none of that but I'm saying is I get what he's saying yeah for real am I Tripp it what I'm saying he's saying like you never know what position you get in and where you start to see yourself at when you start when other people start to see you different but I can't I get what you saying no I I hear what he saying I'm just saying that you that's really it for real so okay so let me let me rephrase then so money will change you but do y'all think loyalty do you think a person if a person cheat on you they're disloyal to you if if y'all if y ain't got the agreement don't cheat H if the agreement if if if if if if if if you cheated on your dude right do you feel like you disloyal to him keep it real yeah I do it depends on how you unless unless unless unless she has an understanding with him that you can cheat n it ain't no understanding with that type of [ __ ] like if I'm with you no it's an understand some people have open relationship with you or whatever then like I'm with you if we've agreed to be together or if we've agreed to do this [ __ ] or however the [ __ ] whatever like say for instance um what if you done did everything else to do everything you took care you got them you there for them they sick they locked up anything you there right but you [ __ ] are you disloyal or unfaith both both unless some some one says you I I know that you're cheating and I don't give look the word see I look that up that's a good I'm telling you look up the word loyalty Loy look at the word loyalty and look up unfaith I think we did this one time on on another podcast on on big facts but are you disloyal or Unfaithful both Unfaithful both that's cold right now right Elite cuz a [ __ ] can do some disloyal [ __ ] to you and be faithful to you disloyal means failing to be loyal to a person or body to which one has obligations but loyalty Unfaithful but loyalty the word faithfulness is in loyalty what's what's lloy faithfulness in a steadfast face of Temptation renounced desert or betray see I'm getting a whole different what's name I don't know strong feeling of support or Alliance thank you that's what that that's Unfaithful is which one you looked up I think this sh Oxford yeah this Oxford I'm saying what's the name loyer you look up loyalty all right loyalty is what a strong feeling of support or Alliance so if you ain't broke the support of Alli or Alliance the alliance could be no the alliance could it's black the alliance the alliance could be that we ain't going to cheat I'm saying we go down that rabbit hole huh we can go down that rabbit holead but if someone does something the respect to make you feel betrayed then it violates loyalty and faithfulness what okay Faith that's all I'm saying of being fa yeah that's like say that's like saying just on some homeboy [ __ ] all right this homeboy always did everything right but then snitch who he told him you see what I'm saying though but but see it's different because like faithfulness is almost like crazy you know that way that's that's the new [ __ ] out here now like [ __ ] ain't told on me who he told on [ __ ] like that's the new [ __ ] that [ __ ] crazy and what's [ __ ] is disgusting I'm so glad I'm so glad I'm a comedian y boy I ain't even got to worry about this [ __ ] I don't even give a [ __ ] about this [ __ ] like boy I'm so glad I ain't even like even cuz it's like man this [ __ ] different bro like I this [ __ ] just way different I never thought that I see today that this [ __ ] would be like you know what I mean [ __ ] R and just keep rapping and keep you know what I mean this [ __ ] crazy for real 2024 so that's why I'm so we I listen man and I always take the [ __ ] to weird space because my mind just be weird sometimes y'all my mind be weird sometime but you see how we create AI right it's Dam nck can can grow to be a life for because AI going to be AI like robots going to be able to make other robots right M it's like a birth go hold up hold up being H me out all right so that's that's basically not humans I guess we're humans not that's basically another form of humanity right if they if they just go to building [ __ ] they we got our own fact we building [ __ ] and they multiply multiply multiply right who's to say that another planet didn't make us and the same [ __ ] hold on hold on hold on let me let me get this off the same little little plug ups and [ __ ] we putting in them they just electric they could have found some [ __ ] like brains organs and all that it's the same [ __ ] cuz it's from a different planet right it's still got damn [ __ ] this uh this at the top [ __ ] this the hard drive no real [ __ ] though am I tripping we got a hard drive computer we got we got a whole our bodies are basically computers right yeah they work like them similar cars if you think about a car car got engine who [ __ ] huh who controls all that what you mean who controls it we probably ran nor Atlanta philosophy that [ __ ] making s though J yeah it ain't but it listen bro we so if AI run off right now who's to say Humanity didn't run off so how they ain't find us if they was in control of us I'm saying we we can we can find a them [ __ ] bucking with sticks and [ __ ] they they them folk gret them folk they [ __ ] they they what they is now I ever heard little Fishbowl Theory what's that basically like the aliens tray the humanity and they just watch us I believe need that bro fish bowl the like like like you know how you just go and look at the fish tank the fish don't know you outside that [ __ ] they don't know what's going on outside the [ __ ] so it's a theory where they say like aliens created us and they just monitor us they just watch yeah I believe they just be watching us and [ __ ] I feel like it's too many of us for that [ __ ] to be going on what bro listen but but but how many shit's on the game you play the game right now you play a whole universe a whole world this [ __ ] is a real world in the yeah that a making [ __ ] you put [ __ ] on your you D near in that [ __ ] I just did a virtual reality [ __ ] over by um by um how me and Shante and dating went that [ __ ] that [ __ ] is real when you put them [ __ ] on your body you DN there you in there yeah the metaverse all that [ __ ] I don't know I think I think is we even woke now go rabbit B even W like [ __ ] you dreams and [ __ ] feel so real now come back so many times for me every day like I think I'm glitched up but you right but listen I had a dream and woke up and had to realize I had kids and [ __ ] I had a dream that I felt like [ __ ] I had a dream that I felt like I was there for like three months like I was living a whole life and all kind of [ __ ] Apartments trapping and all kind of [ __ ] and I woke up [ __ ] I had to be like where the [ __ ] I'm at I thought this [ __ ] was fake I thought what I was at was fake and the dream was real not real [ __ ] yeah that when they say you tapping in you can't determine well you know black folk about to get piles and [ __ ] super piles and [ __ ] huh Black Folk about to get super piles and [ __ ] y'all a see that what's yeah boy they saying Black Folk DNA DNA about to unlock and all kind of [ __ ] about to happen boy I just want to be a to fly and [ __ ] super speed I do think the Matrix I do think the Matrix [ __ ] was real though I do think we plug in and plug out when we go to sleep and wake up can't tell me bro I know I know I be glitching bro I ain't the only [ __ ] glitching y'all [ __ ] just don't be keeping it real [ __ ] just be trying to act like it don't exist I see everything you know what I'm saying you cuz with that fish sandwich yeah man what we doing scream about right it's all good man we appreciate you pulling up the big facts you know what I'm saying let everybody know where they can tap in with you and what you got coming up man look man y'all can tap in with me on YouTube Facebook Instagram Tik Tok everything all the same JQ health is cerski GQ Health J us s t q e H3 FF man the kid that did man you know what I mean if you think only those who think like that think like that man so yeah there it is check us out. bfa.com subscribe like comment share all that on the bigf network salute salute	on the bed I'm like I'm going to die I just Clos my eyes I'm in the universe I'm just in the universe like but I can see my body on the bed with my ey closed I owe my eyes I'm back in the room close my eyes I'm in the universe so I start seeing myself on stage with a microphone like that was astro Projection what when you had that where you supposed to be at though that's what I was saying like but I think what it is though I think it's it's like a unified Feld and you see all the possibilities that you can be right so that was me in the future looking back at me like see what I'm saying even with Dreams yeah exactly like [ __ ] was telling me come on like do what we on so I'm like man I'm going to do this [ __ ] then I got back to Atlanta boy my cousin was standing with him but [ __ ] tow tow a hole in my head thing gone you yeah why part me empty [ __ ] gone all [ __ ] gone you know I mean see make sense yeah I see see yeah we CH we chopped up and [ __ ] y chopped it up yeah I mean you was just like no regular chop up like you know I mean but you know I mean like like what what	5	8	3	on the bed I'm like I'm going to die I just Clos my eyes I'm in the universe I'm just in the universe like but I can see my body on the bed with my ey closed I owe my eyes I'm back in the room close my eyes I'm in the universe so I start seeing myself on stage with a microphone like that was astro Projection what when you had that where you supposed to be at though that's what I was saying like but I think what it is though I think it's it's like a unified Feld and you see all the possibilities that you can be right so that was me in the future looking back at me like see what I'm saying even with Dreams yeah exactly like	come on like do what we on	4,6,3	2,5,6	4	6	3	2	5	6
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-Xsjx4VTfU	4,038	q-Xsjx4VTfU	2024-06-27 00:00:00	[Music] this is big fact Network [Music] exclusive live from the culture lab it's time for big facts big bank is here baby Jade is here DJ Scream is here we're welcoming today a comedian that's very funny you see him online give it up for scam lightly on big facts what's up what's up what's up bro you good man yeah man I have made it man so what you say you scam your way on the big F tell tell us how you got on big F I want to hear the whole story yeah so look man I got damn I had hit bank account but goddamn Bank was so cool about we worked some [ __ ] out and then goam you know I mean I owe them so so this a transaction yeah this transaction I just [ __ ] with you no man for real like shout out my manager uh y sh man brother and you know I mean we been had linked up like I came and did skit on y'all um on the podcast what that was like about a year ago yeah so U man just kept working kept grinding and boom back here so is your Origins comedy or what was you doing before that no I was in some whole other [ __ ] some whole other [ __ ] you can talk about or you can't talk about I can't allegedly I say allegedly but now for real I was like uh I was um in the streets just like I ain't G to say everybody else but pretty much you know I demographic I came from the same [ __ ] PIV it and I was always doing I was always like stupid my whole life I can say that I was slow I was slow so I been I've been should have step in comedy but I kind of running from it you know what I mean cuz I Ain I ain't I was I wasn't in no position to be laughed at at the time so when I finally took it serious sat down two months that [ __ ] was out of here at what point did you know you was funny man since I was little I ain't gonna lie like I said I always been a CL clown I always been a [ __ ] roast and always I I I had to fight [ __ ] I roast so good you know what I mean so I always had that aspect to me so I just when I really took it serious like man I'm going to do this comedy [ __ ] like full-fledged nothing else I'm sit down and do it like I said that sh was out of here but I I will say like I I do feel like it chose me instead of me choosing it you know I mean do you think it's important to be able to do like other other types of comedies like AC in the movie Stand Up and all that type of stuff too or or or or is it if you're a one lane type of comedian is that cool in your opinion I I mean I feel like whatever you comfortable with see what I'm saying because a lot of people ain't comfortable with that stage you know I mean I didn't did all of it so like I don't know like for me I didn't get all of it you know I mean but for everybody I like stand up ain't for everybody you know I mean that [ __ ] a whole different monster you know I me why you say that because it's like like it's [ __ ] that you got to know like you got to know time you know I mean you got to know punch lines you got to know how to build a joke up you know you got to sit traps type [ __ ] I mean so it's like an art front for like it's actually some people that probably ain't even funny in real life but they comedians you see what I'm saying cuz they just know the art of telling jokes ver being just naturally funny like you might be naturally funny and get on stage and can't you that's true just how some of these rap [ __ ] be lying boom same way but they sound good exactly that [ __ ] sound good [ __ ] make [ __ ] sound good you go get some money yeah how it go what's the inspiration for your skits uh cuz a lot of it seem like day-to-day just man really just like life and um me like because and I say that because [ __ ] I'm damn near like a psych patient like you know I mean my mama was a paranoid schizophrenic so I come from like my mind be racing so this [ __ ] like therapy for me I just get to get out [ __ ] that's just in my mind all day which is some stupid [ __ ] that I just be thinking about so now I get to relay that on on on camera so let me answer this so just going back to what you said about your mom how was it growing up in a household with somebody that was battling mental illness like that uh definitely a struggle definitely definitely a struggle like uh I want to say my mom probably was your dad there yeah yeah actually my dad raised me like um okay RP my dad um he actually like like when they split my dad took me so I ra with my dad you know what I mean like okay and and he was a old man like my dad was born 1929 he was in World War II real [ __ ] on God everything my dad born in 1929 [ __ ] in World War II so I so so I be having more on God how how old was your daddy when he had you he had me he was like 50 something okay that that add up yeah yeah yeah okay yeah I'm talking about dead that [ __ ] was in World War II so so he put certain mors and [ __ ] in a [ __ ] that I know people ain't even got no more you know what I mean so that's why people be thinking I sound how I do because you know what I mean like I was raised with a Elder you know I mean that [ __ ] was a real Elder you see what I'm saying so with him he was like the um coherent parent of the group you see what I'm saying my mama was wild Young illness type [ __ ] so my daddy was like the one that took us and raised us you see what I'm saying but growing up in the house with that [ __ ] yeah that [ __ ] was a struggle I think that's why I get my comedic comedic side front cuz my mama she Ain have no fut she'll say anything to anybody at any time and like people didn't know she was you know I mean she was like she had the illness or whatever and they thought that she was trying to be funny or like but it was funny though it was funny though I can't C like my MMA was funny as hell though like rip she was funny as hell she Ain what she'll say anything out M like a like a child worse like a adult that know better but still say some [ __ ] like like for real like your homeboy might come over there she might just look at your homeboy and say some [ __ ] like I bet your dick little out of nowhere real [ __ ] where you from originally originally I was born in tusi Alabama I was born in my grandma house 46 yeah I went to school down there oh you did yeah they told you with the locals oh I'm cool with a couple of them shouts the street of Frank Walkin some of them so was your daddy a part of the experiment that they did down there no uh no my dad U he was from Chicago so he had came later but yeah Tusk experiments like a lot of my family members and [ __ ] was affected by that like d yeah did they ever give them reparations for that I think they just now I think they just yeah yeah they did yeah they did yeah they they got reparation for it but it was only like a small group of them left by time they did get to him what you think about this [ __ ] cat you watch that cat we [ __ ] yeah hell what you think about that I think it's a lot of truth to it like I don't know I don't know them folk person I don't want to say too much cuz godamn I ain't trying to get black ball before I get I just talking [ __ ] but now I I I definitely I see that [ __ ] here like you know I mean it's like a you know kind of like a little pecking order gatekeeping type [ __ ] like people gatekeep in all rounds no matter how big small so I think every city got that [ __ ] and then you get to the industry they got their own Gatekeepers so or you feel like they be trying to hold [ __ ] out you think you think that's possible yeah well I ain't going to say it I I think if you weak if you weak it'll stop you like [ __ ] like you know what I mean if you don't say [ __ ] I'm make it anyway know I mean it can scare you off and you just like I seen some with um the Wayne brother he was like somebody said something to him and he start doing stand up for like 10 years so that [ __ ] can really you know what I mean shake you in the wrong way you the whole body if you let it you know I mean but I feel like if you're a [ __ ] that come from nothing I truly feel like what's for you is for you though that's true I don't know it might be harder for you I don't feel like no n can keep you out yeah it might keep you out of they Circle yeah that's what said they situation yeah but this [ __ ] too big man you can make a way man I be [ __ ] excuses I feel but I I I feel the way you feel but I also feel like if the right [ __ ] sprays your name then it's going to be I don't want to say next to Impossible but it can be super [ __ ] overly extremely difficult in mostu but it's it's it still B down to B down to how hard you go look at the [ __ ] that they do spray the [ __ ] going hard about this [ __ ] man yeah but [ __ ] look how I look that's true look look at the [ __ ] who it's a it's a it's a lot of casual to that [ __ ] what I'm saying it's a lot of casualty to that [ __ ] because I feel like you laid down at the end of the day that's true that what I said what I said like if you weak you going to fold you going to fold in on yourself that [ __ ] really be mental like if somebody get in your head and you don't get that [ __ ] out Bo like [ __ ] what's the [ __ ] name B Simon that [ __ ] went what number one FK got in that [ __ ] head he Ain like performing to his best n they ain't getting they ain't getting his head he want it he W it he W it yeah sometimes CU I I don't really know a lot about that [ __ ] I just know R talked about him in the song he said like Ben Timmons I ain't going nowhere or something yeah he had a hell of a agent he had a hell of a agent they giving him money based on what they thought he might be able to do what I'm saying he ain't never do it though but the [ __ ] it paid him based off of his potential exactly but he got man he got gunshot BR the man wouldn't even shoot the basketball man that's in your head he wouldn't even take a shot n he ain't shoo bro cuz he wasn't going to make it man he didn't shoot it he could he could he didn't even drive I'm just saying if okay let's take Ben Simmons maybe I'm being in a homer and let's take Ant-Man all right Antman shoot that's what I was saying last night what I said what I said if you weak I'm saying like he mentally KN up it's you right I see what you say you say take the shot forget that like an is from the west side that dog I know to do matter [ __ ] lay down everywhere it's a [ __ ] laying down on every side of town same how you name one [ __ ] that stood up I bet we can a fire [ __ ] that done laid down laid down [ __ ] [ __ ] up Z they ain't do nothing to Zion he did it to himself I mean who Z the big dude who be smashing the porn or whatever Zion Williamson the boy can jump though like boy can jump yeah you getting paid to jump jumping don't win championships and games but it's early too though early super early he got he got a minute man he still got he got time to like when did he get signed once you he been in the league six years that ain't ear I been in about six years yeah I'm thinking like three n he been playing hurt two of them oh yeah that's what it is that's that's what it is that's is my opinion when when it comes to like the athlete [ __ ] some people just ain't got it but that's what I'm saying like people I think a lot of people put emphasis on it like that [ __ ] just everywhere that [ __ ] ain't that [ __ ] real rare but if but if you're not it and then on top of that you don't have self-esteem then like you're going you're going to flop every time you going to f in on yourself like you going to be your worst enemy you going to godamn you're going to implode facts hey what what a character scam come from man this [ __ ] so crazy so the the interview that future did with Kevin Sam I watched that interview I like well that [ __ ] don't give a [ __ ] about [ __ ] just just his demeanor how he was just like yeah I me a [ __ ] by like I like but this [ __ ] just so nonchalant so I was like damn what if the scammer was like that like [ __ ] just pull all kind of moves don't give a [ __ ] about the consequences so and it's crazy I watched I I the interview was on TV and I just like hey I want to shoot a skit by the Atlanta scammer and then in like 10 minutes I just he like he need a name I was like [ __ ] scam like Le oh like scam likely I'm like no not likely but like Le like l e e so I just ran with that [ __ ] and that [ __ ] just stuck so hard that people like people don't even call me by my name they just call me scam introdu you fact so I like [ __ ] scam so I just ran with it man and that [ __ ] just naturally like took off because I feel like you know that's what we living in anyway what you think about SC game I mean [ __ ] is though you go with your move like you had if it made sense yeah yeah [ __ ] me too if it made sense like I feel like I did everything it is to do in the streets like everything like a [ __ ] that played all positions in that [ __ ] I had been a fake ass little pimp before godamn s everything it is I did everything so [ __ ] why not riding around that man we was making no money man but that [ __ ] him [ __ ] the hard [ __ ] listen [ __ ] listen sh but then the crazy thing is just talking to them folk like when you talk like real PE and [ __ ] they be like you got to coach the [ __ ] talk I ain't got the patience to keep talking to no [ __ ] about some [ __ ] just keep on telling you some [ __ ] that you should know [ __ ] that I go get me some drugs or something baby this [ __ ] slow oh when with that turning point though huh like the Turn Point like man I'm just feel cuz you always legit now right yo for sure why he looking around I won't be on big face for real no I am though we in the turtle what it was though like you know [ __ ] I ain't going to lie but you know the pandemic had [ __ ] boom [ __ ] was eating good like you know I mean so I had enough money to where I was like damn I can kind of ease up off this you know I mean this [ __ ] cuz at first like I said I I never wanted to do comedy because of that like I mean I was dealing with [ __ ] in the street I ain't really want no [ __ ] to feel like I was no funny [ __ ] you know what I mean when you dealing with certain amount of money so once I once I felt like I made enough money then I was like [ __ ] I can kind of start doing comedy like you know doing my skits and [ __ ] so like I said I had sat down like um my turning my main turning point though was and this is trueu I had went to Miami for new years and [ __ ] so I had on took a I thought was edible so I ate a edible but I don't know what for issue was like it it had to be like strs or something yeah cuz boy I had the worst trip of my life [ __ ] like I'm I'm I'm zooed you know you you know when you get too high you think you about to die and [ __ ] that's what I was on I'm like well I'm I'm G I'm out of here so so I walk to the gas station to get some milk drunk drunk drunk a gallon of milk that man that [ __ ] only wors when you swallow dope no no that milk workk any natural high and that milk work that sh why the [ __ ] y'all ain't G me milk that day I was TR to die want to see it you milk what you talking about let no El kill you bro you just tripping but that how that [ __ ] had me that [ __ ] do that [ __ ] take you to a psychedelic listen boy that [ __ ] had listen I swear to God on everything I got back to the room after drinking the milk [ __ ] I lay on the bed I'm like I'm going to die I just Clos my eyes I'm in the universe I'm just in the universe like but I can see my body on the bed with my ey closed I owe my eyes I'm back in the room close my eyes I'm in the universe so I start seeing myself on stage with a microphone like that was astro Projection what when you had that where you supposed to be at though that's what I was saying like but I think what it is though I think it's it's like a unified Feld and you see all the possibilities that you can be right so that was me in the future looking back at me like see what I'm saying even with Dreams yeah exactly like [ __ ] was telling me come on like do what we on so I'm like man I'm going to do this [ __ ] then I got back to Atlanta boy my cousin was standing with him but [ __ ] tow tow a hole in my head thing gone you yeah why part me empty [ __ ] gone all [ __ ] gone you know I mean see make sense yeah I see see yeah we CH we chopped up and [ __ ] y chopped it up yeah I mean you was just like no regular chop up like you know I mean but you know I mean like like what what the excuse was why he broke in your [ __ ] no I say he was standing [ __ ] that [ __ ] a break in that [ __ ] lit there I'm saying where the excuse was taking out with the [ __ ] uh I don't even remember so about like he probably felt like I owed him or some [ __ ] yeah but it probably wasn't that you know what I mean but like he was staying with you and you owed him it be like that sometime the [ __ ] kind of [ __ ] but but you just know like you know I mean like [ __ ] was just getting out the fed you know [ __ ] PTSD like you know what I mean home to steep so you know what I mean home you doing stand up yeah yeah I didn't I didn't did stand up I did step away from it though cuz like I said it's it's so much politics and that [ __ ] and that [ __ ] ain't paying nothing they think it ain't paying nothing I got a little something for you want do [ __ ] show yeah we September I when is it April May damn that's May May 4th Saturday May 4 okay you know I got I gota get back on stage that [ __ ] A that [ __ ] ain't just like no just you know I mean that [ __ ] real real you got to get back up St you just got to get in your bag right yeah yeah but but it's like like I said like it's about time so like that's why you do it every night so you can got damn sharpen your your skills no we had um we had my man on here man don't you you got to get you gotta got damn we just had Henry up here right oh yeah yeah Henry my boy yeah Henry said the same [ __ ] like you got to exercise [ __ ] going and 100 50 people rooms 25 people in the room you still gota go work your material even if you comeing in [ __ ] working on us yeah for real people you got to work that material bro if a n GNA do this [ __ ] n gota do it all the way no but see that's what I was saying like so I noticed like if you try to do that and the content one of them going to suffer see what I'm saying so why you say that because like the amount of time that you got to take like like [ __ ] what's her name did it country Wayne did it but he he I'm saying like them [ __ ] beat but but what I'm saying like once they did one of them surer I ain't going to say like the quality of the content serer but the amount that you putting out going to go down you got to balance it at that point you got to balance it yeah I know it but I'm saying like far as like especially like now because [ __ ] gate you see what I'm saying so it's still like I ain't like [ __ ] don't like internet comedians for real that I to say really respect yeah exactly like you get chance pause edit you get a chance do all that [ __ ] want that [ __ ] on the spot but but it's the thing though it's like she like they it's kind of like the old mindset like how [ __ ] was Pass Out CD ain't no more CD so [ __ ] don't know how to transition you see what I'm saying so it's kind of like that like they be want you to just only do stand up rooms and [ __ ] but it's like I got the internet why would I go touch a whole another see what I'm saying like you can reach way more still though them [ __ ] but [ __ ] Ain't Going [ __ ] [ __ ] don't really internet comedian oh but iig who like being the trench you know what I'm saying the people do like I love it yeah but I'm saying like comedians who gotdamn know where they got it from gotam getting them $20 nights godamn [ __ ] [ __ ] that got a drink you know saying [ __ ] get a [ __ ] [ __ ] like them nigg feel like they got it out the mud but that's still like a yeah [ __ ] up um perspective but I get it you know what I'm saying for what they feel like what they put in every comedian should put in but [ __ ] something it's the luck of the [ __ ] gu what I got this [ __ ] out the mud too I got this [ __ ] with a phone and a goddamn ring light a cheat one at that godamn exactly you know I mean cord breaking off that [ __ ] I had to wire that b back together put some tape around it so it's the same [ __ ] it's just like I said it's people perspective like you know what I mean and me honestly I ain't going to give a [ __ ] what another [ __ ] think about me like [ __ ] I ain't in it to be you know I mean I mean do you feel do you feel sometime like man yeah I need I need to goam go and get in that I need to go on and Mer that part so then let them know I can do it do you ever ever get but I did I ain't going to lie I did you see what I'm saying like I performed at a you know what I mean like a at a high stage what you know I mean [ __ ] some big dogs from the city like boy you got it know I mean it just like I said that [ __ ] wasn't making no sense for me and it's taking away from some [ __ ] that do make money so what I'm saying like I'm making money on Instagram and Facebook and [ __ ] like that so I'm making way more money than I would be trying to do taking a risk anything $200 [ __ ] you got to get into it with anything n that [ __ ] your security none of that [ __ ] yeah that [ __ ] A you been spank the [ __ ] on camera for what hell cuz the nigg [ __ ] G they move yeah cuz I ain't going to think I'm black out a whole another side be like oh n that [ __ ] don't even want that turn the big to workout what it name big Q got turn the big Q onig ass yeah I don't even want to play n but you get what I'm saying though yeah that [ __ ] that that don't make sense to be cuz I went gotam I would just say if I I want to be a rapper right there I would do my [ __ ] online I wouldn't be at no open mics that [ __ ] dangerous yeah what I'm saying like [ __ ] like like you not going to gain no fans from that [ __ ] like I had a homeboy yes you are no you yes you are fans from what okay from from like open m stand up talk open mik rapping or you talking about stand up comedian stand up comedian I'm saying you make no money off no you might not make no money off of it but you like people will put your name with your face and it'll like help increase your family I agree that but well you got to get on the internet the internet no the internet is definitely over it but I'm saying touching the people is is going to make a difference also but most of the people outside [ __ ] but then what I say though like other crew y'all rapping my bad J y'all rapping other crew other open mic and you f then we got to get into it cuz you f yeah how this [ __ ] go comedian comedian okay we on the same show together [ __ ] mad at me cuz I just was funny as hell y that'll get you [ __ ] up real talk like cuz then they ain't going to want to put you on their show you see what I'm saying because every like I feel like most comedians everybody want to feel like the funnyest [ __ ] in the room just like okay a artist right let's say if two artists in the room and one get to playing his music the other [ __ ] going to get be ready for him to cut him music off so he can play his [ __ ] like come on man r that [ __ ] up so I can play my [ __ ] my [ __ ] F like your [ __ ] cool but my [ __ ] so it's the same thing you know mean it's the same [ __ ] and doing open mics [ __ ] steal your jokes I had a [ __ ] steal my whole [ __ ] and do the [ __ ] the next day because I was like I ain't know you see what I'm saying so they we was talking about that yeah so they'll tell you like don't do open mics and comedy cuz writers and [ __ ] be in the crowd to Ste [ __ ] jokes remix so it's a conspiracy yeah GNA remix your [ __ ] yeah like he ain't going nowh with that he funny I see what he Tred to do I'm show how to do it like your delivery or something might be off what I'm saying you how to do you a real funny ass [ __ ] get your [ __ ] too fast I know how to do it I know how to perform the joke better than and then boom got some of they [ __ ] with your [ __ ] that [ __ ] is that [ __ ] out of here TV so it just this [ __ ] just like I said sh just like a rap game you had to skit one time about like dating in Atlanta and [ __ ] what's your like what's your take on dating in Atlanta man have fun God damn don't take nothing serious like this [ __ ] ain't serious out here for real what you mean I feel like this [ __ ] a big ass high school for real I mean like Atlanta man I I would me personally I wouldn't like for love and no [ __ ] out here like for real like I feel like if you ain't already got it like new generation New Age day this [ __ ] over with like if you ain't already got love and marriage and wife and all that [ __ ] over with in Atlanta as of today it's a rap what you saying in a certain age group or just period or just period because everybody mind mind frames have change you see what I'm saying everybody mind is right now she it's okay to hurt whoever is long as is you happy like everybody feel like everything Justified as long as I'm looking out for me and I'm happy then she it's whatever it's cold real you saying no no consideration for nobody nobody if you look at everything everybody talking about online and all the toxicity [ __ ] everybody really just out for self and it's okay like like everybody promoe it's okay to be for yourself like no team ball no nothing I ain't going to lie I I help a lot of people though but I I I I've been on that lately like [ __ ] that I got to figure me out cuz that's the way the world live bro yeah but that's what I'm saying saying that the way the world live like whoever with me like this [ __ ] we doing yeah yeah this me figuring me out I can't worry about goddamn going play goddamn tennis yeah you know what I'm saying cuz my my buddy want to play tennis all day ain't no money in tennis bro for me I need to be right here doing this [ __ ] so I got to do what serve me I don't I don't knock that so that's why that's why I'm saying like the D SC sh like that like [ __ ] ain't nobody really going to stick it out with no [ __ ] till it's too late you see what I'm saying like that's how I feel anyway from my experience and your ass ain't lit ain't got nothing for you so you saying like the ho going anyway going gone they gone get the elevator with that SM that B that b he don't know what you say oh yeah really that that Clyde Christian but you know what I mean CDE be G out of here what's that come on what floor you stay on oh seven whole time [ __ ] paying for the [ __ ] all kind of [ __ ] tricky you don't think it's a circle though I think you don't think it's the circle like it's like that circle of people he right see see see you you speaking from where you at he's saying like outside the circle is different though but I but but this the thing I say with men it might be you see what I'm saying like for the for the men that's outside that Circle they don't know what we talking about see what I'm saying they don't but all the women know because they all going to get brought into that Circle see what I'm saying all women been out somewhere and a [ __ ] didn't caught they ey [ __ ] with some money and they gone they gone cuz Atlanta like Atlanta like people it's a wom that it's a wom that be it's a women that be up in Chastain Park at some [ __ ] Neil Soul jazz [ __ ] that be out the way yeah you talking about a different Circle CC you talking about the hook you talking about the Hooka Circle no uh I'm talking about all walk the [ __ ] is the hookah Circle CC the hookah lounges and [ __ ] n I'm talking about all no but I mean it's it's people like it's people that go to the hookah lounges the hookah Circle or whatever they got their own money that's not giv a Fu about what another [ __ ] got but it's not that it's not also just about money see that's what like I ain't saying like what it is SC it's just that stuff on like it's just that stuff like you know certain people got that stuff right so what I'm saying is like and the reason why I say that the reason why I say that because I I watched like when I was a young [ __ ] my partner this [ __ ] had everything this [ __ ] uh drop head godamn benty truck all this [ __ ] I done watch every type of woman from every type of Walk of Life come in the [ __ ] spot and he tell them folks straight up the [ __ ] make Ann hey look you ain't going to suck like at the end of night you can get up and get the [ __ ] out and I Ain never see not one woman get up and leave like got me [ __ ] up and I seen the [ __ ] with doctors lawyers them them so-called Neo Soul [ __ ] I ain't never seen not one of them get up and say no [ __ ] up never by them folks oh now you put yourself in that position now what he saying is listen it's hoes everywhere yeah I'm talk about scientist nurse doctor D judges whatever hoes women going to be women some of them but what he's saying is he's saying the on they don't even allow theyel to pull up on bro that's what I'm saying cuz we talk it don't matter what walk a life it's still a select few women she can be outside and still won't pull up on you I know some [ __ ] who ain't going I know a lot of them going but some of them ain't going but see that's a lot of them that ain't going some of them ain't going I'mma keep it 100 he take that right [ __ ] but some of still but okay what what you said take cuz we all know son like damn ain't nobody like everybody compar like but you ain't nobody [ __ ] who we know [ __ ] nobody but like you said you said take that right [ __ ] right now knowing how competitive Atlanta is you don't think that [ __ ] somewh in the crowd know he in the crowd but the thing about it is she know that but it like I a listen listen I'm going to V with some of them CU I know some of them bro just because and that's then the one to elevate too yes like we like it's it's like going every circle of [ __ ] all my budy is sniper diapers yeah so we going to know who done smashed her like what about her like [ __ ] send your picture around yeah that what [ __ ] do like who this is if I DM you a girl you know what that mean who this is yeah oh that oh that you send that [ __ ] around to the [ __ ] who already who making them announcements tell them to all them [ __ ] who make them announcements they going to come back and be like I don't know her I don't know her I don't know her I don't know her she good she might be that over there in the other crowd now with what you saying go ahead but but see that's what I'm saying I'm not saying like all cuz it's impossible to say all of course of course it's a couple most yeah of course it's a couple Butterfly by The hornest Nest but [ __ ] [ __ ] I ain't going to stand by and let the [ __ ] sting me I'm getting the [ __ ] on [ __ ] them butterflies you see what I'm saying so that's all I'm saying like yeah [ __ ] can't it's hard to deci what I said on Instagram standing beside them it's hard to deci which one is which so and I like man and this thing I think think Atlanta is kind of like this [ __ ] [ __ ] you up this [ __ ] [ __ ] you up cuz it's just like the Lifey like man ain't no I ain't really seen no place like Atlanta like this [ __ ] really is the mecca of like Black Culture to me you know what I mean like I feel like [ __ ] Atlanta is like Legend like even if you just staying in Atlanta right now this [ __ ] Legend like this a legend this a legendary City so the [ __ ] that go on here it go on everywhere like that you know what I mean so it's just the the level of competition and you got you you got to be a dog to be out this [ __ ] for real yeah yeah you got to be you got to have some real dog in you for real and most and most people ain't got I ain't going to say most [ __ ] most about people that's outside but now I'm talking about even the [ __ ] working 9 to5 that don't even go nowhere and [ __ ] they can't even keep up like but you know that [ __ ] ain't but a job and and paying bill you G have to do some you GNA have to do something something he ain't gonna be able to just work come home pay bills and be straight unless your ass stay somewhere in caning or something but down here oh no we close to the city but your ass through so you think you ever lock in like on some relationship [ __ ] man I have goddamn go somewhere else not in that like how I used to be seen so much you Tain yeah there's always exception that can't I believe exceptions to the rule I don't know bro I didn't had a [ __ ] in the bed we finished and it be like you just made me commit adultery I'm like what wait what I didn't know you was married damn yeah that a know what I'm saying like a boy say that to everybody so that [ __ ] hit different like damn B that [ __ ] crazy it could be just bad in small towns though they just more sneaky and quiet going I trust that because I know Atlanta exists see what I'm saying so you ain't being brought to Atlanta and tested then you don't know see what I'm saying like she might just be like that she ain't got the opportunity see you ain't got no opportunity to be no hope everybody your daddy the preacher everybody know you in town so you Ain had no opportunity to be no hope bring her to Atlanta unleash her and then she got what she TV see see sh you see on TV right there like right there magic and [ __ ] will try you like nigg be like come here [ __ ] [ __ ] who you would never thought tell you come here tell you come here come here it going to [ __ ] you up it's going to blow your mind man I didn't seen that [ __ ] but that [ __ ] and I tell [ __ ] like man don't bring your girl up here dog don't bring your girl over here man if you if you coming from my of town you come man leave don't bring your old lady man try to move up it with her but none of that [ __ ] dead she just can't do this no more none of they can't do this no more it's too hard I think you should you think bring your girl to Atlanta you going to lock all the way in you need to know what you locking in with yeah they do it us us a woman a woman a woman will bring you around all her badass friends to see what you on yeah they do that [ __ ] to us yeah yeah yeah yeah I go yeah so expose her take her to uh you break around your don't take a center with a friends y'all go have fun n but look you take around your R po but get the poping all that sh man sh going to be in the air like this here over with what facts like they'll come back cuz a lot like I don't really know him like that anyway tell I don't really know I met him for real what we've been together two years it ain't that serious we do that take your serious like like I telling about my buddy right P who had had the bag listen man like you might be [ __ ] that really like me they might think I'm handsome but they not coming home with me but at the end of the night like if if shl say hey what's up they over with yeah I had to respect it I had like okay [ __ ] it I got to get on my grind like I ain't mad that is how the game is right now oh you got the [ __ ] you you got the [ __ ] over there with the looks his buddy got there went here he got bag put him in the pot up for you I had like I had like a oldale rain roll buty got a new bit truck baby go go with him I'm go go go with him go go [ __ ] I see you going I see you going I see you going and I ain't mad cuz I understand the game gu what I'mma have my turn and when I have my turn I don't want none of the old ho that already been [ __ ] up [ __ ] they gonna be all of them no but it's some new [ __ ] coming out the [ __ ] every day oh man it's some [ __ ] coming out the [ __ ] every day brand new don't even know what's out here yeah Michael cor Pur she Michel Michael cor Bel she cool I want to hold bottles I see they they uhuh they already know I already know they know what to buy yeah they know how person ah n i buy my cor coach i d by some Reb classes what you oh man Dam n that [ __ ] that [ __ ] real man sad reality it's Savage out here man like the wor listen man then the raapers don't [ __ ] [ __ ] man if you [ __ ] really bad man it's old we so it's really bad for real like really bad oh it's over with she might have some morals man n this [ __ ] like draing them and DM your girl just a space like put space in send it blank bubble you know what that mean this in the location [ __ ] man [ __ ] send your [ __ ] that big ass air Drake plane facts don't bring nothing they going to pick you up wherever you was standing there stand right there leave everything they going to pick you up to pick you up don't move they to pick you up in some [ __ ] take you to the helicopter helicopter to edate fly your ass to somewhere you never seen before bro you gone that would worth that whole relationship B care man this [ __ ] crazy bro was the [ __ ] true about how how the [ __ ] um how Drake had this sing out there with with her husband he sent the [ __ ] home man it was a story like it was a singer that he was like trying to I guess sign or some [ __ ] he flew her in her husband out and then like for a week or some [ __ ] and then like the last couple days sent the husband home man he [ __ ] cold I just when you about I just said my [ __ ] Joel Silver right shout out was movie producer Big Boy producer he told me a story one time I'm tell B [ __ ] it he said he said his wife when he first seen his wife she was married he told her I'mma marry you but him her and him her and her husband work for him he sent this [ __ ] on a movie for six months in a whole another state and kept the [ __ ] with him and bar I'm telling you bro well not the [ __ ] his wife but I'm just saying it's just like bro it's over with it's over with some [ __ ] what they want they can get if [ __ ] up to say that but did you see what I'm saying cuz [ __ ] put in the full work you better not be slipping a inch like a inch some you better have a slip of an inch and to see if he I'm telling you bro this [ __ ] [ __ ] up and women are cold some women I'm not I'm not um generalized I'm just saying some women are cold BR it'll be like they never knew you yeah for real [ __ ] act like she never even knew your name like you don't exist like how many times you see women do that like men can't really do that like [ __ ] with you I [ __ ] with you no matter what I'm always [ __ ] with this [ __ ] I [ __ ] with her how [ __ ] is [ __ ] be invested yeah [ __ ] be like I [ __ ] with women when they boy this [ __ ] I don't know him and be de serious like I don't know him they don't convince theirself that they don't know you oh man especially especially if it's a [ __ ] around that got some [ __ ] going on but them f w look your way boy but I feel like I feel like for a female to act like she doesn't know a [ __ ] that she wants loved it had to be something that happened but look listen I feel always going to be done happen [ __ ] going to be [ __ ] wom always got a chance to justify their action because something happened we in this [ __ ] or we in this [ __ ] but what's crazy no but what I'm saying is like Mo nine times out of 10 if if a [ __ ] is really in love with a [ __ ] like for real for real like they going to get into it they going to fall out she going to say [ __ ] him a million times but if she really loves this [ __ ] she's G to love this [ __ ] forever but if it's some [ __ ] that like some unfor a lot of women I've been hearing this [ __ ] lately a lot of women be kicking at I can learn the love a [ __ ] and they never be unlearned truly till you see some [ __ ] you really love you thought you was in love that's what most the [ __ ] most the women do they be delusional some some way like they like I heard three women say that like recently I thought I was going to learn to love him it's conveyance versus love too though I think some women men probably too whatever get convenience [ __ ] up with love yeah they they enter into the relationship with potential and they enter the relationship with uh what it could be not what it is like I can't deal with you if it ain't what it is right then like it have to be that I can't potentially feel like that and saying that I love you and knowing you trying to we trying to fall in love we trying to do hell no I can't potentially I can't fake that but if you but okay so let me ask you this then if you don't to some degree fall in love with potential then that's D how how does your how does your love get tested in order for you to be able to know whether or not you can grow with this person that's what I'm saying so it ain't it listen on one thing about it hold up scam one thing about it when a [ __ ] your person you know what it is cuzz you can't it's just something about you know when you love a person you know when you want to love a person you know when I like her a lot but you know if a [ __ ] jump out the bush with a stick you ain't F to try to tote this [ __ ] like I'mma tote my [ __ ] like man hey I'm jump in front you don't think that's that's that's the test would you die [ __ ] jump out shooter stick is you going is you going to try to c shei a [ __ ] around run but but this disconnect I had real [ __ ] though that the truth but this a disconnect though this disconnect because she's thinking like a woman that's how women like women date potential a [ __ ] going to like what he see instantly like if I like you I [ __ ] like you like if a [ __ ] say Hey you my girl we already the God damn but but if but if you like me just based off of what you see then no he saying not see you observing her not the look fact the outer when I see you I see you I don't see what you look like on the outside that's why I tell my wife hey don't ask me unbiased whatever you do going I'm going like it don't ask me if I like it don't ask me if nothing I like you so I don't give a [ __ ] what it is that [ __ ] look good you know what I'm saying so that's just what it is so I can't don't ask me on bias so we don't see potential and [ __ ] yeah we see you you yeah like if I like how you make me feel I feel that if a [ __ ] say if a [ __ ] commit like cuz I don't know like it's hard as [ __ ] for me to say I want to commit cuz if feels like I'm giving up some [ __ ] like so I feel like no no man truly wants to commit but if he find a woman that he feel like man shout shout it shout it worth of everything shout it it like then of course he's going to commit but it's not no easy [ __ ] that [ __ ] just want to do like [ __ ] Ain't just running out here to commit you see what I'm saying like [ __ ] don't want to commit H understand but a [ __ ] will if you find something that you feel like worth like I ain't going to find nothing else like sh like she one of a lifetime I ain't going to find nothing else like her so we ain't looking at her potential cuz sh you could have a a a [ __ ] pot piss in a want throw out of her [ __ ] going godamn hop down on a woman but a woman ain't just going to [ __ ] with no broke straight broke ass no car no house no n [ __ ] she's off the bat they ain't going to do that but gu what man that [ __ ] rare that [ __ ] better have a foot long a foot long goddamn she going to have something that she want he ain't going to just be it going to be something going to be something now that's what I'm saying because a lot of like well not a lot but some some some men are able to and I've seen this happen a million times before some men are able to hide or like finesse the fact that they lack some of the most essential things and then by the time by the time you understand that you've been been Boozled you know what I'm saying like it's too late you already got for you think that [ __ ] been spending the night that [ __ ] really be got there sleeping but see that but but listen one by one but see putting a pair of shoes every day but but this my thing right see women cuz people agree that like women are smarter than men right nah n I'm saying like book smart like right I'm just saying like educational wise I feel like women got more intuition than men I feel like women are more emotionally int I'mma tell you let me say this right quick before I say this I'mma tell you what men do bro and I'm go and give it up [ __ ] hate when they girl be right bro you that [ __ ] that's the only thing piss us off what pissed me off is a [ __ ] can make up something in their head and be right like how you guess that you gu right so wom got superp power now like that why I be trying to tell her like you right about a lot of that [ __ ] but some of that [ __ ] you making up so I ain't going to let you know when you're making it up I ain't going to let you know when you're right you know what I'm saying but you be right though this [ __ ] be like God but this my thing right women know what they be talking about but this my thing right what I'm saying if women are smarter than men so to speak and they believe this right you believe women smarter men I mean yeah okay so then how you get manipulated how you getting tricked then how you don't know a [ __ ] got two pair of jeans how you how you don't know yeah how you don't know that how you don't know a [ __ ] got two pair of jeans I feel like I feel like some women want to believe in the best of a [ __ ] that a [ __ ] might have another pair of jeans somewhere you know what I'm saying like but you only seeing two see I'm saying that what I'm saying like men are more L but but but the women the woman might think that the [ __ ] might not want to expose his hand right away so the two pair is what he's showing to test the water to see if it makes sense to expose the third pair see that's delusion cuz guess what you ain't never been around no rich [ __ ] that just wear two pair of jeans the [ __ ] that really got it they coming out with all this [ __ ] on especially if they like you and they trying to get you they ain't hiding nothing they putting everything on the table CU they trying to get you so a [ __ ] only let me test her with these two jeans come on you know this niggaer ain't got nothing you know it but in your mind you want to believe like I'm making get a good decision even though you know it's some [ __ ] like this [ __ ] ain't got nothing but in your mind you want to make yourself believe that he tricked me he got me he got over on me cuz you know women know man just like you said just like Bank said women got intuition you can't tell that this [ __ ] ain't got nothing yo you ain't know your baby daddy was broke before you had babies with him then you a had one with him you had another one with him yeah that [ __ ] be kind of hard like how can you say you got trick it's just hard to say you got yeah that [ __ ] when women turn into repeat offenders excuse that's excuse you know you know that's what you attract you know what I'm saying and and and and and and and no I just feel like women do make up a lot of [ __ ] in their head but how do you feel about when people say that you like what you like exactly so except that's what you like yeah and stop trying to change [ __ ] [ __ ] you don't like cuz listen bro I'm tell you bro I know like if I was to try to be anybody else but me I probably get a divorce like I'm me but I'm I mean I'm different but I'm me if that make sense what I'm saying like I'm totally different but I'm me like the mors and and [ __ ] that just boy don't do that don't say that and all that that's that's centic you get what I'm saying but I'm me so just imagine if I tried to be somebody else I don't think I would I don't think I don't think she'll go for it even though what me gets on [ __ ] nerd but I try to be something else it ain't going to work out how you a like that okay so let me ask y this then how do y'all feel about it when people say that let's just say say your significant person other person or whatever cheats on you and people say that it doesn't make sense to leave because all you g to do is hook up with another cheater because everybody I agree has their you know their I agree for women I don't know about yeah I agree for women though and I'm say I know that [ __ ] going to sound sexies or whatever they call it but I thought you about to say sexy yeah it ain't it ain't enough [ __ ] fact so you get your [ __ ] up to go find another [ __ ] who just got just got left by another female who he cheated on like it's just a Revol Circle it's just a rev it depend on what you want like cuz all men don't cheat the guys I'm just keeping it real but the guys that y'all yeah don't want be want y'all don't want them guys like I hear so many women be like he boring he didn't he didn't God sent this man fool yeah right but you looking at goddamn be over here wasting time with me you yeah you looking at scam them you know what saying who ain't boy a going ain't going ain't going a lot of [ __ ] ain't going they already know you all the man this this [ __ ] so [ __ ] up cuz most of Mo like most of the time the [ __ ] that's good good the dudes that's good dude women look at them as weird y cornball mhm so like so this nigga's a real man gentle he's a man he's a man you w look God bwood breath B you smokeing bwood cut out you want to hear you hear girl how you don't want to hear that that sound cuz cuz you addicted to the [ __ ] yeah for real and that you ain't never seen that you know your mama going to be like what she doing like y y y y your people goingon to disapprove of that that [ __ ] [ __ ] up bro where you get him from yeah H Square boy H Square Bo sh but lame here but he the one for you and and you right BR be some good ass men and it's funny cuz a lot of folk think and I I had to explain that to cuz you know whenever I do what's name podcast them folk think that [ __ ] real so it be like I be getting hate mail and I just be like damn like this sh a joke yeah you be doing like the yeah that [ __ ] hard though finess finess yeah so it be a joke but I be saying some real [ __ ] so it catch like and that's all this [ __ ] really is just getting emotional response from people you see what I'm saying and boy them folk be going crazy on this [ __ ] like and I'm just saying like man for the most part it's a lot of good [ __ ] out there it just they don't want them [ __ ] they don't like and crazy because they don't even see them [ __ ] like if you if you try to explain like a good [ __ ] they don't even them [ __ ] invisible they only talk about the [ __ ] that they like which is a small percent you see what I'm saying like every [ __ ] ain't like that but the [ __ ] that you probably going to want he like that you see what I'm saying okay I say this right I say this right a woman want a [ __ ] well not all women women want to pull up with a [ __ ] that other [ __ ] respect and and all the [ __ ] that's what it is bro and all the [ __ ] want yeah that's what I'm saying they want to pull yeah pull up with a niggga that ever that the [ __ ] respect and the [ __ ] want that's other than that man not a [ __ ] that's like okay that that that want them [ __ ] who the [ __ ] who like cuz she want to feel a slight sense of of that yeah yeah that you might can yeah like cuz if I feel like I'm the only one want you then no no thrill this ain't man no thrill I feel like they want a [ __ ] they want a niggga to get all the hoes but then they want to get the [ __ ] and make the niggaer not get no more ho damn like I want you to be able to get all the hoes but I don't want I be able to stop you from getting all the hoes to say that I was the one yeah when have you seen that done before that why I keep trying to add the the lates like you seen you you seen your whoever your cousin get cheated on your sister everybody in the circle every no not get cheated on your brother is a cheater your uncle your daddy your cousin your nephew you done help him he ain't here girl he was here all night you done help people cheat what makes you think you f to get the [ __ ] that don't if he D type of [ __ ] I'm not saying all men cheat I'm saying like certain type of [ __ ] is just outside and them [ __ ] it too many I ain't going lie bro I say I think all men do cheat I think you only as faithful as your options I feel like nigg if a [ __ ] ain't capable of cheat then he ain't and most [ __ ] is broke and working for that 30 hours of God damn 24 hours a day they can't cheat [ __ ] depend what your focus is man I'm like I know [ __ ] is [ __ ] in the factory that what I'm saying work them nigg who got there got time to to talk talk they work B out that [ __ ] the [ __ ] nigg super cheating them R [ __ ] they s right there on the they they did a study and show like the the Lesser [ __ ] make the more likely he is to be faithful versus the more money a [ __ ] make the more he you know that though come on but that's what I'm saying so I'm saying like any like what I say to women is like what [ __ ] don't want to be a king like if if if you walk up to a man on the street like but some that [ __ ] don't make some [ __ ] King though other [ __ ] make some I know but I'm just saying like I the reason why I use the term King is because like okay [ __ ] what king had one Queen and no conine just for real like what king just had one wife one and he just was n that [ __ ] [ __ ] everything boy it was a [ __ ] in China boy this [ __ ] if you want to work next to the emperor you had to chop your dick off cuz he had so many hoes you had to chop your dick off to work in the castle in the padet cuz he ain't want you to godamn cuz you know she I know you ain't [ __ ] exactly but he a [ __ ] na here he going to [ __ ] nothing in here cuz guess why [ __ ] I cuz my my my son going to be a Heir so you can't like it ain't no practic test and all DNA test and [ __ ] so you leave your dick at the door come work in the [ __ ] so just think like all I'm saying is like you walk up to any average man and be like hey you you want to be king king of Atlanta for the day what [ __ ] going be like nah like hell yeah I want to cuz Men We value that [ __ ] we value power and Prestige and status and [ __ ] like that ambition you see I'm saying so you saying you saying basically like Ain a [ __ ] if a [ __ ] in a [ __ ] in the right situation to go yeah yeah give a [ __ ] 100 Mil boy what that [ __ ] dick GNA fall off F 100 million and everybody know it everybody know you got 100 milon women know you got 100 million my debate my only debate you got it might and it might be a lot more rare that just mean don't no loyalty exists nowhere for nobody but that philosophy I'm just saying with that philosophy then n but but but but but I got I got I gotta disagree on that because loyalty ain't to me loyalty ain't defined by sex yeah what you talking about to say I'm say he said he just saying get some [ __ ] I ain't saying like leave my wife [ __ ] oh you saying like that I'm saying you some [ __ ] I'm going to play I'm to I'm not I'm not no advocate for Cheetos or none of that but I'm saying is I get what he's saying yeah for real am I Tripp it what I'm saying he's saying like you never know what position you get in and where you start to see yourself at when you start when other people start to see you different but I can't I get what you saying no I I hear what he saying I'm just saying that you that's really it for real so okay so let me let me rephrase then so money will change you but do y'all think loyalty do you think a person if a person cheat on you they're disloyal to you if if y'all if y ain't got the agreement don't cheat H if the agreement if if if if if if if if you cheated on your dude right do you feel like you disloyal to him keep it real yeah I do it depends on how you unless unless unless unless she has an understanding with him that you can cheat n it ain't no understanding with that type of [ __ ] like if I'm with you no it's an understand some people have open relationship with you or whatever then like I'm with you if we've agreed to be together or if we've agreed to do this [ __ ] or however the [ __ ] whatever like say for instance um what if you done did everything else to do everything you took care you got them you there for them they sick they locked up anything you there right but you [ __ ] are you disloyal or unfaith both both unless some some one says you I I know that you're cheating and I don't give look the word see I look that up that's a good I'm telling you look up the word loyalty Loy look at the word loyalty and look up unfaith I think we did this one time on on another podcast on on big facts but are you disloyal or Unfaithful both Unfaithful both that's cold right now right Elite cuz a [ __ ] can do some disloyal [ __ ] to you and be faithful to you disloyal means failing to be loyal to a person or body to which one has obligations but loyalty Unfaithful but loyalty the word faithfulness is in loyalty what's what's lloy faithfulness in a steadfast face of Temptation renounced desert or betray see I'm getting a whole different what's name I don't know strong feeling of support or Alliance thank you that's what that that's Unfaithful is which one you looked up I think this sh Oxford yeah this Oxford I'm saying what's the name loyer you look up loyalty all right loyalty is what a strong feeling of support or Alliance so if you ain't broke the support of Alli or Alliance the alliance could be no the alliance could it's black the alliance the alliance could be that we ain't going to cheat I'm saying we go down that rabbit hole huh we can go down that rabbit holead but if someone does something the respect to make you feel betrayed then it violates loyalty and faithfulness what okay Faith that's all I'm saying of being fa yeah that's like say that's like saying just on some homeboy [ __ ] all right this homeboy always did everything right but then snitch who he told him you see what I'm saying though but but see it's different because like faithfulness is almost like crazy you know that way that's that's the new [ __ ] out here now like [ __ ] ain't told on me who he told on [ __ ] like that's the new [ __ ] that [ __ ] crazy and what's [ __ ] is disgusting I'm so glad I'm so glad I'm a comedian y boy I ain't even got to worry about this [ __ ] I don't even give a [ __ ] about this [ __ ] like boy I'm so glad I ain't even like even cuz it's like man this [ __ ] different bro like I this [ __ ] just way different I never thought that I see today that this [ __ ] would be like you know what I mean [ __ ] R and just keep rapping and keep you know what I mean this [ __ ] crazy for real 2024 so that's why I'm so we I listen man and I always take the [ __ ] to weird space because my mind just be weird sometimes y'all my mind be weird sometime but you see how we create AI right it's Dam nck can can grow to be a life for because AI going to be AI like robots going to be able to make other robots right M it's like a birth go hold up hold up being H me out all right so that's that's basically not humans I guess we're humans not that's basically another form of humanity right if they if they just go to building [ __ ] they we got our own fact we building [ __ ] and they multiply multiply multiply right who's to say that another planet didn't make us and the same [ __ ] hold on hold on hold on let me let me get this off the same little little plug ups and [ __ ] we putting in them they just electric they could have found some [ __ ] like brains organs and all that it's the same [ __ ] cuz it's from a different planet right it's still got damn [ __ ] this uh this at the top [ __ ] this the hard drive no real [ __ ] though am I tripping we got a hard drive computer we got we got a whole our bodies are basically computers right yeah they work like them similar cars if you think about a car car got engine who [ __ ] huh who controls all that what you mean who controls it we probably ran nor Atlanta philosophy that [ __ ] making s though J yeah it ain't but it listen bro we so if AI run off right now who's to say Humanity didn't run off so how they ain't find us if they was in control of us I'm saying we we can we can find a them [ __ ] bucking with sticks and [ __ ] they they them folk gret them folk they [ __ ] they they what they is now I ever heard little Fishbowl Theory what's that basically like the aliens tray the humanity and they just watch us I believe need that bro fish bowl the like like like you know how you just go and look at the fish tank the fish don't know you outside that [ __ ] they don't know what's going on outside the [ __ ] so it's a theory where they say like aliens created us and they just monitor us they just watch yeah I believe they just be watching us and [ __ ] I feel like it's too many of us for that [ __ ] to be going on what bro listen but but but how many shit's on the game you play the game right now you play a whole universe a whole world this [ __ ] is a real world in the yeah that a making [ __ ] you put [ __ ] on your you D near in that [ __ ] I just did a virtual reality [ __ ] over by um by um how me and Shante and dating went that [ __ ] that [ __ ] is real when you put them [ __ ] on your body you DN there you in there yeah the metaverse all that [ __ ] I don't know I think I think is we even woke now go rabbit B even W like [ __ ] you dreams and [ __ ] feel so real now come back so many times for me every day like I think I'm glitched up but you right but listen I had a dream and woke up and had to realize I had kids and [ __ ] I had a dream that I felt like [ __ ] I had a dream that I felt like I was there for like three months like I was living a whole life and all kind of [ __ ] Apartments trapping and all kind of [ __ ] and I woke up [ __ ] I had to be like where the [ __ ] I'm at I thought this [ __ ] was fake I thought what I was at was fake and the dream was real not real [ __ ] yeah that when they say you tapping in you can't determine well you know black folk about to get piles and [ __ ] super piles and [ __ ] huh Black Folk about to get super piles and [ __ ] y'all a see that what's yeah boy they saying Black Folk DNA DNA about to unlock and all kind of [ __ ] about to happen boy I just want to be a to fly and [ __ ] super speed I do think the Matrix I do think the Matrix [ __ ] was real though I do think we plug in and plug out when we go to sleep and wake up can't tell me bro I know I know I be glitching bro I ain't the only [ __ ] glitching y'all [ __ ] just don't be keeping it real [ __ ] just be trying to act like it don't exist I see everything you know what I'm saying you cuz with that fish sandwich yeah man what we doing scream about right it's all good man we appreciate you pulling up the big facts you know what I'm saying let everybody know where they can tap in with you and what you got coming up man look man y'all can tap in with me on YouTube Facebook Instagram Tik Tok everything all the same JQ health is cerski GQ Health J us s t q e H3 FF man the kid that did man you know what I mean if you think only those who think like that think like that man so yeah there it is check us out. bfa.com subscribe like comment share all that on the bigf network salute salute	mean that [ __ ] real real you got to get back up St you just got to get in your bag right yeah yeah but but it's like like I said like it's about time so like that's why you do it every night so you can got damn sharpen your your skills no we had um we had my man on here man don't you you got to get you gotta got damn we just had Henry up here right oh yeah yeah Henry my boy yeah Henry said the same [ __ ] like you got to exercise [ __ ] going and 100 50 people rooms 25 people in the room you still gota go work your material even if you comeing in [ __ ] working on us yeah for real people you got to work that material bro if a n GNA do this [ __ ] n gota do it all the way no but see that's what I was saying like so I noticed like if you try to do that and the content one of them going to suffer see what I'm saying so why you say that because like the amount of time that you got to take like like [ __ ] what's her name did it country Wayne did it but he he I'm saying like them [ __ ] beat but but what I'm saying like once they did one of them surer I ain't going to	2	6	8	mean that real real you got to get back up St you just got to get in your bag right yeah yeah but but it's like like I said like it's about time so like that's why you do it every night so you can got damn sharpen your your skills no we had um we had my man on here man don't you you got to get you gotta got damn we just had Henry up here right oh yeah yeah Henry my boy yeah Henry said the same like you got to exercise going and 100 50 people rooms 25 people in the room you still gota go work your material even if you comeing in working on us yeah for real people you got to work that material bro if a n GNA do this n gota do it all the way	like what I was saying like so I noticed like if you try to do that and the content one of them going to suffer see what I'm saying so why you say that because like the amount of time that you got to take like like what's her name did it country Wayne did it but he he I'm saying like them beat but but what I'm saying like once they did one of them surer I ain't going to	7,5,8	3,-1,4	7	5	8	3	-1	4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-Xsjx4VTfU	4,038	q-Xsjx4VTfU	2024-06-27 00:00:00	[Music] this is big fact Network [Music] exclusive live from the culture lab it's time for big facts big bank is here baby Jade is here DJ Scream is here we're welcoming today a comedian that's very funny you see him online give it up for scam lightly on big facts what's up what's up what's up bro you good man yeah man I have made it man so what you say you scam your way on the big F tell tell us how you got on big F I want to hear the whole story yeah so look man I got damn I had hit bank account but goddamn Bank was so cool about we worked some [ __ ] out and then goam you know I mean I owe them so so this a transaction yeah this transaction I just [ __ ] with you no man for real like shout out my manager uh y sh man brother and you know I mean we been had linked up like I came and did skit on y'all um on the podcast what that was like about a year ago yeah so U man just kept working kept grinding and boom back here so is your Origins comedy or what was you doing before that no I was in some whole other [ __ ] some whole other [ __ ] you can talk about or you can't talk about I can't allegedly I say allegedly but now for real I was like uh I was um in the streets just like I ain't G to say everybody else but pretty much you know I demographic I came from the same [ __ ] PIV it and I was always doing I was always like stupid my whole life I can say that I was slow I was slow so I been I've been should have step in comedy but I kind of running from it you know what I mean cuz I Ain I ain't I was I wasn't in no position to be laughed at at the time so when I finally took it serious sat down two months that [ __ ] was out of here at what point did you know you was funny man since I was little I ain't gonna lie like I said I always been a CL clown I always been a [ __ ] roast and always I I I had to fight [ __ ] I roast so good you know what I mean so I always had that aspect to me so I just when I really took it serious like man I'm going to do this comedy [ __ ] like full-fledged nothing else I'm sit down and do it like I said that sh was out of here but I I will say like I I do feel like it chose me instead of me choosing it you know I mean do you think it's important to be able to do like other other types of comedies like AC in the movie Stand Up and all that type of stuff too or or or or is it if you're a one lane type of comedian is that cool in your opinion I I mean I feel like whatever you comfortable with see what I'm saying because a lot of people ain't comfortable with that stage you know I mean I didn't did all of it so like I don't know like for me I didn't get all of it you know I mean but for everybody I like stand up ain't for everybody you know I mean that [ __ ] a whole different monster you know I me why you say that because it's like like it's [ __ ] that you got to know like you got to know time you know I mean you got to know punch lines you got to know how to build a joke up you know you got to sit traps type [ __ ] I mean so it's like an art front for like it's actually some people that probably ain't even funny in real life but they comedians you see what I'm saying cuz they just know the art of telling jokes ver being just naturally funny like you might be naturally funny and get on stage and can't you that's true just how some of these rap [ __ ] be lying boom same way but they sound good exactly that [ __ ] sound good [ __ ] make [ __ ] sound good you go get some money yeah how it go what's the inspiration for your skits uh cuz a lot of it seem like day-to-day just man really just like life and um me like because and I say that because [ __ ] I'm damn near like a psych patient like you know I mean my mama was a paranoid schizophrenic so I come from like my mind be racing so this [ __ ] like therapy for me I just get to get out [ __ ] that's just in my mind all day which is some stupid [ __ ] that I just be thinking about so now I get to relay that on on on camera so let me answer this so just going back to what you said about your mom how was it growing up in a household with somebody that was battling mental illness like that uh definitely a struggle definitely definitely a struggle like uh I want to say my mom probably was your dad there yeah yeah actually my dad raised me like um okay RP my dad um he actually like like when they split my dad took me so I ra with my dad you know what I mean like okay and and he was a old man like my dad was born 1929 he was in World War II real [ __ ] on God everything my dad born in 1929 [ __ ] in World War II so I so so I be having more on God how how old was your daddy when he had you he had me he was like 50 something okay that that add up yeah yeah yeah okay yeah I'm talking about dead that [ __ ] was in World War II so so he put certain mors and [ __ ] in a [ __ ] that I know people ain't even got no more you know what I mean so that's why people be thinking I sound how I do because you know what I mean like I was raised with a Elder you know I mean that [ __ ] was a real Elder you see what I'm saying so with him he was like the um coherent parent of the group you see what I'm saying my mama was wild Young illness type [ __ ] so my daddy was like the one that took us and raised us you see what I'm saying but growing up in the house with that [ __ ] yeah that [ __ ] was a struggle I think that's why I get my comedic comedic side front cuz my mama she Ain have no fut she'll say anything to anybody at any time and like people didn't know she was you know I mean she was like she had the illness or whatever and they thought that she was trying to be funny or like but it was funny though it was funny though I can't C like my MMA was funny as hell though like rip she was funny as hell she Ain what she'll say anything out M like a like a child worse like a adult that know better but still say some [ __ ] like like for real like your homeboy might come over there she might just look at your homeboy and say some [ __ ] like I bet your dick little out of nowhere real [ __ ] where you from originally originally I was born in tusi Alabama I was born in my grandma house 46 yeah I went to school down there oh you did yeah they told you with the locals oh I'm cool with a couple of them shouts the street of Frank Walkin some of them so was your daddy a part of the experiment that they did down there no uh no my dad U he was from Chicago so he had came later but yeah Tusk experiments like a lot of my family members and [ __ ] was affected by that like d yeah did they ever give them reparations for that I think they just now I think they just yeah yeah they did yeah they did yeah they they got reparation for it but it was only like a small group of them left by time they did get to him what you think about this [ __ ] cat you watch that cat we [ __ ] yeah hell what you think about that I think it's a lot of truth to it like I don't know I don't know them folk person I don't want to say too much cuz godamn I ain't trying to get black ball before I get I just talking [ __ ] but now I I I definitely I see that [ __ ] here like you know I mean it's like a you know kind of like a little pecking order gatekeeping type [ __ ] like people gatekeep in all rounds no matter how big small so I think every city got that [ __ ] and then you get to the industry they got their own Gatekeepers so or you feel like they be trying to hold [ __ ] out you think you think that's possible yeah well I ain't going to say it I I think if you weak if you weak it'll stop you like [ __ ] like you know what I mean if you don't say [ __ ] I'm make it anyway know I mean it can scare you off and you just like I seen some with um the Wayne brother he was like somebody said something to him and he start doing stand up for like 10 years so that [ __ ] can really you know what I mean shake you in the wrong way you the whole body if you let it you know I mean but I feel like if you're a [ __ ] that come from nothing I truly feel like what's for you is for you though that's true I don't know it might be harder for you I don't feel like no n can keep you out yeah it might keep you out of they Circle yeah that's what said they situation yeah but this [ __ ] too big man you can make a way man I be [ __ ] excuses I feel but I I I feel the way you feel but I also feel like if the right [ __ ] sprays your name then it's going to be I don't want to say next to Impossible but it can be super [ __ ] overly extremely difficult in mostu but it's it's it still B down to B down to how hard you go look at the [ __ ] that they do spray the [ __ ] going hard about this [ __ ] man yeah but [ __ ] look how I look that's true look look at the [ __ ] who it's a it's a it's a lot of casual to that [ __ ] what I'm saying it's a lot of casualty to that [ __ ] because I feel like you laid down at the end of the day that's true that what I said what I said like if you weak you going to fold you going to fold in on yourself that [ __ ] really be mental like if somebody get in your head and you don't get that [ __ ] out Bo like [ __ ] what's the [ __ ] name B Simon that [ __ ] went what number one FK got in that [ __ ] head he Ain like performing to his best n they ain't getting they ain't getting his head he want it he W it he W it yeah sometimes CU I I don't really know a lot about that [ __ ] I just know R talked about him in the song he said like Ben Timmons I ain't going nowhere or something yeah he had a hell of a agent he had a hell of a agent they giving him money based on what they thought he might be able to do what I'm saying he ain't never do it though but the [ __ ] it paid him based off of his potential exactly but he got man he got gunshot BR the man wouldn't even shoot the basketball man that's in your head he wouldn't even take a shot n he ain't shoo bro cuz he wasn't going to make it man he didn't shoot it he could he could he didn't even drive I'm just saying if okay let's take Ben Simmons maybe I'm being in a homer and let's take Ant-Man all right Antman shoot that's what I was saying last night what I said what I said if you weak I'm saying like he mentally KN up it's you right I see what you say you say take the shot forget that like an is from the west side that dog I know to do matter [ __ ] lay down everywhere it's a [ __ ] laying down on every side of town same how you name one [ __ ] that stood up I bet we can a fire [ __ ] that done laid down laid down [ __ ] [ __ ] up Z they ain't do nothing to Zion he did it to himself I mean who Z the big dude who be smashing the porn or whatever Zion Williamson the boy can jump though like boy can jump yeah you getting paid to jump jumping don't win championships and games but it's early too though early super early he got he got a minute man he still got he got time to like when did he get signed once you he been in the league six years that ain't ear I been in about six years yeah I'm thinking like three n he been playing hurt two of them oh yeah that's what it is that's that's what it is that's is my opinion when when it comes to like the athlete [ __ ] some people just ain't got it but that's what I'm saying like people I think a lot of people put emphasis on it like that [ __ ] just everywhere that [ __ ] ain't that [ __ ] real rare but if but if you're not it and then on top of that you don't have self-esteem then like you're going you're going to flop every time you going to f in on yourself like you going to be your worst enemy you going to godamn you're going to implode facts hey what what a character scam come from man this [ __ ] so crazy so the the interview that future did with Kevin Sam I watched that interview I like well that [ __ ] don't give a [ __ ] about [ __ ] just just his demeanor how he was just like yeah I me a [ __ ] by like I like but this [ __ ] just so nonchalant so I was like damn what if the scammer was like that like [ __ ] just pull all kind of moves don't give a [ __ ] about the consequences so and it's crazy I watched I I the interview was on TV and I just like hey I want to shoot a skit by the Atlanta scammer and then in like 10 minutes I just he like he need a name I was like [ __ ] scam like Le oh like scam likely I'm like no not likely but like Le like l e e so I just ran with that [ __ ] and that [ __ ] just stuck so hard that people like people don't even call me by my name they just call me scam introdu you fact so I like [ __ ] scam so I just ran with it man and that [ __ ] just naturally like took off because I feel like you know that's what we living in anyway what you think about SC game I mean [ __ ] is though you go with your move like you had if it made sense yeah yeah [ __ ] me too if it made sense like I feel like I did everything it is to do in the streets like everything like a [ __ ] that played all positions in that [ __ ] I had been a fake ass little pimp before godamn s everything it is I did everything so [ __ ] why not riding around that man we was making no money man but that [ __ ] him [ __ ] the hard [ __ ] listen [ __ ] listen sh but then the crazy thing is just talking to them folk like when you talk like real PE and [ __ ] they be like you got to coach the [ __ ] talk I ain't got the patience to keep talking to no [ __ ] about some [ __ ] just keep on telling you some [ __ ] that you should know [ __ ] that I go get me some drugs or something baby this [ __ ] slow oh when with that turning point though huh like the Turn Point like man I'm just feel cuz you always legit now right yo for sure why he looking around I won't be on big face for real no I am though we in the turtle what it was though like you know [ __ ] I ain't going to lie but you know the pandemic had [ __ ] boom [ __ ] was eating good like you know I mean so I had enough money to where I was like damn I can kind of ease up off this you know I mean this [ __ ] cuz at first like I said I I never wanted to do comedy because of that like I mean I was dealing with [ __ ] in the street I ain't really want no [ __ ] to feel like I was no funny [ __ ] you know what I mean when you dealing with certain amount of money so once I once I felt like I made enough money then I was like [ __ ] I can kind of start doing comedy like you know doing my skits and [ __ ] so like I said I had sat down like um my turning my main turning point though was and this is trueu I had went to Miami for new years and [ __ ] so I had on took a I thought was edible so I ate a edible but I don't know what for issue was like it it had to be like strs or something yeah cuz boy I had the worst trip of my life [ __ ] like I'm I'm I'm zooed you know you you know when you get too high you think you about to die and [ __ ] that's what I was on I'm like well I'm I'm G I'm out of here so so I walk to the gas station to get some milk drunk drunk drunk a gallon of milk that man that [ __ ] only wors when you swallow dope no no that milk workk any natural high and that milk work that sh why the [ __ ] y'all ain't G me milk that day I was TR to die want to see it you milk what you talking about let no El kill you bro you just tripping but that how that [ __ ] had me that [ __ ] do that [ __ ] take you to a psychedelic listen boy that [ __ ] had listen I swear to God on everything I got back to the room after drinking the milk [ __ ] I lay on the bed I'm like I'm going to die I just Clos my eyes I'm in the universe I'm just in the universe like but I can see my body on the bed with my ey closed I owe my eyes I'm back in the room close my eyes I'm in the universe so I start seeing myself on stage with a microphone like that was astro Projection what when you had that where you supposed to be at though that's what I was saying like but I think what it is though I think it's it's like a unified Feld and you see all the possibilities that you can be right so that was me in the future looking back at me like see what I'm saying even with Dreams yeah exactly like [ __ ] was telling me come on like do what we on so I'm like man I'm going to do this [ __ ] then I got back to Atlanta boy my cousin was standing with him but [ __ ] tow tow a hole in my head thing gone you yeah why part me empty [ __ ] gone all [ __ ] gone you know I mean see make sense yeah I see see yeah we CH we chopped up and [ __ ] y chopped it up yeah I mean you was just like no regular chop up like you know I mean but you know I mean like like what what the excuse was why he broke in your [ __ ] no I say he was standing [ __ ] that [ __ ] a break in that [ __ ] lit there I'm saying where the excuse was taking out with the [ __ ] uh I don't even remember so about like he probably felt like I owed him or some [ __ ] yeah but it probably wasn't that you know what I mean but like he was staying with you and you owed him it be like that sometime the [ __ ] kind of [ __ ] but but you just know like you know I mean like [ __ ] was just getting out the fed you know [ __ ] PTSD like you know what I mean home to steep so you know what I mean home you doing stand up yeah yeah I didn't I didn't did stand up I did step away from it though cuz like I said it's it's so much politics and that [ __ ] and that [ __ ] ain't paying nothing they think it ain't paying nothing I got a little something for you want do [ __ ] show yeah we September I when is it April May damn that's May May 4th Saturday May 4 okay you know I got I gota get back on stage that [ __ ] A that [ __ ] ain't just like no just you know I mean that [ __ ] real real you got to get back up St you just got to get in your bag right yeah yeah but but it's like like I said like it's about time so like that's why you do it every night so you can got damn sharpen your your skills no we had um we had my man on here man don't you you got to get you gotta got damn we just had Henry up here right oh yeah yeah Henry my boy yeah Henry said the same [ __ ] like you got to exercise [ __ ] going and 100 50 people rooms 25 people in the room you still gota go work your material even if you comeing in [ __ ] working on us yeah for real people you got to work that material bro if a n GNA do this [ __ ] n gota do it all the way no but see that's what I was saying like so I noticed like if you try to do that and the content one of them going to suffer see what I'm saying so why you say that because like the amount of time that you got to take like like [ __ ] what's her name did it country Wayne did it but he he I'm saying like them [ __ ] beat but but what I'm saying like once they did one of them surer I ain't going to say like the quality of the content serer but the amount that you putting out going to go down you got to balance it at that point you got to balance it yeah I know it but I'm saying like far as like especially like now because [ __ ] gate you see what I'm saying so it's still like I ain't like [ __ ] don't like internet comedians for real that I to say really respect yeah exactly like you get chance pause edit you get a chance do all that [ __ ] want that [ __ ] on the spot but but it's the thing though it's like she like they it's kind of like the old mindset like how [ __ ] was Pass Out CD ain't no more CD so [ __ ] don't know how to transition you see what I'm saying so it's kind of like that like they be want you to just only do stand up rooms and [ __ ] but it's like I got the internet why would I go touch a whole another see what I'm saying like you can reach way more still though them [ __ ] but [ __ ] Ain't Going [ __ ] [ __ ] don't really internet comedian oh but iig who like being the trench you know what I'm saying the people do like I love it yeah but I'm saying like comedians who gotdamn know where they got it from gotam getting them $20 nights godamn [ __ ] [ __ ] that got a drink you know saying [ __ ] get a [ __ ] [ __ ] like them nigg feel like they got it out the mud but that's still like a yeah [ __ ] up um perspective but I get it you know what I'm saying for what they feel like what they put in every comedian should put in but [ __ ] something it's the luck of the [ __ ] gu what I got this [ __ ] out the mud too I got this [ __ ] with a phone and a goddamn ring light a cheat one at that godamn exactly you know I mean cord breaking off that [ __ ] I had to wire that b back together put some tape around it so it's the same [ __ ] it's just like I said it's people perspective like you know what I mean and me honestly I ain't going to give a [ __ ] what another [ __ ] think about me like [ __ ] I ain't in it to be you know I mean I mean do you feel do you feel sometime like man yeah I need I need to goam go and get in that I need to go on and Mer that part so then let them know I can do it do you ever ever get but I did I ain't going to lie I did you see what I'm saying like I performed at a you know what I mean like a at a high stage what you know I mean [ __ ] some big dogs from the city like boy you got it know I mean it just like I said that [ __ ] wasn't making no sense for me and it's taking away from some [ __ ] that do make money so what I'm saying like I'm making money on Instagram and Facebook and [ __ ] like that so I'm making way more money than I would be trying to do taking a risk anything $200 [ __ ] you got to get into it with anything n that [ __ ] your security none of that [ __ ] yeah that [ __ ] A you been spank the [ __ ] on camera for what hell cuz the nigg [ __ ] G they move yeah cuz I ain't going to think I'm black out a whole another side be like oh n that [ __ ] don't even want that turn the big to workout what it name big Q got turn the big Q onig ass yeah I don't even want to play n but you get what I'm saying though yeah that [ __ ] that that don't make sense to be cuz I went gotam I would just say if I I want to be a rapper right there I would do my [ __ ] online I wouldn't be at no open mics that [ __ ] dangerous yeah what I'm saying like [ __ ] like like you not going to gain no fans from that [ __ ] like I had a homeboy yes you are no you yes you are fans from what okay from from like open m stand up talk open mik rapping or you talking about stand up comedian stand up comedian I'm saying you make no money off no you might not make no money off of it but you like people will put your name with your face and it'll like help increase your family I agree that but well you got to get on the internet the internet no the internet is definitely over it but I'm saying touching the people is is going to make a difference also but most of the people outside [ __ ] but then what I say though like other crew y'all rapping my bad J y'all rapping other crew other open mic and you f then we got to get into it cuz you f yeah how this [ __ ] go comedian comedian okay we on the same show together [ __ ] mad at me cuz I just was funny as hell y that'll get you [ __ ] up real talk like cuz then they ain't going to want to put you on their show you see what I'm saying because every like I feel like most comedians everybody want to feel like the funnyest [ __ ] in the room just like okay a artist right let's say if two artists in the room and one get to playing his music the other [ __ ] going to get be ready for him to cut him music off so he can play his [ __ ] like come on man r that [ __ ] up so I can play my [ __ ] my [ __ ] F like your [ __ ] cool but my [ __ ] so it's the same thing you know mean it's the same [ __ ] and doing open mics [ __ ] steal your jokes I had a [ __ ] steal my whole [ __ ] and do the [ __ ] the next day because I was like I ain't know you see what I'm saying so they we was talking about that yeah so they'll tell you like don't do open mics and comedy cuz writers and [ __ ] be in the crowd to Ste [ __ ] jokes remix so it's a conspiracy yeah GNA remix your [ __ ] yeah like he ain't going nowh with that he funny I see what he Tred to do I'm show how to do it like your delivery or something might be off what I'm saying you how to do you a real funny ass [ __ ] get your [ __ ] too fast I know how to do it I know how to perform the joke better than and then boom got some of they [ __ ] with your [ __ ] that [ __ ] is that [ __ ] out of here TV so it just this [ __ ] just like I said sh just like a rap game you had to skit one time about like dating in Atlanta and [ __ ] what's your like what's your take on dating in Atlanta man have fun God damn don't take nothing serious like this [ __ ] ain't serious out here for real what you mean I feel like this [ __ ] a big ass high school for real I mean like Atlanta man I I would me personally I wouldn't like for love and no [ __ ] out here like for real like I feel like if you ain't already got it like new generation New Age day this [ __ ] over with like if you ain't already got love and marriage and wife and all that [ __ ] over with in Atlanta as of today it's a rap what you saying in a certain age group or just period or just period because everybody mind mind frames have change you see what I'm saying everybody mind is right now she it's okay to hurt whoever is long as is you happy like everybody feel like everything Justified as long as I'm looking out for me and I'm happy then she it's whatever it's cold real you saying no no consideration for nobody nobody if you look at everything everybody talking about online and all the toxicity [ __ ] everybody really just out for self and it's okay like like everybody promoe it's okay to be for yourself like no team ball no nothing I ain't going to lie I I help a lot of people though but I I I I've been on that lately like [ __ ] that I got to figure me out cuz that's the way the world live bro yeah but that's what I'm saying saying that the way the world live like whoever with me like this [ __ ] we doing yeah yeah this me figuring me out I can't worry about goddamn going play goddamn tennis yeah you know what I'm saying cuz my my buddy want to play tennis all day ain't no money in tennis bro for me I need to be right here doing this [ __ ] so I got to do what serve me I don't I don't knock that so that's why that's why I'm saying like the D SC sh like that like [ __ ] ain't nobody really going to stick it out with no [ __ ] till it's too late you see what I'm saying like that's how I feel anyway from my experience and your ass ain't lit ain't got nothing for you so you saying like the ho going anyway going gone they gone get the elevator with that SM that B that b he don't know what you say oh yeah really that that Clyde Christian but you know what I mean CDE be G out of here what's that come on what floor you stay on oh seven whole time [ __ ] paying for the [ __ ] all kind of [ __ ] tricky you don't think it's a circle though I think you don't think it's the circle like it's like that circle of people he right see see see you you speaking from where you at he's saying like outside the circle is different though but I but but this the thing I say with men it might be you see what I'm saying like for the for the men that's outside that Circle they don't know what we talking about see what I'm saying they don't but all the women know because they all going to get brought into that Circle see what I'm saying all women been out somewhere and a [ __ ] didn't caught they ey [ __ ] with some money and they gone they gone cuz Atlanta like Atlanta like people it's a wom that it's a wom that be it's a women that be up in Chastain Park at some [ __ ] Neil Soul jazz [ __ ] that be out the way yeah you talking about a different Circle CC you talking about the hook you talking about the Hooka Circle no uh I'm talking about all walk the [ __ ] is the hookah Circle CC the hookah lounges and [ __ ] n I'm talking about all no but I mean it's it's people like it's people that go to the hookah lounges the hookah Circle or whatever they got their own money that's not giv a Fu about what another [ __ ] got but it's not that it's not also just about money see that's what like I ain't saying like what it is SC it's just that stuff on like it's just that stuff like you know certain people got that stuff right so what I'm saying is like and the reason why I say that the reason why I say that because I I watched like when I was a young [ __ ] my partner this [ __ ] had everything this [ __ ] uh drop head godamn benty truck all this [ __ ] I done watch every type of woman from every type of Walk of Life come in the [ __ ] spot and he tell them folks straight up the [ __ ] make Ann hey look you ain't going to suck like at the end of night you can get up and get the [ __ ] out and I Ain never see not one woman get up and leave like got me [ __ ] up and I seen the [ __ ] with doctors lawyers them them so-called Neo Soul [ __ ] I ain't never seen not one of them get up and say no [ __ ] up never by them folks oh now you put yourself in that position now what he saying is listen it's hoes everywhere yeah I'm talk about scientist nurse doctor D judges whatever hoes women going to be women some of them but what he's saying is he's saying the on they don't even allow theyel to pull up on bro that's what I'm saying cuz we talk it don't matter what walk a life it's still a select few women she can be outside and still won't pull up on you I know some [ __ ] who ain't going I know a lot of them going but some of them ain't going but see that's a lot of them that ain't going some of them ain't going I'mma keep it 100 he take that right [ __ ] but some of still but okay what what you said take cuz we all know son like damn ain't nobody like everybody compar like but you ain't nobody [ __ ] who we know [ __ ] nobody but like you said you said take that right [ __ ] right now knowing how competitive Atlanta is you don't think that [ __ ] somewh in the crowd know he in the crowd but the thing about it is she know that but it like I a listen listen I'm going to V with some of them CU I know some of them bro just because and that's then the one to elevate too yes like we like it's it's like going every circle of [ __ ] all my budy is sniper diapers yeah so we going to know who done smashed her like what about her like [ __ ] send your picture around yeah that what [ __ ] do like who this is if I DM you a girl you know what that mean who this is yeah oh that oh that you send that [ __ ] around to the [ __ ] who already who making them announcements tell them to all them [ __ ] who make them announcements they going to come back and be like I don't know her I don't know her I don't know her I don't know her she good she might be that over there in the other crowd now with what you saying go ahead but but see that's what I'm saying I'm not saying like all cuz it's impossible to say all of course of course it's a couple most yeah of course it's a couple Butterfly by The hornest Nest but [ __ ] [ __ ] I ain't going to stand by and let the [ __ ] sting me I'm getting the [ __ ] on [ __ ] them butterflies you see what I'm saying so that's all I'm saying like yeah [ __ ] can't it's hard to deci what I said on Instagram standing beside them it's hard to deci which one is which so and I like man and this thing I think think Atlanta is kind of like this [ __ ] [ __ ] you up this [ __ ] [ __ ] you up cuz it's just like the Lifey like man ain't no I ain't really seen no place like Atlanta like this [ __ ] really is the mecca of like Black Culture to me you know what I mean like I feel like [ __ ] Atlanta is like Legend like even if you just staying in Atlanta right now this [ __ ] Legend like this a legend this a legendary City so the [ __ ] that go on here it go on everywhere like that you know what I mean so it's just the the level of competition and you got you you got to be a dog to be out this [ __ ] for real yeah yeah you got to be you got to have some real dog in you for real and most and most people ain't got I ain't going to say most [ __ ] most about people that's outside but now I'm talking about even the [ __ ] working 9 to5 that don't even go nowhere and [ __ ] they can't even keep up like but you know that [ __ ] ain't but a job and and paying bill you G have to do some you GNA have to do something something he ain't gonna be able to just work come home pay bills and be straight unless your ass stay somewhere in caning or something but down here oh no we close to the city but your ass through so you think you ever lock in like on some relationship [ __ ] man I have goddamn go somewhere else not in that like how I used to be seen so much you Tain yeah there's always exception that can't I believe exceptions to the rule I don't know bro I didn't had a [ __ ] in the bed we finished and it be like you just made me commit adultery I'm like what wait what I didn't know you was married damn yeah that a know what I'm saying like a boy say that to everybody so that [ __ ] hit different like damn B that [ __ ] crazy it could be just bad in small towns though they just more sneaky and quiet going I trust that because I know Atlanta exists see what I'm saying so you ain't being brought to Atlanta and tested then you don't know see what I'm saying like she might just be like that she ain't got the opportunity see you ain't got no opportunity to be no hope everybody your daddy the preacher everybody know you in town so you Ain had no opportunity to be no hope bring her to Atlanta unleash her and then she got what she TV see see sh you see on TV right there like right there magic and [ __ ] will try you like nigg be like come here [ __ ] [ __ ] who you would never thought tell you come here tell you come here come here it going to [ __ ] you up it's going to blow your mind man I didn't seen that [ __ ] but that [ __ ] and I tell [ __ ] like man don't bring your girl up here dog don't bring your girl over here man if you if you coming from my of town you come man leave don't bring your old lady man try to move up it with her but none of that [ __ ] dead she just can't do this no more none of they can't do this no more it's too hard I think you should you think bring your girl to Atlanta you going to lock all the way in you need to know what you locking in with yeah they do it us us a woman a woman a woman will bring you around all her badass friends to see what you on yeah they do that [ __ ] to us yeah yeah yeah yeah I go yeah so expose her take her to uh you break around your don't take a center with a friends y'all go have fun n but look you take around your R po but get the poping all that sh man sh going to be in the air like this here over with what facts like they'll come back cuz a lot like I don't really know him like that anyway tell I don't really know I met him for real what we've been together two years it ain't that serious we do that take your serious like like I telling about my buddy right P who had had the bag listen man like you might be [ __ ] that really like me they might think I'm handsome but they not coming home with me but at the end of the night like if if shl say hey what's up they over with yeah I had to respect it I had like okay [ __ ] it I got to get on my grind like I ain't mad that is how the game is right now oh you got the [ __ ] you you got the [ __ ] over there with the looks his buddy got there went here he got bag put him in the pot up for you I had like I had like a oldale rain roll buty got a new bit truck baby go go with him I'm go go go with him go go [ __ ] I see you going I see you going I see you going and I ain't mad cuz I understand the game gu what I'mma have my turn and when I have my turn I don't want none of the old ho that already been [ __ ] up [ __ ] they gonna be all of them no but it's some new [ __ ] coming out the [ __ ] every day oh man it's some [ __ ] coming out the [ __ ] every day brand new don't even know what's out here yeah Michael cor Pur she Michel Michael cor Bel she cool I want to hold bottles I see they they uhuh they already know I already know they know what to buy yeah they know how person ah n i buy my cor coach i d by some Reb classes what you oh man Dam n that [ __ ] that [ __ ] real man sad reality it's Savage out here man like the wor listen man then the raapers don't [ __ ] [ __ ] man if you [ __ ] really bad man it's old we so it's really bad for real like really bad oh it's over with she might have some morals man n this [ __ ] like draing them and DM your girl just a space like put space in send it blank bubble you know what that mean this in the location [ __ ] man [ __ ] send your [ __ ] that big ass air Drake plane facts don't bring nothing they going to pick you up wherever you was standing there stand right there leave everything they going to pick you up to pick you up don't move they to pick you up in some [ __ ] take you to the helicopter helicopter to edate fly your ass to somewhere you never seen before bro you gone that would worth that whole relationship B care man this [ __ ] crazy bro was the [ __ ] true about how how the [ __ ] um how Drake had this sing out there with with her husband he sent the [ __ ] home man it was a story like it was a singer that he was like trying to I guess sign or some [ __ ] he flew her in her husband out and then like for a week or some [ __ ] and then like the last couple days sent the husband home man he [ __ ] cold I just when you about I just said my [ __ ] Joel Silver right shout out was movie producer Big Boy producer he told me a story one time I'm tell B [ __ ] it he said he said his wife when he first seen his wife she was married he told her I'mma marry you but him her and him her and her husband work for him he sent this [ __ ] on a movie for six months in a whole another state and kept the [ __ ] with him and bar I'm telling you bro well not the [ __ ] his wife but I'm just saying it's just like bro it's over with it's over with some [ __ ] what they want they can get if [ __ ] up to say that but did you see what I'm saying cuz [ __ ] put in the full work you better not be slipping a inch like a inch some you better have a slip of an inch and to see if he I'm telling you bro this [ __ ] [ __ ] up and women are cold some women I'm not I'm not um generalized I'm just saying some women are cold BR it'll be like they never knew you yeah for real [ __ ] act like she never even knew your name like you don't exist like how many times you see women do that like men can't really do that like [ __ ] with you I [ __ ] with you no matter what I'm always [ __ ] with this [ __ ] I [ __ ] with her how [ __ ] is [ __ ] be invested yeah [ __ ] be like I [ __ ] with women when they boy this [ __ ] I don't know him and be de serious like I don't know him they don't convince theirself that they don't know you oh man especially especially if it's a [ __ ] around that got some [ __ ] going on but them f w look your way boy but I feel like I feel like for a female to act like she doesn't know a [ __ ] that she wants loved it had to be something that happened but look listen I feel always going to be done happen [ __ ] going to be [ __ ] wom always got a chance to justify their action because something happened we in this [ __ ] or we in this [ __ ] but what's crazy no but what I'm saying is like Mo nine times out of 10 if if a [ __ ] is really in love with a [ __ ] like for real for real like they going to get into it they going to fall out she going to say [ __ ] him a million times but if she really loves this [ __ ] she's G to love this [ __ ] forever but if it's some [ __ ] that like some unfor a lot of women I've been hearing this [ __ ] lately a lot of women be kicking at I can learn the love a [ __ ] and they never be unlearned truly till you see some [ __ ] you really love you thought you was in love that's what most the [ __ ] most the women do they be delusional some some way like they like I heard three women say that like recently I thought I was going to learn to love him it's conveyance versus love too though I think some women men probably too whatever get convenience [ __ ] up with love yeah they they enter into the relationship with potential and they enter the relationship with uh what it could be not what it is like I can't deal with you if it ain't what it is right then like it have to be that I can't potentially feel like that and saying that I love you and knowing you trying to we trying to fall in love we trying to do hell no I can't potentially I can't fake that but if you but okay so let me ask you this then if you don't to some degree fall in love with potential then that's D how how does your how does your love get tested in order for you to be able to know whether or not you can grow with this person that's what I'm saying so it ain't it listen on one thing about it hold up scam one thing about it when a [ __ ] your person you know what it is cuzz you can't it's just something about you know when you love a person you know when you want to love a person you know when I like her a lot but you know if a [ __ ] jump out the bush with a stick you ain't F to try to tote this [ __ ] like I'mma tote my [ __ ] like man hey I'm jump in front you don't think that's that's that's the test would you die [ __ ] jump out shooter stick is you going is you going to try to c shei a [ __ ] around run but but this disconnect I had real [ __ ] though that the truth but this a disconnect though this disconnect because she's thinking like a woman that's how women like women date potential a [ __ ] going to like what he see instantly like if I like you I [ __ ] like you like if a [ __ ] say Hey you my girl we already the God damn but but if but if you like me just based off of what you see then no he saying not see you observing her not the look fact the outer when I see you I see you I don't see what you look like on the outside that's why I tell my wife hey don't ask me unbiased whatever you do going I'm going like it don't ask me if I like it don't ask me if nothing I like you so I don't give a [ __ ] what it is that [ __ ] look good you know what I'm saying so that's just what it is so I can't don't ask me on bias so we don't see potential and [ __ ] yeah we see you you yeah like if I like how you make me feel I feel that if a [ __ ] say if a [ __ ] commit like cuz I don't know like it's hard as [ __ ] for me to say I want to commit cuz if feels like I'm giving up some [ __ ] like so I feel like no no man truly wants to commit but if he find a woman that he feel like man shout shout it shout it worth of everything shout it it like then of course he's going to commit but it's not no easy [ __ ] that [ __ ] just want to do like [ __ ] Ain't just running out here to commit you see what I'm saying like [ __ ] don't want to commit H understand but a [ __ ] will if you find something that you feel like worth like I ain't going to find nothing else like sh like she one of a lifetime I ain't going to find nothing else like her so we ain't looking at her potential cuz sh you could have a a a [ __ ] pot piss in a want throw out of her [ __ ] going godamn hop down on a woman but a woman ain't just going to [ __ ] with no broke straight broke ass no car no house no n [ __ ] she's off the bat they ain't going to do that but gu what man that [ __ ] rare that [ __ ] better have a foot long a foot long goddamn she going to have something that she want he ain't going to just be it going to be something going to be something now that's what I'm saying because a lot of like well not a lot but some some some men are able to and I've seen this happen a million times before some men are able to hide or like finesse the fact that they lack some of the most essential things and then by the time by the time you understand that you've been been Boozled you know what I'm saying like it's too late you already got for you think that [ __ ] been spending the night that [ __ ] really be got there sleeping but see that but but listen one by one but see putting a pair of shoes every day but but this my thing right see women cuz people agree that like women are smarter than men right nah n I'm saying like book smart like right I'm just saying like educational wise I feel like women got more intuition than men I feel like women are more emotionally int I'mma tell you let me say this right quick before I say this I'mma tell you what men do bro and I'm go and give it up [ __ ] hate when they girl be right bro you that [ __ ] that's the only thing piss us off what pissed me off is a [ __ ] can make up something in their head and be right like how you guess that you gu right so wom got superp power now like that why I be trying to tell her like you right about a lot of that [ __ ] but some of that [ __ ] you making up so I ain't going to let you know when you're making it up I ain't going to let you know when you're right you know what I'm saying but you be right though this [ __ ] be like God but this my thing right women know what they be talking about but this my thing right what I'm saying if women are smarter than men so to speak and they believe this right you believe women smarter men I mean yeah okay so then how you get manipulated how you getting tricked then how you don't know a [ __ ] got two pair of jeans how you how you don't know yeah how you don't know that how you don't know a [ __ ] got two pair of jeans I feel like I feel like some women want to believe in the best of a [ __ ] that a [ __ ] might have another pair of jeans somewhere you know what I'm saying like but you only seeing two see I'm saying that what I'm saying like men are more L but but but the women the woman might think that the [ __ ] might not want to expose his hand right away so the two pair is what he's showing to test the water to see if it makes sense to expose the third pair see that's delusion cuz guess what you ain't never been around no rich [ __ ] that just wear two pair of jeans the [ __ ] that really got it they coming out with all this [ __ ] on especially if they like you and they trying to get you they ain't hiding nothing they putting everything on the table CU they trying to get you so a [ __ ] only let me test her with these two jeans come on you know this niggaer ain't got nothing you know it but in your mind you want to believe like I'm making get a good decision even though you know it's some [ __ ] like this [ __ ] ain't got nothing but in your mind you want to make yourself believe that he tricked me he got me he got over on me cuz you know women know man just like you said just like Bank said women got intuition you can't tell that this [ __ ] ain't got nothing yo you ain't know your baby daddy was broke before you had babies with him then you a had one with him you had another one with him yeah that [ __ ] be kind of hard like how can you say you got trick it's just hard to say you got yeah that [ __ ] when women turn into repeat offenders excuse that's excuse you know you know that's what you attract you know what I'm saying and and and and and and and no I just feel like women do make up a lot of [ __ ] in their head but how do you feel about when people say that you like what you like exactly so except that's what you like yeah and stop trying to change [ __ ] [ __ ] you don't like cuz listen bro I'm tell you bro I know like if I was to try to be anybody else but me I probably get a divorce like I'm me but I'm I mean I'm different but I'm me if that make sense what I'm saying like I'm totally different but I'm me like the mors and and [ __ ] that just boy don't do that don't say that and all that that's that's centic you get what I'm saying but I'm me so just imagine if I tried to be somebody else I don't think I would I don't think I don't think she'll go for it even though what me gets on [ __ ] nerd but I try to be something else it ain't going to work out how you a like that okay so let me ask y this then how do y'all feel about it when people say that let's just say say your significant person other person or whatever cheats on you and people say that it doesn't make sense to leave because all you g to do is hook up with another cheater because everybody I agree has their you know their I agree for women I don't know about yeah I agree for women though and I'm say I know that [ __ ] going to sound sexies or whatever they call it but I thought you about to say sexy yeah it ain't it ain't enough [ __ ] fact so you get your [ __ ] up to go find another [ __ ] who just got just got left by another female who he cheated on like it's just a Revol Circle it's just a rev it depend on what you want like cuz all men don't cheat the guys I'm just keeping it real but the guys that y'all yeah don't want be want y'all don't want them guys like I hear so many women be like he boring he didn't he didn't God sent this man fool yeah right but you looking at goddamn be over here wasting time with me you yeah you looking at scam them you know what saying who ain't boy a going ain't going ain't going a lot of [ __ ] ain't going they already know you all the man this this [ __ ] so [ __ ] up cuz most of Mo like most of the time the [ __ ] that's good good the dudes that's good dude women look at them as weird y cornball mhm so like so this nigga's a real man gentle he's a man he's a man you w look God bwood breath B you smokeing bwood cut out you want to hear you hear girl how you don't want to hear that that sound cuz cuz you addicted to the [ __ ] yeah for real and that you ain't never seen that you know your mama going to be like what she doing like y y y y your people goingon to disapprove of that that [ __ ] [ __ ] up bro where you get him from yeah H Square boy H Square Bo sh but lame here but he the one for you and and you right BR be some good ass men and it's funny cuz a lot of folk think and I I had to explain that to cuz you know whenever I do what's name podcast them folk think that [ __ ] real so it be like I be getting hate mail and I just be like damn like this sh a joke yeah you be doing like the yeah that [ __ ] hard though finess finess yeah so it be a joke but I be saying some real [ __ ] so it catch like and that's all this [ __ ] really is just getting emotional response from people you see what I'm saying and boy them folk be going crazy on this [ __ ] like and I'm just saying like man for the most part it's a lot of good [ __ ] out there it just they don't want them [ __ ] they don't like and crazy because they don't even see them [ __ ] like if you if you try to explain like a good [ __ ] they don't even them [ __ ] invisible they only talk about the [ __ ] that they like which is a small percent you see what I'm saying like every [ __ ] ain't like that but the [ __ ] that you probably going to want he like that you see what I'm saying okay I say this right I say this right a woman want a [ __ ] well not all women women want to pull up with a [ __ ] that other [ __ ] respect and and all the [ __ ] that's what it is bro and all the [ __ ] want yeah that's what I'm saying they want to pull yeah pull up with a niggga that ever that the [ __ ] respect and the [ __ ] want that's other than that man not a [ __ ] that's like okay that that that want them [ __ ] who the [ __ ] who like cuz she want to feel a slight sense of of that yeah yeah that you might can yeah like cuz if I feel like I'm the only one want you then no no thrill this ain't man no thrill I feel like they want a [ __ ] they want a niggga to get all the hoes but then they want to get the [ __ ] and make the niggaer not get no more ho damn like I want you to be able to get all the hoes but I don't want I be able to stop you from getting all the hoes to say that I was the one yeah when have you seen that done before that why I keep trying to add the the lates like you seen you you seen your whoever your cousin get cheated on your sister everybody in the circle every no not get cheated on your brother is a cheater your uncle your daddy your cousin your nephew you done help him he ain't here girl he was here all night you done help people cheat what makes you think you f to get the [ __ ] that don't if he D type of [ __ ] I'm not saying all men cheat I'm saying like certain type of [ __ ] is just outside and them [ __ ] it too many I ain't going lie bro I say I think all men do cheat I think you only as faithful as your options I feel like nigg if a [ __ ] ain't capable of cheat then he ain't and most [ __ ] is broke and working for that 30 hours of God damn 24 hours a day they can't cheat [ __ ] depend what your focus is man I'm like I know [ __ ] is [ __ ] in the factory that what I'm saying work them nigg who got there got time to to talk talk they work B out that [ __ ] the [ __ ] nigg super cheating them R [ __ ] they s right there on the they they did a study and show like the the Lesser [ __ ] make the more likely he is to be faithful versus the more money a [ __ ] make the more he you know that though come on but that's what I'm saying so I'm saying like any like what I say to women is like what [ __ ] don't want to be a king like if if if you walk up to a man on the street like but some that [ __ ] don't make some [ __ ] King though other [ __ ] make some I know but I'm just saying like I the reason why I use the term King is because like okay [ __ ] what king had one Queen and no conine just for real like what king just had one wife one and he just was n that [ __ ] [ __ ] everything boy it was a [ __ ] in China boy this [ __ ] if you want to work next to the emperor you had to chop your dick off cuz he had so many hoes you had to chop your dick off to work in the castle in the padet cuz he ain't want you to godamn cuz you know she I know you ain't [ __ ] exactly but he a [ __ ] na here he going to [ __ ] nothing in here cuz guess why [ __ ] I cuz my my my son going to be a Heir so you can't like it ain't no practic test and all DNA test and [ __ ] so you leave your dick at the door come work in the [ __ ] so just think like all I'm saying is like you walk up to any average man and be like hey you you want to be king king of Atlanta for the day what [ __ ] going be like nah like hell yeah I want to cuz Men We value that [ __ ] we value power and Prestige and status and [ __ ] like that ambition you see I'm saying so you saying you saying basically like Ain a [ __ ] if a [ __ ] in a [ __ ] in the right situation to go yeah yeah give a [ __ ] 100 Mil boy what that [ __ ] dick GNA fall off F 100 million and everybody know it everybody know you got 100 milon women know you got 100 million my debate my only debate you got it might and it might be a lot more rare that just mean don't no loyalty exists nowhere for nobody but that philosophy I'm just saying with that philosophy then n but but but but but I got I got I gotta disagree on that because loyalty ain't to me loyalty ain't defined by sex yeah what you talking about to say I'm say he said he just saying get some [ __ ] I ain't saying like leave my wife [ __ ] oh you saying like that I'm saying you some [ __ ] I'm going to play I'm to I'm not I'm not no advocate for Cheetos or none of that but I'm saying is I get what he's saying yeah for real am I Tripp it what I'm saying he's saying like you never know what position you get in and where you start to see yourself at when you start when other people start to see you different but I can't I get what you saying no I I hear what he saying I'm just saying that you that's really it for real so okay so let me let me rephrase then so money will change you but do y'all think loyalty do you think a person if a person cheat on you they're disloyal to you if if y'all if y ain't got the agreement don't cheat H if the agreement if if if if if if if if you cheated on your dude right do you feel like you disloyal to him keep it real yeah I do it depends on how you unless unless unless unless she has an understanding with him that you can cheat n it ain't no understanding with that type of [ __ ] like if I'm with you no it's an understand some people have open relationship with you or whatever then like I'm with you if we've agreed to be together or if we've agreed to do this [ __ ] or however the [ __ ] whatever like say for instance um what if you done did everything else to do everything you took care you got them you there for them they sick they locked up anything you there right but you [ __ ] are you disloyal or unfaith both both unless some some one says you I I know that you're cheating and I don't give look the word see I look that up that's a good I'm telling you look up the word loyalty Loy look at the word loyalty and look up unfaith I think we did this one time on on another podcast on on big facts but are you disloyal or Unfaithful both Unfaithful both that's cold right now right Elite cuz a [ __ ] can do some disloyal [ __ ] to you and be faithful to you disloyal means failing to be loyal to a person or body to which one has obligations but loyalty Unfaithful but loyalty the word faithfulness is in loyalty what's what's lloy faithfulness in a steadfast face of Temptation renounced desert or betray see I'm getting a whole different what's name I don't know strong feeling of support or Alliance thank you that's what that that's Unfaithful is which one you looked up I think this sh Oxford yeah this Oxford I'm saying what's the name loyer you look up loyalty all right loyalty is what a strong feeling of support or Alliance so if you ain't broke the support of Alli or Alliance the alliance could be no the alliance could it's black the alliance the alliance could be that we ain't going to cheat I'm saying we go down that rabbit hole huh we can go down that rabbit holead but if someone does something the respect to make you feel betrayed then it violates loyalty and faithfulness what okay Faith that's all I'm saying of being fa yeah that's like say that's like saying just on some homeboy [ __ ] all right this homeboy always did everything right but then snitch who he told him you see what I'm saying though but but see it's different because like faithfulness is almost like crazy you know that way that's that's the new [ __ ] out here now like [ __ ] ain't told on me who he told on [ __ ] like that's the new [ __ ] that [ __ ] crazy and what's [ __ ] is disgusting I'm so glad I'm so glad I'm a comedian y boy I ain't even got to worry about this [ __ ] I don't even give a [ __ ] about this [ __ ] like boy I'm so glad I ain't even like even cuz it's like man this [ __ ] different bro like I this [ __ ] just way different I never thought that I see today that this [ __ ] would be like you know what I mean [ __ ] R and just keep rapping and keep you know what I mean this [ __ ] crazy for real 2024 so that's why I'm so we I listen man and I always take the [ __ ] to weird space because my mind just be weird sometimes y'all my mind be weird sometime but you see how we create AI right it's Dam nck can can grow to be a life for because AI going to be AI like robots going to be able to make other robots right M it's like a birth go hold up hold up being H me out all right so that's that's basically not humans I guess we're humans not that's basically another form of humanity right if they if they just go to building [ __ ] they we got our own fact we building [ __ ] and they multiply multiply multiply right who's to say that another planet didn't make us and the same [ __ ] hold on hold on hold on let me let me get this off the same little little plug ups and [ __ ] we putting in them they just electric they could have found some [ __ ] like brains organs and all that it's the same [ __ ] cuz it's from a different planet right it's still got damn [ __ ] this uh this at the top [ __ ] this the hard drive no real [ __ ] though am I tripping we got a hard drive computer we got we got a whole our bodies are basically computers right yeah they work like them similar cars if you think about a car car got engine who [ __ ] huh who controls all that what you mean who controls it we probably ran nor Atlanta philosophy that [ __ ] making s though J yeah it ain't but it listen bro we so if AI run off right now who's to say Humanity didn't run off so how they ain't find us if they was in control of us I'm saying we we can we can find a them [ __ ] bucking with sticks and [ __ ] they they them folk gret them folk they [ __ ] they they what they is now I ever heard little Fishbowl Theory what's that basically like the aliens tray the humanity and they just watch us I believe need that bro fish bowl the like like like you know how you just go and look at the fish tank the fish don't know you outside that [ __ ] they don't know what's going on outside the [ __ ] so it's a theory where they say like aliens created us and they just monitor us they just watch yeah I believe they just be watching us and [ __ ] I feel like it's too many of us for that [ __ ] to be going on what bro listen but but but how many shit's on the game you play the game right now you play a whole universe a whole world this [ __ ] is a real world in the yeah that a making [ __ ] you put [ __ ] on your you D near in that [ __ ] I just did a virtual reality [ __ ] over by um by um how me and Shante and dating went that [ __ ] that [ __ ] is real when you put them [ __ ] on your body you DN there you in there yeah the metaverse all that [ __ ] I don't know I think I think is we even woke now go rabbit B even W like [ __ ] you dreams and [ __ ] feel so real now come back so many times for me every day like I think I'm glitched up but you right but listen I had a dream and woke up and had to realize I had kids and [ __ ] I had a dream that I felt like [ __ ] I had a dream that I felt like I was there for like three months like I was living a whole life and all kind of [ __ ] Apartments trapping and all kind of [ __ ] and I woke up [ __ ] I had to be like where the [ __ ] I'm at I thought this [ __ ] was fake I thought what I was at was fake and the dream was real not real [ __ ] yeah that when they say you tapping in you can't determine well you know black folk about to get piles and [ __ ] super piles and [ __ ] huh Black Folk about to get super piles and [ __ ] y'all a see that what's yeah boy they saying Black Folk DNA DNA about to unlock and all kind of [ __ ] about to happen boy I just want to be a to fly and [ __ ] super speed I do think the Matrix I do think the Matrix [ __ ] was real though I do think we plug in and plug out when we go to sleep and wake up can't tell me bro I know I know I be glitching bro I ain't the only [ __ ] glitching y'all [ __ ] just don't be keeping it real [ __ ] just be trying to act like it don't exist I see everything you know what I'm saying you cuz with that fish sandwich yeah man what we doing scream about right it's all good man we appreciate you pulling up the big facts you know what I'm saying let everybody know where they can tap in with you and what you got coming up man look man y'all can tap in with me on YouTube Facebook Instagram Tik Tok everything all the same JQ health is cerski GQ Health J us s t q e H3 FF man the kid that did man you know what I mean if you think only those who think like that think like that man so yeah there it is check us out. bfa.com subscribe like comment share all that on the bigf network salute salute	it from gotam getting them $20 nights godamn [ __ ] [ __ ] that got a drink you know saying [ __ ] get a [ __ ] [ __ ] like them nigg feel like they got it out the mud but that's still like a yeah [ __ ] up um perspective but I get it you know what I'm saying for what they feel like what they put in every comedian should put in but [ __ ] something it's the luck of the [ __ ] gu what I got this [ __ ] out the mud too I got this [ __ ] with a phone and a goddamn ring light a cheat one at that godamn exactly you know I mean cord breaking off that [ __ ] I had to wire that b back together put some tape around it so it's the same [ __ ] it's just like I said it's people perspective like you know what I mean and me honestly I ain't going to give a [ __ ] what another [ __ ] think about me like [ __ ] I ain't in it to be you know I mean I mean do you feel do you feel sometime like man yeah I need I need to goam go and get in that I need to go on and Mer that part so then let them know I can do it do you ever ever get but	-5	7	8	I get it you know what I'm saying for what they feel like what they put in every comedian should put in but it's the luck of the draw what I got this out the mud too I got this with a phone and a goddamn ring light a cheat one at that godamn exactly you know I mean cord breaking off that thing I had to wire that back together put some tape around it so it's the same thing it's just like I said it's people perspective like you know what I mean and me honestly I ain't going to give a damn what another person think about me like I ain't in it to be you know I mean I mean do you feel do you feel sometime like man yeah I need I need to go and get in that I need to go on and merit that part so then let them know I can do it	do you ever ever get	4,6,8	2,4,3	4	6	8	2	4	3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-Xsjx4VTfU	4,038	q-Xsjx4VTfU	2024-06-27 00:00:00	[Music] this is big fact Network [Music] exclusive live from the culture lab it's time for big facts big bank is here baby Jade is here DJ Scream is here we're welcoming today a comedian that's very funny you see him online give it up for scam lightly on big facts what's up what's up what's up bro you good man yeah man I have made it man so what you say you scam your way on the big F tell tell us how you got on big F I want to hear the whole story yeah so look man I got damn I had hit bank account but goddamn Bank was so cool about we worked some [ __ ] out and then goam you know I mean I owe them so so this a transaction yeah this transaction I just [ __ ] with you no man for real like shout out my manager uh y sh man brother and you know I mean we been had linked up like I came and did skit on y'all um on the podcast what that was like about a year ago yeah so U man just kept working kept grinding and boom back here so is your Origins comedy or what was you doing before that no I was in some whole other [ __ ] some whole other [ __ ] you can talk about or you can't talk about I can't allegedly I say allegedly but now for real I was like uh I was um in the streets just like I ain't G to say everybody else but pretty much you know I demographic I came from the same [ __ ] PIV it and I was always doing I was always like stupid my whole life I can say that I was slow I was slow so I been I've been should have step in comedy but I kind of running from it you know what I mean cuz I Ain I ain't I was I wasn't in no position to be laughed at at the time so when I finally took it serious sat down two months that [ __ ] was out of here at what point did you know you was funny man since I was little I ain't gonna lie like I said I always been a CL clown I always been a [ __ ] roast and always I I I had to fight [ __ ] I roast so good you know what I mean so I always had that aspect to me so I just when I really took it serious like man I'm going to do this comedy [ __ ] like full-fledged nothing else I'm sit down and do it like I said that sh was out of here but I I will say like I I do feel like it chose me instead of me choosing it you know I mean do you think it's important to be able to do like other other types of comedies like AC in the movie Stand Up and all that type of stuff too or or or or is it if you're a one lane type of comedian is that cool in your opinion I I mean I feel like whatever you comfortable with see what I'm saying because a lot of people ain't comfortable with that stage you know I mean I didn't did all of it so like I don't know like for me I didn't get all of it you know I mean but for everybody I like stand up ain't for everybody you know I mean that [ __ ] a whole different monster you know I me why you say that because it's like like it's [ __ ] that you got to know like you got to know time you know I mean you got to know punch lines you got to know how to build a joke up you know you got to sit traps type [ __ ] I mean so it's like an art front for like it's actually some people that probably ain't even funny in real life but they comedians you see what I'm saying cuz they just know the art of telling jokes ver being just naturally funny like you might be naturally funny and get on stage and can't you that's true just how some of these rap [ __ ] be lying boom same way but they sound good exactly that [ __ ] sound good [ __ ] make [ __ ] sound good you go get some money yeah how it go what's the inspiration for your skits uh cuz a lot of it seem like day-to-day just man really just like life and um me like because and I say that because [ __ ] I'm damn near like a psych patient like you know I mean my mama was a paranoid schizophrenic so I come from like my mind be racing so this [ __ ] like therapy for me I just get to get out [ __ ] that's just in my mind all day which is some stupid [ __ ] that I just be thinking about so now I get to relay that on on on camera so let me answer this so just going back to what you said about your mom how was it growing up in a household with somebody that was battling mental illness like that uh definitely a struggle definitely definitely a struggle like uh I want to say my mom probably was your dad there yeah yeah actually my dad raised me like um okay RP my dad um he actually like like when they split my dad took me so I ra with my dad you know what I mean like okay and and he was a old man like my dad was born 1929 he was in World War II real [ __ ] on God everything my dad born in 1929 [ __ ] in World War II so I so so I be having more on God how how old was your daddy when he had you he had me he was like 50 something okay that that add up yeah yeah yeah okay yeah I'm talking about dead that [ __ ] was in World War II so so he put certain mors and [ __ ] in a [ __ ] that I know people ain't even got no more you know what I mean so that's why people be thinking I sound how I do because you know what I mean like I was raised with a Elder you know I mean that [ __ ] was a real Elder you see what I'm saying so with him he was like the um coherent parent of the group you see what I'm saying my mama was wild Young illness type [ __ ] so my daddy was like the one that took us and raised us you see what I'm saying but growing up in the house with that [ __ ] yeah that [ __ ] was a struggle I think that's why I get my comedic comedic side front cuz my mama she Ain have no fut she'll say anything to anybody at any time and like people didn't know she was you know I mean she was like she had the illness or whatever and they thought that she was trying to be funny or like but it was funny though it was funny though I can't C like my MMA was funny as hell though like rip she was funny as hell she Ain what she'll say anything out M like a like a child worse like a adult that know better but still say some [ __ ] like like for real like your homeboy might come over there she might just look at your homeboy and say some [ __ ] like I bet your dick little out of nowhere real [ __ ] where you from originally originally I was born in tusi Alabama I was born in my grandma house 46 yeah I went to school down there oh you did yeah they told you with the locals oh I'm cool with a couple of them shouts the street of Frank Walkin some of them so was your daddy a part of the experiment that they did down there no uh no my dad U he was from Chicago so he had came later but yeah Tusk experiments like a lot of my family members and [ __ ] was affected by that like d yeah did they ever give them reparations for that I think they just now I think they just yeah yeah they did yeah they did yeah they they got reparation for it but it was only like a small group of them left by time they did get to him what you think about this [ __ ] cat you watch that cat we [ __ ] yeah hell what you think about that I think it's a lot of truth to it like I don't know I don't know them folk person I don't want to say too much cuz godamn I ain't trying to get black ball before I get I just talking [ __ ] but now I I I definitely I see that [ __ ] here like you know I mean it's like a you know kind of like a little pecking order gatekeeping type [ __ ] like people gatekeep in all rounds no matter how big small so I think every city got that [ __ ] and then you get to the industry they got their own Gatekeepers so or you feel like they be trying to hold [ __ ] out you think you think that's possible yeah well I ain't going to say it I I think if you weak if you weak it'll stop you like [ __ ] like you know what I mean if you don't say [ __ ] I'm make it anyway know I mean it can scare you off and you just like I seen some with um the Wayne brother he was like somebody said something to him and he start doing stand up for like 10 years so that [ __ ] can really you know what I mean shake you in the wrong way you the whole body if you let it you know I mean but I feel like if you're a [ __ ] that come from nothing I truly feel like what's for you is for you though that's true I don't know it might be harder for you I don't feel like no n can keep you out yeah it might keep you out of they Circle yeah that's what said they situation yeah but this [ __ ] too big man you can make a way man I be [ __ ] excuses I feel but I I I feel the way you feel but I also feel like if the right [ __ ] sprays your name then it's going to be I don't want to say next to Impossible but it can be super [ __ ] overly extremely difficult in mostu but it's it's it still B down to B down to how hard you go look at the [ __ ] that they do spray the [ __ ] going hard about this [ __ ] man yeah but [ __ ] look how I look that's true look look at the [ __ ] who it's a it's a it's a lot of casual to that [ __ ] what I'm saying it's a lot of casualty to that [ __ ] because I feel like you laid down at the end of the day that's true that what I said what I said like if you weak you going to fold you going to fold in on yourself that [ __ ] really be mental like if somebody get in your head and you don't get that [ __ ] out Bo like [ __ ] what's the [ __ ] name B Simon that [ __ ] went what number one FK got in that [ __ ] head he Ain like performing to his best n they ain't getting they ain't getting his head he want it he W it he W it yeah sometimes CU I I don't really know a lot about that [ __ ] I just know R talked about him in the song he said like Ben Timmons I ain't going nowhere or something yeah he had a hell of a agent he had a hell of a agent they giving him money based on what they thought he might be able to do what I'm saying he ain't never do it though but the [ __ ] it paid him based off of his potential exactly but he got man he got gunshot BR the man wouldn't even shoot the basketball man that's in your head he wouldn't even take a shot n he ain't shoo bro cuz he wasn't going to make it man he didn't shoot it he could he could he didn't even drive I'm just saying if okay let's take Ben Simmons maybe I'm being in a homer and let's take Ant-Man all right Antman shoot that's what I was saying last night what I said what I said if you weak I'm saying like he mentally KN up it's you right I see what you say you say take the shot forget that like an is from the west side that dog I know to do matter [ __ ] lay down everywhere it's a [ __ ] laying down on every side of town same how you name one [ __ ] that stood up I bet we can a fire [ __ ] that done laid down laid down [ __ ] [ __ ] up Z they ain't do nothing to Zion he did it to himself I mean who Z the big dude who be smashing the porn or whatever Zion Williamson the boy can jump though like boy can jump yeah you getting paid to jump jumping don't win championships and games but it's early too though early super early he got he got a minute man he still got he got time to like when did he get signed once you he been in the league six years that ain't ear I been in about six years yeah I'm thinking like three n he been playing hurt two of them oh yeah that's what it is that's that's what it is that's is my opinion when when it comes to like the athlete [ __ ] some people just ain't got it but that's what I'm saying like people I think a lot of people put emphasis on it like that [ __ ] just everywhere that [ __ ] ain't that [ __ ] real rare but if but if you're not it and then on top of that you don't have self-esteem then like you're going you're going to flop every time you going to f in on yourself like you going to be your worst enemy you going to godamn you're going to implode facts hey what what a character scam come from man this [ __ ] so crazy so the the interview that future did with Kevin Sam I watched that interview I like well that [ __ ] don't give a [ __ ] about [ __ ] just just his demeanor how he was just like yeah I me a [ __ ] by like I like but this [ __ ] just so nonchalant so I was like damn what if the scammer was like that like [ __ ] just pull all kind of moves don't give a [ __ ] about the consequences so and it's crazy I watched I I the interview was on TV and I just like hey I want to shoot a skit by the Atlanta scammer and then in like 10 minutes I just he like he need a name I was like [ __ ] scam like Le oh like scam likely I'm like no not likely but like Le like l e e so I just ran with that [ __ ] and that [ __ ] just stuck so hard that people like people don't even call me by my name they just call me scam introdu you fact so I like [ __ ] scam so I just ran with it man and that [ __ ] just naturally like took off because I feel like you know that's what we living in anyway what you think about SC game I mean [ __ ] is though you go with your move like you had if it made sense yeah yeah [ __ ] me too if it made sense like I feel like I did everything it is to do in the streets like everything like a [ __ ] that played all positions in that [ __ ] I had been a fake ass little pimp before godamn s everything it is I did everything so [ __ ] why not riding around that man we was making no money man but that [ __ ] him [ __ ] the hard [ __ ] listen [ __ ] listen sh but then the crazy thing is just talking to them folk like when you talk like real PE and [ __ ] they be like you got to coach the [ __ ] talk I ain't got the patience to keep talking to no [ __ ] about some [ __ ] just keep on telling you some [ __ ] that you should know [ __ ] that I go get me some drugs or something baby this [ __ ] slow oh when with that turning point though huh like the Turn Point like man I'm just feel cuz you always legit now right yo for sure why he looking around I won't be on big face for real no I am though we in the turtle what it was though like you know [ __ ] I ain't going to lie but you know the pandemic had [ __ ] boom [ __ ] was eating good like you know I mean so I had enough money to where I was like damn I can kind of ease up off this you know I mean this [ __ ] cuz at first like I said I I never wanted to do comedy because of that like I mean I was dealing with [ __ ] in the street I ain't really want no [ __ ] to feel like I was no funny [ __ ] you know what I mean when you dealing with certain amount of money so once I once I felt like I made enough money then I was like [ __ ] I can kind of start doing comedy like you know doing my skits and [ __ ] so like I said I had sat down like um my turning my main turning point though was and this is trueu I had went to Miami for new years and [ __ ] so I had on took a I thought was edible so I ate a edible but I don't know what for issue was like it it had to be like strs or something yeah cuz boy I had the worst trip of my life [ __ ] like I'm I'm I'm zooed you know you you know when you get too high you think you about to die and [ __ ] that's what I was on I'm like well I'm I'm G I'm out of here so so I walk to the gas station to get some milk drunk drunk drunk a gallon of milk that man that [ __ ] only wors when you swallow dope no no that milk workk any natural high and that milk work that sh why the [ __ ] y'all ain't G me milk that day I was TR to die want to see it you milk what you talking about let no El kill you bro you just tripping but that how that [ __ ] had me that [ __ ] do that [ __ ] take you to a psychedelic listen boy that [ __ ] had listen I swear to God on everything I got back to the room after drinking the milk [ __ ] I lay on the bed I'm like I'm going to die I just Clos my eyes I'm in the universe I'm just in the universe like but I can see my body on the bed with my ey closed I owe my eyes I'm back in the room close my eyes I'm in the universe so I start seeing myself on stage with a microphone like that was astro Projection what when you had that where you supposed to be at though that's what I was saying like but I think what it is though I think it's it's like a unified Feld and you see all the possibilities that you can be right so that was me in the future looking back at me like see what I'm saying even with Dreams yeah exactly like [ __ ] was telling me come on like do what we on so I'm like man I'm going to do this [ __ ] then I got back to Atlanta boy my cousin was standing with him but [ __ ] tow tow a hole in my head thing gone you yeah why part me empty [ __ ] gone all [ __ ] gone you know I mean see make sense yeah I see see yeah we CH we chopped up and [ __ ] y chopped it up yeah I mean you was just like no regular chop up like you know I mean but you know I mean like like what what the excuse was why he broke in your [ __ ] no I say he was standing [ __ ] that [ __ ] a break in that [ __ ] lit there I'm saying where the excuse was taking out with the [ __ ] uh I don't even remember so about like he probably felt like I owed him or some [ __ ] yeah but it probably wasn't that you know what I mean but like he was staying with you and you owed him it be like that sometime the [ __ ] kind of [ __ ] but but you just know like you know I mean like [ __ ] was just getting out the fed you know [ __ ] PTSD like you know what I mean home to steep so you know what I mean home you doing stand up yeah yeah I didn't I didn't did stand up I did step away from it though cuz like I said it's it's so much politics and that [ __ ] and that [ __ ] ain't paying nothing they think it ain't paying nothing I got a little something for you want do [ __ ] show yeah we September I when is it April May damn that's May May 4th Saturday May 4 okay you know I got I gota get back on stage that [ __ ] A that [ __ ] ain't just like no just you know I mean that [ __ ] real real you got to get back up St you just got to get in your bag right yeah yeah but but it's like like I said like it's about time so like that's why you do it every night so you can got damn sharpen your your skills no we had um we had my man on here man don't you you got to get you gotta got damn we just had Henry up here right oh yeah yeah Henry my boy yeah Henry said the same [ __ ] like you got to exercise [ __ ] going and 100 50 people rooms 25 people in the room you still gota go work your material even if you comeing in [ __ ] working on us yeah for real people you got to work that material bro if a n GNA do this [ __ ] n gota do it all the way no but see that's what I was saying like so I noticed like if you try to do that and the content one of them going to suffer see what I'm saying so why you say that because like the amount of time that you got to take like like [ __ ] what's her name did it country Wayne did it but he he I'm saying like them [ __ ] beat but but what I'm saying like once they did one of them surer I ain't going to say like the quality of the content serer but the amount that you putting out going to go down you got to balance it at that point you got to balance it yeah I know it but I'm saying like far as like especially like now because [ __ ] gate you see what I'm saying so it's still like I ain't like [ __ ] don't like internet comedians for real that I to say really respect yeah exactly like you get chance pause edit you get a chance do all that [ __ ] want that [ __ ] on the spot but but it's the thing though it's like she like they it's kind of like the old mindset like how [ __ ] was Pass Out CD ain't no more CD so [ __ ] don't know how to transition you see what I'm saying so it's kind of like that like they be want you to just only do stand up rooms and [ __ ] but it's like I got the internet why would I go touch a whole another see what I'm saying like you can reach way more still though them [ __ ] but [ __ ] Ain't Going [ __ ] [ __ ] don't really internet comedian oh but iig who like being the trench you know what I'm saying the people do like I love it yeah but I'm saying like comedians who gotdamn know where they got it from gotam getting them $20 nights godamn [ __ ] [ __ ] that got a drink you know saying [ __ ] get a [ __ ] [ __ ] like them nigg feel like they got it out the mud but that's still like a yeah [ __ ] up um perspective but I get it you know what I'm saying for what they feel like what they put in every comedian should put in but [ __ ] something it's the luck of the [ __ ] gu what I got this [ __ ] out the mud too I got this [ __ ] with a phone and a goddamn ring light a cheat one at that godamn exactly you know I mean cord breaking off that [ __ ] I had to wire that b back together put some tape around it so it's the same [ __ ] it's just like I said it's people perspective like you know what I mean and me honestly I ain't going to give a [ __ ] what another [ __ ] think about me like [ __ ] I ain't in it to be you know I mean I mean do you feel do you feel sometime like man yeah I need I need to goam go and get in that I need to go on and Mer that part so then let them know I can do it do you ever ever get but I did I ain't going to lie I did you see what I'm saying like I performed at a you know what I mean like a at a high stage what you know I mean [ __ ] some big dogs from the city like boy you got it know I mean it just like I said that [ __ ] wasn't making no sense for me and it's taking away from some [ __ ] that do make money so what I'm saying like I'm making money on Instagram and Facebook and [ __ ] like that so I'm making way more money than I would be trying to do taking a risk anything $200 [ __ ] you got to get into it with anything n that [ __ ] your security none of that [ __ ] yeah that [ __ ] A you been spank the [ __ ] on camera for what hell cuz the nigg [ __ ] G they move yeah cuz I ain't going to think I'm black out a whole another side be like oh n that [ __ ] don't even want that turn the big to workout what it name big Q got turn the big Q onig ass yeah I don't even want to play n but you get what I'm saying though yeah that [ __ ] that that don't make sense to be cuz I went gotam I would just say if I I want to be a rapper right there I would do my [ __ ] online I wouldn't be at no open mics that [ __ ] dangerous yeah what I'm saying like [ __ ] like like you not going to gain no fans from that [ __ ] like I had a homeboy yes you are no you yes you are fans from what okay from from like open m stand up talk open mik rapping or you talking about stand up comedian stand up comedian I'm saying you make no money off no you might not make no money off of it but you like people will put your name with your face and it'll like help increase your family I agree that but well you got to get on the internet the internet no the internet is definitely over it but I'm saying touching the people is is going to make a difference also but most of the people outside [ __ ] but then what I say though like other crew y'all rapping my bad J y'all rapping other crew other open mic and you f then we got to get into it cuz you f yeah how this [ __ ] go comedian comedian okay we on the same show together [ __ ] mad at me cuz I just was funny as hell y that'll get you [ __ ] up real talk like cuz then they ain't going to want to put you on their show you see what I'm saying because every like I feel like most comedians everybody want to feel like the funnyest [ __ ] in the room just like okay a artist right let's say if two artists in the room and one get to playing his music the other [ __ ] going to get be ready for him to cut him music off so he can play his [ __ ] like come on man r that [ __ ] up so I can play my [ __ ] my [ __ ] F like your [ __ ] cool but my [ __ ] so it's the same thing you know mean it's the same [ __ ] and doing open mics [ __ ] steal your jokes I had a [ __ ] steal my whole [ __ ] and do the [ __ ] the next day because I was like I ain't know you see what I'm saying so they we was talking about that yeah so they'll tell you like don't do open mics and comedy cuz writers and [ __ ] be in the crowd to Ste [ __ ] jokes remix so it's a conspiracy yeah GNA remix your [ __ ] yeah like he ain't going nowh with that he funny I see what he Tred to do I'm show how to do it like your delivery or something might be off what I'm saying you how to do you a real funny ass [ __ ] get your [ __ ] too fast I know how to do it I know how to perform the joke better than and then boom got some of they [ __ ] with your [ __ ] that [ __ ] is that [ __ ] out of here TV so it just this [ __ ] just like I said sh just like a rap game you had to skit one time about like dating in Atlanta and [ __ ] what's your like what's your take on dating in Atlanta man have fun God damn don't take nothing serious like this [ __ ] ain't serious out here for real what you mean I feel like this [ __ ] a big ass high school for real I mean like Atlanta man I I would me personally I wouldn't like for love and no [ __ ] out here like for real like I feel like if you ain't already got it like new generation New Age day this [ __ ] over with like if you ain't already got love and marriage and wife and all that [ __ ] over with in Atlanta as of today it's a rap what you saying in a certain age group or just period or just period because everybody mind mind frames have change you see what I'm saying everybody mind is right now she it's okay to hurt whoever is long as is you happy like everybody feel like everything Justified as long as I'm looking out for me and I'm happy then she it's whatever it's cold real you saying no no consideration for nobody nobody if you look at everything everybody talking about online and all the toxicity [ __ ] everybody really just out for self and it's okay like like everybody promoe it's okay to be for yourself like no team ball no nothing I ain't going to lie I I help a lot of people though but I I I I've been on that lately like [ __ ] that I got to figure me out cuz that's the way the world live bro yeah but that's what I'm saying saying that the way the world live like whoever with me like this [ __ ] we doing yeah yeah this me figuring me out I can't worry about goddamn going play goddamn tennis yeah you know what I'm saying cuz my my buddy want to play tennis all day ain't no money in tennis bro for me I need to be right here doing this [ __ ] so I got to do what serve me I don't I don't knock that so that's why that's why I'm saying like the D SC sh like that like [ __ ] ain't nobody really going to stick it out with no [ __ ] till it's too late you see what I'm saying like that's how I feel anyway from my experience and your ass ain't lit ain't got nothing for you so you saying like the ho going anyway going gone they gone get the elevator with that SM that B that b he don't know what you say oh yeah really that that Clyde Christian but you know what I mean CDE be G out of here what's that come on what floor you stay on oh seven whole time [ __ ] paying for the [ __ ] all kind of [ __ ] tricky you don't think it's a circle though I think you don't think it's the circle like it's like that circle of people he right see see see you you speaking from where you at he's saying like outside the circle is different though but I but but this the thing I say with men it might be you see what I'm saying like for the for the men that's outside that Circle they don't know what we talking about see what I'm saying they don't but all the women know because they all going to get brought into that Circle see what I'm saying all women been out somewhere and a [ __ ] didn't caught they ey [ __ ] with some money and they gone they gone cuz Atlanta like Atlanta like people it's a wom that it's a wom that be it's a women that be up in Chastain Park at some [ __ ] Neil Soul jazz [ __ ] that be out the way yeah you talking about a different Circle CC you talking about the hook you talking about the Hooka Circle no uh I'm talking about all walk the [ __ ] is the hookah Circle CC the hookah lounges and [ __ ] n I'm talking about all no but I mean it's it's people like it's people that go to the hookah lounges the hookah Circle or whatever they got their own money that's not giv a Fu about what another [ __ ] got but it's not that it's not also just about money see that's what like I ain't saying like what it is SC it's just that stuff on like it's just that stuff like you know certain people got that stuff right so what I'm saying is like and the reason why I say that the reason why I say that because I I watched like when I was a young [ __ ] my partner this [ __ ] had everything this [ __ ] uh drop head godamn benty truck all this [ __ ] I done watch every type of woman from every type of Walk of Life come in the [ __ ] spot and he tell them folks straight up the [ __ ] make Ann hey look you ain't going to suck like at the end of night you can get up and get the [ __ ] out and I Ain never see not one woman get up and leave like got me [ __ ] up and I seen the [ __ ] with doctors lawyers them them so-called Neo Soul [ __ ] I ain't never seen not one of them get up and say no [ __ ] up never by them folks oh now you put yourself in that position now what he saying is listen it's hoes everywhere yeah I'm talk about scientist nurse doctor D judges whatever hoes women going to be women some of them but what he's saying is he's saying the on they don't even allow theyel to pull up on bro that's what I'm saying cuz we talk it don't matter what walk a life it's still a select few women she can be outside and still won't pull up on you I know some [ __ ] who ain't going I know a lot of them going but some of them ain't going but see that's a lot of them that ain't going some of them ain't going I'mma keep it 100 he take that right [ __ ] but some of still but okay what what you said take cuz we all know son like damn ain't nobody like everybody compar like but you ain't nobody [ __ ] who we know [ __ ] nobody but like you said you said take that right [ __ ] right now knowing how competitive Atlanta is you don't think that [ __ ] somewh in the crowd know he in the crowd but the thing about it is she know that but it like I a listen listen I'm going to V with some of them CU I know some of them bro just because and that's then the one to elevate too yes like we like it's it's like going every circle of [ __ ] all my budy is sniper diapers yeah so we going to know who done smashed her like what about her like [ __ ] send your picture around yeah that what [ __ ] do like who this is if I DM you a girl you know what that mean who this is yeah oh that oh that you send that [ __ ] around to the [ __ ] who already who making them announcements tell them to all them [ __ ] who make them announcements they going to come back and be like I don't know her I don't know her I don't know her I don't know her she good she might be that over there in the other crowd now with what you saying go ahead but but see that's what I'm saying I'm not saying like all cuz it's impossible to say all of course of course it's a couple most yeah of course it's a couple Butterfly by The hornest Nest but [ __ ] [ __ ] I ain't going to stand by and let the [ __ ] sting me I'm getting the [ __ ] on [ __ ] them butterflies you see what I'm saying so that's all I'm saying like yeah [ __ ] can't it's hard to deci what I said on Instagram standing beside them it's hard to deci which one is which so and I like man and this thing I think think Atlanta is kind of like this [ __ ] [ __ ] you up this [ __ ] [ __ ] you up cuz it's just like the Lifey like man ain't no I ain't really seen no place like Atlanta like this [ __ ] really is the mecca of like Black Culture to me you know what I mean like I feel like [ __ ] Atlanta is like Legend like even if you just staying in Atlanta right now this [ __ ] Legend like this a legend this a legendary City so the [ __ ] that go on here it go on everywhere like that you know what I mean so it's just the the level of competition and you got you you got to be a dog to be out this [ __ ] for real yeah yeah you got to be you got to have some real dog in you for real and most and most people ain't got I ain't going to say most [ __ ] most about people that's outside but now I'm talking about even the [ __ ] working 9 to5 that don't even go nowhere and [ __ ] they can't even keep up like but you know that [ __ ] ain't but a job and and paying bill you G have to do some you GNA have to do something something he ain't gonna be able to just work come home pay bills and be straight unless your ass stay somewhere in caning or something but down here oh no we close to the city but your ass through so you think you ever lock in like on some relationship [ __ ] man I have goddamn go somewhere else not in that like how I used to be seen so much you Tain yeah there's always exception that can't I believe exceptions to the rule I don't know bro I didn't had a [ __ ] in the bed we finished and it be like you just made me commit adultery I'm like what wait what I didn't know you was married damn yeah that a know what I'm saying like a boy say that to everybody so that [ __ ] hit different like damn B that [ __ ] crazy it could be just bad in small towns though they just more sneaky and quiet going I trust that because I know Atlanta exists see what I'm saying so you ain't being brought to Atlanta and tested then you don't know see what I'm saying like she might just be like that she ain't got the opportunity see you ain't got no opportunity to be no hope everybody your daddy the preacher everybody know you in town so you Ain had no opportunity to be no hope bring her to Atlanta unleash her and then she got what she TV see see sh you see on TV right there like right there magic and [ __ ] will try you like nigg be like come here [ __ ] [ __ ] who you would never thought tell you come here tell you come here come here it going to [ __ ] you up it's going to blow your mind man I didn't seen that [ __ ] but that [ __ ] and I tell [ __ ] like man don't bring your girl up here dog don't bring your girl over here man if you if you coming from my of town you come man leave don't bring your old lady man try to move up it with her but none of that [ __ ] dead she just can't do this no more none of they can't do this no more it's too hard I think you should you think bring your girl to Atlanta you going to lock all the way in you need to know what you locking in with yeah they do it us us a woman a woman a woman will bring you around all her badass friends to see what you on yeah they do that [ __ ] to us yeah yeah yeah yeah I go yeah so expose her take her to uh you break around your don't take a center with a friends y'all go have fun n but look you take around your R po but get the poping all that sh man sh going to be in the air like this here over with what facts like they'll come back cuz a lot like I don't really know him like that anyway tell I don't really know I met him for real what we've been together two years it ain't that serious we do that take your serious like like I telling about my buddy right P who had had the bag listen man like you might be [ __ ] that really like me they might think I'm handsome but they not coming home with me but at the end of the night like if if shl say hey what's up they over with yeah I had to respect it I had like okay [ __ ] it I got to get on my grind like I ain't mad that is how the game is right now oh you got the [ __ ] you you got the [ __ ] over there with the looks his buddy got there went here he got bag put him in the pot up for you I had like I had like a oldale rain roll buty got a new bit truck baby go go with him I'm go go go with him go go [ __ ] I see you going I see you going I see you going and I ain't mad cuz I understand the game gu what I'mma have my turn and when I have my turn I don't want none of the old ho that already been [ __ ] up [ __ ] they gonna be all of them no but it's some new [ __ ] coming out the [ __ ] every day oh man it's some [ __ ] coming out the [ __ ] every day brand new don't even know what's out here yeah Michael cor Pur she Michel Michael cor Bel she cool I want to hold bottles I see they they uhuh they already know I already know they know what to buy yeah they know how person ah n i buy my cor coach i d by some Reb classes what you oh man Dam n that [ __ ] that [ __ ] real man sad reality it's Savage out here man like the wor listen man then the raapers don't [ __ ] [ __ ] man if you [ __ ] really bad man it's old we so it's really bad for real like really bad oh it's over with she might have some morals man n this [ __ ] like draing them and DM your girl just a space like put space in send it blank bubble you know what that mean this in the location [ __ ] man [ __ ] send your [ __ ] that big ass air Drake plane facts don't bring nothing they going to pick you up wherever you was standing there stand right there leave everything they going to pick you up to pick you up don't move they to pick you up in some [ __ ] take you to the helicopter helicopter to edate fly your ass to somewhere you never seen before bro you gone that would worth that whole relationship B care man this [ __ ] crazy bro was the [ __ ] true about how how the [ __ ] um how Drake had this sing out there with with her husband he sent the [ __ ] home man it was a story like it was a singer that he was like trying to I guess sign or some [ __ ] he flew her in her husband out and then like for a week or some [ __ ] and then like the last couple days sent the husband home man he [ __ ] cold I just when you about I just said my [ __ ] Joel Silver right shout out was movie producer Big Boy producer he told me a story one time I'm tell B [ __ ] it he said he said his wife when he first seen his wife she was married he told her I'mma marry you but him her and him her and her husband work for him he sent this [ __ ] on a movie for six months in a whole another state and kept the [ __ ] with him and bar I'm telling you bro well not the [ __ ] his wife but I'm just saying it's just like bro it's over with it's over with some [ __ ] what they want they can get if [ __ ] up to say that but did you see what I'm saying cuz [ __ ] put in the full work you better not be slipping a inch like a inch some you better have a slip of an inch and to see if he I'm telling you bro this [ __ ] [ __ ] up and women are cold some women I'm not I'm not um generalized I'm just saying some women are cold BR it'll be like they never knew you yeah for real [ __ ] act like she never even knew your name like you don't exist like how many times you see women do that like men can't really do that like [ __ ] with you I [ __ ] with you no matter what I'm always [ __ ] with this [ __ ] I [ __ ] with her how [ __ ] is [ __ ] be invested yeah [ __ ] be like I [ __ ] with women when they boy this [ __ ] I don't know him and be de serious like I don't know him they don't convince theirself that they don't know you oh man especially especially if it's a [ __ ] around that got some [ __ ] going on but them f w look your way boy but I feel like I feel like for a female to act like she doesn't know a [ __ ] that she wants loved it had to be something that happened but look listen I feel always going to be done happen [ __ ] going to be [ __ ] wom always got a chance to justify their action because something happened we in this [ __ ] or we in this [ __ ] but what's crazy no but what I'm saying is like Mo nine times out of 10 if if a [ __ ] is really in love with a [ __ ] like for real for real like they going to get into it they going to fall out she going to say [ __ ] him a million times but if she really loves this [ __ ] she's G to love this [ __ ] forever but if it's some [ __ ] that like some unfor a lot of women I've been hearing this [ __ ] lately a lot of women be kicking at I can learn the love a [ __ ] and they never be unlearned truly till you see some [ __ ] you really love you thought you was in love that's what most the [ __ ] most the women do they be delusional some some way like they like I heard three women say that like recently I thought I was going to learn to love him it's conveyance versus love too though I think some women men probably too whatever get convenience [ __ ] up with love yeah they they enter into the relationship with potential and they enter the relationship with uh what it could be not what it is like I can't deal with you if it ain't what it is right then like it have to be that I can't potentially feel like that and saying that I love you and knowing you trying to we trying to fall in love we trying to do hell no I can't potentially I can't fake that but if you but okay so let me ask you this then if you don't to some degree fall in love with potential then that's D how how does your how does your love get tested in order for you to be able to know whether or not you can grow with this person that's what I'm saying so it ain't it listen on one thing about it hold up scam one thing about it when a [ __ ] your person you know what it is cuzz you can't it's just something about you know when you love a person you know when you want to love a person you know when I like her a lot but you know if a [ __ ] jump out the bush with a stick you ain't F to try to tote this [ __ ] like I'mma tote my [ __ ] like man hey I'm jump in front you don't think that's that's that's the test would you die [ __ ] jump out shooter stick is you going is you going to try to c shei a [ __ ] around run but but this disconnect I had real [ __ ] though that the truth but this a disconnect though this disconnect because she's thinking like a woman that's how women like women date potential a [ __ ] going to like what he see instantly like if I like you I [ __ ] like you like if a [ __ ] say Hey you my girl we already the God damn but but if but if you like me just based off of what you see then no he saying not see you observing her not the look fact the outer when I see you I see you I don't see what you look like on the outside that's why I tell my wife hey don't ask me unbiased whatever you do going I'm going like it don't ask me if I like it don't ask me if nothing I like you so I don't give a [ __ ] what it is that [ __ ] look good you know what I'm saying so that's just what it is so I can't don't ask me on bias so we don't see potential and [ __ ] yeah we see you you yeah like if I like how you make me feel I feel that if a [ __ ] say if a [ __ ] commit like cuz I don't know like it's hard as [ __ ] for me to say I want to commit cuz if feels like I'm giving up some [ __ ] like so I feel like no no man truly wants to commit but if he find a woman that he feel like man shout shout it shout it worth of everything shout it it like then of course he's going to commit but it's not no easy [ __ ] that [ __ ] just want to do like [ __ ] Ain't just running out here to commit you see what I'm saying like [ __ ] don't want to commit H understand but a [ __ ] will if you find something that you feel like worth like I ain't going to find nothing else like sh like she one of a lifetime I ain't going to find nothing else like her so we ain't looking at her potential cuz sh you could have a a a [ __ ] pot piss in a want throw out of her [ __ ] going godamn hop down on a woman but a woman ain't just going to [ __ ] with no broke straight broke ass no car no house no n [ __ ] she's off the bat they ain't going to do that but gu what man that [ __ ] rare that [ __ ] better have a foot long a foot long goddamn she going to have something that she want he ain't going to just be it going to be something going to be something now that's what I'm saying because a lot of like well not a lot but some some some men are able to and I've seen this happen a million times before some men are able to hide or like finesse the fact that they lack some of the most essential things and then by the time by the time you understand that you've been been Boozled you know what I'm saying like it's too late you already got for you think that [ __ ] been spending the night that [ __ ] really be got there sleeping but see that but but listen one by one but see putting a pair of shoes every day but but this my thing right see women cuz people agree that like women are smarter than men right nah n I'm saying like book smart like right I'm just saying like educational wise I feel like women got more intuition than men I feel like women are more emotionally int I'mma tell you let me say this right quick before I say this I'mma tell you what men do bro and I'm go and give it up [ __ ] hate when they girl be right bro you that [ __ ] that's the only thing piss us off what pissed me off is a [ __ ] can make up something in their head and be right like how you guess that you gu right so wom got superp power now like that why I be trying to tell her like you right about a lot of that [ __ ] but some of that [ __ ] you making up so I ain't going to let you know when you're making it up I ain't going to let you know when you're right you know what I'm saying but you be right though this [ __ ] be like God but this my thing right women know what they be talking about but this my thing right what I'm saying if women are smarter than men so to speak and they believe this right you believe women smarter men I mean yeah okay so then how you get manipulated how you getting tricked then how you don't know a [ __ ] got two pair of jeans how you how you don't know yeah how you don't know that how you don't know a [ __ ] got two pair of jeans I feel like I feel like some women want to believe in the best of a [ __ ] that a [ __ ] might have another pair of jeans somewhere you know what I'm saying like but you only seeing two see I'm saying that what I'm saying like men are more L but but but the women the woman might think that the [ __ ] might not want to expose his hand right away so the two pair is what he's showing to test the water to see if it makes sense to expose the third pair see that's delusion cuz guess what you ain't never been around no rich [ __ ] that just wear two pair of jeans the [ __ ] that really got it they coming out with all this [ __ ] on especially if they like you and they trying to get you they ain't hiding nothing they putting everything on the table CU they trying to get you so a [ __ ] only let me test her with these two jeans come on you know this niggaer ain't got nothing you know it but in your mind you want to believe like I'm making get a good decision even though you know it's some [ __ ] like this [ __ ] ain't got nothing but in your mind you want to make yourself believe that he tricked me he got me he got over on me cuz you know women know man just like you said just like Bank said women got intuition you can't tell that this [ __ ] ain't got nothing yo you ain't know your baby daddy was broke before you had babies with him then you a had one with him you had another one with him yeah that [ __ ] be kind of hard like how can you say you got trick it's just hard to say you got yeah that [ __ ] when women turn into repeat offenders excuse that's excuse you know you know that's what you attract you know what I'm saying and and and and and and and no I just feel like women do make up a lot of [ __ ] in their head but how do you feel about when people say that you like what you like exactly so except that's what you like yeah and stop trying to change [ __ ] [ __ ] you don't like cuz listen bro I'm tell you bro I know like if I was to try to be anybody else but me I probably get a divorce like I'm me but I'm I mean I'm different but I'm me if that make sense what I'm saying like I'm totally different but I'm me like the mors and and [ __ ] that just boy don't do that don't say that and all that that's that's centic you get what I'm saying but I'm me so just imagine if I tried to be somebody else I don't think I would I don't think I don't think she'll go for it even though what me gets on [ __ ] nerd but I try to be something else it ain't going to work out how you a like that okay so let me ask y this then how do y'all feel about it when people say that let's just say say your significant person other person or whatever cheats on you and people say that it doesn't make sense to leave because all you g to do is hook up with another cheater because everybody I agree has their you know their I agree for women I don't know about yeah I agree for women though and I'm say I know that [ __ ] going to sound sexies or whatever they call it but I thought you about to say sexy yeah it ain't it ain't enough [ __ ] fact so you get your [ __ ] up to go find another [ __ ] who just got just got left by another female who he cheated on like it's just a Revol Circle it's just a rev it depend on what you want like cuz all men don't cheat the guys I'm just keeping it real but the guys that y'all yeah don't want be want y'all don't want them guys like I hear so many women be like he boring he didn't he didn't God sent this man fool yeah right but you looking at goddamn be over here wasting time with me you yeah you looking at scam them you know what saying who ain't boy a going ain't going ain't going a lot of [ __ ] ain't going they already know you all the man this this [ __ ] so [ __ ] up cuz most of Mo like most of the time the [ __ ] that's good good the dudes that's good dude women look at them as weird y cornball mhm so like so this nigga's a real man gentle he's a man he's a man you w look God bwood breath B you smokeing bwood cut out you want to hear you hear girl how you don't want to hear that that sound cuz cuz you addicted to the [ __ ] yeah for real and that you ain't never seen that you know your mama going to be like what she doing like y y y y your people goingon to disapprove of that that [ __ ] [ __ ] up bro where you get him from yeah H Square boy H Square Bo sh but lame here but he the one for you and and you right BR be some good ass men and it's funny cuz a lot of folk think and I I had to explain that to cuz you know whenever I do what's name podcast them folk think that [ __ ] real so it be like I be getting hate mail and I just be like damn like this sh a joke yeah you be doing like the yeah that [ __ ] hard though finess finess yeah so it be a joke but I be saying some real [ __ ] so it catch like and that's all this [ __ ] really is just getting emotional response from people you see what I'm saying and boy them folk be going crazy on this [ __ ] like and I'm just saying like man for the most part it's a lot of good [ __ ] out there it just they don't want them [ __ ] they don't like and crazy because they don't even see them [ __ ] like if you if you try to explain like a good [ __ ] they don't even them [ __ ] invisible they only talk about the [ __ ] that they like which is a small percent you see what I'm saying like every [ __ ] ain't like that but the [ __ ] that you probably going to want he like that you see what I'm saying okay I say this right I say this right a woman want a [ __ ] well not all women women want to pull up with a [ __ ] that other [ __ ] respect and and all the [ __ ] that's what it is bro and all the [ __ ] want yeah that's what I'm saying they want to pull yeah pull up with a niggga that ever that the [ __ ] respect and the [ __ ] want that's other than that man not a [ __ ] that's like okay that that that want them [ __ ] who the [ __ ] who like cuz she want to feel a slight sense of of that yeah yeah that you might can yeah like cuz if I feel like I'm the only one want you then no no thrill this ain't man no thrill I feel like they want a [ __ ] they want a niggga to get all the hoes but then they want to get the [ __ ] and make the niggaer not get no more ho damn like I want you to be able to get all the hoes but I don't want I be able to stop you from getting all the hoes to say that I was the one yeah when have you seen that done before that why I keep trying to add the the lates like you seen you you seen your whoever your cousin get cheated on your sister everybody in the circle every no not get cheated on your brother is a cheater your uncle your daddy your cousin your nephew you done help him he ain't here girl he was here all night you done help people cheat what makes you think you f to get the [ __ ] that don't if he D type of [ __ ] I'm not saying all men cheat I'm saying like certain type of [ __ ] is just outside and them [ __ ] it too many I ain't going lie bro I say I think all men do cheat I think you only as faithful as your options I feel like nigg if a [ __ ] ain't capable of cheat then he ain't and most [ __ ] is broke and working for that 30 hours of God damn 24 hours a day they can't cheat [ __ ] depend what your focus is man I'm like I know [ __ ] is [ __ ] in the factory that what I'm saying work them nigg who got there got time to to talk talk they work B out that [ __ ] the [ __ ] nigg super cheating them R [ __ ] they s right there on the they they did a study and show like the the Lesser [ __ ] make the more likely he is to be faithful versus the more money a [ __ ] make the more he you know that though come on but that's what I'm saying so I'm saying like any like what I say to women is like what [ __ ] don't want to be a king like if if if you walk up to a man on the street like but some that [ __ ] don't make some [ __ ] King though other [ __ ] make some I know but I'm just saying like I the reason why I use the term King is because like okay [ __ ] what king had one Queen and no conine just for real like what king just had one wife one and he just was n that [ __ ] [ __ ] everything boy it was a [ __ ] in China boy this [ __ ] if you want to work next to the emperor you had to chop your dick off cuz he had so many hoes you had to chop your dick off to work in the castle in the padet cuz he ain't want you to godamn cuz you know she I know you ain't [ __ ] exactly but he a [ __ ] na here he going to [ __ ] nothing in here cuz guess why [ __ ] I cuz my my my son going to be a Heir so you can't like it ain't no practic test and all DNA test and [ __ ] so you leave your dick at the door come work in the [ __ ] so just think like all I'm saying is like you walk up to any average man and be like hey you you want to be king king of Atlanta for the day what [ __ ] going be like nah like hell yeah I want to cuz Men We value that [ __ ] we value power and Prestige and status and [ __ ] like that ambition you see I'm saying so you saying you saying basically like Ain a [ __ ] if a [ __ ] in a [ __ ] in the right situation to go yeah yeah give a [ __ ] 100 Mil boy what that [ __ ] dick GNA fall off F 100 million and everybody know it everybody know you got 100 milon women know you got 100 million my debate my only debate you got it might and it might be a lot more rare that just mean don't no loyalty exists nowhere for nobody but that philosophy I'm just saying with that philosophy then n but but but but but I got I got I gotta disagree on that because loyalty ain't to me loyalty ain't defined by sex yeah what you talking about to say I'm say he said he just saying get some [ __ ] I ain't saying like leave my wife [ __ ] oh you saying like that I'm saying you some [ __ ] I'm going to play I'm to I'm not I'm not no advocate for Cheetos or none of that but I'm saying is I get what he's saying yeah for real am I Tripp it what I'm saying he's saying like you never know what position you get in and where you start to see yourself at when you start when other people start to see you different but I can't I get what you saying no I I hear what he saying I'm just saying that you that's really it for real so okay so let me let me rephrase then so money will change you but do y'all think loyalty do you think a person if a person cheat on you they're disloyal to you if if y'all if y ain't got the agreement don't cheat H if the agreement if if if if if if if if you cheated on your dude right do you feel like you disloyal to him keep it real yeah I do it depends on how you unless unless unless unless she has an understanding with him that you can cheat n it ain't no understanding with that type of [ __ ] like if I'm with you no it's an understand some people have open relationship with you or whatever then like I'm with you if we've agreed to be together or if we've agreed to do this [ __ ] or however the [ __ ] whatever like say for instance um what if you done did everything else to do everything you took care you got them you there for them they sick they locked up anything you there right but you [ __ ] are you disloyal or unfaith both both unless some some one says you I I know that you're cheating and I don't give look the word see I look that up that's a good I'm telling you look up the word loyalty Loy look at the word loyalty and look up unfaith I think we did this one time on on another podcast on on big facts but are you disloyal or Unfaithful both Unfaithful both that's cold right now right Elite cuz a [ __ ] can do some disloyal [ __ ] to you and be faithful to you disloyal means failing to be loyal to a person or body to which one has obligations but loyalty Unfaithful but loyalty the word faithfulness is in loyalty what's what's lloy faithfulness in a steadfast face of Temptation renounced desert or betray see I'm getting a whole different what's name I don't know strong feeling of support or Alliance thank you that's what that that's Unfaithful is which one you looked up I think this sh Oxford yeah this Oxford I'm saying what's the name loyer you look up loyalty all right loyalty is what a strong feeling of support or Alliance so if you ain't broke the support of Alli or Alliance the alliance could be no the alliance could it's black the alliance the alliance could be that we ain't going to cheat I'm saying we go down that rabbit hole huh we can go down that rabbit holead but if someone does something the respect to make you feel betrayed then it violates loyalty and faithfulness what okay Faith that's all I'm saying of being fa yeah that's like say that's like saying just on some homeboy [ __ ] all right this homeboy always did everything right but then snitch who he told him you see what I'm saying though but but see it's different because like faithfulness is almost like crazy you know that way that's that's the new [ __ ] out here now like [ __ ] ain't told on me who he told on [ __ ] like that's the new [ __ ] that [ __ ] crazy and what's [ __ ] is disgusting I'm so glad I'm so glad I'm a comedian y boy I ain't even got to worry about this [ __ ] I don't even give a [ __ ] about this [ __ ] like boy I'm so glad I ain't even like even cuz it's like man this [ __ ] different bro like I this [ __ ] just way different I never thought that I see today that this [ __ ] would be like you know what I mean [ __ ] R and just keep rapping and keep you know what I mean this [ __ ] crazy for real 2024 so that's why I'm so we I listen man and I always take the [ __ ] to weird space because my mind just be weird sometimes y'all my mind be weird sometime but you see how we create AI right it's Dam nck can can grow to be a life for because AI going to be AI like robots going to be able to make other robots right M it's like a birth go hold up hold up being H me out all right so that's that's basically not humans I guess we're humans not that's basically another form of humanity right if they if they just go to building [ __ ] they we got our own fact we building [ __ ] and they multiply multiply multiply right who's to say that another planet didn't make us and the same [ __ ] hold on hold on hold on let me let me get this off the same little little plug ups and [ __ ] we putting in them they just electric they could have found some [ __ ] like brains organs and all that it's the same [ __ ] cuz it's from a different planet right it's still got damn [ __ ] this uh this at the top [ __ ] this the hard drive no real [ __ ] though am I tripping we got a hard drive computer we got we got a whole our bodies are basically computers right yeah they work like them similar cars if you think about a car car got engine who [ __ ] huh who controls all that what you mean who controls it we probably ran nor Atlanta philosophy that [ __ ] making s though J yeah it ain't but it listen bro we so if AI run off right now who's to say Humanity didn't run off so how they ain't find us if they was in control of us I'm saying we we can we can find a them [ __ ] bucking with sticks and [ __ ] they they them folk gret them folk they [ __ ] they they what they is now I ever heard little Fishbowl Theory what's that basically like the aliens tray the humanity and they just watch us I believe need that bro fish bowl the like like like you know how you just go and look at the fish tank the fish don't know you outside that [ __ ] they don't know what's going on outside the [ __ ] so it's a theory where they say like aliens created us and they just monitor us they just watch yeah I believe they just be watching us and [ __ ] I feel like it's too many of us for that [ __ ] to be going on what bro listen but but but how many shit's on the game you play the game right now you play a whole universe a whole world this [ __ ] is a real world in the yeah that a making [ __ ] you put [ __ ] on your you D near in that [ __ ] I just did a virtual reality [ __ ] over by um by um how me and Shante and dating went that [ __ ] that [ __ ] is real when you put them [ __ ] on your body you DN there you in there yeah the metaverse all that [ __ ] I don't know I think I think is we even woke now go rabbit B even W like [ __ ] you dreams and [ __ ] feel so real now come back so many times for me every day like I think I'm glitched up but you right but listen I had a dream and woke up and had to realize I had kids and [ __ ] I had a dream that I felt like [ __ ] I had a dream that I felt like I was there for like three months like I was living a whole life and all kind of [ __ ] Apartments trapping and all kind of [ __ ] and I woke up [ __ ] I had to be like where the [ __ ] I'm at I thought this [ __ ] was fake I thought what I was at was fake and the dream was real not real [ __ ] yeah that when they say you tapping in you can't determine well you know black folk about to get piles and [ __ ] super piles and [ __ ] huh Black Folk about to get super piles and [ __ ] y'all a see that what's yeah boy they saying Black Folk DNA DNA about to unlock and all kind of [ __ ] about to happen boy I just want to be a to fly and [ __ ] super speed I do think the Matrix I do think the Matrix [ __ ] was real though I do think we plug in and plug out when we go to sleep and wake up can't tell me bro I know I know I be glitching bro I ain't the only [ __ ] glitching y'all [ __ ] just don't be keeping it real [ __ ] just be trying to act like it don't exist I see everything you know what I'm saying you cuz with that fish sandwich yeah man what we doing scream about right it's all good man we appreciate you pulling up the big facts you know what I'm saying let everybody know where they can tap in with you and what you got coming up man look man y'all can tap in with me on YouTube Facebook Instagram Tik Tok everything all the same JQ health is cerski GQ Health J us s t q e H3 FF man the kid that did man you know what I mean if you think only those who think like that think like that man so yeah there it is check us out. bfa.com subscribe like comment share all that on the bigf network salute salute	be a rapper right there I would do my [ __ ] online I wouldn't be at no open mics that [ __ ] dangerous yeah what I'm saying like [ __ ] like like you not going to gain no fans from that [ __ ] like I had a homeboy yes you are no you yes you are fans from what okay from from like open m stand up talk open mik rapping or you talking about stand up comedian stand up comedian I'm saying you make no money off no you might not make no money off of it but you like people will put your name with your face and it'll like help increase your family I agree that but well you got to get on the internet the internet no the internet is definitely over it but I'm saying touching the people is is going to make a difference also but most of the people outside [ __ ] but then what I say though like other crew y'all rapping my bad J y'all rapping other crew other open mic and you f then we got to get into it cuz you f yeah how this [ __ ] go comedian comedian okay we on the same show together [ __ ] mad at me cuz I just was funny as hell y that'll get you [ __ ] up real talk like cuz then they ain't going to want to put you on their	2	8	6	be a rapper right there I would do my online I wouldn't be at no open mics that's dangerous yeah what I'm saying like you not going to gain no fans from that	I had a homeboy yes you are no you yes you are fans from what okay from from like open m stand up talk open mik rapping or you talking about stand up comedian stand up comedian	2,4,6	1,2,3	2	4	6	1	2	3

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